Author Topic: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale  (Read 122319 times)

Online Kim

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Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
« Reply #810 on: November 23, 2022, 05:36:31 PM »
Let me share my appreciation for those pictures too!  The exploded view and the assembled view - very nice!

That's incredible that you could assemble it in 10 minutes!  It would take me WAY longer than that to assemble the parts!  You're fast!

Kim

Offline gadabout

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Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
« Reply #811 on: November 23, 2022, 08:51:23 PM »
Mr Vixen!
Looks superb!
Can it be inserted into the crankcases as is ? Or will you need to pull it apart and assemble it together inside the cases like the first one?
Mark

Offline Admiral_dk

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Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
« Reply #812 on: November 23, 2022, 09:36:10 PM »
Like Kim - I think it would take me longer to assemble (at least the first number of times) ...!!!

Love the 'Sequence Photos'  :Love:        :cheers:

Per

Online Vixen

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Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
« Reply #813 on: November 24, 2022, 01:22:54 PM »
Thank you all for looking in and for calling in.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: Your support is always appreciated.

Kim, Per, Mark, assembling the crankshaft may be easier than you imagine. There are only nine bolts to tighten, five on the main bearing centre line and four more on the big end bearing centre line. The dowel pins look after the alignment of each part.

In theory, it should be possible to simply lift the five main bearing caps and drop the crankshaft in place. However, I have found it was necessary to select the thickness of the four spacer shim washers to ensure the crank fits comfortable between the main bearing caps. it's all very tight in there, typically 10 thou either side of the caps.





Cheers   :cheers:

Mike
« Last Edit: November 24, 2022, 01:26:43 PM by Vixen »
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Offline Art K

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Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
« Reply #814 on: November 25, 2022, 07:34:06 PM »
Mike,
I have taken the holiday to get caught up on some reading and got caught up on your build. Amazing work on the crank build! I will have to file this away in case I have he opportunity to use it on a future build.
Art
"The beautiful thing about learning is that no one can take it away from you" B.B. King

Online Vixen

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Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
« Reply #815 on: November 25, 2022, 09:24:24 PM »
Happy holiday Art !!

The Schilling built-up crankshaft, using the intrinsic accuracy of commercial roller bearings for alignment, has a lot to commend it. It does appear to be a great way to build a long, slender, multi cylinder crankshaft. Provided you carry out the machining operations accurately, the final assembly is a quick and simple bolt together process. It eliminates the distortion uncertainties that you get from a billet crank, as it stress relieves itself post machining, or the distortion that inevitable results from a brazed/ welded fabrication.

The 'all roller' bearing (qty 12) crankshaft on my (V8) W165 requires more bolted sections than the roller/ plain bearing crankshaft in Steamer's (V12) Porsche 917 crankshaft. Dave was able to join pairs of his crank-webs with a hardened steel big-end shafts. This significantly reduced the number of components which need to be bolted together. Which can only be a good thing to do.

Our two crankshaft designs are quite different to look at; due entirely to the requirements of the individual engine we are copying. However, they both make full use of the teachings of Hubert Schillings in his book  "Boxer-, Reihen- und V-Motoren als Modell".

At one time, you could download a copy from   https://www.dropbox.com/sh/q8ijzp3h7kqr3fs/AAA_-bbREnB6pBcNP9EZXT1za?dl=0     it may still be there. The text is in German but the drawings contain all the detail.

OOPs, I just checked. It looks like the file has been deleted.   :'( :'(

Cheers   :cheers:

Mike

 

« Last Edit: November 25, 2022, 09:32:25 PM by Vixen »
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Offline Art K

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Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
« Reply #816 on: November 26, 2022, 05:40:45 AM »
Mike,
Apparently I jumped on that book when I saw it on line as I do have it as a PDF. My in laws were in from eastern Pennsylvania and we spent most of this week converting the storage room to a bedroom. Storage means stuff that moved in when we bought the house and has been stored ever since. Some of wha came out is gone most won't return.
Art
"The beautiful thing about learning is that no one can take it away from you" B.B. King

Online Vixen

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Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
« Reply #817 on: December 06, 2022, 08:42:35 PM »
Oil Pump Pipework

It's been a busy week in Vixen's Den. Lots done.

The second crankshaft, final assembly, has been completed. No new photos to add.

For the next major task, I decided to go back to pick up were I left off with the lubrication system pipework (way back in reply #375 to #377). All the oil pipes, and there are a lot of them, had been cut and bent to size, but had not been soldered together. Back then, I was quite happy to avoid that job, as  I was not sure how I would do the pipe soldering. A small, needle flame, gas blow lamp; perhaps? That did not feel quite right somehow. I could foresee all sort of problems with overheating and burned, oxidised surfaces, as I knew there would be quite a number of re-heats required.

The components and semiconductor chips, on modern circuit boards, no longer use the old fashioned soldering iron; instead they are flow soldered or hot air soldered to the circuit boards. So why not try to use a powerful hot air gun to solder together the oils pipes on the W165 engine?

I have a powerful (1800 Watt) thermostatically controlled hot air gun, capable of reaching 600*C, made by Leister in Switzerland. I has a number of alternative nozzles, including a very fine jet nozzle. 60/40 solder is made of 60% tin and 40% lead and has a melting point of around 190░C. Soldering Iron tip temperatures of at least 300░C are recommended. My heat gun can be adjusted to that temperature. I also have a supply of water soluble soldering flux, which makes post opp cleaning up dead easy without the need for solvent baths etc.

Here's the equipment:





The pipes needed to be soldered in situ. Obviously, the aluminium crankcase and oil pump body would create an enormous heat sink. Some sort of temporary insulation would be required between the copper and brass oil pipe parts and the aluminium engine parts. I decided to try thin card (my old business cards) between the smaller pipe flanges. For the larger oil pump end manifold, I removed one of the pump sections and replaced it with a wooden spacer of the same thickness.


Here you can see the first soldering opp. I started with the five main bearing pipes soldered into the oil pump end manifold. I found I needed to set the heat gun to 400*C to quickly heat the parts. The thin solder wire was applied into the work and when it was hot enough, capillary action drew the solder deep into the joint. You can see the wooden insulation spacer in the pump, became chard.






My second opp was to attach the four of the five flanges to the end of the thin main bearing feed pipes. Thin business card was used as the insulation, it could have done with being better; a lot of heat was lost.





Opp 3 and 4, soldered the flanges to the larger pipes connecting through the crankcase walls and the front scavenge filter bowl. Thin business card was again used as the insulation.







The fifth and final soldering opp, was to solder the three large diameter pipes into the oil pump end manifold. These joints were done one at a time and clearly show the advantage of doing solder fabrications with a heat gun. The adjacent joints did not get burned or oxidised, the solder joints could be made much neater than with a flame. also it was easier to re heat a joint, if required, to ensure full penetration was achieved.





Then the whole pipework assembly could be unbolted from the engine, the various insulation materials discarded before the flux residues were quickly cleaned off in hot water. Each joint was inspected and cleaned up where necessary.

Here is the finished pipework assembly








Stay tuned, there is more to follow

Mike



« Last Edit: January 11, 2023, 10:59:35 PM by Vixen »
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Offline crueby

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Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
« Reply #818 on: December 06, 2022, 08:46:08 PM »
Thats pretty impressive work!  I've never heard of a heat gun like that, very interesting heat source for the soldering.

The pipework looks a little like a tuba for an octopus, or a steampunk bagpipe!

Online Vixen

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Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
« Reply #819 on: December 06, 2022, 08:58:42 PM »
Thats pretty impressive work!  I've never heard of a heat gun like that, very interesting heat source for the soldering.


The Leister heat gun is a serious bit of kit (1800 Watts, 600*C). It kinda followed me home from work, when I retired. I gets used quite a lot, this is it's first attempt at solder fabrication.

Cheers   :cheers:

Mike
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Oh! sod the journey, lets hit the bar and pool instead.

Offline Admiral_dk

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Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
« Reply #820 on: December 06, 2022, 10:28:20 PM »
Great progress + result  Mike  :ThumbsUp:

I'm sorry for feeling that there's a flange 'missing' in the right side of the picture - but I think you would have mentioned it, if that is the case ....  :noidea:

The whole bit of 'Machine assembled PCB's' in our production is done with Reflow and we have one for prototyping too + a 'ReWork Station' - but I haven't used a 'Normal' HeatGun for soldering yet ....  :thinking:

If it was the Full Size Merchedes - I wouldn't have dreamed of using soft-solder - but I'm guessing that in the Model, it will never be hot enough for problems ....

Per             :cheers:

Offline steamer

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Q
« Reply #821 on: December 06, 2022, 11:01:30 PM »
I like that a lot Mike.   Question, is the oil flow to the mains "around" the bearings?  or "Through" the bearings?

Dave
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Damned ijjit!

Online Vixen

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Re: Q
« Reply #822 on: December 07, 2022, 05:35:52 PM »
Thank you Chris, Per and Dave for calling in. It's good to know that someone out there is still following this thread.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:



I like that a lot Mike.   Question, is the oil flow to the mains "around" the bearings?  or "Through" the bearings?

Dave

Dave,     Mist lubrication will always allow a roller bearing to spin easier and faster than a roller bearing filled with oil. For that reason, the lube oil supplied by a small low pressure pump, is discharged close to each the main bearing, not directly into them. The oil is immediately atomised into a fine mist, by the rotating crankshaft and rods. Two scavenge pumps, one at the front and another to the rear of the sump (oil pan) suck up any liquid oil than forms.


Great progress + result  Mike  :ThumbsUp:

I'm sorry for feeling that there's a flange 'missing' in the right side of the picture - but I think you would have mentioned it, if that is the case ....  :noidea:

The whole bit of 'Machine assembled PCB's' in our production is done with Reflow and we have one for prototyping too + a 'ReWork Station' - but I haven't used a 'Normal' HeatGun for soldering yet ....  :thinking:

If it was the Full Size Merchedes - I wouldn't have dreamed of using soft-solder - but I'm guessing that in the Model, it will never be hot enough for problems ....

Per             :cheers:

Per,  Well spotted. I have not yet soldered on the fifth flange. That one feeds the oil to the rearmost bearing cap; the one which supports the oil pump assembly. There is still some more work required in this area, before I can do that.

The development wiring shop, where I used to work, developed a technique to remove/replace surface mount chips using a similar hot air gun.

As for the use of soft solder; The 'Silver Arrows' of the 1930's were an interesting mix of the newest engine technology (for that era) mixed with some antiquated methods. Have a look at the two photos below of the original, full size engine, specially designed and built to win the 1939 Tripoli Grand Prix and lots of prize money. You would think they had hired the local village plumber to soft solder all the oil pipework. You can almost hear him pumping up his two pint kerosene blowlamp.







Here is my 1/3 scale version of those two photos:









And a view of the second engine. the crankshaft is not yet installed






Thats pretty impressive work!  I've never heard of a heat gun like that, very interesting heat source for the soldering.

The pipework looks a little like a tuba for an octopus, or a steampunk bagpipe!


Chris, don't get him going. I told Crash it is a lube-oil-pipe-a-phone. He is happily learning to play it and wants to be become a one man 'Oompah Band'.





Cheers     :cheers:

Mike
« Last Edit: December 08, 2022, 05:57:48 PM by Vixen »
It is the journey that matters, not the destination

Oh! sod the journey, lets hit the bar and pool instead.

Online Kim

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Re: Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale
« Reply #823 on: December 07, 2022, 05:56:41 PM »
Just beautiful work, Mike, as always!

And I love the picture of Crash playing his lube-oil-pipe-a-phone!  That's classic  :lolb:

Kim

Offline crueby

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Re: Q
« Reply #824 on: December 07, 2022, 07:03:34 PM »
...
Thats pretty impressive work!  I've never heard of a heat gun like that, very interesting heat source for the soldering.

The pipework looks a little like a tuba for an octopus, or a steampunk bagpipe!


Chris, don't get him going. I told Crash it is a lube-oil-pipe-a-phone. He is happily learning to play it and wants to be become a one man 'Oompah Band'.





Cheers     :cheers:

Mike
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Perfection!!


 

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