Help needed to identify vert steam engine

[vtsteam]

Hi all,
I just given this vertical boiler steam engine. It was said to have been in a fire, though after looking at it, I would say that it had an internal fire that flamed out the rear of the firebox vents before being put out. The rear vents are discolored. All of the base and other paint is intact (though well aged, and dirty) and even the nickel plated fittings and blued steel boiler cladding are undamaged. So I wouldn't say the model "had been in a fire." I'd say that it probably had an alcohol fuel spill flame up which was put out.

Anyway, I haven't found a maker's mark on it, and would appreciate help identifying it. The model is very nicely detailed, with a flyball governor, sight glass, bearing oilers, whistle, and what even looks like an adjustable boiler feed pump.

I doubt it will be restorable to working condition, particularly if it was over-fired, but we'll at least make a nice shelf model of it if it isn't.

[Michael S.]

It could be a Doll model steam engine.
Maybe you can find more information on the Internet under Doll steam engine with boiler. (  Doll Modelldampfmaschine mit Kessel )

Michael

[vtsteam]

Thank you Michael, that looks very similar in a lot of the details, though also different. I'll look for those online.

BTW, in my lower photo, you can see the "flamed" rear area of the firebox grate -- really not much discoloration there. And the boiler feed pump, just above that area has its red paint un-discolored.

[vtsteam]

I've looked at the Doll engines I could find, definitely similar.

But I think this might be a brand called Carette -- also from Nuremburg.

Here's one that is nearly identical in almost all features. Definitely the base casting and also its paint job. The main difference I see is the firebox has no vents, firebox door is different, and mine has a boiler feed pump. Other than that everything else seems to match. Mine has an intact sight glass and the bluing is quite good on the boiler.

https://www.peters-toysteam.se/Carette_677-2A/en/index.htm

[Michael S.]

Hello Steve,

There is a lot of connection with the tin toys from Nuremberg. I suspect the individual manufacturers used many parts at the same time. And put together the pieces for different customers with different budgets. The valves and pipe, water level and cylinder.

Greetings Michael

[Michael S.]

Sometimes things look worse than they are. I could imagine that not all parts of the engine are defective.
The boiler base is almost always made of sheet steel and rusts.
The boiler could be leaking. Maybe it got too hot and the solder seam is open.
The valves are a real problem. The cone is riveted and they can no longer be moved. The glass in the water level is still there.
I would carefully take everything apart and carefully remove the rust and then decide what can become of the engine.
If not with fire and steam but perhaps with compressed air.

[vtsteam]

Thank you, Michael! I will do as you say. Definitely take everything apart and determine it it's at all feasible to get it working again. I'm fine if it isn't possible, though it would be great to see it run again some day.

I noticed that on my engine the steam feed pipe valve is very loose and cocked over on top of the boiler and the top plate is slightly dented there. It obviously got whacked at some point. The whistle also is loose and bent to the side in the top plate.

Okay, I've just unscrewed the whistle. These top fittings are threaded into the plate. I'm surprised that the plate isn't very thick, so there isn't a lot of thread for them.

The top plate also has two screwed in plugs. Presumably for additional optional fittings, water filling, and/or for testing with pressure. These threads are perfectly intact.

I'm trying to imagine how the steam valve and whistle could be functionally attached again. Attempting to silver solder anything would destroy the boiler -- at the very least it would ruin the bluing of the shell.

The only thing I can think of would be drilling and re-tapping the present holes for a larger bushing.

Or I suppose the smaller plug could be removed and the steam valve fitting screwed in there -- that would necessitate rerouting the steam pipe. Then the left-over hole would need to be plugged.

BTW, I do have a boiler test water pump I made a few years ago, and gauges.

[Michael S.]

The brass from the boiler still looks good.
I remember from similar discussions in a German-speaking model building forum that the threads on the steam boilers of the toy steam engines from Doll, Falk, Märklin and Co have very special sizes. Maybe you can find a suitable tap for a repair. In the picture it looks like 6 or 8 mm?
You should be able to unscrew the safety valve. It also has a thread. The threaded bushings are very thin.

Michael

[john mills]

Hi
I have one similar to repair it does not have a feed pump  but the problem is the sight glass i a bent piece of glass tube which is intact
but it seals to the boiler are rubber bushes with i have not found suitable replacement they are well and truly perished.
John

[vtsteam]

The brass from the boiler still looks good.
I remember from similar discussions in a German-speaking model building forum that the threads on the steam boilers of the toy steam engines from Doll, Falk, Märklin and Co have very special sizes. Maybe you can find a suitable tap for a repair. In the picture it looks like 6 or 8 mm?
You should be able to unscrew the safety valve. It also has a thread. The threaded bushings are very thin.

Michael

Hi Michael, the whistle threaded portion measures just under 5mm dia.
I count 6 complete threads in 4 mm of length. I'm not sure what that works out to for metric pitch. I'm guessing .667 ?

[vtsteam]

Hi
I have one similar to repair it does not have a feed pump  but the problem is the sight glass i a bent piece of glass tube which is intact
but it seals to the boiler are rubber bushes with i have not found suitable replacement they are well and truly perished.
John

O-rings won't work?

[john mills]

No O rings wont work the part where the glass goes is quite thin the original was soft rubber a stepped bush possibly 6-8mm long through only the sheet
metal shell of the boiler with a small metal clamp plate to help hold the bush in .
  John

[vtsteam]

John can you freeze a piece of suitable rubber and turn/sand a stepped bush while cold?

Or make a plaster of Paris mold using a turned wooden pattern and pour a silicone bush?

[vtsteam]

This Carette engine is nearly identical with mine, except for the fact that it has reversing gear, and there is more black paint on the lower portion of the cast iron base. The bottom legs on mine are red.

Otherwise the base casting is the same with the base ring and little decorative hold down fastener nubs and the four larger functional bolt down bosses. The boiler feed pump is the same, with the same two screws to adjust its position, every other detail of the cylinder, valve works, bracketry, piping is the same.

Missing parts for mine, shown in the photo, are all the valve handles, and the adjusting weight for the safety valve.

So I do think mine is a Carette engine.

[Jasonb]

I wonder if the worn/damaged holes could be drilled out and a boss fitted with something like JBWeld as it will take the pressure and heat that is likely to be seen at the top of the boiler and would avoid any possible damage from soldering.

Handles could be done from Ebony, look at pen turners for small square section lengths or a plastic like Corian would also machine up nicely. Weight should be easy enough to make.

It does look to be a variant of the one you show, I expect they offered it in various options and the reverser was the next option up from yours. I have wanted to make one of these boilers complete with engine for some time but not sure when I will get round to it. The Ernst Plank "Excelsior" is one I like the look of the engine or I may go for the type that has the crankshaft at the top of the engine supported on two columns.