Model Engine Maker

Engines => From Kits/Castings => Topic started by: Jo on September 25, 2015, 06:14:48 PM

Title: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on September 25, 2015, 06:14:48 PM
A tale of three two or maybe only one engine  :-\

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/triple_1_small.jpg)

Engine number One:

In 1992 we were exhibiting at the Brighton model world exhibition. I had recently acquired a set of Stuart No 10 castings with a broken stand (£5 :naughty: ) and had laid it out on a board so people could see the sort of thing we make our engines out of. As one does  ::) I felt the need to go and look for the bargains. All the club/trade stands were upstairs but down stairs were a couple of traders who hardly anyone had noticed… On this stand selling paint (so it could have been Precision Paints) there was this cardboard box with £20 written on it with some Iron castings in it. I had a look  :whoohoo: it was a part set of Stuart castings for their triple. Ok no drawings and no bronze bits  :-\

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/06070003.JPG)

Castings in hand they were taken up stairs and added to our display table  when Lady luck walked by again and a very nice gentleman saw the broken stand on my 10V and we got chatting. The long and short was he had a spare stand for the 10V and the drawings for the triple which he would lend me :pinkelephant:

On closer inspection the Iron Castings were short of the two valve chests and covers  :( There they sat in the back of the casting cupboards for many a year, every now and then coming out for a fondle  :)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on September 25, 2015, 06:16:57 PM
Engine number two:

Some of you will remember me from my days on the MECH. In Jan 2011 one of the members Adrian Parker had been asked to sell a gentleman’s casting collection to fund his medical care  :'( In amongst many nice stationary engines and a set of Superba castings  ;) was a part set of triple castings.

Adrian and I exchanged a couple of Emails and we agreed on £1 per casting including delivery from Italy. In May the courier (Adrian and his brother Dave  :mischief:) dropped off these:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/DSCN1060.jpg)

So two orphans together could make one whole engine :whoohoo:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on September 25, 2015, 06:24:05 PM
Number three (http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Sad/sad-021.gif)

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_9764.JPG)

I wonder what story these engine parts would tell if they could speak, I suspect it would go something along the lines of :-

“Many years ago someone was inspired to build a steam engine, not any old steam engine but something really special a triple expansion engine. So he brought an expensive set of castings from a company called Stuarts.  Sadly no one warned him that it is not a beginner’s engine. So he started making bits on his lathe and using his hand files (as he did not own a milling machine they were luxury items back in those days). There were so many pieces that had to be the same but that wasn’t easy… one thing led to another and in the end he lost heart and put them away in the box on the shelf in the workshop.

When the family was being helped by Dad’s friend to clear his workshop the box was lifted down and the parts of the engine found again. They told the friend tales of how this was Dad’s pride and joy they can remember him showing them each piece when he made it but then it went quiet and they had not seen anything of it for years.  Remembering his friend’s passion for the engine so he offered to take it on and finish it.

Getting it home he realised that it would have to wait in line, behind that locomotive and all the other things he was building.  So again the box was sat on a shelf, the drawings were lost, until it was in turn passed on a few more times. Along the way each new owner had a little play, a little fiddle adding more unique features until in the end it remained sat in the box in the drawer for over a decade.”


That was until its last owner asked for an opinion: We agreed that it was not good enough to be sold on, at best it is has the potential for salvage. As I already have one to make I will be making up all the jigs, setting up the machines maybe I could save it….  And you all know I am a sucker for Orphans  :shrug:  :toilet_claw:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on September 25, 2015, 06:28:50 PM
I shall look forward to following the development of your Triplets Jo even though one does seem to have quite a handicap.

J

PS I wonder what happened to those Superba castings :)
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on September 25, 2015, 06:46:19 PM
even though one does seem to have quite a handicap.

 :-[ Yes lucky 3 is riddled with challenges a few examples I have found so far:

The base was machined without trying to centre things so the column holes are not equally spaced, neither are the bearing stud holes, if you look at where the clamp goes on top of the bearing you can see that the surface is flat on one side and profiled on the other. The holes have been made oval to match the oval holes in the cylinder mounts  :facepalm2:

The columns are each a different length.

The eccentrics and rods  :Doh: I had never seen eccentric straps cut on the slant before. The holes for the pins are not central and the forks  :( Not sure about the sheaves until they come apart.

The connecting rods are a little rough (I have been told Stuarts are stingy with their material  :ShakeHead:) The bearings where the bolts go through are a bit thin.

The flanges on either sides of the cross heads are not even  :headscratch: Which could imply all sorts of problems.



And to think this was once someone's bundle of joy  :paranoia:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Stuart on September 25, 2015, 06:58:57 PM
This looks like a lot of fun , plugging up holes regaining correct positions , but when done they will be things of beauty

Jo I have confidence that you will succeed , got a supply of popcorn and coffee in for the journey


Have fun , I am sure Mr Silky and Mr Sexy will be up to the chalange

Stuart
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on September 26, 2015, 06:45:09 AM
The good  :)

The bad  :(

And the ugly: that will need sorting out  :facepalm:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on September 26, 2015, 07:18:46 AM
The good pile looks a bit small :(

Are you assuming the pistons have been drilled and tapped true and concentric to the outside :thinking: and that they will still fit if the cylinders need reboring and Honing ;)
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on September 26, 2015, 09:13:37 AM
The pistons were a bit rough running up and down on those old piston rods probably something to do with someone squirting oil down the valve ports and pushing some of the remaining sand into the bore  :Doh: And the CI is also a bit coarse so a quick hone would probably be useful when I get there.

The bits for this last engine are now de-gunged and overall as long as I don't try reusing anything out of that bag  :hellno: I think Lucky 3 may yet come to life.


For now both of them will have to wait as some points turned up yesterday  :whoohoo:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Roger B on September 26, 2015, 09:30:39 AM
Some interesting challenges  ::)  :ThumbsUp:

Points? railway, ignition or other?
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on September 26, 2015, 10:03:15 AM
Thanks Roger,

Points? railway, ignition or other?

They are for Kitti and Kiwi :)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: sshire on September 26, 2015, 12:33:13 PM
 As if building one from untouched castings isn't enough, the "fixes" look to be quite fascinating. Looking forward to that.
It seems that slitting the eccentric caps on that angle must have required some thought.  ;D
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on September 30, 2015, 07:48:27 AM
I've started going through the drawings for these engines. I have access to a number of sets of drawings and in places the dimensions are different   :thinking:

I am going to start up with the rash assumption that the later measurements are the correct ones  ;) 

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Stuart on September 30, 2015, 08:01:12 AM
Jo

You know what assume does 😈

Do not assume a drawing until it is proven , I have a set one the drawings in part are drawn in a strange format called unasembleium (tm)

Good luck with the conundrum


Stuart
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on September 30, 2015, 08:16:14 AM
Its possible the drawings were altered to suit smaller castings, if your castings are old they may have had a bit more meat on them.

Only safe way will be to draw it all out in Cubify, you can then also incorporate any adjustments that may be needed to recover those butchered castings eg increased bore, longer standards if the base needs a skim, etc
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on September 30, 2015, 09:12:56 AM
Modifications found so far:

Lengths of the tops of the columns parts 23 & 24 shortened.

Between holes length of Eccentric rods shortened (was 44.45mm now 42.07mm)

Piston rods and connecting rods remain the same length  :headscratch:


I have never seen so many 5BA/7BA fasteners on a model and all the fasteners are missing from all of the casting sets  :(

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Stuart on September 30, 2015, 10:44:55 AM
Jason

Have you tried Fuson360 , you can assemble parts ,animate them, and produce paper drawings

And the best it's free to hobbyist

If you are into stress analysis it will do that as well


Not bad for nowt

A handy feature is you can cooperate with others to evolve the design

Stuart
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on September 30, 2015, 01:32:22 PM
Stuart, I already have Alibre PE and am happy with that, does all thos ethings except stress analysis. There was quite a bit about Fusion360 on ME forum a few months back but at the time you could not print 2D drawings from your 3D parts, good to see thats available now.

May look into it if I have to change computers as my Alibre is out of date now but then I would not be able to open the drawings I already have.

Good news about the fixings Jo as it will allow you to make them all from stainless rather than try and clean up a load of old rusty ones and I'm sure the nominal length Stuart studs would not measure up to your exacting standards.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on September 30, 2015, 01:58:14 PM
Not bad for nowt


:o Who have you been talking to I paid good money towards engine set three: it was a BOGOF  :naughty:


As for drawing package: I have cubify which is backwards compatiable with Jason's Alibre  ;).


Jo

P.S. I remain to be convinced if acquiring engine set three was a good or bad idea, I am expecting to regret it  :(.

Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on September 30, 2015, 02:08:38 PM
I think Stuart wa srefering to Fusion costing Nout.

As I said to you last week, I hope the person with the castings paid you to take them away :ROFL:

J

PS will you be adding reversing gear to one or all of them?
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Stuart on September 30, 2015, 02:16:33 PM
Jason

thats correct software no Jo's hardware ( does that sound pc )


Stuart
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on September 30, 2015, 02:26:15 PM
PS will you be adding reversing gear to one or all of them?

Reversing gear is a standard fit on the triple  ;)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Alan Haisley on September 30, 2015, 03:37:43 PM
Jo,
The harder it is to correct engine #3 the more pride you can take in the result. I'm sure that all of us believe that you will succeed. There is a LOT here for me to learn and I am so looking forward to it.
Alan
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on September 30, 2015, 05:46:10 PM
Thanks Alan  :)

I am still trying to get my head around the long term future of these engines. Normally I like to keep all of them  :embarassed: But I rather can't see the point of keeping two Stuart triples  :shrug:

Maybe my Mother would like one but if I gave her one I know it would get polished to death  :paranoia:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on September 30, 2015, 06:36:27 PM
Per a previous PM, perhaps you could mod one up and give it to your sister  :mischief: :naughty: :stir:.

Big E
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: sshire on October 01, 2015, 12:03:44 AM
Your sister sounds like a sweetheart
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on October 04, 2015, 08:47:28 AM
I'm still looking for suitable "bung" material for those random :Doh: fastner holes in lucky 3's base. CI is only available in sizes over 25mm diameter and I am not looking forward to the mess from turning that stuff down to make 4mm to 6mm plugs  :ShakeHead:

I managed to acquire  :naughty: a dozen 1/4" soft Iron rivets but was not sure if they would be suitable.

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Stuart on October 04, 2015, 08:56:55 AM
Jo

Part a bit off a say 6mm slice and hacksaw it to a couple of square strips then turn those down just a thought


Stuart
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on October 04, 2015, 10:05:07 AM
1+ for what Stuart suggests, much like cutting that insulating material into squares on the Kiwi. If you have some quare or rect CI block then just use your power saw to slice some off.

Alternative is to open out the holes quite large so the new hole will only fall into the filler material and then it does not matter what you use as the drill will not wander towards the softer infill.

Although your rivits are soft iron they are more like wrought/mallable than cast
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on October 04, 2015, 04:28:27 PM
Another useful source for thin Cast Iron is to chop up a casting, I'm sure you must have a spare one or two knocking about ;)

Something like this base from my Galloway that did not get used has provided a couple of valve chest covers and could easily be cut into squares for turning into plugs.

Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on October 06, 2015, 07:50:25 PM
Strangely enough I found a gash casting that was destined for a better life that is being made into plugs  ;)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on October 08, 2015, 05:29:13 PM
 :thinking: Two Sole plates.

The first job is to see what we have. The upper pencil measurements are the new casting, the lower Lucky 3's. Initially it does not look to bad. Ignoring that horrible, horrible bit where they took the bearing boss off on the outside of the sole plate which will be hidden behind one of the reject eccentrics  ::)

Part of the problem with those crank fastner holes is that they put them on 19mm centres instead of the correct measurement  :-\

Once you add the datum lines it is obvious that the biggest problem by far is that the crank bearing holes have not been machined square to the casting and one end is 1mm out of line with the casting :ShakeHead:

It is looking like a case of plug the horrors and leave them while the Loctite sets good and solid :).

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on October 08, 2015, 05:44:52 PM
So whats the plan of attack?

Mill along all four bearing housings to straighten them up to fit oversize bearings, then at the same setting drill for the keeps and standards off the new centre line.

I won't ask if the holes in the cylinder match either the drawing or existing base holes ::)

Did you just plug the wonky holes or bore out the whole boss and set in new plugs to the proper co-ordinates so the holes end up central to the boss
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on October 08, 2015, 06:08:00 PM
Take some more of this medicine  :wine1: and hope to get some sleep so that I start to feel a bit better so that I can safely make swarf again  ::).

Then the plan is to do the bungs as I mentioned ;)

Just started to look at the cylinder  :facepalm2:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on October 08, 2015, 08:10:23 PM
So the cylinder isn't horrible. It has at least one tapered bore :Doh: All the bores need honing. The screws holding the two cylinder halves together have been inserted the wrong way round but that won't be seen once the cover is on...

Its those nasty randomly placed holes for the columns  :stickpoke:. I don't want to loose too much metal so I am half tempted to open them out a little and make a sort of combined sleeve/washer and JB Weld them into place.

As for the crankshaft: it is not as straight as it could be  :ShakeHead: I was thinking of trying to machine the crank both using the forged casting and a piece of round bar. Sadly it looks like I might be forced to do just that  :-\

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on October 09, 2015, 02:12:34 PM
 :thinking: The underside of Lucky 3's base has been levelled in the same way I was told to do mine and needs a shim under the corner.  That is not going to be clever when it comes to clamping it down for machining.  And it doesn't fit well between the Tee slots on my Mill: it will probably need a jig  ;)

Clamped securely a pointer was used to indicate the casting square.

Then using the datum lines (see previous drawing) the fastner holes were milled out to 5mm to a depth of 8mm.  :-\ Well four were  :( the other four still had the thread showing in the side of the hole so had to be taken out another .5mm. Which then meant that the holes fell through the side of the out of line bearing holes  :facepalm:

The holes for the pillars were drilled using a 7mm three flute cutter and then the casting turned over (yes it rocks  :disappointed:) and counter bored to a depth of 1.6mm at 10.5mm diameter. This will stop the slugs being pulled through  :ThumbsUp: and give a nice flat surface for the nuts to clamp against  ;D

Which just leaves me with a little bit of easy turning to fill the holes. If you notice all are over length and will stick proud of the casting.

 :thinking: I am tempted to go and mill the underside flat all the way along on both sides. Let me go and look at the drawing...

Edit: I cheated and looked at photo's of other engines and yes all of them have milled both sides flat  ;)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Stuart on October 09, 2015, 02:38:56 PM
Good work there Jo

should this thread be retitled as "Resurrection and Reuse"  :cartwheel:


Hope you are feeling better now you have had your fix of Fe to bolster your haemoglobin levels


Stuart

Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on October 09, 2015, 02:50:14 PM
Looks like that large dose of  :wine1: lastnight did the trick

If its still upside down I think I would be tempted to skim the bottom pads flat, that way it will be nice and solid when up the right way so you can skim off all the tops and protruding plugs to one level, a reference cut along the sides will be usefull too.

You asked me the other day what to put on your list to Santa, maybe this would fit in your stocking?
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on October 09, 2015, 03:29:23 PM
Thanks Stuart, sadly I have what they what they call a 100 day cough and I am only on day 35  :(

I've had a little skim. It had to be with a carbide tool as it had a few chilled spots  :ShakeHead: So both sole plates now have their bottoms flat.

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Stuart on October 09, 2015, 03:55:56 PM
100 day cough eh

by ek thats a lot of hacking and barking

Gran used to swear by a mix of red onion slices steeped in brown sugar ( not tired it )

but this should do the trick but only if you like garlic ( no cosying up but castings are ok as is Mr Sliky )

this is the stuff
https://www.theindependentpharmacy.co.uk/medicines/cough-cold-flu/cough/liqufruta-garlic-cough-medicine/

but this is not bad ether but a bit more sociable
Gees linctus is the stuff but its a bit fierce on the palette
https://www.medicines.org.uk/emc/medicine/25267
boots sell it


I am not talking about casting hard spots had to ask the local foundry to put one though their Lear to sort it donation to the beer fund duly made not its like butter

Stuart
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on October 09, 2015, 04:46:31 PM
Gran used to swear by a mix of red onion slices steeped in brown sugar ( not tired it )

I could try that: I grew red onions this year. I like onions  :)

( no cosying up but castings are ok as is Mr Silky )

:hellno: I had a couple of offers over the last few days to give me a chest rub claiming it would help but I was not convinced that I would be the one that it would make feel better  :ShakeHead:

As they say: Nothing ventured, nothing gained (except the chest rub :hellno: I'll stick to the  :wine1: and the casting fondling)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on October 10, 2015, 03:32:45 PM
Hi Stuart, I tried the crunchy raw red onions. I did seem to feel better this morning  :) I was told today of my grandmother's cure which required you put two whole raw eggs (in their shells) in vinegar and sugar. I think they mentioned putting it in the fridge  :headscratch: You then waited for the vinegar to dissolve the egg shells, then whisk and bottle it for use. I have decided that it is better as I don't know the amount of vinegar or sugar that I give that one a miss  ;)

The holes are all plugged. The CI is held in with Loctite 601, the BMS with 601 on the main shafts and JB weld around the flanges and to help form a curve around them. They are all now sitting in the warm to set.

This will be the last post in this thread for a while. I needed to get the base ready and the bungs in place so they have plenty of time to go off before we come back to these engines in a few weeks  ;)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Stuart on October 10, 2015, 05:17:03 PM
Happy to be of service ma'am 😘


Stuart
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on October 10, 2015, 05:35:36 PM
Dearest Jo, I know you think my modeling skills are not to be considered genuine,  however,  when it comes to staying healthy without spending moths to support the Drs. country and hunting club dues,exotic sports cars, and the wife's "uplift surgery" I resort to natural treatments.  Try treating yourself as if you were diabetic for a week or so,  bacteria feeds off of sugar.  The crap in your lungs is nothing more than concentrated bacteria.  Simply,  just stop feeding it. It may not cure you, but,  it will help.

Big E
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on October 10, 2015, 07:14:37 PM
Dearest Jo, I know you think my modeling skills are not to be considered genuine,

I don't know what I may have said to make you think that way but what ever it was I apologise I did not mean it to be taken in that way   :-[

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: ths on October 11, 2015, 12:47:02 PM
Jo, that's a really good recasting! Cheers, Hugh.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on November 08, 2015, 05:50:59 PM
Having had another look at the columns that came with lucky 3 I have decided that they too can go in the scrap bag. It is easier to use the new pieces of 8mm bar that came in the unopened Stuart Casting box than to try to rehold the original parts and correct them :disappointed:

And I found that the set of 8 columns I had already made for Engine no 1 are to the old drawings and will need to have the lengths of the threaded parts at the end reduced  :-\.

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on November 09, 2015, 12:02:45 PM
I have been trying to work out what would make an appropriate mounting for these engines. Most models seem to have been mounted on the brown stuff  :paranoia: Then I started considering if they should be mounted on a pair of Steel I beams  :thinking:

Does anyone know how these engines were normally mounted in full sized :noidea:

Jo

Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: steamer on November 09, 2015, 12:11:03 PM
Stringer frames......probably riveted to the frames, or keel.

Achiem should have some examples........  8)

Dave
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on November 09, 2015, 04:43:36 PM
I suppose a lot depends on what scale the Stuart one is, to me its based on quite a small engine so maybe 1/6th scale which would mean its not going to look right if mounted on something out of a 200ft hull, more likely to be found on a river boat or large launch.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on November 09, 2015, 07:58:19 PM
The joys have started: To machine the soleplates I could not hold them in the same way that I had previously I needed to clamp at the sides to allow the bearings to be clear for machining but  :facepalm: the sides lined up with the tee slots for clamping  :disappointed:

So a flat piece of recyclable steel was found, cut in half and two clearance holes drilled in each to enable them to be clamped using the Tee slot bolts. Then I needed very short clamps so I could pass a large fly cutter over all the faces at once. Luckily I had made a set of clamps for the Cowells face plate a couple of years ago and they proved to be just right and the pointy clamps fit nicely in the small nooks and crannies around the rear of the soleplate.

2 hours later  :facepalm2: The soleplate from Lucky 3 has been clocked in as we are ready to make swarf  :paranoia:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Don1966 on November 10, 2015, 12:59:36 AM
That's cool Jo, I like that very intuitive.

 8)

Don
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on November 10, 2015, 07:39:16 AM
Looks like you could do with a mill that has a bigger table Jo ;)

Would it not have been possible to mount the casting front to back rather than side to side, I think the Harrison should just have enough Y axis movement for machining that.

J
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on November 10, 2015, 07:57:07 AM
Looks like you could do with a mill that has a bigger table Jo ;)

 :embarassed: I remain hopeful

Would it not have been possible to mount the casting front to back rather than side to side, I think the Harrison should just have enough Y axis movement for machining that.

I did look at it but the power feed is on the X axis and I am planning to use it to give a nice finishing cut


I am still looking at engine mountings, so a few I have found:

1, On a piece of angled brown stuff
2, An a home made "cast base"
3, On a piece of holey Channel.
4, On a home made square girder
5, An engraving of an engine on a more decorative girder
6, The original Stuart display engine

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on November 10, 2015, 08:05:57 AM
Which reminds me: grub screws in the side of the flywheel  :hellno:


Stuart's drawing shows the flywheel mounted in place with a 2BA grub screw, drilled through at 90 degrees from the lovely polished outer rim. I had noticed that their show engine does not have this  :) But if you look at a few of the engines above others have done it and then felt the need to put other holes around the engine (I assume they are implying that they are baring holes on a triple expansion engine :noidea:)


My temptation at the mo is to stick them on with Loctite  ;)


Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Steamer5 on November 10, 2015, 08:20:14 AM
Hi Jo,
 Just because I want to see how its done, I'll plug for a cross section of a hull, blinged up like Johns diorama of course !! :stir:

Now ducking for cover & glad I live a long way way! ( except it makes it expensive to come see all the fun industrial steam you have!)

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: wagnmkr on November 10, 2015, 10:50:03 AM
I would vote for one of the fancy girder mountings, like pics 3, 4, or 5. I also second the idea of a diorama since you have two of these engines. If you did a part of a hull then you could stick to metal and not have to work with much "brown stuff".

Tom
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Edward on November 10, 2015, 11:08:46 AM
I've swum around a fair few big marine triples out in the channel and they are pretty much all bolted to steel frames of the ship or to a bed attached to the frames. I'd go for an arrangement of framing. Luckily for you, triples aren't common in wooden hulls:)

I've always had a hankering for a marine triple, mounted in a scale half-model of a hull complete with a nice thrust bearing box, prop shaft and prop mounted under a lovely counter stern with rudder etc. Bit beyond my skills at the moment but if I ever do, I have a lovely chunk of bearing bronze (about 10kg of it) 'recovered' from the valve gear of a wreck off the coast of Devon to make the bearing surfaces out of! Nothing like a bit of re-cycling!
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on November 10, 2015, 04:17:58 PM
Jo is there any spare metal on the fluwheel hub, if you go with a grub screw then make the hub a bit wider and drill it in at an angle. I'd put a key & keyway in myself.

If you decide to go with the brownstuff then get your order in early for delivery in a couple of weeks. Might have some metal C section Knocking about also or box that can be split. I quite like the blue one with the circular holes
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on November 10, 2015, 08:10:15 PM
I agree a key way would look better.

I started the evening by checking the depths of the bearing slots. Yes 0.5mm difference  :facepalm2: Which told me what I was playing with. With that knowledge I could take a 0.6mm skim across the top.

Drilling the column holes started off with a broken drill :slap: that was then drilled out using a carbide drill. Thankfully the remained drilled ok  :)

Then it was time to set the height of the milling cutter with a bit of "fag paper". Take the cutter to depth and take a first pass on the zero line to full depth. As you can see the original slot was well off line  :disappointed: The widest gap was fag papered to find that I needed a 1.3mm offset to kiss the offender and both sides of the slot were milled with a 1.3mm centre line offset. As a result the slot is now 15.3mm instead of the original 14.3mm  :shrug:

Using the same 12.7mm end mill I slid the cutter down the side of each bearing housing at a distance of 11.9mm to leave the required bearing housing widths. Thankfully all were over sized except the one that had no over hang left which at least was on dimension.

So the first sole plate is machined  :whoohoo:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on November 10, 2015, 08:28:28 PM
Time for the second plate. This time I am not constrained by someone else's unique features but can make the most of the casting. So first line up on the bosses to find a potential centre line. Then check against the outside of the bearing supports.

Then measure the distance from the centre of the datum boss centre line to the outside of each of the bearing supports. As you can see the same bearing support is a bit thin on the original casting as was very tight on lucky's soleplate  ;) So choosing the least worse point for the centre of each bearing the datum is decided on.

I think we are ready to go again  :)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on November 11, 2015, 10:47:39 AM
I keep looking at the drawings of this engine and trying to understand why people keep telling me that the triple is a difficult engine to build. These comments are beginning to trouble me in case I have missed something   :noidea:


I am assuming that the challenge is getting three cylinders timed and all the bits the right length to fit together: so why should it be any more difficult than making a three cylinder IC engine  :headscratch:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on November 11, 2015, 01:18:06 PM
The initial aim for machining the top surface is to get below the skin but to leave as much of the casting as possible. Yes that means that I will have to use my fag paper again later to set the height of the cutter before I mill the bearing slots and thinking about it, it is probably better to make the bearing slots the same size on both engines i.e. the 15.3, so that I only need one jig for boring the bearings.

Having measured the depth of the slots in the bearing supports they were found to be 12.7mm below the top surface which is the finished depth. I want to keep as much of the casting as possible so initially I tried a cut of 0.5mm and found that three of the pads were still down and there was a mark on one of the pads  :( Having dropped the cutter another 0.4mm it skimmed them all but also one of the mounting screws  :Doh:

The main mounting holes have been drilled and I have taken the centre slot to depth I just have to make that final decision if I should cut it at the correct measurement of 14.3mm or at the same as the other engine 15.3 so that I can use the same jig  :thinking:

I also need to think about the mounting for the air pump. It has a 19.05mm hole with a tapered bottom. Luckily in amongst my hoardings of second hand milling cutters I found what looks to be the ideal cutter  :naughty: Now I just need to decide if I can get away with using it as a big drill or if I should bore it first to the 9.53 depth  :thinking: After that I will worry about the feed pump.

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on November 11, 2015, 01:29:34 PM
Well the guy that started it before you obviously found it difficult :LittleDevil:, its all realative to what experiance and equipment the builder has. If they have only made a 10V before and don't have a mill then its going to be more difficult than for somebody who has made lots of working models and has a suitably equiped workshop.

The crankshaft is the other part that would likely cause some people problems as it needs to be nice and straigh and freely rotating.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on November 11, 2015, 02:29:02 PM
Yes the two crankshafts done using different techniques will be interesting machining jobs and in my experience a crankshaft  doesn't have to have three throws for it to end up a funny shape  :Lol:

I'm still worried there might be something I have missed  :noidea:

Jo



Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on November 11, 2015, 03:41:03 PM
I am feeling cheated  >:( I was looking forward to a nice lumpy forging to make one of the crankshafts out of. What I have found is a length of smooth 11.1mm bar with centres already in the ends with three bits of bar pinned and what looks like silver soldered into position  :disappointed:

I wonder, having been heated, if it will run true if I put it between centres  :thinking:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Stuart on November 11, 2015, 04:02:07 PM
keep at it Jo

them cranks look lumpy to me though

when i made mine it was the valve gear that caused me problems , but with the modern cad software to model it it would have been easy to sort

Stuart
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on November 11, 2015, 04:12:20 PM
Does not have to run really true as they have left the main bar well oversize so there will be plenty there to allow for any movement that may have taken place. Main thing to check is how well the ctr holes have been drilled :-\

Have you overlooked the painting, that may be difficult :mischief:

What are you going to do about lagging? maybe one with wood and one with sheet metal would be a good way to do them.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on November 11, 2015, 04:30:45 PM
Thanks for the heads up Stuart. Are the drawings wrong? Or are they just a pain to machine. Please tell me they are not as bad as some of the Anthony Mount castings from you know who  :facepalm2:

Jason the centre holes are ok  :) A couple of bars ends slid over the ends to provide the centres should do but by the time they slide all the way up to those webs you will nearly need as much bar as you would need to make the crank from scratch  :(

Painting  :Doh: Lets not worry about the lagging just yet  ;)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Stuart on November 11, 2015, 04:39:33 PM
Jo

mine was a Reeves set

it was just impossible to get the gear to fit

but on the whole not as bad as AM :ROFL:

but now i model all valve gear up its quicker

Stuart
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on November 11, 2015, 07:28:07 PM
Numero uno's sole plate proved to be a lot thicker on the webs than lucky as you can see on the bearing supports widths before and after machining. In the end I decided to leave the bearings at the 14.3mm width and adjust the tooling accordingly for the bearings when I make them.

There is only one unique feature on Numero uno's soleplate, I will let you see if you can spot it  :facepalm2:.

It is already time to start on the fasteners, maybe a bit of engineer's lubricant is needed to help :drinking-41:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on November 12, 2015, 06:19:40 PM
Quote
There is only one unique feature on Numero uno's soleplate, I will let you see if you can spot it


I suppose it depends on if the water pump holes have been drilled in the wrong place or if the pump base is cast out of position on the lower casting with red marks.

Looking at the column holes and bearing second from the right it seems that the casting may be a bit off and that the holes have been drilled to drawing to place the pump inline with the middle cylinder in which case the base casting will want adjusting by removing material from one side and building up on the other.

If its a case of the main hole and the three fixings being drilled out of place then they will want filling and redrilling which would ideally have been done at the same time as the other holes to save having to set up teh casting again.

EDIT or is there a hole in the bottom of the air pump, can't quite make it out from the photo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on November 12, 2015, 07:32:13 PM
EDIT or is there a hole in the bottom of the air pump, can't quite make it out from the photo

Caught  :lolb: It has been plugged and JB Welded.


Lucky's original crank bearings are now too small so I need 8 new bearing sets. In Numero Uno's I have eight halves and this bit of locomotive axle box casting has volunteered to be the other set (and one for the Workshop Gnome  :ShakeHead:)

Lots of machining one side, hacksawing, more milling and finally soft soldering the halves together I have 9 possible bearing sets. They will be much smaller when they are finished.

Work finished early tonight as I had to prepare my portable 3 ph power supply for a day out tomorrow  :mischief:

Jo


Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on November 12, 2015, 07:37:37 PM
I keep looking at the drawings of this engine and trying to understand why people keep telling me that the triple is a difficult engine to build. These comments are beginning to trouble me in case I have missed something   :noidea:

Maybe that difficult bit is avoiding drilling through the bottom of the casting :stir:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on November 16, 2015, 08:41:11 PM
 :ShakeHead: Its getting  :ShakeHead: so repetitive  :ShakeHead: 9 bearing blocks carefully taken down to size.

First squaring everything up and marking the sizes, black once to size, red as oversized surfaces. Held in the vice jaws using a post-it to prevent the soft as Swiss cheese piece of gunmetal being marked and only tapped down on the parallels using a good ground surface between the work and the Thor mallet  ::)

Finally nine blocks ready for the next bit of machining, again carefully marked up to avoid machining the wrong surface  ;)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on November 17, 2015, 12:13:49 AM
Coming along nicely.  Now,  if you are gonna be "Momma Hen" , let's not complain about the number of eggs in the nest  :stir:..

Big E
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on November 17, 2015, 06:17:21 PM
I think that might be thanks Big E  :noidea:

 ::) The next stage on the bearings is to do the long edge: Why? Because both sets of bearings are 16mm high and need a slot 1.6mm deep cut in the top. So there is no confusion each time is to the same depth.

We also know that the bearing housing is 11.1mm wide so by setting up the milling cutter in the Y axis so that it leaves a 2.45mm ridge you can clamp the Y axis in place. Clamp in the vice and cut down one edge, turn the metal round clamp and cut down the other edge. The resulting fit is a nice fit that will just hold the bearing on top of the housing when held vertically.

Halfway: too and fro  :ShakeHead: too and fro  :ShakeHead: Now for something very slightly different  :-\

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on November 17, 2015, 06:44:14 PM
Jeez,  just think about all the studs and nuts  :facepalm: to come.

Big E
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on November 17, 2015, 08:23:01 PM
 :o Mr Silky has been trying his best to cure me of my desires for studs and their nuts  ;)

The bearings have slid in so I need to think about line boring next. :drinking-41:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on November 17, 2015, 08:37:57 PM
I wonder if line boring is needed? As you have got all the bearing housings dead in line and all the bearings are exactly the same it may be easier to set the bearings up in the mill with a vice stop and take them all out to say reaming size and then just ream them in place, did that with the Tidman's three bearings. Its going to be quite a long slender boring bar if you do line bore them, could be a case of Mr Whippy.

J

PS as you seem to have enjoyed making 9 bearings I have just e-mailed you regarding a 9-cyl radial kit up for sale :naughty:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on November 22, 2015, 04:18:51 PM
So back on the mass production  :-\

Each of the columns has a short 4BA threaded section on the end. This is best cut before doing the 4mm parallel shank as if you dies are as good as my whirlwind dies they will think nothing of continuing to cut beyond where they should cut . It also means you will get exactly the same number of threads on every end  ;).

I started off using the nice well oiled BMS bar stock that came with the second triple to make the columns out of then I realised that this was a waste of shiny 8mm bar stock and I had some alternative with that brown protective coating on it that I could use instead. So I have managed to get one end ready and made the brass centre for the next bit  ;).

Jo

P.S. I seem to have brought more orphaned triple castings ::). I am not sure what to do with them yet. I will post photo's once they arrive.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Roger B on November 22, 2015, 04:29:12 PM
That's a lot of bits  ::)  Turret/capstan lathe as the next purchase?  :stir:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on November 22, 2015, 05:08:11 PM
::)

Someone is trying to off load a pair of Schaublin 70's on me  :-X

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on November 22, 2015, 07:06:49 PM
 :headscratch: I've been looking ahead at some more of the castings:

The three eccentric castings look to be identical and one of them should have 120 degrees between the lobes and the others 150 degrees. But looking at Lucky 3's eccentric it is the shallower angle that has been split. Could someone tell me which cylinder should be have the smaller angle and which two the other angle? I think that they might have split the wrong eccentric.

It is best not to look at Lucky 3's eccentrics  :ShakeHead: each eccentric surface is a different diameter so these too are going in the bad bag  :(.

The next question is would it be easier to make all of these using steel bar rather than start messing around with that one set of castings  :thinking:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on November 22, 2015, 07:44:06 PM
The HP, IP and LP on the drawings should tell you which eccentric goes with which cylinder ;)

Id use the raw castings for one and new steel or CI bar for the other, the ones that have already been made will probably not be to drawing or fit well
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on November 22, 2015, 08:00:41 PM
Parts 25, 26, 27 are identified in the parts list as "eccentric sheaves". They are sat on the drawing  :facepalm: spotted it hiding in plain sight .

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on November 23, 2015, 09:47:14 AM
In looking at how I might machine these eccentrics I have discovered that Tubal Cain in his Workshop Practise Series book No 28 "Simple Workshop Devices" has detailed a fixture for machining these double eccentrics and also for boring the crankshaft bearings for this engine  :).

Now I just need to decide If I want to use his technque for the bearings on the lathe or continue with my intended way using my mill  :thinking:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on November 23, 2015, 10:22:16 AM
I'd just work them on the end of a length of bar that way you have plenty to hold in the 4 jaw and can easily get at the back side.

Face the end and mark out the ctrs, do the two eccentrics then the boss and bore last so you don't loose your marking out
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on November 25, 2015, 01:27:18 PM
The other ends of the columns have been machined so it is time to start on taking the centres to size/shape. I have opted to leave the top and bottoms angled rather than curved, I can change it later if I want.

Working between centres with that piece of brass providing a female centre on one end, not too deep a cut so as to avoid the metal flexing and cutting a fish belly. Now its back to  :ShakeHead: to and fro  :ShakeHead: to and fro  :ShakeHead: at least there is power feed in both directions at the flick of a switch 8)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on November 25, 2015, 07:58:39 PM
One side down plus a third of the other side. The brass centre is working well. The Lunzer is trying to confuse me  :ShakeHead: you cannot see it turning and it does not get warm even after 3 hours at 2000 rpm  :)

The technique I am using to set things up is to roughly work out the distances on paper then do a shallow cut of 0.5mm to find the correct distances, out with the pen mark each end and then let the power feed take the tool up so that it just wipes off the pen. Back off a little put on another 0.5mm cut and then power back the other way  :)

The metal for these last sets of columns is so much nicer to cut than the first set out of my recyclable pile  ::) but really I should have made them out of 303 stainless  :shrug:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on November 26, 2015, 05:55:56 PM
Triple number 4: I couldn't leave them like that they have been somewhere damp and they have got a little rusty :( they clearly need a bit of fondling to let them know that they are wanted and that there is someone for every casting  :Love:

Decision time  :noidea: I might regret this  :lolb:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Twizseven on November 26, 2015, 06:18:17 PM
But I'm sure you will get bored, by the time you've built 4 of them.  Surely you can find someone else to fondle them.

Colin
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Alyn Foundry on November 26, 2015, 06:32:03 PM
Good evening Jo.

Good to read they reached you in several pieces apart from the base!! :)

Kind regards, Graham.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on November 26, 2015, 07:16:47 PM
About time you added a grit blaster to your workshop  ;) or chuck them in some brick cleaning acid and see what comes out.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on November 26, 2015, 07:23:05 PM
Thanks Graham, I promise someone will love them  ;)

There are  a few interesting bits in this "set": There is an odd bronze hand wheel, a few over sized glands, a spare piston just under the LP size and the crank blank is for a slightly bigger triple  :headscratch:

So as Colin mentioned, the decision is do I make the two or three triples. Yes I know it is missing a very major component but the word is out, so a third engine is yet a possibility :embarassed:

Jo

P.S. Graham you seem to have kept the HP valve chest cover (no problem it is just a bit of CI the steam pump has a nasty bucket cover  :paranoia:)  I'll find another bit, Who ever buys the steam pump might be confused   ;)
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Alyn Foundry on November 26, 2015, 07:56:19 PM
Dear Jo.

Oops,  yes indeed, in fact I have two!!  HP and IP covers, I mistook them for flat bar stock. I would have expected to see an S or Stuart cast into them.

I will send them on in due course.

Re Stuart steam pump set of early vintage, all Gunmetal castings anyone interested? I'm an IC kind of bloke.  ;)

Kind regards, Graham.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on November 26, 2015, 08:24:48 PM
Thanks Graham  ;D the triple is boring it is just an empty circle.

That steam pump is interesting challenge with those two pieces cast as one.. I think Stuart should rise to the challenge :LittleDevil:  But it would have to be at the right price he is a pensioner ;)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Alyn Foundry on November 26, 2015, 08:43:13 PM
Thanks Graham  ;D the triple is boring it is just an empty circle.

That steam pump is interesting challenge with those two pieces cast as one.. I think Stuart should rise to the challenge :LittleDevil:  But it would have to be at the right price he is a pensioner ;)

Jo

Dear Jo.

Stuart's not the only one ! Since my near fatal heart do I have been pensioned off. Life's a bit tough with another 8 years until state pension time.

Hey ho......

Kind regards, Graham.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Chipmaster on November 27, 2015, 08:50:48 AM
Hello Jo, I also bought a Stuart Triple project a few years ago without seeing it in advance because the deal was struck via a friend and the price was very low.
The engine is very stiff to turn over and I haven't done anything with it yet. I don't know whether it's worth trying to resurrect it. It's certainly not pretty, the workmanship looks dubious and there appear to be a few departures from the plans that were included - two sheets that state they were issued 14th September 1966.

Have a look at these pictures, I reckon someone bit off more than they could chew. what do you and other MEM folk think of it, is it viable ?

Andy
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on November 27, 2015, 09:14:12 AM
Hi Andy,

To do that one you will be on a similar journey of discovery as I am with lucky 3. You need to start by taking it apart and doing some measurements.

If you paid similar to what I did for lucky 3 it is worth a try; already with it I am beginning to think that (ignoring the Ugly bug bag  ::) ) that 3 is further ahead than my own engine.

Jo

P.S. You have a few stray parts in there which are not part of the triple.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on November 27, 2015, 10:58:57 AM
As a result of the required fondling many of number 4's castings have proven to be made of Cast Iron rather then just rust (don't ask what colour my hands are   :embarassed:)

So what do I do with number 4  :thinking: is it soon to be known as number 2

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Roger B on November 27, 2015, 12:08:22 PM
Andy, much the same as Jo says, dismantle it and check for serious deviations in any major castings/components (if anything is too far gone Jo seems to have a few spares  :stir:  ). The rest should be fixable.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Alyn Foundry on November 27, 2015, 01:05:47 PM
As a result of the required fondling many of number 4's castings have proven to be made of Cast Iron rather then just rust (don't ask what colour my hands are   :embarassed:)

So what do I do with number 4  :thinking: is it soon to be known as number 2

Jo

Rust? I thought it was Red oxide primer!!

You should have no problems machining them as they have been normalising for many years.

Now having seen Andy's engine and noticing that the IP & LP cylinders are cast as a pair how is the steam brought to each cylinder in succession? This is not my area of expertise and I'm sure others would find an explanation useful too.

Kind regards, Graham.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on November 27, 2015, 01:08:38 PM
The flanges on the sides of the cylinder are a clue to how the steam gets from one to tother - bit of bent pipe ;)

From the HP end you have a small hole where it enters the valve chest, exhaust from the HP goes through short pipe to IP inlet, Exhaust from IP goes through long pipe to LP inlet and finally exits on teh far side of the LP cylinder

(http://www.stuartmodels.com/graphics/products/cache/s_360_420_70.jpg)

Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Alyn Foundry on November 27, 2015, 04:01:41 PM
Dear Jason.

Many thanks for the photo of a very nicely finished engine.

So the joint between HP & IP cylinders is also the steam chest ?

Kind regards, Graham.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on November 27, 2015, 04:39:15 PM
Rust? I thought it was Red oxide primer!!

It was red and an oxide  ::)

So the joint between HP & IP cylinders is also the steam chest ?

The steam chest for the IP cylinder is part of the HP casting.


The columns are done and  :headscratch: I seem to have a spare set

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on November 27, 2015, 04:44:53 PM
I spy something else red in the photo which I'm sure you like more than rust ;)

Are you bringing them along tomorrow for a family outing?

J

PS Graham, it snot my engine, its the one from Stuarts site.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on November 27, 2015, 04:56:11 PM
That is engineer's lubricant  :wine1:

I was going to bring one engine. The triples are not that interesting yet.

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Stuart on November 27, 2015, 05:26:38 PM
Jo

I see that fluid should be aired and at room temp before use , but I thought it was only a finishing product to be applied after the machi Ning has been done  :LittleAngel:

Stuart
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on November 27, 2015, 06:40:04 PM
Evening Stuart, I just tested the viscosity and I think it has had long enough to normalise  :naughty:

I have been wondering I have seen a couple of boats/ships which have two triples driving the prop but how do they combine the power?

Jo


P.S. In mentioning "boats" I mean the above surface type  ;)
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on November 27, 2015, 07:53:09 PM
Do they have one prop or a prop for each engine which makes them more manoverable?
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Roger B on November 27, 2015, 07:55:55 PM
There are various versions I have seen. Herringbone gears to avoid end thrust are quite common, but must be quite difficult to make. With the amount of engines you have a four screw liner should be on the plans now  :)  :stir:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on November 27, 2015, 08:04:52 PM
Do they have one prop or a prop for each engine which makes them more manoverable?

The two engines are at an angle to each other :headscratch: and join onto one prop :noidea:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on November 28, 2015, 08:15:06 AM
 :thinking: I have been examining the cranks: The crank blank that came from Grahame is the one at the top, it is longer, of a larger diameter, the webs are bigger in all dimensions than the Stuart blank just below it and it goes the other way round  ::).

However if we assume that having the throws clockwise or anticlockwise arranged (I still need to think about the eccentrics  :noidea:) is going to make no real difference to the engine running then a bit of jiggery pokery would mean that a triple crank could come out of that odd crank blank.

Then there is Lucky 3's crank  :facepalm2: I have not checked it for squareness but the two inner bearing surfaces are about 9mm instead of 9.53  :( So, if it is square, I could machine two bearings for the smaller size or I could make another crank blank and make another.


The possibilities of another engine being able to be built is getting higher as I am promised someone will bring along one of John Bertinant's old casting sets of a compound today.  :headscratch: I thought John upgraded the Reeve's Triple not the Stuart one.

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on November 28, 2015, 04:12:57 PM
Engine number 5  ::) Ok so this is not actually a Stuart triple but it was a compound that John Bertinant intended to build based around a Stuart IP/LP cylinder block. He has cast the additional castings that would be needed to make it a stand alone engine without the HP cylinder, i.e. the valve chest and the cover but no one has been able to find the drawings for it  :-\

So having been fondled they too have chosen to join the casting orphanage :embarassed: and I still have to answer the question: Do I build two or three engines?

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Roger B on November 29, 2015, 07:10:17 PM
Do I build two or three engines? As a minimum. A pair with angled herringbone gears would be a good challenge  :)  :stir:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on November 29, 2015, 08:07:12 PM
Strangely enough we were discussing those yesterday  ;).

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on December 07, 2015, 08:13:53 PM
I'm pleased to report the air pump bodies have been turned  :)

A couple of challenging bits including missing measurements  :-\: drilling the eight holes in the lower flange at an angle was a interesting, especially holding it  :ShakeHead: 

I discovered that someone had cut the top thread on lucky three's pump with 7/32" whit  :headscratch: when it should be 7/32" by 40 ME, it is fixed now and is the right thread again. The valve and nuts were also knocked up before I remembered a glass of port was going flat  :wine1:

Pump cover next.

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Allen Smithee on December 08, 2015, 11:22:43 AM
 :pics:

 :stir:

AS
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on December 08, 2015, 11:26:23 AM
 :facepalm: Shouldn't have opened my big mouth.

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Allen Smithee on December 08, 2015, 12:59:47 PM
 :stickpoke:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on December 08, 2015, 01:55:44 PM
No one else spotted and you only mentioned it after I had said something to you  :LittleDevil:.

And I have an excuse:   (http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Computer/computer-17.gif)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on December 08, 2015, 07:25:59 PM
A little test of my new computer: for those who are interested the missing photos from yesterday's swarf making session  :embarassed:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Stuart on December 08, 2015, 07:33:02 PM
Of course we are interested ma'rm


Stuart
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on December 08, 2015, 07:38:03 PM
Lovely man  :embarassed:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Roger B on December 08, 2015, 07:47:23 PM
Good, so at least three engines  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp: Still following along  :wine1: (to go with yours  :) )
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on December 08, 2015, 08:08:34 PM
Jo did you just reset the casting in the 5C to do the other 4 holes or do you have a cunning way to index the 8 holes?

J

PS New 'puter seems to be working OK
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on December 08, 2015, 08:21:08 PM
Jo did you just reset the casting in the 5C to do the other 4 holes or do you have a cunning way to index the 8 holes?

If you look carefully you will see that the collet block didn't move and there are indexing lines around it  :naughty:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on December 08, 2015, 08:40:52 PM
So you just loosen and rotate the collet, indexing a slot against the mark? Is this standard on 5C blocks as I don't have any (yet)
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on December 08, 2015, 08:52:37 PM
No all 5C collets are keyed  :facepalm:. Four of the angles are given by the four screw holes, the other four are mid way between the mounting holes, so a line made with a sharpie on the side of the large diameter for each gives the eight indexing lines. So you loosen the collet and rotate the piece in the collet to line up with the line on the collet/block and lock it again ;)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Admiral_dk on December 08, 2015, 09:05:41 PM
Quote
And I have an excuse:   
   (damm - your "nice" emoticon didn't copy).

Is that the reason you needed a new computer ????
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on December 08, 2015, 09:22:40 PM
Is that the reason you needed a new computer ????

No it had a hardware failure all on its own (http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Computer/computer-18.gif)



Now I have a new one: (http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Computer/computer-20.GIF)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on December 09, 2015, 08:19:21 AM
Hi Roger  :drinking-41:

Good, so at least three engines 

Only three and even doing those might make me go squiffy  :embarassed:

I do have some spare flanges for a Stuart 6  :headscratch: and hopefully Graham will have sent through those missing covers in time for when I machine the cylinders  :thinking:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Steamer5 on December 09, 2015, 10:18:02 AM
Hi Jo,
ALL computers should come with a LARGE hammer to sit on the desk alongside them  :killcomputer: just to remind them who's boss!
Do you find that the proximity of iron improves  :wine1: ? I've noted that you allow the wine to "breath" in the iron enhanced air on several occasions & fear that many of us may be missing out  :wine1:  :ROFL:!

As usual enjoying the journey with you as "find" what's hidden within the casting & other bits of steel / brass

Cheers Kerrin

PS Hope our UK members are ok given the weather reports seen here!
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Alyn Foundry on December 09, 2015, 01:44:07 PM
Hi Joe.   :)

What's with the E ? North of the border it would be Graeme!

Your castings have made it to a Jiffy bag, it's a bit hectic here ATM getting ready for Christmas.

Kind regards, Graham, without an E.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on December 09, 2015, 03:39:41 PM
 :-[ Sorry Graham,

Things are a bit hectic here as well: they are still trying to get my computer to work right  :ShakeHead:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Bluechip on December 09, 2015, 03:41:04 PM
:-[ Sorry Graham,

Things are a bit hectic here as well: they are still trying to get my computer to work right  :ShakeHead:

Jo

Try Schmooing the core ....  :old:   :lolb:  :lolb:

Dave
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on December 09, 2015, 05:07:38 PM
I've gone off computers  :paranoia:

I did get to make a bit of swarf at lunchtime: The tops for the air pumps are another casting made of gunmetal i.e. they they mark with the slightest opportunity  :(. So first we need a datum, on lucky 3 someone turned the outside from two ends an there is a clear line showing  :disappointed: So I chose to do it differently  ;)

First turn the bottom and bore the inside. Then having made a nice tight arbour it can be superglued in place for the top to be turned.

But it did not get far before work got in the way.

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Stuart on December 09, 2015, 05:12:44 PM
:-[ Sorry Graham,

Things are a bit hectic here as well: they are still trying to get my computer to work right  :ShakeHead:

Jo


Jo
Is there not a big X on the side were you have to give it a clout to show it who's boss :pinkelephant:

Don't know what spec of gunmetal that is so soft and gummy but it's a real pain in the rear

Stuart
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on December 09, 2015, 07:28:28 PM
 :-\ Ok so the very nice man from Microsoft proved that it was my internet provider's fault not my nice new computer.... Something to do with their email server being out of date and not being compatible with Windows 10/Office 2016  :noidea:

Sadly as I had to resort to the engineer's lubricant to keep sane :wine1: there will be no swarf making tonight, I will have to content myself with a little fondling and stroking of something desirable  :embarassed:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on December 11, 2015, 01:03:43 PM
So quick before I have any more computer challenges... out to the workshop  :paranoia:.

The next stage of the top covers requires that they stay glued to the mandrel and mounted in a 5C Collect block with the flange square (done by drawing a line across the top of the points of the flange and using that to square up  ;)). The centre of the work can be found by zeroing on the outside of the block, then the holes for the gland drilled 2.1mm for the 7BA tapping size. Using the wonder of the DRO the four mounting holes are positioned in the right place and drilled the clearance size.

Then the block can be turned over and the threaded hole for the pipe added. 1/4 BSF being the required 26Tpi. Removal from the arbor can be done with a little heat and then twist as superglue has little twisting strength.

Whoever did the one for lucky 3 missed that the hole in the side is not in the mid point of the cover but slightly towards the bottom so it breaks through into the recess and not partly the solid inside which will push the drill sideways  :-\

Last one of these to go then we can think about the flanges :)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on December 11, 2015, 02:34:50 PM
So the Stuart drawing for the flange is not very well dimensioned: It does not tell you the outside dimensions of the flange  :ShakeHead: This is where having a drawing tool helps to find out what might be in proportion  ;) The two 7BA holes are 10.3mm apart, and we know that a 7BA nut is 5.1mm across the corners, it is so unsightly to have our nuts hanging over the edge  :hellno:

The one and only flange I have would let 12.7mm come out of it but that looks a bit chunky when you project it down to the bits around the nuts  :( So if I allow 6.35mm lands around the nuts and reduce the 12.7 a bit to make it less chunk. I might have the missing measurements  :)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on December 12, 2015, 03:13:06 PM
I looked at the casting that came for the glands a number of times and decided it would be too much like hard work and I would still need another 2. At one of the shows I picked up some gunmetal test bars which were cast for the purpose of testing the materials during destruction testing. I care little what type of gunmetal I use for the glands only that they seem to be the same colour as the bit they are going into :)

The embryo gland had its shaft turned to be a nice fit in the cover, reamed for the spindle and then parted off leaving the top at the correct thickness. There mounting screw holes were coordinate drilled and two bushes 6.35mm diameter with a 2.5mm hole through the centre made.

About this point I discovered when I wired up the new 3 phase socket for the BCA I had wired it up in reverse  :facepalm: so having safely disconnected the supply two wires in the 3 phase plug were swopped over, power reconnected and I was ready to go  ;D

The covers with glands could now be mounted on a rotary table using the threaded hole on the outside of the cover being used to square everything up and the shape milled, not forgetting to turn the rotary table to get all the angles at 30 degrees off of square.

They need a bit more polishing but another part done  :drinking-41:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Dave Otto on December 12, 2015, 07:47:11 PM
That's a nice looking trio Jo.

Dave
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Roger B on December 13, 2015, 07:38:21 AM
Good things come in threes  :)
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on December 13, 2015, 08:04:26 AM
Thanks Guys. that cover/gland was one of those that it took as long to set up for one as to machine all three.

Not today I am still tired but over the Xmas break I hope to start some of the more interesting bits  :cheers:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on December 16, 2015, 07:23:11 PM
Crankshafts  :thinking: I have two options:

1, Use the made up crankshaft that came with numero uno's casting set and that  :headscratch: strange one that came from Graham but I am short of one  :-\
2, Or my supplier thought I was a masochist and would want to turn them out of some 50mm diameter off cuts of EN24  :noidea:

I decided that as the EN24 could also be used for my Gypsy, my Cirrus and still have a spare bit  :naughty: I would try the made up cranks first. But that means I need another made up crankshaft.

The finished crank for the triple is very thin 9.5mm and that means very flexible  :paranoia: the Stuart made up crank has been made in an inferior size of 11.1mm that I don't have any spare of but there is no reason I cannot use some modern metric stuff so some 12mm came out of the come in handy drawer. You will note I have not used any of that stuff with the brown protective coating as it needs to be nice and clean for silver soldering later and I don't want to have to turn its entire length so that I can clean the bits up to slide on the crank webs. The three webs are another matter and are recycled from something that I measured wrong on a previous build :facepalm2:

The webs were cut to 16mm thick by 25.4mm by 29mm and then bored to be a nice fit on the 12mm bar but loose enough for the silver solder to have space to run ;)

The 12mm having had centres put in the ends was mounted up in the dividing head with all three webs on it, then starting at the far end the webs and the crank drilled 3.2mm and some copper rivets stuck in as locating pins turning by 120 degrees each time the three cranks were located.

Then the webs had to be removed and under each web well coated with Tenacity flux. Tenacity is a high temperature flux normally used with stainless steel but it can also be used with normal steel and copper and lasts lots longer. The other trick to do jobs like this is to make sure you use a big enough torch: The work needs to get hot quick, dancing round the handbag for minutes on end worrying it will just kill the flux :Doh: Unlike normal fabrication this time I am using lots of silver solder. Normally I would minimise its use as it saves cleaning up after but you don't want to have to reheat this  :hellno: Each reheat provides an opportunity for it to warp .

So it has been silver soldered together and it is now slowly cooling down while I write this up  ;)

Must be time to go and have a little look  :naughty:

Jo

P.S. Graham I will be doing the cylinders over Xmas so it would be handy to have those covers  8)
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Roger B on December 16, 2015, 08:22:05 PM
Looks to be a good solution to me  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp: I have only ever machined crankshafts from solid material  ::)
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on December 16, 2015, 08:27:02 PM
Thanks Roger, 

I have just tested the new crank by try to tap out each of the rivets: all are nice and secure so I am confident the penetration was good  ;D

Now I need two ends that I can use to provide the missing centres for each of the pins

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Roger B on December 16, 2015, 08:30:03 PM
You need your Hemingway quick set Keats for that  :)  :stir:  :stickpoke:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: zeeprogrammer on December 16, 2015, 11:16:38 PM
I will have to content myself with a little fondling and stroking of something desirable  :embarassed:

Seems I'm never in the right place at the right time.  :paranoia:

BTW how far from Manchester are you?  :naughty:

I haven't posted much...but that doesn't mean I'm not watching.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on December 17, 2015, 07:18:13 AM
Thanks Zee,

BTW how far from Manchester are you?  :naughty:

 :( Too far.

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Alyn Foundry on December 17, 2015, 05:18:42 PM
Crankshafts  :thinking: I have two options:


Jo

P.S. Graham I will be doing the cylinders over Xmas so it would be handy to have those covers  8)

Dear Jo.

Gone in first class post today......... Fingers crossed !!

Regards, Graham.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on December 17, 2015, 05:55:25 PM
Thanks Graham  8)

Looks like I will be trying to finish the crank and the cylinders on my holiday  :cheers:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on December 17, 2015, 06:36:17 PM
Hey Zee if it's any help, I'm 4036 miles from Manchester  :Doh:

Cletus
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on December 17, 2015, 06:53:44 PM
Hey Big E; You could bring over that casting set that Stan was going to pick up for someone :mischief:

Do you like curry?  :naughty:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: zeeprogrammer on December 17, 2015, 07:55:14 PM
if it's any help, I'm 4036 miles from Manchester

I'm sure it helps a lot of people. ;D

There's a good chance for a trip or two to Manchester next year - job related.
There is no question I'll have curry.

"And I'll walk 500 miles..."
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on December 18, 2015, 09:21:05 AM
I've been toying with the challenge of getting the centres for the three cranks in line. Traditionally with a normal bit of bar you hold it in a vee block and mark it out then drill for the centres. But I have three cranks, they are no likely to want to be held in a vee block  :disappointed: and they will need a collar added to put the centres in. So how would you line the centres  up  :headscratch:

Looking through my come in handies I have some  :o rather large hex one of the smaller bits is 41.28mm A/F. So I was thinking I could put the centres in that then clamp them on the ends of the cranks using grub screws having first used a square to align one of the cranks with one of the centres.

This may yet prove not to work but if you don't try  ;)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on December 18, 2015, 01:19:09 PM
The ends of each crank were turned down to 10mm diameter for 25mm to match the turning jigs. And then the waste in the centre crank was milled out on the first crank.

So three cranks ready to go, two turning jigs and 10 spacers for supporting the gaps once turned. The hex ends proved to be able to line up the crank nicely (once I remembered which way up to clamp them  :facepalm:)

Starting with the centre pin (while we still have maximum support) crank turning has commenced  :paranoia:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Roger B on December 18, 2015, 01:59:15 PM
Looks good  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp:  10 spacers  ::) one for the swarf gnomes?
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on December 18, 2015, 03:34:28 PM
Thanks Roger, yes one for the workshop Gnome. Once he knows I am thinking about him he hides away and is less likely to pinch things  ;)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jim Nic on December 18, 2015, 03:38:11 PM
Brilliant Jo!  I've been following along from the off and managed to keep up so far but the hex bar had me  :headscratch: a bit.  A picture's worth a thousand words and I see it now.  Obviously I need a more comprehensive "come-in-handy" box if I'm ever to reach your standard.  ;)
Jim
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Alyn Foundry on December 18, 2015, 05:56:38 PM
Thanks Roger, yes one for the workshop Gnome. Once he knows I am thinking about him he hides away and is less likely to pinch things  ;)

Jo

Dear Jo.

Did the system work? Are you in receipt?

Re your Gnome.

We have an entity we call Fred. Yes, Fred in the shed!!

My workshop was recovered from an old shippon, the property we live in is now 325 years old.
Fred seems to always be a step ahead as things both appear and disappear depending on the situation.

On one occasion a marker pen we were using disappeared, we spent ages looking, then turned around to find it standing vertically on the table of the Denbigh universal milling machine.

Experience has taught us not to think too hard about a scheme as invariably anything associated with the project will disappear. On the other hand tools needed will be almost ready to use..... Just depends on the mood he's in.

Kind regards, Graham.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on December 19, 2015, 07:56:35 AM
Thanks Jim  ;)

Not yet Graham hopefully today :)


It must be workshop time, only another 8 7 crank pins to turn .

Jo

Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on December 19, 2015, 10:53:44 AM
The first crank shaft proved to have a dry joint so I need to make another  :Doh:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on December 19, 2015, 12:41:24 PM
Hi Graham the covers have arrived  :cheers:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on December 19, 2015, 01:22:16 PM
The first crank shaft proved to have a dry joint so I need to make another  :Doh:

Jo

Why does that never happen on the first pin, only the last?  :headscratch:

Hope it did not fly too far when it let go :-\
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: kev on December 19, 2015, 04:02:58 PM
Yep and you never find a problem till you have invested an few hours in the job :)
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Alyn Foundry on December 19, 2015, 07:03:22 PM
Hi Graham the covers have arrived  :cheers:

Jo

Dear Jo.

Good news, better late than never, must be the time of year.

Re. Tenacity No 5. Probably the best flux in the world !!

There's a rather nice offer on eBay UK ATM. I got a kilo just recently. It works so well with Iron and Steel keeping that unwanted oxide from forming long enough to allow the solder to run.

Kind regards, Graham.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Bluechip on December 19, 2015, 09:11:34 PM
The first crank shaft proved to have a dry joint so I need to make another  :Doh:

Jo

Ah, bu99er ... shame that !!

Intrigued to know what grade of solder you used and whether you had a capillary gap?
I tried to do a similar thing about 2 yrs. ago and could not get the wretched thing to hold not no-how ..  :rant:
Then I half remembered someone knurling the shaft, anointing with flux and then solder. ( IIRC I used the relatively low temp '440 ).
This leaves a lot of gaps for the solder. That did work. Not that I have any significant talent for silver soldering.

If it's any consolation, you are not the only one having a ' Ohferchrissakes' moment. I  managed to pull one of the secondary tails off some £50 squids worth of toroidal transformer earlier.  :zap:  :facepalm:  I will have a poke at it tomorrow when I'm hopefully in a better frame of mind.

Meanwhile    :DrinkPint:

Dave







Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on December 20, 2015, 08:43:18 AM
Thanks Guys  :)

Dave I am using some old easy flo 2.

Another shaft has been assembled so its back to the bonk, bonk, bonk to turning the pins. I did wonder about milling round each pin before turning to cut down on the bonking :thinking:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Stuart on December 20, 2015, 08:50:34 AM
Jo

Easy flo 2 is not aggressive enough for steel neither will it hold up long enough during the heating

You have some T5 so why not use


'Bonking ' now there's a thought from the past  :slap:


Stuart
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on December 20, 2015, 08:58:44 AM
Hi Stuart, the Silver solder is easy flow, the flux is Tenacity no 5.

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Stuart on December 20, 2015, 09:40:50 AM
Sorry Jo

Mea culpa  :facepalm: :facepalm:


If we do not communicate have a good Xmas and a prosperous new year with plenty of swarf making and casting collecting

Ps how is the BB1 doing

We have had a panic on the cooker has bust so it's a pain in the rear to get a new one delivered in time or it may be time to spit roast the bird with a blow lamp ( must check to see if I have some paraffin and a nozzle pricked )

Have fun and be safe

Stuart
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on December 20, 2015, 10:01:49 AM
Thanks Stuart, best wishes to you and your family.

I am not allowed to say anything about those castings I am looking after for father Xmas and there has been no fondling :hellno:

My BB1  :embarassed: you will get me in trouble  :facepalm: Its top of my list for when I retire just they didn't take the hint this year  :hammerbash: So I will have to work harder on being one of the chosen for next year :naughty:

One pin down, 8 to go  :paranoia:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Stuart on December 20, 2015, 10:11:15 AM
88's

Stuart
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on December 20, 2015, 11:16:35 AM
 :toilet_claw: I am beginning to think I will be machining these out of solid.

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Steamer5 on December 20, 2015, 11:36:04 AM
Hi Jo,
 Bet the shop gnome wont want those! Still to take a positive out of it the silver soldering works....yeah gods I'm starting to use babble speak  :noidea: :noidea: must bang head on a concrete wall until it goes away!
Still enjoying the jounery with you! Keep at it we all know you will beat it!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Roger B on December 20, 2015, 12:15:17 PM
Is that the end furthest from the headstock that breaks? If so would it be better to turn them round to do the last pin  :headscratch:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on December 20, 2015, 12:32:06 PM
No Roger I am turning the pin close to the headstock. I think I am going to have to find someway to use the fixed stead as by the time the other two pins are done the crankshaft is flexing too much and that is what is causing the breaks  :wallbang:

I am also thinking about milling the pins first  :thinking:

I see lots of swarf in my future  :paranoia:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on December 20, 2015, 01:27:45 PM
Jo Couple of things.

Only feed the solder in from one side, when it comes out the other you should have penitration.

Pickle the crank before doing any machining, left dirty like it is you can't inspect the joints to see how the solder has flowed

Heat for longer as the outside of those three blocks may be red but the middle is probably not upto temperature.

These things work for me and I solder up a lot more larger cranks on the hit & miss engines than these relatively small ones.

I have the end of my parting tool insert hollow ground so its only cutting at the two edges which puts less load on the crank. Also I don't use a parting tool on the sides of the webs.

On the bright side it's all good practice for that BB1 crankshaft :)

J
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: steve-de24 on December 20, 2015, 01:30:32 PM
Jo, sorry to see the problems you are having. It looks like the webs are a bit small in section especially where the main shaft hole is drilled through them.  The webs could be made wider (at right angles to the shaft axis) and the extra width milled off after the turning was finished. Presumably the engine design doesn't allow the webs to be thicker (in the direction along shaft axis). Milling the crank pins to octagonal section before turning would probably also help.
Alternatively you could ask Santa for one of these:-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCoHkl75-Dc
Steve
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on December 20, 2015, 04:02:50 PM
The penetration was good on the second one, the bonking allowed a fraction of movement and it caught the edge and it bent  :disappointed:

I have started looking at the solid bars of EN24  :facepalm: Oh boy they turn hot.

I also decided to get Mr Silky's fixed steady out to find that the same highly qualified service engineer had  :censored: up reassembling the locking pin on the back of that and clearly realised he was a plonker and finished off by put the pin back in upside down.

Jason I tried regrinding two of my tipped tools as you mentioned they do not cut as well as before I  :censored: around with them. Now I will need to buy some more  :( In the meantime the 5mm Hertal may have to be used.

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on December 20, 2015, 04:37:08 PM
You need something very narrow like a Dremel cut off wheel so you don't touch the corners. Don't expect the tool to plunge like before, you feed in one or two thou and then move sideways, another 1 or two and then back the other way. Takes a while but by removing very little metal on eack pass you are not putting undue presure on the crank. I would not go near it with a 5mm wide parting tool.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Roger B on December 20, 2015, 06:24:25 PM
You won't need EN24 for that crankshaft. A basic free cutting mild steel will be enough (EN1A ??). I also use small left and right turning tools for the webs. It reduces the chance of a catastrophic dig in.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: steve-de24 on December 20, 2015, 06:30:27 PM
Jo, before you start reducing expensive pieces of EN24 into large amounts of (red hot) swarf can I ask why you think this grade of steel is necessary for a model steam engine crankshaft? I would have thought that EN1a (preferably leaded) would be more than strong enough. The E value of the two grades of steel will be about the same so both will have the same stiffness (or should that be flexibility!) but the en1a cutting forces will be a lot lower.
Steve
ps Roger posted the same thought while I was typing this!
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: kettrinboy on December 20, 2015, 06:53:00 PM
I use 3 tools to do these deep intermittent cuts, start with a 60 deg v shape tool constantly working the carriage left and right as you feed down to about 3-4 mm depth then as mentioned by Roger B use L and RH knife tools to clean the corners out, then rinse and repeat till you get to full depth , the trouble with using just say a 5mm parting tool is your always creating a 5mm wide chip and thats asking for trouble if you feed in a bit too quick , in my former working life i found EN24 prone to bending a lot after roughing out whereas EN1A freecutting was far better in this respect , EN24 is the annealed condition so as such will only be a bit better tensile strength than EN1A , we usually got it as EN24T which is the heat treated 55 ton tensile condition so pretty tough to machine in comparison to free cutting MS.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: rhankey on December 20, 2015, 08:21:43 PM
Jo, Perhaps I'm a little late to the party.  I feel for you with you machining the triple crankshaft.  I'm sure their are many ways of getting the job done.  I made mine from solid bar stock, and to make matters worse I opted to make my crankshaft over an 1" longer than specified.  You'll have one heck of a big pile of swarf when done.  I turned the whole shaft to the outer diameter of the webs as there will be way too much flex to attempt to do this later.  Then I turned the throws, while supporting the bar stock between centers on both ends and also used a 4 jaw chuck to provide additional support.  I glued in three spacers as I completed each web.  Once all three throws were turned, I then turned the straight shaft.  I did the two ends, working closest to the chuck or collet.  Then I mounted completed end in a collet slid all the way up to the web so I could turn the intermediate section, then flipped for the other intermediate section.  Lastly, I milled the webs to proper shape.  My completed shaft had less than .001" run-out which I was easily able to straighten.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on December 21, 2015, 07:48:08 AM
I am using the EN24 rather than EN1A as I do not have any EN1A. The original crankshaft looks to have been mild steel and has lots of bearings supporting it so strength once made is not an issue.

Good point Robin, this first piece is 20mm longer than needed, I could reduce the length a bit. The actual shaft is 9.53mm diameter and 230mm long so very long and spindly. Hopefully the fixed steady will help reduce the flex.

Back we go see what I can break today  :paranoia:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on December 21, 2015, 07:54:29 AM
Like Ketteringboy I also use three tools, left & right for teh sides of teh webs and the modified 2mm parting tool for the bit left in the middle

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Hit%20n%20Miss/Half%20Scale%20Gade/IMAG3588_zpsreweg18c.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Engineering/Nemett%20Ocelot%20NE15OT/IMAG2926_zpsrt3c3nxr.jpg)

On a smaller crank like your tripple I would use HSS for the sides, may take off the same small amounts as your tipped tool but as the HSS has a sharper cutting edge it will put less force on teh crank therefore less deflection.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Hit%20n%20Miss/Half%20Scale%20Gade/IMAG3589_zpswlukfkhf.jpg)

You will have to keep swapping tools and only take lots of light cuts around 0.005" but there is no rush.

I have also done as rob suggests and held one end of the crank in a collet to keep the part being worked closer to something solid.

Another option would be to use some 3/8" PGMS for the main shaft which won't need any further work so you can have smaller holes in the webs, done several built up cranks like that.

J

PS sometimes its better to just buy the right material for the job than waste time and effort trying to use freebie steel.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on December 21, 2015, 08:30:35 AM
The problem was the bonk of trying to taken down the square bit not the four pins that were successfully turned to within 0.01mm of the required diameter.

A three throw crank has a different set of forces to contend with than turning a one/two or four throw crank.

I am planning, once the pins are turned to use a collet to hold the crankshaft close to the webs, you don't want to do it before the pins as it will just weaken the crankshaft.

Jo

P.S. is that chatter on your crankshaft in your last photo  :hellno:.

Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on December 21, 2015, 08:54:55 AM
Yes, just a heavy roughing cut to get the SG iron casting tidied up a bit before working on the pin so not bothered by it, finish cuts are fine.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Hit%20n%20Miss/Half%20Scale%20Gade/IMAG3592_zpscwoax7mu.jpg)
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on December 21, 2015, 10:55:21 AM
I've started experimenting with one of the two remaining cranks. I have mounted it on the dividing head and tailstock to machine the pins round.

The first thing I found was that this is not a made up crank but a solid one  :whoohoo: The shaft is overall 14mm diameter which means it is a lot stronger than the 11mm one that came from Stuarts, so I am going to try milling all the pins down to 14mm (24 sided shape  :naughty:) to match. The initial milling was done with the pin supported in a vice between the centres. I now have to work out how to provide a bit of extra support or go carefully  :paranoia:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: kettrinboy on December 21, 2015, 11:27:28 AM
Hi Jo
Maybe try some smaller dia say FC3 type cutters to lessen the cutting loads or if thats still not working a split eccentric ring with the same throw as the crankpin clamped to the mainshaft running on top of a bottle screwjack with brass vee pad might steady vibration down , i remember doing a job like this on the Bridgeport mill at work and the ecc ring trick was the only way to stop it chattering but it got the job done.
regards Geoff
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on December 21, 2015, 11:44:06 AM
... or if thats still not working a split eccentric ring with the same throw as the crankpin clamped to the mainshaft running on top of a bottle screwjack with brass vee pad might steady vibration down

Thanks Geoff, I was going to try the split eccentric ring for the turning looks like I need it also for the milling  ;)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Alyn Foundry on December 21, 2015, 05:47:49 PM
Hi Jo.

Is that the crankshaft forging you acquired from me?

A touch of conjecture...... Did Stuart supply forgings in the early days? Perhaps over time they reduced the quality/quantity of material put into their crankshafts?

I have a small quantity of left over Con rod and valve forgings that came with one of the largest engine kits I have ever built..... A 1 HP Barker "B" type of circa 1900. The forgings were way in excess, material wise, of the finished size. Luckily, for me the crankshafts had been originally bought, fully finished.

For me the biggest challenge was the machining of the 16" dia flywheels, too big for the Lathe so I fitted a large faceplate to the horizontal shaft of the Denbigh D4 and did them that way. I wish I had taken some photos.

Kind regards, Graham.   
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: EASy on December 21, 2015, 07:30:06 PM
Hi Jo.

Is that the crankshaft forging you acquired from me?

A touch of conjecture...... Did Stuart supply forgings in the early days? Perhaps over time they reduced the quality/quantity of material put into their crankshafts?

I have a small quantity of left over Con rod and valve forgings that came with one of the largest engine kits I have ever built..... A 1 HP Barker "B" type of circa 1900. The forgings were way in excess, material wise, of the finished size. Luckily, for me the crankshafts had been originally bought, fully finished.

For me the biggest challenge was the machining of the 16" dia flywheels, too big for the Lathe so I fitted a large faceplate to the horizontal shaft of the Denbigh D4 and did them that way. I wish I had taken some photos.

Kind regards, Graham.

Hello Graham,

Do you have any photographs of your Barker?  I have one which is restored and regularly run and shown.  I would imagine that building one was a fantastic experience; I've often played with the idea of a half-size model but am sadly constrained by my lack of ability!

I assume the connecting rod on mine is made of iron, interestingly the small end has no bearing between it and the gudgeon pin (nor is there sufficient outside diameter for one to be introduced). A feature noted on the crankshafts early Gardners, I believe, with them running directly in the cast engine bed. Alas, the small end is worn (and knocking!) on my Barker and a new connecting rod will be required at some point...

Delightful little engines.

Best regards,

Andrew

P.S. Jo, my apologies for going off-topic. I am an avid reader of your threads, but shamefully rarely vocalise my enjoyment thereof.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Laurentic on December 21, 2015, 09:15:22 PM
Jo - Going back to reply No. 177, I am used to thinking that only I am capable of turning an otherwise sound piece of material into a pile of swarf and scrap, but when I see the good and great and extremely well respected (by me at least) machinest doing likewise I have to question my involvement in this hobby.  I mean, if you can do it is there any hope at all for me?  Bet there were a few "oh bother, well I never" type comments made when the second shaft went scarpper up.  But as the saying goes, if you first don't succeed............. (well, that's what I tell myself everyday).

Chris
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: zeeprogrammer on December 21, 2015, 11:15:24 PM
Finally managed to read scan the entire thread.
Always an enjoyment. A little bit of everything including cures for what ails.
Very much looking forward to more.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on December 22, 2015, 07:22:00 AM
Graham, yes that is the crankshaft that came from you. I think someone may have machined it rather than it being forged  :noidea:

I moved forward on the eccentric support yesterday but it proved yet again that a second third fourth bigger milling machine would be really useful  :).

There will be no swarf making today as I have to go Xmas shopping  :facepalm: I will try and make up for it by bringing home an odd casting but I suspect that someone may be hoping to tempt me with another couple of lathes.

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Bob Unitt on December 22, 2015, 11:20:32 AM
Jo - Going back to reply No. 177, I am used to thinking that only I am capable of turning an otherwise sound piece of material into a pile of swarf and scrap, but when I see the good and great and extremely well respected (by me at least) machinest doing likewise I have to question my involvement in this hobby.  I mean, if you can do it is there any hope at all for me?  Bet there were a few "oh bother, well I never" type comments made when the second shaft went scarpper up.  But as the saying goes, if you first don't succeed............. (well, that's what I tell myself everyday).
Chris
I have a personal motto : "Good judgement comes from experience, experience comes from bad judgement" - the perfect excuse for a reasonably large scrap-heap. Also - there's no such thing as a 'scrap-heap', it's actually a 'collection of small pieces of assorted raw materials'.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on December 22, 2015, 04:18:39 PM
The good news is that shopping was successful: I now have two more options for making the crankshafts of this engine  :whoohoo:

The odd set of model engine castings may have joined the happy orphanage :mischief:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Alyn Foundry on December 22, 2015, 05:07:55 PM
Hi Jo.

Is that the crankshaft forging you acquired from me?

A touch of conjecture...... Did Stuart supply forgings in the early days? Perhaps over time they reduced the quality/quantity of material put into their crankshafts?

I have a small quantity of left over Con rod and valve forgings that came with one of the largest engine kits I have ever built..... A 1 HP Barker "B" type of circa 1900. The forgings were way in excess, material wise, of the finished size. Luckily, for me the crankshafts had been originally bought, fully finished.

For me the biggest challenge was the machining of the 16" dia flywheels, too big for the Lathe so I fitted a large faceplate to the horizontal shaft of the Denbigh D4 and did them that way. I wish I had taken some photos.

Kind regards, Graham.

Hello Graham,

Do you have any photographs of your Barker?  I have one which is restored and regularly run and shown.  I would imagine that building one was a fantastic experience; I've often played with the idea of a half-size model but am sadly constrained by my lack of ability!

I assume the connecting rod on mine is made of iron, interestingly the small end has no bearing between it and the gudgeon pin (nor is there sufficient outside diameter for one to be introduced). A feature noted on the crankshafts early Gardners, I believe, with them running directly in the cast engine bed. Alas, the small end is worn (and knocking!) on my Barker and a new connecting rod will be required at some point...

Delightful little engines.

Best regards,

Andrew

P.S. Jo, my apologies for going off-topic. I am an avid reader of your threads, but shamefully rarely vocalise my enjoyment thereof.

Dear Andrew.

I had more trepidation with that engine than anything I had ever built before. In fact I sat on the castings for a few years before starting on them. When you have an unlimited supply of spares to hand it doesn't matter if you  :censored:  up !!   ;)

It was a fantastic experience, and so heavy!! BTW, measure up your con rod I might be able to supply a genuine replacement part !!

I dug, literally, her out today. My workshop floods out continually these days so the damp has really got to grips with her. Here's a short video of a very makeshift, almost Heath Robinson lash up on Hot tube ignition. No one was burnt, well not too badly, during the making of this film !!   :Lol:

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6jlYVstcbo

Kind regards, Graham.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on December 23, 2015, 10:23:11 AM
Having spent some time discussing the challenges of making these crankshafts with my supplier we have come up with two more options for making the crankshafts:

1. Use some 38mm EN1A, rough turn/mill to the same shape as the solid crank then proceed with some ripper cutters supported on the mill. Finish turning with the eccentric support I had nearly finished making

2, Make it up using silver steel and BMS webs loctited together and pinned. Turn the outer diameter to 38.1mm, cut out gaps.

So the quickest way looks to be option 2 so I am going to give that a go. I have some 601 and have just ordered some 638 for retaining. The 601 needing a 0.1mm gap and the 638 being stronger and working with a 0.25mm gap.

So having acquired  :naughty: three pieces of the correct diameter Silver Steel with the magic words (Stubbs England  :Love: ) on the end, the first challenge was to make sure I used the correct end of the bar for the main part of the crank as I didn't want the magic words on the end of my crank  ;)

Thankfully I stopped milling the third crank on the centre pin so it will be easy enough to put back in place if this attempt to make crankshafts also fails  :paranoia:

Jo


Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Bluechip on December 23, 2015, 10:30:57 AM

So having acquired  :naughty: three pieces of the correct diameter Silver Steel with the magic words (Stubbs England  :Love: )
Jo

Should it not be 'Stubs' ??

http://www.parkertools.co.uk/EngProduct/0418099/Stubs

Or is Stubbs the Chinese version ?  :naughty:


Dave
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on December 23, 2015, 10:36:02 AM
 :Doh: typo

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: steve-de24 on December 24, 2015, 12:42:01 AM
Jo, note that the 638 gap size of 0.25mm is the max allowable gap. The downside of using such a big gap is that the cure time to reach full joint strength becomes unacceptably long.  A joint with a radial gap width of 0.05 to 0.1 mm would reach full strength in 24 hours at room temperature.
Steve
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on December 24, 2015, 07:25:21 AM
Thanks Steve,

I have ordered the 638 but I don't expect to see it until the new year  :ShakeHead: I will be assembling with 601 once I have made all the bits (Cranks and 10 pins done  :), 20 webs to go  :( ) They will be getting more than 24 hours each over Xmas to set if I get it done in time.

Some of us have to work today  :disappointed:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on December 27, 2015, 03:20:50 PM
Attempt 3  :(

The mass production of pins and webs is over. The pins are now being loctited to their webs using 601 for an experiment I tried cleaning out the reamed holes with a cotton bud soaked in brake cleaner and was surprised how much muck came out  :o

Each pin was made a nice fit then lightly rubbed up with a needle file to cause some groves to give the Loctite some space. Now it needs to set. And I can think of other things to make  :naughty:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on December 28, 2015, 10:13:28 AM
So this attempt needs some accurate spacers which luckily I have some old slips in some strange measurement scheme which are ideal for the job  ;D

Then it is a case of clean, clean, clean the inners of the webs and the shafts. Carefully holding only one end of the shafts slide the webs on, move them just over where they need to go, anoint the shaft alongside each joint with 601 and slide the webs back into place over the 601. A quick twirl to make sure the insides are fully coated. Then onto the surface plate for spacing and angling as required. Leave to stand for at least 4 hours before handling  ;)


Edit: Quick up date, crankshaft 1 has just been removed from the jig and based by how well it had stuck itself to the Vee block  :Doh: it looks like this 20 year old 601 is doing a good job unlike the copy 601 that I tried previously on a different engine  :disappointed: So second crank in the jig  :pinkelephant:


Which means I can make some swarf again.  :whoohoo:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on December 28, 2015, 01:23:29 PM
Looking good Jo, are you hoping to find a flywheel under that rust?

J
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on December 28, 2015, 04:31:34 PM
I found three  ;D

So lucky 3's flywheel was missing, Numero Uno came with a flywheel casting and Graham provide a third which had a protective coating on it  ::)

The Cast Iron Bar was the nicest to machine even the outside didn't have any hard spots and I could cut the undercut with ease. The casting was only just over sized so the outside had to be turned in two halves, making sure to consistently bore from the same size as the one from the solid bar. And it had a horrible surface that ruined the edge on my nice HSS tool  >:( The recycled one had to have a skim all over to remove the protective coating and it was already slightly undersize  :-\ They are all to slightly different profiles (outside dimension is ok ) due to the nature of castings being all over the place but it matters little.

Now they will be left for over 24 hours while I go and visit a nice machine tool dealer who normally takes it as a personal challenge to try to sell me something every time he sees me and in return I will be attempt to recover some of the profit he has made out of me by eating his Xmas fare  :LittleDevil:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Bertie_Bassett on December 28, 2015, 05:48:50 PM
looking good Jo

you wouldn't want them all looking the same so the different profiles will be good. got to have their own characters
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on December 29, 2015, 05:27:58 PM
Thanks BB,

I learnt today that brake cleaner acts as an accelerator for 601, which would account for why it went off so fast on my cranks 8)


Before anyone asks not I did not buy any engine castings today,

I did eat a few mountains of cheese on the odd biscuit  :naughty:,

I had to help out buy eating a some of their chocolates  :shrug:

and as I couldn't drink their wine as I was driving they forced me to take two bottles home  :facepalm:


Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on December 29, 2015, 05:42:54 PM



Before anyone asks not I did not buy any engine castings today,

So does that mean you came home with a bootfull of Tooling castings and raw materials for engines :LittleDevil:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on December 29, 2015, 07:04:36 PM
 :hellno: I didn't take my car and no raw materials came home ;)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Bertie_Bassett on December 29, 2015, 07:06:52 PM
:hellno: I didn't take my car and no raw materials came home ;)

Jo

so when are they being delivered????   :stir:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on December 30, 2015, 02:08:08 PM
BB I've got plenty already  :naughty:

The crank bearings need to be all in line, this means I need a jig. So on the mill a suitable jig was made first to fit the standard sized bearings. On to the face plate, making sure all are the same way round, first drill, then bore and finally ream to size.

12 more to do  :( and I will need to resize the jig after the next 7.

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on December 31, 2015, 01:36:26 PM
With all the bearings machined they could be put back in their individual housings and a piece of 9.53mm bar passed through but that was not the end of the fitting  :ShakeHead: The fun bit was then adjusting the widths of the bearings so that the crank would slot in: Three bearing surfaces rub the crank webs so they had to have a couple of fractions of a millimetre taken off to let the crank spin smoothly.

Some easy bits next while I think about those balance weights  :thinking:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Don1966 on December 31, 2015, 02:40:15 PM
My kind of women! Jo you doing a great job of building and teaching with all this multitasking your doing. I am totally enjoying your work.........I ..........like........... :praise2:

Don
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on December 31, 2015, 04:36:49 PM
Comming together Jo.

I think I would be tempted to cross drill a bit of 1/2" square bar, tap the weights and then screw to the bar to turn the outer dia rather than risk doing it on the cranks. You can then open up the tapped hole to 7BA clear and fit to the crank, file off the peined over head.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on December 31, 2015, 04:42:50 PM
Thank you Don  :cheers:, happy new year 

I've knocked out the keeps before closing up the shop. they are nothing exciting only a bit of 12mm wide bar that has been machined on both edges to get them nice a sharp with three holes in it. I have modified mine and tapped the centre hole to take an oil pot  ;)

Thanks J , I only have 9 weights so I probably will have to take two engine sets out of bar stock. At which point it might be easier to make all three sets with a single jig  :thinking:

I can see there being a lot of new castings left over at the end of these builds as many of the parts are easier to make out of bar stock.

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: zeeprogrammer on December 31, 2015, 05:00:20 PM
My kind of women! Jo you doing a great job of building and teaching with all this multitasking your doing. I am totally enjoying your work.........I ..........like........... :praise2:

No Don. Mine!  ;D

But I totally agree with the rest of your post.

Always a good read.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on December 31, 2015, 05:03:57 PM

I can see there being a lot of new castings left over at the end of these builds as many of the parts are easier to make out of bar stock.


You are comming round to my way of thinking ;)
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on January 01, 2016, 09:02:16 AM
No my opinion remains the same: some suppliers seem to be determined to provide castings for everything when, often  because they have not allowed any means to hold the part  :(, it is actually easier to use bar stock. Other times it will take forever to find the part in a piece of bar stock  :toilet_claw:


The drawings for the balance weights leave a lot to be desired  :ShakeHead:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on January 01, 2016, 10:16:42 AM
Other times it will take forever to find the part in a piece of bar stock  :toilet_claw:

But some of us enjoy the hunt ;)

Are the weights you have supplied as castings or barstock? either way I think I would machine all upto the basic rectangular shape and then set up a few stops on the mill vice to allow some batch production especially as you have 18 to make.

Yes it does take a while to work out what they have shown on the drawing, you may want to learn how to use the fillet tool to put an internal fillet where the thickness changes as shown on the drawing :LittleDevil:

J
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: steam guy willy on January 01, 2016, 01:10:59 PM
No my opinion remains the same: some suppliers seem to be determined to provide castings for everything when, often  because they have not allowed any means to hold the part  :(, it is actually easier to use bar stock. Other times it will take forever to find the part in a piece of bar stock  :toilet_claw:


The drawings for the balance weights leave a lot to be desired  :ShakeHead:

Jo
Hi Jo, In the film industry they have " castings" and nearly all the "castees" except one are discarded !!  is that why they are called castings, as so many are rejected ? !! Happy and a preposterous new year !
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Roger B on January 01, 2016, 02:12:53 PM
Digging through some old pictures I found this fine example of herringbone gearing from a ships transmission system (taken in Hamburg docks in the mid 80s). Just reduce in size and use to couple two of your orphans  :stir:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on January 03, 2016, 12:53:59 PM
:thinking: Possible but lets see how we go.

I am still working on the balance weights  :facepalm: It is one of those jobs that is so easy to get side tracked from ::) So the basic design was drawn up using Cubify and transferred to Crap-o-Cad to take into the workshop.

To do batch work you don't want your material to be all sorts of recyclable sizes  :ShakeHead: but I needed either 1m of 25mm wide or .5m of 50mm wide 6.35mm thick material... I finally found some long enough bits of steel just over 40mm wide thick from which to make the weights. Cutting and squaring up took a while even with the power hacksaw  :). Then I needed a jig which could be used for both cutting the slots and for turning the outsides. And decided the crankshaft bearing jig could be recycled  :ThumbsUp:


But then someone told me he was throwing out a bench  :o so I had to offer it a loving home which delayed work on the weights again. So having spent the morning preparing the ground, two very nice gentlemen  :embarassed: arrived at my house and generously carried my new to me bench into the workshop  :whoohoo: One of them even asked to see my castings  :mischief: The bench has been furbished with a new top and I now I have to decide what to store in it. Last time I saw this bench it was full of engine castings  ;).


So I am now back on the balance weights, lots of mounting holes have been drilled and it is now time to cut all of the slots. First with a slot drill to 12mm, then using a 12.7mm cutter to open the slot up to 12.5mm  :headscratch: and then move the bed 0.1mm either way to provide a suitable slot for the crank. I think the fit is acceptable, I might not need that 638 to fix them.

Jo


Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 03, 2016, 01:40:01 PM
Why transfer to C-o-C? Why not transfer to a drawing in Cubify?

Thanks for a peek at your drawers.  ;D
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on January 03, 2016, 02:26:45 PM
Why transfer to C-o-C? Why not transfer to a drawing in Cubify?

Because I would have had to position the measurements I actually wanted on the paper before printing, so it was just as quick to use C-o-C. (Also I am currently using up the last of the ink in the inkjet which of course isn't water proof  :ShakeHead: and we have been having a lot of wet weather of late so the drawing might have run on the way to the workshop)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on January 03, 2016, 04:21:01 PM
If you position the dimensions as you draw then its only a case of ticking the design dimension option and it will put them on the drawing in exactly the same position. This is usually fine for workshop use but you may want to move them about a bit more if sharing the drawings.

If you walk to the workshop there is no risk of the ink running ;)
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on January 03, 2016, 04:41:25 PM
This is the 2D drawing it does. As you can see there are lots of other dimensions cluttering up the place  :disappointed:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Dave Otto on January 03, 2016, 04:47:03 PM
If you only need a few dimensions just put them in manually; I find that most of the time it takes longer to clean up the dimensions brought in with the solid than just putting in the ones I want to see after creating the 2d.

Dave
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 03, 2016, 04:53:46 PM
I'm sure you already know Jo, but for others this may be helpful (I hope)...

In CubifyDesign, open the part then click the gem button (top-left) and select 'New'-New Drawing.
Click 'Template' if you want to add part information (date, name, etc.) then select OK.
A dialog opens where you can add the part information. (I believe you can create your own template to include more information).
Press OK.
Two windows will open; a blank drawing and a smaller window to select your view and options.
For dimensions, click 'More Options' and then check the 'Design Dimensions'.
Then you're back to the drawing window and if you hover over it, it will show where it will place the views of the part.
Click the mouse.
You can then move dimensions around or delete ones you don't want to see.

I print on standard letter paper and then insert into a plastic sleeve.
Keeps the oil off and a grease pencil can be used to make additional notations.

I don't mean to teach anyone about eggs.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on January 03, 2016, 04:54:31 PM
With the jig and the part drawn as one item you are bound to get more dimensions, if they had been drawn as separate parts and also when drawn place the dimensions outside the actual parts you won't clutter things up as much. Its quite easy to just click suppress on the features you don't want in the drawing eg the jig and then print whats left eg the weight.

Though like Dave says I usually just add my own and by printing you don't risk getting things like diameters and radius wrong that way ;)

Its also nice to be able to lay the part on the drawing if it has been printed actual size just to get a quick check that you have made it right, can't do that with COC
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Bertie_Bassett on January 03, 2016, 06:07:30 PM
am I missing something with those weights?? they look like slices of a pie from where I'm sitting?

wouldn't it be easier to turn up a round then slice into 3, quick set up in the mill to tidy up the sides and another set up to mill the slot and your done?

could be totally wrong of course, but would be less wastage and may be easier then making them out of rectangular stock.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on January 03, 2016, 06:49:25 PM
They tend to overlap a bit too much to get a saw blade in, the two 40deg lines do not go to the middle of the 44.4 circle

Best cut in rows from one inch bar of double row from 2" as jo said
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on January 03, 2016, 06:58:56 PM
You can only get two out of a slice of 45mm bar but then the centre depth would be short probably about 5.5mm rather than 6.35 assuming you parted with a slitting saw and the cut would have to be spot on the centre line or you would have to turn the outsides again afterwards.

The jig should mean that it will not be necessary to turn the outsides of the balance weights again.

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Bertie_Bassett on January 03, 2016, 07:42:31 PM
ahh I though that might have been the case.

I think I would have been very very tempted to alter the design somewhat so that you could get 3 out of a round. but then I tend not to work to exact drawings
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on January 04, 2016, 06:38:46 PM
I considered mounting the jig on the faceplate but the mounting bolts would have got in the way of the lathe tools so I chose to set it up in the four jaw independent chuck.

So it is a simple turn the outside and counter bore the inside  ;) And you may not see me for a while  :insane:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on January 04, 2016, 07:54:10 PM
One down ...............................................................
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on January 04, 2016, 07:55:44 PM
12 to go  ;)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on January 04, 2016, 07:57:50 PM
I knew that, 1 engine down two to go :LittleDevil:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Dave Otto on January 04, 2016, 08:51:47 PM
Nicely done Jo!

Dave
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Don1966 on January 04, 2016, 10:58:49 PM
Neat trick Jo, you are the queen of machining girl...........I ..........like.......... :praise2:

Don
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on January 05, 2016, 07:36:48 AM
Thanks Guys  :) I suspect there is going to be a lot of jig work on this engine.

The original castings for these weights would have been difficult to hold: The only way I could see of doing it would have been clamped to a rotary table, then moving the clamps to enable the machining to continue... it would have been very slow  :(. Not to say this was fast, actually it would have been much faster if someone had stuck to building only one engine  :slap:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 05, 2016, 10:05:14 AM
if someone had stuck to building only one engine

So long as you're not fickle.  ;D
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on January 05, 2016, 11:46:28 AM
Thanks Guys  :)  The only way I could see of doing it would have been clamped to a rotary table, then moving the clamps to enable the machining to continue... it would have been very slow 

So you did not fancy trying them in-situe on the crank which would have been another scary option.  ;)
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on January 05, 2016, 12:40:55 PM
You still have to machine them to fit them on to the crank in the first place  :paranoia:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on January 05, 2016, 08:23:06 PM
There are lots of them  :facepalm: and if you compare them with the castings one would worry that I am not following the correct drawings  :-[

The next job is to cut all the 40 degree angles the same :thinking:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on January 05, 2016, 08:30:34 PM
The castings certainly look like the pattern maker was working to a smaller radius?

Can you explain what the last pic shows, to me it looks like you have stood one vertically and then machined the end and are showing that it is 40deg. If so what did you use to cut the angle with.

EDIT don't worry I've worked it out. it sone of teh top flat edges you have teh wixey against and will mill across the end :ThumbsUp:

J
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on January 07, 2016, 01:22:17 PM
 :Doh: Nearly forgot, I need to drill some holes.

Two cheap drills decided to break off after a few holes each and had a habit of wandering, trapping the swarf which in turn caused the breakages. Then I found an old number drill which must be nearly 50 years old which worked like a hot knife through butter, cutting nice smooth straight holes and throwing out the swarf nicely ;D

The holes on the bottom were done by the remains of the drills at the right bottom  :disappointed: and those above by the old timer who will be going back on my drill rack  ;) If you look carefully you will see the old timer has the same slow spiral as the long reach drill above, the two new drills made of something  :censored: are a faster spiral.

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on January 08, 2016, 01:43:52 PM
 :ShakeHead: Never go in the workshop when you are tired: That's when undocumented features tend to happen  :facepalm:

So I was happily cutting the angles on the sides of the weights and for some reason I tried cutting the angle twice on the same side  :o Thankfully only after a couple of initial skim cuts. I tried rounding over the edge but  :disappointed: But it did not look right so an opportunity to make more balance weights  :paranoia:

Thankfully all the tools were still set up. So another slice was taken off my 50+mm bar and the holes drilled to fit the jig, the slot cut using the jig in the mill, centre the jig again in the four jaw start cutting the outside and  :facepalm: I remembered that actually there is a nasty mark on one of the weights and I should really be cutting two more, not one. Cut another piece off, drill holes, then realise that I cannot cut the slot without moving the jig  :wallbang: so do the turning first. But not before breaking a tip trying to counter bore the centre, which has not slot in it to enable the boring bar to start... so use a slot drill to provide some clearance in the centre.

Then take the unslotted one back to the mill to have the slot cut having just realised that two of the mounting holes have just been turned off  :-\ But re-centring the jig meant that I could use the old timer to drill the hole that I had forgotten to drill in the first spare weight. You will notice that I have poked a loose bit of post-it under the weight while I drill it, this is so that as the drill breaks through it will touch the post-it and move it so that I don't have to keep peering under the weight hoping that it has come through but not so far as to go through the vice jaws  ;).

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 08, 2016, 02:45:21 PM
Nice tip on the post-it note!
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: cwelkie on January 08, 2016, 03:38:07 PM
More good progress Jo - in spite of the re-do. That little voice we all hear was likely hinting at making "spares" when dissatisfied with the finish on one of them.  ;D

I've been in the same place ... especially with batches of parts.  Been trying to develop a habit of colouring the surfaces I'm set up to cut off just before I start a process.  When the felt marker colour is gone; that part/surface is done.  Found a lot less confusion when I take a coffee or lunch break too.

Charlie
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on January 08, 2016, 03:39:11 PM
Hey Zee pleased to see you are following along  ;D

I do keep thinking we should start a thread on 101 uses for post-its in the workshop  :naughty:

Thanks Charlie that is what I normally try to do as well  :)

Jo

Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 08, 2016, 04:28:34 PM
Hey Zee pleased to see you are following along

Thanks for putting it nicely. 'Stalking' is probably more accurate.  :naughty:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on January 09, 2016, 02:20:22 PM
Those angles seemed to take for ever. They sped up a bit after I muttered about the cutter going blunt (= blue hot chips & swirly cutter marks  :facepalm2: ) and remembered that I have a very nice, but  :-[ seldom used, Union cutter grinder. The newly sharpened cutter did a cracking job  ;D

The unused balance weight castings will be added to the come in handies drawer  ;)


I need some pins then things will begin to be a bit more interesting again or I could do some fastner's  :thinking:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Don1966 on January 09, 2016, 03:29:12 PM
Lovely work Jo. ............ :ThumbsUp:

Don
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on January 09, 2016, 03:55:29 PM
Thanks Don,

I was a little worried about the 7BA studs to hold on the weights: 2.5mm dia is not a common size  :-\ but a very lovely man gave me some of his come in handies before Xmas and one of the bundles is all 2.5mm dia steel bar  :)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on January 09, 2016, 04:57:58 PM
7BA cuts very easily onto 3/32" rod if you also have any of that laying about, don't forget to remove the rust otherwise you will get a brown ring where you pein over the head and file it flush.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on January 09, 2016, 05:16:27 PM
Indeed it would, but the thread having lost at least 25% of its engagement, for me, is not acceptable  :hellno:

And I don't have any old 2.5mm stuff that is rusty: all the metal I was given by that lovey man  :Love: is protected by oil, which must be removed if you want good adhesion for Loctite.

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on January 09, 2016, 05:36:15 PM
It did for Mr Stuart as that is what they include in all their casting sets that include the metals and Mr Mason was also happy to do that on the Minnie and his other engines, Anthony Mount is also partial to a bit of 3/32" with 7BA on the end, so at least I'm in good company ;)

You also usually get somne degree of extrusion when cutting a thread so teh OD can easily end up above that of the parent metal
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on January 12, 2016, 08:59:25 AM
I have decide that I do not like the look of pins in the crank :disappointed:

And thinking about it the main crank is already pinned by those 2.5mm diameter studs that are used to secure the balance weights on. So the only real need would be for pins at the connecting rod end but that Loctite has been really evil and the crank is very well supported it is difficult to see once it is bolted down how it could move  :noidea:

Thankfully the balance weight will cover that horrible looking pin and no one will be none the wiser  :mischief:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on January 12, 2016, 01:26:13 PM
Thankfully those horrible pins are not that noticeable once cleaned up  :)

Balance weight fitting: Having checked the fit of the balance weights on its web and marked it superglue in position. Use the old timer drill that was used to drill the weights to provide a witness mark, remove weight, drill and tap for the 7BA. Check the fit with its stud in place, repeat, repeat, repeat....  :-\

And no I still have not split the cranks  ;)

Jo

Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on January 12, 2016, 01:35:26 PM
The pins should be all but invisible once filed flush as long as there were peined over well and there are no stray manner blows. Agree you don't really need them where the weights go as the 7BA thread can be taken into the main shaft to pin that.

Now you see them

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Hit%20n%20Miss/1-3rd%20Galloway/IMAG1780_zps9e7f7ecc.jpg)

Now you don't

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Hit%20n%20Miss/1-3rd%20Galloway/IMAG1781_zpsa3d7c989.jpg)
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on January 12, 2016, 07:07:57 PM
Using screws in place of the studs each of the joins in lucky 3's crank were cut out.

Then one by one the weights fitted using 638 Loctite, each time checking the fit in the bearings/soleplate before proceeding to fit the next. The 638 is interesting not at all like 601 more of a jelly just the job for this as it doesn't run everywhere  ;D

However I am not letting the crank set in the bearings :hellno: I could just see it sticking solid so it is in, in the warmth of the dining room for the night. I start the next one tomorrow.

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Don1966 on January 12, 2016, 07:51:30 PM
Looks to work a treat Jo and still following your marvelous thread............ :ThumbsUp:

Don
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 12, 2016, 10:23:38 PM
I'm still stalking following.

Starting to get anxious to see it all together.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Dave Otto on January 13, 2016, 12:49:16 AM
The crank(s) look beautiful Jo!

Dave
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on January 13, 2016, 07:42:30 AM
Thanks Guys,

Starting to get anxious to see it all together.

:lolb: You and I both, it must be nearly a month I have been fighting these cranks and I might have the first acceptable, I have another two to get to the same stage.  These engines are not going to be a fast build but I am told that the crank is the worst part so its downhill once these are done  :noidea:


The cylinders are looking very interesting  :naughty: but I might need to get a couple of quickies done first to recover my machining confidence and no not fastners  :disappointed:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on January 13, 2016, 08:45:16 PM
1....2.....3 :drinking-41:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Steamer5 on January 13, 2016, 10:05:33 PM
Hi Jo,
 Only an hour to do the last two, picking up the pace a bit there  :stir:

Looking good, still following learning & getting inspired!

Just backed up a couple of posts, Jo is the 638 you used in a bottle or a stick? My son in law gave me a couple of different loctite sticks a while back & they are great for getting it just were you want, although it can be a bit awkward to put on IF you have to get it in a tight spot.

Cheers kerrin
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Bluechip on January 14, 2016, 01:04:22 AM
Ah, very smart ...  :ThumbsUp:   I had every confidence ..  :D

BTW have you threaded any of that 2.5mm bar at 7BA? I did it at 2.5mm and it seemed a bit tough-ish.

The thread was quite good but my Draper 2.5mm CS die seemed not too keen, but I only used cutting oil. Maybe I should have used Trefolex ??

Following with interest ..

Dave

Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: fumopuc on January 14, 2016, 04:51:33 AM
Hi Jo, no comments from my side, but always following along and learning which each of your postings.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on January 14, 2016, 07:34:44 AM
Thanks for following along Guys  ;D Kerren that 638 is in a bottle: I reckon I will have to be careful it doesn't go solid on me. Yes Dave it was a bit high on the carbon content but cut a treat with one of my Wirlwind dies and a bit of Trefolex  :).

I was having a look at the connecting rods last night over my  :wine1:: my first thoughts were that Stuart don't want to make it easy for you  :ShakeHead: They have provided three piece of 25mm diameter bar about 60 odd mm long I am not sure how you expect to machine the rods out of them.  The rods are about 55.5mm long which leaves not a lot to clean up or hold by  :headscratch:

I will have to see if I have any 20mm square stuff as other than causing a lot of bonking I would have thought back to back rods out of square would be easier. And I must remember to make a spare this time  ;)

Jo

P.S. Remind me to find the pictures of lucky 3's rods  :facepalm2:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on January 14, 2016, 07:48:33 AM
Round can be easier to hold in the 3-jaw for turning and then into the 3-jaw / collet on the rotary table to do the milling to get it square /rectangular with tailstock support on the mill the lack of length won't be a problem.

If you want to do it from square then the mill vice is OK just think through the operations carfully so you don't run out of things to hold.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: NickG on January 14, 2016, 07:08:45 PM
Got to hand it to you Jo, I think doing something twice is getting tedious so a triple would be out of the question - but 3 of them 😱 . You are doing a great job on them though, am enjoying the thread!
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on January 15, 2016, 08:40:16 AM
Jason I do not think that I will be using a three jaw for this I do not want to waste material ensuring I have enough extra length that I am not stressing the jaws by holding the material by their tips. No I will be using a collet chuck which means I can get away with minimal wasted material for holding not forgetting I need a bit extra for the milling cutter over run.

Thanks Nick, do you think I might be regretting doing three  ::).

Exploration of my come in handies did not come up with sufficient 20mm square material to make these rods out of. I did how ever find plenty of 20mm dia or around about bar with the required brown protective coating to show it is of excellent parentage. So a bit of preplanning was conducted (Warning don't trust the measurements on my sketch some are changing  ;) ).

I also dug out the original connecting rods from lucky 3: They are all the same length, but as you can see don’t match each other.

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on January 15, 2016, 01:32:19 PM
Jo is the outside of the "U" shape turned or flat sided on these, I can't quite decide from the drawings and looks like those that you have are turned?
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on January 15, 2016, 02:27:25 PM
The original Stuart demo model connecting rod is flat sided but I've seen both.

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on January 15, 2016, 04:22:34 PM
Thanks Jo, makes it a bit easier as you don't need to get the ball turner out, just your favorite rotary table.

When I did the tidman I shaped the two 3/8" bosses before doing the slot but think it can be done either way. Also only drilled a hole for the inside of the fork and milled it out last.

J

PS Do you need any specific photos of Stuart's one taken tomorrow?
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on January 15, 2016, 06:41:41 PM
I'm thoroughly enjoying this Jason and Jo  show I am,  kinda reminds me of some of the BBC telly shows I get on Friday nights  :cheers: :popcorn: :DrinkPint:

Cletus
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on January 15, 2016, 06:50:09 PM
Rotary tables :facepalm: That reminds me I had it pointed out I now have lots of Imperilous rotary tables: 4", 6" (2), 8" and 10". This was of course pointed out by someone who showed me photos that proved his is 12"  :o

PS Do you need any specific photos of Stuart's one taken tomorrow?

I'm cool. I did an extensive set of photo's a few years back but don't let me stop you taking some so that you can prove if I am trying to sneak by some unique features of my own  :naughty:


Hey Big E thanks for joining us  ;D.

I am not sure of what you watch on a Friday and maybe I shouldn't ask  ::) Hope you are finding this useful  ;)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on January 17, 2016, 12:41:59 PM
Needing 0.75m of material to make the con rods out of challenged my stocks, thankfully I had a piece of 450mm long 20mm dia bar, a bit of hex that had been turned to 20mm that would provide the sixth and it was suggested that I use an odd piece of “pink” to take the last three out of. Clearly not leaded but that should not be a problem to anyone with decent tooling and it polishes up nice  :)

Having started the first stage on my turning plan :facepalm: I discovered that Mr Silky does not own a 18mm collet. Standard size 5C collets are so cheap so there is no excuse for not buying one so we will have to wait a couple of days for that to turn up. So nine (should it be ten  :thinking:) bits ready to start some work on the indexing head once the collet turns up  ;)

In the meantime, it must be time for some :( fasteners…

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on January 17, 2016, 01:30:02 PM
I've got to ask why you have turned the majority of the stock down to 18mm as I thought the 20mm was a bit on the tight side?

Don't you have a 5C to ER32 adaptor you could shove up Mr silky's hole then use an 18mm ER collet? and whats wrong with his chucks??
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on January 17, 2016, 03:56:06 PM
The big end is 19.05mm diameter and the smaller end needs to be 15.08mm by 9.53mm which fits nicely in a 17.85mm diameter hence the 18mm.

To use an ER32 collet I would have had to have much more waste material than is necessary with a 5C collet to avoid the risk of the double tapers bell mouthing when you tighten :ShakeHead: Had I not mentioned I do not like stressing my 3 jaw chucks by holding things on their jaw tips  :headscratch: and the milling cutter I am going to need to use to cut the slot is less than 9mm, these small cutters tend to be short and the diameter of the chuck will mean I need to waste metal making it stick out of the chuck far enough to get the cutter in  :disappointed:

I have an ER32 chuck on a 2MT that would go straight in the nose of the dividing head if I felt that way inclined but I don't. I can afford the vast £6.02 for the correct sized 5C collet and another little gift will remind Mr Silky how much I love him  :embarassed:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on January 17, 2016, 04:17:26 PM
Ah got you now, I was getting my ends muddled up.

Don't see it being much of an issue on the chuck jaws afterall hundreads of engineers before us have cut shallow recesses into the ends of their softjaws which puts just the same load onto the chuck as holding parts near the end.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on January 17, 2016, 04:31:09 PM
Don't see it being much of an issue on the chuck jaws afterall hundreads of engineers before us have cut shallow recesses into the ends of their softjaws which puts just the same load onto the chuck as holding parts near the end.

I do not have soft jaws for the three jaw chuck that fits on my dividing head, if I did I still would not be able to turn them to diameter as none of my lathes have a threaded nose that would fit it for turning  :ShakeHead:

Mr Silky has a collection of soft jaws for his three jaw chucks but I am not planning on making a hardinge nose adapter for my dividing head just to do this job :hellno:.


The bell mouthing occurs over time on hard jaws that are abused  ::)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on January 18, 2016, 08:03:17 PM
Now that someone has remembered that it is supposed to be Winter  :( It is a bit cold for those of us with a decent sized workshop to bring it all up to a nice working temperature unless you sit on top of the heater :disappointed: so it is time to bring into play that very important piece of equipment: the House Lathe  :cartwheel:

One can sometime forget how nice it is to have a Cowells and Sexy sharing the house with you until the temperature outside is minus 2 degrees and freezing fog  :disappointed: So work on the triple's fasteners is underway  8)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Roger B on January 18, 2016, 08:33:55 PM
Quite warm in Hampshire then  :) We were in Lapland last week, down to -28°C, and a mere -8°C at the bus stop here this morning.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on January 19, 2016, 01:23:01 PM
Not bad Roger (-7oC this morning) but it means I had to work from home again just in case there was dangerous ice  :Doh:

Good as gold that nice man at Arc has sent Mr Silky through his 18mm collet super fast so with a bit of spare solar power heating the workshop this morning it was time to make the most of lunchtime  :naughty:

Having mounted the blank in the indexing head 5C chuck and used a wobbler to find the centre and the end it is then easy to find the hole for the pin and drill/ream it. At this point it is worth checking the orientation of the rod before commencing milling.

I started by milling the sides of the rod around the pivot holes and then using a different cutter milled the end to width. It is worth noting here that I have a number of these DA collet chucks so while I have swopped over tools I have not moved the cutters as they are set in the collet holder so having taken note of the depth measurement I will know where the edge of the tools are when I put it back in the milling machine.

For information I pick up these 30int DA collet holders second hand with collets for about £10 each as they are a standard fit for most CNC machines and when you find a dealer with them they have boxes of 100s of them available. People keep telling me that ER collets are used as standard in industrial machines but I have never found any second hand ones  :headscratch:

Jo

P.S. I found a milling cutter that had clearly been sharpened on a Friday afternoon ::)
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on January 19, 2016, 06:10:45 PM
Just to finish off this stage: mill the width .5mm over width,  drill two holes one in either end of the slot first with an undersized slot drill cut the slot and finish with an end mill the correct size to bring the slot to width.

Eight more to go  ::)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: vcutajar on January 19, 2016, 06:14:48 PM
Following along quietly in the background Jo.  Love you perseverance and patience in finishing them off.

Vince
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on January 19, 2016, 08:18:19 PM
Love you perseverance and patience in finishing them off.

Thanks Vince  ;)

I promise a nice simple single next or if it gets too much during this build one might sneak in :naughty: I must be good and not go looking for a candidate  :hellno: otherwise I will be spending too much time fondling it and progress on the triples will slip  :facepalm:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 19, 2016, 10:25:01 PM
You've got some nice equipment there Jo.
Wish I could see it in person.

Someday.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on January 20, 2016, 02:24:39 PM
Hi Zee  ;) it slowly appears over time: Every time I go to a show another sneaks back with me and appears in the workshop  :naughty: or if I decide to save my money that justifies getting someone else to pick the odd item up for me when they go to a show :mischief:

One day Zee, one day but you might need more than a day if you want to see my casting collection  ;D


Rod three six slotted, six three to go  :)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on January 22, 2016, 03:52:05 PM
Nine slotted, a few milling cutters that need re-sharpening  ::) so it is time to head back to Mr Silky for the next bit.

The shaft of the connecting rod is tapered and it is a very shallow angle. I find the easiest way to set this is to wind the top slide right to the end stop. This now means that there is a solid reference at all times with the DRO reading  :) Then having marked the work with permanent marker move the tool in until it just scratches off the marker.

We know that the connecting rod tapers by 0.8mm over the length taper so half way along should mean that the tool must be 0.2mm further out than at the end.  So when the top slide is at the right angle and the tool is traversed using the top slide to the half way mark a feeler gauge of that thickness should just start to slide in  :naughty:

As it is Friday and I am tired the workshop rule is being applied: Never ever use a machine tool if you are tired :hellno:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on January 22, 2016, 04:23:27 PM
Will a 6mm dia button tool leave too big a fillet at the big end to get your nuts/bolt heads in? or are you going to change tools to put a smaller radius on that end?

Making steady progress :)
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on January 22, 2016, 04:39:37 PM
Will a 6mm dia button tool leave too big a fillet at the big end to get your nuts/bolt heads in? or are you going to change tools to put a smaller radius on that end?

Yes it will, the other end will need a diameter of 4mm or under but a larger diameter radius is needed for the outside of the yoke.

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: bouch on January 22, 2016, 09:09:51 PM
Just found this thread.  Wow, ambitious project!  I "rescued" a fubar'ed Stuart #1 quite a few years ago, and that was a challenge to fix.  Just about every part had some dimension horribly off (and usually undersize!).  The crank was so bad I just threw it out and built a new one from scratch.  I'm still struggling to comprehend the work you've gotta do on those 3!

They look great, you're going to have quite a set for your mantle when you're done!
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 22, 2016, 10:09:08 PM
but you might need more than a day if you want to see my casting collection

Thanks for the invite.  :naughty:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on January 23, 2016, 07:52:51 AM
Just found this thread.  Wow, ambitious project! 

Thanks Mike, I am beginning to question if it was a good idea trying to do three  :facepalm:

Hey Zee, you nearly missed that, you have to keep an eye on my threads other wise I might try sneaking one past you :mischief:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on January 23, 2016, 03:35:13 PM
Starting by zeroing in the front side of the cutter on the bottom of the connecting rod. It was then a case of turning the main shaft down to 5.5mm between 35mm and 8.5mm on the DRO  ;)

To cut the taper the saddle was positioned at 35mm and then the top slide wound back towards the tailstock. Wind the cross slide in to 5mm and then use the top slide to cut the taper on the first bit of the rod. Repeat this time taking the top slide right up against the bottom of the rod and wind in to 4.8mm and cut the remainder of the taper.

That just leaves using a smaller diameter tool to reshape at the bottom of the rod so the nuts don't rub.

 :headscratch: Those original rods were all over the place, they are a much larger diameter than shown on the drawings  :noidea: Another 7 to go  ::)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 23, 2016, 04:21:33 PM
Trying to get my head around this.

When you say 'top slide'...is that the same thing as the compound rest? (The part that can move in Y while the cross slide goes X?)
Was the top slide at an angle?

Thanks
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on January 23, 2016, 05:22:52 PM
Hey Zee  ;D

The top slide is the lathe slide that can be set at an angle that is on top of the rest of the lathe slides (The bottom is the saddle, then the cross slide which goes across the saddle at 90 degrees, then the top slide which goes at what every angle it is set at) .

And you missed it  :( the post before last I explained how to set your top slide to the correct angle to give the correct reduction in diameters over a given distance  :facepalm:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 23, 2016, 05:26:16 PM
and I am tired

mea culpa  :embarassed:

I guess I was tired too.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on January 24, 2016, 05:25:29 PM
The rods were doing so well I had tapered 7 of them then I had a visitor who convinced me that he could give a good loving home to one of my Orphaned casting sets :) 

Of course having had to say goodbye to one of my castings sets left me feeling all sixes and sevens until my supplier turned up with a desire to fund his locomotive habit  :ShakeHead: So I was forced to take in a couple of Orphans to help him out  :-\

I hope to finish the tapers tomorrow, in the mean time I have some fondling to do  ::)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Roger B on January 24, 2016, 05:36:41 PM
I'm ok with the V8. What's the last one? A flat four?
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on January 24, 2016, 05:41:56 PM
And looks like he left you two jaffas as well :pinkelephant:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on January 24, 2016, 05:56:50 PM
I'm ok with the V8. What's the last one? A flat four?

The other is LC Mason's Mastiff  ::) http://www.hemingwaykits.com/acatalog/The_Mastiff___L_C_Mason.html

There is no sign of any Jaffas any more :disappointed:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 24, 2016, 06:03:41 PM
Isn't anyone going to say it?
What kind of friends are you?

Jo needs help. The diagnosis is 'casting-itis'.

Unfortunately, the only cure is removal of the cause.

I don't see that happening.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on January 24, 2016, 06:27:17 PM
 ::) I did admit to my addiction all those years ago when I joined the forum: http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,392.msg2681.html#msg2681

I know of only one true cure but so far have not been successful in finding it, I am sure you will know if I do  :embarassed:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on January 25, 2016, 07:23:05 PM
My enthusiasm for connecting rods has tapered off  :disappointed:

As I don’t really want to start any rotary table stuff tonight I thought a quick check for the bearings. I have 12 of the 18 I need. Luckily they are 19mm outside diameter so this test bar which is 22mm diameter should be able to provide suitable slices  :).

The other bit I have been looking at is eccentric straps, luckily a lovely man sent me through an extra six which means I am only short of six of those as well. The answer to those will be to cut them out of 8mm thick slices of metal which has its own brown protective coating that materialised in my workshop yesterday. :whoohoo:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on January 26, 2016, 01:13:43 PM
 :facepalm2: Nearly forgot before removing the end the fork is nice and strong, ideal for mounting in the vice to drill the two big end bolt holes. With a brand new spotting drill and a nice 2.5mm drill the holes were, at high speed, drilled in the bottom of the rods.

Having done what I thought was all of them I looked to put them back in their sets only to find one of the pink rods had been stolen by the workshop gnome  :rant: He had me playing I've hidden and you go seek for over 15mins until I found the missing rod in the box where I had found those bits of bronze yesterday  :thinking:.

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on January 27, 2016, 07:40:29 PM
Having taken off the ends I realised there was another bit I had forgotten to reduce so with a pin through the pivot hole and a 2.5mm screw providing a second reference the two sides of the rod were taken down to 6.35mm total width.

Then with a suitable 2BA screw acting as the central anchor the profile could be added on the ends not forgetting to reduce by 0.4mm all around the boss to make it stand proud. One more little bit of BCA work to do and these will only need polishing. Which means I can start planning on the next bit to turn into swarf  :drinking-41:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Roger B on January 27, 2016, 07:52:08 PM
Still following along  :ThumbsUp:  :wine1: Did your dentist notice when you stole his mirror  :stir: (Actually a very good idea that I could have used in the past  :) )
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on January 27, 2016, 08:37:19 PM
Thanks Roger,  :)

Did your dentist notice when you stole his mirror  :stir: (Actually a very good idea that I could have used in the past  :) )

 :-X  As well as the mirror you no doubt noticed that I have been using my marker pen again to help show up what is happening. One cannot always rely on what it sounds like, especially with a nice sharp cutter  ::)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 27, 2016, 11:01:30 PM
My enthusiasm for connecting rods has tapered off

Say it ain't so Jo.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on January 28, 2016, 05:44:56 PM
All done  :)

The last little bit was rounded on the BCA: I do like how rotary tables let you drop the worm gear out of mesh and wiz the table round it saves all that winding. A bit of a clean up, then one can always polish until the cows come home.

So now I can go and plan the next bit over a  :drinking-41:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on February 04, 2016, 07:57:06 AM
 :thinking: I've been looking at the piston rod and crosshead  I am not sure if I like the idea of making these in BMS I would prefer stainless but I don't have enough.

There seems to be many ways of making these. The original drawing shows the bottom of the cross head bolting on so that you can use a one part bearing. Both Lucky 3 and n additional set of spares I have acquired have used split bearings. The other difference between the later two types of rod is that Lucky 3's rods attempted to make the part in one piece where as the other made theirs out of three pieces and screwed them together  :noidea:

With so many of each part to make my metal stocks are suffering  :wallbang: Stuart's in the past supplied three pieces of 80mm long 28.5mm round bar, which is about 0.5mm over the diameter you need to get the cross head out of. My come in handy collection had another 2 lengths of 32mm diameter which was long enough to allow me to make another 4 rods but I would have been one short and have used up all my 32mm dia bar :(. The alternative is to use some 22.23mm square section which I have enough of to make 10 rods  :)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Bertie_Bassett on February 04, 2016, 01:04:20 PM
id be making them out of 3 separate pieces personally, cant see any reason to spend ages digging that shape out of a piece of solid ( unless you want a challenge)

a lot less wastage too, which is always a bonus

screw them together with a some suitable adhesive, or do a bit of silver soldering.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on February 04, 2016, 01:21:27 PM
I did think about it BB very seriously but the entire power of the engine HP cylinder would be transferred through a single 4BA thread that could be only 3.2mm long and I could see it not lasting :paranoia:

After a bit of character building with the mechanical hacksaw (it doesn't do all of the cutting itself it has to be given a hand starting in the cold weather  ::) ) nine pieces were cut off. These then needed to have their faces squared off and centres put in. 5C square collets do not go above 19mm  :disappointed: which is where the 4 jaw SC chuck comes in.

So having prepared a full set, Mr Silky immediately pinched the first one to start roughing it out. As you can see he is using one of those carbide tip tools that lets you use the other two corners that never break on your normal tipped tool. Sadly while he is showing lots of enthusiasm to get going on these it will not be this evening as I have an anniversary to celebrate   :embarassed:

Jo

P.S. Don't let him claim that I have been neglecting him  :hellno: he has been having plenty of attention of late as he has just finished turning up the bearings for the connecting rods for me.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on February 04, 2016, 04:07:35 PM
Sadly while he is showing lots of enthusiasm to get going on these it will not be this evening as I have an anniversary to celebrate   :embarassed:

So the burning effigy and pins will be out tonight then :lolb:

Making steady progress, hope mr silky does not mind all that banging of the corners
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Bertie_Bassett on February 04, 2016, 04:59:01 PM
theres a part in there somewhere!
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on February 04, 2016, 05:46:58 PM
So the burning effigy and pins will be out tonight then :lolb:

 :headscratch: Heathen: We celebrate the best things in life with good quality wine and excellent food with our beloved friends. Ok so there might be a bit of fondling as the wine has its wicked way but don't worry you are not invited  ;)

Making steady progress, hope mr silky does not mind all that banging of the corners

Mr Silky does not bang jason :hellno: it is only the work  bumping into his tool that makes any noise. :embarassed:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: NickG on February 04, 2016, 08:10:44 PM
I think the fabricated rods would be OK unless you intend driving something with the engine. Otherwise it only has a turn over a teeny flywheel! Also, how often are our engines run, I know my answer

Yours will be a better job though.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on February 04, 2016, 10:52:04 PM
I've experienced the same problem as Mr. Silky myself 8) :mischief:. I'm seriously and I mean honestly,  trying to keep up with this  :wine1:

Big E
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on February 05, 2016, 03:52:27 PM
Turning the piston rods was generating a bit of heat so I let Mr Silky use his coolant oil :facepalm:

He got carried away: he sprayed it all up the window, down my front and covered himself with it. The problem with his oil while it makes him glisten in the sun it doesn't dry out and go away like water based coolant, so unless I give him a good rub down afterwards I will get continue to get covered again whenever I touch him  :-[.

I do hope it has the same properties as baby oil for my skin but somehow I doubt it  :-\

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on February 05, 2016, 04:12:19 PM
I'd hate to see anything come between you and Mr Silky but maybe a trial separation in the form of a perspex sheet on a magnetic stand may at least stop him dribbling down your front.

At least my Mr Gritty has a splashback that keeps flying suds contained

Are they all roughed out now?
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on February 05, 2016, 07:26:20 PM
Sounds as if Mr. Silky is acting like a teenager who can't maintain control,  or an old chap who can't gain control  :old: :wine1:

Big E
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 06, 2016, 12:38:02 PM
I saw your note in another thread that you were considering not posting more.
I hope you're not considering that any more.
I've been following, learning, and enjoying. I'm sure many others have.
I haven't posted much here...but that's my problem.
I just don't know what to say and you answer most of my questions before I can ask.

 :popcorn:

And by the way  :wine1:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Bob Unitt on February 07, 2016, 12:57:27 PM
I saw your note in another thread that you were considering not posting more.
I hope you're not considering that any more.
I've been following, learning, and enjoying. I'm sure many others have.
I haven't posted much here...but that's my problem.
I just don't know what to say and you answer most of my questions before I can ask.
+1 - Every new post is eagerly anticipated, the only reason I don't  comment is that I have nothing useful to add...
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on February 07, 2016, 03:51:55 PM
Thanks Bob and Zee. There is not a lot happening: The removal of the oil from all over the place took a while  :(

The rods were each taken to 7.5mm diameter leaving sufficient for the final cut and the top of the cross head undercut to 1.6mm deep. I had started on the holder for the tool to cut the piston rod to size when I had a visitor which meant that nothing else was done this afternoon  :shrug:.

Jo

P.S. 2mm diameter carbide tool all mounted ready to go  :)

Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: joe d on February 07, 2016, 06:07:29 PM
This is proving to be very interesting to follow along, Jo.  Please add me to the list of those who hope
that you continue to post... I've learned a lot from your various projects, and perhaps I'm amiss in not
popping up very often to say thank you.

Cheers, Joe
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on February 07, 2016, 06:44:57 PM
Thanks Joe,

My problem is that I get paranoid that I am:

i, Boring people by going into too much detail
ii, Posting too often, to try to show real-time progress or my failures and it is not necessarily adding value
iii, Doing what one of my friends so politely called "W'waving" (Last time I looked I didn't have one of those Stuart  :disappointed:)
iv, Using jokes/innuendos that some without an engineering background have suggested is unbefitting a young lady  :-[
v, Repeating things that you have already read and know all about
vi, etc... etc  :paranoia:

And some of us have to go to work tomorrow so no  :wine1: tonight.

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: PJW on February 07, 2016, 07:00:30 PM
Hi Jo, I dont know much, but what I do know most of it came from you, so keep on posting,

Peter
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Stuart on February 07, 2016, 07:09:33 PM
Jo

With ref to iv
People who get offended should spend some time in engineering especially around the table in the mess room , yes it's cutting , but it's harmless and by ek they stick together and that frendship when earned is for a lifetime . It's needed especially in the electrical side to keep each other safe

Like others have said we as a Colective have leant a lot from you , mainly to keep a eye out for castingitus , because it's very infectious   :stir:


Stuart

Thanks for the kick up the rear a while ago


Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 07, 2016, 07:46:33 PM
I don't mind you copying my list Jo. But a little credit please  ;D

I suspect many of us suffer the same issues.

i, No
ii, No
iii, No (and I don't know what that even is)
iv, No
v, For the experienced...maybe. For the rest of us, No. And I consider this a teaching forum as well so repeating oneself is a requirement. Just ask Marv  ;D
vi, No, no, and no...

And some of us have to go to work tomorrow so YES  :wine1: tonight.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Stuart on February 07, 2016, 08:02:50 PM
Zee

Will you please stop using foil and abusive language on the forum some of us are of a delicate nature  :old:


The word that is bad to my ears is ' work ' truly bad


Just joking gave it up when I was 50 rotations around the sun now just coming up to 69 rotations I do not participate in that activity any more but the HMRC still take their cut every month out of my pension  :cussing: :cussing:

As I said only joking
Stuart
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Mike Bondarczuk on February 07, 2016, 08:38:00 PM
Jo,

I look forward to your posts, pics and "innuendos" and find them both amusing, instructive and very educational, so please if you ever wish to see me posting the build log of the S & P beam engine you reluctantly party company with very recently then continue in the positive mode of all of your previous posts.

Educationally yours,

Mike  :old:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: kettrinboy on February 07, 2016, 09:36:07 PM
Hi Jo
still following along here and i enlarge every pic as well , and posting often is good and a lot better than once a month or god forbid once a year with that sort of gap I forget what the project was and have to go back through the previous posts to remind myself , nothing wrong with a bit of innuendo  :naughty: lightens the tone a bit now and again
regards Geoff
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Alan Haisley on February 08, 2016, 06:03:53 AM
Jo,
Your posts are fun to read. They are also educational. The advantage to repetition is that later on there is a better chance of finding an example "how-to". Please continue as you have been.
Alan
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: 10KPete on February 08, 2016, 06:24:07 AM
Jo,

If it ain't broke, don't fix it! I love reading your threads and your contributions to other threads. You bring a great deal of humanity to this mechanical business and make it a very enjoyable 'hobby' for me and many others. Thank you for being you!!

Pete
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on February 08, 2016, 08:42:00 AM
Like others have said we as a Colective have leant a lot from you , mainly to keep a eye out for castingitus , because it's very infectious   :stir:

Thanks guys, an early apology: no reports from the workshop this lunch time some of us are having to work  :ShakeHead:

Yes Castingitus is a dangerous infection, which is very similar to machine_toolitus both of which can in the short term be detrimental to the local moth population, but in the longer term should be both environmentally and pension friendly   :)

Mike: I trust you to look after that casting set, it is the only one I have ever let leave the orphanage  :o

Speaking of castings my Supplier had a viewing of the extent of my collection yesterday and hadn't realised just how many I have prised out of his own collection  :LittleDevil:

Jo

P.S. Stuart are you back with MadModder?
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Stuart on February 08, 2016, 09:30:53 AM
Jo

Sadly no with the problem I discussed with one forum is enough to cope with

Stuart
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on February 09, 2016, 01:58:02 PM
Each piston rod started off by having the end that will be threaded cut to 5mm. It needs to go to 3.6mm for the 4BA thread but the larger diameter was chosen to provide more support

For a quick break I started knocking out the bushes from a nice piece of bronze.

Then using my carbide tipped tool I found I was not happy with the finish  :ShakeHead: While it was more than happy to take off 1mm at a time it would not take fine cuts and left a ridged surface  :facepalm: The only answer was to grind up a piece of tool steel and slowly turn using that. The great thing about tool steel is you can happily take of 0.001mm in a cut :)


Not yet half way  :-\

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on February 09, 2016, 02:57:44 PM
Will you be threading before you shape the end? seems like that will be an easy job holding in the 4JSC chuck and out with the diehead.

Do you have any **GT tips in that shape as they will take a nice fine cut or you could switch his oil back on :LittleDevil:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on February 09, 2016, 03:43:33 PM
My current plan is to leave it there in case I need to do anything more between centres. The length of the rod is such that it can be held by the round section  later.

That was a GT tip I was using and it does not have the clearance for getting into the recess  :disappointed: I even have the boring bar version and the geometry is totally wrong on that to machine in to the recess  >:(.

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jim Nic on February 09, 2016, 04:20:58 PM
Jo
Just catching up with this thread when I saw that you were considering reducing your input to the forum.   :o :'(  As others have said I enjoy all aspects and gain a tremendous amount from your postings which helps me to achieve some measure of success and enjoy my paltry efforts in model engineering. 
Please Jo to quote the song "Don't go changing."   
Jim
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on February 09, 2016, 07:10:38 PM
Thanks Jim  :),

No update tonight, the piece of Toolsteel has lost its edge :disappointed: and I will have to sharpen it again. In the meantime this evening I will be saying hello to a few of my castings sets  :embarassed:

I do wonder if it is time to play guess the casting set again :naughty: (but someone who has already knows what I have got might have to be banned  from the game  ::))

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Dave Otto on February 10, 2016, 01:46:13 AM
Thanks Jim  :),

No update tonight, the piece of Toolsteel has lost its edge :disappointed: and I will have to sharpen it again. In the meantime this evening I will be saying hello to a few of my castings sets  :embarassed:

I do wonder if it is time to play guess the casting set again :naughty: (but someone who has already knows what I have got might have to be banned  from the game  ::))

Jo

Jason go stand in the corner and let the rest of us guess.  :lolb:

Dave
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 10, 2016, 01:51:36 AM
Thanks Jim  :),

No update tonight, the piece of Toolsteel has lost its edge :disappointed: and I will have to sharpen it again. In the meantime this evening I will be saying hello to a few of my castings sets  :embarassed:

I do wonder if it is time to play guess the casting set again :naughty: (but someone who has already knows what I have got might have to be banned  from the game  ::))

Jo

Jason go stand in the corner and let the rest of us guess.  :lolb:

Dave

My guess now will be as good as my guess later.

It's the 3rd one.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on February 10, 2016, 07:53:50 AM
Jason won't be comming out to play :-[ :-X
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on February 10, 2016, 08:08:31 AM
How about if I do a beginner's section then an advanced section specially for you  :mischief:.

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on February 10, 2016, 08:19:59 AM
Maybe if I poped over and you blindfolded me then I could have a feel which woud make it harder
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on February 10, 2016, 08:32:12 AM
Somehow I can't see you popping over this Sunday  :lolb:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on February 10, 2016, 09:26:10 AM
Somehow I can't see you popping over this Sunday  :lolb:

Jo

True, the queue is likely to be too long anyway :naughty: and you would be expecting a card and present :ShakeHead:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on February 12, 2016, 03:51:30 PM
I had hoped to finish the ends of the rods this afternoon  :-\

The undercut at the top of the crosshead needed to be done with a tee slot cutter. Then to take each cross head to the total length (of the side plate) it was returned to the four jaw chuck and each taken down to 16mm long.

More tomorrow  :disappointed:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: ReFlad on February 12, 2016, 07:38:07 PM
Nice build log, Jo.  Amazing talent!
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 12, 2016, 08:33:03 PM
Somehow I can't see you popping over this Sunday  :lolb:

Jo

True, the queue is likely to be too long anyway :naughty: and you would be expecting a card and present :ShakeHead:

Impatient cheapskate.

How can you say the cost and time isn't worth it?  :ShakeHead:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on February 13, 2016, 07:52:38 AM
Thanks Ronald  :)

Zee, you forget Jason is a lost cause  :lolb:


Another feature: (at least I found it before making swarf  ::) ) The plate on the side of the cross head has four set screws in it, on the stuart model these seem to have hex heads. If you draw this out you find that the corners of the hex over hang the edges of the metal which will never do :ShakeHead:

I will increase the overall width to 17mm from 16mm and by the looks of things it might be worth moving those tapped holes out a tad  ;).

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on February 13, 2016, 08:14:48 AM
Is that not why they show the nut with one flat vertical? Also last time I worked it out 3/32" was not 2.302mm

The right hand red line is on the opposite side of the plate so no issue with the nut

Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on February 13, 2016, 08:36:32 AM
The chances of getting the head of the hex headed set screw exactly with a flat parallel to the edge is not good. The original holes are 11.1mm apart and the across corners of a 7BA = 5.1mm, combine those together =16.2mm on a 15.88mm plate  :ShakeHead:.

I was taught it is not good practise to have dangly bits or bits too close to the edge they should always be spaced in a bit, mine will be.

Jo

Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on February 13, 2016, 10:10:28 AM
Could use 1 size smaller heads or studs and nuts then you can tweak the stud if the hex of the nut is not where you want it
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on February 14, 2016, 10:58:09 AM
The crosshead pin holes are easy enough to drill in position but then the milling to size and shape takes a bit of thinking about. Having taken the side opposite the mounting flange down by 1.6mm I foolishly started milling the sides of the first one and realised I was leaving only the 1.6mm edge to hold the crosshead head by for the later cuts :facepalm:

So before doing any more I used a nice sharp end mill the bottom of the crosshead was taken to dimension leaving the flange sticking out. And as you can see the one I had started milling the side was a bit of a  :censored: to hold.

Once we have finished this Panettone  :naughty: break I hope to get the sides finished.

Jo

Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on February 14, 2016, 04:44:17 PM
The rods were mounted on their sides and a slot drill used to cut the full width of the cross head minus the 1.6mm which is the flange. They were then turned over and packed up on parallel (a piece of toolsteel  ;)) and the other side taken to dimension.

The holes were then reamed for the bearings. Before you mention that the bearings have dimples  :o have no fear there will be no little dimples on any of my engines I am a real stud and admirer of their quality nuts kind of girl  :embarassed:

The next job will be to give that end mill a lick on the cutter grinder.

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 14, 2016, 05:49:08 PM
Turned out real good Jo.

Happy Valentine's Day.  :wine1:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on February 14, 2016, 06:21:33 PM
Thanks you Zee, I got my normal number of valentines day cards  8)

If I remember rightly there may be the odd crumb of Panettone left that the Gannets didn't eat, so I might have to check if any have my name on them :naughty:.

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on February 16, 2016, 01:07:49 PM
I am not sure how good the bearing fit needs to be on the crosshead  :noidea:

Each of the bearings have been put into a collet chuck and the centres drilled and partially reamed using a hand reamer. The hole is still undersized and will be individually fitted to the pin after. The faces were each then taken to 1.25mm to give me a fit with enough space for the oil  :).

So all nine are together and move freely. I now have to decide If I want to mill a couple of flats on those crosshead bolts  :thinking:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on February 16, 2016, 01:19:17 PM
A little sideways play won't hurt, maybe even more that you have as it will allow the parts to line themselves up, much like a conrod little end is often narrower than the gap inside the piston. If its tight on assembly you can always take a little off which is preferable to putting it back on ;)
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Bertie_Bassett on February 16, 2016, 06:38:46 PM
they certainly came out nicely !

keep the good work coming :)

oh and are those elastic bands exactly as per the drawings?? and are they metric or inferial?
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on February 16, 2016, 06:46:13 PM
Hi Bertie I can tell you they are inferior they have a habit of breaking and the workshop gnome seems to be fond of them   :ShakeHead:

The faster I get on and finish the big end bolts so that they are not necessary the better  ::).

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Stuart on February 16, 2016, 06:56:18 PM
Jo

Very nice work, not commenting much but I am watching closely 😍

I would be very worried though you gnomes are exhibiting the same behavure as mine are , I have put it down to spring being in the air and its nesting season , so there could be a increase in numbers shortly

Stuart
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on February 17, 2016, 05:38:07 PM
Thanks Stuart  ;)

The next set of pieces to make are hiding inside these somewhere  :headscratch: and they have another 6 friends that are a bit more recognisable. Have you recognised what they are going to be yet  :naughty:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Stuart on February 17, 2016, 05:40:58 PM
Pistons

Is my guess

Stuart
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Nick_G on February 17, 2016, 05:43:38 PM

 Have you recognised what they are going to be yet

Jo

Eccentrics. ????

(https://static-secure.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2014/7/24/1406225850604/Back-to-the-Future-Secret-011.jpg)

Nick  ^-^
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on February 17, 2016, 05:49:16 PM
That was clearly too easy  ::) Six eccentric castings to go with the bar stock off cuts on top of which are lucky3's originals.

Now I just need to work out how to machine them. I think some engineer's brain lubricant is needed  :wine1:.

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on February 18, 2016, 10:47:05 AM
So I might have a plan of attack:  :thinking:

The existing eccentric castings are wider than needed (22.23mm) because they have a chucking piece on the opposite side to the lobe that is going to have the grub screw fitted. But we don't need this for the intermediate eccentrics if they are being machined from those bits of bar and can be held by the outside of the bar for turning a register.

Those pieces of CI off cuts I acquired, at no expense ;D,  are 30mm thick because that was the sort of size the castings were (one set is 27mm thick the other 31mm) but if I use the bar stock for the intermediate cylinder eccentric I have spare metal and could make the missing piston rings out of it while I take it down to size  :naughty:

So a careful bit of roughing out is in order and I could do with at least  :o 9+9 piston rings

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: vcutajar on February 18, 2016, 11:16:44 AM
I'll be interested to see how you do these.  Will be watching closely.

Vince
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 18, 2016, 11:18:29 AM
I hadn't seen eccentrics like that before.

I noticed that 1/16" 'ring' around them.
Are there two sheaves (i.e. one on either side)? Doesn't seem right. They'd only be 3/32 wide.
One sheave with a 1/16" groove on the inner side?

I'm guessing that would save width as the side retainers? wouldn't be needed.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on February 18, 2016, 11:40:14 AM
Thanks Vince, it should be interesting.

Hi Zee: there are two eccentrics 6.35mm wide each has that 1.6mm groove on the inside. Each has it's own strap which in turn connects to either end of a plate with a curved slot in it called the 'expansion link'. Running in the slot is a die which depending on the position of an arm attached to the end of the expansion link  makes the engine go either in forward or reverse (if we are lucky ;) ).

Jo

P.S. Yes that is 18 eccentric straps to make  :facepalm:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on February 18, 2016, 01:51:43 PM
One end of the each of the castings has been turned to 16mm so that it can be held properly. Then I started by turning the bits of CI to 32mm (22.23mm plus twice the offset = 30.23mm plus a bit)  Then I remembered these need to be split  :wallbang: A 1mm slitting saw will not leave much spare if I don't square it up correctly.


What about the other end  :thinking: the smallest is 12mm wide and I need 12.7mm but it only needs to be 30.23mm over the ridge. The main eccentric diameter is 20.63mm I can get away with the 32mm as I only need 20.63+8 = 28.63mm, allow for the slitting saw and I still have 3.4mm of spare  :pinkelephant:. And the better news is that the 32mm needs a little more taken off for making piston rings out of  ;D

All is not lost (but there is still plenty of time  :-\)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on February 18, 2016, 03:32:14 PM
Did I miss the piston rods/crossheads getting finished or could you not resist a casting or 9?
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on February 18, 2016, 03:56:52 PM
The piston thread will be cut with fitting the pistons and the 7BA threaded holes will be done at the same time as the slide plates/arms.

Edit: The other end of the bits of bar stock are to 34mm diameter. Next job the turning jig  :drinking-41:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: kettrinboy on February 18, 2016, 05:51:41 PM
Hi Jo
Interesting little job these double eccentrics , cant remember if ive done this sort of job before but ive got an idea in my head of how i,d do these involving a chuck mounted plate with an eccentric pin so i,ll be interested to see how you tackle it.
regards Geoff
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on February 19, 2016, 01:32:23 PM
For the eccentric jig I decided to calculate the measurements for the two angles. Then mark them onto the end of the jig using the 5C collet chuck to hold it. This was then drilled and tapped M6 for the mounting screw. The addition of a sleeve to fit the eccentric hole should be all I need  :thinking:

So back to roughing out the eccentrics

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on February 19, 2016, 03:57:34 PM
The two sets of eccentric castings were different sizes: the ones from Numero Uno have more than 9.5mm spare for a chucking piece. The second set is tight with only 5mm.

Having made sure to leave the centre lobes over width 15mm (ish) but both so that the two lobes are balanced I then checked the handing of the castings and marked those on. I am sure you could get away with machining them the wrong way round but lets not risk it  :ShakeHead:

All castings have 16mm diameter lobes and have not yet been taken down to any dimension  ;) Next job to prepare the split ones for turning  :paranoia:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 19, 2016, 10:22:28 PM
True, the queue is likely to be too long anyway :naughty: and you would be expecting a card and present :ShakeHead:

Impatient cheapskate.

How can you say the cost and time isn't worth it?  :ShakeHead:

And now I see this in another thread...

Quoting Jason: "Yes I was worried that nurse Jo may offer to give me the kiss of life so made a hurried exit"

So it's a 'foolish impatient cheapskate' eh?

I do not question Jason's expertise with machining and engines. All else, I fear, is or may be garbage.  ;D

Jo...

6 eccentrics. Why 18 eccentric straps?
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: scc on February 19, 2016, 10:43:31 PM
Not only do I love the engineering,   the banter can be entertaining too! :ROFL:    Keep it up all concerned.           Terry
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: joe d on February 19, 2016, 11:16:02 PM
Looking good, Jo.  I'm  not sure that I would be too keen on making that many of the same thing
after experiencing the spoke & strake extravaganza for my TE.

Looking forward to ore...

Joe


Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on February 20, 2016, 08:12:27 AM
Thanks for following along Terry and Joe  ;)

6 eccentrics. Why 18 eccentric straps?

Hi Zee so far its 6 double eccentrics, there are another three to try to find in those pieces of bar stock  :noidea:



It looks like everyone is conspiring to keep me out of the workshop again this weekend  ::)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on February 21, 2016, 02:57:27 PM
The bar stock has been mounted in the dividing head, two screw holes counter bored and drilled the 7BA tapping size. The piece was then slit to a depth of 17mm and while it was set up the top half of the screw holes drilled the clearance size. The post-it was used to enable me to feel when the drill broke through the top so I did not drill too deep.

The holes were tapped and screws inserted before Mr Silky helped by parting them off. The material is still over sized but not by much. So that is all the roughing out done it is now finally time to start turning eccentrics  :)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Roger B on February 23, 2016, 11:32:01 AM
Still following along  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp: I knew their was a reason I started of with single cylinder engines  :)
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on February 23, 2016, 12:51:34 PM
I agree Roger. Watching this has moved my thoughts of a radial way down my list. I'm enjoying watching Jo have the fun though.

Cletus
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on February 23, 2016, 01:06:22 PM
Thanks Guys, I can feel your sympathy for doing multi-cylinder builds :lolb:

Sorry we did not have a build update last night I was busy playing workshop Ouija board  :embarassed:.

As there are only three split eccentrics I decided to do those first and turn the 12.7mm diameter to 3.18mm deep and to ream the 9.53mm hole. As you can see on one of the sheaves the hole for the screw has broken into the smaller 30mm diameter area but this does not matter as that will be shortly taken down further.

Next the easy ones  :)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Allen Smithee on February 23, 2016, 01:17:46 PM
it is now finally time to start turning eccentric

Surely that boat sailed long ago, Jo...

 :LittleDevil:

PDR
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Stuart on February 23, 2016, 02:18:32 PM
Allen

I thought we all had  :mischief:


Stuart
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on February 23, 2016, 06:36:51 PM
The solid eccentrics were each mounted in a 16mm collet and the outer end drilled/reamed to 9.53mm before taking the outside to 12.7mm and marking that side as the reference. Having done all six it was then time to set up a 12.7mm collet in the nose and to turn the other 16mm end of each to 12.7mm diameter.

Mr Silky thought you might like to see one of his little pleasures  ::)  When working with Cast Iron like everyone else he doesn't want any of that nasty dusty stuff up his spindle  :ShakeHead: So he has a bottle brush and a piece of brazing wire which has had its end bent over. The wire is poked through his nose and hooks up the bottle brush and is used to pull it through, bringing with it all that nasty dusty stuff that one does not want in your Collet threads ;)

While I know Mr Silky has already mounted the eccentric turning jig up in one of his collets the next part takes a bit of thinking about so it will have to wait for another day  :-\.

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 23, 2016, 10:16:30 PM
Mr Silky thought you might like to see one of his little pleasures

One lucky piece of equipment. Jealousy rages.

As there are only three split eccentrics

"only"  :ROFL:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on February 23, 2016, 10:50:59 PM
Seems a cotton thread and some flannel clothe would have been a lot gentler on the poor chap  8)

Big E
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on February 24, 2016, 07:35:44 AM
One lucky piece of equipment. Jealousy rages.

Zee this is why I didn't show you any picture of what he has to go through after he has been playing with his "baby oil"  :embarassed:

Seems a cotton thread and some flannel clothe would have been a lot gentler on the poor chap  8)

Big E the problems with a piece of cloth is it does not clean right into the threads which are at the end of his collet closer :disappointed: so I end up having to remove the closer to get at them. And yes his baby oil gets down there as well  :facepalm2:, it gets every where  :facepalm:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on February 24, 2016, 09:49:23 AM
If you really care for him you would push a bit of foam into the back of the collet before using it that way he won't get dirt in his nooks and crannies to start with ;)
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on February 25, 2016, 01:56:53 PM
To machine the eccentrics I first had to remove the flashing on the outside rim of the castings. Then I mounted them up on the jig and made sure that in both positions there was plenty of meat to come off  :)


Then came the :o bit. Slowly taking down the inner sheave  :paranoia: You can see how much of the outer sheave has to be turned down at the same time. So the first stage is to take the outside to 22.23mm diameter.

Then I discovered my very nice 2mm tipped parting tool didn't have enough clearance on the side not to be hit by the other sheave  :facepalm: So I will have to find another tool to use.....


.... And then the roller skate turned up so I had to have a little play with that  :naughty:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on February 25, 2016, 02:37:59 PM
Not sure why your tool should be hitting the other side apart from what needs taking off.

Ecc 1/4-1/16" rib =3/16 div 2 = 3/32 or 2.4mm and most 2mm insert tools have a 2.2mm insert so you should have enough room
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on February 25, 2016, 02:44:34 PM
It is catching the material that needs to be turned off.

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on February 25, 2016, 02:47:04 PM
Is that knocking it sideways then?
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on February 25, 2016, 02:48:35 PM
It would, yes.

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on February 26, 2016, 12:55:40 PM
The inner sheave was carefully machined with a HSS parting tool to leave the ridge along the centre.

Then the sheave was rotated so that the zero line on the sheave now lined up with the correct timing mark. As you can see a lot of the other sheave overlaps the second so has to be carefully turned off.

Having removed that lump it could then be taken to 22.23mm diameter. Before using the thin carbide tipped tool to machine the groove on this side (checking the dimensions with a drill shank  ;))

It doesn't look that different to Lucky 3's original. Eight more to go  :).

Jo

Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on February 26, 2016, 06:51:46 PM
 :facepalm2: A word of warning the ip sheaves are easily cut from the castings but the Lp sheaves need a bit of fiddling about to get the right mounting angle to let both sheaves come out in one.

4 down 5 (2  + 3 split) to go  :paranoia:

Jo

Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on February 28, 2016, 10:12:11 AM
:disappointed: The split eccentrics are proving to be even more difficult. The turning and getting the offset with the jig works but then I was not happy with where the screw head holes ended up   :ShakeHead:


So we are starting again, this time with a cuppa and a stencil to work out where the sheaves should be. In drawing these out it became obvious that the split on the eccentrics can be used to provide the timing  :cartwheel: So once this is drunk I will try, try, try again.  ::)


I am not sure how much I will get done as I have some engine castings visiting this afternoon :headscratch: Something about them wanting to meet my roller skate.  :noidea:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on February 28, 2016, 12:48:13 PM
 ;D success. I only have to turn off the extra boss and then I think I deserve some castings  :mischief:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 28, 2016, 01:20:57 PM
Looks great Jo.

What did you mean by 'where the screw head holes ended up'? What's different?
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on February 28, 2016, 01:27:54 PM
Another batch out the way, I presume the screw heads were comming within the shallowest part of the eccentric rather than the thick part which has enough metal to accomodate the head.

Is it straps next? if so I may have something to make your life easier cutting the grooves ;)

And make sure your supplier is wearing proper safety equipment when he takes teh roller skate for a spin, we don't want him having more eccidents.

J
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on February 28, 2016, 05:15:22 PM
Hi Zee yes the screws should sit in the widest part of the eccentric opposite to the crank, which they now do  ;D

I may have mentioned I had a visitor today and he brought some castings with him but he took the Anzani home with him  :rant:

Looks like I am going to be busy doing a little casting fondling  :embarassed:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on February 28, 2016, 05:18:16 PM
I hope he left that blue box for me :cartwheel: along with the other less interesting items

And your Redwing is already red :) but no flywheels :-[
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Bertie_Bassett on February 28, 2016, 05:27:40 PM
congratulations, must be satisfying to get them done!
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on February 28, 2016, 05:33:40 PM
Thanks Bertie it was a relief  ;)

Your stuff is in the cardboard box  ::), with 20 sticks of silver solder and 6Kg of silver steel

The flywheels make the box a bit too heavy to lift  :stickpoke:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 28, 2016, 05:45:11 PM
but he took the Anzani home with him

 :'(  :'(  :'(

How can you have a good enough excuse for that to happen?
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Bertie_Bassett on February 28, 2016, 05:46:01 PM
Thanks Bertie it was a relief  ;)

Your stuff is in the cardboard box  ::), with 20 sticks of silver solder and 6Kg of silver steel

The flywheels make the box a bit too heavy to lift  :stickpoke:

Jo

why thank you! ill pick it up in the week
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on February 28, 2016, 05:47:20 PM
Bertie the price ticket is also on the box  ;)

I tried the black mail of a free dinner but they were sneaked out to his car while I was serving up  :ShakeHead:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Bertie_Bassett on February 28, 2016, 06:09:54 PM
Bertie the price ticket is also on the box  ;)

ahh I missed that! though I'm sure that's a good price.

you should have got them to help serve up, never leave castings out of your sight!  just like children ( I think)
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on February 29, 2016, 08:14:09 PM
The eccentrics have been mounted in a collet chuck and had both of the sheaves taken to their correct width, the boss that is still needed taken to length before turning off the unwanted boss.

The six solid eccentrics then had a 7BA hole tapped in it for some grub screws. 7BA grub screws  :headscratch:

Now it is time to think about more castings  :whoohoo:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on February 29, 2016, 08:21:56 PM


7BA grub screws  :headscratch:



They are available :)
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on February 29, 2016, 08:48:18 PM
What size is the hex socket in the head?  I will let you bring 6 down on Friday  :naughty:.

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on February 29, 2016, 08:53:32 PM
Hex head? Stuarts have never used hex head grub screws :ShakeHead:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on February 29, 2016, 08:54:03 PM
I can make my own slotted ones  :ShakeHead:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 29, 2016, 10:23:26 PM
Now it is time to think about more castings  :whoohoo:

There is just no hope for her.  :ShakeHead:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on March 01, 2016, 01:18:03 PM
There is just no hope for her.  :ShakeHead:

I realised that years ago  ;)

So I have spent an entire hour turning five of those slithers of gunmetal to thickness and it is still going  :-\.  It is giving a very nice finish, unlike what I am expecting from one of the castings sets whose straps were clearly cast using slightly damp sand  >:(

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Alyn Foundry on March 01, 2016, 05:20:25 PM
The definition of " Green sand moulding " is " slightly damp ", wet perhaps or just  " soft rammed " ?

A picture tells a thousand words.   ;)

Kind regards, Graham.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on March 01, 2016, 06:07:18 PM
Hi Graham,

These are the offending marks. They are too deep and will still be there once taken to thickness  :disappointed:

The slices of bronze were easily held in a three jaw to take to 6mm thick. The castings were spaced off from the face of the four jaw and clamped tight and again taken to 6mm thick. This is still on going  :-\.

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on March 01, 2016, 06:23:23 PM
Bit of filler and coat of traditional red paint on the eccentrics and only you and Graham will know the flaws were ever there ;)
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Alyn Foundry on March 01, 2016, 06:36:46 PM
Thanks Jo.

Ah, the dreaded " Sand inclusion " those marks are caused by loose sand. If the moulder is a little lax in firming and or blowing out the mould bits can get carried into the cavity and spoil the casting.

All our plates had runner bar, ingates and nobs built in so all the moulder had to do was cut the " sprue ", blow out and close. This method reduces to a minimum the risk of sand inclusion.

I have attached a couple of photos of both sides of Plate RL 1 this clearly shows how it works plus the  "slip blanks " for true casting alignment.

Kind regards, Graham.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on March 01, 2016, 06:45:08 PM
Graham, In the past I have had similar looking holes in bronze castings but did not put them down to sand inclusions as they went deeper into the casting or in some cases were not even visible from the outside, what would you put these down to

Just starting to show in the middle of this casting

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Hit%20n%20Miss/1-3rd%20Galloway/IMAG1614_zps9ee8c33d.jpg)

And more horrors hidden inside

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Hit%20n%20Miss/1-3rd%20Galloway/IMAG1617_zps7ae3c0dd.jpg)

Maybe I should start that rougue casting thread rather than hijack Jo's

J
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Bluechip on March 01, 2016, 06:49:47 PM
What size is the hex socket in the head?  I will let you bring 6 down on Friday  :naughty:.

Jo

At the risk of being strung up for heresy, why not use m2.5 hex socket set screws? Apart from the fact you've now tapped them 7BA.

Readily available.  http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/M2-M3-M4-M5-M6-GRUB-SCREW-CUP-POINT-HIGH-TENSILE-14-9-SOCKET-SET-SCREW-ALLEN-/201388900461?var=&hash=item748ced5d90

I doubt anyone would know unless you told them.

A very itchy-scratchy Dave.

[ I have come to hate Radial-Arm saws and Chipboard ]  :cussing:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Alyn Foundry on March 01, 2016, 07:07:07 PM
Hello Jason.

I will remain silent, perhaps a new thread is pertinent?  ;)

Kind regards, Graham.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Roger B on March 01, 2016, 07:54:07 PM
As a complete novice to castings I would like any information (probably on a separate thread) that you can share  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on March 03, 2016, 01:19:55 PM
A quick update: Turning the eccentrics to thickness is on going, two more to go before I can change machining operations  :-\

Smelly tells me he has someone coming to visit him tomorrow afternoon, he's probably right I can't see my visitor wanting to be caught showing Mr Silky any attention  :lolb:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on March 03, 2016, 01:27:34 PM
Don't think I'll even bother with smelly as I honed the Allman cylinder the other weekend. You only want someone to get oily with you anyway.

Hurry up and get those straps done before I start poking silky's buttons and loose your settings :LittleDevil:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on March 03, 2016, 01:37:30 PM
Mr Silky has knobs: Knobs that are very nicely hand sized and in just the right place :embarassed:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 03, 2016, 03:12:44 PM
 :lolb: :lolb: :lolb:

bad bad bad
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on March 03, 2016, 03:44:02 PM
 :facepalm: Zee you are getting the wrong end of the stick. He's got more knobs than I have hands for.

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on March 03, 2016, 04:06:25 PM
I was talking about the buttons you had to add to him as his knobs and handwheels were not accurate enough :mischief:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on March 03, 2016, 04:19:56 PM
No they are just in inferior measurements

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on March 03, 2016, 04:55:10 PM
All the straps are to thickness and one still has that casting mark on the surface  >:(

My plan had been to take the straps to 33mm wide but as you can see one of them is already undersized, taking it to 32mm will put the edge of the bolts very close to the edge  :wallbang:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on March 03, 2016, 05:31:04 PM
Close but should be OK as you still have room for the heads even across the corners with with a bit of room to spare. Infact they are closer to the sides than the edge if you go with 1 1/4 (32mm)
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Alyn Foundry on March 03, 2016, 05:41:48 PM
Jo.

Won't that mark disappear when you mill the slot ?

Jason.

I've PM'd you.

Kind regards, Graham.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on March 03, 2016, 06:07:24 PM
Won't that mark disappear when you mill the slot ?

I remain hopeful  ;)

Jo

P.S. Sorry Zee I decided against showing you a pictures of Mr Silky's vary speed knobs as I thought too much machine tool porn is not good for you :lolb:.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on March 03, 2016, 06:18:45 PM
I suppose you could mill it out and solder in a bit of similar material if you think it will still show.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on March 03, 2016, 07:24:39 PM
Not as much as the dirty black line from the silver solder will in a few years time  :facepalm2:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 03, 2016, 11:01:53 PM
P.S. Sorry Zee I decided against showing you a pictures of Mr Silky's vary speed knobs as I thought too much machine tool porn is not good for you :lolb:.

Thanks. When you oiled him I nearly lost my mind.
But I've recovered.  :naughty:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: rhankey on March 04, 2016, 01:16:07 AM
Be aware the bolt holes comes very close to the eccentric groove.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on March 04, 2016, 03:25:23 AM
Thanks Robin  :) I was already planning on moving them out to 26mm to give another 0.3mm of clearance.

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on March 04, 2016, 07:18:10 AM
Thanks. When you oiled him I nearly lost my mind.
But I've recovered.  :naughty:

Best I don't show you his favourite knob then or describe what I have to do with it for him everyday  :ShakeHead:   

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Stuart on March 04, 2016, 07:23:22 AM
Jo
Bet it's on the saddle then

Stuart
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on March 09, 2016, 01:25:21 PM
All but one of the embryonic straps are 32mm (the other is 31.5mm  :'( )

The bottom of the first strap was milled for the flats on either side and then the counterbore put in using a 4.76mm three flute cutter (until I realised it needed to be at least 5.5mm after I had finished doing one side and tried to fit the first bolts :facepalm:) Using the mill on high speed then the bolt hole was put in using the tapping size to 8mm depth.

Turn over and repeat for the other side taking the bolting surface to 14mm from the one just milled and drill through this time using the clearance drill the entire way through.

Using a piece of 6.35mm tool steel as a height gauge the first of the straps was split using a 1.2mm slitting saw. The two halves then being superglued and bolted back together. But not before I discovered that the 4.76mm counter bored was too small  :disappointed: I have now taken it out to 5.5mm and decided to make some undersized headed bolts and nuts  :-[

16 more to go before the next stage  ::)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on March 09, 2016, 07:18:44 PM
Nice split there gal  :cheers:. I'm glad to see some updates,  thought you were in the south of France,  on a yacht,  on holiday  :stir: :lolb: Can't believe you parted wit teh Redwing castings  :smokin2: :facepalm: :facepalm2:. .

Big E
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on March 09, 2016, 07:45:17 PM
I'm open to offers  :mischief:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on March 09, 2016, 10:40:08 PM
For the yacht holiday  or another set of Redwing castings?  :lolb:

Big E
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 09, 2016, 10:44:41 PM
She's already on the hook for curry and wine.  ;D
I just have to get myself over there.  :???:

Just so you know Jo...my job may take me to Manchester.
And while you say that's 'too far'...you just don't know a mid-westerner and what distance means.  :naughty:
"Just down the road" to us may be hours of driving to others.  :Lol:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on March 10, 2016, 07:46:22 AM
For the yacht holiday  or another set of Redwing castings?  :lolb:

Those castings  :facepalm: I was offered them for a price so they were delivered so I could make friends with them. Clearly someone saw them arrive and next thing I knew there were two higher offers on the table  :o One of which was just short of what I could buy them new  :headscratch: So it was a no brainer: let them pay for an old set of castings  which had lots of flashing, a coarse sand finishing, cast in the UK not US, with no come back if there was any problems or buy a new set as and when I needed them. Knowing my luck another two sets will turn up in a few weeks  ;)

Zee it is over 4 hours each way, without traffic  :-[ Maybe if you can plan to be here for the Midlands show in October then you will get to see the show and lots of fellow MEM'ers  8)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 10, 2016, 10:54:33 AM
Zee it is over 4 hours each way, without traffic  :-[ Maybe if you can plan to be here for the Midlands show in October then you will get to see the show and lots of fellow MEM'ers  8)

Not a bad idea!

And 4 hours is just round the corner in my world.  ;D
One of the few cases where it's all about the destination and not the road.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on March 15, 2016, 05:17:27 PM
Everything seems to take forever  :paranoia:

So finally all the straps are split. They have been temporarily joined together using some 2.5mm cheese head screws  :facepalm2: So I must get on and make some proper bolts for them using my House Lathe  ;)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Don1966 on March 15, 2016, 05:41:48 PM
Jo you have fast become one of my hero's on here. You sure know how to make swarf and you go girl. Awesome bit of machining.

Don
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: steve-de24 on March 15, 2016, 07:06:34 PM
Hi Jo, nice work - your posts always make interesting reading.
I use HSS lathe tools on my Cowells but I'd like to know what are the carbide tools you are using (if you can recommend them!).
Regards,
Steve
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on March 15, 2016, 07:31:03 PM
Thanks Don and Steve  :) 

Steve that is one of my Sumitomo tipped  tools, they are very nice  :embarassed: I also normally use HSS but for doing all of these I wanted something to shift a lot of metal without needing resharpening

36 bolts ready to go on the straps ;)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on March 18, 2016, 02:44:01 PM
I used a stencil to roughly mark where the bore was going. Then mounted each up on the four jaw, centred and bored them to fit an eccentric.

Then using an internal grooving tool cut the inner groove. The good news being that the groove did not break through into the bolt holes  :pinkelephant:

So what did I learn? Maybe the diameter could do with another 0.05mm on it as it closes up a fraction once parted  and there is no reason for the groove to be dead on diameter a bit of extra oil space won't do any harm. Same goes with the width of the slit :thinking:.

And I might pair them up as I go.

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on March 21, 2016, 04:08:23 PM
The eccentrics made from the bar stock are proving to be easier to machine than the castings. It is very important to measure and check that the hole is dead central otherwise the undercut breaks through into the mounting screw hole  :Doh:

Nearly half way  :(.

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on March 22, 2016, 02:19:25 PM
That's over  ;D

Now I need a mandrel for the rotary table  :thinking:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Alan Haisley on March 22, 2016, 03:29:35 PM
That's over  ;D

Now I need a mandrel for the rotary table  :thinking:

Jo
I was just wondering about that, Jo. The outsides will be cleaned/shaped using a RT then? Will you be able to produce sharp internal corners or just leave a radius?
(I'd be terrified if I were doing those. So many, just alike. Chance after chance to get in a hurry and mess one up.)

Alan
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on March 22, 2016, 05:07:26 PM
Hi Alan, thanks for following along  :)

There are three options for the outside:

1, Hand file  :hellno:

2, The way I would normally do it using a rotary table and the vertical head.

3, On a rotary table using the new slotting head. Which I am told will do the outside of these easy peasy  :noidea:

The new machine will be arriving before I can make any more swarf 

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Stuart on March 22, 2016, 06:04:50 PM
Jo

Don't forget to put your clean pinny on to welcome the new resident
Oops that was when you brought home your first wage packet ( when wages were paid in LSD )

That slotting head will come in very handy for key ways and many more slotting jobs , rotary table with slotter and you can cut internal splines or gears with the correct cutter , very useful but slow .

I tip my head over and use a variant of the Mr Meeks design as shown in his book

Stuart
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: NickG on March 22, 2016, 06:14:38 PM
Could you get a sharp corner in them by mounting the rotary table vertically? Or can't you really cut a curved surface with the end of an end mill? If you could , could do them all on one go on a long mandrel supported by a tailstock!
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on March 22, 2016, 06:44:59 PM
Yep with the rotary table vertical and the cutter offset from the ctr line by half its dia you can get right into a corner.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Engineering/Jowitt%20MkII/DSC00608_zpsnonytswy.jpg)

Really wants two ops one with it horizontal as that is the quickest to cut the curve and does not leave any facets, then setup to do the corners with it vertical.

Biggest problem will be keeping them together as they are not soldered and the nuts will get in the way when cutting  :ShakeHead:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: NickG on March 22, 2016, 10:58:56 PM
Thought I'd seen it  somewhere! Good point, that will be a right pain in the neck, would soft solder be strong enough to use an expanding mandrel? Will need some way of stopping them rotating. Maybe some washers the right size, a bit of studding and nuts to clamp them all together, would have to get them pretty tight though and probably quite difficult to line them up.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on March 23, 2016, 07:41:04 AM
Better with a washer to hold them down rather than an expanding mandrel, not so bad on larger eccentrics as you can get a pair of clamps in and still leave room for the cutter. This one is soldered but I used clamps as well for good measure

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Engineering/Tidman%20Organ%20Engine/Tid154_zpskac0d8fi.jpg)

Personally as these are so small I'd do what I could with the R/R horizontal using a small 3mm cutter and just give them a quick lick with a file to remove the internal fillets, infact that is what I did on teh one above.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on March 28, 2016, 01:19:24 PM
For the first attempt on the gash strap   :-\ I relied on super glue and the strength of the clamp and that did not prove to be adequate. So now I am leaving the screws in place and finishing the corners with a file, which I was going to have to do anyway.

The other side is a bit more tricky  :headscratch: There is no dimension for the width where the rod goes so I chose 8mm as a starting point but some of these castings look to already be under that  :ShakeHead: Using the rounding mandrel in the dividing head the arm spigot was taken to 6mm longer than the outer radi and then either side milled to leave the 8mm. Then back to the BCA to have that last little bit rounded before finishing with a file.

16 more to go   ::)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on March 30, 2016, 05:18:36 PM
I might have got the knack of those  :thinking:.

Before going any further on the straps I need to investigate the rods there is some offsetting that I need to understand :noidea:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Bluechip on March 30, 2016, 07:14:37 PM
I might have got the knack of those  :thinking:.
Jo

Looking good.   

I have to admire your perseverance. I'd have been tempted to launch the whole shooting match long ago.  ;D

Anyway, crack on. I'm sure you'll sort the rods.   :ThumbsUp:

Having spent today fooling with fence panels I shall amuse myself this evening with a couple of beers while I'm harvesting splinters from me paws ...  :cheers:

Dave
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 30, 2016, 11:06:19 PM
Looks great!
You must be pleased. So many of them!
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: yogi on March 31, 2016, 01:12:04 AM
Fantastic work!  :ThumbsUp:
It's very impressive the amount of work you are doing.
I'm following along with interest, and thank you very much for sharing.  :cheers:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on March 31, 2016, 07:23:51 AM
Thanks Guys for having the patience to follow along  ;D.

Dave these engines are trying my patience and using up my metal stocks again as I need 18 rods.  Luckily some lovely man dropped off a bundle of 3/8" square steel 5ft of which is volunteering to become the rods.

Zee I am not sure if the quantity of each part is still inspiring me but the idea of only having 3 sets of cylinders is looking nice until I spotted they need 149 cover studs  :paranoia: I will admit that I am seriously considering another test drive of my latest acquisition on one of the other casting sets. Of course this is only so that I learn how to use my new machine  :embarassed:

Zee when are you hoping to get your new mill? 

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on March 31, 2016, 07:51:47 AM
Are you going to cook those first Jo or hope they don't add the offset by themselves?

Looking at the drawing I wonder if the 1/32" slope of the rod could be done away with which would speed up production, more like the one in the bottom of this photo. At least all six are the same, it would be a right pain if the six were each slightly different.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Fowler%20A7/PICT0103.jpg)

J
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on March 31, 2016, 08:08:06 AM
No I am not worried about the rods bending they are being machined all over and with the number I am doing will get a bit of resting time between stages  :embarassed: And if the worst comes to the worst at 1.6mm thick I can bend them straight  ;)

Looking at the drawing I wonder if the 1/32" slope of the rod could be done away with which would speed up production, more like the one in the bottom of this photo.

That's not a slope that is just a 0.8mm offset, everything has to remain square

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on March 31, 2016, 08:37:33 AM
I know the sides of the fork and palm where the shaft fits into the strap have to be square, all the 1/32" does is put the end of the rod slightly more central to the U shape.

To my eye the offset needs to be 3/64" which is done by bending, if you do it 1/32" the two forks won't be in the same plane

Plot it out in cubify and see what offset it comes out at.

I know you will be machining the parts all over but you will be taking a lot more off one side than the other due to the position of the fork which generally results in a bannana
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on March 31, 2016, 08:44:38 AM
I drew it out using Crap-O-Cad and the 0.8mm is spot on.

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on March 31, 2016, 09:01:45 AM
Well if you use a thicker rod like you have then the offset from the bottom of the milled hole will be different

0.8 + 2 = 2.8mm

3/64 + 1/16 = 7/64 = .109 or 2.78mm

Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on March 31, 2016, 09:14:25 AM
Well if you use a thicker rod like you have then the offset from the bottom of the milled hole will be different

The rod is 1.6mm thick. Where did you get 2mm?  :headscratch:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on March 31, 2016, 10:16:47 AM
My Mistake I thought the recess for the rod was also cut 1.6mm deep so it ended up flush with the outside but its not. Kook 4 away from 6 on your COC and got 2  :-[

Carry on a you were as that is where the extra 0.4 (1/64) difference is.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: PJW on March 31, 2016, 11:28:14 AM
Hi Jo, is that crap-O-cad? I didn't know I had that. they are looking good so far, up to your usual high standard.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 31, 2016, 11:47:15 AM
Zee when are you hoping to get your new mill? 

I had hoped by next month. But a roof and chimney have gotten in the way not to mention T got laid off.  :'(
Just a delay. T has started consulting and work is coming in. But then there's my daughter's wedding coming up.  :facepalm2:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on May 02, 2016, 02:35:16 PM
The slots on the eccentric arms seemed to take forever being that they are so small. I used the same jig to mill the side profiles. Jason seemed to get his wish and after the first cut there seems to be a slight bend on the arm but having started doing the other side it has corrected itself  ;).


The good news is I have found a home for the first of these engines  :whoohoo:


After this coffee I must go and do the sides of the other 13 rods  :-\

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on May 08, 2016, 12:13:25 PM
The rods continue  :( I keep telling myself that these are the worse part all the others (excluding fastners) only need up to 3 per engine and not six  :)

Same jig, this time tilted a little, a gash rod used to check the angle  :facepalm2: then a second spare rod to get it right  :facepalm:

On we go, 12 more sides then a bit of rounding to do  :paranoia:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Roger B on May 08, 2016, 08:06:05 PM
So when you have finished these three you will be in the right mental state for a 9 cylinder radial/rotary  :)  :)  :stir:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on May 08, 2016, 08:48:39 PM
Strangely enough Roger a friend asked me to think about what items of his I might like to inherit from him. So I started wondering how many radial/rotary engines he might have, a second Cirrus or Gypsy might be nice :noidea:, then I started thinking about all the repetition :toilet_claw:

I have finished one of the rods but another 17 to go, then I am promising myself some nice castings as a reward for all this hard work  :whoohoo:

Jo

Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on May 09, 2016, 07:06:38 PM
Four links have now been rounded but then the need to fondle the castings got the better of me  :embarassed: Lucky 3's cylinders have several unique features that will need looking at:


a, The four bolt holes between the cylinders leave space for adjustment  This is going to have to be a positive fit. As a minimum a dowel or two are needed but we must watch the alignment of the centre of the bores.

b, There seems to have been an extra four mounting studs on the LP valve face for the chest that need filling

c, And as expected the set of covers only fit one way and the crosshead guide bar offset seems to be different on each of the cylinders  (We will consider the valve chests later).

d, The mounting holes I think were drilled by who ever drilled the ones in the soleplate. 


The other castings sets are ok and I seem to have a couple of spare covers but not enough to make a new set to overcome that random offset to the slide bars. First up I need to start thinking about the jig but I will not be able to use that until the two new cylinder sets are together and lucky 3's cylinder joining is sorted out  :thinking:.

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on May 10, 2016, 12:00:16 PM
 :thinking: We need to get the cylinder castings into one piece, so our first step is to understand how much spare metal is available on each of the Cylinder castings:

From the drawing IP/LP  needs to be 106.36 long and 42.86mm high, the castings are: 111.3/46.5, 109/45 and lucky 3 = 106.57/43.2. As Lucky 3 is already machined the 0.3 is ok but  :o that 45 is a bit close for a rough casting surface.

Next One HP needs to be 53.98 long and 42.86 high, we have 59.1/47.3, 56.6/44.7 and lucky 53.95/43.2. So Lucky 3 HP has one dimension that cannot be corrected if there is anything wrong but that one looks ok  :)

So first job is to try to gain some flat square surfaces by taking off the bare minimum of metal especially on that second set  :paranoia:

Jo

Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on May 10, 2016, 01:11:21 PM
 :thinking: The IP/LP cylinder pairs have had a quick skim and I have found a flaw right on the port on no 2's port face  :cussing: So the measurements have come down a bit, they are now: 110/45.5 and 108.27/44.45 respectively.

Next to have a skim of HP castings to see what horrors lurk there :paranoia:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on May 10, 2016, 04:08:20 PM
Looks like you have a couple of rouges there Jo ;)

If there is not enough metal on No2 then you could machine it down and fit a new portface into a recess with a couple of small CSK screws and some JBweld to keep it in place. Could even do the same with the whole bottom of that casting in the second photo but if its not much a bit of fudging of the piston thickness may allow you to have a short cylinder.

Castings - who'd have 'em :LittleDevil:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on May 10, 2016, 04:19:56 PM
Castings - who'd have 'em :LittleDevil:

I will, I will, send them all to me :Love:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: NickG on May 10, 2016, 07:21:13 PM
Might as well chuck it out! ;-)

Sent from my LG-H340n using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on May 10, 2016, 08:11:35 PM
The HP cylinders proved to be better and have come down to 56/45.15 and 55.4/43.9. The only issue is going to be that the steam chest is not deep enough on one of them.

So the next stage is to work out where the bores are going to go relative to the outside of the casting and the location of the lugs. It proved that there is sufficient metal to move the bores around a bit so I ended up adjusting the metal to come off based on the lug positions.

Then it was begin to fix it time. First the offending LP port had a channel milled across it. I know there is 0.5mm of metal to come off so I milled a 2.5mm deep channel and made a Cast Iron slipper which has been 638'ed into position so that's not going anywhere.

Then I tried some studs in those threads in lucky 3's IP cylinder  :facepalm2: No wonder it only had three screws holding it together there is not enough space for a screw head for the fourth screw  :disappointed: The least I could do was to fill up the holes where the original builder had attempted to mount the HP cylinder on the LP port face. They will be cut off later once the 601 has cured.

Leaving me with some decisions to make about how to mount these cylinder pairs together. The Allen screws are nice and small but I am not sure if I can get a key in there if I don't shorten it. The cheese heads might be better  :thinking:.

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: AOG on May 10, 2016, 09:18:40 PM
Assuming that the cylinders don't have to come apart again I have a somewhat radical suggestion. Mount them together with reduced hex HI-LOKS. They should do the trick.

Tony
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 11, 2016, 01:14:42 AM
to see what horrors lurk there :paranoia:

Won't be me. But I'm around.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on May 11, 2016, 07:45:11 AM
Hi Tony, the gap between the two castings contains the IP slide valve, so there is the potential for the two cylinder sets to need to come apart in the future  :-\.


Hi Zee don't worry I won't be calling you a little horror ;)


Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on May 12, 2016, 01:37:44 PM
More fixing  :paranoia:   Start by making the holes bigger, truly round and make a bit more space behind the holes. Make a little hat out of cast iron and fettle to fit.

Another 7 to do  ;)

Jo

Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Alan Haisley on May 12, 2016, 04:04:27 PM
...
Leaving me with some decisions to make about how to mount these cylinder pairs together. The Allen screws are nice and small but I am not sure if I can get a key in there if I don't shorten it. The cheese heads might be better  :thinking:.

Jo
Would round-head Allen wrenches let you get in to them? Personally I have pretty much given up on screws that need flat blades. It seems that they require extremely good alignment of the driver blade with the screw.
Alan
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Bluechip on May 12, 2016, 05:05:09 PM
Jo, have you got one of these ?

Xcelite Ratchet hex driver.

Shown with a 2.5mm AF bit.

Appears to have circa 30 deg. swing per click ...

Dave

Looks like Rolson do a similar item ...

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0077LGRDO/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_dp_ss_1?pf_rd_p=569136327&pf_rd_s=lpo-top-stripe&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_i=B0002JT7Q2&pf_rd_m=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&pf_rd_r=T7WTX0RE8Y365PNGDQ87

Although not too sure about their stuff, some remarkably good for the money but other stuff ... well ... not .. :headscratch:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on May 12, 2016, 06:08:47 PM
Jo, have you got one of these ? Xcelite Ratchet hex driver.

No Dave it is a good idea but the allen screw head will be up against the cylinder so the best I can see fitting in there is going to be a ball ended allen driver like Alan mentioned  :)


I am pleased to say the scary bit is nearly over all the holes have been bunged up. The threads in the other side were too tight to the outside to be able to fit top hats so I have threaded some CI and 638 loctited everything into place. Now they need leaving for a few days to go really solid. I might add some JB Weld in places to smooth things but not until the 638 has fully gone off.

So it is now back to rounding those never ending arms  :-\

Jo

Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Bluechip on May 12, 2016, 06:34:48 PM
Ah well. Hard to really visualise the problem so I thought it worth a mention ..  :ThumbsUp:

As Stuart and I would say " Iv'ry egg's norra bod. "  or " Every egg is not a bird." for more up-market folk ...

Dave
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on May 15, 2016, 10:36:12 AM
The end of each rod was first hacksawed to remove the mounting lug. Then a quick rounding on the BCA. Notice I have marked the top with marker pen to help me see how far round the cut has gone  ;). Over to the vice and anoint with marker pen. Blend the rod and the curves. Countersink for the screws.

That seemed to take forever  :disappointed: I think I deserve some nice castings to play with  :)

Jo

Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Roger B on May 15, 2016, 12:15:09 PM
Coming along  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp: Are the ones top left the originals with the 'special features'?
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on May 15, 2016, 12:36:36 PM
Are the ones top left the originals with the 'special features'?

Thanks Roger  :) Yes those are lucky 3's original rods. They will be going in the "rummage box" for the Guildford show so attendees can admire them ::)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on May 28, 2016, 04:57:56 PM
Another of those little challenges that these engines keep throwing up: bolting both halves together:

It was not the drilling of the end that was the problem  :ShakeHead: it was not the milling of the missing ports  :ShakeHead: It was when you came to try to get space for the screw heads :Doh:

A bit of fine milling has been done remembering that the valve chest wall is only 2mm thick by the screw and that finding hard bits in the cast Iron are character building  ::)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on May 29, 2016, 11:11:24 AM
Skim, skim skim, skim it is times like this that it is so nice to have a power feed  8)

Clamping each of the two cylinder sets that need taking to height first the right way round the top surfaces are milled smooth as a babys  :censored: this is done very carefully bit by bit as there is only 1.4mm total to come off top and bottom faces so it was a case of cut a bit, see what didn't cut, dig out a feeler gauge put a machinists level on the top and measure the gap. Add the extra cut and off we go again on a nice slow speed.

Numero Uno's cylinder set has come down to height with no marks remaining  :whoohoo: Next one..... then I need to decide if I want to take Lucky's down that last 0.3mm with a skim  :thinking:

One of the advantages of all these facing cuts is I may yet have the workshop tidy enough to update its photo's in my "My shed" thread  :naughty:

Jo

P.S. Yes I stressed "machinists level" as I also have an engineers one  :facepalm:  :disappointed:

Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on May 29, 2016, 12:59:45 PM
First I got worried when the port broke through the top of the casting  :( But comparing it with lucky 3 by the time the boring is done what is left will be under the cover.

However Having taken the two cylinder sets to 42.98mm I discovered Tgs bed is not true  :wallbang: the other end of the cylinder was luckily over thickness at 43.08mm. So the bed was trued up and a 0.06mm skim taken across the face.

Next up setting the cylinders up for boring  :paranoia:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on May 29, 2016, 03:37:53 PM
In the end I decided to give lucky 3 a quick skim and took an extra 0.1mm off both sides to bring that set down to the same size as the other 2.


I next blued up the bottom face and marked the centre line of the casting based on the two end face (not the scruffy cylinder bores  :hellno: ). I now needed three parallels and they normally come in sets of two  :-\ the answer to this is to use ground tool steel but you still have to make sure they are all the same size as they vary from face to face and if you are using tool steel for parallels remember it is not forgiving on tools so be very careful where you put it.Then using a square on the vertical face of Tgs the casting was clamped down and the wobbler's point tool mounted up and I checked that it followed the centre line that had previously been marked on it and the Y axis of the DRO zeroed.

Swopping over wobbler tools the end of the casting was found and the metal still to come off subtracted allowing me to zero the X axis on the DRO.

Before proceeding I remounted the pointer tool and traversed it to each of the mounting positions. I was a bit shocked to find that the right hand hole was off the end of the casting  :paranoia: A few moments of panic later I found that I had wrongly used 58.98 rather than 53.98  :)

The boring head is all mounted up and we are ready for tomorrow  :cartwheel:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Bluechip on May 29, 2016, 03:42:19 PM
Hi Jo

What, bed not true ?? 'Chinese' not true or does it tilt like a ( some ) drilling machine tables. ??

What's the difference between a machinists' level and an engineer's level ?

I could see either may be more accurate than my weapon of choice, a 4' Stabilo   :headscratch:

Nice progress BTW ...  :ThumbsUp:   Looking good ...  :praise2: 

Dave
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on May 29, 2016, 03:58:06 PM
Hi Dave, Tgs is a Universal milling machine so his bed tilts front back/side to side. The table does have a set of taper pins to square it up but their accuracy could be better  :-\

The difference between the two types of level is the shape of the bubble: the engineer's one is not as accurate  :ShakeHead:

Thanks for following along Dave.  :drinking-41:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Dave Otto on May 29, 2016, 04:49:12 PM
The cylinder blocks are looking great Jo!


Dave
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on May 30, 2016, 10:01:49 AM
Thanks Dave, Now for the exciting bit: Power feeding into the bed  :o

Some of you will recall that H has a manual Z axis feed which while giving a full set of speeds controllable by ear  ;) the prospect of doing six bores 40+mm long would have taken it out of my left arm  :facepalm2: However Tgs has a power feed and whilst not fully independently variable like Mr Silky, he is provided with a good selection of speeds and will be doing the boring for me :)

I am using the Vertex boring head to do this as it is easy to set as it has this little dial on the front that lets you accurately dial in cuts down to 0.01mm on bore diameter. The only problem is that you have to be able to get at it, which on H would mean yanking the head round but Tgs has a little lever on the right hand side of his ram that disconnects the drive to the vertical head so it is easy to turn round to get at the feed screw on the boring head  8).

Initially it was a bit exciting doing the boring as there was a few "lumpy bits" sticking into the bore of the casting and of course they were hard and making nasty noises as the cutter went down  :paranoia: He is now clear of those and his stops are set so I might trust him to get on with it and I will see if there is something else I can do in the mean time   :naughty:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on May 30, 2016, 10:24:23 AM
Jo is that quill feed down or table feed up that you are using?
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on May 30, 2016, 10:39:29 AM
Tgs doesn't have a quill power feed only a bed power feed  ;)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on May 30, 2016, 02:19:35 PM
Progress is slow because I don't want to rush things  :hellno:

All three bores are in and the mounting screw holes have been drilled. The next job is drilling all the tapping holes for the cylinder head studs  :facepalm:

First a nice cuppa to calm the nerves ::)

Jo

P.S. It sounds like Tgs previous owner has found a set of indexing plates for his original indexer so the plan is to make him a full set of plates  8).
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on May 30, 2016, 04:50:03 PM
I got back in the workshop to find the moles had been at my casting  ::) About now Deja-vu set in  :facepalm:

The casting has been squared up and the LP cylinder is bored. I decided enough for today best leave the workshop before you make mistakes.  :paranoia:

Jo

P.S. I might be lucky I put the Numero Uno cynider set on top of Lucky 3's and it looks like all the pillar holes/ovals are in the right place  :)
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on May 31, 2016, 09:01:39 AM
Looking at the drawings for the cylinder covers the dimensions of the inner faces is missing  :(

One is to fit the bore and there is no depth figure for that  :ShakeHead: so I am going with 1.6mm Then there is that central boss  :headscratch: Looking at the cross section of the engine it would seem that they need to be profiled so that the pistons miss them. It would have been so easy if they provided all the (correct) dimensions.

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on May 31, 2016, 09:43:13 AM
It would have been so easy if they provided all the (correct) dimensions.

Jo

But where is the fun in that ;)

Agree it looks like 1/16" to fit bore and 1/8" to fill the void in the piston, subject to any under size on teh cylinder casting height as you will have less clearance at the ends
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on May 31, 2016, 04:35:41 PM
The moles, the moles, more mole hills all over my last cylinder casting  :facepalm: they will have to wait till another day before they can try the other side as the workshop has now turned into what Big E would call a "cover shop".

I am sure you are all thinking 6 of them are already machined up  :ShakeHead: what you are not allowing for is the features  :Doh: The two pairs of covers that share the same stud are different thicknesses. None of them have had the underside taken to the correct distances and I am guessing that the central boss has just been taken down to remove the casting marks. And someone forgot the counter bore for the nut.

On a new casting none of this is a problem, they are very easy you can even cheat  :naughty: but on the old covers you have to make sure they are running true before you re-machine them.

The cheat's way of doing these is to mount them in a three jaw, underside out using a drill chuck to square the face up when you tighten the jaws on the chuck. Turn Mr Silky on and check it looks about right  ;) then from the inner (smallest) most face: face it, this is our first datum - it will go in a mo. Then take the first boss machining so that it is circular leaving oversize and goes in at least 3.2mm. Step in again face to remove the marks and do the next boss over sized and face to the outer diameter of the cover. Now we know how deep the casting is and can use this shortly as our next datum.   As long as the boss which goes into the cylinder is over depth turn this to be a nice fit in the cylinder and then finish under the bolting surface. This is now the datum for all other depth measurements.

Face the next inner surface to 1.6mm from the underside of the cover, turn the central boss to the diameter to fit into the cylinder and join it with the 1.6mm face (this is not a bolting face) and face to a depth of 4.76 from the bolting flange. The last step is to use a 10mm milling cutter to counter bore for the nuts in the middle of the piston.

 The top faces so far have not been touched and I have started on the lower covers. These are going to be much more interesting  ;D

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: gbritnell on May 31, 2016, 05:59:40 PM
Hi Jo,
I see by the drawing that there is a valve cavity between the high and intermediate pressure cylinders. Being as the cylinder block is one piece I'm assuming that the cavity in question has to be cored into the casting. My conundrum is that I see no core print on the top of the cylinder which would have held the core so I'm wondering how they would have cored that area out. Furthermore, how does one machine that valve face and insert the valve?
gbritnell
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on May 31, 2016, 06:09:59 PM
Hi George,

The cylinder casting is in two pieces, the joint being the intermediate valve face and held together by four screws.

I have to decide if the two halves will need pinning together as they have to be taken apart to put the valve in the hole.

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: gbritnell on May 31, 2016, 11:29:32 PM
Thanks Jo,
An option to pinning is to use a hollow dowel at 2 of the mounting screws, generally diagonally. They only need a .015 wall and be .040 deep in both pieces.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on June 01, 2016, 01:53:11 PM
 :facepalm: The joys of orphaned castings sets. Lucky 3's covers had a number of features:

i, The counterbores for the glands were not deep enough,
ii, Two of the covers did not actually fit in their bores.
iii, None are 'over' diameter
iv, Thankfully 4 out of the six had a bit to come off their flanges.

This initial stage is not really exciting  :ShakeHead: the only cover to watch is the intermediate with the boss on it because if you try to mount it in a set of outside jaws it is just the right size to clamp between the jaws just before the outside of the cover.

I still have to titivate the top covers  :-\ so I can't see anything else getting done today and it won't tomorrow as I am going to visit some other castings  :embarassed:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on June 03, 2016, 12:39:45 PM
Having yesterday rescued another set of orphans  ::) today we are back on the cylinder covers.

I am using the BCA with a four jaw SC chuck mounted in the centre of the bed. This lets me wiz round the rim of the smaller covers to get rid of that horrible ridge and line up all nice and square for milling the bracket for the guide bars. The good news is that the brackets on lucky 3 seem to be at the right offset distance from the centre of the cover  ;D

Once those are done the cover is in the correct alignment to drill the holes, making sure you don't try drilling into the jaws on the chuck  :o of course this means that on the covers that need the corner machined off one of the holes is not fully through and needs finishing with a needle file.

Only 9 more covers to go  :Doh:

Jo

Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: steamer on June 03, 2016, 01:59:50 PM
Nice set up Jo!

Dave
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on June 03, 2016, 04:35:10 PM
Thanks Dave, a couple more to end the day  ;).

Before we leave the covers a reminder if you are doing one of your own make sure you cut the flats on the right sides of the LP and IP covers. I chose to mark mine up as the two are differently handed. Thankfully it only makes a difference on the bottom covers.

About now I remembered that I had forgotten to drill the holes in the top of the cylinder  :ShakeHead: To do this I have made up a jig to hold the cylinder sets using the column holes to mount the cylinders on the jig. I was a little worried that here may be some play as I drilled the holes 4.1mm and the Allen screws are 4mm but there is no movement. So First cylinder ready to be attacked by the moles in the morning.

Jo

Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on June 04, 2016, 04:13:31 PM
The moles have done their work so next up is to counter bore the mounting flanges to width. These varied from 4mm up to 6mm The important thing is that they should be the right thickness to get the nut spacing right on the top of the columns. Two of them are a bit close to the cylinder so I will have to return to those later.

While the jig was set up I used it to bore through the oval mounting holes on lucky 3 and put in some bushes using 308 Loctite.

I am pleased to say that all of the cylinder sets fit on any of the bases  8)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Roger B on June 04, 2016, 07:42:37 PM
 :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp:  :wine1:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Bluechip on June 04, 2016, 09:09:40 PM
 :whoohoo: 

Beginning to look just the dog's wotsits now ..  :ThumbsUp:

Just been through a fair bit of this thread. Quite a saga ..

I really have to admire your persistence ..  :praise2: No way I could have done it.

Now have to do something I've not done since my RAF days. Sew a button on my trousers...
Back to the 'Metric v Inferial' thing I fear.
A metre of belly and a yard of waistband seems to be the problem ...  :headscratch:
Ah well .. character building maybe ...

Dave





Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: zeeprogrammer on June 04, 2016, 10:30:02 PM
Wow. Seems like there's bit a whole lot of progress.

Sure is looking good.

The engine.

We don't get a lot of other pictures.  :naughty:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: derekwarner on June 05, 2016, 01:55:16 AM
Progress is good Jo.... :ThumbsUp:...

1. Will you be using a paper gasket or Hylomar type sealant at the joint between the intermediate valve chest & the balance of the cylinder block?..as even a 0.004" thick paper gasket will move the vertical axis between the HP cylinder & IP +LP bores by the same amount....
 
2. I see the bolts you mention, are they 'fitted bolts' or will you be doweling to maintain alignment between the cylinder bore axis?

Derek
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on June 05, 2016, 07:46:56 AM
:whoohoo: 

Beginning to look just the dog's wotsits now ..  :ThumbsUp:

Just been through a fair bit of this thread. Quite a saga ..

I really have to admire your persistence ..  :praise2: No way I could have done it.

Dave

Thanks Dave, they are teaching me lots of patience  ::) and I am learning lots about my new milling machine  :cartwheel:


Wow. Seems like there's bit a whole lot of progress.

Sure is looking good.

The engine.

We don't get a lot of other pictures.  :naughty:

Thanks Zee, yes it does seem that you spend ages then suddenly a couple of pieces fit together and it looks like you may have achieved something. There won't be a lot for the next few weeks as I have to prepare these engines and a few others to show at the Guildford show on the 4th and 5th July.

 :noidea: I am not sure what other pictures you want. There have been lots of pictures here of the details of these engines and not a lot of response, I've updated my shed photos so you can see how the workshop has evolved and the No 9 has its own thread  ;) I could provide some garden pictures but there are lots of weeds around at the moment, I really should be out there taking control of things rather than playing in the workshop  :paranoia:



Thanks Derek, I think that "Wellseal" will be in order. I am still thinking about the pinning I have lots of clock maker's pins and their reamers so they may be the order of the day.

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Roger B on June 05, 2016, 07:52:18 AM

but there are lots of weeds around at the moment,

Jo

Beware of the weeds, I have tennis elbow as the result of a weeding session at our house in England  :(
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on June 05, 2016, 08:36:30 AM
Beware of the weeds, I have tennis elbow as the result of a weeding session at our house in England  :(

Its not the weeds I worry about, when it gets this tall its the tigers: They hide in the long grass and pounce if you get too close  :paranoia:

We lost "Lulu" tiger a couple of years ago  :'( she used to sit next to me to keep my company when I was weeding, much to the disgust of my robin friend who likes to sit on the spade handle and supervise all weeding activities  8)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Chipswitheverything on June 05, 2016, 08:52:15 AM
....."There have been lots of pictures here of the details of these engines and not a lot of response......"

Hi Jo, your comprehensive build log of these engines has been highly interesting to me. It's a very valuable mine of information, and encouragement, too.  I have got a set of the Triple castings that I picked up cheaply on a market stall many years ago, old Henley castings and the other bits still in their packing.  When my present couple of Stuart projects are painted and finished off, I'm probably going to start on the triple.

  Haven't made comments on your triple triple build mostly because the full photos and documentation that you have provided about what you have done have answered the questions as the procedures have gone along.  When I make a start on the engine, I will be looking back at your build log frequently.

  With fellow forum member JR72, I hope to visit the Guildford show ( again ) in a few weeks, looking forward to seeing these engines which you will be bringing along, and hope to say hello if you are around.

Trying to keep my thoughts off the weeding:   now, that really is a difficult subject...!

Dave
 

Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on June 05, 2016, 09:17:44 AM
Thanks Dave,

  With fellow forum member JR72, I hope to visit the Guildford show ( again ) in a few weeks, looking forward to seeing these engines which you will be bringing along, and hope to say hello if you are around.

It will be nice to see you, please come and say hello. I am still deciding if I want to take one of my remaining Cowells lathe with me and to do some live stud turning :mischief:

Which reminds me 129 7BA cylinder cover studs are needed  :facepalm:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Vixen on June 05, 2016, 09:22:08 AM
Hello Dave,
When you visit the Guildford show next month, don't forget to to call by at the Internal Combustion Engine Builders Group (ICEBG) when you have had enough of talking with Jo and her MEM colleagues.  We should be on the opposite side of the big display marquee.

Cheers

Mike
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on June 05, 2016, 01:26:12 PM
Jo, you have neglected to take photos of food for Zee ;)

Very little machining for me this weekend as I have also been slapping a bit of paint onto an engine or two so they look presentable for Guildford :)
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Chipswitheverything on June 05, 2016, 01:27:24 PM
Hello Dave,
.... don't forget to to call by at the Internal Combustion Engine Builders Group (ICEBG) when you have had enough of talking with Jo and her MEM colleagues. 

Mike
[/quote]

Thanks for the welcome Mike.  I look in awe each year at the incredible skill exhibited in the engines that are on show in the ICEBG section of the Guildford marquee.
Dave
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on June 05, 2016, 01:43:23 PM
Jo, you have neglected to take photos of food for Zee ;)

But I don't have any cookies  :shrug: All I have is what the fellas have been trying to tempt me with  ::)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Flyboy Jim on June 05, 2016, 02:22:58 PM
Jo, you have neglected to take photos of food for Zee ;)

But I don't have any cookies  :shrug: All I have is what the fellas have been trying to tempt me with  ::)

Jo

Great picture since "Thornton" is my last name!  :LickLips:  Oh yeah............the castings are nice too!  ;)

Jim
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: zeeprogrammer on June 05, 2016, 03:47:33 PM
But I don't have any cookies. All I have is what the fellas have been trying to tempt me with

Thanks okay. I was thinking other cookies anyway.  ;D

Lots of nice treats there. As in all things, I hope you're pacing yourself.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: joe d on June 05, 2016, 04:38:46 PM
Nice work, Jo.

Still following along and learning lots from your set-ups and procedures.

Joe
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on June 05, 2016, 04:40:58 PM
Thanks Joe,

As with all things to do with these engines they all seem to have lots of parts  :facepalm: This is also true for the stands which are underway.

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: zeeprogrammer on June 05, 2016, 04:51:58 PM
Wow, that 'is' a lot of parts.

Did you have to tap all those blocks too?
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Dave Otto on June 05, 2016, 04:59:28 PM
Are the stands your own design or part of the original plans?

Dave
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on June 05, 2016, 05:37:25 PM
Wow, that 'is' a lot of parts.

Did you have to tap all those blocks too?

I will be  :Doh: I still have to drill another 28 through holes first.

Are the stands your own design or part of the original plans?

Hi Dave, thanks for dropping by. It is my own design based on the girder work you would find on board a ship  ;) I took the idea from the drawing of George shown here: http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,5354.msg105162.html#msg105162

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Dave Otto on June 05, 2016, 07:37:04 PM
I think that will look great.

Dave
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on June 07, 2016, 01:12:46 PM
Thanks Dave  :).

Why is it when you have limited time you choose to do things in a way that takes you longer then you really have  :ShakeHead: Any other person would be happy with screwing their engines down to a couple of old bits of fire wood but no I have to find something decorative to do with several meters of steel  :facepalm:

The first 1/2 stand is showing less progress than I would like  :disappointed: At least the flywheel doesn't hit  :).

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on June 07, 2016, 01:54:16 PM
Jo would it not be easier to join all the bits together and then set up that new machine with something tilted and let the power feed lop the end off all those blocks in one go?
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on June 07, 2016, 02:26:00 PM
I weighed that up: Tgs is still set up with the jig to sort out those rough cylinder mounting holes and will be needed to drill the base for these stands. Of course it is not as if I only have one mill  ::) and H not being a universal can safely take deeper cuts and also has the required power feed  ;).

And the angle is 60 degrees which is too steep for either of the tilting tables I have, it really needs an adjustable angle plate which would restrict the cutting depth and I have not made that yet.

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on June 07, 2016, 02:46:11 PM
Surely bolting it to a standard 90degree angle plate or anything with a right angle will turn that 60deg into 30deg which is within the tables range. Could even just clamp it side up in the vice.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on June 07, 2016, 03:21:12 PM
Surely bolting it to a standard 90degree angle plate or anything with a right angle will turn that 60deg into 30deg which is within the tables range. Could even just clamp it side up in the vice.

Yes my 250mm tilting table will bolt to Tgs vertical face and yes I could mount a 100mm vice on the tilting table.

It takes very little time to stick the 60 degree set square under each a bit of steel in the machine vice and use the shell mill cutter to slice the angle off. The time is the hacksawing off 68 pieces of steel, the drilling and tapping top and bottom, fettling the milled off edges, clearing out the through holes of swarf so they all look pretty.

After that is done I need to decide if I really want the top pieces of metal to look like an I beam  ::)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on June 07, 2016, 03:33:16 PM
I was just thinking of tilting teh main tabel, no need to take it right off and add a smaller one
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on June 07, 2016, 04:01:00 PM
 ::) Tgs bed is still set up with the jig for doing the cylinder/base casting work when I get time.

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Dave Otto on June 07, 2016, 05:21:43 PM
Hacksawing! All the goodies in your shed and you don't have a metal cutting band saw? :LittleDevil:

Dave
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on June 07, 2016, 06:15:03 PM
Hacksawing! All the goodies in your shed and you don't have a metal cutting band saw? :LittleDevil:

Dave

I have a 4" mechanical hacksaw  ;) It did a very good job cutting through all of those. But you still have to unclamp it, move the metal and clamp It up again after every cut. 

The couple of bits I did by hand were actually cut quicker  ::)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: zeeprogrammer on June 07, 2016, 11:52:11 PM
I like that last pic of yours. Looking really good.

 :popcorn: :popcorn:

Got a new supply of popcorn in.  ;D
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on June 10, 2016, 12:53:56 PM
One last job to free up Tgs: Using the same jig that the cylinders had their top studs drilled on the bases are being drilled to mount on the top beam of my chocolate bars  :naughty: And as no one came back on the suggestion as to shaping up the top bars or not I have made a decision on the way forward :ThumbsUp:

For those of you who may have been hoping to see the live turning event again at the Guildford show I'm sorry I have been turned down as only Jason and I have entered any models MEM is not to get their own tables this year and we are being put with the other stationary engines where my turning demonstration is not welcome :disappointed:

Jo

Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Vixen on June 10, 2016, 01:08:12 PM
Jo
That's bad news about not being allocated a MEM only table at Guildford, but at least they have tried to accommodate you on the stationary engine stand.
Looking forward to seeing you there.

MIke
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on June 10, 2016, 01:37:18 PM
You will just have to get some more engines finished Jo so you can fill a bit more space :LittleDevil:

Thought we were basically with the other stationary engines last year as they are all along the same row of tables?

Look on the bright side: less turning time  = more shopping time :pinkelephant:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on June 10, 2016, 02:27:42 PM
You will just have to get some more engines finished Jo so you can fill a bit more space :LittleDevil:

I could fill the three tables that are allocated to stationary engines single handily with what I have in the house. The problem is getting them there and back without damage :ShakeHead:

There is a difference with being on the Stationary tables and being restricted to displaying stationary engines or having your own tables to do what you want with. I was going to take along some tools but they had to go on the tools table  :disappointed:

The problem with not having a lathe to demonstrate with is people don't realise I make the models and they walk by thinking they are my "husbands" I am looking after :Mad:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Vixen on June 10, 2016, 03:36:41 PM
Jo,

You could always take one of your completed engines apart and reassemble it every day, to show you are really are a 'hands on' model engineer.

Mike.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on June 10, 2016, 03:53:23 PM
Well I asked for an air supply this year so at least there should be something going round even if it's not a lathe chuck.

I know you were in two minds whether to bring the lathe anyway so looks like GMES have just tipped the scales slightly in one direction. Don't think you had it last year did you?
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on June 11, 2016, 07:36:10 PM
A small taster of one of the chocolate bars to see if anyone is interested.

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on June 11, 2016, 07:58:24 PM
 :)

Are you just going to use loctite to put it together or will you go with JBWeld and have to do some cleanup?
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: 10KPete on June 11, 2016, 08:06:15 PM
I like your chocolate bars, Jo! That really looks good...

Pete
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on June 11, 2016, 08:43:35 PM
Are you just going to use loctite to put it together or will you go with JBWeld and have to do some cleanup?

There are two screws in the bottom of each block and one in the top, supplemented with Loctite to stop the screws coming out. But there is still lots of clean up to go  ::)

Thanks Pete, the next challenge is the paint  :( the colour I wanted is only available for using on the brown stuff  :toilet_claw:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on June 11, 2016, 08:52:48 PM
What colour are you after Jo some can be mixed to be used on Tobler
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on June 11, 2016, 09:10:54 PM
Duck Egg Blue   :Love: 

What other colour could they be   ::)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Bluechip on June 11, 2016, 09:46:26 PM
Duck Egg Blue   :Love: 

What other colour could they be   ::)

Jo

Which duck ? I have four left in the fridge and they're not the same colour  :headscratch:

Should I claim a refund?

Dave

Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on June 11, 2016, 10:10:27 PM
Which duck ? I have four left in the fridge and they're not the same colour  :headscratch:

Best send them to me and I will check them out for you  :naughty:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on June 12, 2016, 07:33:24 AM
Humbrol No 23 - Duck Egg Blue

Paragon have two shades
http://www.paragonpaints.co.uk/BS4800-16-C-33-Duckegg-Duck-egg-blue.html

Rustoleum and Kraylon also do a DEB if you want it in a can.

There is also a heat resistant one available in spray if you look

You could also probably find something similar in Halfords, BMW do a similar shade for the Mini which I have been thinking of using on a model.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on June 12, 2016, 08:17:33 AM
I found a small tin of the Rustoleum paint had been left on my door step the other day  ;)

I now have to work out how to get it out of the tin and on to the model. While I found a good range of air brushes left behind in the garage I have never used one  ::) and only have a cheap compressor without any traps which is suitable for testing engines  :-\.

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Bertie_Bassett on June 12, 2016, 08:36:21 AM
have you got the special tool for opening of paint tins??

if not im sure a lady of your engineering talents can make one. problem is, which design do you go for?



(http://img2.everychina.com/img/ac/d8/ee38ad5447b7a5b69da6285a431a-250x250c1-5d59/tin_openers_in_bulk_best_diy_painting_tools.jpg)

or you could go for this fancy one?

(http://www.hildering.com/cms/images/stories/innovations/Multi-Opener_en.jpg)



very nice work on the engines, must be good to be getting to the painting stage, finish line must be in sight?
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on June 12, 2016, 09:11:36 AM
I normally use the old screwdriver approach  ::)

very nice work on the engines, must be good to be getting to the painting stage, finish line must be in sight?

 :lolb: I am not finished or really at the painting stage, except that the engines are going to the show and I need to protect the stands from the  :censored: at the show who go round with cans of WD-40 trying to spray everything to "prevent rust"  :facepalm:.

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: 10KPete on June 12, 2016, 09:52:03 AM
If my stuff was at a show and some  :censored: came around trying to mess with my stuff I'd wack his knuckles with a stick!! Some folks need to learn that if it isn't theirs then don't touch it!! Grrrrrr.

Pete
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on June 12, 2016, 10:10:11 AM
You may have a problem with the Rustoleum as I think it comes in Fl.oz tins rather than ml :LittleDevil:

You will also need to sort out a suitable thinners if spraying. Also if its been stood on your suppliers doorstep for a long time it will take a lot of mixing if the pigment has settled too much as any lumps will give you problems when spraying.

As the rest of the engines won't be complete let alone painted why not just do the frames in grey primer for now rather than rush to get a good finish intime for the show.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on June 12, 2016, 12:17:06 PM
This one is 125ml and was dropped off by that nice man from Hermes  ;) I have no idea on what it is based on

Its the problem of bare grey primer ready to absorb everything and the  :censored: with the spray on fish oil  :Doh:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on June 12, 2016, 01:23:03 PM
Which one of their paints have you bought, they do several in DEB as this will affect type of thinners and primer that you can use. Also may not be worth trying to spray depending on type.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Mosey on June 12, 2016, 03:08:41 PM
A serious question: Why would one not skim the bottom flat before the hole drilling, etc.?
Mosey   :headscratch:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on June 12, 2016, 03:40:21 PM
Skim the bottom of what flat?

The underside of the base castings were skimmed prior to machining last fall, the bits for the stands are already flat  :noidea:.

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Alan Haisley on June 12, 2016, 05:33:53 PM
If my stuff was at a show and some  :censored: came around trying to mess with my stuff I'd wack his knuckles with a stick!! Some folks need to learn that if it isn't theirs then don't touch it!! Grrrrrr.

Pete
Wave a pocket torch (piezo-lighter) at them and say "Make my day, bub!"


Alan
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Bertie_Bassett on June 12, 2016, 06:18:32 PM
i cant see how you can get an acceptable finish just 'using an old screwdriver' you need the proper tool for the job! besides i thought you enjoyed making tooling??

as for the  :censored: with the wd40, throw a big gob of thick grease at them ' to prevent seizing'
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on June 12, 2016, 06:35:22 PM
For Jo the screwdriver has the advantage of being a three in one tool - opens the tin - stirs the paint - use handle to hammer lid back on ;)
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on June 12, 2016, 07:16:31 PM
For Jo the screwdriver has the advantage of being a three in one tool

Only three, have you no imagination  ;D

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on June 12, 2016, 07:20:21 PM
Thought it best not to mention screwing :ShakeHead:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on June 14, 2016, 01:30:38 PM
A couple of photos of "how to" that no one asked about before I do the final assembly stuff  :naughty:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on June 14, 2016, 01:38:38 PM
Jo, has that cutter in the first photo got some kind of ripper teeth with a staggered cut as it seems to be making very fine swarf, I would have expected chips the width of the cutter from a normal blade?

J

Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: wagnmkr on June 14, 2016, 01:43:21 PM
Thanks for those pics ... you have answered two of my unasked questions and solved a couple of my problems. I need to make fittings for an r/c sailboat and they require some angles in very small pieces. The old mini vice in a larger vice trick will work just fine.


Thanks

Tom
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on June 21, 2016, 05:01:50 PM
Fitting  ::) It is so exciting especially when you know you will have to pull it apart again in a couple of weeks.

Thankfully the big ends and the cylinders seem to line up but the piston rods were topping out until I remembered I had left them over length  :slap:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Chipswitheverything on June 21, 2016, 09:48:12 PM
Hi Jo, the above pictures of the engine with the con-rods fitted ( and the earlier photos of the three engines coming along on the bench ) make me very glad that I'll have a chance to look at the triples soon in the marquee at Guildford. Very excited by these triple triples! 
  I must resist the urge to go Triple playing with my casting set while the Major Beam is in bits and primer, the Steam Hammer is half way painted....   oh, and I am almost done with making up a dozen small sized Stuart type drain cocks . Didn't fancy sending off £150 of my pension to Stuart.....     Are you going to have to make up 18 of these drain cocks for the three triples, Jo?
Dave
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on June 22, 2016, 07:26:10 AM
Hi Dave,

As you noticed the triplets are coming together: Lucky is assembled as far as I have parts for, Numero Uno is up to the columns and I have just started on the bottom end of number 2. They all of a sudden are looking a bit bigger but nothing like the size of a Stuart Major  :Lol:

There is nothing wrong with casting fondling: It is good to get to know them and start planning out how you are going to machine them :embarassed:

Yes 18 drain cocks are on the list, along with 36 eccentric strap bolts and 129 cylinder studs  :paranoia: I might do a re-design on the drain cocks :thinking:

Jo

P.S.  Dave you are welcome to drop in by the house to see the Triples. I get the idea that you live somewhere down Southampton way not far from Mike Bondarczuk...so I am only about 20 mile away North-East of you and you (probably) will pass by my house on the way to the Guildford show ;)
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: zeeprogrammer on June 22, 2016, 11:18:51 AM
Following along Jo.

Whew, you still have a lot of parts to go.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Chipswitheverything on June 23, 2016, 11:59:45 AM
Hi Jo, thanks for your note and your kind P.S.  I'm Guildford travelling with friend and fellow MEM member JR72 in his luxury transport! : anyway,  we'll have a chat at the show.

Cheers, Dave
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on June 23, 2016, 01:13:08 PM
Ok Dave, look forward to seeing you there. If I am not on the stand I am sure most of the Guildford club members will be able to point you at the woman sneaking back to her car with all the castings and tools that she has just brought :mischief:

So the Orphans have gone together ready for the show  ;D There was a bit of a panic when I tried putting one of the big end shells on the wrong way round and it was tight/didn't line up with the piston rod. Having found the offending shell and corrected it it all lines up. Sorry no round and round testing with these  :disappointed: without the slide bar and all the gubbins needed to keep the piston rods square it is not a good idea to turn these over.

There are a couple more studs I could make  :Doh: but it looks like it is time to think about making something else before the show  :whoohoo:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Dave Otto on June 23, 2016, 01:18:32 PM
Jo you have done an amazing amount of work to that pile of pieces, parts, and castings you started out with a short while ago!

The trio is looking splendid!

Nice work,
Dave
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: steam guy willy on June 23, 2016, 02:42:17 PM
Looking good, and lots of hidden work that people will never see, however us on the forum can fully appreciate your endeavours !! Keep them coming please
Wilbert.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on June 23, 2016, 02:46:13 PM
Looking forward to seeing them in the flesh soon.

Do we have any advance reports from the Mud Crews yet?
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on June 23, 2016, 02:50:44 PM
Thanks Guys  :embarassed:

Do we have any advance reports from the Mud Crews yet?

Yes the concreting for the engine shed that was due this afternoon had to be cancelled due to it being under 4" of water.  :facepalm:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on June 23, 2016, 02:55:56 PM
That could cause it to fail a slump test! but it sets much better underwater :)

Might have to come in the Mitsubishi as the Subaru has just been valleted as part of its service, seems a shame to make it dirty.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Chipswitheverything on June 23, 2016, 04:43:36 PM
Jo, re. your thought of redesigning the drain cocks, ( though you will have plenty to do before they crop up! .... )    I'd say a  re design could certainly be worthwhile, especially if the condensate is to be piped off from the drains, which it should really be, of course.
  I went along with the Stuart pattern , mostly out of a combination of laziness, and a certain amount of nostalgia for those illustrations in the old b+w catalogues that I bought yonks ago, where all the engines have the familiar d' cocks fitted to them.      But... people will look at mine and think, Oh, he just bought the drain cocks, then...  !!  Dave
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on June 23, 2016, 06:02:58 PM
Only 18, you may as well make some for all those other Stuart casting sets you have at the same time while you are set up for it :LittleDevil:

I suppose you could also link them together in sets of three rather than have individual handles on them all.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: crueby on June 23, 2016, 06:46:54 PM
Fit the drain cocks to a set of bowls and you got a water clock!
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: NickG on June 23, 2016, 09:36:13 PM
Well done Jo, huge amount of work on the table there, they look great.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on June 24, 2016, 04:59:07 PM
Thanks Nick  :)

So something else to make while not causing myself more problems  :thinking: If I want the engines to go round and round I need to get the slide bars in place and that means I need to sort out the casting that goes on the lower end. As usual there are three of these and one has its unique features which included one of the holes for the columns out of line, the distance from the centre of the column to the bit the slide bar goes on is  :o too short and I will fill in the screw holes as I go.

To bung up the out of line hole some casting sprews were dug out and a suitably short one soft soldered to a bit of brass so I could turn it to diameter  :naughty: Bronze 7BA threaded rod was made out of some off cuts of bronze railway track and a few other flat offcuts used to pack out the mounting surface.

The two sides were squared up sufficient that all the lugs and the flat bits could be used to hold the casting then using a 150mm wide vice they were machined to the 5.5mm thickness.

Now for the interesting bit  ::)

Jo


Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: crueby on June 24, 2016, 05:34:59 PM
Taking that casting down between the sections looks like it will be a delicate operation. Please make note of any new phrases you come up with... always looking to expand the vocabulary...!  :o

What is that piece for, anyway? Does it hold up part of the reverser or something?  :headscratch:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on June 24, 2016, 08:44:41 PM
Taking that casting down between the sections looks like it will be a delicate operation.

As they say life would be so boring without a new challenge everyday ::) I am not sure I am allowed to tell you the special engineering terms I will use to make this go right, some of my previous ones were not appreciated  :ShakeHead:

This is what is for  ;)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: zeeprogrammer on June 24, 2016, 10:28:05 PM
Awesome picture! So exciting.

Must be my expectations.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: crueby on June 24, 2016, 10:42:24 PM
That supports a bunch!

And we are always looking to learn more Special Engineering terms! That chapter always seems to be missing from the workshop books.   :cussing:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: 10KPete on June 24, 2016, 11:51:06 PM
There are two 'pumps' on the side of that triple. One is a vacuum pump for the condenser and the other is.....??
I guess the big one is the vacuum pump?

Thanks,
Pete
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Flyboy Jim on June 25, 2016, 03:39:02 AM
I am not sure I am allowed to tell you the special engineering terms I will use to make this go right, some of my previous ones were not appreciated  :ShakeHead:

Jo

Uh Jo.............why do I think that maybe the "engineering terms"  you're referring to are the same as the "carpenter terms" that a carpenter uses when they hit their thumb with a hammer?   :naughty:

Jim
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on June 25, 2016, 08:43:15 AM
There are two 'pumps' on the side of that triple. One is a vacuum pump for the condenser and the other is.....??
I guess the big one is the vacuum pump?

The other one is the water pump  ;)

Not quiet Jim, mine normally are the engineering humour variety that helps you get through those long boring jobs in the shop  :-X

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on June 28, 2016, 01:16:06 PM
The guide bar needs to be mounted up on a jig. This a simple second hand piece of ali which has been squared up and had additional threads tapped to allow for clamping to screw directly into it. This was then squared up and zeroed in on Tgs table using the Abs setting.

A bit of using the wobbler and the pointer and a good casting position was chosen and the DRO swapped over to relative measurements with the first hole being used as the datum. all were drilled then bored using a slot drill (I considered a reamer but based on what these are for I believe that a tight hole is not required and slightly oversized hole may not be a bad thing  ;).

Having made the holes in the first casting it was removed and the holes drilled and tapped ready for the mounting buttons which are to be used in shaping the bracket up. One more to go, then we can use these mounting holes to clamp down lucky 3's casting to drill that missing hole  :)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on June 28, 2016, 07:20:29 PM
The buttons were used to check the location for the second casting before that was drilled and bored. Then the missing hole was located in the third casting after the buttons were clamped in the three existing holes.

The next step was to mill the flat which the bars will clamp to to distance before using a 12.7mm cutter to mill the inside curves.

Sadly the castings are all under dimension in the same one place  :(

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on June 29, 2016, 01:14:59 PM
Milling down the other side of the guide bar was equally exciting as the first. I noticed that the cutter was going blunt as it was rolling up a bur on top of the work. So I am now on the second cutter on this job  :disappointed:.

Now I have to decide do I leave these at 4mm wide or go all the way to 3.2mm wide  :thinking:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on June 29, 2016, 08:10:46 PM
In the end I decided to reduce the thickness to 3.2mm along the bar. To start off the wobbly bits I drilled the bottom of the dips then filed the curves so they looked about right.  :noidea: I am not sure why most models I have seen have left these out the dips as they are easy to do.

A bit more polishing and I will have to unpack the triplets from the show boxes and add these to them  ::) .

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: zeeprogrammer on June 30, 2016, 01:16:04 AM
I'm looking forward to seeing these on the model.
I have to admit...I have no idea what I'm looking at.  :-\
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Dave Otto on June 30, 2016, 01:22:38 AM
Nice work Jo, the guides look great!

Dave

Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on June 30, 2016, 07:28:02 AM
Thanks Dave  :)

I think I must have made making that look too easy, other people had told me it was a real piggy to do, or was it they said it's easy to make a pig's ear out of it   :Lol: I notice the original Stuart display engine one didn't follow their own drawings :disappointed:

I have to admit...I have no idea what I'm looking at.  :-\

Hey Zee :headscratch: The guide bar holds the bottom of the slide bars in place to stop them moving around as the piston goes up and down. Its no good showing you them on my engines as they will be dangling mid air for now.

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on June 30, 2016, 07:46:17 AM
Jo are you refering to the engine that Stuarts currently display on their stand? if so that's not an original Stuart engine. When Bridport took over the company they did not get any completed engines, they have had to buy all the ones on their stand so not the original ones.

The one in my old paper catalogue has the correct shape :)

The drawing does make them look a bit flimsy but with the larger internal radius that you have left the come up a bit beefier.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on June 30, 2016, 07:50:15 AM
The drawing does make them look a bit flimsy but with the larger internal radius that you have left the come up a bit beefier.

 :headscratch: Which radius are you on about. All of the curves follow the same radi/diameters as measured directly off the drawing.

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on June 30, 2016, 08:19:17 AM
You look to have more metal where the screw goes into the edge so I assumed you had used a larger internal radius which makes for a more sturdy part and a better screw fixing as there are more turns of thread.

Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Ian S C on June 30, 2016, 02:25:12 PM
Would it not be better that the foundry build or have built their demo engines from current castings, just to see if they left enough machining allowance, just to reduce the number of castings sent back because of lack of metal in the right places.
Ian S C
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on June 30, 2016, 02:40:19 PM
It would be nice  :ThumbsUp: From what I hear they have one foundry man who is full time making Stuart castings using the existing patterns but they are not a machine shop so would have to pay someone to make the models any way.

And I understand that they are looking to bring a few of the missing models back into production  :whoohoo:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on June 30, 2016, 02:54:26 PM
They obviously have someone to do the ready machined/completed kits so could no doubt get it done my them but Its quite an outley to have one of each made particularly the less popular ones which could take quite a few years to recover any outlay. At best they can see what gets returned regularly as undersize and modify those patterns as needed.

They have been saying they will bring back old engines since they took over but not that many have reappeared yet, the Williamson,  the small progress and 6A are ones I can think of. That's why I decided to do the lightweight without any castings. Again I suppose it comes down to demand vs outlay. If they need to remake patterns and get new drawings done for an engine that may only sell a few each year then it may just not be finantially viable.

Maybe a half way measure would be to offer a bare bones set of castings say just cylinder, valve chest, frame & flywheel as most of the other bits are easily made from solid or fabricated. Do you really need cast piston and cylinder cover balnks for example? That way they could get a few more engines out there and available for the more experianced builder.

J
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on June 30, 2016, 03:04:04 PM
True forgot you can buy them ready to run, in which case their builder should be able to tell them what is wrong with their patterns.

Remember it is one guy bringing these engines back to availability: If he is casting existing engines he is not making the missing patterns for the lost ones. And scaling up the prices of some of the missing ones from the old price list they may be a bit expensive if they did. For instance the 800 gas engine is here priced at £269, when the triples were £242. So in todays money that would be  :toilet_claw:

Jo

P.S. If anyone has an 800 Gas Engine casting set I am happy to round up the money to pay £270 for it  :mischief:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on June 30, 2016, 03:07:57 PM
I'll match your £270 and raise you a pack of Jaffas :)

PS I missed of the No 3 which is available again, that would be more fun than a No1 Jo. Though if I wanted to do a big compound the ME 1923 and 1924 ones would be more appealing.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on June 30, 2016, 03:21:56 PM
I might be able to arrange for them to come to the show for a fondle for a packet of Jaffas  :naughty:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: AOG on June 30, 2016, 05:05:15 PM
Ok I have to ask. what's a Jaffa?

Tony
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on June 30, 2016, 05:08:09 PM
All three guide bars are now in place. I would like to say they slid nicely into place but it was found that two of the columns had over sized bosses  :facepalm: Words were had with Mr Silky  :slap: and he removed the offending 0.05mm  for me.

All three engines are back in the show boxes and ready to go  :drinking-41:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Bluechip on June 30, 2016, 05:10:46 PM
Tony

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaffa_Cakes

I'm looking forward to seeing these assembled as far as they are. ( Engines, not cakes/biscuits )
Last time I saw them they were a collection of knobbly bits ..  :headscratch:

Dave

Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on June 30, 2016, 06:14:04 PM
 ::) A Jaffa cake is an important delicacy used during price negotiation to raise or lower the price as necessary  :naughty: They also have a very short life expectancy once the packet is opened  :facepalm:

Before the traditional Thursday night activity I decided to see if I had some bronze to make those odd shaped little brackets that go on the top of the columns. Sadly my odds and ends turned up nothing so I was forced to go to my very expensive bronze collection  :hellno: This was a bronze nut, which has been cut into quarters to extract the sides. Using postits cut out to the outline of the castings to find suitable positions to minimise the impact of the remaining threads four bits have been cut out.

The remainder of the bronze can now go back in the stores with its friends :)

Jo

Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: gunna on July 01, 2016, 08:08:10 AM
Jaffas.
Here in Oz, they are an entirely different item.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaffas
In the olden days of wooden picture theatre floors, they were generally rolled down the aisle from the back stalls, making a disturbing bonk, bonk, bonk, as they came down the steps. But also delicious.

Ian.

PS. Also have a short life expectancy once the packet is opened.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Ian S C on July 01, 2016, 12:30:35 PM
Here there are two meanings, first as in Australia red coated balls of chocolate, about 5/8" diameter, yum. The other Jafa, well the other Kiwis will know, and if they come from Auckland please don't take offence.
You start to run into problems with castings when you use a casting for a pattern, I even noticed that when I made some patterns for horse brasses, and had them cast at a foundry in Christchurch(NZ), there were 6 different patterns, 100 of each required, so after each pour they used some of the previous batchas patterns, and at the end some were getting a bit thin, all serviceable.
Ian S C
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on July 01, 2016, 01:18:31 PM
I have been advised to throw these castings away and use a bit of brass  :hellno:

The new bits have had their Verticals and Humphreys milled square, the castings their Humphreys. All are still over sized  :ThumbsUp:

So the first stage is to clamp each in the vice and take to thickness. Yes this marks the casting  :facepalm: But as I said everything is still over sized.

Next is the tricky bit for each casting I have to decide on the best position for the two holes. There are lots of options if you look at the measurements in the photo the actual castings have a fair bit of meat on them. This bit could take a while  ::)


Edit 3 hours later 12 holes have been drilled and reamed  :)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 01, 2016, 06:01:23 PM
Why were you advised to toss them?

Yep. I'm following along.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on July 01, 2016, 06:09:45 PM
Because it is easier to hold/make them out of bar stock   ::)

But who wants to live without the opportunity to stand up to a new challenge every day? Life would be so boring :lolb:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: crueby on July 01, 2016, 06:42:36 PM
Because it is easier to hold/make them out of bar stock   ::)

But who wants to live without the opportunity to stand up to a new challenge every day? Life would be so boring :lolb:

Jo
There are no problems, only opportunities. Trick is not to get an insurmountable opportunity!!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on July 05, 2016, 11:05:02 AM
Using a piece of 4.76mm bar through the hole I milled the tops of the brackets flat.

Then using one of my quality (note the lack of spirals of aluminium swarf which is caused by cheap soft sticky material ) pieces of scrap aluminium for a jig. The mounting hole was drilled the correct distance from the end of the jig. The jig turned over 90degrees and each of the brackets mounted.

Each bracket is now drilled and the top of the hole skimmed truly square to the hoe. Then off to Mr Silky  :Love: to turn the lower of the bracket round, before finishing off with buttons and files.

Two down  :).... ten to go  :(.

Jo

Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on July 05, 2016, 11:33:40 AM
(note the lack of spirals of aluminium swarf which is caused by cheap soft sticky material )

Or could it be confirmation of what was said at the weekend that you have high spec alloys that are far harder than needed, not that it really matters for jig making.

I would not class 6082 as cheap soft and sticky but find that a sharp drill will produce spirals of swarf?

(http://www.model-engineer.co.uk/sites/7/images/member_albums/44290/351758.jpg)
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on July 05, 2016, 01:12:24 PM
:headscratch: You mean HE30: Yes relatively it is cheap, soft and sticky which is why you need a sharp drill to prevent it snagging and produces long spirals of sharp swarf  ::)

The quality stuff is less likely to stick and cause breakage of your taps when you need to tap a thread.

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on July 05, 2016, 01:32:04 PM
Jo I would have thought you left the old HE30 behind long ago when you gave up using imperial measurements and would now use the current coding.

Maybe the "quality" stuff is also blunting or breaking your tools judging by the number of taps you were buying at the weekend, most of my commonly used BA taps & dies I've had for 30years and made more things than you.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on July 05, 2016, 03:07:57 PM
Jo I would have thought you left the old HE30 behind long ago when you gave up using imperial measurements and would now use the current coding.

Maybe the "quality" stuff is also blunting or breaking your tools judging by the number of taps you were buying at the weekend, most of my commonly used BA taps & dies I've had for 30years and made more things than you.

No only just learnt to use HE-30 and HE-15 as terms but I am sure some of the nicer stuff I have is neither of those value grades  ;)

 :lolb: They were 12 and 14BA taps for my stocks. My 12BA tap is still going strong after cutting over 150 holes into steel. That doesn't mean I don't pick up High quality spare stock when they are dirt cheap and I have money burning a hole in my pocket but I still want a good quality 14BA die  :ThumbsUp:

:thinking: Can't remember breaking the last tap :headscratch: Definitely haven't broken one since making the Pillar tool  :headscratch:. No can't remember when I last broke one  :noidea:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on July 05, 2016, 05:43:14 PM
12 brackets made and even better they fit on the engines and a shaft can be passed through them  :pinkelephant:.

And I can report no tools were harmed in making these parts  ::)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Bluechip on July 05, 2016, 10:54:11 PM
Wow, motoring along now ...  :praise2:

Question -

How are you driving the part here?

Seems to be on some sort of mandrel but why doesn't it just spin around when you machine it?
Temporary Loctite or similar?

Dave



Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on July 06, 2016, 08:13:32 AM
Hi Dave, thanks for still following along with the build  :)

I have loctited that part on to a piece of 4mm bar stock that is then mounted into the collet chuck. The same bit can be seen being used to hold it later for filing  ;).


At the show we had a review of the possibility of running these engines. The consensus is that it will run very poorly if at all on compressed air and will need about 120 PSI to compound on steam. As a result I am considering making two HP valves one correct one for steam running and a second which bypasses the HP cylinder and passes the compressed air directly to the IP cylinder where hopefully it will have enough oomph to run these engines  ::).

Then the question is will it in the reduced configuration run from my 504 boiler with an output of steam at 60 PSI  :thinking:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on July 06, 2016, 08:41:33 AM
So you would have the HP and IP working as a double high and the LP using the lower pressure from the IP exhaust, assuming the HP cylinder will have to exhaust to atmosphere. So maybe 200% more steam volume but as they are unlikely to be doing any actual work and you won't be running them at full revs for most of the time you should be able to get enough steam for demo purposes.

Or a compromise between the two with a simpling valve to get the LP going on full pressure and then revert to IP feeding LP.

The other option would be to run them as triple high, you won't need to think about compounding and the boiler should just about be able to produce the volume needed as it can be as low as 5 psi which is all you need to have them ticking over.

I think the first thing to do will be to get them running freely on a small amount of air pressure as triples and then see how they run in that configuration on steam. Then if needed start playing about with the different configurations.

Adding a condenser will also help you get the most out of what steam you have available

My old printed Stuart catalogue does not show any of their boilers as being suitable for the triple, either for working or just demo purposes. :(

As I was saying to Fred at the weekend who has got a largish compound his easiest option for steaming it is to take a feed off that portable boiler that he has in the form of a traction engine so maybe you should crack on with the BB1 or turn one of those loco boilers you have into a stationary boiler. :)

J

PS my beam will run off a Mamod boiler with a bit of additional heat to the meths burner

Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on July 06, 2016, 08:46:37 AM
Actually it may be possible to feed exhaust from HP and IP into LP which would be better than exhausting HP to air. It will need more than a valve as the pipework layouts linking the cylinders will need altering for each option.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on July 06, 2016, 09:05:55 AM
No that was not what we discussed: By replacing the HP valve with a U shaped open bucket bypass valve (all ports open at all times to each other and the chest), the HP cylinder is acting as a air/steam reservoir only.

Air/Steam feed then goes directly into the IP cylinder at full pressure does its work and then goes into the LP Cylinder. There is no need to modify anything of the engine, just replace the standard bucket valve with the alternative bypass open bucket valve when you want to run on lower pressures or air ;)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on July 06, 2016, 09:34:34 AM
In that case why not leave the valve and piston off, steam will enter the chest and cylinder and exit via the exhaust port giving high pressure steam to the IP. No need to make a bypass valve and reduced friction from HP cylinder. Better still would be a fixed plate blanking off the cylinder inlets so steam goes straight to IP from HP chest and you get no loss due to condensating in the HP cylinder.

If it does work then you could make up your bypass valve but at least the above is an easy way to try the theory

If you want the ability to change from compounding to low steam/air they rather than have to change slide valves which is fiddly and needs to have the valve set up would it be easier to just take off the link pipe between HP and IP cylinders (4 nuts) and feed the steam/air straight into IP chest (2 nuts to go back on)

Alternative is a 3 way valve the either sends stean to HP or shuts off HP and feeds to IP then you can change at teh flick of a lever.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on July 06, 2016, 09:45:49 AM

At the show we had a review of the possibility of running these engines. The consensus is that it will run very poorly if at all on compressed air and will need about 120 PSI to compound on steam.

Jo don't know who said this but have you bothered to look at you-tube, plenty of Stuart  triples there running on compressed air, this one goes well

[youtube1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnuPIMpc7UQ[/youtube1]

As does this rather nice Bolton

[youtube1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CafCiQURFWg[/youtube1]

Like I said build as per original and see how it runs on the compressor before you worry about altering things
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on July 06, 2016, 09:59:44 AM
This guy had the same thought as me take off a link pipe and in his case just run it on the LP. Air is going into the LP chest inlet and then out the exhaust to air.

[youtube1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yqn1wlsQeTQ[/youtube1]
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on July 06, 2016, 10:03:46 AM
There is something very odd about the plumbing on that first link you showed: The steam seems to be connect to both the LP and the HP  :noidea:

Edit: Just checked out the Video on UTube: The guy has plumbed it in to make all three cylinders run in parallel. "The cylinders are fed parallel with compressed air. It is correct that, if you feed the engine via the original way with air it will no run smooth. So the the air goes directly  to the HP valve, in the outlet pipe I drilled a small hole for outlet air, the flange to the MP cyl. is blind. The air to the MP cyl. goes via the pipe clamp which is a hollow support (haha).The outlet hole same as HP.The compensator between MP&LP is blind.LP is fed via thin bypass (start help). "

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on July 06, 2016, 10:18:32 AM
Here is one with simpling valves to IP and LP which would allow you to change from air to Compounding steam at flick of lever/turn of valve as Suggested above.

[youtube1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgawlRFHFfc[/youtube1]

And one that looks to have standard plumbing

[youtube1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7V2OGQS4d4[/youtube1]
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Chipswitheverything on July 06, 2016, 02:22:49 PM
If I can just go back a day in this fast moving topic!, those difficult to make gunmetal brackets look superb, Jo, - and it's no thanks to ST and their uninspiring sprue of castings, either! Just had a look at the ones that are supplied with my triple set...
  For the money that is now wanted for a new set of the castings, it wouldn't do any harm to treat the customer to some lost wax goodies to assist with some of these small and tricky bits: perhaps they need to be having a chat to Adam Cro......

Dave
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on July 06, 2016, 05:31:02 PM
Thanks Dave, There's no time to sit around  :wine1: the target is to finish all three engines within 12 months  ;).

Yes they are top quality Stuart castings as designed in the 1930's, none of this nasty modern lost wax/plastic casting stuff that Adam Cro was showing off at the show for a fraction of the price.


I wonder what is needed for the reversing mechanism  :thinking:

Jo.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on July 06, 2016, 07:35:06 PM
The reversing mechanism is going to use up a lot more of my spare materials :Doh:. Thankfully a very nice man called Dave dropped off some spare metal a few months back and that has provided also most all of what I need  8)


 :thinking: I have another jig to think about: Those expansion links :thinking: the drawings say mild steel, Locos would normally make these out of gauge plate and harden them  :thinking: I could make the nut out of bronze  :thinking: In the mean time there are some nice easy bits to make, just lots of them  ::)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on July 06, 2016, 08:19:52 PM
Traction engine boys make them from mild steel and case harden though  I did the A7 from Gauge plate
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: nonort! on July 14, 2016, 08:30:57 PM
Hi Jo I am a newbie on this forum so take it easy on me for a while. I built my Triple on a Myford ML 10 back in the eighties. I turned the crankshaft by holding the three jaw in a four jaw and going very very gently. Being a machinist by trade I made all of the components from the solid? The only major problem I recall was the studs supplied by Stuarts were hopelessly under size. I joined my cylinder halves together using stainless cap screws which are hidden under the cladding anyway. My engine has run for approximately one hundred hours using mild steel expansion links and cast iron die blocks. I use chainsaw chain oil on the motion and have had no problems so far. My engine did not run very well on my first try. Later I found it worked really well on steam due to its expansive properties. I must set too and make a proper bed plate for it as it is presently bolted to a piece of wood from an old drawer front. All for now keep up the great work.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on July 14, 2016, 08:53:00 PM
Thanks Nonort,

I was thinking of leaving it with mild steel links and Bronze dies  :naughty:

Jo

P.S. I am guessing you live about 20 miles south of me  ;)
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on July 17, 2016, 09:48:34 AM
If you have to make one then I have to make three times as many  :facepalm: and these are still going  :-\

Lots of jig work to hold them. Making sure I cut the correct piece off, in the right order, so I don't paint myself into a corner. Marker penning the item to allow me to see what I shouldn't be cutting off and making sure the jig holes don't get filled up with swarf before mounting the next bit to do it all over again  ::)

Did I mention just over half way on the arms/links :paranoia:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on July 17, 2016, 01:13:21 PM
Good to see you are still plugging away on the triples ;)
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Kim on July 17, 2016, 03:36:48 PM
Hi Jo,
I know I don't comment a lot on your thread, but I have to say I'm quite impressed with your dedication to these three orphans.  This is a LOT of work, and doing it all 3 times is just amazing.  Not only do you do excellent machine work, you are incredibly tenacious!
Kim
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Alan Haisley on July 17, 2016, 04:14:02 PM
Maybe Scotch tape the unused jig holes? Or a bizillion flat blade grub screws to fill them?  :shrug:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on July 17, 2016, 04:24:07 PM
Thanks Guys  :D

Kim I may not be making my next series of three engine I have immediately after this one. For some reason the idea of making just one of an engine seems so much less boring.

Looking at the remaining castings/material pile I think I am on the down hill straight  :whoohoo:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Alan Haisley on July 17, 2016, 04:30:54 PM
Why, you should finish up in no time at all  :lolb: :lolb: :lolb:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 18, 2016, 01:00:28 AM
I am so gobsmacked by the work (and play) going into this...it's hard to comment.

Looking at the remaining castings/material pile I think I am on the down hill straight

My own experience (as light and poor as it is)...would say you've jinxed yourself. In my life, there's a bump up ahead.
I expect a slight one...but one none-the-less.   ;D
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on July 18, 2016, 10:38:47 AM
Thanks Zee, I'm looking forward to finishing these but still not sure if it will be this year ::)

My own experience (as light and poor as it is)...would say you've jinxed yourself.

(http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Thinking/thinking-017.GIF)

Positive thinking its all going to work out fine  :paranoia:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: steam guy willy on July 18, 2016, 02:03:09 PM
Thanks Zee, I'm looking forward to finishing these but still not sure if it will be this year ::)

My own experience (as light and poor as it is)...would say you've jinxed yourself.

(http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Thinking/thinking-017.GIF)

Positive thinking its all going to work out fine  :paranoia:

JoSuch a lot of good work going on there and this is why they invented CNC...a good exhibition also in Guildford Lots of fine fotos etc ....Will some helpful chap be making 3 boats to put them in , it will make a fine flotilla on the nearest river....!!

Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on July 18, 2016, 03:05:16 PM
Jo

Such a lot of good work going on there and this is why they invented CNC...a good exhibition also in Guildford Lots of fine fotos etc ....Will some helpful chap be making 3 boats to put them in , it will make a fine flotilla on the nearest river....!!


Thanks Willy,

I am open to offers from any helpful chaps :embarassed:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 19, 2016, 01:46:20 AM
I am open to offers from any helpful chaps :embarassed:

Oh if I could only provide the help you would be asking for.  :naughty:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on July 19, 2016, 05:31:11 PM
Thanks Zee,

But I think you are a little bit too far away and T would want you back  :shrug: and I think that is main concern of potential other helpful chaps they are all playing better safe than risk it  :lolb:

A few more links done and even more to go  :facepalm:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on July 19, 2016, 06:45:40 PM
Something to keep me interested in all this heat  :thinking:

For some reason the drawings shows 5 steam pipe glands: three for 8mm pipe and two for 6.35mm pipe but they give you two slightly larger glands and two smaller  :headscratch: and to make things more interesting I am short of one.

So we will assume the 8mm holes is for the exhaust and the intermediate pipe so each engine needs 3 of those glands. The HP to IP pipe is the smaller 6.35mm pipe and there is a threaded steam inlet :noidea: not sure I have some more flanges which would I think look nicer.

Did I mention there are dimensions missing on the drawing >:(

Jo

Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on July 20, 2016, 01:17:09 PM
 >:( These are too thin to hold in a four jaw, so I have had to resort to my well known technique of superglue.

Thankfully the 1.6mm boss will be more than enough to hold in the 5C collet for the next stage  ;)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Bluechip on July 20, 2016, 04:10:30 PM
Cracking on there, Chief.  ...  :ThumbsUp:

Am I to understand you're doing this in all this heat stuff? 

Just spent the last 3 days putting a new roof on my workshop. Frying in my own body fat ...  :insane:
Anyway, not complete but it's water tight so it can go hang for a bit until it cools down.
38oC  earlier today inside the shop.  Yesterday afternoon the WBF ply was 54oC at 3:30 according to my thermometer gun thing. Only put my paw on it once, then left it until 7PM.

Dave
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on July 20, 2016, 08:00:49 PM
Thanks Dave, it is not too hot when I start in the workshop but running a 750 W motor soon brings the temperature up, so play time is limited  :(

The larger glands were also superglued onto the mount and turned before each being held in a collet to have the back taken to thickness and the hole for the copper tube drilled. At this point I realised I am short of a piece of 8mm copper pipe  :wallbang:

Tgs is feeling disappointed this evening: He's got out his collet dividing head and mounted it ready on his bed for me to do the next bit but it is too hot  :disappointed:. So he is going to have to wait in anticipation but tomorrow is Thursday  :-\

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on July 24, 2016, 01:34:57 PM
Tgs was finally allowed to play with his dividing head and he generously drilled all the glands for me  :). Leaving me to finish them off with a bit of hand filing. Two are rejects as the original casting's boss position did not allow enough metal on the end of the flange  :disappointed:

Having had visitors today I was forced to reassess leaving the remaining triple bits on the dining table and decided they could go and join the engines in the workshop. Which of course now my visitors have left means I have space for the next casting set on the dining room table. But one must not rush  :hellno: it is not a competition to see who can finish the most engines in a year :ShakeHead: So looks like I should be able to finish these three in time for the anniversary of starting them.

Which means I am allowed to think about the next engine to build  ;D.

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on July 24, 2016, 01:58:11 PM
Must be time to think about another noisy one or you may need to build a pipe bender first:D

Nothing wrong with a race particularly if you cross the finish line rather than keep having to pit without completing the last couple of laps :LittleDevil:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on July 24, 2016, 03:28:50 PM
More of Lucky's features  :facepalm: I considered using the original IP cylinder valve rod guide but those studs look rather close to the outside of the bronze  :o So I have to decide if there is a replacement hiding in this spare bit of bronze.

And there is also the valve rod guides  ::) I don't know why they have been bored 4.76mm when the spindles are 4mm  :headscratch: I suspect someone tried to space the holes so they matched the studs for the guide not thinking that it may be desirable to adjust the packing  :-\ And they haven't machined the outside of the gland so the chances of getting the outside concentric to the hole is not good  :ShakeHead:

I won't bore you with how to machine these they are the same as the last lot but this time there is only 18 of them. And I have a hole in the piece of scrap that I am using as my superglue chuck to let the drills/reamer through  ;)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on July 29, 2016, 03:45:06 PM
So 18 stuffing glands turned, reamed, drilled and filed to shape  :)

Lucky's HP valve chest has got the suds at the correct spacing but the LP one  :disappointed: not only are they at the wrong spacing but they also don't line up with the valve rod hole.

I've decided to alter the deign of the IP stuffing gland and reduce the distance between the mounting studs. Which means Lucky's IP valve rod gland will need replacing as well  :facepalm2:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on July 29, 2016, 04:13:16 PM
Looking good Jo.

I bet you are glad that they don't have tail rods on the piston and valve rods.

What bits are next? I think it's paint for me this weekend.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on July 29, 2016, 05:37:12 PM
Thanks J :) there are tail rods on the valve rods  ::)

I have been having a little fondle of the piston castings  :embarassed: Lucky's originals fit the bore but are too tall. I will also need to think about making lots of very thin piston rings  :paranoia:

In the meantime there are some other castings on the dining room table awaiting my pleasure  :naughty:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on July 29, 2016, 06:06:51 PM
Thanks J :) there are tail rods on the valve rods  ::)

I was thinking of the type that go right through which would have meant 36 glands not 18.

Come on then spill the beans whats next for the chop
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on July 29, 2016, 06:55:22 PM
Come on then spill the beans whats next for the chop

:-X

I blame Per  ;).

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Admiral_dk on July 29, 2016, 09:04:06 PM
Guilty as charged m'Lady  :-[
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Dave Otto on July 30, 2016, 01:26:07 AM
Jo the hours that you have been pouring into this project are really starting to show; the cylinder assemblies look great!

Why can't you plug and move Lucky's stud holes to the correct position?

Dave
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on July 30, 2016, 07:51:49 AM
Thanks Dave,

I could plug them but there is a danger that by the time I have modified it to be able to fit the nuts for the lower studs that the repair would show. So that could be a hole below the repair stud where it didn't go deep enough  :facepalm2: or the silver solder line will show in in years to come the tarnished silver  would be a dirty black mark  :disappointed:

I have a week's holiday at the end of the month and I will be staying in my favourite place in the whole world  :whoohoo: the plan is to get the cylinder set finished and try not to go fondling those castings on the table or that piece of EN8 that keeps telling me "crankshaft, crankshaft, you know you want to"  :naughty:


Pistons: I have 11 of these. While Lucky's are the correct diameter none of them are the correct height. The LP Piston that came from Graham is already machined to drawing but to a larger diameter than any of my LP cylinders, which is all good news  ;D

Standard rules apply: try to machine the worst of the castings for use and if they fail, those were just for practise and you still have the good ones to go  ;)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Bertie_Bassett on July 30, 2016, 09:17:32 AM
looks like your getting there now, im sure youll be done soon, especially after a holiday at the workshop
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on July 30, 2016, 10:19:01 AM
Can't you plug the cast iron to get the studs in the right place and then machine a gland to suit the correct studs, no soldering needed.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on July 30, 2016, 01:26:26 PM
Can't you plug the cast iron to get the studs in the right place and then machine a gland to suit the correct studs, no soldering needed.

The IP valve guide is made of gunmetal  :headscratch:

The studs for the gland are currently spaced at 12.7mm rather than the 11.1 on the drawing or the 10.5mm I have spaced them at on the gland, which provides more clearance for the lower mounting nuts  ::).

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on July 31, 2016, 07:57:56 AM
 :thinking: Why is it when everything seems simple they dimension things differently: In turning a piston it is logical to first turn the face that faces the piston rod and while you are at it to drill and like this engine tap it. But in these drawings they have not given the depth at the bottom  :headscratch:

So having machined one side of the pistons (while also doing gardening/winter wood preparation etc so I was not concentrating on what I was doing  :ShakeHead: ) I found myself at silly o'clock this morning worrying that I had done the wrong side of the piston first  :facepalm:.

Revisiting the Stuart cross section showed that no I had been right and the side I have turned is the piston side but that still does not get around why they have dimensioned the wrong end of the piston  :noidea:

I did make one mistake I turned the inside of the third LP piston to 35mm rather than 36mm which means it does not fit round the cover so that will need correcting shortly  :disappointed:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Bluechip on July 31, 2016, 08:10:26 AM
Err ..  :headscratch:  for some reason I'm not allowed access to the second 2 piccys ..

Edit For some reason the black crosses have gone and so has the message .. 

On pic 1: Are there grooves for 3 piston rings or just a labyrinth seal arrangement?

Looking good anyway ..  :ThumbsUp:



Dave
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on July 31, 2016, 08:18:57 AM
Thanks Dave,

On pic 1: Are there grooves for 3 piston rings or just a labyrinth seal arrangement?

 :( Those are for piston rings. Don't ask how many I need to make  :Doh:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on July 31, 2016, 08:29:15 AM
Actually there are a lot of people who advocate machining the piston the other way around, some of the Stuart books even suggest that method

Reason being that the top is machined for the nut to bear against or recessed for a nut if needed , then piston reversed in the chuck and the rod side machined, drilled, tapped and counterbored if needed.

You then hold the previously made piston rod in the tailstock (preferably in a collet) and bring it upto the piston which ensures it is as true as possible when screwed in. Remove from chuck and add the locknut to the previously machined top.

Finally hold by piston rod to skim OD of piston
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Bluechip on July 31, 2016, 08:40:08 AM
:( Those are for piston rings. Don't ask how many I need to make  :Doh:

Jo

OK. I won't ..  :)

Why don't you use onion rings instead ... pre-machined and no shortage of 'em by the looks of it ..  ;D

( Bit early for oiking 'em out ?  Not grown any this year but usually leave mine in until early Sept. )

Dave .. Back to the w/shop roof saga ...  :(

Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on July 31, 2016, 09:15:11 AM
( Bit early for oiking 'em out ?  Not grown any this year but usually leave mine in until early Sept. )

They decide when it is time for them to come out: Beginning of July they start withdrawing their roots and fall over next thing you know the gnomes are out there playing football with them and you find them all over the veg bed :ShakeHead: I let them play for a couple of weeks before I get tired of chasing them so bring the rest in for drying. I still have loads left from last year :)

Good luck with the roof  :ThumbsUp:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on July 31, 2016, 09:24:55 AM
You then hold the previously made piston rod in the tailstock (preferably in a collet) and bring it upto the piston which ensures it is as true as possible when screwed in. Remove from chuck and add the locknut to the previously machined top.

:headscratch: J I think you have forgotten what shape this piston rod is. And don't forget there is a cover and a gland to go in there as well.

Edit: and before you go trying to hold the piston on the piston rod o do the machining make sure it is only the lightest skim needed. Cast Iron can have hard spots and one of them just caused the thread on my jig to be broken  :(. Just imagine if that had been a piston rod  :paranoia:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on July 31, 2016, 11:01:33 AM
Large split collet would hold the rod, gland, cover etc no problem and keep everything concentric which will help give a free turning engine, no need to resort to a hammer and drift to move the pistion like your other engines.

Hard spots in CI, not when I make my pistons from bar rather than castings :LittleDevil: And don't try to cut the piston ring grooves with it on the piston just skim the OD :ShakeHead:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on July 31, 2016, 11:31:01 AM
Large split collet would hold the rod, gland, cover etc no problem and keep everything concentric which will help give a free turning engine, no need to resort to a hammer and drift to move the pistion like your other engines.

I will probably be using one of the Hardinge 3 jaw chucks to hold it as they have less TIR than your normal run of the mill ER collet.

If you  :old: remember correctly I said that the No 9 piston was free moving in the cylinder, however I have sprung the piston rings too much and with the pair of rings fitted it is very tight in the cylinder. Looking at the size of the LP rings on this engine I will have to investigate those as well. Smelly may be getting a chance to play  ;)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on July 31, 2016, 04:02:32 PM
A full set of ring carriers made  :) In the end I stuck with the jig I had tried earlier but provided tailstock support. Each of the pistons fits snugly between its covers allowing maximum movement.

Smelly (complete with two boxes of nitrile gloves to help with handling  :ThumbsUp: ) honed the smaller cylinders but doesn't have a hone big enough for the LP cylinder and found that my brake hone had a broken stone  :facepalm: So flea bay is sending me a replacement hone (it was cheaper than buying a set of stones  :headscratch:)

Which now means I can start looking at other things to fit :naughty: and I have lots of fasteners to make  :-\

Jo

Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: 10KPete on July 31, 2016, 04:14:31 PM
That next to last pic: You have a regular engine factory going there!! I love following this work you're doing.

 :cheers:

Pete
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on July 31, 2016, 06:11:53 PM
Thanks Pete,

I am looking forward to finishing these engines so that I get my bench back  :ThumbsUp:.

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on August 03, 2016, 08:09:50 PM
Lucky's features continue to keep me on my toes  ::) So the valve chests have been "partially" machined  :headscratch: They sort of match the cylinders and have covers that have holes that match the valve chests...all of which were over width and one has the valve spindle holes drilled on an angle  :facepalm: So I started with trying to work out which side was up and taking those to width. I will have to work on repositioning the hole for the end of the valve rod later.

As for the others I am missing on HP valve chest which will have to come out of bar stock. There are more pot holes in the LP covers than an Hampshire A road  :ShakeHead: And those recesses in the covers seem to be a bit small and not in the centre and only three have their chucking pieces still in place :-\

So first step take the chests to width, with Lucky's valve rod in the correct line relative to the outside.... I am still thinking about those covers  :thinking:

Never a dull moment working with orphaned castings  :lolb:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on August 03, 2016, 08:43:55 PM
Might look nicer with square or rectangular recesses machined into the covers with a radius corner cutter so they still look cast when if painted. That would also let you center them up.

If you dry out some alphabeti spagetti the S can be filed flat on the back and stuck into the middle of the recess :LittleDevil:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on August 05, 2016, 05:33:19 PM
The pot holes were bad in the valve chest covers :ShakeHead: I've ended up having to skim what was going to be the inside and will look to use that as the outside and had to fill the remains of the pot holes with JB weld. I think all the recesses will need remachining: they are random diameters, depths and not central  :disappointed:

It was about now that Tgs got a little concerned as he saw his dividing head removed from his table and put on the shelf.  He was much happier when he saw the cube return, be squared up and he realised he was allowed to get back to machining the cylinders. :) There is nothing to come off of the ends of Lucky's cylinders but the other two still had a bit to come off and another pot hole in the valve face which thankfully has gone now the cylinders are to length.

Lucky's cylinder is now sporting a bit more JB weld around the studs that filled those " extra features" you may recall were in the LP valve face  ::)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Dave Otto on August 06, 2016, 01:17:01 AM
Isn't the shaper feeling a little sad that you have taken his parts and used them on another machine to do an operation that he is perfectly suited to do?? And he wouldn't leave all those circular marks all over your engine parts.  :LittleDevil:

Enjoying your progress Jo.

Dave
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on August 06, 2016, 08:42:38 AM
That Shaper is on borrowed time  :(

I tried selling it once and only had one person turn up. I think he was more interested in the novelty factor of a woman with a workshop than buying the shaper  :ShakeHead: Since then I have been reusing the bits and bobs elsewhere as like that box it is more valuable as a box for the mills than I could get for the entire shaper complete with electrics, machine vise etc  :-\.

That shaper needs dials and thingys made for it if I wanted to do accurate work on it and I have never forgiven it for giving me a black eye  :censored:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on August 07, 2016, 04:30:52 PM
The centre of the cylinder line was found and the first the two sides were taken to width before drilling for the chest studs.

I had a slight problem on one of the cylinders that I had to remachine the ports in: If you recall it had a pot hole that interfered with the port so had to be cut out and a new plate fitted in to repair it. As I drilled through the ends of the port slots the drill I was using was slightly bent and snapped off :ShakeHead: Which meant it had to be left till last and the slot cut nearly up to it and the offending end wheedled out.

About this point thinking I had finished I realised that Lucky's valve faces have not been taken to width  :facepalm:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Bluechip on August 08, 2016, 11:09:12 AM
Jo

My soul is adrift on an ocean of doubt and uncertainty ...  :(   .... again.

Last pic.

The RH cylinder appears to have 4 'things' maybe holding a new port-face but the ports seem to be cast in so probably not ...  :thinking:

The centre cylinder has milled ports so I assume that is the one with the new port face but I can't see how it's attached to the cylinder casting ??

Apologies if this has been covered previously.

A baffled Dave
 
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on August 08, 2016, 11:49:01 AM
Hi Dave, thanks for patiently following along  :)

The right hand one is Lucky's cylinder and those four extra holes that have been plugged are where someone drilled the wrong end of the cylinder casting to mount the HP cylinder casting before realising they drilled the wrong end and drilled it to take the valve chest ::)

The centre cylinder set does indeed have the replacement port face: It has been secured with High temperature/strength 638 Loctite and the outside tided up with JB Weld and it also has four of the valve chest studs that go through it which will make sure it is going no where  ;)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Bluechip on August 08, 2016, 04:00:53 PM
Ah! All is now clear ..  :ThumbsUp:

You certainly made a good job of the rework joint on the centre cylinder.  :praise2: I could see no vestige of one at all.

( I'm beginning to think I may have a go at some modest castings engine. It appears Stuart do an oscillator as do Blackgates ( V-twin ), now the workshop roof saga appears to be coming to an end at long last ..  :cussing: ).

Dave






Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on August 08, 2016, 07:52:25 PM
Thanks Dave :thinking: Yes they do look rather nice. I see Bogs did a restoration a couple of years back of the Stuart engine http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php?topic=1689.0  8)



So Lucky's cylinder: the LP side should have been a case of just milling down either side to bring it to size but I then discovered that the holes for the studs were too short and one of the mounting bolts I was using sheared off >:( thankfully leaving a bit to line up with and drill out.

The HP cylinder had to have its valve chest fitted a coupe of times before I was convinced   :noidea: all the spare was on one side, which actually was the same as one of the other cylinder sets so it too had the sides milled to match the valve chest.

Then the ports: No they are not square or to size on any of the HP cylinders, they are what is termed a casting feature  :Lol: As you can see they are at a jaunty angle and the centre slot is already to width so its a case of line up with the exhaust port as well as possible across its width and call that the centre line of the ports drop a 3.2mm cutter in for good measure then off set 5.16mm either side and carefully wiz the two ports leading to the cylinder ends to a nice 2.4mm width and the resulting ports are square but not in the centre of the cylinder but they will do  ;). 

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on August 09, 2016, 01:28:09 PM
Next step take the two sides on the valve chest and covers to the same width as the ends of the cylinder.

The only issue here was that Lucky's HP cover was fractionally over width and the direction that needed some taken off was already too close to the side  :facepalm: I took it off the other side and some adjustments will be needed on the slightly undersized holes in the appropriate directions  :-X

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on August 09, 2016, 06:41:13 PM
Using first a level and setting the offset from the lathe tool then a dial on Lucky's valve chest boss. All of the bosses have been taken to 8mm long and 6.5mm diameter and domed  :)

With Lucky's I had to first find out how much needed to come off the top of the chests and take that skim before offsetting to the top of the boss and taking to length. The easiest to set up and turn was the piece of bar stock as it could be lined up on the correct point for the rod then taken to 8mm depth and the centre turned to diameter. The final stage is to use a form tool to make a perfect dome  :naughty:

Six matching domes. Only another three to go  ::)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Chipswitheverything on August 09, 2016, 09:26:27 PM
Thanks for continuing the detailed account and photo record of this build , Jo.  Some saga it is! , and some of the things that you are coming across would surely make lesser spirits flag, I should imagine.   It's hard to see how many more permutations of getting it all a bit wrong the original optimistic builders of these engines could have come up with.   Mind you, I haven't started my own Triple yet......
 Your form tool looks more than slightly reminiscent of a carbide tipped router bit - never thought of seeing if one of those would answer for that purpose, ingenious...

Dave
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Roger B on August 10, 2016, 07:30:31 AM
I'm still following along and enjoying your solutions to the unique features  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp:  :wine1:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on August 10, 2016, 07:34:57 AM
Thanks Dave  :)

Your form tool looks more than slightly reminiscent of a carbide tipped router bit - never thought of seeing if one of those would answer for that purpose, ingenious...

I have a range of these "form" tools they come in a number of different diameters both metric and inferior for a couple of pounds each (plus a free bearing every time  ;D )

Speaking of tooling... I have been picking up a number of carbide tip lathe tools from china of late. It is beyond me how they can make, sell and post them to me for the price  :headscratch:. I am less convinced on the quality of some the tips they sell but then I am comparing them with my Sumitomo tips


Hi Roger, thanks for sticking with us, I promise it will soon be all finished  :lolb:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on August 11, 2016, 01:18:11 PM
How did I do that  :facepalm:

All those years ago I cut those two spare valve chests out of bits of bar stock and now I find that the HP valve chest is not long enough to get the gland boss out of. It will need a sticky on bit added   ::)


I had to side track Mr Silky from his new hobby which is studding for me and redirect his attention on to the valve rods: We didn't get far  :disappointed:

We managed to save one of Lucky's original valve rods which just had its end 2.44mm instead of the required 2.4mm, another was already undersize at 2.2mm diameter and the third rod was too short  :Doh: At least one end is done on all the rods and they just need taking to length and the 5BA thread added to the other end.

I will just have to show a bit of self control this evening and not go anywhere near the casting cupboard until the other ends are done  :embarassed:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Bluechip on August 11, 2016, 09:28:59 PM
Never thought of using router cutters as a radius tool-bit  :facepalm2: which is a bit strange as I've used them in the mill on plastic & ally ...  :headscratch:

Anyway, some more splendid progress   :praise2:  Do I sense the topping-out shindig getting nearer ..  :DrinkPint:

What are the valve castings? C.I. or bronze. Can't tell, colour rendition not too chipper.

Fitted guttering to one side of the w/shop today. Now slopes towards the downpipe and does not get clouted by the side door when I open it. ..  :ThumbsUp:  Suppose I'll get used to the novelty eventually.

Dave

Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on August 12, 2016, 08:36:03 AM
Thanks Dave,

I hope to have the cylinder sets done by the end of the month which will be a good reason to  :drinking-41:

The Valves are all bronze. For some reason I have three new sets of valves: Maybe no one tried making valves for lucky but there was an odd one I found  :noidea:


I hope you have some nice insulation under your shed roof. Guttering.. I never fitted that new shed that I put up earlier this year I should have but I have the spare imperial gutters and all the brackets I could find were metric  :Doh: Might need to have another think as the winter is round the corner  :paranoia:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on August 12, 2016, 05:42:40 PM
There was lots to come off the bottom edges I was not convinced the dimensions were right  :noidea:

Starting with the sides which vary for each cylinder the valves were taken to width then an under cut of 1.6mm added for the top of the valve. Then turn 90 degrees and mill all the valves to the same 15.88mm width, again with the same 1.6mm step around the edges.  It seemed strange that with other castings being within 0.8mm on dimensions that these were nearly 5 mm over size  :headscratch: I also skimmed the face but I still need to take them all to 11.1mm overall height.

I also decided to mill the last two LP cylinder ports they were not far out but probably enough. And of course there is still the IP cylinder ports to mill and other tickly bits in the joint  :facepalm:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Don1966 on August 12, 2016, 08:19:35 PM
Jo I figured I better show my face so you would know that I am still with you girl. Your the top's girl, awesome work as always......... :praise2:

Don  :drinking-41:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on August 13, 2016, 03:02:55 PM
Hi Don, thanks for showing your face  :) I did wonder if you were another who had given up on me, this build does seem to be going on for ever  ::)

Before it got too humid this morning I finished off milling the valves to height before heading out to the garden  8)

As I have now finished gardening for the day  :old: I am back in the workshop and have started the valve pockets. There is nothing difficult about valve pockets you just have to trust your machine with a smallish milling cutter, this one is 2mm diameter, and run it nice and fast  :)

Using a wobbler the centre of the valve is found in both directions (on subsequent valves as they are all exactly the same width the centre only needs to be found in one direction). Then dropping the cutter into the pocket, that already is in the casting, the cutter is taken out to the centre of one of the ends, to the corner, to the next corner and so on. The trick being to drop the milling cutter when it is in the pocket in the middle and not when it is on the edge of the valve pocket we are milling.

And you may notice I have marked the face up in red. This is to help me see what I am doing  ;) Two down, seven to go...

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on August 13, 2016, 03:27:37 PM
Looking good Jo

Do you not use a vice stop? would save having to locate each part. I use mine for two or more of anything let alone 9 or 18. If you added up all the time you would save you might be playing with the next set of castings by now ;)

The DRO can be used to reset the Zero for each set of three so thats 17 tool changes and 8 ctr findings not needed
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on August 14, 2016, 11:22:56 AM
Thanks for reminding me I dug it out and it sped up the last couple.

Milling the top slots didn't take long then  :o No, no, no :wallbang: A hole. The pockets in the valve castings did look a little deep and on one of the IP valves it came through.

So first using a clockmaker's broach to open up and clean up the inside of the hole. A clock maker's pin was found to fit and its top slightly expanded to increase the surface for the silver solder to fix to. An escapee ball of sliver solder was squashed flat to make it stay put a bit of heat and we have a filled up hole  8)

Jo

Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: NickG on August 14, 2016, 08:16:23 PM
Am still watching Jo, immense amount of work in these and you seem to be getting better all the time too!
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on August 14, 2016, 08:34:32 PM
Thanks Nick  :),

A quick shot of where I have got to this afternoon, nothing exciting so no machining shots: I was pleased to get 5 nuts out of the piece of brass that came with the Italian part set but I will admit that Sexy  :Love: did help. He was parting off the nuts such that they only needed a little rub on a piece of emery to get them to be a sliding fit in their respective valves.

The next job was to get lucky's valves to fit their steam chests, which was a simple filing job on the inside of the steam chests. (Lets not mention the stud holes just yet  ::) ) Last I saw Tgs had helped himself to his Swiss 4" vice, has squared it up to within a Workshop Gnome's whisker and is patiently waiting for me to offer him the other four steam chests to finish off .

I keep thinking I must be getting near the end on these engines then I look again at the parts list  :noidea:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on August 15, 2016, 09:05:41 PM
He's back  >:(

I have a few months and no trouble but now its cricket season so we are back on the Workshop Gnome's favourite game of catching the part I am in the middle of making and running off to play "me hide it, you go seek it" :facepalm:

Initially it was going ok. No problem with facing off the ends of the bar..... No problems with sticking out the same distance every time from the vice so that I could drill the hole in the same place..... No problem using the slitting saw to cut the slot in the end...No he bides his time  >:(

It was as I had hacksawed off each bit he had worked out somehow to make the part go flying through the air and down the gap behind the door to make me try and find what he had done with it and it is never where you expect it would be  :rant:

I have recovered all 8 of them that he tried this little game with (he must have been asleep for the first two) ... so half way through the valve rod ends I hope to get more progress tomorrow  ::)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: crueby on August 15, 2016, 09:30:36 PM
 :lolb:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Alan Haisley on August 15, 2016, 09:34:58 PM
...
It was as I had hacksawed off each bit he had worked out somehow to make the part go flying through the air and down the gap behind the door to make me try and find what he had done with it and it is never where you expect it would be  :rant:
...
Jo
Sometimes I'll drop or throw a similar piece in a similar way so I can see how he runs after grabbing it. Sometimes it even works.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: mal webber on August 15, 2016, 09:57:50 PM
Hi Jo, now were your coming from on the hiding parts this seems to happen lots in my shed, first one fly's away from the vise not to be found them I flick the one I made from the same place hopping to see where it went and loose that aswell  :facepalm:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on August 16, 2016, 01:25:41 PM
:paranoia: It would seem the Workshop Gnome is out sunbathing himself..

Having faced the bottom of the clevis to give a flat surface to measure off of, the depth to the bottom of the hole could be measured by poking a suitable drill in the hole and measuring the distance. This was then dialled up on the DRO and that end is a simple turning and tapping task.

The final stage is filing to size using buttons, 9 more to file. Then the Gnome can have one to keep  ;)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on August 21, 2016, 12:15:13 PM
I've been working a little on the Steam chests: Having drilled the stud holes I realised I had forgotten to put the extension on one of the chests so that was turned up then held securely for 24 hours while the Loctite went off.

The IP has a little tail rod that sticks up. Was hoping to reuse Lucky's one but then noticed a nasty line around it  :disappointed: So first turning the top and using my form tool three tails were turned up. Then turned round for the bottom to be turned, threaded 3/8" by 40 and reamed when  :o I realised that someone had used a non standard thread on Lucky's original tail rod  :facepalm: Also the indentation on the top is a little deeper than to drawing. Thankfully the thread looks to be BSF and a very nice man dropped some taps and dies off for me that I hope will include a die for this  ;D

After the tails Mr Silky turned up some inspection caps Sexy was good enough to slot them for me. So I am nearly ready to start work on the IP steam chest  :paranoia:

This afternoon I can finish off the outer steam chests  ;).

Jo

P.S. For your own good I am not posting any photos of Sexy using his tool  :hellno:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on August 22, 2016, 04:45:53 PM
I'm still doing steam chests  ::) Thankfully I found the correct sized long reach drill for drilling the valve rod hole 2.4mm. I then forgot to open up the other end of the valve rod hole to 4mm so it had to go back into Tgs vice for a second go.

The covers were clamped on to the tops of the chest and milled to length before mounting up in a four jaw to have the recesses properly turned. The originals were not central to the cover  :disappointed:

I must be honest and admit that I am loosing interest in valve chests and not looking forward to the IP chest so I found myself first fondling the last but one casting, then giving it a little fettle before I felt the need to start turning it  :mischief:

One has to avoid the desire to cut the cap off the casting  :o as that is actually the chucking piece for turning the bottom of the valve. An interesting piece to turn as I first turned it square then had to tap each to get the centre of the body running true, re-turn the bottom before centre drilling which made it secure enough to turn the outside of the base to diameter.

One casting was bent and had to be encouraged straight again  :-\ and I will have to work out what to do with the bottom of Lucky's pump as the hole is not central and the water pipe is supposed to attach with a 4BA thread into that hole  :Doh:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Bluechip on August 22, 2016, 08:46:17 PM
Ye Gods .. I must admire your perseverance. Is there no end to the nadgery bits on these engines? 

I would have thought it to be easier to fabricate the pumps from round bronze/brass bar and Silver Solder.
Apart from an elliptical flange, just looks to be concentric turning, or is that something else I've got wrong?


Dave


Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: 10KPete on August 22, 2016, 08:53:50 PM
Ye Gods .. I must admire your perseverance. Is there no end to the nadgery bits on these engines? 

I would have thought it to be easier to fabricate the pumps from round bronze/brass bar and Silver Solder.
Apart from an elliptical flange, just looks to be concentric turning, or is that something else I've got wrong?


Dave

If one were needing just a couple of pumps, fabrication would be the way to go. But when you're making kits of parts by the dozen then castings are called for.

But then some people must have their castings to fondle.....   :naughty:
And some take it as a challenge to figure out how to machine weird shapes.

Pete
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Bluechip on August 22, 2016, 09:39:08 PM
If one were needing just a couple of pumps, fabrication would be the way to go. But when you're making kits of parts by the dozen then castings are called for.

But then some people must have their castings to fondle.....   :naughty:
And some take it as a challenge to figure out how to machine weird shapes.

Pete

You could be right, didn't look at it that way ...  :headscratch:

Hadn't noticed .. Who might that be then ??   



 :LittleDevil:  :LittleDevil:  :LittleDevil:

Dave
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on August 23, 2016, 06:53:51 AM
Thanks Dave and Pete  :)

If one were needing just a couple of pumps, fabrication would be the way to go. But when you're making kits of parts by the dozen then castings are called for.

One of my other casting sets is for a Armstrong Hydraulic Engine, and the suppliers provide all the plumbing as difficult to hold, underside castings (based on other builder's experience). I had already decided to make those all out of bar stock before I saw the :o price

I should have a couple of other orphan castings turning up later today that I will have to get to know better  ;)

In the mean time there are those cylinder castings to split to do the IP valve chest  :paranoia:

Jo

Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on August 23, 2016, 07:28:09 AM
If one were needing just a couple of pumps, fabrication would be the way to go. But when you're making kits of parts by the dozen then castings are called for.

The other way to look at it is most normal builders will only require one pump each so the fabrication route is quite a sensible one, just leave the part out of the kit ;)

Jo I thought you may have set them up on the mill and used the B&F head that way its very easy to get the bore through both of then in exactly the same planes as they can both be done at one setting, how did you ensure the second bore is true to the first?
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on August 23, 2016, 08:02:35 AM
As one side has a pair of balls rattling around in it to act as valves, it doesn't matter if it is not 100% parallel to the main pump ram.

 :headscratch: The drawings show the ram being made of brass rather than stainless  :slap: Time to go and look at the IP steam chests.

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on August 23, 2016, 11:33:02 AM
The cylinder sets have been parted  :paranoia:

The first job was to drill and tap for the intermediate exhaust port and its studs.

The bit that I had not been looking forward to was having to open up the cavity for one of the valves. On two of the cylinders this cavity was very deep and very close to the cylinder bore but the third it was not. It was not deep enough for the valve so a deeper pocket had to be milled I decided not to go to the depth of the other two cylinders but to leave it at 15mm which is just deeper than the outer two steam chest  :).

I wonder if I have been thinking too much about this bit and really it is as easy as the rest  :noidea:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on August 23, 2016, 01:12:55 PM
The IP valve rod must go 8mm in from the valve face and be central to the bore not the casting  ;)

So then it is a case of using the same nice and accurate long reach drill drilling for the valve rod pilot hole from one side to the other, then drilling through 4mm for the far side tapping hole before boring the centre hole 6.35mm diameter. Before moving from the vice drill the two tapping holes for the stuffing box. Turn over and use the 4mm drill to centre the casting and counter bore 8mm for the knobby bit

Off to the UPT to tap the holes add the knobby bit. Now I have a choice start on the last casting in the set  :whoohoo: or continue playing with that one from yesterday    :naughty:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Rivergypsy on August 23, 2016, 01:20:30 PM
Lovely work, Jo!
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: joe d on August 23, 2016, 02:27:19 PM
Looking good, Jo!

I admire your tenacity, I suspect I would have tired of the whole project some time back....

Joe
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on August 23, 2016, 02:38:04 PM
Thanks Guys  :) I promise we are nearly there, we are nearly there

I decided to be good and continue work on the Stuffing box. You can either mess around with a four jaw chuck or use my technique of supergluing the part on to the end of a piece of bar for turning the 6.35mm boss. The drawing shows this at 3.2mm long but the casting is thicker than that so I opted for 5mm which will give us more to hold on to in a mo  ;) Having decided to make a replacement for Lucky's stuffing box the missing one is coming out of this piece of gunmetal.

And then this arrived: so castings stop play   :mischief:.

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Roger B on August 23, 2016, 03:35:15 PM
And then this arrived: so castings stop play   :mischief:.

Jo

 :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp:  :wine1:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on August 23, 2016, 04:06:37 PM
I don't know about that parcel stopping play as I expect you have been playing with the contents all afternoon ;)
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on August 23, 2016, 04:49:14 PM
I don't know about that parcel stopping play as I expect you have been playing with the contents all afternoon ;)

 :hellno:

I have modified the design of the stuffing box so that some "reduced size" nuts fit  ;) this means that it can now be held in a 5C collet by that boss and turned to length and have the upper oval turned to 16mm diameter down level with the lower flange.


In amongst some other items  :embarassed: I received a spare set of castings for the Original Westbury dividing head. This is what it is: http://neme-s.org/Model_Engineer_Files/Light%20Vertical%20Milling%20Machine%20%2310.pdf  & http://neme-s.org/Model_Engineer_Files/Light%20Vertical%20Milling%20Machine%20%2311.pdf  I have to decide if I am going to use it as Raw Cast Iron for my models or see if I can find it a new home :noidea: I have a 60 tooth wheel Std Myford gear to go with it  ;).

And the best bit is that nice person has sent me some castings for an upgraded crankshaft turning jig  :whoohoo: :drinking-41:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: pgp001 on August 23, 2016, 05:13:49 PM
Jo

There was a part finished one of those dividing heads on ebay last week, I almost bid on it but decided not to bother in the end.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Small-indexing-dividing-head-project-/122077271488?hash=item1c6c5f55c0%3Ag%3AIaYAAOSwdzVXqNee&nma=true&si=cEvMoeqoU4zPGcIB5iAxc3fvU5w%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Phil
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on August 23, 2016, 05:16:22 PM
I wasn't thinking it was worth that much  :hellno:.

I was thinking £30 and the new owner can pick it up at the ME show or pay for a courier to pick it up.

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Bluechip on August 23, 2016, 05:43:47 PM
Jo

I have one of those 'fabricated angle plate' things .. just like that one, top left last pic. . err ... somewhere ..  :headscratch:

No makers identification anywhere.

Who made them, do you know?

Dave
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on August 23, 2016, 05:51:44 PM
Sorry Dave, no idea. I picked that one up from Steve from HMWS for £20.

The problem with it is the clamp is a bit narrow and it cannot hold anything as small as most of our crankshafts. The one made from a bit of cast Iron from Tug is excellent but a bit small for the engines that have been nestling onto the dining table of late  :embarassed:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Bluechip on August 23, 2016, 06:35:09 PM
Ah well. At least you know where yours came from. I don't .... except I certainly remember having it when I bought my first house in April 1977 ... ( My new next door neighbour, Emma, 4, said 'What's this'? and promptly dropped it on her toe ...  :'(   Fortunately choc ices have great healing properties   :D  )

Dave

Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: pgp001 on August 23, 2016, 07:56:05 PM
That Keats angle plate is the same as mine I think, I had to reverse its loose jaw, tap some new holes nearer the nose end and machine some off the front to make it useable.

(http://i456.photobucket.com/albums/qq286/pgp001/Model%20Engineering/Pollit%20and%20Wigzell%20Mill%20Engine%20%20Agnes/My%20Model%20of%20Agnes/Barring%20Engine/Barring%20Engine%20001%2028-05-16_zpsjjsyfzuw.jpg)

(http://i456.photobucket.com/albums/qq286/pgp001/Model%20Engineering/Pollit%20and%20Wigzell%20Mill%20Engine%20%20Agnes/My%20Model%20of%20Agnes/Barring%20Engine/Barring%20Engine%20003%2028-05-16_zpslmlrfqjt.jpg)

Phil
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on August 24, 2016, 07:12:51 AM
Yes that looks like the beastie I have just acquired  ;D

Must try to be good and leave it alone  :slap: and get on with the Orphans.


The other little distractions that came in the box include a Clarkson Vertical and a Twin Horizontal both without their valve chests and the Horizontal its crosshead guide thankfully all missing parts are easy to make from bar stock. And some odds and ends from a smaller bronze cylindered engine that I hope to have identified tomorrow when I pick up the drawings for the engines  ;).

Jo

P.S. I can't see myself doing the horizontal twin so it is open to offers.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on August 24, 2016, 07:33:00 AM
Interesting plumbing on that Horz twin, should suit you as I don't think it will run like that :LittleDevil:

Is the Horz one that Blackgates now do as they may be able to supply castings if the next owner did not want to cut from solid.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on August 24, 2016, 07:50:19 AM
Yes Blackgates were doing the single cylinder Horizontal of this engine for £84 at the Bristol show and are willing to provide odd castings if people want them. This one is the Clarkson "Compound" which is two of the single cylinders together as shown in the photo.

:headscratch: No I think it is connected to the exhaust on the left hand engine and there is a flange for the air input just in front  of the exhaust connection  ;)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on August 24, 2016, 09:28:21 AM
Drilling the boxes is a simple task. But if you look at where it has to mount you realise that the drawing is not correct  :disappointed: it does not show that the side has to be cut away to fit around the HP cylinder cover and if you put the gland studs where it shows on the drawing it breaks through the side of the casting  :facepalm2: .

One done two more to file to shape and Lucky's original is going in the reject box  ;)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Steamer5 on August 24, 2016, 10:23:29 AM
Hi Jo,
 Still following
Still enjoying
And best still, still learning!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on August 24, 2016, 06:02:14 PM
Thanks Kerrin  :)

The tops of the water pump come as that chucking piece I was using to hold the pump to turn its base. Having cut it off and turned the threaded part to 9.53mm diameter. I decided to let Sexy polish the hexes on the top of the cover before returning it to Mr Silky to turn to length, threaded them and finally used a ball nosed cutter to make a 8mm diameter recess in the bottom of the covers.

At this point I decided it was time to have a tidy up on the bench and  I found another two castings for the Orphans  ::). In the meantime Tgs had found a casting of his own. :thinking: This may not be a bad idea if he does that for Mr Silky the two of them may begin to be a bit more friendly towards each other.
But he is going to have to wait as I have turned the lights out on him for this evening and will be away tomorrow spending money  :whoohoo:

Jo

Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Dave Otto on August 24, 2016, 07:16:43 PM
You just couldn't stand it could you?  :lolb:

The engines are continuing to look great BTW.

 :cheers:
Dave
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: fumopuc on August 24, 2016, 07:35:35 PM
Hi Jo, the last family shot of all the bits and pieces is impressive.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on August 24, 2016, 08:45:15 PM
Jo, I haven't said much : damned impressed I am,  however,  I must confess,  this is almost like a machining version of what us hippies did on the riverbank in the early '70's :naughty: :mischief: :lolb: :Jester: :lolb:

Big E
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on August 24, 2016, 09:13:32 PM
You just couldn't stand it could you?  :lolb:

:-X  I blame Tgs: He saw me fondling those castings yesterday and thought he wanting some of that  ::)


Thanks Achim, actually there more parts to these engines just out of the shot. I am looking forward to putting them together to get my bench back  ;)

  however,  I must confess,  this is almost like a machining version of what us hippies did on the riverbank in the early '70's :naughty: :mischief: :lolb: :Jester: :lolb:

Not sure what the hippies did back in the 70's I will have to ask my mother when I see her next :noidea:  My sister was born around '74,  does that have something to do with it  :???: My father says she was caused by too much alcohol at a party, which might account for why she is tea total all she ever does is what she calls "Red Coke"  :ShakeHead:


I will be so pleased when these are finally done  :cheers:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: crueby on August 24, 2016, 10:25:30 PM
Jo, I haven't said much : damned impressed I am,  however,  I must confess,  this is almost like a machining version of what us hippies did on the riverbank in the early '70's :naughty: :mischief: :lolb: :Jester: :lolb:

Big E

Explains a lot.   I think you were Kansas Whiskey until the, um... , Incident!   :lolb:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on August 25, 2016, 05:18:07 PM
Sorry no work on the Orphans today  :-\ I've been acquiring some goodies:

I got to fondle a set of Clarkson Cross Compound engine castings to see what was missing from the set I posted the other day and  :facepalm2: Oh dear:   I have never seen casting with their chucking pieces so far off set as the covers were, the Trunk Guides were undersized and by the time someone had bored to diameter you wouldn't have wanted to drop it on the floor it was that thin. The consensus is that other than the missing piece of cast Iron tube to make the winding drum out of and the steam chests, this set probably has all the castings in it that you would actually want to use, the others would have been " too much of a challenge". And I have drawings, and it was agreed that this casting set is for the twin cylinder rather than the cross compound, they just need a new home  ;)

Material wise I can now choose from a few other engines to build once these are finished and an under loved BCA boring head that needs some TLC   :embarassed:

Work on the Triples will resume shortly after I have fondled all of the casting sets that I now have crankshaft and cylinder materials for  :mischief:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on August 25, 2016, 06:35:15 PM
Look at all that barstock, we will soon have you weaned of those nasty castings :LittleDevil:

Did you get an ID on the little gun metal one?
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on August 25, 2016, 06:47:26 PM
All of those have matching sets of castings :pinkelephant:

No but I have a better idea of what it builds up to so it will be a second that I will be giving away to a new home  ;)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on August 25, 2016, 07:09:04 PM
Well, she'll have to buy oversized stock  because her drawings are proven to inconsistently incorrect  :facepalm:

Big E
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on August 25, 2016, 07:38:30 PM
Well, she'll have to buy oversized stock  because her drawings are proven to inconsistently incorrect  :facepalm:

The materials are only available in some odd 6.35mm diameter steps  :-\

I just hope I have got the length right for the third Anzani model as I have not yet drawn up the crankshaft from the works drawings :embarassed: but I have new photos of one ;D

Jo

P.S. I am still looking for the Anzani Fan type engine castings: I don't want to have to resort to making them from bar stock  :facepalm:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on August 25, 2016, 07:46:24 PM
The materials are only available in some odd 6.35mm diameter steps 

Thats what you get for using these antiquated suppliers, most steel stockists went to proper metric sizes years ago. But not to worry by the time you have removed that brown coating the size will come down to a nice even 6.00mm. This will have the added bonus of making the stock undersize to match your undersize castings :stir:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on August 25, 2016, 08:23:27 PM
This will have the added bonus of making the stock undersize to match your undersize castings :stir:

The bar stock is for original casting sets with the correct machining allowances and wall thicknesses  :).

They are not undersized reproductions made from other casting sets  :ShakeHead: or from any of your quality casting suppliers  :hellno: It is no wonder you have such a bad opinion of castings  :facepalm2:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 26, 2016, 12:45:10 AM
I haven't had much time on the forum lately...

But it's always worthwhile to give a  :stickpoke:

For no particular reason.  ;D
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on August 26, 2016, 07:23:19 AM
Hi Zee, welcome back  ;)

I haven't had much time on the forum lately...

Let me guess:  Too much Wine, Women and Song  :ShakeHead: Its not good for you.

What you need is a nice new milling machine and some engine castings to give your that bit of extra enthusiasm to go and make some swarf  :P

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: gunna on August 26, 2016, 09:55:25 AM
Been watching this for far too long now. I think I now know why there is no cast iron on Oz! I just can't understand why England still appears to be up high on the globe, surely it should have swung towards the bottom by now. :lolb:

Wonderful work Jo, loving every minute of it.

Ian.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on August 26, 2016, 01:36:59 PM
:lolb: Thanks Ian,

Actually I am beginning to think there is a magnetic anomaly around the South of Croydon as it seems to be attracting excessive quantities of castings of late. I am laying bets that by the time of the SMEE's Brooklands show someone will have more weight in model engine castings than I have, even if he tries to deny it :LittleDevil:


Tgs has finished grooving the bottom of the vee on the crankshaft jig and handed it back to me to make the mounting holes in it  :headscratch:

While he was doing that I decided I didn't want that BCA boring head making my assembly bench look untidy. The long and short of it seems to be that the adjuster screw's head has been rounded over. And I suspect that it is this screw that has flummoxed everyone as it is sinister  ::) And I have a matching sinister die  8) Turned and slotted the screw is now in place and all it needs is for me to make a few more mounting arbors so for now it can go and join the BCA's tooling collection.

Piston rings  :-\ These casting sets came with an odd bag of worms the three LPs single rings, three IP rings (6 are missing) and 9 off 22.2mm rings which would be much more useful if they were 19.05mm diameter  ::)

As I was in danger of using up lots of Cast Iron  :( I decided to try cutting a ring inside a ring. So having first turned an IP ring I then proceeded to turn a HP Ring. I decided that trying to save the centre of the bar as well was pushing my luck  :ROFL:

4 down and at least 11 more to go  :paranoia:

Jo

Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on August 26, 2016, 01:52:41 PM

Actually I am beginning to think there is a magnetic anomaly around the South of Croydon as it seems to be attracting excessive quantities of castings of late. I am laying bets that by the time of the SMEE's Brooklands show someone will have more weight in model engine castings than I have, even if he tries to deny it :LittleDevil:

Yes there could well be a sudden shift in the earths rotational axis in just over a week, one of the problems of making decent size engines is that they tend to have heavy castings and not much of that aluminium stuff. The good thing is that this will only be a temporary issue as they will soon get drawn back to the magnetic north in the form of working engines, what swarf is left behind will probably eventually crop up in somebody elses workshop in the form of quality machines from the land of the rising SIEG.

Actually this shift of mass won't be as bad as some people would have you believe. It's a little known fact that these castings will actually help to balance out a large deficite where a substantial rotary table was removed from a nearby scrap dealers toolshop recently by one of our lesser spotted members. Someone said it was Swiss but I think they were refering to the holes and dings in the table and not it's country of origin :LittleDevil:

J
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on August 26, 2016, 03:32:39 PM
Ring, ring, ring, ring and thankfully it took less of my bar stock than I feared.

As each ring was parted off I took the opportunity to run a file around the internal edge to smooth it off, this is easy to do with the ring solid, very difficult once broken. The breaking is easy: score the inside of the ring with a needle file (not the outside it leaves a mark  :ShakeHead:) securely clamp the ring in a good parallel clamping vice next to the mark leaving the remainder of the ring free to move. Then using parallel action pliers grab hold of the ring just shy of the mark and give it a gental wobble and the iron will break.

At this point the ring is flexible and we need to open it up and give the ring its set. I do this by clipping the rings round a bit of gash steel. Hanging them in a gap between some heat reflectors on the hearth and gently warming them. You want them to heat evenly and slowly as they set they will drop from the steel onto the hearth surface then leave to cool. After Dave's suggestion of Choc Ices the other day I have decided to see if they are an appropriate cooling timing device :P

Edit: It would seem it was  ;D and other than some silly idiot  :slap: trying to get one of the centre rings into place in one step which broke one IP ring and the workshop gnome trying to sneak the spare HP ring down a gap between the Hearth bricks  :ShakeHead: I have a full set of rings on pistons

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: picks27t on August 26, 2016, 11:07:29 PM
Ft


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on August 27, 2016, 07:40:29 AM
Do I assume that they won't be comming off again?

Must admit I prefere to get all the other work done first as it is easier to check things are rotating freely with no tight spots when you don't have the drag of new rings to contend with. You can then easily run the engine in on air and finally fit the rings on final assembly once painted.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on August 31, 2016, 02:25:20 PM
Don't know.

The inspection covers... I should have made that new pocket 16mm deep rather than 15 as the edge of the thread on the inspection cover rubs so if you don't have a plug tap it might get pushed sideways as it goes through. On one of the cylinders it was necessary to under cut the flange to provide space for the inspection cover. All had to have the surfaced faced flat.

I've started on the slide bars  :( there are so many variables in this  :( One down, two to go.

An I noticed a couple of ducks came visiting and left me a little something  :naughty:

And  ::) Mr Silky did a quality inspection on his new crankshaft jig but it did not cut mustard with him  :ShakeHead: so he decided it needed another skim

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: 10KPete on August 31, 2016, 05:03:30 PM
Matt Duck...... any relation to Donald?

 ::)

Pete
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Roger B on September 02, 2016, 11:08:01 AM
Where is that Keats casting from? I think that it will be too big for me  :(

Still following along  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp:  :wine1:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on September 02, 2016, 11:51:27 AM
Thanks Roger  :),

Where is that Keats casting from? I think that it will be too big for me  :(

 :embarassed: It was in a mixed bag of castings on Fleabay.

As you will have guessed I only bid because wanted that plate, I just had to accept it came with some more orphaned model engine castings  :shrug:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Alan Haisley on September 04, 2016, 01:51:27 AM
Jo,
With so many similar pieces, what kind of filing and storage system do you have to keep from getting them mixed?
Alan
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on September 04, 2016, 08:02:00 AM
Hi Alan,  Are you talking about the engine parts or my sets of castings  :lolb:

Due to using DROs on my machines and jigs most of the parts are interchangeable between engines  8) It is only Lucky that has had to have a couple of "specials". Which means all the same bits for all the engines can all be left in those little zipper topped plastic bags in a box on the end of the bench.


I have not been boring anyone with pictures of late as I am doing some fiddly fitting of slide bars and stuff and then there are these castings I found hiding on the assembly bench  :thinking:.



That next set of castings on the Dining table are looking sooo tempting :naughty: I will tell you it is not a single cylinder horizontal hit and miss engine and it will not be painted red, but it has only got one cylinder this time ;)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on September 04, 2016, 11:53:32 AM
Lucky's arms needed some repairs: holes filled packing pieces and a slither down the side to make them large enough to get the piece out of   :disappointed:

Then we need to make the mounting plate the reference. And correct the position of the arms on Lucky's brackets with a long screwdriver.  Now that they are all central (ish) we can check the centre height for the pump shafts. And while I was at it I milled the bottoms square.

Oh these are fun  :paranoia:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: gbritnell on September 04, 2016, 01:21:06 PM
Jo, you've got more patience than me with some of those nasty looking parts, and three at a time to boot.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on September 04, 2016, 04:15:41 PM
Thank you George  :) I will admit these engines have become a bit of a chore which must be finished.

The flanges that these brackets bolt on with are shown as 15.88mm high and the same width. But having noticed that one of Lucky's screw threads had broken into the run for the guide bar (11.1mm between bolt holes, 7Ba = 2.5mm dia bolts and a 8mm slot = not a lot to spare  :disappointed:) I decided to leave the connecting rod flanges 17mm wide meaning I have more space for the threads and the bolt heads shouldn't be hanging off the sides of the metal  ::)

The two sides were easily taken to width by hanging the bracket out the side of the vice, having first made sure the back was square.

Then I skimmed the top of the flange to remove the casting marks. which allowed me to measure to the top of the arm to see where the metal had to come off the flange. As you can see initially the flange was too high and if I had cut all the spare off the bottom of the bracket the end of the arm would have been too thin.  :(

Each arm was measured then the flange cut to size. All had to have any spare metal taken off the bottom of the flange. In the end I should just about get enough metal for a 3.18mm wide pad at the end of the arm   :thinking:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: crueby on September 04, 2016, 04:24:32 PM
Nice work on those brackets, must have taken some figuring to decide how to hold them.

You have gotten so good at multiple parts, is next engine a 16 cylinder radial?   :o
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on September 04, 2016, 04:49:00 PM
thanks  :)

You have gotten so good at multiple parts, is next engine a 16 cylinder radial?   :o

 :embarassed: I have just finished reviewing the Whittle V8 which looks a very buildable engine. But the one I am not looking forward to that is already in the collection is the Anzanis which will require 12 cylinders made :o

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on September 09, 2016, 01:18:38 PM
Now that that flu has gone away we are back on the Orphans  :)

The plain plates for the third crosshead were taken to size which showed how much metal still had to come off the sides of those other brackets  :o This is a tricky operation  :paranoia: which maybe better after one of these and a cuppa  ;)

And  someone has shown me pictures of son of Tgs  :embarassed: . Isn't he sweet  :Love:  :Love:  :Love:


Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on September 09, 2016, 01:22:42 PM
Sweet he may be but looks like he has some nasty habbits of his own, that mill in a drill chuck for one!
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on September 09, 2016, 01:35:03 PM
Sweet he may be but looks like he has some nasty habbits of his own, that mill in a drill chuck for one!

He is a teenager  :shrug: No doubt full of himself and needs a bit of appropriate handling to get him to perform

Did you notice he is also using that cheapy nasty vice when he has his correct one in his cabinet along with some other goodies  :-X

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Chipswitheverything on September 09, 2016, 02:41:29 PM
The third photographed exhibit seems to be centred and attached to a rather unusual type of ceramic faceplate, perhaps held with superglue as per your method for some componentry.  For extra security under the cutting process, will it be dogged down, or will it be "Wolfed" down ...?      Dave










Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on September 09, 2016, 03:15:06 PM
Hi Dave, I tried icing sugar but clearly didn't work as it is not sat there any more  :disappointed:

So that may have been the easy bit  :-\  all the sides are to width but next is that little challenge of cutting the slots without the piece of blancmange gunmetal folding up and going out of tolerance. You can see how easy it is going to be by one of Lucky's arms which still needs a bit more machined off, there will only be 1.6mm of metal left at the narrowest part  :paranoia:

Jo

Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on September 10, 2016, 12:57:46 PM
:paranoia: As I thought tricky little blighters. Drill first before gently milling that slot, not forgetting to drill and tap the cross heads to match. One down.

Which just leaves those holes being too close to the side of the metal and a possibility of the hexes hanging over the edges of the metal  :facepalm2: I may be making some next size down headed bolts  :thinking:.

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on September 11, 2016, 04:40:49 PM
Each of the arms had their tops milled off to the correct height and tapped 7BA. Then  :Doh: when I came to round them I realised they should have been 5BA so had to be taken out a bit and retapped.

Using the thread in the arm to hold filing buttons in place the round ends could be filed to shape. Which in turn gave the position of the back of the pad so that the correct angles for the top and bottom of the arm could be identified and milled. The two sides are tapered and are all over the place so have to be hand filed to shape.

Which only leaves the need for some 7BA bolts with 8BA heads. Having found that the 8BA Hex that I had brought for this engine from EKP was actually 4mm  :rant: I luckily happened upon two lengths of the correct size in the bundle a very nice man gave me. Thank you Dave  ;D So things were looking up and other than breaking one bolt off in a die which then had to be removed again.

The arms are in place and there is a bit of checking the fit still to do in the week.  :drinking-41:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: steam guy willy on September 11, 2016, 04:49:01 PM
Hi, Jo ,a clever way to hold thread stuff, thats gone into my brain !!I suppose you nipped up the die in the vice ? or just held it with your fingers
cool Willbert
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Bluechip on September 12, 2016, 07:09:14 AM
Jo

What's the tolerance on Hex bar anyway?

8BA   is 0.151"
5/32" is 0.156"
4mm is 0.157"

Would not have thought the average spanner would have noticed the difference.  :headscratch:

But then I've never tried an 8BA spanner on 4mm AF hex  ..........  ;D

Dave

PS Should that be 'a 8BA' or 'an 8BA' ... changed it to 'an' ....    ( Failed O-level E-Language  :shrug: :noidea: )

Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on September 12, 2016, 08:57:27 AM
Are yours stainless Jo as I think EKP only do mild steel 8BA hex stock.

Anyway you like building metric engines :)
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on September 12, 2016, 11:42:37 AM
:( I have hex that is: 3.79mm, 3.90mm and 4.00mm. The first being the BA hex stock I want the last being that metric EKP fobbed me off with  >:(. The stainless I have is 3.78mm A/F.

The problem is a 4mm spanner being too big rounds a 8BA head and a 8BA spanner will not fit a 4mm Hex  :ShakeHead: As all the other fastners are to true BA sizes it is logical to continue it.... I do not want to be accused of making bastard engines  :hellno:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Bluechip on September 12, 2016, 11:59:49 AM
Ah! Just mildly surprised the BA spanners are that accurate ...  :)

I do not want to be accused of making bastard engines  :hellno:

Jo

Perish the thought that any dastardly creature should harbour such notions  :hellno:

Dave

Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Gas_mantle on September 12, 2016, 12:13:01 PM
I do not want to be accused of making bastard engines  :hellno:

Jo

Well considering 'Bastard' means of doubtful parentage and these are 'orphans' it could very well be they are indeed bastard engines  ;)
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on September 12, 2016, 08:21:56 PM
:thinking: There is not much left so I will have to go and finish off the reversing gear. Lucky's reversing wheel had a very angular radius on the outer edge to start with.

Starting by turning the back while holding in a three jaw, then using a profiling tool to turn the outer edge mounted in a collet by the shoulder just turned the reversing wheels began to appear. The undercut on the front was cut using a boring bar before a hand graver was used to form the inner curves to the edge. the final stage was to mount on a piece of studding to use the same hand graver to turn the slight ridge off the back of the wheel.

At this stage I found the handle for Lucky's wheel was over length  :Doh: So there are three of them to make not two.

I will have to come back tomorrow and drill those four 6.35mm holes on 16mm PCD which you will note are missing from the drawing  ::)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on September 12, 2016, 08:42:10 PM
Well they would be missing from the section that you have shown us as it is cut on a vertical line and the holes set at 45deg. Though they have left teh size and PCD off the other view.

What is odd is that they show the wheel bored 1/8" and fitting onto a plain 1/8" shaft, I would have thought a threaded shaft and wheel with a locknut or square hole & shaft with a threaded end to take a nut. Don't think I would want to stick or solder it.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on September 13, 2016, 05:54:24 AM
 ::) There was a fourth photo which showed the other part of the drawing with the missing dimensions and Lucky's original wheel but for some reason it kept causing a server error when I tried loading it.

The wheel is supposed to be pinned onto the reversing shaft, its just a bit thin to start with. It will have to be a very small diameter taper pin  :-\.   

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: rhankey on September 13, 2016, 12:50:36 PM
I threaded the hand wheel onto the shaft, as it seemed way too small a diameter to be pinning well.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on September 13, 2016, 05:30:52 PM
Thanks rhankey I may still do that I could put a 4BA thread on the inside of the reversing wheel.

 :noidea: The drawing says a 2 start 20TPI thread on the reversing shaft. Counting the threads on lucky's original it does have 20 threads over the 25mm but that would equate to 2 10 TPI threads interwoven. I will assume it has the standard depth thread depth like a normal 3/16" 20TPI thread.

:thinking: And I'll need a tap for those nuts 

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on September 13, 2016, 05:41:18 PM
Knowing how lucky you have been with Lucky I would make sure he has not just got a standard single start 20tpi thread though it looks quite a steep angle in the photo.

Same thread depth just make sure you have enough clearance angle on the left side of the tool to clear the steeper helix angle
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: rhankey on September 14, 2016, 01:20:15 PM
:noidea: The drawing says a 2 start 20TPI thread on the reversing shaft. Counting the threads on lucky's original it does have 20 threads over the 25mm but that would equate to 2 10 TPI threads interwoven. I will assume it has the standard depth thread depth like a normal 3/16" 20TPI thread.

:thinking: And I'll need a tap for those nuts 

Jo

The photo of the reversing shaft looks like it does have the correct threads.  A 2 start 20TPI thread does mean each thread is at 10TPI.  And yes, the thread depth would be equivalent to a 3/16" 20TPI.

If I remember correctly, you also have a Hardinge HLV lathe as I do.  If so, that lathe is really easy to cut multi-start threads.  Once you have fully cut the first 10TPI thread, simply turn the top knob to disconnect the gearbox from the spindle, and then manually turn the spindle half a turn, then re-engage the gearbox and you are now ready to cut the second 10TPI thread.  That top knob engages a 48T gear, so you can do any number of thread starts that are divisible by 48...

Cutting the threads on the reversing shaft was done in a matter of minutes.  But cutting the threads in the reversing nut was where I had some heart palpitations.  Single point cutting the internal threads requires a very small cutter.  You can get the cutter from Thinbit if you don't want to make one.  If I had three to do as you do, I think I'd make a crude tap to cut them.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on September 14, 2016, 04:00:27 PM
If I remember correctly, you also have a Hardinge HLV lathe as I do.  If so, that lathe is really easy to cut multi-start threads.  Once you have fully cut the first 10TPI thread, simply turn the top knob to disconnect the gearbox from the spindle, and then manually turn the spindle half a turn, then re-engage the gearbox and you are now ready to cut the second 10TPI thread.  That top knob engages a 48T gear, so you can do any number of thread starts that are divisible by 48...

Thanks,  I had worked out that I could use the headstock lock to give me 6 headstock positions... so there is actually 48 we can use  :naughty:.

I tried setting Mr Silky up last night to cut the thread and  :o even at  a slow speed 10tpi is scary. I need to check again as each time I went to reverse out the idler gear slipped. I think it is a case of all the original gunk all over the gears needs cleaning off to make them hold with out slipping.

And I was wondering if these should be square threads  :noidea:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on September 14, 2016, 04:53:31 PM
Square would be nice, did that on the Fowler brake screw. You would need a 0.025" tool for 20tpi eg 20 crests and 20 valleys = 40 x 0.025 = 1"

If it is a bit scary you can always put the tool behined the work, run in reverse and it will move away from the chuck but your clutch should keep you safe
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on September 14, 2016, 05:59:08 PM
Square would be nice, did that on the Fowler brake screw. You would need a 0.025" tool for 20tpi eg 20 crests and 20 valleys = 40 x 0.025 = 1"

If it is a bit scary you can always put the tool behined the work, run in reverse and it will move away from the chuck but your clutch should keep you safe

:noidea: 0.025 * 25.4mm = .63mm have to use my (metric) cutter grinder out if I am going to grind that tool properly  ;).

Not sure why I would need to put the tool behind the work  :headscratch: Mr Silky knows how to stop at the end of a thread to within a Workshop Gnomes whisker  :ThumbsUp: But if you really must you could turn the tool upside down in the normal holder and run in reverse.


Sadly you are going to have to wait for me to cut these as I have some show prep to do before I cut the tap / threads. Friday you will may could find me in the Napier room at Brooklands with three Anzani's  :Love: and stewarding a couple of other very interesting model engines  :embarassed:

Jo

P.S. or in the trade tent or admiring some toydies in the museum  :whoohoo:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: rhankey on September 14, 2016, 06:24:21 PM
If I remember correctly, you also have a Hardinge HLV lathe as I do.  If so, that lathe is really easy to cut multi-start threads.  Once you have fully cut the first 10TPI thread, simply turn the top knob to disconnect the gearbox from the spindle, and then manually turn the spindle half a turn, then re-engage the gearbox and you are now ready to cut the second 10TPI thread.  That top knob engages a 48T gear, so you can do any number of thread starts that are divisible by 48...

Thanks,  I had worked out that I could use the headstock lock to give me 6 headstock positions... so there is actually 48 we can use  :naughty:.

I tried setting Mr Silky up last night to cut the thread and  :o even at  a slow speed 10tpi is scary. I need to check again as each time I went to reverse out the idler gear slipped. I think it is a case of all the original gunk all over the gears needs cleaning off to make them hold with out slipping.

And I was wondering if these should be square threads  :noidea:

Jo

I guess if you wanted to be a real glutton for punishment, square threads would be more correct.  I just went with standard V threads.  If you thought cutting 10TPI external threads on 3/16" diameter was scary, wait until you cut the internal threads on the nuts.

I didn't have any gear slippage when reversing out on my HLV.  So you're probably right - you might need a little cleaning.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on September 14, 2016, 06:39:03 PM

:noidea: 0.025 * 25.4mm = .63mm have to use my (metric) cutter grinder out if I am going to grind that tool properly  ;).

Luckily doing it freehand on my bench grinder allows me to do it in either metric or imperial, don't forget to stone that last 0.03mm off the cutter when you come to make the tap as it gives a little clearance on the nut.

I screwcut most of the nut and used the tap to finish things off hence it only needed to be a short stubby one.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Fowler%20A7/PICT0099.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Fowler%20construction/braketap.jpg)
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on September 18, 2016, 12:51:36 PM
I decided to use a broken centre drill to make the threading tool. This has the advantage that below the cutting edge the tool already curves away so hopefully it will not rub.

However as with all jobs on these engines tool making takes longer than the machining (if you have the right tools  ;)) so my plan was to hold the ex-centre drill in a collet . I could have held it in a boring bar holder but the Multifix holders come with a special type for holding 30mm diameter tooling, the problem being that my collet holders were of course 19.05mm or 20mm or 25mm  :facepalm: So a piece of come-in-handium was identified on the shelf and turned up as two new sleeves.

I have again dropped out that rear jaw to give myself an extra 6mm holding width on the milling vice and the slitting saw is far enough through the work that the burrs are forming on the outside not the inside  :)

So I can now hold my nicely ground tool, in a collet holder, in a sleeve, in a multifix tool holder.. so there are few excuses left I may yet have to cut those square threads  :paranoia:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: gbritnell on September 18, 2016, 01:15:12 PM
Jo,
Repurposing tools is something I do periodically. I can pick up old end mills at engine shows etc. and regrind them as boring bars, threading tools and specialty cutters.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on September 23, 2016, 12:30:28 PM
Hi George, yes never throw away a tool while it still has potential for reuse  ;).

So a little experiment   :paranoia:

 :o The 4.76mm stuff is very flexible. I think cutting the real thread will need to have tailstock support.

5 more to go  :Doh:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on September 23, 2016, 12:34:03 PM
May be the camera but your valleys look a lot wider than the crests.

Traveling steady? Oh you have not got one :(
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on September 23, 2016, 01:23:14 PM
Traveling steady? Oh you have not got one :(

Mr Silky has not got a Travelling steady yet as we are still deciding on a suitable design. The original Hardinge one is not up to our requirements  :ShakeHead:.

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: stvy on September 23, 2016, 02:18:24 PM


Mr Silky has not got a Travelling steady yet as we are still deciding on a suitable design. The original Hardinge one is not up to our requirements  :ShakeHead:.

Jo
[/quote]

When using a QCTP the original Hardinge design  :ShakeHead: is not up to anyone's requirements. :Mad:

There is only 1 thing not perfect with the HLV-H, the travelling steady and the lack of back gear.
Sorry, there are only 2 things not perfect with the HLV-H, the travelling steady, the lack of back gear, and the tail stock ejection mechanism
Etc etc etc

On a serious note it would be interesting to see your design for a new travelling steady.


Steve
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on September 23, 2016, 04:40:47 PM
and the tail stock ejection mechanism

That bit of Mr Silky works very nicely after I had a play with it :embarassed:

We are likely to end up with two travelling steadies a remarkably simple small one and a more substantial one  ;)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: crueby on September 23, 2016, 11:00:39 PM
Hey Jo, do you have a program available with a cast of characters for all the machine names? I checked at the snack bar but they were all out!   :popcorn:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on September 24, 2016, 07:39:04 AM
Hey Jo, do you have a program available with a cast of characters for all the machine names? I checked at the snack bar but they were all out!   :popcorn:

It is only the machines with distinct characters that are named. Especially the ones that make me go (http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Love/love-094.gif)

       Mr Silky - 1981 Hardinge HLV-H Super Precision Lathe
       Sexy - Sixis S-101 Universal Precision milling machine
       Tgs - Theil 158 Universal Toolroom Milling Machine
       H - Harrison Universal Mill
       Smelly - Delapena Bench top Hone
       C - 2004 Cowells Lathe
       The Colchester - 1971 Long bed Colchester Master
       BCA - BCA Jig Borer

Now I will need to go and do a bit of machine stroking and polishing  :embarassed:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on September 26, 2016, 07:17:57 AM
Well thread cutting so far has failed  :toilet_claw: Both tools broke off while still attempting to cut the first tap  I am suspecting that the bit of rod I found to make the taps out of is not Silver Steel but some other horrible stuff  :disappointed:

Mr Silky however has had a better weekend and he has a nice travelling steady to show for it that can be used both for supporting thin stuff when turning and also lines up when the top slide is turned for thread cutting  8)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Bertie_Bassett on September 26, 2016, 10:14:44 AM
thats a bugger Jo, have to try again with some fresh known heritage metal,

the steady looked nice and simple, have you got nay other photos of it? i could do with knocking up somthing for the denford
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on September 26, 2016, 10:20:50 AM
the steady looked nice and simple, have you got nay other photos of it?

I have but they are at home on the camera :Doh:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on September 26, 2016, 11:26:39 AM
Jo you might want to try grinding your cutter from larger stock so you can get mor edepth below the cutting edge, just make sure you keep it atthe right helix angle so it does not rub. Something like a 1/4" deep parting blade would be the sort of shape.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on September 27, 2016, 05:03:52 PM
Someone enquired this morning about using a hand graver to do metal turning. I think he may have put a curse on my swarf making at lunchtime as this happened  ::) Which of course meant I had to turn up another so I could provide the requested photos showing hand turning.

For the rest I am using is any old piece of bar mounted in one of Mr Silky's tool holders: this just happens to be a hockey stick shaped boring bar. The rest is below the centre line of the work, low enough for the tool plus a little bit. The tool is a long bit of HSS tool steel stuck in the end of a file handle. It is nice and long as the length provides control.

With the wooden handle grasped in my right hand (I am right handed) and my first two fingers of my left hand on the shaft of the tool for additional support you can gently turn off slithers of metal. If I had to guess I would say the inner edge on this replacement  :facepalm2: reverser handle took as long to hand turn the inner curve as to set up a profile tool and take the outer cut/smooth round with a file.

Hope that is useful Walt  ;)

Now where was I......I remember: doing anything to avoid cutting those threads  :facepalm:.

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: wdeputy on September 27, 2016, 06:30:29 PM
Jo,
Thank you for showing the tools and the setup. Looks to be a very helpful method of making odd shapes and blending. I think I will make the gravers with a shorter piece of HSS and a longer handle due to availability of stuff.

Sorry about mucking up the handwheel.
Walt
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on September 27, 2016, 07:22:16 PM
Lunch time swarf making : so does this mean that you have a "desk lathe" also  :lolb: :lolb: Just a tout  :cheers:

Big E
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on September 27, 2016, 07:27:48 PM
No problem Walt, quickly fixed, my fault for not concentrating  ;)

The four holes were first drilled then taken through to 6mm diameter before offsetting a 4.76mm slot drill to 12.7mm from the centre for the handle. Remembering that the tapping drill for 5BA is 2.8mm not the 2.1mm I originally drilled it  :facepalm2: the holes were tapped and the handles added.


Then I noticed along side those reversing shafts I had forgotten to finish off the water pumps. Clearly they needed to be finished before the threading  ;D So holding the bottom of the valve by the lower flange I machine round in one of the Pot chucks I made when I made the UPT the valve was drilled, tapped and faced.

Jo


Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on September 27, 2016, 07:28:03 PM
Lunch time swarf making : so does this mean that you have a "desk lathe" also  :lolb: :lolb: Just a tout  :cheers:

Big E

 :-X
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on September 28, 2016, 01:17:07 PM
Lunch today was more chips  :)

First hold the main chamber of the pump by the tail sticking out the bottom it allowed me to face the top of the pumping chamber. Then a centre pop was put into the centre of that tail and using tailstock support and super glue  ;) the pump was stuck to a piece of come-in-handium mounted in the three jaw and the base of the pump turned, which took a few different shapes of tool to avoid clunking the valve chamber 

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on September 28, 2016, 05:12:43 PM
Of course the other end is easier as it can now be held in a collet.

Which leaves that little problem-et of how to counter bore the other end and drill the three mounting holes in the right place to go on the sole plate  ::)

Do you like the nice central hole in Lucky's valve. Thankfully it has not yet been tapped for the water pipe  :lolb:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on September 30, 2016, 03:40:19 PM
The glands for the top of the pump were held using my usual superglue chuck before drilling the stud clearance holes. Then having drilled and tapped the top of the pump. This allowed the gland to be used as a holding spigot to drill the bottom flange of the pump.  :naughty:

First lining up using the centre of the valve as a guide to make sure everything was square the three mounting holes were drilled and the centre of the pump opened up to 5.5mm diameter.

Drilling the cross hole was done using a 5C block. As you can see the flange on the end is anything but square  ::) Hole drilled it was then necessary to sort out that flange which of course is on the end of a wobbly piece of plasticine bronze

Leaving me with the bottom of Lucky's valve clack to sort out  :thinking:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on September 30, 2016, 05:20:08 PM
The bottom of Lucky's water pump valve had to go   :facepalm2:

A hacksaw was used to remove it then a new piece was silver soldered on, with the hole in place nicely already threaded for the water pipe   ;)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on October 01, 2016, 05:32:52 PM
I found these sitting on the dining table, they don't look to be parts of the triples  :noidea:

I will have to put them away in a safe place so they don't get lost  :mischief:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Liero on October 01, 2016, 06:08:07 PM
Hi Jo

I see you finaly got your seagull casting :cartwheel:My seamew and seagull is at the moment on halt... the last progress was pattern making for the air cooled version....
Is the other engine a "normal" seal or is it the major seal?
I'm looking forward to these build logs :wine1:

Lukas
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on October 01, 2016, 06:15:15 PM
Hi Lukas  ;)

That's the missing Sealion for the collection, I already have the Seal and the Seal major  :embarassed:

No, no, no, no  :facepalm: I thought I heard sleigh bells, then Santa caught me and confiscated the castings  >:(

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Chipswitheverything on October 01, 2016, 07:09:37 PM
Great progress on the tricky pump bits, Jo, and a most interesting write up and photo log once again.  I'll be very pleased to be able to refer to your comments when my triple castings are dragged screaming into the daylight.  ( but workshop is presently reduced to chaos with DRO fitting....!)    Dave
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on October 02, 2016, 04:46:32 PM
Thanks Dave  :),

Well the pumps may have looked finished but I have spent another day on them  :-\

There was a lot of fettling needed, a bit of filling where the feed pipe flange didn't line up with the main body of the valve. Shaping up of the feed pump gland and making the top of the pump match. On fitting the balls I found one did not seat properly so had to remount it in the pot chuck and give the bottom of the hole another face.

And of course one of the tops of the valves the "valve box" was discovered to have seven points to its hex and the other was already rounding from the spanner when I tried to snug it up to the top of the valve  ::) So I chose to make replacements.


When those, now missing  :(, castings were dropped off yesterday I took the opportunity to discuss the remaining parts with my supplier, which has resulted in a few changes to the reversing gear. On the drawings the expansion die is made from mild steel, we have agreed Bronze is better. The expansion link itself is made from mild steel and I have been talked into using gauge plate luckily I have a piece the right thickness.

The final discussion was on those threads that I have been having so much fun with. And it was pointed out that I was cutting them too deep which was why the tool was breaking :facepalm: If the square profile is 0.5mm wide then it only needs to go 0.5mm deep to be square, not all the way to the 3.2mm diameter (0.8mm deep). A shallower cut should mean that I don't break any more so many tools.

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on October 02, 2016, 05:29:13 PM
The final discussion was on those threads that I have been having so much fun with. And it was pointed out that I was cutting them too deep which was why the tool was breaking :facepalm: If the square profile is 0.5mm wide then it only needs to go 0.5mm deep to be square, not all the way to the 3.2mm diameter (0.8mm deep). A shallower cut should mean that I don't break any more so many tools.

Jo

Won't that give you a funny square/rectangle/square thread as if you use a 0.5mm cutter the grooves will be 0.5mm wide but the bits between will be 0.77mm

You could do it like that but would need to grind a second cutter to make the tap as that needs to mirror the male thread so will want a cutter a whisker under 0.77mm

Easier to make one cutter 0.635mm to cut the male threads then lightly stone the sides when you come to make the tap which will give a little clearance. The thread will then have 0.635 crests, 0.635 valleys and is cut 0.635 deep so all is square hence the name ;)
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on October 02, 2016, 05:57:32 PM
 :noidea: Did I not mention I am doing them 12 tpi not 10tpi as that is one of the standard pitches in the gearbox?

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on October 02, 2016, 05:59:53 PM
No :ShakeHead:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on October 04, 2016, 01:16:25 PM
The reversing operating levers come as a piece of 9.53mm sq mild steel, it would be better if it was 10mm  :-\ An interesting link as one end is offset from the other.

The first part is simple: drill and ream the two holes. then turn by 90 degrees and using the first hole as the reference find the centre of the slot and drop a 4mm slot drill in before opening up using a 4.76mm slot drill.

Not much to go  :cartwheel: 6 more bits, 2 pipes (per engine). Fastners  :( , fastners  :(, fastners  :( , fitting/wearing in  :headscratch: and painting  :toilet_claw: Then (for after the No 9 and the AHC are done) I need another casting set for the dining room table  :thinking:

Jo

Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on October 04, 2016, 01:22:31 PM


Not much to go  :cartwheel: 6 more bits, 2 pipes (per engine). Fastners  :( , fastners  :(, fastners  :( , fitting/wearing in  :headscratch: and painting  :toilet_claw: Then (for after the No 9 and the AHC are done) I need another casting set for the dining room table  :thinking:

Jo

Don't forget your screws x 3 :LittleDevil:

What about lagging sheets and those drain cocks
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on October 04, 2016, 01:28:00 PM
I was thinking about having a play with the cocks anyway :naughty:

This is all about trying to keep the enthusiasm going  ;)

Jo

P.S. The lagging sheets can't be done until some of the fitting is out of the way.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on October 04, 2016, 01:58:09 PM
Also the small matter of 9 expansion links and 9 die blocks to do. Looks like that next set of castings will have to stay tucked up in its box for a bit longer yet :'(
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on October 04, 2016, 02:01:08 PM
Also the small matter of 9 expansion links and 9 die blocks to do. Looks like that next set of castings will have to stay tucked up in its box for a bit longer yet :'(

Yep that is two bits.

The castings are already there  >:D

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on October 04, 2016, 05:50:16 PM
This bit could very quickly go wrong  :o To try to reduce the chance I have been out with some permanent markers: The green bits are for machining and the red bits must remain. To make things more interesting the larger boss is short of the face of the smaller boss so while the top is easy to hold when it is turned over it is necessary to add a packing piece to bring it up parallel.

Time for Mr Silky's turn on these  8)

Jo



Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: crueby on October 04, 2016, 06:14:03 PM
Wow, not a lot of metal remains at the base on those. Great idea with the markers.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on October 05, 2016, 07:12:25 PM
Thanks Chris, they have got even lighter today  :)

So Mr Silky helped out rounding the ends. That mandrel is the remains of the end off the connecting rod which has been faced drilled and tapped for a 2BA Allen screw. This was then used with a filing button as a guide while the ends were turned.

The last machining stage was to reduce the piece to 8mm wide. The first side is easy as you can just rest it on the unmachined side. The second needs a packing piece to bring it level before milling.

Round the ends using filing buttons and finally play the parallel side up into the larger diameter. Which is another part done  ;D

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: 10KPete on October 05, 2016, 07:33:49 PM
Those are some amazing parts, Jo. My instinct would have been to braze the thin wall tube on to the rest of the part then finish it up. I learn something every time you post!

Pete
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Don1966 on October 05, 2016, 08:04:49 PM
You continue to inspire me Jo......  :praise2:


 :popcorn:
Don
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on October 06, 2016, 07:44:16 AM
Thanks Pete and Don  :),

There is a bit more polishing to go on those and I find polishing a bit like painting  :(.

I suspect all of you who have been quietly following along will be as pleased as I am going to be when these finally come to an end  :embarassed:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Chipswitheverything on October 06, 2016, 08:44:10 AM
These links are lovely, Jo, and your sequence and explanation are greatly helpful and encouraging to others faced with similar awkward and delicate items to machine.  ( Did you make four so as to have a spare in case of a problem at some time in the machining stages ? )   Pity that your three original builders of the Orphans hadn't been lucky enough to have had your "words and music" to guide them on their way:    but then you might not have got your orphan family....!   Dave
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: 10KPete on October 06, 2016, 08:45:18 AM
When you finish the Orphans it will be a bitter sweet moment, Jo. This journey is so enjoyable.....

Pete
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Nick_G on October 06, 2016, 12:09:59 PM
.
Jo, You need to take 2 of the finished ones and then make a steam turbine to slot into the middle of them. - It would then be just like that infamous ship that upset and caused a lot of people to have a cold bath in 1912  ;D

Trouble is I don't think anyone does castings for a turbine so you would have nothing to fondle and go gooey eyed over.  ;) ........... It would have to be scratch built.!!!  :popcorn:  ;)

Nick
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: 10KPete on October 06, 2016, 01:21:12 PM
Ah, but Jo would have to add another LP cylinder to the triples for a Titanic engine....

http://www.titanicology.com/Titanica/TitanicsPrimeMover.htm

and I suspect that she would balk at the idea...

 :lolb: :lolb:

Pete
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on October 06, 2016, 01:30:11 PM
I can tell no one wants me to finish these engines  :disappointed:

You are not alone  :ShakeHead: there is another who thinks that by writing my name on his set of Reeves Commander castings I will feel the need to give them a loving home  :stickpoke:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: crueby on October 06, 2016, 02:34:32 PM
Ah, but Jo would have to add another LP cylinder to the triples for a Titanic engine....

http://www.titanicology.com/Titanica/TitanicsPrimeMover.htm

and I suspect that she would balk at the idea...

 :lolb: :lolb:

Pete
That is a fascinating article on the Titanic engines, I never knew that those ships used turbines as well as the reciprocating engines.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on October 06, 2016, 02:58:20 PM
there is another who thinks that by writing my name on his set of Reeves Commander castings I will feel the need to give them a loving home 

Jo was that a typo, are you sure you meant to say Commander and not Commandeer ;)

No need for a turbine between two of them I think we have already talked about one of those gearboxes with the angled gears to join two engines to the one prop :LittleDevil:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Nick_G on October 06, 2016, 03:32:42 PM


Jo was that a typo, are you sure you meant to say Commander and not Commandeer ;)



I think she had a different Commander in mind to fondle Jason.  ;)

(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-IHiDt9LjaJQ/V1m8jDDGHJI/AAAAAAAAA5g/MQHP2AsvbB8kPj-9jZkr6PprvO-f5GvUgCKgB/s1600/Obit_Bond_YOLT.jpg)

Nick
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on October 06, 2016, 03:39:11 PM
I had heard that Miss Moneypenny used poisoned Jaffa Cakes :stir:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on October 06, 2016, 03:56:53 PM
I had heard that Miss Moneypenny used poisoned Jaffa Cakes :stir:

Good idea  :naughty: I'll have some ready in case a secret casting fondler visits on Saturday

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on October 06, 2016, 04:54:05 PM
Those expansion links don't really give you enough information to machine them  :thinking:.

So I have had a little scribble and I think I have all the important dimensions. I feel a jig coming on   :cartwheel:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on October 06, 2016, 05:21:14 PM
Jo something is wrong there. If the ctr line of the slot is at 2.5" radius 63.5mm how can your pivot points be only 25mm odd from the ctr? Should be 56.36mm ( 2.5 - 9/32)

Did you half the radius thinking it was diameter, or just draw a 2.5" circle.

Whats on the drawing is enough to show the critical sizes and its also correct
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on October 06, 2016, 05:51:32 PM
Yep :facepalm: Its Thursday I was just setting up the machine and I realised I had used the 63.5mm as the diameter not the radius.

Whats on the drawing is enough to show the critical sizes and its also correct

But it is not sufficient to make up a jig or to do the machining

Best stick to my normal Thursday evening activity and see what awaits me on the dining table  :)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on October 06, 2016, 06:23:00 PM
I suppose back in the day when all you had to mark out with was a scriber, rule and pair of dividers and all you had to make it with was a hand drill and files there was enough info. No need for co-ordinates for all the holes and angles for a rotary table.

Enjoy your wine, don't leave any ring stains on the table ;)
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on October 07, 2016, 04:38:08 PM
I used Lucky's original link to line up the jig ready for drilling and tapping. Little did I know it is too short  :(

My one and only piece of long loved 3.18mm thick gauge plate was carefully unwrapped and stroked a few times before cutting it into 10 pieces 19mm by 50mm .

Using the three holes plus an extra clamp the first piece was fastened to the jig. The centre and two far ends were first drilled 3.2mm, then the slot was milled 4mm and finally taken out to the 4.76mm wide. It is tough old stuff this plate  :o

I decided for the outside that, as the link outer is only 2mm wide, I would add a few M4 bolts. Yes there are only three bolts the fourth fell into an existing hole, or rather the edge of one  :disappointed:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on October 08, 2016, 03:28:23 PM
A few thoughts;

I am now running the cutters at 3250 rpm, faster would be better but it is only sexy who can do that  ::)

Starting out with new cutters on this plate is not a bad idea, it soon spots a reused cutter  :-\

Before I go any further I have need to repair the BCA  :(

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on October 08, 2016, 05:36:46 PM
I've not really found the need to run faster than I normally would for steel when machining gauge plate which is just as well as my machine would only be able to muster about half that at flat out.

I would have thought the risk of the tool rubbing would be very high on all but the largest radius, to keep a chip load of say 0.002" per tooth you will need to be feeding at about 12" per min but this will be unlikely as you tend to slow down as you get towards the end of the slot or cut.

What sort of depth are you cutting and are you doing it dry or with some lub? HHS or carbide?
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on October 09, 2016, 08:31:26 AM
The tool did not cut as well slower which is why sped it up and it now cuts very nicely  8)

The angular feed rate is my hand twiddling speed based on what it sounds like with a depth of 0.5mm per cut on the slot, using silk cut.

More importantly I still have a repair to do :(



Edit: 30 mins later the BCA repair is completed  :) The sun has out so it must be swarf making time again  :whoohoo:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: pgp001 on October 09, 2016, 02:33:21 PM
More importantly I still have a repair to do :(
Edit: 30 mins later the BCA repair is completed  :)

Broken belt ??
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on October 09, 2016, 02:41:52 PM
No Phil its that little pin that locks the collets in place. It has a habit of slipping out every now and then and letting the collets rotate rather than tightening. I don't know what happened to the original one  :headscratch:

I still have the original BCA bungee fitted  :ThumbsUp:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on October 09, 2016, 04:10:34 PM
Finally all the slotting is done and next there will be lots of filing  :)

The drawing shows the expansion die as being steel, steel running on steel  :hellno:  but I found a little something that I think will be better  :embarassed:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: kvom on October 10, 2016, 12:27:40 AM
Assuming one of the engines is to run on air, which doesn't work like steam for compounding, how is the air routed to the cylinders?  I assume not via the HP cylinder exhaust.  OTOH, if at some distant future one wanted to run on steam with compounding, then you'd want different piping.

If all cylinders receive the same air pressure, does it make sense to have different cylinder bores?

Only asking because I have the opportunity to buy a Stuart triple casting set at a good price.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on October 10, 2016, 07:42:53 AM
You are right Kvom these engines do not run very well on air  :(

I will be plumbing them up for steam but plan to put modified valves in to enable them to run on air as singles/twins. It won't sound right but will go round  and it will be simple to put the proper valves in to be able to run on Steam (assuming those valves are not lost  ::) )

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on October 10, 2016, 07:48:37 AM
We also talked through some options starting bottom of page 44.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Florian Eberhard on October 10, 2016, 09:37:44 AM
Finally all the slotting is done and next there will be lots of filing  :)
The drawing shows the expansion die as being steel, steel running on steel

There's nothing wrong with that as long as the expansion die is a lower grade steel than the expansion link (and therefore the die gets worn more than the link).

I usually machine the expansion dies (I assumed that this is another word for "link block" ?) from bar stock which is first center-drilled with the required bore. Then I change to the milling machine and put it on a rotary table to machine the contact surfaces aswell as its sides. Now the "trick" is to machine as deep as your cutter allows it (in several steps of course) so you can get back to the lathe and just part off several of the expansion dies. That speeds up the process of machinig them quite a bit, especially if you have to make 9 dies!

Florian
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on October 10, 2016, 01:14:39 PM
Case hardening is another option on onw or both steel parts
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on October 10, 2016, 02:53:06 PM
There's nothing wrong with that as long as the expansion die is a lower grade steel than the expansion link (and therefore the die gets worn more than the link).

The Stuart parts list identifies both as being made from mild steel.

Case hardening is another option on onw or both steel parts

Even Doug English when he documented a triple build in ME just left them plain mild steel.

I usually machine the expansion dies (I assumed that this is another word for "link block" ?) from bar stock which is first center-drilled with the required bore. Then I change to the milling machine and put it on a rotary table to machine the contact surfaces aswell as its sides.

As the centre of the slot is at 125mm, mounting something end on it would be rather close to the outside of your average 150mm rotary table. The BCA has a 200mm diameter table.

My plan is to secure a bit of that flat plate to the jig for machining.  ;)

Jo


Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Florian Eberhard on October 10, 2016, 03:09:37 PM

My plan is to secure a bit of that flat plate to the jig for machining.  ;)

Ah, i see, you then get a "curved bar" with several holes in it and then you machine them off piece for piece.
I just realized, I already started thinking about how I would do it on the jig - but I am curious about your solution.

Oh and my big rotary table (a Schaublin 13 rotary table) hast got a diameter of 250mm  - that wouldnt be a problem then...  8)

Cheers Florian

Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on October 10, 2016, 04:19:38 PM
Those of us with only 6" can still let it hang out the side ;)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Fowler%20construction/expansion.jpg)
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on October 10, 2016, 05:27:35 PM
Oh and my big rotary table (a Schaublin 13 rotary table) hast got a diameter of 250mm  - that wouldnt be a problem then...  8)

 8) The only challenge being lifting the rotary table on and off the milling machine table.

Now if you had a pocket sized one like Jason you could jack your piece up with one of these and it would prevent all that horrible noisy vibrating as you machined it  :)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on October 10, 2016, 05:32:08 PM
Some many tools but do you really need all those when a pair of nuts and a stud will keep things rigid?

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Hit%20n%20Miss/1-3rd%20Ruston%20Hornsby%20BPR/DSC01533_zpsyill2vju.jpg)
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: kvom on October 10, 2016, 09:07:15 PM
Given how seldom the reversing mechanism will be activated, I doubt it matter much what the die material is.

In the live steam loco world, most builders seem to harden the die and leave the strap unhardened.  I would probably use bronze for the die.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on October 11, 2016, 07:37:29 AM
Given how seldom the reversing mechanism will be activated, I doubt it matter much what the die material is.


It is not so much the sliding action when the engine direction is changed but the slight movement of the die block in the slot that you get while running the engine which after a long time will wear at the points where the link is engaged the most. There is also the constant push/pull as any slight clearance between the two is taken up. So movement is taking place all the time the engine is being run.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: kvom on October 11, 2016, 12:34:15 PM
I agree, but for a show engine running on air it would take a long time for any wear to be appreciable.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on October 11, 2016, 04:53:37 PM
This stuff is not at all soft  :disappointed: I fettled the first then decided that a bit more milling was in order.

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on October 12, 2016, 08:30:44 AM
If anyone feels the need to make themselves one of these I see there is a complete second hand set of castings on Fleabay http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Live-steam-Stuart-Turner-triple-expansion-engine-castings-drawings-/272407398504?hash=item3f6cbf0868:g:lhIAAOSw-CpX-o-j

I will not be making any more  :ShakeHead:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on October 12, 2016, 07:17:18 PM
Finally  :paranoia:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Dave Otto on October 13, 2016, 01:18:49 AM
 8)

Jo my friend; that picture represents a bunch of work with a beautiful outcome. I have been enjoying the whole project and you have been continuing to make amazing progress!

 :cheers:
Dave
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on October 13, 2016, 07:22:03 AM
Thanks Dave,  :cheers:

4 more bits to go hopefully will get those done this coming week, then comes the assembly, making all the fastenings, disassembly, painting and reassembly  :toilet_claw: But I think you guys need a break from my swarf making  ;)


In the meantime the bearing races have turned up for the next built and the castings are looking so nice :mischief:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Alan Haisley on October 14, 2016, 09:54:06 PM
I can understand why even a casting lover such as yourself might not want to make another of these. Doing these three has been EPIC.

Alan   :drinking-41:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: AOG on October 14, 2016, 11:13:59 PM
Oh no you don't Jo. You do this to us every time. You do a great build log and then we almost never get to see the end result. The threads just sort of die. Do you realize that there are 16 pages of topics in the showcase and not one of them is yours? What ever happen to the Stuart No. 9', Felgiebel, the Kiwi, the bellcrank engeine etc? Don't you dare do that to us on the Orphans.  :stickpoke:

Tony
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: crueby on October 14, 2016, 11:55:34 PM
Oh no you don't Jo. You do this to us every time. You do a great build log and then we almost never get to see the end result. The threads just sort of die. Do you realize that there are 16 pages of topics in the showcase and not one of them is yours? What ever happen to the Stuart No. 9', Felgiebel, the Kiwi, the bellcrank engeine etc? Don't you dare do that to us on the Orphans.  :stickpoke:

Tony

And no stopping for a break, we want more swarf! Keep the posts coming!
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on October 15, 2016, 07:47:47 AM
Oh no you don't Jo. You do this to us every time. You do a great build log and then we almost never get to see the end result. The threads just sort of die. Do you realize that there are 16 pages of topics in the showcase and not one of them is yours? What ever happen to the Stuart No. 9', Felgiebel, the Kiwi, the bellcrank engeine etc? Don't you dare do that to us on the Orphans.  :stickpoke:

Tony

Honestly I never feel my engines are of a standard that I am willing to put them on a pedestal  :hellno: Once they are made I have had my fun out of them and they are little more than a dust collecting ornament.

The No 9, AHC and Bellcrank are still under build and sitting on the dining table. The other two are waiting for the support team to be available and willing to attend so that they can be made to run, for some reason having to rush off to the hospital last time has put them off  :facepalm:

Discussions yesterday led to the impressions that properly fitting one triple could take 3 months  :Doh: No one, not even me, is going to be interested in a string of photos of one bit after another being added, taken off, polished a bit more, put back on  :paranoia:

Don't worry Chris there will be plenty of swarf  :embarassed: It is just the question of posting it, this one has worn me out  :toilet_claw:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on October 16, 2016, 02:20:53 PM
Those bits of Phosphor Bronze proved to cut very nicely  :) Holes drilled at 10 degrees was plenty to allow each die to be cut out using a hacksaw.

The dies were machined a nice tight fit in the slots that required a little draw filing of the curves to provide a smooth running die.

Three bits to go  :cartwheel:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on October 17, 2016, 01:16:36 PM
Having examined the Stuart display model it was confirmed that the reverser does indeed have a standard triangular shaped thread rather than square. This makes cutting the reversers so much easier  :)

It too a couple of practise runs  :Doh: to get it all set up but first up is the tap. It has been cut with a two start 12TPI thread, then flutes milled in four places to hopefully do the cutting. A square end to the shaft made and as I suspect this will need a bit of pressure to go through I also put a centre in the top.

The tap has been heated up to cherry red and had a long soak in a nice tub of Kasenite

Edit: That did not work  :disappointed: the Tap snapped. Looking at one of Lucky's nuts they have an over sized core of 4.2mm on a 4.76mm outside thread. Where as I was trying for a full depth thread  :thinking:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Nick_G on October 17, 2016, 02:44:18 PM
.
Come on Jo. :) ................ Keep going now and don't get distracted by the other castings you have horded.  ;D

Nick
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: kvom on October 18, 2016, 03:22:29 AM
Wondering if that 12TPI is per lead, or is each 6TPI?

For the reversers I did recently as an experiment in double lead threading, I found a suitable commercial tap for 5/16-18.  If your thread is truly 12TPI then each turn of the tap cuts 1/6", and that would definitely take some muscle.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on October 18, 2016, 07:24:18 AM
Jo could you try screwcutting say 75% of the thread and then chasing it with the tap, that is how I have done square threads.

Also what about a silver steel tap, a case hardened one will have a relatively soft core.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Florian Eberhard on October 18, 2016, 07:49:39 AM
Hey Jo

That always hurts if the Tool you just made breaks.
What I think is not so good is that the chip grooves are way too small. And not because there would not be enough space for the chips but because your tap then rather sticks in the metal.

If you look at the taps you can buy, the teeth are usually shorter than they are on your tap.

Hope it works next time,
Florian
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on October 18, 2016, 08:47:06 AM
Thanks Guys,

Florian I had a think and came up with the same idea: thinner flutes  :ThumbsUp:

Jason that was silver steel. I used the Kasenite as I wasn't sure but if you look at the way it fractured it was too hard. It was also not easy to cut so this time I will try normal steel and case harden it. I will also look to follow lucky's nut practise and reduce the outer diameter on the reverser and increase the bore size on the nut.

Kvom in answer to your query: that is two 12tpi threads cut between each other.

In the meantime I have been consoling myself by getting to know some more castings and already I am finding lots of undersized castings :ShakeHead: but the practise on these engines tells me there is nothing I can't fix  :)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: kvom on October 18, 2016, 01:02:01 PM
Here in the US that would be 2-start 24 TPI.  A 10-24 2-start tap would cost about $50.  I got mine from Regal Cutting Tools, but had to go through a local distributor.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on October 18, 2016, 01:31:31 PM


Jason that was silver steel. I used the Kasenite as I wasn't sure but if you look at the way it fractured it was too hard. It was also not easy to cut so this time I will try normal steel and case harden it. I will also look to follow lucky's nut practise and reduce the outer diameter on the reverser and increase the bore size on the nut.

Thougfht when you said you used Kasenite it was because you were using a low carbon steel, silversteel already has the carbon in it so why add more. Did you temper it or just leave it hard?
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on October 19, 2016, 02:28:10 PM
We have had a on and off day. It started when Mr Silky decided to mess me around and make his gear chain make click click noises  :o . Having phoned a friend and mentioned to Mr Silky that he was looking to buy a Hardinge. The postman arrived and Mr Silky realised that Daryl had brought him some more collets so he quickly made it clear that his threading clutch handle needed a slight adjustment. Not what you need when you are doing a stressful cut  >:(

I opted to go back to the silver steel and cut two taps at the same time: one with a longer taper than the other. Yesterday I mistakenly cut a three start thread on two other taps  :( before I realised that Mr Silky on his nose has a line above his chuck groove that can be used to quickly index round the gearbox rather than trying to count holes on the headstock locking ring :) I decided against hardening the tap this time and accepted that I would need to keep sharpening the tap but at least it was less likely to break but as you can see the first tap twisted through the forces needed to cut the two start thread.

Slowly with lots of lubrication, cleaning the tap, sharpening the tap, more lubrication (repeat)... the tap went through.... all four nuts ;D

I think I deserve a casting to play with after all of that  :embarassed: Speaking of which another casting set should be hot out of the foundry this afternoon: I will have to go and pick it up tomorrow  :cartwheel:.

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Roger B on October 19, 2016, 06:44:14 PM
Another step completed (with a few hiccups on the way)  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp:  :wine1:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: kvom on October 19, 2016, 08:20:06 PM
So that's how they make spiral taps!   ;D
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on October 20, 2016, 04:16:59 PM
Thanks Roger  :)

So that's how they make spiral taps!   ;D

Maybe I should patent it  :noidea:


Hot out of my sticky mitts the sand comes another set of castings. These are castings from castings and the foundry man did good, there is no noticeable shrinkage  8).

If you have been following along you will have realised Big C doesn't get much spent on him: well he did ok today. Not sure where I will put these :thinking:

Some material for 8 cylinders and one of the last remaining piece of material left over from building Concord that is destined to become the head for one of those engines. It should be nicely aged by now  :naughty:  And a piece of sticky HE 30  :facepalm2:


Normal swarf making will resume shortly :drinking-41:

Jo

Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: crueby on October 20, 2016, 05:17:17 PM
Thanks Roger  :)

So that's how they make spiral taps!   ;D

Maybe I should patent it  :noidea:


Hot out of my sticky mitts the sand comes another set of castings. These are castings from castings and the foundry man did good, there is no noticeable shrinkage  8).

If you have been following along you will have realised Big C doesn't get much spent on him: well he did ok today. Not sure where I will put these :thinking:

Some material for 8 cylinders and one of the last remaining piece of material left over from building Concord that is destined to become the head for one of those engines. It should be nicely aged by now  :naughty:  And a piece of sticky HE 30  :facepalm2:


Normal swarf making will resume shortly :drinking-41:

Jo

So you built the Concord from castings?! Nice job, it flew well! Mostly...  :lolb:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on October 21, 2016, 03:58:48 PM
Cutting the two start thread: no problem  ;D But I foolishly forgot to take the extra bit off the end which was used as the centre of one before I cut it to length  :facepalm: So an extra bit was silver soldered on and three reversing screws  :)

One bit to go, one bit to go  :whoohoo:

Jo

P.S. Plus a few undocumented bits which are missing from the drawings  :(
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: steamer on October 21, 2016, 08:15:04 PM
Looking good Jo!   

Dave
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on October 21, 2016, 08:43:11 PM
Thanks Dave,

As I mentioned just one bit left to machine (which is boring  :-\) then it is the finish fettling/fitting, polishing and painting which could keep me busy for months :toilet_claw:

Just, just  :embarassed: I may get side tracked onto finishing the No 9 and EHC and then there is that nice casting set that I found lying on the dining room table the other day :mischief:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on October 21, 2016, 08:52:19 PM
Don't you have some bending to do?
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on October 21, 2016, 08:59:02 PM
Yes fitting the steam pipes is part of the cylinder assembly, like fitting the cladding and fettling round the covers but where's the fun in pictures of that?  :disappointed:

There are 18 blow down valves I could make so that I don't get bored. ::)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Gas_mantle on October 21, 2016, 09:54:57 PM
Yes fitting the steam pipes is part of the cylinder assembly, like fitting the cladding and fettling round the covers but where's the fun in pictures of that?  :disappointed

Hmm, well you say that but I'm sure I'm not the only one here who would like to see the project completed fully and fitting cladding etc is part of the build.

Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Dave Otto on October 22, 2016, 01:20:44 AM
I think that we would all like to see the finished engines; but it seems that the Triple Engine Shop can be easily distracted by new projects in the queue (dinning room table).  :lolb:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on October 22, 2016, 07:42:58 AM
Well I at least would be interested to see how you get on bending the pipes and what methods you use before you come to fit them.

Or did you mean there was one part left to machine and after that is when you start to loose interest :-[ With a trio of casting sets arriving within the last 7 days I can imagine its very distraction for you ;)

J
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on October 22, 2016, 08:24:56 AM
Hmm, well you say that but I'm sure I'm not the only one here who would like to see the project completed fully and fitting cladding etc is part of the build.

 :thinking: Maybe at odd Blue Peter photo: "This is one I did earlier". Machining and fitting 129 studs to the cylinders  :facepalm:

I think that we would all like to see the finished engines; but it seems that the Triple Engine Shop can be easily distracted by new projects in the queue (dinning room table).  :lolb:

 Do you not use dining to get to know people/things better. There is nothing nicer than having a little fondle over a glass of wine after dinner :embarassed:

Well I at least would be interested to see how you get on bending the pipes and what methods you use before you come to fit them.

There seems to be a lot of interest in my plumbing: It doesn't have anything to do with plumbing a Fowler does it  :LittleDevil:

Two of the new comers are still on the table but that is because I am still waiting for some outstanding bits ::) They will shortly be going into the casting store if I can find some space for them  :headscratch:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on November 25, 2016, 11:14:37 AM
An update: They are still everywhere  :( and they are about to be stripped down again  :wallbang: as the paint colour was not to my liking  :ShakeHead:


So as the last moths of this year were dying off I invested them in some custom paint cans. I just hope these are a better colour  :-\

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: crueby on November 25, 2016, 02:28:56 PM
Looking forward to seeing them all together!

I did notice that you have a new movie out, Fantastic Castings And Where To Find Them!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on November 25, 2016, 03:06:44 PM
:o Don't believe everything they show you about finding rare and lost castings.

Talking of castings there is a rumour that there is a set of 1/3rd scale Gypsy castings looking for a home. I just have to work out how to acquire them  :noidea:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on November 25, 2016, 03:19:28 PM
Now if only you had bought that BS mixed paint like I suggested months ago they would all be up and running by now and you would have had something to give your Mum for Xmas.

Jo's favorite movie at the moment os 50 shades of Duck Egg Blue :naughty:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on November 27, 2016, 09:03:00 AM
Ok so I have 'seen' the Gypsy Major castings: These are a bit more involved than my other Gypsy castings  :paranoia: The more I think about it, it might be best that their owner said no  :noidea: and he also wouldn't allow any photographs  :-\

But I've seen them now  :wallbang: and I found a photograph of another set on Ron's site so I can remember how nice they looked  :(

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on November 27, 2016, 12:11:44 PM
Jo, What are the two darker castings bottom right?

Just as well you did not get to fondle them as you may have found it hard to give them back ;)
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on November 27, 2016, 12:37:50 PM
Jo, What are the two darker castings bottom right?

Those are the two steel pressings that go either side of the cylinders/heads

The current owner is a worse hoarder than my supplier  ::). I have had a couple of casting sets off of him in the past but he does not like to pass them on: The problem is that he just hasn't yet accepted that he is no longer young and fit enough to safely use his machines, let alone be able to make something this complicated/delicate/desirable  :(

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on November 27, 2016, 03:08:11 PM
I see now, seems a shame to cover up all that work

http://modelengineeringwebsite.com/Gipsy_Major.html
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on November 27, 2016, 04:09:49 PM
Actually I have been told they are two plastic moulds... and he has on yet another engine lost the drawings  :ShakeHead:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on December 21, 2016, 06:05:39 PM
Following a refurb on the BCA  :) I am back attaching eccentric arms to straps. The target is to join the two together.

A quick bush was made to fit the strap and the centre of the BCA table, into the BCA table and centred up using a wobbler. Clamp the strap round the bush, use a centre drill to find the middle of the sticky out bit for the arm. Replace with a 5.55mm FC3 cutter and mill a slot 2mm deep until the centre of the slot drill is 14.2mm from the centre of the table. put the centre drill back in and move the table out to 14.3mm out and drill for the centre of the mounting screw.

Drill through the hole and tap 2.5mm to match the not actually 7BA but 2.5mm stainless csk screws that were found in the come in handy drawer ;D

File either side of the strap to a slight taper to hide any slight miss centring :naughty:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on December 21, 2016, 06:14:10 PM
Cut the back off the screw using a junior hacksaw carefully angled away from the strap so as not to mark it. Using a needle file slightly bent into a curve file level the remains of the screw.

Fit with its friend and coat the two of them with some metal protector.

There are lots of these everywhere  :ShakeHead:

The BCA taper bearing are much more interesting. Taper outside with a slot down the side into which a spacing slither fits. This slither defines the exact diameter of the inside of the bearing - the threads on either end allowing the bearing to be pulled in and out of the taper in the main head casting. I was impressed  8)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: steve-de24 on December 21, 2016, 06:23:38 PM
Very nice work Jo.
Steve
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: kvom on December 21, 2016, 09:15:48 PM
The plans I have show the eccentrics as a single piece for both the forward and reverse, with a fixed angle between them.  Trying to understand why all three aren't the same.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on December 21, 2016, 09:18:18 PM
Middle one has to be split so you can get it on the crankshaft.

Good to see you making some swarf again Jo.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on December 21, 2016, 07:27:51 PM
Thanks guys  :)

The plans I have show the eccentrics as a single piece for both the forward and reverse, with a fixed angle between them.  Trying to understand why all three aren't the same.

The LP and IP eccentrics have the same angle between them = 150 degrees, the HP is 120 degrees. The IP eccentric has to be split to get it on the crankshaft, this is tricky as you have to split the eccentric and put the two joining screws in the right sort of place so that they survive turning the two lobes. I did a practise one first  :disappointed:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: vcutajar on December 21, 2016, 10:41:01 PM
Good to see you back at the orphans.  Missed them.

Vince
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: kvom on December 22, 2016, 12:54:36 AM
That explains part#27.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Dave Otto on December 22, 2016, 03:08:43 AM
Hi Jo

Good to see you working on the triples again; you need to get them finished up so you can play with your Christmas presents.  :lolb:
Like I should talk :-[


Dave
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on December 22, 2016, 09:08:01 AM
Christmas presents   :naughty: I wonder what they could be  :noidea:

Dave your Pacific Vapor Engine casting set has been good value for money  :ThumbsUp: just look at how many years worth of fun and enjoyment they have given you   ;)

Jo

Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Dave Otto on December 22, 2016, 06:23:57 PM
Yes it has; and I have enjoyed every minute of it. Although I am looking forward to working on something else.

Dave
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on December 22, 2016, 06:59:14 PM
That's funny Dave , that's what I said after my divorce  :lolb: :lolb: :lolb:

Cletus
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: kvom on December 22, 2016, 07:11:40 PM
Getting back to the eccentrics, they have a rib on the center, and the straps have a matching groove.  Wondering how you machined the groove and how close a fit is needed?

The eccentrics themselves look easier to make from barstock than from the castings.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on December 22, 2016, 09:29:24 PM
Getting back to the eccentrics, they have a rib on the center, and the straps have a matching groove.  Wondering how you machined the groove and how close a fit is needed?

The eccentrics themselves look easier to make from barstock than from the castings.

I started on the eccentrics on 17th feb this year and moved onto the straps in march, all the techniques and jigs are in this thread  ::)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: kvom on December 23, 2016, 05:17:59 PM
I have finally paged through this entire thread.  Some good ideas here that hadn't occurred to me, and as well I saw some parts that allowed me to correct errors in modeling from the drawings.  One thing I saw that doesn't appear on the drawings is a bearing between the conrods and piston rods.

Some conclusions I've drawn from both your work and the modeling exercise.

1) I'd better not attempt this engine unless I'm willing to dedicate it as a sole project for the better part of a year, given my normal work rate.

2) Other than the cylinders, base, and pump,  I'd likely be more successful building the parts from bar stock than castings.  Or at least they would be easier since I have CNC capability.

I have modeled a fair majority of the parts, but the base, pump, and cylinders will require me to remove them from their virgin plastic wrapping for measurements.  I'm somewhat hesitant to do so since if I do decide not to make the engine I'd like to pass the kit on to someone who will.

Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on December 23, 2016, 05:50:00 PM
The other thing as I was told by a friend is that while it took him 6 months to make the engine it took him another 6 months to fit the engine together and get it running. And I have three of them  :facepalm:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on January 31, 2017, 01:21:43 PM
 :( Still assembling. I was told by a friend that it took him 6 months to fit his to get it working and he only made one  :toilet_claw:

Latest joy is getting the slide bars to allow the piston rods to run freely: Initially they were too tight and a bit more had to be filed off the cover so they run nice and smooth..

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: kvom on January 31, 2017, 01:40:11 PM
I would have though you'd want to do that fitting with the covers bolted tight to the cylinders.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on January 31, 2017, 01:43:11 PM
We obviously have different ways of working, you seem to like to get all the machining done as fast as possible and are then left with the monotony of making studs, handwork and trying to get all the parts fitted.

I tend to do things as I go along so generally as the last part is machined it can be fitted and the engine can be run, also has the advantage that if a part needed teaking or was found to be a bit lacking in some respect then the next part made can take that into account if need be, leaving it all to the end can have a knock on effect eg by the time you have eased one part by removing metal it could leave the next part short.

Each to their own I suppose.

J

PS is there an echo? last two posts you have told us the same thing about your friend :ShakeHead:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on January 31, 2017, 01:44:40 PM
PS is there an echo? last two posts you have told us the same thing about your friend :ShakeHead:

It was necessary as no one bothered to read it the first time  :disappointed:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on January 31, 2017, 01:57:19 PM
Probably read it but did not comment unless you have been keeping a count of the number of views but then you would have seen that at least one person read it as that was me ;)
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Mike Bondarczuk on January 31, 2017, 03:02:49 PM
Jason,

Make that two.

Mike
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on January 31, 2017, 04:46:33 PM
I would have though you'd want to do that fitting with the covers bolted tight to the cylinders.

Difficult: The nuts/studs on the local cylinder get in the way and the other cylinder studs get in the way. It would be necessary to do it on a mill not using a file and that introduces another set of problems. Instead of a couple of seconds work with a hand file on the cover :noidea:


I look forward to seeing how you do it on yours ;).

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on January 31, 2017, 05:18:02 PM
Jo, will you have to add packing to the slide bar bracket?

I would of thought that if you have moved the bars closer to the cylinder centre line then to keep them parallel to the bore you will have to add a similar amount to the bracket.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on January 31, 2017, 05:50:21 PM
I do not know yet I am still assembling the engines. I left 0.2mm on the covers so that there was material to fit with. So far the machining measurements have proven to be correct.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: kvom on January 31, 2017, 05:53:19 PM
Quote
I look forward to seeing how you do it on yours ;).

Jo

I doubt it will happen for a long while, as beyond my level of skill and probably patience.  Certainly the Benson or another of similar level will come first.

Other than the two cylinder castings and the base, I'd likely be better off doing everything in bar stock anyway.  Now that I have 3D models of these, they could be printed.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Admiral_dk on January 31, 2017, 10:02:00 PM
I'm sure that we are more than a few following along - even if we don't post many comments ....
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 31, 2017, 10:22:43 PM
I'm right here. I try to follow Jo everywhere.
If I were in the UK there would be a restraining order on me.  :naughty:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: 10KPete on January 31, 2017, 10:56:31 PM
I'm sure that we are more than a few following along - even if we don't post many comments ....

Yep, you betcha!!

Pete
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: crueby on January 31, 2017, 11:11:30 PM
I'm right here. I try to follow Jo everywhere.
If I were in the UK there would be a restraining order on me.  :naughty:

Or you would have been run through the big mill by now...
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on February 01, 2017, 09:48:00 AM
I'm right here. I try to follow Jo everywhere.
If I were in the UK there would be a restraining order on me.  :naughty:

Its nice to have a follower who appreciates me :-*

Jo

P.S. and who is not frightened of joining me for dinner curry  :embarassed:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: steamer on February 01, 2017, 10:44:45 AM
Oh you know I'm watching......get on with it!....    8)
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Ian S C on February 01, 2017, 12:45:25 PM
I,m watching.
Ian S C
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Bluechip on February 01, 2017, 01:55:02 PM
Yeah, we are watchin' ...  :ThumbsUp:

In fact, some of us are verging on the agoggin'.  :popcorn:  &   :DrinkPint:  to hand.

Dave
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on February 05, 2017, 03:43:24 PM
 >:( Don't trust Stuarts sizes on their parts list: The bolts on the eccentric arms are clearly shown as being 3/8" long. So I made them that long  >:( >:(  as you can see that is not right  :ShakeHead: and there is not even enough space for a standard 7BA nut between the expansion link and the two side arms  :disappointed:

Measuring things the space between the two arms is only 9.6mm and the ends of the rods are 6.3mm wide. Which means I have 1.65mm gap on either side of the ends of the arm.  That means I have to make all 27 bolts again  :( and cut down some nuts.

Nuts are never easy to get hold of. I find screwing them on to a spare screw provides an easy way to handle them. First leaving the nuts sticking 0.5mm out of the collet to face and file the taper. Then turning them round to cut down to 1.5mm thick.

Two reversing gear sets down, 7 more on these engines. I might check a few more of my orphaned casting sets to see if Stuart tried the same trick on their reversing sets  ::)

 :thinking: The eccentric bolts may need undersized nuts to make them look right. Will these engines ever end  :-\

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on February 05, 2017, 04:13:24 PM
I suspect the parts list shows the standard bolt that has to be modified to suit as they don't do 5/16" long ones

Do you really have to make them all again? Why not a simple split bush so you can hold them by the shank to reduce the length of thread, then hold by shank to skim down the head thickness.

I find an easier way to adjust my nuts is to have a bit of bar with suitable thread on the end, hold this in the collet, screw on a nut so it stops against the collet and then face off. This way the collets front face acts as your back stop so you can just face off a whole batch at one setting. Quick and simple. Your way is fiddly to get them in the collet then you need to touch off the existing face, zero dro and then take your cut. No wonder these engines are taking you so long :mischief:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on February 05, 2017, 05:02:19 PM
Jo are you sure about that 9.6mm dimension

The bosses on the arms are 1/4" long less the 1/16" thickness of the arms leaves 3/16". Expansion link is 1/8" thick and sits between the two .

3/16 + 1/8 + 3/16 should give you 1/2" (12.7mm)between arms not 3/8" (9.6mm)

I which case stock 3/8 long bolts would have fitted with standard thickness heads and nuts.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on February 05, 2017, 05:37:41 PM
Yes I measured it, and it looks like your drawings are different from my ones, as you can just about make out from the photo it shows the two bosses at 4mm and 4.76mm thick. If they were thicker then the bolts that go through the two ends would also need to be longer and the list shows them at 16mm long.

I will stick to holding my nuts in a collet to cut off .7mm rather than risk machining it whilst being held by 3 threads on a thread that is itself only 0.2mm tall. A decent chuck could also hold the nut for facing but not an ER collet  :disappointed:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on February 05, 2017, 05:58:25 PM
Thats interesting considering where my drawings came from.

You should not rip your nuts off doing it my way. Those locknuts on that conrod I sent you a pic of are M2.5 and screwed onto a M2.5 thread for machining cut onto 3/32" rod so probably less than 0.2mm engagement
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: steamer on February 05, 2017, 06:01:01 PM
A filing rest is an easy way to make nuts from bar stock...it really is pretty fast if you're set up right....

Dave

Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on February 05, 2017, 06:11:21 PM
Thanks Dave  ;)

I have several lengths of 7BA Hex, that could be used to make some but it was a bit of a waste as the parting off material is greater than the nut thickness. What I am using up is some old 7BA nuts that have surface rust on their faces.

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Roger B on February 05, 2017, 06:16:16 PM
I'm still watching along in the background, but can't offer much other than  :wine1:  :wine1:  :wine1:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: scc on February 05, 2017, 08:57:50 PM
Me too, :popcorn:

Regards,             Terry
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: stvy on February 06, 2017, 10:43:11 AM
Jo,

I can't quite see it clearly or not but Are you using hexagon 5c collets to hold those ba nuts? If so where did you source them. The only source I've found is hardinge for 0ba thru 8 ba and that's too expensive for me at this time. Your collet looks to not be a hardinge. I would also like to source down to smaller sizes if possible.

Thanks,
Steve

Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: steamer on February 06, 2017, 11:29:50 AM
stvy

They're out there....

http://www.dunhamtool.com/5c_collet.html

Dave
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on February 06, 2017, 11:46:53 AM
Hi Steve,

I am using a 3/16" collet there, which is very tight on 3/16 hex but has just enough play in it to be able to hold the 7BA hex . I was lucky enough to get some other standard BA sized Hex collets ;D

I think Arc do hex collets in the UK. By mixing metric hex with imperilous ones you can get close to most sizes you need.

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: rhankey on February 06, 2017, 01:55:39 PM
Stuart definitely did revise some of the dimensions with the crosslinks/reversing links.  Older plans did result in clearance issues for bolt heads and nuts.  Newer plans solve those problems, but they forgot to revise the length of the 6 crosslink bolts they provide, which are now too short.  So, I had to make 6 longer bolts.  This was the only area I found Stuart had any errors in their Triple drawings.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on February 06, 2017, 03:42:24 PM
Thanks Robin.

I did look at my later drawings and they are like those that JB showed. But my original drawing, which were converted to modern measurements years ago, showed the smaller size and that was the same as the measurements on Lucky's parts so I had no reason to question them....

I noticed one person put brass/bronze spaces on their links to  provide a bit of extra space for the screws & nuts. I did think about doing it that way but I'll try the shorter bolts/thin nuts first as they look more in scale  :)

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on March 04, 2019, 03:49:33 PM
Despite offering new castings/engines to be picked up on Wednesday negotiations for another set of castings have failed  :( so I am back on the orphans. Today is status review day.


The parts all seem to be there  :)

There is plenty to keep me busy with this lot until at least Thursday when I will try negotiating for some more castings, in the meantime I wonder if the paint has dried on the Bell crank engine  :paranoia:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on March 06, 2019, 05:04:07 PM
Further casting negotiation have failed  :disappointed: Surus does not accept that his latest casting set is a "full set of castings" he wants to know where the rest is and even providing him a sample cylinder head to show the missing bits it can be made of bar stock did not work  :ShakeHead: so I will have to continue with the Triple Orphans and the Bell Crank engine  :-\

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: cnr6400 on March 06, 2019, 06:47:26 PM
What engines are you working on here? Today's post shows what appears to be a multiple cylinder engine (maybe IC) where the 4 Dec post seems to be a triple expansion steam engine. Maybe long-time list members know the code about the people you mention but short timers like me have no idea what these posts are all about. :shrug:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on March 06, 2019, 07:14:35 PM
I am building my three Stuart Triples on this thread.

The latest pics are a casting set I acquired today and was hoping to exchange for another set of engine castings out of "the collection" (which is held by Surus   :pinkelephant: ) rather than having to work on the Triples which failed  :( so I am back working on the Triples again  :toilet_claw:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: b.lindsey on March 07, 2019, 11:43:31 PM
 I can understand surus' dilemma, looks like a nice set of manifold castings, but what for ??

Bill
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on March 08, 2019, 06:59:39 AM
While Surus is sat infront of the laptop it would be a good idea to encourage him to start a new thread of his own exclusively about his ongoing casting collection rather rather than have him spread the castings over several threads which just confuses the casual observer.

Bill look in the bell crank thread for more clues
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on March 08, 2019, 07:59:31 AM
Bill it is a Bentley BR2 set, with a couple of spare elbows  :)

While Surus is sat infront of the laptop it would be a good idea to encourage him to start a new thread of his own exclusively about his ongoing casting collection rather rather than have him spread the castings over several threads which just confuses the casual observer.

It would be a long and slow process as he carefully checks each casting set as they came out/are returned, only one is allowed out at a time  ::) and he is not very proficient with a keyboard. He also sees letting people know what he has in his collection might be a security risk as it may result in an offer for one that I can't refuse or that I might think I can take them out to the workshop... Thursday night is ok as he knows I have a workshop ban in place until the morning which gives him time to put them away again  :-\

Think of the pics of the latest acquisitions of castings in my build threads as photos of my day out/excuses for delayed process in the engine builds. Those posts seems to get more reaction from the members reading these threads than the actual engine builds progress which are getting boring :disappointed:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on August 02, 2019, 12:43:16 PM
Joy of joys I really need to get on with these  :-\  Over the last little long while I have been putting the assembly off post painting  :ShakeHead: As normal the paint is too thick and it needs to be scraped off to let the bits go back together, its painful  :disappointed: Finally we have three Orphans whose bottom ends can go round and round  :) So now we can start thinking about fitting their top ends to the bottom ends.

The first feature to be found was that the HP piston rod hits the bottom of the cylinder cover  :facepalm: This could be that something somewhere is too long or that the drawing should have shown a recess on the bottom of the cover for the rod - I will probably go with the recess.

The more interesting feature is trying to get the cross heads to run smoothly. At the moment the HP runs true, the IP and LP are slightly off. This is not just a case of spacing the guide bars over as we also have to take into account the two guides which are threaded onto the top of the air pump and the water pump  :thinking:


Maybe those studs were more interesting to do after all  :paranoia:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on August 02, 2019, 01:26:23 PM
Jo, for future engiens you may want to mask off any mating surfaces as it is far easier to peel off a bit of tape than scratch away paint though don't leave masking tape on for long periods of time as it then becomes hard to remove the glue.

The drawings that I have show a recess in all the cylinder covers.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Florian Eberhard on August 02, 2019, 02:03:29 PM
... don't leave masking tape on for long periods of time as it then becomes hard to remove the glue.

There is special masking tape which doesn't get hard to remove (within 1-2 moths or so) . It's a bit more expensive but if you need to cover something for longer than the curing time of your paint, its definitely worth it.
The one I know is called "UV resistant masking tape" (from Tesa) and it is blue: https://www.tesa.com/en/craftsmen/tesa-professional-4435.html

Florian
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Chipswitheverything on August 02, 2019, 02:40:48 PM
That's a hugely impressive" engine works" photo of the triples on your bench, Jo, a machinery addict's dream  ( maybe nightmare ! )
 I will note for the future, ( re. my set of castings ),  your conclusion as to whether you have found any discrepancies in the Stuart drawing that has led to the piston and crosshead nuisances. ( But does this perhaps just relate to your orphans having necessarily included, to some extent, the workmanship of other and less capable hands?  )   Dave
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Craig DeShong on August 22, 2019, 12:36:02 AM
While Surus is sat infront of the laptop it would be a good idea to encourage him to start a new thread of his own exclusively about his ongoing casting collection rather rather than have him spread the castings over several threads which just confuses the casual observer.

Bill look in the bell crank thread for more clues

GASP :o you actually allow Sirius to use your computer?  I sincerely hope you guard your credit cards carefully, or else you might find that Sirius has a whole host of castings stashed away of which you are totally unaware!  :lolb:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on August 22, 2019, 07:09:12 AM
GASP :o you actually allow Sirius to use your computer?  I sincerely hope you guard your credit cards carefully, or else you might find that Sirius has a whole host of castings stashed away of which you are totally unaware!  :lolb:

I thought it was safe and would keep him occupied but then he found Fleabay and that anything he bid on he could charge to my cards  :facepalm: He managed to win one set before I learnt to lock down my computer when I leave it  ::)


 :thinking: I must finish these off they are taking up a lot of space.

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on September 29, 2019, 05:08:23 PM
I've been getting complaints that I have not finished these engines. Over the last couple of days I have been doing a bit more assembling. I discovered that what I thought was a bag of Stuart 7BA studs for the Steam chests is actually a random bag of studs so I have even more studs to play with in my future  :(

Piecing the engine together shows up any miss alignments as each slight difference adds up over the engine, especially trying to get the cross heads which also drive the air pump and water pump to line up with the threads in the crosshead castings. The cross head castings are tight on the nuts so I had to make a special box spanner for them. Of course having found a fault there is a lot of dismantling required to extract the part for repair. In the case of lucky one of the screw holes for the slide bar did not line up  :ShakeHead: So that required the Casting to be removed, the hole plugged and silver soldered and another hole drilled.

Lucky and Duo are now going round and round and up and down leaving Numero Uno. Which has the bottom of its slide bar too close at the top so to avoid a total strip down the bottom cover was slid out and the top filed down by the required 0.25mm.

Next job is to gain 1.5mm at the bottom on that dreaded casting but moving the bottom of the bar over is going to move the threaded hole that is to drive the pump over  :toilet_claw:

Actually I am enjoying this assembling and its challenges :headscratch:

Jo




Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on September 29, 2019, 05:38:23 PM
Every little bit is one step closer :)

Looks like when you redrill that hole it should fall more central to the casting.

Isn't it about time he let you have another casting set now that the Chuk is running :stickpoke:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on September 29, 2019, 06:40:31 PM
Isn't it about time he let you have another casting set now that the Chuk is running :stickpoke:

We are still waiting  :-\

My normal supplier promised that he was going to sort out his casting collection and provide me with a list of the ones he is unlikely to do but nothing has arrived  :disappointed:

We recently lost another casting collector (i.e. they buy castings but do not convert them into engines  ) and Surus is waiting for the list of casting sets that are to become available  :pinkelephant:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on September 30, 2019, 04:52:22 PM
 :facepalm: What I thought was an offset was actually a lower cylinder cover not being fully true to the cylinder bottom. One more slide bar mounting screw needed its mounting thread moving to get everything moving smoothly. All three engines are now going up and down and round and round, so the crossheads are all aligned  :ThumbsUp:

I am not sure about the threads in the two pump arms. I can get one in place but it is causing a bit of drag on the crosshead. I wonder if it really should have nuts top and bottom and a clear hole through the arm  :noidea:

Jo

P.S. Latest on the castings: The first supplier has decided to only let go his Locomotive castings  :wallbang:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on September 30, 2019, 05:03:48 PM
Clearance hole would give a bit more wiggle room, just have to make sure the faces the nuts bear on are at right angles to the rod so there is no twist when tightened. Even then if it were a bit off a quick lick with a file will be easy to do.

I'll pass on the loco castings ;)
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Roger B on September 30, 2019, 06:50:35 PM
Still following these builds  :wine1: Do you have a big enough air compressor (or boiler) to run all three together  :stir: A tripple tripple would be something to see  :)  :)  :)
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: doubletop on September 30, 2019, 08:05:05 PM
Jo

I'm still following along. I'll expect an update at the AGM on the 17th, that is if it is on this year and you aren't out in the car park adding to Surus's collection?

Pete
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on September 30, 2019, 08:35:25 PM
I think we may get first chance at the castings Pete as there may be a no show
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on September 30, 2019, 08:40:57 PM
I'll expect an update at the AGM on the 17th, that is if it is on this year and you aren't out in the car park adding to Surus's collection?

Sorry Pete, Its looking unlikely I will be able to make it as I injured myself earlier in the year and driving antagonises the problem  :toilet_claw: There are also no casting collections planned so I am currently tending towards following the consultants advice of trying to avoid making it worse.

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: doubletop on October 01, 2019, 05:23:29 AM

Sorry Pete, Its looking unlikely I will be able to make it as I injured myself earlier in the year and driving antagonises the problem  :toilet_claw: There are also no casting collections planned so I am currently tending towards following the consultants advice of trying to avoid making it worse.

Jo

Jo - Sorry to hear you have injured yourself hopefully not as a result of adding to your growing collection of castings. I guess you won't be sending Surus as a proxy so who is going to chair the AGM?

Jason - I'll leave any opportunity for castings with you. Excess bagage is more expensive than shipping these days. Hopefully I'll see you there?

Pete
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on October 07, 2019, 04:35:32 PM
There is lots to do on the cylinder sets :facepalm2: One of the things that need to be done is to clad the outside. A review of the come in handy pile found a number of bits of Aluminium of various thicknesses: I chose a bit of 0.8mm thick.

The height of the cladding is easy enough to measure on the cylinder but the length needs to be found along a wavy surface. To measure this I chose to stick on a piece of tape. on the first side this was 163mm long. It was interesting when the same piece of tape was checked on the other side as it proved to be short: this is caused by the curves on one side of the cylinder being different than the other. There is not a lot that can be done about this but at least I know about it and can cut the cladding to suit  :)

The great thing about thin Ali is that it can just about be cut using a knife blade to score the surface and then broken through stress bending, proving a nice straight edge, which can be cleaned up on wet and dry  ;) I have cut the 6 pieces ready for the cladding but next I will need to reduce the cylinder casting width by 0.8mm on either side so that the cladding ends level with the steam chest.

While I am machining the cylinder again it is probably a good time to look at drilling and tapping for the other holes that are needed on the sides of the cylinder. The trickiest of these will be for the steam pipes and I will need to make the pipes before I drill and tap for them. It is yet another part of these engines where you have to make another part before you can finish the bit you first started on  :paranoia:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on October 07, 2019, 04:47:36 PM
Will you be fitting any form of lagging into the recesses before the cladding just in case the engines should ever get used with steam?

I tend to leave the sheet a little oversize and start fitting from the middle then once it is all screwed down the aluminium is easy to file off flush with the ends. Satin black spray paint gives the look of blued steel if you are not going with the main engine colour as I know you like that duck egg blue ;)
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on October 08, 2019, 07:33:59 AM
I normally fit something behind the cladding, if nothing else to support the cladding.

The sheets have been left 2mm over length for trimming after fitting. They will be fitted around the LP cylinder first, I am considering anodising ... but we are getting a little ahead of ourselves I wouldn't want to spoil the story build thread by telling you what comes next  :hellno:

As a woman I reserve my right to change my mind  ::)

Jo

Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on October 08, 2019, 11:40:05 AM
May be easier to just let the moths out and get the anodised stuff from Stuarts :)
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on October 08, 2019, 12:37:51 PM
Their postage is rather high  :-\

Jo

P.S. so is the piece of Ali for the cladding and I need three of them  ::)
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Chipswitheverything on October 08, 2019, 02:16:22 PM
Pleased to see the various recent pictures of the impressive triples, the cladding will really bring them on visually.   But I'm mildly disappointed that you have not dug out from behind a bench a treasured piece of pre Revolutionary  "Russian Iron"  to slice up for the cleading …      Dave
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on October 08, 2019, 04:19:48 PM
The problem with Russian iron is that it is not very thick so all that Jo may have had is now red oxide powder as once the two special coatings meet in the middle there is not much left :LittleDevil:
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on October 10, 2019, 03:47:51 PM
The steam transfer pipes need to be accurately and repeatably bent. The answer to achieve this is to make a suitable bender and some guides.
Having made the bender my first experiment flattened the pipe  :facepalm: For the second attempt I annealed the copper pipe first and it came out a lot better. Now all I have to do is get the spacing between the holes right and I should be able to bend up the pipes  :)


But that will be another day as someone has found a box of model engine castings and some casting fondling lubricant  :wine1: 

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Bluechip on October 10, 2019, 05:03:04 PM


But that will be another day as someone has found a box of model engine castings and some casting fondling lubricant  :wine1: 

Jo

My oh my ... Thirsty Thursday soon comes around doesn't it ...   :lolb:  Had mine last night. Just a can of lager tonight ...  :DrinkPint:

Nice bit of tubing bending  :ThumbsUp:

Dave
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on October 11, 2019, 12:38:51 PM
Having got my calculations right for the centres of the two bending pullies it was a case of cutting three bits of thick wall copper tube to 65mm long and to bend them tight round the jig. And tight is the word: the pipe had to be prised off of the two bending pullies. The ends needed a little tap with a hammer to bring them back circular.

Three pipes have been bent up and the first fitted to Numero Uno  :) .

The bending jig has had the second pulley moved out and the pipes have been annealed so it is time to start bending up the second transfer pipe  :paranoia: .

Edit: and the other set proved to be just as quick and easy with the bender  :cartwheel:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Mike Bondarczuk on October 11, 2019, 01:50:43 PM
Lovely work with that bender Jo and the pipes look great.

Mike
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Admiral_dk on October 11, 2019, 06:41:15 PM
Great result Jo and it shows that the right tools do work wonders  :ThumbsUp:  even if you had to make the tool yourself.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on October 13, 2019, 03:57:24 PM
Thanks Mike and Per  :)

More progress, more slow progress today, lots of calculations for the measurements needed before I could start :-\ The cylinder was mounted up in the small milling vice, which hand to be packed out as the studs are already fitted and levelling up the cylinder had to be done with a square off the port surface.

I have milled the two ends down by the thickness of the cladding so that the cladding will come level with the steam chests. Milled the surfaces for the intermediate pipes so that all the heights match the pipe offsets. Then starting from the HP end drilled and tapped for the studs for the pipe flanges. Making sure that the pipes and their flanges fitted on the way. The pipes still need soldering together - I might use the cylinder as a jig for that :noidea:

Before taking the cylinder out of the small vice I took the opportunity to drill and tap for the blow downs, only to find that my 5/32 by 32 plug tap had been hand ground  from a first or second and it had not been ground evenly  :facepalm: This is where it comes in handy having an old cutter grinder hiding in the corner as by holding the tap in a collet you can evenly grind it round and finish off with a diamond file to sharpen the edges of the teeth.

I can report that the first side of the first engine has been fully drilled, tapped and milled there is still likely to be a bit of shaping required to get the cladding to fit but enough excitement for today. I get the feeling these are going to take all week  :toilet_claw:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jasonb on October 13, 2019, 04:09:44 PM
They are coming together, think the cylinder may draw too much heat from the work to get a good silver solder joint. If you made a note of the DRO settings when drilling it should be easy to knock up a jig.
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on October 15, 2019, 06:23:16 PM
Having milled the other side of the two port faces to width it was then necessary to work on the outside profile. My aim is to get the outside so that it looks to be even either side of the cylinder covers.

The other challenge is the mounting lugs which thankfully are over sized so by using a filing guide each of the lugs can be taken down so that they look even

I might be at a stage when I can start the cladding for the first engine  :thinking:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: scc on October 15, 2019, 09:12:36 PM
Looking good Jo.. :popcorn:   Regards   Terry
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Roger B on October 16, 2019, 06:34:18 PM
That's some nice pipework  :praise2: I found I had to reanneal the pipes mid bend for the exhaust on my two cylinder engine. I used I squeeze in the vice rather than a tap with a hammer to get them back to round.  :wine1:

Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on October 17, 2019, 05:27:50 PM
Thanks Terry and Roger  :)

Before putting the covers on I needed to put the central valve in place, this means taking apart the two halves of the cylinder block. As expected there was swarf in the steam chest. I also had a poke into the ports to find they were full of casting sand. This was cleaned out using a high pressure air line - something I don't like doing as the muck goes everywhere  :ShakeHead:

Putting the cylinder back together needs the top surface to be smooth so the screws were tightened up while the cylinder was kept in place with a clamp.

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: Jo on October 17, 2019, 05:37:18 PM
Finally I could start work on the cladding:

A pattern was made using postits and I decided to start with the relatively easier one the one with only one flange to mount round.

I hand cut the gland hole and finished with a file. I also got out the Hagner to see if I could get that to cut slowly and in a straight line  :paranoia: In the past I have found that it has a habit of grabbing hold of a bit of Ali and rattling it around. This time I tried cutting it on top of a piece of brown stuff and found it made a world of difference  :ThumbsUp:

Working out from the flange each of the clearances for the mounting lugs were cut then the cladding was clamped into place so that the positions of the bends could be found and then bent.

I have been investigating what type of screws I had that I could use to mount the cladding and I have not got any 8BA domed head screws  :facepalm: so I am going to have to consider alternatives  :noidea:

One piece of cladding down, 5 to go  :lolb:  :toilet_claw:

Jo
Title: Re: Triple Orphans
Post by: bent on October 17, 2019, 11:33:37 PM
So you're using CAD?  Y'know - Cardboard Assisted Design?

 :D
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