Model Engine Maker

Engines => Your Own Design => Topic started by: crueby on March 12, 2021, 05:42:43 PM

Title: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 12, 2021, 05:42:43 PM
Hi again, time for me to start my next big build, which will be a 1:32 model of the triple compound water pumping engine built by Holly Manufacturing for the Ward Pumping Station in Bufallo NY. The building was set up to hold a row of eight of these monster pumping engines, but they only put in five of them. All five of the engines and the building are still there, and they (in non-covid years) hold a public tour once a year. The boiler building out back, that held rows of huge boilers, collapsed in a blizzard years ago (when the steam pumps were no longer used).

Here is a picture taken from one end of the row - you can just see the pipework for the other four engines behind it.

(https://i.postimg.cc/jdWDDZKg/DSC-7633.jpg)
All very standard looking big engine, till you look at the sides and see how small the people are! Those are real streetlights on the walkway to light up the building at night, during the day the glass roof lets in a lot of light. At the bottom are the pumps, one under each cylinder - inlet is on the left bottom, outlet pipes come out the side at the top of the chambers. There are 6 valve chambers in all, three either side. There is a giant plunger ram that comes down from the crosshead up above. There are two huge flywheels between the cylinders. On the opposite side, there is a geared shaft driving the eccentrics to corliss valves on the HP and IP cylinders, and poppet valves on the LP cylinder. Close view of the valves on the HP cylinder:
(https://i.postimg.cc/G3gB3Z0T/DSC-7543.jpg)


This link goes to their web page with some more details on the engines:  https://www.buffalohistorygazette.net/2010/09/holly-steam-engines-at-col-francis-g.html
Several decades ago the steam pumps were retired, but they are still complete. In one of the bays at the end of the building left open for more engines if needed, they installed these electric pumps - tiny by comparison, that do the same work of supplying water to the city. They dont even come up to the walkway around the room!

(https://i.postimg.cc/sxL1nZP4/DSC-7535.jpg)

Several years ago I took the tour, lots of photos, and afterwards contacted the man that organized the tours, asking if anyone had ever measured the machines and created plans, and saying that I wanted to build a working model of an engine from there - kind of side hoping no one had so I could get permission to get in there and climb all over them with a tape measure!

It turns out that he had, several years before, found the actual original builders blueprints sitting on a shelf in a corner of the building! Hundreds of pages of the original plans for the engine and buildings - quite an amazing find! Even more amazing was that he very kindly sent me a copy of the PDF file he had made with scans of every page. What a gift!

Over the last couple of years, as a side project, I've been working on a 3D CAD model in Fusion 360, it is now nearly complete, just missing the final shafts to the valves and the cladding around the cylinders:
(https://i.postimg.cc/nhBMkrXq/Holly-Pumping-Engine-Complete-v2.jpg)
After a bunch of calculations, I settled on a size of 1:32 scale for the model, which is big enough to keep the fasteners up in the 1-72 and 2-56 range, and small enough to be moveable without a crane - the base plate will be 10" x 18". Still, its going to be a heavy beast. I'm hoping to be able to make at least one of the pump chambers with an open side to show the check valve stacks inside. The cylinders are in the 1", 2", and 3" range, and the flywheels are 7" diameter.
For this model, I am hoping to take the detail level up a notch or two, and get as much detail in as possible on all the fittings and platforms. There are four levels of floors and stairs, railings, ladders, etc so it will be more of a diorama piece. This will NOT be a short build!
Started to assemble the materials for the base and frames, also found some bronze flywheels at Martin Models that I can turn to fit. For the two larger cylinders, I found some automotive cast iron cylinder liners with 1/8" walls that I will use for the core of the cylinders, with stacks of plates around them - mainly since the large bores would be tough to do on my little Sherline lathe, and this will save a LOT of work boring out from solid. Here is the pile of materials so far:
(https://i.postimg.cc/5yKpnpkK/IMG-9068.jpg)
I will be using brass for the base plates and main frames, since I love working with the stuff. I can hear some of you now, clamoring over the cost of brass. I'll wait till you finish...

Okay?

 :naughty:

So, yes the larger bar is pricey in brass, but given the amount of shaping to be done in it, and how much I like working it, I dont care! The 4" x 1/2" stock is the expensive part, but even that was bought on 25% off sale, and the 1/2" square bar for the frame rails was actually pretty cheap, only about $50. Shopping around and buying drops from the suppliers can save a lot. The base plate for the 'floor' is 1/4" aluminum, and will be sanded/painted to look like concrete and screwed to a wood base with short legs to get fingers under for lifting.


The only cutting done so far has been to saw the lengths of cylinder liner down to size (they came as 8" long - so I have enough for a few more large bore engines. Or an elf canon. ) and to saw the 4"x1/2" stock to lengths - they are in the oven getting stress relieved since they will have sections removed from the bottom and top faces and I dont want them to warp. The first work will be to make the base, and some drill guides for the base plates.

Should be a fun build!
 :cheers: Chris

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dan Rowe on March 12, 2021, 06:28:23 PM
Wow I will be watching this  :cartwheel: :cartwheel: :cartwheel: It is just like a big ship engine and that is my favorite type of steam engine.  :whoohoo: :whoohoo:

Cheers Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 12, 2021, 06:41:19 PM
That's going to be an awesome model.

You say it won't be a short build. What? Like 3 months? 4 maybe?

Are your elves unionized?

(That's been the only upside of this pandemic. Haven't seen your pests around here for a while. Course...there's been nothing to see either.)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Craig DeShong on March 12, 2021, 06:44:09 PM
What an awesome undertaking, lots of opportunity to make a stunning model.  I’ll be following!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on March 12, 2021, 07:23:29 PM
Great to hear about the new build Chris! I've just ordered 550 pounds of popcorn kernels to get ready for the festivities to start!   :cheers:

 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 12, 2021, 07:34:49 PM
That's going to be an awesome model.

You say it won't be a short build. What? Like 3 months? 4 maybe?

Are your elves unionized?

(That's been the only upside of this pandemic. Haven't seen your pests around here for a while. Course...there's been nothing to see either.)


3 weeks? ...   Um, no! 


You just didn't notice the elves, they look like Fritos bags in thier hazmat suits!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on March 12, 2021, 07:38:12 PM
Just a thought - During the design stage, did you include any tubing conduit to carry low voltage power vertically through the engine to the undersides of the platforms? This would enable you to have a few LED's under each platform so the detail can be seen more easily, as well as making assembly / troubleshooting easier without exterior lights. No unsightly loose plastic coated wiring if run in conduit. Much easier to find the elves' abandoned pizza crusts and beer bottles too.......

Only mentioning it as a thought before the build starts in earnest, as I have seen some model engines of pumping station engines and ships' engines that were mighty dark below the platforms.

If you know any home heating techs or plumbers who service gas fired furnaces or water heaters or boilers,  ask them to save any burned out thermocouples they come across for you. These have a 12" to 36" piece of good quality copper thinwall tube from the hot end to the gas valve end. Excellent for lube lines. (And maybe pumping station conduit   :naughty:). Price is right too - these are usually scrapped, so you can often get them free from a trades person.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 12, 2021, 09:05:44 PM
CNR, the original has no lights on the platforms, just the lights on the building walkways, so I hadn't considered it. Good idea though, with tiny leds it would look cool. Really only need a single conductor wire, it could ground through the frame. Wire wrap wire inside hypo tubing is a possibility too. Hmmm...


Thanks!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: ddmckee54 on March 12, 2021, 09:31:20 PM
Chris:

Since it's the remainder of the cylinder liner, the ratio of its' diameter of bore to the length of the bore would probably be too small to qualify as an elf-cannon.  Maybe an elf-howitzer but I think there are other qualifications it would also have to meet for that.  Most likely it would be an elf-mortar.  (It's short and stubby dontchaknow)

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 12, 2021, 09:49:29 PM
Chris:

Since it's the remainder of the cylinder liner, the ratio of its' diameter of bore to the length of the bore would probably be too small to qualify as an elf-cannon.  Maybe an elf-howitzer but I think there are other qualifications it would also have to meet for that.  Most likely it would be an elf-mortar.  (It's short and stubby dontchaknow)

Don
I stand corrected. And the elves stand quivering!   :lolb:   Hmmm, I do have some black powder for the flintlocks.... Here, elfy elfy!   :LittleDevil:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: scc on March 12, 2021, 10:21:41 PM
 :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :DrinkPint:         Terry
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on March 12, 2021, 10:33:19 PM
Sounds like a great party, Chris.  I'll be following along too!  :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Flyboy Jim on March 12, 2021, 10:56:51 PM
Another great build to follow along on.  :whoohoo:

Jim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Art K on March 12, 2021, 11:35:18 PM
Run away Elfy  run away fast, no leave the Elfsteiner! Sounds like an ambitious project but then again most of yours do.
Art
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 13, 2021, 12:01:14 AM
Thanks guys, I am looking forward to this one. With all the small details it needs, it will be a bit more like my ship building projects. It has all sorts of brackets, hangers, stairs, railings. Just spent some time in the wood shop making the wood parts to hold the base plate. Glue is drying, will sand and start varnishing the wood this weekend. As for time, I like long projects, the building is the really fun part for me.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Don1966 on March 13, 2021, 01:57:10 AM
Dog this is right down your ally and a great masterpiece of machinery to add to your awesome collection. I am differently following alone.....


 :popcornsmall:


 :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 13, 2021, 09:13:49 PM
I've gotten a bit done on the wood parts for the base, pics on that later. I'd be farther along, but the shop elves apparently went out and did some shopping at Guinness:

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 13, 2021, 11:46:02 PM
Today got started cutting metal for the Holly pump - well, sorta, started by making the drill guide for the pump housing bases. There are three bases, one for each pump set. Each base has a center housing that has the plunger and its chamber. Either side of that are pairs of check valve housings for the inlet and outlet. Each housing has what I call a beehive - a domed chamber with check valve sets all over it. Lots and lots and lots of check valves! Each of the 6 chambers has 7 inlet and 7 outlet check valve cages. Each cage has 15 check valves. So, 6 * 7 * 2 * 15 give 1260 check valves!! Am I going to make 1260 check valves? Nope! But, all the housings at least need to be made, and the pump bases hold them.

Here is what the bases look like:
(https://i.postimg.cc/2yZTPGfH/Pump-Base-Top-View.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/k4Zf1ZL6/Pump-Base-Bottom-View.jpg)

With all those holes to drill, and flanges to outline, the mill is going to be busy. However, the bases are too long (over 8.1" long) to swing all the way around on the rotary table to do the circles at the ends. This would make the layout and alignment really nasty and prone to error. So, the solution? A drill guide. Lay out and drill all the holes in a thin piece of steel bar stock, that can be bolted down to a few easy-to-lay-out holes in a line at either end of the stock. Then, use that to position and drill each hole. This will go lots quicker and lots more consistantly than individually aligning each plate, spotting each hole, and drilling it.
I started by sizing a piece of steel stock to the width of the bases, and long enough to reach all the holes at either end of the base. Then, used the edge finder to position at the back right corner, and zeroed the handwheels on the mill so I can use that corner as a reference for all the rest of the holes in the pattern. Engaged CNC mode (Count Number Cranks, that is) and started very carefully moving over and spotting/drilling each hole:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Vk1r9vS2/IMG-9069.jpg)
That took care of the rectangular patterns - then switched to holding it on the rotary table with the four-jaw chuck, and adjusted the chuck till I got the hole in the center of the circular pattern (which is NOT in the center of the plate) centered up on the rotary table, then offset and drilled the circular pattern:
(https://i.postimg.cc/GmQBXRGt/IMG-9070.jpg)
The holes are a couple different sizes, depending on the size of bolts they will be tapped for. Here is the finished drill guide, sitting on top of the blanks that the bases will be made from. The blanks still need to be milled to final length and width.

(https://i.postimg.cc/vmZ4jKtz/IMG-9071.jpg)
Then did some playing around, to figure out how to hold the blanks for shaping them to length/width. I have a larger mill vise, but it turns out it came up about 1/8" short on the jaw opening to hold the 4" wide blanks. So, I'll clamp them to the mill table, squaring them to the table with one edge of the blank hanging off the back of the mill table to cut the first edge square.

(https://i.postimg.cc/QMYFrq6r/IMG-9073.jpg)
I'll get one end trimmed on each base, then flip them around and take the other end in square and to finished length. The sides need to be taken in a little to finished width - the mill has JUST enough travel to do that with the blanks lengthwise on the table, with one edge hanging off the back of the table. Looks like a bunch of crank turning and making swarf coming up....
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dave Otto on March 14, 2021, 12:10:43 AM
Well I'm late to the parade but I will be following along, cool project!

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Jo on March 14, 2021, 10:50:09 AM
Triple Corliss build 8)

I'll be following along Chris  :DrinkPint:

Jo
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 14, 2021, 01:15:41 PM
Triple Corliss build 8)

I'll be following along Chris  :DrinkPint:

Jo
Glad to have you along!
Just realized I should clarify one thing that I had said on the valves - all three cylinders have the Corliss linkages, with the HP and IP cylinders having the rotary valves on inlet and exhaust. The LP cylinder uses the rotary inlet valves, but poppet exhaust valves. There is also a condensor on the exhaust pipe, down at the outlet of the water pumps - they used the flowing water from the pumps to cool the exhaust and form a partial vacuum there to aid the LP cylinder. It looks like that condensor was not original to the engine, but was added at some point later on.

At this scale, the dashpots for the valves will most likely have to be dummies, getting the trip linkages done this small would require some swiss watchmaker help - the engine itself is enormous, but the valves are not! Dont think I mentioned - the cylinders are 32", 64" and 96" diameter on the original, with an 8.6 foot stroke.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 14, 2021, 03:01:41 PM
This morning saw the base plates trimmed to length, and started in on taking the first side to width (need to take off just over 1/4" total)
(https://i.postimg.cc/cLnFJYFq/IMG-9074.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on March 14, 2021, 04:22:49 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Roger B on March 14, 2021, 05:18:13 PM
This looks to be another fine project to follow  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp:  :wine1:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 14, 2021, 05:55:20 PM
As mentioned yesterday, the wood base for the aluminum base plate has been made and clear coated. The wood is a wide frame under the ali, and notched to let the plate sit down lower. They will be screwed together, screws under the three frame base plates.
(https://i.postimg.cc/C1tD3rkW/IMG-9076.jpg)
Got the first of the frame bases milled to width - this picture shows how the drill guide matches the width, and can be lined up with the end of the base.

(https://i.postimg.cc/xCqMFVJv/IMG-9077.jpg)
The angled corner on the drill guide is just where the end of the bar stock was cut at an angle, that corner is not important.
So, on to milling the other base plates to width....
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on March 14, 2021, 07:17:13 PM
Most of the time people make the base last, but you made it first.  And it looks great!  :ThumbsUp:
It's great to see the first swarf for this new mega model, Chris! :popcorn: :popcorn:

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 14, 2021, 07:43:49 PM
Most of the time people make the base last, but you made it first.  And it looks great!  :ThumbsUp:
It's great to see the first swarf for this new mega model, Chris! :popcorn: :popcorn:

Kim
By the time the rest of the model is done, it will be a LOT harder to lift to fit the base! 
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on March 14, 2021, 09:18:16 PM
Hullo Chris.......you make mention of the possibility that the condenser as shown may have been an afterthought or rework?

I find my self keeping the need to remember :facepalm: this is a steam pump and not a steam engine, so for me the critical direction of flow appears to be the accumulator  :facepalm2:

To the best of my understanding, the pressure water spools [on either side of the engine] meet in a T spool..and the water enters the base of the water hammer anti-pulsation vertical accumulator then closeby enters the cooling flange ports of the steam condenser from the LP cylinder

I do not see any evidence of the condensate discharge pipework [back to boiler feed]

Is this correct?....or am I on the wrong track?...I have never seen such a water pump....in my geographic location [Eastern seaboard of NSW], our feed water is from rainwater dams up on a plateau so the natural head of water provides up to 100 PSI in our domestic systems down much closer to sea level

Derek

PS...the colour coding  :Director: [by convention] of pipework doesn't always work here [steam = light grey..ISO 5101, water = blue ISO 5104/5].....so to see the steam, I have made it red , & the water yellow

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 14, 2021, 09:44:41 PM
Hi Derek,
You are close - I would call this a steam pumping engine.   :shrug:    On top, it is a 3 cylinder engine with normal crankshaft/flywheel setup. Crankshaft is at the orange arrow, you can see one of the flywheels to the left. Underneath the engine, connected by shaftw from the crossheads, is a water pump. When I think of the term steam pump, I think of the boiler feedwater type without a crankshaft. That may just be my own understanding of the terms, or the terms are too non-specific!
Anyway, the red arrows you drew angling down from the top are the steam exhaust from the LP cylinder. The condenser is the drum with the yellow star on it - it has the pumped water under pressure filling the drum, and inside the drum is a set of coils full of steam, and the condensed steam water goes down through pipes near the purple arrow underneath the star. I dont think the actual condensed water pipe is visible in that photo - as I recall it comes out the far side away from the camera. Since they are right next to the lake, there is not much need to recycle the water back into the boilers, I don't know if they just dumped the condensate or sent it back - the boilers were in another building behind the one with the engines, so it would not be far to send it if they wanted to. There were dozens of boilers in that building - sadly that building is no longer there, sometime after they switched to the electric pumps there was one of the occasional major blizzards, and the roof of the boiler building collapsed under the snow load. Being next to Lake Erie, the west winds off the lake generate huge amounts of snow in storms, sometimes more than 10 feet of it in a day. All depends on when in the winter - by late winter the surface of the lake there, which is shallow, freezes over and reduces the lake effect. In north winds, the same thing happens off Lake Ontario (I live near the south side of Ontario, and am 60 miles east of Lake Erie, so we get snowstorms from both depending on which way the wind swings around).


Underneath each piston is a plunger in a housing hidden by all the other pipes and chambers in that photo (I think I have a picture of the pump works under construction, will dig that out). So, the water is drawn in through check valves in the lower half of the housings shown by the green arrows as the plunger goes up. As the plunger comes back down, those check valves close and another set in the top of those same chambers opens, letting the water flow through the pipes with the horizontal yellow arrow, towards the condenser. The upper chambers, shown by the blue arrows, are force chambers, partly full of water, with air at the top. There is a smaller horizontal pipe at the tip of the blue arrows - that comes from an air pump they could use to adjust the level of the water/air in the force chambers, to help with any water-hammering pressure waves. There is also the vertical force chamber you labeled with the vertical yellow arrows on the output - you can just see where the pipes from the far side of the pump array connects in, there are banks of the check valves down both sides of the engine. The far right yellow horizontal arrow, under the lamp posts, is the output pipe that leads to the city.
Hope that helps clear it up? There is another very similar pumping station in Cleveland, they give tours (I have not gotten there yet), and have a website with tons of diagrams:
https://cincinnatitriplesteam.org/steam_museums.htm
They have some documents and brochures on their site that have wonderful diagrams of it all.
Hope that helps, keep the questions coming!
Chris :cheers:

(https://i.postimg.cc/prTLsHsD/Water-Pump-Pipes.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 14, 2021, 09:50:35 PM
Derek, some more pictures of the engine, first from Bufallo, next two from Cleveland. Some of the bits in the Cleveland diagram, like the reheaters, are not on the Bufallo engines.

(https://i.postimg.cc/yYDFd47g/DSC-7492.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/ryn1MF22/Holly-Pumping-Engine-Parts-Photo-2.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/7YjSJsLB/Holly-Pumping-Engine-Animation-60.gif)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 14, 2021, 09:55:04 PM
Oh, and if you ever get the chance, there is a wonderful old double beam engine pump station up in Hamilton Canada. Great air museum up there too. The beam engine is the old Victorian style, very ornate. They run it with an electric motor for tours so you can see the mechanism in action.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on March 14, 2021, 10:41:25 PM
All very interesting work, with beautiful casting design and construction that we would, or could not readily build today

The appears a few inconstancies between the pipe work & components to the working model of the pump

We see  6 x B water pump chamber, each with its own air space above the water level........this level is able to be altered by a cross connection between each of the 6 chambers, so these air spaces each assist in minimising pulsation within the water discharge pressure

One reason for the air refill pipe work as such is that collapsing pressure fields of the check valves pulls air, so then is entrained ad this is progressively forced into the discharged pressurised water [as bubbles], so as needed or periodically, higher pressure air is forced into the 6 x airspaces to replace the lost cushion volume

However in the photograph, we also see a smaller singular vertical accumulator in the spooled T piece before the connection flange where the steam exhaust from the LP piston enters the condenser

So, from the photograph, it appears that the condenser is fed from the HP water spool  :toilet_claw:  with the condenser as shown in the model in an alternate location to the photograph  :shrug:

Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 15, 2021, 12:05:20 AM
Those diagrams were done by the folks in Cincinnati about thier pump, they are not of the Holly pump in Buffalo, so any goofs are thiers. The old construction pics are also not from the Holly pumps. Thier pump is similar in size and layout, but there are differences, especially around the condensor and the reheaters.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on March 15, 2021, 12:51:39 AM
Chris....they are all still absolutely magnificent pieces of engineering  :hammerbash:

Our current engineering Fraternity would have great difficulty in finding Trade qualified Pattern Makers who were able to, or had the knowledge of the myriad of dimensional allowance tables for shrinkage for all of the varying shapes, sizes, volumes and dimensions of components

All of the physical properties are well known in our Universities subjects like "Materials in Engineering", or "Engineerin Materials", however it is the unwritten knowledge gained from actual Foundry Apprenticeship's that are the missing element

As long as you build will not have all of bucket loads of check valves, all will be OK

Looking forward to the continuance  :cheers:   
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 15, 2021, 01:08:04 AM
Chris....they are all still absolutely magnificent pieces of engineering  :hammerbash:

Our current engineering Fraternity would have great difficulty in finding Trade qualified Pattern Makers who were able to, or had the knowledge of the myriad of dimensional allowance tables for shrinkage for all of the varying shapes, sizes, volumes and dimensions of components

All of the physical properties are well known in our Universities subjects like "Materials in Engineering", or "Engineerin Materials", however it is the unwritten knowledge gained from actual Foundry Apprenticeship's that are the missing element

As long as you build will not have all of bucket loads of check valves, all will be OK

Looking forward to the continuance  :cheers:
Yeah, stacking up a 60 foot tall pile of castings, and having them line up boggles my mind!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: MJM460 on March 15, 2021, 10:29:33 AM
Hi Chris, a great start to another great build.  I look forward to plenty of interesting reading to keep up with your build through the coming winter evenings. (Winter in this hemisphere, anyway.)

The valve design in the water cylinders is an interesting consequence of conservation of momentum, or Newton’s observation of a body continuing in a state of constant motion unless acted upon by........

The smaller valves gain much less momentum as they close, so are subject to a much smaller force when they hit the seat.  This force can easily destroy a larger valve.  Then multiple valves are used to achieve the required flow capacity.  But at 1/32 scale, the model valves are inherently much smaller, and subject to much lower force from the pressure, so will have much less momentum.  So unless you are really keen on some mass production of valves, I am sure that one valve in each chamber will do the job very reliably for you.

So many interesting details in a build of such a large machine.

MJM460

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Jo on March 15, 2021, 11:39:05 AM
Yeah, stacking up a 60 foot tall pile of castings, and having them line up boggles my mind!

Someone has just recovered from the idea of all those castings and now he wants to try experimenting to see if it is possible. The first problem is he is claiming is that he is short of castings   :facepalm:

Jo
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Admiral_dk on March 15, 2021, 12:12:44 PM
Thank you very much for the animated drawings Chris - helped to see / visualize the function :ThumbsUp:

Nice to see you back Jo - I had hoped that Surus would slow down on him bothering you  :cheers:

Per

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dan Rowe on March 15, 2021, 01:25:01 PM
Hi Chris, I knew about these engines and that they were for pumps but I never worked out where the pumps were. Thanks for the link to a bunch of pumping engines. I have been to the one at Hamiliton but now I have a bunch more to see.

Thinking about led's for lighting, there needs to be a current limiting resistor in series with the led which takes up space. Here is a small surface mount led with the resistor on the board. The holes will pass a 1.2mm or a 00-90 screw.
https://www.adafruit.com/product/1758

Cheers Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 15, 2021, 01:26:35 PM
Yeah, stacking up a 60 foot tall pile of castings, and having them line up boggles my mind!

Someone has just recovered from the idea of all those castings and now he wants to try experimenting to see if it is possible. The first problem is he is claiming is that he is short of castings   :facepalm:

Jo
Hmmm, how about a version of the wooden kids blocks shaped like engine parts... Sounds like a fun toy set!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 15, 2021, 01:34:12 PM
Hi Chris, a great start to another great build.  I look forward to plenty of interesting reading to keep up with your build through the coming winter evenings. (Winter in this hemisphere, anyway.)

The valve design in the water cylinders is an interesting consequence of conservation of momentum, or Newton’s observation of a body continuing in a state of constant motion unless acted upon by........

The smaller valves gain much less momentum as they close, so are subject to a much smaller force when they hit the seat.  This force can easily destroy a larger valve.  Then multiple valves are used to achieve the required flow capacity.  But at 1/32 scale, the model valves are inherently much smaller, and subject to much lower force from the pressure, so will have much less momentum.  So unless you are really keen on some mass production of valves, I am sure that one valve in each chamber will do the job very reliably for you.

So many interesting details in a build of such a large machine.

MJM460
Can you imagine the size of a single ball type check valve equivalent to all those smaller ones (even they are inches across). It would be like the boulder that chased Indiana Jones!   :hellno:   The valves they used look more like IC engine valves/seats, each with a seating spring.

I was thinking that I may make the chambers down one side with cutaway sides to show the valves, 3D printed, and have the chambers down the other side have simple ball check valves of 1/4" or 3/8" size for function.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 15, 2021, 01:40:17 PM
Hi Chris, I knew about these engines and that they were for pumps but I never worked out where the pumps were. Thanks for the link to a bunch of pumping engines. I have been to the one at Hamiliton but now I have a bunch more to see.

Thinking about led's for lighting, there needs to be a current limiting resistor in series with the led which takes up space. Here is a small surface mount led with the resistor on the board. The holes will pass a 1.2mm or a 00-90 screw.
https://www.adafruit.com/product/1758 (https://www.adafruit.com/product/1758)

Cheers Dan
Those guys have some great led setups - saved that link!
I also found these on Amazon, really small ones with the resistors to run off different voltages, and solid wires so they dont droop down from a ceiling on the model:
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B07P8TQHDC/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 15, 2021, 09:22:34 PM
More done on the base plates - clamped the drill guide to each end of each of the plates, and drilled the larger diameter holes, which are the registration holes for the uprights and the plates to the floor. These holes were then tapped.
(https://i.postimg.cc/GtmWzr1F/IMG-9078.jpg)
Next step is to drill all the smaller holes (2-56 tap size), which will hold the pump valve chambers and the corners of the uprights. For these, the drill guide was bolted down, and I am using the small Proxxon drill press since the drill needs to be 'pecked' going through, removing it frequently to help clear chips in these deep holes. The mill would work for this, but it takes a lot longer to crank it up/down than to just move the lever on the drill press. The little drill press has a good feel for this kind of work, and the drill guide self-aligns with the holes when starting as long as I dont hold the plate too hard till it gets started.

(https://i.postimg.cc/MH3hF4Wh/IMG-9082.jpg)
In the picture, the first side (on the right) has had all the holes drilled, and its ready to drill the set on the left. Once all three plates are drilled this way, I'll set up to do a similar pattern in the center of each plate for the main pump chamber. Then, LOTS of holes to tap! Going to be at this stage for a while.... (whenever these jobs come up, the shop elves always have excuses, doctor appointments, trade shows, elf conventions, whatever, so they can't help out! )
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: gary.a.ayres on March 16, 2021, 12:36:05 AM
Wow... the original is a veritable Leviathan!

Your CAD model is a work of art in itself, and no doubt your model will be even more so.

A fabulous project in skilled hands such as yours...

 :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 16, 2021, 12:59:06 AM
Wow... the original is a veritable Leviathan!

Your CAD model is a work of art in itself, and no doubt your model will be even more so.

A fabulous project in skilled hands such as yours...

 :popcorn:
Thanks Gary! I was hooked when I walked in the door of the pump station and looked up (and up) at the row of five of these beasts!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: gary.a.ayres on March 16, 2021, 08:51:45 AM
Reminds me of this beauty in the UK, which my daughter and I visited a couple of years ago:

http://www.kemptonsteam.org/

Our next one will be Crossness Pumping Station, as soon as things are safe again.

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on March 16, 2021, 03:41:29 PM
Hi Chris, another option re LED lights, that may make mounting and connecting LED's easier, are the battery powered strip LED lights as shown in my attached jpeg file. There are many firms offering these from China very cheap. The ones in the pic can be cut from the 1 metre strip into individual LED lights with their own resistor next to them, and wired in parallel to the supplied battery case. Wires can be connected by soldering to the bare copper tabs at the edge of each module. The strip has good quality self adhesive on the back to attach each light to a surface. For less than $10 USD delivered to your door you get a whole metre of light strip and a decent battery box. Just food for thought.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 16, 2021, 04:00:11 PM
Hi CNR,


I have led strip lights just like those, put them under my kitchen cabinets years ago to light the countertops better. They work great. The ones I have can be cut into groups of three, and don't need any extra resistors. Still have a coil of them, could definitely use them on the model. I've ordered a bag of the tiny individual ones too, be interesting to compare them. The individual tiny ones could be fit into little scale fixtures too. Plenty of time to experiment on this project!


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steam guy willy on March 16, 2021, 04:30:11 PM
Hi Chris , this is going to be an interesting build, and there is so much to think about all at once !!!  Do you have all the drawings for this or are you having to measure everything up yourself ??  will be watching avidly to pickup all the info and tips for when or iff i undertake a similar project.. More grease to your elbow as we say over here in Blighty !!!   :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: ddmckee54 on March 16, 2021, 04:41:56 PM
Chris:

Looks like you've got about a GAZILLION holes to tap, maybe two or three gazillion since there will be multiple levels to this beast.  With the elves all conveniently occupied elsewhere, doing important stuff I'm sure, can you power tap at that size?  Or are you going to be hand tapping holes 24/7 for the next couple of months/years? (My finger tips are getting sore just thinking about it.)

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: gary.a.ayres on March 16, 2021, 04:49:22 PM
Hi Chris, another option re LED lights, that may make mounting and connecting LED's easier, are the battery powered strip LED lights as shown in my attached jpeg file. There are many firms offering these from China very cheap. The ones in the pic can be cut from the 1 metre strip into individual LED lights with their own resistor next to them, and wired in parallel to the supplied battery case. Wires can be connected by soldering to the bare copper tabs at the edge of each module. The strip has good quality self adhesive on the back to attach each light to a surface. For less than $10 USD delivered to your door you get a whole metre of light strip and a decent battery box. Just food for thought.

Yes - these things are handy and very versatile.
This engine is gonna be a beauty illuminated with them!
 8)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: mklotz on March 16, 2021, 05:09:53 PM
I'm not big on power tapping, especially on objects in which I've invested a lot of time, but for the small stuff I think an electric screwdriver with its epicyclic drive can be an option.

You can read my thoughts on the subject here...

https://www.homemadetools.net/forum/tapping-screwdriver-51506#post74544
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 16, 2021, 06:06:03 PM
Hi Chris , this is going to be an interesting build, and there is so much to think about all at once !!!  Do you have all the drawings for this or are you having to measure everything up yourself ??  will be watching avidly to pickup all the info and tips for when or iff i undertake a similar project.. More grease to your elbow as we say over here in Blighty !!!   :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Hi Willy!
I got lucky, after I got a tour of the pumphouse a few years ago I asked the guy who organized the tour about getting access to take measurements. It turns out that he had found the original builders blueprints rolled up on a shelf in the back of the building several years before, and he very kindly gave me a copy of the scans he had done of every page - hundreds of pages of plans for the entire engine and building layout too. Quite a find, and very rare. I have spent the last couple years using those plans to make the 3D CAD model at full scale - then took a copy of it and scaled it down to 1:32nd scale, and am making the 2D drawings for the model from that.  Much as I would have loved to crawl all over the real engine, probably just as well that I was not hanging 60' in the air with a tape measure!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 16, 2021, 06:12:46 PM
Gary/Marv, I have used a power drill in the past for tapping, but only on larger sizes like 1/4-20. For small stuff like 2-56 and 1-72, I would never attempt it for tapping in metal, much prefer the feel of hand tapping for the little stuff. Even with brass, all it takes is one chip to bind up and likely break a tap, and the extra length I'd be holding with the drill would tend to put that much more side torque on the tap.
These base pieces have the most holes per square inch as any parts on this model, once past them it will be more like one per corner of a part. The pipe flanges have tons of screws, but those will more likely be studs with nuts through clearance-drilled holes.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 16, 2021, 08:09:37 PM
Today saw the last of the holes drilled in the two outer rings (another ring of holes goes in the center next). Then enlarged the two rows of holes towards the center to 3/8" diameter with an end mill - tried it first with drills, but the end mill actually went faster and gave a cleaner hole. I dont know what these particular holes are for, whether they were just a way of lightening the plate some, or if they needed access to a drain underneath. There is no way to crawl under the plates from those holes, there is a series of flanges on the bottom down to the floor. But, they are there in the original drawings so I am putting them in!
(https://i.postimg.cc/CM64J1bJ/IMG-9083.jpg)
The plates so far:
(https://i.postimg.cc/7hbnw8rg/IMG-9085.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/d3Xm0HJg/IMG-9084.jpg)
I am not going to start tapping the rings of holes yet - going to wait till the gridwork is milled in on the bottom first, which will make the surface with the holes thinner. The top surface will get relief cuts around the rings and pads too. Next up, I am going to add the smaller inner ring of holes to the drill guide and the three bases.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on March 16, 2021, 08:29:00 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Craig DeShong on March 17, 2021, 02:06:56 AM
Chris is making Chinese puzzles, ”Try to locate the place that is missing a hole”. :ROFL:

Like everyone else,I’m can’t wait for the next installment.



 :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 17, 2021, 02:24:51 AM
Chris is making Chinese puzzles, ”Try to locate the place that is missing a hole”. :ROFL:

Like everyone else,I’m can’t wait for the next installment.



 :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
I told the shop elves its a connect-the-dots picture of Elfvira. They've used up three pens so far!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 17, 2021, 02:17:03 PM
Like everyone else,I’m can’t wait for the next installment.

wait? All I do is blink and there seems to be another page of posts.  ::)

I sometimes think he has a shop of 20-some ghost machinists (think ghost writers) who never get credit.
Can't be the elves. The work is too good.  ;D
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 17, 2021, 02:46:59 PM
Like everyone else,I’m can’t wait for the next installment.

wait? All I do is blink and there seems to be another page of posts.  ::)

I sometimes think he has a shop of 20-some ghost machinists (think ghost writers) who never get credit.
Can't be the elves. The work is too good.  ;D
Dang, Zee peeked in the window of the factory building!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Don1966 on March 17, 2021, 05:01:42 PM
Awwww my hero, masterful work Dog....... :Love:




 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 17, 2021, 05:17:47 PM
As mentioned, I got another circle of holes in the drill guide for the center pattern, which will hold the pump plunger chamber. This pattern is a little smaller diameter and has fewer holes. Used that like with the outer patterns in the small drill press:
(https://i.postimg.cc/HxPNSbMp/IMG-9086.jpg)
With all the holes drilled in the base plates, time to start the relief shaping on the top surfaces. Started with the center rings, milled in on the rotary table with the plate held on a faceplate drilled/tapped to match the holes in the plate.
(https://i.postimg.cc/x8w4QYgh/IMG-9087.jpg)
To get the relief cuts in past the screws, some clamps were used to finish those areas, with the screws taken out.
Then finished up with the outer ring.

(https://i.postimg.cc/4y7Sjnvp/IMG-9088.jpg)
For one of the three base plates, the one for the LP cylinder, there will be another partial ring extending off to the side. This is on the blueprints for the engine, but there are no parts that sit on this ring. It is clear from notations on the plans that Holly re-used a lot of parts between engines, so this extra ring must either be for another engine style, or maybe it was for the original steam exhaust drain, and it was not used after the condensor was added. I doubt that though, since the plans dont show any piping that would connect here. Maybe steam engines have unused appendages left over after they evolved from dinosaur engines?  :Lol:

Center rings cut in on the first two plates:
(https://i.postimg.cc/y6D67Pvy/IMG-9089.jpg)
One more plate to go, then will start on the outer rings. The field around all the rings will be taken down after that, leaving the pads at the corners where the engine upright frames attach.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: ddmckee54 on March 17, 2021, 05:39:55 PM
Dinosaur engines?  You learn something new everyday.  I always thought that steam engines evolved from water wheels.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: kvom on March 18, 2021, 12:24:44 PM
This build is Chris showing off.   ^-^  Many months of entertainment for us in the gallery.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 18, 2021, 12:33:00 PM
This build is Chris showing off.   ^-^  Many months of entertainment for us in the gallery.
Don't forget to lob some peanuts in from the gallery for me!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 18, 2021, 03:33:20 PM
Got the center rings on all three plates milled down, then did the one plate with the partial ring out the side that I mentioned:
(https://i.postimg.cc/76P7QqQx/IMG-9090.jpg)
Then started in on the outer rings, beginning with the shapes at the very end - the pads at the corner that will hold the frame uprights, and the edge of the ring between them.
(https://i.postimg.cc/brsnp3hW/IMG-9096.jpg)
Doing the rest of the rings needed a couple of steps, since the base plates are too long to be able to swing in a full circle without hitting the mill column. So, with the center of the rotary table off to one side, did the first 3/4 or so of each circle:
(https://i.postimg.cc/x1HKXxzS/IMG-9097.jpg)
then movedf the table over to the other side of the column to finish off the arcs. The outsides of the rings meet the corner pads, so I stopped a little short there, and will do the pad edges with the bases held in the vise.

(https://i.postimg.cc/Pqj1YWWv/IMG-9099.jpg)
With all the rings outlined, switched out the rotary table for the big mill vise, and squared up the edges of the corner pads
(https://i.postimg.cc/1zrwH8BC/IMG-9100.jpg)
That leaves the rest of the field areas to take down, doing that in sections to reduce the overhang from the vise:
(https://i.postimg.cc/63HZkFDC/IMG-9101.jpg)
The tool marks show up looking nasty in the shop lights, but they feel smooth. I'll take them down with some sanding to a clean finish.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 18, 2021, 06:01:44 PM
The rest of the background is milled back on the tops of the base plates, and took the detail sander to them to smooth out the end mill toolmarks
(https://i.postimg.cc/QCq0BjYw/IMG-9102.jpg)
The shop elf on the upper right seems to approve, though the one just left of him seems to have fallen over. Too much Guinness from that pile of barrels!

Next up will be to cut the open gridwork into the undersides of the plates. Some might ask why, since it wont be seen, but I will know, plus it will take a bunch more weight out of the model. Just the cutting so far has taken them from about 5 pounds each down to 4, the gridwork should cut that in half again. After the gridwork, final step will be to taper the sides like the originals are. Lots of work in these bases, but I am glad I was not the one that had to pack all that sand into the casting molds for the originals! At 10' by 21.6', that must have been an interesting pour to watch!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on March 18, 2021, 09:41:56 PM
Looking great Chris!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

The brass stock does not seem to have warped much after milling the first side - probably not bananium then!  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 18, 2021, 09:47:45 PM
Looking great Chris!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

The brass stock does not seem to have warped much after milling the first side - probably not bananium then!  :Lol:
Nope - no warping at all - I had stress relieved it first, an hour at 500F in the oven and let it cool. Does a great job to keep the brass bar stock from bending as one side is milled away. Otherwise, its pure Bananium!  Helps to make sure there is no oil/grease on the bars first, or the oven gets real smokey and stinks up the house.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: gary.a.ayres on March 18, 2021, 10:26:11 PM
Looking great.

 :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on March 18, 2021, 11:20:26 PM
Hi Chris, good plan re the stress relief before machining. The oil removal before using the house oven is good advice. I incurred domestic wrath a few times tempering things or heating motorcycle / small engine parts for valve guide or insert installs, when I didn't get all the oil off.  They were   :facepalm: :slap: :help: situations.

My wife is extremely supportive of my workshop activities - as long as there is no oil smoke or swarf brought in the house! :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: john mills on March 19, 2021, 12:06:34 AM
Hi
to get the oil off you could run them through the dish washer .
I was working werehwe reconditioned engines .

The managing director had read about using dishwashers for cleaning small parts .Not telling us what he was intending he requested a tray containing 200 hyrolicic valve lifters or cam followers he was given the requested tray 200 parts dripping sump oil .he went home when the wife went out shopping the tray was put in the dish washer in the kitchen and the cycle started .we were told when the door was opened after a few minutes
oil every where  only thing that could be done was shut the door and continue the cycle.when the wife was heard returning  quick the cycle had finished everything clean took the tray out side .raided the pantry for some spray cooking oil to stop rusting .wife never new and the method of cleaning found to work.

John
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: fumopuc on March 19, 2021, 07:03:30 AM
The sky there in Rochester must be darken by some brass swarf.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 19, 2021, 12:09:06 PM
The sky there in Rochester must be darken by some brass swarf.
Sky is currently clear, but I had checked the 5 gallon collector bucket on the vacuum/seperator the other day, it was almost full and had to be emptied of its combination of steel, brass, wood, plastic from the last few projects!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on March 19, 2021, 01:28:26 PM
 :thinking:...and I felt certain all of that brass swarf would have been saved for heat treatment  :Mad: cooling beds..........

Maybe, as  I am just starting so 100 years beyond your treasure.. :wine1:

Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 19, 2021, 02:17:19 PM
:thinking: ...and I felt certain all of that brass swarf would have been save for heat treatment  :Mad: cooling beds..........

Maybe, as  I am just starting so 100 years beyond your treasure.. :wine1:

Derek
What a cute little jar of swarf. I think I made more than that this morning...   :Lol:

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 19, 2021, 04:04:56 PM
So, with the top faces on the base plates done, time to turn them over and put the gridwork into the bottom faces. Took some time to work out the pattern of movements to hit the corners of the openings with a small end mill, wrote that down, and followed the recipe to put holes at all the corners of the grids. This will make taking out the centers of the areas simple, just keep cutting till tangent with the corner holes.
(https://i.postimg.cc/DwFb1KHg/IMG-9103.jpg)
I sketched on the edges of the grids to make it easy to keep track of where I am - with the through-holes from the top side it can get confusing as to whats a corner hole and whats a through hole. Did this pattern on all three plates, then switched to a larger diameter end mill and started taking out the centers of the openings - these go about 3/4 of the way through the base.
(https://i.postimg.cc/vZzxzNdd/IMG-9104.jpg)
A few more sessions should see the grids roughed out - will go back with the smaller end mill to take the sides of the openings back to finished dimension, this step is just to remove the bulk of the material. So, I'll be returning the brass to its original swarf form, ready to be set free out in the wild.   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on March 19, 2021, 05:18:20 PM
That's gonna be a LOT of brass swarf!  :popcorn:

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on March 19, 2021, 08:52:52 PM
I think I'll make a backyard brass swarf feeder this weekend, in case any of Chris's brass swarf wanders by on its' return to the wild......... :insane: :Lol:

Machining looks great Chris!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Pretty soon you will be able to direct people to a particular hole on a picture by saying "on the northwest corner of A street at 3rd street, in LP town"  :naughty: :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 19, 2021, 09:15:19 PM
I think I'll make a backyard brass swarf feeder this weekend, in case any of Chris's brass swarf wanders by on its' return to the wild......... :insane: :Lol:

Machining looks great Chris!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Pretty soon you will be able to direct people to a particular hole on a picture by saying "on the northwest corner of A street at 3rd street, in LP town"  :naughty: :cheers:


 :lolb:


So far, I am making the catacombs...!


Must be removing a bunch, noticing that the first baseplate is a lot lighter than it started.  Was looking ahead to the crankshaft base plates that will sit up at the top of the lower frames. Those bases are very thick, will likely piece them up from plate stock given thier size.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: samc88 on March 20, 2021, 10:54:29 AM
Lovely work, looks an impressive project. Cant be the only one disappointed that you aren't making 1260 check valves though!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 20, 2021, 11:37:45 AM
Lovely work, looks an impressive project. Cant be the only one disappointed that you aren't making 1260 check valves though!
If it was only 1000 I would...    :Jester:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Don1966 on March 20, 2021, 04:04:50 PM
You never cease to amaze me Dog...... :Love:



 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 20, 2021, 05:33:05 PM
Thanks Don! Great to have you along.

Yesterday I started taking out the center sections of the grids with a medium sized end mill. It is too big to get all the way into the corners, but it takes out the bulk of the material pretty easily.
(https://i.postimg.cc/wx0JP2Mc/IMG-9105.jpg)
Then went back and used the smaller cutter to trimm the sides out to size and tangent with the corners. This part went a lot faster.
(https://i.postimg.cc/7Yh7yzTv/IMG-9106.jpg)
So, one set of very heavy small parts trays, or a brass waffle maker for the elves, is done. Started in on the next one, have about 3/4 of the centers taken out on that one so far. I got tired of holding the end of the vacuum nozzle near the cutter to keep the chips from obstructing the view of the edges, and grabbed an offcut of large steer bar, taped the nozzle to that, and set it next to the mill. Much more convenient that way.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on March 20, 2021, 11:50:40 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

I'm sure you thought of this when you were laying out the grids in CAD- are the openings sized so they are just a bit tight to fit any possible multiple array of Elfensteiner stubby empties? Wouldn't want the shop elves to appropriate these beauty grid plates to become the world's most well made but expensive beer crates!   :Lol:

Hope the shop elves are coping OK with their 223 wheelbarrow loads per day of the brass swarf. Thirsty work to be sure,,,,,, :naughty:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 20, 2021, 11:57:29 PM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

I'm sure you thought of this when you were laying out the grids in CAD- are the openings sized so they are just a bit tight to fit any possible multiple array of Elfensteiner stubby empties? Wouldn't want the shop elves to appropriate these beauty grid plates to become the world's most well made but expensive beer crates!   :Lol:

Hope the shop elves are coping OK with their 223 wheelbarrow loads per day of the brass swarf. Thirsty work to be sure,,,,,, :naughty:
Huh. That would explain the little bottle caps in the grids...   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Elam Works on March 21, 2021, 03:39:35 AM
Chris,

Well when you have the elves on piece rates you cannot expect them to take time to walk over to the trash receptacle. Lucky you are not running CNC or they probably would be wizzing in the coolant tanks...

-Doug
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: PJPickard on March 21, 2021, 12:44:37 PM
Every project of your is really interesting to me...this one is REALLY interesting! Looking forward to watching this one!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 21, 2021, 01:17:29 PM
Every project of your is really interesting to me...this one is REALLY interesting! Looking forward to watching this one!
Glad to have you along for the ride - there are a bunch of parts that will be new challenges for me, will be figuring out a lot as I go along on how to fabricate things.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 21, 2021, 07:50:19 PM
More work this afternoon on the third beer crate, I mean base plate....
(https://i.postimg.cc/cCQD2JC5/IMG-9107.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on March 21, 2021, 08:14:06 PM
You're almost to the end of the waffle iron plates there Chris!  But shouldn't your help there be wearing eye protection?   At least the beer isn't open while he's operating the machinery!  You'd have Elf-OSHA (ElfSHA?) all over you for that!

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 22, 2021, 04:03:08 PM
You're almost to the end of the waffle iron plates there Chris!  But shouldn't your help there be wearing eye protection?   At least the beer isn't open while he's operating the machinery!  You'd have Elf-OSHA (ElfSHA?) all over you for that!

Kim
Better to have the occasional Elf-Sha visit than a Oh-Sh** !
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 22, 2021, 04:10:10 PM
So, with the waffle-maker patterns complete, last bit of milling is to angle the edges of the plates. For the long sides, the plates were stood up on edge and shims put at the bottom on one side and the top on the other side to tilt it over the 4.9 degree angle, checked with a protractor.
(https://i.postimg.cc/1XSfYZmm/IMG-9110.jpg)
The mill height was set to cut almost to the lower edge, and passes made to take the side down, leaving a lip at the top. That lip was then taken off square to the plate by removing the shims and letting the plate stand vertical.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Y0xj5y01/IMG-9111.jpg)
For the short edges, standing it up on end would leave too much sticking out of the vise, so I turned the vise sideways and put a shim under one end of the plate.
(https://i.postimg.cc/WpmDqt8h/IMG-9113.jpg)
then likewise setting the plate flat and milling the lip at the top off. Here is a vieew of the completed angles - doesn't show up that great in the pictures, but in person the compound angles give a nice look, much better than the square vertical edges. I assume they did the angles to make it easier to make and remove the casting molds. Thats a good question for the casting experts out there - would something this huge be done in a sand mold, or would they have done it some other way that I cannot think of? In modern construction a lot of stuff like this would be pieced up by welding robots, but that was not an option back then.   :thinking:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on March 22, 2021, 05:26:43 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Yes on the sand casting for the originals. Such large castings would be "floor" or "pit" mouldings, actually done in the sand / loam floor of the foundry. Wood pattern for lower half of casting would be rammed up deep in the floor, parting lines arranged as usual. The upper half of the mould was often rammed up in a large "floor flask" frame grid , the pattern pulled out, and the upper half mould turned over and placed on the lower half, using the crane. Lots of weight added to the mould's upper half to resist the buouancy of the iron. The casting would be poured from a big ladle handled by the crane, or in really big pours, direct from the cupola in floor channels to the mould. Some castings if a flat top was possible with no coring were poured "open" with no top mould, and sand thrown on top after initial solidification to stop chilling / hard spots. Locomotive cast frames were done this way in some cases. Floor moulding area of foundries was an extremely dangerous workplace. Putting your boot or hand down in the wrong place could be fatal or at least result in a catastrophic injury. I witnessed a few small and medium size floor pours with cast steel (thankfully with no safety related incidents at all) during a co-op at a steel making firm when I was a student. Not long afterward, that type/scale of large casting industry, iron or steel,  pretty much disappeared in Ontario Canada. Lots of it still done in Korea and Taiwan I understand, for the ship engine / heavy equipment markets. Still several excellent foundries in Ontario doing smaller iron castings and non ferrous.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 22, 2021, 07:28:50 PM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Yes on the sand casting for the originals. Such large castings would be "floor" or "pit" mouldings, actually done in the sand / loam floor of the foundry. Wood pattern for lower half of casting would be rammed up deep in the floor, parting lines arranged as usual. The upper half of the mould was often rammed up in a large "floor flask" frame grid , the pattern pulled out, and the upper half mould turned over and placed on the lower half, using the crane. Lots of weight added to the mould's upper half to resist the buouancy of the iron. The casting would be poured from a big ladle handled by the crane, or in really big pours, direct from the cupola in floor channels to the mould. Some castings if a flat top was possible with no coring were poured "open" with no top mould, and sand thrown on top after initial solidification to stop chilling / hard spots. Locomotive cast frames were done this way in some cases. Floor moulding area of foundries was an extremely dangerous workplace. Putting your boot or hand down in the wrong place could be fatal or at least result in a catastrophic injury. I witnessed a few small and medium size floor pours with cast steel (thankfully with no safety related incidents at all) during a co-op at a steel making firm when I was a student. Not long afterward, that type/scale of large casting industry, iron or steel,  pretty much disappeared in Ontario Canada. Lots of it still done in Korea and Taiwan I understand, for the ship engine / heavy equipment markets. Still several excellent foundries in Ontario doing smaller iron castings and non ferrous.
Fascinating! Amazing how many ways that same basic technology was used.


And this was the first time I ever heard the phrase 'bouyancy of the iron', though now that you mention it I have seen videos of casting work where weights were placed on top of the upper flask.

Thanks for the info!!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 22, 2021, 07:30:28 PM
And no shop time this afternoon, we finally got some sunny weather up around 70F so I packed the elves into the RC submarine and took them down to the pond for the first RC run of the season. Great to get outside and play!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on March 22, 2021, 09:48:01 PM
Yep, too nice outside to be inside all day. I was out at noon for a good walk.

I'll have a troll around in yoot ube and see if anyone has posted any video of floor moulding / casting of big parts.

 I wouldn't think the icebreaker would be needed on the submarine pond, but any scale iceberg floaters? Hope the elves were sobered up and had no hangovers for their silent run.  :Lol:

Hope you had fun with the RC boats.   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 22, 2021, 10:36:03 PM
Yep, too nice outside to be inside all day. I was out at noon for a good walk.

I'll have a troll around in yoot ube and see if anyone has posted any video of floor moulding / casting of big parts.

 I wouldn't think the icebreaker would be needed on the submarine pond, but any scale iceberg floaters? Hope the elves were sobered up and had no hangovers for their silent run.  :Lol:

Hope you had fun with the RC boats.   :cheers:
Perfect afternoon out - weekday so not many people around, all the ice is gone, water level was high, and the Weed Monster has not migrated back north yet!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: gary.a.ayres on March 22, 2021, 10:54:20 PM
Impressive milling on that plate...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 22, 2021, 11:07:59 PM
Impressive milling on that plate...
Thanks Gary! One plate was enough, but in this case it needs three of them so it took a fair bit longer! Even though the grid work wont be seen in the final model, it does reduce the weight by half.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 23, 2021, 03:51:42 PM
Some done this morning - got the bolt holes drilled through the aluminum floor plate (currently being painted concrete grey) for the base plates and the wood base. It was too big for one go in the mill, so I laid out and drilled the holes down one side, bolted the bases on, and used them as drill guides for the other holes (after making sure they were nice and square to the floor and the proper distances apart). There are 8 holes holding each base down, one in each corner under the frame pads, and four more closer to the center. The bolts for the corners will go up through the frames, and get a nut where they come out on the frame legs (this is how the originals were).

(https://i.postimg.cc/Fzc7hqJ7/IMG-9118.jpg)
Then, the UPS truck showed up just in time with my order from LMS of a hand tapping jig. Never used one before, but with this many holes in the bases and all the small holes to come in the frames and floor plates, thought it was worth a try. Looks very promising, did the first 8 or 10 holes pretty quick with a 2-56 tap. Couple complaints with it: it is set up and labeled for inch-size tap bases, but its set screws are all metric sockets.   :facepalm2:   The holes in the adapters for the taps are too large, so the tap gets held off-center - I made a little brass bushing for the small tap sizes to fix that, easy. Lastly, the big bolts that hold the upper frame to the base plate it came with are too long, and stuck out the bottom, causing it to rock. An extra washer fixed that. Simple stuff. Overall, I like it, and it saved me the time/materials to make my own.
(https://i.postimg.cc/BZ1858w4/IMG-9135.jpg)
And its easy enough to use that a couple cookies have bribed, er, enticed, the shop elves to help out!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on March 23, 2021, 04:01:57 PM
Glad to see the cookies got the handle swingers into action!

A thought on the metric setscrews - if you change them to be a little longer you can maybe order ones with a slot for a screwdriver or cut a slot in them for one yourself. Or silver solder inch size sockets from inch capscrews onto them!

In my case I'd consider firing up my homebuilt EDM and burn the sockets out to next bigger inch size using a hex brass or copper electrode. For small setscrews it would only take a few minutes' burn time.

 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on March 23, 2021, 04:30:55 PM
Interesting little gadget, Chris. You'll have to let us know how you like it in a few hundred threads :)  :popcorn:
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Roger B on March 23, 2021, 05:45:03 PM
Wonderful  :praise2:  :praise2: So many holes and so much swarf  :)  :ThumbsUp:  :wine1:

Is the tapping tool designed to be lubricated with Elfsteiner?

I tend to use my little Proxxon bench drill as a tapping tool but I am usually working against the return spring.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 23, 2021, 07:38:52 PM
Wonderful  :praise2: :praise2: So many holes and so much swarf  :) :ThumbsUp: :wine1:

Is the tapping tool designed to be lubricated with Elfsteiner?

I tend to use my little Proxxon bench drill as a tapping tool but I am usually working against the return spring.
I actually considered doing that, if I spot a used one cheap I'd have gotten it, taken off that spring, and put a t handle on the top pulley.


I'll have to look in the shop and see if the elves did any more, I have been off at the pond again.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 23, 2021, 09:39:02 PM
After dinner went in and gave the new tapping thingy a good workout - I like it. Made short work of tapping the 72 holes in one plate with a 2-56 tap, never had risk of twisting the tap off to the side, and it is easier on the wrists than holding everything by hand with a t-handle holder. There is still the repetitive motion, but its less, and backing the tap out can be done by twirling the t-handle with one finger. The unit is pretty heavy, which is good, no wobbling about on the table. If it needed more height to get over a tall part, it should be easy to make an extension for the base, between the cast part and the base plate.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: mklotz on March 23, 2021, 09:48:17 PM
Do think about adding a fitting to the top of the shaft so it can be driven with an electric screwdriver.  It might save you from wrist problems due to repetitive motion.  I think a screwdriver is the best choice because it has very low RPM and instantaneous start/stop when the switch is released.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 23, 2021, 09:49:56 PM
Do think about adding a fitting to the top of the shaft so it can be driven with an electric screwdriver.  It might save you from wrist problems due to repetitive motion.  I think a screwdriver is the best choice because it has very low RPM and instantaneous start/stop when the switch is released.
Like one of the small ones they use for electronic assembly? I have a big screw gun, the size of a normal drill, but that would be way too big. The little ones could be good though.

 :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: mklotz on March 24, 2021, 03:21:05 PM
Like one of the small ones they use for electronic assembly? I have a big screw gun, the size of a normal drill, but that would be way too big. The little ones could be good though.

Yes, a little one, e.g...

https://www.amazon.com/BLACK-DECKER-Li2000-Rechargeable-Screwdriver/dp/B005LTNLDS/ref=sxin_10_ac_d_rm?ac_md=0-0-ZWxlY3RyaWMgc2NyZXdkcml2ZXIgY29yZGxlc3M%3D-ac_d_rm&crid=3SV4KYZ3S8OEA&cv_ct_cx=electric+screwdriver+cordless&dchild=1&keywords=electric+screwdriver+cordless&pd_rd_i=B005LTNLDS&pd_rd_r=1fc33618-8346-4fb9-bac6-8a203197b763&pd_rd_w=HnbNW&pd_rd_wg=wAPNL&pf_rd_p=b0625ac1-ea22-4a1c-8206-57129b08e075&pf_rd_r=JRZN3FVQN2QGGD7TRC91&psc=1&qid=1616598811&sprefix=electric+screw%2Caps%2C238&sr=1-1-12d4272d-8adb-4121-8624-135149aa9081

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 24, 2021, 03:26:08 PM
Like one of the small ones they use for electronic assembly? I have a big screw gun, the size of a normal drill, but that would be way too big. The little ones could be good though.

Yes, a little one, e.g...

https://www.amazon.com/BLACK-DECKER-Li2000-Rechargeable-Screwdriver/dp/B005LTNLDS/ref=sxin_10_ac_d_rm?ac_md=0-0-ZWxlY3RyaWMgc2NyZXdkcml2ZXIgY29yZGxlc3M%3D-ac_d_rm&crid=3SV4KYZ3S8OEA&cv_ct_cx=electric+screwdriver+cordless&dchild=1&keywords=electric+screwdriver+cordless&pd_rd_i=B005LTNLDS&pd_rd_r=1fc33618-8346-4fb9-bac6-8a203197b763&pd_rd_w=HnbNW&pd_rd_wg=wAPNL&pf_rd_p=b0625ac1-ea22-4a1c-8206-57129b08e075&pf_rd_r=JRZN3FVQN2QGGD7TRC91&psc=1&qid=1616598811&sprefix=electric+screw%2Caps%2C238&sr=1-1-12d4272d-8adb-4121-8624-135149aa9081 (https://www.amazon.com/BLACK-DECKER-Li2000-Rechargeable-Screwdriver/dp/B005LTNLDS/ref=sxin_10_ac_d_rm?ac_md=0-0-ZWxlY3RyaWMgc2NyZXdkcml2ZXIgY29yZGxlc3M%3D-ac_d_rm&crid=3SV4KYZ3S8OEA&cv_ct_cx=electric+screwdriver+cordless&dchild=1&keywords=electric+screwdriver+cordless&pd_rd_i=B005LTNLDS&pd_rd_r=1fc33618-8346-4fb9-bac6-8a203197b763&pd_rd_w=HnbNW&pd_rd_wg=wAPNL&pf_rd_p=b0625ac1-ea22-4a1c-8206-57129b08e075&pf_rd_r=JRZN3FVQN2QGGD7TRC91&psc=1&qid=1616598811&sprefix=electric+screw%2Caps%2C238&sr=1-1-12d4272d-8adb-4121-8624-135149aa9081)
Looks worth a try, thanks Marv!   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RonGinger on March 24, 2021, 08:59:14 PM
Have a look at one made by Dewalt- it  has a gyroscope in it and you control the speed by simple twist of you wrist. It works in any orientation- straight up, down, any  where.  You pick it up, point it into the screw and give a slight twist and it starts to run. Twist more and it runs faster. I got it for less than this one on Amazon with just the driver.

https://www.amazon.com/DEWALT-DCF682N1-Gyroscopic-Screwdriver-Screwdriving/dp/B07S8D62P6/ref=sr_1_26?crid=17WXPANR4WJ4&dchild=1&keywords=dewalt+screw+gun+cordless&qid=1616619355&sprefix=dewalt+scrrew%2Caps%2C181&sr=8-26 (https://www.amazon.com/DEWALT-DCF682N1-Gyroscopic-Screwdriver-Screwdriving/dp/B07S8D62P6/ref=sr_1_26?crid=17WXPANR4WJ4&dchild=1&keywords=dewalt+screw+gun+cordless&qid=1616619355&sprefix=dewalt+scrrew%2Caps%2C181&sr=8-26)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 24, 2021, 09:20:34 PM
Funny that Marv. I just put one in my cart the other day after reading some of your posts on that website of home made tools and things.

Don't believe those elves people. They're not saying "Look what I did". They're saying "Look what Chris did".
But if they were truthful, they'd be saying "Look what that guy behind the curtain did".
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 24, 2021, 09:31:18 PM
Funny that Marv. I just put one in my cart the other day after reading some of your posts on that website of home made tools and things.

Don't believe those elves people. They're not saying "Look what I did". They're saying "Look what Chris did".
But if they were truthful, they'd be saying "Look what that guy behind the curtain did".
The guy behind the curtain is just a slightly larger elf!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 24, 2021, 09:45:29 PM
Well, the elves and I have been busy today, too rainy to head back out to the pond so we played in the shop. The new tapping tool worked great, and we whipped through the rest of the tapping on the base plates - 72 size 2-56 holes per plate. Then got them degreased and painted (Duplicolor Engine Enamel, Cast Coat Iron color). Here they are bolted to the floor plate, and the floor plate is bolted to the wood base.
(https://i.postimg.cc/VNNRyS8d/IMG-9137.jpg)
For scale, thats a 6" ruler in the lower left. Just the base parts done, and its already up to 14.6 pounds. Going to need one of those benchtop cranes you guys made for your trains!
Next parts get interesting to make - the lower level (pump level) frames, which go from the pads on the corners of the base plates up to the engine bed level, where the crankshaft will be. Need 12 of them. Each is basically straight, but they flare out at the ends, with angled pads. The frames angle in towards the ones on the opposite side, and each pair angles in towards the other pair on the same base. Going to need to make up some jigs for shaping the ends of the frames, and have to figure out how to do the flared sections at the ends.
Here is what the forest of pump frames looks like:
(https://i.postimg.cc/DwNWZmGW/Lower-Frames.jpg)
End view:
(https://i.postimg.cc/gkNXCgkH/Lower-Frames-End-View.jpg)
Side view showing the angled-in frames in each pair:
(https://i.postimg.cc/FHzdN0Y5/Lower-Frames-Side-View.jpg)
Going to take some figuring on how best to make these, and make them come out accurate as well - already envisioning some of the jigs...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on March 24, 2021, 11:16:45 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Time to "get jiggy wit it" as the pop music kids used to say.

Or as an old foreman of mine said often " ours is not to question why, ours is but to tool and die". Yes, he was a warped individual. (Especially after his tot of Navy rum - he was ex RCN and served on Corvettes in WW2)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 24, 2021, 11:19:38 PM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Time to "get jiggy wit it" as the pop music kids used to say.

Or as an old foreman of mine said often " ours is not to question why, ours is but to tool and die". Yes, he was a warped individual. (Especially after his tot of Navy rum - he was ex RCN and served on Corvettes in WW2)
Oh, HE was warped...... ooooookay.....    :lolb:    I do like the tool and die saying though.


My old coworkers used to say I didn't HAVE character, I WAS one!  Back when my mother was doing the genealogy for the family, she found sea captains, camping guides, soldiers, all that sort of thing. Most fun was the horse thief and the accused witch! 
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: gary.a.ayres on March 25, 2021, 12:08:00 AM
I hope the accused witch managed to evade those who accused her...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 25, 2021, 12:31:19 AM
I hope the accused witch managed to evade those who accused her...
Fortunately accused, not burned!




As an avid ship model builder, it was really fun to find out an ancestor was captain of the Sea Witch clipper ship. So, sorta two witch connections!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on March 25, 2021, 12:42:09 AM
Chris...

Yesterday, you say with the image ....'these are the Lower 6 pair of legs'........are the upper and lower pairs of 6 each legs of the same size & profile etc?

What material do you propose to use?   ....& fabricated construction [soldered feet] or a lot more swarf  :facepalm:

Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: gary.a.ayres on March 25, 2021, 12:44:15 AM

Fortunately accused, not burned!

 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steam guy willy on March 25, 2021, 12:46:53 AM
Hi Chris , this is going to be an amazing engine build with all these highly detailed parts to make ... but will be worth all the effort when compleated   :popcorn: :popcorn:

Willy
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steamer on March 25, 2021, 01:01:53 AM
 :o :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :cheers:

Steamer Likey!!!

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 25, 2021, 01:14:56 AM
Chris...

Yesterday, you say with the image ....'these are the Lower 6 pair of legs'........are the upper and lower pairs of 6 each legs of the same size & profile etc?

What material do you propose to use?   ....& fabricated construction [soldered feet] or a lot more swarf  :facepalm:

Derek
The center section of all are approximately 1/2" square, but the lengths and angles differ between top and bottom sets, also the end pads differ. The top pairs are also joined at the top. Bottom line, they can share some of the same bar stock source, but thats it.
All the frames will be brass, I got a good price on lengths of the square bar, most likely old stock from cheaper days. The pads at the ends will be made separate and soldered or pinned on.the flared bits at the ends, not sure yet, experimenting with that now. Might mold or hand work them in.
Making the frames from one piece each would be way too much work and material.


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 25, 2021, 01:16:53 AM
Hi Chris , this is going to be an amazing engine build with all these highly detailed parts to make ... but will be worth all the effort when compleated   :popcorn: :popcorn:

Willy
Thanks Willy, nice to have you along. Like your projects, I love to be able to see and photo the original machines, so much more inspiration.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 25, 2021, 01:17:25 AM
:o :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :cheers:

Steamer Likey!!!

Dave


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 26, 2021, 03:43:40 PM
This morning I drove over to Syracuse for my first dose of the Covid vaccine.   :cartwheel:   All the local sites in Rochester were getting booked as fast as they put up new appointment openings - the soonest I could get close to home was mid-May, but they have a huge site at the state fairgrounds where I was able to get an appointment the next day after they opened up shots to my age group, so it was well worth the drive.


On the way, was thinking about the jigs to mill the ends of the pump frames, and came up with a couple simple ones to hold the parts at the angles and position to do the compound angles on all the ends - I want to put a tenon on the ends of the main frame rails to fit into the pads at top and bottom, so I want to be able to set up the rails with all four sides at the top in turn. Since there are left/right and front/back versions of the frames, all mirror images of each other, that was a little confusing to work out.

After I got home, I fired up Fusion to draw them up, and calculate out the dimensions so that I can make them from stock sizes of bar stock. Since there are twelve of the frames rails, all with compound angles at both top and bottom, its well worth the time to make up holding jigs for the mill!

Will show pictures of the jigs and how they work once I have them made up.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: gary.a.ayres on March 26, 2021, 04:46:11 PM
Congrats on the vax Chris!  :cheers:

My good woman and I both had ours recently too.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on March 26, 2021, 05:45:30 PM
Hi Chris, congrats on getting the vaccine! good news.

In my area the authorities are still having problems getting just the 80 year old and above group vaccinated. Estimates are Sept/Oct to get to the 50-60 age group, and possibly into 2022 for under 30 group.  :hellno: Bloody disgraceful, totally mishandled, from federal level all the way to municipal level here in Ontario. :Mad: :cussing: :Mad: :cussing: :slap:

Happier subject -  :cheers: A thought on your jigs - for handling the mirror image machining, a leaf jig with a hinge in the middle, working like turning the page in a book, parts fastened to each side of the flipping "page" or leaf, can be handy for that. Used many of them for electronics assembly tooling over the years in the day job.

Cheers, the warped one, CNR6400 (about warp factor 1 today - maybe higher factor tomorrow!  :Lol:)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 26, 2021, 06:48:35 PM
Hi Chris, congrats on getting the vaccine! good news.

In my area the authorities are still having problems getting just the 80 year old and above group vaccinated. Estimates are Sept/Oct to get to the 50-60 age group, and possibly into 2022 for under 30 group.  :hellno: Bloody disgraceful, totally mishandled, from federal level all the way to municipal level here in Ontario. :Mad: :cussing: :Mad: :cussing: :slap:

Happier subject -  :cheers: A thought on your jigs - for handling the mirror image machining, a leaf jig with a hinge in the middle, working like turning the page in a book, parts fastened to each side of the flipping "page" or leaf, can be handy for that. Used many of them for electronics assembly tooling over the years in the day job.

Cheers, the warped one, CNR6400 (about warp factor 1 today - maybe higher factor tomorrow!  :Lol: )
Absolutely rediculous that it should be taking them so long!




What I came up with is something like the hinged type you describe, I think, just without the hinge. Two matched pairs, for any side and end, three will be used to get the compound angle. Pics later.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: sid pileski on March 26, 2021, 07:27:31 PM
Hey Chris-

Being from Skaneateles, basically Syracuse, I got my first one there too.
Second one will be on the 30th, next week.

I was impressed by the organization of it all at the fair grounds. Everybody was pleasant and it was well oiled.

Sid
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 26, 2021, 07:37:31 PM
Hey Chris-

Being from Skaneateles, basically Syracuse, I got my first one there too.
Second one will be on the 30th, next week.

I was impressed by the organization of it all at the fair grounds. Everybody was pleasant and it was well oiled.

Sid
Yeah, I was surprised how easy it went, very helpful people guiding through the steps. 70 stations, they were really cranking people through.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: mklotz on March 26, 2021, 08:29:22 PM
My wife and I were equally astounded at how well organized the drive through setup in the LA Forum parking lot was done when we were there.  Considering that LA county has 10+ million people (more than 41 of the 50 states), the fact that they could organize anything successfully is incredible.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Jo on March 26, 2021, 09:37:40 PM
This morning I drove over to Syracuse for my first dose of the Covid vaccine.   :cartwheel: 

Do they give you a sticker/badge for having it? My parents didn't get one with theirs and I have not heard the end of it  ::)

Jo

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 26, 2021, 09:52:12 PM
This morning I drove over to Syracuse for my first dose of the Covid vaccine.   :cartwheel: 

Do they give you a sticker/badge for having it? My parents didn't get one with theirs and I have not heard the end of it  ::)

Jo
Hey, I like those!  Maybe someone with CNC or a 3D printer can make an official MEM covid-shot badge...


No, we don't get anything like that, just a printed card that they fill out with the name/date/time/lot number/etc to prove that we got it, and let them track it back if our heads fall off or something.

So far, only side effect for me is a very slight sore spot where they did the injection, same as with any shot. Looking forward to getting the second dose in three weeks (at least they made the appointment for that with the first dose, same day of week and time so easy to remember).


The shop elves felt left out, so I offered to put them in the drill press and drill a hole in thier arm. No more complaints... 


Has Surus gotten his shot? Leg or trunk??
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: mklotz on March 26, 2021, 10:12:18 PM
Completely ANECDOTAL aftereffect data from my family.

Moderna - 2 for 2 uncomfortable after effects - nausea, headache, soreness
Pfizer - 3 for 3 nothing important - wife had mild discomfort around injection site

Paperwork...

In addition to the cards issued at the inoculation sites, we received official cards in the mail.  I scanned them and we carry the scans in our wallets in the fond hope that some day they may gain us admission to a real sit-down indoor restaurant.

Outdoor dining is legal here and yesterday we ate sushi and tempura on the patio of a local restaurant overlooking the Pacific and a fine view of Catalina. (Kalifornia may be a liberal hell, but the weather and landscape are worth it.)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 26, 2021, 11:26:56 PM
Completely ANECDOTAL aftereffect data from my family.

Moderna - 2 for 2 uncomfortable after effects - nausea, headache, soreness
Pfizer - 3 for 3 nothing important - wife had mild discomfort around injection site

Paperwork...

In addition to the cards issued at the inoculation sites, we received official cards in the mail.  I scanned them and we carry the scans in our wallets in the fond hope that some day they may gain us admission to a real sit-down indoor restaurant.

Outdoor dining is legal here and yesterday we ate sushi and tempura on the patio of a local restaurant overlooking the Pacific and a fine view of Catalina. (Kalifornia may be a liberal hell, but the weather and landscape are worth it.)
I totally agree with all that, except I like my fish battered and fried!   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 26, 2021, 11:29:40 PM
Did a little more playing around with the jig design, and realized that what I had drawn was easy to make, would have been a pain in the swarf to use since several independant parts are clumsy to arrange in the mill vise.   :slap:

Had another brain-storm (hopefully not another brain-fart), and came up with a much simpler approach using clamping cradles on a base plate. So, assuming I dont realize something bad with that, will build that this weekend.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steamboatmodel on March 26, 2021, 11:47:27 PM
My wife being Medical Personal and in contact with patients all the time got her first shot on Friday. My family Doctors clinic has started giving 70+ appointments, they had two days of appointments both filled in two minutes.
Gerald.   
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: gary.a.ayres on March 27, 2021, 12:43:36 AM

The shop elves felt left out, so I offered to put them in the drill press and drill a hole in thier arm. No more complaints... 


If they get too nervous about that you could always offer to clamp them to the lathe faceplate and administer the dose via a drill in the tailstock. They'd be so dizzy they wouldn't notice the jab.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 27, 2021, 12:53:48 AM

The shop elves felt left out, so I offered to put them in the drill press and drill a hole in thier arm. No more complaints... 


If they get too nervous about that you could always offer to clamp them to the lathe faceplate and administer the dose via a drill in the tailstock. They'd be so dizzy they wouldn't notice the jab.


 :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on March 27, 2021, 11:29:57 AM
Or grab a wire-type file cleaning card, and tell them the vaccine's on it, drop your trousers and have a seat...... :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Jo on March 27, 2021, 01:44:44 PM
Has Surus gotten his shot? Leg or trunk??

He's too young they are only doing old fogies and people with underlying health conditions so far  ::)

Jo
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 27, 2021, 11:18:16 PM
Okay, so, back on the pumping engine lower frames.  I made up Mk-2 of the holding jig, the first version not making past the eyeball-after-design phase.  This version uses a single base plate, drilled with a pattern of holes determined in the CAD application to give the angles I need to give the frame rails the different direction lean in towards the center. Here is what I came up with to mill the angles on the upper and lower ends, plus mill the tenons at each end that will go through the pads to be added to the ends.

The bottom of the plate has two pairs of holes at either end to hold clamping cradles that will hold the frames at 10.23 degrees from the centerline. The areas around the holes on the bottom was recessed to let the screw heads sit in from the bottom of the plate so it will lay flat in the vise.

(https://i.postimg.cc/3ww3msy0/IMG-9138.jpg)
Here is a side view, showing the cradles clamped around the rail. The lower halves of the cradles are threaded, so they are held tight to the plate by the screws. The top halves of the cradles clamp down using nuts on each screw. Also, note the little piece of 1/16" thick stock under the frame rail/on top of the lower cradle at the right hand end of the photo. This lifts that end to give it the desired 1.7 degrees of lean in that direction. Depending on which end of which rail I am working on, this shim gets put on the cradle at one end of the rail or the other. In combination with putting the cradles in one pair of holes or the other, all the combinations needed for compound angles on the rails/tenons can be done.
(https://i.postimg.cc/YCRp4rSw/IMG-9139.jpg)
The two vertical screws are there to be position stops when making the tenons. When milling the angle on the end of the rails, those screws will be removed.

So, here is the jig clamped down in the mill vise in the position used to cut the angle on the end as well as the tenon cuts on the top/bottom of the rail.
(https://i.postimg.cc/VkmfLrmR/IMG-9140.jpg)
To cut the tenon sides, and get a square corner where the tenon meets the main frame rail, the jig can be tipped up on either side. The shiny area on either side of the main plate is where I milled a shallow recess in the top of the plate, which gives a lip for the plate to sit on top of the vise jaws, aligning it level. I could not make the plate wide enough to reach the bottom of the vise without making it so wide it would not fit in the vise when down flat.
(https://i.postimg.cc/s20scTS6/IMG-9141.jpg)
This looks like it will work out. Yes, a lot of work to make the jig, but considering that I need to cut angles and tenons on all four sides of both ends of 12 frame rails, it is well worth it in time and accuracy gained.

But, not starting on the rails tonight - want to start fresh on that in a morning!  First I need to rough cut all the rails to length from the longer bar stock, and mark all the ends for which combination of angles it needs at either end. Without doing that, its pretty guaranteed to mix up the direction of cuts with that many to do!

Again, here is the forest of frames that is being made, each set of four needing to match the others, and each rail in each set leaning in towards the center in both directions. Should be either fun or totally maddening to keep everything organized!!

(https://i.postimg.cc/DwNWZmGW/Lower-Frames.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on March 27, 2021, 11:24:20 PM
The jig setup looks great Chris, time well spent I think, and the frames will be that much better, I think, than with no jig.  :cheers:

 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

(impulse engines only today- 0 warp factor :Lol:- enjoyed some time in my shop today, first in a while. :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 28, 2021, 12:22:25 AM
The jig setup looks great Chris, time well spent I think, and the frames will be that much better, I think, than with no jig.  :cheers:

 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

(impulse engines only today- 0 warp factor :Lol: - enjoyed some time in my shop today, first in a while. :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: )
Glad you are up to shop time again!   :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 28, 2021, 03:51:53 PM
Started in milling the compound angles on the ends of the pump frame rails this morning. All the rails are marked on two faces at each end for which direction the angles go, to help ensure that they go into the jig in the proper orientation.
(https://i.postimg.cc/5N0G58by/IMG-9143.jpg)
It will take a while to run through all of them, the first ends will go a bit quicker, the second ends slower since the overall length has to be measured and the parts taken to dimension.  After the ends all get angled, then will start on the tenon cutting...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on March 28, 2021, 05:23:41 PM
Thanks Chris! Your first cuts on the frames look great.  :cheers:   :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: gary.a.ayres on March 28, 2021, 06:00:20 PM
Great solution to the job of cutting all those angles.

 :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 28, 2021, 07:01:23 PM
Thanks guys! As expected, cutting the compound angle on the first end of every piece went pretty quick, and the second ends are goin slower since I have to stop and measure the length on each one, sneaking up on the finished dimension. So far the jig is working quite well.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on March 28, 2021, 08:17:23 PM
Just a thought Chris - Could you glue a block onto the base of the jig temporarily to register against the first end cut of each frame? If you cut the first frame against the block and sneak up on the length dimension for the first one, and don't move the table afterward, the other frames fitted in the jig and pushed up to the block and cut at same settings will be same length. (all of them right, or all of them wrong - don't ask me how I know that :Lol:)

You probably need to break the block's glue joint and move it for the opposite hand frames, but it could save some moves / measurement. Hope it helps. Back to my shop now! (impulse engine only today, 0 warp factor) :cheers:

PS how are the shop elves coping with the wheelbarrows of brass swarf?  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 28, 2021, 09:05:30 PM
Just a thought Chris - Could you glue a block onto the base of the jig temporarily to register against the first end cut of each frame? If you cut the first frame against the block and sneak up on the length dimension for the first one, and don't move the table afterward, the other frames fitted in the jig and pushed up to the block and cut at same settings will be same length. (all of them right, or all of them wrong - don't ask me how I know that :Lol: )

You probably need to break the block's glue joint and move it for the opposite hand frames, but it could save some moves / measurement. Hope it helps. Back to my shop now! (impulse engine only today, 0 warp factor) :cheers:

PS how are the shop elves coping with the wheelbarrows of brass swarf?  :Lol:
There is a screw for the rails to register against for the tenon cuts. I removed that for the overall-length cuts since the end mill has to cover that whole face. The rails are too long to put a screw or block at the other end, and that is how I am sliding in the blanks anyway. Since the last post I have finished cutting them all to length, just needed to make an initial cut on the second end, stop and measure, and see how much farther to advance the cut to finish.

The elves are dealing with it fine so far, since it is just accumulating in the seperator next to the shop vac! Its later on when they have to backpack it all outside that the air turns blue...!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 28, 2021, 09:41:19 PM
After finishing up the trimming to overall length, with the compound angles on both ends of the rails,
(https://i.postimg.cc/3w04SVSk/IMG-9144.jpg)
I've started in on the tenon cuts. For these, there is a screw at the near end to act as a stop when putting in the rail, which will both make it easy to get the length of the cut horizontally repeatable, but it also is important for getting the depth vertically the same. Since the rails are at an angle in both directions, if one rail goes farther out from the cradle than another, it would get a different vertical amount of cutting. This way, its possible to get a repeatable placement for all four cuts on each end of the rails.
(https://i.postimg.cc/76vCp9dm/IMG-9146.jpg)
I'll go through the first cut for each rail, then set up for the second cut. Even though there are four rails in each set, there are actually only two combinations of the angles in each set, the other two can be cut the same then flipped end for end - possible since the pads at top and bottom will be both parallel and the same thickness.

Good work to send the shop elves off to the movies for, less distractions for me that way!   :Lol:   Have to see if there is a marathon Santa movie showing on... They love to heckle the workshop scenes!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on March 28, 2021, 10:27:08 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Flyboy Jim on March 29, 2021, 02:51:25 AM
Looking Good Chris.

Once you master tenons, you can then start cutting dovetails in brass.  :lolb:

Jim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 29, 2021, 03:09:06 AM
Looking Good Chris.

Once you master tenons, you can then start cutting dovetails in brass.  :lolb:

Jim


I've done sliding dovetails in Cherry and Mahogany. The chisels are tough to get through brass though!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 29, 2021, 05:39:37 PM
Continued on with milling the sides of the tenons....
(https://i.postimg.cc/CKnk2yW9/IMG-9148.jpg)
till both sides were done at each end of all the rails
(https://i.postimg.cc/Y9cYKn70/IMG-9149.jpg)
Now have set the jig vertically to start on the other sides, same basic setup and moves, half have a shim under the right end, rest have a shim under the left end, and half will be done with the jig in this position, rest with the jig flipped over to other angle.
(https://i.postimg.cc/KznLZPcN/IMG-9150.jpg)
So far so good, the third side has lined up with the ends of the other two...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 29, 2021, 09:59:50 PM
A few more shop sessions this afternoon, got the rest of the tenons cut on the lower frame rails:
(https://i.postimg.cc/BvfxPSYN/IMG-9151.jpg)
Here is the pile of rails, ready to make the pads for the top/bottom of each that let them bolt to the bases and the engine bases up above:
(https://i.postimg.cc/fb7YxG1s/IMG-9152.jpg)
They still need a little thickness trimming, the dimension in one direction is just under 1/2".  I did take a bar of 3/8" x 5/8" stock and cut it into segments for the pads - the cut depth stop on the bandsaw comes in handy for these kinds of cuts.

Um, the shop elves found the stack of pad blanks, and think that they have found my stash of gold bars. Don't have the heart to tell them its just brass, will wait till tomorrow - let them celebrate tonight!  They'll probably put on the tape of Kelly's Heroes and act out the scenes with them....

(https://i.postimg.cc/NMgmbNwH/IMG-9153.jpg)
The pads will get rectangular mortise holes milled in them to take the tenons on the rails. Playing with the idea of making a little adapter plate for the broach, to do the square inside corners. Either that or file the drilled holes to square off the corners.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on March 29, 2021, 10:11:32 PM
That's a lot of frame pieces there, Chris!  And you get to do 2x the number of those end caps   :popcorn:

Pretty fun to watch you work :)

And hey - I just read my latest Live Steam mag (yeah, I'm a few weeks behind!) and really enjoyed your first Shop Elf Corner installment on nickel plating.   Great work on that too. Looking forward to reading more instalments of the shop elf corner :ThumbsUp: :)

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 29, 2021, 10:15:15 PM
That's a lot of frame pieces there, Chris!  And you get to do 2x the number of those end caps   :popcorn:

Pretty fun to watch you work :)

And hey - I just read my latest Live Steam mag (yeah, I'm a few weeks behind!) and really enjoyed your first Shop Elf Corner installment on nickel plating.   Great work on that too. Looking forward to reading more instalments of the shop elf corner :ThumbsUp: :)

Kim
Thanks Kim!  Later on in the build are similar frames up between the engine bed and the cylinders, at least those are only angled in one direction, but they have all the crossheads and valve rod attachment points built into them too.

Glad you liked the article, next issue should have one on taper locks, after that will be some intermittant articles/plans on the Mann truck build. Towards the end of the year the big article on the Marion steam shovel should start....   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on March 29, 2021, 10:36:25 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

The solid gold brass frame parts are looking great!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 29, 2021, 11:57:15 PM
Well, I was not expecting that to work out so easy!  I was looking ahead a little to how I was going to make the mortises in the pads to take the rectangular tenons from the frame rails. Normally, when making a couple like that, I would just drill/mill the outline and file the corners square. But, in this case, there are 24 pads to make, four corners per, then do it again for the upper frames.... Lots of filing.


Last year I had picked up an arbor press and a small broaching set for the gears on the Mann truck. Yesterday had the idea of using the broaching cutter to do the squared corners, and figured that I would have to make a special guide to start in a narrow slot rather than the usual round hole.  This evening, to test that out, I grabbed a scrap bit of brass and drew the outline of the mortise needed, and milled a slot at either end with a 1/8" end mill.

Upon testing that with the 1/8" wide broach, it turned out that the depth of the broach worked out perfectly, I could run it through once with the slot as cut, then add the wedge to finish it off, and both wedges to do the other end of the slot. Instant (nearly) two squared corners! At most would take slight filing to get a good fit on the tenon.

(https://i.postimg.cc/cHQQ0rQf/IMG-9154.jpg)
In the photo, the slot on the left is as- milled, the one on the right is after broaching. All I'd need to do then is to make a couple more passes to connect the slots and leave the rectangle. Hmmmm!  This will work out perfect for making the mortises in the pads!
 :pinkelephant:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: gary.a.ayres on March 30, 2021, 12:03:08 AM
All that glitters...

At least it's Elves that you have in your shop. They appreciate fine craftsmanship, but aren't highly motivated by gold for its own sake.

Imagine you had Dwarves, and how peeved they would be when they realised it was just brass! Different story entirely. Doesn't bear thinking about.

This is golden though. Will be great to see it coming together...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 30, 2021, 12:05:53 AM
All that glitters...

This is golden though. Will be great to see it coming together...
I'll take dumb luck any day. Many years ago I named my first boat (a small Whitehall row/sailboat)  Dumb Luck. 
Goes well with the phrase, Take It Easy, But Take It!
 :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: gary.a.ayres on March 30, 2021, 12:08:42 AM
Aha... your reply crossed with my modification.

Dumb Luck is good. But is it luck, or perhaps something else...?
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 30, 2021, 09:04:17 PM
Today got a start on the lower frame end pads, making them as mentioned in yesterdays post, milling the two slots at the ends of the mortise opening, and will square the ends of the slots with the broach.
(https://i.postimg.cc/1tB04Sc8/IMG-9155.jpg)
After a few sessions of milling (time out for lunch, some reading out on the front porch once it warmed up enough after the snow yesterday), got the pile of pads milled, ready for the broach.
(https://i.postimg.cc/26rFzyvp/IMG-9156.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: gary.a.ayres on March 30, 2021, 09:44:36 PM
Wow - it just keeps on coming!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 30, 2021, 11:40:21 PM
That's a lot of frame pieces there, Chris!  And you get to do 2x the number of those end caps   :popcorn:

Pretty fun to watch you work :)

And hey - I just read my latest Live Steam mag (yeah, I'm a few weeks behind!) and really enjoyed your first Shop Elf Corner installment on nickel plating.   Great work on that too. Looking forward to reading more instalments of the shop elf corner :ThumbsUp: :)

Kim
Probably good that you are running a little behind on reading your Live Steam issues, was talking with the editor and he mentioned that the next issue will be out slightly late, the design department got backed up and are running behind a little (they do a number of different magazines). No problems, just a little behind.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on March 31, 2021, 05:40:44 AM
Good to know!  Now I have an excuse for my slow uptake on my periodicals! :)
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 31, 2021, 04:43:11 PM
This morning I finished broaching all the holes, so the inside corners are all square. Then started milling out the remaining chunk in the middle of the mortises. The tenons project out square to the base, at a compound angle to the rails, so the mortises are vertical, no compound angles to worry about with them.

(https://i.postimg.cc/vBf0LJQt/IMG-9158.jpg)
The pads are all the same, top and bottom too, they just get flipped over for the different rail ends. Here are the first four pads with the mortises cut and fitted to the rails (just a couple swipes of the file needed in a couple places).
(https://i.postimg.cc/T1cQBn5y/IMG-9163.jpg)
As you can see at the bottom of the photo, the tenons dont come all the way through the pads, yet. The pads will be cut thinner and narrower to final dimension, and they also get their top edges chamdfered, and holes drilled in the corners for the mounting screws. To fasten them all together, I am thinking that the joints will get some loctite and be cross pinned. Some epoxy putty will be used to form fillets in the inside corners to match the castings.
Here are the first two rails set in place on the base plates to give an idea of where its all going. There are a couple of the pads on the lower ones to keep them from tiping over, they almost balance upright but not quite!
(https://i.postimg.cc/d3F4W53P/IMG-9160.jpg)
Pads for two rails down, 10 more sets to go!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on March 31, 2021, 05:07:09 PM
Looks like the engine designer has a leg to stand on, now!   :Lol:  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 31, 2021, 05:09:33 PM
Looks like the engine designer has a leg to stand on, now!   :Lol: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
The elves have a pair of really tall crutches too!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: gary.a.ayres on March 31, 2021, 05:38:27 PM
An engine is beginning to suggest itself...

 :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: scc on March 31, 2021, 09:04:57 PM
 :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :cheers:              Terry
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on March 31, 2021, 09:21:24 PM
Very neat, as always, Chris!

So, all this angled mortise & tenon joinery - is this how it was done in the original?  Or is this just how you're fabricating something that was cast as a single piece?

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 31, 2021, 09:27:25 PM
Very neat, as always, Chris!

So, all this angled mortise & tenon joinery - is this how it was done in the original?  Or is this just how you're fabricating something that was cast as a single piece?

Kim
On the original, the rails were hollow, and cast as one piece with the pads/tapers at the ends. Massive castings, just making and positioning the cores must have been a lot of work. Same with the base plates, those were one piece castings, according to the plans. Making the rails from one piece with the pads would have needed much larger bar stock, much wider and thicker, to get the pads and the angles shaped in - piecing it up for the model is much more practical for me.  The plans are a lot of fun to look through, they have notes on common patterns that made parts for different machines, where they just moved certain add-on bits of the mold.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on March 31, 2021, 09:32:32 PM
Very neat, as always, Chris!

So, all this angled mortise & tenon joinery - is this how it was done in the original?  Or is this just how you're fabricating something that was cast as a single piece?

Kim
On the original, the rails were hollow, and cast as one piece with the pads/tapers at the ends. Massive castings, just making and positioning the cores must have been a lot of work. Same with the base plates, those were one piece castings, according to the plans. Making the rails from one piece with the pads would have needed much larger bar stock, much wider and thicker, to get the pads and the angles shaped in - piecing it up for the model is much more practical for me.  The plans are a lot of fun to look through, they have notes on common patterns that made parts for different machines, where they just moved certain add-on bits of the mold.


OK, that's kinda what I thought, but then I started getting lost in the pretty joinery and just had to ask.  Doesn't take anything away from the cool square-cornered mortises you're doing - that is super cool, as is the angled Tenon jig.    :ThumbsUp:

The plans must be fascinating!  It is so great that you were able to get a set of the original plans! That must have been quite the thrill to get those!
Kim

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 31, 2021, 09:34:50 PM
Very neat, as always, Chris!

So, all this angled mortise & tenon joinery - is this how it was done in the original?  Or is this just how you're fabricating something that was cast as a single piece?

Kim
On the original, the rails were hollow, and cast as one piece with the pads/tapers at the ends. Massive castings, just making and positioning the cores must have been a lot of work. Same with the base plates, those were one piece castings, according to the plans. Making the rails from one piece with the pads would have needed much larger bar stock, much wider and thicker, to get the pads and the angles shaped in - piecing it up for the model is much more practical for me.  The plans are a lot of fun to look through, they have notes on common patterns that made parts for different machines, where they just moved certain add-on bits of the mold.


OK, that's kinda what I thought, but then I started getting lost in the pretty joinery and just had to ask.  Doesn't take anything away from the cool square-cornered mortises you're doing - that is super cool, as is the angled Tenon jig.    :ThumbsUp:

The plans must be fascinating!  It is so great that you were able to get a set of the original plans! That must have been quite the thrill to get those!
Kim
I was stunned that he had found them in the building, and again that he let me have a copy of the scans - that is a very rare thing to get hold of. After the model is done, and assuming they get back to doing the annual tours, I'll have to take it over there for demos at the tour days, got to repay the favor!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on March 31, 2021, 10:52:35 PM
For casting the original full size hollow frame cores, I would expect that many chaplets would be needed along each core to support them, both under the core and at the sides. The moulders probably used several individual cores to be able to make shorter ones, easier to lift and less prone to breakage. (and they would likely put Shaky the jittery handed moulder on pattern cleaning or counting flasks, the day they were moulding frames.)  :Lol:

Chaplets are still available in many shapes and sizes. Link to one local firm carrying them is below. You can often see the residual imprint of one face of the chaplet where it didn't melt right into the casting if you look at big or long castings on old engines.

http://smelko.com/?page_id=395

 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 31, 2021, 10:58:34 PM
For casting the original full size hollow frame cores, I would expect that many chaplets would be needed along each core to support them, both under the core and at the sides. The moulders probably used several individual cores to be able to make shorter ones, easier to lift and less prone to breakage. (and they would likely put Shaky the jittery handed moulder on pattern cleaning or counting flasks, the day they were moulding frames.)  :Lol:

Chaplets are still available in many shapes and sizes. Link to one local firm carrying them is below. You can often see the residual imprint of one face of the chaplet where it didn't melt right into the casting if you look at big or long castings on old engines.

http://smelko.com/?page_id=395 (http://smelko.com/?page_id=395)

 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
What is a chaplet and how is it used? Never heard that term before. Chiclet, yes, Chaplet, no.   :noidea:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steamer on March 31, 2021, 10:59:53 PM
This is going to be an epic build!
 :popcorn:
Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 31, 2021, 11:06:59 PM
This is going to be an epic build!
 :popcorn:
Dave
Thanks Dave! 


For some of the smaller detail bits, I may be adding 3D printed parts - have one of the new Prusa Mk3 Original printers coming in a few days, seems like the technology, while still evolving, has gotten stable enough for me to dip my toe in that end of the pool. Handy for this kind of model, and will let me make some of the parts for the RC boats that have required making fiberglass/silicone molds for in the past. The vast majority of this engine will still be machined metal parts though!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Don1966 on April 01, 2021, 03:19:52 AM
Yep doing it proud Dog...... :Love:



 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on April 01, 2021, 03:33:11 AM
For casting the original full size hollow frame cores, I would expect that many chaplets would be needed along each core to support them, both under the core and at the sides. The moulders probably used several individual cores to be able to make shorter ones, easier to lift and less prone to breakage. (and they would likely put Shaky the jittery handed moulder on pattern cleaning or counting flasks, the day they were moulding frames.)  :Lol:

Chaplets are still available in many shapes and sizes. Link to one local firm carrying them is below. You can often see the residual imprint of one face of the chaplet where it didn't melt right into the casting if you look at big or long castings on old engines.

http://smelko.com/?page_id=395 (http://smelko.com/?page_id=395)

 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
What is a chaplet and how is it used? Never heard that term before. Chiclet, yes, Chaplet, no.   :noidea:

Hi Chris, Chaplets work by holding cores in sand moulds up where a core is too long and thin to just be supported at the ends, or too heavy for support at just one end. If you visualize the sand mould for the engine frame column, it would be a long rectangular trough in the sand. The core for the hollow centre would need to be supported along its' length in this trough. If there were raised areas of sand forming openings along the frame, the raised areas could support the core. But if no openings were possible for whatever strength or functional reasons, the core would have to be supported by chaplets. Think of a bunch of chaplets as doing the same job as a bunch of machinist jacks would if placed between the core and the mould face, the jacks would support the core leaving a wall gap for the iron. The iron flows in around the chaplets and melts them partly, and the chaplets become embedded permanently in the casting. After the iron solidifies the sand core is broken out of the centre of the frame casting.

Round faced chaplets as shown in the link in my original post mentioning chaplets could make excellent bar stools for shop elves though, so unless you really need them for a casting project , best to not have any on hand or the shop elves will take a seat and crack open some Elfensteiner stubbies......... :atcomputer: :shrug:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 01, 2021, 04:29:45 AM
Thanks for the explanation CNR, that makes sense now. I suppose they could make them out of whatever material they are casting to blend in better too. Neat solution!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 01, 2021, 08:04:48 PM
Got the mortises cut in all the end pads:
(https://i.postimg.cc/pLHhYnLg/IMG-9164.jpg)
so the next step is to finish shaping the pads. Starting with the length - am using the mortise as a reference point for the outer size, since its important for the rail to be the right distance in from the base and top platform. Starting with one end, using a 1/4" tool bit blank on top of the vise to index from.

(https://i.postimg.cc/mgycd2ch/IMG-9165.jpg)
This way I could set the cutter height once, and cycle through all the parts. After that end is done for all the pads, will reset for the other three sides in turn. The pads also will get chamfered on the top edge, drilled for the mounting bolts, and the rails need to be thinned slightly in one dimension (with stress relief done first), and the mounting holes for the intermediate platform drilled through. So, lots to do on these lower frames still!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on April 01, 2021, 08:37:04 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on April 01, 2021, 11:15:37 PM
Sounds like a very repeatable process!  Which is good, because you'll have to repeat it a LOT of time!  :insane:
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 02, 2021, 06:30:43 PM
Sounds like a very repeatable process!  Which is good, because you'll have to repeat it a LOT of time!  :insane:
Kim
Jigs are well worth it for mass produced parts!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 02, 2021, 06:37:03 PM
Today saw the pads taken down to thickness, then set up for drilling the holes in the corners. These holes have to match the holes in the base plates, and be aligned such that the rails come out in the right place. So, bunch of time with the plans and 3D model figuring out the offsets and double checking them, then made a little block that was screwed and loctited to the bottom of the drill guide that I made to drill the base plate holes. Here it is, with one of the pads set over it:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Kj0SHZp2/IMG-9167.jpg)
And flipped over to drill through the guide holes:

(https://i.postimg.cc/WzNc8Dn8/IMG-9166.jpg)
This will take care of the holes in the bottom pads - the top pads have a different pattern, so I need to make a drill guide plate for them too.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Don1966 on April 02, 2021, 09:58:21 PM
 :ThumbsUp:


‘ :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 03, 2021, 01:14:52 AM
:ThumbsUp:


‘ :cheers:
Don


Cheers Don!  These parts are getting lots of location marks and numbers to keep them all oriented right.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Roger B on April 04, 2021, 11:31:53 AM
Lots of interesting Fabrication  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp:  :wine1:  :wine1:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 04, 2021, 05:50:16 PM
Back in the shop this morning, more drilling of the mount holes in the bottom frame pads. Before moving on to the top pad holes, I bolted a set of rails to the base plates for a quick double-check set of measurements (all good so far)
(https://i.postimg.cc/3wb2fLkk/IMG-9168.jpg)
So, started in drilling the holes in the top pads too. After that I need to pause and figure out the order of doing things for finishing the shaping on the pads and getting them permenantly attached to the rails.

The other new toy, I mean shop tool, that arrived a few days ago is my new 3D printer (Prusa Original Mk3+) . Got it assembled the last couple of days, and tested out with their sample prints. All good once I got the two fan plugs in the right places (the self-test caught that fortunately). Then played around with the slicing software to figure out how to get obkects from Fusion over to be printed. I started out with one of the big water intake pipe elbows (its about 60 degrees of turn) since it has overhangs and such, which take extra supports to print. Here is the print underway:
(https://i.postimg.cc/3x1Xmr7C/IMG-9169.jpg)
and finished, ready to remove from the printer and snap off the scaffolding that it uses to hold the overhang (since it cant start the bottom of that flange in mid-air). That pipe is about two inches tall.

(https://i.postimg.cc/7LLgVvZv/IMG-9173.jpg)
Came out pretty good, a little light sanding/filling to get rid of the slight texture on the curved surface. I'm thinking of using printed parts for things like this, that would be really tough to machine without CNC - some of the pipes are round, some oval, as well as for some of the smaller detail parts. Main use will be with the RC model submarines.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Roger B on April 04, 2021, 05:55:01 PM
I am maybe a Luddite about the new technologies (or maybe I really just don't have the time ATM) but that to me is impressive  :praise2:  :praise2:  :wine1:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 04, 2021, 06:06:17 PM
I am maybe a Luddite about the new technologies (or maybe I really just don't have the time ATM) but that to me is impressive  :praise2: :praise2: :wine1:
Me too in some ways. For decades I worked on computers all day, and didn't want one in the house so I could get away from the keyboard!  The printers have come a long way, much better out of the box, and for the current projects I thought I would try one.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: 90LX_Notch on April 04, 2021, 06:29:36 PM
I’ve been following along in the shadows Chris.  Now that I have upgraded my technology I can come out into the light and post.  Excellent work as usual. 

-Bob
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 04, 2021, 07:12:07 PM
I’ve been following along in the shadows Chris.  Now that I have upgraded my technology I can come out into the light and post.  Excellent work as usual. 

-Bob
Thanks Bob, great to have you along for the ride. Hope you brought snacks, its going to be a long trip!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Admiral_dk on April 04, 2021, 09:23:44 PM
Congratulations on your new tool  :ThumbsUp:

I got a similar one - or more correct - I had the same model until they were able to ship the MMU (enables me to use five different plastics / colours etc.) on the same print. I had a few mishaps with mine - one turned out to be a screw that wasn't torqued hard enough, so it came loose and the printing head as well a result  :-[
This was discovered during the upgrade -> so it worked nicely for some time again (except with flexibles  >:( ) until it couldn't be persuaded to load the filaments ....  :Mad:   :cussing:
I can for that reason highly recommend that you add an SMD LED on the Filament sensor on top off the printing head, that shows if the sensor thinks that the Filament is loaded - this has shown me a few times that the sensor needs to be adjusted => everything works very nicely again  :)
There is a nice little article on how to do so on the Prusa site.

Still following your big build  :popcorn:    :cheers:

Per
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 04, 2021, 09:36:45 PM
Congratulations on your new tool  :ThumbsUp:

I got a similar one - or more correct - I had the same model until they were able to ship the MMU (enables me to use five different plastics / colours etc.) on the same print. I had a few mishaps with mine - one turned out to be a screw that wasn't torqued hard enough, so it came loose and the printing head as well a result  :-[
This was discovered during the upgrade -> so it worked nicely for some time again (except with flexibles  >:( ) until it couldn't be persuaded to load the filaments ....  :Mad:   :cussing:
I can for that reason highly recommend that you add an SMD LED on the Filament sensor on top off the printing head, that shows if the sensor thinks that the Filament is loaded - this has shown me a few times that the sensor needs to be adjusted => everything works very nicely again  :)
There is a nice little article on how to do so on the Prusa site.

Still following your big build  :popcorn:    :cheers:

Per
I think they changed the loading in that newest upgrade (which mine has from factory), so that it uses the led/sensor in the filament path already. Or are you talking about an external indicator? I couldnt find the article you mentioned, can you post the link? They have a LOT of articles!When you change colors, I assume it stops the print and prompts you for the new color? I have not gotten anywhere near that level yet!
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 04, 2021, 09:40:34 PM
Oh, and I figured out what the whirring sounds I heard late last night were from - the shop elves must have been reading the manual, and learned how to print out a new pet from the sample prints they include files for....
(https://i.postimg.cc/15w2xd1V/IMG-9174.jpg)
Gonna have to lock up THAT power cord too...   :facepalm2:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Admiral_dk on April 04, 2021, 10:17:56 PM
Hi Chris

No it changes between five different Filaments automatically - se the rightmost here :
https://www.prusa3d.com/ (https://www.prusa3d.com/)
It does mean that it creates a 'Waste Tower' when it changes filament .... in order to purge the printing head.

I have just discovered that I can't even find my own posts on the Prusa user forum now  :shrug:
But I was also reminded that the Filament sensor isn't the same if you got the MMU or not ....
The LED I'm talking about is not really external, as you have to drill a 2mm. hole in the top lid over the printing head, to see it, but it, + a resistor or two, is put on top of the existing PCB, so you get a visible indication of the state that the MCU is reading (but doesn't show - not even LIVE if you ask it to do so in the LCD).
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 04, 2021, 10:28:57 PM
Hi Chris

No it changes between five different Filaments automatically - se the rightmost here :
https://www.prusa3d.com/ (https://www.prusa3d.com/)
It does mean that it creates a 'Waste Tower' when it changes filament .... in order to purge the printing head.

I have just discovered that I can't even find my own posts on the Prusa user forum now  :shrug:
But I was also reminded that the Filament sensor isn't the same if you got the MMU or not ....
The LED I'm talking about is not really external, as you have to drill a 2mm. hole in the top lid over the printing head, to see it, but it, + a resistor or two, is put on top of the existing PCB, so you get a visible indication of the state that the MCU is reading (but doesn't show - not even LIVE if you ask it to do so in the LCD).
Wow - thats quite a mechanism to feed the different colors like that!


With just printing one color at a time, and I'll mainly be using just gray/silver and painting, having the LED is not that important, since the first thing it does at the start is lay down a stripe to ensure the head is purged of old material and I will see if that does not work. So far I am pretty happy with the unit, the instruction manual for assembly was the best I've ever seen, only a couple places where it needed a clearer picture or some such. The instructions for the slicer could use a little more work to explain the options and why you would use them, and some more basic walkthroughs, but thats a common issue with any complex device.

For now, I've been printing off some of the pipe elbows/y's, start one up and go play in the shop with the proper fun tools!   :LittleDevil:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 04, 2021, 10:45:31 PM
I was going through my pictures of the pump station to figure out what went through a particular bolt hole in one of the parts, and noticed this one - a couple of the wrenches sitting on the platform by the engine beds. The bigger one has a lifting eye on it, they must need to suspend it to lift the thing up to the bolts!

(https://i.postimg.cc/ZqxJTRk3/DSC-7619.jpg)

Fun what is lurking in the photos that were not noticed at the time!

Oh, and above the wrench, you can see some writing on the vertical frame rail - that is the casting part number, matches up with the numbers on the blueprints.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on April 05, 2021, 01:03:00 AM
The larger item [open ended spanner] by it's length would be termed as a Flogging Spanner, however these are usually a form of a Ring Spanner...[I suspect the hole in the short shank of the large open ender was for mounting the spanner on a Shadow Tool Board]

Very dangerous placing a reasonably wide jawed open ended spanner on a nut & having a second person use the 28lb hammer to flog the nut up......but that is what happened  :shrug:

In this enlightened day and age, we use sockets with hydraulic torque multipliers to accurate and safely tension fastners, or even better hydraulic bolt stretching devices so the need for impact is not needed......just stretch, rotate the nut until engaged on the flat surface & release the induced tension [stretch] in the bolt & all done  :ThumbsUp:     

The spanner painted red , we called a Bent Banana or S handled spanner  ...used of course for inverting and gaining double the engagement orientations....

Oh the joys of such work  :old: ....yes, back then...we had a Fitters Mate [assistant] to carry all of the heavy tools..sometimes on a wheel barrow or trolley....such a large spanner must never be left on the machine after work..[lazy, bad house keeping] could also have been a safety issue .....with much  :Director: from the Engineer or Foreman for allowing it to happen  :cussing:

Derek

PS...for clarification, the other Red Spanner in industry was the oxy-acetelyene
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 05, 2021, 07:57:59 PM
Derek - I'm sure the guys who left the spanners there are long gone, so we'll have to search for a new foreman to yell at them!   :Lol:
I remember a guy down the hall in one of the buildings I worked in that had a huge open end wrench hanging on his office wall (good thing he had a solid back wall in the office) that must have been three feet long, four or five inch opening. Not sure if it was his, or if he just couldn't lift it to get rid of it!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 05, 2021, 08:08:23 PM
Some more progress on the pump level frames. I was thinking about the order of the next steps, and decided to make the plates that connect each pair up at the top to make sure things are lining up correctly.  These plates hold the lower rails, and on top of them there will be the big engine bed castings that connect the pairs and hold the upper engine leve frames that go up to the cylinders. As with the pump base plates, I made up the blanks (6 of them) and drilled one, then used it as a drill guide for the others. The corner holes were all tapped for the bolts from the frame rail end pads.
(https://i.postimg.cc/wBLm5SXX/IMG-9175.jpg)
Still some more tapping to do, but I bolted up one set to see how it all fits. Had one pad where the drill must have angled that needed to be opened up, rest went well. There is a ruler sitting on top, used that to judge the alignment on the top and sides of the plates.
(https://i.postimg.cc/W3VJ5X8Q/IMG-9176.jpg)
I'll get the other plates tapped, then I think the order will be to loctite the tenons on the rails into the mortises on the pads while using the assembly to hold things in alignment. Then, can unbolt the pads top and bottom, and use the milling jig to hold the rails/pads to drill for some cross pins and put the angles on the pads - they get tapered in at the top sort of like the base plates did. With the tapers, holding the pads by themselves will be tricky so waiting till they are attached to the rails will give a place to clamp them. The cross pins will give a good mechanical connection so its not depending just on the loctite - could be lots of force when moving the model around.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on April 05, 2021, 08:43:34 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Admiral_dk on April 05, 2021, 10:09:53 PM
I know it's not an extremely big spanner - but the biggest I have encountered, was in my youth.

I had an afternoon job at the local Authorized VW repair shop - running around with a broom and cleaning the place .... One day I was asked to turque the big Wheel Nut on a Beetle - the one in the centre (not the five small bolts holding the wheel). It was about 1.5m (~6') long and had a 10:1 reduction gear in the middle, in order to torque the Nut to 800Kg/m. - to a degree easy to understand that the Brake drum / Hub, needs to be firmly fixed to the axle .... It still needed me to put most off my weight on top of it + of cause one to press the brake pedal hard at the same time ....
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: simplyloco on April 05, 2021, 10:24:50 PM
I know it's not an extremely big spanner - but the biggest I have encountered, was in my youth.

Me too, I was about ten years old. My late father was a bulldozer driver, big CATS - D8s & D9s, and I used to go to work with him in the school holidays. I remember holding his hip as we both jumped off the track onto a one inch diameter tommy bar some six feet long to remove the nuts on the rear drive sprocket!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 05, 2021, 10:58:09 PM
I know it's not an extremely big spanner - but the biggest I have encountered, was in my youth.

Me too, I was about ten years old. My late father was a bulldozer driver, big CATS - D8s & D9s, and I used to go to work with him in the school holidays. I remember holding his hip as we both jumped off the track onto a one inch diameter tommy bar some six feet long to remove the nuts on the rear drive sprocket!
Only time I needed to jump on the bar for a lug nut was on my own car, an old Bobcat which was a Pinto with delusions of grandeur - fortunately mine was after (they claimed) they fixed the flaming gas tank issue!  One of the lugs was frozen on, tire was flat, car came with one of those silly folding one-arm lug nut wrenches, so a friend and I found a bit of pipe to put on a ratchet handle to break the nut loose. It got it loose, but destroyed the ratchet in the process. It was a Craftsman ratchet handle though, so back to Sears to get it swapped with a brand new one. Those were the days....   :o
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: gary.a.ayres on April 05, 2021, 11:34:29 PM
Looking good!
Will be great to see this develop...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steam guy willy on April 06, 2021, 12:12:05 AM
Hi all. this is one of my spanners !!! and these are the spanners and shadow board that are in the local New Mills pumping station that closed down in 1974 !!! This may be my next project btw.
 willy
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 06, 2021, 12:22:41 AM
The next project possibly being the engine at New Mills, or the shadow board?   :Lol:   And I am not commenting on the name on the spanner....  Nope. Not going to mention that...  :o
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 06, 2021, 12:26:22 AM
Looking good!
Will be great to see this develop...
Thanks Gary - I got the rest of the top plates tapped and test fit on the model. Found one rail that was just slightly short, tilting the top plate a fraction to the side. A bit of thin shim stock under the pad cured that. Also found that I had drilled one of the larger center holes on the wrong edge of the plate (moving too quick with the stack I guess). Drilled the correct one, and am filling the bad one with some JB Quik epoxy. It would only be visible by a shop elf on the lower pump platform looking up under the engine beds, but they LOVE to point out stufff like that and laugh...!
Tomorrow I'll probably get the pads loctited to the rails....
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: gary.a.ayres on April 06, 2021, 12:30:47 AM
but they LOVE to point out stufff like that and laugh...!

Oh, don't they just...!

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 06, 2021, 03:02:39 PM
This morning I made up some little spacer plates to keep the two side pairs of each set the correct distance apart, and glued the mortise and tenon joints together. There is tape at the bottom under each pad to keep any drips inside from glueing the pads to the bases.

(https://i.postimg.cc/BZ1hN8VT/IMG-9177.jpg)
I'll let the loctite set up, then unbolt the pads and cross pin the tenons for extra security.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: gary.a.ayres on April 06, 2021, 03:19:16 PM
Very nice. Starting to get that triple expansion feel about it already...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on April 06, 2021, 05:03:15 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

The name on the big wrench may have been chosen because it was less die work for the tool engraver than "His Royal Highness Richard III"  (just a theory)  :Lol: :shrug:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 06, 2021, 05:05:06 PM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

The name on the big wrench may have been chosen because it was less die work for the tool engraver than "His Royal Highness Richard III"  (just a theory)  :Lol: :shrug:
:Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 06, 2021, 10:05:27 PM
While waiting for the loctite on the frames to cure up (going to wait overnight on that) I couldn't wait to see how the pipework would look. I've been letting the 3D printer crank away on some pipe sections, doing the first couple over again with changes to print settings (lot to learn on that part of things). I started with the water intake pipes, which bring the water in from Lake Erie to the three pump valve housings on each side of the engine. These pipes will go between the lower ends of the frame legs, the output pipes go on the outside of the frame legs and meet at another Y fitting at the other end of the engine. These are all printed in PLA plastic, made in sections like the originals to bolt together. With a lot of bolts. A LOT of them... Here is what the assembly is starting to look like, these are the sections that will bolt to the first check valve housing. Then there will be two more straight sections between the housings. Going to take a while to put in all the fasteners!

(https://i.postimg.cc/cCbdBF4N/IMG-9178.jpg)
Depending on the angle you view them from, they either look nice and smooth, or from the other direction you can see the tiny bumps between the layers. After some reading and consulting with others in the RC submarine group, I did some experimenting and found that giving the outsides a coat of sealer smooths out the bumps - several things work, one that is very simple is some of the varnish I use on the boats, Helmsman Polyurethane Gloss - it flows out smooth, dries quick, and seems to adhere well. Then after that cures, a coat of the spray paint to match the cast iron look.
I could definitely turn the straight sections of the pipe on the lathe and drill the flanges - would take a LOT of metal to do them all. I have no clue how I would do the elbows and Y fittings without CNC. Same with the odd shapes to come on the pump valve housings. The actual pump chamber will be metal with seals to be able to pump water for demos - figure I can run plumbing fittings/pipes inside these plastic ones for the water to flow through, for demo it will be more of a water fountain cycle back into a container, no real pressure involved.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steam guy willy on April 06, 2021, 11:00:09 PM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

The name on the big wrench may have been chosen because it was less die work for the tool engraver than "His Royal Highness Richard III"  (just a theory)  :Lol: :shrug:

Hi that is exactly what I thought !!... :lolb: :lolb: perhaps ....  so ..was the smaller 5' 1" king !! not part of "the firm" ?!!!

Willy
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on April 06, 2021, 11:11:32 PM
Goodness, that is lot of bolts & nut, with many more to come  :facepalm:....must remember the original pipe spools with bends would have been sand cast and the straight spools Spun Cast, but both in steel with rough surface finishes

If you scraped the layers of paint off the original staight spools on the machine, you would probably find a course rotational pitch [similar to course lathe tooling marking] as a result of the spinning in the Spun Cast process

So, don't worry about any such rotational pitch marks on your PLA printed tubes

Derek 
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 06, 2021, 11:16:48 PM
Goodness, that is lot of bolts & nut, with many more to come  :facepalm: ....must remember the original pipe spools with bends would have been sand cast and the straight spools Spun Cast, but both in steel with rough surface finishes

If you scraped the layers of paint off the original staight spools on the machine, you would probably find a course rotational pitch [similar to course lathe tooling marking] as a result of the spinning in the Spun Cast process

So, don't worry about any such rotational pitch marks on your PLA printed tubes

Derek
Had not heard of spun casting on that kind of scale, but it makes sense. Is it a big mold spun around, or more of an extrusion type process? If not a mold, then the flanges would get welded on after? Did that process exist back in early 1900s?

EDIT: did some searching,  :atcomputer:   and saw that the spun casting was invented in 1918, the blueprints on this engine show 1911, so these would have been done on a sand cast method?
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on April 07, 2021, 05:34:58 AM
Wow, Chris, those pipe sections look great!

And what size are those fasteners you're using? 2-56?  or smaller?

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on April 07, 2021, 11:30:17 AM
Sorry....the actual vintage of the machine eluded me......[right or wrong, were were taught that this 'Spun Cast' process was progressed in the early 1920's in England after the secrets of the process  :zap: were acquired by deception from Germany? ]

If we are talking 1911+, obviously the straight pipe spools would have been sand cast, complete with the flanges ready for cleanup machining & flange bolt patterns drilled by Horizontal Boring machines

The surface finish would again be rough.........

Centrifically cast , or as originally termed as Spun Cast  pipe spools were made in semi continuous length, however dependent on the volume/tonnage of the Melt. Their flanges were carbon arc welded to make a one piece spool

Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 07, 2021, 12:26:09 PM
Wow, Chris, those pipe sections look great!

And what size are those fasteners you're using? 2-56?  or smaller?

Kim
The pipe fasteners are 2-56, with small-pattern scale nuts with 1/8" across flats and thicker than normal ones, give a good scaled look. Got them at Fastener Express, just ordered more since I am going through them quick. Also have some 1-72 and 0-80 fasteners for the smaller stuff to come later. Some of the bigger base fasteners are 4-40. The size of the fasteners was one of the things I had to juggle when deciding on the scale for the model.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 07, 2021, 12:28:46 PM
Sorry....the actual vintage of the machine eluded me......[right or wrong, were were taught that this 'Spun Cast' process was progressed in the early 1920's in England after the secrets of the process  :zap: were acquired by deception from Germany? ]

If we are talking 1911+, obviously the straight pipe spools would have been sand cast, complete with the flanges ready for cleanup machining & flange bolt patterns drilled by Horizontal Boring machines

The surface finish would again be rough.........

Centrifically cast , or as originally termed as Spun Cast  pipe spools were made in semi continuous length, however dependent on the volume/tonnage of the Melt. Their flanges were carbon arc welded to make a one piece spool

Derek
That was a time with the metal technology changing quickly, both in casting and in welding. I was surprised in that one photo that the casting part number was still visible and not covered in layers of paint - being indoors all those years really preserved things better than outside like bridge parts.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: ddmckee54 on April 07, 2021, 04:18:31 PM
Chris:

Not to be a noodge or anything, but did you allow for shrinkage when you printed those parts?  If you printed them at the proper dimension, when they cool they will shrink and be undersize.  DAMHIK  You can scale the entire part oversize in your slicer to compensate for this shrinkage.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 07, 2021, 04:34:36 PM
Chris:

Not to be a noodge or anything, but did you allow for shrinkage when you printed those parts?  If you printed them at the proper dimension, when they cool they will shrink and be undersize.  DAMHIK  You can scale the entire part oversize in your slicer to compensate for this shrinkage.

Don
No shrinkage so far on the parts, amount does vary with which material, infill, and layer density.  For these parts, a small amount would not matter, some it does.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: ddmckee54 on April 07, 2021, 08:48:55 PM
Yeah, as the parts get bigger shrinkage becomes more apparent.  I usually scale my prints to about 104%-105%, that usually gets me within 0.25mm of the actual dimension.  With an filament printer, I figure that's good enough for gubmint work.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 07, 2021, 09:57:21 PM
Yeah, as the parts get bigger shrinkage becomes more apparent.  I usually scale my prints to about 104%-105%, that usually gets me within 0.25mm of the actual dimension.  With an filament printer, I figure that's good enough for gubmint work.

Don
What kind of filiment do you use? So far I am using the PLA that it came with, imagine it probably varies with the material.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 07, 2021, 10:11:37 PM
Not much time in the shop today, this afternoon was the nicest weather so far this year so I went out canoeing with friends, awesome day out! Eagles fishing out of the trees, Bufflehead ducks migrating through, various land critters swimming around, turtles sunbathing - everyone was out!

I did get the frames unbolted from the base and the tape removed - glad I put the tape down to keep the loctite from sticking the frames to the base, a couple of the bits of tape had spots where the loctite had dripped down inside the mortises.
(https://i.postimg.cc/0yFxMspf/IMG-9179.jpg)
Got the first pair unbolted from the top plates and started drilling for the cross pins - thats as far as I got, will drill the rest tomorrow morning, the afternoon looks like even better weather so outside I go!
(https://i.postimg.cc/g0hp3TsP/IMG-9180.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: ddmckee54 on April 07, 2021, 10:35:24 PM
What kind of filiment do you use? So far I am using the PLA that it came with, imagine it probably varies with the material.

I use PLA because I can tolerate the smell, my printer is in my living room.  I used to shop around for whatever filament was the cheapest, but I found that if you want to keep getting the same color filament you need to pick a reliable company and stick with them.

I'm trying to find a close match to the Bruder red and yellow colors for a couple of RC construction equipment conversions that I've got underway.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Don1966 on April 07, 2021, 10:50:26 PM
Awwwww your doing it proud Dog. You still amaze me with your jigs and setups. It’s a joy to see them in action. Love the 3 D print outs...  :Love:



 :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 09, 2021, 09:51:24 PM
Back on the Holly model today, got the rest of the cross-pin holes drilled through the pads and frame rails, and loctited in brass pins in all of them. After letting that set up for a little while, started in shaping the pad sides. On one side the pad goes flush with the rail, at the same angle the rail is. That part was simple, clamp the rails in the mill vise and set the end mill to the height of the rail, and a couple passes to trim them even.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZqbnDxDg/IMG-9232.jpg)
The opposite side of each stays wider than the rail, but gets a slight angle along the upper 2/3rds of the side. For this, I got out the frame rail jig again, and set it at the angle in the vise. Then rain each end through to cut the sloped section. The jig has two positions for the cradles, each was used to get all the sides done.
(https://i.postimg.cc/fb8y4SGb/IMG-9233.jpg)
The ends of the pads get a slightly steeper angle on them, also about 2/3rds of the height of the pad. For this, set the jig up vertical, and tipped to give the angle (in this case just 4.7 degrees).
(https://i.postimg.cc/V656zLwW/IMG-9236.jpg)
So, once all the pad feet were shaped, it was time to fill in the 'ankles' above them. On the originals they were all cast in one piece with the rails, but for the model they are built up. Rather than put in a chunk of metal and attempt to mill the curve in, I tried using some JB Steel Stik epoxy putty. First time I've tried it - seems to work out okay. It comes as a stick with one part of the epoxy in the core, the other part wrapped around the outside. You cut off the amount you want from the end (I used a fresh exacto knife, the putty is pretty soft so it needs a sharp blade to avoid smooshing it). Then knead the parts together, and stick to the part:
(https://i.postimg.cc/853CcQPQ/IMG-9237.jpg)
I did both ends of four of the frame rails, and left them for a couple hours to harden up and see how the stuff shapes. On the package it says you have 3 to 5 minutes before it sets - in practice I got maybe a minute before it started to stiffen up and would not stick/shape well. So, learned to cut off about 1/8" at a time from the stick and do one end or so at a time.  After it cured up, I first tried a sanding drum in the rotary tool, that worked but clogged up pretty quick, though the clogged surface still cut since the steel powder in the epoxy turned it into an abrasive drum. Then tried a smaller diameter drum bur, that got into the corners better, also clogged but kept cutting. Here is what it looks like:
(https://i.postimg.cc/BbKn1YX8/IMG-9239.jpg)
Working out well, I am going to epoxy up the rest of the frame ends the same way.
After the ends are all shaped, the last thing to do on the frame rails is to drill near the center of the rails for a cross tube that will support the intermediat pump catwalk. Also, need to drill for a larger tube at the base of each rail that takes a large bolt from the floor plate - this one goes through both the pad and rail, and comes out part way up the rail. The four corner bolts connect into the base plates, this fifth bolt went right down into the concrete floor to hold the base plate and the rails down. There are other bolts through the base plates into the floor too.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Craig DeShong on April 10, 2021, 01:04:53 AM
Epoxy makes great fillets,I’ve used it myself.

On another note.... here is another ‘Chris’ model, proceeding at ‘break-neck’ speed,”does the man ever sleep?”. :shrug:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 10, 2021, 01:19:45 AM
Epoxy makes great fillets,I’ve used it myself.

On another note.... here is another ‘Chris’ model, proceeding at ‘break-neck’ speed,”does the man ever sleep?”. :shrug:
Did plenty of sleeping in meetings before retirement!  :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Steamer5 on April 10, 2021, 01:51:16 PM
 :popcornsmall: :popcornsmall: :popcornsmall: :drinking-41:

Looking good Chris

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 10, 2021, 02:56:56 PM
Thanks Kerrin!

This morning got the rest of the epoxy fillets shaped, then drilled and installed the tubes in the center of the frame rails. The other day I thought these were for supporting the platforms between the pumps, but on double-checking they are not near those. They are right in the middle of the rails, and so would be lifting points for moving and installing the frame rails. A number of the other big pieces have similar holes or rings, makes sense that they would cast in ways to connect to the parts for moving them.
(https://i.postimg.cc/xdHgyLN7/IMG-9240.jpg)
The tubes are a little longer than the depth of the rails, and stand proud on both sides.

So, whats left on the rails? I need to drill 1/4" holes through the bases for the floor mount bolts - these will be located using the drill jig made for the pads, and enlarged out to size. I need to work out the setup for that, not sure if there is enough height on the mill column. May do the drilling on the lathe with a vise/jig on the cross slide, or may tip the mill head 90 degrees and come in from the side.Also, there need to be holes drilled/tapped on the top pads to connect the brackets which hold up the catwalk around the engine beds on top of these frame rails.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on April 10, 2021, 05:38:45 PM
That's an interesting detail!   It's those kinds of little things that really make a model more 'real' you know?
Great work, Chris!
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steam guy willy on April 10, 2021, 07:29:11 PM
Hi Chris ...coming along great... :) :)

Willy
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 10, 2021, 07:53:47 PM
Thanks guys, makes a huge difference to work from the original machines blueprints rather than plans already modelled or from photos alone.




Did a little playing with vises and such, got a way figured out to hold the rails to drill the ends for the floor bolts. The mill column is the long one, but not quite enough to just clamp in the vise. The tenon jig is going to get bolted to a block, block bolted to the table edge with the rail hanging off the side. Drill bit has to go in the 3 jaw, regular chuck is too long. Will bolt the drill guide used for the pads back on to each rail for locating the drill, has to be in close alignment to the other holes. Pics tomorrow when I do that, today is another warm one so outside I go!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 11, 2021, 06:28:14 PM
So here is the setup for drilling the large holes in the bottom ends of the frame rails.
(https://i.postimg.cc/j2zgbzd7/IMG-9241.jpg)
Reused the clamping jig from making the tenons, bolted to a 1-2-3 block clamped to the mill table witht he part hanging off the front end of the table for the last bit of height needed.
(https://i.postimg.cc/02sXCHcd/IMG-9242.jpg)
Here are the first couple drilled, one of the left has a length of the round-stock in it, drilled through on the lathe. This will take a long bolt that runs down through the base plate and into the floor.
(https://i.postimg.cc/pV81ztYL/IMG-9243.jpg)
Next step is to drill/tap the holes at the top ends that take the brackets which will support the catwalk platform up at the level of the crankshaft. Remember that all these frames so far are under the engine, around the pump chambers, shown in the red circle in the next picture. The actual engine comes later...!

(https://i.postimg.cc/5yMgn6qN/DSC-7603-Lower.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on April 12, 2021, 02:02:54 PM
Hi Chris, I was wondering how you planned to drill the legs for the floor bolt bosses. The height of the parts and the shallow cutting angle struck me as potentially tricky. You obviously solved it perfectly, the cuts themselves look really great. Did you "drill" with an endmill on an extended shank?

Parts and assembly look great, in any case.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 12, 2021, 02:35:36 PM
Hi Chris, I was wondering how you planned to drill the legs for the floor bolt bosses. The height of the parts and the shallow cutting angle struck me as potentially tricky. You obviously solved it perfectly, the cuts themselves look really great. Did you "drill" with an endmill on an extended shank?

Parts and assembly look great, in any case.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:


Hi CNR,


I drilled them with a normal twist drill held in the 3 jaw, with the drill guide plate to line things up. Going through the pad was fine, past that it was angling out the leg which wanted to pull the drill to the side, so I took that part slow and backed out a few times to minimize that. Worked out well. I thought about an end mill, but it would have to be one with a long cutter section, and on deep plunges they can chatter. The drill worked good though. The pipe inserts were cut and drilled on the lathe then loctited in.


Got started tapping all the 1-72 bracket holes at the tops this morning, 6 per rail... That tapping jig is working out great.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 12, 2021, 03:05:12 PM
Yesterday I got the small holes for the catwalk brackets drilled in the top of the frame rails - one set on the outer end of each pad, one set on the outer side. To line up and support the rail, there is a little machinist jack on the left, out of frame of the picture.
(https://i.postimg.cc/htvPc7jX/IMG-9244.jpg)
This morning have started tapping the holes, 4 rails down, 8 to go...
(https://i.postimg.cc/K8WczvkJ/IMG-9245.jpg)
Once they are all tapped, I will get them re-assembled to the top plates, and then I think its time for some paint on them!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 12, 2021, 07:33:21 PM
While continuing the tapping on the second half of the frame rails, I started to paint the first half of them. Here they are side by side - quite a different appearance:
(https://i.postimg.cc/QM3RbHz6/IMG-9246.jpg)
Here are the sets of holes in the top ends - 3 each on side and back faces for the catwalk brackets:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Jn7vfSMZ/IMG-9247.jpg)
Just put the first light coat on the second batch of rails, and marked out the rest of the shaping/holes to do in the top plates. These plates form part of the engine crankshaft beds. Need to add four more holes for the tops of the pump force chambers to bolt to. There will be pillars coming up from the pump chambers too, that bolt to the bottom of the engine beds. Must have been amazing amounts of  vertical force in the pumping action, everything braces to everything.
(https://i.postimg.cc/jj4BkR0R/IMG-9249.jpg)
Also also, while doing the machining, the 3D printer has been spitting out a couple parts a day for the pump valve housing and pipes. These housings will not have pressure on them in the model, will put some PEX or some such tubing inside with check valves, the pump chambers themselves will be all metal though. These housings would have required a great deal of piecing up to get the shapes, the upper force chambers have more brackets hanging off them too. Aside from the pump housings/pipes, very little on the rest of the model will be printed. Pretty happy with the printer so far, the goofed parts so far were my fault, not its.

(https://i.postimg.cc/1tW2sM3T/IMG-9248.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: gary.a.ayres on April 12, 2021, 11:07:13 PM
Looking good - the painted columns and the 3D printed housings....  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on April 12, 2021, 11:40:50 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 12, 2021, 11:47:34 PM
Pumpframe Forest!
(https://i.postimg.cc/hG22Nrs5/IMG-9250.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/bJdmPtFN/IMG-9251.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on April 13, 2021, 01:01:57 AM
Morning Chris....I have gone back a few pages, but still am not sure what these tubular vertical spool sections as fitted to each of the feet [outboard] are for?

You mention a long mounting bolt?......but each foot appears to be thru-bolted by 4 corner bolts..

Derek

 
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 13, 2021, 01:09:40 AM
Hi Derek - The four corner bolts in each pad extend down through the base plate for that cylinder. The three base plates have long bolts running down into the concrete foundation of the building. These tubes on each frame leg also take long bolts that go through the base plates and deep into the floor. In all, there are 16 bolts tying together the pads and base plate, sixteen tying together the legs and base plate, and eight that tie the legs, base plate, and floor together. That thing aint goin nowhere! Aside from how many tons it all weighs...

I have not put in the long bolts in the tubes yet, need to make the studs for those and also for the corners of the pads, for now am using hex screws. The long ones are larger diameter than the corner ones too.

Chris :cheers:
(https://i.postimg.cc/WzZtJs4c/Holly-Pumping-Engine-Lower-Corner.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on April 13, 2021, 01:23:43 AM
OK....understood..... :facepalm: "Main Frame Anchor Bolts"

Currently, you have the main pump frame base plate bolted down by 8 bolts then the wooden display border....would you consider a larger footprint display board with a 1" plus wide [on each of 4 sides] natural coloured fine concrete floor around the complete display base?

All of the photographs display the concrete floor as the same grey tone as the pump & associated   :hammerbash:

Could look the part  :wine1:

Derek

PS.....just found plain Brickwork floor in  some images..... :Doh:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dave Otto on April 13, 2021, 01:26:40 AM
Enjoying this build Chris!

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 13, 2021, 01:48:48 AM
OK....understood..... :facepalm: "Main Frame Anchor Bolts"

Currently, you have the main pump frame base plate bolted down by 8 bolts then the wooden display border....would you consider a larger footprint display board with a 1" plus wide [on each of 4 sides] natural coloured fine concrete floor around the complete display base?

All of the photographs display the concrete floor as the same grey tone as the pump & associated   :hammerbash:

Could look the part  :wine1:

Derek

PS.....just found plain Brickwork floor in  some images..... :Doh:
The plate bolted to the wood is representing the concrete floor, at least a portion of it. Had to draw the line somewhere, or I could have wound up having to make the whole building. Didn't want to make five engines, so didn't do that!!  :Lol:




Where is the brick floor? Too settled in the recliner to go look on the main PC!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 13, 2021, 01:49:15 AM
Enjoying this build Chris!

Dave
Thanks Dave, me too!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 13, 2021, 01:51:14 AM
OK....understood..... :facepalm: "Main Frame Anchor Bolts"

Currently, you have the main pump frame base plate bolted down by 8 bolts then the wooden display border....would you consider a larger footprint display board with a 1" plus wide [on each of 4 sides] natural coloured fine concrete floor around the complete display base?

All of the photographs display the concrete floor as the same grey tone as the pump & associated   :hammerbash:

Could look the part  :wine1:

Derek

PS.....just found plain Brickwork floor in  some images..... :Doh:
The plate bolted to the wood is representing the concrete floor, at least a portion of it. Had to draw the line somewhere, or I could have wound up having to make the whole building. Didn't want to make five engines, so didn't do that!!  :Lol:




Where is the brick floor? Too settled in the recliner to go look on the main PC!
Are you talking about the red around the modern blue pumps? Thats a new layer on top of the concrete, only in the new pump section.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on April 13, 2021, 02:43:15 AM
There appears to be a bricked in floor area [in yellow] immediately up to the actual Plinth of the unit......[Plinth = Base]

 :ThumbsUp:

Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 13, 2021, 02:57:05 AM
There appears to be a bricked in floor area [in yellow] immediately up to the actual Plinth of the unit......[Plinth = Base]

 :ThumbsUp:

Derek
Well, I'll be dipped in elf-snot!  (ick!)

How many times have I looked at all the photos and never noticed that! Or in person either that day.  Checked the original full-res images, and it does appear to be some sort of square tile, about 1'  or 18" square, where I thought it was just concrete. So much old dirt on it that I never saw that. Good catch!  In the plans they just show poured concrete, so my brain fixed on that. Good catch!   :ThumbsUp:

In some of the full-res pictures I can see where the area between the three cast base plates is raised concrete, and around the edges it is crumbled at the bottom, wonder if they had made changes/repairs at some point? Or if it was the tile around the raised area always. Huh.  Its so much fun to keep finding new details!
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 13, 2021, 02:59:18 AM
Looking through more of the pictures, I keep finding more tools laying about, more of the big wrenches, brooms, the big hooks that would be on the end of chain falls, that sort of thing. Its like 'Wheres Waldo', or 'Wheres Waldo's Wrench' !!!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 13, 2021, 03:10:38 AM
Interesting detail in the corner of one of the pictures in the collection, here you can see the corner of the engine and its base in the upper right, next to that is a channel around the base with a raised area that has the tiles. Makes sense, that gives any spilled water places to be channelled away without getting the whole floor and anything on it wet.
(https://i.postimg.cc/6pZ3jWV7/DSC-7469.jpg)

Another picture was of a stats sheet, showed the weight of each engine as 1100 tons, flywheels are each 30 tons, capacity per engine per day was 30 million gallons, 946.71 gallons per revolution, each engine 1200 horsepower.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on April 13, 2021, 05:34:38 AM
Wow, Chris!  This is an amazing build!  Love the big printed pipe chunks!  And the support frame forest :)

In that last picture you just posted, does it show THREE bolt heads in the end of that support?  Or is that lump in the middle something else?

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on April 13, 2021, 05:51:45 AM
So the 16 x Main Frame Anchor Bolts are just as such...holding down bolts, not any form of alignment tool........those lumps do this

"Or is that lump in the middle something else"?.......mmmm.... the head of a taper dowel pin?  :Doh:

We also see, low angled [low flow] concrete open ditch 'green slime' water drains .... :naughty: which were absolutely common place in all machinery plant floor structures

Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 13, 2021, 12:26:38 PM
Wow, Chris!  This is an amazing build!  Love the big printed pipe chunks!  And the support frame forest :)

In that last picture you just posted, does it show THREE bolt heads in the end of that support?  Or is that lump in the middle something else?

Kim
The middle hole in the end of the pad is for an alignment pin - a lot of the connections have them for lining up the castings on assembly.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 13, 2021, 12:32:00 PM
So the 16 x Main Frame Anchor Bolts are just as such...holding down bolts, not any form of alignment tool........those lumps do this

"Or is that lump in the middle something else"?.......mmmm.... the head of a taper dowel pin?  :Doh:

We also see, low angled [low flow] concrete open ditch 'green slime' water drains .... :naughty: which were absolutely common place in all machinery plant floor structures

Derek
Especially water pumping plants, I would assume! The floor there is below the level of Lake Erie, which is only a few hundred feet away - behind this building was the boiler building (since collapsed in a blizzard), that was next to the lake. Offshore there is an island building out in the lake that houses the intakes for the water pipes coming into the pumps. The balcony that people are standing on in the pictures is at ground level of the area. I would expect that this setup avoids having to pump in water to prime the pumps.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on April 13, 2021, 02:37:41 PM
All OK, & agreed Chris......our job is to sit down & get on with watching the build  :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:   :cheers: ...Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 13, 2021, 03:21:50 PM
All OK, & agreed Chris......our job is to sit down & get on with watching the build  :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:   :cheers: ...Derek
Oh, just watching? I thought you were going to stop by and help shovel out swarf!   :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 13, 2021, 05:02:40 PM
This morning started in on shaping the engine bed end plates, first cut the recesses at the corners and the section on the other side in the middle. The plates were stacked and bolted together so all could be done at once.
(https://i.postimg.cc/63fbtYTN/IMG-9252.jpg)
Then moved the stack to the rotary table to cut the arcs, which are concentric to each other so only one time to center/position the stack.
(https://i.postimg.cc/j288J2zg/IMG-9253.jpg)
Here are the shaped plates:
(https://i.postimg.cc/XqNHJdyB/IMG-9254.jpg)
and showing where they will sit on top of the lower frame rails:
(https://i.postimg.cc/xjgpZxWv/IMG-9255.jpg)
Next step? Think I will make the studs to hold the frame rails to the bases, the corner ones are 2-56, the long ones in the tubes are 4-40.  After that will likely start on the pump chambers that go in the center of each base plate....
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on April 13, 2021, 07:05:46 PM
Thanks Chris & Derek, for answering my question.

And nice RT work on those engine bed plates.  The curviness adds something to the otherwise linear parts :)   :popcorn: :popcorn:

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on April 13, 2021, 07:32:51 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Good luck with making the 9,368 studs!   :Lol::cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 13, 2021, 08:29:20 PM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Good luck with making the 9,368 studs!   :Lol: :cheers:
I shipped the materials to your shop elves with instructions that they should lock you in the closet till you finish making them. I included ten boxes of cookies as bribes for them. Have fun!!
 :ROFL: :lolb: :LittleDevil:
Actually have made the studs needed for the lower ends this afternoon - 48 for the pad corners, 12 for the longer tubes, plus another dozen to get started on the upper ends. Cut them on my little hobby size chop saw with an abrasive wheel, cleaned up the ends on the belt sander, and loctited nuts near one end of each, which are curing now. I'd do more, but my fingers said thats enough and went for a snack!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 13, 2021, 08:32:04 PM
Thanks Chris & Derek, for answering my question.

And nice RT work on those engine bed plates.  The curviness adds something to the otherwise linear parts :)   :popcorn: :popcorn:

Kim
The curves are more functional than decorative, I think - they had to bow out to give room for the big end of the con-rod to come around, and that way they didn't have to make the frames farther apart. No where near as great looking as the big Victorian pumping engines with all the gingerbread and cornice moldings (probably a good thing for me! )
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on April 14, 2021, 12:31:17 AM

"I shipped the materials to your shop elves with instructions that they should lock you in the closet till you finish making them. I included ten boxes of cookies as bribes for them. Have fun!!
 :ROFL: :lolb: :LittleDevil:
Actually have made the studs needed for the lower ends this afternoon - 48 for the pad corners, 12 for the longer tubes, plus another dozen to get started on the upper ends. Cut them on my little hobby size chop saw with an abrasive wheel, cleaned up the ends on the belt sander, and loctited nuts near one end of each, which are curing now. I'd do more, but my fingers said thats enough and went for a snack!"

My wife just let me out of the closet. Shop elves here had a field day but no work done on your 9,368 studs I'm afraid. The shop elves were busy making excuses to my wife for where all the muffled shouts were coming from.  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 14, 2021, 03:15:27 PM
Well, since CNR's elves went and partied in the hot tub rather than make the studs for me, I've been getting more batches made.
(https://i.postimg.cc/XJmJ54Yk/IMG-9261.jpg)
Here is a shot of the difference - on the left the frame rail is held on with hex head screws (not bad) where the right has the studs (better). Also, you can see the larger studs holding the assembly to the floor using the tubes in the frame rails.
(https://i.postimg.cc/0y0bBTV9/IMG-9256.jpg)
The 3D printer has been chugging away in the other room too, have the lower pipe sections as well as the lower valve housings all printed and ready for sanding/painting. Now have started in on the upper pipes and the force chambers, which sit above the valve housings - the force chambers were kept partly full of air to act as a cushion against water hammering and even out the pressures that vary during the pump strokes. The three pumps were simple rams, single acting, 120 degrees apart on the crankshaft, so the pressures would oscillate a bit during each revolution.
(https://i.postimg.cc/QtHCVHhM/IMG-9259.jpg)
The pipe at the bottom is the water intake - just above that was a large set of check valves, beyond which the water would flow through the oblong pipe to the center pump ram chamber. Above the oblong pipe was another platform full of check valves leading to the force chamber above, and ultimately to the output pipe on the outside of the force chamber, visible in this photo:
(https://i.postimg.cc/bv6dzQXM/IMG-9258.jpg)
The hole at the top of the force chamber will take a pipe that was used to pump air in/out to adjust the water level in the top chamber. The smaller round covered ports were manholes to allow access to the check valves. Hundreds and hundreds of check valves!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: ddmckee54 on April 14, 2021, 03:57:25 PM
Chris:

What were your print settings when you printed those parts, filament type, layer height, infill, etc... enquiring 3D printers want to know.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on April 14, 2021, 04:37:02 PM
That's a lot of studs, Chris!

Did they have studs in the floor to connect the frames to?  In the picture in Reply #260, it looks like two hex-head bolts there.  It could be studs though.  Hard to tell. You have access to higher-res pictures though...

The printed pipes sure look good!   :popcorn:

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: joe d on April 14, 2021, 05:40:11 PM
This is looking really good, Chris!  Seeing your pipe-work really brings home the value of the printer, fabricating all that would be a nightmare.

Joe
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 14, 2021, 06:55:52 PM
Chris:

What were your print settings when you printed those parts, filament type, layer height, infill, etc... enquiring 3D printers want to know.

Don
Hi Don,  will look up the settings later, what I recall is these are .15mm and .20mm layers depending on the part, PLA, .4mm nozzle.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 14, 2021, 06:59:54 PM
That's a lot of studs, Chris!

Did they have studs in the floor to connect the frames to?  In the picture in Reply #260, it looks like two hex-head bolts there.  It could be studs though.  Hard to tell. You have access to higher-res pictures though...

The printed pipes sure look good!   :popcorn:

Kim
They are studs, not much protuding. The printed parts are coming out well, the shallow curves need some smoothing. After experiments settled on fine paper, slowest speed, with the little detail sander, any faster it heats up too much. Using a wet dry paper, dipping the part in water frequently. Let dry, and it paints nicely.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 14, 2021, 07:01:59 PM
This is looking really good, Chris!  Seeing your pipe-work really brings home the value of the printer, fabricating all that would be a nightmare.

Joe
Some complex shapes, don't know how I would do them, and would waste tons of metal. The pump core section, which will be working, will be metal. Should be a great tool for the rc boats too!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 14, 2021, 07:32:37 PM
Chris:

What were your print settings when you printed those parts, filament type, layer height, infill, etc... enquiring 3D printers want to know.

Don
Hi Don,  will look up the settings later, what I recall is these are .15mm and .20mm layers depending on the part, PLA, .4mm nozzle.
Used 15% infill, though on these parts there is not much infill. Gyroid infill pattern. Monotonic top/bottom, 5 layers.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 14, 2021, 07:38:58 PM
That's a lot of studs, Chris!

Did they have studs in the floor to connect the frames to?  In the picture in Reply #260, it looks like two hex-head bolts there.  It could be studs though.  Hard to tell. You have access to higher-res pictures though...

The printed pipes sure look good!   :popcorn:

Kim
They are studs, not much protuding. The printed parts are coming out well, the shallow curves need some smoothing. After experiments settled on fine paper, slowest speed, with the little detail sander, any faster it heats up too much. Using a wet dry paper, dipping the part in water frequently. Let dry, and it paints nicely.
Looking through the high res pictures more, the lowest level uses studs, the upper levels are hex head bolts. The lower level studs have little sticking through, and most have enough dust/dirt on top that its hard to tell.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on April 14, 2021, 09:04:34 PM
That's a lot of studs, Chris!

Did they have studs in the floor to connect the frames to?  In the picture in Reply #260, it looks like two hex-head bolts there.  It could be studs though.  Hard to tell. You have access to higher-res pictures though...

The printed pipes sure look good!   :popcorn:

Kim
They are studs, not much protuding. The printed parts are coming out well, the shallow curves need some smoothing. After experiments settled on fine paper, slowest speed, with the little detail sander, any faster it heats up too much. Using a wet dry paper, dipping the part in water frequently. Let dry, and it paints nicely.
Looking through the high res pictures more, the lowest level uses studs, the upper levels are hex head bolts. The lower level studs have little sticking through, and most have enough dust/dirt on top that its hard to tell.


Do they have 1 & 1/2 threads protruding through the nut? :)  Isn't that the standard I've heard people talk about?    :Lol:

Thanks for checking Chris!
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: ddmckee54 on April 14, 2021, 09:05:43 PM
Chris:

You've probably already said, but what slicer do you use?

A couple of questions about the pumping section:

You say the pump core section will be working.  Do you mean the pump parts will be in the correct location and connected to the engine, but not truely functional - or do you intend to be able to pump something with it?

If you're going to pump something with it, do you intend to hide the inlet and discharge piping inside the printed piping, or actually use the printed piping as inlet and discharge?

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 14, 2021, 10:12:21 PM
That's a lot of studs, Chris!

Did they have studs in the floor to connect the frames to?  In the picture in Reply #260, it looks like two hex-head bolts there.  It could be studs though.  Hard to tell. You have access to higher-res pictures though...

The printed pipes sure look good!   :popcorn:

Kim
They are studs, not much protuding. The printed parts are coming out well, the shallow curves need some smoothing. After experiments settled on fine paper, slowest speed, with the little detail sander, any faster it heats up too much. Using a wet dry paper, dipping the part in water frequently. Let dry, and it paints nicely.
Looking through the high res pictures more, the lowest level uses studs, the upper levels are hex head bolts. The lower level studs have little sticking through, and most have enough dust/dirt on top that its hard to tell.


Do they have 1 & 1/2 threads protruding through the nut? :)  Isn't that the standard I've heard people talk about?    :Lol:

Thanks for checking Chris!
Kim
Looks to be about that in the pictures.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 14, 2021, 10:18:06 PM
Chris:

You've probably already said, but what slicer do you use?

A couple of questions about the pumping section:

You say the pump core section will be working.  Do you mean the pump parts will be in the correct location and connected to the engine, but not truely functional - or do you intend to be able to pump something with it?

If you're going to pump something with it, do you intend to hide the inlet and discharge piping inside the printed piping, or actually use the printed piping as inlet and discharge?

Don
The pumps will be (hopefully) fully functional. What I'm planning on doing is have the central pump chamber match the original, but the check valves in the scaled-down version would be teensy. And there are thousands of them. So, I am printing the valve housings, hollow, and will put tubing/tees/elbows inside to direct the water, and put check valves on the inlet/outlet of the pump chamber, inside the printed housings. I'd like to be able to run the tubing from the inlet/outlet to a water tank to show the pumping action while running the engine. It wont be pushing against pressure like the real one did, so plastic tubing should work. Going to mock it up outside the model to test, once its sealed up/bolted in, it would be a real chore to take it apart again!  I've got some stainless ball assorted-sizes coming, and I have the tubing/connectors on the shelf. I'm going to turn up the first pump chamber, and do some tests. The plunger is about 1" diameter, so it will want to move a lot of water (the real engine pumped almost 1000 gallons per revolution of the engine).
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 14, 2021, 10:35:17 PM
I get asked a lot about using large size brass in my models, which when buying small lengths is REALLY expensive. I needed some more 2-1/4" diameter stock for the pump chambers, each is nearly 4" long. I need 3 of them. Plus will use more on other parts later on this model, and on future models.

For comparison, I went to Online Metals (middle of the range on pricing, prices do vary by source/size/date, this is just an example). To get 4" long pieces, they are currently $68 apiece, or a 12" length is $168. Plus shipping, probably at least $20.

 Then I went over to Yarde Metals, where I buy a lot of larger stock - they sell offcuts, 'drops', in their Drop Zone section.  They had a 36" length of 2-1/4" 360 brass roundbar, thats triple the length, for $217. And the shipping on 42 pounds of bar was only $13. Hmmm, which will I go for....  :slap: Very little price difference, enough bar to last the next few projects instead of part of this one.

This is how I usually buy, when I can find the offcuts or bar on sale - buying in longer lengths and stock up, rather than buying just enough for what I need this week, paying higher per-foot prices and lots for shipping costs. Yes, I am laying out a little more right now, but in the long run its hugely cheaper. Buying offcuts requires checking back with suppliers more often since their stock changes daily/weekly, but for a 60% savings? Easy to justify.

Okay, off soapbox, for now! I get questions on this a lot, thought I'd throw this out there. If you have machine shops or metal dealers near you, its worth stopping in for a chat, many will sell leftovers cheap.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on April 14, 2021, 11:04:19 PM
I just wish I had Ye Olde Scrappe Yarde    :embarassed:   in my town.........the metal suppliers local to me are not good.

Great progress on the Holly engine. 3D prints look fabulous!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: propforward on April 14, 2021, 11:55:56 PM
Excellent approach to material buying. Going to look for a local material supplier!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 15, 2021, 12:25:37 AM
Excellent approach to material buying. Going to look for a local material supplier!
For those in the US, the Yarde Metals I mentioned is a large commercial supplier in the northeast. Go to thier website, and look for thier Drop Zone, its where they list thier offcuts, for buying online. Selection varies weekly, most pieces are two to three foot long. Good if you don't have a local place.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: propforward on April 15, 2021, 01:39:21 AM
Brilliant! Good to know - thanks!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on April 15, 2021, 05:32:52 AM
Good input, Chris!

Unfortunately, I've found that Yarde Metal's shipping is not so favorable to me, since I'm in the NW.  But Online Metals shipping is MUCH better for me than for you.  The metal isn't any cheaper for me though :(

I've also found that you have to check around.  Sometimes SpeedyMetals is cheaper and sometimes Online Metals is.  I order from both.

And I've listened to your recommendation and do check for cutoff's and order them when I can (when shipping doesn't chew up all the potential savings at least!)

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 15, 2021, 12:44:07 PM
Good input, Chris!

Unfortunately, I've found that Yarde Metal's shipping is not so favorable to me, since I'm in the NW.  But Online Metals shipping is MUCH better for me than for you.  The metal isn't any cheaper for me though :(

I've also found that you have to check around.  Sometimes SpeedyMetals is cheaper and sometimes Online Metals is.  I order from both.

And I've listened to your recommendation and do check for cutoff's and order them when I can (when shipping doesn't chew up all the potential savings at least!)

Kim
Agreed on all points. The prices and shipping vary a lot, hard to predict!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steamboatmodel on April 15, 2021, 05:02:26 PM
North of the Border it is usually Metals Supermarket or some of the recycling places. With the recycling spots you usually end up with mystery metals, usually good on copper pipe though.
Gerald.
 
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 15, 2021, 10:11:41 PM
Today was a boring turning day.  Well, technically,. turning then boring!   :Lol:

Started in on the first of the pump cylinders. There are three of them, one per engine cylinder, the plunger driven by rods coming down from the crosshead above.  I started with a length of 2-1/4" diameter brass roundbar, and turned the outside to shape.

(https://i.postimg.cc/8P3zzkft/IMG-9262.jpg)
The chamber flares out in the center to give the water space around the plunger. The plunger is about 1" diameter, with a 2" stroke, and the chamber is a little over 3" long overall. To give swinging room and room for the chuck jaws on the lathe I put the riser blocks in on the lathe. After shaping the outside, the part was swapped end for end and moved to the mill to drill the pattern of 16 2-56 clear mounting holes in the base. Back on the lathe, the bottom was trimmed to final length (it was left a little long to get the part past the chuck jaws). Then it was bolted to a steel faceplate that had a matching pattern of tapped holes, to start boring it out. I initially tried holding the part in the chuck for boring, but with that much weight and overhang the brass kept wiggling a little loose in the jaws, so I went for the faceplate - much more secure.
(https://i.postimg.cc/8z6PJ8hD/IMG-9263.jpg)
I drilled/bored out the inside to the 1" size of the plunger, then enlarged the inside more, and turned in the seat for an o-ring for a seal. There will be a cap that sits above the o-ring to hold it in place. On the original engine they used a large flat ring seal, not sure what material, but basically the same idea. The plunger does not have to seal down its length like a engine piston would, just needs the seal at the opening - the plunger displaces the water inside the chamber to force it out, and on the upstroke the volume un-displaced draws in the next 'chunk' of water. The chamber looks a lot like an old style milk can. Once all the boring is complete on the chambers, I'll make and add the pipe flanges on the sides, and on top it gets a pair of brackets that will hold struts extending up to the bottom of the engine beds. Lots to go on these parts! 
In the background am printing more of the force chambers, and tomorrow I go get my second dose of the vaccine!   :cartwheel:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Don1966 on April 15, 2021, 10:57:21 PM
Awwww the smell of brass......... :Love:


 :drinking-41:
Don

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: propforward on April 16, 2021, 01:18:49 AM
Wow - that is a wonderfully ornate part.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 16, 2021, 05:48:51 PM
One ornate brass pump chamber all turned down to shape, being shown off by a happy shop elf just back from his shot
(https://i.postimg.cc/Zq390pV5/IMG-9264.jpg)
A look inside, showing the lip for the o ring seal and how it widens out down inside
(https://i.postimg.cc/50VXzyRq/IMG-9265.jpg)
The top needs to be drilled/tapped for the seal retaining ring, and there are more parts to add to the outside - brackets for the vertical supports, and the pipe flanges. I am planning on building check valves into the pipe flange extensions. But, that work needs to wait a day since I want to leave the mill set up at the proper setting for the bottom end bolt holes, and this was the last of the 2-1/4" brass rod that I had on hand, the new bar will be here tomorrow. So, in the meantime I've started bolting the printed pipework/housings together. Lots, and lots, and lots of tiny nuts to thread on...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 16, 2021, 05:50:12 PM
Oh, and that logo on the sticker is from the state fairgrounds where they had one of the huge exhibition buildings set up as a vaccination site. Very efficient setup!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on April 16, 2021, 10:32:02 PM
Pump parts look great!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Congrats on the vaccination.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on April 16, 2021, 10:43:21 PM
Very nice looking brass pump chamber, Chris!

Have you had any side effects from your second shot yet Chris?  I got my second just recently and I was feeling pretty lousy the day after.  Slight fever & chills... not a lot of energy, background headache.  But it only lasted a day.  Hope you don't experience too much of that.

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 16, 2021, 10:56:48 PM
Thanks Kim/CNR.  Been putting in a couple of sessions with the printed parts, getting subassemblies made - several dozen screws and nuts per piece. Only thing I have noticed so far is the sore spot at the injection site, same as first dose. Hopefully that will be all!


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: 90LX_Notch on April 17, 2021, 12:43:56 AM
Chris-

That is a nice looking urn for the departed elves  :LittleAngel:.

-Bob
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Craig DeShong on April 17, 2021, 03:04:23 AM
Chris, I’m “blown away” with this build.  The printed parts are just fantastic, as is your other work.  This may be your best model yet!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on April 17, 2021, 09:26:20 AM
Absolutely Craig........this Y Pipe Spool is amazing  :headscratch:....more computing power  :atcomputer: than any Appolo voyage  .... Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 17, 2021, 01:32:28 PM
Absolutely Craig........this Y Pipe Spool is amazing  :headscratch: ....more computing power  :atcomputer: than any Appolo voyage  .... Derek
Those Y pipes (bigger one on the output side) took some figuring out. Fusion 360 has a lofting feature where you can make a sketch drawing of a planar cross section, then another sketch showing the path it takes, and then loft extrude the cross section along the path. Thats how I did the Y's, elbows, and later on the railings going around curved platforms. With one side of the Y done from base to end, it was cut off at the middle and then mirrored to get the other side.
The printer is coming in very very handy for these pump shells and pipes, I could have done the pipes with flanges easy enough, but the Y's, elbows, and housings would have been very difficult and very expensive to piece up from metal.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 17, 2021, 01:34:22 PM
Chris-

That is a nice looking urn for the departed elves  :LittleAngel: .

-Bob
They have been trying to contach W. E. Coyote for some barrels of black powder, they thing it is an elf-launching canon!  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 17, 2021, 01:35:50 PM
Chris, I’m “blown away” with this build.  The printed parts are just fantastic, as is your other work.  This may be your best model yet!
Thanks Craig!  I'm trying to step up my level of detail on this one - thinking back to the ones I saw in places like the Mariners Museum when I was a kid, that got me hooked on steam engines in the first place.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on April 17, 2021, 01:51:23 PM
Sorry...I have read your words  :happyreader: x 10 times  :insane:

I can sort of understand the logic with a 90 degree or a 135 degree elbow of equal or unequal flanged pipe spool piece :naughty: ...but am a little lost in the one piece printing of a 3 flange Y pipe spool piece  :facepalm:

Derek

Or is there a joint somewhere here?
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 17, 2021, 02:03:35 PM
Sorry...I have read your words  :happyreader: x 10 times  :insane:

I can sort of understand the logic with a 90 degree or a 135 degree elbow of equal or unequal flanged pipe spool piece :naughty: ...but am a little lost in the one piece printing of a 3 flange Y pipe spool piece  :facepalm:

Derek
In that picture the Y piece and the two elbows, which match the original machine shapes, have already been bolted together at the flanges. The software for 'slicing' the part into layers for printing handled everything else - you position the part how you want it on the printing plate, and it generates the g-code file with all the movements to print it. It also will generate support material, which is extra little towers of printed plastic that let it start the flanges that hang out in mid-air, since anything over about a 45 degree overhang wont print without the next extruded layer falling off. In the picture I had already removed that support material. I printed the Y with the large center flange down on the plate, the two angled flanges hanging out up above.

Not sure if I am answering your question? Attached is a picture of two of the upper force chambers I printed yesterday. The one on the left still has the support material on it, the one on the right has had that material snapped off (it just connects in a small area so it does not stick hard).
Sorry if I am answering badly - if so let me  know and I'll steer in a different direction!
Chris

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on April 17, 2021, 02:17:27 PM
Maybe if I had seen a few images of the Y piece, before the supporting elements had been cut away and removed would enlighten my mind a little  :Jester:

Keep going...I am sure I will get the understanding as you print/create   :killcomputer: more elements [hunks of pipes & things]

Derek  :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 17, 2021, 02:44:55 PM
Maybe if I had seen a few images of the Y piece, before the supporting elements had been cut away and removed would enlighten my mind a little  :Jester:

Keep going...I am sure I will get the understanding as you print/create   :killcomputer: more elements [hunks of pipes & things]

Derek  :cheers:
No problem at all - I didn't have a clue on this stuff till I got the printer and started going through the tutorials. I am giving you all 30 minutes of my unextensive experience!   :Lol:

Here is a screen shot of the larger Y piece in the slicer software, showing how it is oriented on the printing plate and what the support material it generates looks like, along with the printed part. I did not take any shots while printing. It lays down 0.2mm tall layers of plastic at a time, which is why it gets the stepped look on shallow angled areas - those will be sanded smooth before painting.


Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: kvom on April 17, 2021, 03:18:19 PM
I was thinking how I'd model the Y pipe in Solidworks.  I think the lofting is pretty similar, although no need to split/mirror the halves.

1) Draw two curves on plane 1 that follow the centers of the pipes (joined at one end).

2) Create planes perpendicular to plane 1 and to the ends of the lines.  On each of these planes draw a circle equal to the outside diameter of the pipes (input can be larger than output).

3) Apply the Lofted Boss/Base feature to both output circle sketches with the input circle as the destination.

4) Sketch a circle on each the three end planes equal to the inside diameter of the pipes.

5) Apply a Lofted Cut feature to remove the inside of the pipes.

6) Draw the 3 flanges on the 3 end planes and extrude them.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 17, 2021, 03:25:38 PM
Pretty muchj the same Kvom - with any of the apps and thier tools, sure there are multiple ways to do it. The thing I struggled with at first was how to have the two pipes angle off but leaving that center area clear, thats why I did the cut and mirror.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steamer on April 17, 2021, 04:00:39 PM
Crueby, are you going to use these as is? or use them as patterns?

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 17, 2021, 04:05:32 PM
Crueby, are you going to use these as is? or use them as patterns?

Dave
As is - at least with some sanding and finishing. I dont have the equipment or knowledge for casting. There will be piping and check valves inside these housings that connect to the metal pump chamber in the center. The way that the housings and pipe sections fit together I'll be able to open them up for access - more on that when I get farther along on the check valves.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: pgp001 on April 17, 2021, 04:51:11 PM
Chris

Which slicer software are you using ?
I have just been printing some of the pipework for Agnes using Cura 4.8.0 on my Ender 3 V2 which I have just bought, but am wondering whether to try other slicers as well.

Your prints look to be coming out very well, it is going to be an impressive model.

Phil
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 17, 2021, 05:17:35 PM
Chris

Which slicer software are you using ?
I have just been printing some of the pipework for Agnes using Cura 4.8.0 on my Ender 3 V2 which I have just bought, but am wondering whether to try other slicers as well.

Your prints look to be coming out very well, it is going to be an impressive model.

Phil
This is the Prusa slicer, came with the printer. Don't know if the support other brand printers, worth a look. Works well.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: kvom on April 17, 2021, 10:25:22 PM
Pretty muchj the same Kvom - with any of the apps and thier tools, sure there are multiple ways to do it. The thing I struggled with at first was how to have the two pipes angle off but leaving that center area clear, thats why I did the cut and mirror.

Yes.  If you loft both ID/OD of both pipes you'd get solid blockage at the joint. 
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on April 18, 2021, 12:56:25 AM
Ahah....I see it all now.."It lays down 0.2mm tall layers of plastic at a time" ....

I couldn't visualise how the print head got down there in the V of the valley of the spool  :facepalm: ....it didn't!,  as the depth of the V was only 0.2mm tall on each horizontal pass  :ThumbsUp:

Must admit, the horizontal build lines in your image helped me  :Director:

[so for every 1" in spool height  approx 125 x   :wallbang: as horizontal deposit passes]
[6H:53m print time with 23.7% of time being the support structure  :ROFL:]

Carry on...no more interruptions from me [for a while]

Derek  :wine1:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 18, 2021, 01:17:10 AM
Ahah....I see it all now.."It lays down 0.2mm tall layers of plastic at a time" ....

I couldn't visualise how the print head got down there in the V of the valley of the spool  :facepalm: ....it didn't!,  as the depth of the V was only 0.2mm tall on each horizontal pass  :ThumbsUp:

Must admit, the horizontal build lines in your image helped me  :Director: .[so for every 1" in spool height, approx 125 horizontal deposit passes]

Carry on...no more interruptions [for a while] from me

Derek
By George (not Britnell) I think hes got it!   :Lol:

Yup, thats the key to how these 3D printers work, they lay down an entire layer, then either raise the printhead, or move the platform down, then put down the next layer. The thinner the layer/smaller the nozzle, the smaller those little steps get. For the liquid resin printers, the resolution is amazingly small, but you are dealing with smelly sticky liquids. There are also sintered powder printers the spread a layer of fine powder, melt the grains where the object is with a laser, then spread another layer of powder. All sorts of variations, quite amazing technologies. Years ago we used early versions of these printers (I think they were the liquid resin type) to make prototype parts for the inkjet printers we were developing - lots faster than having steel injection molds made/changed/remade/rechanged.
The parts I am printing were already in the 3D CAD model I made over the last couple years from the original builder blueprints, just had to save them out as .stl and bring them into the slicer program that came with the printer. That program generates the gcode that the printer uses, so all the layer and support material smarts is in the slicer, the printer just has to worry about the stepper motors, heaters, etc.Most of the rest of the model will be traditional machining from steel/brass/bronze, but these pump housings were just crying out for the printer.
 :cheers: :cheers:
Oh, and questions/interruptions/comments ALWAYS welcome! Reminds me of my favorite sign, that hung outside a bookstore in Kennebunkport Maine:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on April 18, 2021, 01:48:42 AM
OK...time has passed  :old:  [question :headscratch:  time open again] ...how flat and square are the spool piece flanges?

When any 2 are bolted together, do they sit as they should?

So reading backwards, there will be some water flow, but @ low pressure?
Would a Silicone type [Gasket in a tube] compress to provide an adequate seal?
Permatex market [152 gm tubes of RTV silicone] in an extensive range of colours....[stay away from fluroscent pink]  :Jester:

This type of material would appear to be a little easier to apply than punching out :hammerbash:  14, 256 bolt holes in 0.05mm thick gasket material

Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 18, 2021, 03:33:24 AM
OK...time has passed  :old:  [question :headscratch:  time open again] ...how flat and square are the spool piece flanges?

When any 2 are bolted together, do they sit as they should?

So reading backwards, there will be some water flow, but @ low pressure?
Would a Silicone type [Gasket in a tube] compress to provide an adequate seal?
Permatex market [152 gm tubes of RTV silicone] in an extensive range of colours....[stay away from fluroscent pink]  :Jester:

This type of material would appear to be a little easier to apply than punching out :hammerbash:  14, 256 bolt holes in 0.05mm thick gasket material

Derek
Wow - time flies when you're having fun!  Or as Kermit would say, Times Fun When You're Eating Flies!

Nope - these printed parts will not carry the water directly, just the brass central pump chamber will. Inside the plastic parts will be tubing to carry the water, as well as the sets of check valves to make the pumps work. Its really because of the check valves that I decided to do it that way. I hadn't even considered the gaskets that would be needed - oh my!   :hellno:

I'm going to make pipework to run down the straight sections, elbows/tees as needed to connect the water lines with the check valves and into the pump chambers. I've been changing my mind a lot on exactly where things will be and in what orientation or I'd put up the diagram, will do that this coming week when things settle down to a solid plan for more than an hour!   :stickpoke:

I have made up the housings/pipes to be able to come apart easily, even though they are all bolted together with a bazillion bolts, will put pictures of that up as well to show the tricks - maybe I can fool Penn and Teller with that.... Well, I doubt it, Teller is a pretty smart elf!   :happyreader:

Oh, and as for the flanges - they do seem to come out quite accurate to the design, have not measured any shrinkage or distortions, things line up quite well with this PLA. The surfaces of the flanges are nice and flat, though you can see the edges of the extruded paths, they are blended into each other well. The insides of the thicker walls are a pattern of wavy infills to keep them supported but reduce the material/print time. Not many areas like that on these parts, most of the walls are only a few lines thick anyway. Supposedly the material will absorb moisture, so the filament is stored in sealed bags between uses, and if they were to be used as actual pipe I'd seal the surfaces first - either thinned epoxy or varnish works well for that. The parts I make for the RC boats will get treated that way, as well as painted. Wet-sanding the parts works well, keeping the parts cool from the sanding as well as keeping the paper from clogging.


Lets see, I did get the new brass bar stock today, probably annoyed the delivery guy with a 42 pound mailing tube! I noticed that the end cap was missing from the tube, but the bar was still there. I wonder whose shipment of glass ornaments got squished when the bar speared them....   O:-)   Almost as good as the time that I ordered 5 bars of stainless steel - they came in separate mailing tubes (very thick cardboard with wood endcaps nailed on). Probably 20 to 30 pounds each. Could have smashed up a truckload if they rolled around on the corners! I do know that the UPS guy lost a fingernail - he tried carrying them all together up the driveway at once and they shifted.... Ouch!  I gave him advance warning of heavy orders after that so he could take that day off... 
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Jo on April 18, 2021, 04:22:35 PM
Lets see, I did get the new brass bar stock today, probably annoyed the delivery guy with a 42 pound mailing tube! I noticed that the end cap was missing from the tube, but the bar was still there. I wonder whose shipment of glass ornaments got squished when the bar speared them....   O:-)   Almost as good as the time that I ordered 5 bars of stainless steel - they came in separate mailing tubes (very thick cardboard with wood endcaps nailed on). Probably 20 to 30 pounds each. Could have smashed up a truckload if they rolled around on the corners! I do know that the UPS guy lost a fingernail - he tried carrying them all together up the driveway at once and they shifted.... Ouch!  I gave him advance warning of heavy orders after that so he could take that day off...

I had a 1m long piece of 2" diameter EN8 delivered by post: all they had done was rolled some brown paper round it and used lots of Sellotape to hold it on and the lady delivery driver asked what is it? I said "its a bashing stick" she said yes that is what my son thought it was and I had to stop him hitting his brother with it (the boys were about 3 and 5 sitting in the back of her car ::) )

Still following along  ;)

Jo
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 18, 2021, 05:35:16 PM
Lets see, I did get the new brass bar stock today, probably annoyed the delivery guy with a 42 pound mailing tube! I noticed that the end cap was missing from the tube, but the bar was still there. I wonder whose shipment of glass ornaments got squished when the bar speared them....   O:-)   Almost as good as the time that I ordered 5 bars of stainless steel - they came in separate mailing tubes (very thick cardboard with wood endcaps nailed on). Probably 20 to 30 pounds each. Could have smashed up a truckload if they rolled around on the corners! I do know that the UPS guy lost a fingernail - he tried carrying them all together up the driveway at once and they shifted.... Ouch!  I gave him advance warning of heavy orders after that so he could take that day off...

I had a 1m long piece of 2" diameter EN8 delivered by post: all they had done was rolled some brown paper round it and used lots of Sellotape to hold it on and the lady delivery driver asked what is it? I said "its a bashing stick" she said yes that is what my son thought it was and I had to stop him hitting his brother with it (the boys were about 3 and 5 sitting in the back of her car ::) )

Still following along  ;)

Jo


 :Lol:




Then they'll put a little part the size of a deck of cards in a w foot square box with maybe a small square of crumpled paper...




Great to have you along for the ride!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 18, 2021, 05:37:19 PM
Got a start on the other two pump chambers this morning, taking a side job now to make up some new plexi chip shields, the old ones were getting too scratched up to see through, one got dropped and broke.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 18, 2021, 06:46:19 PM
Finished with the new chip guard for the lathe - just a sheet of clear plexi bent in a 90 with a little heat from a torch, then cut an opening to let it fit over the cross slide end. Been using same setup for years, old one finally got too scratched to see through well when the task light was shining through it.

Here it is while turning the second pump chamber to shape. Behind the lathe you can see the first one, and the third one as it was in the chuck to rough in the base and drill the mounting holes on the mill. New shield doesn't show that well in the picture, but you can see the top/left edges pretty well. It extends down past the tailstock, is long enough to deflect the brass chips which like to fly in all directions. It rests on the cross slide, so it moves with the cutter.

(https://i.postimg.cc/K8ng76t7/IMG-9272.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dave Otto on April 18, 2021, 06:49:44 PM
 :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 18, 2021, 07:02:17 PM
For a great set  video describing the engines and the pumps, take a click over to the Cincinnati Triple Steam web site. They have a very simnilar engine and pump setup to the Holly engine I am modelling - there are a few minor differences, but the engines are following the same general design and were made by a different manufacturer.


http://cincinnatitriplesteam.org/gcww_videos.htm

I have not been to the Cincinnati pump museum, hoping to get there after all the Covid restrictions let them open again. I have toured the Bufallo pumps once, want to get back there again too.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: gary.a.ayres on April 18, 2021, 09:46:31 PM
These pump chambers look the business!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on April 19, 2021, 03:14:04 AM
Thanks for sharing, those 3 video's are excellent viewing  :hammerbash:

We had a thread in the last weeks on Why viewing is Dimensioning  or something

Certainly not the case with this Members work  :Lol: :Jester: :atcomputer: ...I mean how crazy can these projects be?

To be continued  :cheers: :popcorn:  :wine1:

Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: fumopuc on April 19, 2021, 07:32:40 AM
Hi Chris, very instructional videos are at this link. Thanks for it.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 19, 2021, 09:59:31 PM
Been a busy couple of days on the pump chambers, got the other two chambers turned and bored out...
(https://i.postimg.cc/MK2thWNk/IMG-9278.jpg)
Then moved over to the mill to drill the pattern of holes around the top rim for the seal retaining ring in the elf storage containers, um, I mean pump chambers...
(https://i.postimg.cc/Njb49RMY/IMG-9280.jpg)
With those holes all drilled, moved on to making the retaining rings from a smaller offcut bar. The bar was turned to diameter, bored through, and the flanges turned in for the first ring before drilling matching clearance holes in the rim:
(https://i.postimg.cc/sDYKzkCM/IMG-9281.jpg)
Then parted off the first one, ready to turn the flanges on for the second one...
(https://i.postimg.cc/VkzgkKzD/IMG-9282.jpg)
Over the last week or so I've also been bolting up all 87.3 gazillion of the fastenings for the pipes, valve chambers, and force chambers that I 3D printed. Here is the set:
(https://i.postimg.cc/1ztKp4nF/IMG-9273.jpg)
"But, um, wait you idiot... You need to put in the check valves and internal tubing!"  I can hear you yell at your screen.   :atcomputer:

No worries there - the top/bottom flange sections and one end of each pipe is actually made as a separate piece, so the sections can be unstacked/slid apart as needed for access to the insides:

(https://i.postimg.cc/DzMP5FLM/IMG-9276.jpg)
Here is a closer view of the way the flange comes apart, there is a lip on one side that mates with a recess on the flange:
(https://i.postimg.cc/jqJZgW8Q/IMG-9277.jpg)
This will (hopefully) give me enough access to the internals of the chambers/pipes to connect up the tubing/valves that will actually carry the water for the pumps. I am hoping to be able to pump water out/back into a container for demonstrations, but since that will not involve pumping into a pressurized system like the real ones, I shouldn't have to worry about the back pressures and force fluctuations that the real one did. These engines only ran at 10 to 20 RPM, but even so the volume per revolution was pretty high (nearly 1000 gallons per rev on the real engines). I am going to be running some tests on one of the pump chambers after the pipe flanges get added to determine the openings I need on the check valves and the tubing sizes, to let it pump freely. Depending on the results, I may be able to have the inlet water come in on just one side, and the outlet go out the other side of the system, which would make connecting everything up easier. If not, there will have to be inlets/outlets on both sides (inlet comes in from one end through the lower pipes, outlet goes out the other end through the upper pipes).


So, next steps - finish up the retaining rings, then will start on the pipe flanges and brackets that go on top of the pump cylinders - all metal, silver soldered onto the pump chambers.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: pgp001 on April 19, 2021, 10:27:57 PM
Very impressive, I like it  :ThumbsUp:

Phil
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: gary.a.ayres on April 19, 2021, 11:23:15 PM
Fabulous!

 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Craig DeShong on April 20, 2021, 03:48:18 AM
Still loving those printed parts Chris.  You keep this up and I’m going to need to investigate 3D printing.

BTW.... if you hear strange noises coming from your shop in the wee hours... and you seem to be missing some of those printed parts... I’d be looking for a still that the elves have bashed together and then squirreled  away in some dark corner. :DrinkPint:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: fumopuc on April 20, 2021, 06:24:32 AM
Hi Chris, I like these 3D printing some time very much.
I push the card into the printer, press the start bottom and go to bed.
Next morning if you wake up and enter the shop, the part is finished.
May be some day your shop elves will be able to do it in the same way.
In the evening you will put the drawing on the table, together with a piece of the right material and in the morning when you enter your shop again, the part is finished, laying  there beside the drawing at the table.
O.K., it does not match with the "Global Digitization"  it is more magic.
So may be no a real picture of our future.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on April 20, 2021, 02:29:50 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Chris, the pumps / piping parts look great. Smart idea with the slip joints for disassembly.

Craig, maybe Chris is not worried about a still so much now that the shop elves have access to all those joints (pipe or otherwise)  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 20, 2021, 02:40:57 PM
Hmmmm, now I'm scared to go see what the elves are up to!   :paranoia:

Before worrying about that, the latest thoughts were how I'm going to mill the openings for the pipe flanges and brackets in the sides of the pump chambers. Lets see, a jig block running this way to bolt onto that, then a block over there....   :thinking:
(https://i.postimg.cc/2SVgNgWR/Pump-Chamber.jpg)


Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on April 20, 2021, 04:30:52 PM
It looks like it already has its' hands up in surrender, in the pic!  :Lol:

Jig designer's dream for that job. The milling might be interesting too, wall depth in the oval cuts will vary a lot. You will probably blast through it as usual before I am done typing........ :cheers:   :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

BTW it may be wise to get the water hose ready in case you see shop elves  :smokin2:     

If there is enough pressure and flow, repeat offenders are unlikely.  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 20, 2021, 10:01:29 PM
So, after getting the water hose back from the shop elves and getting dried off.... 


Got the three pump chamber seal retaining rings finished up, turned the last one and did a cleanup pass on the side that was parted off.
(https://i.postimg.cc/HnqwVSzx/IMG-9283.jpg)
Then, after some part pondering (sort of like casting fondling, but not) and thinking on how to hold the chambers to cut the openings for the pipe flanges, I decided to go a fairly simple route and make an arbor to hold them with a 1" 5C collet in a square holder.
(https://i.postimg.cc/vZd7yND2/IMG-9284.jpg)
I had toyed with making a jig to hold them on the rotary table and do the cutting with small end mills, but that got too complicated for alignment so I went back to drilling two side by side holes and expanding them out with the boring head. The pipe that comes out of the chamber, as you can see in the CAD screen capture a couple posts ago, is round on the ends with a flat section in the center. The OD of the end arcs is .870", so too big to drill directly, and the two holes intersect since they are only 1/2" apart, so the boring head won out. I started by positioning the part and drilling two 3/8" holes a half inch apart.
(https://i.postimg.cc/8zBRzm6p/IMG-9285.jpg)
Then bored the first hole out to size, it started out as an interrupted cut due to the curve of the part, and again when the two holes intersected. The brass cuts very easy, so the interrupted cuts were no problem, was able to start out at a higher RPM at first but had to cut it back a bit as the boring head was offset at the larger diameters.

(https://i.postimg.cc/9F9PvhXq/IMG-9286.jpg)
Then moved over to the second hole and brought it up to the same size
(https://i.postimg.cc/9fmGRwdG/IMG-9287.jpg)
As you can see, the drilled holes go through the side wall, but the bored holes do not - I wanted to leave a ledge there to help position the flange that will be inserted and silver soldered. To keep from miscounting and lowering the head too much (which would be nasty as the cutter bottomed out), I put a heavy machinist parallel clamp on the mill column as a hard stop - its just on the frame of the column, not touching the leadscrew at all.
(https://i.postimg.cc/bYWHCJPh/IMG-9288.jpg)
So, for each chamber, I'll drill/bore through both sides, turning the square holder over to get at the other side, and am using the end of the holder as an index point on the end of the vise. The parts are marked where they are on the arbor, so I can swap parts and get them back to the same position again later - the pipe holes need to be the in the right orientation in relation to the holes in the bottom flange so things will line up with the valve chambers when bolted to the base. After all the holes are bored, I'll go back and use an end mill to connect the dots - taking out the little triangle of material left between the two holes, completing the openings. The arbor needs to stay in the collet through all this to make sure everything aligns.


After that, I can mill the slots in the sides of the chambers for the brackets that hold the arms, which will go up to the bottom of the engine bed plates. Then can start making the pipe flanges themselves, and the brackets. Going to be a while!!
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on April 20, 2021, 11:57:52 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Don1966 on April 21, 2021, 01:34:06 AM
Geeez Dog do you ever sleep? That’s some amazing work at an incredible rate. But you know .......I..............likeeeeee...... :Love:


  :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 21, 2021, 02:05:16 PM
Well, getting no work out of the shop elves today!  When they woke up this morning and looked out the window, they got all excited and ran out the door so they could build a Snow engine!

(https://i.postimg.cc/g0Y8nWN7/IMG-9290.jpg)
They remember ones like this at Cabin Fever
(https://i.postimg.cc/1zxZwsww/IMG-1845.jpg)
Normal people build snow men.... they build snow engines...   :facepalm2:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RReid on April 21, 2021, 03:02:06 PM
Are you sure they didn't 3D print all that?
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Bluechip on April 21, 2021, 03:32:15 PM
Hi Chris

I'm most intrigued by that solenoid motor.  :cartwheel:

I seem to have seen one very similar, maybe on the John Jenkins site (?).

Makes a refreshing change from all the 'pistoney' gubbins that infests this site ....  ;D  ;D  :paranoia:

Dave

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 21, 2021, 03:37:48 PM
Are you sure they didn't 3D print all that?
Maybe they collected pillows from around the neighborhood and shredded them...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 21, 2021, 03:39:32 PM
Hi Chris

I'm most intrigued by that solenoid motor.  :cartwheel:

I seem to have seen one very similar, maybe on the John Jenkins site (?).

Makes a refreshing change from all the 'pistoney' gubbins that infests this site ....  ;D ;D :paranoia:

Dave
I don't recall whose engine that is, good chance someone here remembers or its thiers! It is one of many I took pictures of at Cabin Fever.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on April 21, 2021, 05:24:05 PM
I don't think that Snow from cabin fever is going to melt though.....   :Lol:

 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Craig DeShong on April 21, 2021, 06:17:04 PM
I don't think that Snow from cabin fever is going to melt though.....   :Lol:

 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

No, but it will “melt our hearts!”
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 21, 2021, 08:25:41 PM
Still snowing outside, so a good day to play in the shops. Did a coupl emore sessions and have the four holes bored out in the first of the pump chambers. The flanges at the bottom of the holes is being left in, they will keep the pipe sections in place during silver soldering later, after squaring up the flat sides of the holes. For now, I am going to bore the same holes in the other two pump chambers, since the mill is all set up for that operation.
(https://i.postimg.cc/CLvHvfZm/IMG-9292.jpg)
Between sessions on the mill, I got coats of paint on all the 3D printed valve chambers/force chambers/pipes - this is the same iron color as was used on the frames. The shop elves approve of their new climbing jungle...

(https://i.postimg.cc/Gh3xJjp4/IMG-9291.jpg)'

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RonGinger on April 22, 2021, 12:30:10 AM
The solenoid engine is not- its an electric motor.  It was built by Joe Higgins of Portland Maine. So is the Snow engine in that photo. Joe does amazing work. Joe did a couple old electric motors, mostly copied form photos or old patent drawings.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 22, 2021, 12:43:27 AM
The solenoid engine is not- its an electric motor.  It was built by Joe Higgins of Portland Maine. So is the Snow engine in that photo. Joe does amazing work. Joe did a couple old electric motors, mostly copied form photos or old patent drawings.
I remember walking down the line of tables, stopping at his and going Oooohhhh!  Very well done!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Bluechip on April 22, 2021, 07:08:34 PM
Looks somewhat like a Froment motor  :thinking:

https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-energy-electricity-electric-motor-by-paul-gustave-froment-1815-1865-58401877.html

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 22, 2021, 09:54:20 PM
Continuing on today with boring the holes in the sides of the pump chambers - three of four holes done in chamber two. Looks just like the pictures I posted yesterday...

Also spent some time in Fusion designing up the check valve sets for them. Lots to work out, to make it so they can be assembled into the 3D printed housings and be able to get at the screws, room for seals, all that.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: mikehinz on April 23, 2021, 12:38:06 AM
Wow!  I don't know how I missed this build, but I've just read all the posts and I must say, I'm most impressed!  The complexity and build quality are simply astonishing!  I'll be carefully following along as you progress.  Again, fantastic work!

Mike.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 23, 2021, 12:45:28 AM
Wow!  I don't know how I missed this build, but I've just read all the posts and I must say, I'm most impressed!  The complexity and build quality are simply astonishing!  I'll be carefully following along as you progress.  Again, fantastic work!

Mike.


Thanks Mike!  Great to have you along. Maybe you were so focused on your Webster  you didn't look around.   :Lol:   plenty of time to catch up, this build is going to be going a ling time!


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: 90LX_Notch on April 23, 2021, 01:02:28 AM
Looking good Chris.

-Bob
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 23, 2021, 02:31:59 AM
Looking good Chris.

-Bob
Thanks Bob!   :cheers:

I got the design done for the check valves, and will print a prototype to confirm that it works, fits, and that I'll be able to get the fasteners in and tightened when in the housings. Should save a lot of time and metal if it turns out that there is an issue with the design - once I start making the real parts, it will be more mass production of each one so would not know of any problems till they were all made. Lots of bits that have to be assembled together in a small space.

More important, looks like middle of next week we are back to warm summer weather again! Couple days ago I mowed the lawn, then watched  it get covered in 4 inches of snow. The fun of New England weather!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on April 23, 2021, 04:09:03 AM
Chris...you earlier mentioned of the unique design and of the large number of check valves...this obviously was a considerably difficult solution to harness  :killcomputer:

If you have 100 .... :slap: 1000 gallons of pump displacement per revolution .......this equates to ~~ 3800l litre  :ThumbsUp: or 3.8 tonnes of water coming to a series of dead-head stops within the valving and pipework, hence the considerable size/voulme of the 3 expansion [fluid accumulators]

I suspected 90% of the banging/crashing noise in Part 1 Video was from downstairs [within the water elements] with the actual steam engines being a series of substantial  woosh......woosh......woosh noises only

Derek

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 23, 2021, 04:27:44 AM
Its even worse, its 1000 gallons, not 100.




I was watching the third of thier videos, turns out they mentioned that the films they had were silent, and they added the sound track from other engines, so hard to know what it really sounded like. Bummer on that!  Still, all that  water movement and thousands of check valves must have meant vibration and sound. In the plans it shows the check valves as T shapes with springs, some sort of seal material. Had to be sounds from that. I remember seeing a video of a giant steam engine running a armor plate rolling mill, might have been in the show Industrial Revelations, gives some sense of sound. The pumps ran at just 10 to 20 rpm, so no high speed whirring, but thats still a lot of moving metal to rumble. Must have been mesmerizing to watch five of these in a row all going, much more so than the little electric ones they use now. Little by comparison anyway.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 23, 2021, 04:12:41 PM
Glad I took the time to print a prototype set of the check valve parts - there was one piece that I forgot to work out how to assemble in place in the housings. Got that fixed, reprinting those two parts...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 23, 2021, 11:14:39 PM
Today got the last of the holes in the pump chambers bored, and started milling the flats that connect the holes:

(https://i.postimg.cc/FHtpy7TY/IMG-9294.jpg)
The rest of these will go a lot quicker than the boring did. After these flats are done, I'll lay out and start milling the slots for the brackets that go on the sides of the chambers (see the CAD rendering back several posts for a picture of that).

Weather today was decent, got out to the garage and replaced the old noisy/flickery/dim shop lights with new LED versions - LOTS brighter, and will work in cold weather a lot better too. Now just need to take a run over to the recycle place with the old tubes... Replaced the last couple of the old fluorescents in the basement too.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 24, 2021, 03:56:29 PM
With the pipe holes all milled, next step was to cut the slots for the side brackets to fit into. This went quickly, just three straight cuts per side, took as long to swap parts with all the little screws on the arbor as to make the cuts.
(https://i.postimg.cc/85C4chMj/IMG-9295.jpg)
Here are the three pump chambers so far
(https://i.postimg.cc/k4hcbBvw/IMG-9296.jpg)
Went through the bar stock shelves and found a perfect piece of flat stock for the verticals on the brackets:
(https://i.postimg.cc/q7wQpmtP/IMG-9297.jpg)
I'll get sets of those cut to rough length, along with pieces for the horizontal shelf on top, and start bolting them together for silver soldering.

Also I have been going round and round to figure out how to make the pipe extension/flanges that fit the oblong holes. Considered piecing them up from round and flat stock, but that would be a LOT of long flat seams to get soldered watertight. I dont have any flat bar thick enough or round bar close in size to the overall width (just one short bit of 1-3/8", would need another foot of that). I do have that nice big chunk of 2-1/4" roundbar that I got to make the chambers from. If I take short sections of that, stress relieve them, and cut them lengthwise in half, I'll get chunks perfect for making the parts from. It will take yet another jig to round the ends and leave the flats in the center, but that will be easy to figure out. Again, here is what the finished chambers need to look like (too bad they will be so hidden behind all the other pipework and valve chambers! )
(https://i.postimg.cc/2SVgNgWR/Pump-Chamber.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 24, 2021, 05:29:01 PM
And a little time with the band saw to make up six sets of Holly Pump Chamber Bracket Kits - lots of assembly required!
(https://i.postimg.cc/wTrzFV0Q/IMG-9298.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 25, 2021, 03:39:08 PM
Yesterday afternoon saw the bracket 'kits' drilled/tapped for small screws to hold them in place for silver soldering.
(https://i.postimg.cc/bwpk8rdZ/IMG-9299.jpg)
Got them assembled and clamped to the pump bodies to drill/tap a single hole in the center vertical fin (which was also notched to that hole would be shorter) to bolt the bracket to the body.
(https://i.postimg.cc/jScNjTJZ/IMG-9301.jpg)
After soldering (which will be done at the same time as the pipe sections are soldered in), the vertical fins will be milled back at an angle to the body - the left/center bracket in the previous picture has a line sketched on it showing that angle.

This morning I turned my attention to the pipe sections. Not having any flat stock thick enough, I took some short lengths of the 2-1/4" bar that the pump chambers were made from and sawed (sawned? sawneded? sawed!) in them in half which gives just enough stock to make the oblong section sof the pipes, as well as an extension that will go through the pipe on the valve body and bolt to the check valve assembly (to be made later). The ends of the halves were also sawed off to cut down on milling time.

(https://i.postimg.cc/c4qf9XSM/IMG-9302.jpg)
To hold them for milling, I made an arbor with a 10-32 center hole and another one 1/2" to one side (the arcs on the oblong are 1/2" on centers). Now I am drilling the holes in the blanks (left of next photo) so they can be bolted to the arbor on the rotary table (right of next photo). With this setup I can mill the profile of one end of each to fit the pump chamber openings, and the other ends to clear the openings in the valve housings. Lotsa swarf and crank turning for the next couple days!
(https://i.postimg.cc/kXxKkKMr/IMG-9303.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Jo on April 25, 2021, 04:17:53 PM
 :popcorn: Its amazing what can be made by soldering bits together  :popcorn:

Jo
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 26, 2021, 04:05:03 PM
:popcorn: Its amazing what can be made by soldering bits together  :popcorn:

Jo
Pretty much the way patterns for castings are made, except they usually used wood and glue!   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 26, 2021, 04:12:24 PM
Using the arbor jig thingy made last time, I started in on shaping the ends of the blanks that go into the opening in the pump chambers. First took the sides to width, same distance out from center on each side (easy with rotary table, take both sides down with same settings)

(https://i.postimg.cc/26pxtX04/IMG-9304.jpg)
Then centered the table front to back, and took the first end down till it met the sides
(https://i.postimg.cc/SsWGb7PH/IMG-9306.jpg)
then swapped the blank around and did the same on the other end. Here is a test fit of the chamber on the end
(https://i.postimg.cc/brp9yScr/IMG-9307.jpg)
And a view from inside the chamber, showing how the part rests up against the shoulder left on the chamber opening. The holes in the part are still small, to fit the arbor screws, will take them out to final diameter after the other end of the part is milled.
(https://i.postimg.cc/D06d8fng/IMG-9308.jpg)
So far I have three of the parts to this stage, three more to go, then will start on the other ends, which go into the valve chamber pips. There also needs to be a flange added for bolting the pipes together.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: EricB on April 26, 2021, 08:08:20 PM
 :popcorn:

That's a lot of brass! I was wondering how these pumps were going to work after boring holes through the sides of the cylinders. I think I can see now that the piston just displaces the liguid in the vessel rather than forcing it down a bored cylinder. Is that correct?

Eric
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 26, 2021, 09:33:52 PM
:popcorn:

That's a lot of brass! I was wondering how these pumps were going to work after boring holes through the sides of the cylinders. I think I can see now that the piston just displaces the liguid in the vessel rather than forcing it down a bored cylinder. Is that correct?

Eric


Exactly right. The pump chamber is just like the little hand operated boiler feed pumps we use on model boilers, a simple ram in a chamber to draw in and force out water. On the hand pumps, there is normally a single set of check valves at the end of the chamber. On this pump, there are two sets, one on each side of the chamber. The ram goes through a seal at the top, then the chamber flares out inside, so its not making contact down the length like a piston. There are three pumps, one under each piston of the engine above, and the pumps are single acting. When running, the action of the three overlap, each in a sine wave, so the final output is closer to a straight line. Not straight, but close to it, and the air pressure at the tops of the force chambers helps even it out. The videos from Cincinnati that I linked to several posts back do a great job showing animation of it all.


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on April 26, 2021, 10:48:58 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on April 26, 2021, 11:28:55 PM
Are you going to set the axis of the pump chambers up in the mill so the gusset lines [edges/sides/tops] are in the horizontal plane, then simply slab mill them to the desired angle? [after being silver soldered?.

Derek ..[sorry  :facepalm: my face angle shown is out a bit.......but you get the drift  :ROFL: ]
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 27, 2021, 12:05:49 AM
Are you going to set the axis of the pump chambers up in the mill so the gusset lines [edges/sides/tops] are in the horizontal plane, then simply slab mill them to the desired angle? [after being silver soldered?.

Derek ..[sorry  :facepalm: my face angle shown is out a bit.......but you get the drift  :ROFL: ]
Not totally sure what you mean?  The pipe sections are horizontal and straight across one side to the other, at same level as the pipes coming out of the valve chambers. So, everything is square to everything else. Other than being rounded on the sides, at least. The chambers were held square to the mill by thier bases, the openings make it look like they are on an angle since they go through a round and tapered area on the chambers.


Does that make sense? I can add more pictures if not.


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 27, 2021, 12:17:10 AM

This should clarify what I'm making - a side and top view of the finished pump chamber. The part I'm making now is highlighted in blue.
(https://i.postimg.cc/9FZHNrCS/Image11.jpg)
With the corner view
(https://i.postimg.cc/2SVgNgWR/Pump-Chamber.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on April 27, 2021, 12:29:45 AM
No, the 3 gussets on each side of each pump chamber are the supporting elements for the upstairs weight

The outer face of each of these sets of gussets is not a vertical line, each face tapers back into the body of the pump chamber

Look at my mockup, you can see your BLUE line just below my YELLOW line [in the approx horizontal plane]

Let us see the end elevation view [as seen] of the RED arrow

Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 27, 2021, 12:56:51 AM
Hi Derek,
Sorry, i've been working on the pipes all day, and my brain got stuck thinking about them!

Yes, on the brackets, the gussets are completely vertical, but the outer face does taper back to the pump body at a 15 degree angle. All three of the vertical gussets have the same angle, which makes them easier for me to mill.  Here is the other side view:
(https://i.postimg.cc/2yCnR1gw/Image14.jpg)
What I am planing to do is to mount the pump chambers back onto the jig I used to mill the slots - that jig is still in the collet block, and is marked for the which face of the pumps goes to that side of the jig, so I can put them back on square to the collet block again. Then, I'll clamp the collet block at a 15 degree angle and run the mill down the gussets  to give them the angle. Should be easy to do, probably have to do the last little bit where the side gussets meet the body by hand since the pump body is on a curve there.The jig will also let me clamp the soldered body upright and square so that I can drill the holes in the tops of the brackets where the vertical struts to the engine blocks go. That jig is getting a lot of work on these parts! Trying to line the bodies up without it would have been really tough.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on April 27, 2021, 01:08:32 AM
Yep.......

That's exactly how I assumed you would achieve & complete this multiple machining function... as you say the Jig :hammerbash:  is getting a multiple of uses 

Derek  :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 27, 2021, 04:04:30 PM
Moved on to milling the other ends of the pipe sections, using the same jig as before to hold the parts. Since this end is longer I had to switch to a longer-flute end mill, fortunately had picked up some of them this past winter. This end is a little smaller than the first one but the same shape, it has to fit inside the opening in the valve housing. A flange for bolting it up will be added later. Here it is with sides taken in and first end rounded over:

(https://i.postimg.cc/25p2M4NW/IMG-9309.jpg)
And the second end
(https://i.postimg.cc/FKjD47hB/IMG-9312.jpg)
First one set in place in the pumnp chamber and with the valve housing too:
(https://i.postimg.cc/B64NQ46Q/IMG-9313.jpg)
The end that goes into the valve housing will be trimmed back a little, and the holes through will be enlarged for full water flow. There will be a set of drilled/tapped holes at the valve end to bolt it to the check valve housing (that part of things will be shown later, it was what I had 3D printed a prototype of to make sure it would all fit and be accessible for attaching it all together).
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: scc on April 27, 2021, 08:30:26 PM
Chris,  Every time you post on this project I am in awe and want to comment but cannot keep saying "WOW", etc, so will refrain from posting replies. I am following closely and quietly :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :cheers:       terry
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 27, 2021, 08:39:21 PM
Chris,  Every time you post on this project I am in awe and want to comment but cannot keep saying "WOW", etc, so will refrain from posting replies. I am following closely and quietly :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :cheers:       terry
Great to have you along Terry, there are plenty of other builds on the forum I do the same thing with!   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on April 27, 2021, 09:50:23 PM
Pump assembly is looking great Chris!  :cheers:  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Craig DeShong on April 27, 2021, 11:28:33 PM
Chris,  Every time you post on this project I am in awe and want to comment but cannot keep saying "WOW", etc, so will refrain from posting replies. I am following closely and quietly :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :cheers:       terry

Ok Terry, I’ll say it for you:  WOW !  :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steam guy willy on April 28, 2021, 12:13:34 AM
Hi Chris, this is looking really good ..amazing and you do work very quickly. can I borrow some of your Genes  ?!! as it takes me ages to make my models  !!!

Willy
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: gunna on April 28, 2021, 09:40:21 AM
I'm with Terry and Craig (above). Think I will just shutup and watch!
Ian.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 28, 2021, 01:34:04 PM
Thanks very much everyone, much appreciated!  This is a big project, going to be at it for quite a while with all the details that I want to include in it. At first look I'd see the scope of it, and run the other way, but like an elephant sandwich, one bite at a time!
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: mklotz on April 28, 2021, 03:33:47 PM
One of the most important mental disciplines to develop in our hobby is the ability to get as stimulated and excited about making one perfect part, no matter how small, as you would when the project is finished and running.

I'm still working on that; self-discipline has never been my strong suit (just ask my wife). :-)

Like many others, I tune in every day for the next episode but seldom comment.  Keep up the build log; like your others, it will become an icon for future builders.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RReid on April 28, 2021, 03:47:01 PM
Quote
One of the most important mental disciplines to develop in our hobby is the ability to get as stimulated and excited about making one perfect part, no matter how small, as you would when the project is finished and running.

That's very true. I was just commenting to my wife yesterday about how I now enjoy making each individual part for it's own sake and not being always so impatient to see the bigger project finished. That may be a combination of aging and the nature of this activity. Anyway, I'm not sure I could sustain that attitude over the course of a project with the scope of yours, Chris, but you've already well demonstrated that you can!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Don1966 on April 28, 2021, 09:07:11 PM
Outstanding work Dog........  :Love:



 :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 29, 2021, 12:04:18 AM
One of the most important mental disciplines to develop in our hobby is the ability to get as stimulated and excited about making one perfect part, no matter how small, as you would when the project is finished and running.

I'm still working on that; self-discipline has never been my strong suit (just ask my wife). :-)

Like many others, I tune in every day for the next episode but seldom comment.  Keep up the build log; like your others, it will become an icon for future builders.


Very well put. In addition to having a high standard for accepting a part, its important to know when you are getting a little tired and to walk away from the shop for a break. I've always struggled with both, getting better over time. Sometimes when I stall on a project and lose interest, I'll look back at early parts and realize that I don't like something, and decide to either remake or improve it. Had a partly rigged ship model like that once, realized finally that the reason I stopped working on it was that the thread was too thick on the shrouds, making it look chunky. Bit the bullet, stripped it back and redid it, that made all the difference and kept at it. I still have parts that I settle for but am not thrilled with, thats a tough discipline to master! But, I try to raise the bar a bit each time. Not always successful, but its a goal. Chocolate chip cookies are a good reward incentive!


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 29, 2021, 06:27:10 PM
Yesterday I got the last of the narrower ends milled down on the pipe sections, this morning got the holes drilled to attach them to the check valve bodies. Still need to tap them.
(https://i.postimg.cc/02ZcK2ZF/IMG-9315.jpg)
Then got started on milling out the insides of the pipe sections, plunge cutting with a 3/8" end mill after drilling in three places 1/4".
(https://i.postimg.cc/cLHTRybH/IMG-9318.jpg)
The end mill doesnt quite reach all the way through, but thats fine since I dont want to hit the vise bottom. Finished up with cuts from the other ends - not critical if there is a slight step where they join, its just the inside of a low-flow water pipe after all.After all of them are hollowed out, I think things are ready to silver solder all the parts on the pump bodies. I need to decide if the parts can all go on in one heat, or if it will take two per pump. I am guessing two to get good coverage all the way around - if so, I'll attach one bracket and one pipe section in first heat, other bracket and pip in second. May need to wait a day or two for the weather to be good enough to get out in the driveway, got some rainstorms and lightning rolling by today and tomorrow, Saturday is looking decent out in the current fore-guestimate-cast.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 30, 2021, 03:13:25 PM
A cold blustery day outside today, so going to wait on silver soldering the pump chambers and skip ahead to prepping stock for the check valve array. The bandsaw got a workout this morning, next need to trim the diameter down to fit the printed housings. Pics later...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 30, 2021, 05:02:08 PM
Picture of the prototype check valve assembly and real parts start - prototype on left is in several sections, two that hold the inlet and outlet valve balls (5 per section), and top/bottom sections to adapt the wider plates to narrower copper pipes. Bit more complex than maty be needed otherwise, but these have to be able to be assembled inside the printed valve/force housings with pipes leading in and out. The pump chambers are 1" diameter with 2" stroke, so thats a fair amount of water to move in and out. So, getting started with the perimeter holes, then will move to the lathe to take the outsides to size and bore the center chambers on the thicker pieces. There are 6 of these assemblies to make overall.

(https://i.postimg.cc/pdbbmDfV/IMG-9319.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Roger B on April 30, 2021, 05:07:40 PM
Splendid  :praise2:  :praise2: those pump chambers are tending towards jewellery   :ThumbsUp: :wine1:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 30, 2021, 05:13:08 PM
Splendid  :praise2: :praise2: those pump chambers are tending towards jewellery   :ThumbsUp: :wine1:
Maybe in appearance, they would make a very heavy ring!!   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on April 30, 2021, 06:14:18 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

be sure to take a break periodically while working on all the check valve bits. You wouldn't want a dose of valvitis, after all. :Lol: :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 30, 2021, 06:27:20 PM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

be sure to take a break periodically while working on all the check valve bits. You wouldn't want a dose of valvitis, after all. :Lol: :cheers:
Sounds nasty!   :Lol:   

I did have a case of de quervain's tendinitis a couple years ago, basically like carpal tunnel but in the base of the thumb, brought on by too much time on the lathe and mill. Resolved well with a shot and treatment by the ortho specialist, but I do take more breaks now.  30+ years on a keyboard with no issues, and the mill got me after retirement!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 01, 2021, 08:15:52 PM
This morning more snow on the ground, so I continued on with the blanks for the check valves, got the rest of them drilled for the rim bolts and most of them taken down to finished diameter.
Then, this afternoon warmed up pretty well, around 60F and light breeze, so I set up out in the driveway with the torch and got the first round of silver soldering done on the pump chambers:
(https://i.postimg.cc/KcLSsCvY/IMG-9320.jpg)
The way the angles worked out, I can do one bracket and one pipe section at a time. Going to let them cool for a while (lot of mass in them) and then give them a nice long soak in the pickle solution (Sparex 2) to clean them up again. Tomorrow is looking like another decent day, so I should be able to do the other sides then. It may take one extra heat to do the tops on the brackets, have to wait and see after they are cleaned up if I was able to get that joint done as well on the first go-round.I started out with a medium-large nozzle on the torch, and that worked but was taking a long time to get the center hot, so for the second two I switched to the largest nozzle that torch will take - that went much better, hot well within the time range of the flux and flowing well. That first one may need more solder on the top side of the pipe flange, not sure if it flowed around as far as it did on the others. These kinds of parts really need the bigger type torches, I have a 20# propane tank driving a Seivert handle that takes different nozzles, plus a roofers torch that is even bigger for the larger boilers. A small-tank hardware store type propane or Mapp torch would never put out enough BTUs for these larger parts, or even a medium sized copper boiler.So, tinight the pumps get a night at the spa in the pickle solution, I'm going to be baking a new batch of dark chocolate chip mint cookies with the shop elves!   :stir:    :wine1:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on May 01, 2021, 08:22:46 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 02, 2021, 02:03:52 PM
Another round of soldering this morning, if the rain holds off I can get the bracket tops this afternoon.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 02, 2021, 05:26:40 PM
While waiting for the pump chambers to finish swimming laps in the pickle solution, i've started taking the last of the check valve discs down to finished diameter. These are the top lids. They are too thin to stick out of the chuck to turn one end at a time like the other discs, and thier holes are threaded, so I bolted them to the bottom chamber discs and chucked those up with the top lid sticking out:
(https://i.postimg.cc/FRmdBzYx/IMG-9322.jpg)
so that it could be turned to size and have the faces trued up

(https://i.postimg.cc/26wbRYvN/IMG-9323.jpg)
Then started in drilling/boring the top/bottom plates for the water inlet/outlet holes. Now, if I was thinking ahead properly, I would have left them bolted to the bottom discs and bored through both at once. Didn't think of that till just now, so they are being done separately.

(https://i.postimg.cc/nLq92Bhz/IMG-9324.jpg)
Once all the center holes are done, I'll start in on the bottom chambers, boring them out on one side to leave an opening on one side that goes almost out to the rim holes - this chamber will let the water flow from the inlet pipe out to the ring of check valve openings in the next chamber up. It will make more sense after the next couple parts are made and I can show the stack - there is the bottom chamber to feed the inlet check valve, which bolts to the end of the pump chamber pipe. Then above that is a outlet check valve chamber, with the top lid on top of that, which leads to the outlet pipe. The check valve bone connects to the, lid bone.....  :Lol:   Okay, now get THAT song out of your head!   :LittleDevil:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 02, 2021, 08:32:55 PM
This afternoon got in a couple of soldering sessions on the pump chambers before and between the rain showers. Think that should be the last needed on them, will know for sure after the last two cool and go for another swim...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: propforward on May 03, 2021, 02:45:05 PM
I am just happily following along, with nothing to add but admiration. I like your brazement. Or is it a solderment?  :thinking:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 03, 2021, 04:07:42 PM
I am just happily following along, with nothing to add but admiration. I like your brazement. Or is it a solderment?  :thinking:
Solderizementizing?  Whatever it's called, the joints looked like they flowed all the way around, happy with that. Got them cleaned up and ready to mill the brackets to final shape this afternoon. Clear weather this morning so it was a good time to mow the lawn then sit out on the porch to read. Clouds are moving back in, supposed to rain again this afternoon, so will wander back into the shop after lunch.

 :cheers:
 
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 03, 2021, 07:27:43 PM
Catching up on progress from yesterday, had started boring out the lower manifold and middle valve chambers on the lathe while waiting for the pump chambers to clean up in the pickle bath:
(https://i.postimg.cc/g2HGpLWw/IMG-9325.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/TY8xWJ2L/IMG-9326.jpg)
So, this afternoon, when the rains moved back in and got too chilly to sit out on the porch and read/nap, I got the brackets milled to shape on the pump chambers. Started with taking them to width - the bar stock I used for them was a little oversize, and waiting till now to take the stock to width evens out any alignment issues with the soldering process. In this picture the back gusset and top flange are down to size, middle and front gussets are still at rough size.

(https://i.postimg.cc/RhtzDNdZ/IMG-9327.jpg)
and here they are all down to width
(https://i.postimg.cc/SQYqsv4b/IMG-9329.jpg)
Then used a protractor to set the 15 degree angle on the part
(https://i.postimg.cc/TwpxnkWm/IMG-9330.jpg)
to set up for milling the angle into the gussets
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZqfZBk04/IMG-9331.jpg)
Here are a couple shots of the pump chambers with the shaping done
(https://i.postimg.cc/W4pT1pN5/IMG-9332.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Qtw3mppz/IMG-9334.jpg)
So, looks like they are all done and ready for some paint and installing.... Nope! Still need to tap the holes in the ends of the pipe sections, and drill/tap the holes in the tops of the brackets to take the mounting bolts from the bars that sit on them. Probably should also run a tap into the top seal ring mounting holes to make sure no grit is left in them from the soldering. And a couple spots on the solder need some sanding/filing to smooth out some bumps and drips of solder. May also need to trim the ends of the pipe sections, but they should be good as is, will know when the check valve chambers get far enough along to test fit.  Lots still to go on these parts!

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on May 04, 2021, 12:20:23 AM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Don1966 on May 04, 2021, 03:33:48 AM
Dog you just amaze me……… :Love:


 :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 04, 2021, 03:42:39 AM
Dog you just amaze me……… :Love:


 :drinking-41:
Don


Thanks Don!   I'm waiting for you to come over and polish these pump parts....  :Lol:   Too late, they'll be painted by the time you get up here!


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on May 04, 2021, 06:25:29 AM
Well, Chris, you get more done in one relaxing read/nap day afternoon than I get done in two weeks!
 
The suite of parts sure look nice sitting there all in a row!   :popcorn: :popcorn:

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 04, 2021, 02:05:12 PM
Well, Chris, you get more done in one relaxing read/nap day afternoon than I get done in two weeks!
 
The suite of parts sure look nice sitting there all in a row!   :popcorn: :popcorn:

Kim
Shows the power of the nap. And the chocolate chip cookie.
 :DrinkPint:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Brian Rupnow on May 04, 2021, 02:57:28 PM
Chris--I'm following along, amazed at your energy and machining capabilities. Keep up the good work.---Brian
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 04, 2021, 08:33:26 PM
Thanks Brian!  More time spent doing errands and putting together new shelves for the wood shop than time on this model today, but I did get the holes drilled in the tops of the side brackets. Not enough height to put the collet in the vise in normal position, so I set up the larger vise on its side:
(https://i.postimg.cc/fbNkQsnT/IMG-9335.jpg)
Get them tapped, then I think it will be time to get the pump chambers painted!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 05, 2021, 07:04:55 PM
With the pump chambers all shaped, and the blanks for the check valves turned to OD and thier chambers bored into the center, time to mill in the flats on the outside of the inlet chambers for where they will bolt to the pipes on the pump chambers. More assembly-line milling, getting the cutter depth set then going through all the parts.
(https://i.postimg.cc/JhrZG5Xj/IMG-9336.jpghttps://i.postimg.cc/JhrZG5Xj/IMG-9336.jpg)
Then drilled the holes for the mounting bolts, and relieved the inside where the screw heads will land on the inside wall. Here is the first one test fit on a pump chamber:
(https://i.postimg.cc/mrmMM13J/IMG-9337.jpg)
There will be a thin rubber gasket to seal around that connection, as well as between the check valve layers. Next will be to cut the openings in the flats just milled for the water to flow through, then can start cutting the valve ball seats in the bottoms of the chambers. There will be posts next to the valve seats to keep the balls from moving sideways too far.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: kuhncw on May 05, 2021, 07:26:37 PM
Very nice work, Chris.

Chuck
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on May 05, 2021, 09:20:41 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Better lock those assemblies in a cupboard after hours or they may be full of Elfensteiner stubby  empties in the morning!   :Lol: :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 05, 2021, 09:46:44 PM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Better lock those assemblies in a cupboard after hours or they may be full of Elfensteiner stubby  empties in the morning!   :Lol: :cheers:
With the pipes out each side, its funny to watch the elves try and drink from it like a mug - giant dribble glasses!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 05, 2021, 09:47:44 PM
Very nice work, Chris.

Chuck
Thanks Chuck!

Got a coat of paint on the pump chambers, really look different than the raw brass. Pics tomorrow after it cures up.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 08, 2021, 04:39:54 PM
Not much to show the last few days, lots of drilling/tapping holes in the check valve chambers... Got them all done finally, ready to start making the fittings for the top/bottoms of them that will attach them to the pipes between them for inlet/outflow. And all the drilling/tapping required there!
(https://i.postimg.cc/DzPHLKw8/IMG-9339.jpg)
The check valve chambers each have four balls for increasing the flow possible. Had to put posts (stainless screws) between the holes to keep the balls in position. There are two sets of check valves, one either side of the pump chambers, just like on the original engine, for maximum capacity - going to be tedious putting them all together! The top connection to the pipe has to go in first, then the top cap will bolt to that, then the inlet check valve can be bolted to the pump chamber pipe, then all the sections get long screws through to bolt all of them together, followed by the connection to the inlet pipe at the bottom. I'm sure that all makes no sense, will take pictures of the sequence when all that happens in another week or so. For now, a big pile of parts, with more to come for the top/bottom connections!

Also, got some paint on the pipe chambers:
(https://i.postimg.cc/FRFqxnYG/IMG-9338.jpg)
The frame legs on one side will have to come off to get it all assembled, since the pipe sections between the housings are already bolted on - the shop elves drew the line at crawling between all the parts with a small wrench to put in all 3.8 million bolts/nuts.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: tvoght on May 08, 2021, 05:29:05 PM
Chris, Don't get me wrong, your work has always been outstanding, but I'm sure I detect your finishes getting even better!   --Tim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 08, 2021, 06:04:50 PM
Chris, Don't get me wrong, your work has always been outstanding, but I'm sure I detect your finishes getting even better!   --Tim
Been doing some tweaking on the gobs and backlash adjusters, also put in a new insert, which helps. Still learning about lathe and feed speeds, just going to have to keep practicing! Darn, gotta make more parts...  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 08, 2021, 07:40:49 PM
And this afternoon started in on the next batch of parts for the check valves - these will become the inlets/outlets on the outer cap plates, connecting the check valves to the horizontal pipes. The pipes will have Tees (normal plumbing ones, using household copper tube) with flat plates soldered to the T to bolt to these pieces. These pieces will be bored down the center, not all the way through though, with an opening on the side to interface with the T.
(https://i.postimg.cc/vmVt978T/IMG-9340.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on May 08, 2021, 11:32:50 PM
Very nice pile of parts there, Chris!  Looking forward to seeing them all come together! :)   :popcorn: :popcorn:

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on May 09, 2021, 11:30:34 AM
When the pressurised side of a simple water system leaks,  we can tap  :killcomputer: the check valve ball into it's seat........to get a seal  :ThumbsUp:
 
When a complex water system with multiple check valves leaks, and each valve with multiple check elements  :Doh:  :facepalm:  :shrug:  :lolb:

Good luck  :ROFL:

Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 09, 2021, 03:18:55 PM
When the pressurised side of a simple water system leaks,  we can tap  :killcomputer: the check valve ball into it's seat........to get a seal  :ThumbsUp:
 
When a complex water system with multiple check valves leaks, and each valve with multiple check elements  :Doh: :facepalm: :shrug: :lolb:

Good luck  :ROFL:

Derek
Very true. On the original machines there were over a thousand valves to get the volume, if a few stuck they would not lise that much. On my model there are four per section, 48 total. Much more chance for failure than ony Weir pump with two. At least in this case if one somehow sticks it will still pump some, good enough for demos, till I can bribe a shop elf to go in there with a little hammer.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Roger B on May 09, 2021, 06:43:14 PM
Wonderful as ever  :praise2:  :praise2:  :wine1:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 09, 2021, 07:09:07 PM
Wonderful as ever  :praise2: :praise2: :wine1:
Thanks Roger!    Been toiling away on drilling/tapping the holes in the inlet/outlet blocks, doing a couple blocks at a time then going off to do other things. Not quite as bad as doing crawler tracks!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RReid on May 09, 2021, 07:40:05 PM
So, the elves don't work on Sundays?
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 09, 2021, 08:17:01 PM
So, the elves don't work on Sundays?
I think they're off at the squirrel races...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 09, 2021, 11:23:30 PM
So, the elves don't work on Sundays?
I think they're off at the squirrel races...


They must have hit the trifecta, came back home singing, big bag of shiny pennies...   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on May 10, 2021, 02:37:18 AM
Hoo boy, could be a wild time in the old town tonight! I'd get the shop elves on the compressor / air needle scalers tomorrow, to clean up silver solder flux or something. It's an effective hangover cure....... :Lol:

Remember, deaf shop elves don't hear beer delivery trucks!  :o

Pump parts progress looks great Chris!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 10, 2021, 04:49:14 PM
Woke the shop elves early today and sent them into the shop to finish dilling/boring/tapping out all the pieces for the inlets/outlets on the check valve arrays...
(https://i.postimg.cc/7ZNvSK0L/IMG-9341.jpg)
The pile o parts, blocks ready for silver soldering the side tabs to:
(https://i.postimg.cc/wjz8tCtP/IMG-9343.jpg)
After soldering, the tabs and blocks will be drilled through the side for the water and mounting screws. The blocks will be screwed to the round caps/plates with some thin rubber gasket for a seal.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 11, 2021, 04:13:27 PM
Yesterday saw the side tabes silver soldered onto the connector blocks for the check valves. Today I bored the holes in the sides, and skimmed the face where they will meet the flanges on the pipes.
(https://i.postimg.cc/T3RCbyFX/IMG-9344.jpg)
Bore, skim, repeat...
(https://i.postimg.cc/XvqL2RnH/IMG-9345.jpg)
Then, on todays episode of Confuse-An-Elf, they are trying to figure out why the local bees sent them a stack of their poker chips!
(https://i.postimg.cc/DwB5Pv34/IMG-9346.jpg)
These are the blanks for the flanges that will be soldered to the plumbing Tee's - did not have any flat stock the right width, so I took a length of hex bar that has been sitting on the rack a few years waiting for a use, and cut some chips off the end. They will be bored to fit on the tees, soldered on, then the top/bottom edges will be milled off to form the flanges.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: ddmckee54 on May 11, 2021, 04:18:47 PM
You must grow some BIG bees in that area if those are their poker chips.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 11, 2021, 04:20:19 PM
You must grow some BIG bees in that area if those are their poker chips.

Don
And you wonder why I stay inside in the shop!   :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on May 11, 2021, 08:36:11 PM
Attached is a pic of the two biggest bees I ever saw.

Parts look great Chris.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: gary.a.ayres on May 11, 2021, 11:08:52 PM

(https://i.postimg.cc/wjz8tCtP/IMG-9343.jpg)


Smaug should be sitting on top of this lot. Where is he?

Great progress ongoing with the build!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 11, 2021, 11:53:51 PM

(https://i.postimg.cc/wjz8tCtP/IMG-9343.jpg)


Smaug should be sitting on top of this lot. Where is he?

Great progress ongoing with the build!
Smaug is in the living room, was watching TV but fell asleep...
(https://i.postimg.cc/gjRbxMjs/IMG-9350.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: gary.a.ayres on May 12, 2021, 08:39:42 AM
I thought he'd be around somewhere.

I hope you took advantage of the situation and managed to get your hands on the brass gold while the dragon slumbered...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 12, 2021, 08:27:55 PM
This morning I took the Tee fittings and the hex flanges outside to silver solder them together. Redid the first couple after realizing that I had forgotten to line up the flats on the hex the way they needed to be.   :wallbang: Then got them a soak in the pickle solution and a little wire brushing, before starting to shape the flanges down.

(https://i.postimg.cc/SRYJfZW3/IMG-9351.jpg)
On the back right, is one as silver soldered. The one in the mill vise has had the excess pipe sticking through the hex milled off, and the face of the hex section skimmed off too. The one on the back left has had the points of the hex milled off, making the whole thing narrow enough to fit through the 3D printed pipes and housings to where they will mate up with the check valve assemblies. So, 1-1/2 of them done, 10-1/2 more to go! (there are two of these per check valve, 2 sets per pump, so 12 in all).
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on May 12, 2021, 10:33:49 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 14, 2021, 03:10:21 PM
Getting close to finishing up the check valve side of things. The last of the metal fabrication was to drill/tap all the holes in the Tee flanges and the top/bottom connector blocks, then cut a batch of threaded rod for the long studs to hold all the parts together.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZnbFJSFh/IMG-9352.jpg)
So, here are the metal parts that make up one of the six check valve assemblies:
(https://i.postimg.cc/vHmLjGZr/IMG-9355.jpg)
Still need to cut out a batch of gaskets for all the mating surfaces - I have a sheet of .030 thick viton rubber for that. Here is one of the check valves as assembled (no gaskets yet)

(https://i.postimg.cc/L4D3NJ24/IMG-9354.jpg)
The lowest pipe is the water inlet. Above that is a shallow dish that distributes the water to the inlet check valve chamber, with four ball bearing check openings. That is bolted to the end of one of the pipes leading into the central pump chamber (there will be one of these assemblies either side of the pump chamber). Above the inlet chamber is the outlet check valve chamber, with four more ball bearings/holes. That has a cap with the outlet pipe. Note that the outlet pipe is on the outside of the assembly - they did this since the legs of the lower frame are at an angle, and the legs go between the pipes.
And here is a view of one set of parts for one of the three pumps, including the 3D printed housings that go around the check valve assemblies. The layout of those housings determined the layout of the check valve parts, and how they bolt together, so that things could be assembled into the housings - took a lot of playing around in the 3D CAD app to figure all that out.

(https://i.postimg.cc/fy87LrBS/IMG-9353.jpg)
The housings are in two pieces, top and bottom, with the flanges made so that the upper piece will just sit down on top of the lower piece - the top flange for the lower piece is separate, and already bolted to the top piece, and has a notch that mates with the top of the lower piece. This saves trying to bolt up the housings when assembled to the rest of the parts on the model, which would have been a real bear. The tee fittings will get short sections of copper pipe inserted and loctited in, and the pipe/tee sections will (just) slide through the pipe openings in the housings, then can be (just) screwed to the connector blocks. The sections of the valves are held together by three long threaded rods, which screw into the top plates and get nuts at the bottom. The entire pump assembly, all three pump chambers and all six check valves, plus all the housings, will be assembled together, then put onto the model base plate in one unit. The legs of the frame will have to come off to do that, and be re-installed afterwards. Going to be a lot of fiddly work for all that, with the shop elves teaching me new swear words as screws/nuts get dropped along the way!


 
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on May 14, 2021, 03:52:20 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build-off topic
Post by: Steam Haulage on May 14, 2021, 04:58:16 PM
Off topic i have spent some time not in the best of health but am hoping to catch up soon. I remember you began using Fusion 360 when you designed the steam powered skating timber logging tractor with great success. Can I ask - are you still using that package? I am considering looking at it again.

Great to see you are maintaining your quality!!!

Jerry :DrinkPint:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on May 14, 2021, 05:21:47 PM
This is really neat, Chris!  Thanks for the detailed info on how it all fits together.  It is starting to make more sense to me now :)  Great work, as always!   :popcorn: :popcorn:

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dreeves on May 14, 2021, 06:50:18 PM
Chiris, Great looking so far. 1 question will the brass parts be inside the 3d printed parts?

I look forward to the new posts everyday

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build-off topic
Post by: crueby on May 14, 2021, 09:18:34 PM
Off topic i have spent some time not in the best of health but am hoping to catch up soon. I remember you began using Fusion 360 when you designed the steam powered skating timber logging tractor with great success. Can I ask - are you still using that package? I am considering looking at it again.

Great to see you are maintaining your quality!!!

Jerry :DrinkPint:
Hi Jerry,


Yes, I am still using Fusion 360, recently bought the full license when they started restricting some of the import and export features on the free version, I need them for both my builds and for all the magazine articles I have been doing, well worth it for my uses. Very comfortable with it, though it has a lot of capabilities I don't need.


I used it for the Marion  Steam Shovel and Stanley engine builds, lots of RC submarine stuff too. Works well with my new 3d printer too.


Chris
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 14, 2021, 09:20:53 PM
Chiris, Great looking so far. 1 question will the brass parts be inside the 3d printed parts?

I look forward to the new posts everyday

Dave
Hi Dave,


Yes, the brass check valves will fit inside the printed housings, so won't be seen but will function like the check valves cast into the housings on the real engine. At least thats the plan! Will know for sure soon.


Chris
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Steam Haulage on May 15, 2021, 08:52:17 AM
Crueby wrote:
Yes, I am still using Fusion 360, recently bought the full license when they started restricting some of the import and export features on the free version, I need them for both my builds and for all the magazine articles I have been doing, well worth it for my uses. Very comfortable with it, though it has a lot of capabilities I don't need.

Thanks Chris, especially the note about using the paid version. I have every confidence in Autodesk software having been an Inventor user for some years. Now I am fully retired the annual subs for that is way out of my reach, I tried Fusion 360 when it first launched just to see how it performed and was, even in those relative ly simple days, impressed but didn't want to learn a new approach. The Full subs works out about £500 including the tax so is just about doable, hopefully the learning curve is as well.

I have tried to keep up with your really admirable projects and envy is just about in check.

Best regards
Jerry
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 16, 2021, 06:23:28 PM
Yesterday was our first full pond day with the RC submarines for the season, had perfect weather for it, great time out. No shop time, though one of the other guys and I are plotting out our next submarine builds - I'm doing the CAD work for the 3D printed fins/cockpit/etc, he is making up the ballast systems and radio compartments. It is going to be based on the shark-shaped sub from an old TinTin cartoon that he found. Pics on that as it comes together - thinking that it may be sized right for the shop elves to ride in!

Been plugging away at making all the gaskets for the pump/checkvalve assemblies. Got them all done, and cut down the lengths of copper pipe that will go between the check valves. Rather than solder, I am using some thick Loctite to join the pipes and tee fittings, they will not be under much pressure and just cold water, no steam or heat, and the Loctite makes a quick way to join them. I'm just attaching the pipes on one end of the tees for now, I need to have things partially assembled on the main base plate to space things out properly to make the lengths of pipes/tees in one piece. That will probably happen tomorrow, letting the loctite cure up plus its nice out and the front yard is calling.... Pictures of the assemblies tomorrow probably.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 17, 2021, 02:38:19 PM
This morning got the pump pieces all test assembled on the base, looks like the fit is good so I'll take the pipe sections off one at a time and loctite the joints. After that has set, take it apart one more time, add the gaskets, and assemble them with the housings around them. They will go into the housings in a particular order that allows access to the screws, will take pictures as I go.
(https://i.postimg.cc/bvpRmqXj/IMG-9358.jpg)
The first picture shows it from the HP cylinder end, which is where the lake water enters through the lower set of pipes - still need to make the barbed fittings for the ends to take some large bore flexible tube that will be fed through the Y-shaped pipe that will come off the end. On the up stroke of each pump cylinder, it draws water through the lower check valve chambers on either side and into the pump cylinder at the center. On the downstroke, the pump forces the water back out to through the upper check valve chambers at the top, and out the upper pair of pipes to the far (LP cylinder) end, and to the city. Below is a side view. The vertical frames were removed for all this work, they will go back on after the housings are on. Going to be a lot of screws to place and tighten down!

(https://i.postimg.cc/VkjR9dVR/IMG-9359.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RReid on May 17, 2021, 03:27:10 PM
Great to see all those parts start coming together. I'm sure you could see it in your minds eye, but I sure couldn't. Looking fantastic, per usual!  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 17, 2021, 04:08:39 PM
Great to see all those parts start coming together. I'm sure you could see it in your minds eye, but I sure couldn't. Looking fantastic, per usual!  :ThumbsUp:
Thanks Ronald! Even with the CAD model of it, and seeing it the minds eye, I STILL keep putting some of the parts on backwards the first time!   :shrug:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: EricB on May 17, 2021, 04:15:48 PM
Hi Chris,

Looking at your pictures I'm wondering if your pipe arrangement will fit in your housings.

Eric
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 17, 2021, 04:26:22 PM
Hi Chris,

Looking at your pictures I'm wondering if your pipe arrangement will fit in your housings.

Eric
Well, elf-exhaust!  Where were you yesterday?   :Jester:

Yup - you are right, those caps are fine for the lower housings where the pipe extends out and is capped, but not on the upper housings with the blended in pipe ends. Huh. Never spotted that one - did all the modelling in CAD for the pipework on the middle housing. Whoops.    :slap:

Not a big problem, I can trim off the end of the Tee and put in a plug instead. The tee sections work, but would have been better done with an elbow in that one place. Those upper assemblies are the first to go in the housings, so I would not have gotten very far!  Thanks much for the catch!!!   :cheers:

The (butt)-crack rework team is on it:
(https://i.postimg.cc/W4MS94b2/IMG-9360.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on May 17, 2021, 05:13:54 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on May 17, 2021, 06:20:30 PM
That looks really slick, Chris!   :popcorn: :popcorn:

Boy, some people are following very closely to be able to catch that!  I'm still trying to catch up to what it's going to look like when assembled!

Great work.  I'm sure you'll get this little hiccup worked out quickly!

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 17, 2021, 07:14:27 PM
Thanks Kim!  As for what it is going to (hopefully) look like, the pump section of the engine is circled in this picture. Probably another couple months to get that level done, then on to the actual engine above it! There is a maintenance platform about the level of those smaller hatches above the ladders still to make, that does not show well in this picture. Plus a bunch of smaller pipes/valves. The pump plungers too, they connect in to the crossheads above, with the clusters of vertical rods visible around the con-rods. I've got castings for the flywheels, those are going to be fun to machine down, they are 8" diameter, 1" thick, quite heavy.

(https://i.postimg.cc/5yMgn6qN/DSC-7603-Lower.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 17, 2021, 08:52:03 PM
Got lucky - trimming those end caps off at an angle did the trick! They now fit inside the upper housings with the blended end pipes.   :)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on May 17, 2021, 09:52:09 PM
Thanks for posting that - I know you've shown the whole thing before, but seeing here, after watching that whole pump section come together - REALLY gives me a feel for the size of that monster.  The lower pump section must be 20' tall or more (judging from the guy standing there). 

You could mill the fly wheels using your RT?  ;D

And a slightly different question - those big pipes coming up at an angle on the right side - are those for the steam? Or something else?

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 17, 2021, 10:26:53 PM
Hi Kim,


These engines really are ginormous. And there are five of them in that building! Truly awesome sight.


The flywheels will be done on the lathe, have done others this big before. The Sherline headstock can be turned 90 degrees so the flywheel is hanging off the back, allowing the rim and one side to be turned at a time. I could also put in two riser blocks and turn it over the bed, but that gets iffy for rigidity and tool angles. I want to put in a taper lock which would be a tricky setup, or may stick with a keyway. Have not decided yet, that is months away still.




Those angled pipes on the right are the exhaust from the LP cylinder coming down to the condensor, which is a set of heat exchanger pipes inside a drum cooled by the pumped water. Another small pump sends that water out, not sure if the sent it back to the boilers. The condensor was added later, so is not in the plans. The input steam line is a smaller vertical pipe in the left end in that picture.


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: gary.a.ayres on May 17, 2021, 10:29:01 PM
Looking great!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 19, 2021, 03:50:53 PM
No progress posts from the last couple days, but progress is being made. With the nice weather finally here, lots of outside time, but I have started assembly of the pumps. A couple of the parts needed some fettling for a proper fit, and I did some extra sealing on the tee/pipe joints since I don't want to have to take it all apart again later for any small leaks. Pictures are coming, going to wait till its all together so I can show the sequence all at once so it will make more sense.
For now, back outside, nice warm sunny day!
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: gary.a.ayres on May 19, 2021, 09:04:38 PM
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on May 20, 2021, 04:01:56 AM
Chris.....just thinking about basic pump engineering where 2 or more pistons displace fluid into a common discharge  :hammerbash:

Now I understand each cylinder has it's own check valve bank, however to maintain efficiency, check valves are located on intermediate discharge ports to stop the pressurized fluid from being forced backwards....I believe these may have been necessary due principally due to the huge volumes of fluid involved within the common discharge

This 3rd check valves could have been located in a common T spool, being for 'easy' service - the Pump Machine Engineer would have seen a brace of pressure gauges with constantly ranging pressure, as the pressure is achieved in 1 cylinder, then decay ...an repeated by 15 x 6 = 90 individual gauge pressure fluctuations per minute, if the machine was 15 RPM

I am sure you understand my thought the check valves are in the two intermediate pipe spools

Derek

Oops, my error.. :facepalm: :Doh:....there should also be a check valve [shown] on the discharge spool of the 3rd piston as it is needed to stop pressured fluid going backwards to the opposite body of 3 pistons in the other 1/2 of the pump components
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 20, 2021, 02:52:55 PM
Hi Derek,
There is absolutely not another check valve in the pipes like you show. If they did, that pipe would have to have been a lot larger diameter to put in another huge array of small check valves - they did not have the technology to make a single large check valve, maybe they do today in pipelines, I don't know.


Here is a cutaway view of what they did do, this is taken directly from the original builder blueprints, just converted to a 3D model:

(https://i.postimg.cc/90NjTP7F/Valve-Cutaway.jpg)

A description of the operation for any interested. The orange arrow in lower right shows one pump cylinder with the side wall cut away to show the plunger inside. The purple arrow shows one of the two valve housings for that cylinder cut away, with the inlet pipe coming in from the left. The water, under slight pressure since this chamber is a little lower than the level of the lake outside the building, would be drawn in through the lower check valves, red arrow, as the plunger goes up. When the plunger reached the top and stopped, those lower check valves would close, they are spring loaded valves that look a lot like an IC engine valve.  When the plunger pushed down again forcing the water out of the pump chamber, the water would flow through the upper bank of check valves shown by the green arrow, and out through the output pipe (blue arrow). The connection of the output pipe to the chamber above the green arrow was cut away so the valves would show. In that upper chamber, shown where the orange circle is, they piped in compressed air to act as a buffer for the changing pressures and prevent water hammering. The air partially filled the top of that chamber. House type pumps on wells have the same feature. There is another air chamber like that on the output pipes where they meet in the big Y pipe to the right, not shown in this picture.
They did not use check valves in the common pipes between these housings. Maybe they would on more modern systems? The three pump plungers are worked by the engine pistons above, so they are 120 degrees out of phase with each other. That means that the flow in the pipes IS fluctuating some, would be the combination of the three sine waves created by the three pumps, with less total variation than there would be from one pump acting alone. The air-filled force chamber reduced the bouncing of the water flow but it would still be there.

Derek, back to your original question, while a more modern system may be designed differently given the way they can computer-model the flows to make it more efficient, for early 1900s this is what they had. It had to work well enough since it ran till about 1980.  Its fascinating to compare it in size to the electrically driven turbine pumps they replaced these engines with.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sxL1nZP4/DSC_7535.jpg)
These pumps sit right next to the old steam pumps, in one of the bays they had left to add more steam pumps for future expansion needs. About the same footprint on the floor as one engine/pump, a tiny fraction of the height, and they feed a city that has grown a lot.
Now, let me say that I am NOT a fluidics expert in any way, except how to drain a beer glass. The design of a more modern plunger pump system is way beyond me - might be a good discussion topic over in MJM's thermodynamics discussion thread!
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 20, 2021, 03:01:39 PM
Realized that if I cut away less on the left it shows the output pipes better:
(https://i.postimg.cc/hj6kt4Wf/Valve-Cutaway2.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on May 20, 2021, 04:47:08 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 20, 2021, 08:10:23 PM
Okay, finally ready to show the full assembly sequence (well, most of it, still need to screw in the last two horizontal pipes and the Y pipes at the ends). This sequence was spread over the last couple of days, and included a couple backtracks when I realized I had put a part on backwards.  To start, there was the collection of pump chambers, housings, and check valve bits. More than would fit on the table for one photo! These are about 1/3 of the pieces:

(https://i.postimg.cc/mZqMNPGt/IMG-9362.jpg)
First step was to slide in the horizontal outflow pipe with its tee fittings, through the force chamber housings (upper housings, the ones with the domed top), and screw in the connector blocks. The pipes/tees allowed enough room to tilt the parts far enough to make it easy to run in the screws. There is a gasket betwen the block and the flange on the tee.

(https://i.postimg.cc/FHXL8wzv/IMG-9367.jpg)
With all three blocks on each pipe, the pipes were rotated back to their normal position.
(https://i.postimg.cc/LX5YjpCt/IMG-9370.jpg)
Then came the upper plate, which covers the top of the outflow check valve chamber. The four screws were run through the gasket, then screwed into the bottom of the connector block. The three long pieces of threaded rod were also in the plate, which made a handy place to hold on to the plate.

(https://i.postimg.cc/xdtNkCRj/IMG-9373.jpg)
Here is one set of three force chambers with the outflow pipe, connector blocks, and cover plates in place. The gasket rings were pushed on over the threaded rods. These will seal to the outflow check valve chambers.

(https://i.postimg.cc/GhyDMbcz/IMG-9375.jpg)
Next the outflow check valve chambers were added. Before sliding them onto the threaded rods, the four stainless steel balls were put into position in each one, and the chambers slid into place while holding the parts up so the balls would not fall out. Once each chamber was in place, the next gasket ring was added to hold it there. With the parts held in place, the assembly could be tipped upside down without the balls falling out due to the posts between the holes. You can just see some of the ball bearings through the holes in the right hand chamber in the next photo.

(https://i.postimg.cc/W3yDnHCQ/IMG-9377.jpg)
With both upper assemblies up to that point, they were set aside and so the lower assemblies could be started. In the next photo, one of the lower housings is slid onto the pipe coming out of the pump chamber. You can see the two screw holes in the end of the pipe, this will hold the intake check valve chamber.

(https://i.postimg.cc/rp8tFW5Y/IMG-9363.jpg)
And, you guessed it, the intake chamber was screwed into place next, with a gasket sealing the joint to the pipe.
(https://i.postimg.cc/L8k1pvg1/IMG-9364.jpg)
The socket head screws were just far enough in to allow a ball-end hex wrench to tighten them up most of the way, finished with the short-L end of the wrench for final tightness. You can see the posts that keep the ball bearings from going too far out of position between each hole, including the two extra that keep them from rolling down the pipe into the pump.
At this point, the lower assembly of one pump chamber and two lower housings could be slid onto the appropriate set of the threaded rods from the upper assembly, and another gasket ring added. This is where I messed up at first and put the first set on the wrong end, which meant the intake pipes went out below the outflow pipes, rather than the other end. Got a couple more steps in, and had to backtrack to here and try it again.   :slap: In this picture its on the correct way, with the capped end of the intake pipes below the outflow end.

(https://i.postimg.cc/hv7X30qh/IMG-9380.jpg)
So, here is a look up the bottom of the lower chamber, during the assembly process. The threaded rods have come through the intake chamber, and at this point things have to be held to keep everything in place.
(https://i.postimg.cc/NLqKhrgD/IMG-9381.jpg)
Then, the next gasket can be added to keep it there (the holes in the gasket are a snug fit on the threads).
(https://i.postimg.cc/qBtQTVJ6/IMG-9382.jpg)
Finally (at least for as far as I have gotten so far) the bottom chamber and its connector block can be added and nuts run in on the ends of the threaded rods. These bottom chambers transition from the connector block hole to the larger area of the check valve, these chambers are just open on the inside, no moving parts.
(https://i.postimg.cc/CMW7MP5P/IMG-9383.jpg)
With all three sets of pumps assembled, it could be stood back up and admired for a while:
(https://i.postimg.cc/xTMRXvb0/IMG-9384.jpg)
Next steps will be to slide the intake pipes/tees into the lower pipes in the housings, add gaskets and screw them to the connector blocks. That set will be more of a pain, since the screws will have to be tightened with the short end L on the hex wrench, lots of 1/4 turns for each. If I had been thinking ahead just a little better I would have threaded the bottom of the lowest chamber, and run longer screws through the connector blocks so they could be added to the tees first then swun into place like the top ones were. Oh well, next time I make one of these.... Um, probably wont!
After those pipes are added, I can then bolt it all down to the base plate, that will be several gazillion more screws through all those holes in the bottom flanges on the housings, and then reinstall the vertical frames again.  I did do a pressure test on the outflow pipes, blowing in the barbed tube fittings to ensure the check valves were all sealing - they were!  After all that, just 47.23 million more parts to this build, the shop elves are already demanding raises and more pretzels to go with the truckloads of beer they are bringing in. Fine by me if they'd share! 
 :cheers:


Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RReid on May 20, 2021, 08:43:28 PM
Quote
the shop elves are already demanding raises and more pretzels to go with the truckloads of beer they are bringing in

Yeah, and I'm running low on popcorn. Really fantastic progress Chris!  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: scc on May 20, 2021, 08:55:28 PM
More WOWS as previous :popcorn: :popcorn:       Terry
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: gary.a.ayres on May 20, 2021, 08:58:59 PM
Phenomenal work.

 :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: EricB on May 20, 2021, 09:12:26 PM
I'm just amazed that you got all those parts inside the housings. Great work! :whoohoo:

Eric
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on May 20, 2021, 11:24:07 PM
Very impressive, Chris!  Lot's of screws and nuts and things.  Lot's of pieces in general!    :ThumbsUp:

Thanks for the detailed step by step.  It was neat to see how you made all those pieces come together.  :popcorn: :popcorn:

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Don1966 on May 20, 2021, 11:35:47 PM
Dog, Dog , Dog….your persistence and speed of your work is incredible. The details work is awesome and I just can’t fathom just how you put all this time into a project. And did I say that ……..I ………………likeeeeeee…….. :Love:




 :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on May 21, 2021, 12:42:59 AM
I think I have finally got it Chris.......  :hammerbash:

In my mock up, we have the suction stroke of the 3rd water piston as shown in the fully retracted TDC so to allow water to be drawn from the lower header pipe, through the first set of check valves, and the height of the water lifted is limited by suction to the stroke of the water piston

The upper set of check valves simply lets the huge pocket of air to pass up into the massively large air chamber, and the water level is contained between the 2 sets of check valve plates....this contained volume is that pressurized on each stroke of each water piston into the system

On the commencement of the pressure stroke, the water commences to be pressurised against both plates of check valves, and so the water is forced into the discharge spool on its way as pressurized water for the City

Please confirm is this is aligned with your thinking?

So from this, I fully understand there are no additional sets of check valves in the pump system set itself. The could be more check valves and huge water accumulators remote for the pump station

Massive build Chris.......keep going  :cheers:  :popcorn: :cheers:

Derek

PS...I had read about multiple check valves in each bank, however had never seen or understood the detail as shown the cut-away images from today   :embarassed:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 21, 2021, 02:43:57 AM
Thanks guys! I am very relieved that it all fit okay, I did have to trim just a little off the bases of the connector blocks, I had guessed at the compressed thickness of the gaskets and wound up using the next thickness up. Getting the final gaskets and screws into the bottom horizontal pipes will be a bit of a pain, but not too bad. The elves can teach me new words when we drop screws down into the housings...!

Derek, I think you are very close. That top force chamber, according to the descriptions from the museums of the water works that I have read, were only about 1/4 to 1/3 full of air at the very top, the air was well above the outflow pipe top, about the level of th bottom of the word 'air' in your picture. That little pipe coming in from the left comes from the air compressor that could add/remove air from the chambers. And yes, as the pump plunger went up, the lower pressure on the incoming water would force open the bottom check valves while the higher pressure in the outflow pipe would push back down on the upper check valves, keeping them closed. That would draw water through that chamber you outlined in blue, and into the pump chamber in the center.
Then, on the downstroke, the plunger would be raising the pressure in those middle chambers, forcing the check valves in the lower group closed and the ones in the upper group open, pushing the water up against the output pipes' pressure. That output set of pipes would have constant pressure coming back from the pipes leading out to the city, I assume it would have a column of water up to the height of the water towers and any raised resevoirs that would generate that pressure. I do recall seeing big gate valves on the input and output pipes so they could isolate an engine for service, and you can see a man-hatch on the side of the valve chambers in the pictures, at the level between the upper and lower check valves.

Going from memory there were something like 1320 check valves in each engine - arranged in what I call beehives, those vertical groups on the plates, and each valve is several inches in diameter, have to look back at the plans for exact sizes. The diameter of the chambers themselves is about six feet, the pipes between the chambers are about 32" diameter. Nearly 1000 gallons moved per revolution of the engine, with single-acting pumps. Quite a massive flow per engine, and there were five engines in a row - probably all going at once on the holiday weekend with the big game on, and everyone flushing during the same commercial!   :noidea:
If you go back a few pages to when I posted the links to the engines in Cincinnatti, they had a great animation showing the pumping sequence, but that animation just used one flap to represent the check valve arrays, thier engines/pumps are very similar but a different brand than this one, but the general animation is close enough to this one.

I'm sad to see all my valve asssemblies hidden inside the housings, but glad that I did not have to make 1300+ tiny valves! Just image winding all those tiny springs, cutting all those gaskets, lapping all the valve steps/faces.... Yikes!
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on May 21, 2021, 08:01:37 AM
 :facepalm:  :Jester:...it is your engine Chris , so I should shutup....but :ROFL:.....[you know me  :Lol:..]


Derek

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 21, 2021, 12:46:38 PM
:facepalm: :Jester: ...it is your engine Chris , so I should shutup....but :ROFL: .....[you know me  :Lol: ..]


Derek
Absolutely not, ask away!!   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: MJM460 on May 21, 2021, 01:48:41 PM
Hi Chris, the amazing build just gets better and better.

But even more amazing is your ability to visualise the parts necessary to make them all fit, and create designs that you can successfully fabricate, let alone fit them inside those printed pipe sections.

Centrifugal pumps do not have the check valves that are an inherent part of reciprocating pumps, and don’t need them in order to work.  But it is normally necessary to have a check valve on the discharge of the pump to stop back flow from any pressure remaining in the discharge system when the pump stops.  And particularly when there are parallel pumps, when not all are operating.  It is necessary to prevent this reverse flow as the pump will act as a very efficient, but ungoverned, turbine when reverse flow occurs.  There have been cases of pumps over speeding to destruction when a discharge check valve failed when the pump stopped. 

The check valves in these pumps are just the very big machine version of the ball valves that are an inherent part of a reciprocating pump such as a boiler feed pump that many forum members have built.  It is necessary to use many smaller valves which involve much smaller forces when they stop suddenly on closing.  Big flappers break up on the repeated slamming against the seats.

Derek, is it possible that you have overlooked the discharge header that carries the water out to the distribution system?  Separate pulsation dampeners are provided on the inlet and discharge headers to prevent water hammer from the pulsation as all the mass of water in the whole header, not just the pump cylinder, is accelerates and decelerates in response to the pump strokes. 

I can start a little topic in Thermodynamics thread if more discussion is needed.  As Chris says, ask away.

MJM460

 
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 21, 2021, 04:00:57 PM
Hi MJM,


I think you have nailed it. What I have made is very similar to the boiler feed hand pumps we use, just with sets of four check balls on either side rather than one single set. And yes, there are shutoff gate valves at each end to isolate an engine for service, and another air dampening chamber on the output y pipe. These engines did not have another one on the input pipe, for whatever reason.


I think the flow pulsations and dampening could be a good topic on your thermodynamics thread.

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: propforward on May 21, 2021, 04:51:01 PM
Good heavens! I stopped in for an update, looked at the posts up top of the previous page and nearly fainted! What wonderful work!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 21, 2021, 05:16:21 PM
Good heavens! I stopped in for an update, looked at the posts up top of the previous page and nearly fainted! What wonderful work!
Strap in to the chair, keep your arms and legs inside the car at all times, and SCREAM on the downhill drop!   :Lol:

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 21, 2021, 05:22:06 PM
This morning got started bolting in the first of the lower horizontal input pipes. So far I have 10 of the 12 socket head screws in and tightened down, the last two will wait till I head out on the porch to read-nap for a while and work out the kink in the neck from all that hunching over the housings - handy to be nearsighted, for this kind of work I just take the glasses off and can see the little parts up close!
(https://i.postimg.cc/d0bvY55K/IMG-9387.jpg)

The pairs of screws closer to the opening in the housing (the whole unit is upside down on the table) were able to be started using the ball end on the hex wrench, but the other pairs farther in had to be started with the short L end. With only 1/6 of a turn at a time worth of throw, starting and running in the screws takes a while. Really should have set these up to go in like the other connector blocks, where I could screw them to the pipes and then rotate them down to the plates. Too late for that now, so another couple hours of running in the screws like this. I was worried that there would not be room to make the wrench operate and would have to drill a small hole in the housing, but it just has enough throw for one facet of the wrench at a time.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on May 21, 2021, 06:00:14 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Outstanding progress Chris! and a recommendation for screaming while going downhill too! Hard to beat that on any other hobby forum!  :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: ddmckee54 on May 21, 2021, 06:04:51 PM
Well, if you're going to get into the shoulda-woulda-couldas... Then you shoulda made that access plate shown in the last picture removeable instead of printing it and the rest of the fitting as one part.  Then you woulda had a spot where you coulda reached all the cap screws with a ball-end hex wrench.  20/20 hindsight is a wonderful thing isn't it? Glad it's you and the elves instead of me putting this thing together.  Who's gonna write the service manual for this pump?

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: mklotz on May 21, 2021, 06:10:55 PM
Chris, methinks you need to get a thin, ratcheting insert driver like this...

https://www.amazon.com/Neiko-03044A-Ratcheting-Screwdriver-Close-Quarters/dp/B000XYOUS6/ref=sr_1_31?dchild=1&keywords=thin+ratcheting+hex+driver&qid=1621616082&sr=8-31

My version, which came with my Chapman gun screwdriver set, is only 7/16" thick at its thickest point.  With a slightly abbreviated hex bit, I could slip it into a slot about 1/2" wide.

These type drivers work in both directions although many don't have a reversing switch; you flip it over to drive in the opposite direction.

Not applicable to your current task but perhaps useful to remember for future jobs is the fact that many of the 4mm driver sets come with a flexible driver extension, e.g....

https://www.amazon.com/ORIA-Precision-Screwdriver-Extension-Smartphone/dp/B07RDHLL9H/ref=sr_1_13?dchild=1&keywords=4mm+driver+set&qid=1621616877&sr=8-13
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 21, 2021, 07:15:55 PM
Well, if you're going to get into the shoulda-woulda-couldas... Then you shoulda made that access plate shown in the last picture removeable instead of printing it and the rest of the fitting as one part.  Then you woulda had a spot where you coulda reached all the cap screws with a ball-end hex wrench.  20/20 hindsight is a wonderful thing isn't it? Glad it's you and the elves instead of me putting this thing together.  Who's gonna write the service manual for this pump?

Don
I wish it was that easy - that hatch is at the level of between the input  and output check valves. There is another one on the far side of the force chambers above the check valves. They made those to let a service person (most likely an apprentice! ) climb in and service the valve beehives. If they needed to get underneath the lower valves they could open the pipe cap at the end and crawl down the pipe. For my setup, that doesn't help, the shop elves took one look and stalked off. Sigh.
The service manual will likely be written by the usual drunk dislexic swahili speaking chimpanzee with a broken typewriter!   :LittleDevil:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 21, 2021, 07:27:09 PM
Chris, methinks you need to get a thin, ratcheting insert driver like this...

https://www.amazon.com/Neiko-03044A-Ratcheting-Screwdriver-Close-Quarters/dp/B000XYOUS6/ref=sr_1_31?dchild=1&keywords=thin+ratcheting+hex+driver&qid=1621616082&sr=8-31 (https://www.amazon.com/Neiko-03044A-Ratcheting-Screwdriver-Close-Quarters/dp/B000XYOUS6/ref=sr_1_31?dchild=1&keywords=thin+ratcheting+hex+driver&qid=1621616082&sr=8-31)

My version, which came with my Chapman gun screwdriver set, is only 7/16" thick at its thickest point.  With a slightly abbreviated hex bit, I could slip it into a slot about 1/2" wide.

These type drivers work in both directions although many don't have a reversing switch; you flip it over to drive in the opposite direction.

Not applicable to your current task but perhaps useful to remember for future jobs is the fact that many of the 4mm driver sets come with a flexible driver extension, e.g....

https://www.amazon.com/ORIA-Precision-Screwdriver-Extension-Smartphone/dp/B07RDHLL9H/ref=sr_1_13?dchild=1&keywords=4mm+driver+set&qid=1621616877&sr=8-13 (https://www.amazon.com/ORIA-Precision-Screwdriver-Extension-Smartphone/dp/B07RDHLL9H/ref=sr_1_13?dchild=1&keywords=4mm+driver+set&qid=1621616877&sr=8-13)
Hi Marv,
That little ratchet is the type of thing that would help in a lot of situations. I do have this one, which is made for getting at Ford headlight bolts down inside the frame, it has a gearless clutch inside so it can operate on very small lever angles - I got it during the Marion shovel build, was perfect for getting in between the frame rails. Its too big for this use, but gets a lot of use on the models:
(https://i.postimg.cc/L47W0JQr/IMG-9390.jpg)
I do have a big set of the Wiha drivers, even those are too long for this:
(https://i.postimg.cc/P5bFx2fj/IMG-9394.jpg)
Your post does give me ideas though, need to send this one to my shop elves research division, and have Elfbert Elfstien come up with a quantum ratchet driver. Seems do-able to make a very small one that could take short lengths cut off of hex wrenches and get into smaller spaces. I've never looked into how the stepless clutch ratchets work, imagine its something like the ball clutches I've seen on builds in this forum - might have been on one of the Otto Langen engines? They may be too large a diameter, but maybe with just one ball on axis with the handle. Or just a very small gear with ratchet, needs to be at least 12 teeth to do half-steps of a hex wrench. Would make a good group project design/build for the forum!
For size judging, this is the space I am working in, and the screw is a little over an inch down the tube:
(https://i.postimg.cc/RZxD4jBd/IMG-9396.jpg)
I just finished getting the last two screws in for this side of the pump, next back out for another read/nap on the porch and do another session to start the other side later. Might need cookies too - need to get another bag of them out of the freezer!
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 21, 2021, 07:31:22 PM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Outstanding progress Chris! and a recommendation for screaming while going downhill too! Hard to beat that on any other hobby forum!  :cheers:
:cheers:
(https://i.postimg.cc/j2VF29fR/Image3.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RReid on May 21, 2021, 09:50:20 PM
You might be able to connect your hex stub to your ratchet with a length of soft plastic tubing, like Tygon. That would allow you to turn it from an offset or angled position. A kluge-master's u-joint for low torque applications. Final tightening might need another idea.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 21, 2021, 09:57:28 PM
You might be able to connect your hex stub to your ratchet with a length of soft plastic tubing, like Tygon. That would allow you to turn it from an offset or angled position. A kluge-master's u-joint for low torque applications. Final tightening might need another idea.
That's a possibility!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 22, 2021, 12:27:43 AM
Late afternoon saw the last of the screws in to connect up the lower pipes, so I got it flipped over and set on the base. Started running in all the screws to hold it all down on the base - still a bunch more to go. Here are a few pictures of it so far. Once the rest of the screws are in to the base, I can start putting the frame rails back on again.
(https://i.postimg.cc/WbMY5TFV/IMG-9398.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/P5T3c9Yw/IMG-9399.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/7Z9sy9nQ/IMG-9400.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: propforward on May 22, 2021, 02:40:44 AM
 :praise2: :NotWorthy:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Craig DeShong on May 22, 2021, 03:06:01 AM
This looks absolutely fantastic Chris.   :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on May 22, 2021, 04:23:46 AM
Yes....looks supurb  :ThumbsUp:. ...

However I still believe the check valves in the upper plate are of different internal construction  :hammerbash: to check valves in the lower plate

The lower check valves open under vacuum, an admit water to the volunetric capacity equalling the swept volume of the water piston

So, could the upper plate check valves be bi-directioal? :whoohoo:........[free floating ball]......which would fall under vacuum of the suction stroke, and also allow water to enter the air chamber, but this is limited in water height by the stroke/volume of the water piston

Then, during the pressure stroke the lower check valve closes, and the bi-directional upper check valve also closes so sending the pressurized water on its merry way, leaving the water [level previously explained] trapped in the air chamber? :Doh:
--------------

The bi-directioanl check valves would look externally to be identical, but internally have different porting or the omission of a spring in the ball chamber....so is there anything hidden in those original drawings :happyreader:?

Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 22, 2021, 02:32:34 PM
Yes....looks supurb  :ThumbsUp: . ...

However I still believe the check valves in the upper plate are of different internal construction  :hammerbash: to check valves in the lower plate

The lower check valves open under vacuum, an admit water to the volunetric capacity equalling the swept volume of the water piston

So, could the upper plate check valves be bi-directioal? :whoohoo: ........[free floating ball]......which would fall under vacuum of the suction stroke, and also allow water to enter the air chamber, but this is limited in water height by the stroke/volume of the water piston

Then, during the pressure stroke the lower check valve closes, and the bi-directional upper check valve also closes so sending the pressurized water on its merry way, leaving the water [level previously explained] trapped in the air chamber? :Doh:
--------------

The bi-directioanl check valves would look externally to be identical, but internally have different porting or the omission of a spring in the ball chamber....so is there anything hidden in those original drawings :happyreader: ?

Derek
You are over-thinking it - the valves are the same on upper and lower plate. Both operate under pressure differences between the upper and lower sides. When the suction is applied from the plunger on the upstroke, there is lower pressure between the plates, and higher pressure below the lower plate and above the upper plate. That will push the valve up on the lower plate and down on the upper plate. On the downstroke of the plunger, there is now higher pressure in the space between the plates, which pushes down on the lower valves and up on the upper valves, opening the upper/closing the lower. Also - key point here - there are springs on every valve to help close them.

This may help too - here is a picture of one of the 'beehives' of valves that I had described in an earlier post. Each beehive is covered with rows of valves, 15 in all. The hive is hollow, and sits above a hole in one of the plates.
(https://i.postimg.cc/vHpFBfDv/Valve-Cage.jpg)

Each valve look slike this. On the left is an exploded view, right is the assembled view.  The green part is a metal base, with openings for the water to flow through. Above that is a rubber gasket piece shown in purple. Above that is the valve plate in orange, that is held down by the spring above it. At the top is a post with adjusting nut, that post screws into the bottom base, and retains the spring/valve plate. The plate is free to slide on the post, but held down by the spring.

(https://i.postimg.cc/GhBndq32/Valve-Exploded.jpg)


This arrangement works the same on top and bottom plates, the valve moved by the pressure differential during the pump strokes. Hope that helps?
 :cheers: 
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: kvom on May 22, 2021, 02:38:02 PM
So water passes between the purple and orange parts when open?
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 22, 2021, 02:45:33 PM
So water passes between the purple and orange parts when open?
Thats my understanding - the rubber piece, in purple, has the openings in it to let the water through, the orange plate is pushed up the post by the pressure. The pressure needed to open the valve could be adjusted by the nut above the spring - that was probably adjusted periodically as the rubber piece wore over time.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 22, 2021, 04:13:37 PM
And more reassembled - got the lower frames back on with the flat plates on top. Those plates will hold the three large base plates for the engine proper, with the crankshaft and supports for the upper engine frames.
(https://i.postimg.cc/brzsD4J1/IMG-9401.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/sxw1pKQq/IMG-9404.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/NG4yqGJD/IMG-9403.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on May 22, 2021, 08:53:25 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Great looking subassembly!  :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 22, 2021, 09:26:13 PM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Great looking subassembly!  :cheers:
Thanks CNR, got to be the most involved base for an engine I have ever done!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 23, 2021, 03:56:55 PM
Yesterday I got the big gate valves for the intake pipes designed and 3D printed, painted and installed this morning. Very important valves, since these pipes drew water from the lake, and were below the surface of the lake. There is a little building out in the lake where the intakes and initial screens/filters were. One thing I noticed on the real engine was that the shutoff wheels are not reachable from any of the catwalks, but they did have portable ladders scattered around that would reach them.

(https://i.postimg.cc/wBzQ0JX6/IMG-9405.jpg)
Speaking of catwalks, that is one of the next items to be made, the lowest platforms. These sit on top of the intake pipes between the pump chambers. There will be several other levels of catwalks higher up on the engine.
(https://i.postimg.cc/qqNszGTG/Pump-Catwalks.jpg)
The railings are simple shapes, but I will need a lot of them, the upper catwalks have them too. Going to be yet another jig to make...  Also, I'm turning down the stock for the pump plungers, then will attach the blocks on top of them to take the connecting rods that go up to the crossheads. Pictures on that later.


Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on May 23, 2021, 04:32:43 PM
Re the railings- the "joiner" or "connector" pieces look like three variations -
1. one hole vertical, one hole horizontal
2. one hole vertical, two holes horizontal at 180 deg  apart
3. one hole vertical, two holes horizontal at 90 deg apart

Might be a Shapeways bronze part job, with variations in the horiz hole pattern to make the 3 variants. 3D metal printing would allow a nice looking spherical joiner body, simulating a cast original shape (or whatever shape it was). Bronze would allow you to soft solder the railing rods (maybe they are brass wire or tube?)  to the joiners for a nice robust railing, against the pokey overscale fingers of observers, or to withstand elf gymnastics.  :Lol:

The gate valves and operating gear look great! I wonder what the full size gate weighed, inside the existing valves?  :thinking: probably close to a ton, or more. Glad they had a gear reduction and leadscrew to operate those!  Couple of   :DrinkPint: needed after a shift wrestling those valves.

 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 23, 2021, 05:28:12 PM
Hi CNR,


Casting those connector pieces would cost a fortune given that I'll need dozens of them. More fun to set up a couple jigs to make them from brass bar stock anyway. The straight sections of the posts as well as the railings will be stainless rod. Some serious mass production of parts. And don't forget the bases, to attach to the floors.


Those gate valves must have been heavy, 36 inch diameter, and heavy enough to take the pressure.  The plans show the size and location, but no internal details. Either that page is missing or it was an off the shelf part from another maker. They made all the other valves, so maybe that page was just missing.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on May 23, 2021, 07:17:05 PM
Hi Chris, I had not thought too much about costs with Shapeways. If you need lots of the connectors, yes it could get costly. Is the shape of the connectors spherical or jam-jar 'cylinder with shaped ends' shape? Either way not hard to make a batch from bar stock when all set up. Do you have a toolpost drill spindle accessory for the Sherline, or a Dremel mount bracket? this might speed things up by enabling the (eventually) horizontal holes to be cross-drilled while the bar / connector blank is still chucked. Just food for thought.

Now mind you with as many elves as you have in your shop, they may get through the cross drilling pretty quickly!  :Lol:     :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 23, 2021, 07:37:45 PM
Hi Chris, I had not thought too much about costs with Shapeways. If you need lots of the connectors, yes it could get costly. Is the shape of the connectors spherical or jam-jar 'cylinder with shaped ends' shape? Either way not hard to make a batch from bar stock when all set up. Do you have a toolpost drill spindle accessory for the Sherline, or a Dremel mount bracket? this might speed things up by enabling the (eventually) horizontal holes to be cross-drilled while the bar / connector blank is still chucked. Just food for thought.

Now mind you with as many elves as you have in your shop, they may get through the cross drilling pretty quickly!  :Lol:     :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:


I don't have a toolpost drill setup, at least yet!  These post tops are a lot like chain link fence connectors are today, pipe fits in bottom and side holes of the fitting, a rounded top. Pretty simple shape to make. The way I have done cross holes on round rod in the past is to drill a hole on a block the size of the stock, then turn the block on its side and drill a second hole the size of the rail stock. Then can insert the bar for the fitting, use the block as a drill guide for the cross hole, no spot drilling or flat milling needed. Swap to the lathe, shape the end and part off. Repeat over and over. The parted off fittings can be chucked in the lathe to drill the blind bottom hole. Fiddly to make so many, but simple quick steps that the elves can do. With frequent cookie bribes!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on May 23, 2021, 08:17:44 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:  Sounds good Chris! Are you at making / buying 100 dozen cookies a week yet to keep production levels up? :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 23, 2021, 08:38:37 PM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:  Sounds good Chris! Are you at making / buying 100 dozen cookies a week yet to keep production levels up? :Lol:
Only 50 dozen...  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 23, 2021, 10:08:52 PM

Started in on the pump plungers, turned from some stainless steel. The top of them tapers in, and will get a rectangular block attached that will have the long rods up to the crosshead attached at each corner. Waiting on some bar stock for those blocks, so after this will skip over to making the jigs for the railing posts.

(https://i.postimg.cc/PxWnp0Wt/IMG-9409.jpg)
The three plungers set in place in the pump chambers - each chamber has an o-ring in a shallow groove at the top, with a compressing rin bolted down over it. Tightening the bolts will squeeze the rings if needed to expand them, they are a good sliding fit with the rings just tight enough to hold them like a piston ring groove.
(https://i.postimg.cc/TwMXPTW7/IMG-9410.jpg)
As I recall, the throw on the pistons is about 2", so these plungers will have that much travel.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: MJM460 on May 24, 2021, 10:52:12 AM
Hi Chris, it might be a very complex base plate, but at least when you finish the engine, you won’t have to wonder what to drive with it in order to put it to work.

Do you know by any chance the diameter of the intake and how far the pipe goes out into the lake?  The “Y” fitting that branches to the headers each side of the engine looks like all three flanges are equal size, but there may be a reducer from say a 48 inch inlet line.

MJM460

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 24, 2021, 12:40:17 PM
Hi MJM,  the intakes down each side are 36" diameter, where they join at the base of the Y they are 48". Same on the output pipes. The angle on the camera makes them look the same but they are larger at the ends of the Y's. Not quite double the capacity between large and small pipes.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: kvom on May 24, 2021, 01:16:55 PM
On the intake valves, did you print the threaded rod, or just add it?  If printed it's pretty interesting to get that detail.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 24, 2021, 02:12:06 PM
On the intake valves, did you print the threaded rod, or just add it?  If printed it's pretty interesting to get that detail.
No, that's lengths of some 4-40 threaded rod. I didn't think threads that small would come out well. The gears were printed, look good but wouldn't wear well!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steam guy willy on May 24, 2021, 02:38:01 PM
Hi Chris , this is looking absolutely superb and I am lost for words ....great craftsmanship and skill with all these parts ...I am quite envious ...

Willy
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: tvoght on May 24, 2021, 02:54:05 PM
Chris, As far as I can tell, your techniques for combining metalworking and 3d printing to make detailed functioning scale models are... Would ground-breaking be too strong a term? I'm increasingly fascinated with what you're doing here.   --Tim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 24, 2021, 05:09:55 PM
Thanks Tim/Willy!  Much appreciated!

Just made and printed the drawing sheets for the two platforms at the pump level, also counted up the total number of railing posts that I need for all four of the platform levels on the model. Only 156 of them.....  :paranoia:    I better get in another busload of shop elves from Rent-An-Elf for the week!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 24, 2021, 08:44:33 PM
As previously discussed, since I am waiting for some bar stock for the pump plunger end plates, I am skipping on to make the elf-barrow full of railing posts that will be needed for the railings on all the platforms up the engine. The drilling jig for the top posts was made from a scrap bit of steel block, first drilling a 1/8" hole in the end to take the bar stock used to make the railing top fittings:
(https://i.postimg.cc/DzbfsZ6r/IMG-9412.jpg)
With the mill table in/out axis locked, the block was then turned on its side and a 1/16" hole drilled through the block, positioned so that it would leave enough of the bar stock below the hole to form the ball in the end and leave a shoulder to go over the vertical post of the railing. This hole goes all the way through the block, so any chips can fall through while drilling the bars. After drilling this hole, I ran a 1/8" hand reamer in the other hole to clean up the burs this drill left on the inside.

(https://i.postimg.cc/DZr2jMtm/IMG-9414.jpg)
Then cut some 1/8" brass roundbar into short lengths to help speed up the process - with a handfull of short lengths, I can do each step on both ends of all the bars, then move to the other machine for the next step, saving some back and forth'ing. The ends of each bar are pushed into the hole in the block all the way, and the drill run through it. The steel block acts as a drill guide, so no need for a spot drill or milling a flat on the side of the bar. This step goes very quick.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZYLb6X8M/IMG-9415.jpg)
Result is a nicely centered hole in each end of the bar. The extra stock between the hole and the end of the bar will become the bottom of the ball and the shoulder below it.

(https://i.postimg.cc/8cwTDrkS/IMG-9416.jpg)
Test fit of the 1/16 steel rod to be used as the railing:
(https://i.postimg.cc/288zGTT8/IMG-9417.jpg)
Then over to the lathe to drill a shallow hole in each end, and part it off:
(https://i.postimg.cc/PJddBMjy/IMG-9419.jpg)
Here is the first one, loctited to the end of a 1" length of the 1/16th steel rod, which will be the vertical rail post. I'll need to cut a cup full of 1" lengths for this.
(https://i.postimg.cc/cHyxcSkV/IMG-9420.jpg)
Stopping there for now to let the loctite cure, and test to see if that holds well enough to shape the brass on the lathe - should be, but I dont want to make dozens then find out otherwise. So, some hard work for the late afternoon, go out on the porch with the elves and read in the rocking chair! :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 24, 2021, 10:51:26 PM
Methinks this'll work!  Let the loctite cure up for a while, quick spin on the lathe to take the lower end down with parting tool and round it with a file.

(https://i.postimg.cc/vHGXq24j/IMG-9421.jpg)
Could be a good place to grind up a forming tool to get them all the same.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dave Otto on May 25, 2021, 12:28:58 AM
Hi Chris
Why not make a form tool from a piece of 01 flat stock? in the end it would be faster and you would get more consistent results.

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 25, 2021, 12:34:44 AM
Hi Chris
Why not make a form tool from a piece of 01 flat stock? in the end it would be faster and you would get more consistent results.

Dave
May well do that, given the number I need to make. I have several hss tool blanks, could grind one to suit.   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Don1966 on May 25, 2021, 01:36:31 AM
I guess I m just going to have to get me some of those cookies you get giving those elves. The way you are turning out parts is making me dizzy and I need some energy…and did I say ………I………..likeeeeee…… ? :Love:


  :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on May 25, 2021, 02:54:02 AM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

With that extra busload of elves, you may need a bigger cookie oven, or set up bulk ordering of cookies from store or bakery!! Not a bad problem to have.  :shrug::Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 25, 2021, 04:29:02 AM
Too bad none of my elves are named Keebler. Or Amos. Or Crocker...  They did chip in (pun) and buy me a stand mixer so I can make them more cookies...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: ddmckee54 on May 25, 2021, 06:34:46 PM
They PROBABLY just want to "borrow" the mixer to mix the next batch of mash for their still.  I'm told it has a distinctive aroma so you'll know when they use it.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 26, 2021, 12:02:37 AM
They PROBABLY just want to "borrow" the mixer to mix the next batch of mash for their still.  I'm told it has a distinctive aroma so you'll know when they use it.

Don
Just great. Who told the elves about the show Moonshiners? Thanks a LOT!    :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 26, 2021, 12:08:19 AM
Plugging away on the railing parts - got all the vertical posts cut using the little Proxxon chop saw I bought secondhand, with a twirl against the grinding wheel to take the burr off the ends that the abrasive wheel leaves. Also got about 70 of the top pieces drilled and parted off, thats almost half of what I need. They are going quick, about 35 an hour with lots of breaks for reading outside.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ncn4v9D4/IMG-9422.jpg)
It doesn't show well in the picture, but the top pieces are all drilled on the end to fit the posts and cross drilled for the rails. The bar stock for the pump plunger tops came today, as well as some sheet aluminum for the catwalk decks. The boxes and tubes the aluminum came in (yes, they split the shipment into three containers, all from the same location 60 miles from here) weighed more than the aluminum inside!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Don1966 on May 26, 2021, 05:02:40 AM
Dog did you say plugging away now come on man your not plugging your jetting through is more like it..


 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 26, 2021, 01:37:40 PM
Dog did you say plugging away now come on man your not plugging your jetting through is more like it..


 :cheers:
Don
:Lol:   The loop-de-loops in the jet are fun...   :Lol:
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: ddmckee54 on May 26, 2021, 02:55:40 PM
They PROBABLY just want to "borrow" the mixer to mix the next batch of mash for their still.  I'm told it has a distinctive aroma so you'll know when they use it.

Don
Just great. Who told the elves about the show Moonshiners? Thanks a LOT!    :Lol:

Wasn't me, maybe it was the other Don?  Yeah, Yeah - that's it, it was the other Don.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 26, 2021, 11:59:34 PM
Today I got the rest of the top caps for the railings drilled and parted off, then as we discussed I made the first form tool to shape the very top of the caps to a dome. A very small radius, I started to cut it into the end of an old HSS cutter, then finished it using a diamond dental bur in the high speed rotary tool. Hard to get a decent picture of bits that small in the lathe, here is the best one that came out. It took a few tries to get the cutter positioned right, very sensitive to height since its right at the center of rotation.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Zqy3vc2V/IMG-9430.jpg)
I'm going to go through all the parts and round over the end like this, then will grind the shape in for the lower end of the cap where it curves back in towards the post. Will take a while, looks like I'm shaping two a minute with this setup, and there are 156 to do...!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: EricB on May 27, 2021, 12:09:00 AM
Today I got the rest of the top caps for the railings drilled and parted off, then as we discussed I made the first form tool to shape the very top of the caps to a dome. A very small radius, I started to cut it into the end of an old HSS cutter, then finished it using a diamond dental bur in the high speed rotary tool. Hard to get a decent picture of bits that small in the lathe, here is the best one that came out. It took a few tries to get the cutter positioned right, very sensitive to height since its right at the center of rotation.

I like to grind several profiles into the same tool to save time.

Eric
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 27, 2021, 12:16:00 AM
Today I got the rest of the top caps for the railings drilled and parted off, then as we discussed I made the first form tool to shape the very top of the caps to a dome. A very small radius, I started to cut it into the end of an old HSS cutter, then finished it using a diamond dental bur in the high speed rotary tool. Hard to get a decent picture of bits that small in the lathe, here is the best one that came out. It took a few tries to get the cutter positioned right, very sensitive to height since its right at the center of rotation.

I like to grind several profiles into the same tool to save time.

Eric
Wow - some fancy turning there! I was thinking sort of along those lines with this one, though just in reusing the tool blank, there is enough on the right side to cut in the shape for the bottom shape. Thinking that I would turn in one at a time though, so I could set the depth once and just run the tool side to side, given how many will need to be turned. This is the first time I've made a form tool for anything other than gear and ratchet teeth, for one-off shapes I tend to just use needle files on the spinning part. Guess thats the sculptor in me showing through!
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 27, 2021, 07:09:02 PM
Got all the post top parts shaped at the outer end today, and have made the form tool for the lower end, here is a picture during the refinement process on that.

(https://i.postimg.cc/Y0HXpw1H/IMG-9435.jpg)
Given the shape of the area to cut away, and how small the post is, it worked out best to have the part out from the chuck about 1/8" and run the tool in at the left end, then move it in sweeps to the right, going in a little deeper each time. Otherwise it puts so much force on the part that it bends the post. Think I have the shape of the cutter dialed in now, and have got the first 20 parts cut. Lot of work for such tiny parts, but in the end the railings will be a great detail to have at the correct size.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on May 27, 2021, 08:06:46 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on May 27, 2021, 09:56:03 PM
Yeah, tough to do much turning on such a little part!  Nice work Chris!  20 done, 200 to go! :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 28, 2021, 02:06:43 AM
Yeah, takes as long to start/stop and swap parts s it does to make the cuts,  making batches of 20 or 30 then taking a break, coming back in later for another batch. Only had four so far that didn't have enough loctite in the hole and popped loose. They are re loctited for next day, none ruined so far. The holes are only .100 deep so not a lot of surface area.




Then, after all these (160) top caps are done, bases to make! Those are simple flange plates, will be quick to make.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 28, 2021, 06:48:03 PM
The top caps are all done, so on to the base flanges for the railings. These are much simpler to make, all on the lathe with drill and parting tool. Drill a hole in the end to match the railing post diameter, then cut a step in the end and part off. Repeat 155 more times (60 done so far, these are going quickly)
(https://i.postimg.cc/sXLkmj0y/IMG-9436.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/prng1wgj/IMG-9438.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on May 28, 2021, 07:41:08 PM
You're a machine, Chris!  :praise2:

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 28, 2021, 07:50:04 PM
You're a machine, Chris!  :praise2:

Kim
A chocolate-powered machine!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Mcgyver on May 28, 2021, 10:30:25 PM
wow, what a great build!  36 pages in and I just notice it! talk about asleep at the switch
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 29, 2021, 10:01:39 PM
Thanks for stopping by Mcgyver! 




Today I got the rest of the railing bases made, can get started on the pump plunger tops now, after I finish some rc sub parts...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 30, 2021, 04:01:39 PM
So back on the pump plungers today, and have a very dull photo, starting to size up the stock for the plunger top plates. These will have a hole bored in the center to fit the top of the plunger, a hole in each corner for the rods that go up to the crosshead to move the plungers, and some ribbing milled in between all the holes.
(https://i.postimg.cc/KjhBZhsF/IMG-9442.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on May 30, 2021, 07:41:54 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Craig DeShong on May 31, 2021, 03:30:25 AM
This model is absolutely impressive in its current state; can’t imagine the show-stopper it will be when you finish it.
 :popcorn:  :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 31, 2021, 02:46:40 PM
This model is absolutely impressive in its current state; can’t imagine the show-stopper it will be when you finish it.
 :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
I shifted the model so far on the bench, its already getting to be a heavy beast! Once done, going to need the elves to call in some friends to move it.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 31, 2021, 02:55:36 PM
After getting the blanks for the plunger top caps trimmed to size, the center holes were bored on the lathe then the corner holes drilled on the mill:
(https://i.postimg.cc/52LPDrwM/IMG-9443.jpg)
Test fit on one of the plungers
(https://i.postimg.cc/QMD6DqbK/IMG-9444.jpg)
Then started in milling the top/bottom faces for the recess pattern, first the sides at 90 degrees
(https://i.postimg.cc/85KwhgVL/IMG-9445.jpg)
then angled the vise for the diagonals - took two setups, since the blocks are not square, so the lines are at 43 degrees
(https://i.postimg.cc/W3bXFbx2/IMG-9446.jpg)
Ready to loctite and cross pin the blocks onto the plungers - still need to round the corners on the sander.
(https://i.postimg.cc/LsVx8ZCC/IMG-9450.jpg)
I also got the two platforms cut out of sheet aluminum, these platforms will sit between the pumps on top of the intake pipes. They gave acess to the pumps and the seals around the tops of them. There will also be stairs leading up to the platforms. The bottoms of the panels are supported by angle stock riveted in place with some 1mm brass rivets. Slow going to cut the angle stock so it can be folded for the corners, but its faster to handle one piece than dealing with four separate short pieces. Now to make 7 more of those and the longer cross pieces that go across the middle

(https://i.postimg.cc/Wzd88Y2C/IMG-9449.jpg)
Closer view, also shows the rivet squeezer in the background

(https://i.postimg.cc/Pf72JHyj/IMG-9448.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Firebird on May 31, 2021, 05:49:41 PM
Hi Chris

I'm still following along  :popcorn: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:

Can you show a little more of the rivet squeezer please.

Cheers

Rich
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 31, 2021, 08:45:50 PM
Hi Chris

I'm still following along  :popcorn: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:

Can you show a little more of the rivet squeezer please.

Cheers

Rich
Sure thing Rich, very handy tool. I built mine after seeing one in another thread here several years ago. This one has an added extension option for getting into tight spaces. It will appear in my column in Live Steam sometime in the next couple years, not sure when. In the meantime, I've attached the plan sheet for it. The dimensions on the U shaped head can be changed to suit your bar stock, but the spacing on the holes for the moving parts should be done as is, they take some care to lay out. The top threaded anvil can be run in and out to suit the thickness of the material. It works with rivets that have one end formed already, and it squeezes down and forms the other end - cut the shank of the rivets to stick out a diameter or so. Works great on brass and copper rivets, never tried it on annealed steel but should work on small ones okay. Very handy device, easy to make. Enjoy!
Chris
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on May 31, 2021, 10:29:00 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Liked the plunger top pics! Must be massive things in the real engines.  :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 01, 2021, 12:35:57 AM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Liked the plunger top pics! Must be massive things in the real engines.  :cheers:
The real plungers themselves are 37-1/2" in diameter and nearly 7 feet long (stroke is 66 inches), the top caps are over 14" thick and almost 4 feet across! Not solid blocks, all are hollow castings, but quite thick. Its amazing to see all the massive pieces on these engines, then the much more modest sizes on the Corliss valve levers/linkages.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 02, 2021, 02:51:03 PM
Once the first angle bar was made to check the distances between cuts, the rest were pretty quick to mark and cut, remembering that half of them need to be mirrored for the opposite corners.
(https://i.postimg.cc/BQ0StLn2/IMG-9451.jpg)
They were all drilled and riveted like the first one. Here is one of the platforms set in place on the intake pipes to show where it will go. One of those parts that is not very visible, but still worth putting in. The narrow end facing the camera will get a stairway from the base plate up to the platform.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Wbw2ZNdC/IMG-9453.jpg)
And now the really 'fun' part - bending up the railing and installing the posts into the platform. Not too hard, but I have to remember to run the railings onto the posts before bending (had to heat and straighten in one spot where I forgot, the post cap wont go around the tight bends  :hammerbash: ).  Assembling all the posts, with bottom caps, into the holes took some fussing, cussing, and retries!
(https://i.postimg.cc/9QXct6TM/IMG-9456.jpg)
One railing on, three to go (two platforms with two railings each)...  Good practice for the upper platforms where they will show more, at least those dont have all the jogs in and out, just gentle arcs at the ends.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on June 02, 2021, 05:21:00 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Thanks for the plunger and plunger top cap info Chris! I have a lot of respect for the designers and builders of the full size engine all those years ago. Great progress on your engine!  :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on June 02, 2021, 08:50:03 PM
Lots of little fiddly work on those , Chris, but it's all those details that make the model stand out!  :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 02, 2021, 10:21:00 PM
Thanks guys, this afternoon got the second railing on the first platform. Had to trim a couple of corners and edges to get the platform to fit down between the pump chambers. Plenty of room down in place, but it wouldn't quite get there with the railings on. Just minor trimming, sort of like getting a  piece of furniture around that last corner of the hallway.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 03, 2021, 09:21:51 PM
Catching up on the railings - here is a picture of one platform with the railings, one without (one of its railings is on now, and the first one has had a coat of paint since this was taken)

(https://i.postimg.cc/3NyR0T3y/IMG-9457.jpg)
Last night I was thinking over how to make the jig for the stairs, when it hit me - I have a 3D printer now!   :slap:   So, printed up the four stairs for leading up to the platforms:
(https://i.postimg.cc/vTpmWNm0/IMG-9459.jpg)
Also designed up the freestanding ladder that was used in several places at the pump station, going to print a couple of them. And printed up the elbows and tees for the air lines that will go between the holes near the top in the force chambers above the check valves. All six of the chambers were connected by this piping to balance the pressures and help damp the movements. I found the patent for the design of these Holly engines, and it calls out this setup. I had originally thought that they pumped in pressurized air to these chambers, but not so, they just had small valves top and bottom to check the level of the water and to drain some out/add air at the top if needed.

(https://i.postimg.cc/1t7Xzt1h/IMG-9460.jpg)
These parts need a spritz of paint and the straight pipe sections between the fittings. I had seen in the plans that there was an air pump, and had assumed it was to pump air into the force chambers. More digging in the plans and photos I took, and I finally figured out where the pump was - it was on that little half-circle at the side of the LP pump base plate. The 'air pump' was actually an air-pressure-powered water pump! They took the oscillating pressure from the force chambers, and ran a small air pipe down to a pump on the floor that was used to scavange up water from the floor around the engine, water that may have leaked from pipes, from the pump seals, and condensation from the air on cold water pipes. The air pump was a large diameter piston with just a few inches of movement, and had a chamber with check valves underneath, with openings around the edge. It was a floor-mounted sump pump essentially. It turns out that these pumps were never installed on the Ward Station pump engines, since they had floor drains that could run off to the local storm sewer lines, so no need for the pumps. This explains why they showed the parts of the pump in the drawings, but there was no evidence of them (no pipes/fittings leading to them from the force chambers) other than the provision for the mounting bolts on the edge of the LP pump base plate - they were part of the standard pump engine but not installed on the ones at this location. Fun detective work! I had spent a lot of time looking in the photos for the air pumps, finally checked the mounting bolt pattern and dimensions on the plans and spotted that they fit the bolt holes in that base plate, then it all clicked - the plans are of each individual parts in this giant engine, there is no general-assembly drawing of the entire thing, just subassembly drawings for things like the Corliss valving.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: gary.a.ayres on June 03, 2021, 11:13:59 PM
Amazing progress since I last checked in.

Very impressive!

 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Roger B on June 06, 2021, 12:26:56 PM
Lot's of wonderful details as ever  :DrinkPint:  :DrinkPint:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 07, 2021, 03:53:08 AM
Thanks guys!


Tonight I got back home, took a trip up to Boston Friday to see the waterworks museum which has several different huge steam pumping engines. Awesome place and engines. After taking the tour I spent a while talking with the director of the museum, asking if they had any drawings of the engines and showing him what I am building of the Holly engine. By the end of the conversation, he gave me a set of pdf scans of all 58 pages of measured drawings of thier Allis triple pumping engine! I had started out offering to buy a set of whatever they had, especially the Leavitte engine, but those were lost in a partial building collapse years ago. With the Allis plans, I am going to create a 3D CAD model and make them some animations from it. Truly awesome to get these plans, should keep me busy for a while. This engine is similar to the Holly but smaller.


Then Saturday I went up to the logging museum in Maine, spent the day driving the gas Lombards and helping mount thier marine engine on bed logs. Sunday went down to the WW&F Railway museum where Ron Ginger gave me a great tour, and over to the Maine Locomotive Works to see thier current project. Back home in the afternoon, lotsa driving in a few days, about 1300 miles, but so so so nice to get out and see old friends!


Pictures to follow tomorrow!!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: gary.a.ayres on June 07, 2021, 09:08:14 AM
Fabulous!

Sounds like you have been in Crueby Heaven!

 :LittleAngel:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: MJM460 on June 07, 2021, 12:25:44 PM
Will be interesting to compare the two designs. 

Just as well they were able to provide the drawings, you would not want to become idle with only a few weeks to finish the Holly!

It sounds like a great trip.  Great way to celebrate release from lockdown.

MJM460

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RonGinger on June 07, 2021, 12:52:31 PM
I greatly enjoyed showing Chris around the WW&F Ry museum where I am currently helping to build a full size replica of an 1894 coach. Its a very satisfying project, even if its in 1:1 scale. https://forum.wwfry.org/index.php/topic,2944.0.html (https://forum.wwfry.org/index.php/topic,2944.0.html) is the forum link to our build log.

If anyone else is visiting this part of the Maine coat I am always happy to meet fellow modelers and show them around.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 07, 2021, 01:03:08 PM
.... with only a few weeks to finish the Holly! .....

MJM460
Um, err, going to be a BUSY couple weeks!    :paranoia:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 07, 2021, 08:06:40 PM
As promised, here are some pictures and video from the trip. At the Boston Waterworks Museum, they have several very large steam pumping engines. Starting with the Allis engine, which is similar in size and design to the Holly engine I am building:
(https://i.postimg.cc/HLhVvsWL/IMG-2294a.jpg)
The pumps housings visible on the Holly are below the floor level on this engine, so it does not look as big but it is pretty close in size. Several interesting differences - on this engine, the piston disc is connected to the crosshead with two piston rods rather than one, each about halfway from the center to the edge. I have never seen this on any engine before, not sure why they did that - anyone know? Also, on the Holly the side shaft with the eccentrics is driven by a diagonal shaft with bevel gears at each end. On the Allis, they used a pair of cranks, offset 90 degrees from each other, one at each end of the engine - you can see one in the above photo on the corner closest to the camera. The plans call it a Lay shaft, in the other thread where we discussed a similar setup its called a Lee shaft - might be a regional name? In looking through the plans, I have seen that it uses a Corliss style rotary valve for the steam and exhaust on the HP cylinder and the steam input on the IP cylinder, the IP exhaust and both on the LP cylinder are poppet valves. The rest of the arrangement is quite similar to the Holly engine.

Speaking of Holly - here is a picture of an engine that was at that station at one time:
(https://i.postimg.cc/KYy9kxhR/IMG-2386a.jpg)
This two cylinder Corliss engine by Worthington is at the museum now, in the background the brown engine is the Leavitt engine. The light gray tanks on the left are the pump and force chambers for the Worthington, the squarish blocks in the foreground are the compound cylinders for it.

(https://i.postimg.cc/BnFYntyr/IMG-2382a.jpg)
The Leavitt engine is really interesting - to make it fit the existing building, Leavitt designed a very interesting layout with the conrods driving a rocking arm with several lobes, one driving the pump at an angle, on the other side it drove the crankshaft with the flywheels on it.

(https://i.postimg.cc/wBcwDZ9F/IMG-2416a.jpg)
In the diagram, the flywheel is shown by the dotted green arc on the right next to the person outline. The pistons are vertical in the center, pushing/pulling on the rocker arm, and the pumps are on the left. Rather than pressure-activated check valves, it has check valves operated by levers that look a lot like corliss linkages, which keeps the pumps smaller as well. Up on the engine, I got this picture through a overlook window showing the valve cams rather than typical eccentrics, using a follower wheel on the right inside the arm with the vertical slot. Very intriguing setup all round. This engine worked, but it ran at 50 to 60 RPM, rather than the 12 to 15 of the Allis engine. They said it tended to vibrate a lot, and had reliability problems from all the side stresses. Its motion reminds me a lot of the Monitor engine, which also had an unusual design to fit in a cramped space of the ships hull.

(https://i.postimg.cc/kXzYCWjN/IMG-2442a.jpg)

Here are links to a couple videos (not my postings) - they are shown on screens in the museum:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kzcEAG5TZ4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsjV3a2xw-Y
Overall a fascinating museum, well worth the visit if you are in the Boston area. Certain days they offer a special tour with access onto the catwalks and pump levels, I am hoping to get back when that tour is available.

Alsoo spent a day at the logging museum with my old favorites, the Lombard haulers/trucks. The steam powered one
(https://i.postimg.cc/Dzgt7842/IMG-2484a.jpg)
the dump truck
(https://i.postimg.cc/5t1hcw07/IMG-2491a.jpg)
and the flatbed truck
(https://i.postimg.cc/1t3bXsDD/IMG-2509a-JPG.jpg)
Great fun to drive those around again!  Also in the morning we got this marine engine off its side, was laying on tires, and up on some wood beds:
(https://i.postimg.cc/rmZ3t393/IMG-2511a.jpg)
and fired up this Fairbanks Morse hit/miss engine
(https://i.postimg.cc/8cF3d4K5/IMG-2486a.jpg)
No pictures from the WW&F museum, but here is their website:
https://www.wwfry.org/
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 07, 2021, 08:28:49 PM
Given the trip over the weekend, not much to show on the Holly model - did get the stairs and ladders painted and the second platform installed:
(https://i.postimg.cc/prJH5qpF/IMG-9461.jpg)
The wooden ladders are portable, like on the real one I am going to put one of them up on the crankshaft-level platform.

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: gary.a.ayres on June 07, 2021, 09:16:39 PM
Fabulous machines, and the quality of those animations is second to none.

Must have been a great trip - I hope you rounded off each day of it with a bottle or two of the finest ale!

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 07, 2021, 09:19:09 PM
Fabulous machines, and the quality of those animations is second to none.

Must have been a great trip - I hope you rounded off each day of it with a bottle or two of the finest ale!

 :cheers:
By the end of each day I was too tired to go out for one!  Settled for a cookie and putting my feet up in the hotel room.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 07, 2021, 09:24:15 PM
After a nice read/nap out on the porch to recharge, I got the air pipes fitted to the force chambers. These are simple pipes that connect each of the six chambers, no valves or pumps involved. The pipes are some steel rod cut to length, the fittings were 3D printed with the stairs/ladders. Once the engine beds are made and installed I'll put some glue or epoxy on the joints with the force chambers - for now, they are just a tight fit in the holes, and I dont want to crack a glued joint when moving things around for the engine beds - cant put the screws in for good yet, the top plates across the vertical columns will be taken on/off a few more times.
(https://i.postimg.cc/JhtMYfh7/IMG-9462.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/SK5qBgX6/IMG-9463.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on June 08, 2021, 01:49:35 AM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Glad you enjoyed the road trip! Lots of cool machinery to be seen and worked on.  :cheers:

I was agitated watching the Leavitt engine animation - it triggered my machine design spidey sense about vibration and unbalanced forces in varying directions. :thinking: :headscratch: :noidea: I'm sure Mr Leavitt did the due diligence at the time, but thinking about the vibration modes may cause some insomnia here. :insane: I may crack a few Elfensteiner stubbies your shop elves sent me while you were away, to slow down the three overspeeding brain cells. (I suspect the shop elves broke into the beer storage locker when you were out) :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 08, 2021, 02:03:01 AM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Glad you enjoyed the road trip! Lots of cool machinery to be seen and worked on.  :cheers:

I was agitated watching the Leavitt engine animation - it triggered my machine design spidey sense about vibration and unbalanced forces in varying directions. :thinking: :headscratch: :noidea: I'm sure Mr Leavitt did the due diligence at the time, but thinking about the vibration modes may cause some insomnia here. :insane: I may crack a few Elfensteiner stubbies your shop elves sent me while you were away, to slow down the three overspeeding brain cells. (I suspect the shop elves broke into the beer storage locker when you were out) :Lol:
They did say on the tour that the Leavitt engine was prone to breakdown caused by the vibrations and the extreme angles on the pumps. No way to balance that setup, and it was run at 50+ rpm, quick for a big pump. The holly and allis ran under 20 rpm. The Monitor engine was even called a vibratory engine, and this one has even more mass in the rocker and levers out the sides. But, he did get it to fit the existing building, which he was handed as a constraint. When they added the Allis engine, they put up a new room on the building sized to fit the engine.


And lob one of those Elfenstieners back this way, the elves keep hiding mine!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on June 08, 2021, 02:21:36 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 08, 2021, 08:44:31 PM
Almost done with the pump level on the Holly engine. I got the hoses installed on the output pipes, and the Y pipe bolted on the output side. Just need to make the supports that go from the tops of the pump chambers up to the engine beds - these beams hold the pump chambers down when lifting the plungers, and support the middle of the engine beds when pushing the plungers down.
(https://i.postimg.cc/kMpKy8fS/IMG-9465.jpg)
So, the shop elves got busy cutting down the bar stock for the supports and also the engine beds - going to have to stress relieve them in the oven, and might as well do the lot in one heating. Here they are cutting the bars to rough length. As you can see, they are not too bright about where they hang out while I am running the saw (they cant reach the switch, probably a good thing)
(https://i.postimg.cc/CK7fnfRz/IMG-9467.jpg)
And the foreseeable result when the cut was done....
(https://i.postimg.cc/NM026fXb/IMG-9468.jpg)
They think that O.S.H.A. stands for Order Several Halfpints'a Ale!   :Lol:
After taking all the bars down to the kitchen in the service elevator for baking (500F for an hour and cooling), they got out the Lombard Truck to take them back to the workshop again
(https://i.postimg.cc/YSMWSxq5/IMG-9470.jpg)
where they unloaded them and put them up on the bench to study the plans some more
(https://i.postimg.cc/sDGSHXNN/IMG-9472.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/mgx9v4x2/IMG-9473.jpg)
While they were looking at the plans, I got the first of the support beams roughed out on the mill - the top end is a little long, will trim that to close fit once the engine beds are done.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sgpWyLyP/IMG-9474.jpg)
The engine beds are going to be fun to machine, here is what they look like:

(https://i.postimg.cc/k4ZGWNqX/Engine-Beds.jpg)
The cranks spin in the center openings, and note that there are no bearings at the outer ends but rather open cranks. The main parts of the beds are going to be cut from 3/4" thick x 3" wide bar, with another 3/4" square bar added underneath the bearings to form the part that hanges down in the center. Another piece will be added for the areas where the bearings stick up above. So, good reason for the elves to be studying those plans!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: tvoght on June 08, 2021, 09:51:05 PM
If shop elves are subject to cartoon physics, then that guy must have hung there for awhile after the brass dropped, until he finally realized what happened.  --Tim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 08, 2021, 10:54:20 PM
If shop elves are subject to cartoon physics, then that guy must have hung there for awhile after the brass dropped, until he finally realized what happened.  --Tim
So funny when he holds up the little sign before he falls.... 

(https://i.postimg.cc/nzkMMsh0/Image7.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RReid on June 09, 2021, 12:28:28 AM
This ol' world needs more elves to lighten things up a little. Thanks for the laugh Chris!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 09, 2021, 06:08:25 PM
This morning got the rest of the vertical supports shaped and started drilling the mounting holes in the ends. After that is done I'll get the corners eased on the sander, and then start on the engine beds.
(https://i.postimg.cc/y62PCPdV/IMG-9475.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 09, 2021, 11:32:01 PM
Got the rest of the holes in the vertical pump supports drilled, the corners sanded, and a coat of paint on. Here is one pair set in place - after the engine beds are made the top ends will be trimmed to fit the space. Given that there are SO many pieces between  all these parts (engine beds, top plates, frame legs, base plates, pump bodies, brackets) I don't want to depend on the plan dimensions for a close fit, better to wait and measure to be sure. They should be very close as per plans, but all it takes is a few thou out to leave a gap.

(https://i.postimg.cc/VkbtzQJv/IMG-9476.jpg)
This evening I am working with my lead shop elf foreman to plan out the order of milling the blank plates for the engine beds. Getting it written down so the Elfenstiener hangovers dont make us forget! 
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on June 10, 2021, 12:00:25 AM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

It's looking great Chris!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 10, 2021, 12:10:31 AM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

It's looking great Chris!
Thanks CNR, I think it's a ways ahead of my original thinking timewise, the printed housings really took a lot of time off my guestimates. Rest of the model is all metal, so the printer will be used for more submarine parts and shop elf furniture. ... Hey, how'd that get in there?! Dang elves have hacked my password again!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on June 10, 2021, 05:28:11 AM
That is looking great, Chris!
It's going to be packed in there, isn't it?!

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 10, 2021, 03:55:44 PM
That is looking great, Chris!
It's going to be packed in there, isn't it?!

Kim
Yeah, its going to be a tight fit to get the rods between the pump plungers and the crossheads in, as well as the bolts for holding the engine beds and top plates in - not a lot of finger room in between all the frames and pipes!  Here is an old photo, I think this one was from the factory where they built the engines at the Cincinatti water works, different brand but similar design. not a lot of space in there!

(https://i.postimg.cc/QNwPhMr1/Holly-Pumping-Engine-Parts-Photo-2.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 10, 2021, 03:59:38 PM
So, with the pump level of the model done, time to start in on the actual engine!   :whoohoo:
This morning I got started milling the recess on the ends of the engine bed plates, to let them fit over the plates that sit on top of the pump frames. Those plates take bolts from underneath to connect the frames, and from the top to connect to the beds. I think I have the sequence to mill the shapes in worked out, time will tell! There are three of these bed plates to make, so will do the same operations on all three before moving on to the next step. The bed plates are too wide for my normal mill vise so I had to break out the bigger one.
(https://i.postimg.cc/fRhYwcPm/IMG-9478.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 11, 2021, 05:53:33 PM
Yesterday got the rest of the recesses in the bottom of the bed plates, then laid out and drilled holes in the center for attaching to the faceplate for cutting the radii on the ends later. To index the plates in the vise, I lined up the edge of the recess with the back corner of the vise using a parallel plate, then found the center of the section between the recesses and the sides using a center finder (foreground)
(https://i.postimg.cc/qqNSxGmq/IMG-9479.jpg)
Once the center was found and the handwheels zeroed, I could swap between plates by lining up that back corner of the recess to the vise edge. Drilled the rest of the faceplate holes in each one.
(https://i.postimg.cc/L4Wr6rX1/IMG-9480.jpg)
Now I am going through each plate and drilling the mounting holes for the upper and lower frames. I took the time to make up a road map sheet for all the moves, visible at upper right, starting at the center hole, around the pattern to all the holes. My version of CNC - Count Number Cranks, with the roadmap giving the number of full turns and what handwheel tick to stop on for each hole. Then back to the center hole to repeat for the other side, and repeat all that for each end of each plate.
(https://i.postimg.cc/cCPj98jm/IMG-9481.jpg)
One end of one plate down, five more ends to go...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 13, 2021, 03:07:48 PM
Next step on the engine beds is to mill in the recesses to form the raised paids on the top surface. After measuring out and drawing on the outlines, I went around the edges with a small end mill to leave just a small radius on the inside corners. The bar across the center between the corner pads was outlined with straight lines for now, later on those will be changed to arcs centered on the middle of the plate - will do that when set up to put the arcs on the ends of the plates.

(https://i.postimg.cc/kX9cZJwn/IMG-9482.jpg)
Once all the outlines were done, switched to a larger diameter end mill and started removing the background, starting at the ends.
(https://i.postimg.cc/VLRRPxHX/IMG-9483.jpg)
then moved the plate out so that I could start the center section from the side - wanted to leave the cutter depth set throughout.
(https://i.postimg.cc/VkZWdjw6/IMG-9484.jpg)
There was enough reach to get partway past the center, then turned the plate around to get the other end. So far have two of the three bed plates up to this stage.
(https://i.postimg.cc/mggSLm0J/IMG-9485.jpg)
The raised section in the center will be cut away to leave the opening for the crank, so no need to recess that as well. Next up, I am going set up the rotary table to mill the arcs on the ends of the plates and put the arcs into the raised sections between the corner pads. After that can cut out the center openings, and start work on adding the bars on the sides for the lower arcs and the bearing blocks on the top sides. Lots to go on these parts!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RReid on June 13, 2021, 04:18:58 PM
Hi Chris, looks good so far. Are you counting cranks, or just working to the lines?
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on June 13, 2021, 04:48:33 PM
That's a great start on those engine beds.  There's going to be a lot of steps involved in those parts!

Enjoying following along   :popcorn: :popcorn:

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 13, 2021, 06:43:14 PM
Hi Chris, looks good so far. Are you counting cranks, or just working to the lines?
Counting cranks - the lines are there as a double-check for miscounts and for confidence that I am not way off.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Don1966 on June 13, 2021, 06:54:32 PM
Looking great Dog, but I have to ask if you have a brass stockpile in your house that stuff is at a premium right now. Always outstanding work Chris…..  :Love:


 :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 13, 2021, 07:18:25 PM
Looking great Dog, but I have to ask if you have a brass stockpile in your house that stuff is at a premium right now. Always outstanding work Chris…..  :Love:


 :drinking-41:
Don
Yeah, prices are up, I've bought enough for the next several parts so far, and I buy 'drops' from Yarde Metals of roundbar that are about 1/3 the normal price, oddball sizes, usually about 3' long, that I use for the larger parts. This flatbar had to be bought at normal prices, though the price varied a LOT from different suppliers, this time Speedy Metals had the best price by far, maybe they had it from a prior pricepoint. I try to keep a stock of common sizes to avoid buying short lengths for a specific use, longer lengths tend to work out cheaper per pound, and get used eventually. Also, the income from my articles in Live Steam pays more than enough to cover all my projects, so I dont care so much about price!

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 13, 2021, 10:07:38 PM
Got started on shaping the ends of the engine bed plates - they are flat at the corners next to the frame mounting pads, then arc out in the center to give a little extra room for the cranks. The ends will be angled in, but I started with the mill head vertical to set the length. The parts are screwed one at a time to a faceplate mounted on the rotary table.
(https://i.postimg.cc/mZdWjgQH/IMG-9486.jpg)
When all the ends had the shape milled in, I then tilted the mill headstock a whopping 2 degrees - just visible against the mill column on the left of the headstock.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZK2tkssY/IMG-9487.jpg)
To know when I had advanced in to the initial shape, I drew on the face first with a marker:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Nf5qzv4P/IMG-9488.jpg)
Then took several light passes, here it is halfway with part of the marking gone:
(https://i.postimg.cc/xdVw8JSW/IMG-9489.jpg)
Another couple passes and all the marker was gone, same process on the other flat end and the arched center.
(https://i.postimg.cc/vZnRG7Cr/IMG-9490.jpg)
The sides of the beds stay vertical, its just the ends that they angled in. So, on to finishing the rest of the ends....
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on June 14, 2021, 05:17:39 AM
Is just the flat part of the end angled? Or is the curved part angled at 2o also?  Hard to tell in the picture...

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 14, 2021, 12:16:37 PM
Is just the flat part of the end angled? Or is the curved part angled at 2o also?  Hard to tell in the picture...

Kim


Hi Kim,  the curved part is angled as well. Just 2 degrees, but it does change the look, I was surprised that it's noticeable, at least in person. In the picture its upside down.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on June 14, 2021, 02:01:30 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 14, 2021, 04:54:02 PM
Hi CNR! 


Got the rest of the ends angled in on the bed plates, now turned them over to put the arcs in the recesses on the top surface...
(https://i.postimg.cc/qBwxYGHZ/IMG-9491.jpg)
Next? Well, I need to cut the arc in the opening in the center,  tap the mounting holes on the corner pads,cut the center opening out, and get things prepped for the bearing blocks and the bottom arched blocks...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: sid pileski on June 14, 2021, 05:21:16 PM
Chris- My wife and I visited the Boston pumping station this weekend. They are pretty amazing engines to see in person. We were able to do the "below and above" deck tour.
So, we got to clime up on the Leavitt engine, and go below to actually explore the  bottom side of the Allis engine.
Our Docent was very knowledgeable. (I forget his name) He was in pumps all his working career. 
Only one thing that I kind of disagreed with him about.
In the pictures below, you can see a little gear that engages one of the flywheels for barring the engine. It is on a shaft that has a larger gear that engages a worm gear, to a shaft with a universal joint.
He claimed that this was added later t drive an auxiliary oil pump to lube the engine. I disagreed, pointing out that, one of the reasons you use a worm drive is so that it can't be back driven, as he was describing. additionally, let's assume that the flywheel is 20' in dia, and the small gear is 1.0' in dia (it was actually smaller) at an engine speed of 50 RPM, the shaft would be turning 1000 RPM. Not even taking into account the next gear and worm (if it could be driven) the final shaft would be flying.
Looking at the lack of and substantial bearings on the shafts, I wasn't buying it.
I believe what it really was for was barring the engine with either an axillary engine as is quite common or an electric motor, later in it's life.
The designer did put in a method of barring the engine originally (not using the flywheel), but you had to clime up on top of the engine and spin, essentially, a ship's wheel.

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 14, 2021, 07:15:55 PM
Hi Sid,
I really want to get back there on a day when I can take that extended tour! Unfortunately I could only be there Friday when it was not offered, hoping to be there a day it is next time.

I agree with you on that worm gear - no way at all it could drive a pump from the flywheel, you can't backdrive a worm gear as the docent claimed, that looks like an add-on for a motor they may have used to drive the flywheel around for demos after it was out of service - it also has no way to disengage it like a normal barring setup would.  When I was talking to the director there he mentioned at one point that they would like to set up the Allis engine to be driven by an electric motor for demonstrations.
Glad you were able to get in there, it is a very nice museum, great to have the several different types of engines all together.
Chris :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: sid pileski on June 14, 2021, 08:17:47 PM
Chris- I thought about the demo thing too, but in their info and history of the engines, it was never mentioned that these were anything more than working engines.
When they were put out of service, that was it. Now, this particular engine, as you and they pointed out was troublesome and I think was off line when the Allis and Worthington were working. So maybe it was a demo drive.
I should have looked closer, but I don't think that gear was engaged to the flywheel.
BTW, down below, there is another single  vertical engine that they used for generating electricity. Between the Worthington and Allis is the remains of a switch panel.
They thought it was probably DC generated. (in that time period, probably).

Sid
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 14, 2021, 08:29:38 PM
Chris- I thought about the demo thing too, but in their info and history of the engines, it was never mentioned that these were anything more than working engines.
When they were put out of service, that was it. Now, this particular engine, as you and they pointed out was troublesome and I think was off line when the Allis and Worthington were working. So maybe it was a demo drive.
I should have looked closer, but I don't think that gear was engaged to the flywheel.
BTW, down below, there is another single  vertical engine that they used for generating electricity. Between the Worthington and Allis is the remains of a switch panel.
They thought it was probably DC generated. (in that time period, probably).

Sid
In your picture it looks like the small gear on the shaft holding the larger worm gear is engaged with the openings in the flywheel - or is there a space between? Or is that not the flywheel?


I didn't notice the other single vertical engine - I was so busy gawping at the big ones that I must have missed it! Did you get a picture of it?
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: sid pileski on June 14, 2021, 08:51:27 PM
Chris- that is one of the flywheels. I did not get a better picture. I can't tell from my own photo if it was engaged or not, but I didn't think it was.
The generator engine was below on the pump level. So, you would not see it if you did not do the tour to the "basement".

Sid
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 14, 2021, 09:03:00 PM
Chris- that is one of the flywheels. I did not get a better picture. I can't tell from my own photo if it was engaged or not, but I didn't think it was.
The generator engine was below on the pump level. So, you would not see it if you did not do the tour to the "basement".

Sid
Gotcha!  One more reason to get back there for the better tour. I should be going up to Maine again this fall for the logging museum fall event (looks like that may happen this year), and may be able to work in a trip up to the old logging camp/locomotives way up north with a couple guys from the  museum. If so, maybe I can work out the trip so I can hit the waterworks museum on a Wednesday when they have the special tours - the logging event would be on the saturday and sunday so those tour days are out. Have to see what the fall tour schedule is, they dont have anything in the fall posted on their website schedule yet.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 14, 2021, 09:51:57 PM
And got started on cutting the ends of the center opening through the bed plates - this should be the last operation for these parts on the rotary table. I used a small end mill to give the inside corners a small radius, which meant that I had to finish the cuts from the other side of the plates.
(https://i.postimg.cc/fTzcZSfq/IMG-9493.jpg)
Two plates up to this point, one more to go...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on June 15, 2021, 11:47:31 AM
Hi Chris and Sid, That sure looks like the working end of a barring engine to me,  in the Boston pics. The shown worm and worm gear with its' low helix angle would not back drive.

Some barring engines on large steam engines moved the shaft and pinion into and out of mesh with the flywheel with a swinging lever / block pivoting around the engine crankshaft or secondary shaft, with the engine fixed to the frame.

The one in the pics looks like it maybe slid the whole subframe and engine / gears assy in and out to mesh and unmesh the pinion with the flywheel.

Great to see the pics and diagrams of the Boston engines.  :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: sid pileski on June 15, 2021, 02:57:15 PM
Wish I had time to take better pictures!

Maybe when Chris gets back there, he can solve the mystery definitively!!!

Any other members up for the challenge?

Sid
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 15, 2021, 03:51:25 PM
This morning finished up cutting the openings in the center of the engine bed plates. Same kind of procedure as doing the arcs at the ends, just straight cuts. Couple of passes to get down to the depth of the end mill, then flipped the plate over to do the other side and connect up the slots.
(https://i.postimg.cc/HL3C64Mm/IMG-9494.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/C1QpghJ6/IMG-9495.jpg)
First one set on top of the pump frames to have a look at the shapes, quite a difference!
(https://i.postimg.cc/NMMvS98H/IMG-9496.jpg)
Next up is to attach blocks that will be shaped to the arched lower supports under the crankshaft. I think I will attach these with some screws hidden under the pump chamber support beams, in the center of the arches, along with some loctite for good measure.
(https://i.postimg.cc/J0HV7f27/IMG-9497.jpg)
Once the screw holes are drilled/tapped, will need to set up the rotary table and a tooling plate to offset the blocks to mill in the arch shape on the outside. There are flats projecting down in the center to connect to the vertical beams, and also to take the lower end nuts for the bearing blocks up above.
(https://i.postimg.cc/L83XMPPC/Engine-Bed-Lower-View.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on June 15, 2021, 09:07:07 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 15, 2021, 10:34:19 PM
Productive afternoon, between read/naps out on the porch.  Got the arch blocks drilled/tapped to screw them onto the bed plates:
(https://i.postimg.cc/kgF9LdSW/IMG-9498.jpg)
then made up a jig to hold them the right distance out from center on the rotary table - used one of the cut-outs from the center of the bed plates, was just the right size. Laid out and cut the box shape into the outside edge of two of the blocks - the two end ones have support flats for the vertical beams to the pumps, the other four will also have bosses for the bearing block bolts. These two are simpler, so I am starting with them to work out the procedure.
(https://i.postimg.cc/bwjp6vZz/IMG-9499.jpg)
The two holes you see inside the box are where the screws are, they will be covered by the vertical beams.  Then comes the fiddly bit, machining in the arc shape without hitting the center box, and without going too far towards the narrow ends. At the ends, the shape will reverse the curve to blend in with the bottom of the plates at the ends of the beds. Those reversed arcs will have to be cut in later with the rotary table on its side. In this picture, one end has been shaped down, several passes, lowering the mill head each time, and rotating the rotab to cut in the arc. I am taking shallow nibbles to avoid putting too much force onto the fixture, just those two 4-40 screws in the center hold it in place.

(https://i.postimg.cc/FKTvsgDR/IMG-9501.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 16, 2021, 05:22:09 PM
Both ends arched on the first two of the blocks, and starting to mill out the other four parts. These four have bosses at the corners of the center plate, so a few more moves to lay it out. I'm going to mill all four like this, then start the arching cuts. Final cuts on the thin ends will have to be done after laying the rotary table out horizontally. The bosses will be rounded on the corners with a rotary tool last.

(https://i.postimg.cc/q70LGq9V/IMG-9502.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: gary.a.ayres on June 16, 2021, 11:08:42 PM
Great development. Some masterful skills in evidence here.

Good job that elf wasn't sitting having lunch on a girder 900 feet above the streets of Manhattan when you cut it though!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 16, 2021, 11:23:02 PM
Great development. Some masterful skills in evidence here.

Good job that elf wasn't sitting having lunch on a girder 900 feet above the streets of Manhattan when you cut it though!
:Lol:
Just had flashback to the old movies like that - Harold Lloyd, etc. !
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 16, 2021, 11:27:11 PM
Some more done on the blocks with the bosses around the flat section - started the arc work with the small end mill, back and forth between cutting the arc and taking the sides of the bosses down vertically.

(https://i.postimg.cc/ZYFNhmsj/IMG-9503.jpg)
then switched to the larger cutter to take the ends down close - as mentioned before, the ends will be finished up with the rotab horizontal to flare the ends to match the existing plates.
(https://i.postimg.cc/qMJ3JF9r/IMG-9504.jpg)
Fiddly work, taking lots of breaks between parts to keep the concentration up with all the rotary etch-a-sketching!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 17, 2021, 05:24:02 PM
After finishing up on the middle portions of the arcs, set up the same holding fixture on the horizontal rotary table and did the ends, where they transition from the main arcs to reverse flare out again.
(https://i.postimg.cc/T1D7fMcq/IMG-9507.jpg)
Here is how they look on the engine beds
(https://i.postimg.cc/bYDFQkjD/IMG-9508.jpg)
And set on top of the pump frames. Looking good, next up will be to make the bearing blocks that sit on top of the engine beds.
(https://i.postimg.cc/44D2wyJ8/IMG-9510.jpg)
The shop elves like them, nice spot to sit for a mid-day beer!
(https://i.postimg.cc/TwS7zYn3/IMG-9509.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on June 17, 2021, 06:41:56 PM
Very nice, Chris!

Are you going to solder those blocks to the main unit? Or just leave them screwed together?  I'm assuming they were all one casting in the original?

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 17, 2021, 06:58:13 PM
Very nice, Chris!

Are you going to solder those blocks to the main unit? Or just leave them screwed together?  I'm assuming they were all one casting in the original?

Kim


Hi Kim,


Yup the original is one big casting. I am going to put some loctite in the joint and screw them together, these blocks won't have any side forces on them. For the bearing blocks on top, I am going to notch the top and side faces of the beds, and make the bearing holders with a slot on the bottom to hold them in place. Those will be through bolted when the bearing caps are in place so will be strong that way. Those through bolts will go through the lower arch blocks as well. Still a few weeks to go on these engine beds!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on June 17, 2021, 09:18:07 PM
Be sure to check all the oilways/steam ways in the engine in case Bucket Bob crumples up his beer can against his forehead and drops it in the nearest hole....... again....... :Lol:

Great progress!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 17, 2021, 09:35:44 PM
Be sure to check all the oilways/steam ways in the engine in case Bucket Bob crumples up his beer can against his forehead and drops it in the nearest hole....... again....... :Lol:

Great progress!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Its those stupid pull-tabs from the cans that he leaves everywhere - nasty on bare feet!   :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Don1966 on June 18, 2021, 03:01:11 AM
Dog, Dog, Dog, I don’t know what to say but……..I…………likeeeeeeee…..  :Love:



 :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 18, 2021, 03:46:04 AM
Dog, Dog, Dog, I don’t know what to say but……..I…………likeeeeeeee…..  :Love:



 :drinking-41:
Don
:wine1:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 18, 2021, 03:28:28 PM
The arch pieces are all loctited and screwed in place, so I can start notching in the side rails on the engine beds for the bearing blocks. Only four of the six side rails get bearing blocks, since the end cranks are single sided. The arch blocks need to be in place for this, since the sides of the rails will be notched as well for the flared portions of the bearing blocks, and the holes for the bearing caps go all the way through the bottom of the arches. Started with the top notches:

(https://i.postimg.cc/FFw0mmT1/IMG-9511.jpg)

The shapes on these parts emphasize the need for all the blocks to be stress relieved first - otherwise these blocks would have warped out of shape as the sides were cut!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Bearcar1 on June 18, 2021, 06:36:29 PM
Simply outstanding machine work! BRAVOO!!!  :DrinkPint:


BC1
Jim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 18, 2021, 07:31:57 PM
Simply outstanding machine work! BRAVOO!!!  :DrinkPint:


BC1
Jim
Thanks Jim!  Quite a fun project so far, going to be interesting to get the crankshaft made and the bearings all lined up. The crankshaft has a series of different diameters down its length, plus a bevel gear for the lay shaft take-off, and the three engine beds are all on seperate sets of legs around the pumps. Should be interesting!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 18, 2021, 08:59:08 PM
Finished cutting in the top recesses for the bearing blocks, and have cut the first side recess - the bearing blocks will have a u-shaped cutout in the bottom to fit over the engine bed side rails.
(https://i.postimg.cc/9Xk2XXw3/IMG-9512.jpg)

One outside recess cut, three to go, then can start in on the recesses on the inside faces of the side rails. Those will have to be cut from the top, and the curves left by the end mill undercut. It turns out when I laid them out on the bar stock that I did not have enough of the 1" bar for the bearing blocks, so I have ordered that, hope it is in sometime during next week. I checked around, and as usual the prices are all over the map, this time Midwest Steel Supply had the best (by far) price on the sizes I wanted. Amazing how much the prices vary, and how they change week to week.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on June 18, 2021, 10:30:23 PM
Watching on as always Chris ... :popcorn: :popcorn:

I reackon the mill spindle bearings have exceeded a normal rotational working life..... :lolb: .....
[by the 1/2 ton of shavings & swarf slithers we have seen]

Derek

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 18, 2021, 11:07:08 PM
Watching on as always Chris ...

I reackon the mill spindle bearings have exceeded a normal rotational working life..... .....
[by the 1/2 ton of shavings & swarf slithers we have seen]

Derek


   Not sure what their working life is, but I DID wear out the toggle switch for the power two years ago! It snapped off right at the level of the case - had to use needle nose pliers to turn it on and off till I could get a replacement. Sherline was great, called them to check on the part number for a new switch, they sent me a new one free.


Funny you should mention wearing out the bearings...


This spring I decided to set up for single-point threading, going to need a lot of threaded bits on this engine in a large variety of sizes, so that was my excuse. Yup, good reason, sticking to that story.   Setting up the threading attachment on the Sherline is a bit of a pain in the swarf, needs either removing the motor/speed control or using a smaller handwheel (which doesnt work that well, I tried that) so I priced out getting another lathe unit, short bed, without the motor/speed control. Turns out that adding the motor/speed control is not much more, a whole lot less than buying them seperately.    And, considering the amount of use I give these things, someday I am going to wear out one or the other, or both, so I just bought the basic lathe package and set the motor/control off on a shelf for future use.
Then set up the new lathe bed/headstock on a base, put the threading attachment on with the large handwheel, and no motor. Also made some modifications to the threading plates to add adjustable stops, since they have a tendancy to pivot apart under use (will show that when I get to threading parts soon).  All in all, it will save a LOT of setup time, and make it more likely that I will do single-point threading more often. And, when I DO wear out the headstock or motor, I have spares sitting there ready to go! Bound to happen at some point (but now that I have spares, maybe not! )

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 19, 2021, 06:28:28 PM
Dug through the tool drawer, and found a middling diameter but longer-fluted end mill, perfect to do the recesses on the inner sides of the engine bed plate rails - needed a nearly 1" reach down the sides, and small enough diameter to get the flat started in the inner corners. Still will need to cut back the radius in the corners with a rotary tool to let the bearing blocks fit in snugly.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sXjQpkSr/IMG-9513.jpg)
Here are the parts so far - the inner four side rails have the bearing block recesses milled in, the outer two stay as is.

(https://i.postimg.cc/4ynY0pB2/IMG-9516.jpg)
Next steps are to cut back those inner corners, and tap the mounting holes while I wait for the bar stock for the bearing blocks. I could also get started on the bearing block caps, the bar stock probably wont be here till later in the week. I've also gotten a little start on the CAD work for the Allis engine from the plans I got from the Boston Waterworks Museum - so far just the foundation blocks and bolts, but its a start on a long-term background project.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on June 19, 2021, 08:22:53 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RReid on June 19, 2021, 08:27:47 PM
Do you follow a written "play book" to keep all those machining steps in correct order, and with none forgotten?
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 19, 2021, 08:37:31 PM
Do you follow a written "play book" to keep all those machining steps in correct order, and with none forgotten?
Writing it as I go, right here in this thread!   :atcomputer:


I do try to think ahead on parts to figure out the order of things. Doesn't always work, and the scheme often changes partway through. Most parts it doesn't matter as much, but complex shapes like these need some planning.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steamer on June 19, 2021, 08:41:10 PM
OOOOOH you've made big progress!!!    sweeeet

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 20, 2021, 08:02:09 PM
While waiting for the bar stock for the bearing blocks themselves, I've started shaping the stock for the bearing caps, first getting the overall dimensions blocked in.
(https://i.postimg.cc/zf6PtHTz/IMG-9518.jpg)
Also got the last of the mounting holes in the engine bed plates tapped. And, after the sonversation with RReid yesterday about planning ahead, I remembered in time about the mounting points for the lay shaft gear housing, which sits on the side of the bearing block on the HP side of the IP bed. Same overall dimensions, but the shape of the recesses on the side of that block is different to allow mounting the gear housing - there is a big bevel gear on the crankshaft there which drives an angled shaft up to the lay shaft above, with a matching pair of bevel gears to run the lay shaft, with the eccentrics and governor on it, at the same speed as the crankshaft. Caught that just in time - so much for meticulous planning!!    :slap:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Craig DeShong on June 21, 2021, 02:14:37 AM
Looks great Chris, following along.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RReid on June 21, 2021, 03:13:18 AM
 :ThumbsUp: :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 21, 2021, 10:00:36 PM
Great to have you along!

Got the blanks for the bearing block caps all taken to overall size, and notched in for where they sit into the lower blocks.
(https://i.postimg.cc/RFJf93ts/IMG-9519.jpg)
and started drilling all the holes in the caps - four mounting bolt holes, center grease box cover hole, and four smaller holes near the mount holes for holding the cover of the side grease boxes. From the plan notations and cross sections, the caps were cast hollow, with the caps to make the inside cavities into holders for grease for the bearings. Looks like the bearing itself was made of multiple pieces dovedtailed together with rectangular gaps for the grease. For the model, it will be a typical split bearing, the dovetail/gap features are way too tiny to model in! It would mean 1/64" deep dovetails on a curved cross section. Nope!
(https://i.postimg.cc/zvmhfJSJ/IMG-9523.jpg)
Also took a few minutes with the rotary tool to square off the inside corners on the engine beds left from notching in the inside edges of the side rails the other day. The one on the left is before, on the right is after, shown by the blue arrows.
(https://i.postimg.cc/fyx9t6BY/IMG-9520.jpg)
Also visible on the right hand one is a milling boo-boo, above and to the right of the blue arrow you can see where the z-axis lock on the mill column unlocked partway through a pass and the cutter worked its way deeper. I've sent the shop elves out for tubes of JB Weld to patch that spot. I used some of the words they taught me last year...! Fortunately its in a hard-to-see spot, and the filler and paint will make it invisible.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on June 22, 2021, 02:34:12 AM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

One man's boo boo is another man's intentional stress relief feature / frequency damping node. Just ask NASA.  :paranoia:  (I think they must have shop elves too. And maybe J-B Weld, but not positive on that)  :Lol:  :shrug:

Oh, forgot "inspection datum target feature" - very popular when explaining endmill kisses on otherwise perfect flat surfs from finding Z0 with a bit too much enthusiasm.......or from cookie sugar high...... :Lol:

When it comes to boo boo's, Just like Sgt Schultz on Hogan's Heroes, though, "I know no-thing! NO-THING!"  :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 22, 2021, 03:00:57 AM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

One man's boo boo is another man's intentional stress relief feature / frequency damping node. Just ask NASA.  :paranoia:  (I think they must have shop elves too. And maybe J-B Weld, but not positive on that)  :Lol: :shrug:

Oh, forgot "inspection datum target feature" - very popular when explaining endmill kisses on otherwise perfect flat surfs from finding Z0 with a bit too much enthusiasm.......or from cookie sugar high...... :Lol:

When it comes to boo boo's, Just like Sgt Schultz on Hogan's Heroes, though, "I know no-thing! NO-THING!"  :cheers:


I just hope I have better results than Schultz did against Hogan!   :Lol:  wow, that show goes back a ways!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 22, 2021, 09:53:13 PM
Continuing on with the bearing block caps, I dug out an arbor last used on gears/spokes, and milled a rectangle in the top to match the outline of the bottom of the blocks, so no chance of them turning. Bolted each down and ran a ring around the center hole and outlined the bosses for the mounting bolts - the bosses are tapered in at the inner ends.
(https://i.postimg.cc/3xnxYRWQ/IMG-9525.jpg)
Tipped up the blocks to put in the step/angle on the end sections
(https://i.postimg.cc/g0jkJW6X/IMG-9531.jpg)
and a few more milling nibbles, rounding over the ends on the belt sander, and rounding the corners of the bosses gave this set of caps:
(https://i.postimg.cc/XvPNBzw2/IMG-9532.jpg)
The caps will get bolted into the bearing blocks (yet to be made), and the holes for the bearings bored through. The bottom of the caps are on the centerline of the bearings, so the bulk of the caps will get arched out underneath.
As far as the stock that I ordered last week for the bearing blocks, turns out that Midwest Steel Supply still has not shipped them, their price is low but service is slow (hows that for a slogan?) so I may not see the stock till end of the week or early next week - UPS is slower going here from midwest and west coast than along the east coast usually. So, the work on the blocks and caps is stalling out till then. Work may have to skip ahead to making something else, like the rods to connect the pump plungers to the crossheads, or maybe prepping stock for the crankshaft and upper engine frames. May just take a break and get outside more, if the weather cooperates (alternating storms and sun, was near 90 for a few days, today its 60).
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: ddmckee54 on June 23, 2021, 06:37:09 PM
"price is low but service is slow (hows that for a slogan?)"

It's got a nice beat, but it's hard to dance to - I don't think it'll catch on.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 23, 2021, 07:22:47 PM
"price is low but service is slow (hows that for a slogan?)"

It's got a nice beat, but it's hard to dance to - I don't think it'll catch on.

Don


 :lolb:   maybe make it one of those de-motivational posters!




Things are going to pick up again, I worked out a trade elsewhere for another chunk of the bar so I can get going again. That place still hasn't shipped after a week. I can understand it with a small outfit, but this is a large commercial supplier, I was hoping it was just the previous order that took weeks, but this is two in a row.


This morning I was getting the vertical pump supports trimmed to length, also been studying the Allis pump engine plans. Got really confused till I realized it has one huge difference in the pumps from the Holly. The Holly has three pumps in the center with six pump chambers, intakes at the bottom, outlets at the top. On the Allis, it has three pumps/six chambers also, but the intakes are on the left, outlets on the right. Only one set of check valves per chamber rather than two. From the outside it looked so similar I didn't notice the pipes. Very interesting to compare.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on June 23, 2021, 07:56:15 PM
Curbside pickup last week from one of the metal suppliers rear me was a bit of a mess too. I ordered two things:

round bar 1" x 3 feet, free cutting steel
flat bar 1/2" x 3" x 6 feet hot rolled steel

When I went for the pickup the staff member brought out 1/2" x 1" flat bar 3 feet long, then ran back in and got a 6 foot piece of 3" round bar, and commented going by the truck window "man, this sh^^t is HEAVY". I said "that's because it's the wrong diameter and length."   :facepalm:

We did get it straightened out after 25 minutes of the staff member arguing about not having the order sheet before I showed up and how the mistake wasn't his fault, could I not just buy the first stock he brought out AND the correct order? Uh, no. After seeing him with the wrong stock I did give him my copy of the order that I luckily had brought along. He did insist that I pay an extra two cutting charges for the replacement order, and a restock fee of 15% for the first two pieces of incorrect stock. Overall, it was a silly waste of time, I got hosed on the extra cut charges and restock fee, and cost was about double what I paid pre-pandemic for same order.  :cussing:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Don1966 on June 23, 2021, 10:36:27 PM
Dog you carve that metal just a good as you do wood……. :ThumbsUp:



 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on June 24, 2021, 05:07:49 AM
We did get it straightened out after 25 minutes of the staff member arguing about not having the order sheet before I showed up and how the mistake wasn't his fault, could I not just buy the first stock he brought out AND the correct order? Uh, no. After seeing him with the wrong stock I did give him my copy of the order that I luckily had brought along. He did insist that I pay an extra two cutting charges for the replacement order, and a restock fee of 15% for the first two pieces of incorrect stock. Overall, it was a silly waste of time, I got hosed on the extra cut charges and restock fee, and cost was about double what I paid pre-pandemic for same order.  :cussing:

Wow, this seems wrong.  It's not YOUR responsibility to make up for the mistakes of the guy filling your order.  If you ordered the wrong thing, then sure, I could see his point.  But if he cut your order without having the order sheet, that is HIS responsibility.  You should not have had to pay a restock fee or extra cutting fees.  You should send the company a complaint and see what they do about it.  You could always take them to small claims court, but it's probably not worth it. But it's the principle of the thing!
 
They didn't give you the shaft, they sold it to you!  >:(

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on June 24, 2021, 01:13:01 PM
Hi Kim, unfortunately the metal supply firm's head office could not care less about incidents like this, and has had a revolving door of staff members over the years. I have contacted them several times about various fraud-like incidents, and only once did I get a fair response. I don't think they pay well or know how to hire good people, so periodically you get these incidents. It was not so bad before Covid when you could go in and pick exactly what you needed, but with curbside service there is more room for mistakes. The overcharging / extra fees aspect has happened before several times different ways with various staff members who have come and gone. I don't know if they were putting the proceeds from these enterprising thefts in the company till or had found a way to skim them for themselves. In any case, I learned very early there to pay by credit card only so there was no potential for easy theft. I would not choose to buy anything here if I had a lot of choice in metal dealers near me, but I don't. I have hoped for years that a good reputable metal dealer (without a $200 minimum order, and who would sell to the public) would set up shop here, but it has not happened. There are MUCH better metal dealers in London Ontario or Mississauga Ontario that I do occasionally go to, but they are an hour's drive away and non essential travel here is still prohibited under the current provincial Covid lockdown rules anyway. So, I was stuck with going to the dealer nearby where the incident I mentioned happened. Just part of life's rich tapestry here in paradise.   :Lol:

PS I do occasionally shell out and buy from McMaster Carr, who have great service and a HUGE range of metal and fasteners and tooling, but with dollar exchange and credit card fees I end up paying almost double the US dollar list prices, so shopping sprees are infrequent with them!  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on June 24, 2021, 10:31:54 PM
CNR, I see your point, but it's still frustrating.

Do you have an equivalent to OnLine Metals, or Speedy Metals in CA?  Those are the places I get most of my metal.  Some from Amazon or eBay, but mainly those other two?  It takes a few days to get your metal, but even including shipping, they are WAY cheaper than the one local metal supplier that will sell to little guys like us - Metal Supermarket, who tends to be quite pricy!  I've only purchased from them a couple of times.

Anyway, glad you can get your hands on some metal, even if it comes with the risk.

Chris - sorry to derail your thread here.  we can get back to your Holly Pumping engine now that we've settled other world problems!

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on June 24, 2021, 10:54:03 PM
Yes sorry Chris, I did ramble on way too much in the middle of your build thread. Kim - to answer re Speedy / OnLine Metal equivalents here, no. On with the Holly engine topic Chris!  :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 25, 2021, 01:08:43 AM
No problem guys! Always fun to trade supplier/shipping nightmares, and good to learn who is good and not to deal with. I got the alternate-sourced chunk of brass today - the Midwest place sent an email saying the original one was shipped, but it will be interesting to see from the tracking when it is actually given to UPS, its common for them to claim its shipped when all they did was print a label from the UPS website! My guess is that one will be here in another week. I've gotten spoiled by McMaster, who has a big distribution hub just up the road in Syracuse, if I order from them before midafternoon I have it in hand the next day around lunchtime.  Amazon is building a monster warehouse/hub 4 miles from here on some of the old Kodak land, should be good for orders but awful for local traffic over there, its right on my back-road shortcut to the expressway.

Anyway, as you say, back to the Holly engine! I have the brass bar in the oven getting stress relieved, that would be done by now but tonight was Pistol League night, which was a lot of fun, my stresses are relieved!   :LittleDevil:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 25, 2021, 04:20:11 PM
This morning was able to start in on the bearing blocks. They fit over the side rails on the engine bed - did it this way since the bearing blocks have protrusions out around the bearings, one has a mounting flange for the gearbox that drives the lay shaft. Making the bearing blocks as an integral part of the original engine bed plates would have meant starting with much larger blocks and milling away a lot more material. So, I got a start on milling out the slot in the first block - they were all stress relieved last night.
(https://i.postimg.cc/X71DsVmY/IMG-9535.jpg)
Next step is to trim it to length and get it to slide into place on the side rail. Then, repeat for the other three blocks...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on June 25, 2021, 06:55:35 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: EricB on June 25, 2021, 07:03:53 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhlJp1VZMB8

Just found this while looking for something else. Enjoy

Eric
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 25, 2021, 07:28:05 PM
Thanks Eric, that's a great video. I came across it while researching the Holly, there are more details and clips at the Kempton website,  https://kemptonsteam.org/collection/triple-expansion-engines/


I would absolutely love to see it running in person, yet another reason to get back to London again. Spent a week there in 1996, got to lots, like Greenwich and such, still lots to see.


 :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: EricB on June 25, 2021, 07:36:07 PM
I get the impression that your scale model will be about the size of his starter engine. Wow!

Eric
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 25, 2021, 07:44:29 PM
I get the impression that your scale model will be about the size of his starter engine. Wow!

Eric


Almost that tall including the pumps!  Hmmm, wonder if Surus has castings for that barring engine...!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 25, 2021, 08:02:40 PM
It never hurts to ask, just sent in an email to the Kempton organization to see what information they have on those engines....
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Roger B on June 25, 2021, 08:34:29 PM
Splendid work as ever  :praise2:  :praise2:  :wine1:

Material supplies seem to be becoming harder everywhere  :( In my day job delivery dates just keep going out what was normally 6 weeks is now 12 weeks, a new crosslinking facility that might have been 9-12 months is now 14-16 months (or more  :toilet_claw: )
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 25, 2021, 10:54:25 PM
Splendid work as ever  :praise2: :praise2: :wine1:

Material supplies seem to be becoming harder everywhere  :( In my day job delivery dates just keep going out what was normally 6 weeks is now 12 weeks, a new crosslinking facility that might have been 9-12 months is now 14-16 months (or more  :toilet_claw: )
Thanks Roger!

Latest reply from Midwest is that 'it went to UPS today, tracking should update tonight'.  We'll see. Getting a nasty ugly hungry shop gnome ready for insertion....  (anybody remember Fawlty Towers episode with the incompetent (like Basil) builder Mr Stubbs? )
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 25, 2021, 10:55:59 PM
First bearing block is fitted to the first side rail....  Three to go.
(https://i.postimg.cc/rpdb0gGj/IMG-9536.jpg)
Went on fairly easily, a little scraping needed in the inside corner of rail where I had to back cut it by hand the other day, but nice snug fit sliding it on.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steamer on June 26, 2021, 01:23:30 AM
Oooooooh.....Brass!!!    I like brass!   

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 26, 2021, 01:43:12 AM
Oooooooh.....Brass!!!    I like brass!   

Dave


Me too, carves great. Too bad its not better with chocolate!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steamer on June 26, 2021, 01:56:08 AM
Damn site more expensive than chocolate too!


 :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 26, 2021, 08:10:12 PM
Some more yummy brass working, got the second of four bearing blocks notched to fit over the engine beds
(https://i.postimg.cc/pVQvKgdy/IMG-9538.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on June 26, 2021, 10:00:34 PM
Nice work, Chris!  Only two more of those to go?

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 26, 2021, 10:25:58 PM
Nice work, Chris!  Only two more of those to go?

Kim
Yes - there are six side rails, but the end cranks are open so they only have a bearing on one side. When I get to drilling the holes for the bearings, getting everything lined up across all three bed plates is important, but difficult since all three are bolted to seperate support legs. This means rather than all three on one common base plate, there are 21 parts between the bed plates and the common base - lots of places for tolerances to stack up! Putting a straightedge across all three makes me thing things are very very close, which is great. Still, I am thinking that I'll bore the holes in the center bed plate, then make a pair of temp bearings sized for a long drill, which will be used to mark the actual center of the crankshaft on the two outer bearing blocks of the six. It will be interesting to see how close it comes to the measured location! The bearings themselves can be bored slightly undersize and lapped out to take care of any slight misalignments. I've never made a model with this layout, other three-cylinder ones were on one common bed plate, so this should be interesting!  The crankshaft and bearing setup when done looks like this:
(https://i.postimg.cc/k4ZGWNqX/Engine_Beds.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on June 26, 2021, 10:51:01 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steam guy willy on June 27, 2021, 02:12:39 AM
Hi this is all coming together really nicely,  lovely work... :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

Willy
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 27, 2021, 02:17:26 PM
Bearing block number three is fitted, one more to go:
(https://i.postimg.cc/rwRhTKQD/IMG-9539.jpg)
After the last one is fitted, I can start notching them to take the bearing caps:
(https://i.postimg.cc/R0rgZ4DX/IMG-9540.jpg)
Still lots more shaping to do on these blocks - notching for the caps, drilling for the mounting bolts, taking them to width, and shaping the bosses on the sides, as well as boring the bearing holes through the whole assembly. The shop elves would go on strike, but its going to be a scorching hot day outside!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RReid on June 27, 2021, 02:56:57 PM
Continuing to impress, Chris! A time lapse video of that thing growing from the base up would be fun to watch. Not that you need anything else to do! ;)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on June 27, 2021, 03:17:53 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 27, 2021, 04:03:11 PM
Continuing to impress, Chris! A time lapse video of that thing growing from the base up would be fun to watch. Not that you need anything else to do! ;)
Darn, the camera on my wayback machine is broke!   :Lol:

Neat idea - wish I had done that from the start, take pictures from a fixed point throughout. I did that on some boatbuilding projects years ago, though never animated them together.

This morning I have been playing in Fusion, doing some more on the Allis engine plans, converting them to a CAD model like I did for the Holly. Long term background project! So far have the foundation blocks/bolts, and the lower pump valve chambers. This eninge has a very different pump arrangement, one intake on the left, one outlet on the right, rather than two inlets/two outlets, and just one set of check valves per side rather than two. About the same volume of water delivered at the end.

(https://i.postimg.cc/XN2CnWHF/Allis-Pump-Engine-1.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 27, 2021, 08:14:04 PM
Got the last bearing block slotted to fit over the side rails. Here they all are, with the centerline of the crankshaft measured out and marked in:
(https://i.postimg.cc/43cXFDyr/IMG-9541.jpg)
Started laying out the notches for the bearing block caps...
(https://i.postimg.cc/bJjqXm2d/IMG-9542.jpg)
The center sits down 1/4" into the bearing block, then later the ends of the block get shaped down into curves leading to the bed rails. First things first though, getting the caps fit to the blocks then drilling the mounting holes, which go all the way through the caps, blocks, and frame rails. That will hold everything secure for the bearing hole drilling/boring steps - those holes are centered on the bottom of the caps, and do go into the side rails a ways too.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on June 28, 2021, 12:10:27 AM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 28, 2021, 03:18:09 PM
So today started notching in the tops of the bearing blocks for the caps. So satisfying when it snicks into place!
(https://i.postimg.cc/TwQzCDBH/IMG-9544.jpg)
and one down
(https://i.postimg.cc/x8CW7d2j/IMG-9545.jpg)
and a two
(https://i.postimg.cc/mk50GGLY/IMG-9546.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RReid on June 28, 2021, 03:26:21 PM
Quote
So satisfying when it snicks into place!
Quote
Few things are better than a good snick. :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 28, 2021, 05:34:47 PM
And the last two are fitted in (snick snick)
(https://i.postimg.cc/sXY34xJM/IMG-9547.jpg)
so started on drilling the bolt holes through the bearing blocks and engine beds, using each cap as a drill guide. Took some careful measurements to get the cap centered on the side rails properly, the sides of the bearing blocks will be trimmed in later. I dropped in some cap screws in the holes as I went to ensure the cap did not move while drilling the rest of the holes.

(https://i.postimg.cc/MHzqPwsd/IMG-9548.jpg)
One cap down, three to go...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on June 28, 2021, 06:03:27 PM
Very nice progress, Chris!

On those bearing blocks, I don't remember seeing that big chunk hanging over the bed plate.  Does it?  Or will it be trimmed back eventually?

Kim 
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 28, 2021, 07:16:32 PM
Hi Kim,
Those blocks still need a lot of shaping. Right now, they stick out like the red outline in this:

(https://i.postimg.cc/sDq6JcHN/Bearing-Block.jpg)

They will be trimmed back flush with the rails at the outside and just stick out in the center like the blue arrow is pointing at. The width of the cap is the final width of that center protrusion, the stock the blocks were cut from is a little wider than the cap still, and a lot wider than the side rails of the bed. The notches I cut in the side rail kept the stock on the sides of the bearing blocks thicker, and prevented any feather edges from forming as I trim them back to final shape.
On the top of the bearing blocks, they will also be trimmed back in a curve under the cap to blend with the top of the bed.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Don1966 on June 29, 2021, 02:40:01 AM
I am interested to see if you line bore these or just bore them one at a time. Are if you will leave play for alignment purposes if you bore one at a time. . I noticed a split shaft arrangement if I am correct. You are one metal carving machinist I can say that much about as good at it as your wood carving. Always great work Chris…. :Love:


 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 29, 2021, 03:32:15 AM
I am interested to see if you line bore these or just bore them one at a time. Are if you will leave play for alignment purposes if you bore one at a time. . I noticed a split shaft arrangement if I am correct. You are one metal carving machinist I can say that much about as good at it as your wood carving. Always great work Chris…. :Love:


 :cheers:
Don


Hi Don,


There's no way to line bore all four at once, since the outside end bed rails come up above the centerline of the crankshaft. I could line bore the center pair, but I don't have a setup or tools for that anyway, and the other two need to be done one at a time. Plus, there is just enough tolerance stackup in the lower frames, with 21 parts, that I can't just clamp up the bearing blocks, even ignoring the fact that the top of the siderails need to be part of the bore. The bed frames and bearing blocks add up to 3.25" wide which is too long for normal boring head tool.

So, long-winded way of saying that I need to bore them separately!  The other day I sketched out a jig to use on the center bed frame, to get those two holes aligned, will show that when I make it. Then, will make a pair of tube guides to fit those bores and hold a long drill or point to mark the outer two bearing blocks for boring.


May not come across in text well, but all fairly straightforward with a couple of jigs to do the alignment work. Stay tuned this coming week to see my thinking.


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Elam Works on June 29, 2021, 05:15:28 AM
Given that the loading will not be that high, could you 'pot' the bearing shells or housing in something that would setup while all the bearings were held in alignment with a straight piece of ground shafting? Sort of a variation of pouring Babbit bearings in-suti using the shaft as the alignment tool. 

-Doug
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 29, 2021, 01:47:25 PM
Given that the loading will not be that high, could you 'pot' the bearing shells or housing in something that would setup while all the bearings were held in alignment with a straight piece of ground shafting? Sort of a variation of pouring Babbit bearings in-suti using the shaft as the alignment tool. 

-Doug
That's an interesting idea Doug. Bore the holes for the bearings slightly oversize and bed the bearings in JB Weld maybe? Hmmmm, that could fix any small alignment errors. The bearings have to be split since the crankshaft has wider sections at the flywheels (two, one between each bed frame) so the bearings could not be slipped over the ends. The flywheels will be 5 or 6 pounds each.


Great idea, will experiment with that! Thanks!! :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 29, 2021, 02:25:07 PM
Oh, and I found this picture of the engineer who designed the Holly engine going out for lunch....    :lolb:
(https://i.postimg.cc/kGs3jXgw/Lion-Stilts.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 29, 2021, 04:24:40 PM
With the holes for the bearing cap bolts all drilled, time to move on to making the studs and nuts. I have small pattern 5-40 nuts, but they are not close enough to proper scale so I'll make my own. The studs are threaded both ends, and 2.4" long. One thing I've wanted to do for a while is set up for single-point threading on the Sherline, which does have a threading attachment set that adds gears outside the drive pulleys and a big crank. It works, but has some flaws - the gears are mounted to bearings on two flat plates which pivot on a screw at one end to accomodate the different size gears. The first plate clamps on a post around the leadscrew. All good thoughts, but the forces involved in turning the gears against the force of the cutter make the two pivot points want to move and let the gears (which have small teeth) skip. Also, the handwheel size requires that you either remove the motor or add a long extension which doesnt work out well. The only time I've given the threading set a real workout was on the Stanley engine, threading the engine block for the end caps. Worked, but did have some problems with the plates moving, nearly ruining the parts.

So, as I mentioned a couple weeks ago, I had picked up a second Sherline lathe short-bed/headstock without a motor to set up as a dedicated threading station. Actually, the way the price worked out, getting the motor/speed control in the base package was nearly the same price as buying the bare bed/headstock, so I got the base package and set the motor/speed control aside for spares for when I eventually wear one out - bound to happen given the amount of use I give them.
The threading attachment plates were modified to add an adjustment bolt that will keep the two from pivotting on the end screw once the gears are meshing. This bolt does not press in on the gears, just limits the movement to keep the plates from pushing apart. Also was going to add an adjustable post down to the table to keep the other pivot in place, but for now found a bit of bar stock in the bin to prop under it to see how it all works.
(https://i.postimg.cc/gctf00Ty/IMG-9552.jpg)
That seems to work great - adjust the plates/gears for proper mesh, then just hand-tighten the bolt and prop. Nothing has shifted a bit in the first pieces threaded, so happy with that. Here is the first of the 1/8" diameter studs threaded and test with a stock nut (too large across the flats, will make my own to scale size). It took extra passes on the first one, to work out the depth of cut, the rest should go quicker. I need 16 studs, threaded at each end.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Fz6qCPLC/IMG-9549.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Don1966 on June 29, 2021, 04:25:27 PM
I was thinking on that second to last post. Using JB weld might be a good idea, but when you have weight pushing down on it it would move. If the bottom bearing sleeve is not a half shell but 3/4 shell then that might not happen. Just thinking out loud……


Thoughts Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 29, 2021, 04:27:52 PM
I wax’s think on that second to last post. Using JB weld might be a good idea, but when you have weight pushing down on it it would move. If the bottom bearing sleeve is not a half shell but 3/4 shell then that might not happen. Just thinking out loud……


Thoughts Don
Cant be anything more than a half shell, or I cant get it on the crankshaft with its wider sections around the flywheels and gear mount. Good point about the bearing moving or spinning. Maybe get it installed and bedded, then drill for a small brass pin to keep it from shifting?
 :thinking:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: kvom on June 30, 2021, 11:52:30 AM
My experience with threading studs indicated that testing in a tapped hole is needed as nuts are looser.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 30, 2021, 01:51:43 PM
My experience with threading studs indicated that testing in a tapped hole is needed as nuts are looser.
Ah - had forgotten about that!  Just went and tested with a tapped hole, and I got lucky, the nut I used for testing must have been on the smaller end of the tolerances, the studs I have made so far worked fine. Both ends of these studs will have nuts on them, but ones that I am tapping vs commercial ones.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 30, 2021, 07:45:32 PM
All the bearing block studs are threaded both ends, and about half of the nuts made from some .187 hex stock, they look a lot better than the commercial ones, which are thinner and .25 across the flats. One more batch of nuts to turn out and I can move on to boring the bearing holes.
(https://i.postimg.cc/4xrJFmxf/IMG-9553.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on June 30, 2021, 08:25:49 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

It might be wise to store the finished studs and nuts in a female / squirrel-proof container.  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 30, 2021, 09:51:30 PM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

It might be wise to store the finished studs and nuts in a female / squirrel-proof container.  :Lol:


 :LittleDevil:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 30, 2021, 11:57:22 PM
And all 16 stud/nut sets complete
(https://i.postimg.cc/76S4Q2H3/IMG-9561.jpg)
next will move on to boring the crankshaft bearing holes in the engine beds.    :paranoia:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on July 01, 2021, 01:03:20 AM
That's a lot of work in that little pile!

The nuts sure do look nice though!

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 01, 2021, 01:39:11 AM
That's a lot of work in that little pile!

The nuts sure do look nice though!

Kim
Thanks Kim!   Good practice for the 12 rods that will connect the pump plungers to the crossheads later on. Same basic shape but bigger, they will go around the cranks to drive the pumps.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steam guy willy on July 01, 2021, 03:04:58 AM
Hi  those studs are looking the part with those smaller nuts ...over here in Blighty you can get one size smaller nut heads in the BA sizes from EKP ...this saves us a lot of work !!  good progress ... :) :)

Willy
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Swarf Maker on July 01, 2021, 09:58:43 AM
Just one very, very minor observation Chris.  Nuts with each face chamfered are not usually encountered in this class of heavy engineering.  The face against the part being retained is usually flat.  Double chamfers are for general purpose nuts in the hardware store is my understanding.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on July 01, 2021, 12:44:56 PM
Goodness Swarf Maker .....when considering Chris's nuts, I am sure careful consideration was made relative to relief angle [no nuts were ever designed to have 100% [flat] engagement, but reduced by 1/96th negative to the AF dimension]

Then we must consider flat washers were never just those punched out rings, but a Graded Carbon steel, machined, then heat-treated to acceptt the induced torque  :killcomputer:

Naturally when I quote 1/96th, as obviously being Imperial [as copied by the US] .........

I am sure Chris has any issues with his nuts in hand  :ROFL:

Derek

-----------
PS...sorry ..I cannot see your location, however if in Europe & using the Si System, then nut face relief face /angle would be  reduced by 1/100 th negative to the AF dimension]
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 01, 2021, 02:50:28 PM
Just one very, very minor observation Chris.  Nuts with each face chamfered are not usually encountered in this class of heavy engineering.  The face against the part being retained is usually flat.  Double chamfers are for general purpose nuts in the hardware store is my understanding.
I went back and looked in the photos I have of the Holly engines, and you may be right on the chamfers - the outside end definitely has the corners relieved, the inside end its harder to tell with the layers of old paint and dirt but they do appear to be flat!  I have close-up photos of the ones on the Allis engine in Boston, and on those I can tell that just the outside is chamfered.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 01, 2021, 03:01:25 PM
Goodness Swarf Maker .....when considering Chris's nuts, I am sure careful consideration was made relative to relief angle [no nuts were ever designed to have 100% [flat] engagement, but reduced by 1/96th negative to the AF dimension]

Then we must consider flat washers were never just those punched out rings, but a Graded Carbon steel, machined, then heat-treated to acceptt the induced torque  :killcomputer:

Naturally when I quote 1/96th, as obviously being Imperial [as copied by the US] .........

I am sure Chris has any issues with his nuts in hand  :ROFL:

Derek

-----------
PS...sorry ..I cannot see your location, however if in Europe & using the Si System, then nut face relief face /angle would be  reduced by 1/100 th negative to the AF dimension]
Derek, sounds like you are talking more about how flat the faces are, I think SwarfMaker is talking more about the relief on the corners on the end faces.  Here is a closeup snipped from a photo on the Allis engine that has and extreme chamfer/roundover:
(https://i.postimg.cc/9Xx2ht9J/Nut-Chamfer.jpg)
The Holly engine does not go this far on its nuts, it just has the corners of the flats rounded off, here is one on the Holly engine:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Gp1wQM0h/Nut-Chamfer2.jpg)
On both, its interesting to see that they sized the studs to end at the top of the nuts in most places rather than come through a thread or two - I can see in other photos that they are not bolts, they are studs/nuts. I do not have good pics of the Holly bearing cap tops, from the walkway I could only get within 40 or 50 feet and they are in the shadows. I do have a good shot of the bearing caps on the Allis, where I could get a lot closer, they are very similar in shape to the Holly:
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZnQXyHFm/Nut-Chamfer3.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: ddmckee54 on July 01, 2021, 04:14:03 PM
The solution is simple at this scale.

Assemble the engine then gob on a couple thick coats of paint over the nuts, brush painted of course.  When you're short of REAL work you send the apprentice - in your case elves - out with a bucket of paint and a paint brush, not a spray-gun. (At least that's what happened when I started work many-many moons ago.)

It'll look just like the real thing, and you won't be able to tell if the nuts are chamfered on both ends or not.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 01, 2021, 05:03:30 PM
The solution is simple at this scale.

Assemble the engine then gob on a couple thick coats of paint over the nuts, brush painted of course.  When you're short of REAL work you send the apprentice - in your case elves - out with a bucket of paint and a paint brush, not a spray-gun. (At least that's what happened when I started work many-many moons ago.)

It'll look just like the real thing, and you won't be able to tell if the nuts are chamfered on both ends or not.

Don
The LAST thing I need is my shop elves with buckets (well, thimbles) of black paint!!  Starts out fine, then the paint flicking starts, then the graffiti (Your mother was a gnome, that sort of thing) on the walls, then the bucket over the head (thiers, then mine) ....    :lolb:

This morning I WAS going to start drilling/boring for the bearings, but last night I realized that to avoid interrupted cuts I needed to first take the sides of the bearing blocks down to match the width of the caps as they will be when finished. So, started that this morning instead...   :slap:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on July 02, 2021, 01:09:52 AM
Chris....

If we could find a 130 year old copy of "Engineering Machine Practice" **  :happyreader: , we would find confirmation that the height of these high tensile flat washers was gauged to suit the as installed extended height, of the stud after installation ..

This procedure being a throw-back from Victorian Engineering Rules, as can be seen in your example that the end radius of the stud machined  to equal the radius of the nut

So yes, at the turn of the Century [early 1900's], accurate height reduction would have been via a surface grinding machine.....& yes each washer was match marked for each stud

We would also read that a relief was made on the lower face to equal 1 degree of angularity from the point of the hex, to the flat of the hex, then minus 1/96 of that dimension...... :shrug:

Earlier in this thread we mentioned that the method of applying an accurate level of induced torque for such mountings was via a 28lb hammer  over the Flogging Spanner  :killcomputer:

** not to be confused with the popular "Machinary's Handbook" - Volume 1 [First printed 1914]

Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on July 02, 2021, 01:31:59 AM
Elfensteiner stubbies and black paint - a potent combination of chemicals! (you remember what happened to Mr Ethan Oll and the green paint incident during the Mann truck build...... a shameful moment for shop elves.)   :Lol:

 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: kvom on July 02, 2021, 10:33:08 AM
Quote
Starts out fine, then the paint flicking starts

Like another well known gnome:  starts out being an oil executive in Ukraine and then blowing paint through a straw.   :LittleDevil:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 02, 2021, 01:35:54 PM
Wow, did we head off into the weeds or what...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 02, 2021, 04:47:31 PM
Okay - back on the build, catching up on whats been happening the last couple of days. Before boring the bearing holes, the sides of the bearing blocks needed to be taken down to width, matching the width of the bearing caps, so that there would not be an interupted cut when drilling/boring the bearing holes through them. This picture shows the block before milling off the outside:

(https://i.postimg.cc/vB15YT6S/IMG-9562.jpg)
and after:
(https://i.postimg.cc/YqBQ7p2b/IMG-9563.jpg)
This was done on all four blocks, and likewise milled off the inside faces.

Then on to actually boring the holes. Since the engine beds are over 3" wide, no way I could use the boring head to do it all from one side, and as described in an earlier post the option of line boring would not work out for all the beds. So, I needed a way to align the holes through when drilling from either side. Went through a few methods, and settled on this one. I took a piece of offcut aluminum from the bin, and drilled/counterbored so that it could be bolted to the mill table. This piece has a recess in the underside so that I could bore in from the top, and break through without harming the mill table.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZKPpK1CZ/IMG-9565.jpg)
With that block bolted to the mill table, the IP engine bed (center one with bearings on both sides) was clamped down over the block on its side, with the location of the bearing hole roughly centered over the recess on the bottom. The mill table was adjusted till the drill center was lined up with the center of the bearing hole, which is on the center of the seam between the bearing block and the cap. At this point, the mill table X/Y movements were both locked down and left locked for the rest of the steps.
(https://i.postimg.cc/BnMF2HTV/IMG-9569.jpg)
After checking that the bed was square to the table, and the center of the drill was lined up, drilled the starter hole for the bearing. The finished hole will need to be 0.828" diameter.
(https://i.postimg.cc/hvTxmYsL/IMG-9571.jpg)
Switched to the boring head, and started enlargine the hole...
(https://i.postimg.cc/T2DnByxK/IMG-9572.jpg)
A lot of cranking later, and the hole was out to size:
(https://i.postimg.cc/3wNv1N9J/IMG-9573.jpg)
So far so good. Now to put the alignement block to actual use. The bed was unclamped and all the swarf dumped into the shop elves sandbox for them to play in. Then, drilled a starter hole through the alignment block and bored it out a ways - size of that hole is not critical, just needed to be on the same axis as the hole bored in the bed, and since the mill table was locked down that should be the case. The recess in the bottom of the plate let me bore through without harming the mill table. Carefully...

(https://i.postimg.cc/zGJWL0gh/IMG-9574.jpg)
Then popped over to the lathe and turned up this little chunk of roundbar to fit the bore in the engine bed. A short nub was turned on the end to fit the hole in the alignment plate - worked out well, press fit in the plate, and sliding fit in the engine bed hole.
(https://i.postimg.cc/s2LZNz0P/IMG-9575.jpg)
Then the moment of truth - slid the engine bed over the post,
(https://i.postimg.cc/bJ22X5K7/IMG-9576.jpg)
 and clamped it down to the table. Then ran a drill down to the starter hole, and .... it lined right up!!   :whoohoo:
(https://i.postimg.cc/gjFLGDpn/IMG-9577.jpg)
So, all lined up, now I can bore the matching hole in the other side out to size. The shop elves have gotten the boring head reinstalled on the mill for me.
(https://i.postimg.cc/wMXyMmxF/IMG-9578.jpg)
All went well till they said it was all in place and to turn it on. Too bad he was still sitting on the boring head at the time....   :LittleDevil:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on July 02, 2021, 05:14:02 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 02, 2021, 06:28:43 PM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
:cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: ddmckee54 on July 02, 2021, 06:34:30 PM
It's a good thing the elves don't know about OHSA, and even more importantly that OSHA doesn't know about the elves.  Otherwise you'd be buried in the paperwork for their Lock Out Tag Out violations.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 02, 2021, 07:08:55 PM
It's a good thing the elves don't know about OHSA, and even more importantly that OSHA doesn't know about the elves.  Otherwise you'd be buried in the paperwork for their Lock Out Tag Out violations.

Don
OSHA came a couple times, left crying and covered in swarf...  The elves used the tags as Christmas ornaments!

Speaking of angry elves, I need to stuff some down the shorts of the support people at Duplicolor paints.   :Mad:
Several weeks ago I had bought some of their engine enamel in white - been using their ceramic engine paints for a long time on steam engines, boilers, RC submarines, all sorts of stuff, works great. This one can was a dud - came out like a garden hose rather than like an aerosol. Okay, they get a bad unit once in a while, not that big a deal. So, I contacted their support group, gave them the requested bar codes and batch codes, and they were very nice, and sent me a replacement can of the spray paint. Bit of a delay, but okay. This was for a new submarine model that is still in progress, so not a big deal on lost time.
It arrived today, got it shook up and fortunately did a test spray on cardboard first. SAME problem as the first can. Looked at the batch codes - its from the SAME SWARFING BATCH!   :cussing: :Mad: :cussing: :Mad:   They had asked for the batch codes to track it back and do quality control checks. Gee, that worked well... At least I didn't need to sand off all the goo this time.

So, looks like the blew it on that whole batch, either a bad set of nozzles or they mixed the paint wrong, comes out as a 1/4" thick stream of goo, looks more like spray foam insulation coming out. The first can came from an auto store, this new one straight from the factory.
Just sent them another note with pictures and details, kept the language clean barely. We'll see what they say.In the meantime, I am preparing a bag of mean nasty ugly hungry rabid shop gnomes to mail them...
End rant. Back to the pumping engine!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RReid on July 02, 2021, 08:27:39 PM
Excellent solution to the boring (no, not boring, I mean the repeatable hole making) problem Chris!  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 02, 2021, 08:30:58 PM
After getting the shop elf off the chandelier down the hall, where he landed when I turned on the mill as he was sitting on the boring head, I got the other hole bored in the middle engine bed:
(https://i.postimg.cc/RZrbJ31f/IMG-9584.jpg)
Then, since I didnt need the post in the alignment fixture anymore (other two beds have one hole each since the end cranks are open style) I reused the post for the marking fixture I need next - bored a hole through it to match the long 3/8" drill I have, and parted it into two sections:
(https://i.postimg.cc/QMm6z02k/IMG-9585.jpg)
so the two sections slip over the drill
(https://i.postimg.cc/Gpd7zZ5m/IMG-9586.jpg)
and the guides slip into the engine bed holes to hold the drill centered
(https://i.postimg.cc/qv8DskQF/IMG-9587.jpg)
Now I can re-assemble the engine beds onto the vertical pump colums, the center section plus one end one at a time, and use the drill to mark where the center of the crankshaft lands on the two end ones. Should be able to either turn the drill by hand or use a slow speed hand drill, just need the mark where it lands to guide me in setting up the two other engine beds for boring. That will get the centerline very close, and my straight-edge checks show the angle alignment will be close as well. I am expecting there to be some slight binding points unless I get really lucky, but a little Timesavers compound should fix that. So far, so good!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 02, 2021, 08:32:11 PM
Excellent solution to the boring (no, not boring, I mean the repeatable hole making) problem Chris!  :ThumbsUp:
Getting bearing holes drilled/bored through wide engine beds is always a tricky thing, through seperate beds on stilts has had me very nervous!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 02, 2021, 09:59:44 PM
And I got the parts assembled back onto the model to mark the crankshaft centerline. Here is what it looked like marking the HP engine bed end. The long drill is run through the guides in the bearing holes, and was turned by hand to make a mark on the side of the bearing block/cap. On this end, the mark was dead center on the cap/block seam horizontally and vertically.
(https://i.postimg.cc/MGsyJ4d5/IMG-9588.jpg)
and marking the LP bearing block. On this one, the mark was dead on vertically, but horizontally it is slightly off. Checking measurements show that somehow I goofed when notching the side rail for the bearing block - the block is off to one side a bit. Must have mis-measured something, or miscounted crank turns. Its still close enough to work though I'm glad I did this marking, to know where the centerline actually wound up. If I had not goofed something on the bearing block it would have been spot on, so I am pleasantly surprised things are stacking up so well given the number of parts involved.
(https://i.postimg.cc/C1zbhN2g/IMG-9590.jpg)
So, thats a good place to break for the day, tomorrow I can start boring the last two bearing holes. After that, I can get on to shaping the outside faces of the bearing blocks - they get blended in to the side rails, and flare out near the bearing itself. One of the faces gets shaped and drilled to hold the bevel gear housing for the lay shaft, and all of them need to be drilled/tapped for brackets to hold the catwalk floors between the beds. After all that, I think it will be time to work on the crankshaft itself. Unless I remember some other parts still needing to be made first!
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 03, 2021, 03:29:48 PM
This morning got the LP engine bed bored for the crankshaft bearing. The drill-marking trick has worked, this one was the one where the bearing block ws a little off to the side, so if I had gone from measurements from its edge it would have bound up the bearing. With the long drill slid through the drill guides (had made four slices, one for each block) on the three bored so far, it rotates freely.   :cartwheel:   You can see the drill guides in the bearing holes - the drill is .375", the bearing holes are .828".
(https://i.postimg.cc/v8nqnJMk/IMG-9591.jpg)
That just leaves the HP bearing to drill for...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on July 03, 2021, 04:38:02 PM
Very interesting technique, Chris!  Seems to have worked well for you here.
Nice work  :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 03, 2021, 05:13:24 PM
Thanks Kim! Very pleased with how well it worked. Just finished boring the last bearing block hole,
(https://i.postimg.cc/hjN71Z8t/IMG-9592.jpg)
and things line up for that one as well - at least as much as I can tell with this drill, dont have a length of 3/8" rod the right length handy, and I dont want to cut a longer one down just for this test. The drill is a couple inches too long to fit within the bed rails on either end.

(https://i.postimg.cc/sxSG6PK9/IMG-9593.jpg)
So, with each set of three lining up very well, I'm going to call this a roaring success and move on to shaping the sides of the bearing blocks down to final profile - full width under the cap, then they swoop in and blend with the sides of the rails.Before that though, this afternoon/evening am off to my cousins place at the lake, an old tradition there to hold a lake-wide party called the Ring Of Fire the night before the Fourth of July (Independance Day here in the US). Bonfires all round the lake, fireworks in all directions, parties at all the cottages, huge fun.
 :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Don1966 on July 03, 2021, 06:13:56 PM
Very clever and intuitive Dog and you’re still the man………….I……………..likeeeeeeet……  :Love:



 :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 03, 2021, 06:41:53 PM
Very clever and intuitive Dog and you’re still the man………….I……………..likeeeeeeet……  :Love:



 :drinking-41:
Don
Thanks Don! This one has been getting a lot of thought and worry for a while, very happy that it worked!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 03, 2021, 08:21:38 PM
Okay, I know there are some people here that have worked on commercial-sized piping and fittings, here is a question for you:

On both the Holly and the Allis engine plans, there are a number of places where they have large pipes (like in the 2 to 4 foot diameter range) coming out of chambers, all cast in one piece (these are both from the early 1900s if that matters). On all of them, they have these thick box shapes where the pipes come out of the chambers, with a bolt through them. Here is a picture showing some on the Allis pump/valve chambers:
(https://i.postimg.cc/NMVprwdJ/Pipe-Flange-Question.jpg)
The red arrows are pointing at the shapes I mean. They are cast into the whole structure - these pipes are not welded in later (the plans show casting cores, all that, they are showing the shapes to be molded).  They have a single stud with nuts at each end to form a bolt, going from end to end of the box shape (not shown in my picture), but there is nothing for the bolt to hold other than that boxy shape.

So, the end question - WHY do they put those box shapes on there?? It doesnt make sense for a place to pull the pipes together - in this example the bolt flanges would be in the way for that, and in other cases there is just a man-hole cap, no pipe to pull in. And, at first I thought it was a place to lift it, but its way off center, and they have them on all pipes coming out, no matter the positions they are at.

Is it for strength, across the arc of the chamber? These are pressure holding chambers, so maybe?

Some of you guys that make (or made before retirement) large boilers/pipes/reactors should know this - free box of shop elves to the first to answer (with a valid answer anyway) !
 :headscratch:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: john mills on July 04, 2021, 12:02:10 AM
this is an interesting project   i have been following
I think about how they made  and machined these parts  did they have big machines  horizontal borers   and lathes  big enough. would they have used those boses to mount a device to finish the flange face .or just a fixture for holding for machining .i gets there was a lot of hand fitting  to get final  alignment and suitable fits.
   John.
           
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on July 04, 2021, 01:56:13 AM
The Book  :happyreader: says......'Good Designers are the Machinist's best friend' 

Courtesy of Google, as I cannot find my 130 year old copy of Foundry Practice  :Lol:

But John [as first past the post] wins the Prize of Elves + Cookies....

Yes, these holes provide substantial alignment and rigidity during the initial or primary machining of the smaller flange face exiting the main spool....after this is completed, the main spool body would be tipped 90 degrees and supported on that [now flat] face, so to machine both of the outer fange faces, all achieved on the Horizontal Borer

NB.....there are very few detailed Texts on Patternmaking of Olde......these Blokes were 'Journeyman of Patternmaking' and training in the late 1800's, who later taught Patternmaking to appentrices by word of mouth about shrinkage & the like......[long before Schools of Technical Works]

Derek  :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on July 04, 2021, 02:16:30 AM
I certainly don't know for sure what the bosses and studs were for, exactly, but a few thoughts below on possibilities:

1. The large cylindrical chambers presumably have to be aligned fairly accurately between centres, to align with the pump chamber bolted flange joints. The real question is how the bolted flange joint between chambers was sealed and tightened while keeping the centre to centre alignment with the pump chambers. Were the chambers aligned, then lead or babbit poured in the joint groove to seal it, wherever the flanges ended up? If so, maybe the holes / studs held a mould in place while the joint was poured. (a rubber gasket in a groove in the face may have been used to seal the joint too, but that might allow misalignment, which was what made me think of a leaded joint as used on some steam traction engine cyl to boiler joints.)
2. The holes might have been needed as tooling holes to establish datums or holddowns for flange cutting / bolt hole drilling operations.
3. Were the studs maybe used as anchor points / holding method for strainer grilles or maybe additional check valve grids inside the chamber / passage?
4. The holes and some temporary use longer studs may have been used with 4 turnbuckle type devices to pull the flanges together on a rubber seal for bolting, if chamber alignment was not so important or accomplished another way.

Points to ponder.   :headscratch: :thinking: :DrinkPint:

(if I should win the bucket of elves by some crazy accident of fate, I hereby defer the win and suggest you send them to Eagle Mountain Brewery to help with slushing out the mash tuns)  :Lol:

Engine progress looks great!   :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Happy July 4th to all forum members in the USA! :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 04, 2021, 04:07:11 AM
Going through the plans some more, and those square boxes and bolts are only on the pipe sections under internal pressure, not on any under internal suction. The plans do show gaskets, don't say what kind. All the faces, high pressure or not, are machined flat, and have many bolts on thier flanges to draw them up. Even the pipes that are manholes with covers have the boxes. All run horizontal on vertical chambers, which makes me wonder about adding strength where the pipe section comes out perpendicular to the chamber.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 04, 2021, 05:43:23 PM
Coming down to the last few steps, well, maybe a dozen steps, on the bearing blocks and engine beds. This morning got started taking the sides of the bearing blocks down to final profile. Here is what they are looking like before this step:
(https://i.postimg.cc/85XySttL/IMG-9594.jpg)

The sides of the bearing blocks are just that - blocks, sticking out from the side rails. With the engine bed squared up to the mill table and clamped down, the sides were taken down at the ends to be flush with the side rails. Started with the top half - tried a longer end mill to do it all at once, but the finish was not smooth so I went back to a standard length cutter.

(https://i.postimg.cc/GtZqB902/IMG-9595.jpg)
Did the cuts on the inside and outside rail edges, then flipped the part over to do the bottom halves of all four corners
(https://i.postimg.cc/MHc9KVFN/IMG-9596.jpg)
Will do the same on the other two engine beds, then move on to doing the top ends, to get them shaped to the top of the side rails. One of the bearing block faces, the one on the IP cylinder facing the HP cylinder side, gets a different shape than this, to form the mount for the lay shaft drive gear. That will be done last, as will rounding the bottom edges of the bearing blocks.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on July 04, 2021, 07:42:34 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 04, 2021, 09:42:49 PM
Some more information on that square box/bolt thingy on the pump housings - I was digging through the Holly blueprints some more, and found this gem:
(https://i.postimg.cc/W3gJT7mh/Pipe-Flange-Question-2.jpg)
In several places they refer to the bolts on those box shapes around the flanges as 'Stay Bolts' - a term I am used to seeing on boiler plans. Given the location, horizontally above and below an opening and that they are only present on pressurized chambers, not there on intake/suction chambers, this lends more credence to the theory that it is there for strength purposes, helping reinforce the opening against the outward pressure. The bolts through them would give compression to that area.
Unless any of the commercial-vessel experts have another explanation?
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 04, 2021, 09:51:00 PM
And a little more on the bearing blocks - got the sides all milled down like in the previous post, so next step is to round over the bottoms of the protrusions on the sides. Easiest way to do that was to pull the blocks off the engine beds and mount them on the rotary table with an arbor and mill that edge. Hard to see in the photo, but the bottom edge was taken back in an arc to the level of the panels at the end, which are at the level of the side rails. Both sides of each bearing block, except for the one face with the gear housing mount, will be taken down this way.
(https://i.postimg.cc/d08q0NXP/IMG-9599.jpg)
To get the cap to stay on, some little sections of tube were cut to act as spacers on the studs, the threaded ends were not long enough to hold the cap on without the rest of the engine bed being there.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on July 05, 2021, 12:19:27 AM
Hi Chris, re stay bolts - that note indicates to me too that the bolts are helping the casting withstand internal pressures, just like stay bolts in a boiler do.

The bearing machining looks great!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 05, 2021, 12:23:58 AM
Hi Chris, re stay bolts - that note indicates to me too that the bolts are helping the casting withstand internal pressures, just like stay bolts in a boiler do.

The bearing machining looks great!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:


Great!  I asked a couple friends about it too, one passed it along to a structure engineer he knows, he said same thing. Calling that one explained!   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on July 05, 2021, 12:58:50 AM
Explained?.......not sure  :shrug:

The issue I could not understand was how did they ensure these bolts were adequately tightened?.......or became loose due to gross cyclic or harmonic vibration?.....so this at first appears to be resolved with the following explanation 'courtesy Google'

Locomotive Boilers and Engines. Stay-Bolts. The universal method of staying flat surfaces of the fire-box at the sides and front is by the use of stay-bolts. These stay-bolts are screwed through the two sheets of the fire-box and are riveted over on both ends.

Would be interesting if these 'riveting procedures instructions :hammerbash: appear in any assembly Drawings

Fully explained?.......:disagree: ... the stay bolts in the boiler explanation as above relates for the securing two [2] opposing 'separated surfaces'  :Argue: .....in this pipe spool application the bolts only provide tension to the diameter of the washer for the 3" diameter threaded stud, within the 'solid section' of the cast lug  :headscratch:


Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 05, 2021, 01:25:31 AM
Hi Derek,


Unfortunately no assembly instructions included in the drawings for this or any other parts, so no way to be sure. Some  places they mention machining a surface or reaming a hole for a taper pin, but thats it. Probably lots of procedures that those crews knew to do, but no ISO9000 stuff back then! The fact that two different companies did the same thing on similar parts indicates it was not done on one designer's whim.


At least it's a reasonable explanation for the feature on he casting, it had to withstand pressure pulses every couple seconds, hard to say how high the pressure was, certainly a lot less than a boiler, but repeated.


Chris
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on July 05, 2021, 01:45:38 AM
Absolutely.....lets get me back to watching [again] :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:.... & keep the mouth closed apart from a :wine1:

Our engineering forefathers :NotWorthy: were certainly not Mugs :Doh: ...our current Crew are so smart, they still cannot figure how their fathers did things without computers & CNC & faith in a supreme power

Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: MJM460 on July 05, 2021, 04:31:41 AM
Hi Chris, I have not seen a detail like that in my forty years in the oil industry, but for me, that “stay bolt” note settles which of the two likely purposes others have proposed was intended.  However it may well have been used for both purposes.  Of course, the oil industry does not use cast fittings for pressure piping, but when those engines were built, available material and fabrication techniques were different.

Normally, a side branch is reinforced by the “area replacement” method, which results in the reinforcing pads normally seen around pressure vessel nozzles, or integral reinforcement on forged tee fittings.

However in this case, there is a very large diameter branch in a very short fitting, making it difficult to fit in sufficient reinforcement.  Those bolts would add considerably to the strength of the fitting to withstand the circumferential stresses in the straight section.  The longitudinal stresses are only half the circumferential stress for any given pressure, so longitudinal bolts would not be needed.  Particularly with cast fittings, those steel bolts in tension would be considerably stronger than the cast iron, so by pre-compressing the iron they would help ensure the integrity of the fitting in the absence of sufficient other reinforcing.  Note that this is a very different application than the boiler staybolts as Derek has described for flat plates.

But I am also hoping that Propforward will come in here, as he is using far more sophisticated tools than were ever available to me for these calculations.

Regarding the pressure involved, I did notice your little hint a while back that I could explain water hammer in my thermodynamics thread.  I have sorted out sufficient maths, but am still thinking about how to present it so it is actually understandable for anyone interested.  I have the book by an expert, but while chapter one is very clear, I am sure the author dropped the papers on the floor before publishing and there seems to be three chapters missing between chapter one and two.  Certainly a leap too far for me.  The maths to get started is simple enough, to get as far as pulsation levels  and forces, but how to present it without a pile of unintelligible graphs is a challenge.  So stay tuned, it is coming

MJM460


Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 05, 2021, 01:01:49 PM
Great MJM, thanks!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 05, 2021, 08:55:07 PM
Got the rest of the bearing block sides acred at the bottom yesterday, the one with the mounting pad for the gearbox gets a much simpler side panel, just one large semmicircle.
(https://i.postimg.cc/N0kVGDZL/IMG-9600.jpg)
that is drilled for the gearbox mounting screws
(https://i.postimg.cc/zv622cH2/IMG-9601.jpg)
While the rotary table was set up for that set of holes, I put in an offcut piece of roundbar and drilled it to match the pattern. This will be used as a drill alignment guide when the gearbox housing is made later. Carefully marked to what it is so I have a chance of finding it later on.

(https://i.postimg.cc/QtNzF5rm/IMG-9602.jpg)
So here is where the parts stand at the moment
(https://i.postimg.cc/PJPF4jJ8/IMG-9603.jpg)
Next shaping will be on the upper corners of the bearing blocks where they go across the top of the side rails.
(https://i.postimg.cc/MZFLGv30/IMG-9604.jpg)
They were rounded off using an end mill and taken flush to the tops of the side rails.
(https://i.postimg.cc/gJMT8JzW/IMG-9605.jpg)
That finishes the shaping of the bearing blocks and the engine beds
(https://i.postimg.cc/DwVYqRT8/IMG-9606.jpg)
Getting close to done on them - got the holes drilled/tapped in the sides of the engine beds for the brackets to hold the catwalk floor at that level. The catwalk goes around the entire engine, in the center between the beds the floor is a step higher to give better access to the bearings. Lots of 1-72 holes to thread, glad I have the tapping guide now.

(https://i.postimg.cc/7YJWJwjF/IMG-9607.jpg)
Final steps before assembling things again is to sand down the toolmarks
(https://i.postimg.cc/L8zQvv9v/IMG-9608.jpg)
and get things painted....  I need to test if I'll be able to get between the engine beds to install the floor brackets there, or if they need to be made first. Assembly is going to be fiddly, the vertical braces down to the pump chambers need to go in at the same time so the order of things will need to be worked out to ensure I can get at all the screws.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on July 05, 2021, 09:52:11 PM
Wow, Chris!  That is a lot of nice work.  I'll bet you're happy to move on to something besides bearing blocks now!  :popcorn: :popcorn:

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 05, 2021, 09:57:25 PM
Wow, Chris!  That is a lot of nice work.  I'll bet you're happy to move on to something besides bearing blocks now!  :popcorn: :popcorn:

Kim
Yeah, to bearings!!   :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Admiral_dk on July 05, 2021, 10:43:31 PM
Still enjoying your Journey and fine work  :praise2:   :cheers:   :popcorn:

Quote
While the rotary table was set up for that set of holes, I put in an offcut piece of roundbar and drilled it to match the pattern. This will be used as a drill alignment guide when the gearbox housing is made later. Carefully marked to what it is so I have a chance of finding it later on.

Very good idea - but I do not see any reference showing what side it belongs to .... please don't do like I do from time to time and "mirror" the reference  :embarassed:

Per
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 05, 2021, 10:51:15 PM
Still enjoying your Journey and fine work  :praise2:   :cheers:   :popcorn:

Quote
While the rotary table was set up for that set of holes, I put in an offcut piece of roundbar and drilled it to match the pattern. This will be used as a drill alignment guide when the gearbox housing is made later. Carefully marked to what it is so I have a chance of finding it later on.

Very good idea - but I do not see any reference showing what side it belongs to .... please don't do like I do from time to time and "mirror" the reference  :embarassed:

Per
The holes are evenly spaced around the rim, so the side doesn't matter - though the side with the writing on it is the side facing away from the engine bed. The main thing I wanted to capture was the actual distance from the center of the shaft, that is hard to measure on these shapes in any case, and when the engine beds are assembled on the model getting in to measure that would be even harder. So, used a disc from the scrap bin to capture it!
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 06, 2021, 12:06:54 AM
Just went down and grabbed the engine beds from my paint booth (a cardboard lined bench) - wow, what a difference in the appearance with a single coat on!
(https://i.postimg.cc/xj4rhsKP/IMG-9609.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: kvom on July 06, 2021, 12:01:01 PM
A lot of work there!   :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on July 06, 2021, 12:11:45 PM
Wow! they look even better in paint!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 06, 2021, 04:32:39 PM
Thanks guys!

A little lathe time this morning, got the blanks for the bearings turned to size. I am going to wait till the crankshaft is done to bore the insides, just in case I miss the diameters by a thou or three when turning the crankshaft. And yes, the bearings will be split - I like to turn/bore them from solid then cut them with a fine bladed jewelers saw - the few thou lost to the kerf gives room for them to come together with lapping and wear, and it saves the effort of joining/splitting a larger block.

(https://i.postimg.cc/2jxHtYtW/IMG-9612.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 06, 2021, 11:36:19 PM
After all the milling work this spring/summer, its been fun to get back on the lathe for some major parts. I got a whole lot more done on the crankshaft today than I expected to - started out with a 3/4" 303 Stainless roundbar slightly longer than the finished shaft. At about 10" long, no way would I attempt to just hold it in the chuck for center drilling the ends, so I set up the steady rest to hold the outboard end and drilled both ends for centers.
(https://i.postimg.cc/jj9ZYQ0n/IMG-9613.jpg)
That let me set up the bar with a dead center and faceplate at the headstock and a live center in the tailstock, with the steady rest out near the outer end.
(https://i.postimg.cc/9M71mRC8/IMG-9614.jpg)
The lathe dog that comes with the Sherline does not have a large enough ID, but several projects back I had made a larger ring that could take a 3/4" bar, with a long screw to engage a bolt in the faceplate.
(https://i.postimg.cc/wMY27qB6/IMG-9615.jpg)
Working from the outboard end, which happens to be the HP cylinder end (the bosses on the crankshaft are not symmetric, the flywheel boss on the HP end is longer to also hold the lay shaft drive gear), I first turned the end down to .550 to take the HP crank web. The end cranks are single sided, the center one is double sided. The plan is to make the crank webs seperately and attach them with loctite plus cross taper pins. On the original they were press fit with keyways to keep them aligned.

(https://i.postimg.cc/T1j9bzyn/IMG-9616.jpg)
Then moved the steady rest one section back, and turned the outer bearing section.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Njj4yPQr/IMG-9617.jpg)
Then continued my way back one section at a time, with the first flywheel boss. The plan is to have the flywheels held with taper locks in their hubs to grip the crankshaft and keep them running true, plus a keyway to keep them from any chance of spinning - the originals had keys, and the flywheels were in two semicircle halves bolting down around the crankshaft.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZKcH5hzS/IMG-9618.jpg)
The sections between the larger bosses are where the bearings will support the crankshaft, they are all the same diameter. The center boss is slightly larger diameter than the flywheel bosses, so the center webs can be passed down to the center. Turning in these narrower areas required switching back and forth between left and right cutters.
(https://i.postimg.cc/xTYgQ175/IMG-9619.jpg)
This continued down the length, moving the steady rest one section back at a time, applying new grease and cleaning up the precious one as I went, till I got to the LP end.
(https://i.postimg.cc/fWY519Hk/IMG-9620.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/dVN9Gm0N/IMG-9621.jpg)
The crank web section at the LP end was not accessible for turning with the lathe dog and faceplate there, so for that one last cut I turned the crankshaft around and did that one at the outer end of the lathe. Still ran true - nice thing about turning between centers, the setup is repeatable.
So, after cleaning off the grease from the steady rest, here is the crankshaft so far, sitting where it will be on the engine beds (well, above where it will be, have not bored the bearings yet). I'm going to turn a short test bar that matches the diameter of the bearing sections of the shaft, to test with the bearings as they are bored (learned that one from some of you guys on your builds!)

(https://i.postimg.cc/0N60nMMk/IMG-9622.jpg)
As you can see, the larger diameter boss on the right, between the right two engine beds, is longer than the one at the other end - that is for the flywheel plus the lay shaft gear, the one on the left will just have the second flywheel (yup - two 7" diameter flywheels!) The boss in the center is where the center crank web will be - that center will be cut out after adding the webs. The very ends of the shaft, where they come through the end web plates, will be milled off flush with the web faces after the webs are attached.

So far so good!  Time to go celebrate the progress with the shop elves, got some new dark chocolate bars with almonds today... if they haven't eaten them already...
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on July 07, 2021, 01:08:55 AM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on July 07, 2021, 05:12:42 AM
Great start on the crankshaft, Chris!  :popcorn:
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 07, 2021, 05:52:35 PM
Thanks guys!
Got the bearings bored out to size, ready to split...
(https://i.postimg.cc/JzB0MvnQ/IMG-9623.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 07, 2021, 10:27:21 PM
This afternoon I was taking some time to figure out how and what order to assemble things in around the engine beds. I fitted the vertical supports between the IP engine bed and the center pump chamber, and bolted it down to see what kind of hand/finger room there will be. Not much!  One thing I will do before assembling is to make the catwalk brackets that go on the inside edges of the engine beds. In this picture, there are a bunch of small blue arrows showing their locations - the ones on the outer edges can go one later but the inner ones would be very tough to bolt in once the beds are installed - each one gets two or three 1-72 screws.

(https://i.postimg.cc/hjPbHBB2/IMG-9624.jpg)
Not much room down at the pump level either, and this is before the vertical supports for the outer two cylinders goes in, just the ones on the center cylinder in place at the moment.
(https://i.postimg.cc/TPcJ7PZy/IMG-9625.jpg)
Another set of things that needs to be made and installed first are the vertical rods that drive the pump plungers from the crosshead up above. Each plunger gets four rods, one at each corner.
(https://i.postimg.cc/bvPR9nFc/IMG-9626.jpg)
As you can see, not much room to get in there, and there is not enough room to remove/replace the plunger with the engine bed and the vertical supports in place - I know, just tried this center one! Here is a view of the plunger from the top - you'd think that it could be lifted right on up and out with the crankshaft out of the way, but it will not clear the bearing block protrusions.
(https://i.postimg.cc/bwkTngg9/IMG-9627.jpg)
That view shows why the bearing blocks had to be cut back at the corners of the bearings - those little quarter-round recesses are where the plunger rods pass by. Thats one thing I noticed on the Allis engine that is different than this Holly engine - on the Allis they put guide bearings where the rods go past the engine bed sides, not so on the Holly.

So, next steps: - split the crankshaft bearings
 - make/install the plunger rods - make/install the catwalk brackets - make/install the crankshaft webs
 - start on the flywheels and the bevel gears for the lay shaft

And another thing I learned - I need to make a cloth or paper tent over the pumps and the lowest catwalk - any dropped nuts or screws rattle down through that maze, and go into the most inaccessible places down at the bottom level. Dropped two of the crankshaft bearing cap nuts - found one sitting inside one of the holes through the base plate that I was just able to snag with a dental pick. The other one was eaten by the bed plates, probably went through one of those holes and slid under the base plate. My shop elves wont fit down there to retrieve it, so will have to make another one. I think there are a couple of 2-56 screws hiding down there too - at least those I have a lot of!

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on July 07, 2021, 11:25:04 PM
Yeah, that definitely looks pretty tight in there Chris!  Good luck getting it all together!  But I'm certain you will find a way!  ;D

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 08, 2021, 05:56:48 PM
Decided to get a start on the plunger rods. Got the set of them (12 rods) cut to length and the ends turned down to form the shoulders and thread the ends. Good opportunity for more learning on the single-point threading, so I am using that setup rather than using a die. The length of the rod past the shoulder means that there is a lot of bending force from the cutter, flexing the end of the rod back and especially up as it is turned into the cutter. I did some reading up on follower rests, which are tricky to implement on the Sherline since there is no compound slide so if the rest is attached to the cross slide, it moves in with the cut. A compound slide attachment exists, and I have one, but it is designed to work on the back of the part as it rises, and the opening in it is not large enough for my insert holder. Thought about making an adapter end to take the insert holder, and may still do that for future use, but for now I tried a very simple approach. Since the tip of the rod mainly wants to rise up during the cut, I cut an overhang on a bit of bar stock and clamped that to the cross slide to hold the rod down. Seems to work perfectly for these cuts.
(https://i.postimg.cc/QC0NxCfW/IMG-9629.jpg)
Takes a little extra cleaning to get the oily chips out, but its doing the job for now, and will let me tackle a more adjustable design later on. Sherline makes a follower, but it also clamps to the cross slide so the back part of the rest would need constant adjustment to. And this solution for now is free and here in the shop. Sold!

For reference, here is a picture of the first two rods screwed into the top of the pump plunger, showing how they come up around the sides of the crankshaft. There will be four per cylinder, at each corner of the opening around the crank. The crank webs are set in from the bearings to clear the rods.
(https://i.postimg.cc/NG4jxCQf/IMG-9632.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on July 08, 2021, 07:26:43 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: EricB on July 08, 2021, 07:57:43 PM
Sherline's follower rest mounts to the lathe saddle, not the cross slide. It stays in position relative the the spindle center.

Nice work so far!

Eric
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 08, 2021, 08:00:56 PM
Sherline's follower rest mounts to the lathe saddle, not the cross slide. It stays in position relative the the spindle center.

Nice work so far!

Eric
But, on the product page it shows that it connects to the T slot. How's it stay stationary?  Gotta go look again...
EDIT:
Okay, looked at the instructions this time, and you are right!  I thought it was secured with the t-slot, but they have that set up to slide. Clever.

Hmmmm, the shop elves owe me from that poker game last night, maybe I'll use THIER credit card and order one!  Thanks!
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: EricB on July 08, 2021, 08:10:37 PM
The rest mounts to the front edge of the saddle and sits on the ways of the lathe bed. The part in the "T" slot provides extra downard pressure on the rest to keep it against the ways, but still allows the cross slide to move.

It works for small diameter stock but higher cutting forces can cause the brass fingers on the rest to move.

Eric
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 08, 2021, 08:20:01 PM
The rest mounts to the front edge of the saddle and sits on the ways of the lathe bed. The part in the "T" slot provides extra downard pressure on the rest to keep it against the ways, but still allows the cross slide to move.

It works for small diameter stock but higher cutting forces can cause the brass fingers on the rest to move.

Eric
For threading small rod like this it should be more than strong enough - thanks for the tip!!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 09, 2021, 04:44:51 PM
The pump rods are all threaded at both ends, and I made up another batch of a few dozen of the nuts - needed some for the rods, know that more will be needed later for other parts...
(https://i.postimg.cc/XJkp1hHj/IMG-9634.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on July 09, 2021, 08:32:20 PM
Looks like you had some hexagon therapy Chris !  :Lol:  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 09, 2021, 08:59:52 PM
Looks like you had some hexagon therapy Chris !  :Lol: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:


Nice easy parts, a nice change!  This afternoon I started splitting the bearings with a jewelers saw, three of four cut. After marking both sides to ensure the halves stay together - learned that one the hard way on an engine!  The sawblade is only 14 thou thick so very little kerf loss. With the first three set in place its looking like the horizontal alignment is spot on, might need just a thin shim under one bed, won't know for sure till everything is bolted down quite pleased so far!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 10, 2021, 09:52:41 PM
As mentioned, the crankshaft bearings were split with a jewelers saw with a fine blade, about 12 thou thick
(https://i.postimg.cc/mZm2bSyh/IMG-9635.jpg)
Got them test fit in the engine beds, checking with a straightedge showed that the middle bed needed to come up just a bit to line them all up (horzontally they lined up great). So, put in a couple thin (5 thou) bits of shim stock under the corners of the middle engine bed and it all went right into line.  :cartwheel:
(https://i.postimg.cc/R0xvPp4p/IMG-9636.jpg)
Here they are with the caps set in place. The bearings are still a little bit of a snug sliding fit on the shaft, so after the beds are all bolted down permanently and the crank webs are on, I'll run it in with some fine lapping compound.
(https://i.postimg.cc/9fPCsPfm/IMG-9637.jpg)
The obligatory family shot...
(https://i.postimg.cc/76xw4CCg/IMG-9638.jpg)
Before bolting down the end engine beds, I wanted to make the catwalk brackets that sit between the beds, easier to get the screws in when they are separate. Started with some rectangular bar, and milled recesses on both sides to form the flanges
(https://i.postimg.cc/kXDMDtTs/IMG-9639.jpg)
Here the bar is with both sides recessed, ready to cut them apart into the individual brackets
(https://i.postimg.cc/9MJVQWTs/IMG-9640.jpg)
The ends were then milled off to smooth out the saw marks and make them all the same length, and the mounting holes were drilled in the short face, holes drilled/tapped in the long face for screwing down the floor plates to.
(https://i.postimg.cc/yY51RY5H/IMG-9641.jpg)
The bottom edges were milled at an angle to form the rest of the bracket, used a piece of wood notched at the angle to hold them all the same (making 14 of them)
(https://i.postimg.cc/VkCYWPQb/IMG-9642.jpg)
A spritz of paint and screwed them in place on the engine beds - the floor plates will be added later on. There are still quite a few longer brackets to make that will go around the outside of the engine beds for the main catwalk at that level (there will be two more catwalk levels up above). Those longer brackets get cutouts in the center, and have three mounting holes rather than two.
(https://i.postimg.cc/d33F7zj3/IMG-9645.jpg)
Next steps? Getting the other two engine beds and vertical pump supports bolted in, making the crank webs, then will start in on the flywheels - two of them, 7.5" diameter by 1/2" thick at the rims, with taper lock centers. I have a couple of large cast bronze flywheels from Martin that I am going to use. Having them flywheels will make it a lot easier to spin things to lap in the bearings. Also, I need to make the bevel gears for the lay shaft, one goes on next to the HP end flywheel, along with the gear case. Then on to the rest of the catwalk... Long way to go just to finish up this level of the engine! :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RReid on July 10, 2021, 11:04:16 PM
It gets awfully hard to think of new superlatives to use when commenting on your work. Just awesome.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on July 10, 2021, 11:18:44 PM
Lot of nice little brackets there, Chris!  Love how you did the production line of them then cut them apart.  :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn:
And they use two screws per bracket to attach them?

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 10, 2021, 11:31:47 PM
Lot of nice little brackets there, Chris!  Love how you did the production line of them then cut them apart.  :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn:
And they use two screws per bracket to attach them?

Kim
Thanks guys! Much easier to mill the shapes in as one long bar before cutting apart, lot less fiddling about with clamping each one. Without stress relieving, the bar would warp in both directions as the first side is cut.

Kim, these brackets have two screws each - the later ones have a much longer and taller profile, so there is a third screw at the bottom end on those. This picture shows the brackets at the upper two levels - for all the levels and things they attach to, the plans show a couple dozen variations on the theme:

(https://i.postimg.cc/k4484gzb/DSC-7463.jpg)

I was just playing around in Fusion and Gearotic Motion (gear calc app) to work out the sizes for the lay shaft bevel gears to see how many teeth and angles to use given the size gear cutters I have. Works out that at Module 0.6, the large gears are 54 tooth, small are 12, with a 77 degree bevel angle combination. While looking at the gear housing at the lower end, I also realized that it needs to be made and installed with the crankshaft as well as the gear, since the housing is one piece all the way around the gear/shaft.  The housing includes the bearing mount for the take-off shaft that runs up to the lay shaft....
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on July 10, 2021, 11:58:16 PM
Looks great Chris! glad to hear the bearings lined up so close. Lot of work just in the catwalk supports.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on July 11, 2021, 12:07:07 AM
That's pretty amazing, Chris.  I see a lot of brackets in your future!  :Lol:
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 11, 2021, 12:09:15 AM
That's pretty amazing, Chris.  I see a lot of brackets in your future!  :Lol:
Kim
Yeah.  :-\   At least they are not crawler tracks this time! 
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 11, 2021, 02:25:04 PM
This morning saw the two outside engine beds and vertical column sets installed for good (I hope) - lots of screws in hard to reach spots, but its looking like a proper forest in there now!
(https://i.postimg.cc/Qd8kGG19/IMG-9646.jpg)
The four pump rods on each plunger can be screwed in from the top, so I didn't have to get fingers in there too, I did put in a little oil on each plunger's o-ring while it was accessible though.The crankshaft holes are all lining up well - put a straightedge down the length and could not see any light through, so it should all be close enough to lap in the bearings.Next I think I'll start on the crank webs, have been coming up with the schemes to hold and turn the flywheels and their hubs too....
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 11, 2021, 08:06:06 PM
So this morning I put together the crankshaft web 'kit' - rough cut lengths of the flat and round bar needed for the three webs/cranks.

(https://i.postimg.cc/HkhwcT6q/IMG-9649.jpg)
For the center crank, two flat bar pieces were lined up and screwed together to keep them in alignment for the boring operations. The two screw holes will get plugged later - well worth it to avoid any movement. The crank pin hole was bored at one end, and started boring out the crank shaft hole at the other - the two holes are 1.031" apart to match the scaled down 33" offset/66" throw on the pistons.
(https://i.postimg.cc/k4xKpK7C/IMG-9650.jpg)
Since the large hole needs to match the diameter of the existing crankshaft, and measuring the ID of a hole can be tricky, I took a page from others here (sorry, I forget who I learned this one from - you know who you are, think I've seen it on a couple threads) and turned a step gauge block. The largest step measures the same as the center boss on the crankshaft, and the next three steps are one thou smaller each. That way I could get it close and fine tune the last couple passes till the gauge would just slide in, without having to remove the block from the vise since the crankshaft is too long to trial fit it in place. Here it is almost there, one more step to go:

(https://i.postimg.cc/2yrhRy5Z/IMG-9651.jpg)
Another pass with the boring head, set almost one more tick in, and it just slides into place:
(https://i.postimg.cc/B6W2pM9N/IMG-9652.jpg)
Moment of truth - took it out of the mill and test fit on the crankshaft, it just slides onto the center boss - snug enough that it stays in place but just loose enough not to bind up and jam. Should be perfect for assembling with loctite and taper pins.
(https://i.postimg.cc/6Q4dCFSy/IMG-9654.jpg)
And that seems like a perfect place to walk away for the day and bask in the accomplishment, do any more and I risk swarfing it up from getting a little tired. Tomorrow I can turn the crank pin, which will be full diameter in the center and step down to be a snug fit in the holes in the webs. It will also be loctited/taper-pinned into place. The original had a keyway on the main shaft, and the crank pin had a square end to go into the web. The taper pins and loctite should do the same job for the model.

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on July 11, 2021, 11:05:20 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on July 12, 2021, 05:46:35 AM
  :ThumbsUp: Great start on the crank web, Chris.  I'm a big believer in those sliding go/no-go gauges.   They work a treat!   :popcorn: :popcorn:

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 12, 2021, 03:48:27 PM
Got the crankpin turned to fit the webs,

(https://i.postimg.cc/SN8B70D3/IMG-9655.jpg)
Then filled the screw holes with some JB Kwikweld - left the epoxy standing proud, after it had set up trimmed it flush with a sharp knife. Also sanded the corners. Here is a test fit on the model
(https://i.postimg.cc/2S7gMQpx/IMG-9657.jpg)
All looking good, it clears the engine beds when turning, so I got the webs/pin all loctited up, careful to wipe off any excess so it doesn't want to stick to the bearings later.

(https://i.postimg.cc/Hkgf6SNx/IMG-9658.jpg)
I'll let that set up overnight, tomorrow can drill/ream for the taper pins. I'll get started on the end crank webs, but I can't install those till the flywheels and the gear/gearbox are made. Given the tight quarters for the gearbox mounting, I am thinking that I need to change the box to a top/bottom two-piece assembly since there will be no room to get in there to put in the mounting screws with the flywheel in place next to it. I dont have a scale-sized apprentice to hang on a rope by his ankles like they probably did in real life!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 13, 2021, 12:27:14 AM
Side project, maybe....

One thing that I've been wanting for a long time is a much smaller ratchet handle. I've got a set of Wiha tool bits with sockets/torx/hex/etc bits, all with a 4mm hex base. The handles for it are very good, but there are times that I need to get in between other parts and a ratchet handle would be the way to go. I found a smallish ratchet meant for headlight adjusting on Fords, that I was able to adapt to take the 4mm hex shanks. Works quite well, but is still a bit large. Decided to see what I could draw up in Fusion, and with a little fiddling came up with this as a start:
(https://i.postimg.cc/fRsrcB2v/ratchet.jpg)

Like other small ratchets, a reversing lever would add size, so it would be used to drive with the bit on one side, remove with the bit on the other. The center cylinder with the hex opening would be made by adapting the 4mm driver from the Wiha set (spares can be bought seperately). For scale, the grid behind it is a 1" major grid size with 10 smaller grids per inch, so the end section is .31" by .4", cover held with a 2-56 screw.

In looking back at it, one thing I'm going to change is increase the number of teeth on the ratchet wheel, as drawn its only 8, which means a 45 degree 'click' minimum, and smaller angle would be better. That might make the width a little smaller too... I've got pieces of clock spring sheets that could be used on the pawl.

Spot anything else I am missing? Looks makeable - some bits of 303 stainless would work well.

Might actually make this - if it works I'll post the drawings for everyone.
Chris :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RReid on July 13, 2021, 01:05:27 AM
That looks like a pretty slick idea, and should be a very useful tool if you go forward with it. I hope you do build it and post drawings, I'd be inclined to build one.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dave Otto on July 13, 2021, 01:21:08 AM
Hi Chris

I have a set like this at work and also one at home. It is similar to your proposed design except it uses a spline on each tool to engage the pawl.
https://www.newmantools.com/wfmc.htm


Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on July 13, 2021, 01:40:09 AM
Nice tooling ideas! If you knew anyone with a wire EDM machine you could make the pawl and a curved spring, for even more compact design, in one piece out of a piece of pre-hardened gauge plate. (if it's worth doing, it's worth OVER doing!)  :Lol:  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 13, 2021, 02:14:05 AM
Hi Chris

I have a set like this at work and also one at home. It is similar to your proposed design except it uses a spline on each tool to engage the pawl.
https://www.newmantools.com/wfmc.htm (https://www.newmantools.com/wfmc.htm)


Dave
Nice setup- how big is the ratchet head?
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 13, 2021, 02:23:05 AM
Been searching around, found some other ratchet designs that would be a lot finer resolution and still small... More tomorrow.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 13, 2021, 04:31:12 PM
More playing around with the ratchet design - fun to do. I've changed the gear and ratchet pawl setup, got it to be reversing with 16 teeth in the same size, body is a little shallower but the reverse lever adds back some height. The end screw on the lever can drop into detents in the cover to hold it in place - slack in the screw holes will give it room to do so. I chose the gear tooth shape so I can cut them with the end corner of an end mill, no special cutter needed. The hex socket I can cut from the extension bar made for the Wiha tools, the hex opening is 4mm, their bits are nice and small, makes the unit much smaller than a standard 1/4" drive ratchet.
(https://i.postimg.cc/XYghLqvh/ratchet2.jpg)

Should be an easy build - will likely make up the prototype between crankshaft parts.
Speaking of crankshaft parts, I've gotten a start on profiling the end crank webs, pics on that later...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dave Otto on July 13, 2021, 06:07:51 PM
Hi Chris

I have a set like this at work and also one at home. It is similar to your proposed design except it uses a spline on each tool to engage the pawl.
https://www.newmantools.com/wfmc.htm (https://www.newmantools.com/wfmc.htm)


Dave
Nice setup- how big is the ratchet head?


It is .428" wide and .455" tall, the square part of the head is about 1.2" long.

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 13, 2021, 06:21:25 PM
Hi Chris

I have a set like this at work and also one at home. It is similar to your proposed design except it uses a spline on each tool to engage the pawl.
https://www.newmantools.com/wfmc.htm (https://www.newmantools.com/wfmc.htm)


Dave
Nice setup- how big is the ratchet head?


It is .428" wide and .455" tall, the square part of the head is about 1.2" long.

Dave
Great, thanks!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dave Otto on July 13, 2021, 06:31:03 PM
It does have a pretty stiff spring, so might not work real well is a situation where the fastener does not have much resistance and you can't get a finger on it to add some.

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 13, 2021, 07:34:30 PM
It does have a pretty stiff spring, so might not work real well is a situation where the fastener does not have much resistance and you can't get a finger on it to add some.

Dave
Good to know. Since I already have the big set of Wiha bits, I think I'll just go ahead and try making my own small one. The design I've got is about the same width, just a bit shallower, than that one. I've got several thicknesses of clock spring material (pendulum suspension spring too, which is thinner), will try different thicknesses and see what works best. I had not thought of being able to spin the bit by hand for starting screws, good idea!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 13, 2021, 11:11:22 PM
Some really good progress on the end crank webs. To bore the large hole at the crank end of each, I drilled/bored them on the lathe rather than with the boring head on the mill - it went a lot faster this way without having to stop between passes to increase the throw on the boring head. It just took a little extra measurement to get the offset correct for the small hole on the mill, but overall a lot faster.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Bv9tZpDW/IMG-9659.jpg)
The placement of the small hole for the crank pin is important, so that was done on the mill. The bars were left a little long before boring the holes, so the first hole just had to be close-ish.

(https://i.postimg.cc/VNqvJtBJ/IMG-9661.jpg)
Both webs (HP and LP cylinders) bored and the outlines sketched on as a double-check when setting up.

(https://i.postimg.cc/NFMjCzhX/IMG-9662.jpg)
The sides were taken down first - used a pair of drill shanks in the holes and on top of the vise to set the angle consistantly.
(https://i.postimg.cc/rynmRMWN/IMG-9663.jpg)
Then set up the rotary table and tooling plate on the mill - screwed a small piece of stock turned to the size of the bore in the center hole of the tooling plate to position the webs. Parts were clamped down with some card stock underneath so the end mill could be set just above the tooling plate.
(https://i.postimg.cc/4NY3zqQk/IMG-9665.jpg)
After doing both large ends, the alignment pin was replaced with a smaller one sized for the crank pin holes, and the webs clamped on again one at a time.
(https://i.postimg.cc/8c0P2mD0/IMG-9666.jpg)
and rounded those ends over as well...
(https://i.postimg.cc/PxdxYq22/IMG-9667.jpg)
Next to last shaping step was back on the lathe, turning the crank pin ends down to thickness, leaving a boss at the shaft end.
(https://i.postimg.cc/wvFBVdrH/IMG-9668.jpg)
One turned down so far, one to go. Then the last shaping is to thin the boss down to final thickness, the parts were cut from 1/2" thick bar, the part is a little thinner than that.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RReid on July 14, 2021, 12:42:34 AM
A great sequence and a very "cranky" looking result!  :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on July 14, 2021, 01:00:08 AM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 14, 2021, 01:05:46 AM
Thanks guys!  Just finished taking the second web down. Test fitting again showed that the steel bar did move just a hair, the previously round shaft holes went just a little bit oblong along the length of the web, as the rolling stresses from when they made the bar came into play as the sides were machined away. Not much, just enough to bind what was a close sliding fit as they slid on the shaft, needed a little filing to correct so all is well again. Would have been better to finish the hopes last, but would have been harder to hold on the mill. Next time I will hopefully remember that!


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 14, 2021, 09:39:33 PM
Last update yesterday I was working on the end crank webs. Since then finished up both of them, here they are set in place on the crankshaft (cant affix them yet, till flywheels and gear go on)

(https://i.postimg.cc/wBDnP7Pz/IMG-9670.jpg)
Then turned the crank pins - these were loctited into the ends of the webs, will be taper-pinned in place in a couple days.
(https://i.postimg.cc/7PKdpvB5/IMG-9672.jpg)
Then I decided to start on the bevel gears. Since the model needs two matched sets, one on the crankshaft and another at the lay shaft, both pairs will be made at once. They are 12 and 54 tooth bevel gears, with a 77.5 degree cone angle, cut with a Module 0.6 cutter set. After going through the spreadsheets created a couple years ago with help from several others on this forum to get the math done, I set up to cut the small pinion gears first - if anything went wrong, its not much work or material wasted! So, started with the compound rest on the lath to make the blank for the first one:
(https://i.postimg.cc/prcS889f/IMG-9677.jpg)
and set up the rotary table at the same angle on the mill to cut the teeth. I'll be using the parallel-depth process, which normally uses three passes to shape the teeth. Since these gears are such a small size I am skipping the initial pass and going straight to the second and third passes - with larger teeth the first pass takes out the bulk of the material and the other two shape in the teeth to final angles, but with such small teeth there is very little taken on the later passes that I can skip the first step - read about that in one of the books, and it worked.
(https://i.postimg.cc/X7hhYf63/IMG-9679.jpg)
And went around the blank cutting the 12 teeth.
(https://i.postimg.cc/pTZ4W3R1/IMG-9680.jpg)
At this point I could tell something was very wrong - the tops of the teeth were little knives, very little width to them. Went back and checked the spreadsheet, checked the dimensions, depth of cut, all that. Several times. Then realized the problem - all the handwheels, including the rotary table, on the Sherline have 5 major ticks and 10 minor ticks per major one - I am very accustomed to that. BUT - the compound slide with its very small scale has 5 major ticks and just 5 minor ticks per major one. That means I wasn't at the 12.5 degree angle I wanted, but at 14.5 degrees instead.   :zap:   So, the taper was too steep, which meant when I set the depth of cut out near the tip, the cut was way too deep at the base.  As the Mythbusters would say - THERES your problem! 

Fortunately it was not much lost, so I cut the end off the blank and tried again with the proper angle on the lathe (the angle on the mill was fine, that was set with a fine-scale protractor) and made a new start. That one came out fine.  Then back to the lathe to cut the hub and part off:
(https://i.postimg.cc/TYhFxkSC/IMG-9681.jpg)
Swarf, clean, repeat... Made up the second one for the other end of the drive shaft:
(https://i.postimg.cc/pTx3tPbF/IMG-9682.jpg)
After parting off, the hubs were chucked in the lathe and the shaft holes drilled through.
Then, on to the big ring gears. Same procedure, new angle and new cutter from the set.
(https://i.postimg.cc/FzHq7GKF/IMG-9683.jpg)
The rotary table is still clamped at the same angle as used on the small gears - but, rather than cutting along the long axis, the cuts were made along the short axis, giving a complementary angle to the gears.
(https://i.postimg.cc/g2Z7XxGh/IMG-9684.jpg)
Lots more teeth on these...
(https://i.postimg.cc/q7H58p75/IMG-9686.jpg)
Then moved the chuck back to the lathe to bore out the hole for the crankshaft and the counterbore to take the teeth to face dimension.
(https://i.postimg.cc/9MWgn1ZP/IMG-9687.jpg)
Parted off and test fit on the crankshaft:
(https://i.postimg.cc/SsD1F8fB/IMG-9688.jpg)
The ring gear will be attached to the flywheel, the pinion gear and its shaft get held by a bearing that will be part of the gear case attached to the engine bed.  Here is where the gear goes when on the rest of the engine:
(https://i.postimg.cc/KjjqZz9R/IMG-9689.jpg)
The drive shaft will come of at an angle to the next level up on the engine frames where the lay shaft will be.
So, three gears down, one to go. The second ring gear has the same number of teeth and outer dimensions, but it will have a smaller hole in its hub to match the lay shaft. Will probably make that gear tomorrow.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dave Otto on July 14, 2021, 10:07:28 PM
Nice work on the gears Chris, I will have to try that some day.

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on July 14, 2021, 10:21:29 PM
Pretty slick gear cutting, Chris!  :popcorn:
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 14, 2021, 10:25:16 PM
Thanks guys! Lots of practice has made the gearcutting process a lot faster, the first ones I did years ago took days.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: gary.a.ayres on July 14, 2021, 10:28:17 PM
Haven't been on the forum much for the last few weeks as busy with my own build and a bunch of other stuff, but now scanning back in your thread I can see amazing progress and a fantastic level of detail.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on July 15, 2021, 12:15:25 AM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Brian Rupnow on July 15, 2021, 01:52:48 AM
Chris--I'm not saying much, but I'm setting back in the bush and watching every day. Your work is fabulous!!!---Brian
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 15, 2021, 02:33:23 AM
Chris--I'm not saying much, but I'm setting back in the bush and watching every day. Your work is fabulous!!!---Brian
Thought I spotted you back there sharing peanuts with the squirrels!  Watch out for the skunk thats started wandering through...
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 15, 2021, 02:34:00 AM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
:drinking-41:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 15, 2021, 04:21:13 PM
This morning I cut the second large bevel gear, completing the set. With matching gears top and bottom, the lay shaft will rotate at the same speed and in sync with the crankshaft. A nice bit of jewelry that will be unseen under the gear case covers!

(https://i.postimg.cc/PrSpcnFV/IMG-9690.jpg)
Then I got started on putting in the taper pins on the crank pins. The crank pins had been loctited in place yesterday, and the taper pins will give it that extra bit of strength in the joint. The original used tapered keys for the same function. I have bags of 4/0 taper pins in 1/2" and 1" lengths, plus a 4/0 taper reamer. To reduce the amount of reaming needed on the 1" deep holes, I measured every 1/4" on a pin, and worked out a series of drill steps to match, so that all I need to ream off are the corners of the steps on the inside of the holes. On brass, I'd just drill the small hole but on steel this saves a lot of time.
(https://i.postimg.cc/JztDCYfr/IMG-9691.jpg)
with the reamer run through till the steps are gone, and the oil washed out, the first pin is ready to install.
(https://i.postimg.cc/9f7DrRXs/IMG-9692.jpg)
Here it is after tapping into place, I had put in a drop of loctite just for good measure, though the fit is so tight it probably all squeezed out again.
(https://i.postimg.cc/fRF3zjsx/IMG-9696.jpg)
and after sawing off the ends and filing off
(https://i.postimg.cc/qRHznJzq/IMG-9697.jpg)
Thats not going anywhere!  So far I have both end crank pins pinned, next up will do the four joints on the center crank - two on the crankshaft ends of the webs and two on the crank pin ends. The joints for the end webs have to wait till the flywheels/gear are installed - positioning the assembly for drilling those will take some supports off the end of the mill table!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on July 16, 2021, 12:17:25 AM
There is no [modern] engineering joint process that exceeds the accuracy of Tapered Pins  :hammerbash: 

Derek   :cheers:

[mechanical computers used in early Naval Ordinance - Gun Plotting quipment had 100's of minature pinned geared joints [with zero backlash] & all in a box the size of a coffin]
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 16, 2021, 02:27:40 AM
There is no [modern] engineering joint process that exceeds the accuracy of Tapered Pins  :hammerbash: 

Derek   :cheers:

[mechanical computers used in early Naval Ordinance - Gun Plotting quipment had 100's of minature pinned geared joints [with zero backlash] & all in a box the size of a coffin]


They must have some tight control on grinding them, they are amazingly consistent.
I have a couple of WW-II aircraft sextants from bombers, the gears in them are truly amazing, so much packed in a tiny space, as you say without backlash. A long way from the early wood and metal framed sextants in the collection, though they did the job too.


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 16, 2021, 02:30:02 AM
Oh, and this afternoon I got the joints on the center crank pinned, and started figuring out how to hold the flywheel castings to mill the hubs. Big darn wheels!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on July 16, 2021, 08:56:03 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

I'm partial to using a plywood faceplate for big flywheels or gears , held in the lathe's 4 jaw chuck. Basically two discs of plywood glued up, the back one small enough to mount in the 4 jaw and the other big enough to fit the item to be screwed to it. If you have the lathe swing, it's cheap and cheerful but it works - IF you don't take massive cuts.  :cheers:

(also spreads the lovely cast iron dust extra far, so a big bonus for black finger club members)  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 16, 2021, 09:57:50 PM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

I'm partial to using a plywood faceplate for big flywheels or gears , held in the lathe's 4 jaw chuck. Basically two discs of plywood glued up, the back one small enough to mount in the 4 jaw and the other big enough to fit the item to be screwed to it. If you have the lathe swing, it's cheap and cheerful but it works - IF you don't take massive cuts.  :cheers:

(also spreads the lovely cast iron dust extra far, so a big bonus for black finger club members)  :Lol:
I've used the plywood discs for some big flywheels, usually bolt them to the faceplate. The headstock thread on the Sherline is the same as some woodworking lathes, and the faceplates made for those can be easily adapted to the Sherline, just needed to trim the thickness around the threaded section. Nice thick steel faceplates a lot cheaper than the thin aluminum ones that come with the lathe.
See next post for how I am holding things!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on July 16, 2021, 10:16:54 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 16, 2021, 10:25:10 PM
So, in thinking, plotting, planning, mind-changing, and all round procrastinating on the flywheels, I finally settled on how things would be done and how it would be held. Many ways to do it, this one seems to be working out so far. The desire was to use a taper lock for the hubs, but the hubs are fairly small diameter and there is not much width around them available, so it wound up being a slightly modified version of the usual lock design. Putting the taper into the hubs directly is not practical on my machines, since the lathe won't swing this large a piece (raw casting is 8" diameter, finished flywheel is 7.5" diameter) so that I can use the normal compound rest. What I wound up doing is not ideal, but works fine for a low-rpm engine like this one. I replaced the crankshaft on the lathe between centers and turned a shallow taper into the flywheel bosses, narrow end out to the outsides so the locks could be slipped on from the ends.
(https://i.postimg.cc/L4gDw0x2/IMG-9705.jpg)
Then, with the compound rest still locked into its angle (3 degrees, any steeper and it would not take advantage of the full width) I also turned a mandrel that will stay locked into the four-jaw for the duration of these steps.
(https://i.postimg.cc/bNXghH5b/IMG-9706.jpg)
Both those operations were on the outside of the parts, the compound rest works with the cutter inverted and on the back of the cross slide. For the next steps, cutting the internal tapers on the locks, I switched to a boring tool held in a little adapter I made several years ago that holds the tool at the right hieght for cutting internally on the normal front side. The holes were first bored straight through to the size matching the small end of the taper. Then, cut on the taper angle to widen the outer end far enough to match the lengths of the tapers made on the crankshaft and the mandrel. The mandrel was used to check the size of the hole.

(https://i.postimg.cc/qRzwkm0c/IMG-9708.jpg)
The turned the outside of the locks (making two of these, one for each flywheel) down to the size that I am going to bore in the flywheels. This is a straight parallel cut.
(https://i.postimg.cc/15pH5Vxd/IMG-9709.jpg)
After parting off, here is the taper lock sitting on the mandrel - perfect fit, angles match.
(https://i.postimg.cc/P5TMLfT5/IMG-9710.jpg)
Now on to the first flywheel. The castings (from Martin Models) are bronze, and they are quite even, just a little of the usual offset between the sides, and the surfaces are pretty good for castings. I found a spot where it would sit level on the mill table, with blocks under each end to let me bore through without hitting the table. After clamping down with four step clamps, the end of the hub on that side was milled off flat - it had an '8' cast into it from the foundry.

(https://i.postimg.cc/yNfnCqqY/IMG-9698.jpg)
 I used the co-ax indicator to center the hub under the mill head, and locked down the mill table.

(https://i.postimg.cc/cH2m6Q4p/IMG-9699.jpg)
I checked both the edge of the hub and the edge of the rim, they matched within the size of the casting bumps. Next step was to drill a starter hole and begin boring out the center...
(https://i.postimg.cc/3NGZGdkd/IMG-9704.jpg)
A 'boring' while later, the hole was sized to be a snug fit on the taper lock.

(https://i.postimg.cc/GmKxv0mJ/IMG-9711.jpg)
Then turned the headstock on the lathe 90 degrees and chucked up the flywheel - checked the tightness on the hub several times, and hand-spun the wheel to make sure it was all solid. All good, and running pretty true, so I started some light cuts to take off the uneven-ness.
(https://i.postimg.cc/q7ZcZ8nN/IMG-9714.jpg)
Both sides and the hub look to be pretty close, so that is good. Really glad I went for the bronze casting - no hard spots on the surface to deal with and no black powder like with cast iron!  The sprue location took a few extra passes.
(https://i.postimg.cc/QMMkb6BL/IMG-9715.jpg)
Once the high spots were off I could up the rpm a little more as it got into full cuts. Going to take a while to get it down to size - need to take the OD from 8" to 7.5", and the rim width from 7/8" down closer to 1/2". This casting was the closest I could find to the size needed for this engine.
(https://i.postimg.cc/rm0G6KCQ/IMG-9716.jpg)
As you can see in that picture, the shop elves loved how soft the bronze wool coming off the cuts was, and decided to take a bath in it...
(https://i.postimg.cc/mDvYTBmR/IMG-9717.jpg)
Cleanup will be easy, the shavings collect in a mat that can be picked up in one big carpet.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RReid on July 17, 2021, 12:32:47 AM
Being able to turn the headstock like that is a neat trick!  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 17, 2021, 02:01:50 AM
Being able to turn the headstock like that is a neat trick!  :ThumbsUp:
Yeah, both the lathe and the mill allow it, only way to handle a part this big. I'm having to do the turning in sessions, running the motor slow with a load means it gets hot.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on July 17, 2021, 02:52:15 AM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Where's that bug zapper circuit, to apply to each side of that bronze wool with Bob in the middle?  :LittleDevil:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 17, 2021, 02:58:41 AM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Where's that bug zapper circuit, to apply to each side of that bronze wool with Bob in the middle?  :LittleDevil:


Evil!


Funny, but evil!   :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: EricB on July 17, 2021, 04:42:41 AM
Being able to turn the headstock like that is a neat trick!  :ThumbsUp:
Yeah, both the lathe and the mill allow it, only way to handle a part this big. I'm having to do the turning in sessions, running the motor slow with a load means it gets hot.

Couldn't you move the belt to the slower pulley?

Great job so far!

Eric
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Admiral_dk on July 17, 2021, 12:35:43 PM
Quote
and all round procrastinating

I'm sorry but I can not get my head around that you have this sentence in your vocabulary Chris - given your build record here ....  :???:

Per
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 17, 2021, 01:28:04 PM
Being able to turn the headstock like that is a neat trick!  :ThumbsUp:
Yeah, both the lathe and the mill allow it, only way to handle a part this big. I'm having to do the turning in sessions, running the motor slow with a load means it gets hot.

Couldn't you move the belt to the slower pulley?

Great job so far!

Eric
Only two positions, its normally on the faster one, and I never think about changing it since the parts are normally all small. Doh!


Will try that this morning!!!!!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 17, 2021, 01:29:18 PM
Quote
and all round procrastinating

I'm sorry but I can not get my head around that you have this sentence in your vocabulary Chris - given your build record here ....  :???:

Per


 :Lol:   well, I delayed by making another part first! 
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 17, 2021, 04:13:07 PM
Eric - that worked great, got the motor into a better power band, keeps it cooler a lot longer, and gives more cutting power. Thanks for the reminder, I needed to move the trees to see that forest!    :cheers: :cheers:

Getting more done on the flywheel, about halfway to final diameter on the first one.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Dw4XNP30/IMG-9718.jpg)
And the shop elves were looking at the bronze wool some more. They have always been fans of Wile E. Coyote, and now they are off at the library looking up how to build a 'Wool' E. Mammoth!!!
(https://i.postimg.cc/yNqZC37P/IMG-9719.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 17, 2021, 06:58:39 PM
Uh oh, the Wool E. Mammoth is awake!
(https://i.postimg.cc/SRsK0k3q/IMG-9720.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Don1966 on July 17, 2021, 07:52:29 PM
Lots of good turning and fab Dog, but hey you disappoint me Dog with a store bought flywheel. I was eager to see you fab one up and learn from it. All on all always excellent work….. :Love:



 :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 17, 2021, 08:02:31 PM
Lots of good turning and fab Dog, but hey you disappoint me Dog with a store bought flywheel. I was eager to see you fab one up and learn from it. All on all always excellent work….. :Love:



 :drinking-41:
Don
I really thought about piecing one up, seen others do it on this forum, one this size would need a lot of bar stock and even more work than turning this one down. Maybe next time!  On my MEM Corliss I pieced them up, using pipe sections for the rims - never tried a full wagon-wheel-style buildup of one. Yet.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on July 17, 2021, 09:26:27 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Nice to see the mammoth doing a cameo appearance!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 18, 2021, 01:45:17 PM
And finishing up the first flywheel, with the rim down to diameter the near side was trimmed off, flattening the side shapes and taking it to width
(https://i.postimg.cc/wjBsRW84/IMG-9721.jpg)
then switched to a boring bar to reach the back side too
(https://i.postimg.cc/25bb2V54/IMG-9722.jpg)
That completes the lathe work for the first flywheel - it still needs sanding/filing on the spokes. The swarf monster has grown, the wheel casting has gone from 7.2 pounds to 4 pounds!  Next step, pick up the monster and transfer him to a bag for disposal... Not sure if the local Animal Control will take him.

(https://i.postimg.cc/HszyLqK7/IMG-9723.jpg)
So, here is the first flywheel set in place on the crankshaft:
(https://i.postimg.cc/wBCtPgtn/IMG-9724.jpg)
and a closeup of where the lay shaft drive gear will sit - I need to drill some holes for pins to hold it to the flywheel.
(https://i.postimg.cc/SxtY6WmS/IMG-9727.jpg)
Now? On to flywheel number two. But first, our RC submarine group is meeting out at the pond today. If the rain keeps up, we'll be sitting under the picnic pavillion yakking rather than letting the submarines get wet.   :headscratch:    :thinking:    :insane:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on July 18, 2021, 03:34:42 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Hope the weather is sub-stantially sunny today for RC sub activities.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 18, 2021, 06:01:05 PM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Hope the weather is sub-stantially sunny today for RC sub activities.
The sun sub-stituted for the rain, perfect weather! 4 inches of rain yesterday, more predicted today but it ended at about 8.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: john mills on July 19, 2021, 02:11:07 AM
The flywheel is looking  impressive now.   
The swarf looks like a part catcher to me reminds me of a job i had at one time  we made piston rings and seals we kept a pile of swarf like that  in the cnc lathe with live tooling i run.
to catch the parts as they were completed and parted off   the swarf was soft to catch the part then would be covered
to be protected from the next part.  bronze  white metal and mainly teflon based materials .which were easily
marked and scratched. the machine supplier thought we were strange we were the only customer that did that.
most people want the conveyer to take the swarf out of the machine.
      John
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 19, 2021, 03:06:04 AM
The flywheel is looking  impressive now.   
The swarf looks like a part catcher to me reminds me of a job i had at one time  we made piston rings and seals we kept a pile of swarf like that  in the cnc lathe with live tooling i run.
to catch the parts as they were completed and parted off   the swarf was soft to catch the part then would be covered
to be protected from the next part.  bronze  white metal and mainly teflon based materials .which were easily
marked and scratched. the machine supplier thought we were strange we were the only customer that did that.
most people want the conveyer to take the swarf out of the machine.
      John
Interesting! That pile of bronze is amazingly soft, sounds like a good use for it.


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 19, 2021, 03:49:06 PM
Got a start on the second flywheel - this one is going much faster, in part to changing the belt to a slower range for more power and less motor overheating, and part to zip-tying some foam and wood panels on the spokes, which dampens the vibrations down a lot. The part would ring like a bell when struck just sitting there clamped in the chuck, and when cutting it would hit the resonance frequency and force me to slow the cut a lot. With the damping effect the cutting is going a lot faster and is leaving a smoother finish. If this was a freelance design I'd stop here on the flywheel, but for scale accuracy it still needs to come down more in both directions, should have it finished up this afternoon or evening.

(https://i.postimg.cc/R0WPjXH6/IMG-9729.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 19, 2021, 03:53:43 PM
And save the date - looks like the Living History Days event up at the Maine logging museum is tentatively scheduled for October 2nd and 3rd. This is their biggest event for the year, lots of things going on both days. I am planning on going again this year, great fun volunteering on the Lombard Crew to run the steam and two gas powered machines. This fall they are starting work on a new road and display pavillion for the Lombards, better running road plus it gets them out of the parking areas.

This Saturday, July 24, is their Heavy Metal event, also a great time.

If you are near Maine, well worth the trip up!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on July 19, 2021, 05:45:59 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 19, 2021, 11:56:15 PM
Just finished up the lathe work on the second flywheel. The foam/wood additions really made a huge difference, got rid of the bell ringing vibrations and made for much faster and smoother cuts.
(https://i.postimg.cc/6pj3yChw/IMG-9730.jpg)
and here they are test fit on the crankshaft:
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZqWq30fN/IMG-9732.jpg)
All clears well, really changes the look. Still to do on the flywheels, sand/file the spokes, attach the lay shaft drive gear to the HP side flywheel, and attach them to the crankshaft. Thinking that I would make a small wedge key to keep the tapers pushed into place. Then I can get the bearing halves pinned to the beds and caps, and start lapping the bearings in. Given how a single flywheel made the lathe turn for 30 or 40 seconds after turning off the power, two flywheels in place should make spinning things to lap the bearings very easy - as well as giving an easy way to grab on to turn them. The crank ends need to be pinned into place too. Since I am going to make the drive gear cover in top/bottom halves, that can be done later, just before bolting the bearing caps down for good. Oh, and oil holes in the bearings. Lets see, must be something else.... Oh yeah! Need to paint the flywheels!  Lots to keep track of at this stage. Whoops - need to cut the main shaft where it goes through the center web too - that will make the center con rod work a WHOLE lot better!  Must be more too...   :stickpoke:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: MJM460 on July 20, 2021, 12:06:05 AM
Wow! That really changes the appearance.  Great looking flywheels.  Pity they have to be painted over a point of history.

MJM460

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 20, 2021, 12:17:35 AM
Wow! That really changes the appearance.  Great looking flywheels.  Pity they have to be painted over a point of history.

MJM460
I'll leave it to George to make the mini all-polished-brass version!  That would really be something to see!  I'm going for the look of the real one so the iron-paint is necessary, if a little dull. Too bad they didn't pick out the frames and cylinders in red and green, something like that. The Allis engine in Boston is much more colorful looking, even with just the white decks with red edges.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on July 20, 2021, 01:19:05 AM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Hi Chris, at final assembly are the spokes of the two flywheels aligned to each others' spokes or are they set at 30 degrees or some other angle apart? And are the spokes "timed" in line with the crank throws?  Just was thinking about it.  :thinking:  :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 20, 2021, 01:25:22 AM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Hi Chris, at final assembly are the spokes of the two flywheels aligned to each others' spokes or are they set at 30 degrees or some other angle apart? And are the spokes "timed" in line with the crank throws?  Just was thinking about it.  :thinking: :cheers:
They are aligned with each other. On the original, they were constructed in two halves and joined with splines on the rim and bolts at the hub. There were keyways in one side of the hub and in a line on the crankshaft, so they would always go on aligned. I was wondering the same thing when I first put the two flywheels on for the picture, and went back to look at the plans and photos! Dont know if this was an intentional thing for some resonance reason, or just an artifact of the casting/machining process. The keyways are aligned with the pin end of the center web, 120 degrees from the end cranks which are evenly spaced around the circle. The mass is evenly distributed around the flywheels, and the cranks do not have any counterweights.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RReid on July 20, 2021, 02:44:12 AM
Those look absolutely massive when compared to the person sized steps! Gives a great sense of scale to the whole thing.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on July 20, 2021, 03:00:12 AM
They are sure a sizable flywheel in scale

I remember as an apprentice 55+ years ago [Saturday overtime  :Love:-  maintenance day] checking on the drip feed lubrication to the outboard bush bearings to two [2] large, low speed Broom & Wade air compressor, with each having a single flywheel [about 8' diameter - quite a bit taller :Lol: than me] and each wheel had a series of 1/2" drillings around the outer edge near the major OD.......these were balance drillings performed during the assembly of the compressor [in London UK in the 1920's?]

What is the actual weight of each of your scale flywheels?........ :shrug: might be interesting to spin each wheel [individually]  in the machines bushes [dummy shaft] with a variable speed source [drill?] and bring the wheels up to the nominal 100?? RPM & see what happens

Derek

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 20, 2021, 03:24:30 AM
They are sure a sizable flywheel in scale

I remember as an apprentice 55+ years ago [Saturday overtime  :Love: -  maintenance day] checking on the drip feed lubrication to the outboard bush bearings to two [2] large, low speed Broom & Wade air compressor, with each having a single flywheel [about 8' diameter - quite a bit taller :Lol: than me] and each wheel had a series of 1/2" drillings around the outer edge near the major OD.......these were balance drillings performed during the assembly of the compressor [in London UK in the 1920's?]

What is the actual weight of each of your scale flywheels?........ :shrug: might be interesting to spin each wheel [individually]  in the machines bushes with a variable speed source [drill?] and bring the wheels up to the nominal 100?? RPM & see what happens

Derek


Hi Derek,


Each flywheel is 4 pounds, 7.5 inch diameter. Real engine has two 20 foot diameter by 16 inch wide flywheels! Quite a bit of weight total!  Fortunately they won't get anywhere near that fast, these pump engines ran at 12 to 20 rpm. The pistons are 1, 2, and 3 inch diameter, roughly (have to look up the actual sizes) with a little over a 2 inch stroke. Real LP cylinder is 96 inch. Given proper valving, should be able to run it nice and slow, like my MEM Corliss twin model. With no balance weights on the cranks, they were definitely not meant for high speed. I can't imagine the pressures it would have made at high speed!


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on July 20, 2021, 04:49:06 AM
oops :embarassed:............sorry I had the speed out x 10 fold  :Doh:.......  no real need for HS balance ............ :embarassed: Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 20, 2021, 04:52:39 AM
oops :embarassed: ............sorry I had the speed out x 10 fold  :Doh: .......  no real need for HS balance ............ :embarassed: Derek
As long as we can keep the shop elves off the throttle...   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 20, 2021, 09:08:17 PM
Lots of little bits done today. The lay shaft gear was drilled/tapped to screw it to the flywheel hub, and also got some pins made to keep the bearing halves from spinning. I drilled/tapped the caps for 2-56 brass screws, which were run in and clipped off. Matching holes in the top bearing halves were drilled(drilled at same time, then the bearings counterbored to the OD of the screws).
(https://i.postimg.cc/k459LvYz/IMG-9735.jpg)
Then did the same thing for the lower halves, but since the base wont fit under the mill (by a long ways!) I first drilled 2-56 tap holes in the lower bearing halves. Then clamped them in place as shown in the next picture - the top halves are in place, and the caps run in but offset by one bolt hole to expose the hole in the bearing. There is a ruler laid between the bearing halves so as the nuts were snugged up it held the bearing down and level. The flange on the end of the bearing kept it aligned side to side. Then used the tap drill held in a hand power drill to drill the matching hole into the base. That was then tapped, and the hole in the bearing counterdrilled to fit over the screw.
(https://i.postimg.cc/q7w4m5w2/IMG-9736.jpg)
Also drilled/tapped for screws through the flanges on the taper locks to hold them firmly in the flywheel hubs, and milled some slots in the crankshaft next to the flywheels to wedge the flywheels onto the tapers with. Have not made the wedges yet, that is next. Also also drilled/reamed the end cranks/crankshaft for thier taper pins, which will be assembled later after the rest of the bits are on the crankshaft. Whole lotta details to keep track of so I dont miss something!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on July 20, 2021, 09:21:15 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 21, 2021, 02:51:41 PM
The crankshaft bearings are ready for lapping. The shaft spins okay but is a little tight, some Timesavers powder and oil should free it up.
(https://i.postimg.cc/dtHBCzfg/IMG-9738.jpg)
Also got a start on the lay shaft drive gearbox. Started with two pieces of 1/2" thick bar stock, milled a recess down the sides and drilled to bolt them together. The recesses will get joined up on the rotary table to make the case round. There will be a boss on the top cover to take the bearing for the driven shaft that goes up to the lay shaft.
(https://i.postimg.cc/hPPsfS29/IMG-9737.jpg)
The open side of the box goes over the bevel gear and next to the flywheel.



Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: ddmckee54 on July 21, 2021, 03:20:01 PM
Any idea how many pounds of brass and bronze swarf you and the elves have generated so far on this project?
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dave Otto on July 21, 2021, 03:21:01 PM
Pretty impressive looking with the flywheels in place!

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 21, 2021, 03:59:20 PM
Any idea how many pounds of brass and bronze swarf you and the elves have generated so far on this project?
Flywheels shed 3.2 pounds of bronze each, engine beds and frames maybe One or two total, the cutouts on the beds are in the offcut bin for future use. The pumps maybe another pound. Still a fraction of the total model, its going to be a two person mover.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 21, 2021, 04:00:06 PM
Pretty impressive looking with the flywheels in place!

Dave
Thanks Dave, its nice to see moving parts finally!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Roger B on July 21, 2021, 05:49:59 PM
That's some fine work on those flywheels  :praise2:  :praise2:  :wine1:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on July 21, 2021, 06:17:10 PM
It does look great with the flywheels!  Starting to look like a real engine now :)   :popcorn:

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 21, 2021, 09:46:34 PM
Thanks guys!!

More work on the gear case this afternoon, set it up on the rotary table on the mill to shape the outside and drill the holes to match the guide made when I drilled the holes in the engine bed rail. Lots of nibbling away - the shop goat is stuffed!   :Lol:
(https://i.postimg.cc/bNygsQzC/IMG-9740.jpg)
I couldn't go all the way through all the way around due to the jaws of the chuck, so then flipped the part over and held from the inside of the case in the 3-jaw to trim the rest of the outside flanges.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Gm9jjdTv/IMG-9741.jpg)
The angled block at the top is where the shaft and bearing for the drive shaft will come out. I am going to leave the rest of the shaping of that till later - I know the angle of the shaft from the plans (23.7 degrees) but I want to wait till the lay shaft and the brackets up at that level are made to check and see how close it comes, and adjust the angle if needed.
(https://i.postimg.cc/hP2rxfvS/IMG-9742.jpg)
So in the meantime I'll do some sanding on the gear case and get it painted, and install the lower half on the engine bed. The top half can be removed with two screws for the rest of the work, even after the crankshaft is installed. On the original engine this case was made in one piece without the two bolt flanges, I think this is a reasonable change to avoid having to dismantle the upper half of the model to get at the case. This morning I did some filing and sanding on the flywheel spokes to smooth out the casting parting line.

Close to finishing up the crankshaft assembly - left to do:  install the gear case bottom half, lap the bearings, paint the flywheels, cut the shaft where it crosses the center crank webs, install the end cranks, install the crankshaft bearing caps. Long list but most are quick items. I have the bar stock for the catwalk brackets stress relieved (session in the oven a few days ago on a cool evening so it didn't heat up the house too much on hot days) and ready to go.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on July 22, 2021, 12:07:49 AM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 22, 2021, 12:14:59 AM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
:cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 22, 2021, 03:04:47 PM
The gear case was sanded and painted, and got it installed this morning. I REALLY need to make that smaller ratchet - getting the screws in on the lower part of the case was tough, not much finger room there. I should have made and installed this when I did the catwalk brackets!  Anyway, here is the lower case in place
(https://i.postimg.cc/5NdPVnND/IMG-9743.jpg)

and the upper case too. As noted yesterday I am going to wait to drill/install the bearing for the drive shaft in the box sticking up in the upper cover until the engine frames and lay shaft are in place, since any slight variation in that angle would bind things up - better to wait and check the actual dimensions/angle before drilling that hole rather than depend on the plans, lots of parts in between and lots of tolerances that could stack up.
(https://i.postimg.cc/CLGcLkR5/IMG-9744.jpg)

After lunch I think I'll get the crankshaft bearings lapped in...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: mklotz on July 22, 2021, 06:19:23 PM
...I REALLY need to make that smaller ratchet - getting the screws in on the lower part of the case was tough, not much finger room there. ...

I've often wondered why those import 4mm sets didn't include a ratchet for jobs like you're encountering.

I wouldn't mind having one but don't feel like making it from scratch as you intend to do.  I have a wrench similar to this one...

 https://www.amazon.com/MulWark-Profile-Ratchet-Quarters-Screwdriver/dp/B07D4DZB1T/ref=sr_1_13?crid=1SY57AG4V54XD&dchild=1&keywords=mini+ratchet+wrench+set&qid=1626972790&sprefix=mini+ratchet+wr%2Caps%2C238&sr=8-13

I would take a bit of 1/4" brass hex, drill it out to 4mm, and use the vise to press in a T25 Torx bit to start "hexifying" the hole which would then be filed to shape.  A thin sheet metal cover on one end to keep the bits from sliding through and then size this to the thickness of the hex socket in the wrench.

If I cut down the shafts on the 4mm bits, I think I could get this arrangement into a 5/8" slot.

Just brainstorming right now.  I'm waiting to see what you devise and/or the clever Asians introducing one.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: ddmckee54 on July 22, 2021, 06:49:19 PM
Chris:

When I saw your ratchet design it never tripped any alarm bells for me.  However, when I saw Marv's link it reminded me of what I picked up at Lowes a couple of years ago.  https://www.lowes.com/pd/Kobalt-35-Piece-Standard-SAE-and-Metric-Polished-Chrome-Mechanics-Tool-Set/3387640?cm_mmc=shp-_-c-_-prd-_-tol-_-google-_-pla-_-218-_-mechanicstools-_-3387640-_-0&placeholder=null&ds_rl=1286981&gclid=CjwKCAjwruSHBhAtEiwA_qCppjYYZ4et__dH-wQO6l-vncrVx6KPnltpfuDGHhTVbF9lvAw-jo3kUxoC9i4QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds (https://www.lowes.com/pd/Kobalt-35-Piece-Standard-SAE-and-Metric-Polished-Chrome-Mechanics-Tool-Set/3387640?cm_mmc=shp-_-c-_-prd-_-tol-_-google-_-pla-_-218-_-mechanicstools-_-3387640-_-0&placeholder=null&ds_rl=1286981&gclid=CjwKCAjwruSHBhAtEiwA_qCppjYYZ4et__dH-wQO6l-vncrVx6KPnltpfuDGHhTVbF9lvAw-jo3kUxoC9i4QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds) (MAN they pack a lot of junk into that link!)

At $20 you're not out much if it doesn't work for the Holly.  I don't use mine a lot, but when I need to get to a screw in a confined space it's the goto.  (It's not worth much on a rusted screw in a bad spot, but then what is?)

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 22, 2021, 06:52:59 PM
...I REALLY need to make that smaller ratchet - getting the screws in on the lower part of the case was tough, not much finger room there. ...

I've often wondered why those import 4mm sets didn't include a ratchet for jobs like you're encountering.

I wouldn't mind having one but don't feel like making it from scratch as you intend to do.  I have a wrench similar to this one...

 https://www.amazon.com/MulWark-Profile-Ratchet-Quarters-Screwdriver/dp/B07D4DZB1T/ref=sr_1_13?crid=1SY57AG4V54XD&dchild=1&keywords=mini+ratchet+wrench+set&qid=1626972790&sprefix=mini+ratchet+wr%2Caps%2C238&sr=8-13 (https://www.amazon.com/MulWark-Profile-Ratchet-Quarters-Screwdriver/dp/B07D4DZB1T/ref=sr_1_13?crid=1SY57AG4V54XD&dchild=1&keywords=mini+ratchet+wrench+set&qid=1626972790&sprefix=mini+ratchet+wr%2Caps%2C238&sr=8-13)

I would take a bit of 1/4" brass hex, drill it out to 4mm, and use the vise to press in a T25 Torx bit to start "hexifying" the hole which would then be filed to shape.  A thin sheet metal cover on one end to keep the bits from sliding through and then size this to the thickness of the hex socket in the wrench.

If I cut down the shafts on the 4mm bits, I think I could get this arrangement into a 5/8" slot.

Just brainstorming right now.  I'm waiting to see what you devise and/or the clever Asians introducing one.
Hi Marv,
That style ratchet is close, but the 1/4" bits make it a little too big - I also wish Wiha made a mini one. They do have a ratchet, but its bulky - their main market is computer techs, that sort of thing, so its fine for that.
Interesting idea to 'forge' out the center. I did do a custom cutter sort of like a keyway cutter for the Marion engines (with help from this forum) that worked well. A similar cutter for the 4mm hex seems do-able. Hmmmm....  I was planning to take a spare extension rod from their set and cut it off and insert it into the gear. Lots of ways to peal that feline, I guess! 

I'm almost at a good breaking point on this build to spin off to the side and make the ratchet handle - will post the results and plans for everyone here. The plans I've drawn up get it down to a .45" wide by .225" thick body, could go narrower with exposing the gear on the sides like the one you linked to.
I have not gotten to lapping the crank bearings this afternoon, had to do some reloading for a shoot tonight, and ran into an issue with the press - have to replace the indexing pawl, which is worn out on the end. Spent a fair bit of time diagnosing that, by the time all that is done it will be time to head out. More tomorrow!
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 22, 2021, 06:55:52 PM
Chris:

When I saw your ratchet design it never tripped any alarm bells for me.  However, when I saw Marv's link it reminded me of what I picked up at Lowes a couple of years ago.  https://www.lowes.com/pd/Kobalt-35-Piece-Standard-SAE-and-Metric-Polished-Chrome-Mechanics-Tool-Set/3387640?cm_mmc=shp-_-c-_-prd-_-tol-_-google-_-pla-_-218-_-mechanicstools-_-3387640-_-0&placeholder=null&ds_rl=1286981&gclid=CjwKCAjwruSHBhAtEiwA_qCppjYYZ4et__dH-wQO6l-vncrVx6KPnltpfuDGHhTVbF9lvAw-jo3kUxoC9i4QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds (https://www.lowes.com/pd/Kobalt-35-Piece-Standard-SAE-and-Metric-Polished-Chrome-Mechanics-Tool-Set/3387640?cm_mmc=shp-_-c-_-prd-_-tol-_-google-_-pla-_-218-_-mechanicstools-_-3387640-_-0&placeholder=null&ds_rl=1286981&gclid=CjwKCAjwruSHBhAtEiwA_qCppjYYZ4et__dH-wQO6l-vncrVx6KPnltpfuDGHhTVbF9lvAw-jo3kUxoC9i4QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds) (MAN they pack a lot of junk into that link!)

At $20 you're not out much if it doesn't work for the Holly.  I don't use mine a lot, but when I need to get to a screw in a confined space it's the goto.  (It's not worth much on a rusted screw in a bad spot, but then what is?)

Don
Hi Don,
That type of set is something I already have, its too large to get into these spaces. The Wiha bits are .157" (4mm) across the flats vs .25" on the normal sets, and the ratchet handle end on those is quite large compared to what I need.  The one I've designed is about half the size - will see how it holds up, should be a fun experiment at least!
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: ddmckee54 on July 22, 2021, 07:32:44 PM
When you make the ratchet, be sure you chrome plate it and engrave the handle with the "Snap-On" logo.  It'll make the elves feel important 'cause you only get the best for them.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 22, 2021, 07:54:16 PM
When you make the ratchet, be sure you chrome plate it and engrave the handle with the "Snap-On" logo.  It'll make the elves feel important 'cause you only get the best for them.
:ROFL:
The mini combination wrenches I have (1/8", etc) are snap-on. Maybe for this one I'lll engrave it Snap-Off.   :LittleDevil:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: ddmckee54 on July 22, 2021, 08:36:48 PM
Just so long as they don't take the Snap-Off as literal instructions.  It's bad enough having them tighten the screws in those locations to 1/4 turn before it breaks, let alone trying to extract a busted screw from there.  Might just have a wildcat strike on your hands if that happens.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on July 22, 2021, 09:37:10 PM
You could stamp it "PROTO" similar to the alternate well known tool brand to Scrap All tools. After all, it IS a proto, being the first one......  :Lol:   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: samc88 on July 23, 2021, 07:59:32 AM
Nice work on the flywheels, always amazes me at how you can make such large pieces on such small equipment. Nice feature being able to rotate the headstock
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 23, 2021, 01:49:29 PM
Nice work on the flywheels, always amazes me at how you can make such large pieces on such small equipment. Nice feature being able to rotate the headstock
Thanks! That headstock feature has come in handy on a number of projects. At least for the ratchet handle project the parts will be smaller than the machines for once!

After the conversations yesterday and Marvs suggestion on the tool holder piece, the shop elves and I got to doing some brainstorming over thimble-steins of Elfenstiener beer for some improvements to my initial SnapToff ratchet design. Looks like it can be smaller and simpler, getting that drawn up now...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on July 23, 2021, 08:23:14 PM
How many times during the ratchet brainstorming session did the shop elves suggest breaking away for another Mann truck run for more Elfensteiner stubbies? (or did they stock up beforehand?)  :Lol:   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 23, 2021, 09:08:27 PM
How many times during the ratchet brainstorming session did the shop elves suggest breaking away for another Mann truck run for more Elfensteiner stubbies? (or did they stock up beforehand?)  :Lol:   :cheers:
They had a full truck full when we started. They are off again refilling it now!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 23, 2021, 09:14:38 PM
Today got the crankshaft bearings lapped in, started with the coarse grade of Timesavers powder and oil and worked down to the fine grades. Then took the plunge and cut the center section of the main shaft away from the webs - all good fortunately! Still a nervous cut. I sawed away the bulk, then used the mill to trim the cut ends back flush with the webs.

(https://i.postimg.cc/mr4vbXPh/IMG-9755.jpg)

Here it is on the bearings

(https://i.postimg.cc/c4pqz4ZR/IMG-9756.jpg)

Right now am getting the flywheels painted, here is one done, other one is in process. I used the mandrel with the taper hub as a stand to keep it off the paint table.

(https://i.postimg.cc/13Dx1h5L/IMG-9757.jpg)

Tomorrow the paint will be cured up enough to assemble the flywheels on to the crankshaft and attach the end cranks too.

So, that left me with time for the ratchet redraw in Fusion - am going to start a new thread for that build - should be a fairly quick one assuming it works as planned.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 23, 2021, 11:13:04 PM
No surprise, I couldn't wait till tomorrow to get the flywheels and crankshaft assembled and on the engine:
(https://i.postimg.cc/NGpYMctT/IMG-9759.jpg)
A quick video proving that yup, they do go round and round!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8SbWS0dmHI

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Don1966 on July 23, 2021, 11:16:22 PM
Awesome …….. :Love:


 :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on July 23, 2021, 11:17:30 PM
The flywheels really look great after painting and all mounted up!  Well done, Chris!
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on July 24, 2021, 12:30:14 AM
Looks superb Chris!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 25, 2021, 04:43:56 PM
Thanks guys!   The ratchet handle build (on another thread) is complete, so I can get back to the Holly model. Next steps are either to make the catwalk brackets and floor, or move on to the engine frames. Either way will work, but in looking at things it seems like skipping the catwalk for now may be the better choice, it will make getting at the engine beds harder if the catwalk is in place. It can be added later no problem, all the bolt holes for the brackets are on the vertical faces around the engine beds so easy to get at. That means some time spent in Fusion 360 to get the engine frame drawings generated from the 3D model (3D model is all complete, but I am generating the plan sheets from it as I go). Then I need to figure out how I will fabricate the engine frames, they are a complex set of beams and braces, including the crosshead guides. Here are some screen grab from the CAD model:
First the overall engine, showing how the catwalks sit around the engine:
(https://i.postimg.cc/zfjwmw2Y/Full-Engine-View.jpg)
And a shot of just the frames:
(https://i.postimg.cc/fbZ7gqKv/Engine-Frames-View.jpg)
The lay shaft shows on this view as well, plus the drive gear case that I already fitted to the crankshaft. There are K-shaped braces between the sets of frames, and each frame pair is connected top and middle, with the crosshead guide running vertically in the center, plus all the little brackets. The original plan was to fabricate the frames from square bar stock. Now I just need to decide the details of how to actually do that for six sets of frames. Going to need some time out on the porch rocker to think about it.... zzzzzzzzZZZZzzzzz....
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steam guy willy on July 25, 2021, 05:01:49 PM
Hi Chris ..love this build.....amazing workmanship and skill...Looks Wonderfull

Willy
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on July 25, 2021, 05:35:03 PM
Wow!  This is like a high-rise engine and you've just finished the main level - now you've got several more stories to go!

It's already impressive now, I can't imagine what it will look like completed!

Amaizing work, Chris!
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 25, 2021, 08:34:14 PM
Thanks guys. Kim, you are right, this is about where a lot of engine builds would be after a short time, been many months so far! Only about another foot of height to go!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 25, 2021, 08:40:24 PM
This afternoon I've been in playing on the computer in the CAD app, and have worked out most of a fixture plate that will let me mill/drill the pieces for the engine frames. Here is what I have so far:
(https://i.postimg.cc/JzfyTpNz/Engine-Frame-Fixture.jpg)
The blocks will hold pieces for shaping and assembly. They will be loctited and bolted to the plate. There are two long plates off the back, one visible at the right side, angled to match the opposite frame side. This will allow the plate to be bolted to the t-slot on the side of the mill table, to stand it up on edge but with the opposite frame level to the mill. Those plates will be removeable to let it sit flat on the table. Still need to draw up the fixtures to make the T-shaped pieces for the cross slide guides. Those will be mortise/tenon'ed into the frame rails. Lots more to figure out before any metal gets cut, like making the pad feet and the other bracketry that hangs off the frame rails.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on July 25, 2021, 11:16:29 PM
Hi Chris, on the left side of the frame in your pic there is a plate shown with 3 holes at top and 3 at the bottom. What was that for on the original engine? I was just thinking that if the casting had much of a cavity in it behind this plate, it would be a structural weak spot. Just curious. That plate and blocks setup will be some involved fixturing!

 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 25, 2021, 11:44:25 PM
Hi Chris, on the left side of the frame in your pic there is a plate shown with 3 holes at top and 3 at the bottom. What was that for on the original engine? I was just thinking that if the casting had much of a cavity in it behind this plate, it would be a structural weak spot. Just curious. That plate and blocks setup will be some involved fixturing!

 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
The engine frames have a bunch of plates like that, for mounting catwalks, the lay shaft brackets, and the K-shaped brackets. The original had the frames hollow, but where the plates stuck out like that the insides were continuous in the hollow box shape, not rising up at the plates so no extra inside corners there. 

This picture shows a bunch of the stuff that hangs off - the smaller blocks sticking out in the middle and top are for the catwalks, the larger round and rectangular-ish ones are for the lay shafts.  I am going to make the frames at first without the extra bumped out plates, and add blocks for those afterwards - that will let me start with 1/2" x 1/2" bar stock like with the lower pump frames.

I was just making some mods to the fixture plate design, putting in some spacer blocks to allow the drill chuck to come in on the side, and changing a little of the layout to make it easier to make. The plate and supports will be aluminum, adding some clamp bars of steel across the blocks. Going to be mortise/tenon joints on the rails, with pins to hold the joints together. Should be a lot of fun - if machining is fun (it is for me!)

 :cheers:
(https://i.postimg.cc/fbZ7gqKv/Engine-Frames-View.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on July 26, 2021, 12:03:38 AM
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 26, 2021, 02:25:49 PM
The logging museum up in Maine had thier Heavy Metal summer event this past weekend - here is a video that Herb at the museum posted. I was not able to make it up there for this event, but I am planning on going in the fall for their two-day event.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBnUEsBduLg

As for the Holly build, today am getting more worked out on the frame jig and parts.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 26, 2021, 07:24:34 PM
Got the plans for the engine frame jig finalized and plans generated for it. Now can start cutting stock for the jig as well as for the frame rails. Would have gotten to this point this morning but the power went out for a few hours. So, had to go hold down the rocker on the porch!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dreeves on July 27, 2021, 03:44:20 AM
Great work Chris. I was disappointed you did not make chug noises when turning the flywheel over  :ROFL:

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 27, 2021, 04:08:26 AM
Great work Chris. I was disappointed you did not make chug noises when turning the flywheel over  :ROFL:

Dave
I was too busy grinning!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 27, 2021, 06:29:16 PM
Been doing some stock prep for the engine frames 'kit'. Bunch of rails cut from 1/2" square bar and the blanks for the pad feet at the bottom cut down from some thicker stock.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sxgSQTPV/IMG-9806.jpg)
And before anyone chokes on the amount of brass I go through, this stock was only about $50, for six engine frames.
Milling and drilling for the frame jig starts this afternoon....
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on July 27, 2021, 09:23:10 PM
After brief self-resuscitation,  :Lol: I can only say  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

When I see Chris with those piles of cut solid gold stock, I know there are great parts to be made, coming soon!  :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on July 27, 2021, 11:44:38 PM
Looks so pretty just sitting there!   :popcorn:

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 28, 2021, 03:10:59 PM
To go along with the pile of 'gold', here is some 'silver'   :Lol:
These are the aluminum and steel blocks for the engine frame jig, cut to rough size, ready for cutting in the steps and drilling lots of holes...
(https://i.postimg.cc/YCMb7LSk/IMG-9807.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on July 28, 2021, 10:47:33 PM
Aluminum, silver, it's just 6061 or half a dozen of the other!  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 28, 2021, 11:01:07 PM
Aluminum, silver, it's just 6061 or half a dozen of the other!  :Lol:


 :ROFL:


I got the jig support blocks milled to shape, that went easy. Drilling the holes through them is going slower, having to clear chips and add oil halfway through each hole. Also glued the pattern for the holes to the main plate. Not using it for lining up holes, that will be handwheel measured, but it will let me keep track of which holes are drilled and which is next. Pictures of that tomorrow.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 29, 2021, 04:05:27 PM
This morning got going on the frame fixture parts. Started with the supports that go on top and hold the frame pieces. Six of them are U-shaped to cradle both sides and bottom of the frame rail, six are L-shaped to support bottom and one side. They were milled from some 3/8" aluminum bar. Holes were also drilled/tapped in the supports for 8-32 screws.

(https://i.postimg.cc/MpzxHjJt/IMG-9808.jpg)
Checking the fit, want it to be a snug fit so no movement.
(https://i.postimg.cc/5tRMs7Yk/IMG-9809.jpg)
Then made up the main plate from some 5" wide x 3/8" thick aluminum. I used some glue-stick on the paper pattern, printed at full size, to glue it to the plate. Now, I am just using this as an easy way to see the X/Y coordinates for each hole and keep track of which one I'm going to next - I know from past experience on R&D team for printer development that you cannot trust the layout printed on paper - the printers have paper feed errors (distance and direction) plus the paper changes with humidity quite a bit. I zeroed the handwheels on the mill table at the back left corner of the plate, and worked my way across it drilling the holes for the screws, keeping careful track of where I was and how many cranks till the next hole.
(https://i.postimg.cc/5t0Vqd0C/IMG-9810.jpg)
After lots of careful drilling, and then counter drilling the holes with an end mill (which was not critical for placement, just needed to be close to center of each hole so the screw heads would go in past flush) the supports were screwed on and some of the rail pieces pushed in to check the fit. Worked out perfect, big relief there!

(https://i.postimg.cc/1tV12GDR/IMG-9812.jpg)
I still need to drill the holes in the steel bars (left side of picture) that will be used as clamps on the rails, using hex nuts to squeeze them down. The supports were tapped for the screws, so they will stay tight to the plate whether the nuts are tight or not. Also need to make a bar that bolts to the back, using the unused holes in the plate, to make alignment to the mill table easy  at an angle matching the opposite rail piece. This bar will be drilled for t-nuts/screws to bolt it to the mill table. More on that later...
Here is a picture of the back of the plate, showing how the screws are countersunk in.
(https://i.postimg.cc/pLkvFX2v/IMG-9813.jpg)
So far so good, may be able to start shaping frame rails tomorrow.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: ddmckee54 on July 29, 2021, 04:48:55 PM
Chris:

You've probably already said, but how are the frames parts going to be held together, bolts, solder, elf spit, bubble gum, baling wire?

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 29, 2021, 05:42:52 PM
Chris:

You've probably already said, but how are the frames parts going to be held together, bolts, solder, elf spit, bubble gum, baling wire?

Don
All of the above....   :Lol:   Wait, I thought Loctite was just purified elf spit?! 


The way I did the lower pump frames was with mortise/tenon joints milled in, but that had problems with the square cornered holes. For this set I am trying drilling and inserting brass rods to form the tenons, so I can use round holes throughout. The rods, most likely 1/4" diameter, will be loctited and pinned.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Roger B on July 29, 2021, 06:51:58 PM
I'm still following in the background  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp: So many fine pieces and lots of swarf  :praise2:  :praise2:  :wine1:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on July 29, 2021, 08:56:44 PM
Just remember, if you use baling wire for an assembly, the rusty and kinked used kind is stronger and grips best.............one of these days LocLoose will probably offer it in fluid form for $732.45 a 5 mL bottle.  :Lol:

The jig work looks great Chris!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 29, 2021, 11:57:28 PM
Here is the fixture plate with the angled piece attached, showing how it sits on the mill table and bolts to the t-slot
(https://i.postimg.cc/1tG6D5H9/IMG-9814.jpg)
Easier to see what its doing when its turned around - the side rail that is at the top is now level. If the angle bar is on the other side, the opposite rail will be level. This will be used when drilling the pin holes to fasten the parts, and also for drilling/milling operations to attach all the other little brackets that go on the side rails later. Much more consistant and held more secure than trying to level it in the mill vise.
(https://i.postimg.cc/HkryBt2v/IMG-9816.jpg)
It also works when the fixture is laid down flat on the mill table - the angled bar rests against the side of the mill table, and gets the angle correct horizontally. I did have to temporarily remove the table lock to get it to fit.

(https://i.postimg.cc/vHH96y6s/IMG-9817.jpg)
With the fixture down flat, and a blank for the middle rail clamped in place, the angle can be milled on the end by running the mill table left/right for the cut, and moved in for depth of cut.

(https://i.postimg.cc/BbNKwYkk/IMG-9820.jpg)
And the real test for whether it all works - turned the trimmed end of the middle rail around, and it seats up nice and snug against the side rail.  :whoohoo:
The rails all have a little bit of a radiused corner, so it looks like there is a small gap but there is not. After assembly, the frames will be trimmed down on the wide faces to final thickness, and that radius will go away.

(https://i.postimg.cc/NGxmMFFD/IMG-9821.jpg)
The same sort of operations will be done on the top of the side rails where they meet the upper crossbar, but there the fixture will be set square to the mill table. For drilling the ends of the side rails, the fixture will be stood upright - the mill column does have enough height for that (checked several times! )

Looks like the fixture is going to work out well - very happy with that!   ^-^
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RReid on July 30, 2021, 12:28:44 AM
That fixture looks like a really clever and effective solution to more than one problem. Nice work! :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 30, 2021, 01:07:31 AM
Thanks Ron,  it's the big brother of the one I came up with for the lower frames, those didn't connect at the top/middle like these, so the jig was only for one side for those.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: ddmckee54 on July 30, 2021, 05:18:34 PM
I of course can't speak from personal experience, but I've been told that Bondo and paint covers many sins things.  (You know, Bondo and paint makes me the welder I ain't.)

Since you're painting everything anyway, those small gaps would be a perfect application.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 30, 2021, 07:42:35 PM
I of course can't speak from personal experience, but I've been told that Bondo and paint covers many sins things.  (You know, Bondo and paint makes me the welder I ain't.)

Since you're painting everything anyway, those small gaps would be a perfect application.

Don
In this particular case the gaps will go away once the sides of the frames are milled to thickness - they are only there due to the radius on the bar stock corners. For the models, I typically use a little JB-Kwik epoxy, easier to mix up in very small amounts, but same end effect as Bondo.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 30, 2021, 10:19:18 PM
Here is the radiused corner I was talking about - this is the way the bars came, not something I added. After assembly, the faces on the top and bottom in this picture will be milled down to take the part to the final thickness, and that will get rid of the little gaps that the radius leave when the parts are together. The brass has all been stress relieved (500F in the oven for an hour) so taking a cut down the face won't cause the bars to bend like they would without the relieving.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sxQB9Dmv/IMG-9826.jpg)
So, this afternoon I got some time to start trimming the ends of the middle frame rails. First trimmed one end just enough to get past the rough cut end, then moved to the other end of the bars and trimmed them to length. The first one took longer, I checked the fit several times and moved the table in slightly several times - once I got a good fit between the side rails, the handwheel was zeroed so the rest could go quickly, just milled in to the zero tick. Here is one after trimming, when I was checking the fit. The cuts were done at the end of the middle bar, the end where it has the '6' marked on it.

(https://i.postimg.cc/265LyxBd/IMG-9823.jpg)
and here are the other five. So far the numbers are not really needed, but later on they will be, when the other bracket holes and such get added - each frame has different brackets and plates mounted to it.

(https://i.postimg.cc/j5kw7Jzp/IMG-9824.jpg)
I did set up for trimming the angles on the top ends of the side rails, got one done before stopping for the day.
(https://i.postimg.cc/pV45VzV8/IMG-9825.jpg)
Fits well...
(https://i.postimg.cc/mkvPdfpV/IMG-9828.jpg)
After all the angled ends are trimmed, the length of the side rails can be done. The bottom ends are just cut square across, larger blocks that the pad feet will be milled out of will be attached at the bottom ends.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Don1966 on July 31, 2021, 01:31:59 AM
Very intuitive Dog and …….i……………likeeeeee… :Love:


 :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 31, 2021, 04:27:04 PM
Very intuitive Dog and …….i……………likeeeeee… :Love:


 :drinking-41:
Don
Thanks Don!

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 31, 2021, 04:37:29 PM
The rest of the rails have been trimmed for the angled ends, here is what one set of parts looks like sitting in the jig now:
(https://i.postimg.cc/XYL7vjZM/IMG-9829.jpg)
Next step was to trimm the long side rails to final length. The bottom end is square across the bottom, so they were set up in the mill vise, with a 1-2-3 block clamped to the mill table to act as a length stop. Once the first one was nibbled to proper length, the handwheel was zeroed so the rest could go quickly.
(https://i.postimg.cc/KYYck6L1/IMG-9830.jpg)
Next up were the top horizontal rails. They were first trimmed to overall length, then I came back and started notching in the ends to form the little platform which will be used to bolt catwalk brackets to. First took off the two sides at each end (careful to keep the orientation correct so both ends matched). For these cuts, the far end of the rails were lined up with the other end of the mill vise, then a pass taken across. Lots of cuts to do both ends of all six rails, but this way it goes quick - clamp in vise, with left end aligned to vise back jaw, take a pass, on to next.

(https://i.postimg.cc/8zNzDJzB/IMG-9831.jpg)
Then deepened the cut to take off the third side:
(https://i.postimg.cc/cJ5xQFMX/IMG-9832.jpg)
I've been looking at the rest of the frames, and there are a number of extra blocks and posts that will be added. It turns out that those extra pieces would cover the ends of the joints, so I can actually use screws with heads countersunk in to join the rails rather than pinning them, and the other blocks will cover the holes left. This will be a lot easier to do, and a pair of screws at each joint will be very secure. Looks like 4-40 SHCS would fit fine.
The next job will be to lay out and cut for the plates on the top rails - there are overhangs on the top rails that support the cylinder bases. Each piston has a different base size and bolt pattern, so each pair of rails will be different - time to start marking which is which and which side is which!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on July 31, 2021, 07:50:15 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 01, 2021, 03:51:15 PM
Getting more done on the engine frames. While set up with the mill vise I finished trimming the pad feet blocks to the same size, and added another cradle set to the bottom of the jig to hold them. It looks a little like the frame Dr Frankenstein used to hold his monster shop elf down with! My elves took one look, screamed, and ran off and hid.
(https://i.postimg.cc/0QGMmcs6/IMG-9833.jpg)
Closeup of the new cradle, showing how it hold the block to the bottom of the frame for drilling.
(https://i.postimg.cc/tJX1zWqB/IMG-9834.jpg)
Then it was on to drilling/tapping the top crossbar to the first side of the frame. I have a center drill that is 3/16" diameter, so I used that to start the holes and it also left a hole sized for some brass rod to plug over the screw head. Used a clearance then tap drill for 4-40 screws.
(https://i.postimg.cc/28SbbQX6/IMG-9835.jpg)
And the first one done...
(https://i.postimg.cc/DypWqStc/IMG-9836.jpg)
Later on had a nice stack of hockey sticks for the elves next game...
(https://i.postimg.cc/3xyk9KhQ/IMG-9837.jpg)
Swapped the base rail over and started in drilling the holes on the second side of the frames. This is all working out well, takes about 15 minutes to do one joint, and it winds up all nicely aligned.
(https://i.postimg.cc/6qY8bqTt/IMG-9839.jpg)
First frame up to having sides/top on. After all are to this stage I'll start on the middle rails.
(https://i.postimg.cc/9XpwQ8bK/IMG-9840.jpg)
Just had to set it up on top of the model to get a sense of how it will look. Getting quite tall!!
(https://i.postimg.cc/vZpcNp8g/IMG-9841.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Brian Rupnow on August 02, 2021, 01:02:17 AM
Chris--I continue to watch, and marvel at how much work you do in a short time. You are doing great work, and a lot of it.---Brian
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 02, 2021, 06:01:45 PM
Great to have you along Brian!

And todays progress report is brought to you by the letter 'A'!   :Lol:
The middle rails were drilled/tapped and screwed in first on one side
(https://i.postimg.cc/N0TL2Ngm/IMG-9842.jpg)
and then the other
(https://i.postimg.cc/FRVRD7kK/IMG-9843.jpg)
After several sessions in the shop, a nice stack of capital A's ready for the pad feet to be attached:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Y02SVMQz/IMG-9845.jpg)
Given the height overall and the size of the foot blocks, I am thinking it will go quicker to drill/counterdrill the holes in the feet blocks just in the mill vise, then put them in the jig and drill the holes through into the rails. The mill column is just tall enough to do the final drilling with the tap drill, if I want to do the counterbores and all then I need to switch the drill chuck out for the 3-jaw, which adds a lot of time and fussing about. So, drill the counterbore and through drill the blocks with the tap size drill in the mill vise, use that as a drill guide for the side rails, then expand the block holes out to clearance back in the vise. Overall it should go quicker though it sounds like more steps.If the mill column was just another inch or so taller...!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on August 02, 2021, 07:14:54 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

I hope the shop elves don't get any ideas about appropriating the "a" frames to build their new trestle on the garden railway. If you are listening to the shop elf banter, and hear the code word "The Fonz" it might mean the trestle build is about to start. (The Fonz was famous for his "Aaaaaaaaaa" when arriving, on the Happy Days TV show)  :Lol:

(sorry  :facepalm:)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 03, 2021, 08:18:14 PM

....
(sorry  :facepalm: )
I know you, you're not sorry, I can hear the laughing from here!   :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 03, 2021, 08:25:43 PM
More drilling and tapping time, and the pad feet blocks are bolted on (no loctite or anything on the joints yet, still need to be able to take it all apart for cutting in attachment points on the inside faces for other bracketry and the crosshead guide rails).
(https://i.postimg.cc/KYpfPJr8/IMG-9847.jpg)
As you can see (just) at the bottom of the pads, they are square to the frame rails and dont sit flat on the table. They were cut a little oversize so that the bottom face of each could be taken off to the proper angle in the next step. The frame jig was bolted down square to the mill table, and the bottoms of the feet taken off square to the mill table. This ensures that the angles match up, the bottoms are all in a line, and the total height of the frame is correct - had to get out a longer dial caliper to measure the overall height, the usual 6" one would not reach.
(https://i.postimg.cc/PxBMcJ7G/IMG-9848.jpg)
A view looking down on the cut bottom faces:
(https://i.postimg.cc/NGHDX8yQ/IMG-9849.jpg)
So here is the first frame with the foot blocks cut, standing on the top of the engine beds. Five more to get to this stage, then a lot more shaping to do on the feet - end result will look more like the feet in this screen grab from the CAD model, which also shows the rest of the brackets and crosshead rails. Lots to do on the frames still!
(https://i.postimg.cc/fbZ7gqKv/Engine-Frames-View.jpg)




Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on August 04, 2021, 12:33:23 AM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Frame progress looks great!

(oh, and re the laughing - guilty as charged, m'lord...... :Lol:)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 04, 2021, 10:08:08 PM
Today got the rest of the pad feet bottom faces milled down, and started in with the shaping of the other sides of the feet. They get squared off to length/width at the bottom, and taper in to the sides of the frame rails, leaving the bosses sticking up for the mounting bolts. These are going to take a number of different setups. Started in with the width cuts at the bottom and next to the rails...
(https://i.postimg.cc/fW0j1rPQ/IMG-9853.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 05, 2021, 04:35:49 PM
Next up was to get the ends of the feet to the proper angle and length. The rest of these shaping steps will be done with the feet unscrewed from the frame rails and in the mill vise, not room to get around them in the frame jig. The one laying on the mill table to right of the vise is before trimming the ends square to the bottom faces.

(https://i.postimg.cc/L8hG005P/IMG-9855.jpg)
and after trimming the angles - both ends are square to the bottom faces, and to finished overall length.
(https://i.postimg.cc/v8tR1VC4/IMG-9854.jpg)
Now to trim the sides to the angle to go between the 1/8" wide flat at the bottom to meet the width of the frame rail at the top. Used a bevel gauge to record the angle on the first on, and draw a guide line on the rest to make the setup faster.
(https://i.postimg.cc/vH0phdYM/IMG-9857.jpg)
This shows the angles cut on on the sides of the first block compared to the starting shape of the next
(https://i.postimg.cc/SNSBcKpD/IMG-9856.jpg)
Small angles, but it really makes the appearance, aside from matching the originals! After the sides of all 12 blocks are trimmed, work can start on shaping the ends, which will be more complex to leave the bosses for the bolts and put in the curves to meet up with the frame rails.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on August 05, 2021, 08:10:00 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: ddmckee54 on August 06, 2021, 05:34:48 PM
Chris:

You been buying the bolts for this project by the gross, the pound, or the ton?

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 06, 2021, 07:01:36 PM
Chris:

You been buying the bolts for this project by the gross, the pound, or the ton?

Don
By the elf-load!
The size I use most is 2-56, some up to 5-40 and down to 0-80. The stainless hex head ones started getting hard to find a couple years ago so I tried to stock up whenever I saw them at a reasonable price. American Model Engineering sells all sizes, but is pricey and theirs are usually not fully threaded shanks, been able to find most sizes elsewhere. I did find a seller that had the 2-56x1/4" that I use most in a 10,000 count box, so have a lifetime supply of those! McMaster-Carr, Fastener Express, and MicroFasteners are my other usual sources, prices vary a lot so which I buy from does too - usually get several hundred at a time, have a stack of those plastic compartment boxes loaded up with all the sizes. Buying them by the hundred is a whole lot cheaper than by the dozen or each, way way cheaper! Wish I could find more in bulk to stock up, even buying 100 at a time gets pricey just in shipping cost. Also get the 'small-pattern' nuts when I can, they look better on models than the standard ones. Also use the long threaded rod for really long bolts.

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 06, 2021, 07:12:00 PM
More shoe-making for the engine frames....

With the foot blocks all tapered on the sides, next up was to cut in the flats on the ends where the mounting bolts to the engine beds will go. Same height but different width at each end. They will be notched in the center later.

(https://i.postimg.cc/FzB9D0Rv/IMG-9858.jpg)
Here is a pair showing the flats cut in on right, before version on left.

(https://i.postimg.cc/htxS1zqF/IMG-9859.jpg)
The ends get a shallow angle at the ends, goes to 1/8" above the base.
(https://i.postimg.cc/257rgs62/IMG-9861.jpg)
Here is where all the feet are so far, with next step sketched in to show how the flats get connected to the rails in a curve.
(https://i.postimg.cc/J4SrX3vc/IMG-9862.jpg)
I've started in on those cuts, using the rotary table. The assembled frames and feet are clamped down, I worked out positions on the clamps and a bolt to act as stops that the frame sits against to cut the inside curve - with this setup I can put each frame in and clamp it down in the same position which speeds up the work a lot.
(https://i.postimg.cc/XvbnHjVr/IMG-9863.jpg)
Closer look at the cut
(https://i.postimg.cc/05W2k1C4/IMG-9864.jpg)
and first frame with inside corners cut on the foot blocks
(https://i.postimg.cc/9FDXzg8Q/IMG-9865.jpg)
Five more frame for that step, then will work out a similar setup for the curves on the outside corners of the feet. The frames should be dancing in no time!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RReid on August 06, 2021, 08:22:13 PM
Quote
The frames should be dancing in no time!
As long as they do their dancing now and not while the engine is running! Looking great, as always.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on August 06, 2021, 09:31:44 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

The ancient saying "one man's feet are another man's 304.8 millimetres" comes to mind...... :Lol:

Just kidding. Lots of shaping to get those just so. Looking great!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 07, 2021, 03:47:24 PM
Got the other sides of the feet curved in as well

(https://i.postimg.cc/x82yjmjY/IMG-9866.jpg)

leaving a nice batch of almost-complete elf-boots

(https://i.postimg.cc/fT5jZkGn/IMG-9868.jpg)

Down to the last couple of steps - milled in the slots to separate the bosses for the mounting bolts

(https://i.postimg.cc/nL9vv2Cp/IMG-9869.jpg)

and then started drilling the bolt holes

(https://i.postimg.cc/L6mBrj03/IMG-9870.jpg)

First ones test fit to make sure the spacing is right both within each pad, and also between the two. Looks good, so can start on the rest of the pile.

(https://i.postimg.cc/Y26znd8S/IMG-9871.jpg)

Just had to set up the first two frames for a look, and also set the cylinder liner up about where the LP cylinder will go - it will be up on the cylinder base, so even taller.

(https://i.postimg.cc/XYzfGmNs/IMG-9873.jpg)

Turned around, and the shop elves had claimed it as thier new club house!

(https://i.postimg.cc/2S6d5rYq/IMG-9874.jpg)

This afternoon I'll continue drilling the rest of the pad feet, then can decide what to do next - still a lot to do on the frames, adding in the mounting pads for the lay shaft and cylinder bases, also a bunch of catwalk bracket pads, and thinning the width of the frames to final dimension. Oh, and the inside-corner curved bits too…
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steam guy willy on August 07, 2021, 04:39:22 PM
Wow ..looking really good  and the photos are also clear and sharp , so getting there slowly !!

Willy
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 07, 2021, 08:14:18 PM
Wow ..looking really good  and the photos are also clear and sharp , so getting there slowly !!

Willy
Thanks Willy - long way to go yet on the frames, but every stage it goes through really changes the look!
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Admiral_dk on August 07, 2021, 08:51:15 PM
Not only are you showing the current state of affairs on this amazing build - but all around the walls are other fantastic builds you have shared with us  :praise2:

For some reason the Shay are one of my favourites - maybe because it was your first here, and that it was posted in a period of not much other activity  :Love:

Per
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 07, 2021, 08:56:20 PM
Not only are you showing the current state of affairs on this amazing build - but all around the walls are other fantastic builds you have shared with us  :praise2:

For some reason the Shay are one of my favourites - maybe because it was your first here, and that it was posted in a period of not much other activity  :Love:

Per
Hi Per,


The Shay was the first big project I did in machining, had done a couple of clocks and small engines. I had a couple of the Kozo books for years, and after retirement I decided to give it a try, learned an awful lot from that build!  Now most of the projects seem to be big ones.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 07, 2021, 09:26:09 PM
After some nice reading time out on the front porch, got the rest of the mounting holes drilled in the engine frame feet and they are all assembled and bolted to the engine beds.   :whoohoo:
(https://i.postimg.cc/J0Ytnyjt/IMG-9875.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on August 08, 2021, 12:37:49 AM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 08, 2021, 08:11:31 PM
I worked out the blocks to inlay into the sides of the frame near the middle bar, where there are a couple bracket mounting points for the lay shaft catwalk. There is also a round boss that appears to be used as a lifting point when moving the frames into position (the real ones are close to 20 feet tall). I could have made these features as part of the side rails, but then would have had to mill away a lot of extra material for a couple small protrusions to be left. So, I am starting with some 1/4" x 1/2" bar stock, milling them to shape, and then will mill a shallow recess for them to fit into - will be held with small screws and loctite for good measure.
Here is what the inlays will look like:

(https://i.postimg.cc/mgZNmr3D/Middle-Block.jpg)

To start, cut/milled the blanks to length and then milled an angled step into a piece of aluminum (actually the angled bar for the frame jig) so each of the twelve bars could be held at a repeatable height and angle. The angle matches the angle of the side rails from vertical. With each held one at a time, ran an end mill in and around to form the angled ramp at the bottom, leaving the bracket boss sticking up. The round boss will be drilled/added as a seperate piece.
(https://i.postimg.cc/pdG0fFgR/IMG-9878.jpg)
Then clamped each piece vertically and ran the end mill down the face to form the curved section near the top
(https://i.postimg.cc/SsngDKh8/IMG-9879.jpg)
which left a little spike between the two, removed with another pass with small mill cutter
(https://i.postimg.cc/nr70fwMh/IMG-9880.jpg)
and then took the narrow boss down to final height
(https://i.postimg.cc/MTgd486L/IMG-9881.jpg)
Next time I'll lay out and start drilling the holes....
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 09, 2021, 01:57:30 PM
Moving on with the side blocks, got the holes drilled for the round posts, and spot drilled the locations for all the screw holes on the mill. Then used the little Proxxon drill press to drill the screw holes - much faster on that for 1-72 tap size than the mill, that small a hole needs backing out for chips a couple times.
(https://i.postimg.cc/fyxD5rVh/IMG-9882.jpg)
Also turned up a bunch of tube segments on the lathe for the posts...
(https://i.postimg.cc/J0wRNL4q/IMG-9883.jpg)
Then set up the frame fixture again to start milling the slots for the side blocks:
(https://i.postimg.cc/50QxQ01y/IMG-9884.jpg)
closer view
(https://i.postimg.cc/Xvzjv5Rt/IMG-9885.jpg)
and the first side block fitted in
(https://i.postimg.cc/s2XfymNp/IMG-9887.jpg)
The side blocks will be held with two screws and loctite.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 09, 2021, 06:26:48 PM
Got the rest of the recesses cut this afternoon, and started drilling/tapping the holes for mounting the side blocks
(https://i.postimg.cc/tCnDYGLT/IMG-9888.jpg)
Here is one of the first pair screwed on, and the round post set in place. Loctiting them in will wait till the rest of the inlay blocks are done, there are more to get cut into the inside faces of the rails, so I need to be able to take the rails off still.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Z5kHNDSL/IMG-9891.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Roger B on August 09, 2021, 07:27:03 PM
So many fine pieces (but you do have some helpers  :) )  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp: :wine1:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 10, 2021, 08:33:41 PM
So many fine pieces (but you do have some helpers  :) )  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :wine1:
Thanks Roger!  (and thanks to the elves too, they do help, between raucus parties and RC truck thefts)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 10, 2021, 08:52:26 PM
And continuing on the umpteenth page of this build (  :LittleDevil: ) more done on the top fittings on the engine frames. The blocks inlaid into the middle of the side rails could have been duplicated at the top as well, since there is another set of bracket mounting bosses there too. But, the top horizontal rail was cut long enough to get most of that built in, which is saving some time. The top boss was put in when I made the top rails, but the curve to blend it into the side rails needed to wait till now, so that there are side rails to blend to! So, did just that, several plunge cuts to remove the bulk of the material then a couple fine passes to smooth it out:
(https://i.postimg.cc/2jMZ6f0y/IMG-9892.jpg)
Here is what the look like at that point
(https://i.postimg.cc/q7wKMhFH/IMG-9893.jpg)
The vertical boss for the bottom of the catwalk bracket went through several rounds of thinking, then I realized that I have a small corner rounding end mill, with a 1/16" radius - perfect for rounding the ends on some 1/8" bar, to fit in a slot made by a 1/8" end mill. That idea hit me in the back of the head last night (might have been accompanied by a shop elve's beer stein) so I got to work on shaping a round-sided bar:
(https://i.postimg.cc/d0wdYm49/IMG-9894.jpg)
Took some trial and error to get the depths right in both directions, then it was done on both sides. A matching slot was cut in the top ends of the side rails:
(https://i.postimg.cc/0jMKfty9/IMG-9895.jpg)
to take the rounded bar:
(https://i.postimg.cc/d10y7QMk/IMG-9896.jpg)
That worked great, so milled the rest of the slots and cut short lengths off the bar, which were then loctited into the slots.The next bit to go on is the short projection off the top rail. All six frames have the same projection on one side, but different length ones on the other side, so I started with the simple ones. Took some 1/8" square bar and drilled/tapped for a couple 2-56 screws. Working with this small a bar was easier in the mini-vise - the parallels I have would have held them up in the normal vise, but the parallels are also 1/8" thick, which makes it hard to ensure the bar is held properly too.
(https://i.postimg.cc/JndBjwmT/IMG-9898.jpg)
Then milled a notch at the edge of the top rails, clamped the short bars (which needed the lower corners sanded in a radius to match the inside corners left by the end mill) into the opening, and drilled/tapped into the top rail. Now, I don't want to leave a screw head showing, and the bars are too thin to countersink them in, so I threaded both pieces together.

(https://i.postimg.cc/8PvrfnYH/IMG-9899.jpg)
When assembled some loctite was put into the notch and also the screw holes, and I used some brass screws. After the loctite has set up the heads will be ground off on the sander to leave the faces flat. Also put in the round bosses at the top.

(https://i.postimg.cc/13ZVGrhZ/IMG-9900.jpg)
The vertical bosses will need some cleanup on the faces to get them all the same distance out, can do that as well after the loctite has cured. Then will drill/tap all the holes for the top catwalk brackets, and move on to the rest of the protrusions needed on the frames - 14 pieces plus screws per frame so far, and thats maybe half what they will have when complete.


Tomorrow am off to the Pageant of Steam in Canandaigua NY, that show usually has a bunch of traction engines trundling around, lots of farm tractors, and construction equipment playing in the dirt.   :cartwheel:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dan Rowe on August 10, 2021, 10:05:27 PM
Chris, That is some nifty work I had to go back several pages to find the cad drawing to see these all up, so I grabbed the image for comparison.

(https://i.postimg.cc/fbZ7gqKv/Engine-Frames-View.jpg)

Cheers Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 10, 2021, 10:15:07 PM
Thanks Dan,  yup, still a lot to make on the frames. All the gridwork for the crosshead guides, inside corner fill blocks at the horizontal to vertical connections, and the mounting pads for all the lay shaft brackets and the K frames. Weeks worth to go!


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on August 11, 2021, 05:27:09 AM
Wow, Chris!  You've made a ton of progress!  I'm out for a week and you forge ahead like a runaway steam engine!  Those A-frames are looking great!

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on August 11, 2021, 12:54:09 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Enjoy the steam show! Don't forget to lock the beer fridge and spirit locker - when the cat's away shop elves will play!  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 11, 2021, 01:49:58 PM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Enjoy the steam show! Don't forget to lock the beer fridge and spirit locker - when the cat's away shop elves will play!  :Lol:
Some rainstorms moved through so we got a late start. I'm taking the elves along, the friend I am meeting there just bought a new Vette, so I will see if the elves can hotwire it...  :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on August 11, 2021, 06:16:54 PM
I can imagine the police radio broadcast now:  "All cars BOLO 1995 Corvette, male driver 10" tall, caucasian, brown hair, with hardhat. Passengers -  14 male passengers also 10" tall, two with burnt fingers. Possible destination - stores selling beer"  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 11, 2021, 09:13:21 PM
I can imagine the police radio broadcast now:  "All cars BOLO 1995 Corvette, male driver 10" tall, caucasian, brown hair, with hardhat. Passengers -  14 male passengers also 10" tall, two with burnt fingers. Possible destination - stores selling beer"  :Lol:
So THATS why they get away with it - the BOLO called for 10" tall guys, these elves are only 4" tall! (hey you in the Corvette, move along, we are looking for your older brothers!)   
 :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 11, 2021, 09:20:16 PM
Catching up on work on the engine frame brackets - most of this was done yesterday, I was off at the steam show today - uploading pics/video from that, will post some highlights next.
So, I cut out the blanks for the longer brackets on the sides of four of the frames, and milled in recesses to form the brackets.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sDqXtKqb/IMG-9902.jpg)
Here they are, two long, two short, two of the frames dont have these - they are to give better support for the different sized cylinders blocks on each set of frames.
(https://i.postimg.cc/tgt4nbJH/IMG-9903.jpg)
The put a smaller vise in the main one, at an angle to cut the sides of the brackets.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Cx81YkV5/IMG-9904.jpg)
Then notched the sides of four of the frames, on the opposite side as the single rails I added yesterday morning.
(https://i.postimg.cc/nzFcvW99/IMG-9905.jpg)
These notches hold the brackets, down below the level of the frame so that the bracket back wall will sit flush.

(https://i.postimg.cc/nzFcvW99/IMG-9905.jpg)
Here is the first one set in place - as you can see if you look close at the far end in upper right, it sits a little below flush, since the sides of the frames still need to be trimmed down to final dimension, and the notches took that into account.
(https://i.postimg.cc/HLCLLnp2/IMG-9906.jpg)
All four then were drilled/tapped for screws to hold them in place, like I did with the single rails previously.
Next I think will be to start on the inlays for the inside corners of the middle/top rails, so they will blend the sharp corners into curves, and also start on the cross bars for the crosshead guides.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 11, 2021, 09:31:37 PM
As promised, a few pictures from the Pageant Of Steam show today held down near Canandaigua Lake in western New York State. Always a fun show, they had 9 or 10 traction engines trundling around and running machines in the sawmill and shingle mill, threshing machines, bailers, etc. Also a LOT of farm tractors, hit and miss engines, some excavators playing in the dirt piles, a small model show in one of the buildings, and a lot of flea market vendors around the outside.
A few highlight photos:
They have a couple buildings with some stationary engines, including a corliss mill engine and a big generator
(https://i.postimg.cc/SKsmRMBc/IMG-2532.jpg)
This one is from a factory in Penn Yan I think he said, being assembled - its a twin Corliss

(https://i.postimg.cc/0y5sXS2h/IMG-2534.jpg)

Inside of a little steam launch - couple of the pics came out sideways, whoops! Thought I had editted that... Oh well, have a big gulp of Elfensteiner Beer and it will look right when you fall down!
(https://i.postimg.cc/T1r6Fqbv/IMG-2538.jpg)

Here is the launch
(https://i.postimg.cc/DyTFsHVv/IMG-2540.jpg)

Some of the traction engines, all US brands like Case
(https://i.postimg.cc/KjXb0sR5/IMG-2543.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/V601BcL6/IMG-2544.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/kXvCys9x/IMG-2545.jpg)

This one was running the sawmill
(https://i.postimg.cc/WprTdjHY/IMG-2548.jpg)

A small herd of cable operaterated excavators
(https://i.postimg.cc/wBGgmBzZ/IMG-2551.jpg)


And a video with some short highlight clips:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lR803eLYI9o
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on August 12, 2021, 12:09:28 AM
Great steam show pics! Thanks for posting them. TWO Corliss engines at one show! Never seen an oil burner on a boat's VFT boiler before - but a nifty idea. Cleaner than coal and safer than propane - and smells like the inside of a Kenworth engine's injector pump. The low slung Eclipse / Frick engine was nice to see. I used to see a few here in Ontario, but not in the last couple of years. You know I've looked and looked at them and never saw any "e" clips at all, not sure why they are called Eclipse....  :facepalm:  :cheers:

Terrific progress on the Holly frame details and brackets!   :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RReid on August 12, 2021, 02:31:57 AM
Looks like a great show! Lots of interesting old goodies. I like the dump truck just as much as the steam shovel!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 12, 2021, 02:54:11 AM
Looks like a great show! Lots of interesting old goodies. I like the dump truck just as much as the steam shovel!
That shovel is an early backhoe type, before they had the pivot at the bucket worked out, so the whole boom had to tip to dump. All I could think was that it's a good thing that there was no sunroof in the truck!! Very cool to watch them work.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 12, 2021, 02:56:01 AM
Great steam show pics! Thanks for posting them. TWO Corliss engines at one show! Never seen an oil burner on a boat's VFT boiler before - but a nifty idea. Cleaner than coal and safer than propane - and smells like the inside of a Kenworth engine's injector pump. The low slung Eclipse / Frick engine was nice to see. I used to see a few here in Ontario, but not in the last couple of years. You know I've looked and looked at them and never saw any "e" clips at all, not sure why they are called Eclipse....  :facepalm: :cheers:

Terrific progress on the Holly frame details and brackets!   :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
I didn't realize it was an oil burner, we were thinking it was a blower for starting the coal, but you are right! Very pretty launch.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on August 12, 2021, 05:22:05 AM
Thanks for the pics of the steam show.  That looks pretty cool.

So, they just turned the shovels loose in a field and let them dig holes all over?  That's pretty amazing.  Did they have to put the dirt back when they were done?

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 12, 2021, 01:16:28 PM
Thanks for the pics of the steam show.  That looks pretty cool.

So, they just turned the shovels loose in a field and let them dig holes all over?  That's pretty amazing.  Did they have to put the dirt back when they were done?

Kim
It looked like they had piles of dirt trucked in at some point, no holes down below grade. The steam club there owns the land, so I think they just leave the piles year to year.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: propforward on August 12, 2021, 02:04:59 PM
It's always good to see those old engines working and doing what they are supposed to. The annual steam threshers reunion at Rollag is coming up soon - might get along to that.

Your build continues to impress as always Chris!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 12, 2021, 04:10:05 PM
It's always good to see those old engines working and doing what they are supposed to. The annual steam threshers reunion at Rollag is coming up soon - might get along to that.

Your build continues to impress as always Chris!
That Rollag show is one I wish I could get to, on my bucket list, but am taking a number of other trips this summer and it is about 20 hours of drive time (excluding stops) from home, just too much given the other trips. If you go, take pictures and videos for us!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 12, 2021, 04:30:53 PM
This morning I got started on the little bits that form the fillets on the inside corners of the horizontal/vertical rail joints, like shown in this picture:
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZKsGj50L/Franme-Corners.jpg)
On the lower pump rails, I did this with some JB Weld and sanded in the radius. Worked, but I want to see if I can do this in metal instead. After some playing around in Fusion, I figured out the order of cuts that will make these pieces. Started with some 1" round bar, and bored in a hole to match the radius needed (a little under 1/4" radius). Then moved it to the rotary table on the mill, and started milling in flats that just touch the bore. First one at zero degrees
(https://i.postimg.cc/RZV0JFyQ/IMG-9907.jpg)
Then rotated the part 80.5 degrees, which matches the angle of the frame rails to each other, and milled another
(https://i.postimg.cc/gjV086G4/IMG-9908.jpg)
Then one at another 99.5, last one another 80.5 degrees. This forms two pairs of corners, one pair that will work on the larger angle, one pair that will work on the smaller angle
(https://i.postimg.cc/L4L5rGjf/IMG-9909.jpg)
Then raised the cutter .100, and milled another set of flats parallel to the first set - this forms the tenon that will fit in slots to be cut in the rails.
(https://i.postimg.cc/hP0jGxyt/IMG-9910.jpg)
Before continuing on, milled slots at the center to seperate the tenons - doing this later would be tough, easier when still on the end of the bar. The cutter was lowered back down the .100 to the original height.

(https://i.postimg.cc/R0WVGYMW/IMG-9911.jpg)
Then moved over and cut matching flats at the original height to shape in the flats on the other side of the tenon
(https://i.postimg.cc/WbVzjS7y/IMG-9912.jpg)
The parts were then sawn off the bar, leaving them a little wide. They will get trimmed to final width when the side rails are trimmed too. Here is one showing how it fits into the corner, until the mortise slots are cut I can't center it on the rails. Does it show that I'm a long-time woodworker in naming the joints?!
(https://i.postimg.cc/T373VxX8/IMG-9914.jpg)
This shows the two angles needed for the pairs of corners, the side rails are 80.5 degrees from each other, not 90, so two angles needed.
(https://i.postimg.cc/25gjtx62/IMG-9916.jpg)
Four corners down, lots more to make!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Jo on August 12, 2021, 04:42:37 PM
Nice use of the rotary table to give you the 99.5/80.5 degree angles Chris  :)

Jo
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on August 12, 2021, 06:45:10 PM
Very cool technique, Chris!
It will be interesting to see how it comes out.  Looks like it should be pretty nice.
Love the fabrication technique :)
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 12, 2021, 07:48:11 PM
Thanks Jo/Kim,  so far so good, after the first set the next one took about 20 minutes. After six sets, will need just the wider angle ones for the top rail corners, can get three of those per set.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 13, 2021, 02:15:37 PM
Working on more of the little corner pieces today, but a side question for you folks....

As I've mentioned previously, I got a copy of the blueprints for the Allis pumping engine in the Waterworks Museum in Boston back in June, and have been converting them to a 3D CAD model for them. The lower pump level is now done, and I'm looking to start on the engine beds and crankshaft next. While studying the crankshaft sheet, I spotted something that I have never seen before on the joint where the journal pin goes through the crank webs. Well, two things - the pins on the HP/LP cranks are smaller diameter than the IP pin, but thats just an interesting note.
The real interesting thing is how the pin gets held to the webs. It looks to be a press fit in one side, but the other has a bearing/box arrangement. At first I thought that it was just a way of connecting the two halves of the crankshaft for manufacture/transport, but on closer look it has a brass bearing and gaps for movement in it too. Here is a snippet of the IP crank web drawing:

(https://i.postimg.cc/MKjScRfg/Crank-Drag-Box2.jpg)
On the left side of the pin, it steps down from 14" to 13-7/8" to go through the web, I assume that is a press fit. All as I expected. On the right side though, it steps down more, and has a tapered sleeve and bolt/washer too. Again, at first I thought it might be a taper collet arrangement of some sort. But, elsewhere on the page is this diagram with a closeup view of it:
(https://i.postimg.cc/1t5S4jDK/Crank-Drag-Box.jpg)Here it shows the tapered piece is brass, which implies that it is more of a bearing? Also, that piece is not round on the outside, but square. Even more interesting is the gap shown by the red arrows - the box is 15" square, but the hole it goes in is 15" x 16", so there is a 1/2" gap either side in the one direction, no gap in the other direction. In the view on the right, the gap direction is along the length of the web, making me thing that it can slide in/out as needed, but is held close in the rotation direction. Is that to allow for any misalignment or flex in the main frame/bearings maybe?Also, the blue arrows show that there is a hex shapeto the internals of the box, I dont understand that part at all - is that another piece, or a cutout in the corners?I've never heard of the term 'drag box' before, searching for it gives results about joints on locomotive tender frames, but I have not found an explanation in that context that makes sense either.
So, anyone out there who can give a good explanation of what this feature is all about? Free shop gnomes to anyone who does.  Whats that? Oh, okay, free shop gnome capture and removal then!!

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on August 13, 2021, 04:38:47 PM
It looks to me that the drag box approach was intended to deal with tolerance stackup of the crankshaft and bearings/frame during assembly. It could take up any misalignment that may arise at final assembly. No matter how careful the crank pressing operation was, there could be slight errors of tolerance. In the frame, due to the massive size and the stationary pit installation, some settling and mass related flex is inevitable (and hard to predict at the design stage due to the many variables). The drag box could be intended to take up these errors at install time but also actively during running. Having a drag box providing some flex might be the difference between a workable assembly and a bound-up one, or the crank going over stress limits and cracking. That would be a costly disaster. Expansion and contraction as the engine heats and cools is another factor that could be addressed by the drag box approach. Yes, the cranks are a long way from the cylinders and heat has to travel across a couple of bearings, but eventually heat from the cylinders will reach the crank and later, the frames, as the engine runs and component temps rise. This will affect a fixed stroke crank as well as the bearing fits, however small the temp change and size change is. If the whole assembly doesn't have somewhere for the thermal growth or shrinkage to be taken up, breakages could result. Likely the designers of the Holly and other large engines were very aware of these issues and my hat is off to them for working through the issues - with no computers or calculators at all, just slide rules and a pencil - and solving them.

Small machines have their own stackup problems but generally are much easier to sort out than similar issues in massive assemblies.

Just my opinion about the purpose of the drag box approach - I do not know if this was the reason or if there were other reasons. :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on August 13, 2021, 04:46:49 PM
Forgot to mention a couple of thoughts about the angled cutouts in the big box bearing piece:

1. could have been intended to be reservoirs for grease or oil
2. could have been intended as a weight or a material cost reduction purpose (a heck of a lot of yellow metal in a 15 x 15" box!)
3. could have been intended to keep Holly shop elves/gnomes from sitting on the edges of the boxes while they were on the shop floor  :Lol:

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dan Rowe on August 13, 2021, 06:20:32 PM
Chris, very interesting feature. The brass bearing for the crankpin has square flanges and is octagonal in the center section, this is how I read the dotted lines indicated by the blue arrows.

Is this a joint for two halves of the crank or does each crankpin have a drag box?

Cheers Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 13, 2021, 06:57:32 PM
Chris, very interesting feature. The brass bearing for the crankpin has square flanges and is octagonal in the center section, this is how I read the dotted lines indicated by the blue arrows.

Is this a joint for two halves of the crank or does each crankpin have a drag box?

Cheers Dan
Hi Dan,
Each crank pin has a drag box on one of its connections to the pair of webs, the other web has the pin press fit in place. I didn't show the other two cranks, but they are the same setup but with a smaller diameter pin and smaller drag box. I don't know why the HP and LP would have smaller pins either, except that they dont join two halves like the center one does.

This is on the Allis engine design - on the Holly, which this build is about, has all three pins the same size, and pressed in both webs in the center one, though it does have one round end and one square end,

.....he says, as he goes and takes another look through the Holly plans to be sure.....
Now wait just an elf-scratchin minute! 

Just found a similar feature there, but just on the middle (IP) crank on the Holly since that is the only double-web crank on the Holly.  Just found these two pages (there are several hundred sheets on the Holly plan set)
This is the side of the crank web on the holly with the square hole - had seen that, but didnt see the one following it:
(https://i.postimg.cc/7YDQM255/Holly-Crank-1.jpg)

This one has the same type of box, they call it a Sliding Box - I hadn't realized what that was before:
(https://i.postimg.cc/FsZCPHSD/Holly-Crank2.jpg)
On this one for the Holly, the gap on the non-rotation axis is smaller, just 1/4" total rather than the full 1" on the Allis, but its the same basic shapes! The Holly one does not call out brass, or show any shims, like the Allis uses. The Holly one has the same bolt in the end as the Allis to hold the cap for keeping the box from sliding off.


Now that is quite interesting! I am leaning towards agreeing with you guys, it would help out the alignment/flexing issues, though the cranks these are part of are in the center of one of the engine beds, so things can't be that far out other than twisting moments. Twisting could be a large issue on engines this big, so that would be a concern I guess - maybe this helps with metal fatigue problems - the forces on pistons/cranks this large must be immense.

And as for the hex relief cuts in the Allis engine, that would both cut down on material and allow for easier movement in the opening, the Holly one does show oil channels in the box. Gee, wonder if they would let me borrow that giant wrench leaning on the machine and pull off some bolts....!

Thanks guys - just talking this through got me to look closer at more plan sheets, plus more opinions help out too!  Anyone else with knowledge of this feature please speak up as well!
Chris
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: ddmckee54 on August 13, 2021, 08:13:08 PM
OK, I think we agree that these block thingees, whatever Holly called them, started out their life as a square-ish lump of brass with a hole through the middle of it.  I've been wracking my brain, at least the 2 or 3 remaining working brain cells, trying to figure out why they took the chunks out of the corners - there HAD to be a good reason.  I have a theory, in your best Baldrick voice say it with me - "I have a cunning plan M'Lord!"

It was casting type black magic voodoo stuff - I think.  If you look at the plan, the wall thickness through the cut-out section of that block is pretty consistent.  It might have been to keep from getting voids in those areas as the casting cooled and the liquid brass froze.  I doubt that it was to use less brass in the casting, if you were making a gazillion of these engines then yeah you'd want to save the pennies and use less brass.  But in the onesy-twosy quantities that they made these engines they'd just pass the extra expense along to the customer - somehow.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 13, 2021, 08:18:42 PM

OK, I think we agree that these block thingees, whatever Holly called them, started out their life as a square-ish lump of brass with a hole through the middle of it.  I've been wracking my brain, at least the 2 or 3 remaining working brain cells, trying to figure out why they took the chunks out of the corners - there HAD to be a good reason.  I have a theory, in your best Baldrick voice say it with me - "I have a cunning plan M'Lord!"

It was casting type black magic voodoo stuff - I think.  If you look at the plan, the wall thickness through the cut-out section of that block is pretty consistent.  It might have been to keep from getting voids in those areas as the casting cooled and the liquid brass froze.  I doubt that it was to use less brass in the casting, if you were making a gazillion of these engines then yeah you'd want to save the pennies and use less brass.  But in the onesy-twosy quantities that they made these engines they'd just pass the extra expense along to the customer - somehow.

Don


Good thinking Baldrick!!   :lolb:  Been a long time since I saw that show, but it sticks with you like Baldrick's smell...   :ROFL:


That does make sense, thanks!

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on August 13, 2021, 09:05:13 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 13, 2021, 09:13:44 PM
And after a very nice lunch out with friends and some nap/read time on the porch, I got the last of the little inside-corner filler pieces milled out. Saved making a batch from what I thought since I could get four of the wider-angle ones plus a little waste rather than the three per batch than I was thinking ahead of time. Here are the two piles, 12 of the narrow-angle ones for on top of the middle cross rail, and 24 of the wider angle ones for below the middle and top cross bars:
(https://i.postimg.cc/zG9g1nZ7/IMG-9922.jpg)
Next up would appear to be to make the crosshead guide rails and their supports, which go between all four rails at the top opening, like in the picture I used to show the inside corners - just finished the bits at the red arrows, time to make the grid between them:

(https://i.postimg.cc/ZKsGj50L/Frame-Corners.jpg)
They will also have tabs sticking out to slot into the rails. Once they are done there will be a lot of assembly work, followed by thinning the rails and adding those mounting pads around the edges and all the mounting holes there and in the top rail. May have the engine frames all done by September. Or in September.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dan Rowe on August 13, 2021, 10:36:59 PM
Ah more information......

I am assuming the same connecting rod is connecting the steam piston and the water piston so how does it connect to the pin?

How can the big end conrod bearing be changed? I spotted a split crankshaft engine made to use roller bearings the split was to be able to get the bearings on. So could the sliding box be an access point for the conrod bearing?

Cheers Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 14, 2021, 12:21:14 AM
Ah more information......

I am assuming the same connecting rod is connecting the steam piston and the water piston so how does it connect to the pin?

How can the big end conrod bearing be changed? I spotted a split crankshaft engine made to use roller bearings the split was to be able to get the bearings on. So could the sliding box be an access point for the conrod bearing?

Cheers Dan
Hi Dan,
The water piston/plungers on the pumps at the bottom have four rods coming up from big plates on top of the plungers - those rods come up around the sides of the cranks and connect to arms coming off the crossheads, so the pump plunger itself does not need a crosshead, the motion is kept vertical by the rods on the upper crosshead.

The bottom end of the conrod is split, with a bolt-on lower end cap so the split bearing can be changed out that way (the plans show Babbit bearing liners).  The conrod/crank setup is pretty typical of any big steam engine, the only real change is that connection to the crosshead for the plungers, pretty clever. On both engines, they even have provision for a small water/air pump down at the bottom that connects to one of the pump plungers (my term plungers, I dont know what they call them, they are essentially the same as a hand-operated ram pump like we use for testing boilers, except a LOT bigger and they have 1200 to 1400 check valves!
That sliding box looks like it was just there for the crankshaft motion/alignment, though a lot of that is a guess. The other end of the crank pin is fixed into the other web, appears to be a one-time press fit, no keys or bolts over on that side is shown. On the Holly engine, the two end cylinders have one-sided cranks, on the Allis they are all two-sided, though the second side is a lot lighter and the end of the crankshaft there is thinner. It looks like they only did that since there is another offset crank off each end that drives the lay shaft up above for the valves. On the Holly the lay shaft has a pair of bevel gear sets to drive it.
I'm going to be back at the waterworks museum in Boston in a couple weeks to meet with the director again and tour the engines up close/on the catwalks, will be getting a lot more pictures then of the pump level and the upper machine levels. Great working with them, I get access to the plans and machines, they are learning a lot about steam engines and pumps in return plus I am making them diagrams and animations - a win/win for all.
For better view of how things connect up, here is a picture from the CAD version of the relevant parts of the Holly engine (have not gotten up to the crankshaft on the Allis drawings yet). Note that I do not have the conrods/pistons all linked up to the proper positions on the crankshaft yet, that will come later when I get a chance to animate the movements, all are at one level at the moment, but you can see the relationships better than my rambling words up above!

(https://i.postimg.cc/9MVzm2mg/Pump-Connections.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dan Rowe on August 14, 2021, 02:17:08 PM
Chris, I was a Marine Engineer and worked on 900mm bore Sulzer engines which are the closest thing to a large steam engine built today. I have looked at lots of books on large engines and that is a feature that I have never seen.

The main difference between this type of engine and a ships engine is the starting load and the fact that not much load or no load is used on the end of the shaft. All the main load is in the center of the shaft. My guess is the big pin you posted on the Alias engine is in the center of the crank so it has to share some of the load from the other two pistons.

I am not buying the alignment theory as lots of large engines were built without this feature.

Cheers Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 14, 2021, 02:30:52 PM
Chris, I was a Marine Engineer and worked on 900mm bore Sulzer engines which are the closest thing to a large steam engine built today. I have looked at lots of books on large engines and that is a feature that I have never seen.

The main difference between this type of engine and a ships engine is the starting load and the fact that not much load or no load is used on the end of the shaft. All the main load is in the center of the shaft. My guess is the big pin you posted on the Alias engine is in the center of the crank so it has to share some of the load from the other two pistons.

I am not buying the alignment theory as lots of large engines were built without this feature.

Cheers Dan
Hi Dan,


This feature really has be puzzled. On the Allis engine they have it on all three cranks. On the Holly the two end cranks are one side webs, so no box joint there.  I spent a lot of time last night doing patent searches, could not find anything related to it.
After more thought I am discounting alignment too, the cranks are in the middle of each engine bed, and the beds could be aligned to each other.
Hmmmm...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dan Rowe on August 14, 2021, 03:27:47 PM
the beds could be aligned to each other.

Chris, the beds have to be aligned!!

I have taken crankshaft deflection readings on a Sulzer. There is a witness mark on the crank webs to locate a dial indicator. The crank is rotated so the marks just clear the conrod and the indicator is attached and the crank is rotated away from the rod until the indicator is almost touching the other side of the rod. The readings are compared to the readings taken when the engine was erected. This checks how much the crankshaft has bent in service.

I think the box joint was to keep the crankshaft from twisting or bending. My guess is that if a solid crankshaft was used it would have to be even larger to accommodate the forces of the pump plungers.

Cheers Dan

Edit: here is a Sulzer a bit larger than the ones I worked on:
https://www.autoblog.com/photos/w-rtsil-sulzer-rta96-c/#slide-1755060
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 14, 2021, 04:01:36 PM
the beds could be aligned to each other.

Chris, the beds have to be aligned!!

I have taken crankshaft deflection readings on a Sulzer. There is a witness mark on the crank webs to locate a dial indicator. The crank is rotated so the marks just clear the conrod and the indicator is attached and the crank is rotated away from the rod until the indicator is almost touching the other side of the rod. The readings are compared to the readings taken when the engine was erected. This checks how much the crankshaft has bent in service.

I think the box joint was to keep the crankshaft from twisting or bending. My guess is that if a solid crankshaft was used it would have to be even larger to accommodate the forces of the pump plungers.

Cheers Dan

Edit: here is a Sulzer a bit larger than the ones I worked on:
https://www.autoblog.com/photos/w-rtsil-sulzer-rta96-c/#slide-1755060 (https://www.autoblog.com/photos/w-rtsil-sulzer-rta96-c/#slide-1755060)
Thanks Dan!  That Sulzer is a beast!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 14, 2021, 07:06:09 PM
This morning I worked out in the CAD app the dimensions for a silver-soldering jig for the crosshead guide parts. Need to make six of them, so well worth the time to make up a jig. The weather today is SO nice compared to the high heat this past week, so rest of the day is outdoors!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 16, 2021, 03:39:53 PM
The last two days have been used to get the jig and bar stock ready for the crosshead guides that go in each of the engine frames. Here is the jig for silver soldering plus the rough cut bars for the guides:
(https://i.postimg.cc/B6k4x7nf/IMG-9924.jpg)
The taller posts will hold the 1/2" wide bars on edge at top/bottom/sides, and the shorter posts along the sides will have the narrow bars laying flat on them, held in the middle of the 1/2" bars to form a T shape. The screws along the bottom and sides will hold things together for soldering - will show pictures of that once the bars are trimmed to length. Bunch of time in the jig, but the bars are too thin to use screws to hold them together for soldering, and this setup should give repeatable results. I cut the large holes in the back of the jig to let the torch flame pass through, keeping the jig from getting quite as hot - the bars are thin, so they should get up to temperature quickly.


Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on August 16, 2021, 04:25:14 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 16, 2021, 10:19:06 PM
Thanks CNR - don't overdose on the popcorn, throw in some peanuts too!   :Lol:

Got the bars prepped for soldering, took them all to length, doing them all ganged up a size at a time. Clamped them in the vise, trimmed the ends square, then grabbed the ends with a small clamp to hold them together to flip them around and trim the other end to length. For the shorter pieces, that means using two clamps - one to get them out of the vise, attach the other clamp to the un-cut end, remove the first clamp, and put them in the vise using the second clamp.
(https://i.postimg.cc/wTVj1psS/IMG-9925.jpg)
and a few shots showing the first set all held in the soldering fixture - two long/wide bars for the crosshead guides, two long/narrow bars for the T shape next to them, a short bar at the top and a long bar for the bottom.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Y2Q9wg22/IMG-9926.jpg)
The narrow bars are held up in place so they land in the center of the wide bars, a view at the top
(https://i.postimg.cc/TYGP2whV/IMG-9927.jpg)
and from the bottom end
(https://i.postimg.cc/Hkks5hwj/IMG-9928.jpg)
Tomorrow I'll set up the torch outside and get started silver soldering them all together....
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on August 17, 2021, 12:33:03 AM
Soldering jig looks great!   :cheers:

I have just dispatched 2 of my peskiest shop gnomes in a very rusted 1961 Ford Falcon with iffy piston rings , 17 litres of oil, and 147 pounds of roasted peanuts. Rochester or bust, they said. Could mean they are looking for a strip club rather than Rochester, or will be by with your peanuts in a few days (or months, in that car)  :cheers:

PS do keep the gnomes  if when they arrive........ :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 17, 2021, 01:08:48 AM
Soldering jig looks great!   :cheers:

I have just dispatched 2 of my peskiest shop gnomes in a very rusted 1961 Ford Falcon with iffy piston rings , 17 litres of oil, and 147 pounds of roasted peanuts. Rochester or bust, they said. Could mean they are looking for a strip club rather than Rochester, or will be by with your peanuts in a few days (or months, in that car)  :cheers:

PS do keep the gnomes  if when they arrive........ :Lol:


 :Lol:


Good thing you told them Rochester.  You didn't say which one, the one in Minnesota, the one in New Hampshire, New York...  Knowing gnomes, they are building up speed for the ramp in Nova Scotia aiming for the one in the UK since the beer is better there!!   :LittleDevil:    :ROFL:


If they DO make it here, which is not IN Rochester but outside it, at least I have bags of fresh mint chocolate chip cookies to convert them to Shop Elves, and put them to work!   :LickLips:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Don1966 on August 17, 2021, 01:17:18 AM
Very well thought out jig Dog, you never cease to amaze me…….. :Love:

 :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 17, 2021, 01:49:47 AM
Very well thought out jig Dog, you never cease to amaze me…….. :Love:

 :drinking-41:
Don
Thanks Don - we'll see how well it holds up to the torch!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: MJM460 on August 17, 2021, 04:26:44 AM
Hi Chris, a very ingenious jig for a complex part.  Do you have to use centre pop marks or something similar in the edge of the narrow strips to establish the necessary gap for the silver solder?

Looking forward to seeing how it performs.

With your upcoming visit to the full size engines, I had better hurry up and put together that post on the pulsation dampeners.  To put some pressure on myself, look for it in the next couple of days.

Amazing how time moves in lockdown.

MJM460

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 17, 2021, 01:08:57 PM
Hi Chris, a very ingenious jig for a complex part.  Do you have to use centre pop marks or something similar in the edge of the narrow strips to establish the necessary gap for the silver solder?

Looking forward to seeing how it performs.

With your upcoming visit to the full size engines, I had better hurry up and put together that post on the pulsation dampeners.  To put some pressure on myself, look for it in the next couple of days.

Amazing how time moves in lockdown.

MJM460
Hi MJM, for the joints where the edges of the raw bar stock edges butt up against another bar, milled surface or not, the raw edges have enough of a radius and are uneven enough along the length that the solder has a place to wick to. For places like the ends, a center punch mark will give the tiny gap needed, like you say. Too tight a joint wont let the solder wick in, and it just pools at the surface of the joint, better to have it flow in. The narrow strips I am using are tool steel bars, with rolled-out shapes that are not hugely precise (tiny-ly precise?) The larger flat bars are ground and the ends are milled, so they fit tight without the center marks.

Looking forward to the dampener discussion. We made miniature versions in our inkjet printers to handle the pulsations in the ink lines from the print head whizzing back and forth with a few gees of acceleration - just the ink liquid in the small feed lines was enough to give large pulsation forces on a large format printer and force ink out or air in the nozzle plates, even though the nozzles were micron sized! On the giant water pumps, scale that up to a 48" diameter water pipe with pump chambers moving hundreds of gallons every few seconds - could have been a huge water hammer effect.  I'm going to be visiting the museum in Boston again soon, going over the Allis engine/pumps with the director of the museum - he is looking forward to learning more, and I get an up-close look at the engines - great for both of us!
Chris
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 17, 2021, 03:04:50 PM
This morning I set up the torch out in the end of the garage, and so far have the first two crosshead guide frames soldered, second one is cooling. Here is the first before it started its swim in a bowl of vinegar to clean up the flux:
(https://i.postimg.cc/14x0vRVH/IMG-9930.jpg)
While parts are colling enough to pull from the jig, I have started milling the slots for those little inside-corner pieces I made several days ago. After the frames are re-assembled for good, these bits can be loctited in place.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sxG9PGxx/IMG-9929.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on August 17, 2021, 04:25:42 PM
Looks like your soldering jig did the trick!  I was worried about how much heat that jig would soak up, but looks like you handled it just fine!
Well done, Chris!
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on August 17, 2021, 04:57:31 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: (insert gif for 3 bags of peanuts here)   :Lol:

Glad the soldering jig worked well.  :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 17, 2021, 05:22:02 PM
So far so good on the jig, just soldered number 5. The frame parts are a lot thinner than the jig parts so the get up to temp quick, using a medium size tip on the torch with about a 3/4" wide flame. I alternate aim side to side while working my way down the length, melting solder as I go, heating from inside the center gap through the metal. After last one is done the jig will join the frames in the pickle, its getting pretty dirty.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 17, 2021, 11:10:49 PM
Success on the crosshead guides - got all six soldered and cleaned up:
(https://i.postimg.cc/vTL8KMPy/IMG-9933.jpg)
Soaking the jig in the vinegar did it a lot of good too, the screws move freely again, the flux and soot had gummed them up pretty tight by the last one.
(https://i.postimg.cc/KcnYjrmW/IMG-9935.jpg)
So, need to do a notch in the underside of the top rails for the crosshead top cap to fit into, and drill for some mounting screws to hold the guides into the frames. Also need to fit the little corner pieces and get them loctited in place, that will be some fiddly work. After all that is done, and the frames all assembled, will take the light cuts on the faces of the A's to get them to final thickness, which will get rid of the gaps caused by the rounded corners of the square bar stock, and trim the corner pieces to be flush too - right now they hang over slightly. Sounds like the rest of the week is fiddly work, wonder if the elves can dance to fiddle music!  (beat you to that one CNR!! )
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steamer on August 18, 2021, 02:16:02 AM
That's cranking out some work there friend!...BIG engine, on a little mill/lathe!

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: MJM460 on August 18, 2021, 10:46:18 AM
Hi Chris, I expect that hundreds of gallons each few seconds and micron size drops every microsecond might both involve similar accelerations.  However, accelerations due to the print head movements might look quite different to the near sinusoidal motion of the pump plunger.

I expect to post the first section of the pulsation topic later this evening.  It’s far too long for a single post.

Good result on that soldering. 

MJM460

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on August 18, 2021, 12:49:55 PM
Re 'fiddly work' - yes, I concede that my thunder has been stole..... :Lol:

Great looking crosshead guide parts.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 18, 2021, 07:06:36 PM
Don't worry CNR, plenty more chances coming up, I am sure!   :Lol:

I've gotten a good start on the fiddly bits, have 24 of the 36 inside corner pieces fettled and attached, and also the crosshead guides drilled for screws at the bottom plus milled the recesses for the top plates of the guides to fit into the frame top rails. Next up is to lay out and drill the screw holes at the top ends.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZqK57jDQ/IMG-9936.jpg)
They are looking almost done, but I'm only maybe 3/4 done on the frames - Need to make the horizontal braces halfway up the crosshead guides, all the cylinder mounting holes in the top rails to go in, all the mounting plates and holes for the lay shafts and K-frames between the engine frames too, plus thinning the frames.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dan Rowe on August 18, 2021, 08:48:24 PM
Oh man I wish my parts looked that good when they are 3/4 the way done.  :ThumbsUp:

Those are really looking like the real deal.

Cheers Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on August 19, 2021, 12:12:43 AM
Those are looking great, Chris! :popcorn: :popcorn:

They are some pretty complex frame pieces, and all times 6!  You don't pick simple projects, do you, Chris!

Kim

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 19, 2021, 12:22:52 AM
Thanks guys!

This engine didn't look quite so complex when I first saw it, just enormous! This afternoon I got the screw holes all drilled to attach the guide frames, but before I attach them for good I want to lay out and drill/tap the holes in the top horizontal rails that will be used to bolt down the cylinder blocks. Each pair of frames has a different hole pattern since each cylinder is a different size with a different base/valve/piping layout. While going through the LP one, I noticed that the pattern didn't look quite right, and it wasn't! The spacing of the bottom rail on the cylinder was transcribed from the paper blueprints wrong - fixed that right away.

A simpler project day is coming up, a cousin of mine has restored a bunch of old ChrisCraft wood powerboats over the years, and has some levers and such that have broken, no luck finding replacement ones (some are replacements from 30 years ago, that themselves broke). So, I am going to machine out some replacements from solid stainless, with silver soldered joints as needed, and probably will nickel plate them unless he finds a local chome shop that will do them. Pics as those come up, we are working out a day for him to come up and bring the parts and take the shop/museum tour.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RReid on August 19, 2021, 12:48:21 AM
Quote
This engine didn't look quite so complex when I first saw it,
Well it sure looked complex to me, when I saw your early introductory pictures!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Don1966 on August 19, 2021, 04:35:41 AM
 :Love:


 :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Roger B on August 19, 2021, 06:44:20 PM
So much fine fabrication  :praise2:  :praise2: As ever I struggle to keep up  :wine1:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 19, 2021, 06:57:38 PM
Thanks guys!  I've been plugging away on the frame parts, got the cylinder mount holes all drilled and tapped, working on the last of the corner inserts.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 20, 2021, 05:25:33 PM
All the corner inserts went in yesterday, now have started the facing passes on the frames to get them to final thickness. This also cleans up the little gaps at the edges where the bar stock had rounded corners.
(https://i.postimg.cc/K884bn2M/IMG-9939.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steam guy willy on August 21, 2021, 02:31:13 AM
Hi Chris , good progress with the 'castings' and I love the no compromise way you go about making the parts with all the jigs and forethought you do  :) :)

Willy
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 21, 2021, 01:31:37 PM
Thanks Willy! This one has had me quite busy thinking how to hold/shape things as I go!

Back on the crankshaft joints on the Allis and Holly engines, I did come across this picture showing the connection on the HP cylinder crank on the Allis engine, you can see the square hole and the gaps at the inner/outer ends quite clearly. Also neat to see the way they put the lubricator resevoir on the side of the con-rod, just visible at the top/center of the picture with the lines running down to the bearings.

(https://i.postimg.cc/9FC307pX/IMG-2336.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: kvom on August 21, 2021, 02:25:43 PM
How often did they shut down each of the engines?  Filling those oilers under motion would be tricky.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 21, 2021, 02:34:16 PM
How often did they shut down each of the engines?  Filling those oilers under motion would be tricky.
Yeah, a good trick to play on the new apprentice!  Since they were pumping to a reservoir or water tower, they could shut down periodically.  I took a bunch of pictures when I was there, but now I realize how much I missed, lot more angles to photograph next visit.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dan Rowe on August 21, 2021, 02:35:14 PM
Back on the crankshaft joints on the Allis and Holly engines, I did come across this picture showing the connection on the HP cylinder crank on the Allis engine, you can see the square hole and the gaps at the inner/outer ends quite clearly.

Chris, Nice photo I have to remind myself that the square brass part is 15" square while looking at it. I have been thinking about this and there is a big difference between this type of large engine and large ships engines either steam or diesel that I did not think of.

Large ship engines are built on a bedplate that is a casting or a series of castings bolted together. This gives a very strong and rigid way to attach the main crankshaft bearings. The modern Sulzer engines have a welded bedplate but it is just as strong and rigid.

There are three separate bedplates for the Holly engine and then another three bedplates supported by the lower A-frames that have the main crankshaft bearings. Now, this might be strong but the crankshaft forces have a much longer moment arm or lever to the fixed bedplates.

I think the crankshaft would have to be much stiffer to resist deflection without the drag box which makes the crankshaft two pieces so the bending force is not transmitted through the box joint.

Cheers Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steamer on August 21, 2021, 02:46:26 PM
Chris,   Are you near this engine?     Great photo's ....The build is just epic....that's a big engine on those tools.

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on August 21, 2021, 02:55:47 PM
Great progress Chris, and an interesting pic of the drag box on the Allis.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on August 21, 2021, 02:57:55 PM
...."square hole and the gaps at the inner/outer ends quite clearly"..... :insane:......

Could these be square covers over round pin/bush holes?

Loose square pegs in square holes would be non-rotational or flog  :facepalm: sh*t out of the rotating clearance elements in pretty short time

Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dan Rowe on August 21, 2021, 03:06:16 PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/9FC307pX/IMG-2336.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/MKjScRfg/Crank-Drag-Box2.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/1t5S4jDK/Crank-Drag-Box.jpg)
So, anyone out there who can give a good explanation of what this feature is all about? Free shop gnomes to anyone who does.  Whats that? Oh, okay, free shop gnome capture and removal then!!

Derek here are the drawings to go with the photo.

Cheers Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 21, 2021, 03:29:59 PM
Chris,   Are you near this engine?     Great photo's ....The build is just epic....that's a big engine on those tools.

Dave
For the Holly engine in Buffalo, I'm only an hour away. Normally they had arranged for tours open to the public once a year. But, covid ended that last year, and since then the man who arranged things with the water authority (who own the place) has passed away, so they are not sure what will happen next time we are not in pandemic situation. I've been in contact with the guy who got me the plans, and he will let me know next time there is an open house. So far I've only been able to get in to se the Holly engines once.  I was really lucky on the Marion shovel, that is only 15 minutes away. Once I knew it was there, at least!


For the Boston, Allis, engine, near-ish - its a six hour drive from home to Boston. I have a couple more trips to Maine ( two states north of Boston) this summer/fall, and I have arranged with the museum director to stop in on my next trip by to visit the engine again, he is going to take me down to the pump level and up the top catwalks too, which will be an amazing treat. Part sightseeing for me, part tutorial on steam engines for him, we both win.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 21, 2021, 03:33:26 PM
Back on the crankshaft joints on the Allis and Holly engines, I did come across this picture showing the connection on the HP cylinder crank on the Allis engine, you can see the square hole and the gaps at the inner/outer ends quite clearly.

Chris, Nice photo I have to remind myself that the square brass part is 15" square while looking at it. I have been thinking about this and there is a big difference between this type of large engine and large ships engines either steam or diesel that I did not think of.

Large ship engines are built on a bedplate that is a casting or a series of castings bolted together. This gives a very strong and rigid way to attach the main crankshaft bearings. The modern Sulzer engines have a welded bedplate but it is just as strong and rigid.

There are three separate bedplates for the Holly engine and then another three bedplates supported by the lower A-frames that have the main crankshaft bearings. Now, this might be strong but the crankshaft forces have a much longer moment arm or lever to the fixed bedplates.

I think the crankshaft would have to be much stiffer to resist deflection without the drag box which makes the crankshaft two pieces so the bending force is not transmitted through the box joint.

Cheers Dan
Giving the joints some compliance without metal fatigue is about the only thing that makes sense to me too.
For clarity, the picture I have of that joint is of the HP crank, which is smaller than the IP crank in the middle. On the end cranks, the inset square is only 6" x 6.5" across, and the pin is smaller too. They would be open cranks on the ends, but they have a smaller cranks outboard of both the end pistons that drive the lay shaft. The drawing I posted was for the center crank with the 15" box.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 21, 2021, 03:35:22 PM
...."square hole and the gaps at the inner/outer ends quite clearly"..... :insane: ......

Could these be square covers over round pin/bush holes?

Loose square pegs in square holes would be non-rotational or flog  :facepalm: sh*t out of the rotating clearance elements in pretty short time

Derek
No - see the drawings in the post three posts back that Dan re-showed from a post I did last week - it shows the internals of the joint, on one half of the crank web set its definitely a seperate moveable piece, with gaps in the inner/outer faces so it can move. That is for the Allis engine, and I have found the same setup in the Holly engine too. The box fits snug in the rotation direction, but is loose in the other direction, so it does not bounce like a loose dog clutch could.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 21, 2021, 06:15:51 PM
Okey dokey - all of the faces of the frames and the crosshead guides have been trimmed to final thickness - not a lot to take off, but it does change the appearance to not have the cross section be square anymore.
(https://i.postimg.cc/pT0gS24N/IMG-9940.jpg)
So, looks like all the frames are done, right.  NOPE! Next up will be the horizontal braces that go from the frame side rails to the middle of the crosshead guides. These braces have a '+' shaped cross section. To start, I need to make up a length of + shaped rail from some 3/8" square bar. I didn't happen to have any already stress relieved 3/8" square handy, so I am milling the shape out about 1" at a time, alternating corners, to eliminate the tendancy for bar stock to banana-ize as one side is milled away. Using a small end mill, set to depth of cut, am cutting on the back corner every pass, rotating the bar to alternate corners between cuts. Here it is after one set of passes all the way around:
(https://i.postimg.cc/RhNj5kxW/IMG-9941.jpg)
and after almost three sets of passes
(https://i.postimg.cc/tJw8XB92/IMG-9942.jpg)
Four more sets of passes and I'll have enough bar for all the cross (pun) braces - they look pretty short, but 12 braces 1/2" long plu cutting room add up.
I've also been looking at the pads for the other brackets and horizontal frame pieces, and have worked out how those will be added once these braces are in....
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 21, 2021, 08:05:03 PM
So, today's shop time is brought to you by the '+' symbol, though this manufacturing method is subtractive rather than additive, the end result adds up to the same thing....    :Lol:
Got the full bar taken down to shape...
(https://i.postimg.cc/63LmsBP6/IMG-9944.jpg)
Here the end of it is held up next to where each short length will go on the frames, the very end will need to be notched to fit over the center web bar, and the other end cut at an angle to fit against the side rail. Making up a dozen of those will get a bit tedious, but should not take too long. I hope!  I was thinking of using a 1/16" end mill for the slots in the end, but now am thinking that setting up a slitting saw will be quicker per cut.... Have to make a test.

(https://i.postimg.cc/0QqBHzcH/IMG-9943.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RReid on August 21, 2021, 08:19:31 PM
++++ :ThumbsUp: ++++
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 21, 2021, 10:35:23 PM
Did some digging through the toolbox drawers and found a perfect little saw blade, 1/16" thick like the crosshead side bars. Did a test cut with it on the end of the + bar, cuts nice and smooth. Always feel nervous with an exposed circular saw blad like this, even a small one, more so than an end mill for whatever reason. Anyway, cuts the brass like butter, nice clean edges.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Jn5KtPMR/IMG-9946.jpg)
test fit with a bit of the bar stock - loose fit but good enough!
(https://i.postimg.cc/Wzp8Zg1g/IMG-9945.jpg)
Holding it like that in the vise makes for a very repeatable setup for height, holding one of the edges sticking out is very secure. Think I'll cut ends this this, hand cut the length and leave it slightly long, then set up an angle block to trim them all the proper length and angle.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steamer on August 21, 2021, 11:31:43 PM
Chris,   Are you near this engine?     Great photo's ....The build is just epic....that's a big engine on those tools.

Dave
For the Holly engine in Buffalo, I'm only an hour away. Normally they had arranged for tours open to the public once a year. But, covid ended that last year, and since then the man who arranged things with the water authority (who own the place) has passed away, so they are not sure what will happen next time we are not in pandemic situation. I've been in contact with the guy who got me the plans, and he will let me know next time there is an open house. So far I've only been able to get in to se the Holly engines once.  I was really lucky on the Marion shovel, that is only 15 minutes away. Once I knew it was there, at least!


For the Boston, Allis, engine, near-ish - its a six hour drive from home to Boston. I have a couple more trips to Maine ( two states north of Boston) this summer/fall, and I have arranged with the museum director to stop in on my next trip by to visit the engine again, he is going to take me down to the pump level and up the top catwalks too, which will be an amazing treat. Part sightseeing for me, part tutorial on steam engines for him, we both win.

Next time you're coming down Rt 2 east on your way there....as long as the pandemic is "under control" I'd be glad to come with you!


Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on August 21, 2021, 11:58:40 PM
Square pegs in square holes ... certainly unique  :headscratch:

......do the 2" UN hex head bolts hold spigoted spacers which in turn hold these two x 4" squarish x 15"/16" long  brass blocks have  :hammerbash: and what sort of end clearance in the 16" cavity?

Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dan Rowe on August 22, 2021, 12:17:42 AM
Derek the 2" bolt secures a round plate to the crankpin. This plate holds the 15" square brass bearing in place. the section you are pointing at is a 4" wide sections cut from the center of the brass block cut at a 45 degree angle so the center of the brass block is an octagon.

Cheers Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 22, 2021, 01:05:39 AM
Hey all,
I just got a PM from a new member here on the forum, with a link to this page from October 1900 issue of Steam Engineering: A Practical Journal for the Power Plant, Volume 2 on Google Books:

(https://i.postimg.cc/Y9t21CKQ/Drag-Box-Explanation.jpg)
This is in a Questions and Answers section of that publication, here is a link to the full issue:
https://books.google.com/books?id=hYnmAAAAMAAJ&pg=PP11&lpg=PP11&dq=%22drag+box%22+steam+pump&source=bl&ots=6yJJyklE-J&sig=ACfU3U2GMk-xihwFCm6JOFfboiU2t30V3g&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwilhI20n8PyAhWXQs0KHXh5CkoQ6AF6BAgrEAM#v=onepage&q=%22drag%20box%22%20steam%20pump&f=false


A great find - many thanks to that forum member! Please chime in and introduce yourself, its a great group.   :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steamer on August 22, 2021, 01:10:17 AM
That's cool!   Engine with a U joint in the middle
sorta

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 22, 2021, 01:21:12 AM
Another page from that same book, this time about force chambers, which we have been discussing as well...
(https://i.postimg.cc/fTyccwM4/Force-Chamber-Book.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 22, 2021, 01:21:45 AM
That's cool!   Engine with a U joint in the middle
sorta

Dave
Well, sorta, with a VERY small travel!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dan Rowe on August 22, 2021, 01:27:27 AM
Nice find thanks to the gent who found it.

Speaking of hot bearings on vintage large engines.... well the only way to detect the bearing temperature on the engine was to touch the bearing!!! Notice the missing paint on the vertical rail support near the main bearing, just where you would hang on to touch the bearing.

The big end bearing of the conrod was checked by touching it as it passed by to check for a hot bearing. Needless to say, this was somewhat dangerous and more than one engineer was missing a finger or two.

Cheers Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 22, 2021, 01:47:16 AM
Nice find thanks to the gent who found it.

Speaking of hot bearings on vintage large engines.... well the only way to detect the bearing temperature on the engine was to touch the bearing!!! Notice the missing paint on the vertical rail support near the main bearing, just where you would hang on to touch the bearing.

The big end bearing of the conrod was checked by touching it as it passed by to check for a hot bearing. Needless to say, this was somewhat dangerous and more than one engineer was missing a finger or two.

Cheers Dan
Lets see, grab railing, lean over, touch bearing, burn hand, grab that hand with other one, losing grip on railing, fall into the crankshaft....   :o
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dan Rowe on August 22, 2021, 02:01:34 AM
Chris, yes not a good outcome. This was a common practice on ships so the extra challenge of the deck moving.

I had one Chief that was missing both his middle fingers on one hand. He was not the sharpest knife in the drawer he told me to pack a petcock because it was leaking.....

Cheers Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on August 22, 2021, 02:51:35 AM
Great that the info on the drag boxes and the pulse damper/ force chambers came to light. Many thanks to the member that sent it to Chris, and to Chris for posting!  :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 22, 2021, 03:01:59 PM
That little saw made quick work of trimming the + bar to length too. I hacksaw cut the full bar to pieces a little longer than needed for pairs of the finished pieces, slit the ends to fit over the guide rails, then set up the mini vise at an angle to trim the bars to length and cut the angle in - the bars slid into the side of the vise till they touched bottom of the jaws, so the position was repeatable.
Partway through a cut
(https://i.postimg.cc/6pghmpdZ/IMG-9949.jpg)
finished cut
(https://i.postimg.cc/dtW6GB34/IMG-9947.jpg)
and two of them slipped into place on a frame - will use a drop of loctite 638 on each to hold them in place, these are not under tension so they just need a little glue to hold them in place. In the picture, they are just slipped on, so the angles are not even.
(https://i.postimg.cc/g2nDsZ6d/IMG-9948.jpg)
After lunch I'll get them glued in, and can start cutting down stock for all the mounting pads that go on the faces of the frames for the lay shaft and K-frame brackets.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on August 22, 2021, 04:02:04 PM
Parts are looking great Chris. Hard to b eat the slitting saw for that sort of job - but you are right, you have to watch your fingers! I usually throw a thick rag around the teeth of mine if I have fingers near the teeth to move the stock. Shop time is scarce enough without using some time for first aid / leakage stopping!  :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 22, 2021, 07:22:07 PM
Got a start on the pads that will go on the faces of the engine frames - on the real ones these were cast in, I'm adding them on to mimic the look without having to mill off so much from the raw bar stock. There are three round pads that hold the lay shaft support bearings, three will be part of the bearings brackets themselves, but while I'm set up for that hole circle, best to drill them all. Also a pair for the lay shaft drive-shaft that comes up from the crankshaft. So, turned some stainless to diameter, and drilled the holes on the rotab
(https://i.postimg.cc/k5GCMwZ8/IMG-9950.jpg)
then parted them off. A little file cleanup on the parted faces is needed, and the sides of the discs away from the holes will get milled off flat - the center of the discs will be near the edge of the frame, and trimmed to be flush.
(https://i.postimg.cc/wBrp1L8r/IMG-9951.jpg)



Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 23, 2021, 08:27:50 PM
Got the pads cut and drilled for the other mounting points on the engine frames. These ones are for the main supports of the lay shaft:

(https://i.postimg.cc/NfKWsrSn/IMG-9952.jpg)
and these are for the K-shaped frames that go between the pairs of engine frames on both sides. They are all same outer shape, but the upper and lower sets have the holes in different places.
(https://i.postimg.cc/kG4LtV4B/IMG-9953.jpg)
With all the pads cut and drilled, started with attaching the lay shaft frame holders. Took a while with the plans to lay out which pad goes on which side of which frame, they are all different. The tall pads were measured out and clamped in place on the frames for drilling and tapping. The plates have the tap-size hole in them already, so they were used as drill guides for the frames.

(https://i.postimg.cc/28ggVSfS/IMG-9954.jpg)
Tapping was done through both pieces at once, so the plates are threaded as well.
(https://i.postimg.cc/BZYrfCYD/IMG-9956.jpg)
Was about to start laying out the other pads, when I realized that I had not yet drilled the 1-72 holes in the tops of the frames for the brackets that hold the upper catwalks around the cylinders. So, started doing those instead before I forget again.
(https://i.postimg.cc/rsP3G80g/IMG-9957.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on August 23, 2021, 09:06:32 PM
Great looking frame detail parts Chris!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 24, 2021, 08:08:10 PM
Thanks CNR!  Almost ready for final detailing and paint...

Got the pads for the lay shaft bearings and drive shaft bracket bolted on and all the holes drilled/tapped, again using the plates as drill guides into the rails.
(https://i.postimg.cc/fTz9gyMq/IMG-9959.jpg)
then milled off the overhangs - the larger discs taken off in a straight line at the edge of the rails, the one smaller one followed the countour of the catwalk bracket
(https://i.postimg.cc/Kv0MXbzG/IMG-9960.jpg)
then laid out and drilled the holes for the K-frames, these are just through-drilled clearance size, the K-frames will be tapped at the top and have a nut at the bottom.
(https://i.postimg.cc/wxcNVLYs/IMG-9961.jpg)
Last step on the frames will be to add a little filler in any gaps, sand, and a coat of paint! A long process for these frames.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RReid on August 24, 2021, 08:30:09 PM
Quote
A long process for these frames.
To badly paraphrase a well known aphorism - You're about to see the light at the top of the tower!

Then you can take pride in another job well done and a big step forward in the larger job. :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 24, 2021, 09:08:03 PM
Quote
A long process for these frames.
To badly paraphrase a well known aphorism - You're about to see the light at the top of the tower!

Then you can take pride in another job well done and a big step forward in the larger job. :cheers:


 :cheers:   
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Admiral_dk on August 24, 2021, 10:15:52 PM
Chris you mention that you are almost ready for painting those - but I must admit that I thought that the guide part in the middle should be worked on in the mill to ensure a flat even surface on those ...?

Per
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 24, 2021, 10:37:08 PM
Chris you mention that you are almost ready for painting those - but I must admit that I thought that the guide part in the middle should be worked on in the mill to ensure a flat even surface on those ...?

Per
Hi Per,


The wide flat pieces that make the sides of the guides were made from ground flat bar stock, much more even than the usual rolled bar. The soldering jig ensured that they were held parallel too. At most they should need a little polishing or lapping with the crossheads. At least that's what I am hoping!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 25, 2021, 03:21:57 PM
And after some sanding/filling in a few sports, painting, and paint cure time overnight, we have the next 'floor' up on the Holly 'building'!    And yes, the tops of each pair of frames are different widths and hole pattern, that is to match the different size compound cylinder bases that will go on top. There is another 4-3/4" of height to the final top 'floor'. Um, all you guys ARE coming over to help move this thing when its done, right?!

(https://i.postimg.cc/MK7yv6B0/IMG-9969.jpg)
 :whoohoo:
The tops of the frames are nicely aligned, all fits well.
(https://i.postimg.cc/T3QgJtCp/IMG-9965.jpg)
And naturally the shop elves did their best King Kong impressions while climbing up the Empire Pump Building, looking for biplanes to swat...
(https://i.postimg.cc/g0JRS3T4/IMG-9968.jpg)
Next up will be the K-frames, which go between the pairs on each side. They can be seen in this picture, the 'K' shapes lying on their sides up near the tops of the frames. I see another jig to make...
(https://i.postimg.cc/fbZ7gqKv/Engine-Frames-View.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Mcgyver on August 25, 2021, 03:35:47 PM
that looks great Chris!  It's really coming along
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RReid on August 25, 2021, 03:44:46 PM
After you add the penthouse apartment floor at the top for the elves, will it still fit through that door?
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 25, 2021, 03:49:37 PM
After you add the penthouse apartment floor at the top for the elves, will it still fit through that door?
They prefer a nest like squirrels make, but they use steel wool rather than leaves.   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 25, 2021, 03:51:19 PM
that looks great Chris!  It's really coming along


 :cheers:   This is one of those times when the appearance changes all at once! Good time to sit back and admire before making the next parts!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on August 25, 2021, 05:12:59 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

>>>>>>>>>>>BAD PUN ALERT<<<<<<<<<<WOOT WOOT WOOT>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Be sure and post some photos of those next parts, K?  (sorry) :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 25, 2021, 05:21:52 PM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

>>>>>>>>>>>BAD PUN ALERT<<<<<<<<<<WOOT WOOT WOOT>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Be sure and post some photos of those next parts, K?  (sorry) :Lol:
Angry nasty hungry mean shop gnome launching CNR's way now off the gnome-apult....   TWANG!!      Splat!  Oooops, tree....   :LittleDevil:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steamer on August 25, 2021, 05:46:35 PM
That's looking amazing Chris!   Are you going to steam her or just air?.   That isana.Zingly large engine with Sherline equipment!!!!! :cheers: :AllHailTheKing: :popcornsmall:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 25, 2021, 06:01:57 PM
That's looking amazing Chris!   Are you going to steam her or just air?.   That isana.Zingly large engine with Sherline equipment!!!!! :cheers: :AllHailTheKing: :popcornsmall:
I don't have a boiler that would be suitable for this engine, unless I tapped into the Lombard or Mann engine. Am planning just to run it on compressed air. I'll hide air lines direct to the other two cylinders, with needle valves to balance the flows, in the receiver tanks between the cylinders. To keep it looking interesting I may leave off some or all of the lagging on the cylinder level, it makes the engine look like an apartment block (for elves) with all the lagging panels in place. These engines ran slow, in the 12 to 20 rpm range, so hopefully with the large flywheels it will purr along.

The cylinder blocks are going to be interesting to make on the Sherlines, have found some automotive cylinder liners that I will use for the core of the IP and LP cylinders, which would otherwise be tough to turn on a 3" lathe (LP piston is 3" diameter). Thinking of stacking up some plate stock to form the outer jacket for the cylinders, the top/bottom sections were made seperately anyway, with the valves inside them - Corliss on HP/IP, poppet on LP. Thats a ways off though!  Maybe by then I'll find a 1" cylinder liner that will work, have not found one long enough yet, 2-3/8",  without ports in the side. That one could be turned normally though.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steamer on August 25, 2021, 06:17:43 PM
Well...if a certain 9 or 12 lathe needs to be used...let me know....I know a guy..... 8)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steamer on August 25, 2021, 06:22:53 PM
Even if it's to create some "castings".....everything roughed out and you finish it on the Sherline.   
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on August 25, 2021, 06:47:36 PM
That skyscraper is looking amazing, Chris!  :popcorn: :popcorn:

Yeah, I'll be over to help you move it  ;D

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 25, 2021, 09:10:35 PM
Well...if a certain 9 or 12 lathe needs to be used...let me know....I know a guy..... 8)
Isn't the old movie quote something like 'I know a guy who knows a guy who killed a guy...' ?   :Lol:

A friend of mine with a small manufacturing business locally has a humongo lathe, it can take 18" parts through the headstock, which means he could chuck up my lathe and mill, has offered its use anytime for turning/shaping large parts, though I'd be looking around on the cross slide asking 'wheres the lathe?' !! My lathe got carried down the hall to the shop room. His got delivered by huge truck and a crew of riggers - wish I had pictures of it going in!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 26, 2021, 02:48:38 PM
The Holly build is going to be on hold for several days, my cousin is bringing over some fittings from one of the old mahogany Chris-Craft powerboats he has that need to be remade. Castings that metal fatigued and broke, no replacements available, so I am going to duplicate in stainless bar stock. Will be back on the Holly sometime next week.


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: ShopShoe on August 26, 2021, 03:02:31 PM
I'd be interested in some posts about that process. I'm sure you'll do it creatively, artistically, well-engineeredly, and fast.

But I don't want you to waste time away from the Holly, either, I'm spellbound following that......

ShopShoe
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: propforward on August 29, 2021, 07:29:42 PM
Good heavens! I've not been on the forum so much lately, so I'm just getting caught up with builds, and I had 4 pages to get through on this one - absolutely amazing - really great to see those frames come together. Brilliant techniques, and the result just speaks for itself. Top shelf as always!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 31, 2021, 01:58:53 AM
Thanks Propforward!!


Turns out my cousin had to reschedule the drop-off for the boat parts, nothing done on that yet.


I just got back from a trip to Boston and Maine, stories, pictures and videos tomorrow. Small hint, think giant steam pumping engines, steam powered cars, lighthouses, and views of Canada.  That should keep you scratching heads till tomorrow!!   :headscratch:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on August 31, 2021, 05:35:57 PM
Canada itself was pretty steamy last week, let alone any pumping engines or cars. Head being scratched as we speak. :Lol:

sounds like you had an interesting trip! :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 31, 2021, 05:43:18 PM
Canada itself was pretty steamy last week, let alone any pumping engines or cars. Head being scratched as we speak. :Lol:

sounds like you had an interesting trip! :cheers:
The temperatures were in mid 90's when I left home in upstate NY, by the time I got to Maine it was low 70s. On Monday though, even Maine was a steambath!
Getting pics and videos loaded up now...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Roger B on August 31, 2021, 05:46:04 PM
I'm still following and enjoying  :praise2:  :praise2:  :wine1: Your pause will allow me to catch up properly. That slitting saw looks quite vicious   ::) Do you get much chatter with the widely spaced teeth?
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 31, 2021, 06:21:47 PM
So, its been a really fun long weekend - I went up and spent the afternoon Friday at the Waterworks Museum in Boston, where they have several huge old steam powered pumping engines. Then, on up to the Logging Museum in Maine, where I spent several nights staying in the museum caretakers house out in the woods (about 1-1/2 miles to nearest road), a very quiet spot in the middle of the museum. On Saturday, several of the museum people and I went over to Kingfield Maine to the Stanley Museum where they got out three of the Stanley steam cars, and took us all out for the afternoon in them. Very exciting - I've never even seen one run before, let alone ride in one! On Sunday I took a drive way up to the northern end of the Maine coast to Lubec, also hitting the Quoddy lighthouse at the easternmost point in the continental US. Monday down to Fort Knox (no, not the one with the gold and the Bond villains, this one is an early coastal defense fort) and also the Penobscot Narrows cable stay bridge. Quite a fun weekend!

So, time for some photos and videos. Here is a compilation of clips that I put together at the Stanley run (a little long)

[youtube1]https://youtu.be/-y34iUjB8Zg[/youtube1]
And a set of pictures from the Stanley day:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/26BXUuw5jSTm6j46A (https://photos.app.goo.gl/26BXUuw5jSTm6j46A)
For the short version, here are the three cars we rode in:
(https://i.postimg.cc/59mPsVy9/IMG-2777.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/tgPkW08j/IMG-2790.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/5NNsGRQB/IMG-2820.jpg)
Here is what the engine from one looks like, two cylinder with reverse, directly geared to the rear axle with no changeable gears, capable of speeds in the 40 to 70mph range (we got up about 40 max, mostly we were on side roads). This is like the model engine that I built.

(https://i.postimg.cc/J46pW5j9/IMG-2785.jpg)
This is the boiler under the hood
(https://i.postimg.cc/7ZjX5Ps9/IMG-2816a.jpg)
and what it looks like inside - outer cylinder is wrapped in 3 layers of piano wire so they could use thinner metal and make it light weight. It runs at up to 600 psi. Many vertical firetubes, low water volume, has a kerosene burner.
(https://i.postimg.cc/SKN8QBqd/IMG-2800.jpg)
All it needs is a driver!

(https://i.postimg.cc/zGy0DHj3/IMG-2836a.jpg)
And no, I did not get to drive, it takes a bit of training to operate these, lots of controls! Did get to spend several hours out riding around in them though.

(https://i.postimg.cc/SxGChS0j/IMG-2775.jpg)

As for the waterworks museum, it has several engines including this huge Allis triple pumping engine - pumps are under the floor:
(https://i.postimg.cc/50XCL8XF/IMG-2294a.jpg)
The director there gave me free access all up and down the engines, from the pumps in the lower level up to the top catwalks. We spent hours going over the engine, he took lots of notes on how things worked and I got lots of detail photos and a chance to climb around. I found a number of details that I had missed on the plans, and explained a number of things that they did not know about.
Even spotted the boiler feedwater pump over on one wall in the lower level, same type as used on a locomotive - they had been wondering what it was.

Fascinating to see the pumps down on the lower level in person, very helpful for completing the 3D CAD model I am drawing up based on the original blueprints he gave me. Unfortunately the plans for the other engines there were lost years ago in a building collapse.
(https://i.postimg.cc/RFt0vd3G/IMG-2587a.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/RCc08PxZ/IMG-2658a.jpg)
They have a pair of spare beehives for the check valve plates - there are patterns of these on the check valve plates inside the pumps on both the intake and output sides of the pumps - 1520 individual valves altogether. The round discs are hard rubber, spring loaded. That beehive is almost 2' tall, quite heavy, the pump chambers have lifting cranes built into the sides.
(https://i.postimg.cc/zvSXgfFg/IMG-2666a.jpg)
From there we worked our way all the way up all the levels of the engine, till we were standing on the top, 60' up from the base
(https://i.postimg.cc/NFwjFXmt/IMG-2712a.jpg)
Along the way got a lot of detail pictures of things like the governor and valve assemblies, will be useful on the CAD model since the plans show all the pieces but not much on how they go together!
(https://i.postimg.cc/GhKm3H20/IMG-2688a.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/jdtjrzRQ/IMG-2706a.jpg)
One thing he pointed out was the damage on the valve guides for the poppet valves on the LP cylinder (most are Corliss, the IP exhaust and all LP are poppet)
(https://i.postimg.cc/bwvNZpDZ/IMG-2699a.jpg)
You can see the broken piece at the bottom center of the curved part - looks like it metal fatigued the cast iron and cracked. Some were worse than this, and had been repaired at some point with a bolted on surrounding piece. These engines ran from late 1800s till 1970.

At the logging museum, this was my front yard - mist is coming off the mill creek early in the morning:
(https://i.postimg.cc/dt5JPpHw/IMG-2751a.jpg)
and I just had to stop in and see my favorite machines, the herd of Lombards in the machinery hall:
(https://i.postimg.cc/HLymMxpk/IMG-2985a.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/XYX4VLmF/IMG-2986a.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/bwM8dbf5/IMG-2988a.jpg)
Lubec is a very pretty little town on the border of Canada. This lighthouse is on the Candian side:
(https://i.postimg.cc/nzfJGJzY/IMG-2914a.jpg)
Lots of lobstering there:
(https://i.postimg.cc/C5Fp9sbR/IMG-2919a.jpg)
Quite tall pilings, the tide is over 15 feet
(https://i.postimg.cc/4dvT8SHC/IMG-2923a.jpg)
Just down the coast is the Quoddy lighthouse, easternmost in the US
(https://i.postimg.cc/1RHQwbZw/IMG-2949a.jpg)
Fort Knox (the Maine one) is a large coastal defense fort from early 1800s
(https://i.postimg.cc/8zFg85fm/IMG-3057a.jpg)
Great overview of it from the top of the cable stay bridge there, it has an observation deck (with elevator, fortunately) that is 420 feet up
(https://i.postimg.cc/XYTSnbwS/IMG-3078a.jpg)
The bridge from below
(https://i.postimg.cc/J4YCdJ0h/IMG-3083a.jpg)



Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 31, 2021, 06:24:06 PM
I'm still following and enjoying  :praise2: :praise2: :wine1: Your pause will allow me to catch up properly. That slitting saw looks quite vicious   ::) Do you get much chatter with the widely spaced teeth?
That saw is a fairly small diameter, a little smaller than the gear cutters, so the teeth are not that far apart, and its quite rigid, its 1/16" thick. Using it in brass it cuts very clean and smooth, no chatter. I used a medium speed and fed slow - it threw off fine powdery chips.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Roger B on August 31, 2021, 06:46:36 PM
What a splendid trip  :)  :)  :)  :wine1:

Ah, so the teeth are smaller than I thought, scale is always difficult to perceive  :headscratch:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 31, 2021, 06:50:18 PM
What a splendid trip  :) :) :) :wine1:

Ah, so the teeth are smaller than I thought, scale is always difficult to perceive  :headscratch:
Just measured, its 2" diameter, 1/8" long teeth. Still aggressive, but it cuts great. If it was thinner I think it would flex.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on August 31, 2021, 06:52:29 PM
Wow!  That was some action-packed trip!  The ride in the Stanly Steamers is pretty unique.  I'll bee not many people get that opportunity!  I know I haven't.  Not to mention the personal 1 on 1 tour of the Allis pumping engines.  And the night stay at the logging museum.  You really had a lot of great and special opportunities there, Chris!

Thanks for sharing them with us!
Kim

PS - See? Just like work - you go on a trip and have to give a trip report when you get back!  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Roger B on August 31, 2021, 07:13:30 PM
My thing is to have actually driven a Sentinel Steam Wagon  :)  :) I was warned not to rely on the steam brake cylinder as it took a while to warm up, stop condensing the steam and apply pressure to the brake linings. At the same transport festival ( Crich Tramway museum) I was also challenged to drive a double decker bus (Bristol FLF driver trainer) up the quarry and back, the first time using the clutch to change gear, the second time without the clutch, each crunch was a pint to the owner   :) :wine1: :old:

https://www.tramway.co.uk/
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 31, 2021, 11:05:15 PM
My thing is to have actually driven a Sentinel Steam Wagon  :) :) I was warned not to rely on the steam brake cylinder as it took a while to warm up, stop condensing the steam and apply pressure to the brake linings. At the same transport festival ( Crich Tramway museum) I was also challenged to drive a double decker bus (Bristol FLF driver trainer) up the quarry and back, the first time using the clutch to change gear, the second time without the clutch, each crunch was a pint to the owner   :) :wine1: :old:

https://www.tramway.co.uk/ (https://www.tramway.co.uk/)
Great site!

The head of the Stanley museum, Susan, was very interested to see the Mann Wagon model - she had a chance to drive a Sentinel at an event in New Hampshire once.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 31, 2021, 11:17:44 PM
Oh, and while touring around the Leavitt engine at the waterworks museum, we came across that worm gear that was mentioned much earlier in this thread by Sid:
(https://i.postimg.cc/7PN0T1Yb/Levitt-Engine-Gear.jpg)
I explained to the director about how worm gears work, and how it would not be possible for the flywheel to get the worm gear to turn to drive something else as Sid's tour guide claimed. He remembered back when the engine was put of for Landmark status, they had an event where the engine was turned over by a small motor for a demonstration - this worm gear is likely the remnant of that event. I could tell that the stand it is on was a home-made addition, and the gear put into the barring holes IS in mesh but there is no provision for swinging it out of the way other than removing the bolts in the stand. The metal bar is quite lightweight, and would never stand up to actual engine speeds regardless. The Leavitt engine ran at 60 RPM, which along with its odd off-center design (so that it would fit the existing building) was most of the reason it broke down so much. Now, this is the Leavitt engine in Boston, same building but different engine than the Allis that I've been showing other pictures of.Also on the Leavitt, it was mentioned about what looks like a ships steering wheel up at the valve eccentrics next to the lay shaft. While there I was able to follow the control linkages and the gearing, and determine that it was put in to be the barring method - it has a bevel gear reduction set that connects to the lay shaft, with a lever with dog clutch to engage it when desired. That wheel would give a large gear reduction to the lay shaft, which itself is directly geared to the crankshaft, to allow them to turn the engine by hand for starting - it would only take a small turn angle on the crankshaft to get it off of a top/bottom dead center condition on the HP cylinder to allow it to self start. There are barring holes on the flywheel, but the only place that you could put a long lever in to use them is obstructed by one of the catwalk support poles!



Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on September 01, 2021, 12:28:42 AM
Great pics Chris! looks like an excellent trip and a lot of fun. Thanks for posting the photos.  :cheers:

oh, when looking across at Canada, did you have a sudden urge to eat poutine or a peameal/back bacon sandwich, wear a toque, and add the saying "eh?" to every sentence? Or compare snowmobile specs with your neighbour? No? maybe you weren't lookin long enough, eh?  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 01, 2021, 12:57:29 AM
Great pics Chris! looks like an excellent trip and a lot of fun. Thanks for posting the photos.  :cheers:

oh, when looking across at Canada, did you have a sudden urge to eat poutine or a peameal/back bacon sandwich, wear a toque, and add the saying "eh?" to every sentence? Or compare snowmobile specs with your neighbour? No? maybe you weren't lookin long enough, eh?  :Lol:
I was wearing a baseball cap and went for some fried Haddock, not close enough, eh?





I am having Red Green show flashbacks, eh?  Toss me another brewski! Keep yer stick on the ice!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steamer on September 01, 2021, 01:18:00 AM
Hey Chris

The barring engine, or wheel in this case, wasn't used to get the engine off dead center....They would use starting valves for that  which were live steam fed manually into the either the IP or LP cylinder when the engine was on HP TDC or BDC..      but a good engineer would never stop it there....but thats something else

The Barring engine or wheel was used to push condensate out of cylinders without starting the engine.  This would allow the condensate to exit the condensate valves slow enough to not hammer the cylinder heads and blow them off.   

We would do this to good effect on Sabino when she was started cold, and the 750 HP tug engine when we got it running.

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 01, 2021, 01:44:40 AM
Hey Chris

The barring engine, or wheel in this case, wasn't used to get the engine off dead center....They would use starting valves for that  which were live steam fed manually into the either the IP or LP cylinder when the engine was on HP TDC or BDC..      but a good engineer would never stop it there....but thats something else

The Barring engine or wheel was used to push condensate out of cylinders without starting the engine.  This would allow the condensate to exit the condensate valves slow enough to not hammer the cylinder heads and blow them off.   

We would do this to good effect on Sabino when she was started cold, and the 750 HP tug engine when we got it running.

Dave


Ah!  Great info! Will add that to my somewhat porous info bank!


A cylinder drain at the bottom of a vertical cylinder could drain that end, but I never thought about the upper end, or would it need turning to get both ends cleared? So it would be barred around at least a full turn?

I recall seeing drains on the receivers between the cylinders on the big pumping engines, lots could condense there too.

On the Lombard we would run a short time with the drains open when starting, thats on a horizontal engine.
 :cheers:   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steamer on September 01, 2021, 02:02:42 AM
Hey Chris

The barring engine, or wheel in this case, wasn't used to get the engine off dead center....They would use starting valves for that  which were live steam fed manually into the either the IP or LP cylinder when the engine was on HP TDC or BDC..      but a good engineer would never stop it there....but thats something else

The Barring engine or wheel was used to push condensate out of cylinders without starting the engine.  This would allow the condensate to exit the condensate valves slow enough to not hammer the cylinder heads and blow them off.   

We would do this to good effect on Sabino when she was started cold, and the 750 HP tug engine when we got it running.

Dave


Ah!  Great info! Will add that to my somewhat porous info bank!


A cylinder drain at the bottom of a vertical cylinder could drain that end, but I never thought about the upper end, or would it need turning to get both ends cleared? So it would be barred around at least a full turn?

I recall seeing drains on the receivers between the cylinders on the big pumping engines, lots could condense there too.

On the Lombard we would run a short time with the drains open when starting, thats on a horizontal engine.
 :cheers:   :cheers:

Yes to all of the above......my little engine has top and bottom cylinder drains, and 2 receiver drains....and it needed it!

On Sabino....you bar it through 1 full turn,  ( with a crow bar specifically made for the notches in the flywheel)  then let it sit and warm up with full link, steam to the  LP from the starting valve, and the throttle cracked......let it sit  there still for 5 minutes, then throw the link into astern and do the same...... THEN!

Clear the BDC of the HP without the LP going to TDC......( Cranks are at 90 degrees)   then slowly clear the HP TDC without the LP going to TDC   Close the HP condensate drains.....now with some throttle,  The wet air pump started, and just using the link...bump the LP slowly and carefully through TDC,,,,  ( Bottom gets cleared with the wet air pump on it's own)....and once through let it run slowly, leaving the LP condensate valves open....close the receiver drain, close the starting valve...let her run in astern for 5-10 minutes.   She'll be ready to answer the astern bell to pull out of the slip.

The Tug engine was the same thing....but we used a large worm gear and a big wrench   ( 20 x 39 x 30...so big compound)....and it took a LOT longer!

Dave


Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steamer on September 01, 2021, 02:09:47 AM
As far as being "caught" on HP TDC....well    first of all don't stop it there....that's easy enough

However....it happens.

Traditionally, crack the starting valve, and that lets some live steam into the LP, and gets the HP off DC, and bob's your uncle

Better way

Grab the reverse lever, and quickly change from where ever you are to the other side of the link, and back  ( Full astern link to full ahead link and back or vise versa)
What that does it allow  a puff of steam to go to the LP from the receiver, and she'll come right off DC and start right up.....

I could handle that engine fast enough that the captain might as well as had a lever in the pilot house.....    ( he didn't...he only had the bell pulls)

But you know Sabino.......  8)

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 01, 2021, 02:49:59 AM
Great stuff Dave!!!


Back in 1982 I had built my RC Sabino model, and had the captain running it next to the real one. Next cruise out, with the model on the window seat in the engine room, the captain called me up to the pilothouse and let me take the wheel for the whole run (with him right there to tell me what signal bells to ring). It handled just like the model! You are right, the quick response reverse/forward pulling back to the dock was impressive. Still a vivid memory, and I still treasure the crew hat they gave me. Awesome experience for a college kid.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steamer on September 01, 2021, 02:54:50 AM
I've got some pics of the engine room....I mean the parts you CANT see...send me your email, and I'll send them over

Dave


On with the thread....
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 01, 2021, 03:00:11 AM
I've got some pics of the engine room....I mean the parts you CANT see...send me your email, and I'll send them over

Dave


On with the thread....
Sent!

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 01, 2021, 03:01:26 AM
Oh, and hopefully back on the thread tomorrow, my back was a bit stiff from all the time driving this weekend.


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: MJM460 on September 01, 2021, 08:33:22 AM
That sounds like a wonderful long weekend and an opportunity to fill in the gaps that inevitably open up in the photos from your earlier visits.  Nothing like getting down to the design detail to reveal what was missed the first time around.

Thanks for posting the photos.

MJM460

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 01, 2021, 05:40:33 PM
Back to work on the Holly engine this morning, started shaping the K-frames that go between the pairs of engine frames. There are four of these, two on each side. Originally I was thinking that these would need to be pieced up, but once I laid out a pattern, realized that I could just cut them from some stress relieved bar stock quicker.  Started out cutting the straight sides
(https://i.postimg.cc/5tRxkSW4/IMG-9970.jpg)
then moved to the rotary table and cut in the angled sides
(https://i.postimg.cc/bJSzXSqQ/IMG-9972.jpg)
Still need to trim in the bolt bosses and drill the ends, but had to see how the first one looks partway done:
(https://i.postimg.cc/bvJyTFMV/IMG-9973.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: gunna on September 02, 2021, 07:16:15 AM
Looks O'K' to me.  :Lol:
Ian.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 02, 2021, 12:43:11 PM
Looks O'K' to me.  :Lol:
Ian.
:ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on September 02, 2021, 12:55:53 PM
Ian beat me to it!  :Lol:

The bracket looks great! Not an easy shape to make a lot of.  :cheers:

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: sid pileski on September 02, 2021, 04:47:39 PM
Hey Chris!

Thanks for vindicating my thoughts on that addition.
My tour guide was pretty adamant that, the extra gearing was to drive an auxiliary oil pump.
I tried to get him to think about it logically (just the gearing alone wouldn't make sense!) but he was not convinced.

Sid

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 02, 2021, 07:41:52 PM
Hey Chris!

Thanks for vindicating my thoughts on that addition.
My tour guide was pretty adamant that, the extra gearing was to drive an auxiliary oil pump.
I tried to get him to think about it logically (just the gearing alone wouldn't make sense!) but he was not convinced.

Sid
Yeah, hopefully the director gets the word out to the tour guides!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 02, 2021, 07:53:06 PM
As I mentioned previously, my cousin had some boat parts that needed work - he was able to stop by today and drop them off. The main thing was the gas cap lever. Here is the full assembly:
(https://i.postimg.cc/m2KJkHdt/IMG-9975.jpg)
Unlike a modern car gas cap it does not have a quarter-turn screw arrangement to compress the gasket - the lever over the top and the screw on the left side push the cap down on the gasket (which needs replacing, I will cut one from some Viton sheet). The lever over the top has a cross pin in the center, which weakens the cast lever, which had broken.
(https://i.postimg.cc/0QtHsMM5/IMG-9976.jpg)
The cast metal has a huge grain structure, does not look like a very well done casting. I am going to make a new lever from stainless steel, and probably make a little bump up over that middle pin to increase the beam strength somewhat.

Another piece is the half-wing-nut-bolt-thingy that holds the windshield to the side brackets - one is missing, here is the other to use as a pattern. It has a 5/16-16 thread, probably will cut that on the lathe, and mill out the rest of the shape.
(https://i.postimg.cc/9fhktjH2/IMG-9977.jpg)
The last piece is this gauge panel. Still in good shape until some vandals broke in to the barn and kicked in the face of it. They were caught at another building at least, but meing kids they didn't get much punishment. Jay said a replacement one of these costs a fortune, so well worth attempting to fix it. At first glance it looks fine
(https://i.postimg.cc/vTkq4Jtp/IMG-9978.jpg)
but this is supposed to be flat (I took the insert panel out of the back panel)

(https://i.postimg.cc/509kTqtk/IMG-9981.jpg)
After some gentle bending and tapping the pieces with blocks of wood as formers, got it all back pretty flat again:
(https://i.postimg.cc/9fYnLNc7/IMG-9983.jpg)
The surface of the insert panel has this pattern 'engraved' in - some sort of fancy stamping probably
(https://i.postimg.cc/jSN97S9v/IMG-9980.jpg)
I'll put up some pictures as the lever arm gets remade - probably be silver soldered up from three pieces, the end fork, the center arm, and the end tube, and then nickel plated.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 02, 2021, 07:56:07 PM
This morning I got the last of the K frames shaped and drilled/tapped:
(https://i.postimg.cc/VvdZLfnq/IMG-9974.jpg)
and then painted
(https://i.postimg.cc/N0Zk76HH/IMG-9985.jpg)
Next pieces will be the straight brackets that hold the lay-shaft supports.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steam guy willy on September 03, 2021, 03:21:51 AM
Hi Chris ...looking really good ...impressive ...have you worked out how many square inches there are that need painting  ;)

Willy
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 03, 2021, 12:56:41 PM
Hi Chris ...looking really good ...impressive ...have you worked out how many square inches there are that need painting  ;)

Willy
47.2 lotsa-inches!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on September 03, 2021, 02:41:46 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

I don't know why, but when I look at those special K brackets I have the urge to eat cereal....... :Lol: :shrug:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 03, 2021, 02:47:10 PM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

I don't know why, but when I look at those special K brackets I have the urge to eat cereal....... :Lol: :shrug:
With the shiny swarf topping!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 03, 2021, 09:40:17 PM
Today got started on the crossbars that will support the lay shaft. First cut down the bar stock for the middle of the crossbars:
(https://i.postimg.cc/SxW4T6Q8/IMG-9986.jpg)
At either end is a flange that sticks out and has holes to bolt the crossbars to the engine frames. The crossbars will be notched to fit into these flanges. The stock for the flanges was left as one long piece for now to make shaping easier - first drilled all the bolt holes:
(https://i.postimg.cc/CKSgWRd2/IMG-9987.jpg)
Then started notching in one side of the bar - the flanges are angled in on one side to match the angle of the frames.
(https://i.postimg.cc/W48vjsk1/IMG-9988.jpg)
Once all the notches are done, will drill openings in each one to take the crossbars before cutting them apart.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 04, 2021, 03:40:40 PM
This morning got the rest of the angled steps cut into the bar for the side plates. Then made a little holding bar from scrap so I could screw the bar down to the vise in a repeatable position to mill in the recesses on the sides. There are two sets of holes in the bit of scrap, so I can mill recesses in either side - the holes in each end of the blocks are different spacing, so when the part is flipped over the holes are in different positions relative to the vise.
Here I started milling the recesses on the first three parts:
(https://i.postimg.cc/T3s9Wk4x/IMG-9991.jpg)
and this is starting the second three - since the plates go at either end of the main bar, the recesses have to be on the opposite sides for half the parts. If you look at the section just to the right of where the milling is done on this one, you can see that the bar has been flipped over.

(https://i.postimg.cc/s2ZJPpkh/IMG-9992.jpg)
Once all the recesses are done, the parts can be sawn apart, and the shaping done on the ends.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 04, 2021, 05:54:52 PM
and the parts are cut apart, ready for shaping the ends. Started with trimming the overall length on the flat sides:
(https://i.postimg.cc/BbWhdh0s/IMG-9993.jpg)
then flipped them over and trimmed the recessed sides, which also get notches between the bolt holes
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZY3srh8q/IMG-9994.jpg)
First one test fit on the center bar, ready for final filing.

(https://i.postimg.cc/Xqw23wj5/IMG-9995.jpg)
Once all the end caps are to this stage, they will be notched for the center bars, and the center bars notched to match, so the caps fit on flush to the bars, and the mortise/tenon shapes will hold things in position for silver soldering too.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 04, 2021, 09:00:12 PM
Finishing up the shaping on the cross beams - milled out the mortise opening in each cap piece. The width of the slot is the important part, the length just needs to extend past the length of the tenon, since the ends of the recess on the other side will position the parts in that axis. So, it does not matter about the rounded inside corners of the mortises, the will be hidden by the engine frames, and the gap there will give an easy place to drop bits of silver solder when attaching the caps.
(https://i.postimg.cc/66HvMMdG/IMG-9996.jpg)
And cutting the tenons on the ends of the cross beams:
(https://i.postimg.cc/5ykQjtxm/IMG-9998.jpg)
They all fit nice and snug so they wont move around when soldering, which will be the next step:
(https://i.postimg.cc/fyb0wdhL/IMG-0001.jpg)
These cross beams sit between the engine frames, and screws are run in through the five holes in each cap into the frames to hold them. These beams will get another piece sticking out the sides that hold the lay shaft bearings.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on September 04, 2021, 11:03:41 PM
Very nice work on the cross-pieces Chris!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 04, 2021, 11:55:27 PM
Very nice work on the cross-pieces Chris!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Thanks CNR!  Still some work to do on them, adding the supports for the lay shafts and getting everything soldered up.

With these complete, I'll be maybe a third or halfway done with the engine...! Seems like farther, but the remaining parts include a LOT of smaller pieces - pistons, cylinders, receivers, corliss valves, poppet valves, con rods, control rods, governor, catwalks, brackets, railings, ladders, lions, tigers, and bears!


Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steamer on September 05, 2021, 12:11:03 AM
That's a fair amount of whittling going on there!    Lots of brass.....I like brass!


Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 05, 2021, 12:32:09 AM
That's a fair amount of whittling going on there!    Lots of brass.....I like brass!


Dave
Me too, my favorite metal to machine.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Don1966 on September 05, 2021, 01:57:26 AM
Awwww the smell of brass, looking great Dog …….. :Love:


 :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: ozzie46 on September 05, 2021, 01:34:07 PM
looking great. Still following along.
Ron
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 05, 2021, 02:32:53 PM
Thanks Don and Ron!  This morning got started silver soldering the caps on the crossbars, one end on each is done and cooling off...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 05, 2021, 08:55:42 PM
Silver soldering all done on the cross beams:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Y9gbymdG/IMG-0006.jpg)
Next up is to add the bearing holders to each one - they stick out and hold the lay whaft out in front of the engine frames.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Don1966 on September 05, 2021, 09:51:14 PM
Damn Dog your getting good at it it.


 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 05, 2021, 11:36:01 PM
Thanks Don!   :cheers:


Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 05, 2021, 11:44:04 PM
I had mentioned about the Chris-Craft parts I was going to be working on for my cousin's boat, and some of you asked for pictures of how that goes. Today I got to the lever-screw-thingy that holds the tilting windshield on the boat. I started with a block of stainless steel and a length of matching thread cut off from a bolt I found in the bolt-box in the shop. The end of the bolt was turned down round, a matching hole drilled in the block, and the bolt loctited and cross-pinned into the block. Then traced out the outline of the existing part onto the block and started milling out the new one (he needs two, only had one)
(https://i.postimg.cc/6pB9zr5S/IMG-0004.jpg)
The milling was done etch-a-sketch style, working in close with straight cuts then freehanding in the curves up to the lines. Then moved the block to the end of the vise and started taking off from both sides to form the thinner wing
(https://i.postimg.cc/9fMcHc9Y/IMG-0005.jpg)
Here is the part after all that, ready for final shaping on the belt sander
(https://i.postimg.cc/QdSjzFFM/IMG-0008.jpg)
A bunch of sanding, then some nickel plating, which the original parts were. Also gave the old one a light sanding and plated it as well, there were places where the old plating was worn through. Easy for me to tell them apart, the new stainless one is heavier than the old cast one, which appears to be some sort of zinc alloy.
(https://i.postimg.cc/yNbsV2X4/IMG-0009.jpg)
Should do the job!  That leaves the gas cap hold-down lever. Still debating whether to mill it out of one piece or silver solder up some thinner pieces - leaning towards the single-piece since it would be stronger, but its a lot more milling work.   :thinking:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 06, 2021, 01:29:11 PM
Well, got an easy answer to the piece-it-up vs one-piece construction for the gas cap lever - cannot find the bar stock size in stainless needed for piecing it up anywhere, and I have a block big enough to mill it out in one piece, so thats an easy decision!! It would not be strong enough in brass, and I want the corrosion resistance since it will be on a boat, so tool steel is out.  So, fire up the saw and mill!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: ShopShoe on September 06, 2021, 01:30:03 PM
Very nice etch-a-sketching. I think most of us have had to make some kind of part like that sometime. Usually the person asking me to do it would say "I need the little thing shaped like a baseball bat that screws into the windshield, you know....." (I don't.)

Thank You for posting,

--ShopShoe
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steamer on September 06, 2021, 01:34:00 PM
Hogment!!!

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Brian Rupnow on September 06, 2021, 03:01:02 PM
Chris--your capabilities as a designer and a fabricator continue to amaze me. You are doing beautiful work, and I stop by every day to see what you have done. Excellent work!!!---Brian
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 06, 2021, 03:40:52 PM
Thanks guys!

Here is the start on the cas cap lever - started with a bar thick enough to get the profile and the fork at the one end out of, and some time on the bandsaw got most of the shape roughed out pretty quickly - was able to clamp the part in a smaller vise and clamp that small vise in the bandsaw vise to get out to where I could saw down the length on either side to narrow the shank, that saved a LOT of time on the mill.
(https://i.postimg.cc/t4tHcQQq/IMG-0010.jpg)
Since this picture I got the L shape at the end and the profile of the middle arm milled in, starting in now on the wider end, which has a bit of a cup shape to hold the spring knob and also will get a slot cut in the center to form the forks. I'll drill a hole at the base of the 'L' end and silver solder a tube there to form the end pivot. Coming along pretty quickly.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on September 06, 2021, 05:37:23 PM
Looks like you've got a handle on the windshield screw thingy!  :Lol:  :facepalm: Very well done and will be MUCH more durable than the original zinc cast alloy.  :cheers:

The gas cap lever is a tricky shape but it looks like it is well underway too. Again stainless will be far stronger than the original lever. Great to watch your progress on these boat parts.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 06, 2021, 07:02:22 PM
Nearly there on the gas cap lever!  (and for those that missed the last few posts, this is a part for an old Chris Craft wood boat that belongs to my cousin, the original cast lever had broken and I'm making a new one for him).
Got the rest of the shape nibbled out on the mill, and did some test fits on the cap assembly. Needed a little trimming, now fits nicely and works well. The knob on the right is spring loaded so it can be pulled up and over the end of the lever, the spring compresses the cap down on the opening. It has a rubber gasket (going to replace that while I'm at it, the old one is very dry)
(https://i.postimg.cc/4d8NnKXF/IMG-0011.jpg)
Still to go is to sand the lever and round over the ends of the fork where the knob goes over it, get rid of that sharp corner. Also need to make the tubular end on the L end of the lever where it pins to the main unit.
Here is the piece for the tube end, notched to fit over the end of the lever, with a little piece of brass rod to go inside and hold the parts in alignment during silver soldering. The brass rod will be easy to drill out after soldering.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Fz7FS9RF/IMG-0012.jpg)
and the pieces assembled for soldering:
(https://i.postimg.cc/fLWRw7Q9/IMG-0013.jpg)
Soldering is done, and is cooling off before a soak in some vinegar to clean up the flux. Then will drill out the brass, and take it to the belt sander for final smoothing and rounding off corners. Then some nickel plating and it will be done!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Don1966 on September 06, 2021, 07:04:40 PM
Super Dog….  :Love:


 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: mklotz on September 06, 2021, 07:16:14 PM
You realize that you're doing too good a job, Chris, don't you?

Your cousin will proudly explain to his boatmates how you were able to make new boat parts out of better material when the old stuff broke.  Soon, the "couldyas" and "wouldyas" will come floating in and you'll be drowning in work.

Tell your cousin when he brags about your skill to tell the boatmates that you only charged him "a couple hundred dollars" for all that work.  That might keep them at bay - or maybe not, boat people are used to paying outrageously for little bits.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 06, 2021, 08:54:13 PM
You realize that you're doing too good a job, Chris, don't you?

Your cousin will proudly explain to his boatmates how you were able to make new boat parts out of better material when the old stuff broke.  Soon, the "couldyas" and "wouldyas" will come floating in and you'll be drowning in work.

Tell your cousin when he brags about your skill to tell the boatmates that you only charged him "a couple hundred dollars" for all that work.  That might keep them at bay - or maybe not, boat people are used to paying outrageously for little bits.
Given that the bent dash panel would have cost him $2300 to replace with another antique one  :o , I think that crowd would be used to paying big bucks!  Go look in any boat hardware store, and compare prices for the same darn things in the exact same materials at other outlets - anything labeled as a maritime part goes way up.  And when he told me to keep track of hours/materials, and I tried waving it off as not important for family, he insisted on paying. Have to bounce it back to him as a Christmas gift or something! His next neighbor will just pay double...   :LittleDevil:


our RC submarine group is exhibiting at the pool at the boat show on Grand Island next weekend, maybe I should take the parts along and show them to anyone with a broken part on their old boat!!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 06, 2021, 11:03:15 PM
And the boat parts are done - got the gas cap lever all sanded and plated
(https://i.postimg.cc/sfTQDCR1/IMG-0014.jpg)
and assembled back onto the base
(https://i.postimg.cc/5NjHXKxg/IMG-0015.jpg)
Here is what it looks like open - the knob at the end pulls up on a spring and tilts out of the way
(https://i.postimg.cc/zv2VdKkT/IMG-0017.jpg)
So, next time will be back on the Holly engine lay shaft brackets. 
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RReid on September 07, 2021, 01:43:35 AM
Chris craft is right! Lovely work, Chris.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: ShopShoe on September 07, 2021, 01:22:35 PM
I have to remember the easy-to-drill-out temporary part. I've made too many assemblies where I used the same material as the rest of it or just made it solid and tried to drill a hole through it on target later, usually with frustrating results.

Homer Simpson says: "DOH!"

Thank You for sharing your work.

ShopShoe
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 07, 2021, 01:53:07 PM
I have to remember the easy-to-drill-out temporary part. I've made too many assemblies where I used the same material as the rest of it or just made it solid and tried to drill a hole through it on target later, usually with frustrating results.

Homer Simpson says: "DOH!"

Thank You for sharing your work.

ShopShoe
This is the first time I tried that, it worked out great, I cut the brass rod short so it left a tube at one end to start the drill in and guide it.

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: sid pileski on September 07, 2021, 04:34:31 PM
And the boat parts are done - got the gas cap lever all sanded and plated
(https://i.postimg.cc/sfTQDCR1/IMG-0014.jpg)
and assembled back onto the base
(https://i.postimg.cc/5NjHXKxg/IMG-0015.jpg)
Here is what it looks like open - the knob at the end pulls up on a spring and tilts out of the way
(https://i.postimg.cc/zv2VdKkT/IMG-0017.jpg)
So, next time will be back on the Holly engine lay shaft brackets. 
 :cheers:

Chris- what did you plate then with? What is your set up?

Look very nice.

Sid
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 07, 2021, 05:14:15 PM
Hi Sid!
I nickel plated them using a home-made setup with a power supply. Attached to this post are three zip files, containing a copy of the article I did on plating for Live Steam magazine a while back. And yes, I am allowed to re-distribute this, it is my copy that I submitted so its allowed in the magazine agreement, I just can't duplicate anything they printed or generated from this.
Hope this helps, its a very easy plating method, works well on brass/steel/iron. In the article I show using a fixed voltage supply, normally I use a variable lab supply so I can dial in the voltage and current. Six volts with up to 1 amp is plenty, too high and it gives a rough finish.
Enjoy!
Chris
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 07, 2021, 08:12:23 PM
Been nibbling away at the brackets for the lay shaft, the bodies of the three brackets were drilled/bolted together so that they could be milled out in one, and have them all match profiles. Also drilled three matching patterns in a bar to make the caps from.
(https://i.postimg.cc/VkzZS9jL/IMG-0022.jpg)
Also painted the cross bars this morning, and got them bolted in place
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZK8DKsvM/IMG-0019.jpg)
Good time for a family shot showing the whole engine so far...
(https://i.postimg.cc/sgK65BcP/IMG-0021.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 07, 2021, 11:41:07 PM
The caps had the tops stepped at the ends on the mill, then cut apart and bolted to the bases. Chucked the whole assembly up in the 4-jaw, and drilled the hole for the lay shaft bearings:
(https://i.postimg.cc/nzfmgYYf/IMG-0023.jpg)
To give you a better idea where this is going, here they are screwed to the cross beams and a length of rod set in the holes - still need to make the bronze bearings and do the rest of the shaping on the caps, rounding the tops over.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZRPNSBVB/IMG-0025.jpg)
Things do seem to line up well on the shaft holes, I drilled the bolt holes in the cross beams one drill size larger than normal to give me a little adjustment room for alignment if needed. All the time spent on the jigs for the engine frames is paying off in how well things are linging up.
Next up will be the shaft bearings, and finishing the shaping on the caps. There are still a few more bearing holders to make, these attach to the rounded pads on the frames and support the lay shaft on the opposite sides of each set of eccentrics. Its interesting how they used completely different mounting arrangements for the two sets of brackets, the first set on the cross beams also support the engine frames at the center.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steamer on September 08, 2021, 03:00:04 AM
Oh man!   I'm digging this build.   I have a set of plans for your next build Chris....Talk to me after.....seriously!

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 08, 2021, 03:44:18 AM
Oh man!   I'm digging this build.   I have a set of plans for your next build Chris....Talk to me after.....seriously!

Dave


Why wait?  I can plan ahead!




So, steam powered space shuttle? Buggatti Steamron? Robotic shop elf? (Just heard a 'Hey!! What??' from the other room)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 08, 2021, 03:49:15 AM
One bit of disappointing news, just heard the logging museum in Maine has cancelled the Living History Days event in October due to the rising Covid rate. Was looking forward to it, glad I made it to the Stanley event and the logging museum event back in June. Here's hoping for next spring...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steamer on September 08, 2021, 09:55:17 AM
Oh man!   I'm digging this build.   I have a set of plans for your next build Chris....Talk to me after.....seriously!

Dave


Why wait?  I can plan ahead!




So, steam powered space shuttle? Buggatti Steamron? Robotic shop elf? (Just heard a 'Hey!! What??' from the other room)

Closest guess was the Steam Powered Space Shuttle.....check you PM

 8)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: MJM460 on September 08, 2021, 12:03:52 PM
Great result on those Chris Craft fittings Chris.  Possibly even better than original.

Did you use another soldering jig to hold the ends of the cross beams square and at the correct length to fit between the uprights?  They certainly seem to fit well.

Still following along

MJM460

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 08, 2021, 03:05:06 PM
Great result on those Chris Craft fittings Chris.  Possibly even better than original.

Did you use another soldering jig to hold the ends of the cross beams square and at the correct length to fit between the uprights?  They certainly seem to fit well.

Still following along

MJM460
Hi mjm,


The little piece of brass rod in the picture from before soldering was the jig, it was put through the holes to align them for soldering, and was easy to drill out afterwards. The two sides of the crossbar were still connected by the little tab at the bottom.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: ddmckee54 on September 08, 2021, 03:32:43 PM
Chris:

You put the Holly engine on a scale lately?  It's looking to be a very hefty engine, and I was just wondering how hefty it actually is?  With all the brass and stainless steel bits you keep putting on the weight has got to be adding up.  Will the cylinder level be the heaviest, or the pump level?

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 08, 2021, 04:15:51 PM
Chris:

You put the Holly engine on a scale lately?  It's looking to be a very hefty engine, and I was just wondering how hefty it actually is?  With all the brass and stainless steel bits you keep putting on the weight has got to be adding up.  Will the cylinder level be the heaviest, or the pump level?

Don
Hi Don,


Nope, I am waiting for the shop elves cousin Mongo to come by and lift it!  The wood base has corner blocks so there is room to get fingers under it at least. I'm guessing the pump level will be heavier, with all the check valves and the pump base plates being heavier than the cylinders. Not going to roll it over and check though!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 08, 2021, 04:20:47 PM
Got one end lifted up and slipped the scale under the base, 46.5 pounds so far. Total will be almost double that, the scale was in a couple inches from the end. That means its going to outweigh the Marion shovel model by about 10 or 15 pounds when its all done. Wow!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 08, 2021, 07:17:12 PM
Made the bearings for the first three lay shaft supports:
(https://i.postimg.cc/vTCbsSnH/IMG-0028.jpg)
Installed, ready to do the shaping on the caps:
(https://i.postimg.cc/MZLWVXL2/IMG-0031.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on September 08, 2021, 08:54:21 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 08, 2021, 10:13:43 PM
and the caps shaped down using the old drill-rod-spacer-trick to keep a constant height with passes at different angles
(https://i.postimg.cc/MTFNgfky/IMG-0034.jpg)
on the model:
(https://i.postimg.cc/SRY34QqH/IMG-0035.jpg)
Next will be the other brackets, I need to go back to the CAD model and generate a sheet of measurements for them. The bases of the brackets are the discs that I made when drilling the hole patterns in the frames, so just need to make the arm and bearing holder end of them.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 09, 2021, 10:25:27 PM
Making up the second set of lay shaft brackets, same way as first set just a slightly different shape. These brackets give extra support near the eccentrics. So far I have the main shape and bearings made, still need to shape the bases where they will attach to the engine frames.

(https://i.postimg.cc/k4tH1DpV/IMG-0040.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Admiral_dk on September 09, 2021, 10:58:11 PM
Looks great Chris - but I .onnestly forgot what the layshafts are doing .... a service function or driving the valves ...  :thinking:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 09, 2021, 11:50:51 PM
Looks great Chris - but I .onnestly forgot what the layshafts are doing .... a service function or driving the valves ...  :thinking:
Hi Admiral,
As long as the layshaft remembers...!   :Lol:

Rather than run the eccentrics for the valves from the crankshaft, like we normally see on smaller engines, they have a bevel gear set on the crankshaft that drives a shaft that goes up to the lay shaft halfway up the engine, with a matching bevel gear set on the lay shaft. That keeps the lay shaft turning at the same speed and in sync with the crankshaft. The lay shaft has the eccentrics for the valves as well as the drive for the governor.


I think there are a few reasons for seperating it out like this - they get the eccentrics off the crankshaft wo the crankshaft bearings can be right in by the cranks, less room needed on the crankshaft to keep the engine shorter, gets the eccentrics out where they can be maintained and oiled easily, keeps the rods from the eccentrics to the valves shorter (by 20 feet) so less flex, and gets the eccentrics vertical and out even with the valve cranks (uses Corliss valves with bell cranks on the outside of the cylinders, and the largest cylinder is over 8 feet in diameter).

The Allis engine that I saw in Boston had the same basic layout, but rather than a gear driven lay shaft, they have two cranks, one at each end of the crankshaft and 90 degrees offset end to end, to drive the lay shaft.

Hope that helps!Chris :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Captain Jerry on September 10, 2021, 03:26:27 AM
Speed it up a bit, can you? I'd like to see it finished but I'm getting old.


Jerry
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 10, 2021, 03:46:33 AM
Speed it up a bit, can you? I'd like to see it finished but I'm getting old.


Jerry


I'll put some extra sugar in the shop elves beer, get them moving faster!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: ddmckee54 on September 10, 2021, 04:22:42 PM
With the extra sugar in the beer and the extra speed, you can put them to work hollowing out all those solid brass parts.  That should knock a couple of pounds off of that 46.5 lbs.  Not to mentions giving them piles and piles of that shiny brass swarf.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 10, 2021, 05:19:40 PM
With the extra sugar in the beer and the extra speed, you can put them to work hollowing out all those solid brass parts.  That should knock a couple of pounds off of that 46.5 lbs.  Not to mentions giving them piles and piles of that shiny brass swarf.

Don
Didn't work - now the elves are too fat to fit in the narrow spaces, and too lazy to get off the couch. But they can text really fast!  :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 10, 2021, 05:20:38 PM
Well, without the elves help, got the last of the lay shaft brackets all shaped and installed:
(https://i.postimg.cc/FRDpRTTJ/IMG-0043.jpg)
Now I can take them back off and give them a coat of the spray paint...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Admiral_dk on September 10, 2021, 07:11:56 PM
Quote
Hope that helps!Chris :cheers:

Oh yes it does - and makes quite good sense too  :cheers:

Per
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Brian Rupnow on September 10, 2021, 07:50:08 PM
Chris---I hope that when this is finished that you and the elves get a very large bottle of something alcoholic, and just kick back and marvel at what you have built.---Excellent work, as usual.---Brian
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 10, 2021, 08:17:48 PM
Chris---I hope that when this is finished that you and the elves get a very large bottle of something alcoholic, and just kick back and marvel at what you have built.---Excellent work, as usual.---Brian
Thanks Brian,
A friend of mine used to have a local micro-brewery till he sold off and moved south. Every year he would make a batch of very strong Belgian abbey-style ale and give large bottles to all his friends. One year I called it his Ninja-Ale, since it was so smooth that you didn't now anything was wrong till you tried to stand up, and it would sneak up and whack you (me) in the back of the head!   :DrinkPint: This year I'll have to find a substitute.... I'd have some of the elves beer, but opening that many teeny little cans is a pain.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 10, 2021, 08:47:01 PM
And with a little color on the lay shaft brackets:
(https://i.postimg.cc/DZdPSncZ/IMG-0047.jpg)
Next up? Um, think I am going to work on the con-rods and crossheads next, then come back to the drive shaft for the lay shaft gears - already made the bevel gears, but the brackets and bearings need to be made on that. Thinking that I should get the conrods made before there is too much blocking access to them....
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on September 10, 2021, 09:07:43 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: ddmckee54 on September 10, 2021, 10:39:43 PM
About all those teeny-tiny cans...

I was going to suggest that you've got a 3D printer and a machine shop.  Just print a holder that would line up a couple dozen cans in a neat row, and machine a nice stainless steel can opener to open them all at once.  Then I realized that you'd probably only get one or two of those open cans poured into a decent sized mug before the elves realized that there were pre-opened cans of beer - just sitting around.

Since they're shop elves and not shop gnomes, they would probably at least replace the open can with a full can - to be opened for the next round.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 10, 2021, 10:50:03 PM
About all those teeny-tiny cans...

I was going to suggest that you've got a 3D printer and a machine shop.  Just print a holder that would line up a couple dozen cans in a neat row, and machine a nice stainless steel can opener to open them all at once.  Then I realized that you'd probably only get one or two of those open cans poured into a decent sized mug before the elves realized that there were pre-opened cans of beer - just sitting around.

Since they're shop elves and not shop gnomes, they would probably at least replace the open can with a full can - to be opened for the next round.

Don
I think you've invented a perpetual motion machine!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 10, 2021, 10:50:22 PM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Craig DeShong on September 11, 2021, 01:57:58 PM
Chris
I haven’t commented much, though I have been following along religiously. Your work is outstanding, and the model keeps looking better and better, if that is even possible.   :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 11, 2021, 08:59:40 PM
Chris
I haven’t commented much, though I have been following along religiously. Your work is outstanding, and the model keeps looking better and better, if that is even possible.   :ThumbsUp:
Thanks Craig, much appreciated!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 12, 2021, 04:54:54 PM
Yesterday our RC club was off to the big boat show at the Buffalo Launch Club on Grand Island (in the river between Lake Erie and Lake Ontario, where Niagara Falls is). Lots of fun looking at all the antique powerboats and cars, plus we were running in the pool.

Today back on the Holly model, starting in on the connecting rods. The other day I got the drawings generated for the con rods and the crossheads - those crossheads are going to be a good mini-project in themselves, the connect the conrods, piston rods, and the four pump rods, with bearings out the sides to ride in the guides on the two engine frames.
So, this morning I got the blanks for the con rods cut to rough length, and started turning the first one. First got the center and the smaller upper end turned,
(https://i.postimg.cc/258KTfpt/IMG-0049.jpg)
then the larger bottom end (both ends will get milled with flats both sides, and u-shaped bearing straps wrap around them).
(https://i.postimg.cc/fLVgnjRj/IMG-0048.jpg)
Here is the first one turned, ready to start number two
(https://i.postimg.cc/LsC0b028/IMG-0050.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on September 12, 2021, 07:08:48 PM
rod blank looks good Chris!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

re flats on rod ends - I made a silly error on the last rod of this style I made for a two cyl mill engine. I did the flats on one end of both rods, no issue, same setups. Then I set up for the opposite end, first rod. Started cutting, then realized I had not clocked / indexed the cuts to the first cut end to align the flats!  :facepalm:

I know this has never happened to anyone on this forum   ::) :embarassed:, but just mentioning in case. Happy clocking!  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 12, 2021, 07:13:15 PM
rod blank looks good Chris!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

re flats on rod ends - I made a silly error on the last rod of this style I made for a two cyl mill engine. I did the flats on one end of both rods, no issue, same setups. Then I set up for the opposite end, first rod. Started cutting, then realized I had not clocked / indexed the cuts to the first cut end to align the flats!  :facepalm:

I know this has never happened to anyone on this forum   ::) :embarassed: , but just mentioning in case. Happy clocking!  :Lol:
Tick Tock, Tick Tock, Tock Tick - Damn! 
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on September 12, 2021, 07:14:59 PM
Nice start on the connecting rods, Chris.  You just keep cranking out the parts!  Pretty soon you'll have an engine or something  :Lol: :ThumbsUp:

 :popcorn: :popcorn:

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 12, 2021, 08:57:22 PM
Nice start on the connecting rods, Chris.  You just keep cranking out the parts!  Pretty soon you'll have an engine or something  :Lol: :ThumbsUp:

 :popcorn: :popcorn:

Kim
Pretty soon, several more months at least and it will be recognizeable!   :Lol:

And I think I waited a little too long to check the level of the 5 gallon catch bucket under my cyclone dust separator on the shop vac - took a look, and found it was almost overflowing! A little more and it would have backed up into the vacuum. Before taking it out, I weighed it, including bucket it was 57.5 pounds....   :o   Guess I waited a project too long, forget the last time that I emptied it, prefer to take it out when less than 1/2 full.

Anyone want a nice steel-brass-bronze-aluminum bar stock kit? Just a LITTLE assembly required!   :ROFL:   Maybe I can take it to Home Depot and ask for my money back on this big bucket of mis-mixed paint!

(https://i.postimg.cc/BvvGKLJL/IMG-0051.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RReid on September 13, 2021, 12:04:55 AM
Next skill to learn - Powder Metallurgy. :whoohoo:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 13, 2021, 12:08:42 AM
Next skill to learn - Powder Metallurgy. :whoohoo:
Hmmm, run some leads out to the car, plug in the Mr Fusion....  :ThumbsDown:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 13, 2021, 03:35:37 PM
All three connecting rods are turned, and ready to flatten/shape the ends...
(https://i.postimg.cc/GpCvJ5KV/IMG-0052.jpg)
The lower end has the outer forks of the yoke built into it, with a block/wedge arrangement to hold the bearing blocks. The upper end has the center bottom portion of the yoke built in, the outer cap/yoke is a separate piece at that end. They used a shallow wedge block with screws either side to tighten the bearing halves.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on September 13, 2021, 05:20:52 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 13, 2021, 08:28:06 PM
Thanks CNR!

Got started on flattening off the ends of the con rods, two of the three have one side of the big end trimmed down so far...
(https://i.postimg.cc/Kzx985WS/IMG-0053.jpg)
I was going to hold it by the center shaft and mill both sides vertically in one clamping, but the shaft is tapered so holding it was not secure that way. So, will do one side at a time, and have to re-level it for sides 2 through 4. Side two of the first end will be easy, can set it on the parallels in the vise. For first side of the other end to match, will have to set up a block out on the mill table to level it with.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on September 13, 2021, 09:11:29 PM
"For first side of the other end to match, will have to set up a block out on the mill table to level it with."

You wouldn't just get two >preferably sober< shop elves at the far end to eyeball it flat?.............wait, what am I saying.........  :slap: myself in the head for even suggesting that!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 13, 2021, 09:37:56 PM
"For first side of the other end to match, will have to set up a block out on the mill table to level it with."

You wouldn't just get two >preferably sober< shop elves at the far end to eyeball it flat?.............wait, what am I saying.........  :slap: myself in the head for even suggesting that!   :Lol:
Even sober, Murphy's Law says the shop elf would have eyes like Marty Feldman in Young Frankenstien...  "Yessss, Masster, That looks straight to me!"   (Mill this way...)
 :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Craig DeShong on September 13, 2021, 09:51:08 PM

Anyone want a nice steel-brass-bronze-aluminum bar stock kit? Just a LITTLE assembly required!   :ROFL:   Maybe I can take it to Home Depot and ask for my money back on this big bucket of mis-mixed paint!

(https://i.postimg.cc/BvvGKLJL/IMG-0051.jpg)

You get to know your metal suppliers pretty well after many repeat sales; a while ago, in a clear plastic bag, I bagged up a bunch of aluminum tailings off the lathe, took it to my metal supplier, claimed the part they sold was defective and I wanted a refund.  The new girl in the office nearly had a heart attack, but the long time folks that work behind the counter nearly died laughing.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 13, 2021, 10:31:30 PM

Anyone want a nice steel-brass-bronze-aluminum bar stock kit? Just a LITTLE assembly required!   :ROFL:   Maybe I can take it to Home Depot and ask for my money back on this big bucket of mis-mixed paint!

(https://i.postimg.cc/BvvGKLJL/IMG-0051.jpg)

You get to know your metal suppliers pretty well after many repeat sales; a while ago, in a clear plastic bag, I bagged up a bunch of aluminum tailings off the lathe, took it to my metal supplier, claimed the part they sold was defective and I wanted a refund.  The new girl in the office nearly had a heart attack, but the long time folks that work behind the counter nearly died laughing.
Perfect!   :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 13, 2021, 11:09:31 PM
First of second sides milled down to thickness...
(https://i.postimg.cc/qMC4n8w6/IMG-0054.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 14, 2021, 06:08:57 PM
With all the big end flats milled in, switched the parts around to do the small ends. To get them clocked level with the big ends, used a stack of blocks to set them.

(https://i.postimg.cc/Xvs4b349/IMG-0057.jpg)
One more of those to go, then next step will be to square up the sides of the small ends, they fit inside a U-shaped bearing retainer.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on September 14, 2021, 08:16:54 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

 A solid stack of blocks beats a shop gnome's vernier eyeball any day!  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 14, 2021, 09:06:05 PM
Next step partially done, sawed/drilled out the bulk of the center of the big ends, will set up on mill to trim out the openings to size.
(https://i.postimg.cc/RVrYFFC4/IMG-0059.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 14, 2021, 10:35:45 PM
That step is done, milled the openings in the big end jaws one at a time - just milled on the jaw on the back side of the vise, then flipped the part over to do the other jaw to the same handwheel setting. That did two things - ensured that the opening was centered, and kept any springiness of the thin jaw end from coming into play since the cutter was pushing out on the jaw against the vise jaw, not pulling it in away from the vise jaw.
(https://i.postimg.cc/4y3p4pKB/IMG-0060.jpg)
All three up to this stage:
(https://i.postimg.cc/fygmVkmZ/IMG-0061.jpg)
Next I think will start on the outer U-cap for the small end. That one will be the same basic shape as the one on the big end, but with square sides rather than turned round - thats how the original machine had it.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on September 14, 2021, 10:48:32 PM
Those are some really short tuning forks, Chris.  The ones I've seen have much longer tines  :LittleDevil:

Nice progress on your rods there!  :popcorn:

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 14, 2021, 11:18:01 PM
Those are some really short tuning forks, Chris.  The ones I've seen have much longer tines  :LittleDevil:

Nice progress on your rods there!  :popcorn:

Kim
Okay, that got me to go back into the shop and tap two of them together - they do have a nice high pitch tone!   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steamer on September 15, 2021, 12:08:59 AM
Geez Chris you're flying thru this!     Rods look great!

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 15, 2021, 12:26:24 AM
Geez Chris you're flying thru this!     Rods look great!

Dave
Thanks!  Only 4 or 5 more months, give or take 4 or 5!    :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Roger B on September 15, 2021, 05:06:15 PM
Splendid as ever  :praise2:  :praise2:  :wine1: I keep having to remind myself of the machines you are using  ::)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: scc on September 15, 2021, 09:14:32 PM
 :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:Still lost for words :praise2:       Terry
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 15, 2021, 09:59:47 PM
Thanks Terry/Roger, great to have you guys along. Nothing done on the engine today, been puttering around on other stuff and out for long lunch with friends.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 16, 2021, 03:38:11 PM
This morning got back in the shop again and trimmed some square bar down to the dimensions for the piece at the big end of the con rods:
(https://i.postimg.cc/zD7kbBXW/IMG-0066.jpg)
That was then cut into three pieces, each trimmed to fit the openings in the forks, and the assembly drilled for the cross bolt. At the big ends there is just one bolt, at the small ends there will be two.
(https://i.postimg.cc/hPG19BfY/IMG-0069.jpg)
Above these blocks will be a wedge piece with short screws at either end to position it to tighten the bearing halves.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on September 16, 2021, 04:40:34 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Don1966 on September 16, 2021, 05:56:47 PM
Your still the man DOG!………. :Love:



  :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 16, 2021, 06:19:21 PM
Voof!


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: gary.a.ayres on September 16, 2021, 09:48:23 PM
Wow - this has come on! Looks amazing...

And with a little color on the lay shaft brackets:
(https://i.postimg.cc/DZdPSncZ/IMG-0047.jpg)
Next up? Um, think I am going to work on the con-rods and crossheads next, then come back to the drive shaft for the lay shaft gears - already made the bevel gears, but the brackets and bearings need to be made on that. Thinking that I should get the conrods made before there is too much blocking access to them....
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 17, 2021, 02:36:03 PM
Got a start on the U-shaped caps that go on the small ends of the con-rods. Making them just like the big end ones, but these I am leaving connected together for better holding in the vise. Once the first is done, it will be cut off so the second two can be done together. Started by drilling the inside ends of the slot, then sawing out the bulk of the metal before milling to finished size.
(https://i.postimg.cc/cJ7bxkdZ/IMG-0072.jpg)
First one taken out to size, ready to cut off the bar
(https://i.postimg.cc/1t9Yf0zF/IMG-0073.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on September 17, 2021, 04:22:16 PM
That's neat.  I like the way you gang your parts together like that.  I can see how it makes holding them easier.  I'm going to have to learn to do that someday!  Maybe when I grow up I'll learn how!  :popcorn: :popcorn:

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 17, 2021, 04:56:27 PM
That's neat.  I like the way you gang your parts together like that.  I can see how it makes holding them easier.  I'm going to have to learn to do that someday!  Maybe when I grow up I'll learn how!  :popcorn: :popcorn:

Kim
Something else I learned from Kozo, I think. Even on single parts, leaving them on the longer bar makes clamping in the vise a lot more secure.  And growing up is highly over-rated - acting like a kid is a lot more fun!!  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 17, 2021, 07:53:17 PM
All three end caps are done and attached to the con-rods:
(https://i.postimg.cc/qMzMZSTN/IMG-0074.jpg)
Next can start in on the bronze bearings....
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RReid on September 17, 2021, 08:26:33 PM
Very Nice! :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: ddmckee54 on September 17, 2021, 10:21:18 PM
Chris:

What locks the set screws on the adjusting wedges in place so they don't vibrate loose?  More elf-spit, or a lock nut?  Those wedges are going to get a hammering, even if this is just a model.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 17, 2021, 10:39:17 PM
Chris:

What locks the set screws on the adjusting wedges in place so they don't vibrate loose?  More elf-spit, or a lock nut?  Those wedges are going to get a hammering, even if this is just a model.

Don
Hi Don,
There is a bolt on either end of the adjusting wedge, with the wedge threaded. They dont show any locknuts, which they do in other places, so I assume that they tighten each one down onto the outer strap and have that tension lock it in place. Here is a snippet from the little end of the con-rod, the big end is basically the same, just bigger. This is from the original builders plans:

(https://i.postimg.cc/SKqwMYQW/Con-Rod-End.jpg)

One interesting tidbit is the little spacer at the center between the two halves of the bearing, have not seen that on other engines before.
Chris
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Zephyrin on September 18, 2021, 10:04:19 AM
if you plan to run this model, this screw or some form of locking is necessary for the bronze bearings, not only for appearance!
On 2 of my machines with have a similar wedge lock, but without screw, slipping and loosening occurs regularly while running...


Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 18, 2021, 01:52:53 PM
Hi Zephryn,


On engines with wedges like yours, I have often seen a small screw in the side, clamping down on the side face of the wedge to hold it in place. On the Holly they put the screws at the end into the long axis of the wedge. Fortunately the scale of this model is large enough that I can put in the screws and have them look right.

EDIT: Here is a picture of the side screw type that I was trying to describe, this is from the big beam engine in Hamilton Canada:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Y9JxjxVr/Wedge-Screw.jpg)

And found a close picture of the con rod on the Allis engine in Boston that has the wedge adjustment screws on both sides like the Holly engine does. In this one the wedge does not extend past the U-shaped strap, and there is a screw on each end of the wedge to adjust and lock it down.
(https://i.postimg.cc/66nrYngZ/Allis-Crank-Wedge.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 18, 2021, 04:29:00 PM
Started shaping the bearings for the con-rods, began with the small end bearings by squaring up a length of bronze rod to the outside of the flanges that keep the bearing centered in the con rod end. Next will cut the slots to the width of the rods, with one of them angled for the adjusting wedge.
(https://i.postimg.cc/x1bpfWhJ/IMG-0077.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 18, 2021, 08:12:47 PM
More shaping on the bearings - slotted the sides and top to fit the U-straps. Then rotated the part inside the collet to take off a 45 degree chamfer to let the inside corners of the U sit down all the way, and took an angled cut along the bottom for the adjusting wedge to sit against. Just prepped another length of bronze for the big end bearings, which will look the same, when those are shaped also I will cut them all apart and trim them to final thickness, and cut the bearings in half with a fine jewelers saw.

(https://i.postimg.cc/bwf8hcwr/IMG-0078.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on September 18, 2021, 11:48:31 PM
Very pretty work, Chris!  Love the string of bearings!  :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 19, 2021, 03:03:31 PM
Thanks Kim! The string is about to become a nice set of Elf beads...

Got the bearings cut apart, and turned the end of my little expanding arbor to fit the hole (arbor is a length of brass with slots cut down the end, and with a center hole drilled/tapped, countersunk for the screw head, and the end of a socket head screw was turned to a slight taper so the farther it is run into the hole the more it expands the end of the arbor). With the parts held in the arbor, they could be trimmed back on the sawn ends.
(https://i.postimg.cc/1z9yLtxm/IMG-0082.jpg)
Now have a pile of bearings ready to be split in half with a thin jewelers saw blade
(https://i.postimg.cc/Pq2dhjhm/IMG-0083.jpg)




Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dan Rowe on September 19, 2021, 03:31:37 PM
One interesting tidbit is the little spacer at the center between the two halves of the bearing, have not seen that on other engines before.

Chris, shim packs or spacers are very common on large babbitt bearings. They are on Sulzer bearings and hydraulic bolts are used to secure the main bearings. I think the way the wedge system works is the small end of the wedge is tightened first to compress the shim pack then the bolt on the big end is tightened to act as a lock bolt.

The crank bearings on the later Shays had a wedge adjuster. This is a two bolt flange with a shaft that has a square end that adjusts the wedge. There is a collar on the shaft behind the two bolt flange. The flange locks the collar in place after the bearing is adjusted.

The conrods of Shays had a gib and cotter system like the Hamilton engine.

Nice work as always.

Cheers Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 19, 2021, 05:07:52 PM
One interesting tidbit is the little spacer at the center between the two halves of the bearing, have not seen that on other engines before.

Chris, shim packs or spacers are very common on large babbitt bearings. They are on Sulzer bearings and hydraulic bolts are used to secure the main bearings. I think the way the wedge system works is the small end of the wedge is tightened first to compress the shim pack then the bolt on the big end is tightened to act as a lock bolt.

The crank bearings on the later Shays had a wedge adjuster. This is a two bolt flange with a shaft that has a square end that adjusts the wedge. There is a collar on the shaft behind the two bolt flange. The flange locks the collar in place after the bearing is adjusted.

The conrods of Shays had a gib and cotter system like the Hamilton engine.

Nice work as always.

Cheers Dan
So the shim pack would keep the bearing halves from rattling around in the yoke housing if the bearing wore back from the journal pin, only movement would be the bearing on the journal. Had not realized that would happen, but it makes a lot of sense. And the order of tightening makes sense too.

Thanks Dan!!
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 19, 2021, 08:59:54 PM
Measured for and cut out the three wedges for the big end bearings - again shaped them as a group so there was something for the vise to grip on, then cut them apart. They were cut to be just shorter than the gap they go into, and after fitting I can file off one end or the other, depending on the fit of the wedges.
(https://i.postimg.cc/9f5hyYtN/IMG-0084.jpg)
After cutting them apart, each was drilled/tapped for a 1-72 screw all the way through. The yoke ends were drilled for a clearance fit.
(https://i.postimg.cc/TPVX05t2/IMG-0085.jpg)
First one all assembled, works well!   :cartwheel:   You can see the gap at the small end of the wedge next to the side of the yoke. The wedges fit inside the projections on the end of the bearing so all the parts are held in alignment.
(https://i.postimg.cc/vBGwN8Kr/IMG-0086.jpg)
Two more to get assembled, then repeat the whole process on the small ends of the con rods.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 19, 2021, 09:01:43 PM
Oh, and I have not cut the bearings in half yet - wanted to get the wedges fitted at the full size of the bearing block, and its too hard to get in to the crankshaft for a lot of measurements and trial fits with all the engine frames in place.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RReid on September 20, 2021, 12:30:57 AM
That's a very cool assembly! Functional, attractive, and true to prototype. :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on September 20, 2021, 01:30:43 AM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on September 20, 2021, 02:14:59 AM
Chris......

I see you have mentioned  that the bushes are yet to be split, however are these tapered wedges, not only designed to compensate for wear in split bushes?.....

Derek  :cheers:  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 20, 2021, 02:56:34 AM
Chris......

I see you have mentioned  that the bushes are yet to be split, however are these tapered wedges, not only designed to compensate for wear in split bushes?.....

Derek  :cheers: :popcorn:
Um, yes? I don't think I understand your question. The wedges are adjustable to move one half of the bearing closer to the other, the wedge and the bottom of the bearing have complementary angles to keep the bearing in alignment. Is there another part of your question that got left off?
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on September 20, 2021, 04:10:12 AM
Sorry, the word 'position' would have been more appropriate ...so

Just wondering how these Engineer engine builders found the correct 'wedge on wedge' or 'wedge on a parallel' force, to gauge the position?

If they were considering a say 12" diameter journal pin........did they use 1/8" diameter lead wire........tighten up to compress the wire & guess, then strip down to confirm a 0.003" lead thickness so conclude a ballpark 1/4 a thousandth per inch on that 12" pin be acceptable as a clearance?

Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 20, 2021, 02:20:19 PM
Sorry, the word 'position' would have been more appropriate ...so

Just wondering how these Engineer engine builders found the correct 'wedge on wedge' or 'wedge on a parallel' force, to gauge the position?

If they were considering a say 12" diameter journal pin........did they use 1/8" diameter lead wire........tighten up to compress the wire & guess, then strip down to confirm a 0.003" lead thickness so conclude a ballpark 1/4 a thousandth per inch on that 12" pin be acceptable as a clearance?

Derek
Good question, I don't know. Maybe Dan or Dave do and can answer this one.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: internal_fire on September 20, 2021, 08:46:17 PM
So the shim pack would keep the bearing halves from rattling around in the yoke housing if the bearing wore back from the journal pin, only movement would be the bearing on the journal.

I don't think that is quite the right interpretation. The babbitt is always built into a bearing shell which does not wear. The bearing shell halves should never move even as the babbitt wears.

Shim packs have been used for a long time on steam tractors, Model A Fords, and others. The primary reason for the shims is to allow the bearing to be tightened up and re-scraped without pouring new babbitt.

Gene
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 20, 2021, 09:46:15 PM
So the shim pack would keep the bearing halves from rattling around in the yoke housing if the bearing wore back from the journal pin, only movement would be the bearing on the journal.

I don't think that is quite the right interpretation. The babbitt is always built into a bearing shell which does not wear. The bearing shell halves should never move even as the babbitt wears.

Shim packs have been used for a long time on steam tractors, Model A Fords, and others. The primary reason for the shims is to allow the bearing to be tightened up and re-scraped without pouring new babbitt.

Gene
I was thinking of the bearing shell and babbit as a unit (even though they are made of separate pieces), and that as the babbitt wore the shell could be moved in to compensate. As you said - that would tighten it up. The shims would keep the halves from moving until the engineers wanted it to when tightening it up.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dan Rowe on September 20, 2021, 10:25:26 PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/SKqwMYQW/Con-Rod-End.jpg)

Chris this is a two piece bearing. The dotted lines indicate radial slots cut across the face of the bearing sections to lock the babbitt in place when it is poured. There is not a separate bearing shell.

As Gene mentioned the thickness of the shim pack will adjust for wear when the bearings are re-scraped.

It is very cool that the wedge adjusters work on the model.

Cheers Dan

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 20, 2021, 10:28:12 PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/SKqwMYQW/Con-Rod-End.jpg)

Chris this is a two piece bearing. The dotted lines indicate radial slots cut across the face of the bearing sections to lock the babbitt in place when it is poured. There is not a separate bearing shell.

As Gene mentioned the thickness of the shim pack will adjust for wear when the bearings are re-scraped.

It is very cool that the wedge adjusters work on the model.

Cheers Dan
I know it is a two-piece shell in the real engine - as I mentioned in my last post I was considering it one piece for each half for the model, and even in the real one the two pieces of the one half move together as the wedge is moved.  I think we are all on the same page, just using different terms.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on September 20, 2021, 11:22:23 PM
Yes, clearly a two piece round shell, probably bronze with the segmented bore

If this journal pin was 12 1/2" diameter, the bearing shells would have been supported in an iron box, and a ~~ 12" diameter hardwood bung supported on axis as the Babbit Metal was poured into the preheated bearing shells assembly

So the hardwood round bung being sacrificial, burning a little, but allowing easy removal prior to boring

It is an assumption, however the bearing [still supported in the iron box] finally line bored to a predetermined clearance for the 12 1/2" diameter pin

[I am familiar with cross hatched bearing scraping & bluing & scraping & bluing again [& again & again], however not so sure  :shrug: that these journal bearings would have been individually hand scraped]

Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 21, 2021, 12:35:15 AM
Back on the model - made up the three small end wedges same way as the big end ones.  But, mismeasured and they came out too thin.  :hammerbash:




So, left that alone, poured a big mug of nice fresh cold cider (its prime apple season here, big apple orchards around town) and going in to watch some TV, try again tomorrow!



Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: ddmckee54 on September 21, 2021, 04:42:57 PM
Chris:

Here's another theory as to why the wedges came out too thin.

Shop Gnomes, impersonating your loyal Shop Elves - and probably sent by some jealous hack, tweaked the dials on your CNC machine when you weren't looking.  Thus when you Counted the Number of Cranks, you got the resulting too thin wedges.  Rest easy with your cider, it obviously wasn't your fault.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 21, 2021, 04:50:27 PM
Chris:

Here's another theory as to why the wedges came out too thin.

Shop Gnomes, impersonating your loyal Shop Elves - and probably sent by some jealous hack, tweaked the dials on your CNC machine when you weren't looking.  Thus when you Counted the Number of Cranks, you got the resulting too thin wedges.  Rest easy with your cider, it obviously wasn't your fault.

Don
At least the cider was great!


This morning I made a new set of wedges, fit is good this time. Just need to drill and tap them...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 21, 2021, 07:52:30 PM
All the wedges and yokes are drilled/tapped for the adjusting screws
(https://i.postimg.cc/hPtX01gp/IMG-0087.jpg)
started in sawing the bearings in half with a fine jewelers saw, once that is all done will be able to fit the con rods to the crankshaft and start in on the crossheads.
(https://i.postimg.cc/gcDwRT9x/IMG-0088.jpg)
The crossheads are quite complex assemblies, they will be a good project in themselves. The four holes around the center are where the pump rods join, and there is a bearing block each side that ride in the guides on the engine frames.

(https://i.postimg.cc/t417KRs6/Crosshead.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on September 21, 2021, 10:59:36 PM
Yeah, that DOES look like a bit of a challenge!  But I'm confident you'll get there  :popcorn: :popcorn:

Nice looking bearings too! :)

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: MJM460 on September 21, 2021, 11:48:28 PM
Hi Chris, the conrods look great with all the bearings installed.

Do you have to insert the little shims to maintain the spacing and maintain the bearing dimensions after the saw cut?

MJM460

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 22, 2021, 12:19:18 AM
Hi Chris, the conrods look great with all the bearings installed.

Do you have to insert the little shims to maintain the spacing and maintain the bearing dimensions after the saw cut?

MJM460
At this scale the proper size for the shims would be like swarf! The saw blade is only about 10 thou. I'll just put it together over the crank pin and adjust the screws on the wedge for a good fit.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steamer on September 22, 2021, 12:32:19 AM
Wow Chris, that's amazing on a Sherline!!!   I Havent forgotten you>>>>>  PESTERED!

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 22, 2021, 12:38:37 AM
Wow Chris, that's amazing on a Sherline!!!   I Havent forgotten you>>>>>  PESTERED!

Dave


And I have most of the valve motion parts done and animated on that other project....


These two posts should confuse the swarf out of everyone else!   :LittleDevil:  All will be revealed in due time!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steamer on September 22, 2021, 12:50:59 AM
 8)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on September 22, 2021, 12:51:30 AM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Let the confusion flow!  :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 22, 2021, 12:54:18 AM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Let the confusion flow!  :cheers:


Buuuurrp!  Oh, that was from the cider flowing...!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steamer on September 22, 2021, 12:58:26 AM
 :mischief: :mischief:

cnr....you don't know the half of it!     :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 22, 2021, 01:12:00 AM
:mischief: :mischief:

cnr....you don't know the half of it!     :lolb:
Dave, you only know two thirds, there is a non engine project going too, pics on that Sunday!!    O:-)    :LittleDevil:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on September 22, 2021, 06:00:56 AM
Wow! So much clandestine activity going on here!   :naughty:
The suspense is killing me and I didn't even know something was going on till just now!
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Elam Works on September 22, 2021, 01:52:31 PM
When the Holly is complete, I wonder how much cider it will pump per hour?
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 22, 2021, 03:06:04 PM
When the Holly is complete, I wonder how much cider it will pump per hour?
Have to test that!
Hmmm, will the volume of Guinness per hour be the same as for cider? Hmmm, have to test that too!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 22, 2021, 03:06:53 PM
Wow! So much clandestine activity going on here!   :naughty:
The suspense is killing me and I didn't even know something was going on till just now!
Kim
Shop elves are horrible at keeping secrets, so it won't be long...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: ddmckee54 on September 22, 2021, 04:12:46 PM
When the Holly is complete, I wonder how much cider it will pump per hour?
Have to test that!
Hmmm, will the volume of Guinness per hour be the same as for cider? Hmmm, have to test that too!   :Lol:

Many years ago the company that I work for built a working model of a batching system to demonstrate what we did for a living in a manner that our spouses and significant others would be able to easily understand.  We made a PLC controlled hot chocolate machine for use at the company Christmas party. 

The system pumped hot water into a mixer, added the hot chocolate mix into the mixer from an overhead bin - extra chocolate was an option, mixed the hot chocolate, and then pumped it into a cup.  You also had the option of adding marshmallows - or even extra marshmallows.  You could even get a shot of Peppermint Schnapps pumped into the cup to make a Peppermint Patty.  It was the hit of the Christmas party, and for the next several years when the Christmas party was announced the first question asked was "Is the hot chocolate machine going to be there?"

Speaking as the guy that built the damned thing, and consequently wound up cleaning it every year, don't EVER pump anything other than water through the Holly.  The hot chocolate machine was a royal PITA to clean, and it wasn't NEARLY as complex as the Holly.  It wasn't exactly designed for easy cleaning, kinda like the Holly.  You and the elves will be disassembling and washing that thing for weeks with all its' bits and pieces.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 22, 2021, 04:38:38 PM
When the Holly is complete, I wonder how much cider it will pump per hour?
Have to test that!
Hmmm, will the volume of Guinness per hour be the same as for cider? Hmmm, have to test that too!   :Lol:

Many years ago the company that I work for built a working model of a batching system to demonstrate what we did for a living in a manner that our spouses and significant others would be able to easily understand.  We made a PLC controlled hot chocolate machine for use at the company Christmas party. 

The system pumped hot water into a mixer, added the hot chocolate mix into the mixer from an overhead bin - extra chocolate was an option, mixed the hot chocolate, and then pumped it into a cup.  You also had the option of adding marshmallows - or even extra marshmallows.  You could even get a shot of Peppermint Schnapps pumped into the cup to make a Peppermint Patty.  It was the hit of the Christmas party, and for the next several years when the Christmas party was announced the first question asked was "Is the hot chocolate machine going to be there?"

Speaking as the guy that built the damned thing, and consequently wound up cleaning it every year, don't EVER pump anything other than water through the Holly.  The hot chocolate machine was a royal PITA to clean, and it wasn't NEARLY as complex as the Holly.  It wasn't exactly designed for easy cleaning, kinda like the Holly.  You and the elves will be disassembling and washing that thing for weeks with all its' bits and pieces.

Don
Water only it is!  Though now I want a hot chocolate!  Yum...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 22, 2021, 07:34:22 PM
Today I got the connecting rod bearings all split, and the con rods assembled onto the engine. A bit fiddly to get all the small pieces and screws in place without dropping them too many times into the pump level.  :insane:   I marked all the pieces so at least I'd know which orientation they needed to be to match up.
(https://i.postimg.cc/qv3JQdXw/IMG-0091.jpg)
Overall shot with all three in place, and I put in some lengths of round bar to act as crossheads to keep them in line with the engine frames. All moves clean, no interferences, so very happy with that!
(https://i.postimg.cc/fbQwrg8N/IMG-0092.jpg)

And a quick video of things going round and round and up and down (sounds like a Sesame Street song)
[youtube1]https://youtu.be/SJFTf_STitk[/youtube1]
Now I am going back to the CAD version and generating the plans for the crossheads, so I can work out the order of machining to make them...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 22, 2021, 08:16:59 PM
The crosshead assembly plans are generated from the CAD model, thought I'd give a run through of how it all goes together. I am thinking that the best way to make it will be just like they did, other than the center section will be machined out of solid rather than cast.
As shown earlier, here is the full assembly:
(https://i.postimg.cc/t417KRs6/Crosshead.jpg)
At the core of it is a cross bar. The sections shown by the blue arrow are tapered, big end at the right, small end at the left, and the left section is smaller overall than the right, so that it can be slipped through the center section and retained by the wedge marked with the red arrow. Both ends are turned small for the bearing blocks that ride in the frame guides, with the tips threaded (green arrow) for a retaining nut.
(https://i.postimg.cc/FRn82YhL/Crosshead-Assembly-1.jpg)
Here the center section has been slid on. The four vertical holes around the base will take the four vertical rods coming up from the pump plunger. The shaft out the top is the piston rod, held on by the wedge marked in green.

(https://i.postimg.cc/FFwsSR0z/Crosshead-Assembly-2.jpg)
Here the bearing blocks at the end have been added. They have wedge shaped bits at the outer ends to adjust to the guides in the frames.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sxk8gbQf/Crosshead-Assembly-3.jpg)
and finally the retaining nuts on the ends of the center rod added on.
(https://i.postimg.cc/3rkxWp4z/Crosshead-Assembly-4.jpg)
Should be interesting to make this all up - need three, one per cylinder. For scale, the piston rod out the top is 1/4" diameter.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dan Rowe on September 22, 2021, 10:22:51 PM
What is the taper? It might work out to use a large taper pin to make the shafts, then the matching taper pin reamer could be used for the crosshead. US taper pins are 1/4" to the foot or 1:48 taper. metric pins have a 1:50 taper.

Cheers Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on September 22, 2021, 11:12:37 PM
Excellent video of things going up and down and around, Chris!  That must be a pretty good feeling right there :)

Like with everything else with this build, this will be yet another challenging part - times three!  :o

Keep building up and pretty soon you'll have to raise the ceiling in your shop!

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 22, 2021, 11:20:38 PM
What is the taper? It might work out to use a large taper pin to make the shafts, then the matching taper pin reamer could be used for the crosshead. US taper pins are 1/4" to the foot or 1:48 taper. metric pins have a 1:50 taper.

Cheers Dan
Hi Dan,
The taper on the original engine is shown as 3/8" per foot. The only taper pins I have are hardened, and much smaller - at model scale the largest end of the taper is .421". I figured that I would just use the compound slide on the lathe to turn the taper on the core pin and use same setting to bore the taper in the other piece. Once assembled, it does not need to rotate any more since the bearing blocks on the ends of the pin can rotate on the pin ends - I think they used the wedge to draw up the taper and lock it like we use a morse taper today.


I've been looking over the drawings, and think I have a way to make the center piece with all the projecting bits out of four pieces and silver solder them together, think that will end up easier than trying to mill it out of one chunk with all the partial arcs around it. Thats a lot of the fun of these parts, figuring out how to make them!

Just spent some time on chat then on the phone to one of the tech support guys at Autodesk for my Fusion app, it was misbehaving - he was incredibly helpful and we got it working again without losing any part of the model. Nice to have a support tech really look at things and solve issues without just reading from a script, like "well, uninstall and reinstall everything on your PC. Not helping, well, um, do it again!". This guy was great.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 22, 2021, 11:22:28 PM
Excellent video of things going up and down and around, Chris!  That must be a pretty good feeling right there :)

Like with everything else with this build, this will be yet another challenging part - times three!  :o

Keep building up and pretty soon you'll have to raise the ceiling in your shop!

Kim
I keep waiting for the neighbor to go on a long vacation so I can get the bulldozers in to move his house over 20 feet so I have room to put on another addition!   :LittleDevil:   'Gee Chris, why are all your neighbors houses in a pile at the end of the street?'   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on September 23, 2021, 01:02:05 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

The video was great! The crosshead is an interesting construction. Wedges applied in two directions can cause some interesting force distributions. The original full size engine builders had scale on their side (big masses of iron and steel parts) to fight distortions as a result. I would only suggest very light assembly force be applied to the wedges in the Holly crosshead- or maybe just glue them in place.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on September 23, 2021, 01:47:31 PM
Forgot to mention an idea re making room next door. When you find out the neighbours are to be away, call the local Sikorsky Sky Crane service to move your house, but give them the address and GPS coords of the house next door. A little rotor noise and jet exhaust and the problem's gone! (tidier than a bulldozer and less 'splainin to do. Just remember the phrase "what phone call?)   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Flyboy Jim on September 23, 2021, 01:55:58 PM
Still following along Chris and your build looking great.

I got to wondering. When the Holly Pumping Engine kit showed up at the job site, I wonder if it came with assembly instructions? You know "tab A in slot B" kind of stuff.  :happyreader:

Jim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 23, 2021, 01:59:16 PM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

The video was great! The crosshead is an interesting construction. Wedges applied in two directions can cause some interesting force distributions. The original full size engine builders had scale on their side (big masses of iron and steel parts) to fight distortions as a result. I would only suggest very light assembly force be applied to the wedges in the Holly crosshead- or maybe just glue them in place.
On the crosshead, there is just one wedge at one end of the center piece - it draws up the taper on the core pin. At first I missed the taper on the plans, and went looking for the second wedge. The end bearing blocks each have two tapered blocks, but they are screw-adjustable and just set the width to match the frame opening.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 23, 2021, 02:00:03 PM
Forgot to mention an idea re making room next door. When you find out the neighbours are to be away, call the local Sikorsky Sky Crane service to move your house, but give them the address and GPS coords of the house next door. A little rotor noise and jet exhaust and the problem's gone! (tidier than a bulldozer and less 'splainin to do. Just remember the phrase "what phone call?)   :Lol:
And since the address is the neighbors house, they get the bill, too!!   :LittleDevil:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 23, 2021, 02:02:09 PM
Still following along Chris and your build looking great.

I got to wondering. When the Holly Pumping Engine kit showed up at the job site, I wonder if it came with assembly instructions? You know "tab A in slot B" kind of stuff.  :happyreader:

Jim
Step one: build the crane to lift part A off the flatbed train car....!
Just imagine how many packing peanuts were in the crates...  :o Those really staticky ones that stick all over you...
I remember in the Marion steam shovel catalogs that they said they would send a guy along with the shovel delivery to direct assembly and teach the new crew how to use it.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 23, 2021, 03:14:42 PM
A little time with the bandsaw, and here we have three crosshead 'kits'
(https://i.postimg.cc/J49kmXm5/IMG-0093.jpg)
I'm going to start by turning the upper vertical section first, then the lower cross section, which will get a recess to fit the upper section into.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 23, 2021, 07:32:42 PM
Starting in on the upper section of the crossheads, first trued up the blank ends, drilled for the piston rod, and turned the upper end shape in
(https://i.postimg.cc/pVgqppJq/IMG-0094.jpg)
Thn set up over on the mill with the first part held in a collet block to start milling off the sides...
(https://i.postimg.cc/NGyds1mK/IMG-0095.jpg)
These will become the upper end as shown next to the green arrow from the CAD model
(https://i.postimg.cc/FFwsSR0z/Crosshead-Assembly-2.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: internal_fire on September 23, 2021, 08:03:20 PM
Is that green arrow key the only thing that holds the piston rod in place? Won't be a problem on the model, but it seems like a really weak connection for the full-size pumping engine.

Gene
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 23, 2021, 08:38:54 PM
Is that green arrow key the only thing that holds the piston rod in place? Won't be a problem on the model, but it seems like a really weak connection for the full-size pumping engine.

Gene
Hmmm... - you're right, that does sound odd - let me go check the original plans again...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 23, 2021, 08:48:56 PM
Is that green arrow key the only thing that holds the piston rod in place? Won't be a problem on the model, but it seems like a really weak connection for the full-size pumping engine.

Gene
Hmmm... - you're right, that does sound odd - let me go check the original plans again...
Basically, yes!  The bottom end of the piston rod is tapered, and has a 1-13/16" wide slot for the wedge, matching slot in the crosshead. The wedge is 6" tall, 18" long, and 1-13/16" thick, so in all thats a pretty big wedge. The taper gives the rod a firm seat against downstroke action, which is where the pump plunger is doing more work to force the water out of the chamber and into the pipes, against the pressure in the pipes heading out into the city and up the towers. Less force to draw water in on the upstroke. Still, an interesting design choice.


Just looked at how the Allis engine does it - there they have two piston rods per cylinder, arranged in a line along the crankshaft axis, each has a stepped end and a big nut threaded on it. Completely different setup there.

Well, both obviously were enough for the job, both types of engine ran for 70 or 80 years!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: internal_fire on September 23, 2021, 10:05:44 PM
Good point. Unlike an ordinary engine the forces on the piston rod are somewhat asymmetrical in this application.

Thanks.

Gene
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 23, 2021, 10:47:49 PM
finished up the flattening step on the upper crosshead pieces
(https://i.postimg.cc/K8JTg8M1/IMG-0096.jpg)
makes a good start on the 'kits'
(https://i.postimg.cc/bwzbJtsX/IMG-0097.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Don1966 on September 23, 2021, 10:58:38 PM
Oh yeah! I seen some more silver soldering here waiting to see the final results.    :Love:




 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 24, 2021, 12:57:07 AM
Oh yeah! I seen some more silver soldering here waiting to see the final results.    :Love:




 :cheers:
Don
You see clearly Don!  These first pieces will have matching recesses cut into the center bar, and the end bars (the brass ones) will be cut to fit around the center bars, and all four parts will be silver soldered together. Then I'll have the equivalent of the casting the real one was probably made with.
 :cheers: :cheers: (one from me, one from the elves! )
Chris
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 24, 2021, 03:59:59 PM
Some time on the lathe this morning, got the blanks for the horizontal parts of the crosshead turned to diameter and length, with a step in each end. Also cut off the upper pieces from the bars they were held with and trimmed them to length:

(https://i.postimg.cc/vBpZCc4S/IMG-0100.jpg)
Next step is to cut the recess in the side of the cross pieces to take the bottom of the upper pieces. I'll do this on the lathe, with them held in the 4-jaw. Here is how it will be held, and the way the pieces will fit together once the recess is turned in:
(https://i.postimg.cc/SRCx4k8Q/IMG-0102.jpg)
Going to take a little time with the indicator to get the bar centered up, good project for this afternoon...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 24, 2021, 05:41:26 PM
After lunch got the recesses turned in, and also drilled/tapped a center hole. The hole will serve two purposes - a way to hold the upper piece in place for soldering and provide a reference point later on when milling out the center of the cross bar.
(https://i.postimg.cc/7Z2ybwZS/IMG-0105.jpg)
Here are the parts so far
(https://i.postimg.cc/Pqnnw9C9/IMG-0107.jpg)
Next step will be to cut the semicircles in the brass bars to fit over the ends of the cross bars
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on September 24, 2021, 07:07:22 PM
Great progress on the crossheads, Chris!  Those are complex little buggers for sure!   :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 24, 2021, 07:37:05 PM
Great progress on the crossheads, Chris!  Those are complex little buggers for sure!   :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
Thanks Kim.

If they dont work for the crossheads, I can make a really complicated door hinge!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 24, 2021, 08:58:51 PM
After some casting about (bar stock pun there) with the vises, different chucks, etc trying to figure out how to hold the brass bars to bore the off-center and out-the-side holes, I hit on using the faceplate. The hole needed is slightly smaller than the hole in the faceplate, and I found a plate that had two holes in the right place already, just needed one more drilled/tapped to hold it like this for boring:
(https://i.postimg.cc/3JtKkmDp/IMG-0108.jpg)
Worked perfect
(https://i.postimg.cc/hthKTv9Y/IMG-0109.jpg)
One down, 5 more to bore out. The starter hole was done with a center drill, then worked in the boring bar a layer at a time.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on September 25, 2021, 12:30:36 AM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RReid on September 25, 2021, 12:55:19 AM
That is a really cool looking part. Maybe you should make an extra just to put on the shelf. I'm sure you could make up all kinds of stories to tell people when they ask what it is. ;)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Don1966 on September 25, 2021, 01:14:15 AM
Yep your the man Dog……. :Love:



  :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 25, 2021, 01:16:27 AM
That is a really cool looking part. Maybe you should make an extra just to put on the shelf. I'm sure you could make up all kinds of stories to tell people when they ask what it is. ;)
Lets see...


It's the key to my Tardis


New drive shaft for a Ferrari


Chandelier for the shop elves


It fell off the rocket from the last Apollo launch


Its the wind up key for my robot


...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 25, 2021, 01:17:25 AM
Yep your the man Dog……. :Love:



  :cheers:
Don


Thanks Don,  what time will you be here for the silver soldering?
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: fumopuc on September 25, 2021, 10:30:11 AM
Hi Chris, a lot of progress every week. Nice to see it all coming together step by step.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 25, 2021, 02:07:18 PM
Hi Chris, a lot of progress every week. Nice to see it all coming together step by step.
Great to have you along for the journey Achim!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 25, 2021, 06:10:27 PM
The rest of the brass bars were bored out
(https://i.postimg.cc/hj3v6tkz/IMG-0110.jpg)
and silver soldering started this morning, beginning with the joint between the two steel pieces. Those are in soaking in vinegar now to clean them up to solder on the brass bars - I might drill the boring starter hole down the center of the center piece first to lighten up the steel a bit, will help get the steel and brass up to temperature more evenly. Then after soldering the taper can be bored through.
While things are in soaking, I started turning the blanks for the center 'pins'
(https://i.postimg.cc/d3k3YKFW/IMG-0111.jpg)
The recess in the center is for the small end bearing from the con-rod, the larger diameter sections outside that will get a taper to match the pieces being soldered, and the ends take the crosshead bearings and nuts.
(https://i.postimg.cc/QtMVfTyZ/IMG-0112.jpg)
One down, two to turn to this stage...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Craig DeShong on September 26, 2021, 12:34:25 AM
This project just keeps getting better and better. :pinkelephant:

My only worry is that I don’t know what you can do for your next project that can top this one in complexity, design, and skill.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 26, 2021, 01:04:02 AM
This project just keeps getting better and better. :pinkelephant:

My only worry is that I don’t know what you can do for your next project that can top this one in complexity, design, and skill.
There are some things in the works that will fill the bill. Some should be revealed Sunday afternoon, the biggie comes later, need to pester my design pusher...  :LittleDevil:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steamer on September 26, 2021, 03:25:16 AM
oh the force is strong in this one..... 8)     Be careful what you wish for!!!

I'll see if I have copies of those plans ....if I do I'll send them

The last set I sent was to Maryak, ....but alas....my timing was off about 10 years I think..... :(
Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steamer on September 26, 2021, 03:26:31 AM
This project just keeps getting better and better. :pinkelephant:

My only worry is that I don’t know what you can do for your next project that can top this one in complexity, design, and skill.

if this is a page....I have an encyclopedia set.......just sayin.....it's coming at you Chris!

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steamer on September 26, 2021, 03:27:22 AM
Design Pusher?......really?.....
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 26, 2021, 04:13:19 AM
Design Pusher?......really?.....


 :Lol: :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steamboatmodel on September 26, 2021, 04:56:03 AM
Wow things are really moving along. My laptop died on May 18th and I just got it going again on Friday, Once I got it going again I started back in on your build, now I know what my elves were talking about, ( funny my computer was down but they somehow have a line to your shop elves), now I have to look up that wrench you did.
Great work Chris.
Gerald.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 26, 2021, 01:27:22 PM
Wow things are really moving along. My laptop died on May 18th and I just got it going again on Friday, Once I got it going again I started back in on your build, now I know what my elves were talking about, ( funny my computer was down but they somehow have a line to your shop elves), now I have to look up that wrench you did.
Great work Chris.
Gerald.
Welcome back Gerald, long time to be offline. Yeah, getting on the interElfnet can be tricky, they hide it well. That wrench handle is a good little project.
This morning we are off to the pond with the rc boats.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Roger B on September 26, 2021, 04:59:12 PM
I'm still here following and enjoying  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp:  :wine1:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 26, 2021, 07:55:52 PM
Hi all,
As mentioned, was out to the pond today with the RC boats, season ender run and picnic with the local club. One new boat for me - last month one of our MEM forum members Thomas, who used to work on the building the real shrimpboats down in Texas sent me the  design and a set of laser-cut plywood panels for a model that he was not able to get to, and I got it assembled and running for this weekend. It still needs all the detail work, radar, lights, fittings, winches, masts, nets, all that stuff, but it was far enough along to get it out for a sea trial. Here is a quick video of it running, performed great (you can tell by the sound that it was a gusty day)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyAGRgEVXxI
A still shot
(https://i.postimg.cc/28MGYWbz/IMG-3112a.jpg)
passing a submarine
(https://i.postimg.cc/W1Zn14g0/IMG-3114a.jpg)
a RC duck decoy and a flying sub
(https://i.postimg.cc/mrGSzGyJ/IMG-3115a.jpg)
and a really nice tugboat
(https://i.postimg.cc/zfSFTPdB/IMG-3127a.jpg)
A number of others were there too, great day to get out! Also found out that we WILL be able to get back into the pool at the local Y for our monthly runs this next week and through the winter, really missed that last year.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 26, 2021, 08:14:10 PM
Also, I had mentioned some other projects in the works. I'm ready to show the first one - with a lot of incredible help, pictures, drawings, and advice from our 'Steamer' Dave here on the forum, who used to be the engineer on the steamer Sabino down at Mystic Seaport, I now have enough information to do justice to a scale model of the engine (two cylinder compound by JH Paine) in the Sabino.

That engine is what got me hooked on steam engines as a kid when we visited the Mystic Seaport Museum a number of times - just fascinated me. Back in the early 1980's I did a RC model of the ship using plans that Mystic made available after they did a major restoration. Here are a couple pictures of it when I took it to Mystic, and got a chance to run it with the real one:
(https://i.postimg.cc/rpCHFdjb/Sabino131a.jpg)
Here it is sitting in the engine room during one of the cruises on the river
(https://i.postimg.cc/Twd4yRHP/Sabino127a.jpg)
Here the captain and I were running it next to the real one. Then the next cruise out on the river, he called me up to the pilothouse and had me take the wheel for the cruise (with him right there the whole time of course). I remarked to him that it handled just like the model did...! Quite an experience!
(https://i.postimg.cc/bvjMh0xk/Sabino133a.jpg)
As I said, seeing that steam engine running was what got me hooked on steam, obviously I have not gotten over that yet! Anyway, recently Dave got me some great pictures of the machinery level down in the hull plus some pictures and sketches that another engineer, Greg, had done. Greg built a wonderful cutaway model of the engine, and his sketches were key to getting my design in Fusion going. Here is a screen shot of my CAD version from a week or so ago - more has been done on it since, adding final details and fixing goofs that Dave spotted.

(https://i.postimg.cc/mkYBqVft/Sabino-Paine-Engine-CAD-Model.jpg)
And a short video loop of it animated in Fusion, again this is from an earlier version, more done since then:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHRQoLjcbPY
Many thanks to Dave for all his help, would not have been possible without it!!   :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

So, a number of you were asking what I would work on after the Holly engine is done (which will be a while), this engine is one that I've been wanting to build for a long long time, so it is up next in the queue.

There is another one that will probably follow that, details to follow at a future date. Could be a big one.

Chris
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on September 26, 2021, 11:55:34 PM
Looks like a great day out at the lake with the RC club!  Thanks for sharing that with us.

And Wow!  That Sabino engine looks like yet another great project!  I'll be watching, when you get to it, of course.  Till then, I'll be excitingly following along on the continuing saga of the Holly Pumping Engine!  :popcorn: :popcorn:

You've got my forum viewing all lined up for me, don't you, Chris!
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steamboatmodel on September 27, 2021, 01:06:17 AM
Also, I had mentioned some other projects in the works. I'm ready to show the first one - with a lot of incredible help, pictures, drawings, and advice from our 'Steamer' Dave here on the forum, who used to be the engineer on the steamer Sabino down at Mystic Seaport, I now have enough information to do justice to a scale model of the engine (two cylinder compound by JH Paine) in the Sabino.

That engine is what got me hooked on steam engines as a kid when we visited the Mystic Seaport Museum a number of times - just fascinated me. Back in the early 1980's I did a RC model of the ship using plans that Mystic made available after they did a major restoration. Here are a couple pictures of it when I took it to Mystic, and got a chance to run it with the real one:
(https://i.postimg.cc/rpCHFdjb/Sabino131a.jpg)
Here it is sitting in the engine room during one of the cruises on the river
(https://i.postimg.cc/Twd4yRHP/Sabino127a.jpg)
Here the captain and I were running it next to the real one. Then the next cruise out on the river, he called me up to the pilothouse and had me take the wheel for the cruise (with him right there the whole time of course). I remarked to him that it handled just like the model did...! Quite an experience!
(https://i.postimg.cc/bvjMh0xk/Sabino133a.jpg)
As I said, seeing that steam engine running was what got me hooked on steam, obviously I have not gotten over that yet! Anyway, recently Dave got me some great pictures of the machinery level down in the hull plus some pictures and sketches that another engineer, Greg, had done. Greg built a wonderful cutaway model of the engine, and his sketches were key to getting my design in Fusion going. Here is a screen shot of my CAD version from a week or so ago - more has been done on it since, adding final details and fixing goofs that Dave spotted.

(https://i.postimg.cc/mkYBqVft/Sabino-Paine-Engine-CAD-Model.jpg)
And a short video loop of it animated in Fusion, again this is from an earlier version, more done since then:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHRQoLjcbPY
Many thanks to Dave for all his help, would not have been possible without it!!   :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

So, a number of you were asking what I would work on after the Holly engine is done (which will be a while), this engine is one that I've been wanting to build for a long long time, so it is up next in the queue.

There is another one that will probably follow that, details to follow at a future date. Could be a big one.

Chris
Hi Chris,
What scale are you going to build the engine too,
Pluss will you be doing a RC boat for it?
Gerald.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 27, 2021, 01:17:58 AM
Looks like a great day out at the lake with the RC club!  Thanks for sharing that with us.

And Wow!  That Sabino engine looks like yet another great project!  I'll be watching, when you get to it, of course.  Till then, I'll be excitingly following along on the continuing saga of the Holly Pumping Engine!  :popcorn: :popcorn:

You've got my forum viewing all lined up for me, don't you, Chris!
Kim
Its nice to have the next season's viewing planned out before the current season ends, huh?!   :Lol:   I'm going to be busy for a while!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 27, 2021, 01:22:18 AM
...
Hi Chris,
What scale are you going to build the engine too,
Pluss will you be doing a RC boat for it?
Gerald.
Hi Gerald,
I have not decided for sure, am leaning towards building at 1:8 scale, though that would require using the riser blocks on the lathe to turn the bores on the two engine block halves (very do-able). Otherwise I'd have to drop back to 1:12. The larger scale would keep the fasteners in a good size range too.
It would NOT be set up for an RC boat at that size - at 1:8 it would be over 7 feet long. Big enough to ride in, though the boiler would be a toasty place to sit on! I'll keep my original electric powered RC version.
Chris
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steamer on September 27, 2021, 02:01:56 AM

[/quote]

It would NOT be set up for an RC boat at that size - at 1:8 it would be over 7 feet long. Big enough to ride in, though the boiler would be a toasty place to sit on! I'll keep my original electric powered RC version.
Chris
[/quote]



You got that right!    boiler front in August was 140 ....at the controls.....120+......you drink a lot of water....and I was a much younger man...
I was a volunteer Engineer on her for 12 years.    I spend over 1000 hours in her engine room, and much more than that doing engine restorations....it was a good bunch of people...

Dave


Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steamer on September 27, 2021, 02:19:22 AM
And  Chris, I suspect those are old pictures...but those cross head guides are about 1/4 th the length that they really are.   It's a taper gib plate with a box bearing.    The main bearings have wick boxes..., And there has always been a guard on the front of the engine from about 6' below the HP lower cylinder head all the way down to the bed plate.   at the bed plate, there is a 6" high copper band, but otherwise the guard is painted red and is held in place with "J" bolts on the front column, and bolts on the port side.  It keeps you from getting the coal rake into the cross head, and getting an arm or hand in the cross head.   

It's coming along nice!.....

AS to the other .....suprise......I think a 10,000 HP 4 legged triple from a Great White Fleet battleship. is pretty ambitious!......but its easier if your buddy has the plans for it..... 8)     Did you know that this engine is so big, they put staybolts in the HP steam passages?.....


Dave
 
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 27, 2021, 02:41:23 AM
And  Chris, I suspect those are old pictures...but those cross head guides are about 1/4 th the length that they really are.   It's a taper gib plate with a box bearing.    The main bearings have wick boxes..., And there has always been a guard on the front of the engine from about 6' below the HP lower cylinder head all the way down to the bed plate.   at the bed plate, there is a 6" high copper band, but otherwise the guard is painted red and is held in place with "J" bolts on the front column, and bolts on the port side.  It keeps you from getting the coal rake into the cross head, and getting an arm or hand in the cross head.   

It's coming along nice!.....

AS to the other .....suprise......I think a 10,000 HP 4 legged triple from a Great White Fleet battleship. is pretty ambitious!......but its easier if your buddy has the plans for it..... 8)     Did you know that this engine is so big, they put staybolts in the HP steam passages?.....


Dave
Hi Dave,
Yup, those pictures are from before you told me about the corsshead length, the con rod diameter, and the bearing lube boxes/oil cups. All thats been fixed on the CAD version, just didn't grab new pics yet. I've left off the big guard panel for now - wanted to be able to see things behind it easier. I have wished it wasn't there on the real engine in a lot of the pictures, it blocks view of a lot! Its been a ball CAD'ing it up, made for a few long evenings when I got on a roll with it. At one point I had a problem with Fusion, a folder full of bolt bodies were still there in the drawing, but were not showing in the component all of a sudden. I wound up on the phone with a great tech support guy from AutoCad who helped me work out a way to get the bodies back in the list again, but that was after he spent 5 minutes admiring the model and getting its background!

For the other ....surprise.... I guess that feline critter has escaped from the cloth container! I've looked up pictures from some of the other battleships with the same setup, it definitely is a monster of an engine. A 75 HP twin compound to a 10,000HP triple - Eh! A Piece Of Cake!  (well, a flippin container ship full of cake...! ) I may need another addition on the house....!

As mentioned - thanks so much for all the info!  Out at the pond today, one of the other guys in the club told me that he has a bunch of bar stock in storage from when they cleaned out his fathers' metal shop (still around, just moved to a smaller house). He (the father) used to build some wonderful steam engines, had a beaut of a tug with a boiler and engine it it that he brought to some of the RC regattas. We are going to check out his stash of bar stock, mostly brass, and I'll make him an offer on it. Sounds like it will get used on these engines!
Hmmm, what IS the load capacity of a typical wood frame house room floor....  :zap:
Chris

 :cheers: :cheers: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steamer on September 27, 2021, 03:08:16 AM
Guilty as charged.    That engine needs to get built.   
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on September 27, 2021, 12:54:48 PM
"Hmmm, what IS the load capacity of a typical wood frame house room floor.... "

Chris, when the going gets tough, the tough install extra beams and columns!  :Lol:

PS I've just done a major sort / consolidation of my metals stock 12" long or less into some nice heavy duty plastic bins that sit on a heavy plywood roller dolly with casters, rated at 2200 lb capacity - there's maybe 400 lb on it. Two columns of 5 boxes each fit the dolly and can be moved around by light hand pressure. I also re-sorted by long stock rack that is built below my surface plate stand. Now the brass is with the brass, etc. The only major sort left to do is the rats nest of 13-24" stuff on the shelf behind the lathe.

That badly behaved shop gnome you catapulted over a while ago has not helped the 13-24" rats nest much.  :Lol: :help:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RonGinger on September 27, 2021, 03:05:29 PM
I have also been a long time fan of SABINO. I now live on the river where it was originally operated- it passed by my house several times a day from its launch until it sank in the bridge accident in 1918.

I noticed in the CAD animation that the reverse lever was oscillating up and down a bit. If that was constrained would it show the die slip on the link?

I just hope you get that engine done and written up soon, I have always want to build one, but was to lazy to do the CAD. I have photos and measurements from back in the day that Dave was operating it.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 27, 2021, 04:25:46 PM
I have also been a long time fan of SABINO. I now live on the river where it was originally operated- it passed by my house several times a day from its launch until it sank in the bridge accident in 1918.

I noticed in the CAD animation that the reverse lever was oscillating up and down a bit. If that was constrained would it show the die slip on the link?

I just hope you get that engine done and written up soon, I have always want to build one, but was to lazy to do the CAD. I have photos and measurements from back in the day that Dave was operating it.
Hi Ron,
I didn't realize that was where it ran early on!


The reverse lever movement is something I struggled with in Fusion - the bearing on the end of the valve rod should move slightly on the slide link as the engine rotates, has to since there is one pivot point for the control arms, but two sets of arms at different angles with the eccentrics out of phase. But, Fusion doesn't have a combination of joints, at least that I have worked out, that will let me model that correctly. So, I had to tie the arms to one of the valve rods and that makes the reverse lever wobble. It will NOT do that in the model!
......   I have photos and measurements from back in the day that Dave was operating it.
Really?! measurements of the engine itself? Detail photos?  Ooohhh! Send them! Send them! Please!!!  You have my email, I can send a link to my DropBox if its a large volumn too big for email. I have very few data points, just a handful of photos that show detail, just a few measurements, and some great sketches that Greg did. I have the CAD model close, but there are guestimates in a lot of places made by measuring the photos I have.

I'll be sharing out the plans when they are done, maybe we can work up a chuffing herd of Sabino engines!
Chris :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RReid on September 27, 2021, 04:32:46 PM
I'll be looking forward to the Sabino, Chris.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 27, 2021, 04:37:24 PM
I'll be looking forward to the Sabino, Chris.
Hi Ron,  Going to be a while, will be after the Holly model is done, which will be maybe spring?
Chris
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 27, 2021, 04:46:06 PM
More done on the crossheads, yesterday I got the last of the silver soldering done and cleaned up, and gave them a 'coat' of nickel plating to get the brass and steel sections looking the same.
(https://i.postimg.cc/3NgXPVZM/IMG-0113.jpg)
After drilling the ends of the legs for the pump rods, this morning the parts were centered up in the four-jaw chuck and bored out to size with the compound slide set to a slight angle, just under one degree. I realized the reason they made it this way was that its the only way to assemble the crosshead on the engine. They could hoist the center section up into position, slide the tapered center in through the side of the engine frame, then add the bearing blocks at the ends. The taper is not meant to be an easily removeable one like a Morse taper, but to lock the parts together solidly on assembly.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZY3xBvzf/IMG-0115.jpg)
After all three were bored out, switched to the 3-jaw and turned the center sections of the cross pins to match, without moving the compound slide unit, wanted that angle to match what was bored.
(https://i.postimg.cc/6pHrJdCQ/IMG-0116.jpg)
Took frequent stops to measure and check the fit, till the part would slide on to the desired spot. At such a shallow angle, taking off another thou moved the position a lot.

(https://i.postimg.cc/1zfp9fKr/IMG-0118.jpg)
So, here are the parts so far, all fit together:
(https://i.postimg.cc/P5fWR6pc/IMG-0119.jpg)
Next steps will be to cut out the center section of the main piece, so that the top of the con rod can get to the cross pin. Then will need to cut the tapered slots for the wedges at one end. Then can start on the bearing blocks for the ends of the pins.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Don1966 on September 27, 2021, 07:00:35 PM
Looks good Dog,  but I bet you didn’t sweat solder them……. :Love:



 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 27, 2021, 08:08:23 PM
Looks good Dog,  but I bet you didn’t sweat solder them……. :Love:



 :cheers:
Don
Correct! Flowed in from the side. The way they slide together, having the solder on first would have made it tough to assemble.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Don1966 on September 27, 2021, 09:14:47 PM
Well there was a flat surface there on the top so the solder should of flowed good…..as fir the brass solder would wick very nicely. What I like about sweat soldering is less solder excursion!



Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 27, 2021, 10:30:10 PM
Well there was a flat surface there on the top so the solder should of flowed good…..as fir the brass solder would wick very nicely. What I like about sweat soldering is less solder excursion!



Don
Does silver solder flow better on a brass surface? Or is it because of the curve?
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Don1966 on September 27, 2021, 11:21:22 PM
Well there was a flat surface there on the top so the solder should of flowed good…..as fir the brass solder would wick very nicely. What I like about sweat soldering is less solder excursion!



Don
Does silver solder flow better on a brass surface? Or is it because of the curve?
Chris I find it flows very good on brass then other metals. Same with copper.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 28, 2021, 08:46:51 PM
More done on the crossheads, cut out the gap in the center for the top end of the con rods
(https://i.postimg.cc/Gh0CDxcT/IMG-0120.jpg)
Test fit on the con rod ends
(https://i.postimg.cc/9fN3QG8M/IMG-0121.jpg)
Also got the slots for the wedges drilled through, two small holes connected with a dental bur in my air handpiece
(https://i.postimg.cc/9FGjYwM8/IMG-0123.jpg)
That leaves the bearing blocks for the out ends of the cross bar. On the real one they have adjustable wedges either side, have to see how the dimensions are to see if there is room to actually make them adjustable or not - its a lot to pack into a tiny space and still get working screws at this scale, the screws on the real one are pretty small. Good task for tomorrow...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on September 28, 2021, 11:42:08 PM
Very nice, Chris!  :popcorn: :popcorn:
Those are very complex crossheads.  And here I am thinking the crossheads I'm doing for the Pennsy are hard.  And you had THREE of them to do, not just two.

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on September 29, 2021, 02:30:50 AM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 29, 2021, 02:35:21 AM
Very nice, Chris!  :popcorn: :popcorn:
Those are very complex crossheads.  And here I am thinking the crossheads I'm doing for the Pennsy are hard.  And you had THREE of them to do, not just two.

Kim
Both shapes are complex - just different!  When I am done, it will pump water to your locomotive's water tower, ready for you to drop into the boiler!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 29, 2021, 02:36:36 AM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
:cheers:

End of next week the guy that got me the plans for the Holly engines is stopping by to see the progress and all the other models, be fun to see his reaction to a mini version of the pumps.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on September 29, 2021, 06:00:22 AM
Very nice, Chris!  :popcorn: :popcorn:
Those are very complex crossheads.  And here I am thinking the crossheads I'm doing for the Pennsy are hard.  And you had THREE of them to do, not just two.

Kim
Both shapes are complex - just different!  When I am done, it will pump water to your locomotive's water tower, ready for you to drop into the boiler!

Glad someone is thinking of the upstream water supply issues I'll have later! Thanks Chris!
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 29, 2021, 08:28:30 PM
Quite a bit done on the crossheads today. Started out by taking some bearing bronze rod, turning it slightly to an even size for the collet (it comes as a rough oversize rod) and milling the end square in a length long enough to get out two bearing blocks at a time (need 6 overall).
(https://i.postimg.cc/vZn4bWWt/IMG-0124.jpg)
Cut off each block a little overlong, and faced the ends on the lathe to dimension and added the steps. The originals had adjusting wedges down each side, but at this scale the screws would be 00-90 or smaller, and there would be no way to get a wrench and my fingers in to adjust them. So, leaving off that tiny detail.
(https://i.postimg.cc/wBc3sg4t/IMG-0128.jpg)
Here is one set ready to assemble onto the model. All three sets are to this stage. The sides of the blocks are a touch oversize, will file them off to be a nice sliding fit in the guides on the frames.

(https://i.postimg.cc/pdtpTpCb/IMG-0129.jpg)
Here is the first one with the blocks filed to fit the guides, and all the bits all bolted up to the pump rods.
(https://i.postimg.cc/63WqrgFM/IMG-0130.jpg)
That is where things slowed down. The ends of the pump rods step down to 1/8" diameter to go through the holes in the crosshead legs, and the ends of them are threaded. But, it turns out there was still just enough of a bur at the ends of the threads that kept them from sliding into the holes in the crossheads. So, unscrewed each one from the pump plunger, fettled them smooth at the base of the threads, and ran them back in. That is tedious, not a lot of finger room.
Then, got them all in and the top nuts on, and gave the flywheel a slow spin by hand. All went well till the very bottom of the stroke - the pump rods need to be about 1/16" shorter, since the plunger bottoms out just befor bottom dead center on the crank. I was worried about that, and had tried to leave some adjustment room on the rods, but apparently not enough. I tracked it back to the bottom of the corsshead legs, those brass pieces. I left them a bit tall to give more material around the bottom of the cutout where they were soldered to the round center section, forgetting that it would push the pump rods down that same amount. Elf-puckey!
Couple ways I could adjust that - I think what I will do is to take the rods back out, and turn back the top shoulder that same amount since I would like to leave the extra material on the legs, and its less work than to get that first crosshead back out again! The rods for the other two cylinders have not come out the first time yet, so I can do the thread deburring and turning the shoulders back in one go rather than two.
Good news is that aside from that last bit of the rotation, everything moves smoothly, and the plunger movement does not add any noticeable drag - it will when actually pumping, but at least the mechanism works!

Stopping there for the day, will tackle that next time.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RReid on September 29, 2021, 09:16:11 PM
Glad you see a fairly easy solution to that little glitch. You'll soon having it all spinning as sweet as it looks.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Don1966 on September 29, 2021, 09:24:26 PM
Yep! Your definitely the man for the job. Outstanding work Dog……..I……………likeeeeeeee…… :Love:



 :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on September 29, 2021, 11:42:57 PM
Yeah, these are the kinds of things that happen when you insist on creating new ginormous models that haven't been tried out before!  You get to be your own guinea pig! :Jester:

I'm certain you'll get it squared away, Chris.  Taking a break and tackling it tomorrow sounds like the right move for now.  It's all part of the charm of the hobby, right?  :naughty:

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 29, 2021, 11:50:11 PM
Yeah, these are the kinds of things that happen when you insist on creating new ginormous models that haven't been tried out before!  You get to be your own guinea pig! :Jester:

I'm certain you'll get it squared away, Chris.  Taking a break and tackling it tomorrow sounds like the right move for now.  It's all part of the charm of the hobby, right?  :naughty:

Kim
And by not following my own plans the guinea pig got stepped on!   :o

Easy fix at least! 


Thats one thing I've (mostly) learned over the years, when to stop, walk away, go do something else before mucking it up from getting tired.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on September 30, 2021, 12:25:31 AM
Is your shop's guinea pig named Murphy by any chance?  :Lol:

The mechanism is looking great!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 30, 2021, 01:12:45 AM
Is your shop's guinea pig named Murphy by any chance?  :Lol:

The mechanism is looking great!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
His name has to be Murphy, its the law!   :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on September 30, 2021, 05:44:38 AM
And by not following my own plans the guinea pig got stepped on!   :o

The best-laid plans of mice and guinea pigs!

Poor Murphy....   :'(

Kim

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Flyboy Jim on September 30, 2021, 01:55:47 PM

Thats one thing I've (mostly) learned over the years, "when to stop, walk away, go do something else before mucking it up from getting tired".

Wasn't that a Kenny Rogers song?  :ROFL:

Anyway, glad you found a solution.

Jim

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 30, 2021, 04:18:34 PM
This morning got the other pump rods removed, trimmed, and reinstalled like the first set. Here is a quick video of turning the crankshaft around with the first crosshead installed, it clears nicely now. The clanking you hear is the temporary rods in place on the other two con rod top ends to keep them from falling over, the rods are smaller than the openings so the clank back and forth. Anyway, everything is moving well, next will get the other two crossheads fitted, they still need the bearings filed to fit the guide openings.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1N9XR1oDDEo

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 30, 2021, 09:55:36 PM
Rest of the crossheads are all fitted and working - just one spot on the IP crank that needs a slight filing to remove a bur that is making it knock still, but that is enough for one day. Here is another video snippet of it going roundy round and uppy downy. Sorry for the shaking camera, hard to keep it pointed steady while spinning the flywheel!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfc2CPAbJWE

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on October 01, 2021, 12:34:27 AM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:  motion looks great! Couldn't get the shop elves to ride the piston rods?  Oh wait - you'd never get them off of them and back to work!  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on October 01, 2021, 01:23:51 AM
Beautiful! It feels good when it works like it should, doesn't it!

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 01, 2021, 02:42:21 AM
Its definitely a good feeling to get something moving on the engine after all this work. Had to lock the elves in the other room to keep them from putting carousel horses on the piston rods though!
Next fun step will be to get the gear shafts made to turn the lay shaft from the big bevel gear next to the center crank.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 01, 2021, 04:32:51 PM
A fun (hopefully) bit next, the drive shaft that connects the crankshaft to the lay shaft (where all the eccentrics and the governor are). Back when I made the crankshaft I made up two matching sets of bevel gears, two large and two small, both sets with the same number of teeth on each. This will keep the lay shaft in sync with the crankshaft.
Here is the large bevel on the lay shaft, and you can see the matching large one on the crankshaft back there in the shadows next to the flywheel:

(https://i.postimg.cc/C1qWVm2C/IMG-0148.jpg)
Closer view of the one on the flywheel, it is bolted to the flywheel hub so it can't spin seperately.
(https://i.postimg.cc/NjGqr8yY/IMG-0142.jpg)
I have the matching small gears, made with the larger ones, so now can skip to the drive shaft. It will need bearings top and bottom, and I want those adjustable for position along the axis of the shaft to adjust the mesh of the gears. The housing that holds the bearing will be adjustable for side-to-side depth of mesh too. Started with a short length of bearing bronze, threaded the end M7 and drilled the hole for the shaft:
(https://i.postimg.cc/qMxHRDvj/IMG-0139.jpg)
over to the mill with a hex-outside collet block to mill flats so I can adjust it with a wrench

(https://i.postimg.cc/YSj5dpfs/IMG-0144.jpg)
Parted off, and made a second one for the other end of the shaft. Here it is held up next to the cap that goes over the crankshaft gear. This cap will next be drilled/tapped M7 to take the bearing. The first gear has been loctited to the end of the shaft.

(https://i.postimg.cc/KYVdVd0v/IMG-0147.jpg)
This shows how the drive shaft will sit on the bevel gear, angling up to meet the lay shaft. Going to take some careful measuring on that angle, probably will make a test piece before committing the real cap.
(https://i.postimg.cc/4x8CvKtc/IMG-0146.jpg)
Chris
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 01, 2021, 06:38:21 PM
Well, that went easier than I thought! Some careful measuring, marking, double checking, worrying, and finally drilling later, the crankshaft cap for the lay shaft drive shaft is done.

(https://i.postimg.cc/rp0rMrNC/IMG-0149.jpg)
and it lines up with the lay shaft at the top end - I slid the lay shaft back to let the still-too-long drive shaft go past it
(https://i.postimg.cc/k50t4gjr/IMG-0150.jpg)
A quick video to prove that yes, it does spin the drive shaft when the crank is turned:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ha5ekXi0xLc
The top end of the drive shaft needs a bearing support arm - it will bolt to the round plate on the engine frame marked by the arrow. I'll make that bracket, then set the gears on the two shafts.

(https://i.postimg.cc/8Ppfs3bC/IMG-0150-Marked.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on October 02, 2021, 12:00:32 AM
That's super cool, Chris!  It just spins like nobody's business!

Too bad that the pretty brass gear on the crankshaft is covered up and nobody can see it :(

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 02, 2021, 12:12:34 AM
That's super cool, Chris!  It just spins like nobody's business!

Too bad that the pretty brass gear on the crankshaft is covered up and nobody can see it :(

Kim
No problem, theres the one on the lay shaft too. That one gets a cover too though...  :(   I think that cover is open underneath, so a bit of view. There will be the governor next to it so at least that will show!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on October 02, 2021, 12:18:37 AM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

I was sure I had a piece of transparent aluminum here somewhere, I'd send it to you for a see thru gear cover, but of course I can't see it..... :Lol: (it was a Star Trek thing, the windows in the starships were made of it reportedly)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 02, 2021, 01:18:55 AM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

I was sure I had a piece of transparent aluminum here somewhere, I'd send it to you for a see thru gear cover, but of course I can't see it..... :Lol: (it was a Star Trek thing, the windows in the starships were made of it reportedly)
I remember that one, whales on a space ship. Later on Dr Who had dinosaurs on a space ship. This year its billionaires.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Roger B on October 02, 2021, 07:53:40 AM
It's always good to see things going round  :)  :)  :) Excellent  :praise2:  :wine1:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: BAH on October 02, 2021, 03:00:11 PM
I don’t usually say much, just watch with awe, but must say, this is amazing work. I need to retire from fixing helicopters soon, so I can get more done in my shop.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 02, 2021, 03:03:57 PM
I don’t usually say much, just watch with awe, but must say, this is amazing work. I need to retire from fixing helicopters soon, so I can get more done in my shop.
Thanks! Maybe retire and build a steam helicopter?   ^-^   I get a whole lot more done on the models since retirement, more fun, no stress.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 02, 2021, 03:09:01 PM
This morning got started on the upper bearing support for the drive shaft. Dithered a bit before deciding to carve it from solid rather than piecing it up. So, took a piece of 5/8" stainless bar, and drilled/tapped the hole to take the bushing made the other day.
(https://i.postimg.cc/FFMPBz62/IMG-0158.jpg)
Then started the whittling process - thinned off the bottom surface and angled in the side
(https://i.postimg.cc/FHmThqNp/IMG-0159.jpg)
then some plunge cuts, moving in a bit each time, to form the narrow section between the bearing and the mounting plate
(https://i.postimg.cc/htrpvrGB/IMG-0160.jpg)
Here it is so far with the bearing run in - still need to drill the mounting holes and part off the mounting plate last. The mounting holes will be drilled slightly oversize to give room to do fine adjustments for position - transfering the locations from the hole pattern plate accurately enough to give good alignment on the drive shaft will be tricky.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZK6ftZt0/IMG-0162.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Craig DeShong on October 02, 2021, 09:33:42 PM
Chris

I remember seeing Rich Carlstedt's fantastic model of the ironclad monitor engine at Cabin Fever some years ago.  It was so exquisite, and while everyone else was admiring the engine model, I was "stuck" looking at that gorgeous hand wheel out in front.  I kept asking myself, "How could he make that thing, so authentic and exacting in detail?".  It was minutes till I moved on to the actual engine itself.

 I'm thinking this model is going to be like that.  It's a model that, if you see it over and over again; every time you see it you'll see something new that you haven't seen before.

I hope I get a chance to see it sometime out there in the future one you have completed it.  An experience I won't want to miss.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 02, 2021, 10:22:04 PM
Thanks much Craig.  I saw that Monitor model a few years ago at Cabin Fever, it's indeed exquisite, the fine details are so well proportioned.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 02, 2021, 11:23:08 PM
Some more whittling on the upper bearing support. Amazing what you can do with a pen knife while sitting out on the porch....  ;D    And with a mill, collet set, files....!

It fits the gap well, happy with that!
(https://i.postimg.cc/Ghd9cJTr/IMG-0163.jpg)
It still needs the front overhang on the mounting plate trimmed off and the bolt holes drilled. You can see the overhang from the frame here:
(https://i.postimg.cc/3J1NW42G/IMG-0164.jpg)
Fortunately for a template I have the plate I made when I made the frame - this plate has the correct shape and the holes match the frame, so I can use it as a milling and drill quide:
(https://i.postimg.cc/zGfBhzkc/IMG-0165.jpg)
As for getting in there with a wrench to tighten up the screws.... going to need one of the shop elves to climb in there with his tool belt. May need to warm up some cookies as a bribe!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dan Rowe on October 02, 2021, 11:31:09 PM
going to need one of the shop elves to climb in there with his tool belt.

That elf is going to need a tiny spud wrench on his tool belt. It has been on my list of tiny tools to make for a long time.

Cheers Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 02, 2021, 11:32:46 PM
going to need one of the shop elves to climb in there with his tool belt.

That elf is going to need a tiny spud wrench on his tool belt. It has been on my list of tiny tools to make for a long time.

Cheers Dan
I tried getting the elves to use a spud wrench once. They kept looking around for the loose potato chips to tighten....  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 03, 2021, 04:20:09 PM
This morning I got the mount plate trimmed to match the edge of the engine frame, and drilled the holes for the mounting screws. Quite a bit of fiddling and I got the first screw in, and it meshes the gears nicely!   :cartwheel:   Big relief!
(https://i.postimg.cc/c1DgkXcv/IMG-0166.jpg)
The key to getting the first one in was this nice tiny open end wrench that I've had for a long time (no longer made, unfortunately) and fits into small spaces well. I used the tip of small tweezers on the end of the screw to hold it from falling out of the hole while getting it started. Only dropped the screw 5 times.

(https://i.postimg.cc/gkQwmjQd/IMG-0167.jpg)
Now for the really fun part. Getting the screws in on the back side of the piece. Only way to access them is from the back side, through the gap between the engine frames. I gave the shop elves a little ladder and the wrench, but they were out drinking last night and are still wobbly, and keep falling off the ladder. After listening to thier griping and moaning long enough, I made an extension handle for the wrench so I can do the work myself!
(https://i.postimg.cc/Nf5y3mNp/IMG-0169.jpg)
The tape across the mouth was key to a quiet workshop environment....
 :lolb: :ROFL:

We have our first indoor submarine run of the season at the local Y pool this afternoon, so after that maybe I'll tackle the other screws on the mounting plate. Next steps after that will be to get the gears attached at the top with some small set screws, then either make the gear cover or start on the eccentrics - have not decided yet.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dan Rowe on October 03, 2021, 06:32:47 PM
Chris, nice wrench and yes a 1/8" combination wrench is hard to find but Gedor makes a 3.2mm combination wrench which works.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Gedore-Combination-spanner-3-2-mm-6080760-/153533147136?hash=item23bf49e800

This type of job is where the Moody wrench blades come in very handy they can be ground to fit and a longer handle can be welded on. They are cheap so you do not wreck a good wrench for a custom job.

Cheers Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 03, 2021, 08:20:28 PM
Chris, nice wrench and yes a 1/8" combination wrench is hard to find but Gedor makes a 3.2mm combination wrench which works.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Gedore-Combination-spanner-3-2-mm-6080760-/153533147136?hash=item23bf49e800 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Gedore-Combination-spanner-3-2-mm-6080760-/153533147136?hash=item23bf49e800)

This type of job is where the Moody wrench blades come in very handy they can be ground to fit and a longer handle can be welded on. They are cheap so you do not wreck a good wrench for a custom job.

Cheers Dan
That 3.2mm is a good find!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 03, 2021, 08:29:40 PM
As mentioned earlier, today was the first run at the local indoor pool for our RC submarine group for the fall/winter season (yes, getting cooler here and leaves are turning). I took out a new sub for a trial run - it will be getting a full static diver watertight compartment system that one of the other guys is making, for now it is re-using the normal dynamic diver system with no ballast pump from another of my subs. This is based on the shark sub from the old TinTin cartoon. We are basing it off a Skipjack nacy sub kit hull, different fins and a cockpit in place of the original sail fin.

(https://i.postimg.cc/3JBJLBQk/IMG-3136a.jpg)
Runs very well, the large tail fins make it maneauver very well. It can do a nice broach from depth
(https://i.postimg.cc/J4mzcFvw/IMG-3130a.jpg)
and with the dive planes in the up position on the surface, it cruises with the face out of the water looking for hapless swimmers...
(https://i.postimg.cc/pLLV3FPq/IMG-3143a.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 03, 2021, 08:31:29 PM
Oh, and the black band around the hull is some velcro, one of the deck hold-downs had some stage fright and didn't work right!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RReid on October 03, 2021, 08:41:05 PM
Cue the theme song from Jaws! :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 03, 2021, 09:30:29 PM
When I got all the boat stuff put away, I checked back in the shop, and apparently the shop-elf-on-a-stick threat worked, they were just finishing up the last of the screws on the back of the mounting plate.
(https://i.postimg.cc/tRD4kkjY/IMG-0170.jpg)

And a quick video to show the mesh on the gears is good. Now I can move on to putting in the set screws on the gears! Big relief that this works, no valve movement without it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7-QhrEg_EA
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Don1966 on October 03, 2021, 10:54:06 PM
Awww!!! just another walk in the park. It’s getting very interesting to see it getting close to the finally…..love it….. :Love:



 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 03, 2021, 11:17:13 PM
Awww!!! just another walk in the park. It’s getting very interesting to see it getting close to the finally…..love it….. :Love:



 :cheers:
Don
Getting closer to running, only 3 to 6 more months!!  Lots more to go, eccentrics, pistons, valves (both Corliss and poppet valves), cylinders, recievers, pipes, several levels of catwalks, governor, ladders, etc.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on October 03, 2021, 11:56:41 PM
Boy, that's a real mesh! (in the good way)  :Lol:

Bucket Bob's gonna need a roller skate wheel on his hard hat if he's making on the fly adjustments with the big wrench, ridin the flywheel.  :Lol:

Just kidding, Looks great Chris.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on October 04, 2021, 12:16:23 AM
It's fun now that you have lots of moving pieces!  Things go up and down and now the lay shaft goes round and round!

Well done, Chris!
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 04, 2021, 12:18:27 AM
It's fun now that you have lots of moving pieces!  Things go up and down and now the lay shaft goes round and round!

Well done, Chris!
Kim
And next the eccentrics will go wobble wobble. There's a kids song coming along here....!
Boy, that's a real mesh! (in the good way)  :Lol:

Bucket Bob's gonna need a roller skate wheel on his hard hat if he's making on the fly adjustments with the big wrench, ridin the flywheel.  :Lol:

Just kidding, Looks great Chris.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Nah, he's safe. He's off in the kitchen eating cookies. I tried talking to him and he threw a chocolate chip at me.
I ate it, and went back to talk more!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 04, 2021, 05:02:41 PM
Moving on to the wobbly bits - the eccentrics. There are six of them, two per cylinder, one intake and one exhaust (no reverse gear on these pumping engines, unless they wanted to suck the city dry to refill the lake! )
Started out by turning a length of bronze bar to size and parting off the discs, had enough to part off a coupl espares in case anything went wrong in the shaping steps. Set up the rotary table and three-jaw on the mill, centered then offset for the eccentric throw. Then went through each piece and drilled the shaft holes. All the parts were marked for where the chuck jaws were so I could swap them in and out for each step and have them back to the same position.
(https://i.postimg.cc/L5Q7Np1T/IMG-0172.jpg)
Switched to a 1/8" drill and put a pair of holes on either side to start the openings through the eccentrics.

(https://i.postimg.cc/kXDLDB0h/IMG-0174.jpg)
Followed with using a 1/8" end mill to connect the dots with an arc down each side
(https://i.postimg.cc/h42HS95d/IMG-0175.jpg)
then moved the table so the centerline through the shaft hole was front-to-back on the mill, and did one more pass to put the inside edge of the openings in, these edges are straight rather than curved.
(https://i.postimg.cc/3NxVXRdN/IMG-0176.jpg)
Here is one of the eccentrics set in place on the lay shaft. Still need to drill/tap a hole down the center between the side openings for a set screw. There is not enough room to put a side hub with screws on the eccentrics, plus this is how the originals were set up. It will make moving the eccentrics during timing more tedious, but thats not bad.

(https://i.postimg.cc/QxPw7jsN/IMG-0177.jpg)
A few more openings to finish up the the other parts, then can start the drilling/tapping steps...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on October 04, 2021, 06:53:31 PM
There is not enough room to put a side hub with screws on the eccentrics, plus this is how the originals were set up. It will make moving the eccentrics during timing more tedious, but thats not bad.
How will you even get to the eccentric set screw to adjust?  Will the eccentric rods fully wrap around the eccentric as usual? Or is it more of a roller/follower arrangement?

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 04, 2021, 08:03:27 PM
There is not enough room to put a side hub with screws on the eccentrics, plus this is how the originals were set up. It will make moving the eccentrics during timing more tedious, but thats not bad.
How will you even get to the eccentric set screw to adjust?  Will the eccentric rods fully wrap around the eccentric as usual? Or is it more of a roller/follower arrangement?

Kim
Hi Kim,
Good question! I had pondered that one before I started the eccentrics - normally I would have a little hub off the side and put a screw there, but there is no room some of them, they are up against each other and the lay shaft brackets.
The follower goes around the eccentric as usual, so at first I was thinking that I would have to remove the follower cap to get at the set screw. Possible, but a nuisance. Then I realized that I could put a small hole in the top of the follower, and put a hex key through there. The hole will be hidden by the follower arm. Unlike a typical follower, the arm is pivoted in one axis on a bolt - I think they did this to allow the arm to pivot that little bit as the crank arm at the other end rotates. Here is a picture of the follower pieces:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Lsm2hjzF/Follower.jpg)
With a hole there, all I need to do is remove the pivot bolt, swing the arm out of the way or rotate the follower a bit, and I can run in a hex key. I have some 1-72 SHCS that will fit the center of the eccentric, some 2-56 ones might fit also - need to measure that.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dan Rowe on October 04, 2021, 09:44:53 PM
Chris the location you picked for the hole makes more work. Why not but the hole in the bottom half of the eccentric strap. Then nothing will have to be removed and the hole is not at a viewing angle. The hole could have a plug to fill it.

Cheers Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on October 04, 2021, 09:53:28 PM
Interesting.  It will certainly be a pain to adjust the eccentrics anyway you do it.  One plus for doing the way you describe Chris, is that after removing the pivot bolt, you'll be able to rotate the follower to find the setscrew, at least around half the disk.  If it's on the back half, you'll still have to turn the shaft.  The problem with turning the shaft is that it's harder to know how much you've rotated the eccentric - at least I would find it harder.  If the hole is in the bottom, you will ALWAYS have to rotate the shaft.  Maybe that's no big deal, but being able to rotate the follower rather than the eccentric and shaft seems like a plus to me. Though it comes at some cost (removing the pivot bolt).

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 04, 2021, 09:53:42 PM
Chris the location you picked for the hole makes more work. Why not but the hole in the bottom half of the eccentric strap. Then nothing will have to be removed and the hole is not at a viewing angle. The hole could have a plug to fill it.

Cheers Dan
Hi Dan,


The bottom of the follower has a narrow rib down the center, a hole there would be wider than the rib, tough to plug. Plus, how would I make the plug removable? Under the pivot would be mostly hidden, and look like an oil hole.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 04, 2021, 09:57:52 PM
Interesting.  It will certainly be a pain to adjust the eccentrics anyway you do it.  One plus for doing the way you describe Chris, is that after removing the pivot bolt, you'll be able to rotate the follower to find the setscrew, at least around half the disk.  If it's on the back half, you'll still have to turn the shaft.  The problem with turning the shaft is that it's harder to know how much you've rotated the eccentric - at least I would find it harder.  If the hole is in the bottom, you will ALWAYS have to rotate the shaft.  Maybe that's no big deal, but being able to rotate the follower rather than the eccentric and shaft seems like a plus to me. Though it comes at some cost (removing the pivot bolt).

Kim
I agree. Usually when I am fiddling with timing the eccentrics I'll make a pen mark on it and the shaft so I can have a visual cue to how much I have moved it. Even if there was a side hub with a set screw I would have to rotate to get the screw showing. I think putting it under the pivot is a good compromise.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Admiral_dk on October 04, 2021, 10:13:37 PM
Amazing progress as usual from you  :praise2:

Quote
Moving on to the wobbly bits - the eccentrics. There are six of them, two per cylinder, one intake and one exhaust (no reverse gear on these pumping engines, unless they wanted to suck the city dry to refill the lake! )

Unless you reverse the valves in the pumps I do not see that happening  ;D
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 04, 2021, 11:58:33 PM
Amazing progress as usual from you  :praise2:

Quote
Moving on to the wobbly bits - the eccentrics. There are six of them, two per cylinder, one intake and one exhaust (no reverse gear on these pumping engines, unless they wanted to suck the city dry to refill the lake! )

Unless you reverse the valves in the pumps I do not see that happening  ;D
Yeah, reversing over a thousand valves would be a lot of work!!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on October 05, 2021, 12:34:20 AM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dan Rowe on October 05, 2021, 02:28:36 PM
Chris, how were the full size eccentrics attached, and could that method be scaled down? I was thinking of a tapered plug like 1/8 Model Pipe Thread.

Cheers Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 05, 2021, 03:17:43 PM
Chris, how were the full size eccentrics attached, and could that method be scaled down? I was thinking of a tapered plug like 1/8 Model Pipe Thread.

Cheers Dan
Hi Dan,
On the real ones, the eccentrics are actually two pieces, with the join through the shaft hole.  They put two bolts from top to bottom in through those openings in the side that I milled out. Not a chance that I can do that on the model at 1:16 the size. They also had two set screws through the hub from those side holes into the shaft hole.

Also, I don't think I've shown how small these eccentrics are:
(https://i.postimg.cc/28kkxVTx/IMG-3146.jpg)
Barely thick enough for a 2-56 screw. All of them have been drilled/tapped this morning, ready for final shaping.
 :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dan Rowe on October 05, 2021, 03:39:06 PM
Wow those are small....or your fingers are really big.  :cheers:

Cheers Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 05, 2021, 04:22:20 PM
Wow those are small....or your fingers are really big.  :cheers:

Cheers Dan
They go with that giant penny that George has for his pictures!   :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 05, 2021, 04:29:08 PM
Some more whittling on the eccentrics with the dental burs, to shape in the flanges around the openings in the side
(https://i.postimg.cc/NfbdyfdV/IMG-0179.jpg)

and its time to assemble them onto the lay shaft for a test run!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxgM8vgUMOc
They are just roughly timed - will have to come off again to add the gear/support for the governor which goes near the drive shaft. But, great to have more bits moving on the engine!! :whoohoo:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Jo on October 05, 2021, 04:33:27 PM
Nice  8)

Jo
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Roger B on October 05, 2021, 05:07:18 PM
It's the Scream  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp:  :wine1:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on October 05, 2021, 05:09:08 PM
Well, you are now 1/3 more eccentric than I am, which is saying something  :o :thinking: (I've only used a max of four eccentrics on any steam engine I've built so far)  :Lol:

 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Looking great!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 05, 2021, 05:16:47 PM
Thanks all! 


CNR - this ties my max of 6 on the Shay. Though the Marion model has more total, but thats only since it has four engines, with 10 eccentrics total.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 06, 2021, 09:34:23 PM
After some time doodling around with gear calculations, the size/teeth combination for the governor drive shaft bevel gears have been decided on. The original used a much smaller tooth size for the governor than it did for the lay shaft bevel gears, and I had to make some changes to keep the same proportions and overall diameter as the original with the version for the model, given my smallest gear cutter set is a Mod 0.6 size. Once the number of teeth were decided on for each gear, that info was plugged into the spreadsheet and printed out, ready to cut this pair of gears starting with the large one. The blank was made on the lathe:

(https://i.postimg.cc/T1jHY3vC/IMG-0185.jpg)
Followed by milling out the teeth with the rotary table set at the matching angle on the mill. The same position will be used on both gears, one cut in the X axis, the other in the Y axis.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sf5LJwG7/IMG-0186.jpg)
Used the usual straight-line method taught in the Ivan Law (and others) gear book, with 3 passes to cut the shape of the teeth.Here are the two gears, ready to make the governor shaft and all its other little bits:
(https://i.postimg.cc/DyFMpL1D/IMG-0189.jpg)
The governor will be semi-functional - the balls will spin round and be able to move out, but they won't actually be connected to the steam line - I doubt a governor made this small would really be functional to control the pressure. The large gear will go on the lay shaft near the lay shaft drive shaft, and will bolt to the side of one of the lay shaft support brackets with the governor sticking out vertically. Time to channel George Britnell for tiny part inspiration! :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on October 06, 2021, 10:10:22 PM
Beautiful gears, Chris!

Looking forward to watching the governor go round and round!  :popcorn:

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 06, 2021, 10:12:10 PM
Beautiful gears, Chris!

Looking forward to watching the governor go round and round!  :popcorn:

Kim
Me too! I've been wanting to build a larger model of a governor someday as its own standalone model. Maybe I'll do a larger version of this one at some point, with a hand crank. It would be a nice companion piece to the full engine.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Don1966 on October 06, 2021, 10:28:28 PM
Chris you make that gear cutting look so easy with your speed and skill…….  :Love:
I just live it…….



 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 06, 2021, 10:38:57 PM
Thanks Don,  a couple pictures does make it look quicker than the several hours spent on it overall. Gears are one of those things that practice really helps speed up though. One of these years I'll try and tackle helical gears too, but not yet!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on October 06, 2021, 11:07:25 PM
Re Ivan Law (and others) : Weren't the others called D.Vide and G.Ash?  :Lol:

 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 07, 2021, 12:04:27 AM
Re Ivan Law (and others) : Weren't the others called D.Vide and G.Ash?  :Lol:

 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
:facepalm:


The Pun Police have referred your case to the firm of Dewey Cheatem & Howe...


 :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dan Rowe on October 07, 2021, 12:41:32 AM
Chris, nice gears... you still have a bunch of tight places to get to on this model I spotted a 4mm ratchiting wrench that might come in handy. A good price and made in the USA... :cartwheel: :cartwheel: I just ordered one.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/163791355112?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649

Cheers Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 07, 2021, 12:59:18 AM
Chris, nice gears... you still have a bunch of tight places to get to on this model I spotted a 4mm ratchiting wrench that might come in handy. A good price and made in the USA... :cartwheel: :cartwheel: I just ordered one.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/163791355112?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/163791355112?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649)

Cheers Dan
Hi Dan,
That looks like a good one!  a few years ago I had found another one meant for the Ford headlights, but it had a much bulkier end on it, and the 4mm internal hex didn't go all the way through like that one. If I hadn't made my own little one, I'd go for one of these I think. Please report back with some pics with ruler in the shot when you get it!

I was just using the one I made about an hour ago, to get between the frames to remove the lay shaft support bracket that the governor gear housing will connect to.

Chris
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 07, 2021, 09:50:28 PM
Moving on to the gear case for the governor assembly, which both covers the gears and holds the vertical shaft for the governor. Like the one on the crankshaft around the lay shaft gears, this one is in two halves so it can be taken off while leaving the lay shaft in place. The bottom half will be bolted to one of the lay shaft supports.

After digging around in the scrap bins, I found a couple chunks of bar stock left over from the pump base plates - I think they were sawn out of the centers of those plates. Perfect size for this case. The center needs to have a half-disc shape scooped out of the block for the large gear to sit in, the scoop wide enough for the pinion gear as well, then the outside will be shaped to leave a thin shell. Did some flailing about trying to decide how to hold them for all the operations, and settleed on this. The two blocks were drilled through for some long bolts that go into the faceplate - drilled/tapped two matching holes in the plate to hold the blocks with the center along the center of the plate. To give room for the end mill and its holder to reach down into the blocks, the blocks were stacked so I can work on the outer one - later will swap places to scoop out the second one.
(https://i.postimg.cc/V6GCT4WY/IMG-0192.jpg)
Took the scoop with several passes, lowering the mill head and running the rotary table back and forth. The very ends where it comes out of the block were done by moving the mill table in/out a little at the ends of the passes. The first end mill I started with didn't work out, realized it was not a center cutting one so had to dig out one that was!
A closer view at the scooped out section - you can see some marks on the top flat where the side of the end mill rubbed - those will be smoothed out with a truing pass later.
(https://i.postimg.cc/SRnMp8gc/IMG-0193.jpg)
When it was deep enough to put the gear in and have its center just below the edge of the block, I stopped:
(https://i.postimg.cc/FzwJFR68/IMG-0194.jpg)
Next will swap the blocks and do the same for the other one. After that can start nibbling away the outside of the shell - need to leave flanges for bolting them together, plus a mounting flange on the bottom one, and a block for the governor shaft on the top one.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on October 07, 2021, 10:09:59 PM
Interesting mounting technique!

With milling out the inside of those blocks, it must not be a full half-circle, otherwise, the top edge of the block would hit the top of the mill before you got to the edge of the cutting end, wouldn't it?   How'd you keep that from happening?  I made a little picture to help explain what I'm talking about.  I put a red circle where I'm picturing the collision.

You clearly have this all squared away, I'm just not seeing it.

Thanks Chris,
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 07, 2021, 10:19:21 PM
Interesting mounting technique!

With milling out the inside of those blocks, it must not be a full half-circle, otherwise, the top edge of the block would hit the top of the mill before you got to the edge of the cutting end, wouldn't it?   How'd you keep that from happening?  I made a little picture to help explain what I'm talking about.  I put a red circle where I'm picturing the collision.

You clearly have this all squared away, I'm just not seeing it.

Thanks Chris,
Kim
Exactly what happened - thats where I mentioned that the mill table had to be moved in/out a bit at the ends of the cut. When the cutter got as far around the semicircle as it would go, then I moved the table back to take that final bit of material off. So, the very ends of the semicircle are flat for a fraction.  Your diagram shows it perfectly.

(https://i.postimg.cc/Bn2LBJ8c/Hollow-out.jpg) :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on October 07, 2021, 10:30:47 PM
Ah!  OK, that makes perfect sense now!  I read what you said but clearly didn't grock it till now.

Thanks Chris!

Great work, as always.  Love following along :)  :popcorn:

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 07, 2021, 10:39:12 PM
Ah!  OK, that makes perfect sense now!  I read what you said but clearly didn't grock it till now.

Thanks Chris!

Great work, as always.  Love following along :) :popcorn:

Kim

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on October 07, 2021, 10:44:34 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 08, 2021, 04:51:19 PM
more shaping and nibbling away on the outside of the gear case. Hard to get a decent picture with the fresh cut brass, but here it is in process. The two halves are still stacked up on the faceplate to get room for the mill holder.

(https://i.postimg.cc/zGSm4m55/IMG-0196.jpg)
The main outside curves were done that way, but the areas where the screws went through still need to be taken down
(https://i.postimg.cc/hv76r6Mk/IMG-0197.jpg)
Those areas had to be done in the vise, turning after each pass and adjusting the depth
(https://i.postimg.cc/FKrt4PsS/IMG-0199.jpg)
Got the main shaping done and the flanges drilled/tapped/trimmed back. Its about ready for a trial fit on the engine, where I will mark out the angle for the vertical shaft through the boss on the top.
(https://i.postimg.cc/C129bSCC/IMG-0200.jpg)
This case is a bit wider than the original, since I had to use a coarser gear cutter - the original had a main bevel gear with 132 teeth, not practical at this scale.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on October 08, 2021, 07:10:53 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Great looking gearbag Chris!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 08, 2021, 08:06:14 PM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Great looking gearbag Chris!
Gearbag? Not Prada for sure, more of a Lada!    :Lol:

Just finished getting the governor shaft fitted, took a bit of fettling to get the gears to mesh smoothly, tricky to align gears when you can't look at them! The case is downstairs with a spritz of paint drying, pictures later when its assembled again.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: scc on October 08, 2021, 09:09:44 PM
Love to see all the "handle winding" work.  Not  a CNC machine in sight :LickLips:  Inspiring and encouraging!!!        Terry
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 08, 2021, 09:57:19 PM
Love to see all the "handle winding" work.  Not  a CNC machine in sight :LickLips:  Inspiring and encouraging!!!        Terry
Thanks Terry!  I like the hand work, its why I make things. Closest I get to CNC is using the CAD app to design and create plans, then its Count Number Cranks in the shop!

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 08, 2021, 10:02:44 PM
As mentioned a couple posts ago, earlier today I got the governor gear case and the vertical shaft fitted then painted. Forgot to post pictures then:
(https://i.postimg.cc/qM84JzyH/IMG-0202.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/t4pyYpNZ/IMG-0201.jpg)
Paint has set up enough to re-assemble things, and make a short video of things going roundy-roundy...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UC6dhybGg4
Great place to stop for the day! Good timing too, tomorrow afternoon the guy that got me the plans for this engine from over in Buffalo is stopping by to see the progress. Without those plans this project never could have happened!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on October 08, 2021, 10:04:12 PM
I wrote "bag" as it sure didn't look like a six sided "box"  :Lol:

And not only that, but it won't take long for it to get gucky in use, which some people spell "Gucci" - there's the bag ref again...... :naughty:

(actually it is just an odd habit of mine to call gearboxes gearbags - about 35 years ago there used to be a great writer for Road and Track magazine who I really enjoyed, called Henry N Manney III, and he used to call them gearbags especially if they were sloppy or burst during a car's tests. RIP Mr. Manney  :cheers:)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 08, 2021, 10:05:59 PM
I wrote "bag" as it sure didn't look like a six sided "box"  :Lol:

And not only that, but it won't take long for it to get gucky in use, which some people spell "Gucci" - there's the bag ref again...... :naughty:

(actually it is just an odd habit of mine to call gearboxes gearbags - about 35 years ago there used to be a great writer for Road and Track magazine who I really enjoyed, called Henry N Manney III, and he used to call them gearbags especially if they were sloppy or burst during a car's tests. RIP Mr. Manney  :cheers: )
:Lol:
Well, it does have six sides.... and some spares...!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Don1966 on October 08, 2021, 10:54:01 PM
Dog that is cooler then fireworks on the forth of July and did I say ……….I…………likeeeeeeee…… :Love:



 :drinking-41:
 Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 08, 2021, 10:59:12 PM
Dog that is cooler then fireworks on the forth of July and did I say ……….I…………likeeeeeeee…… :Love:



 :drinking-41:
 Don
Thanks Don!
 :drinking-41:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on October 08, 2021, 11:37:37 PM
Nice to see the gearbox going round and round!  Now I'm looking forward to seeing it turn a governor.   Or is the governor the pigeon-toed guy with the big nose, holding his arms out, going around and around in circles on top of the gearbox?  In which case it IS turning a governor!

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 08, 2021, 11:41:45 PM
Nice to see the gearbox going round and round!  Now I'm looking forward to seeing it turn a governor.   Or is the governor the pigeon-toed guy with the big nose, holding his arms out, going around and around in circles on top of the gearbox?  In which case it IS turning a governor!

Kim
Well, here in NY we recently threw out the governor...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steamer on October 08, 2021, 11:47:15 PM
 8)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RReid on October 09, 2021, 12:56:48 AM
All kinds of stuff moving every which way...luv it! :cheers:
(I too enjoyed HNM III)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on October 09, 2021, 03:01:03 AM
Cheers Ron! v good to find another fan of HNM III.  :Lol:

PS I remember his April road test of the Goodyear blimp.....a classic.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 09, 2021, 03:32:48 AM
Pretty sure it was in the back inside cover of R&T years ago they would have a funny caption on a picture, my favorite was of a Porsche down a hillside from the road, sideways up against a tree. Guy up on the road lighting a cigarette, caption "Good tires. Not great tires, but good tires..."
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on October 09, 2021, 01:41:22 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 09, 2021, 08:27:18 PM
Got the governor made - its a much simplified version, at this scale the ball weights are only .172" diameter, the screws for the hinges would have been way smaller than anything I have, 0-80's are way too big. So, I made it a rigid assembly, at least it does spin with the vertical rod. Also made the cover for the drive shaft gears (yet another pretty bevel gear hidden away).
(https://i.postimg.cc/cCr1Bnx5/IMG-0205.jpg)
Been a little while since the last overall picture:
(https://i.postimg.cc/RhySsZqC/IMG-0206.jpg)
Next I think it will be time to work on the cylinders. Was going to do the eccentric followers, but without something to connect to at the top they would be falling down all the time. The cylinders have separate base and top blocks, with the valves themselves in the base/top sections, the corliss pivot blocks are on the sides of the cylinders. The HP and IP cylinders are all corliss type rotating valves, on the LP the inlet is Corliss, the exhaust is poppet style. So, I need to take a pause and generate the drawings from the CAD version, and then figure out how they need to be modified to make them from bar stock - the original pieces have a labrynth of passages cast into them. I am thinking that the passages and valve shapes will be more like the ones on the MEM Corliss engine. Each cylinder end is a different size and shape, they are going to be interesting to machine out. LP piston is about 3" diameter.
This is what the cylinders look like, the valve rods are not shown here.
(https://i.postimg.cc/L6k4B22S/Image14.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/8z1pZ9z6/Image15.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on October 09, 2021, 10:59:06 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steamer on October 09, 2021, 11:15:12 PM
Holy Crap....I'ma gonna need more Popcorn!.....

 :popcorn:

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 09, 2021, 11:28:52 PM
Holy Crap....I'ma gonna need more Popcorn!.....

 :popcorn:

Dave
Get an extra bag, this build has a ways to go!   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steamer on October 09, 2021, 11:30:44 PM
And that's simple compared to the Ohio plant....yeah yeah  stick poke!....I'm getting closer to it..

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 10, 2021, 12:43:19 AM
And that's simple compared to the Ohio plant....yeah yeah  stick poke!....I'm getting closer to it..

Dave
Stick Poke and Pester!  Attorneys At Law.    :ROFL:


I'd say no rush since lots to do with this build, but you have me intrigued with the big Ohio engine.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 10, 2021, 03:03:28 AM
This afternoon the gentleman who got me the plans for the Holly engine stopped by to see the progress. Long fun conversation. Partway through I asked if he knew what was there before the Holly engines. Turns out when he found the plans, bound i  giant books, in the lower level of the station buried in cabinets no one knew were there anymore, there was another set. Of the engines in the previous pump house, no longer there. That set was not digitized, but he is going to get me a picture of the cover shots at least.
Did some digging tonight, and learned that in 1852 a pair of Cornish Bull engines were installed, 50" cylinders, 10' stroke, 24" pump cylinders, 6 to 7 strokes per minute. Those numbers imply a beam engine. It was made by IP Morris of Philadelphia, who were known for big beam engines.
So  with a little luck, another engine joins the queue of builds. Would be amazing to be able to build both engines used in the Buffalo water works.
Stay tuned... Looks like the shop elves will be hiring! I better get more cookies baking.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on October 10, 2021, 03:07:15 AM
Might be a good idea to call the Elfensteiner brewery to get them to ramp up production, too. Those shop elves are thirsty!  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 10, 2021, 03:30:57 AM
Might be a good idea to call the Elfensteiner brewery to get them to ramp up production, too. Those shop elves are thirsty!  :Lol:
Oh, yeah, more elves, bigger parties, more cleanup, more trips to bail them out,   um... Maybe not!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on October 10, 2021, 06:21:19 AM
Good thing you got another project in the works.  I think you were about to run dry - what only 10-15 other things in the queue?  I'd hate to see you get bored, Chris! :lolb:

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 10, 2021, 07:12:24 PM
Been going through the CAD model for the cylinders and making up the 2D drawings. One thing that makes them a bit 'simpler'  :-X is the fact that each is made of several pieces - the top/bottom caps contain the valves, and the central cylinder has just the mounting bosses for the valve cranks which connect to the eccentric followers. Each cylinder is a different diameter and valve configuration, but the general shapes are the same - here is the HP cylinder exploded out to see the insides of the end caps, showing the openings through to the rotary valves (one inlet and one exhaust valve at each end of the cylinder):

(https://i.postimg.cc/SRsnZGbW/HP-Cylinder.jpg)
The cylinder could be a simple piece of turning if not for the bosses. They make it look a bit like a three-handed Dalek! Those bosses mean that I'll have to silver solder on some round stock. That means I'd have to turn the outside to shape, drill through, and solder. I'd likely do all that before finish boring out the center, just in case there is any movement from the heating.  I can't drill in for the bosses without breaking through into the bore, the walls are too thin and the bosses are off center. Now, another approach would be to mill the ends of the bosses and solder them to the outside, with no holes, which would prevent having seams on the inside of the bore. Would need a jig to hold the parts in place for soldering, but not having internal seams sounds like a good thing, right?  Thinking out loud here, no decision has been made on any of this - feel free to chime in!

On the end caps, the two tubes close together are for the rotarty valves - the single holes in the other side are the steam inlet/exhaust passages, those drill through into the valve chambers. On the real ones, just inside the inlet/exhaust pipe ends it opens up into a wide chamber to give maximum volume to the ports, those chambers being cast into the block. I can't mill that out from the outside, so the ports will have to be limited to the the width of the pipes. That should be no problem - for the model the volume is many times smaller than the real ones, and going by other models that will be enough.

As for material, the HP and possibly IP cylinder assemblies can be all brass. The LP cylinder is so big that the end caps will be aluminum. I have two automotive cylinder liners that can be used as the center for the LP and IP cylinders, though that means making a sleeve with all the ribs and bosses on the sides. More thought needed there...


The valve holes are the trickiest part - any mistakes there ruins the entire block, and wear is also an issue. So, am thinking of making a cast iron liner for those - have some Durabar left over from the Stanley project. That would let me drill/ream/bore/whatever the center, side-mill in the ports, and fit the valve itself seperately from the block, and loctite the sleeves in place at the end. Worst case would be remaking a sleeve. Also can pressure test each valve seperately.

Been through my bar stock shelves, I have the material on hand to make the HP cylinder, and have ordered some 1" thick brass and aluminum stock for the IP and LP top/bottom caps. The LP caps are nearly 4" across.

As mentioned above - feel free to chime in if it looks like I am missing something or you see a better way of doing any of it!
 :cheers:
Chris
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dan Rowe on October 10, 2021, 08:30:02 PM
Chris, what are the three bosses for? It seems like you will need a fixture to machine the face of the boss next to the cylinder wall so that could also be the soldering fixture also. If a hole in the cylinder is not needed it seems like a bad idea to make one just for the bosses.

I like the valve liner idea makes it simpler to get a precise fit.

Cheers Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 10, 2021, 08:45:42 PM
Chris, what are the three bosses for? It seems like you will need a fixture to machine the face of the boss next to the cylinder wall so that could also be the soldering fixture also. If a hole in the cylinder is not needed it seems like a bad idea to make one just for the bosses.

I like the valve liner idea makes it simpler to get a precise fit.

Cheers Dan


Hi Dan,


I'd rather not have to drill into the cylinder wall, its fairly thin. I like your thinking about making a holding fixture for the bosses that would let me mill the inner ends to match the radius of the cylinder outside, and the use that same fixture to hold them for soldering in place. The holes in the bosses don't go through the cylinder.
Here is a picture showing most of what goes on the bosses - the empty one gets a damper for the valve above, have not modeled that yet. The pairs at the top and bottom in the end caps are the ends of the rotary valves - all this stuff gets connected by control rods, not drawn yet.
(https://i.postimg.cc/s2rtCjD2/Image19.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 10, 2021, 08:54:55 PM
Oh, and all the hooks/releases/etc in the corliss valves will be dummies, at this scale making them function is beyond what I can do.  Seems wierd to call a 100+ pound model tiny, but the 1:32 scale is small for those kinds of parts. I think I mis-spoke a few posts back and called it 1:16, its actually 1:32.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on October 10, 2021, 11:18:34 PM
Wow! those are complex parts!  I think you're on the right track, not drilling through into the cylinders.  But as you say, the challenge will be holding the bosses in place while soldering.  I'm looking forward to your solution on this one!  :popcorn: :popcorn:

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on October 11, 2021, 02:40:26 AM
Hi Chris, to add those bosses to the cylinder, I would suggest making a soldering jig with 3 mandrels to hold blind bosses in place in correct locations- and make no cuts into the cyl wall for the bosses. The bosses could be made as tubes and have the ends at the cylinder wall flycut to the correct radius of the cylinder at the correct centre. If the jig is designed for it ahead of time, jig could be used to hold the boss tubes for flycutting too. If two sets of mandrels were made, one for flycutting, with bolt flanges to secure the bosses with screws, and a second rougher set of plain diameters to hold the boss tubes for silver soldering, that would solve boss cyl end machining and soldering to cyl with one tool per cyl dia that needed it. The frame could be a simple vertical steel bar to hold the mandrels with steel end plates top and bottom to be added (bolted on) for the soldering configuration of the jig. A pilot pin into the cyl bore through a bored hole in each endplate would enable soldering alignment of jig / mandrels to cylinder. for flycutting bosses, just the jig bar, mandrels and boss tubes, without the endplates assembled, could be held in the mill vise vertically and the flycutter used vertically side saddle style to cut the boss radii.

Now that I built it mentally, I'll have a virtual  :DrinkPint:. That inventin is thirsty work.

By the way, be sure to name your mandrels. For 3, you might use Huey Duey and Louie, or Moe Larry and Curly, but for one, I suggest Barbara.  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on October 11, 2021, 02:47:57 AM
It just occurred to me that if you make the Corliss valve blocks / plates from solid bar, and not from cored castings - you will be making a coreless Corliss.  :Lol:
:facepalm:

now running away from the pun police!  ::)    :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 11, 2021, 03:57:07 AM
Hi CNR,


First off, a flaming shop gnome has been launched from the pun police catapult in your direction.   :Lol:




For the jig, why make two? The second one with just the holes would depend on gravity to keep the bosses down against the cylinder. Seems like the same one could be used for cutting and soldering, just add more cutout holes for flame to get past, and a bracket to clip it to the cylinder.
I haven't done any serious sketching on the shop elves whiteboard yet either, so the plan will likely be tweaked several times more!
Oh, and each cylinder will need its own jig, different spacings and diameters.
Hmmm, a shop elf in a little Iron Man suit could work...  :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on October 11, 2021, 04:27:35 AM
the same one could be used for cutting and soldering, just add more cutout holes for flame to get past, and a bracket to clip it to the cylinder.

Yeah, on the one jig thing - I'm worrying that any jig beefy enough to hold them for machining will be a BIG heatsink when you go to use it for soldering.  Are you adding the flame holes AFTER you use it for the machining?  The solder holding jig doesn't need to be nearly as beefy as the machining jig.

Maybe you have one machining jig that holds the bosses for machining, then you have little inserts you put in the machining jig with longish little rods that would hold the bosses in the right place for soldering but not have the whole heat sink mass behind them.  You could use the inserts on all the cylinders, but each cylinder would likely need a different machining jig...

Don't you love it when everyone tries to solve your problems in obtuse ways?  With all the noise, how can you even think?!   :LittleDevil:

Good luck, Chris. Looking forward to seeing your undoubtedly better solution.
Kim

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 11, 2021, 12:44:47 PM
Good points Kim.  Nothing worked out yet, I am starting with the top and bottom caps, so it will be a week or two till I get to the cylinder for the hp assembly, plenty of time to let the fixture perk away in the back of the brain.


Yesterday got the blanks for the hp parts cut to rough length and stress relieved in the oven, can start shaping today.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on October 11, 2021, 02:31:01 PM
Hi Chris and Kim, all good points re the cylinder boss fixture I described. Some further points of explanation / my reasoning below:

1. By making the jig frame and end plates from flat bars, there should be lots of room for flame flow and minimal contact with the parts being soldered.

2. I was thinking two sets of mandrels - one for machining and one set for soldering. The ones for machining would have a bolt flange and holes to fit screws in the boss stud holes to hold the bosses to the jig during flycutting. Their diameters would act as a locator for each boss and the screws would keep the bosses indexed or "timed" correctly to the cylinder during the cutting. The machining set of mandrels would be a snug fit in the boss holes and extend out to the end of the bosses for best support. The mandrel ends would be cut away during flycutting of the bosses. It may be best to make these mandrels from bronze or brass for easier / less disruptive flycutting. For the soldering mandrels, They would be steel preferably a bit rusty to take the soldering heat and be just round stubs to fit the boss ID with a shoulder to rest against the bolting face. This  shoulder does two jobs- it protects the small bolt holes in the boss from soldering flame, and ensures the boss does not rise or shift away from the cylinder during soldering. I don't think it would be wise to depend on gravity to hold the bosses steady, with the curved contact faces of the bosses to the cylinder. They will likely want to do the Moldovian death wobble (at least they would in my shop) as soon as the solder starts flowing just perfectly.....The stub end that goes in each boss could be relieved three places with flats to reduce heat transfer / reduce chance of sticking onto the bosses/ provide some cooling airflow. Three diameter lands next to the flats would still locate the bosses perfectly. (same idea as a fixturing diamond pin, but with three points of contact rather than two on the diamond pins.)

3. all mandrels would have a shoulder against the cylinder / inner face of the frame vertical bar and a thread sticking out of the bar with a nut to secure it on the outboard end.

4. The end plates and pilot pins fitting the cylinder bore would bolt on to the vertical frame bar ends (and ideally they would be dowelled to the frame bar ends for perfect location but the location may be fine with just using the holding bolt shanks. By using endplates top and bottom and the pilot pins, alignment of bosses to cylinder - both the boss faces and the boss round part alignment in space- has the best chance of surviving the soldering. Again I definitely would not depend on gravity / eye to get three bosses aligned on a cylindrical surface. A bit of time toolmaking would be well spent on this op. Oh, and the pins in the cylinder bores could have three relief flats as mentioned for the mandrels above, to reduce heat transfer and allow cooling airflow.

5. I would also recommend Kozo's centre punch mark on soldering face method to ensure a two thou or so gap for solder to penetrate the boss face to cylinder wall joint. Three punch marks per boss at roughly 120 degrees apart would likely work very well.

Hope these ideas help with your fixturing development Chris.

Oh, and the flaming shop elf you catapulted last night  landed on the old picnic table in the back yard, exploding it with a big crash, and started it on fire. The shop elf survived ok once we got the flames out on his clothes and pointy hat (with beer, naturally) , and we all enjoyed roasting hot dogs on the picnic table fire.  :Lol:

Off to my shop now for more mayhem and swarf generation.  :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 11, 2021, 02:42:29 PM
Hi CNR - that makes a lot of sense! I had been thinking that the jig would just have screw holes through to screw into the bosses to be machined, but having the piece through the center of the boss and through the machining jig for more support would stiffen up everything a lot, I like that.

Also, just realized that the machining jig needs to be short enough for the end mill holder just above the bosses - I had been thinking it would be the length of the cylinder to aid in holding in place for soldering, but that would get in the way for machining. Two jigs, one heavier machining one and one lighter soldering one make more sense to me now. 

As for item 4 - when prepping for soldering, I was going to leave the cylinder bore only partly done to reduce any heat warpage issues (that may just be paranoia, but sometimes thats a good thing). With more material left in the bore at that point, the end plates for soldering could be just screwed onto the ends of the cylinder, the places where those screws are would be bored away later.

All good tips Kim/CNR, thanks very much!
 :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Oh, and CNR, you didn't read the catapult post closely enough. That was a shop GNOME that was flung at you. Overnight, he probably stole the drill bit you are looking for right now...!   :LittleDevil:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 11, 2021, 02:54:30 PM
With the HP cylinder blanks stress relieved yesterday, this morning I started roughing out the bottom cylinder cap (which also holds the lower end valves). Started with a length of round brass bar, marked out the rectangle to be milled to, and flattened off the two narrow sides.
(https://i.postimg.cc/YSXvjfqG/IMG-0208.jpg)
Not much material to remove on those first sides, so it was just done on the mill. For the wider sides, I first took off a slice on the bandsaw to speed things up (and create a new piece for the bin used for RC submarine ballast chunks). Then milled off that side to depth.
(https://i.postimg.cc/8zmJgg2b/IMG-0209.jpg)
I only sliced off one side on the saw at first, wanted to still have the original surface at the bottom of the vise to level the part. After the first side was milled, went back to the saw and sliced the second side.

Then was in the other room for a few minutes, when I came back the shop elves were trying to carry off the pieces - apparently they have been reading what you guys say about the price of brass and they thought they had found a gold brick and King Midas's wing panels...
(https://i.postimg.cc/P5jp75Rx/IMG-0210.jpg)
Fortunately I had picked up some three foot long 'drops' of 2 and 2-1/4" diameter brass bar from the metal supplier at bargain prices. So, after confiscating the pieces back and duct taping the elves to the end of the bench, the fourth side of the brick was milled flat
(https://i.postimg.cc/DzfW2YF3/IMG-0211.jpg)
I want to face the ends for good reference points later, then can lay out the next sets of cuts. The bottom caps look excessively thick, but they are undercut on the bottom faces, leaving room for the piston rod glands, and also on the LP cylinder it needs room underneath for the poppet valve levers. All the bottom caps are the same thickness, so the cylinders wind up all at the same level.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dan Rowe on October 11, 2021, 06:41:38 PM
Hi Chris, I counted 28 stud holes to attach this part to the cylinder. What size screw will you be using for the connection? It looks tiny.

Cheers Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 11, 2021, 06:46:03 PM
After lunch and some time out reading on the porch (great fall weather this week up here) I did a little more shaping on the HP lower valve block. Started with notching in the ends
(https://i.postimg.cc/FFStDykj/IMG-0212.jpg)
then angling in the lower section where a gusset will stick out
(https://i.postimg.cc/dV4gLngK/IMG-0213.jpg)
and notching in the bottom flange
(https://i.postimg.cc/139LmbCH/IMG-0214.jpg)
and lastly angling in the lower section either side of the flange
(https://i.postimg.cc/dtcbXhGg/IMG-0215.jpg)
Here it is so far:
(https://i.postimg.cc/FsbMQhZz/IMG-0217.jpg)
Still lots to go, I think the next step will be to bore through for the valve tubes and in from the sides for the steam inlet/exhaust tubes. Both need a pipe section and bolting flange sticking out.
A couple posts back I mentioned using some Durabar cast iron for the valve tubes, but I may change my mind and use some bearing bronze instead. If I use the iron, that means either making the outer flange from the iron, or putting another tube out around that, which means that outer tube gets pretty thin. The bolt flange is only about .1" thick, sticking out from the pipe section with the bolt circle in it. That seems a bit thin for cast iron, am thinking that might be a little brittle? If I use the bronze, know it will take any side flexing loads from bumping the pipes and valve cranks. The inner valve core would be stainless steel either way.It doesnt show well in the CAD picture I showed,
(https://i.postimg.cc/s2rtCjD2/Image19.jpg)but the lower flanges have a short narrower pipe section behind them, which you can see better in the upper right valve, the one in the top cap. That means that the flange (which all get screws through them, not shown in the CAD picture) would not be supported on the back side like the picture makes it look. :thinking:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 11, 2021, 06:54:41 PM
Hi Chris, I counted 28 stud holes to attach this part to the cylinder. What size screw will you be using for the connection? It looks tiny.

Cheers Dan
Hi Dan,
Yup - 28 studs per end on the HP cylinder. It would be nice to use 2-56, but they would look kind of big there, I am thinking on using 1-72 on them. Lots and lots of them...! At this scale it works out to the equivalent of just over a 2.25" bolt. A 2-56 would be a 3" bolt. The real ones are 1.75" diameter, but I don't think 0-80's would be practical.  The IP will have 40 bolts per end, the LP gets 56 of them per end.

Chris
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dan Rowe on October 11, 2021, 07:18:05 PM
I don't think 0-80's would be practical. 

Hi Chris, I do 0-80 form taps in silicon bronze which is tougher than brass. Check ebay for 0-80 form taps I spotted several around $10 or so. I use a tapping stand to keep things straight but I have not broken one tapping yet. Dropping one on the floor is another story..... :embarassed:

Cheers Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 11, 2021, 07:51:58 PM
I don't think 0-80's would be practical. 

Hi Chris, I do 0-80 form taps in silicon bronze which is tougher than brass. Check ebay for 0-80 form taps I spotted several around $10 or so. I use a tapping stand to keep things straight but I have not broken one tapping yet. Dropping one on the floor is another story..... :embarassed:

Cheers Dan
Have not tried one yet - do they work well in brass as well? If I understand them, they dont have cutting flutes, but deform the metal from a slightly larger hole than a cutting tap, and form the ridges of the threads that way? No cutting flutes so a thicker core, so stronger?
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dan Rowe on October 11, 2021, 09:06:16 PM
Chris, yes they are stronger than cutting taps and they will work in any ductile metal. I even used a 0-80 with the Shapeways composite stainless steel which is not easy to tap. The hole is larger than a cutting tap. Rule of thumb for a cutting tap is subtract the pitch from the thread OD to get the drill size. Rule of thumb for form taps subtract 1/2 the pitch from the thread OD for the drill size.

Yes you are correct about how they work they deform the metal to make the threads so cast iron or hard steel are not going to work with a form tap.

I just made a batch of 1.5mm square nuts with a 1mm form tap in nickel silver. It went very smoothly.

I would much rather use a 1mm form tap than a 1-72 cutting tap. I hate waiting for that sound of a tap breaking and so far I have never broken a form tap.

Cheers Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 11, 2021, 09:34:15 PM
Thanks Dan, sounds like it is worth getting some to try out!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dan Rowe on October 11, 2021, 10:30:33 PM
Chris, and all who own a giant penny and need small taps.... Form taps are on ebay all the way down to M0.5.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/202394765515?hash=item2f1fab08cb:g:ytoAAOSwypVbaQq-

So far M1 is as small as I have gone but I have some 000-120 form taps just waiting for a need.

Cheers Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Craig DeShong on October 11, 2021, 11:45:38 PM
I stepped away from this post to get a new tub of popcorn and there were THREE pages of posts to review when I got back. :o

Geez, can't even step away for a few minutes!

This build is over the top Chris.

 :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 11, 2021, 11:53:44 PM
Dan,  those are some teensy taps!  I am going to get asome of the smallish ones, big in comparison, 1-72,2-56,0-80 and try them out on brass and bronze. Any suggestions on hss, cobalt, coatings??  Oboy, new tools to shop for!   :cartwheel:




Craig, you need a faster popcorn machine!! :Lol:   Catch up now, no more progress posts till tomorrow. More work has been done, but I won't post the pictures till tomorrow!   :atcomputer:




 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dan Rowe on October 12, 2021, 12:20:00 AM
Chris, I mostly go for cheap name brands if I can get them. I have a tap stand and all US and most name brands have a #6 shank for any tap #6 and smaller, which works in the holder. I have only used the larger holders a few times.

Cheers Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on October 12, 2021, 12:51:44 AM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Valve block looks great Chris! Nice to see more solid gold being cut. (and purloined by enterprising shop elves!)

Re Gnome vs Elf - wish I'd known he was a gnome - sure enough my 5/32" drill and the #10-24 tap are missing, and there is no sign of the Gnome! I've got a BOLO out at the local hardware stores in case he tries to peddle the drill and tap out in their parking lot!  :Lol:

If he shows up again here, I'll catapult him northeast to another shop guy I know - who has an intact picnic table and a full rack of drills!  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 12, 2021, 01:35:45 AM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Valve block looks great Chris! Nice to see more solid gold being cut. (and purloined by enterprising shop elves!)

Re Gnome vs Elf - wish I'd known he was a gnome - sure enough my 5/32" drill and the #10-24 tap are missing, and there is no sign of the Gnome! I've got a BOLO out at the local hardware stores in case he tries to peddle the drill and tap out in their parking lot!  :Lol:

If he shows up again here, I'll catapult him northeast to another shop guy I know - who has an intact picnic table and a full rack of drills!  :Lol:


 :lolb: :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 12, 2021, 01:37:21 AM
Chris, I mostly go for cheap name brands if I can get them. I have a tap stand and all US and most name brands have a #6 shank for any tap #6 and smaller, which works in the holder. I have only used the larger holders a few times.

Cheers Dan
Thanks Dan. I got a tap stand earlier this year, that helps a lot. Will pick up some form taps and give them a try.


 :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steamboatmodel on October 12, 2021, 02:25:55 AM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Valve block looks great Chris! Nice to see more solid gold being cut. (and purloined by enterprising shop elves!)

Re Gnome vs Elf - wish I'd known he was a gnome - sure enough my 5/32" drill and the #10-24 tap are missing, and there is no sign of the Gnome! I've got a BOLO out at the local hardware stores in case he tries to peddle the drill and tap out in their parking lot!  :Lol:

If he shows up again here, I'll catapult him northeast to another shop guy I know - who has an intact picnic table and a full rack of drills!  :Lol:
I just hope I am not NE of you, I have enough problems with the Gnomes I have.
Gerald.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on October 12, 2021, 02:57:28 AM
 :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on October 12, 2021, 05:22:40 AM
Chris,
I've used small form taps in brass and they work well.  I think you'll be pleased.

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 12, 2021, 12:46:52 PM
Chris,
I've used small form taps in brass and they work well.  I think you'll be pleased.

Kim
Got a couple sizes on order, will give a report on them when they arrive!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 12, 2021, 02:58:32 PM
Okay Craig, hope you are caught up, we are off and running again!   :)

Yesterday afternoon got started on the holes for the valve assemblies and the steam passages - drilled to a size under and reamed out to size:
(https://i.postimg.cc/9XgwCf7p/IMG-0218.jpg)
The valve holes go all the way through the block, the steam passages come in from the side and meet them.
(https://i.postimg.cc/C52RNvgt/IMG-0219.jpg)
This morning the bottom recess was milled out. This recess gives room for the piston rod gland above the crosshead, which comes up to the level of the base. First milled the main opening down square to the base:
(https://i.postimg.cc/DyWJZKQK/IMG-0220.jpg)
Then took angled cuts either side for the 'ramps'.

(https://i.postimg.cc/zGKyCSPt/IMG-0221.jpg)
The last major shaping of the outside was to center it up on the rotary table in the four-jaw chuck, and mill the boss in that the cylinder sits on.

(https://i.postimg.cc/nc6s9wT9/IMG-0222.jpg)
Later on, after the valves are made, openings will be milled in from the top to meet the valves, and the center of the top circle will be milled down for the lip from the cylinder to sit in. Also, will drill the mounting holes from the cylinder. I am going to leave the base block in the four-jaw for now, since it is already nicely centered up.

Next I want to start on the valve assemblies - going to do a couple experiments to see the best way to drill/ream/bore/whatever the tubes and make the valve rods with their cutouts to be a good match. More to come on how that goes - will make the first pair, then probably will crank up the assembly line and turn out the rest of them. In all there are ten valve sets needed, four each for inlet/exhaust either end of the HP and IP cylinders, and two more for the LP inlet. The LP exhaust are poppet valves, will be the first time I've made those.Right now, getting close to lunch time, and its warming up outside so another good day to spend out doors!
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Craig DeShong on October 12, 2021, 05:25:18 PM
Okay Craig, hope you are caught up, we are off and running again!   :)


(https://i.postimg.cc/1XL2t1RH/running.jpg) I'm try'in Chris.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on October 13, 2021, 12:00:06 AM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: kvom on October 13, 2021, 07:20:43 AM
Is the intention to run on steam?

If not, I recall discussions from the past about running the Stuart triplel on air using only one cylinder.

It looks as if the exhaust from one cylinder is connected straight to its neighbor.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 13, 2021, 12:31:15 PM
Is the intention to run on steam?

If not, I recall discussions from the past about running the Stuart triplel on air using only one cylinder.

It looks as if the exhaust from one cylinder is connected straight to its neighbor.
Hi Kvom,


I don't have a boiler suitable for running this engine, so it will be run on air. Since compound triples are not really good on air with its lower expansion, I am planning to have bypass pipes and valves on the connections between the cylinders supply air to and exhaust from each one. With the extra size of the IP and LP ones, a needle valve on each should let me balance the flows. Fortunately there are lots of places to hide the extra pipes with the receiver tanks and cladding. You are correct that each one normally connects to the next, there are large reciever tanks between them. Some engines like this had steam heating coils in the receivers, but the Holly plans don't show the coils. Its possible some were fitted later, but I can't tell.
Since I am making the cylinders one at a time, I'll be testing it for running when the HP is done, looking forward to that! Still weeks away...


Chris
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 13, 2021, 02:32:11 PM
Been doing some experimenting on the valve tubes/valve rods, and think I've worked it out. Drilling the bronze one size under 1/4", reaming with a 1/4" reamer (tried a 1/4"-under reamer, too small to start the rod in, 1/4"-over is too large and it wobbles), then finishing with some very-fine Timesavers compound in oil. That gets a very nice fit of the rod I have in stock in the valve body. For the valve opening in the rod, I milled a flat on the side and that appears to work fine. So, the short offcut bits of bronze were worth keeping on the shelf for this! With a process worked out, I'll be able to make up the first set of rotary valves for testing with the HP base.

Also got a start on the pipe connections for the inlet/exhaust from the base block - going to need those for the testing anyway. These are simple tubes with a flange drilled for screws, and will be loctited and pinned into the block. Turned down a set of the fittings (made enough for the HP and IP end caps, the LP ones will be a different size). Then set up on the rotary table to drill the screw holes:
(https://i.postimg.cc/xTFQRnjp/IMG-0225.jpg)
Couple more to drill, then need to tap all the holes. Here are the first couple test fit on the HP base block:
(https://i.postimg.cc/xTdYMcQb/IMG-0224.jpg)
They were made of brass, no moving parts on them. The valve bodies will be made from bearing bronze since they will have the moving valve rods in them.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 14, 2021, 02:45:55 PM
A while back we had a discussion on split bearing blocks and how they adjust, when I was making the con-rods for the Holly engine. The Holly plans showed using little spacer packs to keep the bearing blocks apart. This morning I was drawing up the con rods for the Allis pumping engine, and in those plans show a different method for doing the same job, they used four long screws, one on each corner:
(https://i.postimg.cc/tRPGKJQL/Image21.jpg)


Interesting!

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on October 14, 2021, 03:21:12 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: ddmckee54 on October 14, 2021, 07:41:33 PM
It's going to be interesting to see how you duplicate THAT particular feature.  We want videos of you, or the elves, drilling and tapping those holes.  What will they be, about a 000000-Gazilion thread?

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 14, 2021, 08:24:35 PM
It's going to be interesting to see how you duplicate THAT particular feature.  We want videos of you, or the elves, drilling and tapping those holes.  What will they be, about a 000000-Gazilion thread?

Don
:ROFL:
The original has 3/4" diameter screws for those adjusting ones, so not as bad as some of them. Fortunately I am not building the Allis engine (yet, anyway) so the elves dont need the magifier yet!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 15, 2021, 06:14:11 PM

Back on the valves again today, started by turning the valve tubes out of lengths of bearing bronze. To give room to grip them, I turned them in pairs with the flanges towards the center, then cut them apart and faced the flanges to thickness.
(https://i.postimg.cc/NFZJYMpJ/IMG-0226.jpg)
Then each valve tube was chucked back up in the lathe, drilled, reamed, then lapped with some very fine grade Timesavers in oil. Messy job, but it gave a good fit on the valve rod material. Here are two of them slipped into place in the lower HP valve block:
(https://i.postimg.cc/7PSmTxtk/IMG-0227.jpg)
Next up will be to drill the screw holes in the end flanges, mill the openings int he sides of the tubes, and then can start in on the valve rods themselves....
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on October 15, 2021, 09:15:54 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

"totally tubular, man" as some folks said in the 1980's  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 15, 2021, 09:32:03 PM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

"totally tubular, man" as some folks said in the 1980's  :Lol:
Surfs up dude...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on October 15, 2021, 10:11:24 PM
 :Lol: get ready to hang ten (thou)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 15, 2021, 10:28:50 PM
The other day Dan Rowe tipped me to the roll form taps for the smaller sizes in brass and bronze, it sounded interesting so I ordered some, in 0-80 and 1-72. The 1-72 one arrived today, just gave it a try. Looked up the drill size online, nearest I have is a #51, just an elves-whisker larger than the 1.7mm the chart said. Drilled some holes in a bit of 3/8" thick brass, some in the middle, some near the edge, and one just partway through.

My reaction, quite impressed! The full thickness of the tap, with no flutes, makes it a lot stronger, and it goes in with same or less effort than a normal cutting tap. Since it does not clog up with chips, since there are none, it goes in the full depth the same, no backing out to clear chips. Not sure if I should use any oil with it, did not seem to need it on the brass at least. The only difference I can spot in the holes from a cutting tap is that it raises just a little more of a bur at the entry point:

(https://i.postimg.cc/7ZQ64JzM/IMG-0229.jpg)

A drill or cutting tap does some of that, this does it taller, but a swipe with a flat file takes it right off again. Given the number of small holes I need to tap in the cylinders, this will be quite handy! The other size is supposed to be here tomorrow. The cutting style taps will still get used on steel, but for the brass and bronze this should be great. I assume it works on aluminum too, probably better to use oil on that with its tendancy to be sticky?

Dan, thanks!!!
 :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dan Rowe on October 15, 2021, 10:49:04 PM
Chris, I use a tapping grease for these as it sticks to the tap better than the runny stuff. I use them in mild steel also as I make square nuts from key stock.

#51 gives 64 percent thread and 1.7 is 65 percent thread. I usually try for the closest drill I have to 65 percent thread.

Cheers Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 15, 2021, 11:29:28 PM
Chris, I use a tapping grease for these as it sticks to the tap better than the runny stuff. I use them in mild steel also as I make square nuts from key stock.

#51 gives 64 percent thread and 1.7 is 65 percent thread. I usually try for the closest drill I have to 65 percent thread.

Cheers Dan
Thanks!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on October 16, 2021, 12:19:27 AM
Cool! Glad you like the form taps.   I've found them great to use also.  Though right now I'm using mostly spiral point taps (gun taps) since almost everything I'm doing is in steel.  Still, I like the form taps!

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 16, 2021, 03:02:24 PM
Today the 1-72 form tap got its first real use. Started in on the back covers for the valve tubes, turned a length of round bar to diameter with a step on the end to locate it in the end of the tube. Then over to the rotary table to drill the 1-72 clearance holes around the rim:
(https://i.postimg.cc/vmVPZxPw/IMG-0230.jpg)
Parted off, and repeat three more times....
Then with the same position on the mill, chucked up the first of the valve tubes, back end out, and drilled matching tap-sized holes for the screws:
(https://i.postimg.cc/cH7XQyyD/IMG-0231.jpg)
Quick run in/out of the form tap, and ready for screws:
(https://i.postimg.cc/gJbgXc5X/IMG-0232.jpg)
Three more valve tubes to go, then will start on the front side bonnets for the valve rods...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: mklotz on October 16, 2021, 03:26:23 PM
There's a program (DRILL) on my webpage to calculate tapdrill sizes for form taps.  Just to ensure that it got the same results as you guys did, I ran this case through it and it came up with 1.7 mm as the closest available drill for 65% depth of thread and #51 as the next smaller dot, 64%.

For the benefit of readers who may want to try form taps and don't have access to a means of computing tapdrill size, the formula is:

dtd = td - 0.0068 * dot / p

where:

dtd = diameter of tap drill
td = nominal diameter of tap (0.073 for #1)
dot = depth of thread expressed as percentage (65 for this case)
p = thread pitch expressed as threads/inch (72 for this case)

Now, if you plug all those numbers into the formula, you get:

dtd = 0.06686 inches

which, when multiplied by 25.4 yields 1.698 mm implying a 1.7 mm drill.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 16, 2021, 03:31:50 PM
There's a program (DRILL) on my webpage to calculate tapdrill sizes for form taps.  Just to ensure that it got the same results as you guys did, I ran this case through it and it came up with 1.7 mm as the closest available drill for 65% depth of thread and #51 as the next smaller dot, 64%.

For the benefit of readers who may want to try form taps and don't have access to a means of computing tapdrill size, the formula is:

dtd = td - 0.0068 * dot / p

where:

dtd = diameter of tap drill
td = nominal diameter of tap (0.073 for #1)
dot = depth of thread expressed as percentage (65 for this case)
p = thread pitch expressed as threads/inch (72 for this case)

Now, if you plug all those numbers into the formula, you get:

dtd = 0.06686 inches

which, when multiplied by 25.4 yields 1.698 mm implying a 1.7 mm drill.
Excellent Marv - thanks!!

Now I need a program to re-educate my brain, its been so many years of knowing which drill size to grab for the common tap sizes that I am likely to just grab the cutting-tap size out of habit!   :hammerbash:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steamboatmodel on October 16, 2021, 04:00:13 PM
Hi Chris,
I had a case at one time for storeing the taps and drills, It held the drill sized for cutting, the three taps and the clearance drill all in a line. The one I had was made of plastic and eventually fell apart, I keep saying I am going to make another in wood or metal.
Gerald.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 16, 2021, 06:24:41 PM
Hi Chris,
I had a case at one time for storeing the taps and drills, It held the drill sized for cutting, the three taps and the clearance drill all in a line. The one I had was made of plastic and eventually fell apart, I keep saying I am going to make another in wood or metal.
Gerald.
Hi Gerald,
I have mine in one of those plastic compartment boxes from the fishing tackle aisle of the sporting goods store. Keeps all the taps/dies well sorted, but then I go and buy more sizes, and need a bigger box with more compartments...  That won't fit in the same drawer...   :facepalm2:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 16, 2021, 06:49:16 PM
This morning I got an email from the guy over in Buffalo that I got the Holly plans from - he came across this picture that he took years ago at the Buffalo Color Corp factory - they used to make aniline dyes and such. He was wondering what it was, if it is a steam engine?
(https://i.postimg.cc/dt7ZXb4D/Buffalo-Color-Engine.jpg)
Looks to me like it may be a Corliss valve engine out the lower left side, looks like it may be the four back valve covers around the corners of the rectangle cover facing the camera, flywheel on the right, then some sort of pump or compressor or grinder or something up vertically to the top?? Anyone here know what this machine is?

And to continue the side-track-morning, I've been noodling around with ways to make small globe valves for the models. I've searched through this and other forums, found the versions that George and others have done, lots of variation on the theme, all do-able, most with a silver soldered core down the center that has the cross passages cut into before soldering. Then, I came across the drawing in the Holly plans for the full sized one on that engine, which is a little different (same general theme but different construction) :
(https://i.postimg.cc/7YVPKmyb/Globe-Valve-Holly-Throttle.jpg)
Having the bottom cover for the valve stem large end to go through means that the opening through the top can be smaller. That got me playing in Fusion again, and I came up with a valve that looks like this on the outside:
(https://i.postimg.cc/jq3JMx6G/Globe-Valve.jpg)
with a cutaway view like this:
(https://i.postimg.cc/qBN8V67k/Globe-Valve-Cutaway.jpg)
Rather that a full-depth center core soldered in, all it needs is a short washer shape soldered to the bottom to form the bottom flange, the rest of the valve body can be turned on the lathe. The top valve stem post just screws in. I designed it with a 5/8" diameter body, .300" diameter pipe internal bore, 2-56 valve stem thread, M4 threads on the top post, and 1-72 screws in the pipe flanges and bottom cover. The two side passages in the core could be cut in through the side openings. The threads on the valve stem could be cut, then the bottom tapered valve end screwed/loctited on. To assemble, run the stem up from the bottom, thread the top post down over it, screw on the packing nut with a little packing rope, then screw on the handwheel. It would give the same action as the original throttle valve withe the same outside look, but need no castings or through-soldering.

Looks to me like it should work and be make-able - have I missed anything? I'll give it a try soon and if it works will post the plan sheets for everyone. Will still take some careful boring of passages.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on October 16, 2021, 08:03:32 PM
Hi Chris, re the prototype 90 degree engine , it looks like some compressor engines I have seen. Frick made some this format for large ammonia refrigeration systems, but I have seen air compressors for mines and large railway shops in the same format.

For your globe valve, the attached sketch markup shows a few ideas - just food for thought. Don't work on these valves too hard - wouldn't want you to get valveosis.  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 16, 2021, 08:39:25 PM
Good stuff CNR!  The packing nut was shown all the way down, but the threads are long enough for the packing yarn - got some graphite twisted stuff for that. On ones in the past I used an o-ring, but that needs a lot more space. I was trying to keep the top post and stem shorter for looks - the way I (and Holly) have it designed, screwing the stem down towards the globe opens the valve, so there needs to be room above the nut for full open travel. Also was trying to match their valve's look, which has a thin valve stem and the housing of the post guide. And, to match thier look, I want to have the bottom cover there. Appreciate the comments though, may use them on valves for other engines!
 :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on October 16, 2021, 11:02:44 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: kvom on October 17, 2021, 07:55:31 AM
Back when CF was held in York I visited the York museum that has a lot of industrial exhibits.  One is a Corlis used as an ammonia pump that is way different than this.  It's horizontal.

The frame has an extension off to the back leading me to believe there was some mechanism mounted flat there.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: MJM460 on October 17, 2021, 12:19:21 PM
Hi Chris, the oil industry used machines in that configuration.  The vertical cylinders were large gas engines, (meaning they used natural gas fuel), with compressor cylinders horizontal, made by Ingersoll Rand and others.  The compressors were usually gases involved in the oil recovery business.  So this is another example of the format.  Usually installed in trains of two or more in parallel, so there was capacity to shutdown engines one at a time for maintenance without shutting down the whole process.  And they were impressively large.

On the grounds that there is rarely anything new, it would not surprise me if they were preceded by steam engine driven machines. 

Between my eyesight and the picture quality on my screen, I can’t identify the valve gear on that Buffalo engine, and I don’t know the analine dye process, but if they needed a large compressor, it would make sense.

MJM460

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 17, 2021, 12:56:32 PM
KVOM/MJM, thanks! I'll pass that information back to him. He thinks he has more pictures of that engine in the dye factory, and is looking for them. If he finds them I'll post them here. The engine may still be there, may be able to get there myself for a closer look.


 :cheers:
EDIT: Had a wrong name at top - sorry!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 17, 2021, 05:06:06 PM
Good progress on the valve assemblies. Got the openings in the sides of the valve tubes milled in, keeping track to make sure I made two mirrored sets - the side passages need to be on the opposite sides of the cylinder passages for each side of the block.
(https://i.postimg.cc/vH1mwvz3/IMG-0234.jpg)
Also cut the flats on the valve rods, these openings will connect/disconnect the two passages in the tube as the valves rotate. The front ends of the rods were turned down to size, found some o-rings to make the front seal between the tube and the rods too.
(https://i.postimg.cc/7YpZHTtD/IMG-0235.jpg)
Next steps will be to turn the front bonnets, which hold the rods in and support the narrow ends. They have to stick out from the valve block to meet the top ends of the eccentric arms. The bonnets also hold the fixed bits of the cutoff mechanism for the Corliss valves.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 18, 2021, 02:46:45 PM
More done on the HP cylinder valves, got the front bonnets turned
(https://i.postimg.cc/VNqMpZbb/IMG-0236.jpg)
and the openings in the sides milled in (the main reason for this is that the bonnets extend the valve rods out beyond the engine frame to meet the eccentric rods from the lay shaft)
(https://i.postimg.cc/4Ny6y1jr/IMG-0237.jpg)
then drilled the mounting holes
(https://i.postimg.cc/x1bLy1f5/IMG-0238.jpg)
and the matching holes in the valve tubes - all the screw holes were arranged to put the side openings in the correct spot
(https://i.postimg.cc/MG2VsJXS/IMG-0239.jpg)
The first valve assembly ready for final assembly onto the lower cylinder block
(https://i.postimg.cc/jd1z77bC/IMG-0240.jpg)
Also, my plans source in Buffalo sent me some old pictures of the engines, one of them was taken early on, and shows the original exhaust pipe configuration, from before the output condensor units were added. Originally the exhuast pipe went down to floor level, where there was a small pump that picked up any condensation and pumped it out of the building. All the parts for that pump and piping are in the original plans I have, but I could not figure out how all the parts went together - those pumps and pipes were removed when the condenser units were added. So, will be addressing that in the CAD model - I had put in the mounting point for the pump in the base plate in case I got more information later - looks like its here!


Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steam guy willy on October 18, 2021, 03:18:40 PM
Hi Chris ,  still following along but really busy doing other things at the moment...there are quite a few globe valves on the new mills engine that I will be making ....!!! so thanks for the drawings Mine have arrows pointing to the flow direction !!

Willy
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 18, 2021, 04:02:03 PM
Hi Chris ,  still following along but really busy doing other things at the moment...there are quite a few globe valves on the new mills engine that I will be making ....!!! so thanks for the drawings Mine have arrows pointing to the flow direction !!

Willy
Excellent!  I'll lbe posting the measured drawings soon, just made some tweaks to them, and want to make one before posting it in case there are more changes. Should be a fairly straightforward one to make, got it figured out so no silver soldering needed, just bolts together now.
Chris
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 18, 2021, 07:08:26 PM
A few weeks back I was talking about the future build of the Sabino steamship engine, and showed the progress on the CAD drawings. Apparently the shop elves got tired of waiting for that build so they could put the engine in thier fishing boat, stole my credit card (again), and ordered a 3D print of it so they could mock it up in the boat...
(https://i.postimg.cc/vT99WQwk/IMG-0241.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on October 18, 2021, 08:06:19 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: ddmckee54 on October 18, 2021, 08:45:39 PM
They stole your card AGAIN?  You sure you don't have some shop gnome infiltrators?

Elf beer runs and 3D prints could get EXPENSIVE, you need to keep that card locked up in a safe.  And get a human-sized retinal scanner installed on the safe, not an elf-sized scanner!  Just be sure there's no IT elves on the scanner installation team because they'd probably just leave a backdoor into the system for their elf buddies to use.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 18, 2021, 08:54:02 PM
They stole your card AGAIN?  You sure you don't have some shop gnome infiltrators?

Elf beer runs and 3D prints could get EXPENSIVE, you need to keep that card locked up in a safe.  And get a human-sized retinal scanner installed on the safe, not an elf-sized scanner!  Just be sure there's no IT elves on the scanner installation team because they'd probably just leave a backdoor into the system for their elf buddies to use.

Don
I do have the retinal scanner, but they found my magnifying glass and put it between them and the scanner...   :facepalm2:

and they drilled the back wall of the safe....   :facepalm:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on October 19, 2021, 04:02:55 AM
This is another one of these images that looks OK [or better] upside down  :cartwheel: ......not sure about a few short verticals?? ... Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 19, 2021, 12:30:55 PM
This is another one of these images that looks OK [or better] upside down  :cartwheel: ......not sure about a few short verticals?? ... Derek
Those inner bits have all been redone and simplified, both for making the parts easier and I had selected one too many sketch regions when doing the rotate operation in the CAD, causing that undercut. That was all fixed yesterday, so no worries.
While waiting for loctite to cure on the cylinder valves, I have started making the globe valves, should be posting the sequence and plans in the next day or so.
Thanks for being another set of eyes on things!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 19, 2021, 06:20:08 PM
Okay, as promised, here is the start of the globe valve. It is not that different from ones posted by others on the forum in the past, with the main difference being that it has a bottom cover plate that lets the valve stem come in from that side. The reason I am doing this is that it matches the one on the original Holly engine more closely. Also, the way things worked out, it requires no silver soldering, the pieces just screw together, so its a bit simpler to make.


I need one of these for this engine, but know that I'll need more for the next engines in the pipeline (valve, pipeline, ....  :Lol: ) so I am making up a set of four while I am at it - once a setup is made and cut depths/diameters are dialed in, it does not take much longer to make a set than one.

The plans in PDF form are attached to this post - if it turns out that there are changes later on I'll repost the plans.

I'll go through the process step by step for those that want to make this valve. So far I have the main body just about done, the rest of the parts should be ready later today or tomorrow.

To start, I turned some brass bar to 5/8" diameter (did not have that size, so turned down some 3/4" bar) and trimmed all of them to the same length. Having them the same length let me calculate the distances in from the end of the bar once, and could use the same setup as long as each bar was positioned the same on the vise or in the chuck. Then drilled a starter hole in each end, with the tip of the drill going the desired depth of the hole. The bars were made long enough to grip in the chuck from either end. This comes in really handy later when the center is turned to the globe shape.

(https://i.postimg.cc/j2vLyV0T/IMG-0242.jpg)
Then used a small boring bit to take the holes out to 0.300" diameter the depth of the hole.
(https://i.postimg.cc/J7Kn6WvV/IMG-0243.jpg)
With the bars all the way into the chuck, I offset from the end with the parting tool and cut the straight section between the globe and the flange. If you have a larger chuck, you could put in a chuck spider to position each the same. With them all at the same position, the same long-axis position for the lathe table hit the same spot on the part, making it quick to cut all the straight sections the same.
(https://i.postimg.cc/3RFRHMwG/IMG-0244.jpg)
Then went around the parts again to make a shallow cut for where the outside of the flange will be. This is where the bars will be parted off later.
(https://i.postimg.cc/4xYmHF8C/IMG-0245.jpg)
The parts so far. If you look close you can see a boo-boo on the lower one, I goofed on the first cut on the first bar. That one will have its flange turned a little smaller and have a smaller hole pattern later on, which saves the part. I used that bar for the first cut on the rest of the steps just in case of another goof.
(https://i.postimg.cc/kMyV0SVH/IMG-0246.jpg)
Switched to a pointy lathe tool, and turned in the ends of the globe sections. Done by hand, etch-a-sketch style. The globe shape is not critical. A short flat was left in the center to aid in holding in the chuck later.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sDN2z43T/IMG-0247.jpg)
Now over to the mill. Centered the part under the mill head, and drilled each with a #30 drill (.128") all the way through. This will be tapped on one side later to an M4 thread to hold the stem post.
(https://i.postimg.cc/jdgD5r4Q/IMG-0248.jpg)
With the part still in the vise, then used a 3/16" end mill to plunge cut .550" deep to form the valve seat.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Yqq4MSYC/IMG-0249.jpg)
Now the parts were turned over, and the same #30 drill bit was used to get them aligned with the hole vertically again. The 3/16" diameter hole is now on the bottom.

(https://i.postimg.cc/Z5X08FgW/IMG-0251.jpg)
Then used a letter F drill, 0.257", to drill a shallow shoulder into the top of the part. This will let the stem post sit down flush with the top curve. This hole was drilled just deep enough to meet the curve of the part. Could have set up on the lathe and used the boring bar to get a flat there, but this was quicker.
(https://i.postimg.cc/k58GfR3f/IMG-0252.jpg)
Now turned the part on end, and drilled a hole along one edge of the bore into the center hole. There is one hole on either end, one at the top of the bore, one at the bottom of the bore, this forms the passages for the steam/air.
(https://i.postimg.cc/26D6JjCm/IMG-0253.jpg)
Ah - realized I forgot to include the cutaway view, this will make what I am doing clearer:
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZRS8chgv/Globe-Valve-Cutaway.jpg)

Here is a view in from one end to show the hole:
(https://i.postimg.cc/zvDfzdLc/IMG-0255.jpg)
Next the parts were put in the vise horizontal again, with the bottom side facing up. The bottom was milled off to form the seat for the bottom cover pieces. This cut was taken down to just above the diameter of the straight ends by the flanges.
(https://i.postimg.cc/MKTGgFJc/IMG-0258.jpg)
The parts so far:
(https://i.postimg.cc/wvgq2Wkj/IMG-0259.jpg)
Good time to part off the excess bar on the ends:
(https://i.postimg.cc/mrx2zZzM/IMG-0260.jpg)
Leaving the parts looking like this:
(https://i.postimg.cc/vmW8WRfK/IMG-0261.jpg)
Right now I am in the middle of drilling/tapping the 1-72 holes in the flanges. Another set of holes will be drilling into the flats on the bottom, to match the bottom covers to be made later.
(https://i.postimg.cc/d16qx8Wm/IMG-0262.jpg)
More to come...

EDIT - updated plans, there was one missing dimension on the last page
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on October 19, 2021, 08:32:34 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steam guy willy on October 19, 2021, 08:57:30 PM
Hi Chris, thanks for the diagram etc looks like lots of use available to take up for wear ??  cool

Willy
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 19, 2021, 09:07:06 PM
Some more done on the globe valves, the bottom caps and bases turned on the lathe and clearance drilled for 1-72 screws.
(https://i.postimg.cc/2jQfSFrz/IMG-0263.jpg)
Rather than spend a bunch of time centering up the valve bodies in the 4-jaw to locate the base cap screw holes, I just ran in a 5-40 screw with nuts either side to hold the base piece to the body, then used that as a drill guide. Went around once with the clearance drill to spot the locations into the base, then again with the 1-72 tap drill and went in .400" on each.
(https://i.postimg.cc/3J95g8kV/IMG-0264.jpg)
Tapped each hole in the base and the flanges, here is valve number 1 so far.
(https://i.postimg.cc/VLzPrrkX/IMG-0265.jpg)
Good place to break for the day. Tomorrow should be able to knock out the valve stems and the stem posts, then be able to give them a test. Pretty straightforward so far, hope they work!   ::)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: ddmckee54 on October 19, 2021, 09:20:32 PM
and they drilled the back wall of the safe....   :facepalm:

There's no doubt about it Chris, you need to get a better safe.  And keep all the carbide drills locked in the new safe, along with your credit card.
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: ozzie46 on October 19, 2021, 11:34:12 PM
Everything is magnificent. I don't say much cause my drooling woukd short circuit my keyboard.  :pinkelephant: :pinkelephant: :pinkelephant:

Thanks for the globe valve drawings

Ron
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 19, 2021, 11:40:22 PM
Everything is magnificent. I don't say much cause my drooling woukd short circuit my keyboard.  :pinkelephant: :pinkelephant: :pinkelephant:

Thanks for the globe valve drawings

Ron
Thanks Ron!  Do what I do when reading threads like the Le Rhone engine, put a towel around your neck to catch the drool!   :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on October 20, 2021, 12:30:22 AM
Very interesting step-by-step on the ball valves Chris! Can't wait to catch the next episode :)

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Don1966 on October 20, 2021, 01:27:00 AM
Do they call you  Rocket man? Your life a rocket none stop and totally engaged…….amazing progress Dog……. :Love:



 :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 20, 2021, 04:19:44 PM
Thanks Don/Kim!

For todays episode, more on the globe valves. The bodies are all tapped, including M4 for the top stem post. Turned a length of round bar to the .257" for the top flange, and threaded the end M4. The inside edge was shaped down at an angle and that end also turned to size for threading M4. The pieces were also drilled through with a #50 drill for the 2-56 valve stem thread.

(https://i.postimg.cc/ZKp6YzPM/IMG-0266.jpg)
Sorry for the blurry picture on that one!
Then each post was parted off. Once I had all four that I needed, the end of the round bar was drilled/tapped M4 so I could turn the posts around and thread the other end. The outer .1" was counterdrilled with a clearance drill for 2-56 to let the smooth part of the stem stick farther down in, so the packing on the packing nut would ride against a smooth surface.
(https://i.postimg.cc/c1KQjnvZ/IMG-0268.jpg)
Here is the first one test assembled on the valve.
(https://i.postimg.cc/66DdNpZZ/IMG-0270.jpg)
still three more posts to thread the outer end on, then can start in on the packing nuts and the valve stems. First, off to lunch with some friends!
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on October 20, 2021, 05:28:45 PM
Looking great, Chris!   :popcorn:

So, just to be clear, you WON'T be silver soldering that ring to the body of the valve?  (Since you said no soldering?) Will there just be a gasket between the body and that ring?  And between the ring and the cap?

Kim

PS Sorry the writing looks like I wrote it with a potato... I actually used my mouse, I'm just not good at mouse writing apparently :)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 20, 2021, 06:20:28 PM
Looking great, Chris!   :popcorn:

So, just to be clear, you WON'T be silver soldering that ring to the body of the valve?  (Since you said no soldering?) Will there just be a gasket between the body and that ring?  And between the ring and the cap?

Kim

PS Sorry the writing looks like I wrote it with a potato... I actually used my mouse, I'm just not good at mouse writing apparently :)
Yup - could be soldered, but I figured I'd just put some of the gasket-maker goop in there to seal it up. That base ring could have been made as part of the outer cap with a scribed line to mimic the cap joint, but it was quicker to keep it two pieces. A few more parts to make and I can find out how well they work - I want to use it to test out the cylinder valves too, so will make a short adapter pipe. The top/bottom inlet pipes on the cylinder are connected with external pipes, with curved elbows. I found a 1/4" copper elbow at the plumbing store that I will adapt to make the pipe elbow, will add flanges either end soldered on and trim the ends shorter.
A fun side project from the bigger model!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 20, 2021, 07:35:00 PM
Hi all,
For any who already download the plans pdf for the globe valve, I found one bad dimension on the last page, for the height of the valve stem end. Updated the original post with the corrected version (0.8) and also attaching to this post. So far everything else is okay, down to making the valve stems and the handwheels....
Chris
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dan Rowe on October 20, 2021, 08:05:40 PM
Hi Chris, am I missing something or did you use a left hand thread on the valve stem? It seems to me that clockwise rotation will open the bottom seat valve. This would make me crazy clockwise should close a valve and it is wired into my hand and brain so no matter how the valve is mounted I know how to open or close it.

Cheers Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 20, 2021, 08:22:03 PM
Hi Chris, am I missing something or did you use a left hand thread on the valve stem? It seems to me that clockwise rotation will open the bottom seat valve. This would make me crazy clockwise should close a valve and it is wired into my hand and brain so no matter how the valve is mounted I know how to open or close it.

Cheers Dan
Nope - you are not missing something, and yes its a right hand thread on the valve stem, since I don't happen to have a left-hand 2-56 tap/die set in the box. On the blueprints for the full sized Holly valve, they show a right hand thread, 4-tpi square thread. So, I can claim accuracy to the original for that....  ::)   Thats my story and I'm sticking to it. Till I forget it anyway!   :Lol:

A good note for those that might make this valve for thier own use, if you have a left hand tap/die set for the stem, use it if you like!


I'm hoping it will keep the shop elves from using the engine too much if they can't figure out that the valve works opposite!  Ooops, just remembered, they read this forum....  :facepalm:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 20, 2021, 08:30:12 PM
After lunch, got the packing nuts made. I found a piece of hex bar on the shelf the right size, think it might be bronze based on the color, probably from an old casting set?  Anyway, drilled each nut through 2-56/clearance, and drilled/tapped in most of the way with a M4 bottom tap.
(https://i.postimg.cc/VL11H2g8/IMG-0271.jpg)
Then set up with some offcuts of bronze bar to make the valve ends, good way to use up the rest of the bar ends. Tapped through 2-56 for the end of the stem, tapered the end with the compound rest and parted off. To keep the parted off bit from disappearing in the swarf, I threaded on a screw first.
(https://i.postimg.cc/2S9DyyDk/IMG-0273.jpg)
The parts collection so far:
(https://i.postimg.cc/cLLWdYPk/IMG-0275.jpg)
Before continuing, I assembled one, and gave it the old 'blow in one end' test. Passed the test - no air through till I opened the valve, and it seems to give a good fine control of the flow till full open,   :cartwheel: , so I'll keep going! Last parts to make will be the handwheels. Thinking that the valve stem could just be left as a section of a long machine screw, there is very little of it visible, and the long internal thread seals well so not sure if the packing is really needed - will find out when its under real pressure.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on October 20, 2021, 09:24:48 PM
Very nice little ball valves, Chris!  And thanks for the drawings.  Going to file that away for someday when I need it.

One more question (for now :)).  Why'd you select M4 for the valve post?  Just curious. 

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Craig DeShong on October 20, 2021, 09:44:45 PM
Your globe valves look, and apparently work, delightful !!   :cartwheel:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 20, 2021, 11:07:50 PM
Very nice little ball valves, Chris!  And thanks for the drawings.  Going to file that away for someday when I need it.

One more question (for now :) ).  Why'd you select M4 for the valve post?  Just curious. 

Kim
I have a set of inch and metric taps/dies, I like the metric ones for things like gland nuts since they are a nice combination of a fairly fine thread with strength. For things under M3 I usually use the inch ones, since I have lots of matching fasteners. Other than that, not a lot of reason - I started using the metric ones on pipe and valve fittings when doing Kozo's New Shay model since thats what he called out, and the local hardware store happened to have M3 and up metric taps/dies.
Chris
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 20, 2021, 11:08:06 PM
Your globe valves look, and apparently work, delightful !!   :cartwheel:
Thanks Craig!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 20, 2021, 11:15:28 PM
Okay, finishing up the globe valves, with the handwheels. Drilled the hole pattern from the end with the rotary table, then turned in the spoke recess on the end, drilled/tapped the center, and parted off:
(https://i.postimg.cc/YSsGkt9Z/IMG-0276.jpg)
making this, still flat on the back:
(https://i.postimg.cc/nrvCv7kf/IMG-0277.jpg)
then re-chucked it with the parted side out to recess that side as well. I've got a set of lathe chuck spiders that I 3D printed a while back, very handy for this, gets it held flat in the vise. Three thicknesses so I can mix/match depending on the part to be held.
(https://i.postimg.cc/pV8hbbtc/IMG-0278.jpg)
Closeup of the assembled set - on two of them I had to file back the taper on the valve stem to get them to seal well, the narrow end was just catching on the lip of the valve seat.
(https://i.postimg.cc/J0wsDKjQ/IMG-0280.jpg)
And a group shot of all of them. They all pass the blow-in-the-end test, tomorrow I'll make up an adapter to some plastic tubing so I can test them with the compressor with higher pressure. Quite happy with how they have turned out!
(https://i.postimg.cc/tTn148nT/IMG-0279.jpg)
One of them will be the main throttle valve on the input line to the HP cylinder, the rest will be kept (locked away from shop gnomes) for future models. I don't think making the set added very much time to making the one needed right away, definitely faster than the totoal time to make four individually!
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: 90LX_Notch on October 20, 2021, 11:47:53 PM
Very nice looking valves Chris.

-Bob
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on October 21, 2021, 05:29:38 AM
Very nice little ball valves, Chris!  And thanks for the drawings.  Going to file that away for someday when I need it.

One more question (for now :) ).  Why'd you select M4 for the valve post?  Just curious. 

Kim
I have a set of inch and metric taps/dies, I like the metric ones for things like gland nuts since they are a nice combination of a fairly fine thread with strength. For things under M3 I usually use the inch ones, since I have lots of matching fasteners. Other than that, not a lot of reason - I started using the metric ones on pipe and valve fittings when doing Kozo's New Shay model since thats what he called out, and the local hardware store happened to have M3 and up metric taps/dies.
Chris

Makes perfect sense!  :D

Wonderful family of ball valves there, Chris! You outdid yourself yet again!  :ThumbsUp:

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 21, 2021, 06:11:10 PM
This morning I got an adapter for tubing from the compressor to the ball valves made, and all looks good - some minor leaks around the bottom cap (which did not have any gasket yet), and actually more on the quick disconnect fitting at the compressor hose!

So, I went ahead and smeared on a little of the permatex red gasket maker RTV on the bottom caps, those are setting for the hour before tightening in the screws the rest of the way. Later today I'll make a quick video showing the valves in action. Also, the loctite on the HP cylinder valves and pipe flanges is all set up now, so I should be able to test those with some compressed air too - hoping those are in as good a shape so I can move on to the next parts.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 21, 2021, 08:45:20 PM
As promised, some quick videos of the valves under compressed air. First one of the globe valves:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKcgl9bkeU8
Opens and closes quite well, no leakage from the valve.
I first had the shop elves holding the valve and turning the wheel, but the force blew them over - you can see one of them laying on the table in the back left of the video, I could just hear him moaning 'need cookie....'   :Lol:

Then the corliss valve on the HP cylinder base. I dont have the bell cranks made yet, so I put a pin vise on the end of the valve rod so I could turn it, and a short connector pipe from the globe valve to the cylinder base.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMHTjLoEal4
The valve works quite well, there is just a hint of air blowing past it when the valve is closed, just can hear a tiny hiss from it. Also a tiny leak past the threads of the valve stem on the globe valve when the Corliss valve is closed and the globe valve is open. There is no packing at the top gland on the globe valve yet, this shows that some is needed so I'll add that.

Overall, quite happy with the valves!  So, will put the elves on a stretcher and take them into the kitchen for some cookies - made up a batch last night so they are nice and fresh.
 :whoohoo:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: gary.a.ayres on October 21, 2021, 09:39:48 PM
Wow... very nice work!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 21, 2021, 10:27:41 PM
Wow... very nice work!
:cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on October 21, 2021, 10:57:24 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Looking great Chris, great job on the globe and the Corliss valves!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 21, 2021, 11:17:08 PM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Looking great Chris, great job on the globe and the Corliss valves!
Thanks!  These Corliss valves came out a lot better than the first couple attempts on my MEM Corliss years ago, learned a lot from those. They leaked something fierce!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Don1966 on October 22, 2021, 02:13:43 AM
Awesome………..  :Love:



 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 22, 2021, 05:31:37 PM
So, with the valves sorted out, back to working on the HP cylinder cap/valve assemblies. The bottom one is set, waiting on the last steps to drill the piston rod hole and drill/tap the cylinder mounting holes - want to do that all in one go with the cylinder and top cap so all the hole spacings are done in the same setup. That means it is time to do the top cap, which has the other pair of valve tubes in it.
To start, I turned some round bar to diameter, and drilled/reamed the valve tube holes. Started by milling flats for each hole to keep the drills from wanting to skate off the sides, and stepped up from 1/4" to one shy of the 7/16" reamer.

(https://i.postimg.cc/cJqw67Mc/IMG-0288.jpg)
Then, before removing it from the vise, I drew a line along the edge where it met the top of the vise. That made a handy way to turn it 90 degrees, used a square end on a parallel to line it up and clamp it in. Then drilled in for the steam inlet/exhaust pipes, one each side, in to meet the valve tube bores.
(https://i.postimg.cc/x1NL0pHC/IMG-0289.jpg)
Back over to the rotary table on the mill, and recessed the bottom face down to expose the valve tubes...
(https://i.postimg.cc/q78nKt1H/IMG-0290.jpg)
and back once again to the lathe to trim the blank to thickness and dome over the top face. That was done first with a turning tool, then finished with a large flat file to smooth it.

(https://i.postimg.cc/yxNS2Ls7/IMG-0292.jpg)
Back again to the rotary table, and set up to mill in the grid work on the top. The grid lightened the cap and used less metal, while keeping the strength against the inside pressures.
(https://i.postimg.cc/pTRjJ2Sh/IMG-0293.jpg)
Several passes with the mill to get the gird down to depth...
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZRHdfGkf/IMG-0294.jpg)
That finished the shaping, so I went ahead and loctited in the valve tubes and pipe flanges. Did that with the valves themselves out, just in case any loctite dripped in the slots!
(https://i.postimg.cc/mZd97Wyk/IMG-0296.jpg)
When I went to get the camera, the shop elves got busy with the lower/upper caps and the blank for the cylinder. I heard some talking about building a robot...
(https://i.postimg.cc/D0Ybh1wL/IMG-0297.jpg)
Perfect place to break for lunch!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Admiral_dk on October 22, 2021, 08:30:16 PM
Quote
I heard some talking about building a robot...

I seem to remember that you had mentioned Darleks .... so beware of the end result .... just saying ....

Still along for the ride - but ready to jump ship if the Darleks actually show up here .... but what a shame that would be, with all those nice shiny bits ....
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 22, 2021, 08:35:35 PM
Quote
I heard some talking about building a robot...

I seem to remember that you had mentioned Darleks .... so beware of the end result .... just saying ....

Still along for the ride - but ready to jump ship if the Darleks actually show up here .... but what a shame that would be, with all those nice shiny bits ....
If the shop elves built Daleks with a 3D printer, would they would say things like Extrude, Extrude!!!?   :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on October 23, 2021, 12:56:54 AM
Just load up your printer with TPV or TPE soft rubber-like filament - that way any Daleks the shop elves might make will only have Nerf-like guns, and won't shoot straight anyway.  :Lol:

Just kidding, great progress on cylinder and heads!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 23, 2021, 12:59:28 AM
Just load up your printer with TPV or TPE soft rubber-like filament - that way any Daleks the shop elves might make will only have Nerf-like guns, and won't shoot straight anyway.  :Lol:

Just kidding, great progress on cylinder and heads!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
:lolb:
Extermibounce!!
 :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Art K on October 23, 2021, 03:16:21 AM
Not to worry unless you hear "exterminate" then be very afraid.
Art
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RReid on October 23, 2021, 02:30:34 PM
Awesome progress since I was last able to check in, Chris (what a surprise...)! I really like those globe valves. :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 23, 2021, 04:46:38 PM
Seven months into the build, and finally turning the first cylinder!   :cartwheel:

Started with a piece of round bar long enough for the cylinder plus a little extra for screws at the top end to hold the bar to the lathe faceplate. Gripped in the 3-jaw with jaws reversed, turned the ends true. Not my favorite way to hold a bar this big, so took light cuts. Then drilled through to have a starter hole for boring out the cylinder. Also counterbored the last 1/8" wider than the cylinder bore, so the boring bar could come all the way through the bar without risk of hitting the faceplate.
(https://i.postimg.cc/W4nD08Wm/IMG-0298.jpg)
Moved over to the rotary table and drilled/tapped a set of holes around the perimeter for 4-40 screws.
(https://i.postimg.cc/cLftL0fb/IMG-0299.jpg)
and while that spacing was set up also drilled close clearance holes in the faceplate
(https://i.postimg.cc/59GX563r/IMG-0300.jpg)
Ran in and tightened the screws. Also stamp marked the position of the bar on the faceplate so it can go back on in the same spot, just in case there is any variation in the holes or angle on the bar.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ydpkbdzk/IMG-0301.jpg)
Started with a small boring bar to get the hole opened up
(https://i.postimg.cc/k596VzcX/IMG-0302.jpg)
then switched to a larger one once it would fit - the narrow one has a little flex when extended out that far.  The hole was bored all the way through the bar, and stopped short of the final bore diameter. I'll come back and finish out the bore after silver soldering on the mounts for the Corliss valve pivots, also will take a final truing pass on the end at that point, to ensure that the bore and the bottom end are square to each other.

(https://i.postimg.cc/MHhXzFHw/IMG-0303.jpg)
Then took the outside down to the diameter of the end flanges. Stopped short of the faceplate to leave more material around the screws holding it to the faceplate. The turned length is the finished length of the cylinder once that far end is trimmed off later.
(https://i.postimg.cc/NFy5qcgb/IMG-0304.jpg)
Took an offcut out of the scrap bin, turned the end to be a slide fit into the cylinder bore. This will be used to hold the live center, which is smaller than the bore.
(https://i.postimg.cc/wvj12NZC/IMG-0305.jpg)
Then used the parting tool to step in to the depth of the rings around the cylinder at either end. This gave a place to start the turning tool and a stop cut at the other end.

(https://i.postimg.cc/NfH5dBCj/IMG-0307.jpg)
Then turned down the area between those cuts - now the center is at the diameter of the outside of the rings.
(https://i.postimg.cc/6pxTSgFL/IMG-0308.jpg)
And back to the parting tool to mark out and remove the areas between the rings. The parting tool works for taking off thin sideways cuts too, as long as they are very shallow cuts.
(https://i.postimg.cc/BvM6j6bM/IMG-0309.jpg)
Presto, one cylinder blank turned to size on the outside, bore left undersize for now, and one end with a holding flange.
(https://i.postimg.cc/3wKNrp8k/IMG-0310.jpg)
Here it is off the faceplate, and set in place with the end caps.
(https://i.postimg.cc/26y5hDBm/IMG-0312.jpg)
Next step will be to work out and make the holding fixtures for milling and silver soldering the valve pivot bases. They will stick out of the sides of the cylinder like this:
(https://i.postimg.cc/s2rtCjD2/Image19.jpg)

As discussed previously, drilling into the cylinder to make holes to hold those blocks would not work well, since the holes would break through into the cylinder, so they will have the inner faces milled to fit the outside of the cylinder, and a jig will hold them for silver soldering. After that, the inside of the cylinder bore will be taken out to the final diameter, and then the hole patterns in the mounting flanges can be drilled and the excess material at the top end removed. So far, so good!  The other two cylinders will be basically the same procedures, just larger diameters.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on October 23, 2021, 05:14:29 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Doin' the fixture jig here, as it were!  :cartwheel:    :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on October 23, 2021, 06:16:37 PM
Fine looking cylinder, Chris!  And a great step-by-step on the process to get there.

Looking forward to seeing the jig!

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on October 23, 2021, 11:33:58 PM
Beautiful first cylinder [assembly] Chris  :ThumbsUp: .........but what a huge heatsink  :headscratch:

Did the original Holly Engines have steam heating coils around the cylinder external diameter underneath all of the eventual cladding?

Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 24, 2021, 01:08:00 AM
Beautiful first cylinder [assembly] Chris  :ThumbsUp: .........but what a huge heatsink  :headscratch:

Did the original Holly Engines have steam heating coils around the cylinder external diameter underneath all of the eventual cladding?

Derek
The cylinder walls will get thinner when the bore is taken out to final size, that looks really thick now with the undersize bore and the flanges, when done the walls are pretty thin.

The Holly engine as originally built did not have any preheaters on the cylinders or reheaters in the receivers between the cylinders. I don't know if either or both were added later on. The engines in the Cincinatti pump station, a different brand but similar size, and also the Allis engine in Boston, do have reheater coils in the receivers. Its possible they were added to the Holly later on - at some point the original exhaust piping and air pump were replaced with a condenser unit, so they may have added the coils then too. The cladding and insulation around the cylinders on the Holly are really thick, and it hides a lot. Maybe I can sneak a shop elf in there with a can opener...
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 24, 2021, 02:56:18 PM
This morning got the blanks for the Corliss valve crank bases made up. Turned some round bar to size, drilled/tapped the center for 5-40, with a recess at the outer end for the crank pivot to set into, and drilled/tapped for 0-80 mounting screws for the caps to be added later.
(https://i.postimg.cc/5tRpvD4v/IMG-0314.jpg)
There are two short ones, one long one for over at the side. The short ones go just off center, the long one goes tangent to the side of the cylinder. To hold them for milling the arc to match the cylinder, a piece of steel bar was drilled for the 5-40 center screws and offset for one of the 0-80 cap screws to keep it all aligned here and later on the soldering jig.  You guys were right, trying to make a single jig for both milling and soldering was the wrong way to go, the milling jig needs to be a lot thicker, and no need for full height on it.
(https://i.postimg.cc/1ztJ8yQs/IMG-0313.jpg)
With the centerline and offsets for the jig face marked on the rotary table, marked from the center pivot hole, the jig was clamped down to the table and the table offset from center a little short of the final cut line. First took some passes to trim off the bulk of the material:
(https://i.postimg.cc/VvjFx6jB/IMG-0315.jpg)
then moved in for the final passes
(https://i.postimg.cc/kM8w6jk6/IMG-0316.jpg)
Once the first two pieces were cut, the short one was swapped out for the second short blank and it was milled in like the first one. Then, the jig was removed to test against the cylinder:
(https://i.postimg.cc/L5dTQfZ8/IMG-0317.jpg)
Alll good, so the parts are off the jig. The jig will be used as a drill guide for the soldering jig to be made next:
(https://i.postimg.cc/fLSCv5yP/IMG-0318.jpg)
So far making these bases has worked out very easy. Thanks to those who chimed in with suggestions!!   :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 24, 2021, 05:18:31 PM
And next, you guessed it, the soldering jig. Found a piece of scrap sheet steel, cut it down and drilled holes for the mounting screws. The screw into the top of the cylinder is in a spot that will be bored away when the bore is take out to full diameter.
(https://i.postimg.cc/CL2QbZcd/IMG-0320.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/NfFny87W/IMG-0322.jpg)
Should work - so, time to set up the torch and see!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 24, 2021, 05:53:40 PM
Looks like it all stayed in place, need to let it cool, then let it go for a swim in the pickle solution for a while to be sure. The solder flowed well across the joints, so it should be good.

(https://i.postimg.cc/sgRpFsXw/IMG-0323.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steamer on October 24, 2021, 07:31:45 PM
You've been cutting some brass!!!   Looking awesome Chris!   I continue to be amazed at what you're doing with a Sherline setup.

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 24, 2021, 07:53:31 PM
You've been cutting some brass!!!   Looking awesome Chris!   I continue to be amazed at what you're doing with a Sherline setup.

Dave
Thanks Dave!  Just needs to take a lot more smaller bites!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 24, 2021, 08:10:49 PM
One badly singed Dalek - that'll teach him to try and steal cookies from the shop elves!!   :lolb:

Actually, the HP cylinder after cooling off from the silver soldering, ready for a wire brushing and a swim in the pickle solution jug....
(https://i.postimg.cc/6Q72ypMr/IMG-0325.jpg)
And for the sharp-eyed out there comparing this picture to the CAD render, yes, its standing upside down in the picture, the bosses go in the middle and one at the top when complete!  The flange at the bottom with six holes in it is the holding flange for the faceplate, and will be trimmed off after the cylinder bore is taken out to final size.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 24, 2021, 10:23:10 PM
And after a good soak in the pickle, and some wire brushing and wipe with a scouring pad...  The solder looks to have penetrated all the way through, all the joints have solder right on around. A couple little dribbles of solder needed to be filed off on one side.

(https://i.postimg.cc/Rh9VvS3L/IMG-0327.jpg)
I think its ready for final machining!  First, bore out the center to final size, light face pass on the end, and cut in the step where it fits into the cylinder base cap and drill the bolt pattern around the rim. Then can trim off the other end to take off the faceplate flange and drill that end, and matching tap holes in the top/bottom caps.

(https://i.postimg.cc/ZKbKgqzT/IMG-0328.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZKwKhhJ6/IMG-0326.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on October 24, 2021, 11:02:51 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 24, 2021, 11:15:18 PM
Oh, and I don't think I mentioned, I am not putting the insulation and cladding sheets on this engine! At least not all the way around, it makes it look like a bland factory building or blank billboard. Hiding all three cylinders and the receivers? Nope.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Don1966 on October 25, 2021, 12:03:17 AM
We’ll plan and executed could not of done better. Your slicker than a wet bar of soap Dog…. And I like penetration …. :Love:



 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: 90LX_Notch on October 25, 2021, 03:19:35 AM
Looking good Chris.

-Bob
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on October 25, 2021, 06:33:48 AM
Well done with the milling and soldering jigs, Chris!   :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Love watching you work!
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: kvom on October 25, 2021, 07:35:06 AM
At least with those solder joints you won't need a leak test.   :naughty:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RReid on October 25, 2021, 01:48:32 PM
Quote
Oh, and I don't think I mentioned, I am not putting the insulation and cladding sheets on this engine! At least not all the way around, it makes it look like a bland factory building or blank billboard. Hiding all three cylinders and the receivers? Nope.
Good call, Chris. Too much pretty work there to hide if you don't gotta. :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 25, 2021, 05:23:14 PM
Thanks guys!   :cheers: :cheers:

This morning got the cylinder bolted back on the faceplate and the bore taken out to finel dimension, as well as forming the locating flange on the bottom surface. The soldered on pieces were not heavy enough to throw it off balance, so could use normal speeds.

(https://i.postimg.cc/FKqtpJY1/IMG-0329.jpg)
Then moved over to the rotary table on the mill, and drilled the 1-72 clearance holes in the bottom flange
(https://i.postimg.cc/cH8pb43h/IMG-0331.jpg)
and on the same setup put the bottom cap assembly on and drilled/tapped the matching holes to hold the cylinder. In both, started the first hole at the front face so that they will line up with the valve faces square to each other.
(https://i.postimg.cc/3N5s55CT/IMG-0330.jpg)
Next will get the top flange trimmed down and start on the screw holes at that end.

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on October 25, 2021, 05:42:06 PM
That's a LOT of 1-72 screws!  I counted 24 around there - are there more on the larger cylinders?  :o

Looks beautiful, Chris!
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 25, 2021, 05:45:09 PM
That's a LOT of 1-72 screws!  I counted 24 around there - are there more on the larger cylinders?  :o

Looks beautiful, Chris!
Kim
Yup...   :shrug:    Fingers are tired, going to take a break before starting the set on the top end!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Craig DeShong on October 25, 2021, 08:57:19 PM
Oh, and I don't think I mentioned, I am not putting the insulation and cladding sheets on this engine! At least not all the way around, it makes it look like a bland factory building or blank billboard. Hiding all three cylinders and the receivers? Nope.

Oh yes, do all that pretty work :Love: and then cover it up.  :hammerbash:  One would have to be insane !
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 26, 2021, 03:56:34 PM
Last time got the lower cylinder cap drilled/tapped, then it was on to the upper end. The cylinder needed to have the holding flange trimmed off, that was done on the lathe. I added some more holes to the faceplace matching the ones in the bottom flange, so the cylinder could be screwed on. Since those are small screws (1-72), to be safe I used another block in the outer end so the tailstock could help support it for turning.

(https://i.postimg.cc/zvnnDB30/IMG-0332.jpg)
The flange was trimmed down very close to the central bore with the support block in place, then the final thin ring was taken off without it.
(https://i.postimg.cc/mgd7gK2f/IMG-0333.jpg)
As with the bottom end, a small locating flange was left on the end (which the originals had as well).  Then the cylinder top flange was drilled for the mounting screws
(https://i.postimg.cc/529w1fJS/IMG-0335.jpg)
as well as the top cap with a matching set
(https://i.postimg.cc/GhCF7kSN/IMG-0334.jpg)
Here are the pieces so far
(https://i.postimg.cc/jjmNzN7M/IMG-0337.jpg)
and set up on top of the engine frames:
(https://i.postimg.cc/sXWWKXPs/IMG-0338.jpg)
Family picture:
(https://i.postimg.cc/KYRBkQRK/IMG-0339.jpg)
Next up will be the piston. First needed to make the packing gland for the bottom of the lower cap. Turned a piece of round bar, counterbored for a viton o-ring, and drilled for the screws. The o-ring recess is slightly shallower than the ring, so it can compress the ring as needed.
(https://i.postimg.cc/kGdbHmw8/IMG-0341.jpg)
gland bolted on:
(https://i.postimg.cc/fyj9nrgP/IMG-0342.jpg)
The parts were set up on top of the frame, and the crankshaft rotated so I could mark the positions where the piston rod meet the lower and upper caps at full stroke - this gives the min/max location for the piston head on the rod. Next time I'll get started on the piston head....
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on October 26, 2021, 04:03:20 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Top notch Chris! :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 26, 2021, 04:05:48 PM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Top notch Chris! :cheers:
No notch in the top, just holes!    :ROFL:

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on October 26, 2021, 05:23:11 PM
 :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 27, 2021, 04:03:38 PM
Coming down to the wire on the HP cylinder (still LOTS to do before I can apply pressure and test the engine rotation - valves, control rods, crank arms, eccentric followers, more cookies... ). This morning made up the piston head and got it attached to the piston rod made earlier with the crossheads.
Usually I use Viton o-rings on the pistons, this time I am giving some graphite packing rope a try, have not used it in a long time but given the size of these pistons its worth a go - largest is 3" diameter. The viton works great, but it is very touchy on the groove depth. So, I turned the groove to fit the rope, and cut the ends at an angle to overlap the joint.
(https://i.postimg.cc/jqnrHqvg/IMG-0345.jpg)
Gave it a try in the cylinder - nice smooth motion, and covering the end of the cylinder with my palm, could feel good compression. Will know for sure when the rest of the fittings are made and can try it under compressed air.
(https://i.postimg.cc/prjbRkpb/IMG-0344.jpg)
Next steps: mounting holes on the lower cap to the engine frames, gaskets, paint, then on to all the valve motion bits and pieces.

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Craig DeShong on October 27, 2021, 04:20:16 PM
 :ThumbsUp:

 :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on October 27, 2021, 05:56:01 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on October 27, 2021, 07:13:47 PM
More great progress, Chris!

Is that a pentagonal nut on the end of the piston?  Looks like it may have started as hex but got filed or milled to 5 sides? doesn't look like it would be easy to grab onto with a wrench of any kind...

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 27, 2021, 08:02:12 PM
More great progress, Chris!

Is that a pentagonal nut on the end of the piston?  Looks like it may have started as hex but got filed or milled to 5 sides? doesn't look like it would be easy to grab onto with a wrench of any kind...

Kim
Yeah, I noticed that after I took the picture - it was a spare nut in the box, didn't notice the divot in it. Its a hex nut, but looks like it go snagged with the saw on one side when cutting of the bar, or maybe that was the tail end of the bar - explains why it was kept as a spare maybe. It only goes in partway on that face, the rest of it is fine. No problem gripping it with a socket.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 27, 2021, 08:13:47 PM
Before lunch I put on a coat of paint on the HP cylinder parts and left them to dry. After a nice long lunch out with friends, decided to make up the gaskets for the cylinder ends. I had picked up some thin (.030) viton sheet a while back, so am giving that a try. To cut the gaskets out, I sandwiched two layers between a piece of wood screwed to the faceplate and a thin scrap of plywood. With the mill table offset to the circle distance, I went around with a spot drill then a clearance drill size.
(https://i.postimg.cc/7ZzLLMJV/IMG-0346.jpg)
Easy to tell the right depth of drilling, partway in the black rubber comes up the drill, then back to the light wood color again. Second pass was with a small end mill to cut out the center. Here it is after picking out the wood disc and running the vacuum on it to remove all the wood/rubber dust:

(https://i.postimg.cc/63W6zkjj/IMG-0347.jpg)
and with the top wood piece removed:
(https://i.postimg.cc/PqzrWX4v/IMG-0348.jpg)
Doing the outside circle might have worked with the mill, but with the center gone the wood was not holding it down as well, so I traced around the perimeter  with a pen with the cylinder held in place, then trimmed with scissors.
The holes look to line up well, so the gaskets should be good to go.
(https://i.postimg.cc/BvGnPLxG/IMG-0349.jpg)
Good breaking point for the day, tomorrow will probably get the parts bolted up on the engine. The base cap is already there, and the piston rod moves well through the gland. When the cylinder gets added, I'll check the movement again. The piston rod alignment to vertical can be adjusted by adjusting the nuts on the four pump rods, which keep the crosshead and piston rod squared up - the way the crosshead is made, the center yoke can pivot on the bearing blocks on either side. Measuring it with a square shows it should be good as is, but if need be those nuts can be adjusted.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 28, 2021, 03:49:50 PM

This morning got the cylinder base attached to the engine frame, and the cylinder temporarily bolted to the base. Then, just HAD to try it with some pressure!  :)   With no valve cranks or links, its a matter of manually opening/closing valves. So, here is a super-short video of the first self-powered movement of the engine. Look quick, it doesn't last long:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrTEOq_PKJk
It worked, but a lot of air leakage past the piston. I pulled the piston out and checked the graphite rope that I used, and pretty quick saw the problem - the strands of the rope have gaps where they twist:
(https://i.postimg.cc/SsFLvHgC/IMG-0351.jpg)
So, at that point I figured I need to either lay up the graphite differently, maybe un-twist the strands and wrap them around the groove like winding string on a fishing reel? How do others do it? Or do I need a finer strand rope?
I didn't think it would fit correctly, but I put a 1" o-ring on. The groove is too wide, but the depth is good, so it does seal. The piston now moves faster and without the blow-by around it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_o9k0ZEkdQ
So, at least the mechanics of the parts are all working! :whoohoo:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on October 28, 2021, 04:02:19 PM
That's pretty exciting, Chris!  :cartwheel:  First movement under air!

I'd love to hear what people have to say about the graphite yarn.  I'm trying to use that on my build and I worry I'll have the same problem as you're experiencing.

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RReid on October 28, 2021, 06:35:21 PM
I've used Glide brand dental floss in lieu of graphite yarn in steam valve glands with good success. It is an expanded PTFE material. Never tried it on a piston, but might be worth an experiment? If it doesn't work, just put the rest in the bathroom!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on October 28, 2021, 06:37:06 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on October 28, 2021, 09:01:27 PM
I have not shopped for any in a few years, but you used to be able to get graphited packing yarn in two styles - braided, for small dia stems, or twisted, for large packing glands or valve stems. Both styles need to be well greased and densely packed in place to avoid the air gaps at the seal face.
Twisted, reverse twisted, and densely packed PTFE plumbing tape also works quite well. Just food for thought.  :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 28, 2021, 10:20:41 PM
Hi CNR - I saw the braided, thought  THAT was for the larger diameters. Most of the braided ones I saw, at least at first glance, where bigger. Will look again! I didn't know they should be greased as well, that would definitely help, packing them in is key too probably. Thanks!


Since the o-ring was working well, but the groove was too side for it, I did some more experiments. Took the twisted stuff and took out one of the larger strands (still made up of smaller ones) and wound that around several times. It worked better than the original full twisted stuff, but still tough to pack it into the groove and it leaked more than I'd like.

So, what I wound up doing was taking some of the un-twisted length from the first experiment, and used it next to the o-ring to fill in the extra width. That worked great, keeping the ring in place, and seals well. That saved re-making the piston head.

Along the way, noticed that the flywheels were harder to turn, and at first thought it was the piston or piston rod rubbing. Turned out to be the holder for the lay shaft drive shaft, with the two small bevel gears. The holder was not QUITE lined up right when the screws were tightened up, making it bind. Got that sorted, turning much easier again.


Next parts - guess its time to start on the valve linkages - cranks, eccentric followers, and all the short rods that transmit the Corliss motion around between the valves. I want to actually see if I can get the engine to run before moving on to the other cylinders. The motion may not be that smooth around the TDC/BDC points since it is made for running very slow and at this point its just a single piston with the drag from the pumps, but even if it needs a nudge on the flywheel top and bottom of stroke, that will be well worth it after all this time on the build!

Um, wait, before all the linkages, I need to make up a couple more pipe sections to feed air to both top and bottom cylinder caps! Those will be easy, I have some 1/4" OD copper tees and elbows from the plumbing supply place, they just need flanges made and soldered on. Okay - that will be a good project for tomorrow!
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on October 28, 2021, 10:36:58 PM
 :cheers: Chris
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RJH on October 29, 2021, 12:41:26 AM
On hydraulic pistons  and valves they use a teflon backup ring or washer to fill the space next to the o-ring. Maybe that would work.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 29, 2021, 12:48:47 AM
On hydraulic pistons  and valves they use a teflon backup ring or washer to fill the space next to the o-ring. Maybe that would work.
Neat trick  thanks!  I think I have it eet for this piston, still looking at ideas for the other two larger cylinders.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: kvom on October 29, 2021, 01:19:18 AM
While you were playing, I saw one of your elves moonlighting with my local dentist.

(https://pbase.com/kvom/image/172082477/large.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 29, 2021, 02:33:32 AM
While you were playing, I saw one of your elves moonlighting with my local dentist.


Just be sure it isn't a shop gnome out to steal some nice shiny fillings!!!   :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on October 29, 2021, 02:48:21 AM
So

1....pure [virgin] Teflon [PTFE] has no memory
2....and all dynamic piston seals are pressure energised

This example "Chesterton Brand" is listed as [packs valves and forms gaskets] is a 2.4 mm diameter woven cord of PTFE tape, however by construction has interwoven microscopic internal air spaces

It can be compressed  :hammerbash: into a squarish profile, chamfered with a Z cut [cut length = 4 times the height] , installed into the piston then into the cylinder and pressure energised to form a complete seal without bypass

[So a piston seal element cavity for this material could be 2 mm deep x 2 mm high = 4 mm sq, the 2.4 mm diameter deformable cord = 4.52 mm sq]

After the compressed state [typically to the relief valve setting of the system], with de-pressurization, the seal element will relax dimensionally and provided an extremely low friction movement in the bore

Upon subsequent pressurization, the seal will expand and provide a leak-free operation

The Graphite impregnated string you show appears to be coarsely woven construction, however a finer woven Graphited cotton twine would have performed the same duty as I suggest the PTFE cord had

The critical points here is the actual [fineness] of construction of the Graphited twine, together with the length & surity of a similar dimensioned Z cut


Derek 
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 29, 2021, 03:03:03 AM
So

1....pure [virgin] Teflon [PTFE] has no memory
2....and all dynamic piston seals are pressure energised

This example "Chesterton Brand" is listed as [packs valves and forms gaskets] is a 2.4 mm diameter woven cord of PTFE tape, however by construction has interwoven microscopic internal air spaces

It can be compressed  :hammerbash: into a squarish profile, chamfered with a Z cut [cut length = 4 times the height] , installed into the piston then into the cylinder and pressure energised to form a complete seal without bypass

[So a piston seal element cavity for this material could be 2 mm deep x 2 mm high = 4 mm sq. the 2.4 mm diameter cord = 4.52 sq]

After the compressed state [typically to the relief valve setting of the system], with de-pressurization, the seal element will relax dimensionally and provided an extremely low friction movement in the bore

Upon subsequent pressurization, the seal will expand and provide a leak-free operation

The Graphite impregnated string you show appears to be coarsely woven construction, however a finer woven Graphited cotton twine would have performed the same duty as I suggest the PTFE cord had

The critical points here is the actual [fineness] of construction of the Graphited twine, together with the length & surity of a similar Z cut


Derek
Interesting stuff - sounds great for valves where there is a constant pressure to energise it, but in an engine piston with the pressure coming and going constantly, not sure if it would seal quick enough?   :thinking:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 29, 2021, 03:16:44 AM
I remember from when I built a Stuart Turner D10 many many years ago that it used some sort of string packing for the piston. Dont recall exactly what it was - sure some of you have made their kits, what stuff do they use?
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: john mills on October 29, 2021, 05:38:50 AM
the graphite yarn woven or what ever form needs to be packed in very firmly it can take a bit to get it in if it is enough you might think it is
 to much and won't fit but it can be quit firm and hard to get in but when it is in it will slide quite easily .I have been packing seals  automotive engine crank shafts from when i was an apprentice .you did not have it nearly tight enough.it might seam to tight and  will never free up to be free enough but once it has a little oil and has turned a bit it will .
John
      when you use string or any woven graphite it should be fitted as rings  staggered joints   not just wind round and round in one piece
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 29, 2021, 12:56:11 PM
the graphite yarn woven or what ever form needs to be packed in very firmly it can take a bit to get it in if it is enough you might think it is
 to much and won't fit but it can be quit firm and hard to get in but when it is in it will slide quite easily .I have been packing seals  automotive engine crank shafts from when i was an apprentice .you did not have it nearly tight enough.it might seam to tight and  will never free up to be free enough but once it has a little oil and has turned a bit it will .
John
      when you use string or any woven graphite it should be fitted as rings  staggered joints   not just wind round and round in one piece
Thanks John! Will give it another try!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 30, 2021, 06:49:01 PM
A busy coupl eof days with getting the HP cylinder painted/installed, fine tuning the bearing wedges on the con rods to get things running smoothly, and mass producing flanges for the steam piping. First, here is the HP cylinder with some color on it. Need to get out a small paint brush and dab some on the screw heads still.

(https://i.postimg.cc/R0L9Bh6C/IMG-0364.jpg)
And a look at the steam inlet piping so far, still more screws/nuts to go on, and final spacing on the center pipe section. I added a Tee in the vertical section to split off some input pressure to the other two cylinders for when running on air (which will likely be all it runs on, no boiler suitable, and a very heavy engine to be taking outside anyway). I've also made up another pile of the flanges for use on the exhaust and other cylinders.
(https://i.postimg.cc/HxWmsmXw/IMG-0365.jpg)
For the elbows and tees, I found some 1/4" OD solder fittings (one side down from what is used for 1/4" size tube) at the online plumbing supply places, have not seen it at the local hardware stores. The flanges were soldered onto the ends, and for the sections where there is straight pipe I am using some 1/4" OD brass tube, slipped into the tee/elbow ends, which came flared to take that size. That meant that the flanges for the ends with straight sections could be made as one piece, with a score line to simulate the two pieces, the bolts on those are just for show. For the places where it bolts to the cylinder and the valve, those are actual single flanges that will bolt up with some gasket material between.
So far so good, just a lot of little parts, and running in the 1-72 screws and nuts goes slow - the nuts are held in locking forceps to get them started.

I've also laid out the control arms for the cylinder valves, once the plumbing is done will get started on those - once those are made I can try the valve motion under pressure and manually moving the valves - will be a very very slow running engine at that point!
Chris
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 30, 2021, 09:19:41 PM
More done on the pipework - got the pieces all assembled, letting the gasket sealant on the parts set up, then will take it off the engine tomorrow for paint and final (hopefully, have not pressure tested the joints yet) assembly with the gaskets to the cylinder block.

(https://i.postimg.cc/WzcsLyTr/IMG-0369.jpg)
The clear tube on the right is the air line, it has a quick-connect fitting on the end to attach to the compressor hose. The pipe out the back of the middle tee fitting has a screwed-in plug, sealed with the gasket goop too...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on October 30, 2021, 11:02:27 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Holy bolted flanges Batman!  :Lol:

Is the plugged end of the middle tee eventually going to a simpling valve to allow full pressure to each cyl for starting rather than in compound mode? Nice plumbing work!  :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 31, 2021, 12:32:50 AM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Holy bolted flanges Batman!  :Lol:

Is the plugged end of the middle tee eventually going to a simpling valve to allow full pressure to each cyl for starting rather than in compound mode? Nice plumbing work!  :cheers:
Hi Joker!   :Jester:   :ROFL:




Since this engine is going to be run on air rather than steam, I'm planning on having that back pipe go to two more needle valves, one on each cylinder, and run the exhausts out to a common pipe. The valves on each will be hidden in the receiver tanks, and let me balance the flows for the varying piston sizes. Since they will not show, those two needle valves are off the shelf plumbing bits. With that setup it should self start from any position.




There is also news coming on the Sabino engine CAD model prep, more on that in another week or so.




Just got my copy of the new Shay Illustrated History book, saw Dan Rowes name on the acknowledgement page!  :ThumbsUp:




Chris


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on October 31, 2021, 01:02:25 AM
Schmart! said Siegfried of Kaos.

 (switching show refs from Batman, but I figured you'd get the ref.) Like the needle valve idea.  :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 31, 2021, 01:30:40 AM
Schmart! said Siegfried of Kaos.

 (switching show refs from Batman, but I figured you'd get the ref.) Like the needle valve idea.  :cheers:
Thanks Max!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Roger B on October 31, 2021, 09:41:38 AM
First movement under pressure  :cartwheel: All the plumbing looks great  :praise2: Hopefully you will find a suitable packing system for the pistons  :headscratch:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dan Rowe on October 31, 2021, 03:11:51 PM
Just got my copy of the new Shay Illustrated History book, saw Dan Rowes name on the acknowledgement page!  :ThumbsUp:

Hi Chris, Yes I was originally one of the authors but I dropped out because I was more interested in the engineering than who owned each Shay. The caption for S/N 909 on page 46 is not correct. It did NOT have Allen link motion. It had an Allen-Richardson ballance slide valve. On the same page the description of Gooch gear is not very accurate. The main difference between Stephenson valve gear and Gooch valve gear is the link is stationary in Gooch gear. To make this happen in the limited space the Gooch gear is folded and the link looks like a Stephenson link but it is stationary and the shifting link goes downward to the valve crosshead guide. If anyone wants more info about this I wrote an article about it and can post it on a seperate thread.

Cheers Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 31, 2021, 04:23:46 PM
Just got my copy of the new Shay Illustrated History book, saw Dan Rowes name on the acknowledgement page!  :ThumbsUp:

Hi Chris, Yes I was originally one of the authors but I dropped out because I was more interested in the engineering than who owned each Shay. The caption for S/N 909 on page 46 is not correct. It did NOT have Allen link motion. It had an Allen-Richardson ballance slide valve. On the same page the description of Gooch gear is not very accurate. The main difference between Stephenson valve gear and Gooch valve gear is the link is stationary in Gooch gear. To make this happen in the limited space the Gooch gear is folded and the link looks like a Stephenson link but it is stationary and the shifting link goes downward to the valve crosshead guide. If anyone wants more info about this I wrote an article about it and can post it on a seperate thread.

Cheers Dan
I would be interested in that article about the Gooch gear - lots of variations on the general reverse gear theme that are quite interesting.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 31, 2021, 04:28:39 PM
This morning got the piping pressure tested, then painted and installed. Also put in all the hex head screws on the lower cylinder flange and trimmed the gaskets that stuck out a bit. Lots of fiddling with small open end wrench since the socket would not quite clear the little 'baseboard' bit next to the flanges. Here is a picture of where its at now, ready for some paint on all the screw heads/nuts, and touchup where things got nicked during installation:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Qx7vGQb3/IMG-0370.jpg)
I did some pressure tests on the cylinder with it all in place, can get the piston to move up and down, but its way too complicated to manually move four valve rods with pliers to make it run! So, will move on to the painting then make the crank arms for the valves... Its great to finally see the moving bits moving!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on October 31, 2021, 08:00:08 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on October 31, 2021, 08:33:05 PM
Just got my copy of the new Shay Illustrated History book, saw Dan Rowes name on the acknowledgement page!  :ThumbsUp:

Hi Chris, Yes I was originally one of the authors but I dropped out because I was more interested in the engineering than who owned each Shay. The caption for S/N 909 on page 46 is not correct. It did NOT have Allen link motion. It had an Allen-Richardson ballance slide valve. On the same page the description of Gooch gear is not very accurate. The main difference between Stephenson valve gear and Gooch valve gear is the link is stationary in Gooch gear. To make this happen in the limited space the Gooch gear is folded and the link looks like a Stephenson link but it is stationary and the shifting link goes downward to the valve crosshead guide. If anyone wants more info about this I wrote an article about it and can post it on a seperate thread.

Cheers Dan
I would be interested in that article about the Gooch gear - lots of variations on the general reverse gear theme that are quite interesting.
 :cheers:
Another vote in favor of more info on the differences in the Gooch valve gear.   I'd love to read it if you're willing to post it!
Thanks Dan,
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on October 31, 2021, 08:34:21 PM
That's a lot of complicated pipe work and you're only on the FIRST cylinder!  This is a fascinating and complex build, Chris!  :popcorn:
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on October 31, 2021, 09:36:21 PM
That's a lot of complicated pipe work and you're only on the FIRST cylinder!  This is a fascinating and complex build, Chris!  :popcorn:
Kim
Still having fun with it!  Hopefully the fun survives all the work to come on the catwalks... three of them around the whole engine at different levels, with railings, ladders...   :paranoia:

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: 90LX_Notch on October 31, 2021, 09:54:21 PM
Incredible.

-Bob
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 01, 2021, 01:40:57 PM
Thanks Bob!

Moved on to the valve cranks. On the original, the exhaust cranks are a simple lever like I am making, while the steam intake ones have the full Corliss style lever with adjustable cutoff ratchets and dash pots. At this scale, 1:32, that is just not practical for me to duplicate. So, I'll keep the functionality and layout of the main levers on both only.

To start, took some small square bar and drilled the sets of holes for the first four cranks, which will go on the inlet and exhaust valve rods. There will also be two more larger ones that go in the center of the cylinder and distribute the eccentric arms to the four cranks.
(https://i.postimg.cc/xdFRtPCH/IMG-0371.jpg)
tapered in the sides where the crank arms will be
(https://i.postimg.cc/pLRqTT49/IMG-0372.jpg)
and notched in the bottom faces, also took some off the bottom faces to narrow the part some.
(https://i.postimg.cc/XvvLfPV4/IMG-0373.jpg)
Also took a pass on the top face to thin the arms more from the starting square shape

(https://i.postimg.cc/zG7pRNYx/IMG-0375.jpg)
For the pivots at the end, I got lucky and found these servo link ends from DuBro, who make lots of bits for RC models. I've used the bigger versions of these on some of my boats, and found these to be perfect size for this model. They have a turned ball end fitting with a 0-80 threaded post/nut, and a plastic socket ended piece that snaps over the ball, and a 0-80 threaded socket on the other end. Perfect to replicate the ball rod ends from the original Holly. I'll paint the plastic piece black - the white is a bit garish for this! The version of these that I've used in the past have 2-56 threads and the post/socket pieces are almost twice the size. They come two in a pack for a couple bucks.

(https://i.postimg.cc/0QTCq27y/IMG-0376.jpg)
Here is the first crank arm cut off from the larger bar. The hole in the side was threaded 2-56 halfway through, drilled for clearance the other half, so the sawn slot can draw up and clamp onto the valve rod. One of the ball end links is screwed onto the end hole in the arm. That will connect to another one on the center distribution crank.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ydgT5SgG/IMG-0378.jpg)
A few more to make up, then will start on the center cranks...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dan Rowe on November 01, 2021, 02:38:54 PM
Nice work Chris. I will have to look for those micro ball links. I need some for a Shay project I am working on. Soon to be a build thread.

Cheers Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 01, 2021, 02:40:34 PM
Nice work Chris. I will have to look for those micro ball links. I need some for a Shay project I am working on. Soon to be a build thread.

Cheers Dan
Hi Dan,
Most of the RC parts suppliers have them - I got mine from Tower Hobbies. For the small ones, make sure it is the 'Micro' version with 0-80 threads, the other normal ones are a lot bigger.
Looking forward to the build!
Since the plastic parts are nylon, make sure they are not too close to the firebox!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 01, 2021, 06:50:38 PM
Got the first batch of crank arms assembled onto the model. Sort of.... see below...
(https://i.postimg.cc/K82HdF2N/IMG-0379.jpg)
Then made up the inlet distribution crank, a lot like the first ones but used the lath to turn the back boss
(https://i.postimg.cc/q7BZvLg6/IMG-0380.jpg)
When holding that up to the model to check it, I realized that I had put the ball joints on the first cranks on the outside, they should have been on the inside, so they clear the arms coming up from the eccentrics. Got those swapped around, and here it is with the first center crank held up about in place - it will side on a rod/extension coming out from the boss on the cylinder block sort of like the valve rods do.
(https://i.postimg.cc/y8ybK56z/IMG-0381.jpg)
Thats a good place to stop for the day, the lower back is telling me to go sit in the comfy chair and watch movies with the shop elves...  Elfenstien Meets Dracula?
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: scc on November 01, 2021, 08:30:59 PM
Comfy chair isa good idea.  I need to sit down and rest every time I READ  this incredible build   :o         Terry
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on November 01, 2021, 10:00:02 PM
Chris......

So the valve axis rotation per degree with those 2-56 ball joint threads will give you 0.018" per revolution, by the length of the pivot arm

Not too complicated with a single ball joint in a boat rudder with the R/C trim adjustment, however far more complex with pairs of ball joints interdependent with each other  :hammerbash: ....but I know you will have a plan

Just sitting back in awe  :popcorn:

Derek  :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 01, 2021, 11:04:34 PM
Chris......

So the valve axis rotation per degree with those 2-56 ball joint threads will give you 0.018" per revolution, by the length of the pivot arm

Not too complicated with a single ball joint in a boat rudder with the R/C trim adjustment, however far more complex with pairs of ball joints interdependent with each other  :hammerbash: ....but I know you will have a plan

Just sitting back in awe  :popcorn:

Derek  :cheers:
Actually the ones I got for this model are 0-80, the 2-56 ones were used on the boats, so much finer control on these. Also, can adjust the position of the crank arms on the valve rods, but that will likely be just for gross adjustment, the threads should be fine for getting it within a few degrees of crank rotation which I am hoping is plenty. The timing is adjustable at the eccentric, so the ball joints just need to adjust throw, right? If the valve opens too far, thats fine, its just wider open, there is about 45 degrees from just opening to over rotation and closing again.


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 01, 2021, 11:05:56 PM
Comfy chair isa good idea.  I need to sit down and rest every time I READ  this incredible build   :o         Terry
:Lol:   sorry to wear you out!   :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on November 02, 2021, 01:18:20 AM
Sorry, misread that line  :facepalm:  so 80 TPI = 0.0125" per revolution ...so yes plenty of adjustment ....and as you say, the set point for the commencement of opening is the critical adjustment point ....then fully open is ~~ fully open as a non-specific point

Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 02, 2021, 01:37:57 AM
Sorry, misread that line  :facepalm:  so 80 TPI = 0.0125" per revolution ...so yes plenty of adjustment ....and as you say, the set point for the commencement of opening is the critical adjustment point ....then fully open is ~~ fully open as a non-specific point

Derek


 :ThumbsUp:


Its still going to be a lot of trial and error and marking positions to get it dialed in, most likely.


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: gary.a.ayres on November 02, 2021, 09:17:55 AM
Looking amazing. A masterpiece in the making...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 02, 2021, 04:01:18 PM
Thanks Gary!

Some more valve crank bits made - the second center distribution crank, for the exhaust side, is done, as are the posts/rods that bring the cranks out from the cylinder bosses and into line with the lay shaft. On the larger cylinders these posts are shorter. The rod inside the posts have a pan head screw run in to act as a back stop to keep the rod from coming out through the post.
(https://i.postimg.cc/RFd0YYRF/IMG-0382.jpg)
Next can get the parts assembled onto the cylinder, and measure up for the short rods to connect the ball links. At that point I can test/adjust the motions by turning the center cranks, when happy with that I'll switch over to making the eccentric followers and the long arms that connect them to these cranks....
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: gary.a.ayres on November 02, 2021, 05:17:13 PM
Skills akin to those of a jeweller...  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on November 02, 2021, 05:35:55 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Don1966 on November 02, 2021, 05:59:49 PM
 :Love:………



 :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 02, 2021, 07:05:38 PM
Skills akin to those of a jeweller...  :ThumbsUp:
Jeweler? Faberge would have thrown eggs at me - and not the kind he made!   :Lol:   Appreciate the comment though!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 03, 2021, 02:00:03 PM
This morning finsihed up the linkages between the center and outer valve cranks. The little ball llinks come with a brass rod, drilled at one end for fine rod, other end a 0-80 thread to go into the plastic link. Easiest way to connect them up end to end and get the diameter of the rods that match the plans was to take some steel round bar, and drill the ends to match the OD of the brass rod ends. The brass rods were loctited into the ends of the steel rods.
(https://i.postimg.cc/D0VF6J87/IMG-0383.jpg)
Took a little marking and experimenting, with taking some notes, to figure out where in the valve rotations the ports open/close, and where to clamp the cranks onto them. Have that set now, and with the compressed air on and a little luck in timing, I was able to manually move the center cranks and get a couple rotations. The flywheel wieght is great, enough to carry the crank around well past the TDC/BDC points. Trying to move the valves manually is a real timing game, too late and the flywheel carries the crank past the end of the stroke, and the continued pressure bounces it back past the end again. Too soo, and it tries to reverse before the end of the stroke. But, I was able to hit it right a couple times so I know it will (should, anyway!) run with the proper eccentric timing.  :pinkelephant:

So, on to making the eccentric followers and arms so I can see if it really will run!!    :whoohoo:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 03, 2021, 07:22:18 PM
With a break for a nice three hour lunch out with friends, got a start on the followers for the eccentrics. Cut/trimmed the blocks to size from a 1" wide bar, notched the sides to bolt the follower halves together for boring the center hole, and have started drilling/tapping the sides of them:
(https://i.postimg.cc/kXVCzP02/IMG-0384.jpg)
All are stamped with numbers to keep the mating halves together through the process. Those roll form taps (this time 2-56) are working out quite well.
Once all are bolted together, they will be set up on the lathe for boring out the centers. The eccentrics themselves are narrower than the thickness of these blocks, with no center ridge, so the followers will be undercut in the bore to fit over them at the sides to stay in place.

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Admiral_dk on November 03, 2021, 09:29:11 PM
From what you just told us - I expect interesting / enjoyable times ahead .... and maybe even soon  :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on November 03, 2021, 09:39:02 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 04, 2021, 04:53:45 PM
After getting all the follower halves drilled/tapped, got back over to the lathe to start drilling/boring them out to just under the diameter of the eccentrics, finishing off with a internal threading cutter to undercut the center section out to match the eccentric diameters. That final cut is the critical one, if any go a thou or two too deep I can always take a little off the mating surfaces of the halves and lap them in the final amount. First two are good...
(https://i.postimg.cc/G2J4DH0N/IMG-0387.jpg)
Once all the inside shaping is done, will set up with an expanding arbor on the rotary table to start shaping the outsides. These followers are a little different than typical in how they connect to the arms up to the valves. Usually at this end its a fixed connection, but on the Corliss valves Holly made the connection a hinge point, since the angle to the valve crank will change ever so slightly during the throw as the crank turns. More on that as it gets made...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on November 04, 2021, 09:37:07 PM
Still following along with your excellent (and lighting fast) work, Chris!  :popcorn: :popcorn:

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on November 04, 2021, 09:43:07 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: (following the machining of the followers) (sorry) :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on November 04, 2021, 10:03:00 PM
Chris.....not sure if I have missed the answer many moons ago, and not really sure what types of units of measurement were used for the admission of the steam?....but ....

1. are each pairs of valving just to add [v1+v2] ie., a single larger volume [2V] admitted to each stroke

2. or acting as timed sequential elements in each stroke to admit an initial volume, [v1] then the second element admit a carry over [v2] over time to provide a progressive volume of steam to total [2v]?

Derek

PS.......MEPB is sticking in my mind  :happyreader:, but cannot quantify it here
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 04, 2021, 10:32:37 PM
Chris.....not sure if I have missed the answer many moons ago, and not really sure what types of units of measurement were used for the admission of the steam?....but ....

1. are each pairs of valving just to add [v1+v2] ie., a single larger volume [2V] admitted to each stroke

2. or acting as timed sequential elements in each stroke to admit an initial volume, [v1] then the second element admit a carry over [v2] over time to provide a progressive volume of steam to total [2v]?

Derek

PS.......MEPB is sticking in my mind  :happyreader: , but cannot quantify it here
Hi Derek,


There is a pair of valves at each end of the cylinder, in each pair one is steam inlet, one is exhaust. The inlet valves are both controlled by one eccentric, the exhaust valves by the other eccentric. Makes for a very complex looking arrangement!




By comparison, on the Allis pumping engine, with the same valve arrangement, the HP cylinder used one eccentric linked to both inlet and exhaust. Lots of variations between manufacturers!


Both engines used variable cutoff levers and dashpots on the inlets, the exhaust valves would stay open for the whole stroke.


The MEM Corliss engine many have built here uses one eccentric to move both inlet and exhaust, it also has the pairs of valves. The Corliss engines take getting used to if you are mainly familiar with the D valve style engines.


Chris :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 04, 2021, 10:34:47 PM
Still following along with your excellent (and lighting fast) work, Chris!  :popcorn: :popcorn:

Kim


Thanks Kim!  And no lightning here recently, but we did get a brief snow yesterday!


:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: (following the machining of the followers) (sorry) :Lol:


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: kvom on November 05, 2021, 11:13:37 AM
Same on my Greene engine separate eccentric for exhaust.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on November 05, 2021, 12:39:54 PM
Oh...... OK thanks Chris....the valving is a little simpler [less complex] than I was confusing  :facepalm: :Doh:

Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 05, 2021, 02:07:57 PM
Got one of the arbors dug out of the drawer, got a little stack of them from all the projects - great use for end cuts from the larger bars. Turned a post on the end to fit the bore in the eccentrics, and trimmed the cap to be out of the way of the finished cuts. Cap screws onto the arbor, and also put a small screw out where the arm of the follower will be to ensure that the part cannot rotate from pressure of the end mill - that would wreck a lot of steps if it happened. 

Started by cutting the arc on the bottom edge. The follower in the foreground shows the starting shape.

(https://i.postimg.cc/YSrmmR41/IMG-0388.jpg)
Then raised the cutter and went another .050 farher in on top and bottom to form the flange on the bottom. All of the parts are being run through each step, saves a lot of setup time.
(https://i.postimg.cc/k4ZVzdTc/IMG-0391.jpg)
Then passes to trim off the sides next to the screws, and narrowed the top end where it will surrond the arm.
(https://i.postimg.cc/F1XYFV5k/IMG-0394.jpg)
Here are the parts so far - five more to trim the top end on, then will cut out the center section at the top where the arm will go, that will also remove the temporary screw hole used to keep it from spinning on the arbor....
(https://i.postimg.cc/QCTBrnPr/IMG-0395.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on November 05, 2021, 03:14:48 PM
Nice little pile of parts!  :popcorn:
So what is the flange on the bottom of the followers for?  Is it just for strength?  Or does it have another function?

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 05, 2021, 03:48:25 PM
Nice little pile of parts!  :popcorn:
So what is the flange on the bottom of the followers for?  Is it just for strength?  Or does it have another function?

Kim
Yup, looks like they just put the flange on for strength. I still need to drill a small hole through the bottom flange to access the eccentric set screw without removing the bottom cap.


On the Allis engine in Boston they needed a few more flanges on like that, the lower housings on the poppet valve guides are all cracked since they are just a thin cast piece, no spinal flange.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on November 05, 2021, 05:46:11 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 06, 2021, 04:01:56 PM
Finishing up on the followers, got the notches cut in the top ends to finish forming the tabs that hold the arms up to the valve cranks. Also drilled the cross holes for the pivots, and the holes in the bottom to allow access to the eccentric set screws.
(https://i.postimg.cc/g08ncq9P/IMG-0396.jpg)
Went through some dithering on how to make the pivots for the arms - they have a horizontal tube with a vertical tube in the center that has a threaded top for the arms to screw onto. On the original machines the pivot was a cast piece. I wound up threading together seperate pieces to make it up, holding it all together with loctite and screws.
(https://i.postimg.cc/TwxhKLG5/IMG-0398.jpg)
The screw heads were trimmed off flush, then the pivots cut apart and the ends of the horizontal rod threaded.
(https://i.postimg.cc/BZMtvnzt/IMG-0402.jpg)
Finally assembled the first two followers onto the eccentrics - cannot put the rest on yet, if they spin with the eccentric they would foul the engine frame and jam.
(https://i.postimg.cc/C5PKrc8b/IMG-0403.jpg)
Then made up the arms that take the motion up to the valve cranks. Followed by a bunch of adjusting of arm lengths, crank positions, and general back and forthing. Did not take long to get some partial rotations, then all of a sudden it took off!
 :whoohoo: :pinkelephant: :cartwheel: :wine1: :cheers: :DrinkPint: :) ;D :D 8) ^-^ :Love:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhAVDdPpH0M
Also, while it was running I held a tissue up to the ends of the water inlet tubes down on the pumps at the bottom, and the air movement from the pumps drew on the tissue on both! That means there is a very good chance that it will pump water, all the check valves inside the chambers must be working - big relief!

Super exciting!  Good place to stop work for the day and just play with running it. The pressure from the compressor was at 60psi, and to run it just barely needed the throttle valve cracked open, so I should be able to run at a lower pressure easily, especially when the other cylinders are there - it needs to run at about this speed for now to carry the crank past the top/bottom points, should be able to dial it back a fair bit when the other cylinders are there. They ran the pumps in the 12 to 15 or so RPM range, so running at high speed is not a goal.

Tomorrow we have our next RC submarine run at the local Y pool, and Monday through Wednesday I have another project taking priority, so won't be doing any more parts till later next week. What a great place to pause though!   :) :) :) :)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on November 06, 2021, 04:53:23 PM
Congratulations, Chris!  First run on its own! This is a monumental achievement!  High-five and a happy dance!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on November 06, 2021, 04:54:29 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Fantastic valve motion Chris! great to see it run so well!  :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Jo on November 06, 2021, 06:30:47 PM
Nice  8)

Now what does that remind me of  :noidea:

Jo
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Roger B on November 06, 2021, 06:44:26 PM
Splendid  :praise2:  :praise2: That's a crisp sound  :wine1:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Rick Doane on November 06, 2021, 07:28:01 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:  Congratulations Chris!  Great sound and action.

Rick
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 06, 2021, 08:11:18 PM
Thanks everyone!  I keep going back and running it some more, great to see it go after so long, really looking forward now to getting the other cylinders started.


 :DrinkPint:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 06, 2021, 08:12:39 PM
Nice  8)

Now what does that remind me of  :noidea:

Jo


Suris doing the hula dance?   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Admiral_dk on November 06, 2021, 08:28:47 PM
I don't know about it really took off - even though it's running faster than it should end up doing - I still think that it has a slow steady and even beat that can only be described as a huge success  :praise2:   :praise2:

Congratulations - you have reached a major milestone  :cheers:

Per
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: fumopuc on November 06, 2021, 08:35:41 PM
Hi Chris, very nice.
I do love the motion.
With all 3 cylinders in action it will be really great.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Don1966 on November 07, 2021, 12:10:59 AM
Awesome Dog, man you got my blood pumping to see that engine running……..  :Love:



 :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steamer on November 07, 2021, 12:15:19 AM
She's a runnah!!!   

Congrats Chris!   This engine is quite magnificent!

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on November 07, 2021, 12:29:26 AM
With eyes closed, an intriguing sound, with eyes open ....amazing

A question Chris....I have gone back 20 pages, but see no reference to lubrication of the [admission & exhaust] valve shafts [2 per end] on the original

It is also assumed the construction of stainless valve shafts in bronze bushes, so some additional [daily] lubrication may have been necessary. It is also possible that a remote pressurised grease lubrication system may have been installed [one master pump reservoir per gallery floor]

Your original machinery notes may indicate each of these full-sized engines had at least one dedicated maintenance/lubrication person on shift 24/7, and possibly a small army of additional Plant maintenance people on full time day shift

Speaking of shifts, considering the year :old:, I believe a days work would have been a 12 hour shift?

Derek  :cheers:

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 07, 2021, 01:37:52 AM
With eyes closed, an intriguing sound, with eyes open ....amazing

A question Chris....I have gone back 20 pages, but see no reference to lubrication of the [admission & exhaust] valve shafts [2 per end] on the original

It is also assumed the construction of stainless valve shafts in bronze bushes, so some additional [daily] lubrication may have been necessary. It is also possible that a remote pressurised grease lubrication system may have been installed [one master pump reservoir per gallery floor]

Your original machinery notes may indicate each of these full-sized engines had at least one dedicated maintenance/lubrication person on shift 24/7, and possibly a small army of additional Plant maintenance people on full time day shift

Speaking of shifts, considering the year :old: , I believe a days work would have been a 12 hour shift?

Derek  :cheers:
Hi Derek,
The engine blueprints do show lots of small drain lines, bleed valves, oilers, electric light wires, etc - most are way too small to model well at this scale (a 1/8" line at 1:32 scale requires putting a compression fitting each end of an elf hair! )
The pictures I took at the one visit I was able to make to the Holly engines do show lots of drip feed oilers on the bearings, these are on the lay shaft and governor:

(https://i.postimg.cc/fWtcQqZg/DSC-7565.jpg)
Also there were oiler pumps/distribution lines up at the top catwalk by the Corliss valve fittings:
(https://i.postimg.cc/3rsg8jxr/DSC-7591.jpg)
I bet there was still need for lots of walking around with oil cans to top up the drip feed resevoirs as well as the oil cups in lots of places. I don't recall seeing anything on the steam lines like the displacement oilers we use on models to lube the piston rings.

Now, whenever a new apprentice showed up, after they sent him over to the boiler room for a bucket of steam, I wonder if they handed him an oilcan and told him to climb out on the moving crankshaft to oil the journal pins....   :LittleDevil:

As for duty cycles, these engines did not have to be running every minute of the day. They took water from the lake and pumped them around the city to resevoirs and water towers, so its not like they had to maintain pressure/flow in the water lines to buildings directly. Recently I found out that the output of the pumps, which disappear out the front of the building under the balcony, actually go into a basement room out under the grass courtyard in front of the building. There, they have a webwork of pipes back and forth with big valves at the intersections, which acts as a giant manifold to pick which of the five engines sends water to either the High Service or Low Service output lines - High and Low being the hieght of the water towers or reservoirs, requiring different pressures to pump to. The output destination could be changed as needed to keep them topped up. And, in other than peak demand times of day, one or more of the engines could be throttled back or stopped for maintenance as needed.

Another interesting story (need to look up when it was, think it was in the 1980s), after they had changed over to the electric pumps rather than steam, they had a failure somehow and the lower level of the building got flooded, knocking out the electric pumps. They were able to fire up the steam engines to both pump water to the city and also drain the lower level of the building with the steam pumps. Later on, after the giant brick chimney on the boiler house collapsed, taking out the roof there and some of the boilers, I think they lost the ability to generate enough steam. The boiler building is still there today behind the pump building.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 07, 2021, 01:44:57 AM
Oh, and I mentioned the electric pumps that took over from the steam engines - here is the photo again from the start of the thread, these pumps are in the end of the main building where the 8th steam pump would have been built...
(https://i.postimg.cc/sxL1nZP4/DSC-7535.jpg)
Looks like smurf intestines to me.... no character at all!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on November 07, 2021, 02:09:49 AM
Chris......this is an good example of the Holly Engine automated oiler system....

The arm I have shadowed in yellow is driven by a linkage to a rotating element [one of the valving shafts].....this links to a lever to the oil box and each 'semi' rotation of the valve creates a pumping movement in the oil box

The front of the oil box shows a viewing window........each of the lines has an adjustment and each stroke in the oil box has a visual display of a drip of oil. There would usually be a manual oil box pump handle to stroke & check the pump output to the individual lines when the main engine is dormant

We see a tree of 9 tubes below the oil box & as many above...some with metering valves in the tube lines

Derek

 
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 10, 2021, 09:39:20 PM
Last weekend I mentioned another project I was working on so would not be doing anything on the Holly engine for several days. Here is what's been up:

Ron Ginger was able to track down the right person at Mystic Seaport Museum in Connecticut, and get us access to the Sabino passenger ferry to spend time getting detail measurements of the two cylinder compound steam engine in it!   :whoohoo:   This is the engine that got me into steam engines way back when I was a kid, and we vacationed there one year (went back many times). Watching that engine go during cruises up and down the river really got me hooked on steam. Every since I got into model machining I've wanted to build an model of that engine, but the museum did not have plans on offer. They did sell plans for the ship, and back in the early 1980's I built a radio-controlled model of Sabino, with electric motor.

(https://i.postimg.cc/rpCHFdjb/Sabino131a.jpg)
Ron has been involved down at the museum over the years, and also has wanted to model that engine. Earlier this year I started trading pictures, questions, sketches, etc with 'Steamer' Dave from this forum, who used to be the chief engineer on Sabino - got lots and lots of great info from him.

So, yesterday Ron
(https://i.postimg.cc/GhsCdwhN/IMG-3344.jpg)
and I

(https://i.postimg.cc/dQfYbtvr/IMG-3348.jpg)
got access to the engine room bright and early, and spent hours taking measurements and photos.   :cartwheel:   Great time there - would have spent more time after we were donw wandering around the museum, but it turned out that at the start of the month they went to winter hours, and are closed Mon-Wed, which was a small bummer but it was still well worth the trip down. A while back I had mentioned how they were converting the Sabino over to have a battery bank and an electric motor to run the prop from, since they are trying to be greener and not burn as much coal, plus they are having a hard time finding qualified steam engineers (the US Coast Guard is making the license requirements tougher). They had the prop shaft between the engine and stuffing box removed, I assume to work on that conversion, probably adding pulleys to the shaft to tie in the electric motor. But, turns out the Coast Guard stepped on that whole plan, requiring backup power/motor/etc - so at this point hard to say what will happen. Hopefully they keep running it on steam and keep the ship like it belongs. They are having lots of work to do on other ships in the fleet, they had to pull the Morgan out of the water (they have a giant lift dock) to change the ballast after issues with all the changes they made a couple years ago adding aux engines/etc for the time they sailed it to Boston. The LA Dunton needs a major overhaul, its keel is hogged something fierce. On and on - I think they have let maintenance slide while doing fancy building upgrades and all that kind of thing - the newer executives have a lot to learn...


Before the trip was arranged I had made up a CAD model in Fusion based on what pictures I could get, which was pretty close to accurate in most respects, off a bit here and there, and way off in places as it turned out. But, it generated 2D drawings with no dimensions easy enough, and those pages were used to write all the measurements on, and it gave me a basis to feed in all the correct dimensions after the trip. Over the next week or two the corrected CAD model will be generated, then plans at full scale. The plans will be donated back to the museum for thier collection.Then will scale the CAD model and drawings down to 1:8 scale for the model to be built from. I'll be starting that later after the Holly engine is done, Ron may well start his model before then - a good start on a thundering herd o Sabino engines!

So, thats whats been happening here this week - will be back on the Holly engine tomorrow, and be working on the CAD model in the back ground.
Chris :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Admiral_dk on November 11, 2021, 11:47:28 AM
I do understand the ECO requirement of stop using coal - what will prevent them from firing with wood ?

So it's a done deal that you both will do a complete Sabino set of drawings for the engine (and boiler  :LittleDevil: ) ?
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 11, 2021, 12:25:04 PM
I do understand the ECO requirement of stop using coal - what will prevent them from firing with wood ?

So it's a done deal that you both will do a complete Sabino set of drawings for the engine (and boiler  :LittleDevil: ) ?
I don't know if the boiler is designed to work with wood. Its a water tube design, it was built just a few years ago. I don't have drawings for the boiler, the museum should since they had the replacement made to match the old one with modern welded pipes.


I am doing up the engine drawings, will share that with Ron, both of us want to build the engine.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on November 11, 2021, 12:41:44 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Glad to hear you had a great visit. Sounds like the Sabino powers that be did not talk to the right naval architect / power specialist for the e-conversion. With e-power at sea, (or any marine powerplant, for that matter) reliability has to be engineered in. Backups for the backups of the secondary redundant systems are the order of the day, or disasters can happen. Ask any naval officer. The Coast Guard are wise to be sticklers about this.

Force of habit for me, having dealt with electronic controller IC's and/or PCB's on all manner of equipment over the years, is to take a look and ask the question "how can I bypass this POS when it fails (not if) and keep the machine / vehicle / boat / tool running? (and never trust a battery further than you can walk or swim) Cynical yes, but I don't have to walk or swim home too often. :cheers:

As far as e-power being less polluting, getting away from burning coal will decrease visible and immediate smoke pollution at the boat. On the other hand, the e-power batteries will be charged off the state power grid, which may be a mix of nuclear, coal or gas fired thermal, wind, and solar power generation in the US. It's far from clear how much less polluting e-power is in total, from end to end of the gen process through to vehicle or boat usage. Nuclear power waste for example is the most toxic stuff there is, and we can't get rid of it totally, ever, we just just store it safely. (I do understand that generating stations are more efficient in fuel used per kW generated than individual poweplants in vehicles or boats, but to convert something to e-power and say it's better for the planet just because it's e-power is not thinking about the big picture - it is a popular statement these days though)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 11, 2021, 12:45:29 PM
I do understand the ECO requirement of stop using coal - what will prevent them from firing with wood ?

So it's a done deal that you both will do a complete Sabino set of drawings for the engine (and boiler  :LittleDevil: ) ?
I don't know if the boiler is designed to work with wood. Its a water tube design, it was built just a few years ago. I don't have drawings for the boiler, the museum should since they had the replacement made to match the old one with modern welded pipes.


I am doing up the engine drawings, will share that with Ron, both of us want to build the engine.
Here is what the innards of the Almy boiler look like inside the insulated shell - this is the original that they replaced a couple years ago, new one is same design.
(https://i.postimg.cc/4dqW53HQ/Boiler.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 11, 2021, 12:47:32 PM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Glad to hear you had a great visit. Sounds like the Sabino powers that be did not talk to the right naval architect / power specialist for the e-conversion. With e-power at sea, (or any marine powerplant, for that matter) reliability has to be engineered in. Backups for the backups of the secondary redundant systems are the order of the day, or disasters can happen. Ask any naval officer. The Coast Guard are wise to be sticklers about this.

Force of habit for me, having dealt with electronic controller IC's and/or PCB's on all manner of equipment over the years, is to take a look and ask the question "how can I bypass this POS when it fails (not if) and keep the machine / vehicle / boat / tool running? (and never trust a battery further than you can walk or swim) Cynical yes, but I don't have to walk or swim home too often. :cheers:

As far as e-power being less polluting, getting away from burning coal will decrease visible and immediate smoke pollution at the boat. On the other hand, the e-power batteries will be charged off the state power grid, which may be a mix of nuclear, coal or gas fired thermal, wind, and solar power generation in the US. It's far from clear how much less polluting e-power is in total, from end to end of the gen process through to vehicle or boat usage. Nuclear power waste for example is the most toxic stuff there is, and we can't get rid of it totally, ever, we just just store it safely. (I do understand that generating stations are more efficient in fuel used per kW generated than individual poweplants in vehicles or boats, but to convert something to e-power and say it's better for the planet just because it's e-power is not thinking about the big picture - it is a popular statement these days though)
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Maybe they can put all those tourists to work and run long oars out the side windows.... 

 :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on November 11, 2021, 01:35:28 PM
Now there's an idea! Sabino as a trireme! If they handed out a high energy box lunch and some Red Bull to the tourists, you'd have power and maneuverability a half hour after fueling!  :cheers:

(maybe they could forego chaining them to the benches though, like was done in the original triremes)  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 11, 2021, 02:36:14 PM
Now there's an idea! Sabino as a trireme! If they handed out a high energy box lunch and some Red Bull to the tourists, you'd have power and maneuverability a half hour after fueling!  :cheers:

(maybe they could forego chaining them to the benches though, like was done in the original triremes)  :Lol:
Row faster! The captain wants to waterski! 
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 11, 2021, 02:48:01 PM
Back on the Holly build this morning. Time to move on to the IP cylinder, which has a 2" bore vs the 1" of the HP cylinder, same stroke on all three.  I picked up a chunk of 1" thick brass bar from a regular seller on ebay at a good price. Also got a length of bearing bronze hollow-core for the IP and LP cylinders - big enough around for the LP, the hollow center is small enough to get the IP bore in. This wound up being the cheapest way to get the bar stock for both (still not cheap these days).

The elves tried to help with catching the delivery from the truck, and, um, it did not go well...
(https://i.postimg.cc/x19y2mK4/IMG-0417.jpg)
The SR on the block is my note that it has been stress relieved - whenever I fire up the oven (500F at an hour or so) to stress relieve brass, I like to put in any other longer pieces that will fit and do them all in one go, and mark them so I know for later use.  The sawn ends of the bars for the top/bottom cap/valve blocks were squared up on the mill
(https://i.postimg.cc/0yZG2Nn2/IMG-0418.jpg)
Then clamped the cylinder blank (which is overlong to allow for trimming off where these screws are) to the rotary table and drilled the holes for screws to hold it to the faceplate
(https://i.postimg.cc/HLhQXPFq/IMG-0419.jpg)
With the same setup also drilled close clearance holes in the faceplate, and got them bolted together
(https://i.postimg.cc/9fMd4jgP/IMG-0420.jpg)
Next I need to set up the riser blocks on the lathe to get this blank shaped. The sequence will be the same as on the HP cylinder parts, just larger dimensions.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on November 11, 2021, 07:17:07 PM
Did Bucket Bob and his colleague use the wrong slings to hoist the blocks on the crane? That's gonna leave a mark!  :Lol:

Big work on small faceplate. Looks like a great start on the IP cylinder.  :cheers: :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 11, 2021, 08:53:14 PM
Did Bucket Bob and his colleague use the wrong slings to hoist the blocks on the crane? That's gonna leave a mark!  :Lol:

Big work on small faceplate. Looks like a great start on the IP cylinder.  :cheers: :ThumbsUp:
They saw the bars coming from a distance, and assumed they were small enough to catch!   :facepalm:

3" faceplate holding a 4" bar....  I have several thick steel faceplates that I use for this kind of thing rather than the thin aluminum ones that come from Sherline. These came from Penn Industries I think, they are made for wood turning lathes and happen to have the same thread size as Sherline uses. Much more solid connection with these steel ones. With 8 SHCS's it seems pretty secure. The blank weighs a lot, so once its on the lathe and spinning, it will be a good flywheel effect when the motor is turned off!  I've got more of the cored bar, it came in a 13" long piece, so the rest will be saved for the next big engine project, or maybe slices used for flywheels. It was cheaper to buy the long piece than to pay for the short pieces I needed - always worth checking prices (the big economy size can be more per ounce than several of the smaller packages at the grocery store too! )
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 11, 2021, 10:31:00 PM
And on today's episode of Pushing A Micro Lathe To Its Limits, the riser blocks are on the lathe, and the IP cylinder blank is set up on the faceplate. Started taking some passes to true up the outside faces - the bronze is continuous cast and the ID/OD's are rough. So far its turning very nicely - the Bearing Bronze is nice stuff to turn, much easier than the phosphor bronzes, but a harder surface than brass.

(https://i.postimg.cc/KcdTDHJb/IMG-0421.jpg)
Once I get the outside trued up all the way around, I'll check the alignment of the headstock by measuring the bar at each end, sometimes the headstock needs a slight adjustment after installing the risers to get it parallel to the ways. Its not that critical on the OD, but the bore will need to be parallel so the piston won't bind at the narrow end. Good thing to work on tomorrow!  I spent some time this afternoon on the CAD model for the Sabino, updating everything to the measurements taken off the real one Tuesday. So far so good - as I figured at the time, there would be more camera angles that I'd wish I'd taken pictures at (always happens), so far been able to get everything from the handwritten measurements as well as the pictures. Only took about 200, never enough!   :o
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Admiral_dk on November 11, 2021, 10:45:41 PM
Quote
Only took about 200, never enough!   :o

Ain't that the truth - when you have to transfer to CAD, you always discover all those things you didn't think about .... even though you figured that you have done way too many while taking them  :facepalm2:
Funny thing - it happens to a lot of other times talking pictures too .... and just to make it worse - when you look through them afterwards, you often do not erase those that aren't good enough ....

Still enjoying your build and journey  :cheers:   :popcorn:

Per
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 12, 2021, 02:45:45 AM
Thanks Per!

For anyone in the Ohio area or close to it, just saw that the Cincinnati Triple Steam museum is taking reservations for tours again in 2022. I'm hoping to get down there in the spring, never been there, they tell me its nice... (yes, song reference there). Anyway, its got several giant pumping engines very similar to the Holly engines in Buffalo.


Here is their website:
http://cincinnatitriplesteam.org/

Chris
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on November 12, 2021, 05:41:28 AM
Wow, that song reference brought me back... :)

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steamboatmodel on November 12, 2021, 03:50:46 PM
And on today's episode of Pushing A Micro Lathe To Its Limits, the riser blocks are on the lathe, and the IP cylinder blank is set up on the faceplate. Started taking some passes to true up the outside faces - the bronze is continuous cast and the ID/OD's are rough. So far its turning very nicely - the Bearing Bronze is nice stuff to turn, much easier than the phosphor bronzes, but a harder surface than brass.

(https://i.postimg.cc/KcdTDHJb/IMG-0421.jpg)
Once I get the outside trued up all the way around, I'll check the alignment of the headstock by measuring the bar at each end, sometimes the headstock needs a slight adjustment after installing the risers to get it parallel to the ways. Its not that critical on the OD, but the bore will need to be parallel so the piston won't bind at the narrow end. Good thing to work on tomorrow!  I spent some time this afternoon on the CAD model for the Sabino, updating everything to the measurements taken off the real one Tuesday. So far so good - as I figured at the time, there would be more camera angles that I'd wish I'd taken pictures at (always happens), so far been able to get everything from the handwritten measurements as well as the pictures. Only took about 200, never enough!   :o
I hope you have a digital cammera, as I shutter at the thought of paying for 200 film processing and prints.
Gerald.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 12, 2021, 09:28:10 PM
And on today's episode of Pushing A Micro Lathe To Its Limits, the riser blocks are on the lathe, and the IP cylinder blank is set up on the faceplate. Started taking some passes to true up the outside faces - the bronze is continuous cast and the ID/OD's are rough. So far its turning very nicely - the Bearing Bronze is nice stuff to turn, much easier than the phosphor bronzes, but a harder surface than brass.

(https://i.postimg.cc/KcdTDHJb/IMG-0421.jpg)
Once I get the outside trued up all the way around, I'll check the alignment of the headstock by measuring the bar at each end, sometimes the headstock needs a slight adjustment after installing the risers to get it parallel to the ways. Its not that critical on the OD, but the bore will need to be parallel so the piston won't bind at the narrow end. Good thing to work on tomorrow!  I spent some time this afternoon on the CAD model for the Sabino, updating everything to the measurements taken off the real one Tuesday. So far so good - as I figured at the time, there would be more camera angles that I'd wish I'd taken pictures at (always happens), so far been able to get everything from the handwritten measurements as well as the pictures. Only took about 200, never enough!   :o
I hope you have a digital cammera, as I shutter at the thought of paying for 200 film processing and prints.
Gerald.
Hi Gerald,

Film... Film... Oh, yeah, I remember that stuff!  (I better with 30 years of Kodak work! )

Yup, pocket cameras plus a digital SLR - I sold off my film stuff years ago, do miss the darkroom time though. When I was taking pictures/measurements of the Lombard and Marion machines, wound up taking thousands of pictures, all the different angles with tape measure or ruler in the shot. The cost of film for that would have been outragous, as would the time spent rewinding each roll and loading another!  Just looked at the album size for this Holly build - have posted over a thousand pics just on this thread. Gotta love digital pictures these days.

Does take up a lot of room on the computer (with many backups!)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 12, 2021, 09:31:50 PM
Not much new work worth showing today, got a good start on taking the bar for the IP cylinder down to OD, about ready to start shaping in the flanges on the outside of it. The bore will be left till after the bosses are made and silver soldered on, like was done on the HP cylinder.

A good chunk of this afternoon was spent playing in Fusion, getting the CAD model of the Sabino engine reworked with all the measurements. Some parts were real close, some needed a restart to get the actual shapes correct, like on the eccentric followers. Coming along well, still a few more days worth probably to get the rest of it updated.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 13, 2021, 07:31:04 PM
The IP cylinder outside is turned to size
(https://i.postimg.cc/3NQDyqt8/IMG-0422.jpg)
To steady it during turning a disc was stepped to fit into the end with a center hole for the live center.
(https://i.postimg.cc/J7jXw1hG/IMG-0424.jpg)
Couldn't resist setting it up on the frame for a look..
(https://i.postimg.cc/90PwyBkG/IMG-0425.jpg)
Next will cut the posts for the bosses and make a soldering jig, like was done on the HP cylinder.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on November 13, 2021, 10:50:42 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steamer on November 14, 2021, 12:54:56 AM
The IP cylinder outside is turned to size
(https://i.postimg.cc/3NQDyqt8/IMG-0422.jpg)
To steady it during turning a disc was stepped to fit into the end with a center hole for the live center.
(https://i.postimg.cc/J7jXw1hG/IMG-0424.jpg)
Couldn't resist setting it up on the frame for a look..
(https://i.postimg.cc/90PwyBkG/IMG-0425.jpg)
Next will cut the posts for the bosses and make a soldering jig, like was done on the HP cylinder.

Your getting every DIME out of those Sherlines Chris!!!     :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 14, 2021, 04:54:20 PM
This morning got the bushings for the center corliss valve bits turned and drilled, ready to shape the arc in the inside edges. The spacing of the bushings is the same as on the HP cylinder, just the radius of the inside arc is different, so the same jig will work with these too.
(https://i.postimg.cc/wTSts56x/IMG-0426.jpg)
This afternoon will likely get the jig set up on the rotary table to mill the arcs...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 14, 2021, 06:21:28 PM
After lunch got the jig set up on the rotary table and milled the arcs into the backs of the valve control bushings to match the OD of the cylinder. The bushings are held onto the jig with a 5-40 screw in the center, and a 0-80 screw into one of the four holes for mounting the outer cap - that way the cap screws are kept at the proper orientation.
(https://i.postimg.cc/N0Lm6s3B/IMG-0427.jpg)
The parts so far, ready to silver solder them together. The taller rods are the blanks for the outer caps, with the hole patterns drilled at the same time the bushings were done so the spacings match.
(https://i.postimg.cc/CKtDmy0D/IMG-0428.jpg)
The same jig that was made for soldering the HP cylinder will be re-used, just need to drill one more hole in it for the upper bushing location.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on November 14, 2021, 10:41:06 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on November 14, 2021, 11:31:26 PM
WOW...... :hammerbash: .....will the Sherline lathe accommodate the diameter of the LP cylinder Chris?

Derek  :wine1: :popcorn:  :wine1: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 14, 2021, 11:42:44 PM
WOW...... :hammerbash: .....will the Sherline lathe accommodate the diameter of the LP cylinder Chris?

Derek  :wine1: :popcorn: :wine1: :popcorn:
With the riser blocks in, yes. The LP cylinder will be cut from another length of the same hollow bar, but will have the center bored out rather than the outside turned down.


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RReid on November 15, 2021, 12:50:47 AM
It just keeps growin' and growin' and growin'....
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 15, 2021, 01:14:56 AM
It just keeps growin' and growin' and growin'....
 :cheers:
Glad the bench is sturdy, its getting heavier and heavier!  Need to work out where to display it...


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 15, 2021, 05:10:35 PM
This morning got the jig to hold the bushings for silver soldering modified and the parts soldered on - need a while to cool off before taking a swim in the pickle solution. The jig has a small screw at the bottom end of the cylinder to hold it in place.

(https://i.postimg.cc/MKxkYSRj/IMG-0429.jpg)
As mentioned before, Ron and I took a trip down to Mystic Seaport to measure the compound engine in the Sabino. Since then I've updated the CAD model with the actual dimensions. Lots of the model could be adjusted, a few parts were re-drawn, and some new ones added for details that I didn't have views of before, like the thrust bearing going to the prop shaft. After getting things updated, I added color to the parts and gave the Render option in Fusion a try - came out quite well!
(https://i.postimg.cc/bNqMtRcx/Sabino-Engine-Render.jpg)
Hopefully the biggest difference between the CAD and real versions are that the CAD one needs a coating of oil and grease on the moving parts!  Next on that project will be to generate the plan sheets at full size to send to the museum, then will scale it all down to 1:8 size and make plans at model size.  Some of you like to fondle castings while waiting for a project to make it to the top of the queue, I prefer to drool on the plans....   :Lol:

Chris   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: ddmckee54 on November 15, 2021, 05:35:03 PM
Chris:

NICE drawing!!

Drooling on the plans is all well and good if they are paper plans, drooling on the screen - not so much.  Something about the angry pixies and the liquids not going well together.  You'll need to be sure your screen is properly rated to avoid this.  Might I suggest something in a nice NEMA3 or NEMA4 rating?  Or possibly even a nice little IP66?

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on November 15, 2021, 06:38:29 PM
I put some Saran wrap over my screen and had a good look at your rendering. Top notch engine model / render!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
:popcorn: :popcorn:

(but some soggy Saran wrap now)  :Lol:

IP solderment looks great too.  :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on November 15, 2021, 06:43:16 PM
Nice soldering on the IP cylinder, Chris!   :popcorn:
And your next project is shaping up nicely.  That is quite the beauty rendering there.  Looks like a photo of an actual model.  The only thing that gives it away is the overly blank background. :)  :ThumbsUp:

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 15, 2021, 06:45:30 PM


 :facepalm2:      And this is why we are not allowed in the good museums anymore, drooling on the exhibits....   :Jester:


Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 15, 2021, 06:48:59 PM


The cylinder is doing laps in the Sparex pickle solution... Interesting how it turned brown when it cooled (except for where the soot marks made it black).  Tomorrow I'll get it mounted back on the lathe faceplate and can start boring out the inside. I need to work out how the top/bottom caps will be held for shaping and in what order - want to get to the stage of drilling all the mounting holes around the cylinder at the same time/same setup so they all match up. More time studying/drooling on the plans for THIS engine!
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 15, 2021, 09:53:01 PM
One of the guys over on the rc submarine forum shared this link


https://tinycircuits.com/collections/diy-kits/products/tiny-video-player-kit


My shop elves are using one to build a big screen tv for thier break room...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 16, 2021, 03:55:15 PM
The IP cylinder is back on the faceplate/lathe ready for turning the bore to size as well as a light face cut to form the flange on the bottom end.
(https://i.postimg.cc/C5KkWVh7/IMG-0431.jpg)
But, before that work starts, I took a time out to make a proper riser block for the quick change toolpost, to replace the cobbled-up ones that I'd been using:
(https://i.postimg.cc/NMDRJ0cL/IMG-0430.jpg)
The base plate is bolted to the riser from the bottom, and the pair of t-slot screws keeps it all stable on the cross slide. With that done, the boring work can start on the cylinder. After lunch!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 16, 2021, 08:20:01 PM
After a good lunch and some time outdoors moving leaves (my trees are all bare now, been getting some snow already) I got the IP cylinder bored out to size. Being a hollow cast bar to start, it was mainly a matter of truing up the inside from the rough continuous cast surface.
(https://i.postimg.cc/zXDSb6h8/IMG-0433.jpg)
Then formed the step in the end, where it will sit into the recess in the base.
(https://i.postimg.cc/rwK1g4gH/IMG-0434.jpg)
Then removed the cylinder, still on the faceplate till the mounting hole pattern is drilled in the flange, and set it aside for now. Centered up the cylinder base (which will have the valves/passsages in it like the HP one did) blank and turned in the cylinder mounting flange.
(https://i.postimg.cc/hPC89s8x/IMG-0435.jpg)
While it is in the chuck, I'll drill the center hole for the piston rod and turn in the recess to take the cylinder flange. Also will keep it in the chuck till the mounting hole pattern is drilled to match the cylinder end. The square portion of the base is still a little oversize, that will be taken down so the flat sides are a little narrower than the round portion.The top block will get a similar shaping, with the exception that the top cap is not square, it is round with its OD matching the cylinder flange. It will also get the valve tubes/passages in it. It is handy to have a second 4-jaw these days (picked up a large collection of Sherline accessories and machines that were very slightly used from someone downsizing - I got a nice price on the package that I could not pass up).
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on November 17, 2021, 02:55:37 AM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 17, 2021, 02:20:25 PM
Got the piston rod hole drilled and the recess turned into the face of the cylinder base...
(https://i.postimg.cc/QMB75Dt2/IMG-0436.jpg)
then swapped chucks to start the cylinder top cap. The top one is round all the way up rather than square like the base cap. I turned the blank round as far as possible with the piece held in the 4-jaw, will finish off the last section later when the first face is mounted on the faceplate.
(https://i.postimg.cc/MGhQmLfv/IMG-0437.jpg)
And likewise turned in the recess in the center. This one does not get the center hole.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ydcSQT0n/IMG-0438.jpg)
Next will be to move over to the mill and drill the bazillion mounting holes in the cylinder and caps. After the first end holes are drilled in the cylinder, it can be put on a faceplate and the second end trimmed off, then can drill that end too....
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on November 17, 2021, 05:17:57 PM
Looking good!   :popcorn: :popcorn:

You're moving along at breakneck speed, as usual.   All while juggling 14 other hobbies and spending significant time doing CAD work for your NEXT major undertaking - you exhaust me just reading your build thread, Chris!

I don't know how you're going to hold the LP base.  Looks like the IP is stretching the limits of the chucks as it is.  Do you have another holding method in mind for the LP?

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Flyboy Jim on November 17, 2021, 06:07:10 PM
Looking good!   :popcorn: :popcorn:

You're moving along at breakneck speed, as usual.   All while juggling 14 other hobbies and spending significant time doing CAD work for your NEXT major undertaking - you exhaust me just reading your build thread, Chris!

I don't know how you're going to hold the LP base.  Looks like the IP is stretching the limits of the chucks as it is.  Do you have another holding method in mind for the LP?

Kim

Good morning Kim. Chris covered this in post #1629.

Jim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Craig DeShong on November 17, 2021, 07:08:58 PM
I've been away for a few days ... and as usual, I had numerous pages of the thread to view; including the first FANTASTIC run of the engine.  I have no appropriate superlatives to issue, so I'll just say: "Fantastic job Chris".
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 17, 2021, 07:36:53 PM
I've been away for a few days ... and as usual, I had numerous pages of the thread to view; including the first FANTASTIC run of the engine.  I have no appropriate superlatives to issue, so I'll just say: "Fantastic job Chris".
Thanks Craig!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 17, 2021, 07:41:23 PM
Looking good!   :popcorn: :popcorn:

You're moving along at breakneck speed, as usual.   All while juggling 14 other hobbies and spending significant time doing CAD work for your NEXT major undertaking - you exhaust me just reading your build thread, Chris!

I don't know how you're going to hold the LP base.  Looks like the IP is stretching the limits of the chucks as it is.  Do you have another holding method in mind for the LP?

Kim
Hi Kim/Jim,
All three cylinders will be held in roughly the same way for the same processes, but you are correct in that the LP one is too large a diameter for the 3" faceplates. I have some wide steel and aluminum stock that can be used to make a larger diameter plate to bolt to the faceplate to span the larger size, since the LP cylinder is a 3" bore, something like a 3.5" diameter overall (going from memory on that last size). I've done the same thing on flywheels, have a 8" add-on plate for the faceplate in the pile somewhere - that was used with the headstock turned 90 degrees to hang it off the back.So, long-winded way of saying I will add a wider plate to the faceplate to make a faceplate+plate...! 

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on November 17, 2021, 08:00:15 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 17, 2021, 08:15:05 PM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
:cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 17, 2021, 08:55:10 PM
This afternoon got started drilling holes in the base end of the cylinder
(https://i.postimg.cc/c4pBdTc7/IMG-0440.jpg)
There is more room on these, so have switched to 2-56 screws. Then drilled the matching tap-size pattern in the base block
(https://i.postimg.cc/Pqhbwx9P/IMG-0441.jpg)
and also started drilling the matching pattern in the faceplate. For the cylinder holding, these will be tap size. After the cylinder is done I'll drill them out to clearance size to hold the top/bottom caps, since they will be tapped themselves.
(https://i.postimg.cc/qv2XqnmP/IMG-0442.jpg)
Only halfway round the faceplate so far, taking a break from cranking. And cranking. And cranking...!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dan Rowe on November 17, 2021, 10:37:21 PM
Wow Chris you need the Sherline rotary CNC indexer for this work.... Looks good though. Did you do a set of center pops then drill? That is a bunch of cranking it would make me cranky for sure.
 :DrinkPint:
Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 17, 2021, 11:00:36 PM
Wow Chris you need the Sherline rotary CNC indexer for this work.... Looks good though. Did you do a set of center pops then drill? That is a bunch of cranking it would make me cranky for sure.
 :DrinkPint:
Dan

Hi Dan,

Fortunately the holes are 10 degrees apart, so two full cranks on the rotary table, so easy to keep track of. And yes, went around once with a center drill first, that is my usual method, especially with this many holes even a small skate on the drill bit would be nasty to get the holes aligned.  I dont like to do center marks with a punch, that just raises a ridge and leaves a hard spot, with a center drill the mark is deep enough to help guide the drill, and I try and pick one about the same diameter as the drill bit.


Going to be several more sessions to get the rest of the holes drilled, then more sessions to tap them! The roll form taps are great for the brass and bronze, no backing out to clear chips needed. For the steel faceplate it will be a normal cutting tap, but on the faceplate I'm only tapping about half the holes, that will be enough to hold, and the other larger holes in the faceplate are in the way anyway. I do have more of the faceplates, they are more of a consumable with this kind of work - as mentioned before they are made for wood turning lathes but thread matches the Sherline headstock, and the steel is not hardened.

Oh, and once the base end is done, I get to do another whole set of holes on the top end...  :paranoia:

Between some of the sessions, I've been working up the plan sheets for the Sabino engine for the museum, or doing more CAD drawing on the Allis engine for the other museum. Fun stuff, so its not w*rk.  If it was still warmer outside there would be a lot more outside time too!

 :cheers: Chris
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on November 18, 2021, 12:08:18 AM
All that cranking!  That's one thing I don't miss using my Taig - all that cranking the Z-axis for drilling holes.  It's nice to have that fine control over depth, sometimes, but there are many times that a quill feed is super handy - and a LOT less cranking!

Maybe they'll come up with a quill feed for Sherline's someday? :)

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 18, 2021, 01:01:56 AM
All that cranking!  That's one thing I don't miss using my Taig - all that cranking the Z-axis for drilling holes.  It's nice to have that fine control over depth, sometimes, but there are many times that a quill feed is super handy - and a LOT less cranking!

Maybe they'll come up with a quill feed for Sherline's someday? :)

Kim
The old Unimat I had many years ago had the quill feed, but not the crank - sometimes both would be good! I do have the little Proxxon drill press with quill feed, but it doesn't have the x/y positioning that the mill does. Hmm, make up a way to mount the Proxxon to the mill head.... Would be nice for lots of small holes!   hmmm.....
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on November 18, 2021, 01:23:48 AM
"roll form taps are great for the brass and bronze"......"no backing out to clear chips needed"

Chris....I have recent comments, but have never used "roll form taps" .....I can understand a constant [non jerky] pressure would be desirable, however do you select an appropriate low speed & engage auto depth feed rate?, or doesn't the Sherline provide such a low rate?

Derek

PS ...I wondered how many tappings there were ....but I lost count, so ... :headscratch: ......it appears to be 36  :Doh:

Just reread the text.......no quill feed on the Sherline  :Mad:

 
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 18, 2021, 01:54:35 AM
"roll form taps are great for the brass and bronze"......"no backing out to clear chips needed"

Chris....I have recent comments, but have never used "roll form taps" .....I can understand a constant [non jerky] pressure would be desirable, however do you select an appropriate low speed & engage auto depth feed rate?, or doesn't the Sherline provide such a low rate?

Derek

PS ...I wondered how many tappings there were ....but I lost count, so ... :headscratch: ......it appears to be 36  :Doh:

Just reread the text.......no quill feed on the Sherline  :Mad:
Hi Derek,
Yup - 36 holes at each end of the cylinder.
I never power feed taps, have always done them by hand. I do have a tap stand that I got this past year, works well. For most things larger than 1-72 I usually just use the t-handle tap holder though for things like this with so many to tap the tap stand is a better way to go, fingers get tired more with the t-handle one. With power feed, stopping when hitting the bottom of the hole would be tricky, wouldn't it? Sherline doesn't have any fancy features for tapping.

I just recently started using the roll form taps after hearing about them on this forum. Got some in 0-80, 1-72, and 2-56. They work great for soft metals like brass, not good for steel. The drill size is different than for cutting taps, since it is deforming the metal to squeeze it over and up to make the thread, so the drill is slightly larger than for cutting taps. With no flutes, the tap is thick all the way around so is stronger, still possible to snap one if its pushed sideways. And with no chips generated, no backing out every few turns is needed on blind holes.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dan Rowe on November 18, 2021, 02:29:02 AM
I just recently started using the roll form taps after hearing about them on this forum. Got some in 0-80, 1-72, and 2-56. They work great for soft metals like brass, not good for steel.

Chris, I use form taps all the time for low carbon mild steel. It is high carbon steel and hard steel that does not work well. Any free machining steel is fine for roll taps.

Cheers Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 18, 2021, 02:37:54 AM
I just recently started using the roll form taps after hearing about them on this forum. Got some in 0-80, 1-72, and 2-56. They work great for soft metals like brass, not good for steel.

Chris, I use form taps all the time for low carbon mild steel. It is high carbon steel and hard steel that does not work well. Any free machining steel is fine for roll taps.

Cheers Dan
Ah, didn't realize that it would work on any steel. Think that its okay with 303 stainless?
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dan Rowe on November 18, 2021, 04:08:57 AM
Chris I had to look that up
https://www.mscdirect.com/basicsof/thread-forming-taps
MSC lists stainless steel.
https://www.cnccookbook.com/different-types-thread-taps-complete-guide-choosing/
This one says material up to 36 HRC which includes a wide range of materials including a lot of steels.

So I think it is a yes for 303 stainless.

Cheers Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 18, 2021, 02:37:42 PM
Thanks Dan!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 18, 2021, 02:41:03 PM
So, the rotary table went round and round....
(https://i.postimg.cc/8cyRqJdj/IMG-0443.jpg)
Got the holes drilled in the cylinder bottom end, both end caps, the faceplate, and remembered to drill some gasket material (held between two pieces of thin plywood and clamped to faceplate). After the cylinder top end is trimmed back, will drill those holes too.
Next step is to start tapping all the holes. As mentioned, for this am using a tap stand:
(https://i.postimg.cc/2yjdcFZs/IMG-0444.jpg)
ten holes tapped, a truckload to go... will be doing these in batches to avoid overworking the hands.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on November 18, 2021, 03:06:12 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

All I can say is "holy!"  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 18, 2021, 03:42:37 PM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

All I can say is "holy!"  :Lol:
The drill bits and taps are saying 'go work on something else!'   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 18, 2021, 04:40:56 PM
Update on the faceplate plan for when I get to the LP cylinder (which has a bore the size of the faceplates I have). I checked, and the maker of the faceplates I have also make a 4" diameter one with the 3/4-16 spindle thread. Makes that job easier, no need to make/add another plate, ordered one of those!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: mklotz on November 18, 2021, 05:37:51 PM
Someone with your creative skills shouldn't have to hand-tap that many holes.  What you need is a modelmaker's power tapping machine.

I'm thinking of a stepping motor that drives the existing tapping machine via gears.  A programmable chip (e.g. Arduino) drives the motor for a user-selectable number of tap rotations (thus limiting depth of thread).  Once those are completed it reverses and backs the tap out and awaits the next hole.

Like everyone else, I've run out of superlatives to describe your work, cleverness, speed, persistence, documentation, etc..  Suffice it to say that I'm overwhelmed.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 18, 2021, 06:03:24 PM
Someone with your creative skills shouldn't have to hand-tap that many holes.  What you need is a modelmaker's power tapping machine.

I'm thinking of a stepping motor that drives the existing tapping machine via gears.  A programmable chip (e.g. Arduino) drives the motor for a user-selectable number of tap rotations (thus limiting depth of thread).  Once those are completed it reverses and backs the tap out and awaits the next hole.

Like everyone else, I've run out of superlatives to describe your work, cleverness, speed, persistence, documentation, etc..  Suffice it to say that I'm overwhelmed.
Sounds too much like the firmware w*rk I used to do!  For fine taps you'd also want force feedback detection to know if it hit bottom of a shallow hole, bound up with chips  etc, and back out. Then you need the chip brush, oiler, wiper,...  Cookie fetcher...


I'd rather do things by hand, thats the fun of it.


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 18, 2021, 07:08:28 PM
For all my complaining, the tapping didnt really take that long
(https://i.postimg.cc/JzcBHHgv/IMG-0449.jpg)
Got the cylinder bolted onto the faceplate with the bottom end now at the faceplate,

(https://i.postimg.cc/GhDDr5jc/IMG-0445.jpg)
and turned the top end down to final size. Used the tailstock/plate again just to ensure no wobble or digging in and disasters while taking the bulk of it down. Here, there is just a thin cylinder left near the bore:
(https://i.postimg.cc/QM8KQxZt/IMG-0446.jpg)
then removed the tailstock support, and took some light cuts to trim off the final cylinder wall, leaving the flange that locates the cylinder cap:

(https://i.postimg.cc/rpf0QXq9/IMG-0447.jpg)
Then moved the faceplate/part over to the rotary table, which is still locked in at the settings for the bolt circle from the other parts, and started drilling the holes, starting with a center drill to spot the locations. I had also set up the cylinder and top cap, marking out the locations of two of the front holes so that I would have the cap location lined up with the bosses. I'll use the still-square section of the cap to locate the valve and steam/exhaust passages, so everything lines up correctly.
(https://i.postimg.cc/CxVqKsvb/IMG-0448.jpg)
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on November 19, 2021, 12:13:26 AM
Beautiful!   :popcorn:
That's a lot of screws there Chris!  And I'm sure you FEEL that - you tapped every one of those holes :)

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on November 19, 2021, 01:56:19 AM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Don1966 on November 19, 2021, 03:47:47 AM
 :Love:……….



 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 19, 2021, 04:28:33 PM
Thanks guys!
Got the last of the holes drilled in the top of the cylinder, and set the parts up on the engine for a family shot:
(https://i.postimg.cc/NFkb738Y/IMG-0450.jpg)
Then on to drilling the holes for the valve tubes in the base/top caps. These are larger diameter than the ones in the HP cylinder, to handle the increased volume of the steam. Started out with a 1/4" drill, and stepped up the size several times to the final diameter to keep a smoother hole - too deep for the boring head to be practical. The final drills were too large for the drill chuck (3/8" max) and too long for it anyway, ran out of column height, so the last few drills were held in the three-jaw.

(https://i.postimg.cc/g01MYqk9/IMG-0451.jpg)
Five passes on each hole in the base to finish them off:
(https://i.postimg.cc/9MTLzRrD/IMG-0452.jpg)
On the top cap, with its curved surface, started with making flats with an end mill to give the drills a good surface to start on
(https://i.postimg.cc/g0xSFBpq/IMG-0453.jpg)
the switched over to the drills - about halfway done on the first hole, will continue after lunch.
(https://i.postimg.cc/3NTnG8vn/IMG-0454.jpg)
When these holes are done, will drill in from the sides for the inlet/exhaust passages...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 20, 2021, 05:02:47 PM
Quite a bit accomplished on the cylinder caps today. Started out by bolting the top cap to the faceplate (drilled out the tapped holes from attaching the cylinder to clearance size so the screws could go through to the tapped holes in the caps).
(https://i.postimg.cc/ydbfG5vc/IMG-0456.jpg)
then turned off the square portion, after marking the front face centerlines for the grid work to come. Also turned the top face to a shallow dome.
(https://i.postimg.cc/SQw42tkn/IMG-0457.jpg)
Moved the faceplate over to the rotary table and marked out the grid to be put into the top. Started by milling in the openings on one side

(https://i.postimg.cc/qgf1JKf7/IMG-0458.jpg)
then the other
(https://i.postimg.cc/13SZMngP/IMG-0459.jpg)
followed by, you guessed it, the remaining two sides
(https://i.postimg.cc/4yH8R5SM/IMG-0460.jpg)
and finished off with the four center squares, plunge cut in then milled out
(https://i.postimg.cc/y6JBNz4q/IMG-0461.jpg)
leaving a mostly-done top cap for the cylinder to wear as a shiny new hat
(https://i.postimg.cc/xTM2Ky1t/IMG-0462.jpg)
The valve tubes and inlet/exhaust flanges still need to be added to the top cap. Well, bottom cap too!

Then bolted the bottom cap onto the faceplate, and bored out the cavity in the bottom to let the piston rod gland be recessed in, as well as a counterbore for the o-ring to seal the piston rod.

(https://i.postimg.cc/fRvQPzXd/IMG-0463.jpg)
Next will make the piston rod gland and get its screw holes drilled/tapped while the piece is on the faceplate. After that, can start shaping in the sides of the block. The block bolts to the engine frames down two sides - for those screws the left/right sides need to be undercut to form an opening for the screws to go in. On the real one that gap was big enough for someone to reach in and set the nuts and get wrenches in to tighten them. At this scale, its going to be some fiddly work with needle nose and open end wrenches to get the screws in.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on November 20, 2021, 05:46:49 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Looking great Chris!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 20, 2021, 05:59:55 PM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Looking great Chris!
Thanks!  It sure seems like this cylinder is going a lot faster, given how similar it is to the first one.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on November 20, 2021, 06:45:25 PM
Great work, Chris!  :popcorn:

It sure seems like this cylinder is going a lot faster, given how similar it is to the first one.

Like seeing a movie for the second time - it seems to go faster because you know what's coming next :)

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Don1966 on November 21, 2021, 03:21:01 AM
Awwwww….. the smell of brass. Dog you just got to show of that brass you know ……I……………likeeeeeee… :Love:


 :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 21, 2021, 05:46:17 PM
Thanks guys!

And for the record, here is what the shop elves did to the last guy who said my lathe was only good for woodworking...
(https://i.postimg.cc/fTMwqsNd/buriedshovel.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 21, 2021, 05:51:07 PM
Some more done on the IP cylinder base this morning. Got the piston rod gland made and fitted
(https://i.postimg.cc/SKnQLGpt/IMG-0464.jpg)
then started taking the sides down to final dimension, leaving the cylinder mounting ring sticking out (this is how the original had it, in case you wondered)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Pq0XS8Xf/IMG-0465.jpg)
Here it is with all four sides taken down - the front/back edges overhang more than the left right ones do:
(https://i.postimg.cc/nrGnVRvM/IMG-0466.jpg)
and had to pose it with the other parts:
(https://i.postimg.cc/T2VdcwZG/IMG-0467.jpg)
Now am recessing the sides at the bottom for where the bolts that hold the base to the engine frames will go. Plenty of room on the full size engine for someone with a wrench to get in there, for the model its going to be a pain in the swarf to run them in:
(https://i.postimg.cc/RFfMyVh7/IMG-0469.jpg)
One side slotted, one to go. The bottom/side edges get taken back a little more, to where the horizontal blue line is in the photo.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on November 21, 2021, 09:20:45 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Flyboy Jim on November 22, 2021, 04:01:20 AM
Thanks guys!

And for the record, here is what the shop elves did to the last guy who said my lathe was only good for woodworking...
(https://i.postimg.cc/fTMwqsNd/buriedshovel.jpg)

I love it!  :lolb:

Jim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 22, 2021, 05:16:14 PM
Hi Jim!   :cheers:

This morning got the IP cylinder base test fit on the engine frames, and marked out/drilled for the mounting holes.
(https://i.postimg.cc/pVGT3QN2/IMG-0471.jpg)
Checked the piston rod for squareness to the base, and spent some time adjusting the plunger rods to true it up - the four rods down to the pump plunger keep the piston rod and the crosshead yoke in line, so tweaking the adjusting nuts can tilt the piston rod back and forth. Thats all running true now, so its on to making the valve tubes and rods. I had a little trouble with the HP valve rods warping a bit when I milled the flats on one side, so this time am going to put flats on both sides to keep them straight - the openings in the tubes are at right angles to each other, and the throw on the valve rods is small enough so having the extra flat won't be a problem. Thought about doing that when I made the HP set, but was not sure of the angular throw at that point. These rods and tubes look just like the HP ones, just a larger diameter.

Time for lunch - where's that chef elf? !
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on November 22, 2021, 07:04:40 PM
After doing all that drilling, I imagine you will want anything EXCEPT Swiss cheese on your sandwich!  :Lol:

the IP fit up looks great!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 22, 2021, 07:10:32 PM
After doing all that drilling, I imagine you will want anything EXCEPT Swiss cheese on your sandwich!  :Lol:

the IP fit up looks great!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
More holes, AHHHHHHHHHHH!!    :paranoia:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on November 23, 2021, 01:04:42 AM
Hi Chris.......the depth of bolted engagement in the LP barrel base spigot at first appeared as questionable & had me tossed [with respect to the cross porting]

However it appears that the shiny surface reflections of the recently machined brass base disguised the actual height of the base spigot

So from the mockup image, it appears that you could have say bolt diameter x 2 engagement??

Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 23, 2021, 01:24:45 AM
Hi Chris.......the depth of bolted engagement in the LP barrel base spigot at first appeared as questionable & had me tossed [with respect to the cross porting]

However it appears that the shiny surface reflections of the recently machined brass base disguised the actual height of the base spigot

So from the mockup image, it appears that you could have say bolt diameter x 2 engagement??

Derek
Hi Derek,
Yeah, fresh cut brass is tough to photograph!  The flanges are about .100 to .125 thick, and on the caps the holes go a bit deeper than the flange (except where the flanges overhang the base cap) to give room for the taps. I'm using 1/4" and 3/8" long screws, the gaskets are thin so they dont take up much.  The ports are down in the cap blocks, unlike most steam engines we do where the ports are running through the side walls these are totally in the caps - the valve rods run across the cap blocks, and have passages that come up vertically from them into the centers of the bores.  The screw holes do run into the valve tubes a bit, but not through into the valve bores, the tubes have thick walls. On the original the tubes and all the passages were part of the castings, they must have had a very complex set of moulds and patterns for all the ports and outside shapes!
Chris
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 23, 2021, 01:25:40 AM
Oh, and looking back at the photos, the camera angle makes it appear that the bores for the valve tubes are right up to the flange bottoms, they are not, there is actually more room there.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 23, 2021, 03:18:47 PM
Not much to look at, but important parts - getting the valve tubes bored and turned to shape. The valve rods on this cylinder were large enough diameter that I could use a thin boring bar to take the tube out to ID.
(https://i.postimg.cc/rFCc3mVN/IMG-0472.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 24, 2021, 03:10:07 PM
Lotsa brass swarf flying lately, been working on the pipe flanges and valve tube bonnets...
(https://i.postimg.cc/c1X7nT1N/IMG-0473.jpg)
Then started turning the ends on the valve rods. They step down at the ends to go through the bonnets and into the crank arms. I'll put an o-ring at the step to seal up the end of the tube.
(https://i.postimg.cc/PrJWzZNv/IMG-0474.jpg)
After the ends are turned, the next steps will be to mill the valve flats in the center of the rods and trim the back ends of the rods to final length.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on November 24, 2021, 03:16:35 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Are the elves still using a bunch of wheelbarrows to deal with all the solid gold chips/swarf, or did they build a conveyor powered by the Marion engine to take it out to the Mann truck?  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 24, 2021, 03:45:47 PM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Are the elves still using a bunch of wheelbarrows to deal with all the solid gold chips/swarf, or did they build a conveyor powered by the Marion engine to take it out to the Mann truck?  :Lol:
They took the shop vac out of the wood shop and made a vacuum transport tube from my workbench to their vault!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on November 24, 2021, 06:20:55 PM
A beautiful flock of brass flanges there, Chris!   :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:

You just keep turning out the parts!
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 24, 2021, 07:01:41 PM
Thanks akim, I kept stopping and looking at the assembly to see what other parts wanted the same hole patterns, wanted to make them all with the same setup.


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on November 24, 2021, 10:51:10 PM
Thanks akim, I kept stopping and looking at the assembly to see what other parts wanted the same hole patterns, wanted to make them all with the same setup.

 :cheers:
Makes a lot of sense :)
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 26, 2021, 03:19:29 PM
More work on the valve rods - got the flats milled in the middle of them, milled both sides to keep them straight. After milling one side and checking on a straight edge, there was a very small deflection, after milling the second side the same size they went back to straight. Learned that lesson on the first cylinder, when I had binding problems on the valves.
Also got the valve tubes loctited in place. After the loctite cured up I ran a little fillet of JB Weld around the joint on the side inlet/outlet openings as a belt-and-suspenders move, to ensure that no air would leak through around the tube there. Easy to do now, hard to do later if it was really needed. The flanges for the side openings are not attached yet.

(https://i.postimg.cc/qMHvrTcj/IMG-0477.jpg)
Next step was to trim the valve rods to final length. I had left the back end long, and did all the measurements for the narrow end and the flats from the front. The tubes have a plug at the back end, so the rods do not stick all the way through. I pushed the rods into place, with the o-ring in place on the front end, and measured/marked each for how much needed to be trimmed off to get the o-ring flush with the fornt face. The o-ring does not need to be compressed by the front bonnet, it seals around the perimeter, but I want it to keep the rod from sliding forward and back during running.

(https://i.postimg.cc/TYjYY4CG/IMG-0479.jpg)
With the length measured for each (different since they were just rough cut to length), they were chucked up in the lathe and the parting tool zeroed on the back end then moved in that distance to cut. They are all set, ready for installation with the bonnets:
(https://i.postimg.cc/52x9HSRz/IMG-0480.jpg)
Before that installation though, I want to loctite in the side pipe flanges - doing that first so I don't risk any drips getting into the rod opening and jamming it up! Once both those steps are done, the three cylinder pieces can get a coat of paint. After that, can start making the crank arms to actuate the four valve rods...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dan Rowe on November 26, 2021, 03:53:08 PM
Chris every time I see new photos of your work I am amazed at what you do with a Sherline. I have one with a brass bed which dates it. You get more work out of your machine in a week than all the work I have ever done with mine. :NotWorthy: :NotWorthy: :NotWorthy:

Cheers Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 26, 2021, 05:48:51 PM
Chris every time I see new photos of your work I am amazed at what you do with a Sherline. I have one with a brass bed which dates it. You get more work out of your machine in a week than all the work I have ever done with mine. :NotWorthy: :NotWorthy: :NotWorthy:

Cheers Dan
Thanks Dan! 

A brass bed on the Sherline, that IS an old one!   :old:   I remember seeing one like that at W*rk  :paranoia: years ago in the ink chem lab, they had it for making test fixture bits I think.  The brass bed ones ended in 1982, when they switched to steel. If yours is a early 1970's one, it was made in Austria.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 26, 2021, 07:51:14 PM
Loctite has set up enough to clean off the excess squeezed out, so here is a picture prior to getting some paint thrown at the assembly:
(https://i.postimg.cc/1XdCxQjS/IMG-0481.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Firebird on November 26, 2021, 07:58:07 PM
Hi Chris

 :praise2:

I am still lurking  :popcorn:

Cheers

Rich
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 26, 2021, 08:01:14 PM
Hi Chris

 :praise2:

I am still lurking  :popcorn:

Cheers

Rich
Hi Rich!
Thought I saw some eyeballs peering over that far bench!    :ROFL:   Good to have you along for the ride. Looks like the second cylinder may be ready for some run tests in another week or so.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on November 26, 2021, 08:28:30 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Flyboy Jim on November 27, 2021, 02:43:48 PM
Chris every time I see new photos of your work I am amazed at what you do with a Sherline. I have one with a brass bed which dates it. You get more work out of your machine in a week than all the work I have ever done with mine. :NotWorthy: :NotWorthy: :NotWorthy:

Cheers Dan

Not only that Dan, but we just found out the other day that our Sherlines are good for turning wood!  :lolb:

Jim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dan Rowe on November 27, 2021, 03:25:48 PM
Not only that Dan, but we just found out the other day that our Sherlines are good for turning wood!  :lolb:

Jim

I will admit to turning a bit of the brown stuff on a Sherline but what I still use my Sherline for is wax. The master patterns I make in house often start as wax. I put on my optivisor and in my head I am running a 40" lathe which is what it would scale to.  Hey when you are using  a 3.5" scale tool bit you can really take a heavy cut.  :cartwheel:

Cheers Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 27, 2021, 04:00:17 PM
Chris every time I see new photos of your work I am amazed at what you do with a Sherline. I have one with a brass bed which dates it. You get more work out of your machine in a week than all the work I have ever done with mine. :NotWorthy: :NotWorthy: :NotWorthy:

Cheers Dan

Not only that Dan, but we just found out the other day that our Sherlines are good for turning wood!  :lolb:

Jim
Hi Jim. I'll let Sam The Eagle reply to that one...
(https://i.postimg.cc/TY0gCDwX/Eagle-You-Sure-You-Want-To-Stand-There.jpg)
 :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 27, 2021, 04:02:54 PM
Not only that Dan, but we just found out the other day that our Sherlines are good for turning wood!  :lolb:

Jim

I will admit to turning a bit of the brown stuff on a Sherline but what I still use my Sherline for is wax. The master patterns I make in house often start as wax. I put on my optivisor and in my head I am running a 40" lathe which is what it would scale to.  Hey when you are using  a 3.5" scale tool bit you can really take a heavy cut.  :cartwheel:

Cheers Dan
I've noticed the same effect when working with the magnifier, after a while a 0-80 screw can start looking big. Then look around the room, and wow, all the furniture got REAL big!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 27, 2021, 04:14:12 PM
Just found a way to remove all desire to do any fiddly small work. Running in the screws that hold the IP cylinder to the engine frame. These are recessed under the base cap inside a chamber just tall enough to use tweezers to put the screws into the holes drilled in the base.
(https://i.postimg.cc/PqpDXVMt/IMG-0487.jpg)
Two very high-tech tools needed, a dental pick and Jeff Dunham's next ventriloquist dummy, Wrench - On A Stick!
(https://i.postimg.cc/PJhvMXnx/IMG-0488.jpg)
The tip of the pick is used to push down on the screw head and keep it vertical, while the little open end wrench tries to start the screw threads, one flat at a time. And tries. And tries. Finally gets it, then another 5 minutes to run the screw in the rest of the way. Yay! Wait, theres more to do.... 

Finally got them in, and set the cylinder and top cap on for a group shot
(https://i.postimg.cc/5thC65P8/IMG-0490.jpg)
Before I put the cylinder in place for real, I need to make the piston and fit it and its o ring to the cylinder. The piston rod, which bolts into the cross head so is removeable, was left long. To know where to trim it, the crankshaft was spun around to mark where the piston rod is relative to the base cap at bottom and to the cylinder top at top center. These two marks tell me where the piston head has to be between...
(https://i.postimg.cc/63CGR7Sg/IMG-0489.jpg)
Oh, and the valve rods were all installed with a little oil after painting, they are ready to go. After the piston I can start on the valve crank arms and rods.... Not today, after the fun mounting the base!  The good news is that for the LP cylinder the base is in two parts, and it overhangs the engine frames enough to have the final bolts go in from underneath to connect the base flange and the rest of the cap.

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on November 27, 2021, 04:46:12 PM
Very fine work there, Chris! (Fine in both meanings of the word :))  :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:

And that's a very cute little wrench-on-a-stick you made there!

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on November 27, 2021, 06:19:36 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Those IP bolts look like a real riot to install --- NOT---- oh well, just keep saying the mantra "model engine building is fun"  :cheers: :LittleDevil:

Speaking of a riot - I've been trying to separate a plate from a shaft today in my shop, for a machine repair. Trying to turn the shaft away under the plate. Both are hard as diamonds on steroids, over 70 Rc. Wrecked 2 carbide tips already.  :cussing: Borrowed a CBN tip from a friend to try next.  Might have to belt up a 50 hp diesel to the old South Bend to power a CBN tip.... If that doesn't work, the blue wrench is next. Can't be hard if it's liquid.  :o we shall see.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 27, 2021, 07:36:43 PM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Those IP bolts look like a real riot to install --- NOT---- oh well, just keep saying the mantra "model engine building is fun"  :cheers: :LittleDevil:

Speaking of a riot - I've been trying to separate a plate from a shaft today in my shop, for a machine repair. Trying to turn the shaft away under the plate. Both are hard as diamonds on steroids, over 70 Rc. Wrecked 2 carbide tips already.  :cussing: Borrowed a CBN tip from a friend to try next.  Might have to belt up a 50 hp diesel to the old South Bend to power a CBN tip.... If that doesn't work, the blue wrench is next. Can't be hard if it's liquid.  :o we shall see.


Just hand a shop elf a plasma cutter and stand back.  WAY back.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: mklotz on November 27, 2021, 07:47:09 PM
If I were faced with the problem of mounting those bolts I'd first touch the bolt head with a center drill to make a locator spot for the dental tool.  Then I'd wrap a few turns of thin sewing thread around the bolt.  The idea is to set the bolt in the threaded hole and keep it erect with the dental tool (as you were doing), then pull the sewing thread to (hopefully) get the threads started.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 27, 2021, 08:27:07 PM
If I were faced with the problem of mounting those bolts I'd first touch the bolt head with a center drill to make a locator spot for the dental tool.  Then I'd wrap a few turns of thin sewing thread around the bolt.  The idea is to set the bolt in the threaded hole and keep it erect with the dental tool (as you were doing), then pull the sewing thread to (hopefully) get the threads started.
Brilliant!  Got to remember that one for next time.   :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Roger B on November 28, 2021, 07:45:23 AM
I'm still following and enjoying seeing your solutions to the various problems  :praise2:  :praise2:  :wine1:  I liked your use of the 3 jaw chuck for the 'oversize' drills  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's post No. 1696
Post by: paul gough on November 28, 2021, 09:29:57 AM
Hi Chris, Been catching up with your thread and noticed you talking about the brass bed Sherline and giving Austria as its place of manufacture. This is incorrect, actually made in Australia, first by the inventor Harold Clisby and then taken over by Ron Sher, hence the name Sherline, it then passed to the current manufacturer in California who kept the name. Somewhere I saw a photo of Clisby showing Joe Martin his 2 1/2 centre height lathe but as far as I know nothing came of it. Regards, Paul Gough.
Title: Re: Chris's post No. 1696
Post by: crueby on November 28, 2021, 03:07:12 PM
Hi Chris, Been catching up with your thread and noticed you talking about the brass bed Sherline and giving Austria as its place of manufacture. This is incorrect, actually made in Australia, first by the inventor Harold Clisby and then taken over by Ron Sher, hence the name Sherline, it then passed to the current manufacturer in California who kept the name. Somewhere I saw a photo of Clisby showing Joe Martin his 2 1/2 centre height lathe but as far as I know nothing came of it. Regards, Paul Gough.
Hi Paul - you are 100% correct, I mistyped Australia and it came out Austria - my goof!  :shrug:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 28, 2021, 03:10:02 PM
I'm still following and enjoying seeing your solutions to the various problems  :praise2: :praise2: :wine1:  I liked your use of the 3 jaw chuck for the 'oversize' drills  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
I have not had to do that often, but it does work for the longer drills and taller parts, since the 3 jaw is shorter than the regular drill chuck and its adapter base, plus the drill shank can go through the chuck center hole. Just enough for that extra fraction of height!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 28, 2021, 04:35:40 PM
Yesterday afternoon got a start on the piston - trimmed the rod to length, cut in a shoulder, and threaded the end of it 10-32. The head was turned from the brass disc that I had used for holding the cylinder with the live center. It looks very thin, but at 1:32 scale it works out to 12" thick on the original, the originals used pairs of metal piston rings, I am using one viton ring. Snuck up on the groove depth till the cylinder would slide on - without any oil it was sticky, but with a little oil it is a nice slip fit. I'll run in some grease before final assembly.The head was threaded also, with a recess for a retaining nut. All assembled with high strength loctite and left overnight. This morning cut the groove.
(https://i.postimg.cc/qM4VPjfS/IMG-0491.jpg)
And assembled back on the model along with the bottom cylinder gasket, made earlier from thin viton sheet. The OD will be trimmed off with a fresh exacto knife after assembly.
(https://i.postimg.cc/L6DK2L2X/IMG-0494.jpg)
Before running in the bottom screws, I am attaching the top cap - much much easier to do those with the cylinder in hand than with the screws upside down on the model. The socket wrench can get the screws in about halfway, then the lower moulding gets in the way, and requirees finishing up with an open end wrench. Lots of times. I am running them in to just touch all the way round, then will come back and alternate sides like you do with car lug nuts to draw up the gasket compression evenly.
(https://i.postimg.cc/7ZLv6hZN/IMG-0496.jpg)
Once the top cap is all on, will add some lube to the bore and assemble it onto the base cap - that will be a longer process, having to do everything in place atop the model....
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dan Rowe on November 28, 2021, 06:12:51 PM
Chris one of the Sulzer engines I worked on had 12 0r 16 cylinder head studs. These are 100mm studs and we used the biggest impact wrench I have ever seen to take them up. The procedure was to mark one of the flats of each nut with a magic marker on the head. The giant socket had degree marks so the first time we took the nut up half a flat then to the opposite nut for half a flat. The second pass took the nut up the second half of a flat. We needed the crane to move the impact wrench safely because of how much it weighed. Good thing we did not have to use a torque wrench we would not have been strong enough to lift or work it.  :lolb:

Cheers Dan

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 28, 2021, 06:26:57 PM
Chris one of the Sulzer engines I worked on had 12 0r 16 cylinder head studs. These are 100mm studs and we used the biggest impact wrench I have ever seen to take them up. The procedure was to mark one of the flats of each nut with a magic marker on the head. The giant socket had degree marks so the first time we took the nut up half a flat then to the opposite nut for half a flat. The second pass took the nut up the second half of a flat. We needed the crane to move the impact wrench safely because of how much it weighed. Good thing we did not have to use a torque wrench we would not have been strong enough to lift or work it.  :lolb:

Cheers Dan
Long way from the tiny wrench I am holding with two fingers!!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 28, 2021, 07:16:42 PM
All the screws holding the top cap are in and tight, and the gasket trimmed back too
(https://i.postimg.cc/mrnNMLWM/IMG-0497.jpg)
So on to the bottom cap - got the cylinder greased up and six screws pushed through the flange and gasket, tightened them down a little, and set the rest of the screws in place with the socket wrench - as with the top end, the socket can only get them on partway before it hits the ring above the bottom flange.
(https://i.postimg.cc/kG3Q1T4g/IMG-0499.jpg)
One quadrant run in but not to final tightness with the open end wrench. Looks to be about how many I can do without a break to let the fingers/wrists rest.
(https://i.postimg.cc/fL07fGMP/IMG-0500.jpg)
Running the flywheel around at this stage shows the valves seel pretty well, had to tip the valves over to open position otherwise I could feel the resistance from the compression bogging it down. Thats a good sign! I have the ends of the valve rods nicked with a jewelers saw to show me the positions of the flats, that is just visible in the last photo.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: mklotz on November 28, 2021, 09:19:11 PM
I'm forced to wonder if a rubber wheel powered by a drill motor or Dremel could spin the screws most of the way in from the position where the socket hangs up.  Then do the final tightening with an open end wrench.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Admiral_dk on November 28, 2021, 09:23:07 PM
You can call it experience or laziness - but I'm sure the I would have tried to turn the crank after 4 bolts some 90 degrees apart - I have seen (many more times than I care to remember) that I have forgot a simple detail, that should have been installed first - that shows up the moment I try to see if it will work as i should  :facepalm2:

Like most of the rest here I really like the look of fresh cut 'Red-Metals', but on a model like this, it really makes a difference, that you have painted it before assembly  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 28, 2021, 09:28:40 PM
I'm forced to wonder if a rubber wheel powered by a drill motor or Dremel could spin the screws most of the way in from the position where the socket hangs up.  Then do the final tightening with an open end wrench.
Would have to be just the right hardness and diameter to squish down on the sides of the 2-56 hex but not get chewed up by them.... Hmmmm... by the time I could figure that out I'd be done with the model, though I'd have it for next time. The socket can get the screw just below the lip of the flange by tipping it some, but at that point it skips off the edges of the hex. Some variant of the pin-filled sockets they make for multiple sizes in one socket, with one side cut away and a recirculating holder for the pins. Or a mini track plate drive. Or something.  Now my head hurts.  And my Cuckoo clock just chimed in from the other room!

Could be your next invention Marv!   :stickpoke: I'd buy one.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 28, 2021, 09:31:14 PM
You can call it experience or laziness - but I'm sure the I would have tried to turn the crank after 4 bolts some 90 degrees apart - I have seen (many more times than I care to remember) that I have forgot a simple detail, that should have been installed first - that shows up the moment I try to see if it will work as i should  :facepalm2:

Like most of the rest here I really like the look of fresh cut 'Red-Metals', but on a model like this, it really makes a difference, that you have painted it before assembly  :ThumbsUp:
I did turn the crankshaft just holding it in place with no screws in, and again after the first six, just to make sure it didn't want to shift sideways from the piston movement - that all was fine so I ran more in. After that, it was enough to hold pressure too.

And yes, before starting any I sat there for a while wondering what framistat or gizmotron needed to be put in first! So far I haven't thought of any, so I'm hoping! 


And I have not heard any shop elves screaming to get out from inside. Gotta go to their break room and count them...!

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 29, 2021, 06:40:54 PM
Today is plumbing day on the Holly engine
(https://i.postimg.cc/Bb0TZf6H/IMG-0501.jpg)
Making up the piping to go from the exhausts of the first two cylinders and the inlet to the middle cylinder. Have some bits started for the LP, but wont finish those till it is made.
The valves in the pictures are for the inlet to the IP and LP cylinders - since I am running this engine in 'simple' mode without using the compound action (only running on compressed air, if I ever get a boiler suitable for steam running it, and can lift the engine to get it outside for that, I can replace a few of the piping bits) the input air will be sent to all three cylinders. The extra two needle valves will be used to balance the power output from each, which will be different with the different piston diameters. This extra piping will be hidden in the receiver tanks, yet to be made.
So, when the piping is complete, next up will be to make the crank arms for the IP valves. The eccentric followers were made a while back at the same time as the ones for the HP cylinder, since they are all the same.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on November 29, 2021, 08:53:24 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Be sure to engrave "FECIT PLUMBUS MAXIMUS" on a pipe where it won't be seen inside the receiver - so the archaeologists of the future can tell which ancient Roman plumber did the pipework..... :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on November 29, 2021, 09:11:06 PM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Be sure to engrave "FECIT PLUMBUS MAXIMUS" on a pipe where it won't be seen inside the receiver - so the archaeologists of the future can tell which ancient Roman plumber did the pipework..... :Lol:
Fecit buttcracus maximus...   :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 01, 2021, 03:11:55 PM
Been a busy couple days of pipefitting on the model. I've gotten steam run to both cylinders now, with a needle valve inline on the feed to the IP cylinder to balance the air for non-compound running:
(https://i.postimg.cc/brfzkcwL/IMG-0502.jpg)
Also have the exhaust lines from both cylinders connected up
(https://i.postimg.cc/XN9N3JsP/IMG-0504.jpg)
The final soldering for the IP cylinder exhaust will be done after I've gotten that cylinder running, so I can tell which outlet the air is coming from while timing the top/bottom valves.
Also, yesterday I took the 3D CAD version of the HP/IP receiver tank and split it into four sections - front/back to let it fit over the pipes, and top/bottom since it meant quicker print times not having to print the support material for the top flanges. Here is the bottom front piece held up where it will go - the tank will hide most of the piping from view from the front.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZnPJL79m/IMG-0503.jpg)
There are also top/bottom caps for the tank, just epoxied the front halves to their respective lids. After that has cured up, and some paint sprayed on the outside, the tank can be fit into place. Will wait till the two cylinders are running and the valves tuned to put the tank on for good.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on December 01, 2021, 03:53:09 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steam guy willy on December 01, 2021, 04:16:56 PM
Hi Chris this is looking so good ..masterfull.. lovely ....   :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

Willy
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Roger B on December 01, 2021, 05:38:38 PM
Splendid  :praise2:  :praise2:  :wine1:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 01, 2021, 06:16:59 PM
Thanks guys!   :cheers:
Got some paint drying on the receiver tank parts, guess its time to start in on the crank arms and connector bits for the IP cylinder and see if it all works. The IP has the same setup as the HP did, when I get to the LP cylinder it will get interesting since the exhaust valves there are poppets rather than rotary. Never tried poppet valves before, so that should be a nice change!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on December 01, 2021, 06:21:59 PM
I'm finding it fascinating how you're using printed parts in conjunction with the machined parts to make this model.  Pretty cool.  :popcorn:

Are you going to paint the pipework too?  Or leave that copper?

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 01, 2021, 06:36:42 PM
I'm finding it fascinating how you're using printed parts in conjunction with the machined parts to make this model.  Pretty cool.  :popcorn:

Are you going to paint the pipework too?  Or leave that copper?

Kim
Hi Kim,
Yeah, for big hollow parts like that which are just 'decorative' and not taking pressure, it seemed like the way to go. Did the same last spring for the housings for the pump valves (metal valves inside for functionality) - those housings and the big Y pipes would have been possible but difficult to do from metal.
The pipes will be painted - early on I found two colors of Velejo paints that I had that when mixed 70/30 gave a good match for the spray paint I'm using, handy for touchups and for small parts like the pipes/flanges, and it saves taking them off the model one more time, just brush on. On the real engine all the pipework was wrapped in insulation, and all the cylinders and such were covered in big flat panels stuffed with insulation (see photo in first post of the thread) that makes them look like an apartment block - I am leaving all that insulation and cladding off. At least on the front, might put it on the back side and cut it away for the front, I just can't bear to cover up all the cylinders!
Chris
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 01, 2021, 06:49:24 PM
The tank parts are dry enough to handle, so here is a shot of the front side parts held in place on the model - after the paint cures more I'll glue/fair the top/bottom halves together, and figure out a way to run screws in to hold the back halves on. The back halves need to snake in around the pipes so they will need to be kept as separate bits. I am thinking of a single screw each from back to front into a block inside the front halves, so that its possible to remove the tank if need be.
(https://i.postimg.cc/SRvSt2SQ/IMG-0505.jpg)
The tank between the IP/LP cylinders is a similar diameter, but it is made up with a straight section in the middle so its an oblong shape, wider front to back than this one. Will do a similar setup for that later on.
On the Holly engine the plans did not show any re-heating steam coils inside, though its possible those were added later on when the condensor was added on the final exhaust. The Allis engine plans show the coils in each tank, fed from a smaller steam line from the main input pipe. The Cincinatti engines also had them, pretty good bet they were added to these Holly ones at some point. I've been in touch with the historian down in Cincinatti, he has a set of plans for the seven Holly engines that once were in one of the pump stations there. Those engines are ten years earlier than the Buffalo ones. I am going down there in May for a tour, and he is going to let me look at the plans they have (they have not scanned them yet, still 'just' the paper originals. Should be very interesting to see how many differences there were over the ten years between the stations being built!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 02, 2021, 06:29:12 PM
The receiver tank now has screw blocks and threaded rod out the back to hold the halves together. Also started nibbling another set of crank arms out of a longer bar for the IP valve rod ends.
(https://i.postimg.cc/26Mp91Mw/IMG-0506.jpg)
After these, need to make up another two with double connections on one side for the center pivots...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 02, 2021, 08:09:27 PM
upper/lower cranks in place...
(https://i.postimg.cc/nc7kDXkJ/IMG-0507.jpg)
Will start on the center cranks tomorrow, there is a LOT of gusty wind today and the power blips out once in a while... Might be some flash-fried tree rats out there!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on December 02, 2021, 08:47:44 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on December 02, 2021, 09:17:04 PM
Man... you just make it look easy, Chris!   :popcorn:
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 03, 2021, 05:00:36 PM
Got the pair of center cranks nibbled out of some flat bar stock...
(https://i.postimg.cc/d3qBdy21/IMG-0508.jpg)

Next step will be to make the connector rods between the cranks and between the center cranks and the eccentric followers. May not get to that today, time to make up some Christmas cookie dough...   :stir:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on December 03, 2021, 08:02:30 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: doh!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 03, 2021, 08:10:49 PM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: doh!
:Lol:

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 04, 2021, 06:41:11 PM
So, yesterday I got the links between the valve cranks on the IP cylinder made
(https://i.postimg.cc/FHbFT4Zk/IMG-0509.jpg)
and this morning made up the links from the cranks down to the eccentric followers. Then came lots of working on the timing. With the flats on BOTH sides of the valve rods this time, I did not have the binding issues, but it introduced a different wrinkle. When figuring out the timing, I had made marks on the ends of the rods so I could see the movements and know how much I was advancing/retarding the cranks, but now the starting point was TWO possible places, since there are two corners where a flat can open to the ports. When I first set the timing two of the rods were about 90 degrees out - the valve was opening and closing, but backwards to the timing.   :wallbang:   I was assuming that I could copy the relative positions from the HP cylinder and its crank to the IP cylinder. Which works, as long as the starting point is the same...

Okay, that came out very confusing in words, but that matches how confusing it was on the model!

Bottom line, I got the orientation of the valve rods sorted out by removing the exhaust valve rods, and cycling things through by hand under very low pressure, to sort out the open/close positions of the valves and eccentrics. Then put the exhaust rods back in, got them sorted out by looking through the exhaust port (glad I had not fixed the exhaust piping on that side yet).


And... it started to run!   :pinkelephant: :pinkelephant: :pinkelephant: (hmmm, does Surus get a royalty every time we use that icon? ) 

Quickly grabbed the camera:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awyV5_HDcic
As you can see/hear, the timing is still a little off, causing it to speed up/slow down through the cycle - at first glance the exhaust valve on the bottom end is not opening quick enough and it is back-pressuring the piston a little. Probably several things need a tweak, but that can wait till later - going to bask in the fact that it is powering on both cylinders now.
 :whoohoo:    :cartwheel:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RReid on December 04, 2021, 07:06:21 PM
Congratulations Chris; that's a really big milestone! You've earned both a beer and a Christmas cookie! :DrinkPint:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 04, 2021, 07:10:31 PM
Congratulations Chris; that's a really big milestone! You've earned both a beer and a Christmas cookie! :DrinkPint:
Yum!  Hope I get another when the timing is adjusted...   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on December 04, 2021, 07:55:14 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Wow! great looking run on two pots! It may schmooth out on its' own a bit with the third pot pushing. Congratulations! Here's some virtual Navy rum for your egg nog, to go with the cookies ------->
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dan Rowe on December 04, 2021, 09:44:30 PM
Nice work two down then the big one. This is really exciting to watch.  :popcorn:

Cheers Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Admiral_dk on December 04, 2021, 10:07:45 PM
Great to see that all your amazing work pays off first time  :praise2:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on December 04, 2021, 10:46:57 PM
Well done!  Running on 2 cylinders!  That is a big milestone  :cheers:

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 04, 2021, 10:54:29 PM
Thanks all! No more timing tweaks yet, doing holiday prep activities. I did look at the plan sheets for the LP cylinder, at first I thought it printed wrong, it looked too short. Just an illusion, its so much wider!


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Craig DeShong on December 05, 2021, 12:01:15 AM
Woo Hoo!!! 

I’ll drink one with you  :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 05, 2021, 12:10:11 AM
Woo Hoo!!! 

I’ll drink one with you  :cheers:


Uuuurrrpppp!   :DrinkPint:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Roger B on December 05, 2021, 08:21:02 AM
Splendid  :praise2:  :praise2:  :wine1:

I do like to watch all the complicated steam engine valve gear moving  :)  :)  :)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Firebird on December 05, 2021, 09:01:48 AM
Hi Chris

Superb   :praise2: :cheers:

Cheers

Rich
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: PJPickard on December 05, 2021, 12:32:13 PM
That is really something!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 05, 2021, 02:53:53 PM
Thanks guys - this morning I went back to watch it run some more (it is a bit mesmerizing) and did some tweaks on the valves. The exhaust timing turned out to be fine, it was one inlet valve on each cylinder that needed to be turned a few degrees relative to the crank arm that got it running smoother. Also, I think CNR is right about the third cylinder smoothing it out some more when it is online, As it was running I pushed/pulled on the LP crosshead at the appropriate times, and it does even out the surging more, when the other two are near the ends of thier strokes.
So, here is a new video of it running a bit better, it does run slower now, should be even more so when the LP cylinder is made.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqZpls-HsNE
After making the video I realized that I had not put the IP exhaust pipe assembly in place yet, have done that now, still runs the same!
So, on to the LP cylinder assembly. The larger 4" faceplate I had ordered is here and waiting to hold the LP parts (the 3" faceplate is the same size as the bore, so that one won't work). I had been thinking of making the top/bottom caps from some thick aluminum bar stock that I have, but I had the idea of taking the cored bronze that the cylinders are made from and putting a plug in the center to make a solid disk. Probably will go that route, I much prefer machining brass and bronze to aluminum (as I am sure you have noticed during this build! ).

The inlet valve on the LP is also a corliss rotary valve, but the exhaust valves are poppets, that will be a new thing for me, have not made any of those before. Should be fun!
Thanks to all those following along.   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steam guy willy on December 05, 2021, 05:47:09 PM
Hi Chris , so nice to see it running ...lovely..impressive ...

Willy
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on December 05, 2021, 06:27:36 PM
Hello Chris,

Boy that thing running is absolutely poetry in motion and a work of art.
 :ThumbsUp:

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Jo on December 05, 2021, 08:18:47 PM
Wow  8)

Jo
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: wagnmkr on December 05, 2021, 08:23:26 PM
Seeing that run must give you just an overwhelming sense of accomplishment, particularly when you did it on machines that are only good for wood! :stir:

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 05, 2021, 08:28:06 PM

Thanks guys!

On to the parts for the LP cylinder. But first, need to mod the 4" faceplate I picked up to hold them. These faceplates are made for woodworking lathes that happen to have the same spindle thread as the Sherline, very handy and fairly cheap. The only thing is that the wood lathes must have more overhang out to the threads, since these faceplates have a non-threaded section before they next down to the threads.

(https://i.postimg.cc/rwCyXVNT/IMG-0519.jpg)
Easily fixed - screw them onto the lathe spindle backwards, with the face facing in, and turn off the extra:
(https://i.postimg.cc/BbrZstzS/IMG-0520.jpg)
followed by a check of the face surface, out just a little, so I took a skim cut down the face to true it up:
(https://i.postimg.cc/t4HRMZPD/IMG-0521.jpg)
Here are the pieces of the hollow-core bronze that I cut off the longer bar (same piece as used for the IP cylinder). The two thinner 'donuts' will be the top/bottom cap/valve pieces. I'll turn the inside bore smooth with a step, and fit a plug. Cheaper by far - its stock I have on hand, and I have some offcut round bar that will fit the bore.
(https://i.postimg.cc/9fLW0LkN/IMG-0522.jpg)
So the next step is to drill hole for the screws to mount the pieces to the faceplate. Here is the only time that I am holding these rough cut pieces in the 3-jaw - need to get them centered well enough to drill the screw holes.
(https://i.postimg.cc/YSrrt5dW/IMG-0523.jpg)
As you can see, the stock is larger diameter than the chuck! Also, the inside surface is very rough on this stuff:
(https://i.postimg.cc/MZNp1rpC/IMG-0525.jpg)
I couldn't quite get the ID over the chuck jaws when they are reversed, so had to use them in normal orientation which means a very shallow step holding a heavy chunk of metal. It took a few tries, rotating the bar and tightening to check till I found a spot where it ran nearly true. Given this is not very secure, I ran the lathe at low speed to check!
Then over to the rotary table to drill the screw holes. These holes are inside where the bore will be, so these holes will be turned off later. For now, they will hold the stock for initial turning of the ID and finish turning of the outside.
(https://i.postimg.cc/4NcNPbKm/IMG-0526.jpg)
The position of these holes was laid out so that they will fall between the valve holes on the caps - they are not evenly spaced at 45 degrees though. To miss all the valve holes, they are spaced at alternating 40 and 50 degree intervals. All three bars were drilled the same and will be tapped. The faceplate gets the same spacing but with close fit clearance holes.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 05, 2021, 08:30:44 PM
Seeing that run must give you just an overwhelming sense of accomplishment, particularly when you did it on machines that are only good for wood! :stir:
I'll let the Shop Elves' pet eagle answer the second part of that one!    :LittleDevil:
(https://i.postimg.cc/dVq30Z13/Eagle-Middle-Claw.jpg)
 :lolb:
It is amazing to consider that this model when finished will wiegh more than the lathe, mill, and workbench combined!
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 05, 2021, 09:22:08 PM
Chris--I still check into what you're doing every day. Your project looks and runs fabulous. Congratulations on a great project.---Brian
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 05, 2021, 09:44:05 PM
Chris--I still check into what you're doing every day. Your project looks and runs fabulous. Congratulations on a great project.---Brian
Thanks Brian!  One of these days watching your builds will convince me to finally try an IC engine build. Still a few more steamers in the queue for now!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: wagnmkr on December 05, 2021, 09:46:43 PM
Chris, what do you estimate the weight will be ... 200 or so lbs?
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 05, 2021, 09:56:18 PM
Chris, what do you estimate the weight will be ... 200 or so lbs?
Not too sure, but I doubt it will top 125. The last cylinder is just going to add a few pounds, and after that there are the catwalks and misc trim pieces. There are lots of brackets for the catwalks, but they are thin, and the floors will be aluminum sheet. Ladders and railings wont add much. Last I wieghed it was before the first cylinder I think - at that point it was just over 100 near as I could tell when weighing one end at a time. The biggest thing when done will be moving it without damaging the catwalks, which will stick out from the engine frames a couple inches, and there are three levels of them. I intentionally made the base with tall feet at the corners so fingers will fit under the base frame. It will definitely be a two-person operation, more for balance and holding it out - if there were no catwalks it could be rested back against my body to move, and could be lifted by the engine beds at the crankshaft level. With the walkways, thats not possible.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Don1966 on December 06, 2021, 04:40:49 AM
Damn Dog you just amaze me. Loved the video nice and smooth and did I say ……..I………….likeeeeeee…. :Love:



 :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: ShopShoe on December 06, 2021, 01:33:16 PM
Looks like you need to design and build a steam forklift for moving that.

ShopShoe
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 06, 2021, 01:59:44 PM
Looks like you need to design and build a steam forklift for moving that.

ShopShoe
Great idea. Someone must have made one somewhere.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on December 06, 2021, 05:53:53 PM
I remember seeing a couple of pictures of a 19th century steam forklift in either Live Steam magazine or Model Engineer magazine, sometime in the eighties or early nineties. Maybe someone with an index to these mags could have a look. I remember it had heavy wooden wheels and a rear water tank for stability. It was cable operated, basically a two cylinder steam winch (like your Marion engine hint hint) on a mobile frame. I don't think it had any drive to the wheels, I believe it was pushed manually into position after picking up a load, and for unloading. That could be project 228, after finishing project 227 in 2085.  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 06, 2021, 06:36:22 PM
I remember seeing a couple of pictures of a 19th century steam forklift in either Live Steam magazine or Model Engineer magazine, sometime in the eighties or early nineties. Maybe someone with an index to these mags could have a look. I remember it had heavy wooden wheels and a rear water tank for stability. It was cable operated, basically a two cylinder steam winch (like your Marion engine hint hint) on a mobile frame. I don't think it had any drive to the wheels, I believe it was pushed manually into position after picking up a load, and for unloading. That could be project 228, after finishing project 227 in 2085.  :Lol:
Hmmm, think I'm booked through at least 2143....!   :Lol:

Did some searches, and it turns out the Dake made square-cylinder steam engines, and at least once a forklift was made with one. Check out this page, about halfway down is a picture of one rusting away outside:
http://www.douglas-self.com/MUSEUM/POWER/squarepiston/square.htm
Also found that an article was in Live Steam, 2005, by Peter Bouley. Here is a link to a page, halfway down is pictures from the article:
https://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/antique-machinery-and-history/steam-powered-forklift-383822/
Yup, could be on the future projects list...!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 06, 2021, 06:40:49 PM
Hah!   Turns out that model plans genius Julius de Waal has done plans for the Dake engine!! 

https://modelengineeringwebsite.com/Dake_steam_engine.html
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 06, 2021, 06:55:28 PM
Wouldn't you know it - Stew Hart built one (may be others on the forum, have not looked yet)
https://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php?topic=440.0
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 06, 2021, 07:24:01 PM
So, back on the Holly model this morning. Got the holes all drilled/tapped in the LP cylinder part blanks and the faceplate done yesterday, so today started with facing and boring the top/bottom cap blanks. As mentioned earlier, I am using up some of the leftover hollow-core bronze bar from the cylinders for the LP caps by adding a plug to the center to turn them into full discs. The plug material was also an offcut, so the caps are basically 'free'. I was going to turn a straight bore with a lip, but realized that a taper fit with a 2 or 3 degree taper angle would be very secure, with the wider end at the inside of the cylinder so the pressure would just tighten them more. Set up the caps on the faceplate, trimmed the outsides, and used the compound slide to put a shallow angle on the bore.
(https://i.postimg.cc/L551TQPw/IMG-0527.jpg)
Without changing the compound slide settings, also turned a matching taper on the plug material
(https://i.postimg.cc/QxRTQbdY/IMG-0528.jpg)
Test fit the caps till they went onto the plugs far enough - the caps are left a little thick at this point, so the plug does not need to go all the way through.
(https://i.postimg.cc/wx4JvH8p/IMG-0529.jpg)
That left me with two caps with plugs that look like this:
(https://i.postimg.cc/br52F0HJ/IMG-0530.jpg)
I inserted the plugs with some Loctite 638 (green), cleaned off the squeeze-out, and set them aside to cure up. Tomorrow I'll put in a couple of pins for good measure - belts, suspenders, staples, and glue...!
Then put the cylinder blank on the faceplate, ready for shaping the outside and initial boring on the inside. This will all follow the same procedure done on the first two cylinders, just much bigger diameters....
(https://i.postimg.cc/WbDZqKTJ/IMG-0531.jpg)
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on December 06, 2021, 07:48:04 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: scc on December 06, 2021, 09:49:21 PM
 :praise2: :praise2: :popcorn: :popcorn: :cheers: (still lost for words)       Terry
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 07, 2021, 04:32:08 PM
Thanks CNR/Terry! 

Terry, as long as you don't use the words I save for the telemarketers that keep calling during my shop time!   :LittleDevil:   Only funny part is when thier auto-magic recording systems are mucked up and it starts out with 'goodbye' or the ding-a-ling drops the handset.   :insane:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 07, 2021, 04:35:44 PM
This morning got a start on turning the LP cylinder. Started with getting the outside to shape, using a block in the bore to support with the tailstock. Its held securely with the faceplace screws, but this keeps the resonance ringing from starting.

(https://i.postimg.cc/15xpbj4S/IMG-0533.jpg)
Then switched to opening up the inside bore. Like with the other two cylinders, I'll take it out close to the final bore, but leave the finish boring till after the silver soldering of the outside valve bosses is done.
(https://i.postimg.cc/xTKKQ3bz/IMG-0535.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dan Rowe on December 07, 2021, 04:41:40 PM
Chris, is there not some rule to never turn something larger than your head stock??  :Jester:
I guess I got that wrong. :facepalm:

Nice as always. :popcorn:

Cheers Dan

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on December 07, 2021, 04:42:19 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Maybe you should make a second LP cylinder and use it for a mixed nuts bowl! it's purty, and big enough too!  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 07, 2021, 04:47:07 PM
Dan, if that was the case I'd have to un-make my last several projects!!  Maybe the rule should be no parts heavier than the lathe?   :thinking:

I think the largest diameter I've turned on the Sherline were 8" flywheels, had to turn the headstock 90 degrees to let the parts hang off the back. Took a while for them to stop when the motor was turned off! 


CNR, when in the middle of turning the bore on this one, I was thinking it would make a good model of an early mortar, but then the shop elves would try bombing squirrels in the neighbors yard. Again. Still have to keep the black powder locked up...   :facepalm2:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: propforward on December 07, 2021, 05:00:10 PM
Well, I guess if you ever need / want to you are clearly demonstrating that you can just machine a bigger lathe.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on December 07, 2021, 08:27:49 PM
"CNR, when in the middle of turning the bore on this one, I was thinking it would make a good model of an early mortar, but then the shop elves would try bombing squirrels in the neighbors yard. Again. Still have to keep the black powder locked up...   :facepalm2:"

Probably not a bad plan re the black powder being locked up, the gasoline as well, with the shenanigans of the shop elves from time to time.....  :o :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steamboatmodel on December 08, 2021, 01:15:21 AM
"CNR, when in the middle of turning the bore on this one, I was thinking it would make a good model of an early mortar, but then the shop elves would try bombing squirrels in the neighbors yard. Again. Still have to keep the black powder locked up...   :facepalm2:"

Probably not a bad plan re the black powder being locked up, the gasoline as well, with the shenanigans of the shop elves from time to time.....  :o :Lol:
Check the labels on any cans that have a propellent in them, I found out that hair spray some cooking oil and the caned air brush propellent all contain butane, great of you are making Potato Cannons, but bad news with shop elves.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 08, 2021, 02:09:15 AM
"CNR, when in the middle of turning the bore on this one, I was thinking it would make a good model of an early mortar, but then the shop elves would try bombing squirrels in the neighbors yard. Again. Still have to keep the black powder locked up...   :facepalm2: "

Probably not a bad plan re the black powder being locked up, the gasoline as well, with the shenanigans of the shop elves from time to time.....  :o :Lol:
Check the labels on any cans that have a propellent in them, I found out that hair spray some cooking oil and the caned air brush propellent all contain butane, great of you are making Potato Cannons, but bad news with shop elves.
They don't want people to know, but shop elves fit in potato cannons...   :LittleDevil:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on December 08, 2021, 12:51:06 PM
Maybe that was why so many of the shop elves used the phrase " a high calibre worker" on their resumes...... :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 08, 2021, 02:32:40 PM
The cylinder has been taken out close to final ID, so it is ready to solder on the bosses for the cranks on the outside. After that, will turn to final inside diameter and drill the holes around the bottom mounting flange. A couple of really cold days right now, but its supposed to get back up to the 60s by the weekend, better outside soldering temperatures. That will give me time to get the bosses made and maybe start on the valve tubes.

(https://i.postimg.cc/6png7fWK/IMG-0538.jpg)
Also turned the outside shape of the top/bottom caps
(https://i.postimg.cc/vmvKh8xS/IMG-0539.jpg)
which makes for a pretty good pile of parts
(https://i.postimg.cc/rpTb5Rsr/IMG-0541.jpg)
The caps are left thick for now, which gives room for the screws holding them to the faceplate. After the mounting holes are drilled around the flanges, will do matching holes in the faceplate so the caps can be turned over and taken to thickness and shape. Need to remember to drill for the valve tubes first...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dan Rowe on December 08, 2021, 11:48:39 PM
Looking good Chris,  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: did that have a tendency to ring on the final cuts? This one is going to need a whole bunch of studs......

 :cheers:
Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 09, 2021, 12:34:05 AM
Looking good Chris,  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: did that have a tendency to ring on the final cuts? This one is going to need a whole bunch of studs......

 :cheers:
Dan
When boring out the inside I had to play with the speed a little to get it not to ring. When sitting on the bench it rings like a bell when tapped.

And thanks for reminding me of how many screws this one will take....   :insane:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on December 09, 2021, 02:26:00 AM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:  :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Re screws - I wouldn't bother counting. Just keep making them until you have half an IP cylinder full of them - that'll probably be just enough.  :o  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 09, 2021, 03:18:31 PM
Made up the bosses for the side of the LP cylinder, same jig as with the other two cylinders, though only one pair is needed on this one.

(https://i.postimg.cc/nVYrZwwJ/IMG-0542.jpg)
The difference in spacing meant making up a new holder for soldering on the bosses:
(https://i.postimg.cc/PrSqvvjV/IMG-0543.jpg)
The weather today and tomorrow is quite cold, but its supposed to warm up into the 60s on Saturday, so I'll wait till then to go outside and do the soldering. In the meantime, I've started drilling out the holes for the inlet valve tubes in the caps.
(https://i.postimg.cc/jdx5jQGJ/IMG-0544.jpg)
Also will drill the cross holes from the sides into the valve tube passage. The exhaust valves are poppet style, going to leave those un-drilled for now, I need to spend a little time with the plans to work out how they will be made. Most likely will make up a seat/valve/rocker subassembly for them, similar to how the original was, but need to work out any dimension changes since they are scaled down so much. Would rather figure that out in Fusion than making and remaking parts!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on December 09, 2021, 05:29:33 PM
Getting good use out of your jigs there, Chris!   :popcorn:

Kim

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on December 09, 2021, 07:56:28 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 10, 2021, 04:20:42 PM
And got the last of the valve tubes/rods made, this pair for the LP cylinder:
(https://i.postimg.cc/CLyQ2xbx/IMG-0545.jpg)
I've been playing around with the plans for the poppet valves on the original engine, modelling them up in detail in Fusion. Now I understand how they work, and think I've got a mental picture of how to make them for the model. As with the Corliss valves, the poppet valves need to be simplified somewhat to be makeable at this small scale, but the general shapes will remain. There are two exhaust poppet valves for each cap, so I need to make four in all. They look and function just like the valves in a typical IC engine, with a tapered valve seat, wide valve disc, and a stem rod with a rocker up top. Will put up pictures as they develop... (flashback to the old darkroom days there!)
The weather is going to be near 50 today, so may get out and get the cylinder bushings silver soldered on, tomorrow will be warmer but quite windy.

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 10, 2021, 07:38:59 PM
Got warm enough this afternoon to get the bosses soldered on outside, letting the cylinder cool before it takes a bath in the pickle solution. It might be the last silver soldering of the project.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 10, 2021, 08:16:59 PM
While waiting on the cooling/pickling on the cylinder, the elves got bored and set up for drilling the mounting holes in the cap flanges. It worked out to 48 screws per flange. Lots, but at least on this one the flange is wide enough that the socket wrench looks like it will fit over the screw heads. That will make it a LOT quicker to bolt everything up. Again using the roll-form taps, which are also quick to run in out since no dealing with chips.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Bvsr8Qmv/IMG-0546.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dan Rowe on December 10, 2021, 08:43:42 PM
Form taps are the way to go with small work I can not remember the last time I used a cutting tap. The 1mm form tap I just used worked like a champ way better than the tiny drill. I have to upgrade to quality stub drills for making square nuts.

 :DrinkPint: it is Friday and almost beer-thirty here.

Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 10, 2021, 08:50:05 PM
Form taps are the way to go with small work I can not remember the last time I used a cutting tap. The 1mm form tap I just used worked like a champ way better than the tiny drill. I have to upgrade to quality stub drills for making square nuts.

 :DrinkPint: it is Friday and almost beer-thirty here.

Dan
I'm sold on them for the small stuff, have not tried one larger than 2-56 yet, but will pick up some soon. They have brought 0-80 back to practical again!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 11, 2021, 03:12:26 PM
The end cap holes are all drilled, need to be tapped still.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Rh9HY0x2/IMG-0546a.jpg)
After yesterdays soldering and cleanup, this morning got the cylinder bored out to final ID and took a trueing pass on the end. That end is the base, so doing them in the same setup ensures that the bore and the base flange are perpendicular to each other.
(https://i.postimg.cc/3NBvQHKN/IMG-0548.jpg)
then moved the faceplate and part back to the mill, which was still in same place from drilling the mounting holes in the caps, and drilled matching holes in the bottom of the cylinder. These holes are clearance sized.

(https://i.postimg.cc/ZqG3rc7b/IMG-0549.jpg)
Then removed the cylinder from the faceplate and have spot drilled for matching holes in the faceplate. These will be used to hold the caps and cylinder for the remaining operations - turning off the excess on the top of the cylinder, drilling the holes there, then turning off the outer ends of the caps. Since the caps are tapped and the cylinder clearance drilled, I'm going to drill/tap every other hole in the faceplate, and clearance drill the other half of them. That way I can put 24 screws in each part to hold them.
(https://i.postimg.cc/508zpCTw/IMG-0550.jpg)
It will be interesting to see if the power goes out this afternoon, they are expecting 60mph wind gusts from the big front moving across the country - at least we are not in the zone for tornadoes that they are getting down through the central part of the country. Tomorrow we have our next submarine run at the Y pool, so I'm getting the batteries charged up now in case the power drops for a while this afternoon.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 11, 2021, 05:44:58 PM
Got the holes in the faceplate all drilled, then drilled the holes in the gasket material, clamped between two bits of thin plywood:
(https://i.postimg.cc/CLdhgfsY/IMG-0551.jpg)
Next up is tapping a lot of holes, time to get out the tapping stand. Then I can bolt the cylinder to the faceplate finished-end-down and trim off the excess on the top edge and get those holes drilled. The gaskets were cut out on the inside, the outside edges will be trimmed after they are assembled - when squeezed in place its easy to run a sharp knife around and trim it off flush.

(https://i.postimg.cc/1Rvm2K6J/IMG-0552.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 12, 2021, 01:04:32 PM
Yup - that storm did knock out power here yesterday at 4pm, and the local power company leapt into in-action as usual, got the power back on by 3:30am this morning! I don't know where the lines/poles/trees were down, or how many, but it took out this whole side of town. Glad I have a generator to keep the furnace/fridge/lights on at least!


Time for another nap....
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on December 12, 2021, 05:24:59 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Lots of trees down here, as well, it was a big blow, for sure. Glad to hear the power's back on. Now you can have a power nap!  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 12, 2021, 07:54:10 PM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Lots of trees down here, as well, it was a big blow, for sure. Glad to hear the power's back on. Now you can have a power nap!  :Lol:
:facepalm2:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 12, 2021, 08:05:54 PM
After some more naps (not much sleep last night with the storms and generator tending) got the end of the cylinder trimmed off and shaped:
(https://i.postimg.cc/pXqwG6LR/IMG-0553.jpg)
and moved over to the rotary table to drill the final set of flange holes
(https://i.postimg.cc/rpt7pyCw/IMG-0554.jpg)
That finishes up the cylinder itself. Now on to the top/bottom caps. Got the top cap bolted onto the faceplate - the holes in the caps are threaded, so the screws came in from the back of the faceplate in every other hole, which were drilled as clearance fit
(https://i.postimg.cc/GmtZZx4Y/IMG-0557.jpg)
That got the top shaped down to the dome shape. It still needs to have the vertical exhaust valve hole bored through the top, and this shaping showed that the mounting holes I used for the faceplate were just a little deep, leaving the dimples. Most of that will be cut back when the grid shape ribs are cut in, but in case any are still there I filled them with jbweld epoxy.
(https://i.postimg.cc/x1ZWYNmZ/IMG-0558.jpg)
Next up is the base cap. It has a flat bottom, no dome, and is a little thinner. It will get the piston rod and gland holes bored through,  and will need to be fitted with the feet that connect to the top of the engine frames, as well as having the exhaust valve holes bored through. Lots to do yet on the caps! Oh yeah, and the exhaust passages and pipe flanges too. And the inlet passages.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on December 12, 2021, 10:49:50 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on December 13, 2021, 05:06:46 AM
Chris

I understand you would have left the barrels cool naturally after the silver soldering of the linkage bushings to the barrels outer diameters .....so did this soldering heat create any heat affected zones  :killcomputer: [soft spots when skimming the final bore sizes?].......

Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 13, 2021, 02:32:27 PM
Chris

I understand you would have left the barrels cool naturally after the silver soldering of the linkage bushings to the barrels outer diameters .....so did this soldering heat create any heat affected zones  :killcomputer: [soft spots when skimming the final bore sizes?].......

Derek
Not that I could tell. It turned evenly all the way down.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Don1966 on December 13, 2021, 05:37:31 PM
 :Love:


 :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 13, 2021, 06:05:12 PM
:Love:


 :drinking-41:
Don
:wine1:    :drinking-41:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 13, 2021, 09:37:50 PM
This afternoon I got the two valve caps trimmed to final thickness, then started playing around in Fusion to work up a model-sized valve cage for the exhaust popet valves (think I am using the right term there? let me know if not! ). The cage assemblies need to fit the space and the throws from the eccentrics - the scaled down plan dimesions from the original work for that. The fine details need to be adjusted though, to fit the fasteners and wall thicknesses that are practical and sturdy enough, the 1:32 version of the original parts is way too delicate to be functional. So, here is what I have come up with so far - functionality matches the original, as do the general shapes, but thicknesses, bearing surfaces and mounting flanges are bigger.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sXkyYpWF/Valve-Cage-CAD.jpg)
The shapes of the upper supports (orange and blue) are just there to figure out the function, I'll make them with more curves and such to look more like the originals. The original depended on weight of the valve stem/disc (the disc was about 24" across) to pull it down on the bottom cap (where the whole thing is upside down from the picture) and used a weight on a lever for the top end ones.
For the model, I'm adding a spring between the bearing (yellow) and the disc on the upper valve stem (which is screw adjustable).  The two crank arms are there on the front valves only, the rear valves just have the short crank arm. The long one takes the motion from the eccentric and moves the cam (red) to push the valve open. The short arms are connected, so that the front and rear valves work together - there are two exhaust valves per cylinder cap.

That seemed plausible to me, but I wanted to make sure it would all fit the space on the model, since the lower ones are under the cap, inside the frames, and above the crosshead - better to be sure it all fits before boring big holes in the caps! So, I dug out the 3D printer and made up a sample set, using metal parts for the rods and screws.
(https://i.postimg.cc/nzjp9dCY/IMG-0559.jpg)
When the crank is moved, the cam pushes down on the nut, shown by the red arrow, down against the closing spring below it. In the next picture, the red arrow shows the bottom of the valve stem/disc opening up - the disc needs to be positioned so that it does not go down into the cylinder chamber and risk a valve crash.
(https://i.postimg.cc/KYsmzXv8/IMG-0560.jpg)
Held that up in place by the frames and the caps, and it all looks okay - I might make the cage walls a little smaller diameter to give more clearance to the frames.  The cage will fit down into a hole bored through the caps, with a small shelf at the bottom of the hole so I can use some gasket goop top and bottom for a good seal. The valve disc and its seat on the cage need to be lapped together, going to look through the IC engine builds by Brian and others again for techniques on that. This one doesn't need to hold up to as much compression as theirs do, but its the same shape and function. Above the disc in the cage will be a bronze bearing with a hole to match the valve stem (yellow in the first picture). That gets held in place by the upper side plates, and will have some gasket goop around the rim for good measure too.

So, I THINK it is ready for making parts over the next couple days, unless any of you spot a flaw?

 :cheers: Chris
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on December 14, 2021, 02:28:41 AM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Just wondering - does the valve operate parallel to the stroke of the piston, or at right angles to the piston stroke? For some reason I envisioned the valve cage being mounted horizontally in a tube like a Corliss valve. I may be 100% wrong though. If the poppets operated horizontally there would not be a piston to valve crash if the poppet over-traveled.  :shrug:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 14, 2021, 02:44:27 AM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Just wondering - does the valve operate parallel to the stroke of the piston, or at right angles to the piston stroke? For some reason I envisioned the valve cage being mounted horizontally in a tube like a Corliss valve. I may be 100% wrong though. If the poppets operated horizontally there would not be a piston to valve crash if the poppet over-traveled.  :shrug:
Hi CNR,  yes, the valve moves vertically in line with the piston, so if the valve is allowed to over travel at the wrong time it would hit. The oval opening in the side of the two valve cages in an end cap connect to a common exhaust passage that goes out the side of the cap.
I was comparing the Holly and Allis engine plans this evening, the Allis uses poppets starting at the IP exhaust, including the LP inlet. The geometry of the valves are very similar between the two brands, both have pairs in each cap. Big difference is the casting that holds the valve stem, on the Holly they are much thicker at the outer end of the stem. The Allis has cracks where the stem goes into the spring housings and have repairs holding them together. I need to compare the Holly plans and photos closer, at first glance the casting looks a lot bigger than the plans, they may have had the same problem and replaced the whole piece with a thicker one. Good job for tomorrow.


Chris
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 14, 2021, 02:13:44 PM
Did some more comparisons between the Holly poppet valve bonnet plans and photos, have determined that the ones on the engine now match the original plans, so they are the original parts. They designed them a lot sturdier than the ones on the Allis engine, which had cracking problems.


Here is a picture of the Allis valve bonnet, you can see the broken part at the bottom center where the valve stem goes through
(https://i.postimg.cc/bwvNZpDZ/IMG_2699a.jpg)
They repaired it by adding a new casting around the broken piece, with two bolts either side to hold it on. The red cylinder at the bottom is the air piston, which acts like a shock absorber and also pushes the valve stem back into the closed position. At the top of the picture you can see the curved surface of the actuating cam, which pushes down on a flat plate to open the valve. This one is an inlet valve on the LP cylinder, and pushes the valve down and away from the valve seat to let steam in. On the exhaust valves, the cam faces the other way, and pushes the valve up and in towards the cylinder - the valve seat faces the other way on those too. I think part of the issue that caused the cracking, other than the casting being thin there, is that as the cam turns to move the valve stem, it would tend to push the stem to the side as well as the cam rubs on the plate. Combine the side to side forces, the spring action from the air piston, and the forces from inside the cylinder pulsing on the valve end, all came together to metal fatigue the bonnet casting.

On the Holly engine, either they had already learned this lesson on earlier engines, or they realized it could be a problem in design phase, but they made that bonnet casting much thicker, and it has four legs supporting it rather than two. Here is a picture from the Holly engine of the equivalent bonnet (in this case its an exhaust valve) A handy light bulb for scale!

(https://i.postimg.cc/pTdj35q1/DSC-7609.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 14, 2021, 03:26:40 PM
Been refining the valve cage assembly in Fusion, adding some more shape and thinning a few parts down. Here is a screen grab that shows the two valves in the top cap, with red lines drawn on to show the link bars. The horizontal one connects the two valves so they operate together, the vertical one connects down to the valves in the lower cap and the eccentric. The valves in the lower cap are flipped upside down, so as the top set is opened the lower set is closed.

(https://i.postimg.cc/SQ1FMn3Q/Poppet-Valves.jpg)
Now just have to make up the valves!   :atcomputer:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 14, 2021, 04:48:54 PM
Most of the way there, got the 'kit' for the four valve cages prepped....   :Lol:
(https://i.postimg.cc/LsPQnXfX/IMG-0561.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on December 15, 2021, 01:43:16 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Great pics of the Holly and Allis drive clevis arrangements, and thanks for the screen grab pic showing your LP cylinder end from CAD. Looks good!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 15, 2021, 04:16:08 PM
Got started on the valve cages - turning the shells in pairs to reduce waste, turned one end then held that end in the chuck to do the other. After the boring and turning the bevel on the seat the pairs will be parted off from each other. Need four altogether.
(https://i.postimg.cc/1t6qnvGx/IMG-0563.jpg)
Before turning in the bevels (want to do those in same setup as the valve discs) got the bearing inserts made for the top of the cages:
(https://i.postimg.cc/sxrZp5mM/IMG-0564.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 16, 2021, 05:10:03 PM
More on the valve cages today. Cut in the valve seat bevels on the cage shells
(https://i.postimg.cc/cHYkHPdy/IMG-0568.jpg)
and matching bevels on the valve seats. Cut them on the end of a bar and drilled/threaded the end and the stem rods, and parted off the seats.
(https://i.postimg.cc/4N1MpCVX/IMG-0567.jpg)
First valve stem/seat assembled
(https://i.postimg.cc/W1WHfM5K/IMG-0569.jpg)
and test fit
(https://i.postimg.cc/t4Cc5rNW/IMG-0572.jpg)
with valve closed
(https://i.postimg.cc/q7WZppVx/IMG-0570.jpg)
and open
(https://i.postimg.cc/q7N5fzY7/IMG-0571.jpg)
I'll get the other three up to this point, then cut the port openings in the side of the cages before moving on to the rocker supports.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on December 16, 2021, 05:33:39 PM
Very nice looking valve, Chris!

So how are you going to test your valves to see if they seal well?  That seems like it can be a bit of a challenge.

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 16, 2021, 05:56:11 PM
Very nice looking valve, Chris!

So how are you going to test your valves to see if they seal well?  That seems like it can be a bit of a challenge.

Kim
Other than a blow in the end test, no testing yet. Once the side port is cut I'll be able to put some large plastic tube over the end for a better test. These don't have to hold high pressure, but don't want it to blow past it either. One good thing is that the valve cages can be unscrewed from the end caps if needed without dismantling the cylinder.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 16, 2021, 07:23:45 PM
Very nice looking valve, Chris!

So how are you going to test your valves to see if they seal well?  That seems like it can be a bit of a challenge.

Kim
Other than a blow in the end test, no testing yet. Once the side port is cut I'll be able to put some large plastic tube over the end for a better test. These don't have to hold high pressure, but don't want it to blow past it either. One good thing is that the valve cages can be unscrewed from the end caps if needed without dismantling the cylinder.
Got the other three valve stems done, and took a close look while spinning the valve stems against the seats. It looks like two of them will need a little lapping compound, can see where the disc is spinning just off center, leaving a very tiny gap on one side. Not unexpected, given that I made the stem/disc seperately and was depending on the threads to hold them together (with loctite). Not as precise as the one-piece construction I've seen on most of the IC engine builds, but quick and easy, a few minutes with some Timesavers compound should get it seating better.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on December 16, 2021, 09:31:12 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on December 16, 2021, 11:06:47 PM
Sounds like you've got it figured!  And knowing you, you'll get it working regardless!  :popcorn:

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 16, 2021, 11:21:07 PM
Sounds like you've got it figured!  And knowing you, you'll get it working regardless!  :popcorn:

Kim
Thanks Kim,
Tough part is convincing the apprentice shop elf to hand-open/close the exhaust port with a cork at the right times...  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 16, 2021, 11:21:28 PM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
:cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 16, 2021, 11:25:24 PM
Oh, and last fall you may recall (probably not) that I had (mostly) built the shrimp boat kit that forum member Thomas had sent me. Last things to do on it were the towers/spars/winches for the rear deck, that would hold the big nets out the back. Finally about ready to work on that stuff, now that the weather has gone to winter ick again. He sent me some good detail photos of what its all supposed to look like, should not take long given a stack of small round bar and some solder.  Photos on that to follow over the next couple weeks....
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 17, 2021, 09:42:33 PM
Not much to show today, was prepping stock for the valve bonnets (which support the cam and its shaft/cranks) and decided to rework the shapes a bit. Wound up changing to make the two vertical suppports out of one piece joined at the bottom. This has the advantage of more reigidity and simplifies the machining. I had some round brass bar, already stress relieved, in a diameter large enough to get out the parts. Just started prepping the parts, cut to length and countersunk one end to fit over the valve stem bearing. Tomorrow I'll start shaping the uprights out of them too, pictures then....
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on December 17, 2021, 10:22:36 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 18, 2021, 06:45:48 PM
Started in on the valve bonnets. Took a little time to figure out the order of cuts and how to hold the pieces, finally settled on cutting them from round bar, and leaving the top end on till the last step to support the vertical sides and give a place to grip it by at both ends. I drilled/counterbored the bottom ends to fit over the valve stem and bearing, and marked the sides for the thickness of the end plates. The grooves near each end are those marks, made with the parting tool. Next step was to flatten two opposing sides to form the outside of the vertical walls. The one on the right has had both sides flattened, the one on the left shows how a bit of flat stock was used in the vise to level the piece for the second cut.

(https://i.postimg.cc/bwv5TDNJ/IMG-0573.jpg)
Then flattened the third side, using the flat bar on one of the first two sides but now set vertical in the vise.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sX5HX5Kn/IMG-0574.jpg)
Here it is after flattening the fourth side, which is a deeper cut - the side walls are offset to one side to hold the pivot rod for the cam next to the valve stem. The one on the left has had this fourth cut made, the one on the right is next...

(https://i.postimg.cc/43DFsWv7/IMG-0575.jpg)
Here is after cutting the center slot out.  I've sketched in the shape that the side walls will get - just a quick sketch, not measured out yet! The top disc will be trimmed off later, for now having both end discs still there makes it easy to clamp solidly in the vise.

(https://i.postimg.cc/3w4bssGQ/IMG-0576.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on December 18, 2021, 07:33:06 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Lots of setups and work in those solid gold bonnets.  :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 18, 2021, 08:11:58 PM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Lots of setups and work in those solid gold bonnets.  :cheers:
So these are valve crowns, not bonnets!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on December 18, 2021, 08:48:54 PM
Crowns it is!  :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 19, 2021, 03:25:02 PM
More shaping work on the crowns, started with drilling the holes through the side supports for the pivot rod that will hold the rocker
(https://i.postimg.cc/nzZvVR2M/IMG-0577.jpg)
then set up the angle vise to shape the profile of the side supports - the tops will be cut off last and the top ends of the side walls filed/sanded to shape.
(https://i.postimg.cc/1X3ww8LQ/IMG-0578.jpg)
Back to the roatary table to drill the mounting holes in the base. This kind of operation is a big reason for leaving the tops on till last, otherwise holding the parts for this would be very tricky.
(https://i.postimg.cc/C1NbRGr7/IMG-0579.jpg)
Will drill the matching holes in the valve cages with this same setup next...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on December 19, 2021, 04:58:56 PM
Your incredible progress never ceases to amaze me, Chris!   :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 19, 2021, 05:01:51 PM
Your incredible progress never ceases to amaze me, Chris!   :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
Thanks Kim!  Being this close to having the last of the moving parts done is a real motivator after so long on the project.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 19, 2021, 05:04:16 PM
Uh oh, I think I know where that other grumpy shop elf went. He is making horror movies in Hollywood now.... Just saw this movie poster:
(https://i.postimg.cc/J7yK0gcd/Image2.jpg)
 :paranoia:    :paranoia:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 19, 2021, 07:14:35 PM
Got the mounting holes for the bonnets drilled/tapped, and the top ends sawn off. Rounded the top ends on the sander, and bolted the bonnets onto the valve cages. The remaining two mounting holes were drilled for tap size but not tapped - they will be used as drill guides into the cylinder end caps for the tap sizes there, then the holes in the cages drilled out to clearance size.
(https://i.postimg.cc/tC9cJbDt/IMG-0579.jpg)
The valve stems needed some small pattern 5-40 nuts, which I don't have, so I took the quick and dirty route to make some by taking some 4-40 small pattern nuts (which I have a lot of) and drilling/tapping them out to 5-40 size. That lets them fit between the vertical walls on the bonnets. After the crank cams are made, and the valve travel adjusted, the nuts will get a drop of blue loctite to keep them from travelling, and the top ends of the valve rods can be trimmed back to final length.
Next up, I guess are the crank cams and crank arms...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on December 19, 2021, 10:16:09 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 20, 2021, 03:47:53 PM
This morning nibbled the rockers out of a length of square bar...
(https://i.postimg.cc/T3jYmgD5/IMG-0582.jpg)
and all test fit on the valve cages...
(https://i.postimg.cc/25zjxyQc/IMG-0583.jpg)
Next up is a couple pairs of crank arms...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: propforward on December 20, 2021, 05:53:27 PM
Beautiful detail as always. Glad to just be following along! I always am following, but I don't chime in all the time as I don't want to be TOO much of a fan boy.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 20, 2021, 06:06:26 PM
Beautiful detail as always. Glad to just be following along! I always am following, but I don't chime in all the time as I don't want to be TOO much of a fan boy.
Great to have you following along!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 20, 2021, 08:36:07 PM
This afternoon I threw some bar stock and the plans for the crank arms into the pen where the shop elves keep their steel-nibbling shop goat, and it chewed out the shapes for me:
(https://i.postimg.cc/cCW1HcxJ/IMG-0584.jpg)
A trial fit works well, time for some final filing, then can get started on boring the big holes in the cylinder end cap for the valve cages:
(https://i.postimg.cc/VvFfbbvW/IMG-0585.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on December 20, 2021, 09:13:21 PM
Very nice!

The elves have CNC Goats?  :lolb:

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 20, 2021, 09:40:31 PM
Very nice!

The elves have CNC Goats?  :lolb:

Kim
You don't want to know where the usb card plugs in...  :hellno:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on December 21, 2021, 03:06:54 AM
To say nothing of the carbide teeth for steel cutting.  :Lol:

Like the old joke about the Ford Cow - two horns, no lights !  :shrug: :Lol:

Cranks and rockers / crowns look great!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 21, 2021, 03:55:05 AM
To say nothing of the carbide teeth for steel cutting.  :Lol:

Like the old joke about the Ford Cow - two horns, no lights !  :shrug: :Lol:

Cranks and rockers / crowns look great!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
:Lol:   
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 21, 2021, 05:10:08 PM
Finally up to boring out the holes for the exhaust valve cages in the cylinder end caps. After a bunch of measuring, marking, checking clearances to the frame, rechecking, it was time to clamp the lower cap down to the mill table. I put a block of wood under it so the drill and boring head can go right through without hitting the table, and used four step clamps.
(https://i.postimg.cc/tJgF4c3X/IMG-0586.jpg)
after drilling a 3/8" starter hole, switched over to the boring head and started, well, you guessed it, boring.
(https://i.postimg.cc/KjsBk5ft/IMG-0587.jpg)
Got close to final diameter, and kept measuring/sneaking up on the final size till the first valve cage would just slip in.
(https://i.postimg.cc/XN2wzVWX/IMG-0588.jpg)
One down, one more on the other side of the cap, then two more in the top cap to go...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 21, 2021, 06:31:26 PM
Second hole for valve cage bored in the lower cap
(https://i.postimg.cc/1zPBZJjz/IMG-0590.jpg)
view from inside the cylinder side, showing how the cages are recessed so no chance of a valve crash on the piston
(https://i.postimg.cc/t4FkfLDf/IMG-0591.jpg)
Set in place oin the engine frame - note that the cap still needs the 'feet' on the bottom which raise it up another 5/16". The rod connecting the two cranks will cross just above where the crosshead stops on the up-stroke
(https://i.postimg.cc/Xv88NdRk/IMG-0592.jpg)
Now on to the upper cap....
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 21, 2021, 08:20:15 PM
One more bit of boring for the day, did the first hole in the top cap. Due to the crown in the top, which will have ribs cut down into it like the other top caps, the upper end of the hole was counterbored out larger to take the rim of the valve cage.
(https://i.postimg.cc/c4xTjDP4/IMG-0593.jpg)
Test fit of valve cage
(https://i.postimg.cc/280TfQfd/IMG-0594.jpg)
One more hole to bore. The caps need to have the mounting screw holes for the cages drilled/tapped in still, then can start work on the exhaust passages out the sides of the caps. Those passages are rectangular rather than round like the others, and will connect in to fittings on the vertical exhaust pipe that goes down to the condenser at the pump floor.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on December 22, 2021, 12:25:39 AM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Admiral_dk on December 22, 2021, 12:00:59 PM
Looks fabulous Chris  :praise2:

One question from a IC engine person - is there no 'countersunk' around the valve on the inside of the chamber, to help flow out ?
The valve itself blocks most of the steam / air going out as I see it ....  :thinking:

Per
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 22, 2021, 02:13:02 PM
Looks fabulous Chris  :praise2:

One question from a IC engine person - is there no 'countersunk' around the valve on the inside of the chamber, to help flow out ?
The valve itself blocks most of the steam / air going out as I see it ....  :thinking:

Per
Hi Per,
The original engine did not have any countersink like that, though in it each valve disc was nearly 2 feet across and they had the valve cage right up to the base of the cylinder. I recessed them a to be safer on the valve crash front, but you are right, that does restrict the flow. It would make sense to open up the bottom of the hole some to cure that. Thanks!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 22, 2021, 08:51:11 PM
Got the second valve cage inlet into the upper cap:
(https://i.postimg.cc/hv8My16k/IMG-0595.jpg)
No more on the Holly today, been playing boats instead. As mentioned before, am making the towers that tow the nets on the shrimp boat. Soldering it all up from thick wall brass tube with pins in the joints to keep things in place. The ends of the tubes where they meet another are birds-mouthed with an end mill first.
(https://i.postimg.cc/2jnHSCy0/IMG-0596.jpg)
Thats the main tower sections - more fittings and another cross brace to go on, then will make the 'arms' that hinge out from the sides. We have a show at the Tonawanda Aquatic Center north of Buffalo in a few weeks (part of their WinterFest activities) where we will be running the boats/subs in the big pool there, want to take this one along as well as a sub.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 23, 2021, 03:53:08 PM
Hi All,
Elfric ThE ShOp ElF ForEman Here (Bahb - stop jumping on the shift key!).... there, thats better. Wanted to set the record straight, that darn Chris keeps tAkInG (Bahb! Stop!) credit for all the work in the shop. Was he back here soldering that boat frame? NO! It was us!

Till next time,Elfric, Fore-Elf

(https://i.postimg.cc/prg01KND/IMG-0599.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on December 23, 2021, 05:01:56 PM
Hi All,
Elfric ThE ShOp ElF ForEman Here (Bahb - stop jumping on the shift key!).... there, thats better. Wanted to set the record straight, that darn Chris keeps tAkInG (Bahb! Stop!) credit for all the work in the shop. Was he back here soldering that boat frame? NO! It was us!

Till next time,Elfric, Fore-Elf

(https://i.postimg.cc/prg01KND/IMG-0599.jpg)

OK, now that makes a lot more sense as to how and why so much work comes out of that shop each day. Great job Elfric and wish you and your crew a Happy Holiday Season.

Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 23, 2021, 05:46:21 PM
Hi All,
Elfric ThE ShOp ElF ForEman Here (Bahb - stop jumping on the shift key!).... there, thats better. Wanted to set the record straight, that darn Chris keeps tAkInG (Bahb! Stop!) credit for all the work in the shop. Was he back here soldering that boat frame? NO! It was us!

Till next time,Elfric, Fore-Elf

(https://i.postimg.cc/prg01KND/IMG-0599.jpg)

OK, now that makes a lot more sense as to how and why so much work comes out of that shop each day. Great job Elfric and wish you and your crew a Happy Holiday Season.

Thomas
Thanks Thomas! 

We just finished soldering up the struts on the side spars too...  Neat the way the shrimp boats used rods held out around the spars to keep them rigid but light.

(https://i.postimg.cc/RCDKxMWb/IMG-0600.jpg)
Now we need to go do more work on the suits of armor so we can go jousting with Slim at Tghs's shop while we chain Chris back to the mill to work on the Holly!
Elfric and Bohb.
 :cheers:
Oh, yeah, where'd we leave that keg of Elfenstiener....!?
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 23, 2021, 07:58:18 PM
Okay, okay, so the ELVES have been working on the shrimp boat towers....  The side booms are almost done, need the top caps and pulleys:
(https://i.postimg.cc/wj1dbYtz/IMG-0602.jpg)
here is an overall shot - the booms are bolted in at the bottom hinge, but they are just held with some string loops in the middle so far.
(https://i.postimg.cc/c49SmLLT/IMG-0601.jpg)
A few more fittings to go and it will be ready for some paint and attaching to the deck of the boat. To keep it removeable the tubes will fit down over posts on the deck.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on December 23, 2021, 08:41:59 PM
If the shop elves ever slow down, now you actually have booms that can be lowered, as in "the boss lowered the boom on those jokers!"  :embarassed: :facepalm:  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Craig DeShong on December 23, 2021, 09:37:01 PM
Hi All,
Elfric ThE ShOp ElF ForEman Here (Bahb - stop jumping on the shift key!).... there, thats better. Wanted to set the record straight, that darn Chris keeps tAkInG (Bahb! Stop!) credit for all the work in the shop. Was he back here soldering that boat frame? NO! It was us!

Till next time,Elfric, Fore-Elf

(https://i.postimg.cc/prg01KND/IMG-0599.jpg)

I always figured that, with the amount of work that gets done in Chris’s shop, he (Chris) was more in a management role; though I realize I’ve just used a dirty and somewhat insulting word.  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 23, 2021, 09:45:22 PM
Hi All,
Elfric ThE ShOp ElF ForEman Here (Bahb - stop jumping on the shift key!).... there, thats better. Wanted to set the record straight, that darn Chris keeps tAkInG (Bahb! Stop!) credit for all the work in the shop. Was he back here soldering that boat frame? NO! It was us!

Till next time,Elfric, Fore-Elf

(https://i.postimg.cc/prg01KND/IMG-0599.jpg)

I always figured that, with the amount of work that gets done in Chris’s shop, he (Chris) was more in a management role; though I realize I’ve just used a dirty and somewhat insulting word.  :Lol:
Wow, I haven't been called a name as bad as a m*n*g*er in a long time!    Flashback to my favorite Dilbert book cover, cartoon with caption 'Don't Step In The LeaderShip!'   :lolb:

The elves and I are off to the living room to watch a movie. At least we've had practice here making popcorn!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: ddmckee54 on December 24, 2021, 05:10:55 PM
Good thing you fessed up about whos's been doing the actual hot work.  It's WAY too close to Christmas to get put on the Naughty List for fibbing.

You, and the elves, and everybody else, have a merry Christmas.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 24, 2021, 07:03:53 PM
So the shop elves AND I have finished up the fabrication on the shrimp boat towers, and got a coat of paint on them (they hung onto the can, I waved them back and forth)
(https://i.postimg.cc/k5MN3SR3/IMG-0603a.jpg)
I'll let the paint cure up and then work out the deck posts to hold the towers in place. Also want to make up a winch to sit at the base of the tower.

(https://i.postimg.cc/vmPrQm51/IMG-0604a.jpg)
Got a couple pool runs coming up in January, looking forward to having this out in the water.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on December 24, 2021, 08:03:43 PM
Great looking boat Chris! You might get a call from the Bubba Gump Shrimp Company!  :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Don1966 on December 24, 2021, 09:17:33 PM
Hey Chris this is our Christmas Santa sleigh.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 24, 2021, 09:42:33 PM
Hey Chris this is our Christmas Santa sleigh.


That. Is. AWESOME!!   :praise2:  Love it.

Rudolph has more teeth than I thought...!

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 24, 2021, 09:48:10 PM
Oh, and just noticed that the antlers are a crab!

Did a quick search and found this article about the display:https://www.southernthing.com/louisiana-town-gets-festive-with-cajun-christmas-display-of-shrimp-boat-sleigh-pulled-by-reingators-2641638851.html
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on December 24, 2021, 11:42:42 PM
Love the display Don! well done. Merry Christmas to you!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Don1966 on December 24, 2021, 11:54:16 PM
There are actually two gators the photo only capture one.  Merry Christmas CNR


Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on December 25, 2021, 12:36:15 AM
Trying to figure & get the link Chris, but found it appears to be about 160 miles between Morgon City & goodmorning, Morgontown.....

Merry Christmas Derek :Jester:

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Don1966 on December 25, 2021, 02:19:16 AM
Trying to figure & get the link Chris, but found it appears to be about 160 miles between Morgon City & goodmorning, Morgontown.....

Merry Christmas Derek :Jester:


This is in my home town and that’s in Morgan City, Louisiana Derek. Merry Christmas to you…

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 26, 2021, 05:23:22 PM
After a great Christmas holiday, got back in the shop today to do some more on the LP cylinder caps. Got the exhaust passages drilled from the side to the valve cage openings.

(https://i.postimg.cc/HsrkSxVB/IMG-0605.jpg)
and milled the grids into the top cap - all three cylinder caps have thes grids, strengthens the wide flat surface while keeping the weight down. They did not put the grids on the bottom, I presume since the glands and the mounting to the engine frames kept that end rigid.
(https://i.postimg.cc/7YjYjkzD/IMG-0608.jpg)
Also milled in the openings for the exhaust flanges, and made the pair that will go on the caps. I need to make another pair that have a tapered section to connect to the large diameter exhaust pipe - that is a vertical pipe leading down to the condenser unit cooled by the pumped water. Here is a shot of all the parts so far set up in a stack - not bolted down yet, no gaskets yet.

(https://i.postimg.cc/Qd5x3yg7/IMG-0609.jpg)
and a view from the other side showing how the steam inlet pipes will fit
(https://i.postimg.cc/g0WckH4T/IMG-0610.jpg)
Getting there! Still some more small bits to make: valve rods, cranks for the inlet valves, the exhaust piping, ball links and connections between the valves, plus a couple larger bits - the mounting rails that connect the lower cap to the engine frame as well as the piston head. May well have it all together and running by New Years Day.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: propforward on December 26, 2021, 07:16:36 PM
I love how it all gleams in the pictures. Like something being made in the forge of Vulcan or something.

I should probably lay off the sauce a bit. :D
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 26, 2021, 07:24:37 PM
I love how it all gleams in the pictures. Like something being made in the forge of Vulcan or something.

I should probably lay off the sauce a bit. :D
Um, maybe a couple of bits less...!    :Lol:   
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Craig DeShong on December 26, 2021, 07:33:15 PM
Every time I view this thread, which is about daily, I’m constantly impressed with the detail you’re putting in this model.  I’ve said it before, but it bears repeating; this going to be one of those models where, every time you see it, you will see something ‘new’ you haven’t seen before.  Incredible work Chris.  :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on December 26, 2021, 08:01:14 PM
That's looking great, Chris!

A couple of questions that I'm sure you've talked about, but I can't always put it together till I hear it multiple times.
1) What are the slots in the top and bottom that you can see in the third picture (the first stack-together shot)?
2) In the fourth pic, is the pipe on the right that goes from the top to the bottom cylinder heads, is that the steam input for the far side? Or what?

Thanks,
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on December 26, 2021, 08:13:47 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 26, 2021, 08:40:53 PM
Thanks guys! It took a lot of time and figuring early on in the planning stage to decide on the scale for the model, to allow for more detail and keeping parts large enough to function, while keeping the whole thing small enough to be manageable.

Hi Kim, for your questions,

1) the horizontal slots are the exhaust passage connections to the big pipe down to the condenser. On the other cylinders all the pipes were smaller, so they made them round, on these the pressures are very low and volume very high, so they wanted to have as big an opening as possible for the exhaust steam, that meant going rectangular/wide. The condensor created a partial vacuum in the exhaust pipe, which helped pull on the LP piston, creating a bigger pressure difference on that piston. Small gains, but on a 96" piston it adds up to a big efficiency gain.

2) yes - that is the steam input pipe manifold. Since I am running on compressed air, each cylinder has its own input line fed from the main valve by the HP cylinder, and the IP/LP ones have their own needle valve (can just see the one in that last picture for the LP pipes) so I can balance the force on each piston. Otherwise the LP piston would way overpower the other two and make for a jerky motion. As with the IP cylinder, these extra pipes/valves are going to be hidden inside a reciever tank. There are two of these tanks, one between the HP and IP cylinders, and one between the IP and LP cylinders - they make a handy spot to hide 'extra' piping for running on compressed air. Not only do I not have a big boiler suitable for running on steam, this model is way too big and heavy to be carrying in/out of the house to run with a boiler.

This screen grab from the CAD model from an earlier post gives a good look at how it will look with the second receiver tanks and exhaust piping. And yes, this shows the cylinders backwards from the model! The original blueprints showed the engine this way, with notes on which parts were mirrored for a 'left hand' vs a 'right hand' engine - they made them both ways, depending on which side they wanted to have the valves on. I made the CAD model to match the blueprints, had gotten partway along before realizing the Ward engines were the opposite handed version, and kept going that way, reversed it when I built the model to match the Ward installation.
(https://i.postimg.cc/L6k4B22S/Image14.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on December 26, 2021, 10:16:20 PM
Thanks Chris!  Very clear answers.

Having to go from left-handed drawings to right-handed implementation is a pain - and a good way for me to make a mistake at every turn!   :Lol:

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 27, 2021, 08:36:13 PM
Thanks Chris!  Very clear answers.

Having to go from left-handed drawings to right-handed implementation is a pain - and a good way for me to make a mistake at every turn!   :Lol:

Kim
I made some left/right goofs on this one, but if you dont look at the original plans you wont know!   O:-)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 27, 2021, 08:49:28 PM
Today was make-feet-for-LP-cylinder day. Not a very catchy holiday name, but there you go. These pieces lift the LP cylinder base up so that the poppet-valve cranks/stems have room above the engine frames and crosshead. They bolt down onto the top of the engine frames like the other cylinders did, but with holes in the top sides of the feet they can be bolted down with a socket wrench without the reaching in from the sides that I had to do on the IP cylinder. One of the rows of screws is indicated by the red arrow. Then, the cylinder base can be bolted onto it with screws underneath the flanges at the ends, where the green arrow is pointing.
(https://i.postimg.cc/rFtMYBZ5/IMG-0611.jpg)
Here are the parts so far set roughly in place on top of the feet to give a better idea of where it all goes:
(https://i.postimg.cc/y84sqL2t/IMG-0617.jpg)
I checked the piston rod for perpendiculairty to the base cap, and like the others a couple turns of the pump plunger rods/nuts got it running square to the cap/cylinder. I'm going to make the piston head next, and recheck the position with that in place before marking and drilling the holes to connect the base cap to the feet - it needs everything square so the piston does not push sideways in the cylinder and jam.
The valve rods are also made for the inlet valves, they look just like the ones on the other cylinders. Getting close to assembling and timing this last cylinder - last parts to make for that are the valve cranks and links. Looks like there will be parts ready for paint in a couple days, might be running by New Years Day.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on December 27, 2021, 09:25:04 PM
Wow... a lot going on there.  But that's your standard blistering speed, Chris!  :popcorn:
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on December 28, 2021, 12:00:06 AM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RReid on December 28, 2021, 12:55:19 AM
Quote
might be running by New Years Day.
A great way to ring puff in the New Year!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on December 28, 2021, 02:09:40 AM
These rectangular flanges on the LP discharge, we see no preparatory drill & tapping for bolts........am I missing something?, as the access in the lower horizontal rims [hidden section] of the flange appears a bit tight  :hammerbash:

Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 28, 2021, 03:18:04 AM
These rectangular flanges on the LP discharge, we see no preparatory drill & tapping for bolts........am I missing something?, as the access in the lower horizontal rims [hidden section] of the flange appears a bit tight  :hammerbash:

Derek
Hi Derek,


Nope, not missing anything yet, I just haven't drilled the holes yet, going to wait until the mating pieces are made. Those rectangular flanges are just set in place in the caps, not fixed in yet. The screws will come in from the pipe side, so plenty of access room. The flanges are wide enough for a 2-56 screw.




And RReid, I agree, though hopefully the compressor is working well that day so I don't have to blow the pistons round myself!




Chris
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 28, 2021, 07:13:12 PM
Today's playtime was to make the piston head for the LP cylinder. Don't have any suitable steel bar, but did have some 3"x1/2" stree relieved brass flat bar - took a square off the end of that, and centered it up in the four jaw, and turned the OD down to just under 3". Then bored the piston rod hole and counterbored for the nut on the end of the piston rod. The rod will be stepped down near the end for the piston to seat against.

(https://i.postimg.cc/rFk5XYPt/IMG-0620.jpg)
Then put the live center in the center hole to ensure it would not move under the pressure from the parting tool, and cut the o-ring groove, testing till it gave a good sliding fit in the cylinder.
(https://i.postimg.cc/hjQVcFnV/IMG-0621.jpg)
The part was then flipped over and centered again, to trim off the remainder of the original bar and take the piston head to final thickness. It looks very thin, but this matches the proportions of the original 96" diameter head.
(https://i.postimg.cc/T1rm5rpw/IMG-0622.jpg)
With the live center removed, that final nub at the center was trimmed off too
(https://i.postimg.cc/MZR1L8dS/IMG-0623.jpg)
The finished piston head and o-ring
(https://i.postimg.cc/wMKLBWxZ/IMG-0625.jpg)
Next up will be to turn/thread the end of the piston rod. The rod had been left long back when the crossheads were made, I marked the positions where the rod met the top/bottom caps when the crank was turned to top/bottom dead centers, will use those marks to trim the rod to final length. Given the number of parts in the stack from the engine beds on up and how little end space there is in the cylinder, this was safer than just using the drawing dimensions for the length.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on December 28, 2021, 09:08:07 PM
Looks ready for hiss / swoosh / hiss duty!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 28, 2021, 10:20:27 PM
Looks ready for hiss / swoosh / hiss duty!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:


Very close!  Just got the piston rod end trimmed, turned, and threaded. Loctited it and the retaining nut to the piston head, letting it cure up overnight.
Tomorrow can check squareness of the cylinder and the feet, and get the cap bolted to the feet. After that, hmmm, paint while making the cranks/links....
Looking good for timing tests later in the week!


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on December 28, 2021, 10:53:38 PM
That does look like a really skinny piston!  But it must have worked since that's what they used.  :popcorn:

It was sad to see that last 1/8" of brass just turn to swarf! But you use what you've got in stock because it's cheaper than buying anything new!

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 29, 2021, 06:25:06 PM
That does look like a really skinny piston!  But it must have worked since that's what they used.  :popcorn:

It was sad to see that last 1/8" of brass just turn to swarf! But you use what you've got in stock because it's cheaper than buying anything new!

Kim
Definitely - the bar that came from is a couple years old, prices have definitely gone up!
And on the piston, scaled up its a foot thick, they used a couple rows of piston rings where I just am using one.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 29, 2021, 06:28:47 PM
Got the mounting holes in the feet and lower cylinder cap all drilled/tapped, appears to be clearing well everywhere. Well, almost, I think I will need to tweak the crank arms on the lower cap valves, just touches the crosshead at TDC. Getting some gasket goop to seal in the valve cages in the openings, will need to let that and the paint cure up before final assembly. Here the parts are set in place, nothing other than the feet bolted down yet.

(https://i.postimg.cc/QNf5g55P/IMG-0626.jpg)
A view underneath, shows how tight the quarters are on the lower valve cages (which still need paint too)

(https://i.postimg.cc/QxV7ftJM/IMG-0627.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Admiral_dk on December 29, 2021, 07:43:42 PM
Your pictures of the full size engine makes one think that there is massive space between all the parts - but it's obvious from the last picture of the model, that when - 'shrunk down' - all the details are very close together ..... maybe you need smaller Elves ...  :thinking:      :cheers:

Per

oh - and it's still an amazing model you're building  :praise2:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 29, 2021, 07:49:42 PM
Your pictures of the full size engine makes one think that there is massive space between all the parts - but it's obvious from the last picture of the model, that when - 'shrunk down' - all the details are very close together ..... maybe you need smaller Elves ...  :thinking:      :cheers:

Per

oh - and it's still an amazing model you're building  :praise2:
Yeah, its tough for 1:8 scale elves working on a 1:32 model!
When I had the opportunnity to climb up the Allis engine in Boston, very like this Holly one, it was clear that spaces for the workers were very tight as well. Railings around most of the moving bits, but still within arm-chewing-off range! Walking around on the lower pump level catwalks required a little gut-sucking-in to get through the catwalks.  Looking forward to this spring with the scheduled tour of the pump station in Cincinatti!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on December 29, 2021, 08:26:29 PM
You are right about the tight quarters on LP cyl bottom head - so tight, maybe we should say "tight eighths"?  :Lol:

Looking great!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 30, 2021, 04:06:27 PM
This mornings fun was to run in 3 gazillion screws to hold the end caps on the LP cylinder. Before assembly I lubed up the o-ring, cylinder walls, and valves. Once assembled and with valves closed, lots of compression on the cylinder, opened the valves and got a nice whoosh of air through the valves.

Here is a bottom view
(https://i.postimg.cc/FFVcPrsJ/IMG-0628.jpg)
and a top view
(https://i.postimg.cc/ncVmgyCS/IMG-0630.jpg)
Didn't realize how heavy this cylinder is till I held it for the photo. Weighed it, 6.8 pounds. Going to have to rent in some more elves with a small crane for moving the final model to the cabinet!  Hmmm, CNR, I seem to recall a picture of a mobile crane you made?
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on December 30, 2021, 05:50:57 PM
https://www.unidex-inc.com/portable-lifts/phql-quick-lift-tables/

These ones? The Unidex firm was the one I mentioned that was located in Warsaw NY. Many of these type of tables from Unidex were built under and into fixtures of various kinds at a large US firm I worked for years ago. The lift tables from this firm were high quality and reasonably priced, and they were nice people to work with.

(they don't rent out shop elves though, as far as I know.) :Lol:

The cylinder assembly looks great!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 30, 2021, 06:05:52 PM
https://www.unidex-inc.com/portable-lifts/phql-quick-lift-tables/ (https://www.unidex-inc.com/portable-lifts/phql-quick-lift-tables/)

These ones? The Unidex firm was the one I mentioned that was located in Warsaw NY. Many of these type of tables from Unidex were built under and into fixtures of various kinds at a large US firm I worked for years ago. The lift tables from this firm were high quality and reasonably priced, and they were nice people to work with.

(they don't rent out shop elves though, as far as I know.) :Lol:

The cylinder assembly looks great!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
One of those tables would be good, but I was thinking you had a scale rail or wheeled mobile crane in your model collection, maybe that was someone else?  I trade emails with too many people to keep track sometimes!   :headscratch:

Just finished making the linkage for the bottom exhaust valves and got the cylinder bolted to the frame. Still several more links to make, but turning it over by hand it was clear that the valves are sealing well - if I close them partway through a stroke it gets REALLY hard to turn the flywheel. That is a great sign that once properly timed it should run well.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on December 30, 2021, 06:42:51 PM
https://www.unidex-inc.com/portable-lifts/phql-quick-lift-tables/

These ones? The Unidex firm was the one I mentioned that was located in Warsaw NY. Many of these type of tables from Unidex were built under and into fixtures of various kinds at a large US firm I worked for years ago. The lift tables from this firm were high quality and reasonably priced, and they were nice people to work with.

(they don't rent out shop elves though, as far as I know.) :Lol:

The cylinder assembly looks great!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Hello Chris,

It might be the crane you saw in my shop, you did make a comment about it.

That cylinder assembly is a beautiful piece of work.

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 30, 2021, 07:11:21 PM
https://www.unidex-inc.com/portable-lifts/phql-quick-lift-tables/ (https://www.unidex-inc.com/portable-lifts/phql-quick-lift-tables/)

These ones? The Unidex firm was the one I mentioned that was located in Warsaw NY. Many of these type of tables from Unidex were built under and into fixtures of various kinds at a large US firm I worked for years ago. The lift tables from this firm were high quality and reasonably priced, and they were nice people to work with.

(they don't rent out shop elves though, as far as I know.) :Lol:

The cylinder assembly looks great!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Hello Chris,

It might be the crane you saw in my shop, you did make a comment about it.

That cylinder assembly is a beautiful piece of work.
No, but I really like that one!   


The one I was thinking of is a scale model of a mobile crane, not a full size one for lifting models. Doesn't matter, its not here and not big enough!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: horst.b.0 on December 30, 2021, 08:22:08 PM
Hi Chris,
Steam shovel manufacturer Menck specified a 10 ton pulley to assemble a shovel on site. To lift the house of my model off the undercarriage, I built a scale model of a pulley, which works nicely.
A scale models of an original crane is an interesting idea.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 30, 2021, 08:34:48 PM
Hi Chris,
Steam shovel manufacturer Menck specified a 10 ton pulley to assemble a shovel on site. To lift the house of my model off the undercarriage, I built a scale model of a pulley, which works nicely.
A scale models of an original crane is an interesting idea.
Thats a clever setup!  On the earlier Marion railroad shovels, they did the assembly at the factory, aside from the main boom and stick which were able to be self-erected on site using some built in pulleys on the A-frame, those parts came on a flatbed in front of the shovel. The later tracked ones would have required a crane, as you mention, I had not thought about that aspect of it for ones wider than a rail car. The shovel out here in LeRoy was converted from rail to tracks about 1923, that must have been quite a lot of heavy lifting to get the new tracks under the existing machine.
I may have to find a young cousin and friends from the local football team and give them t-shirts saying "I am a crane"!!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: horst.b.0 on December 30, 2021, 09:12:16 PM
I may have to find a young cousin and friends from the local football team and give them t-shirts saying "I am a crane"!!
Looking at the size and weight of your engine model the human cranes might require some amount of liquid to build up the motivation for this job  :DrinkPint:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steamer on December 31, 2021, 03:19:09 AM
Beautiful work Chris!!!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 31, 2021, 04:04:45 AM
Thanks guys!!    :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Craig DeShong on December 31, 2021, 06:21:24 AM
That does look like a really skinny piston!  But it must have worked since that's what they used.  :popcorn:

It was sad to see that last 1/8" of brass just turn to swarf! But you use what you've got in stock because it's cheaper than buying anything new!

Kim
Definitely - the bar that came from is a couple years old, prices have definitely gone up!
And on the piston, scaled up its a foot thick, they used a couple rows of piston rings where I just am using one.

My thought too, especially after building IC engines for a while.  We need to remember that steam engines have a cross-head to keep things in alignment.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dan Rowe on December 31, 2021, 01:12:23 PM
We need to remember that steam engines have a cross-head to keep things in alignment.

Very large diesel engines used for ships and emergency power plants also have crossheads, not just steam engines.

Cheers Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on December 31, 2021, 09:44:30 PM
Alternated time today with making linkages for the valves, taking down Christmas lights outside (got up around 50F today! ), plumbing in the steam pipes to the LP cylinder, making up the files to 3D print the second receiver and the exhaust manifold, making the cranks for the LP valves, and doing some preventive maintenance on the generator (was running a bit ragged last time, warm day was perfect for that).

So, nothing worth posting a picture of, but a bunch of little jobs done. With a little luck may have pictures/video tomorrow. Enjoy the New Years Eve/Day (some of you are already there, just getting to evening here).
 :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on December 31, 2021, 10:59:31 PM
Happy New Year Chris and all here!  :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 01, 2022, 05:26:55 PM
Progress was a bit slow this morning since the shop elves were arrested by the cop-elves after being pulled over while joy-riding in the Mann truck last night....
(https://i.postimg.cc/TPFR18c9/IMG-0632.jpg)
I might bail them out later, and drive them home while playing very LOUD heavy-metal music on the radio....   :LittleDevil:

So, while working on my own, I've gotten the exhaust manifold 3D printed (6 pieces epoxied together) and painted, ready for mounting screws to the exhaust flanges. The IP/LP receiver tank parts are printing now. Also have about 3/4 of the valve links made, will start on the rest after lunch. Then the eccentrics (made a while back with the ones for the other cylinders) can go on, and start timing the valves.
(https://i.postimg.cc/V6tzb7Gc/IMG-0635.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 01, 2022, 06:54:05 PM
Got the exhaust linkage and eccentric on and adjusted/rough timed. Last moving parts will be the inlet linkages, then can start timing.
(https://i.postimg.cc/gkWBpM36/IMG-0636.jpg)
Good place to break for the day, tune in tomorrow, hope to have it running on all three. About 10 months into the build!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: propforward on January 01, 2022, 07:50:28 PM
It’s a magnificent machine!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on January 01, 2022, 07:53:13 PM
Looks like the shop elves whooped it up pretty good last night in the Mann truck. When do you think they might get sprung from the elf pokey? (I hear they serve a wicked baloney sandwich there) But may not be wise to mention baloney or corned beef when you pick them up. Be sure to unbolt the exhaust manifold to pipe connection on the car when you go... notch 8 on the throttle, about 210 dB.  :mischief:

Anyway, the LP cylinder assy looks great with the manifold on!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 02, 2022, 04:40:55 PM
This morning got the last couple of the moving parts made and started in on timing/testing. Did not take long to get it moving with the third cylinder helping out, though I did find a couple of bad air leaks in the piping joints, working on those now. Took one short video of it moving as proof - the motion is still very jerky at slow speed, going to take some time to balance the pressure on the cylinders as well as fine-tune in the valve timings. Great news is that it will run quite slowly, matching the original!
 :cartwheel:
[youtube1]https://youtu.be/cE90tODvkp4[/youtube1]
More to follow as things are fine tuned over the next day or so!   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on January 02, 2022, 04:44:53 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on January 02, 2022, 05:27:53 PM
 :whoohoo:

Three cylinder motion!   That's quite a milestone, Chris!  :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RReid on January 02, 2022, 05:34:29 PM
That many moving parts working that well together on the first "all up" try is no small accomplishment. Well done Chris, it's beer time! :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on January 02, 2022, 06:26:19 PM
Fantastic and beautiful, it should be mesmerizing at 200 or 300 rpm. :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 02, 2022, 06:30:56 PM
Fantastic and beautiful, it should be mesmerizing at 200 or 300 rpm. :ThumbsUp:
That would pump enough water out the firehose to put an elf into orbit!  I am aiming for 15 to 20rpm like the original. To get a smooth rotation may wind up around 30rpm, we'll see.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 02, 2022, 06:31:38 PM
That many moving parts working that well together on the first "all up" try is no small accomplishment. Well done Chris, it's beer time! :cheers:
Uuuurrrrpppp....   Does Birch Beer count? Just had some of that.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: horst.b.0 on January 02, 2022, 06:57:05 PM
Well done, Chris. Congratulations.   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 02, 2022, 07:13:38 PM
Well done, Chris. Congratulations.   :cheers:
Thanks Horst!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dan Rowe on January 02, 2022, 07:32:13 PM
Nice Chris, The Sulzer RLB 90 diesels with a 900mm bore run between 30 rpm to 122 rpm at full sea speed. You had to go through the first order critical speed to get to full speed and the engine would really vibrate at critical speed so you did not hesitate with the throttle.

 :cheers: :DrinkPint:

Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Admiral_dk on January 02, 2022, 08:20:48 PM
It's getting more and more impressive - first time run on all tree in first try  :praise2:

One could almost worry that this build would be finished in a few days from now - but I'm surre that you have planned to add a lot more tiny details  :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 02, 2022, 08:38:15 PM
It's getting more and more impressive - first time run on all tree in first try  :praise2:

One could almost worry that this build would be finished in a few days from now - but I'm surre that you have planned to add a lot more tiny details  :cheers:
I was able to use the valve to crank angle settings from the first cylinders to set the third, that got it close enough to rotate. From there, lots of tiny angle changes and tests!  I've got it running a fair bit better now, and marked where there were air leaks around fittings. Just did some sealing on those, will let that cure up while I get the receiver tank fitted.


And no worries about being done soon, there are several dummy dashpots to make, then three levels of catwalks with brackets and railings. Also want to make up a water tank for the pumps to draw from and pump into, the pumps should be functional, can feel air movement in the tubes, hopefully they dont leak since they are not accessible.


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 02, 2022, 08:40:28 PM
Nice Chris, The Sulzer RLB 90 diesels with a 900mm bore run between 30 rpm to 122 rpm at full sea speed. You had to go through the first order critical speed to get to full speed and the engine would really vibrate at critical speed so you did not hesitate with the throttle.

 :cheers: :DrinkPint:

Dan
That critical speed is where harmonics set in? Must have been fun for the first engineers to work out!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Don1966 on January 02, 2022, 09:53:24 PM
Dog that is magnificent and mesmerizing………did I say ……..I……………likeeeeee……  :Love:




 :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steam guy willy on January 03, 2022, 12:11:32 AM
Hi Chris, Really good to see it working.. and a tremendous amount of skill and dexterity that has produced this miniature engine,

Briliant
 
Willy
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steamer on January 03, 2022, 12:18:02 AM
This morning got the last couple of the moving parts made and started in on timing/testing. Did not take long to get it moving with the third cylinder helping out, though I did find a couple of bad air leaks in the piping joints, working on those now. Took one short video of it moving as proof - the motion is still very jerky at slow speed, going to take some time to balance the pressure on the cylinders as well as fine-tune in the valve timings. Great news is that it will run quite slowly, matching the original!
 :cartwheel:
[youtube1]https://youtu.be/cE90tODvkp4[/youtube1]
More to follow as things are fine tuned over the next day or so!   :cheers:

She's a runnah!    That's a sweet engine Chris....a technical tour de  force for sure!!!   Bravo!!!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on January 03, 2022, 12:51:46 AM
..."critical speed is where harmonics set in?"   

Well Chris you could spend a fortune on a few accelerometers + a few strain gauges + a digital ratio crankshaft display, all coupled to  digital printer signal recorders just like large Engine Builders do.....

or
 
An $8.00 sonoscope [headphone type thing with a probe]...invaluable in determining the exact location source of sound :killcomputer:

Much better than the 8" Screwdriver plugged into your ear. :ROFL:.....as the sonoscope allows 2 hands free for adjustments

Beautifully brilliant work......Good luck......Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: MJM460 on January 03, 2022, 10:45:38 AM
Hi Chris, a great and exciting milestone that is a tribute not only to your machining skills but also to your design skills to come up with drawings from which you were able to make a working model from the information you had available. 

Of course you did have original drawings that are not often available, but even with those, to scale them down well enough is amazing skill.

Instead of expensive vibration instruments, you could just put Spectrum analyser or similar on your phone and sit the phone on top of the model as it runs, which would probably show up any significant natural frequencies, but probably only ones that you can feel with your fingers as you run up the speed.  Probably none detectable at the slow speed you mention.  But after you have finished tuning it of course.

Well done.  It’s been great to follow your progress so far, and the remaining bits are all extra icing on the cake..

MJM460

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Firebird on January 03, 2022, 12:05:37 PM
SUPERB  :praise2: :wine1: :cheers:

Cheers

Rich
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 03, 2022, 02:03:23 PM
Thanks guys!




I think some have gotten mislead by the side talk of big diesel engines and vibration. This Holley engine doesn't run fast, the speed in the video IS the max speed. They never ran these at high speed, they were pushing and pulling three pump plungers, 36" diameter, over 5 feet stroke, pumping a LOT of water each revolution. The goal is to have the model run slow and smooth.


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 03, 2022, 02:21:11 PM
Chris---That is magnificent!!!---Brian
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 03, 2022, 02:27:46 PM
Chris---That is magnificent!!!---Brian
Thanks very much Brian!  New video uploading now, running a bit smoother and more trim parts on...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 03, 2022, 02:51:18 PM
Okay, yesterday afternoon and this morning got the pipe leaks fixed and put the receiver tank and exhaust manifold in place to give it the proper look. Its now running a lot smoother, with just one hitch in its step to chase down, most likely one of the exhaust valves opening late and back-pressuring a cylinder.  Here is a photo of it in the current state:
(https://i.postimg.cc/02xd3241/IMG-0653.jpg)
And a video of it running after the first round of tweaks to the valves. You can see/hear the one spot where it slows the rotation each time around, that will be the next thing chased. Also, in watching the video, I spotted a boo-boo on the left end (LP) crosshead - the retaining wedge had fallen out, and the crosshead shaft had shifted to the side, so the bearing is hanging out.  :facepalm2: Thats back in place now, and no, it it not effect that one slow spot.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkkUpuQ8Q7g
Quite happy with the progress the last couple days!  :cartwheel:    I find myself just sitting there staring at it going round and round. The speed is good, just need to fix that one spot.

This makes the last of the moving parts on the build - there is still a lot to make: dummy dashpots for the valves, and three levels of catwalks/railings around the engine frame and cylinders. I'm thinking also may make a cutaway shell for the lagging panels - if you look back at the pictures of the original engine, the cylinders are all covered in what looks like an ugly apartment block - definitely want to show the cylinders/valves without that, but I may put up the panels around the back side and have them wavy-cut away  as they come around the sides/top, just to show that feature as well.

Thanks to all for following along and helping along the way, much appreciated! Stay tuned, still another couple months to go! :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on January 03, 2022, 03:44:34 PM
As someone said, very mesmerizing!  And much smoother motion here - just that ONE spot you have to chase.  Love the chuff sound as it goes around.  It is just amazing to watch.

We'll keep following along!  :popcorn: :popcorn:

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Rick Doane on January 03, 2022, 04:29:10 PM
Very well done!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Roger B on January 03, 2022, 05:16:13 PM
Wonderful  :praise2:  :praise2:  :wine1:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Jo on January 03, 2022, 05:55:11 PM
Looking Good  8)

Jo
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 03, 2022, 06:08:48 PM
Some more fiddling after lunch, and narrowed the sticking point down to the LP cylinder eventually. Proved it by disconnecting the piston rod from the crosshead, and (turning by hand only) the sticking point went away. At first I figured it was the exhaust port opening late up above, but it turned out that the inlet port was opening late at the bottom, causing a vacuum to form under the piston as it rose. Normally its not an issue on the models, since the volume of the cylinder is so low, but with a 3" diameter piston that goes very close to the end, the vacuum forms quickly. Marked the valve position so I could try it a couple degrees different at a time, and think I've found the sweet spot on that one, and its running a lot smoother now. Still not as good as I'd like, going to recheck the rest of them as well. With 14 valves with individual timing adjustments, its a fiddly job!
Chris
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 03, 2022, 06:14:13 PM
Oh, and in parallel with the timing work, got the plans pages printed out for the catwalk support brackets - wanted to make sure that I have enough flat bar stock for them. LOTS of brackets, about 20 per level. Turns out I have enough, though two of the bars need stress relieving before cutting. Going to be worth making up some jigs to assembly line the milling work. Here is what the brackets look like - all are the same general style, though the length varies by location.
(https://i.postimg.cc/SKV2RC7m/Brackets.jpg)



Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Craig DeShong on January 03, 2022, 09:35:08 PM
Progress was a bit slow this morning since the shop elves were arrested by the cop-elves after being pulled over while joy-riding in the Mann truck last night....
(https://i.postimg.cc/TPFR18c9/IMG-0632.jpg)

I told you a while back they were brewing some home brewed hooch and storing it in those ‘empty’ barrels.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Craig DeShong on January 03, 2022, 09:40:48 PM
Great news is that it will run quite slowly, matching the original!
[youtube1]https://youtu.be/cE90tODvkp4[/youtube1]

I am indeed lost for words.  :pinkelephant:  :cartwheel:   :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 03, 2022, 09:47:41 PM
Thanks Craig! 


I was playing around with the bar stock for the brackets, to decide how to hold it for shaping. Have settled on using an aluminum block held in a rotary vise base as a clamping block, pics of that tomorrow. The bar stock has been sress relieved in the oven, cooling now. Making the brackets will be something good to alternate with time tweaking the timing on the valves.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on January 04, 2022, 12:44:31 AM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steam guy willy on January 04, 2022, 03:02:25 AM
Hi Chris ,just wondering if you will be hiding all that beautiful work with the cladding ?  Getting better all the while  and do you have a colour scheme  ??  great to see the new video

Willy.  :popcorn: :popcorn:

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 04, 2022, 03:10:44 AM
Hi Chris ,just wondering if you will be hiding all that beautiful work with the cladding ?  Getting better all the while  and do you have a colour scheme  ??  great to see the new video

Willy.  :popcorn: :popcorn:
Hi Willy/CNR,
The cladding makes it look like an old apartment block, so at least the top and front will be left as is - am thinking that I may put a partial cladding panel set over the back side and do a wavy cutaway on the top just to show what it would have looked like. Plus it would hide the couple of extra pipes on the back that I added for compressed air running!

Chris
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 04, 2022, 06:26:21 PM
Started in making the first batch of catwalk brackets this morning. To hold them for milling, I took the rotary milling vise base, which holds the Sherline vise, and replaced the vise with a short length of aluminum. With the block set parallel to the mill table, I milled a shallow recess 1" wide for the bars to sit in, and put four 6-32 screws along the edges. Nuts on those screws will be used to hold the bars - that way the screws can stay run in all the way, putting screws in tightly and out of aluminum many times tends to widen out the threads and make them loose.  Now, I could just as well have used the normal rotary table for all this, but I noticed that a piece of the ali bar was the same width as that vise, and this way did not need any bolt holes through the ali bar, quicker to get started.

So, here is the first step of the milling, a squared pattern near one corner, and mirrored to the opposite corner. Each bar will yield two brackets.
(https://i.postimg.cc/g0jFLtxS/IMG-0660.jpg)
Ran through all six bars for this size bracket (there will be six different bracket sizes for all the catwalks, doing one at a time) then flipped the bars over to do a matching pattern on the other side. Since the bar is flipped, the pattern is mirrored as well, note that it starts in the other corners.
(https://i.postimg.cc/wMKSP60Z/IMG-0661.jpg)
Then turned the rotary table so the angled portion of the bracket is lined up to the table, and connected the ends of the first grooves. On the short edge, the angled line goes partway up the bracket, to leave room for the bottom screw.
(https://i.postimg.cc/hjQkpJbV/IMG-0662.jpg)
Now here is where the grooves start looking confusin in the photos. The first three grooves are 0.050 deep, to form the recessed sides in the brackets. This next set of cuts I'm going halfway through the bar to outline the outside of the bracket and the inside 'window' in the bracket.

After all the angled cuts are made, last will be some more at 90 degrees to finish the windows and the narrow ends, again halfway through.

After doing all the bars on this side, I'll do the same on the other side, but for that will need to swing the table around the other side of 90. The final cuts on that side will break through and seperate the two brackets from the one bar. Lots to keep track of, am making notes of angles/distances on the first cut in each pattern so I can quickly replicate it on the other bars.

(https://i.postimg.cc/rpH61GW8/IMG-0663.jpg)
All looks like a mess at the moment, it will make more sense after they last cuts...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: EricB on January 04, 2022, 07:25:57 PM
 :ThumbsUp:
Brilliant use of the rotating vise base! Sherline sent me one of those in error and I sent it back thinking I'd never have a use for it. Perhaps I was wrong.

I notice you put extra mounts on the cylinders even though you didn't use them. Are you planning to fit something to them later?

Eric
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 04, 2022, 07:37:24 PM
:ThumbsUp:
Brilliant use of the rotating vise base! Sherline sent me one of those in error and I sent it back thinking I'd never have a use for it. Perhaps I was wrong.

I notice you put extra mounts on the cylinders even though you didn't use them. Are you planning to fit something to them later?

Eric


Hi Eric,


I got that rotating vise as part of a mill/lathe package that I bought (very slightly) used from someone that was downsizing to a smaller house. Great way to pick up spares plus a bunch of accessories that I didn't have. I also never bought it since couldn't think of a use till now.


Those extra bosses on the cylinders are for the dashpots for the Corliss valves, have not made them yet. They are like little vacuum chambers to pull the valve links down as they go past the control steps.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 04, 2022, 10:15:34 PM
More done this afternoon on the first set of brackets. This is the kind of fiddly work that I do a couple pieces, take a break and go do something else for a while, and come back and do a couple more pieces. I got the main outlines done on all six bars, then switched to a 5/64 mini end mill to finish up the inside 'windows' in the brackets since the 1/8" cutter would not go very far into the corners.
(https://i.postimg.cc/yNDpHkpx/IMG-0665.jpg)
Here is one of the bars so far, on edge to show the shapes better. The diagonal in the middle is where the two brackets will be seperated, by trimming the last bits out to the long edges. There still needs to be a slot made at the inside square corner to give room for the mounting screws there, and another screw hole at the other end of the short edges. Also screw holes on the long outside face for the floor panels to be attached to.

(https://i.postimg.cc/25gc8rgw/IMG-0666.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on January 04, 2022, 10:35:57 PM
That makes a pretty neat design on its own!  You could line up a whole array of those into fancy patterns and it would look like brass Kumiko that Jim was showing us over on the "Not a Model Engine" thread a few weeks ago! :)

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 04, 2022, 10:41:52 PM
That makes a pretty neat design on its own!  You could line up a whole array of those into fancy patterns and it would look like brass Kumiko that Jim was showing us over on the "Not a Model Engine" thread a few weeks ago! :)

Kim
That Kumiko is very neat stuff, need to try that one of these days. Oh boy, ANOTHER hobby!!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RReid on January 05, 2022, 12:45:48 AM
Quote
You could line up a whole array of those into fancy patterns and it would look like brass Kumiko...
Or an M. C. Escher piece.  :-\ :) :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 05, 2022, 12:50:06 AM
Quote
You could line up a whole array of those into fancy patterns and it would look like brass Kumiko...
Or an M. C. Escher piece.  :-\ :) :ThumbsUp:
Hmmm, an Escher steam engine.... triple-acting, mounts to both top and bottom of the base plate, exhaust comes out before you open the throttle?!  :insane:
 :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steam guy willy on January 05, 2022, 03:32:13 AM
Hi Chris, talking about Escher... this is a chair I made sometime ago .......people were quite wary of sitting on it , thinking it might fall over ?!! it ishowerver perfectly stable !!!

Willy
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 05, 2022, 03:50:56 AM
Hi Chris, talking about Escher... this is a chair I made sometime ago .......people were quite wary of sitting on it , thinking it might fall over ?!! it ishowerver perfectly stable !!!

Willy
Love it!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on January 05, 2022, 12:03:01 PM
Great looking chair! Does it tend to rotate when heavier users sit on it, at all? (If it is solid steel or aluminum please disregard the question)  :Lol:
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 05, 2022, 03:18:59 PM
Got the rest of this batch of brackets shaped, then moved to the vise to snip through the ends to free them from the bar.
(https://i.postimg.cc/wxsXdn56/IMG-0668.jpg)
Parts so far, last couple to part off then can do so cleanup with a file
(https://i.postimg.cc/dt2GhdSp/IMG-0669.jpg)
Here is where they go on the engine, just below the cylinders on the ends of the frames.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Ghwk3zzv/IMG-0670.jpg)
Two more longer pairs for the ends of the frames to make, then I'll start drilling for the mounting screws. Then, start making the brackets for the other two catwalk levels (one just below the lay shaft, one at the base of the engine beds).
(https://i.postimg.cc/VL3dnnkY/DSC_7603.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on January 05, 2022, 03:28:33 PM
Those are some pretty sharp-looking brackets, Chris!  Well done!  :popcorn:

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on January 05, 2022, 05:52:34 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 06, 2022, 05:49:20 PM
Thanks guys!  Got the holes drilled/tapped in the brackets (holes in the ends are for the outer cross bars) and a coat of paint on them. Nice tinging herd (would be thundering if a lot bigger, this small they just Ting)
(https://i.postimg.cc/HkxV15m5/IMG-0673.jpg)
and started assembling them onto the engine frames...
(https://i.postimg.cc/y8bW1d6G/IMG-0676.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dan Rowe on January 06, 2022, 06:36:56 PM
Wow Chris, just use that mill like an Etch A Sketch and crank out nifty brackets.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

Cheers Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: wagnmkr on January 06, 2022, 06:51:12 PM
Another batch of lovely parts!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 06, 2022, 07:25:53 PM
After the whole batch of etch-a-sketching, drilling, tapping, bolting on, the top level of the brackets are in place ready for the outer rim. For that, I have some lengths of aluminimaximinium  :) right angle channel for the straight sections, will bend up some bar for the curved corners.
(https://i.postimg.cc/zB6fCDPQ/IMG-0678.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on January 07, 2022, 02:28:22 AM
Might be an idea to hide the shop elves' basketball once you get the rim on. Otherwise they'll be shootin hoops and you'll have ball imprints in your paint!

Brackets and engine are lookin good!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 07, 2022, 02:31:56 AM
Might be an idea to hide the shop elves' basketball once you get the rim on. Otherwise they'll be shootin hoops and you'll have ball imprints in your paint!

Brackets and engine are lookin good!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Hmmm, that explains the noises from the shop, I put the rim pieces on before heading out earlier....   :facepalm2:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 07, 2022, 04:53:42 PM
Yesterday the straight sections of the catwalk rim went on (still need to be drilled for the railing posts), this morning started in on the curved sections at the corners. Used the same ali angle channel, and bent it around a section of pipe slightly smaller than the radius of the curve needed. The first one I started as is, but it was pretty tough to bend and keep straight. So, finished that one by heating it with a torch and letting it cool to soften it again and tapping it down on the anvil to straighten it. The rest of the bars were annealed first - with the ali I was worried about overheating it, but I noticed that as it got hot the flame took on a bit of orange around the metal, and the bar curved just slightly as the stresses in it relaxed so stopped heating there. That seems to be a good spot, was not soft enough to bend in one go.
(https://i.postimg.cc/jqGbppsQ/IMG-0680.jpg)
Made up four of them, and marked lengths/trimmed to fit the spaces. Drilled them for 2-56 screws at the ends so I could screw on little brass connector blocks behind them.
(https://i.postimg.cc/WbgvT5zR/IMG-0681.jpg)
Liking that look, so will do the rest of the connector blocks. Also need to take the straight sections off to drill for the railing stanchions, which were made in a big batch last spring when the little platforms at the pump level were made. The top of the channel is slightly higher than the top of the brackets, leaving space to drop in some .025" thick aluminum sheet for the catwalk decks - need to do some tests to find best way to cut/smooth the sheet stock to fit. Probably will use aircraft snips to rough cut, then sand/file the edges smooth and to fit the openings.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 07, 2022, 06:38:28 PM
The rim is all on for the upper catwalk:
(https://i.postimg.cc/qMrgLwFr/IMG-0686.jpg)
And also did some more timing tweaks, this time on the lower IP cylinder inlet valve to open it earlier, running nice and slow, almost got all of it smoothed out, still a little more tuning to go...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suEFnvdmkCg
Next step will be to start making the floor panels for the upper catwalk.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on January 07, 2022, 07:00:59 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on January 07, 2022, 07:15:00 PM
Pretty amazing Chris!

Love the catwalk frame.  You're getting mighty close!

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 07, 2022, 07:48:19 PM
Thanks Kim/CNR,
The brackets and frame have come together a lot faster than I thought they would, gives it quite a different look. The second catwalk is about the same size/shape, just shorter brackets since the frames angle out. The lower catwalk will be a more complex one, it steps in and out in places.

I'm going to make the decking panels, but leave the front one un-bolted for now, till all the valve tuning is done, since it restricts access for wrenches.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 07, 2022, 09:57:43 PM
Got the cardboard templates for the deck panels cut/trimmed to fit:
(https://i.postimg.cc/d1r7nxm2/IMG-0689.jpg)
Then transfered those shapes to the aluminum sheet stock (have several widths of .025" thick sheet) and cut them out with aircraft snips, the inside corners and recessed flats were rough snipped then filed flat/square in the vise. All are fitting well now, tomorrow will drill some screw holes for holding them in place.
(https://i.postimg.cc/6QD2rXR6/IMG-0691.jpg)
It doesn't show in the pictures, but the angle channle around the rim was drilled for the railing stanchions before they were fitted. Not going to fit the stanchions till last, want to keep access in to the engine as easy as possible for now.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: wagnmkr on January 07, 2022, 10:33:52 PM
OK, so when did you invent the 32 hour day and didn't tell us?
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 07, 2022, 10:48:32 PM
OK, so when did you invent the 32 hour day and didn't tell us?
Remember the old Sherman and Peabody cartoon? I built the Wayback Machine for them...   :Lol:


I think it helps having the shop in the back room in the house, so easy to pop back and make a part anytime. Being retired doesn't hurt either.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Don1966 on January 08, 2022, 02:37:59 AM
Damn Dog,……… :Love:


 :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 08, 2022, 03:18:29 AM
Damn Dog,……… :Love:


 :drinking-41:
Don
Voof!    :drinking-41:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steamer on January 08, 2022, 03:21:27 AM
Gorgeous!

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 08, 2022, 04:05:18 PM
And moving on to the middle level catwalk brackets, just like the first ones but shorter horizontally...
(https://i.postimg.cc/TPB8TR56/IMG-0692.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Jo on January 08, 2022, 04:50:34 PM
I can tell you love making catwalk brackets  Chris :mischief:

I wonder if doing it by hand is faster or slower than by CNC  :noidea:

Jo
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 08, 2022, 05:44:03 PM
I can tell you love making catwalk brackets  Chris :mischief:

I wonder if doing it by hand is faster or slower than by CNC  :noidea:

Jo
At least there are only a couple dozen of these, with just a couple setups for each batch. What I REALLY love (  :paranoia: ) is making crawler tracks by the hundred.....  :ShakeHead:
Slower by hand, somewhat, since I am putting the bars in/out on every setup, so I can CountNumberCranks (my version of CNC) from the starting point for each setup. Also I take more breaks than the computer would! My way is more rewarding to me since I am making them, vs watching a machine make them - I use a 3D printer now for some stuff, but its boring to watch. I have more fun turning the cranks.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on January 08, 2022, 05:53:39 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steamer on January 08, 2022, 06:24:31 PM
And moving on to the middle level catwalk brackets, just like the first ones but shorter horizontally...
(https://i.postimg.cc/TPB8TR56/IMG-0692.jpg)

I really like that fixture.   That would work well on the F1.....

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Roger B on January 08, 2022, 09:17:32 PM
Looks and sounds better every time  :praise2:  :praise2: It must be difficult trying to compensate for the expansion of steam with compressed air  :headscratch:  So many fine details  :wine1:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Craig DeShong on January 09, 2022, 03:42:52 AM
I can tell you love making catwalk brackets  Chris :mischief:

I wonder if doing it by hand is faster or slower than by CNC  :noidea:

Jo
At least there are only a couple dozen of these, with just a couple setups for each batch. What I REALLY love (  :paranoia: ) is making crawler tracks by the hundred.....  :ShakeHead:

I will no longer bitch about nine cylinders  :hammerbash:

Love the catwalk,  it’s going to look superb with the stanchions in place.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 09, 2022, 04:50:23 AM
Thanks guys! 


Roger, there are 14 valves controlling inlet and exhaust, so lots to get timed for center and edges. Plus two balance valves leading from the main throttle to the IP and LP cylinders added for the compressed air running. Lots to tune!


Craig, lots of brackets, but no where near the precision needed of your 9 cylinder assemblies!


All getting close to done all of a sudden, I am kind of surprised how quickly the catwalks are going together.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: propforward on January 09, 2022, 01:14:58 PM
I am kind of surprised how quickly the catwalks are going together.

I’m not. You’re a workshop wizard!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 09, 2022, 07:56:03 PM
I am kind of surprised how quickly the catwalks are going together.

I’m not. You’re a workshop wizard!
Hopefully a better one than Bullwinkle was!
(https://i.postimg.cc/Xv6rdt2W/Bullwinkle.jpg)
 :Jester:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 09, 2022, 07:58:25 PM
Continuing on with the second catwalk brackets, got all the milling cuts for the profiles down except for parting them off from the bar:
(https://i.postimg.cc/T3DyyTJQ/IMG-0693.jpg)
This batch is definitely going quicker now that I have the procedure down, and have combined some steps to reduce the number of  times they need to be put in/out of the jig. As they say, Practice Makes A Mess. Or something like that...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on January 10, 2022, 03:57:58 AM
Great looking chocolate moulds! Re the saying - I thought it was "practice makes Ford Prefects" - at least that might be it if you were from Dagenham in the UK..... :Lol:

Just kidding, the brackets look great.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Nice to see Bullwinkle's cameo appearance!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 10, 2022, 09:01:11 PM
After cleaning the 'moulds' off after CNR gave the elves the chocolate idea   :slap: , got them cut off the main bars and painted, got the first set installed onto the engine:

(https://i.postimg.cc/C1S3DXcB/IMG-0694.jpg)
Get the rest on, then can start on the rim angle channel like on the top level...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dan Rowe on January 10, 2022, 09:20:50 PM
Hi Chris, nice work, the catwalks really show the scale of this massive engine.

Cheers Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 11, 2022, 06:45:00 PM
More tuning work on the valves, think its about there. Its running nice and slow, and a lot smoother now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6KILoVFCMU
 :whoohoo:

Also getting the second level of catwalks further along, the straight edge channels are on, ready to start bending up the curved corner sections:
(https://i.postimg.cc/R0B1fSVv/IMG-0697.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: wagnmkr on January 11, 2022, 08:02:03 PM
The sound instantly reminded me of the old Jack Lemmon movie, How To Murder Your wife. It sounds like the Globida, Globida machine. You just know I'm going to hear that all night now!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: ddmckee54 on January 11, 2022, 09:25:53 PM
sounds like the Globida, Globida machine

I always thought that was the Glopetta Glopetta machine, too many years spent driving a bellowing tractor in my youth I guess.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 11, 2022, 09:52:19 PM
sounds like the Globida, Globida machine

I always thought that was the Glopetta Glopetta machine, too many years spent driving a bellowing tractor in my youth I guess.
Dont know that one!    :headscratch:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: wagnmkr on January 11, 2022, 10:43:27 PM
In the movie, the sound came from a cement making plant I believe that was make cement for a high rise build. I may have spelled it wrong but the sound is very close.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steamboatmodel on January 11, 2022, 11:00:40 PM
In the movie, the sound came from a cement making plant I believe that was make cement for a high rise build. I may have spelled it wrong but the sound is very close.
Would that have been a "Hoffa Plant"?
Gerald.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 11, 2022, 11:26:23 PM
In the movie, the sound came from a cement making plant I believe that was make cement for a high rise build. I may have spelled it wrong but the sound is very close.
Would that have been a "Hoffa Plant"?
Gerald.
That was the odd sound - Hoffa breathing cement?!    :LittleDevil:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RReid on January 12, 2022, 12:13:32 AM
I'm confused. Are you saying that fantastic model is really a cement pumper for the Mafia?
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 12, 2022, 12:19:02 AM
I'm confused. Are you saying that fantastic model is really a cement pumper for the Mafia?
Step back into this dark alley and we can discuss it....    :LittleDevil:

Wow, this is one of the wierder side-trips this thread has taken. And that is saying something!

Back on a more model-building related topic, anyone know of a good source for some 1:32 scale plastic figures that would be appropriate for a model like this? Engineer/worker types, to place on the catwalks/ladders. Lots of toy soldiers available, not seeing much in the worker type, other than some rediculously expensive ones.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on January 12, 2022, 12:30:42 AM
Hi Chris, saw the latest video today, I think the engine sounds great! I'd say you have the timing extremely close. It could just be some more break-in running will get it 100% smooth. :cheers:  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Re your figures for the catwalks - you could try thingiverse or one of the other 3D printer sharing sites for figures of workers of the period , close to the right size, and scale them down to 1/32 in Cura or whatever slicer you use. If you print them or have them printed on a high resolution resin printer like a Formlabs or an Elegoo with 0.02 mm res they may be good likenesses with decent details. Be sure to get at least one cat, for the ___walks.  :facepalm:  :Lol:

Are any engine house staff or chief engineers shown in any of the old photos you have of the Holly engine and engine house?
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RReid on January 12, 2022, 12:59:07 AM
Quote
anyone know of a good source for some 1:32 scale plastic figures that would be appropriate for a model like this?
Did you already find these expensive ones?
https://www.blackforesthobby.com/preiser-63077-11689-scale-track-workers-usa-1-32/
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 12, 2022, 01:37:59 AM
Quote
anyone know of a good source for some 1:32 scale plastic figures that would be appropriate for a model like this?
Did you already find these expensive ones?
https://www.blackforesthobby.com/preiser-63077-11689-scale-track-workers-usa-1-32/ (https://www.blackforesthobby.com/preiser-63077-11689-scale-track-workers-usa-1-32/)
Yeah, I did see those at a couple stores - very nice, but the prices are crazy for such a small figure.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 12, 2022, 01:46:00 AM
Hi Chris, saw the latest video today, I think the engine sounds great! I'd say you have the timing extremely close. It could just be some more break-in running will get it 100% smooth. :cheers: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Re your figures for the catwalks - you could try thingiverse or one of the other 3D printer sharing sites for figures of workers of the period , close to the right size, and scale them down to 1/32 in Cura or whatever slicer you use. If you print them or have them printed on a high resolution resin printer like a Formlabs or an Elegoo with 0.02 mm res they may be good likenesses with decent details. Be sure to get at least one cat, for the ___walks.  :facepalm: :Lol:

Are any engine house staff or chief engineers shown in any of the old photos you have of the Holly engine and engine house?
Very happy with how the engine is running now!
I have been looking at the 3d model sites, have not found anything suitable yet. I have printed small pilot figures on my filament printer, but at these small sizes they dont look that good, as you say it would need a good resin type printer.
I don't have a cat for the walks, though I DO have an apult for the cat...  :LittleDevil:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on January 12, 2022, 05:12:57 AM
That is looking great, Chris! You've got the timing down pretty well, I'd say!

(I'm just going to ignore the cement sub-thread here  O:-)

Good luck finding little worker dudes for your engine.  I like the idea of printing them!

Kim 
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RReid on January 12, 2022, 03:35:29 PM
With some creative painting, and maybe gentle heating and re-bending, something like these could be made to work? At least they're inexpensive.
https://architectscornerla.com/duroedge-scale-figures
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 12, 2022, 04:46:25 PM
With some creative painting, and maybe gentle heating and re-bending, something like these could be made to work? At least they're inexpensive.
https://architectscornerla.com/duroedge-scale-figures (https://architectscornerla.com/duroedge-scale-figures)
Ooh - those are great! Enough detail to show that they are a person and not some cartoon superhero!


I did find a couple of .stl files of guys in suits elsewhere, and am going to try 3D printing them myself. The previous ones I tried were at a .2mm layer height, going to try them at .1mm, should give better results, will post pics later...

Thanks!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dan Rowe on January 12, 2022, 05:20:38 PM
Chris, back in my 1:32 scale days I liked Preiser figures they are nicely painted something I can not do well. Here is what they have now:

https://www.reynaulds.com/catalog/dept_358.aspx

Why do the railroad guys look like they just lost the train??

Cheers Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 12, 2022, 05:43:38 PM
Chris, back in my 1:32 scale days I liked Preiser figures they are nicely painted something I can not do well. Here is what they have now:

https://www.reynaulds.com/catalog/dept_358.aspx (https://www.reynaulds.com/catalog/dept_358.aspx)

Why do the railroad guys look like they just lost the train??

Cheers Dan
They do look like one is saying,     Wait, I left the train Right HERE! Did you set the brake??
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 12, 2022, 07:26:19 PM
Success on the 3D printing. I found some stl files of guys in suits, would have preferred work types but for the period the stupervisors often wore suits, can always add some in worker clothes if I find some later. Changing the printer setting to a 0.1mm layer thickness and having thier backs on the platen gave decent results with minimal support material to remove. Here they are standing on the catwalk, really shows the scale of these engines!
The files were at no particular scale, I told the slicer to scale them to the height I wanted.(https://i.postimg.cc/PrY7FLW1/IMG-0701.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Admiral_dk on January 12, 2022, 08:50:22 PM
What a great addition  ;)  though careful here - not everybody is of equal height  ;D

Curious to see how you will paint them - including skin colour (though that 'might be easy' with the boss - a pale skin  :Jester: ).

Per
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 12, 2022, 09:43:53 PM
What a great addition  ;)  though careful here - not everybody is of equal height  ;D

Curious to see how you will paint them - including skin colour (though that 'might be easy' with the boss - a pale skin  :Jester: ).

Per
:Lol:
I was tempted to use a Dilbert and a pointy haired boss set of figures...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on January 13, 2022, 12:11:15 AM
Figures look great Chris. The right side one reminds me of Alfred the butler in the 1960's Batman show. Good to hear about the apult for when need arises!  :Lol:  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

If you did use a Dilbert figure, it would be appropriate, you would have an engineer at the throttle!  :Lol: (modern usage of "engineer")
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 13, 2022, 12:42:08 AM
Figures look great Chris. The right side one reminds me of Alfred the butler in the 1960's Batman show. Good to hear about the apult for when need arises!  :Lol: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

If you did use a Dilbert figure, it would be appropriate, you would have an engineer at the throttle!  :Lol: (modern usage of "engineer")
I was an engineer, and I am working the throttle, so maybe I'll print a Catbert for the 'apult...   :Lol:
I did work with a guy who worked with the woman who the Alice character was based on.  :atcomputer:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 13, 2022, 03:15:24 PM
Yesterday and this morning got the curved corner sections and deck plates for the second catwalk made:
(https://i.postimg.cc/50373K6X/IMG-0703.jpg)
Next will be the lower catwalk, which is at the bottom of the engine beds. This one is the most complex, since it steps in and out in the center, and has sections next to the flywheels. The brackets for it have to step back in where they fit around the top of the pump frames too. The techniques will be the same for the brackets, just with more shaping.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Admiral_dk on January 13, 2022, 08:57:02 PM
I really can visualize your earlier comment about the lack of space on the Catwalk - there certainly are some areas where the 'new Members of the Team', will have to be very careful if they want to pass when the engine is running .... almost feel like  :Director:  CAREFUL There.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 13, 2022, 09:01:45 PM
I really can visualize your earlier comment about the lack of space on the Catwalk - there certainly are some areas where the 'new Members of the Team', will have to be very careful if they want to pass when the engine is running .... almost feel like  :Director:  CAREFUL There.
Well, it gets safer (not) when the railings are there to hold you close to all the moving bits!   :LittleDevil:   


Last year when I got the chance to walk around on the catwalks of the Allis engine in Boston, I got a first-hand view of how many places there were to get hands/feet caught, forehead whacked, etc. Definitely no safety officers around back then!  Same on the steam shovels - it was almost impossible to walk down the cab next to the main hoist engine/gears without leaning on them. Not a problem when not running, but if moving, yikes! It quickly explained why the old photos usually showed planks that the crews hung on the outside of the cab walls to let them go from front to back around the engine compartment.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: horst.b.0 on January 14, 2022, 06:32:56 AM
!  Same on the steam shovels - it was almost impossible to walk down the cab next to the main hoist engine/gears without leaning on them. Not a problem when not running, but if moving, yikes! It quickly explained why the old photos usually showed planks that the crews hung on the outside of the cab walls to let them go from front to back around the engine compartment.
The shovel‘s band brake linings used to contain asbestos. This was very close to the operator‘s place.  :smokin2:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 14, 2022, 07:04:31 PM
!  Same on the steam shovels - it was almost impossible to walk down the cab next to the main hoist engine/gears without leaning on them. Not a problem when not running, but if moving, yikes! It quickly explained why the old photos usually showed planks that the crews hung on the outside of the cab walls to let them go from front to back around the engine compartment.
The shovel‘s band brake linings used to contain asbestos. This was very close to the operator‘s place.  :smokin2:
On the early ones here the brake bands were lined with Elm wood blocks - must have been interesting to call the carpenter in to do a brake job on your steam shovel!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 14, 2022, 07:07:11 PM
Gotten a start on the lower level catwalk brackets. Since these step down from the engine bed to the angled frames underneath, the large ends need to be stepped in first. Did that with the parts hanging off the end of the jig. This level also has different width floor plates in several places, so more sizes of brackets to make.
(https://i.postimg.cc/hPNw1bTc/IMG-0705.jpg)
Here is a test fit of the first one, all good, so will start shaping the bracket frame next...
(https://i.postimg.cc/pXm4j19s/IMG-0704.jpg)
As before, am making the in pairs from each bar to save metal.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on January 15, 2022, 12:10:05 AM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 15, 2022, 12:49:52 AM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
:cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steamer on January 15, 2022, 02:16:21 AM
Good lord Chris!!!!1 :o

That is magnificent!!!!      :AllHailTheKing: :drinking-41:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 15, 2022, 07:24:05 PM
Thanks Dave! 


Been plugging away on the lower level catwalk brackets, down to the last couple cuts on each. There are four different shapes to the brackets on this level, and most of them step back from the upper to lower mounting holes.
(https://i.postimg.cc/zBzqKLcw/IMG-0706.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on January 16, 2022, 12:17:41 AM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steamer on January 16, 2022, 01:07:54 PM
A no insignificant challenge with a big model such as this is the weight.   No so much you can't lift it, but rather HOW do you lift it     Clearly grabbing the cat walks isn't going to be an option.       If you haven't already, you may want to think about a carry box of some sort...perhaps sooner than later.


Nice work Chris!

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 16, 2022, 01:20:40 PM
A no insignificant challenge with a big model such as this is the weight.   No so much you can't lift it, but rather HOW do you lift it     Clearly grabbing the cat walks isn't going to be an option.       If you haven't already, you may want to think about a carry box of some sort...perhaps sooner than later.


Nice work Chris!

Dave
Hi Dave,


When I made the base, I added thick corner blocks underneath so fingers will fit under the base for lifting. Early on it could be lifted by the frames, but no more. Now, two people can lift it by the base, one at each end. You are right, for traveling it will need a larger base or case with handles.


Chris
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 16, 2022, 08:33:57 PM
No shop time today - our local RC submarine squadron was at the WinterFest event in Buffalo putting on a show (okay, mainly we were just out playing for the day) at the Tonawanda Aquatic Center pool. In addition to a submarine I took along the Shrimpboat that I showed on this thread a while back, which Thomas had sent me the plywood hull kit and plans for. This was the first time out with the net towing masts in place.
(https://i.postimg.cc/cJXvhs1f/IMG-3521.jpg)
Ran great, all was terrific until a Croc (Gator? Whichever, either way was scary) that was on the run from Don1966's home town:
(https://i.postimg.cc/jjsWyWTs/IMG-3527.jpg)
The captain took one look and high-tailed it for the other side of the pool!   :Lol:

Tomorrow I'll likely get back to the engine catwalks. Maybe tonight do some - there is a big snowstorm moving in tonight that looks like it will dump about a foot and a half in this area, maybe more. Gee, I have to stay home and play in the shop.... Darn!  Nice to have the indoor shop room, it was 5 degrees F when I left for the pool this morning, a backyard shed would be crazy in this kind of weather.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on January 16, 2022, 09:02:10 PM
No shop time today - our local RC submarine squadron was at the WinterFest event in Buffalo putting on a show (okay, mainly we were just out playing for the day) at the Tonawanda Aquatic Center pool. In addition to a submarine I took along the Shrimpboat that I showed on this thread a while back, which Thomas had sent me the plywood hull kit and plans for. This was the first time out with the net towing masts in place.
(https://i.postimg.cc/cJXvhs1f/IMG-3521.jpg)
Ran great, all was terrific until a Croc (Gator? Whichever, either way was scary) that was on the run from Don1966's home town:
(https://i.postimg.cc/jjsWyWTs/IMG-3527.jpg)
The captain took one look and high-tailed it for the other side of the pool!   :Lol:

Tomorrow I'll likely get back to the engine catwalks. Maybe tonight do some - there is a big snowstorm moving in tonight that looks like it will dump about a foot and a half in this area, maybe more. Gee, I have to stay home and play in the shop.... Darn!  Nice to have the indoor shop room, it was 5 degrees F when I left for the pool this morning, a backyard shed would be crazy in this kind of weather.

Hello Chris,
Boy the Shrimp Boat looks really good with all the towers now in place, it really makes the boat look complete.

Try and stay warm and out of the snow.
Thomas
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on January 17, 2022, 12:09:48 AM
The shrimp boat looks great Chris!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

The croc may partly explain why it is difficult to find crew for shrimp boats in Tonawanda  :thinking:....or lifeguards, at the pool!  :Lol:     :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 17, 2022, 12:59:30 AM
Thomas, glad you like it, and thanks again for the kit of parts!  :ThumbsUp:




CNR, up this far north we only grow frozen shrimp!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Don1966 on January 17, 2022, 02:21:08 AM
Love the shrimp boat DOG but what happen to the gator no tail…..LOL..


 :cheers:
DON
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 17, 2022, 03:23:16 PM
Love the shrimp boat DOG but what happen to the gator no tail…..LOL..


 :cheers:
DON
Maybe thats why its so angry!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 17, 2022, 03:24:28 PM
Back on the brackets for the lower catwalk, all are shaped and drilled. Hard to get a good picture with all the shiny surfaces, will take another after tapping the holes in the ends for the rim band and getting a spritz of paint on them...
(https://i.postimg.cc/bNZQM3mS/IMG-0708.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on January 17, 2022, 03:56:35 PM
Wow Chris- great looking brackets!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Going out now to start "the artefact" as my son, its' current operator, calls our ancient but effective snowblower. Got about 150 mm / 6 inches here overnight. Not as much as the tobogganers / skiers locally had hoped for, but enough for me! Did you get the big dump the Wx folks were predicting?
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 17, 2022, 04:23:20 PM
Hey Jeff,


Just got back inside after taking my snowblower for a walk up and down the driveway. We have over a foot so far, hear we may get another 6 inches today, though it has stopped for now. Heavy powder snow, so it clears fairly easily. A week ago we got rain then wet snow, that was tough to move. Glad fr a big snowblower and a heavy parka!


Time for lunch!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 17, 2022, 04:38:31 PM
And the snowplow put 5 inches of snow back in the end of the driveway...  :shrug:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steamer on January 17, 2022, 04:58:55 PM
6" of pure unadulterated supersaturated snow....It's like trying to move a driveway covered in slurpies!

Beat the hell out of the snow blower....

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 17, 2022, 05:51:03 PM
6" of pure unadulterated supersaturated snow....It's like trying to move a driveway covered in slurpies!

Beat the hell out of the snow blower....

Dave
Better than an ice storm though - never want to see another one of those again!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 17, 2022, 08:51:27 PM
As promised, pic of the brackets after some paint
(https://i.postimg.cc/g0H2cLzb/IMG-0710.jpg)
and I've started putting them on the engine frames
(https://i.postimg.cc/sXfDMfxQ/IMG-0713.jpg)
Half are on, half to go. Lots of tiny screws!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on January 18, 2022, 12:22:21 AM
Wow, you'll have all the catwalks done soon!  How much is left to do?

Kim

PS Didn't you remove more of the insides on the other brackets?  Are the lower catwalk brackets different?
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 18, 2022, 01:17:58 AM
Wow, you'll have all the catwalks done soon!  How much is left to do?

Kim

PS Didn't you remove more of the insides on the other brackets?  Are the lower catwalk brackets different?
Hi Kim,


The brackets on all three levels are different. On this lowest level they step back at the bottom so there is less of an opening.


After this, whats left? Railings, dashpots, gauge board, the cutaway insulation walls at the top, and testing the pumps. Pretty close to done!   :cartwheel:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steam guy willy on January 18, 2022, 03:18:09 AM
Hi Chris , Could you reduce the weight by filling all the piping and cylinders and other cavities with Helium  ?!!! :lolb:

Willy.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 18, 2022, 03:33:51 AM
Hi Chris , Could you reduce the weight by filling all the piping and cylinders and other cavities with Helium  ?!!! :lolb:

Willy.
The shop elves saw your post, they are tieing strings to the corners and have entered it in a parade!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Art K on January 18, 2022, 03:13:41 PM
Chris,
I'm picturing a bunch of kids with bb guns following along taking pot shots. Everything is looking great!
Art
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 18, 2022, 06:06:44 PM
Chris,
I'm picturing a bunch of kids with bb guns following along taking pot shots. Everything is looking great!
Art
And the balloon goes whizzing off over the trees....!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 18, 2022, 06:13:58 PM
This morning I got the rest of the brackets screwed onto the engine frames, then turned my attention to the angle channel rim around them. On this lower level, there is a center section by the flywheels that sticks out farther than the rest, so there are eight corner pieces rather than the four on the other levels. Also, these corner pieces have half the radius of the others, and I don't think my trick of bending the channel around a pipe will work well with such a tight curve. So, I am reverting back to how I originally thought all of them would have to be made, milling them out of round bar. The corner pieces take a 90 degree arc, then have to straighten out to match the long straight runs, with a notched end to fit behind the straight channel so they can be screwed together.
After some time laying it out, I started milling the first pair into an offcut end of a round bar, using the rotary table on the mill with a couple sizes of end mill. The curves were first done with 90 degree turns on the table, then the straight sections run in, leaving two corner piece shapes:
(https://i.postimg.cc/kgfgVnTt/IMG-0714.jpg)
Moved the bar over to the lathe to part off the shape
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZqnKp1Qs/IMG-0715.jpg)
Leaving this:
(https://i.postimg.cc/RZM0V3LB/IMG-0716.jpg)
The corners were then cut through to seperate them, and the little inside corner left by the mill filed square so the channel will butt up against it. Here is one corner piece with some channel stock set next to it to show how it will go together:
(https://i.postimg.cc/W4ypn5LN/IMG-0718.jpg)
So, two corners down, six more to make...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on January 18, 2022, 09:56:38 PM
Tricky corner bits!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Why do I have a flashback  :zap: to the Pink Floyd flying pig airship from my yout' - re the helium / floating Holly model discussion..... :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 18, 2022, 10:15:57 PM
Tricky corner bits!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Why do I have a flashback  :zap: to the Pink Floyd flying pig airship from my yout' - re the helium / floating Holly model discussion..... :Lol:
Lemme guess, you and your shop elves have matching tie dyed shirts?   :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on January 19, 2022, 01:06:04 PM
I'm gonna turn off my phone now - it's obviously been taking photos of me and my shop elves / gnomes and posting them somewhere you can see them - that or your ESP is real strong!  :ROFL:  :cheers:

PS the shirts weren't just (another) laundry error of mine, they're genuine 1970's era tie dye......  :old::Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 19, 2022, 11:10:38 PM
And today was 'going round corners' day!
(https://i.postimg.cc/WbqjB82D/IMG-0719.jpg)
All eight are shaped, ready to drill/tap the holes in the end flanges to attach them to the straight sections (which have not been cut to length yet)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 20, 2022, 02:59:10 PM
And today is 'bolt the corners on' day!
(https://i.postimg.cc/yWqYtBTL/IMG-0720.jpg)
Two more straight sections to make for the ends, then will take them off to paint the brass corners...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: propforward on January 20, 2022, 03:32:01 PM
Magnificent.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 20, 2022, 03:34:00 PM
Thanks Stuart!
I'm realizing its a good thing I did all the valve timing work before the platforms, they and the railings would have really been in the way.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dan Rowe on January 20, 2022, 04:32:46 PM
Chris those corner bits are really nice. Is there a block of metal to make the double 90 connections that are on the outside edges of the flywheels?

Cheers Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 20, 2022, 05:25:27 PM
Chris those corner bits are really nice. Is there a block of metal to make the double 90 connections that are on the outside edges of the flywheels?

Cheers Dan
Hi Dan,


I was going to put another block at those inside corners, but things are pretty rigid without them, so decided to skip them.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 21, 2022, 04:11:47 PM
After getting the corners all painted and installed yesterday, on to 'decking day' today. So far I have all but one of the floor panels in on the lower catwalk, the one over on the left end which shows white in the picture, thats the cardboard template.
(https://i.postimg.cc/W3nCKqB9/IMG-0721.jpg)
Really changes the look of the engine! Can't wait to get the railings on, but first I need to make some hold-down bits for the floorboards on all three levels. As you can see in this picture, the Stupervisors up on the top deck are laying down on the job again...
(https://i.postimg.cc/0jyFq2x9/IMG-0722.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: ddmckee54 on January 21, 2022, 06:27:04 PM
How are the hold-down gonna keep the supervisors from laying down on the job?  You need to install some hold-ups.  Or will that just make the elves think it's OK to go pull a bank job?

(Could be that they're laying down because they are terrified of falling off the top level with no railing?)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 21, 2022, 06:30:10 PM
How are the hold-down gonna keep the supervisors from laying down on the job?  You need to install some hold-ups.  Or will that just make the elves think it's OK to go pull a bank job?
For that extra-comfortable executive standing, a wire through the floor and up through the, um, err...   :LittleDevil:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on January 21, 2022, 10:20:44 PM
Hmm....no pantleg wire in stock at McMaster Carr....might need the old Blues Brothers boot to gas pedal glue!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 22, 2022, 04:23:57 PM
Got the floor plates all installed, and have started in on the lower deck railings. Note that there is a gap on the right end - the engines had a stairway/platform set between each pair of engines, this gap is where the walkway connected. On the next two levels up, the gap moves over to the middle then the left end, following the stairs. I wont be making the stairs, they would stick out way too far.
(https://i.postimg.cc/LszhCWf3/IMG-0724.jpg)
The railing posts were made last spring when the pump-level platforms were made, so at this point its just a matter of installing them. The railing itself is 1/16" steel rod bent to shape. After getting each section fit into the holes (and re-fit when they pop out when putting in the last one), I am going back, lifting the bottom trim piece, and putting in a drop of loctite 638. When the bottom trim flange is put back down onto the deck, it squeezes the loctite around the post and deck, when set it seems to hold well. Soldering that connection was not an option since the angle flanges are aluminum.
So, 2/3 of the lower railing on, lots more to go, but it does change the look a lot!  Oh, and also drilled the legs on the figures for some wire, they are set into holes in the decking.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: wagnmkr on January 22, 2022, 04:34:00 PM
This is one beautiful looking engine!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dan Rowe on January 22, 2022, 04:38:02 PM
Chris yes that looks good and really shows the scale. I was wondering about the stairs so thanks for that detail. How do the suits get down well I guess they have to jump or swing like a monkey.

Cheers Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 22, 2022, 05:00:26 PM
Chris yes that looks good and really shows the scale. I was wondering about the stairs so thanks for that detail. How do the suits get down well I guess they have to jump or swing like a monkey.

Cheers Dan
This picture better shows the external stairs and catwalks that are between the engines - they go up to all three levels of the engine platforms. One set of stairs serves two engines.

(https://i.postimg.cc/7Ld8zPbB/DSC-7522.jpg)
Also forgot to show this picture, I printed and painted the gauge board for the end of the engine. After painting the dial marks were drawn in with a pen.
(https://i.postimg.cc/pTjNJNFP/IMG-0727.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: mklotz on January 22, 2022, 05:23:54 PM
That looks like a fairly tight squeeze around the flywheels on the lower deck.  Obviously, the flywheels aren't going to reach out and grab you but having that much metal moving close to you would still be intimidating.

The model just looks better and better with every deft touch you apply.  Thank you very much for taking the time to document your work so we could follow the evolution of this tour de force of modelmaking.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 22, 2022, 06:28:20 PM
That looks like a fairly tight squeeze around the flywheels on the lower deck.  Obviously, the flywheels aren't going to reach out and grab you but having that much metal moving close to you would still be intimidating.

The model just looks better and better with every deft touch you apply.  Thank you very much for taking the time to document our work so we could follow the evolution of this tour de force of modelmaking.


Thanks Marv!  Yeah, the spaces are close in places, back then apprentices were cheap..  :o 


Been a really fun project, got lots of tips from others here.

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Craig DeShong on January 22, 2022, 06:40:02 PM
Too bad you’re going to cover them with a platform, I presume;  and you were correct previously.  It’s going to be an uncomfortable squeeze around those running flywheels for the maintenance men!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 22, 2022, 06:41:26 PM
Well, this went quicker than I expected, got on a roll after lunch and got the rest of the railings on.

(https://i.postimg.cc/SsgZ9DZm/IMG-0728.jpg)
Sat back and looked, and aside from giving the shop a good clean and getting the lights/tripod locations figured out for some final pictures and videos, the engine itself is done!  ^-^
(https://i.postimg.cc/qqYjbgVY/IMG-0729.jpg)
All thats left is to hook up the hoses off the pumps to some pans of water, and see if it will actually pump water. It should, but all it takes is one little leak in a spot I can't get at anymore and that function is gone. In past test runs I could feel the air movement at the hoses, so its hopeful. For those who dont recall the lower pump housings (behind the little brown ladders on the base) each have sets of check valves inside, and there are manifolds that connect them to the clear hoses sticking out of the large pipes at the ends. In the above photo, the intake is on the lower right, and the output of the pumps is on the upper left.
So, will spend some time cleaning up the shop and getting all the spare bits/tools off the bench, and will try some actual water movement. With some towels handy in case it leaks! Then will set up for some finish portraits and videos...
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 22, 2022, 06:42:54 PM
Too bad you’re going to cover them with a platform, I presume;  and you were correct previously.  It’s going to be an uncomfortable squeeze around those running flywheels for the maintenance men!
At least the flywheels and other moving bits are not encased in covers, just the catwalks around them.  Hmmm, those flywheels would make a nice honing wheel for the chisels...!

Oh, and I decided against putting on the partial lagging around the cylinders, tried holding up some sheet stock and it just looks odd with a partial wall behind it. And covering it all with the full lagging like on the original? Not a chance!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steam guy willy on January 22, 2022, 07:23:21 PM
Hi Chris , That looks Wonderfull ,I really like it   great workmanship and stunning details  :praise2: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

Willy...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on January 22, 2022, 08:16:54 PM
 :cheers: Fantastic job Chris!  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RReid on January 22, 2022, 08:19:20 PM
Absolutely awesome, Chris! Congratulations!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 22, 2022, 08:22:16 PM
The shop elves yelled at me for not posting a picture with them on the engine. Okay guys, here you go!
(https://i.postimg.cc/GmsGJqpb/IMG-0731.jpg)
And after that picture, we got to work with hooking up some extensions to the water inlet/outlet tubes and filling up a pan of water on the inlet end. When I started up the engine, it immediately started drawing water up the inlet tubes, and several revolutions later it started coming out the outlet side and filling up the tank on that end!   :cartwheel: :pinkelephant: :whoohoo:   Here is a video of it running and pumping water. It looks like the flow rate is close to a gallon a minute at this engine speed, with no jets of water across the room. After I shut it down there was one little puddle at the inlet end, maybe a teaspoons worth. Not bad!!
[youtube1]https://youtu.be/qzmxfH7x9fA[/youtube1]
Incredibly pleased with its performance!  Going to play with the room lights and get out the tripod for some final photos, and I'll put up a post over on the Showcase subforum. Its been about 11 months to the actual build, plus the several years as a background project creating the 3D CAD model from the original builders blueprints.
Chris :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RReid on January 22, 2022, 08:30:54 PM
Even more congratulations!!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Roger B on January 22, 2022, 08:34:10 PM
Wonderful  :praise2:  :praise2:  :wine1: Please give my regards to the Elves  :)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: horst.b.0 on January 22, 2022, 08:47:47 PM
Congratulations, it’s such a beautiful engine, what a wonderful achievement!  :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on January 22, 2022, 10:02:53 PM
Absolutely Incredible  :whoohoo:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Admiral_dk on January 22, 2022, 10:19:01 PM
Stunning, Amazing .... I give up - out of superlatives ....  :praise2:   :praise2:    :praise2:

.... except for a minor detail - lack of colours on the staff - they do not look right   :stickpoke:

.... maybe even some dirt and signs of daily use  :thinking:

 :cheers:           Per
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: wagnmkr on January 22, 2022, 10:19:28 PM
I can't imagine how thrilled you must have been to see the first bit of water go where it was supposed to and not all over the shop floor. You will likely have to get bigger hard hats for the elves now as there heads will likely swell!.

Incredible achievement!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 22, 2022, 10:25:04 PM
Thanks very much everyone! 

And Per, a lifelike paint job on the manager figures would give me nightmares...  :Jester:   I'm still on the lookout for some figures in everyday workers clothes to replace them.

Just finished taking some more video and photos, about to post them over in the Showcase section of the forum...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Don1966 on January 22, 2022, 10:36:03 PM
Excellent in every aspect of this wonderful build Dog, you have out done yourself at every turn. It’s fascinating to watch it pump after all that work. Your the man Chris and a very skilled craftsman. When I grow up I want to be just  like you….. :Love:


 :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on January 22, 2022, 10:48:04 PM
Too cool, Chris!  :praise2:

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Larry on January 23, 2022, 02:59:14 AM
Just absolutely fantastic ! Another great build. Have certainly enjoyed following along. Your confidence and skill is to be admired.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: PJPickard on January 23, 2022, 12:38:48 PM
wow. wow. wow. wow.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: sid pileski on January 23, 2022, 02:54:27 PM
Let me add my congratulations to the list!
Very nice work, and the speed at which you make the parts is impressive too.

What's next???

Sid
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 23, 2022, 03:27:07 PM
Let me add my congratulations to the list!
Very nice work, and the speed at which you make the parts is impressive too.

What's next???

Sid
Thanks guys!  What's next?  That would be a model of the two cylinder compound Paine engine in the steam passenger ferry Sabino. Ron Ginger got us in to Mystic Seaport Museum to measure the original one this past fall, its all drawn up in Fusion and ready to go. But first, I want to do a wood carving project and another RC model, they've been waiting on the bench for me to finish the Holly.


Chris
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steamer on January 23, 2022, 03:35:56 PM
Let me add my congratulations to the list!
Very nice work, and the speed at which you make the parts is impressive too.

What's next???

Sid
Thanks guys!  What's next?  That would be a model of the two cylinder compound Paine engine in the steam passenger ferry Sabino. Ron Ginger got us in to Mystic Seaport Museum to measure the original one this past fall, its all drawn up in Fusion and ready to go. But first, I want to do a wood carving project and another RC model, they've been waiting on the bench for me to finish the Holly.


Chris

Can't wait for this one!   I was a Volunteer Engineer on the boat with this engine, ( 75 HP Paine Compound) and it will be nice to see her run again.

Dave

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 23, 2022, 04:08:10 PM
Let me add my congratulations to the list!
Very nice work, and the speed at which you make the parts is impressive too.

What's next???

Sid
Thanks guys!  What's next?  That would be a model of the two cylinder compound Paine engine in the steam passenger ferry Sabino. Ron Ginger got us in to Mystic Seaport Museum to measure the original one this past fall, its all drawn up in Fusion and ready to go. But first, I want to do a wood carving project and another RC model, they've been waiting on the bench for me to finish the Holly.


Chris

Can't wait for this one!   I was a Voluntee Engineer on the boat with this engine, ( 75 HP Paine Compound) and it will be nice to see her run again.

Dave
Yes! I should have mentioned that Dave gave me a lot of great information about how the Sabino engine works and its other machinery, pumps, valves, etc.   :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:


That build will likely start in a few weeks, have been looking ahead and ordering some 1144 for the two piece engine block. Found a great deal on a drop.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steamboatmodel on January 23, 2022, 04:18:24 PM
Let me add my congratulations to the list!
Very nice work, and the speed at which you make the parts is impressive too.

What's next???

Sid
Thanks guys!  What's next?  That would be a model of the two cylinder compound Paine engine in the steam passenger ferry Sabino. Ron Ginger got us in to Mystic Seaport Museum to measure the original one this past fall, its all drawn up in Fusion and ready to go. But first, I want to do a wood carving project and another RC model, they've been waiting on the bench for me to finish the Holly.


Chris
Hi Chris, Will you post about the Carving project and the RC model?
Gerald.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 23, 2022, 05:13:17 PM
Let me add my congratulations to the list!
Very nice work, and the speed at which you make the parts is impressive too.

What's next???

Sid
Thanks guys!  What's next?  That would be a model of the two cylinder compound Paine engine in the steam passenger ferry Sabino. Ron Ginger got us in to Mystic Seaport Museum to measure the original one this past fall, its all drawn up in Fusion and ready to go. But first, I want to do a wood carving project and another RC model, they've been waiting on the bench for me to finish the Holly.


Chris
Hi Chris, Will you post about the Carving project and the RC model?
Gerald.
Not along the way but when done, yes!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dan Rowe on January 23, 2022, 09:02:42 PM
Chris, this has been a blast to watch from the peanut gallery. One last sugestion....I think one of the suit guys should go by the gauge board. I have seen old photos of ships engineers very smartly dressed in uniform at the operating stand. My guess is even stationary engineers used to look more business like than a common laborer at least on photo days.

Now when I was working we looked like a band of ruffians in well used work clothes and that was on a good day.

Cheers Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 23, 2022, 10:01:26 PM
Chris, this has been a blast to watch from the peanut gallery. One last sugestion....I think one of the suit guys should go by the gauge board. I have seen old photos of ships engineers very smartly dressed in uniform at the operating stand. My guess is even stationary engineers used to look more business like than a common laborer at least on photo days.

Now when I was working we looked like a band of ruffians in well used work clothes and that was on a good day.

Cheers Dan
Great idea! I'll pick the one with the puzzled look on his face.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steamboatmodel on January 23, 2022, 11:24:51 PM
Chris, this has been a blast to watch from the peanut gallery. One last sugestion....I think one of the suit guys should go by the gauge board. I have seen old photos of ships engineers very smartly dressed in uniform at the operating stand. My guess is even stationary engineers used to look more business like than a common laborer at least on photo days.

Now when I was working we looked like a band of ruffians in well used work clothes and that was on a good day.

Cheers Dan
Great idea! I'll pick the one with the puzzled look on his face.
You will have to have one of the workers next to him explaining that those are the normal readings/
Gerald.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: samc88 on January 23, 2022, 11:27:17 PM

This picture better shows the external stairs and catwalks that are between the engines - they go up to all three levels of the engine platforms. One set of stairs serves two engines.

(https://i.postimg.cc/7Ld8zPbB/DSC-7522.jpg)


So when are you making the second one?

Awesome work, Id love to see this alongside the little lathe that built it, its an impressive looking engine
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 23, 2022, 11:35:05 PM
Chris, this has been a blast to watch from the peanut gallery. One last sugestion....I think one of the suit guys should go by the gauge board. I have seen old photos of ships engineers very smartly dressed in uniform at the operating stand. My guess is even stationary engineers used to look more business like than a common laborer at least on photo days.

Now when I was working we looked like a band of ruffians in well used work clothes and that was on a good day.

Cheers Dan
Great idea! I'll pick the one with the puzzled look on his face.
You will have to have one of the workers next to him explaining that those are the normal readings/
Gerald.
Yes!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 23, 2022, 11:37:46 PM

This picture better shows the external stairs and catwalks that are between the engines - they go up to all three levels of the engine platforms. One set of stairs serves two engines.

(https://i.postimg.cc/7Ld8zPbB/DSC-7522.jpg)


So when are you making the second one?

Awesome work, Id love to see this alongside the little lathe that built it, its an impressive looking engine
A second one?   :paranoia:     Well, better than making the other four that are in the row of them.... Or the seven in a row that Cincinatti once had in its Main Station pumphouse!

And the Sherline lathe at least is very easy to move over in front of the model! Lets see you do THAT with a Southbend or whatever!   :Lol:   The lathe wieghs about a tenth of the model...

(https://i.postimg.cc/d06TFg7q/IMG-0755.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: samc88 on January 23, 2022, 11:42:57 PM
Its incredible what can be done on such an unassuming bit of equipment
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Johnmcc69 on January 24, 2022, 12:26:38 AM
 :ThumbsUp:
 :pinkelephant:
 Truly incredible work Chris! I've followed along silently but, WOW...Pretty impressive.

 John
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: kvom on January 24, 2022, 01:19:42 PM
One thing I missed in this is where the rods for the pumps are connected.  Eccentric hidden away?
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 24, 2022, 02:09:29 PM
One thing I missed in this is where the rods for the pumps are connected.  Eccentric hidden away?
Hi kvom,
The pump plungers have four rods coming up around the cranks, and connect to the crossheads to the piston rods:
(https://i.postimg.cc/9MVzm2mg/Pump-Connections.jpg)
Makes them hard to see in the model, back behind all the frames and such. By taking the power direct from the crossheads, they got maximum force from the piston. The Allis engine worked the same way. The pump rod length also would keep the pump plungers aligned.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steam guy willy on January 24, 2022, 07:05:15 PM
Hi Chris , that is an interesting concept and has set my brain ticking over  !! So ..no need for heavy slide bars  I haven't seen this before !!

Willy
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on January 24, 2022, 07:58:51 PM
Hi Chris , that is an interesting concept and has set my brain ticking over  !! So ..no need for heavy slide bars  I haven't seen this before !!

Willy
Willy, the crossheads themselves still ride in guide bars in the engine frame, the pump plungers are piggybacking on the same guides.

(https://i.postimg.cc/63WqrgFM/IMG_0130.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steam guy willy on January 25, 2022, 02:58:27 AM
Hi Chris ,  Yes  of course .. makes for a more compact engine ?!!  I was looking in the previous posts  !!
Thanks

Willy
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Charles Lamont on January 25, 2022, 09:17:02 AM
IIRC it was done at a smaller scale. Fire engine pumps, for example, used a scotch yoke between the piston and pump rods, and no guidebars. On these engines the crankshaft is there only for smooth running, valve drive and synchrony; no power output.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: flopearedmule on April 26, 2022, 11:11:34 PM
Hey Chris
Sorry I'm late to the party.
I just spent some time and got caught up.  This model is great!  Very nice work.
Congratulations!! :pinkelephant:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 26, 2022, 11:22:47 PM
Hey Chris
Sorry I'm late to the party.
I just spent some time and got caught up.  This model is great!  Very nice work.
Congratulations!! :pinkelephant:
Thanks!!   :cheers:
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