Model Engine Maker
Supporting => Vehicles & Models => Topic started by: Dan Rowe on November 29, 2021, 01:22:20 AM
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The real start of this design is the Graham Shay engine.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-281121164744.jpeg)
I had spent a bit of time thinking and discussing Shay shop number 10 when Regner made a model of it several years back. The photo is the only engineering information available except the Lima Numerical Record lists the engine as 8" x 8" and the drivers are 24". All the rest of the engineering information on Shaylocomotives.com is educated speculation based on catalog data.
The photo is nearly straight on so using the driver diameter I scaled it in cad and started the drawing process.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-281121164952.jpeg)
Now I have to think of how I will use each bolt I can see in the photo for a prototypical use. The Lima Shay frame drawings start with steel I beam frames none of the wood frame drawings exist. There are a few key photographs of early Shays that I will show as this built progresses.
Cheers Dan
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Always liked this one...looking forward to watching this progress!
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Always fascinating to see how mechanisms developed. Will be watching along!
Chris
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I also am looking forward to this build, and will be following along.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Look forward to this build.
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Oh man - this should be interesting :ThumbsUp:
Where is the :popcorn: and :DrinkPint:
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Is the model in your picture the Regner version or one you built?
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Thanks, everyone for the interest in this build I will try and catch the thread up to date with the build.
Chris the model engine is a very rare Grahan Shay made by Gail Graham over 20 years ago as best as I can remember. It belongs to a friend of mine for who I am doing the metalwork. Bob is doing the woodwork to my design in his shop. I will be making a crude frame as a platform for the machinery to get the fit all right then we will combine the two parts of the build. Bob has been sending me detail photos to include in this thread.
I scaled the drawing knowing the drivers are 24". I took the right truck box used on S/N 181 the oldest Shay I have drawn and some of the critical dimensions and added them to the photo. That is a close match to my eye. I measured the boiler diameter as the rivet seam just shows on the forward edge of the front cab post. I get 42" not the 48" listed on Shaylocomotives.com.
I also added the scaled-up Graham to see how it would look again that is good to my eye for the engine.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-291121143137.jpeg)
I started the drawing with a 2" boiler that would be close scale 42" and I remembered that the Graham engine needs a bit of steam as it has a 1/2" bore and a 5/8" stroke. I did not have enough steam with a 2" boiler with the Sykes and the Hackworth Graham engine so I decided to stretch the frame for a 2.5" boiler to make sure that there was enough steam capacity For the steam engine.
Cheers Dan
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This is going to be so interesting to follow.
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I want to point out a few unusual features on this early Shay the fourth one built and the first believed to have a builders photo. The engine has the valve chest extend beyond the cylinder cover. This is typical of very early Shays S/N 181 with a 2-7x7 engine that has the same feature. I wondered about this for some time and I just kept ordering old cylinder cards until I found the old 10 x 10 cylinder with this feature. Well, it is a double D slide valve. The steam passage is straight perpendicular to the valve face top and bottom. There are two exhaust ports that connect to a common exhaust passage. The top valve covers the top exhaust port and controls the top steam passage. The lower valve works the bottom end. Why did they use a very old design? I do not really know but they were building sawmill steam engines with the same double D slide valve so they simply went with what they knew how to build. The 8 x 8 double valve cylinder card does not exist and neither does the 7 x 7. I had to add the feature to my drawing of S/N 181.
The wood frame is not straight it is bent up in the middle. Why who knows. The sawmill certainly did not cut the heavy timbers that way. They must have used greenwood and used the bridge timbers which have 4 vertical rods to bend the frame to the position in the photo. I thought about the curve of the camera lens but I added straight lines to the building in the background and they do not have any curve. This detail will not be in the model.
Now to the trucks. The right bearing box known as the truck box in Lima forms is a very simple casting the base has the usual bolt tabs on each side but they are missing on the top. The face of the box is plain without any stiffing ribs. The oil holes are simply drilled in the face and just above the lineshaft bearing cover. The left bearing box known as the pedestal on Lima forms can not be seen, but there is a photo of S/N 21 that shows this detail which I will show when we get to the truck build.
Finally, look at the pinions. They are rear of the bull gear not in the usual position forward of the bull gear. This means we will have to reverse the engine to make the reverse lever work correctly. Not really a problem with a two cylinder Shay.
Cheers Dan
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Looking forward to seeing a diagram of that double-valve setup, hard to visualize it. Were the two sliders independantly adjustable? If so, was that part of the reason maybe, to tune the sliders to the ports? We have had many cases where a slider for a model had to be re-made to get the gaps/solid parts the right dimensions.
That center span on the frame looks like the way a modern long flatbed trailer does, with the arch in the middle. Helps take the load of the boiler/engine in the middle maybe?
Great stuff!
:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Hi Dan, Maybe the frame constructors used a crowned beam assuming the great weight of engine and boiler mid-span would eventually cause it to sag to a straight condition. Better that way than to build it straight initially and have it sag below straight in use. Just food for thought. It's an interesting Shay! :cheers:
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Chris. here is Card 1649 the 10' x 10' double D cylinder to show the old style. I did not track down the valves or the valve rod so all we know is what is shown. I think they would have been able to adjust the valves independently but that is something that would take further research.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-301121150116.jpeg)
CNR yes that must have been what they were thinking. Only S/N 9 and S/N 10 had the bridge timbers to warp the frame so I guess they decided it was overkill.
Cheers Dan
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Interesting setup. By that time d valves were well understood, wonder what they were thinking?
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Chris, the only reason I have ever come up with is Lima OH was really back in the sticks in the 1880s it might have been a simpler pattern and core for a small machine works to produce so they turned the sawmill engine upright and sent it into the woods for more trees. :ROFL:
Cheers Dan
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The only thing I can find similar is this:
(https://i.postimg.cc/kXhK90tp/Long-Slide-Valve.jpg)
It does show the two valves in the bottom diagram, only advantage I can see would be keeping the passages short in a very long cylinder like a riverboat one. Maybe Graham worked on a riverboat before moving to Ohio?!
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Chris yes I believe the double D valve is a variant of the long slide valve which was invented by William Murdoch in 1799.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slide_valve
Cheers Dan
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This will be the first Shay that I will be using 3D for the whole project. I am still using 2D as I know the program I use really well and I know how to get the line weights set to make the drawing look good in print.
Here are the wood frame parts are shown exploded to show the wood construction details.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-011221144703.jpeg)
Here is the model frame in Bob's workshop.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-011221144932.jpeg)
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-011221145419.jpeg)
Cheers Bob and Dan
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Great start on the free range steel (aka wood) parts!
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Dan......in reply message #8 [29/11] shows another pair of 'steel?' structural rods....were these adjustable so as to act in tension?
Derek
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Derek, yes those are steel truss rods which is a standard Shay feature. The rod that ends at the frame is really a U shape that has both ends attached to a flange with 3 holes just below the frame. The center hole has a single rod that bends at the queen post and attaches to the other U rod wrapped around the other end of the frame.
This assembly is adjustable and will add to the bend in the middle of the frame. Early steel I beam frames had a similar detail. Later steel I beam frames have 5 separate rods per side, not the U system.
This will be a working assembly on the model so details will be covered in this thread.
Cheers Dan
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One of the first metal parts I made was the stake pockets. This was a fairly straight forward process. I worked out a set of lathe tools to make the details on a steel tube that I made for the work. I liked the profile so I used a slitting saw to cut it in half and make the rest of them.
Here they are with the backing plates ready for silver solder:
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-021221133951.jpeg)
I bent a section of 2mm key stock and flattened the end and taped it for a 2-56 bolt for a hold down arm for my ceramic soldering plate.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-021221134112.jpeg)
I removed the middle section of the backing plate and filled the inside for the half round section of the maple posts.
I used a scrap piece of wood to clanp the piece and act as a drill guide to drill the holes for the U strap.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-021221134446.jpeg)
I made another drill guide to get the lower bolt holes in the correct location.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-021221134547.jpeg)
Here are photos of Bob adding them to the frame.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-021221134243.jpeg)
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-021221134345.jpeg)
Now sure that all looks like it went to plan but I forgot to measure the height of the part and Bob noticed that things were not fitting correctly. After a long conversation over the telephone, I was looking at my drawing and Bob was looking at the real part. We finally worked out that someone had a bad day at the Loco Works and made the part too tall. Well, way too much work was done by Bob on the oak frame to start over so we had to come up with ways to fix the problem.
I still have to figure out how I will get the steel truss rods past the extra long stake pocket as the stop piece for the truss rod was already installed which will be in the next post.
Cheers Bob and Dan
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Here is the photo with notes as to what I have decided to do with the visible frame details. The front of the loco is not in the photo so I just made front and back a mirror image.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-031221145009.jpeg)
The angle line is on the front and back truck and looks like it goes from the top bolster to the deck? I have no idea what it is for. The rest of the things except for the extra large hat rack will be used in the model and shown in detail as we get to the part.
The truss rod is a U section at the top of the frame so it needs a stop to keep it in place. The early steel frames had a similar U rod and a casting riveted to the I beam. Here is my take on the same part for a wood frame.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-031221145820.jpeg)
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-031221150148.jpeg)
Here is Bob's shop work installing them flush with the top of the frame so the decking will cover the thin section.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-031221150335.jpeg)
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-031221150601.jpeg)
Cheers Bob and Dan
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Hi Dan,
That 'hat rack' is just like fittings I've seen on steam shovels and Lombards, its a hose hanger for water hoses used to draw water from creeks and ponds out in the woods to refill the feedwater tank.
Chris
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Hi Chris yes later Shays had a series of small hat racks on the left side that are attached to the running board brackets. These would hold a 2 or 3 inch hose to attach to the siphon which is really a steam injector. Here is the problem there is no reason to believe that this loco was equipped with a siphon.
I am thinking more of a rope hanger because of its size, but I do not know so I am leaving it off the model.
Duh: I forgot that the round thing between the water tank and the boiler on the deck looks a whole lot like a siphon. So yes they must have coiled the hose on a big hat rack to take on water.
Cheers Dan
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Here is the 2" siphon used on small Shays Lima card 11302.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-041221131539.jpeg)
I am planning a dummy casting to slip over the gas line to hide it in plain sight.
The photo of S/N 21 from the LEFT side is the earliest left side Shay photo I know of. There are a few key things for this build.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-041221131708.jpeg)
The bolts on the end timber made my decision to use them and the set of side bolts on the photo of S/N 10 as a timber brace rod. I simply flattened some fence wire for the two frame bolts and made a T section for the end timber.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-041221131837.jpeg)
Notice the truck pedestal bearing and the arch bars. They look just like a log truck arch bar and pedestal and are not offset like almost every other left side photo of a Shay I have ever seen.
This build will have that early feature so maybe someone will give the left side of a Shay a glance or two...if only to say 'hey that ain't right'.
Cheers Bob and Dan
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That left view show the side opening of the siphon unit nicely. Also a clearer view of the boiler. Looks like the firebox is down between the frames, just above the rails? Behind it is another metal box, is that space for shoveling and raking, and to keep embers from falling out onto the rail bed? Also noticed the side to side angled rods/wires next to the light to brace the roof. Amazing what shows in the pictures.
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The left side pic shows another box between the boiler and the water tank, above the siphon. Do you know what that is? Toolbox, condenser, giant lunchbox?
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Chris, yes I think you are correct although I had not worked it out that the siphon is vertical and we are looking at the hose connection. Normally the siphon is on its side attached to the left frame rail.
The firedoor is at the frame level or just below. There are no vertical boiler drawings available but catalog data states the number of tubes and the length of the tubes and that the boiler is a submerged tube type. That last bit took me a bit to figure out but the boiler has the upper tube sheet below the waterline so a rough estimate of the design is possible. There will be a submerged tube boiler on the model.
The box behind the boiler is wood I believe and the pit irons can be seen again. they are metal straps that support the pit floor and sidewalls. The fireman has to work the fire by standing in the pit and chunking logs in the firedoor.
Yes, we will have the little wire angle brace also. and the roof will have the same design.
The box between the water tank and the boiler is the sandbox.
Good eye Chris and thanks for working out what that round thing was. Seeing the siphon print vertical did not work for me as I already knew how a siphon was usually mounted.
Cheers Dan
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That's some fine detail work :praise2: :wine1:
Can you say a little about your ceramic silver soldering support?
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I was going to ask the same about the soldering grid, looks really useful!
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The ceramic grid is what another steamer was experimenting with several years back for a burner. The grill was not in production even back then and I just got a new book on ceramic burners so I will follow those instructions. The book is "Ceramic Burners for Model Boilers" by Alex Weiss and I think it is worth buying if you are considering a ceramic burner.
They make a great soldering pad which is also what the ceramic honeycomb recommended in the book is used for.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-051221090452.jpeg)
Cheers Dan
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Found on ebay and bought! Thanks!
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Here is a photo in my collection of S/N 8 which is where we found roof details and some more truck details. I wish the guy on the running board did not have his foot in the way.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-061221161056.jpeg)
And here is S/N 9 the only other Shay known to have a timber truss.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-061221161240.jpeg)
This is the model roof in Bob's hand ready for trial fitting to the frame.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-061221163235.jpeg)
Cheers Bob and Dan
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I used a tapered milling cutter to make the truss rod flange. Then the ends were filed round and back to the lathe to slice off the finished parts.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-071221155426.jpeg)
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-071221155538.jpeg)
Here is the family shot of the first shipment of parts to Bob.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-071221155806.jpeg)
Here is a pile of 1.2mm square head bolts. I made these on the Derbyshire Micromill with two slitting saw blades mounted with a spacer to cut two sides of a hex head bolt at the same time. I made special mandrills to hold the bolts. The bolts screwed into the mandrill and had a safety nut on the end. Out of a run of about 200 bolts, I only had 4 or 5 that got loose made very interesting but useless heads.
The trucks will have all square head bolts and nuts to hold the parts as that was the common Lima practice at the time.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-071221155940.jpeg)
Cheers Bob and Dan
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Are you using key stock for the square bolts? Hard to find small square stock in steel. Lots of work there!
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Paul, I have lots of square key stock in several sizes but mostly for nuts. The pile of bolts started as hex bolts and I cut new flats to make them square still it took a while most of the time was loading the holders I made for the bolts. I did not think just sticking them in a collet would work as the twin slitting saws would snap the bolt off. I admit I did not try it that way.
Cheers Dan
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Here is the 3D version of most of the parts so far.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-081221132621.jpeg)
And the model in Bob's shop.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-081221132736.jpeg)
This thread is almost caught up with reality so the pace will be a bit slower. Today I made the second batch of 1mm square nuts made from 1.5mm nickel silver fret wire. Here is 21 on a penny with a steel 1mm bolt made from 1/16" key stock. The tiny wrench fits the nuts but not the bolt.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-081221132901.jpeg)
These nuts go for the 1mm rivet bolts that will be visible to normal viewing. The same bolts hold the stake pocket bolts and the bronze wire U bolt is 1/32" phosphor bronze wire with a 1mm thread rolled on it. These are under the frame so hex nuts were used.
Here is my Levin lathe setup for the square nuts.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-081221133055.jpeg)
The tooling used is on the wood platform which normally holds chucks but I needed a tool station. The copper shim is .040" thick and was used to set the depth stop shown in the down out of the way position. The tailstock takes D or 10mm collets with a 10mm buttress thread. I have two holders for ER 11 collets and a D collet shank, The close one has the 1mm tap held in a special ER 11 collet that will #0 - #6 tap and has a square socket for the tap end. This was its first job. The other ER 11 collet holder has a #65 wire drill for the 1mm form tap. The other collet has the spot drill for starting the hole. The file is to chamfer the nut before cutoff. The tiny twist tie wire is very important I stick it in the nut at cutoff so it does not disappear into the swarf pile. (I only fumbled one maybe I will find it cleaning up)
I used the double lever slide but only have the rear cutoff tool installed. I have to make a thinner cutoff tool as the kerf was wider than the nut, but grinding a tool that thin is real tricky as the heat builds up fast on the thin section so a cooling quench is needed in less than about 2 seconds of grinding.
The star of the whole show is the 1/16" Levin WW square collet in the headstock. I have 3C adapters to use both WW and D collets in the headstock. The normal drawbar for the adapters only works with the manual 3C collet closer. I have the quick 3C closer mounted and I made longer drawbars to use so I do not have to remove the closer to use the smaller collets in the headstock.
Not shown is the small wood dowl used to push the wire against the material stop for the chamfer and cutoff step.
Cheers Bob and Dan
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The reason I gave a very detailed procedure to make the 1mm square bolts is the first batch I made with a 0-5mm Albrecht keyless chuck. The second batch was giving me trouble with the drill, it was drilling way oversize.
This made me take a close at the chuck and the jaws of the chuck were just the slightest bit off when fully closed. This is why I went for as much accuracy as I could get with the tooling I have and it worked. Well at least until the drill broke and I had the drill chucked on the spiral to keep it short so the drill broke and took out the ER collet also.
Not to self, buy better ER11 collets. Also, learn how to clean an Albrecht chuck.
Here is a close-up of one I made today the E of LIBERTY on the Lincon side of a penny can be seen in the middle of the nut.
I really did not know the corners were a bit round before I made a 48X close-up of a nut.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-091221121433.jpeg)
Cheers Dan
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Here is the frame up to date in Bob's shop. The square block is to make sure the boiler will fit the frame.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-091221160723.jpeg)
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-091221160834.jpeg)
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-091221160953.jpeg)
Cheers Bob and Dan
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Guys that is looking great!
Dave
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Looking great! The roof parts look like white ash, or oak?
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Thanks, guys for following along with this build.
Chris I checked with Bob and he made the roof from basswood. I thought it was ash also. The main frame and wood truss are oak and the upright posts are maple and are 5/32" or 4mm square.
There was not really any way to figure out the depth of the main frame beam so after scaling the wood truss to 1/4" square I made the frame rail 5/16" wide. Well, that wound up to be a bad choice.
The angle boards on the log bunk have 3 visible support brackets the 2 on the vertical posts worked fine, but the one that shows the lower bolt in front of the wood truss was an issue.
The space between the cab post and the wood truss is 1/16" which is how wide the log bunk boards are. When I finally got around to drawing this in 3D I noticed the lack of space to fit the bracket for the angle board. Our first plan was to cut the bracket at an angle and cover the goof with logs.
After a bit of consideration, we decided to raise the log bunk to clear the wood truss. I thought that I could use the same angle brackets I had sent Bob but after a bit of time on the drawing board that was not going to work because of the board spacing.
I made a new set of longer maple posts and milled the half round section to make it easy for Bob and made a new set of angle brackets.
A spot of luck was that I could use the same drilling fixture I used the first time because there was just enough room to add the extra hole needed.
Here is the fixture in action, the extra hole can be seen in the vise.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-101221063733.jpeg)
The new parts should get to Bob by Monday so now this thread is up to date.
Cheers Bob and Dan
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I got a start on the trucks today. I cut a square channel from a section of hot rolled steel 1" x .25" to make the pedestals which is what the left truck bearing box is called on a Shay. This is the early version with the arch bars in the same plane like a freight or log truck.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-151221142020.jpeg)
The top channel is for a Shay project that will be getting restarted soon. Nothing like building 4 Shays at one time. I need to hire a bunch more shop elves soon.
Here are the parts ready for the fancy bits in the middle.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-151221142211.jpeg)
Cheers Bob and Dan
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You are both productive - sometime it helps "keeping deadlines", when more are involved.
Kind of funny to see the origin of these locomotives - most I have seen also ran on a public line, so apperance was deemed important too - but as these where 'just workhorses in the woods', so 'cheep and easy to make' where more important in the beginning .... or so it appears. Another thing would be that in a lumber yard you got a plentiful cheap resurce to build with - so they only used metal where it was needed.
Per
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Per, yes the early Shays were crude and it took a few years to work out some of the weak parts of the design. Then starting around shop number 100 they started making them look fancy with fluted domes and fancy stacks. The ornamentation was dropped about 1900 and they became plain but sturdy.
Bob fitted the new maple posts and made oak boards for the log bunk. The angle brackets will fit this time.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-161221165443.jpeg)
I made cut the arch and tie bar stock with my die filer set up with a hacksaw and cleaned up the rough cuts on the mill. I had to think about the pedestal bearing to come up with a plan so I was stalling with easy parts.
Cheers Bob and Dan
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Oh man, what a bit of paint and oil (on the wood) will do to apperance => looks really good.
:popcorn: :cheers:
Per
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Per, thanks yes the wood is looking good. I mentioned to Bob that I really like the look of the oak, he cut it with a band saw and it left the blade marks which did not get sanded. Bob is planning to redo the roof boards in oak which would have been very common around Lima OH in the 1880's.
Cheers Bob and Dan
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So which of you or Bob gets to keep the finished model? Terrific progress.
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Chris. the Graham Shay engine belongs to Bob and he hired me to build a set of trucks to go with the engine. I picked the prototype because it is mostly wood. I will be making all the metal parts including the boiler for Bob. The boiler is a design I have been thinking about for some time now so that will be a fun job.
Cheers Bob and Dan
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The third reference on the Wikipedia page for Shay locomotives mentioned this Shay and said it had a few defects.
https://books.google.com/books?id=3-bNAAAAMAAJ&pg=RA1-PA37
I have the parts of the pedestal ready for silver solder which I will have a go at tomorrow. The round center section will be a bronze bushing. The tiny section of T stock is for the oil hole. It forms the front part of the oil filler. It will be a working oiler and there will be a working adjusting bolt for the gear thrust.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-211221123327.jpeg)
Cheers Bob and Dan
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I had to clean the shop until I found my propane regulator....well that took all morning. I did get the first step silver soldered which is the bent strap and T section. I have two more silver solder steps to complete tomorrow.
Bob has the log bunk looking good. I did not send him enough angle brackets so the forward one is missing.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-221221155808.jpeg)
Cheers Bob and Dan
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Great job you guys! :popcorn:
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Looking good, I'm curious about the boiler design!
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Thanks Chris, and yes Bob's wood work is looking really good.
Paul, the first step is to think about what is known about the Shay vertical boilers......
I finished the silver solder steps today. All the strap and T section assemblies had a slot filed on the top to fit the last section. This was to hold the last tiny piece in place for silver solder. Here is one setup for the second silver solder operation and the steps shown in progression.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-231221125252.jpeg)
Now they are ready to be bored for the bronze bushings.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-231221125415.jpeg)
There are no drawings for any of the vertical Shay boilers built at Lima. There is a written description from 1884 that gives the dimensions of the boilers built at that time.
"Seven Ton."
"Boiler, upright, 44 inches in diameter by 78 inches high and contains 125 tubes 30 inches long by 2 inches in diameter, and so constructed that the tubes are submerged. Engines 7 inch stroke by 7 inch bore."
"Nine Ton."
"Boiler, upright, 48 inches in diameter by 90 inches high and contains 155 tubes 34 inches long by 2 inches in diameter, and so constructed that the tubes are submerged. Engines 8 inch stroke by 8 inch bore."
It was the statement that the boiler was constructed with submerged tubes that I did not understand until I found a drawing in an old boiler book that showed a submerged tube vertical boiler.
Using the dimensions for the 9 ton Shay and the drawing in the boiler book I drew the boiler that must have been very similar to the Shay boilers.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-231221133903.jpeg)
The design for this build will be a 2.5" copper tube with a reducer fitting for the upper smoke box. It will have nine 5/16" tubes rolled into the tube sheets and a dry firebox. I will show the drawings when I get to that part of the build.
Cheers Bob and Dan
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Hi Dan, I was another puzzled by the boiler description. The picture makes it clear now. It will be a trick to solder, but I am sure you have a plan.
You and Bob are doing a great job of an early historic engine. It’s shaping up to look way better than the original. Great job, and it’s great to follow along.
MJM460
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If anyone is confused about the "submerged tubes" boiler(as I most certainly was) at this link there is an illustration that cleared it up for me. Note that there is a reference to KN Harris' book about a submerged tube boiler, I have that book somewhere I need to dig it out.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertical_fire-tube_boiler
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Bob finished the log bunk. I am glad he cut the angle boards because it was not easy in 3D cad but my fingers were not in danger.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-271221145202.jpeg)
The forward two angle brackets are missing and I will send them to Bob in the next batch of parts.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-271221145343.jpeg)
I cut the stock bronze bushings down from 1/4" to 7/32" so the sides of the pedestals had a little more thickness. The 1/8" hole in the bushing was just right for a 6-40 form tap so that gave me a method to mount the bushing in the lathe to trim it and threads for the end cap.
Here is the first one. I did not take any photos of the process but I have 3 more to do a photo shoot.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-271221145526.jpeg)
Cheers Bob and Dan
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Wonderful. :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Thanks Chris.... my speed is nowhere near what you get done in a day, I would need better shop elves. They keep waving the union contract at me.
Here is a nifty laser center finder. The dot looks smaller in person and it is much better than using a center point as there are no shadows to make it hard on old eyes with glasses and a visor to see. I used some square stock on the sides so the chuck-jaw pressure did not crush the thin section.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-281221141657.jpeg)
The next step was a spot drill to center, than progressive drills to 5mm which is as large as my chuck goes. The final step was the micro boring bar. Nothing like doing a small hole with an intermittent cut on a silver soldered piece....blind.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-281221141825.jpeg)
I used a 6-40 form tap for a mandril to trim the bronze bushing.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-281221142002.jpeg)
The final lathe step is to cut the bushing to length. My go to cut off tool is the inverted tool on the lever slide.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-281221142133.jpeg)
Cheers Bob and Dan
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No matter the speed - you are both doing well with this model :ThumbsUp:
:popcorn: :cheers:
Per
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Thanks, Per slow but steady is my usual pace these days.
I finished the pedestal bearing caps today. They started as a hinge pin in my steel bits box. The pin was turned to diameter, then 1/16" on the end was turned to .138" for a 6-40 thread. This left a little less than 2 threads after the thread relief was cut on the end. I drilled the threaded end 1.3mm to clear the M1.2 adjusting bolt. Having a micrometer stop came in handy to drill this hole .050" deep.
The ends were cut off and two more pieces were made. I used the cutoff threaded piece to mount the end caps to drill and tap the hole and make the bolt boss.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-301221140102.jpeg)
I do not have any M1.2 hex bolts so I used a flat head Philips head screw till the hex bolts arrive.
A brass pad will be between the adjuster bolt and the end of the axle to take up the gear thrust...just like the real one.
I was using an abrasive cutoff saw to trim the pieces from the hinge pin and I did not want it to drop off and get lost so I used a bushing on the bench that had been taped 6-40 to have a handle.
Well, the bushing got hot no surprise there but it started leaking oil. I did not know that they were Oilite bushings, I bought them surplus years ago and have used them on several projects. It is a good thing that I have always pressed them in a hole as silver solder is out of the question.
Cheers Bob and Dan
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A bit more progress on this build, Bob remade the roof with oak to match the rest of the wood frame and the deck planking is going down.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-130122135406.jpeg)
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-130122135521.jpeg)
I made a bending and drilling fixture for the truck here is the left side first bend.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-130122135738.jpeg)
I made a special stud to mount the pedestals with one end 6-40 to attach to the bearing and the other end 5-40 to bolt it to the fixture.
Here is the second bend of the arch bar.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-130122135804.jpeg)
Here are all the bars ready for drilling.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-130122135842.jpeg)
Here is a comparison of a 1907 truck in 7/8" scale and an 1880 truck in 1:20 scale. Now I remember why I like 7/8" scale....the parts are bigger and not so many tiny bolts.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-130122140344.jpeg)
Cheers Bob and Dan
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I do enjoy all the fine details, including the background :) :) :ThumbsUp: :wine1: The development of the later truck design is quite interesting as, I guess, many things had been learnt about how to keep things working in very harsh conditions.
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Roger one of the reasons I picked this Shay to build was that I wanted to make a first generation truck. I started with the second generation of this truck which was used on S/N 181. The only real difference on the left side is the arch bars are offset on the second generation so the straight section looks more like a chair. There are not many photos that show these details because most Shay photos show the right side.
Bob has finished the frame except for the fireman's pit which is waiting until I work out the engine mount and the reverse gear. Then I will know where I can locate the pit irons. Here is the frame to date with a load of split cherry in the bunker.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-260122162022.jpeg)
I got hung up on how to machine the cast gears. I only have 4 and I have to get them true. I tried an expanding mandril for the center with no luck the runout was just too much. I spotted this article on the subject and used some of the concepts to make a dedicated bevel gear chuck.
http://precisionlocomotivecastings.com/Notes/Machining%20the%20Willamette%20Bull%20Gear.html
I started with a chunk of 1-3/8" OD stress-proof steel about 2" long. I cut one end down to have a 1/2" chucking shank so I can use it with a 1/2" collet in the lathe.
To make the jaws or clamps I cut off a 1/2" long disk and bored it to 1-1/16".
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-290122163603.jpeg)
I used a small sine bar to set the slide to the face angle of the gear. I tried to set it with a dial indicator but i was chasing the error. The photo shows the chuck body with a 10-32 screw sticking out of the center and the blank for the jaws.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-290122164419.jpeg)
It was much simpler to use a parallel to set the slide from the sine bar. I checked it with the indicator and it was spot on.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-290122164546.jpeg)
Here is the gear face angle being cut on the chuck body. It was only a two axis slide so I advanced the cut by unbolting the boring bar and moving it in a small amount.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-290122164719.jpeg)
I set up the lathe as a drill press and the headstock has a stop pin that four lock locations so perfect for a four-bolt flange. The chuck and jaws were drilled for a 2mm bolt.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-290122164913.jpeg)
Here is the gear chuck finished and ready to machine the back of the gear and drill the holes for the mounting bolts.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-290122165052.jpeg)
Cheers Bob and Dan
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Some neat setups and great work there! Oddly I correspond with the the owner of the Precision Loco Castings site and just got an email from him yesterday.
Is that auxiliary spindle a Levin product as well?
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That's some great toolmaking to hold the gears! Frame and bunker look great too. :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Thanks, guys, the problem of how to machine a cast bull gear has been on my plate for a while now. Here is my collection of 7/8" gears compared to the smaller 16 mill version of the same gear. I will be building a bigger version of the gear chuck in the near future.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-300122073455.jpeg)
Paul, yes the spindle and mount are Levin. They call it a grinder attachment. It is a 8mm WW collet spindle that Levin uses as a milling attachment on a vertical slide and the sensitive drill on a tailstock slide.
Cheers Dan
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The outer diameter of the wheel hub was nearly the same size as the gear center so I checked my 6-jaw chuck to see if it would work. It is a mix of inside and outside jaws which is a combination that is most likely very handy for watch cases but usually, I have to use a different chuck because the jaws just do not fit.....Well what a pleasant surprise the wheels held firmly by the flange and I could even chuck them the other way by the wheel tread.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-310122161930.jpeg)
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-310122162100.jpeg)
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-310122162240.jpeg)
Here is the gear faced and bored to fit the hub to register the gear center.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-310122162440.jpeg)
Cheers Bob and Dan
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The next gear did not want to run as true and I had a plan to correct that. I machined the back flat and bored the hole to about halfway. I tapped a 1/2" ball 10-32 and used it to get the gear running true. Now I could use a file to remove a casting blob on the back side of the flange. I went ahead and did the same steps to the other three gears.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-030222163445.jpeg)
I used the machined gear to check the axle length and the axle extended beyond the gear cone. The wheel fit section of the axle was about 2mm longer than it needed to be so I cut it down and shortened the axle. The first axle is before machining, the middle axle is the modified version and the right axle has the gear fitted.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-030222163717.jpeg)
Cheers Bob and Dan
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Great save, clever!
:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Great sequence, description and save :ThumbsUp:
The gears appear somewhat rough in the pictures - is that only a sideeffect of the camera or do they need extra work to clean up the teeth profiles ?
Best wishes
Per
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Thanks, guys it is always good to have a backup plan.
Per, the gears are not really all that bad, the few casting blobs can be removed quickly with a knife edge file. I was just comparing them to the 7/8 scale version and the big end of this gear is about the size of the small end of the 7/8 version. I have worked out the cutters to cut both versions. The gear for this build would need 0.3 mod cutters and the larger 7/8 version would need 0.5 mod cutters.
Cheers Dan
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That's some good set ups :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :)
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Thanks, Roger, I did not do the casting but I drew the gears. The issue is they were injected into a rubber mold to make the wax patterns. If the wax is pulled from the mold before it is completely cooled things will warp. The gears I used for the Mapleton trucks were cast directly from a printed pattern so I could just chuck them up and machine them.
Cheers Dan
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So as I suspected - it's the camera that sees a lot more than our eyes .... in this case probably light, shade and minor colour differences, that makes it look imperfect. The smaller the parts the worse this gets ;)
I have seen this a number of times, both with my own camera and the some of the pictures shared by others here on MEM.
The most important fact is that you and Bob are happy with the result :cheers:
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I thought the pinions would be a simple job as I made sure there was a chucking stub that could be drilled and reamed then removed to finish the pinion. Well, the person who added the wax sprue did a sloppy job and left wax on the chucking spud. I had to make a pinion chuck similar to the bull gear chuck. I cut off a piece of 5/8" 1144 hex stock which is starting to be my favorite steel to machine. I have a 1/2"-28 form tap that has never been used so time to try it in stressproof steel. The tap worked like a champ and I had to use the lathe to cut the outside threads which was fun as it has been a while since I had cut threads with a lathe. Here is the chuck with the sprue blob.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-090222103946.jpeg)
I drilled and reamed all four pinions with the setup. It was not a waste of time to make the gear chucks as they will go to the friend who I drew the gears for, I owed him for the gears and he has a set or two that needs to be machined.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-090222104103.jpeg)
Cheers Bob and Dan
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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The rim of the bull gears has to be drilled from the back side because it is smaller than the gear diameter. I made a fixture that has the wheel hub machined on one side and a bore hole to match the gear bore hole on the other side.
The four 1mm holes were then drilled in the drill fixture with a 5C indexer in the mill.
The bull gear was put back in the gear chuck and the drilling fixture was used to drill the 4 bolt holes.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-160222150217.jpeg)
The same fixture drilling the wheels.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-160222150315.jpeg)
Tomorrow I will make the tiny 1mm square head bolts to bolt the gears to the wheels.
Cheers Bob and Dan
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:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Just seeing this nice work Dan….. :Love:
Don
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Thanks for stopping by Chris and Don.
The first step to make the M1 square head bolts was to cut a bunch of blanks from 1/16" key stock. The bolts need to be 7mm long so I decided I did not want a full thread. I stuck the stock out of the collet 4 mm and cut the diameter to 0.79 mm for the thread roll die. I made extra because I know from experience just how easy it is to snap one of these turning the headstock spindle by hand. Even with a small lathe there is no feedback to the operator.
I rolled the threads on the blank then cut down the shanks to the full 7mm length. I lost 3 to breakage but they are small and practice makes perfect. I took a photo halfway through the production.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-190222123750.jpeg)
These are so small that my thinnest cutoff tool looks HUGE so I used the jeweler's saw to cut off the extra stock before trimming the head to size. I used a file to add the chamfered edge.
I only had 3 square nuts on hand to bolt a gear to the driver, time to make more M1 square nuts!
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-190222123851.jpeg)
Cheers Bob and Dan
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Very nice work Dan :praise2:
Those TINY bolts and nuts, made me realize how small the whole thing is => making the camera pickup ANY minor detail and make them seem HUGE ....
So I believe that your gears will require much less bed-in time than I anticipated .... if any at all :thinking:
Very much enjoying Bobs and your build :cheers: :popcorn:
Per
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Per, yes the camera can be cruel to very small work. The gears have a few casting blobs but nothing a few swipes with my smallest knife edge file can not correct.
I like to think about the size of the lathe in scale terms for fun. The lathe has a 50mm center height so for the 1:20 build it is a 1-meter center height so I could turn a scale 2-meter diameter. The biggest lathe I ever used was a 22" Leblond. I just put on my magnifier and in my mind, I am running a really big lathe.
Cheers Dan
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That's an interesting thought. So compared to the 28" Lehmann I ran at one time, my Taig is about 1/6 scale. In terms of "swing" only though, not mass!
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Neat way to look at it. So, from my shop elves point of view, my Sherline is a 48" swing lathe! Wow, bigger models!! :)
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Chris, I think you already exceded that 48" swing with the flywheels for the pumping engine.
Here is my step-by-step process for making tiny M1 nuts with 1/16" key stock. Each time I do a batch my method gets a bit more refined.
The first step is to set the depth stop for the nut thickness. This usually takes a few scrap pieces to dial it in. I use a spot drill to make a starter hole. Here is the depth stop in action the end has been chamfered and the spot drill is done. You can see the chamfer tool in the lower edge of the photo and the cutoff tool is held upside down in the rear tool holder.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-210222142531.jpeg)
I got some new #65 machine drills the depth of cut is only 5mm this drill is halfway in.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-210222142613.jpeg)
Now time for the M1 form tap.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-210222142656.jpeg)
Next up is the chamfer tool, there is a depth stop set for the lever slide so the cut just takes off the square corners.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-210222142745.jpeg)
Last up is the cutoff tool it is angled slightly so the nut parts off with very little or no bur. The wire is VERY important as the little nuts are very hard to find if they drop in the swarf pile. The drill hole was not completely removed so the process starts again with the depth stop. After about 5 or 6 nuts the drill will start to wander so the end is cut off and chamfered and the spot drill is used to start the hole.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-210222142833.jpeg)
Here are the rest of the finished M1 nuts and bolts. I made a couple of non rolled blanks before I broke down the setup to turn them just in case....
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-210222142916.jpeg)
Cheers Bob and Dan
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Nice process for the M1's. Coming out great. :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Yeah, I like smaller models, too. Following along!
Made some M1.6 studs from stainless rod, most difficult part was holding the rod to allow die cutting. JohnS
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Chris the Sherline 4 jaw scroll chuck will hold 1/16" key stock and with a back acting cutoff tool you could make the same setup.....just saying.
Alex, I like to use collets for small shafts as they grip better than chucks. I have some M1.2 studs coming up soon.
Time for the right truck box. This box has three bearings one for the axle and two for the lineshaft one for rotation and the other for pinion thrust. Rather than fitting bearings, these boxes are small so I am making them from 660 bearing bronze.
I have had a stick on the shelf for years way before the price went through the roof. I used the die filer with a hacksaw blade to rough out a section of all 4 boxes.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-230222134144.jpeg)(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-230222134234.jpeg)
Then I cut the gear angle on the front face. Now I have to figure out how to machine the rest of the box.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-230222134301.jpeg)
Cheers Bob and Dan
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It was a bit of a cold snap and too cold to work in my big shop. I only have a small space heater and it works if the sun comes out to warm everything up.
I did as much on the profile I could before I separated the stick into 4 pieces 1/2" long.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-010322143652.jpeg)
Then the tabs for the lower bolts were cut in.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-010322143717.jpeg)
The bearing cover will be made from the big piece that was cut off to make the blank. It is a tricky shape hopefully my plan will work out.
Cheers Bob and Dan
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Dan,
I'm looking at those parts and I can't but help think about the shaper I'm going to pick up today!
Nice work sir!
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cnr6400 thanks for stoping by. Paul funny you should mention a shaper that is exactly what I had on my plate for the day.
The bearing cover for the truck box has a face with a circular section, but not half a circle more like 1/4 of a circle. There is no easy way to make the shape with a manual milling machine. I have a South Bend shaper that sits in the corner and rarely gets any attention. This is why I have a shaper so I set the hand grinder in the vise with a 7/32" chain saw sharpener. This was a handy way to put a grove in the shaper tool.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-030322122850.jpeg)
Here is the shaper cutting the profile.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-030322122937.jpeg)
Then to the micro mill to saw off the section.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-030322123032.jpeg)
And the covers and truck boxes on 1/4" graph paper. Next up drill for M1 square head bolts.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-030322123119.jpeg)
Cheers Bob and Dan
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That's some neat brass work :praise2: It looks like most of your machines are getting an airing with this project :) :wine1:
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Thanks Roger, yes most of my operational machines have been involved in this project. I have not shown all of them in action as the work was common machine work. I am looking forward to seeing the gears mesh on this truck.
Cheers Dan
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I made two fixtures that lock in the bearing cover slot. The short one is the drill guide to drill the axle bearing under size for a 3-48 screw. The longer version in the photo and it is to hold the truck box so I can trim the corners to fit inside the bull gear.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-060322144935.jpeg)
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-060322145014.jpeg)
Cheers Bob and Dan
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Following on Dan......... :popcorn: ......
It appears both Chris [crueby] & yourself both use the same pixel size images which appear as near full screen page format which is great for the viewer, :shrug: but when I inspect , I cannot determine the image size
-------------------------
height: auto;
width: auto;
max-width: 95%;
bbc_img {
border: 0;
img[Attributes Style] {
width: 416px;
aspect-ratio: auto 416 / 480;
------------------------------------
When I attempt a post, & maintain less than 500 Mb, :facepalm: still turn out the size of a postage stamp
When you get a chance, could you please just confirm the pixel x pixel size
Derek
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Derek, don't know about Dan, but I scale pics to 700x525 for posting, and host them on Postimg, put link in my posts. Original images are much larger.
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Derek, I do not have a standard pixel size. The photos are hosted on another Simple Machines forum 7-8.info which is a 7/8" scale railroad forum that is for model 2' gauge railroad on G1 track. I usually just trim the image from my phone and upload it. I get a lot more comments and feedback on this forum as there are not very many folks with a full machine shop on the 7/8" forum.
Cheers Dan
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I had to run errands so, not much shop time today but I got the back of the truck box cleaned up. I know the photo makes this look big but the tool bit is 3/16" square.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-070322145254.jpeg)
Cheers Bob and Dan
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Thanks CNR,
My shop time has been hard to find because the contractors redoing the master bath and bedroom are distractions including a bunch of trips to the diy store.
Bob wanted a tin roof and when I told him I had a machine to roll corrugated sheets he really wanted a tin roof.
He sent me the first roof he made for a template and here is the roof with the first square flashing.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-230322154354.jpeg)
The square flashing for the stack did not come out as good as I wanted so now that I had made one the second attempt worked much better.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-230322154503.jpeg)
Cheers Bob and Dan
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Nice tin roof! Needs a cat and some heat under it too... :Lol:
What kind of machine did you use to roll in the corrugations?
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Chris, I made a small barrel-type sheet corrugator. Here is early testing with beer cans. There is a second roller below the infeed table.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/6/213-161020090231.jpeg)
The roof is 0.005" steel shim stock. It was heated cherry red before rolling and most of the coating flakes off leaving a well-used look. A sprinkle of water will make real rust.
Cheers Dan
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That roof really looks authentic for the period :ThumbsUp:
Can't say I've seen it on locomotives, but certainly on the vagons, from back then :cheers:
Per
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I really like the roller you've made to do the corrugation, very nice.
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Ingenious. If it weren't for the tape measure you wouldn't be able to say whether that roof was a scale model or full size.
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Thanks, guys,
Per, they never made a roof like that from the factory at Lima but Shays worked back in the woods and they were repaired with what was at hand.
John, thanks I did not do a build log for the machine here but I will fix that later tonight.
Stuart, making it look like the real thing is always the goal for a lot of modelers I got really lucky that the coating flaked like it did. I did not even know the stuff had a coating before I used the torch on it.
Cheers Dan
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The early catalogs I have from Marion Steam Shovel does show that they used corrugated roofs on the shovels in the early 1900s. The one here in LeRoy currently has a sheet steel roof, the walls and roof were replaced at some point after the original wood cab rotted out.
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Hi Chris, I have spent more time looking at the Marion log loaders which also had a curved corrugated roof. I need to make a three roll bender to make the curve sections, then I can make curved roofs a Quonset hut or a drainage pipe.
Cheers Dan
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Will the three-roll unit have the wavy rollers to bend/wave them at once, or can you bend after the wavy-ification step? :noidea:
Sounds like some great tools for doing model railroad layouts with real metal roofs! (rooves?)
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Dan, I have a collection of early Marion catalogs, took a look and there are no log loaders in those or I'd post some pictures. I do have catalogs for the Marion steam shovels, dipper dredges, plus one with placer mining barges (bucket loading with trommel).
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Chris like this one in Australia. I saw one down under in the 80s when I was there. The old farmhouses have a curved edge called bullnose.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/66/Corrugated_iron_manual_roller.JPG
Interesting that they are not in the catalog. They were on a track mounted on flat cars and a special section of track was placed between the cars to move the loader to the next car. So the loader was used for a loader and unloader.
Cheers Dan
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The catalogs do show the ballast unloaders that run along flatcars to push ballast or dirt off the cars.
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Hi Chris, they were sold as Barnhart log loaders so maybe that is why they are not in the catalogs.
Here is a brief description with a roster and a link to photos.
https://www.msrlha.org/barnhart.pdf
Cheers Dan
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Aha - you are right. Marion tended to specialize the catalogs to a type of machine, and I only collected the shovel and dredge ones. In an early Barnhart catalog found these two pages near the back (labeled a wrecker, but basically the same thing)
(https://i.postimg.cc/4NcBbMCR/Image23.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/JtCnNSbh/Image22.jpg)
Then in the back of Catalog Nbr 30 for the shovels, were these pages:
(https://i.postimg.cc/8kjysct5/Page-115.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/fWp8dsrv/Page-116.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/BbKb1JPy/Page-117.jpg)
and these three pages in catalog 50:
(https://i.postimg.cc/1RnHsT3V/Image12.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/rF5NtrW8/Image13.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/8k2b5H7K/Image14.jpg)
They may well have had catalogs dedicated to the log loaders, but I don't have them.
Hope these come in handy!
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Wow Chris, many thanks. I have a 1:24 model of a Barnhart loader still in kit form but my interest is 2' railroads at 7/8" scale now and the loaders would not work on the skinny 2' flat cars.
Now I REALLY like the wrecker, It is much narrower and the machinery house is attached to the central post. That could be built on a 2' gauge flat car. :thinking:
Cheers Dan
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Marion has quite a collection of patents that you can search through on Google Patents, they show lots of details in their machines. Takes a little digging, some are assigned to Marion, some Barnhart, also search on inventor George or G. W. King. That wrecker is a cute little one!
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I read about a method to broach a square hole with a lathe tool bit in Live Steam a bunch of years ago. It is a simple method a hole is drilled a bit larger than the across the flat dimension of the square and the tool bit is hammered in with a soft hammer. This will leave a bur in the hole that can be removed with the same drill.
One of the classes of ships I worked as an engineer had spare couplings for the motors but they were ALL not bored and did not have a keyway. I tried several methods to make keyways including broaching with the lathe but nothing worked better than the tool bit method. I would layout the keyway first and use the lathe bit to make it. Then bore the coupling.
I had to make the telescopic square shaft for this Shay which has a round outside dimension. I found a brass clock key with a 1/8" square hole to make the shaft from. I drilled the pin out and cut the end bits off then drilled a hole slightly larger than the square hole.
This was caveman machining because I used a chunk of wood to strike the brass key shaft. This kept the end from mushrooming the brass shaft end. I ground the end of the lathe bit flat so all the corners would cut the same amount each strike. At first, I was using the drill to clean the bur, but about halfway through I noticed the chips were breaking off and flying out. I kept rotating the lathe bit in the hole every 5 or 10 blows to keep it from sticking in the hole too tightly and in aouut 20 miniuts I had broached 3/4" of square hole.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-010422173748.jpeg)
Cheers Bob and Dan
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I've used a similar method to put Allen drive heads into brass, using the end of an Allen key ground flat and sharp as the broach. Works pretty well, but those are shallow. I've not tried going nearly as deep as you show. :ThumbsUp:
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Hi Ron, the steel couplings on the ship were 2 1/2" to about 3" long. I would use the drill press to drill the hole then grab the lathe tool bit with a pair of vice grips with a copper shim on the jaws. This was just to get the square hole started at the correct angle. Once the hole was around 1/8" deep I would simply use a glove to hold the tool bit and it will follow the hole. I used a hand drill to clear the bur after several blows with a soft copper head hammer.
As best as I can remember this would take about 2 hours to make the square hole.
Cheers Dan
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As best as I can remember this would take about 2 hours to make the square hole.
Sounds....fun? :insane:
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As best as I can remember this would take about 2 hours to make the square hole.
Sounds....fun? :insane:
But it was a living...!
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Okay, this thread is NOT dead. The contractors redoing the master bath have been a bit of a distraction. Yesterday while playing the game of 'what tool makes that noise?' I was drawing a barn door and trying to do math in my head. Nothing got done the drawing still needs work and the math was a dog's breakfast.
My drafting office/machine shop in the house.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-210422154525.jpeg)
I had a chance to call Bob and discuss the project which has been a fun almost one year of collaboration. I was only going to make the trucks at first but the study of Shays in drawings and photos is a real strong passion of mine. This is why I picked the prototype and did all the design work except for the engine which I took apart and drew the pieces. This was actually somewhat useful because I discovered that the Stephenson linkage had not been assembled correctly the first time. There are a bunch of tiny spacers that look a lot alike they are nearly the same except for a small difference in length. This made the valve gear hang up a small amount when shifting from forward to reverse. I will be reassembling the engine starting today as it is all in pieces. The contractors do not work on the weekend so I will have a bit of peace and quiet for the job then.
I am no longer making the boiler that job will go to another maker. (any boilermakers out there?) I have one in mind and will send him the principal dimensions and the locations of the fittings so he can get with Bob and discuss the rest of the details of the boiler. I will post my design but it needs a tube roller to make and they are not easy to find in the affordable price range. No one wants to spend the price of a factory boiler for a single tool. I got mine for a song and it lives in my shop where the shop elves can keep an eye on it.
The thread on Bilgram's diagram made me realize that it only takes three Lima cards to draw the whole engine and I have drawn ALL of them already. The cards needed are 3, 6, and 108 for a complete 8" x 8" Shay cylinder. The only other single-digit Lima card known to exist is card #9. This is the reverse quadrant and I have drawn that one also. So I will post all 4 drawings in this thread before it ends. A lot of early Shays can use this engine as a base for a fine model.
Bang bang whizzzz whir okay what is that tool?
Cheers Bob and Dan
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Great to see this one is still progressing though (Whirrrr Whacka Whacka Zing clatter clatter) the distractions (Wham Wham (Ow! :hammerbash: ) wham wham) can be (ZZZZZAPPP :zap: ) a bit much at times I bet!
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(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-040522142924.jpeg)
A bit more progress....the boiler bushings are finished. Three of them are taped 1/4"-40 tpi. These are for the engine, the safety valve, and the pressure regulator and pressure gauge. The regulator controls the gas and it even has a pilot setting. It is the automatic fireman, hopefully, he was worth hiring for the job.
Cheers Bob and Dan
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The Shay engine which is the star of this build is going back together. Working with small parts is always a challenge and this build is proving to be no exception to the rule. I am making new hex head bolts to replace the unsightly slotted screws. After a couple of false starts, I have the large parts assembled.
There are three 2-56 screws that were never tapped at the factory over 20 years ago. I will tap them tomorrow. One of my main pleasures of this type of work is doing it right...even for the forgotten parts that will never be seen by anyone but a proper workman.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-080522153253.jpeg)
Cheers Bob and Dan
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Popcorn is a poppin... :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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To quote Bill Robertson "Details Matter"
Even if no one will ever see them.
Nice work Dan.
Dave
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Many thanks, :praise2: Dave that is high praise from a builder as skilled as you are.
:cheers:
Dan
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Popcorn is a poppin... :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Hi Chris, it just dawned on me that popcorn kernels are really very tiny boilers without safety valves. :zap: I guess that it is good that popcorn is tiny and tasty :noidea: other wise :facepalm:
Cheers Dan
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Popcorn is a poppin... :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Hi Chris, it just dawned on me that popcorn kernels are really very tiny boilers without safety valves. :zap: I guess that it is good that popcorn is tiny and tasty :noidea: other wise :facepalm:
Cheers Dan
Great. Now the shop elves want safety goggles on before we make popcorn. Thanks. :facepalm:
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Oh oh, the safety genie is out of the bottle! :Lol:
Off to my computer to design a .005" long edible safety valve for corn kernels. Could be the next big thing! Order now! :Lol:
(sorry, only metric version with M0.05 x .008 threads will be available in the first run) :zap: :Lol:
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Oh oh, the safety genie is out of the bottle! :Lol:
Off to my computer to design a .005" long edible safety valve for corn kernels. Could be the next big thing! Order now! :Lol:
(sorry, only metric version with M0.05 x .008 threads will be available in the first run) :zap: :Lol:
I'd like to order 10,000 of them.... :Lol: Installation is going to be very tedious though...
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Hold the phone guys.....it really defeats the purpose of popping popcorn by adding a safety valve.
It is simple to keep the safety officer at his desk shifting papers. We just change the name to controlled demolition and the safety man is off the hook. (sorry Chris the elves will still need goggles to be in compliance with the new safety regulations.)
Cheers Dan
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The chewing of unpopped corn kernels might get a bit tedious too! :Lol: (the micro safety valves would theoretically prevent the characteristic 'pop')
I hope the shop elves don't leak it to the media that popping corn is a series of hundreds of pressure vessel explosions right in a pan on your stove burner! :Lol: :cheers:
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Some clear thinking there Dan! :Lol:
Now if we got the safety officer doing the paper shifting in compliance with a full bore ISO 9000 P (for popcorn) process, we'd probably never hear from him again, the paper mill would need to add a third shift to keep up, and he would likely be deliriously happy and would pay to go to work! :cheers:
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Whoa there CNR6400, I have never seen a happy safety officer :pinkelephant: the thought of a safety officer who is deliriously happy is a very scary thought. :noidea:
:popcorn: :cheers: :popcorn:
Dan
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Whoa there CNR6400, I have never seen a happy safety officer :pinkelephant: the thought of a safety officer who is deliriously happy is a very scary thought. :noidea:
:popcorn: :cheers: :popcorn:
Dan
Wrap the safety officer in bubble wrap, in a box of foam peanuts, stuffed in a closet fulll of mattresses. Well, the officer may not be happy, but we will! :LittleDevil:
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Pin chucks can be very handy to well hold pins. :ThumbsUp:
Here is a drill chuck with a #2 morse taper held in a vice in a vice. This makes it stick out very handy for the jeweler's saw to trim a bolt to length. I have added a spare nut to straighten any bur left by the saw blade.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-090522140329.jpeg)
Now here is the next step with a small four-jaw pin chuck. The head is grabbed by the chuck and the spare nut is at the end to stabilize the shank. A small fine file is used to bevel the end of the screw or pin.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-090522140416.jpeg)
As the photo says this is the Stephenson valve gear assemblies.
(http://www.7-8ths.info/gallery/7/213-090522143747.jpeg)
Most of the time I would use the book to assemble an engine :happyreader: but in this case, the engine was designed to rotate like a Shay engine. It is not well known that the very early Shays had the pinion gears on the other side of the bull gears. This will make the truck run in reverse when compared to a modern Shay. So we have to reverse the Shay engine so the Johnston bar or reverse lever will work properly.
This is very :Director: SIMPLE. I just have to remember to put the valve gear assemblies on the other way around. They are mirror assemblies so the forward one goes on the rear cylinder and vice versa.
Cheers Bob and Dan
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Hi Dan
I see that you have been posting again today - and that made me wonder about the status of this interesting model :stickpoke:
Per :cheers: