Model Engine Maker
Supporting => Tooling & Machines => Topic started by: steamer on January 15, 2014, 08:22:53 PM
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Hey Graham,
24 tooth on the spindle gear
18 DP 14 1/2 PA
I'll get you the pictures.
The thread is yours :praise2:
Dave
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Here's some "stock" photo's Let me know what works and what doesn't. I can take more, but this will help narrow down exactly the views you need.
(http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u27/mcandrew1894/Southbend%209A/2013-07-16_22-16-24_833_zps53416c2e.jpg) (http://s164.photobucket.com/user/mcandrew1894/media/Southbend%209A/2013-07-16_22-16-24_833_zps53416c2e.jpg.html)
(http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u27/mcandrew1894/Southbend%209A/2013-05-05_10-37-01_297_zps52dab6ce.jpg) (http://s164.photobucket.com/user/mcandrew1894/media/Southbend%209A/2013-05-05_10-37-01_297_zps52dab6ce.jpg.html)
(http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u27/mcandrew1894/Southbend%209A/2013-05-05_10-36-47_549_zps10e63002.jpg) (http://s164.photobucket.com/user/mcandrew1894/media/Southbend%209A/2013-05-05_10-36-47_549_zps10e63002.jpg.html)
(http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u27/mcandrew1894/Southbend%209A/P7230105-1.jpg) (http://s164.photobucket.com/user/mcandrew1894/media/Southbend%209A/P7230105-1.jpg.html)
(http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u27/mcandrew1894/Southbend%209A/P7230104-1.jpg) (http://s164.photobucket.com/user/mcandrew1894/media/Southbend%209A/P7230104-1.jpg.html)
(http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u27/mcandrew1894/Southbend%209A/P7230098-1.jpg) (http://s164.photobucket.com/user/mcandrew1894/media/Southbend%209A/P7230098-1.jpg.html)
(http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u27/mcandrew1894/Southbend%209A/2013-07-07_19-59-03_172_zps14df1218.jpg) (http://s164.photobucket.com/user/mcandrew1894/media/Southbend%209A/2013-07-07_19-59-03_172_zps14df1218.jpg.html)
(http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u27/mcandrew1894/Southbend%209A/2011-12-09_04-57-38_420.jpg) (http://s164.photobucket.com/user/mcandrew1894/media/Southbend%209A/2011-12-09_04-57-38_420.jpg.html)
(http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u27/mcandrew1894/Southbend%209A/2012-05-23_20-48-03_995.jpg) (http://s164.photobucket.com/user/mcandrew1894/media/Southbend%209A/2012-05-23_20-48-03_995.jpg.html)
(http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u27/mcandrew1894/Southbend%209A/gearguard.jpg) (http://s164.photobucket.com/user/mcandrew1894/media/Southbend%209A/gearguard.jpg.html)
(http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u27/mcandrew1894/Southbend%209A/2013-10-27_11-51-37_174_zpsf8fd07a1.jpg) (http://s164.photobucket.com/user/mcandrew1894/media/Southbend%209A/2013-10-27_11-51-37_174_zpsf8fd07a1.jpg.html)
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I been waiting for this with keen interest.
Thanks Dave, Gray :ThumbsUp:
Bez
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Those of you with Boxford or Hercus....tell us if your's are different than what you see here.
Dave
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I have a hercus 260 and will post some photos tomorrow.
Col
Ps. I also have the parts manual with drawings so will scan and post those as well.
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Hi Dave
I wish all the lathes I have designed clutches for were made by Southbend, that large flat vertical surface is a first. I am confident from your photographs that this is going to work and we can get down to the task of measuring the back end of the lathe, very nice condition by the way. I will do a little drawing of the dimensions I need and will post it on here, this will help others who want to make a version for their particular machines to see how I go about it.
My best regards
Gray,
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Good to hear Gray!....
Let me know!
Dave
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Graham
" the number of teeth on the Mandrel gear as well as the numbers of teeth in the tumbler reverse and very important which position the tumbler reverse is in when turning towards the headstock."
I will get the tooth counts of all the gears later this evening.....I had to take my Daughter to Basketball practice and my son to the hobby shop to pick up his new "drift car".... :ShakeHead:.....He bought that one....not me!
But the upper hole is the "Ahead" or "feed towards the headstock" position.
Be Known!.....there is an inherant step down ratio in the basic train of the SB, which the gearbox steps back up....I did a thread on that....I'll dig that up and post a link here.
Dave
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Here you go Graham
http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,2803.msg47863.html#msg47863
Dave
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:embarassed: Do I get the idea that someone is a little enthusiastic about adding one of these to his Samantha Belle
Jo
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Having watched the youtube vid of the Hardinge screwcutting action I'm not surprised.
Simon.
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If you haven't used a Hardinge to thread.....you won't understand Jo....it really is sweet.
I think it's a cool design too......
Dave
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I thought I had mentioned what was second on this year's list of must have machine tools :mischief:
Just printing the manual and part list out for it :whoohoo:
Jo
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So when is it being delivered ,it won't fit in the car boot :mischief:
Dave just read your thread on the gear ratio , interesting , mine is one to one for the TB to spindle , but I am sure that Gray will sort it out, from my very limited knowledge it may be a bit tight for the clutch pack mine lives inside a 38 t double gear with the selector between.
The S7 has a 30 t pair in the same position, but are 20 DP
Until you get past the tumbler reverser then they are 14.5 DP after that.
If you can get hold of Gray s book it will help with the GA and it assembly routine
It's about 13quid here
Stuart
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:embarassed: The 70 comes first. I have found the one.
But :'( my friend who owns it has a family crises which takes priority.
Jo
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Stuart....I just found out about that book. I'll order it!
Dave
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Hi Dave,
Here are the dimensions that I will need to get started, no pressure when you can.
My best regards
Gray,
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Will do Gray!
Dave
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For those who may not quite get the principle of the clutch operation a very good video has been added to the Model Engineer site by Jim Schroeder, it is well worth a look.
http://www.model-engineer.co.uk/forums/postings.asp?th=49358&p=19
My best regards
Gray,
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Thanks for posting that Video Gray. I should be in a position to get those dimensions this evening....once all the honeydo's are done.
Dave
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That video is well worth watching, it makes you realise what an enviable addition this clutch is to any lathe.
Hugh.
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That video is well worth watching, it makes you realise what an enviable addition this clutch is to any lathe.
Hugh.
YUP!
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Hey Gray.....Here you go.
I noted that with the lever action collet closer, the spindle tail dimension gets larger and longer, and would obviously need to pass through the clutch, but I'm sure you know that.
The 1.300 diameter below in the first picture is the OD of the spindle gear before the tumbler and it's a 24 tooth gear.
(http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u27/mcandrew1894/Southbend%209A/Scan1forGray001_zps386dc833.jpg) (http://s164.photobucket.com/user/mcandrew1894/media/Southbend%209A/Scan1forGray001_zps386dc833.jpg.html)
(http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u27/mcandrew1894/Southbend%209A/Scan2forGray001_zps21294d09.jpg) (http://s164.photobucket.com/user/mcandrew1894/media/Southbend%209A/Scan2forGray001_zps21294d09.jpg.html)
Some of these dimensions are difficult to measure, and I did the best I could with what I have to hand. If any are super critical, let me know and I can get a bit more determined and make up some gages ect.
Dave
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Wow. That looks like a very well thought out addition to any lathe. It appears to function just like the threading clutch that comes with my Hardinge HLV lathe. It not only speeds up thread cutting, improves quality, but it takes all the risk out of threading to shoulders, blind holes or in other tight quarters. The only thing I've learned is to set the stops while running the machine at the RPM you intend to cut the threads. Now, they just need to add a quick retracting lever for the compound slide.
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Hi Dave,
Thanks for the dimensions I can now make a start, but I could just do with the teeth numbers of the gears in the Tumbler cluster, it usually works out that one of these is a good starting point with the clutch.
My best regards
Gray,
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Just been looking at the gear train, it would appear that the mandrel gear and tumbler gears are 20 DP, a 24 tooth gear in 20 DP has an outside diameter of 1.300. While the change gears are 18 DP and 14.5 degrees PA, the question now is are the 20 DP gears, 20 or 14.5 degrees PA?
This is not unusual as the Myford Super 7 uses 20 DP for the Tumbler train but they are 20 degrees PA to promote quieter running.
My best regards
Gray,
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I assumed that it was all 18DP...but the numbers don't seem match the dimensions.....I'll dig out my gear gage and check for real.
Dave
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Yes very good to see one in action on Jim's video.
Graham I assume there is no reason that you cannot also use the clutch when turning to a shoulder or boring a blind hole where it will disengage the feed automatically? As I don't do a lot of screwcutting I thought it was not something for me but as a way to stop the feed can see a lot of use for one.
Direct link to Jim's video here (https://vimeo.com/84476330)
J
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Hey Graham....they are 20 DP 14.5 PA
At the very end of the spindle is a unworn section of the spindle gear, this is 24 tooth.
My Boston gear gage, shows smooth conjugate action with the 14.5 PA rack but not with the 20 PA rack.
The tumbler gears are 32 tooth. 1.695 OD 20 DP 14.5 PA and are 7/16" wide.
Dave
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Ya know Jason, I don't see why you couldn't use it to bore or turn to a shoulder. The carriage doesn't care what's driving it, whether it's a clutch or a half nut.
I would suspect that the difference is to leave the apron clutch engaged for turning or boring, and the half nut engaged for threading.
DAve
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I think the feed rod will need to be carefully thought out so I don't have to disassemble various bits to get the standard tailstock off and put the bed turret on. That said, it will probably be mounted to the side of the lathe bed independent to the bed ways. Maybe on the sides of the pedestals...?
We'll get to that in a bit. The design should proceed from the spindle out.
Dave
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Hi Dave,
Thanks for all the information, the design is well under way as the South Bend mandrel gears are only one tooth smaller than the Myford ML7 mandrel gears which are also 20 DP & 14.5 Degrees PA. I have been able to use the ML7 clutch components with a little modification here and there. As these are known to work components things are going to proceed fairly quickly.
Hi Jason,
You could quite easily use the attachment for boring or turning to a shoulder, but one thing you must not do is change the RPM once everything is set. An increase in RPM will alter the trip points, it is to do with the momentum of the carriage, I found this out the hard way on the Hardinge HLV.
My best regards
Gray,
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Excellent!....this will be cool, all the flexibility of the South Bend and threading capabilities of the HLV.
I'm digging it!
Dave
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The other thing that is nice is having a feed stop for long cuts. I can potentially go do something else and let the feed clutch stop things.
Dave
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Yeah! I'm getting a visual on that Dave
:facepalm: Ahhh... did I tighten the stop clamps??? :hammerbash:
Bez
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Well....you always check your set up ....right? 8)
Dave
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Of course,
I'm just thinking of the days when Seņor Moment and Al Siemers drop in for the day.
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YUP...and that can happen with or without a clutch!..... :LittleDevil:
Dave
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Dave
It's looking good for Samanther with Gray able to use a proven design in the new design for you
Better get the gear cutting gear ready for some work
Stuart
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Hi Dave,
Could you possibly measure the gap between "Face A" and the change wheel cover, (closed position), when the tumbler reverse gear is not in situ. Also can you give me the vertical distances from the central detent hole as to how big the aperture is up and down, nearest 1/64" will be fine.
While you have the tumbler out can you measure the radius of the detent hole face relative to the tumbler bore for me please, I am hoping to make the unit pivot so that you have an "out of engagement position" should you ever need it.
Just to whet your appetite here are some of the components for the ML7 version.
My best regards
Gray,
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Hey Graham,
See attached....best I can measure at the moment.
Dave
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Hi Dave,
It is fine, I just need clarification on one dimension, you have 1.125 shown from the edge of the cover aperture, is the other edge the centre-line of the detent holes or to "Face A"?
Also what is the driving key width in the change wheels?
Drawing work going well so far, "I have not quite painted myself into a corner" but it has been close.
My best regards
Gray,
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The vertical face in the drawing continues down the front of the gear box cover. Ther is a additional cover mounted concentric with the gearbox input shaft that interfaces with the swinging cover, and it is flush with the vertical face on the drawing I have above.
The other dimensions I can get this evening.
Dave
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Center line of the center detent hole.
Dave
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Hi Dave,
Would you check the gap as per the first sketch for me please, I make it 0.550", (I am hoping I am wrong and it is bigger)
In order to route the Trip Rod along the back of the bed, I need to plot where the tumbler hole is in relation to the corner of the bed. Also I see there is a bracket that holds the Change wheel Guard, I need to know if there are any gaps available and also how far down the locking screw extends as we may have to pass beneath this.
Do you have a photograph of this end of the lathe that is square onto the machine? A picture paints a thousand words. (or can anyone else help out?)
My best regards
Gray,
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(http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u27/mcandrew1894/Southbend%209A/100_0750_zps4ff078f5-1.jpg) (http://s164.photobucket.com/user/mcandrew1894/media/Southbend%209A/100_0750_zps4ff078f5-1.jpg.html)
(http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u27/mcandrew1894/Southbend%209A/100_0751_zps85a879b1-1.jpg) (http://s164.photobucket.com/user/mcandrew1894/media/Southbend%209A/100_0751_zps85a879b1-1.jpg.html)
The line represents a centerline between the center of the index hole to the center of the tumbler hole...just to show the angle that is up.
(http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u27/mcandrew1894/Southbend%209A/100_0749_zpsa94ac44a-1.jpg) (http://s164.photobucket.com/user/mcandrew1894/media/Southbend%209A/100_0749_zpsa94ac44a-1.jpg.html)
I'll post some dimensions next.
Dave
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Heres the dimensions...
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Gray,
I think you could go under the cover mounting arm and then inbetween the banjo arm and the headstock casting....if that helps.
I can notch or move something if required.
Dave
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(http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u27/mcandrew1894/Southbend%209A/pic1_zps47481edc.jpg) (http://s164.photobucket.com/user/mcandrew1894/media/Southbend%209A/pic1_zps47481edc.jpg.html)
(http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u27/mcandrew1894/Southbend%209A/pic3_zps8059bc45.jpg) (http://s164.photobucket.com/user/mcandrew1894/media/Southbend%209A/pic3_zps8059bc45.jpg.html)
(http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u27/mcandrew1894/Southbend%209A/100_0751_zps85a879b1-1.jpg) (http://s164.photobucket.com/user/mcandrew1894/media/Southbend%209A/100_0751_zps85a879b1-1.jpg.html)
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Hi Dave
Thanks for all the photographs and the extra dimensions I can now start to finalise the size of the main body.
My best regards
Gray
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No worries Gray,
Let me know if you need anything else, of if one of my dimensions just doesn't jive.
Dave
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Hi Dave,
Here is a front view of the screwcutting attachment, it is not a complete view as I still have to draw in the anchor plate on the end of the main body nearest the Ball Handle. I would be grateful if you could just check that the two dimensions shown on the drawing will pass under the bracket that supports the change wheel guard for me please. I intend to use a 0.375" diameter trip rod and if possible I would like to move the trip rod drop arm a little closer to the bed, is there any room to play with from the dimensions given?
The ball handle is purely optional, if you have a personal preference then feel free to substitute your own version.
I shall need just a few more dimensions so that I can get a relationship between the trip rod and the cross-slide, where it overhangs the bed as well as the rear inverted Vee bedway. I will post a couple of sketches shortly.
My best regards
Gray,
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I'm all over it this evening. Gray, give me another dimension reference, perhaps to the spindle from some feature.
That will triangulate everything.
Dave
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Additionally, Gray, take this drawing view, and put the dimensional references to my lathe that you have on it, and I'll check all of them and scout for any interferences. I can also add any other dimensions that you're looking for.
Dave
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Hi Dave,
At the moment I just need the location of the trip rod verified relative to the lower corner of the bed. A card template with the centre of the trip rod and a notch cut out to locate on the corner of the bed is what I normally use. If you hold this in position behind the bracket and just sight through it should be near enough. Once I have the trip rod sorted I can start detailing the separate details.
The first thing will be the main body which I have found in the past is best made out of MDF in the first instance in order to see that there are all the relevant clearances, and to save material.
My best regards
Gray,
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Sounds like a great plan Gray!....My Daughter has a Basketball game tonight...so It might have to wait till tomorrow or the weekend....but I'm on it.
Dave
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Hello Gray,
I have a 10K South Bend Lathe that I would like to add this capability to. The only thing that would be different from Dave's 9A would be the length of the actuator arm because the 10K center height is .500" greater. Would any modifications be required to your design other than lengthening the arm? The gears, reverse gear bracket, spindle gear, etc. are all interchangeable components between the 9" & 10K SB Lathes. My lathe has a taper attachment, but I don't think the trip arm location that you have planned will interfere with this.
I have also had the pleasure of using a Hardinge HLV-H lathe when I worked as a toolmaker and would really love to add your screwcutting clutch to my lathe.
I added your Micrometer Apron Handwheel design to my Myford S7 last year and it has been a great addition. I have also enjoyed reading your book 'Projects For The Workshop, Vol.1' as well as your articles in Engineering in Miniature and HSM. I can highly recommend it and look forward to Volume 2! Your technical writing is very clear and you certainly have some very clever designs that you have shared with us. Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge, it is greatly appreciated.
If you are looking for another person to build a version of your Screwcutting Clutch for a 10K SBL, I would certainly be interested. I just started setting up my 10K a few days ago. It was completely disassembled to clean and change felts, oil wicks, etc. and I am starting the process of re-assembly today. The bench is finished and I should have everything required to assemble the headstock later today if you need any additional measurements. Thanks again for all of your efforts.
Kind regards,
Mike
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Doesn't bother me a bit! Have at it if that's all that's different it shouldn't be a problem. the actuator arm will take a bit more travel to trip I think, but I can't think of any other issues.
I'll get some more dimensions tonight or tomorrow more likely.
Dave
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Hi Dave, Mike,
You guys know more about the hardware than I do, provided the Tumbler reverse assembly is interchangeable then I see no problem in fitting this version to the 10. As you said the trip drop arm may need lengthening as well as the tialstock trip rod support bracket and the trip point will be correspondingly longer.
I did say to Dave that I intend to publish all the required drawings on this Post, I only ever write articles on the things I have built myself, as I will never build one of these units it seems wrong of me just to sit on the drawings when others could benefit from them.
No hurry on the dimensions Dave, when you can,
My best regards
Gray
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Thanks Gray and Dave! Will keep you updated on my progress.
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Hi Dave and Mike,
I have just completed the Isometric view of the Main Body, just so you can see what you have let yourselves in for.
My best regards
Gray,
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ahhhhhhh....that aint no big thiiiiiing!
That looks like a nice face plate job to me. I like faceplates.
Do you know the tooth counts for the different gears yet Gray? I may need to order a couple of cutters.
Dave
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And....the views don't seem to match.... :headscratch:
Dave
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Hi Dave,
The gears are 32 & 24 teeth, can you highlight where you feel the views do not match, my Isometric is a little rusty so it could well be wrong.
My best regards
Gray
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Could be me Gray.....the notch at the top of the part on the right doesn't seem to be present on the part to the left.....or have I stuffed it? Also I don't see the headstock facing counterbore on the angled surface of the left view. :thinking:
Dave
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Hi Dave,
You are not loosing it, I have modified the design since I posted the schematic drawing. The rectangular boss at the top right hand corner was just for the ball plunger and spring for the detent or the selector plate. Bringing this face out level with the rest of the body required a pocket to clear the selector plate, this was not present on the original. One reason for the change was the Boss on the back of the main body, as it is now there is a plain surface to clamp down on that does not require any packing when you set-up on the faceplate, just trying to make things easier to make.
The counterbore is shown in dotted on the schematic, perhaps this has not come out too well in the jpg, it is for the other 24 T X .75 wide idler gear to transmit drive from the 32 T X .75 wide idler gear to the rear 24 T dog gear.
I have taken to doing an Isometric view as quite a few constructors have had great difficulty visualising the part in the past, there are usually several changes between the schematic drawing, (this is basically an idea of what it will possibly look like) and the finished drawing. Drawing the Isometric view did highlight one or two small issues and these have been resolved, so you may take this as the finished design.
Any idea when you will be in a position to update me on the dimensions?
My best regards
Gray,
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I should have an update sometime today.
Thanks Gray!
Dave
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Here you go Gray, I got a couple of minor changes, perhaps a bit more accurate. So look through.
Dave
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Hi Dave
Thanks for the additional information I can now see about putting the final touches to this attachment.
My best regards
Gray,
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Hi Dave
Bring out the sackcloth and ashes, here is the revised main body views with the cut-out in the slanting face in BOTH views and the revised Gear centres following your recent set of dimensions.
My best regards
Gray,
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Following another prompt it appears my Isometric drawing is extremely rusty, please accept my apologies and take this final view as being right.
Can I also ask if anyone following this post has photographs of the Taper Turning attachment in position on the lathe, I would like to make sure the stops and stop plate do not foul this attachment.
My best regards
Gray,
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Thats better Gray :praise2:
Dave is going to have some interesting setups on that , hope he posts a build log so we can see how other go about it , for me it would be a jig plate on the mill to get the pockets done both side , but I bet Dave will show us a different way
But by ek its not taken you long to sort it out I would be still sharpening my pencils O:-)
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Hello Gray,
I can mock up and photograph the taper attachment later this afternoon. I will include some photos that show the trip rod's path along the back of the saddle. I don't have the lathe bolted down yet, so I can access all sides easily at the moment. Thanks!
Mike
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Hey Stuart,
If I had one of Gray's boring and facing heads, I'd do this on the mill. It has a DRO and would be far less work otherwise, but as it is, I would end up on a rotary table with multiple set ups...so in the lathe
After bringing the outside to finished size, I'd lay out the gear locations with toolmakers buttons and confirm mesh, then set each one up in turn and bore/face the locations.
Then, clean the rest of it up on the mill.......
Graham, The drawing looks great, and your excellent reputation has far preceeded you, thanks for taking on this project, I know I am going to really enjoy making and using it!
:praise2:
Dave
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Thank you all for your patience, it is currently too cold for me to go into my workshop so designing helps fill my time.
I do however suffer with "Fibro-Fog" a side effect of Fibromyalgia in that the ability to concentrate disappears, this certainly does not help when I am trying to visualise a component. If therefore I do make a complete hash of something please do not hesitate to correct me, as I have said before you guys know the hardware better than I do.
Any photographs of the Taper turning attachment would be good.
Since making the large version of the Boring and Facing head Dave it now has a younger brother.
My best regards
Gray,
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Graham they look neat! Are the designs for the those boring and facing heads in one of your books?
Also I've seen mention of you doing a version of your screw-cutting clutch for the Wabeco D6000 - does that use a similar timing belt type layout as the D2000 series lathe - if so do you think it would be adaptable to a D2000?
Simon.
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Hi Simon,
The large boring head is in my book, "Projects for your Workshop Vol 1" the smaller version is a 3/4 scale model of the larger one.
The Wabeco D 6000 uses timing belts but as regards the two machines being the same I cannot say, (I am not that familiar with the lathe or the model designations). If you take a look at the post on the Model Engineer Forum it will give you a little of the background, I have listed the link and the Wabeco design starts towards the bottom of page 17.
http://www.model-engineer.co.uk/forums/postings.asp?th=49358&p=17
This version does however need an new larger 42 T Mandrel gear, the screwcutting belt positions have all had to be reworked as on the standard lathe there is an in-built reduction between the mandrel and the tumbler reverse. Anthony Rhodes worked all these new positions out, I think he also added some threads that were not originally listed by Wabeco and these are all listed on the above forum.
If there is a similarity between the two machines then the clutch I have designed might well fit.
My best regards
Gray,
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Thanks Graham - I can see from the photos that although there is commonality in the use of timing belts there the similarity ends - not to worry!
Think I'll track down a copy of your book though, best wishes,
Simon.
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Hi Simon,
Sorry you cannot use the Wabeco design.
I did forget to mention that the Boring head has two different facing speeds and that these speeds work in both directions.
My best regards
Gray,
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Here you go Gray. You'll notice the V is slightly asymmetric...though it has equal angles and the included angle is still 90.
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Hello Gray,
I got the 10K mocked up and took photos of the taper attachment. However, I am having trouble uploading my photos to Photobucket. Ran out of time today, have to eat dinner and walk the dogs now. I will get this sorted and try to get them up first thing in the morning. Thanks.
Mike
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Hi Dave,
Thanks for the additional information on the inverted Vee Way.
My best regards
Gray,
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Mike,
I have an early day so I won't be around shortly. We have a 10MB limit on photo attachments. Although you are more than welcome to attach them, linking them to a hosting service such as Photobucket.com and others might be easiest. Otherwise, you can email them to me and I can host them on my PB account.
Let me know
Dave
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Hello Gray and Dave,
Thanks for the photo offer Dave, but I got it sorted. I was just trying to upload too many at a time. Still trying to get used to dealing with photos on my iPad.
The 10K SBL that I have is a horizontal drive bench model that uses the same bed and foot that the under drive or cabinet model uses. There is a difference between the headstock end of the bed and foot compared to Dave's 9A, the headstock end of the bed and foot casting are much wider to accommodate the belt that goes through the casting on the under drive lathe. This may need a different location for the trip arm. My lathe is a 1978 vintage that has the fiberglass or reinforced plastic end guards and belt guards.
(http://i966.photobucket.com/albums/ae149/moconnor329/10KSBLE.jpg) (http://s966.photobucket.com/user/moconnor329/media/10KSBLE.jpg.html)
This is a photo of the guards taken by the seller of my lathe.
(http://i966.photobucket.com/albums/ae149/moconnor329/10K%20South%20Bend%20Lathe/image-20.jpg) (http://s966.photobucket.com/user/moconnor329/media/10K%20South%20Bend%20Lathe/image-20.jpg.html)
This shows the belt guard linkage which shouldn't be an issue.
(http://i966.photobucket.com/albums/ae149/moconnor329/10K%20South%20Bend%20Lathe/image-11.jpg) (http://s966.photobucket.com/user/moconnor329/media/10K%20South%20Bend%20Lathe/image-11.jpg.html)
This is an end view of the taper attachment.
(http://i966.photobucket.com/albums/ae149/moconnor329/10K%20South%20Bend%20Lathe/image-14.jpg) (http://s966.photobucket.com/user/moconnor329/media/10K%20South%20Bend%20Lathe/image-14.jpg.html)
Another view of the headstock end of the taper attachment.
(http://i966.photobucket.com/albums/ae149/moconnor329/10K%20South%20Bend%20Lathe/image-15.jpg) (http://s966.photobucket.com/user/moconnor329/media/10K%20South%20Bend%20Lathe/image-15.jpg.html)
Rear view of taper attachment.
(http://i966.photobucket.com/albums/ae149/moconnor329/10K%20South%20Bend%20Lathe/image-13.jpg) (http://s966.photobucket.com/user/moconnor329/media/10K%20South%20Bend%20Lathe/image-13.jpg.html)
Top front view.
(http://i966.photobucket.com/albums/ae149/moconnor329/10K%20South%20Bend%20Lathe/image-18.jpg) (http://s966.photobucket.com/user/moconnor329/media/10K%20South%20Bend%20Lathe/image-18.jpg.html)
Tailstock end view.
I have a 1950-1960's style horizontal drive headstock which uses the same end guard that Dave's 9A does that will eventually replace the headstock and plastic guards on my 10K once I find the rest of the parts. I hate these plastic belt and end guards. The head stock castings are different due to the brackets for the belt guard and gear guard and it is not possible to interchange the guards. I will take some photos of the earlier headstock shortly as it looks more like the 9A horizontal drive headstock. One good thing here is that my horizontal drive 10K bed and bed foot are the same as the 9A and 10K under drive, so any trip rod linkage issue should be able to be sorted out here.
If you need measurements or a different view, please let me know.
Thanks again Gray and Dave. I really appreciate your efforts.
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Hi Mike,
Thank you for going to all this trouble, the pictures are great.
If you could just measure one thing for me, to the rear of the bed at the headstock end there is a cast projection, which I assume is for the belt of an under-drive version to pass up to the headstock. What is the dimension from the top face of this projection to the underside of the bedways? This will give me the lowest point for the trip rod on both versions of the lathe, relative to the ways.
My best regards
Gray,
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Hello Gray,
The distance from the bottom of the rear bed to the top of the bed casting where the opening for the spindle belt is 1.050"
I measured the distance from the spindle centerline to the same bottom of the rear bed reference and it is 5.536" on this 10K. Dave's 9A dimension is 5.25". I expected this to be at least a full .5" greater on my lathe as that is the difference in our lathe's center. Thanks.
Mike
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Hello Gray,
Theses photos show the 1950's- 60's vintage 10K headstock with cast end gear guard and bed bracket which is very similar to Dave's 9A. This type of end gear guard is used on all under drive or cabinet models. These lathes will have the bed and foot that has the belt fed thru to the drive in the cabinet below, as in my bed photos above. I included the photos because it shows the very limited space available for the trip rod with this combination. There is a 3/8" gap between the cast end gear guard bed bracket approx. 3/4" from the end of the bed where the casting thins out into the arm. This is in line with the back of the saddle where the trip dog would most likely be. Very close quarters!
(http://i966.photobucket.com/albums/ae149/moconnor329/10K%20South%20Bend%20Lathe/image-21.jpg) (http://s966.photobucket.com/user/moconnor329/media/10K%20South%20Bend%20Lathe/image-21.jpg.html)
(http://i966.photobucket.com/albums/ae149/moconnor329/image-10.jpg) (http://s966.photobucket.com/user/moconnor329/media/image-10.jpg.html)
Mike
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Hi Mike,
Thanks for the dimension and the additional photographs, you must be a mind reader.
There is not going to be enough room to pass the trip rod between the two. It does not present any problems in all probability it will work in our favour.
The trip rod drop arm is going to have to go further away from the bed. Can I impose upon you for one more dimension? I need to know where the outer edge of this cast portion is in relation to the bottom corner of the rear bedway. I have done a hurried drawing of the dimension needed to help save any confusion.
My best regards
Gray,
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Hi Gray,
No problem at all. Happy to do anything I can to assist you in this project.
The furthest point of the casting is 1.5" from the outside of the bed.
Mike
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Gray,
One thing I just noticed is that Dave's 9A rear bed vee way dimensions are different enough from mine and other 9" & 10K's that have not been re-machined, that it may cause someone problems when making the bed clamps/ supports for the trip rod. Dave had his bed ground and he subsequently scraped his bed and saddle during his rebuild. My lathe is unworn and still has full-size vee ways. If you would like my lathe's vee way dimensions, just let me know. The 9A and 10K bed's vee and flat ways are identical, as is the saddle.
Mike
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Hi Gray,
Just thought of something else... On the 9" and 10K under drive lathes with the motor and countershaft in the cabinet, there is a safety interlock that prevents the end and gear guards from being opened while the countershaft has tension on the spindle belt. It has a vertical rod that is in the vicinity of the area we are talking about here for the trip rod. I took a photo with a 1/2" dowel pin centered on the boss of the bed foot in the approximate location where this would be. Because my 10K is a horizontal drive model, the bed foot casting does not have the hole drilled for the rod, so it is a guesstimate. This interlock was the first thing that I removed when I had one of these under drive lathes. That would easily solve the problem. It is a mechanical interlock only, no electrical interlock.
My guess is a 3/8"- 1/2" diameter rod with its centerline approx. 2" from rear of bed. Based on central location of boss on casting and the cam on my end gear guard (which is present).
(http://i966.photobucket.com/albums/ae149/moconnor329/image-11.jpg) (http://s966.photobucket.com/user/moconnor329/media/image-11.jpg.html)
Dowel pin representing approx. location of guard safety interlock.
Maybe someone with an underneath drive SBL can provide some more information. Sorry to add more complications to your design. I think this will be an extremely popular modification to the 9" & 10K SB Lathes and this problem would come up eventually.
Mike
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Mike,
Checked the dimension again last night.....got 5.1875 actual. I don't think the 1/16 is too important though for this situation.
Dave
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Hi Dave,
Thanks for the double check. I just checked my other 10K headstock and got 5.547" compared to 5.536" on my original one. Was just surprised it wasn't closer to the 1/2" difference in the center heights of our lathes than .151" :thinking:.
Thanks again!
Mike
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You are measuring to the top of the V''s ...which is the leveling reference surface ...correct?
Oh and I took a picture of it...but I'll post it tonight...costs money to do it with the phone....
Dave
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Hi Dave/Mike,
I have managed to find away around the problem, moving the trip rod drop arm away from the bed as I originally intended would I feel bring a fouling condition with the bracket that holds the change wheel guard as I can see a definite curve in the bracket towards the drop arm.
However moving the trip rod drop arm closer to the lathe bed and making an "L" shaped bracket to attach the trip rod to the drop arm means we pass beneath the bracket for the change wheel guard and then go up to the trip rod centre-line which passes over the casting protrusion for the under belt drive and brings us to a position that is below the carriage keep plate. This position means we are also clear of the taper turning attachment.
Details of the rear inverted Vee way on an original machine would be good. Also what is the thickness of the clamping plate that locks the taper turning attachment to the rear Vee way, I estimate it at 0.625".
Finally how far is the cast protrusion from the change wheel end of the bed, this will give me the maximum length for the "L" shaped bracket, and just for good measure can you give me the width of the bracket that holds the change wheel guard where it actually attaches to the bed.
My best regards
Gray,
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Sounds good Graham. I think there is a bit of leeway with the actuator rod length as the case maybe.
Just sent you an email.....
Dave
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Hi Dave and Gray,
Attached is a drawing with the dimensions of my 10K rear vee way.
Mike
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Thanks Mike!
Dave
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Hi Gray,
Good eye on the T/A Bed Clamp Bracket thickness! It is indeed 5/8".
The protrusion on the bed foot for the spindle belt is 1-3/4" from the END of the lathe bed.
Mike
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Hi Dave/Mike,
Thanks for all the dimensions, I just need one more and that will be it, how wide is the bracket that holds the change wheel guard where it clamps to the bed? This will set the minimum length of the "L" shaped bracket.
My best regards
Gray,
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Hi Gray,
The end guard bracket casting is 1-5/16" wide where it clamps to the bed, but the bracket may need to be positioned another 1/8"- 1/4" from the end of the bed in order to align the face of the guard parallel with the headstock. So, you may want to add a bit of length to that dimension.
Mike
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Hi Dave/Mike,
This is something I was afraid of, the position of the bump out in the bed casting combined with the width of the bracket, the movement of the bracket on the bed for adjustment, plus the travel of the drop arm to trip the clutch in either direction means the one arm of our "L" shaped bracket now has a negative thickness.
Back to the drawing board as they say, there is a way around it, but it's complex.
My best regards
Gray,
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Hi Mike.
Can you tell me the maximum thickness of the rear wall of the casting on the bump out for the under drive and the over-all length please.
Finally laying a straight edge across where the tumbler gear fits to the headstock, what is the largest drill shank that can be inserted between the straight edge and the rear face of the headstock, currently I need 0.375" to clear a boss for the selector spigot.
My best regards
Gray,
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Hello Gray,
The wall thickness of the bump-out for the belt in the bed foot is max. 7/16" and that is in the rear corner near the end of the bed.
Laying a straight edge across the boss for the tumbler bracket, I assume you are interested in the lower corner of the headstock casting, that clearance is:
My original 1978 horizontal drive H/S with plastic guards: 3/8"
Older 1950- 60's style horizontal drive H/S with cast guards: 1/2"
Sorry for the delay in response. Will be back in the shop in 2 hours if you need anything else.
Mike
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Hi Mike,
Thanks for the dimensions, things are starting to come together at long last.
I have worked out a way around the problem I just need the over-all length of the bump out now to complete the "detour" for the trip rod.
My best regards
Gray,
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Hi Gray,
The bump-out is 4-7/8" long. It begins 1-3/4" from the change wheel end of the bed and ends 6-5/8" from the end of the bed. Thanks!
Mike
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Hi Dave/Mike,
I have attached to views of the proposed trip rod route. Any thing shown in Blue is the bed profile and is to scale. Basically I have used a piece of 1/2 x 1/2 x 1/8 angle to connect the trip rod to the bearing on the bottom of the drop arm. In the position shown it should clear the edge of the bump out as well as the top by 0.125", and the angle will not interfere with an under drive system as the angle is 3/16 short of the inner wall of the bump out.
By using angle I have been able to mortice and tenon the blocks onto the angle and this will make a very strong job of the assembly. you can weld these joints if you prefer.
The trip rod clears the carriage keep plate as well as the clamp plate for the taper turning attachment. With the trips angled upwards at 45 degrees the heads of the capscrews for making the adjustments will just appear above the rear inverted Vee. There will be a copper/brass pad bearing on a flat on the trip rod to maintain the angle and to protect the rod. I have in mind to use capscrews for the adjustments but Hex headed bolts might be better especially if the capscrews are prone to fill up with swarf.
If this is OK then I can finish detailing the various parts and the drawings will follow shortly.
My best regards
Gray,
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Hello Gray and Dave,
That looks great! I am certain that this was more work than you originally thought, but it should save some headaches for constructors who have an under drive lathe by sorting this out now. You have done an amazing job! Thanks so much for all of your efforts, I really appreciate it! Thanks Dave for taking all those measurements too!
Kind regards,
Mike
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Hi Dave/Mike,
I always say I have the easy part of any project, if I make a mistake it is only a case of copying and moving a detail to some new location, not so easy when it is in metal. So far this project is well below the time taken to do the Emco Compact 8, that was a real brain teaser. A lathe that has a tumbler reverse to start with is always far easier to adapt to a screwcutting clutch.
It has been a real pleasure doing this unit, and sorting the trip rod out now to suit all machines was a step in the right direction.
My best regards
Gray,
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Gray,
Thank you so much for your efforts! I got the drawings via email, what I am doing is reviewing them, and then I will post them here to this thread as attachments so everyone can have access to them I should have that complete this weekend.
Thanks again!
Dave
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Hi Dave,
Sorry I missed your post, as regards the drawings you are entirely welcome. I hope you and the other constructors have many happy hours using the device. Working on the South Bend version has completed my initial goal when I first started the thread, (excuse the pun, not intentional), on Model Engineer back in 2011. As I had hoped then others are now taking up the challenge and designing clutches to fit their own machines. There has been a novel idea recently put forward on the above ME thread for a Colchester Bantam lathe which has a geared head, I shall be following this with interest.
My best regards
Gray,
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Alright guys...a confession. I have not been able to go through these yet. Life has conspired against me.
So here are Gray's drawings. Enjoy! And thank you Graham! :praise2:
The first four pages.
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Pages 5-8
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Pages 9-12
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Pages 13 - 18
That's all of them.
Dave
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Hi Dave,
Thanks very much for your help, I hope there are not too many mistakes.
My best regards
Gray,
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Graham,
My intention was to be helpful, As an Engineer and machine designer, I always try to have my drawings reviewed by others as they see the forest through the trees...where I sometimes can't. it's not a big deal on a bracket, but on something like a machine base that weighs 20 tons...well...that's a good deal more difficult to rework and the error affects more than just me...it could be the whole company! It's a mature and responsible way of doing business.
In that vain, It was my intent to "watch your 6" and review the drawings for you. Especially since a good deal of the dimensions were provided by me in the form of measurements off my lathe!..
But.....Life has conspired against me this past week or two. some of the personal commitments were very time consuming. In interest to get Grahams drawings published. I "went for it"
SO.....to the good members who venture into this build with me......Measure twice, cut once, and yell at me not Graham If I find something that doesn't line up.
Thank you again Graham for your effort. THAT was a good deal of work! :praise2:
If I find issues....in any form....I will post them here in this thread so future builders will have our notes to go with the drawings.
We can then update the drawings, and we'll know I didn't mess up the measurements! :lolb:
Regards,
Dave
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Hi Dave,
I appreciate the help, it is one thing to design something for a particular machine when you have access to that machine, and it is something entirely different to design that same something when the machine is 3000 miles away.
You were lucky in the sense that I was not under the spell of my illness which has suddenly without warning re-appeared, but luckily the Steroids has it under control and I hope to be back to somewhere near normal soon. Normal being able to concentrate fully without feeling as though I am peering through a Fog.
I shall look forward to all the input, good or bad, and once repairs to the house are complete I shall be eager to get back into my workshop, I have been too long away, I need the therapy.
My best regards
Gray,
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Just out of curiosity has anyone started this version yet?
My best regards
Gray,
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Not yet Graham. But I will.