Model Engine Maker
Engines => Your Own Design => Topic started by: Craig DeShong on September 05, 2021, 08:10:37 PM
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Ever since I finished my last Otto & Langen model, I’ve been trying to choose my next project. I had several in mind, but nothing really immediately inspired me.
I have been fascinated with WWI rotary engines (where the crankshaft is bolted to the airframe, and the whole engine rotates with the propeller) since I was a child. Probably every American kid of my generation was introduced to Baron Von Richthofen, the “bloody Red Baron“ and his Fokker Triplane (powered by a Le Rhone) through the immemorial Carl Shulz and his peanuts comic strip with, Snoopy flying his doghouse as a Sopwith Camel (also powered by a Le Rhone) and constantly being shot down by the Baron and his Triplane.
I started some research on the Le Rhone, the rotary engine that powered 80 percent of the WWI aircraft. The reading was fascinating and before long I was hooked on building a model of the Le Rhone. So we all know the engine I’m planning to model, below are a few photos of an original engine.
(https://i.postimg.cc/02pWm7sf/Le-Rhone-front-view-3.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZnP89Fdv/Le-Rhone-front-view-4.jpg)
And this is a youtube video of one being started and run at the NW Biplane Fly-In 2009, Felts Field, Spokane Washington.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfEEmdz7-Fk
The Le Rhone came in various models, with the 80 HP 9C being the most widely built during the war. I personally think it is the most attractive of the different versions, with the intake pipes out in front of the cylinders where with other versions (such as the 9J) they are positioned behind the cylinders.
Lest you be misled; I’m not trying to attempt a model such as the exceptional radial engines that Mike has built. His work is just fantastic and I won’t begin to compare what I’m trying to accomplish to what he’s done. As I’ve built in the past, this will be a “sort-of-scale” model of the Le Rhone. None of my scale models will pass close scrutiny, but they look pretty accurate from a few feet away. That was the plan I had as I began design of the Le Rhone.
As I got into the design I began to realize that an awful lot of stuff whirls around inside the engine case and getting it all to fit, let alone preserve the needed clearances was going to be difficult. This became so problematic that as the design progressed, I started doubting my skills in building something as complicated as the design was becoming. Reluctantly I decided to switch my efforts to designing a free-lance rotary engine with five cylinders. With a free-lance design you aren’t held to any specific dimensions, and if something needs to get bigger or move, you’re free to do so. The design of the 5-cylinder rotary was well under way; but the more I looked at it the more dissatisfied I became. Realizing that I couldn’t really get excited building this free-lance engine, I took another hard look at the Le Rhone.
This current design has been worked, and re-worked, and modified countless times until I think I have everything inside the scale size engine case with the clearances needed and I’m thinking I have a good shot at being successful with the build of this model.
The model will be a bit under ½ scale; being a bit short of 18 inches across the diameter of the cylinders, valve rocker to valve rocker. It’s a bit larger than I wanted but if I build it smaller, the parts get so dang small that I won’t be able to see what I’m doing and then building stops being fun and why build if you aren’t having fun?
Don’t expect this model to be built quickly, I’m through with spending eight hours a day, seven days a week in the shop, so the build pace will be at a much more leisure pace than in the past.
Before I leave you, I’ll give you a few views of the design from my CAD software.
(https://i.postimg.cc/kG7VHr2D/CAD-1.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/3r9WwcyC/CAD-2.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/NFVcHmvY/CAD-3.jpg)
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Wow, that's an amazing project, pure scale or not! The shop elves are lining up thier little rocking chairs next to mine in front of the screen to watch along. :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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it will be fun to watch this build! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Wow, Craig, I am going to enjoy watching this one come to life. :popcorn: :popcorn:
This is going to be a big engine, 18 inches across. Have you calculated the displacement? It will surprise you. It's also going to need a big propeller as well, so I hope you are good with the brown stuff.
Where are you going to start? I usually tackle the cylinder heads and cylinders first. You can get into a nice rhythm with nine of everything.
Remember; Real engines are round
Mike
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I'm looking forward to following this one also. Don't forget to lay in a supply of authentic castor oil for 1st start day! Supposedly WW1 fighter pilots rarely had to worry about constipation.
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As I got into the design I began to realize that an awful lot of stuff whirls around inside the engine case and getting it all to fit, let alone preserve the needed clearances was going to be difficult. This became so problematic that as the design progressed, I started doubting my skills in building something as complicated as the design was becoming. Reluctantly I decided to switch my efforts to designing a free-lance rotary engine with five cylinders.
I assume the tricky bit you refer to is the slipper arrangement on the master rod and the three concentric grooves. You could "cheat" and reused the mechanism used on the Chenery Gnome rather than be mechanically true to type inside the crankcase :-X
...just an idea ;)
Jo
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By the way, if you want to make the long drive to Bethel, Pennsylvania, the Golden Age Air Museum there has an accurate, scratchbuilt, DR-1 flying behind an authentic
Le Rhone rotary engine (I don't actually know for a fact that it is a Le Rhone). Lot's of other cool stuff there as well, and they put on really fun airshows. Kinda like Old Rhinebeck, only different.
https://www.goldenageair.org/collection/1918_fokker_dr_i_triplane.htm
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I hate to be the one to point it out, but the intake pipes on the 80hp LeRhône 9C are on the trailing side of the cylinder. Rotaries had the exhaust on the leading side maximize cooling of the hottest bits of the cylinder heads. In the case of the 80hp LeRhône, things are rather more fortunate than its contemporaries as there are drawings of most all of the components as it was built under license by Union Switch & Signal in Swissvale, PA. Some of the drawings (photocopies) are very difficult to read, but in most cases the dimensions can be figured out from the mating component drawing. It does save a lot of experimentation and guesswork of proportioning the parts so they all fit together. Of course you might still simplify it dramatically just to make it easier to build. I got most of the way with my CAD model, less the rocker and valve gear before running out of steam.
The situation is almost as good with the 110hp LeRhône 9Jb, with most of the drawings available. The first pics in your post are of the 110hp, which had the intake pipes on the rear side of the crankcase. I did not get as far with that so not entirely sure what is missing in the drawing package until you go to look for something and find it is not there. Most other engines you end up scaling a cross section view from a handbook. Though in the case of the Clerget 9B I was able to borrow an original Gwynne built version, disassemble, clean, and reverse engineer it in the process. And if you have a British built Clerget 9B you have a third of the Bentley BR1. Not to be confused with the slightly bigger Bentley BR2 popularized by Lew Blackmore's serialization in Model Engineer and publication as a book.
-Doug
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I'll be watching this one take shape! The design work is a huge part of building from scratch, I can attest to that!
18" is a big engine....this one can hurt you!....Like Mike said, it can surprise you just how big they are....
I'm really looking forward to the build on this one! Get on with your good self sir!
Dave :popcornsmall:
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Thanks for all the interest. I’ll attempt to answer or recognize all the responses/questions.
Chris and CNR- great to have you along!
Mike: don’t know what I was smok’in yesterday. The scale is actually much closer to 1/3rd size than ½. The distance across the cylinders (rocker to rocker) is a tad over 12 inches (not 18??). One of the places where I’m deviating from the full-size engine is in the area of the cylinder head. The full size has blind cylinders with the valve guides set into the end of the cylinder (head). I’m not looking forward to boring out a blind cylinder and then reaching in about 3 ½ inches to cut valve seats and expecting to have much success, accuracy and a smooth valve seat is paramount; therefore I’ve designed the heads to be separate and I’ve decreased the bore of the cylinder so I can bring cap screws up from the bottom of the cylinder to ‘blindly’ attach the head. This should give the appearance of the head and cylinder being one integral unit on the model when in-fact they are not. In order to do this I needed to thicken the head so that it can accept the threaded ends of the bolts and an attentive observer will recognize this in the model.
The bore/stroke of the full-size is 4.13 x 5.51 inches. The bore/stroke of the model will be 1.125 x 1.425 inches. You can see that I’ve shortened the stroke (to get things to fit in the engine case) and decreased the bore (to accommodate the fasteners for the heads). The model will have close to 9 cubic inches of displacement so I doubt the decreased bore will be a concern in allowing the engine to run. I’ll probably need to use a smaller propeller.
I thought I’d start with the engine case, and assemble the engine as I go.
Ron: "old hat" for you I'm sure, but for others.... The Germans thought so highly of the Le Rhone that they acquired a few from downed allied aircfraft, dis-assembled the engines, and reverse engineered their version; the Oberursel U.R II. These engines were not considered as reliable as the Le Rhone, but further investigation seems to point to the oil being used. The Le Rhone and its clones operate on a total loss oil system, where the oil was injected into the engine, and then lost through centrifugal force through the many orifices in the engine case. The Allies had access to castor oil which was used as the lubricant; the Germans did not have access to castor oil, so they used an inferior oil, thus the increased incidents of failure of the Oberursel.
With a total loss oil system, this is a messy engine with oil being flung out in a 360 degree circle around the cylinders and blown back through the prop wash. Even though many of the airplanes had cowling over the engine the pilots still became covered with castor oil, having to occasionally remove their goggles and wipe them clean. This also resulted in ingestion of a certain amount of the oil and we can understand why a pilot might be compelled to hurry back to the airdrome after a mission. :toilet_claw:
On another note: I was up at the Rough and Tumble show in Kinzer, Pa. with my four Otto & Langen models a few weeks ago. They put me up in the Willock building and I was right across the aisle from the three full size Otto & Langen engines they have on exhibit (two of which I’ve modeled) I had a great time. I was also a hop, skip, and jump away from Bethel, Pa. I would have stopped by had I realized.
Jo: One of the engineering aspects of this engine is the slipper rings. I had to draw this up in my CAD system to actually see these things in operation. For those who don’t know… where most radial/rotary engines have a master connecting rod with all other slave connecting rods attached to a disk on the main rod with a bolt; the Le Rhone is different. It has no master connecting rod, but rather a disk on the crankshaft with concentric groves cut into it. Each connecting rod is connected to the disk with “slippers” that fit the groves in the disk. The nine connecting rod slippers have convex ends that can slide back and forth in the disk groves as required as the engine case revolves. They don’t slide much, probably less than ten to fifteen degrees but they do slip in the groves. I’m going to attempt to model this. This will take some very close tolerance fitting so the engine doesn’t have a lot of “rod knocks” when it runs. I’m eager to give this a go.
The slipper rings are certainly an issue, but the real problem was fitting the intake and exhaust cams, the cam rockers, and the gearing that drives the cams inside a scale size engine case. I can’t make a ring-gear in my shop as the full size uses to drive the cam disks, so I’m stuck with spur gearing. With a little “finagling” I managed to squeeze everything in.
Doug: :-[
Sometimes you get so deep into the forest that you can’t see the trees. I have no excuse, but I’m sure glad you caught this. I’d have made a scale model of a “nothing” had you not pointed this out. THANKS!
Finally, Dave: Glad to have you along!
So, let’s try this again…. A few photos of the Le Rhone 9C
(https://i.postimg.cc/QNy23DN2/Le-Rhone-9-C-front-view-6.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/L4JHfNJM/Le-Rhone-9-C-Rear-View.jpg)
I’ve revised the CAD drawing. Fortunately, the required changes didn’t cause too much of a fuss inside the engine case, and in-fact the re-positioning of a few components might have helped a bit.
(https://i.postimg.cc/k4tpM6gL/External-Final-1.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/htyy9bJH/External-Final-2.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/66rMHN2V/External-Final-3.jpg)
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This is going to be good!
:cheers:
Dave
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Hello Craig,
A 150 cc, 12inch diameter, 1/3 scale model, based on the Le Rhone 9C engine will still be an impressive engine. !/3 scale is a nice size, the components are big enough to be worked on normal model engineers equipment and avoids the need for watchmakers skills (and eyesight). You have made a sensible decision to have detachable heads and separate cylinders, that will make the model so much easier to make.
You have to admire the engineering that went into these engines at the turn of the last century. Back then, the world was still very much in the 'steam age' where heavy castings and the need to keep the cylinders hot, were the norm. The age of manned flight needed a complete change in design philosophy and construction methods. The engines needed to be light weight and also needed to be cooled. Deep fining of the cylinders and especially the cylinder heads was not yet fully understood, so spinning the cylinders seemed a logical step at the time; although that complicated the art of flying the machines. I find it amazing, considering the simplicity of the machine tools available, that they were able to make those thin walled cylinders with integral heads. We are talking about wall thicknesses of a millimeter or two. The French lead the way, first with the Gnome and then the Le Rhone engines.
There is anecdotal evidence, that in the early years at least, there was an unwritten Gentlemen's agreement that any flyer forced to land behind enemy lines, due to the effects of the Caster oil would be allowed to take off again afterwards. This was when gentlemen fought air battles, things soon to became more uncivilised and serious.
Mike
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Craig,
Well, easier to change things on the computer than after metal has been cut. Unless you were aiming to build that rare, reverse rotation LeRhône used in the southern hemisphere where the drains run the opposite direction.. ::)
The 80hp LeRhône has some tricky milling in the cam case for cam follower clearance that would have made for some challenging machining, as well as some thin walls. The 110hp eliminated that and was a little better in that manufacturing respect, but the trade off is it is a more difficult shape for the trepanning operation to carve out the cavity. All done at the time with that new wonder tool material, High Speed Steel!
I did not go into the Willock building at R&T this year as none of the exhibits in there 'ever changes'. Pity, as I missed out on seeing the Otto & Langen models.
-Doug
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Doug
Sorry I missed you at R&T this year. You need to take a swing through the Willock building though as things have changed. Along with the excellently executed Otto & Langen models :lolb: you will see a full size 3rd generation Otto & Langen, built by Bill Hazzard and a very early, 1885? Deutz engine on loan from the Henry Ford Museum. Also, the O&L Crossley, which has been at R&T for abut 4 years now.
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Another interesting project Craig, I will enjoy following along.
Dave
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Another of your interesting unusual engines. It looks like it will be quite a challenge.
I will certainly be watching along.
MJM460
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I wish I'd known R&T was on this year; might well have attended.
Great project here.
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this will be an interesting project i will be following
I wonder how they went building the original engines how did they make the cylinders and what numbers of these
engines were made it must have been quite a challenge with the materials and equipment at that time.
John
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I wonder how they went building the original engines how did they make the cylinders and what numbers of these engines were made...
According to Gérard Hartmann in his monograph "Moteurs de légende : Le Rhône" 2004 it was "More than 10,000, including 5,600 in France by Gnome et Rhône from 1915 to 1917, 1,300 in Britain" No mention of the ones made in the USA under license. The 9J, 9Ja, 9Jb, and 9Jby (110 to 130hp) is given as "9350 ex (Gnome and Rhône), 1100 (Britain), Italy, Germany, Sweden, United States (1400)". The aforementioned monograph has a lot of background information on the evolution of the LeRhône, in French. However it is surprising how far you can get by running it in batches through Google translate!
The 9C (80hp) was certainly made in the USA, as seen in the first attached image.
As to the question of how they made the cylinders, turret lathes, lots of turret lathes. While not terribly clear in these photos, photos of other rotary cylinder fin cutting operations show the use of a gang of parting type tools. The LeRhône (and the Gnome 9B) had the boss for the sparkplug brazed in, so they could turn the upper fins uninterrupted. Engines like the Clerget required the top several fins to be milled so as to leave a island of material for the sparkplug boss. There is a video on the Imperial War Museum website showing the head fin milling operation on a Clerget cylinder head using an early vertical miller, starting about a 1:48 into the film. The rest of the film is interesting too.
https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/1060022698
Though I cannot see if a template or stops are being used to set the spacing and length. Examining the milling marks on the head fins of LeRhône 9C and 9J, they too used a endmill type cutter with a slight side taper and corner radius. However the fins on the LeRhône have an added complication of sweeping through an arc, to match the combustion chamber and have a uniform (approximately) cylinder head wall thickness.
-Doug
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Thanks for showing
each machine set to do an operation and the part moved to the next machine for the next operation
basic machine tools just lots of them with lots of people to run them and lots to do lots of hand work.
John
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Really looking forward to following this build (as well as Steamers and Vixens builds).
Love those old photographs. Amazing what could be achieved back in those early years.
Colin
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Those pictures bring back memories of the era when I worked in manufacturing. NC machining was in its infancy. Screw machines and turret lathes were the height of automation. Those engines were made when labor was cheap and technology was expensive. It was the beginning of more and more advanced manufacturing techniques.
Lohring Miller
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What’d ya say? Eh?... Eh?... EH???
(https://i.postimg.cc/zvgRNYPX/Hearing-Aids.jpg)
I was fitted with my first set of hearing aids yesterday; as you can see, I went with the economy model. :Lol:
No, really; these things have progressed quote a bit since my Grand Dad had his pair. Now they even have a smart phone App to monitor, adjust, and fine tune them. So, I sat at Friday lunch today, amongst the guys, and fiddled with the phone app. It’s kind of like going to the optometrist, is THIS better? or possibly, THIS? :thinking:
Regardless though, I will tell you that the world sounds significantly different with them turned on than off. There is no ‘silver bullet’ to eradicate hearing loss; time will tell just how effective these things will be for me.
On a less personal note, Thanks to everyone who is responding and especially to Doug, who added some additional historical information to this thread. I appreciate all the added information that gives more relevance to this historic engine.
I started on the machining for the Le Rhone today. I had an immediate false start when I turned on the lathe. The sound it was making wasn’t what I was used to hearing and I stopped it immediately before I realized that it probably was the hearing aids, and when I turned the bloody things of; that suspicion was confirmed.
Here I have a 5 ½ inch diameter piece of Aluminum chucked up in the lathe and I’m making a facing cut to square the end. This will become the engine case after “some” work. :Jester:
(https://i.postimg.cc/262D20dk/1.jpg)
Just a bit of work done today; as I stated the pace will be a bit slower on this build. Here I’ve turned the diameter to the extreme outside cross-section dimension. The outside surface of the engine case is sort-of elliptical in shape. I’ve used a parting tool to establish the inboard diameter up against the lathe chuck. Tomorrow Ill start whittling down this surface to form the outside contour.
(https://i.postimg.cc/8Pb0W7HG/2.jpg)
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Craig--you are a bold man to set out on such a journey. Best of luck with your build.---Brian Rupnow
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That's a mighty big piece of aluminum! I'll in for the duration!!
Dave
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this will be interresting. I have a 1934 Gnome Rhone motorcycle. in their logo they used the aircraft engine (see logo on tank).
good luck :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
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That's quite a bike.
It looks like it includes lots of things that would have been considered advanced for the era.
I'm not a motorcycle guy but I like looking at the history of technology development.
If it runs I bet I would like the sound, too.
ShopShoe
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Thanks for stopping by to see the latest. Special thanks to:
Brian- I was looking for a challenge, hope I didn’t bite off more than I can chew!
Dave- I too was surprised how big it was when I picked it up from the supplier. It’s big enough that I ought to be able to see what I’m doing when I make all those small parts that fit inside and whirl around.
Pieterb and Shopshoe- interesting to see a Le Rhône motorcycle. I hadn’t even though about what other products might have been made by the company.
Well, as promised, I spent a little time on the exterior of the engine case, trying to make a flat surface conform to an ellipse- biased toward the chuck side of the lathe. I managed to hit my two outside dimensions and the middle dimension too. This was more artistic work with some initial flats with the turning tools followed by LOTS of filing by progressively finer files and then some sand paper. I’m pretty happy with the result.
(https://i.postimg.cc/XY2SfckF/20210911-134244.jpg)
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Great result making a difficult 'organic' shape :praise2:
While I can do a decent single rounding by hand (90 degree corner to round) - compounded radiouses flowing together is altogether a different matter ....
I will also be in the Peanut gallery following this build :popcorn: :cheers:
Per
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I will be following with interest :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :wine1:
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Per and Roger; thanks for your encouragement and comments. Thanks also for those of you who are stopping by to see the latest.
Not a lot to show for an afternoons effort, but I’m down to my first diameter in opening up the engine case. A view of the progress below:
(https://i.postimg.cc/fLTk62HZ/20210912-163314.jpg)
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I hear ya Craig...but it's looking great!..
Can you finish it in this setup? or will you need to wait for some mating parts to finish it up?
Dave
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I'll be watching along! What sort of 'paper' documents were you able to source for this engine & what is your CAD modeler? Wondering out loud if you imported scans as kind of a overall starting point & started developing from there, or what your overall workflow was in this regard? I've seen a few CAD assembly movies of rotary's some component motion, boggles my simple mind. My radial has locked down cylinders & that is proving to be complicated enough LoL.
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Thanks for stopping by to see the latest.
Petertha: I spent some time looking for some detail original prints; I understand a full set is available. I did get a few original prints from ‘The journal of the early aerpolane’, the May 2010 publication where they have several prints that give excellent detail. Though they provide a good view of some of the internal parts of the engine, I honestly can’t reproduce many of those parts with the tooling available in my home shop. They did provide some good guidance.
Internally, I designed the parts inside the engine case of this model, keeping in mind what I could execute with the tooling available, and with my skills. This removed some of the complication. Also, scaling some parts down by 1/3rd would make them ridiculously small and/or thin and might not hold-up in practice on a model.
My CAD software is Alibre Design, professional; in fact, I just paid my maintenance fee for the next year. You can run the software without current maintenance, but I use it so much I figure I ought to keep the maintenance current.
My workflow…. Pretty loose. I get as many accurate measurements I can of the full size and as many photos from different views as possible. Then I start drawing the main parts, trying to make the external ones look a close to the full size as practical. Using a feature of the software, I assemble the parts as I go to check for compatibility and to check that the scale is remaining reasonable. As I draw each part, I try to keep in mind that I’m going to need to actually MAKE that part, so I don’t draw anything that I think I can’t make.
As stated above, none of my ‘scale’ models are truly scale. I try to make them look reasonably accurate to the original, but I’m not ad versed to cutting a few corners if I feel I need to.
Dave: Boy, I wish! There will be many operations in trying to make this chunk of aluminum resemble the casting of the full size, and also provide the internal clearances and attach points for the internals I’ve designed. I can see at least two, maybe more, fixtures I‘ll need to make to facilitate the machining of this part.
Maybe I should have given y’all a view of the engine case I’ve designed so you can see where I’m headed. Two views from my CAD software.
(https://i.postimg.cc/QtmL5ZHc/Case-1.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/85j3Ffgg/Case-2.jpg)
I finished about all the work on this side of the part on the lathe with this setup. Below I’ve hollowed out the case as much as I can on this side with the lathe.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Nf2JdZsw/20210913-100134.jpg)
Speaking of fixtures. Below you’ll see the first; a disk that will help me center the piece on the turntable as I do some additional work on the front of this engine case 'casting' part.
(https://i.postimg.cc/85335Gpt/20210913-113632.jpg)
And so below, I have the part sitting in the fixture on the mill. The first step was to mill the part down to the designed height of 2 ½ inches.
(https://i.postimg.cc/x1t68QgM/20210913-121338.jpg)
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Hello Craig,
This brings back memories of machining the crankcases for the two Bristol Mercury engines. Large billets of aluminium, gradually being reduced to a huge pile of chips. You can make good progress at first as you rough out the basic shape. That's followed by intricate work on the mill to add cylinder and push rod detail. Each set-up and operation becomes more and more tense as you put more and more work into the crankcase. Measure twice, cut once, goes out the door, you measure a million times before committing to the next cut.
It's so rewarding when you get there and it looks like you are well on your way to an excellent engine. I'm following every move but may not be making comments all that often.
Nice job so far. :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Mike
Real engines are round.
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Thanks for stopping by to see the latest developments.
Mike: your words of encouragement (as well as everyone else’s) are always welcome, and I don’t expect anyone to respond to every post, or every other, or… you get the idea.
I was thinking yesterday afternoon, after I’d tidied up the shop for the day, about my next few planned operations; and I decided to take a slightly different approach. I was planning on milling out the lip at the front of the case as well as removing some material with the mill. The new plan is to use the lathe which I’m thinking will give me a better result.
So today, I first made another ‘fixture’, just like the one I made yesterday, but this one fitting the opening at the front of the case. Below is a photo of the engine case sitting on the turntable, being centered by the fixture I made this-morning.
(https://i.postimg.cc/L41SZcbn/20210914-115819.jpg)
I’m not going to use the turntable as a turntable in this operation; I’m just using it to conveniently center and hold the engine case. The morning was spent drilling and tapping these 18 holes in the rear of the engine case. I just used the X/Y on the mill to locate them, the measurements coming directly off the drawing computed by Alibre.
(https://i.postimg.cc/NF1ZPw3D/20210914-130900.jpg)
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It bugged me enough that I had to go look up the Rhone valving mechanism...kept wondering where you hid the exhaust valve pushrod?
Only to find that the Rhone used one "push" rod and cam, that pushes one way to open the exhaust, and then pulls the opposite direction to open the intake (or vice versa?). So not a real pushrod, more a push-and-pullrod. In any case, the design is said to limit the speed and power output of the engine because you can't overlap the valve timings, though it is also said the engine gets about as much speed and power as the materials and structure could withstand at the time, so no problem.
Fun stuff in any case, and will be following this build too, thanks for the posts so far Craig! :popcorn:
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Hi Craig, you've shifted some alloy already, in that crankcase! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Re valves, number of - many WW1 Le Rhone rotary aircraft engines were "monosoupape" or "one valve" types. These had a pushrod driven exhaust valve / castor oil spew, but the intake valve was in the centre of each piston. As the piston fell, the inlet valve would open and allow a fresh fuel / air / oil charge into the cylinder. The inlet valve was lightly sprung, like atmospheric inlet valves on hit and miss engines. Could your engine, with the "hide the inlet valve" game, be a monosoupape design? The piston is the place to look on the plans to see. Just a thought.
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Craig,
I have a book on Rotary Engines of World War One, by William Morse which covers and Intro to Rotary engines and then some further detail on the Gnome, the MonoSoupape, the Le Rhone, the Clerget and finally the Bentley BR1. With the Le Rhone it basically covers the 110hp 9J version and covers the conrod/crankpin assembly, valve operation, cam action, sequence of inlet cam operation, cam profiles. If any of this info is any use to you, I can scan it in and send it to your email.
Colin
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Could your engine, with the "hide the inlet valve" game, be a monosoupape design?
I think I can shed some light on this question. The LeRhône was not a monosoupe ("one valve") engine. Those were built by Gnome (Société Des Moteurs Gnome), but the two companies did merge; Gnome buying out LeRhône and the deal completed in January 1915 becoming Gnome et Rhône. So perhaps legally one could say LeRhône made a monosoupe, but it actually was the Gnome side of the business.
The early Gnomes with the inlet valve in the piston crown were not monosoupe either, since they did have a two valves; one in the piston crown and one in the top of the cylinder head. The inlet, or more accurately transfer valve in the piston had counterweights and springs to try and make it neutrally balanced under centrifugal forces. A lot of the air used for combustion was sucked back in through the exhaust valve, diluting the transferred fuel rich mixture from the crankcase down to the proper stochiometric ratio. But the transfer valve mechanisms were rather delicate, fiddley, the seating prone to carboning up, and so unreliable. So Gnome designed the 9B2 of 100hp, extensively used by he Allies, which eliminated the valve in the piston and used transfer ports in the cylinder walls instead. (There was a preceding - almost identical - 9B1 had a rather interesting variable cam timing mechanism, adjustable in flight. Also complicated and no doubt unnecessary weight. I do not thing it went into major production.) Towards the end of the war they redesigned the 9B2 and produced the 9N of 160hp. Cams went from nine to six and the valve, rather than having a stem working in a guide, the was loosely attached to the tip of the valve rocker and so worked through an arc. You would think it would not seal very well, but it worked! The Gnome 9N are rather hard to find documentation on, or so I have found. Nothing in the National Archives (Kew, UK) other than a general arrangement section view. It was explained to me only the US and the French used them in the smaller scouts as the Brits were focusing on the more powerful Clerget, and right at the end of the war, the Bentley. Though I did not find anything in our National Archine at Collage Park, MD, USA; but perhaps SAFRAN in France would have something. Anyway, I digress.
Also, pistons do not rise and fall in a rotary engine. More correct to say the cylinder rises and falls over the piston due to the eccentricity of the center of the crankcase relative to the center of the crankpin. Semantics? Well no, rotaries do not need to have weights to counteract reciprocating masses of the pistons and rods. They just whirl around their center, and the crankcase and cylinders whirl around their center. It was one of the things that allowed rotaries to be lighter than the early radial engines, and gave them a advantageous power to weight ratio. But there was a down side too, well covered in the development of aviation engine books. Also, the early Gnome engines with the transfer valve in the piston would never been able to be fine-tuned to work as a lightly sprung atmospheric inlet type valve with the valve flapping up and down under inertial loads. The counter balance would have also needed to change with the rpm. So a darn good thing rotary pistons do not reciprocate.
I know early Stoddard Dayton cars also used a push/pull rod and a common rocker arm for the inlet and exhaust valve. As noted, while minimizing the number of components (and weight) it does mean you can not have any valve overlap. When the seven cylinder version of what would become the LeRhône 9C was being developed c1910 it would seem that valve overlap was not appreciated, felt not to be required, or was considered and acceptable trade-off to simplify the valve gear. It becomes more important the faster an engine runs, though circa 1910 LeRhône were rated at 1100rpm and by the time of the 110hp 9J only up to 1200rpm. Subsequent LeRhônes (1917-20) with a conventional two pushrod arrangement where rated in the 1300 to 1400rpm range so not a great increase; but maybe enough that the lack of valve overlap started to impact performance. Engines like the Clerget were rated at 1250rpm (more or less), so the LeRhône was equitable to its peers rpm-wise. There is a limit to which direct drive engines can turn before the tip of the propeller goes super sonic and so looses efficiency. So I think it was done to save weight.
-Doug
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Safran has a museum in France with all the engines they made on display. They also have a heritage center. I think they can provide all the info wanted on these engines. They also have a motorcycle department. I asked them info on my motorcycle and they are very helpful.
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Wow! I’ll need to brush up on my 2 years of high school French, and buy my airplane tickets. :ThumbsUp: Probably a pipe dream for me to get over there though. Nice to know there is information available and what you describe as friendly folks who are willing to help.
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Safran has a museum in France with all the engines they made on display. They also have a heritage center. I think they can provide all the info wanted on these engines....... and they are very helpful.
That sounds just like the way the Bristol branch of the RR Heritage Trust were a few years ago. But things have changed.
Mike
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Thanks for stopping by, and it’s great to see the discussion regarding the Le Rhône and it’s siblings. It seems as though all the questions have been answered, some better than I would have. :embarassed:
Progress continued on the engine case. I spent all of yesterday making another fixture which will be used to hold the engine case for several future operations. You see a view of the fixture below:
(https://i.postimg.cc/SK8GjyFM/20210916-091734.jpg)
The first operation to use this fixture was to finish the roughing of the front of the inside of the engine case and then establishing a lip for the front cover. Here I have the engine case mounted on the fixture and then the fixture mounted on the lathe. I was eager to see just how much runout I would have with this set up and I measured the runout to be around 3 thousandths of an inch. I considered this acceptable. I want to keep all these little errors as small as possible since they will be cumulative and I don’t want the front of the engine to be out of true too far. I’m using the collets on the lathe to get as true of a mount as possible.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Nfk63N81/20210916-101338.jpg)
With the lip for the font cover established I have the engine case back on the mill and I’ve spotted, drilled, and tapped the holes which will be used to mount the front cover.
(https://i.postimg.cc/P5fR9vD5/20210916-115306.jpg)
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Craig,
Just wanted to let you know I'm following along. Somehow you managed to get to page 3 hm...maybe I was just to sleepy to make an intelligent reply. The rotary's were a fascinating piece of work.
Art
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Each set-up and operation becomes more and more tense as you put more and more work into the crankcase. Measure twice, cut once, goes out the door, you measure a million times before committing to the next cut.
Mike
But Mike, you didn't say I needed to look at the drawing 'millions' of times :embarassed:
I have made a colossal error :censored: in interpreting the drawings. I could blame it on the drawings... but then I made them too so there is no way to squirm out from under this. I'm going to need to get another piece of aluminum and start again.
so.... this thread will be dark for a while (at least in the area of progress posts) till I get back to where I was with the last post, and maybe I'll look a little harder at the drawings with this go.
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Hello Craig,
Rats. :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:
There must be some way for you to recover it??
Mike
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Sorry to hear that Craig. Good luck with the recovery steps. Now pulling the blackout curtains for "dark thread". :ThumbsUp: :cheers:
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That's a shame, Craig. Not much relief to hear we all do those things, but we do. At least I do! :ShakeHead:
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Oh man! Sorry to hear that Craig...at least you have some of the fixturing done right?
Dave
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The only thing worse than making an outright mistake, is to misread your own drawings. Been there, done that. You have my heartfelt sympathy. I know you will carry on and redo whatever is wrong, but sometimes life just sucks!!!
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Such is the beauty of back-checking our own work.....[we 'sometimes' never see our own error :facepalm:]
Just as a thought, could you not rotate the disk cover by 10 degrees :hammerbash: & provide a new 18 holes on the alternate PCD? ....
Derek
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The only thing worse than making an outright mistake, is to misread your own drawings. Been there, done that. You have my heartfelt sympathy. I know you will carry on and redo whatever is wrong, but sometimes life just sucks!!!
Been there too :facepalm:
Interesting build! Been half hartedly starting (and stopped) building a Bentley. Will never be completed, the bare case and a sorry excuse for a crank is all that was made.. Rotaries are interesting!
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That is the reason why I always checks my Boss drawings and he always checks mine => this reduces the amount of errors quite a lot ...!!!!
Shame that most of us don't have somebody close at hand doing the same with our hobby projects - though 3D CAD can be very helpful here ....
So yes - I have done my share of things I'm not proud of :facepalm:
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Craig,
Really you didn't need to scrap a part to make me feel better. Unfortunately we have all made these sort of mistakes. I have a cylinder head with the holes .020 off center cause I couldn't read my own writing.
Art
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Thanks for stopping by to see the latest. Thanks also for all the condolences. I’ve put in a few marathon sessions in the shop the last few days and I’m back on track with a newly fabricated engine case.
The next step was to cut the ‘flats’ for the cylinders. I decided to do this work using the fixture I made above and my dividing head. I’ve mounted the engine case on the mill and am using my dividing head to index the engine case to the nine cylinder locations.
Below I’ve cut the flats to mount the cylinders. Not much left of that curved surface I made on the lathe.
(https://i.postimg.cc/xTNrbwcw/20210920-141820.jpg)
Next I drilled location holes to spot the cylinder mounts. These will be holes, drilled and threaded to accept the cylinders. More on that in a future post.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Kz8wcV6s/20210920-143800.jpg)
Next I located and drilled/tapped the mounts for the intake ducts. These mounts will need a little further work but I can’t finish them with the current setup.
(https://i.postimg.cc/P5n7vPGD/20210920-163031.jpg)
Lastly, I drilled/tapped the mounts for the push/pull rods. These holes are drilled at a 7 1/2 degree angle from their respective cylinder flat. This was done by spotting the location for the hole, rotating the dividing head the required amount, and then moving the mill table over the spotted hole and drilling/tapping the push/pull rod mount.
(https://i.postimg.cc/MTckbN9f/20210920-173846.jpg)
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Thanks for dropping by to see the latest.
I’ve been going slow and making sure I don’t experience another error that might make me start a third time. :embarassed:
This second go round, I’ve re-ordered the steps of make things a bit more straightforward, so if I might have missed explaining a step. I did decide to go back and bore the cylinder opening mounts up to near the full size. I plan to thread these on the lathe, after making another fixture to hold the engine case.
In the following photo I’ve formed the mount flanges that will be used to hold the gear baffles that will drive the cam disks. I realize it’s hard to see, until I cut away a but more material from the inside if the case.
(https://i.postimg.cc/cJFDz6f2/20210925-161200.jpg)
The last step I need to do inside this engine case is to form the flats under the nine cylinder openings. I've completed three of the nine flats. I need to do this because I will use some retaining nuts I’ll fabricate to lock the cylinders in place. I'm using that 12 inch rotary table my friend loaned to me on a semi-permanent basis.
(https://i.postimg.cc/qv0jM2LW/20210925-165809.jpg)
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Wow. Just, wow....
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That's looking magnificent Craig! Go Slow.....think about what you're doin. We'll wait!
Dave
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Pretty awe-inspiring work there, Craig! :popcorn:
Kim
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Hello Craig,
That crankcase is pure eye candy
To my eyes, there is nothing that can beat the brilliance of light refected off freshly machined aluminium surfaces. The interaction of the light reflected off the bores and the nine facets of the Le Rhone crankcase, make it look like the a mechanical jemstone. Beautifully executed.
The only pity is the brilliance fades with time as the aluminium surfaces slowely oxidise in the air.
Well done, :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Mike
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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That's some splendid machining :praise2: :praise2: :wine1: How do you keep track of the steps, a notepad, chart or similar?
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Chris, Kim, Dave, Mike, CNR, and Roger; thanks for your kind complements. This engine case has been trying. Still a bit more to go- but I can see the light at the end of the tunnel.
Thanks also for everyone else who stops by to see the latest.
Today, I finished the remainder of the flats inside the engine case. A photo of the “near complete” engine case is shown below:
(https://i.postimg.cc/j5ZqZwMS/1.jpg)
The last remaining task is finishing the boring and then threading the openings in which the cylinders will mount. The cylinders thread onto the engine case with the original and this seemed like a reasonable attachment method. The problem, of course, is that buying a large tap for this one-time use would be foolish. I thought I might-could thread the cylinder mount holes on the lathe, using another ‘fixture’; and what a strange fixture it is. Below I’ve started carving it out of a chunk of 5 ½ inch by 6 ½ inch by 1 ½ inch aluminum. Here I’ve just located the corners of the recesses and drilled holes for clearance.
(https://i.postimg.cc/TYZd7XJg/2.jpg)
Next was the task of hollowing out the inside of the fixture. This was done on the turn table so I was sure to get the angles right.
(https://i.postimg.cc/13hS0ryK/3.jpg)
With the fixture mounted on the lathe in the 4-jaw chuck and the engine case mounted in the fixture, I’ve made a centering locator that fits snugly in the cylinder mount hole and I’m centering the fixture with attached engine case. I am delighted with the rigidity of this setup. It allows me to finish boring the cylinder openings and threading them with negligible movement of the engine case.
(https://i.postimg.cc/FK1QNWpN/4.jpg)
Below I’m finishing the bore of the first cylinder mounting hole, widening the opening to 1.094 inches in preparation to threading the cylinder mounting hole.
(https://i.postimg.cc/FKSDy0s0/5.jpg)
Next was threading the opening at 32 TPI. I want a fine thread so that I can adjust the position of the cylinder in the engine case without it experiencing much in-out movement.
(https://i.postimg.cc/PxzychDx/6.jpg)
When making a finished internal thread with the lathe, I always have made a piece with a finished external thread so I can ‘test’ to know when the threads I’m cutting are the correct size. I’ve pre-prepared this steel plug that simulates a cylinder. I can use it so that I’ll know when the threaded hole size is correct and by using it with all the cylinder mount holes, all the threaded cylinder mount holes should be identical in size.
(https://i.postimg.cc/pTxYK7St/7.jpg)
One down, eight more to go. This is a long, tedious, time consuming process. The steps to create each of the nine threaded cylinder mount openings needs repeated, starting with centering the fixture with attached engine case in the 4-jaw chuck. This is a lot of detail work so it will take some time to complete this.
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Wow, that's a really cool setup for boring and threading the cylinder holes. That is just neat. That will be quite a job to get all 9 of those done!
Kim
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Craig,
The picture of the engine case sitting on the drawing is a real delight! I've been following along for a few days and been impressed and inspired all along.
Your approach to making a very complicated part is a lesson in how things really should be ("need to be" in this case) done.
I'm going to be nervous until the part is finished!
David
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I'm really enjoying following along, Craig. Not only is your machining work beautiful, but your posts are full of good tips and ideas. :ThumbsUp:
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My awe in your work is only paralleled by that of your tailor...... He is surly a skilled maker or trousers!!! 8)
Keep it coming Craig....I'm loving this!
:popcorn: :DrinkPint:
Dave
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Sorry Craig, I had difficulty in understanding what I was seeing :facepalm:....until I rotated the setup block 180 degrees :Doh: ......
When I go back to the original, I still see 4 of the 5 intersecting holes appearing as drilled :hammerbash: @ an angle
I thought I had a reasonable ability to visually understand complex shapes, but just proves me behind the 8 ball here
So, did everyone else :stickpoke: find the image easy to comprehend?
Brilliant work
Derek
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That engine case is a real piece of jewelry, stunning!
:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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So, did everyone else :stickpoke: find the image easy to comprehend?
I wasn't sure what I was looking at till I saw it in use in the next few pictures. Then it made sense. I'm not sure I can blame it on the picture's orientation, though. :D
Kim
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It’s like one of those puzzle pictures, where different people see totally different content.
Like Derek and others, I saw the pattern of machining marks and was trying to make a sensible 3-d form out of that.
Again like others, after looking at the following pictures, I finally started looking at the shape of the plain surface surrounding all that detail, and it suddenly appeared out of the confusion.
Not only remarkable design ability, but remarkable work and brilliant photography.
Thanks Craig, for allowing us to see what goes on in your workshop. I never miss an update.
MJM460
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Craig,
That is lovely work. I cannot imagine the level of concentration need to repeat all the operations exactly the same 9 times over.
Regards,
Colin
:popcorn:
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Wow! I am assuming the threading went at dead slow rpm? Fixtures like that make sense, but also make me nervous...the first time at least. I bet you will breathe a deep sigh once all the holes get threaded.
:o :cheers: :popcorn:
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Yes Derek, it took me a while to figure out what I was looking at too, in the end it made sense, especially then when I saw it holding the crankcase. At first I saw it as a form on top of the holding block, not a block with the innards milled out so you were looking at a hole rather than an external form. Glad some others struggled initially to figure it out too!
That said, lovely workmanship and clever thinking in the design department, well done so far Craig, nice one, love the work, following on with interest on the build of an interesting and by todays standard an unusual engine as all those rotary engines were.
Chris
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Thanks to everyone who replied to my last post. Thanks also to those of you who silently stop by to see the goings-on.
Yea, the photo of the fixture above wasn’t the best. It even puzzled me for a few minutes. :thinking: I was going to take a better one but the fixture was on the lathe, in the middle of the process of threading the cylinder mount holes so I just went with what I had.
Bent: I didn't really know how well this fixture would work; the process exceeded my expectations. With the whole thing out of balance, all the machining (boring and threading) was done at fairly slow speeds.
Dave: don’t get the comment regarding the trousers; but then, a lot just passes over my head. :shrug:
This morning I started with the boring/threading of number 2 cylinder mount hole. Things just got into a rhythm and I was planning to do about half of them today, then finish up tomorrow; but it was all going so well I just stayed with it and finished them all just as the day was waning.
After a little filing/sanding to remove the tool marks I give you a few photos of the FINISHED :cartwheel: engine case.
(https://i.postimg.cc/x1G5J12n/20210928-181505.jpg[width=400])
(https://i.postimg.cc/YC2RFwqF/20210928-181522.jpg[width=400])
The next logical choice is to start on the cylinders. I’ll need to get the material for them and I’ve been vacillating between using cast iron or aluminum. If I make them out of aluminum I’ll need to prepare a cast iron sleeve for each cylinder but I’m still leaning toward aluminum. The heads will be cast iron so I have a good base for the valve guides.
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That looks fabulous, Craig! :praise2:
There's a TON of work in that part!
Kim
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Beautiful work Craig!
Dave
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Superb. Put that up on a pillow under a light, sit back in your rocker, and admire. You've earned it!
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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You got through!!! Well done Craig!
Dave
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Just lovely. A bit of engine, but a bit to be well proud of. Looking forward to the cylinders!
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Craig,
I have to admit the fixture photo had me scratching my head, till the light went on, brilliant. It leaves me much more at peace knowing you finished the case.
Art
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Well done Craig, that crankcase was not one easy straightforward piece to make, lovely job.
Chris
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Amazing work :praise2:
Though I love aluminium - it do have one not so nice 'quality' - it can easily do a Cold-Weld :hammerbash:
If this happens with an Alu-cylinder inside your fantastic engine-block .... it will more or less be stuck in that position for eternity ..!!!!
So I would consider a steel / cast-iron cylinder with a aluminium cooling jacket - if you want the aluminium look.
Someone else might have a great solution to avoid these Cold-Welds.
Just thinking out loud .... :cheers:
Per
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Whew! Glad to see it completed, congrats Craig! :cheers::whoohoo:
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Beautiful work Craig! So glad that you got through all the cylinder threading without mishap.
FWIW - I support Per's comments about carefully considering the use of aluminium for the cylinders. Aluminium on aluminium is bad enough but the fine pitch of these threads is going to add to the challenge. If my Gnome Mono is any evidence, you'll be assembling and dis-assembling those parts many times before you're done! (Full disclosure - my Gnome has 12L14 cylinders and a 4140 crankcase so I've no experience with aluminium in this area.)
Charlie
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Thanks for all the comments, and for all of you who stop by.
Also, thanks for the recommendation to think twice regarding aluminum on aluminum. I'm hoping I might have thought of that myself… but probably not till everything galled together and I’d been stuck with a mess. :facepalm: That’s one of the things I really like about this forum; someone sees one of the builders about ready to do something not quite so swift and they are willing to step up and make an informed recommendation. :old:
So… the cylinders will be grey cast iron; a material which I just love to work, and would love it even more if everything didn’t get covered with that fine black talcum powder dust that makes such a mess.
I’ve ordered the cast iron, and while that’s coming I’ve managed to solicit a paying job :whoohoo: that might actually help pay for some of the materials.
I suspect more progress on the model to commence later in this next week.
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:ThumbsUp:
Looking good Craig!
:popcorn:
John
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Thanks for stopping by to see the latest; also, thanks for your kind comment John.
To be honest, I’ve been holding out making this next update. If things went south (wow, that’s a Yankee slur I need to stop using now that I LIVE in the south :disagree:) I was going to need to eat some crow, and since I’ve just done some of that lately :embarassed:, I wasn’t looking for a double dose. Things turned out ok though, so here we go.
Taking the advice of several of you, I decided to abandon using aluminum for my cylinder material. I chose grey cast iron. McMaster Carr sells some very nice, readily machine able stuff I’ve used in the past so I placed my order and waited the few days for delivery. Here you use the first cylinder blank set up in the lathe. I’ve faced the end and am starting to work it down to my first, largest diameter.
(https://i.postimg.cc/66gmLpMM/1.jpg)
In the next photo below I’ve established all the required diameters and I’m threading the end of the cylinder that screws into the engine case. I’m using the same process to check thread diameter; that is, trial fitting the engine case till I get a good snug fit. I’m going to label the engine case as to cylinder and then number the cylinders so that as I assemble and dis assemble, all the cylinders stay with the mount hole to which they were fitted. This shouldn’t matter, since I was careful to get all nine of the cinder mounts on the engine case uniform in size, but it doesn’t hurt to be a bit pedantic with this.
(https://i.postimg.cc/JzWYvdVJ/2.jpg)
Of course I couldn’t thread all the way up to the stop, so I’m clearing unthreaded material out so the cylinder will snug up against the engine case.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Nj7Cc7Bn/3.jpg)
“The proof in in the pudding”, so they say.
(https://i.postimg.cc/1tTJHvr8/4.jpg)
Moving on to the next task, I’ve reversed the cylinder in the lathe and faced it to the correct length (not shown in photos). Here I’ve made the first of several “fixtures” I’ll need to use in order to work the cylinders to completion. This fixture securely holds the cylinder vertical in my mill vice and keeps its orientation “true” regarding rotating in the fixture.
(https://i.postimg.cc/pdcZWs7s/5.jpg)
The next task is drilling the four holes in which I will fit socket head cap screws with which to attach the cylinder heads. I need to drill down nearly 3 ½ inches thru the cylinder material. I gave this a lot of thought regarding how to proceed, knowing that drills have a tendency to wander when drilling deep holes. I thought I might drill from both sides, meeting in the middle; sounded like a fantasy when I said it out loud. I started on the shoulder that will face the engine case. The holes on this end need to have a diameter sufficient to allow the SHCS to recess deep into the cylinder. I drilled these to a depth of 1 ½ inches.
(https://i.postimg.cc/VsCRwBFF/6.jpg)
Turning the fixture over, I drilled the same four holes, allowing for clearance of the 4-40 screws that will be used to attach the head. I drilled these until I broke out in the holes I drilled from the other side.
(https://i.postimg.cc/K8J7f9Zm/7.jpg)
Being a bit pedantic here again, I again reversed the fixture and using a long drill, drilled to a depth of around 2 ½ inches. My thought here was that if there was any miss-alignment when the two holes met, drilling thru into the smaller hole about an inch “might” help re-align the two holes.
(https://i.postimg.cc/BQ3x0Wbq/8.jpg)
The plan either worked, or I’m lucky. Here you see the cylinder, still in its fixture, with the four SHCS in place and ready to attach the cylinder head. All four of these SHCS just dropped into place so my alignment technique worked out quite well.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sXSZkKRQ/9.jpg)
Next I’ll be working on the top of the cylinder, forming the top fins and sparkplug boss.
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I heartily agree on both the use of the fixtures and numbering all the parts, well worth the tiny bit of time needed in the long run. Fascinating to watch this engine come into shape...
:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Great progress, Craig. Love seeing your fixturing and all the steps to get where you go - and the reasoning behind it! :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
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Hello Craig,
I like what your are doing and it's good to see all those fixtures being used. :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Cast iron may be a an excelent material for cylinders but you get so black machining it. I used to tie a white handkerchief around my mouth and nose, that quickly became black as well, but it was better than breathing in the dust. Of course, these days, you could re-use your Covid face mask. Much more fashionable than a bandanna
Keep up the good work
Mike
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That look great Craig!
I guessing that you installed and indexed the fixture while the cylinder was still attached to the crankcase? Maybe I missed that part.
Dave
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More slightly hairy machining (deep drilling in cast iron)! Glad to see it came out straight! :popcorn:
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Chris, Kim, Mike, Dave, and Bent; thanks for your kind comments and support. Thanks also for those just stopping by to see the progress.
I abandoned the above shown cylinder and started a-fresh. No, I didn’t make a machining error; nor did I read the drawings wrong. But; after cutting a few fins; they just didn’t “look right’. They were way too puny. They looked ok on the design but once I actually cut a few they just weren’t ‘right’. We might remember Mike stating:
Deep fining of the cylinders and especially the cylinder heads was not yet fully understood...
but the fins I designed just weren’t big enough. I re-worked the cylinder part in my CAD system, giving it larger fins, and then re-reproduced my drawings. Then started again with a fresh chunk of cast iron, so what you’re seeing below is this second cylinder.
I resume this narrative with my forming the spark plug boss with my rotary milling head.
(https://i.postimg.cc/fyjs9c75/1.jpg)
I plan to cut the majority of the fins on the lathe with a slotting tool but since the spark plug boss prevents cutting the top fins on the lathe I’m using the rotary milling head and a slitting saw for that purpose.
(https://i.postimg.cc/7YwwyRDR/2.jpg)
Choosing to have detachable heads resulted in a whole collage of design changes on the engine.
Since the cylinder bore is now not scale, this resulted in requiring a shorter stroke with commensurate shorter connecting rods since the connecting rods with the original stroke but a smaller bore were interfering with the bottom of the cylinder walls.
Shortening the stroke changed the compression ratio in the cylinders and since I didn’t want to shorten the cylinders out of scale, in order to preserve the 1-5 compression ratio I chose to make the heads a bit thicker and protrude down into the cylinders a bit.
This, course, would cover the spark plug at its scale location. So to correct that problem I’m milling a slot in the side of the cylinder that will be along the side of the cylinder head that protrudes down into the engine so that the compressed fuel/air mixture can be presented in the region of the spark plug when it fires.
(https://i.postimg.cc/HkPgXs5G/3.jpg)
While I have the cylinder in this fixture/jig I thought I’d drill and tap the spark plug location.
(https://i.postimg.cc/nLjtkbYX/4.jpg)
I may have made another blunder with choosing cast iron for the cylinders because the fins are very thin and being cast iron, brittle. Time will tell on that score. I thought I’d go ahead and bore the cylinder before cutting the majority of the cylinder fins because I’m afraid that holding the cylinder in the lathe by the fins to bore the cylinder would probably shatter a bunch of fins. Below is a photo I took during the boring process.
(https://i.postimg.cc/CxdyhT2c/5.jpg)
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Oh My! Craig...I love that set up. Parts look like a serious challenge....you and I will be "eating the same dirt" so I'm watching along. I chose 1144SP for a cylinder material, though another material shown in the SIC literature is 12L14 interestingly enough, with .0002" chrome lining after you lap it...
I was a little concerned about CI..for reasons you stated, but I'm not sure if that is a well founded truth, or just creeping doubts speaking loudly...
I LOVE Volstro heads! did I mention I like Volstro heads?
Dave
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That's some fine threading on the cylinders :praise2: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: Did you do it under power or with a hand crank?
I like your solution the cutting the fins by the spark plug boss :) :) :) :wine1:
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Hello Craig,
I am following along quietly in the background, enjoying your work.
I see you are making changes to the bore, stroke and conrod length and to the method of cylinder attachment. These changes may have hidden consequences, some hidden gotcha's. I can hear warning bells in my head.
The cylinder skirts of the Le Rhone (and most radial/rotary engines) are burried deep in the crankcase to maintain piston contact at the bottom of the stroke, and have 20 degree chamfers to avoid the cylinder skirts clashing. Can this be achieved with screw-in cylinders? You can see how little space there is around the cylinder skirts in this photo of a Bristol Mercury
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1070497.JPG)
You can also see how close the master and slave connecting rods come to colliding with the cylinder walls. On the earlier Bristol Jupiter, which had slightly longer con rods, additional cut outs were required in the cylinder skirts to avoid contact.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1070498.JPG)
Even the piston skirts can clash due to the quirky nature of the master/ slave geometry. The pistons opposite the master rod being worst effected.
(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1070949small.JPG)
(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1070947small.JPG)
I freely admit to being cought out by the piston collisions. They were (not so) clearly shown on the blueprints, but somehow I forgot to machine them.
I see you have a nice 3D model of the Le Rhone, that should be a great help in checking for potential collisions in this area. You will need to be able to rotate the 3D model through 360 degrees to be absolutely certain there are no potential collisions at some obscure rotation angle.
These issues may or may not effect the Le Rhone design but are worth checking at this early stage. I hope my observations will not offend you, I am not trying to be a smart arse, 'know it all'. But, having taken the fall and 'eaten the dirt' myself, I did not want you to get caught by some hidden gotcha.
Cheers
Mike
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Excellent eye Mike!....and a great delivery.....that's the kind of commentary I like to see for sure!!
He MAY be ok...I went back on his pictures...and found this entry
Looks like the cylinder spigots are not quite so deep as the Bristol, but definitely worth looking at Craig.
Dave
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Following along quietly and always thinking, wow impressive.
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Excellent eye Mike!....and a great delivery.....that's the kind of commentary I like to see for sure!!
He MAY be ok...I went back on his pictures...and found this entry
Looks like the cylinder spigots are not quite so deep as the Bristol, but definitely worth looking at Craig.
Dave
Craig,
When I made my comment, I was looking at this cut away drawing posted by Doug from Elam Works in reply #7.
(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/LeRhone-80_01small.JPG)
Does the cylinder skirt on the top right show a 20 degree chamfer, or is it a freak result of the secton cut line? I dunno. :thinking:
Either way, it's worth investing a little time on the 3D model to be sure. You can check for potential conrod and piston clashes at the same time.
I hope I am wrong and there is actually no problem
Mike
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Mike,
The cylinder skirt on the LeRhône 9C stop just inside the crankcase, and do not interfere with each other. The pistons pull well out of the base of the cylinder, and the cutaway you see are on the piston skirts. Craig's engine, being a bit freelance, will be a different situation. Presumably all worked out with his 3D CAD model.
-Doug
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Hello Doug,
Well thats a relief to hear, so maybe Craig will not have a problem after all.
It was a hard call to make. Do I say nothing and wait to see how things turn out for Craig later, or should I alert him?
I would have never forgiven myself had there been a problem and I had said nothing. I am sure Craig will understand my concerns and still check the clearances with the revised bore, stroke and conrod lengths, just to be sure.
Mike
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Hello Doug,
Well thats a relief to hear, so maybe Craig will not have a problem after all.
It was a hard call to make. Do I say nothing and wait to see how things turn out for Craig later, or should I alert him?
I would have never forgiven myself had there been a problem and I had said nothing. I am sure Craig will understand my concerns and still check the clearances with the revised bore, stroke and conrod lengths, just to be sure.
Mike , honestly....you handled it perfectly....thank you.
Dave
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Thanks to everyone who stops by, and thanks for the comments.
Roger- I cut the threads at the lowest speed my lathe will run, 70 RPM.
Mike and others: You guys are really looking out for me, and I have to say that I really appreciate it! :ThumbsUp:
I do believe that I have the clearances covered for the connecting rods interfering with the bottom of the cylinders. I checked it carefully with my CAD design. I’ve supplied a screen capture from my Alibre CAD software of the main engine assembly below. Looks like everything clears to me. I’ll admit that my connecting rods aren’t ‘pretty’, but making them is a long way off and I may be moved to make them look a little more like the full size.
Since I had the design up and was recording I thought I’d go ahead and give a good view of the slipper bearings on the connecting rod ends and how they interface with the slotted disk on the crankshaft throw. It’s going to be a ‘hoot’ to try to make this, but I’m determined to give it a good try.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDRD7ay5pd0
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OH man that's a cool animation!
The rod bearings have always puzzled me.....waiting for the long awaited clarification!!!
Good onya man!
Dave
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Craig- I’ve been following along and just realized that I have failed to compliment you on your outstanding work thus far. Very impressive machining.
-Bob
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Very nice animation. I cant quite wrap my head around rotaries but just as example at about 0:42, it appears the rod is quite close? But hard to tell based on the projection of the cylinder itself.
My (conventional radial engine) rods are much fatter by comparison. The cylinder orientation makes for different clearance on the bottom cylinders vs the uppers which tricked me. I (digitally) chamfered the skirts & the rods a bit to clear. Anyways, rod interference wasn't apparent until I evaluated using section views. Or turn off shading to outline mode to help see what was going on. Then I sheepishly remembered how to set up interference detection so the software pauses & pings if virtual interference occurs. Maybe your app has that capability too?
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Thanks for stopping by.
Dave: The animation comes out of the CAD tool. You can re-orient the assembly in three dimensions to any position you choose; then, assuming you have your constraints right, the individual objects that make up the assembly will move as they would in the completed model. I hid the cam disks and the gearing that drives them in the video I posted up thread. With them visible, the cam disks rotate within the engine as the engine case is rotated. So it is possible to “sort-of” observe the valve events as the engine case rotates. If Alibre had a tangent constraint that would follow a surface I could actually see the valves open and close as the engine case rotates ant that would be AWSOME! Alas. I hope you don’t mind, but I’m saving the explanation of the slipper bearings till I get there in the build.
Bob: thanks for the complement, you are most welcome.
Peter: If I could give you the assembly, you could verify for yourself but, all the connecting rods clear the cylinder bottoms. Below is the best picture I can give you. With the CAD tool, I can re-orient the assembly in many directions to check the clearances. Alibre has an interference tool, but I believe it just checks for static clearances; I don’t believe it will identify dynamic clearance problems but I might be wrong. Maybe someone “out there” will clarify this.
(https://i.postimg.cc/FzkXkZTT/interference-1.jpg)
Craig's engine, being a bit freelance, will be a different situation.
Doug: I'm sure your comment wasn't directed to be an insult, but regardless, you are absolutely correct. When I made the decision to make the cylinder heads separate from the cylinder body, the resulting cascade of required changes made me give up any pretense of having the engine internals closely model the full size. Were I truthful, I should have named the build a “LeRhône replica”. I’m still hoping the external appearance of the model resembles the LeRhône 9C.
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QUOTE: Dave: The animation comes out of the CAD tool. You can re-orient the assembly in three dimensions to any position you choose; then, assuming you have your constraints right, the individual objects that make up the assembly will move as they would in the completed model. I hid the cam disks and the gearing that drives them in the video I posted up thread. With them visible, the cam disks rotate within the engine as the engine case is rotated. So it is possible to “sort-of” observe the valve events as the engine case rotates. If Alibre had a tangent constraint that would follow a surface I could actually see the valves open and close as the engine case rotates ant that would be AWSOME! Alas. I hope you don’t mind, but I’m saving the explanation of the slipper bearings till I get there in the build.QUOTE
Oh trust me I understand....SW alibre, fusion, UG, Autocad, Cadkey, Cadam...and a few I've long since forgotten..yup....35 years of understanding :lolb:
OK I'll wait for the hardcover version
Dave
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Hi Craig. I'm confident you are in a much better position to examine the CAD model features, manipulate views & zoom etc. I was just pointing out some generic things to beware of from my own experience which is a different engine altogether. For example I've seen people rotate the crankshaft assembly to maximum rod angle by eye, then examine a lateral section view mid cylinder bore. This may show clearance between leading edge of rod & liner, but in fact the corners of the rod could be contacting the bore (sketch). Fully circular section rods could be examined his way because the tangents would be coincident. But rectangular rods, especially tapered rods & radiused corners.... now its a maybe yes, maybe no depending on several inter-related variables. Anyways, looks like you have a good handle on all this. Better to solve any issues digitally beforehand. Fascinating engine!
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Wow, neat job on the fins.
Regarding the possible interference, was glad to see the discussion of that, if for no other reason than to see the rod bearing details, another mystery revealed...and to see the helpful advice and banter we've all come to love on this site.
"Were I truthful, I should have named the build a “LeRhône replica”"
Perhaps call it the LeCraigTM instead? :ROFL:
:cheers: :popcorn:
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Thanks for stopping by to see the latest.
Dave: mine is 45 years of understanding, that is with computer coding. I find it amusing when somebody with a high school kid starts telling me what a great coder their kid is.
Peter: I hear ya. Pretty sure I have it covered. (after all this discussion I’m going to need to eat a lot of crow out there in the future if I don’t :embarassed:).
Perhaps call it the LeCraigTM instead? :ROFL:
Ben: I’d laugh with you but your comment is fairly true.
On with the build of the LeCrâig LeRhône.
The first order of business was to make a few jigs to hold the work while I cut the fins. The jig below attaches to the cylinder top.
(https://i.postimg.cc/QxbTwYFG/1.jpg)
This jig below slides into the bore and allows me to turn the cylinder between centers.
(https://i.postimg.cc/mg3YJy76/2.jpg)
Following a photo of the cylinder “jigified”.
(https://i.postimg.cc/gk8tcRv3/3.jpg)
Finally I have the work mounted on the lathe and am cutting the fins with a slitting tool. These fins are only .030 inch thick so I needed to keep my head about me and concentrate on what I was doing. Didn’t need to misalign the tool for the next pass and while entering each cut I kept thinking that the distances were wrong, but you just have to trust your equipment.
(https://i.postimg.cc/LXJvcZ9Y/4.jpg)
Fnially, cylinder 1 completed.
(https://i.postimg.cc/MK5RYpwh/5.jpg)
And a view of how it looks mounted to the engine case.
(https://i.postimg.cc/hj8hP2PH/6.jpg)
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Looking good. Was there a cracked fin on that one from the milling op? I think you had mentioned that earlier. :(
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Hello Craige LeRhone,
Those fins look real nice and well proportioned. :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: Only another eight cylinders to go. :Lol:
The early rotary engines did not have much in the way of fins on the cylinders, or more importantly, on the cylinder heads. They simply whizzed the cylinders around to make thier own breeze. By the time they started building static radials, they had a better understanding of cooling fins and the fins became larger, deeper and more numerous. Later still, they added tin plate shrouds to ensure the cooling air was forced to go between the fins rather than take the easier route around the outside.
Cheers
Mike
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:ThumbsUp:
Nice work Craig!
:popcorn:
Jogn
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Ben: a bit of a divot on the top fin. :( I’m hoping the other eight don’t experience
The same problem.
Thanks for the comment Jogn
Hello Craige LeRhone
:Lol:
Only another eight cylinders to go. :Lol:
No problem Mike, I'll have them knocked out in just another day or two. :ROFL:
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Wonderful :praise2: :praise2: The 3D animated CAD stuff is a little beyond me at the moment, I will learn it one day :thinking: :old:
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This is another build that I'm enjoying and learning from. Great work, Craig! :ThumbsUp:
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That looks Great Craig!... 45 years huh, I'm just a youngin!.
My cylinders have flats on the sides.....parting blades REALLY don't like that so saw it is
Dave
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I had originally written the name as a typical American mashup of the names - the LeChrone...but she may be an old engine, but far to pretty for that epithet. :hellno:
I'll go sit in the corner now. :toilet_claw:
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- the LeChrone...but she may be an old engine, but far to pretty for that epithet. :hellno:
I'll go sit in the corner now. :toilet_claw:
Ha! The LeChrone… just in time for Halloween
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:facepalm2:
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Wait I thought Leckrone was the UW band director? :ROFL: :lolb:
Art
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No, Art, that's Brad McDavid...
https://music.washington.edu/people/brad-mcdavid
;D
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Bent - Art's right too. Leckrone was the UW (University of Wisconsin, Madison) Marching Band Director from 1969-2019.
It's them cheese-heads fault, there's just too many UW's to keep straight. There's 13 different UW's and a total of 26 UW campuses.
Don
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OH man that's a cool animation!
The rod bearings have always puzzled me.....waiting for the long awaited clarification!!!
Good onya man!
Dave
Me too, I can't get my head around this. I'm double-puzzled.. :thinking:
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Hi Craig,
I was looking again at the second half of that animation, seeing more every time I look at it. Am I right that this engine didn't use the one 'master' connection to the central bearing disc like a lot of others did? Looks like the slots/arcs keep things lined up as it goes round rather than the one non-pivoting one I am used to. Very very clever setup - whoever invented that was a mechanical marvel!
Chris
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Hi Chris
There seems to be conflicting information regarding the rods. I thought I had first read where the engine had a ‘master rod’ that attached solidly to the disk where the other eight rods had slippers. In researching further I found many references that led to believe that all nine were slipper rods with none of them a ‘master’. It seems to me that either would work, and the ‘final’ version in my design uses nine slipper rods with none a master and I’ll probably go with that unless someone posts and clears up this mystery, showing that the Le Rhône had a master rod after all.
I have some detail photos of the disk that attaches to the crankshaft and it uses ball bearings between the disk and the crankshaft so obviously, the slipper disk is no meant to rotate with the crankshaft but rather remain in a somewhat stationary orientation with regards to the slipper bearings on the rods.
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Hello Craig LeRhone,
Have a look at this. There may be a job vacancy for you.
Unfortunately you may have left it a bit late to apply. :Lol:
(https://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/mechanics~0.jpg)
Keep up the good work
Mike
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Well Dang Mike, another opportunity missed. :facepalm: Although, at the rate this engine is going together, the Allies might have been woefully short of aircraft engines. ::)
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Don,
Thanks for coming to my defense. Been away doing fun anniversary sorts of things. Only just now found someone mistake the Wisconsin UW for the other UW, the one without Mike Leckrone.
Craig it will be interesting to see how slipper rods work.
Art
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Craig - re your Reply#129. I think you are on the right path with all nine slipper rods going into slots; I seem to remember watching a Youtube vid a while back showing how a Le Rhône was but and I'm pretty sure all nine rods were just slotted in, the slippers had slots built in to overlap adjacent rods and the slippers had a pointy end on one end and a corresponding vee cut out the other.
Nice work so far on this build if I may say so.
Chris
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Craig,
The Modern Aviation Engines books I picked up a few weeks ago describe the Le Rhone Connecting Rod arrangement as follows:
"The connecting rods are provided with "feet" or shoes on the end which fit into grooves lined with bearing metal which are machined into crank discs revolving on ball bearings which are held together so that the connecting rod big ends are sandwiched between them by clamping screws. This construction is a modification of that used on the Anzani six-cylinder radial engine. There are three grooves machined in each crank disc and three connecting rod big ends run in each pair of grooves The detoils of this construction can be readily ascertained by reference to explanatory diagrams at Figs 393 and 394A. Three of the rods which work in the groove nearest the crankpin are provided with short shoes as shown at Fig.394B The short shoes are used on the rods employed in cylinders number 1, 4 and 7. The set of connecting rods that work in the central grooves are provided with medium length shoes and actuate the pistons in cylinders numbers 3, 6 and 9. The three rods that work in the outside grooves have still longer shoes and are employed in cylinders numbers 2, 5 and 8."
Hope this is off some use.
Best Regards,
Colin
Just had a further look in book and Figs 391 and 392 give a very good view of how the connecting rods are connected into the grooves.
There are short paragraphs and drawings on the following topics:
Le Rhone Valve Actuation
Le Rhone Carburetor
Le Rhone Engine Action
The valve timing, cylinder positions, firing order ere detailed in these drawings
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Interesting Colin, but those inlet and exhaust cams are something else, never seen cams like that before, there is obviously an excellent reason why the designer arrived at those profiles but just how escapes me at the minute, other than to accommodate the firing order and the fact the engine rotates!
Chris
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this shows everything clear I think
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=th-GuQ7OMSc
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Oh my, what an incredible movie! That must have taken quite a while to make. I was going to ask about why the cams had 5 sets of lobes, but the movie showed how the cam set turns at a different speed from the crank due to the gear reduction. And the motion on the con rod inner ends is mind boggling....
An amazing build!
:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Chris
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As you say Chris an amazing piece of animation. I cannot begin to think how long that would have taken to research and then produce.
Colin
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That is a remarkable video and an excellent way to visualize how the engine is built and works. A nine-cylinder rotary engine is probably the most challenging project a M. E. can undertake, and brings back fond memories of the Bentley BR2 I built many years ago, and the amazement when the engine first fired up with castor oil flying around.
I will follow this build with great interest.
Mike
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Somebody spent significant time on that animation. I have done a bit of animation in the past, but nothing to compare with that. Magnificent animation and incredible engine design.----Brian
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Between Craig's video of his engine and the one shared by Pieter, I think I finally get how this contraption works. Thanks both! :popcorn:
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Thanks for stopping by. Lots of folks commenting, THANKS, especially to Peter who shared that excellent assembly video of the LeRhône 9C. :ThumbsUp:
Welcome to the latest update from the LeCrâig aero-engine factory :Lol: where we are in the process of making THOUSANDS of cylinder jugs. (Ok- just nine, but when you’re standing at the lathe it Seems like thousands). :embarassed:
And… Mike, I hold you personally responsible for the “nine cylinder” requirement thing. You, being the “round engine” expert here, you should have warned me there were NINE CYLINDERS. >:D
You can get into a nice rhythm with nine of everything.
Ooooops looks like you did, sorrrrrrry. O:-)
Three cylinders done, six to go (though I’m well into number 4). I’m hoping to finish them around the end of November. Below are a few photos of the growing family.
(https://i.postimg.cc/JzCWJbLS/20211020-142622.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/hGP4z98c/20211020-142414.jpg)
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They look amazing - just like the crankcase :praise2:
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Very stately looking family there, Craig! :popcorn: :popcorn:
Just wondering - If I were doing this, I think I'd do more of an assembly line thing and bring all nine (or at least the remaining 8 ) along at the same time - do one step on all of them, then do the next step, etc. Looks like you're doing all the operations for one cylinder to completion, then starting over for the next one.
Kim
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And… Mike, I hold you personally responsible for the “nine cylinder” requirement thing. You, being the “round engine” expert here, you should have warned me there were NINE CYLINDERS. >:D
You can get into a nice rhythm with nine of everything.
Ooooops looks like you did, sorrrrrrry. O:-)
Ye Ye, thats right, blame me :Lol: :Lol:
But I havn't told you yet about the valves and rocker gear; suddenly there are eighteen of everything to make :ROFL: :ROFL:
Better do as Kim sugests and set up a production line, one operation on each part at a time, rather than making each part individually.
I do like the look of your growing family :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Mike
Just to remind you............Real engines are round
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More 'wow'. I need another box of 'wow's for this build...
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Craig-
Beautiful work on the cylinders.
-Bob
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suddenly there are eighteen of everything to make :ROFL: :ROFL:
:facepalm:
Kim & Mike
I thought about cutting the remaining pieces from stock, them doing all the machining needed for one setup for all cylinders before moving on but....
That would be SO MONOTONOUS and the whole idea of this hobby (or any hobby) is to have fun, so I'm performing all the steps to complete each cylinder before moving on to the next to break the monotony up.... some.
the real pain in the a$$ is the boring operation. I drill out to 3/4 inch, then bore to about 10 to 15 thousandths under one inch and finish with a one inch ream I happen to have. The boring seems to take forever. Where the turning removed nice little curls of material, all I get with the boring is powder. I've tried different speeds (70 up to 270 RPM) and different feeds .001 inch per revolution to up to about .005 inch per revolution and still all I get is powder and at most a diameter increase of about .020 inch per pass. I've even tried new inserts on the boring bar.
I would hate to have to bore eight if these things, one after the other. I'd be boring for weeks.
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Craig---You are doing fantastic work. Most of my engines are 1" bore, and I drill them out to 7/8", then bore out to 1" diameter. I used to use a 1" reamer, but found that if the drilled hole is the least bit off, the reamer just follows the drilled hole. Boring trues up the hole and keeps both ends concentric to the o.d.---Brian
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I was going to ask what your plan was in terms of piston rings & (presumably lapping?) the cylinder bores. The animation video makes it appear as 3 ring grooves. Presumably he incorporated that from the reference documentation, but I have no idea if some are dedicated to oil control vs compression like 'fixed cylinder' engines.
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suddenly there are eighteen of everything to make :ROFL: :ROFL:
I thought about cutting the remaining pieces from stock, them doing all the machining needed for one setup for all cylinders before moving on but....
That would be SO MONOTONOUS and the whole idea of this hobby (or any hobby) is to have fun, so I'm performing all the steps to complete each cylinder before moving on to the next to break the monotony up.... some.
That's a great reason! That is absolutely the whole idea! So, do it the way that seems most fun to you. I just wondered if there were some specific reason you were doing it that way and clearly, there is! Sorry if it came off sounding preachy. I was really just curious. And there's often specific reasons for doing something that I don't understand (being a relative newbie). So if I don't ask, I never learn. Thanks for putting up with my questions. :embarassed:
Kim
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... but I have no idea if some are dedicated to oil control vs compression like 'fixed cylinder' engines.
There are three ring grooves and all are compression rings. Generally the rotaries did not have oil control rings. The piston clearances were quite loose, and on any other engine would be considered 'totally worn out'. This was to try and prevent seizures on (typically) thin wall steel cylinders than were prone to a lot of distortion due to poor heat dissipation. Things over time got better with the pressed in cast iron liner of the LeRhône, use of aluminum pistons on the late Clergets, and aluminum cylinders on the Bentleys. The cylinder bores were more likely to stay round. Eventually they started to add basic oil control features to the pistons toward the end of the rotary era. But before that the distortion and clearances were so great they needed three rings (sometimes four) to act as a controlled delay to the phenomenal blow by. The rotaries were pretty much hemorrhaging oil all the time, with oil consumption measured in gallons per hour. At least with the total loss oiling system, and fresh oil being delivered to the crankshaft ball bearings first, oil contamination by combustion byproducts was not a concern.
The assembly video by Pierre Jansen was about half a year in the making as I remember, which did not included modeling; just animation sequences and rendering. I was one of the volunteers proof-viewing the video and there were at least six full length iterations reviewed as well as innumerable ones that did not even make it to external review. Re-rendering a scene of a half a minute could take several days of 'crunching' on a couple of spare computers so it was always upsetting to make several corrections, re-render, and then find some other error had been overlooked. Occasionally fixing a problem inadvertently introduced a new one.
-Doug
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7/8 or 15/16 drill.
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Thanks for stopping by and also- thanks for all the comments!
Brian: You are absolutely correct. Way back when I was in my steep learning curve regarding machining (still occasionally learning things) my mentor told me that if you wanted a straight hole it should be bored, not drilled. When I drill the ¾ in. hole in these cylinders, then follow along with the boring bar, I’ll clear an additional .050 in. in diameter before the boring bar is cutting material all the way around the diameter. Yup- only boring will give you a straight hole.
Peter. I’m planning on using piston rings, two per cylinder. I’ve made rings in the past but making 18 piston rings is something I’m not looking forward to undertaking. I can purchase 1x3/32 rings from Dave Reed at Otto gas engine works (ringspacers.com)
Kim: Yep- we’re doing this because it’s fun. When it stops being fun I’ll find something else to do!
Doug: Once again you are a font of information on the LeRhône. Thanks for contributing.
Kirk: I was looking for a 7/8th drill. Couldn’t find one in the catalogs and websites I frequent.
Mike: I 'could' have chosen to build one of those radials with two cylinder banks (18 cylinders) or even three cylinder banks (27 cylinders) that were built around WWII. I know it’s a long way to travel, but if I EVER mention contemplating doing something so foolish would you please come over here and give me a good bash in the head to hopefully knock some sense into a dull skull? Thanks.
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Wow is right. And hopefully we won't have any Covid shortages of shipments of it...gonna need to restock mine soon too. Great work Craig! :popcorn:
Doug, your comment about rendering of video from CAD models makes me shudder. I've done videos from within Inventor, and done ray-traced renderings of static images for the marketing types...but never both, thank God. The number of iterations to get a single scene to render so that marketing gets what they want can be ridiculous. I'm reaching daylight again here at work (as in, less design and prototype and test on new projects, rinse and repeat ad infinitum), and getting through the honey do list at home, so am hoping to get back in the garage at home soon and finish the several engines I've got halfway on since before.
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Silver and Deming drills. McMaster.
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I'll just drop this link here FWIW. I believe it's an e-book. I have not purchased or subscribed myself so cant speak for quality or value. I just stumbled on it somewhere in my internet travels & saved the link.
https://nanocl.xyz/download.php?q=Um90YXJ5IEFpcmNyYWZ0IEVuZ2luZSBEZXNpZ24g
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Thanks again for stopping by.
Ben: :ThumbsUp:
Kirk: Looks like I just need to know where to look ! :NotWorthy:
Peter: Thanks for the link. This will give me something to do in December while I’m laid-up recovering from my knee surgery. :NotWorthy:
Two more cylinders completed, four more to finish.
(https://i.postimg.cc/1X3h1VFT/1.jpg)
For the last four cylinders I decided to take everyone’s advice and bring the last four along concurrently. This was in part because as I completely finished one, it didn’t seem like much of an accomplishment- with more yet to make from the beginning.
After making a few of these, I’ve refined my procedure to cut back on the wasted and iterative steps; so I thought that as I bring these last four cylinders along I might give you a progress report- through photos.
First I turned the material round so that repeated mounting to the lathe would keep coming back to the same center. Even though I did this I tried to develop a procedure that would minimize the number of times I would need to re-mount a work piece.
(https://i.postimg.cc/WbKRx31W/2.jpg)
Tuning the work piece around in the lathe chuck, I faced the end (notice I didn’t face the other end because even if I did, it would not be a finished surface.
(https://i.postimg.cc/cHdPftFH/3.jpg)
Then center drilled for center location in the future.
(https://i.postimg.cc/mZXKFDCL/4.jpg)
Now I’m turning down the end of the piece. This diameter is to the outside diameter of the ‘short fins’ down at the bottom of the cylinder and the depth is to the edge of the last ‘short fin’ before the diameter swells to the diameter of the ‘deeper fins’ toward the cylinder top.
(https://i.postimg.cc/4xz8wN7h/5.jpg)
The next task was to size the cylinder bottom in preparation for threading.
(https://i.postimg.cc/QtM0XQ6p/6.jpg)
And then cutting the threads. I ground a ‘special’ tool for this because I wanted as thin a shoulder possible against the stop as I could create. The threads are 32 TPI so the actual working part of the tool could be quite small.
(https://i.postimg.cc/XYRrN4Qx/7.jpg)
Then I needed to clear away the material up against the ‘stop’ where I couldn’t cut threads. I did this so the cylinder can thread all the way onto the engine case. A task I still need to perform is to make a ‘custom’ spacer that will fit over the cylinder threads and will take up the space between the cylinder shoulder and the engine case. Each will be custom fit so that when the cylinder snugs up against the engine case, with the spacer sandwiched in between; the sparkplug boss will be aligned correctly. This will also align the cylinder head correctly when attached to the cylinder. These spacers will have a maximum width of 1/32 inch, since that is the depth of a whole thread. I don’t anticipate a problem making these because I can accomplish sizing these to the proper thickness using my surfacing machine.
(https://i.postimg.cc/wv0xNpcC/8.jpg)
Finally a ‘family shot’ of the remaining four cylinders- in the works.
(https://i.postimg.cc/DytvL5Lw/9.jpg)
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Well, you'll certainly have a feeling of accomplishment when you get those four completed! :Lol:
Looking good, Craig! :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
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Ahhh wow those are awesome Craig. Nice work……. :Love:
Don
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Time to get the shovel!!! That's coming along great Craig? You were worried about the fins....how they holding up?
Dave
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Thanks for the comments / complements !
Dave: I’m delighted with the rigidity of the fins. I don’t believe they will be problem. Yes- if I whacked the side of the cylinder with a hammer or chunk of steel they would shatter but under ‘normal’ circumstances I’m thinking they will be ok.
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Lovely work. :popcorn:
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Thanks for your comments and complements. Also, thanks for taking the time to stop by.
Work continued on moving these four remaining cylinder blanks toward completion. The next step was to turn the outside diameter of the large fin area of the cylinder to size.
(https://i.postimg.cc/QMSZqzBW/20211026-090711.jpg)
And then cut the ramp that transitions from the large fin diameter to the small fin diameter.
(https://i.postimg.cc/htsKCv6j/20211026-105935.jpg)
Setting the compound up for the above cut was a bit problematic since my lathe doesn’t have degree indication reference on the back side of the compound. I estimated the ten degree angle using my angle parallels.
(https://i.postimg.cc/3JH7Y2HN/20211026-105941.jpg)
With the ramp cut it was time to turn the work piece around in the chuck and face it to the correct length.
(https://i.postimg.cc/d3jfqk8Z/20211026-125341.jpg)
Then drill a center to use for a center reference when the work piece is mounted in the mill.
(https://i.postimg.cc/TP5HKHV6/20211026-125520.jpg)
And then, finally, turn down the diameter of the top of the cylinder to the size for the spark plug boss.
(https://i.postimg.cc/630VqdmK/20211026-131717.jpg)
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:popcorn:...'make a ‘custom’ spacer that will fit over the cylinder threads' ...
I am a little lost here, :shrug: are these [nominal 1/32"] custom height spacers to compensate for some radial alignment of the cylinder head XX
diameter x 32 TPI - thread & relationship to a port?
Derek
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Derek
Yes. I can’t control how the cylinder will align when it snugs up against the engine case but the cylinder needs to be aligned so the spark plugs, when threaded into their receivers are aligned parallel to the front of the engine case. More importantly, since the cylinder heads attach to the cylinders with four cylinder head bolts, this will allow proper head alignment with respect to the intake pipes and valve pushrod.
in order to facilitate this relationship I need to make spacers that, when the cylinder is properly aligned with respect to the engine case, take up the space between the edge of the cylinder that faces a flat on the engine case and that flat. Since I couldn’t control the start location of the threads on the cylinders, this spacing will be different for each cylinder. The custom made spacer for each cylinder will be sized in thickness so that just as the cylinder tightens up against the spacer, and the spacer against the cylinder flat, the cylinder will be aligned properly.
I see the as a repetitive process where I’ll start with a spacer too thick, and then keep working the thickness down, trial fitting the cylinder to the engine case, until the cylinder aligns properly. Then do likewise with the next cylinder until all nine are aligned properly.
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I understand the described process.
How/what did they do on the full size engine?
Sid
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Not sure how big the thread is, but you can buy laminated shim stock in rings up to 1.5" i.d. from McMaster Carr, might make the process of adjusting the shim height a bit easier? If you can't find the right size, you can purchase sheet stock and cut ring shims from it, or have custom cut shims made (McM offers that).
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How/what did they do on the full size engine?
There was a threaded locking ring; basically a jam nut. The cylinder was screwed in to a depth set with a distance gauge, then turned to the nearest position that would align the cylinder with the manifolds/pushrod/etc. Then the locking ring (already in position) was run down the cylinder base and jammed against the crankcase spigot. The process is shown in the assembly animation video posted earlier in the thread.
-Doug
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Don't know how much material you have to play with but the other alternative is to take metal off the cylinder shoulder. You should be able to work out how many degrees further the cylinder needs to turn so the holes line up and then it's just a case of x/360 x 0.03125". If you play about swapping cylinders to find the best fit you probably won't need more than half a turn eg 15 thou off any one.
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Thanks for stopping by. Also- thanks for the comments / questions.
Sid: Doug answered your question. No need for me to elaborate.
Ben and Jason: Thanks for your suggestions. I will always, respectfully listen to the advice of others. In the past, several of you have kept me from heading down a path that would have ended in a traffic wreck. In this case though, I believe I’ll follow my original plan. I can easily make spacers from some steel stock. The magnetic vice on my surfacing machine will hold them securely in place while their thickness is being reduced. The surfacing machine will accurately remove as little material as ½ of a thousandth of an inch at a time. I should be able to easily ‘fine tune’ the thickness of each individual spacer to the cylinder on which it will be used. Still, thank you for your suggestions, I do appreciate them and you folks often come up with a better solution than the one I’m contemplating.
Work continued today on the remaining four cylinder jugs. In the photo below I’m drilling the top four holes that will allow the cap screws, coming up from below, to attach the cylinder head to the cylinder.
(https://i.postimg.cc/wTGSs4Z9/1.jpg)
Below I’m cutting the relief inside the cylinder to allow the air/fuel mixture to reach the spark plug.
(https://i.postimg.cc/VNjTpf6N/2.jpg)
Below, the Volstro rotary milling head is cutting the top of the cylinder back, leaving the spark plug boss. On the full size I would assume this boss is formed when the cylinder is cast.
(https://i.postimg.cc/B6pzZm29/3.jpg)
The next step was to cut the cylinder fins that abut the spark plug boss and don’t continue completely around the cylinder. The remaining fins I’ll cut on the lathe.
(https://i.postimg.cc/3NbbmWLt/4.jpg)
Drilling and tapping the hole/threads for the spark plug.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Fs76mgR8/5.jpg)
Here I’ve reversed the fixture in the vice and am drilling the holes in which the cap screws that attach the cylinder head will pass. These holes have a larger diameter than the previous holes and allow the cap screws to drop into the hole and stop at the shoulder formed between these holes and the ones I drilled in the first photo of this post.
(https://i.postimg.cc/pdYGksGh/6.jpg)
The cap screws reside deep within the cylinder. Here I’m using an extended drill to complete drilling out the passage to the correct depth.
(https://i.postimg.cc/TwdksnFk/7.jpg)
A family photo of the four remaining cylinders.
(https://i.postimg.cc/pXhs3Wct/8.jpg)
This work is progressing faster than I expected. Rather than finish the cylinders by the end of November, I’m thinking I may actually complete them by the end of October.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Well, yeah, with a surfacing machine why bother with shim stock? Nice work on the cylinders. :popcorn:
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Thanks for stopping by, and thanks for the comments/suggestions.
I’m rolling right along with these cylinders; maybe there is something to be said with time savings in bringing them all along at the same time. :ThumbsUp:
Today was concerned with drilling/boring/reaming the cylinders to their finished diameter.
Below I’m drilling the center out to ¾ inch (my largest drill). I started with a ½ inch, then graduated to this ¾ inch drill.
](https://i.postimg.cc/VkgrHzxY/1.jpg)
Next was the task of boring the cylinder out to a tad (ten thousandths) under the final diameter of 1 inch.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ydjDymT7/2.jpg)
I have a 1 inch ream from a previous project, so I used the ream to finalize the bore diameter and achieve a smooth finish. I might do a little light honing, but the surface of these cylinders looks pretty good.
(https://i.postimg.cc/hvwP2pQR/3.jpg)
The family shot of the four remaining cylinders.
(https://i.postimg.cc/g2ymhYsW/4.jpg)
Tomorrow afternoon I’ll start the single remaining task of cutting the remainder of the cylinder fins. If I have a good day I might finish these cylinders tomorrow!!!
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Moving right along on the cylinders - great stuff!
:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Excellent progress, Craig! :popcorn:
As long as you're having fun, you're doing it right :)
Kim
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Thanks for stopping by and… thanks Chris and Kim for the encouragement.
This afternoon I finished up the remaining items on the four remaining cylinder jugs and with this, the cylinders have been completed.
First was cutting the remaining fins, progressing down the cylinder side. In the photo below I’m well on the way to finishing this cylinder’s fins.
(https://i.postimg.cc/QdjTKmSb/20211029-141141.jpg)
The last step was to cut down the remaining diameter below the lowest fin. This was done by standard turning.
(https://i.postimg.cc/7L6JmLFJ/20211029-141926.jpg)
Below: the engine case with the nine completed cylinders mounted to the case and in position. I have to make the spacers that hold the cylinders in position from rotating yet but I’m in no hurry with them; they can wait till later.
(https://i.postimg.cc/cCqKxBrf/20211029-155607.jpg)
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Looking great!
Not wanting to jump too far ahead but what is your plan on the overall ignition system? Are you miniaturizing something along the lines of the FS engine, or have another plan in that regard? You mentioned spark plugs - what size/type?
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Hi Craig, to have all cylinders at that stage and mounted up is a major milestone.
Well done. It certainly looks like the production method on similar parts was time efficient. It must feel good to have made so much progress.
MJM460
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An excellent family shot :praise2: :praise2:
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Another Milestone reached, and now everybody can see what it's supposed to be (if they have the slightest interest in IC engines) - looks amazing :praise2:
Still following and enjoying your journey :popcorn: :cheers:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Wonderful work, Craig! As Per said, your engine is really starting to look the part with all the cylinders in place! :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
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Peter, MJM, Roger, Per, CNR, Kim; thanks for your kind comments. Yes, glad to have the cylinders behind me.
Peter: Regarding the ignition. I’ve threaded the cylinders for ¼-32 sparkplugs. These are model sparkplugs that are available commercially. I’m planning on using high-tension / breaker ignition. The full size used a magneto.
The full size engines had a firing order (under full power) of cylinders 1-3-5-7-9 and for the second revolution of the engine while the afore mentioned cylinders were in their intake/compression cycles, 2-4-6-8.
It is interesting to note that they also had a ½ power setting of the ignition where cylinder 1 fired, cylinder 3 was skipped, cylinder 5 fired, cylinder 7 was skipped, cylinder 9 fired; and then for the next revolution skipping 2, firing 4, skipping 6, firing 8. Yet a ¼ power setting was available where 1 was fired, 3-7-9 were skipped; 2 was fired and 4-6-8 were skipped. I assume the sequence was repeated as opposed to moving one (or two?) cylinders down for the next two revolutions, but I don’t have any additional information. It seems to me that without staggering the sequence of non-firing cylinders, the non-firing cylinders would load up with raw fuel and flood, but that’s just my thoughts. Maybe centrifugal force would expel the raw unused fuel? Apparently, even at ¼ power the engine still produced too much power to land the airplane, so an additional “blip” switch was incorporated which would cut all ignition. To land, the pilot would toggle the “blip” switch to further reduce power.
On the full size the magneto is mounted to the back of the engine and appears to give a constant pulse at prescribed intervals so the ½ power and ¼ power settings must have been achieved through shorting the ignition at the required tines when otherwise ignition would occur.
Maybe some other folks have more information on this and can enlighten this topic further?
For the model I was thinking I might attempt the ½ power / ¼ power “feature” and I was thinking of doing this with different gearing that would drive a set/sets of breaker points. I’ve “done the math” on this and it appears achievable though I don’t have a design as of yet. All this would probably occur external to the engine on the engine mount on which the engine is mounted.
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Every day I stop by for a look, and I am always impressed. Beautiful work Craig.----Brian
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I visited the Technology museum in Milan, Italy earlier this week. In the Air and Water building, I came across this partial Le Rhone display on one wall. Had not I been aware of this build I'm sure I'd have passed by quickly.
(https://pbase.com/kvom/image/172087627/large.jpg)
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Peter: Regarding the ignition. I’ve threaded the cylinders for ¼-32 sparkplugs. These are model sparkplugs that are available commercially. I’m planning on using high-tension / breaker ignition. The full size used a magneto. The full size engines had a firing order (under full power) of cylinders 1-3-5-7-9 and for the second revolution of the engine while the afore mentioned cylinders were in their exhaust/intake cycles, 2-4-6-8.
It is interesting to note that they also had a ½ power setting....
For the model I was thinking I might attempt the ½ power / ¼ power “feature” and I was thinking of doing this with different gearing that would drive a set/sets of breaker points. I’ve “done the math” on this and it appears achievable though I don’t have a design as of yet. All this would probably occur external to the engine on the engine mount on which the engine is mounted.
That's exactly what I was wondering. Wow, this project sure will be interesting to watch unfold. I know the Bentley BR-2's are a different rotary animal, but I have the Blackmore Bentley BR2 book which I pull from the shelf (and then usually put it back again LOL). If I interpret the (whopping 2 pages dedicated to) ignition system, his breakers were hidden inside a dummy magneto, ran off 12v coil, 2 sparks/rev run at 2.25:1. The Hodgson (Ageless) BR-2 description says: cam driven by spur gears with a 2:1 reduction... two sets of Ford V-8 ignition points to provide dual ignition through two independent automotive ignition coils. Therefore I dont think either builder attempted partial ignition (is that the same as blip?).
Sorry for the topic tangent. Once I saw your sparkplug holes I just had to ask!
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Nice work Craig!
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Thanks for stopping by to see the latest developments. Also, thanks to Brian, Kirk, Peter, and Ben for your comments.
Things are progressing slowly. I was looking for a large ring bearing to support the crankshaft (as shown in the assembly video Peter so kindly gave us a few posts up) but I can’t find one that fits my budget. Looking forward to some necessary future purchases, this engine is already getting a bit pricey, (at least for my budget) to build, and I just can’t justify one of these bearings to make the model more ‘scale’, especially since I’ve already sacrificed a lot of internal scale features. In lieu of the large ring bearing, the current design uses two smaller bearings in the rear engine case to keep the crankshaft in alignment with the engine frame and I’m awaiting these bearings to be delivered before I complete the rear engine case part. I want these bearings to have a good press fit to their housing and therefore I’d prefer having the bearings in hand when I bore this part to receive them.
Though I’m waiting on delivery of the bearings, I can get started on rear the engine case part. Here I have a 5 1/2 inch chunk of aluminum mounted in the lathe and have formed the internal facing work on the part.
(https://i.postimg.cc/2SdqL4fr/20211101-164834.jpg)
After turning the piece around in the lathe I’ve done some cosmetic work and am ready to bore out the center for the bearings. At this point I’m at a standstill till the bearings arrive which should be later today.
(https://i.postimg.cc/QMxpX6KR/20211102-125718.jpg)
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Thanks for stopping by.
Work was completed on the rear to the engine case. Below I’m boring the receiver for the crankshaft bearings. Once I had the bearings in hand, I could bore the part for a good press fit.
(https://i.postimg.cc/QMzZPwfk/20211105-131736.jpg)
Once the part was bored for the bearings it was removed from the lathe and the eighteen holes were drilled which will be used to mount the part to the engine case. Due to the position of the holes, and how they skim the surface of the part I realized that a drill could not perform this function and drill a straight hole. Since the hole is 1/8th inch, sized for a 5-40 threaded rod, I used a 1/8th bottom cutting end mill to perform this operation.
(https://i.postimg.cc/MpKkGq4m/20211105-134925.jpg)
After a few holes were drilled on the reverse side I pressed in the bearings and the part was completed.
(https://i.postimg.cc/XvpTwxnZ/20211105-151154.jpg)
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Nicely done, Craig! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Kim
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:Love:…….I …………..likeeeeeee
:drinking-41:
Don
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Nice work Craig!
Dave
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Looking real good Craig.
-Bob
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Kim, Don, Dave, Bob, and CNR; thanks for your kind complements. Thanks also for those who just silently stop by to see the latest.
I’ve spent the last few days working on the crankshaft.
After smoothing one end of the stock, I’m using my right angle drive to spot the center of the crankshaft and also the center of the throw. I probably could have removed the vice from my mill and had the head room to stand the work piece vertical, but then: you don’t want to miss a chance to play with all your toys, right? :ROFL:
(https://i.postimg.cc/sxrYvPKT/01.jpg)
Next The work piece was mounted and centered in the 4-jaw chuck and I proceeded to drill the hole through the stock. Here I’m using a ¼ inch drill and I’ve plunged to as deep a depth as I could manage.
(https://i.postimg.cc/9FcP2pDM/02.jpg)
Now, turning the work piece around In the lathe and re-centering, I’m drilling a 23/64th inch hole all the way through. The hole, coming in from this side should meet the hole I drilled from the other and that pilot hole should guide the drill and keep it straight in the workpiece; at least that was the theory. It must have worked because I got a pretty straight hole through nearly eight inches of steel. :ThumbsUp: Why 23/64th you might ask? I already had that drill from a previous project. This is the path for fuel/air to enter the crankcase and be distributed to the cylinders. I doubt it’s size is that critical, as long as it is large enough to provide enough volume to feed the engine.
(https://i.postimg.cc/g2JvX2qb/03.jpg)
Next I’m turning a spigot on the end of this work piece. I’ll use it to center the work piece for a milling operation and also control the workpiece as I machine it. It’s diameter isn’t critical.
(https://i.postimg.cc/JhHZxY2T/04.jpg)
Turning the work piece around on the lathe and re-centering; I’m cutting some relief at the throw end of the crankshaft. I’m just doing this so in later operations there isn’t so much of a tendency to rotate the work piece in the chuck jaws as I machine it.
(https://i.postimg.cc/rsM48VFb/05.jpg)
Now, with the workpiece mounted on the mill and using my dividing head; I’m forming the small shoulder of the crankshaft throw. I'm doing this by nibbling around the stock a few degrees at a time between my two target angles.
(https://i.postimg.cc/MKZBNpLf/06.jpg)
With the spigot having performed it’s duty, I’m cutting it off the stock.
(https://i.postimg.cc/rFh4kL6n/07.jpg)
And then milling the stock to its finished length. With the diving head still on the Bridgeport, I’m using my old mill drill (the first mill I acquired) to do this work. It doesn’t get much duty ever since I acquired my Bridgeport, but I did upgrade it with an economy DRO a while back and now it’s quite a nice little mill.
(https://i.postimg.cc/1tcg7kcK/08.jpg)
With the workpiece back on the lathe; I’m turning down the crankshaft shaft to it’s rough diameter. Lots of work before the last photo and this one. Here I’m just trying to remove stock, not hit any particular dimension (other than not getting too thin)
(https://i.postimg.cc/T3LKvLJ1/09.jpg)
Using the same setup, I’m turning this shoulder on the end of the shaft. It will be used to mount the air cleaners and carburetor. I really need it now for a finished diameter I can use to hold in the lathe chuck to complete the sizing of the work piece a bit later in the process.
(https://i.postimg.cc/NM4Mk1BJ/10.jpg)
Now the work piece is back on the mill and in the diving head to complete the large shoulder of the crankshaft throw. Again, I’m just nibbling around a few degrees per pass to get a ‘pretty much’ round surface. A little touch up with the one inch sanding belt when complete and it gives an acceptable finished result.
(https://i.postimg.cc/DwkTmSK8/11.jpg)
Time to remove this last big chunk of stock. There will be a lot of left to right turning to complete the crankshaft.
(https://i.postimg.cc/V66y2MXH/12.jpg)
With that big block of extra stock removed I can now form the outside edge of the crankshaft throw and also a shoulder that presses up against the bearing in the rear of the engine case.
(https://i.postimg.cc/NF93jcJ6/13.jpg)
The outboard end of the crankshaft has a slightly smaller diameter than the inboard end. Here I’m bringing the outboard crankshaft diameter to tolerance.
(https://i.postimg.cc/fbHW3MKp/14.jpg)
A threaded collar screws onto the crankshaft and presses up against the rear of the engine case. When running, all the forces tend to pull this touch point apart but it is needed to prevent the crankshaft from moving forward in the engine when the engine is at rest. Here I’m using a parting tool to give me clearance to start the threads on the shaft.
(https://i.postimg.cc/3NG3bmTQ/15.jpg)
Here I’m cutting the threads.
(https://i.postimg.cc/mg56hq9V/16.jpg)
I need to face a little clearance on the inside face of the crankshaft throw to allow the fuel/air to enter the crankcase un-restricted. With the crankshaft back on the mill and in the dividing head I’m using my right angle drive to perform tis operation.
(https://i.postimg.cc/mZyX7hMP/17.jpg)
The actual crankshaft throw is a separate part that will be silver soldered to this crankshaft. I was contemplating making it an integral part of the crankshaft but the machining would have been very difficult. Here I’m drilling the receiving hole in the crankshaft for it’s placement.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sDnT08Ty/18.jpg)
Lots of work, but this part of the crankshaft is complete.
(https://i.postimg.cc/TPbQ1PfY/19.jpg)
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Nice work Craig. Your photo's and description of the machining process are great.--Brian
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Looking good! What alloy did you select for the crank? What engages on the the threads?
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How do you set the right angle head so it's straight along X axis? I've always wanted one of those "just because".
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Wow, dunno how I missed all these updates...oh yeah, been busy again (3 separate projects coming to fruition simultaneously, one legged man in an a$$ kicking contest and all that). Nice work on the rear housing, that's darn pretty Craig. Following along on the crankshaft without fully understanding, but will probably come clear as you progress. :popcorn:
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Very deep drilling is always scary :paranoia: I'm glad it worked for you :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
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How do you set the right angle head so it's straight along X axis? I've always wanted one of those "just because".
The right angle drive has a machined surface that runs down it’s side. Leaving the right angle drive free to revolve on the column, I merely open my vice, move the quill down till the drive sits between the vice jaws, and the move the y axis of the table till the vice jaw presses up against this machined side.
The it’s a simple matter then to tighten the bolts that grip the drive on the column and, voila, the drive is parallel to the table x axis.
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Following along Craig....lots of hours at work....but I do say that youre doing a fantastic job!!!
Dave
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Brian, Peter, Kirk, Ben, Roger, and Dave, Thanks for your comments. Thanks also to those of you who take the time to just stop by to see the latest progress.
Roger- yes, I was curious to see how well this ‘drill through’ was going to work. I’m pretty sure drilling from the far side to a depth of around 3 inches helped guide the drill for the last few inches so it broke out ‘pretty much’ (within a few thousandths of an inch) where I wanted it to.
With the main part of the crankshaft complete, I still had the throw arm and the front of the crankshaft to address. I didn’t take any photos of my machining these parts; it was pretty much traditional machining.
The front of the crankshaft attaches to the main body with a square shoulder to keep things aligned. I probably, given enough time and patience, could have formed a square hole with a 0.195 inch cross section by drilling and then filing to finish, but I chose to sacrifice one of the wrenches that opens and closes my acetylene tank which has an appropriately sized square hole already punched into it. These parts required silver soldering together, and the photo below is after the parts have been silver soldered and cleaned.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ryQDFSp2/1.jpg)
Below is a view of the assembled crankshaft.
(https://i.postimg.cc/GpmcffkB/2.jpg)
And again, a few views of the assembled crankshaft installed in the engine frame.
(https://i.postimg.cc/6p1S9bk4/3.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/HL9ywFTV/4.jpg)
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Following along, impressive work!
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Fantastic work 8-)
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Wow, Craig!
I've been out for a few updates but you're making great progress! It's neat to see how the crankshaft comes together like that - seeing it from both ends. :popcorn:
Kim
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Thats some rapid progress Craig. Nice work :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
It's about time to make a tempory stand to grab hold of that crankshaft. It will save the rest of the engine from scrapes and scratches.
Mike
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Ah, now I see...I was envisioning a single-piece crank, did not realize it would split like that. :popcorn:
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Great work and excellent process descriptions :popcorn: :popcorn: Terry
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Chris, Bill, Kim, Mike, CNR, Ben, and SCC; thanks for your encouragement and kind comments. Thanks also for those of you who take the time to just stop by to see the latest.
Mike- I’m thinking of a, maybe, 45 degree wood table with a hole drilled in the top for the crankshaft for an assembly stand. I understand that on the full size, most of the assembly was done with the engine vertical.
I’ve procured some bearing bronze for the slipper disks and some 12L14 steel for the connecting rods/slippers; but first I need to make the pistons. I’ve procured some 1 1/8th inch diameter 6061 aluminum for these.
Dave Reed of Otto gas engine works (Ringspacers.com) came through for me and shipped the rings with a promise of payment. Dave and I have done lots of business in the past when I was collecting Lauson engines, so he knew he would get paid. Still, the check sat in the mailbox all day Monday :Mad: (our mail delivery is questionable at times) and I ended up delivering it to the post office so I knew he would get it in a timely fashion.
I was waiting for the rings to be delivered before starting the pistons, since I didn’t know how thick these model rings would be and I needed that dimension to cut the ring depth appropriately. It turns out that they measure to .052 inches in thickness; thicker than I would have guessed; but then I’ve been making Otto & Langen rings for the past few years which are thinner than mice whiskers, so I assume the .052 thickness is appropriate. I’m sure Dave would know.
I’m making each piston on a stub mandrel, and then cutting the finished piston off the mandrel; so there is about 40% waste for every piston I make. I’d never stay in business with that ratio- but I’ll accept it as a modeler.
Here I’ve faced the stock and then I am turning the piston diameter to two thousandths of an inch under the bore diameter of one inch.
(https://i.postimg.cc/nLB45DLs/1.jpg)
The outside of the turning is the bottom of the piston. Here I’m drilling a relief hole to get started forming the piston skirt.
(https://i.postimg.cc/tRwg1mkj/2.jpg)
Following that up by an end mill chucked in my large drill chuck to quickly remove some material.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZqWbK8NR/3.jpg)
Now I’m turning the piston skirt with a boring bar.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Hx1qDX4F/4.jpg)
Moving on to using a slitting tool to form the piston ring groves. I can test fit a ring to the grove and check depth as well as width.
(https://i.postimg.cc/bJRF7Mv2/5.jpg)
With most of the turning work completed, I’m sawing the piston and mandrel off the stock.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Hk7vYjxm/6.jpg)
Here I’ve mounted the piston by the mandrel in a 5C collet and holder and I’m milling the slot to accept the connecting rod.
(https://i.postimg.cc/C1wcsN4M/7.jpg)
Here I’m drilling and then threading the piston to accept the wrist pin keeper set screws.
(https://i.postimg.cc/263ZYLkF/8.jpg)
With the 5C collet holder turned over in the mill vice, I’m locating the end of the piston. The center of the piston on the Y axis will remain unchanged.
(https://i.postimg.cc/mZY97HXk/9.jpg)
Drilling and then reaming the hole for the wrist pin.
(https://i.postimg.cc/VLNN5r23/10.jpg)
Milling some flats so the wrist pin won’t drag on the cylinder wall
(https://i.postimg.cc/HL0m6dfw/11.jpg)
Back on the lathe, I’m parting the piston from the mandrel.
(https://i.postimg.cc/D08t3TYY/12.jpg)
Last step- facing the top of the piston to the correct dimension.
(https://i.postimg.cc/d06X71bx/13.jpg)
Two pistons down, seven to go. I’ve given the rings a ‘trial fit’ on one of the pistons and all was well. I don’t want the rings on the pistons when I make and fit the slippers to the slipper disks. I want to have a good feel for any drag or binding and that would be impossible with rings on the pistons. The rings went on the piston easily; they were a booger to get off.
(https://i.postimg.cc/HWrYgD5g/14.jpg)
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Hello Craig
Agreed, a wooden box with a crankshaft hole on the 45* face and a second one on the top would be a great idea. I built all my Bristol radials with the crankshaft vertical. Oil the wood to prevent corrosion to the steelwork.
Only seven more pistons :stir:
Mike
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:Love:……
:cheers:
Don
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Nice! :popcorn: :ThumbsUp:
1" pistons and rings...hmm, must be nice. Spent the last few days at work assembling and testing a (new design of mine) product of ours with a 32" bore and a matching piston. Teflon ring for sealing (against water). Worked beautifully, I was shocked. :lolb:
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CNR, Mike, Don, Ben; Thanks for your encouragement, complements, and suggestions. (love those suggestions… they’ve kept me out of trouble more than once!). Thanks also to those of you who take the time to just silently stop by to see the latest progress.
Not meaning to offend any persons of American Indian heritage who might stop by; it is a traditional nursery rhyme….
One little, two little, three little Indians pistons,
Four little, five little, six little Indians pistons,
Seven little, eight little, nine little Indians pistons;
Nine pistons all done! :ThumbsUp:
(https://i.postimg.cc/QM1TM42D/20211120-162549.jpg)
Next up will probably be some kind of table as Mike suggested a few posts back to hold this engine while I assemble it. Wouldn’t want to drop it while it’s being handled. :facepalm:
I have knee replacement surgery scheduled for December 7th so I will probably be laid up for a month plus. :rant: I expect to go stark raving mad without any shop time for a month, :insane: so I expect all my MEM friends to make great progress on your projects so I have lots of new posts to entertain me. :happyreader:
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More beauty!
Best of luck on the knee work too! Get plenty of tool catalogs to drool over between posts from other threads here! :cheers:
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Good luck with your knee surgery. I'm supposed to have it, but I'm allergic to all antibiotics. I've almost died two or three times with minor surgeries, so I don't rush off to get anything carved on. I damn near died from major complications to a vasectomy---thought I might lose the family jewels for a while.---Brian
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Nice looking flock of pistons, Craig! :popcorn:
And best of luck with the surgery. That's never a fun thing to look forward to, though you'll be glad it's over a couple of months from now!
Kim
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Good luck with your knee surgery. I'm supposed to have it, but I'm allergic to all antibiotics. I've almost died two or three times with minor surgeries, so I don't rush off to get anything carved on. I damn near died from major complications to a vasectomy---thought I might lose the family jewels for a while.---Brian
At my age Brian, I’m not sure I have much use for the ‘family jewels’ but my knee is far enough away that I don’t think I have much to worry about on that score. :ROFL:
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Craig,
The engine parts are looking fantastic, I am really looking forward to seeing this completed.
Best wishes for the knee surgery. I am interested in how you get on with it, in particular how it affects your time in the workshop and abilities to kneel and work and pick stuff up. I was told 14 years ago I would need two knees inside 10 years. So far they have lasted better than the Doc expected but I am getting more pain and aggravation with them as time goes on, so I guess within a couple of years I will be in the same situation. Slithering into my Caterham 7 might not be too bad, but not sure how I will get out again. Think I might need :help:.
My wife has had both her knees replaced and thinks I will have difficulty getting down on knees and doing jobs on car and ground/low level maintenance on the machines.
Colin
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Nice pistons. Can you elaborate
- are the portions above the rings slightly reduced diameter to help with ring installation or are they same nominal diameter own the barrel?
- your drawing almost looks like a chamfer on the crown edge?
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Hi Peter
The diameter over the full length of the piston is uniform.
The CAD system has a chamfer tool. I got a little carried away with the radius. In reality I just rounded the piston edge a tad to remove any burs. This one of those issues where, when you make a drawing for yourself, you know what you intend and don’t get too particular with specific details. Were I to decide to make these drawings available, I’d need to go through them a fix issues such as this.
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Scooting right along, Craig, looking good! :popcorn:
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Craig,
You're moving right along. That's a lot of pistons! I can hardly keep up and I'm just reading. It must be the holidays or ambition?
Art
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Great job on the pistons :praise2: :praise2: I agree that getting piston rings off again is not an easy task ::) :toilet_claw: :headscratch:
I hope your surgery goes well :) :ThumbsUp:
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Colin, Ben, Art, and Roger; Thanks for your comments and complements. Thanks also for those of you who take the time to just silently stop by.
I don’t want to get in the middle of something and then have a six to eight week hiatus with this knee surgery looming just a few days away. Even with all the Dr. appointments pre-surgery, I found some time to address the slipper disks and have managed to complete them. Next up is the connecting rods with slipper shoes, but that will wait until post-surgery.
The original design was to make the slipper disks in two parts; one with a threaded rod protruding from the side where the second slipper disk would thread on. When I got to actually making the disks, I realized that making two slipper disks, threaded through the center, and a slipper mandrel that attaches the two would be far easier to execute. Everything is made of bronze. My first attempt at a mandrel was to form the 3/8-40 threads with a die. Bronze being bronze, I couldn’t create threads on the disks and the mandrel that would easily thread together using taps and dies. I ended up, re-making the mandrel on the lathe and cutting the 3/8-40 threads on the mandrel entirely with the lathe; forming threads and test fitting again and again until I achieved a snug but assemble-able union of the slipper disks onto the mandrel.
Below I show the two slipper disks with threaded mandrel.
(https://i.postimg.cc/NMX2g1vr/20211202-104646.jpg)
And a view of the slipper disks assembled on the mandrel, then assembled on the crankshaft. It is imperative that the slipper disk assembly rotate freely on the crankshaft and a bit of adjustment was required to accomplish this.
(https://i.postimg.cc/mZXWbKVC/20211202-105909.jpg)
A final view of the crankshaft with slipper disks assembled in the engine case.
(https://i.postimg.cc/VLCG3hhY/20211202-105933.jpg)
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Looking great Craig!
Good luck on your upcoming knee op. :cheers:
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Very nice-looking slipper disks! That's some pretty small work on those and the threading couldn't have been easy, but it looks like you got it licked!
Best of luck with the upcoming surgery. Take it easy, listen to the Doc and recover well!
Kim
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:Love: yep…….
:drinking-41:
Don
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Hmm, this thread is really an education series on rotary engines, and we have a front row seat. Thanks and kudos Craig!
Ugh, knee surgery - been there, done that, and hope to keep what I have away from the vampires surgeons going forward. Hope everything goes as planned. You have a physical therapist lined up for recovery too, I hope?
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Hmm, this thread is really an education series on rotary engines, and we have a front row seat.
If that’s true, then I feel like the school teacher who, the night before, studies the lesson so he can teach it to the class the next day
You have a physical therapist lined up for recovery too, I hope?
Yup, I specifically asked for the cruelest, meanest, most heartless one they had; because I’ve been told that they are the best PTs you can get.
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The slots in the slipper discs look very narrow, how did you cut them?
:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Chris- the slots are 1/16th inch, cut with an end mill on the turntable, to a depth of .130 inch, recursive passes, each increasing .020 inch in depth. (Yea, it took a while). I quickly learned to clean the cutting oil & swarf out of the slot after each pass or suffer breaking end mills.
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"Yup, I specifically asked for the crewlest, meanest, most heartless one they had; because I’ve been told that they are the best PTs you can get."
You got that exactly right. A few years ago I had an achilles tendon resection/ rebuild done, surgery and healing went fine. The PT's I had afterward were as you describe, and I was back in action stronger than ever as a result. They make grown men cry like babies but they are the best kind of angels, and you get better soon if you follow their instructions to the letter. :cheers:
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Craig,
Good to see progress and how the slipper disc's will work. Many moons ago my mother had knee replacement surgery. They had put a pillow under her ankle to stretch tendons & such that she hadn't been able to move in that angle for years. She asked them to remove it cause it hurt. So they added another pillow. So just a word to the wise don't do what my mother did and ask them to remove the pillow. Good luck with the surgery and we'll be thinking of you in the meantime.
Art
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Hi Craig, I am quietly following along. Impressive these slipper discs.
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Slipper disks > slipped disk :ThumbsUp:
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Thanks for all the well wishes regarding the knee replacement surgery. The surgeon did a partial joint replacement (insert a prosthetic at one of the touch points as opposed to all three) so my recovery has been quicker and less painful that a complete joint replacement. I’m two weeks out of surgery and my recovery is well ahead of the curve (so my Physical Therapist says). So much so that I’ve placed attending the Cabin Fever Expo, held in mid-January at Lebanon Pennsylvania, back on the schedule. I’m even planning to exhibit my four Otto & Langen models; a few friends have committed to doing the heavy lifting in moving them in and out of the exhibit hall.
Today, I even managed to get in a little shop time. I’ve been pondering how to make the connecting rods with attached slipper shoes and I’ve come up with a jig that I believe will facilitate my machining of them. Below I give you a view of said jig:
(https://i.postimg.cc/k44J7V6s/20211221-120712.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/mrrkgpK7/20211221-121000.jpg)
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Glad the recovery is going well, must be fun to ease back into the shop again. :ThumbsUp:
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Glad to hear things are going well Craig! :cheers:
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Good to hear that you are on the mend. :ThumbsUp:
Dave
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Great to hear that you are doing well - so is it still 'No pain - No gain' with the therapist ;)
Per
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Chris, CNR, Dave, Per; Thanks for the well wishes. It’s great to be back in the shop again. I wasn’t really expecting to get there till mid-January. They took the staples out of the incision today so I should have more movement now. My Physical therapist, with a gleam in her eye, said she would have a whole new series of
torture exercises for me when sees me next, which will be tomorrow.
Back in the shop for a few hours today. I’ve been keen to try making one of these connecting rods with integrated slipper shoes. Below I’m centering, drilling, and reaming the hole for the wrist pin that will connect this connecting rod to the piston.
(https://i.postimg.cc/WzHkrbZ0/20211221-144654.jpg)
Next I’m thinning down the width of the connecting rod. The full width is the width of the slipper shoe.
(https://i.postimg.cc/SQT8HVPj/20211221-161229.jpg)
Next I’m using my Volstro rotary milling head to form the top of the connecting rod.
(https://i.postimg.cc/7YjzZhwk/20211222-125352.jpg)
Shame, shame; after showing you the jig I made for milling the slipper shoes, I failed to take pictures of how I made the slipper shoe. No problem, I have eight more connecting rod/slipper shoes to make. I’ll get you some photos later.
Below is a photo of the completed connecting rod-slipper shoe, attached to the piston with a wrist pin.
(https://i.postimg.cc/XJNGzycw/20211222-161303.jpg)
Below, a photo of the slipper shoe inserted in the rear half of the slipper disks.
(https://i.postimg.cc/hv6XvZFr/20211222-161317.jpg)
Finally a photo of the slipper shoe and slipper disks mounted on the crankshaft in the engine.
(https://i.postimg.cc/vHx1ky9S/20211222-161550.jpg)
I’m delighted. The crankshaft spins easily with no noticeable drag. Whew! Only eight more to go.
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I'm guessing that there are three rods for each groove, and that the length of each set of 3 rods is different.
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Thanks for stopping by to see the latest.
Kirk: you are correct, three slipper rings with three slipper shoes made to fit each slipper ring. Cylinders 1,4,7 use the inside ring; cylinders 2,5,8 use the middle ring, and cylinders 3,6,9 use the outside ring.
I worked on making another connecting rod and slipper shoe today. This will be for cylinder 4. I took photos along the way so you can see the procedure I used. Below is a photo of a connecting rod with slipper blank inserted in the jig I made a few posts back. This jig allows me to turn the connecting rod over and still maintain the centered orientation of the –in process- slipper shoe.
(https://i.postimg.cc/bwc6WGJm/20211223-130630.jpg)
I spent some time trying to decide if I wanted to make these slipper shoes on the turntable or with my rotary milling head on the mill. The rotary milling head on the mill won out when I realized I could set a stop in the mill vice jaws and repeatedly remove and re-insert the jig, containing the connecting rod & in-process slipper shoe in the vice without losing my set-up.
Below is the setup I using to machine the slipper shoes with the rotary milling head on the mill.
(https://i.postimg.cc/4xWWdWPS/20211223-134424.jpg)
I first cut to full depth, the inside bearing face of the slipper shoe.
(https://i.postimg.cc/RZ7PBMJ4/20211223-133132.jpg)
This was followed by cutting the outside bearing face of one side of the slipper shoe.
(https://i.postimg.cc/PqK2C2M7/20211223-133922.jpg)
By turning the jig over I could cut the other side of the outside bearing face of the slipper shoe.
(https://i.postimg.cc/zB6Mfxzr/20211223-134407.jpg)
I have my mill tied up with the rotary milling head and don’t want to lose the setup. I can ‘try’ the slipper shoe in the slipper rings. As long as I don’t change the setup on the mill I can place the jig containing the connecting rod with slippers back on the mill and make a few adjustments to the rotary milling head to change the profile of the slipper shoes.
This is one of those times I’m thankful I kept my mill-drill when I upgraded to the Bridgeport mill. It’s nice to have a second mill; though I don’t need one often. Below, I’m finishing profiling the slipper shoes at the end of the connecting rod.
(https://i.postimg.cc/pdyqnK1X/20211223-135520.jpg)
A bit more profiling on the mill-drill.
(https://i.postimg.cc/nLsGLpCX/20211223-140621.jpg)
Finally, a photo of the semi-completed connecting rod with slippers. Like the connecting rod & slippers I made up thread for cylinder #1, this connecting rod with slippers slides nicely in the slipper disks. However, when assembling both connecting rod & slippers to the engine frame I have a collision between the slippers. Each is a bit too long. This was actually expected and a little judicious filing to shorten the slippers will correct this problem. The day is waning however and this sounds like a good place to start tomorrow.
(https://i.postimg.cc/bw51WW3p/20211223-153213.jpg)
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Those slipper shoes are intricate things, very impressive work!
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Yes, that is some jewelry making. Bravo. I've never seen a rotary milling attachment, very cool.
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Craig,
Are the slipper rods made out of steel? Great work there! I had never seen a slipper rod so it's good to finally understand exactly how it works. I have to admit that the rods look delicate compared to the rest of the engine.
Art
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Chris, Peter, and Art; thanks for the complements. Thanks also for those of you who take the time to just stop by the see the latest.
Art: the connecting rod & slipper shoes are made of 12L14 steel. Also, I'll agree that the slippers look rather fragile. Were my model preserving a scale bore and stroke there might be cause for worry, but since my stroke is shorter than scale and my bore is less than scale; the cylinder displacement come out to under ½ the volume that would be true scale. I doubt there will be enough power generated to damage them.
Today I completed making the connecting rod & slipper shoe for cylinder 7. This completes the row of slipper shoes for the inner slipper disk slot. After fitting all three slipper shoes to the slipper slot so there would be no collisions between the slipper shoes as the engine rotates, the engine case spins freely. I though you might enjoy seeing a video of this inner ring of slipper shoes running in the slipper disk as the engine rotates. The below video gives a good view of how the slipper shoes 'slip' in the slipper disk as the engine rotates.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7TedFSj7Ns
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Very interesting motion. Was the rows of shoes something that Le Rhone invented or is that common on other brands too?
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Chris, I believe the slipper shoe/disk arrangement was unique to the Le Rhône, though I might be mistaken.
I’ll also add that I only have the rear slipper disk installed on the crankshaft so the motion of the slipper shoes in the slots can be observed. With the other half of the slipper disk installed and the remaining connecting rod/slipper shoes installed, I would anticipate the slipper disk to rotate on the crankshaft and the movement between the slipper shoes and disk slots to be only what is required to allow the connecting rods to remain aligned with the crankshaft throw.
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Wow, Craig! That is just really cool! :popcorn:
Can't wait to see all nine of them in there slippering around. That'll be something!
Kim
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Did you say 'Whee!' while spinning it? ;D
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It was great to see the video of the three rods in the slipper disk and the cylinders going around. Wonderful! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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That's an excellent demonstration of how the slipper big end works :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :wine1: As others have said they do seem quite delicate (but then again I know that I tend to over engineer everything ::) )
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Kim, Kirk, CNR, Roger; thanks for the comments and complements. Thanks also for those who take the time to just stop by to see that latest.
Kim: I plan on making another video once I get all nine connecting rods in place.
Kirk: not Whee, but whoopee when everything went around. :whoohoo:
I have the second tier of connecting rods/slipper shoes fitted to the slipper disk (no photo) and I was hoping to finish the third and final row today but… it was getting late in the day and my new knee had had about all the standing on it it wanted for the day. :stickpoke:
Tomorrow I just need to make the final three wrist pins and fit the remaining three slipper shoes to the slipper disks, so I have high hopes of getting you a video by the days end.
In the meantime, I’ll give you a photo of all the parts awaiting final assembly.
(https://i.postimg.cc/1t5RhxYY/20211230-163055.jpg)
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They all look really great - what a way to end the year, if you manage to make a video of it, all go rund with all pistons in place :cheers:
Per
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Thanks for the complement Per; and also thanks for those just taking the time to stop by.
I fitted the last three slipper shoes to the slipper disks. Everything goes round and round just as it should :cartwheel:
I still have not installed the piston rings yet. I want to verify I have no binding problems with the slipper shoes and the slipper disks and were the rings installed, there would be enough drag I might not notice any binding. Everything seems to move freely, so I'm quite pleased.
As I expected, with all nine slipper shoes installed the slipper disks now remain stationary with respect to the connecting rods and the disks rotate on the crankshaft throw. A video below of the inside disk, and then with both slipper disks assembled.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZzCDVelwXE
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Wow that is really cool what a double take, but that slipper connection looks so delicate for the load.
Cheers Dan
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That is just mesmerizing! Wonderful work, Craig!
Kim
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Quite wonderful to watch! :ThumbsUp:
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Very nice!
Dave
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I'm very excited to watch this build! Its really coming along Craig!!!
Dave
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That's just awesome! :ThumbsUp: :cheers:
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You deserve a happy dance now - both for the accomplishment and New Years Eve :pinkelephant:
Happy New Year :cheers:
Per
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That is definitely “eye candy” Craig. Nicely done.
-Bob
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I always wondered how that all worked. Wonderful workmanship.
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That looks fantastic. But it does rather make ones eyes go a bit funny.
Colin
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Thanks for stopping by to see the latest; also thank you to all the folks who responded to my last post; getting the pistons, connecting rods, slipper shoes, and slipper disk all assembled and working in the engine frame was a ‘milestone’ event in the construction of this engine.
There have been a few comments on how flimsy the slipper shoes appear. I assure you they are plenty strong for the task they need to perform. Even if I had a true model size displacement with this model, I still think they would be plenty strong. I keep thinking of the engine mounts you see on engine stands used for the full size aircraft engines. Lots of what looks like flimsy tubing to support the engine, but they seem to do the job just fine.
Now time to move on to the next phase. Nothing as exciting as the last post I made; here I’m starting on fabrication of the cylinder heads. This will be slow going because there are nine of these to make. Below I’m forming the bottom of the head that protrudes don into the cylinder. This is unique to the model, not the full size.
(https://i.postimg.cc/SNGZT4hg/20220101-170220-1.jpg)
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..."There have been a few comments on how flimsy the slipper shoes appear."
Craig...in model engineering, the smaller the scale, the more flimsy the bits can look, and whilst we do scale components dimensions, one element that does not change and this is the material strength...[shear, compressive or ultimate tensile etc]
If a round pin of Grade 4140 steel in real life has a Tensile strength of 655 MPa, and the scale pin produced from the same Grade material
Then the force required to being pulled apart in tensile strength] must also be reduced 'down' by the scale
I hope this makes sense
Happy New Year
Derek
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Craig
I have been following your Le Rhone build with great interest, as it brings back fond memories of my Bentley BR2 build many years ago. Looking through my files for a drawing I came across some black and white pics of the BR2 one with an exploded view. I thought you might be interested in them.
Mike
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Beautiful work, Craig! Glad to hear the new parts fit...both on your knee and on the motor! :Jester:
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Derek, Mike, Ben; thanks for your interest and posts; thanks also for those of you that just take the time to silently stop by to see the latest.
Mike; you’ve built an extraordinary machine. If mine looks half as good I’ll be satisfied.
This build seems to be progressing at glacial speed. If I were working at the rate I’ve build other projects I’d have it done and would be off on another endeavor. I’m not is a rush, it’s not as if Albert Ball were waiting for me to complete a new engine for his Nieuport. :facepalm2:
Work progressed on the cylinder heads. I’m using collets not especially for accuracy, but with the collets I can cut the finished diameter without fear of having a tool collision with the lathe chauk.
(https://i.postimg.cc/HLnLVLBW/20220102-153109.jpg)
Lots of steps in fabricating the main component for the cylinder head. There will be three additional components that are grafted onto this head so it resembles the casting of the full size.
(https://i.postimg.cc/mrH0XfrN/20220104-162655.jpg)
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Thanks for stopping by and thanks for your comments.
I made a few more of the cylinder head bases today. It occurred to me that some of you might be having problems trying to visualize exactly what I’m trying to accomplish. To help you out I thought I’d supply a bit of background. Firstly, below is a photo of a cylinder head on a full size Le Rhône. This is for a Le Rhône 9J (not 9C) so a few things are backward since the placement of the pushrods are at the rear of the engine case (as opposed to the front with the 9C).
(https://i.postimg.cc/NF0P1HFk/01.jpg)
Below is a rendering of the head I’m building as rendered by my CAD system.
(https://i.postimg.cc/NMywcS7c/02.jpg)
To fill out the background; below is a photo of the exploded parts that will go together to make my cylinder head. Obviously, I’m currently working on the base part. On the full size, the intake and exhaust parts are integrated as part of the cylinder casting.
(https://i.postimg.cc/0211TtzT/03.jpg)
The first step in fabrication of the head base is to drill and tap the holes that will be used to attach this cylinder head to the cylinder. On the full size, the cylinder head and cylinder are integral but I’m making them separate in order to simplify the construction of the engine.
(https://i.postimg.cc/MGvLMRc0/04.jpg)
Next, I’m drilling the holes that will allow thru bolts to attach the intake part of the cylinder head to this cylinder head base. On the full size, this is integral to the cylinder casting.
(https://i.postimg.cc/rsJjYF0F/05.jpg)
I need these thru bolts to be flush to the bottom of the head so that the cylinder dead will seal when attached to the cylinder, so I’m cutting a recess so a cap screw will fit flush to the bottom of the head (where it attaches to the cylinder). I've placed a cap screw into one of these holes to help you understand what I'm trying to accomplish.
(https://i.postimg.cc/G2ShPvzc/06.jpg)
Another thru bolt attaches the part that holds the rocker arm to the top if the cylinder head. I can’t use a drill to cut away this material, so I’m using an end mill.
(https://i.postimg.cc/PJYJtPzT/07.jpg)
Once again, I need to recess the head of the bolt, so I’m cutting a recess.
(https://i.postimg.cc/W3cxBz3M/09.jpg)
A view of the fit of the recessed bolt.
(https://i.postimg.cc/QtBvPzcW/10.jpg)
Now I’ve turned the head base over and am holding it in a 5C collet so I can machine the top of the part.
The rocker shaft support attaches to the head using a bolt threaded through the hole formed as shown in the previous photo. On this top side, I need to cut away the material so the rocker shaft support will fit up against the top of the cylinder head. I need to cut away the material that occupies the area that will be part of the cylinder head fins.
(https://i.postimg.cc/GpYbT9Sf/11.jpg)
Here I’m locating the center of the orifice that will be used to attach the exhaust part. That part will attach to the top of the cylinder head. I’m not cutting the valve guides or valve seats until I assemble the exhaust and intake parts of the cylinder head so I can be assured that everything will be in alignment.
(https://i.postimg.cc/FsRprSYh/12.jpg)
The exhaust part of the head screws into the head base part. Here I’m cutting the threads that will be used for that attachment.
(https://i.postimg.cc/BnWG2J9P/13.jpg)
Time to cut in the fins on the top of the cylinder head. Here I’m cutting in the center relief.
(https://i.postimg.cc/XqL6WC1R/14.jpg)
Starting on the first fin. I’m cutting these with a 1/16th inch diameter end mill to a depth of 3/32 inch. I’m using three passes, cutting a depth of roughly .030 inches per pass, which is around half the diameter of the end mill. Probably can’t push the end mill harder than that.
(https://i.postimg.cc/43cCdMFb/15.jpg)
One side of the head fins complete, starting of the other side
(https://i.postimg.cc/G3QWHvzN/16.jpg)
Just completing this head base.
(https://i.postimg.cc/J4020vsD/17.jpg)
Four cylinder head bases complete, well almost. Once I get the intake and exhaust parts of the head fabricated and attached to these bases I can machine the valve guides and valve seats. Once that is complete I’ll need to cut the two fins on the cylinder head base diameter. Were I to cut these fins now, the head would be too fragile to hold to complete the machining.
(https://i.postimg.cc/q7smWd5Y/18.jpg)
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Craig--I am super impressed. Lovely design and machining.---Brian
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Great post, Craig! :popcorn:
Your explanation and step-by-step really help me see where you're going with this. Very well thought out construction!
Kim
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This is going to be a real beauty when done. Will be watching for the video.
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As others said, that is a very nice presentation of how your cylinders will go together, well thought out.
Also puts me a bit in awe of the machinists back in the day, making the cylinder pots and heads from a single casting...and the pilots that then took these things into the air, all that mass spinning around in front of them! :o
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Very impressive work Craig……. :Love:
:cheers:
Don
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Still following and enjoying :) :) :wine1: If you feel you are working at glacial speed I don't know how I can describe my current progress, tectonic :headscratch: ::)
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Brian, Kim, wagnmkr, Ben, cnr, Don, and Roger; thanks for the complements and responses. Thanks also for those who take the time to just stop by.
Moving on with the build. The next step was to concentrate on the exhaust part of the cylinder head. This is the round part that threads into the head base that I show at the beginning of my previous post.
I started by sizing a piece of cast iron to one inch diameter as a rough starting point.
(https://i.postimg.cc/15GkK7Gw/1.jpg)
With that completed, I formed the top of the part.
(https://i.postimg.cc/4yC06pnW/2.jpg)
Next was to size a portion of the material to the largest outside diameter of the part.
(https://i.postimg.cc/NfknX9tx/3.jpg)
Back when I was a tyke my Mom told me that I should learn something new every day. I can’t say I’ve always done that but today I did learned a new fact; :old: that being: a one inch diameter rod will not pass through a one inch 5C collet. :facepalm2: This resulted in me needing to reduce the size of the stock from one inch to 15/16th of an inch- my next smaller 5C collet; fortunately still over the finished large diameter of .825 inches. :ThumbsUp:
Once that adjustment was made, I was able to place the stock in the 15/16th inch 5C collet and continue. Here I’m drilling some clearance in order to mill out the passages for the exhaust gasses.
(https://i.postimg.cc/rFjhmBGn/4.jpg)
With some clearance holes established, I’m proceeding to mill out the exhaust chambers. Using a 1/8th inch end mill I milled the top side, turned the collet holder over and then milled the other side.
(https://i.postimg.cc/D0BqvTV1/5.jpg)
Then, turning the collet holder over 90 degrees, I again milled out the top and bottom passages.
(https://i.postimg.cc/X7rZGFdR/6.jpg)
Now I’m forming the angular shoulder with the lathe. I might/could have done this first before cutting the exhaust passages, but the end mill might have balked when cutting material away from an angular surface.
(https://i.postimg.cc/hvzSjL6M/7.jpg)
A closer look.
(https://i.postimg.cc/PxNH3bXh/8.jpg)
Time to cut the work piece off the stock.
(https://i.postimg.cc/W121mkkp/9.jpg)
After forming the bottom of the part that threads into the head base I cut the threads. I could have purchased a ½-32 die but I figured :thinking: I could save a little ‘bling’ and cut the threads on the lathe. These are ½-32 threads I’m cutting with my lathe. I ground a ‘special’ thread cutting tool, using a 1/8th inch lathe tool blank. No real science to this; I started with a diameter within the minimum and maximum acceptable range for a ½-32 thread and then kept cutting the threads deeper until I was able to thread the head base onto the piece.
(https://i.postimg.cc/rpHyLZYz/10.jpg)
Since I can’t cut the threads completely up to the shoulder, I’m using a thin parting tool to remove the stock I could not thread.
(https://i.postimg.cc/vHvQmZSJ/11.jpg)
A view of this exhaust part and the head base it threads into.
(https://i.postimg.cc/wvJzYqmb/12.jpg)
Finally a view of the assembled parts. These parts will be permanently assembled; resembling the full size casting. I’ll probably use thread locker during the final assembly. I still need to cut the valve guide and valve seat, but I'll wait to do that until I have the intake part machined and attached so I can do the intake and exhaust guides/seats at the same time.
(https://i.postimg.cc/2jsG24rD/13.jpg)
Only eight more of these little buggers to make.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Great little part, and a great presentation of the process as well. :ThumbsUp:
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Nice process! Those are complex parts for how little they are! Just one of many complex little parts on this engine! :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
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Ah, was wondering how the exhaust got out until you said you hadn't finished the valve port... :???: :headscratch:
Nice work! :popcorn:
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CNR, Ron, Kim, and Ben; thanks for the complements and encouragement. Thanks also for those of you who just stop by to see the latest.
It’s taken a while to get these nine exhaust parts completed. I had somewhat of a setback in that I had taken the remaining eight up to sizing the threaded end when I broke one in the machining process.
(https://i.postimg.cc/G2WkPN9z/20220131-145538.jpg)
This caused me to reflect that cast iron was probably not the best material for this part and that I was liable to shatter a few more in finishing them, or possibly even the stresses while in service might also cause them to shatter. So, I tossed all nine and started afresh with some 11L17 steel I had in inventory. This resulted in a better sturdier part and I’m confident that they should hold up in service. Below is a view of all nine cylinder heads with the exhaust part assembled to them.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Hnbb62ym/20220131-144856.jpg)
Next up are the intake head parts. I had already purchased some cast iron for these parts and due to their shape I believe that cast iron should be an acceptable material from which they can be made.
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Thats coming along great Craig!
Dave
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That was tough, tossing those already completed parts :(
But I'm sure you'll be happy with your decision now that the work is done! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
And they look great!
Kim
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That is unfortunate having to scrap all that work, but you probably made the correct decision; the new parts look great!
11L17, that is an alloy that I don't have any experience with, it does seem to be a good substitute for 12L14 or 1144 if you need it in flat bar.
Dave
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Yeah, probably a wise decision to toss the iron parts, those are some thin sections and the stuff is notoriously brittle - the thought of that piece whirling around at the end of a cylinder at several hundred rpm gives one pause. The new parts look pretty good. :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
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Dave (steamer), Kim, Dave Otto, and Ben; Thanks for your responses. Thanks also for everyone who takes the time to just stop by to see the latest developments.
We’ve has some decent weather here in North Carolina the last few days, so I’ve been taking advantage of it and getting in some shop time. With the exhaust parts to the cylinder heads complete, it was time to address making the intake manifolds. So you can see what I’m trying to accomplish I’ve supplied a image rendering from my CAD software of the part. These are the intake manifolds that attach to the cylinder heads; nine heads so nine intake parts.
(https://i.postimg.cc/s28ftmPw/Intake-Boss.jpg)
I’m making these using cast iron. After appropriately cutting and sizing the stock, I started by drilling the two threaded holes on which the intake tubes (carrying the fuel/air from the crankcase) will attach.
(https://i.postimg.cc/9QrvvhxH/20220201-145836.jpg)
The next task was to mill out the opening to allow fuel and air to pass through this manifold, down past the valve stems, and into the cylinder combustion chamber. I have yet to drill the openings for the valves.
(https://i.postimg.cc/k4nwPNnR/20220202-130018.jpg)
Next was a little cosmetic work to try to make this part resemble the casting on the full size.
(https://i.postimg.cc/hjP85Sr9/20220202-144427.jpg)
Time to locate/drill/tap the holes that I will use to attach these intake manifolds to the cylinder head.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Cxgc4pW4/20220202-153954.jpg)
Making nine of these things instead of just one does manage to eat up the day. I’ll be busy on some other issues but hope to get back to finishing these intake manifolds next week if the weather cooperates.
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Not making much noise here - but still very much enjoying your build :ThumbsUp:
:cheers: :popcorn:
Per
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Great progress. I like the little stop block on your mill vise for putting parts in at repeatable spot, gotta make one of those...
:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Per, CNR, and Chris; thanks for the replies. Thanks also for those who take the time to just stop by.
Work continued on these intake manifolds, maybe better called intake valve chambers.
With the threaded mounting holes drilled and threaded, I could use them to attach the work to a piece of scrap aluminum for holding with the vice and cut the rear concave surface with a ¾ inch end mill. Pretty easy stuff; I just engaged the power down feed on the mill and stood back and watched.
(https://i.postimg.cc/8cTz0SBT/20220206-141151.jpg)
Next I needed to cut a relief on the top of the piece part. This was done with a ¼ inch end mill. Sorry for the fuzzy photo below:
(https://i.postimg.cc/QCkGvKNz/20220206-151548.jpg)
Using my rotary milling head attachment to the vertical mill, I shaped the flanges on the front of the piece.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZY9Ljzsr/20220206-154141.jpg)
One more relief cut that I didn’t photograph and these intake valve chambers were complete.
(https://i.postimg.cc/HkT5qqzv/20220206-170515.jpg)
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looking great.. maybe warmer weather is coming..
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It's coming together now, both your engine and my understanding of it. LOL :popcorn:
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Lots of neat work :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: A multi cylinder engine certainly need patience :) :wine1:
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Tghs, Ben, & Roger; thanks for the comments. Thanks also for everyone who just stops by to see the latest developments.
Tghs: warmer weather for a few days :ThumbsUp:, but it is February. :facepalm:
With the intake and exhaust chambers complete, it was time to permanently mount them to the cylinder head bases. This was done with several 4-40 SHCS and a little epoxy to fill up the spaces and prevent leaks.
My plan at this point is to complete one head and make sure everything fits together as designed. No need to make nine (or eighteen in some cases) of something just to find out later that you have a problem and things need to change- causing you to scrap a lot of work.
So- the first step was to cut the valve guides and seats as shown below.
(https://i.postimg.cc/cCK9GgG8/1.jpg)
Then I turned the part over and cut a thin recess on the top of the intake and exhaust chamber parts to capture the intake and exhaust valve springs.
(https://i.postimg.cc/BZLf0tgg/2.jpg)
Time to make some valves. The intake and exhaust valves are identical. I started by facing and then spot drilling the end of a piece of stainless steel in preparation for turning the valve stem.
(https://i.postimg.cc/XNymPmj1/3.jpg)
Then the valve stem was turned to 3/32 inch diameter.
(https://i.postimg.cc/7ZLNFJ1P/4.jpg)
The next step is forming the part of the valve taper that rests against the valve seat (I guess it has a name?)
(https://i.postimg.cc/brNGZkws/5.jpg)
Closer view of the operation.
(https://i.postimg.cc/qMWRT9yt/6.jpg)
Next, I parted the work off the stock.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sDmkPSD3/7.jpg)
I'm almost too embarrassed to show you this photo... I REALLY need to get a 3-jaw chuck for my Southbend lathe that will grip a diameter smaller than 1/8th inch. So they say- "necessity is the mother of invention" so I'm "Making do" with this setup.
Using a tip that George Britnell showed us (pretty sure it was George a while back), I’m leaving a spigot on the head of the valve to facilitate lapping the valve to the valve seat. (Thanks George, it worked great).
(https://i.postimg.cc/HkKP3tG1/8.jpg)
Once the valves were lapped to the valve seats in the head, I cut off the spigots and below is a view of the finished valves… well, not quite, they still need a tad of work on the top where a keeper will reside.
(https://i.postimg.cc/yN4ykp4x/9.jpg)
A view of a cylinder head with the valves in place.
(https://i.postimg.cc/HL9Xjp9v/10.jpg)
Don’t know how well you can see this. Here is a view, looking into the intake chamber with the intake valve in place. The fuel/air passes into this chamber, and down along the valve stem to enter the combustion chamber.
(https://i.postimg.cc/rFYj56PF/11.jpg)
Even harder to see, the exhaust chamber. Spent gasses pass around the open valve and up along the valve stem to just abruptly exit out at the head. There is no exhaust manifold.
(https://i.postimg.cc/YqqkhF5B/12.jpg)
As I stated up post, I'm going to continue with this head, completing all the operations needed. Once I prove to myself everything works as designed, I'll play "catch-up" with the other eight heads.
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Still watching along with my jaw on the floor, beautiful work. :popcorn:
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Wow! Your heads are really starting to take shape here! Or should I say head in the singular, since you're only working on one now? :Lol:
Regardless, it's looking great!
Kim
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:Love: …. :ThumbsUp:
Don
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Hi Craig, still impressive.
I am following every new posting with big interest.
I do know what it means to build a 4 cylinder engine, but 9 in a circle is a complete other challenge.
But I do really enjoy the journey.
Good luck with the ongoing sample of the first cylinder head.
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Craig just built 4 1-cylinder engines for practice. :Lol:
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Nice!
Dunno for sure, but:
the part of the valve taper that rests against the valve seat (I guess it has a name?)
Maybe poppet is the term you're looking for? Whatever, those valves look pretty good.
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Nice!
Dunno for sure, but:
the part of the valve taper that rests against the valve seat (I guess it has a name?)
Maybe poppet is the term you're looking for? Whatever, those valves look pretty good.
Valve face?
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Chris, Kim, Don, Achim, Kirk, Ben; thanks for your responses and comments. Thanks also for those just stopping by to see the goings-on.
Ben: It's a poppet valve, not sure that is the name of the conical part of the valve.
Chris: Valve Face? Works for me!
Today in the middle of February, I had the shop door open, enjoying the “spring like” weather. :NotWorthy: Certainly better than the “in the 30’s” we had last week. :headscratch: This IS North Carolina; freeze one day, sweat to death the next. :insane:
I concentrated on making the valve rocker support today and, like I can do from time to time, forgot all about photos. :embarassed: To help you discern what was going on I’ll show renderings of the two parts that get soldered together to make the rocker support. Since I’ll be making nine of these things, I also made a jig to hold the two parts together to facilitate getting them in the correct orientation while soldering.
(https://i.postimg.cc/kMkSSVvX/Valve-Rocker-Seat-Support.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/YCXq1ZBf/Valve-Rocker-Seat-Cylinder.jpg)
So with the parts fabricated and soldered together; here are a few views of the part- assembled to the head. It’s really starting to resemble the head on the full size.
(https://i.postimg.cc/B6SgdjVG/20220210-161221.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/sDrp8QQH/20220210-161234.jpg)
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Hi Craig, still impressive.
I am following every new posting with big interest.
I do know what it means to build a 4 cylinder engine, but 9 in a circle is a complete other challenge.
But I do really enjoy the journey.
Good luck with the ongoing sample of the first cylinder head.
Thanks Achim; maybe I've "bitten off more than I can chew".... time will tell. I've only built one multi-cylinder engine and that was the "frisco standard" I build here a while back. Just like me to jump in the deep end of the pool to learn how to swim.
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I enjoying following this build very much, Craig. Especially all the "multi-step" stuff. Lot's of good tips to be picked up! :ThumbsUp:
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Head assy's looking good Craig! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Ahh, it's becoming more clear by the day. Agree, that looks like a cylinder head more than before. Knowing the valve is "monsoupape" already, I won't have to ask you where the other rocker arm goes. :insane:
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Ron, CNR, Ben; thanks for the comments. Thanks also for those of you who take the time to silently stop by.
Ben: I don’t believe this is a monsoupape design. My reading tells me that that design has the intake valve in the piston. This is a traditional valve design with both valves in the head. The valves however are actuated with one push/pull rod.
This post starts with making the bearings for the valve rocker shaft. These are brass sleeves that are installed in the valve rocker support from the previous post. I got a bunch of these brass threaded rods at the scrap yard a while back. They are handy for making small parts. Here I’m reducing the diameter to the OD of the bearing.
(https://i.postimg.cc/htrdbLBM/1.jpg)
Drilling the bearing to accept the rocker shaft. I’m drilling this bearing undersize. Once I install both bearings I’ll run a ream through both to get both bearings "true”.
(https://i.postimg.cc/BQ2HRkrn/2.jpg)
The bearing has a shoulder that I’m cutting in this photo.
(https://i.postimg.cc/YCwZHcjn/3.jpg)
Parting the finished bearing off the stock.
(https://i.postimg.cc/zf2x34X1/4.jpg)
And then facing the large end to the correct dimension.
(https://i.postimg.cc/R0RndMQf/5.jpg)
After making the other bearing for the opposite end, and installing the bearings and reaming them, the rocker support is complete.
(https://i.postimg.cc/9fFyvRf1/6.jpg)
Next to be made was the rocker shaft. Here I’m turning the diameter to .156 inch.
(https://i.postimg.cc/wxmwTWCS/7.jpg)
After cutting the part off then stock. I’ve turned it around in the lathe and am facing the other end.
(https://i.postimg.cc/cJqVhW4s/8.jpg)
This end was then turned down to the diameter of the valve rocker.
(https://i.postimg.cc/SQ5VCrK4/9.jpg)
One last step; cutting a flat so the valve rocker resists turning on the shaft when in use.
(https://i.postimg.cc/7Y3s4zxy/10.jpg)
That was the end of activity yesterday. Today I finished the valve components for cylinder number one which I show here. The penny shows the size of some of these parts. Lots of piddley, little parts that are hard to make because they’re hard to see.
In the center, the valve rocker (under the penny). On either side; the valve, valve spring, spring keeper, and spring keeper retention pin.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZKb39v8m/11.jpg)
Below is a photo of the valve parts assembled to the cylinder head.
(https://i.postimg.cc/4yJKhjhP/12.jpg)
At the end of the day, with the only remaining task being that of cutting two fins on the head, disaster struck. I had the head mounted on the lathe and was using a parting tool to cut the fins, as I did with the fins on the cylinder earlier. Everything was proceeding nicely when the parting tool jammed and jerked the head out of the lathe chuck. When this happens, you don’t escape unscathed and today was not an exception. Things could have been worse; the only damage to the head was having a few pieces of the fins I was cutting torn out.
To ‘fix’ this, I’ll need to make a replacement head and replacement intake and exhaust chambers. I can probably re-use the valves, springs and keepers.
Rather than stop and do this I’m going to continue with the other eight heads. Hopefully, I won’t have any other problems but if I do, I might as well make all the replacement parts at one time.
Plan “B” was to cut the two head fins using my rotary milling head and a slitting saw.
(https://i.postimg.cc/bN4z7KN5/13.jpg)
Finally, a view of the completed head sitting atop a cylinder.
(https://i.postimg.cc/MZfLztwN/14.jpg)
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Ohh Maannn! That's a real bummer, Craig. Still, the assembly sure does look cool.
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Sorry to hear about the mishap Craig. Better days ahead. This is going to be a great engine! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Sorry about the 'lost head' and the 'Blue Words' that followed (I'm sure).
But you have a very impressive result in the last picture :praise2:
Per
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Argh, you are right Craig, I keep using the term incorrectly. Sorry to hear about the damaged fins...but is the damaged fin the one in your photo? It looks ok to me, other than a small area of missing fin...
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I agree with bent, it looks OK to me. Besides, we won't tell anybody about it if you won't.
Maybe you can claim it was battle damage? Which would be entirely true when you thinlk about it for a little while.
Don
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Craig,
Tuck it away, out of sight, in one of the bottom cylinder locations; you have nine positions to chose from. :'(
Mike
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Thanks for the commiseration, but I had a change of heart this morning and am well into a replacement for the ruined head. It should just take another good day to get back to where I was prior to the mishap.
You are right though, I could have claimed’’battle damage’ and I’m sure a lively conversation would have ensued. :Lol:
While building this model I’ve pondered several times as to what kind of damage a machine gun burst from a vintage gun would have caused to this engine, the cylinders were rather thin.
Mike: this is a rotary engine. Where’s the bottom? :shrug: :ROFL:
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Thinking a bit more regarding ‘battle damage’. I remember hearing that many of these WW1 aircraft went down in flames after being attacked.
I would think gunfire might/would cause severe damage to the cylinders. Even without that, If we inspect the Le Rhône 9C engine
(https://i.postimg.cc/QNy23DN2/Le-Rhone-9-C-front-view-6.jpg)
Notice the brass intake pipes at the front of the engine. These carry fuel/air from the crankcase to the individual cylinder heads. They would have to be quite fragile, I would think any rifle/machine gun round would pierce them, and when-if that happens, wouldn’t raw fuel be expelled from the break and saturate the engine? Sounds like a fire to me. Maybe that is why they were moved to the rear of the engine with the Le Rhône 9J 110 HP up grade?
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Do not be too quick to write off the pilot of a rotary engine hit by a bullet. The following exhibit is at the W.O. Bentley Museum in Wroxton, UK and shows an early Bentley BR1 cylinder (note cylinder head thread, omitted from later engines) that took an armor piercing bullet.
-Doug
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A hole thru into the cylinder, with the bullet probably clattering around inside the cylinder caused “a miss and a loss of power”. :lolb:
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I found the piston skirt clearances of a Clerget 9B rotary I disassembled to be very generous, so, maybe not so much of a problem! And with an open exhaust port, all things shall pass...
-Doug
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Craig,
Tuck it away, out of sight, in one of the bottom cylinder locations; you have nine positions to chose from. :'(
Mike
Given that the entire engine rotates, there is no bottom cylinder. But you knew that. ::)
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I keep looking at those brass/copper intake tubes and marvel at the thought of a row of tinkers forming them to those complex shapes in a shed somewhere. Any further thought on a simpler "modern" method yet, Craig?
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Craig,
Tuck it away, out of sight, in one of the bottom cylinder locations; you have nine positions to chose from. :'(
Mike
Given that the entire engine rotates, there is no bottom cylinder. But you knew that. ::)
Oh dear!! how embarrassing :embarassed: :embarassed: You are quite correct, I should have known that!!!!
I blame too many radials and not a single rotary.
Mike
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I keep looking at those brass/copper intake tubes and marvel at the thought of a row of tinkers forming them to those complex shapes in a shed somewhere. Any further thought on a simpler "modern" method yet, Craig?
I was planning on waiting until this was “firmed up” a bit more, but since you asked…
I’ve been looking into 3-D printing these intake tubes. I know nothing about this technology and because of this, I started a thread in the Additive Machining heading of this site, trying to gain a little information.
I’ve stated this before, but it’s worth stating again. This forum (ModelEngineMaker.com) has many people who are willing to lend a hand. Back when I was making my 3rd Generation Otto Langen, Kirk (KVOM) graciously offered a honed cylinder to assist my build. With the 3-D printing of the intake tubes, Dave Otto contacted me through PM and offered his expertise (his business is 3-D printing).
Time has passed and Dave and I have exchanged a few intake pipe designs back and forth and I’ve found his expertise to be been invaluable in moving the possibility of accurately 3-D printing these intake tubes.
Dave had a few of these intake pipes printed for me and though they need a bit more refinement, I’ll give you an early view of where we’re heading.
(https://i.postimg.cc/3JzV5qbx/20220211-154533.jpg)
We’re thinking that with a little metallic copper paint these tubes will closely simulate the tubes on the full size. There will be more on this topic in the future once Dave and I finalize the design, the STL print files, and get the final tubes printed.
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Now THAT is a very cool story!
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Vroom...what damaged fin?
Art
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Are you talking about 3DP plastic to make a mold or some kind of pattern for the tubes? Or 3DP metal like what Shapeways & others offer? I was going to send them my CAD file for my radial induction tube just to see pricing level for interest sake. The thought being something like this might be a good application because mass is low (largely determines price) and could lend itself to complex shapes which would would otherwise be finicky to home shop make. Ultimately I made my own & kind of forgot to pursue. I've read about others using patterns to plate metal nickel? Chemistry is not my strong suite.
**edit, sorry I read your post again, maybe those ARE 3DP metal? **
https://www.shapeways.com/materials/stainless-steel-316l
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Craig
Have you thought about making your intake manifolds from copper? If you made a former from steel for the long tapered part then fold thin copper sheet over the former and silver soldered the join so its at the back as viewed from the front The elbow could be a commercial plumbing part, in the UK you can get 3/8in pipe elbows. I would think it would be more satisfying to have real copper manifolds than 3D printed ones.
Just a thought.
Mike
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How porous are those 3d printed tubes? A coat of paint on both inside and out would likely work pretty well at sealing them, if they are as leaky as I think they'd be. Still, that looks pretty good to me.
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Craig,
You are making a fantastic job of this engine. Sorry to hear about the cylinder head mishap but it sounds as though you will have caught back up very quickly.
Colin
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How porous are those 3d printed tubes? A coat of paint on both inside and out would likely work pretty well at sealing them, if they are as leaky as I think they'd be. Still, that looks pretty good to me.
These parts are printed with Nylon PA12 powder, the parts are solid for the most part. There is some porosity near the slip joint because the material is so thin. This process has been used successfully to print small pressure and vacuum tanks. If anyone is interested just look up HP Multi Jet Fusion 5200 printer.
Craig and I have discussed the porosity and also agreed that a coat or paint either inside or outside would seal up any leaks. If the parts were just a little thicker they would be air tight as printed.
I just want to be clear, I don't actually own a 3d printing business, my day job has several printing technologies that I run as part of my job. I am allowed to run some parts for my self and I reached out to Craig with an offer to print the tubes for him. They looked like a fun little challenge and we are always looking for items to push the limits of the 5200 printer.
Dave
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I had some parts printed with that process at JawsTec, great results. If you used the printed parts on the model, would they hold up to heat from the engine?
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Thanks for all the comments, recommendations, and suggestions; all are welcome. Thanks also for those taking the time to silently stop by to see the latest goings-on.
The intake tubes are a very complex shape. At the engine crankcase they are elliptical in shape, slowly changing to cylindrical at the joint between the bottom and top parts. In addition to this, the entire tube tapers and offsets in both the x and y directions along the "z" length of the tube. The top part of the intake tube reduces from a flange mount on the cylinder head and turns a near 90 degree angle, tapering and angling down to join the bottom part of the tube. The joint that joins the top and bottom tube parts is a sliding joint and must be because the cylinders are threaded into the engine case, and since the cylinder and attached head need oriented at a specific geometry in regard to the pushrod, the length of each intake tube will vary by as much as 1/32 of an inch (the thread depth of the cylinder threads). As you can imagine, these things were a booger to draw with the CAD system.
With respect to the above discussion, and knowing my complete distain for sheet metal work; I’m going to stick with the 3-D printed tubes for now. Dave and I are well into the final phase of development and I believe this path deserves being carried to fruition.
Dave and I have had a discussion regarding the ability of the nylon to hold up with the expected heat and I believe that it will. I needed to take into account how much heat I might expect the engine to produce and in that regard, much depends upon how I plan to exercise the engine.
Assuming I can get the thing to even run (a BIG IF in my book), I can’t see running the engine for more than a minute or two at a time. The cylinders will be whirling around, dissipating a lot of heat. I just don’t see nylon intake tubes as an issue at this point in the build. I can't see running it at a show. When running, it’s going to be flinging oil in all directions, who would want to be near it?, how could I even run it to a show without covering the spectators with oil (they’d LOVE that). The big prop it will spin is a liability with people standing around. It's just an accident waiting to happen were I to run it at a show.
As I do with my other models, I’ll try to get it to run, and run or not it will spend the remainder of its life sitting on the shelf. If it gets to a few shows, it will be a static display.
With regard to the build….
I’ve made a replacement cylinder head, intake, and exhaust parts; then I’ve successfully cut the fins on all nine of the cylinder heads. :cartwheel:
(https://i.postimg.cc/fRgvK1Y9/20220217-144456.jpg)
I’ll be moving on to making the other head parts; then final assembly of all nine of the cylinder heads.
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Beautiful flock of cylinder heads!
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Beautiful flock of cylinder heads!
Thanks Chris; but a mere "flock"? I prefer a "shrewdness" (from apes), or a "congregation" (from alligators), or a "cauldron" (from bats), or a "clowder" (from cats); but surely not a common "flock" :lolb:
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Beautiful flock of cylinder heads!
Thanks Chris; but a mere "flock"? I prefer a "shrewdness" (from apes), or a "congregation" (from alligators), or a "cauldron" (from bats), or a "clowder" (from cats); but surely not a common "flock" :lolb:
All better than a riot of shop elves!
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Beautiful flock of cylinder heads!
Thanks Chris; but a mere "flock"? I prefer a "shrewdness" (from apes), or a "congregation" (from alligators), or a "cauldron" (from bats), or a "clowder" (from cats); but surely not a common "flock" :lolb:
All better than a riot of shop elves!
You got that right! :ROFL:
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wouldn't that be a revolution cylinder heads (at least for a radial engine)
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Circumference of cylinder heads?
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Craig,
Sounds better than a herd of cats!
Art
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A Circus (flying) of Cylinders...
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Very nice work all around! The cylinder heads look great & the intake tubes you & Dave designed look fantastic!
John
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Thanks for the updates, both Dave and Craig, sounds like the issue of intake tubes is well in hand. And agree, PA12 is a good choice for the intended use. Circus of heads certainly sounds better than a murder (of crows)...
:ROFL:
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Lots of discussion regarding naming the
cloister circus herd circumference revolution riot; oh hell, mess of cylinder heads. Anyway, thanks for the interest/comments/friendly banter and thanks for those just taking the time to stop by.
Two days of work and what to me appears to be not much of grandeur to show for it. I’ve been preparing the rocker support posts. I need to bore the ends, and then silver solder the to two parts together as shown in the complete support post at the bottom of the photo you’ve seen before. Still also I need to fabricate the brass bearings and install them in the ends.
Having to make nine of everything sure seems to S…….L……O…….W the forward progress.
(https://i.postimg.cc/G2Yp0LpN/20220219-161857.jpg)
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Watching along, very interesting! Having to eat 9 bowls of popcorn every time is about to make the shop elves explode though...
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Hello Craig,
If and when you offer to take over the build of my Bristol Hercules; you will have fourteen of everything to make.
Having to make nine of everything sure seems to S…….L……O…….W the forward progress
So count your blessings :Jester: :Jester: :Jester:
Mike
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You both need to make models with crawler tracks, so you can make 75 or a 100 of everything... Per side! :LittleDevil:
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Oh...
Never mind! :embarassed:
:cheers:
You both need to make models with crawler tracks, so you can make 75 or a 100 of everything... Per side! :LittleDevil:
Hello Chris,
Ha Ha. I already have, both full size and as a model. :Lol: :Lol: :LittleDevil: :LittleDevil:
(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/Sea_Dog.jpg)
(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/DSCF3608small.JPG)
(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/IMG_4622small.JPG)
Just saying
Mike
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Hello Craig,
If and when you offer to take over the build of my Bristol Hercules; you will have fourteen of everything to make.
Mike
:stickpoke: Don’t hold you breath, waiting for that offer Mike :ROFL:
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You both need to make models with crawler tracks, so you can make 75 or a 100 of everything... Per side! :LittleDevil:
That just might be the impetus to make me seriously consider CNC!
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Thanks for the comments, and thanks for taking the time to stop by and see the latest developments.
Yesterday I finished fabrication of the rocker supports for the valve rockers; then I silver soldered the two parts together. I didn’t post progress then because I was waiting for the thread locker I used to glue the bearings in place to dry so I could ream the bearings to final size once they had been installed in the heads. Below is a photo of the heads with the rocker supports in place.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Zqf4p0FV/1.jpg)
Turning attention to the plethora :o of valves. The first job was to cut the stainless steel rod to uniform length.
(https://i.postimg.cc/7PzrYKcB/2.jpg)
Then form the spigot I’ll use to lap them onto their respective seats. The spigot will then be cut away.
(https://i.postimg.cc/25W7BBDf/3.jpg)
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Wow! You've made stellar progress since I checked in, Craig!
And quite the assembly line of valves you have going! 18 is a LOT of repetition! Are you doing any spares at the same time? Or you'll just do an extra if you need to?
Kim
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Heads looking good. :popcorn:
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Ben and Kim, thanks for your comments. Thanks also for those taking the time to stop by.
Kim: I did make one extra. Good thing, I caught my sleeve on the valve stem while adjusting the cross feed on the lathe and bent it. That one was relegated to the scrap bin but as you will see down post, no other blunders were made. :praise2:
Today was a day of making valves. I didn’t think I’d get them all made, but I stuck with it and by the end of the day I had eighteen valves, ready to lap to their seats. :ThumbsUp:
I changed the procedure in making these so I didn’t need to hold a valve stem in a lathe chucked drill chuck. :embarassed:
Here I have the valve blank mounted on the lathe chuck by the spigot and am just beginning to turn the valve stem to diameter.
(https://i.postimg.cc/8zRTjG45/1.jpg)
Here the valve stem has been turned to size.
(https://i.postimg.cc/V66wGC8r/2.jpg)
With a little pondering I decided upon this setup to form the valve face (thanks Chris). I like this method of making valves because the valve stem and the valve face are all made without removing the stock from the lathe. This should allow the valve face and the valve stem to be aligned and should make lapping the valve to the valve seat easier. Time will tell.
(https://i.postimg.cc/90whVHzc/3.jpg)
A closer view.
(https://i.postimg.cc/t70H4vVW/4.jpg)
By the end of the day, eighteen valves ready to be lapped- which will be number one task for tomorrow.
(https://i.postimg.cc/9XDRz47Q/5.jpg)
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Good progress looks like we are in warp speed here. Very nice work Craig …..l :Love:
:cheers:
Don
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Nice work, the angle cut on the valve face is really very close clearance, not much room to work with the compound in front of the chuck.
Cheers Dan
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I cut my valve faces the same way but swing the compound rest 180 degrees to what you have it. That gives me a ton of room.----Brian
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That does seem like a better setup, having the seat and stem machined without removing from the chuck. :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
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Don, Dan, Brian, Ben; thanks for your comments. Thanks also for those taking the time to stop by.
Brian: Why didn’t I think of that! :facepalm2:
I was thinking today was going to be another long, busy day because I planned to lap all eighteen valves to their seats and my thoughts were that if I accomplished that it would be a productive day. Maybe I’m getting better at making valves and valve seats but all these valves just needed a touch up with a bit of hand lapping with lapping paste to get them to seat well. I spend more time cleaning the lapping paste out of the heads and off the valve shanks than I did lapping the valves.
(https://i.postimg.cc/MHdHN0xM/20220223-151300.jpg)
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More wows. :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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That small thump you just heard was my jaw hitting the floor. Great work! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Seriously nice work. You must be like: 8)
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Chris, CNR, Ben; thanks for the comments. Thanks also for stopping by to see the latest developments.
I’ve been busy, the last few days, making little, hard-to-see-for-me, valve springs, spring keepers, and spring keeper pins. Yesterday I got everything together and today I mated the nine heads to the nine cylinders.
Below, a view of the nine cylinders with attached heads:
(https://i.postimg.cc/sXzjSY1G/20220301-161051.jpg)
A better view of one of the heads. I stopped making gaskets many models ago. I now use Permatex high temperature gasket sealer. It’s the red glop you might see oozing out from between the cylinder head and the cylinder. The trick to cleanup is to let it dry, then just cut off the excess with an Exacto knife. If you try to wipe it off you just smear it around and make it that harder to clean off.
(https://i.postimg.cc/pTPvyP1D/20220301-161605.jpg)
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Quite a nice looking conga line of cylinders!
I used the same red goop sealing the heads on my Holly. Wondered at the time if doing an initial assembly with the goop on one side and wax paper on the other, and not tightening the screws would make for a gasket that can still be disassembled?
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So "just rings missing" and "we have the cylinders installed on the crankcase :praise2:
I can't say that Permatex is a new one for me - using it fist time around Winter 79-80 on my first Four-Stroke Bike.
I really love following this build :ThumbsUp:
Per
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You're making great progress, Craig. Flying right along (to make a bad pun)! Seems very close to being assembled into a recognizable engine?
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Chris, Per, Ron; thanks for your comments.
The next step is assembling the cylinders the the engine case. Per, I have the rings; got them from Dave Reed (ringspacers.com) back when I was making the pistons.
It will take a while to assemble the cylinders to the engine case because I need to make spacers to fit between each cylinder and the case, each with a unique thickness. As the cylinder tightens against the engine case, the rocker arm on the cylinder head must be aligned properly so the valve pushrod can attach to it and the intake tube can attach to the fuel/air intake in the cylinder head.
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I need to make spacers to fit between each cylinder and the case, each with a unique thickness.
The three concentric rings on the slipper ring will change the thickness of the spacer, but what am I missing to make the spacers unique to each cylinder?
Very fascinating build to watch and learn.
Cheers Dan
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I just explored your link for ringspacers.com. Turns out his address in Elkton, MD is less than 5 miles from my old address in North East, MD, in the 'tween towns farm country. Small world.
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but what am I missing to make the spacers unique to each cylinder?
The rotational orientation of the threads is random.
Gene
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Wow. Nice work, yet again. :cheers:
Had forgotten the discussion of cylinder head spacing/clocking. I'm sure you'll get it all dialled in (for me at least) your usual astounding speed. The pushrods are adjustable, or do they need to be trimmed to fit as well? I should go back and look... :popcorn:
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Dan, Ron, Gene, Ben; thanks for your interest. Thanks also for those who just take the time to stop by.
Dan: Gene gave the short answer. I’ll elaborate. Since the cylinders are screwed into the engine case, and since the orientation of the heads atop the cylinders must all be in a particular plane (all intake ports aligned to the intake tubes, all valve rockers aligned to accept connection of the valve rocker arm coming up from the engine case, and all spark plugs aligned in the same plane as engine case rotation; I have no control over the exact height of the cylinder heads from the engine case. The distance could vary as much as the 1/32 inch (the cylinders are threaded at 32 TPI). This was true of the full size also.
Today I again strayed away from a “scale” LeRhône, working more on the LeCrâig :embarassed: version of the engine. The full size uses a locking fixture, threaded onto the cylinder to establish and maintain the cylinder orientation to the cylinder frame. Once the cylinder is threaded into the engine case and aligned properly, the locking fixture is threaded down the cylinder threads until it jams onto the engine case, holding the cylinder from further rotation.
With the model, I’m doing things backwards. I have a locking “nut” that threads up onto the threads on the cylinder which protrude through the engine case. This performs the same function, but from within the engine case.
I thought I would make all these locking ‘nuts’, and get that out of the way, so that when I’m making the shims that will align the cylinders on the engine case, I’ll already have the locking ‘nuts’ ready. I decided to make these from brass to minimize the potential galling during assembly.
The first step was to turn a piece of brass to the required diameter.
(https://i.postimg.cc/jSh1DNn2/1.jpg)
Next, I cut flats on the outside so I have some purchase to tighten them to the cylinder threads when the time comes to do so.
(https://i.postimg.cc/1XpHLhpX/2.jpg)
Nest came boring out the interior of the work piece, preparing to cut the internal threads.
(https://i.postimg.cc/BbsDP8KZ/3.jpg)
Here I’m cutting the 32TPI threads. Once again I used each cylinder to check the fit (don’t have a photo of that).
(https://i.postimg.cc/Qx81XTD0/4.jpg)
Here I’m parting the ‘nut’ off the stock.
(https://i.postimg.cc/xjRNF1mH/5.jpg)
A photo of a cylinder with ‘nut’ in place.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Y9x0Vdvk/6.jpg)
Here I give you a ‘mock up’ of the assembly.
(https://i.postimg.cc/KvjjqrxS/7.jpg)
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Craig....just a few questions..... :facepalm:
1. will you use a thin wall tube type spanner to tighten the 9 x cylinder locknuts?
2. will you finally use some type of high temperature sealant on the 9 x 32 TPI threads after shimming & setting has been achieved?
Following on......Derek
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Craig,
Wow lots of progress. I have been cleaning the shop, hanging shelves, ect...Garage hasn't looked the same since we sold my parents house. looking forward to the seeing the complete mounting of the head/cylinder.
Art
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Amazing. I think of myself as a pretty good machinist (for an engineer). Then I see something like this, and realize I have a long ways to go. Nice work on the locknuts, I bow to you sir. :cheers:
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Derek, Art, Ben; thanks for the comments. Thanks also for those taking the time to just stopping and see the latest.
Derek: It looks like I know what I’m doing doesn’t it? :shrug: But in reality, a lot of the finer points I’m just making up as the project progresses. :Doh: Yes, I’m going to need to figure out how to tighten those brass locking nuts. I’m thinking of maybe making a spanner to reach in… but maybe I can just ooooch them tight with a little judicious nudging with an appropriately placed punch/screwdriver? I’m also going to apply some thread locker- probably the blue stuff- because I might need to remove the cylinders someday. To do that, a complete dis-assembly and cleaning will be required to clean all the surfaces of oil.
Ben: I’ve been building models for nearly thirty years. You have to gain some experience in that amount of time; and over time I’ve discovered the wrong way of doing most things. :headscratch:
The last several days I’ve been busy assembling the cylinders to the engine case and the difficult time consuming task was making the spacers to the correct thickness. I made some as I describe below; but I found out that, when they get to thickness of around .020 inches and below, they start squirming around on the magnetic vice as I tried to work them. I’ll assume that when they got that thin they lacked sufficient mass for the magnetic vice on the surfacing machine to hold them firmly. I was fortunate in that nearly all the spacers I needed were either well over .020 inches in thickness or very thin (under .010 inch). I purchased some shim stock in various thickness and cut the thin ones from the shim stock. Below is the procedure I used for making the thicker spacers.
First I turned a cylinder with the correct ID and OD.
(https://i.postimg.cc/25hKx82m/1.jpg)
Next I parted off a sliver.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Ss4t1Fv9/2.jpg)
Lastly the surfacing machine was used to thin the spacer down to the needed thickness.
(https://i.postimg.cc/C5Q7gWmm/3.jpg)
For all spacers this was trial and error… though after fitting a few I started getting better at estimating the amount of material I needed to remove/add for a correct cylinder fit.
So, after fitting all nine cylinders; I show you the assembled engine to date.
(https://i.postimg.cc/8P7wHzz3/4.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/j5q4Js1M/5.jpg)
Back when I was fitting the connecting rods, pistons without rings, and slipper shoes to the engine case the mechanism turned smoothly. With the piston rings installed on the pistons the mechanism is a very stiff assembly. The drag of eighteen new rings in the cylinders is substantial.
I placed the whole affair on the mill (too big for the lathe) and just let it spin for about an hour, loading the whole mechanism with copious amounts of oil. The stiffness is working out, to a degree, but I have a long way to go before it’s as free as I’d like. It probably won’t really free-up until it runs.
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Phenomenal! I am sure that when it runs those rings will bed in and it will turn beautifully. Superb work.
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Been following along and it is wonderful to see it at this stage. Amazing accomplishment!
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Impressive!
Dave
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Excellent :praise2: :praise2: Alignment of the cylinders looked to be a challenge but you seem to have taken it in your stride :ThumbsUp: :wine1:
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Nice work on the cylinder spacers. I am very familiar with this type of spacer trial and error as the poping pressure of a Sulzer injector is controlled by a spacer and shims. It always took two or three tries at least to get a poping pressure of 360 bar.
Cheers Dan
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Wow! That looks super cool, Craig!
All the cylinders lined up just as they're supposed to be - there was a LOT of work in that :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
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Another fine Milestone reached, with a great result so far :praise2:
I'm really looking forward to first pop - while still wishing the Journey to take longer :cheers:
Per
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Craig,
Lookin' good!
Art
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following along excitedly! Can't wait to get a short vid of it moving about! :stickpoke: 8)
It's looking great! I need to work less!
Dave
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Wow, that was quick! And they look nicely aligned and ready for pushrods and cams...then it's just the endplate, magneto, carb...and whiz bang she's flyin'!
:whoohoo: :DrinkPint:
Ok, maybe some other bits I've forgotten. But still, good work Craig! :popcorn:
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Hope I don’t miss anyone… Stuart, Wagnmkr, Dave Otto, Roger, Dan, Kim, Per, Art, Dave, Ben; thanks ever so much for your comments.
Stuart: Yes, lets both hope the rings bed in.
Per & Ben: LOTS of work to be done yet; I haven’t addressed the parts you mention but also there is the gear train to drive the cam disks, and then the cam disks themselves as well as the cam followers. I’d say the model at this point is about 2/3rds complete
Since the rocker arms in the nine heads have a habit of falling out of the cylinder heads whenever I turn the engine over; I’m going to make the levers that attach to the push/pull rods and the rocker arms so the rocker arms will be held in place on the cylinder heads. To do this, I first need to make the pushrod guides and mount them to the engine case. Once this is done, I can check the alignment of the above mentioned levers and tweak the design a tad if required.
So you can see what I’m attempting to accomplish; below is a rendering from my Alibre CAD software of the part.
(https://i.postimg.cc/y6mys6DN/0.jpg)
The first step was to make a simple jig to hold the part while it was being machined. Here I have a piece of scrap brass (brass- because that’s what I found first in my materials stock) and I’ve faced it, drilled it, and am now tapping it for 1/4-28 threads.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Wz3G5TSm/1.jpg)
With the jig complete, I’ve started on an actual part. I’ve faced a piece of 5/16th brass and am cutting the shoulder to around .245 inches in preparation for threading it.
(https://i.postimg.cc/6QfCwymL/2.jpg)
I’m threading this piece on the lathe (as opposed to using a die) because I want the threads to be as parallel to the shaft as I can make them.
(https://i.postimg.cc/6Qc4gF8M/3.jpg)
Now, time to part the piece off to its finished length.
(https://i.postimg.cc/kM0vd6Jz/4.jpg)
The part needs through drilled to accept the push/pull rod. Here I have the part mounted in the above made jig and I’m center drilling in preparation for through drilling.
(https://i.postimg.cc/y6Z0n1mP/5.jpg)
Through drilling.
(https://i.postimg.cc/RZV6r4H2/6.jpg)
Now reaming. I want the push/pull rod to fit snugly (but not too tightly).
(https://i.postimg.cc/6qXqMXKj/7.jpg)
I’ve removed the part from the Lathe, placed it on the mill, and am using the hex stock to define the hex head to the part as I mill out the flats.
(https://i.postimg.cc/3Nth25xD/8.jpg)
Back on the lathe for the final operation; that of turning the reduced diameter section.
(https://i.postimg.cc/YCG7LPKh/9.jpg)
A photo of the completed part.
(https://i.postimg.cc/gcS1yKKR/10.jpg)
And finally, a photo of the push/pull rod guides mounted to the engine case.
(https://i.postimg.cc/PJg43NJG/11.jpg)
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Thanks for the vote of confidence CNR; thanks also for everyone who takes the time to stop by.
In order to keep the rocker arms from falling out of the heads and getting mixed up or lost, I thought I’d make the rocker levers that actuate the valves through the rocker arms. These levers are pushed/pulled by the push/pull rods.
First I fitted a piece of brass I had handy to one of the valve guides to check the alignment and make a minor adjustment to the length of the rocker lever if required (you'll see it in the last photo); and I did need to change the drawing for the part just a tad so things wouldn’t bind up at the cylinder head.
So you get an idea of the part I’m making; I’ve supplied a rendering of the part from Alibre below:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Pf2NG2Xf/0.jpg)
After sizing a piece of stock; I started by drilling the mount hole and a pilot for the push/pull rod lever end.
(https://i.postimg.cc/k5kLzrZ6/1.jpg)
Next I roughed out one of the major reliefs.
(https://i.postimg.cc/vZ71cM7M/2.jpg)
Using a slitting saw to cut the slot where the push/pull rod attaches.
(https://i.postimg.cc/j2r2sFWC/3.jpg)
Here I’m using a 3/32 end mill to elongate the slot.
(https://i.postimg.cc/tCBqfTzs/4.jpg)
Drilling and tapping for the set screw that secures this piece to the rocker shaft.
(https://i.postimg.cc/C5F0rTBC/5.jpg)
On the full size, this relief probably reduces the weight of the part. I can’t see where, at this scale size it matters but I am building a scale model so the part needs this relief feature.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Xq7McfmQ/6.jpg)
Here I’m using my rotary milling head to round the small end of the part.
(https://i.postimg.cc/c15kbGns/7.jpg)
And then I moved over to the other side of the part and am forming this radius.
(https://i.postimg.cc/HxN0BHPR/8.jpg)
All that’s left to do is finish the radius on the outside, cutting the part from the stock.
(https://i.postimg.cc/hjXZSCFF/9.jpg)
After a little filing/sanding the part is complete.
(https://i.postimg.cc/CxwvZMys/10.jpg)
A view of it fitted to the engine.
(https://i.postimg.cc/bNhgMYvf/11.jpg)
One down, eight more to go. It takes me around an hour and half to make this part so I’ll be at it for a few days, assuming the shop time is available.
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Ah, the slot will have a pin attached to the rocker arm, makes sense (keep the side load on the push pull rod to a minimum). Wasn't clear till the assembled picture how it was going to work, I was imagining some complicated linkage.
:ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
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Great stuff, Craig. Enjoying every post. :cheers:
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That last picture illustrates the accuracy needed on the placement/angle of those rod tubes in the crankcase wall, to get the end to line up with the rocker. All very impressive!
:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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great work!!! I wonder if I'll be able to hear the start up from my house...
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Ben, Ron, Chris, TGHS, CNR; thanks for your replies. Thanks also for those taking the time to stop by.
I’ve started in on the push/pull rods that actuate the valve rockers. These are driven within the engine case by cam rockers that you’ll see in my CAD rendering down post.
I started by cutting a 5 ½ inch length of ¼ inch cold rolled steel. This needs turned down to 5/32 inch diameter for the majority of its length. Here I’m setting up the operation on the lathe.
(https://i.postimg.cc/KjTXbv64/1.jpg)
Here the diameter has been achieved. I used a setup where my last three passes were for an increased depth of around .010 inches. By keeping my lathe tool sharp and using a very slow feed rate I was able to keep the center bowing down to around two thousandths of an inch. This was easily removed by a little filing.
(https://i.postimg.cc/zDg4VvQG/2.jpg)
The one end of the push/pull rod is threaded to 5-40 TPI. Here I’m reducing the diameter to .120 inches in preparation for cutting the threads.
(https://i.postimg.cc/W4dXCfL1/3.jpg)
Cutting the threads.
(https://i.postimg.cc/fWc5G9Fm/4.jpg)
With the lathe work complete I’ve moved to the mill. The other end of the push/pull rod is housed in the engine case and is slotted for a roller. Here I’m using a slitting saw to create the 1/16th inch slot.
(https://i.postimg.cc/5tz8wcWL/5.jpg)
The roller is mounted to a screw. Here I’m using a center to start the hole for the roller bolt. The threads on the bolt are 0-90 threads so I’m just dimpling the piece to give the drill a center in order to start and not just slide off the work piece.
(https://i.postimg.cc/0yMSsgQF/6.jpg)
Thru drilling with a #65 drill (.035 inch diameter).
(https://i.postimg.cc/NGCLfNWc/7.jpg)
Now drilling out the top half of the workpiece for clearance.
(https://i.postimg.cc/WbJppsGG/8.jpg)
A little finish profiling.
(https://i.postimg.cc/QMShYCD3/9.jpg)
Tapping with an 0-90 tap. I found the easiest way to do this was to just mount the tap in a tap handle and then hold the tap handle in one hand and the work piece in the other and complete the tapping. These are tiny little taps so I wanted lots of manual feedback regarding the stress I was placing on the tap.
(https://i.postimg.cc/7PJbh1DJ/10.jpg)
A photo of the push pull rod, the roller, and the 0-90 mount screw. The roller is a ball bearing. OD=.156 inches, ID=.047 inches, width=.062 inches. I found these at BOCA bearings, I’ll use 27 of these for the entire engine project.
(https://i.postimg.cc/g0BkkjTK/11.jpg)
A photo of the assembled parts.
(https://i.postimg.cc/XJC3j8FV/12.jpg)
So you can get an idea of how this all fits together, below is a rendering of the inside of the engine case from my Alibre CAD system. The blue arrow points to the push/pull rod. You will notice it rides in a cam rocker that rocks back and forth, following the cam disks. A few parts have been hidden to simplify the image.
(https://i.postimg.cc/gJ8FF0Fj/13.jpg)
Finally, a view of three of the push/pull rods as installed in the engine case.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Cxz2pKb0/14.jpg)
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Very nice push rods! Love the little bearing in the end :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
So, you only need 9 of these? One per cylinder? Is that correct?
Kim
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27 in all Kim,I also plan on using them for the cam followers.
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Yikes! 27! That's starting to be a really big number! :o
Kim
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I hear Craig singing to himself:
"27 pushrods of steel on the wall... take one down, machine it around...26 pushrods of steel on the wall..."
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Only 9 pushrods on the wall...27 bearings (two on the rocker arm joint, one at the engine cam end, per rod). Craig, that is pretty slick work! I assume there is a spring pushing the rods down on the cam that is not shown (yet)?
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I hear Craig singing to himself:
"27 pushrods of steel on the wall... take one down, machine it around...26 pushrods of steel on the wall..."
Only nine, but it seems that way when you’re making them!
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Only 9 pushrods on the wall...27 bearings (two on the rocker arm joint, one at the engine cam end, per rod). Craig, that is pretty slick work! I assume there is a spring pushing the rods down on the cam that is not shown (yet)?
Actually, the push rods are push/pull rods and the bearing at the end of the push/pull rod is captured in a slot as in the swing link you would find in Stephenson valve gear on a steam engine.
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Push/Pull rods?? Does that mean they had to adjust the valve clearance in both directions?
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Push/Pull rods?? Does that mean they had to adjust the valve clearance in both directions?
I would assume so.
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Thanks for your interest, and thanks for stopping by to see the latest developments.
The next part to be made was the ‘cam rocker attach ring’. This ring mounts to the front if the engine case and is the vehicle on which the cam rockers are mounted. So you get an idea of what I’m trying to make I again give you a rendering of the part from my CAD system below:
(https://i.postimg.cc/43XBLPBC/0.jpg)
The first task was to drill and drill/ream a plethora of holes. These holes are used to mount the ring to the engine case and also as a mount point for the cam rockers.
(https://i.postimg.cc/8kLwSx98/1.jpg)
I started forming the inside surface by establishing the end radiuses of the lobes for the cam rocker mounts. With the holes overlapping I couldn’t drill them but used an end mill instead. I did drill a pilot hole to help the end mill, even though I was using tooling designed to center cut.
(https://i.postimg.cc/VkZWgwrt/2.jpg)
Below, I’m using my rotary milling head to form the cam rocker mount lobes.
(https://i.postimg.cc/DwN1scHd/3.jpg)
Below the rotary milling head is re-positioned to finish the interior surface.
(https://i.postimg.cc/hvKmgZQg/4.jpg)
Again, using the rotary milling head to form the relief on one side of the part.
(https://i.postimg.cc/wvQtW5fr/5.jpg)
I’ve now mounted the part on the lathe to turn the outside surface. I’m using one of the jigs I made when I machined the engine case to hold the part.
(https://i.postimg.cc/j2CszyGP/6.jpg)
A view of the part mounted to the engine case.
(https://i.postimg.cc/W3YVbhh3/7.jpg)
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Hmm. Now I'm wondering where you mount the cam ring(s)...all in good time I suppose.
That was some neat machining with the rotary table...every time I use one I get nervous...good work there Craig!
:popcorn: :ThumbsUp:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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That rotary head is pretty amazing. I'm sure I really understand it though. So, the rotary head allows the head to move in an arc or a circle? Seems like a complex mechanism! Moving the head rather than the part!
Kim
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Ben, CNR, Kim; thanks for your comments and responses, thanks also for those taking the time to stop by and see the progress.
Ben: Maybe your question regarding the cam rings will be somewhat clearer with this post. I’ll explain below.
Kim: Yes, the rotary milling head carries the motion of the vertical spindle on the mill out to an arc, the radius of which can be set. As the handle is turned, the head sweeps the arc and with tooling installed on the rotary milling head spindle at the outward point of the arc, the milling head cuts curves/arcs around the spindle of the milling machine.
Next was the task of making one of the more challenging parts to this engine; I remember designing this part and thinking “Am I really going to be able to make one of these?”. There was no real choice as I couldn’t see an alternative.
In true LeCrâig fashion I’m again departing from the “innards” of the LeRhône. Rather than fit a ring gear to drive the cam disks, I’m using spur gearing; therefore I need a cage on which to mount the gear train. The rear of the cage is formed by this part I’m calling the “rear gear baffle”. It will also contain a bearing which will stabilize the rear of the front crankshaft.
Ben: The front crankshaft (an extension in front of the slipper disks) will also perform double duty as a mandrel for the hollow cam shaft on which the cam disks will rotate.
This part attaches to the engine case, and is carried around with the cylinders as the whole engine spins.
Below is a rendering from Alibre of the part:
(https://i.postimg.cc/c6GL1y4v/0.jpg)
The first step was to mill a piece of steel down to the appropriate thickness, then drill all the holes. Might as well get this out of the way while the piece is securely mounted in the mill vice.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Jhz4zQm5/1.jpg)
The next task was to mount the piece on the turntable and just remove lots of unwanted stock.
(https://i.postimg.cc/mgbTmScW/2.jpg)
I’m not showing all the steps to make this thing, there would be dozens of photos. I’ll just give you a “flavor” of the work as it progressed. Here I have milled out the three “tabs” that will be used to mount the part to the engine. There are receiving bosses machined in the engine case on which these tabs attach. This part would have been simpler to make if I could attach this it to the back of the bosses on the engine case; but there is no way to do this short of disassembling the rear of the engine which would affect the slipper assembly.
(https://i.postimg.cc/V64qbgbs/3.jpg)
Next I cut slots that define the outside edges of the part. I’m trying to do most of the work on this part from the front side because it will be difficult to hold it securely once I turn it over. When I turn the part over and mill 1/8th inch off most of the back, the remaining material in the slots will be milled away and I’ll be left with a proper edge definition.
(https://i.postimg.cc/zBdhff9V/4.jpg)
Here I’ve turned the part over and I’m defining the limits of the bosses that are on this side of the part.
(https://i.postimg.cc/XqmywzNW/5.jpg)
After cleaning all the remaining material from around the above bosses, and after a little clean up, I give a few photos of the completed part.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sX2Bbrvy/6.jpg)
Yea, I could have spent some hours filing and sanding the tool marks off this side too; but the part is hidden in the engine.
(https://i.postimg.cc/HWRJvFHD/7.jpg)
The part mounted in the engine case.
(https://i.postimg.cc/8zBj55vN/8.jpg)
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This is just phenomenal.
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Wow, Craig! That is quite a piece of carving work you did there! :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
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Your gear cage looks like you're making a watch, Nicely done! :ThumbsUp:
Eric
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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As Lord Hives of Rolls Royce said to Frank Whittle when they took over the jet engine development. "We will soon design out the 'simple' of your engine and then produce some real power". Looks like you are doing the same on the LeCraig
Nice work and quick work
Cheers
Mike
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
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Still following and enjoying :) :) :ThumbsUp: :wine1:
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The light is somewhat clearer...I have to keep remembering which part of the engine is stationary...
That bracket is seriously complex, a feat of machining I'm not yet up to! :popcorn: :ThumbsUp:
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Stuart, Kim, Eric, CNR, Mike, Rick, Roger, and Ben; thanks for the replies and complements. Thanks also for those who just take the time to silently stop by and see the latest’s going-on.
My plan, from my last post, was to continue with the front part of the crankshaft but when I checked, I realized I was missing the involute gear cutter I needed to complete the front crankshaft. I need to order that cutter, so while I’m waiting I went ahead and stated making the cam valve rockers. These gizmos have rollers that ride the cam disks and pivot on the cam rocker ring I made a while back. The push/pull rods attach to them and drive the valve rockers on the cylinder heads.
Again, so you can see what I’m attempting to make, below I give you the CAD rendering from Alibre.
(https://i.postimg.cc/FK6X4KQn/0.jpg)
Starting out, I sized a piece of steel, then drilled and tapped a few of the required holes. In the photo below, I’ve just finished drilling the holes for the shafts on which the rollers that ride the cam disks mount. These are drilled with a #60 drill and are .040 inches in diameter.
(https://i.postimg.cc/vBnkwLhc/1.jpg)
I’m beginning to profile the piece, here cutting some of the major reliefs.
(https://i.postimg.cc/brH5syKP/2.jpg)
I need to cut this concave relief for clearance when the piece mounts to the cam rocker ring. The diameter is .438 inches and had I realized that I needed this I would have acquired an end mill to plunge cut it. This part went under a last minute re-design when I realized I had a collision with the cam disk lobes and needed to make a last minute revision. The boring bar can do the job however.
(https://i.postimg.cc/kg5Hgdwr/3.jpg)
Having turned the piece over and held it firmly in the mill vice. I’ve used the parallels to give me a stand-off so that I can drill through without drilling into my vice. Here I’m drilling the two extreme end points of the arc that captures and guides the roller on the push/pull rod end.
(https://i.postimg.cc/GtQMbMyh/4.jpg)
Time to cut all the required arcs. I’m using my rotary milling head to cut these. This cut defines the bottom of the part.
(https://i.postimg.cc/dtV68jCr/5.jpg)
Now I’m cutting the arc between the two drilled end-points two photos up.
(https://i.postimg.cc/8cKhyxvW/6.jpg)
Here I’m partially profiling the top of the piece.
(https://i.postimg.cc/6QM5Gwxd/7.jpg)
Here I’m finishing the top profile.
(https://i.postimg.cc/6qvv0T9s/8.jpg)
The last step with the rotary milling head: cutting the end of the push/pull rod arc.
(https://i.postimg.cc/SNtsgCZw/9.jpg)
Back to standard milling: Here I’ve relocated the piece in the mill vice and am forming the front of the piece.
(https://i.postimg.cc/MZ3qwxyB/10.jpg)
Turning the piece around, I’m forming the back of the part.
(https://i.postimg.cc/fRmNY917/11.jpg)
One last milling step: I’m cutting a slot where the cam lobes on the cam disks will have clearance as they pass by the part.
(https://i.postimg.cc/G27wbJsR/12.jpg)
With the cam rocker finished, it’s time for assembly to the engine. Below: all the necessary parts. The ball bearing in the arc slot is 5/32nd inch outside diameter. The inside diameter is 3/64th inch the screws have 0-90 threads. The other two ball bearings have the same ID and OD, but are a bit wider. These are the rollers that ride on the cam disks.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Z5tRk4Sc/125.jpg)
A view of the assembled parts.
(https://i.postimg.cc/XqmRCj8D/13.jpg)
A view of the cam rocker assembled to the cam rocker ring in the engine case.
(https://i.postimg.cc/59rdGgVq/14.jpg)
And a view of the push/pull rod attached to a valve rocker.
(https://i.postimg.cc/25rPvXQm/15.jpg)
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Boy, that's some intricate work! Well done,Craig. Your work is an inspiration. :cheers:
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Super impressed reading through this post, then at the end saw that its so much smaller than I thought, wow. How many of them are needed?
:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Thanks Ron and Chris.
Chris: one for each cylinder. If I have a really productive day, and can spend most of the day in the shop; I can just about make one of these,
.
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Wow, Craig, that's a complex little piece! :o :popcorn:
Kim
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Oh man, they are tiny :o stunning work :cheers:
Per
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For the next 8, why not make all at the same time repeating each op in sequence? With vise stops you avoid edge finding and tool changes.
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Wow. Tiny precision parts like a grandfather clock. :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
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That's some complicated bits for the valve gear ::) :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :wine1:
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Hi Craig. The current issue of the EAA magazine Sport Pilot has an article about a guy with a replica Fokker DR1. When he got it, it had a common Lycoming flat-four engine, but he converted it to an 80HP Le Rhone 9C. Then he upgraded again to a 120 HP 9Jb. It includes some interesting operational comments. If you don't have access to a copy let me know, I'd be happy to mail you mine if you're interested.
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Thanks for stopping by to see the latest. Thanks also for all those who have commented and provided encouragement.
It’s been a slog, making the cam rockers and fitting them and the push/pull rods to the valve rockers atop the cylinders. I ended up following Kirk’s suggestion and making the last few in-mass. I still need to make a pin to attach the pushrods to the valve rockers, the 2-56 bolt you use in the photos will not do, but it’s ok for fitting purposes.
Dave sent me the remaining intake tubes and though I haven’t painted them, I couldn’t resist placing them on the engine before taking these photos. Thanks again Dave.
I’m rushing up on my next knee replacement surgery, scheduled for early May. This will probably put me out of commission (shop wise) for a few weeks. If it goes as well as the other knee I had done in December it should be smooth sailing. We’ll see.
I hate to get into something complicated till after the surgery so I’ll probably address a few odds and ends till post op.
A few photos of the model to date below:
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZnGyJ05X/1.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/RZbnXPcg/2.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/qRcsbsBg/3.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/FRGfkDsb/4.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/JhLtT9sc/5.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/50jJp3SS/6.jpg)
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Mind boggled.... and there is more to come! Wow.
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That is super cool looking, Craig! :popcorn: :popcorn:
So, you'll have to remind me - how are the intake tubes made? Were they printed?
Good luck with your upcoming surgery! It's never much fun to look forward to something like that. It'll be better when you're on the other side!.
Kim
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That is simply stunning. I'm speechless.
Best of luck with the knee!
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Craig--Great work, as we have come to expect from you. I have just found out in the past three weeks that I must have both knees replaced. This does not impress me much, and I think the waiting list for knee surgery is about a year.---Brian
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Looking great Craig! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Craig,
Cannot wait to see your amazing work burst into life. You have done a phenomenal job. Making 9 of those little cam follower assemblies does not bear thinking about.
Colin
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Hi Craig, absolutely amazing work. After checking in on each post, it is great to see it all coming together.
And best wishes for the coming surgery. It will be good to have it over with.
MJM460
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I can only echo what the others have said, Craig. Fantastic work, it really sets an example to aspire to. Take it easy and recover well.
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Wow, that looks great! No cams yet or am I missing something? Do you think painting of the tubes is necessary (i.e. to get a better seal or smoother flow passages)? Looks pretty good the way it is, but I can also understand wanting to paint them a copper color to look more like the original motors. Regardless, that is impressive work so far.
:popcorn: :ThumbsUp: :cheers:
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Splendid :praise2: :praise2: :wine1: The conrods on these engines always look spindly to me but I know they were designed for minimum weight :)
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Thanks to everyone who responded, your encouragement is appreciated.
Kim: the intake tubes are 3D printed in nylon. I plan to paint them a copper color to simulate the original tubes and also to seal them.
Ben: the cam disks and the gearing to drive them are next… stay tuned.
Brian: sorry to hear you need new knees also. The surgeon plans a partial replacement on my right knee as he did on the left last year. The recovery is quicker, I’m told, than a total knee replacement.
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Craig,
Good job on all the teeny cam rockers. I must admit to silently following along, good progress. I hope all goes well with the surgery and you are soon able to get back to normal activities.
Art
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the views with all these tiny parts in place are just awesome!
all these parts are made to the same quality as this legendary engine, impressive !
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Thanks again for all who took the time to reply/give encouraging words- but thanks also for just taking the time to stop by to see the latest.
Since the last post, I made the shoulder bolts and nuts (2-56 threads) to connect the valve rockers and pushrods. This was just a simple shoulder bolt and nut, no photos. I then, pretty much, dis-assembled all the latest progress. I won’t be re-assembling those parts till it’s time to fit the cam disks.
Rather that just sit around and stew over my up-coming surgery, I thought I’d press on and see how much I can accomplish till the ‘big day’.
To that end, I’ve fitted the crankshaft extension out in front of the slipper disks which you’ll see below.
Here, I’m starting to work a piece of metal that will become the crankshaft front extension. I need to make this ridiculously long in order to have room to cut the gear teeth.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Xq6bqYJV/1.jpg)
Now cutting the gear teeth on the shaft. This is a 16 tooth gear with a diametric pitch of 48.
(https://i.postimg.cc/63002H6y/2.jpg)
Time to trim down the end that fits into the crankshaft throw.
(https://i.postimg.cc/LsykmJx1/3.jpg)
And then the other end which will terminate in a bearing in the engine front case.
(https://i.postimg.cc/0jCyqwfg/4.jpg)
I view of the parts prior to silver soldering.
(https://i.postimg.cc/CLQVn7dP/5.jpg)
And a view after. If you’re especially alert you might remember me making this part up post (quite a way up post). One of the nice things about making your own design is you can change the design if you think of a better way of doing things. I originally planned to Loctite ‘glue’ the gear to this shaft. Making it all integral is a better solution.
(https://i.postimg.cc/KY7VfDvy/6.jpg)
Here you see this crankshaft front extension attached to the crankshaft.
(https://i.postimg.cc/CxTm2n2M/7.jpg)
And here I’ve installed the gear baffle I made up-post. The gear on the crankshaft extension doesn’t turn because the crankshaft doesn’t turn, rather the gear baffle is carried around with the crankcase and the gears mounted to it rotate as they mesh with the crankshaft gear. This was a constant issue of confusion during the design phase back last fall. I had to keep reminding myself that most everything on this engine works opposite than common logic might dictate.
(https://i.postimg.cc/rwMYmtNn/8.jpg)
Next, I’ll be working on the gear train that rides the gear baffle and drives the cam disks.
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Nice gear and I believe that you will be very happy that you changed your design here :ThumbsUp:
Per
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Per, Thanks for the support; also – thanks for those taking the time to stop by.
Since the last post, I’ve been working on the gear cage to support the single, what I’m calling, idler shaft and two gears.
You saw the rear gear baffle up post a bit, below is the finished front gear baffle. The gearing sandwiches between the front and rear baffle on the idler shaft you see below.
(https://i.postimg.cc/fbd2yzV4/1.jpg)
And a photo of the front baffle mounted to the engine case.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZRVrK2xt/2.jpg)
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Is that a tiny ball bearing race on the idler shaft in that picture? I keep having to remind myself how small these parts are - great work!
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This is coming along nicely. I get my model engineering satisfaction vicariously through these builds these days and I have to say I thoroughly enjoy them all. :cheers:
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Nice descriptions Craig (the backwards idea of the cylinders and timing gears spinning around a fixed crankshaft gear does seem confusing, but your description had me following along), and as usual some interesting and intricate work. I was out for 10 days on a vacation trip to Germany with SWMBO, looks like you have made good progress in the interim!
:cheers:
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I’m still following along Craig, excellent work.
-Bob
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Chris, Wagnmkr, Ben & Bob; thanks for your responses. Recovery from the knee joint replacement surgery is proceeding…. S..l..o..w..l..y. I haven’t ventured out to the shop for over a week now. I’m so bored that I’ll need to get out there soon or I’ll go batty, probably won’t be too productive for a while.
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Craig,
Hope you recover from the knee op soon. My wife has had both of hers done during last 2 years, and I am afraid that according to the consultant mine were due about 5 years ago. :). Ideally I want to put it off as long as possible, he has also been talking of a shoulder replacement. This I certainly want to put off, especially when he says "we consider the ability to raise your arm to a position level with your shoulder to be a good result of surgery". That would b....r up pretty well all my hobbies.
I would be interested to now how easy (and painful) it is to kneel following surgery. My wife says she can walk way better but kneeling is a no no. Scar tissue makes it too painful.
Looking forward to seeing the next stages of the Le Rhone.
Colin
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Great to hear that you are in the recovery phase - let hope you get through that as quickly as possible and with a satisfactory result - Best wishes :LittleAngel:
Per
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Yes, it is hard to stay out of the shop during recovery! It's important, but it's not fun.
I got some other toys to help pass the time while I was banned from my shop. I got an Adruino and some sensors and gadgets to play with. I found it really helped keep me busy which made being out of my shop almost bearable. It was important to just to be doing something!
Best of luck with the recovery, Craig!
Kim
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Get well soon :) :) :) :ThumbsUp:
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Thanks for all your responses; and thanks for taking the time to stop by.
Looking back through this thread a bit I realize I haven’t answered Chris’s question regarding the bearing size on the idler shaft. This is a 1/8th inch ID, ¼ in. OD ball bearing. Not real small, but not too big either.
Colin: kneeling on the knee is a problem. I can kneel on the one that was done back in December but it’s very uncomfortable to do so. I suspect with the right knee padding it could be done, but it’s never going to be like the original knee.
I made the gear you see below before the surgery, just didn’t post till now. This is the larger gear that runs on the idler shaft.
(https://i.postimg.cc/3xS8nKhK/1.jpg)
Post-surgery I find I can get about one hour out in the shop before I need to stop and prop the leg up and let my knee rest. Over the past few days I’ve worked in a few one hour sessions and the results are seen below. For being one week out of surgery I’m delighted with my recovery, though this was another partial joint replacement as opposed to a full knee joint replacement which would require a slower recovery.
Here is gear “blank” for the small gear that rides on the idler shaft. I made this yesterday.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sXFRNxNR/2.jpg)
Today I cut the gear teeth is a somewhat longer than an hour session; took a good long rest afterwards.
(https://i.postimg.cc/SsLH1r9W/3.jpg)
Here you see the two idler gears adjoined and mounted to the idler shaft.
(https://i.postimg.cc/wxVShwgz/4.jpg)
Finally, the gears mounted in the gear cage on the engine.
(https://i.postimg.cc/HsnPbH60/5.jpg)
One last gear needs to be made. This one uses the crankshaft front extension as a mandrel and rides the crankshaft on a set of bearings.
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Glad to hear you're getting shop time, Craig! :D
Nice looking gears you made there. It's super interesting to see the whole thing coming together!
Kim
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Ahh, I think I see it now. That last gear to be made is going to drive the cams? Glad to hear you are up and about, if at reduced speed!
:cheers:
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Glad to see that you are well enough to be back on this amazing project and making progress here too :cheers:
Per
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Kim. Ben, Per; thanks for your comments. Thanks also for those who take the time to stop by to see the latest.
Between the Physical therapy for my knee and the reduced shop time the knee demands, progress has been slowed. I still am getting in some shop time though. Last week brought another wrinkle; the VFD on my mill surrendered to age and refused to deliver a reliable, constant spindle speed on the mill.
I found a replacement and purchased and installed it. I still need to set up an on/off switch at the mill (as opposed to using the start/stop function on the new VFD mounted to the wall) but that will require some step-ladder work and I’m not too keen on addressing that till the knee gets a bit better. The on/off function on the VFD will work for now.
I show the progress below. This is a photo of the completed gear train that will drive the cam disks. The cam disks will attach to the center gear on top of the stack. (need to drill some mounting holes for the cam disks yet).
(https://i.postimg.cc/SN7n6t9K/1.jpg)
I also made a “false” front for the engine case. There is a bearing in the front of the engine case that stabilizes the front of the crankshaft extension. With a solid crankcase front it would be impossible to observe the cam disks and cam rockers to verify their operation. I made this ‘temporary’ front for the engine so I can ‘look in’ and verify that everything is functioning as designed.
(https://i.postimg.cc/XvZNz2rd/2.jpg)
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Great work Craig! :cheers: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Kim. Ben, Per; thanks for your comments. Thanks also for those who take the time to stop by to see the latest.
Between the Physical therapy for my knee and the reduced shop time the knee demands, progress has been slowed. I still am getting in some shop time though. Last week brought another wrinkle; the VFD on my mill surrendered to age and refused to deliver a reliable, constant spindle speed on the mill.
I found a replacement and purchased and installed it. I still need to set up an on/off switch at the mill (as opposed to using the start/stop function on the new VFD mounted to the wall) but that will require some step-ladder work and I’m not too keen on addressing that till the knee gets a bit better. The on/off function on the VFD will work for now.
I show the progress below. This is a photo of the completed gear train that will drive the cam disks. The cam disks will attach to the center gear on top of the stack. (need to drill some mounting holes for the cam disks yet).
(https://i.postimg.cc/SN7n6t9K/1.jpg)
I also made a “false” front for the engine case. There is a bearing in the front of the engine case that stabilizes the front of the crankshaft extension. With a solid crankcase front it would be impossible to observe the cam disks and cam rockers to verify their operation. I made this ‘temporary’ front for the engine so I can ‘look in’ and verify that everything is functioning as designed.
(https://i.postimg.cc/XvZNz2rd/2.jpg)
I hear you about the knee Craig. I had mine surgically reconstructed about 3 years ago....torn quad tendon....bad.....kneeling is just becoming possible, and I recently put a new sink in complete with some pipe sweating! but it's just never going to be the same that's for sure.
The engine is coming along great! Can't wait to hear her come to life!
Dave
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I've been told that switching at the mill can damage a VFD. On mine, the VFD is wall mounted but has a remote control pad that I mounted on the mill.
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Kirk
For that possible reason I’m using the controls on the VFD to start/stop the mill. The VFD does support the facility for a remote switch I’ll mount on the mill, to control the on/off function of the VFD and that is what I’ll use when I get to it.
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Looking good Craig! The false front is a good idea, I can imagine a bit of fiddling being required to get the cams/lifters/springs/followers set properly.
:cheers:
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Ben: we think alike. :ThumbsUp:
Thanks for taking the time to stop by and see the latest.
A bit of progress today… somewhat hampered by having to coordinate the replacement of our washing machine… which was showing signs of wanting to puke all over the floor of the house.
Today was a day of assembly; installing the cam rockers and push/pull rods to the engine case. I’m thinking I might take an aside here and make a cam disk without cams. With the specified diameter, it should allow all eighteen of the rollers on the cam-followers to rest on this cam-less cam disk. This should uncover any in consistencies in placement of the cam-followers. If any are out of place, it should be easy to tell. The cam-followers have to be in alignment in order for the valves to operate properly.
(https://i.postimg.cc/fb2zjTWs/20220517-154921.jpg)
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:popcorn: Wow. That's really coming together nicely, Craig. I like the idea of an alignment jig/false cam. Possibly a couple diameters? Thinking you could also (i.e. in addition to alignment of followers) preset the rod lengths if the "cam" was sized in the neutral (all valves closed) position...then use the smaller one to verify the spring force is sufficient to...um which was it, open the exhaust? Or intake? Whichever. Maybe that's too much work versus just installing the true cam next and working on timing. Is there an adjustment for timing other than slipping the cam along one gear tooth at a time?
:cheers: :NotWorthy:
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Craig:
Some time ago we discussed that these were push/pull rods, and that you'd probably have a lash to set in both directions. Would it be possible to make your "cam-less" cam disc of the correct dimension that you could set the lash of all 9 of the cylinders in one of those directions at once? Kill 2 birds with one cam-less cam?
Don
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Thanks for stopping by to see the latest.
Ben: I am hoping that the action of the two cam disks, working against the cam rockers will push/pull the valve push/pull rods to an alignment where the valve springs will not need to exert force against them; their job should just be to close the valves. The valve springs aren’t near strong enough to move the push/pull rods. There will be a bit of clearance between the valve rockers and the valve stems, so the push/pull rods will have a bit of travel before they actually open a valve. At least, that’s the plan.
Don: It doesn’t appear that the full size had a way to adjust valve/rocker clearance. I’m assuming they must have, I just haven’t been able to uncover the method in which they did it. I suspect I’ll need to re-make a few valve rockers to get the lash I want. Seems I’m re-making a lot of things with this model.
Well, I haven’t posted for a while. Things have gotten rather hectic here at the DeShong abode. Last week a storm came through and dropped power poles and power transformers in the roads in the neighborhood. One of the huge oak trees in the yard was blown down in the storm. It grazed the house, only causing minor damage but it fell in the driveway and destroyed beyond repair, the wife’s car, my son’s truck, and my eighteen year old Ford F-150- all the vehicles we own. Between getting the tree removed, talking to insurance adjusters, searching for new transportation, and trying to attend Physical Therapy for my knee there hasn’t been much time left for shop activity.
Before all the above occurred I did get a cam disk made and fitted well enough to realize the I needed to re-design the cam rocker system, changing the pivot points of the cam rockers so they can ride up over the ramps on the cam disks better than with the current design. I have a new design and I’ve started re-making parts.
So- stay tuned and I hope to have a more encouraging update in a week or so.
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Ouch on the house/car/trees, but glad you all came through it okay! And glad the workshop is okay!!
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Yowsa! That was some storm. Sorry it hit you so hard, and sorry about your cars and having to deal with insurance. That's never any fun :( So much more fun to go play in the shop. Hopefully, you'll get that stuff behind you in a few weeks and be able to put your effort into the fun stuff again!
Kim
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Sorry to hear all of that - sure hope you can get past the hassle and back to some quality time soon.
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Ohh - that Storm where too close for comfort and sorry about the damage - but the important fact is that none of your where injured :LittleAngel:
Need for parts remaking ehh - though annoying - we have all been there and at least you will be happier with their replacements ....
Per
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Hi Craig, sorry to hear about the storm damage, you would think it could have at least given you a bit more time to get over the knee surgery. I hope the insurance company can treat you kindly but such events always involve time and effort before they are completely resolved. Good that no one was hurt and the house damage is not too severe.
MJM460
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Ooof. Three cars from one tree, means BIG tree, and bigger storm. Glad you are ok otherwise...but wouldn't wish the chore of buying new/used vehicles on anybody these days. :cheers:
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Thanks for your responses and commiseration. The collective of the model engine maker community were heard to say, “Wasn’t some guy building a Le Rhone engine? Wonder what happened to him?”
Well, yea, he was, and still is. But with the knee surgery and recovery with physical therapy, the washing machine going on the fritz, the storm, the house and vehicle damage; adding in the heat pump on the house that decided to surrender to the summer heat, and the latest “gift” our Son gave us… a case of Covid… shop time has been a rare occurrence. Still, I’ve been plodding along as time and effort allows. With all my vaccines up to date, the Covid ordeal is turning out to be what amounts to a mild case of the Flu. Just a low-grade temperature from time to time that makes you feel punk and saps the energy away. Still, with it all I’ve made some progress.
I’ve decided to “divide and conquer” with regards to the cam rockers. The plan was- and still is- to fit one rocker to the cam disks and then fit each of the other eight individually, in turn. This will allow me to see if there is any binding in the mechanism and if so- where it might be occurring. At this point I’ve successfully fitted the cam disks and one cam rocker. The mechanism appears to work as required, pushing and pulling the push/pull rod and actuating the valves as required at the correct timing.
This is a major milestone achieved. Now: eight more rockers to go. Below I supply a few photos of the progress.
First, a few views of the cam disk assembly. This is the rear of the assembly, showing the drive gear and the intake cam disk.
(https://i.postimg.cc/G2szLxFG/20220614-130958.jpg)
Here I show the front of the assembly with a good view of the exhaust cam disk.
(https://i.postimg.cc/jq1Kkx51/20220614-131009.jpg)
A close-up view of a cam rocker. It is positioned to ride up on a lobe of the exhaust cam disk.
(https://i.postimg.cc/DywCkx38/20220614-115902.jpg)
A view of the cam rocker, push/pull rod, and valve rocker assembly.
(https://i.postimg.cc/RFv710MN/20220614-115906.jpg)
Another view of the crankcase.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Rh53mSFv/20220614-115921.jpg)
Below: a short video where I turn the engine and you can, hopefully, observe the cam rockers riding up and over the cam lobes on the cam disks and actuating the valves in a cylinder head.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4Ycep9sZ_k
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I'm glad you are managing to stay positive :) :) :wine1:
Radial/rotary engine cams are a whole special subject ::) it looks like you have yours under control :praise2: :praise2:
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Boy, you've certainly had a rough go if it lately, but I too applaud your positive attitude. Nothing like having a good project to escape to, even if only briefly.
That video really helps with my understanding. It will be something to see all nine in place. Thanks for posting it! :cheers:
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Hello Craig,
Been missing my regular Le Rhone fix. Pleased to see you have all those 'distractions' behind you and you can now get on with this masterpiece.
Mike :cheers:
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Wow, those rockers/rods are quite intricate, very well done! Not bad for 'just' 'plodding along'!! :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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You must have spend ALL the possible bad thing that can happen in a very condensed timeframe :o
I really hope that there's a much tranquility (in the good way) and shop time in your near future :cheers:
Nice with a Round and Rotary Engine fix - having the next big thing here also working as it should is very enjoyable to watch :Love: :praise2:
Per
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It looks like there are 5 lobes on the cam plates, is that right? And they turn just a bit slower than the rest of the engine. What's the ratio of the cam plates to the rest of the engine? That's just fascinating! :popcorn:
Incredible job, Craig, in spite of all the life hazards you've had to navigate.
Kim
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Thanks for the support; I’m hoping I’ve packed all my bad luck for the next few years into this last month!
Kim: You’ve touched upon one of the more confusing aspects I faced during the design of this engine. Why five cam lobes for a nine cylinder engine? The geometry just works out that way. With five cam lobes, every cylinder gets to fire and the firing order is 1-3-5-7-9-2-4-6-8.
The engine case revolves twice for each cylinder to fire. After two revolutions, the engine case has advanced one fifth of the rotation of the cam disks (or to state it another way, for every two revolutions of the engine case the cam disks rotate 1 & 4/5th revolutions). The cam disks rotate along with the engine case but the gearing regulates the different ratio between the rotations. With the engine case advancing one fifth of the rotation of the cam disks for every two revolutions, you would think the gear ratio in the gear train would be 10 to 9. You would be mistaken.
The mount for the idler shaft is attached to the engine case, so as the engine case rotates the idler shaft is carried around with it. The gear ratio between the crankshaft and the idler shaft is 1 – 5. Since the crankshaft doesn’t rotate, every time the engine case completes a full rotation, the idler shaft completes 1/5th of a rotation in it mount. The gear ratio between the idler shaft and the camshaft (that rides the crankshaft on a mandrel) has a gear ratio of 1 -2. This means that it takes two revolutions of the engine case for the engine case to advance 1/5th of a camshaft revolution (which is what we desire). This infers that the actual gear train installed in the engine has a 1 – 10 gear ratio; producing a 10-9 ratio between the engine case and the cam disks.
If you find this confusing, you’re not alone. Last Fall, when I was designing this engine and trying to figure all this out; the old nogg’in got a real workout. It can still make my head spin around and fly off if I think about it too hard.
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Wow! Now it's even MORE fascinating! Thank you for the excellent and detailed explanation! It does make your head spin! (Mine's spinning at a 3x ratio of the engine case though! :Jester:)
It's incredible that you figured it out, and even more amazing that someone designed it originally!
Thanks Craig,
Kim
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That's so cool, and thanks for the detailed explanation. Had to watch and then rewatch the video to make sense of it all...and probably still have 1/10th (or is it 1/9th) of the understanding you have, Craig. :lolb:
Sorry to hear of all the excitement outside the shop, but good to hear you and yours are bearing up ok. Our neighbors, and my wife's sister and her husband have all had Covid recently. Similar reports as yours, it's just a blah feeling that comes and goes, and slowly goes away. All of them fully vaxed as well.
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Thanks for your comments. Thanks also for those just taking the time to stop by and see the goings-on.
Two busy days to make and fit another cam rocker. This is slow going. It’s fitting, marking where things bind-up, dis-assembly, filing the tight spot, re-assembly, and locating the next problem area and repeating. I don’t want to file too much at one time because I don’t want a lot of wasted motion.
Below, a photo of the two installed rockers.
(https://i.postimg.cc/pX6SxVy0/20220616-160552.jpg)
And a photo of the rockers, pushrods, etc.
(https://i.postimg.cc/pX6SxVy0/20220616-160552.jpg)
The engine to date:
(https://i.postimg.cc/QdKyMLTj/20220616-160535.jpg)
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Moving forward Craig :cheers:
I got a question - I can't get my head around that you got one working fine :ThumbsUp: and to me that indicates that you got all parts / areas off both the opening and closing Cam or perhaps more correct the Inlet and the Exhaust Cam - done correct (or at least working correctly) - So why does you need to fettle them more to get the next 'Rocker' working ...???
Or did I just not read your explanation right :noidea:
Per
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Thanks for stopping by to see the latest.
Per: if I were a better machinist, you would be correct in your comment. I have a good friend who also builds models. He is a tool and die maker by trade. When he builds a model he makes all the individual parts, placing them in a drawer when complete. Once he’s made all the parts he assembles the model; rarely does he need to address fit issues. I’d suspect that there are several folks who frequent this build site who work at this level also. I’m not one of them.
All my parts are “close” but not exact. The accumulation of small errors causes things which should be repetitive to “not quite” be there. This requires a bit of fitting of the individual parts. I will state that this last cam rocker went in with no adjustments required; so possibly the other six will be smooth sailing also.
While I was making this latest rocker, I took photographs along the way to document the process. First, a view of the completed rocker so you can see where all this machining is headed. I’ll state up front that there are a lot of steps and a lot of setups. I’ve streamlined this as much as I can figure. There are a few measurements on these little things that must be spot-on or things just don’t fit right at assembly.
(https://i.postimg.cc/5tgdGrSc/11.jpg)
I start with a rectangular piece of steel and drill all the necessary holes, some functional and some just locating holes. The two little holes at the front of the piece mount the .156 inch rollers on 0-90 screws. The tap charts call for a .035 inch hole, but if you drill one this size you end up breaking $35 taps (ask me how I know). A .040 hole works well and there is still plenty of material left to form the threads.
(https://i.postimg.cc/xTMG9VJz/1.jpg)
Next, a lot of work with the Volstro rotary milling head (man, I LOVE that thing). Here I’m forming the edge profile.
(https://i.postimg.cc/jqXKmLvw/2.jpg)
More rotary milling head work. Here I’m beginning to form the push/pull rod tab.
(https://i.postimg.cc/XYNgLDqB/3.jpg)
Forming the cut-out for the bearing. Due to the motion of these rockers and the push/pull tabs, a simple hole at the end radius of the push/pull tab would only bind the motion. This elongated slot is required. All this work was done with the rotary milling head and with one set-up.
(https://i.postimg.cc/vTqmsB7s/4.jpg)
Now I need to move to the lathe to remove the “center portion” of the part. This is done with a parting tool after centering the piece in the 4-jaw chuck.
(https://i.postimg.cc/pLnLwPpw/5.jpg)
With the Bridgeport my primary mill, my old mill drill doesn’t get much use, but with the Rotary milling head assembled to the Bridgeport, and the need for some standard milling, I can put the old mill drill to good use. Here I’m refining the part profile.
(https://i.postimg.cc/QMQxMSgS/6.jpg)
After cutting the in-process part from the stock, I’m milling the reverse side to the final dimension.
(https://i.postimg.cc/gjTG77dc/7.jpg)
This reverse side needs a relief for the shoulder bolt that attaches this part to the cam rocker ring.
(https://i.postimg.cc/X7tVctQQ/8.jpg)
Now, back over to the Bridgeport and rotary milling head to complete the profile on this side of the piece.
(https://i.postimg.cc/SsQqx4xN/9.jpg)
The first assembly showed I needed a bit mere relief than the designed part, so I’m cutting it here. There was interference between the lifting lobes on the cam disks and the bottom of these cam rockers.
(https://i.postimg.cc/SNY4sDk8/10.jpg)
A view of the engine with three cam rockers installed.
(https://i.postimg.cc/hj3F47Yp/12.jpg)
And a close-up of the three cam rockers installed on the cam rocker mount ring.
(https://i.postimg.cc/P5ngqH6s/13.jpg)
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That's a big job for such a small job! Plenty of impressive machining going on in your shop. :ThumbsUp:
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I should start by mention that I'm not a machinist or very good in this game + you shouldn't sell yourself short here ..!!!.. as I'm sure everybody are rather impressed with your builds :praise2:
Second I see that I got it the wrong way around - it isn't the Cams that you tweaked, but the followers and I do understand that given the complexity .... Thank you very much for a detailed show and tell :cheers:
Per
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Couldn't agree with Per and Ron more here. You do a lot of impressive work and I'm constantly amazed with your builds!
Kim
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Ditto those comments above. Building at small scale can be ridiculously difficult, because the realistic tolerances required also diminish with the scale, in some (many?) cases. Looking good, Craig! :DrinkPint:
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Ron, Per, Kim, and Ben; thanks for the responses and encouragement. Thanks also for everyone who takes the time to stop by and see the latest.
I've been busy making and installing cam rockers. The process was to make a cam rocker, install it and check for fit and binding. Once everything for that rocker was worked out, un-install it and move on to the next cylinder. I did this because, sometimes, a rocker was installed, tested and adjusted numerous times to get a proper fit and dealing with the assembly of multiple rockers would have been problematic.
As I was working my way around the engine it occurred to me that assembling all nine of the rockers to the mount ring was going to present some problems and when the time came, there indeed were, but nothing that a little problem solving, patience, and persistence didn't resolve.
After assembling all the rockers to the engine case I spun the engine around ten times (to check the fit of all the rockers on all the cam lobes). Everything moves freely.
Below is a photo of the assembled cam rockers on their mount ring. It seems a shame to cover all this up with the cam disks, and then subsequently with the front of the engine case. A lot of work went into this assembly.
(https://i.postimg.cc/9Q7tFChY/20220627-125853.jpg)
While I was taking photos I couldn't resist mounting the intake tubes Dave so kindly provided for me. I had been painting them all along as time allowed. Still not sure I like the current finish, but I'll let it be for now.
(https://i.postimg.cc/TPSKyWJy/20220628-114411.jpg)
We might think the engine is nearly complete but in reality there is much work yet to accomplish. I still need to address ignition and a carburetor as well as making the engine case front, a propeller hub, and a permanent stand for it. I'm leaning toward just acquiring a suction carburetor like the many that have been used on models as opposed to trying to make my own.
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It's a really fine piece of engineering. Beautiful craftsmanship sir!
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Wow Craig! That's just an amazing amount of work you've packed into that engine! It looks beautiful! :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
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Oh. My.
Hard to tell its a scaled down model.
Stunning!
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:praise2: :praise2: :praise2: :praise2: :praise2:
Oh Lord - we are not worthy ;D - seriously, it looks amazing :ThumbsUp:
If you want to see it run - I will give you a :ThumbsUp: for the idea of using a proven carburator.
You can consider making the connection for that in such a way that you easily can change it to a replica for looks / apperance .... :noidea:
Per
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:Love:
:cheers:
Don
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That's a fine engine Craig. Look forward to seeing a "run" video when you complete it. :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :cheers:
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Looks excellent :praise2: :praise2: The top picture reminds me of some of the watches where the mechanism is exposed :)
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Like Roger said, the assembled followers and gears resemble fine clockwork (and probably required the same requisite skill at the scale you are working to). I like the intake pipes...they look hand-hammered, which I imagine the originals were as well? So just spark and carburetor, how hard can that be :insane: ? :Lol:
Amazing progress so far, Craig. Keep up the good work! :popcorn:
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Stuart, Kim, Chris, Per, Don, CNR, Roger, Ben; thanks for your kind comments and complements. Thanks also for those who just silently take the me to stop by and see the progress.
Not any progress to report today. I like to think of myself and as an alert person who can't be easily fooled, but I fell for an internet scam last week. I realized I'd been scammed in time and locked and then requested a new credit card; so I didn't go in the hole monetarily, but I'm out of business purchasing stuff till the new credit card shows up in the mail.
I need to order the propeller and take possession of it to verify the hub dimensions before I can design and make the propeller hub and the engine case front of the engine. I also need to order a piece of delrin from which to fabricate the distributor disk at the rear of the engine; so progress on the engine is temporarily halted for a few days.
I did attend the big farm show near Denton, North Carolina this last Saturday and took a few of my models along for the day. I've provided a photo of my exhibit below. I took the four Otto & Langen models and,of course, the Le Rhône. The Le Rhône got a lot of interest from the folks who stopped by. It was a good day despite the fact that I left my tool box at home and had to borrow a few tools to assemble the acetylene hoses and some oil to lubricate the Otto & Langens. All the Otto & Langen models ran flawlessly. As usual, I spent the day giving the history of the Otto & Langen engines; I guess being retired from a University I'm still looking for that teachable moment.
(https://i.postimg.cc/B63YS0nN/denton-2022.jpg)
While I'm talking about shows, I plan on attending the Rough and Tumble Association shown at Kinzer, Pennsylvania this August. I should be set up in the model building and I plan on taking the four Otto & Langen models as well as the Le Rhône, so if you plan on attending, please stop by and say Hi.
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My wife and I attended Rough & Tumble a few years ago. I need to look into this year's dates.
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That's a good display and I'm glad your engines ran well :) :) :ThumbsUp:
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...
While I'm talking about shows, I plan on attending the Rough and Tumble Association shown at Kinzer, Pennsylvania this August. I should be set up in the model building and I plan on taking the four Otto & Langen models as well as the Le Rhône, so if you plan on attending, please stop by and say Hi.
Ooooh, now that is very tempting! Just checked the dates - R&T is Wed thru Sat, Aug 17-20 this year. That luckily falls between several other weekends I have planned for submarine runs and Lombard driving runs. I'd LOVE to stop down and see your models in person, its not a bad drive from here in western NY state, and that show has been on my to-go-to list for a while. Are you planning on being there all four days?
Chris
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Usually go the Thursday or Friday, seeing as it is only fifty minutes away, to avoid the weekend crowds and search for the best deals in the flea market!
-Doug
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...
While I'm talking about shows, I plan on attending the Rough and Tumble Association shown at Kinzer, Pennsylvania this August. I should be set up in the model building and I plan on taking the four Otto & Langen models as well as the Le Rhône, so if you plan on attending, please stop by and say Hi.
Ooooh, now that is very tempting! Just checked the dates - R&T is Wed thru Sat, Aug 17-20 this year. That luckily falls between several other weekends I have planned for submarine runs and Lombard driving runs. I'd LOVE to stop down and see your models in person, its not a bad drive from here in western NY state, and that show has been on my to-go-to list for a while. Are you planning on being there all four days?
Chris
The show dates are August 17th thru the 20th. I plan on getting there mid day Wednesday and staying through Saturday. It would be great to meet you Chris. You could even bring a model or two and We’ll make room for you in with my stuff. They are pretty good about letting you drive onto the show grounds to the model building if you are delivering or retrieving something.
Also, if ANYONE attends, I hope you hunt me down as I’d like to meet any/all of you. I’ll probably be spending most of my time in the model building or in the Willock building, with the full size Otto & Langen.
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Much to my surprise, when I entered the shop this morning; Chris's elves were busy dis-assembling the Le Rhône. :facepalm:
(https://i.postimg.cc/QMDSMRkT/20220705-105505.jpg)
When I asked them what they were about I was told that their Sopwith Camel (Chris, didn't know you had a Sopwith Camel, maybe it's time to clean up the shop?) needed a new engine so they could hunt down and “deal with” the “Red Barron”. Apparently the only way they could transport the engine back to Rochester was in pieces.
I informed them that firstly, the “Red Barron” had been dead for over 100 years and secondly; with Germany being an ally now, the “Red Barron”, were he still alive, would be a friendly aviator.
Enlightened with this information, they excused themselves and departed. Of course, I still had the engine to put back together.
While it was disassembled I though I'd place some thread locker on some of the internal fasteners so that WHEN it runs (please notice my positive attitude), there will be less probability of something coming loose inside and creating all kinds of havoc.
On another note, I've ordered a 32 inch propeller for the model, just about an inch shy of actual scale size.
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So THAT's where they've been all day! Last I saw, the Mann truck went steaming off down the street towing a trailer full of beer, cookies, and wrenches. :lolb:
Don't know why they didn't wait till it was all done and running, they never had much patience. Or sense. Their airplane still doesn't even have the skin on it! Been hanging like this for years in the shop:
(https://i.postimg.cc/QxvcxCyz/IMG-1711.jpg)
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So THAT's where they've been all day! Last I saw, the Mann truck went steaming off down the street towing a trailer full of beer, cookies, and wrenches. :lolb:
Don't know why they didn't wait till it was all done and running, they never had much patience. Or sense. Their airplane still doesn't even have the skin on it! Been hanging like this for years in the shop:
(https://i.postimg.cc/QxvcxCyz/IMG-1711.jpg)
Geez, you’d think they would have at least offered me a cookie and some beer. :cheers: :ThumbsUp:
BTW, NICE looking Sopwith Camel. :praise2:
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I know as a fact from years of reading newspapers that the Sopworth Camel looks like a doghouse.
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I know as a fact from years of reading newspapers that the Sopworth Camel looks like a doghouse.
Only the one hangered in Charlie Brown's back yard! :Lol:
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Back from vacation, rested and ready to resume working on this model. In my travels I journeyed up through Syracuse and Watertown, NY. I waved at the turn-off to Rochester, but I suspect Chris wasn't watching so he missed me. :o :lolb:
Having procured a propeller, I started work on the propeller hub. Here I'm working down the diameter of the hub barrel on the lathe.
(https://i.postimg.cc/DwCZGt8Z/1.jpg)
After cutting the propeller hub off the stock, I'm just trying to get a flat edge to work from; the finished cross section will be thinner but I need to drill a plethora of holes and I want the stock rigid enough to support the pressure of the drill without bending.
(https://i.postimg.cc/hGzSdvky/2.jpg)
Here I've drilled all the holes in the hub.
(https://i.postimg.cc/1Rcy6LdQ/3.jpg)
I placed the hub back in the lathe to finish the rear of the hub, but here in North Carolina Summers, we can get afternoon thunder storms and one is blowing up now. I don't want to take the chance of a lightning strike on the power lines frying the electronics in the shop so I'll call it a day.
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I saw the elves waving out the window, but they didn't say who it was! :Lol:
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Hello Craig,
Still following along with this amazing engine build. :ThumbsUp: :DrinkPint: :ThumbsUp:
What size propeller did you buy for it? Must be a big one
Mike
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Glad to see you safely back, Craig! :popcorn:
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Thanks for all the comments. Thanks also for those who just take the time to stop by.
Mike: From what I can tell propellers anywhere from 96 inches to 138 inches were used. The propeller I bought is 32 inches which fits the smaller size at 1/3rd scale. They get prohibitively expensive in the larger sizes, as I'm sure you know. With the mass of the cylinders I'm pretty sure this engine would run without a propeller; still, might as well get one.
Moving on with construction of the propeller hub.
In the photo below, I've faced the rear of the propeller hub down to the correct width.
(https://i.postimg.cc/gcDsbWyd/1.jpg)
Fortunately, I had this tapered ream left over from a previous project. Here I'm reaming the hub in preparation for mounting on the engine.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZnMyYVKP/2.jpg)
Moving on the the propeller hub bolts. Yes, I could have used threaded rod, I even have some the correct size; still, the Le Rhône uses hub bolts, so I've chosen to make them. Here I'm drilling the end so that later, I can mount the in-process bolt between centers for turning.
(https://i.postimg.cc/nzLzsBW3/3.jpg)
Turning the end of the bolt down so it can be threaded.
(https://i.postimg.cc/DZbzdn2G/4.jpg)
Years ago, I discovered that this drill chuck fits nicely in the recess of my small die holder, thus keeping the die centered and the threads “true”. This is a 5-40 thread.
(https://i.postimg.cc/s278pNkX/5.jpg)
Now, turning the bolt shaft down to 1/8th inch diameter.
(https://i.postimg.cc/nhYBBKdx/6.jpg)
Parting the finished bolt from the stock.
(https://i.postimg.cc/9QpJPwb6/7.jpg)
One of the propeller hub bolts. Only seven more to make.
(https://i.postimg.cc/htj7wJcW/8.jpg)
Hardly a construction; I've rested the propeller with propeller hub on the top of the engine, just to see what things look like.
(https://i.postimg.cc/fLKzDKfH/9.jpg)
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:popcorn: Looks great!
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That looks amazing Craig!
Dave
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That's mighty cool looking, Craig!
Kim
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Nice job on the hub! That prop is going to look wonderful in the next test spinning video, while its slow enough to see! For test running under power, are you going to make a smaller disc of about same weight for safer handling? Better get the shop elves some tiedowns!
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Ben, Dave, Kim, Chris; Thanks for your comments and support. Thanks also for those who silently stop by to see the latest.
Chris: Nope, If I was going to make a flywheel; I'd not have gotten the prop. Once this thing is running (again, notice my positive attitude :embarassed:), I can't see running it much. As I stated earlier, it will be flinging oil everywhere.
Not much of an interesting post today, but I thought you'd appreciate the update.
Here you see a 5 inch diameter x 3 inch length CHUNK of A36 steel. I would have rather made the engine case front from aluminum, but I'm not sure I would have not had galling problems between the tapered engine front shaft and the prop hub. So steel was a safer bet.
(https://i.postimg.cc/43wz4VsD/20220729-140020.jpg)
Here I've just started working down the outside diameter.
(https://i.postimg.cc/RFyG9KTM/20220730-142035.jpg)
Sorrty, a shameless aside; my Grandson (only grandchild so far) was delivered to the house to stay for the first tine with Grandpa and Grandma without Mom and Dad. The stay went pretty well. Here he's at the Natural History Museum in Raleigh with Grandma, getting a photo in front of the Megladon teeth.
(https://i.postimg.cc/8zN411Lr/20220731-130101.jpg)
Back to the Le Rhône; I missed taking some photos on the machine work inside this piece; pretty standard work, you didn't miss much. Working down the outside. Here I'm just removing stock,
(https://i.postimg.cc/2SYxGz6S/20220801-112442.jpg)
MANY hours later, after mindlessly watching the lathe chew away on this chunk of steel amidst all the blue smoke; I'm close to the necessary dimensions. I need to cut away a bit more material and then I can start the final shaping.
(https://i.postimg.cc/9MRhb3XJ/20220801-162943.jpg)
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Lot of stock came off that bar! 5 gallon bucket of swarf and chips?
Howdy to your Grandson and his Grandma!
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That looks like a cool museum. Hope you stayed cool generating all those chips. It's finally cooled back to "normal" summer temp's. out here in the northwest...even saw a bit of rain. :popcorn:
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Thanks for stopping by.
CNR: would you believe a 55 gallon trash bag full?
Ben: Hadn't been to the museum for years. My Grandson is WILD about dinosaurs so we went to the natural history museum. They have a complete skeleton of one of the Theropods that stands about 15 feet tall. (Can't remember it's classification... not one of the ones that gets talked about). If you think about it, it can be quite terrifying. :o The thing has four inch serrated teeth, it could lop off your arm, leg, head. :o Not something I'd choose to meet in a dark alley, or anywhere else for that matter. Sure am glad they went extinct. :ThumbsUp:
Work proceeded on the case front. In the photo below I've roughed out all the dimensions.
(https://i.postimg.cc/QtQKsQWR/1.jpg)
Time to thread for the prop nut. This is a 1/4-28 thread.
(https://i.postimg.cc/MGypjWKB/2.jpg)
Here I'm cutting the taper for the propeller hub. You would think this was difficult but it is deceptively easy. I set the compound for a slightly steeper angle that required, cut the taper using the prop hub for fitting, and then final fit using a file. Usually the back portion of the taper needs filed down a bit. It's try fit, file, try fit, file; till the prop hub slides into place.
(https://i.postimg.cc/BbdxnSnz/3.jpg)
The completed case front after a bit of forming, filing, and sanding.
(https://i.postimg.cc/HxKrm6SW/4.jpg)
Haven't cut the threaded rod for the studs that are used to attach the case front; nor have I made the model nuts; but here's a view of the completed front of the engine.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Hk94m8fc/5.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/zv1Y2mjK/6.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Jh4NJGCB/7.jpg)
Next I'll be thinking about the engine stand and ignition.
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Hello Craig,
Are you sure you have that big prop mounted the right way round. From the photos, it looks like the trailing edge of the prop is toward the front. It looked correct in reply #542.
Mike
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Hello Craig,
Are you sure you have that big prop mounted the right way round. From the photos, it looks like the trailing edge of the prop is toward the front. It looked correct in reply #542.
Mike
I was planning on using the engine in a pusher configuration. :embarassed:
Ok, you caught me Mike, I’ve turned it around.
(https://i.postimg.cc/6q441LjD/20220802-192858.jpg)
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Beauty! :ThumbsUp:
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Amazing .... it simply just looks Fantastic :praise2: :praise2: :Love:
:cheers: :popcorn:
Per
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That was a baby megalodon. Big ones are twice that. Still wouldn't want to meet the little one.
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Looking great, Craig! :popcorn: :cheers:
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Just beautiful, Craig!
Kim
PS I especially like the foam on the ends of the propeller to keep you from hurting yourself! :Lol:
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Thanks for all the complements!
Kirk: The jaws belonging to his Mom or Dad are at the marine aquarium at Fort Fisher, NC. You can stand in the jaws with head room to spare. Scary enough to keep you out of the ocean, even though they are extinct.
Kim: the prop came with the foam tip protectors. I’m klutzy enough to ram the end if the prop into something and shatter it, so I’ll leave the tip protectors on till I actually try to run this thing.
To complete the history lesson....
The theropod I mentioned above is an acrocanthosaurus, the tenth largrest theropod on record; but at 39 feet in length and weighing 6 tons it was still something to be reconed with.
(https://i.postimg.cc/J72xPMDG/acrocanthosaurus-NC-Musium-Natural-History.jpg)
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Thanks for stopping by.
I ventured out to the shop this morning and made the model nuts and cut the studs; then installed them on the engine case.
Then I took a judicious look at the engine case front (the part I finished yesterday) and realized that, even though I'd invested several hours filing and sanding the front, there were still a few significant tool marks that really needed addressed. I'd hate to take this thing to a show and hear someone exclaim, "the guy seems to know something about turning handles, but obviously the use of a file and sand paper is a foreigh concept to him". :naughty:
So I mounted the piece on the lathe again and spent more time removing the scratches and smoothing the contour. Still not as nice as i'd like, but my hand started cramping from manipulating the sand paper and it had had enough for now.
Below is the final photo before I turn my attention to an engine stand and ignition.
(https://i.postimg.cc/G21XQMxL/20220804-113013.jpg)
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That looks mighty good to my eyes, Craig. Awesome!
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That is really pretty, Craig! :popcorn:
Can't wait to see it on a stand, with the prop going round and round! :)
Kim
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Looks good to me :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :wine1:
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Looks great if you ask me! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
edit: went back and looked at the earlier pictures again. Yeah, ok, I guess there were a few scratches and tool marks, but the latest picture looks beautiful, probably better than any of the original engines ever looked, especially after a run-in with the Fokkers. LOL
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again, thanks for the completements.
Can't wait to see it on a stand, with the prop going round and round! :)
Kim
We can only hope Kim.
Looks great if you ask me! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
edit: went back and looked at the earlier pictures again. Yeah, ok, I guess there were a few scratches and tool marks, but the latest picture looks beautiful, probably better than any of the original engines ever looked, especially after a run-in with the Fokkers. LOL
The model does exhibit one serious flaw where after completing the machining of one of the cylinders I dropped it on the concrete floor, breaking one of the fins off :wallbang: during the Fokker attack you mention, a ricochet broke off one of the cylinder cooling fins. :LittleAngel:
(https://i.postimg.cc/nz9fc0F7/20220804-215715.jpg)
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Funny you should mention the Fokker attack. Why just yesterday
I broke an M3 tap in a block because I'm a clumsy ham fisted git a Fokker flew by, shot through the shop's open window, and broke an M3 tap off! Such a hazard these days! :Lol: :cheers:
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Funny you should mention the Fokker attack. Why just yesterday I broke an M3 tap in a block because I'm a clumsy ham fisted git a Fokker flew by, shot through the shop's open window, and broke an M3 tap off! Such a hazard these days! :Lol: :cheers:
Sounds like we both need to pay a bit more attention in order to eliminate the ‘Fokker scourge’.
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Thanks for stopping by.
I've been busy making the permanent engine stand. I thought it might be nice to have a nice stand for the model when I take it to the Rough and Tumble Engineers Association show next week. Also, time to retire the builders stand and have something permanent. My plans are to bolt this stand down to a piece of plywood when it comes time to attempt starting the model, otherwise it's a convenient size for storage on the shelf.
(https://i.postimg.cc/SKc0Dq6y/20220811-175540.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/523K00SQ/20220811-181015.jpg)
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That looks fantastic Craig, I bet that it will get lots of much deserved attention at the show!
Dave
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Beautiful, Craig! :cheers:
The black stand really sets off the engine well!
Kim
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Craig,
That looks stunning. Cannot wait to see the video of it running.
Colin
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Wauw - what a final result :praise2: :praise2: :praise2: :praise2:
It really presents it self in a fantastic way on the stand and with the Prop :praise2:
As mentioned - now we REALLY look forward to see a Video of it running (and spraying Castor Oil ALL over the place :LittleDevil: - like it's Big Brother). You should get some attension with this one on the Stand - next to your Otto Models :cheers:
Per
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That just looks so cool, sitting out in the wild like that. :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
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Lovely Craig! :popcorn: :NotWorthy:
Now you just need a stuffed Snoopy dog to ride behind it, goggles and flying helmet on... :Lol:
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Well done, well done well done sir. Loving it. Every bit of it. Stunning engine :cheers: I've red all the posts and followed this thread regularly. Thank you for sharing this one.
rgds
Olli-Matti
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Dave, CNR, Kim, Colin, Per, Ron, Ben, Olli; thanks for your kind comments. Thanks also for those silently stopping by to see the latest.
Dave: your induction pipes go a long way towards making this model so appealing; thanks again for your assistance.
Per: haven't decided completely on castor oil, that was a good lubricant back then; but oils have come a long way.
Ben: I'd need the airplane...dog house... not gonna happen. :Lol:
One minor setback I've discovered; I don't know how big of a deal this will be yet. The engine case should be sealed and should, in theory, pressurize when air is applied to the hollow crankshaft. This should be the case but this thing leaks like a sieve! A great deal of air is escaping through the rear bearing, hind-site being 20-20, I should have used sealed bearings as opposed to open bearings. I'm thinking I will need to add an oil seal at the rear of the engine to seal where the crankshaft protrudes. This should be simple enough. Don”t know what other leaks I'll discover.
I've started on the ignition system. Here again the “Le Crâig” is departing from the full size. The full size uses a magneto, attached to the rear of the engine and is driven by an internal spur gear. I'm not going to even attempt to make a magneto the size of a small spool of thread. I'm going to use an external spur gear, attached to the engine case, and have that gear drive an auxiliary shaft on the engine stand that will have a timing cam driving a set of standard points. With the timing cam making three rotations for every two of the engine case; and with three lobes on the timing cam, I should get the nine ignition pulses I need to fire all the cylinders with the appropriate timing.
So, the first order of business is to fabricate the drive gear attached to the engine case. Below I've completed the gear blank.
(https://i.postimg.cc/282QqdKs/20220815-134421.jpg)
I needed to make a jig to hold the gear blank while the gear teeth are cut. Below is a photo of the jig.
(https://i.postimg.cc/HWQDCnhc/20220815-134433.jpg)
Below: a photo of the gear blank mounted in the jig.
(https://i.postimg.cc/jdmjkLwW/20220815-134932.jpg)
With the day waning, this is all I'm going to accomplish today. Tomorrow morning is occupied with my weekly service project, and I'm dedicating the afternoon to loading the car for the trip to the Rough and Tumble Engineers Association show starting Wednesday. If you're planning on attending, please look me up and say 'hi'. I should be in the model building most times.
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Nice work as usual Craig. I plan on being at R&T Friday, I’ll stop by and say hi.
-Bob
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Per: haven't decided completely on castor oil, that was a good lubricant back then; but oils have come a long way.
Oh, I know .... it was a bit of a Tongue in Cheek comment - especially when you consider the Famous Side Effects of using Castor Oil ;D
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Per: haven't decided completely on castor oil, that was a good lubricant back then; but oils have come a long way.
Oh, I know .... it was a bit of a Tongue in Cheek comment - especially when you consider the Famous Side Effects of using Castor Oil ;D
A-Hah! So you would have me running to the jiffy-John :toilet_claw:
I’ll remember that Per. :ROFL:
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Quote from: Admiral_dk on August 15, 2022, 11:29:20 PM
Quote
Per: haven't decided completely on castor oil, that was a good lubricant back then; but oils have come a long way.
Oh, I know .... it was a bit of a Tongue in Cheek comment - especially when you consider the Famous Side Effects of using Castor Oil ;D
A-Hah! So you would have me running to the jiffy-John :toilet_claw:
I’ll remember that Per. :ROFL:
I wasn't hoping for you to 'Loose Your Dignity' so to speak - though that would be very much in line with what the Pilots often experienced .... but it is really one of those Classic Engines, 'that spread the stuff all over the suroundings' - or so I'm told.
Even with modern Oils it will still throw it around - so do not expect to be clean afterwards + think about what to wear.
Per
ps still looking forward to see the Video, when you get the last details ready.
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Even with modern Oils it will still throw it around - so do not expect to be clean afterwards + think about what to wear.
Per
Craig,
Your best bet is to always stay on the propeller side of the engine when it's running. :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Mike
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I've been working as a hydraulics technician for the last months here at work...I know all about getting oil everywhere...gah! :wallbang:
Regarding ignition...the cam will rotate at 1/2 engine speed I assume...and trip a set of non-rotating points to fire the also non-rotating ignition coil? And then a coil wire will connect to a distributor of sorts (I'm imagining a set of distributor-type contacts arrayed around the back of the engine, with individual wires running up to the spark plugs on the cylinders)? Need to scroll back to your drawings...
:cheers: :popcorn:
edit: ok, wow. Just went back and looked again at your drawings and models...and flipped through the first 5 or 10 screenloads of work...holy smokes this has come a long way. And remembering to myself that these things were originally built in the days of pencil and ink drawings, and manual mills and lathes. I was bending tubing for the hydraulics I mentioned, and screwed up twice on one fairly complex tube run with multiple bends (bent the final run of tubing 180 degrees from where it should have been - start over). And yes, my username is apt... Point being, those old timers could hold a 3d representation of what they wanted in their heads, of such complex mechanisms as a 3-layer slipper bearing and inside-out rotating gearsets, and pushme-pullyou rods. Yeesh. I stand in awe, Craig, and hold those old timers in very high regard as well.
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Thanks for the comments, and thanks for taking the time to stop by.
Even with modern Oils it will still throw it around - so do not expect to be clean afterwards + think about what to wear.
Per
Years ago, at our 1/8th size train run I had a lady want to board wearing a fluffy white blouse. My loco, like everyone else's blows steam oil out the stack and those riding in the consist will pick-up the droplets. I explained this to her, she said it was ok, but her blouse had dark splotchy dots on it when she exited. ::)
Craig,
Your best bet is to always stay on the propeller side of the engine when it's running. :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Mike
Kinda hard to do Mike with the controls behind the engine. I'd rather suffer the oil than try to reach around the propeller. ;D I'll be sure to wear a scarf, so I can wipe the oil from my goggles! :lolb:
I ... hold those old timers in very high regard as well.
There are a few parts on the full size that would have been difficult, if not impossible, for me to make in my shop, equipped as it currently is.
Sorry for the delay in posting. I got back from the Rough and Tumble show, (great to meet those who stopped by and found me), and I had some cleaning to do with the Otto & Langens (the acetylene leaves a carbon residue that needs cleaned out of the cylinder). Also, two of the engines were not running well by the end of the show and they needed some adjustments/repairs.
That completed, the wife had planned a beach vacation with the children and grandchild, so we were off to the beach for a while (have I told you how I HATE the beach?). :Mad:
Back home now with everything back to normal; hoping progress can proceed again on the LeRhône.
I received the piece of delrin with which I've made the distributor disk you see at the rear of the engine in the photo below. I still need to make the distributor "buttons" that will serve as contacts.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Cx6z2d1q/20220829-161256.jpg)
Ben, you were near right, the breaker shaft will rotate at 3/2 the speed of the engine case; making three revolutions for every two of the engine case. With three lobes on the breaker cam I'll get the nine ignition pulses from a set of points for every two revolutions of the engine case. I'll use high tension ignition with a coil to create the spark.
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Not seeing the Delrin distributor disk :headscratch: ...but that will become clearer as you move along I'm sure.
edit: Oh wait, you mean that thing that looks like a pipe flange, right up next to the support strut? Yeesh, I thought that was the engine mount. :Doh:
3/2 speed...3-lobe cam...gives 9/2 ignition firings...ok makes sense. I think. :shrug: :noidea: :Jester:
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Thanks as always for the comments, thanks also for taking the time to stop by.
A minor setback; :thinking: I went to cut the 51 tooth gear that mounts to the rear of the engine to drive the timing cam only to find-out that my dividing head is not equipped to divide a circle into 51 even divisions. :facepalm: Looking at the chart, it can deal with from three to fifty divisions without a gap, the first gap appears with 51 divisions and then there are sporadic gaps above that number. Lesson learned: :old: when you design a gear train and plan to cut the gears yourself; make sure your equipment is capable of producing the gears you've planned to make. :happyreader:
This is not a show stopper; If I add three teeth to the drive gear (51 up to 54), and two teeth to the timing gear (34 up to 36); I still keep the 3 to 2 ratio I need. Of course this changes the pitch diameter of the gears so the gear blank I made a few posts up thread is too small now; also, the engine stand that has already been prepared for the timing shaft now has the mount holes for the timing shaft at the wrong location so I'll need to make new uprights for the engine stand as well.
Live and Learn... the hard way.
With a new gear blank, I'm now cutting the 54 tooth ignition drive gear that attaches to the rear of the engine case.
(https://i.postimg.cc/hPRWKsfN/20220905-125638.jpg)
a view of the completed gear.
(https://i.postimg.cc/CL7v9sDG/20220905-132655.jpg)
and a view of the gear mounted to the rear of the engine.
(https://i.postimg.cc/WbN8mqKh/20220905-140942.jpg)
I'm going to make the distribution “buttons” that attach to the distributor disk next.
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Nice recovery from the no. of teeth problem, and the sparkalator looks great! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Bummer of a setback there, Craig. but you didn't let it stop you for long! I usually use a rotary table when cutting a gear so you can divide that into almost anything. But your solution is great and probably easier in the long run.
Nice looking gear for sure!
Kim
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Ugh...yeah, 51 being a prime, it would be tough finding a divider to do it directly. Good that you have a fix for it and pressing on... :popcorn: :ThumbsUp:
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CNR, Kim, and Ben; thanks for your comments. Thanks also for everyone for taking the time ot stop by.
Work continued on the “sparkalator”. I got the nine distributor buttons made
(https://i.postimg.cc/jST5JGWV/20220906-141556.jpg)
and installed
(https://i.postimg.cc/LXLwf0Y7/20220906-141747.jpg)
Probably turn my attention next to re-making the stand uprights.
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Neat way to make the distributor function. I've seen electric motors that put magnets around in a circle like that.
:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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The latest Parts look good Graig :ThumbsUp:
.... but I keep getting naging thoughts when I look at the Assembled picture ;
How big is the distance from the Teeth to the Buttons ..????
You don't want the Sparks to Jumo to the Gearwheel instead of inside the Combustionchamber ....
Per
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I had that thought too, Per. But if the distributor is actually a wiper making contact with the buttons, it might be ok?
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The distance between the buttons and the gear is significantly larger than a spark plug gap. Also, the ignition pulse should come when the wiper is in contact with the button. I’m pretty sure I’ll be ok.
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Thanks for the comments and also, thanks for stopping by to see the progress.
The past two days were spent re-making the stand uprights and then making the timing gear and shaft. No photos of re-making the stand, but below is a photo of the timing gear.
(https://i.postimg.cc/4dJx9YT2/20220908-135338.jpg)
and then, a few photos of it installed in the engine stand.
(https://i.postimg.cc/V6FKLVY0/20220908-140633.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/8P3jsdPZ/20220908-140638.jpg)
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Been in and out with work and all Craig....It's coming along nicely!!
Dave
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Nice! It's really coming together! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :cheers:
So...cam and points, coil, spark wires, battery, carburetor...castor oil and gasoline...fire extinguisher and phone with emergency services on speed dial...what else am I missing? Crusty mechanic and pilot with a scarf I assume are optional? I think you mentioned some fine tuning of valve timing yet to be done....
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Thanks for the comments. Thanks also for stopping by.
Ben: For sure the emergency phone number on speed dial. :insane: As a kid, I had enough fingers whacked with the small airplane engines. :cussing: Hopefully it doesn't come to that with this one; I might need to spend the time while the ambulance arrives searching for finger parts in the grass. :ROFL:
I finished the ignition cam and got it installed on the engine mount, as well as the points. A few photos below.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sD2FLvmk/20220909-162958.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/529hZj3c/20220909-162951.jpg)
Now, as Ben inferred..... I need to dis-assemble the front of the engine, at least to where I can view the crankshaft, and permanently mount the crankshaft to the stand where the crankshaft throw is straight up. Then, pin the crankshaft to the stand and re-assemble one last time, checking the valve timing.
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Thanks for stopping by.
Not the best of news to relate today. I removed the front cover of the engine case in order to permanently locate the crankshaft in it's permanent position, and was greeted with this.
(https://i.postimg.cc/j5fKCpxY/20220911-124244.jpg)
Two of the ball bearings I use as rollers on the cam rockers had shattered. I'd like to think I can just replace the broken ball bearings (I bought a few extra) and “hope” it all goes away, but you and I know that if I lost two with just “normal” revolution of the engine, imagine what will happen when the thing starts running.
I'm looking at a two fold problem.
Firstly, I need to recover ALL the broken parts of the bearings (the balls in the bearings are .024 inches in diameter and I can't seem to find even one of them). I'm probably looking at a fairly complete disassembly of the engine; all those parts I so carefully secured with blue Locktite.
Secondly, I'll need to re-design and make a more robust cam system; this means new rockers and cam disks; lots of re-design and re-work.
It's a bummer for sure, but then, I'm in new ground with this engine (for me at least) and I can't expect all my ideas to be completely free of problems. I'll keep you posted, but it will probably be a while.
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Hello Craig,
Yep, a bummer for sure. Not a nice thing to find. :ThumbsDown: :ThumbsDown:
As well as clearing out all the debris, you need a get clear understanding of why it happened.
It's difficult to judge from just the one photo, however I would be suspicious of forward/ aft movement of the cam ring (either during assembly or when turning the engine over by hand) somehow, striking the edge of those roller bearings. I don't think the normal outward pressure of the cam on the rollers would cause that sort of damage. I may be wrong, your closer to the action than I am.
Good luck for a quick fix
Mike
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Sorry to hear about this setback Craig. Good luck on parts retrieval and the rework. :cheers:
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Oh man what a bummer .... (there could go in a lot of not so nice words here - but we are all different) ....
Only real consolation I can think of - Thank God that it wasn't running at full Power when it happened ....
... as that could have been a Major Disaster off Smashed Parts - Not to mention Flying Debris.
I think that Mikes suggestion is a very possible explanation (but off cause not the only one) .... :thinking:
It's a good thing that you usually soldier on til a working solution is found.
Best wishes
Per
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Oh my, not the best of news is right. I know you are up to the challenge though, Craig. You will get it sorted out and end up with an improved design.
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Rats! That kind of thing is never fun to find! :facepalm2:
Very sorry for the setback here.
But at least you found it and can now do something about it. I'm confident you'll get it all sorted, and I'm excited to follow along and see how you resolve the situation.
Best of luck, Craig! This is a beautiful engine and will be even more beautiful when you get past this issue! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Kim
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I used a miniature ball race (6mm OD 2mm bore) as the cam follower for the injection pump on the 2 stroke diesel. After having several shatter I replaced it with a bronze roller on a hardened silver steel shaft. This started to spread after some running time and I am now using a case hardened steel roller.
I hope you can find a good solution for your engine.
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a real disappointment with this failure, and good luck for the reworking !
these little bearings don't seem man enough to be used like this, they won't support lateral effort or play, why not use just plain hardened rockers on cams ?
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Ooof. Not fun. Recovering bits might be helped using a magnet on a stick, but taking the engine apart to make sure is really the right thing to do.
As Snoopy would say, "Rats!". It was looking good for a run-up soon; but as others said, better to find that problem now than when running up to full speed. Hopefully no major damage to the cams, rods and rockers occurred, at least not to those parts you aren't planning to rework anyway.
I know it's gonna work out, Craig, you got this. :popcorn:
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Just a suggestion to try, based on others' inputs: maybe a plain cast iron bush made to same dims as the failed ball bearings? a little piece of Meehanite or Durabar iron would be inexpensive to try. It will run fine on a steel shaft, the harder the shaft is, the better. Cast iron has high strength in compression. After fitting whatever new bushes you end up with i'd suggest several hours of running turning it with an external electric drive to just make sure all is well with the new parts under load at close to running speed. Good luck! :cheers:
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I thank all of you for your support and commiseration. Thanks also for just stopping by to see the latest developments.
I've spent the last few days in a funk, listening to Mozart's Requiem and other dreary music; but it's time to move on. Mike; I'd like to think that you are on to something but the cam ring is fixed to the engine case; no way it can move.
I had one of the valve rockers silver solder joint come apart; probably because the original soldering job was inadequate. I soldered the joint back together and in doing so, seized the valve rocker shaft in the mount. I never thought to look, so when the engine turned over the push rod couldn't move and the bearing took the brunt of the forces; scratch one bearing.
I can't account for the other but they only take a maximum load of a few pounds and I suspect something got a little tight and that's all it took to overload the bearing.
I've redesigned the cam rockers and cam disks. I'll need to make new cam rockers and cam disks; but everything else can be saved. Below is a rendering of the original design:
(https://i.postimg.cc/wTwL77kL/Old-Cam-Rockers.jpg)
And following: a rendering of the new design. Things are designed a bit more robust and I'm thinking with this new design; the leverage will be working on favor of the cam rockers as opposed to against them. I also designed in a bit more valve movement; the initially designed movement was barely adequate.
(https://i.postimg.cc/50tM9K9w/New-Design.jpg)
The rollers on the cam rockers are now ¼ inch in diameter (as opposed to 5/32 inch in the old design). I haven't decided to get some ¼ inch ball bearings to use as rollers or just make some rollers out of steel/brass.
As you can see below, I have a start on some new cam disks. These are just turned to the major diameters, the cam profiling is to follow:
(https://i.postimg.cc/W3DT6fRs/20220916-145840.jpg)
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Looks much more robust! :cheers:
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We al pray that you have found a better solution and that it will stand the test of time :cheers:
Per
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The attachment in my previous reply seems to be causing a blank, white browser screen. Not sure if this reply will be visible.
Just a thought: On the originals the roller only touches one cam or the other, with several millimeters gap between the two. It looks as if you have both rollers touching, or nearly so, the exhaust and inlet cam. It might be that at certain points you are loading your rocker arm from both cam flanks simultaneously, if ever so slightly. There may be enough give or flex that the stiffness is hidden in with the rest of the friction from the rings that you do not notice it, but once you start to spin it at speed it begins to hammer itself into destruction.
Also, the original did not use ball bearings in this location, but bronze bushes. It may be your miniature ball bearings do not like getting slapped by the cam flanks, even though the relative speed is reduced by the valve train gear reduction. Proper cam rollers tend to have more balls than a pure radial bearing. The other similar thought is the races on the miniature ball bearings are very thin and intended to be supported in a housing. When used as a cam roller, the outer race might be deflected out of round when it contacts the cam flank and making life very short for the bearing balls. Again, cam rollers tend to have proportionally heavy outer races. You are limited by the size of the miniature bearings available; they are what they are. If more clearance with the cam is not the solution, you might be better of switching to plain bearings.
-Doug
Edit by Jo: All Fixed ;)
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Thanks for stopping by, a BIG thanks to Jo for “fixing” this thread!!! :pinkelephant:
CNR, Per, and Doug; thanks for your comments.
Doug: you've been looking after me, ever since the beginning of this thread when I was planning to build an upside-down, backward, who knows what, :shrug: till you showed me the errors of my ways. Looks like you've done it again. OF COURSE a ball bearing is not a roller. A ball bearing is designed to be pressed into a machined recess, where the recess itself provides support for the outer race. I was thinking the ball bearing would be like a roller skate wheel; of course it won't be unless it is designed specifically as a roller. And Mike: this is probably the explanation for which you and I were seeking.
Looks like I'll be making my own rollers.
Finished the input and exhaust cam disks, below is a photo. I'm sure these will see a lot more filing attention. Doug mentioned that my tolerances might be too tight, and I suspect that is the case. Still, it's easier to file a little material away to establish clearances; can't add material when tolerances are too open.
(https://i.postimg.cc/GtpLPSpV/20220919-110427.jpg)
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Changes on the fly aside, they always happen on big projects, I am still flabbergasted by this engine. Partly that they developed it in the first place, partly on how your build is going. Keep plugging away!
:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :cheers:
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I'm excited to see your LaRhone working, Craig, and I'm sure it will soon!
Those cams remind me of the little gizmos that fit in my Aunt's fancy sewing machine when I was young. you could change these little disks that looked like that to have the machine make different fancy stitch patterns! :Lol:
Kim
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Its looking good Craig 8)
Those cams remind me of the little gizmos that fit in my Aunt's fancy sewing machine when I was young. you could change these little disks that looked like that to have the machine make different fancy stitch patterns! :Lol:
Kim
Some of us still have one of those ::) Each disc can have two cams on it that alters the sewing machine's needle position front to back or side to side. Add that to the movement of the little teeth under the fabric and you can do all sorts of patterns with each cam.
Back to Craig's Le Rhone :popcorn:
Jo
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Yes! Exactly what I remember, Jo! I think the new sewing machines do it all with microchips these days. No more cams. Ah... the digital age, eh?
Kim
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Sounds like you are back on track, Craig!
:popcorn: :ThumbsUp:
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Looks like you have a solution :) :) :wine1:
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Chris, CNR, Kim, Jo, Ben, and Roger; thanks for your comments. Thanks also for everyone who take the time to stop by.
Jo: my Mom had one of those machines too. She made a lot of dresses for my daughter back when she was small. Jessie had a teddy bear, and she made a dress for my wife, my daughter, and the teddy bear; all the same material and the same design.
Didn't find a photo of all three, but here's a photo of my daughter, taken many years ago with her teddy.
(https://i.postimg.cc/0rgvjn9H/scan0001-1.jpg)
I've made the first of the “new” cam rockers. These required a lot more filing to finish that the previous ones; they may be a bit larger, but the design doesn't lend itself to finishing on the mill like the previous ones.
(https://i.postimg.cc/gk8BdNR6/20220920-175347.jpg)
Here you see one mounted to the engine case. Still need to make the cam rollers and shoulder bolts that attach them to the rockers.
(https://i.postimg.cc/vmBz1z1h/20220920-175230.jpg)
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You took a fall but are back in the saddle! Way to go. And that's a very cute pic of your daughter. :ThumbsUp:
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Crossed fingers here - as I hope that you have found the better solution and will be revarded for it :cheers:
Per
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No fall recorded, just the usual tweaking needing to be done in R+D! :zap: She'll be firing on all 9 in short order. :popcorn:
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Ron, Per, Ben, and everyone else who is hanging with me through this venerable slog.... I suspect we'll get there... eventually.
The more I looked at the cam disks in my previous post, the more I disliked them. The approach ramp was way too steep, and though the rollers on the cam rockers would climb them; I could tell they weren't happy about it. I thought another re-design was in order- making the ramps a bit less severe. I needed to remake the cam disks to do this because I still needed the duration of the valve opening to be correct.
Below, you see the “new new new new.... new :Lol:” cam disk design. The rollers on the can rockers are really happy with this new arrangement; they climb the ramps easily and with no potential binding.
(https://i.postimg.cc/LXprjRwf/20220927-143427.jpg)
Now, to get busy re-making the eight remaining cam rocker assemblies.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Great to
hear See a positive Result posted by you Craig :ThumbsUp:
Sounds like perserverance pays off again :) :cheers:
I have done a small number of maintanace things on the outside off my house durring the last month (or so) and I can't count the number off times I had to change my approch / ideas on 'How-To' .... :facepalm: ... (it should have been so simple).
Per
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Excellent! After the rocker assemblies, what is left to make?
:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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As stated previously, this is R+D at its finest. Ok, forensic R+D, but still... :popcorn:
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Looks great Craigh interesting design!
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CNR, Per,Chris,Ben, & Alex; thanks for your comments. Thanks to everyone for just taking the time to stop by.
Chris; just ignition and carburetion.
I just looked back at the first post on this thread, dated early September last year. Back then, if anyone had told me I'd still be working on this model over a year hence, I'd have thought them crazy. This model has had it's challenges but I'm determined to persevere to the conclusion, might still be a while.
I'm slowly working through the “new, new” cam rockers; currently working on number five or nine. So you have something to see with this thread and not think I've silently abandoned the project, I'm going to give you the details of making one of these things. It seems to take about a good day to make the rocker and then another day to make the rollers and shoulder bolts; then fit them to the engine assembly.
Once again, I finish a rocker assembly, remove it from the engine and set it aside. I want to have as much control as possible on each rocker assembly regarding fit and possible binding and I can't really gauge the fit with all the other rockers in place.
So you can see where I'm headed, I give you a rendering from Alibre of the designed part
(https://i.postimg.cc/jjpHyMQQ/Cam-Rocker.jpg)
After trying several fabrication methods, I've settled on the one I'll show you. It has it's issues, but not as many as the others I've tried. As I shape the part it seems to “grow” out of the end of this piece of steel.
Below I'm just getting started. Here I've drilled the .156 inch center hole. The off-center 1/4 inch hole was made with an end mill. Can't drill it with it partially off the work piece.
(https://i.postimg.cc/QCwmnjcw/20221008-153257.jpg)
Next, I drilled and tapped the threaded holes in which the shoulder bolts that retain the cam rollers will attach to the part.
(https://i.postimg.cc/FKTBV5n5/20221008-154031.jpg)
Using my rotary milling head, I machined the two arcs that define the top and bottom edges of the roller arms.
(https://i.postimg.cc/y8BpqYMC/20221008-160008.jpg)
And then, rounded off the ends of the roller arms.
(https://i.postimg.cc/jdhQ76FB/20221008-160550.jpg)
Maybe a few of you folks havn't seen a rotary milling head? It attaches to the spindle of the vertical mill and cuts arcs around the center of the spindle. This is probably the most useful addition I've made to my Bridgeport mill.
(https://i.postimg.cc/B6D2Q2FY/20221008-160609.jpg)
A view of the part so far.... but as I look at it I realize I've missed a step. I need to cut the 5/16th inch diameter shoulder over the center hole. Good thing I saw that before I went much further. The part might have been hard to hold later on.
(https://i.postimg.cc/kMQW0FqD/20221008-160910.jpg)
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Looking good! You are lucky to have the Volstro unit. They are getting scarce. :cheers:
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Following along...looks good so far. Do you leave the rotary head attached most/all of the time, or do you remove it to perform standard x-y milling tasks?
:popcorn: :cheers:
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CNR & Ben, thanks for comments and interest. Thanks also for everyone taking the time to stop by.
Ben: I could (I suspect) have the Volstro on the mill to do X/Y milling, but I remove it. It's just easier to see what's going on. This does mean that I need to attach it and remove it twice for each cam rocker. The hard part is running the table up and down. Sure could use one of one those Z-axis power feeds. :) I 'could' use the mill drill for the standard milling, but I'd rather use the big mill as it's sturdier and does better work.
Continuing along from my last post.... Here I'm playing catch-up, performing the milling operation I forgot to do up post while I had the set-up.
(https://i.postimg.cc/c1BC0h4x/1.jpg)
Moving on to the lathe for the next operation. I needed to center the work in the 4-jaw chuck before commencing the turning operation.
(https://i.postimg.cc/50T8qmTQ/2.jpg)
Here I'm using a parting tool, ground flat, to remove the center material.
(https://i.postimg.cc/PJ1KCcJ5/3.jpg)
Using my cut-off saw to remove the piece part from the stock.
(https://i.postimg.cc/j2qQjjpZ/4.jpg)
Delicate work here. I'm holding the piece in the mill chuck while I reduce the piece to it's final thickness. Not much stock available to hold the piece so I'm removing about ten thousandths per pass.
(https://i.postimg.cc/FF23qDRT/5.jpg)
This side also needs a relief cut at the center mount point.
(https://i.postimg.cc/6q9J5d6g/6.jpg)
While I have the piece securely held in the mill; I'm drilling out the two termination points for the slider.
(https://i.postimg.cc/QCwpXqhJ/7.jpg)
Here I've again mounted the rotary milling head to the mill and am forming the channel for the slider as well as shaping the outside of the slider arm.
(https://i.postimg.cc/bry6DPDN/8.jpg)
Nearly all the milling done at this point.
(https://i.postimg.cc/fRqj5X3s/9.jpg)
And after some filing and final shaping the cam rocker looks as below.
(https://i.postimg.cc/xThLzQBj/10.jpg)
One final milling operation. I need to provide clearance for the exhaust cam disk lobes as they pass through the bottom of this part. I'm hesitant to remove too much material as this weakens the part. I tend to be on the conservative side, which means that after first assembly to the engine the cam lobes usually drag on the bottom of the rocker, requiring me to dis-assemble, file away a bit more material, and then re-assemble.
(https://i.postimg.cc/C15j8KM1/11.jpg)
The finished cam rocker.
(https://i.postimg.cc/JhGNDnzh/12.jpg)
Moving on to the cam rocker rollers. Here I'm using a piece of ¼ inch cold rolled steel and am drilling and then reaming the center to accept the shoulder bolt that attaches it to the cam rocker.
(https://i.postimg.cc/hPQRr8Z8/13.jpg)
Parting the finished roller from the stock.
(https://i.postimg.cc/2S2pjH1D/14.jpg)
Moving on the the shoulder bolts. I'm starting with 3/16 inch brass hex stock. I've shaped and then threaded the end of the bolt with a 4-40 die; then formed the shoulder.
(https://i.postimg.cc/bJFffn0p/15.jpg)
The proof is in the fit. I want the roller to fit the cam rocker snugly, but with no binding.
(https://i.postimg.cc/hGk2Kx1n/16.jpg)
Here I'm parting the finished shoulder bolt off the stock.
(https://i.postimg.cc/9FQY5JHT/17.jpg)
Cam rocker number 5, fitted to the engine. I'm a bit past the mid-way point. Five done and four yet to make.
(https://i.postimg.cc/9Fv0tYVZ/18.jpg)
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Lots of delicate and precise work, watching along here!
:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Lots of delicate and precise work, watching along here!
:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Agreed - a lot of work in some rather tiny parts :praise2: :cheers:
Per
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:Love:
:cheers:
Don
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Looking very nice Craig!
Dave
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Wow. I forget how small and delicate the parts are until I see them machined. That skim cut to finish the .058 slider rail would have a high pucker factor for this novice machinist. The finished part does look a bit more stout than the earlier version, here's hoping we see it up and running soon!
:popcorn:
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Chris, Per, Don, Dave, CNR, Ben; thanks for your comments. Thanks also for those taking the time to stop by.
It's been a long haul... but the cam rockers are in and functioning. All valves operate at the right intervals. The rocker movement is quite free so I'm hoping I'm past any more roller failures and valve timing issues.
(https://i.postimg.cc/fbpk2ghz/20221027-164601.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/y8WVMXjk/20221027-164617.jpg)
looking forward.... I'll need to verify that the crankcase is sealed so that the engine can draw fuel/air. Before I reinstall the intake tubes I'm thinking of making some covers that I can use to seal the opening at the crankcase where the intake tubes connect. Once I've verified that the crankcase is sealed; I can install the intake tubes one-by-one and fix any leaks as I identify them.
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Stunning.
I'm just imagining the large clock you could make based on that shape - 12 cylinder radial with numbers on the cylinder caps, gas powered, 60 rpm for second hand, gearing down to minute/hour hands...
Okay, enough of that, back to watching your build!
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Engine's looking great Craig! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Chris - re the 12 cyl engine / clock idea - I don't even like changing the AA batteries in our current clocks - let alone having to change 12 or 24 spark plugs, and total loss oiling system spraying on the dining room tablecloth.....would not go over big! (but a fine idea for a shop clock) :Lol:
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Engine's looking great Craig! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Chris - re the 12 cyl engine / clock idea - I don't even like changing the AA batteries in our current clocks - let alone having to change 12 or 24 spark plugs, and total loss oiling system spraying on the dining room tablecloth.....would not go over big! (but a fine idea for a shop clock) :Lol:
:lolb:
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Looking good :praise2: :praise2: Radials are complicated ::)
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Great that you got to this point :praise2:
Almost feel that it is a shame to close the Crankcase - but come to think about it - you can't see the movements of the rockers when the Engine spins :insane: :Doh: oh well - still looking forward to se it run when you get to that :cheers:
Per
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Thanks for the responses; thanks also for your taking the time to stop by.
Not much to report. I've been working toward sealing the crankcase, and as I find leaks, I address them.
I decided to complete the ignition system. I thought making the spark plug wires would be a daunting task, but it turned out to be easy - p easy. The spring part was formed on the lathe, winding it as I'd none numerous springs in the past. The ends were just wound around a rod and folded over.
(https://i.postimg.cc/tRPDsTYL/20221109-123607.jpg)
A view of the rear of the engine with the spark plug wires attached.
(https://i.postimg.cc/3xWtJZpZ/20221110-160909.jpg)
With a functional ignition system I thought I'd see if the engine could show some signs of life. I don't have a carburetion system yet, but the original was stared by priming the cylinders through the exhaust port. I've clamped the engine to my hydraulic table (no real reason for using a hydraulic table other than it was handy).
Sometimes you need to laugh. A friend commented that he didn't think that was a good idea because when the engine started I'd need to chase it across the shop before it ran into something. With just a prime, I doubt it would spin up much; but, personally, I'd be delighted if I needed to chase it.
(https://i.postimg.cc/kMcsQHvc/20221110-161019.jpg)
I've turned it over a few times and... well... nothing... nada... dead as a stump. Something else I'll need to track down.
With the winter weather setting in, the posts may become somewhat more infrequent since my shop isn't heated (other that space heaters). When I have something to report, I'll let you know..
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I'll send over some big shop elves to help hold the table from leaving the shop when the engine starts... Though I'd suggest adding some ropes to the bench, those elves are so easily distracted...
Amazing progress on this engine, looking forward to hearing the first pops from it (hopefully not followed by 'where did the engine go, it was Right Here!' )
:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Sorry it didn't do its thing but I'm sure you'll figure it out. It really is a nice-looking engine! And it's quite exciting that you've gotten to the point where you CAN give it a go.
With the sparkplug wires being bare like that, seems like a real shock hazard! Be careful!
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Glad you are trying to get it to run :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: There are so many little details involved that can go wrong ::) Waiting for the first pops :wine1:
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What a Beauty and all dressed up with a big Prop :praise2: :praise2:
Sorry to hear that you had no Pops - but I'm sure you will solve this too :cheers:
Agree with Chris - Better secure the Table so it can't move - even just turning could bring you into harms way (that big Prop) - Way too Quickly :hammerbash:
Per
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Hello Craig,
That looks like a big purposeful engine. Wait until you have the carburetor system fully installed and you have checked everything for the umpteeth time and I am sure it will reward you.
I fully agree with you and everyone, You need to have the running stand (Hydraulic table, Workmate or whatever) anchored firmly into the ground at the back end. I have found out the hard way that even my small Siedel five cylinder radial was able to tip my Workmate over. I have the scars, stitches and ambulance ride to confirm the need for a ground anchor at the rear of the running stand.
Cheers
Mike
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Forty plus years ago, my auto mechanics instructor always told my class that if an engine had fuel, air, compression, and it got spark at the right time - then it was gonna run. Maybe not run well, but it was gonna run.
Don
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Wow, you take a month's vacation and look what happens. Looking great, Craig!
Wondering why the spring coil on the spark plug wires? Wouldn't want them whipping in the breeze and grounding on the cylinders...though I suppose you made them taut enough so that won't happen...
:cheers:
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Thanks for the comments and encouragement; thanks also for taking the time to stop by.
Well, I'd like to report that I didn't follow the advice given by many of you but just left the thing clamped to the hydraulic table, and after more fiddeling it started, ran out the shop door and across the lawn, and I had to go chase it down but.... alas... not so.
Still can't get as much as a pop from it.
I've come to the conclusion that though the compression seems adequate it probably isn't good enough. The engine still turns over quite stiffly and will do so until the rings wear in. Were it a single cylinder engine, i'd load the cylinder with oil and spin it over with a drill to start it. Once it ran for a few minutes and the rings seated it would have better compression and it would start by hand. With this engine, I can't do that and when propping it by hand it's turning over much slower than one of my single cylinder engines would when I pull the flywheel over.
The only next step I can see to do is to remove each cylinder and piston in turn, make a single cylinder engine frame by adding crankshaft, camshaft, pushrods, and carburetor; mount the cylinder, head, and piston to this frame; and run this "engine" to 'wear in' the individual rings. This represents a substancial amount of work (like building another engine) and I'm going to ponder on this a while before I take that task on.
So.... this project is going to be shelved for a while because, basically, I'm tired working on it and need something new. It's getting where I almost hate to go out to the shop. No enjoyment left and this hobby is supposed to be fun. Maybe after a rest from it I'll get some new ideas and drag it out again.... maybe I won't.
Thanks for sticking with me. It's been a challenging build. Sorry to disappoint many of you.
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I think I understand how you feel. But even if it never runs it's a fascinating engine and a lovely piece of design and machining work. Thank you for sharing the build; I've learned from it and have enjoyed every post.
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+1 on what Ron said! no disappointment at all, here. Look forward to the next installment whenever that might happen. :cheers: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
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This has been a brilliant build. I have watched with awe your progress. Truly sorry about it setting off without you.....could have been realy nasty :'( I can empathise with your need for a break. My few builds have been relatively simple but I still felt the need to put them aside for a bit and do something different. In my case restore a couple of motorbikes ::) Best Wishes for a happy return to shop. Terry
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Craig--I admire your machining capabilities, and I also understand that sometimes you just have to walk away. When you reach a point where you have tried everything you know, and nothing works, and there is nobody that you can really call for help, it is just horrible. Been there, done that!! Walk away---stay out of your shop for a while. The world will not end, and after a bit of a break you will come back with new and different ideas. That is a massive project and you have provided a lot of great entertainment to others with a common interest. Good luck, and cheers.----Brian
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That looks magnificent Craig! Im sure she'll run! Stick with it!
Dave
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Sorry to hear that Craig - but I can't help wondering if you put a wheel on instead of the prop and then drive that with a belt from a stationary motor, wouldn't do the trick :thinking:
No matter what - it is a magnificient build to be proud of :cheers:
Per
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I have never been sure about the rings/valves bedding in to get things to work. With diamond lapping of the bore and the of the valves (stainless steel valve in an aluminium head) I got over 30 bar (450 psi) compression on the first trial spin of my four-stroke diesel. The other engines I have built in this way have also been instant starters.
Give it a break for a while, measure some things and see where to go from there.
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"Rats!", as our champion Snoopy would say. Or, "Curses! Foiled again!". Or stronger, ":censored:".
I had a bunch of ideas (compression, spark, fuel, is there enough oil on the cylinder walls, but not too much...), but not being there to help, I doubt any of my ideas are useful - I'm sure you've thought of all my thoughts and other things as well, and already checked and/or dismissed them. As others said, let it sit awhile and do things that are more enjoyable, then go back in when you are ready and take another look, or build a drive belt setup like Per suggested for running it in. I've been out of my workshop for far too long now, too busy at work putting out fires, or finding other things that need doing (or are more pleasurable to do), so certainly will not throw stones about pausing this build.
Regardless, there is no disappointment at the effort expended thus far, it's been a great ride! Take care,
BenT
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Hi Craig, I have enjoyed your build from the start and share your disappointment at the first run attempt. However, if you imagined scenario had come about, I fear that it would not have ended happily.
I am in awe of your ability to design and build such a complex model so beautifully. I do hope though that coming back after a break and some background thought you will be rewarded with success.
I did hope that at least one cylinder would have given a few pops, so do wonder if there is a common element to all cylinders causing a problem, but you will get to your own analysis in due course.
Looking forward to the next of your amazing models.
MJM460