Model Engine Maker

Engines => From Kits/Castings => Topic started by: Jo on August 09, 2021, 03:55:05 PM

Title: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Jo on August 09, 2021, 03:55:05 PM: Back in 2001 my friend Anthony Mount brought along to the Guildford show a rather nice Vertical Concentric Hot Air Engine Bailey's Bee:

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/Bee.jpg)

Tony wrote up his build of his model later that year in Model Engineer and if anyone is interested his short write up starts in ME No 4155 page 270. The model was designed from the engraving in this advert:

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/advert~0.jpg)

I purchased these castings from Polly Models for under £300 the set including P&P but be aware they will have them made to order so will ask for a deposit and the castings will arrive a couple of months later :-\

As I wait for the paint to dry on the base of one of my other models prior to the hand over ::) We have commenced casting fondling:

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4335.JPG)

Unlike another of the Stirling models casting sets I have previously purchased from Polly's this one did not come with the stainless tube necessary for the displacer or the cylinder :wallbang: With these ordered from Fleabay I can start looking at the challenge of the bottom stand:

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4336.JPG)

Yes the legs curve/taper in every direction :toilet_claw: And if they are not all the same length the model will be lopsided :ShakeHead: As I do not own a CNC jig maker I am using the next best thing my cheap as chips printer to make a couple of wedges of the right shape to hold the casting:

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4337.JPG)

This could take a while :thinking:

Jo
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: propforward on August 09, 2021, 04:19:39 PM: It's a nice looking engine. I'm most curious about what you have contrived to hold the legs - those are challenging parts for sure.
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Alyn Foundry on August 09, 2021, 04:27:33 PM: Hi Jo.

Another hot air engine eh?

Whilst familiar with most castings I’m intrigued by the colour, what material are they done in?

Cheers Graham.
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Dave Otto on August 09, 2021, 04:33:49 PM: Looks like a fun one, I will be following along for sure!

Dave
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Jo on August 09, 2021, 04:39:11 PM: Yes another Hot air engine... While I wait for my magic tablets to start working again (they have been fiddling with the dose) I need nice easy builds ::)

Quote from: Alyn Foundry on August 09, 2021, 04:27:33 PM
Whilst familiar with most castings I’m intrigued by the colour, what material are they done in?

Other than the Flywheel which is Cast Iron, the Castings are all bronze. I think Polly's prefer to use the Bronze foundry as the foundry man delivers to the factory for them.

Jo
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Jasonb on August 09, 2021, 06:25:48 PM: They look nice crisp castings Jo, lets hope they are a good firm bronze and not too much at the soft gun metal end of the scale, looks like they have been sand blasted hence the uniform colour.

I'll have to dig out the old mags to see if Anthony soldered or screwed the legs into place and whether the legs cut a curve cut into them of thebase three flats :thinking:.
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Jo on August 09, 2021, 09:16:44 PM: Tony's drawings give both metric and imperial measurements and to quote Tony from the model engineer article : " I feel it is high time we stopped using imperial measurements". Drawings with two sets of measurements that are not interchangeable can be confusing :Doh: So we need to make some decisions and update the drawings to suit:

I will use BA threads where ever possible (as I have the taps/dies), these threads do not (always) use either full fraction imperial or whole metric diameters.

I shall use decimal metric measurements to the nearest 0.1mm (as that is what I was taught and my workshop is not sufficiently temperature controlled to go to 0.01mm measurements).

I am going to bias the build towards the materials/tooling to hand: But what does that mean? I have lots of 9.5mm diameter stainless (drive bars out of old printers ::) ) so I will probably use these instead of 9.53mm (3/8"). I will not use 5mm diameters as I want to use BA threads which matches the 3/16" or 4.76mm diameter bar I have. I will also use an imperial reamers if I don't have a suitable metric reamer and will adjust both the hole and the mating part to suit as I go along. Etc.

The 3D printer has nearly finished :thinking:

Jo
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Jo on August 10, 2021, 08:46:24 AM: I forgot yesterday to provide an example of these "dual measurement drawings" :facepalm: Sorry.

Attached is the flywheel drawing. As you can see it is 6" / 152mm diameter - the diameter does not matter. The width is either 0.5" or 13mm - the width does not matter. The bore is another matter: The two measurements for the bore are 0.375" (yes lovely decimal inches :ThumbsUp: not confusing fractions) or 9.5mm. The difference is 0.03mm. Not a lot? but enough to have a wobbly/loose flywheel.

If you recall I said I am working to 0.1mm as my workshop is not sufficiently temperature stable for greater accuracy of measurement. Whilst 0.1mm is more than acceptable for most bits, on items like flywheels they need to be machined to that much tighter fit. If you read the article you will see that Tony machined the Flywheel as the first item, I will be leaving it to one of the last and it will be done along with the crankshaft so I can achieve that nice fit ;) .

I can report that the two 3D printed wedges look like they will do the required job but I feel a bit of the brown stuff needs to be ~~butchered~~ shaped to make the final part of the support jig for the engine legs as the printing took ages :ShakeHead:

Jo
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Laurentic on August 10, 2021, 09:42:58 AM: "If you recall I said I am working to 0.1mm as my workshop is not sufficiently temperature stable".

That is an interesting comment, one to which I have not given any previous thought. 0.1mm is nigh on 0.004" - I am of an age when we all worked to thousands of an inch and I do still - and 4 thou seems a lot.

How temperature stable has a workshop to be to be able to work to better than 0.1mm? I ask out of interest as I have no real idea. My workshop is reasonably temperature stable in any given season of the year - it gets cold in winter but when I am working in there I heat it up to around 60-ish deg.F in real money, 15-17deg.C in new fangled foreign units, but it soon cools down back to ambient after - but it is not temperature stable to a constant throughout the year, I wonder how much affect that would have on parts made. :shrug:

Chris

PS - I was also wondering what the light coloured material was until you clarified that Jo - at first I thought that looks like a varient of that brown stuff, then thought, no way, that would be so out of character for Jo............
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Jo on August 10, 2021, 10:00:40 AM: If you want to do a temperature test then think about your freezer and normal summer temperature. I often put things in the freezer to shrink them and they grow when they warm up. Same goes for summer and winter machining in a workshop: If you pick up a cold micrometre and hold it in your hand it warms up to body temperature you can have a variation in measurement from the cold to the warm micrometre.

A bit of clarification: When I state measurements on drawings I am going to one decimal place... I am machining to normally 2 decimal places accepting that the accuracy on the second digit is subject to temperature variations both on the item and on the measuring device that has not been calibrated against a standard. I normally machine bits to fit i.e. I use the same uncalibrated measuring device to check the measurements between pieces and am not surprised if I change measuring device and measure again to find the last digit varies. The measurement between devices still holds to one decimal place. :)

Jo
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Jasonb on August 10, 2021, 10:22:03 AM: Yes, I think working to 0.1 is more than adequate at the design/drawing stage. In fact most of the time you can work to whole millimeters with the odd 0.5 on smaller items or when something that is a multiple of 5 overall needs a half measurement eg radius of a 35mm dia arc. 0.1mm increments only really come into it of very small items or when giving tapping sizes.

What you actually work to will be different to what's on a drawing, some parts you may be able to work to +/-0.25, others may require a tighter tollerence of say +/-0.01, others you just make one part using the other mating part as a gauge and who knows what the final dimension is provided it has the right "fit"

As to the flywheel bore then it would really have been better shown as 0.375" or 10mm so that easily available stock sizes could be used (though 9.5mm silver steel is a stock metric size) as no one really wants to turn down 10mm mild steel to 9.5mm over any length.. You would only really end up with a wobbly flywheel if you made parts mixing the two dimensions as to get a wobble you would have to make the flywheel to the imperial 0.375" and the crankshaft to the metric 9.5mm and that is something that should not be done. Also if Anthony was consistant and dimensioned the crankshaft as 0.375" or 9.5mm then so long as you used the same system for all parts the fit will be fine The other way round does give a nice press fit though ;)
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Laurentic on August 10, 2021, 02:46:23 PM: I think you hit the nail on the head with your statement Jo saying you machine parts to fit. I think that is what the vast majority of home model machinists do, they are not producing parts that have to be shipped to a customer far away that just HAS to fit on arrival, it just has to fit the part they themselves made.

The DRO on my mill amuses me, it reads out to five decimal places of an inch. Yes I know it is a function of the reading actually being metric and the DRO converting it, but it always amusing me, the thought that I might work to five decimal places, like in my dreams maybe but never in a milion years in real life!

I do know all about parts growing a tad just by being held in the hand for a quarter of an hour or whatever, just wondered what constituted, or was considered to be, a temperature stable workshop, how close would those limits have to be. An interesting thought!

Chris
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Jo on August 10, 2021, 04:37:05 PM: The third part of the jig still needs to be made. First draw round the inside of the casting:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4339.JPG)

Stick the pattern on some brown stuff :paranoia:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4340.JPG)

Shape to suit and check with casting:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4341.JPG)

Use three part jig to hold the casting while machining the underside of the leg flat, the top face and the edge:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4342.JPG)

Sitting the three together it is clear they each came from different patterns as the tops are all over the place :facepalm:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4344.JPG)

Before I do the tops I need the piece that joins them together. This is a ring of bronze with tapers on inside and outside that needs to be turned parallel:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4343.JPG)

Once I turn it round and hold it on the inside I will use old bit of coke can as packing to protect the Bronze ;)

Jo
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Roger B on August 10, 2021, 05:31:03 PM: Looks to be a fun build with all the usual casting challenges :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :) :wine1:
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: bent on August 11, 2021, 04:00:47 PM: Yes, different patterns apparently. There seems to be a lean/angular offset in two of them, wonder if it was intentional?
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Jo on August 11, 2021, 04:56:26 PM: Quote from: bent on August 11, 2021, 04:00:47 PM
There seems to be a lean/angular offset in two of them, wonder if it was intentional?

They are tapered so it is probably an optical illusion ;)

Before starting the fun bit :paranoia: I need to finish off that easy job of turning the ring:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4346.JPG)

Time to make the legs fit the ring. First job set up a boring head with a tip that is at 72mm diameter = the same as the ring outside dimension. Then mount up one leg vertically clamped hard against the bed and a vertical surface with a suitable piece of brown stuff as a packer. Find the centre of the leg, move the fly cutter (boring head) up to just touch the work:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4348.JPG)

Hang on... I need some consistency here :thinking: Lets find out how far in that flycutter needs to go so that I can get the same measurement on each leg. Start by measuring the offset:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4347.JPG)

Then knock up a sketch to see what the cut might look like:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/Flycutter_distance_calc.JPG)

Ok 101mm out for the cutter centre line looks about right so off we go again:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4349.JPG)

Does the cut look to be central on the leg :thinking: I'll just tweak it over a bit then continue on down/in and have a look at what it might look like with the ring in place:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4350.JPG)

I think that is ok so I can do the other two. What seems (was ::) ) hours later I have three legs ready for attaching to the ring:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4351.JPG)

But not today ;)

Jo
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Kim on August 11, 2021, 05:07:24 PM: Pretty interesting setup and procedure, Jo. Thanks for sharing.

The tripod and curved legs certainly make for some interesting machining!

Kim
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Admiral_dk on August 11, 2021, 09:38:47 PM: Another great show and tell about what to consider with castings :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Jo on August 12, 2021, 02:58:01 PM: Thanks Guys, another bodge and run about to come ::)

The three legs need to be attached to the ring. This means drilling some holes at the correct height and in the centre of the legs. So back on the mill, clamp up the leg, find the centre and drop down a little (the top of the leg is tapered)

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4355.JPG)

Drill the hole, then tap it to match the chosen cap head screw:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4358.JPG)

Repeat for other 2 legs. Then mount up the ring, find its centre

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4356.JPG)

and drill three holes round the outside at 120 degrees for the clearance size of the cap head thread.

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4357.JPG)

I bolted the three legs on and that short one :facepalm2: So I added (soft soldered) a 1mm packer under the foot and moved the hole in the ring up 1mm to make that leg taller:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4360.JPG)

It is still not perfect but early engines made out of castings never were so I'm calling that an "original feature" ;) Now to counter bore in those cap heads...

Jo
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: crueby on August 12, 2021, 04:11:44 PM: That tripod base is coming out great - excellent use of the clamping jigs.
:popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Jo on August 13, 2021, 01:31:28 PM: Not much exciting swarf making today :-\

I have been roughing out the air chamber and starting on the firebox. Both of these castings are large cup shaped items with lots of taper on all surfaces.

It is not exciting so I won't go into details or put the photo's inline (they are attached). You can see I have been using my chicken stick and a bearing as supports as these are big pieces and because it is gunmetal there is a risk of digging it :paranoia:

I am limited on how far I can go with these as Royal Snail has lost my 35mm Stainless tube :hammerbash: :hammerbash: and I am waiting for the supplier to get back to me on the way forward :rant:

Jo
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Mike Bondarczuk on August 13, 2021, 02:26:18 PM: Jo,

Pardon my ignorance but what is a chicken stick, and how do you use it, or is it an insider KFC joke.

Mike
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: bent on August 13, 2021, 03:58:50 PM: I think she means the live center in the tailstock. Chicken stick, meaning not being brave enough to dangle the part off of a 1/8" rim contacting the chuck...

Lovely bits of bronze there, Jo.
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: crueby on August 13, 2021, 04:18:57 PM: Yup - in the first two pictures there is the rod from the tailstock into the center of the part, just in case it slipped out of the chuck, castings will do that sometimes from the uneven surface.
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Jo on August 13, 2021, 05:12:36 PM: I use my plunger centre in the tailstock as my "Chicken stick" in case the bronze escapes from the chuck :paranoia:

Did you spot me checking the fit of the ring from the stand on the air chamber ::)

Jo
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Jo on August 31, 2021, 04:54:01 PM: Things are moving on...

I've bored the firebox casting, including the bore for the cylinder:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4369.JPG)

Then moved on to the Air Chamber. This is tricky as the inside is 56mm bore, with a 35mm bore on either end to constrain what you can use to bore it:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4373.JPG)

So I started with a "pointy" tool and then went in with a grooving shaped tool:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4374.JPG)

This reduced the ringing :ThumbsUp: The outside was shaped up and finally the holes drilled:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4388.JPG)

To get everything to fit together I had to counterbore the heads of some M4 allen screws into the top ring of the leg assembly:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4417.JPG)

With some reduced head allen screws in place a quick check they all fit together without the heads hitting:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4418.JPG)

Join it all together and we have the first stage of our Space ship :cartwheel:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4420.JPG)

The water jacket is another big casting so same machining stages:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4421.JPG)

Notice there are some marks still on that surface - it is not yet to the correct depth - this is just a roughing cut so it is square for holding.

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4422.JPG)

Skim the top edge and zero:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4424.JPG)

Before boring and cutting the 35mm diameter for the cylinder liner:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4425.JPG)

Check the length and

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4426.JPG)

Yes I still have 3.2mm to come off which will get rid of those marks we saw earlier :cartwheel:

Jo
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Roger B on August 31, 2021, 04:58:30 PM: That's a lot of shiny swarf :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: looking good :praise2:
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Dave Otto on August 31, 2021, 05:29:48 PM: Great progress Jo.
The base/legs assembly looks nice!

Dave
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: steamer on September 01, 2021, 01:38:49 AM: Thats a lot a brass!!!

Coming along Jo....Lot going on with this one...

Dave
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: crueby on September 01, 2021, 01:51:31 AM: Love how you counterbored the inside end of the holes. Surus should be getting his space suit ready for launching the ship soon! :Lol:
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: MJM460 on September 01, 2021, 08:38:15 AM: Hi Jo, Great progress on some tricky parts to hold, and a really good looking result. I really liked your approach to the curved legs. Brown stuff is useful after all.

Quite an interesting looking engine.

MJM460
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Jo on September 01, 2021, 03:31:02 PM: Quote from: MJM460 on September 01, 2021, 08:38:15 AM
Brown stuff is useful after all.

Very useful as it provides my winter heating :)

Turning the outside to 80mm diameter was easy but taking off the 3.2mm I felt better with a bit of support and that meant I could take deeper/faster cuts:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4427.JPG)

The problem is that the rotating centre gets in the way :facepalm: so it needs to be backed off to face the last little bit:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4428.JPG)

This end requires a step cut in it which docks in the first stage of our space ship:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4429.JPG)

Last little bit is to curve the lower edge with a router bit of a suitable external radi:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4430.JPG)

And then to check it all fits together:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4431.JPG)

:thinking: I was going to hold the top cap by the small end and machine the larger end flat but the draft angle makes this almost impossible to hold safely so it will have to be turned round and the other end done first:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4432.JPG)

Note the every important note to myself: the top bit is not the same as the diameter through all the other pieces so I mustn't get over enthusiastic :hellno:

Jo
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: corlissbs on September 01, 2021, 05:30:04 PM: Here is my Bee, in the USA. Not much to go to finish it, but I have set it aside to finish a few other engine projects. It is a very nice engine to build. I also built Mount's Bailey Vertical. That runs so sweet.

Brad Smith
Wisconsin, USA
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Jo on September 01, 2021, 05:37:29 PM: Nice one Brad 8), I will have to see if I can convince you to finish it :)

Jo
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: corlissbs on September 01, 2021, 06:50:01 PM: It will get finished. I am finishing my Alyn Foundry, Robinson hot air engine now. Brad
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Jo on September 03, 2021, 03:28:39 PM: A bit more and yes I did remember to bore the top of the cap 32mm :ThumbsUp:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4434.JPG)

Most of the cap is just turning to size/depth except the outside that has to be cleaned up. I did this by following the profile with a button tool then smoothing off by hand. You can see where there are still dips in the surface if you first coat it with permanent marker before applying the emery paper:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4435.JPG)

Once I was happy with this it was off to Tgs to mill two slots into which the supports for the main crankshaft brackets will go. To make sure I do not cut the slots too deep I first had to zero the cutter to the depth required (this nut was the 5mm required ;) ):

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4436.JPG)

Then we can cut the slots (not forgetting to drill the holes in either end):

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4437.JPG)

and check everything lines up on with the 35mm liner:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4439.JPG)

Why did Anthony make the slots 40mm long and 6.35mm wide :headscratch: I will have to make them out of something slightly wider than the piece of 38.1mm that first came to hand :thinking:

Jo
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Jasonb on September 03, 2021, 04:19:37 PM: If you are going to add a fillet of something like JB Weld to make it look like a casting the odd bit at the end will be covered by the fillet so you may be OK with your imperial stock. Maybe he was intending for those bits to be supplied water or laser cut from 1/4" plate though they would more likely be from 6mm plate now.

Any chance of a Coke can in a future shot to get an idea of Height? It looks quite a good size now it's starting to come together :)
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Admiral_dk on September 03, 2021, 08:20:32 PM: Very nice appearance Jo - here I will admit that a good number of things looks great in red metals, when they are freshly cut and haven't oxidized yet. Will it stay that way or do you plan to paint it :thinking:
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Jo on September 10, 2021, 01:34:28 PM: There are two options for the displacer cylinder/hot end: they can be made as one piece or as two.

Initially I was considering doing the one piece version but I am not happy on how "round" the piece of stainless tube is. The roundness of the tube matters in the displacer cylinder as the power piston needs to be a working fit.

During a visit to my supplier (to pick up someone's latest castings ::) :pinkelephant: ) we discussed this problem and agreed that a better way forward is to turn it round that way we can be sure that the bore is true. Out of the "come-in-handie" stocks came a piece of thick wall steel tube and hopefully a pair of 60mm discs can be taken out of another piece I found then the pieces can be silver soldered together before final turning to size :thinking:

Jo
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Jo on September 14, 2021, 03:36:25 PM: Things are not going well :facepalm:

The piece of large diameter stuff to make the flanges with as you can see proved to have a high carbon content:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4445.JPG)

Not that it was going to beat me, having cut a pocket for the tube to sit in when I silver solder it together, Mr Silky even convinced it to part off:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4446.JPG)

However I was less impressed when I found that so called piece of nice stuff I was given to make the main cylinder out of proved to be making long blue hot spirals of swarf. I decided that while it would have excellent wearing potential I would prefer something nicer to work with so this is a reject:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4447.JPG)

So I found a piece of cast Iron, squared it up:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4448.JPG)

Decided that was sticking out a bit far so centre drilled so I could provide tailstock support:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4449.JPG)

Made a lot of swarf:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4450.JPG)

Then as I wandered back to the drawing my eyes cast on the castings box and :o I didn't notice that before:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4452.JPG)

That is :censored: typical three starts on making the power cylinder and now I find that they provided a casting for it. I'm going back to my cross stitch. :paranoia:

Jo
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Jasonb on September 14, 2021, 03:58:19 PM: You have obviously not been doing enough fondling of this one, I would expect you to be able to identify ALL the castings with your eyes closed before starting :lolb: At least you did not get as far as boring it out so have a usable if smaller bar and one without that funny coating.

At least you could have blamed it on the Little one for hiding it from you ;)

Looks like free stainless is not the same as free machining stainless :thinking:
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: propforward on September 15, 2021, 05:04:43 PM: It's a really fun looking engine though. Bit like a little spaceship. I would have a hard time not surrounding it with little spacemen.
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Roger B on September 15, 2021, 05:34:59 PM: Still here and enjoying :) :) The fun of making things :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :wine1:
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: gary.a.ayres on September 16, 2021, 10:03:18 PM: Quote from: propforward on September 15, 2021, 05:04:43 PM
It's a really fun looking engine though. Bit like a little spaceship. I would have a hard time not surrounding it with little spacemen.

Kind of a dieselpunk-looking spaceship at that. 8)

Very nice work with the castings, Jo, as always.
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Jo on September 28, 2021, 07:10:52 AM: Looks like I have been forgetting to up date this thread :noidea:

I have bored the firebox casting for the exhaust stub:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4477.JPG)

You can see it is "floating" in the hole rather than falling through. This is because I left a little lip on either side:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4478.JPG)

Which made it easier when it came to silver soldering things together:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4479.JPG)

:thinking: Did I take pics of the other stuff, Ho hum :old:

Jo
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Vixen on September 28, 2021, 03:21:45 PM: Hello Jo,

Still following along in the background. Almost everything has been in brass/bronze so far. I've never worked those metals very much, so I am watching and learning.
It's interesting to see the different metal colours (after cooking) in the last photo.

Mike
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: bent on September 28, 2021, 06:45:41 PM: Love the self-fixturing tabs, Jo! Gonna steal that idea... :embarassed:
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Roger B on September 28, 2021, 08:01:03 PM: We like pictures :) :wine1: :old: :headscratch:
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Dave Otto on September 28, 2021, 11:43:15 PM: Lots of great progress on the ~~Rocket~~ Bee. :ThumbsUp:

Dave
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Jo on September 29, 2021, 03:33:22 PM: :noidea: Don't know what happened to the pics but I have machined both the displacer cylinder and the hot end. The hot end was silver soldered together and on the end I added a piece of what proved to be hard as :censored: Stainless. I tried supporting the cylinder with a fixed steady but because the tube section is rather thin it kept moving/crushing the stainless :paranoia: In the end I achieved this:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4480.JPG)

Yes the top of the hot end cylinder just fits between the back of the chuck and the LO taper ;D

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4481.JPG)

It was a :censored: to turn, next time I need to make sure the end cap is easy to turn 303 :ThumbsUp: not that hard stuff. Maybe that is why it is still on the shelf :thinking:

The next trick was to get the hot end to fit into the hole through all the castings. I decided the best way to see if I had cleaned it up enough was to poke it in in reverse:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4482.JPG)

As you can see the natural curve on the silver solder is preventing the hot cap from sitting tight against the casting. Once that was removed it was then time to slide it all together:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4484.JPG)

To find :o: :toilet_claw:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4483.JPG)

There is a gap . Further investigations on the cross sectional drawing shows a gasket and it should be 1.5mm thick. So I am calling that success :)

The displacer cylinder is a piece of tube with two end caps made super thin:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4486.JPG)

These need to be loctited in once the length of the displacer is known from the build. Which leaves that nasty looking displacer rod. If you read the instructions it says the bottom half is mild steel and the top half is brass :thinking: I am not convinced a 5BA thread in a 4.76mm diameter rod looks particularly strong :hellno:

Having checked the piece of brass I intend on using is straight by rolling it on a surface plate:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4487.JPG)

And added a 5BA thread to a piece of 3.2mm diameter stainless for the bottom half of the rod. I can begin to contemplate if I am happy or not with so little brass left holding things together :noidea:

Jo
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Admiral_dk on September 29, 2021, 05:24:02 PM: Great to see your progress Jo :ThumbsUp:

Any idea why the specifications say that the rod should be made out of two different materials ?

Per
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Jo on October 01, 2021, 03:30:22 PM: Thank you Per,

The top half of the rod acts as a bearing material through the middle of the piston so the brass would be a better choice than steel.

Talking of pistons I have turned the one up for this engine and it is a nice tight push fit through the power cylinder. The only tricky bit was threading the inside centre of the piston. I luckily managed to find a die and holder to fit.

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4488.JPG)

The other option would have been to screw cut it (but using the die was easier ;) )

Jo
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Roger B on October 02, 2021, 07:47:59 AM: That's a neat solution to threading inside the piston :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :wine1:
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Jo on October 03, 2021, 02:20:06 PM: Thank you Roger,

Drawing error time :o

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4492.JPG)

The piston collar shows M3 thread and the bolts to go into it are shown as 6BA :slap: The red arrow shows that the hole they go into are blind not a good idea :ShakeHead: If you do blind holes the tap cannot go full depth and when you try to tighten up the bolts this happens:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4496.JPG)

Drilled out and tapped through to the centre it all goes together:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4497.JPG)

After all that excitement I decided to go for something simple, for some reason Anthony had it as the first item he made but I will finally get round to doing the flywheel. The first question is why did it have that spare piece of cast Iron on it :headscratch:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4498.JPG)

There is no way you want to try turning a flywheel using a little central stub - it will be ringing before you can say "Jason never makes mistakes" ::) Best remove it to avoid tempting fate. First turning the outside round to a known size, then cutting it off so it can go in my come-in-handie stores ;)

Jo
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Jo on October 03, 2021, 03:41:30 PM: The flywheel was held by the inside of the rim, hard against the face of the chuck, in a position that minimised any wobbling about, to have the outside of the rim turned round and to have the centre bored out:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4499.JPG)

The bored was taken out so that a piece of the crankshaft stainless was a tight fit in it:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4500.JPG)

You may have noticed that the outside of the chuck jaws stuck out beyond the inside of the rim which prevented me from completing the facing operation. Having managed to get most of the way across the face I took the flywheel over and mounted it using outside jaws - which have that little half round cut away right next to the jaw which means that the ridge remaining on the face was not a problem. I could now face the flywheel:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4501.JPG)

and also do the outside of the boss in the centre before flipping it over and facing the other side. I have left the flywheel over sized both by diameter and by width. I can't see any point in reducing them and the extra weight will help the engine to run.

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4502.JPG)

I had a look in the box of castings to find other than the bronze displacer cylinder liner that I chose ::) not to use there is only this casting remaining:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4503.JPG)

Its going to be a tricky little one as the sides are not parallel and there isn't a straight edge anywhere :thinking: There is not much to go on this engine I might have to start negotiations for the next set of engine castings :)

Jo
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Bluechip on October 03, 2021, 08:46:46 PM: Cracking along now, Sarge .... :ThumbsUp: :D

How long until it cranks up ??

Dave
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Jo on October 03, 2021, 08:57:04 PM: Quote from: Bluechip on October 03, 2021, 08:46:46 PM
How long until it cranks up ??

Hopefully some time this month :)

Which will make Eric happy as he will use it as an excuse to get me to go and visit him so I can show it to him.... and he will then use it as an opportunity to try to sell me something ::)

Jo
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: scc on October 03, 2021, 09:20:02 PM: Nice detailed write ups again Jo, Thank You Terry :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Jo on October 05, 2021, 04:08:02 PM: Thank you Terry,

The crankshaft is simple:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4504.JPG)

It is two webs, a long shaped piece for the crank pin and a much longer piece for the main crankshaft. These have been Loctited then left over night. I have subsequently pinned them before cutting out the unwanted piece between the webs.

I also turned up the main bushes and slid them on the crankshaft along with the pulley and the flywheel. this left me with a desire for the connecting rod. The drawing doesn't make it totally clear as it just says made of brass and steel. Thankfully Anthony's write up explains which is which :) There are two parts of 19mm square brass needed for the main bearing bit and two pieces of steel required for the arms. The arms having been drilled in three places need tapered sides:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4505.JPG)

And rounded ends. Giving us the three parts to make the connecting rod out of:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4506.JPG)

I should have mentioned I have painted the bearing surface with paint (I don't have any tippex ) to discourage the silver solder from sneaking in there :paranoia: . Some high temperature flux has been added only where I want the silver solder to go :paranoia:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4507.JPG)

And then off to solder it up...

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4508.JPG)

It is now together. The good news is the screws that were holding it together through the crankshaft hole unscrewed nicely :ThumbsUp: But I am going to leave it there for tonight as I have other things planned and I do not want to rush and get it wrong :facepalm2:

Jo
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Jo on October 06, 2021, 04:31:07 PM: Two holes drilled and reamed (not the right size :wallbang: but corrected ::) )

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4510.JPG)

Mill the end down to 12mm, lots of filing then remember I still had not checked the cap still came off:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4511.JPG)

I don't think the feature is noticeable :thinking: Putting it together with the other bits:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4513.JPG)

I don't want to have to make that bit ever again :paranoia:

Jo
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Dave Otto on October 06, 2021, 05:05:57 PM: Nice assembly Jo, coming along nicely.

Dave
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Jo on October 07, 2021, 04:27:46 PM: Thank you Dave :) I think that is hopefully the hardest of the bits to make for this engine. Its downhill from now onwards :lolb:

Edit: The following link is too long. You need to reduce it to around 44mm between the two holes. This is a known "feature" with this model

Reaching up from the connecting rod is a drive link. Anthony expected this to be a casting and so would I :stickpoke: Instead we are making it out of Brass:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4514.JPG)

It is a pretty hefty piece of Brass and not the sort of bit most people would have hanging around :stickpoke: Luckily I had a suitable piece in my come-in-handie stash. The way it is drawn does not help you lay it out on a piece of bar. So first job find out the distance between centres to enable me to position it on the barstock:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/Link_layout.JPG)

The piece has been taken down to 8mm thick and has had the two holes drilled in the appropriate places:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4515.JPG)

You can see I have also added two pairs of buttons through the holes to protect them as I hand carve (hacksaw/files) the shape out:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4516.JPG)

Making sure to keep sufficient of the piece still there to be able to hold it:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4517.JPG)

Then turn 1.5mm bosses using the buttons to hold the piece:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4518.JPG)

Finally filing the two sides down to leave it 5mm thick:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4519.JPG)

The only really tricky bit was getting the clearance on the connecting rod so that it moves freely:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4520.JPG)

Nearly time to negotiate another set of castings :wine1:

Jo
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Roger B on October 07, 2021, 04:42:01 PM: That's some rather artistic work :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :wine1:
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Admiral_dk on October 07, 2021, 05:09:30 PM: Except for the holes are all of the rest done free hand ?
If so, I can only agree with Roger - really nice work :cheers:
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: RReid on October 07, 2021, 05:29:28 PM: Oh My - that's pretty! Continuing to enjoy following your work, Jo. :popcorn:
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Vixen on October 07, 2021, 06:01:32 PM: Some nice hand work there Jo. :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

You are certainly cracking on at a fast pace.

Mike
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: bent on October 07, 2021, 09:56:35 PM: Lovely stuff. Wondered at the size of the file buttons until you turned them down to size...nice trick! :popcorn:
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Jo on October 13, 2021, 03:16:28 PM: Thanks Guys :)

I was hoping to have gotten a bit more done by now. I managed to successfully turn the three pivots then moved on to start the crosshead which is made out of a piece of square brass. Thinks I mount that up in a collet block and it will provide better support and I won't have to cut down the piece of bar...

As you can see the collet does not fit square in the block :rant: this is one of those they haven't a clue about quality control Chinese bits :ShakeHead: Why won't it fit true? The locating groove down the side of the collet has not been cut central to the other two slots :disappointed: So its another Chinese tool that is worth even less than the bargain price I paid for it :Doh: I have written on the side of the collet to remind me it is :censored:

Jo
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: bent on October 13, 2021, 06:32:06 PM: Oof. I suppose you could cut a correctly positioned slot on another leg of the collet, but... :headscratch: :rant: :cussing:
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Jo on October 14, 2021, 11:38:30 AM: Never trust a chinese tool.....

I fancied doing the casting today. Anthony's instruction is drill the three holes in the right place and mill to width :noidea: This is my alternative version of that:

Lets start by checking the casting shape to see if it is off side and where the reference can be taken from:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4535.JPG)

Looks like the two main faces are rather tapered. We need to get rid of that first. So start by making it so we can safely hold it by removing the bulge on the top of that boss:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4536.JPG)

Then first making sure we are milling the correct side:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4538.JPG)

We can make the two sides parallel:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4540.JPG)

Mark out were we want the pivots to go:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4541.JPG)

Use those centre pops to position on a jig:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4542.JPG)

With it clamped down firmly drill smaller (than the final sized reamed hole) tapping drill sizes in the casting and on through to the jig:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4543.JPG)

Drill the jig clearance (6BA and 4BA ;) )

Secure casting to jig:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4544.JPG)

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4545.JPG)

With all the hard work done it is now time for the enjoyable easy bit :)

Jo
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Dan Rowe on October 14, 2021, 02:27:58 PM: Jo, your explanation and photos of how to machine a complicated casting is certainly more useful than the sparse drill three holes in the right position. Thanks for taking the time to write this up.

Cheers Dan
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Jo on October 14, 2021, 04:25:02 PM: Thank you Dan :) Castings are nothing to be frightened of so long as you spend a little time thinking about how to go about make them.

The Casting can now have 2mm off the larger/ rough face:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4546.JPG)

Then it can be taken off the jig and the actual measurements calculated to come off each side. Remember the large facing milling cutter previously used is already zeroed ready to go:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4547.JPG)

Once to width I swapped over to an 8mm cutter. Zeroed on the jig face, which then told me the final face needed to be 9.5mm up from that and it was milled to width. Now that everything is ready we can clamp the casting back onto the jig and drill and ream the three holes:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4548.JPG)

I was getting tired :-[ and forgot that one of these holes should be reamed 3.18mm and drilled it 3.8mm ready to ream 4mm :Doh: Having bunged up the hole by silver soldering in a plug. It could then be drilled and reamed the correct size. Notice that the use of the jig means I could lift the casting off go and "bodge" it then remount it using dowels in the other two holes:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4549.JPG)

Recognising I am tired (and likely to add further unintended features ::) ) I turned up the three pairs of filing buttons and have abandoned the workshop for the day. So this is where I am leaving it:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4551.JPG)

Ready to file to shape. After that we can add the slots in two of the bosses.

I am wondering if this casting is actually the correct shape. The original etching does not show it so it is open for interpretation. :thinking:

Jo
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Jo on October 15, 2021, 03:32:26 PM: I've done a bit of filing and then cut a couple of slots:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4554.JPG)

And even worked out where it goes:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4556.JPG)

:wine1:

Jo
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: propforward on October 15, 2021, 03:56:49 PM: That's a delightfully ornate assembly. It's really shaping up very well.
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Admiral_dk on October 15, 2021, 08:01:08 PM: Looks like you rectified your blunder nicely :ThumbsUp:
Great to see the family shot - now I get how it functions :cheers:
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Jo on October 17, 2021, 03:14:29 PM: Thank you Per and Stuart,

So many parts begin with drilling and reaming some holes on the end of a longer piece of bar so you have something to hang on to:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4557.JPG)

This was particularly true of the little cross head which used the remainder of the bar to be held by as the circular end was turned:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4558.JPG)

Then it needed tapping:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4559.JPG)

Before cutting the central slot:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4560.JPG)

Before starting today's filing I turned the ends of the link:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4561JPG)

And milled away much of what was not required in the central section:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4562.JPG)

Before doing some more hand filing:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4563.JPG)

And attaching them to the assembly:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4564.JPG)

:thinking: I cannot put off doing the crankshaft supports much longer.

Jo
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: crueby on October 17, 2021, 03:28:38 PM: Shaping up great. Nice proportions on those linksges.

:popcorn:
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Jo on October 21, 2021, 03:07:53 PM: Thank you Chris :)

Main Brackets for the crankshaft bearings: Take a piece of steel and cut three pieces, mill square and to size:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4565.JPG)

Mill the main piece and the bearing top to fit each other:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4566.JPG)

Finish the fit by hand and screw tight together:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4567.JPG)

Drill and bore both for the crankshaft bearings:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4568.JPG)

Mill the square bits:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4570.JPG)

Before getting the hacksaw out to cut off the main part that is not required and finish by rounding the corners off. Then check it fits the base:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4571.JPG)

I feel the need to focus on the negotiation for the next set of castings :wine1: :pinkelephant:

Jo
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: bent on October 21, 2021, 04:16:42 PM: Nice work, Jo. :cheers: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Admiral_dk on October 21, 2021, 04:44:29 PM: Another fine family shot :ThumbsUp:

Made me think not long before first run .... followed by - wait a second ... there are some stationary bits missing here, and I haven't got a clue how many ::)
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: gary.a.ayres on October 21, 2021, 09:50:51 PM: Very elegant!
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Jo on October 22, 2021, 08:51:57 AM: Thanks Guys :)

Quote from: Admiral_dk on October 21, 2021, 04:44:29 PM
Made me think not long before first run .... followed by - wait a second ... there are some stationary bits missing here, and I haven't got a clue how many ::)

The pivot brackets are next, a pivot to go through it and a thick Gasket is needed under the hot cap, then once it is together (studs ::)) I can calculate the required length of the displacer rod and make that. Then it will be down to pot luck to get it running ;) .

But don't hold your breath, time is short.. I am sure I had much more time when I used to work :o

Jo
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: samc88 on October 22, 2021, 09:18:02 PM: Nice work Jo. This is shaping up nicely, it's an interesting looking engine
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Jo on October 24, 2021, 05:27:21 PM: Thank you Sam :)

The last piece I needed to make from barstock is the pair of arms that the bracket pivots on. First drill the holes:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4573.JPG)

Then mounted together the two sides can be tapered:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4574.JPG)

The ends rounded by hand and a couple of bushes made to fit in the big hole:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4575.JPG)

I did not fitted these together with the main bearing stands before giving them a squirt of primer. It is coming close to the point where I have to make the decision to paint or leave as gunmetal the majority of this engine :noidea:

Jo
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Jo on October 27, 2021, 03:50:50 PM: I've been fettling ready for painting :paranoia: The tripod was taken apart and the legs have been given an additional smear of araldite to help the legs hold on. Which of course pushes out when you tighten up the Allen screw that holds the legs on and has to be removed again ::)

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4582.JPG)

I also realised that I had not yet put the water pipes on the water jacket so a quick drill on the mill:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4583.JPG)

These then had to be silver soldered on and of course the two tubes are on opposite sides of the jacket so they need to be held in place during the silver soldering. Two bolt sets with washers were used to do this:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4584.JPG)

I feel I am on the final straight and yes I have decided to paint my Bee. I decided against Yellow and black (very tempting that ;) ) and went for the traditional Stirling red with a black firebox:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4585.JPG)

A couple of the pieces you can see are still in primer :facepalm: will need to be painted red. I had the joys of cutting a very thick piece of gasket card that my jewellers snips would not touch. There are some more holes to drill in the power cylinder and the hot end as I assemble the engine. Once together the final piece to make up is the displacer piston and rod:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4586.JPG)

I cannot finish this until the engine is together as I need to know how long the brass piece of the rod needs to be and possibly to adjust the length of the piston itself and that can only be found by measuring the model.

Definitely time to negotiate that next casting set :cartwheel:

Jo
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: bent on October 27, 2021, 06:54:53 PM: Love the idea of the visual pun (yellow and black striped bee?), but maybe it's too cute for an engine...still. :Lol:

Nice work overall. :popcorn:
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Roger B on October 30, 2021, 07:21:59 AM: It always good to see an engine from the time when the designs were artistic rather than just functional :) :) :) :wine1:
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Jo on October 30, 2021, 04:08:51 PM: Sadly those lovely "Artistic" curves are wrong :rant:

I've been putting the engine together and the crankshaft was hitting that nice cast bracket. After a number of hours I Email Anthony and while I waited for a reply I decided to read all of his article including the bit about assembling the engine and there he admits both the nice curved link and the cast bracket had to be BODGED to fit :hammerbash: This means the dimensions on the drawing are WRONG. You would have thought that after all this time the drawing would have been corrected :stickpoke:

The nice cast bracket had to be "opened up" and the nice S shaped link had to be shortened by bending it in the vice :cussing: Needless to say all my nice polished surface has been messed up and to make matters worse the casting cracked so I had to silver solder it :censored:

No pictures today because while the crank will go round it is still tight in one place so I am still ~~going~~ bodging :toilet_claw: Maybe tomorrow...

Jo
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: crueby on October 30, 2021, 04:12:52 PM: :zap:

At least they could write a note on the plans. Sheesh.

:facepalm2:
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Jo on October 31, 2021, 03:24:52 PM: I have bent :facepalm2: that S shaped piece so that it is now 44mm between the hole centres rather than 47.3mm. Before:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4597.JPG)

As you can see it goes * BANG * :ShakeHead: Now it goes:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4598.JPG)

Round and round with about 1mm to spare :)

I've also drilled the holes around the top/bottom of the cylinder bits:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4599.JPG)

I've toyed with using long screws to hold these to the main castings but one can't beat a nice set of studs :naughty:

Jo
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: ettingtonliam on November 01, 2021, 02:50:38 PM: I bet the full size fitters had to do a fair bit of bending and tweaking to get it all to fit, while quietly (or maybe not so quietly) cursing the designer/draughstsman.

Is Antony Mount still around to report these issues to?
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: bent on November 01, 2021, 03:39:38 PM: Oh bother. :-\

Glad to see an expert bodger is at hand to get 'er running. ;D
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Admiral_dk on November 01, 2021, 07:08:26 PM: Oh man - that is poor .... almost to the point of being dishonest ... :hammerbash:

As Chris says - they could at least write a warning on the drawings ...!!!

Glad you found a solution Jo :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: scc on November 01, 2021, 08:22:12 PM: My sympathies Jo. To discover design errors so late in the build :Mad: Pleased to see you have sussed it out . Excellent work as usual :ThumbsUp: Terry
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: ettingtonliam on November 02, 2021, 01:07:06 PM: Will you be telling Polly about this? They woudn't even have to change the drawing, just slip a note in with the revised dimensions.
I've no experience with Polly on these matters, but several other well known suppliers are simply not interested in being told!
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Jo on November 02, 2021, 01:11:19 PM: Thanks Guys, Anthony and I have exchanged Emails about this.. He is going to try to get a comment put on the drawing but as it is now sold by a third party he has no control over what goes out. We agreed I would document it here and hopefully other will find it (if all else fails)

I have a very nice set of studs to hold the pieces together but I do not have a long enough nut spinner to get down there to tighten then up (having worked out how to get them on there in the first place :facepalm: So I have used some 20mm long cheese head screws instead :-X

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10007/IMG_4600.JPG)

The two cylinders are a total of 205mm deep. I now need to calculate out the length of the displacer and its rod:

Anthony tells us that "The movement of the piston and the displacer rod can now be checked and the travel noted. With the piston at the bottom dead centre and, it it were connected, the displacer also at the bottom dead centre; the volume of the open space between the underside of the piston and top of the displacer would be 1 1/2 times the volume of the piston displacement.

Measure the length of the hot cap/cylinder (205mm). Subtract the distance of the piston at bottom dead centre (20mm + 25mm piston length = 45mm) This gives you the amount of room in the hot cap (160mm) You should now be able to calculate the piston displacement (32mm diameter 21mm stroke = Pi * r ^2 = 16,890) multiply by 1 1/2 times (25,333) , and subtract this from the volume already measured in the hot cap (Pi * 16^2 *160 =128,600) . The result is the length of the displacer . Subtract an additional 2mm from each end of the displacer to provide clearance

I am confused :headscratch:

If the stroke of the power piston is 21mm, then all we need to do is multiply that by 1.5 = 31.5, add the 2mm plus 2mm for the spare gap = 36.5mm and subtract that from the 160mm = 123.5mm which is fractionally off that shown on the drawing :)

Jo
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Jo on November 02, 2021, 03:47:17 PM: First attempt of applying some heat and the end of the hot cap popped off :toilet_claw:

It is silversoldered back on and I'll try again tomorrow.... :-\

Jo
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Roger B on November 02, 2021, 05:16:02 PM: One problem at a time, not long now :) :) :) :wine1:

I always like photos with the rest of your workshop in the background to see all the delights in progress on the work benches :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: ettingtonliam on November 02, 2021, 09:22:52 PM: Thats the annoying thing isn't it? We've all come across errors on drawings and wondered why it hadn't been picked up. Now we know, they are picked up but the supplier can't be ar---ed to do anything about them. A simple A4 addendum sheet would do fine in most cases.
Back in old days of Reeves, before Reeves 2000, David Piddington designed a 7 1/4" gauge model of Locomotion. This had its faults, but if you told David he'd record it, and send out a periodic updating sheet to all known purchasers of the drawings. Since the demise of Reeves, and the coming of Reeves 2000, during which David was made redundant, all this has stopped. Theres still multiple errors, but Reeves just don't want to know, in fact I'm pretty sure the current management don't understand the issues.
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Jasonb on November 03, 2021, 07:09:03 AM: I expect the vast majority of those people building any of Anthony's designs will also seek out his build articles and read them so they would be aware of the problem. I've certainly read his builds of all the ones I have made and most of what I have not made. Then as they were aware would tend not to go back to the supplier about the problem so it does not get corrected on the drawing or a note added

Like many other build articles that ran in ME or EiM there are often corrections or missing sizes in the text that don't appear on the drawings so always worth looking out for the old back issues to get a copy for any project, and read them. These days anyone would do well to check the forums too for a concurrent thread or people posting queries.
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: ettingtonliam on November 03, 2021, 07:57:08 AM: Having to refer to a separate document that isn't supplied with the drawings in order to interpret them is rank bad practice.
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Jasonb on November 03, 2021, 08:20:54 AM: It is, but so common in model engineering, all those sets of loco drawings don't come with the builds from old ME which often start with a correction from an earlier installment and then there is the letters page for the next year or so where things can also be picked up - the pre runner of forums today. Yet there is a lot of info or ref back to using parts from other designs that you would be hard pushed to make the engine without the old articles.

You also have the fact that the drawings from Anthony's models are taken from the magazine that they were in not from his own drawings so corrections are not so easy unless added by hand so if Anthony did not put a revised drawing at the end of his article where he found the problem then less chance of it being provided by the new supplier. Plus the obvious problem of errors in the printed drawings that were not on the originals.

Take the latest Ballaarat in ME, Luker has produced a good set of CAD drawings but still there are queries and like me he has decided to run a forum thread to go with his articles, already several points dealt with in there so anyone building would do well to read it. https://www.model-engineer.co.uk/forums/postings.asp?th=173152&p=1. He will update his CAD drawings but with Mytimemedia not having put out a drawing for any new designs for at round 12years the mags will be the only source of info as he does not sell the drawings or castings.

At the end of the day if the designer does not have the same view about corrections as those vented here and on most forums then they are not going to provide any to whoever is selling the castings/drawings. The suppliers have not built these engines so don't know if what someone picks up is a general error or just a culmination of the builders own work, it costs to verify points raised and the typical deep pocketed model engineer won't want to pay anymore for a set of drawings than they have to.
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Jo on November 03, 2021, 09:12:51 AM: Quote from: ettingtonliam on November 03, 2021, 07:57:08 AM
Having to refer to a separate document that isn't supplied with the drawings in order to interpret them is rank bad practice.

Anthony supplies a description sheet and a parts list with all of his engines. He said in his Email he would have the drawing page updated with a note.

Quote from: Jasonb on November 03, 2021, 08:20:54 AM
but with Mytimemedia not having put out a drawing for any new designs for at round 12years ..

Yes that was around when I stopped taking Model Engineer. Having said that Surus had me collect a set of Ferrabee Pillar Engine castings for him a couple of months ago and I was surprised to find that ME had actually published that series with drawings only a few years ago :o

Jo
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Jasonb on November 03, 2021, 09:39:57 AM: I seem to remember seeing that at Guildford in the bare metal not yet complete so he would have only made that a few years ago.

The other problem with errata sheets etc is that with many sets of castings and part completed engines changing hands they can often be lost or separated. Add that to the fact a new owner may not even get a set of drawings with the castings so may have to track down an old copy that may not have revisions on them.

Then there is the problem of the supplier publishing an errata sheet that does go some way to correcting errors but in itself introduces more, Stuart Victoria being one example.
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Admiral_dk on November 03, 2021, 11:46:04 AM: You have some very valid points here Jason and I can't offer any foolproof solutions for any of them ....
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Jo on November 03, 2021, 04:23:58 PM: In the meantime ::) I have been trying to get this engine running:

She is thinking about it.. I suspect there is a bit of a leak between the two cylinders so tomorrow I will put some gasket sealant in there. You can hear the pressure building up and can see the bubbles around the power piston rod.

I noticed that another of these engines had added a grub screw on the cast bracket. It is probably there to prevent what happened to mine (see photo). This is caused by a fractional misalignment of the holes somewhere... I think I will also add a grub screw ;)

Jo
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Alyn Foundry on November 04, 2021, 12:06:41 PM: Hi Jo.

The running, or trying to get running has always been my favourite part of any build. Looking forward to seeing the video.

Having spent many years in the company of vintage machines it makes me wonder if those fixed Brass bushes in the support arms were there originally? The “ bell crank “ seems to have sufficient bearing area and if the horizontal pivot were fixed solidly it wouldn’t ride out. An internet search didn’t find any period photos of this particular Bailey model so I guess we’ll never know unless the model was made from works drawings?

My search did highlight a Robinson patent however, a vertical design that I wasn’t aware of previously. Built by Frank Pearn of Manchester. A name familiar with pumps and steam engines.

Cheers Graham.
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Jasonb on November 04, 2021, 01:04:49 PM: I would imagine the originals had the arms done as castings not flat bar and an integral boss at the end. Shaft may well have rotated directly in the iron boss or been pinned and the bell crank rotated on the fixed shaft.

Hope you get it running today Jo or you won't be allowed anything later for "Fondle Thursday" :(
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Alyn Foundry on November 04, 2021, 02:38:41 PM: Quote from: Jasonb on November 04, 2021, 01:04:49 PM
I would imagine the originals had the arms done as castings not flat bar and an integral boss at the end. Shaft may well have rotated directly in the iron boss or been pinned and the bell crank rotated on the fixed shaft.

I hope this digression isn’t too much but here’s Gardner’s own design. You can clearly see the pivot is secured on either side with the bell crank able to rotate upon the pivot, and yes, the supports were part of the casting. I know they used to minimise the use of what we would term “ exotic “ metals because cast Iron was “ cheap as chips “ back then.

Cheers Graham.
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: Jasonb on November 04, 2021, 04:19:31 PM: Do you have any more images or details of that one apart from that one photo of a green one Graham, quite fancy knocking one up.
Title: Re: Bailey's 1881 Bee
Post by: corlissbs on December 09, 2022, 12:35:11 AM: I am finishing up my Bee and went back to review this article. The messages just ended without knowing if you ever got your Bee to run. Did you? Brad in Wisconsin, USA