Model Engine Maker

Engines => Your Own Design => Topic started by: steam guy willy on April 16, 2021, 02:09:27 AM

Title: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on April 16, 2021, 02:09:27 AM
Hi All ,I am now starting on a new build which is the machinery inside the New Mills Pumping station that is here in Norwich about 500 yards from my house. This pumping station used the river water turbine to pump air into the sewerage system to activate  the " Shone Pnewmatic ejectors "to move the sewerage around the city to the sewerage works situated further down the river. Here are photos old and new of the buildings and the equipment installed from 1898 to the present day.

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on April 16, 2021, 02:13:27 AM
here are more pics and thanks to Crewby for supplying me with the info from the US about the turbines

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on April 16, 2021, 02:35:02 AM
A model of this was started by someone else about 20 years ago and this is how far they got . However this would be a very large model so I am starting again to make it half size !! The turbine parts are quite involved and all the numerous curved parts need to be the same so I will have tomato a press tool or some thing ...on the previous model there was a fibreglass attempt and also a hand beaten aluminium attempt ?!!  a few more pics

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: crueby on April 16, 2021, 02:41:20 AM
Looks like a wonderful project!  Off to get more popcorn now...    :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on April 16, 2021, 02:47:12 AM
Hi Chris , yes and I am going to find this quite challenging  but I am sure it will all come together ...I will have to find a  Flypress though !!!  and thanks for all that info about Stilwell and Pierce Fascinating !! 

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: cnr6400 on April 16, 2021, 12:22:16 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Is the brown dome shaped item in the caliper / mitre box pic a former for the turbine buckets?

Re the flypress, not sure about availability of those, local to you. Very hard to find where I am. However, arbour presses from China are plentiful, and so are car jack-based hydraulic presses, from car repair tool suppliers. Good luck finding a suitable press!
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: gbritnell on April 16, 2021, 06:12:37 PM
Great looking and unique project!
gbritnell
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on April 17, 2021, 03:27:02 AM
Hi CNR, yes this is the bucket former for the previous attempt by someone else some time ago ,..however my model will be half the size of his/her's so I have used it to make a smaller former half size and have sawn all the slots to creat paper templates... these will be photocopied half size and will be glued to steel plate and sawn out to make a solid former to use for a press tool. Yes a unique project and it would be good to make it as a working model using buckets of water to activate it !!! this was builtin 1898 but converted with some steam engines when the water level in the river was low ...these are no longer there and over the years there have been electric motors installed etc etc . The last time this pumping station was used was in 1972 so has been in a derelict state ever since !!

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on April 26, 2021, 01:32:50 AM
More work on the engine .. I have made a few more drawings  and also have managed to get to the Photocopiers at last ?!!  As I will be making this engine half the size of the parts that I have retrieved I have been making the mould for the turbine blades . I finished sawing the slots to make the paper templates and took them to the shop to photocopy half size...however as an A4 piece of paper is half the size of an A3 I just got the drawings reduced from A3 to A4. when I got back home something didn't look right and on  further examination discovered the new drawings were 70% Rather than 50% ??!!!!   so I won't do that again :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:  I will now transfer the 29 shapes to thin metal and using the base outline build up the press tool...

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: MJM460 on April 26, 2021, 05:06:49 AM
Ah, Willy, the joys of mathematical scaling.

A4 is indeed half the size of A3, but half the area.  The linear dimensions are square root of half, or 0.7071.  You actually need the linear dimensions to be half those of the original, which means the area will be 25%.

The answer is actually to do exactly that again.  Put two of your new A4 sheets on the machine to make A3 size again, and reduce to A4.  0.7071 x 0.7071 = 0.5, so the linear dimensions will now be half the original as required.

I have found if you really want exactly some scale, you have to measure the first attempt and do a final adjustment of a few percent, as the machines are not perfectly accurate, but probably more than accurate enough for what you are doing.  (The original may not have been that precise!)

By the way, I like your approach to a very interesting build.  It has many unusual features to model.  I am looking forward to following along and eventually seeing it lift water like the original, but don’t get too realistic on that point!  And just to please Avtur, it will be round, at least that part of it, though there seems to be interesting reciprocating machines in the plant as well.  Something for everyone.

MJM460


Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: Admiral_dk on April 26, 2021, 11:34:29 AM
Historically the Printers use to start with an A0, they then folded over the middle of the longest length. This gave them two A1's, folding again over the longest gives two (four) A2's, etc. - down to A6. This has to do with Newspapers, magazines and books - so this is were the to halve comes from ....

MJM460 is right about this equals to halve the square root (.707) for each dimention.
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on April 27, 2021, 01:21:01 AM
Hi MJM and DK thanks for the info and also .707.  is half of 1.414 which is the length fro corner to corner of a square piece of paper ..so is there correlation going on here ?? 
So I have cut out the 1/4" thick base plate and the numbered pieces of paper will be glued to thin brass sheet , and cut out to fill the former and than glued, soldered, stuck or bolted ,riveted all together, then filed to shape ....this is the most difficult part I think so will see what happens ....

More views of the engine and the compressor parts that has the screw in parts missing  ??
Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: MJM460 on April 27, 2021, 02:46:16 AM
Hi Willy,

The 0.707 is the square root of a half, rounded to 3 decimal places.

1.414 is the reciprocal of 0.707 similarly rounded.  That it is also double is irrelevant, the wrong sum.

Because the paper sizes are each half the area of the previous larger one, the square root of half is the ratio of the lengths of the sides of the respective sizes.

I hope that clarifies things a little.

I am a little confused by the two blocks on the machine.  I am unable to read the print on the drawings, and have assumed that the one closer to the crankshaft is the steam cylinder, but perhaps it is the air cylinder?  In which case, those screwed sockets might be valve pockets?

On another subject, do you plan to beat copper or brass sheet over the former?  Could those templates be made of wood for easier cutting and sanding to shape?  It’s certainly a fascinating feature to model. 

I will be following all the way.

MJM460

Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: Zephyrin on April 27, 2021, 08:56:40 AM
Hi Willy, it looks as a great model, with lot of various machinery, very nice project !

The base could have been slotted with the mill to help to hold firmly in place all these formers.

why not attack directly the shape and follow the progress using the gauges as hollow profiles, sort of bread and butter method; to much hard metal to remove at first ?
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on April 28, 2021, 12:06:12 AM
Hi MJM  , thanks for more info ... so the pumping station is used to pump air primarily to activate the Shone ejectors to move the sewerage around the city to the main pumping station (steam) to the sewerage works at Whitlingham a few miles down stream of the Wensum/Yare out to the North sea at Gt Yarmouth . Originally the turbines used were more than adequate to supply enough compressed air for the ejectors and this was a very cheap option as it relied on the 6' 6" drop in the water level at the New Mills site
  however they also installed the compound steam engines for use in the times of drought. There isthmus photo that shows the 1898 set up with the white steam supply pipes visible . When the site was converted to electricity the steam engines were removed. All this info is available but not at the moment as the local records office is closed due to lockdown !! I do have a few documents but they are not very clear .There are a couple of pics of the Trowse pumping station that will on the list in the future !!

Hi Z, thanks for your comments and I will be making the formers extra thick so there all hold each other in place.  also when I was cutting the slots in the Fibreglass former I found it to have a foam rubber middle part !! presumably to use less fibreglass in its construction!!
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on April 29, 2021, 01:15:40 AM
More work with the turbine blade former... The smaller photo copied shapes have been cut out and stuck onto the  15 Gauge  brass plate ...ther are 31 pieces of brass needed for the full length and these were calculated at  .070"  The next job will be to file them out and fitted into the base plate ...... Also the previous 1/10 scale parts showing the fibreglass item attached to the shaped spindle ..with the inlet fixed outer part .so lots of work to do yet ...

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: cnr6400 on April 29, 2021, 01:34:47 AM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: Admiral_dk on April 29, 2021, 11:35:27 AM
Looks like you have nailed the former jig to perfection Willy  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: crueby on April 29, 2021, 01:04:47 PM
Hi Willy,
Once you have the forms all made, what will the blades be made of and how?
Chris
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: ddmckee54 on April 29, 2021, 05:53:04 PM
It's sometthing to consider, but 3D printed parts have been used as press dies in forming metal parts.  Even in sheet steel, but I don't remember what gauge it was that he was using - 18GA maybe?

In the video he was attempting to form a replacement shoe for a reciprocating saw, and he got pretty good results with 3D printed dies.  He was using a resin printer, but I remember seeing videos by a machine shop that used a filament printer to print dies for limited production runs - runs of less than a thousand parts.

For number of blades that you need to make this it might be a good application.

Don
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on April 29, 2021, 11:27:45 PM
Hi Chris,  I am thinking of using  "thin" copper annealed and then pressed into a deep box that surrounds the former. This will be experimented with and I will be using "bits" of rubber under a heavy steel block to push the copper down  ?!! however this will be something I have not done before !!!

Hi Don, Thanks and this would be possible and I will be making between 15 and twenty of these and I only have files and saws in my workshop so have not got the tools and expertise to do all this with modern technology !!  also this way I can still make the parts even if the electric goes down  :ThumbsUp:
 and could make spares in case of mishaps  cheers

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: Zephyrin on April 30, 2021, 07:29:26 AM
Hi
perhaps you may consider to cast these blades in zinc alloy or similar easy to melt metal, you would get lot of hand filing to do at the end too...
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on May 01, 2021, 01:11:10 AM
Hi Z , yes that is an option ..however the blades need to be attached to the funnel part ..so I am thinking copper blade soldered to a brass funnel ??  so more work on the formers  19 on the way and 10 -11  more to go...quite hard work all this and it has rained today so April showers do exist after a month of almost zero precipitation !!   a few more pics of the pump station showing the air receivers and some of the pipework. Also the wooden teeth on the gear wheels ...

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on May 01, 2021, 01:29:23 AM
Sorry got in a muddle with the internet ...!!

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on May 05, 2021, 02:28:26 AM
The individual pieces are now cut out and filed to shape and all fitted together. some of them were not quite tall enough so I had to saw out slots and bend them out to bring them up to correct height. So all ready to solder together in place .....

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: RReid on May 05, 2021, 02:42:22 AM
Careful, that project is threatening to turn you into a custom coachbuilder! Youl'll be showing us your English Wheel next.  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: crueby on May 05, 2021, 02:44:29 AM
Willy, is the turbine what powers the pump, or is the turbine the pumping end of things? I'm not clear about what does what...
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on May 05, 2021, 03:49:15 AM
Hi Chris, yes the turbines drives the pumps with two sets to enable maintenance to be done , however there was steam engines also provided when the water level was too low.. at a later date electric motors were incorporated  and updated as time wore on . The fall of water was about 6'6"  and this was used from 1898 until 1972  so basically a lot of free power was used to operate the sewerage system , I will reply with lots more details later ...
Hi Ronald , thanks , yes the English wheel would be a good way to do this ..but there are about 20 of them !!!
Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on May 08, 2021, 02:53:15 AM
So now the parts have been tinned and the whole lot "cooked" and soft soldered in place...so waiting for itto cool down and then file to finished shape and polished up ..

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: crueby on May 08, 2021, 02:57:58 AM
Looks like something our school cafeteria served once...   :paranoia:




Interesting process, watching along.   :popcorn:
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on May 13, 2021, 02:42:00 AM
so...still scheaming and thinking etc etc .I have finished the former and after looking at the fibreglass and aluminium attempts from the previous build I have tried to make a copper version ...This was achieved by flanging the cup shaped blades by using a ballpein hammer  and a sandbag  this seems to work but I need to use a smaller ball hammer...
so looking promising...

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: crueby on May 13, 2021, 03:10:45 AM
I assume you are annealing the copper frequently?
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on May 14, 2021, 02:27:43 AM
Hi Chris ,  yes anealing is making it easier and I now have a proper leather bag to beat the copper into ,  also I run the ball pein hammer backwards and forwards on the copper to burnish out the small dents on the surface , I am also using this old copper plaque for the material.

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: Kim on May 14, 2021, 05:10:08 PM
Interesting.  So, how exactly do you use the leather bag?  Do you put the copper plate on the bag, then the form on top of that, and pound on the form?  Or do you put the form on the table, then the copper plate on that, followed by the leather bag, and beat on the leather bag?

This is an new technique to me.

Kim
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on May 14, 2021, 11:22:15 PM
Hi Kim   the leather bag is full of course sand and the flat piece of annealed copper is put on to it .  It is then beaten with the ball of the hammer starting in the middle and as the compound curve is formed it is frequently put over the brass mould to check  that the copper is starting to conform to it. The copper is frequently annealed and re "worked" the whole process seems a bit random but it does "happen". also the outside of the copper is snipped off as the shape is produced . As it is hammered to shape the creases need to be bashed out as you progress ......quite difficult to explain as one just "does" it !!!

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: crueby on May 14, 2021, 11:57:53 PM
Interesting method - I took a very short (one afternoon) course in copper raising, the way they taught (one of many) was using a planishing hammer and a polished metal stake with a curved end to impart the curve into the metal. We were not trying to match a particular shape, just learning how the metal moves and some basic techniques. For boiler endcaps, I have used wood forms to get a specific size/shape, but that would be tougher for the kind of curves you are going for. It always fascinates me to watch someone using sandbags, rollers, english wheels, all that stuff to form sheet metal. Amazing what can be done!
 :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on May 15, 2021, 01:42:22 AM
High Chris , Thanks for the comment  and I have spent a lot of time flanging boiler endplates ..usually in 14/16 gauge copper ... this is 15 thou " stuff so quite easy to form ... actually the way I have done this is just made up as I go along ..the same as everybody that makes engines does I suppose ??!!  A few pics and I have made 5 of them so 11 more to go and the last one will possibly be perfect ??    one chap I talked to once said that if you were making a whole row of items like this then when you came to installing them you mixed them up so that they would sort of look similar ???!!. I use the curved tin snips held in the vice to snip all the trimmings off and have also used the former with the flat face of the hammer to see how much needs to be removed .  As all these parts are hidden the only criteria is for the turbine to work !!! Looking at the Cookson Gold Catalogue they also have blocks of hard rubber that is quite useful.

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: Kim on May 15, 2021, 05:23:43 AM
Very interesting process!  Thanks for the additional detail.
Looks like a LOT of work! :)

Kim
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on May 19, 2021, 02:40:46 AM
So.. all the blades are now made and i have to now trim them up to attach to the spindle . These will be silver soldered in place but i will have to make some sort of jig to keep them true,  the forming was quite stressful and really painful on my neck but i percevered till they were all done.

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: crueby on May 19, 2021, 03:19:12 AM
Quite a lot of work but work well done!  Thats more blades than I thought.
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: Admiral_dk on May 19, 2021, 10:49:34 AM
Quote
the forming was quite stressful and really painful on my neck but i percevered till they were all done.

We are not getting any younger Willy - but you should be happy with the result.

Per
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on May 20, 2021, 02:31:40 AM
Hi Chris and Per ...Yes there are 16 blades altogether on the prototype and I may reduce them ?? I have been screaming about how toehold everything in place and have been raiding the Meccano box again....there is a thin piece of coppersilversoldered to the edge of the blade and this is to hold them in place... the copper strip is from those adjustable ceiling lights that get chucked out in Jarrold's skip regularly !!!  the blades will still need fitting to have a really close fit  and will be silver soldered at the top and bottom and then filled in with something like JB weld ??  but will see what happens....

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on May 21, 2021, 03:08:12 AM
So I have now silver soldered the bottom parts of the blades to the spindle to see what happened and should have made the blades from thicker stuff as they are now quite flimsy due to them all getting aneald due to the high temperature of the soldering. also I had an accident when soldering as I made a box from fire bricks that collapsed onto it  !!! at least I can rebend them although there is not much room for large fingers !!  I will persevere with it and see what happens next....

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: scc on May 21, 2021, 01:49:59 PM
Amazing work Willy :ThumbsUp:  Sorry to hear about your firebrick collapse :o    Very impressive :praise2:     Terry
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: MJM460 on May 21, 2021, 01:56:01 PM
Hi Willy, an amazing testament to your skill that you have managed to form so many similar blades.   And quite a tricky silver soldering job.  Bad luck about the brickwork collapse, but you will get there.  Bending the blades back will work harden them again for you so not all loss.

Really enjoying following your build of an interesting plant.

MJM460



Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on May 25, 2021, 01:40:34 AM
Hi Terry and MJM..Thanks and am .still trying to sort out the turbine blades and need to spend more time in the workshop...

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on May 26, 2021, 02:59:40 AM
So getting in a bit of muddle with this... I think the person that made the larger size model that I am copying seems to have made it as a visual piece rather than a working model ??!! so I have had to rework the soft copper blades in situ and have put lots of car filler in the slots  to give them a bit more stability and strength whilst filling to the correct shape. There is a ring about half way down that provides the water seal arrangement  to direct the water in the correct direction , so each blade has to be filed individually to achieve the required result. I am about half way there but having trouble with my neck again... it looks a bit of a mess at the moment but a lot of tyidying and some paint will sort it out....

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on May 27, 2021, 03:00:47 AM
OK so I have now filed the blades to the correct depth and have soldered the retaining ring in place using my 200 Watt iron ...so auto not burn /set fire to the filler !!  the blades are now a bit firmer in place so they can be shaped and bent to profile  ...so this is one of the trickiest jobs so far done and the other parts of the turbine can be tackled .The ring was preheated and tinned before assembly and when there is some black paint it will look ok .....however ...no one will see it as it is enclosed in the housing ?!!!

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: fumopuc on May 27, 2021, 06:46:06 AM
Hi Willy, I am following quietly, but with respect. An impressive job is going there.
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: MJM460 on May 28, 2021, 11:24:30 AM
Hi Willy, an impressive job of a complex fabrication.  You are certainly a master of creativity.

Is that ring only to stabilise the outer edges of the blades?  Or is it also a close clearance wear ring to separate the inlet and outlet parts of the turbine and minimise water bypassing the blades?

MJM460

Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: Dave Otto on May 29, 2021, 01:23:45 AM
Wow, very nice work Willy!

Dave
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on May 29, 2021, 03:20:09 AM
Hi MJM and et al .. Yes the middle ring of the rotor is part of the sealing arrangement and the gate and flume chute are all in close proximity.. here is a pic of the turbine and a drawing of how the different parts all fit together...The gate is provided to stop the rotor from turning to allow maintenance to take place

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on May 30, 2021, 01:43:33 AM
Hi All, here is a video of the turbine revolving in a piece of tube using a small blower... also a plan view pic of the components ...I have  not managed to get a published plan and am just going on the old woodcuts of the Victor turbine from an old Stilwel and Bierce catalogue  and also the removed parts here in Norwich.

Willy

Not a valid vimeo URL
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: crueby on May 30, 2021, 02:07:02 AM
Quite a lot of progress, very interesting machine!


 :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on June 07, 2021, 02:09:36 AM
Hi All ..back in the WKSP. and managed at last to find a plan view of the turbine  flume gate and blades.,,so more work on the gate and this is a close fitting tube over the turbine top flumes ...it is built up using brass plate and some copper tube ...also using my centre finder to mark out the spokes for the top bearing part ..the adjustable blade part allows one to mark out the width of the spokes and then a line for marking out where thedtill centre are for removing the segments ..so .. getting to grips at last ..

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on June 08, 2021, 02:48:49 AM
The parts are now ready to be silver soldered together and then i will have to do some maths to mill out the slots equally equidistant to enable the gate to work correctly...

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on June 13, 2021, 01:23:26 AM
The next job is to attach the gear train to operate the water gate mechanism ..I have got some suitable gears and the gate 5 tooth get is quite deep so I will use a few pieces of the large one silver soldered together to get the correct depth .. the gate part also needs to be milled with slots to line up with the outside flume cover ....

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: RReid on June 13, 2021, 02:09:42 AM
I'm looking forward to seeing that all come together in a working mechanism. Bet you are too!
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: crueby on June 13, 2021, 03:04:44 AM
Impressive!  This project is quite different, very interesting machine!
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: Don1966 on June 13, 2021, 07:00:46 PM
Lovely work Willy very intuitive fabrication ………  :Love:



 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on June 14, 2021, 02:29:32 AM
Hi All, thanks for all the comments and  I have now attached the gear to the gate rim ..I had to use two pieces together to get the depth.. When I silver soldered them together I used a centre punch on the faces to create room for the solder to penetrate  fully .
it is larger than the prototype  as I do not haven gear cutting equipment ..so used what I could find ...it will all be hidden so no one will see it ??!  I will also have to use some JD Weld to fill some of the gaps .

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: Kim on June 14, 2021, 05:20:17 AM
It may not be exactly to scale but it looks really good and gets the point across! :) :ThumbsUp:

Kim
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on June 18, 2021, 02:38:40 AM
The gate is now prepared by milling the slots with a 5/16th slot mill and then sawn out and filed to rectangular shaped openings. The piecing saw is quite old and made in Germany  the different parts are stamped  '77' ? and these may be hand made and numbered to keep the parts together ??

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: RReid on June 18, 2021, 02:35:11 PM
Great looking work, Willy! That saw is certainly a fitting tool to do that kind of work with. I love that hand made wing nut!
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on June 19, 2021, 01:51:31 AM
Hi Ron ,   yes I do like old tools and the local car boots are full of interesting finds ...including this inside centre finder ?!!  .so ,,all the slots are cut out and the lower flume and skirt plate is started on ... This is now starting to come together and becoming interesting and even fun ?!!!
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on June 20, 2021, 03:02:12 AM
The turbine mounting plate is now chain drilled and filed to shape and fitted to the flume ring ...next job is the lower skirt and bottom bearing support . on the prototype the lower bearing was a big chunk of Lignum Vitae...as this was always immersed in water !!!


Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: crueby on June 20, 2021, 03:11:36 AM
Great work!


And I will have my shop elves guarding my old Lignum Vitae deadeyes to make sure your elves don't try to carve them up for bearings!   :Lol:   


Don't think I have seen that wood in the shops, though ebony is close and available, bet you have some of that in your instrument wood stockpile...
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on June 21, 2021, 12:17:37 AM
Hi Chris , thanks and yes I do have copious quantities of ebony , buxus sempervirons, juglans negra, Quercus robugh etc etc ...so more work the turbine parts ... the top flume plate is cut out of brass by chain drilling and sawing etc ..

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on June 21, 2021, 02:39:17 AM
The top flume plate is made and the flume blades now need to be fitted ...

Wily
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on June 22, 2021, 03:41:46 AM
So ..now been trying out how the flume blades will be made and slotted into the main frame ...

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: crueby on June 22, 2021, 03:55:50 AM
Does the gear segment move the flume blades to open and close the openings, or is there another gate to shut off the flow? Very interesting machine!
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on June 22, 2021, 04:12:15 AM
Hi Chris, the outside flume blades are fixed and the gate is the part that is inbetween them and the rotating turbine blades . the gate is the part that has the 4 spokes and they only move the width of the slots .. So  4am and am off to bed !!!..more work tomorrow ..G-night....!!

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on June 27, 2021, 01:54:32 AM
The flumes have now been made and they now need to be soldered into the support plates,,,however holding them all in the correct alignment to slot the plates together will be quite fiddly..about like assembling watches and clocks  together ??!!! I may need a few people to help with this ....

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: crueby on June 27, 2021, 03:15:40 AM
Looks like a good time to put in some small brass screws to hold things for soldering, easy to file off flush.


 :popcorn:
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on June 28, 2021, 03:14:12 AM
Hi Chris , I managed to  get all the flumes in place eventually and bolted the two plates in place and soft soldered everything together.. so everything going to plan ... the next job is the bottom skirt and lower bearing.

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: crueby on June 28, 2021, 03:15:47 AM
Excellent!
 :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: Don1966 on June 28, 2021, 04:33:37 PM
 :Love:



 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on June 30, 2021, 02:55:26 AM
Hi all thanks for the comments and I have now been working on the skirt...this will support the lower turbine bearing...the holes for the part were drilled with the table turned through 90 degrees... however on the graduations  the 90 degree position has the number 15 stamped next to it .. the 30 and 60 degree positions were also stamped 5 and 10  ?? I don't quite know why this old fashioned drill pedestal was constructed like this ??  quite strange ..!!

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: MJM460 on June 30, 2021, 10:24:28 AM
Hi Willy, great progress and an ingenious approach as usual.

Perhaps that drill press is marked like a clock face, 15 min for ninety degrees, hence 5 and 10 for thirty and sixty degrees, before 360 degrees became more standard.  But just a wild guess on my part.

The sailors “three points off the starboard bow” uses compass points of 11 1/4 degrees as far as I can tell, so not six degrees to give 15 at 90 degrees.

Looking forward to the round engine running.  A way to go yet, but I am thinking those blades were the major hurdle and you have that behind you.

MJM460

Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on June 30, 2021, 02:17:27 PM
hi MJM . yes that sounds like a good synopsis  and it does work out !!  although the 5. 10. 15. is on the left hand side ?!!  However in the German language  you always say the time differently   such as half to six rather than half past six .... I think ...

Good to hear from you and I have been using my thermometer to check the bath water temp ..and have found that during the winter the boiler delivers hot water at only 118  119 degrees F. however at the moment in summer the boiler delivers it at about 132 degrees F at the same setting ?? I usually aim to get the temp to about 106 degrees so I don't scald myself !!!..thismay all be due to the ambient temperatures of the water supply and the air temperature ...

Thanks
willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on July 01, 2021, 02:59:49 AM
The bottom spider has been turned up from a recycled piece of brass and will be filed to shape and screwed onto the skirt

So slowly getting there

willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: MJM460 on July 01, 2021, 12:07:21 PM
Hi Willy, when I was living in Canada, they used to say a quarter of the hour.  I am sure my colleagues did tell me, but I never could get in my head whether this meant quarter to or quarter past the hour.  No doubt some forum members will be able to clarify.

On the water temperature, sounds like a thermodynamics question so I will discuss it  there so as not to hijack your wonderful build.

MJM460


Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on July 05, 2021, 03:32:52 AM
Not a valid vimeo URL
.      hi the turbine is now working  but needs the top cover with the gate mechanism .  the bottom bearing is actually PTFE as this will be immersed in water.

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: RReid on July 05, 2021, 03:43:04 AM
That's fantastic Willy! Congratulations! :ThumbsUp:

Beyond the top cover and gate mechanism, what comes next?
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: MJM460 on July 05, 2021, 04:05:14 AM
Hi Willy, that looks great.  With the higher density of water, it will develop a lot more torque when you have it set up to run on water.  But I don’t know what the flow will be.  But it’s very encouraging that it seems to run quite well on air.

MJM460

Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on July 06, 2021, 02:22:25 AM
Hi thanks for the comments ,The top cover will be built up with various slabs of up cycled brass slabs.
This is the air pump/compressor I have used and once the turbine is spinning I find that it still keeps revolving when I move the pump about 8 inches away from it ?!!! The next jobs are to make the two air pumps and the actual sluices to direct the water ...this will be constructed from perspex as it is a demonstration model . The water levels are 72 in apart and in 20th scale equates to a 3.6" fall . wether or not this will be enough to rotate the turbine will remain to be seen ?!!
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on July 07, 2021, 02:04:20 AM
I have now chain drilled and turned up the top cover and started to profile it . I need to solder on an extra piece of brass to complete the profile with the bolting flange as part of it. this is quite a complex part and I have not drawn it out but am making it from the pictures and the discarded parts at the New Mills site

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: RReid on July 07, 2021, 02:52:52 PM
Yours is a fascinating project, Willy. I enjoy seeing the different techniques you employ, and to such good effect!  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on July 08, 2021, 03:19:16 AM
Thanks Ron , I am quite enjoying this project myself  and continually surprise myself that this is all coming together successfully , the new slab of brass has been soft soldered to the cap. I have sweated the two parts together on my cooker, and there is about 2.5 square inches of soldering area so turning up the profiles has been quite safe .. also when I apply the solder to the parts I always wipe the solder off with a woollen sock and also flick the excess solder off by holding the part and smartly flicking it off onto the floor !!!

willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: crueby on July 08, 2021, 03:30:31 AM
Wow, that really changes the looks. Fascinating to watch it come together.   :popcorn:
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on July 09, 2021, 02:06:50 AM
Hi Chris, thanks and yes it also helps with the functioning of the rotor as it blocks off any air/water escaping from the top.  next is the gate mechanism that I will be sleeping on to workout how I will make it as there is a complicated shape for the gearing to install ??!!!

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on July 14, 2021, 08:45:12 PM
Hi I can't seem to send my posts and when I press "POST". my message disappears and it is replaced with a "NEW TOPIC" box ??!!!
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on July 14, 2021, 08:59:51 PM
Ok I can now send a random pic from my documents folder  ...but not from the Desktop folder ..but my documents folder has now filled up with 1000's of other pics >??!1 but not the ones that I up / in / down / out / loaded ??!!
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on July 14, 2021, 09:06:40 PM
Ok trying ii  again.../Users/robertbailey/Documents/IMG_2416 (2).jpeg
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: Admiral_dk on July 14, 2021, 09:12:33 PM
That is rather annoying for you Willy - I hope that you solve this issue too ....

Maybee one of the Admins can see if something is wrong in this end ....

Best wishes

Per
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: crueby on July 14, 2021, 09:12:54 PM
Hmmm, new update on your computer, new OS or browser version with some new security 'feature'?  Shop elves hacked your password?  Image too big?

Attaching a photo from here as a test to see if its the forum...
Nope - that worked, sounds like something on your end. Reboot the PC, walk around the block, and try again...
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on July 15, 2021, 09:19:52 PM
Ok Managed to put the pics on eventually

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on July 16, 2021, 03:18:27 AM
so just trying out the gearing for the gate .....looks like It will work ok so now I have the sizes I can cut a steel gear and start on the cover plate .. I now have to export the pics to the desk top rather than the documents  part ..that I have always done !!!

willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: Don1966 on July 16, 2021, 08:34:41 PM
 :Love:


 :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on July 18, 2021, 01:21:50 AM
Hi all and thanks Don, The next part to make is the gate gearing housing ...this will be quite difficult to get right and accurate !! I have located the centres of the gear shaft in both parts of the flume assy and the top cap. The gear housing is in two parts bolted together and the bottom part will be fitted to the top cap and secured with soft solder and lots of jd weld ..perhaps as all the profiles are quite intricate  !!
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on July 21, 2021, 01:18:57 AM
Hi All..busy having to do my Editing duty for a local magazine at the moment. but just wondering what this large ejector tank is called . it is the last remaining part at the local Trowse pumping station built in the 1860's ??

Thanks ,Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: crueby on July 21, 2021, 01:34:21 AM
That is a force chamber. At least that's what it's called over this side of the pond. The top half-ish is full of air, it evens out the pressure pulses in the water coming out of the pump since the air will compress and expand as the water pulses from the pump. The Holly and Allis pumps I'm working on have them on the output sides of each pump, also one on the intakes. Well water pumps on houses have chambers like that too, they reduce the hammering effects.


Chris
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on July 21, 2021, 01:48:56 AM
Hi Chris , thanks for this ..I was in a discussion with someone that no idea about it outthought it was a "regulator" working on a vacuum ?!! I tried to correct him and called it an ejector  so thanks and I will explore further..
Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: crueby on July 21, 2021, 02:54:00 AM
Willy, the website for the big pumping engines in Cincinatti have a great set of videos here:
http://cincinnatitriplesteam.org/gcww_videos.htm
Look at the video number two, it gives a great explanation and diagrams of how the force chambers work.
Chris
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: MJM460 on July 21, 2021, 04:11:17 AM
Hi Willy, it’s a bit hard to follow the piping to be sure just where it is, but I’m with Chris, it’s a pulsation dampener which dampens the pulsations due to the unsteady flow through the reciprocating pump cylinder.

If only one, most likely on the discharge side, but can be required on the inlet side as well in some circumstances.

Looks like I had better hurry up a bit with my reply to Chris’ challenge.  I have done the maths, and some drawings so it’s time I started posting.  All will be made clear!

Great progress on that turbine.

MJM460

Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on July 22, 2021, 03:50:55 AM
Hi MJM and Chris  thanks  for the video and more info with the name ..and I will do further research soon !!..

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on July 23, 2021, 02:55:12 AM
Hi All , more work on the engine and the gate gear flange has been worked out and it has two parts bolted together... so two slabs of brass are soft soldered together ready to machine together to get the bolt holes and shaft position aligned ...when machined the parts will be parted ( Etymology )??

Also the large force chamber / pulsation dampener are simply referred to by John Farey in 1827 Vol 1 as an   air vessel ???!! This is an etching from 1803

Willy

Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on July 25, 2021, 01:22:22 AM
I have now decided to make a perspex part to work out exactly the positions and dimensions for this quite difficult component


Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: crueby on July 25, 2021, 01:52:53 AM
Great way to do it - optically clear brass!

By the way - what is that many-armed protractor/center finder-thingy in the picture?
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on July 25, 2021, 02:49:16 AM
Hi Chris , this is my home made centre finder..the other arm is movable in and out and also revolves , it is used to mark out the width of spokes that could be taperd. it can also be used to scribe the line when chain drilling for the spokes. first it is used to mark the centre line and the first spoke line and then moved 180 degrees to mark out the other side of the spoke .. it has been both quick and useful and I have not seen another like it ??!!!! The protractor part is to get the correct angle ..but was made with shim brass instead of something more durable !!

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: RReid on July 25, 2021, 04:12:14 AM
That is a wickedly clever piece of kit!
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on July 30, 2021, 03:13:50 AM
Hi Ron , Yes I did make this quite a few years ago and it has been very useful ...I havenowstarted on the brass fitting and need to now make up some filing buttons to get the profiles right ...I also need to make the gear properly however it only rotates about 1/4 of a turn ... The bottom part will be machined to fit the cap and the other part is bolted in place with 9BA bolts

Also an English and American small ratchet devices for difficult to get at parts

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: crueby on July 30, 2021, 03:48:44 AM
Haven't seen that kind of ratchet screwdriver in many years, parents had a similar one. Are you going to file out the gear teeth? Even for just a few thats impressive. The filing buttons will be key for that.


 :popcorn:
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on July 31, 2021, 03:41:30 AM
Hi Chris , yes I got these from a car boot sale !!! The drives are pozidrives rather than square though    So more work on the top cap component by making the filing buttons and turning down the top cap. Have started to remove metal by sawing and filing , keeping the file dead square so as to keep the circular profile

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: Roger B on July 31, 2021, 08:04:23 PM
Excellent  :praise2:  :praise2: it's a fascinating machine  :wine1:
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on August 02, 2021, 01:48:38 AM
Hi Roger thanks and this is something completely new for me !!
more filing using the filling buttons..so getting there !....Also sometimes I try and post  posts but if the internet is poor it does not go through and I lose all the text that I have written ??!! so is there a way of saving texts on the computer whilst waiting for the portal to open ??

Thanks
Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: crueby on August 02, 2021, 02:00:07 AM
Before I hit the 'post' button on a long post, I usually select all in the text window and right click to 'copy' it. That way if something bad happens on the post, I can either just paste it back into the window and try again, or paste it into a Word or Notepad app and save it that way.
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: RReid on August 02, 2021, 02:25:09 AM
I usually write my entire post in a word processor (I use OpenOffice), including pasting in the image links. When satisfied, I save a copy, then copy&paste the whole shebang into the forum's editor, do a Preview to make sure the pictures are right and a final proofread, and if satisfied with that, then hit Post. That's for the long, build log type posts; for replies like this I just bang away in the editor.
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: Kim on August 02, 2021, 05:26:33 AM
I do what Ron does, but happen to use Word for typing up my posts.

For replies, if they get very long I copy them into Notepad after I've typed them.   I find that periodically my posts are denied (I get some kind of 403 error or something) and I have to clear my cache and re-open my browser.  Then I can post.  And when this happens, I'm HAPPY that I saved my post in Notepad.  (Alternately, I'm peeved that I didn't take the time to save it in Notepad!)

Kim
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: MJM460 on August 03, 2021, 10:12:35 AM
Hi Willy, you are certainly demonstrating your skilled eye and hand with a file on that part.  It’s great watching it appear out of a few little pieces and come together in the final form.

I am another who types long posts in a word processor, in my case, Pages on an iPad.  I just let them build up in one document until I decide too many pages and start a new file with a sequential number in the name.  It avoids having too many difficult to find separate documents.

MJM460

 
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on August 04, 2021, 02:27:50 AM
Thanks everyone for the info and I will explore all my options ..cheers.. The gear housing part is filed out and I use a saw to remove quite a lot of the excess material ..the next job is to fit it to the top plate 

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on August 06, 2021, 04:09:31 AM
The gear housing is now soldered on to a plate with some of the parts sawn off to speed up the machining. the top cap has a vertical face and a horizontal face and these have now been turned true on the lathe faceplate ... I now need to make a template to turn the curved part ..actually I shall make two templates .one from the cap and the other to fit that to check up the turning process.
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on August 07, 2021, 04:34:50 AM
The templates have been made and the curved part turned to shape..this was domne by turning the face plate by hand to continually check the curve . The part was then filed smooth with the curved riffling file . the part was then screwed and soldered in place ..just needs some JB weld to fill the gaps .I also made a quick backstop for the topside .
Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: RReid on August 07, 2021, 08:21:05 PM
Looking great, Willy. I really enjoy following your work, and learning from the different techniques you use.  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on August 08, 2021, 03:02:05 AM
Hi Ron thanks ..however I do make it up as I go along and I do spend a lot of time thinking about how to do each part ... So the gate housing is soldered on the cap and it has been milled flat to take the top bearing cap  so itisnowall together and just needs tidying up and JB welding
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: crueby on August 08, 2021, 03:37:36 AM
An impressive assembly, fascinating to watch along.


 :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on August 17, 2021, 03:13:53 AM
 Thans Chris, and more work  ...ihave been tweaking everything to male the motion smoother and have made a perspex box to see how it will perform at scale size   1/20th ...Also some random tools from the car boot sale..an old tool that looks like a device to hold screws in place like the more modern one in the pic ?? there is stamped on it LONDON H/H. ??  so Holtzappfel   perhaps .  And a lovely multi tool   with indistinct woods on it ...BRITTON    MASS  USA. plus more ...also on the central rod   PAT  NOV 29   93.  so quite old . it has a Brazilian rosewood handle  so it will have to stay in the UK !!

willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: MJM460 on August 17, 2021, 04:35:08 AM
Hi Willy, I like the Perspex box idea for the demonstration.  I assume you have a cunning plan to collect all the water at the bottom!  And perhaps even return it to the top.  It will be interesting to get an idea of how much torque you get from the head you are able to provide to the turbine.

Have I understood correctly that the turbine is intended to drive air compressors for the sewage lift system?  I assume you will have to extend the drive shaft, and the blade adjustment gear shaft to above the water level. 

MJM460

Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on August 19, 2021, 03:22:03 AM
Hi MJM , Yes the turbine drives an air compressor that pushes the sewerage reservoirs effluent over the hills and then the syphon takes over and empties the reservoir  ready to fill pagan from the houses nearby .. also I have filed a square on the gate and turbine shafts and will fit long rods to the top of the perspex housing to operate the gate and show the turbine spinning  the actual scale height of the water flow should be about 3"..so we will see what happens !!? . I have used this hardened steel shaft gripper to file the squares and this was made by a Mr Broom some time ago ...so thanks to him !! also I have found the makers details of the nifty multitool made over a hundred years ago ....

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: Don1966 on August 19, 2021, 04:19:00 AM
Still with you silly awesome work…. :Love:



 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on August 20, 2021, 03:00:33 AM
Hi Don thanks ...and the S button is quite close to the W button  !!!! :lolb: So the two rods are fitted with the square section ferrules and now ready to have the water test ... it works ok on air but I dont know about fluid dynamics but will find out soon ?!!!  I need to seal all the  perspex joins and will need to find something that will come apart afterwards ..??

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: MJM460 on August 20, 2021, 01:32:05 PM
Hi Willy, you might also need a bit of a spout to guide the outlet into a bucket.  A bucket and a stop watch is an essential tool for investigating fluid flows.  Would some electrical tape on the inside corners of your tank seal it well enough until you are ready for a final assembly with a sealant?

MJM460

Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on August 21, 2021, 02:19:33 AM
Hi MJM ,..Ihave now sealed the corners and put it in the bath above the water level then used a bucket to pour the water into the tube ..but..nothing actually happened  it did try to rvolve but no continual movement .. the water just poured out of it instantly .?? so may have to lookup  fluid dynamics and recreate the actual water channels and have a continues head of water flow as in a river situation ??!!!

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: MJM460 on August 21, 2021, 08:47:54 AM
Hi Willy, over the bath is a good idea, but not turning?  That’s disappointing. 

I am not sure that channels will make the difference, though it may be worth trying some fixed guides around the inlet to encourage a bit of pre-swirl but those gates are supposed to direct the water tangentially onto the blades, and the reaction on the blades should turn the wheel. 

I presume you did the obvious and checked that the rotor turned easily when you spin the shaft with your fingers?

Did you get any level build up or was the water flow running through as fast as you poured?  And did you try with the vanes nearly closed as well as at a few partly open positions?  Those gates are also called variable nozzles, which are supposed to squirt the water at the blades in a tangential direction, so you may need to get a foot or so of water in the tower before easing them open a little.

Obviously difficult as always to tell without actually seeing what is happening, but I would be looking closely at the how the water flows past those blades.  I really expected it to turn well enough.  Hopefully nothing major.

MJM460

Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on August 22, 2021, 01:48:33 AM
Hi MJM, there has to be some clearance for the gate to move smoothly laterely and vertically so perhaps too much ....so I will continue with the rest of the build and think about this  Also there's a sluice gate to adjust the river inlet level  ??

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: john mills on August 22, 2021, 10:10:37 AM
Hi
this has been a fascinating project .i wonder if tipping water in from a bucket causes too stronger currents that
the vains cannot guide the flow properly .could you block of the out let and fill the tank.then unblock the out let
and see if the flow is more like what happens at the river.on the full size.the sluce gate may control the flow as more as desired.
John   
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on August 24, 2021, 02:21:33 AM
Hi John , thanks for the advice and I will see what else I can do ..

Thanks
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on September 02, 2021, 02:41:02 AM
I have now been thinking about making this work and have decided to make the water way flow more like the real thing .. I have been making it all out of perspex and will need to find a good flow of water . If I was able to find a source of practical
fluid dynamics info that would be good ... So ..I have quite a few 4 BA screws to tap and I have used this drill to achieve this ..also I have this screwdriver to quickly get the screws in ... I have also been busy blocking up the broken windows of the local  sewerage pumping station  with sheet steel to stop all the kids and people breaking in and smashing the place up ....

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: MJM460 on September 02, 2021, 12:34:55 PM
Hi Willy, it sounds like you have been busy at the museum.

I’m sorry to hear that you have not made more progress on getting the turbine working.  I think you are on the right track, having a look at the fluid mechanics, although the right books on the subject are pretty heavy going.  Someone may have a more readable suggestion than the ones I have.

Let me try and make a brief Summary.

Basically, I think you will find the important clues in two of the drawings you have posted, in particular in your post #55 and post #53.

The one in #53, image 2738, shows the key stator section.  Those gates and vanes form the inlet nozzles to the turbine.  I know they are rectangular, but that section shows the smooth transition through an ever decreasing passage width, with sharp edges and shaped for a smooth flow, and directed into the cups of the rotor in a smooth manner.  The water flowing through these gates is accelerated to much higher velocity than the water in the broader inlet channel.  This jet of water has considerable momentum, and the rotor cups deflect the stream and direct it down and back.  The change of momentum (momentum is a vector, so change of direction is a change of momentum) causes a force on the rotor cup so the rotor rotates.  Think about the jet out of a hose nozzle if you try and deflect it with your hand or a flat board.  Turning the jet 180 degrees with a cupped hand or bowl gives more force than changing the direction 45 or 90 degrees with a flat plate.

To show how important the velocity of the stream is, it is interesting to discover that when a full size hydro turbine is being slowed by closing the gates, the rotor initially spins faster due to the increased velocity, before it eventually slows due to the reduced water mass flow when the gates  close further, especially if the turbine is not loaded.  Really upsetting for the young engineer who meets the issue for the first time.

When I look at the diagram in post #55, I see the important shape and direction of the stator parts that form those nozzles, it looks pretty good to me.  Compare the cross section of your gates with that sketch.

When I look at the sketch in post 53, image 2207, you have shown the direction of the water flow into the rotor, but the blade angles in that sketch are not consistent with that sending that water in that direction.  The components you have labeled “flumes” in that sketch appear to be directing the jet radially inwards, so most of the force will just be against the central shaft.  Just as much force, but not as good at producing rotation.  Some gates may actually be trying to turn the rotor backwards, depending on the exact spacing.  I’m not sure which sketch best represents your stator parts as you have made them.

I think your rotor looks pretty good, I think if you can get the inlet gates and guides to send a jet in the right direction, it will go well.  That was a huge amount of work, and I think the shape is pretty good.

Remember Newton’s observation/law that a body continues in a state of uniform motion in a straight line unless acted upon by an external force.  It is momentum that is the property that quantifies how much force is required.  Momentum is mass times velocity.  That Newton’s law is now expressed as the law of conservation of momentum, which is as universally true as the law of conservation of energy.

The key is to maximise the mass times velocity of the water, and direct it in the right direction against the cups of the wheel.

I hope that is a help to your understanding of how the turbine works.  I am sure you will have questions, but let me know if it makes sense.

MJM460

Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on September 03, 2021, 03:17:28 AM
Hi MJM,Thanks for this ..really interesting and informative ... the design of these turbines date back to the late19th century so although they had all the maths they possibly were not able to comprehend all the finer points of fluid dynamics..?  So I am making the sluice parts with my Meccano to the dimensions of the full size prototype but I dont know about scaling everything down ?? there is quite a lot of space around the turbine but this could be filled in if necessary

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: RReid on September 03, 2021, 03:33:43 PM
Hi Willy. Your red handled brace is just like the one I have, which had originally been owned and used by my carpenter/cabinet maker Great-grandfather. It's served me well, most often as a cordless screwdriver as in your pic.
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on September 04, 2021, 02:59:26 AM
Hi Ron , yes old tools are cool and I have been collecting all my life ?!!!!   So more work on the almost finished sluice  and the advantage of using perspex and Meccan is that you can see where to drill the holes !! I have been comparing some of the old drawings and there are quite a few differences between them ..so we will see what happens ... I might wait for a thunderstorm to produce a constant steady water flow !!
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on September 16, 2021, 01:42:03 AM
More work on the sluice box and it needs sealing to be water tight. I shall take it to the local carwash and use the high pressure water hose to see if that will make the turbine rotate ??  also I have got a couple of flywheels to modify for the engine set up

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on September 18, 2021, 03:03:52 AM
I have started on the flywheels and there are a pair of compressors driven from the turbines.. However the pairs only seem to have one that has an extra balancing part between two of the spokes ??  also on one set the balanced wheel is the one closest to the turbine unlike the other set where it is furthest from the turbine ??  I can only visit the building occasionally so I will have a look to see if the compressors are 'handed'..!! and the balance weight is on the other side ??

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: crueby on September 18, 2021, 03:33:57 AM
The balance weights are interesting, I can see them on three of the four flywheels.


A fascinating project!


 :popcorn:
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: crueby on September 18, 2021, 03:40:11 AM
Just looked back at your early posts on this build. If you look in img_122 and img_133, the two together show all four flywheels have counterbalance weights. Two at the top, one on the left, one on the right sides vertical.
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on September 18, 2021, 04:00:30 AM
Hi Chris , Yes you are right.. There must be some explanation for this ...It may be that the connections on the crankshafts have been disconnected at some point ?!! it is now 4 am over here so will look closer tomorrow !!
Thanks
Willy.
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: Roger B on September 18, 2021, 07:55:42 AM
If they are two cylinder reciprocating compressors I would expect the cranks and hence the balance weights to be at 90°. Each flywheel will counterbalance the crank nearest to it.
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on September 19, 2021, 01:32:45 AM
Hi Roger, thanks and yes I can see that now ..this is the same on a locomotive of course where the driving wheels share the same axle..
I am now profiling the flywheels with files of course !!  One of them has this strange defect that looks as though there is a break in the spoke , however I have managed to file most of it away ..although there is still some evidence on it ...this will be filled and then painted

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on September 30, 2021, 02:07:27 AM
Hi Back to work on the engine  I have been filing the spokes , and there are quite a few hard places so quite difficult to get right ...also I  have been busy getting the MOT for my van  welding  and pop riviting etc etc but it has passed with quite a few advisories !!! and when the chap was filling out the form  he was saying out loud what he was writing... brake hose ...thats normal,  wheel bearing ...thats normal.   oil leak....thats normal    shock absorbers ...thats normal   ?? so when I asked him if he was writing down everything  he said 'oh no ..its just that it is a 56 year old Morris Minor  !!!!

I have also got some gears for the engine but they are 2 mod rather than .6 mod which is more to scale ...

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on October 01, 2021, 03:43:40 AM
The flywheel is now complete with the counterweight in place. I have used another piece of cast iron from a fireplace. this is to keep it in place when the temperature changes . it is carefully filed and when the fitting begins where the part is tight leaves a shiny witness mark ...this is then filed away until the part is really snug..it is the filed to thickness and lactated in place...

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: crueby on October 01, 2021, 03:48:16 AM
Flywheel looks good!
On the real machine, is that a row of identical individual pump engines all on one shaft, or did they operate individually? Is there a single turbine connected to all of them, or does each have a turbine wheel?
EDIT: Just looked back at the first coupl eposts and think I have answered my own question - it mentions two turbines each driving a pair of pumps, with steam engines as backup power. That adds a new question - will you be modeling both the turbine and the steam sides of things? Quite a neat pump house, you are fortunate to have it so close to home!
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on October 01, 2021, 03:59:48 AM
Hi Chris ..there are two turbines and there are two air pumps on each turbine  with two flywheels ,  so 4 pumps in all , The pumps are out of phase and the counter weights are in a different place ..As there are 6 spokes on the flywheels the weights are not 90 degrees apart so I am going to have to investigate this  ?? I am not able to get in the place at the moment and the cranks are covered up so I can't quite see how the orientations are  ??!!

Thanks for asking and have just looked at you Utube video .....looking great. hi The steam engines are no longer there but the photo shows them in the building . However I cannot see how the  eccentrics would fit on the crank shaft and the valve rods would be really long to reach the cylinders ??!!


Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: Admiral_dk on October 01, 2021, 11:21:07 AM
Hi Willy

It could be down to making the flywheels the same and having the 'slots' in the crank 90 degrees apart .... though I'm not sure looking at the pictures.

Per
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on October 02, 2021, 02:50:06 AM
Hi Per, Yes the 2 weights are 90 degrees apart and the 6 spokes are offset by 30 degrees .! ,, as shown in the photo ...so not quite symmetrical ?!!  so like locomotive driving wheels they will have to be quartered...
thanks for looking in

Willy

Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on October 05, 2021, 02:10:39 AM
Ok So the flywheels are finished with the counter weights  and the next job will be the crank assembly.......

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on October 06, 2021, 01:12:44 AM
I have been testing the turbine with air through the sluice opening with all the joints sealed but it still did not rotate , so i put the air hose just next to the inlet flumes and I really just took off !!  here is the video ....

Willy.
Not a valid vimeo URL
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: Don1966 on October 06, 2021, 04:18:41 AM
Awesome results Willy and the flywheels look great. Still following you mate!


 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steamer on October 06, 2021, 04:35:21 AM
That's cool!!!    coming right along there!   

Now that was just testing on air?    Was that originally a pelton wheel?

Dave
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on October 07, 2021, 02:55:43 AM
Hi Thanks don and Dave .. yes just working on compressed air and pointed directly in the turbine .  It did not work with the compressed air actually just connected to the sealed sluice  so I may take it to the carwash and use the high pressure water jet to see if that will work.   As this is a scale model ,...some things need scaling up as well as down  ???!!! I am not sure of the exact name for this type of turbine and it was made about 130 years ago  ??   




Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: crueby on October 07, 2021, 03:12:46 AM
Hi Willy,
I'd be very careful with the pressure washer - those things can put out a heck of a lot of force at very high speed when up close. I'd take a different approach - run it with water as usual through the main sluice, but supplement it with a clear piece of tubing run up close to the turbine like you did with the air, and have that pushing water at a higher speed, more like a garden hose nozzle flow than a pressure washer. That should give it the extra push needed for the scaled down blades without going crazy like a pressure washer does, and let you scale up the speed/flow to just enough. The clear hose could be pretty well hidden down the bottom of the sluice way.
Just my two pence worth!

Chris
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on October 07, 2021, 03:20:00 AM
Hi Chris ok thanks for that   and yes water has so much more energy in it than air  ..so will take your advice and proceed gingerly

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on October 13, 2021, 02:21:07 AM
I am now starting with the compressor parts and am making the base to mount the parts on using perspex rather than Meccano. I do have lots of perspex to play with and it is rather easier to work. I have been drilling the holes then sawing the waste away with the Abrafile ,held in the saw with its special clips.I have now got to work out all the missing dimensions !!The nights are now drawing in so am getting more time in the workshop. The Norwich Model Engineers are appearing at the forum for the Science week festival in a few weeks so will preparing things for that ..I will be taking my small lathe for youngsters to try out so they may get get bitten by the bug !!
Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on October 23, 2021, 02:10:57 AM
Ok So.. I have been busy preparing for the Norwich Science Festival appearance with the local NDSME group displaying our locos and other engines and tools etc etc I have made the build plate for the New mills engine  and also repairing the small IC engine that is owned by the local club ...I have had to mend the inlet port as it was leaking and also trying to get the engine to run for more than a few seconds . I put a balloon on the exhaust to catch the fumes and noticed that whilst doing so if I closed up the exhaust pipe the engine increased in revs and kept running ??!!  so I found the a good way to increase the speed was to adjust the bore in the pipe thereby creating some back pressure ??...,,, also it was quite difficult to get the nuts in place to tighten them so I made this nifty tool ...there is a small piece of studying silver soldered onto a thin piece of brass.. the nut is then screwed onto it and held in place and a spanner is then used to unwind the nut onto the studding...it works really well ...some pics and we are at the Forum in Nch on Tuesday  26th so in 4 days time ... I will take some video to show our exhibits .....

willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: MJM460 on October 23, 2021, 12:20:12 PM
Hi Willy, good progress on that compressor.  I like your approach to real 3-D modelling, rather like the way we used to design oil refineries with scale plastic models.

Interesting observations on that little engine.  I think I will leave that to someone else to explain what is going on.  I think I must have missed something in the explanation.

All the best for the show.  Looking forward to the pictures.

MJM460

Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on November 08, 2021, 02:44:03 AM
Hi All Back at work after lots of other stuff to do ..and i have made some drawings of some of the components . The main bearings have been drawn and then adjusted to look right as I have not been able to gain access to measure everything !!. I have drawn it out on a piece of A3  using inches but there was not enough room to draw it full size so it is a 1/4 full size. I have then drawn a line using the mm rule to measure the 24 inches at an angle ( in blue) ..and then used this to measure accurately all the dimensions to make the parts. So using the perspex just one bearing block was made without the brasses. Looking at the photos the brass bearings are quite involved using 5 separate parts .. also there is no top part to enclose the whole dimension ?? However there is a lot of weight with the two flywheels to keep them in place...  There's also an unusual top cap arrangement that has one end attached with  3 Allen screws to keep the cap in one piece ..?? I dont know if this is the original  or if it is a later repair ?? The engine was made in 1898 and I don't know when Allen screws were invented and first used ?? This can be seen in the last photo

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: crueby on November 08, 2021, 11:57:04 AM
Never seen a bearing arrangement like that!  Looks like they are all like that in your earlier pictures, so it was not a one-off repair on one bearing. Huh.
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on November 11, 2021, 02:41:13 AM
High Chris, yes it is quite unusual  ?? and I was wondering if the top part of the bearing is missing ??   also this is the video of our recent club exhibition here in Norwich   more drawings and the bearing parts to follow soon....

Willy

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Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on November 11, 2021, 01:48:05 PM
So the bearing parts have been made from different colours of perspex and I like to do this to work out the best way to manufacture them in metal..I have drawn out how the parts fit with an isometric to make it clearer . Rather than have a top and bottom brass as is more common it would appear that the crankshaft with the flywheels attached were hoisted into the bearing blocks and then the side pieces were put in afterwards and then pushed sideways and the spacer inserted and then adjusted with the side bolts ..?!!!

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: crueby on November 11, 2021, 02:50:48 PM
Those bearing parts go together a lot like a multi-piece steel mould, interesting.
 :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: MJM460 on November 12, 2021, 05:11:08 AM
Hi Willy, the nice 3-D modelling continues!

Also, thanks for showing the video of your club exhibition.  Did you also take any still shots of some of the engines?

MJM460

Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on November 13, 2021, 05:17:21 PM
Hi MJM ,  no other pics sorry   am out of action at the moment ...had a nasty fall on my knees yesterday. so out of action for a bit !!
Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: Admiral_dk on November 13, 2021, 06:06:15 PM
I hope you will recover soon Willy - get well  :cheers:
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on November 29, 2021, 06:06:23 PM
Hi all , me and my knees are now better and back in circulation ... I have now started on the steel bearing blocks and I managed to break off a drill in one of the bolt holes so I have drilled through from the other side to push out the broken drill and will use a long bolt instead of a stud... thinking about this I could use long bolts in all of the holes rather than risking breaking a tap off ??!! the bolts would then be locktited in place . I milled the curved part on the foot in the vertical mill and them filed the side profile in the vice using hardened steel guides to guide the file to the correct depth. I also use the hardened steel jaws to good effect... At a local carrot I found a large pile of twisted brass  'Olivers' with half inch flats that might be usable to someone for a showman engine ... they are 32" long and quite a lot in the pile ? The person selling them lives in Halvergate  Norfolk  and I have her email if anybody local would like purchase them , they are old stair rods and come with the clips and turned end parts .  good to be back in the WKSP again ,after my enforced 'holiday'  ..

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: Roger B on November 29, 2021, 06:12:52 PM
Glad you are back in working order  :)  :)  :ThumbsUp:

As ever enjoying the mixture of good model engineering and history lessons. I hope to meet you one day as our daughter is in Norridge but I think we have just been banned from travelling again  :(  :(  :toilet_claw:

My father once twisted some square brass rod for his model showman's engines.
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: crueby on November 29, 2021, 06:26:00 PM
Glad to see you are back again Willy!
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: Kim on November 30, 2021, 05:23:34 AM
Gald to hear your knees are better now, Willy!
Always enjoy your posts :)
Kim
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: EricB on December 03, 2021, 12:21:46 AM
I found this advertisement while looking for something else and thought y'all might enjoy it. This is from the official catalog of the 1885 International Inventions Exhibition held in London.

Eric
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on December 03, 2021, 12:56:22 PM
Hi Eric , thanks for this ,  interesting to have the London address .... my internet/ internment is now not working so have to find a cafe to communicate ... really annoying

Willy


Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on December 07, 2021, 04:36:20 PM
Hi All, still no internet  {{{Talk Talk }}}. and making progress with the bearing blocks. some of these parts are quite small ,,,and making the clamps would involve even smaller parts being made and used just once or twice !! I have found this softish green felty stuff that can hold small parts quite successfully whilst filing to shape and finishing....

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: crueby on December 07, 2021, 04:38:22 PM
Watching along Willy!  Hope they get your internet fixed soon.
 :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on December 09, 2021, 05:32:48 PM
Hi ... so ..the other bearing block is made ....I have used 10BA bolts with one size smaller heads from EKP. they only make standard(metric) size nuts so I had to file them down ...I made a threaded rod to do this and when I came to filing them I used a triangular double sided file so I could file both flat at the same time by using each end of the file separately so the nut would not unscrew itself off the thread .................still no internet so I have changed my provider as the new..new.. modem Router did not work ??? the computer recognised the new router number and let me type in the relevant pass word   (via the internet ???). but would not let me log into the internet  ???????????????  confusing ..but it is TALK TALK ******************

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on December 19, 2021, 02:54:22 AM
Ok so back to work  and I have my internet back after  18 days .........I have started on the crank webs , I have bolted two pieces of 1/4" plate together to drill .,ream and thenfile up two faces . The two parts were then sawn off the parent matierial and then two 1/4' pins were inserted to file the two parts together to the correct dimensions . I have also been drawing more of the parts . I have also been looking at my sets of castings and found this set for the Stuart Turner centrifugal pump !! I don't think they produce these anymore and I possibly won't be making it ?!!

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: crueby on December 19, 2021, 03:19:03 AM
Great to have you back. That arched support looks like it will be interesting to make.
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on December 19, 2021, 02:06:12 PM
Hi Chris , thanks ,yes ..quite intricate and there are two of them so they will have to turn out exactly the same ..the other one has an extra part that supports the bevel gear coming up from the turbine ....

willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: Roger B on December 22, 2021, 12:04:06 PM
Excellent fabrication as ever  :praise2:  :praise2:  :wine1: There was some discussion on here about the Stuart centrifugal pumps a week or so ago.
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on December 22, 2021, 01:59:02 PM
Hi Roger , yes that is what prompted me to dig them out !!  More work on the crank  and I have found that on the crank /piston rod bearings the hole for the oil is either at one side or the other ?? Is this a mistake or something to do with flywheel weights being at different places ??

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: crueby on December 22, 2021, 02:16:18 PM
The con rod ends look to be made from four pieces, those center two (one with the oil hole) maybe just got assembled backwards in on case?
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on December 23, 2021, 01:29:13 AM
Hi Chris ,yes a bit strange but this is what has happened over the 70 years of the life of the working machine  ?/ The crankshaft is now completed and the next job is the con rod bearing. this is quite a complicated shape to copy as it is a casting  so we shall see what happens ...posibly a built up fabrication rather than machining from the solid ?

willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: crueby on December 23, 2021, 02:54:48 AM
Excellent! Amazing how much different it looks with the first parts on.
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on December 29, 2021, 01:37:40 PM
The big end bearing is now started on .first the drawing, then figuring out how to make it .... the brasses are soldered together and then drilled and bolted together so when the two halves are bored out they don't fall apart !!. This is quite a complicated " casting " to make...The crank pin is the same diameter as the crankshaft so the brasses are just attached there for now. The whole assy is just bolted together with no adjustment provide ...just a single nut  ?!!

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: Admiral_dk on December 29, 2021, 07:26:08 PM
Looks like you have been busy Willy  :ThumbsUp:

I must admit that I can't remember what scale you work to on this one, but it must be quite a bit as the parts don't look very big ....  :headscratch:
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on December 30, 2021, 02:12:47 AM
Hi  Dk  it is 1/20th scale and the crank shaft is 5/16th  or 3.125 " so this should give you some idea of the size...
The brasses are now finished with the correct profile and there is just the oil hole part to attach and then the steel Conrod and the outside keep plate ,...The brasses were made together and the two hollow rods are silver soldered in place.

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: crueby on December 30, 2021, 02:39:01 AM
Nice progress on the bearing end.


 :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: Roger B on January 08, 2022, 09:23:50 PM
Those bearings are quite complex little things  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp:  :wine1:
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on January 08, 2022, 09:59:30 PM
 Hi Roger , yes you are right and I am trying to work out what is actually going on with the crossheads ..? without taking everything apart !!! Here are some pics  I can still not get in there yet  so I am having to guess what is happening with the clues in the pics !!! :-\ :-\
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on January 11, 2022, 02:02:42 AM
I have now drawn up the slide bars and have made a small perspex one to the correct 1/20 size . I have done this to work out how to make the correct ones out of brass as they will be painted . I will do this using a piece of brass bar this will be drilled, sawn and filed by hand so a length of the bar will be held firmly in the vice .... Also I have modified my old drilling machine to make it easier to drill metal with more accuracy. I have made a larger plate to hold the vices and have constructed a vertical bar that the plate butts up to. this enables a longer larger drill to be inserted in the chuck by swivelling the plate sideways and down. when the plate is swiveld back against the vertical bar it will be in perfect alignment...

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: crueby on January 11, 2022, 02:46:15 AM
Like the perspex mock-up, great progress.   :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on January 13, 2022, 03:31:37 AM
So starting on the brass standards for the slide bars .. When I drill pieces of metal in the vice I sometimes use nuts to rest the metal on with the boles in the correct place to drill all the way through. The standards are marked out and sawn and filed to shape and when finished they will be sawn off the stub.   I mark out the dimensions using the parent slab as a datum to continually check the finished dimensions with the digital vernier .

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: RReid on January 13, 2022, 03:10:50 PM
I always particularly enjoy seeing and learning from your "saw and file" techniques, Willy. When I only had the tiny vertical slide for my Taig lathe I did a lot more of that than I do now, and there was satisfaction in it. A different set of "tricks" to learn.
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on January 17, 2022, 02:34:46 PM
Hi Chris and Ron..thanks for the comments and back in the workshop..... I have been really busy with editing the local magazine for the Organic Gardening Group ?!!!     yes , filing up these parts is made easier by using sharp files and using the shape and  type for producing the profiles.. the parts are still joined together and more profiling is done ..

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on January 18, 2022, 03:11:05 AM
The standards are now ready to install with the guide bars that will be attached with 12/13 BA  nuts and bolts >>>

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: crueby on January 18, 2022, 03:18:04 AM
Very nice, would be great jewelry too!
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: Admiral_dk on January 18, 2022, 11:32:14 AM
Fine progress Willy  :ThumbsUp:

I can't remember what scale you are working to - but the parts looks to be rather small  :thinking:

Per
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on January 19, 2022, 02:59:01 AM
 Hi All , so the scale is 1/20th so quite small. I have started on the guide bars and a simple job to saw and file and drill to shape. they are then mounted on the standard with multiple clamps and then the holes are drilled through using an archimedes drill.. these are very handy as they are hand held and will drill thromughmetal quite quickly ... the largest one has a dimple in the top so you can use your chin to hold it in place leaving both hands free..The bottom parts will be made next and then clamped in place and drilled through from above .The bolts are 12 BA  ...so quite a bit larger than 16 BA !!

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: Admiral_dk on January 19, 2022, 12:42:49 PM
1:20 - that explains why the minute details of the surface stands out so much in the photos - and it does make it more dificult for you to make some of the tiny parts.

I haven't seen an Arcimedes Drill before - but I can see the similariies to the "Amerikaner" (as my maternal Grandfather called them), that I have - the difference is that on those you push on the end and holde the middle still.

Good to see progress and you always throw in small things I haven't sen before :ThumbsUp:

Per
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on January 20, 2022, 02:59:00 AM
 Hi Per, Yes the parts are quite small and it is quite difficult to hold the pieces when working on them.. I have made the bottom slide  bars and as they are steel it is easier to use a magnet when holding them and putting them in the vice ! I always carve out the parts from a larger slab of metal which helps a lot and when I drill the holes I remove some of the metal so the drill bit does not get trapped and break off. My larger vice has hardened steel serated jaws  , so when I have to finish filing and polishing I use this small vice . I also have one of those push action archemedies drills that is like those Stanley  Yankee push action screw drivers but a lot smaller. these big yankee screwdrivers also have a left and right action to withdraw screws as well. The slide bars now need a lot of fitting and tidying up ....

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on January 26, 2022, 02:46:24 AM
More work on the slide bars ..there are 4 bolts that affix it to the bed ...however these will be dummy and just one 10BA bolt each end holding it down ..still more to do on them but slowly getting there ...

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on January 27, 2022, 03:21:12 AM
So slowly getting the slidebars finished and  the con rod is next and then the crosshead ...once I have decided how it will all go together. I have bought lots of 12 BA nuts but everyone needs to be re tapped !! so quite time consuming >>>

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: crueby on January 27, 2022, 03:54:09 AM
Lots of little details coming together, looking great.   :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: Don1966 on January 28, 2022, 05:33:26 PM
Love all the detail work Willy and I bet a lot of arm work out with that file of yours…. :Love:


 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on January 29, 2022, 01:40:30 AM
hi don , thanks ..and the secret is to get exactly the right file for the job !!

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: Zephyrin on January 30, 2022, 10:03:16 AM
Hi
 lot of hand works on the slides, supports and bars too, I hope not too hidden in the deepth of the model...
12BA, wow, that make pretty fragile taps...
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on January 30, 2022, 04:01:59 PM
Hi Zephyrin , I do have taps and dies down to 16 BA ?!!!
Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on February 04, 2022, 01:07:48 AM
I am now trying to work out how the crosshead goes together and have made a drawing of what I can see and I will be going back to the engine house next week to photograph and take more measurements ...

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: crueby on February 04, 2022, 02:57:09 AM
Take a big wrench, and send any others there out for snacks while you take it apart...! 

 :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on February 04, 2022, 02:01:04 PM
Yes good idea .. I could also "borrow" the key to get my own cut ..or a piece of plasticine  ?!!!
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: Dave Otto on February 05, 2022, 01:31:09 AM
I still love seeing your drawings, nice work!

Dave
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on February 05, 2022, 03:00:47 AM
Thanks Dave , and I have made a perspex mock-up as to how I think it should go together .. the piston rod will screw into the crosshead and the large nut acts like a lock nut, and the thread does not show and the nut has a recessed portion that goes over the piston rod to make things look neat and tidy !!! the latest drawing is just a sketch and a proper one will be drawn when I have more dimensions..

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on February 08, 2022, 03:02:31 AM
So more work on the crosshead and the crankshaft end is started on and the part is carved out of one piece and when made the bearings are inserted from the inside. it is then offered up to the crosshead and the central pin is inserted through it . this pin is then held in place by tightening up the two nuts either side of it. there is a hole on the top of the crosshead   ?/ for lubrication to the bearings but there must be some internal channels to get the lubricant to the central rod  rather like the drilled holes in a crank on an IC engine.   looking at the photos it looks like there's a brass?? bush between the pin and the slideing part ??  So  a few more pics to see how it all fits ...

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: crueby on February 08, 2022, 03:08:12 AM
Wow, some good work on the perspex version. Ever consider just painting it steel color?!
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on February 08, 2022, 03:40:13 AM
Hi Chris , this is actually about 6 times bigger than the one that will be made !!! and it will be displayed with the finished model to show how it all goes together !!!   Thanks for looking in
Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: wagnmkr on February 08, 2022, 12:30:48 PM
I agree with Chris ... That is nice work with the perspex!
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on February 09, 2022, 01:25:09 AM
HI , Here is the finished item with the slide bars that will have the crosshead made to fit ...so quite small !!!
Thanks for the replies , and I will be back in the engine on Thursday so I will get all the final measurements and lots more photos  :cartwheel: :cartwheel:

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: crueby on February 09, 2022, 01:47:13 AM
Wow, that really shows how much bigger the test piece is!


 :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: Roger B on February 09, 2022, 06:52:57 PM
Your Perspex modelling idea is good  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp: When I started my first engine after my return to engineering I made a trial crankshaft from aluminium as it was easier to machine than moderate carbon steel  :wine1:
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on February 10, 2022, 02:20:51 AM
Hi Roger , thanks and I have a large amount of perspex thanks to Jarrold's  skip !!!  so as the perspex one is 6 X bigger, will it take 1/6th the time to make the small one ??!!!  so can you scale time ??

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: Kim on February 10, 2022, 05:39:30 AM
so as the perspex one is 6 X bigger, will it take 1/6th the time to make the small one ??!!!  so can you scale time ??

Unfortunately, I think build time scales inversely with size!  :Jester:

Kim
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on February 15, 2022, 01:13:59 AM
So .. I have made the slides and they are made from two parts silver soldered together.  before they are joined together the outside part is centre popped to provide a small gap for the solder to penetrate the parts ...  I visited the pump station and took more photos  and one shows the model with the prototype behind it !! also a close up of the slides with a brass part that is surrounding the central pin   ?? however this dose'nt seem to have a function apart from being easy to remove if any wear takes place due to the movement of it .
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: crueby on February 15, 2022, 02:21:17 AM
Great to see it with its big brother.


Could the brass bushing on the crosshead pin be there just in case there is any slight misalignment in the guide to the cylinder? As the guide bearings wear, the pin would lower a fraction maybe.
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: Don1966 on February 15, 2022, 04:39:22 AM
Looking great Willy ….. :ThumbsUp:   I think your about to wear out that file…. :lolb:

 :cheers:
DON
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on February 15, 2022, 12:51:01 PM
Thanks Chris and Don ,  yes that may a good reason , also most of these 19th C engines were pretty well over engineered which is why they last for such a long time ?!!

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on February 18, 2022, 02:13:47 AM
Starting on the crosshead block and I have drawn it out with the dimensions and have started with some 3/8th rod ...this is tapped 6BA and I have drawn out a filing chart to produce the profile. the rod is held in this hardened jig and filed to size using the digital vernier to get the correct dimensions ...

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on February 19, 2022, 02:12:14 AM
The crosshead body is now made  with filing and drilling  and using 12BA bolts . The square drilled holder is handy for swivelling the stock around to get the best angle to saw and file it to size .  managed to survive the 80 MPH winds today but really scary ?!!

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: RReid on February 19, 2022, 02:24:14 AM
Been thinking about you folks in the UK today. Glad you're OK, Willy.
And nice work, as always. :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on February 19, 2022, 02:32:45 AM
Thanks Ron, and I did have quite a few scary moments..
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: Admiral_dk on February 19, 2022, 11:38:35 AM
We where supposed to be hit by it too - but it went by further south - phew.

Several people where killed by it in England, Belgium, France, Holland and Germany as far as I know - so I do understand your worry.
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: Vixen on February 19, 2022, 12:23:20 PM
They recorded gusts of 123 MPH (that's almost 200KPH) at the Needles lighthouse yesterday. That's just across the water (Solent) from us. We suffered no storm damage other than some greenhouse glass. The trees surrounding the house were bending double but luckily non fell. I am so pleased I payed the tree surgeon to thin out the top hamper last summer.

Hope everyone else got through the storm OK

Mike
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on February 19, 2022, 01:44:20 PM
Hi Mike, I am dreading going to the allotment when it stops raining and the wind dies down as I have three greenhouses and several trees ????!! I use'd to know the lighthouse keeper at the Needles  and he was the last one to leave before it went automatic ... He was reminded on closing the door  to "Leave the light on " ...Please .....!!!

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on February 22, 2022, 02:21:12 AM
So the crosshead assembly is now connected to the crankshaft and is checked out for the clearances . the set up has been videoed and everything seems to be working ok ...the flywheels will be fixed with saddle keys at a later date ..


 
New Mills compressor station Norwich
Not a valid vimeo URL

  Anyone

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: crueby on February 22, 2022, 04:15:47 AM
Excellent!
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: Kim on February 22, 2022, 03:17:25 PM
It always feels so good when your pieces fit together the way you imagined they would!  :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:

Kim
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on February 23, 2022, 03:20:03 AM
Hi Thanks Chris and Kim , Yes however there is also ample metal left to enable the fitter to get it right ?!!

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on February 24, 2022, 06:55:27 PM
I have now rigged up the air compressor to the turbine housing and tested set up I will replace the input pipe and make a better seal to get the full effect of the air flow. here is the video and some pics of how it all goes together.

Willy     
Not a valid vimeo URL
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: crueby on February 24, 2022, 07:19:50 PM
Hi Willy,


I'm a little confused as to what turns what. Does the steam engine up top turn the turbine to move water?


Chris
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on February 25, 2022, 02:44:09 AM
Hi Chris , Ok .. The New Mills air compressing station is powered by the turbines tn the lower part of the river ..there is a 6' 6" drop in the water level either side of the building . there was originally 4 steam engines that were used when there was not enough water coming down the river .  As Norwich is surrounded by hills they had to get the sewerage over the highest point to go to the sewerage works a few miles down the river. This was achieved by having large underground tanks that slowly filled up with the effluent. when they were full there was a blast of compressed air that forced the effluent over the highest part of the hill and then the syphon effect emptied the resovoir tank down to the Pumping station at Trowse. the device that triggered this is called a shone ejector.  There is a similar device in the Houses of Parliament in London ?!!.The New Mills building has retained some of the older electrically driven  machinery and these are dotted about the building but not in use any more . The steam engines were powered by the local municipal waste that was burnt in the boilers . The steam engines have since been removed but they can be seen in an early photo. There is also a pic of the two air reservoirs that are filled by the pumps .
I have made some more perspex parts to sort out the turbine gear drive to get the dimensions.
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: crueby on February 25, 2022, 02:50:35 AM
Clever setup - thanks for the explanation!
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on February 25, 2022, 03:02:08 AM
Hi Chris , a few more pics and yes  when the set up used just the power from the river  and then the syphon system it was very cheap to run ?!!

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: ddmckee54 on February 25, 2022, 08:59:02 PM
They pressurized a tank of sewage?  I'll bet that got messy when/where it leaked.

Don
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on February 26, 2022, 02:44:50 AM
Hi Don , possibly yes , as they have been in use for the past 120 years  ??!!It also went through 2 world wars !! Possibly if i read through the last century's newspapers I might find something !

Willy.
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on February 27, 2022, 01:15:41 AM
 so...connecting up the turbine to the crankshaft ..I have made two perspex standards to see how the adjustments will go together ...this is to avoid large or elongated bolting holes to get everything running true.

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: RReid on February 27, 2022, 04:21:55 PM
Getting more and more impressive all the time, Willy! :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on March 01, 2022, 02:47:21 AM
Hi Ron , thanks and a bit more work tonight  fitting the gears together.  Once everything is firmly bolted together then the gears run very freely, also the actual dimensions become clearer and the clearances needed show up !!

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on March 06, 2022, 03:43:31 PM
I am now making the gear standards and will make a template as there are two of them that are sort of identical . I have made a drawing with the dimensions and will transfer them to a piece of brass. The vertical part will have protruding tabs that will hold the flanges in place to be soft soldered together.

willy.
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: crueby on March 06, 2022, 04:35:17 PM
Good progress, those standards will be some fun.   :ThumbsUp:   :popcorn:
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on March 07, 2022, 02:26:18 AM
Hi Chris, yes  however I have done this before with other engines so all will be well!!!  I have cut out a template from double sided PCB board with the fibreglass infill ....I have cut out one of the parts with the tags left on to locate the flanges ... the queen is looking on with approval so I may get that OBE  Soon !!! I have also checked out the clearance for the bevel gear.

willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: RReid on March 07, 2022, 02:32:25 AM
Sir Willy? Sir Steam Guy?. Either way, sounds good!
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on March 07, 2022, 02:49:27 AM
Hi Ron , at the moment it is just servitude Robert ?!!!!

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: Admiral_dk on March 07, 2022, 10:57:19 AM
The first flange looks fine Willy  :ThumbsUp: - did you cut it with a jigsaw ?

Per
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on March 07, 2022, 02:55:07 PM
Hi Per, I cut the PCB template with the small bandsaw .. But the other rather thicker brass plate with the tabs was cut out with chain drilling and hacksaw and files ...
Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on March 08, 2022, 01:57:50 AM
I have made the base part with the slots for the tabs ...I have a very thin pointed file that is .047" thick that is ideal for accurately cutting slots . using the base plate with the vertical part inserted can let the template sit squarely against it to show up where the part needs filing correctly...I thought I had done this already but alas no ...so more filling to get it right !!!

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: crueby on March 08, 2022, 02:08:05 AM
File Guy Willy!


Nice!


 :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on March 08, 2022, 02:14:27 AM
Hi Chris , yes !!  also swarf guy willy !!!

ME
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: ddmckee54 on March 08, 2022, 05:03:18 PM
Willy:

I've got more questions about the tank pressurization.

From the diagram I can see how they are controlling tank pressurization so they can push the sewage uphill, how did they depressurize the tank?  Was that done manually? Unless the sewage tank was small, pressurizing it would be a fairly slow process.  Until that tank is depressurized the inlet check valve won't open so where does the incoming sewage go?  Did they have multiple tanks so that one could be filling while the other is emptying?

Don
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on March 09, 2022, 12:07:44 AM
Hi Don once their pressure forces the effluent over the hill the bucket then starts to fall and then switchhes off the air when the water level goes back down ...the syphon effect is in operation at this time .....

I have just had a covid test and it came back positive ...so I am out of action for a while  ...... :( :(

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: sco on March 09, 2022, 08:09:24 AM
Look after yourself Willy - hope you get over the Covid quickly,

Simon.
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on March 09, 2022, 05:14:45 PM
Hi Simon, I have had my 3 jabs And am feeling a lot better today !!

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: ddmckee54 on March 09, 2022, 07:06:38 PM
Willy:

I haven't had covid but I work with people that have had it.  Hopefully it's as much of a non-event for you as it was for them.

I understand how the tank pressurization works.  What I was getting at is that once the sewage level has been lowered to the desired level in the tank and the air shuts off, how do they de-pressurize the tank?  The tank would be pressurized, from the emptying portion of the cycle, so the inlet check valve will remain closed.  They had to bleed that tank pressure off somehow so the sewage could flow into the tank.

They had mechanical automatic controls for the tank level and I was just wondering if they didn't automate that too.  I wonder if they didn't have a tank vent attached to the same float control?  Pressurize the tank when the sewage level hits the upper limit, and vent the tank when is at or below the low level?  No, that wouldn't work quite right, either.  If you didn't have the vent open the sewage would be trying to pressurize the tank, that would turn the entire sewer system into one big tank.  You'd need to open the tank vent starting when the sewage level hits the lower limit, and close the vent when it hits the upper limit.

They probably had 2 valves controlled by that one float system.  One valve turned the compressed air on when the tank level reached the upper limit and turned it off when the level hit the lower limit.  The other valve would open the vent when the  tank level dropped to the lower limit, and close the vent when the tank level hit the upper limit.  Ezee-peazee, and it could run 24/7 without anybody watching it.  Although they probably did watch it, because it would make a mess when it screwed up.

Don
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: crueby on March 09, 2022, 07:15:06 PM
Would the pressure be more like the way a household toilet works, where once the sewage went over the upper pipe arc the air would just vent out into the same pipe and things would equalize?

 :thinking:   
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: ddmckee54 on March 09, 2022, 08:12:02 PM
Chris:

It could, sort of, but that's atmospheric pressure on both sides.  To use your analogy, the level in the toilet bowl is the same level as the top of the trap.  That's kind of what I meant about turning the entire system into one big tank. The level everywhere would seek the level required to push sewage into the tank.

The level upstream of the tank would have to be high enough to over-ride the pressure in the tank if the tank wasn't vented, and the pressure in the tank has got to be high enough to push a column of water over the top of the hill.  One atmosphere of pressure is about a 33 foot water column.   If you are trying to push the sewage over a 40 foot tall hill, you'd need about 20-ish psi in the tank to do that.  That also means the sewage level upstream of the tank would have to be that high above the tank before it would push past the inlet check valve.

I don't know if they still do, and environmentally I doubt that they do, but I think systems like this one is how sewage ejection used to be done on submarines - just at a LOT higher pressure.

Don
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on March 10, 2022, 01:10:40 AM
Hi All , there may be some missing parts to the diagram to make it simpler to look at ... There is a shone ejector in the House of Commons in London so there may be more info there. I am not an expert in fluid dymamics but some one else could have an answer ?? 
More work on the engine and I have incorporated these tapered pins to hold the parts close together before soldering . Also it provides a back stop to rest the template on to get the final shape correct. so feeling better but still not 100%.

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: RReid on March 10, 2022, 01:43:51 AM
I like your use of those tapered pins. I'm definitely going to file that good idea away for future use. Glad you're feeling better!
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on March 11, 2022, 02:07:11 AM
Hi Ron , yes it does work and what I also do is make the round pin a bit more oval with a diamond hone so the pin can be pushed into the round slot to take up any play. I have now sawn and filed out the narrow top flange ready for bending up and installing into place.

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: crueby on March 11, 2022, 02:21:11 AM
Looking good!  I've seen the tapered pins used to hold clock dials on, never thought to use them for model assembly, good way to draw up parts.   :ThumbsUp:


 :popcorn:
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on March 11, 2022, 02:32:19 AM
Hi Chris  and Ron  I first heard the term  "Necessity is the mother of invention " and this has helped over the past 60 odd years to make things  easier to do .  So this has been filed away in my brain  and then filed away on the actual model !!

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on March 12, 2022, 01:33:43 AM
More work with the separate components ...I am milling out the top middle part that is coloured in yellow  which will be will be inserted and pinned in place prior to soldering ..  I will be changing some of the tabs as I go along after seeing everything in 3 dimensions . I am getting really tired with the covid ..and although I am self isolating at home I cannot do an 8 hour day .

willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: Roger B on March 12, 2022, 05:33:59 PM
I hope you get over the Covid soon  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp: As ever enjoying the fine fabrication  :praise2:  :wine1:
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on March 12, 2022, 10:58:49 PM
Thanks Roger and more work today ..I have completed the central part that slots in the middle and also fashions one of the flanges .... I keep changing about how I am doing all this and it seems to be working .

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: crueby on March 12, 2022, 11:56:30 PM
Coming together great!    :popcorn:
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: Don1966 on March 13, 2022, 01:21:26 AM
Awesome Willy … :Love:



 :cheers:
On
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on March 14, 2022, 12:19:18 AM
Thanks Chris and Don  ,..I have finished the other top flange and the bottom part needs making now... I may use a piece of copper for this part as it is extra malleable and can be easily annealed . I may try and do it one piece but will see how it goes ... there will also be extra parts that will be attached where the bolts down to hold the bearing part secure.  Also to get the taper pins fitting really tight and holding everything in place  I use a small clock broach after the holes are predrilled.

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: propforward on March 14, 2022, 12:28:58 AM
Following along still and enjoying the build very much. Hope you are getting over the covid and feeling OK!
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on March 15, 2022, 01:52:42 AM
Hi Stuart, yes slowly getting better Thanks      and I have made the bottom flange ... I decided on copper and it all went together really easily. I made a template to get the basic size.  The copper was annealed and ti went into shape with no bother . I removed two of the taps /lugs and it fitted really well ..(almost by itself } !!! The central part of the bottom plate will be removed once everything is soldered together.   So I need to make the other one next ......

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: crueby on March 15, 2022, 02:03:10 AM
Great results. Having fewer tabs must have made the fitting easier, and they probably were not needed. Glad you are feeling better too!
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on March 16, 2022, 12:29:14 AM
Hi Chris yes  I have actually changed the positions of the tabs  and everything is lining up ...The bottom flange is now profiled and will be re aneald to bend to shape . I have also made the two bushes for the bolting positions. so all is done and need to clean everything up before soldering .


Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: crueby on March 16, 2022, 01:16:06 AM
The center section around the bearing is interesting, adjustable to fine tune the mesh of the bevel gears?
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on March 16, 2022, 03:15:27 AM
Hi Chris ,Yes there are two of these standards ...one holds the horizontal gear from the turbine in place and the  other one supports the vertical bel gear . The horizontal gear has wooden teeth and the vertical is just cast iron ...this is too prevent sparks coming from it and burning the place down //!!!  some more views of them ...

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: derekwarner on March 16, 2022, 05:01:24 AM
Hi Willy..... I would have thought that a cast iron gear running with a wooden [Iron Wood -1000 kg/m3 ] gear would have a greater propensity to smoulder  :Mad: than cast iron to cast iron gearset sparking??

Would be interested to see some images of the wooden gear & understand the sizes &  :hammerbash: speeds involved

Are those smaller 'truing bolt sets' for alignment of the shafts prior to a lockdown of the bearing block, rather that any form of gear meshing?

What are the 2 angular brass pointed finger pieces? [you highlighted the on the 14th -your .img_7354]

Derek
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on March 17, 2022, 02:50:27 AM
Hi Derek, The idea of useing wooden interface is because there is quite a lot of play between the cast iron meshing and this van produce a lot of sparks , This is more apparent in flour mills where there is a lot of inflatable dust floating around that can quite easily combust.  there is an image of the wooden inserts in one of the pics and when the river is running at full tilt the speed must be quite  fast.  The trueing bolt sets are the only adjustments available In the engine house  and the brass fittings are used to locate fitted used oil containers as the engine house is placed over the river and the total loss lubrication system might polute the river life ...

The standard has now been cleaned up and silver soldered together and held tightly together with the taper pins... the bottom section of the assy has been cleaned up and the middle part removed the holes have been drilled and the top bearing section needs to be made ..

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: crueby on March 17, 2022, 03:24:25 AM
The wooden teeth on one of the bevel gears is also common on a number of brands of the big water pumping engines I've seen, articles from the time state it was done for noise reasons. Probably a number of reasons...
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: derekwarner on March 17, 2022, 04:38:48 AM
Thanks Willy.....yes, grain dust is a combustable fuel  :zap:.......in Port Kembla [our Port] we have an export grain terminal

In a long gone previous life, I was involved in the supply of Demag Taper Rotor Brake Motors to dozens of drives in the Terminal build. Each motor [TEFC] was also required to be supplied as Flameproof with Certification

The grain dust also settled on many sets of crane long travel tracks with the result that the crane longtravel wheels just slipped 
 
Your comments have jogged my  :old: memory  :facepalm: ...and now I do also remember images of acient English water stream driven grain mills with wooden straight peg gear drives ...slow speed, but high torque drives with the power provided by Mother Nature  :Love:

Derek 
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: RReid on March 17, 2022, 02:37:18 PM
That standard is made to a high standard. Lovely work, Willy.  :cheers:
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: ddmckee54 on March 17, 2022, 06:16:29 PM
I would imagine that using the wooden parts was done more for reparability than anything else.  Dust explosions weren't really known or understood.  Remember at this time miner's lamps would have been candles or some other type of lantern using a flame.

With metal & wooden gears, if something is going to wear - or break, it will be the softer wooden part.  When it wears out or breaks, all you need to repair it is the local carpenter, quick and relatively cheap.  If metal gears wear out or break, they need to be replaced.  At great cost in both time and money.
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on March 18, 2022, 02:55:05 AM
Hi Everybody and thanks for the reply and further insights into these bevel gear arrangements, good to get info from actual expierience.  I have started on the bearing part proper and as it is a casting I have been thinking how to do it without too much JD weld !! I have made a perspex maquette to see how it might be made , There is no actual wear or play take-up so that is why there is an oil Bath and a tray to keep up with the run off  !! there is quite a lot to remove from the model and the top curve will have to be fashioned by filing .

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: crueby on March 18, 2022, 03:17:40 AM
Definitely some complex shapes there, will need some thinking to decide on the best order or things to keep a way to hold it.
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on March 19, 2022, 03:33:29 AM
Hi Chris yes , and I have worked out how to do it ... I started with the the two slabs held together  and then drilled for the central shaft on the centre line . the four bolting positions were then drilled and round stubs were turned up to fit ....the  assembly was then sawn roughly to shape and the protruding circular  faces were turned up on a mandrel.  the top part was then sawn and filed to compleat the round profile . the two halves will then have the bolting stubs glued into position . I suppose this is how the original pattern was made from wood and filler .

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on March 20, 2022, 01:14:41 AM
The maquette is finished including the bolts and I made it this way to preserve the vertical face between the bolting flanges as it is on the full size engine. I have some 3/16" brass slab to make the model bearing and the first  job is to sweat them together and mark out all the dimensions for the holes  etc etc
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: MJM460 on March 20, 2022, 11:12:29 AM
Hi Willy, great work on that rather complex bearing support.  I quite like the bearing design with its jacking screws and simple provision for shims.

I like your 3-D design package too.

Glad you are back making progress after Covid.  No good being confined to the shop if you are not up to doing anything.

MJM460
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on March 20, 2022, 04:58:10 PM
Hi MJM, thanks for the comments and yes I have been busy at home doing stuff and am now positively negative on the lateral flow test !!!... Yes I have been collecting a lot of perspex from the local skips and it is easy to file and glue together to make these components ...

Cheers

Willy.
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on March 22, 2022, 02:46:47 AM
I am making the brass bearing and have soldered the two haves together and have turned the ends and drilled the holes  and parted the halves ready for the bolting rods to be turned up drilled and sweated in place...

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on March 31, 2022, 01:48:45 AM
So More work on the bearings  theta and bottom parts are drilled and reamed to take the 4 pins . they are drilled and threaded 10 BA . they topper is then suspended above the lower part and held in position with the threaded rod . the assembly is then silver soldered and then parted and cleaned up . the standard is then drilled to take the bearing and all is looking good ...I now have to make the other one with the extra part for the vertical  gear bearing that is at right angles to the horizontal crank shaft...

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: crueby on March 31, 2022, 03:19:16 AM
Thats a wonderful result, very clever way to hold the upper and lower parts for soldering!   :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: Admiral_dk on March 31, 2022, 11:59:43 AM
Quote
Thats a wonderful result, very clever way to hold the upper and lower parts for soldering!   :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Agreed - brilliant solution  :ThumbsUp:

Per
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: RReid on March 31, 2022, 02:53:19 PM
I learn so many great fabrication techniques from these posts. Thanks Willy! :cheers:
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: Roger B on March 31, 2022, 05:22:45 PM
Looks excellent and a technique to remember  :praise2:  :praise2:  :)
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on April 01, 2022, 01:28:10 AM
Hi Everybody, thanks for the comments and I usually just make the parts with only a few pics ..so I will add quite a few more to show all of the process/!!!  So ..I have started on the other standard  and used sawing, chain drilling and filing techniques. I had to saw a piece of the 3/32nd brass from a larger sheet and I have put a large piece of angle iron in the vice  at an angle and clamped the metal To it and used a 24 tooth saw.... putting the metal at an angle allows the brass to be sawn with  more teeth in contact with the thin sheet. I use an 1/8" drill when chain drilling so there is a lot more room to angle the junior hacksaw around the curve . I also like to save as much metal as possible to use in other projects. I have used a 10" bastard file as this gives a much rougher surface for the silver solder to penetrate. I also make the tabs different widths so the attached parts can only go in the correct orientation .. I made this quick jig to bring the rods for the bearings to the same length , they are pre drilled and tapped eo I can remove them once filed to length...I have also tapered the tabs slightly toaid the fitting of the flanges ...

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on April 02, 2022, 03:13:42 AM
I have now attached the base plate and used some brass tapered pins , these are turned up on the small lathe and I have used a drill chuck as it has a hole all the way through . Also I like to use this chuck as I can open and close it with one hand using an extended chuck key. this means I can use the other hand to hold the turned rod .This is better than needing two hands to hold the two bars to open/close the larger chuck so the rod does not fall out into the swarf and get lost.?!! I have attached the base plate so I can rest the template on it to accurately file the part to the correct shape...the chucks are also colour coded as the chuck keys are different sizes

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on April 03, 2022, 01:19:00 AM
I have installed one of the standards and this is how I saw the plate , it means the saw is kept horizontal so both hands move in a horizontal plane ...

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: crueby on April 03, 2022, 02:18:42 AM
More great progress.   :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on April 11, 2022, 02:38:58 AM
Hi all just had a weak week off ..managed to put my back out after asthmatic coughing bout !!  I have now been making the other standard and this will have the extra vertical bearing attached ..I have also made a new video with the first bering in place.I have yet to mill the keyways to join everything up and there is still the pump to make

Willy
Not a valid vimeo URL
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: propforward on April 11, 2022, 02:48:02 AM
Sorry to hear about the coughing fit, but everything else is coming along great!
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: RReid on April 11, 2022, 02:50:53 AM
Oww!! You've been having a rough time of it lately. Glad you're feeling better now and getting more great work done!
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: crueby on April 11, 2022, 02:59:01 AM
Hope you feel better soon, the stands are looking great!
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on April 11, 2022, 03:00:36 AM
Hi Thanks  Ron & Chris
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: MJM460 on April 12, 2022, 01:07:34 PM
Hi Willy, glad you are back on your feet. A sore back is never fun.

Interesting gear arrangement.  Normally I would have expected the turbine to be the higher speed machine which would be geared down to drive a much slower reciprocating compressor.  It would be interesting to know more about the operating speeds back when they were in operation.

The excellent work on the standards continues.  You haven’t lost your touch with those files.  Very ingenious fabrications.

MJM460

Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: ddmckee54 on April 12, 2022, 07:06:02 PM
Willy:

Your small lathe looks an awful lot like a Unimat, is it?  If it is, what tool post are you using?

Don
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on April 13, 2022, 09:26:26 PM
Hi Don , It is a unimat lathe and the QC tool post came from RDG Tools however I did have to angle grind about 1/4" off the bottom to fit . I will put a pic on my post tonight

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on April 14, 2022, 12:54:57 AM
Hi MJM  thanks for the comments and the gears are actually concealed by lots of health and safety covers so I have not been able to actually measure the sizes. What I can see is there are about 46 teeth on the horizontal one. I have used standard propriety gears with only 30 teeth. As this model is purely representative I have used some artistic licence !! however I dont have a gear cutting machine and as there are all those wooden teeth that would be a challenge !!. I could redo them however at a later date ...So  thanks for looking in

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: ddmckee54 on April 14, 2022, 05:33:35 PM
I did have to angle grind about 1/4" off the bottom to fit

I'm not surprised that you had to lower it.  The listing said it fit a Unimat 3 or 4, which have higher centerlines than the DB/SL that you have.  I was just wondering where you got a steel QC tool-post.  The QC tool-post that I've got for my SL is made out of aluminum.  All of the QC tool-posts that I've seen listed for a DB/SL have been aluminum.

Don
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on April 18, 2022, 02:32:57 AM
Di Don, this is the part that I sawed OFF THE QC TOOL HOLDER AND IT IS STEEL, the second standard is taking shape and the vertical bearing part will need to made and attached ..also when I drill holes that are quite long I use this extended center drill to start the hole.

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on April 21, 2022, 01:48:59 AM
I have started the verticle bearing and made a quick perspex one to check out the dimensions  this is the backplate part that will be soldered onto the frame... The brass is now under construction ...

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: crueby on April 21, 2022, 02:37:33 AM
I love the way you prototype it with perspex, great way to check out complex shapes.


 :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on April 22, 2022, 12:46:54 AM
The Brass backplate is made and soldered in place so the bearing proper is next

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on April 28, 2022, 02:44:46 AM
The vertical bearing is now made and I have to fit everything together with all the adjusting screws ...

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: RReid on April 28, 2022, 03:13:26 AM
I do so enjoy following your progress, Willy.
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: crueby on April 28, 2022, 03:19:28 AM
Spectacular, there is a lot going on in those assemblies. Great work!
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: Kim on April 28, 2022, 05:09:58 AM
I'm following along, Willy.  You do a ton of fine detail fabrication on your engines and it is just amazing to watch.  Great work, Willy!

Kim
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on April 29, 2022, 02:12:54 AM
hi everybody and thanks for the comments.. I do a lot of thinking about what I am doing and that is why everything takes so long !!
After 70 odd years of accumulating tools, machinery and massive quantities of materials ,plus all the stuff from Jarrold's skip I don't have to compromise with my builds, and can take my time. There is also lots of other really good work happening on these threads and am impressed with lots of the builds that I would find impossible to make !!!.... so thanks and its good Covid is reducing so I can get out to visit other engines and also the exhibitions..

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on May 04, 2022, 01:19:21 AM
so ..doing some more fitting to get everything lined up and it is now running fairly smoothly ..I have taken some pictures withe gears rotating and that is why they look blurry...

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: crueby on May 04, 2022, 01:44:26 AM
Hi Willy,


Are you going to keep the perspex floor to show what's underneath? Maybe draw some floorboard edges on?
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on May 05, 2022, 12:39:32 AM
Hi Chris, not sure what I will do yet but as it is a presentational project rather than an exhibition piece we shall see ...Thanks for asking ..
Willt

Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on May 09, 2022, 11:32:59 PM
Hi Chris , Was looking at the photos of the numerous valve in the large engine you have photographed and noticed that they looked like what there should be on the engine I am making. This is pumping air and at each end you can see where the 6 individual valves were screwed in. They are now missing and were possibly taken away sometime ago. There is a later monochrome photo with what they looked like , so thanks for the pics

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: crueby on May 09, 2022, 11:44:59 PM
Hi Willy, those large holes with the fine threads are just like the ones on the water check valves. Probably a very similar valve, but likely with the plate opening inward to hold in the pressure. There must be another set on the outlet pipe?
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on May 13, 2022, 01:28:06 AM
Hi Chris ,thanks for that and yes these were made in 1898 so I dont know if they used rubber then or if they used rhinoceros hide , ? they did use this for the air pump valves on older beam engines. So ,I have made a drawing of the compressor from what I can see but a bit confused as to why it is square and rectangular  ?? I would have thought that as it used a cylindrical piston that they would not need the whole rectangular pump with all the extra cast iron ?? also the two side covers are bolted on but what is behind them is a mystery ?? I would like to get in and remove them but that is not possible at the moment !! I have been busy at the allotment recently and the summer has now arrived with lots more hours of daylight so spending less time at home in the workshop !!

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: crueby on May 13, 2022, 01:43:10 AM
Huh. They went to the trouble to make the compressor with square sides and removeable plates on both sides - there must be something else in there, some sort of other valves or passages.  Wonder if you can see anything through the holes where the valves screw in on the end? Borrow a borescope maybe?   :headscratch: :headscratch:
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on May 13, 2022, 02:37:24 AM
Hi Chris , thanks and this is what I can see through the holes  but can't quite work out what is happening ?? There is also the big spring on the piston rod gland ??

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: Don1966 on May 13, 2022, 04:04:24 AM
 :Love:


 :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: Charles Lamont on May 13, 2022, 02:09:50 PM
I suspect what we can see through the holes is just the piston. Do the cylinders perhaps have water jackets for cooling?
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on May 13, 2022, 04:02:30 PM
Hi All, thanks for the input and yes I have studied the photos and seen that the position of the crankshaft at its furthest away point from the compressor would indicate that the piston is right up against the end cap ...however I was confused by the curved portion of the inside hole that would indicate only half of the hole is admitting the air flow ?? and is part of the casting ?? also there is quite a complex shape around these holes ??,  A stethoscope would be helpful perhaps  and I  dont think there is any cooling water needed in this application ,

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: ddmckee54 on May 13, 2022, 06:04:17 PM
Willy:

I believe that the 6 holes we are looking at in IMG_7345(1), are the holes where the inlet check valves would be installed.  I'm pretty sure that the openings in the top half of both ends of the compressor are for the inlet check valves, as they do share a common manifold.  The pressure manifold is on the bottom maybe?  In IMG_0102 you see what I believe is a condensate drain.  I think that if this cap were removed, you would find 6 exhaust check valves, in a similar pattern as the inlet valves.  There is probably a divider cast into the cap to separate the suction and pressure sides of this end of the compressor.  It looks like this compressor is double ended, so whichever direction you're moving the piston, you are compressing air.

I don't think they would have used rubber or leather for the moving sealing surfaces of the check valves, too much hammering, maybe lapped cast iron and or bronze?

As for half of the inlet area being blocked off, the bronze/copper/whatever ring is probably the bottom sealing ring for the inlet valve cage.  My guess is that the air might have flowed through a hole in the center of the valve cage into the cylinder.  You'd screw the threads in until the cage bottomed out , sealing the cage to the cap.  With this being the suction side, it wouldn't have mattered if the threads leaked a little - it'd just be leaking into the suction side on the intake stroke.

Don
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on May 13, 2022, 10:26:33 PM
Hi Don yes thanks that sounds reasonable  as there must be a double sided arrangement of the valves to allow the air to pass into the air receivers . through the top pipe with the hand wheel valves . There is also outside of the Bldg this air intake pipe that must be the air intake possibly to  the bottom of the rectangular castings ?? There are  no visible pipe couplings though ? Also there are these circular with hexagonal outsides that looks though the are screwed into the 6 large
holes ?

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: ddmckee54 on May 16, 2022, 07:19:31 PM
Willy:

I would guess that the hex/circular shaped objects you can see in the photo are the visible part of the check valve cages.

I was originally thinking that the 6 openings we could see were on the suction side of the compressor.  If the top valves are on the suction side of the compressor, then the check valve cages would only be exposed to pressurized air from the cylinder during the compression stroke.  I believe that the copper colored rings visible in some of the photos are sealing rings to prevent air-leaks.  You would still get some air leaks around the threads of the valve cages, but only when the compressor was in the intake stroke.   The valve cage will always be at atmospheric pressure or maybe slightly below during the intake stroke, and then the air that would leak around the threads would be leaking into the compressor - not out of it.

If the top manifold is connected to air receiver then I've got it backwards and the top is the pressure side.  If that's the case then they would have had to somehow seal both the inside of the valve cage where it connects to the cylinder side of the cap, and the outside of the cage where it's exposed to the atmospheric pressure.  If they didn't seal both ends of the valve cage, and the middle was pressurized, then they they would have had a constant air-leak of pressurized air.

Don
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on May 17, 2022, 02:13:06 AM
Hi Don. thanks and there must be another valve somewhere in the system nearer to the output pipe to make everything actually work properly !! as it is double acting there should be something similar to how a slide valve works  ?? but there is no superate
linkage anywhere !! so this crossover valve must be automatic .. I would be good to get a drawing somewhere , thanks again for the input

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: MJM460 on May 17, 2022, 01:25:39 PM
Hi Willy, a compressor needs a valve which allows air into the cylinder, but not out, and a separate valve which allows air out but not in.  On large cylinders there tends to be multiple smaller valves rather than single larger valves to achieve the required flow.

On double acting compressors both types of valve are required on each end.

The valves open and close in response to the pressure difference caused by the piston movement, no operating mechanism is required.  Same as used in a water pump which is similar in many ways but one.

MJM460

Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: ddmckee54 on May 17, 2022, 07:52:49 PM
Willy:

Like MJM460 said you need both intake and exhaust check valves at each end of the compressor, but they don't need to be cam operated valves. 

The intake check valves, which I believe are the 6 openings that you see on both ends of the compressor, would be set up to allow air to flow into the cylinder on that side of the piston during the intake stroke for that side.  Keep in mind that the compressor is double-ended, so the intake stroke on one side of the piston is the compression stroke on the other side of the piston, and vice-versa.  Once the piston reverses its' direction and goes into the compression stroke for that side, the air pressure in the cylinder would start to build which would force the intake check valves closed.

Once the pressure in the cylinder is high enough, the exhaust check valves would be forced open and the compressed air would be pumped into the air receiver.  The exhaust check valves would probably be similar in design to the intake check valves except they would be set up to only let the air flow out of the cylinder.

I initially thought that the exhaust check valves would have been located on the cylinder side of the cap, directly under the intake check valves.  However that would have meant that to service the exhaust check valves you would have had to tear most of the compressor apart.  An engineer that does something like that does NOT want to meet up with a disgruntled service tech in a dark alley some night.  Now I wondering if maybe the exhaust check valves aren't in the side chests of the compressor.

You don't happen to have any pictures of the compressors with either the side chests open, or the end caps taken off do you?

Don
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on May 18, 2022, 12:30:28 AM
Hi MJM and Don. This seems to be a reasonable synopsis of the pump actions  and I am not able to take anything apart ..Yet... I was assuming that the outside curved parts on the end caps casting took the air up tp the top flanged part on the top of the condenser body to the large hand wheel Valve . I would have thought that the output check valves would have to be quite close to this valve to prevent the compressed air travelling towards the other end of the piston cavity !! The curved parts in the inlet holes may indicate that the piston is quite small ??..So thanks for the info and there must be lots of these pumps in use and in muse
 I have now collected some bar stock to construct the pump body but it will not be a functioning part unfortunately.

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: Charles Lamont on May 18, 2022, 09:44:52 AM
The outlet valves want to be close to the cylinder at each end to minimise the dead volume. This is fundamental to the design of an efficient of a compressor. On the induction stroke, the compressed air in the dead volume has to expand to below atmospheric pressure before the inlet valves can open. The smaller the dead volume in relation to the swept volume, the earlier in the stroke that happens, and the greater the volumetric efficiency. The outlet valves at the other end will stop compressed air in the manifold going back into the other end of the cylinder, so the only place the air is going is out through the big valve.

Some of the photos seem to show a quite complicated arrangement of baffles and passages around the apertures. Is it possible that the six valves include both the intakes and outlets, positioned accessibly for maintenance (removal for periodic re-lapping)? 
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: ddmckee54 on May 18, 2022, 09:19:34 PM
I don't want to hi-jack Willy's thread, but this compressor has tickled my fancy for some reason.  I've done a little looking on-line for Hughes & Lancaster air compressors and haven't found much.  I have however found a number of advertisements in old engineering magazines for Hughes & Lancaster pneumatic sewage lift systems.  (Seems like these guys specialized in that?)  Can anybody point me in the right direction?

Don
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on May 18, 2022, 10:20:46 PM
Hi Don , Don't worry about Hijacking this thread as I am really confused about what is happening ing inside this  "Box of tricks" and anything/every thing is welcome to understand what is going on here ...I like the 'dead volume'  analogy from Charles and I was thinking the same thing. ...This box has a huge volume to contain a relatively small "Dead Space'.  I too have reached the internet and have not found much myself  ?!!so please continue with more info ... So started on the parts tha will be soldered and screwed together....
Thanks

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: MJM460 on May 19, 2022, 11:45:23 AM
Hi Willy,

 It might help clarify the arrangement if you remember that the large block actually has four quite distinct internal spaces. 

Most obviously, the two compression spaces, one at each side of the piston.  These are the ones which need to have minimum dead volume when the piston is at the respective end, but have to be large enough to accept the whole intake volume at sub atmospheric pressure when the piston is at the other end.  They have to accomodate two valves, or sets of valves, to isolate them from the outside world without excess dead volume.

Then there is a chamber to bring the incoming air to the suction valves.  This has to be quite large to allow installation and servicing of the valves.  It generally has an opening with a cover over each valve again to assist in valve installation and servicing.  That inlet pipe from outside the building comes to this chamber.  The volume is not important as long as you can access the valves.

Finally there is the discharge chamber.  Obviously quite separate from the inlet chamber.  This chamber collects the air from the discharge valves and has the connection to the discharge pipe.  Again the volume is not important so long as you can service the valves, and it also has a cover over each valve to allow the necessary access from the outside.

Larger cylinders tend to have multiple smaller valves rather than a single large valve, and these valves require a lot of area for installation, so the inlet outlet collector chambers have to be large and this is reflected in the overall size of the block.

The basic arrangement of large reciprocating compressors has been refined a little from your example, but not significantly changed to this day.

I hope this clarifies the arrangement a little.

MJM460

Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: ddmckee54 on May 19, 2022, 06:18:44 PM
Willy:

I've hit a dead end.

I tried searching for "Hughes & Lancaster" + 1898 and got several hits.  The most promising was a lead to the March 21st, 1890 issue of "The Engineer" which had an article on a compressed air tram with illustrations.  My guess is that Hughes & Lancaster did the compressed air system.  That issue has been digitized and is available on PDF - to registered users.  I registered and tried to download the article, but they charge for the downloads.  I've got NO problem with that, and tried to sign up for the 3 download option.  Turns out my credit card will not allow such over-seas shenanigan's. 

I was hoping that in the article we might get a glimpse of the Hughes & Lancaster air compressors and maybe a different illustration.  Maybe somebody on your side of the pond can help out? 

But that article also might just be another dead-end.  I have NO clue why it is that I ALWAYS pick the odd-ball stuff to get interested in.

Don
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on May 20, 2022, 03:12:22 AM
Hi MJM, thanks for this and it does clarify things greatly  yes the block is very large and is bolted firmly to the bed plate with no spaces anywhere underneath that are visible so an indication that the air intakes from the outside pipe, incidentally it is facing west towards the UK's prevailing wind ?!  As the pump is double acting I would have thought that the outlet valves would be very close to the vertical outlet pipe. these pipes are very large for some reason and all four pumps are connected to it.

Hi Don, I have used Graces Guide  quite a lot in the past when it was free but yes now you have to pay for it However it has e wealth of info in it with many worthy publications .  I may be able to find a copy of The Engineer  here in the UK ! Thankyou for your help though and we will see what transpires .

I have continued with the pump block lots of drilling and tapping to do

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: MJM460 on May 20, 2022, 12:56:46 PM
Hi Willy, the discharge valves are of necessity near the heads of the engine so there is no extra dead volume between the cylinder head and the valves.  So the discharge chamber has to be about as long as the cylinder to collect from both ends.  The outlet pipe is usually connected to this chamber somewhere around the middle.  The distance after the valves to the discharge manifold is not very important.

A point about the discharge valves that might not be so obvious is the the discharge valves need to be at the bottom of the cylinder so that any liquid that enters the cylinder is discharged.  Quite a small volume of liquid can cause really serious damage to a reciprocating compressor if it is trapped in the cylinder.

Gravity has always been very effective at ensuring liquid water gathers at the bottom of the cylinder!

The inlet valves are then located in the only place remaining, at the top of the cylinder.

With the cylinder bolted down to the base, the discharge line might be at the side.  This complicates the shape of that discharge collector cavity.

The main issue with the inlet facing the prevailing wind is how much rain is collected by the pipe.  However usually rain can also come from other directions, so the inlet pipe needs to be arranged so that any water is always separated and drained before it reaches the compressor.

MJM460

Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: ddmckee54 on May 20, 2022, 05:53:48 PM
MJM460

Keeping the discharge valve close to the cylinder is why I thought they were on the bottom half of the cylinder caps.  They would probably be installed from the inner side of the cap and discharge into the cavity in the bottom half of the cap.  That would eliminate any dead volume between the cylinder and the valve.  But servicing them in that location would be a royal pain.  That also assumes that there is a connection on the bottom side of the compressor to the air receiver/s.

IF that is where they are, you would have to remove the cap to service the discharge valves.  It looks like there is enough room that a clever serviceman could slide the cap away from the cylinder far enough to service the valves - still wouldn't have been any fun.  Getting that cap sealed up so it didn't leak any air wouldn't be any fun either.  I wonder if these are fairly low pressure air compressors?  To do their job of ejecting sewage, you'd need a lot of volume, but not much pressure.  They probably REALLY wanted to avoid making a poop cannon.

Then I started wondering just exactly what was under those side chest covers?  That would be a great place to put the discharge valves, they'd be relatively easy to service in that location.  BUT then you'd have all that volume between the valves and the cylinder cap that you'd have to compress, on EVERY stroke - that would cut your compressor efficiency WAY down.

Nope, I think the side covers are just there to cover the cooling jacket openings, it'd be easier to cast that way.  In one of the previous images, I believe it was IMG_0102 that shows a small-ish pipe connected to the bottom side chest on one side of the compressor.  In that same image you can see a similar sized pipe that is connected to the top of the side chest of the compressor in the background.  I'd be willing to bet dollars to donuts that those small-ish pipes are the cooling water inlets and outlets.

Don
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on May 21, 2022, 02:30:19 AM
Hi MJM, Thanks for this and more info is making things a lot clearer, It will be good to make a sectioned drawing to find out what is actually happening ...perhaps finding some patent descriptions could be useful.  There must be some very clever porting in the castings as well !!
Hi Don , Yes I have found some useful pics that shows some pipes top and bottom that could be there to supply the cooling water There is a pressure valve on the casting that goes up to  175 psi. 5 bar  but I don't know if this is original ? There are two sets of these turbines and compressors so they could have enough downtime to make repairs and adjustments. These compressors were working g 24/7. so perhaps the efficiency was not that critical as the air was used intermittently to activate the Shone ejectors...letting the syphon system operate to move the sewerage.   
I have made the new parts ,silver soldering the separate items together.

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on May 21, 2022, 02:51:23 AM
A few pics of the shone ejector and the drain cock and Pressure gauge ....

"W"
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: crueby on May 21, 2022, 02:57:54 AM
Looked up the Shone ejector, found this video showing a cutaway view of it in action:
8ROFfOxypno
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: MJM460 on May 21, 2022, 12:59:22 PM
Don, I think we are both heading the same direction.  I totally agree about the water chambers as well, confirmed the the extra pictures Willy has posted.  Makes for a very complex casting.

Chris, thanks for that video, it ads to the sketch Willy provided way back, and explains how the compressors work in the system.

MJM460





Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: Charles Lamont on May 21, 2022, 09:34:20 PM
I don't think we have got to the bottom of the inlet and discharge valves yet.

I think we are agreed that the curved shapes on the tops of the cylinder covers are passages communicating with the box on the top of the cylinder to the big valve, and that valve is the on the pressure side. I think we have also agreed that a sensible design would require all the valves, inlet and outlet, to be accessible for maintenance.

I don't accept that the discharge valves have to be at the bottom for clearing trapped water. It is a reasonable argument, but I don't think it is conclusive.

Now, in so far as I can see from peering into those six holes in the numerous photos, at least the top two chambers have pretty much got to lead to that curved delivery passage. Furthermore, the cylinder cover has a similar rectangular projection below, and I think it very likely that that is the air inlet to to the cylinder cover.

But this is where I get stuck. I had initially supposed that some of the six apertures would have housed the inlet valves and some outlet, but looking as closely as the photos allow, I cannot see walls that would be needed to separate inlets and outlets. On the contrary, from what can be seen, it looks to me as though all six apertures are probably connected. So if they are all for delivery valves, where are the inlets?
     
Incidentally, I would be quite happy with four inlets and two outlets, on the same principle as a three valve IC engine.

Alternatively, throwing in another spanner to flavour the pot, where are the over-pressure relief valves? Are those six holes perhaps just for safety valves, with the ins and outs somewhere else entirely? 
 
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on May 22, 2022, 02:17:33 AM
Hi Chris, thanks for the video and it shows quite clearly how the system works ..it also led to other videos on the same theme .
Hi MJM , thanks or the reply and I would love to get back in the BLDG with a video probe and mirrors and also putting my fingers into the apertures to see how they connect ?!!
Thanks Charles , and more food for thought ...I will make some more sectional drawings to try and work out what is possible with the porting arrangements ??!!!  I may be able to locate the "ENGINEER" volume as the S.M.E.E. in London have a complete set ?? If the top curved portion goes to the top horizontal channel where the outlet hand valve is the air must also continue to the other ends curved portion to temporarily keep the outlet valves closed ...?!   so , the mystery continues  Thanks for all the comments and its good for our brain cells to stay young and active ??!!

Cheers
willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: MJM460 on May 22, 2022, 01:03:07 PM
Hi Charles, I am basing my comments on modern compressor design, and this will have developed a little from the historical machines Willy is modelling.  Also there minor differences in detail between manufacturers.

The attached picture (the third one) is a cut away drawing from Ariel, a compressor manufacturer in Columbus, Ohio,  and may help clarify how the valves are set up.  Certainly, Willys compressor has the valves in the heads, which are more awkward for servicing, and this makes for more options in carrying the gas to the inlet and discharge pipe nozzles, but the principle is the same.  Other manufacturers in USA and in Europe use very similar details.

The valves are actually seated at the inner compartment where the compression happens.  You can see how the arrangement causes minimal dead volume.  The valves are retained by sleeves, which in turn are held in place by the covers you can see on the outside.  The picture shows flanged covers, but these are relatively large compressors.  (The one shown is rated at about 5200 hp.)  I think the New Mills compressors have screwed in covers, by the look of some of the pictures.

On larger machines those retainer cages are quite heavy, and require a special jig to support the weight as they are withdrawn.

I can assure you that the inlet valves are at the bottom for the reason I gave, but of course, this may due to learning the lesson with historical machines built the other way.  We know now how to do it.

Unfortunately this machine does not have cylinder cooling, and that adds a further dimension to the cylinder casting complexity when it is included.  The New Mills machines do appear to have water cooled cylinders, which are not unusual.

I have lost touch with where the inlet and discharge pipes are located, perhaps Willy can set me straight there.

I hope this picture, and the diagram, even though a modern machine, help with understanding of of the parts of the older machines.

MJM460


Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on May 23, 2022, 02:27:20 AM
Hi MJM, Thanks for this info and I am posting the photos again that have been photoshopped to give a clearer image of the internals. Do you have the text with the cut away drawing that indicates what the numbers refer to ?? I will do some drawings soon that are sectioned with what I can see from the pictures  ! 2 of the pictures show the head with the piston up against it and the other one is at the other end with no sight of the piston , The final pic shows the piston with some damage to it ??

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: MJM460 on May 23, 2022, 01:08:40 PM
Hi Willy, unfortunately I have not been able to find original prints of these diagrams, though I should have brochures packed away somewhere.  I have even been to the factory to witness a test run. Always a very informative experience.  I guess not being able to find them proves my wife’s point that I should throw them out!  So those diagrams are just pictures available on the web.  Obviously not supposed to find them useful, as they do not come up readable, nor do they link to readable pages.  Looks like a great search result until you actually need to read the drawings.  I did manage to read the words at the bottom, and they indicate that the diagram is supposed to be a suction valve on one side of the centreline, and a discharge valve on the other side of the centreline.  It is clear that superficially, they are quite similar.

I labelled the key parts with highlighter pens on one diagram, and on the cutaway.  They are legible on my copy and check with my labels.

Modern valves have two layers as shown, with plates and damper elements inside that open and close as required.  The discharge and suction valves look similar in this view, it is the arrangement of the internals that determine which is which.  Now days there are special provisions to ensure you can’t get them the wrong way around.  Again the result of learning what doesn’t work the hard way.

The retainer cage actually holds the valve in place.  The openings in the side of the cage allow the gas to flow in or out from the valve.  I don’t know whether your machine has those or not, it is possible that the valves are simply screwed in place from the outside with a special tool, then the cap screwed in to seal the outer shell.  Definitely looks like a threaded hole on the outer surface.  The outer covers on the picture I showed are flanged which is now normal on larger machines.

I hope these pictures and explanations help you understand what you are looking at on your machine, even though they are not necessarily exactly the same.  The principle is definitely the same.

MJM460





Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on May 24, 2022, 01:21:45 AM
Hi  MJM ,  Thanks for this and I will try and arrange another visit...I have found some more info on the web about the history of the site and also a fairly recent new use using an Archemedies screw to generate electricity ...also a pic of another pump bu Hughes and Lancaster. so thanks for the latest info ..
Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on May 26, 2022, 02:55:02 AM
So,... thanks for all the input about this air pumping machinery and now to making it ..the side covers top part and an end cover have been started on and lots more to scheme out ...
Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on May 28, 2022, 02:00:14 AM
A bit more work on the engine ...the end caps are made and now the curved bolting flanges need to be made,,,also the large holes need to be accurately drilled and tapped ...

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: crueby on May 28, 2022, 04:41:05 AM
Coming together nicely!   :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on May 28, 2022, 12:25:32 PM
Hi Yes but very slowly   Thinking about the transfer air valves ????? do they work sideways  ??????

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: MJM460 on May 28, 2022, 12:48:27 PM
Hi Willy, it basically depends on the construction detail.  The important point is that the construction detail should not allow the valve plate to fall out of position at that neutral point where the air flow is close to zero, so no longer holding the valve fully open or closed.  They will likely need a light spring to make sure they close without too much reverse flow.  Have you got a sketch of the valve construction, at least the construction detail you are planning to use?

Plate valves in a modern machine have a large number of small springs to ensure that each segment of the plate is pressed back against the seat as soon as the intended flow reduces to the point where the flow no longer holds it open.  Only light springs are used so the cylinder pressure does not have to be too much above the discharge line pressure to open them.

MJM460



Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on May 29, 2022, 01:49:45 AM
Hi MJM , Thanks for the reply  and the reason I asked is that I think that as the round openings are half way closed off in the castings it looks like the closed off portion has openings that may go up to the top of the main casting via the curved outside part of the piston cover to go to the shared main hand valve . the two photos show both ends of the cylinder covers one with thepistonallmost fully closed and the other end open to the cylinder. I have made a drawing to show how the 6 openings may connect with the cast in porting passages,,?? the valves in these 6 openings would have to be sideways on to operate ,  and that is where my comment came from. Also in your picture of the engine there is a spring on the piston rod  ? there is also a spring on this engine ??. So , there must also be a spring valve on the air input side and this may been on the lower part of the cylinder cap ??
so the construction continues ...

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: MJM460 on May 29, 2022, 01:06:56 PM
Hi Willy,

I think you have the air flow correct for the discharge valves in your sketch.  Just turn the sketch upside down, for the inlet flow, but you have just not shown the actual valves.

I think you will find that the valves sit on that machined seat, not on the half “closure” which is a bit further in and allows flow to the entire valve face, with minimal extra dead volume.

I suspect the valves extend outside the cylinder surface because there is not enough room inside the cylinder diameter for adequate size valves.

The assembled valves are a bit like a disk with internal air passages.  Made in two layers, with a moving plate in between that is pushed off the seat by air flow, then reseated by a spring or springs when the flow would otherwise reverse.  They have been removed at some stage, perhaps to stop them rusting up while the machine was not in use.  Specific shapes have evolved since you machine was built, but the basic principle is no different to a leather flap over a hole in fireside bellows.  Just the leather flap would not withstand continuous 24/7 operation for three years as modern process compressor valves are expected to achieve (and do).

Based on my knowledge of modern machines, I suggest the valves are held down on that circular seat by a hollow cage which allows the airflow out into the collector chamber per your sketch.  The cage in turn is pressed down by a screwed cap which fits the threads you can see in your pictures.  A special tool to hold the lot together while the valve is inserted, as I mentioned before.

I wonder if your museum has a box of small parts for those compressors hidden away somewhere.  Hopefully with a full set of valves and some spares, or at least enough to allow some replacements to be machined up.  Hmmm, perhaps not such a small box!

The drawing I posted earlier does not have a spring on the shaft, those features are separate grooves in the seal casing, used for leakage collection and buffer gas injection, not a spiral, though I can understand the confusion at a quick glance.  Sometimes called chambers, though the form is more like a large groove which encircles the shaft.  The sealing element is divided into sections, separated by a lantern ring at each of those grooves to allow gas collection or injection.  External piping is fitted to pipe the gas in or out.  I can explain more of that if anyone is interested, but the arrangement is not required for an air compressor where some leakage is not so much of a problem.  But the drawing is for a process compressor for flammable or toxic gases, where leakage to the atmosphere is not acceptable, hence the more sophisticated seal.  The drawing also mentions water cooling but I don’t think the detail of that is on the drawing.

I really don’t a know what the spring around your piston rod gland is for, that one is still puzzling me.

MJM460


Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on May 31, 2022, 02:15:36 AM
Hi MJM , Yes I see what you mean about the valves and I think the inlet valves are under the side plates ...there are only 12 nuts to undo so would be quite quick for any repairs. The building is not actually a museum as such and it remains as left when it last worked in the 50's...there was some preliminary work with a viewing platform back in the 80's but nothing more has happened since. I have looked and have not seen those valves anywhere. Yes the spring is a mystery could it be an automatic water relief valve ??
I have done some more work on the cylinder caps drilling the holes and tapping them  etc

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: ddmckee54 on May 31, 2022, 05:21:02 PM
Willy:

My first thought when I saw the spring was that it was to keep pressure on the packing gland for the shaft seal?  But it would be pushing the wrong direction for that.

There are 6 valves in the top half of the cylinder cap, we can look through the openings where they would be installed.  We are assuming that there will probably be more valves on the bottom half that handle the flow in the opposite direction.  When you look in through the opening where the valve cage would be installed you see a circular line running through the opening.  You are assuming that the raised portion is the cylinder and the depressed portion is the piston.

Here's a "what-if" for you.  What if what we are seeing IS the piston? And what if the piston extends beyond the opening, AND it has a depression carved into it?  That depression could serve 2 purposes.  First, it would give you a place for the locking nut that will hold the piston onto the shaft.  And that depression just MIGHT be clearance for the valves that we are pretty sure are installed in the bottom half of the cylinder cap - the valves that handle the flow in the opposite direction.  I think we've been assuming that the valves on the bottom would be a mirror image of the valves on the top, but what if they aren't?  If the piston extends beyond the opening, that would give you full flow across the entire face of the upper valves.

Do you have any clue why the entire cylinder cap appears to be covered in grease?  That's always bothered me why they did that.

Don


Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on June 02, 2022, 01:03:45 AM
Hi Don thanks for this insight and what we need to do is to get in there with some spanners !!!  The rear of the pumps are not actually connected to anything so that would be a good place to start. I don't know why the grease is there ..perhaps it is to protect the surfaces from rust because>>>>>>>>??

It is Strumpshaw steam engine Rally for the next 4 days so I will be there having fun  :whoohoo: :cartwheel: :)

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: crueby on June 02, 2022, 01:19:35 AM
Have fun at the rally - and take pictures!!!
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on June 06, 2022, 12:46:23 AM
Hi Chris ,  Yes a great show and lovely weather for a change ... the first outing for 2 years ... Also .at one of the trade stalls I found this big brass one way sprung valve  that could be the type of valve missing from the New Mills pump !!! albeit with  inside threads !!

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on June 16, 2022, 02:55:55 AM
So.. back in the workshop and continuing with the pump parts  I have made the  front curved part ... turned to thickness and cut out of the bar stock ...the rear part needs to be made next in much the same way ...
Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on June 17, 2022, 03:36:42 AM
I have now made the other parts and they need tidying up and soldering together.............

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on June 19, 2022, 02:32:47 AM
The end parts are now done and bolted in place  so the other end to do next so coming along nicely

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: Admiral_dk on June 19, 2022, 11:38:38 AM
Looks good Willy  :ThumbsUp:

Have you figured a way to make the Valves yet ?
Do they have to look like the original (will they be visible) ?

The one you bought at the Steam Rally would have fitted the bill if you scale didn't require it to be so small ....   :cheers:

Per
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on June 20, 2022, 02:38:13 AM
Hi Per thanks for the comment and I am thinking that I will not be able to use this as a working model as I don't know how the internals are configured to achieve a pumping action .. It was decided to have this model as a depiction of the turbine driving the pump mechanism to show the mechanical action ?!!also the valves would all have to be 1/8th " outside diameter !!
Thanks for your interest with this model

Willy

Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on June 22, 2022, 02:23:47 AM
I have now been finishing off the side covers and they are cast items with the recess. I made some thin plywood shapes on the laser cutter and superglued them to thin shim brass. the centre part and outside dimension was removed and then glued onto the side covers. the holes were then drilled through into the thin plywood , then the plywood removed. The resulting profile now looks much better and the next job is to tackle the lettering ........

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on June 24, 2022, 03:49:53 AM
Both ends have now been completed and the small head 10BA nuts and bolts need to be made...I need to attach the lettering witch is embossed as it is a casting .. so still lots of tidying up to do...

Willy
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: crueby on June 24, 2022, 04:02:00 AM
Wow, lots coming together, really looking great!  How are you going to make the letters?


 :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on June 24, 2022, 04:20:28 AM
Hi "C",I am going to look at the options available as they are painted red on green...I may get it engraved and fill in with the red >>>>>
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: propforward on June 24, 2022, 01:32:22 PM
It's a wonderful model - and engraving and filling with red will look super if you choose to go that route.
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: Don1966 on June 24, 2022, 11:00:28 PM
Willy …… :Love:


 :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on June 25, 2022, 10:35:19 PM
Hi Stuart  & Don,
 thanks and option 13 ...take a photo of it and glue it on ??!!!

Willy ;D
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: crueby on June 25, 2022, 11:20:42 PM
Electro etching it would give the raised letters. The lettered panel is pretty small though, isn't it?
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: Roger B on June 30, 2022, 08:17:38 PM
I'm still following and enjoying  :praise2:  :praise2:  :wine1: So many fine details  :)

We will be in Norwich in August for Jenni's wedding celebration, hopefully we can meet up.
Title: Re: New Mills Pumping Station
Post by: steam guy willy on July 01, 2022, 12:10:53 AM
hi Roger ...yes of course..

willy