Model Engine Maker

Engines => Your Own Design => Topic started by: crueby on March 12, 2021, 05:42:43 PM

Title: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 12, 2021, 05:42:43 PM
Hi again, time for me to start my next big build, which will be a 1:32 model of the triple compound water pumping engine built by Holly Manufacturing for the Ward Pumping Station in Bufallo NY. The building was set up to hold a row of eight of these monster pumping engines, but they only put in five of them. All five of the engines and the building are still there, and they (in non-covid years) hold a public tour once a year. The boiler building out back, that held rows of huge boilers, collapsed in a blizzard years ago (when the steam pumps were no longer used).

Here is a picture taken from one end of the row - you can just see the pipework for the other four engines behind it.

(https://i.postimg.cc/jdWDDZKg/DSC-7633.jpg)
All very standard looking big engine, till you look at the sides and see how small the people are! Those are real streetlights on the walkway to light up the building at night, during the day the glass roof lets in a lot of light. At the bottom are the pumps, one under each cylinder - inlet is on the left bottom, outlet pipes come out the side at the top of the chambers. There are 6 valve chambers in all, three either side. There is a giant plunger ram that comes down from the crosshead up above. There are two huge flywheels between the cylinders. On the opposite side, there is a geared shaft driving the eccentrics to corliss valves on the HP and IP cylinders, and poppet valves on the LP cylinder. Close view of the valves on the HP cylinder:
(https://i.postimg.cc/G3gB3Z0T/DSC-7543.jpg)


This link goes to their web page with some more details on the engines:  https://www.buffalohistorygazette.net/2010/09/holly-steam-engines-at-col-francis-g.html
Several decades ago the steam pumps were retired, but they are still complete. In one of the bays at the end of the building left open for more engines if needed, they installed these electric pumps - tiny by comparison, that do the same work of supplying water to the city. They dont even come up to the walkway around the room!

(https://i.postimg.cc/sxL1nZP4/DSC-7535.jpg)

Several years ago I took the tour, lots of photos, and afterwards contacted the man that organized the tours, asking if anyone had ever measured the machines and created plans, and saying that I wanted to build a working model of an engine from there - kind of side hoping no one had so I could get permission to get in there and climb all over them with a tape measure!

It turns out that he had, several years before, found the actual original builders blueprints sitting on a shelf in a corner of the building! Hundreds of pages of the original plans for the engine and buildings - quite an amazing find! Even more amazing was that he very kindly sent me a copy of the PDF file he had made with scans of every page. What a gift!

Over the last couple of years, as a side project, I've been working on a 3D CAD model in Fusion 360, it is now nearly complete, just missing the final shafts to the valves and the cladding around the cylinders:
(https://i.postimg.cc/nhBMkrXq/Holly-Pumping-Engine-Complete-v2.jpg)
After a bunch of calculations, I settled on a size of 1:32 scale for the model, which is big enough to keep the fasteners up in the 1-72 and 2-56 range, and small enough to be moveable without a crane - the base plate will be 10" x 18". Still, its going to be a heavy beast. I'm hoping to be able to make at least one of the pump chambers with an open side to show the check valve stacks inside. The cylinders are in the 1", 2", and 3" range, and the flywheels are 7" diameter.
For this model, I am hoping to take the detail level up a notch or two, and get as much detail in as possible on all the fittings and platforms. There are four levels of floors and stairs, railings, ladders, etc so it will be more of a diorama piece. This will NOT be a short build!
Started to assemble the materials for the base and frames, also found some bronze flywheels at Martin Models that I can turn to fit. For the two larger cylinders, I found some automotive cast iron cylinder liners with 1/8" walls that I will use for the core of the cylinders, with stacks of plates around them - mainly since the large bores would be tough to do on my little Sherline lathe, and this will save a LOT of work boring out from solid. Here is the pile of materials so far:
(https://i.postimg.cc/5yKpnpkK/IMG-9068.jpg)
I will be using brass for the base plates and main frames, since I love working with the stuff. I can hear some of you now, clamoring over the cost of brass. I'll wait till you finish...

Okay?

 :naughty:

So, yes the larger bar is pricey in brass, but given the amount of shaping to be done in it, and how much I like working it, I dont care! The 4" x 1/2" stock is the expensive part, but even that was bought on 25% off sale, and the 1/2" square bar for the frame rails was actually pretty cheap, only about $50. Shopping around and buying drops from the suppliers can save a lot. The base plate for the 'floor' is 1/4" aluminum, and will be sanded/painted to look like concrete and screwed to a wood base with short legs to get fingers under for lifting.


The only cutting done so far has been to saw the lengths of cylinder liner down to size (they came as 8" long - so I have enough for a few more large bore engines. Or an elf canon. ) and to saw the 4"x1/2" stock to lengths - they are in the oven getting stress relieved since they will have sections removed from the bottom and top faces and I dont want them to warp. The first work will be to make the base, and some drill guides for the base plates.

Should be a fun build!
 :cheers: Chris

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dan Rowe on March 12, 2021, 06:28:23 PM
Wow I will be watching this  :cartwheel: :cartwheel: :cartwheel: It is just like a big ship engine and that is my favorite type of steam engine.  :whoohoo: :whoohoo:

Cheers Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 12, 2021, 06:41:19 PM
That's going to be an awesome model.

You say it won't be a short build. What? Like 3 months? 4 maybe?

Are your elves unionized?

(That's been the only upside of this pandemic. Haven't seen your pests around here for a while. Course...there's been nothing to see either.)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Craig DeShong on March 12, 2021, 06:44:09 PM
What an awesome undertaking, lots of opportunity to make a stunning model.  I’ll be following!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on March 12, 2021, 07:23:29 PM
Great to hear about the new build Chris! I've just ordered 550 pounds of popcorn kernels to get ready for the festivities to start!   :cheers:

 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 12, 2021, 07:34:49 PM
That's going to be an awesome model.

You say it won't be a short build. What? Like 3 months? 4 maybe?

Are your elves unionized?

(That's been the only upside of this pandemic. Haven't seen your pests around here for a while. Course...there's been nothing to see either.)


3 weeks? ...   Um, no! 


You just didn't notice the elves, they look like Fritos bags in thier hazmat suits!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on March 12, 2021, 07:38:12 PM
Just a thought - During the design stage, did you include any tubing conduit to carry low voltage power vertically through the engine to the undersides of the platforms? This would enable you to have a few LED's under each platform so the detail can be seen more easily, as well as making assembly / troubleshooting easier without exterior lights. No unsightly loose plastic coated wiring if run in conduit. Much easier to find the elves' abandoned pizza crusts and beer bottles too.......

Only mentioning it as a thought before the build starts in earnest, as I have seen some model engines of pumping station engines and ships' engines that were mighty dark below the platforms.

If you know any home heating techs or plumbers who service gas fired furnaces or water heaters or boilers,  ask them to save any burned out thermocouples they come across for you. These have a 12" to 36" piece of good quality copper thinwall tube from the hot end to the gas valve end. Excellent for lube lines. (And maybe pumping station conduit   :naughty:). Price is right too - these are usually scrapped, so you can often get them free from a trades person.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 12, 2021, 09:05:44 PM
CNR, the original has no lights on the platforms, just the lights on the building walkways, so I hadn't considered it. Good idea though, with tiny leds it would look cool. Really only need a single conductor wire, it could ground through the frame. Wire wrap wire inside hypo tubing is a possibility too. Hmmm...


Thanks!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: ddmckee54 on March 12, 2021, 09:31:20 PM
Chris:

Since it's the remainder of the cylinder liner, the ratio of its' diameter of bore to the length of the bore would probably be too small to qualify as an elf-cannon.  Maybe an elf-howitzer but I think there are other qualifications it would also have to meet for that.  Most likely it would be an elf-mortar.  (It's short and stubby dontchaknow)

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 12, 2021, 09:49:29 PM
Chris:

Since it's the remainder of the cylinder liner, the ratio of its' diameter of bore to the length of the bore would probably be too small to qualify as an elf-cannon.  Maybe an elf-howitzer but I think there are other qualifications it would also have to meet for that.  Most likely it would be an elf-mortar.  (It's short and stubby dontchaknow)

Don
I stand corrected. And the elves stand quivering!   :lolb:   Hmmm, I do have some black powder for the flintlocks.... Here, elfy elfy!   :LittleDevil:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: scc on March 12, 2021, 10:21:41 PM
 :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :DrinkPint:         Terry
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on March 12, 2021, 10:33:19 PM
Sounds like a great party, Chris.  I'll be following along too!  :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Flyboy Jim on March 12, 2021, 10:56:51 PM
Another great build to follow along on.  :whoohoo:

Jim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Art K on March 12, 2021, 11:35:18 PM
Run away Elfy  run away fast, no leave the Elfsteiner! Sounds like an ambitious project but then again most of yours do.
Art
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 13, 2021, 12:01:14 AM
Thanks guys, I am looking forward to this one. With all the small details it needs, it will be a bit more like my ship building projects. It has all sorts of brackets, hangers, stairs, railings. Just spent some time in the wood shop making the wood parts to hold the base plate. Glue is drying, will sand and start varnishing the wood this weekend. As for time, I like long projects, the building is the really fun part for me.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Don1966 on March 13, 2021, 01:57:10 AM
Dog this is right down your ally and a great masterpiece of machinery to add to your awesome collection. I am differently following alone.....


 :popcornsmall:


 :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 13, 2021, 09:13:49 PM
I've gotten a bit done on the wood parts for the base, pics on that later. I'd be farther along, but the shop elves apparently went out and did some shopping at Guinness:

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 13, 2021, 11:46:02 PM
Today got started cutting metal for the Holly pump - well, sorta, started by making the drill guide for the pump housing bases. There are three bases, one for each pump set. Each base has a center housing that has the plunger and its chamber. Either side of that are pairs of check valve housings for the inlet and outlet. Each housing has what I call a beehive - a domed chamber with check valve sets all over it. Lots and lots and lots of check valves! Each of the 6 chambers has 7 inlet and 7 outlet check valve cages. Each cage has 15 check valves. So, 6 * 7 * 2 * 15 give 1260 check valves!! Am I going to make 1260 check valves? Nope! But, all the housings at least need to be made, and the pump bases hold them.

Here is what the bases look like:
(https://i.postimg.cc/2yZTPGfH/Pump-Base-Top-View.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/k4Zf1ZL6/Pump-Base-Bottom-View.jpg)

With all those holes to drill, and flanges to outline, the mill is going to be busy. However, the bases are too long (over 8.1" long) to swing all the way around on the rotary table to do the circles at the ends. This would make the layout and alignment really nasty and prone to error. So, the solution? A drill guide. Lay out and drill all the holes in a thin piece of steel bar stock, that can be bolted down to a few easy-to-lay-out holes in a line at either end of the stock. Then, use that to position and drill each hole. This will go lots quicker and lots more consistantly than individually aligning each plate, spotting each hole, and drilling it.
I started by sizing a piece of steel stock to the width of the bases, and long enough to reach all the holes at either end of the base. Then, used the edge finder to position at the back right corner, and zeroed the handwheels on the mill so I can use that corner as a reference for all the rest of the holes in the pattern. Engaged CNC mode (Count Number Cranks, that is) and started very carefully moving over and spotting/drilling each hole:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Vk1r9vS2/IMG-9069.jpg)
That took care of the rectangular patterns - then switched to holding it on the rotary table with the four-jaw chuck, and adjusted the chuck till I got the hole in the center of the circular pattern (which is NOT in the center of the plate) centered up on the rotary table, then offset and drilled the circular pattern:
(https://i.postimg.cc/GmQBXRGt/IMG-9070.jpg)
The holes are a couple different sizes, depending on the size of bolts they will be tapped for. Here is the finished drill guide, sitting on top of the blanks that the bases will be made from. The blanks still need to be milled to final length and width.

(https://i.postimg.cc/vmZ4jKtz/IMG-9071.jpg)
Then did some playing around, to figure out how to hold the blanks for shaping them to length/width. I have a larger mill vise, but it turns out it came up about 1/8" short on the jaw opening to hold the 4" wide blanks. So, I'll clamp them to the mill table, squaring them to the table with one edge of the blank hanging off the back of the mill table to cut the first edge square.

(https://i.postimg.cc/QMYFrq6r/IMG-9073.jpg)
I'll get one end trimmed on each base, then flip them around and take the other end in square and to finished length. The sides need to be taken in a little to finished width - the mill has JUST enough travel to do that with the blanks lengthwise on the table, with one edge hanging off the back of the table. Looks like a bunch of crank turning and making swarf coming up....
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dave Otto on March 14, 2021, 12:10:43 AM
Well I'm late to the parade but I will be following along, cool project!

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Jo on March 14, 2021, 10:50:09 AM
Triple Corliss build 8)

I'll be following along Chris  :DrinkPint:

Jo
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 14, 2021, 01:15:41 PM
Triple Corliss build 8)

I'll be following along Chris  :DrinkPint:

Jo
Glad to have you along!
Just realized I should clarify one thing that I had said on the valves - all three cylinders have the Corliss linkages, with the HP and IP cylinders having the rotary valves on inlet and exhaust. The LP cylinder uses the rotary inlet valves, but poppet exhaust valves. There is also a condensor on the exhaust pipe, down at the outlet of the water pumps - they used the flowing water from the pumps to cool the exhaust and form a partial vacuum there to aid the LP cylinder. It looks like that condensor was not original to the engine, but was added at some point later on.

At this scale, the dashpots for the valves will most likely have to be dummies, getting the trip linkages done this small would require some swiss watchmaker help - the engine itself is enormous, but the valves are not! Dont think I mentioned - the cylinders are 32", 64" and 96" diameter on the original, with an 8.6 foot stroke.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 14, 2021, 03:01:41 PM
This morning saw the base plates trimmed to length, and started in on taking the first side to width (need to take off just over 1/4" total)
(https://i.postimg.cc/cLnFJYFq/IMG-9074.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on March 14, 2021, 04:22:49 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Roger B on March 14, 2021, 05:18:13 PM
This looks to be another fine project to follow  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp:  :wine1:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 14, 2021, 05:55:20 PM
As mentioned yesterday, the wood base for the aluminum base plate has been made and clear coated. The wood is a wide frame under the ali, and notched to let the plate sit down lower. They will be screwed together, screws under the three frame base plates.
(https://i.postimg.cc/C1tD3rkW/IMG-9076.jpg)
Got the first of the frame bases milled to width - this picture shows how the drill guide matches the width, and can be lined up with the end of the base.

(https://i.postimg.cc/xCqMFVJv/IMG-9077.jpg)
The angled corner on the drill guide is just where the end of the bar stock was cut at an angle, that corner is not important.
So, on to milling the other base plates to width....
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on March 14, 2021, 07:17:13 PM
Most of the time people make the base last, but you made it first.  And it looks great!  :ThumbsUp:
It's great to see the first swarf for this new mega model, Chris! :popcorn: :popcorn:

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 14, 2021, 07:43:49 PM
Most of the time people make the base last, but you made it first.  And it looks great!  :ThumbsUp:
It's great to see the first swarf for this new mega model, Chris! :popcorn: :popcorn:

Kim
By the time the rest of the model is done, it will be a LOT harder to lift to fit the base! 
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on March 14, 2021, 09:18:16 PM
Hullo Chris.......you make mention of the possibility that the condenser as shown may have been an afterthought or rework?

I find my self keeping the need to remember :facepalm: this is a steam pump and not a steam engine, so for me the critical direction of flow appears to be the accumulator  :facepalm2:

To the best of my understanding, the pressure water spools [on either side of the engine] meet in a T spool..and the water enters the base of the water hammer anti-pulsation vertical accumulator then closeby enters the cooling flange ports of the steam condenser from the LP cylinder

I do not see any evidence of the condensate discharge pipework [back to boiler feed]

Is this correct?....or am I on the wrong track?...I have never seen such a water pump....in my geographic location [Eastern seaboard of NSW], our feed water is from rainwater dams up on a plateau so the natural head of water provides up to 100 PSI in our domestic systems down much closer to sea level

Derek

PS...the colour coding  :Director: [by convention] of pipework doesn't always work here [steam = light grey..ISO 5101, water = blue ISO 5104/5].....so to see the steam, I have made it red , & the water yellow

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 14, 2021, 09:44:41 PM
Hi Derek,
You are close - I would call this a steam pumping engine.   :shrug:    On top, it is a 3 cylinder engine with normal crankshaft/flywheel setup. Crankshaft is at the orange arrow, you can see one of the flywheels to the left. Underneath the engine, connected by shaftw from the crossheads, is a water pump. When I think of the term steam pump, I think of the boiler feedwater type without a crankshaft. That may just be my own understanding of the terms, or the terms are too non-specific!
Anyway, the red arrows you drew angling down from the top are the steam exhaust from the LP cylinder. The condenser is the drum with the yellow star on it - it has the pumped water under pressure filling the drum, and inside the drum is a set of coils full of steam, and the condensed steam water goes down through pipes near the purple arrow underneath the star. I dont think the actual condensed water pipe is visible in that photo - as I recall it comes out the far side away from the camera. Since they are right next to the lake, there is not much need to recycle the water back into the boilers, I don't know if they just dumped the condensate or sent it back - the boilers were in another building behind the one with the engines, so it would not be far to send it if they wanted to. There were dozens of boilers in that building - sadly that building is no longer there, sometime after they switched to the electric pumps there was one of the occasional major blizzards, and the roof of the boiler building collapsed under the snow load. Being next to Lake Erie, the west winds off the lake generate huge amounts of snow in storms, sometimes more than 10 feet of it in a day. All depends on when in the winter - by late winter the surface of the lake there, which is shallow, freezes over and reduces the lake effect. In north winds, the same thing happens off Lake Ontario (I live near the south side of Ontario, and am 60 miles east of Lake Erie, so we get snowstorms from both depending on which way the wind swings around).


Underneath each piston is a plunger in a housing hidden by all the other pipes and chambers in that photo (I think I have a picture of the pump works under construction, will dig that out). So, the water is drawn in through check valves in the lower half of the housings shown by the green arrows as the plunger goes up. As the plunger comes back down, those check valves close and another set in the top of those same chambers opens, letting the water flow through the pipes with the horizontal yellow arrow, towards the condenser. The upper chambers, shown by the blue arrows, are force chambers, partly full of water, with air at the top. There is a smaller horizontal pipe at the tip of the blue arrows - that comes from an air pump they could use to adjust the level of the water/air in the force chambers, to help with any water-hammering pressure waves. There is also the vertical force chamber you labeled with the vertical yellow arrows on the output - you can just see where the pipes from the far side of the pump array connects in, there are banks of the check valves down both sides of the engine. The far right yellow horizontal arrow, under the lamp posts, is the output pipe that leads to the city.
Hope that helps clear it up? There is another very similar pumping station in Cleveland, they give tours (I have not gotten there yet), and have a website with tons of diagrams:
https://cincinnatitriplesteam.org/steam_museums.htm
They have some documents and brochures on their site that have wonderful diagrams of it all.
Hope that helps, keep the questions coming!
Chris :cheers:

(https://i.postimg.cc/prTLsHsD/Water-Pump-Pipes.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 14, 2021, 09:50:35 PM
Derek, some more pictures of the engine, first from Bufallo, next two from Cleveland. Some of the bits in the Cleveland diagram, like the reheaters, are not on the Bufallo engines.

(https://i.postimg.cc/yYDFd47g/DSC-7492.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/ryn1MF22/Holly-Pumping-Engine-Parts-Photo-2.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/7YjSJsLB/Holly-Pumping-Engine-Animation-60.gif)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 14, 2021, 09:55:04 PM
Oh, and if you ever get the chance, there is a wonderful old double beam engine pump station up in Hamilton Canada. Great air museum up there too. The beam engine is the old Victorian style, very ornate. They run it with an electric motor for tours so you can see the mechanism in action.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on March 14, 2021, 10:41:25 PM
All very interesting work, with beautiful casting design and construction that we would, or could not readily build today

The appears a few inconstancies between the pipe work & components to the working model of the pump

We see  6 x B water pump chamber, each with its own air space above the water level........this level is able to be altered by a cross connection between each of the 6 chambers, so these air spaces each assist in minimising pulsation within the water discharge pressure

One reason for the air refill pipe work as such is that collapsing pressure fields of the check valves pulls air, so then is entrained ad this is progressively forced into the discharged pressurised water [as bubbles], so as needed or periodically, higher pressure air is forced into the 6 x airspaces to replace the lost cushion volume

However in the photograph, we also see a smaller singular vertical accumulator in the spooled T piece before the connection flange where the steam exhaust from the LP piston enters the condenser

So, from the photograph, it appears that the condenser is fed from the HP water spool  :toilet_claw:  with the condenser as shown in the model in an alternate location to the photograph  :shrug:

Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 15, 2021, 12:05:20 AM
Those diagrams were done by the folks in Cincinnati about thier pump, they are not of the Holly pump in Buffalo, so any goofs are thiers. The old construction pics are also not from the Holly pumps. Thier pump is similar in size and layout, but there are differences, especially around the condensor and the reheaters.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on March 15, 2021, 12:51:39 AM
Chris....they are all still absolutely magnificent pieces of engineering  :hammerbash:

Our current engineering Fraternity would have great difficulty in finding Trade qualified Pattern Makers who were able to, or had the knowledge of the myriad of dimensional allowance tables for shrinkage for all of the varying shapes, sizes, volumes and dimensions of components

All of the physical properties are well known in our Universities subjects like "Materials in Engineering", or "Engineerin Materials", however it is the unwritten knowledge gained from actual Foundry Apprenticeship's that are the missing element

As long as you build will not have all of bucket loads of check valves, all will be OK

Looking forward to the continuance  :cheers:   
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 15, 2021, 01:08:04 AM
Chris....they are all still absolutely magnificent pieces of engineering  :hammerbash:

Our current engineering Fraternity would have great difficulty in finding Trade qualified Pattern Makers who were able to, or had the knowledge of the myriad of dimensional allowance tables for shrinkage for all of the varying shapes, sizes, volumes and dimensions of components

All of the physical properties are well known in our Universities subjects like "Materials in Engineering", or "Engineerin Materials", however it is the unwritten knowledge gained from actual Foundry Apprenticeship's that are the missing element

As long as you build will not have all of bucket loads of check valves, all will be OK

Looking forward to the continuance  :cheers:
Yeah, stacking up a 60 foot tall pile of castings, and having them line up boggles my mind!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: MJM460 on March 15, 2021, 10:29:33 AM
Hi Chris, a great start to another great build.  I look forward to plenty of interesting reading to keep up with your build through the coming winter evenings. (Winter in this hemisphere, anyway.)

The valve design in the water cylinders is an interesting consequence of conservation of momentum, or Newton’s observation of a body continuing in a state of constant motion unless acted upon by........

The smaller valves gain much less momentum as they close, so are subject to a much smaller force when they hit the seat.  This force can easily destroy a larger valve.  Then multiple valves are used to achieve the required flow capacity.  But at 1/32 scale, the model valves are inherently much smaller, and subject to much lower force from the pressure, so will have much less momentum.  So unless you are really keen on some mass production of valves, I am sure that one valve in each chamber will do the job very reliably for you.

So many interesting details in a build of such a large machine.

MJM460

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Jo on March 15, 2021, 11:39:05 AM
Yeah, stacking up a 60 foot tall pile of castings, and having them line up boggles my mind!

Someone has just recovered from the idea of all those castings and now he wants to try experimenting to see if it is possible. The first problem is he is claiming is that he is short of castings   :facepalm:

Jo
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Admiral_dk on March 15, 2021, 12:12:44 PM
Thank you very much for the animated drawings Chris - helped to see / visualize the function :ThumbsUp:

Nice to see you back Jo - I had hoped that Surus would slow down on him bothering you  :cheers:

Per

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dan Rowe on March 15, 2021, 01:25:01 PM
Hi Chris, I knew about these engines and that they were for pumps but I never worked out where the pumps were. Thanks for the link to a bunch of pumping engines. I have been to the one at Hamiliton but now I have a bunch more to see.

Thinking about led's for lighting, there needs to be a current limiting resistor in series with the led which takes up space. Here is a small surface mount led with the resistor on the board. The holes will pass a 1.2mm or a 00-90 screw.
https://www.adafruit.com/product/1758

Cheers Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 15, 2021, 01:26:35 PM
Yeah, stacking up a 60 foot tall pile of castings, and having them line up boggles my mind!

Someone has just recovered from the idea of all those castings and now he wants to try experimenting to see if it is possible. The first problem is he is claiming is that he is short of castings   :facepalm:

Jo
Hmmm, how about a version of the wooden kids blocks shaped like engine parts... Sounds like a fun toy set!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 15, 2021, 01:34:12 PM
Hi Chris, a great start to another great build.  I look forward to plenty of interesting reading to keep up with your build through the coming winter evenings. (Winter in this hemisphere, anyway.)

The valve design in the water cylinders is an interesting consequence of conservation of momentum, or Newton’s observation of a body continuing in a state of constant motion unless acted upon by........

The smaller valves gain much less momentum as they close, so are subject to a much smaller force when they hit the seat.  This force can easily destroy a larger valve.  Then multiple valves are used to achieve the required flow capacity.  But at 1/32 scale, the model valves are inherently much smaller, and subject to much lower force from the pressure, so will have much less momentum.  So unless you are really keen on some mass production of valves, I am sure that one valve in each chamber will do the job very reliably for you.

So many interesting details in a build of such a large machine.

MJM460
Can you imagine the size of a single ball type check valve equivalent to all those smaller ones (even they are inches across). It would be like the boulder that chased Indiana Jones!   :hellno:   The valves they used look more like IC engine valves/seats, each with a seating spring.

I was thinking that I may make the chambers down one side with cutaway sides to show the valves, 3D printed, and have the chambers down the other side have simple ball check valves of 1/4" or 3/8" size for function.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 15, 2021, 01:40:17 PM
Hi Chris, I knew about these engines and that they were for pumps but I never worked out where the pumps were. Thanks for the link to a bunch of pumping engines. I have been to the one at Hamiliton but now I have a bunch more to see.

Thinking about led's for lighting, there needs to be a current limiting resistor in series with the led which takes up space. Here is a small surface mount led with the resistor on the board. The holes will pass a 1.2mm or a 00-90 screw.
https://www.adafruit.com/product/1758 (https://www.adafruit.com/product/1758)

Cheers Dan
Those guys have some great led setups - saved that link!
I also found these on Amazon, really small ones with the resistors to run off different voltages, and solid wires so they dont droop down from a ceiling on the model:
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B07P8TQHDC/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 15, 2021, 09:22:34 PM
More done on the base plates - clamped the drill guide to each end of each of the plates, and drilled the larger diameter holes, which are the registration holes for the uprights and the plates to the floor. These holes were then tapped.
(https://i.postimg.cc/GtmWzr1F/IMG-9078.jpg)
Next step is to drill all the smaller holes (2-56 tap size), which will hold the pump valve chambers and the corners of the uprights. For these, the drill guide was bolted down, and I am using the small Proxxon drill press since the drill needs to be 'pecked' going through, removing it frequently to help clear chips in these deep holes. The mill would work for this, but it takes a lot longer to crank it up/down than to just move the lever on the drill press. The little drill press has a good feel for this kind of work, and the drill guide self-aligns with the holes when starting as long as I dont hold the plate too hard till it gets started.

(https://i.postimg.cc/MH3hF4Wh/IMG-9082.jpg)
In the picture, the first side (on the right) has had all the holes drilled, and its ready to drill the set on the left. Once all three plates are drilled this way, I'll set up to do a similar pattern in the center of each plate for the main pump chamber. Then, LOTS of holes to tap! Going to be at this stage for a while.... (whenever these jobs come up, the shop elves always have excuses, doctor appointments, trade shows, elf conventions, whatever, so they can't help out! )
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: gary.a.ayres on March 16, 2021, 12:36:05 AM
Wow... the original is a veritable Leviathan!

Your CAD model is a work of art in itself, and no doubt your model will be even more so.

A fabulous project in skilled hands such as yours...

 :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 16, 2021, 12:59:06 AM
Wow... the original is a veritable Leviathan!

Your CAD model is a work of art in itself, and no doubt your model will be even more so.

A fabulous project in skilled hands such as yours...

 :popcorn:
Thanks Gary! I was hooked when I walked in the door of the pump station and looked up (and up) at the row of five of these beasts!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: gary.a.ayres on March 16, 2021, 08:51:45 AM
Reminds me of this beauty in the UK, which my daughter and I visited a couple of years ago:

http://www.kemptonsteam.org/

Our next one will be Crossness Pumping Station, as soon as things are safe again.

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on March 16, 2021, 03:41:29 PM
Hi Chris, another option re LED lights, that may make mounting and connecting LED's easier, are the battery powered strip LED lights as shown in my attached jpeg file. There are many firms offering these from China very cheap. The ones in the pic can be cut from the 1 metre strip into individual LED lights with their own resistor next to them, and wired in parallel to the supplied battery case. Wires can be connected by soldering to the bare copper tabs at the edge of each module. The strip has good quality self adhesive on the back to attach each light to a surface. For less than $10 USD delivered to your door you get a whole metre of light strip and a decent battery box. Just food for thought.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 16, 2021, 04:00:11 PM
Hi CNR,


I have led strip lights just like those, put them under my kitchen cabinets years ago to light the countertops better. They work great. The ones I have can be cut into groups of three, and don't need any extra resistors. Still have a coil of them, could definitely use them on the model. I've ordered a bag of the tiny individual ones too, be interesting to compare them. The individual tiny ones could be fit into little scale fixtures too. Plenty of time to experiment on this project!


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steam guy willy on March 16, 2021, 04:30:11 PM
Hi Chris , this is going to be an interesting build, and there is so much to think about all at once !!!  Do you have all the drawings for this or are you having to measure everything up yourself ??  will be watching avidly to pickup all the info and tips for when or iff i undertake a similar project.. More grease to your elbow as we say over here in Blighty !!!   :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: ddmckee54 on March 16, 2021, 04:41:56 PM
Chris:

Looks like you've got about a GAZILLION holes to tap, maybe two or three gazillion since there will be multiple levels to this beast.  With the elves all conveniently occupied elsewhere, doing important stuff I'm sure, can you power tap at that size?  Or are you going to be hand tapping holes 24/7 for the next couple of months/years? (My finger tips are getting sore just thinking about it.)

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: gary.a.ayres on March 16, 2021, 04:49:22 PM
Hi Chris, another option re LED lights, that may make mounting and connecting LED's easier, are the battery powered strip LED lights as shown in my attached jpeg file. There are many firms offering these from China very cheap. The ones in the pic can be cut from the 1 metre strip into individual LED lights with their own resistor next to them, and wired in parallel to the supplied battery case. Wires can be connected by soldering to the bare copper tabs at the edge of each module. The strip has good quality self adhesive on the back to attach each light to a surface. For less than $10 USD delivered to your door you get a whole metre of light strip and a decent battery box. Just food for thought.

Yes - these things are handy and very versatile.
This engine is gonna be a beauty illuminated with them!
 8)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: mklotz on March 16, 2021, 05:09:53 PM
I'm not big on power tapping, especially on objects in which I've invested a lot of time, but for the small stuff I think an electric screwdriver with its epicyclic drive can be an option.

You can read my thoughts on the subject here...

https://www.homemadetools.net/forum/tapping-screwdriver-51506#post74544
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 16, 2021, 06:06:03 PM
Hi Chris , this is going to be an interesting build, and there is so much to think about all at once !!!  Do you have all the drawings for this or are you having to measure everything up yourself ??  will be watching avidly to pickup all the info and tips for when or iff i undertake a similar project.. More grease to your elbow as we say over here in Blighty !!!   :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Hi Willy!
I got lucky, after I got a tour of the pumphouse a few years ago I asked the guy who organized the tour about getting access to take measurements. It turns out that he had found the original builders blueprints rolled up on a shelf in the back of the building several years before, and he very kindly gave me a copy of the scans he had done of every page - hundreds of pages of plans for the entire engine and building layout too. Quite a find, and very rare. I have spent the last couple years using those plans to make the 3D CAD model at full scale - then took a copy of it and scaled it down to 1:32nd scale, and am making the 2D drawings for the model from that.  Much as I would have loved to crawl all over the real engine, probably just as well that I was not hanging 60' in the air with a tape measure!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 16, 2021, 06:12:46 PM
Gary/Marv, I have used a power drill in the past for tapping, but only on larger sizes like 1/4-20. For small stuff like 2-56 and 1-72, I would never attempt it for tapping in metal, much prefer the feel of hand tapping for the little stuff. Even with brass, all it takes is one chip to bind up and likely break a tap, and the extra length I'd be holding with the drill would tend to put that much more side torque on the tap.
These base pieces have the most holes per square inch as any parts on this model, once past them it will be more like one per corner of a part. The pipe flanges have tons of screws, but those will more likely be studs with nuts through clearance-drilled holes.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 16, 2021, 08:09:37 PM
Today saw the last of the holes drilled in the two outer rings (another ring of holes goes in the center next). Then enlarged the two rows of holes towards the center to 3/8" diameter with an end mill - tried it first with drills, but the end mill actually went faster and gave a cleaner hole. I dont know what these particular holes are for, whether they were just a way of lightening the plate some, or if they needed access to a drain underneath. There is no way to crawl under the plates from those holes, there is a series of flanges on the bottom down to the floor. But, they are there in the original drawings so I am putting them in!
(https://i.postimg.cc/CM64J1bJ/IMG-9083.jpg)
The plates so far:
(https://i.postimg.cc/7hbnw8rg/IMG-9085.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/d3Xm0HJg/IMG-9084.jpg)
I am not going to start tapping the rings of holes yet - going to wait till the gridwork is milled in on the bottom first, which will make the surface with the holes thinner. The top surface will get relief cuts around the rings and pads too. Next up, I am going to add the smaller inner ring of holes to the drill guide and the three bases.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on March 16, 2021, 08:29:00 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Craig DeShong on March 17, 2021, 02:06:56 AM
Chris is making Chinese puzzles, ”Try to locate the place that is missing a hole”. :ROFL:

Like everyone else,I’m can’t wait for the next installment.



 :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 17, 2021, 02:24:51 AM
Chris is making Chinese puzzles, ”Try to locate the place that is missing a hole”. :ROFL:

Like everyone else,I’m can’t wait for the next installment.



 :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
I told the shop elves its a connect-the-dots picture of Elfvira. They've used up three pens so far!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 17, 2021, 02:17:03 PM
Like everyone else,I’m can’t wait for the next installment.

wait? All I do is blink and there seems to be another page of posts.  ::)

I sometimes think he has a shop of 20-some ghost machinists (think ghost writers) who never get credit.
Can't be the elves. The work is too good.  ;D
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 17, 2021, 02:46:59 PM
Like everyone else,I’m can’t wait for the next installment.

wait? All I do is blink and there seems to be another page of posts.  ::)

I sometimes think he has a shop of 20-some ghost machinists (think ghost writers) who never get credit.
Can't be the elves. The work is too good.  ;D
Dang, Zee peeked in the window of the factory building!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Don1966 on March 17, 2021, 05:01:42 PM
Awwww my hero, masterful work Dog....... :Love:




 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 17, 2021, 05:17:47 PM
As mentioned, I got another circle of holes in the drill guide for the center pattern, which will hold the pump plunger chamber. This pattern is a little smaller diameter and has fewer holes. Used that like with the outer patterns in the small drill press:
(https://i.postimg.cc/HxPNSbMp/IMG-9086.jpg)
With all the holes drilled in the base plates, time to start the relief shaping on the top surfaces. Started with the center rings, milled in on the rotary table with the plate held on a faceplate drilled/tapped to match the holes in the plate.
(https://i.postimg.cc/x8w4QYgh/IMG-9087.jpg)
To get the relief cuts in past the screws, some clamps were used to finish those areas, with the screws taken out.
Then finished up with the outer ring.

(https://i.postimg.cc/4y7Sjnvp/IMG-9088.jpg)
For one of the three base plates, the one for the LP cylinder, there will be another partial ring extending off to the side. This is on the blueprints for the engine, but there are no parts that sit on this ring. It is clear from notations on the plans that Holly re-used a lot of parts between engines, so this extra ring must either be for another engine style, or maybe it was for the original steam exhaust drain, and it was not used after the condensor was added. I doubt that though, since the plans dont show any piping that would connect here. Maybe steam engines have unused appendages left over after they evolved from dinosaur engines?  :Lol:

Center rings cut in on the first two plates:
(https://i.postimg.cc/y6D67Pvy/IMG-9089.jpg)
One more plate to go, then will start on the outer rings. The field around all the rings will be taken down after that, leaving the pads at the corners where the engine upright frames attach.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: ddmckee54 on March 17, 2021, 05:39:55 PM
Dinosaur engines?  You learn something new everyday.  I always thought that steam engines evolved from water wheels.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: kvom on March 18, 2021, 12:24:44 PM
This build is Chris showing off.   ^-^  Many months of entertainment for us in the gallery.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 18, 2021, 12:33:00 PM
This build is Chris showing off.   ^-^  Many months of entertainment for us in the gallery.
Don't forget to lob some peanuts in from the gallery for me!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 18, 2021, 03:33:20 PM
Got the center rings on all three plates milled down, then did the one plate with the partial ring out the side that I mentioned:
(https://i.postimg.cc/76P7QqQx/IMG-9090.jpg)
Then started in on the outer rings, beginning with the shapes at the very end - the pads at the corner that will hold the frame uprights, and the edge of the ring between them.
(https://i.postimg.cc/brsnp3hW/IMG-9096.jpg)
Doing the rest of the rings needed a couple of steps, since the base plates are too long to be able to swing in a full circle without hitting the mill column. So, with the center of the rotary table off to one side, did the first 3/4 or so of each circle:
(https://i.postimg.cc/x1HKXxzS/IMG-9097.jpg)
then movedf the table over to the other side of the column to finish off the arcs. The outsides of the rings meet the corner pads, so I stopped a little short there, and will do the pad edges with the bases held in the vise.

(https://i.postimg.cc/Pqj1YWWv/IMG-9099.jpg)
With all the rings outlined, switched out the rotary table for the big mill vise, and squared up the edges of the corner pads
(https://i.postimg.cc/1zrwH8BC/IMG-9100.jpg)
That leaves the rest of the field areas to take down, doing that in sections to reduce the overhang from the vise:
(https://i.postimg.cc/63HZkFDC/IMG-9101.jpg)
The tool marks show up looking nasty in the shop lights, but they feel smooth. I'll take them down with some sanding to a clean finish.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 18, 2021, 06:01:44 PM
The rest of the background is milled back on the tops of the base plates, and took the detail sander to them to smooth out the end mill toolmarks
(https://i.postimg.cc/QCq0BjYw/IMG-9102.jpg)
The shop elf on the upper right seems to approve, though the one just left of him seems to have fallen over. Too much Guinness from that pile of barrels!

Next up will be to cut the open gridwork into the undersides of the plates. Some might ask why, since it wont be seen, but I will know, plus it will take a bunch more weight out of the model. Just the cutting so far has taken them from about 5 pounds each down to 4, the gridwork should cut that in half again. After the gridwork, final step will be to taper the sides like the originals are. Lots of work in these bases, but I am glad I was not the one that had to pack all that sand into the casting molds for the originals! At 10' by 21.6', that must have been an interesting pour to watch!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on March 18, 2021, 09:41:56 PM
Looking great Chris!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

The brass stock does not seem to have warped much after milling the first side - probably not bananium then!  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 18, 2021, 09:47:45 PM
Looking great Chris!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

The brass stock does not seem to have warped much after milling the first side - probably not bananium then!  :Lol:
Nope - no warping at all - I had stress relieved it first, an hour at 500F in the oven and let it cool. Does a great job to keep the brass bar stock from bending as one side is milled away. Otherwise, its pure Bananium!  Helps to make sure there is no oil/grease on the bars first, or the oven gets real smokey and stinks up the house.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: gary.a.ayres on March 18, 2021, 10:26:11 PM
Looking great.

 :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on March 18, 2021, 11:20:26 PM
Hi Chris, good plan re the stress relief before machining. The oil removal before using the house oven is good advice. I incurred domestic wrath a few times tempering things or heating motorcycle / small engine parts for valve guide or insert installs, when I didn't get all the oil off.  They were   :facepalm: :slap: :help: situations.

My wife is extremely supportive of my workshop activities - as long as there is no oil smoke or swarf brought in the house! :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: john mills on March 19, 2021, 12:06:34 AM
Hi
to get the oil off you could run them through the dish washer .
I was working werehwe reconditioned engines .

The managing director had read about using dishwashers for cleaning small parts .Not telling us what he was intending he requested a tray containing 200 hyrolicic valve lifters or cam followers he was given the requested tray 200 parts dripping sump oil .he went home when the wife went out shopping the tray was put in the dish washer in the kitchen and the cycle started .we were told when the door was opened after a few minutes
oil every where  only thing that could be done was shut the door and continue the cycle.when the wife was heard returning  quick the cycle had finished everything clean took the tray out side .raided the pantry for some spray cooking oil to stop rusting .wife never new and the method of cleaning found to work.

John
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: fumopuc on March 19, 2021, 07:03:30 AM
The sky there in Rochester must be darken by some brass swarf.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 19, 2021, 12:09:06 PM
The sky there in Rochester must be darken by some brass swarf.
Sky is currently clear, but I had checked the 5 gallon collector bucket on the vacuum/seperator the other day, it was almost full and had to be emptied of its combination of steel, brass, wood, plastic from the last few projects!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on March 19, 2021, 01:28:26 PM
 :thinking:...and I felt certain all of that brass swarf would have been saved for heat treatment  :Mad: cooling beds..........

Maybe, as  I am just starting so 100 years beyond your treasure.. :wine1:

Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 19, 2021, 02:17:19 PM
:thinking: ...and I felt certain all of that brass swarf would have been save for heat treatment  :Mad: cooling beds..........

Maybe, as  I am just starting so 100 years beyond your treasure.. :wine1:

Derek
What a cute little jar of swarf. I think I made more than that this morning...   :Lol:

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 19, 2021, 04:04:56 PM
So, with the top faces on the base plates done, time to turn them over and put the gridwork into the bottom faces. Took some time to work out the pattern of movements to hit the corners of the openings with a small end mill, wrote that down, and followed the recipe to put holes at all the corners of the grids. This will make taking out the centers of the areas simple, just keep cutting till tangent with the corner holes.
(https://i.postimg.cc/DwFb1KHg/IMG-9103.jpg)
I sketched on the edges of the grids to make it easy to keep track of where I am - with the through-holes from the top side it can get confusing as to whats a corner hole and whats a through hole. Did this pattern on all three plates, then switched to a larger diameter end mill and started taking out the centers of the openings - these go about 3/4 of the way through the base.
(https://i.postimg.cc/vZzxzNdd/IMG-9104.jpg)
A few more sessions should see the grids roughed out - will go back with the smaller end mill to take the sides of the openings back to finished dimension, this step is just to remove the bulk of the material. So, I'll be returning the brass to its original swarf form, ready to be set free out in the wild.   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on March 19, 2021, 05:18:20 PM
That's gonna be a LOT of brass swarf!  :popcorn:

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on March 19, 2021, 08:52:52 PM
I think I'll make a backyard brass swarf feeder this weekend, in case any of Chris's brass swarf wanders by on its' return to the wild......... :insane: :Lol:

Machining looks great Chris!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Pretty soon you will be able to direct people to a particular hole on a picture by saying "on the northwest corner of A street at 3rd street, in LP town"  :naughty: :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 19, 2021, 09:15:19 PM
I think I'll make a backyard brass swarf feeder this weekend, in case any of Chris's brass swarf wanders by on its' return to the wild......... :insane: :Lol:

Machining looks great Chris!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Pretty soon you will be able to direct people to a particular hole on a picture by saying "on the northwest corner of A street at 3rd street, in LP town"  :naughty: :cheers:


 :lolb:


So far, I am making the catacombs...!


Must be removing a bunch, noticing that the first baseplate is a lot lighter than it started.  Was looking ahead to the crankshaft base plates that will sit up at the top of the lower frames. Those bases are very thick, will likely piece them up from plate stock given thier size.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: samc88 on March 20, 2021, 10:54:29 AM
Lovely work, looks an impressive project. Cant be the only one disappointed that you aren't making 1260 check valves though!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 20, 2021, 11:37:45 AM
Lovely work, looks an impressive project. Cant be the only one disappointed that you aren't making 1260 check valves though!
If it was only 1000 I would...    :Jester:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Don1966 on March 20, 2021, 04:04:50 PM
You never cease to amaze me Dog...... :Love:



 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 20, 2021, 05:33:05 PM
Thanks Don! Great to have you along.

Yesterday I started taking out the center sections of the grids with a medium sized end mill. It is too big to get all the way into the corners, but it takes out the bulk of the material pretty easily.
(https://i.postimg.cc/wx0JP2Mc/IMG-9105.jpg)
Then went back and used the smaller cutter to trimm the sides out to size and tangent with the corners. This part went a lot faster.
(https://i.postimg.cc/7Yh7yzTv/IMG-9106.jpg)
So, one set of very heavy small parts trays, or a brass waffle maker for the elves, is done. Started in on the next one, have about 3/4 of the centers taken out on that one so far. I got tired of holding the end of the vacuum nozzle near the cutter to keep the chips from obstructing the view of the edges, and grabbed an offcut of large steer bar, taped the nozzle to that, and set it next to the mill. Much more convenient that way.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on March 20, 2021, 11:50:40 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

I'm sure you thought of this when you were laying out the grids in CAD- are the openings sized so they are just a bit tight to fit any possible multiple array of Elfensteiner stubby empties? Wouldn't want the shop elves to appropriate these beauty grid plates to become the world's most well made but expensive beer crates!   :Lol:

Hope the shop elves are coping OK with their 223 wheelbarrow loads per day of the brass swarf. Thirsty work to be sure,,,,,, :naughty:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 20, 2021, 11:57:29 PM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

I'm sure you thought of this when you were laying out the grids in CAD- are the openings sized so they are just a bit tight to fit any possible multiple array of Elfensteiner stubby empties? Wouldn't want the shop elves to appropriate these beauty grid plates to become the world's most well made but expensive beer crates!   :Lol:

Hope the shop elves are coping OK with their 223 wheelbarrow loads per day of the brass swarf. Thirsty work to be sure,,,,,, :naughty:
Huh. That would explain the little bottle caps in the grids...   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Elam Works on March 21, 2021, 03:39:35 AM
Chris,

Well when you have the elves on piece rates you cannot expect them to take time to walk over to the trash receptacle. Lucky you are not running CNC or they probably would be wizzing in the coolant tanks...

-Doug
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: PJPickard on March 21, 2021, 12:44:37 PM
Every project of your is really interesting to me...this one is REALLY interesting! Looking forward to watching this one!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 21, 2021, 01:17:29 PM
Every project of your is really interesting to me...this one is REALLY interesting! Looking forward to watching this one!
Glad to have you along for the ride - there are a bunch of parts that will be new challenges for me, will be figuring out a lot as I go along on how to fabricate things.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 21, 2021, 07:50:19 PM
More work this afternoon on the third beer crate, I mean base plate....
(https://i.postimg.cc/cCQD2JC5/IMG-9107.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on March 21, 2021, 08:14:06 PM
You're almost to the end of the waffle iron plates there Chris!  But shouldn't your help there be wearing eye protection?   At least the beer isn't open while he's operating the machinery!  You'd have Elf-OSHA (ElfSHA?) all over you for that!

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 22, 2021, 04:03:08 PM
You're almost to the end of the waffle iron plates there Chris!  But shouldn't your help there be wearing eye protection?   At least the beer isn't open while he's operating the machinery!  You'd have Elf-OSHA (ElfSHA?) all over you for that!

Kim
Better to have the occasional Elf-Sha visit than a Oh-Sh** !
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 22, 2021, 04:10:10 PM
So, with the waffle-maker patterns complete, last bit of milling is to angle the edges of the plates. For the long sides, the plates were stood up on edge and shims put at the bottom on one side and the top on the other side to tilt it over the 4.9 degree angle, checked with a protractor.
(https://i.postimg.cc/1XSfYZmm/IMG-9110.jpg)
The mill height was set to cut almost to the lower edge, and passes made to take the side down, leaving a lip at the top. That lip was then taken off square to the plate by removing the shims and letting the plate stand vertical.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Y0xj5y01/IMG-9111.jpg)
For the short edges, standing it up on end would leave too much sticking out of the vise, so I turned the vise sideways and put a shim under one end of the plate.
(https://i.postimg.cc/WpmDqt8h/IMG-9113.jpg)
then likewise setting the plate flat and milling the lip at the top off. Here is a vieew of the completed angles - doesn't show up that great in the pictures, but in person the compound angles give a nice look, much better than the square vertical edges. I assume they did the angles to make it easier to make and remove the casting molds. Thats a good question for the casting experts out there - would something this huge be done in a sand mold, or would they have done it some other way that I cannot think of? In modern construction a lot of stuff like this would be pieced up by welding robots, but that was not an option back then.   :thinking:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on March 22, 2021, 05:26:43 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Yes on the sand casting for the originals. Such large castings would be "floor" or "pit" mouldings, actually done in the sand / loam floor of the foundry. Wood pattern for lower half of casting would be rammed up deep in the floor, parting lines arranged as usual. The upper half of the mould was often rammed up in a large "floor flask" frame grid , the pattern pulled out, and the upper half mould turned over and placed on the lower half, using the crane. Lots of weight added to the mould's upper half to resist the buouancy of the iron. The casting would be poured from a big ladle handled by the crane, or in really big pours, direct from the cupola in floor channels to the mould. Some castings if a flat top was possible with no coring were poured "open" with no top mould, and sand thrown on top after initial solidification to stop chilling / hard spots. Locomotive cast frames were done this way in some cases. Floor moulding area of foundries was an extremely dangerous workplace. Putting your boot or hand down in the wrong place could be fatal or at least result in a catastrophic injury. I witnessed a few small and medium size floor pours with cast steel (thankfully with no safety related incidents at all) during a co-op at a steel making firm when I was a student. Not long afterward, that type/scale of large casting industry, iron or steel,  pretty much disappeared in Ontario Canada. Lots of it still done in Korea and Taiwan I understand, for the ship engine / heavy equipment markets. Still several excellent foundries in Ontario doing smaller iron castings and non ferrous.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 22, 2021, 07:28:50 PM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Yes on the sand casting for the originals. Such large castings would be "floor" or "pit" mouldings, actually done in the sand / loam floor of the foundry. Wood pattern for lower half of casting would be rammed up deep in the floor, parting lines arranged as usual. The upper half of the mould was often rammed up in a large "floor flask" frame grid , the pattern pulled out, and the upper half mould turned over and placed on the lower half, using the crane. Lots of weight added to the mould's upper half to resist the buouancy of the iron. The casting would be poured from a big ladle handled by the crane, or in really big pours, direct from the cupola in floor channels to the mould. Some castings if a flat top was possible with no coring were poured "open" with no top mould, and sand thrown on top after initial solidification to stop chilling / hard spots. Locomotive cast frames were done this way in some cases. Floor moulding area of foundries was an extremely dangerous workplace. Putting your boot or hand down in the wrong place could be fatal or at least result in a catastrophic injury. I witnessed a few small and medium size floor pours with cast steel (thankfully with no safety related incidents at all) during a co-op at a steel making firm when I was a student. Not long afterward, that type/scale of large casting industry, iron or steel,  pretty much disappeared in Ontario Canada. Lots of it still done in Korea and Taiwan I understand, for the ship engine / heavy equipment markets. Still several excellent foundries in Ontario doing smaller iron castings and non ferrous.
Fascinating! Amazing how many ways that same basic technology was used.


And this was the first time I ever heard the phrase 'bouyancy of the iron', though now that you mention it I have seen videos of casting work where weights were placed on top of the upper flask.

Thanks for the info!!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 22, 2021, 07:30:28 PM
And no shop time this afternoon, we finally got some sunny weather up around 70F so I packed the elves into the RC submarine and took them down to the pond for the first RC run of the season. Great to get outside and play!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on March 22, 2021, 09:48:01 PM
Yep, too nice outside to be inside all day. I was out at noon for a good walk.

I'll have a troll around in yoot ube and see if anyone has posted any video of floor moulding / casting of big parts.

 I wouldn't think the icebreaker would be needed on the submarine pond, but any scale iceberg floaters? Hope the elves were sobered up and had no hangovers for their silent run.  :Lol:

Hope you had fun with the RC boats.   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 22, 2021, 10:36:03 PM
Yep, too nice outside to be inside all day. I was out at noon for a good walk.

I'll have a troll around in yoot ube and see if anyone has posted any video of floor moulding / casting of big parts.

 I wouldn't think the icebreaker would be needed on the submarine pond, but any scale iceberg floaters? Hope the elves were sobered up and had no hangovers for their silent run.  :Lol:

Hope you had fun with the RC boats.   :cheers:
Perfect afternoon out - weekday so not many people around, all the ice is gone, water level was high, and the Weed Monster has not migrated back north yet!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: gary.a.ayres on March 22, 2021, 10:54:20 PM
Impressive milling on that plate...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 22, 2021, 11:07:59 PM
Impressive milling on that plate...
Thanks Gary! One plate was enough, but in this case it needs three of them so it took a fair bit longer! Even though the grid work wont be seen in the final model, it does reduce the weight by half.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 23, 2021, 03:51:42 PM
Some done this morning - got the bolt holes drilled through the aluminum floor plate (currently being painted concrete grey) for the base plates and the wood base. It was too big for one go in the mill, so I laid out and drilled the holes down one side, bolted the bases on, and used them as drill guides for the other holes (after making sure they were nice and square to the floor and the proper distances apart). There are 8 holes holding each base down, one in each corner under the frame pads, and four more closer to the center. The bolts for the corners will go up through the frames, and get a nut where they come out on the frame legs (this is how the originals were).

(https://i.postimg.cc/Fzc7hqJ7/IMG-9118.jpg)
Then, the UPS truck showed up just in time with my order from LMS of a hand tapping jig. Never used one before, but with this many holes in the bases and all the small holes to come in the frames and floor plates, thought it was worth a try. Looks very promising, did the first 8 or 10 holes pretty quick with a 2-56 tap. Couple complaints with it: it is set up and labeled for inch-size tap bases, but its set screws are all metric sockets.   :facepalm2:   The holes in the adapters for the taps are too large, so the tap gets held off-center - I made a little brass bushing for the small tap sizes to fix that, easy. Lastly, the big bolts that hold the upper frame to the base plate it came with are too long, and stuck out the bottom, causing it to rock. An extra washer fixed that. Simple stuff. Overall, I like it, and it saved me the time/materials to make my own.
(https://i.postimg.cc/BZ1858w4/IMG-9135.jpg)
And its easy enough to use that a couple cookies have bribed, er, enticed, the shop elves to help out!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on March 23, 2021, 04:01:57 PM
Glad to see the cookies got the handle swingers into action!

A thought on the metric setscrews - if you change them to be a little longer you can maybe order ones with a slot for a screwdriver or cut a slot in them for one yourself. Or silver solder inch size sockets from inch capscrews onto them!

In my case I'd consider firing up my homebuilt EDM and burn the sockets out to next bigger inch size using a hex brass or copper electrode. For small setscrews it would only take a few minutes' burn time.

 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on March 23, 2021, 04:30:55 PM
Interesting little gadget, Chris. You'll have to let us know how you like it in a few hundred threads :)  :popcorn:
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Roger B on March 23, 2021, 05:45:03 PM
Wonderful  :praise2:  :praise2: So many holes and so much swarf  :)  :ThumbsUp:  :wine1:

Is the tapping tool designed to be lubricated with Elfsteiner?

I tend to use my little Proxxon bench drill as a tapping tool but I am usually working against the return spring.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 23, 2021, 07:38:52 PM
Wonderful  :praise2: :praise2: So many holes and so much swarf  :) :ThumbsUp: :wine1:

Is the tapping tool designed to be lubricated with Elfsteiner?

I tend to use my little Proxxon bench drill as a tapping tool but I am usually working against the return spring.
I actually considered doing that, if I spot a used one cheap I'd have gotten it, taken off that spring, and put a t handle on the top pulley.


I'll have to look in the shop and see if the elves did any more, I have been off at the pond again.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 23, 2021, 09:39:02 PM
After dinner went in and gave the new tapping thingy a good workout - I like it. Made short work of tapping the 72 holes in one plate with a 2-56 tap, never had risk of twisting the tap off to the side, and it is easier on the wrists than holding everything by hand with a t-handle holder. There is still the repetitive motion, but its less, and backing the tap out can be done by twirling the t-handle with one finger. The unit is pretty heavy, which is good, no wobbling about on the table. If it needed more height to get over a tall part, it should be easy to make an extension for the base, between the cast part and the base plate.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: mklotz on March 23, 2021, 09:48:17 PM
Do think about adding a fitting to the top of the shaft so it can be driven with an electric screwdriver.  It might save you from wrist problems due to repetitive motion.  I think a screwdriver is the best choice because it has very low RPM and instantaneous start/stop when the switch is released.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 23, 2021, 09:49:56 PM
Do think about adding a fitting to the top of the shaft so it can be driven with an electric screwdriver.  It might save you from wrist problems due to repetitive motion.  I think a screwdriver is the best choice because it has very low RPM and instantaneous start/stop when the switch is released.
Like one of the small ones they use for electronic assembly? I have a big screw gun, the size of a normal drill, but that would be way too big. The little ones could be good though.

 :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: mklotz on March 24, 2021, 03:21:05 PM
Like one of the small ones they use for electronic assembly? I have a big screw gun, the size of a normal drill, but that would be way too big. The little ones could be good though.

Yes, a little one, e.g...

https://www.amazon.com/BLACK-DECKER-Li2000-Rechargeable-Screwdriver/dp/B005LTNLDS/ref=sxin_10_ac_d_rm?ac_md=0-0-ZWxlY3RyaWMgc2NyZXdkcml2ZXIgY29yZGxlc3M%3D-ac_d_rm&crid=3SV4KYZ3S8OEA&cv_ct_cx=electric+screwdriver+cordless&dchild=1&keywords=electric+screwdriver+cordless&pd_rd_i=B005LTNLDS&pd_rd_r=1fc33618-8346-4fb9-bac6-8a203197b763&pd_rd_w=HnbNW&pd_rd_wg=wAPNL&pf_rd_p=b0625ac1-ea22-4a1c-8206-57129b08e075&pf_rd_r=JRZN3FVQN2QGGD7TRC91&psc=1&qid=1616598811&sprefix=electric+screw%2Caps%2C238&sr=1-1-12d4272d-8adb-4121-8624-135149aa9081

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 24, 2021, 03:26:08 PM
Like one of the small ones they use for electronic assembly? I have a big screw gun, the size of a normal drill, but that would be way too big. The little ones could be good though.

Yes, a little one, e.g...

https://www.amazon.com/BLACK-DECKER-Li2000-Rechargeable-Screwdriver/dp/B005LTNLDS/ref=sxin_10_ac_d_rm?ac_md=0-0-ZWxlY3RyaWMgc2NyZXdkcml2ZXIgY29yZGxlc3M%3D-ac_d_rm&crid=3SV4KYZ3S8OEA&cv_ct_cx=electric+screwdriver+cordless&dchild=1&keywords=electric+screwdriver+cordless&pd_rd_i=B005LTNLDS&pd_rd_r=1fc33618-8346-4fb9-bac6-8a203197b763&pd_rd_w=HnbNW&pd_rd_wg=wAPNL&pf_rd_p=b0625ac1-ea22-4a1c-8206-57129b08e075&pf_rd_r=JRZN3FVQN2QGGD7TRC91&psc=1&qid=1616598811&sprefix=electric+screw%2Caps%2C238&sr=1-1-12d4272d-8adb-4121-8624-135149aa9081 (https://www.amazon.com/BLACK-DECKER-Li2000-Rechargeable-Screwdriver/dp/B005LTNLDS/ref=sxin_10_ac_d_rm?ac_md=0-0-ZWxlY3RyaWMgc2NyZXdkcml2ZXIgY29yZGxlc3M%3D-ac_d_rm&crid=3SV4KYZ3S8OEA&cv_ct_cx=electric+screwdriver+cordless&dchild=1&keywords=electric+screwdriver+cordless&pd_rd_i=B005LTNLDS&pd_rd_r=1fc33618-8346-4fb9-bac6-8a203197b763&pd_rd_w=HnbNW&pd_rd_wg=wAPNL&pf_rd_p=b0625ac1-ea22-4a1c-8206-57129b08e075&pf_rd_r=JRZN3FVQN2QGGD7TRC91&psc=1&qid=1616598811&sprefix=electric+screw%2Caps%2C238&sr=1-1-12d4272d-8adb-4121-8624-135149aa9081)
Looks worth a try, thanks Marv!   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RonGinger on March 24, 2021, 08:59:14 PM
Have a look at one made by Dewalt- it  has a gyroscope in it and you control the speed by simple twist of you wrist. It works in any orientation- straight up, down, any  where.  You pick it up, point it into the screw and give a slight twist and it starts to run. Twist more and it runs faster. I got it for less than this one on Amazon with just the driver.

https://www.amazon.com/DEWALT-DCF682N1-Gyroscopic-Screwdriver-Screwdriving/dp/B07S8D62P6/ref=sr_1_26?crid=17WXPANR4WJ4&dchild=1&keywords=dewalt+screw+gun+cordless&qid=1616619355&sprefix=dewalt+scrrew%2Caps%2C181&sr=8-26 (https://www.amazon.com/DEWALT-DCF682N1-Gyroscopic-Screwdriver-Screwdriving/dp/B07S8D62P6/ref=sr_1_26?crid=17WXPANR4WJ4&dchild=1&keywords=dewalt+screw+gun+cordless&qid=1616619355&sprefix=dewalt+scrrew%2Caps%2C181&sr=8-26)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 24, 2021, 09:20:34 PM
Funny that Marv. I just put one in my cart the other day after reading some of your posts on that website of home made tools and things.

Don't believe those elves people. They're not saying "Look what I did". They're saying "Look what Chris did".
But if they were truthful, they'd be saying "Look what that guy behind the curtain did".
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 24, 2021, 09:31:18 PM
Funny that Marv. I just put one in my cart the other day after reading some of your posts on that website of home made tools and things.

Don't believe those elves people. They're not saying "Look what I did". They're saying "Look what Chris did".
But if they were truthful, they'd be saying "Look what that guy behind the curtain did".
The guy behind the curtain is just a slightly larger elf!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 24, 2021, 09:45:29 PM
Well, the elves and I have been busy today, too rainy to head back out to the pond so we played in the shop. The new tapping tool worked great, and we whipped through the rest of the tapping on the base plates - 72 size 2-56 holes per plate. Then got them degreased and painted (Duplicolor Engine Enamel, Cast Coat Iron color). Here they are bolted to the floor plate, and the floor plate is bolted to the wood base.
(https://i.postimg.cc/VNNRyS8d/IMG-9137.jpg)
For scale, thats a 6" ruler in the lower left. Just the base parts done, and its already up to 14.6 pounds. Going to need one of those benchtop cranes you guys made for your trains!
Next parts get interesting to make - the lower level (pump level) frames, which go from the pads on the corners of the base plates up to the engine bed level, where the crankshaft will be. Need 12 of them. Each is basically straight, but they flare out at the ends, with angled pads. The frames angle in towards the ones on the opposite side, and each pair angles in towards the other pair on the same base. Going to need to make up some jigs for shaping the ends of the frames, and have to figure out how to do the flared sections at the ends.
Here is what the forest of pump frames looks like:
(https://i.postimg.cc/DwNWZmGW/Lower-Frames.jpg)
End view:
(https://i.postimg.cc/gkNXCgkH/Lower-Frames-End-View.jpg)
Side view showing the angled-in frames in each pair:
(https://i.postimg.cc/FHzdN0Y5/Lower-Frames-Side-View.jpg)
Going to take some figuring on how best to make these, and make them come out accurate as well - already envisioning some of the jigs...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on March 24, 2021, 11:16:45 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Time to "get jiggy wit it" as the pop music kids used to say.

Or as an old foreman of mine said often " ours is not to question why, ours is but to tool and die". Yes, he was a warped individual. (Especially after his tot of Navy rum - he was ex RCN and served on Corvettes in WW2)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 24, 2021, 11:19:38 PM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Time to "get jiggy wit it" as the pop music kids used to say.

Or as an old foreman of mine said often " ours is not to question why, ours is but to tool and die". Yes, he was a warped individual. (Especially after his tot of Navy rum - he was ex RCN and served on Corvettes in WW2)
Oh, HE was warped...... ooooookay.....    :lolb:    I do like the tool and die saying though.


My old coworkers used to say I didn't HAVE character, I WAS one!  Back when my mother was doing the genealogy for the family, she found sea captains, camping guides, soldiers, all that sort of thing. Most fun was the horse thief and the accused witch! 
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: gary.a.ayres on March 25, 2021, 12:08:00 AM
I hope the accused witch managed to evade those who accused her...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 25, 2021, 12:31:19 AM
I hope the accused witch managed to evade those who accused her...
Fortunately accused, not burned!




As an avid ship model builder, it was really fun to find out an ancestor was captain of the Sea Witch clipper ship. So, sorta two witch connections!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on March 25, 2021, 12:42:09 AM
Chris...

Yesterday, you say with the image ....'these are the Lower 6 pair of legs'........are the upper and lower pairs of 6 each legs of the same size & profile etc?

What material do you propose to use?   ....& fabricated construction [soldered feet] or a lot more swarf  :facepalm:

Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: gary.a.ayres on March 25, 2021, 12:44:15 AM

Fortunately accused, not burned!

 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steam guy willy on March 25, 2021, 12:46:53 AM
Hi Chris , this is going to be an amazing engine build with all these highly detailed parts to make ... but will be worth all the effort when compleated   :popcorn: :popcorn:

Willy
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steamer on March 25, 2021, 01:01:53 AM
 :o :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :cheers:

Steamer Likey!!!

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 25, 2021, 01:14:56 AM
Chris...

Yesterday, you say with the image ....'these are the Lower 6 pair of legs'........are the upper and lower pairs of 6 each legs of the same size & profile etc?

What material do you propose to use?   ....& fabricated construction [soldered feet] or a lot more swarf  :facepalm:

Derek
The center section of all are approximately 1/2" square, but the lengths and angles differ between top and bottom sets, also the end pads differ. The top pairs are also joined at the top. Bottom line, they can share some of the same bar stock source, but thats it.
All the frames will be brass, I got a good price on lengths of the square bar, most likely old stock from cheaper days. The pads at the ends will be made separate and soldered or pinned on.the flared bits at the ends, not sure yet, experimenting with that now. Might mold or hand work them in.
Making the frames from one piece each would be way too much work and material.


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 25, 2021, 01:16:53 AM
Hi Chris , this is going to be an amazing engine build with all these highly detailed parts to make ... but will be worth all the effort when compleated   :popcorn: :popcorn:

Willy
Thanks Willy, nice to have you along. Like your projects, I love to be able to see and photo the original machines, so much more inspiration.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 25, 2021, 01:17:25 AM
:o :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :cheers:

Steamer Likey!!!

Dave


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 26, 2021, 03:43:40 PM
This morning I drove over to Syracuse for my first dose of the Covid vaccine.   :cartwheel:   All the local sites in Rochester were getting booked as fast as they put up new appointment openings - the soonest I could get close to home was mid-May, but they have a huge site at the state fairgrounds where I was able to get an appointment the next day after they opened up shots to my age group, so it was well worth the drive.


On the way, was thinking about the jigs to mill the ends of the pump frames, and came up with a couple simple ones to hold the parts at the angles and position to do the compound angles on all the ends - I want to put a tenon on the ends of the main frame rails to fit into the pads at top and bottom, so I want to be able to set up the rails with all four sides at the top in turn. Since there are left/right and front/back versions of the frames, all mirror images of each other, that was a little confusing to work out.

After I got home, I fired up Fusion to draw them up, and calculate out the dimensions so that I can make them from stock sizes of bar stock. Since there are twelve of the frames rails, all with compound angles at both top and bottom, its well worth the time to make up holding jigs for the mill!

Will show pictures of the jigs and how they work once I have them made up.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: gary.a.ayres on March 26, 2021, 04:46:11 PM
Congrats on the vax Chris!  :cheers:

My good woman and I both had ours recently too.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on March 26, 2021, 05:45:30 PM
Hi Chris, congrats on getting the vaccine! good news.

In my area the authorities are still having problems getting just the 80 year old and above group vaccinated. Estimates are Sept/Oct to get to the 50-60 age group, and possibly into 2022 for under 30 group.  :hellno: Bloody disgraceful, totally mishandled, from federal level all the way to municipal level here in Ontario. :Mad: :cussing: :Mad: :cussing: :slap:

Happier subject -  :cheers: A thought on your jigs - for handling the mirror image machining, a leaf jig with a hinge in the middle, working like turning the page in a book, parts fastened to each side of the flipping "page" or leaf, can be handy for that. Used many of them for electronics assembly tooling over the years in the day job.

Cheers, the warped one, CNR6400 (about warp factor 1 today - maybe higher factor tomorrow!  :Lol:)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 26, 2021, 06:48:35 PM
Hi Chris, congrats on getting the vaccine! good news.

In my area the authorities are still having problems getting just the 80 year old and above group vaccinated. Estimates are Sept/Oct to get to the 50-60 age group, and possibly into 2022 for under 30 group.  :hellno: Bloody disgraceful, totally mishandled, from federal level all the way to municipal level here in Ontario. :Mad: :cussing: :Mad: :cussing: :slap:

Happier subject -  :cheers: A thought on your jigs - for handling the mirror image machining, a leaf jig with a hinge in the middle, working like turning the page in a book, parts fastened to each side of the flipping "page" or leaf, can be handy for that. Used many of them for electronics assembly tooling over the years in the day job.

Cheers, the warped one, CNR6400 (about warp factor 1 today - maybe higher factor tomorrow!  :Lol: )
Absolutely rediculous that it should be taking them so long!




What I came up with is something like the hinged type you describe, I think, just without the hinge. Two matched pairs, for any side and end, three will be used to get the compound angle. Pics later.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: sid pileski on March 26, 2021, 07:27:31 PM
Hey Chris-

Being from Skaneateles, basically Syracuse, I got my first one there too.
Second one will be on the 30th, next week.

I was impressed by the organization of it all at the fair grounds. Everybody was pleasant and it was well oiled.

Sid
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 26, 2021, 07:37:31 PM
Hey Chris-

Being from Skaneateles, basically Syracuse, I got my first one there too.
Second one will be on the 30th, next week.

I was impressed by the organization of it all at the fair grounds. Everybody was pleasant and it was well oiled.

Sid
Yeah, I was surprised how easy it went, very helpful people guiding through the steps. 70 stations, they were really cranking people through.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: mklotz on March 26, 2021, 08:29:22 PM
My wife and I were equally astounded at how well organized the drive through setup in the LA Forum parking lot was done when we were there.  Considering that LA county has 10+ million people (more than 41 of the 50 states), the fact that they could organize anything successfully is incredible.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Jo on March 26, 2021, 09:37:40 PM
This morning I drove over to Syracuse for my first dose of the Covid vaccine.   :cartwheel: 

Do they give you a sticker/badge for having it? My parents didn't get one with theirs and I have not heard the end of it  ::)

Jo

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 26, 2021, 09:52:12 PM
This morning I drove over to Syracuse for my first dose of the Covid vaccine.   :cartwheel: 

Do they give you a sticker/badge for having it? My parents didn't get one with theirs and I have not heard the end of it  ::)

Jo
Hey, I like those!  Maybe someone with CNC or a 3D printer can make an official MEM covid-shot badge...


No, we don't get anything like that, just a printed card that they fill out with the name/date/time/lot number/etc to prove that we got it, and let them track it back if our heads fall off or something.

So far, only side effect for me is a very slight sore spot where they did the injection, same as with any shot. Looking forward to getting the second dose in three weeks (at least they made the appointment for that with the first dose, same day of week and time so easy to remember).


The shop elves felt left out, so I offered to put them in the drill press and drill a hole in thier arm. No more complaints... 


Has Surus gotten his shot? Leg or trunk??
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: mklotz on March 26, 2021, 10:12:18 PM
Completely ANECDOTAL aftereffect data from my family.

Moderna - 2 for 2 uncomfortable after effects - nausea, headache, soreness
Pfizer - 3 for 3 nothing important - wife had mild discomfort around injection site

Paperwork...

In addition to the cards issued at the inoculation sites, we received official cards in the mail.  I scanned them and we carry the scans in our wallets in the fond hope that some day they may gain us admission to a real sit-down indoor restaurant.

Outdoor dining is legal here and yesterday we ate sushi and tempura on the patio of a local restaurant overlooking the Pacific and a fine view of Catalina. (Kalifornia may be a liberal hell, but the weather and landscape are worth it.)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 26, 2021, 11:26:56 PM
Completely ANECDOTAL aftereffect data from my family.

Moderna - 2 for 2 uncomfortable after effects - nausea, headache, soreness
Pfizer - 3 for 3 nothing important - wife had mild discomfort around injection site

Paperwork...

In addition to the cards issued at the inoculation sites, we received official cards in the mail.  I scanned them and we carry the scans in our wallets in the fond hope that some day they may gain us admission to a real sit-down indoor restaurant.

Outdoor dining is legal here and yesterday we ate sushi and tempura on the patio of a local restaurant overlooking the Pacific and a fine view of Catalina. (Kalifornia may be a liberal hell, but the weather and landscape are worth it.)
I totally agree with all that, except I like my fish battered and fried!   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 26, 2021, 11:29:40 PM
Did a little more playing around with the jig design, and realized that what I had drawn was easy to make, would have been a pain in the swarf to use since several independant parts are clumsy to arrange in the mill vise.   :slap:

Had another brain-storm (hopefully not another brain-fart), and came up with a much simpler approach using clamping cradles on a base plate. So, assuming I dont realize something bad with that, will build that this weekend.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steamboatmodel on March 26, 2021, 11:47:27 PM
My wife being Medical Personal and in contact with patients all the time got her first shot on Friday. My family Doctors clinic has started giving 70+ appointments, they had two days of appointments both filled in two minutes.
Gerald.   
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: gary.a.ayres on March 27, 2021, 12:43:36 AM

The shop elves felt left out, so I offered to put them in the drill press and drill a hole in thier arm. No more complaints... 


If they get too nervous about that you could always offer to clamp them to the lathe faceplate and administer the dose via a drill in the tailstock. They'd be so dizzy they wouldn't notice the jab.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 27, 2021, 12:53:48 AM

The shop elves felt left out, so I offered to put them in the drill press and drill a hole in thier arm. No more complaints... 


If they get too nervous about that you could always offer to clamp them to the lathe faceplate and administer the dose via a drill in the tailstock. They'd be so dizzy they wouldn't notice the jab.


 :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on March 27, 2021, 11:29:57 AM
Or grab a wire-type file cleaning card, and tell them the vaccine's on it, drop your trousers and have a seat...... :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Jo on March 27, 2021, 01:44:44 PM
Has Surus gotten his shot? Leg or trunk??

He's too young they are only doing old fogies and people with underlying health conditions so far  ::)

Jo
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 27, 2021, 11:18:16 PM
Okay, so, back on the pumping engine lower frames.  I made up Mk-2 of the holding jig, the first version not making past the eyeball-after-design phase.  This version uses a single base plate, drilled with a pattern of holes determined in the CAD application to give the angles I need to give the frame rails the different direction lean in towards the center. Here is what I came up with to mill the angles on the upper and lower ends, plus mill the tenons at each end that will go through the pads to be added to the ends.

The bottom of the plate has two pairs of holes at either end to hold clamping cradles that will hold the frames at 10.23 degrees from the centerline. The areas around the holes on the bottom was recessed to let the screw heads sit in from the bottom of the plate so it will lay flat in the vise.

(https://i.postimg.cc/3ww3msy0/IMG-9138.jpg)
Here is a side view, showing the cradles clamped around the rail. The lower halves of the cradles are threaded, so they are held tight to the plate by the screws. The top halves of the cradles clamp down using nuts on each screw. Also, note the little piece of 1/16" thick stock under the frame rail/on top of the lower cradle at the right hand end of the photo. This lifts that end to give it the desired 1.7 degrees of lean in that direction. Depending on which end of which rail I am working on, this shim gets put on the cradle at one end of the rail or the other. In combination with putting the cradles in one pair of holes or the other, all the combinations needed for compound angles on the rails/tenons can be done.
(https://i.postimg.cc/YCRp4rSw/IMG-9139.jpg)
The two vertical screws are there to be position stops when making the tenons. When milling the angle on the end of the rails, those screws will be removed.

So, here is the jig clamped down in the mill vise in the position used to cut the angle on the end as well as the tenon cuts on the top/bottom of the rail.
(https://i.postimg.cc/VkmfLrmR/IMG-9140.jpg)
To cut the tenon sides, and get a square corner where the tenon meets the main frame rail, the jig can be tipped up on either side. The shiny area on either side of the main plate is where I milled a shallow recess in the top of the plate, which gives a lip for the plate to sit on top of the vise jaws, aligning it level. I could not make the plate wide enough to reach the bottom of the vise without making it so wide it would not fit in the vise when down flat.
(https://i.postimg.cc/s20scTS6/IMG-9141.jpg)
This looks like it will work out. Yes, a lot of work to make the jig, but considering that I need to cut angles and tenons on all four sides of both ends of 12 frame rails, it is well worth it in time and accuracy gained.

But, not starting on the rails tonight - want to start fresh on that in a morning!  First I need to rough cut all the rails to length from the longer bar stock, and mark all the ends for which combination of angles it needs at either end. Without doing that, its pretty guaranteed to mix up the direction of cuts with that many to do!

Again, here is the forest of frames that is being made, each set of four needing to match the others, and each rail in each set leaning in towards the center in both directions. Should be either fun or totally maddening to keep everything organized!!

(https://i.postimg.cc/DwNWZmGW/Lower-Frames.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on March 27, 2021, 11:24:20 PM
The jig setup looks great Chris, time well spent I think, and the frames will be that much better, I think, than with no jig.  :cheers:

 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

(impulse engines only today- 0 warp factor :Lol:- enjoyed some time in my shop today, first in a while. :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 28, 2021, 12:22:25 AM
The jig setup looks great Chris, time well spent I think, and the frames will be that much better, I think, than with no jig.  :cheers:

 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

(impulse engines only today- 0 warp factor :Lol: - enjoyed some time in my shop today, first in a while. :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: )
Glad you are up to shop time again!   :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 28, 2021, 03:51:53 PM
Started in milling the compound angles on the ends of the pump frame rails this morning. All the rails are marked on two faces at each end for which direction the angles go, to help ensure that they go into the jig in the proper orientation.
(https://i.postimg.cc/5N0G58by/IMG-9143.jpg)
It will take a while to run through all of them, the first ends will go a bit quicker, the second ends slower since the overall length has to be measured and the parts taken to dimension.  After the ends all get angled, then will start on the tenon cutting...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on March 28, 2021, 05:23:41 PM
Thanks Chris! Your first cuts on the frames look great.  :cheers:   :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: gary.a.ayres on March 28, 2021, 06:00:20 PM
Great solution to the job of cutting all those angles.

 :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 28, 2021, 07:01:23 PM
Thanks guys! As expected, cutting the compound angle on the first end of every piece went pretty quick, and the second ends are goin slower since I have to stop and measure the length on each one, sneaking up on the finished dimension. So far the jig is working quite well.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on March 28, 2021, 08:17:23 PM
Just a thought Chris - Could you glue a block onto the base of the jig temporarily to register against the first end cut of each frame? If you cut the first frame against the block and sneak up on the length dimension for the first one, and don't move the table afterward, the other frames fitted in the jig and pushed up to the block and cut at same settings will be same length. (all of them right, or all of them wrong - don't ask me how I know that :Lol:)

You probably need to break the block's glue joint and move it for the opposite hand frames, but it could save some moves / measurement. Hope it helps. Back to my shop now! (impulse engine only today, 0 warp factor) :cheers:

PS how are the shop elves coping with the wheelbarrows of brass swarf?  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 28, 2021, 09:05:30 PM
Just a thought Chris - Could you glue a block onto the base of the jig temporarily to register against the first end cut of each frame? If you cut the first frame against the block and sneak up on the length dimension for the first one, and don't move the table afterward, the other frames fitted in the jig and pushed up to the block and cut at same settings will be same length. (all of them right, or all of them wrong - don't ask me how I know that :Lol: )

You probably need to break the block's glue joint and move it for the opposite hand frames, but it could save some moves / measurement. Hope it helps. Back to my shop now! (impulse engine only today, 0 warp factor) :cheers:

PS how are the shop elves coping with the wheelbarrows of brass swarf?  :Lol:
There is a screw for the rails to register against for the tenon cuts. I removed that for the overall-length cuts since the end mill has to cover that whole face. The rails are too long to put a screw or block at the other end, and that is how I am sliding in the blanks anyway. Since the last post I have finished cutting them all to length, just needed to make an initial cut on the second end, stop and measure, and see how much farther to advance the cut to finish.

The elves are dealing with it fine so far, since it is just accumulating in the seperator next to the shop vac! Its later on when they have to backpack it all outside that the air turns blue...!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 28, 2021, 09:41:19 PM
After finishing up the trimming to overall length, with the compound angles on both ends of the rails,
(https://i.postimg.cc/3w04SVSk/IMG-9144.jpg)
I've started in on the tenon cuts. For these, there is a screw at the near end to act as a stop when putting in the rail, which will both make it easy to get the length of the cut horizontally repeatable, but it also is important for getting the depth vertically the same. Since the rails are at an angle in both directions, if one rail goes farther out from the cradle than another, it would get a different vertical amount of cutting. This way, its possible to get a repeatable placement for all four cuts on each end of the rails.
(https://i.postimg.cc/76vCp9dm/IMG-9146.jpg)
I'll go through the first cut for each rail, then set up for the second cut. Even though there are four rails in each set, there are actually only two combinations of the angles in each set, the other two can be cut the same then flipped end for end - possible since the pads at top and bottom will be both parallel and the same thickness.

Good work to send the shop elves off to the movies for, less distractions for me that way!   :Lol:   Have to see if there is a marathon Santa movie showing on... They love to heckle the workshop scenes!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on March 28, 2021, 10:27:08 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Flyboy Jim on March 29, 2021, 02:51:25 AM
Looking Good Chris.

Once you master tenons, you can then start cutting dovetails in brass.  :lolb:

Jim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 29, 2021, 03:09:06 AM
Looking Good Chris.

Once you master tenons, you can then start cutting dovetails in brass.  :lolb:

Jim


I've done sliding dovetails in Cherry and Mahogany. The chisels are tough to get through brass though!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 29, 2021, 05:39:37 PM
Continued on with milling the sides of the tenons....
(https://i.postimg.cc/CKnk2yW9/IMG-9148.jpg)
till both sides were done at each end of all the rails
(https://i.postimg.cc/Y9cYKn70/IMG-9149.jpg)
Now have set the jig vertically to start on the other sides, same basic setup and moves, half have a shim under the right end, rest have a shim under the left end, and half will be done with the jig in this position, rest with the jig flipped over to other angle.
(https://i.postimg.cc/KznLZPcN/IMG-9150.jpg)
So far so good, the third side has lined up with the ends of the other two...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 29, 2021, 09:59:50 PM
A few more shop sessions this afternoon, got the rest of the tenons cut on the lower frame rails:
(https://i.postimg.cc/BvfxPSYN/IMG-9151.jpg)
Here is the pile of rails, ready to make the pads for the top/bottom of each that let them bolt to the bases and the engine bases up above:
(https://i.postimg.cc/fb7YxG1s/IMG-9152.jpg)
They still need a little thickness trimming, the dimension in one direction is just under 1/2".  I did take a bar of 3/8" x 5/8" stock and cut it into segments for the pads - the cut depth stop on the bandsaw comes in handy for these kinds of cuts.

Um, the shop elves found the stack of pad blanks, and think that they have found my stash of gold bars. Don't have the heart to tell them its just brass, will wait till tomorrow - let them celebrate tonight!  They'll probably put on the tape of Kelly's Heroes and act out the scenes with them....

(https://i.postimg.cc/NMgmbNwH/IMG-9153.jpg)
The pads will get rectangular mortise holes milled in them to take the tenons on the rails. Playing with the idea of making a little adapter plate for the broach, to do the square inside corners. Either that or file the drilled holes to square off the corners.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on March 29, 2021, 10:11:32 PM
That's a lot of frame pieces there, Chris!  And you get to do 2x the number of those end caps   :popcorn:

Pretty fun to watch you work :)

And hey - I just read my latest Live Steam mag (yeah, I'm a few weeks behind!) and really enjoyed your first Shop Elf Corner installment on nickel plating.   Great work on that too. Looking forward to reading more instalments of the shop elf corner :ThumbsUp: :)

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 29, 2021, 10:15:15 PM
That's a lot of frame pieces there, Chris!  And you get to do 2x the number of those end caps   :popcorn:

Pretty fun to watch you work :)

And hey - I just read my latest Live Steam mag (yeah, I'm a few weeks behind!) and really enjoyed your first Shop Elf Corner installment on nickel plating.   Great work on that too. Looking forward to reading more instalments of the shop elf corner :ThumbsUp: :)

Kim
Thanks Kim!  Later on in the build are similar frames up between the engine bed and the cylinders, at least those are only angled in one direction, but they have all the crossheads and valve rod attachment points built into them too.

Glad you liked the article, next issue should have one on taper locks, after that will be some intermittant articles/plans on the Mann truck build. Towards the end of the year the big article on the Marion steam shovel should start....   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on March 29, 2021, 10:36:25 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

The solid gold brass frame parts are looking great!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 29, 2021, 11:57:15 PM
Well, I was not expecting that to work out so easy!  I was looking ahead a little to how I was going to make the mortises in the pads to take the rectangular tenons from the frame rails. Normally, when making a couple like that, I would just drill/mill the outline and file the corners square. But, in this case, there are 24 pads to make, four corners per, then do it again for the upper frames.... Lots of filing.


Last year I had picked up an arbor press and a small broaching set for the gears on the Mann truck. Yesterday had the idea of using the broaching cutter to do the squared corners, and figured that I would have to make a special guide to start in a narrow slot rather than the usual round hole.  This evening, to test that out, I grabbed a scrap bit of brass and drew the outline of the mortise needed, and milled a slot at either end with a 1/8" end mill.

Upon testing that with the 1/8" wide broach, it turned out that the depth of the broach worked out perfectly, I could run it through once with the slot as cut, then add the wedge to finish it off, and both wedges to do the other end of the slot. Instant (nearly) two squared corners! At most would take slight filing to get a good fit on the tenon.

(https://i.postimg.cc/cHQQ0rQf/IMG-9154.jpg)
In the photo, the slot on the left is as- milled, the one on the right is after broaching. All I'd need to do then is to make a couple more passes to connect the slots and leave the rectangle. Hmmmm!  This will work out perfect for making the mortises in the pads!
 :pinkelephant:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: gary.a.ayres on March 30, 2021, 12:03:08 AM
All that glitters...

At least it's Elves that you have in your shop. They appreciate fine craftsmanship, but aren't highly motivated by gold for its own sake.

Imagine you had Dwarves, and how peeved they would be when they realised it was just brass! Different story entirely. Doesn't bear thinking about.

This is golden though. Will be great to see it coming together...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 30, 2021, 12:05:53 AM
All that glitters...

This is golden though. Will be great to see it coming together...
I'll take dumb luck any day. Many years ago I named my first boat (a small Whitehall row/sailboat)  Dumb Luck. 
Goes well with the phrase, Take It Easy, But Take It!
 :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: gary.a.ayres on March 30, 2021, 12:08:42 AM
Aha... your reply crossed with my modification.

Dumb Luck is good. But is it luck, or perhaps something else...?
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 30, 2021, 09:04:17 PM
Today got a start on the lower frame end pads, making them as mentioned in yesterdays post, milling the two slots at the ends of the mortise opening, and will square the ends of the slots with the broach.
(https://i.postimg.cc/1tB04Sc8/IMG-9155.jpg)
After a few sessions of milling (time out for lunch, some reading out on the front porch once it warmed up enough after the snow yesterday), got the pile of pads milled, ready for the broach.
(https://i.postimg.cc/26rFzyvp/IMG-9156.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: gary.a.ayres on March 30, 2021, 09:44:36 PM
Wow - it just keeps on coming!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 30, 2021, 11:40:21 PM
That's a lot of frame pieces there, Chris!  And you get to do 2x the number of those end caps   :popcorn:

Pretty fun to watch you work :)

And hey - I just read my latest Live Steam mag (yeah, I'm a few weeks behind!) and really enjoyed your first Shop Elf Corner installment on nickel plating.   Great work on that too. Looking forward to reading more instalments of the shop elf corner :ThumbsUp: :)

Kim
Probably good that you are running a little behind on reading your Live Steam issues, was talking with the editor and he mentioned that the next issue will be out slightly late, the design department got backed up and are running behind a little (they do a number of different magazines). No problems, just a little behind.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on March 31, 2021, 05:40:44 AM
Good to know!  Now I have an excuse for my slow uptake on my periodicals! :)
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 31, 2021, 04:43:11 PM
This morning I finished broaching all the holes, so the inside corners are all square. Then started milling out the remaining chunk in the middle of the mortises. The tenons project out square to the base, at a compound angle to the rails, so the mortises are vertical, no compound angles to worry about with them.

(https://i.postimg.cc/vBf0LJQt/IMG-9158.jpg)
The pads are all the same, top and bottom too, they just get flipped over for the different rail ends. Here are the first four pads with the mortises cut and fitted to the rails (just a couple swipes of the file needed in a couple places).
(https://i.postimg.cc/T1cQBn5y/IMG-9163.jpg)
As you can see at the bottom of the photo, the tenons dont come all the way through the pads, yet. The pads will be cut thinner and narrower to final dimension, and they also get their top edges chamdfered, and holes drilled in the corners for the mounting screws. To fasten them all together, I am thinking that the joints will get some loctite and be cross pinned. Some epoxy putty will be used to form fillets in the inside corners to match the castings.
Here are the first two rails set in place on the base plates to give an idea of where its all going. There are a couple of the pads on the lower ones to keep them from tiping over, they almost balance upright but not quite!
(https://i.postimg.cc/d3F4W53P/IMG-9160.jpg)
Pads for two rails down, 10 more sets to go!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on March 31, 2021, 05:07:09 PM
Looks like the engine designer has a leg to stand on, now!   :Lol:  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 31, 2021, 05:09:33 PM
Looks like the engine designer has a leg to stand on, now!   :Lol: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
The elves have a pair of really tall crutches too!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: gary.a.ayres on March 31, 2021, 05:38:27 PM
An engine is beginning to suggest itself...

 :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: scc on March 31, 2021, 09:04:57 PM
 :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :cheers:              Terry
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on March 31, 2021, 09:21:24 PM
Very neat, as always, Chris!

So, all this angled mortise & tenon joinery - is this how it was done in the original?  Or is this just how you're fabricating something that was cast as a single piece?

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 31, 2021, 09:27:25 PM
Very neat, as always, Chris!

So, all this angled mortise & tenon joinery - is this how it was done in the original?  Or is this just how you're fabricating something that was cast as a single piece?

Kim
On the original, the rails were hollow, and cast as one piece with the pads/tapers at the ends. Massive castings, just making and positioning the cores must have been a lot of work. Same with the base plates, those were one piece castings, according to the plans. Making the rails from one piece with the pads would have needed much larger bar stock, much wider and thicker, to get the pads and the angles shaped in - piecing it up for the model is much more practical for me.  The plans are a lot of fun to look through, they have notes on common patterns that made parts for different machines, where they just moved certain add-on bits of the mold.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on March 31, 2021, 09:32:32 PM
Very neat, as always, Chris!

So, all this angled mortise & tenon joinery - is this how it was done in the original?  Or is this just how you're fabricating something that was cast as a single piece?

Kim
On the original, the rails were hollow, and cast as one piece with the pads/tapers at the ends. Massive castings, just making and positioning the cores must have been a lot of work. Same with the base plates, those were one piece castings, according to the plans. Making the rails from one piece with the pads would have needed much larger bar stock, much wider and thicker, to get the pads and the angles shaped in - piecing it up for the model is much more practical for me.  The plans are a lot of fun to look through, they have notes on common patterns that made parts for different machines, where they just moved certain add-on bits of the mold.


OK, that's kinda what I thought, but then I started getting lost in the pretty joinery and just had to ask.  Doesn't take anything away from the cool square-cornered mortises you're doing - that is super cool, as is the angled Tenon jig.    :ThumbsUp:

The plans must be fascinating!  It is so great that you were able to get a set of the original plans! That must have been quite the thrill to get those!
Kim

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 31, 2021, 09:34:50 PM
Very neat, as always, Chris!

So, all this angled mortise & tenon joinery - is this how it was done in the original?  Or is this just how you're fabricating something that was cast as a single piece?

Kim
On the original, the rails were hollow, and cast as one piece with the pads/tapers at the ends. Massive castings, just making and positioning the cores must have been a lot of work. Same with the base plates, those were one piece castings, according to the plans. Making the rails from one piece with the pads would have needed much larger bar stock, much wider and thicker, to get the pads and the angles shaped in - piecing it up for the model is much more practical for me.  The plans are a lot of fun to look through, they have notes on common patterns that made parts for different machines, where they just moved certain add-on bits of the mold.


OK, that's kinda what I thought, but then I started getting lost in the pretty joinery and just had to ask.  Doesn't take anything away from the cool square-cornered mortises you're doing - that is super cool, as is the angled Tenon jig.    :ThumbsUp:

The plans must be fascinating!  It is so great that you were able to get a set of the original plans! That must have been quite the thrill to get those!
Kim
I was stunned that he had found them in the building, and again that he let me have a copy of the scans - that is a very rare thing to get hold of. After the model is done, and assuming they get back to doing the annual tours, I'll have to take it over there for demos at the tour days, got to repay the favor!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on March 31, 2021, 10:52:35 PM
For casting the original full size hollow frame cores, I would expect that many chaplets would be needed along each core to support them, both under the core and at the sides. The moulders probably used several individual cores to be able to make shorter ones, easier to lift and less prone to breakage. (and they would likely put Shaky the jittery handed moulder on pattern cleaning or counting flasks, the day they were moulding frames.)  :Lol:

Chaplets are still available in many shapes and sizes. Link to one local firm carrying them is below. You can often see the residual imprint of one face of the chaplet where it didn't melt right into the casting if you look at big or long castings on old engines.

http://smelko.com/?page_id=395

 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 31, 2021, 10:58:34 PM
For casting the original full size hollow frame cores, I would expect that many chaplets would be needed along each core to support them, both under the core and at the sides. The moulders probably used several individual cores to be able to make shorter ones, easier to lift and less prone to breakage. (and they would likely put Shaky the jittery handed moulder on pattern cleaning or counting flasks, the day they were moulding frames.)  :Lol:

Chaplets are still available in many shapes and sizes. Link to one local firm carrying them is below. You can often see the residual imprint of one face of the chaplet where it didn't melt right into the casting if you look at big or long castings on old engines.

http://smelko.com/?page_id=395 (http://smelko.com/?page_id=395)

 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
What is a chaplet and how is it used? Never heard that term before. Chiclet, yes, Chaplet, no.   :noidea:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steamer on March 31, 2021, 10:59:53 PM
This is going to be an epic build!
 :popcorn:
Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on March 31, 2021, 11:06:59 PM
This is going to be an epic build!
 :popcorn:
Dave
Thanks Dave! 


For some of the smaller detail bits, I may be adding 3D printed parts - have one of the new Prusa Mk3 Original printers coming in a few days, seems like the technology, while still evolving, has gotten stable enough for me to dip my toe in that end of the pool. Handy for this kind of model, and will let me make some of the parts for the RC boats that have required making fiberglass/silicone molds for in the past. The vast majority of this engine will still be machined metal parts though!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Don1966 on April 01, 2021, 03:19:52 AM
Yep doing it proud Dog...... :Love:



 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on April 01, 2021, 03:33:11 AM
For casting the original full size hollow frame cores, I would expect that many chaplets would be needed along each core to support them, both under the core and at the sides. The moulders probably used several individual cores to be able to make shorter ones, easier to lift and less prone to breakage. (and they would likely put Shaky the jittery handed moulder on pattern cleaning or counting flasks, the day they were moulding frames.)  :Lol:

Chaplets are still available in many shapes and sizes. Link to one local firm carrying them is below. You can often see the residual imprint of one face of the chaplet where it didn't melt right into the casting if you look at big or long castings on old engines.

http://smelko.com/?page_id=395 (http://smelko.com/?page_id=395)

 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
What is a chaplet and how is it used? Never heard that term before. Chiclet, yes, Chaplet, no.   :noidea:

Hi Chris, Chaplets work by holding cores in sand moulds up where a core is too long and thin to just be supported at the ends, or too heavy for support at just one end. If you visualize the sand mould for the engine frame column, it would be a long rectangular trough in the sand. The core for the hollow centre would need to be supported along its' length in this trough. If there were raised areas of sand forming openings along the frame, the raised areas could support the core. But if no openings were possible for whatever strength or functional reasons, the core would have to be supported by chaplets. Think of a bunch of chaplets as doing the same job as a bunch of machinist jacks would if placed between the core and the mould face, the jacks would support the core leaving a wall gap for the iron. The iron flows in around the chaplets and melts them partly, and the chaplets become embedded permanently in the casting. After the iron solidifies the sand core is broken out of the centre of the frame casting.

Round faced chaplets as shown in the link in my original post mentioning chaplets could make excellent bar stools for shop elves though, so unless you really need them for a casting project , best to not have any on hand or the shop elves will take a seat and crack open some Elfensteiner stubbies......... :atcomputer: :shrug:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 01, 2021, 04:29:45 AM
Thanks for the explanation CNR, that makes sense now. I suppose they could make them out of whatever material they are casting to blend in better too. Neat solution!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 01, 2021, 08:04:48 PM
Got the mortises cut in all the end pads:
(https://i.postimg.cc/pLHhYnLg/IMG-9164.jpg)
so the next step is to finish shaping the pads. Starting with the length - am using the mortise as a reference point for the outer size, since its important for the rail to be the right distance in from the base and top platform. Starting with one end, using a 1/4" tool bit blank on top of the vise to index from.

(https://i.postimg.cc/mgycd2ch/IMG-9165.jpg)
This way I could set the cutter height once, and cycle through all the parts. After that end is done for all the pads, will reset for the other three sides in turn. The pads also will get chamfered on the top edge, drilled for the mounting bolts, and the rails need to be thinned slightly in one dimension (with stress relief done first), and the mounting holes for the intermediate platform drilled through. So, lots to do on these lower frames still!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on April 01, 2021, 08:37:04 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on April 01, 2021, 11:15:37 PM
Sounds like a very repeatable process!  Which is good, because you'll have to repeat it a LOT of time!  :insane:
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 02, 2021, 06:30:43 PM
Sounds like a very repeatable process!  Which is good, because you'll have to repeat it a LOT of time!  :insane:
Kim
Jigs are well worth it for mass produced parts!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 02, 2021, 06:37:03 PM
Today saw the pads taken down to thickness, then set up for drilling the holes in the corners. These holes have to match the holes in the base plates, and be aligned such that the rails come out in the right place. So, bunch of time with the plans and 3D model figuring out the offsets and double checking them, then made a little block that was screwed and loctited to the bottom of the drill guide that I made to drill the base plate holes. Here it is, with one of the pads set over it:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Kj0SHZp2/IMG-9167.jpg)
And flipped over to drill through the guide holes:

(https://i.postimg.cc/WzNc8Dn8/IMG-9166.jpg)
This will take care of the holes in the bottom pads - the top pads have a different pattern, so I need to make a drill guide plate for them too.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Don1966 on April 02, 2021, 09:58:21 PM
 :ThumbsUp:


‘ :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 03, 2021, 01:14:52 AM
:ThumbsUp:


‘ :cheers:
Don


Cheers Don!  These parts are getting lots of location marks and numbers to keep them all oriented right.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Roger B on April 04, 2021, 11:31:53 AM
Lots of interesting Fabrication  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp:  :wine1:  :wine1:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 04, 2021, 05:50:16 PM
Back in the shop this morning, more drilling of the mount holes in the bottom frame pads. Before moving on to the top pad holes, I bolted a set of rails to the base plates for a quick double-check set of measurements (all good so far)
(https://i.postimg.cc/3wb2fLkk/IMG-9168.jpg)
So, started in drilling the holes in the top pads too. After that I need to pause and figure out the order of doing things for finishing the shaping on the pads and getting them permenantly attached to the rails.

The other new toy, I mean shop tool, that arrived a few days ago is my new 3D printer (Prusa Original Mk3+) . Got it assembled the last couple of days, and tested out with their sample prints. All good once I got the two fan plugs in the right places (the self-test caught that fortunately). Then played around with the slicing software to figure out how to get obkects from Fusion over to be printed. I started out with one of the big water intake pipe elbows (its about 60 degrees of turn) since it has overhangs and such, which take extra supports to print. Here is the print underway:
(https://i.postimg.cc/3x1Xmr7C/IMG-9169.jpg)
and finished, ready to remove from the printer and snap off the scaffolding that it uses to hold the overhang (since it cant start the bottom of that flange in mid-air). That pipe is about two inches tall.

(https://i.postimg.cc/7LLgVvZv/IMG-9173.jpg)
Came out pretty good, a little light sanding/filling to get rid of the slight texture on the curved surface. I'm thinking of using printed parts for things like this, that would be really tough to machine without CNC - some of the pipes are round, some oval, as well as for some of the smaller detail parts. Main use will be with the RC model submarines.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Roger B on April 04, 2021, 05:55:01 PM
I am maybe a Luddite about the new technologies (or maybe I really just don't have the time ATM) but that to me is impressive  :praise2:  :praise2:  :wine1:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 04, 2021, 06:06:17 PM
I am maybe a Luddite about the new technologies (or maybe I really just don't have the time ATM) but that to me is impressive  :praise2: :praise2: :wine1:
Me too in some ways. For decades I worked on computers all day, and didn't want one in the house so I could get away from the keyboard!  The printers have come a long way, much better out of the box, and for the current projects I thought I would try one.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: 90LX_Notch on April 04, 2021, 06:29:36 PM
I’ve been following along in the shadows Chris.  Now that I have upgraded my technology I can come out into the light and post.  Excellent work as usual. 

-Bob
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 04, 2021, 07:12:07 PM
I’ve been following along in the shadows Chris.  Now that I have upgraded my technology I can come out into the light and post.  Excellent work as usual. 

-Bob
Thanks Bob, great to have you along for the ride. Hope you brought snacks, its going to be a long trip!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Admiral_dk on April 04, 2021, 09:23:44 PM
Congratulations on your new tool  :ThumbsUp:

I got a similar one - or more correct - I had the same model until they were able to ship the MMU (enables me to use five different plastics / colours etc.) on the same print. I had a few mishaps with mine - one turned out to be a screw that wasn't torqued hard enough, so it came loose and the printing head as well a result  :-[
This was discovered during the upgrade -> so it worked nicely for some time again (except with flexibles  >:( ) until it couldn't be persuaded to load the filaments ....  :Mad:   :cussing:
I can for that reason highly recommend that you add an SMD LED on the Filament sensor on top off the printing head, that shows if the sensor thinks that the Filament is loaded - this has shown me a few times that the sensor needs to be adjusted => everything works very nicely again  :)
There is a nice little article on how to do so on the Prusa site.

Still following your big build  :popcorn:    :cheers:

Per
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 04, 2021, 09:36:45 PM
Congratulations on your new tool  :ThumbsUp:

I got a similar one - or more correct - I had the same model until they were able to ship the MMU (enables me to use five different plastics / colours etc.) on the same print. I had a few mishaps with mine - one turned out to be a screw that wasn't torqued hard enough, so it came loose and the printing head as well a result  :-[
This was discovered during the upgrade -> so it worked nicely for some time again (except with flexibles  >:( ) until it couldn't be persuaded to load the filaments ....  :Mad:   :cussing:
I can for that reason highly recommend that you add an SMD LED on the Filament sensor on top off the printing head, that shows if the sensor thinks that the Filament is loaded - this has shown me a few times that the sensor needs to be adjusted => everything works very nicely again  :)
There is a nice little article on how to do so on the Prusa site.

Still following your big build  :popcorn:    :cheers:

Per
I think they changed the loading in that newest upgrade (which mine has from factory), so that it uses the led/sensor in the filament path already. Or are you talking about an external indicator? I couldnt find the article you mentioned, can you post the link? They have a LOT of articles!When you change colors, I assume it stops the print and prompts you for the new color? I have not gotten anywhere near that level yet!
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 04, 2021, 09:40:34 PM
Oh, and I figured out what the whirring sounds I heard late last night were from - the shop elves must have been reading the manual, and learned how to print out a new pet from the sample prints they include files for....
(https://i.postimg.cc/15w2xd1V/IMG-9174.jpg)
Gonna have to lock up THAT power cord too...   :facepalm2:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Admiral_dk on April 04, 2021, 10:17:56 PM
Hi Chris

No it changes between five different Filaments automatically - se the rightmost here :
https://www.prusa3d.com/ (https://www.prusa3d.com/)
It does mean that it creates a 'Waste Tower' when it changes filament .... in order to purge the printing head.

I have just discovered that I can't even find my own posts on the Prusa user forum now  :shrug:
But I was also reminded that the Filament sensor isn't the same if you got the MMU or not ....
The LED I'm talking about is not really external, as you have to drill a 2mm. hole in the top lid over the printing head, to see it, but it, + a resistor or two, is put on top of the existing PCB, so you get a visible indication of the state that the MCU is reading (but doesn't show - not even LIVE if you ask it to do so in the LCD).
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 04, 2021, 10:28:57 PM
Hi Chris

No it changes between five different Filaments automatically - se the rightmost here :
https://www.prusa3d.com/ (https://www.prusa3d.com/)
It does mean that it creates a 'Waste Tower' when it changes filament .... in order to purge the printing head.

I have just discovered that I can't even find my own posts on the Prusa user forum now  :shrug:
But I was also reminded that the Filament sensor isn't the same if you got the MMU or not ....
The LED I'm talking about is not really external, as you have to drill a 2mm. hole in the top lid over the printing head, to see it, but it, + a resistor or two, is put on top of the existing PCB, so you get a visible indication of the state that the MCU is reading (but doesn't show - not even LIVE if you ask it to do so in the LCD).
Wow - thats quite a mechanism to feed the different colors like that!


With just printing one color at a time, and I'll mainly be using just gray/silver and painting, having the LED is not that important, since the first thing it does at the start is lay down a stripe to ensure the head is purged of old material and I will see if that does not work. So far I am pretty happy with the unit, the instruction manual for assembly was the best I've ever seen, only a couple places where it needed a clearer picture or some such. The instructions for the slicer could use a little more work to explain the options and why you would use them, and some more basic walkthroughs, but thats a common issue with any complex device.

For now, I've been printing off some of the pipe elbows/y's, start one up and go play in the shop with the proper fun tools!   :LittleDevil:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 04, 2021, 10:45:31 PM
I was going through my pictures of the pump station to figure out what went through a particular bolt hole in one of the parts, and noticed this one - a couple of the wrenches sitting on the platform by the engine beds. The bigger one has a lifting eye on it, they must need to suspend it to lift the thing up to the bolts!

(https://i.postimg.cc/ZqxJTRk3/DSC-7619.jpg)

Fun what is lurking in the photos that were not noticed at the time!

Oh, and above the wrench, you can see some writing on the vertical frame rail - that is the casting part number, matches up with the numbers on the blueprints.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on April 05, 2021, 01:03:00 AM
The larger item [open ended spanner] by it's length would be termed as a Flogging Spanner, however these are usually a form of a Ring Spanner...[I suspect the hole in the short shank of the large open ender was for mounting the spanner on a Shadow Tool Board]

Very dangerous placing a reasonably wide jawed open ended spanner on a nut & having a second person use the 28lb hammer to flog the nut up......but that is what happened  :shrug:

In this enlightened day and age, we use sockets with hydraulic torque multipliers to accurate and safely tension fastners, or even better hydraulic bolt stretching devices so the need for impact is not needed......just stretch, rotate the nut until engaged on the flat surface & release the induced tension [stretch] in the bolt & all done  :ThumbsUp:     

The spanner painted red , we called a Bent Banana or S handled spanner  ...used of course for inverting and gaining double the engagement orientations....

Oh the joys of such work  :old: ....yes, back then...we had a Fitters Mate [assistant] to carry all of the heavy tools..sometimes on a wheel barrow or trolley....such a large spanner must never be left on the machine after work..[lazy, bad house keeping] could also have been a safety issue .....with much  :Director: from the Engineer or Foreman for allowing it to happen  :cussing:

Derek

PS...for clarification, the other Red Spanner in industry was the oxy-acetelyene
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 05, 2021, 07:57:59 PM
Derek - I'm sure the guys who left the spanners there are long gone, so we'll have to search for a new foreman to yell at them!   :Lol:
I remember a guy down the hall in one of the buildings I worked in that had a huge open end wrench hanging on his office wall (good thing he had a solid back wall in the office) that must have been three feet long, four or five inch opening. Not sure if it was his, or if he just couldn't lift it to get rid of it!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 05, 2021, 08:08:23 PM
Some more progress on the pump level frames. I was thinking about the order of the next steps, and decided to make the plates that connect each pair up at the top to make sure things are lining up correctly.  These plates hold the lower rails, and on top of them there will be the big engine bed castings that connect the pairs and hold the upper engine leve frames that go up to the cylinders. As with the pump base plates, I made up the blanks (6 of them) and drilled one, then used it as a drill guide for the others. The corner holes were all tapped for the bolts from the frame rail end pads.
(https://i.postimg.cc/wBLm5SXX/IMG-9175.jpg)
Still some more tapping to do, but I bolted up one set to see how it all fits. Had one pad where the drill must have angled that needed to be opened up, rest went well. There is a ruler sitting on top, used that to judge the alignment on the top and sides of the plates.
(https://i.postimg.cc/W3VJ5X8Q/IMG-9176.jpg)
I'll get the other plates tapped, then I think the order will be to loctite the tenons on the rails into the mortises on the pads while using the assembly to hold things in alignment. Then, can unbolt the pads top and bottom, and use the milling jig to hold the rails/pads to drill for some cross pins and put the angles on the pads - they get tapered in at the top sort of like the base plates did. With the tapers, holding the pads by themselves will be tricky so waiting till they are attached to the rails will give a place to clamp them. The cross pins will give a good mechanical connection so its not depending just on the loctite - could be lots of force when moving the model around.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on April 05, 2021, 08:43:34 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Admiral_dk on April 05, 2021, 10:09:53 PM
I know it's not an extremely big spanner - but the biggest I have encountered, was in my youth.

I had an afternoon job at the local Authorized VW repair shop - running around with a broom and cleaning the place .... One day I was asked to turque the big Wheel Nut on a Beetle - the one in the centre (not the five small bolts holding the wheel). It was about 1.5m (~6') long and had a 10:1 reduction gear in the middle, in order to torque the Nut to 800Kg/m. - to a degree easy to understand that the Brake drum / Hub, needs to be firmly fixed to the axle .... It still needed me to put most off my weight on top of it + of cause one to press the brake pedal hard at the same time ....
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: simplyloco on April 05, 2021, 10:24:50 PM
I know it's not an extremely big spanner - but the biggest I have encountered, was in my youth.

Me too, I was about ten years old. My late father was a bulldozer driver, big CATS - D8s & D9s, and I used to go to work with him in the school holidays. I remember holding his hip as we both jumped off the track onto a one inch diameter tommy bar some six feet long to remove the nuts on the rear drive sprocket!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 05, 2021, 10:58:09 PM
I know it's not an extremely big spanner - but the biggest I have encountered, was in my youth.

Me too, I was about ten years old. My late father was a bulldozer driver, big CATS - D8s & D9s, and I used to go to work with him in the school holidays. I remember holding his hip as we both jumped off the track onto a one inch diameter tommy bar some six feet long to remove the nuts on the rear drive sprocket!
Only time I needed to jump on the bar for a lug nut was on my own car, an old Bobcat which was a Pinto with delusions of grandeur - fortunately mine was after (they claimed) they fixed the flaming gas tank issue!  One of the lugs was frozen on, tire was flat, car came with one of those silly folding one-arm lug nut wrenches, so a friend and I found a bit of pipe to put on a ratchet handle to break the nut loose. It got it loose, but destroyed the ratchet in the process. It was a Craftsman ratchet handle though, so back to Sears to get it swapped with a brand new one. Those were the days....   :o
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: gary.a.ayres on April 05, 2021, 11:34:29 PM
Looking good!
Will be great to see this develop...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steam guy willy on April 06, 2021, 12:12:05 AM
Hi all. this is one of my spanners !!! and these are the spanners and shadow board that are in the local New Mills pumping station that closed down in 1974 !!! This may be my next project btw.
 willy
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 06, 2021, 12:22:41 AM
The next project possibly being the engine at New Mills, or the shadow board?   :Lol:   And I am not commenting on the name on the spanner....  Nope. Not going to mention that...  :o
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 06, 2021, 12:26:22 AM
Looking good!
Will be great to see this develop...
Thanks Gary - I got the rest of the top plates tapped and test fit on the model. Found one rail that was just slightly short, tilting the top plate a fraction to the side. A bit of thin shim stock under the pad cured that. Also found that I had drilled one of the larger center holes on the wrong edge of the plate (moving too quick with the stack I guess). Drilled the correct one, and am filling the bad one with some JB Quik epoxy. It would only be visible by a shop elf on the lower pump platform looking up under the engine beds, but they LOVE to point out stufff like that and laugh...!
Tomorrow I'll probably get the pads loctited to the rails....
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: gary.a.ayres on April 06, 2021, 12:30:47 AM
but they LOVE to point out stufff like that and laugh...!

Oh, don't they just...!

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 06, 2021, 03:02:39 PM
This morning I made up some little spacer plates to keep the two side pairs of each set the correct distance apart, and glued the mortise and tenon joints together. There is tape at the bottom under each pad to keep any drips inside from glueing the pads to the bases.

(https://i.postimg.cc/BZ1hN8VT/IMG-9177.jpg)
I'll let the loctite set up, then unbolt the pads and cross pin the tenons for extra security.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: gary.a.ayres on April 06, 2021, 03:19:16 PM
Very nice. Starting to get that triple expansion feel about it already...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on April 06, 2021, 05:03:15 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

The name on the big wrench may have been chosen because it was less die work for the tool engraver than "His Royal Highness Richard III"  (just a theory)  :Lol: :shrug:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 06, 2021, 05:05:06 PM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

The name on the big wrench may have been chosen because it was less die work for the tool engraver than "His Royal Highness Richard III"  (just a theory)  :Lol: :shrug:
:Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 06, 2021, 10:05:27 PM
While waiting for the loctite on the frames to cure up (going to wait overnight on that) I couldn't wait to see how the pipework would look. I've been letting the 3D printer crank away on some pipe sections, doing the first couple over again with changes to print settings (lot to learn on that part of things). I started with the water intake pipes, which bring the water in from Lake Erie to the three pump valve housings on each side of the engine. These pipes will go between the lower ends of the frame legs, the output pipes go on the outside of the frame legs and meet at another Y fitting at the other end of the engine. These are all printed in PLA plastic, made in sections like the originals to bolt together. With a lot of bolts. A LOT of them... Here is what the assembly is starting to look like, these are the sections that will bolt to the first check valve housing. Then there will be two more straight sections between the housings. Going to take a while to put in all the fasteners!

(https://i.postimg.cc/cCbdBF4N/IMG-9178.jpg)
Depending on the angle you view them from, they either look nice and smooth, or from the other direction you can see the tiny bumps between the layers. After some reading and consulting with others in the RC submarine group, I did some experimenting and found that giving the outsides a coat of sealer smooths out the bumps - several things work, one that is very simple is some of the varnish I use on the boats, Helmsman Polyurethane Gloss - it flows out smooth, dries quick, and seems to adhere well. Then after that cures, a coat of the spray paint to match the cast iron look.
I could definitely turn the straight sections of the pipe on the lathe and drill the flanges - would take a LOT of metal to do them all. I have no clue how I would do the elbows and Y fittings without CNC. Same with the odd shapes to come on the pump valve housings. The actual pump chamber will be metal with seals to be able to pump water for demos - figure I can run plumbing fittings/pipes inside these plastic ones for the water to flow through, for demo it will be more of a water fountain cycle back into a container, no real pressure involved.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steam guy willy on April 06, 2021, 11:00:09 PM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

The name on the big wrench may have been chosen because it was less die work for the tool engraver than "His Royal Highness Richard III"  (just a theory)  :Lol: :shrug:

Hi that is exactly what I thought !!... :lolb: :lolb: perhaps ....  so ..was the smaller 5' 1" king !! not part of "the firm" ?!!!

Willy
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on April 06, 2021, 11:11:32 PM
Goodness, that is lot of bolts & nut, with many more to come  :facepalm:....must remember the original pipe spools with bends would have been sand cast and the straight spools Spun Cast, but both in steel with rough surface finishes

If you scraped the layers of paint off the original staight spools on the machine, you would probably find a course rotational pitch [similar to course lathe tooling marking] as a result of the spinning in the Spun Cast process

So, don't worry about any such rotational pitch marks on your PLA printed tubes

Derek 
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 06, 2021, 11:16:48 PM
Goodness, that is lot of bolts & nut, with many more to come  :facepalm: ....must remember the original pipe spools with bends would have been sand cast and the straight spools Spun Cast, but both in steel with rough surface finishes

If you scraped the layers of paint off the original staight spools on the machine, you would probably find a course rotational pitch [similar to course lathe tooling marking] as a result of the spinning in the Spun Cast process

So, don't worry about any such rotational pitch marks on your PLA printed tubes

Derek
Had not heard of spun casting on that kind of scale, but it makes sense. Is it a big mold spun around, or more of an extrusion type process? If not a mold, then the flanges would get welded on after? Did that process exist back in early 1900s?

EDIT: did some searching,  :atcomputer:   and saw that the spun casting was invented in 1918, the blueprints on this engine show 1911, so these would have been done on a sand cast method?
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on April 07, 2021, 05:34:58 AM
Wow, Chris, those pipe sections look great!

And what size are those fasteners you're using? 2-56?  or smaller?

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on April 07, 2021, 11:30:17 AM
Sorry....the actual vintage of the machine eluded me......[right or wrong, were were taught that this 'Spun Cast' process was progressed in the early 1920's in England after the secrets of the process  :zap: were acquired by deception from Germany? ]

If we are talking 1911+, obviously the straight pipe spools would have been sand cast, complete with the flanges ready for cleanup machining & flange bolt patterns drilled by Horizontal Boring machines

The surface finish would again be rough.........

Centrifically cast , or as originally termed as Spun Cast  pipe spools were made in semi continuous length, however dependent on the volume/tonnage of the Melt. Their flanges were carbon arc welded to make a one piece spool

Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 07, 2021, 12:26:09 PM
Wow, Chris, those pipe sections look great!

And what size are those fasteners you're using? 2-56?  or smaller?

Kim
The pipe fasteners are 2-56, with small-pattern scale nuts with 1/8" across flats and thicker than normal ones, give a good scaled look. Got them at Fastener Express, just ordered more since I am going through them quick. Also have some 1-72 and 0-80 fasteners for the smaller stuff to come later. Some of the bigger base fasteners are 4-40. The size of the fasteners was one of the things I had to juggle when deciding on the scale for the model.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 07, 2021, 12:28:46 PM
Sorry....the actual vintage of the machine eluded me......[right or wrong, were were taught that this 'Spun Cast' process was progressed in the early 1920's in England after the secrets of the process  :zap: were acquired by deception from Germany? ]

If we are talking 1911+, obviously the straight pipe spools would have been sand cast, complete with the flanges ready for cleanup machining & flange bolt patterns drilled by Horizontal Boring machines

The surface finish would again be rough.........

Centrifically cast , or as originally termed as Spun Cast  pipe spools were made in semi continuous length, however dependent on the volume/tonnage of the Melt. Their flanges were carbon arc welded to make a one piece spool

Derek
That was a time with the metal technology changing quickly, both in casting and in welding. I was surprised in that one photo that the casting part number was still visible and not covered in layers of paint - being indoors all those years really preserved things better than outside like bridge parts.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: ddmckee54 on April 07, 2021, 04:18:31 PM
Chris:

Not to be a noodge or anything, but did you allow for shrinkage when you printed those parts?  If you printed them at the proper dimension, when they cool they will shrink and be undersize.  DAMHIK  You can scale the entire part oversize in your slicer to compensate for this shrinkage.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 07, 2021, 04:34:36 PM
Chris:

Not to be a noodge or anything, but did you allow for shrinkage when you printed those parts?  If you printed them at the proper dimension, when they cool they will shrink and be undersize.  DAMHIK  You can scale the entire part oversize in your slicer to compensate for this shrinkage.

Don
No shrinkage so far on the parts, amount does vary with which material, infill, and layer density.  For these parts, a small amount would not matter, some it does.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: ddmckee54 on April 07, 2021, 08:48:55 PM
Yeah, as the parts get bigger shrinkage becomes more apparent.  I usually scale my prints to about 104%-105%, that usually gets me within 0.25mm of the actual dimension.  With an filament printer, I figure that's good enough for gubmint work.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 07, 2021, 09:57:21 PM
Yeah, as the parts get bigger shrinkage becomes more apparent.  I usually scale my prints to about 104%-105%, that usually gets me within 0.25mm of the actual dimension.  With an filament printer, I figure that's good enough for gubmint work.

Don
What kind of filiment do you use? So far I am using the PLA that it came with, imagine it probably varies with the material.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 07, 2021, 10:11:37 PM
Not much time in the shop today, this afternoon was the nicest weather so far this year so I went out canoeing with friends, awesome day out! Eagles fishing out of the trees, Bufflehead ducks migrating through, various land critters swimming around, turtles sunbathing - everyone was out!

I did get the frames unbolted from the base and the tape removed - glad I put the tape down to keep the loctite from sticking the frames to the base, a couple of the bits of tape had spots where the loctite had dripped down inside the mortises.
(https://i.postimg.cc/0yFxMspf/IMG-9179.jpg)
Got the first pair unbolted from the top plates and started drilling for the cross pins - thats as far as I got, will drill the rest tomorrow morning, the afternoon looks like even better weather so outside I go!
(https://i.postimg.cc/g0hp3TsP/IMG-9180.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: ddmckee54 on April 07, 2021, 10:35:24 PM
What kind of filiment do you use? So far I am using the PLA that it came with, imagine it probably varies with the material.

I use PLA because I can tolerate the smell, my printer is in my living room.  I used to shop around for whatever filament was the cheapest, but I found that if you want to keep getting the same color filament you need to pick a reliable company and stick with them.

I'm trying to find a close match to the Bruder red and yellow colors for a couple of RC construction equipment conversions that I've got underway.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Don1966 on April 07, 2021, 10:50:26 PM
Awwwww your doing it proud Dog. You still amaze me with your jigs and setups. It’s a joy to see them in action. Love the 3 D print outs...  :Love:



 :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 09, 2021, 09:51:24 PM
Back on the Holly model today, got the rest of the cross-pin holes drilled through the pads and frame rails, and loctited in brass pins in all of them. After letting that set up for a little while, started in shaping the pad sides. On one side the pad goes flush with the rail, at the same angle the rail is. That part was simple, clamp the rails in the mill vise and set the end mill to the height of the rail, and a couple passes to trim them even.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZqbnDxDg/IMG-9232.jpg)
The opposite side of each stays wider than the rail, but gets a slight angle along the upper 2/3rds of the side. For this, I got out the frame rail jig again, and set it at the angle in the vise. Then rain each end through to cut the sloped section. The jig has two positions for the cradles, each was used to get all the sides done.
(https://i.postimg.cc/fb8y4SGb/IMG-9233.jpg)
The ends of the pads get a slightly steeper angle on them, also about 2/3rds of the height of the pad. For this, set the jig up vertical, and tipped to give the angle (in this case just 4.7 degrees).
(https://i.postimg.cc/V656zLwW/IMG-9236.jpg)
So, once all the pad feet were shaped, it was time to fill in the 'ankles' above them. On the originals they were all cast in one piece with the rails, but for the model they are built up. Rather than put in a chunk of metal and attempt to mill the curve in, I tried using some JB Steel Stik epoxy putty. First time I've tried it - seems to work out okay. It comes as a stick with one part of the epoxy in the core, the other part wrapped around the outside. You cut off the amount you want from the end (I used a fresh exacto knife, the putty is pretty soft so it needs a sharp blade to avoid smooshing it). Then knead the parts together, and stick to the part:
(https://i.postimg.cc/853CcQPQ/IMG-9237.jpg)
I did both ends of four of the frame rails, and left them for a couple hours to harden up and see how the stuff shapes. On the package it says you have 3 to 5 minutes before it sets - in practice I got maybe a minute before it started to stiffen up and would not stick/shape well. So, learned to cut off about 1/8" at a time from the stick and do one end or so at a time.  After it cured up, I first tried a sanding drum in the rotary tool, that worked but clogged up pretty quick, though the clogged surface still cut since the steel powder in the epoxy turned it into an abrasive drum. Then tried a smaller diameter drum bur, that got into the corners better, also clogged but kept cutting. Here is what it looks like:
(https://i.postimg.cc/BbKn1YX8/IMG-9239.jpg)
Working out well, I am going to epoxy up the rest of the frame ends the same way.
After the ends are all shaped, the last thing to do on the frame rails is to drill near the center of the rails for a cross tube that will support the intermediat pump catwalk. Also, need to drill for a larger tube at the base of each rail that takes a large bolt from the floor plate - this one goes through both the pad and rail, and comes out part way up the rail. The four corner bolts connect into the base plates, this fifth bolt went right down into the concrete floor to hold the base plate and the rails down. There are other bolts through the base plates into the floor too.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Craig DeShong on April 10, 2021, 01:04:53 AM
Epoxy makes great fillets,I’ve used it myself.

On another note.... here is another ‘Chris’ model, proceeding at ‘break-neck’ speed,”does the man ever sleep?”. :shrug:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 10, 2021, 01:19:45 AM
Epoxy makes great fillets,I’ve used it myself.

On another note.... here is another ‘Chris’ model, proceeding at ‘break-neck’ speed,”does the man ever sleep?”. :shrug:
Did plenty of sleeping in meetings before retirement!  :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Steamer5 on April 10, 2021, 01:51:16 PM
 :popcornsmall: :popcornsmall: :popcornsmall: :drinking-41:

Looking good Chris

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 10, 2021, 02:56:56 PM
Thanks Kerrin!

This morning got the rest of the epoxy fillets shaped, then drilled and installed the tubes in the center of the frame rails. The other day I thought these were for supporting the platforms between the pumps, but on double-checking they are not near those. They are right in the middle of the rails, and so would be lifting points for moving and installing the frame rails. A number of the other big pieces have similar holes or rings, makes sense that they would cast in ways to connect to the parts for moving them.
(https://i.postimg.cc/xdHgyLN7/IMG-9240.jpg)
The tubes are a little longer than the depth of the rails, and stand proud on both sides.

So, whats left on the rails? I need to drill 1/4" holes through the bases for the floor mount bolts - these will be located using the drill jig made for the pads, and enlarged out to size. I need to work out the setup for that, not sure if there is enough height on the mill column. May do the drilling on the lathe with a vise/jig on the cross slide, or may tip the mill head 90 degrees and come in from the side.Also, there need to be holes drilled/tapped on the top pads to connect the brackets which hold up the catwalk around the engine beds on top of these frame rails.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on April 10, 2021, 05:38:45 PM
That's an interesting detail!   It's those kinds of little things that really make a model more 'real' you know?
Great work, Chris!
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steam guy willy on April 10, 2021, 07:29:11 PM
Hi Chris ...coming along great... :) :)

Willy
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 10, 2021, 07:53:47 PM
Thanks guys, makes a huge difference to work from the original machines blueprints rather than plans already modelled or from photos alone.




Did a little playing with vises and such, got a way figured out to hold the rails to drill the ends for the floor bolts. The mill column is the long one, but not quite enough to just clamp in the vise. The tenon jig is going to get bolted to a block, block bolted to the table edge with the rail hanging off the side. Drill bit has to go in the 3 jaw, regular chuck is too long. Will bolt the drill guide used for the pads back on to each rail for locating the drill, has to be in close alignment to the other holes. Pics tomorrow when I do that, today is another warm one so outside I go!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 11, 2021, 06:28:14 PM
So here is the setup for drilling the large holes in the bottom ends of the frame rails.
(https://i.postimg.cc/j2zgbzd7/IMG-9241.jpg)
Reused the clamping jig from making the tenons, bolted to a 1-2-3 block clamped to the mill table witht he part hanging off the front end of the table for the last bit of height needed.
(https://i.postimg.cc/02sXCHcd/IMG-9242.jpg)
Here are the first couple drilled, one of the left has a length of the round-stock in it, drilled through on the lathe. This will take a long bolt that runs down through the base plate and into the floor.
(https://i.postimg.cc/pV81ztYL/IMG-9243.jpg)
Next step is to drill/tap the holes at the top ends that take the brackets which will support the catwalk platform up at the level of the crankshaft. Remember that all these frames so far are under the engine, around the pump chambers, shown in the red circle in the next picture. The actual engine comes later...!

(https://i.postimg.cc/5yMgn6qN/DSC-7603-Lower.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on April 12, 2021, 02:02:54 PM
Hi Chris, I was wondering how you planned to drill the legs for the floor bolt bosses. The height of the parts and the shallow cutting angle struck me as potentially tricky. You obviously solved it perfectly, the cuts themselves look really great. Did you "drill" with an endmill on an extended shank?

Parts and assembly look great, in any case.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 12, 2021, 02:35:36 PM
Hi Chris, I was wondering how you planned to drill the legs for the floor bolt bosses. The height of the parts and the shallow cutting angle struck me as potentially tricky. You obviously solved it perfectly, the cuts themselves look really great. Did you "drill" with an endmill on an extended shank?

Parts and assembly look great, in any case.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:


Hi CNR,


I drilled them with a normal twist drill held in the 3 jaw, with the drill guide plate to line things up. Going through the pad was fine, past that it was angling out the leg which wanted to pull the drill to the side, so I took that part slow and backed out a few times to minimize that. Worked out well. I thought about an end mill, but it would have to be one with a long cutter section, and on deep plunges they can chatter. The drill worked good though. The pipe inserts were cut and drilled on the lathe then loctited in.


Got started tapping all the 1-72 bracket holes at the tops this morning, 6 per rail... That tapping jig is working out great.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 12, 2021, 03:05:12 PM
Yesterday I got the small holes for the catwalk brackets drilled in the top of the frame rails - one set on the outer end of each pad, one set on the outer side. To line up and support the rail, there is a little machinist jack on the left, out of frame of the picture.
(https://i.postimg.cc/htvPc7jX/IMG-9244.jpg)
This morning have started tapping the holes, 4 rails down, 8 to go...
(https://i.postimg.cc/K8WczvkJ/IMG-9245.jpg)
Once they are all tapped, I will get them re-assembled to the top plates, and then I think its time for some paint on them!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 12, 2021, 07:33:21 PM
While continuing the tapping on the second half of the frame rails, I started to paint the first half of them. Here they are side by side - quite a different appearance:
(https://i.postimg.cc/QM3RbHz6/IMG-9246.jpg)
Here are the sets of holes in the top ends - 3 each on side and back faces for the catwalk brackets:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Jn7vfSMZ/IMG-9247.jpg)
Just put the first light coat on the second batch of rails, and marked out the rest of the shaping/holes to do in the top plates. These plates form part of the engine crankshaft beds. Need to add four more holes for the tops of the pump force chambers to bolt to. There will be pillars coming up from the pump chambers too, that bolt to the bottom of the engine beds. Must have been amazing amounts of  vertical force in the pumping action, everything braces to everything.
(https://i.postimg.cc/jj4BkR0R/IMG-9249.jpg)
Also also, while doing the machining, the 3D printer has been spitting out a couple parts a day for the pump valve housing and pipes. These housings will not have pressure on them in the model, will put some PEX or some such tubing inside with check valves, the pump chambers themselves will be all metal though. These housings would have required a great deal of piecing up to get the shapes, the upper force chambers have more brackets hanging off them too. Aside from the pump housings/pipes, very little on the rest of the model will be printed. Pretty happy with the printer so far, the goofed parts so far were my fault, not its.

(https://i.postimg.cc/1tW2sM3T/IMG-9248.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: gary.a.ayres on April 12, 2021, 11:07:13 PM
Looking good - the painted columns and the 3D printed housings....  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on April 12, 2021, 11:40:50 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 12, 2021, 11:47:34 PM
Pumpframe Forest!
(https://i.postimg.cc/hG22Nrs5/IMG-9250.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/bJdmPtFN/IMG-9251.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on April 13, 2021, 01:01:57 AM
Morning Chris....I have gone back a few pages, but still am not sure what these tubular vertical spool sections as fitted to each of the feet [outboard] are for?

You mention a long mounting bolt?......but each foot appears to be thru-bolted by 4 corner bolts..

Derek

 
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 13, 2021, 01:09:40 AM
Hi Derek - The four corner bolts in each pad extend down through the base plate for that cylinder. The three base plates have long bolts running down into the concrete foundation of the building. These tubes on each frame leg also take long bolts that go through the base plates and deep into the floor. In all, there are 16 bolts tying together the pads and base plate, sixteen tying together the legs and base plate, and eight that tie the legs, base plate, and floor together. That thing aint goin nowhere! Aside from how many tons it all weighs...

I have not put in the long bolts in the tubes yet, need to make the studs for those and also for the corners of the pads, for now am using hex screws. The long ones are larger diameter than the corner ones too.

Chris :cheers:
(https://i.postimg.cc/WzZtJs4c/Holly-Pumping-Engine-Lower-Corner.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on April 13, 2021, 01:23:43 AM
OK....understood..... :facepalm: "Main Frame Anchor Bolts"

Currently, you have the main pump frame base plate bolted down by 8 bolts then the wooden display border....would you consider a larger footprint display board with a 1" plus wide [on each of 4 sides] natural coloured fine concrete floor around the complete display base?

All of the photographs display the concrete floor as the same grey tone as the pump & associated   :hammerbash:

Could look the part  :wine1:

Derek

PS.....just found plain Brickwork floor in  some images..... :Doh:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dave Otto on April 13, 2021, 01:26:40 AM
Enjoying this build Chris!

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 13, 2021, 01:48:48 AM
OK....understood..... :facepalm: "Main Frame Anchor Bolts"

Currently, you have the main pump frame base plate bolted down by 8 bolts then the wooden display border....would you consider a larger footprint display board with a 1" plus wide [on each of 4 sides] natural coloured fine concrete floor around the complete display base?

All of the photographs display the concrete floor as the same grey tone as the pump & associated   :hammerbash:

Could look the part  :wine1:

Derek

PS.....just found plain Brickwork floor in  some images..... :Doh:
The plate bolted to the wood is representing the concrete floor, at least a portion of it. Had to draw the line somewhere, or I could have wound up having to make the whole building. Didn't want to make five engines, so didn't do that!!  :Lol:




Where is the brick floor? Too settled in the recliner to go look on the main PC!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 13, 2021, 01:49:15 AM
Enjoying this build Chris!

Dave
Thanks Dave, me too!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 13, 2021, 01:51:14 AM
OK....understood..... :facepalm: "Main Frame Anchor Bolts"

Currently, you have the main pump frame base plate bolted down by 8 bolts then the wooden display border....would you consider a larger footprint display board with a 1" plus wide [on each of 4 sides] natural coloured fine concrete floor around the complete display base?

All of the photographs display the concrete floor as the same grey tone as the pump & associated   :hammerbash:

Could look the part  :wine1:

Derek

PS.....just found plain Brickwork floor in  some images..... :Doh:
The plate bolted to the wood is representing the concrete floor, at least a portion of it. Had to draw the line somewhere, or I could have wound up having to make the whole building. Didn't want to make five engines, so didn't do that!!  :Lol:




Where is the brick floor? Too settled in the recliner to go look on the main PC!
Are you talking about the red around the modern blue pumps? Thats a new layer on top of the concrete, only in the new pump section.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on April 13, 2021, 02:43:15 AM
There appears to be a bricked in floor area [in yellow] immediately up to the actual Plinth of the unit......[Plinth = Base]

 :ThumbsUp:

Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 13, 2021, 02:57:05 AM
There appears to be a bricked in floor area [in yellow] immediately up to the actual Plinth of the unit......[Plinth = Base]

 :ThumbsUp:

Derek
Well, I'll be dipped in elf-snot!  (ick!)

How many times have I looked at all the photos and never noticed that! Or in person either that day.  Checked the original full-res images, and it does appear to be some sort of square tile, about 1'  or 18" square, where I thought it was just concrete. So much old dirt on it that I never saw that. Good catch!  In the plans they just show poured concrete, so my brain fixed on that. Good catch!   :ThumbsUp:

In some of the full-res pictures I can see where the area between the three cast base plates is raised concrete, and around the edges it is crumbled at the bottom, wonder if they had made changes/repairs at some point? Or if it was the tile around the raised area always. Huh.  Its so much fun to keep finding new details!
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 13, 2021, 02:59:18 AM
Looking through more of the pictures, I keep finding more tools laying about, more of the big wrenches, brooms, the big hooks that would be on the end of chain falls, that sort of thing. Its like 'Wheres Waldo', or 'Wheres Waldo's Wrench' !!!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 13, 2021, 03:10:38 AM
Interesting detail in the corner of one of the pictures in the collection, here you can see the corner of the engine and its base in the upper right, next to that is a channel around the base with a raised area that has the tiles. Makes sense, that gives any spilled water places to be channelled away without getting the whole floor and anything on it wet.
(https://i.postimg.cc/6pZ3jWV7/DSC-7469.jpg)

Another picture was of a stats sheet, showed the weight of each engine as 1100 tons, flywheels are each 30 tons, capacity per engine per day was 30 million gallons, 946.71 gallons per revolution, each engine 1200 horsepower.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on April 13, 2021, 05:34:38 AM
Wow, Chris!  This is an amazing build!  Love the big printed pipe chunks!  And the support frame forest :)

In that last picture you just posted, does it show THREE bolt heads in the end of that support?  Or is that lump in the middle something else?

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on April 13, 2021, 05:51:45 AM
So the 16 x Main Frame Anchor Bolts are just as such...holding down bolts, not any form of alignment tool........those lumps do this

"Or is that lump in the middle something else"?.......mmmm.... the head of a taper dowel pin?  :Doh:

We also see, low angled [low flow] concrete open ditch 'green slime' water drains .... :naughty: which were absolutely common place in all machinery plant floor structures

Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 13, 2021, 12:26:38 PM
Wow, Chris!  This is an amazing build!  Love the big printed pipe chunks!  And the support frame forest :)

In that last picture you just posted, does it show THREE bolt heads in the end of that support?  Or is that lump in the middle something else?

Kim
The middle hole in the end of the pad is for an alignment pin - a lot of the connections have them for lining up the castings on assembly.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 13, 2021, 12:32:00 PM
So the 16 x Main Frame Anchor Bolts are just as such...holding down bolts, not any form of alignment tool........those lumps do this

"Or is that lump in the middle something else"?.......mmmm.... the head of a taper dowel pin?  :Doh:

We also see, low angled [low flow] concrete open ditch 'green slime' water drains .... :naughty: which were absolutely common place in all machinery plant floor structures

Derek
Especially water pumping plants, I would assume! The floor there is below the level of Lake Erie, which is only a few hundred feet away - behind this building was the boiler building (since collapsed in a blizzard), that was next to the lake. Offshore there is an island building out in the lake that houses the intakes for the water pipes coming into the pumps. The balcony that people are standing on in the pictures is at ground level of the area. I would expect that this setup avoids having to pump in water to prime the pumps.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on April 13, 2021, 02:37:41 PM
All OK, & agreed Chris......our job is to sit down & get on with watching the build  :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:   :cheers: ...Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 13, 2021, 03:21:50 PM
All OK, & agreed Chris......our job is to sit down & get on with watching the build  :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:   :cheers: ...Derek
Oh, just watching? I thought you were going to stop by and help shovel out swarf!   :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 13, 2021, 05:02:40 PM
This morning started in on shaping the engine bed end plates, first cut the recesses at the corners and the section on the other side in the middle. The plates were stacked and bolted together so all could be done at once.
(https://i.postimg.cc/63fbtYTN/IMG-9252.jpg)
Then moved the stack to the rotary table to cut the arcs, which are concentric to each other so only one time to center/position the stack.
(https://i.postimg.cc/j288J2zg/IMG-9253.jpg)
Here are the shaped plates:
(https://i.postimg.cc/XqNHJdyB/IMG-9254.jpg)
and showing where they will sit on top of the lower frame rails:
(https://i.postimg.cc/xjgpZxWv/IMG-9255.jpg)
Next step? Think I will make the studs to hold the frame rails to the bases, the corner ones are 2-56, the long ones in the tubes are 4-40.  After that will likely start on the pump chambers that go in the center of each base plate....
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on April 13, 2021, 07:05:46 PM
Thanks Chris & Derek, for answering my question.

And nice RT work on those engine bed plates.  The curviness adds something to the otherwise linear parts :)   :popcorn: :popcorn:

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on April 13, 2021, 07:32:51 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Good luck with making the 9,368 studs!   :Lol::cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 13, 2021, 08:29:20 PM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Good luck with making the 9,368 studs!   :Lol: :cheers:
I shipped the materials to your shop elves with instructions that they should lock you in the closet till you finish making them. I included ten boxes of cookies as bribes for them. Have fun!!
 :ROFL: :lolb: :LittleDevil:
Actually have made the studs needed for the lower ends this afternoon - 48 for the pad corners, 12 for the longer tubes, plus another dozen to get started on the upper ends. Cut them on my little hobby size chop saw with an abrasive wheel, cleaned up the ends on the belt sander, and loctited nuts near one end of each, which are curing now. I'd do more, but my fingers said thats enough and went for a snack!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 13, 2021, 08:32:04 PM
Thanks Chris & Derek, for answering my question.

And nice RT work on those engine bed plates.  The curviness adds something to the otherwise linear parts :)   :popcorn: :popcorn:

Kim
The curves are more functional than decorative, I think - they had to bow out to give room for the big end of the con-rod to come around, and that way they didn't have to make the frames farther apart. No where near as great looking as the big Victorian pumping engines with all the gingerbread and cornice moldings (probably a good thing for me! )
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on April 14, 2021, 12:31:17 AM

"I shipped the materials to your shop elves with instructions that they should lock you in the closet till you finish making them. I included ten boxes of cookies as bribes for them. Have fun!!
 :ROFL: :lolb: :LittleDevil:
Actually have made the studs needed for the lower ends this afternoon - 48 for the pad corners, 12 for the longer tubes, plus another dozen to get started on the upper ends. Cut them on my little hobby size chop saw with an abrasive wheel, cleaned up the ends on the belt sander, and loctited nuts near one end of each, which are curing now. I'd do more, but my fingers said thats enough and went for a snack!"

My wife just let me out of the closet. Shop elves here had a field day but no work done on your 9,368 studs I'm afraid. The shop elves were busy making excuses to my wife for where all the muffled shouts were coming from.  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 14, 2021, 03:15:27 PM
Well, since CNR's elves went and partied in the hot tub rather than make the studs for me, I've been getting more batches made.
(https://i.postimg.cc/XJmJ54Yk/IMG-9261.jpg)
Here is a shot of the difference - on the left the frame rail is held on with hex head screws (not bad) where the right has the studs (better). Also, you can see the larger studs holding the assembly to the floor using the tubes in the frame rails.
(https://i.postimg.cc/0y0bBTV9/IMG-9256.jpg)
The 3D printer has been chugging away in the other room too, have the lower pipe sections as well as the lower valve housings all printed and ready for sanding/painting. Now have started in on the upper pipes and the force chambers, which sit above the valve housings - the force chambers were kept partly full of air to act as a cushion against water hammering and even out the pressures that vary during the pump strokes. The three pumps were simple rams, single acting, 120 degrees apart on the crankshaft, so the pressures would oscillate a bit during each revolution.
(https://i.postimg.cc/QtHCVHhM/IMG-9259.jpg)
The pipe at the bottom is the water intake - just above that was a large set of check valves, beyond which the water would flow through the oblong pipe to the center pump ram chamber. Above the oblong pipe was another platform full of check valves leading to the force chamber above, and ultimately to the output pipe on the outside of the force chamber, visible in this photo:
(https://i.postimg.cc/bv6dzQXM/IMG-9258.jpg)
The hole at the top of the force chamber will take a pipe that was used to pump air in/out to adjust the water level in the top chamber. The smaller round covered ports were manholes to allow access to the check valves. Hundreds and hundreds of check valves!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: ddmckee54 on April 14, 2021, 03:57:25 PM
Chris:

What were your print settings when you printed those parts, filament type, layer height, infill, etc... enquiring 3D printers want to know.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on April 14, 2021, 04:37:02 PM
That's a lot of studs, Chris!

Did they have studs in the floor to connect the frames to?  In the picture in Reply #260, it looks like two hex-head bolts there.  It could be studs though.  Hard to tell. You have access to higher-res pictures though...

The printed pipes sure look good!   :popcorn:

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: joe d on April 14, 2021, 05:40:11 PM
This is looking really good, Chris!  Seeing your pipe-work really brings home the value of the printer, fabricating all that would be a nightmare.

Joe
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 14, 2021, 06:55:52 PM
Chris:

What were your print settings when you printed those parts, filament type, layer height, infill, etc... enquiring 3D printers want to know.

Don
Hi Don,  will look up the settings later, what I recall is these are .15mm and .20mm layers depending on the part, PLA, .4mm nozzle.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 14, 2021, 06:59:54 PM
That's a lot of studs, Chris!

Did they have studs in the floor to connect the frames to?  In the picture in Reply #260, it looks like two hex-head bolts there.  It could be studs though.  Hard to tell. You have access to higher-res pictures though...

The printed pipes sure look good!   :popcorn:

Kim
They are studs, not much protuding. The printed parts are coming out well, the shallow curves need some smoothing. After experiments settled on fine paper, slowest speed, with the little detail sander, any faster it heats up too much. Using a wet dry paper, dipping the part in water frequently. Let dry, and it paints nicely.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 14, 2021, 07:01:59 PM
This is looking really good, Chris!  Seeing your pipe-work really brings home the value of the printer, fabricating all that would be a nightmare.

Joe
Some complex shapes, don't know how I would do them, and would waste tons of metal. The pump core section, which will be working, will be metal. Should be a great tool for the rc boats too!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 14, 2021, 07:32:37 PM
Chris:

What were your print settings when you printed those parts, filament type, layer height, infill, etc... enquiring 3D printers want to know.

Don
Hi Don,  will look up the settings later, what I recall is these are .15mm and .20mm layers depending on the part, PLA, .4mm nozzle.
Used 15% infill, though on these parts there is not much infill. Gyroid infill pattern. Monotonic top/bottom, 5 layers.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 14, 2021, 07:38:58 PM
That's a lot of studs, Chris!

Did they have studs in the floor to connect the frames to?  In the picture in Reply #260, it looks like two hex-head bolts there.  It could be studs though.  Hard to tell. You have access to higher-res pictures though...

The printed pipes sure look good!   :popcorn:

Kim
They are studs, not much protuding. The printed parts are coming out well, the shallow curves need some smoothing. After experiments settled on fine paper, slowest speed, with the little detail sander, any faster it heats up too much. Using a wet dry paper, dipping the part in water frequently. Let dry, and it paints nicely.
Looking through the high res pictures more, the lowest level uses studs, the upper levels are hex head bolts. The lower level studs have little sticking through, and most have enough dust/dirt on top that its hard to tell.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on April 14, 2021, 09:04:34 PM
That's a lot of studs, Chris!

Did they have studs in the floor to connect the frames to?  In the picture in Reply #260, it looks like two hex-head bolts there.  It could be studs though.  Hard to tell. You have access to higher-res pictures though...

The printed pipes sure look good!   :popcorn:

Kim
They are studs, not much protuding. The printed parts are coming out well, the shallow curves need some smoothing. After experiments settled on fine paper, slowest speed, with the little detail sander, any faster it heats up too much. Using a wet dry paper, dipping the part in water frequently. Let dry, and it paints nicely.
Looking through the high res pictures more, the lowest level uses studs, the upper levels are hex head bolts. The lower level studs have little sticking through, and most have enough dust/dirt on top that its hard to tell.


Do they have 1 & 1/2 threads protruding through the nut? :)  Isn't that the standard I've heard people talk about?    :Lol:

Thanks for checking Chris!
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: ddmckee54 on April 14, 2021, 09:05:43 PM
Chris:

You've probably already said, but what slicer do you use?

A couple of questions about the pumping section:

You say the pump core section will be working.  Do you mean the pump parts will be in the correct location and connected to the engine, but not truely functional - or do you intend to be able to pump something with it?

If you're going to pump something with it, do you intend to hide the inlet and discharge piping inside the printed piping, or actually use the printed piping as inlet and discharge?

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 14, 2021, 10:12:21 PM
That's a lot of studs, Chris!

Did they have studs in the floor to connect the frames to?  In the picture in Reply #260, it looks like two hex-head bolts there.  It could be studs though.  Hard to tell. You have access to higher-res pictures though...

The printed pipes sure look good!   :popcorn:

Kim
They are studs, not much protuding. The printed parts are coming out well, the shallow curves need some smoothing. After experiments settled on fine paper, slowest speed, with the little detail sander, any faster it heats up too much. Using a wet dry paper, dipping the part in water frequently. Let dry, and it paints nicely.
Looking through the high res pictures more, the lowest level uses studs, the upper levels are hex head bolts. The lower level studs have little sticking through, and most have enough dust/dirt on top that its hard to tell.


Do they have 1 & 1/2 threads protruding through the nut? :)  Isn't that the standard I've heard people talk about?    :Lol:

Thanks for checking Chris!
Kim
Looks to be about that in the pictures.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 14, 2021, 10:18:06 PM
Chris:

You've probably already said, but what slicer do you use?

A couple of questions about the pumping section:

You say the pump core section will be working.  Do you mean the pump parts will be in the correct location and connected to the engine, but not truely functional - or do you intend to be able to pump something with it?

If you're going to pump something with it, do you intend to hide the inlet and discharge piping inside the printed piping, or actually use the printed piping as inlet and discharge?

Don
The pumps will be (hopefully) fully functional. What I'm planning on doing is have the central pump chamber match the original, but the check valves in the scaled-down version would be teensy. And there are thousands of them. So, I am printing the valve housings, hollow, and will put tubing/tees/elbows inside to direct the water, and put check valves on the inlet/outlet of the pump chamber, inside the printed housings. I'd like to be able to run the tubing from the inlet/outlet to a water tank to show the pumping action while running the engine. It wont be pushing against pressure like the real one did, so plastic tubing should work. Going to mock it up outside the model to test, once its sealed up/bolted in, it would be a real chore to take it apart again!  I've got some stainless ball assorted-sizes coming, and I have the tubing/connectors on the shelf. I'm going to turn up the first pump chamber, and do some tests. The plunger is about 1" diameter, so it will want to move a lot of water (the real engine pumped almost 1000 gallons per revolution of the engine).
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 14, 2021, 10:35:17 PM
I get asked a lot about using large size brass in my models, which when buying small lengths is REALLY expensive. I needed some more 2-1/4" diameter stock for the pump chambers, each is nearly 4" long. I need 3 of them. Plus will use more on other parts later on this model, and on future models.

For comparison, I went to Online Metals (middle of the range on pricing, prices do vary by source/size/date, this is just an example). To get 4" long pieces, they are currently $68 apiece, or a 12" length is $168. Plus shipping, probably at least $20.

 Then I went over to Yarde Metals, where I buy a lot of larger stock - they sell offcuts, 'drops', in their Drop Zone section.  They had a 36" length of 2-1/4" 360 brass roundbar, thats triple the length, for $217. And the shipping on 42 pounds of bar was only $13. Hmmm, which will I go for....  :slap: Very little price difference, enough bar to last the next few projects instead of part of this one.

This is how I usually buy, when I can find the offcuts or bar on sale - buying in longer lengths and stock up, rather than buying just enough for what I need this week, paying higher per-foot prices and lots for shipping costs. Yes, I am laying out a little more right now, but in the long run its hugely cheaper. Buying offcuts requires checking back with suppliers more often since their stock changes daily/weekly, but for a 60% savings? Easy to justify.

Okay, off soapbox, for now! I get questions on this a lot, thought I'd throw this out there. If you have machine shops or metal dealers near you, its worth stopping in for a chat, many will sell leftovers cheap.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on April 14, 2021, 11:04:19 PM
I just wish I had Ye Olde Scrappe Yarde    :embarassed:   in my town.........the metal suppliers local to me are not good.

Great progress on the Holly engine. 3D prints look fabulous!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: propforward on April 14, 2021, 11:55:56 PM
Excellent approach to material buying. Going to look for a local material supplier!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 15, 2021, 12:25:37 AM
Excellent approach to material buying. Going to look for a local material supplier!
For those in the US, the Yarde Metals I mentioned is a large commercial supplier in the northeast. Go to thier website, and look for thier Drop Zone, its where they list thier offcuts, for buying online. Selection varies weekly, most pieces are two to three foot long. Good if you don't have a local place.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: propforward on April 15, 2021, 01:39:21 AM
Brilliant! Good to know - thanks!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on April 15, 2021, 05:32:52 AM
Good input, Chris!

Unfortunately, I've found that Yarde Metal's shipping is not so favorable to me, since I'm in the NW.  But Online Metals shipping is MUCH better for me than for you.  The metal isn't any cheaper for me though :(

I've also found that you have to check around.  Sometimes SpeedyMetals is cheaper and sometimes Online Metals is.  I order from both.

And I've listened to your recommendation and do check for cutoff's and order them when I can (when shipping doesn't chew up all the potential savings at least!)

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 15, 2021, 12:44:07 PM
Good input, Chris!

Unfortunately, I've found that Yarde Metal's shipping is not so favorable to me, since I'm in the NW.  But Online Metals shipping is MUCH better for me than for you.  The metal isn't any cheaper for me though :(

I've also found that you have to check around.  Sometimes SpeedyMetals is cheaper and sometimes Online Metals is.  I order from both.

And I've listened to your recommendation and do check for cutoff's and order them when I can (when shipping doesn't chew up all the potential savings at least!)

Kim
Agreed on all points. The prices and shipping vary a lot, hard to predict!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steamboatmodel on April 15, 2021, 05:02:26 PM
North of the Border it is usually Metals Supermarket or some of the recycling places. With the recycling spots you usually end up with mystery metals, usually good on copper pipe though.
Gerald.
 
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 15, 2021, 10:11:41 PM
Today was a boring turning day.  Well, technically,. turning then boring!   :Lol:

Started in on the first of the pump cylinders. There are three of them, one per engine cylinder, the plunger driven by rods coming down from the crosshead above.  I started with a length of 2-1/4" diameter brass roundbar, and turned the outside to shape.

(https://i.postimg.cc/8P3zzkft/IMG-9262.jpg)
The chamber flares out in the center to give the water space around the plunger. The plunger is about 1" diameter, with a 2" stroke, and the chamber is a little over 3" long overall. To give swinging room and room for the chuck jaws on the lathe I put the riser blocks in on the lathe. After shaping the outside, the part was swapped end for end and moved to the mill to drill the pattern of 16 2-56 clear mounting holes in the base. Back on the lathe, the bottom was trimmed to final length (it was left a little long to get the part past the chuck jaws). Then it was bolted to a steel faceplate that had a matching pattern of tapped holes, to start boring it out. I initially tried holding the part in the chuck for boring, but with that much weight and overhang the brass kept wiggling a little loose in the jaws, so I went for the faceplate - much more secure.
(https://i.postimg.cc/8z6PJ8hD/IMG-9263.jpg)
I drilled/bored out the inside to the 1" size of the plunger, then enlarged the inside more, and turned in the seat for an o-ring for a seal. There will be a cap that sits above the o-ring to hold it in place. On the original engine they used a large flat ring seal, not sure what material, but basically the same idea. The plunger does not have to seal down its length like a engine piston would, just needs the seal at the opening - the plunger displaces the water inside the chamber to force it out, and on the upstroke the volume un-displaced draws in the next 'chunk' of water. The chamber looks a lot like an old style milk can. Once all the boring is complete on the chambers, I'll make and add the pipe flanges on the sides, and on top it gets a pair of brackets that will hold struts extending up to the bottom of the engine beds. Lots to go on these parts! 
In the background am printing more of the force chambers, and tomorrow I go get my second dose of the vaccine!   :cartwheel:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Don1966 on April 15, 2021, 10:57:21 PM
Awwww the smell of brass......... :Love:


 :drinking-41:
Don

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: propforward on April 16, 2021, 01:18:49 AM
Wow - that is a wonderfully ornate part.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 16, 2021, 05:48:51 PM
One ornate brass pump chamber all turned down to shape, being shown off by a happy shop elf just back from his shot
(https://i.postimg.cc/Zq390pV5/IMG-9264.jpg)
A look inside, showing the lip for the o ring seal and how it widens out down inside
(https://i.postimg.cc/50VXzyRq/IMG-9265.jpg)
The top needs to be drilled/tapped for the seal retaining ring, and there are more parts to add to the outside - brackets for the vertical supports, and the pipe flanges. I am planning on building check valves into the pipe flange extensions. But, that work needs to wait a day since I want to leave the mill set up at the proper setting for the bottom end bolt holes, and this was the last of the 2-1/4" brass rod that I had on hand, the new bar will be here tomorrow. So, in the meantime I've started bolting the printed pipework/housings together. Lots, and lots, and lots of tiny nuts to thread on...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 16, 2021, 05:50:12 PM
Oh, and that logo on the sticker is from the state fairgrounds where they had one of the huge exhibition buildings set up as a vaccination site. Very efficient setup!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on April 16, 2021, 10:32:02 PM
Pump parts look great!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Congrats on the vaccination.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on April 16, 2021, 10:43:21 PM
Very nice looking brass pump chamber, Chris!

Have you had any side effects from your second shot yet Chris?  I got my second just recently and I was feeling pretty lousy the day after.  Slight fever & chills... not a lot of energy, background headache.  But it only lasted a day.  Hope you don't experience too much of that.

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 16, 2021, 10:56:48 PM
Thanks Kim/CNR.  Been putting in a couple of sessions with the printed parts, getting subassemblies made - several dozen screws and nuts per piece. Only thing I have noticed so far is the sore spot at the injection site, same as first dose. Hopefully that will be all!


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: 90LX_Notch on April 17, 2021, 12:43:56 AM
Chris-

That is a nice looking urn for the departed elves  :LittleAngel:.

-Bob
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Craig DeShong on April 17, 2021, 03:04:23 AM
Chris, I’m “blown away” with this build.  The printed parts are just fantastic, as is your other work.  This may be your best model yet!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on April 17, 2021, 09:26:20 AM
Absolutely Craig........this Y Pipe Spool is amazing  :headscratch:....more computing power  :atcomputer: than any Appolo voyage  .... Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 17, 2021, 01:32:28 PM
Absolutely Craig........this Y Pipe Spool is amazing  :headscratch: ....more computing power  :atcomputer: than any Appolo voyage  .... Derek
Those Y pipes (bigger one on the output side) took some figuring out. Fusion 360 has a lofting feature where you can make a sketch drawing of a planar cross section, then another sketch showing the path it takes, and then loft extrude the cross section along the path. Thats how I did the Y's, elbows, and later on the railings going around curved platforms. With one side of the Y done from base to end, it was cut off at the middle and then mirrored to get the other side.
The printer is coming in very very handy for these pump shells and pipes, I could have done the pipes with flanges easy enough, but the Y's, elbows, and housings would have been very difficult and very expensive to piece up from metal.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 17, 2021, 01:34:22 PM
Chris-

That is a nice looking urn for the departed elves  :LittleAngel: .

-Bob
They have been trying to contach W. E. Coyote for some barrels of black powder, they thing it is an elf-launching canon!  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 17, 2021, 01:35:50 PM
Chris, I’m “blown away” with this build.  The printed parts are just fantastic, as is your other work.  This may be your best model yet!
Thanks Craig!  I'm trying to step up my level of detail on this one - thinking back to the ones I saw in places like the Mariners Museum when I was a kid, that got me hooked on steam engines in the first place.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on April 17, 2021, 01:51:23 PM
Sorry...I have read your words  :happyreader: x 10 times  :insane:

I can sort of understand the logic with a 90 degree or a 135 degree elbow of equal or unequal flanged pipe spool piece :naughty: ...but am a little lost in the one piece printing of a 3 flange Y pipe spool piece  :facepalm:

Derek

Or is there a joint somewhere here?
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 17, 2021, 02:03:35 PM
Sorry...I have read your words  :happyreader: x 10 times  :insane:

I can sort of understand the logic with a 90 degree or a 135 degree elbow of equal or unequal flanged pipe spool piece :naughty: ...but am a little lost in the one piece printing of a 3 flange Y pipe spool piece  :facepalm:

Derek
In that picture the Y piece and the two elbows, which match the original machine shapes, have already been bolted together at the flanges. The software for 'slicing' the part into layers for printing handled everything else - you position the part how you want it on the printing plate, and it generates the g-code file with all the movements to print it. It also will generate support material, which is extra little towers of printed plastic that let it start the flanges that hang out in mid-air, since anything over about a 45 degree overhang wont print without the next extruded layer falling off. In the picture I had already removed that support material. I printed the Y with the large center flange down on the plate, the two angled flanges hanging out up above.

Not sure if I am answering your question? Attached is a picture of two of the upper force chambers I printed yesterday. The one on the left still has the support material on it, the one on the right has had that material snapped off (it just connects in a small area so it does not stick hard).
Sorry if I am answering badly - if so let me  know and I'll steer in a different direction!
Chris

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on April 17, 2021, 02:17:27 PM
Maybe if I had seen a few images of the Y piece, before the supporting elements had been cut away and removed would enlighten my mind a little  :Jester:

Keep going...I am sure I will get the understanding as you print/create   :killcomputer: more elements [hunks of pipes & things]

Derek  :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 17, 2021, 02:44:55 PM
Maybe if I had seen a few images of the Y piece, before the supporting elements had been cut away and removed would enlighten my mind a little  :Jester:

Keep going...I am sure I will get the understanding as you print/create   :killcomputer: more elements [hunks of pipes & things]

Derek  :cheers:
No problem at all - I didn't have a clue on this stuff till I got the printer and started going through the tutorials. I am giving you all 30 minutes of my unextensive experience!   :Lol:

Here is a screen shot of the larger Y piece in the slicer software, showing how it is oriented on the printing plate and what the support material it generates looks like, along with the printed part. I did not take any shots while printing. It lays down 0.2mm tall layers of plastic at a time, which is why it gets the stepped look on shallow angled areas - those will be sanded smooth before painting.


Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: kvom on April 17, 2021, 03:18:19 PM
I was thinking how I'd model the Y pipe in Solidworks.  I think the lofting is pretty similar, although no need to split/mirror the halves.

1) Draw two curves on plane 1 that follow the centers of the pipes (joined at one end).

2) Create planes perpendicular to plane 1 and to the ends of the lines.  On each of these planes draw a circle equal to the outside diameter of the pipes (input can be larger than output).

3) Apply the Lofted Boss/Base feature to both output circle sketches with the input circle as the destination.

4) Sketch a circle on each the three end planes equal to the inside diameter of the pipes.

5) Apply a Lofted Cut feature to remove the inside of the pipes.

6) Draw the 3 flanges on the 3 end planes and extrude them.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 17, 2021, 03:25:38 PM
Pretty muchj the same Kvom - with any of the apps and thier tools, sure there are multiple ways to do it. The thing I struggled with at first was how to have the two pipes angle off but leaving that center area clear, thats why I did the cut and mirror.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steamer on April 17, 2021, 04:00:39 PM
Crueby, are you going to use these as is? or use them as patterns?

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 17, 2021, 04:05:32 PM
Crueby, are you going to use these as is? or use them as patterns?

Dave
As is - at least with some sanding and finishing. I dont have the equipment or knowledge for casting. There will be piping and check valves inside these housings that connect to the metal pump chamber in the center. The way that the housings and pipe sections fit together I'll be able to open them up for access - more on that when I get farther along on the check valves.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: pgp001 on April 17, 2021, 04:51:11 PM
Chris

Which slicer software are you using ?
I have just been printing some of the pipework for Agnes using Cura 4.8.0 on my Ender 3 V2 which I have just bought, but am wondering whether to try other slicers as well.

Your prints look to be coming out very well, it is going to be an impressive model.

Phil
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 17, 2021, 05:17:35 PM
Chris

Which slicer software are you using ?
I have just been printing some of the pipework for Agnes using Cura 4.8.0 on my Ender 3 V2 which I have just bought, but am wondering whether to try other slicers as well.

Your prints look to be coming out very well, it is going to be an impressive model.

Phil
This is the Prusa slicer, came with the printer. Don't know if the support other brand printers, worth a look. Works well.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: kvom on April 17, 2021, 10:25:22 PM
Pretty muchj the same Kvom - with any of the apps and thier tools, sure there are multiple ways to do it. The thing I struggled with at first was how to have the two pipes angle off but leaving that center area clear, thats why I did the cut and mirror.

Yes.  If you loft both ID/OD of both pipes you'd get solid blockage at the joint. 
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on April 18, 2021, 12:56:25 AM
Ahah....I see it all now.."It lays down 0.2mm tall layers of plastic at a time" ....

I couldn't visualise how the print head got down there in the V of the valley of the spool  :facepalm: ....it didn't!,  as the depth of the V was only 0.2mm tall on each horizontal pass  :ThumbsUp:

Must admit, the horizontal build lines in your image helped me  :Director:

[so for every 1" in spool height  approx 125 x   :wallbang: as horizontal deposit passes]
[6H:53m print time with 23.7% of time being the support structure  :ROFL:]

Carry on...no more interruptions from me [for a while]

Derek  :wine1:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 18, 2021, 01:17:10 AM
Ahah....I see it all now.."It lays down 0.2mm tall layers of plastic at a time" ....

I couldn't visualise how the print head got down there in the V of the valley of the spool  :facepalm: ....it didn't!,  as the depth of the V was only 0.2mm tall on each horizontal pass  :ThumbsUp:

Must admit, the horizontal build lines in your image helped me  :Director: .[so for every 1" in spool height, approx 125 horizontal deposit passes]

Carry on...no more interruptions [for a while] from me

Derek
By George (not Britnell) I think hes got it!   :Lol:

Yup, thats the key to how these 3D printers work, they lay down an entire layer, then either raise the printhead, or move the platform down, then put down the next layer. The thinner the layer/smaller the nozzle, the smaller those little steps get. For the liquid resin printers, the resolution is amazingly small, but you are dealing with smelly sticky liquids. There are also sintered powder printers the spread a layer of fine powder, melt the grains where the object is with a laser, then spread another layer of powder. All sorts of variations, quite amazing technologies. Years ago we used early versions of these printers (I think they were the liquid resin type) to make prototype parts for the inkjet printers we were developing - lots faster than having steel injection molds made/changed/remade/rechanged.
The parts I am printing were already in the 3D CAD model I made over the last couple years from the original builder blueprints, just had to save them out as .stl and bring them into the slicer program that came with the printer. That program generates the gcode that the printer uses, so all the layer and support material smarts is in the slicer, the printer just has to worry about the stepper motors, heaters, etc.Most of the rest of the model will be traditional machining from steel/brass/bronze, but these pump housings were just crying out for the printer.
 :cheers: :cheers:
Oh, and questions/interruptions/comments ALWAYS welcome! Reminds me of my favorite sign, that hung outside a bookstore in Kennebunkport Maine:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on April 18, 2021, 01:48:42 AM
OK...time has passed  :old:  [question :headscratch:  time open again] ...how flat and square are the spool piece flanges?

When any 2 are bolted together, do they sit as they should?

So reading backwards, there will be some water flow, but @ low pressure?
Would a Silicone type [Gasket in a tube] compress to provide an adequate seal?
Permatex market [152 gm tubes of RTV silicone] in an extensive range of colours....[stay away from fluroscent pink]  :Jester:

This type of material would appear to be a little easier to apply than punching out :hammerbash:  14, 256 bolt holes in 0.05mm thick gasket material

Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 18, 2021, 03:33:24 AM
OK...time has passed  :old:  [question :headscratch:  time open again] ...how flat and square are the spool piece flanges?

When any 2 are bolted together, do they sit as they should?

So reading backwards, there will be some water flow, but @ low pressure?
Would a Silicone type [Gasket in a tube] compress to provide an adequate seal?
Permatex market [152 gm tubes of RTV silicone] in an extensive range of colours....[stay away from fluroscent pink]  :Jester:

This type of material would appear to be a little easier to apply than punching out :hammerbash:  14, 256 bolt holes in 0.05mm thick gasket material

Derek
Wow - time flies when you're having fun!  Or as Kermit would say, Times Fun When You're Eating Flies!

Nope - these printed parts will not carry the water directly, just the brass central pump chamber will. Inside the plastic parts will be tubing to carry the water, as well as the sets of check valves to make the pumps work. Its really because of the check valves that I decided to do it that way. I hadn't even considered the gaskets that would be needed - oh my!   :hellno:

I'm going to make pipework to run down the straight sections, elbows/tees as needed to connect the water lines with the check valves and into the pump chambers. I've been changing my mind a lot on exactly where things will be and in what orientation or I'd put up the diagram, will do that this coming week when things settle down to a solid plan for more than an hour!   :stickpoke:

I have made up the housings/pipes to be able to come apart easily, even though they are all bolted together with a bazillion bolts, will put pictures of that up as well to show the tricks - maybe I can fool Penn and Teller with that.... Well, I doubt it, Teller is a pretty smart elf!   :happyreader:

Oh, and as for the flanges - they do seem to come out quite accurate to the design, have not measured any shrinkage or distortions, things line up quite well with this PLA. The surfaces of the flanges are nice and flat, though you can see the edges of the extruded paths, they are blended into each other well. The insides of the thicker walls are a pattern of wavy infills to keep them supported but reduce the material/print time. Not many areas like that on these parts, most of the walls are only a few lines thick anyway. Supposedly the material will absorb moisture, so the filament is stored in sealed bags between uses, and if they were to be used as actual pipe I'd seal the surfaces first - either thinned epoxy or varnish works well for that. The parts I make for the RC boats will get treated that way, as well as painted. Wet-sanding the parts works well, keeping the parts cool from the sanding as well as keeping the paper from clogging.


Lets see, I did get the new brass bar stock today, probably annoyed the delivery guy with a 42 pound mailing tube! I noticed that the end cap was missing from the tube, but the bar was still there. I wonder whose shipment of glass ornaments got squished when the bar speared them....   O:-)   Almost as good as the time that I ordered 5 bars of stainless steel - they came in separate mailing tubes (very thick cardboard with wood endcaps nailed on). Probably 20 to 30 pounds each. Could have smashed up a truckload if they rolled around on the corners! I do know that the UPS guy lost a fingernail - he tried carrying them all together up the driveway at once and they shifted.... Ouch!  I gave him advance warning of heavy orders after that so he could take that day off... 
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Jo on April 18, 2021, 04:22:35 PM
Lets see, I did get the new brass bar stock today, probably annoyed the delivery guy with a 42 pound mailing tube! I noticed that the end cap was missing from the tube, but the bar was still there. I wonder whose shipment of glass ornaments got squished when the bar speared them....   O:-)   Almost as good as the time that I ordered 5 bars of stainless steel - they came in separate mailing tubes (very thick cardboard with wood endcaps nailed on). Probably 20 to 30 pounds each. Could have smashed up a truckload if they rolled around on the corners! I do know that the UPS guy lost a fingernail - he tried carrying them all together up the driveway at once and they shifted.... Ouch!  I gave him advance warning of heavy orders after that so he could take that day off...

I had a 1m long piece of 2" diameter EN8 delivered by post: all they had done was rolled some brown paper round it and used lots of Sellotape to hold it on and the lady delivery driver asked what is it? I said "its a bashing stick" she said yes that is what my son thought it was and I had to stop him hitting his brother with it (the boys were about 3 and 5 sitting in the back of her car ::) )

Still following along  ;)

Jo
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 18, 2021, 05:35:16 PM
Lets see, I did get the new brass bar stock today, probably annoyed the delivery guy with a 42 pound mailing tube! I noticed that the end cap was missing from the tube, but the bar was still there. I wonder whose shipment of glass ornaments got squished when the bar speared them....   O:-)   Almost as good as the time that I ordered 5 bars of stainless steel - they came in separate mailing tubes (very thick cardboard with wood endcaps nailed on). Probably 20 to 30 pounds each. Could have smashed up a truckload if they rolled around on the corners! I do know that the UPS guy lost a fingernail - he tried carrying them all together up the driveway at once and they shifted.... Ouch!  I gave him advance warning of heavy orders after that so he could take that day off...

I had a 1m long piece of 2" diameter EN8 delivered by post: all they had done was rolled some brown paper round it and used lots of Sellotape to hold it on and the lady delivery driver asked what is it? I said "its a bashing stick" she said yes that is what my son thought it was and I had to stop him hitting his brother with it (the boys were about 3 and 5 sitting in the back of her car ::) )

Still following along  ;)

Jo


 :Lol:




Then they'll put a little part the size of a deck of cards in a w foot square box with maybe a small square of crumpled paper...




Great to have you along for the ride!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 18, 2021, 05:37:19 PM
Got a start on the other two pump chambers this morning, taking a side job now to make up some new plexi chip shields, the old ones were getting too scratched up to see through, one got dropped and broke.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 18, 2021, 06:46:19 PM
Finished with the new chip guard for the lathe - just a sheet of clear plexi bent in a 90 with a little heat from a torch, then cut an opening to let it fit over the cross slide end. Been using same setup for years, old one finally got too scratched to see through well when the task light was shining through it.

Here it is while turning the second pump chamber to shape. Behind the lathe you can see the first one, and the third one as it was in the chuck to rough in the base and drill the mounting holes on the mill. New shield doesn't show that well in the picture, but you can see the top/left edges pretty well. It extends down past the tailstock, is long enough to deflect the brass chips which like to fly in all directions. It rests on the cross slide, so it moves with the cutter.

(https://i.postimg.cc/K8ng76t7/IMG-9272.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dave Otto on April 18, 2021, 06:49:44 PM
 :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 18, 2021, 07:02:17 PM
For a great set  video describing the engines and the pumps, take a click over to the Cincinnati Triple Steam web site. They have a very simnilar engine and pump setup to the Holly engine I am modelling - there are a few minor differences, but the engines are following the same general design and were made by a different manufacturer.


http://cincinnatitriplesteam.org/gcww_videos.htm

I have not been to the Cincinnati pump museum, hoping to get there after all the Covid restrictions let them open again. I have toured the Bufallo pumps once, want to get back there again too.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: gary.a.ayres on April 18, 2021, 09:46:31 PM
These pump chambers look the business!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on April 19, 2021, 03:14:04 AM
Thanks for sharing, those 3 video's are excellent viewing  :hammerbash:

We had a thread in the last weeks on Why viewing is Dimensioning  or something

Certainly not the case with this Members work  :Lol: :Jester: :atcomputer: ...I mean how crazy can these projects be?

To be continued  :cheers: :popcorn:  :wine1:

Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: fumopuc on April 19, 2021, 07:32:40 AM
Hi Chris, very instructional videos are at this link. Thanks for it.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 19, 2021, 09:59:31 PM
Been a busy couple of days on the pump chambers, got the other two chambers turned and bored out...
(https://i.postimg.cc/MK2thWNk/IMG-9278.jpg)
Then moved over to the mill to drill the pattern of holes around the top rim for the seal retaining ring in the elf storage containers, um, I mean pump chambers...
(https://i.postimg.cc/Njb49RMY/IMG-9280.jpg)
With those holes all drilled, moved on to making the retaining rings from a smaller offcut bar. The bar was turned to diameter, bored through, and the flanges turned in for the first ring before drilling matching clearance holes in the rim:
(https://i.postimg.cc/sDYKzkCM/IMG-9281.jpg)
Then parted off the first one, ready to turn the flanges on for the second one...
(https://i.postimg.cc/VkzgkKzD/IMG-9282.jpg)
Over the last week or so I've also been bolting up all 87.3 gazillion of the fastenings for the pipes, valve chambers, and force chambers that I 3D printed. Here is the set:
(https://i.postimg.cc/1ztKp4nF/IMG-9273.jpg)
"But, um, wait you idiot... You need to put in the check valves and internal tubing!"  I can hear you yell at your screen.   :atcomputer:

No worries there - the top/bottom flange sections and one end of each pipe is actually made as a separate piece, so the sections can be unstacked/slid apart as needed for access to the insides:

(https://i.postimg.cc/DzMP5FLM/IMG-9276.jpg)
Here is a closer view of the way the flange comes apart, there is a lip on one side that mates with a recess on the flange:
(https://i.postimg.cc/jqJZgW8Q/IMG-9277.jpg)
This will (hopefully) give me enough access to the internals of the chambers/pipes to connect up the tubing/valves that will actually carry the water for the pumps. I am hoping to be able to pump water out/back into a container for demonstrations, but since that will not involve pumping into a pressurized system like the real ones, I shouldn't have to worry about the back pressures and force fluctuations that the real one did. These engines only ran at 10 to 20 RPM, but even so the volume per revolution was pretty high (nearly 1000 gallons per rev on the real engines). I am going to be running some tests on one of the pump chambers after the pipe flanges get added to determine the openings I need on the check valves and the tubing sizes, to let it pump freely. Depending on the results, I may be able to have the inlet water come in on just one side, and the outlet go out the other side of the system, which would make connecting everything up easier. If not, there will have to be inlets/outlets on both sides (inlet comes in from one end through the lower pipes, outlet goes out the other end through the upper pipes).


So, next steps - finish up the retaining rings, then will start on the pipe flanges and brackets that go on top of the pump cylinders - all metal, silver soldered onto the pump chambers.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: pgp001 on April 19, 2021, 10:27:57 PM
Very impressive, I like it  :ThumbsUp:

Phil
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: gary.a.ayres on April 19, 2021, 11:23:15 PM
Fabulous!

 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Craig DeShong on April 20, 2021, 03:48:18 AM
Still loving those printed parts Chris.  You keep this up and I’m going to need to investigate 3D printing.

BTW.... if you hear strange noises coming from your shop in the wee hours... and you seem to be missing some of those printed parts... I’d be looking for a still that the elves have bashed together and then squirreled  away in some dark corner. :DrinkPint:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: fumopuc on April 20, 2021, 06:24:32 AM
Hi Chris, I like these 3D printing some time very much.
I push the card into the printer, press the start bottom and go to bed.
Next morning if you wake up and enter the shop, the part is finished.
May be some day your shop elves will be able to do it in the same way.
In the evening you will put the drawing on the table, together with a piece of the right material and in the morning when you enter your shop again, the part is finished, laying  there beside the drawing at the table.
O.K., it does not match with the "Global Digitization"  it is more magic.
So may be no a real picture of our future.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on April 20, 2021, 02:29:50 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Chris, the pumps / piping parts look great. Smart idea with the slip joints for disassembly.

Craig, maybe Chris is not worried about a still so much now that the shop elves have access to all those joints (pipe or otherwise)  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 20, 2021, 02:40:57 PM
Hmmmm, now I'm scared to go see what the elves are up to!   :paranoia:

Before worrying about that, the latest thoughts were how I'm going to mill the openings for the pipe flanges and brackets in the sides of the pump chambers. Lets see, a jig block running this way to bolt onto that, then a block over there....   :thinking:
(https://i.postimg.cc/2SVgNgWR/Pump-Chamber.jpg)


Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on April 20, 2021, 04:30:52 PM
It looks like it already has its' hands up in surrender, in the pic!  :Lol:

Jig designer's dream for that job. The milling might be interesting too, wall depth in the oval cuts will vary a lot. You will probably blast through it as usual before I am done typing........ :cheers:   :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

BTW it may be wise to get the water hose ready in case you see shop elves  :smokin2:     

If there is enough pressure and flow, repeat offenders are unlikely.  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 20, 2021, 10:01:29 PM
So, after getting the water hose back from the shop elves and getting dried off.... 


Got the three pump chamber seal retaining rings finished up, turned the last one and did a cleanup pass on the side that was parted off.
(https://i.postimg.cc/HnqwVSzx/IMG-9283.jpg)
Then, after some part pondering (sort of like casting fondling, but not) and thinking on how to hold the chambers to cut the openings for the pipe flanges, I decided to go a fairly simple route and make an arbor to hold them with a 1" 5C collet in a square holder.
(https://i.postimg.cc/vZd7yND2/IMG-9284.jpg)
I had toyed with making a jig to hold them on the rotary table and do the cutting with small end mills, but that got too complicated for alignment so I went back to drilling two side by side holes and expanding them out with the boring head. The pipe that comes out of the chamber, as you can see in the CAD screen capture a couple posts ago, is round on the ends with a flat section in the center. The OD of the end arcs is .870", so too big to drill directly, and the two holes intersect since they are only 1/2" apart, so the boring head won out. I started by positioning the part and drilling two 3/8" holes a half inch apart.
(https://i.postimg.cc/8zBRzm6p/IMG-9285.jpg)
Then bored the first hole out to size, it started out as an interrupted cut due to the curve of the part, and again when the two holes intersected. The brass cuts very easy, so the interrupted cuts were no problem, was able to start out at a higher RPM at first but had to cut it back a bit as the boring head was offset at the larger diameters.

(https://i.postimg.cc/9F9PvhXq/IMG-9286.jpg)
Then moved over to the second hole and brought it up to the same size
(https://i.postimg.cc/9fmGRwdG/IMG-9287.jpg)
As you can see, the drilled holes go through the side wall, but the bored holes do not - I wanted to leave a ledge there to help position the flange that will be inserted and silver soldered. To keep from miscounting and lowering the head too much (which would be nasty as the cutter bottomed out), I put a heavy machinist parallel clamp on the mill column as a hard stop - its just on the frame of the column, not touching the leadscrew at all.
(https://i.postimg.cc/bYWHCJPh/IMG-9288.jpg)
So, for each chamber, I'll drill/bore through both sides, turning the square holder over to get at the other side, and am using the end of the holder as an index point on the end of the vise. The parts are marked where they are on the arbor, so I can swap parts and get them back to the same position again later - the pipe holes need to be the in the right orientation in relation to the holes in the bottom flange so things will line up with the valve chambers when bolted to the base. After all the holes are bored, I'll go back and use an end mill to connect the dots - taking out the little triangle of material left between the two holes, completing the openings. The arbor needs to stay in the collet through all this to make sure everything aligns.


After that, I can mill the slots in the sides of the chambers for the brackets that hold the arms, which will go up to the bottom of the engine bed plates. Then can start making the pipe flanges themselves, and the brackets. Going to be a while!!
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on April 20, 2021, 11:57:52 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Don1966 on April 21, 2021, 01:34:06 AM
Geeez Dog do you ever sleep? That’s some amazing work at an incredible rate. But you know .......I..............likeeeeee...... :Love:


  :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 21, 2021, 02:05:16 PM
Well, getting no work out of the shop elves today!  When they woke up this morning and looked out the window, they got all excited and ran out the door so they could build a Snow engine!

(https://i.postimg.cc/g0Y8nWN7/IMG-9290.jpg)
They remember ones like this at Cabin Fever
(https://i.postimg.cc/1zxZwsww/IMG-1845.jpg)
Normal people build snow men.... they build snow engines...   :facepalm2:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RReid on April 21, 2021, 03:02:06 PM
Are you sure they didn't 3D print all that?
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Bluechip on April 21, 2021, 03:32:15 PM
Hi Chris

I'm most intrigued by that solenoid motor.  :cartwheel:

I seem to have seen one very similar, maybe on the John Jenkins site (?).

Makes a refreshing change from all the 'pistoney' gubbins that infests this site ....  ;D  ;D  :paranoia:

Dave

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 21, 2021, 03:37:48 PM
Are you sure they didn't 3D print all that?
Maybe they collected pillows from around the neighborhood and shredded them...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 21, 2021, 03:39:32 PM
Hi Chris

I'm most intrigued by that solenoid motor.  :cartwheel:

I seem to have seen one very similar, maybe on the John Jenkins site (?).

Makes a refreshing change from all the 'pistoney' gubbins that infests this site ....  ;D ;D :paranoia:

Dave
I don't recall whose engine that is, good chance someone here remembers or its thiers! It is one of many I took pictures of at Cabin Fever.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on April 21, 2021, 05:24:05 PM
I don't think that Snow from cabin fever is going to melt though.....   :Lol:

 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Craig DeShong on April 21, 2021, 06:17:04 PM
I don't think that Snow from cabin fever is going to melt though.....   :Lol:

 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

No, but it will “melt our hearts!”
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 21, 2021, 08:25:41 PM
Still snowing outside, so a good day to play in the shops. Did a coupl emore sessions and have the four holes bored out in the first of the pump chambers. The flanges at the bottom of the holes is being left in, they will keep the pipe sections in place during silver soldering later, after squaring up the flat sides of the holes. For now, I am going to bore the same holes in the other two pump chambers, since the mill is all set up for that operation.
(https://i.postimg.cc/CLvHvfZm/IMG-9292.jpg)
Between sessions on the mill, I got coats of paint on all the 3D printed valve chambers/force chambers/pipes - this is the same iron color as was used on the frames. The shop elves approve of their new climbing jungle...

(https://i.postimg.cc/Gh3xJjp4/IMG-9291.jpg)'

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RonGinger on April 22, 2021, 12:30:10 AM
The solenoid engine is not- its an electric motor.  It was built by Joe Higgins of Portland Maine. So is the Snow engine in that photo. Joe does amazing work. Joe did a couple old electric motors, mostly copied form photos or old patent drawings.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 22, 2021, 12:43:27 AM
The solenoid engine is not- its an electric motor.  It was built by Joe Higgins of Portland Maine. So is the Snow engine in that photo. Joe does amazing work. Joe did a couple old electric motors, mostly copied form photos or old patent drawings.
I remember walking down the line of tables, stopping at his and going Oooohhhh!  Very well done!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Bluechip on April 22, 2021, 07:08:34 PM
Looks somewhat like a Froment motor  :thinking:

https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-energy-electricity-electric-motor-by-paul-gustave-froment-1815-1865-58401877.html

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 22, 2021, 09:54:20 PM
Continuing on today with boring the holes in the sides of the pump chambers - three of four holes done in chamber two. Looks just like the pictures I posted yesterday...

Also spent some time in Fusion designing up the check valve sets for them. Lots to work out, to make it so they can be assembled into the 3D printed housings and be able to get at the screws, room for seals, all that.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: mikehinz on April 23, 2021, 12:38:06 AM
Wow!  I don't know how I missed this build, but I've just read all the posts and I must say, I'm most impressed!  The complexity and build quality are simply astonishing!  I'll be carefully following along as you progress.  Again, fantastic work!

Mike.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 23, 2021, 12:45:28 AM
Wow!  I don't know how I missed this build, but I've just read all the posts and I must say, I'm most impressed!  The complexity and build quality are simply astonishing!  I'll be carefully following along as you progress.  Again, fantastic work!

Mike.


Thanks Mike!  Great to have you along. Maybe you were so focused on your Webster  you didn't look around.   :Lol:   plenty of time to catch up, this build is going to be going a ling time!


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: 90LX_Notch on April 23, 2021, 01:02:28 AM
Looking good Chris.

-Bob
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 23, 2021, 02:31:59 AM
Looking good Chris.

-Bob
Thanks Bob!   :cheers:

I got the design done for the check valves, and will print a prototype to confirm that it works, fits, and that I'll be able to get the fasteners in and tightened when in the housings. Should save a lot of time and metal if it turns out that there is an issue with the design - once I start making the real parts, it will be more mass production of each one so would not know of any problems till they were all made. Lots of bits that have to be assembled together in a small space.

More important, looks like middle of next week we are back to warm summer weather again! Couple days ago I mowed the lawn, then watched  it get covered in 4 inches of snow. The fun of New England weather!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on April 23, 2021, 04:09:03 AM
Chris...you earlier mentioned of the unique design and of the large number of check valves...this obviously was a considerably difficult solution to harness  :killcomputer:

If you have 100 .... :slap: 1000 gallons of pump displacement per revolution .......this equates to ~~ 3800l litre  :ThumbsUp: or 3.8 tonnes of water coming to a series of dead-head stops within the valving and pipework, hence the considerable size/voulme of the 3 expansion [fluid accumulators]

I suspected 90% of the banging/crashing noise in Part 1 Video was from downstairs [within the water elements] with the actual steam engines being a series of substantial  woosh......woosh......woosh noises only

Derek

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 23, 2021, 04:27:44 AM
Its even worse, its 1000 gallons, not 100.




I was watching the third of thier videos, turns out they mentioned that the films they had were silent, and they added the sound track from other engines, so hard to know what it really sounded like. Bummer on that!  Still, all that  water movement and thousands of check valves must have meant vibration and sound. In the plans it shows the check valves as T shapes with springs, some sort of seal material. Had to be sounds from that. I remember seeing a video of a giant steam engine running a armor plate rolling mill, might have been in the show Industrial Revelations, gives some sense of sound. The pumps ran at just 10 to 20 rpm, so no high speed whirring, but thats still a lot of moving metal to rumble. Must have been mesmerizing to watch five of these in a row all going, much more so than the little electric ones they use now. Little by comparison anyway.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 23, 2021, 04:12:41 PM
Glad I took the time to print a prototype set of the check valve parts - there was one piece that I forgot to work out how to assemble in place in the housings. Got that fixed, reprinting those two parts...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 23, 2021, 11:14:39 PM
Today got the last of the holes in the pump chambers bored, and started milling the flats that connect the holes:

(https://i.postimg.cc/FHtpy7TY/IMG-9294.jpg)
The rest of these will go a lot quicker than the boring did. After these flats are done, I'll lay out and start milling the slots for the brackets that go on the sides of the chambers (see the CAD rendering back several posts for a picture of that).

Weather today was decent, got out to the garage and replaced the old noisy/flickery/dim shop lights with new LED versions - LOTS brighter, and will work in cold weather a lot better too. Now just need to take a run over to the recycle place with the old tubes... Replaced the last couple of the old fluorescents in the basement too.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 24, 2021, 03:56:29 PM
With the pipe holes all milled, next step was to cut the slots for the side brackets to fit into. This went quickly, just three straight cuts per side, took as long to swap parts with all the little screws on the arbor as to make the cuts.
(https://i.postimg.cc/85C4chMj/IMG-9295.jpg)
Here are the three pump chambers so far
(https://i.postimg.cc/k4hcbBvw/IMG-9296.jpg)
Went through the bar stock shelves and found a perfect piece of flat stock for the verticals on the brackets:
(https://i.postimg.cc/q7wQpmtP/IMG-9297.jpg)
I'll get sets of those cut to rough length, along with pieces for the horizontal shelf on top, and start bolting them together for silver soldering.

Also I have been going round and round to figure out how to make the pipe extension/flanges that fit the oblong holes. Considered piecing them up from round and flat stock, but that would be a LOT of long flat seams to get soldered watertight. I dont have any flat bar thick enough or round bar close in size to the overall width (just one short bit of 1-3/8", would need another foot of that). I do have that nice big chunk of 2-1/4" roundbar that I got to make the chambers from. If I take short sections of that, stress relieve them, and cut them lengthwise in half, I'll get chunks perfect for making the parts from. It will take yet another jig to round the ends and leave the flats in the center, but that will be easy to figure out. Again, here is what the finished chambers need to look like (too bad they will be so hidden behind all the other pipework and valve chambers! )
(https://i.postimg.cc/2SVgNgWR/Pump-Chamber.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 24, 2021, 05:29:01 PM
And a little time with the band saw to make up six sets of Holly Pump Chamber Bracket Kits - lots of assembly required!
(https://i.postimg.cc/wTrzFV0Q/IMG-9298.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 25, 2021, 03:39:08 PM
Yesterday afternoon saw the bracket 'kits' drilled/tapped for small screws to hold them in place for silver soldering.
(https://i.postimg.cc/bwpk8rdZ/IMG-9299.jpg)
Got them assembled and clamped to the pump bodies to drill/tap a single hole in the center vertical fin (which was also notched to that hole would be shorter) to bolt the bracket to the body.
(https://i.postimg.cc/jScNjTJZ/IMG-9301.jpg)
After soldering (which will be done at the same time as the pipe sections are soldered in), the vertical fins will be milled back at an angle to the body - the left/center bracket in the previous picture has a line sketched on it showing that angle.

This morning I turned my attention to the pipe sections. Not having any flat stock thick enough, I took some short lengths of the 2-1/4" bar that the pump chambers were made from and sawed (sawned? sawneded? sawed!) in them in half which gives just enough stock to make the oblong section sof the pipes, as well as an extension that will go through the pipe on the valve body and bolt to the check valve assembly (to be made later). The ends of the halves were also sawed off to cut down on milling time.

(https://i.postimg.cc/c4qf9XSM/IMG-9302.jpg)
To hold them for milling, I made an arbor with a 10-32 center hole and another one 1/2" to one side (the arcs on the oblong are 1/2" on centers). Now I am drilling the holes in the blanks (left of next photo) so they can be bolted to the arbor on the rotary table (right of next photo). With this setup I can mill the profile of one end of each to fit the pump chamber openings, and the other ends to clear the openings in the valve housings. Lotsa swarf and crank turning for the next couple days!
(https://i.postimg.cc/kXxKkKMr/IMG-9303.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Jo on April 25, 2021, 04:17:53 PM
 :popcorn: Its amazing what can be made by soldering bits together  :popcorn:

Jo
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 26, 2021, 04:05:03 PM
:popcorn: Its amazing what can be made by soldering bits together  :popcorn:

Jo
Pretty much the way patterns for castings are made, except they usually used wood and glue!   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 26, 2021, 04:12:24 PM
Using the arbor jig thingy made last time, I started in on shaping the ends of the blanks that go into the opening in the pump chambers. First took the sides to width, same distance out from center on each side (easy with rotary table, take both sides down with same settings)

(https://i.postimg.cc/26pxtX04/IMG-9304.jpg)
Then centered the table front to back, and took the first end down till it met the sides
(https://i.postimg.cc/SsWGb7PH/IMG-9306.jpg)
then swapped the blank around and did the same on the other end. Here is a test fit of the chamber on the end
(https://i.postimg.cc/brp9yScr/IMG-9307.jpg)
And a view from inside the chamber, showing how the part rests up against the shoulder left on the chamber opening. The holes in the part are still small, to fit the arbor screws, will take them out to final diameter after the other end of the part is milled.
(https://i.postimg.cc/D06d8fng/IMG-9308.jpg)
So far I have three of the parts to this stage, three more to go, then will start on the other ends, which go into the valve chamber pips. There also needs to be a flange added for bolting the pipes together.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: EricB on April 26, 2021, 08:08:20 PM
 :popcorn:

That's a lot of brass! I was wondering how these pumps were going to work after boring holes through the sides of the cylinders. I think I can see now that the piston just displaces the liguid in the vessel rather than forcing it down a bored cylinder. Is that correct?

Eric
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 26, 2021, 09:33:52 PM
:popcorn:

That's a lot of brass! I was wondering how these pumps were going to work after boring holes through the sides of the cylinders. I think I can see now that the piston just displaces the liguid in the vessel rather than forcing it down a bored cylinder. Is that correct?

Eric


Exactly right. The pump chamber is just like the little hand operated boiler feed pumps we use on model boilers, a simple ram in a chamber to draw in and force out water. On the hand pumps, there is normally a single set of check valves at the end of the chamber. On this pump, there are two sets, one on each side of the chamber. The ram goes through a seal at the top, then the chamber flares out inside, so its not making contact down the length like a piston. There are three pumps, one under each piston of the engine above, and the pumps are single acting. When running, the action of the three overlap, each in a sine wave, so the final output is closer to a straight line. Not straight, but close to it, and the air pressure at the tops of the force chambers helps even it out. The videos from Cincinnati that I linked to several posts back do a great job showing animation of it all.


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on April 26, 2021, 10:48:58 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on April 26, 2021, 11:28:55 PM
Are you going to set the axis of the pump chambers up in the mill so the gusset lines [edges/sides/tops] are in the horizontal plane, then simply slab mill them to the desired angle? [after being silver soldered?.

Derek ..[sorry  :facepalm: my face angle shown is out a bit.......but you get the drift  :ROFL: ]
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 27, 2021, 12:05:49 AM
Are you going to set the axis of the pump chambers up in the mill so the gusset lines [edges/sides/tops] are in the horizontal plane, then simply slab mill them to the desired angle? [after being silver soldered?.

Derek ..[sorry  :facepalm: my face angle shown is out a bit.......but you get the drift  :ROFL: ]
Not totally sure what you mean?  The pipe sections are horizontal and straight across one side to the other, at same level as the pipes coming out of the valve chambers. So, everything is square to everything else. Other than being rounded on the sides, at least. The chambers were held square to the mill by thier bases, the openings make it look like they are on an angle since they go through a round and tapered area on the chambers.


Does that make sense? I can add more pictures if not.


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 27, 2021, 12:17:10 AM

This should clarify what I'm making - a side and top view of the finished pump chamber. The part I'm making now is highlighted in blue.
(https://i.postimg.cc/9FZHNrCS/Image11.jpg)
With the corner view
(https://i.postimg.cc/2SVgNgWR/Pump-Chamber.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on April 27, 2021, 12:29:45 AM
No, the 3 gussets on each side of each pump chamber are the supporting elements for the upstairs weight

The outer face of each of these sets of gussets is not a vertical line, each face tapers back into the body of the pump chamber

Look at my mockup, you can see your BLUE line just below my YELLOW line [in the approx horizontal plane]

Let us see the end elevation view [as seen] of the RED arrow

Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 27, 2021, 12:56:51 AM
Hi Derek,
Sorry, i've been working on the pipes all day, and my brain got stuck thinking about them!

Yes, on the brackets, the gussets are completely vertical, but the outer face does taper back to the pump body at a 15 degree angle. All three of the vertical gussets have the same angle, which makes them easier for me to mill.  Here is the other side view:
(https://i.postimg.cc/2yCnR1gw/Image14.jpg)
What I am planing to do is to mount the pump chambers back onto the jig I used to mill the slots - that jig is still in the collet block, and is marked for the which face of the pumps goes to that side of the jig, so I can put them back on square to the collet block again. Then, I'll clamp the collet block at a 15 degree angle and run the mill down the gussets  to give them the angle. Should be easy to do, probably have to do the last little bit where the side gussets meet the body by hand since the pump body is on a curve there.The jig will also let me clamp the soldered body upright and square so that I can drill the holes in the tops of the brackets where the vertical struts to the engine blocks go. That jig is getting a lot of work on these parts! Trying to line the bodies up without it would have been really tough.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on April 27, 2021, 01:08:32 AM
Yep.......

That's exactly how I assumed you would achieve & complete this multiple machining function... as you say the Jig :hammerbash:  is getting a multiple of uses 

Derek  :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 27, 2021, 04:04:30 PM
Moved on to milling the other ends of the pipe sections, using the same jig as before to hold the parts. Since this end is longer I had to switch to a longer-flute end mill, fortunately had picked up some of them this past winter. This end is a little smaller than the first one but the same shape, it has to fit inside the opening in the valve housing. A flange for bolting it up will be added later. Here it is with sides taken in and first end rounded over:

(https://i.postimg.cc/25p2M4NW/IMG-9309.jpg)
And the second end
(https://i.postimg.cc/FKjD47hB/IMG-9312.jpg)
First one set in place in the pumnp chamber and with the valve housing too:
(https://i.postimg.cc/B64NQ46Q/IMG-9313.jpg)
The end that goes into the valve housing will be trimmed back a little, and the holes through will be enlarged for full water flow. There will be a set of drilled/tapped holes at the valve end to bolt it to the check valve housing (that part of things will be shown later, it was what I had 3D printed a prototype of to make sure it would all fit and be accessible for attaching it all together).
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: scc on April 27, 2021, 08:30:26 PM
Chris,  Every time you post on this project I am in awe and want to comment but cannot keep saying "WOW", etc, so will refrain from posting replies. I am following closely and quietly :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :cheers:       terry
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 27, 2021, 08:39:21 PM
Chris,  Every time you post on this project I am in awe and want to comment but cannot keep saying "WOW", etc, so will refrain from posting replies. I am following closely and quietly :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :cheers:       terry
Great to have you along Terry, there are plenty of other builds on the forum I do the same thing with!   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on April 27, 2021, 09:50:23 PM
Pump assembly is looking great Chris!  :cheers:  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Craig DeShong on April 27, 2021, 11:28:33 PM
Chris,  Every time you post on this project I am in awe and want to comment but cannot keep saying "WOW", etc, so will refrain from posting replies. I am following closely and quietly :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :cheers:       terry

Ok Terry, I’ll say it for you:  WOW !  :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steam guy willy on April 28, 2021, 12:13:34 AM
Hi Chris, this is looking really good ..amazing and you do work very quickly. can I borrow some of your Genes  ?!! as it takes me ages to make my models  !!!

Willy
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: gunna on April 28, 2021, 09:40:21 AM
I'm with Terry and Craig (above). Think I will just shutup and watch!
Ian.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 28, 2021, 01:34:04 PM
Thanks very much everyone, much appreciated!  This is a big project, going to be at it for quite a while with all the details that I want to include in it. At first look I'd see the scope of it, and run the other way, but like an elephant sandwich, one bite at a time!
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: mklotz on April 28, 2021, 03:33:47 PM
One of the most important mental disciplines to develop in our hobby is the ability to get as stimulated and excited about making one perfect part, no matter how small, as you would when the project is finished and running.

I'm still working on that; self-discipline has never been my strong suit (just ask my wife). :-)

Like many others, I tune in every day for the next episode but seldom comment.  Keep up the build log; like your others, it will become an icon for future builders.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RReid on April 28, 2021, 03:47:01 PM
Quote
One of the most important mental disciplines to develop in our hobby is the ability to get as stimulated and excited about making one perfect part, no matter how small, as you would when the project is finished and running.

That's very true. I was just commenting to my wife yesterday about how I now enjoy making each individual part for it's own sake and not being always so impatient to see the bigger project finished. That may be a combination of aging and the nature of this activity. Anyway, I'm not sure I could sustain that attitude over the course of a project with the scope of yours, Chris, but you've already well demonstrated that you can!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Don1966 on April 28, 2021, 09:07:11 PM
Outstanding work Dog........  :Love:



 :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 29, 2021, 12:04:18 AM
One of the most important mental disciplines to develop in our hobby is the ability to get as stimulated and excited about making one perfect part, no matter how small, as you would when the project is finished and running.

I'm still working on that; self-discipline has never been my strong suit (just ask my wife). :-)

Like many others, I tune in every day for the next episode but seldom comment.  Keep up the build log; like your others, it will become an icon for future builders.


Very well put. In addition to having a high standard for accepting a part, its important to know when you are getting a little tired and to walk away from the shop for a break. I've always struggled with both, getting better over time. Sometimes when I stall on a project and lose interest, I'll look back at early parts and realize that I don't like something, and decide to either remake or improve it. Had a partly rigged ship model like that once, realized finally that the reason I stopped working on it was that the thread was too thick on the shrouds, making it look chunky. Bit the bullet, stripped it back and redid it, that made all the difference and kept at it. I still have parts that I settle for but am not thrilled with, thats a tough discipline to master! But, I try to raise the bar a bit each time. Not always successful, but its a goal. Chocolate chip cookies are a good reward incentive!


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 29, 2021, 06:27:10 PM
Yesterday I got the last of the narrower ends milled down on the pipe sections, this morning got the holes drilled to attach them to the check valve bodies. Still need to tap them.
(https://i.postimg.cc/02ZcK2ZF/IMG-9315.jpg)
Then got started on milling out the insides of the pipe sections, plunge cutting with a 3/8" end mill after drilling in three places 1/4".
(https://i.postimg.cc/cLHTRybH/IMG-9318.jpg)
The end mill doesnt quite reach all the way through, but thats fine since I dont want to hit the vise bottom. Finished up with cuts from the other ends - not critical if there is a slight step where they join, its just the inside of a low-flow water pipe after all.After all of them are hollowed out, I think things are ready to silver solder all the parts on the pump bodies. I need to decide if the parts can all go on in one heat, or if it will take two per pump. I am guessing two to get good coverage all the way around - if so, I'll attach one bracket and one pipe section in first heat, other bracket and pip in second. May need to wait a day or two for the weather to be good enough to get out in the driveway, got some rainstorms and lightning rolling by today and tomorrow, Saturday is looking decent out in the current fore-guestimate-cast.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 30, 2021, 03:13:25 PM
A cold blustery day outside today, so going to wait on silver soldering the pump chambers and skip ahead to prepping stock for the check valve array. The bandsaw got a workout this morning, next need to trim the diameter down to fit the printed housings. Pics later...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 30, 2021, 05:02:08 PM
Picture of the prototype check valve assembly and real parts start - prototype on left is in several sections, two that hold the inlet and outlet valve balls (5 per section), and top/bottom sections to adapt the wider plates to narrower copper pipes. Bit more complex than maty be needed otherwise, but these have to be able to be assembled inside the printed valve/force housings with pipes leading in and out. The pump chambers are 1" diameter with 2" stroke, so thats a fair amount of water to move in and out. So, getting started with the perimeter holes, then will move to the lathe to take the outsides to size and bore the center chambers on the thicker pieces. There are 6 of these assemblies to make overall.

(https://i.postimg.cc/pdbbmDfV/IMG-9319.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Roger B on April 30, 2021, 05:07:40 PM
Splendid  :praise2:  :praise2: those pump chambers are tending towards jewellery   :ThumbsUp: :wine1:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 30, 2021, 05:13:08 PM
Splendid  :praise2: :praise2: those pump chambers are tending towards jewellery   :ThumbsUp: :wine1:
Maybe in appearance, they would make a very heavy ring!!   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on April 30, 2021, 06:14:18 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

be sure to take a break periodically while working on all the check valve bits. You wouldn't want a dose of valvitis, after all. :Lol: :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on April 30, 2021, 06:27:20 PM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

be sure to take a break periodically while working on all the check valve bits. You wouldn't want a dose of valvitis, after all. :Lol: :cheers:
Sounds nasty!   :Lol:   

I did have a case of de quervain's tendinitis a couple years ago, basically like carpal tunnel but in the base of the thumb, brought on by too much time on the lathe and mill. Resolved well with a shot and treatment by the ortho specialist, but I do take more breaks now.  30+ years on a keyboard with no issues, and the mill got me after retirement!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 01, 2021, 08:15:52 PM
This morning more snow on the ground, so I continued on with the blanks for the check valves, got the rest of them drilled for the rim bolts and most of them taken down to finished diameter.
Then, this afternoon warmed up pretty well, around 60F and light breeze, so I set up out in the driveway with the torch and got the first round of silver soldering done on the pump chambers:
(https://i.postimg.cc/KcLSsCvY/IMG-9320.jpg)
The way the angles worked out, I can do one bracket and one pipe section at a time. Going to let them cool for a while (lot of mass in them) and then give them a nice long soak in the pickle solution (Sparex 2) to clean them up again. Tomorrow is looking like another decent day, so I should be able to do the other sides then. It may take one extra heat to do the tops on the brackets, have to wait and see after they are cleaned up if I was able to get that joint done as well on the first go-round.I started out with a medium-large nozzle on the torch, and that worked but was taking a long time to get the center hot, so for the second two I switched to the largest nozzle that torch will take - that went much better, hot well within the time range of the flux and flowing well. That first one may need more solder on the top side of the pipe flange, not sure if it flowed around as far as it did on the others. These kinds of parts really need the bigger type torches, I have a 20# propane tank driving a Seivert handle that takes different nozzles, plus a roofers torch that is even bigger for the larger boilers. A small-tank hardware store type propane or Mapp torch would never put out enough BTUs for these larger parts, or even a medium sized copper boiler.So, tinight the pumps get a night at the spa in the pickle solution, I'm going to be baking a new batch of dark chocolate chip mint cookies with the shop elves!   :stir:    :wine1:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on May 01, 2021, 08:22:46 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 02, 2021, 02:03:52 PM
Another round of soldering this morning, if the rain holds off I can get the bracket tops this afternoon.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 02, 2021, 05:26:40 PM
While waiting for the pump chambers to finish swimming laps in the pickle solution, i've started taking the last of the check valve discs down to finished diameter. These are the top lids. They are too thin to stick out of the chuck to turn one end at a time like the other discs, and thier holes are threaded, so I bolted them to the bottom chamber discs and chucked those up with the top lid sticking out:
(https://i.postimg.cc/FRmdBzYx/IMG-9322.jpg)
so that it could be turned to size and have the faces trued up

(https://i.postimg.cc/26wbRYvN/IMG-9323.jpg)
Then started in drilling/boring the top/bottom plates for the water inlet/outlet holes. Now, if I was thinking ahead properly, I would have left them bolted to the bottom discs and bored through both at once. Didn't think of that till just now, so they are being done separately.

(https://i.postimg.cc/nLq92Bhz/IMG-9324.jpg)
Once all the center holes are done, I'll start in on the bottom chambers, boring them out on one side to leave an opening on one side that goes almost out to the rim holes - this chamber will let the water flow from the inlet pipe out to the ring of check valve openings in the next chamber up. It will make more sense after the next couple parts are made and I can show the stack - there is the bottom chamber to feed the inlet check valve, which bolts to the end of the pump chamber pipe. Then above that is a outlet check valve chamber, with the top lid on top of that, which leads to the outlet pipe. The check valve bone connects to the, lid bone.....  :Lol:   Okay, now get THAT song out of your head!   :LittleDevil:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 02, 2021, 08:32:55 PM
This afternoon got in a couple of soldering sessions on the pump chambers before and between the rain showers. Think that should be the last needed on them, will know for sure after the last two cool and go for another swim...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: propforward on May 03, 2021, 02:45:05 PM
I am just happily following along, with nothing to add but admiration. I like your brazement. Or is it a solderment?  :thinking:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 03, 2021, 04:07:42 PM
I am just happily following along, with nothing to add but admiration. I like your brazement. Or is it a solderment?  :thinking:
Solderizementizing?  Whatever it's called, the joints looked like they flowed all the way around, happy with that. Got them cleaned up and ready to mill the brackets to final shape this afternoon. Clear weather this morning so it was a good time to mow the lawn then sit out on the porch to read. Clouds are moving back in, supposed to rain again this afternoon, so will wander back into the shop after lunch.

 :cheers:
 
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 03, 2021, 07:27:43 PM
Catching up on progress from yesterday, had started boring out the lower manifold and middle valve chambers on the lathe while waiting for the pump chambers to clean up in the pickle bath:
(https://i.postimg.cc/g2HGpLWw/IMG-9325.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/TY8xWJ2L/IMG-9326.jpg)
So, this afternoon, when the rains moved back in and got too chilly to sit out on the porch and read/nap, I got the brackets milled to shape on the pump chambers. Started with taking them to width - the bar stock I used for them was a little oversize, and waiting till now to take the stock to width evens out any alignment issues with the soldering process. In this picture the back gusset and top flange are down to size, middle and front gussets are still at rough size.

(https://i.postimg.cc/RhtzDNdZ/IMG-9327.jpg)
and here they are all down to width
(https://i.postimg.cc/SQYqsv4b/IMG-9329.jpg)
Then used a protractor to set the 15 degree angle on the part
(https://i.postimg.cc/TwpxnkWm/IMG-9330.jpg)
to set up for milling the angle into the gussets
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZqfZBk04/IMG-9331.jpg)
Here are a couple shots of the pump chambers with the shaping done
(https://i.postimg.cc/W4pT1pN5/IMG-9332.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Qtw3mppz/IMG-9334.jpg)
So, looks like they are all done and ready for some paint and installing.... Nope! Still need to tap the holes in the ends of the pipe sections, and drill/tap the holes in the tops of the brackets to take the mounting bolts from the bars that sit on them. Probably should also run a tap into the top seal ring mounting holes to make sure no grit is left in them from the soldering. And a couple spots on the solder need some sanding/filing to smooth out some bumps and drips of solder. May also need to trim the ends of the pipe sections, but they should be good as is, will know when the check valve chambers get far enough along to test fit.  Lots still to go on these parts!

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on May 04, 2021, 12:20:23 AM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Don1966 on May 04, 2021, 03:33:48 AM
Dog you just amaze me……… :Love:


 :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 04, 2021, 03:42:39 AM
Dog you just amaze me……… :Love:


 :drinking-41:
Don


Thanks Don!   I'm waiting for you to come over and polish these pump parts....  :Lol:   Too late, they'll be painted by the time you get up here!


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on May 04, 2021, 06:25:29 AM
Well, Chris, you get more done in one relaxing read/nap day afternoon than I get done in two weeks!
 
The suite of parts sure look nice sitting there all in a row!   :popcorn: :popcorn:

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 04, 2021, 02:05:12 PM
Well, Chris, you get more done in one relaxing read/nap day afternoon than I get done in two weeks!
 
The suite of parts sure look nice sitting there all in a row!   :popcorn: :popcorn:

Kim
Shows the power of the nap. And the chocolate chip cookie.
 :DrinkPint:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Brian Rupnow on May 04, 2021, 02:57:28 PM
Chris--I'm following along, amazed at your energy and machining capabilities. Keep up the good work.---Brian
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 04, 2021, 08:33:26 PM
Thanks Brian!  More time spent doing errands and putting together new shelves for the wood shop than time on this model today, but I did get the holes drilled in the tops of the side brackets. Not enough height to put the collet in the vise in normal position, so I set up the larger vise on its side:
(https://i.postimg.cc/fbNkQsnT/IMG-9335.jpg)
Get them tapped, then I think it will be time to get the pump chambers painted!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 05, 2021, 07:04:55 PM
With the pump chambers all shaped, and the blanks for the check valves turned to OD and thier chambers bored into the center, time to mill in the flats on the outside of the inlet chambers for where they will bolt to the pipes on the pump chambers. More assembly-line milling, getting the cutter depth set then going through all the parts.
(https://i.postimg.cc/JhrZG5Xj/IMG-9336.jpghttps://i.postimg.cc/JhrZG5Xj/IMG-9336.jpg)
Then drilled the holes for the mounting bolts, and relieved the inside where the screw heads will land on the inside wall. Here is the first one test fit on a pump chamber:
(https://i.postimg.cc/mrmMM13J/IMG-9337.jpg)
There will be a thin rubber gasket to seal around that connection, as well as between the check valve layers. Next will be to cut the openings in the flats just milled for the water to flow through, then can start cutting the valve ball seats in the bottoms of the chambers. There will be posts next to the valve seats to keep the balls from moving sideways too far.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: kuhncw on May 05, 2021, 07:26:37 PM
Very nice work, Chris.

Chuck
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on May 05, 2021, 09:20:41 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Better lock those assemblies in a cupboard after hours or they may be full of Elfensteiner stubby  empties in the morning!   :Lol: :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 05, 2021, 09:46:44 PM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Better lock those assemblies in a cupboard after hours or they may be full of Elfensteiner stubby  empties in the morning!   :Lol: :cheers:
With the pipes out each side, its funny to watch the elves try and drink from it like a mug - giant dribble glasses!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 05, 2021, 09:47:44 PM
Very nice work, Chris.

Chuck
Thanks Chuck!

Got a coat of paint on the pump chambers, really look different than the raw brass. Pics tomorrow after it cures up.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 08, 2021, 04:39:54 PM
Not much to show the last few days, lots of drilling/tapping holes in the check valve chambers... Got them all done finally, ready to start making the fittings for the top/bottoms of them that will attach them to the pipes between them for inlet/outflow. And all the drilling/tapping required there!
(https://i.postimg.cc/DzPHLKw8/IMG-9339.jpg)
The check valve chambers each have four balls for increasing the flow possible. Had to put posts (stainless screws) between the holes to keep the balls in position. There are two sets of check valves, one either side of the pump chambers, just like on the original engine, for maximum capacity - going to be tedious putting them all together! The top connection to the pipe has to go in first, then the top cap will bolt to that, then the inlet check valve can be bolted to the pump chamber pipe, then all the sections get long screws through to bolt all of them together, followed by the connection to the inlet pipe at the bottom. I'm sure that all makes no sense, will take pictures of the sequence when all that happens in another week or so. For now, a big pile of parts, with more to come for the top/bottom connections!

Also, got some paint on the pipe chambers:
(https://i.postimg.cc/FRFqxnYG/IMG-9338.jpg)
The frame legs on one side will have to come off to get it all assembled, since the pipe sections between the housings are already bolted on - the shop elves drew the line at crawling between all the parts with a small wrench to put in all 3.8 million bolts/nuts.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: tvoght on May 08, 2021, 05:29:05 PM
Chris, Don't get me wrong, your work has always been outstanding, but I'm sure I detect your finishes getting even better!   --Tim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 08, 2021, 06:04:50 PM
Chris, Don't get me wrong, your work has always been outstanding, but I'm sure I detect your finishes getting even better!   --Tim
Been doing some tweaking on the gobs and backlash adjusters, also put in a new insert, which helps. Still learning about lathe and feed speeds, just going to have to keep practicing! Darn, gotta make more parts...  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 08, 2021, 07:40:49 PM
And this afternoon started in on the next batch of parts for the check valves - these will become the inlets/outlets on the outer cap plates, connecting the check valves to the horizontal pipes. The pipes will have Tees (normal plumbing ones, using household copper tube) with flat plates soldered to the T to bolt to these pieces. These pieces will be bored down the center, not all the way through though, with an opening on the side to interface with the T.
(https://i.postimg.cc/vmVt978T/IMG-9340.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on May 08, 2021, 11:32:50 PM
Very nice pile of parts there, Chris!  Looking forward to seeing them all come together! :)   :popcorn: :popcorn:

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on May 09, 2021, 11:30:34 AM
When the pressurised side of a simple water system leaks,  we can tap  :killcomputer: the check valve ball into it's seat........to get a seal  :ThumbsUp:
 
When a complex water system with multiple check valves leaks, and each valve with multiple check elements  :Doh:  :facepalm:  :shrug:  :lolb:

Good luck  :ROFL:

Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 09, 2021, 03:18:55 PM
When the pressurised side of a simple water system leaks,  we can tap  :killcomputer: the check valve ball into it's seat........to get a seal  :ThumbsUp:
 
When a complex water system with multiple check valves leaks, and each valve with multiple check elements  :Doh: :facepalm: :shrug: :lolb:

Good luck  :ROFL:

Derek
Very true. On the original machines there were over a thousand valves to get the volume, if a few stuck they would not lise that much. On my model there are four per section, 48 total. Much more chance for failure than ony Weir pump with two. At least in this case if one somehow sticks it will still pump some, good enough for demos, till I can bribe a shop elf to go in there with a little hammer.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Roger B on May 09, 2021, 06:43:14 PM
Wonderful as ever  :praise2:  :praise2:  :wine1:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 09, 2021, 07:09:07 PM
Wonderful as ever  :praise2: :praise2: :wine1:
Thanks Roger!    Been toiling away on drilling/tapping the holes in the inlet/outlet blocks, doing a couple blocks at a time then going off to do other things. Not quite as bad as doing crawler tracks!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RReid on May 09, 2021, 07:40:05 PM
So, the elves don't work on Sundays?
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 09, 2021, 08:17:01 PM
So, the elves don't work on Sundays?
I think they're off at the squirrel races...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 09, 2021, 11:23:30 PM
So, the elves don't work on Sundays?
I think they're off at the squirrel races...


They must have hit the trifecta, came back home singing, big bag of shiny pennies...   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on May 10, 2021, 02:37:18 AM
Hoo boy, could be a wild time in the old town tonight! I'd get the shop elves on the compressor / air needle scalers tomorrow, to clean up silver solder flux or something. It's an effective hangover cure....... :Lol:

Remember, deaf shop elves don't hear beer delivery trucks!  :o

Pump parts progress looks great Chris!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 10, 2021, 04:49:14 PM
Woke the shop elves early today and sent them into the shop to finish dilling/boring/tapping out all the pieces for the inlets/outlets on the check valve arrays...
(https://i.postimg.cc/7ZNvSK0L/IMG-9341.jpg)
The pile o parts, blocks ready for silver soldering the side tabs to:
(https://i.postimg.cc/wjz8tCtP/IMG-9343.jpg)
After soldering, the tabs and blocks will be drilled through the side for the water and mounting screws. The blocks will be screwed to the round caps/plates with some thin rubber gasket for a seal.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 11, 2021, 04:13:27 PM
Yesterday saw the side tabes silver soldered onto the connector blocks for the check valves. Today I bored the holes in the sides, and skimmed the face where they will meet the flanges on the pipes.
(https://i.postimg.cc/T3RCbyFX/IMG-9344.jpg)
Bore, skim, repeat...
(https://i.postimg.cc/XvqL2RnH/IMG-9345.jpg)
Then, on todays episode of Confuse-An-Elf, they are trying to figure out why the local bees sent them a stack of their poker chips!
(https://i.postimg.cc/DwB5Pv34/IMG-9346.jpg)
These are the blanks for the flanges that will be soldered to the plumbing Tee's - did not have any flat stock the right width, so I took a length of hex bar that has been sitting on the rack a few years waiting for a use, and cut some chips off the end. They will be bored to fit on the tees, soldered on, then the top/bottom edges will be milled off to form the flanges.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: ddmckee54 on May 11, 2021, 04:18:47 PM
You must grow some BIG bees in that area if those are their poker chips.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 11, 2021, 04:20:19 PM
You must grow some BIG bees in that area if those are their poker chips.

Don
And you wonder why I stay inside in the shop!   :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on May 11, 2021, 08:36:11 PM
Attached is a pic of the two biggest bees I ever saw.

Parts look great Chris.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: gary.a.ayres on May 11, 2021, 11:08:52 PM

(https://i.postimg.cc/wjz8tCtP/IMG-9343.jpg)


Smaug should be sitting on top of this lot. Where is he?

Great progress ongoing with the build!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 11, 2021, 11:53:51 PM

(https://i.postimg.cc/wjz8tCtP/IMG-9343.jpg)


Smaug should be sitting on top of this lot. Where is he?

Great progress ongoing with the build!
Smaug is in the living room, was watching TV but fell asleep...
(https://i.postimg.cc/gjRbxMjs/IMG-9350.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: gary.a.ayres on May 12, 2021, 08:39:42 AM
I thought he'd be around somewhere.

I hope you took advantage of the situation and managed to get your hands on the brass gold while the dragon slumbered...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 12, 2021, 08:27:55 PM
This morning I took the Tee fittings and the hex flanges outside to silver solder them together. Redid the first couple after realizing that I had forgotten to line up the flats on the hex the way they needed to be.   :wallbang: Then got them a soak in the pickle solution and a little wire brushing, before starting to shape the flanges down.

(https://i.postimg.cc/SRYJfZW3/IMG-9351.jpg)
On the back right, is one as silver soldered. The one in the mill vise has had the excess pipe sticking through the hex milled off, and the face of the hex section skimmed off too. The one on the back left has had the points of the hex milled off, making the whole thing narrow enough to fit through the 3D printed pipes and housings to where they will mate up with the check valve assemblies. So, 1-1/2 of them done, 10-1/2 more to go! (there are two of these per check valve, 2 sets per pump, so 12 in all).
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on May 12, 2021, 10:33:49 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 14, 2021, 03:10:21 PM
Getting close to finishing up the check valve side of things. The last of the metal fabrication was to drill/tap all the holes in the Tee flanges and the top/bottom connector blocks, then cut a batch of threaded rod for the long studs to hold all the parts together.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZnbFJSFh/IMG-9352.jpg)
So, here are the metal parts that make up one of the six check valve assemblies:
(https://i.postimg.cc/vHmLjGZr/IMG-9355.jpg)
Still need to cut out a batch of gaskets for all the mating surfaces - I have a sheet of .030 thick viton rubber for that. Here is one of the check valves as assembled (no gaskets yet)

(https://i.postimg.cc/L4D3NJ24/IMG-9354.jpg)
The lowest pipe is the water inlet. Above that is a shallow dish that distributes the water to the inlet check valve chamber, with four ball bearing check openings. That is bolted to the end of one of the pipes leading into the central pump chamber (there will be one of these assemblies either side of the pump chamber). Above the inlet chamber is the outlet check valve chamber, with four more ball bearings/holes. That has a cap with the outlet pipe. Note that the outlet pipe is on the outside of the assembly - they did this since the legs of the lower frame are at an angle, and the legs go between the pipes.
And here is a view of one set of parts for one of the three pumps, including the 3D printed housings that go around the check valve assemblies. The layout of those housings determined the layout of the check valve parts, and how they bolt together, so that things could be assembled into the housings - took a lot of playing around in the 3D CAD app to figure all that out.

(https://i.postimg.cc/fy87LrBS/IMG-9353.jpg)
The housings are in two pieces, top and bottom, with the flanges made so that the upper piece will just sit down on top of the lower piece - the top flange for the lower piece is separate, and already bolted to the top piece, and has a notch that mates with the top of the lower piece. This saves trying to bolt up the housings when assembled to the rest of the parts on the model, which would have been a real bear. The tee fittings will get short sections of copper pipe inserted and loctited in, and the pipe/tee sections will (just) slide through the pipe openings in the housings, then can be (just) screwed to the connector blocks. The sections of the valves are held together by three long threaded rods, which screw into the top plates and get nuts at the bottom. The entire pump assembly, all three pump chambers and all six check valves, plus all the housings, will be assembled together, then put onto the model base plate in one unit. The legs of the frame will have to come off to do that, and be re-installed afterwards. Going to be a lot of fiddly work for all that, with the shop elves teaching me new swear words as screws/nuts get dropped along the way!


 
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on May 14, 2021, 03:52:20 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build-off topic
Post by: Steam Haulage on May 14, 2021, 04:58:16 PM
Off topic i have spent some time not in the best of health but am hoping to catch up soon. I remember you began using Fusion 360 when you designed the steam powered skating timber logging tractor with great success. Can I ask - are you still using that package? I am considering looking at it again.

Great to see you are maintaining your quality!!!

Jerry :DrinkPint:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on May 14, 2021, 05:21:47 PM
This is really neat, Chris!  Thanks for the detailed info on how it all fits together.  It is starting to make more sense to me now :)  Great work, as always!   :popcorn: :popcorn:

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dreeves on May 14, 2021, 06:50:18 PM
Chiris, Great looking so far. 1 question will the brass parts be inside the 3d printed parts?

I look forward to the new posts everyday

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build-off topic
Post by: crueby on May 14, 2021, 09:18:34 PM
Off topic i have spent some time not in the best of health but am hoping to catch up soon. I remember you began using Fusion 360 when you designed the steam powered skating timber logging tractor with great success. Can I ask - are you still using that package? I am considering looking at it again.

Great to see you are maintaining your quality!!!

Jerry :DrinkPint:
Hi Jerry,


Yes, I am still using Fusion 360, recently bought the full license when they started restricting some of the import and export features on the free version, I need them for both my builds and for all the magazine articles I have been doing, well worth it for my uses. Very comfortable with it, though it has a lot of capabilities I don't need.


I used it for the Marion  Steam Shovel and Stanley engine builds, lots of RC submarine stuff too. Works well with my new 3d printer too.


Chris
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 14, 2021, 09:20:53 PM
Chiris, Great looking so far. 1 question will the brass parts be inside the 3d printed parts?

I look forward to the new posts everyday

Dave
Hi Dave,


Yes, the brass check valves will fit inside the printed housings, so won't be seen but will function like the check valves cast into the housings on the real engine. At least thats the plan! Will know for sure soon.


Chris
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Steam Haulage on May 15, 2021, 08:52:17 AM
Crueby wrote:
Yes, I am still using Fusion 360, recently bought the full license when they started restricting some of the import and export features on the free version, I need them for both my builds and for all the magazine articles I have been doing, well worth it for my uses. Very comfortable with it, though it has a lot of capabilities I don't need.

Thanks Chris, especially the note about using the paid version. I have every confidence in Autodesk software having been an Inventor user for some years. Now I am fully retired the annual subs for that is way out of my reach, I tried Fusion 360 when it first launched just to see how it performed and was, even in those relative ly simple days, impressed but didn't want to learn a new approach. The Full subs works out about £500 including the tax so is just about doable, hopefully the learning curve is as well.

I have tried to keep up with your really admirable projects and envy is just about in check.

Best regards
Jerry
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 16, 2021, 06:23:28 PM
Yesterday was our first full pond day with the RC submarines for the season, had perfect weather for it, great time out. No shop time, though one of the other guys and I are plotting out our next submarine builds - I'm doing the CAD work for the 3D printed fins/cockpit/etc, he is making up the ballast systems and radio compartments. It is going to be based on the shark-shaped sub from an old TinTin cartoon that he found. Pics on that as it comes together - thinking that it may be sized right for the shop elves to ride in!

Been plugging away at making all the gaskets for the pump/checkvalve assemblies. Got them all done, and cut down the lengths of copper pipe that will go between the check valves. Rather than solder, I am using some thick Loctite to join the pipes and tee fittings, they will not be under much pressure and just cold water, no steam or heat, and the Loctite makes a quick way to join them. I'm just attaching the pipes on one end of the tees for now, I need to have things partially assembled on the main base plate to space things out properly to make the lengths of pipes/tees in one piece. That will probably happen tomorrow, letting the loctite cure up plus its nice out and the front yard is calling.... Pictures of the assemblies tomorrow probably.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 17, 2021, 02:38:19 PM
This morning got the pump pieces all test assembled on the base, looks like the fit is good so I'll take the pipe sections off one at a time and loctite the joints. After that has set, take it apart one more time, add the gaskets, and assemble them with the housings around them. They will go into the housings in a particular order that allows access to the screws, will take pictures as I go.
(https://i.postimg.cc/bvpRmqXj/IMG-9358.jpg)
The first picture shows it from the HP cylinder end, which is where the lake water enters through the lower set of pipes - still need to make the barbed fittings for the ends to take some large bore flexible tube that will be fed through the Y-shaped pipe that will come off the end. On the up stroke of each pump cylinder, it draws water through the lower check valve chambers on either side and into the pump cylinder at the center. On the downstroke, the pump forces the water back out to through the upper check valve chambers at the top, and out the upper pair of pipes to the far (LP cylinder) end, and to the city. Below is a side view. The vertical frames were removed for all this work, they will go back on after the housings are on. Going to be a lot of screws to place and tighten down!

(https://i.postimg.cc/VkjR9dVR/IMG-9359.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RReid on May 17, 2021, 03:27:10 PM
Great to see all those parts start coming together. I'm sure you could see it in your minds eye, but I sure couldn't. Looking fantastic, per usual!  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 17, 2021, 04:08:39 PM
Great to see all those parts start coming together. I'm sure you could see it in your minds eye, but I sure couldn't. Looking fantastic, per usual!  :ThumbsUp:
Thanks Ronald! Even with the CAD model of it, and seeing it the minds eye, I STILL keep putting some of the parts on backwards the first time!   :shrug:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: EricB on May 17, 2021, 04:15:48 PM
Hi Chris,

Looking at your pictures I'm wondering if your pipe arrangement will fit in your housings.

Eric
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 17, 2021, 04:26:22 PM
Hi Chris,

Looking at your pictures I'm wondering if your pipe arrangement will fit in your housings.

Eric
Well, elf-exhaust!  Where were you yesterday?   :Jester:

Yup - you are right, those caps are fine for the lower housings where the pipe extends out and is capped, but not on the upper housings with the blended in pipe ends. Huh. Never spotted that one - did all the modelling in CAD for the pipework on the middle housing. Whoops.    :slap:

Not a big problem, I can trim off the end of the Tee and put in a plug instead. The tee sections work, but would have been better done with an elbow in that one place. Those upper assemblies are the first to go in the housings, so I would not have gotten very far!  Thanks much for the catch!!!   :cheers:

The (butt)-crack rework team is on it:
(https://i.postimg.cc/W4MS94b2/IMG-9360.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on May 17, 2021, 05:13:54 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on May 17, 2021, 06:20:30 PM
That looks really slick, Chris!   :popcorn: :popcorn:

Boy, some people are following very closely to be able to catch that!  I'm still trying to catch up to what it's going to look like when assembled!

Great work.  I'm sure you'll get this little hiccup worked out quickly!

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 17, 2021, 07:14:27 PM
Thanks Kim!  As for what it is going to (hopefully) look like, the pump section of the engine is circled in this picture. Probably another couple months to get that level done, then on to the actual engine above it! There is a maintenance platform about the level of those smaller hatches above the ladders still to make, that does not show well in this picture. Plus a bunch of smaller pipes/valves. The pump plungers too, they connect in to the crossheads above, with the clusters of vertical rods visible around the con-rods. I've got castings for the flywheels, those are going to be fun to machine down, they are 8" diameter, 1" thick, quite heavy.

(https://i.postimg.cc/5yMgn6qN/DSC-7603-Lower.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 17, 2021, 08:52:03 PM
Got lucky - trimming those end caps off at an angle did the trick! They now fit inside the upper housings with the blended end pipes.   :)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on May 17, 2021, 09:52:09 PM
Thanks for posting that - I know you've shown the whole thing before, but seeing here, after watching that whole pump section come together - REALLY gives me a feel for the size of that monster.  The lower pump section must be 20' tall or more (judging from the guy standing there). 

You could mill the fly wheels using your RT?  ;D

And a slightly different question - those big pipes coming up at an angle on the right side - are those for the steam? Or something else?

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 17, 2021, 10:26:53 PM
Hi Kim,


These engines really are ginormous. And there are five of them in that building! Truly awesome sight.


The flywheels will be done on the lathe, have done others this big before. The Sherline headstock can be turned 90 degrees so the flywheel is hanging off the back, allowing the rim and one side to be turned at a time. I could also put in two riser blocks and turn it over the bed, but that gets iffy for rigidity and tool angles. I want to put in a taper lock which would be a tricky setup, or may stick with a keyway. Have not decided yet, that is months away still.




Those angled pipes on the right are the exhaust from the LP cylinder coming down to the condensor, which is a set of heat exchanger pipes inside a drum cooled by the pumped water. Another small pump sends that water out, not sure if the sent it back to the boilers. The condensor was added later, so is not in the plans. The input steam line is a smaller vertical pipe in the left end in that picture.


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: gary.a.ayres on May 17, 2021, 10:29:01 PM
Looking great!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 19, 2021, 03:50:53 PM
No progress posts from the last couple days, but progress is being made. With the nice weather finally here, lots of outside time, but I have started assembly of the pumps. A couple of the parts needed some fettling for a proper fit, and I did some extra sealing on the tee/pipe joints since I don't want to have to take it all apart again later for any small leaks. Pictures are coming, going to wait till its all together so I can show the sequence all at once so it will make more sense.
For now, back outside, nice warm sunny day!
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: gary.a.ayres on May 19, 2021, 09:04:38 PM
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on May 20, 2021, 04:01:56 AM
Chris.....just thinking about basic pump engineering where 2 or more pistons displace fluid into a common discharge  :hammerbash:

Now I understand each cylinder has it's own check valve bank, however to maintain efficiency, check valves are located on intermediate discharge ports to stop the pressurized fluid from being forced backwards....I believe these may have been necessary due principally due to the huge volumes of fluid involved within the common discharge

This 3rd check valves could have been located in a common T spool, being for 'easy' service - the Pump Machine Engineer would have seen a brace of pressure gauges with constantly ranging pressure, as the pressure is achieved in 1 cylinder, then decay ...an repeated by 15 x 6 = 90 individual gauge pressure fluctuations per minute, if the machine was 15 RPM

I am sure you understand my thought the check valves are in the two intermediate pipe spools

Derek

Oops, my error.. :facepalm: :Doh:....there should also be a check valve [shown] on the discharge spool of the 3rd piston as it is needed to stop pressured fluid going backwards to the opposite body of 3 pistons in the other 1/2 of the pump components
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 20, 2021, 02:52:55 PM
Hi Derek,
There is absolutely not another check valve in the pipes like you show. If they did, that pipe would have to have been a lot larger diameter to put in another huge array of small check valves - they did not have the technology to make a single large check valve, maybe they do today in pipelines, I don't know.


Here is a cutaway view of what they did do, this is taken directly from the original builder blueprints, just converted to a 3D model:

(https://i.postimg.cc/90NjTP7F/Valve-Cutaway.jpg)

A description of the operation for any interested. The orange arrow in lower right shows one pump cylinder with the side wall cut away to show the plunger inside. The purple arrow shows one of the two valve housings for that cylinder cut away, with the inlet pipe coming in from the left. The water, under slight pressure since this chamber is a little lower than the level of the lake outside the building, would be drawn in through the lower check valves, red arrow, as the plunger goes up. When the plunger reached the top and stopped, those lower check valves would close, they are spring loaded valves that look a lot like an IC engine valve.  When the plunger pushed down again forcing the water out of the pump chamber, the water would flow through the upper bank of check valves shown by the green arrow, and out through the output pipe (blue arrow). The connection of the output pipe to the chamber above the green arrow was cut away so the valves would show. In that upper chamber, shown where the orange circle is, they piped in compressed air to act as a buffer for the changing pressures and prevent water hammering. The air partially filled the top of that chamber. House type pumps on wells have the same feature. There is another air chamber like that on the output pipes where they meet in the big Y pipe to the right, not shown in this picture.
They did not use check valves in the common pipes between these housings. Maybe they would on more modern systems? The three pump plungers are worked by the engine pistons above, so they are 120 degrees out of phase with each other. That means that the flow in the pipes IS fluctuating some, would be the combination of the three sine waves created by the three pumps, with less total variation than there would be from one pump acting alone. The air-filled force chamber reduced the bouncing of the water flow but it would still be there.

Derek, back to your original question, while a more modern system may be designed differently given the way they can computer-model the flows to make it more efficient, for early 1900s this is what they had. It had to work well enough since it ran till about 1980.  Its fascinating to compare it in size to the electrically driven turbine pumps they replaced these engines with.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sxL1nZP4/DSC_7535.jpg)
These pumps sit right next to the old steam pumps, in one of the bays they had left to add more steam pumps for future expansion needs. About the same footprint on the floor as one engine/pump, a tiny fraction of the height, and they feed a city that has grown a lot.
Now, let me say that I am NOT a fluidics expert in any way, except how to drain a beer glass. The design of a more modern plunger pump system is way beyond me - might be a good discussion topic over in MJM's thermodynamics discussion thread!
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 20, 2021, 03:01:39 PM
Realized that if I cut away less on the left it shows the output pipes better:
(https://i.postimg.cc/hj6kt4Wf/Valve-Cutaway2.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on May 20, 2021, 04:47:08 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 20, 2021, 08:10:23 PM
Okay, finally ready to show the full assembly sequence (well, most of it, still need to screw in the last two horizontal pipes and the Y pipes at the ends). This sequence was spread over the last couple of days, and included a couple backtracks when I realized I had put a part on backwards.  To start, there was the collection of pump chambers, housings, and check valve bits. More than would fit on the table for one photo! These are about 1/3 of the pieces:

(https://i.postimg.cc/mZqMNPGt/IMG-9362.jpg)
First step was to slide in the horizontal outflow pipe with its tee fittings, through the force chamber housings (upper housings, the ones with the domed top), and screw in the connector blocks. The pipes/tees allowed enough room to tilt the parts far enough to make it easy to run in the screws. There is a gasket betwen the block and the flange on the tee.

(https://i.postimg.cc/FHXL8wzv/IMG-9367.jpg)
With all three blocks on each pipe, the pipes were rotated back to their normal position.
(https://i.postimg.cc/LX5YjpCt/IMG-9370.jpg)
Then came the upper plate, which covers the top of the outflow check valve chamber. The four screws were run through the gasket, then screwed into the bottom of the connector block. The three long pieces of threaded rod were also in the plate, which made a handy place to hold on to the plate.

(https://i.postimg.cc/xdtNkCRj/IMG-9373.jpg)
Here is one set of three force chambers with the outflow pipe, connector blocks, and cover plates in place. The gasket rings were pushed on over the threaded rods. These will seal to the outflow check valve chambers.

(https://i.postimg.cc/GhyDMbcz/IMG-9375.jpg)
Next the outflow check valve chambers were added. Before sliding them onto the threaded rods, the four stainless steel balls were put into position in each one, and the chambers slid into place while holding the parts up so the balls would not fall out. Once each chamber was in place, the next gasket ring was added to hold it there. With the parts held in place, the assembly could be tipped upside down without the balls falling out due to the posts between the holes. You can just see some of the ball bearings through the holes in the right hand chamber in the next photo.

(https://i.postimg.cc/W3yDnHCQ/IMG-9377.jpg)
With both upper assemblies up to that point, they were set aside and so the lower assemblies could be started. In the next photo, one of the lower housings is slid onto the pipe coming out of the pump chamber. You can see the two screw holes in the end of the pipe, this will hold the intake check valve chamber.

(https://i.postimg.cc/rp8tFW5Y/IMG-9363.jpg)
And, you guessed it, the intake chamber was screwed into place next, with a gasket sealing the joint to the pipe.
(https://i.postimg.cc/L8k1pvg1/IMG-9364.jpg)
The socket head screws were just far enough in to allow a ball-end hex wrench to tighten them up most of the way, finished with the short-L end of the wrench for final tightness. You can see the posts that keep the ball bearings from going too far out of position between each hole, including the two extra that keep them from rolling down the pipe into the pump.
At this point, the lower assembly of one pump chamber and two lower housings could be slid onto the appropriate set of the threaded rods from the upper assembly, and another gasket ring added. This is where I messed up at first and put the first set on the wrong end, which meant the intake pipes went out below the outflow pipes, rather than the other end. Got a couple more steps in, and had to backtrack to here and try it again.   :slap: In this picture its on the correct way, with the capped end of the intake pipes below the outflow end.

(https://i.postimg.cc/hv7X30qh/IMG-9380.jpg)
So, here is a look up the bottom of the lower chamber, during the assembly process. The threaded rods have come through the intake chamber, and at this point things have to be held to keep everything in place.
(https://i.postimg.cc/NLqKhrgD/IMG-9381.jpg)
Then, the next gasket can be added to keep it there (the holes in the gasket are a snug fit on the threads).
(https://i.postimg.cc/qBtQTVJ6/IMG-9382.jpg)
Finally (at least for as far as I have gotten so far) the bottom chamber and its connector block can be added and nuts run in on the ends of the threaded rods. These bottom chambers transition from the connector block hole to the larger area of the check valve, these chambers are just open on the inside, no moving parts.
(https://i.postimg.cc/CMW7MP5P/IMG-9383.jpg)
With all three sets of pumps assembled, it could be stood back up and admired for a while:
(https://i.postimg.cc/xTMRXvb0/IMG-9384.jpg)
Next steps will be to slide the intake pipes/tees into the lower pipes in the housings, add gaskets and screw them to the connector blocks. That set will be more of a pain, since the screws will have to be tightened with the short end L on the hex wrench, lots of 1/4 turns for each. If I had been thinking ahead just a little better I would have threaded the bottom of the lowest chamber, and run longer screws through the connector blocks so they could be added to the tees first then swun into place like the top ones were. Oh well, next time I make one of these.... Um, probably wont!
After those pipes are added, I can then bolt it all down to the base plate, that will be several gazillion more screws through all those holes in the bottom flanges on the housings, and then reinstall the vertical frames again.  I did do a pressure test on the outflow pipes, blowing in the barbed tube fittings to ensure the check valves were all sealing - they were!  After all that, just 47.23 million more parts to this build, the shop elves are already demanding raises and more pretzels to go with the truckloads of beer they are bringing in. Fine by me if they'd share! 
 :cheers:


Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RReid on May 20, 2021, 08:43:28 PM
Quote
the shop elves are already demanding raises and more pretzels to go with the truckloads of beer they are bringing in

Yeah, and I'm running low on popcorn. Really fantastic progress Chris!  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: scc on May 20, 2021, 08:55:28 PM
More WOWS as previous :popcorn: :popcorn:       Terry
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: gary.a.ayres on May 20, 2021, 08:58:59 PM
Phenomenal work.

 :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: EricB on May 20, 2021, 09:12:26 PM
I'm just amazed that you got all those parts inside the housings. Great work! :whoohoo:

Eric
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on May 20, 2021, 11:24:07 PM
Very impressive, Chris!  Lot's of screws and nuts and things.  Lot's of pieces in general!    :ThumbsUp:

Thanks for the detailed step by step.  It was neat to see how you made all those pieces come together.  :popcorn: :popcorn:

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Don1966 on May 20, 2021, 11:35:47 PM
Dog, Dog , Dog….your persistence and speed of your work is incredible. The details work is awesome and I just can’t fathom just how you put all this time into a project. And did I say that ……..I ………………likeeeeeee…….. :Love:




 :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on May 21, 2021, 12:42:59 AM
I think I have finally got it Chris.......  :hammerbash:

In my mock up, we have the suction stroke of the 3rd water piston as shown in the fully retracted TDC so to allow water to be drawn from the lower header pipe, through the first set of check valves, and the height of the water lifted is limited by suction to the stroke of the water piston

The upper set of check valves simply lets the huge pocket of air to pass up into the massively large air chamber, and the water level is contained between the 2 sets of check valve plates....this contained volume is that pressurized on each stroke of each water piston into the system

On the commencement of the pressure stroke, the water commences to be pressurised against both plates of check valves, and so the water is forced into the discharge spool on its way as pressurized water for the City

Please confirm is this is aligned with your thinking?

So from this, I fully understand there are no additional sets of check valves in the pump system set itself. The could be more check valves and huge water accumulators remote for the pump station

Massive build Chris.......keep going  :cheers:  :popcorn: :cheers:

Derek

PS...I had read about multiple check valves in each bank, however had never seen or understood the detail as shown the cut-away images from today   :embarassed:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 21, 2021, 02:43:57 AM
Thanks guys! I am very relieved that it all fit okay, I did have to trim just a little off the bases of the connector blocks, I had guessed at the compressed thickness of the gaskets and wound up using the next thickness up. Getting the final gaskets and screws into the bottom horizontal pipes will be a bit of a pain, but not too bad. The elves can teach me new words when we drop screws down into the housings...!

Derek, I think you are very close. That top force chamber, according to the descriptions from the museums of the water works that I have read, were only about 1/4 to 1/3 full of air at the very top, the air was well above the outflow pipe top, about the level of th bottom of the word 'air' in your picture. That little pipe coming in from the left comes from the air compressor that could add/remove air from the chambers. And yes, as the pump plunger went up, the lower pressure on the incoming water would force open the bottom check valves while the higher pressure in the outflow pipe would push back down on the upper check valves, keeping them closed. That would draw water through that chamber you outlined in blue, and into the pump chamber in the center.
Then, on the downstroke, the plunger would be raising the pressure in those middle chambers, forcing the check valves in the lower group closed and the ones in the upper group open, pushing the water up against the output pipes' pressure. That output set of pipes would have constant pressure coming back from the pipes leading out to the city, I assume it would have a column of water up to the height of the water towers and any raised resevoirs that would generate that pressure. I do recall seeing big gate valves on the input and output pipes so they could isolate an engine for service, and you can see a man-hatch on the side of the valve chambers in the pictures, at the level between the upper and lower check valves.

Going from memory there were something like 1320 check valves in each engine - arranged in what I call beehives, those vertical groups on the plates, and each valve is several inches in diameter, have to look back at the plans for exact sizes. The diameter of the chambers themselves is about six feet, the pipes between the chambers are about 32" diameter. Nearly 1000 gallons moved per revolution of the engine, with single-acting pumps. Quite a massive flow per engine, and there were five engines in a row - probably all going at once on the holiday weekend with the big game on, and everyone flushing during the same commercial!   :noidea:
If you go back a few pages to when I posted the links to the engines in Cincinnatti, they had a great animation showing the pumping sequence, but that animation just used one flap to represent the check valve arrays, thier engines/pumps are very similar but a different brand than this one, but the general animation is close enough to this one.

I'm sad to see all my valve asssemblies hidden inside the housings, but glad that I did not have to make 1300+ tiny valves! Just image winding all those tiny springs, cutting all those gaskets, lapping all the valve steps/faces.... Yikes!
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on May 21, 2021, 08:01:37 AM
 :facepalm:  :Jester:...it is your engine Chris , so I should shutup....but :ROFL:.....[you know me  :Lol:..]


Derek

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 21, 2021, 12:46:38 PM
:facepalm: :Jester: ...it is your engine Chris , so I should shutup....but :ROFL: .....[you know me  :Lol: ..]


Derek
Absolutely not, ask away!!   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: MJM460 on May 21, 2021, 01:48:41 PM
Hi Chris, the amazing build just gets better and better.

But even more amazing is your ability to visualise the parts necessary to make them all fit, and create designs that you can successfully fabricate, let alone fit them inside those printed pipe sections.

Centrifugal pumps do not have the check valves that are an inherent part of reciprocating pumps, and don’t need them in order to work.  But it is normally necessary to have a check valve on the discharge of the pump to stop back flow from any pressure remaining in the discharge system when the pump stops.  And particularly when there are parallel pumps, when not all are operating.  It is necessary to prevent this reverse flow as the pump will act as a very efficient, but ungoverned, turbine when reverse flow occurs.  There have been cases of pumps over speeding to destruction when a discharge check valve failed when the pump stopped. 

The check valves in these pumps are just the very big machine version of the ball valves that are an inherent part of a reciprocating pump such as a boiler feed pump that many forum members have built.  It is necessary to use many smaller valves which involve much smaller forces when they stop suddenly on closing.  Big flappers break up on the repeated slamming against the seats.

Derek, is it possible that you have overlooked the discharge header that carries the water out to the distribution system?  Separate pulsation dampeners are provided on the inlet and discharge headers to prevent water hammer from the pulsation as all the mass of water in the whole header, not just the pump cylinder, is accelerates and decelerates in response to the pump strokes. 

I can start a little topic in Thermodynamics thread if more discussion is needed.  As Chris says, ask away.

MJM460

 
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 21, 2021, 04:00:57 PM
Hi MJM,


I think you have nailed it. What I have made is very similar to the boiler feed hand pumps we use, just with sets of four check balls on either side rather than one single set. And yes, there are shutoff gate valves at each end to isolate an engine for service, and another air dampening chamber on the output y pipe. These engines did not have another one on the input pipe, for whatever reason.


I think the flow pulsations and dampening could be a good topic on your thermodynamics thread.

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: propforward on May 21, 2021, 04:51:01 PM
Good heavens! I stopped in for an update, looked at the posts up top of the previous page and nearly fainted! What wonderful work!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 21, 2021, 05:16:21 PM
Good heavens! I stopped in for an update, looked at the posts up top of the previous page and nearly fainted! What wonderful work!
Strap in to the chair, keep your arms and legs inside the car at all times, and SCREAM on the downhill drop!   :Lol:

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 21, 2021, 05:22:06 PM
This morning got started bolting in the first of the lower horizontal input pipes. So far I have 10 of the 12 socket head screws in and tightened down, the last two will wait till I head out on the porch to read-nap for a while and work out the kink in the neck from all that hunching over the housings - handy to be nearsighted, for this kind of work I just take the glasses off and can see the little parts up close!
(https://i.postimg.cc/d0bvY55K/IMG-9387.jpg)

The pairs of screws closer to the opening in the housing (the whole unit is upside down on the table) were able to be started using the ball end on the hex wrench, but the other pairs farther in had to be started with the short L end. With only 1/6 of a turn at a time worth of throw, starting and running in the screws takes a while. Really should have set these up to go in like the other connector blocks, where I could screw them to the pipes and then rotate them down to the plates. Too late for that now, so another couple hours of running in the screws like this. I was worried that there would not be room to make the wrench operate and would have to drill a small hole in the housing, but it just has enough throw for one facet of the wrench at a time.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on May 21, 2021, 06:00:14 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Outstanding progress Chris! and a recommendation for screaming while going downhill too! Hard to beat that on any other hobby forum!  :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: ddmckee54 on May 21, 2021, 06:04:51 PM
Well, if you're going to get into the shoulda-woulda-couldas... Then you shoulda made that access plate shown in the last picture removeable instead of printing it and the rest of the fitting as one part.  Then you woulda had a spot where you coulda reached all the cap screws with a ball-end hex wrench.  20/20 hindsight is a wonderful thing isn't it? Glad it's you and the elves instead of me putting this thing together.  Who's gonna write the service manual for this pump?

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: mklotz on May 21, 2021, 06:10:55 PM
Chris, methinks you need to get a thin, ratcheting insert driver like this...

https://www.amazon.com/Neiko-03044A-Ratcheting-Screwdriver-Close-Quarters/dp/B000XYOUS6/ref=sr_1_31?dchild=1&keywords=thin+ratcheting+hex+driver&qid=1621616082&sr=8-31

My version, which came with my Chapman gun screwdriver set, is only 7/16" thick at its thickest point.  With a slightly abbreviated hex bit, I could slip it into a slot about 1/2" wide.

These type drivers work in both directions although many don't have a reversing switch; you flip it over to drive in the opposite direction.

Not applicable to your current task but perhaps useful to remember for future jobs is the fact that many of the 4mm driver sets come with a flexible driver extension, e.g....

https://www.amazon.com/ORIA-Precision-Screwdriver-Extension-Smartphone/dp/B07RDHLL9H/ref=sr_1_13?dchild=1&keywords=4mm+driver+set&qid=1621616877&sr=8-13
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 21, 2021, 07:15:55 PM
Well, if you're going to get into the shoulda-woulda-couldas... Then you shoulda made that access plate shown in the last picture removeable instead of printing it and the rest of the fitting as one part.  Then you woulda had a spot where you coulda reached all the cap screws with a ball-end hex wrench.  20/20 hindsight is a wonderful thing isn't it? Glad it's you and the elves instead of me putting this thing together.  Who's gonna write the service manual for this pump?

Don
I wish it was that easy - that hatch is at the level of between the input  and output check valves. There is another one on the far side of the force chambers above the check valves. They made those to let a service person (most likely an apprentice! ) climb in and service the valve beehives. If they needed to get underneath the lower valves they could open the pipe cap at the end and crawl down the pipe. For my setup, that doesn't help, the shop elves took one look and stalked off. Sigh.
The service manual will likely be written by the usual drunk dislexic swahili speaking chimpanzee with a broken typewriter!   :LittleDevil:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 21, 2021, 07:27:09 PM
Chris, methinks you need to get a thin, ratcheting insert driver like this...

https://www.amazon.com/Neiko-03044A-Ratcheting-Screwdriver-Close-Quarters/dp/B000XYOUS6/ref=sr_1_31?dchild=1&keywords=thin+ratcheting+hex+driver&qid=1621616082&sr=8-31 (https://www.amazon.com/Neiko-03044A-Ratcheting-Screwdriver-Close-Quarters/dp/B000XYOUS6/ref=sr_1_31?dchild=1&keywords=thin+ratcheting+hex+driver&qid=1621616082&sr=8-31)

My version, which came with my Chapman gun screwdriver set, is only 7/16" thick at its thickest point.  With a slightly abbreviated hex bit, I could slip it into a slot about 1/2" wide.

These type drivers work in both directions although many don't have a reversing switch; you flip it over to drive in the opposite direction.

Not applicable to your current task but perhaps useful to remember for future jobs is the fact that many of the 4mm driver sets come with a flexible driver extension, e.g....

https://www.amazon.com/ORIA-Precision-Screwdriver-Extension-Smartphone/dp/B07RDHLL9H/ref=sr_1_13?dchild=1&keywords=4mm+driver+set&qid=1621616877&sr=8-13 (https://www.amazon.com/ORIA-Precision-Screwdriver-Extension-Smartphone/dp/B07RDHLL9H/ref=sr_1_13?dchild=1&keywords=4mm+driver+set&qid=1621616877&sr=8-13)
Hi Marv,
That little ratchet is the type of thing that would help in a lot of situations. I do have this one, which is made for getting at Ford headlight bolts down inside the frame, it has a gearless clutch inside so it can operate on very small lever angles - I got it during the Marion shovel build, was perfect for getting in between the frame rails. Its too big for this use, but gets a lot of use on the models:
(https://i.postimg.cc/L47W0JQr/IMG-9390.jpg)
I do have a big set of the Wiha drivers, even those are too long for this:
(https://i.postimg.cc/P5bFx2fj/IMG-9394.jpg)
Your post does give me ideas though, need to send this one to my shop elves research division, and have Elfbert Elfstien come up with a quantum ratchet driver. Seems do-able to make a very small one that could take short lengths cut off of hex wrenches and get into smaller spaces. I've never looked into how the stepless clutch ratchets work, imagine its something like the ball clutches I've seen on builds in this forum - might have been on one of the Otto Langen engines? They may be too large a diameter, but maybe with just one ball on axis with the handle. Or just a very small gear with ratchet, needs to be at least 12 teeth to do half-steps of a hex wrench. Would make a good group project design/build for the forum!
For size judging, this is the space I am working in, and the screw is a little over an inch down the tube:
(https://i.postimg.cc/RZxD4jBd/IMG-9396.jpg)
I just finished getting the last two screws in for this side of the pump, next back out for another read/nap on the porch and do another session to start the other side later. Might need cookies too - need to get another bag of them out of the freezer!
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 21, 2021, 07:31:22 PM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Outstanding progress Chris! and a recommendation for screaming while going downhill too! Hard to beat that on any other hobby forum!  :cheers:
:cheers:
(https://i.postimg.cc/j2VF29fR/Image3.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RReid on May 21, 2021, 09:50:20 PM
You might be able to connect your hex stub to your ratchet with a length of soft plastic tubing, like Tygon. That would allow you to turn it from an offset or angled position. A kluge-master's u-joint for low torque applications. Final tightening might need another idea.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 21, 2021, 09:57:28 PM
You might be able to connect your hex stub to your ratchet with a length of soft plastic tubing, like Tygon. That would allow you to turn it from an offset or angled position. A kluge-master's u-joint for low torque applications. Final tightening might need another idea.
That's a possibility!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 22, 2021, 12:27:43 AM
Late afternoon saw the last of the screws in to connect up the lower pipes, so I got it flipped over and set on the base. Started running in all the screws to hold it all down on the base - still a bunch more to go. Here are a few pictures of it so far. Once the rest of the screws are in to the base, I can start putting the frame rails back on again.
(https://i.postimg.cc/WbMY5TFV/IMG-9398.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/P5T3c9Yw/IMG-9399.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/7Z9sy9nQ/IMG-9400.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: propforward on May 22, 2021, 02:40:44 AM
 :praise2: :NotWorthy:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Craig DeShong on May 22, 2021, 03:06:01 AM
This looks absolutely fantastic Chris.   :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on May 22, 2021, 04:23:46 AM
Yes....looks supurb  :ThumbsUp:. ...

However I still believe the check valves in the upper plate are of different internal construction  :hammerbash: to check valves in the lower plate

The lower check valves open under vacuum, an admit water to the volunetric capacity equalling the swept volume of the water piston

So, could the upper plate check valves be bi-directioal? :whoohoo:........[free floating ball]......which would fall under vacuum of the suction stroke, and also allow water to enter the air chamber, but this is limited in water height by the stroke/volume of the water piston

Then, during the pressure stroke the lower check valve closes, and the bi-directional upper check valve also closes so sending the pressurized water on its merry way, leaving the water [level previously explained] trapped in the air chamber? :Doh:
--------------

The bi-directioanl check valves would look externally to be identical, but internally have different porting or the omission of a spring in the ball chamber....so is there anything hidden in those original drawings :happyreader:?

Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 22, 2021, 02:32:34 PM
Yes....looks supurb  :ThumbsUp: . ...

However I still believe the check valves in the upper plate are of different internal construction  :hammerbash: to check valves in the lower plate

The lower check valves open under vacuum, an admit water to the volunetric capacity equalling the swept volume of the water piston

So, could the upper plate check valves be bi-directioal? :whoohoo: ........[free floating ball]......which would fall under vacuum of the suction stroke, and also allow water to enter the air chamber, but this is limited in water height by the stroke/volume of the water piston

Then, during the pressure stroke the lower check valve closes, and the bi-directional upper check valve also closes so sending the pressurized water on its merry way, leaving the water [level previously explained] trapped in the air chamber? :Doh:
--------------

The bi-directioanl check valves would look externally to be identical, but internally have different porting or the omission of a spring in the ball chamber....so is there anything hidden in those original drawings :happyreader: ?

Derek
You are over-thinking it - the valves are the same on upper and lower plate. Both operate under pressure differences between the upper and lower sides. When the suction is applied from the plunger on the upstroke, there is lower pressure between the plates, and higher pressure below the lower plate and above the upper plate. That will push the valve up on the lower plate and down on the upper plate. On the downstroke of the plunger, there is now higher pressure in the space between the plates, which pushes down on the lower valves and up on the upper valves, opening the upper/closing the lower. Also - key point here - there are springs on every valve to help close them.

This may help too - here is a picture of one of the 'beehives' of valves that I had described in an earlier post. Each beehive is covered with rows of valves, 15 in all. The hive is hollow, and sits above a hole in one of the plates.
(https://i.postimg.cc/vHpFBfDv/Valve-Cage.jpg)

Each valve look slike this. On the left is an exploded view, right is the assembled view.  The green part is a metal base, with openings for the water to flow through. Above that is a rubber gasket piece shown in purple. Above that is the valve plate in orange, that is held down by the spring above it. At the top is a post with adjusting nut, that post screws into the bottom base, and retains the spring/valve plate. The plate is free to slide on the post, but held down by the spring.

(https://i.postimg.cc/GhBndq32/Valve-Exploded.jpg)


This arrangement works the same on top and bottom plates, the valve moved by the pressure differential during the pump strokes. Hope that helps?
 :cheers: 
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: kvom on May 22, 2021, 02:38:02 PM
So water passes between the purple and orange parts when open?
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 22, 2021, 02:45:33 PM
So water passes between the purple and orange parts when open?
Thats my understanding - the rubber piece, in purple, has the openings in it to let the water through, the orange plate is pushed up the post by the pressure. The pressure needed to open the valve could be adjusted by the nut above the spring - that was probably adjusted periodically as the rubber piece wore over time.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 22, 2021, 04:13:37 PM
And more reassembled - got the lower frames back on with the flat plates on top. Those plates will hold the three large base plates for the engine proper, with the crankshaft and supports for the upper engine frames.
(https://i.postimg.cc/brzsD4J1/IMG-9401.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/sxw1pKQq/IMG-9404.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/NG4yqGJD/IMG-9403.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on May 22, 2021, 08:53:25 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Great looking subassembly!  :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 22, 2021, 09:26:13 PM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Great looking subassembly!  :cheers:
Thanks CNR, got to be the most involved base for an engine I have ever done!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 23, 2021, 03:56:55 PM
Yesterday I got the big gate valves for the intake pipes designed and 3D printed, painted and installed this morning. Very important valves, since these pipes drew water from the lake, and were below the surface of the lake. There is a little building out in the lake where the intakes and initial screens/filters were. One thing I noticed on the real engine was that the shutoff wheels are not reachable from any of the catwalks, but they did have portable ladders scattered around that would reach them.

(https://i.postimg.cc/wBzQ0JX6/IMG-9405.jpg)
Speaking of catwalks, that is one of the next items to be made, the lowest platforms. These sit on top of the intake pipes between the pump chambers. There will be several other levels of catwalks higher up on the engine.
(https://i.postimg.cc/qqNszGTG/Pump-Catwalks.jpg)
The railings are simple shapes, but I will need a lot of them, the upper catwalks have them too. Going to be yet another jig to make...  Also, I'm turning down the stock for the pump plungers, then will attach the blocks on top of them to take the connecting rods that go up to the crossheads. Pictures on that later.


Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on May 23, 2021, 04:32:43 PM
Re the railings- the "joiner" or "connector" pieces look like three variations -
1. one hole vertical, one hole horizontal
2. one hole vertical, two holes horizontal at 180 deg  apart
3. one hole vertical, two holes horizontal at 90 deg apart

Might be a Shapeways bronze part job, with variations in the horiz hole pattern to make the 3 variants. 3D metal printing would allow a nice looking spherical joiner body, simulating a cast original shape (or whatever shape it was). Bronze would allow you to soft solder the railing rods (maybe they are brass wire or tube?)  to the joiners for a nice robust railing, against the pokey overscale fingers of observers, or to withstand elf gymnastics.  :Lol:

The gate valves and operating gear look great! I wonder what the full size gate weighed, inside the existing valves?  :thinking: probably close to a ton, or more. Glad they had a gear reduction and leadscrew to operate those!  Couple of   :DrinkPint: needed after a shift wrestling those valves.

 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 23, 2021, 05:28:12 PM
Hi CNR,


Casting those connector pieces would cost a fortune given that I'll need dozens of them. More fun to set up a couple jigs to make them from brass bar stock anyway. The straight sections of the posts as well as the railings will be stainless rod. Some serious mass production of parts. And don't forget the bases, to attach to the floors.


Those gate valves must have been heavy, 36 inch diameter, and heavy enough to take the pressure.  The plans show the size and location, but no internal details. Either that page is missing or it was an off the shelf part from another maker. They made all the other valves, so maybe that page was just missing.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on May 23, 2021, 07:17:05 PM
Hi Chris, I had not thought too much about costs with Shapeways. If you need lots of the connectors, yes it could get costly. Is the shape of the connectors spherical or jam-jar 'cylinder with shaped ends' shape? Either way not hard to make a batch from bar stock when all set up. Do you have a toolpost drill spindle accessory for the Sherline, or a Dremel mount bracket? this might speed things up by enabling the (eventually) horizontal holes to be cross-drilled while the bar / connector blank is still chucked. Just food for thought.

Now mind you with as many elves as you have in your shop, they may get through the cross drilling pretty quickly!  :Lol:     :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 23, 2021, 07:37:45 PM
Hi Chris, I had not thought too much about costs with Shapeways. If you need lots of the connectors, yes it could get costly. Is the shape of the connectors spherical or jam-jar 'cylinder with shaped ends' shape? Either way not hard to make a batch from bar stock when all set up. Do you have a toolpost drill spindle accessory for the Sherline, or a Dremel mount bracket? this might speed things up by enabling the (eventually) horizontal holes to be cross-drilled while the bar / connector blank is still chucked. Just food for thought.

Now mind you with as many elves as you have in your shop, they may get through the cross drilling pretty quickly!  :Lol:     :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:


I don't have a toolpost drill setup, at least yet!  These post tops are a lot like chain link fence connectors are today, pipe fits in bottom and side holes of the fitting, a rounded top. Pretty simple shape to make. The way I have done cross holes on round rod in the past is to drill a hole on a block the size of the stock, then turn the block on its side and drill a second hole the size of the rail stock. Then can insert the bar for the fitting, use the block as a drill guide for the cross hole, no spot drilling or flat milling needed. Swap to the lathe, shape the end and part off. Repeat over and over. The parted off fittings can be chucked in the lathe to drill the blind bottom hole. Fiddly to make so many, but simple quick steps that the elves can do. With frequent cookie bribes!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on May 23, 2021, 08:17:44 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:  Sounds good Chris! Are you at making / buying 100 dozen cookies a week yet to keep production levels up? :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 23, 2021, 08:38:37 PM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:  Sounds good Chris! Are you at making / buying 100 dozen cookies a week yet to keep production levels up? :Lol:
Only 50 dozen...  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 23, 2021, 10:08:52 PM

Started in on the pump plungers, turned from some stainless steel. The top of them tapers in, and will get a rectangular block attached that will have the long rods up to the crosshead attached at each corner. Waiting on some bar stock for those blocks, so after this will skip over to making the jigs for the railing posts.

(https://i.postimg.cc/PxWnp0Wt/IMG-9409.jpg)
The three plungers set in place in the pump chambers - each chamber has an o-ring in a shallow groove at the top, with a compressing rin bolted down over it. Tightening the bolts will squeeze the rings if needed to expand them, they are a good sliding fit with the rings just tight enough to hold them like a piston ring groove.
(https://i.postimg.cc/TwMXPTW7/IMG-9410.jpg)
As I recall, the throw on the pistons is about 2", so these plungers will have that much travel.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: MJM460 on May 24, 2021, 10:52:12 AM
Hi Chris, it might be a very complex base plate, but at least when you finish the engine, you won’t have to wonder what to drive with it in order to put it to work.

Do you know by any chance the diameter of the intake and how far the pipe goes out into the lake?  The “Y” fitting that branches to the headers each side of the engine looks like all three flanges are equal size, but there may be a reducer from say a 48 inch inlet line.

MJM460

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 24, 2021, 12:40:17 PM
Hi MJM,  the intakes down each side are 36" diameter, where they join at the base of the Y they are 48". Same on the output pipes. The angle on the camera makes them look the same but they are larger at the ends of the Y's. Not quite double the capacity between large and small pipes.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: kvom on May 24, 2021, 01:16:55 PM
On the intake valves, did you print the threaded rod, or just add it?  If printed it's pretty interesting to get that detail.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 24, 2021, 02:12:06 PM
On the intake valves, did you print the threaded rod, or just add it?  If printed it's pretty interesting to get that detail.
No, that's lengths of some 4-40 threaded rod. I didn't think threads that small would come out well. The gears were printed, look good but wouldn't wear well!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steam guy willy on May 24, 2021, 02:38:01 PM
Hi Chris , this is looking absolutely superb and I am lost for words ....great craftsmanship and skill with all these parts ...I am quite envious ...

Willy
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: tvoght on May 24, 2021, 02:54:05 PM
Chris, As far as I can tell, your techniques for combining metalworking and 3d printing to make detailed functioning scale models are... Would ground-breaking be too strong a term? I'm increasingly fascinated with what you're doing here.   --Tim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 24, 2021, 05:09:55 PM
Thanks Tim/Willy!  Much appreciated!

Just made and printed the drawing sheets for the two platforms at the pump level, also counted up the total number of railing posts that I need for all four of the platform levels on the model. Only 156 of them.....  :paranoia:    I better get in another busload of shop elves from Rent-An-Elf for the week!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 24, 2021, 08:44:33 PM
As previously discussed, since I am waiting for some bar stock for the pump plunger end plates, I am skipping on to make the elf-barrow full of railing posts that will be needed for the railings on all the platforms up the engine. The drilling jig for the top posts was made from a scrap bit of steel block, first drilling a 1/8" hole in the end to take the bar stock used to make the railing top fittings:
(https://i.postimg.cc/DzbfsZ6r/IMG-9412.jpg)
With the mill table in/out axis locked, the block was then turned on its side and a 1/16" hole drilled through the block, positioned so that it would leave enough of the bar stock below the hole to form the ball in the end and leave a shoulder to go over the vertical post of the railing. This hole goes all the way through the block, so any chips can fall through while drilling the bars. After drilling this hole, I ran a 1/8" hand reamer in the other hole to clean up the burs this drill left on the inside.

(https://i.postimg.cc/DZr2jMtm/IMG-9414.jpg)
Then cut some 1/8" brass roundbar into short lengths to help speed up the process - with a handfull of short lengths, I can do each step on both ends of all the bars, then move to the other machine for the next step, saving some back and forth'ing. The ends of each bar are pushed into the hole in the block all the way, and the drill run through it. The steel block acts as a drill guide, so no need for a spot drill or milling a flat on the side of the bar. This step goes very quick.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZYLb6X8M/IMG-9415.jpg)
Result is a nicely centered hole in each end of the bar. The extra stock between the hole and the end of the bar will become the bottom of the ball and the shoulder below it.

(https://i.postimg.cc/8cwTDrkS/IMG-9416.jpg)
Test fit of the 1/16 steel rod to be used as the railing:
(https://i.postimg.cc/288zGTT8/IMG-9417.jpg)
Then over to the lathe to drill a shallow hole in each end, and part it off:
(https://i.postimg.cc/PJddBMjy/IMG-9419.jpg)
Here is the first one, loctited to the end of a 1" length of the 1/16th steel rod, which will be the vertical rail post. I'll need to cut a cup full of 1" lengths for this.
(https://i.postimg.cc/cHyxcSkV/IMG-9420.jpg)
Stopping there for now to let the loctite cure, and test to see if that holds well enough to shape the brass on the lathe - should be, but I dont want to make dozens then find out otherwise. So, some hard work for the late afternoon, go out on the porch with the elves and read in the rocking chair! :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 24, 2021, 10:51:26 PM
Methinks this'll work!  Let the loctite cure up for a while, quick spin on the lathe to take the lower end down with parting tool and round it with a file.

(https://i.postimg.cc/vHGXq24j/IMG-9421.jpg)
Could be a good place to grind up a forming tool to get them all the same.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dave Otto on May 25, 2021, 12:28:58 AM
Hi Chris
Why not make a form tool from a piece of 01 flat stock? in the end it would be faster and you would get more consistent results.

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 25, 2021, 12:34:44 AM
Hi Chris
Why not make a form tool from a piece of 01 flat stock? in the end it would be faster and you would get more consistent results.

Dave
May well do that, given the number I need to make. I have several hss tool blanks, could grind one to suit.   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Don1966 on May 25, 2021, 01:36:31 AM
I guess I m just going to have to get me some of those cookies you get giving those elves. The way you are turning out parts is making me dizzy and I need some energy…and did I say ………I………..likeeeeee…… ? :Love:


  :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on May 25, 2021, 02:54:02 AM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

With that extra busload of elves, you may need a bigger cookie oven, or set up bulk ordering of cookies from store or bakery!! Not a bad problem to have.  :shrug::Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 25, 2021, 04:29:02 AM
Too bad none of my elves are named Keebler. Or Amos. Or Crocker...  They did chip in (pun) and buy me a stand mixer so I can make them more cookies...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: ddmckee54 on May 25, 2021, 06:34:46 PM
They PROBABLY just want to "borrow" the mixer to mix the next batch of mash for their still.  I'm told it has a distinctive aroma so you'll know when they use it.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 26, 2021, 12:02:37 AM
They PROBABLY just want to "borrow" the mixer to mix the next batch of mash for their still.  I'm told it has a distinctive aroma so you'll know when they use it.

Don
Just great. Who told the elves about the show Moonshiners? Thanks a LOT!    :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 26, 2021, 12:08:19 AM
Plugging away on the railing parts - got all the vertical posts cut using the little Proxxon chop saw I bought secondhand, with a twirl against the grinding wheel to take the burr off the ends that the abrasive wheel leaves. Also got about 70 of the top pieces drilled and parted off, thats almost half of what I need. They are going quick, about 35 an hour with lots of breaks for reading outside.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ncn4v9D4/IMG-9422.jpg)
It doesn't show well in the picture, but the top pieces are all drilled on the end to fit the posts and cross drilled for the rails. The bar stock for the pump plunger tops came today, as well as some sheet aluminum for the catwalk decks. The boxes and tubes the aluminum came in (yes, they split the shipment into three containers, all from the same location 60 miles from here) weighed more than the aluminum inside!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Don1966 on May 26, 2021, 05:02:40 AM
Dog did you say plugging away now come on man your not plugging your jetting through is more like it..


 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 26, 2021, 01:37:40 PM
Dog did you say plugging away now come on man your not plugging your jetting through is more like it..


 :cheers:
Don
:Lol:   The loop-de-loops in the jet are fun...   :Lol:
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: ddmckee54 on May 26, 2021, 02:55:40 PM
They PROBABLY just want to "borrow" the mixer to mix the next batch of mash for their still.  I'm told it has a distinctive aroma so you'll know when they use it.

Don
Just great. Who told the elves about the show Moonshiners? Thanks a LOT!    :Lol:

Wasn't me, maybe it was the other Don?  Yeah, Yeah - that's it, it was the other Don.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 26, 2021, 11:59:34 PM
Today I got the rest of the top caps for the railings drilled and parted off, then as we discussed I made the first form tool to shape the very top of the caps to a dome. A very small radius, I started to cut it into the end of an old HSS cutter, then finished it using a diamond dental bur in the high speed rotary tool. Hard to get a decent picture of bits that small in the lathe, here is the best one that came out. It took a few tries to get the cutter positioned right, very sensitive to height since its right at the center of rotation.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Zqy3vc2V/IMG-9430.jpg)
I'm going to go through all the parts and round over the end like this, then will grind the shape in for the lower end of the cap where it curves back in towards the post. Will take a while, looks like I'm shaping two a minute with this setup, and there are 156 to do...!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: EricB on May 27, 2021, 12:09:00 AM
Today I got the rest of the top caps for the railings drilled and parted off, then as we discussed I made the first form tool to shape the very top of the caps to a dome. A very small radius, I started to cut it into the end of an old HSS cutter, then finished it using a diamond dental bur in the high speed rotary tool. Hard to get a decent picture of bits that small in the lathe, here is the best one that came out. It took a few tries to get the cutter positioned right, very sensitive to height since its right at the center of rotation.

I like to grind several profiles into the same tool to save time.

Eric
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 27, 2021, 12:16:00 AM
Today I got the rest of the top caps for the railings drilled and parted off, then as we discussed I made the first form tool to shape the very top of the caps to a dome. A very small radius, I started to cut it into the end of an old HSS cutter, then finished it using a diamond dental bur in the high speed rotary tool. Hard to get a decent picture of bits that small in the lathe, here is the best one that came out. It took a few tries to get the cutter positioned right, very sensitive to height since its right at the center of rotation.

I like to grind several profiles into the same tool to save time.

Eric
Wow - some fancy turning there! I was thinking sort of along those lines with this one, though just in reusing the tool blank, there is enough on the right side to cut in the shape for the bottom shape. Thinking that I would turn in one at a time though, so I could set the depth once and just run the tool side to side, given how many will need to be turned. This is the first time I've made a form tool for anything other than gear and ratchet teeth, for one-off shapes I tend to just use needle files on the spinning part. Guess thats the sculptor in me showing through!
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 27, 2021, 07:09:02 PM
Got all the post top parts shaped at the outer end today, and have made the form tool for the lower end, here is a picture during the refinement process on that.

(https://i.postimg.cc/Y0HXpw1H/IMG-9435.jpg)
Given the shape of the area to cut away, and how small the post is, it worked out best to have the part out from the chuck about 1/8" and run the tool in at the left end, then move it in sweeps to the right, going in a little deeper each time. Otherwise it puts so much force on the part that it bends the post. Think I have the shape of the cutter dialed in now, and have got the first 20 parts cut. Lot of work for such tiny parts, but in the end the railings will be a great detail to have at the correct size.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on May 27, 2021, 08:06:46 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on May 27, 2021, 09:56:03 PM
Yeah, tough to do much turning on such a little part!  Nice work Chris!  20 done, 200 to go! :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 28, 2021, 02:06:43 AM
Yeah, takes as long to start/stop and swap parts s it does to make the cuts,  making batches of 20 or 30 then taking a break, coming back in later for another batch. Only had four so far that didn't have enough loctite in the hole and popped loose. They are re loctited for next day, none ruined so far. The holes are only .100 deep so not a lot of surface area.




Then, after all these (160) top caps are done, bases to make! Those are simple flange plates, will be quick to make.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 28, 2021, 06:48:03 PM
The top caps are all done, so on to the base flanges for the railings. These are much simpler to make, all on the lathe with drill and parting tool. Drill a hole in the end to match the railing post diameter, then cut a step in the end and part off. Repeat 155 more times (60 done so far, these are going quickly)
(https://i.postimg.cc/sXLkmj0y/IMG-9436.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/prng1wgj/IMG-9438.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on May 28, 2021, 07:41:08 PM
You're a machine, Chris!  :praise2:

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 28, 2021, 07:50:04 PM
You're a machine, Chris!  :praise2:

Kim
A chocolate-powered machine!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Mcgyver on May 28, 2021, 10:30:25 PM
wow, what a great build!  36 pages in and I just notice it! talk about asleep at the switch
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 29, 2021, 10:01:39 PM
Thanks for stopping by Mcgyver! 




Today I got the rest of the railing bases made, can get started on the pump plunger tops now, after I finish some rc sub parts...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 30, 2021, 04:01:39 PM
So back on the pump plungers today, and have a very dull photo, starting to size up the stock for the plunger top plates. These will have a hole bored in the center to fit the top of the plunger, a hole in each corner for the rods that go up to the crosshead to move the plungers, and some ribbing milled in between all the holes.
(https://i.postimg.cc/KjhBZhsF/IMG-9442.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on May 30, 2021, 07:41:54 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Craig DeShong on May 31, 2021, 03:30:25 AM
This model is absolutely impressive in its current state; can’t imagine the show-stopper it will be when you finish it.
 :popcorn:  :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 31, 2021, 02:46:40 PM
This model is absolutely impressive in its current state; can’t imagine the show-stopper it will be when you finish it.
 :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
I shifted the model so far on the bench, its already getting to be a heavy beast! Once done, going to need the elves to call in some friends to move it.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 31, 2021, 02:55:36 PM
After getting the blanks for the plunger top caps trimmed to size, the center holes were bored on the lathe then the corner holes drilled on the mill:
(https://i.postimg.cc/52LPDrwM/IMG-9443.jpg)
Test fit on one of the plungers
(https://i.postimg.cc/QMD6DqbK/IMG-9444.jpg)
Then started in milling the top/bottom faces for the recess pattern, first the sides at 90 degrees
(https://i.postimg.cc/85KwhgVL/IMG-9445.jpg)
then angled the vise for the diagonals - took two setups, since the blocks are not square, so the lines are at 43 degrees
(https://i.postimg.cc/W3bXFbx2/IMG-9446.jpg)
Ready to loctite and cross pin the blocks onto the plungers - still need to round the corners on the sander.
(https://i.postimg.cc/LsVx8ZCC/IMG-9450.jpg)
I also got the two platforms cut out of sheet aluminum, these platforms will sit between the pumps on top of the intake pipes. They gave acess to the pumps and the seals around the tops of them. There will also be stairs leading up to the platforms. The bottoms of the panels are supported by angle stock riveted in place with some 1mm brass rivets. Slow going to cut the angle stock so it can be folded for the corners, but its faster to handle one piece than dealing with four separate short pieces. Now to make 7 more of those and the longer cross pieces that go across the middle

(https://i.postimg.cc/Wzd88Y2C/IMG-9449.jpg)
Closer view, also shows the rivet squeezer in the background

(https://i.postimg.cc/Pf72JHyj/IMG-9448.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Firebird on May 31, 2021, 05:49:41 PM
Hi Chris

I'm still following along  :popcorn: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:

Can you show a little more of the rivet squeezer please.

Cheers

Rich
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on May 31, 2021, 08:45:50 PM
Hi Chris

I'm still following along  :popcorn: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:

Can you show a little more of the rivet squeezer please.

Cheers

Rich
Sure thing Rich, very handy tool. I built mine after seeing one in another thread here several years ago. This one has an added extension option for getting into tight spaces. It will appear in my column in Live Steam sometime in the next couple years, not sure when. In the meantime, I've attached the plan sheet for it. The dimensions on the U shaped head can be changed to suit your bar stock, but the spacing on the holes for the moving parts should be done as is, they take some care to lay out. The top threaded anvil can be run in and out to suit the thickness of the material. It works with rivets that have one end formed already, and it squeezes down and forms the other end - cut the shank of the rivets to stick out a diameter or so. Works great on brass and copper rivets, never tried it on annealed steel but should work on small ones okay. Very handy device, easy to make. Enjoy!
Chris
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on May 31, 2021, 10:29:00 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Liked the plunger top pics! Must be massive things in the real engines.  :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 01, 2021, 12:35:57 AM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Liked the plunger top pics! Must be massive things in the real engines.  :cheers:
The real plungers themselves are 37-1/2" in diameter and nearly 7 feet long (stroke is 66 inches), the top caps are over 14" thick and almost 4 feet across! Not solid blocks, all are hollow castings, but quite thick. Its amazing to see all the massive pieces on these engines, then the much more modest sizes on the Corliss valve levers/linkages.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 02, 2021, 02:51:03 PM
Once the first angle bar was made to check the distances between cuts, the rest were pretty quick to mark and cut, remembering that half of them need to be mirrored for the opposite corners.
(https://i.postimg.cc/BQ0StLn2/IMG-9451.jpg)
They were all drilled and riveted like the first one. Here is one of the platforms set in place on the intake pipes to show where it will go. One of those parts that is not very visible, but still worth putting in. The narrow end facing the camera will get a stairway from the base plate up to the platform.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Wbw2ZNdC/IMG-9453.jpg)
And now the really 'fun' part - bending up the railing and installing the posts into the platform. Not too hard, but I have to remember to run the railings onto the posts before bending (had to heat and straighten in one spot where I forgot, the post cap wont go around the tight bends  :hammerbash: ).  Assembling all the posts, with bottom caps, into the holes took some fussing, cussing, and retries!
(https://i.postimg.cc/9QXct6TM/IMG-9456.jpg)
One railing on, three to go (two platforms with two railings each)...  Good practice for the upper platforms where they will show more, at least those dont have all the jogs in and out, just gentle arcs at the ends.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on June 02, 2021, 05:21:00 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Thanks for the plunger and plunger top cap info Chris! I have a lot of respect for the designers and builders of the full size engine all those years ago. Great progress on your engine!  :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on June 02, 2021, 08:50:03 PM
Lots of little fiddly work on those , Chris, but it's all those details that make the model stand out!  :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 02, 2021, 10:21:00 PM
Thanks guys, this afternoon got the second railing on the first platform. Had to trim a couple of corners and edges to get the platform to fit down between the pump chambers. Plenty of room down in place, but it wouldn't quite get there with the railings on. Just minor trimming, sort of like getting a  piece of furniture around that last corner of the hallway.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 03, 2021, 09:21:51 PM
Catching up on the railings - here is a picture of one platform with the railings, one without (one of its railings is on now, and the first one has had a coat of paint since this was taken)

(https://i.postimg.cc/3NyR0T3y/IMG-9457.jpg)
Last night I was thinking over how to make the jig for the stairs, when it hit me - I have a 3D printer now!   :slap:   So, printed up the four stairs for leading up to the platforms:
(https://i.postimg.cc/vTpmWNm0/IMG-9459.jpg)
Also designed up the freestanding ladder that was used in several places at the pump station, going to print a couple of them. And printed up the elbows and tees for the air lines that will go between the holes near the top in the force chambers above the check valves. All six of the chambers were connected by this piping to balance the pressures and help damp the movements. I found the patent for the design of these Holly engines, and it calls out this setup. I had originally thought that they pumped in pressurized air to these chambers, but not so, they just had small valves top and bottom to check the level of the water and to drain some out/add air at the top if needed.

(https://i.postimg.cc/1t7Xzt1h/IMG-9460.jpg)
These parts need a spritz of paint and the straight pipe sections between the fittings. I had seen in the plans that there was an air pump, and had assumed it was to pump air into the force chambers. More digging in the plans and photos I took, and I finally figured out where the pump was - it was on that little half-circle at the side of the LP pump base plate. The 'air pump' was actually an air-pressure-powered water pump! They took the oscillating pressure from the force chambers, and ran a small air pipe down to a pump on the floor that was used to scavange up water from the floor around the engine, water that may have leaked from pipes, from the pump seals, and condensation from the air on cold water pipes. The air pump was a large diameter piston with just a few inches of movement, and had a chamber with check valves underneath, with openings around the edge. It was a floor-mounted sump pump essentially. It turns out that these pumps were never installed on the Ward Station pump engines, since they had floor drains that could run off to the local storm sewer lines, so no need for the pumps. This explains why they showed the parts of the pump in the drawings, but there was no evidence of them (no pipes/fittings leading to them from the force chambers) other than the provision for the mounting bolts on the edge of the LP pump base plate - they were part of the standard pump engine but not installed on the ones at this location. Fun detective work! I had spent a lot of time looking in the photos for the air pumps, finally checked the mounting bolt pattern and dimensions on the plans and spotted that they fit the bolt holes in that base plate, then it all clicked - the plans are of each individual parts in this giant engine, there is no general-assembly drawing of the entire thing, just subassembly drawings for things like the Corliss valving.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: gary.a.ayres on June 03, 2021, 11:13:59 PM
Amazing progress since I last checked in.

Very impressive!

 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Roger B on June 06, 2021, 12:26:56 PM
Lot's of wonderful details as ever  :DrinkPint:  :DrinkPint:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 07, 2021, 03:53:08 AM
Thanks guys!


Tonight I got back home, took a trip up to Boston Friday to see the waterworks museum which has several different huge steam pumping engines. Awesome place and engines. After taking the tour I spent a while talking with the director of the museum, asking if they had any drawings of the engines and showing him what I am building of the Holly engine. By the end of the conversation, he gave me a set of pdf scans of all 58 pages of measured drawings of thier Allis triple pumping engine! I had started out offering to buy a set of whatever they had, especially the Leavitte engine, but those were lost in a partial building collapse years ago. With the Allis plans, I am going to create a 3D CAD model and make them some animations from it. Truly awesome to get these plans, should keep me busy for a while. This engine is similar to the Holly but smaller.


Then Saturday I went up to the logging museum in Maine, spent the day driving the gas Lombards and helping mount thier marine engine on bed logs. Sunday went down to the WW&F Railway museum where Ron Ginger gave me a great tour, and over to the Maine Locomotive Works to see thier current project. Back home in the afternoon, lotsa driving in a few days, about 1300 miles, but so so so nice to get out and see old friends!


Pictures to follow tomorrow!!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: gary.a.ayres on June 07, 2021, 09:08:14 AM
Fabulous!

Sounds like you have been in Crueby Heaven!

 :LittleAngel:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: MJM460 on June 07, 2021, 12:25:44 PM
Will be interesting to compare the two designs. 

Just as well they were able to provide the drawings, you would not want to become idle with only a few weeks to finish the Holly!

It sounds like a great trip.  Great way to celebrate release from lockdown.

MJM460

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RonGinger on June 07, 2021, 12:52:31 PM
I greatly enjoyed showing Chris around the WW&F Ry museum where I am currently helping to build a full size replica of an 1894 coach. Its a very satisfying project, even if its in 1:1 scale. https://forum.wwfry.org/index.php/topic,2944.0.html (https://forum.wwfry.org/index.php/topic,2944.0.html) is the forum link to our build log.

If anyone else is visiting this part of the Maine coat I am always happy to meet fellow modelers and show them around.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 07, 2021, 01:03:08 PM
.... with only a few weeks to finish the Holly! .....

MJM460
Um, err, going to be a BUSY couple weeks!    :paranoia:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 07, 2021, 08:06:40 PM
As promised, here are some pictures and video from the trip. At the Boston Waterworks Museum, they have several very large steam pumping engines. Starting with the Allis engine, which is similar in size and design to the Holly engine I am building:
(https://i.postimg.cc/HLhVvsWL/IMG-2294a.jpg)
The pumps housings visible on the Holly are below the floor level on this engine, so it does not look as big but it is pretty close in size. Several interesting differences - on this engine, the piston disc is connected to the crosshead with two piston rods rather than one, each about halfway from the center to the edge. I have never seen this on any engine before, not sure why they did that - anyone know? Also, on the Holly the side shaft with the eccentrics is driven by a diagonal shaft with bevel gears at each end. On the Allis, they used a pair of cranks, offset 90 degrees from each other, one at each end of the engine - you can see one in the above photo on the corner closest to the camera. The plans call it a Lay shaft, in the other thread where we discussed a similar setup its called a Lee shaft - might be a regional name? In looking through the plans, I have seen that it uses a Corliss style rotary valve for the steam and exhaust on the HP cylinder and the steam input on the IP cylinder, the IP exhaust and both on the LP cylinder are poppet valves. The rest of the arrangement is quite similar to the Holly engine.

Speaking of Holly - here is a picture of an engine that was at that station at one time:
(https://i.postimg.cc/KYy9kxhR/IMG-2386a.jpg)
This two cylinder Corliss engine by Worthington is at the museum now, in the background the brown engine is the Leavitt engine. The light gray tanks on the left are the pump and force chambers for the Worthington, the squarish blocks in the foreground are the compound cylinders for it.

(https://i.postimg.cc/BnFYntyr/IMG-2382a.jpg)
The Leavitt engine is really interesting - to make it fit the existing building, Leavitt designed a very interesting layout with the conrods driving a rocking arm with several lobes, one driving the pump at an angle, on the other side it drove the crankshaft with the flywheels on it.

(https://i.postimg.cc/wBcwDZ9F/IMG-2416a.jpg)
In the diagram, the flywheel is shown by the dotted green arc on the right next to the person outline. The pistons are vertical in the center, pushing/pulling on the rocker arm, and the pumps are on the left. Rather than pressure-activated check valves, it has check valves operated by levers that look a lot like corliss linkages, which keeps the pumps smaller as well. Up on the engine, I got this picture through a overlook window showing the valve cams rather than typical eccentrics, using a follower wheel on the right inside the arm with the vertical slot. Very intriguing setup all round. This engine worked, but it ran at 50 to 60 RPM, rather than the 12 to 15 of the Allis engine. They said it tended to vibrate a lot, and had reliability problems from all the side stresses. Its motion reminds me a lot of the Monitor engine, which also had an unusual design to fit in a cramped space of the ships hull.

(https://i.postimg.cc/kXzYCWjN/IMG-2442a.jpg)

Here are links to a couple videos (not my postings) - they are shown on screens in the museum:
2kzcEAG5TZ4VsjV3a2xw-YOverall a fascinating museum, well worth the visit if you are in the Boston area. Certain days they offer a special tour with access onto the catwalks and pump levels, I am hoping to get back when that tour is available.

Alsoo spent a day at the logging museum with my old favorites, the Lombard haulers/trucks. The steam powered one
(https://i.postimg.cc/Dzgt7842/IMG-2484a.jpg)
the dump truck
(https://i.postimg.cc/5t1hcw07/IMG-2491a.jpg)
and the flatbed truck
(https://i.postimg.cc/1t3bXsDD/IMG-2509a-JPG.jpg)
Great fun to drive those around again!  Also in the morning we got this marine engine off its side, was laying on tires, and up on some wood beds:
(https://i.postimg.cc/rmZ3t393/IMG-2511a.jpg)
and fired up this Fairbanks Morse hit/miss engine
(https://i.postimg.cc/8cF3d4K5/IMG-2486a.jpg)
No pictures from the WW&F museum, but here is their website:
https://www.wwfry.org/
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 07, 2021, 08:28:49 PM
Given the trip over the weekend, not much to show on the Holly model - did get the stairs and ladders painted and the second platform installed:
(https://i.postimg.cc/prJH5qpF/IMG-9461.jpg)
The wooden ladders are portable, like on the real one I am going to put one of them up on the crankshaft-level platform.

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: gary.a.ayres on June 07, 2021, 09:16:39 PM
Fabulous machines, and the quality of those animations is second to none.

Must have been a great trip - I hope you rounded off each day of it with a bottle or two of the finest ale!

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 07, 2021, 09:19:09 PM
Fabulous machines, and the quality of those animations is second to none.

Must have been a great trip - I hope you rounded off each day of it with a bottle or two of the finest ale!

 :cheers:
By the end of each day I was too tired to go out for one!  Settled for a cookie and putting my feet up in the hotel room.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 07, 2021, 09:24:15 PM
After a nice read/nap out on the porch to recharge, I got the air pipes fitted to the force chambers. These are simple pipes that connect each of the six chambers, no valves or pumps involved. The pipes are some steel rod cut to length, the fittings were 3D printed with the stairs/ladders. Once the engine beds are made and installed I'll put some glue or epoxy on the joints with the force chambers - for now, they are just a tight fit in the holes, and I dont want to crack a glued joint when moving things around for the engine beds - cant put the screws in for good yet, the top plates across the vertical columns will be taken on/off a few more times.
(https://i.postimg.cc/JhtMYfh7/IMG-9462.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/SK5qBgX6/IMG-9463.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on June 08, 2021, 01:49:35 AM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Glad you enjoyed the road trip! Lots of cool machinery to be seen and worked on.  :cheers:

I was agitated watching the Leavitt engine animation - it triggered my machine design spidey sense about vibration and unbalanced forces in varying directions. :thinking: :headscratch: :noidea: I'm sure Mr Leavitt did the due diligence at the time, but thinking about the vibration modes may cause some insomnia here. :insane: I may crack a few Elfensteiner stubbies your shop elves sent me while you were away, to slow down the three overspeeding brain cells. (I suspect the shop elves broke into the beer storage locker when you were out) :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 08, 2021, 02:03:01 AM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Glad you enjoyed the road trip! Lots of cool machinery to be seen and worked on.  :cheers:

I was agitated watching the Leavitt engine animation - it triggered my machine design spidey sense about vibration and unbalanced forces in varying directions. :thinking: :headscratch: :noidea: I'm sure Mr Leavitt did the due diligence at the time, but thinking about the vibration modes may cause some insomnia here. :insane: I may crack a few Elfensteiner stubbies your shop elves sent me while you were away, to slow down the three overspeeding brain cells. (I suspect the shop elves broke into the beer storage locker when you were out) :Lol:
They did say on the tour that the Leavitt engine was prone to breakdown caused by the vibrations and the extreme angles on the pumps. No way to balance that setup, and it was run at 50+ rpm, quick for a big pump. The holly and allis ran under 20 rpm. The Monitor engine was even called a vibratory engine, and this one has even more mass in the rocker and levers out the sides. But, he did get it to fit the existing building, which he was handed as a constraint. When they added the Allis engine, they put up a new room on the building sized to fit the engine.


And lob one of those Elfenstieners back this way, the elves keep hiding mine!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on June 08, 2021, 02:21:36 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 08, 2021, 08:44:31 PM
Almost done with the pump level on the Holly engine. I got the hoses installed on the output pipes, and the Y pipe bolted on the output side. Just need to make the supports that go from the tops of the pump chambers up to the engine beds - these beams hold the pump chambers down when lifting the plungers, and support the middle of the engine beds when pushing the plungers down.
(https://i.postimg.cc/kMpKy8fS/IMG-9465.jpg)
So, the shop elves got busy cutting down the bar stock for the supports and also the engine beds - going to have to stress relieve them in the oven, and might as well do the lot in one heating. Here they are cutting the bars to rough length. As you can see, they are not too bright about where they hang out while I am running the saw (they cant reach the switch, probably a good thing)
(https://i.postimg.cc/CK7fnfRz/IMG-9467.jpg)
And the foreseeable result when the cut was done....
(https://i.postimg.cc/NM026fXb/IMG-9468.jpg)
They think that O.S.H.A. stands for Order Several Halfpints'a Ale!   :Lol:
After taking all the bars down to the kitchen in the service elevator for baking (500F for an hour and cooling), they got out the Lombard Truck to take them back to the workshop again
(https://i.postimg.cc/YSMWSxq5/IMG-9470.jpg)
where they unloaded them and put them up on the bench to study the plans some more
(https://i.postimg.cc/sDGSHXNN/IMG-9472.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/mgx9v4x2/IMG-9473.jpg)
While they were looking at the plans, I got the first of the support beams roughed out on the mill - the top end is a little long, will trim that to close fit once the engine beds are done.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sgpWyLyP/IMG-9474.jpg)
The engine beds are going to be fun to machine, here is what they look like:

(https://i.postimg.cc/k4ZGWNqX/Engine-Beds.jpg)
The cranks spin in the center openings, and note that there are no bearings at the outer ends but rather open cranks. The main parts of the beds are going to be cut from 3/4" thick x 3" wide bar, with another 3/4" square bar added underneath the bearings to form the part that hanges down in the center. Another piece will be added for the areas where the bearings stick up above. So, good reason for the elves to be studying those plans!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: tvoght on June 08, 2021, 09:51:05 PM
If shop elves are subject to cartoon physics, then that guy must have hung there for awhile after the brass dropped, until he finally realized what happened.  --Tim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 08, 2021, 10:54:20 PM
If shop elves are subject to cartoon physics, then that guy must have hung there for awhile after the brass dropped, until he finally realized what happened.  --Tim
So funny when he holds up the little sign before he falls.... 

(https://i.postimg.cc/nzkMMsh0/Image7.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RReid on June 09, 2021, 12:28:28 AM
This ol' world needs more elves to lighten things up a little. Thanks for the laugh Chris!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 09, 2021, 06:08:25 PM
This morning got the rest of the vertical supports shaped and started drilling the mounting holes in the ends. After that is done I'll get the corners eased on the sander, and then start on the engine beds.
(https://i.postimg.cc/y62PCPdV/IMG-9475.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 09, 2021, 11:32:01 PM
Got the rest of the holes in the vertical pump supports drilled, the corners sanded, and a coat of paint on. Here is one pair set in place - after the engine beds are made the top ends will be trimmed to fit the space. Given that there are SO many pieces between  all these parts (engine beds, top plates, frame legs, base plates, pump bodies, brackets) I don't want to depend on the plan dimensions for a close fit, better to wait and measure to be sure. They should be very close as per plans, but all it takes is a few thou out to leave a gap.

(https://i.postimg.cc/VkbtzQJv/IMG-9476.jpg)
This evening I am working with my lead shop elf foreman to plan out the order of milling the blank plates for the engine beds. Getting it written down so the Elfenstiener hangovers dont make us forget! 
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on June 10, 2021, 12:00:25 AM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

It's looking great Chris!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 10, 2021, 12:10:31 AM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

It's looking great Chris!
Thanks CNR, I think it's a ways ahead of my original thinking timewise, the printed housings really took a lot of time off my guestimates. Rest of the model is all metal, so the printer will be used for more submarine parts and shop elf furniture. ... Hey, how'd that get in there?! Dang elves have hacked my password again!   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on June 10, 2021, 05:28:11 AM
That is looking great, Chris!
It's going to be packed in there, isn't it?!

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 10, 2021, 03:55:44 PM
That is looking great, Chris!
It's going to be packed in there, isn't it?!

Kim
Yeah, its going to be a tight fit to get the rods between the pump plungers and the crossheads in, as well as the bolts for holding the engine beds and top plates in - not a lot of finger room in between all the frames and pipes!  Here is an old photo, I think this one was from the factory where they built the engines at the Cincinatti water works, different brand but similar design. not a lot of space in there!

(https://i.postimg.cc/QNwPhMr1/Holly-Pumping-Engine-Parts-Photo-2.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 10, 2021, 03:59:38 PM
So, with the pump level of the model done, time to start in on the actual engine!   :whoohoo:
This morning I got started milling the recess on the ends of the engine bed plates, to let them fit over the plates that sit on top of the pump frames. Those plates take bolts from underneath to connect the frames, and from the top to connect to the beds. I think I have the sequence to mill the shapes in worked out, time will tell! There are three of these bed plates to make, so will do the same operations on all three before moving on to the next step. The bed plates are too wide for my normal mill vise so I had to break out the bigger one.
(https://i.postimg.cc/fRhYwcPm/IMG-9478.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 11, 2021, 05:53:33 PM
Yesterday got the rest of the recesses in the bottom of the bed plates, then laid out and drilled holes in the center for attaching to the faceplate for cutting the radii on the ends later. To index the plates in the vise, I lined up the edge of the recess with the back corner of the vise using a parallel plate, then found the center of the section between the recesses and the sides using a center finder (foreground)
(https://i.postimg.cc/qqNSxGmq/IMG-9479.jpg)
Once the center was found and the handwheels zeroed, I could swap between plates by lining up that back corner of the recess to the vise edge. Drilled the rest of the faceplate holes in each one.
(https://i.postimg.cc/L4Wr6rX1/IMG-9480.jpg)
Now I am going through each plate and drilling the mounting holes for the upper and lower frames. I took the time to make up a road map sheet for all the moves, visible at upper right, starting at the center hole, around the pattern to all the holes. My version of CNC - Count Number Cranks, with the roadmap giving the number of full turns and what handwheel tick to stop on for each hole. Then back to the center hole to repeat for the other side, and repeat all that for each end of each plate.
(https://i.postimg.cc/cCPj98jm/IMG-9481.jpg)
One end of one plate down, five more ends to go...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 13, 2021, 03:07:48 PM
Next step on the engine beds is to mill in the recesses to form the raised paids on the top surface. After measuring out and drawing on the outlines, I went around the edges with a small end mill to leave just a small radius on the inside corners. The bar across the center between the corner pads was outlined with straight lines for now, later on those will be changed to arcs centered on the middle of the plate - will do that when set up to put the arcs on the ends of the plates.

(https://i.postimg.cc/kX9cZJwn/IMG-9482.jpg)
Once all the outlines were done, switched to a larger diameter end mill and started removing the background, starting at the ends.
(https://i.postimg.cc/VLRRPxHX/IMG-9483.jpg)
then moved the plate out so that I could start the center section from the side - wanted to leave the cutter depth set throughout.
(https://i.postimg.cc/VkZWdjw6/IMG-9484.jpg)
There was enough reach to get partway past the center, then turned the plate around to get the other end. So far have two of the three bed plates up to this stage.
(https://i.postimg.cc/mggSLm0J/IMG-9485.jpg)
The raised section in the center will be cut away to leave the opening for the crank, so no need to recess that as well. Next up, I am going set up the rotary table to mill the arcs on the ends of the plates and put the arcs into the raised sections between the corner pads. After that can cut out the center openings, and start work on adding the bars on the sides for the lower arcs and the bearing blocks on the top sides. Lots to go on these parts!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RReid on June 13, 2021, 04:18:58 PM
Hi Chris, looks good so far. Are you counting cranks, or just working to the lines?
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on June 13, 2021, 04:48:33 PM
That's a great start on those engine beds.  There's going to be a lot of steps involved in those parts!

Enjoying following along   :popcorn: :popcorn:

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 13, 2021, 06:43:14 PM
Hi Chris, looks good so far. Are you counting cranks, or just working to the lines?
Counting cranks - the lines are there as a double-check for miscounts and for confidence that I am not way off.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Don1966 on June 13, 2021, 06:54:32 PM
Looking great Dog, but I have to ask if you have a brass stockpile in your house that stuff is at a premium right now. Always outstanding work Chris…..  :Love:


 :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 13, 2021, 07:18:25 PM
Looking great Dog, but I have to ask if you have a brass stockpile in your house that stuff is at a premium right now. Always outstanding work Chris…..  :Love:


 :drinking-41:
Don
Yeah, prices are up, I've bought enough for the next several parts so far, and I buy 'drops' from Yarde Metals of roundbar that are about 1/3 the normal price, oddball sizes, usually about 3' long, that I use for the larger parts. This flatbar had to be bought at normal prices, though the price varied a LOT from different suppliers, this time Speedy Metals had the best price by far, maybe they had it from a prior pricepoint. I try to keep a stock of common sizes to avoid buying short lengths for a specific use, longer lengths tend to work out cheaper per pound, and get used eventually. Also, the income from my articles in Live Steam pays more than enough to cover all my projects, so I dont care so much about price!

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 13, 2021, 10:07:38 PM
Got started on shaping the ends of the engine bed plates - they are flat at the corners next to the frame mounting pads, then arc out in the center to give a little extra room for the cranks. The ends will be angled in, but I started with the mill head vertical to set the length. The parts are screwed one at a time to a faceplate mounted on the rotary table.
(https://i.postimg.cc/mZdWjgQH/IMG-9486.jpg)
When all the ends had the shape milled in, I then tilted the mill headstock a whopping 2 degrees - just visible against the mill column on the left of the headstock.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZK2tkssY/IMG-9487.jpg)
To know when I had advanced in to the initial shape, I drew on the face first with a marker:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Nf5qzv4P/IMG-9488.jpg)
Then took several light passes, here it is halfway with part of the marking gone:
(https://i.postimg.cc/xdVw8JSW/IMG-9489.jpg)
Another couple passes and all the marker was gone, same process on the other flat end and the arched center.
(https://i.postimg.cc/vZnRG7Cr/IMG-9490.jpg)
The sides of the beds stay vertical, its just the ends that they angled in. So, on to finishing the rest of the ends....
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on June 14, 2021, 05:17:39 AM
Is just the flat part of the end angled? Or is the curved part angled at 2o also?  Hard to tell in the picture...

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 14, 2021, 12:16:37 PM
Is just the flat part of the end angled? Or is the curved part angled at 2o also?  Hard to tell in the picture...

Kim


Hi Kim,  the curved part is angled as well. Just 2 degrees, but it does change the look, I was surprised that it's noticeable, at least in person. In the picture its upside down.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on June 14, 2021, 02:01:30 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 14, 2021, 04:54:02 PM
Hi CNR! 


Got the rest of the ends angled in on the bed plates, now turned them over to put the arcs in the recesses on the top surface...
(https://i.postimg.cc/qBwxYGHZ/IMG-9491.jpg)
Next? Well, I need to cut the arc in the opening in the center,  tap the mounting holes on the corner pads,cut the center opening out, and get things prepped for the bearing blocks and the bottom arched blocks...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: sid pileski on June 14, 2021, 05:21:16 PM
Chris- My wife and I visited the Boston pumping station this weekend. They are pretty amazing engines to see in person. We were able to do the "below and above" deck tour.
So, we got to clime up on the Leavitt engine, and go below to actually explore the  bottom side of the Allis engine.
Our Docent was very knowledgeable. (I forget his name) He was in pumps all his working career. 
Only one thing that I kind of disagreed with him about.
In the pictures below, you can see a little gear that engages one of the flywheels for barring the engine. It is on a shaft that has a larger gear that engages a worm gear, to a shaft with a universal joint.
He claimed that this was added later t drive an auxiliary oil pump to lube the engine. I disagreed, pointing out that, one of the reasons you use a worm drive is so that it can't be back driven, as he was describing. additionally, let's assume that the flywheel is 20' in dia, and the small gear is 1.0' in dia (it was actually smaller) at an engine speed of 50 RPM, the shaft would be turning 1000 RPM. Not even taking into account the next gear and worm (if it could be driven) the final shaft would be flying.
Looking at the lack of and substantial bearings on the shafts, I wasn't buying it.
I believe what it really was for was barring the engine with either an axillary engine as is quite common or an electric motor, later in it's life.
The designer did put in a method of barring the engine originally (not using the flywheel), but you had to clime up on top of the engine and spin, essentially, a ship's wheel.

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 14, 2021, 07:15:55 PM
Hi Sid,
I really want to get back there on a day when I can take that extended tour! Unfortunately I could only be there Friday when it was not offered, hoping to be there a day it is next time.

I agree with you on that worm gear - no way at all it could drive a pump from the flywheel, you can't backdrive a worm gear as the docent claimed, that looks like an add-on for a motor they may have used to drive the flywheel around for demos after it was out of service - it also has no way to disengage it like a normal barring setup would.  When I was talking to the director there he mentioned at one point that they would like to set up the Allis engine to be driven by an electric motor for demonstrations.
Glad you were able to get in there, it is a very nice museum, great to have the several different types of engines all together.
Chris :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: sid pileski on June 14, 2021, 08:17:47 PM
Chris- I thought about the demo thing too, but in their info and history of the engines, it was never mentioned that these were anything more than working engines.
When they were put out of service, that was it. Now, this particular engine, as you and they pointed out was troublesome and I think was off line when the Allis and Worthington were working. So maybe it was a demo drive.
I should have looked closer, but I don't think that gear was engaged to the flywheel.
BTW, down below, there is another single  vertical engine that they used for generating electricity. Between the Worthington and Allis is the remains of a switch panel.
They thought it was probably DC generated. (in that time period, probably).

Sid
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 14, 2021, 08:29:38 PM
Chris- I thought about the demo thing too, but in their info and history of the engines, it was never mentioned that these were anything more than working engines.
When they were put out of service, that was it. Now, this particular engine, as you and they pointed out was troublesome and I think was off line when the Allis and Worthington were working. So maybe it was a demo drive.
I should have looked closer, but I don't think that gear was engaged to the flywheel.
BTW, down below, there is another single  vertical engine that they used for generating electricity. Between the Worthington and Allis is the remains of a switch panel.
They thought it was probably DC generated. (in that time period, probably).

Sid
In your picture it looks like the small gear on the shaft holding the larger worm gear is engaged with the openings in the flywheel - or is there a space between? Or is that not the flywheel?


I didn't notice the other single vertical engine - I was so busy gawping at the big ones that I must have missed it! Did you get a picture of it?
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: sid pileski on June 14, 2021, 08:51:27 PM
Chris- that is one of the flywheels. I did not get a better picture. I can't tell from my own photo if it was engaged or not, but I didn't think it was.
The generator engine was below on the pump level. So, you would not see it if you did not do the tour to the "basement".

Sid
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 14, 2021, 09:03:00 PM
Chris- that is one of the flywheels. I did not get a better picture. I can't tell from my own photo if it was engaged or not, but I didn't think it was.
The generator engine was below on the pump level. So, you would not see it if you did not do the tour to the "basement".

Sid
Gotcha!  One more reason to get back there for the better tour. I should be going up to Maine again this fall for the logging museum fall event (looks like that may happen this year), and may be able to work in a trip up to the old logging camp/locomotives way up north with a couple guys from the  museum. If so, maybe I can work out the trip so I can hit the waterworks museum on a Wednesday when they have the special tours - the logging event would be on the saturday and sunday so those tour days are out. Have to see what the fall tour schedule is, they dont have anything in the fall posted on their website schedule yet.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 14, 2021, 09:51:57 PM
And got started on cutting the ends of the center opening through the bed plates - this should be the last operation for these parts on the rotary table. I used a small end mill to give the inside corners a small radius, which meant that I had to finish the cuts from the other side of the plates.
(https://i.postimg.cc/fTzcZSfq/IMG-9493.jpg)
Two plates up to this point, one more to go...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on June 15, 2021, 11:47:31 AM
Hi Chris and Sid, That sure looks like the working end of a barring engine to me,  in the Boston pics. The shown worm and worm gear with its' low helix angle would not back drive.

Some barring engines on large steam engines moved the shaft and pinion into and out of mesh with the flywheel with a swinging lever / block pivoting around the engine crankshaft or secondary shaft, with the engine fixed to the frame.

The one in the pics looks like it maybe slid the whole subframe and engine / gears assy in and out to mesh and unmesh the pinion with the flywheel.

Great to see the pics and diagrams of the Boston engines.  :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: sid pileski on June 15, 2021, 02:57:15 PM
Wish I had time to take better pictures!

Maybe when Chris gets back there, he can solve the mystery definitively!!!

Any other members up for the challenge?

Sid
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 15, 2021, 03:51:25 PM
This morning finished up cutting the openings in the center of the engine bed plates. Same kind of procedure as doing the arcs at the ends, just straight cuts. Couple of passes to get down to the depth of the end mill, then flipped the plate over to do the other side and connect up the slots.
(https://i.postimg.cc/HL3C64Mm/IMG-9494.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/C1QpghJ6/IMG-9495.jpg)
First one set on top of the pump frames to have a look at the shapes, quite a difference!
(https://i.postimg.cc/NMMvS98H/IMG-9496.jpg)
Next up is to attach blocks that will be shaped to the arched lower supports under the crankshaft. I think I will attach these with some screws hidden under the pump chamber support beams, in the center of the arches, along with some loctite for good measure.
(https://i.postimg.cc/J0HV7f27/IMG-9497.jpg)
Once the screw holes are drilled/tapped, will need to set up the rotary table and a tooling plate to offset the blocks to mill in the arch shape on the outside. There are flats projecting down in the center to connect to the vertical beams, and also to take the lower end nuts for the bearing blocks up above.
(https://i.postimg.cc/L83XMPPC/Engine-Bed-Lower-View.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on June 15, 2021, 09:07:07 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 15, 2021, 10:34:19 PM
Productive afternoon, between read/naps out on the porch.  Got the arch blocks drilled/tapped to screw them onto the bed plates:
(https://i.postimg.cc/kgF9LdSW/IMG-9498.jpg)
then made up a jig to hold them the right distance out from center on the rotary table - used one of the cut-outs from the center of the bed plates, was just the right size. Laid out and cut the box shape into the outside edge of two of the blocks - the two end ones have support flats for the vertical beams to the pumps, the other four will also have bosses for the bearing block bolts. These two are simpler, so I am starting with them to work out the procedure.
(https://i.postimg.cc/bwjp6vZz/IMG-9499.jpg)
The two holes you see inside the box are where the screws are, they will be covered by the vertical beams.  Then comes the fiddly bit, machining in the arc shape without hitting the center box, and without going too far towards the narrow ends. At the ends, the shape will reverse the curve to blend in with the bottom of the plates at the ends of the beds. Those reversed arcs will have to be cut in later with the rotary table on its side. In this picture, one end has been shaped down, several passes, lowering the mill head each time, and rotating the rotab to cut in the arc. I am taking shallow nibbles to avoid putting too much force onto the fixture, just those two 4-40 screws in the center hold it in place.

(https://i.postimg.cc/FKTvsgDR/IMG-9501.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 16, 2021, 05:22:09 PM
Both ends arched on the first two of the blocks, and starting to mill out the other four parts. These four have bosses at the corners of the center plate, so a few more moves to lay it out. I'm going to mill all four like this, then start the arching cuts. Final cuts on the thin ends will have to be done after laying the rotary table out horizontally. The bosses will be rounded on the corners with a rotary tool last.

(https://i.postimg.cc/q70LGq9V/IMG-9502.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: gary.a.ayres on June 16, 2021, 11:08:42 PM
Great development. Some masterful skills in evidence here.

Good job that elf wasn't sitting having lunch on a girder 900 feet above the streets of Manhattan when you cut it though!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 16, 2021, 11:23:02 PM
Great development. Some masterful skills in evidence here.

Good job that elf wasn't sitting having lunch on a girder 900 feet above the streets of Manhattan when you cut it though!
:Lol:
Just had flashback to the old movies like that - Harold Lloyd, etc. !
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 16, 2021, 11:27:11 PM
Some more done on the blocks with the bosses around the flat section - started the arc work with the small end mill, back and forth between cutting the arc and taking the sides of the bosses down vertically.

(https://i.postimg.cc/ZYFNhmsj/IMG-9503.jpg)
then switched to the larger cutter to take the ends down close - as mentioned before, the ends will be finished up with the rotab horizontal to flare the ends to match the existing plates.
(https://i.postimg.cc/qMJ3JF9r/IMG-9504.jpg)
Fiddly work, taking lots of breaks between parts to keep the concentration up with all the rotary etch-a-sketching!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 17, 2021, 05:24:02 PM
After finishing up on the middle portions of the arcs, set up the same holding fixture on the horizontal rotary table and did the ends, where they transition from the main arcs to reverse flare out again.
(https://i.postimg.cc/T1D7fMcq/IMG-9507.jpg)
Here is how they look on the engine beds
(https://i.postimg.cc/bYDFQkjD/IMG-9508.jpg)
And set on top of the pump frames. Looking good, next up will be to make the bearing blocks that sit on top of the engine beds.
(https://i.postimg.cc/44D2wyJ8/IMG-9510.jpg)
The shop elves like them, nice spot to sit for a mid-day beer!
(https://i.postimg.cc/TwS7zYn3/IMG-9509.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on June 17, 2021, 06:41:56 PM
Very nice, Chris!

Are you going to solder those blocks to the main unit? Or just leave them screwed together?  I'm assuming they were all one casting in the original?

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 17, 2021, 06:58:13 PM
Very nice, Chris!

Are you going to solder those blocks to the main unit? Or just leave them screwed together?  I'm assuming they were all one casting in the original?

Kim


Hi Kim,


Yup the original is one big casting. I am going to put some loctite in the joint and screw them together, these blocks won't have any side forces on them. For the bearing blocks on top, I am going to notch the top and side faces of the beds, and make the bearing holders with a slot on the bottom to hold them in place. Those will be through bolted when the bearing caps are in place so will be strong that way. Those through bolts will go through the lower arch blocks as well. Still a few weeks to go on these engine beds!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on June 17, 2021, 09:18:07 PM
Be sure to check all the oilways/steam ways in the engine in case Bucket Bob crumples up his beer can against his forehead and drops it in the nearest hole....... again....... :Lol:

Great progress!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 17, 2021, 09:35:44 PM
Be sure to check all the oilways/steam ways in the engine in case Bucket Bob crumples up his beer can against his forehead and drops it in the nearest hole....... again....... :Lol:

Great progress!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Its those stupid pull-tabs from the cans that he leaves everywhere - nasty on bare feet!   :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Don1966 on June 18, 2021, 03:01:11 AM
Dog, Dog, Dog, I don’t know what to say but……..I…………likeeeeeeee…..  :Love:



 :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 18, 2021, 03:46:04 AM
Dog, Dog, Dog, I don’t know what to say but……..I…………likeeeeeeee…..  :Love:



 :drinking-41:
Don
:wine1:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 18, 2021, 03:28:28 PM
The arch pieces are all loctited and screwed in place, so I can start notching in the side rails on the engine beds for the bearing blocks. Only four of the six side rails get bearing blocks, since the end cranks are single sided. The arch blocks need to be in place for this, since the sides of the rails will be notched as well for the flared portions of the bearing blocks, and the holes for the bearing caps go all the way through the bottom of the arches. Started with the top notches:

(https://i.postimg.cc/FFw0mmT1/IMG-9511.jpg)

The shapes on these parts emphasize the need for all the blocks to be stress relieved first - otherwise these blocks would have warped out of shape as the sides were cut!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Bearcar1 on June 18, 2021, 06:36:29 PM
Simply outstanding machine work! BRAVOO!!!  :DrinkPint:


BC1
Jim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 18, 2021, 07:31:57 PM
Simply outstanding machine work! BRAVOO!!!  :DrinkPint:


BC1
Jim
Thanks Jim!  Quite a fun project so far, going to be interesting to get the crankshaft made and the bearings all lined up. The crankshaft has a series of different diameters down its length, plus a bevel gear for the lay shaft take-off, and the three engine beds are all on seperate sets of legs around the pumps. Should be interesting!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 18, 2021, 08:59:08 PM
Finished cutting in the top recesses for the bearing blocks, and have cut the first side recess - the bearing blocks will have a u-shaped cutout in the bottom to fit over the engine bed side rails.
(https://i.postimg.cc/9Xk2XXw3/IMG-9512.jpg)

One outside recess cut, three to go, then can start in on the recesses on the inside faces of the side rails. Those will have to be cut from the top, and the curves left by the end mill undercut. It turns out when I laid them out on the bar stock that I did not have enough of the 1" bar for the bearing blocks, so I have ordered that, hope it is in sometime during next week. I checked around, and as usual the prices are all over the map, this time Midwest Steel Supply had the best (by far) price on the sizes I wanted. Amazing how much the prices vary, and how they change week to week.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on June 18, 2021, 10:30:23 PM
Watching on as always Chris ... :popcorn: :popcorn:

I reackon the mill spindle bearings have exceeded a normal rotational working life..... :lolb: .....
[by the 1/2 ton of shavings & swarf slithers we have seen]

Derek

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 18, 2021, 11:07:08 PM
Watching on as always Chris ...

I reackon the mill spindle bearings have exceeded a normal rotational working life..... .....
[by the 1/2 ton of shavings & swarf slithers we have seen]

Derek


   Not sure what their working life is, but I DID wear out the toggle switch for the power two years ago! It snapped off right at the level of the case - had to use needle nose pliers to turn it on and off till I could get a replacement. Sherline was great, called them to check on the part number for a new switch, they sent me a new one free.


Funny you should mention wearing out the bearings...


This spring I decided to set up for single-point threading, going to need a lot of threaded bits on this engine in a large variety of sizes, so that was my excuse. Yup, good reason, sticking to that story.   Setting up the threading attachment on the Sherline is a bit of a pain in the swarf, needs either removing the motor/speed control or using a smaller handwheel (which doesnt work that well, I tried that) so I priced out getting another lathe unit, short bed, without the motor/speed control. Turns out that adding the motor/speed control is not much more, a whole lot less than buying them seperately.    And, considering the amount of use I give these things, someday I am going to wear out one or the other, or both, so I just bought the basic lathe package and set the motor/control off on a shelf for future use.
Then set up the new lathe bed/headstock on a base, put the threading attachment on with the large handwheel, and no motor. Also made some modifications to the threading plates to add adjustable stops, since they have a tendancy to pivot apart under use (will show that when I get to threading parts soon).  All in all, it will save a LOT of setup time, and make it more likely that I will do single-point threading more often. And, when I DO wear out the headstock or motor, I have spares sitting there ready to go! Bound to happen at some point (but now that I have spares, maybe not! )

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 19, 2021, 06:28:28 PM
Dug through the tool drawer, and found a middling diameter but longer-fluted end mill, perfect to do the recesses on the inner sides of the engine bed plate rails - needed a nearly 1" reach down the sides, and small enough diameter to get the flat started in the inner corners. Still will need to cut back the radius in the corners with a rotary tool to let the bearing blocks fit in snugly.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sXjQpkSr/IMG-9513.jpg)
Here are the parts so far - the inner four side rails have the bearing block recesses milled in, the outer two stay as is.

(https://i.postimg.cc/4ynY0pB2/IMG-9516.jpg)
Next steps are to cut back those inner corners, and tap the mounting holes while I wait for the bar stock for the bearing blocks. I could also get started on the bearing block caps, the bar stock probably wont be here till later in the week. I've also gotten a little start on the CAD work for the Allis engine from the plans I got from the Boston Waterworks Museum - so far just the foundation blocks and bolts, but its a start on a long-term background project.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on June 19, 2021, 08:22:53 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RReid on June 19, 2021, 08:27:47 PM
Do you follow a written "play book" to keep all those machining steps in correct order, and with none forgotten?
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 19, 2021, 08:37:31 PM
Do you follow a written "play book" to keep all those machining steps in correct order, and with none forgotten?
Writing it as I go, right here in this thread!   :atcomputer:


I do try to think ahead on parts to figure out the order of things. Doesn't always work, and the scheme often changes partway through. Most parts it doesn't matter as much, but complex shapes like these need some planning.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steamer on June 19, 2021, 08:41:10 PM
OOOOOH you've made big progress!!!    sweeeet

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 20, 2021, 08:02:09 PM
While waiting for the bar stock for the bearing blocks themselves, I've started shaping the stock for the bearing caps, first getting the overall dimensions blocked in.
(https://i.postimg.cc/zf6PtHTz/IMG-9518.jpg)
Also got the last of the mounting holes in the engine bed plates tapped. And, after the sonversation with RReid yesterday about planning ahead, I remembered in time about the mounting points for the lay shaft gear housing, which sits on the side of the bearing block on the HP side of the IP bed. Same overall dimensions, but the shape of the recesses on the side of that block is different to allow mounting the gear housing - there is a big bevel gear on the crankshaft there which drives an angled shaft up to the lay shaft above, with a matching pair of bevel gears to run the lay shaft, with the eccentrics and governor on it, at the same speed as the crankshaft. Caught that just in time - so much for meticulous planning!!    :slap:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Craig DeShong on June 21, 2021, 02:14:37 AM
Looks great Chris, following along.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RReid on June 21, 2021, 03:13:18 AM
 :ThumbsUp: :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 21, 2021, 10:00:36 PM
Great to have you along!

Got the blanks for the bearing block caps all taken to overall size, and notched in for where they sit into the lower blocks.
(https://i.postimg.cc/RFJf93ts/IMG-9519.jpg)
and started drilling all the holes in the caps - four mounting bolt holes, center grease box cover hole, and four smaller holes near the mount holes for holding the cover of the side grease boxes. From the plan notations and cross sections, the caps were cast hollow, with the caps to make the inside cavities into holders for grease for the bearings. Looks like the bearing itself was made of multiple pieces dovedtailed together with rectangular gaps for the grease. For the model, it will be a typical split bearing, the dovetail/gap features are way too tiny to model in! It would mean 1/64" deep dovetails on a curved cross section. Nope!
(https://i.postimg.cc/zvmhfJSJ/IMG-9523.jpg)
Also took a few minutes with the rotary tool to square off the inside corners on the engine beds left from notching in the inside edges of the side rails the other day. The one on the left is before, on the right is after, shown by the blue arrows.
(https://i.postimg.cc/fyx9t6BY/IMG-9520.jpg)
Also visible on the right hand one is a milling boo-boo, above and to the right of the blue arrow you can see where the z-axis lock on the mill column unlocked partway through a pass and the cutter worked its way deeper. I've sent the shop elves out for tubes of JB Weld to patch that spot. I used some of the words they taught me last year...! Fortunately its in a hard-to-see spot, and the filler and paint will make it invisible.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on June 22, 2021, 02:34:12 AM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

One man's boo boo is another man's intentional stress relief feature / frequency damping node. Just ask NASA.  :paranoia:  (I think they must have shop elves too. And maybe J-B Weld, but not positive on that)  :Lol:  :shrug:

Oh, forgot "inspection datum target feature" - very popular when explaining endmill kisses on otherwise perfect flat surfs from finding Z0 with a bit too much enthusiasm.......or from cookie sugar high...... :Lol:

When it comes to boo boo's, Just like Sgt Schultz on Hogan's Heroes, though, "I know no-thing! NO-THING!"  :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 22, 2021, 03:00:57 AM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

One man's boo boo is another man's intentional stress relief feature / frequency damping node. Just ask NASA.  :paranoia:  (I think they must have shop elves too. And maybe J-B Weld, but not positive on that)  :Lol: :shrug:

Oh, forgot "inspection datum target feature" - very popular when explaining endmill kisses on otherwise perfect flat surfs from finding Z0 with a bit too much enthusiasm.......or from cookie sugar high...... :Lol:

When it comes to boo boo's, Just like Sgt Schultz on Hogan's Heroes, though, "I know no-thing! NO-THING!"  :cheers:


I just hope I have better results than Schultz did against Hogan!   :Lol:  wow, that show goes back a ways!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 22, 2021, 09:53:13 PM
Continuing on with the bearing block caps, I dug out an arbor last used on gears/spokes, and milled a rectangle in the top to match the outline of the bottom of the blocks, so no chance of them turning. Bolted each down and ran a ring around the center hole and outlined the bosses for the mounting bolts - the bosses are tapered in at the inner ends.
(https://i.postimg.cc/3xnxYRWQ/IMG-9525.jpg)
Tipped up the blocks to put in the step/angle on the end sections
(https://i.postimg.cc/g0jkJW6X/IMG-9531.jpg)
and a few more milling nibbles, rounding over the ends on the belt sander, and rounding the corners of the bosses gave this set of caps:
(https://i.postimg.cc/XvPNBzw2/IMG-9532.jpg)
The caps will get bolted into the bearing blocks (yet to be made), and the holes for the bearings bored through. The bottom of the caps are on the centerline of the bearings, so the bulk of the caps will get arched out underneath.
As far as the stock that I ordered last week for the bearing blocks, turns out that Midwest Steel Supply still has not shipped them, their price is low but service is slow (hows that for a slogan?) so I may not see the stock till end of the week or early next week - UPS is slower going here from midwest and west coast than along the east coast usually. So, the work on the blocks and caps is stalling out till then. Work may have to skip ahead to making something else, like the rods to connect the pump plungers to the crossheads, or maybe prepping stock for the crankshaft and upper engine frames. May just take a break and get outside more, if the weather cooperates (alternating storms and sun, was near 90 for a few days, today its 60).
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: ddmckee54 on June 23, 2021, 06:37:09 PM
"price is low but service is slow (hows that for a slogan?)"

It's got a nice beat, but it's hard to dance to - I don't think it'll catch on.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 23, 2021, 07:22:47 PM
"price is low but service is slow (hows that for a slogan?)"

It's got a nice beat, but it's hard to dance to - I don't think it'll catch on.

Don


 :lolb:   maybe make it one of those de-motivational posters!




Things are going to pick up again, I worked out a trade elsewhere for another chunk of the bar so I can get going again. That place still hasn't shipped after a week. I can understand it with a small outfit, but this is a large commercial supplier, I was hoping it was just the previous order that took weeks, but this is two in a row.


This morning I was getting the vertical pump supports trimmed to length, also been studying the Allis pump engine plans. Got really confused till I realized it has one huge difference in the pumps from the Holly. The Holly has three pumps in the center with six pump chambers, intakes at the bottom, outlets at the top. On the Allis, it has three pumps/six chambers also, but the intakes are on the left, outlets on the right. Only one set of check valves per chamber rather than two. From the outside it looked so similar I didn't notice the pipes. Very interesting to compare.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on June 23, 2021, 07:56:15 PM
Curbside pickup last week from one of the metal suppliers rear me was a bit of a mess too. I ordered two things:

round bar 1" x 3 feet, free cutting steel
flat bar 1/2" x 3" x 6 feet hot rolled steel

When I went for the pickup the staff member brought out 1/2" x 1" flat bar 3 feet long, then ran back in and got a 6 foot piece of 3" round bar, and commented going by the truck window "man, this sh^^t is HEAVY". I said "that's because it's the wrong diameter and length."   :facepalm:

We did get it straightened out after 25 minutes of the staff member arguing about not having the order sheet before I showed up and how the mistake wasn't his fault, could I not just buy the first stock he brought out AND the correct order? Uh, no. After seeing him with the wrong stock I did give him my copy of the order that I luckily had brought along. He did insist that I pay an extra two cutting charges for the replacement order, and a restock fee of 15% for the first two pieces of incorrect stock. Overall, it was a silly waste of time, I got hosed on the extra cut charges and restock fee, and cost was about double what I paid pre-pandemic for same order.  :cussing:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Don1966 on June 23, 2021, 10:36:27 PM
Dog you carve that metal just a good as you do wood……. :ThumbsUp:



 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on June 24, 2021, 05:07:49 AM
We did get it straightened out after 25 minutes of the staff member arguing about not having the order sheet before I showed up and how the mistake wasn't his fault, could I not just buy the first stock he brought out AND the correct order? Uh, no. After seeing him with the wrong stock I did give him my copy of the order that I luckily had brought along. He did insist that I pay an extra two cutting charges for the replacement order, and a restock fee of 15% for the first two pieces of incorrect stock. Overall, it was a silly waste of time, I got hosed on the extra cut charges and restock fee, and cost was about double what I paid pre-pandemic for same order.  :cussing:

Wow, this seems wrong.  It's not YOUR responsibility to make up for the mistakes of the guy filling your order.  If you ordered the wrong thing, then sure, I could see his point.  But if he cut your order without having the order sheet, that is HIS responsibility.  You should not have had to pay a restock fee or extra cutting fees.  You should send the company a complaint and see what they do about it.  You could always take them to small claims court, but it's probably not worth it. But it's the principle of the thing!
 
They didn't give you the shaft, they sold it to you!  >:(

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on June 24, 2021, 01:13:01 PM
Hi Kim, unfortunately the metal supply firm's head office could not care less about incidents like this, and has had a revolving door of staff members over the years. I have contacted them several times about various fraud-like incidents, and only once did I get a fair response. I don't think they pay well or know how to hire good people, so periodically you get these incidents. It was not so bad before Covid when you could go in and pick exactly what you needed, but with curbside service there is more room for mistakes. The overcharging / extra fees aspect has happened before several times different ways with various staff members who have come and gone. I don't know if they were putting the proceeds from these enterprising thefts in the company till or had found a way to skim them for themselves. In any case, I learned very early there to pay by credit card only so there was no potential for easy theft. I would not choose to buy anything here if I had a lot of choice in metal dealers near me, but I don't. I have hoped for years that a good reputable metal dealer (without a $200 minimum order, and who would sell to the public) would set up shop here, but it has not happened. There are MUCH better metal dealers in London Ontario or Mississauga Ontario that I do occasionally go to, but they are an hour's drive away and non essential travel here is still prohibited under the current provincial Covid lockdown rules anyway. So, I was stuck with going to the dealer nearby where the incident I mentioned happened. Just part of life's rich tapestry here in paradise.   :Lol:

PS I do occasionally shell out and buy from McMaster Carr, who have great service and a HUGE range of metal and fasteners and tooling, but with dollar exchange and credit card fees I end up paying almost double the US dollar list prices, so shopping sprees are infrequent with them!  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on June 24, 2021, 10:31:54 PM
CNR, I see your point, but it's still frustrating.

Do you have an equivalent to OnLine Metals, or Speedy Metals in CA?  Those are the places I get most of my metal.  Some from Amazon or eBay, but mainly those other two?  It takes a few days to get your metal, but even including shipping, they are WAY cheaper than the one local metal supplier that will sell to little guys like us - Metal Supermarket, who tends to be quite pricy!  I've only purchased from them a couple of times.

Anyway, glad you can get your hands on some metal, even if it comes with the risk.

Chris - sorry to derail your thread here.  we can get back to your Holly Pumping engine now that we've settled other world problems!

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on June 24, 2021, 10:54:03 PM
Yes sorry Chris, I did ramble on way too much in the middle of your build thread. Kim - to answer re Speedy / OnLine Metal equivalents here, no. On with the Holly engine topic Chris!  :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 25, 2021, 01:08:43 AM
No problem guys! Always fun to trade supplier/shipping nightmares, and good to learn who is good and not to deal with. I got the alternate-sourced chunk of brass today - the Midwest place sent an email saying the original one was shipped, but it will be interesting to see from the tracking when it is actually given to UPS, its common for them to claim its shipped when all they did was print a label from the UPS website! My guess is that one will be here in another week. I've gotten spoiled by McMaster, who has a big distribution hub just up the road in Syracuse, if I order from them before midafternoon I have it in hand the next day around lunchtime.  Amazon is building a monster warehouse/hub 4 miles from here on some of the old Kodak land, should be good for orders but awful for local traffic over there, its right on my back-road shortcut to the expressway.

Anyway, as you say, back to the Holly engine! I have the brass bar in the oven getting stress relieved, that would be done by now but tonight was Pistol League night, which was a lot of fun, my stresses are relieved!   :LittleDevil:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 25, 2021, 04:20:11 PM
This morning was able to start in on the bearing blocks. They fit over the side rails on the engine bed - did it this way since the bearing blocks have protrusions out around the bearings, one has a mounting flange for the gearbox that drives the lay shaft. Making the bearing blocks as an integral part of the original engine bed plates would have meant starting with much larger blocks and milling away a lot more material. So, I got a start on milling out the slot in the first block - they were all stress relieved last night.
(https://i.postimg.cc/X71DsVmY/IMG-9535.jpg)
Next step is to trim it to length and get it to slide into place on the side rail. Then, repeat for the other three blocks...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on June 25, 2021, 06:55:35 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: EricB on June 25, 2021, 07:03:53 PM
KhlJp1VZMB8
Just found this while looking for something else. Enjoy

Eric
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 25, 2021, 07:28:05 PM
Thanks Eric, that's a great video. I came across it while researching the Holly, there are more details and clips at the Kempton website,  https://kemptonsteam.org/collection/triple-expansion-engines/


I would absolutely love to see it running in person, yet another reason to get back to London again. Spent a week there in 1996, got to lots, like Greenwich and such, still lots to see.


 :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: EricB on June 25, 2021, 07:36:07 PM
I get the impression that your scale model will be about the size of his starter engine. Wow!

Eric
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 25, 2021, 07:44:29 PM
I get the impression that your scale model will be about the size of his starter engine. Wow!

Eric


Almost that tall including the pumps!  Hmmm, wonder if Surus has castings for that barring engine...!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 25, 2021, 08:02:40 PM
It never hurts to ask, just sent in an email to the Kempton organization to see what information they have on those engines....
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Roger B on June 25, 2021, 08:34:29 PM
Splendid work as ever  :praise2:  :praise2:  :wine1:

Material supplies seem to be becoming harder everywhere  :( In my day job delivery dates just keep going out what was normally 6 weeks is now 12 weeks, a new crosslinking facility that might have been 9-12 months is now 14-16 months (or more  :toilet_claw: )
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 25, 2021, 10:54:25 PM
Splendid work as ever  :praise2: :praise2: :wine1:

Material supplies seem to be becoming harder everywhere  :( In my day job delivery dates just keep going out what was normally 6 weeks is now 12 weeks, a new crosslinking facility that might have been 9-12 months is now 14-16 months (or more  :toilet_claw: )
Thanks Roger!

Latest reply from Midwest is that 'it went to UPS today, tracking should update tonight'.  We'll see. Getting a nasty ugly hungry shop gnome ready for insertion....  (anybody remember Fawlty Towers episode with the incompetent (like Basil) builder Mr Stubbs? )
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 25, 2021, 10:55:59 PM
First bearing block is fitted to the first side rail....  Three to go.
(https://i.postimg.cc/rpdb0gGj/IMG-9536.jpg)
Went on fairly easily, a little scraping needed in the inside corner of rail where I had to back cut it by hand the other day, but nice snug fit sliding it on.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steamer on June 26, 2021, 01:23:30 AM
Oooooooh.....Brass!!!    I like brass!   

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 26, 2021, 01:43:12 AM
Oooooooh.....Brass!!!    I like brass!   

Dave


Me too, carves great. Too bad its not better with chocolate!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steamer on June 26, 2021, 01:56:08 AM
Damn site more expensive than chocolate too!


 :ROFL:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 26, 2021, 08:10:12 PM
Some more yummy brass working, got the second of four bearing blocks notched to fit over the engine beds
(https://i.postimg.cc/pVQvKgdy/IMG-9538.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on June 26, 2021, 10:00:34 PM
Nice work, Chris!  Only two more of those to go?

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 26, 2021, 10:25:58 PM
Nice work, Chris!  Only two more of those to go?

Kim
Yes - there are six side rails, but the end cranks are open so they only have a bearing on one side. When I get to drilling the holes for the bearings, getting everything lined up across all three bed plates is important, but difficult since all three are bolted to seperate support legs. This means rather than all three on one common base plate, there are 21 parts between the bed plates and the common base - lots of places for tolerances to stack up! Putting a straightedge across all three makes me thing things are very very close, which is great. Still, I am thinking that I'll bore the holes in the center bed plate, then make a pair of temp bearings sized for a long drill, which will be used to mark the actual center of the crankshaft on the two outer bearing blocks of the six. It will be interesting to see how close it comes to the measured location! The bearings themselves can be bored slightly undersize and lapped out to take care of any slight misalignments. I've never made a model with this layout, other three-cylinder ones were on one common bed plate, so this should be interesting!  The crankshaft and bearing setup when done looks like this:
(https://i.postimg.cc/k4ZGWNqX/Engine_Beds.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on June 26, 2021, 10:51:01 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steam guy willy on June 27, 2021, 02:12:39 AM
Hi this is all coming together really nicely,  lovely work... :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

Willy
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 27, 2021, 02:17:26 PM
Bearing block number three is fitted, one more to go:
(https://i.postimg.cc/rwRhTKQD/IMG-9539.jpg)
After the last one is fitted, I can start notching them to take the bearing caps:
(https://i.postimg.cc/R0rgZ4DX/IMG-9540.jpg)
Still lots more shaping to do on these blocks - notching for the caps, drilling for the mounting bolts, taking them to width, and shaping the bosses on the sides, as well as boring the bearing holes through the whole assembly. The shop elves would go on strike, but its going to be a scorching hot day outside!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RReid on June 27, 2021, 02:56:57 PM
Continuing to impress, Chris! A time lapse video of that thing growing from the base up would be fun to watch. Not that you need anything else to do! ;)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on June 27, 2021, 03:17:53 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 27, 2021, 04:03:11 PM
Continuing to impress, Chris! A time lapse video of that thing growing from the base up would be fun to watch. Not that you need anything else to do! ;)
Darn, the camera on my wayback machine is broke!   :Lol:

Neat idea - wish I had done that from the start, take pictures from a fixed point throughout. I did that on some boatbuilding projects years ago, though never animated them together.

This morning I have been playing in Fusion, doing some more on the Allis engine plans, converting them to a CAD model like I did for the Holly. Long term background project! So far have the foundation blocks/bolts, and the lower pump valve chambers. This eninge has a very different pump arrangement, one intake on the left, one outlet on the right, rather than two inlets/two outlets, and just one set of check valves per side rather than two. About the same volume of water delivered at the end.

(https://i.postimg.cc/XN2CnWHF/Allis-Pump-Engine-1.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 27, 2021, 08:14:04 PM
Got the last bearing block slotted to fit over the side rails. Here they all are, with the centerline of the crankshaft measured out and marked in:
(https://i.postimg.cc/43cXFDyr/IMG-9541.jpg)
Started laying out the notches for the bearing block caps...
(https://i.postimg.cc/bJjqXm2d/IMG-9542.jpg)
The center sits down 1/4" into the bearing block, then later the ends of the block get shaped down into curves leading to the bed rails. First things first though, getting the caps fit to the blocks then drilling the mounting holes, which go all the way through the caps, blocks, and frame rails. That will hold everything secure for the bearing hole drilling/boring steps - those holes are centered on the bottom of the caps, and do go into the side rails a ways too.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on June 28, 2021, 12:10:27 AM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 28, 2021, 03:18:09 PM
So today started notching in the tops of the bearing blocks for the caps. So satisfying when it snicks into place!
(https://i.postimg.cc/TwQzCDBH/IMG-9544.jpg)
and one down
(https://i.postimg.cc/x8CW7d2j/IMG-9545.jpg)
and a two
(https://i.postimg.cc/mk50GGLY/IMG-9546.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RReid on June 28, 2021, 03:26:21 PM
Quote
So satisfying when it snicks into place!
Quote
Few things are better than a good snick. :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 28, 2021, 05:34:47 PM
And the last two are fitted in (snick snick)
(https://i.postimg.cc/sXY34xJM/IMG-9547.jpg)
so started on drilling the bolt holes through the bearing blocks and engine beds, using each cap as a drill guide. Took some careful measurements to get the cap centered on the side rails properly, the sides of the bearing blocks will be trimmed in later. I dropped in some cap screws in the holes as I went to ensure the cap did not move while drilling the rest of the holes.

(https://i.postimg.cc/MHzqPwsd/IMG-9548.jpg)
One cap down, three to go...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on June 28, 2021, 06:03:27 PM
Very nice progress, Chris!

On those bearing blocks, I don't remember seeing that big chunk hanging over the bed plate.  Does it?  Or will it be trimmed back eventually?

Kim 
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 28, 2021, 07:16:32 PM
Hi Kim,
Those blocks still need a lot of shaping. Right now, they stick out like the red outline in this:

(https://i.postimg.cc/sDq6JcHN/Bearing-Block.jpg)

They will be trimmed back flush with the rails at the outside and just stick out in the center like the blue arrow is pointing at. The width of the cap is the final width of that center protrusion, the stock the blocks were cut from is a little wider than the cap still, and a lot wider than the side rails of the bed. The notches I cut in the side rail kept the stock on the sides of the bearing blocks thicker, and prevented any feather edges from forming as I trim them back to final shape.
On the top of the bearing blocks, they will also be trimmed back in a curve under the cap to blend with the top of the bed.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Don1966 on June 29, 2021, 02:40:01 AM
I am interested to see if you line bore these or just bore them one at a time. Are if you will leave play for alignment purposes if you bore one at a time. . I noticed a split shaft arrangement if I am correct. You are one metal carving machinist I can say that much about as good at it as your wood carving. Always great work Chris…. :Love:


 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 29, 2021, 03:32:15 AM
I am interested to see if you line bore these or just bore them one at a time. Are if you will leave play for alignment purposes if you bore one at a time. . I noticed a split shaft arrangement if I am correct. You are one metal carving machinist I can say that much about as good at it as your wood carving. Always great work Chris…. :Love:


 :cheers:
Don


Hi Don,


There's no way to line bore all four at once, since the outside end bed rails come up above the centerline of the crankshaft. I could line bore the center pair, but I don't have a setup or tools for that anyway, and the other two need to be done one at a time. Plus, there is just enough tolerance stackup in the lower frames, with 21 parts, that I can't just clamp up the bearing blocks, even ignoring the fact that the top of the siderails need to be part of the bore. The bed frames and bearing blocks add up to 3.25" wide which is too long for normal boring head tool.

So, long-winded way of saying that I need to bore them separately!  The other day I sketched out a jig to use on the center bed frame, to get those two holes aligned, will show that when I make it. Then, will make a pair of tube guides to fit those bores and hold a long drill or point to mark the outer two bearing blocks for boring.


May not come across in text well, but all fairly straightforward with a couple of jigs to do the alignment work. Stay tuned this coming week to see my thinking.


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Elam Works on June 29, 2021, 05:15:28 AM
Given that the loading will not be that high, could you 'pot' the bearing shells or housing in something that would setup while all the bearings were held in alignment with a straight piece of ground shafting? Sort of a variation of pouring Babbit bearings in-suti using the shaft as the alignment tool. 

-Doug
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 29, 2021, 01:47:25 PM
Given that the loading will not be that high, could you 'pot' the bearing shells or housing in something that would setup while all the bearings were held in alignment with a straight piece of ground shafting? Sort of a variation of pouring Babbit bearings in-suti using the shaft as the alignment tool. 

-Doug
That's an interesting idea Doug. Bore the holes for the bearings slightly oversize and bed the bearings in JB Weld maybe? Hmmmm, that could fix any small alignment errors. The bearings have to be split since the crankshaft has wider sections at the flywheels (two, one between each bed frame) so the bearings could not be slipped over the ends. The flywheels will be 5 or 6 pounds each.


Great idea, will experiment with that! Thanks!! :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 29, 2021, 02:25:07 PM
Oh, and I found this picture of the engineer who designed the Holly engine going out for lunch....    :lolb:
(https://i.postimg.cc/kGs3jXgw/Lion-Stilts.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 29, 2021, 04:24:40 PM
With the holes for the bearing cap bolts all drilled, time to move on to making the studs and nuts. I have small pattern 5-40 nuts, but they are not close enough to proper scale so I'll make my own. The studs are threaded both ends, and 2.4" long. One thing I've wanted to do for a while is set up for single-point threading on the Sherline, which does have a threading attachment set that adds gears outside the drive pulleys and a big crank. It works, but has some flaws - the gears are mounted to bearings on two flat plates which pivot on a screw at one end to accomodate the different size gears. The first plate clamps on a post around the leadscrew. All good thoughts, but the forces involved in turning the gears against the force of the cutter make the two pivot points want to move and let the gears (which have small teeth) skip. Also, the handwheel size requires that you either remove the motor or add a long extension which doesnt work out well. The only time I've given the threading set a real workout was on the Stanley engine, threading the engine block for the end caps. Worked, but did have some problems with the plates moving, nearly ruining the parts.

So, as I mentioned a couple weeks ago, I had picked up a second Sherline lathe short-bed/headstock without a motor to set up as a dedicated threading station. Actually, the way the price worked out, getting the motor/speed control in the base package was nearly the same price as buying the bare bed/headstock, so I got the base package and set the motor/speed control aside for spares for when I eventually wear one out - bound to happen given the amount of use I give them.
The threading attachment plates were modified to add an adjustment bolt that will keep the two from pivotting on the end screw once the gears are meshing. This bolt does not press in on the gears, just limits the movement to keep the plates from pushing apart. Also was going to add an adjustable post down to the table to keep the other pivot in place, but for now found a bit of bar stock in the bin to prop under it to see how it all works.
(https://i.postimg.cc/gctf00Ty/IMG-9552.jpg)
That seems to work great - adjust the plates/gears for proper mesh, then just hand-tighten the bolt and prop. Nothing has shifted a bit in the first pieces threaded, so happy with that. Here is the first of the 1/8" diameter studs threaded and test with a stock nut (too large across the flats, will make my own to scale size). It took extra passes on the first one, to work out the depth of cut, the rest should go quicker. I need 16 studs, threaded at each end.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Fz6qCPLC/IMG-9549.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Don1966 on June 29, 2021, 04:25:27 PM
I was thinking on that second to last post. Using JB weld might be a good idea, but when you have weight pushing down on it it would move. If the bottom bearing sleeve is not a half shell but 3/4 shell then that might not happen. Just thinking out loud……


Thoughts Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 29, 2021, 04:27:52 PM
I wax’s think on that second to last post. Using JB weld might be a good idea, but when you have weight pushing down on it it would move. If the bottom bearing sleeve is not a half shell but 3/4 shell then that might not happen. Just thinking out loud……


Thoughts Don
Cant be anything more than a half shell, or I cant get it on the crankshaft with its wider sections around the flywheels and gear mount. Good point about the bearing moving or spinning. Maybe get it installed and bedded, then drill for a small brass pin to keep it from shifting?
 :thinking:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: kvom on June 30, 2021, 11:52:30 AM
My experience with threading studs indicated that testing in a tapped hole is needed as nuts are looser.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 30, 2021, 01:51:43 PM
My experience with threading studs indicated that testing in a tapped hole is needed as nuts are looser.
Ah - had forgotten about that!  Just went and tested with a tapped hole, and I got lucky, the nut I used for testing must have been on the smaller end of the tolerances, the studs I have made so far worked fine. Both ends of these studs will have nuts on them, but ones that I am tapping vs commercial ones.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 30, 2021, 07:45:32 PM
All the bearing block studs are threaded both ends, and about half of the nuts made from some .187 hex stock, they look a lot better than the commercial ones, which are thinner and .25 across the flats. One more batch of nuts to turn out and I can move on to boring the bearing holes.
(https://i.postimg.cc/4xrJFmxf/IMG-9553.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on June 30, 2021, 08:25:49 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

It might be wise to store the finished studs and nuts in a female / squirrel-proof container.  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 30, 2021, 09:51:30 PM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

It might be wise to store the finished studs and nuts in a female / squirrel-proof container.  :Lol:


 :LittleDevil:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on June 30, 2021, 11:57:22 PM
And all 16 stud/nut sets complete
(https://i.postimg.cc/76S4Q2H3/IMG-9561.jpg)
next will move on to boring the crankshaft bearing holes in the engine beds.    :paranoia:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on July 01, 2021, 01:03:20 AM
That's a lot of work in that little pile!

The nuts sure do look nice though!

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 01, 2021, 01:39:11 AM
That's a lot of work in that little pile!

The nuts sure do look nice though!

Kim
Thanks Kim!   Good practice for the 12 rods that will connect the pump plungers to the crossheads later on. Same basic shape but bigger, they will go around the cranks to drive the pumps.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steam guy willy on July 01, 2021, 03:04:58 AM
Hi  those studs are looking the part with those smaller nuts ...over here in Blighty you can get one size smaller nut heads in the BA sizes from EKP ...this saves us a lot of work !!  good progress ... :) :)

Willy
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Swarf Maker on July 01, 2021, 09:58:43 AM
Just one very, very minor observation Chris.  Nuts with each face chamfered are not usually encountered in this class of heavy engineering.  The face against the part being retained is usually flat.  Double chamfers are for general purpose nuts in the hardware store is my understanding.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on July 01, 2021, 12:44:56 PM
Goodness Swarf Maker .....when considering Chris's nuts, I am sure careful consideration was made relative to relief angle [no nuts were ever designed to have 100% [flat] engagement, but reduced by 1/96th negative to the AF dimension]

Then we must consider flat washers were never just those punched out rings, but a Graded Carbon steel, machined, then heat-treated to acceptt the induced torque  :killcomputer:

Naturally when I quote 1/96th, as obviously being Imperial [as copied by the US] .........

I am sure Chris has any issues with his nuts in hand  :ROFL:

Derek

-----------
PS...sorry ..I cannot see your location, however if in Europe & using the Si System, then nut face relief face /angle would be  reduced by 1/100 th negative to the AF dimension]
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 01, 2021, 02:50:28 PM
Just one very, very minor observation Chris.  Nuts with each face chamfered are not usually encountered in this class of heavy engineering.  The face against the part being retained is usually flat.  Double chamfers are for general purpose nuts in the hardware store is my understanding.
I went back and looked in the photos I have of the Holly engines, and you may be right on the chamfers - the outside end definitely has the corners relieved, the inside end its harder to tell with the layers of old paint and dirt but they do appear to be flat!  I have close-up photos of the ones on the Allis engine in Boston, and on those I can tell that just the outside is chamfered.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 01, 2021, 03:01:25 PM
Goodness Swarf Maker .....when considering Chris's nuts, I am sure careful consideration was made relative to relief angle [no nuts were ever designed to have 100% [flat] engagement, but reduced by 1/96th negative to the AF dimension]

Then we must consider flat washers were never just those punched out rings, but a Graded Carbon steel, machined, then heat-treated to acceptt the induced torque  :killcomputer:

Naturally when I quote 1/96th, as obviously being Imperial [as copied by the US] .........

I am sure Chris has any issues with his nuts in hand  :ROFL:

Derek

-----------
PS...sorry ..I cannot see your location, however if in Europe & using the Si System, then nut face relief face /angle would be  reduced by 1/100 th negative to the AF dimension]
Derek, sounds like you are talking more about how flat the faces are, I think SwarfMaker is talking more about the relief on the corners on the end faces.  Here is a closeup snipped from a photo on the Allis engine that has and extreme chamfer/roundover:
(https://i.postimg.cc/9Xx2ht9J/Nut-Chamfer.jpg)
The Holly engine does not go this far on its nuts, it just has the corners of the flats rounded off, here is one on the Holly engine:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Gp1wQM0h/Nut-Chamfer2.jpg)
On both, its interesting to see that they sized the studs to end at the top of the nuts in most places rather than come through a thread or two - I can see in other photos that they are not bolts, they are studs/nuts. I do not have good pics of the Holly bearing cap tops, from the walkway I could only get within 40 or 50 feet and they are in the shadows. I do have a good shot of the bearing caps on the Allis, where I could get a lot closer, they are very similar in shape to the Holly:
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZnQXyHFm/Nut-Chamfer3.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: ddmckee54 on July 01, 2021, 04:14:03 PM
The solution is simple at this scale.

Assemble the engine then gob on a couple thick coats of paint over the nuts, brush painted of course.  When you're short of REAL work you send the apprentice - in your case elves - out with a bucket of paint and a paint brush, not a spray-gun. (At least that's what happened when I started work many-many moons ago.)

It'll look just like the real thing, and you won't be able to tell if the nuts are chamfered on both ends or not.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 01, 2021, 05:03:30 PM
The solution is simple at this scale.

Assemble the engine then gob on a couple thick coats of paint over the nuts, brush painted of course.  When you're short of REAL work you send the apprentice - in your case elves - out with a bucket of paint and a paint brush, not a spray-gun. (At least that's what happened when I started work many-many moons ago.)

It'll look just like the real thing, and you won't be able to tell if the nuts are chamfered on both ends or not.

Don
The LAST thing I need is my shop elves with buckets (well, thimbles) of black paint!!  Starts out fine, then the paint flicking starts, then the graffiti (Your mother was a gnome, that sort of thing) on the walls, then the bucket over the head (thiers, then mine) ....    :lolb:

This morning I WAS going to start drilling/boring for the bearings, but last night I realized that to avoid interrupted cuts I needed to first take the sides of the bearing blocks down to match the width of the caps as they will be when finished. So, started that this morning instead...   :slap:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on July 02, 2021, 01:09:52 AM
Chris....

If we could find a 130 year old copy of "Engineering Machine Practice" **  :happyreader: , we would find confirmation that the height of these high tensile flat washers was gauged to suit the as installed extended height, of the stud after installation ..

This procedure being a throw-back from Victorian Engineering Rules, as can be seen in your example that the end radius of the stud machined  to equal the radius of the nut

So yes, at the turn of the Century [early 1900's], accurate height reduction would have been via a surface grinding machine.....& yes each washer was match marked for each stud

We would also read that a relief was made on the lower face to equal 1 degree of angularity from the point of the hex, to the flat of the hex, then minus 1/96 of that dimension...... :shrug:

Earlier in this thread we mentioned that the method of applying an accurate level of induced torque for such mountings was via a 28lb hammer  over the Flogging Spanner  :killcomputer:

** not to be confused with the popular "Machinary's Handbook" - Volume 1 [First printed 1914]

Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on July 02, 2021, 01:31:59 AM
Elfensteiner stubbies and black paint - a potent combination of chemicals! (you remember what happened to Mr Ethan Oll and the green paint incident during the Mann truck build...... a shameful moment for shop elves.)   :Lol:

 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: kvom on July 02, 2021, 10:33:08 AM
Quote
Starts out fine, then the paint flicking starts

Like another well known gnome:  starts out being an oil executive in Ukraine and then blowing paint through a straw.   :LittleDevil:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 02, 2021, 01:35:54 PM
Wow, did we head off into the weeds or what...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 02, 2021, 04:47:31 PM
Okay - back on the build, catching up on whats been happening the last couple of days. Before boring the bearing holes, the sides of the bearing blocks needed to be taken down to width, matching the width of the bearing caps, so that there would not be an interupted cut when drilling/boring the bearing holes through them. This picture shows the block before milling off the outside:

(https://i.postimg.cc/vB15YT6S/IMG-9562.jpg)
and after:
(https://i.postimg.cc/YqBQ7p2b/IMG-9563.jpg)
This was done on all four blocks, and likewise milled off the inside faces.

Then on to actually boring the holes. Since the engine beds are over 3" wide, no way I could use the boring head to do it all from one side, and as described in an earlier post the option of line boring would not work out for all the beds. So, I needed a way to align the holes through when drilling from either side. Went through a few methods, and settled on this one. I took a piece of offcut aluminum from the bin, and drilled/counterbored so that it could be bolted to the mill table. This piece has a recess in the underside so that I could bore in from the top, and break through without harming the mill table.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZKPpK1CZ/IMG-9565.jpg)
With that block bolted to the mill table, the IP engine bed (center one with bearings on both sides) was clamped down over the block on its side, with the location of the bearing hole roughly centered over the recess on the bottom. The mill table was adjusted till the drill center was lined up with the center of the bearing hole, which is on the center of the seam between the bearing block and the cap. At this point, the mill table X/Y movements were both locked down and left locked for the rest of the steps.
(https://i.postimg.cc/BnMF2HTV/IMG-9569.jpg)
After checking that the bed was square to the table, and the center of the drill was lined up, drilled the starter hole for the bearing. The finished hole will need to be 0.828" diameter.
(https://i.postimg.cc/hvTxmYsL/IMG-9571.jpg)
Switched to the boring head, and started enlargine the hole...
(https://i.postimg.cc/T2DnByxK/IMG-9572.jpg)
A lot of cranking later, and the hole was out to size:
(https://i.postimg.cc/3wNv1N9J/IMG-9573.jpg)
So far so good. Now to put the alignement block to actual use. The bed was unclamped and all the swarf dumped into the shop elves sandbox for them to play in. Then, drilled a starter hole through the alignment block and bored it out a ways - size of that hole is not critical, just needed to be on the same axis as the hole bored in the bed, and since the mill table was locked down that should be the case. The recess in the bottom of the plate let me bore through without harming the mill table. Carefully...

(https://i.postimg.cc/zGJWL0gh/IMG-9574.jpg)
Then popped over to the lathe and turned up this little chunk of roundbar to fit the bore in the engine bed. A short nub was turned on the end to fit the hole in the alignment plate - worked out well, press fit in the plate, and sliding fit in the engine bed hole.
(https://i.postimg.cc/s2LZNz0P/IMG-9575.jpg)
Then the moment of truth - slid the engine bed over the post,
(https://i.postimg.cc/bJ22X5K7/IMG-9576.jpg)
 and clamped it down to the table. Then ran a drill down to the starter hole, and .... it lined right up!!   :whoohoo:
(https://i.postimg.cc/gjFLGDpn/IMG-9577.jpg)
So, all lined up, now I can bore the matching hole in the other side out to size. The shop elves have gotten the boring head reinstalled on the mill for me.
(https://i.postimg.cc/wMXyMmxF/IMG-9578.jpg)
All went well till they said it was all in place and to turn it on. Too bad he was still sitting on the boring head at the time....   :LittleDevil:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on July 02, 2021, 05:14:02 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 02, 2021, 06:28:43 PM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
:cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: ddmckee54 on July 02, 2021, 06:34:30 PM
It's a good thing the elves don't know about OHSA, and even more importantly that OSHA doesn't know about the elves.  Otherwise you'd be buried in the paperwork for their Lock Out Tag Out violations.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 02, 2021, 07:08:55 PM
It's a good thing the elves don't know about OHSA, and even more importantly that OSHA doesn't know about the elves.  Otherwise you'd be buried in the paperwork for their Lock Out Tag Out violations.

Don
OSHA came a couple times, left crying and covered in swarf...  The elves used the tags as Christmas ornaments!

Speaking of angry elves, I need to stuff some down the shorts of the support people at Duplicolor paints.   :Mad:
Several weeks ago I had bought some of their engine enamel in white - been using their ceramic engine paints for a long time on steam engines, boilers, RC submarines, all sorts of stuff, works great. This one can was a dud - came out like a garden hose rather than like an aerosol. Okay, they get a bad unit once in a while, not that big a deal. So, I contacted their support group, gave them the requested bar codes and batch codes, and they were very nice, and sent me a replacement can of the spray paint. Bit of a delay, but okay. This was for a new submarine model that is still in progress, so not a big deal on lost time.
It arrived today, got it shook up and fortunately did a test spray on cardboard first. SAME problem as the first can. Looked at the batch codes - its from the SAME SWARFING BATCH!   :cussing: :Mad: :cussing: :Mad:   They had asked for the batch codes to track it back and do quality control checks. Gee, that worked well... At least I didn't need to sand off all the goo this time.

So, looks like the blew it on that whole batch, either a bad set of nozzles or they mixed the paint wrong, comes out as a 1/4" thick stream of goo, looks more like spray foam insulation coming out. The first can came from an auto store, this new one straight from the factory.
Just sent them another note with pictures and details, kept the language clean barely. We'll see what they say.In the meantime, I am preparing a bag of mean nasty ugly hungry rabid shop gnomes to mail them...
End rant. Back to the pumping engine!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RReid on July 02, 2021, 08:27:39 PM
Excellent solution to the boring (no, not boring, I mean the repeatable hole making) problem Chris!  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 02, 2021, 08:30:58 PM
After getting the shop elf off the chandelier down the hall, where he landed when I turned on the mill as he was sitting on the boring head, I got the other hole bored in the middle engine bed:
(https://i.postimg.cc/RZrbJ31f/IMG-9584.jpg)
Then, since I didnt need the post in the alignment fixture anymore (other two beds have one hole each since the end cranks are open style) I reused the post for the marking fixture I need next - bored a hole through it to match the long 3/8" drill I have, and parted it into two sections:
(https://i.postimg.cc/QMm6z02k/IMG-9585.jpg)
so the two sections slip over the drill
(https://i.postimg.cc/Gpd7zZ5m/IMG-9586.jpg)
and the guides slip into the engine bed holes to hold the drill centered
(https://i.postimg.cc/qv8DskQF/IMG-9587.jpg)
Now I can re-assemble the engine beds onto the vertical pump colums, the center section plus one end one at a time, and use the drill to mark where the center of the crankshaft lands on the two end ones. Should be able to either turn the drill by hand or use a slow speed hand drill, just need the mark where it lands to guide me in setting up the two other engine beds for boring. That will get the centerline very close, and my straight-edge checks show the angle alignment will be close as well. I am expecting there to be some slight binding points unless I get really lucky, but a little Timesavers compound should fix that. So far, so good!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 02, 2021, 08:32:11 PM
Excellent solution to the boring (no, not boring, I mean the repeatable hole making) problem Chris!  :ThumbsUp:
Getting bearing holes drilled/bored through wide engine beds is always a tricky thing, through seperate beds on stilts has had me very nervous!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 02, 2021, 09:59:44 PM
And I got the parts assembled back onto the model to mark the crankshaft centerline. Here is what it looked like marking the HP engine bed end. The long drill is run through the guides in the bearing holes, and was turned by hand to make a mark on the side of the bearing block/cap. On this end, the mark was dead center on the cap/block seam horizontally and vertically.
(https://i.postimg.cc/MGsyJ4d5/IMG-9588.jpg)
and marking the LP bearing block. On this one, the mark was dead on vertically, but horizontally it is slightly off. Checking measurements show that somehow I goofed when notching the side rail for the bearing block - the block is off to one side a bit. Must have mis-measured something, or miscounted crank turns. Its still close enough to work though I'm glad I did this marking, to know where the centerline actually wound up. If I had not goofed something on the bearing block it would have been spot on, so I am pleasantly surprised things are stacking up so well given the number of parts involved.
(https://i.postimg.cc/C1zbhN2g/IMG-9590.jpg)
So, thats a good place to break for the day, tomorrow I can start boring the last two bearing holes. After that, I can get on to shaping the outside faces of the bearing blocks - they get blended in to the side rails, and flare out near the bearing itself. One of the faces gets shaped and drilled to hold the bevel gear housing for the lay shaft, and all of them need to be drilled/tapped for brackets to hold the catwalk floors between the beds. After all that, I think it will be time to work on the crankshaft itself. Unless I remember some other parts still needing to be made first!
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 03, 2021, 03:29:48 PM
This morning got the LP engine bed bored for the crankshaft bearing. The drill-marking trick has worked, this one was the one where the bearing block ws a little off to the side, so if I had gone from measurements from its edge it would have bound up the bearing. With the long drill slid through the drill guides (had made four slices, one for each block) on the three bored so far, it rotates freely.   :cartwheel:   You can see the drill guides in the bearing holes - the drill is .375", the bearing holes are .828".
(https://i.postimg.cc/v8nqnJMk/IMG-9591.jpg)
That just leaves the HP bearing to drill for...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on July 03, 2021, 04:38:02 PM
Very interesting technique, Chris!  Seems to have worked well for you here.
Nice work  :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 03, 2021, 05:13:24 PM
Thanks Kim! Very pleased with how well it worked. Just finished boring the last bearing block hole,
(https://i.postimg.cc/hjN71Z8t/IMG-9592.jpg)
and things line up for that one as well - at least as much as I can tell with this drill, dont have a length of 3/8" rod the right length handy, and I dont want to cut a longer one down just for this test. The drill is a couple inches too long to fit within the bed rails on either end.

(https://i.postimg.cc/sxSG6PK9/IMG-9593.jpg)
So, with each set of three lining up very well, I'm going to call this a roaring success and move on to shaping the sides of the bearing blocks down to final profile - full width under the cap, then they swoop in and blend with the sides of the rails.Before that though, this afternoon/evening am off to my cousins place at the lake, an old tradition there to hold a lake-wide party called the Ring Of Fire the night before the Fourth of July (Independance Day here in the US). Bonfires all round the lake, fireworks in all directions, parties at all the cottages, huge fun.
 :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Don1966 on July 03, 2021, 06:13:56 PM
Very clever and intuitive Dog and you’re still the man………….I……………..likeeeeeeet……  :Love:



 :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 03, 2021, 06:41:53 PM
Very clever and intuitive Dog and you’re still the man………….I……………..likeeeeeeet……  :Love:



 :drinking-41:
Don
Thanks Don! This one has been getting a lot of thought and worry for a while, very happy that it worked!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 03, 2021, 08:21:38 PM
Okay, I know there are some people here that have worked on commercial-sized piping and fittings, here is a question for you:

On both the Holly and the Allis engine plans, there are a number of places where they have large pipes (like in the 2 to 4 foot diameter range) coming out of chambers, all cast in one piece (these are both from the early 1900s if that matters). On all of them, they have these thick box shapes where the pipes come out of the chambers, with a bolt through them. Here is a picture showing some on the Allis pump/valve chambers:
(https://i.postimg.cc/NMVprwdJ/Pipe-Flange-Question.jpg)
The red arrows are pointing at the shapes I mean. They are cast into the whole structure - these pipes are not welded in later (the plans show casting cores, all that, they are showing the shapes to be molded).  They have a single stud with nuts at each end to form a bolt, going from end to end of the box shape (not shown in my picture), but there is nothing for the bolt to hold other than that boxy shape.

So, the end question - WHY do they put those box shapes on there?? It doesnt make sense for a place to pull the pipes together - in this example the bolt flanges would be in the way for that, and in other cases there is just a man-hole cap, no pipe to pull in. And, at first I thought it was a place to lift it, but its way off center, and they have them on all pipes coming out, no matter the positions they are at.

Is it for strength, across the arc of the chamber? These are pressure holding chambers, so maybe?

Some of you guys that make (or made before retirement) large boilers/pipes/reactors should know this - free box of shop elves to the first to answer (with a valid answer anyway) !
 :headscratch:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: john mills on July 04, 2021, 12:02:10 AM
this is an interesting project   i have been following
I think about how they made  and machined these parts  did they have big machines  horizontal borers   and lathes  big enough. would they have used those boses to mount a device to finish the flange face .or just a fixture for holding for machining .i gets there was a lot of hand fitting  to get final  alignment and suitable fits.
   John.
           
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on July 04, 2021, 01:56:13 AM
The Book  :happyreader: says......'Good Designers are the Machinist's best friend' 

Courtesy of Google, as I cannot find my 130 year old copy of Foundry Practice  :Lol:

But John [as first past the post] wins the Prize of Elves + Cookies....

Yes, these holes provide substantial alignment and rigidity during the initial or primary machining of the smaller flange face exiting the main spool....after this is completed, the main spool body would be tipped 90 degrees and supported on that [now flat] face, so to machine both of the outer fange faces, all achieved on the Horizontal Borer

NB.....there are very few detailed Texts on Patternmaking of Olde......these Blokes were 'Journeyman of Patternmaking' and training in the late 1800's, who later taught Patternmaking to appentrices by word of mouth about shrinkage & the like......[long before Schools of Technical Works]

Derek  :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on July 04, 2021, 02:16:30 AM
I certainly don't know for sure what the bosses and studs were for, exactly, but a few thoughts below on possibilities:

1. The large cylindrical chambers presumably have to be aligned fairly accurately between centres, to align with the pump chamber bolted flange joints. The real question is how the bolted flange joint between chambers was sealed and tightened while keeping the centre to centre alignment with the pump chambers. Were the chambers aligned, then lead or babbit poured in the joint groove to seal it, wherever the flanges ended up? If so, maybe the holes / studs held a mould in place while the joint was poured. (a rubber gasket in a groove in the face may have been used to seal the joint too, but that might allow misalignment, which was what made me think of a leaded joint as used on some steam traction engine cyl to boiler joints.)
2. The holes might have been needed as tooling holes to establish datums or holddowns for flange cutting / bolt hole drilling operations.
3. Were the studs maybe used as anchor points / holding method for strainer grilles or maybe additional check valve grids inside the chamber / passage?
4. The holes and some temporary use longer studs may have been used with 4 turnbuckle type devices to pull the flanges together on a rubber seal for bolting, if chamber alignment was not so important or accomplished another way.

Points to ponder.   :headscratch: :thinking: :DrinkPint:

(if I should win the bucket of elves by some crazy accident of fate, I hereby defer the win and suggest you send them to Eagle Mountain Brewery to help with slushing out the mash tuns)  :Lol:

Engine progress looks great!   :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Happy July 4th to all forum members in the USA! :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 04, 2021, 04:07:11 AM
Going through the plans some more, and those square boxes and bolts are only on the pipe sections under internal pressure, not on any under internal suction. The plans do show gaskets, don't say what kind. All the faces, high pressure or not, are machined flat, and have many bolts on thier flanges to draw them up. Even the pipes that are manholes with covers have the boxes. All run horizontal on vertical chambers, which makes me wonder about adding strength where the pipe section comes out perpendicular to the chamber.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 04, 2021, 05:43:23 PM
Coming down to the last few steps, well, maybe a dozen steps, on the bearing blocks and engine beds. This morning got started taking the sides of the bearing blocks down to final profile. Here is what they are looking like before this step:
(https://i.postimg.cc/85XySttL/IMG-9594.jpg)

The sides of the bearing blocks are just that - blocks, sticking out from the side rails. With the engine bed squared up to the mill table and clamped down, the sides were taken down at the ends to be flush with the side rails. Started with the top half - tried a longer end mill to do it all at once, but the finish was not smooth so I went back to a standard length cutter.

(https://i.postimg.cc/GtZqB902/IMG-9595.jpg)
Did the cuts on the inside and outside rail edges, then flipped the part over to do the bottom halves of all four corners
(https://i.postimg.cc/MHc9KVFN/IMG-9596.jpg)
Will do the same on the other two engine beds, then move on to doing the top ends, to get them shaped to the top of the side rails. One of the bearing block faces, the one on the IP cylinder facing the HP cylinder side, gets a different shape than this, to form the mount for the lay shaft drive gear. That will be done last, as will rounding the bottom edges of the bearing blocks.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on July 04, 2021, 07:42:34 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 04, 2021, 09:42:49 PM
Some more information on that square box/bolt thingy on the pump housings - I was digging through the Holly blueprints some more, and found this gem:
(https://i.postimg.cc/W3gJT7mh/Pipe-Flange-Question-2.jpg)
In several places they refer to the bolts on those box shapes around the flanges as 'Stay Bolts' - a term I am used to seeing on boiler plans. Given the location, horizontally above and below an opening and that they are only present on pressurized chambers, not there on intake/suction chambers, this lends more credence to the theory that it is there for strength purposes, helping reinforce the opening against the outward pressure. The bolts through them would give compression to that area.
Unless any of the commercial-vessel experts have another explanation?
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 04, 2021, 09:51:00 PM
And a little more on the bearing blocks - got the sides all milled down like in the previous post, so next step is to round over the bottoms of the protrusions on the sides. Easiest way to do that was to pull the blocks off the engine beds and mount them on the rotary table with an arbor and mill that edge. Hard to see in the photo, but the bottom edge was taken back in an arc to the level of the panels at the end, which are at the level of the side rails. Both sides of each bearing block, except for the one face with the gear housing mount, will be taken down this way.
(https://i.postimg.cc/d08q0NXP/IMG-9599.jpg)
To get the cap to stay on, some little sections of tube were cut to act as spacers on the studs, the threaded ends were not long enough to hold the cap on without the rest of the engine bed being there.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on July 05, 2021, 12:19:27 AM
Hi Chris, re stay bolts - that note indicates to me too that the bolts are helping the casting withstand internal pressures, just like stay bolts in a boiler do.

The bearing machining looks great!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 05, 2021, 12:23:58 AM
Hi Chris, re stay bolts - that note indicates to me too that the bolts are helping the casting withstand internal pressures, just like stay bolts in a boiler do.

The bearing machining looks great!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:


Great!  I asked a couple friends about it too, one passed it along to a structure engineer he knows, he said same thing. Calling that one explained!   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on July 05, 2021, 12:58:50 AM
Explained?.......not sure  :shrug:

The issue I could not understand was how did they ensure these bolts were adequately tightened?.......or became loose due to gross cyclic or harmonic vibration?.....so this at first appears to be resolved with the following explanation 'courtesy Google'

Locomotive Boilers and Engines. Stay-Bolts. The universal method of staying flat surfaces of the fire-box at the sides and front is by the use of stay-bolts. These stay-bolts are screwed through the two sheets of the fire-box and are riveted over on both ends.

Would be interesting if these 'riveting procedures instructions :hammerbash: appear in any assembly Drawings

Fully explained?.......:disagree: ... the stay bolts in the boiler explanation as above relates for the securing two [2] opposing 'separated surfaces'  :Argue: .....in this pipe spool application the bolts only provide tension to the diameter of the washer for the 3" diameter threaded stud, within the 'solid section' of the cast lug  :headscratch:


Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 05, 2021, 01:25:31 AM
Hi Derek,


Unfortunately no assembly instructions included in the drawings for this or any other parts, so no way to be sure. Some  places they mention machining a surface or reaming a hole for a taper pin, but thats it. Probably lots of procedures that those crews knew to do, but no ISO9000 stuff back then! The fact that two different companies did the same thing on similar parts indicates it was not done on one designer's whim.


At least it's a reasonable explanation for the feature on he casting, it had to withstand pressure pulses every couple seconds, hard to say how high the pressure was, certainly a lot less than a boiler, but repeated.


Chris
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on July 05, 2021, 01:45:38 AM
Absolutely.....lets get me back to watching [again] :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:.... & keep the mouth closed apart from a :wine1:

Our engineering forefathers :NotWorthy: were certainly not Mugs :Doh: ...our current Crew are so smart, they still cannot figure how their fathers did things without computers & CNC & faith in a supreme power

Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: MJM460 on July 05, 2021, 04:31:41 AM
Hi Chris, I have not seen a detail like that in my forty years in the oil industry, but for me, that “stay bolt” note settles which of the two likely purposes others have proposed was intended.  However it may well have been used for both purposes.  Of course, the oil industry does not use cast fittings for pressure piping, but when those engines were built, available material and fabrication techniques were different.

Normally, a side branch is reinforced by the “area replacement” method, which results in the reinforcing pads normally seen around pressure vessel nozzles, or integral reinforcement on forged tee fittings.

However in this case, there is a very large diameter branch in a very short fitting, making it difficult to fit in sufficient reinforcement.  Those bolts would add considerably to the strength of the fitting to withstand the circumferential stresses in the straight section.  The longitudinal stresses are only half the circumferential stress for any given pressure, so longitudinal bolts would not be needed.  Particularly with cast fittings, those steel bolts in tension would be considerably stronger than the cast iron, so by pre-compressing the iron they would help ensure the integrity of the fitting in the absence of sufficient other reinforcing.  Note that this is a very different application than the boiler staybolts as Derek has described for flat plates.

But I am also hoping that Propforward will come in here, as he is using far more sophisticated tools than were ever available to me for these calculations.

Regarding the pressure involved, I did notice your little hint a while back that I could explain water hammer in my thermodynamics thread.  I have sorted out sufficient maths, but am still thinking about how to present it so it is actually understandable for anyone interested.  I have the book by an expert, but while chapter one is very clear, I am sure the author dropped the papers on the floor before publishing and there seems to be three chapters missing between chapter one and two.  Certainly a leap too far for me.  The maths to get started is simple enough, to get as far as pulsation levels  and forces, but how to present it without a pile of unintelligible graphs is a challenge.  So stay tuned, it is coming

MJM460


Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 05, 2021, 01:01:49 PM
Great MJM, thanks!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 05, 2021, 08:55:07 PM
Got the rest of the bearing block sides acred at the bottom yesterday, the one with the mounting pad for the gearbox gets a much simpler side panel, just one large semmicircle.
(https://i.postimg.cc/N0kVGDZL/IMG-9600.jpg)
that is drilled for the gearbox mounting screws
(https://i.postimg.cc/zv622cH2/IMG-9601.jpg)
While the rotary table was set up for that set of holes, I put in an offcut piece of roundbar and drilled it to match the pattern. This will be used as a drill alignment guide when the gearbox housing is made later. Carefully marked to what it is so I have a chance of finding it later on.

(https://i.postimg.cc/QtNzF5rm/IMG-9602.jpg)
So here is where the parts stand at the moment
(https://i.postimg.cc/PJPF4jJ8/IMG-9603.jpg)
Next shaping will be on the upper corners of the bearing blocks where they go across the top of the side rails.
(https://i.postimg.cc/MZFLGv30/IMG-9604.jpg)
They were rounded off using an end mill and taken flush to the tops of the side rails.
(https://i.postimg.cc/gJMT8JzW/IMG-9605.jpg)
That finishes the shaping of the bearing blocks and the engine beds
(https://i.postimg.cc/DwVYqRT8/IMG-9606.jpg)
Getting close to done on them - got the holes drilled/tapped in the sides of the engine beds for the brackets to hold the catwalk floor at that level. The catwalk goes around the entire engine, in the center between the beds the floor is a step higher to give better access to the bearings. Lots of 1-72 holes to thread, glad I have the tapping guide now.

(https://i.postimg.cc/7YJWJwjF/IMG-9607.jpg)
Final steps before assembling things again is to sand down the toolmarks
(https://i.postimg.cc/L8zQvv9v/IMG-9608.jpg)
and get things painted....  I need to test if I'll be able to get between the engine beds to install the floor brackets there, or if they need to be made first. Assembly is going to be fiddly, the vertical braces down to the pump chambers need to go in at the same time so the order of things will need to be worked out to ensure I can get at all the screws.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on July 05, 2021, 09:52:11 PM
Wow, Chris!  That is a lot of nice work.  I'll bet you're happy to move on to something besides bearing blocks now!  :popcorn: :popcorn:

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 05, 2021, 09:57:25 PM
Wow, Chris!  That is a lot of nice work.  I'll bet you're happy to move on to something besides bearing blocks now!  :popcorn: :popcorn:

Kim
Yeah, to bearings!!   :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Admiral_dk on July 05, 2021, 10:43:31 PM
Still enjoying your Journey and fine work  :praise2:   :cheers:   :popcorn:

Quote
While the rotary table was set up for that set of holes, I put in an offcut piece of roundbar and drilled it to match the pattern. This will be used as a drill alignment guide when the gearbox housing is made later. Carefully marked to what it is so I have a chance of finding it later on.

Very good idea - but I do not see any reference showing what side it belongs to .... please don't do like I do from time to time and "mirror" the reference  :embarassed:

Per
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 05, 2021, 10:51:15 PM
Still enjoying your Journey and fine work  :praise2:   :cheers:   :popcorn:

Quote
While the rotary table was set up for that set of holes, I put in an offcut piece of roundbar and drilled it to match the pattern. This will be used as a drill alignment guide when the gearbox housing is made later. Carefully marked to what it is so I have a chance of finding it later on.

Very good idea - but I do not see any reference showing what side it belongs to .... please don't do like I do from time to time and "mirror" the reference  :embarassed:

Per
The holes are evenly spaced around the rim, so the side doesn't matter - though the side with the writing on it is the side facing away from the engine bed. The main thing I wanted to capture was the actual distance from the center of the shaft, that is hard to measure on these shapes in any case, and when the engine beds are assembled on the model getting in to measure that would be even harder. So, used a disc from the scrap bin to capture it!
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 06, 2021, 12:06:54 AM
Just went down and grabbed the engine beds from my paint booth (a cardboard lined bench) - wow, what a difference in the appearance with a single coat on!
(https://i.postimg.cc/xj4rhsKP/IMG-9609.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: kvom on July 06, 2021, 12:01:01 PM
A lot of work there!   :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on July 06, 2021, 12:11:45 PM
Wow! they look even better in paint!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 06, 2021, 04:32:39 PM
Thanks guys!

A little lathe time this morning, got the blanks for the bearings turned to size. I am going to wait till the crankshaft is done to bore the insides, just in case I miss the diameters by a thou or three when turning the crankshaft. And yes, the bearings will be split - I like to turn/bore them from solid then cut them with a fine bladed jewelers saw - the few thou lost to the kerf gives room for them to come together with lapping and wear, and it saves the effort of joining/splitting a larger block.

(https://i.postimg.cc/2jxHtYtW/IMG-9612.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 06, 2021, 11:36:19 PM
After all the milling work this spring/summer, its been fun to get back on the lathe for some major parts. I got a whole lot more done on the crankshaft today than I expected to - started out with a 3/4" 303 Stainless roundbar slightly longer than the finished shaft. At about 10" long, no way would I attempt to just hold it in the chuck for center drilling the ends, so I set up the steady rest to hold the outboard end and drilled both ends for centers.
(https://i.postimg.cc/jj9ZYQ0n/IMG-9613.jpg)
That let me set up the bar with a dead center and faceplate at the headstock and a live center in the tailstock, with the steady rest out near the outer end.
(https://i.postimg.cc/9M71mRC8/IMG-9614.jpg)
The lathe dog that comes with the Sherline does not have a large enough ID, but several projects back I had made a larger ring that could take a 3/4" bar, with a long screw to engage a bolt in the faceplate.
(https://i.postimg.cc/wMY27qB6/IMG-9615.jpg)
Working from the outboard end, which happens to be the HP cylinder end (the bosses on the crankshaft are not symmetric, the flywheel boss on the HP end is longer to also hold the lay shaft drive gear), I first turned the end down to .550 to take the HP crank web. The end cranks are single sided, the center one is double sided. The plan is to make the crank webs seperately and attach them with loctite plus cross taper pins. On the original they were press fit with keyways to keep them aligned.

(https://i.postimg.cc/T1j9bzyn/IMG-9616.jpg)
Then moved the steady rest one section back, and turned the outer bearing section.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Njj4yPQr/IMG-9617.jpg)
Then continued my way back one section at a time, with the first flywheel boss. The plan is to have the flywheels held with taper locks in their hubs to grip the crankshaft and keep them running true, plus a keyway to keep them from any chance of spinning - the originals had keys, and the flywheels were in two semicircle halves bolting down around the crankshaft.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZKcH5hzS/IMG-9618.jpg)
The sections between the larger bosses are where the bearings will support the crankshaft, they are all the same diameter. The center boss is slightly larger diameter than the flywheel bosses, so the center webs can be passed down to the center. Turning in these narrower areas required switching back and forth between left and right cutters.
(https://i.postimg.cc/xTYgQ175/IMG-9619.jpg)
This continued down the length, moving the steady rest one section back at a time, applying new grease and cleaning up the precious one as I went, till I got to the LP end.
(https://i.postimg.cc/fWY519Hk/IMG-9620.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/dVN9Gm0N/IMG-9621.jpg)
The crank web section at the LP end was not accessible for turning with the lathe dog and faceplate there, so for that one last cut I turned the crankshaft around and did that one at the outer end of the lathe. Still ran true - nice thing about turning between centers, the setup is repeatable.
So, after cleaning off the grease from the steady rest, here is the crankshaft so far, sitting where it will be on the engine beds (well, above where it will be, have not bored the bearings yet). I'm going to turn a short test bar that matches the diameter of the bearing sections of the shaft, to test with the bearings as they are bored (learned that one from some of you guys on your builds!)

(https://i.postimg.cc/0N60nMMk/IMG-9622.jpg)
As you can see, the larger diameter boss on the right, between the right two engine beds, is longer than the one at the other end - that is for the flywheel plus the lay shaft gear, the one on the left will just have the second flywheel (yup - two 7" diameter flywheels!) The boss in the center is where the center crank web will be - that center will be cut out after adding the webs. The very ends of the shaft, where they come through the end web plates, will be milled off flush with the web faces after the webs are attached.

So far so good!  Time to go celebrate the progress with the shop elves, got some new dark chocolate bars with almonds today... if they haven't eaten them already...
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on July 07, 2021, 01:08:55 AM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on July 07, 2021, 05:12:42 AM
Great start on the crankshaft, Chris!  :popcorn:
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 07, 2021, 05:52:35 PM
Thanks guys!
Got the bearings bored out to size, ready to split...
(https://i.postimg.cc/JzB0MvnQ/IMG-9623.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 07, 2021, 10:27:21 PM
This afternoon I was taking some time to figure out how and what order to assemble things in around the engine beds. I fitted the vertical supports between the IP engine bed and the center pump chamber, and bolted it down to see what kind of hand/finger room there will be. Not much!  One thing I will do before assembling is to make the catwalk brackets that go on the inside edges of the engine beds. In this picture, there are a bunch of small blue arrows showing their locations - the ones on the outer edges can go one later but the inner ones would be very tough to bolt in once the beds are installed - each one gets two or three 1-72 screws.

(https://i.postimg.cc/hjPbHBB2/IMG-9624.jpg)
Not much room down at the pump level either, and this is before the vertical supports for the outer two cylinders goes in, just the ones on the center cylinder in place at the moment.
(https://i.postimg.cc/TPcJ7PZy/IMG-9625.jpg)
Another set of things that needs to be made and installed first are the vertical rods that drive the pump plungers from the crosshead up above. Each plunger gets four rods, one at each corner.
(https://i.postimg.cc/bvPR9nFc/IMG-9626.jpg)
As you can see, not much room to get in there, and there is not enough room to remove/replace the plunger with the engine bed and the vertical supports in place - I know, just tried this center one! Here is a view of the plunger from the top - you'd think that it could be lifted right on up and out with the crankshaft out of the way, but it will not clear the bearing block protrusions.
(https://i.postimg.cc/bwkTngg9/IMG-9627.jpg)
That view shows why the bearing blocks had to be cut back at the corners of the bearings - those little quarter-round recesses are where the plunger rods pass by. Thats one thing I noticed on the Allis engine that is different than this Holly engine - on the Allis they put guide bearings where the rods go past the engine bed sides, not so on the Holly.

So, next steps: - split the crankshaft bearings
 - make/install the plunger rods - make/install the catwalk brackets - make/install the crankshaft webs
 - start on the flywheels and the bevel gears for the lay shaft

And another thing I learned - I need to make a cloth or paper tent over the pumps and the lowest catwalk - any dropped nuts or screws rattle down through that maze, and go into the most inaccessible places down at the bottom level. Dropped two of the crankshaft bearing cap nuts - found one sitting inside one of the holes through the base plate that I was just able to snag with a dental pick. The other one was eaten by the bed plates, probably went through one of those holes and slid under the base plate. My shop elves wont fit down there to retrieve it, so will have to make another one. I think there are a couple of 2-56 screws hiding down there too - at least those I have a lot of!

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on July 07, 2021, 11:25:04 PM
Yeah, that definitely looks pretty tight in there Chris!  Good luck getting it all together!  But I'm certain you will find a way!  ;D

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 08, 2021, 05:56:48 PM
Decided to get a start on the plunger rods. Got the set of them (12 rods) cut to length and the ends turned down to form the shoulders and thread the ends. Good opportunity for more learning on the single-point threading, so I am using that setup rather than using a die. The length of the rod past the shoulder means that there is a lot of bending force from the cutter, flexing the end of the rod back and especially up as it is turned into the cutter. I did some reading up on follower rests, which are tricky to implement on the Sherline since there is no compound slide so if the rest is attached to the cross slide, it moves in with the cut. A compound slide attachment exists, and I have one, but it is designed to work on the back of the part as it rises, and the opening in it is not large enough for my insert holder. Thought about making an adapter end to take the insert holder, and may still do that for future use, but for now I tried a very simple approach. Since the tip of the rod mainly wants to rise up during the cut, I cut an overhang on a bit of bar stock and clamped that to the cross slide to hold the rod down. Seems to work perfectly for these cuts.
(https://i.postimg.cc/QC0NxCfW/IMG-9629.jpg)
Takes a little extra cleaning to get the oily chips out, but its doing the job for now, and will let me tackle a more adjustable design later on. Sherline makes a follower, but it also clamps to the cross slide so the back part of the rest would need constant adjustment to. And this solution for now is free and here in the shop. Sold!

For reference, here is a picture of the first two rods screwed into the top of the pump plunger, showing how they come up around the sides of the crankshaft. There will be four per cylinder, at each corner of the opening around the crank. The crank webs are set in from the bearings to clear the rods.
(https://i.postimg.cc/NG4jxCQf/IMG-9632.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on July 08, 2021, 07:26:43 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: EricB on July 08, 2021, 07:57:43 PM
Sherline's follower rest mounts to the lathe saddle, not the cross slide. It stays in position relative the the spindle center.

Nice work so far!

Eric
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 08, 2021, 08:00:56 PM
Sherline's follower rest mounts to the lathe saddle, not the cross slide. It stays in position relative the the spindle center.

Nice work so far!

Eric
But, on the product page it shows that it connects to the T slot. How's it stay stationary?  Gotta go look again...
EDIT:
Okay, looked at the instructions this time, and you are right!  I thought it was secured with the t-slot, but they have that set up to slide. Clever.

Hmmmm, the shop elves owe me from that poker game last night, maybe I'll use THIER credit card and order one!  Thanks!
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: EricB on July 08, 2021, 08:10:37 PM
The rest mounts to the front edge of the saddle and sits on the ways of the lathe bed. The part in the "T" slot provides extra downard pressure on the rest to keep it against the ways, but still allows the cross slide to move.

It works for small diameter stock but higher cutting forces can cause the brass fingers on the rest to move.

Eric
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 08, 2021, 08:20:01 PM
The rest mounts to the front edge of the saddle and sits on the ways of the lathe bed. The part in the "T" slot provides extra downard pressure on the rest to keep it against the ways, but still allows the cross slide to move.

It works for small diameter stock but higher cutting forces can cause the brass fingers on the rest to move.

Eric
For threading small rod like this it should be more than strong enough - thanks for the tip!!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 09, 2021, 04:44:51 PM
The pump rods are all threaded at both ends, and I made up another batch of a few dozen of the nuts - needed some for the rods, know that more will be needed later for other parts...
(https://i.postimg.cc/XJkp1hHj/IMG-9634.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on July 09, 2021, 08:32:20 PM
Looks like you had some hexagon therapy Chris !  :Lol:  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 09, 2021, 08:59:52 PM
Looks like you had some hexagon therapy Chris !  :Lol: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:


Nice easy parts, a nice change!  This afternoon I started splitting the bearings with a jewelers saw, three of four cut. After marking both sides to ensure the halves stay together - learned that one the hard way on an engine!  The sawblade is only 14 thou thick so very little kerf loss. With the first three set in place its looking like the horizontal alignment is spot on, might need just a thin shim under one bed, won't know for sure till everything is bolted down quite pleased so far!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 10, 2021, 09:52:41 PM
As mentioned, the crankshaft bearings were split with a jewelers saw with a fine blade, about 12 thou thick
(https://i.postimg.cc/mZm2bSyh/IMG-9635.jpg)
Got them test fit in the engine beds, checking with a straightedge showed that the middle bed needed to come up just a bit to line them all up (horzontally they lined up great). So, put in a couple thin (5 thou) bits of shim stock under the corners of the middle engine bed and it all went right into line.  :cartwheel:
(https://i.postimg.cc/R0xvPp4p/IMG-9636.jpg)
Here they are with the caps set in place. The bearings are still a little bit of a snug sliding fit on the shaft, so after the beds are all bolted down permanently and the crank webs are on, I'll run it in with some fine lapping compound.
(https://i.postimg.cc/9fPCsPfm/IMG-9637.jpg)
The obligatory family shot...
(https://i.postimg.cc/76xw4CCg/IMG-9638.jpg)
Before bolting down the end engine beds, I wanted to make the catwalk brackets that sit between the beds, easier to get the screws in when they are separate. Started with some rectangular bar, and milled recesses on both sides to form the flanges
(https://i.postimg.cc/kXDMDtTs/IMG-9639.jpg)
Here the bar is with both sides recessed, ready to cut them apart into the individual brackets
(https://i.postimg.cc/9MJVQWTs/IMG-9640.jpg)
The ends were then milled off to smooth out the saw marks and make them all the same length, and the mounting holes were drilled in the short face, holes drilled/tapped in the long face for screwing down the floor plates to.
(https://i.postimg.cc/yY51RY5H/IMG-9641.jpg)
The bottom edges were milled at an angle to form the rest of the bracket, used a piece of wood notched at the angle to hold them all the same (making 14 of them)
(https://i.postimg.cc/VkCYWPQb/IMG-9642.jpg)
A spritz of paint and screwed them in place on the engine beds - the floor plates will be added later on. There are still quite a few longer brackets to make that will go around the outside of the engine beds for the main catwalk at that level (there will be two more catwalk levels up above). Those longer brackets get cutouts in the center, and have three mounting holes rather than two.
(https://i.postimg.cc/d33F7zj3/IMG-9645.jpg)
Next steps? Getting the other two engine beds and vertical pump supports bolted in, making the crank webs, then will start in on the flywheels - two of them, 7.5" diameter by 1/2" thick at the rims, with taper lock centers. I have a couple of large cast bronze flywheels from Martin that I am going to use. Having them flywheels will make it a lot easier to spin things to lap in the bearings. Also, I need to make the bevel gears for the lay shaft, one goes on next to the HP end flywheel, along with the gear case. Then on to the rest of the catwalk... Long way to go just to finish up this level of the engine! :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RReid on July 10, 2021, 11:04:16 PM
It gets awfully hard to think of new superlatives to use when commenting on your work. Just awesome.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on July 10, 2021, 11:18:44 PM
Lot of nice little brackets there, Chris!  Love how you did the production line of them then cut them apart.  :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn:
And they use two screws per bracket to attach them?

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 10, 2021, 11:31:47 PM
Lot of nice little brackets there, Chris!  Love how you did the production line of them then cut them apart.  :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn:
And they use two screws per bracket to attach them?

Kim
Thanks guys! Much easier to mill the shapes in as one long bar before cutting apart, lot less fiddling about with clamping each one. Without stress relieving, the bar would warp in both directions as the first side is cut.

Kim, these brackets have two screws each - the later ones have a much longer and taller profile, so there is a third screw at the bottom end on those. This picture shows the brackets at the upper two levels - for all the levels and things they attach to, the plans show a couple dozen variations on the theme:

(https://i.postimg.cc/k4484gzb/DSC-7463.jpg)

I was just playing around in Fusion and Gearotic Motion (gear calc app) to work out the sizes for the lay shaft bevel gears to see how many teeth and angles to use given the size gear cutters I have. Works out that at Module 0.6, the large gears are 54 tooth, small are 12, with a 77 degree bevel angle combination. While looking at the gear housing at the lower end, I also realized that it needs to be made and installed with the crankshaft as well as the gear, since the housing is one piece all the way around the gear/shaft.  The housing includes the bearing mount for the take-off shaft that runs up to the lay shaft....
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on July 10, 2021, 11:58:16 PM
Looks great Chris! glad to hear the bearings lined up so close. Lot of work just in the catwalk supports.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on July 11, 2021, 12:07:07 AM
That's pretty amazing, Chris.  I see a lot of brackets in your future!  :Lol:
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 11, 2021, 12:09:15 AM
That's pretty amazing, Chris.  I see a lot of brackets in your future!  :Lol:
Kim
Yeah.  :-\   At least they are not crawler tracks this time! 
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 11, 2021, 02:25:04 PM
This morning saw the two outside engine beds and vertical column sets installed for good (I hope) - lots of screws in hard to reach spots, but its looking like a proper forest in there now!
(https://i.postimg.cc/Qd8kGG19/IMG-9646.jpg)
The four pump rods on each plunger can be screwed in from the top, so I didn't have to get fingers in there too, I did put in a little oil on each plunger's o-ring while it was accessible though.The crankshaft holes are all lining up well - put a straightedge down the length and could not see any light through, so it should all be close enough to lap in the bearings.Next I think I'll start on the crank webs, have been coming up with the schemes to hold and turn the flywheels and their hubs too....
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 11, 2021, 08:06:06 PM
So this morning I put together the crankshaft web 'kit' - rough cut lengths of the flat and round bar needed for the three webs/cranks.

(https://i.postimg.cc/HkhwcT6q/IMG-9649.jpg)
For the center crank, two flat bar pieces were lined up and screwed together to keep them in alignment for the boring operations. The two screw holes will get plugged later - well worth it to avoid any movement. The crank pin hole was bored at one end, and started boring out the crank shaft hole at the other - the two holes are 1.031" apart to match the scaled down 33" offset/66" throw on the pistons.
(https://i.postimg.cc/k4xKpK7C/IMG-9650.jpg)
Since the large hole needs to match the diameter of the existing crankshaft, and measuring the ID of a hole can be tricky, I took a page from others here (sorry, I forget who I learned this one from - you know who you are, think I've seen it on a couple threads) and turned a step gauge block. The largest step measures the same as the center boss on the crankshaft, and the next three steps are one thou smaller each. That way I could get it close and fine tune the last couple passes till the gauge would just slide in, without having to remove the block from the vise since the crankshaft is too long to trial fit it in place. Here it is almost there, one more step to go:

(https://i.postimg.cc/2yrhRy5Z/IMG-9651.jpg)
Another pass with the boring head, set almost one more tick in, and it just slides into place:
(https://i.postimg.cc/B6W2pM9N/IMG-9652.jpg)
Moment of truth - took it out of the mill and test fit on the crankshaft, it just slides onto the center boss - snug enough that it stays in place but just loose enough not to bind up and jam. Should be perfect for assembling with loctite and taper pins.
(https://i.postimg.cc/6Q4dCFSy/IMG-9654.jpg)
And that seems like a perfect place to walk away for the day and bask in the accomplishment, do any more and I risk swarfing it up from getting a little tired. Tomorrow I can turn the crank pin, which will be full diameter in the center and step down to be a snug fit in the holes in the webs. It will also be loctited/taper-pinned into place. The original had a keyway on the main shaft, and the crank pin had a square end to go into the web. The taper pins and loctite should do the same job for the model.

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on July 11, 2021, 11:05:20 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on July 12, 2021, 05:46:35 AM
  :ThumbsUp: Great start on the crank web, Chris.  I'm a big believer in those sliding go/no-go gauges.   They work a treat!   :popcorn: :popcorn:

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 12, 2021, 03:48:27 PM
Got the crankpin turned to fit the webs,

(https://i.postimg.cc/SN8B70D3/IMG-9655.jpg)
Then filled the screw holes with some JB Kwikweld - left the epoxy standing proud, after it had set up trimmed it flush with a sharp knife. Also sanded the corners. Here is a test fit on the model
(https://i.postimg.cc/2S7gMQpx/IMG-9657.jpg)
All looking good, it clears the engine beds when turning, so I got the webs/pin all loctited up, careful to wipe off any excess so it doesn't want to stick to the bearings later.

(https://i.postimg.cc/Hkgf6SNx/IMG-9658.jpg)
I'll let that set up overnight, tomorrow can drill/ream for the taper pins. I'll get started on the end crank webs, but I can't install those till the flywheels and the gear/gearbox are made. Given the tight quarters for the gearbox mounting, I am thinking that I need to change the box to a top/bottom two-piece assembly since there will be no room to get in there to put in the mounting screws with the flywheel in place next to it. I dont have a scale-sized apprentice to hang on a rope by his ankles like they probably did in real life!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 13, 2021, 12:27:14 AM
Side project, maybe....

One thing that I've been wanting for a long time is a much smaller ratchet handle. I've got a set of Wiha tool bits with sockets/torx/hex/etc bits, all with a 4mm hex base. The handles for it are very good, but there are times that I need to get in between other parts and a ratchet handle would be the way to go. I found a smallish ratchet meant for headlight adjusting on Fords, that I was able to adapt to take the 4mm hex shanks. Works quite well, but is still a bit large. Decided to see what I could draw up in Fusion, and with a little fiddling came up with this as a start:
(https://i.postimg.cc/fRsrcB2v/ratchet.jpg)

Like other small ratchets, a reversing lever would add size, so it would be used to drive with the bit on one side, remove with the bit on the other. The center cylinder with the hex opening would be made by adapting the 4mm driver from the Wiha set (spares can be bought seperately). For scale, the grid behind it is a 1" major grid size with 10 smaller grids per inch, so the end section is .31" by .4", cover held with a 2-56 screw.

In looking back at it, one thing I'm going to change is increase the number of teeth on the ratchet wheel, as drawn its only 8, which means a 45 degree 'click' minimum, and smaller angle would be better. That might make the width a little smaller too... I've got pieces of clock spring sheets that could be used on the pawl.

Spot anything else I am missing? Looks makeable - some bits of 303 stainless would work well.

Might actually make this - if it works I'll post the drawings for everyone.
Chris :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RReid on July 13, 2021, 01:05:27 AM
That looks like a pretty slick idea, and should be a very useful tool if you go forward with it. I hope you do build it and post drawings, I'd be inclined to build one.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dave Otto on July 13, 2021, 01:21:08 AM
Hi Chris

I have a set like this at work and also one at home. It is similar to your proposed design except it uses a spline on each tool to engage the pawl.
https://www.newmantools.com/wfmc.htm


Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on July 13, 2021, 01:40:09 AM
Nice tooling ideas! If you knew anyone with a wire EDM machine you could make the pawl and a curved spring, for even more compact design, in one piece out of a piece of pre-hardened gauge plate. (if it's worth doing, it's worth OVER doing!)  :Lol:  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 13, 2021, 02:14:05 AM
Hi Chris

I have a set like this at work and also one at home. It is similar to your proposed design except it uses a spline on each tool to engage the pawl.
https://www.newmantools.com/wfmc.htm (https://www.newmantools.com/wfmc.htm)


Dave
Nice setup- how big is the ratchet head?
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 13, 2021, 02:23:05 AM
Been searching around, found some other ratchet designs that would be a lot finer resolution and still small... More tomorrow.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 13, 2021, 04:31:12 PM
More playing around with the ratchet design - fun to do. I've changed the gear and ratchet pawl setup, got it to be reversing with 16 teeth in the same size, body is a little shallower but the reverse lever adds back some height. The end screw on the lever can drop into detents in the cover to hold it in place - slack in the screw holes will give it room to do so. I chose the gear tooth shape so I can cut them with the end corner of an end mill, no special cutter needed. The hex socket I can cut from the extension bar made for the Wiha tools, the hex opening is 4mm, their bits are nice and small, makes the unit much smaller than a standard 1/4" drive ratchet.
(https://i.postimg.cc/XYghLqvh/ratchet2.jpg)

Should be an easy build - will likely make up the prototype between crankshaft parts.
Speaking of crankshaft parts, I've gotten a start on profiling the end crank webs, pics on that later...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dave Otto on July 13, 2021, 06:07:51 PM
Hi Chris

I have a set like this at work and also one at home. It is similar to your proposed design except it uses a spline on each tool to engage the pawl.
https://www.newmantools.com/wfmc.htm (https://www.newmantools.com/wfmc.htm)


Dave
Nice setup- how big is the ratchet head?


It is .428" wide and .455" tall, the square part of the head is about 1.2" long.

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 13, 2021, 06:21:25 PM
Hi Chris

I have a set like this at work and also one at home. It is similar to your proposed design except it uses a spline on each tool to engage the pawl.
https://www.newmantools.com/wfmc.htm (https://www.newmantools.com/wfmc.htm)


Dave
Nice setup- how big is the ratchet head?


It is .428" wide and .455" tall, the square part of the head is about 1.2" long.

Dave
Great, thanks!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dave Otto on July 13, 2021, 06:31:03 PM
It does have a pretty stiff spring, so might not work real well is a situation where the fastener does not have much resistance and you can't get a finger on it to add some.

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 13, 2021, 07:34:30 PM
It does have a pretty stiff spring, so might not work real well is a situation where the fastener does not have much resistance and you can't get a finger on it to add some.

Dave
Good to know. Since I already have the big set of Wiha bits, I think I'll just go ahead and try making my own small one. The design I've got is about the same width, just a bit shallower, than that one. I've got several thicknesses of clock spring material (pendulum suspension spring too, which is thinner), will try different thicknesses and see what works best. I had not thought of being able to spin the bit by hand for starting screws, good idea!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 13, 2021, 11:11:22 PM
Some really good progress on the end crank webs. To bore the large hole at the crank end of each, I drilled/bored them on the lathe rather than with the boring head on the mill - it went a lot faster this way without having to stop between passes to increase the throw on the boring head. It just took a little extra measurement to get the offset correct for the small hole on the mill, but overall a lot faster.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Bv9tZpDW/IMG-9659.jpg)
The placement of the small hole for the crank pin is important, so that was done on the mill. The bars were left a little long before boring the holes, so the first hole just had to be close-ish.

(https://i.postimg.cc/VNqvJtBJ/IMG-9661.jpg)
Both webs (HP and LP cylinders) bored and the outlines sketched on as a double-check when setting up.

(https://i.postimg.cc/NFMjCzhX/IMG-9662.jpg)
The sides were taken down first - used a pair of drill shanks in the holes and on top of the vise to set the angle consistantly.
(https://i.postimg.cc/rynmRMWN/IMG-9663.jpg)
Then set up the rotary table and tooling plate on the mill - screwed a small piece of stock turned to the size of the bore in the center hole of the tooling plate to position the webs. Parts were clamped down with some card stock underneath so the end mill could be set just above the tooling plate.
(https://i.postimg.cc/4NY3zqQk/IMG-9665.jpg)
After doing both large ends, the alignment pin was replaced with a smaller one sized for the crank pin holes, and the webs clamped on again one at a time.
(https://i.postimg.cc/8c0P2mD0/IMG-9666.jpg)
and rounded those ends over as well...
(https://i.postimg.cc/PxdxYq22/IMG-9667.jpg)
Next to last shaping step was back on the lathe, turning the crank pin ends down to thickness, leaving a boss at the shaft end.
(https://i.postimg.cc/wvFBVdrH/IMG-9668.jpg)
One turned down so far, one to go. Then the last shaping is to thin the boss down to final thickness, the parts were cut from 1/2" thick bar, the part is a little thinner than that.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RReid on July 14, 2021, 12:42:34 AM
A great sequence and a very "cranky" looking result!  :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on July 14, 2021, 01:00:08 AM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 14, 2021, 01:05:46 AM
Thanks guys!  Just finished taking the second web down. Test fitting again showed that the steel bar did move just a hair, the previously round shaft holes went just a little bit oblong along the length of the web, as the rolling stresses from when they made the bar came into play as the sides were machined away. Not much, just enough to bind what was a close sliding fit as they slid on the shaft, needed a little filing to correct so all is well again. Would have been better to finish the hopes last, but would have been harder to hold on the mill. Next time I will hopefully remember that!


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 14, 2021, 09:39:33 PM
Last update yesterday I was working on the end crank webs. Since then finished up both of them, here they are set in place on the crankshaft (cant affix them yet, till flywheels and gear go on)

(https://i.postimg.cc/wBDnP7Pz/IMG-9670.jpg)
Then turned the crank pins - these were loctited into the ends of the webs, will be taper-pinned in place in a couple days.
(https://i.postimg.cc/7PKdpvB5/IMG-9672.jpg)
Then I decided to start on the bevel gears. Since the model needs two matched sets, one on the crankshaft and another at the lay shaft, both pairs will be made at once. They are 12 and 54 tooth bevel gears, with a 77.5 degree cone angle, cut with a Module 0.6 cutter set. After going through the spreadsheets created a couple years ago with help from several others on this forum to get the math done, I set up to cut the small pinion gears first - if anything went wrong, its not much work or material wasted! So, started with the compound rest on the lath to make the blank for the first one:
(https://i.postimg.cc/prcS889f/IMG-9677.jpg)
and set up the rotary table at the same angle on the mill to cut the teeth. I'll be using the parallel-depth process, which normally uses three passes to shape the teeth. Since these gears are such a small size I am skipping the initial pass and going straight to the second and third passes - with larger teeth the first pass takes out the bulk of the material and the other two shape in the teeth to final angles, but with such small teeth there is very little taken on the later passes that I can skip the first step - read about that in one of the books, and it worked.
(https://i.postimg.cc/X7hhYf63/IMG-9679.jpg)
And went around the blank cutting the 12 teeth.
(https://i.postimg.cc/pTZ4W3R1/IMG-9680.jpg)
At this point I could tell something was very wrong - the tops of the teeth were little knives, very little width to them. Went back and checked the spreadsheet, checked the dimensions, depth of cut, all that. Several times. Then realized the problem - all the handwheels, including the rotary table, on the Sherline have 5 major ticks and 10 minor ticks per major one - I am very accustomed to that. BUT - the compound slide with its very small scale has 5 major ticks and just 5 minor ticks per major one. That means I wasn't at the 12.5 degree angle I wanted, but at 14.5 degrees instead.   :zap:   So, the taper was too steep, which meant when I set the depth of cut out near the tip, the cut was way too deep at the base.  As the Mythbusters would say - THERES your problem! 

Fortunately it was not much lost, so I cut the end off the blank and tried again with the proper angle on the lathe (the angle on the mill was fine, that was set with a fine-scale protractor) and made a new start. That one came out fine.  Then back to the lathe to cut the hub and part off:
(https://i.postimg.cc/TYhFxkSC/IMG-9681.jpg)
Swarf, clean, repeat... Made up the second one for the other end of the drive shaft:
(https://i.postimg.cc/pTx3tPbF/IMG-9682.jpg)
After parting off, the hubs were chucked in the lathe and the shaft holes drilled through.
Then, on to the big ring gears. Same procedure, new angle and new cutter from the set.
(https://i.postimg.cc/FzHq7GKF/IMG-9683.jpg)
The rotary table is still clamped at the same angle as used on the small gears - but, rather than cutting along the long axis, the cuts were made along the short axis, giving a complementary angle to the gears.
(https://i.postimg.cc/g2Z7XxGh/IMG-9684.jpg)
Lots more teeth on these...
(https://i.postimg.cc/q7H58p75/IMG-9686.jpg)
Then moved the chuck back to the lathe to bore out the hole for the crankshaft and the counterbore to take the teeth to face dimension.
(https://i.postimg.cc/9MWgn1ZP/IMG-9687.jpg)
Parted off and test fit on the crankshaft:
(https://i.postimg.cc/SsD1F8fB/IMG-9688.jpg)
The ring gear will be attached to the flywheel, the pinion gear and its shaft get held by a bearing that will be part of the gear case attached to the engine bed.  Here is where the gear goes when on the rest of the engine:
(https://i.postimg.cc/KjjqZz9R/IMG-9689.jpg)
The drive shaft will come of at an angle to the next level up on the engine frames where the lay shaft will be.
So, three gears down, one to go. The second ring gear has the same number of teeth and outer dimensions, but it will have a smaller hole in its hub to match the lay shaft. Will probably make that gear tomorrow.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dave Otto on July 14, 2021, 10:07:28 PM
Nice work on the gears Chris, I will have to try that some day.

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on July 14, 2021, 10:21:29 PM
Pretty slick gear cutting, Chris!  :popcorn:
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 14, 2021, 10:25:16 PM
Thanks guys! Lots of practice has made the gearcutting process a lot faster, the first ones I did years ago took days.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: gary.a.ayres on July 14, 2021, 10:28:17 PM
Haven't been on the forum much for the last few weeks as busy with my own build and a bunch of other stuff, but now scanning back in your thread I can see amazing progress and a fantastic level of detail.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on July 15, 2021, 12:15:25 AM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Brian Rupnow on July 15, 2021, 01:52:48 AM
Chris--I'm not saying much, but I'm setting back in the bush and watching every day. Your work is fabulous!!!---Brian
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 15, 2021, 02:33:23 AM
Chris--I'm not saying much, but I'm setting back in the bush and watching every day. Your work is fabulous!!!---Brian
Thought I spotted you back there sharing peanuts with the squirrels!  Watch out for the skunk thats started wandering through...
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 15, 2021, 02:34:00 AM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
:drinking-41:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 15, 2021, 04:21:13 PM
This morning I cut the second large bevel gear, completing the set. With matching gears top and bottom, the lay shaft will rotate at the same speed and in sync with the crankshaft. A nice bit of jewelry that will be unseen under the gear case covers!

(https://i.postimg.cc/PrSpcnFV/IMG-9690.jpg)
Then I got started on putting in the taper pins on the crank pins. The crank pins had been loctited in place yesterday, and the taper pins will give it that extra bit of strength in the joint. The original used tapered keys for the same function. I have bags of 4/0 taper pins in 1/2" and 1" lengths, plus a 4/0 taper reamer. To reduce the amount of reaming needed on the 1" deep holes, I measured every 1/4" on a pin, and worked out a series of drill steps to match, so that all I need to ream off are the corners of the steps on the inside of the holes. On brass, I'd just drill the small hole but on steel this saves a lot of time.
(https://i.postimg.cc/JztDCYfr/IMG-9691.jpg)
with the reamer run through till the steps are gone, and the oil washed out, the first pin is ready to install.
(https://i.postimg.cc/9f7DrRXs/IMG-9692.jpg)
Here it is after tapping into place, I had put in a drop of loctite just for good measure, though the fit is so tight it probably all squeezed out again.
(https://i.postimg.cc/fRF3zjsx/IMG-9696.jpg)
and after sawing off the ends and filing off
(https://i.postimg.cc/qRHznJzq/IMG-9697.jpg)
Thats not going anywhere!  So far I have both end crank pins pinned, next up will do the four joints on the center crank - two on the crankshaft ends of the webs and two on the crank pin ends. The joints for the end webs have to wait till the flywheels/gear are installed - positioning the assembly for drilling those will take some supports off the end of the mill table!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on July 16, 2021, 12:17:25 AM
There is no [modern] engineering joint process that exceeds the accuracy of Tapered Pins  :hammerbash: 

Derek   :cheers:

[mechanical computers used in early Naval Ordinance - Gun Plotting quipment had 100's of minature pinned geared joints [with zero backlash] & all in a box the size of a coffin]
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 16, 2021, 02:27:40 AM
There is no [modern] engineering joint process that exceeds the accuracy of Tapered Pins  :hammerbash: 

Derek   :cheers:

[mechanical computers used in early Naval Ordinance - Gun Plotting quipment had 100's of minature pinned geared joints [with zero backlash] & all in a box the size of a coffin]


They must have some tight control on grinding them, they are amazingly consistent.
I have a couple of WW-II aircraft sextants from bombers, the gears in them are truly amazing, so much packed in a tiny space, as you say without backlash. A long way from the early wood and metal framed sextants in the collection, though they did the job too.


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 16, 2021, 02:30:02 AM
Oh, and this afternoon I got the joints on the center crank pinned, and started figuring out how to hold the flywheel castings to mill the hubs. Big darn wheels!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on July 16, 2021, 08:56:03 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

I'm partial to using a plywood faceplate for big flywheels or gears , held in the lathe's 4 jaw chuck. Basically two discs of plywood glued up, the back one small enough to mount in the 4 jaw and the other big enough to fit the item to be screwed to it. If you have the lathe swing, it's cheap and cheerful but it works - IF you don't take massive cuts.  :cheers:

(also spreads the lovely cast iron dust extra far, so a big bonus for black finger club members)  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 16, 2021, 09:57:50 PM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

I'm partial to using a plywood faceplate for big flywheels or gears , held in the lathe's 4 jaw chuck. Basically two discs of plywood glued up, the back one small enough to mount in the 4 jaw and the other big enough to fit the item to be screwed to it. If you have the lathe swing, it's cheap and cheerful but it works - IF you don't take massive cuts.  :cheers:

(also spreads the lovely cast iron dust extra far, so a big bonus for black finger club members)  :Lol:
I've used the plywood discs for some big flywheels, usually bolt them to the faceplate. The headstock thread on the Sherline is the same as some woodworking lathes, and the faceplates made for those can be easily adapted to the Sherline, just needed to trim the thickness around the threaded section. Nice thick steel faceplates a lot cheaper than the thin aluminum ones that come with the lathe.
See next post for how I am holding things!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on July 16, 2021, 10:16:54 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 16, 2021, 10:25:10 PM
So, in thinking, plotting, planning, mind-changing, and all round procrastinating on the flywheels, I finally settled on how things would be done and how it would be held. Many ways to do it, this one seems to be working out so far. The desire was to use a taper lock for the hubs, but the hubs are fairly small diameter and there is not much width around them available, so it wound up being a slightly modified version of the usual lock design. Putting the taper into the hubs directly is not practical on my machines, since the lathe won't swing this large a piece (raw casting is 8" diameter, finished flywheel is 7.5" diameter) so that I can use the normal compound rest. What I wound up doing is not ideal, but works fine for a low-rpm engine like this one. I replaced the crankshaft on the lathe between centers and turned a shallow taper into the flywheel bosses, narrow end out to the outsides so the locks could be slipped on from the ends.
(https://i.postimg.cc/L4gDw0x2/IMG-9705.jpg)
Then, with the compound rest still locked into its angle (3 degrees, any steeper and it would not take advantage of the full width) I also turned a mandrel that will stay locked into the four-jaw for the duration of these steps.
(https://i.postimg.cc/bNXghH5b/IMG-9706.jpg)
Both those operations were on the outside of the parts, the compound rest works with the cutter inverted and on the back of the cross slide. For the next steps, cutting the internal tapers on the locks, I switched to a boring tool held in a little adapter I made several years ago that holds the tool at the right hieght for cutting internally on the normal front side. The holes were first bored straight through to the size matching the small end of the taper. Then, cut on the taper angle to widen the outer end far enough to match the lengths of the tapers made on the crankshaft and the mandrel. The mandrel was used to check the size of the hole.

(https://i.postimg.cc/qRzwkm0c/IMG-9708.jpg)
The turned the outside of the locks (making two of these, one for each flywheel) down to the size that I am going to bore in the flywheels. This is a straight parallel cut.
(https://i.postimg.cc/15pH5Vxd/IMG-9709.jpg)
After parting off, here is the taper lock sitting on the mandrel - perfect fit, angles match.
(https://i.postimg.cc/P5TMLfT5/IMG-9710.jpg)
Now on to the first flywheel. The castings (from Martin Models) are bronze, and they are quite even, just a little of the usual offset between the sides, and the surfaces are pretty good for castings. I found a spot where it would sit level on the mill table, with blocks under each end to let me bore through without hitting the table. After clamping down with four step clamps, the end of the hub on that side was milled off flat - it had an '8' cast into it from the foundry.

(https://i.postimg.cc/yNfnCqqY/IMG-9698.jpg)
 I used the co-ax indicator to center the hub under the mill head, and locked down the mill table.

(https://i.postimg.cc/cH2m6Q4p/IMG-9699.jpg)
I checked both the edge of the hub and the edge of the rim, they matched within the size of the casting bumps. Next step was to drill a starter hole and begin boring out the center...
(https://i.postimg.cc/3NGZGdkd/IMG-9704.jpg)
A 'boring' while later, the hole was sized to be a snug fit on the taper lock.

(https://i.postimg.cc/GmKxv0mJ/IMG-9711.jpg)
Then turned the headstock on the lathe 90 degrees and chucked up the flywheel - checked the tightness on the hub several times, and hand-spun the wheel to make sure it was all solid. All good, and running pretty true, so I started some light cuts to take off the uneven-ness.
(https://i.postimg.cc/q7ZcZ8nN/IMG-9714.jpg)
Both sides and the hub look to be pretty close, so that is good. Really glad I went for the bronze casting - no hard spots on the surface to deal with and no black powder like with cast iron!  The sprue location took a few extra passes.
(https://i.postimg.cc/QMMkb6BL/IMG-9715.jpg)
Once the high spots were off I could up the rpm a little more as it got into full cuts. Going to take a while to get it down to size - need to take the OD from 8" to 7.5", and the rim width from 7/8" down closer to 1/2". This casting was the closest I could find to the size needed for this engine.
(https://i.postimg.cc/rm0G6KCQ/IMG-9716.jpg)
As you can see in that picture, the shop elves loved how soft the bronze wool coming off the cuts was, and decided to take a bath in it...
(https://i.postimg.cc/mDvYTBmR/IMG-9717.jpg)
Cleanup will be easy, the shavings collect in a mat that can be picked up in one big carpet.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RReid on July 17, 2021, 12:32:47 AM
Being able to turn the headstock like that is a neat trick!  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 17, 2021, 02:01:50 AM
Being able to turn the headstock like that is a neat trick!  :ThumbsUp:
Yeah, both the lathe and the mill allow it, only way to handle a part this big. I'm having to do the turning in sessions, running the motor slow with a load means it gets hot.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on July 17, 2021, 02:52:15 AM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Where's that bug zapper circuit, to apply to each side of that bronze wool with Bob in the middle?  :LittleDevil:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 17, 2021, 02:58:41 AM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Where's that bug zapper circuit, to apply to each side of that bronze wool with Bob in the middle?  :LittleDevil:


Evil!


Funny, but evil!   :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: EricB on July 17, 2021, 04:42:41 AM
Being able to turn the headstock like that is a neat trick!  :ThumbsUp:
Yeah, both the lathe and the mill allow it, only way to handle a part this big. I'm having to do the turning in sessions, running the motor slow with a load means it gets hot.

Couldn't you move the belt to the slower pulley?

Great job so far!

Eric
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Admiral_dk on July 17, 2021, 12:35:43 PM
Quote
and all round procrastinating

I'm sorry but I can not get my head around that you have this sentence in your vocabulary Chris - given your build record here ....  :???:

Per
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 17, 2021, 01:28:04 PM
Being able to turn the headstock like that is a neat trick!  :ThumbsUp:
Yeah, both the lathe and the mill allow it, only way to handle a part this big. I'm having to do the turning in sessions, running the motor slow with a load means it gets hot.

Couldn't you move the belt to the slower pulley?

Great job so far!

Eric
Only two positions, its normally on the faster one, and I never think about changing it since the parts are normally all small. Doh!


Will try that this morning!!!!!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 17, 2021, 01:29:18 PM
Quote
and all round procrastinating

I'm sorry but I can not get my head around that you have this sentence in your vocabulary Chris - given your build record here ....  :???:

Per


 :Lol:   well, I delayed by making another part first! 
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 17, 2021, 04:13:07 PM
Eric - that worked great, got the motor into a better power band, keeps it cooler a lot longer, and gives more cutting power. Thanks for the reminder, I needed to move the trees to see that forest!    :cheers: :cheers:

Getting more done on the flywheel, about halfway to final diameter on the first one.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Dw4XNP30/IMG-9718.jpg)
And the shop elves were looking at the bronze wool some more. They have always been fans of Wile E. Coyote, and now they are off at the library looking up how to build a 'Wool' E. Mammoth!!!
(https://i.postimg.cc/yNqZC37P/IMG-9719.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 17, 2021, 06:58:39 PM
Uh oh, the Wool E. Mammoth is awake!
(https://i.postimg.cc/SRsK0k3q/IMG-9720.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Don1966 on July 17, 2021, 07:52:29 PM
Lots of good turning and fab Dog, but hey you disappoint me Dog with a store bought flywheel. I was eager to see you fab one up and learn from it. All on all always excellent work….. :Love:



 :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 17, 2021, 08:02:31 PM
Lots of good turning and fab Dog, but hey you disappoint me Dog with a store bought flywheel. I was eager to see you fab one up and learn from it. All on all always excellent work….. :Love:



 :drinking-41:
Don
I really thought about piecing one up, seen others do it on this forum, one this size would need a lot of bar stock and even more work than turning this one down. Maybe next time!  On my MEM Corliss I pieced them up, using pipe sections for the rims - never tried a full wagon-wheel-style buildup of one. Yet.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on July 17, 2021, 09:26:27 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Nice to see the mammoth doing a cameo appearance!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 18, 2021, 01:45:17 PM
And finishing up the first flywheel, with the rim down to diameter the near side was trimmed off, flattening the side shapes and taking it to width
(https://i.postimg.cc/wjBsRW84/IMG-9721.jpg)
then switched to a boring bar to reach the back side too
(https://i.postimg.cc/25bb2V54/IMG-9722.jpg)
That completes the lathe work for the first flywheel - it still needs sanding/filing on the spokes. The swarf monster has grown, the wheel casting has gone from 7.2 pounds to 4 pounds!  Next step, pick up the monster and transfer him to a bag for disposal... Not sure if the local Animal Control will take him.

(https://i.postimg.cc/HszyLqK7/IMG-9723.jpg)
So, here is the first flywheel set in place on the crankshaft:
(https://i.postimg.cc/wBCtPgtn/IMG-9724.jpg)
and a closeup of where the lay shaft drive gear will sit - I need to drill some holes for pins to hold it to the flywheel.
(https://i.postimg.cc/SxtY6WmS/IMG-9727.jpg)
Now? On to flywheel number two. But first, our RC submarine group is meeting out at the pond today. If the rain keeps up, we'll be sitting under the picnic pavillion yakking rather than letting the submarines get wet.   :headscratch:    :thinking:    :insane:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on July 18, 2021, 03:34:42 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Hope the weather is sub-stantially sunny today for RC sub activities.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 18, 2021, 06:01:05 PM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Hope the weather is sub-stantially sunny today for RC sub activities.
The sun sub-stituted for the rain, perfect weather! 4 inches of rain yesterday, more predicted today but it ended at about 8.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: john mills on July 19, 2021, 02:11:07 AM
The flywheel is looking  impressive now.   
The swarf looks like a part catcher to me reminds me of a job i had at one time  we made piston rings and seals we kept a pile of swarf like that  in the cnc lathe with live tooling i run.
to catch the parts as they were completed and parted off   the swarf was soft to catch the part then would be covered
to be protected from the next part.  bronze  white metal and mainly teflon based materials .which were easily
marked and scratched. the machine supplier thought we were strange we were the only customer that did that.
most people want the conveyer to take the swarf out of the machine.
      John
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 19, 2021, 03:06:04 AM
The flywheel is looking  impressive now.   
The swarf looks like a part catcher to me reminds me of a job i had at one time  we made piston rings and seals we kept a pile of swarf like that  in the cnc lathe with live tooling i run.
to catch the parts as they were completed and parted off   the swarf was soft to catch the part then would be covered
to be protected from the next part.  bronze  white metal and mainly teflon based materials .which were easily
marked and scratched. the machine supplier thought we were strange we were the only customer that did that.
most people want the conveyer to take the swarf out of the machine.
      John
Interesting! That pile of bronze is amazingly soft, sounds like a good use for it.


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 19, 2021, 03:49:06 PM
Got a start on the second flywheel - this one is going much faster, in part to changing the belt to a slower range for more power and less motor overheating, and part to zip-tying some foam and wood panels on the spokes, which dampens the vibrations down a lot. The part would ring like a bell when struck just sitting there clamped in the chuck, and when cutting it would hit the resonance frequency and force me to slow the cut a lot. With the damping effect the cutting is going a lot faster and is leaving a smoother finish. If this was a freelance design I'd stop here on the flywheel, but for scale accuracy it still needs to come down more in both directions, should have it finished up this afternoon or evening.

(https://i.postimg.cc/R0WPjXH6/IMG-9729.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 19, 2021, 03:53:43 PM
And save the date - looks like the Living History Days event up at the Maine logging museum is tentatively scheduled for October 2nd and 3rd. This is their biggest event for the year, lots of things going on both days. I am planning on going again this year, great fun volunteering on the Lombard Crew to run the steam and two gas powered machines. This fall they are starting work on a new road and display pavillion for the Lombards, better running road plus it gets them out of the parking areas.

This Saturday, July 24, is their Heavy Metal event, also a great time.

If you are near Maine, well worth the trip up!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on July 19, 2021, 05:45:59 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 19, 2021, 11:56:15 PM
Just finished up the lathe work on the second flywheel. The foam/wood additions really made a huge difference, got rid of the bell ringing vibrations and made for much faster and smoother cuts.
(https://i.postimg.cc/6pj3yChw/IMG-9730.jpg)
and here they are test fit on the crankshaft:
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZqWq30fN/IMG-9732.jpg)
All clears well, really changes the look. Still to do on the flywheels, sand/file the spokes, attach the lay shaft drive gear to the HP side flywheel, and attach them to the crankshaft. Thinking that I would make a small wedge key to keep the tapers pushed into place. Then I can get the bearing halves pinned to the beds and caps, and start lapping the bearings in. Given how a single flywheel made the lathe turn for 30 or 40 seconds after turning off the power, two flywheels in place should make spinning things to lap the bearings very easy - as well as giving an easy way to grab on to turn them. The crank ends need to be pinned into place too. Since I am going to make the drive gear cover in top/bottom halves, that can be done later, just before bolting the bearing caps down for good. Oh, and oil holes in the bearings. Lets see, must be something else.... Oh yeah! Need to paint the flywheels!  Lots to keep track of at this stage. Whoops - need to cut the main shaft where it goes through the center web too - that will make the center con rod work a WHOLE lot better!  Must be more too...   :stickpoke:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: MJM460 on July 20, 2021, 12:06:05 AM
Wow! That really changes the appearance.  Great looking flywheels.  Pity they have to be painted over a point of history.

MJM460

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 20, 2021, 12:17:35 AM
Wow! That really changes the appearance.  Great looking flywheels.  Pity they have to be painted over a point of history.

MJM460
I'll leave it to George to make the mini all-polished-brass version!  That would really be something to see!  I'm going for the look of the real one so the iron-paint is necessary, if a little dull. Too bad they didn't pick out the frames and cylinders in red and green, something like that. The Allis engine in Boston is much more colorful looking, even with just the white decks with red edges.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on July 20, 2021, 01:19:05 AM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Hi Chris, at final assembly are the spokes of the two flywheels aligned to each others' spokes or are they set at 30 degrees or some other angle apart? And are the spokes "timed" in line with the crank throws?  Just was thinking about it.  :thinking:  :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 20, 2021, 01:25:22 AM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Hi Chris, at final assembly are the spokes of the two flywheels aligned to each others' spokes or are they set at 30 degrees or some other angle apart? And are the spokes "timed" in line with the crank throws?  Just was thinking about it.  :thinking: :cheers:
They are aligned with each other. On the original, they were constructed in two halves and joined with splines on the rim and bolts at the hub. There were keyways in one side of the hub and in a line on the crankshaft, so they would always go on aligned. I was wondering the same thing when I first put the two flywheels on for the picture, and went back to look at the plans and photos! Dont know if this was an intentional thing for some resonance reason, or just an artifact of the casting/machining process. The keyways are aligned with the pin end of the center web, 120 degrees from the end cranks which are evenly spaced around the circle. The mass is evenly distributed around the flywheels, and the cranks do not have any counterweights.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RReid on July 20, 2021, 02:44:12 AM
Those look absolutely massive when compared to the person sized steps! Gives a great sense of scale to the whole thing.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on July 20, 2021, 03:00:12 AM
They are sure a sizable flywheel in scale

I remember as an apprentice 55+ years ago [Saturday overtime  :Love:-  maintenance day] checking on the drip feed lubrication to the outboard bush bearings to two [2] large, low speed Broom & Wade air compressor, with each having a single flywheel [about 8' diameter - quite a bit taller :Lol: than me] and each wheel had a series of 1/2" drillings around the outer edge near the major OD.......these were balance drillings performed during the assembly of the compressor [in London UK in the 1920's?]

What is the actual weight of each of your scale flywheels?........ :shrug: might be interesting to spin each wheel [individually]  in the machines bushes [dummy shaft] with a variable speed source [drill?] and bring the wheels up to the nominal 100?? RPM & see what happens

Derek

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 20, 2021, 03:24:30 AM
They are sure a sizable flywheel in scale

I remember as an apprentice 55+ years ago [Saturday overtime  :Love: -  maintenance day] checking on the drip feed lubrication to the outboard bush bearings to two [2] large, low speed Broom & Wade air compressor, with each having a single flywheel [about 8' diameter - quite a bit taller :Lol: than me] and each wheel had a series of 1/2" drillings around the outer edge near the major OD.......these were balance drillings performed during the assembly of the compressor [in London UK in the 1920's?]

What is the actual weight of each of your scale flywheels?........ :shrug: might be interesting to spin each wheel [individually]  in the machines bushes with a variable speed source [drill?] and bring the wheels up to the nominal 100?? RPM & see what happens

Derek


Hi Derek,


Each flywheel is 4 pounds, 7.5 inch diameter. Real engine has two 20 foot diameter by 16 inch wide flywheels! Quite a bit of weight total!  Fortunately they won't get anywhere near that fast, these pump engines ran at 12 to 20 rpm. The pistons are 1, 2, and 3 inch diameter, roughly (have to look up the actual sizes) with a little over a 2 inch stroke. Real LP cylinder is 96 inch. Given proper valving, should be able to run it nice and slow, like my MEM Corliss twin model. With no balance weights on the cranks, they were definitely not meant for high speed. I can't imagine the pressures it would have made at high speed!


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on July 20, 2021, 04:49:06 AM
oops :embarassed:............sorry I had the speed out x 10 fold  :Doh:.......  no real need for HS balance ............ :embarassed: Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 20, 2021, 04:52:39 AM
oops :embarassed: ............sorry I had the speed out x 10 fold  :Doh: .......  no real need for HS balance ............ :embarassed: Derek
As long as we can keep the shop elves off the throttle...   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 20, 2021, 09:08:17 PM
Lots of little bits done today. The lay shaft gear was drilled/tapped to screw it to the flywheel hub, and also got some pins made to keep the bearing halves from spinning. I drilled/tapped the caps for 2-56 brass screws, which were run in and clipped off. Matching holes in the top bearing halves were drilled(drilled at same time, then the bearings counterbored to the OD of the screws).
(https://i.postimg.cc/k459LvYz/IMG-9735.jpg)
Then did the same thing for the lower halves, but since the base wont fit under the mill (by a long ways!) I first drilled 2-56 tap holes in the lower bearing halves. Then clamped them in place as shown in the next picture - the top halves are in place, and the caps run in but offset by one bolt hole to expose the hole in the bearing. There is a ruler laid between the bearing halves so as the nuts were snugged up it held the bearing down and level. The flange on the end of the bearing kept it aligned side to side. Then used the tap drill held in a hand power drill to drill the matching hole into the base. That was then tapped, and the hole in the bearing counterdrilled to fit over the screw.
(https://i.postimg.cc/q7w4m5w2/IMG-9736.jpg)
Also drilled/tapped for screws through the flanges on the taper locks to hold them firmly in the flywheel hubs, and milled some slots in the crankshaft next to the flywheels to wedge the flywheels onto the tapers with. Have not made the wedges yet, that is next. Also also drilled/reamed the end cranks/crankshaft for thier taper pins, which will be assembled later after the rest of the bits are on the crankshaft. Whole lotta details to keep track of so I dont miss something!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on July 20, 2021, 09:21:15 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 21, 2021, 02:51:41 PM
The crankshaft bearings are ready for lapping. The shaft spins okay but is a little tight, some Timesavers powder and oil should free it up.
(https://i.postimg.cc/dtHBCzfg/IMG-9738.jpg)
Also got a start on the lay shaft drive gearbox. Started with two pieces of 1/2" thick bar stock, milled a recess down the sides and drilled to bolt them together. The recesses will get joined up on the rotary table to make the case round. There will be a boss on the top cover to take the bearing for the driven shaft that goes up to the lay shaft.
(https://i.postimg.cc/hPPsfS29/IMG-9737.jpg)
The open side of the box goes over the bevel gear and next to the flywheel.



Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: ddmckee54 on July 21, 2021, 03:20:01 PM
Any idea how many pounds of brass and bronze swarf you and the elves have generated so far on this project?
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dave Otto on July 21, 2021, 03:21:01 PM
Pretty impressive looking with the flywheels in place!

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 21, 2021, 03:59:20 PM
Any idea how many pounds of brass and bronze swarf you and the elves have generated so far on this project?
Flywheels shed 3.2 pounds of bronze each, engine beds and frames maybe One or two total, the cutouts on the beds are in the offcut bin for future use. The pumps maybe another pound. Still a fraction of the total model, its going to be a two person mover.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 21, 2021, 04:00:06 PM
Pretty impressive looking with the flywheels in place!

Dave
Thanks Dave, its nice to see moving parts finally!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Roger B on July 21, 2021, 05:49:59 PM
That's some fine work on those flywheels  :praise2:  :praise2:  :wine1:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on July 21, 2021, 06:17:10 PM
It does look great with the flywheels!  Starting to look like a real engine now :)   :popcorn:

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 21, 2021, 09:46:34 PM
Thanks guys!!

More work on the gear case this afternoon, set it up on the rotary table on the mill to shape the outside and drill the holes to match the guide made when I drilled the holes in the engine bed rail. Lots of nibbling away - the shop goat is stuffed!   :Lol:
(https://i.postimg.cc/bNygsQzC/IMG-9740.jpg)
I couldn't go all the way through all the way around due to the jaws of the chuck, so then flipped the part over and held from the inside of the case in the 3-jaw to trim the rest of the outside flanges.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Gm9jjdTv/IMG-9741.jpg)
The angled block at the top is where the shaft and bearing for the drive shaft will come out. I am going to leave the rest of the shaping of that till later - I know the angle of the shaft from the plans (23.7 degrees) but I want to wait till the lay shaft and the brackets up at that level are made to check and see how close it comes, and adjust the angle if needed.
(https://i.postimg.cc/hP2rxfvS/IMG-9742.jpg)
So in the meantime I'll do some sanding on the gear case and get it painted, and install the lower half on the engine bed. The top half can be removed with two screws for the rest of the work, even after the crankshaft is installed. On the original engine this case was made in one piece without the two bolt flanges, I think this is a reasonable change to avoid having to dismantle the upper half of the model to get at the case. This morning I did some filing and sanding on the flywheel spokes to smooth out the casting parting line.

Close to finishing up the crankshaft assembly - left to do:  install the gear case bottom half, lap the bearings, paint the flywheels, cut the shaft where it crosses the center crank webs, install the end cranks, install the crankshaft bearing caps. Long list but most are quick items. I have the bar stock for the catwalk brackets stress relieved (session in the oven a few days ago on a cool evening so it didn't heat up the house too much on hot days) and ready to go.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on July 22, 2021, 12:07:49 AM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 22, 2021, 12:14:59 AM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
:cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 22, 2021, 03:04:47 PM
The gear case was sanded and painted, and got it installed this morning. I REALLY need to make that smaller ratchet - getting the screws in on the lower part of the case was tough, not much finger room there. I should have made and installed this when I did the catwalk brackets!  Anyway, here is the lower case in place
(https://i.postimg.cc/5NdPVnND/IMG-9743.jpg)

and the upper case too. As noted yesterday I am going to wait to drill/install the bearing for the drive shaft in the box sticking up in the upper cover until the engine frames and lay shaft are in place, since any slight variation in that angle would bind things up - better to wait and check the actual dimensions/angle before drilling that hole rather than depend on the plans, lots of parts in between and lots of tolerances that could stack up.
(https://i.postimg.cc/CLGcLkR5/IMG-9744.jpg)

After lunch I think I'll get the crankshaft bearings lapped in...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: mklotz on July 22, 2021, 06:19:23 PM
...I REALLY need to make that smaller ratchet - getting the screws in on the lower part of the case was tough, not much finger room there. ...

I've often wondered why those import 4mm sets didn't include a ratchet for jobs like you're encountering.

I wouldn't mind having one but don't feel like making it from scratch as you intend to do.  I have a wrench similar to this one...

 https://www.amazon.com/MulWark-Profile-Ratchet-Quarters-Screwdriver/dp/B07D4DZB1T/ref=sr_1_13?crid=1SY57AG4V54XD&dchild=1&keywords=mini+ratchet+wrench+set&qid=1626972790&sprefix=mini+ratchet+wr%2Caps%2C238&sr=8-13

I would take a bit of 1/4" brass hex, drill it out to 4mm, and use the vise to press in a T25 Torx bit to start "hexifying" the hole which would then be filed to shape.  A thin sheet metal cover on one end to keep the bits from sliding through and then size this to the thickness of the hex socket in the wrench.

If I cut down the shafts on the 4mm bits, I think I could get this arrangement into a 5/8" slot.

Just brainstorming right now.  I'm waiting to see what you devise and/or the clever Asians introducing one.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: ddmckee54 on July 22, 2021, 06:49:19 PM
Chris:

When I saw your ratchet design it never tripped any alarm bells for me.  However, when I saw Marv's link it reminded me of what I picked up at Lowes a couple of years ago.  https://www.lowes.com/pd/Kobalt-35-Piece-Standard-SAE-and-Metric-Polished-Chrome-Mechanics-Tool-Set/3387640?cm_mmc=shp-_-c-_-prd-_-tol-_-google-_-pla-_-218-_-mechanicstools-_-3387640-_-0&placeholder=null&ds_rl=1286981&gclid=CjwKCAjwruSHBhAtEiwA_qCppjYYZ4et__dH-wQO6l-vncrVx6KPnltpfuDGHhTVbF9lvAw-jo3kUxoC9i4QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds (https://www.lowes.com/pd/Kobalt-35-Piece-Standard-SAE-and-Metric-Polished-Chrome-Mechanics-Tool-Set/3387640?cm_mmc=shp-_-c-_-prd-_-tol-_-google-_-pla-_-218-_-mechanicstools-_-3387640-_-0&placeholder=null&ds_rl=1286981&gclid=CjwKCAjwruSHBhAtEiwA_qCppjYYZ4et__dH-wQO6l-vncrVx6KPnltpfuDGHhTVbF9lvAw-jo3kUxoC9i4QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds) (MAN they pack a lot of junk into that link!)

At $20 you're not out much if it doesn't work for the Holly.  I don't use mine a lot, but when I need to get to a screw in a confined space it's the goto.  (It's not worth much on a rusted screw in a bad spot, but then what is?)

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 22, 2021, 06:52:59 PM
...I REALLY need to make that smaller ratchet - getting the screws in on the lower part of the case was tough, not much finger room there. ...

I've often wondered why those import 4mm sets didn't include a ratchet for jobs like you're encountering.

I wouldn't mind having one but don't feel like making it from scratch as you intend to do.  I have a wrench similar to this one...

 https://www.amazon.com/MulWark-Profile-Ratchet-Quarters-Screwdriver/dp/B07D4DZB1T/ref=sr_1_13?crid=1SY57AG4V54XD&dchild=1&keywords=mini+ratchet+wrench+set&qid=1626972790&sprefix=mini+ratchet+wr%2Caps%2C238&sr=8-13 (https://www.amazon.com/MulWark-Profile-Ratchet-Quarters-Screwdriver/dp/B07D4DZB1T/ref=sr_1_13?crid=1SY57AG4V54XD&dchild=1&keywords=mini+ratchet+wrench+set&qid=1626972790&sprefix=mini+ratchet+wr%2Caps%2C238&sr=8-13)

I would take a bit of 1/4" brass hex, drill it out to 4mm, and use the vise to press in a T25 Torx bit to start "hexifying" the hole which would then be filed to shape.  A thin sheet metal cover on one end to keep the bits from sliding through and then size this to the thickness of the hex socket in the wrench.

If I cut down the shafts on the 4mm bits, I think I could get this arrangement into a 5/8" slot.

Just brainstorming right now.  I'm waiting to see what you devise and/or the clever Asians introducing one.
Hi Marv,
That style ratchet is close, but the 1/4" bits make it a little too big - I also wish Wiha made a mini one. They do have a ratchet, but its bulky - their main market is computer techs, that sort of thing, so its fine for that.
Interesting idea to 'forge' out the center. I did do a custom cutter sort of like a keyway cutter for the Marion engines (with help from this forum) that worked well. A similar cutter for the 4mm hex seems do-able. Hmmmm....  I was planning to take a spare extension rod from their set and cut it off and insert it into the gear. Lots of ways to peal that feline, I guess! 

I'm almost at a good breaking point on this build to spin off to the side and make the ratchet handle - will post the results and plans for everyone here. The plans I've drawn up get it down to a .45" wide by .225" thick body, could go narrower with exposing the gear on the sides like the one you linked to.
I have not gotten to lapping the crank bearings this afternoon, had to do some reloading for a shoot tonight, and ran into an issue with the press - have to replace the indexing pawl, which is worn out on the end. Spent a fair bit of time diagnosing that, by the time all that is done it will be time to head out. More tomorrow!
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 22, 2021, 06:55:52 PM
Chris:

When I saw your ratchet design it never tripped any alarm bells for me.  However, when I saw Marv's link it reminded me of what I picked up at Lowes a couple of years ago.  https://www.lowes.com/pd/Kobalt-35-Piece-Standard-SAE-and-Metric-Polished-Chrome-Mechanics-Tool-Set/3387640?cm_mmc=shp-_-c-_-prd-_-tol-_-google-_-pla-_-218-_-mechanicstools-_-3387640-_-0&placeholder=null&ds_rl=1286981&gclid=CjwKCAjwruSHBhAtEiwA_qCppjYYZ4et__dH-wQO6l-vncrVx6KPnltpfuDGHhTVbF9lvAw-jo3kUxoC9i4QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds (https://www.lowes.com/pd/Kobalt-35-Piece-Standard-SAE-and-Metric-Polished-Chrome-Mechanics-Tool-Set/3387640?cm_mmc=shp-_-c-_-prd-_-tol-_-google-_-pla-_-218-_-mechanicstools-_-3387640-_-0&placeholder=null&ds_rl=1286981&gclid=CjwKCAjwruSHBhAtEiwA_qCppjYYZ4et__dH-wQO6l-vncrVx6KPnltpfuDGHhTVbF9lvAw-jo3kUxoC9i4QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds) (MAN they pack a lot of junk into that link!)

At $20 you're not out much if it doesn't work for the Holly.  I don't use mine a lot, but when I need to get to a screw in a confined space it's the goto.  (It's not worth much on a rusted screw in a bad spot, but then what is?)

Don
Hi Don,
That type of set is something I already have, its too large to get into these spaces. The Wiha bits are .157" (4mm) across the flats vs .25" on the normal sets, and the ratchet handle end on those is quite large compared to what I need.  The one I've designed is about half the size - will see how it holds up, should be a fun experiment at least!
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: ddmckee54 on July 22, 2021, 07:32:44 PM
When you make the ratchet, be sure you chrome plate it and engrave the handle with the "Snap-On" logo.  It'll make the elves feel important 'cause you only get the best for them.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 22, 2021, 07:54:16 PM
When you make the ratchet, be sure you chrome plate it and engrave the handle with the "Snap-On" logo.  It'll make the elves feel important 'cause you only get the best for them.
:ROFL:
The mini combination wrenches I have (1/8", etc) are snap-on. Maybe for this one I'lll engrave it Snap-Off.   :LittleDevil:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: ddmckee54 on July 22, 2021, 08:36:48 PM
Just so long as they don't take the Snap-Off as literal instructions.  It's bad enough having them tighten the screws in those locations to 1/4 turn before it breaks, let alone trying to extract a busted screw from there.  Might just have a wildcat strike on your hands if that happens.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on July 22, 2021, 09:37:10 PM
You could stamp it "PROTO" similar to the alternate well known tool brand to Scrap All tools. After all, it IS a proto, being the first one......  :Lol:   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: samc88 on July 23, 2021, 07:59:32 AM
Nice work on the flywheels, always amazes me at how you can make such large pieces on such small equipment. Nice feature being able to rotate the headstock
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 23, 2021, 01:49:29 PM
Nice work on the flywheels, always amazes me at how you can make such large pieces on such small equipment. Nice feature being able to rotate the headstock
Thanks! That headstock feature has come in handy on a number of projects. At least for the ratchet handle project the parts will be smaller than the machines for once!

After the conversations yesterday and Marvs suggestion on the tool holder piece, the shop elves and I got to doing some brainstorming over thimble-steins of Elfenstiener beer for some improvements to my initial SnapToff ratchet design. Looks like it can be smaller and simpler, getting that drawn up now...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on July 23, 2021, 08:23:14 PM
How many times during the ratchet brainstorming session did the shop elves suggest breaking away for another Mann truck run for more Elfensteiner stubbies? (or did they stock up beforehand?)  :Lol:   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 23, 2021, 09:08:27 PM
How many times during the ratchet brainstorming session did the shop elves suggest breaking away for another Mann truck run for more Elfensteiner stubbies? (or did they stock up beforehand?)  :Lol:   :cheers:
They had a full truck full when we started. They are off again refilling it now!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 23, 2021, 09:14:38 PM
Today got the crankshaft bearings lapped in, started with the coarse grade of Timesavers powder and oil and worked down to the fine grades. Then took the plunge and cut the center section of the main shaft away from the webs - all good fortunately! Still a nervous cut. I sawed away the bulk, then used the mill to trim the cut ends back flush with the webs.

(https://i.postimg.cc/mr4vbXPh/IMG-9755.jpg)

Here it is on the bearings

(https://i.postimg.cc/c4pqz4ZR/IMG-9756.jpg)

Right now am getting the flywheels painted, here is one done, other one is in process. I used the mandrel with the taper hub as a stand to keep it off the paint table.

(https://i.postimg.cc/13Dx1h5L/IMG-9757.jpg)

Tomorrow the paint will be cured up enough to assemble the flywheels on to the crankshaft and attach the end cranks too.

So, that left me with time for the ratchet redraw in Fusion - am going to start a new thread for that build - should be a fairly quick one assuming it works as planned.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 23, 2021, 11:13:04 PM
No surprise, I couldn't wait till tomorrow to get the flywheels and crankshaft assembled and on the engine:
(https://i.postimg.cc/NGpYMctT/IMG-9759.jpg)
A quick video proving that yup, they do go round and round!
S8SbWS0dmHI
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Don1966 on July 23, 2021, 11:16:22 PM
Awesome …….. :Love:


 :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on July 23, 2021, 11:17:30 PM
The flywheels really look great after painting and all mounted up!  Well done, Chris!
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on July 24, 2021, 12:30:14 AM
Looks superb Chris!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 25, 2021, 04:43:56 PM
Thanks guys!   The ratchet handle build (on another thread) is complete, so I can get back to the Holly model. Next steps are either to make the catwalk brackets and floor, or move on to the engine frames. Either way will work, but in looking at things it seems like skipping the catwalk for now may be the better choice, it will make getting at the engine beds harder if the catwalk is in place. It can be added later no problem, all the bolt holes for the brackets are on the vertical faces around the engine beds so easy to get at. That means some time spent in Fusion 360 to get the engine frame drawings generated from the 3D model (3D model is all complete, but I am generating the plan sheets from it as I go). Then I need to figure out how I will fabricate the engine frames, they are a complex set of beams and braces, including the crosshead guides. Here are some screen grab from the CAD model:
First the overall engine, showing how the catwalks sit around the engine:
(https://i.postimg.cc/zfjwmw2Y/Full-Engine-View.jpg)
And a shot of just the frames:
(https://i.postimg.cc/fbZ7gqKv/Engine-Frames-View.jpg)
The lay shaft shows on this view as well, plus the drive gear case that I already fitted to the crankshaft. There are K-shaped braces between the sets of frames, and each frame pair is connected top and middle, with the crosshead guide running vertically in the center, plus all the little brackets. The original plan was to fabricate the frames from square bar stock. Now I just need to decide the details of how to actually do that for six sets of frames. Going to need some time out on the porch rocker to think about it.... zzzzzzzzZZZZzzzzz....
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steam guy willy on July 25, 2021, 05:01:49 PM
Hi Chris ..love this build.....amazing workmanship and skill...Looks Wonderfull

Willy
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on July 25, 2021, 05:35:03 PM
Wow!  This is like a high-rise engine and you've just finished the main level - now you've got several more stories to go!

It's already impressive now, I can't imagine what it will look like completed!

Amaizing work, Chris!
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 25, 2021, 08:34:14 PM
Thanks guys. Kim, you are right, this is about where a lot of engine builds would be after a short time, been many months so far! Only about another foot of height to go!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 25, 2021, 08:40:24 PM
This afternoon I've been in playing on the computer in the CAD app, and have worked out most of a fixture plate that will let me mill/drill the pieces for the engine frames. Here is what I have so far:
(https://i.postimg.cc/JzfyTpNz/Engine-Frame-Fixture.jpg)
The blocks will hold pieces for shaping and assembly. They will be loctited and bolted to the plate. There are two long plates off the back, one visible at the right side, angled to match the opposite frame side. This will allow the plate to be bolted to the t-slot on the side of the mill table, to stand it up on edge but with the opposite frame level to the mill. Those plates will be removeable to let it sit flat on the table. Still need to draw up the fixtures to make the T-shaped pieces for the cross slide guides. Those will be mortise/tenon'ed into the frame rails. Lots more to figure out before any metal gets cut, like making the pad feet and the other bracketry that hangs off the frame rails.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on July 25, 2021, 11:16:29 PM
Hi Chris, on the left side of the frame in your pic there is a plate shown with 3 holes at top and 3 at the bottom. What was that for on the original engine? I was just thinking that if the casting had much of a cavity in it behind this plate, it would be a structural weak spot. Just curious. That plate and blocks setup will be some involved fixturing!

 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 25, 2021, 11:44:25 PM
Hi Chris, on the left side of the frame in your pic there is a plate shown with 3 holes at top and 3 at the bottom. What was that for on the original engine? I was just thinking that if the casting had much of a cavity in it behind this plate, it would be a structural weak spot. Just curious. That plate and blocks setup will be some involved fixturing!

 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
The engine frames have a bunch of plates like that, for mounting catwalks, the lay shaft brackets, and the K-shaped brackets. The original had the frames hollow, but where the plates stuck out like that the insides were continuous in the hollow box shape, not rising up at the plates so no extra inside corners there. 

This picture shows a bunch of the stuff that hangs off - the smaller blocks sticking out in the middle and top are for the catwalks, the larger round and rectangular-ish ones are for the lay shafts.  I am going to make the frames at first without the extra bumped out plates, and add blocks for those afterwards - that will let me start with 1/2" x 1/2" bar stock like with the lower pump frames.

I was just making some mods to the fixture plate design, putting in some spacer blocks to allow the drill chuck to come in on the side, and changing a little of the layout to make it easier to make. The plate and supports will be aluminum, adding some clamp bars of steel across the blocks. Going to be mortise/tenon joints on the rails, with pins to hold the joints together. Should be a lot of fun - if machining is fun (it is for me!)

 :cheers:
(https://i.postimg.cc/fbZ7gqKv/Engine-Frames-View.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on July 26, 2021, 12:03:38 AM
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 26, 2021, 02:25:49 PM
The logging museum up in Maine had thier Heavy Metal summer event this past weekend - here is a video that Herb at the museum posted. I was not able to make it up there for this event, but I am planning on going in the fall for their two-day event.
ZBnUEsBduLg
As for the Holly build, today am getting more worked out on the frame jig and parts.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 26, 2021, 07:24:34 PM
Got the plans for the engine frame jig finalized and plans generated for it. Now can start cutting stock for the jig as well as for the frame rails. Would have gotten to this point this morning but the power went out for a few hours. So, had to go hold down the rocker on the porch!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dreeves on July 27, 2021, 03:44:20 AM
Great work Chris. I was disappointed you did not make chug noises when turning the flywheel over  :ROFL:

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 27, 2021, 04:08:26 AM
Great work Chris. I was disappointed you did not make chug noises when turning the flywheel over  :ROFL:

Dave
I was too busy grinning!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 27, 2021, 06:29:16 PM
Been doing some stock prep for the engine frames 'kit'. Bunch of rails cut from 1/2" square bar and the blanks for the pad feet at the bottom cut down from some thicker stock.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sxgSQTPV/IMG-9806.jpg)
And before anyone chokes on the amount of brass I go through, this stock was only about $50, for six engine frames.
Milling and drilling for the frame jig starts this afternoon....
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on July 27, 2021, 09:23:10 PM
After brief self-resuscitation,  :Lol: I can only say  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

When I see Chris with those piles of cut solid gold stock, I know there are great parts to be made, coming soon!  :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on July 27, 2021, 11:44:38 PM
Looks so pretty just sitting there!   :popcorn:

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 28, 2021, 03:10:59 PM
To go along with the pile of 'gold', here is some 'silver'   :Lol:
These are the aluminum and steel blocks for the engine frame jig, cut to rough size, ready for cutting in the steps and drilling lots of holes...
(https://i.postimg.cc/YCMb7LSk/IMG-9807.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on July 28, 2021, 10:47:33 PM
Aluminum, silver, it's just 6061 or half a dozen of the other!  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 28, 2021, 11:01:07 PM
Aluminum, silver, it's just 6061 or half a dozen of the other!  :Lol:


 :ROFL:


I got the jig support blocks milled to shape, that went easy. Drilling the holes through them is going slower, having to clear chips and add oil halfway through each hole. Also glued the pattern for the holes to the main plate. Not using it for lining up holes, that will be handwheel measured, but it will let me keep track of which holes are drilled and which is next. Pictures of that tomorrow.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 29, 2021, 04:05:27 PM
This morning got going on the frame fixture parts. Started with the supports that go on top and hold the frame pieces. Six of them are U-shaped to cradle both sides and bottom of the frame rail, six are L-shaped to support bottom and one side. They were milled from some 3/8" aluminum bar. Holes were also drilled/tapped in the supports for 8-32 screws.

(https://i.postimg.cc/MpzxHjJt/IMG-9808.jpg)
Checking the fit, want it to be a snug fit so no movement.
(https://i.postimg.cc/5tRMs7Yk/IMG-9809.jpg)
Then made up the main plate from some 5" wide x 3/8" thick aluminum. I used some glue-stick on the paper pattern, printed at full size, to glue it to the plate. Now, I am just using this as an easy way to see the X/Y coordinates for each hole and keep track of which one I'm going to next - I know from past experience on R&D team for printer development that you cannot trust the layout printed on paper - the printers have paper feed errors (distance and direction) plus the paper changes with humidity quite a bit. I zeroed the handwheels on the mill table at the back left corner of the plate, and worked my way across it drilling the holes for the screws, keeping careful track of where I was and how many cranks till the next hole.
(https://i.postimg.cc/5t0Vqd0C/IMG-9810.jpg)
After lots of careful drilling, and then counter drilling the holes with an end mill (which was not critical for placement, just needed to be close to center of each hole so the screw heads would go in past flush) the supports were screwed on and some of the rail pieces pushed in to check the fit. Worked out perfect, big relief there!

(https://i.postimg.cc/1tV12GDR/IMG-9812.jpg)
I still need to drill the holes in the steel bars (left side of picture) that will be used as clamps on the rails, using hex nuts to squeeze them down. The supports were tapped for the screws, so they will stay tight to the plate whether the nuts are tight or not. Also need to make a bar that bolts to the back, using the unused holes in the plate, to make alignment to the mill table easy  at an angle matching the opposite rail piece. This bar will be drilled for t-nuts/screws to bolt it to the mill table. More on that later...
Here is a picture of the back of the plate, showing how the screws are countersunk in.
(https://i.postimg.cc/pLkvFX2v/IMG-9813.jpg)
So far so good, may be able to start shaping frame rails tomorrow.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: ddmckee54 on July 29, 2021, 04:48:55 PM
Chris:

You've probably already said, but how are the frames parts going to be held together, bolts, solder, elf spit, bubble gum, baling wire?

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 29, 2021, 05:42:52 PM
Chris:

You've probably already said, but how are the frames parts going to be held together, bolts, solder, elf spit, bubble gum, baling wire?

Don
All of the above....   :Lol:   Wait, I thought Loctite was just purified elf spit?! 


The way I did the lower pump frames was with mortise/tenon joints milled in, but that had problems with the square cornered holes. For this set I am trying drilling and inserting brass rods to form the tenons, so I can use round holes throughout. The rods, most likely 1/4" diameter, will be loctited and pinned.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Roger B on July 29, 2021, 06:51:58 PM
I'm still following in the background  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp: So many fine pieces and lots of swarf  :praise2:  :praise2:  :wine1:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on July 29, 2021, 08:56:44 PM
Just remember, if you use baling wire for an assembly, the rusty and kinked used kind is stronger and grips best.............one of these days LocLoose will probably offer it in fluid form for $732.45 a 5 mL bottle.  :Lol:

The jig work looks great Chris!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 29, 2021, 11:57:28 PM
Here is the fixture plate with the angled piece attached, showing how it sits on the mill table and bolts to the t-slot
(https://i.postimg.cc/1tG6D5H9/IMG-9814.jpg)
Easier to see what its doing when its turned around - the side rail that is at the top is now level. If the angle bar is on the other side, the opposite rail will be level. This will be used when drilling the pin holes to fasten the parts, and also for drilling/milling operations to attach all the other little brackets that go on the side rails later. Much more consistant and held more secure than trying to level it in the mill vise.
(https://i.postimg.cc/HkryBt2v/IMG-9816.jpg)
It also works when the fixture is laid down flat on the mill table - the angled bar rests against the side of the mill table, and gets the angle correct horizontally. I did have to temporarily remove the table lock to get it to fit.

(https://i.postimg.cc/vHH96y6s/IMG-9817.jpg)
With the fixture down flat, and a blank for the middle rail clamped in place, the angle can be milled on the end by running the mill table left/right for the cut, and moved in for depth of cut.

(https://i.postimg.cc/BbNKwYkk/IMG-9820.jpg)
And the real test for whether it all works - turned the trimmed end of the middle rail around, and it seats up nice and snug against the side rail.  :whoohoo:
The rails all have a little bit of a radiused corner, so it looks like there is a small gap but there is not. After assembly, the frames will be trimmed down on the wide faces to final thickness, and that radius will go away.

(https://i.postimg.cc/NGxmMFFD/IMG-9821.jpg)
The same sort of operations will be done on the top of the side rails where they meet the upper crossbar, but there the fixture will be set square to the mill table. For drilling the ends of the side rails, the fixture will be stood upright - the mill column does have enough height for that (checked several times! )

Looks like the fixture is going to work out well - very happy with that!   ^-^
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RReid on July 30, 2021, 12:28:44 AM
That fixture looks like a really clever and effective solution to more than one problem. Nice work! :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 30, 2021, 01:07:31 AM
Thanks Ron,  it's the big brother of the one I came up with for the lower frames, those didn't connect at the top/middle like these, so the jig was only for one side for those.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: ddmckee54 on July 30, 2021, 05:18:34 PM
I of course can't speak from personal experience, but I've been told that Bondo and paint covers many sins things.  (You know, Bondo and paint makes me the welder I ain't.)

Since you're painting everything anyway, those small gaps would be a perfect application.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 30, 2021, 07:42:35 PM
I of course can't speak from personal experience, but I've been told that Bondo and paint covers many sins things.  (You know, Bondo and paint makes me the welder I ain't.)

Since you're painting everything anyway, those small gaps would be a perfect application.

Don
In this particular case the gaps will go away once the sides of the frames are milled to thickness - they are only there due to the radius on the bar stock corners. For the models, I typically use a little JB-Kwik epoxy, easier to mix up in very small amounts, but same end effect as Bondo.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 30, 2021, 10:19:18 PM
Here is the radiused corner I was talking about - this is the way the bars came, not something I added. After assembly, the faces on the top and bottom in this picture will be milled down to take the part to the final thickness, and that will get rid of the little gaps that the radius leave when the parts are together. The brass has all been stress relieved (500F in the oven for an hour) so taking a cut down the face won't cause the bars to bend like they would without the relieving.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sxQB9Dmv/IMG-9826.jpg)
So, this afternoon I got some time to start trimming the ends of the middle frame rails. First trimmed one end just enough to get past the rough cut end, then moved to the other end of the bars and trimmed them to length. The first one took longer, I checked the fit several times and moved the table in slightly several times - once I got a good fit between the side rails, the handwheel was zeroed so the rest could go quickly, just milled in to the zero tick. Here is one after trimming, when I was checking the fit. The cuts were done at the end of the middle bar, the end where it has the '6' marked on it.

(https://i.postimg.cc/265LyxBd/IMG-9823.jpg)
and here are the other five. So far the numbers are not really needed, but later on they will be, when the other bracket holes and such get added - each frame has different brackets and plates mounted to it.

(https://i.postimg.cc/j5kw7Jzp/IMG-9824.jpg)
I did set up for trimming the angles on the top ends of the side rails, got one done before stopping for the day.
(https://i.postimg.cc/pV45VzV8/IMG-9825.jpg)
Fits well...
(https://i.postimg.cc/mkvPdfpV/IMG-9828.jpg)
After all the angled ends are trimmed, the length of the side rails can be done. The bottom ends are just cut square across, larger blocks that the pad feet will be milled out of will be attached at the bottom ends.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Don1966 on July 31, 2021, 01:31:59 AM
Very intuitive Dog and …….i……………likeeeeee… :Love:


 :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 31, 2021, 04:27:04 PM
Very intuitive Dog and …….i……………likeeeeee… :Love:


 :drinking-41:
Don
Thanks Don!

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on July 31, 2021, 04:37:29 PM
The rest of the rails have been trimmed for the angled ends, here is what one set of parts looks like sitting in the jig now:
(https://i.postimg.cc/XYL7vjZM/IMG-9829.jpg)
Next step was to trimm the long side rails to final length. The bottom end is square across the bottom, so they were set up in the mill vise, with a 1-2-3 block clamped to the mill table to act as a length stop. Once the first one was nibbled to proper length, the handwheel was zeroed so the rest could go quickly.
(https://i.postimg.cc/KYYck6L1/IMG-9830.jpg)
Next up were the top horizontal rails. They were first trimmed to overall length, then I came back and started notching in the ends to form the little platform which will be used to bolt catwalk brackets to. First took off the two sides at each end (careful to keep the orientation correct so both ends matched). For these cuts, the far end of the rails were lined up with the other end of the mill vise, then a pass taken across. Lots of cuts to do both ends of all six rails, but this way it goes quick - clamp in vise, with left end aligned to vise back jaw, take a pass, on to next.

(https://i.postimg.cc/8zNzDJzB/IMG-9831.jpg)
Then deepened the cut to take off the third side:
(https://i.postimg.cc/cJ5xQFMX/IMG-9832.jpg)
I've been looking at the rest of the frames, and there are a number of extra blocks and posts that will be added. It turns out that those extra pieces would cover the ends of the joints, so I can actually use screws with heads countersunk in to join the rails rather than pinning them, and the other blocks will cover the holes left. This will be a lot easier to do, and a pair of screws at each joint will be very secure. Looks like 4-40 SHCS would fit fine.
The next job will be to lay out and cut for the plates on the top rails - there are overhangs on the top rails that support the cylinder bases. Each piston has a different base size and bolt pattern, so each pair of rails will be different - time to start marking which is which and which side is which!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on July 31, 2021, 07:50:15 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 01, 2021, 03:51:15 PM
Getting more done on the engine frames. While set up with the mill vise I finished trimming the pad feet blocks to the same size, and added another cradle set to the bottom of the jig to hold them. It looks a little like the frame Dr Frankenstein used to hold his monster shop elf down with! My elves took one look, screamed, and ran off and hid.
(https://i.postimg.cc/0QGMmcs6/IMG-9833.jpg)
Closeup of the new cradle, showing how it hold the block to the bottom of the frame for drilling.
(https://i.postimg.cc/tJX1zWqB/IMG-9834.jpg)
Then it was on to drilling/tapping the top crossbar to the first side of the frame. I have a center drill that is 3/16" diameter, so I used that to start the holes and it also left a hole sized for some brass rod to plug over the screw head. Used a clearance then tap drill for 4-40 screws.
(https://i.postimg.cc/28SbbQX6/IMG-9835.jpg)
And the first one done...
(https://i.postimg.cc/DypWqStc/IMG-9836.jpg)
Later on had a nice stack of hockey sticks for the elves next game...
(https://i.postimg.cc/3xyk9KhQ/IMG-9837.jpg)
Swapped the base rail over and started in drilling the holes on the second side of the frames. This is all working out well, takes about 15 minutes to do one joint, and it winds up all nicely aligned.
(https://i.postimg.cc/6qY8bqTt/IMG-9839.jpg)
First frame up to having sides/top on. After all are to this stage I'll start on the middle rails.
(https://i.postimg.cc/9XpwQ8bK/IMG-9840.jpg)
Just had to set it up on top of the model to get a sense of how it will look. Getting quite tall!!
(https://i.postimg.cc/vZpcNp8g/IMG-9841.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Brian Rupnow on August 02, 2021, 01:02:17 AM
Chris--I continue to watch, and marvel at how much work you do in a short time. You are doing great work, and a lot of it.---Brian
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 02, 2021, 06:01:45 PM
Great to have you along Brian!

And todays progress report is brought to you by the letter 'A'!   :Lol:
The middle rails were drilled/tapped and screwed in first on one side
(https://i.postimg.cc/N0TL2Ngm/IMG-9842.jpg)
and then the other
(https://i.postimg.cc/FRVRD7kK/IMG-9843.jpg)
After several sessions in the shop, a nice stack of capital A's ready for the pad feet to be attached:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Y02SVMQz/IMG-9845.jpg)
Given the height overall and the size of the foot blocks, I am thinking it will go quicker to drill/counterdrill the holes in the feet blocks just in the mill vise, then put them in the jig and drill the holes through into the rails. The mill column is just tall enough to do the final drilling with the tap drill, if I want to do the counterbores and all then I need to switch the drill chuck out for the 3-jaw, which adds a lot of time and fussing about. So, drill the counterbore and through drill the blocks with the tap size drill in the mill vise, use that as a drill guide for the side rails, then expand the block holes out to clearance back in the vise. Overall it should go quicker though it sounds like more steps.If the mill column was just another inch or so taller...!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on August 02, 2021, 07:14:54 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

I hope the shop elves don't get any ideas about appropriating the "a" frames to build their new trestle on the garden railway. If you are listening to the shop elf banter, and hear the code word "The Fonz" it might mean the trestle build is about to start. (The Fonz was famous for his "Aaaaaaaaaa" when arriving, on the Happy Days TV show)  :Lol:

(sorry  :facepalm:)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 03, 2021, 08:18:14 PM

....
(sorry  :facepalm: )
I know you, you're not sorry, I can hear the laughing from here!   :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 03, 2021, 08:25:43 PM
More drilling and tapping time, and the pad feet blocks are bolted on (no loctite or anything on the joints yet, still need to be able to take it all apart for cutting in attachment points on the inside faces for other bracketry and the crosshead guide rails).
(https://i.postimg.cc/KYpfPJr8/IMG-9847.jpg)
As you can see (just) at the bottom of the pads, they are square to the frame rails and dont sit flat on the table. They were cut a little oversize so that the bottom face of each could be taken off to the proper angle in the next step. The frame jig was bolted down square to the mill table, and the bottoms of the feet taken off square to the mill table. This ensures that the angles match up, the bottoms are all in a line, and the total height of the frame is correct - had to get out a longer dial caliper to measure the overall height, the usual 6" one would not reach.
(https://i.postimg.cc/PxBMcJ7G/IMG-9848.jpg)
A view looking down on the cut bottom faces:
(https://i.postimg.cc/NGHDX8yQ/IMG-9849.jpg)
So here is the first frame with the foot blocks cut, standing on the top of the engine beds. Five more to get to this stage, then a lot more shaping to do on the feet - end result will look more like the feet in this screen grab from the CAD model, which also shows the rest of the brackets and crosshead rails. Lots to do on the frames still!
(https://i.postimg.cc/fbZ7gqKv/Engine-Frames-View.jpg)




Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on August 04, 2021, 12:33:23 AM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Frame progress looks great!

(oh, and re the laughing - guilty as charged, m'lord...... :Lol:)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 04, 2021, 10:08:08 PM
Today got the rest of the pad feet bottom faces milled down, and started in with the shaping of the other sides of the feet. They get squared off to length/width at the bottom, and taper in to the sides of the frame rails, leaving the bosses sticking up for the mounting bolts. These are going to take a number of different setups. Started in with the width cuts at the bottom and next to the rails...
(https://i.postimg.cc/fW0j1rPQ/IMG-9853.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 05, 2021, 04:35:49 PM
Next up was to get the ends of the feet to the proper angle and length. The rest of these shaping steps will be done with the feet unscrewed from the frame rails and in the mill vise, not room to get around them in the frame jig. The one laying on the mill table to right of the vise is before trimming the ends square to the bottom faces.

(https://i.postimg.cc/L8hG005P/IMG-9855.jpg)
and after trimming the angles - both ends are square to the bottom faces, and to finished overall length.
(https://i.postimg.cc/v8tR1VC4/IMG-9854.jpg)
Now to trim the sides to the angle to go between the 1/8" wide flat at the bottom to meet the width of the frame rail at the top. Used a bevel gauge to record the angle on the first on, and draw a guide line on the rest to make the setup faster.
(https://i.postimg.cc/vH0phdYM/IMG-9857.jpg)
This shows the angles cut on on the sides of the first block compared to the starting shape of the next
(https://i.postimg.cc/SNSBcKpD/IMG-9856.jpg)
Small angles, but it really makes the appearance, aside from matching the originals! After the sides of all 12 blocks are trimmed, work can start on shaping the ends, which will be more complex to leave the bosses for the bolts and put in the curves to meet up with the frame rails.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on August 05, 2021, 08:10:00 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: ddmckee54 on August 06, 2021, 05:34:48 PM
Chris:

You been buying the bolts for this project by the gross, the pound, or the ton?

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 06, 2021, 07:01:36 PM
Chris:

You been buying the bolts for this project by the gross, the pound, or the ton?

Don
By the elf-load!
The size I use most is 2-56, some up to 5-40 and down to 0-80. The stainless hex head ones started getting hard to find a couple years ago so I tried to stock up whenever I saw them at a reasonable price. American Model Engineering sells all sizes, but is pricey and theirs are usually not fully threaded shanks, been able to find most sizes elsewhere. I did find a seller that had the 2-56x1/4" that I use most in a 10,000 count box, so have a lifetime supply of those! McMaster-Carr, Fastener Express, and MicroFasteners are my other usual sources, prices vary a lot so which I buy from does too - usually get several hundred at a time, have a stack of those plastic compartment boxes loaded up with all the sizes. Buying them by the hundred is a whole lot cheaper than by the dozen or each, way way cheaper! Wish I could find more in bulk to stock up, even buying 100 at a time gets pricey just in shipping cost. Also get the 'small-pattern' nuts when I can, they look better on models than the standard ones. Also use the long threaded rod for really long bolts.

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 06, 2021, 07:12:00 PM
More shoe-making for the engine frames....

With the foot blocks all tapered on the sides, next up was to cut in the flats on the ends where the mounting bolts to the engine beds will go. Same height but different width at each end. They will be notched in the center later.

(https://i.postimg.cc/FzB9D0Rv/IMG-9858.jpg)
Here is a pair showing the flats cut in on right, before version on left.

(https://i.postimg.cc/htxS1zqF/IMG-9859.jpg)
The ends get a shallow angle at the ends, goes to 1/8" above the base.
(https://i.postimg.cc/257rgs62/IMG-9861.jpg)
Here is where all the feet are so far, with next step sketched in to show how the flats get connected to the rails in a curve.
(https://i.postimg.cc/J4SrX3vc/IMG-9862.jpg)
I've started in on those cuts, using the rotary table. The assembled frames and feet are clamped down, I worked out positions on the clamps and a bolt to act as stops that the frame sits against to cut the inside curve - with this setup I can put each frame in and clamp it down in the same position which speeds up the work a lot.
(https://i.postimg.cc/XvbnHjVr/IMG-9863.jpg)
Closer look at the cut
(https://i.postimg.cc/05W2k1C4/IMG-9864.jpg)
and first frame with inside corners cut on the foot blocks
(https://i.postimg.cc/9FDXzg8Q/IMG-9865.jpg)
Five more frame for that step, then will work out a similar setup for the curves on the outside corners of the feet. The frames should be dancing in no time!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RReid on August 06, 2021, 08:22:13 PM
Quote
The frames should be dancing in no time!
As long as they do their dancing now and not while the engine is running! Looking great, as always.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on August 06, 2021, 09:31:44 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

The ancient saying "one man's feet are another man's 304.8 millimetres" comes to mind...... :Lol:

Just kidding. Lots of shaping to get those just so. Looking great!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 07, 2021, 03:47:24 PM
Got the other sides of the feet curved in as well

(https://i.postimg.cc/x82yjmjY/IMG-9866.jpg)

leaving a nice batch of almost-complete elf-boots

(https://i.postimg.cc/fT5jZkGn/IMG-9868.jpg)

Down to the last couple of steps - milled in the slots to separate the bosses for the mounting bolts

(https://i.postimg.cc/nL9vv2Cp/IMG-9869.jpg)

and then started drilling the bolt holes

(https://i.postimg.cc/L6mBrj03/IMG-9870.jpg)

First ones test fit to make sure the spacing is right both within each pad, and also between the two. Looks good, so can start on the rest of the pile.

(https://i.postimg.cc/Y26znd8S/IMG-9871.jpg)

Just had to set up the first two frames for a look, and also set the cylinder liner up about where the LP cylinder will go - it will be up on the cylinder base, so even taller.

(https://i.postimg.cc/XYzfGmNs/IMG-9873.jpg)

Turned around, and the shop elves had claimed it as thier new club house!

(https://i.postimg.cc/2S6d5rYq/IMG-9874.jpg)

This afternoon I'll continue drilling the rest of the pad feet, then can decide what to do next - still a lot to do on the frames, adding in the mounting pads for the lay shaft and cylinder bases, also a bunch of catwalk bracket pads, and thinning the width of the frames to final dimension. Oh, and the inside-corner curved bits too…
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steam guy willy on August 07, 2021, 04:39:22 PM
Wow ..looking really good  and the photos are also clear and sharp , so getting there slowly !!

Willy
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 07, 2021, 08:14:18 PM
Wow ..looking really good  and the photos are also clear and sharp , so getting there slowly !!

Willy
Thanks Willy - long way to go yet on the frames, but every stage it goes through really changes the look!
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Admiral_dk on August 07, 2021, 08:51:15 PM
Not only are you showing the current state of affairs on this amazing build - but all around the walls are other fantastic builds you have shared with us  :praise2:

For some reason the Shay are one of my favourites - maybe because it was your first here, and that it was posted in a period of not much other activity  :Love:

Per
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 07, 2021, 08:56:20 PM
Not only are you showing the current state of affairs on this amazing build - but all around the walls are other fantastic builds you have shared with us  :praise2:

For some reason the Shay are one of my favourites - maybe because it was your first here, and that it was posted in a period of not much other activity  :Love:

Per
Hi Per,


The Shay was the first big project I did in machining, had done a couple of clocks and small engines. I had a couple of the Kozo books for years, and after retirement I decided to give it a try, learned an awful lot from that build!  Now most of the projects seem to be big ones.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 07, 2021, 09:26:09 PM
After some nice reading time out on the front porch, got the rest of the mounting holes drilled in the engine frame feet and they are all assembled and bolted to the engine beds.   :whoohoo:
(https://i.postimg.cc/J0Ytnyjt/IMG-9875.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on August 08, 2021, 12:37:49 AM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 08, 2021, 08:11:31 PM
I worked out the blocks to inlay into the sides of the frame near the middle bar, where there are a couple bracket mounting points for the lay shaft catwalk. There is also a round boss that appears to be used as a lifting point when moving the frames into position (the real ones are close to 20 feet tall). I could have made these features as part of the side rails, but then would have had to mill away a lot of extra material for a couple small protrusions to be left. So, I am starting with some 1/4" x 1/2" bar stock, milling them to shape, and then will mill a shallow recess for them to fit into - will be held with small screws and loctite for good measure.
Here is what the inlays will look like:

(https://i.postimg.cc/mgZNmr3D/Middle-Block.jpg)

To start, cut/milled the blanks to length and then milled an angled step into a piece of aluminum (actually the angled bar for the frame jig) so each of the twelve bars could be held at a repeatable height and angle. The angle matches the angle of the side rails from vertical. With each held one at a time, ran an end mill in and around to form the angled ramp at the bottom, leaving the bracket boss sticking up. The round boss will be drilled/added as a seperate piece.
(https://i.postimg.cc/pdG0fFgR/IMG-9878.jpg)
Then clamped each piece vertically and ran the end mill down the face to form the curved section near the top
(https://i.postimg.cc/SsngDKh8/IMG-9879.jpg)
which left a little spike between the two, removed with another pass with small mill cutter
(https://i.postimg.cc/nr70fwMh/IMG-9880.jpg)
and then took the narrow boss down to final height
(https://i.postimg.cc/MTgd486L/IMG-9881.jpg)
Next time I'll lay out and start drilling the holes....
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 09, 2021, 01:57:30 PM
Moving on with the side blocks, got the holes drilled for the round posts, and spot drilled the locations for all the screw holes on the mill. Then used the little Proxxon drill press to drill the screw holes - much faster on that for 1-72 tap size than the mill, that small a hole needs backing out for chips a couple times.
(https://i.postimg.cc/fyxD5rVh/IMG-9882.jpg)
Also turned up a bunch of tube segments on the lathe for the posts...
(https://i.postimg.cc/J0wRNL4q/IMG-9883.jpg)
Then set up the frame fixture again to start milling the slots for the side blocks:
(https://i.postimg.cc/50QxQ01y/IMG-9884.jpg)
closer view
(https://i.postimg.cc/Xvzjv5Rt/IMG-9885.jpg)
and the first side block fitted in
(https://i.postimg.cc/s2XfymNp/IMG-9887.jpg)
The side blocks will be held with two screws and loctite.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 09, 2021, 06:26:48 PM
Got the rest of the recesses cut this afternoon, and started drilling/tapping the holes for mounting the side blocks
(https://i.postimg.cc/tCnDYGLT/IMG-9888.jpg)
Here is one of the first pair screwed on, and the round post set in place. Loctiting them in will wait till the rest of the inlay blocks are done, there are more to get cut into the inside faces of the rails, so I need to be able to take the rails off still.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Z5kHNDSL/IMG-9891.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Roger B on August 09, 2021, 07:27:03 PM
So many fine pieces (but you do have some helpers  :) )  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp: :wine1:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 10, 2021, 08:33:41 PM
So many fine pieces (but you do have some helpers  :) )  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :wine1:
Thanks Roger!  (and thanks to the elves too, they do help, between raucus parties and RC truck thefts)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 10, 2021, 08:52:26 PM
And continuing on the umpteenth page of this build (  :LittleDevil: ) more done on the top fittings on the engine frames. The blocks inlaid into the middle of the side rails could have been duplicated at the top as well, since there is another set of bracket mounting bosses there too. But, the top horizontal rail was cut long enough to get most of that built in, which is saving some time. The top boss was put in when I made the top rails, but the curve to blend it into the side rails needed to wait till now, so that there are side rails to blend to! So, did just that, several plunge cuts to remove the bulk of the material then a couple fine passes to smooth it out:
(https://i.postimg.cc/2jMZ6f0y/IMG-9892.jpg)
Here is what the look like at that point
(https://i.postimg.cc/q7wKMhFH/IMG-9893.jpg)
The vertical boss for the bottom of the catwalk bracket went through several rounds of thinking, then I realized that I have a small corner rounding end mill, with a 1/16" radius - perfect for rounding the ends on some 1/8" bar, to fit in a slot made by a 1/8" end mill. That idea hit me in the back of the head last night (might have been accompanied by a shop elve's beer stein) so I got to work on shaping a round-sided bar:
(https://i.postimg.cc/d0wdYm49/IMG-9894.jpg)
Took some trial and error to get the depths right in both directions, then it was done on both sides. A matching slot was cut in the top ends of the side rails:
(https://i.postimg.cc/0jMKfty9/IMG-9895.jpg)
to take the rounded bar:
(https://i.postimg.cc/d10y7QMk/IMG-9896.jpg)
That worked great, so milled the rest of the slots and cut short lengths off the bar, which were then loctited into the slots.The next bit to go on is the short projection off the top rail. All six frames have the same projection on one side, but different length ones on the other side, so I started with the simple ones. Took some 1/8" square bar and drilled/tapped for a couple 2-56 screws. Working with this small a bar was easier in the mini-vise - the parallels I have would have held them up in the normal vise, but the parallels are also 1/8" thick, which makes it hard to ensure the bar is held properly too.
(https://i.postimg.cc/JndBjwmT/IMG-9898.jpg)
Then milled a notch at the edge of the top rails, clamped the short bars (which needed the lower corners sanded in a radius to match the inside corners left by the end mill) into the opening, and drilled/tapped into the top rail. Now, I don't want to leave a screw head showing, and the bars are too thin to countersink them in, so I threaded both pieces together.

(https://i.postimg.cc/8PvrfnYH/IMG-9899.jpg)
When assembled some loctite was put into the notch and also the screw holes, and I used some brass screws. After the loctite has set up the heads will be ground off on the sander to leave the faces flat. Also put in the round bosses at the top.

(https://i.postimg.cc/13ZVGrhZ/IMG-9900.jpg)
The vertical bosses will need some cleanup on the faces to get them all the same distance out, can do that as well after the loctite has cured. Then will drill/tap all the holes for the top catwalk brackets, and move on to the rest of the protrusions needed on the frames - 14 pieces plus screws per frame so far, and thats maybe half what they will have when complete.


Tomorrow am off to the Pageant of Steam in Canandaigua NY, that show usually has a bunch of traction engines trundling around, lots of farm tractors, and construction equipment playing in the dirt.   :cartwheel:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dan Rowe on August 10, 2021, 10:05:27 PM
Chris, That is some nifty work I had to go back several pages to find the cad drawing to see these all up, so I grabbed the image for comparison.

(https://i.postimg.cc/fbZ7gqKv/Engine-Frames-View.jpg)

Cheers Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 10, 2021, 10:15:07 PM
Thanks Dan,  yup, still a lot to make on the frames. All the gridwork for the crosshead guides, inside corner fill blocks at the horizontal to vertical connections, and the mounting pads for all the lay shaft brackets and the K frames. Weeks worth to go!


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on August 11, 2021, 05:27:09 AM
Wow, Chris!  You've made a ton of progress!  I'm out for a week and you forge ahead like a runaway steam engine!  Those A-frames are looking great!

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on August 11, 2021, 12:54:09 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Enjoy the steam show! Don't forget to lock the beer fridge and spirit locker - when the cat's away shop elves will play!  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 11, 2021, 01:49:58 PM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Enjoy the steam show! Don't forget to lock the beer fridge and spirit locker - when the cat's away shop elves will play!  :Lol:
Some rainstorms moved through so we got a late start. I'm taking the elves along, the friend I am meeting there just bought a new Vette, so I will see if the elves can hotwire it...  :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on August 11, 2021, 06:16:54 PM
I can imagine the police radio broadcast now:  "All cars BOLO 1995 Corvette, male driver 10" tall, caucasian, brown hair, with hardhat. Passengers -  14 male passengers also 10" tall, two with burnt fingers. Possible destination - stores selling beer"  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 11, 2021, 09:13:21 PM
I can imagine the police radio broadcast now:  "All cars BOLO 1995 Corvette, male driver 10" tall, caucasian, brown hair, with hardhat. Passengers -  14 male passengers also 10" tall, two with burnt fingers. Possible destination - stores selling beer"  :Lol:
So THATS why they get away with it - the BOLO called for 10" tall guys, these elves are only 4" tall! (hey you in the Corvette, move along, we are looking for your older brothers!)   
 :lolb:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 11, 2021, 09:20:16 PM
Catching up on work on the engine frame brackets - most of this was done yesterday, I was off at the steam show today - uploading pics/video from that, will post some highlights next.
So, I cut out the blanks for the longer brackets on the sides of four of the frames, and milled in recesses to form the brackets.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sDqXtKqb/IMG-9902.jpg)
Here they are, two long, two short, two of the frames dont have these - they are to give better support for the different sized cylinders blocks on each set of frames.
(https://i.postimg.cc/tgt4nbJH/IMG-9903.jpg)
The put a smaller vise in the main one, at an angle to cut the sides of the brackets.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Cx81YkV5/IMG-9904.jpg)
Then notched the sides of four of the frames, on the opposite side as the single rails I added yesterday morning.
(https://i.postimg.cc/nzFcvW99/IMG-9905.jpg)
These notches hold the brackets, down below the level of the frame so that the bracket back wall will sit flush.

(https://i.postimg.cc/nzFcvW99/IMG-9905.jpg)
Here is the first one set in place - as you can see if you look close at the far end in upper right, it sits a little below flush, since the sides of the frames still need to be trimmed down to final dimension, and the notches took that into account.
(https://i.postimg.cc/HLCLLnp2/IMG-9906.jpg)
All four then were drilled/tapped for screws to hold them in place, like I did with the single rails previously.
Next I think will be to start on the inlays for the inside corners of the middle/top rails, so they will blend the sharp corners into curves, and also start on the cross bars for the crosshead guides.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 11, 2021, 09:31:37 PM
As promised, a few pictures from the Pageant Of Steam show today held down near Canandaigua Lake in western New York State. Always a fun show, they had 9 or 10 traction engines trundling around and running machines in the sawmill and shingle mill, threshing machines, bailers, etc. Also a LOT of farm tractors, hit and miss engines, some excavators playing in the dirt piles, a small model show in one of the buildings, and a lot of flea market vendors around the outside.
A few highlight photos:
They have a couple buildings with some stationary engines, including a corliss mill engine and a big generator
(https://i.postimg.cc/SKsmRMBc/IMG-2532.jpg)
This one is from a factory in Penn Yan I think he said, being assembled - its a twin Corliss

(https://i.postimg.cc/0y5sXS2h/IMG-2534.jpg)

Inside of a little steam launch - couple of the pics came out sideways, whoops! Thought I had editted that... Oh well, have a big gulp of Elfensteiner Beer and it will look right when you fall down!
(https://i.postimg.cc/T1r6Fqbv/IMG-2538.jpg)

Here is the launch
(https://i.postimg.cc/DyTFsHVv/IMG-2540.jpg)

Some of the traction engines, all US brands like Case
(https://i.postimg.cc/KjXb0sR5/IMG-2543.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/V601BcL6/IMG-2544.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/kXvCys9x/IMG-2545.jpg)

This one was running the sawmill
(https://i.postimg.cc/WprTdjHY/IMG-2548.jpg)

A small herd of cable operaterated excavators
(https://i.postimg.cc/wBGgmBzZ/IMG-2551.jpg)


And a video with some short highlight clips:
lR803eLYI9o
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on August 12, 2021, 12:09:28 AM
Great steam show pics! Thanks for posting them. TWO Corliss engines at one show! Never seen an oil burner on a boat's VFT boiler before - but a nifty idea. Cleaner than coal and safer than propane - and smells like the inside of a Kenworth engine's injector pump. The low slung Eclipse / Frick engine was nice to see. I used to see a few here in Ontario, but not in the last couple of years. You know I've looked and looked at them and never saw any "e" clips at all, not sure why they are called Eclipse....  :facepalm:  :cheers:

Terrific progress on the Holly frame details and brackets!   :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RReid on August 12, 2021, 02:31:57 AM
Looks like a great show! Lots of interesting old goodies. I like the dump truck just as much as the steam shovel!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 12, 2021, 02:54:11 AM
Looks like a great show! Lots of interesting old goodies. I like the dump truck just as much as the steam shovel!
That shovel is an early backhoe type, before they had the pivot at the bucket worked out, so the whole boom had to tip to dump. All I could think was that it's a good thing that there was no sunroof in the truck!! Very cool to watch them work.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 12, 2021, 02:56:01 AM
Great steam show pics! Thanks for posting them. TWO Corliss engines at one show! Never seen an oil burner on a boat's VFT boiler before - but a nifty idea. Cleaner than coal and safer than propane - and smells like the inside of a Kenworth engine's injector pump. The low slung Eclipse / Frick engine was nice to see. I used to see a few here in Ontario, but not in the last couple of years. You know I've looked and looked at them and never saw any "e" clips at all, not sure why they are called Eclipse....  :facepalm: :cheers:

Terrific progress on the Holly frame details and brackets!   :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
I didn't realize it was an oil burner, we were thinking it was a blower for starting the coal, but you are right! Very pretty launch.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on August 12, 2021, 05:22:05 AM
Thanks for the pics of the steam show.  That looks pretty cool.

So, they just turned the shovels loose in a field and let them dig holes all over?  That's pretty amazing.  Did they have to put the dirt back when they were done?

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 12, 2021, 01:16:28 PM
Thanks for the pics of the steam show.  That looks pretty cool.

So, they just turned the shovels loose in a field and let them dig holes all over?  That's pretty amazing.  Did they have to put the dirt back when they were done?

Kim
It looked like they had piles of dirt trucked in at some point, no holes down below grade. The steam club there owns the land, so I think they just leave the piles year to year.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: propforward on August 12, 2021, 02:04:59 PM
It's always good to see those old engines working and doing what they are supposed to. The annual steam threshers reunion at Rollag is coming up soon - might get along to that.

Your build continues to impress as always Chris!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 12, 2021, 04:10:05 PM
It's always good to see those old engines working and doing what they are supposed to. The annual steam threshers reunion at Rollag is coming up soon - might get along to that.

Your build continues to impress as always Chris!
That Rollag show is one I wish I could get to, on my bucket list, but am taking a number of other trips this summer and it is about 20 hours of drive time (excluding stops) from home, just too much given the other trips. If you go, take pictures and videos for us!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 12, 2021, 04:30:53 PM
This morning I got started on the little bits that form the fillets on the inside corners of the horizontal/vertical rail joints, like shown in this picture:
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZKsGj50L/Franme-Corners.jpg)
On the lower pump rails, I did this with some JB Weld and sanded in the radius. Worked, but I want to see if I can do this in metal instead. After some playing around in Fusion, I figured out the order of cuts that will make these pieces. Started with some 1" round bar, and bored in a hole to match the radius needed (a little under 1/4" radius). Then moved it to the rotary table on the mill, and started milling in flats that just touch the bore. First one at zero degrees
(https://i.postimg.cc/RZV0JFyQ/IMG-9907.jpg)
Then rotated the part 80.5 degrees, which matches the angle of the frame rails to each other, and milled another
(https://i.postimg.cc/gjV086G4/IMG-9908.jpg)
Then one at another 99.5, last one another 80.5 degrees. This forms two pairs of corners, one pair that will work on the larger angle, one pair that will work on the smaller angle
(https://i.postimg.cc/L4L5rGjf/IMG-9909.jpg)
Then raised the cutter .100, and milled another set of flats parallel to the first set - this forms the tenon that will fit in slots to be cut in the rails.
(https://i.postimg.cc/hP0jGxyt/IMG-9910.jpg)
Before continuing on, milled slots at the center to seperate the tenons - doing this later would be tough, easier when still on the end of the bar. The cutter was lowered back down the .100 to the original height.

(https://i.postimg.cc/R0WVGYMW/IMG-9911.jpg)
Then moved over and cut matching flats at the original height to shape in the flats on the other side of the tenon
(https://i.postimg.cc/WbVzjS7y/IMG-9912.jpg)
The parts were then sawn off the bar, leaving them a little wide. They will get trimmed to final width when the side rails are trimmed too. Here is one showing how it fits into the corner, until the mortise slots are cut I can't center it on the rails. Does it show that I'm a long-time woodworker in naming the joints?!
(https://i.postimg.cc/T373VxX8/IMG-9914.jpg)
This shows the two angles needed for the pairs of corners, the side rails are 80.5 degrees from each other, not 90, so two angles needed.
(https://i.postimg.cc/25gjtx62/IMG-9916.jpg)
Four corners down, lots more to make!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Jo on August 12, 2021, 04:42:37 PM
Nice use of the rotary table to give you the 99.5/80.5 degree angles Chris  :)

Jo
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on August 12, 2021, 06:45:10 PM
Very cool technique, Chris!
It will be interesting to see how it comes out.  Looks like it should be pretty nice.
Love the fabrication technique :)
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 12, 2021, 07:48:11 PM
Thanks Jo/Kim,  so far so good, after the first set the next one took about 20 minutes. After six sets, will need just the wider angle ones for the top rail corners, can get three of those per set.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 13, 2021, 02:15:37 PM
Working on more of the little corner pieces today, but a side question for you folks....

As I've mentioned previously, I got a copy of the blueprints for the Allis pumping engine in the Waterworks Museum in Boston back in June, and have been converting them to a 3D CAD model for them. The lower pump level is now done, and I'm looking to start on the engine beds and crankshaft next. While studying the crankshaft sheet, I spotted something that I have never seen before on the joint where the journal pin goes through the crank webs. Well, two things - the pins on the HP/LP cranks are smaller diameter than the IP pin, but thats just an interesting note.
The real interesting thing is how the pin gets held to the webs. It looks to be a press fit in one side, but the other has a bearing/box arrangement. At first I thought that it was just a way of connecting the two halves of the crankshaft for manufacture/transport, but on closer look it has a brass bearing and gaps for movement in it too. Here is a snippet of the IP crank web drawing:

(https://i.postimg.cc/MKjScRfg/Crank-Drag-Box2.jpg)
On the left side of the pin, it steps down from 14" to 13-7/8" to go through the web, I assume that is a press fit. All as I expected. On the right side though, it steps down more, and has a tapered sleeve and bolt/washer too. Again, at first I thought it might be a taper collet arrangement of some sort. But, elsewhere on the page is this diagram with a closeup view of it:
(https://i.postimg.cc/1t5S4jDK/Crank-Drag-Box.jpg)Here it shows the tapered piece is brass, which implies that it is more of a bearing? Also, that piece is not round on the outside, but square. Even more interesting is the gap shown by the red arrows - the box is 15" square, but the hole it goes in is 15" x 16", so there is a 1/2" gap either side in the one direction, no gap in the other direction. In the view on the right, the gap direction is along the length of the web, making me thing that it can slide in/out as needed, but is held close in the rotation direction. Is that to allow for any misalignment or flex in the main frame/bearings maybe?Also, the blue arrows show that there is a hex shapeto the internals of the box, I dont understand that part at all - is that another piece, or a cutout in the corners?I've never heard of the term 'drag box' before, searching for it gives results about joints on locomotive tender frames, but I have not found an explanation in that context that makes sense either.
So, anyone out there who can give a good explanation of what this feature is all about? Free shop gnomes to anyone who does.  Whats that? Oh, okay, free shop gnome capture and removal then!!

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on August 13, 2021, 04:38:47 PM
It looks to me that the drag box approach was intended to deal with tolerance stackup of the crankshaft and bearings/frame during assembly. It could take up any misalignment that may arise at final assembly. No matter how careful the crank pressing operation was, there could be slight errors of tolerance. In the frame, due to the massive size and the stationary pit installation, some settling and mass related flex is inevitable (and hard to predict at the design stage due to the many variables). The drag box could be intended to take up these errors at install time but also actively during running. Having a drag box providing some flex might be the difference between a workable assembly and a bound-up one, or the crank going over stress limits and cracking. That would be a costly disaster. Expansion and contraction as the engine heats and cools is another factor that could be addressed by the drag box approach. Yes, the cranks are a long way from the cylinders and heat has to travel across a couple of bearings, but eventually heat from the cylinders will reach the crank and later, the frames, as the engine runs and component temps rise. This will affect a fixed stroke crank as well as the bearing fits, however small the temp change and size change is. If the whole assembly doesn't have somewhere for the thermal growth or shrinkage to be taken up, breakages could result. Likely the designers of the Holly and other large engines were very aware of these issues and my hat is off to them for working through the issues - with no computers or calculators at all, just slide rules and a pencil - and solving them.

Small machines have their own stackup problems but generally are much easier to sort out than similar issues in massive assemblies.

Just my opinion about the purpose of the drag box approach - I do not know if this was the reason or if there were other reasons. :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on August 13, 2021, 04:46:49 PM
Forgot to mention a couple of thoughts about the angled cutouts in the big box bearing piece:

1. could have been intended to be reservoirs for grease or oil
2. could have been intended as a weight or a material cost reduction purpose (a heck of a lot of yellow metal in a 15 x 15" box!)
3. could have been intended to keep Holly shop elves/gnomes from sitting on the edges of the boxes while they were on the shop floor  :Lol:

 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dan Rowe on August 13, 2021, 06:20:32 PM
Chris, very interesting feature. The brass bearing for the crankpin has square flanges and is octagonal in the center section, this is how I read the dotted lines indicated by the blue arrows.

Is this a joint for two halves of the crank or does each crankpin have a drag box?

Cheers Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 13, 2021, 06:57:32 PM
Chris, very interesting feature. The brass bearing for the crankpin has square flanges and is octagonal in the center section, this is how I read the dotted lines indicated by the blue arrows.

Is this a joint for two halves of the crank or does each crankpin have a drag box?

Cheers Dan
Hi Dan,
Each crank pin has a drag box on one of its connections to the pair of webs, the other web has the pin press fit in place. I didn't show the other two cranks, but they are the same setup but with a smaller diameter pin and smaller drag box. I don't know why the HP and LP would have smaller pins either, except that they dont join two halves like the center one does.

This is on the Allis engine design - on the Holly, which this build is about, has all three pins the same size, and pressed in both webs in the center one, though it does have one round end and one square end,

.....he says, as he goes and takes another look through the Holly plans to be sure.....
Now wait just an elf-scratchin minute! 

Just found a similar feature there, but just on the middle (IP) crank on the Holly since that is the only double-web crank on the Holly.  Just found these two pages (there are several hundred sheets on the Holly plan set)
This is the side of the crank web on the holly with the square hole - had seen that, but didnt see the one following it:
(https://i.postimg.cc/7YDQM255/Holly-Crank-1.jpg)

This one has the same type of box, they call it a Sliding Box - I hadn't realized what that was before:
(https://i.postimg.cc/FsZCPHSD/Holly-Crank2.jpg)
On this one for the Holly, the gap on the non-rotation axis is smaller, just 1/4" total rather than the full 1" on the Allis, but its the same basic shapes! The Holly one does not call out brass, or show any shims, like the Allis uses. The Holly one has the same bolt in the end as the Allis to hold the cap for keeping the box from sliding off.


Now that is quite interesting! I am leaning towards agreeing with you guys, it would help out the alignment/flexing issues, though the cranks these are part of are in the center of one of the engine beds, so things can't be that far out other than twisting moments. Twisting could be a large issue on engines this big, so that would be a concern I guess - maybe this helps with metal fatigue problems - the forces on pistons/cranks this large must be immense.

And as for the hex relief cuts in the Allis engine, that would both cut down on material and allow for easier movement in the opening, the Holly one does show oil channels in the box. Gee, wonder if they would let me borrow that giant wrench leaning on the machine and pull off some bolts....!

Thanks guys - just talking this through got me to look closer at more plan sheets, plus more opinions help out too!  Anyone else with knowledge of this feature please speak up as well!
Chris
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: ddmckee54 on August 13, 2021, 08:13:08 PM
OK, I think we agree that these block thingees, whatever Holly called them, started out their life as a square-ish lump of brass with a hole through the middle of it.  I've been wracking my brain, at least the 2 or 3 remaining working brain cells, trying to figure out why they took the chunks out of the corners - there HAD to be a good reason.  I have a theory, in your best Baldrick voice say it with me - "I have a cunning plan M'Lord!"

It was casting type black magic voodoo stuff - I think.  If you look at the plan, the wall thickness through the cut-out section of that block is pretty consistent.  It might have been to keep from getting voids in those areas as the casting cooled and the liquid brass froze.  I doubt that it was to use less brass in the casting, if you were making a gazillion of these engines then yeah you'd want to save the pennies and use less brass.  But in the onesy-twosy quantities that they made these engines they'd just pass the extra expense along to the customer - somehow.

Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 13, 2021, 08:18:42 PM

OK, I think we agree that these block thingees, whatever Holly called them, started out their life as a square-ish lump of brass with a hole through the middle of it.  I've been wracking my brain, at least the 2 or 3 remaining working brain cells, trying to figure out why they took the chunks out of the corners - there HAD to be a good reason.  I have a theory, in your best Baldrick voice say it with me - "I have a cunning plan M'Lord!"

It was casting type black magic voodoo stuff - I think.  If you look at the plan, the wall thickness through the cut-out section of that block is pretty consistent.  It might have been to keep from getting voids in those areas as the casting cooled and the liquid brass froze.  I doubt that it was to use less brass in the casting, if you were making a gazillion of these engines then yeah you'd want to save the pennies and use less brass.  But in the onesy-twosy quantities that they made these engines they'd just pass the extra expense along to the customer - somehow.

Don


Good thinking Baldrick!!   :lolb:  Been a long time since I saw that show, but it sticks with you like Baldrick's smell...   :ROFL:


That does make sense, thanks!

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on August 13, 2021, 09:05:13 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 13, 2021, 09:13:44 PM
And after a very nice lunch out with friends and some nap/read time on the porch, I got the last of the little inside-corner filler pieces milled out. Saved making a batch from what I thought since I could get four of the wider-angle ones plus a little waste rather than the three per batch than I was thinking ahead of time. Here are the two piles, 12 of the narrow-angle ones for on top of the middle cross rail, and 24 of the wider angle ones for below the middle and top cross bars:
(https://i.postimg.cc/zG9g1nZ7/IMG-9922.jpg)
Next up would appear to be to make the crosshead guide rails and their supports, which go between all four rails at the top opening, like in the picture I used to show the inside corners - just finished the bits at the red arrows, time to make the grid between them:

(https://i.postimg.cc/ZKsGj50L/Frame-Corners.jpg)
They will also have tabs sticking out to slot into the rails. Once they are done there will be a lot of assembly work, followed by thinning the rails and adding those mounting pads around the edges and all the mounting holes there and in the top rail. May have the engine frames all done by September. Or in September.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dan Rowe on August 13, 2021, 10:36:59 PM
Ah more information......

I am assuming the same connecting rod is connecting the steam piston and the water piston so how does it connect to the pin?

How can the big end conrod bearing be changed? I spotted a split crankshaft engine made to use roller bearings the split was to be able to get the bearings on. So could the sliding box be an access point for the conrod bearing?

Cheers Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 14, 2021, 12:21:14 AM
Ah more information......

I am assuming the same connecting rod is connecting the steam piston and the water piston so how does it connect to the pin?

How can the big end conrod bearing be changed? I spotted a split crankshaft engine made to use roller bearings the split was to be able to get the bearings on. So could the sliding box be an access point for the conrod bearing?

Cheers Dan
Hi Dan,
The water piston/plungers on the pumps at the bottom have four rods coming up from big plates on top of the plungers - those rods come up around the sides of the cranks and connect to arms coming off the crossheads, so the pump plunger itself does not need a crosshead, the motion is kept vertical by the rods on the upper crosshead.

The bottom end of the conrod is split, with a bolt-on lower end cap so the split bearing can be changed out that way (the plans show Babbit bearing liners).  The conrod/crank setup is pretty typical of any big steam engine, the only real change is that connection to the crosshead for the plungers, pretty clever. On both engines, they even have provision for a small water/air pump down at the bottom that connects to one of the pump plungers (my term plungers, I dont know what they call them, they are essentially the same as a hand-operated ram pump like we use for testing boilers, except a LOT bigger and they have 1200 to 1400 check valves!
That sliding box looks like it was just there for the crankshaft motion/alignment, though a lot of that is a guess. The other end of the crank pin is fixed into the other web, appears to be a one-time press fit, no keys or bolts over on that side is shown. On the Holly engine, the two end cylinders have one-sided cranks, on the Allis they are all two-sided, though the second side is a lot lighter and the end of the crankshaft there is thinner. It looks like they only did that since there is another offset crank off each end that drives the lay shaft up above for the valves. On the Holly the lay shaft has a pair of bevel gear sets to drive it.
I'm going to be back at the waterworks museum in Boston in a couple weeks to meet with the director again and tour the engines up close/on the catwalks, will be getting a lot more pictures then of the pump level and the upper machine levels. Great working with them, I get access to the plans and machines, they are learning a lot about steam engines and pumps in return plus I am making them diagrams and animations - a win/win for all.
For better view of how things connect up, here is a picture from the CAD version of the relevant parts of the Holly engine (have not gotten up to the crankshaft on the Allis drawings yet). Note that I do not have the conrods/pistons all linked up to the proper positions on the crankshaft yet, that will come later when I get a chance to animate the movements, all are at one level at the moment, but you can see the relationships better than my rambling words up above!

(https://i.postimg.cc/9MVzm2mg/Pump-Connections.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dan Rowe on August 14, 2021, 02:17:08 PM
Chris, I was a Marine Engineer and worked on 900mm bore Sulzer engines which are the closest thing to a large steam engine built today. I have looked at lots of books on large engines and that is a feature that I have never seen.

The main difference between this type of engine and a ships engine is the starting load and the fact that not much load or no load is used on the end of the shaft. All the main load is in the center of the shaft. My guess is the big pin you posted on the Alias engine is in the center of the crank so it has to share some of the load from the other two pistons.

I am not buying the alignment theory as lots of large engines were built without this feature.

Cheers Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 14, 2021, 02:30:52 PM
Chris, I was a Marine Engineer and worked on 900mm bore Sulzer engines which are the closest thing to a large steam engine built today. I have looked at lots of books on large engines and that is a feature that I have never seen.

The main difference between this type of engine and a ships engine is the starting load and the fact that not much load or no load is used on the end of the shaft. All the main load is in the center of the shaft. My guess is the big pin you posted on the Alias engine is in the center of the crank so it has to share some of the load from the other two pistons.

I am not buying the alignment theory as lots of large engines were built without this feature.

Cheers Dan
Hi Dan,


This feature really has be puzzled. On the Allis engine they have it on all three cranks. On the Holly the two end cranks are one side webs, so no box joint there.  I spent a lot of time last night doing patent searches, could not find anything related to it.
After more thought I am discounting alignment too, the cranks are in the middle of each engine bed, and the beds could be aligned to each other.
Hmmmm...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dan Rowe on August 14, 2021, 03:27:47 PM
the beds could be aligned to each other.

Chris, the beds have to be aligned!!

I have taken crankshaft deflection readings on a Sulzer. There is a witness mark on the crank webs to locate a dial indicator. The crank is rotated so the marks just clear the conrod and the indicator is attached and the crank is rotated away from the rod until the indicator is almost touching the other side of the rod. The readings are compared to the readings taken when the engine was erected. This checks how much the crankshaft has bent in service.

I think the box joint was to keep the crankshaft from twisting or bending. My guess is that if a solid crankshaft was used it would have to be even larger to accommodate the forces of the pump plungers.

Cheers Dan

Edit: here is a Sulzer a bit larger than the ones I worked on:
https://www.autoblog.com/photos/w-rtsil-sulzer-rta96-c/#slide-1755060
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 14, 2021, 04:01:36 PM
the beds could be aligned to each other.

Chris, the beds have to be aligned!!

I have taken crankshaft deflection readings on a Sulzer. There is a witness mark on the crank webs to locate a dial indicator. The crank is rotated so the marks just clear the conrod and the indicator is attached and the crank is rotated away from the rod until the indicator is almost touching the other side of the rod. The readings are compared to the readings taken when the engine was erected. This checks how much the crankshaft has bent in service.

I think the box joint was to keep the crankshaft from twisting or bending. My guess is that if a solid crankshaft was used it would have to be even larger to accommodate the forces of the pump plungers.

Cheers Dan

Edit: here is a Sulzer a bit larger than the ones I worked on:
https://www.autoblog.com/photos/w-rtsil-sulzer-rta96-c/#slide-1755060 (https://www.autoblog.com/photos/w-rtsil-sulzer-rta96-c/#slide-1755060)
Thanks Dan!  That Sulzer is a beast!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 14, 2021, 07:06:09 PM
This morning I worked out in the CAD app the dimensions for a silver-soldering jig for the crosshead guide parts. Need to make six of them, so well worth the time to make up a jig. The weather today is SO nice compared to the high heat this past week, so rest of the day is outdoors!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 16, 2021, 03:39:53 PM
The last two days have been used to get the jig and bar stock ready for the crosshead guides that go in each of the engine frames. Here is the jig for silver soldering plus the rough cut bars for the guides:
(https://i.postimg.cc/B6k4x7nf/IMG-9924.jpg)
The taller posts will hold the 1/2" wide bars on edge at top/bottom/sides, and the shorter posts along the sides will have the narrow bars laying flat on them, held in the middle of the 1/2" bars to form a T shape. The screws along the bottom and sides will hold things together for soldering - will show pictures of that once the bars are trimmed to length. Bunch of time in the jig, but the bars are too thin to use screws to hold them together for soldering, and this setup should give repeatable results. I cut the large holes in the back of the jig to let the torch flame pass through, keeping the jig from getting quite as hot - the bars are thin, so they should get up to temperature quickly.


Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on August 16, 2021, 04:25:14 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 16, 2021, 10:19:06 PM
Thanks CNR - don't overdose on the popcorn, throw in some peanuts too!   :Lol:

Got the bars prepped for soldering, took them all to length, doing them all ganged up a size at a time. Clamped them in the vise, trimmed the ends square, then grabbed the ends with a small clamp to hold them together to flip them around and trim the other end to length. For the shorter pieces, that means using two clamps - one to get them out of the vise, attach the other clamp to the un-cut end, remove the first clamp, and put them in the vise using the second clamp.
(https://i.postimg.cc/wTVj1psS/IMG-9925.jpg)
and a few shots showing the first set all held in the soldering fixture - two long/wide bars for the crosshead guides, two long/narrow bars for the T shape next to them, a short bar at the top and a long bar for the bottom.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Y2Q9wg22/IMG-9926.jpg)
The narrow bars are held up in place so they land in the center of the wide bars, a view at the top
(https://i.postimg.cc/TYGP2whV/IMG-9927.jpg)
and from the bottom end
(https://i.postimg.cc/Hkks5hwj/IMG-9928.jpg)
Tomorrow I'll set up the torch outside and get started silver soldering them all together....
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on August 17, 2021, 12:33:03 AM
Soldering jig looks great!   :cheers:

I have just dispatched 2 of my peskiest shop gnomes in a very rusted 1961 Ford Falcon with iffy piston rings , 17 litres of oil, and 147 pounds of roasted peanuts. Rochester or bust, they said. Could mean they are looking for a strip club rather than Rochester, or will be by with your peanuts in a few days (or months, in that car)  :cheers:

PS do keep the gnomes  if when they arrive........ :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 17, 2021, 01:08:48 AM
Soldering jig looks great!   :cheers:

I have just dispatched 2 of my peskiest shop gnomes in a very rusted 1961 Ford Falcon with iffy piston rings , 17 litres of oil, and 147 pounds of roasted peanuts. Rochester or bust, they said. Could mean they are looking for a strip club rather than Rochester, or will be by with your peanuts in a few days (or months, in that car)  :cheers:

PS do keep the gnomes  if when they arrive........ :Lol:


 :Lol:


Good thing you told them Rochester.  You didn't say which one, the one in Minnesota, the one in New Hampshire, New York...  Knowing gnomes, they are building up speed for the ramp in Nova Scotia aiming for the one in the UK since the beer is better there!!   :LittleDevil:    :ROFL:


If they DO make it here, which is not IN Rochester but outside it, at least I have bags of fresh mint chocolate chip cookies to convert them to Shop Elves, and put them to work!   :LickLips:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Don1966 on August 17, 2021, 01:17:18 AM
Very well thought out jig Dog, you never cease to amaze me…….. :Love:

 :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 17, 2021, 01:49:47 AM
Very well thought out jig Dog, you never cease to amaze me…….. :Love:

 :drinking-41:
Don
Thanks Don - we'll see how well it holds up to the torch!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: MJM460 on August 17, 2021, 04:26:44 AM
Hi Chris, a very ingenious jig for a complex part.  Do you have to use centre pop marks or something similar in the edge of the narrow strips to establish the necessary gap for the silver solder?

Looking forward to seeing how it performs.

With your upcoming visit to the full size engines, I had better hurry up and put together that post on the pulsation dampeners.  To put some pressure on myself, look for it in the next couple of days.

Amazing how time moves in lockdown.

MJM460

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 17, 2021, 01:08:57 PM
Hi Chris, a very ingenious jig for a complex part.  Do you have to use centre pop marks or something similar in the edge of the narrow strips to establish the necessary gap for the silver solder?

Looking forward to seeing how it performs.

With your upcoming visit to the full size engines, I had better hurry up and put together that post on the pulsation dampeners.  To put some pressure on myself, look for it in the next couple of days.

Amazing how time moves in lockdown.

MJM460
Hi MJM, for the joints where the edges of the raw bar stock edges butt up against another bar, milled surface or not, the raw edges have enough of a radius and are uneven enough along the length that the solder has a place to wick to. For places like the ends, a center punch mark will give the tiny gap needed, like you say. Too tight a joint wont let the solder wick in, and it just pools at the surface of the joint, better to have it flow in. The narrow strips I am using are tool steel bars, with rolled-out shapes that are not hugely precise (tiny-ly precise?) The larger flat bars are ground and the ends are milled, so they fit tight without the center marks.

Looking forward to the dampener discussion. We made miniature versions in our inkjet printers to handle the pulsations in the ink lines from the print head whizzing back and forth with a few gees of acceleration - just the ink liquid in the small feed lines was enough to give large pulsation forces on a large format printer and force ink out or air in the nozzle plates, even though the nozzles were micron sized! On the giant water pumps, scale that up to a 48" diameter water pipe with pump chambers moving hundreds of gallons every few seconds - could have been a huge water hammer effect.  I'm going to be visiting the museum in Boston again soon, going over the Allis engine/pumps with the director of the museum - he is looking forward to learning more, and I get an up-close look at the engines - great for both of us!
Chris
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 17, 2021, 03:04:50 PM
This morning I set up the torch out in the end of the garage, and so far have the first two crosshead guide frames soldered, second one is cooling. Here is the first before it started its swim in a bowl of vinegar to clean up the flux:
(https://i.postimg.cc/14x0vRVH/IMG-9930.jpg)
While parts are colling enough to pull from the jig, I have started milling the slots for those little inside-corner pieces I made several days ago. After the frames are re-assembled for good, these bits can be loctited in place.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sxG9PGxx/IMG-9929.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on August 17, 2021, 04:25:42 PM
Looks like your soldering jig did the trick!  I was worried about how much heat that jig would soak up, but looks like you handled it just fine!
Well done, Chris!
Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on August 17, 2021, 04:57:31 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: (insert gif for 3 bags of peanuts here)   :Lol:

Glad the soldering jig worked well.  :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 17, 2021, 05:22:02 PM
So far so good on the jig, just soldered number 5. The frame parts are a lot thinner than the jig parts so the get up to temp quick, using a medium size tip on the torch with about a 3/4" wide flame. I alternate aim side to side while working my way down the length, melting solder as I go, heating from inside the center gap through the metal. After last one is done the jig will join the frames in the pickle, its getting pretty dirty.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 17, 2021, 11:10:49 PM
Success on the crosshead guides - got all six soldered and cleaned up:
(https://i.postimg.cc/vTL8KMPy/IMG-9933.jpg)
Soaking the jig in the vinegar did it a lot of good too, the screws move freely again, the flux and soot had gummed them up pretty tight by the last one.
(https://i.postimg.cc/KcnYjrmW/IMG-9935.jpg)
So, need to do a notch in the underside of the top rails for the crosshead top cap to fit into, and drill for some mounting screws to hold the guides into the frames. Also need to fit the little corner pieces and get them loctited in place, that will be some fiddly work. After all that is done, and the frames all assembled, will take the light cuts on the faces of the A's to get them to final thickness, which will get rid of the gaps caused by the rounded corners of the square bar stock, and trim the corner pieces to be flush too - right now they hang over slightly. Sounds like the rest of the week is fiddly work, wonder if the elves can dance to fiddle music!  (beat you to that one CNR!! )
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steamer on August 18, 2021, 02:16:02 AM
That's cranking out some work there friend!...BIG engine, on a little mill/lathe!

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: MJM460 on August 18, 2021, 10:46:18 AM
Hi Chris, I expect that hundreds of gallons each few seconds and micron size drops every microsecond might both involve similar accelerations.  However, accelerations due to the print head movements might look quite different to the near sinusoidal motion of the pump plunger.

I expect to post the first section of the pulsation topic later this evening.  It’s far too long for a single post.

Good result on that soldering. 

MJM460

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on August 18, 2021, 12:49:55 PM
Re 'fiddly work' - yes, I concede that my thunder has been stole..... :Lol:

Great looking crosshead guide parts.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 18, 2021, 07:06:36 PM
Don't worry CNR, plenty more chances coming up, I am sure!   :Lol:

I've gotten a good start on the fiddly bits, have 24 of the 36 inside corner pieces fettled and attached, and also the crosshead guides drilled for screws at the bottom plus milled the recesses for the top plates of the guides to fit into the frame top rails. Next up is to lay out and drill the screw holes at the top ends.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZqK57jDQ/IMG-9936.jpg)
They are looking almost done, but I'm only maybe 3/4 done on the frames - Need to make the horizontal braces halfway up the crosshead guides, all the cylinder mounting holes in the top rails to go in, all the mounting plates and holes for the lay shafts and K-frames between the engine frames too, plus thinning the frames.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dan Rowe on August 18, 2021, 08:48:24 PM
Oh man I wish my parts looked that good when they are 3/4 the way done.  :ThumbsUp:

Those are really looking like the real deal.

Cheers Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on August 19, 2021, 12:12:43 AM
Those are looking great, Chris! :popcorn: :popcorn:

They are some pretty complex frame pieces, and all times 6!  You don't pick simple projects, do you, Chris!

Kim

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 19, 2021, 12:22:52 AM
Thanks guys!

This engine didn't look quite so complex when I first saw it, just enormous! This afternoon I got the screw holes all drilled to attach the guide frames, but before I attach them for good I want to lay out and drill/tap the holes in the top horizontal rails that will be used to bolt down the cylinder blocks. Each pair of frames has a different hole pattern since each cylinder is a different size with a different base/valve/piping layout. While going through the LP one, I noticed that the pattern didn't look quite right, and it wasn't! The spacing of the bottom rail on the cylinder was transcribed from the paper blueprints wrong - fixed that right away.

A simpler project day is coming up, a cousin of mine has restored a bunch of old ChrisCraft wood powerboats over the years, and has some levers and such that have broken, no luck finding replacement ones (some are replacements from 30 years ago, that themselves broke). So, I am going to machine out some replacements from solid stainless, with silver soldered joints as needed, and probably will nickel plate them unless he finds a local chome shop that will do them. Pics as those come up, we are working out a day for him to come up and bring the parts and take the shop/museum tour.
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RReid on August 19, 2021, 12:48:21 AM
Quote
This engine didn't look quite so complex when I first saw it,
Well it sure looked complex to me, when I saw your early introductory pictures!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Don1966 on August 19, 2021, 04:35:41 AM
 :Love:


 :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Roger B on August 19, 2021, 06:44:20 PM
So much fine fabrication  :praise2:  :praise2: As ever I struggle to keep up  :wine1:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 19, 2021, 06:57:38 PM
Thanks guys!  I've been plugging away on the frame parts, got the cylinder mount holes all drilled and tapped, working on the last of the corner inserts.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 20, 2021, 05:25:33 PM
All the corner inserts went in yesterday, now have started the facing passes on the frames to get them to final thickness. This also cleans up the little gaps at the edges where the bar stock had rounded corners.
(https://i.postimg.cc/K884bn2M/IMG-9939.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steam guy willy on August 21, 2021, 02:31:13 AM
Hi Chris , good progress with the 'castings' and I love the no compromise way you go about making the parts with all the jigs and forethought you do  :) :)

Willy
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 21, 2021, 01:31:37 PM
Thanks Willy! This one has had me quite busy thinking how to hold/shape things as I go!

Back on the crankshaft joints on the Allis and Holly engines, I did come across this picture showing the connection on the HP cylinder crank on the Allis engine, you can see the square hole and the gaps at the inner/outer ends quite clearly. Also neat to see the way they put the lubricator resevoir on the side of the con-rod, just visible at the top/center of the picture with the lines running down to the bearings.

(https://i.postimg.cc/9FC307pX/IMG-2336.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: kvom on August 21, 2021, 02:25:43 PM
How often did they shut down each of the engines?  Filling those oilers under motion would be tricky.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 21, 2021, 02:34:16 PM
How often did they shut down each of the engines?  Filling those oilers under motion would be tricky.
Yeah, a good trick to play on the new apprentice!  Since they were pumping to a reservoir or water tower, they could shut down periodically.  I took a bunch of pictures when I was there, but now I realize how much I missed, lot more angles to photograph next visit.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dan Rowe on August 21, 2021, 02:35:14 PM
Back on the crankshaft joints on the Allis and Holly engines, I did come across this picture showing the connection on the HP cylinder crank on the Allis engine, you can see the square hole and the gaps at the inner/outer ends quite clearly.

Chris, Nice photo I have to remind myself that the square brass part is 15" square while looking at it. I have been thinking about this and there is a big difference between this type of large engine and large ships engines either steam or diesel that I did not think of.

Large ship engines are built on a bedplate that is a casting or a series of castings bolted together. This gives a very strong and rigid way to attach the main crankshaft bearings. The modern Sulzer engines have a welded bedplate but it is just as strong and rigid.

There are three separate bedplates for the Holly engine and then another three bedplates supported by the lower A-frames that have the main crankshaft bearings. Now, this might be strong but the crankshaft forces have a much longer moment arm or lever to the fixed bedplates.

I think the crankshaft would have to be much stiffer to resist deflection without the drag box which makes the crankshaft two pieces so the bending force is not transmitted through the box joint.

Cheers Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steamer on August 21, 2021, 02:46:26 PM
Chris,   Are you near this engine?     Great photo's ....The build is just epic....that's a big engine on those tools.

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on August 21, 2021, 02:55:47 PM
Great progress Chris, and an interesting pic of the drag box on the Allis.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on August 21, 2021, 02:57:55 PM
...."square hole and the gaps at the inner/outer ends quite clearly"..... :insane:......

Could these be square covers over round pin/bush holes?

Loose square pegs in square holes would be non-rotational or flog  :facepalm: sh*t out of the rotating clearance elements in pretty short time

Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dan Rowe on August 21, 2021, 03:06:16 PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/9FC307pX/IMG-2336.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/MKjScRfg/Crank-Drag-Box2.jpg)

(https://i.postimg.cc/1t5S4jDK/Crank-Drag-Box.jpg)
So, anyone out there who can give a good explanation of what this feature is all about? Free shop gnomes to anyone who does.  Whats that? Oh, okay, free shop gnome capture and removal then!!

Derek here are the drawings to go with the photo.

Cheers Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 21, 2021, 03:29:59 PM
Chris,   Are you near this engine?     Great photo's ....The build is just epic....that's a big engine on those tools.

Dave
For the Holly engine in Buffalo, I'm only an hour away. Normally they had arranged for tours open to the public once a year. But, covid ended that last year, and since then the man who arranged things with the water authority (who own the place) has passed away, so they are not sure what will happen next time we are not in pandemic situation. I've been in contact with the guy who got me the plans, and he will let me know next time there is an open house. So far I've only been able to get in to se the Holly engines once.  I was really lucky on the Marion shovel, that is only 15 minutes away. Once I knew it was there, at least!


For the Boston, Allis, engine, near-ish - its a six hour drive from home to Boston. I have a couple more trips to Maine ( two states north of Boston) this summer/fall, and I have arranged with the museum director to stop in on my next trip by to visit the engine again, he is going to take me down to the pump level and up the top catwalks too, which will be an amazing treat. Part sightseeing for me, part tutorial on steam engines for him, we both win.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 21, 2021, 03:33:26 PM
Back on the crankshaft joints on the Allis and Holly engines, I did come across this picture showing the connection on the HP cylinder crank on the Allis engine, you can see the square hole and the gaps at the inner/outer ends quite clearly.

Chris, Nice photo I have to remind myself that the square brass part is 15" square while looking at it. I have been thinking about this and there is a big difference between this type of large engine and large ships engines either steam or diesel that I did not think of.

Large ship engines are built on a bedplate that is a casting or a series of castings bolted together. This gives a very strong and rigid way to attach the main crankshaft bearings. The modern Sulzer engines have a welded bedplate but it is just as strong and rigid.

There are three separate bedplates for the Holly engine and then another three bedplates supported by the lower A-frames that have the main crankshaft bearings. Now, this might be strong but the crankshaft forces have a much longer moment arm or lever to the fixed bedplates.

I think the crankshaft would have to be much stiffer to resist deflection without the drag box which makes the crankshaft two pieces so the bending force is not transmitted through the box joint.

Cheers Dan
Giving the joints some compliance without metal fatigue is about the only thing that makes sense to me too.
For clarity, the picture I have of that joint is of the HP crank, which is smaller than the IP crank in the middle. On the end cranks, the inset square is only 6" x 6.5" across, and the pin is smaller too. They would be open cranks on the ends, but they have a smaller cranks outboard of both the end pistons that drive the lay shaft. The drawing I posted was for the center crank with the 15" box.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 21, 2021, 03:35:22 PM
...."square hole and the gaps at the inner/outer ends quite clearly"..... :insane: ......

Could these be square covers over round pin/bush holes?

Loose square pegs in square holes would be non-rotational or flog  :facepalm: sh*t out of the rotating clearance elements in pretty short time

Derek
No - see the drawings in the post three posts back that Dan re-showed from a post I did last week - it shows the internals of the joint, on one half of the crank web set its definitely a seperate moveable piece, with gaps in the inner/outer faces so it can move. That is for the Allis engine, and I have found the same setup in the Holly engine too. The box fits snug in the rotation direction, but is loose in the other direction, so it does not bounce like a loose dog clutch could.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 21, 2021, 06:15:51 PM
Okey dokey - all of the faces of the frames and the crosshead guides have been trimmed to final thickness - not a lot to take off, but it does change the appearance to not have the cross section be square anymore.
(https://i.postimg.cc/pT0gS24N/IMG-9940.jpg)
So, looks like all the frames are done, right.  NOPE! Next up will be the horizontal braces that go from the frame side rails to the middle of the crosshead guides. These braces have a '+' shaped cross section. To start, I need to make up a length of + shaped rail from some 3/8" square bar. I didn't happen to have any already stress relieved 3/8" square handy, so I am milling the shape out about 1" at a time, alternating corners, to eliminate the tendancy for bar stock to banana-ize as one side is milled away. Using a small end mill, set to depth of cut, am cutting on the back corner every pass, rotating the bar to alternate corners between cuts. Here it is after one set of passes all the way around:
(https://i.postimg.cc/RhNj5kxW/IMG-9941.jpg)
and after almost three sets of passes
(https://i.postimg.cc/tJw8XB92/IMG-9942.jpg)
Four more sets of passes and I'll have enough bar for all the cross (pun) braces - they look pretty short, but 12 braces 1/2" long plu cutting room add up.
I've also been looking at the pads for the other brackets and horizontal frame pieces, and have worked out how those will be added once these braces are in....
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 21, 2021, 08:05:03 PM
So, today's shop time is brought to you by the '+' symbol, though this manufacturing method is subtractive rather than additive, the end result adds up to the same thing....    :Lol:
Got the full bar taken down to shape...
(https://i.postimg.cc/63LmsBP6/IMG-9944.jpg)
Here the end of it is held up next to where each short length will go on the frames, the very end will need to be notched to fit over the center web bar, and the other end cut at an angle to fit against the side rail. Making up a dozen of those will get a bit tedious, but should not take too long. I hope!  I was thinking of using a 1/16" end mill for the slots in the end, but now am thinking that setting up a slitting saw will be quicker per cut.... Have to make a test.

(https://i.postimg.cc/0QqBHzcH/IMG-9943.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RReid on August 21, 2021, 08:19:31 PM
++++ :ThumbsUp: ++++
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 21, 2021, 10:35:23 PM
Did some digging through the toolbox drawers and found a perfect little saw blade, 1/16" thick like the crosshead side bars. Did a test cut with it on the end of the + bar, cuts nice and smooth. Always feel nervous with an exposed circular saw blad like this, even a small one, more so than an end mill for whatever reason. Anyway, cuts the brass like butter, nice clean edges.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Jn5KtPMR/IMG-9946.jpg)
test fit with a bit of the bar stock - loose fit but good enough!
(https://i.postimg.cc/Wzp8Zg1g/IMG-9945.jpg)
Holding it like that in the vise makes for a very repeatable setup for height, holding one of the edges sticking out is very secure. Think I'll cut ends this this, hand cut the length and leave it slightly long, then set up an angle block to trim them all the proper length and angle.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steamer on August 21, 2021, 11:31:43 PM
Chris,   Are you near this engine?     Great photo's ....The build is just epic....that's a big engine on those tools.

Dave
For the Holly engine in Buffalo, I'm only an hour away. Normally they had arranged for tours open to the public once a year. But, covid ended that last year, and since then the man who arranged things with the water authority (who own the place) has passed away, so they are not sure what will happen next time we are not in pandemic situation. I've been in contact with the guy who got me the plans, and he will let me know next time there is an open house. So far I've only been able to get in to se the Holly engines once.  I was really lucky on the Marion shovel, that is only 15 minutes away. Once I knew it was there, at least!


For the Boston, Allis, engine, near-ish - its a six hour drive from home to Boston. I have a couple more trips to Maine ( two states north of Boston) this summer/fall, and I have arranged with the museum director to stop in on my next trip by to visit the engine again, he is going to take me down to the pump level and up the top catwalks too, which will be an amazing treat. Part sightseeing for me, part tutorial on steam engines for him, we both win.

Next time you're coming down Rt 2 east on your way there....as long as the pandemic is "under control" I'd be glad to come with you!


Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: derekwarner on August 21, 2021, 11:58:40 PM
Square pegs in square holes ... certainly unique  :headscratch:

......do the 2" UN hex head bolts hold spigoted spacers which in turn hold these two x 4" squarish x 15"/16" long  brass blocks have  :hammerbash: and what sort of end clearance in the 16" cavity?

Derek
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dan Rowe on August 22, 2021, 12:17:42 AM
Derek the 2" bolt secures a round plate to the crankpin. This plate holds the 15" square brass bearing in place. the section you are pointing at is a 4" wide sections cut from the center of the brass block cut at a 45 degree angle so the center of the brass block is an octagon.

Cheers Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 22, 2021, 01:05:39 AM
Hey all,
I just got a PM from a new member here on the forum, with a link to this page from October 1900 issue of Steam Engineering: A Practical Journal for the Power Plant, Volume 2 on Google Books:

(https://i.postimg.cc/Y9t21CKQ/Drag-Box-Explanation.jpg)
This is in a Questions and Answers section of that publication, here is a link to the full issue:
https://books.google.com/books?id=hYnmAAAAMAAJ&pg=PP11&lpg=PP11&dq=%22drag+box%22+steam+pump&source=bl&ots=6yJJyklE-J&sig=ACfU3U2GMk-xihwFCm6JOFfboiU2t30V3g&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwilhI20n8PyAhWXQs0KHXh5CkoQ6AF6BAgrEAM#v=onepage&q=%22drag%20box%22%20steam%20pump&f=false


A great find - many thanks to that forum member! Please chime in and introduce yourself, its a great group.   :cheers: :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steamer on August 22, 2021, 01:10:17 AM
That's cool!   Engine with a U joint in the middle
sorta

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 22, 2021, 01:21:12 AM
Another page from that same book, this time about force chambers, which we have been discussing as well...
(https://i.postimg.cc/fTyccwM4/Force-Chamber-Book.jpg)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 22, 2021, 01:21:45 AM
That's cool!   Engine with a U joint in the middle
sorta

Dave
Well, sorta, with a VERY small travel!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dan Rowe on August 22, 2021, 01:27:27 AM
Nice find thanks to the gent who found it.

Speaking of hot bearings on vintage large engines.... well the only way to detect the bearing temperature on the engine was to touch the bearing!!! Notice the missing paint on the vertical rail support near the main bearing, just where you would hang on to touch the bearing.

The big end bearing of the conrod was checked by touching it as it passed by to check for a hot bearing. Needless to say, this was somewhat dangerous and more than one engineer was missing a finger or two.

Cheers Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 22, 2021, 01:47:16 AM
Nice find thanks to the gent who found it.

Speaking of hot bearings on vintage large engines.... well the only way to detect the bearing temperature on the engine was to touch the bearing!!! Notice the missing paint on the vertical rail support near the main bearing, just where you would hang on to touch the bearing.

The big end bearing of the conrod was checked by touching it as it passed by to check for a hot bearing. Needless to say, this was somewhat dangerous and more than one engineer was missing a finger or two.

Cheers Dan
Lets see, grab railing, lean over, touch bearing, burn hand, grab that hand with other one, losing grip on railing, fall into the crankshaft....   :o
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Dan Rowe on August 22, 2021, 02:01:34 AM
Chris, yes not a good outcome. This was a common practice on ships so the extra challenge of the deck moving.

I had one Chief that was missing both his middle fingers on one hand. He was not the sharpest knife in the drawer he told me to pack a petcock because it was leaking.....

Cheers Dan
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on August 22, 2021, 02:51:35 AM
Great that the info on the drag boxes and the pulse damper/ force chambers came to light. Many thanks to the member that sent it to Chris, and to Chris for posting!  :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 22, 2021, 03:01:59 PM
That little saw made quick work of trimming the + bar to length too. I hacksaw cut the full bar to pieces a little longer than needed for pairs of the finished pieces, slit the ends to fit over the guide rails, then set up the mini vise at an angle to trim the bars to length and cut the angle in - the bars slid into the side of the vise till they touched bottom of the jaws, so the position was repeatable.
Partway through a cut
(https://i.postimg.cc/6pghmpdZ/IMG-9949.jpg)
finished cut
(https://i.postimg.cc/dtW6GB34/IMG-9947.jpg)
and two of them slipped into place on a frame - will use a drop of loctite 638 on each to hold them in place, these are not under tension so they just need a little glue to hold them in place. In the picture, they are just slipped on, so the angles are not even.
(https://i.postimg.cc/g2nDsZ6d/IMG-9948.jpg)
After lunch I'll get them glued in, and can start cutting down stock for all the mounting pads that go on the faces of the frames for the lay shaft and K-frame brackets.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on August 22, 2021, 04:02:04 PM
Parts are looking great Chris. Hard to b eat the slitting saw for that sort of job - but you are right, you have to watch your fingers! I usually throw a thick rag around the teeth of mine if I have fingers near the teeth to move the stock. Shop time is scarce enough without using some time for first aid / leakage stopping!  :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 22, 2021, 07:22:07 PM
Got a start on the pads that will go on the faces of the engine frames - on the real ones these were cast in, I'm adding them on to mimic the look without having to mill off so much from the raw bar stock. There are three round pads that hold the lay shaft support bearings, three will be part of the bearings brackets themselves, but while I'm set up for that hole circle, best to drill them all. Also a pair for the lay shaft drive-shaft that comes up from the crankshaft. So, turned some stainless to diameter, and drilled the holes on the rotab
(https://i.postimg.cc/k5GCMwZ8/IMG-9950.jpg)
then parted them off. A little file cleanup on the parted faces is needed, and the sides of the discs away from the holes will get milled off flat - the center of the discs will be near the edge of the frame, and trimmed to be flush.
(https://i.postimg.cc/wBrp1L8r/IMG-9951.jpg)



Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 23, 2021, 08:27:50 PM
Got the pads cut and drilled for the other mounting points on the engine frames. These ones are for the main supports of the lay shaft:

(https://i.postimg.cc/NfKWsrSn/IMG-9952.jpg)
and these are for the K-shaped frames that go between the pairs of engine frames on both sides. They are all same outer shape, but the upper and lower sets have the holes in different places.
(https://i.postimg.cc/kG4LtV4B/IMG-9953.jpg)
With all the pads cut and drilled, started with attaching the lay shaft frame holders. Took a while with the plans to lay out which pad goes on which side of which frame, they are all different. The tall pads were measured out and clamped in place on the frames for drilling and tapping. The plates have the tap-size hole in them already, so they were used as drill guides for the frames.

(https://i.postimg.cc/28ggVSfS/IMG-9954.jpg)
Tapping was done through both pieces at once, so the plates are threaded as well.
(https://i.postimg.cc/BZYrfCYD/IMG-9956.jpg)
Was about to start laying out the other pads, when I realized that I had not yet drilled the 1-72 holes in the tops of the frames for the brackets that hold the upper catwalks around the cylinders. So, started doing those instead before I forget again.
(https://i.postimg.cc/rsP3G80g/IMG-9957.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on August 23, 2021, 09:06:32 PM
Great looking frame detail parts Chris!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 24, 2021, 08:08:10 PM
Thanks CNR!  Almost ready for final detailing and paint...

Got the pads for the lay shaft bearings and drive shaft bracket bolted on and all the holes drilled/tapped, again using the plates as drill guides into the rails.
(https://i.postimg.cc/fTz9gyMq/IMG-9959.jpg)
then milled off the overhangs - the larger discs taken off in a straight line at the edge of the rails, the one smaller one followed the countour of the catwalk bracket
(https://i.postimg.cc/Kv0MXbzG/IMG-9960.jpg)
then laid out and drilled the holes for the K-frames, these are just through-drilled clearance size, the K-frames will be tapped at the top and have a nut at the bottom.
(https://i.postimg.cc/wxcNVLYs/IMG-9961.jpg)
Last step on the frames will be to add a little filler in any gaps, sand, and a coat of paint! A long process for these frames.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RReid on August 24, 2021, 08:30:09 PM
Quote
A long process for these frames.
To badly paraphrase a well known aphorism - You're about to see the light at the top of the tower!

Then you can take pride in another job well done and a big step forward in the larger job. :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 24, 2021, 09:08:03 PM
Quote
A long process for these frames.
To badly paraphrase a well known aphorism - You're about to see the light at the top of the tower!

Then you can take pride in another job well done and a big step forward in the larger job. :cheers:


 :cheers:   
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Admiral_dk on August 24, 2021, 10:15:52 PM
Chris you mention that you are almost ready for painting those - but I must admit that I thought that the guide part in the middle should be worked on in the mill to ensure a flat even surface on those ...?

Per
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 24, 2021, 10:37:08 PM
Chris you mention that you are almost ready for painting those - but I must admit that I thought that the guide part in the middle should be worked on in the mill to ensure a flat even surface on those ...?

Per
Hi Per,


The wide flat pieces that make the sides of the guides were made from ground flat bar stock, much more even than the usual rolled bar. The soldering jig ensured that they were held parallel too. At most they should need a little polishing or lapping with the crossheads. At least that's what I am hoping!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 25, 2021, 03:21:57 PM
And after some sanding/filling in a few sports, painting, and paint cure time overnight, we have the next 'floor' up on the Holly 'building'!    And yes, the tops of each pair of frames are different widths and hole pattern, that is to match the different size compound cylinder bases that will go on top. There is another 4-3/4" of height to the final top 'floor'. Um, all you guys ARE coming over to help move this thing when its done, right?!

(https://i.postimg.cc/MK7yv6B0/IMG-9969.jpg)
 :whoohoo:
The tops of the frames are nicely aligned, all fits well.
(https://i.postimg.cc/T3QgJtCp/IMG-9965.jpg)
And naturally the shop elves did their best King Kong impressions while climbing up the Empire Pump Building, looking for biplanes to swat...
(https://i.postimg.cc/g0JRS3T4/IMG-9968.jpg)
Next up will be the K-frames, which go between the pairs on each side. They can be seen in this picture, the 'K' shapes lying on their sides up near the tops of the frames. I see another jig to make...
(https://i.postimg.cc/fbZ7gqKv/Engine-Frames-View.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Mcgyver on August 25, 2021, 03:35:47 PM
that looks great Chris!  It's really coming along
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: RReid on August 25, 2021, 03:44:46 PM
After you add the penthouse apartment floor at the top for the elves, will it still fit through that door?
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 25, 2021, 03:49:37 PM
After you add the penthouse apartment floor at the top for the elves, will it still fit through that door?
They prefer a nest like squirrels make, but they use steel wool rather than leaves.   :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 25, 2021, 03:51:19 PM
that looks great Chris!  It's really coming along


 :cheers:   This is one of those times when the appearance changes all at once! Good time to sit back and admire before making the next parts!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on August 25, 2021, 05:12:59 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

>>>>>>>>>>>BAD PUN ALERT<<<<<<<<<<WOOT WOOT WOOT>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Be sure and post some photos of those next parts, K?  (sorry) :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 25, 2021, 05:21:52 PM
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

>>>>>>>>>>>BAD PUN ALERT<<<<<<<<<<WOOT WOOT WOOT>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Be sure and post some photos of those next parts, K?  (sorry) :Lol:
Angry nasty hungry mean shop gnome launching CNR's way now off the gnome-apult....   TWANG!!      Splat!  Oooops, tree....   :LittleDevil:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steamer on August 25, 2021, 05:46:35 PM
That's looking amazing Chris!   Are you going to steam her or just air?.   That isana.Zingly large engine with Sherline equipment!!!!! :cheers: :AllHailTheKing: :popcornsmall:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 25, 2021, 06:01:57 PM
That's looking amazing Chris!   Are you going to steam her or just air?.   That isana.Zingly large engine with Sherline equipment!!!!! :cheers: :AllHailTheKing: :popcornsmall:
I don't have a boiler that would be suitable for this engine, unless I tapped into the Lombard or Mann engine. Am planning just to run it on compressed air. I'll hide air lines direct to the other two cylinders, with needle valves to balance the flows, in the receiver tanks between the cylinders. To keep it looking interesting I may leave off some or all of the lagging on the cylinder level, it makes the engine look like an apartment block (for elves) with all the lagging panels in place. These engines ran slow, in the 12 to 20 rpm range, so hopefully with the large flywheels it will purr along.

The cylinder blocks are going to be interesting to make on the Sherlines, have found some automotive cylinder liners that I will use for the core of the IP and LP cylinders, which would otherwise be tough to turn on a 3" lathe (LP piston is 3" diameter). Thinking of stacking up some plate stock to form the outer jacket for the cylinders, the top/bottom sections were made seperately anyway, with the valves inside them - Corliss on HP/IP, poppet on LP. Thats a ways off though!  Maybe by then I'll find a 1" cylinder liner that will work, have not found one long enough yet, 2-3/8",  without ports in the side. That one could be turned normally though.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steamer on August 25, 2021, 06:17:43 PM
Well...if a certain 9 or 12 lathe needs to be used...let me know....I know a guy..... 8)
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steamer on August 25, 2021, 06:22:53 PM
Even if it's to create some "castings".....everything roughed out and you finish it on the Sherline.   
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on August 25, 2021, 06:47:36 PM
That skyscraper is looking amazing, Chris!  :popcorn: :popcorn:

Yeah, I'll be over to help you move it  ;D

Kim
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 25, 2021, 09:10:35 PM
Well...if a certain 9 or 12 lathe needs to be used...let me know....I know a guy..... 8)
Isn't the old movie quote something like 'I know a guy who knows a guy who killed a guy...' ?   :Lol:

A friend of mine with a small manufacturing business locally has a humongo lathe, it can take 18" parts through the headstock, which means he could chuck up my lathe and mill, has offered its use anytime for turning/shaping large parts, though I'd be looking around on the cross slide asking 'wheres the lathe?' !! My lathe got carried down the hall to the shop room. His got delivered by huge truck and a crew of riggers - wish I had pictures of it going in!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 26, 2021, 02:48:38 PM
The Holly build is going to be on hold for several days, my cousin is bringing over some fittings from one of the old mahogany Chris-Craft powerboats he has that need to be remade. Castings that metal fatigued and broke, no replacements available, so I am going to duplicate in stainless bar stock. Will be back on the Holly sometime next week.


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: ShopShoe on August 26, 2021, 03:02:31 PM
I'd be interested in some posts about that process. I'm sure you'll do it creatively, artistically, well-engineeredly, and fast.

But I don't want you to waste time away from the Holly, either, I'm spellbound following that......

ShopShoe
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: propforward on August 29, 2021, 07:29:42 PM
Good heavens! I've not been on the forum so much lately, so I'm just getting caught up with builds, and I had 4 pages to get through on this one - absolutely amazing - really great to see those frames come together. Brilliant techniques, and the result just speaks for itself. Top shelf as always!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 31, 2021, 01:58:53 AM
Thanks Propforward!!


Turns out my cousin had to reschedule the drop-off for the boat parts, nothing done on that yet.


I just got back from a trip to Boston and Maine, stories, pictures and videos tomorrow. Small hint, think giant steam pumping engines, steam powered cars, lighthouses, and views of Canada.  That should keep you scratching heads till tomorrow!!   :headscratch:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on August 31, 2021, 05:35:57 PM
Canada itself was pretty steamy last week, let alone any pumping engines or cars. Head being scratched as we speak. :Lol:

sounds like you had an interesting trip! :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 31, 2021, 05:43:18 PM
Canada itself was pretty steamy last week, let alone any pumping engines or cars. Head being scratched as we speak. :Lol:

sounds like you had an interesting trip! :cheers:
The temperatures were in mid 90's when I left home in upstate NY, by the time I got to Maine it was low 70s. On Monday though, even Maine was a steambath!
Getting pics and videos loaded up now...
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Roger B on August 31, 2021, 05:46:04 PM
I'm still following and enjoying  :praise2:  :praise2:  :wine1: Your pause will allow me to catch up properly. That slitting saw looks quite vicious   ::) Do you get much chatter with the widely spaced teeth?
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 31, 2021, 06:21:47 PM
So, its been a really fun long weekend - I went up and spent the afternoon Friday at the Waterworks Museum in Boston, where they have several huge old steam powered pumping engines. Then, on up to the Logging Museum in Maine, where I spent several nights staying in the museum caretakers house out in the woods (about 1-1/2 miles to nearest road), a very quiet spot in the middle of the museum. On Saturday, several of the museum people and I went over to Kingfield Maine to the Stanley Museum where they got out three of the Stanley steam cars, and took us all out for the afternoon in them. Very exciting - I've never even seen one run before, let alone ride in one! On Sunday I took a drive way up to the northern end of the Maine coast to Lubec, also hitting the Quoddy lighthouse at the easternmost point in the continental US. Monday down to Fort Knox (no, not the one with the gold and the Bond villains, this one is an early coastal defense fort) and also the Penobscot Narrows cable stay bridge. Quite a fun weekend!

So, time for some photos and videos. Here is a compilation of clips that I put together at the Stanley run (a little long)

-y34iUjB8ZgAnd a set of pictures from the Stanley day:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/26BXUuw5jSTm6j46A (https://photos.app.goo.gl/26BXUuw5jSTm6j46A)
For the short version, here are the three cars we rode in:
(https://i.postimg.cc/59mPsVy9/IMG-2777.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/tgPkW08j/IMG-2790.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/5NNsGRQB/IMG-2820.jpg)
Here is what the engine from one looks like, two cylinder with reverse, directly geared to the rear axle with no changeable gears, capable of speeds in the 40 to 70mph range (we got up about 40 max, mostly we were on side roads). This is like the model engine that I built.

(https://i.postimg.cc/J46pW5j9/IMG-2785.jpg)
This is the boiler under the hood
(https://i.postimg.cc/7ZjX5Ps9/IMG-2816a.jpg)
and what it looks like inside - outer cylinder is wrapped in 3 layers of piano wire so they could use thinner metal and make it light weight. It runs at up to 600 psi. Many vertical firetubes, low water volume, has a kerosene burner.
(https://i.postimg.cc/SKN8QBqd/IMG-2800.jpg)
All it needs is a driver!

(https://i.postimg.cc/zGy0DHj3/IMG-2836a.jpg)
And no, I did not get to drive, it takes a bit of training to operate these, lots of controls! Did get to spend several hours out riding around in them though.

(https://i.postimg.cc/SxGChS0j/IMG-2775.jpg)

As for the waterworks museum, it has several engines including this huge Allis triple pumping engine - pumps are under the floor:
(https://i.postimg.cc/50XCL8XF/IMG-2294a.jpg)
The director there gave me free access all up and down the engines, from the pumps in the lower level up to the top catwalks. We spent hours going over the engine, he took lots of notes on how things worked and I got lots of detail photos and a chance to climb around. I found a number of details that I had missed on the plans, and explained a number of things that they did not know about.
Even spotted the boiler feedwater pump over on one wall in the lower level, same type as used on a locomotive - they had been wondering what it was.

Fascinating to see the pumps down on the lower level in person, very helpful for completing the 3D CAD model I am drawing up based on the original blueprints he gave me. Unfortunately the plans for the other engines there were lost years ago in a building collapse.
(https://i.postimg.cc/RFt0vd3G/IMG-2587a.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/RCc08PxZ/IMG-2658a.jpg)
They have a pair of spare beehives for the check valve plates - there are patterns of these on the check valve plates inside the pumps on both the intake and output sides of the pumps - 1520 individual valves altogether. The round discs are hard rubber, spring loaded. That beehive is almost 2' tall, quite heavy, the pump chambers have lifting cranes built into the sides.
(https://i.postimg.cc/zvSXgfFg/IMG-2666a.jpg)
From there we worked our way all the way up all the levels of the engine, till we were standing on the top, 60' up from the base
(https://i.postimg.cc/NFwjFXmt/IMG-2712a.jpg)
Along the way got a lot of detail pictures of things like the governor and valve assemblies, will be useful on the CAD model since the plans show all the pieces but not much on how they go together!
(https://i.postimg.cc/GhKm3H20/IMG-2688a.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/jdtjrzRQ/IMG-2706a.jpg)
One thing he pointed out was the damage on the valve guides for the poppet valves on the LP cylinder (most are Corliss, the IP exhaust and all LP are poppet)
(https://i.postimg.cc/bwvNZpDZ/IMG-2699a.jpg)
You can see the broken piece at the bottom center of the curved part - looks like it metal fatigued the cast iron and cracked. Some were worse than this, and had been repaired at some point with a bolted on surrounding piece. These engines ran from late 1800s till 1970.

At the logging museum, this was my front yard - mist is coming off the mill creek early in the morning:
(https://i.postimg.cc/dt5JPpHw/IMG-2751a.jpg)
and I just had to stop in and see my favorite machines, the herd of Lombards in the machinery hall:
(https://i.postimg.cc/HLymMxpk/IMG-2985a.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/XYX4VLmF/IMG-2986a.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/bwM8dbf5/IMG-2988a.jpg)
Lubec is a very pretty little town on the border of Canada. This lighthouse is on the Candian side:
(https://i.postimg.cc/nzfJGJzY/IMG-2914a.jpg)
Lots of lobstering there:
(https://i.postimg.cc/C5Fp9sbR/IMG-2919a.jpg)
Quite tall pilings, the tide is over 15 feet
(https://i.postimg.cc/4dvT8SHC/IMG-2923a.jpg)
Just down the coast is the Quoddy lighthouse, easternmost in the US
(https://i.postimg.cc/1RHQwbZw/IMG-2949a.jpg)
Fort Knox (the Maine one) is a large coastal defense fort from early 1800s
(https://i.postimg.cc/8zFg85fm/IMG-3057a.jpg)
Great overview of it from the top of the cable stay bridge there, it has an observation deck (with elevator, fortunately) that is 420 feet up
(https://i.postimg.cc/XYTSnbwS/IMG-3078a.jpg)
The bridge from below
(https://i.postimg.cc/J4YCdJ0h/IMG-3083a.jpg)



Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 31, 2021, 06:24:06 PM
I'm still following and enjoying  :praise2: :praise2: :wine1: Your pause will allow me to catch up properly. That slitting saw looks quite vicious   ::) Do you get much chatter with the widely spaced teeth?
That saw is a fairly small diameter, a little smaller than the gear cutters, so the teeth are not that far apart, and its quite rigid, its 1/16" thick. Using it in brass it cuts very clean and smooth, no chatter. I used a medium speed and fed slow - it threw off fine powdery chips.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Roger B on August 31, 2021, 06:46:36 PM
What a splendid trip  :)  :)  :)  :wine1:

Ah, so the teeth are smaller than I thought, scale is always difficult to perceive  :headscratch:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 31, 2021, 06:50:18 PM
What a splendid trip  :) :) :) :wine1:

Ah, so the teeth are smaller than I thought, scale is always difficult to perceive  :headscratch:
Just measured, its 2" diameter, 1/8" long teeth. Still aggressive, but it cuts great. If it was thinner I think it would flex.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Kim on August 31, 2021, 06:52:29 PM
Wow!  That was some action-packed trip!  The ride in the Stanly Steamers is pretty unique.  I'll bee not many people get that opportunity!  I know I haven't.  Not to mention the personal 1 on 1 tour of the Allis pumping engines.  And the night stay at the logging museum.  You really had a lot of great and special opportunities there, Chris!

Thanks for sharing them with us!
Kim

PS - See? Just like work - you go on a trip and have to give a trip report when you get back!  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: Roger B on August 31, 2021, 07:13:30 PM
My thing is to have actually driven a Sentinel Steam Wagon  :)  :) I was warned not to rely on the steam brake cylinder as it took a while to warm up, stop condensing the steam and apply pressure to the brake linings. At the same transport festival ( Crich Tramway museum) I was also challenged to drive a double decker bus (Bristol FLF driver trainer) up the quarry and back, the first time using the clutch to change gear, the second time without the clutch, each crunch was a pint to the owner   :) :wine1: :old:

https://www.tramway.co.uk/
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 31, 2021, 11:05:15 PM
My thing is to have actually driven a Sentinel Steam Wagon  :) :) I was warned not to rely on the steam brake cylinder as it took a while to warm up, stop condensing the steam and apply pressure to the brake linings. At the same transport festival ( Crich Tramway museum) I was also challenged to drive a double decker bus (Bristol FLF driver trainer) up the quarry and back, the first time using the clutch to change gear, the second time without the clutch, each crunch was a pint to the owner   :) :wine1: :old:

https://www.tramway.co.uk/ (https://www.tramway.co.uk/)
Great site!

The head of the Stanley museum, Susan, was very interested to see the Mann Wagon model - she had a chance to drive a Sentinel at an event in New Hampshire once.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on August 31, 2021, 11:17:44 PM
Oh, and while touring around the Leavitt engine at the waterworks museum, we came across that worm gear that was mentioned much earlier in this thread by Sid:
(https://i.postimg.cc/7PN0T1Yb/Levitt-Engine-Gear.jpg)
I explained to the director about how worm gears work, and how it would not be possible for the flywheel to get the worm gear to turn to drive something else as Sid's tour guide claimed. He remembered back when the engine was put of for Landmark status, they had an event where the engine was turned over by a small motor for a demonstration - this worm gear is likely the remnant of that event. I could tell that the stand it is on was a home-made addition, and the gear put into the barring holes IS in mesh but there is no provision for swinging it out of the way other than removing the bolts in the stand. The metal bar is quite lightweight, and would never stand up to actual engine speeds regardless. The Leavitt engine ran at 60 RPM, which along with its odd off-center design (so that it would fit the existing building) was most of the reason it broke down so much. Now, this is the Leavitt engine in Boston, same building but different engine than the Allis that I've been showing other pictures of.Also on the Leavitt, it was mentioned about what looks like a ships steering wheel up at the valve eccentrics next to the lay shaft. While there I was able to follow the control linkages and the gearing, and determine that it was put in to be the barring method - it has a bevel gear reduction set that connects to the lay shaft, with a lever with dog clutch to engage it when desired. That wheel would give a large gear reduction to the lay shaft, which itself is directly geared to the crankshaft, to allow them to turn the engine by hand for starting - it would only take a small turn angle on the crankshaft to get it off of a top/bottom dead center condition on the HP cylinder to allow it to self start. There are barring holes on the flywheel, but the only place that you could put a long lever in to use them is obstructed by one of the catwalk support poles!



Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on September 01, 2021, 12:28:42 AM
Great pics Chris! looks like an excellent trip and a lot of fun. Thanks for posting the photos.  :cheers:

oh, when looking across at Canada, did you have a sudden urge to eat poutine or a peameal/back bacon sandwich, wear a toque, and add the saying "eh?" to every sentence? Or compare snowmobile specs with your neighbour? No? maybe you weren't lookin long enough, eh?  :Lol:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 01, 2021, 12:57:29 AM
Great pics Chris! looks like an excellent trip and a lot of fun. Thanks for posting the photos.  :cheers:

oh, when looking across at Canada, did you have a sudden urge to eat poutine or a peameal/back bacon sandwich, wear a toque, and add the saying "eh?" to every sentence? Or compare snowmobile specs with your neighbour? No? maybe you weren't lookin long enough, eh?  :Lol:
I was wearing a baseball cap and went for some fried Haddock, not close enough, eh?





I am having Red Green show flashbacks, eh?  Toss me another brewski! Keep yer stick on the ice!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steamer on September 01, 2021, 01:18:00 AM
Hey Chris

The barring engine, or wheel in this case, wasn't used to get the engine off dead center....They would use starting valves for that  which were live steam fed manually into the either the IP or LP cylinder when the engine was on HP TDC or BDC..      but a good engineer would never stop it there....but thats something else

The Barring engine or wheel was used to push condensate out of cylinders without starting the engine.  This would allow the condensate to exit the condensate valves slow enough to not hammer the cylinder heads and blow them off.   

We would do this to good effect on Sabino when she was started cold, and the 750 HP tug engine when we got it running.

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 01, 2021, 01:44:40 AM
Hey Chris

The barring engine, or wheel in this case, wasn't used to get the engine off dead center....They would use starting valves for that  which were live steam fed manually into the either the IP or LP cylinder when the engine was on HP TDC or BDC..      but a good engineer would never stop it there....but thats something else

The Barring engine or wheel was used to push condensate out of cylinders without starting the engine.  This would allow the condensate to exit the condensate valves slow enough to not hammer the cylinder heads and blow them off.   

We would do this to good effect on Sabino when she was started cold, and the 750 HP tug engine when we got it running.

Dave


Ah!  Great info! Will add that to my somewhat porous info bank!


A cylinder drain at the bottom of a vertical cylinder could drain that end, but I never thought about the upper end, or would it need turning to get both ends cleared? So it would be barred around at least a full turn?

I recall seeing drains on the receivers between the cylinders on the big pumping engines, lots could condense there too.

On the Lombard we would run a short time with the drains open when starting, thats on a horizontal engine.
 :cheers:   :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steamer on September 01, 2021, 02:02:42 AM
Hey Chris

The barring engine, or wheel in this case, wasn't used to get the engine off dead center....They would use starting valves for that  which were live steam fed manually into the either the IP or LP cylinder when the engine was on HP TDC or BDC..      but a good engineer would never stop it there....but thats something else

The Barring engine or wheel was used to push condensate out of cylinders without starting the engine.  This would allow the condensate to exit the condensate valves slow enough to not hammer the cylinder heads and blow them off.   

We would do this to good effect on Sabino when she was started cold, and the 750 HP tug engine when we got it running.

Dave


Ah!  Great info! Will add that to my somewhat porous info bank!


A cylinder drain at the bottom of a vertical cylinder could drain that end, but I never thought about the upper end, or would it need turning to get both ends cleared? So it would be barred around at least a full turn?

I recall seeing drains on the receivers between the cylinders on the big pumping engines, lots could condense there too.

On the Lombard we would run a short time with the drains open when starting, thats on a horizontal engine.
 :cheers:   :cheers:

Yes to all of the above......my little engine has top and bottom cylinder drains, and 2 receiver drains....and it needed it!

On Sabino....you bar it through 1 full turn,  ( with a crow bar specifically made for the notches in the flywheel)  then let it sit and warm up with full link, steam to the  LP from the starting valve, and the throttle cracked......let it sit  there still for 5 minutes, then throw the link into astern and do the same...... THEN!

Clear the BDC of the HP without the LP going to TDC......( Cranks are at 90 degrees)   then slowly clear the HP TDC without the LP going to TDC   Close the HP condensate drains.....now with some throttle,  The wet air pump started, and just using the link...bump the LP slowly and carefully through TDC,,,,  ( Bottom gets cleared with the wet air pump on it's own)....and once through let it run slowly, leaving the LP condensate valves open....close the receiver drain, close the starting valve...let her run in astern for 5-10 minutes.   She'll be ready to answer the astern bell to pull out of the slip.

The Tug engine was the same thing....but we used a large worm gear and a big wrench   ( 20 x 39 x 30...so big compound)....and it took a LOT longer!

Dave


Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steamer on September 01, 2021, 02:09:47 AM
As far as being "caught" on HP TDC....well    first of all don't stop it there....that's easy enough

However....it happens.

Traditionally, crack the starting valve, and that lets some live steam into the LP, and gets the HP off DC, and bob's your uncle

Better way

Grab the reverse lever, and quickly change from where ever you are to the other side of the link, and back  ( Full astern link to full ahead link and back or vise versa)
What that does it allow  a puff of steam to go to the LP from the receiver, and she'll come right off DC and start right up.....

I could handle that engine fast enough that the captain might as well as had a lever in the pilot house.....    ( he didn't...he only had the bell pulls)

But you know Sabino.......  8)

Dave
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 01, 2021, 02:49:59 AM
Great stuff Dave!!!


Back in 1982 I had built my RC Sabino model, and had the captain running it next to the real one. Next cruise out, with the model on the window seat in the engine room, the captain called me up to the pilothouse and let me take the wheel for the whole run (with him right there to tell me what signal bells to ring). It handled just like the model! You are right, the quick response reverse/forward pulling back to the dock was impressive. Still a vivid memory, and I still treasure the crew hat they gave me. Awesome experience for a college kid.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: steamer on September 01, 2021, 02:54:50 AM
I've got some pics of the engine room....I mean the parts you CANT see...send me your email, and I'll send them over

Dave


On with the thread....
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 01, 2021, 03:00:11 AM
I've got some pics of the engine room....I mean the parts you CANT see...send me your email, and I'll send them over

Dave


On with the thread....
Sent!

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 01, 2021, 03:01:26 AM
Oh, and hopefully back on the thread tomorrow, my back was a bit stiff from all the time driving this weekend.


 :cheers:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: MJM460 on September 01, 2021, 08:33:22 AM
That sounds like a wonderful long weekend and an opportunity to fill in the gaps that inevitably open up in the photos from your earlier visits.  Nothing like getting down to the design detail to reveal what was missed the first time around.

Thanks for posting the photos.

MJM460

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 01, 2021, 05:40:33 PM
Back to work on the Holly engine this morning, started shaping the K-frames that go between the pairs of engine frames. There are four of these, two on each side. Originally I was thinking that these would need to be pieced up, but once I laid out a pattern, realized that I could just cut them from some stress relieved bar stock quicker.  Started out cutting the straight sides
(https://i.postimg.cc/5tRxkSW4/IMG-9970.jpg)
then moved to the rotary table and cut in the angled sides
(https://i.postimg.cc/bJSzXSqQ/IMG-9972.jpg)
Still need to trim in the bolt bosses and drill the ends, but had to see how the first one looks partway done:
(https://i.postimg.cc/bvJyTFMV/IMG-9973.jpg)

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: gunna on September 02, 2021, 07:16:15 AM
Looks O'K' to me.  :Lol:
Ian.
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 02, 2021, 12:43:11 PM
Looks O'K' to me.  :Lol:
Ian.
:ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: cnr6400 on September 02, 2021, 12:55:53 PM
Ian beat me to it!  :Lol:

The bracket looks great! Not an easy shape to make a lot of.  :cheers:

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: sid pileski on September 02, 2021, 04:47:39 PM
Hey Chris!

Thanks for vindicating my thoughts on that addition.
My tour guide was pretty adamant that, the extra gearing was to drive an auxiliary oil pump.
I tried to get him to think about it logically (just the gearing alone wouldn't make sense!) but he was not convinced.

Sid

Title: Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
Post by: crueby on September 02, 2021, 07:41:52 PM
Hey Chris!

Thanks for vindicating my thoughts on that addition.
My tour guide was pretty adamant that, the extra gearing was to drive an auxiliary oil pump.
I tried to get him to think about it logically (just the gearing alone wouldn't make sense!) but he was not convinced.

Sid
Yeah, hopefully the director gets the word out to the tour guides!
Title: Re: Chris's Holly