That's going to be an awesome model.
You say it won't be a short build. What? Like 3 months? 4 maybe?
Are your elves unionized?
(That's been the only upside of this pandemic. Haven't seen your pests around here for a while. Course...there's been nothing to see either.)
Chris:I stand corrected. And the elves stand quivering! :lolb: Hmmm, I do have some black powder for the flintlocks.... Here, elfy elfy! :LittleDevil:
Since it's the remainder of the cylinder liner, the ratio of its' diameter of bore to the length of the bore would probably be too small to qualify as an elf-cannon. Maybe an elf-howitzer but I think there are other qualifications it would also have to meet for that. Most likely it would be an elf-mortar. (It's short and stubby dontchaknow)
Don
Triple Corliss build 8)Glad to have you along!
I'll be following along Chris :DrinkPint:
Jo
Most of the time people make the base last, but you made it first. And it looks great! :ThumbsUp:By the time the rest of the model is done, it will be a LOT harder to lift to fit the base!
It's great to see the first swarf for this new mega model, Chris! :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
Chris....they are all still absolutely magnificent pieces of engineering :hammerbash:Yeah, stacking up a 60 foot tall pile of castings, and having them line up boggles my mind!
Our current engineering Fraternity would have great difficulty in finding Trade qualified Pattern Makers who were able to, or had the knowledge of the myriad of dimensional allowance tables for shrinkage for all of the varying shapes, sizes, volumes and dimensions of components
All of the physical properties are well known in our Universities subjects like "Materials in Engineering", or "Engineerin Materials", however it is the unwritten knowledge gained from actual Foundry Apprenticeship's that are the missing element
As long as you build will not have all of bucket loads of check valves, all will be OK
Looking forward to the continuance :cheers:
Yeah, stacking up a 60 foot tall pile of castings, and having them line up boggles my mind!
Hmmm, how about a version of the wooden kids blocks shaped like engine parts... Sounds like a fun toy set!Yeah, stacking up a 60 foot tall pile of castings, and having them line up boggles my mind!
Someone has just recovered from the idea of all those castings and now he wants to try experimenting to see if it is possible. The first problem is he is claiming is that he is short of castings :facepalm:
Jo
Hi Chris, a great start to another great build. I look forward to plenty of interesting reading to keep up with your build through the coming winter evenings. (Winter in this hemisphere, anyway.)Can you imagine the size of a single ball type check valve equivalent to all those smaller ones (even they are inches across). It would be like the boulder that chased Indiana Jones! :hellno: The valves they used look more like IC engine valves/seats, each with a seating spring.
The valve design in the water cylinders is an interesting consequence of conservation of momentum, or Newton’s observation of a body continuing in a state of constant motion unless acted upon by........
The smaller valves gain much less momentum as they close, so are subject to a much smaller force when they hit the seat. This force can easily destroy a larger valve. Then multiple valves are used to achieve the required flow capacity. But at 1/32 scale, the model valves are inherently much smaller, and subject to much lower force from the pressure, so will have much less momentum. So unless you are really keen on some mass production of valves, I am sure that one valve in each chamber will do the job very reliably for you.
So many interesting details in a build of such a large machine.
MJM460
Hi Chris, I knew about these engines and that they were for pumps but I never worked out where the pumps were. Thanks for the link to a bunch of pumping engines. I have been to the one at Hamiliton but now I have a bunch more to see.Those guys have some great led setups - saved that link!
Thinking about led's for lighting, there needs to be a current limiting resistor in series with the led which takes up space. Here is a small surface mount led with the resistor on the board. The holes will pass a 1.2mm or a 00-90 screw.
https://www.adafruit.com/product/1758 (https://www.adafruit.com/product/1758)
Cheers Dan
Wow... the original is a veritable Leviathan!Thanks Gary! I was hooked when I walked in the door of the pump station and looked up (and up) at the row of five of these beasts!
Your CAD model is a work of art in itself, and no doubt your model will be even more so.
A fabulous project in skilled hands such as yours...
:popcorn:
Hi Chris, another option re LED lights, that may make mounting and connecting LED's easier, are the battery powered strip LED lights as shown in my attached jpeg file. There are many firms offering these from China very cheap. The ones in the pic can be cut from the 1 metre strip into individual LED lights with their own resistor next to them, and wired in parallel to the supplied battery case. Wires can be connected by soldering to the bare copper tabs at the edge of each module. The strip has good quality self adhesive on the back to attach each light to a surface. For less than $10 USD delivered to your door you get a whole metre of light strip and a decent battery box. Just food for thought.
Hi Chris , this is going to be an interesting build, and there is so much to think about all at once !!! Do you have all the drawings for this or are you having to measure everything up yourself ?? will be watching avidly to pickup all the info and tips for when or iff i undertake a similar project.. More grease to your elbow as we say over here in Blighty !!! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:Hi Willy!
Chris is making Chinese puzzles, ”Try to locate the place that is missing a hole”. :ROFL:I told the shop elves its a connect-the-dots picture of Elfvira. They've used up three pens so far! :Lol:
Like everyone else,I’m can’t wait for the next installment.
:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Like everyone else,I’m can’t wait for the next installment.
Dang, Zee peeked in the window of the factory building!Like everyone else,I’m can’t wait for the next installment.
wait? All I do is blink and there seems to be another page of posts. ::)
I sometimes think he has a shop of 20-some ghost machinists (think ghost writers) who never get credit.
Can't be the elves. The work is too good. ;D
This build is Chris showing off. ^-^ Many months of entertainment for us in the gallery.Don't forget to lob some peanuts in from the gallery for me! :Lol:
Looking great Chris! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:Nope - no warping at all - I had stress relieved it first, an hour at 500F in the oven and let it cool. Does a great job to keep the brass bar stock from bending as one side is milled away. Otherwise, its pure Bananium! Helps to make sure there is no oil/grease on the bars first, or the oven gets real smokey and stinks up the house.
The brass stock does not seem to have warped much after milling the first side - probably not bananium then! :Lol:
The sky there in Rochester must be darken by some brass swarf.Sky is currently clear, but I had checked the 5 gallon collector bucket on the vacuum/seperator the other day, it was almost full and had to be emptied of its combination of steel, brass, wood, plastic from the last few projects!
:thinking: ...and I felt certain all of that brass swarf would have been save for heat treatment :Mad: cooling beds..........What a cute little jar of swarf. I think I made more than that this morning... :Lol:
Maybe, as I am just starting so 100 years beyond your treasure.. :wine1:
Derek
I think I'll make a backyard brass swarf feeder this weekend, in case any of Chris's brass swarf wanders by on its' return to the wild......... :insane: :Lol:
Machining looks great Chris! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Pretty soon you will be able to direct people to a particular hole on a picture by saying "on the northwest corner of A street at 3rd street, in LP town" :naughty: :cheers:
Lovely work, looks an impressive project. Cant be the only one disappointed that you aren't making 1260 check valves though!If it was only 1000 I would... :Jester:
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:Huh. That would explain the little bottle caps in the grids... :Lol:
I'm sure you thought of this when you were laying out the grids in CAD- are the openings sized so they are just a bit tight to fit any possible multiple array of Elfensteiner stubby empties? Wouldn't want the shop elves to appropriate these beauty grid plates to become the world's most well made but expensive beer crates! :Lol:
Hope the shop elves are coping OK with their 223 wheelbarrow loads per day of the brass swarf. Thirsty work to be sure,,,,,, :naughty:
Every project of your is really interesting to me...this one is REALLY interesting! Looking forward to watching this one!Glad to have you along for the ride - there are a bunch of parts that will be new challenges for me, will be figuring out a lot as I go along on how to fabricate things.
You're almost to the end of the waffle iron plates there Chris! But shouldn't your help there be wearing eye protection? At least the beer isn't open while he's operating the machinery! You'd have Elf-OSHA (ElfSHA?) all over you for that!Better to have the occasional Elf-Sha visit than a Oh-Sh** !
Kim
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:Fascinating! Amazing how many ways that same basic technology was used.
Yes on the sand casting for the originals. Such large castings would be "floor" or "pit" mouldings, actually done in the sand / loam floor of the foundry. Wood pattern for lower half of casting would be rammed up deep in the floor, parting lines arranged as usual. The upper half of the mould was often rammed up in a large "floor flask" frame grid , the pattern pulled out, and the upper half mould turned over and placed on the lower half, using the crane. Lots of weight added to the mould's upper half to resist the buouancy of the iron. The casting would be poured from a big ladle handled by the crane, or in really big pours, direct from the cupola in floor channels to the mould. Some castings if a flat top was possible with no coring were poured "open" with no top mould, and sand thrown on top after initial solidification to stop chilling / hard spots. Locomotive cast frames were done this way in some cases. Floor moulding area of foundries was an extremely dangerous workplace. Putting your boot or hand down in the wrong place could be fatal or at least result in a catastrophic injury. I witnessed a few small and medium size floor pours with cast steel (thankfully with no safety related incidents at all) during a co-op at a steel making firm when I was a student. Not long afterward, that type/scale of large casting industry, iron or steel, pretty much disappeared in Ontario Canada. Lots of it still done in Korea and Taiwan I understand, for the ship engine / heavy equipment markets. Still several excellent foundries in Ontario doing smaller iron castings and non ferrous.
Yep, too nice outside to be inside all day. I was out at noon for a good walk.Perfect afternoon out - weekday so not many people around, all the ice is gone, water level was high, and the Weed Monster has not migrated back north yet!
I'll have a troll around in yoot ube and see if anyone has posted any video of floor moulding / casting of big parts.
I wouldn't think the icebreaker would be needed on the submarine pond, but any scale iceberg floaters? Hope the elves were sobered up and had no hangovers for their silent run. :Lol:
Hope you had fun with the RC boats. :cheers:
Impressive milling on that plate...Thanks Gary! One plate was enough, but in this case it needs three of them so it took a fair bit longer! Even though the grid work wont be seen in the final model, it does reduce the weight by half.
Wonderful :praise2: :praise2: So many holes and so much swarf :) :ThumbsUp: :wine1:I actually considered doing that, if I spot a used one cheap I'd have gotten it, taken off that spring, and put a t handle on the top pulley.
Is the tapping tool designed to be lubricated with Elfsteiner?
I tend to use my little Proxxon bench drill as a tapping tool but I am usually working against the return spring.
Do think about adding a fitting to the top of the shaft so it can be driven with an electric screwdriver. It might save you from wrist problems due to repetitive motion. I think a screwdriver is the best choice because it has very low RPM and instantaneous start/stop when the switch is released.Like one of the small ones they use for electronic assembly? I have a big screw gun, the size of a normal drill, but that would be way too big. The little ones could be good though.
Like one of the small ones they use for electronic assembly? I have a big screw gun, the size of a normal drill, but that would be way too big. The little ones could be good though.
Looks worth a try, thanks Marv! :cheers:Like one of the small ones they use for electronic assembly? I have a big screw gun, the size of a normal drill, but that would be way too big. The little ones could be good though.
Yes, a little one, e.g...
https://www.amazon.com/BLACK-DECKER-Li2000-Rechargeable-Screwdriver/dp/B005LTNLDS/ref=sxin_10_ac_d_rm?ac_md=0-0-ZWxlY3RyaWMgc2NyZXdkcml2ZXIgY29yZGxlc3M%3D-ac_d_rm&crid=3SV4KYZ3S8OEA&cv_ct_cx=electric+screwdriver+cordless&dchild=1&keywords=electric+screwdriver+cordless&pd_rd_i=B005LTNLDS&pd_rd_r=1fc33618-8346-4fb9-bac6-8a203197b763&pd_rd_w=HnbNW&pd_rd_wg=wAPNL&pf_rd_p=b0625ac1-ea22-4a1c-8206-57129b08e075&pf_rd_r=JRZN3FVQN2QGGD7TRC91&psc=1&qid=1616598811&sprefix=electric+screw%2Caps%2C238&sr=1-1-12d4272d-8adb-4121-8624-135149aa9081 (https://www.amazon.com/BLACK-DECKER-Li2000-Rechargeable-Screwdriver/dp/B005LTNLDS/ref=sxin_10_ac_d_rm?ac_md=0-0-ZWxlY3RyaWMgc2NyZXdkcml2ZXIgY29yZGxlc3M%3D-ac_d_rm&crid=3SV4KYZ3S8OEA&cv_ct_cx=electric+screwdriver+cordless&dchild=1&keywords=electric+screwdriver+cordless&pd_rd_i=B005LTNLDS&pd_rd_r=1fc33618-8346-4fb9-bac6-8a203197b763&pd_rd_w=HnbNW&pd_rd_wg=wAPNL&pf_rd_p=b0625ac1-ea22-4a1c-8206-57129b08e075&pf_rd_r=JRZN3FVQN2QGGD7TRC91&psc=1&qid=1616598811&sprefix=electric+screw%2Caps%2C238&sr=1-1-12d4272d-8adb-4121-8624-135149aa9081)
Funny that Marv. I just put one in my cart the other day after reading some of your posts on that website of home made tools and things.The guy behind the curtain is just a slightly larger elf! :Lol:
Don't believe those elves people. They're not saying "Look what I did". They're saying "Look what Chris did".
But if they were truthful, they'd be saying "Look what that guy behind the curtain did".
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:Oh, HE was warped...... ooooookay..... :lolb: I do like the tool and die saying though.
Time to "get jiggy wit it" as the pop music kids used to say.
Or as an old foreman of mine said often " ours is not to question why, ours is but to tool and die". Yes, he was a warped individual. (Especially after his tot of Navy rum - he was ex RCN and served on Corvettes in WW2)
I hope the accused witch managed to evade those who accused her...Fortunately accused, not burned!
Fortunately accused, not burned!
Chris...The center section of all are approximately 1/2" square, but the lengths and angles differ between top and bottom sets, also the end pads differ. The top pairs are also joined at the top. Bottom line, they can share some of the same bar stock source, but thats it.
Yesterday, you say with the image ....'these are the Lower 6 pair of legs'........are the upper and lower pairs of 6 each legs of the same size & profile etc?
What material do you propose to use? ....& fabricated construction [soldered feet] or a lot more swarf :facepalm:
Derek
Hi Chris , this is going to be an amazing engine build with all these highly detailed parts to make ... but will be worth all the effort when compleated :popcorn: :popcorn:Thanks Willy, nice to have you along. Like your projects, I love to be able to see and photo the original machines, so much more inspiration.
Willy
:o :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :cheers:
Steamer Likey!!!
Dave
Hi Chris, congrats on getting the vaccine! good news.Absolutely rediculous that it should be taking them so long!
In my area the authorities are still having problems getting just the 80 year old and above group vaccinated. Estimates are Sept/Oct to get to the 50-60 age group, and possibly into 2022 for under 30 group. :hellno: Bloody disgraceful, totally mishandled, from federal level all the way to municipal level here in Ontario. :Mad: :cussing: :Mad: :cussing: :slap:
Happier subject - :cheers: A thought on your jigs - for handling the mirror image machining, a leaf jig with a hinge in the middle, working like turning the page in a book, parts fastened to each side of the flipping "page" or leaf, can be handy for that. Used many of them for electronics assembly tooling over the years in the day job.
Cheers, the warped one, CNR6400 (about warp factor 1 today - maybe higher factor tomorrow! :Lol: )
Hey Chris-Yeah, I was surprised how easy it went, very helpful people guiding through the steps. 70 stations, they were really cranking people through.
Being from Skaneateles, basically Syracuse, I got my first one there too.
Second one will be on the 30th, next week.
I was impressed by the organization of it all at the fair grounds. Everybody was pleasant and it was well oiled.
Sid
This morning I drove over to Syracuse for my first dose of the Covid vaccine. :cartwheel:
Hey, I like those! Maybe someone with CNC or a 3D printer can make an official MEM covid-shot badge...This morning I drove over to Syracuse for my first dose of the Covid vaccine. :cartwheel:
Do they give you a sticker/badge for having it? My parents didn't get one with theirs and I have not heard the end of it ::)
Jo
Completely ANECDOTAL aftereffect data from my family.I totally agree with all that, except I like my fish battered and fried! :cheers:
Moderna - 2 for 2 uncomfortable after effects - nausea, headache, soreness
Pfizer - 3 for 3 nothing important - wife had mild discomfort around injection site
Paperwork...
In addition to the cards issued at the inoculation sites, we received official cards in the mail. I scanned them and we carry the scans in our wallets in the fond hope that some day they may gain us admission to a real sit-down indoor restaurant.
Outdoor dining is legal here and yesterday we ate sushi and tempura on the patio of a local restaurant overlooking the Pacific and a fine view of Catalina. (Kalifornia may be a liberal hell, but the weather and landscape are worth it.)
The shop elves felt left out, so I offered to put them in the drill press and drill a hole in thier arm. No more complaints...
The shop elves felt left out, so I offered to put them in the drill press and drill a hole in thier arm. No more complaints...
If they get too nervous about that you could always offer to clamp them to the lathe faceplate and administer the dose via a drill in the tailstock. They'd be so dizzy they wouldn't notice the jab.
Has Surus gotten his shot? Leg or trunk??
The jig setup looks great Chris, time well spent I think, and the frames will be that much better, I think, than with no jig. :cheers:Glad you are up to shop time again! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
(impulse engines only today- 0 warp factor :Lol: - enjoyed some time in my shop today, first in a while. :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: )
Just a thought Chris - Could you glue a block onto the base of the jig temporarily to register against the first end cut of each frame? If you cut the first frame against the block and sneak up on the length dimension for the first one, and don't move the table afterward, the other frames fitted in the jig and pushed up to the block and cut at same settings will be same length. (all of them right, or all of them wrong - don't ask me how I know that :Lol: )There is a screw for the rails to register against for the tenon cuts. I removed that for the overall-length cuts since the end mill has to cover that whole face. The rails are too long to put a screw or block at the other end, and that is how I am sliding in the blanks anyway. Since the last post I have finished cutting them all to length, just needed to make an initial cut on the second end, stop and measure, and see how much farther to advance the cut to finish.
You probably need to break the block's glue joint and move it for the opposite hand frames, but it could save some moves / measurement. Hope it helps. Back to my shop now! (impulse engine only today, 0 warp factor) :cheers:
PS how are the shop elves coping with the wheelbarrows of brass swarf? :Lol:
Looking Good Chris.
Once you master tenons, you can then start cutting dovetails in brass. :lolb:
Jim
That's a lot of frame pieces there, Chris! And you get to do 2x the number of those end caps :popcorn:Thanks Kim! Later on in the build are similar frames up between the engine bed and the cylinders, at least those are only angled in one direction, but they have all the crossheads and valve rod attachment points built into them too.
Pretty fun to watch you work :)
And hey - I just read my latest Live Steam mag (yeah, I'm a few weeks behind!) and really enjoyed your first Shop Elf Corner installment on nickel plating. Great work on that too. Looking forward to reading more instalments of the shop elf corner :ThumbsUp: :)
Kim
All that glitters...I'll take dumb luck any day. Many years ago I named my first boat (a small Whitehall row/sailboat) Dumb Luck.
This is golden though. Will be great to see it coming together...
That's a lot of frame pieces there, Chris! And you get to do 2x the number of those end caps :popcorn:Probably good that you are running a little behind on reading your Live Steam issues, was talking with the editor and he mentioned that the next issue will be out slightly late, the design department got backed up and are running behind a little (they do a number of different magazines). No problems, just a little behind.
Pretty fun to watch you work :)
And hey - I just read my latest Live Steam mag (yeah, I'm a few weeks behind!) and really enjoyed your first Shop Elf Corner installment on nickel plating. Great work on that too. Looking forward to reading more instalments of the shop elf corner :ThumbsUp: :)
Kim
Looks like the engine designer has a leg to stand on, now! :Lol: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:The elves have a pair of really tall crutches too!
Very neat, as always, Chris!On the original, the rails were hollow, and cast as one piece with the pads/tapers at the ends. Massive castings, just making and positioning the cores must have been a lot of work. Same with the base plates, those were one piece castings, according to the plans. Making the rails from one piece with the pads would have needed much larger bar stock, much wider and thicker, to get the pads and the angles shaped in - piecing it up for the model is much more practical for me. The plans are a lot of fun to look through, they have notes on common patterns that made parts for different machines, where they just moved certain add-on bits of the mold.
So, all this angled mortise & tenon joinery - is this how it was done in the original? Or is this just how you're fabricating something that was cast as a single piece?
Kim
Very neat, as always, Chris!On the original, the rails were hollow, and cast as one piece with the pads/tapers at the ends. Massive castings, just making and positioning the cores must have been a lot of work. Same with the base plates, those were one piece castings, according to the plans. Making the rails from one piece with the pads would have needed much larger bar stock, much wider and thicker, to get the pads and the angles shaped in - piecing it up for the model is much more practical for me. The plans are a lot of fun to look through, they have notes on common patterns that made parts for different machines, where they just moved certain add-on bits of the mold.
So, all this angled mortise & tenon joinery - is this how it was done in the original? Or is this just how you're fabricating something that was cast as a single piece?
Kim
I was stunned that he had found them in the building, and again that he let me have a copy of the scans - that is a very rare thing to get hold of. After the model is done, and assuming they get back to doing the annual tours, I'll have to take it over there for demos at the tour days, got to repay the favor!Very neat, as always, Chris!On the original, the rails were hollow, and cast as one piece with the pads/tapers at the ends. Massive castings, just making and positioning the cores must have been a lot of work. Same with the base plates, those were one piece castings, according to the plans. Making the rails from one piece with the pads would have needed much larger bar stock, much wider and thicker, to get the pads and the angles shaped in - piecing it up for the model is much more practical for me. The plans are a lot of fun to look through, they have notes on common patterns that made parts for different machines, where they just moved certain add-on bits of the mold.
So, all this angled mortise & tenon joinery - is this how it was done in the original? Or is this just how you're fabricating something that was cast as a single piece?
Kim
OK, that's kinda what I thought, but then I started getting lost in the pretty joinery and just had to ask. Doesn't take anything away from the cool square-cornered mortises you're doing - that is super cool, as is the angled Tenon jig. :ThumbsUp:
The plans must be fascinating! It is so great that you were able to get a set of the original plans! That must have been quite the thrill to get those!
Kim
For casting the original full size hollow frame cores, I would expect that many chaplets would be needed along each core to support them, both under the core and at the sides. The moulders probably used several individual cores to be able to make shorter ones, easier to lift and less prone to breakage. (and they would likely put Shaky the jittery handed moulder on pattern cleaning or counting flasks, the day they were moulding frames.) :Lol:What is a chaplet and how is it used? Never heard that term before. Chiclet, yes, Chaplet, no. :noidea:
Chaplets are still available in many shapes and sizes. Link to one local firm carrying them is below. You can often see the residual imprint of one face of the chaplet where it didn't melt right into the casting if you look at big or long castings on old engines.
http://smelko.com/?page_id=395 (http://smelko.com/?page_id=395)
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
This is going to be an epic build!Thanks Dave!
:popcorn:
Dave
For casting the original full size hollow frame cores, I would expect that many chaplets would be needed along each core to support them, both under the core and at the sides. The moulders probably used several individual cores to be able to make shorter ones, easier to lift and less prone to breakage. (and they would likely put Shaky the jittery handed moulder on pattern cleaning or counting flasks, the day they were moulding frames.) :Lol:What is a chaplet and how is it used? Never heard that term before. Chiclet, yes, Chaplet, no. :noidea:
Chaplets are still available in many shapes and sizes. Link to one local firm carrying them is below. You can often see the residual imprint of one face of the chaplet where it didn't melt right into the casting if you look at big or long castings on old engines.
http://smelko.com/?page_id=395 (http://smelko.com/?page_id=395)
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Sounds like a very repeatable process! Which is good, because you'll have to repeat it a LOT of time! :insane:Jigs are well worth it for mass produced parts!
Kim
:ThumbsUp:
‘ :cheers:
Don
I am maybe a Luddite about the new technologies (or maybe I really just don't have the time ATM) but that to me is impressive :praise2: :praise2: :wine1:Me too in some ways. For decades I worked on computers all day, and didn't want one in the house so I could get away from the keyboard! The printers have come a long way, much better out of the box, and for the current projects I thought I would try one.
I’ve been following along in the shadows Chris. Now that I have upgraded my technology I can come out into the light and post. Excellent work as usual.Thanks Bob, great to have you along for the ride. Hope you brought snacks, its going to be a long trip!
-Bob
Congratulations on your new tool :ThumbsUp:I think they changed the loading in that newest upgrade (which mine has from factory), so that it uses the led/sensor in the filament path already. Or are you talking about an external indicator? I couldnt find the article you mentioned, can you post the link? They have a LOT of articles!When you change colors, I assume it stops the print and prompts you for the new color? I have not gotten anywhere near that level yet!
I got a similar one - or more correct - I had the same model until they were able to ship the MMU (enables me to use five different plastics / colours etc.) on the same print. I had a few mishaps with mine - one turned out to be a screw that wasn't torqued hard enough, so it came loose and the printing head as well a result :-[
This was discovered during the upgrade -> so it worked nicely for some time again (except with flexibles >:( ) until it couldn't be persuaded to load the filaments .... :Mad: :cussing:
I can for that reason highly recommend that you add an SMD LED on the Filament sensor on top off the printing head, that shows if the sensor thinks that the Filament is loaded - this has shown me a few times that the sensor needs to be adjusted => everything works very nicely again :)
There is a nice little article on how to do so on the Prusa site.
Still following your big build :popcorn: :cheers:
Per
Hi ChrisWow - thats quite a mechanism to feed the different colors like that!
No it changes between five different Filaments automatically - se the rightmost here :
https://www.prusa3d.com/ (https://www.prusa3d.com/)
It does mean that it creates a 'Waste Tower' when it changes filament .... in order to purge the printing head.
I have just discovered that I can't even find my own posts on the Prusa user forum now :shrug:
But I was also reminded that the Filament sensor isn't the same if you got the MMU or not ....
The LED I'm talking about is not really external, as you have to drill a 2mm. hole in the top lid over the printing head, to see it, but it, + a resistor or two, is put on top of the existing PCB, so you get a visible indication of the state that the MCU is reading (but doesn't show - not even LIVE if you ask it to do so in the LCD).
I know it's not an extremely big spanner - but the biggest I have encountered, was in my youth.
Only time I needed to jump on the bar for a lug nut was on my own car, an old Bobcat which was a Pinto with delusions of grandeur - fortunately mine was after (they claimed) they fixed the flaming gas tank issue! One of the lugs was frozen on, tire was flat, car came with one of those silly folding one-arm lug nut wrenches, so a friend and I found a bit of pipe to put on a ratchet handle to break the nut loose. It got it loose, but destroyed the ratchet in the process. It was a Craftsman ratchet handle though, so back to Sears to get it swapped with a brand new one. Those were the days.... :oI know it's not an extremely big spanner - but the biggest I have encountered, was in my youth.
Me too, I was about ten years old. My late father was a bulldozer driver, big CATS - D8s & D9s, and I used to go to work with him in the school holidays. I remember holding his hip as we both jumped off the track onto a one inch diameter tommy bar some six feet long to remove the nuts on the rear drive sprocket!
Looking good!Thanks Gary - I got the rest of the top plates tapped and test fit on the model. Found one rail that was just slightly short, tilting the top plate a fraction to the side. A bit of thin shim stock under the pad cured that. Also found that I had drilled one of the larger center holes on the wrong edge of the plate (moving too quick with the stack I guess). Drilled the correct one, and am filling the bad one with some JB Quik epoxy. It would only be visible by a shop elf on the lower pump platform looking up under the engine beds, but they LOVE to point out stufff like that and laugh...!
Will be great to see this develop...
but they LOVE to point out stufff like that and laugh...!
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn::Lol:
The name on the big wrench may have been chosen because it was less die work for the tool engraver than "His Royal Highness Richard III" (just a theory) :Lol: :shrug:
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
The name on the big wrench may have been chosen because it was less die work for the tool engraver than "His Royal Highness Richard III" (just a theory) :Lol: :shrug:
Goodness, that is lot of bolts & nut, with many more to come :facepalm: ....must remember the original pipe spools with bends would have been sand cast and the straight spools Spun Cast, but both in steel with rough surface finishesHad not heard of spun casting on that kind of scale, but it makes sense. Is it a big mold spun around, or more of an extrusion type process? If not a mold, then the flanges would get welded on after? Did that process exist back in early 1900s?
If you scraped the layers of paint off the original staight spools on the machine, you would probably find a course rotational pitch [similar to course lathe tooling marking] as a result of the spinning in the Spun Cast process
So, don't worry about any such rotational pitch marks on your PLA printed tubes
Derek
Wow, Chris, those pipe sections look great!The pipe fasteners are 2-56, with small-pattern scale nuts with 1/8" across flats and thicker than normal ones, give a good scaled look. Got them at Fastener Express, just ordered more since I am going through them quick. Also have some 1-72 and 0-80 fasteners for the smaller stuff to come later. Some of the bigger base fasteners are 4-40. The size of the fasteners was one of the things I had to juggle when deciding on the scale for the model.
And what size are those fasteners you're using? 2-56? or smaller?
Kim
Sorry....the actual vintage of the machine eluded me......[right or wrong, were were taught that this 'Spun Cast' process was progressed in the early 1920's in England after the secrets of the process :zap: were acquired by deception from Germany? ]That was a time with the metal technology changing quickly, both in casting and in welding. I was surprised in that one photo that the casting part number was still visible and not covered in layers of paint - being indoors all those years really preserved things better than outside like bridge parts.
If we are talking 1911+, obviously the straight pipe spools would have been sand cast, complete with the flanges ready for cleanup machining & flange bolt patterns drilled by Horizontal Boring machines
The surface finish would again be rough.........
Centrifically cast , or as originally termed as Spun Cast pipe spools were made in semi continuous length, however dependent on the volume/tonnage of the Melt. Their flanges were carbon arc welded to make a one piece spool
Derek
Chris:No shrinkage so far on the parts, amount does vary with which material, infill, and layer density. For these parts, a small amount would not matter, some it does.
Not to be a noodge or anything, but did you allow for shrinkage when you printed those parts? If you printed them at the proper dimension, when they cool they will shrink and be undersize. DAMHIK You can scale the entire part oversize in your slicer to compensate for this shrinkage.
Don
Yeah, as the parts get bigger shrinkage becomes more apparent. I usually scale my prints to about 104%-105%, that usually gets me within 0.25mm of the actual dimension. With an filament printer, I figure that's good enough for gubmint work.What kind of filiment do you use? So far I am using the PLA that it came with, imagine it probably varies with the material.
Don
What kind of filiment do you use? So far I am using the PLA that it came with, imagine it probably varies with the material.
Epoxy makes great fillets,I’ve used it myself.Did plenty of sleeping in meetings before retirement! :lolb:
On another note.... here is another ‘Chris’ model, proceeding at ‘break-neck’ speed,”does the man ever sleep?”. :shrug:
Hi Chris, I was wondering how you planned to drill the legs for the floor bolt bosses. The height of the parts and the shallow cutting angle struck me as potentially tricky. You obviously solved it perfectly, the cuts themselves look really great. Did you "drill" with an endmill on an extended shank?
Parts and assembly look great, in any case. :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
OK....understood..... :facepalm: "Main Frame Anchor Bolts"The plate bolted to the wood is representing the concrete floor, at least a portion of it. Had to draw the line somewhere, or I could have wound up having to make the whole building. Didn't want to make five engines, so didn't do that!! :Lol:
Currently, you have the main pump frame base plate bolted down by 8 bolts then the wooden display border....would you consider a larger footprint display board with a 1" plus wide [on each of 4 sides] natural coloured fine concrete floor around the complete display base?All of the photographs display the concrete floor as the same grey tone as the pump & associated:hammerbash:
Could look the part :wine1:
Derek
PS.....just found plain Brickwork floor in some images..... :Doh:
Enjoying this build Chris!Thanks Dave, me too!
Dave
Are you talking about the red around the modern blue pumps? Thats a new layer on top of the concrete, only in the new pump section.OK....understood..... :facepalm: "Main Frame Anchor Bolts"The plate bolted to the wood is representing the concrete floor, at least a portion of it. Had to draw the line somewhere, or I could have wound up having to make the whole building. Didn't want to make five engines, so didn't do that!! :Lol:
Currently, you have the main pump frame base plate bolted down by 8 bolts then the wooden display border....would you consider a larger footprint display board with a 1" plus wide [on each of 4 sides] natural coloured fine concrete floor around the complete display base?All of the photographs display the concrete floor as the same grey tone as the pump & associated:hammerbash:
Could look the part :wine1:
Derek
PS.....just found plain Brickwork floor in some images..... :Doh:
Where is the brick floor? Too settled in the recliner to go look on the main PC!
There appears to be a bricked in floor area [in yellow] immediately up to the actual Plinth of the unit......[Plinth = Base]Well, I'll be dipped in elf-snot! (ick!)
:ThumbsUp:
Derek
Wow, Chris! This is an amazing build! Love the big printed pipe chunks! And the support frame forest :)The middle hole in the end of the pad is for an alignment pin - a lot of the connections have them for lining up the castings on assembly.
In that last picture you just posted, does it show THREE bolt heads in the end of that support? Or is that lump in the middle something else?
Kim
So the 16 x Main Frame Anchor Bolts are just as such...holding down bolts, not any form of alignment tool........those lumps do thisEspecially water pumping plants, I would assume! The floor there is below the level of Lake Erie, which is only a few hundred feet away - behind this building was the boiler building (since collapsed in a blizzard), that was next to the lake. Offshore there is an island building out in the lake that houses the intakes for the water pipes coming into the pumps. The balcony that people are standing on in the pictures is at ground level of the area. I would expect that this setup avoids having to pump in water to prime the pumps.
"Or is that lump in the middle something else"?.......mmmm.... the head of a taper dowel pin? :Doh:
We also see, low angled [low flow] concrete open ditch 'green slime' water drains .... :naughty: which were absolutely common place in all machinery plant floor structures
Derek
All OK, & agreed Chris......our job is to sit down & get on with watching the build :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :cheers: ...DerekOh, just watching? I thought you were going to stop by and help shovel out swarf! :ROFL:
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:I shipped the materials to your shop elves with instructions that they should lock you in the closet till you finish making them. I included ten boxes of cookies as bribes for them. Have fun!!
Good luck with making the 9,368 studs! :Lol: :cheers:
Thanks Chris & Derek, for answering my question.The curves are more functional than decorative, I think - they had to bow out to give room for the big end of the con-rod to come around, and that way they didn't have to make the frames farther apart. No where near as great looking as the big Victorian pumping engines with all the gingerbread and cornice moldings (probably a good thing for me! )
And nice RT work on those engine bed plates. The curviness adds something to the otherwise linear parts :) :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
Chris:Hi Don, will look up the settings later, what I recall is these are .15mm and .20mm layers depending on the part, PLA, .4mm nozzle.
What were your print settings when you printed those parts, filament type, layer height, infill, etc... enquiring 3D printers want to know.
Don
That's a lot of studs, Chris!They are studs, not much protuding. The printed parts are coming out well, the shallow curves need some smoothing. After experiments settled on fine paper, slowest speed, with the little detail sander, any faster it heats up too much. Using a wet dry paper, dipping the part in water frequently. Let dry, and it paints nicely.
Did they have studs in the floor to connect the frames to? In the picture in Reply #260, it looks like two hex-head bolts there. It could be studs though. Hard to tell. You have access to higher-res pictures though...
The printed pipes sure look good! :popcorn:
Kim
This is looking really good, Chris! Seeing your pipe-work really brings home the value of the printer, fabricating all that would be a nightmare.Some complex shapes, don't know how I would do them, and would waste tons of metal. The pump core section, which will be working, will be metal. Should be a great tool for the rc boats too!
Joe
Used 15% infill, though on these parts there is not much infill. Gyroid infill pattern. Monotonic top/bottom, 5 layers.Chris:Hi Don, will look up the settings later, what I recall is these are .15mm and .20mm layers depending on the part, PLA, .4mm nozzle.
What were your print settings when you printed those parts, filament type, layer height, infill, etc... enquiring 3D printers want to know.
Don
Looking through the high res pictures more, the lowest level uses studs, the upper levels are hex head bolts. The lower level studs have little sticking through, and most have enough dust/dirt on top that its hard to tell.That's a lot of studs, Chris!They are studs, not much protuding. The printed parts are coming out well, the shallow curves need some smoothing. After experiments settled on fine paper, slowest speed, with the little detail sander, any faster it heats up too much. Using a wet dry paper, dipping the part in water frequently. Let dry, and it paints nicely.
Did they have studs in the floor to connect the frames to? In the picture in Reply #260, it looks like two hex-head bolts there. It could be studs though. Hard to tell. You have access to higher-res pictures though...
The printed pipes sure look good! :popcorn:
Kim
Looking through the high res pictures more, the lowest level uses studs, the upper levels are hex head bolts. The lower level studs have little sticking through, and most have enough dust/dirt on top that its hard to tell.That's a lot of studs, Chris!They are studs, not much protuding. The printed parts are coming out well, the shallow curves need some smoothing. After experiments settled on fine paper, slowest speed, with the little detail sander, any faster it heats up too much. Using a wet dry paper, dipping the part in water frequently. Let dry, and it paints nicely.
Did they have studs in the floor to connect the frames to? In the picture in Reply #260, it looks like two hex-head bolts there. It could be studs though. Hard to tell. You have access to higher-res pictures though...
The printed pipes sure look good! :popcorn:
Kim
Looks to be about that in the pictures.Looking through the high res pictures more, the lowest level uses studs, the upper levels are hex head bolts. The lower level studs have little sticking through, and most have enough dust/dirt on top that its hard to tell.That's a lot of studs, Chris!They are studs, not much protuding. The printed parts are coming out well, the shallow curves need some smoothing. After experiments settled on fine paper, slowest speed, with the little detail sander, any faster it heats up too much. Using a wet dry paper, dipping the part in water frequently. Let dry, and it paints nicely.
Did they have studs in the floor to connect the frames to? In the picture in Reply #260, it looks like two hex-head bolts there. It could be studs though. Hard to tell. You have access to higher-res pictures though...
The printed pipes sure look good! :popcorn:
Kim
Do they have 1 & 1/2 threads protruding through the nut? :) Isn't that the standard I've heard people talk about? :Lol:
Thanks for checking Chris!
Kim
Chris:The pumps will be (hopefully) fully functional. What I'm planning on doing is have the central pump chamber match the original, but the check valves in the scaled-down version would be teensy. And there are thousands of them. So, I am printing the valve housings, hollow, and will put tubing/tees/elbows inside to direct the water, and put check valves on the inlet/outlet of the pump chamber, inside the printed housings. I'd like to be able to run the tubing from the inlet/outlet to a water tank to show the pumping action while running the engine. It wont be pushing against pressure like the real one did, so plastic tubing should work. Going to mock it up outside the model to test, once its sealed up/bolted in, it would be a real chore to take it apart again! I've got some stainless ball assorted-sizes coming, and I have the tubing/connectors on the shelf. I'm going to turn up the first pump chamber, and do some tests. The plunger is about 1" diameter, so it will want to move a lot of water (the real engine pumped almost 1000 gallons per revolution of the engine).
You've probably already said, but what slicer do you use?
A couple of questions about the pumping section:
You say the pump core section will be working. Do you mean the pump parts will be in the correct location and connected to the engine, but not truely functional - or do you intend to be able to pump something with it?
If you're going to pump something with it, do you intend to hide the inlet and discharge piping inside the printed piping, or actually use the printed piping as inlet and discharge?
Don
Excellent approach to material buying. Going to look for a local material supplier!For those in the US, the Yarde Metals I mentioned is a large commercial supplier in the northeast. Go to thier website, and look for thier Drop Zone, its where they list thier offcuts, for buying online. Selection varies weekly, most pieces are two to three foot long. Good if you don't have a local place.
Good input, Chris!Agreed on all points. The prices and shipping vary a lot, hard to predict!
Unfortunately, I've found that Yarde Metal's shipping is not so favorable to me, since I'm in the NW. But Online Metals shipping is MUCH better for me than for you. The metal isn't any cheaper for me though :(
I've also found that you have to check around. Sometimes SpeedyMetals is cheaper and sometimes Online Metals is. I order from both.
And I've listened to your recommendation and do check for cutoff's and order them when I can (when shipping doesn't chew up all the potential savings at least!)
Kim
Absolutely Craig........this Y Pipe Spool is amazing :headscratch: ....more computing power :atcomputer: than any Appolo voyage .... DerekThose Y pipes (bigger one on the output side) took some figuring out. Fusion 360 has a lofting feature where you can make a sketch drawing of a planar cross section, then another sketch showing the path it takes, and then loft extrude the cross section along the path. Thats how I did the Y's, elbows, and later on the railings going around curved platforms. With one side of the Y done from base to end, it was cut off at the middle and then mirrored to get the other side.
Chris-They have been trying to contach W. E. Coyote for some barrels of black powder, they thing it is an elf-launching canon! :Lol:
That is a nice looking urn for the departed elves :LittleAngel: .
-Bob
Chris, I’m “blown away” with this build. The printed parts are just fantastic, as is your other work. This may be your best model yet!Thanks Craig! I'm trying to step up my level of detail on this one - thinking back to the ones I saw in places like the Mariners Museum when I was a kid, that got me hooked on steam engines in the first place.
Sorry...I have read your words :happyreader: x 10 times :insane:In that picture the Y piece and the two elbows, which match the original machine shapes, have already been bolted together at the flanges. The software for 'slicing' the part into layers for printing handled everything else - you position the part how you want it on the printing plate, and it generates the g-code file with all the movements to print it. It also will generate support material, which is extra little towers of printed plastic that let it start the flanges that hang out in mid-air, since anything over about a 45 degree overhang wont print without the next extruded layer falling off. In the picture I had already removed that support material. I printed the Y with the large center flange down on the plate, the two angled flanges hanging out up above.
I can sort of understand the logic with a 90 degree or a 135 degree elbow of equal or unequal flanged pipe spool piece :naughty: ...but am a little lost in the one piece printing of a 3 flange Y pipe spool piece :facepalm:
Derek
Maybe if I had seen a few images of the Y piece, before the supporting elements had been cut away and removed would enlighten my mind a little :Jester:No problem at all - I didn't have a clue on this stuff till I got the printer and started going through the tutorials. I am giving you all 30 minutes of my unextensive experience! :Lol:
Keep going...I am sure I will get the understanding as you print/create :killcomputer: more elements [hunks of pipes & things]
Derek :cheers:
Crueby, are you going to use these as is? or use them as patterns?As is - at least with some sanding and finishing. I dont have the equipment or knowledge for casting. There will be piping and check valves inside these housings that connect to the metal pump chamber in the center. The way that the housings and pipe sections fit together I'll be able to open them up for access - more on that when I get farther along on the check valves.
Dave
ChrisThis is the Prusa slicer, came with the printer. Don't know if the support other brand printers, worth a look. Works well.
Which slicer software are you using ?
I have just been printing some of the pipework for Agnes using Cura 4.8.0 on my Ender 3 V2 which I have just bought, but am wondering whether to try other slicers as well.
Your prints look to be coming out very well, it is going to be an impressive model.
Phil
Pretty muchj the same Kvom - with any of the apps and thier tools, sure there are multiple ways to do it. The thing I struggled with at first was how to have the two pipes angle off but leaving that center area clear, thats why I did the cut and mirror.
Ahah....I see it all now.."It lays down 0.2mm tall layers of plastic at a time" ....By George (not Britnell) I think hes got it! :Lol:
I couldn't visualise how the print head got down there in the V of the valley of the spool :facepalm: ....it didn't!, as the depth of the V was only 0.2mm tall on each horizontal pass :ThumbsUp:
Must admit, the horizontal build lines in your image helped me :Director: .[so for every 1" in spool height, approx 125 horizontal deposit passes]
Carry on...no more interruptions [for a while] from me
Derek
OK...time has passed :old: [question :headscratch: time open again] ...how flat and square are the spool piece flanges?Wow - time flies when you're having fun! Or as Kermit would say, Times Fun When You're Eating Flies!
When any 2 are bolted together, do they sit as they should?
So reading backwards, there will be some water flow, but @ low pressure?
Would a Silicone type [Gasket in a tube] compress to provide an adequate seal?
Permatex market [152 gm tubes of RTV silicone] in an extensive range of colours....[stay away from fluroscent pink] :Jester:
This type of material would appear to be a little easier to apply than punching out :hammerbash: 14, 256 bolt holes in 0.05mm thick gasket material
Derek
Lets see, I did get the new brass bar stock today, probably annoyed the delivery guy with a 42 pound mailing tube! I noticed that the end cap was missing from the tube, but the bar was still there. I wonder whose shipment of glass ornaments got squished when the bar speared them.... O:-) Almost as good as the time that I ordered 5 bars of stainless steel - they came in separate mailing tubes (very thick cardboard with wood endcaps nailed on). Probably 20 to 30 pounds each. Could have smashed up a truckload if they rolled around on the corners! I do know that the UPS guy lost a fingernail - he tried carrying them all together up the driveway at once and they shifted.... Ouch! I gave him advance warning of heavy orders after that so he could take that day off...
Lets see, I did get the new brass bar stock today, probably annoyed the delivery guy with a 42 pound mailing tube! I noticed that the end cap was missing from the tube, but the bar was still there. I wonder whose shipment of glass ornaments got squished when the bar speared them.... O:-) Almost as good as the time that I ordered 5 bars of stainless steel - they came in separate mailing tubes (very thick cardboard with wood endcaps nailed on). Probably 20 to 30 pounds each. Could have smashed up a truckload if they rolled around on the corners! I do know that the UPS guy lost a fingernail - he tried carrying them all together up the driveway at once and they shifted.... Ouch! I gave him advance warning of heavy orders after that so he could take that day off...
I had a 1m long piece of 2" diameter EN8 delivered by post: all they had done was rolled some brown paper round it and used lots of Sellotape to hold it on and the lady delivery driver asked what is it? I said "its a bashing stick" she said yes that is what my son thought it was and I had to stop him hitting his brother with it (the boys were about 3 and 5 sitting in the back of her car ::) )
Still following along ;)
Jo
Are you sure they didn't 3D print all that?Maybe they collected pillows from around the neighborhood and shredded them...
Hi ChrisI don't recall whose engine that is, good chance someone here remembers or its thiers! It is one of many I took pictures of at Cabin Fever.
I'm most intrigued by that solenoid motor. :cartwheel:
I seem to have seen one very similar, maybe on the John Jenkins site (?).
Makes a refreshing change from all the 'pistoney' gubbins that infests this site .... ;D ;D :paranoia:
Dave
I don't think that Snow from cabin fever is going to melt though..... :Lol:
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
The solenoid engine is not- its an electric motor. It was built by Joe Higgins of Portland Maine. So is the Snow engine in that photo. Joe does amazing work. Joe did a couple old electric motors, mostly copied form photos or old patent drawings.I remember walking down the line of tables, stopping at his and going Oooohhhh! Very well done!
Wow! I don't know how I missed this build, but I've just read all the posts and I must say, I'm most impressed! The complexity and build quality are simply astonishing! I'll be carefully following along as you progress. Again, fantastic work!
Mike.
Looking good Chris.Thanks Bob! :cheers:
-Bob
:popcorn: Its amazing what can be made by soldering bits together :popcorn:Pretty much the way patterns for castings are made, except they usually used wood and glue! :cheers:
Jo
:popcorn:
That's a lot of brass! I was wondering how these pumps were going to work after boring holes through the sides of the cylinders. I think I can see now that the piston just displaces the liguid in the vessel rather than forcing it down a bored cylinder. Is that correct?
Eric
Are you going to set the axis of the pump chambers up in the mill so the gusset lines [edges/sides/tops] are in the horizontal plane, then simply slab mill them to the desired angle? [after being silver soldered?.Not totally sure what you mean? The pipe sections are horizontal and straight across one side to the other, at same level as the pipes coming out of the valve chambers. So, everything is square to everything else. Other than being rounded on the sides, at least. The chambers were held square to the mill by thier bases, the openings make it look like they are on an angle since they go through a round and tapered area on the chambers.
Derek ..[sorry :facepalm: my face angle shown is out a bit.......but you get the drift :ROFL: ]
Chris, Every time you post on this project I am in awe and want to comment but cannot keep saying "WOW", etc, so will refrain from posting replies. I am following closely and quietly :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :cheers: terryGreat to have you along Terry, there are plenty of other builds on the forum I do the same thing with! :cheers:
Chris, Every time you post on this project I am in awe and want to comment but cannot keep saying "WOW", etc, so will refrain from posting replies. I am following closely and quietly :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :cheers: terry
One of the most important mental disciplines to develop in our hobby is the ability to get as stimulated and excited about making one perfect part, no matter how small, as you would when the project is finished and running.
One of the most important mental disciplines to develop in our hobby is the ability to get as stimulated and excited about making one perfect part, no matter how small, as you would when the project is finished and running.
I'm still working on that; self-discipline has never been my strong suit (just ask my wife). :-)
Like many others, I tune in every day for the next episode but seldom comment. Keep up the build log; like your others, it will become an icon for future builders.
Splendid :praise2: :praise2: those pump chambers are tending towards jewellery :ThumbsUp: :wine1:Maybe in appearance, they would make a very heavy ring!! :cheers:
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:Sounds nasty! :Lol:
be sure to take a break periodically while working on all the check valve bits. You wouldn't want a dose of valvitis, after all. :Lol: :cheers:
I am just happily following along, with nothing to add but admiration. I like your brazement. Or is it a solderment? :thinking:Solderizementizing? Whatever it's called, the joints looked like they flowed all the way around, happy with that. Got them cleaned up and ready to mill the brackets to final shape this afternoon. Clear weather this morning so it was a good time to mow the lawn then sit out on the porch to read. Clouds are moving back in, supposed to rain again this afternoon, so will wander back into the shop after lunch.
Dog you just amaze me……… :Love:
:drinking-41:
Don
Well, Chris, you get more done in one relaxing read/nap day afternoon than I get done in two weeks!Shows the power of the nap. And the chocolate chip cookie.
The suite of parts sure look nice sitting there all in a row! :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:With the pipes out each side, its funny to watch the elves try and drink from it like a mug - giant dribble glasses! :Lol:
Better lock those assemblies in a cupboard after hours or they may be full of Elfensteiner stubby empties in the morning! :Lol: :cheers:
Very nice work, Chris.Thanks Chuck!
Chuck
Chris, Don't get me wrong, your work has always been outstanding, but I'm sure I detect your finishes getting even better! --TimBeen doing some tweaking on the gobs and backlash adjusters, also put in a new insert, which helps. Still learning about lathe and feed speeds, just going to have to keep practicing! Darn, gotta make more parts... :Lol:
When the pressurised side of a simple water system leaks, we can tap :killcomputer: the check valve ball into it's seat........to get a seal :ThumbsUp:Very true. On the original machines there were over a thousand valves to get the volume, if a few stuck they would not lise that much. On my model there are four per section, 48 total. Much more chance for failure than ony Weir pump with two. At least in this case if one somehow sticks it will still pump some, good enough for demos, till I can bribe a shop elf to go in there with a little hammer.
When a complex water system with multiple check valves leaks, and each valve with multiple check elements :Doh: :facepalm: :shrug: :lolb:
Good luck :ROFL:
Derek
Wonderful as ever :praise2: :praise2: :wine1:Thanks Roger! Been toiling away on drilling/tapping the holes in the inlet/outlet blocks, doing a couple blocks at a time then going off to do other things. Not quite as bad as doing crawler tracks!
So, the elves don't work on Sundays?I think they're off at the squirrel races...
So, the elves don't work on Sundays?I think they're off at the squirrel races...
You must grow some BIG bees in that area if those are their poker chips.And you wonder why I stay inside in the shop! :lolb:
Don
(https://i.postimg.cc/wjz8tCtP/IMG-9343.jpg)
Smaug is in the living room, was watching TV but fell asleep...
(https://i.postimg.cc/wjz8tCtP/IMG-9343.jpg)
Smaug should be sitting on top of this lot. Where is he?
Great progress ongoing with the build!
Off topic i have spent some time not in the best of health but am hoping to catch up soon. I remember you began using Fusion 360 when you designed the steam powered skating timber logging tractor with great success. Can I ask - are you still using that package? I am considering looking at it again.Hi Jerry,
Great to see you are maintaining your quality!!!
Jerry :DrinkPint:
Chiris, Great looking so far. 1 question will the brass parts be inside the 3d printed parts?Hi Dave,
I look forward to the new posts everyday
Dave
Great to see all those parts start coming together. I'm sure you could see it in your minds eye, but I sure couldn't. Looking fantastic, per usual! :ThumbsUp:Thanks Ronald! Even with the CAD model of it, and seeing it the minds eye, I STILL keep putting some of the parts on backwards the first time! :shrug:
Hi Chris,Well, elf-exhaust! Where were you yesterday? :Jester:
Looking at your pictures I'm wondering if your pipe arrangement will fit in your housings.
Eric
the shop elves are already demanding raises and more pretzels to go with the truckloads of beer they are bringing in
:facepalm: :Jester: ...it is your engine Chris , so I should shutup....but :ROFL: .....[you know me :Lol: ..]Absolutely not, ask away!! :cheers:
Derek
Good heavens! I stopped in for an update, looked at the posts up top of the previous page and nearly fainted! What wonderful work!Strap in to the chair, keep your arms and legs inside the car at all times, and SCREAM on the downhill drop! :Lol:
Well, if you're going to get into the shoulda-woulda-couldas... Then you shoulda made that access plate shown in the last picture removeable instead of printing it and the rest of the fitting as one part. Then you woulda had a spot where you coulda reached all the cap screws with a ball-end hex wrench. 20/20 hindsight is a wonderful thing isn't it? Glad it's you and the elves instead of me putting this thing together. Who's gonna write the service manual for this pump?I wish it was that easy - that hatch is at the level of between the input and output check valves. There is another one on the far side of the force chambers above the check valves. They made those to let a service person (most likely an apprentice! ) climb in and service the valve beehives. If they needed to get underneath the lower valves they could open the pipe cap at the end and crawl down the pipe. For my setup, that doesn't help, the shop elves took one look and stalked off. Sigh.
Don
Chris, methinks you need to get a thin, ratcheting insert driver like this...Hi Marv,
https://www.amazon.com/Neiko-03044A-Ratcheting-Screwdriver-Close-Quarters/dp/B000XYOUS6/ref=sr_1_31?dchild=1&keywords=thin+ratcheting+hex+driver&qid=1621616082&sr=8-31 (https://www.amazon.com/Neiko-03044A-Ratcheting-Screwdriver-Close-Quarters/dp/B000XYOUS6/ref=sr_1_31?dchild=1&keywords=thin+ratcheting+hex+driver&qid=1621616082&sr=8-31)
My version, which came with my Chapman gun screwdriver set, is only 7/16" thick at its thickest point. With a slightly abbreviated hex bit, I could slip it into a slot about 1/2" wide.
These type drivers work in both directions although many don't have a reversing switch; you flip it over to drive in the opposite direction.
Not applicable to your current task but perhaps useful to remember for future jobs is the fact that many of the 4mm driver sets come with a flexible driver extension, e.g....
https://www.amazon.com/ORIA-Precision-Screwdriver-Extension-Smartphone/dp/B07RDHLL9H/ref=sr_1_13?dchild=1&keywords=4mm+driver+set&qid=1621616877&sr=8-13 (https://www.amazon.com/ORIA-Precision-Screwdriver-Extension-Smartphone/dp/B07RDHLL9H/ref=sr_1_13?dchild=1&keywords=4mm+driver+set&qid=1621616877&sr=8-13)
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn::cheers:
Outstanding progress Chris! and a recommendation for screaming while going downhill too! Hard to beat that on any other hobby forum! :cheers:
You might be able to connect your hex stub to your ratchet with a length of soft plastic tubing, like Tygon. That would allow you to turn it from an offset or angled position. A kluge-master's u-joint for low torque applications. Final tightening might need another idea.That's a possibility!
Yes....looks supurb :ThumbsUp: . ...You are over-thinking it - the valves are the same on upper and lower plate. Both operate under pressure differences between the upper and lower sides. When the suction is applied from the plunger on the upstroke, there is lower pressure between the plates, and higher pressure below the lower plate and above the upper plate. That will push the valve up on the lower plate and down on the upper plate. On the downstroke of the plunger, there is now higher pressure in the space between the plates, which pushes down on the lower valves and up on the upper valves, opening the upper/closing the lower. Also - key point here - there are springs on every valve to help close them.
However I still believe the check valves in the upper plate are of different internal construction :hammerbash: to check valves in the lower plate
The lower check valves open under vacuum, an admit water to the volunetric capacity equalling the swept volume of the water piston
So, could the upper plate check valves be bi-directioal? :whoohoo: ........[free floating ball]......which would fall under vacuum of the suction stroke, and also allow water to enter the air chamber, but this is limited in water height by the stroke/volume of the water piston
Then, during the pressure stroke the lower check valve closes, and the bi-directional upper check valve also closes so sending the pressurized water on its merry way, leaving the water [level previously explained] trapped in the air chamber? :Doh:
--------------
The bi-directioanl check valves would look externally to be identical, but internally have different porting or the omission of a spring in the ball chamber....so is there anything hidden in those original drawings :happyreader: ?
Derek
So water passes between the purple and orange parts when open?Thats my understanding - the rubber piece, in purple, has the openings in it to let the water through, the orange plate is pushed up the post by the pressure. The pressure needed to open the valve could be adjusted by the nut above the spring - that was probably adjusted periodically as the rubber piece wore over time.
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:Thanks CNR, got to be the most involved base for an engine I have ever done!
Great looking subassembly! :cheers:
Hi Chris, I had not thought too much about costs with Shapeways. If you need lots of the connectors, yes it could get costly. Is the shape of the connectors spherical or jam-jar 'cylinder with shaped ends' shape? Either way not hard to make a batch from bar stock when all set up. Do you have a toolpost drill spindle accessory for the Sherline, or a Dremel mount bracket? this might speed things up by enabling the (eventually) horizontal holes to be cross-drilled while the bar / connector blank is still chucked. Just food for thought.
Now mind you with as many elves as you have in your shop, they may get through the cross drilling pretty quickly! :Lol: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: Sounds good Chris! Are you at making / buying 100 dozen cookies a week yet to keep production levels up? :Lol:Only 50 dozen... :Lol:
On the intake valves, did you print the threaded rod, or just add it? If printed it's pretty interesting to get that detail.No, that's lengths of some 4-40 threaded rod. I didn't think threads that small would come out well. The gears were printed, look good but wouldn't wear well!
Hi ChrisMay well do that, given the number I need to make. I have several hss tool blanks, could grind one to suit. :cheers:
Why not make a form tool from a piece of 01 flat stock? in the end it would be faster and you would get more consistent results.
Dave
They PROBABLY just want to "borrow" the mixer to mix the next batch of mash for their still. I'm told it has a distinctive aroma so you'll know when they use it.Just great. Who told the elves about the show Moonshiners? Thanks a LOT! :Lol:
Don
Dog did you say plugging away now come on man your not plugging your jetting through is more like it..:Lol: The loop-de-loops in the jet are fun... :Lol:
:cheers:
Don
They PROBABLY just want to "borrow" the mixer to mix the next batch of mash for their still. I'm told it has a distinctive aroma so you'll know when they use it.Just great. Who told the elves about the show Moonshiners? Thanks a LOT! :Lol:
Don
Today I got the rest of the top caps for the railings drilled and parted off, then as we discussed I made the first form tool to shape the very top of the caps to a dome. A very small radius, I started to cut it into the end of an old HSS cutter, then finished it using a diamond dental bur in the high speed rotary tool. Hard to get a decent picture of bits that small in the lathe, here is the best one that came out. It took a few tries to get the cutter positioned right, very sensitive to height since its right at the center of rotation.
Wow - some fancy turning there! I was thinking sort of along those lines with this one, though just in reusing the tool blank, there is enough on the right side to cut in the shape for the bottom shape. Thinking that I would turn in one at a time though, so I could set the depth once and just run the tool side to side, given how many will need to be turned. This is the first time I've made a form tool for anything other than gear and ratchet teeth, for one-off shapes I tend to just use needle files on the spinning part. Guess thats the sculptor in me showing through!Today I got the rest of the top caps for the railings drilled and parted off, then as we discussed I made the first form tool to shape the very top of the caps to a dome. A very small radius, I started to cut it into the end of an old HSS cutter, then finished it using a diamond dental bur in the high speed rotary tool. Hard to get a decent picture of bits that small in the lathe, here is the best one that came out. It took a few tries to get the cutter positioned right, very sensitive to height since its right at the center of rotation.
I like to grind several profiles into the same tool to save time.
Eric
You're a machine, Chris! :praise2:A chocolate-powered machine! :Lol:
Kim
This model is absolutely impressive in its current state; can’t imagine the show-stopper it will be when you finish it.I shifted the model so far on the bench, its already getting to be a heavy beast! Once done, going to need the elves to call in some friends to move it.
:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Hi ChrisSure thing Rich, very handy tool. I built mine after seeing one in another thread here several years ago. This one has an added extension option for getting into tight spaces. It will appear in my column in Live Steam sometime in the next couple years, not sure when. In the meantime, I've attached the plan sheet for it. The dimensions on the U shaped head can be changed to suit your bar stock, but the spacing on the holes for the moving parts should be done as is, they take some care to lay out. The top threaded anvil can be run in and out to suit the thickness of the material. It works with rivets that have one end formed already, and it squeezes down and forms the other end - cut the shank of the rivets to stick out a diameter or so. Works great on brass and copper rivets, never tried it on annealed steel but should work on small ones okay. Very handy device, easy to make. Enjoy!
I'm still following along :popcorn: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Can you show a little more of the rivet squeezer please.
Cheers
Rich
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:The real plungers themselves are 37-1/2" in diameter and nearly 7 feet long (stroke is 66 inches), the top caps are over 14" thick and almost 4 feet across! Not solid blocks, all are hollow castings, but quite thick. Its amazing to see all the massive pieces on these engines, then the much more modest sizes on the Corliss valve levers/linkages.
Liked the plunger top pics! Must be massive things in the real engines. :cheers:
.... with only a few weeks to finish the Holly! .....Um, err, going to be a BUSY couple weeks! :paranoia:
MJM460
Fabulous machines, and the quality of those animations is second to none.By the end of each day I was too tired to go out for one! Settled for a cookie and putting my feet up in the hotel room.
Must have been a great trip - I hope you rounded off each day of it with a bottle or two of the finest ale!
:cheers:
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:They did say on the tour that the Leavitt engine was prone to breakdown caused by the vibrations and the extreme angles on the pumps. No way to balance that setup, and it was run at 50+ rpm, quick for a big pump. The holly and allis ran under 20 rpm. The Monitor engine was even called a vibratory engine, and this one has even more mass in the rocker and levers out the sides. But, he did get it to fit the existing building, which he was handed as a constraint. When they added the Allis engine, they put up a new room on the building sized to fit the engine.
Glad you enjoyed the road trip! Lots of cool machinery to be seen and worked on. :cheers:
I was agitated watching the Leavitt engine animation - it triggered my machine design spidey sense about vibration and unbalanced forces in varying directions. :thinking: :headscratch: :noidea: I'm sure Mr Leavitt did the due diligence at the time, but thinking about the vibration modes may cause some insomnia here. :insane: I may crack a few Elfensteiner stubbies your shop elves sent me while you were away, to slow down the three overspeeding brain cells. (I suspect the shop elves broke into the beer storage locker when you were out) :Lol:
If shop elves are subject to cartoon physics, then that guy must have hung there for awhile after the brass dropped, until he finally realized what happened. --TimSo funny when he holds up the little sign before he falls....
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:Thanks CNR, I think it's a ways ahead of my original thinking timewise, the printed housings really took a lot of time off my guestimates. Rest of the model is all metal, so the printer will be used for more submarine parts and shop elf furniture. ... Hey, how'd that get in there?! Dang elves have hacked my password again! :Lol:
It's looking great Chris!
That is looking great, Chris!Yeah, its going to be a tight fit to get the rods between the pump plungers and the crossheads in, as well as the bolts for holding the engine beds and top plates in - not a lot of finger room in between all the frames and pipes! Here is an old photo, I think this one was from the factory where they built the engines at the Cincinatti water works, different brand but similar design. not a lot of space in there!
It's going to be packed in there, isn't it?!
Kim
Hi Chris, looks good so far. Are you counting cranks, or just working to the lines?Counting cranks - the lines are there as a double-check for miscounts and for confidence that I am not way off.
Looking great Dog, but I have to ask if you have a brass stockpile in your house that stuff is at a premium right now. Always outstanding work Chris….. :Love:Yeah, prices are up, I've bought enough for the next several parts so far, and I buy 'drops' from Yarde Metals of roundbar that are about 1/3 the normal price, oddball sizes, usually about 3' long, that I use for the larger parts. This flatbar had to be bought at normal prices, though the price varied a LOT from different suppliers, this time Speedy Metals had the best price by far, maybe they had it from a prior pricepoint. I try to keep a stock of common sizes to avoid buying short lengths for a specific use, longer lengths tend to work out cheaper per pound, and get used eventually. Also, the income from my articles in Live Steam pays more than enough to cover all my projects, so I dont care so much about price!
:drinking-41:
Don
Is just the flat part of the end angled? Or is the curved part angled at 2o also? Hard to tell in the picture...
Kim
Chris- I thought about the demo thing too, but in their info and history of the engines, it was never mentioned that these were anything more than working engines.In your picture it looks like the small gear on the shaft holding the larger worm gear is engaged with the openings in the flywheel - or is there a space between? Or is that not the flywheel?
When they were put out of service, that was it. Now, this particular engine, as you and they pointed out was troublesome and I think was off line when the Allis and Worthington were working. So maybe it was a demo drive.
I should have looked closer, but I don't think that gear was engaged to the flywheel.
BTW, down below, there is another single vertical engine that they used for generating electricity. Between the Worthington and Allis is the remains of a switch panel.
They thought it was probably DC generated. (in that time period, probably).
Sid
Chris- that is one of the flywheels. I did not get a better picture. I can't tell from my own photo if it was engaged or not, but I didn't think it was.Gotcha! One more reason to get back there for the better tour. I should be going up to Maine again this fall for the logging museum fall event (looks like that may happen this year), and may be able to work in a trip up to the old logging camp/locomotives way up north with a couple guys from the museum. If so, maybe I can work out the trip so I can hit the waterworks museum on a Wednesday when they have the special tours - the logging event would be on the saturday and sunday so those tour days are out. Have to see what the fall tour schedule is, they dont have anything in the fall posted on their website schedule yet.
The generator engine was below on the pump level. So, you would not see it if you did not do the tour to the "basement".
Sid
Great development. Some masterful skills in evidence here.:Lol:
Good job that elf wasn't sitting having lunch on a girder 900 feet above the streets of Manhattan when you cut it though!
Very nice, Chris!
Are you going to solder those blocks to the main unit? Or just leave them screwed together? I'm assuming they were all one casting in the original?
Kim
Be sure to check all the oilways/steam ways in the engine in case Bucket Bob crumples up his beer can against his forehead and drops it in the nearest hole....... again....... :Lol:Its those stupid pull-tabs from the cans that he leaves everywhere - nasty on bare feet! :lolb:
Great progress! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Dog, Dog, Dog, I don’t know what to say but……..I…………likeeeeeeee….. :Love::wine1:
:drinking-41:
Don
Simply outstanding machine work! BRAVOO!!! :DrinkPint:Thanks Jim! Quite a fun project so far, going to be interesting to get the crankshaft made and the bearings all lined up. The crankshaft has a series of different diameters down its length, plus a bevel gear for the lay shaft take-off, and the three engine beds are all on seperate sets of legs around the pumps. Should be interesting!
BC1
Jim
Watching on as always Chris ...
I reackon the mill spindle bearings have exceeded a normal rotational working life..... .....
[by the 1/2 ton of shavings & swarf slithers we have seen]
Derek
Do you follow a written "play book" to keep all those machining steps in correct order, and with none forgotten?Writing it as I go, right here in this thread! :atcomputer:
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
One man's boo boo is another man's intentional stress relief feature / frequency damping node. Just ask NASA. :paranoia: (I think they must have shop elves too. And maybe J-B Weld, but not positive on that) :Lol: :shrug:
Oh, forgot "inspection datum target feature" - very popular when explaining endmill kisses on otherwise perfect flat surfs from finding Z0 with a bit too much enthusiasm.......or from cookie sugar high...... :Lol:
When it comes to boo boo's, Just like Sgt Schultz on Hogan's Heroes, though, "I know no-thing! NO-THING!" :cheers:
"price is low but service is slow (hows that for a slogan?)"
It's got a nice beat, but it's hard to dance to - I don't think it'll catch on.
Don
We did get it straightened out after 25 minutes of the staff member arguing about not having the order sheet before I showed up and how the mistake wasn't his fault, could I not just buy the first stock he brought out AND the correct order? Uh, no. After seeing him with the wrong stock I did give him my copy of the order that I luckily had brought along. He did insist that I pay an extra two cutting charges for the replacement order, and a restock fee of 15% for the first two pieces of incorrect stock. Overall, it was a silly waste of time, I got hosed on the extra cut charges and restock fee, and cost was about double what I paid pre-pandemic for same order. :cussing:
I get the impression that your scale model will be about the size of his starter engine. Wow!
Eric
Splendid work as ever :praise2: :praise2: :wine1:Thanks Roger!
Material supplies seem to be becoming harder everywhere :( In my day job delivery dates just keep going out what was normally 6 weeks is now 12 weeks, a new crosslinking facility that might have been 9-12 months is now 14-16 months (or more :toilet_claw: )
Oooooooh.....Brass!!! I like brass!
Dave
Nice work, Chris! Only two more of those to go?Yes - there are six side rails, but the end cranks are open so they only have a bearing on one side. When I get to drilling the holes for the bearings, getting everything lined up across all three bed plates is important, but difficult since all three are bolted to seperate support legs. This means rather than all three on one common base plate, there are 21 parts between the bed plates and the common base - lots of places for tolerances to stack up! Putting a straightedge across all three makes me thing things are very very close, which is great. Still, I am thinking that I'll bore the holes in the center bed plate, then make a pair of temp bearings sized for a long drill, which will be used to mark the actual center of the crankshaft on the two outer bearing blocks of the six. It will be interesting to see how close it comes to the measured location! The bearings themselves can be bored slightly undersize and lapped out to take care of any slight misalignments. I've never made a model with this layout, other three-cylinder ones were on one common bed plate, so this should be interesting! The crankshaft and bearing setup when done looks like this:
Kim
Continuing to impress, Chris! A time lapse video of that thing growing from the base up would be fun to watch. Not that you need anything else to do! ;)Darn, the camera on my wayback machine is broke! :Lol:
So satisfying when it snicks into place!Few things are better than a good snick. :cheers:Quote
I am interested to see if you line bore these or just bore them one at a time. Are if you will leave play for alignment purposes if you bore one at a time. . I noticed a split shaft arrangement if I am correct. You are one metal carving machinist I can say that much about as good at it as your wood carving. Always great work Chris…. :Love:
:cheers:
Don
Given that the loading will not be that high, could you 'pot' the bearing shells or housing in something that would setup while all the bearings were held in alignment with a straight piece of ground shafting? Sort of a variation of pouring Babbit bearings in-suti using the shaft as the alignment tool.That's an interesting idea Doug. Bore the holes for the bearings slightly oversize and bed the bearings in JB Weld maybe? Hmmmm, that could fix any small alignment errors. The bearings have to be split since the crankshaft has wider sections at the flywheels (two, one between each bed frame) so the bearings could not be slipped over the ends. The flywheels will be 5 or 6 pounds each.
-Doug
I wax’s think on that second to last post. Using JB weld might be a good idea, but when you have weight pushing down on it it would move. If the bottom bearing sleeve is not a half shell but 3/4 shell then that might not happen. Just thinking out loud……Cant be anything more than a half shell, or I cant get it on the crankshaft with its wider sections around the flywheels and gear mount. Good point about the bearing moving or spinning. Maybe get it installed and bedded, then drill for a small brass pin to keep it from shifting?
Thoughts Don
My experience with threading studs indicated that testing in a tapped hole is needed as nuts are looser.Ah - had forgotten about that! Just went and tested with a tapped hole, and I got lucky, the nut I used for testing must have been on the smaller end of the tolerances, the studs I have made so far worked fine. Both ends of these studs will have nuts on them, but ones that I am tapping vs commercial ones.
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
It might be wise to store the finished studs and nuts in a female / squirrel-proof container. :Lol:
That's a lot of work in that little pile!Thanks Kim! Good practice for the 12 rods that will connect the pump plungers to the crossheads later on. Same basic shape but bigger, they will go around the cranks to drive the pumps.
The nuts sure do look nice though!
Kim
Just one very, very minor observation Chris. Nuts with each face chamfered are not usually encountered in this class of heavy engineering. The face against the part being retained is usually flat. Double chamfers are for general purpose nuts in the hardware store is my understanding.I went back and looked in the photos I have of the Holly engines, and you may be right on the chamfers - the outside end definitely has the corners relieved, the inside end its harder to tell with the layers of old paint and dirt but they do appear to be flat! I have close-up photos of the ones on the Allis engine in Boston, and on those I can tell that just the outside is chamfered.
Goodness Swarf Maker .....when considering Chris's nuts, I am sure careful consideration was made relative to relief angle [no nuts were ever designed to have 100% [flat] engagement, but reduced by 1/96th negative to the AF dimension]Derek, sounds like you are talking more about how flat the faces are, I think SwarfMaker is talking more about the relief on the corners on the end faces. Here is a closeup snipped from a photo on the Allis engine that has and extreme chamfer/roundover:
Then we must consider flat washers were never just those punched out rings, but a Graded Carbon steel, machined, then heat-treated to acceptt the induced torque :killcomputer:
Naturally when I quote 1/96th, as obviously being Imperial [as copied by the US] .........
I am sure Chris has any issues with his nuts in hand :ROFL:
Derek
-----------
PS...sorry ..I cannot see your location, however if in Europe & using the Si System, then nut face relief face /angle would be reduced by 1/100 th negative to the AF dimension]
The solution is simple at this scale.The LAST thing I need is my shop elves with buckets (well, thimbles) of black paint!! Starts out fine, then the paint flicking starts, then the graffiti (Your mother was a gnome, that sort of thing) on the walls, then the bucket over the head (thiers, then mine) .... :lolb:
Assemble the engine then gob on a couple thick coats of paint over the nuts, brush painted of course. When you're short of REAL work you send the apprentice - in your case elves - out with a bucket of paint and a paint brush, not a spray-gun. (At least that's what happened when I started work many-many moons ago.)
It'll look just like the real thing, and you won't be able to tell if the nuts are chamfered on both ends or not.
Don
Starts out fine, then the paint flicking starts
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn::cheers:
It's a good thing the elves don't know about OHSA, and even more importantly that OSHA doesn't know about the elves. Otherwise you'd be buried in the paperwork for their Lock Out Tag Out violations.OSHA came a couple times, left crying and covered in swarf... The elves used the tags as Christmas ornaments!
Don
Excellent solution to the boring (no, not boring, I mean the repeatable hole making) problem Chris! :ThumbsUp:Getting bearing holes drilled/bored through wide engine beds is always a tricky thing, through seperate beds on stilts has had me very nervous!
Very clever and intuitive Dog and you’re still the man………….I……………..likeeeeeeet…… :Love:Thanks Don! This one has been getting a lot of thought and worry for a while, very happy that it worked!
:drinking-41:
Don
Hi Chris, re stay bolts - that note indicates to me too that the bolts are helping the casting withstand internal pressures, just like stay bolts in a boiler do.
The bearing machining looks great! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Wow, Chris! That is a lot of nice work. I'll bet you're happy to move on to something besides bearing blocks now! :popcorn: :popcorn:Yeah, to bearings!! :lolb:
Kim
While the rotary table was set up for that set of holes, I put in an offcut piece of roundbar and drilled it to match the pattern. This will be used as a drill alignment guide when the gearbox housing is made later. Carefully marked to what it is so I have a chance of finding it later on.
Still enjoying your Journey and fine work :praise2: :cheers: :popcorn:The holes are evenly spaced around the rim, so the side doesn't matter - though the side with the writing on it is the side facing away from the engine bed. The main thing I wanted to capture was the actual distance from the center of the shaft, that is hard to measure on these shapes in any case, and when the engine beds are assembled on the model getting in to measure that would be even harder. So, used a disc from the scrap bin to capture it!QuoteWhile the rotary table was set up for that set of holes, I put in an offcut piece of roundbar and drilled it to match the pattern. This will be used as a drill alignment guide when the gearbox housing is made later. Carefully marked to what it is so I have a chance of finding it later on.
Very good idea - but I do not see any reference showing what side it belongs to .... please don't do like I do from time to time and "mirror" the reference :embarassed:
Per
Sherline's follower rest mounts to the lathe saddle, not the cross slide. It stays in position relative the the spindle center.But, on the product page it shows that it connects to the T slot. How's it stay stationary? Gotta go look again...
Nice work so far!
Eric
The rest mounts to the front edge of the saddle and sits on the ways of the lathe bed. The part in the "T" slot provides extra downard pressure on the rest to keep it against the ways, but still allows the cross slide to move.For threading small rod like this it should be more than strong enough - thanks for the tip!!
It works for small diameter stock but higher cutting forces can cause the brass fingers on the rest to move.
Eric
Looks like you had some hexagon therapy Chris ! :Lol: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Lot of nice little brackets there, Chris! Love how you did the production line of them then cut them apart. :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn:Thanks guys! Much easier to mill the shapes in as one long bar before cutting apart, lot less fiddling about with clamping each one. Without stress relieving, the bar would warp in both directions as the first side is cut.
And they use two screws per bracket to attach them?
Kim
That's pretty amazing, Chris. I see a lot of brackets in your future! :Lol:Yeah. :-\ At least they are not crawler tracks this time!
Kim
Hi ChrisNice setup- how big is the ratchet head?
I have a set like this at work and also one at home. It is similar to your proposed design except it uses a spline on each tool to engage the pawl.
https://www.newmantools.com/wfmc.htm (https://www.newmantools.com/wfmc.htm)
Dave
Hi ChrisNice setup- how big is the ratchet head?
I have a set like this at work and also one at home. It is similar to your proposed design except it uses a spline on each tool to engage the pawl.
https://www.newmantools.com/wfmc.htm (https://www.newmantools.com/wfmc.htm)
Dave
Great, thanks!Hi ChrisNice setup- how big is the ratchet head?
I have a set like this at work and also one at home. It is similar to your proposed design except it uses a spline on each tool to engage the pawl.
https://www.newmantools.com/wfmc.htm (https://www.newmantools.com/wfmc.htm)
Dave
It is .428" wide and .455" tall, the square part of the head is about 1.2" long.
Dave
It does have a pretty stiff spring, so might not work real well is a situation where the fastener does not have much resistance and you can't get a finger on it to add some.Good to know. Since I already have the big set of Wiha bits, I think I'll just go ahead and try making my own small one. The design I've got is about the same width, just a bit shallower, than that one. I've got several thicknesses of clock spring material (pendulum suspension spring too, which is thinner), will try different thicknesses and see what works best. I had not thought of being able to spin the bit by hand for starting screws, good idea!
Dave
Chris--I'm not saying much, but I'm setting back in the bush and watching every day. Your work is fabulous!!!---BrianThought I spotted you back there sharing peanuts with the squirrels! Watch out for the skunk thats started wandering through...
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn::drinking-41:
There is no [modern] engineering joint process that exceeds the accuracy of Tapered Pins :hammerbash:
Derek :cheers:
[mechanical computers used in early Naval Ordinance - Gun Plotting quipment had 100's of minature pinned geared joints [with zero backlash] & all in a box the size of a coffin]
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:I've used the plywood discs for some big flywheels, usually bolt them to the faceplate. The headstock thread on the Sherline is the same as some woodworking lathes, and the faceplates made for those can be easily adapted to the Sherline, just needed to trim the thickness around the threaded section. Nice thick steel faceplates a lot cheaper than the thin aluminum ones that come with the lathe.
I'm partial to using a plywood faceplate for big flywheels or gears , held in the lathe's 4 jaw chuck. Basically two discs of plywood glued up, the back one small enough to mount in the 4 jaw and the other big enough to fit the item to be screwed to it. If you have the lathe swing, it's cheap and cheerful but it works - IF you don't take massive cuts. :cheers:
(also spreads the lovely cast iron dust extra far, so a big bonus for black finger club members) :Lol:
Being able to turn the headstock like that is a neat trick! :ThumbsUp:Yeah, both the lathe and the mill allow it, only way to handle a part this big. I'm having to do the turning in sessions, running the motor slow with a load means it gets hot.
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Where's that bug zapper circuit, to apply to each side of that bronze wool with Bob in the middle? :LittleDevil:
Being able to turn the headstock like that is a neat trick! :ThumbsUp:Yeah, both the lathe and the mill allow it, only way to handle a part this big. I'm having to do the turning in sessions, running the motor slow with a load means it gets hot.
and all round procrastinating
Only two positions, its normally on the faster one, and I never think about changing it since the parts are normally all small. Doh!Being able to turn the headstock like that is a neat trick! :ThumbsUp:Yeah, both the lathe and the mill allow it, only way to handle a part this big. I'm having to do the turning in sessions, running the motor slow with a load means it gets hot.
Couldn't you move the belt to the slower pulley?
Great job so far!
Eric
Quoteand all round procrastinating
I'm sorry but I can not get my head around that you have this sentence in your vocabulary Chris - given your build record here .... :???:
Per
Lots of good turning and fab Dog, but hey you disappoint me Dog with a store bought flywheel. I was eager to see you fab one up and learn from it. All on all always excellent work….. :Love:I really thought about piecing one up, seen others do it on this forum, one this size would need a lot of bar stock and even more work than turning this one down. Maybe next time! On my MEM Corliss I pieced them up, using pipe sections for the rims - never tried a full wagon-wheel-style buildup of one. Yet.
:drinking-41:
Don
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:The sun sub-stituted for the rain, perfect weather! 4 inches of rain yesterday, more predicted today but it ended at about 8.
Hope the weather is sub-stantially sunny today for RC sub activities.
The flywheel is looking impressive now.Interesting! That pile of bronze is amazingly soft, sounds like a good use for it.
The swarf looks like a part catcher to me reminds me of a job i had at one time we made piston rings and seals we kept a pile of swarf like that in the cnc lathe with live tooling i run.
to catch the parts as they were completed and parted off the swarf was soft to catch the part then would be covered
to be protected from the next part. bronze white metal and mainly teflon based materials .which were easily
marked and scratched. the machine supplier thought we were strange we were the only customer that did that.
most people want the conveyer to take the swarf out of the machine.
John
Wow! That really changes the appearance. Great looking flywheels. Pity they have to be painted over a point of history.I'll leave it to George to make the mini all-polished-brass version! That would really be something to see! I'm going for the look of the real one so the iron-paint is necessary, if a little dull. Too bad they didn't pick out the frames and cylinders in red and green, something like that. The Allis engine in Boston is much more colorful looking, even with just the white decks with red edges.
MJM460
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:They are aligned with each other. On the original, they were constructed in two halves and joined with splines on the rim and bolts at the hub. There were keyways in one side of the hub and in a line on the crankshaft, so they would always go on aligned. I was wondering the same thing when I first put the two flywheels on for the picture, and went back to look at the plans and photos! Dont know if this was an intentional thing for some resonance reason, or just an artifact of the casting/machining process. The keyways are aligned with the pin end of the center web, 120 degrees from the end cranks which are evenly spaced around the circle. The mass is evenly distributed around the flywheels, and the cranks do not have any counterweights.
Hi Chris, at final assembly are the spokes of the two flywheels aligned to each others' spokes or are they set at 30 degrees or some other angle apart? And are the spokes "timed" in line with the crank throws? Just was thinking about it. :thinking: :cheers:
They are sure a sizable flywheel in scale
I remember as an apprentice 55+ years ago [Saturday overtime :Love: - maintenance day] checking on the drip feed lubrication to the outboard bush bearings to two [2] large, low speed Broom & Wade air compressor, with each having a single flywheel [about 8' diameter - quite a bit taller :Lol: than me] and each wheel had a series of 1/2" drillings around the outer edge near the major OD.......these were balance drillings performed during the assembly of the compressor [in London UK in the 1920's?]
What is the actual weight of each of your scale flywheels?........ :shrug: might be interesting to spin each wheel [individually] in the machines bushes with a variable speed source [drill?] and bring the wheels up to the nominal 100?? RPM & see what happens
Derek
oops :embarassed: ............sorry I had the speed out x 10 fold :Doh: ....... no real need for HS balance ............ :embarassed: DerekAs long as we can keep the shop elves off the throttle... :Lol:
Any idea how many pounds of brass and bronze swarf you and the elves have generated so far on this project?Flywheels shed 3.2 pounds of bronze each, engine beds and frames maybe One or two total, the cutouts on the beds are in the offcut bin for future use. The pumps maybe another pound. Still a fraction of the total model, its going to be a two person mover.
Pretty impressive looking with the flywheels in place!Thanks Dave, its nice to see moving parts finally!
Dave
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn::cheers:
...I REALLY need to make that smaller ratchet - getting the screws in on the lower part of the case was tough, not much finger room there. ...
Hi Marv,...I REALLY need to make that smaller ratchet - getting the screws in on the lower part of the case was tough, not much finger room there. ...
I've often wondered why those import 4mm sets didn't include a ratchet for jobs like you're encountering.
I wouldn't mind having one but don't feel like making it from scratch as you intend to do. I have a wrench similar to this one...
https://www.amazon.com/MulWark-Profile-Ratchet-Quarters-Screwdriver/dp/B07D4DZB1T/ref=sr_1_13?crid=1SY57AG4V54XD&dchild=1&keywords=mini+ratchet+wrench+set&qid=1626972790&sprefix=mini+ratchet+wr%2Caps%2C238&sr=8-13 (https://www.amazon.com/MulWark-Profile-Ratchet-Quarters-Screwdriver/dp/B07D4DZB1T/ref=sr_1_13?crid=1SY57AG4V54XD&dchild=1&keywords=mini+ratchet+wrench+set&qid=1626972790&sprefix=mini+ratchet+wr%2Caps%2C238&sr=8-13)
I would take a bit of 1/4" brass hex, drill it out to 4mm, and use the vise to press in a T25 Torx bit to start "hexifying" the hole which would then be filed to shape. A thin sheet metal cover on one end to keep the bits from sliding through and then size this to the thickness of the hex socket in the wrench.
If I cut down the shafts on the 4mm bits, I think I could get this arrangement into a 5/8" slot.
Just brainstorming right now. I'm waiting to see what you devise and/or the clever Asians introducing one.
Chris:Hi Don,
When I saw your ratchet design it never tripped any alarm bells for me. However, when I saw Marv's link it reminded me of what I picked up at Lowes a couple of years ago. https://www.lowes.com/pd/Kobalt-35-Piece-Standard-SAE-and-Metric-Polished-Chrome-Mechanics-Tool-Set/3387640?cm_mmc=shp-_-c-_-prd-_-tol-_-google-_-pla-_-218-_-mechanicstools-_-3387640-_-0&placeholder=null&ds_rl=1286981&gclid=CjwKCAjwruSHBhAtEiwA_qCppjYYZ4et__dH-wQO6l-vncrVx6KPnltpfuDGHhTVbF9lvAw-jo3kUxoC9i4QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds (https://www.lowes.com/pd/Kobalt-35-Piece-Standard-SAE-and-Metric-Polished-Chrome-Mechanics-Tool-Set/3387640?cm_mmc=shp-_-c-_-prd-_-tol-_-google-_-pla-_-218-_-mechanicstools-_-3387640-_-0&placeholder=null&ds_rl=1286981&gclid=CjwKCAjwruSHBhAtEiwA_qCppjYYZ4et__dH-wQO6l-vncrVx6KPnltpfuDGHhTVbF9lvAw-jo3kUxoC9i4QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds) (MAN they pack a lot of junk into that link!)
At $20 you're not out much if it doesn't work for the Holly. I don't use mine a lot, but when I need to get to a screw in a confined space it's the goto. (It's not worth much on a rusted screw in a bad spot, but then what is?)
Don
When you make the ratchet, be sure you chrome plate it and engrave the handle with the "Snap-On" logo. It'll make the elves feel important 'cause you only get the best for them.:ROFL:
Nice work on the flywheels, always amazes me at how you can make such large pieces on such small equipment. Nice feature being able to rotate the headstockThanks! That headstock feature has come in handy on a number of projects. At least for the ratchet handle project the parts will be smaller than the machines for once!
How many times during the ratchet brainstorming session did the shop elves suggest breaking away for another Mann truck run for more Elfensteiner stubbies? (or did they stock up beforehand?) :Lol: :cheers:They had a full truck full when we started. They are off again refilling it now!
Hi Chris, on the left side of the frame in your pic there is a plate shown with 3 holes at top and 3 at the bottom. What was that for on the original engine? I was just thinking that if the casting had much of a cavity in it behind this plate, it would be a structural weak spot. Just curious. That plate and blocks setup will be some involved fixturing!The engine frames have a bunch of plates like that, for mounting catwalks, the lay shaft brackets, and the K-shaped brackets. The original had the frames hollow, but where the plates stuck out like that the insides were continuous in the hollow box shape, not rising up at the plates so no extra inside corners there.
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Great work Chris. I was disappointed you did not make chug noises when turning the flywheel over :ROFL:I was too busy grinning!
Dave
Aluminum, silver, it's just 6061 or half a dozen of the other! :Lol:
Chris:All of the above.... :Lol: Wait, I thought Loctite was just purified elf spit?!
You've probably already said, but how are the frames parts going to be held together, bolts, solder, elf spit, bubble gum, baling wire?
Don
I of course can't speak from personal experience, but I've been told that Bondo and paint covers manyIn this particular case the gaps will go away once the sides of the frames are milled to thickness - they are only there due to the radius on the bar stock corners. For the models, I typically use a little JB-Kwik epoxy, easier to mix up in very small amounts, but same end effect as Bondo.sinsthings. (You know, Bondo and paint makes me the welder I ain't.)
Since you're painting everything anyway, those small gaps would be a perfect application.
Don
Very intuitive Dog and …….i……………likeeeeee… :Love:Thanks Don!
:drinking-41:
Don
I know you, you're not sorry, I can hear the laughing from here! :lolb:
....
(sorry :facepalm: )
Chris:By the elf-load!
You been buying the bolts for this project by the gross, the pound, or the ton?
Don
The frames should be dancing in no time!As long as they do their dancing now and not while the engine is running! Looking great, as always.
Wow ..looking really good and the photos are also clear and sharp , so getting there slowly !!Thanks Willy - long way to go yet on the frames, but every stage it goes through really changes the look!
Willy
Not only are you showing the current state of affairs on this amazing build - but all around the walls are other fantastic builds you have shared with us :praise2:Hi Per,
For some reason the Shay are one of my favourites - maybe because it was your first here, and that it was posted in a period of not much other activity :Love:
Per
So many fine pieces (but you do have some helpers :) ) :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :wine1:Thanks Roger! (and thanks to the elves too, they do help, between raucus parties and RC truck thefts)
(https://i.postimg.cc/fbZ7gqKv/Engine-Frames-View.jpg)
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:Some rainstorms moved through so we got a late start. I'm taking the elves along, the friend I am meeting there just bought a new Vette, so I will see if the elves can hotwire it... :lolb:
Enjoy the steam show! Don't forget to lock the beer fridge and spirit locker - when the cat's away shop elves will play! :Lol:
I can imagine the police radio broadcast now: "All cars BOLO 1995 Corvette, male driver 10" tall, caucasian, brown hair, with hardhat. Passengers - 14 male passengers also 10" tall, two with burnt fingers. Possible destination - stores selling beer" :Lol:So THATS why they get away with it - the BOLO called for 10" tall guys, these elves are only 4" tall! (hey you in the Corvette, move along, we are looking for your older brothers!)
Looks like a great show! Lots of interesting old goodies. I like the dump truck just as much as theThat shovel is an early backhoe type, before they had the pivot at the bucket worked out, so the whole boom had to tip to dump. All I could think was that it's a good thing that there was no sunroof in the truck!! Very cool to watch them work.steamshovel!
Great steam show pics! Thanks for posting them. TWO Corliss engines at one show! Never seen an oil burner on a boat's VFT boiler before - but a nifty idea. Cleaner than coal and safer than propane - and smells like the inside of a Kenworth engine's injector pump. The low slung Eclipse / Frick engine was nice to see. I used to see a few here in Ontario, but not in the last couple of years. You know I've looked and looked at them and never saw any "e" clips at all, not sure why they are called Eclipse.... :facepalm: :cheers:I didn't realize it was an oil burner, we were thinking it was a blower for starting the coal, but you are right! Very pretty launch.
Terrific progress on the Holly frame details and brackets! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Thanks for the pics of the steam show. That looks pretty cool.It looked like they had piles of dirt trucked in at some point, no holes down below grade. The steam club there owns the land, so I think they just leave the piles year to year.
So, they just turned the shovels loose in a field and let them dig holes all over? That's pretty amazing. Did they have to put the dirt back when they were done?
Kim
It's always good to see those old engines working and doing what they are supposed to. The annual steam threshers reunion at Rollag is coming up soon - might get along to that.That Rollag show is one I wish I could get to, on my bucket list, but am taking a number of other trips this summer and it is about 20 hours of drive time (excluding stops) from home, just too much given the other trips. If you go, take pictures and videos for us!
Your build continues to impress as always Chris!
Chris, very interesting feature. The brass bearing for the crankpin has square flanges and is octagonal in the center section, this is how I read the dotted lines indicated by the blue arrows.Hi Dan,
Is this a joint for two halves of the crank or does each crankpin have a drag box?
Cheers Dan
OK, I think we agree that these block thingees, whatever Holly called them, started out their life as a square-ish lump of brass with a hole through the middle of it. I've been wracking my brain, at least the 2 or 3 remaining working brain cells, trying to figure out why they took the chunks out of the corners - there HAD to be a good reason. I have a theory, in your best Baldrick voice say it with me - "I have a cunning plan M'Lord!"
It was casting type black magic voodoo stuff - I think. If you look at the plan, the wall thickness through the cut-out section of that block is pretty consistent. It might have been to keep from getting voids in those areas as the casting cooled and the liquid brass froze. I doubt that it was to use less brass in the casting, if you were making a gazillion of these engines then yeah you'd want to save the pennies and use less brass. But in the onesy-twosy quantities that they made these engines they'd just pass the extra expense along to the customer - somehow.
Don
Ah more information......Hi Dan,
I am assuming the same connecting rod is connecting the steam piston and the water piston so how does it connect to the pin?
How can the big end conrod bearing be changed? I spotted a split crankshaft engine made to use roller bearings the split was to be able to get the bearings on. So could the sliding box be an access point for the conrod bearing?
Cheers Dan
Chris, I was a Marine Engineer and worked on 900mm bore Sulzer engines which are the closest thing to a large steam engine built today. I have looked at lots of books on large engines and that is a feature that I have never seen.Hi Dan,
The main difference between this type of engine and a ships engine is the starting load and the fact that not much load or no load is used on the end of the shaft. All the main load is in the center of the shaft. My guess is the big pin you posted on the Alias engine is in the center of the crank so it has to share some of the load from the other two pistons.
I am not buying the alignment theory as lots of large engines were built without this feature.
Cheers Dan
the beds could be aligned to each other.
Thanks Dan! That Sulzer is a beast!the beds could be aligned to each other.
Chris, the beds have to be aligned!!
I have taken crankshaft deflection readings on a Sulzer. There is a witness mark on the crank webs to locate a dial indicator. The crank is rotated so the marks just clear the conrod and the indicator is attached and the crank is rotated away from the rod until the indicator is almost touching the other side of the rod. The readings are compared to the readings taken when the engine was erected. This checks how much the crankshaft has bent in service.
I think the box joint was to keep the crankshaft from twisting or bending. My guess is that if a solid crankshaft was used it would have to be even larger to accommodate the forces of the pump plungers.
Cheers Dan
Edit: here is a Sulzer a bit larger than the ones I worked on:
https://www.autoblog.com/photos/w-rtsil-sulzer-rta96-c/#slide-1755060 (https://www.autoblog.com/photos/w-rtsil-sulzer-rta96-c/#slide-1755060)
Soldering jig looks great! :cheers:
I have just dispatched 2 of my peskiest shop gnomes in a very rusted 1961 Ford Falcon with iffy piston rings , 17 litres of oil, and 147 pounds of roasted peanuts. Rochester or bust, they said. Could mean they are looking for a strip club rather than Rochester, or will be by with your peanuts in a few days (or months, in that car) :cheers:
PS do keep the gnomesifwhen they arrive........ :Lol:
Very well thought out jig Dog, you never cease to amaze me…….. :Love:Thanks Don - we'll see how well it holds up to the torch!
:drinking-41:
Don
Hi Chris, a very ingenious jig for a complex part. Do you have to use centre pop marks or something similar in the edge of the narrow strips to establish the necessary gap for the silver solder?Hi MJM, for the joints where the edges of the raw bar stock edges butt up against another bar, milled surface or not, the raw edges have enough of a radius and are uneven enough along the length that the solder has a place to wick to. For places like the ends, a center punch mark will give the tiny gap needed, like you say. Too tight a joint wont let the solder wick in, and it just pools at the surface of the joint, better to have it flow in. The narrow strips I am using are tool steel bars, with rolled-out shapes that are not hugely precise (tiny-ly precise?) The larger flat bars are ground and the ends are milled, so they fit tight without the center marks.
Looking forward to seeing how it performs.
With your upcoming visit to the full size engines, I had better hurry up and put together that post on the pulsation dampeners. To put some pressure on myself, look for it in the next couple of days.
Amazing how time moves in lockdown.
MJM460
This engine didn't look quite so complex when I first saw it,Well it sure looked complex to me, when I saw your early introductory pictures!
How often did they shut down each of the engines? Filling those oilers under motion would be tricky.Yeah, a good trick to play on the new apprentice! Since they were pumping to a reservoir or water tower, they could shut down periodically. I took a bunch of pictures when I was there, but now I realize how much I missed, lot more angles to photograph next visit.
Back on the crankshaft joints on the Allis and Holly engines, I did come across this picture showing the connection on the HP cylinder crank on the Allis engine, you can see the square hole and the gaps at the inner/outer ends quite clearly.
(https://i.postimg.cc/9FC307pX/IMG-2336.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/MKjScRfg/Crank-Drag-Box2.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/1t5S4jDK/Crank-Drag-Box.jpg)
So, anyone out there who can give a good explanation of what this feature is all about? Free shop gnomes to anyone who does. Whats that? Oh, okay, free shop gnome capture and removal then!!
Chris, Are you near this engine? Great photo's ....The build is just epic....that's a big engine on those tools.For the Holly engine in Buffalo, I'm only an hour away. Normally they had arranged for tours open to the public once a year. But, covid ended that last year, and since then the man who arranged things with the water authority (who own the place) has passed away, so they are not sure what will happen next time we are not in pandemic situation. I've been in contact with the guy who got me the plans, and he will let me know next time there is an open house. So far I've only been able to get in to se the Holly engines once. I was really lucky on the Marion shovel, that is only 15 minutes away. Once I knew it was there, at least!
Dave
Giving the joints some compliance without metal fatigue is about the only thing that makes sense to me too.Back on the crankshaft joints on the Allis and Holly engines, I did come across this picture showing the connection on the HP cylinder crank on the Allis engine, you can see the square hole and the gaps at the inner/outer ends quite clearly.
Chris, Nice photo I have to remind myself that the square brass part is 15" square while looking at it. I have been thinking about this and there is a big difference between this type of large engine and large ships engines either steam or diesel that I did not think of.
Large ship engines are built on a bedplate that is a casting or a series of castings bolted together. This gives a very strong and rigid way to attach the main crankshaft bearings. The modern Sulzer engines have a welded bedplate but it is just as strong and rigid.
There are three separate bedplates for the Holly engine and then another three bedplates supported by the lower A-frames that have the main crankshaft bearings. Now, this might be strong but the crankshaft forces have a much longer moment arm or lever to the fixed bedplates.
I think the crankshaft would have to be much stiffer to resist deflection without the drag box which makes the crankshaft two pieces so the bending force is not transmitted through the box joint.
Cheers Dan
...."square hole and the gaps at the inner/outer ends quite clearly"..... :insane: ......No - see the drawings in the post three posts back that Dan re-showed from a post I did last week - it shows the internals of the joint, on one half of the crank web set its definitely a seperate moveable piece, with gaps in the inner/outer faces so it can move. That is for the Allis engine, and I have found the same setup in the Holly engine too. The box fits snug in the rotation direction, but is loose in the other direction, so it does not bounce like a loose dog clutch could.
Could these be square covers over round pin/bush holes?
Loose square pegs in square holes would be non-rotational or flog :facepalm: sh*t out of the rotating clearance elements in pretty short time
Derek
Chris, Are you near this engine? Great photo's ....The build is just epic....that's a big engine on those tools.For the Holly engine in Buffalo, I'm only an hour away. Normally they had arranged for tours open to the public once a year. But, covid ended that last year, and since then the man who arranged things with the water authority (who own the place) has passed away, so they are not sure what will happen next time we are not in pandemic situation. I've been in contact with the guy who got me the plans, and he will let me know next time there is an open house. So far I've only been able to get in to se the Holly engines once. I was really lucky on the Marion shovel, that is only 15 minutes away. Once I knew it was there, at least!
Dave
For the Boston, Allis, engine, near-ish - its a six hour drive from home to Boston. I have a couple more trips to Maine ( two states north of Boston) this summer/fall, and I have arranged with the museum director to stop in on my next trip by to visit the engine again, he is going to take me down to the pump level and up the top catwalks too, which will be an amazing treat. Part sightseeing for me, part tutorial on steam engines for him, we both win.
That's cool! Engine with a U joint in the middleWell, sorta, with a VERY small travel!
sorta
Dave
Nice find thanks to the gent who found it.Lets see, grab railing, lean over, touch bearing, burn hand, grab that hand with other one, losing grip on railing, fall into the crankshaft.... :o
Speaking of hot bearings on vintage large engines.... well the only way to detect the bearing temperature on the engine was to touch the bearing!!! Notice the missing paint on the vertical rail support near the main bearing, just where you would hang on to touch the bearing.
The big end bearing of the conrod was checked by touching it as it passed by to check for a hot bearing. Needless to say, this was somewhat dangerous and more than one engineer was missing a finger or two.
Cheers Dan
A long process for these frames.To badly paraphrase a well known aphorism - You're about to see the light at the top of the tower!
QuoteA long process for these frames.To badly paraphrase a well known aphorism - You're about to see the light at the top of the tower!
Then you can take pride in another job well done and a big step forward in the larger job. :cheers:
Chris you mention that you are almost ready for painting those - but I must admit that I thought that the guide part in the middle should be worked on in the mill to ensure a flat even surface on those ...?Hi Per,
Per
After you add the penthouse apartment floor at the top for the elves, will it still fit through that door?They prefer a nest like squirrels make, but they use steel wool rather than leaves. :Lol:
that looks great Chris! It's really coming along
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:Angry nasty hungry mean shop gnome launching CNR's way now off the gnome-apult.... TWANG!! Splat! Oooops, tree.... :LittleDevil:>>>>>>>>>>>BAD PUN ALERT<<<<<<<<<<WOOT WOOT WOOT>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Be sure and post some photos of those next parts, K? (sorry) :Lol:
That's looking amazing Chris! Are you going to steam her or just air?. That isana.Zingly large engine with Sherline equipment!!!!! :cheers: :AllHailTheKing: :popcornsmall:I don't have a boiler that would be suitable for this engine, unless I tapped into the Lombard or Mann engine. Am planning just to run it on compressed air. I'll hide air lines direct to the other two cylinders, with needle valves to balance the flows, in the receiver tanks between the cylinders. To keep it looking interesting I may leave off some or all of the lagging on the cylinder level, it makes the engine look like an apartment block (for elves) with all the lagging panels in place. These engines ran slow, in the 12 to 20 rpm range, so hopefully with the large flywheels it will purr along.
Well...if a certain 9 or 12 lathe needs to be used...let me know....I know a guy..... 8)Isn't the old movie quote something like 'I know a guy who knows a guy who killed a guy...' ? :Lol:
Canada itself was pretty steamy last week, let alone any pumping engines or cars. Head being scratched as we speak. :Lol:The temperatures were in mid 90's when I left home in upstate NY, by the time I got to Maine it was low 70s. On Monday though, even Maine was a steambath!
sounds like you had an interesting trip! :cheers:
I'm still following and enjoying :praise2: :praise2: :wine1: Your pause will allow me to catch up properly. That slitting saw looks quite vicious ::) Do you get much chatter with the widely spaced teeth?That saw is a fairly small diameter, a little smaller than the gear cutters, so the teeth are not that far apart, and its quite rigid, its 1/16" thick. Using it in brass it cuts very clean and smooth, no chatter. I used a medium speed and fed slow - it threw off fine powdery chips.
What a splendid trip :) :) :) :wine1:Just measured, its 2" diameter, 1/8" long teeth. Still aggressive, but it cuts great. If it was thinner I think it would flex.
Ah, so the teeth are smaller than I thought, scale is always difficult to perceive :headscratch:
My thing is to have actually driven a Sentinel Steam Wagon :) :) I was warned not to rely on the steam brake cylinder as it took a while to warm up, stop condensing the steam and apply pressure to the brake linings. At the same transport festival ( Crich Tramway museum) I was also challenged to drive a double decker bus (Bristol FLF driver trainer) up the quarry and back, the first time using the clutch to change gear, the second time without the clutch, each crunch was a pint to the owner :) :wine1: :old:Great site!
https://www.tramway.co.uk/ (https://www.tramway.co.uk/)
Great pics Chris! looks like an excellent trip and a lot of fun. Thanks for posting the photos. :cheers:I was wearing a baseball cap and went for some fried Haddock, not close enough, eh?
oh, when looking across at Canada, did you have a sudden urge to eat poutine or a peameal/back bacon sandwich, wear a toque, and add the saying "eh?" to every sentence? Or compare snowmobile specs with your neighbour? No? maybe you weren't lookin long enough, eh? :Lol:
Hey Chris
The barring engine, or wheel in this case, wasn't used to get the engine off dead center....They would use starting valves for that which were live steam fed manually into the either the IP or LP cylinder when the engine was on HP TDC or BDC.. but a good engineer would never stop it there....but thats something else
The Barring engine or wheel was used to push condensate out of cylinders without starting the engine. This would allow the condensate to exit the condensate valves slow enough to not hammer the cylinder heads and blow them off.
We would do this to good effect on Sabino when she was started cold, and the 750 HP tug engine when we got it running.
Dave
Hey Chris
The barring engine, or wheel in this case, wasn't used to get the engine off dead center....They would use starting valves for that which were live steam fed manually into the either the IP or LP cylinder when the engine was on HP TDC or BDC.. but a good engineer would never stop it there....but thats something else
The Barring engine or wheel was used to push condensate out of cylinders without starting the engine. This would allow the condensate to exit the condensate valves slow enough to not hammer the cylinder heads and blow them off.
We would do this to good effect on Sabino when she was started cold, and the 750 HP tug engine when we got it running.
Dave
Ah! Great info! Will add that to my somewhat porous info bank!
A cylinder drain at the bottom of a vertical cylinder could drain that end, but I never thought about the upper end, or would it need turning to get both ends cleared? So it would be barred around at least a full turn?
I recall seeing drains on the receivers between the cylinders on the big pumping engines, lots could condense there too.
On the Lombard we would run a short time with the drains open when starting, thats on a horizontal engine.
:cheers: :cheers:
I've got some pics of the engine room....I mean the parts you CANT see...send me your email, and I'll send them overSent!
Dave
On with the thread....
Looks O'K' to me. :Lol::ThumbsUp:
Ian.
Hey Chris!
Thanks for vindicating my thoughts on that addition.
My tour guide was pretty adamant that, the extra gearing was to drive an auxiliary oil pump.
I tried to get him to think about it logically (just the gearing alone wouldn't make sense!) but