Model Engine Maker
Engines => From Kits/Castings => Topic started by: scc on September 27, 2021, 07:10:05 PM
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Just a quick intro to my next project. A new venture for me.......castings! My Burrell used lots of them but they were big and easy to hold. It is a good job that I have been following Jo's excellent tutorials. I have a few tidying jobs in the shop first and then off we go. Terry
Edited by Jo: Corrected Title Spelling ::)
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Hi Terry
I will be pulling up a chair and following along.
Dave
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Yep Ike Dave I will be following you also Terry!…..
:popcornsmall:
Don
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8) Nice one Terry,
Looking through my notes on this engine I found something that claims there may be a couple of drawing corrections:
The engine has two side rods connected by a bridle beneath the table. From here, a single short connecting rod goes down to the big end. As drawn, the bridle would have struck the top of the crankshaft bearing. I had to lengthen the short rod, and shorten the side rods by about a quarter of an inch. This now meant that the bridle hit the underside of the the table. The table top was duly excavated to make room. Actually, this no bad thing, as the table tops on full size table engines were assemble from five castings, and were in fact hollow.
The side rods, as drawn, would not pass the exhaust belt, of through the slots either side of the cylinder top. I kept the "fish bellied" profile, but filed flats on each side to give clearance. It sounds like a bodge, but in fact it looks quite good, and I have seen something like it in full size, just for the decorative effect.
The positioning of the little brackets that carry the shaft drive for the governor is a bit vague. In the end, I fixed mine to the foundation block, not the engine bed plate.
The starting levers are quite unlike the original drawings. With the levers in front of you, the left hand one, which disconnects the valve gear from the eccentric, is connected to the eccentric rod buy a parallelogram of levers. Lift the lever, and the slide valve is free to be moved. The right hand lever is to do the moving. It is held in the valve shaft by a taper, and could be removed for safety once the engine had started. If the parallelogram of levers, previously mentioned, are correctly proportioned, then the left hand lever does not move when the engine is in motion. I found this quite a surprise, but it means that it does not present a hazard.
Best to be aware of them before you start ::) and I have attached some picture of the original engraving of this engine
Jo
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Glad to have you following along Dave and Don, but don't expect rapid progress! This is very new teritory for me.....small and fiddly, The drawing even shows some 14ba bolts :o
Jo, Thank You for your detailed response. Valueable info indeed. I'd heard rumours of drawing errors. Those etchings are great and make the drawings much easier to follow, I have printed them off for the workshop wall and inspiration :facepalm2:
Thanks again Terry
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This is very new teritory for me.....small and fiddly, The drawing even shows some 14ba bolts :o
:headscratch: I found a few 12BA but not 14's. If you don't like 14BA then 1mm might be easier to come by.
I keep wanting to make my one of these ... you have got me tempted :thinking:.
Jo
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Terry
How large is this engine? The diameter of the flywheel would be useful.
I will follow, every so often, with interest.
AVTUR
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Jo, it would be good if you made one.......I could follow along and see how it's done :Lol: None of my usual suppliers even list 14ba, 12 being their usual limit.
Avtur, welcome along, I think the flywheel is about 9 1/2 inches dia. Terry
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OH DEAR, I have just noticed that I spelt the title completely incorrectly :embarassed: :embarassed: It should read "MURDOCH"
Apologies Terry
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OH DEAR, I have just noticed that I spelt the title completely incorrectly :embarassed: :embarassed: It should read "MURDOCH"
All sorted ;)
Jo
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OH DEAR, I have just noticed that I spelt the title completely incorrectly :embarassed: :embarassed: It should read "MURDOCH"
All sorted ;)
Jo
Almost, the R is now there, but the K at the end should be an H?
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:facepalm: Done that as well.
I have just found someone admiring his set of these castings. :thinking: He claims it takes up a large amount of his Casting cupboard relative to what it is. I am increasingly becoming concerned about the amount of space required in the house for all the finished model engines and this one is not small :o
Jo
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Probably need to update cache as it's right in the headings down the left of page only K in the thread.
14BA are not that easily found at least if you want them in steel, I cad a quick look over the drawings and could not easily spot them so assume there ate only a few required in which case you may be better off making yourself.
Out of interest what is the date of your drawings, it could be now that Blackgates are doing the castings there have been some changes possibly as 12ba was a bit tight in places. Also awaiting to hear what the castings machine like as the old Clarkson ones had a reputation for being a bit chilled particularly the two tal thin crosshead guides, hopefully the Blackgates ones will be OK.
Overall height is about 18"
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These are an original Clarkson :facepalm2: set, with the Drawings dated 1971.
Jo
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I first fell in love with this engine back around 1968, and had a Clarkson GA of it for many years. As with so many things, it never happened, and by the time I was in a position to build one, Clarksons had long gone. When I heard that Blackgates were supplying now, my interest was reawakened, but you lot have put me right off. All this talk of 14BA and 12BA screws! I've long had a personal rule - nothing smaller than 6BA, indeed 5BA for preference.
I shall read the build logs with interest though.
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I am not worried about the small stuff. It looks like they can all be done by through holes and bolts if you want (I will be studding) :)
Jo
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I have just found a picture of the original model from 1932 (attached). Clarkson's purchased the rights to market the model ;)
Jo
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Thank you Jo for the spelling correction(s) Well I have made a start by squaring up the bedplate casting to provide a datum. As you can see in the second photo the endmiil decided to drop out of the collet :facepalm: Never happened on barstock of course, only on a one off casting.....JB required. I drilled and tapped the four main holes and screwed on two bits of scrap to enable a good hold on the mill. I don't think the whole top surface needed machining, just the column and bearing mounting cutterpoints. However I followed the drawing and brought it all down to thickness. Jo, I agree with the through holes but I think I too will use studs. I'm undecided on the wedges as I will have to buy a dovetail cutter >:(
Jason, the only hard stuff on this first casting was the edges of the flash which would not file off. needed a touch with the Dremel.
Casting age is unknown but puchased last year. The pair of upright crosshead guides are brand new,recently supplied by Blackgates following a broken pattern. My drawing set is 1971/2 Terry
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Good start :)
I cannot remember if I ever used a dovetail cutter on these :thinking: It’s easy enough to make a cutter for the cotters/wedge slots ;)
Jo
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Yes a small flycutter type single point tool would do those undercuts for the wedges. Or as they are unlikely to really do anything you could make dummy wedges with a section of dovetail at the end and just parallel so it can be dropped into place.
Full size would only have machined the pads but sometimes if a model casting is a bit variable your method to do it all will tidy things up.
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Interesting to see the original casting set Jo. There are a couple of small differences to mine. It looks as though the main bearing caps used a different pattern, My set has a much smaller length of gunmetal for the bearings, and you have a set of bevel gears for the governer. I was amazed to see how tall my main bearing castings are..it would do caps as well!
I admit gunmetel is a "new" material for me :-[.........anything I should know? Terry
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It's interesting that neither set of castings seem to be the correct shape to suit the drawings which show a profile like I have shown in green which is what is also shown on those images of the full size one and the 1932 model. Did Clarkson purchase the drawings and then make up their own simplified castings?
Gunmetal can be soft so take care when holding in teh chuck etc that you don't make finished surfaces but does depend on the actual alloy.
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I was planning on making Jason’s day and making replacement main bearings out of bar stock :-X The trick to getting the correct profile is to take a bigger piece of steel. Drill two holes the diameter of the half round profile at the correct centre distance, mill these to half width then silver solder in two pieces of rod.
As Jason has said some of the castings look like they were not originally castings and clarkson made patterns for them.
Mine also came without the gears but then I got lucky and I acquired that set with another partial set of clarkson castings that had gears with it and knew that they were not for that engine and got lucky ;D
Jo
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The terminology “steeple” has me a bit confused. My only reference is to a “steeple quad” engine that was installed in a steam driven tugboat. Obviously this engine is quite different.
Trying to remember the specifics of the “steeple quad” I refer too; I believe it was a triple expansion engine with the cylinders stacked on top of each other, with the two low pressure cylinders occupying the base.
I was planning on researching this engine for a possible build, but I forgot all about it. I’ll need to keep this idea in my back pocket.
Though the engine of this thread is obviously not the one I was thinking of, it certainly does look interesting. I’ll need to follow along with this build.
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Yes there is always scope to add your own touches as the castings if you wish which may have been "adjusted" to suit production methods or the original details were not present. Soldering up as Jo mentions is probably the easiest though you can cut the profile from a block of cast iron if you want to stick as close as possible to a casting set. Might even be possible to cut off the foot and use the castings you have got then join on a separate foot once the profile is cut with a couple of CSK screws from below with a tough of JBWeld.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/v156/jasonballamy/Tid30.JPG)
Also possible to save metal by drilling half a hole down the side of the block rather than a hole and milling some away, trick is to clamp both bearings together so you end up with half a hole in each and drill goes straight down.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Engineering/EastonandAnderson/.highres/IMAG0995.jpg)
Cutting from solid, I used the DRO but two passes with a roundover cutter may also work.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Engineering/EastonandAnderson/.highres/IMAG0787.jpg)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Engineering/EastonandAnderson/.highres/IMAG0789.jpg)
Talking of feet on the bearings the note under the description says 5/32" packing and drawing shows 3/16. Should be whatever the thickness of your now machined casting is (3/16") if main foundation is to be the same height as outrigger foundation
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The terminology “steeple” has me a bit confused. My only reference is to a “steeple quad” engine that was installed in a steam driven tugboat. Obviously this engine is quite different.
You are right Craig, this is a Table engine not a Steeple - which has the cylinder on the floor and all the mechanism above it. For some reason Clarksons called it their "Steeple" engine and the name stuck.
If you look at the original 1932 photo you will see it called a Table Engine :).
Jo
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I might have found a missing bit :noidea:. I cannot seem to find this bearing stand anywhere on the drawings.
Jo
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It's those dodgy metric drawings of yours :LittleDevil:
Also the source of the 14BA fixings ;)
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I have got to the source of the problem: I have two different sets of Clarkson Drawings :ShakeHead:. The original Blue prints show the bracket. The normally printed ones do not and they have duplicated some of the valve gear parts (slightly differently).
I also noted that the main bearing was taller on one set of drawings. I need to go through these with a fine :wine1: and see if I can find any more variations.
Jo
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Thanks folks for your inputs. It looks as though some calculations will be needed to ensure it all fits together before cutting metal. I wonder if Craig's "steeple" engine was one of these? a Willans triple expansion stacked up and looking church steeple like. All three pistons fixed to a hollow piston rod and the piston valves within :o can rev to 500rpm. I don't think it would make a good model as all the moving bits are enclosed. Photo from George Watkins book "the stationary steam engine" Terry
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There you go....open the image & it is a vertical engine :wine1: ...I do not understand why the thumbnail persists to be on it's side :killcomputer:
Is this a twin cylinder steam engine driving a DC generator?
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Bit more than a twin, I suppose you might call it a twin triple tandem compound as it has two sets of triple compound cylinders in a tandem (axial) alinement so six cylinders in total
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Made a start on the columns, set up in the 4jaw on the little Clarke, machined all the round bits and finished the ends to length. I had already marked out and centre drilled the small ends. There was a chucking spigot on the large end.......took a load of photos and tried to upload last night :headscratch: Earlier I had removed the camera battery to recharge forgetting that when battery is replaced everything reverts to original settings which are not pc friendly :cussing: so no pics. I milled the ends to size today as seen in these new pics. Simply set the cutter to centre level then drop the table half the dimension required. Both ends now done. I was surprised by the amount of metal that needed removal, but the castings machined very well. I shall leave the flutes as they are...maybe a little smoothing. Terry
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Shame about the camera - but at least you got shoptime :ThumbsUp:
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Well, the columns as you show them now look great! I'm sorry we didn't get to see the other work on this though.
There is often tools you can use on a PC to convert the raw images from a camera to JPG. What format does your camera store pics in by default? If it's just a size thing then there are definitely many tools available to re-size (that is, if you're interested anyway :)).
Kim
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Cheers Folk! Found the flatest surface and cleaned up with a light milling. I then turned it over to mill the base. This and the top flange both need a lot of thinning to get the piece to final size. The top will need a small end mill to navigate round all the "lumps", not looking forward to that stage. Terry
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Morning Terry, you are making good progress on your "Steeple" :).
I don't normally use a milling cutter to clean up castings. Just hand files, a Dremel and sometimes my old hand engraver to encourage bits out of the corners ;)
Jo
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I was about to say similar. Unless the casting is very over size I would have expected the machining to be minimal only needing to flatten the bottom so it sits well on the columns and then on the top just the central pad for the cylinder and the two for the crosshead guides (steeples) and probably a spot face for the 4 nuts
Or are you just thinking of taking a pass around the outside of the flanges to straighten them out as shown in green in which case you can just file the internal corners square rather than use small cutters
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I would agree but....... The dimension from the bottom face (top of columns) to the mounting face for the crosshead guides is shown as 0.75"
I have already machined the bottom face as much as I dare.....0.072"thick on the flange. When I measure from this face to the top I get 0.855".
If I then remove the 0.105" reqd the top flange will be too thin. :shrug: It may be possible to further reduce the bottom flange AND modify the bottom of the crosshed guides :thinking: otherwise some adjustment of upper dimensions will be required. Terry
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I see what you are dealing with now. Another option would be to clean up the cross head mounting pads and then turn it over and machine the bottom flange right off to give a thickness of 0.688" and then add a new flange from 1/16" thick material. This may well be quicker and easier than trying to mill all round the top features and still end up with a thin top flange.
Interesting to look at the general arrangement drawing which seems to shows a narrower portion below the bottom flange. But then again that also shows the usual 24 flutes to the columns so don't know how well that relates to what you actually get.
What does your casting look like it will machine to Jo? assuming you are allowed to touch it.
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I'd leave it where it is Terry.
If you recall there are some known "features" on this engine one of which is the crank hits the bottom of that plate and it is suggested we grind a bit underneath so it clears so a bit more space is worth keeping for now :)
Write yourself a note and keep it with it (or on it) to remind you that it is over thick and by how much ;)
Jo
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I think I will go with that Jo :ThumbsUp: Terry
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I was just allowed another look at the casting ::)
The key distance is from where the cylinder sits to the bottom of the cross head guide. It looks like you just need to make the top flat where the cross head guide goes so it is at the same height as the outer surface of the layer you were measuring to and then take the top surface down so it is the required 7.14mm up. There looks to be a couple of mm spare :)
Jo
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You would probably want to check that the cross head does not bottom out in the slot if making the distance from crankshaft to guides plus 0.105", or at the very least does run equally to each end. This would also affect eccentric rod length, overall height of governor assembly, etc as you are changing the height above the base for the shaft and bracket mounting. Also if cylinder is sitting higher up you will want to look at piston rod length so you don't hit a cylinder cover.
Would be worth drawing out the basic overall heights of the parts and checking for clearances etc at TDC and BDC so it does not come back to bit you at a later stage. If you only have pencil and paper then make the conrod assembly from a separate bit of card so you can try it at different positions over the main drawing, ditto eccentric rod.
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Thanks people :cheers: Terry
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Recent activity has been to level the bases for the crosshead guides and machine to width, carefully working from a centre line. I could not resist resting the bits in place . Terry
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What a fine looking engine that will be! :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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An update........In view of my basic marking-out equipment, ageing eyesight, etc. I have made a drilling guide for the 10ba fixings at the base of the crosshead guides. The chance of "spotting-thro" is minimal and I need things to line up. The holes were drilled using the dials on the mill rather than measuring. The the jig was carefully lined up and holes drilled (tapping size) When the frames are done the same jig will be used.
I suspect that little shop time will occur for the rest of the year :( My wife's business has already become manic in the run-up to Christmas, taking most of my home time. Terry
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Drilling jigs are a reliable way of achieving lined up holes :ThumbsUp: It is worth marking them so you know which way round they go ::)
Jo
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I did stamp it Jo, after the photo......R, L, UP :) Terry
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If you recall there are some known "features" on this engine one of which is the crank hits the bottom of that plate - Jo
Has a compilation of these special "features" been collected by anyone, such as Alan Stepney did once upon a time?
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Hello,
I am new to this forum.
I have a set of Murdoch & Aitken castings in stock as the next project after I finished my Stuart No1.
One problem of the casting is the hardness of the thinner parts.
I have annealed some castings in the past, but I am not sure if I used the correct procedure.
Does anyone has experience in annealing castings?
I used a temperature of 700drgC and a cooldown gradient of 50drgC an hour.
If anyone has correct figures I will be very please before I spoil my castings.
With kind regards,
Double Dutch
Learn from other men’s mistakes, you will never get old enough to make them all by yourself.
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DD, Have a look at this recent post, you want teh temp a bit higher.
https://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,10596.0.html
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Put them in the fire at the end of the evening, covering them up with glowing embers. Go to bed. When you rake out the fire in the morning, they will be annealed.
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I wish :disappointed: Our house is in a Conservation Area with a smokeless zone so NO fires :Mad: Our previous house (33yrs ago) had a Rayburn which would have been ideal. Progress? Terry
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Hello
I had just contact with Graham from the Alyn Foundry.
He advices to heat up a little above 750dgrC and let it cool down as slow as possible
Our chemical department at work has a large oven which easily reaches 1500dgrC.
I will keep you updated.
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Did you look at the link Jason posted above? 750 might be a bit low.
Dave
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I found an article about the Murdorch and Aitken from ME Juli 1979
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Thank you, Double Dutch, an interesting article but does nothing for my confidence :o My wife's business has gone much quieter since this latest Covid development so I have been able to escape to the shed albeit briefly. I had a bit of a tidy up of the columns and set the entablature up on the four jaw to machine for the cylinder spigot. Next job will be to progress attatching the base, columns and entablature together.
Terry
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Hi Terry,
nice set up.
I am quietly following along.
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Morning Terry, I've just dug out my ME that contains that article to see if the pictures are any better and they are. The article jumps around a bit :headscratch: he starts off by describing running problems - this is actually a good sign as it tells us the engine actually runs :ThumbsUp: I suspect he was running it too fast these are slow running engines.
Then he describes the known problem with Clarkson castings that some were made of some real :censored: stuff and rather hard. A bit of heat treatment on hardened castings and the use of a modern, preferably, carbide milling cutter will sort that. Blackgates foundries are rather better than the one Clarkson used.
Not sure about the crosshead hitting the pillars - I have seen a number of these and discussed them with their builders: no one has mentioned it hitting the columns :noidea: .
The last bit of the article he talks about making a driving pulley - clearly missed that it is an early engine and these had a square shaft that would go through a wall into the main workshop area to drive the line shafts.
We all unintentionally add our own features to our engines and find ourselves having to overcome them ::)
Jo
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Thanks for the interest Achim & Jo :cheers:
Jo, as yet I have had no Hard castings, but not got to small bits yet. Terry
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Presumably the castings described in the article will have been from Clarksons. I hope the modern ones are better, but has anyone done anything to improve the patterns?
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The pattern for the cross head guides is new as it had been broken. I had to wait a long time after the main castings arrived before I received these. I can only assume mine are recent Blackgate castings but I have nothing to compare them with. Some of the pattern "split lines" are not perfectly alligned. Overall they are adequate but not up to the quality of the Burrell ones I received from John Rex / Live Staem Models. But they were much bigger. Terry
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I know not what order of build would be followed by others, neither do I follow a planned path myself :facepalm2: I was going ot start on the crank asembly but decided to fasten the entablature to the pillars first. (Those of you who know the engine will wonder about the hole on the centre of the entablature...simply a cock-up.....I was on "autopilot" Fortunately realised in time to machine a recess for the cylinder base spigot. The cylinder base is blind so it is of no consequence.) Setting up entailed LOTS of measuring, mucking about with squares and straight edges to confirm my marking out, etc. Finally holes were drilled, tapped and studded. Time will tell if the moving bits line up ok. I also milled out the apertures for the connecting rods. Terry
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Good to see some more progress recently.
I think a lot of the time we can simply make whet bit we fancy or have the materials for. Though there are certain items that are best done in sequence, for example any small items that may have a reamed hole and mating turned part I always try and do the hole first and then use that to gauge the size of the mating part. Once things bet bigger I mat work the other way round eg make the crankshaft and then bore the bearings and flywheel to fit that - the flywheel being a fractionally tighter fit than the bearings as we want the shaft to rotate in the bearings and not play in the flywheel due to an oversize fit.
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Which ever order Terry it looks good to me. Still following your progress.
Don
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Cheers Jason and Don :cheers: Terry
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Annealed the casting in an oven at our chemical department at work.
I used 800 dgrC and let it slowly cool down over the night, so fingers crossed
After Annealing I sandblasted the castings
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Fingers crossed indeed. I look forward to watching progress. :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: Terry
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My wife and I are just recovering from the worst "common cold" of our lives, convinced it was covid we kept on testing but all negative. As a result minimum shed progress. I did make a start on fabricating the main bearings but put them down to make the crankshaft. ( it seemed an easier task for a fuzzy head) Straightforward turning with a bit of milling at one end. I know it's a small endmill for the job but it was all I had.
Hopefully more progress soon :) Terry
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Pleased to hear you are both feeling better again Terry and you are back on your engine :)
Jo
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Cheers Jo :cheers:
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It would be nice to report lots of progress, etc, but life has a habbit of getting in the way. Busy at work..(should I still be there at 76?). We have completely rebuilt our kitchen, and also prepared our campervan for the season. I used to be able to cope with stuff like this much more quickly :old: However I did get to the shed today and started on the flywheel. So far no hardspots :) I was going to bore the centre but decided on the set up pictured...turn the flywheel by manually and feed the reamer by the tailstock. It worked fine. I shall broach the keyway as soon as the wheel is finish machined. Hopefully progress has restarted albeit slowly. Terry
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Nice job on the flywheel.
And at 76? No - should be playing more in the shop, house, camping!
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BUT.....Three short (5hr) days per week on vintage machinery. I could be volounteering somewhere to do the same but not get paid!
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BUT.....Three short (5hr) days per week on vintage machinery. I could be volounteering somewhere to do the same but not get paid!
Oh, well thats not 'working'! I was thinking (shudder) about being in an office... Ick!
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I have managed to grab a little shed time and have cut the flywheel keyway. Set up to end mill the slot in the crankshaft but ran out of time :'(
At best I may be able progress a bit more at the weekend.. :) terry
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Busy at work..(should I still be there at 76?). We have completely rebuilt our kitchen Terry
To answer your question…. NO, you should not. Rebuild a kitchen? Many years ago I jacked the house up to replace some sills that had rotted out. Today, I call a repairman when the dryer goes on the fritz. At 75, I just don’t have the pizaz I used to have.
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Craig - couldn't agree more, happened to me too, am 76 in May, getting old is tough! Mind is willing, body is weak and tired.
Chris
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Found time to cut the keyway in the crankshaft, then made the eccentric. I have also fitted a depth guage on the tailstock. To suppliment the graduated handle on the mill I use this for the Z axis. Having started on the crankshaft bearings I cocked up (again) and will start again soon.
Terry
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Usual routine for the crankshaft bearings, making the split brasses first. The only material in stock was a bit too big, however I soldered two bits together and made a start. Terry
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My shed session started wll enough :) the scrap bin yielded some bits to make the bearing "pillars". To avoid previous mistakes I decided to position the holes using dials on the mill. I then discovered that the x dial indicator was miss-reading. I set up the independent dial to check.....0.1" on this dial compared with a reading of 0.91" on the fixed one :cussing: A factor in my earlier cock ups. Dial in the bin I moved on. My next discovery was that my machine vice was allowing my part to "tip" slightly and produce a few thou taper :cussing: :cussing: Another lesson, learned the part was clamped direct to the bed after the vice was removed. I am annoyed that this is all basic stuff that I ought to have known. Looking forward to better progress :) I also need to upgrade my end mill stock as most of the cheapies have not survived the Burrell and Charlesworth builds. Terry
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Never funny to discover that you can't trust your tools :wallbang:
But now you know what not to trust - are any of those reasonable to cure / easy fixes ?
Per
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Sorted Per, The faulty dial has been scrapped, the original leadscrew dials have been checked against a known gauge and are ok. I can work with the vice "tip" now that I know about it.
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A bit more done today, bottom bearing pillar ready to silver solder. Top to do now. Terry
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Been playing in the shed again...... finished the crankshaft bearings, machined the crank and cut the base plate. Could not resist bolting together. I then realised that having drilled, reamed and taper pinned the crank to the shaft it has to come off again to fit the eccentric and the bevel gear. :Mad: Not many pics as my setups are very basic and there are lots of proper stuff to see elsewhere on this great forum. Terry
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That's starting to look a bit more like an engine now :)
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Hey Terry,
I'm really enjoying following your build here. I've always loved the steeple engine!
Thanks for continuing to share your work! :popcorn:
Kim
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I have decided to leave the crankshaft for the time being and have started on the crosshead guides. As they need to be an exact pair a jig is essential. They are extremely tricky to hold. The flash was removed by Dremel and angle grinder :o Several hard spots as expected. The bases on both guides have now been machined square and to size. Using the same jig I aim to mill the vertical slot and bring it to thickness. I already have a jig for drilling the base fixing holes. Earlier this year I had a bout of dis-interest and stopped :shrug: Happily now back on it and enjoying the process. Thanks to all. Terry
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Moving swiftly on......I set up the guide in my jig, marked out and drilled two holes for the slot ends then set to with a 5mm endmill. Opened out the slot to dimension and all worked well.
Next I needed to drill the base. I clamped my pre-drilled hole guide to the crosshead guide and then had to improvise :headscratch: Lacking anything better, I came up with the set-up in the photos! The process was to position as close as possible and clamp tight. Gentle taps with a hide hammer knocked things to where the drill bit would just slip into the hole without any deflection ;) Repeat for the 15 other holes.
Next up was to tap the 16 holes in the "table" 10ba. Busy with other stuff for the rest of the week , then camping at the weekend :whoohoo: :whoohoo: :whoohoo: Hopefully more progress next week. Terry
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Great to see you back on this build + that you found a renewed interest in it :cheers:
Per
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Cheers Per :cheers:
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Wow, quite a setup you used there in pics 5 & 6 to get at the ends of those castings! Looks like it would be a challenge to line up the spot for the hole!
Kim
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Yes it was a bit Kim! but gentle taps with the hide hammer brought the non-running drillbit so that it could be lowered into the jig hole concentrically. at that point start the machine and drill the hole.... with a 1.4mm drill you can see and feel it when it is not lined up.
I am sure that when Jo does her's she will have proper tooling for the job and we will see how it should be done. Terry
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I am sure that when Jo does her's she will have proper tooling for the job and we will see how it should be done. Terry
I will be digging out my old shaper box table ;)
Jo
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I decided to machine the big end rod next. Having been warned about it's crosshead hitting the table I thought it best to check. I don't "do" CAD so just used a pair of calipers. On my castings there would be interference if made to drawing. The solution would seem to be to mill a tad off the inside of the webs that form the underside of the table to enable the crosshead from the bigend rod to fit inside them. I will measure properly in case the rod needs to be shorter. Progress will be even slower soon as I have aquired two motorbikes to restore. Terry
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Today I made a start on the big end crosshead. Several methods, I settled for cutting from solid bar rather than fabrication. A bit of milling
and some filing.....mostly by eye as I do not like filing buttons. The two webs on the table were relieved and leaves enough clearance. Another measure tells me that bigend con rod is too long as drawn so will be made to suit. Terry
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The part looks fantastic, Terry! :popcorn:
But what causes your dislike of filing buttons? Just curious. I find that my eye isn't very round. I have much better luck using filing buttons myself. Must be my astigmatism! :Lol:
Kim
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Hi Kim, Thanks for your interest. Soft buttons are not a lot of use and hardened ones ruin files which are costly to replace. I take the easy way out and do it by eye ::). Parts end up adequate for my use as they not intended to appear at shows, etc. Regards Terry
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Soft buttons are not a lot of use and hardened ones ruin files which are costly to replace.
Interesting... I never thought about that before!
Thanks for taking the time to explain it to me :)
Kim
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It takes a good eye to hand file curves. Well done Terry :wine1:
For those who can't Soft and hard buttons....
I use soft buttons and I screw them tight against the item. Often I will use marker pen on the buttons and when filing try not to catch the buttons but use them as an indication that that bit doesn't need any more filing. Also as the additional width of the buttons means it supports the file and keeps the edge of the item square. Soft buttons can be used when you draw file across the item as well as following the curve :)
Hard buttons are used loose on an arbour: Because they are hard they must rotate away from the file when it tries to rub against it. What Ray has said about hard buttons wearing the files occurs if the buttons do not freely rotate and you cannot draw file the other way without risking damage :hellno:.
You an also use freely rotating soft buttons :)
I am sure Jason will be along in a mo to tell us all about using rotary tables ::)
Jo
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Rotary tables are so last century have you not heard of the new fangled CNC :Jester:
Must admit now that I also have the SX2.7 sitting in the workshop one of the rotary tables seems to live on that so it is quick and easy to use that for rounding over. And a carbide milling cutter will round off hard iron which would otherwise round over your file's teeth. The mechanical methods do also have the advantage of being able to round over solid items so you don't need a hole for a pin like you do with buttons
The one problem with buttons is that you can only roll the file on them for 180deg, a part like Terry shows has a longer arc which is not an issue when milling but means you start having to file across the buttons which will either wear if soft or muck up your files as he says.
I do still make use of buttons, I've never hardened them (also use loose)and they generally last for more than the job they were made for so can be kept in a box for future use and easy enough to knock up a pair of new ones from mild steel. Buttons also work well with a linisher but make sure you have them secure as they do spin up to quite a speed.
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Rotary tables are so last century have you not heard of the new fangled CNC :Jester:
...
I use CNC on my rotary table... Count Number Cranks, right?! :Jester:
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Last century maybe but that's when I did my engine fitter appreticeship. :old: Two years of filing / benchwork,etc., then shapers, vertical and horizontal boring machines and a huge variety of lathes.
There must have been milling machines but I don't recall seeing any and had no experience of them until aquiring my little Raglan. Hence my reluctance to do this little parts on the mill and stick to filing.
Thanks for the compliment Jo, but a hand finished part rarely compares well with a nicely machined one. I continue to delight in the craftsmanship that you all display. :Love: :popcorn: Terry
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I mentioned earlier that the big-end con rod was too long as drawn. I was wrong as the underside of the crosshead needs to clear the crank at bottom dead centre. I have noticed some errors on my build probably due to poor measuring >:( The engine has been dismantled, boxed and put away for a while as I continue camping and sort out my two mortobike rebuilds. As a result this thread is "on hold" for a while but will hopefully continue with renewed enthusiasm in the autumn. Cheers for now Terry
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Sorry to hear that Terry :( I hope you wrote down your findings so that you don't have to re-find them when you pick it up again.
You have not told us anything about your new bikes, it would be nice to find out a bit more about them :). In my younger days :old: I restored a few motorcycles of my own before someone (MEM member Old Bill) introduced me to model engineering :embarassed:.
Jo
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Cheers Jo, Nothing exotic I'm afraid, just a couple of 1963 Royal Enfield 250cc. Dismantled by their owner 45 yrs ago and dry strored ever since. A last (failed) attempt by Britain to fend off the imports.
I have owned nearly 30 bikes in my time but never an Enfield so will be a change. Terry
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As a Biker for Life (and never owned a car), I'm curious too - any pictures ?
45 years in dry storage æh - that is a long time, so even better if they are oiled (so to speak) ;)
Enjoy the time with this project too :cheers:
Per
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No pictures as yet Per. No, the bits have not been oiled :( so a bit of work ahead. Thanks for your interest. Terry
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I suppose A few pics of motorbike progress are in order in few of comments. An expensive exercise which is now on hold to allow my finances to catch up! This means I can continue with my "steeple" I have fetched out all the bits and had a little assembly just to get excited :LickLips: Next move is to re measure everything and then study Jo's excellent build. Progress is likely to be slow so don't wait up :headscratch: :old:
Terryy
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The Tank looks a bit strange (shape vise) in the picture - but other than some missing bits - everything in rather good condition :) :ThumbsUp:
One could be forgiven for thinking that a few days to put on all the rest + adjustments and she will be ready for a Ride Out :cheers:
All the parts done one the Model looks great too :praise2: .... but missing time or money is a rather well known factor to me ::)
Per :cheers:
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Cheers Per, The tank is Royal Enfield's take on the 1960's Ducati. New rims, tyres, chrome, paint and all bearings, seals, valves and chains take their toll on the wallet :( Still lots to do. I'm going to enjoy not spending on the steam engine. Terry
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The tank is Royal Enfield's take on the 1960's Ducati.
Parden this Heathen his Ignorance :-[ ...... but in my defence - I didn't see that many English Motorcycles in my youth and they aren't plentiful on the streets here Either :embarassed:
.... and in regards to spending money on my projects - that went out the door when I lost job @ the local University .... mostly ....
Enjoy the MC Build (when money permits) :praise2: :cheers:
Per
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Per, Absolutely no ignorance infered, It's known as the "jelly mould" tank and is pretty rare here too. One of British industry's last gasps :ShakeHead:
Sorry to hear about the job, let's hope you can get another one soon.
Best Wishes Terry
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Well it isn't always easy to tell when people are very enthusiastic about British Iron - so I often try to thread carefull - but in this case I also meant it as a bit of a joke on my expence ;) :cheers:
I have had another job for seven years since, but currently unemployed -> back to school August 14th. for six weeks, to increase my job chances (+ better pay afterwards). At 62, I'm not completely looking forward to this - though I'm sure some of it will be interesting ....
Per
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I have had another job for seven years since, but currently unemployed -> back to school August 14th. for six weeks, to increase my job chances (+ better pay afterwards). At 62, I'm not completely looking forward to this - though I'm sure some of it will be interesting ....
I've been retired out of work for five years this coming weekend :) . I learnt that money isn't everything, especially as you get older.
I promise Terry I will get back to my "Steeple" after I've finished my current job ::)
Jo
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I've been retired out of work for five years this coming weekend :) . I learnt that money isn't everything, especially as you get older.
Very True !! - But when you can't pay the monthly bills (or more correct, I can - if we exclude the yearly Tax on the House + some insurance etc.) ....
So, I need to be able to put more in the 'Bank before I retire'. It helps quite a lot that my last payment on my house is March 31th 2028 and I can officially retire, when I turn 67 two weeks later ….
The house needs some preparations before that and I would like to get a new Motorcycle before that too …
This is one of the main motivations for upgrading my job chances + payment => Back to School for 6 weeks.
Oh yea – there’s also the bit about a max of two years of unemployment support ….
But I’m fully adware off the fact, that health + more time, is much more Valuable the older you get …!
This qould be better too ::)
Per :cheers:
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Forgot to mention: Give me a shout if you struggle with the 12BA studs for the steam chest or any other 12BA threads on this model :-X
Jo
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Cheers Jo, I think I am going to use 10ba for the uprights to cylinder fixings :-[ At present just working through what's already made and correcting cock ups. Terry
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After careful measuring and some adjustments :happyreader: I did a "bolt-up" trial assembly. All seemed ok so I have progressed to the cylinder casting. Failed to hold it in the 4jaw so dug out an old faceplate. A lot of filing was required before I had a square face at one end.Full backgear engaged and all seems well for today.
Terry
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Doing well :ThumbsUp:
Don't do what I did and forget the spigot on the bottom
Jo
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Jo, funny you should mention spigot! When I machined the "table" I missread the drawing and put a hole in it :o No problem I said it's out of sight. Recently I have realised that the table is the cylinder bottom cover!!!!. I have machined a thin (1/16") disc of cast iron which will fit below the cylinder in the spigot. Fortunately there is enough metal in the table to machine more depth to accomodate the disc.
I have also started to bore the cylinder and on my third cut still no hard spots :whoohoo: I was concerned looking at Jo's build as I possess no carbide tools.
Terry
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The Atlas has been busy boring the cylinder for some time so I put tha 4jaw on the little Clarke and machined the recess in the table a bit deeper to acomodate the cylinder spigot AND the blanking disc I had to make to cover the hole made in error :facepalm2:
Cockup sorted...I am now busy re machining the table to the correct dimensions. I think I must have been asleep when I started on this engine last year! Anyway, progress is now being made :)
Terry
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Perfect no one will ever know ;)
Jo
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I have been sidetracked again with the motorbike project as more bits arrived. Soon back on the "steeple" though and mounted the cylinder on a mandrel and machined the cylinder to length. Next move was to square up the base edges, then machine the faces for the rod guides and finally the valve face.
Looking ahead there is no way I shall attempt to drill the very deep 3/32 holes that feed the top steam port :hellno: I will investigate old railway tunnel builders system of cut and cover, mill a slot and screw a cover over it. :thinking: We shall see. Terry
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I haven't done mine yet. ::)
4 holes 2.3mm diameter by longer than the spiral on a long reach drill :o Let's not be hasty bigger holes might be better. I'll document it on my build ;)
Jo
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Can you drill the outer end of the hole a little bigger so the smaller drill can still clear chips?
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I've put my reply and corrections in Jo's thread
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Cheers Jason, As Jo has said it is an age thing :old: I am suffering from brain fade so will leave this for a while to think about it.
To add to my problems throw in minimal measuring equipment, ageing eyesight and minimal skill :facepalm2: Terry
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I am back on this engine again, my motorcycle restoration is paused while I save up for more stuff.
Jo's expertise enabled her to drill the frame/cylinder holes separately and get them to line up. There is no way I could do that so I resorted to spotting through. Using 10ba rather than 12ba, the holes were tapped and all line up successfully. I shall be using bought in threaded rod rather than making studs. Not being able to come up with an "easy" alternative I am following Jo's excellent tutorial :praise2: and milling the exhaust slot in the same way. More progress soon. Terry
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Looking good Terry :)
I'm still amazed that my side frame holes lined up with the 12BA ones on either side of the cylinder. :noidea:
Jo
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Simply skill and care Jo :)
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I continue to do a bit more, although I am not documenting in detail. Anyone wanting to build this engine can follow Jo's excellent build.
My engine is unlikely to be steamed and only run on air a little so the "long" passage to the ports has simply been done with one 4mm hole. I bent the exhaust cover from scrapbinnium and silver soldered the exaust stub. the whole bedded on JB weld. Piston has been made and the piston rod left long to be "fitted" later. Cylinder cover and gland are also done. The valve chest, cover and inlet stub are also made.
Terry
The colours of Autumn go a little to compensate for dark evenings in the shed
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Looks very good so far :ThumbsUp:
Per :cheers:
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Cheers Per :cheers:
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For a while now I have been managing to "fit" components together in spite of errors caused by my lack of skill and measuring accuracy. :facepalm: Unfortunately I have now realised that this engine is never going to work as too many bits are wrong. As a result it is now dismantled, put in a box, and put away for the time being. At some stage I may replace some castings or fabricate as needed and continue.
I apologise to anyone who may have been following along. I my plan to finish my motorcycle restorations first then I won't get sidetracked by too many projects.
cheers for now............Terry
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Well... shucks... That's too bad. I was enjoying your build! :(
But sometimes we just have to streamline things - jettison a few projects and push some to the back burner so we can focus on other things. I understand that.
Best of luck to you on the motorcycle restoration project, Terry! :D
Kim
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For a while now I have been managing to "fit" components together in spite of errors caused by my lack of skill and measuring accuracy. :facepalm: Unfortunately I have now realised that this engine is never going to work as too many bits are wrong. As a result it is now dismantled, put in a box, and put away for the time being. At some stage I may replace some castings or fabricate as needed and continue.
That's a shame. I have been trying to detail any "features" from the drawing and their corrections as I went along. (I am aware of another that I must get on and sort out) I know that these can be built to run and are rather nice to watch running.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yjpel2LuW4
Jo
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Thank you Kim.
Jo, I would not have got as far as I did without your help. The bikes take up a lot of space in the shed and I think I lost concentration on the engine and took some shortcuts that I should not have :embarassed: Thank you again for your input. Terry
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Since my last post I have developed a form of "guilt"about giving up so early. I am currently resting due to repeat of last year's strained shoulder, so with a bit of time on my hands I fetched out all the parts. Each was checked against the drawing only to find that all seemed well. My initial conclusion is that they all have a small amount of error which becomes accumalative when assembled. The cylinder being the worst. I read thro Jo's build again, have reset my brain and will remake where required. As yet no response from Blackgates so I will fabricate the cylinder from some of my stock. I am looking forward to the build again :) This will all take a bit of time so don't wait up. Terry
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:popcorn:
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Just be careful when checking against the drawings as they seem to have their own errors and of the two sets there are differences between the two.
If you need any pointers on cylinder fabrication just ask.
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Blackgates have responded and the cylinder is available if I need it.
Cheers Kim
Jason, if I do fabricate it will basically be a repeat of my Charlesworth engine which was done with you guidance :cheers: :cheers:
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I have recently been "playing" with this engine.....remaking some bits, "improving" other bits and loosely assembling / fitting.
I have made a pair of dummy connecting rods to help settle their length and I find they hit the slot ends on the cylinder and entablature. Dismantling is needed to enable lengthening these slots for clearance when the crank rotates.
Apologies as I got carried away and totally forgot pictures. I will take some at my next session. Terry