Author Topic: Elegent Scroll Frame Skeleton Clock  (Read 191356 times)

Offline Chipswitheverything

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Re: Elegent Scroll Frame Skeleton Clock
« Reply #30 on: November 27, 2024, 09:29:40 am »
I and a few friends had a bit of luck at one of the Model Engineer Exhibitions, going back perhaps 15 years ago :  one of the specialist tool dealers there was selling off full sized Grobet Swiss files in fine cuts and a big range of shapes, for £20 for six, one's own choice.  I bought a six selection, wish I'd spent some bit more! But I have some No 6 flat finishing files, and a couple of No 4's, which I only keep for the last phase of draw filing to obtain a near polished, fine grain finish, which they will do rather well. They are certainly beautifully produced files.

 From my father's tool collection I have some 8" sort of size Swiss "crossing out files, again very fine tooth, No 6, made in double-sided shallow radii for filing and finishing the inside curves of clock wheels.  They would be a lot better than narrow needle files for getting that consistent and finely finished radius between spokes.    Dave

Online Kim

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Re: Elegent Scroll Frame Skeleton Clock
« Reply #31 on: November 27, 2024, 06:19:10 pm »
Thanks for the link, Dave (Otto)!  I looked at that site and it is almost daunting, the number, kinds, and sizes of files that are available!

I'll have to do a bit more looking at ArtCo and McMaster and try to pick a few files.  I would like to get a few #4 files.  And maybe some #6 too?  I don't really know enough to know what I need....

You got a really good deal there Dave (ChipsWithEverything). Too bad I haven't found a deal like that!  :Lol:

Kim

Offline gerritv

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Re: Elegent Scroll Frame Skeleton Clock
« Reply #32 on: December 02, 2024, 03:53:34 pm »
I'll add a vote up for Vallorbe files. They have a selection of dealers in the US.
I bought some from https://europeandesign.ca since they are almost local to me. Not cheap but you don't need many. They have escapement files down to 8 and 10 cut which are great for pivot files but not at the exhorbitant price of 'real' ones. Cut 4 is my favourite.

I made a Synchronome mostly using a piercing saw and files. New files on brass are an extremely satisfying way of working.

John's other books on related tooling are worthwhile as well.

Gerrit
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Online Kim

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Re: Elegent Scroll Frame Skeleton Clock
« Reply #33 on: December 02, 2024, 10:50:21 pm »
Thansk for the input Gerrit, much appreciated.

I spent some time looking around at files and decided to pick up some new files that I'll keep for Brass Only.  I have ordered a couple of sets of small Grobet needle files (#4 cut and #6 cut) as I already had a small set of #2 cut files.  I also ordered a few larger 6" Grobet files (#2, #4, and #6 cuts) in flat and half round.  If I like these, I may pick up a few more of various shapes as needed.   I considered Vallorbe and they would have been good option, but I found the Grobet files and decided to go with those.  We'll see how it all goes.

Kim

Offline Dave Otto

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Re: Elegent Scroll Frame Skeleton Clock
« Reply #34 on: December 02, 2024, 10:55:01 pm »
Hi Kim

Who did you end up ordering your files from?

Dave

Online Kim

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Re: Elegent Scroll Frame Skeleton Clock
« Reply #35 on: December 02, 2024, 11:12:57 pm »
I bought them through Amazon.  Most of them came directly from the Grobet USA store via their Amazon store front.  However, a couple of them were through Eurotools, but they were Grobet files.  Ordering through Amazon I got free shipping. Plus, if I don't like them, Amazon is very good about returns.  I don't expect to return any, but It's nice to have that option.

I haven't received them yet.  This is the wrong time of year to order stuff and get quick shipping!  :Lol:  They'll be trickling in over the next week or two.  But I'll let you all know what I think once I give them a try.

Kim

Offline Dave Otto

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Re: Elegent Scroll Frame Skeleton Clock
« Reply #36 on: December 02, 2024, 11:25:09 pm »
Thanks, being kind of old school when purchasing tools I never think about Amazon, I will have a look.

Dave

Offline Minh Thanh

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Re: Elegent Scroll Frame Skeleton Clock
« Reply #37 on: December 03, 2024, 01:04:49 am »
Interesting project..Please update !  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:

Online Kim

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Re: Elegent Scroll Frame Skeleton Clock
« Reply #38 on: December 21, 2024, 01:24:30 am »
I finally finished making all the drawings for the clock. I also drew up plans for a depthing tool and a mainspring winder in Fusion and made drawings for those.

There were 53 drawings in all!  It’s unfortunate that the free version of Fusion won’t let you have multiple sheets in a drawing, that made it a little more cumbersome, but I managed. And I printed them out for use in the shop.

Here you can see all the drawings, my other reference material (the original book from John Wilding, another book on clock making and one on making gears for clocks), and my bill-of-material spreadsheet.


Interestingly, clock gears are a bit different from your standard involute tooth profile.  In clock making they tend to use a cycloidal tooth profile for the gears, which apparently leads to better efficiency.  So, I got a book that describes how to make cycloidal gear cutters.  John Wilding assumes you’re using a commercial gear cutter, but the only cycloidal cutters I could find were in Europe and were QUITE expensive. Plus, I wanted to make my own gear cutters anyway. Thus this book.

So today, I set out to make some swarf!

I have decided to make the required tools first, starting with the Depthing Tool. This seemed like a fairly simple place to start.  This depthing tool is loosely based on the one John Wilding describes in his book, but I took ideas from Clickspring and other folks to make it a little nicer.  JW’s doesn’t have the adjusting screw.  I wanted that, so I added it.

The first part I made was the base for the depthing tool.  This was made from 1/4" x 3/4“ 1018 CRS bar.  I started by drilling holes at the far ends of the slot, then used those holes to create a radius on the end of the bar (no photo).  Then I milled a ¼” slot between those two holes.


Lastly, I centered the part in the 4-jaw chuck on the lathe and drilled and tapped a 5-40 hole. This will be for the adjusting screw (the part I added).


Here’s the completed base, sitting by the drawing of what the depthing tool should look like when completed.


Before moving on with other parts, I decided I needed to figure out what was going on with the tailstock of my lathe.  As I was doing those last few steps in the lathe, it became obvious that the camlock lever on the tailstock wasn’t working.  It just flopped around like a dead fish and never tightened up.  I was able to lock the tailstock anyway because this lathe has a 1/2" socket in front of the tailstock that will also activate the cam lock.  This is so you can use a 1/2" torque wrench when tightening the tailstock which apparently improves accuracy.  I’ve never really used it.  I have plenty of accuracy using the built-in cam lock lever.  Until now when it stopped working. But the 1/2" socket still worked.  Interestingly, the lathe also came with a lever that fit in that socket.  So I just used that.


While it worked just fine, it was not very convenient. And I found myself continually yanking on the dead fish cam leaver behind the tailstock, which of course, did nothing.  So I decided that my next move would be to see what was going on with the regular lever to see if I could fix it.

After consulting the manual for the the lathe, it seems that there is a roll pin that connects the rear lever to the front socket, which operates the cam.  Armed with this knowledge, I was able to pull the lever out of the back of the tailstock to reveal the broken roll pin.




I had no idea how to get at that roll pin, but I decided to give it a go.  So, I unscrewed the clamping foot from the bottom of the tailstock and laid the tailstock on its side (That puppy is stinking heavy!).  Sure enough, they brilliantly left an opening for you access the roll pin.  Very nice.


The manual said it was a 5mm x 30mm roll pin.  I had a cheap box of roll pins from Harbor Freight. The only sad part was that they were not metric sized pins. They were inch based.  So I just picked the closest one (a 7/32” x 1.25” roll pin) and judiciously squeezed it down in the vice a bit till it could start nicely in the hole. Then I ground a bit off one end till it was ~30mm long.

Then I worked on lining up lever hole with the socket hole and pounding the roll pin into place.


The most challenging part of this operation turned out to be trying to re-attach the clamping foot to the cam lock.  That took a lot of tries.  It was nearly impossible to get my hands in there to feel where the hole was so I could line the bolt up correctly. And of course, I had to do it with everything in place because the clamping foot was too wide to rotate between the sides of the bed. But eventually, with lots of tries, I got there. And now it works like a champ!


And I’m ready to continue on my way making parts! Yay!

But not today. That was it for me and the shop today.  But I felt good about getting that taken care of!

Thanks for stopping by,
Kim

Offline gerritv

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Re: Elegent Scroll Frame Skeleton Clock
« Reply #39 on: December 21, 2024, 01:45:31 am »
I'm really looking forward to this builld. I have similar books and goals, esp. the gear cutters.
I started to draw up the Porter sine tool for my Sherline, I can share what I have so far (functionally complete except screws etc.) https://a360.co/3BuPflh

My gear needs relate to making one or more repeater clocks for my Synchronome for starters.

The other addictive/useful book on the topic of horological gears is by Malcom Wild: Wheel and Pinion Cutting in Horology. It includes drawings for making template to cross out wheels.
gerrit
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Offline gerritv

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Re: Elegent Scroll Frame Skeleton Clock
« Reply #40 on: December 21, 2024, 01:57:08 am »
Quote
nd so I can print them on my printer, the drawings have to be A sized sheets, which means I can’t fit very much on a single sheet.
And I realize it is a little late to mention this but I have started using B size drawings and either getting them printed full size at Staples or just printing it on A size paper. Means you can't scale it directly but then that shouldn't become a habit anyway :-)

I use one Document for my entire design/assembly (lots of components) so the 10 Document limit only comes into play for me when adding Drawings.

gerrit
Don't confuse activity with progress

Offline crueby

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Re: Elegent Scroll Frame Skeleton Clock
« Reply #41 on: December 21, 2024, 03:33:06 am »
Kim, following along closely, I  love clockmaking almost as much as steam engines. That depthing tool will be very handy for laying out the holes for the shafts, well worth making.




Gerrit, what exactly does that pirter sine tool do? How is it used?

Offline Krypto

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Re: Elegent Scroll Frame Skeleton Clock
« Reply #42 on: December 21, 2024, 03:43:04 am »
Did you checkout Clickspring's video series on making your own gear cutters? His spreadsheet supports the math for making the cutters for both involute and cycloidal gears.
My Workshop Blog:  https://doug.sdf.org/

Online Kim

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Re: Elegent Scroll Frame Skeleton Clock
« Reply #43 on: December 21, 2024, 05:03:09 am »
Hi Gerrit,
That's great to hear someone else is interested in building this! We can do parallel builds!  ;D

Chris, the sine tool Gerrit is talking about is a tool that this book recommends for shaping the tool to cut the gear cutter - a similar principle to the button tool that you can use to create involute gear cutters. But a little different because it's for creating cycloidal cutters. 

I've got a plan to create my cutter-forming tool using the rotary table.  I think it should work. If not, I will likely make one of those sine tools too.

Yes, I also do all my components in a single document.  There were a lot of components and I made nested assemblies and sub-assemblies for most of the components to keep my tree view manageable.  But it seemed to work quite well.  And yes, I only ran into issues with the doc limit while working with the drawings.  I did keep them all A-size.  Maybe going with B would have been better, but I liked the idea of being able to print them at home  :embarrassed:

Hi Krypto,
I've watched Clicksprings video but didn't remember he had a spreadsheet with the math for making the cutters. I'll have to go back and refresh myself on that.  Thanks!

Kim

Offline cnr6400

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Re: Elegent Scroll Frame Skeleton Clock
« Reply #44 on: December 21, 2024, 12:40:35 pm »
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Nice job on the depthing thing! Also nice fix to the tailstock cam lock.  :cheers:
"I've cut that stock three times, and it's still too short!"

 

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