Model Engine Maker
Supporting => Tooling & Machines => Topic started by: Steam Haulage on June 17, 2014, 08:12:35 PM
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Yet again I turn to the group for some commentary and advice.
I try to be as self sufficient as I can, which means that I don't like putting work out to third parties, if I can possibly avoid it. I also have found that if I make too many compromises I end up with kit that that leaves me feeling I should have spent a bit more or waited a little longer to get what I really wanted.
I know that some members have their own equipment for tool & cutter grinding. I have looked at the various build it yourself from castings routes, from the Quorn downwards/upwards depending on your point of view and my mood at the time. I do not have time to build the Quorn, and it appears to take patience to set-up the various functions.
I have in mind that the Clarkson would enable me to do everything in this line, but others will no doubt have their own views.?
Jerry
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Hi Jerry, I am also looking for a solution. Some people of our German forum are happy with this grinder.
http://www.hogetex.de/hp-u3-stichel-und-werkzeugschleifmaschine.html (http://www.hogetex.de/hp-u3-stichel-und-werkzeugschleifmaschine.html)
or
http://www.hbm-machines.com/producten/metaalbewerking/frezenslijpmachines/hbm-u3-boor-en-frezen-slijper (http://www.hbm-machines.com/producten/metaalbewerking/frezenslijpmachines/hbm-u3-boor-en-frezen-slijper)
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My next project (when I finish the current one) will most probably be a tool / cutter grinder. I was thinking of the Worden.
Vince
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Jerry the question is what to you want to sharpen?
The Quorn was designed by Prof Chaddock it was based on the original Alexander cutter grinder (I sold one last year ;)) which was originally used to sharpen engraving tools And those German machines are again clones of the old Alexander machine. They are good at sharpening the ends of milling cutters. You can also sharpen ball nose cutters and by replacing the mount with something to take a bit of square toolsteel you can even do lathe tools. But that is where they start to fall down :shrug:
Yes the Prof added a support to enable between centres support of cutters so that you can do the sides of flutes and taps but its a bit of a thin spindle it mounts on. And it does not have the freedom of movement that a real cutter grinder gives you.
I kept my Union Tool and Cutter grinder http://www.lathes.co.uk/uniontool%26cuttergrinder/: Its faults? It won't sharpen the ends of very, very long large cutters as there is not enough bed space to get the head away from the holder.
Stu did a really simple design that he put on the forum that will let you sharpen the ends of milling cutters ;).
Jo
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I made a completely new head for my Union tool and cutter grinder, the original motor had quite a few limitations that I could not live with. This one is three phase and runs on a variable speed inverter.
This head is also designed to fit onto the Myford cross slide and be used for cylindrical grinding, you will see that the adapter plate on the Union has two positions so its range is a lot more than original.
(http://i456.photobucket.com/albums/qq286/pgp001/Model%20Engineering/Various%20Tooling/Union%20Grinder/union-grinder-04_zps85c35669.jpg) (http://s456.photobucket.com/user/pgp001/media/Model%20Engineering/Various%20Tooling/Union%20Grinder/union-grinder-04_zps85c35669.jpg.html)
(http://i456.photobucket.com/albums/qq286/pgp001/Model%20Engineering/Various%20Tooling/Union%20Grinder/union-grinder-03_zpsd332a7d0.jpg) (http://s456.photobucket.com/user/pgp001/media/Model%20Engineering/Various%20Tooling/Union%20Grinder/union-grinder-03_zpsd332a7d0.jpg.html)
I have set it up with an indexing head that takes DA180 collets, this allows me to hold anything up to 20mm diameter and twist drills can be held on the flutes to sharpen them using the four facet method.
(http://i456.photobucket.com/albums/qq286/pgp001/Model%20Engineering/Various%20Tooling/Union%20Grinder/union-grinder-01_zpseb59419a.jpg) (http://s456.photobucket.com/user/pgp001/media/Model%20Engineering/Various%20Tooling/Union%20Grinder/union-grinder-01_zpseb59419a.jpg.html)
It also gets used for sharpening the hobs for my Mikron gear hobber.
(http://i456.photobucket.com/albums/qq286/pgp001/Model%20Engineering/Various%20Tooling/Union%20Grinder/Workshop308Oct_zps4ca15192.jpg) (http://s456.photobucket.com/user/pgp001/media/Model%20Engineering/Various%20Tooling/Union%20Grinder/Workshop308Oct_zps4ca15192.jpg.html)
Plus a bit of surface grinding now and again.
(http://i456.photobucket.com/albums/qq286/pgp001/Model%20Engineering/Pollit%20and%20Wigzell%20Mill%20Engine%20%20Agnes/My%20Model%20of%20Agnes/Agnes%20Flywheel/Workshop00117-05-14_zpsc540a9be.jpg) (http://s456.photobucket.com/user/pgp001/media/Model%20Engineering/Pollit%20and%20Wigzell%20Mill%20Engine%20%20Agnes/My%20Model%20of%20Agnes/Agnes%20Flywheel/Workshop00117-05-14_zpsc540a9be.jpg.html)
And yes, those are the rim segments for Agnes's flywheel, but I have done my usual trick of breaking off to work on more tools, namely my new Pultra lathes.
Phil
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Hi this is my home brewed cutter grinder:-
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/DSC01012_zpsadfee0bf.jpg) (http://s431.photobucket.com/user/sbwhart/media/DSC01012_zpsadfee0bf.jpg.html)
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/DSC00694_zps2fbe558b.jpg) (http://s431.photobucket.com/user/sbwhart/media/DSC00694_zps2fbe558b.jpg.html)
This is a end mill sharpening fixture I made for it.
(http://i431.photobucket.com/albums/qq32/sbwhart/DSC01029_zps2b3d515a.jpg) (http://s431.photobucket.com/user/sbwhart/media/DSC01029_zps2b3d515a.jpg.html)
Like you I didn't want to put the effort in to make a Quorn so I simply put together a commercial X/Y table a myford type vertical slide with a cheap bench grinder suitably modified to do the job.
It works well I've sharpened lots of cutters with it.
Her is a video of it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONgqcs4pBws
Stew
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I see nobody has come back with anything about the Clarkson.
As I said in my OP time is a consideration so I am not going to even look at the Quorn and its siblings. I built one many moons ago and do not want to go down that route again. That's why I am looking at the possibility of an industrial machine. My need is for sharpening end mills slot drills etc.. I have a Tormek which has everything needed for 4-facet Morse drills. It produces the nearest thing to scalpel sharp that I have ever experienced on the kitchen knives as well, even better than the knife makers achieve, as well as doing scissors, and a myriad of other tasks.
Examples of the Clarkson appear from time-to-time, just within my budget. I had not thought of the Union but looking at Phil's pix that looks a good machine and offers facilities that I do not think are possible on the Clarkson, such as surface grinding.
Thanks for the contributions.
Jerry
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Looks like how useful it is depends on how many of the accessories come with it.
http://www.lathes.co.uk/clarkson/
Milling cutters are relatively cheap these days so any cutter grinder needs to be a real steal to make financial sense. Cutting special profiles is another issue though I guess.
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Stew's cutter grinder seems quite clever and can probably be built at reasonable cost with some investment in time and skill. I do wonder about the practicality of sharpening your own tooling unless you are in a production environment, and even there it may be cheaper to buy new end mills rather than pay someone with the skills to do it properly. It might be a profitable cottage industry to offer sharpening of end mills and other tools, but I don't think I'd spend any more than, say, $5 to have an end mill sharpened when I can buy a new one for about $20. By the time you pack up and ship a package of end mills to someone and wait for them to come back, you may spend a significant amount of time and postage and you take a chance that whoever sharpens them knows what they are doing. :shrug:
I have touched up some end mills with diamond files and they seemed to work reasonably well, at least for fairly rough work, and I have some nearly new mills I'm saving for when I need more precision. Using a HF mill/drill probably won't get much better results from a new or perfectly sharpened tool anyway. ;)
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Now I'm pleased I asked the question. The answers are what might be called a 'Wake up call'. Especially the reminder of the economics. I shall have to look at the cost of new gear cutters and horizontal mill cutters and work out the 'is it worth it?' conun.drum
Thank you all for the contributions.
Jerry
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I had some similar questions a while ago,
http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php?topic=2978.0
My final conclusion was that a cutter grinder does not make sense for me at the moment on space, time or economic grounds. My workshop time is currently very limited due to business travel and I don't want to spend it sharpening tools. I have, however bought a couple of replaceable tip tools to see how I get on with them.
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Hello everybody, if someone has interest for a good cutter source in Europe,
http://www.xact-gmbh.de/index.php/hss-hardal-fraeser-c-24_33 (http://www.xact-gmbh.de/index.php/hss-hardal-fraeser-c-24_33)
or here the catalog download
http://www.xact-gmbh.de/product_info.php/hauptkatalog-hauptkatalog-p-699 (http://www.xact-gmbh.de/product_info.php/hauptkatalog-hauptkatalog-p-699)
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This is the grinder I have and it's pretty easy to use and of coarse it has some limitations.
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200414732_200414732
Don
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Jerry, the cost question: I paid the vast sum of £50 for my Union :mischief: it has paid for itself. (I paid £100 for the Alexander and sold it for £250 ten years later: I know I could have got more for it but he was a mate :naughty:)
But the same guy I sold the Alexander to was a toolmaker in his youth :Lol: and he said that other than getting the apprentice to sharpen all the blunt cutters on the T&CG, they were normally used to make specialist cutters. The idea of cutting a lathe tool on one had him in hysterics :-[
For your average model maker you might as well buy new cutters rather than paying out the silly prices asked for a T&CG, or make something up like Stew did as a project. Or see if you have a local club which has one, collect up all your old cutters and once a year or so go and have a sharpening afternoon ;).
And small cutters under 6mm: don't even bother trying to sharpen them.
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Another friend has just brought this never been used Dormer drill sharpener for £500 :o I will of course be visiting to try it out on my drill collection ;D
Jo
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Good advice Jo, as usual.
I think I shall put the idea behind me and knock my normal desire to be self-sufficient on the head.
Jerry
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An interesting machine Jo, it's the grinding head that moves, not the thing being sharpened. Hugh.
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I have an old Gorton 231...it's very similar to what you have Don, but is a an original. It is in need of a rebuild, but I can see many uses for 1 off cutters and the like
Dave
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Years ago when I was starting my workshop the question of sharpening milling cutters was high on my list of priorities. Having Emco Unimat 3's at the time a blunt cutter would soon show up with a complaining motor. To overcome this I made a 2/3 rd's full size Quorn, but I made mine from all stock sections. At the time this was all that was available to the average Home Machinist, but I will add it is not for the faint hearted as I find this very tedious to set up. The Stent and Kenning tool grinders did not come until much later and the Clarkson then was still in production at a price well beyond my pocket.
I have currently a bench grinder that is poorly utilised and as part of bringing this grinder more into use and ditching the Quorn I have embarked on an adaptation of Harold Hall's grinding rest, but with a Clarkson twist. As a prelude to using the Bench grinder full-time I visited an old problem of drill grinding and the adaptation of a commercially available drill grinding jig. The picture below shows what can be achieved in a few days and the jig will now grind consistently from 1.5 mm to 25 mm, quickly and easily, something I would not say was true of the original jig.
So with a little ingenuity and a very small outlay you can grind any of your cutters, but as with all things in life it is a choice that only the individual can make.
My best regards
Gray,
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Nice one Gray!....Can't help but find that little Quorn adorable!... 8)
Though I side with the pragmatic!
Dave
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Out of interest Gray, why 2/3rds? I assume machining capacity? It looks really nice, but are there advantages over Stews set up? Kind regards,
Hugh.
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Oh, and I meant to add, I did find your post on the drill sharpening jig on another forum very illuminating. Perhaps the bare bones would be appreciated here? Hugh.
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Glad to see you back with us Gray :ThumbsUp: I hope everthing went ok.
Is that a Picador drill grinding jig you have modified?
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Hi Gray,
that 2/3 rd's Quorn looks great. How large diam. cutter shafts can it accomodate?
Thor
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How large diam. cutter shafts can it accomodate?
Gray you have them hooked :lolb:.
Sure you don't want to start serialising some of your excellent tool builds on the site? I am sure the members will appreciate them ;)
Jo
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How large diam. cutter shafts can it accomodate?
Gray you have them hooked :lolb:.
Sure you don't want to start serialising some of your excellent tool builds on the site? I am sure the members will appreciate them ;)
Jo
Absolutely!
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Hi All,
I must apologise for my absence today, I have been busy writing up two articles on the drill grinding attachment modifications, after something like 10,000 words I am bushed.
Thor,
The maximum cutter shank that I can hold in the grinder is 16 mm.
Roger,
Thanks,
The Surgeon does not want to touch it for fear of doing more damage, but on the plus side I have a better than 50-50 chance that it will go on it's own, so fingers crossed.
With regards to the jig it is a not very good clone of a Picador. These currently produced clones work on a different principle to the Picador, the latter grinds a cylindrical facet whereas the others grind a conical facet. There are a load of other things wrong with the clones and it is too long to go into here, but having said that I would not part with my modified jig now as grinding a drill takes just minutes with perfect results.
Hugh,
The Quorn was made in millimetre units, (my preferred units), every 1/16" on the original drawing was 1 mm on my version, this avoided expensive castings which I am not overly fond of and the reduced bulk fitted a nook in my then tight for space workshop. Thanks for the kind comments about my swansong on the other forum, I am not sorry I left, much nicer people over here.
Dave,
If you lived at Leominster, Herefordshire I would pop it over when I have finished with it. Believe it or not it is now nearing its 30th birthday and has repaid me many times over in that time, for the cost of making it
My best regards
Gray,
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How large diam. cutter shafts can it accomodate?
Gray you have them hooked :lolb:.
Sure you don't want to start serialising some of your excellent tool builds on the site? I am sure the members will appreciate them ;)
Jo
Absolutely!
I only wish I could, I really want to, but there is a problem when it comes to my promise to publish my work via Tee Publishing. The drill grinding jig is a case in point when I started out I just wanted to do the job for my own usage, there was never any intention of writing it up only passing on how I did it to my fellow hobbyists, then Model Engineer forum members want me to write about it in MEW, (I have to admit we have never hit it off, so this was a non-starter). Due to the amount of interest generated on that site, something like 15,000 views over two weeks my Editor decides I ought to write it up and after writing it up today I have to agree there is a lot of useful information contained with in the pages.
If there was a way forward whereby I can please both my masters I would take it, If I start a separate thread it will only really be a carbon copy of the ME without the aggro, so I am open to suggestions
My best regards
Gray,
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We would be very pleased if you reposted what you posted on that other site :whoohoo:
You might will get more questions :naughty: and did we mention we like photos ;)
Jo
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Here is a short vid of the floating tool holder I made being used on a temp setup on the mill. I made a temp bar that clamps on the ram of the mill and holds the motor and wheel. I started a grinding table similar to Stews setup but the weather got nice and too many things to do around the house to keep up and no shop time. I did get all my dull end mills sharpened on the temp setup. The floating setup works extremely well I'm glad I spent the time making it just need to get the cross slides done and a more permanent grinding setup done.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1Rxunxi5wI
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We would be very pleased if you reposted what you posted on that other site :whoohoo:
You might will get more questions :naughty: and did we mention we like photos ;)
Jo
Hell yeah!......
Or as they say in Rhode Island....Yo she's layin it down, you pickin it up?! 8)
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Gray I am with the rest of them please post. And like Jo said, did I mention we like photos.
Don
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Hi Don,
I have as Jo and Dave asked started a new post "Getting the most out of a drill grinding jig, or Perfect twist drills every time" I hope you and others benefit from my findings.
My best regards
Gray,
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I'm nervous of posting this when the attantion in the UK is on the Guildford show this weekend. I hope those going will not use their valuable time on this subject and I wish them a successful exhibition.
Of course I have been following along with this thread, some might recall I had decided to give up the idea of getting a fully fledged T&C grinder. But although I acknowledge that it looks an expensive way to go I have spent some time looking at both the cost of machines and of cutters.
The economics are not all one way. As part of my reincarnation in ME I decided that I am no longer prepared to spend an inordinate time waiting for machinery. As I get older I can feel time ticking away. :old: So sharp cutters are a given.
If a assume any machine in good order is going to cost me perhaps as much as £600 which by the time I have paid the VAT, and postage could well add up to £750 then is the amount I need to offset.
As has been said on this site and others there are cheap sources of cutters on the web. I have based my comparisons on an 8mm normal length. I have recently had some costing around £3 a time, some around £15 and an industrial quality around £20. To those sourced from EU suppliers must be added the vicious added tax, currently 20%. Imports should carry duty. The best quality which can with stand the heat can be £40 ++, say £50 each. So you then only have to use 15 or so to spend the same money. Not that I have got 15 cutters of one size anyway!
The pondering continues.
Jerry
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Hello Jerry,
Decisions are not easy and not always (or most of the times) rational. Thought to share my point of view, maybe it will help you in your considerations..
I have 2 drill sharpening machines and a universal Tool and cutter grinder. Spend more or less 2.000,- euros on these 3 machines together. I could have bought a lot of tooling for that money. But in my opinion you should not see the money spend as gone, at least if you buy a quality machine like the Clarkson. If you by a known brand, used machine, in a fair condition you will get your money back whenever you sell it again!! I have bought and sold again several machines over the last years and the only time that I lost most of what I paid was with an Asian produced machine. With all the other ones (European, UK or USA brands) sometimes I lost a little and many times I even got more then I paid for it! Considering this I cannot buy any tooling because I am sure that whenever I decide to sell my grinding machines again I will get my 2.000,- euros back!!
A second Pro to get yourself a nice grinder is that you can buy used, but high quality drills, mills etc (Dormer, Fraisa etc). I normally buy them at model shows for a few Euros and sharpen them at home. In this way I have quality cutters for less then a rubbish Asian one! Since I have a decent drill grinder (Swiss made Optimum) I have thrown away all my Asian produced drills. The geometry of the drill simply is not good, the middle of the drill is out of centre, impossible to grind a symmetrical 4-facet point.
Another advantage of owning a nice grinder is that normally tooling dulls / breaks when you are in the middle of a job. Since I am working 5 days a week it means my work is over for at least that evening and most of the times for week when I cannot resharp my tools. Further I noticed that whenever I get the feeling a cutting tool is getting slightly dull I regrind it immediately. Before I had the grinders I would keep pushing it resulting in a broken drill bit for example because I was putting too much force and with that ruined my workpiece....
If you have the budget available, get yourself a nice used, but known brand (I recently sold my Clarkson MK1 grinder for 3 times the price I have paid for it) grinder. You will have the benefits of owning one and you will get (most of) your money back when you sell it again.
Good luck with your considerations!
Regards Jeroen
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Thanks for your positive comments Coopertje,
You are putting into words exactly how I feel about it. I know from past experience that in most cases like this if I get a buzz that an acquisition is a good idea and I can't get away from it that I had better get on and do it.
Your 3 pro points have convinced me. So I have gone from :-\ to :ThumbsUp: on the idea.
Now all I have to do is find a good example of the Clarkson.
Jerry
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Glad it gave you that little push in the right direction. Try to convince myself in this way as much as possible that I really need all that machines :Lol: Now the most difficult part starts.... patience....waiting....looking.... just until the right machine comes along with the right price!
Regards Jeroen
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Glad you like my Union.
If I can be of any assistance just ask, I have a few bits of literature on the Union grinder you might find useful if you haven't seen it.
Phil
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Hi,
Did you find a nice Clarkson?
2 years back I was wondering the same things. I ended up getting a MKII clarkson. For what it is worth I have some tips:
1. Focus on what standard tooling it comes with. I'd recommend a nasty well used example with tooling over a vgc example without.
The reason being is that the basic machine is very simple. The machine can be stripped down into the constituent parts in just a few hours. Each casting is not so heavy, and it can then be cleaned up. It can also be scraped in if it has excessive wear. Its a pretty simple machine.
2. Consider what attachments you will be needing. They seem to go for more than the grinders. Look for a sale that includes what you want.
3. Keep your eye on the usual places for any missing tooling. In the last 2 years I've seen pretty much everything come up at least a few times. Apart from MKIII items.
4. Stay away from a MKIII unless it comes with ALL the tooling you want. It seems to be very rare.
Steve