Model Engine Maker
Engines => Your Own Design => Topic started by: crueby on August 01, 2022, 04:15:44 PM
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Hi all,
This is going to be a long-term build, partly since I need to convert the original plan sheets to CAD then pick a scale to build from, but its worth starting the thread now to help keep it all straight and show progress along the way.
Here is a picture of the battleship Ohio, BB-12, commissioned in 1904. It was one of three ships in the Maine class (these are the next generation AFTER the Maine that blew up in Havana Harbor). It was part of the Great White Fleet that did a world tour.
(https://i.postimg.cc/FKnPtT2f/Ohio-BB-12.png)
More pictures on these websites:
https://www.history.navy.mil/our-collections/photography/us-navy-ships/battleships/ohio-bb-12.html
http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/12a.htm
'Steamer' Dave very kindly gave me a copy of the set of plans he has of the engine from this ship. It had two of these 8000 HP (yes, 8 THOUSAND HP) triple expansion, 4 cylinder engines (two LP cylinders). Massive engines, very hard to find any pictures of that style engine. It was a German design that the US Navy used, and built them in the US for the battleships. They include a two-cylinder barring engine at the end that turns a pair of worm gear sets to turn the main engine, a shaft driven set of pumps at the other end, and a single piston reverse 'engine' in the middle that moves the reverse gear linkages back and forth (these days it would be done with a single hydraulic piston).
Right now I'm still studying the plans, 8 large sheets, trying not to drool on them too much. So far it looks like a pretty complete set of measured drawings, nice detail on the cylinders, base, con rods, etc. There are a few areas on the frame and the eccentrics where the details are slight, but there is enough there to build from.
Once the studying/drooling is done, I'll start up the CAD drawing of the parts, starting with the engine beds and moving up from there. I'll post screen shots as that goes on, and eventually will have enough to start building. This will be a nice background project as the Ransome Tree Feller build goes on over in the workshop. My initial back-of-napkin guess is that the scale of the model will be somewhere in the 1:12 to 1:16 range, have to see how the part sizes work out vs what will fit on my lathe/mill. Whatever the scale, it will be another big model, like the Holly water pumping engine was (that was 1:32 scale). One nice thing from a build point of view is that the crankshaft, while very long, was made in four bolted-together lengths, which will help a lot on my small Sherline lathe.
A few specs on the engine:- Cylinder bores: 35.5" HP, 53" IP, two 63" LP cylinders
- Stroke 48"
- Steam pressure: 250 PSI
- Speed: 125 RPM, 18 knots
Stay tuned, more details to follow as the CAD work starts and Dave and I continue to add more background as the research continues.
Chris
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Standing by, here in the stokehold as usual, sir! :cheers:
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ooooooooooooooooh boy!, this will be exciting. :ThumbsUp:
:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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right up the predred time frame,, look at those pretty steam cutters moored alongside.. :whoohoo:
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Boats and ships back then DID look great, didn't they!
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me and a couple of friends think so
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Oooh, those are beautiful models! Scratch built?
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all scratch 1/96th, my USS Brooklyn and a friends USS Maine, my USS Raleigh and a friends USS Chester,, I also have a USS Minneapolis and a the BB1 USS Texas started.. and a USS vesuvius (dynamite Cruiser) in 1/48...
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Marvelous ships tghs! Thanks for posting the photos / info!
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Do the plans that you are inspecting have any sort of GA drawing that would give an idea of the overall scheme of the complex engine? Would be interested to see something like that. In the UK, Commander Barker built a series of large and highly accurate marine engine models that were illustrated in Model Engineer magazines of the 1950's, they might have some relevance. A quick Google search just now didn't bring up specific references, though searching for "Quads" ... did bring up more material than I had expected to see.
I have a copy here of the 1908, 9th edition of Sennett and Oram "The Marine Steam Engine" 500 pages, which contains a lot of detail of componentry and auxiliaries for these large engines. Also, 2 volumes of Sothern's "Verbal notes and sketches for Marine Engineers" , subtitled A Manual of Marine steam Engineering practice" with comprehensive information on all aspects of the subject, not dated, maybe 1920? And a few other tomes similar, in date and content, they were fond of large and rather fiercesome text books at that period! If I can dig anything out of these books that might be helpful, happy to have a look. Dave
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Absolutely - I should have included these shots in the first post. Here are two views from the plans, showing the general layout:
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZK0dYgTH/IMG-4434.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/vHj64zTs/IMG-4435.jpg)
The first photo shows the side view of the engine, cutaway down the center for most of it. The HP cylinder is on the right, and the two LP cylinders on the left. I'm assuming that they split the LP cylinder, which typically would have been much larger diameter and 120 degrees off from the HP and IP on the crank, into two cylinders just a little larger than the IP to keep the engine narrower (though longer) to fit in the hull better. It does change the crankshaft, they have the HP and IP 180 degrees apart, and each of the two LP pistons 180 apart/90 from the other two, which is interesting. Properly sized, the four cranks more evenly distribute the forces on the output shaft. Also note the conical-shaped pistons heads, and hard to see in the small photos but the tops of the IP/LP valves have small pistons to balance the weight of the valves, which are quite large.
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4 cylinders x 2 cylinder heads per cylinder = an awful lot of tiny holes for you and the elves to drill and tap.
Don
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those piston profiles look familiar!!!!
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4 cylinders x 2 cylinder heads per cylinder = an awful lot of tiny holes for you and the elves to drill and tap.
Don
Not to mention all the holes in the engine beds, frames, crossheads... Fortunately the bolts on the real one are large diameter, so at model scale most will be around a 2-56 size. Once the CAD model is made I will fiddle with the math on the largest/smallest parts and see how the scale works out. That tapping stand will be paying for itself yet again!
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those piston profiles look familiar!!!!
Same on the engine you are building?
Do you know why they did conical rather than flat piston heads? Same overall height of the engine, but it would reduce the height at the outer edges. :thinking:
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looks like they just enlarged things
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Conical cast pistons are much stronger
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Conical cast pistons are much stronger
Ah! Strength would be a big factor on these, given the high steam pressure used. I guess that if the cone adds strength, they could minimize the thickness and the weight too, weight being important on a ship, and moving weight important at high speeds for vibration. On the Holly pumping engine, which was slow speed and lower pressure, the piston heads were flat but a lot thicker. Lots of engineering!
:ThumbsUp: :cheers:
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This evening saw the first of a long series of sessions making a CAD version of the Ohio engine plans in Fusion. Starting at the bottom with the engine bed, here is the first sketch for the top view, which will be used to start extruding out the top/bottom plates. There are all sorts of ribs and flanges between the plates, those will be another set of sketches. Interesting that the bulk of the measurements are all millimeters - it was a German designed engine after all - but a few places, like bolt holes, are in inches. The text is all in both German and English. These plans must be the version that the engine builder, in the US, used. Going to be a long project to convert them to the 3D CAD model, lots of the shapes are pretty complex, and I will be working on this sporadically between other projects.
Here is a screen grab of the engine bed top view. The three sets of vertical lines are where the joints are between the castings. The row of circles along the bottom are the mounting pads for the posts along the front that hold up the cylinder blocks, the narrow rectangles in a row along the back are the mount pads for the larger rear support columns - this engine has the main supports at the back (with crosshead guides) and posts at the front just like the Sabino engine (just a whole LOT bigger! )
(https://i.postimg.cc/t4wHLBkY/Image3.jpg)
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Lots more CAD sketches on the engine bed pieces, and started extruding shapes from them. So far most of the frame pieces are shaped, main things left to draw up are the bearing blocks. Note that the height of the top plates is higher at the back than the front - the bearing blocks will span this height change. There are also more brackets/tubes for supporting the vertical and angled cylinder supports along the front edges.
(https://i.postimg.cc/pXL7KwQj/Engine-Bed-Progress.jpg)
These parts are going to be interesting to make - probably will piece them up from thin bar stock. Or combination of that and milling from thicker chunks. Or any of the other 87 ways they could be made! Long time till I need to decide that.
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The bedplate designer must have been from Gusset City, Massachusetts! :Lol: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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The bedplate designer must have been from Gusset City, Massachusetts! :Lol: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Looks a lot like a modern one designed by a welding machine manufacturer. The whole thing is 1.25" and 1.5" thick plate steel.
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So Chris....is the height difference/relationship mirror reversed on the opposite engine?
[both lowers inboard facing each other :headscratch:] ...
I imaging they would have been cast steel ?
Derek
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So Chris....is the height difference/relationship mirror reversed on the opposite engine?
[both lowers inboard facing each other :headscratch: ] ...
I imaging they would have been cast steel ?
Derek
Yes, the two engines would be mirror images of each other in all respects.
There are only a few places on the plans, like cylinder liners and valves, where the call out the metal used, so I don't know for sure what the beds were made of. Not sure yet what I will use, depends on which method I pick to fabricate them.
Chris
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With the enormous repetitious construction :facepalm: of all of those webs & gussets in the engine base beds .......not be a great contender for 3D printing?
Do you use one of those metal dust or brass-filled polymer printing wires?
Derek
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With the enormous repetitious construction :facepalm: of all of those webs & gussets in the engine base beds .......not be a great contender for 3D printing?
Do you use one of those metal dust or brass-filled polymer printing wires?
Derek
So far I've never tried any of the filiments like that, just the PLA, so I'm not sure what the properties of the prints are from them. I do know that they require special nozzles and can be hard on the feed mechanism in the print head. The engine bed on this engine needs to be quite rigid and strong, it will be supporting a lot of weight and holding the uprights to the cylinders against all the force on the crankshaft, and the plates making the bed will only be about 1/16" thick, depending on the scale I wind up picking. Besides, I enjoy making the parts in metal wherever possible rather than watching the printer go for days on end.
:cheers:
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Wow, what a great project and major undertaking!
On the base plates, what are the dimensions of each section? If not too large, I'd be thinking lost resin casting in AL, but as that is what is currently on the brain....well its the current hammer so everything looks like a nail. Amazing stuff though, resin printing is so much finer resolution than filament.
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Wow, what a great project and major undertaking!
On the base plates, what are the dimensions of each section? If not too large, I'd be thinking lost resin casting in AL, but as that is what is currently on the brain....well its the current hammer so everything looks like a nail. Amazing stuff though, resin printing is so much finer resolution than filament.
I don't know what scale it will be till the CAD work is done, but in general the engine will be something in the 2 to 2.5 feet long, around 10 inches deep, so the bed plates will be big, though the plates will be something around 1/16" thick.
It will be metal, not plastic, and I have no ability in casting. So, they will be pieced up in somme form, but all those decisions are months away.
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The full size parts of the bed, due to the size and the technology of the time, would probably have been cast - most likely cast iron. With all the ribs, those parts probably gave some foundryman nightmares for weeks.
Don
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The full size parts of the bed, due to the size and the technology of the time, would probably have been cast - most likely cast iron. With all the ribs, those parts probably gave some foundryman nightmares for weeks.
Don
The bed is in four pieces, but its still massive with lots of relatively small sections through the webs, would have been a lot of fun to watch how they did it (from a decent distance anyway! )
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the foundry men in that time frame were masters of the art!! my normal searches found no photos of the engine,, west coast builds during this time seem to have less photos but one might try some sources local to San Francisco. The sectioned bed and crank most likely was done for installation reasons (reduced the size of holes in the decks above) just to look at here's a photo of one the engines for the USS Cincinnati, circa 1894
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the foundry men in that time frame were masters of the art!! my normal searches found no photos of the engine,, west coast builds during this time seem to have less photos but one might try some sources local to San Francisco. The sectioned bed and crank most likely was done for installation reasons (reduced the size of holes in the decks above) just to look at here's a photo of one the engines for the USS Cincinnati, circa 1894
Nice shot! Where did you find that picture? It shares some of the features of the Ohio engine, just a little smaller.
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library of congress, but the search is kind of strange, if you try to search " USS Raleigh" you don't get much, if you search "cruiser Raleigh" much better results!!! some of the photos can be downloaded in tiff format, the enlargement resolution is great,,
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While trying to learn a bit more about the Ohio, I stumbled across this resource...
http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/12a.htm
which contains this fascinating, detailed description of the ship's layout...
http://navsource.org/archives/01/010/011060.jpg
Sadly, the engine is somewhat hidden, but still fun to explore.
A higher resolution view of the ship...
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Uss_ohio_bb-12.jpg
showing the later-installed "basket" masts and the array of side-mounted 6" guns. It would appear that the notion of firing a broadside from a battleship was still in the Navy's mind.
More pictures of the ship here...
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:USS_Ohio_(BB-12)
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YUP Marv beat me to it Navsource is a great resource/
Dave
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While trying to learn a bit more about the Ohio, I stumbled across this resource...
http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/12a.htm
which contains this fascinating, detailed description of the ship's layout...
http://navsource.org/archives/01/010/011060.jpg
Sadly, the engine is somewhat hidden, but still fun to explore.
A higher resolution view of the ship...
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Uss_ohio_bb-12.jpg
showing the later-installed "basket" masts and the array of side-mounted 6" guns. It would appear that the notion of firing a broadside from a battleship was still in the Navy's mind.
More pictures of the ship here...
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:USS_Ohio_(BB-12)
INTERESTING Condensors were amidships between the engines!!! Flies in the face of tradition. This layout puts the engineers operation station outboard
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While trying to learn a bit more about the Ohio, I stumbled across this resource...
http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/12a.htm (http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/12a.htm)
which contains this fascinating, detailed description of the ship's layout...
http://navsource.org/archives/01/010/011060.jpg (http://navsource.org/archives/01/010/011060.jpg)
Sadly, the engine is somewhat hidden, but still fun to explore.
A higher resolution view of the ship...
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Uss_ohio_bb-12.jpg (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Uss_ohio_bb-12.jpg)
showing the later-installed "basket" masts and the array of side-mounted 6" guns. It would appear that the notion of firing a broadside from a battleship was still in the Navy's mind.
More pictures of the ship here...
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:USS_Ohio_(BB-12 (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:USS_Ohio_(BB-12))
INTERESTING Condensors were amidships between the engines!!! Flies in the face of tradition. This layout puts the engineers operation station outboard
I don't think so - that cutaway view is not just a straight centerline view, the starboard engine, prop shaft, and prop are shown in full, projecting out towards the viewer, as are a number of other smaller parts along the keel and at the deck.
That is a great drawing though! Found it on the website there, was able to download a high res copy of the image.
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One other note on that cutaway view - in the plans, it explicitely calls out which is the inboard and outboard sides of the engine, and the controls are all on the inboard side, all the pipes/condensers are on the outboard side. So, I'm pretty sure that the cutaway is showing the engine in front of the centerline of the cutaway view, and the controls are in the normal place down the center between the two engines. The artist who drew that view took a little license in order to show parts that would have been buried behind the engine in a strict cutaway view.
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Okay, after spending most of the day out at the pond playing boats with the RC subs and having a great time with the rest of the gang, late this afternoon was spent on the computer finishing up the rest of the CAD work on the engine beds (this has been going on in the background all week). Got to a major milestone with the engine beds all modeled up. The one thing that may change is the angle of the support tubes along the front edge - the plans don't specify the angle, so I put them at the 30 degrees that they looked like. Once the frames and cylinders are in place much later on I can measure the actual angle to the holes in the cylinder blocks. These tubes have support rods angling up and across to the back of the cylinders to stiffen the whole assembly.
So, here is what its looking like now, with the bearing blocks and bearings all in place. There is a little more to do on the cylinder caps, to add the oiling and water jacket openings (they apparently had water cooling on the main crankshaft bearings). The plans are a little hard to decipher on the exact shape of the jackets internally, but at least I can get the openings.
(https://i.postimg.cc/8PtKf98Y/Engine-Bed-CAD-Model5.jpg)
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that is gorgeous! That was a ton of work in and of itself!!
Dave
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Ditto what Dave said!
That looks real nice!
Dave
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Thanks guys! Makes me wonder how many people spent how long at drafting tables 120+ years ago to design this engine originally. And made it work.
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Hi also with our models we can use a 36" or 12" ruler to measure everything from one datum end !! or did they have 45' rulers in those days ??!! :ROFL:
Willy
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looking good
i think of the pattern makers and foundry moulders making the mould to produce a good casting.
john
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looking good
i think of the pattern makers and foundry moulders making the mould to produce a good casting.
john
And the size of the crucible and furnace!
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Hi also with our models we can use a 36" or 12" ruler to measure everything from one datum end !! or did they have 45' rulers in those days ??!! :ROFL:
Willy
Hard to keep a 45' ruler in the back pocket! :Lol:
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for my 1880's to 1900 ship models I have many copies of plans from the National Archives,, the level of drafting and drawing always astound me.. plans for the USS Vesuvius circa 1883.. copy shown is reduced by 50% did have it enlarged to original size ....
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TGHS, how do you find/obtain plans from there? Do they have online searching/ordering of the plans? :atcomputer:
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most of the nautical stuff is here. they do have some online listings but mainly by description.. which will help if planning a visit,,
https://www.archives.gov/college-park
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My drawings of the ship USS Ohio I got separately from the Maryland Silver Company Don't know if they exist anymore
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My drawings of the ship USS Ohio I got separately from the Maryland Silver Company Don't know if they exist anymore
Maryland Silver Company was bought out by Loyalhanna Dockyard, which is owned by a friend of mine in our local RC boat group! He has been buying up small hobby shops and companies over the years as the owners retire or go out of business. He has a huge collection of ship plans and also the moulds to do fiberglass hulls, he does a lot of fiberglass work including ones for other existing RC boat companies. Not a bad sideline for a railroad signalling engineer working for a big company. I had mentioned this engine to him last month, he said he has the plans for the ship.
Chris
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Drew up the crankshaft while waiting for the cylinder parts on the other model to soak in the pickle solution. This crankshaft went fairly quickly, it turns out that each of the four sections is identical, just rotated/flipped for each section.
(https://i.postimg.cc/CLZ5RvK4/Crankshaft-CAD-model.jpg)
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my plans came through the MSC also ( the owner did the college-park work), some in the pre-internet era (a phone call one night put the owner looking for the Vesuvius stuff for me) had a feeling about the company so I made a purchase of about 6 plan sets.. have had some model ship guys do the college-park trip.. and find some great plans..need to get the Vesuvius of the shelf and finish her..(my navy steam engine drawing came through the owner of Elliott Bay steam launch) https://www.steamlaunch.com/
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for my 1880's to 1900 ship models I have many copies of plans from the National Archives,, the level of drafting and drawing always astound me.. plans for the USS Vesuvius circa 1883.. copy shown is reduced by 50% did have it enlarged to original size ....
I searched the national archives website for the Ohio, and found a listing for construction drawings for the Ohio, but it had no details on what pages they had. Sent the contact there a question asking what they have and how/cost for copies. Got a response back pretty quick, saying they have over 1400 pages on it! They have them digitized already, but they won't be up on the website for a few months, and I should check back to see them when they get posted. Should be interesting to see what they have!
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That's awesome can't wait to see them!
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Am I the only one surprised to see the crankshaft bolted together in sections? I would think the shear forces from an 8000 HP engine would be problematic. Maybe it was normal and I’m showing my naïveté. I guess limitations at the time prevented a one piece crank that large. This is going to be another amazing build!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Am I the only one surprised to see the crankshaft bolted together in sections? I would think the shear forces from an 8000 HP engine would be problematic. Maybe it was normal and I’m showing my naïveté. I guess limitations at the time prevented a one piece crank that large. This is going to be another amazing build!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Well, it was common for the shafts from the engine back to the prop to be bolted together too. This engine is around 35 feet long, that would be a tough one to make in one piece. Each joint has eight 3 inch diameter bolts, I don't see any keys in the drawing. They must have got it right, they worked!
I thought it was clever that all four sections are identical, just flipped end for end and rotated as needed.
Another interesting thing is that the shafts and crankpins are hollow, not solid.
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So...."each joint has eight 3 inch diameter bolts"...these would have been precision "fitted bolts'..with interference tolerancing...the coupling halves were aligned with transitional temporary bolts, then the actual bolts soaked in dry ice for 24 hours ....[or liquid Nitrogen]....this then being sufficient to shrink the bolts by 0.003" [with Nitrogen] so ultimately an interference fit
[not going too far off thread Chris ......I have personally witnessed by sub-Contract, the shrinking of a 3.000" diameter x 12" long steel pin into in the heads of a Recieving Stand rolling mill cylinder assembly in the Steel industry.......most interesting was the liquid Nitrogen was decanted from an Autoclave on the back a Ford 1/2 tonne utility into a white polystyrene Broccoli box....... then the pin lowered into the nitrogen via an overhead crane] :toilet_claw:
At the time of Ohio's build, the engineers had heat treatment of steel [brick box with coke, :stir: carbon a few old leather boots & a few bones] down pat :Lol:
In addition, the total sectional area of 8 x 3" bolts would by far exceed the sectional area of each crank web pin, however this must be based on the bolt sections being in the transition of the interference, otherwise they could shear, like Dominos :hammerbash:
Even today's 100,000 SHP marine diesel engines are fabricated with bolted construction
Derek
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Am I the only one surprised to see the crankshaft bolted together in sections? I would think the shear forces from an 8000 HP engine would be problematic. Maybe it was normal and I’m showing my naïveté. I guess limitations at the time prevented a one piece crank that large. This is going to be another amazing build!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Well, it was common for the shafts from the engine back to the prop to be bolted together too. This engine is around 35 feet long, that would be a tough one to make in one piece. Each joint has eight 3 inch diameter bolts, I don't see any keys in the drawing. They must have got it right, they worked!
I thought it was clever that all four sections are identical, just flipped end for end and rotated as needed.
Another interesting thing is that the shafts and crankpins are hollow, not solid.
Quite common actually, The reason was to be able to carry a spare crank throw on board for when you're half way around the world and you have a problem. This was and is very common to carry spare parts on board for breakdowns. Today, Pistons, rods and rings are common breakdown items and are carried as spares on many modern diesel ships.
Dave
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the 1890's cruisers USS Brooklyn and USS New York were both 4 engine two shaft ships, cruising on 2 engines for economy, but "coupling" the engines for speed and power.. never found direct info on the "coupling" method except that it took 30 minutes at a minimum..at a dead stop, sounds like bolting to me!!! During the battle of Santiago and the chase that took place the Brooklyn was "caught" on 2 engines with no time to link the engines.. send cold beer from the wardroom down to the stokers, fire guns even when out of range to inspire the stokers, make all the steam you can and send it to the 2 engines...helped that the Spanish ships had fouled bottoms, low grade coal, and all their Scottish and Welsh contract engineers left the ships when war was declared..
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Chris and all,
I find this background information about the Big steam driven battle wagons absolutely fascinating. It's so interesting to hear all about the way they did things back then and what they had to 'make do' with. They understood steel and how to work it, but somehow they did it without the precision machinery of today. All in all, they did a pretty good job.
Some things were a bit crude. It'd hard to imagine having to stop for 30 minutes to 'bolt up' the other two engines, just to get the ship ready for 'battle stations'
Mike :cheers:
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Some more info regarding the inboard/outboard locations of things on this engine. Been studying the different plan views on the frame and cylinders some more, to get a better grasp of what all the protrusions/flanges/fittings they show are. The section views get fun since a number of them do things like go across the cylinder from one side to the middle, then angle over at 45 degrees to a support column flange. Shows a lot in one section view, but it can be disorienting till its figured out.
One thing I have noticed is that the reversing engine, which is a cylinder/piston that hangs vertically and actuates the Stephenson links to move from forward to reverse (rather than having the big hand lever common on smaller engines), is hung off the rear (outboard) side of one of the frame pillars that goes from the cylinder to the base. I'm used to seeing it on the 'front' or inboard side of the engine. The control levers for the reversing engine is just below that engine.
At first, I thought that meant that to reverse both engines at once requires two people, one on either side of the two main engines. I had based my original assumption on the one label on the engine bed page where the view from the side with the thin posts is labelled 'Front Elevation'. Turns out that is just to differentiate it from the other view called 'Side Elevation'. I had assumed it referred to the inboard side. Nope!
However, after closer inspection of how the frame mounts were labelled on the cylinder drawings, I reallized that I had been thinking of the engine backwards! The thin vertical posts are on the outboard side of each engine, and the thicker cast frames are on the inboard side of each engine. That puts the controls back between the two engines where one engineer can see and operate them all from the central catwalk or floor.
This doesn't change any of the CAD drawing I have done so far, other than I need to re-label parts I had been calling 'front' and 'rear'!
Also, the discussion from the other day stands - the condensers ARE on the outboard side of each engine.
Fun stuff, huh? It will be very interesting to see if the National Archives does have drawings that include the top and plan views of the engineering spaces, sounds like that may not be viewable on their website till later in the year. If I was going to be closer to Maryland I'd visit in person to find out sooner, but the only other option is to hire a researcher in that area to dig into things sooner, and thats not worth the money.
I did get a start on the vertical pieces of the frames. Here is the quarter view that I had thought was from the inboard side. Turns out the long side here is the outboard side of the engine:
(https://i.postimg.cc/5yp9R2VB/Vert-Frames-1.jpg)
And here is a view from the other side, actually the inboard side. This is the side that will have the reversing engine, controls, etc.
(https://i.postimg.cc/xjPdCtzX/Vert-Frames-2.jpg)
Dizzy yet? :insane:
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The other thing to keep in mind, is I bet this engine has steam jacketing on the cylinders and the cylinder heads. Lots to digest!!!
Dave
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The other thing to keep in mind, is I bet this engine has steam jacketing on the cylinders and the cylinder heads. Lots to digest!!!
Dave
Yes! Fortunately they give dimensions on the jackets, cylinder liners, passages, etc. The cross sections on those areas are very busy drawings! Some (well, most) of the views take a while to figure out where there are brackets sticking out, that sort of thing. I can do one piece of a part at a time, then need time for my brain to cool off and reset. :insane:
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2D dwgs to 3D CAD will do that. They should sell each CAD licence with a brain cooler! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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You'd expect the heavier side of the engine to be inboard for stability.
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You'd expect the heavier side of the engine to be inboard for stability.
Good point! And the lower the better. These ships were so large that I don't know if that was a design issue or not, the bank of boilers probably was the biggest fixed weight? The thinner posts are removeable to take the crankshaft sections in and out if ever neccessary, and having the controls and reversing engine on that side would have been a problem. Also, with the condenser tanks and pipes on that side, there was room underneath them for access to the cranks.
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My guess is that the weight of the engines and boilers is pretty low impact for a battleship. I do not know any details for the Ohio BB-12, but later battleships had armor belts up to 18 inches (?) thick.
This ain't your grandfather's Chris-Craft. :Lol:
Gene
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My guess is that the weight of the engines and boilers is pretty low impact for a battleship. I do not know any details for the Ohio BB-12, but later battleships had armor belts up to 18 inches (?) thick.
This ain't your grandfather's Chris-Craft. :Lol:
Gene
:Lol: grand dad would have needed a BIG trailer to tow that one!!
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'Steamer' Dave very kindly gave me a copy of the set of plans he has of the engine from this ship.
Where do these drawings come from? I doubt I'll tackle this project, but Chris, I share your enthusiasm for just getting to pour over the drawings. They'd have to be out of copyright at this point....if they only exist in they physical form, I'd happy to volunteer to produce large format high res PDF's and make them available; I'd just like to see them.
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'Steamer' Dave very kindly gave me a copy of the set of plans he has of the engine from this ship.
Where do these drawings come from? I doubt I'll tackle this project, but Chris, I share your enthusiasm for just getting to pour over the drawings. They'd have to be out of copyright at this point....if they only exist in they physical form, I'd happy to volunteer to produce large format high res PDF's and make them available; I'd just like to see them.
They came from a big old book he has, most of its missing but for the plans. A friend of mine has a large format scanner, I'm going to be seeing him this weekend and will ask if he can scan my copy of the prints, if that's ok with Dave?
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All the plan sheets are labeled Union Iron Works in San Francisco. Just did some searching for that, lots of info on them, a bunch of the buildings still exist in a historic district and a bunch of interesting history about the yard...
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i would have thought it would have been good to have the open side of the engines to the centre to give lots of room for oiling but the side for the thrust face on the column would be determined buy direction or rotation and load on the cross head which way they prefer the propellors to turn when going forward.?
John
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John, those are, around here anyway, known as stiff leg engines. The pipe leg is removable to allow rod removal. I have a 6 hp. compound twin made exactly the same way. And with out that feature the cylinders would have to come off the get the rod out!
On that battleship engine the crank shaft is made in sections, each of which can be lifted out through the space left by removing the pipes which gives access to all the bearings.
Pete
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Chris......
I think you mentioned no evidence of keys in the crankshaft sections, and there is no larger diameter hub at each coupling, so could each of the crank pins have been machined from a forging to include the length of the pin + the larger section which was machined as the coupling half?
I am not sure why any single section of the crankshaft would need to be removed in the vessel life [excepting at major refit with the entire engine jacked up and the complete crankshaft removed]
If sections of the crankshaft were designed to be removed, my previous comment of interference shrink fitted bolts at the couplings would be invalid
Propeller shafts with bolted couplings is far less of an integrity problem, as the forces are [generally] acting in a single direction. The crank pin engine couplings however are subject to two opposite reaction forces at each revolution
Just out of interest, are these two crank pins the same length?
Hollow propeller shafts are common :happyreader: as the hollow section is stiffer and stronger than a solid shaft [of the same weight], however I am not sure in the use of hollow engine crank pins? :facepalm:
....courtesy Google ......... https://www.mechanicalfunda.com/2017/03/hollow-vs-solid-shaft.html#:~:text=The%20material%20at%20the%20centre,the%20same%20weight%20solid%20shaft.
Derek
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John, there are automatic oilers on the bearings and con rod ends.
Derek, there are four identical sections of crankshaft assembly, each bolted to the next at larger diameter flanges. Each section is flipped end for end from the one next to it, and also rotated some multiple of 90 degrees.
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'Steamer' Dave very kindly gave me a copy of the set of plans he has of the engine from this ship.
Where do these drawings come from? I doubt I'll tackle this project, but Chris, I share your enthusiasm for just getting to pour over the drawings. They'd have to be out of copyright at this point....if they only exist in they physical form, I'd happy to volunteer to produce large format high res PDF's and make them available; I'd just like to see them.
They came from a big old book he has, most of its missing but for the plans. A friend of mine has a large format scanner, I'm going to be seeing him this weekend and will ask if he can scan my copy of the prints, if that's ok with Dave?
I recently got a big cannon printer/scanner, like the kind does up to D or E sheets. I think it does 600 dpi, but the cool part is its colour so you can photoshop out yellowing etc. If it was of help, I'd assist.
Really liking the CAD progression!
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another source is the, transactions society naval architects and marine engineers many volumes can be found searching digital libraries.. but most of the plan fold-outs were not.. have had mine hands on hard copies but at the time I was more interested in full ship plans..sample below
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Propeller shafts with bolted couplings is far less of an integrity problem, as the forces are [generally] acting in a single direction. The crank pin engine couplings however are subject to two opposite reaction forces at each revolution
I do not think that is correct. The applied rotational force (torque) from each cylinder varies from zero to maximum twice per revolution, but it does not reverse. If it reversed during each revolution the engine would be quite ineffective.
Gene
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Propeller shafts with bolted couplings is far less of an integrity problem, as the forces are [generally] acting in a single direction. The crank pin engine couplings however are subject to two opposite reaction forces at each revolution
I do not think that is correct. The applied rotational force (torque) from each cylinder varies from zero to maximum twice per revolution, but it does not reverse. If it reversed during each revolution the engine would be quite ineffective.
Gene
I would agree with that Gene. This is a steam engine, not an internal combustion engine, so there is no compression stroke.
Mike
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Not only is it a Steam Engine where each Piston both Pushes and Pulls - but look at the Crank - 90 degrees Offset from Cylinder to Cylinder ...!!!...
Minima - Yes - But no Zero Power part of the Rotation ....
Where two Cylinders are approching the end of their Power-Stroke - the other two are taking over.
In that sense, it is actually not different from a two cylinder Double Acting Steam Engine with a single 90 degree offset - that is why they are Self Starting (as there are no dead spots) ;)
I Do understand the problem with an IC Engine - about Opposite Forces - but besides bringine the Piston to a Complete Stop @ each end of the Stroke .... I honnestly do not know the actual forces involved in such a Steam Engine - newer seen an analyze .... but I expect it to change quite a bit with regards to the Timings of the Valves.
Per
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Not only is it a Steam Engine where each Piston both Pushes and Pulls - but look at the Crank - 90 degrees Offset from Cylinder to Cylinder ...!!!...
Minima - Yes - But no Zero Power part of the Rotation ....
Where two Cylinders are approching the end of their Power-Stroke - the other two are taking over.
In that sense, it is actually not different from a two cylinder Double Acting Steam Engine with a single 90 degree offset - that is why they are Self Starting (as there are no dead spots) ;)
I Do understand the problem with an IC Engine - about Opposite Forces - but besides bringine the Piston to a Complete Stop @ each end of the Stroke .... I honnestly do not know the actual forces involved in such a Steam Engine - newer seen an analyze .... but I expect it to change quite a bit with regards to the Timings of the Valves.
Per
When he mentioned the zero to max, he specifically said the force from one cylinder. He is correct in that. You are talking about the force at the end of the crankshaft, also correct. Both right, but talking about different things!
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Most steam engines have 'line-on-line' exhaust. This means that as one end opens to exhaust, the other end closes.
Most engines also have admission lap in order to provide the economies of expansive working.
Lap means the timing has to be advanced to provide inlet 'lead' at top dead.
This means the exhaust point occurs well before the dead centre.
Releasing the exhaust a bit early ensures the back pressure is reduced to a minimum before the piston has got far into the exhaust stroke.
Advance also means that, at the other end of the cylinder, there is a simultaneous compression point. The purpose of compression is twofold:
Firstly it brings the pressure of the small amount of exhaust steam trapped in the cylinder up to a pressure approaching steam-chest pressure, ensuring that there is not a wastefull sudden inrush of steam at the admission point, and
Secondly, it provides a cushion to arrest the momentum of the reciprocating parts.
Ideally this results, at normal revolutions, in a fairly smooth change of thrust on the crankpin from one stroke to the other.
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Gents......my apologies......my word opposite as used is absolutely incorrect ............. :Doh:
At any set speed, the forces are more like a constant harmonic running in one direction
Derek :facepalm:
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Chris - I stand corrected - interesting subject none the less.
Charles - I kind of knew, but thanks for clarifying - that said, it still means that the Timing has a big influence on the outcome ....
Derek - I completely agree on a Steam Engine - but it was also mentioned that things are different in an IC Engine, where the Compression Stroke has an opposite force on the Crank (braking) ....
Per
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I spent a lot of time studying Liberty ship engines. Most of those had segmented crankshafts, and they did have large dowel pins as part of the couplings.
Of course there are lots of other differences as well.
Gene
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I spent a lot of time studying Liberty ship engines. Most of those had segmented crankshafts, and they did have large dowel pins as part of the couplings.
Of course there are lots of other differences as well.
Gene
Before getting the Ohio engine plans I had been looking at the Liberty Ship plans, that also looks like an interesting engine. Do you have any plans for one? I was able to find partial ones, but not enough to build from.
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I spoke with my friend with the large format scanner, he is going to scan these for me, they will be great to bring up in a window next to the CAD app, I had been using pictures I took of the sections of the sheets. Steamer Dave, any objections if I make the scans available to others? Not my plans, that decision is yours and I will abide by it without question.
Spent the day out at the pond with a large group of RC sub nuts from all over the place, US and Canada, awesome time. Well not the whole day, only 11 hours!! We are back at it tomorrow, got the battery chargers all busy now. Great to see a lot of them that we haven't been together with since pre covid, so many jokes and puns backlogged...
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Before getting the Ohio engine plans I had been looking at the Liberty Ship plans, that also looks like an interesting engine. Do you have any plans for one? I was able to find partial ones, but not enough to build from.
Live Steam had an extensive series back in 1980 or so on the Liberty ships, including a lot of details about the engine. Quite a few detailed prints included, but not really a full set.
I built a triple based on the well-known OB Bolton plans as modified by J. P. Bertinat, with some further modifications based on the Liberty ship drawings. No castings used. All bar stock.
Gene
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Before getting the Ohio engine plans I had been looking at the Liberty Ship plans, that also looks like an interesting engine. Do you have any plans for one? I was able to find partial ones, but not enough to build from.
Live Steam had an extensive series back in 1980 or so on the Liberty ships, including a lot of details about the engine. Quite a few detailed prints included, but not really a full set.
I built a triple based on the well-known OB Bolton plans as modified by J. P. Bertinat, with some further modifications based on the Liberty ship drawings. No castings used. All bar stock.
Gene
Sounds great, can you post a picture of your engine? Always fun to see engine pics!
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So Chris notes....
" Each section is flipped end for end from the one next to it, and also rotated some multiple of 90 degrees"
Acknowledged that I have never worked on, or even seen such period engines, however the crankshaft pin orientation appears to provide the inlet/expansion sequence to cylinders to be........ 1 -> 3 -> 2 -> 4.....does this align with your thoughts?
Maybe it's best to scrap this sketch and replace it with the nomenclature :atcomputer: Cylinders [1 - 2 - 3 - 4], then....
add a text note 1324 :shrug: ....or 1/1 - 2/3 - 3/2 - 4/4.....
Do we all understand this?...... :hammerbash: :ROFL:
Derek
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An excellent book on naval equipment is Naval Machinery available at https://www.amazon.com/Naval-Machinery-United-States-Institute/dp/B000MLGOJI/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2I053BI74K4PQ&keywords=naval+machinery&qid=1660571863&s=books&sprefix=naval+machinery%2Cstripbooks%2C215&sr=1-1 The triple expansion battleship engine described in the book is more modern than your engine. However, you may be interested in the detailed description of all the parts. I think that engine described may be from the battle ship Texas, the only reciprocating engine battleship still in commission at the beginning of WW II. See https://www.asme.org/about-asme/engineering-history/landmarks/10-uss-texas-reciprocating-steam-engines
Lohring Miller
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So Chris notes....
" Each section is flipped end for end from the one next to it, and also rotated some multiple of 90 degrees"
Acknowledged that I have never worked on, or even seen such period engines, however the crankshaft pin orientation appears to provide the inlet/expansion sequence to cylinders to be........ 1 -> 3 -> 2 -> 4.....does this align with your thoughts?
Maybe it's best to scrap this sketch and replace it with the nomenclature :atcomputer: Cylinders [1 - 2 - 3 - 4], then....
add a text note 1324 :shrug: ....or 1/1 - 2/3 - 3/2 - 4/4.....
Do we all understand this?...... :hammerbash: :ROFL:
Derek
Hi Derek,
Um, no. Remember that these are double-acting cylinders, not like on a gas engine, so it doesn't matter if the stroke direction is up or down, they do power both ways, and the exhaust from both ends of one are linked to the inlet valve on the next one - that is the key. On the final two cylinders, which are both LP cylinders, the exhaust from cylinder 2, the IP cylinder, goes to the inlet of BOTH LP cylinders so they can 'fire' in any order.
Does that make sense? There is probably an animation of this online somewhere for a four cylinder triple expansion if not.
Also, its impossible to tell from the picture I posted just of the engine bed, but the high pressure (#1 cylinder) is on the right, LP's are on the left. That doesn't effect the question or my answer, but it will keep things clearer later on as more parts get added!
Chris
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An excellent book on naval equipment is Naval Machinery available at https://www.amazon.com/Naval-Machinery-United-States-Institute/dp/B000MLGOJI/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2I053BI74K4PQ&keywords=naval+machinery&qid=1660571863&s=books&sprefix=naval+machinery%2Cstripbooks%2C215&sr=1-1 (https://www.amazon.com/Naval-Machinery-United-States-Institute/dp/B000MLGOJI/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2I053BI74K4PQ&keywords=naval+machinery&qid=1660571863&s=books&sprefix=naval+machinery%2Cstripbooks%2C215&sr=1-1) The triple expansion battleship engine described in the book is more modern than your engine. However, you may be interested in the detailed description of all the parts. I think that engine described may be from the battle ship Texas, the only reciprocating engine battleship still in commission at the beginning of WW II. See https://www.asme.org/about-asme/engineering-history/landmarks/10-uss-texas-reciprocating-steam-engines (https://www.asme.org/about-asme/engineering-history/landmarks/10-uss-texas-reciprocating-steam-engines)
Lohring Miller
Looks like a very interesting book - did a search over in Google Books, they have the 1946 edition that you can read/download! There are some things on the barring engine on the plans I have that I want to look up some more details on, also some things on the reversing engine. And thats just so far!
Thanks for the tip!!
Chris :cheers:
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There is probably an animation of this online somewhere for a four cylinder triple expansion
The Titanic had four-cylinder triple-expansion engines. There is quite a bit of stuff around the web related to the Titanic.
Not the same engines, of course, but a good introduction for anyone reading this who does not need the correct details to build the BB-12 engines.
Gene
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There is probably an animation of this online somewhere for a four cylinder triple expansion
The Titanic had four-cylinder triple-expansion engines. There is quite a bit of stuff around the web related to the Titanic.
Not the same engines, of course, but a good introduction for anyone reading this who does not need the correct details to build the BB-12 engines.
Gene
Gene very kindly sent me some info on the Liberty Ship engines, which while a different engine than the Ohio it shares a lot of features. Already came in handy to explain (to me) how the crosshead guide rails are shaped, all the lines were there in the Ohio drawings but I couldn't wrap my head around the third dimension for part of it.
Thanks very much! Am sure there will be more - always helps to look at pictures of similar engine designs.
:cheers:
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After having my brain kickstarted by seeing the closeup pics of the Liberty Ship engine, I went back and drew up the details on the crosshead guides. There is a rail either side that wraps around the plate that sticks out the back of the crosshead (red arrows)
(https://i.postimg.cc/CxDM1w8S/Crosshead-Guides-CAD.jpg)
Those rails were all shown in the drawing sheets, but the same views also had the piston rod and con rod in place, and the lines of the gap in the rails was hidden, and there was no top view of the guides. Having seen the photos of the other engine, the arrangement clicked into the 'well, thats obvious' category! :old:
Having that drawn in pointed out that I had the oil cups on the wrong side of the small end bearing holders, and they would have interfered with the crosshead guide caps, so I moved them around the other side (green arrow) as well. These cups get dripped into by the oiler lines that hang from the cylinders, and would have tubes running down to the big end bearings.
Next time I add more parts, I think they will be the crossheads themselves.
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An excellent book on naval equipment is Naval Machinery available at https://www.amazon.com/Naval-Machinery-United-States-Institute/dp/B000MLGOJI/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2I053BI74K4PQ&keywords=naval+machinery&qid=1660571863&s=books&sprefix=naval+machinery%2Cstripbooks%2C215&sr=1-1 (https://www.amazon.com/Naval-Machinery-United-States-Institute/dp/B000MLGOJI/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2I053BI74K4PQ&keywords=naval+machinery&qid=1660571863&s=books&sprefix=naval+machinery%2Cstripbooks%2C215&sr=1-1) The triple expansion battleship engine described in the book is more modern than your engine. However, you may be interested in the detailed description of all the parts. I think that engine described may be from the battle ship Texas, the only reciprocating engine battleship still in commission at the beginning of WW II. See https://www.asme.org/about-asme/engineering-history/landmarks/10-uss-texas-reciprocating-steam-engines (https://www.asme.org/about-asme/engineering-history/landmarks/10-uss-texas-reciprocating-steam-engines)
Lohring Miller
Looks like a very interesting book - did a search over in Google Books, they have the 1946 edition that you can read/download! There are some things on the barring engine on the plans I have that I want to look up some more details on, also some things on the reversing engine. And thats just so far!
Thanks for the tip!!
Chris :cheers:
Been doing some more reading in that book, it has great explanations of the reversing engine, it operates almost like a servo on a RC rig, moving the piston to match the position of the control arm. At first I was wondering if the second smaller piston above the larger one was some sort of compounding, but it actually has a oil-filled cylinder, piston inside, with small passages end to end, to make it act like a shock absorber, slowing the motion of the reversing piston without effecting its final position. Very cool stuff!
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Some more playing in Fusion, got the crossheads made, they are a pretty simple shape. After adding them to the all-the-components file, added the joint controllers for them and tried a quick animation to see how things look:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMRjx20wDwU
All looks good! :cartwheel:
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Man, I'd love to see the real full size engine making revolutions for flank speed! Must have been magnificent.
One thing I noticed in the video - the small end caps and nuts might be giving the crosshead guide bar studs and nuts a shave and a haircut.... :o I only mention it as item 22,394 to keep an eye on in the build! :Lol::cheers:
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Man, I'd love to see the real full size engine making revolutions for flank speed! Must have been magnificent.
One thing I noticed in the video - the small end caps and nuts might be giving the crosshead guide bar studs and nuts a shave and a haircut.... :o I only mention it as item 22,394 to keep an eye on in the build! :Lol: :cheers:
I'd be right there next to you watching it go! Going to have to get a ride on that Liberty Ship they take out from Baltimore next year, smaller but close!
I noticed the same thing, and measured the gap between the crosshead and the flanges, there is actually a minimum of a couple inches there, closest as it angles over in mid stroke. It looks so small since those parts are so large. I had already seen that the oil cups would have been shredded off and put them on the other side.
There are several places on the plans where the dimensions are hard to read, is that a 5 or 3, a 0 or 9? Redrawing it all in 3D CAD actually makes most obvious as to what they are.
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Great Animation + amount of work put into the 3D Model so far (all those details) :ThumbsUp:
:popcorn: :popcorn: :cheers: .... eh .... Double Up (two builds) :cheers: :popcorn: :cheers:
Per
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Chris- do you have a link to the google addition you found?
Thanks, Sid
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Chris- do you have a link to the google addition you found?
Thanks, Sid
This should get you there:
https://books.google.com/books?id=AhtVAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=editions:AsOVAwPT-GAC&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjMnKegws75AhVGMlkFHR_sDQMQ6AF6BAgEEAI#v=onepage&q&f=false
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Thank you!
Sid
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Todays CAD tidbits added, the pistons... The two LP piston heads are the same diameter. All four on conical shapes, hollow underneath, with rings on the rims.
(https://i.postimg.cc/W1Z91KYr/Pistons-CAD.jpg)
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Hello Chris,
For someone who considers himself a 'dyed in the wool' I/C engine guy, I find this Battleship Ohio Engine blog to be fascinating reading; and your 3D CAD drawings to be both a technology revelation and also beautiful to look at.
I see from your latest CAD drawing that Ohio's crankshaft throws were arranged to be in multiples of 90 degrees to each other. You explained the modular construction of the crankshaft and base (bed) plates earlier; so the 90 degree interval is quite logical.
In exploring other four cylinder triple expansion engines' I came across this Titanic website http://www.titanicology.com/Titanica/TitanicsPrimeMover.htm which also made for some fascinating reading. It is interesting to note not only the different location of the two LP cylinders, but a completely different timing intervals for the four cylinders. This diagram explains the Titanic's arrangement far better than I can.
(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/TITANIC2smal.JPG)
I guess reduced vibration for passenger comfort was considered more important than ease of construction, or component interchangeability to simplify through life repair and maintenance in the Navy Yards.
Mike
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Hi Mike! I had known that some engines put the two LP cylinders at opposite ends, but had not known of the alternate crank angles, quite interesting. That web site is great reading, thanks for the link!
:cheers: :cheers:
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Hello Chris,
For someone who considers himself a 'dyed in the wool' I/C engine guy, I find this Battleship Ohio Engine blog to be fascinating reading; and your 3D CAD drawings to be both a technology revelation and also beautiful to look at.
I see from your latest CAD drawing that Ohio's crankshaft throws were arranged to be in multiples of 90 degrees to each other. You explained the modular construction of the crankshaft and base (bed) plates earlier; so the 90 degree interval is quite logical.
In exploring other four cylinder triple expansion engines' I came across this Titanic website http://www.titanicology.com/Titanica/TitanicsPrimeMover.htm which also made for some fascinating reading. It is interesting to note not only the different location of the two LP cylinders, but a completely different timing intervals for the four cylinders. This diagram explains the Titanic's arrangement far better than I can.
(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/TITANIC2smal.JPG)
I guess reduced vibration for passenger comfort was considered more important than ease of construction, or component interchangeability to simplify through life repair and maintenance in the Navy Yards.
Mike
That probably reduced the amount of pressure pulses hitting the center turbine from the LP exhaust. I suspect it was to reduce surging of the center turbine which was fed from the 2 LP's
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Got a start on the HP cylinder drawing, still a LOT to do on it (like adding the valve chamber, passages, top cap... ) These shapes are quite complex and there are lots of cross section views at different angles to wade through, so I can do a few sections at a time before the brain overheats.
(https://i.postimg.cc/cLwByzPX/HP-Cylinder-Start-CAD.jpg)
One good thing is that the four cylinders are independent parts, not all joined up in one massive unit. That will make fabrication a bit easier later on. They will have a series of horizontal rods connecting them in the front and back, that is what those brackets with horizontal holes are for. The HP valve is a piston valve, and will be on the right in the picture. The rest of the cylinders have massive D valves with Lovekin assist valves at the top to support their weight, more on those later.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Great progress Chris! :popcorn: :popcorn:
I'm looking forward to learning what a Lovekin assist valve is. I tried googling it and didn't come up with anything meaningful. I'm hear to learn!
Kim
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Great progress Chris! :popcorn: :popcorn:
I'm looking forward to learning what a Lovekin assist valve is. I tried googling it and didn't come up with anything meaningful. I'm hear to learn!
Kim
Dave pointed it out to me when I got the plans from him, I had never heard of it before either. At the top of the valve rod (valve being vertical) it goes through the top of the valve chest, like a tail rod normally does. But, rather than being enclosed to seal with the valve chest, it connects to another little piston that is open to the valve chest underneath, and open to the atmosphere above. That way, the steam pressure is pushing on the bottom of the little piston. It is sized so that pressure, at normal operating pressure of the engine, is about equal to the weight of the slide valve. That way the eccentric doesn't have to work hard to lift it. For a small engine, this is not needed. But, the slide valves on these giant engines are very large and very heavy, so they can operate over large ports for best flow to huge cylinders.
Hope that helps for now, I'll show it later on when its modelled in on the CAD engine...
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the other interesting thing that is definitely a part of BIG engines, the HP valve ports have stay bolts....which if you think about it for a moment, and remember that its running at 250 psi ( locomotive pressures) makes absolutely perfect sense....but it had me baffled as I looked at the prints at first....When I asked my Friend John Mathiews who had a British Unlimited license, he rubbed his chin and said. Probably stay bolts!....and the light dawned.....you have to remember the size of these things...they're enormous!
Dave
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Hi "C" interesting parts to make that you only get to model when you copy a prototype !! and all these extra parts can be included in the brass label plate ... so good to see the progress :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Willy
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Hi "C" interesting parts to make that you only get to model when you copy a prototype !! and all these extra parts can be included in the brass label plate ... so good to see the progress :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Willy
Thanks Willy,
There ARE a number of the cylinder/valve housing parts that I expect will be modelled correctly on the outside, but will have to be simplified a bit on the inside, like the passages which were done for real with casting cores but which would be impossible from bar stock. Well, without a silly amount of piecing up parts, I guess. Shhhh, I won't tell if you don't! :Director:
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the other interesting thing that is definitely a part of BIG engines, the HP valve ports have stay bolts....which if you think about it for a moment, and remember that its running at 250 psi ( locomotive pressures) makes absolutely perfect sense....but it had me baffled as I looked at the prints at first....When I asked my Friend John Mathiews who had a British Unlimited license, he rubbed his chin and said. Probably stay bolts!....and the light dawned.....you have to remember the size of these things...they're enormous!
Dave
Yeah, the SMALL piston is almost 3 feet across...! :o My lathe would fit into the steam inlet with plenty of room to rattle around.
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For those interested, here is the patent for the Lovekin valve discussed yesterday...
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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This interesting project reminds me of a model I've seen in an exhibition about 15 years ago. It was the model of one of Titanic's steam engines. The engine ran beautifully on compressed air. The modeller didn't want steam in the model because the risk of corrosion. I found three pictures in my archive.
Horst
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Horst, that Titanic engine is absolutely stunning!
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Karl Friedrich Pohlman:
https://www.wlz-online.de/waldeck/korbach/modellbauten-korbacher-hamburger-museum-13870631.html
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Mr. Pohlmann is the builder. I just wanted to quickly show the link and don't know if Mr. Pohlmann is still alive. His models are in a museum in Hamburg. A maritime museum.
Michael
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Karl Friedrich Pohlman:
https://www.wlz-online.de/waldeck/korbach/modellbauten-korbacher-hamburger-museum-13870631.html (https://www.wlz-online.de/waldeck/korbach/modellbauten-korbacher-hamburger-museum-13870631.html)
Amazing models. The link at the bottom of the page to the museum is very interesting, looks like a fantastic museum. Thanks for sharing!
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Karl Friedrich Pohlman:
https://www.wlz-online.de/waldeck/korbach/modellbauten-korbacher-hamburger-museum-13870631.html (https://www.wlz-online.de/waldeck/korbach/modellbauten-korbacher-hamburger-museum-13870631.html)
Amazing models. The link at the bottom of the page to the museum is very interesting, looks like a fantastic museum. Thanks for sharing!
Wow! Those are some astounding models!
Chris, your models are likely destined for museums too someday!
Kim
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Thanks Kim, very kind!
Some more drawing done on the HP cylinder and valve body. Some very complex shapes, I have to work on them in numerous sessions to be able to gather shapes and dimensions from all the different views in the drawings. I think I have the main shells done, next the top/bottom covers need to be worked on.
(https://i.postimg.cc/66PHPyQL/HP-Cylinder-CAD-1.jpg)
One thing I've noticed is that the pipe ends coming out of the valve body, both inlet and exhaust, show no bolt holes or flanges for bolts, but they do have stepped ends, which makes me think that those connections were welded. Other connections between pipe elbows and sections appear to be bolted, so I am thinking that they welded on the initial elbow or straight section, and used bolted flanges from then on. In that first photo, there are small pipe flanges on the right of the valve body, those are for relief/drain valves. You can also see how the passage from the top of the valve body comes up next to the top of the cylinder - the cylinder cap will have a cavity there to direct the steam up/over the lip and into the cylinder. At the bottom, the passage comes into the bottom cone.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Pr86nTpG/HP-Cylinder-CAD-3.jpg)
The little horizontal tubes on the outside of the cylinder are for stay rods that run between the cylinders to stiffen they whole assembly.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Mp29WNVn/HP-Cylinder-CAD-2.jpg)
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The modeling alone is a big job Chris! Stick with it, and don't burn yourself out on it.....just take nibbles.....
Dave
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The modeling alone is a big job Chris! Stick with it, and don't burn yourself out on it.....just take nibbles.....
Dave
I'm glad I have the Ransome Tree Feller project and the modelling for the steering engine to alternate with, the Ohio engine plans are quite complex and as you say need to be nibbled at, trying to eat the whole elephant at once would result in an explosion! :Lol: Thanks again for the plans!
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The modeling alone is a big job Chris! Stick with it, and don't burn yourself out on it.....just take nibbles.....
Dave
I'm glad I have the Ransome Tree Feller project and the modelling for the steering engine to alternate with, the Ohio engine plans are quite complex and as you say need to be nibbled at, trying to eat the whole elephant at once would result in an explosion! :Lol: Thanks again for the plans!
Yeah thank me when you're done!! LOL....and you're not living at the institute.... :insane:
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@Michael: Thank you for the info about the Titanic model and it‘s builder. I am glad the model got a good home and it‘s accessible to the public. It was excellent work!
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There is REALLY a lot of details and work - now and in the Future - just in the HP Cylinder unit :insane:
Considering all the complex models you have done so far - I'm sure you will be up to the task of building this one too ...!
Everybody need to stock up on :popcorn: an :DrinkPint: for this one .... should get quite a disount for the amount ;D :cheers:
Per
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This afternoon got very hot and muggy as some more storms are moving in, so a good time to go inside and play in the CAD world. More done on the HP valve chest, still needs the caps on that. The angle rods are in now too, going from the engine bed up to the back of the cylinders. The plans show the locations of the bases, but not the angles, so I had to wait till now to dial the angle in to come out in the proper places. The screen captures are getting very busy! This is going to be a very complex build...
(https://i.postimg.cc/yYLT6HrY/HP-Cylinder-CAD-4.jpg)
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Chris, that looks gigantic and I'm starting to lose track. So much interesting technology. And all this for the warships, which often found their way to the depths.
What is written in my old books about shipbuilding is also interesting. A distinction is made between whether it is built for the Navy or the Merchant Navy. Merchant Navy are made of cast iron and Navy are made of bronze! I believe that's why all Imperial Navy ships were raised in Scapa Flow. Because of the armor plates and all the bronze.
Michael
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Chris, that looks gigantic and I'm starting to lose track. So much interesting technology. And all this for the warships, which often found their way to the depths.
What is written in my old books about shipbuilding is also interesting. A distinction is made between whether it is built for the Navy or the Merchant Navy. Merchant Navy are made of cast iron and Navy are made of bronze! I believe that's why all Imperial Navy ships were raised in Scapa Flow. Because of the armor plates and all the bronze.
Michael
Wow, that would be a LOT of bronze! The plans for this engine only call out the metal used in a few places, for items like connecting rods and cylinder liners. This engine is huge, overall it is about 36 feet long and 20 feet tall. According to the CAD application, just what I have modelled so far is 103 tons, though I have the default material set to steel so it is assuming that for everything except what I have set to bronze for the bearings.
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Chris, Michael,
If you want to read more about the raising of the scuttled German High Seas Fleet from the bottom of Scapa Flow; Probably the greatest salvage operation of all time; you should obtain a copy of "Jutland to Junkyard" by S G George. It describes in detail, the raising of most of the major ships and the many near disasters along the way.
You may be interested in these two scans from the book, especially the analysis of the scrap recovered from a single battleship
(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/scrap_2.jpg)
(https://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/scrap.jpg)
Those were the values from the 1920's/1930's, The value of the pound is today about 80 times higher than 1933
Cheers
Mike
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Hi Mike, interesting listing and illustration.
A documentary on the subject was shown on German television. Almost all ships were lifted.
Chris, I didn't mean that the whole machine is made of bronze, but a lot of the equipment like pumps, valves, bushings........
I found another interesting detail in the book for ship machine systems. For connecting crankshafts. The bolts appear to have a cone. I thought it was just screws with a fit.
Michael
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Hi guys!
Mike, That book on raising the ships looks fascinating! Will look for it.
Michael, interesting detail on the crankshaft bolts. That way looks like it would be a lot stronger to shear forces than a normal bolt, and not have the wiggle room a normal one would have when reversing direction. Is that in the book you told me about on the steering engine thread? I've got that one on order.
Thanks!Chris
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Hi Chris,
there is another book about ship technology.
>Calculation and construction of the ship's engines and boilers from 1910<
A source of illustrations and information. ( although almost nothing about rowing machines. )
I used to collect a lot of books and catalogs about steam engines and mechanical engineering and steam locomotives for a while. Almost everything from the flea market (is that what it's called in English?)
I love these books.
Michael
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Yes - Flea Market is the correct term. Great collection of books - it is always fun to come across another old reference, they can come in very useful.
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Looks like that book is available on Google Books, though they have an earlier edition with fewer pages.
https://books.google.com/books?id=jfNLAAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22schiffsmaschinen+und+kessel%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiyyc3UlO_5AhX7FVkFHaNxD2UQuwV6BAgEEAg#v=onepage&q=%22schiffsmaschinen%20und%20kessel%22&f=false
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The book I have here has 820 pages.
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The CAD work on this engine have not been completely ignored (just mostly) while over playing on the design for the steering engine. The HP cylinder/valve assembly is done:
(https://i.postimg.cc/hP9VCqb4/HP-Cylinder-CAD-5.jpg)
The forked thing sticking out the bottom of the valve body is the crosshead guide for the valve rod. Given the size of the parts, and that the reversing lever is actuated by a large steam piston, they added this guide which is not normally there on a small engine. The bottom of the valve rod, where it goes into the reverse links, is kept from moving forward or back by this guide. The reverse links will span around the ends of these guides.
Also have a start on the valve assembly. The valve itself, the eccentrics, and the eccentric arms are drawn, next will be to start on the reverse links.
(https://i.postimg.cc/PrGmzqDF/HP-Cylinder-CAD-6.jpg)
That Naval Machinery book has some good drawings and explanations of the Navy style reverse linkages. Here are a couple pictures from it. First is the linkages. The slide link connected to the end of the piston rod is labelled 'K', the crosshead is 'C', riding in guide 'G'. Not quite the same shapes as in this engine, but same effect.
(https://i.postimg.cc/NfVZxmDv/Reverse-Gear-From-Book.jpg)
The other one is a diagram of the reversing engine itself:
(https://i.postimg.cc/ncM670v1/Reverse-Engine-From-Book.jpg)
The hand lever to control it connects at M, operating the valve V. The valve admits steam to one side or the other of piston A, which also moves the upper piston A'. That upper piston is a sealed unit a lot like a automotive shock absorber, it slows the movement of the piston so it doesn't slam to the other end too fast and damage the reverse gear. The crank arm at the very top, 'C', operates the reverse links on the cylinders the same way that a big hand lever would on smaller engines.
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I'm pondering the pattern for that casting :o.....You aint giving that to the rookie!
Dont forget the cast in steel stay bolts in the steam passagles!
Dave
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I'm pondering the pattern for that casting :o .....You aint giving that to the rookie!
Dont forget the cast in steel stay bolts in the steam passagles!
Dave
I don't know who the casting work will go to, but I want to watch!
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Well, the latest update of Fusion 360 keeps crashing and falling off the desk, so its slowed progress down some.... :zap:
But, have gotten the reverse links and eccentric straps drawn and hooked up! The posts sticking out in the middle of the links are where the reversing control arm hooks in. They put it in the middle, rather than at the end the way most small engine kits do it. The navy link style allows this.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Yq2cdtQM/HP-Eccentrics-CAD.jpg)
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Catching up on some more of the CAD drawing. After finishing up the reverse links for the HP cylinder, those links plus a number of the parts that are common to the other cylinders (valve glands, valve rods, piston glands, top caps, etc) were copied over to the other cylinder locations. Today after the pond run I started drawing in the IP cylinder. This got a big head start since the support blocks front and back are common with the HP cylinder and were copied. So far I have the outer cylinder and cylinder liner drawn, along with the cylinder base plate. Also drew the horizontal stay rods that run front and back of the cylinders. The ones over across the other two cylinders are farther out, and will go in the outer holes on the IP cylinder. Lots more to do on the IP cylinder first - the top cap assembly, then the valve assembly. The IP and the two LP cylinders use huge slide valves (D valves) that are so large they use Lovekin assist valves on top to support the weight of the valve sliders. More on that when I get to them.
(https://i.postimg.cc/43VDwmKW/IP-Cylinder-CAD-1.jpg)
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Im loving this Chris!
Dave
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Thanks guys. I've got no idea how I'll make a lot of these parts, but that's a lot of the fun of it!
:cheers:
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Keep modeling We'll figure it out!....
Dave
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More drawing on the IP cylinder, lots more to go. The steam chest/passages are quite complex. They used two ports per end of each cylinder to increase the volume of steam that would enter as the slide valve moved past the lead edge of the ports. The slide valve is a very complex shape too, as is the steam chest cover. Here is what its looking like so far:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Y9C7gBNC/IP-Cylinder-CAD-2.jpg)
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More drawing on the IP cylinder, lots more to go. The steam chest/passages are quite complex. They used two ports per end of each cylinder to increase the volume of steam that would enter as the slide valve moved past the lead edge of the ports. The slide valve is a very complex shape too, as is the steam chest cover. Here is what its looking like so far:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Y9C7gBNC/IP-Cylinder-CAD-2.jpg)
They're called double beat, balanced slide valves. Balanced meaning that they compensate the valve areas so that there is just enough force from steam pressure to keep them tight, and no more. Combine that with the weight compensating piston, and they were very high tech for their day.
Dave
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Quite complex shapes for the day. Along with some of the stay bolts that Dave mentioned. Each of those vertical spacer posts in the openings had a bolt through it, patterns of them elsewhere too. And all done without computerized stress analysis!
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Some more done on the IP cylinder, got the steam chest cap on, etc. The two LP cylinders share a lot of these parts, so I copied them over to those cylinder placeholders too. Below is a new screen grab - so much stuff that I had to turn on the component colors so it wasn't one big grey blob!
(https://i.postimg.cc/bwFVLGtb/IP-Cylinder-CAD-3.jpg)
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Great 'Print' - the colours really help here :praise2:
Per
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Great 'Print' - the colours really help here :praise2:
Per
Thats a feature in Fusion, an option to auto-color the components in the model. Only about half a dozen colors, and it repeats them randomly. It does make stuff stand out better in the pictures!
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
I like the Star Trek transparent aluminum LP liners! :Lol:
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I like the Star Trek transparent aluminum LP liners! :Lol:
Are you telling me that Chris is working the Hollodeck :LittleDevil:
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Not sure if the deck's a hollow deck or a solid plate.... :Lol: oh wait.... :Lol:
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I would have replied 10 minutes ago but I was laughing too hard! And you missed the Halloween tie in jokes, come on guys! :ROFL: Or the fact that the LP cylinders were supplied by Casper The Friendly Shop Elf? Okay, vintage TV binge night starts now! :popcorn:
And there I was, happily playing in the wood shop (inletting the barrel into the stock on the Baker flintlock) to recharge before starting the steering engine... Should be starting that thread tomorrow, the brass plate for the base and walls arrived this afternoon (too lazy to piece up those parts from smaller stock, there are just too many crossbars) and have been roasting away in the oven to stress-relieve them, cooling now.
So many hobbies, so few shop elves! :cheers:
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:cheers:
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Catching up on the latest CAD work. This got slowed down for a while since I was going back and forth with their support team after the latest update broke a couple things. That seems to be worked out, which puts the fun back in.
After doing more on the steam chest and valve slider, I decided to model in the pipes since that work had added the flanges they mount to. The pipes down the side act as the steam receiver chambers. Note that the IP cylinder sends its exhaust to both of the LP cylinders, and the exhaust from both LP cylinders collect up to one pipe on the way to the condenser.
It really covers a LOT of details on the side of the engine:
(https://i.postimg.cc/SNsJZ4DC/Pipes-CAD-1.jpg)
Which makes the other side of the engine much more interesting:
(https://i.postimg.cc/kXpDzHpZ/Pipes-CAD-2.jpg)
And yes, the two LP cylinders have not been drawn yet, just the common parts from the IP are there and will be adjusted to fit the slightly larger LP diameters. For now, they are still in Transparent Cast Iron alloy! :Lol:
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There's a lot of work there Chris - Even the supports are complex on this engine!
So the Fusion 360 guys were able to help you with the problem you were talking about the other day?
Kim
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Thats beautiful Chris!!!! Sweeeeet!
Dave
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Don't forget the crankshaft driven bilge pumps!.
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There's a lot of work there Chris - Even the supports are complex on this engine!
So the Fusion 360 guys were able to help you with the problem you were talking about the other day?
Kim
Well, I came up with a setting that seems to prevent the bug from showing, they have a couple of bug reports filed...
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Don't forget the crankshaft driven bilge pumps!.
And the reverse engine... And the barring engine. That one has me puzzled a bit, the plan doesn't seem to show how the barring engine worm gear is disengaged. Can you tell how that works? I am not seeing any pivot.
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on an engine like that....I suspect it had a big worm gear on a horizontal shaft that had to be screwed on to the bull gear while traversing the shaft it was on. That was a fairly common way to do.
I'll see if I can find another reference for a reversing engine that big.
Dave
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Looking at the drawing, I suspect the bottom of that tower is on an eccentric, and the tower pivot about the axis of the top worm gear.
Dave
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on an engine like that....I suspect it had a big worm gear on a horizontal shaft that had to be screwed on to the bull gear while traversing the shaft it was on. That was a fairly common way to do.
I'll see if I can find another reference for a reversing engine that big.
Dave
So they would screw it on, then push in the key to hold it from turning on the shaft? The keyway does extend out a ways.
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Looking at the drawing, I suspect the bottom of that tower is on an eccentric, and the tower pivot about the axis of the top worm gear.
Dave
They show reversing engines from several different ships. Figures 34 35 is for Ohio, and it shows it bolted down through the frame at the bottom, and bolted to the condenser at the top.
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Looking at the drawing, I suspect the bottom of that tower is on an eccentric, and the tower pivot about the axis of the top worm gear.
Dave
They show reversing engines from several different ships. Figures 34 35 is for Ohio, and it shows it bolted down through the frame at the bottom, and bolted to the condenser at the top.
You are right! The big worm on the vertical shaft is keyed to it but free to slide axially. You will notice the cross key through the vertical shaft? That key or "cotter" would be taken out, the worm threaded down to the bottom shoulder, and the cotter re-inserted. I suspect there were some baring holes around there to unload that worm when they wanted to stow it for normal operation.
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The cotter would look like an old fashioned bearing take up wedge or Morse taper knockout wedge.
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Oh! I had been thinking it was a normal shallow groove with a square key like on a gear or pulley. But the drawing doesn't show the key extending down through the worm! :facepalm: . A through cross key makes much more sense! For stowing they could slide the worm up above the slot and let the key hold it out of the way, right?
:cheers:
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Yes Stowed with the key at least in place. I might add a retaining bolt or wire to the key...as it would be a hell of a wreck if that cotter let the worm drop underway!
To engage, you would need to run the baring engine such that the worm screwed its way down to the shoulder of the shaft, because it's keyed to the shaft. stowing would be to either run the baring engine in reverse or take the cotter out and let the engine do that....that sounds kinda scary to me!!
I hope that baring engine is reverseable!!!
Dave
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Only one eccentric on each cylinder of the barring engine, no Stephenson link, but the block is shaped like it would have piston valves, so it could be reversed with an external valve, same way the steering engine is.
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Only one eccentric on each cylinder of the barring engine, no Stephenson link, but the block is shaped like it would have piston valves, so it could be reversed with an external valve, same way the steering engine is.
My guess would be slip eccentrics. The eccentric will stay in what ever position it started in.
Nope internal valves like the steering engine. you need to be able to run and control that engine remotely...at least as far as direction of rotation. Keep looking!
Dave
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With the setup like the steering engine, a simple external valve to swap steam/exhaust feeds would be all it would need. The reverse engine drawing shows a valve that would do, it has the same requirement for reversing direction. They may well have used another instance of the same valve and lever.
Oh, for a WayBack Machine (that worked) and a camera... And a case of beer to share with the engineers to pick their brains over!
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That baring engine is 2m off the deck....you aint grabbin nutin honey!. Remote operation for sure. Probably lubricated from the next engine room deck above the main deck.
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That baring engine is 2m off the deck....you aint grabbin nutin honey!. Remote operation for sure. Probably lubricated from the next engine room deck above the main deck.
Aint nuthin small on that beast! The control levers for the reverse engine and drain valves is a good guide for how/where they placed them, I'll copy that for the barring engine since they don't show it in the drawing.
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Hello Chris,
I looked up another magazine about steam models and found a construction report about a large marine steam engine. There is a picture of the turn machine on the crankshaft. I copied a small picture and you can see how the model farmer added it. There are a few more pictures but I don't know if I'm allowed to show it from this magazine.
Michael
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Great picture! Could you email me the pictures?
Looks like that one has a pivot on the worm gear and links underneath to push it in and out of engagement.
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Catching up on the latest CAD work. This got slowed down for a while since I was going back and forth with their support team after the latest update broke a couple things. That seems to be worked out, which puts the fun back in.
After doing more on the steam chest and valve slider, I decided to model in the pipes since that work had added the flanges they mount to. The pipes down the side act as the steam receiver chambers. Note that the IP cylinder sends its exhaust to both of the LP cylinders, and the exhaust from both LP cylinders collect up to one pipe on the way to the condenser.
It really covers a LOT of details on the side of the engine:
(https://i.postimg.cc/SNsJZ4DC/Pipes-CAD-1.jpg)
Which makes the other side of the engine much more interesting:
(https://i.postimg.cc/kXpDzHpZ/Pipes-CAD-2.jpg)
And yes, the two LP cylinders have not been drawn yet, just the common parts from the IP are there and will be adjusted to fit the slightly larger LP diameters. For now, they are still in Transparent Cast Iron alloy! :Lol:
I sat down at the table with the plan sheets again, browsing through and sorting out which pages have been drawn in CAD, when I noticed a goof I made. The two exhausts from the LP1 and LP2 cylinders dont join up and go aft, they each come down seperately to either end of the condenser tank that sits next to the aft end of the engine. I'll have to redraw those pipes. The ones between the cylinders are fine as is, just the final exhaust ones need to be fixed.
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Found this online. About the same horse power.....
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Blown up a bit Take a look at the plumbing.....
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Massive engine! That a bank of thrust bearings to the left foreground? Modern engines just don't have the same character.
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That is one of the engines from the HMS Terrible.
Dave
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Been spending a little time in the CAD drawing over the last month, got a few more bits on. After fixing the pipe layout and adding the condenser tank, next main piece was the bilge pump on the end of the crankshaft. It sits behind the LP2 eccentrics, on the end of the frame. It has its own eccentric that drives two piston pumps, one on either side of the frame.
(https://i.postimg.cc/nhSsvYCb/Bilge-Pump-2-CAD.jpg)
Here is an overall view of where things are now:
(https://i.postimg.cc/YS4v8GW4/Bilge-Pump-1-CAD.jpg)
The last remaining subassemblies are the reversing engine and its links to the reverse gear on each piston, and the barring engine (labelled turning engine on the plans) that will sit at the HP end of the crankshaft. Quite a monster engine, going to be interesting to see how the sizes work out to get it small enough to build the cylinders but big enough to stay out of watchmaker territory. I'm intentionally staying away from those calculations for now! :paranoia: All thosew little dots around the steam chests and cylinder covers are studs and nuts!
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Might be an idea to buy a 1932 Brown and Sharpe cam drive screw and nut machine Chris, for all those 'dots'! We had some such 1930's screw machines at one firm I worked for that would make a brass #2-56 x 1/4" hex head screw about every 10 seconds. They may have all been scrapped by now, definitely ancient tech, but they could sure crank out the hardware! :cheers:
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Might be an idea to buy a 1932 Brown and Sharpe cam drive screw and nut machine Chris, for all those 'dots'! We had some such 1930's screw machines at one firm I worked for that would make a brass #2-56 x 1/4" hex head screw about every 10 seconds. They may have all been scrapped by now, definitely ancient tech, but they could sure crank out the hardware! :cheers:
Sounds like a fun machine. Dig one out of the back closet for me, will you? :Lol: Its getting harder to find external hex head small screws in steel these last few years, I try and stock up whenever I see them. Some sizes are still available easily, others are rare as unicorn fangs. Making a few in specific size is not hard, but by the hundred gets very tedious. Its like finding someone who still makes true engraved plates rather than laser printing them.
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Might be an idea to buy a 1932 Brown and Sharpe cam drive screw and nut machine Chris, for all those 'dots'! We had some such 1930's screw machines at one firm I worked for that would make a brass #2-56 x 1/4" hex head screw about every 10 seconds. They may have all been scrapped by now, definitely ancient tech, but they could sure crank out the hardware! :cheers:
A shop I worked at while I was in high school and college (in the late 70's early 80's) had a half dozen of those screw machines! Several different types & makes. Once I turned 18 I was able to run them. It was quite a blast! For about a day - then it became real drudgery work. It turned out a coupler ball every few minutes. And I had to keep the machine stocked with 20' bar stock, make sure it was operating well, and clean up all the parts that it spit out.
Aside from the boredom, it was great - paid my way through college with that job!
But they had some single spindle machines where 4 different stations would rotate around to work on the part. The faster machines had four spindles which would rotate to each of the different four stations. So clearly, the four spindle machines were 4x faster than the single spindle machines.
They were old machines even 40+ years ago.
That brings back memories. Working there in late high school is what solidified my intent to go to college so I could get a job where I didn't have to do the assembly line work!
Kim
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One more subsystem drawn up, the reverse engine and its links. This is a single-cylinder engine (red, next to and below the blue IP cylinder) with a second cylinder to dampen the speed of the movement. Its up/down stroke is connected to the long rod (yellow) along the length of the main engine, driving crank arms linked to each reversing link on each cylinder.
(https://i.postimg.cc/MKQgb2wm/Reverse-Engine-CAD.jpg)
One more subsystem to go, the turning/barring engine that will go on the end of the crankshaft next to the HP cylinder (left in the picture).
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One more subsystem drawn up, the reverse engine and its links. This is a single-cylinder engine (red, next to and below the blue IP cylinder) with a second cylinder to dampen the speed of the movement. Its up/down stroke is connected to the long rod (yellow) along the length of the main engine, driving crank arms linked to each reversing link on each cylinder.
(https://i.postimg.cc/MKQgb2wm/Reverse-Engine-CAD.jpg)
One more subsystem to go, the turning/barring engine that will go on the end of the crankshaft next to the HP cylinder (left in the picture).
Thats amazing Chris!!! So glad we worked out getting those prints going
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Thanks guys, its looking like a fun project. Big, but fun! May need to build a mobile crane for it.
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Hmmm, Been studying the plans to understand the details for the turning engine... Things are not matching up. On the general arrangements drawing sheet it shows the turning engine on the main engine side view, with some sizes and details. Over on the sheet with a variety of reversing engines, including one labeled specifically for the Ohio, is a turning engine also, but its not labelled specifically for the Ohio (these plan sheets include several variations on the auxillary equipment for several different ships.
I've come to the conclusion that the detail drawing of the reversing engine is for A reversing engine, but not the one on the Ohio. Similar, but not quite right. So, I am going to make some editorial decisions and take some features from both views, plus details from some of the books...
Now, my inquiries to the National Archives in the summer found that they have a large collection of construction and design drawings for the Ohio and the other two ships in that class, well over 1000 drawings. Normally to see them or get copies requires visiting their building or hiring a researcher to do it, and make copies. But, they told me that the whole collection of those drawings has been digitized and will be posted to their website 'hopefully in a few months'. I've been checking back from time to time, not there yet, but maybe for Christmas! Its possible that their collection has details on the engine, though it may just be they have the hull construction and other systems plans, with the engines coming in seperately. No way to tell yet... :shrug: In the meantime I'll take my best guess at that detail, as well as details on the control valves which these drawings hint at but dont go into details for.
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This design is really comming along Chris. You'll be making chips soon.
If you keep making big, heavy engines you're going ot need to invest in some hydraulic lift tables and carts to manage them. :LittleDevil:
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This design is really comming along Chris. You'll be making chips soon.
If you keep making big, heavy engines you're going ot need to invest in some hydraulic lift tables and carts to manage them. :LittleDevil:
Will need to install a overhead travelling crane system soon! I've intentionally not calculated how big this model would have to be to get the small parts functional while keeping the big parts small enough to fit on the machines. Not sure if its possible yet, going to wait till the CAD work is done first. Then I'll work on perfecting my TARDIS controller for the lathe to make it turn larger parts in a smaller space! :Lol:
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Greetings from the Isle of Skye!
Just marvelling at your CAD work. Barbarian before the gates of Rome again...
;)
gary
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Greetings from the Isle of Skye!
Just marvelling at your CAD work. Barbarian before the gates of Rome again...
;)
gary
Barbarians At The Gates - that was a good movie! :Lol:
Hope things are going well on the Isle - here its alternating between summer/fall and threatening to go into winter weather any minute. No snow yet, but frost warnings are up for tonight. Less outdoor time = more shop time!
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All good here thanks Chris - apart from not having a shop yet and machine tools all stored in the house.
Weather on Skye similar to yours. It never seems to know what season it is here... but that's ok. 8)
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Haven't drawn up the barring engine yet, but I did take a few minutes and made a spreadsheet to see just how big this engine model would be at different scales. It looks like 1:16 scale is the sweet spot for fastener size (makes the bolts around the cylinder caps 2-56 size) and small enough to turn the larger cylinder parts on the lathe (just, with riser blocks in).
At that scale, this beast would be 28.4 inches long, 7.112 inches wide (plus overhang for pipes), and 15.698 inches tall. Pistons in the 2.2 to 3.7" diameter range, cylinders up to 5" diameter outside. Crank total throw of 3"...
Dave, what have you gotten me into? Now I'll need to put on another room to display this one with the other big engines! It would be interesting to see what kind of power it would develop at 60 to 80 psi at this size. I think Dave just wanted a new engine for his launch! :Lol: One interesting thing is that the four cylinders are all on their own frame sections with their own crankshaft segments, so they could be test run independantly from each other. For a model run on compressed air, I'd likely have to do like I did on the Ward pumping engine and have compressed air fed to each cylinder with seperate needle valves to balance them.
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You're not making two, side by side, like in the real ships? :Lol: (now taking cover)
Time maybe to get the shop elves to start digging P1 and P2 levels under the house! :Lol: :thinking:
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Haven't drawn up the barring engine yet, but I did take a few minutes and made a spreadsheet to see just how big this engine model would be at different scales. It looks like 1:16 scale is the sweet spot for fastener size (makes the bolts around the cylinder caps 2-56 size) and small enough to turn the larger cylinder parts on the lathe (just, with riser blocks in).
At that scale, this beast would be 28.4 inches long, 7.112 inches wide (plus overhang for pipes), and 15.698 inches tall. Pistons in the 2.2 to 3.7" diameter range, cylinders up to 5" diameter outside. Crank total throw of 3"...
Dave, what have you gotten me into? Now I'll need to put on another room to display this one with the other big engines! It would be interesting to see what kind of power it would develop at 60 to 80 psi at this size. I think Dave just wanted a new engine for his launch! :Lol: One interesting thing is that the four cylinders are all on their own frame sections with their own crankshaft segments, so they could be test run independantly from each other. For a model run on compressed air, I'd likely have to do like I did on the Ward pumping engine and have compressed air fed to each cylinder with seperate needle valves to balance them.
Well Running on air will make it run pretty lumpy, compressed air doesn't expand like steam does, even at the same pressure, so you will be over expanding it. It might be wise to put some simplexing lines in so you can port compressed air to ALL the cylinders ...it will run better on air that's for sure........OR you could make up a 250 psig boiler.... >:D :embarassed:
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You're not making two, side by side, like in the real ships? :Lol: (now taking cover)
Time maybe to get the shop elves to start digging P1 and P2 levels under the house! :Lol: :thinking:
NO! (and yes, the catapult just fired a crew of angry Ninja shop elves your way) :Jester:
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Haven't drawn up the barring engine yet, but I did take a few minutes and made a spreadsheet to see just how big this engine model would be at different scales. It looks like 1:16 scale is the sweet spot for fastener size (makes the bolts around the cylinder caps 2-56 size) and small enough to turn the larger cylinder parts on the lathe (just, with riser blocks in).
At that scale, this beast would be 28.4 inches long, 7.112 inches wide (plus overhang for pipes), and 15.698 inches tall. Pistons in the 2.2 to 3.7" diameter range, cylinders up to 5" diameter outside. Crank total throw of 3"...
Dave, what have you gotten me into? Now I'll need to put on another room to display this one with the other big engines! It would be interesting to see what kind of power it would develop at 60 to 80 psi at this size. I think Dave just wanted a new engine for his launch! :Lol: One interesting thing is that the four cylinders are all on their own frame sections with their own crankshaft segments, so they could be test run independantly from each other. For a model run on compressed air, I'd likely have to do like I did on the Ward pumping engine and have compressed air fed to each cylinder with seperate needle valves to balance them.
Well Running on air will make it run pretty lumpy, compressed air doesn't expand like steam does, even at the same pressure, so you will be over expanding it. It might be wise to put some simplexing lines in so you can port compressed air to ALL the cylinders ...it will run better on air that's for sure........OR you could make up a 250 psig boiler.... >:D :embarassed:
Yeah, thats what I did for the Ward pumping engine - each cylinder has its own direct feed with a valve, the exhaust from each just vents off down to the final pipe. On the Sabino engine it ran okay with the simpling/starting valve just cracked open and the rest coming from the HP valve, but I doubt a 4-cylinder compound would run well on air.
Hmmmm, still have that boiler from your launch? :ROFL:
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It's about the right size! but only a little more than half the pressure required!
Dave
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You're not making two, side by side, like in the real ships? :Lol: (now taking cover)
Time maybe to get the shop elves to start digging P1 and P2 levels under the house! :Lol: :thinking:
NO! (and yes, the catapult just fired a crew of angry Ninja shop elves your way) :Jester:
Boy, I'm lucky I opened the skylight on the gasoline and tool shed today - one of my shop gnomes was sleeping off a snootful of Navy rum in there. While I build a new door and lock for the spirit locker I'll listen for the thump when the Ninja elves arrive thru the skylight. :Lol:
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You're not making two, side by side, like in the real ships? :Lol: (now taking cover)
Time maybe to get the shop elves to start digging P1 and P2 levels under the house! :Lol: :thinking:
NO! (and yes, the catapult just fired a crew of angry Ninja shop elves your way) :Jester:
Boy, I'm lucky I opened the skylight on the gasoline and tool shed today - one of my shop gnomes was sleeping off a snootful of Navy rum in there. While I build a new door and lock for the spirit locker I'll listen for the thump when the Ninja elves arrive thru the skylight. :Lol:
Check the fridge. They may already be there and getting a snack after the flight in... :Lol:
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It's about the right size! but only a little more than half the pressure required!
Dave
That's good, I wouldn't want to run a model at 250 psi anyway! :paranoia:
Good thing there is still a lot to do for the steering engine, there's a lot of stuff on the Ohio engine that needs planning on just how to make it. Lots of complex shapes everywhere.
So, Master Dave, if I can get this one built, what else do you have lurking in the files? :LickLips:
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It's about the right size! but only a little more than half the pressure required!
Dave
That's good, I wouldn't want to run a model at 250 psi anyway! :paranoia:
Good thing there is still a lot to do for the steering engine, there's a lot of stuff on the Ohio engine that needs planning on just how to make it. Lots of complex shapes everywhere.
So, Master Dave, if I can get this one built, what else do you have lurking in the files? :LickLips:
Like 6 other engines in sizes from about 200 to 750 HP...IMSMC
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It's about the right size! but only a little more than half the pressure required!
Dave
That's good, I wouldn't want to run a model at 250 psi anyway! :paranoia:
Good thing there is still a lot to do for the steering engine, there's a lot of stuff on the Ohio engine that needs planning on just how to make it. Lots of complex shapes everywhere.
So, Master Dave, if I can get this one built, what else do you have lurking in the files? :LickLips:
Like 6 other engines in sizes from about 200 to 750 HP...IMSMC
Oh my.
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You're not making two, side by side, like in the real ships? :Lol: (now taking cover)
Time maybe to get the shop elves to start digging P1 and P2 levels under the house! :Lol: :thinking:
NO! (and yes, the catapult just fired a crew of angry Ninja shop elves your way) :Jester:
Boy, I'm lucky I opened the skylight on the gasoline and tool shed today - one of my shop gnomes was sleeping off a snootful of Navy rum in there. While I build a new door and lock for the spirit locker I'll listen for the thump when the Ninja elves arrive thru the skylight. :Lol:
Check the fridge. They may already be there and getting a snack after the flight in... :Lol:
Wife's complaining this morning about tiny black greasy footprints in the butter in the fridge.........hoo boy...... :Lol:
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Major milestone, at least on the 'easy' part of this build! Got the CAD drawing of the engine complete with the addition of the turning engine. The plans did not show the details of the correct turning engine for the Ohio, just a partial view in the general arrangements. So, I took some artistic license and made up my own in the same location at the end of the crankshaft. I'm still waiting on the National Archives to upload the drawings they have for the ships in this class of dreadnought, its possible they will have more details in those. They gave a vague estimate of sometime this fall/winter to have them online, said they have the scanning done at least.
So, here is a screen grab of the CAD model:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Yq7PbNzn/Ohio-Complete-CAD.jpg)
Depending on the scale it gets build to, this will either be a big model, or a BIG model! :atcomputer:
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Wow! That will be big or BIG, won't it! :)
I'm sure you've said this in your other descriptions but what is that big yellow tank behind the engine?
Kim
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Wow! That will be big or BIG, won't it! :)
I'm sure you've said this in your other descriptions but what is that big yellow tank behind the engine?
Kim
That is the condenser for the exhaust, so they could re-use the exhaust back to the boilers (with appropriate oil seperators too). I'd likely leave that off the model, just for space reasons.
Its an interesting design on the engine, the way that the crankshaft, frame, and cylinders are all modular to a large extent. The frames either side of center are mirror images of each other, the crankshaft is made of four identical sections flipped and rotated as needed that all bolt up to make the final shaft. The cylinders are only connected by the stay rods between them, plus the reverse rod and pipes. Even so, the components on the original are enormous, to get a sense of scale, those black dots around the cylinder top caps and the steam chests are 1.5" diameter bolts! The sliders for the IP and LP valve chests are over 4-1/2 FEET on a side, and have little pistons above them to help support their weight on the eccentrics. The crankshaft is 15-1/2" in diameter... The propeller it drove is roughly 15 feet in diameter (two engines each driving one prop).
I'm sending the shop elves to the gym to muscle up for lifting the bar stock this beast will need - at whatever scale I decide on, it will be big.
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It looks gigantic.
You have to decide whether you want to take the model to an exhibition with both hands or with a pallet truck. ;D
Michael
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It looks gigantic.
You have to decide whether you want to take the model to an exhibition with both hands or with a pallet truck. ;D
Michael
And it would have to fit in the back of the car as well! The Ward pumping engine plus the Marion shovel models are the two heaviest ones I've done so far, they are just over 100 pounds each, had friends come in to help move them. The Marion model has only made one trip out of the house so far, when I took it to get pictures with its big brother out by the quarry - had to make a special platform for it to strap onto, with handles on the corners, so we could carry it, also had a two-wheel hand truck set up for the platform.
Since Dave was the supplier of the original plans, maybe I'll just make him come over and carry it around! :Lol:
I'll have to get a weight estimate out of Fusion for the model once I pick a scale and have a scaled version of the CAD model...
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:lolb: :lolb:
Well....I'll move it if I need to.
Is this something you want to get into Chris?
Dave
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:lolb: :lolb:
Well....I'll move it if I need to.
Is this something you want to get into Chris?
Dave
Yes! Just the usual pre-big-project feeling of what-am-I-doing!?! Same thing before the Ward, Marion projects, not as bad as before I started the Kozo New Shay, which got me to learn machining for real. Spent about 8 years with his books before I finally jumped in and tried it, one of the best things I did.
Still tons to do on the steering engine, and I would like to go back and redesign the valve on the tree feller and get it to work properly. Might also do a simpler project too, been wanting to do a steam hammer.
:cheers:
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Hi "C". looking forward to this new build and learning with your new solutions to your building techniques !!
"W"
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They've already got a steam truck. Now you want to add a steam hammer? And repair the non-functioning steam saw?
How well equipped/armed do you want that elf army of yours' to be? Especially since you know that they can bypass your security on the Rum locker.
Don
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Hi "C". looking forward to this new build and learning with your new solutions to your building techniques !!
"W"
Every new build is a new adventure!
Heard this one once - Its not a problem, its an opportunity. The trick is not to get insurmountable opportunities! :Jester:
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They've already got a steam truck. Now you want to add a steam hammer? And repair the non-functioning steam saw?
How well equipped/armed do you want that elf army of yours' to be? Especially since you know that they can bypass your security on the Rum locker.
Don
Well, if they are well armed elves, and they have a truck, I can send them over to raid OTHER peoples shops!! Um, what was your address again? :Lol:
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Uhhhh, I'm in Oz? Yeah-yeah, that's right. It's REAL easy to find, just follow the yellow brick road.
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Uhhhh, I'm in Oz? Yeah-yeah, that's right. It's REAL easy to find, just follow the yellow brick road.
Oh no, shop elves singing munchkin songs all night... :lolb:
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Uhhhh, I'm in Oz? Yeah-yeah, that's right. It's REAL easy to find, just follow the yellow brick road.
Oh no, shop elves singing munchkin songs all night... :lolb:
It's spreading, My Elves have picked it up and are chanting at night in Elvish with a Galic accent Munchkin Songs accompanying it with Elve Pipes and Drums.
Gerald.
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Uhhhh, I'm in Oz? Yeah-yeah, that's right. It's REAL easy to find, just follow the yellow brick road.
Oh no, shop elves singing munchkin songs all night... :lolb:
It's spreading, My Elves have picked it up and are chanting at night in Elvish with a Galic accent Munchkin Songs accompanying it with Elve Pipes and Drums.
Gerald.
Maybe feed them peanut butter, will at least cut down the singing!
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Okay, now that the steam hammer build is on hold waiting for parts, it is time to get back onto the Ohio battleship engine! :cartwheel:
The CAD work has been done for a while, all the drawing of the engine was first done at full size dimensions since that is what the original plans (which I got from 'Steamer' Dave, thanks for that!) were at. Then I played around with different scales to make the model at, to figure out what would fit on my lathe/mill plus what the fastener sizes would come out to as well as plate thicknesses and such. I finally settled on 1:20 scale for the model, which puts it at 23.5" long x 12.5" tall overall.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sfZSBxjt/Ohio-Engine-CAD-Model.jpg)
The engine is a triple expansion steam engine, with four cylinders rather than the more typical three. They made 2 low pressure cylinders rather than one but with the same total volume. That reduces the width of the engine quite a bit, at the expense of making it longer, but that is easier to fit into a ships hull than one twice as wide. The engine produced 8000 HP at 125 RPM from 250 PSI steam. There were two of these engines in the ship, each driving one propellor, giving the ship a rated speed of 18 knots. The cylinders were 35.5" (hp), 53" (ip), and two at 63" (lp). For the model, the cylinder bores will be approximately 1.7", 2.6", and 3.1".
They designed it with a lot common parts between the cylinders - the crankshaft is made of four identical pieces bolted together with appropriate flip/rotation between them, con-rods and eccentrics/rods are all the same, vert frames are the same, and even the D valves ont he IP and LP cylinders are the same. The D valves are enormous, double ported and with Lovekin pistons at the top of each to help support the weight - those are in the little domes at the top of the steam chests. The HP valve is a spool/piston type, though I may make that one a D valve inside the same shell just for ease of making it seal well - will decide that later.
In the drawing above there is a vertical red cylinder next to the IP section, that is the reversing 'engine', it is single piston inside with a dampening chamber, a lot like a modern hydraulic ram. It moves the reverse links back and forth.
Also the eagle eyed among you may notice the HP and IP pistons sticking out the sides of the cylinders - thats just because I lined up the pistons on the crank pins but didn't bother putting in all the joints to line the tops back up inside the cylinders. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!
Here is a view of the crankshaft, showing how the identicall sections bolt together. Each of the shaft rods, including the crank pin, are hollow to save weight - those shafts were about 15.5" diameter so a lot of weight saved.
(https://i.postimg.cc/15GqHdNB/Ohio-Engine-CAD-Crankshaft.jpg)
Where I am starting is on the engine beds:
(https://i.postimg.cc/7h7Tjstx/Ohio-Engine-CAD-Beds.jpg)
Again, a lot of common parts - the two middle and two end sections are identical, just mirrored. Each section bolts together with the next, which does make the model a little easier since each section can be made seperately then bolted up. All the bearing block pieces are the same. For the model, these beds are a bit of a challenge since they are shaped like I beams with rows of cussets down each side of the center web. Also, the frame height towards the camera is lower than on the opposite side, where the vertical engine frames will go. A lot of ways all that could be built, what I decided on was to piece them up from flat bar stock. What I'll do is mill shallow slots down the length of the top/bottom panels, and drill holes through the center of the slots. That will let me bolt up the 'I' shape for silver soldering. Each side and cross rail will be made complete first, then bolted up into the square section. Before soldering, I'll also mill cross slots in the top/bottom pieces so I can slide in all the gussets and not worry about how to hold them for soldering.
So, what is needed first is the holding jig to make all those rail sections, milling slots and drilling holes in matching pairs. If I had to align and edge find for every piece clamped down I'd go nuts (well, more nuts than I already am) pretty quickly. The cross slots in each top/bottom pair need to match for the gussets to come out vertical - that would be a lot of measuring too, so I wanted to be able to clamp each top/bottom pair down next to each other so I can milleach of those slots in one pass. Here is what I came up with:
(https://i.postimg.cc/rFX45Tzz/IMG-2925.jpg)
This is a hardwood block (dont ask which wood, its some tropical hardwood from the wood shop, I had gotten a lot of samples back when making the ship models) with clamping grooves down the side to hold it to the mill plate and also to allow for clamps along the outer edge of the metal parts. The screws down the center have washers/nuts to let me clamp onto the parts without turning the screws - running the screws in and out many times would wear the wood and make the screws wobble. It didn't need to be this tall, but thats how big the block was. I needed some height since the smaller end mills needed on some of the slots are very short, and the mill head wont go low enough to reach the mill table for those.
After bolting it all down on the mill table, I took a pass with a large end mill to recess the top surface, which accomplishes two things. It forms a step on each side around the screws and also one at the left end. That will provide index points so the parts can be put in and out in the same place each time, so I only need to edge find and center once. Also, it allows the top rail to go on one side, and the bottom rail on the other, with the inside faces sticking up to mill the slots. I can also mill on the ends to trim the rails for length, and down the sides to do the shaping on the side rails which have narrow middle sections combined with wide areas where they meet the cross rails. This wood block will stay in place during all that work. The mill vise is still there off the right side of the mill table.
With the jig sorted out, next was to prep all the flat bar stock. I made up a cut list from the plans, and marked off the pile of bars for all the main pieces (will do the gussets later). Its a LOT of pieces to cut, 64 in all, not counting the gussets and the bolting flanges.
(https://i.postimg.cc/bJ4tCcTC/IMG-2924.jpg)
The bars range from 3/32 to 3/16 thick, and 5/8, 3/4, 1" wide, depending on where they go. Fortunately the longest piece is under 6", since the beds bolt together in four sections, so I don't have to work on 24" long bars when doing the grooves. Bar stock this thin is flexible, and from the supplier the thinner ones have a little bow down the length so I did a little straightening in the vise to get them mostly flat, they will be held tight with screws to the sides of the thicker center webs for silver soldering.
Thats where things are at right now - need to spend some time at the saw to rough cut that pile to length, then on the mill to square up one end of each before trimming all of them to final length.
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Pulling up a chair and the beer is chilling! :cheers:
Dave
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Pulling up a chair and the beer is chilling! :cheers:
Dave
Damn straight! :popcorn: I'll bring the chex mix too! Better than the super bowl!
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Pulling up a chair and the beer is chilling! :cheers:
Dave
Damn straight! :popcorn: I'll bring the chex mix too! Better than the super bowl!
Who has the M&M's? :Lol:
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Whiskey can bring that!....he's bringing the ribs too! 8)
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Got a start on the stock prep after lunch. A little while on the bandsaw, then a touch on the ends with the belt sander to remove the burs left by the saw, and the blanks for the engine beds are ready for trimming. This pile does not include the plates for bolting the sections together or the gusset plates.
(https://i.postimg.cc/7672RPLC/IMG-2926.jpg)
Here are two plates in the holding jig to give a better idea how it will work. One each side of the screws, clamps on the outside - this is how they will be positioned for cutting the shallow slots across the width of the top/bottom plates to hold the gussets. For doing the lengthwise slots, I'll just have one plate at a time on one side, so I only have to center it all up once and just run it left/right down the length, then same setting to drill the screw holes for silver soldering.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Fz4LXtfT/IMG-2927.jpg)
First though, they need a soak in the oven to stress relieve them before trimming to length and cutting down the sides to form the profiles - don't want them to edge set at all when cutting down the sides. As usual, an hour at 500F in the oven will do the job. Sometime soon I may also cut the cylinder blanks to rough length and stress relieve them - rather do that in the winter than to overheat the house in the summer!
Thanks for watching along!
Chris
:cheers: :cheers:
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The screamin jimmy dump truck with one exhaust stack missing is on its' way with another 12 ton load of best grade hard white popcorn. You'll likely hear it about two counties out, and also look for the steam cloud - rad's popped a bit of a leak.... :Lol:
Looking forward to watching this project! :cheers:
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The screamin jimmy dump truck with one exhaust stack missing is on its' way with another 12 ton load of best grade hard white popcorn. You'll likely hear it about two counties out, and also look for the steam cloud - rad's popped a bit of a leak.... :Lol:
Looking forward to watching this project! :cheers:
With the snow lately the popcorn will pick up some salt off the roads on the way! :ROFL:
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Pulling up a chair and the beer is chilling! :cheers:
Dave
Damn straight! :popcorn: I'll bring the chex mix too! Better than the super bowl!
I'll bring chips and fresh Salsa! :DrinkPint:
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I'm going to have to check my solder futures, thinking they might be rising a bit!!
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It's going to be an interesting trip and I'm going to get another bottle (or two) of beer from the cellar.
Is steam on by the end of May? I don't know if you said it already, are you building the port or starboard engine?
Michael
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I'm going to have to check my solder futures, thinking they might be rising a bit!!
Only from Kim's boiler maybe, I still have several feet of each grade solder. Smallhex nuts and bolts are always on the shopping list though!
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It's going to be an interesting trip and I'm going to get another bottle (or two) of beer from the cellar.
Is steam on by the end of May? I don't know if you said it already, are you building the port or starboard engine?
Michael
By May?? This engine? Not a chance! Well, you didn't say which May! :Lol:
As I recall this is the starboard engine, the condenser is outbard, reverse engine is inboard, prop shaft is at the LP end. I have side view cutaway drawing of the ship, but don't have top views for the engineering decks. The National Archives have them, but not online, and its a long way to go in person.
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Them's a pile of parts already and you're only looking at the base! This is going to be another gargantuan build! :popcorn: :popcorn:
I'm going to have to check my solder futures, thinking they might be rising a bit!!
Only from Kim's boiler maybe, I still have several feet of each grade solder. Smallhex nuts and bolts are always on the shopping list though!
Yeah, I just got another shipment of silver solder yesterday! ;)
Kim
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Them's a pile of parts already and you're only looking at the base! This is going to be another gargantuan build! :popcorn: :popcorn:
I'm going to have to check my solder futures, thinking they might be rising a bit!!
Only from Kim's boiler maybe, I still have several feet of each grade solder. Smallhex nuts and bolts are always on the shopping list though!
Yeah, I just got another shipment of silver solder yesterday! ;)
Kim
When I was trying to figure out the scale to build at, the cylinders were a big part of that. I lucked into a big brass roundbar drop at Yarde Metals, 4" diameter x 15.5" long, 60 pounds :o , got it for a small fraction of usual cost, and they only charged me $16 to ship it! Enough to get the three larger cylinders out of with spare left over, had some smaller bar that is good for the HP alread. Since the cylinders have SO much stuff attached (angled round mounts, large rectangular mount, steam chests, stay rod mounts, etc), there is going to be a lot of drilling/milling into the cylinders needed, screws through the sides to hold parts for soldering, all that kind of thing. So, I am planning to make the cylinders like the originals with the outer shell as one piece and an inner liner for the actual bore. I can get automotive cylinder sleeves/liners in cast iron at the sizes I need, so I can use those for the finished bores and not worry about the silver soldering/drilling/through-bolts needed on the shell. Still a LOT of material to remove in the shell, but as with the last couple models they are blind bores, only open at the top, so cored material is not suitable, and this monster bar was a LOT cheaper than even cored or heavy wall pipe.
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This will be another interesting build for sure and I am looking forward to watching all of these intricate wee parts being made and assembled.
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This will be another interesting build for sure and I am looking forward to watching all of these intricate wee parts being made and assembled.
Glad to have you along for another ride! There are a LOT of intricate shapes in the original castings, should be some fun puzzles to work out how to make them from bar stock. :cheers:
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Started in on taking the bars for the engine bed to length. Started by taking a light truin cut on one end of each bar - held sets of them in the mill vise with one end slightly out to cut upon, but had to select which ones were in each stack since the bars are not quite even width down their length, they vary a couple thou here and there, just enough to not clamp stacks sideways well. I knew this from when I first bought the bars and checked them with a caliper, part of the reason I made the holding jig like I did.
Then have started in on taking them to desired length with the jig, one at a time. For each set of a given length, am clamping in the first one, and taking it to length by taking a pass and measuring, repeating till I get where it needs to be. Then zero the handwheel, and the rest of the set can go a lot faster since I don't have to sneak up on it but can use the handwheel number. You can see where the cutter is going into the wood underneath slightly, thats no problem, the jig is sacrificial and for next project I can just face off the top and start over on a new surface.
(https://i.postimg.cc/L67417fy/IMG-2928.jpg)
Each one is going pretty quick once the first bar is done and handwheel zeroed. Just push bar into the back left corner to index it, clamp in and snug the screws, couple passes down to the zero mark, vacuum chips, take out part, repeat...
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Nice assembly line work, Chris. Which is good, cause you've got several dozen of them to do! :popcorn:
Kim
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Thanks Kim, working good so far. First three sets of 8 are trimmed to length. After these 64 parts there are 12 bolting flanges, then a gazillion gussets!
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Thousands of years ago when my fellow toolroom dinosaurs and I were working away, the requirement would come down for various brass electrical contacts to be prototyped as blanks. We would need to make 100-200 of these flat blanks, usually less than 1/2" x 1 1/2" in size, which would later be used for design tests or to prove out bowl feeders or other assembly tools. To make this large number of parts we developed a technique using the wire EDM machine we had for making dies, punches, mould inserts, etc. A stack of rectangular blanks would be made up of brass of the needed gauge, clamped tight in a vise, and TIG welded with a couple of fusion-only no-filler beads up each side face, to firmly secure the sheets in the stack. Stack was then bolted to a plate and appropriate start holes drilled for the wire. The stack and subplate was placed in the wire EDM, the wire fed, water flow started, then the profile was cut. Wedges were fitted in the kerf as the cut progressed to keep the stack from shifting during cut and at the end of cut. Cut speed with a 1" high brass stack was about 3/16" to 1/4" per minute as I recall. After the cut or cuts, the 100 or 200 blanks were ready to use, with almost no burrs. This trick allowed lots of identical and very accurate blanks to be made before the very expensive production stamping tool was designed or made. If changes in design or function were needed they could be done on these cheap prototype blanks and the expensive tools made when the contact design was finalized. :Love:
Only mentioning it in case you knew anyone with a wire EDM in their work or home shop. It would make short work with the technique above of the gazillion gussets. (I have a conventional EDM that I built years ago but not a wire EDM machine. Love to make one someday, we shall see. :old:) There were a few mould and pattern shops around Rochester that used to have wire EDM machines but not sure now. :cheers:
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Hi CNr,
Now I have an image stuck in my head of a row of T-Rex's running a row of big mills, struggling to reach the cranks with those little arms... :lolb:
There used to be a lot of small job shops around Rochester NY supporting Kodak, Xerox, Bausch, Delco, Rochester Products, and all the rest of the big manufacturers that were big here. Not sure what is left. Now its a couple colleges and hospitals that are the major employers.
The gussets really won't take that long once the jig is made and set up on the rotary table to cut an arc in the end of a flat bar and then trim it off to length. They are not dimension critical like the current bars are.
Did another session on the length trimming, another couple sets done, should be done with that tomorrow. Then can start in shaping them to width and shaping the inside edges of the side bars to form the arcs where the cross rails meet the sides.
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Most of us in the toolroom were species Crankylosaurus so operating the machine tools was less trouble than the T rex's, and our skulls and skins were thicker. The T rex's were mostly confined to the management area of the plant. :o :thinking:
Some said Crankylosaurus evolved the longer arms to lift other things frequently. :DrinkPint: (likely just a rumour) :Lol:
Looking forward to seeing oceans of brass chips pouring off your machines! :cheers:
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Continued trimming the engine bed bars to length, got the last of them done this morning. For the thicker bars, I put another bar on the other side of the jig so the washer/nut didn't tilt and try to push the bars outwards.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sfqZWS1y/IMG-2931.jpg)
The stacks of bars after trimming - looks the same as before but they are all the proper lengths now and all square at the ends, no saw marks left.
(https://i.postimg.cc/SRB2p0Hj/IMG-2932.jpg)
Then on to something more interesting - shaping the side bars. They get narrowed between the crossbars, and flare out where the crossbars intersect. This step will take a little while, going to set up for each cut once, then run through all the bars in the set, then set up for the next cut, to ensure consistancy.
(https://i.postimg.cc/gjXX5cSf/IMG-2933.jpg)
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All this talk of T-rex's and Crankylosaurususes reminded me of this guy. Enjoy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYXpRWHVIPE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYXpRWHVIPE)
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: the fixture's working great!
The youtube video from ddmckee was great too!
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All this talk of T-rex's and Crankylosaurususes reminded me of this guy. Enjoy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYXpRWHVIPE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYXpRWHVIPE)
Great video!!
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All this talk of T-rex's and Crankylosaurususes reminded me of this guy. Enjoy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYXpRWHVIPE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYXpRWHVIPE)
Great video!!
Yes, that was hilarious! I had to share that with my kids! One of them always jokes about having short T-Rex arms :ROFL:
Kim
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Then cut the second section to finish forming the flanges on this set, which are for the two outer end side rails. The flanges are wider on the two upper rails on the outboard side, since those are wider to take the round vertical columns. The other 6 are all the same, narrower than these two.
(https://i.postimg.cc/gJN2GxBx/IMG-2934.jpg)
Next will do similar cuts on the 8 rails for the middle two engine beds - those sections are longer but the spacing between flanges is the same.
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Late to the party after freeze damage repairs, but.....,WOW! :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :cheers:
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Late to the party after freeze damage repairs, but.....,WOW! :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :cheers:
Thanks Steve! The swarf is flying!
:cheers:
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More cutting done on the rail pieces
(https://i.postimg.cc/QtrxcHtM/IMG-2935.jpg)
All the horizontal rail parts are now taken to length/width, and am starting in on the vertical webs. The crossrails are notched in the middle for the bearing block supports, and shorter at the one end to match the outboard frame rails. Once that is done, I can start in on putting in the assembly grooves.
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It really is a lot of brass parts! You quickly lose track of things.
Maybe you can use a "click system"
develop and connect everything without soldering and screws. How these wooden toys share models made of lasered wood. And the workshop elves have to build it together.
No, I was kidding. Very good work from you. As always.
Michael
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It really is a lot of brass parts! You quickly lose track of things.
Maybe you can use a "click system"
develop and connect everything without soldering and screws. How these wooden toys share models made of lasered wood. And the workshop elves have to build it together.
No, I was kidding. Very good work from you. As always.
Michael
A Lego battleship engine! :Jester:
Thanks Michael!
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The last of these sets needing to be trimmed to size are the vertical webs for the cross bars - these are tall at one end, shorter at the other, and even lower in the middle to take the bearing blocks. Since the cuts are all rectangular, I decided to just do them in one set in the mill vise. To get them all lined up with each other, they were loosely held with a clamp at one end while sitting on a flat plate, and a square used at the other end to line them all up before tightening the clamp:
(https://i.postimg.cc/5yQXmZJ4/IMG-2936.jpg)
Then over to the mill vise and trimmed down at the one end and in the middle:
(https://i.postimg.cc/vDRc238W/IMG-2937.jpg)
All the trimming on these blocks is done, so next I'll move on to cutting the slots in the centers of the top/bottom parts to take the vertical webs, all will be temporarily held with small screws for silver soldering.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
I'll bet you were watching purty closely to make sure one of the shop elves didn't stick his boot toe between the square's scale and one of the strips! :Lol:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
I'll bet you were watching purty closely to make sure one of the shop elves didn't stick his boot toe between the square's scale and one of the strips! :Lol:
STOP giving them ideas! They read these posts! :facepalm2: :Jester:
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I keep forgetting they see everything here! :Lol:
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I keep forgetting they see everything here! :Lol:
And ThEy tYPe sum ov ThE poSTs two... :lolb:
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This morning I got together with the shop elves and mocked up the layout on the engine bed pieces before going further, just to be sure I had things right.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Sx1rr1nn/IMG-2938.jpg)
Turns out that I had miscounted and cut a couple extra of the vertical bars - no loss there, that material will get used eventually. Everything else looks right, so on to cutting the grooves to aid in assembly for soldering. I calculated the position of the slots from the outer edge of the bars, then used the mock-up stacks to mark which face of each bar gets slotted since its important to make matched pairs for either end. The first bars were taken over to the mill, adjusted the mill table to give the right spacing, and cut the slot .020" deep down the length.
(https://i.postimg.cc/RFKLvMXt/IMG-2940.jpg)
Here are the first two frame rails, one top, one bottom, with the slots on the inside to make a bookmatched pair.
(https://i.postimg.cc/KYd5XKrF/IMG-2943.jpg)
and a test assemble with the vertical bar:
(https://i.postimg.cc/0N6CHGSc/IMG-2944.jpg)
The slot will keep things aligned, and I'll drill small screw holes through the top/bottom rails into the vertical one to keep it all in place when soldering. I tested a couple of the bars in the slots, and found (not surprisingly) that since the bars vary a couple thou in thickness here and there that some will need a few file swipes to fit properly in the slots. These are just rolled out bars, not precision ground, and the outer corners are not perfectly square. Just like a lot of 'round' bar isn't quite round. No problem as long as it is taken into account.
So, will continue on milling the pairs of rails. The crossbars have thicker vertical webs so those will need to use a larger end mill, and those vertical bars will extend halfway across these side rails to lock the sidebars and crossbars together - that will be done after they are all slotted and drilled. I want to do the drilling with the mill table centered on the slots still, to ensure the holes go in the center of the slots. Lotsa careful work to come...
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Great progress! That is going to be one sturdy engine bed. The real thing must have given crane operators some tense moments.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Great progress! That is going to be one sturdy engine bed. The real thing must have given crane operators some tense moments.
Just went into Fusion and got its measurement of the weight - the entire frame weighs about 35000 pounds (not including bearings/caps), but the frame is made up of four bolted together sections which must have helped move it - one of the two middle sections weighs about 9000 pounds. Thats still a lot to move, given that each section is over 9 feet long/wide.
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You going to be silver soldering the frame together? If you don't intend to put steam to this thing will soft solder be good enough?
Just wondering, because that looks like a LOT of brass to get up to silver soldering temperatures. Not to mention the cost difference between silver and soft solder.
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You going to be silver soldering the frame together? If you don't intend to put steam to this thing will soft solder be good enough?
Just wondering, because that looks like a LOT of brass to get up to silver soldering temperatures. Not to mention the cost difference between silver and soft solder.
Well, even if not running on steam, running on similar pressures of compressed air would give similar stresses, wouldn't it? Still, soft solder might hold well enough given the lengths of the seams, but if I am wrong on that then trying to re-solder later with silver would be a disaster, between the soft solder residue and having to dismantle/clean/redrill/screw things together again.
It is a lot of brass overall, but remember that the frame is made up of four bolted-together sections, one per cylinder. That cuts the mass to heat in each frame by a lot. Also, I am planning on doing each of the four rails in each section seperately, to let me get access around all sides for the gussets. Then, the four rails will be screwed together at the corners, and the corners soldered together. Also, there is no need to get each entire piece up to temperature all at once, but can start at one end and work towards the other, soldering as it goes. When I did the I-beams for the Marion steam shovel it was a similar situation - that had beams several feet long each, and I worked along the length heating and flowing the solder as I went. The torch can heat up several inches at a time to flow temperature, and the heat transfer warms the next section but not enough to get the flux to its melting point, let alone the solder. Each beam took maybe five minutes to work along the length. Those were steel rather than brass, but a similar effect will happen here. Brass doesn't conduct heat as well as copper, so its a lot different than doing a boiler.
Later on for the cylinders, those will also be silver soldered, lots of brackets/parts sticking out and lots of stress on the parts.
As for cost of silver solder, its not that much. Buying silver solder at a Rio Grande at todays spot price for example, its only about $1.50 per foot for any of the grades for the wire. A half inch length of the wire flows out over a few inches of seam when doing these thin parts, so a little goes a long way. I'll spend almost as much in propane possibly than in solder!
Does that reasoning make sense?
Chris
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Works for me.
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Hello Chris,
I have found that soldering large brass parts with soft solder is sometimes difficult. I have noticed the brass needs to be heated slowly and patience. It quickly gets too hot with a big flame and the solder burns and makes everything problematic. I also much prefer to solder with silver solder.
I have a question about the drawings of the machine in the general view. I looked at it a little bit enlarged. The modules are also labeled in German. Do you have any information about that? It's rather unusual for a US warship.
Michael
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Hello Chris,
I have found that soldering large brass parts with soft solder is sometimes difficult. I have noticed the brass needs to be heated slowly and patience. It quickly gets too hot with a big flame and the solder burns and makes everything problematic. I also much prefer to solder with silver solder.
I have a question about the drawings of the machine in the general view. I looked at it a little bit enlarged. The modules are also labeled in German. Do you have any information about that? It's rather unusual for a US warship.
Michael
Hi Michael,
The only larger parts that I have soft soldered were attaching thin sheet to thicker bars, and had to experiment with fluxes to get that to work well without having the solder puddle off on the sheet stock. For parts like this, I too like the silver solder better.
This engine is an interesting case - according to the books, they started designing this ship with two 5000hp engines, and the same US shipyard was working on a ship under contract for Russia, which was going to be faster. Naturally the US Navy got upset at that, and wanted more powerful engines and to make their ship faster. Given the time constraints, they wound up choosing a design from Germany for 8000hp engines, which this one is. These plans are labelled in both German and English, they are from a book published in Germany in 1904, same year this ship was launched. I got a copy of the plans from 'Steamer' Dave on this forum, he has a copy of that book and very kindly had them scanned for me. Its fantastic to find designs for old engines that are not the usual ones everyone builds, I find that its a lot more interesting to do a less common one (like the steering engine you got me plans for!)
I've since found plans for a steering engine and the chain/rope windlasses from the battleship Kearsarge on the US National Archives website, those three will be some future projects for me (the chain windlass has its own engine, the rope windlass that was next to it has a seperate engine).
Chris
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The book "Nauticus" from 1911 reports on the latest achievements in war ship construction worldwide. There are also some ships from the USA. I have to read up on it.
Michael
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Chris, really impressive to see you make those webbed beams from slotted stock. I was wondering how those shapes came about. Makes perfect sense, now. :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :cheers:
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After all the slots were cut in the top/bottom side rails, I went back through them drilling clearance holes for 2-56 screws. Got lucky and found a center drill in the drawer that had the right size for the holes so no swapping back and forth with a twist drill. The mill table was still in the same position as used for the slots, so the holes were already lined up in that direction. Just had to decide on the spacing down the length, drilled all the same spacings.
(https://i.postimg.cc/15vSt0Ym/IMG-2945.jpg)
Then it was time to drill/tap the holes in the vertical rails to match them. Doing these in the vise, triple checking to make sure I'm lined up properly on the correct end of each bar.
(https://i.postimg.cc/xTfYnp5p/IMG-2946.jpg)
Got one bar drilled/tapped so far, here it is test fit with the top/bottom rails:
(https://i.postimg.cc/7ZbkTCpg/IMG-2947.jpg)
One down, seven to go. Then I can start on similar operations for the 8 cross bars. Those bars also need to have slots in the side rail top/bottom pieces, since they extend out to meet the side rail vertical webs...
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Slight change to the setup for drilling the vertical webs - with the sides hanging out the end of the mill vise, I had supported the end, but the bar is so thin that it was wobbling a bit side to side, so I've added a thick steel bar next to the bar and a clamp at the end - now its supported up/down as well as side/side.
(https://i.postimg.cc/jSWjYkd0/IMG-2948.jpg)
Three webs drilled/tapped, 5 to go...
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That looks like a good move, Chris. :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
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Thanks Kim! Five rails drilled, three more to go before starting on the cross rails...
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Off to an excellent start :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: I will be following along :wine1:
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Off to an excellent start :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: I will be following along :wine1:
Thanks Roger! :cheers:
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Lots more holes drilled/tapped, now have the vertical webs for the side rails all test assembled with the top/bottom rails. For size reference that is a 6 inch ruler just in front of the brass rails.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Wzs2Ygnh/IMG-2949.jpg)
It may look like the side rails are ready to solder, but not halfway there. Still to do on the side top/bottom rails is to slot for the ends of the cross rails, drill screw holes for them, and then slot for all the gusset pieces down both sides of each beam. And add the bolting plates at the ends...
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
:cheers: :cheers:
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That's going to be one big engine! :popcorn: :popcorn:
So are you going to fit all the pieces together and solder them all in one op? Or will you do it a few pieces at a time? Or have you decided yet :)
Kim
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That's going to be one big engine! :popcorn: :popcorn:
So are you going to fit all the pieces together and solder them all in one op? Or will you do it a few pieces at a time? Or have you decided yet :)
Kim
All decided - mentioned it a few posts back. The side/cross rails will be soldered up seperately, with all the gussets and other flanges in place. Then will screw the ends of the crossbars to the side rails and solder those joints. The entire frame is made of four sections that bolt together - thats how it was done on the original. So, each section can be made seperate, and bolted together. This question has come up a few times, guess I should have done a screen grab like this to make it clearer:
(https://i.postimg.cc/s2VCrsWN/Frame-Sections.jpg)
The largest section that needs to be soldered up is about 5.5" x 5.5", which is very manageable. The bearing block supports, engine mount pads, and the bolting flanges will all be pieced in. The two middle sections and the two end sections are all mirror images of each other, with the exception of the extra flanges on the upper left end that will hold the pump.
:cheers:
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Thanks for the rehash, Chris. I read for detail! I just don't remember for detail... :embarassed:
I did remember that the for lager sections will be separate parts, bolted together.
Are you going to use 16 bolts in each connection as shown in the drawing? That will make for mighty small hardware!
Kim
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that's a lot of webs/gussets on both the inside and outside.. not to mention all the other nubs and bits.. elves are going to looking at a lot of overtime, better increase the beer rations and aviod an elf strike...
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Thanks for the rehash, Chris. I read for detail! I just don't remember for detail... :embarassed:
I did remember that the for lager sections will be separate parts, bolted together.
Are you going to use 16 bolts in each connection as shown in the drawing? That will make for mighty small hardware!
Kim
I don't know if I'll be able to get all 16 in the flanges, will give it a try though. I have small pattern nuts in 1-72 and 0-80, the trick is how to get a wrench in there! Have some mini open end ones that should work. The flanges also have little gussets back to the main rails, figure I'll make the plates from thicker bar and mill the gussets into them.
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that's a lot of webs/gussets on both the inside and outside.. not to mention all the other nubs and bits.. elves are going to looking at a lot of overtime, better increase the beer rations and aviod an elf strike...
If I give them a larger beer ration they will need more stalls in their break room... :Lol:
This engine is full of tiny details - though on the real one the details were all massive! I find thats a lot of the fun, trying to get as much of that detail in without going too much more insane.
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One more sesion in the shop this afternoon, started in on the cross bars. The bottom rails go all the way across, the top ones are just short sections on either side of the bearing blocks. The bottom rails were slotted like the side ones were, just with a slightly wider end mill
(https://i.postimg.cc/VvT0xKHK/IMG-2950.jpg)
All eight of those are done, and have started in on the short sections. The outboard ones are wider to fit the vertical columns, the inboard ones are the same width as the bottom rails.
(https://i.postimg.cc/gcBhL0k3/IMG-2951.jpg)
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Thanks for the rehash, Chris. I read for detail! I just don't remember for detail... :embarassed:
I did remember that the for lager sections will be separate parts, bolted together.
Are you going to use 16 bolts in each connection as shown in the drawing? That will make for mighty small hardware!
Kim
I don't know if I'll be able to get all 16 in the flanges, will give it a try though. I have small pattern nuts in 1-72 and 0-80, the trick is how to get a wrench in there! Have some mini open end ones that should work. The flanges also have little gussets back to the main rails, figure I'll make the plates from thicker bar and mill the gussets into them.
Make them some little socket wrenches and extensions! You're making them use open end wrenches?
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Thanks for the rehash, Chris. I read for detail! I just don't remember for detail... :embarassed:
I did remember that the for lager sections will be separate parts, bolted together.
Are you going to use 16 bolts in each connection as shown in the drawing? That will make for mighty small hardware!
Kim
I don't know if I'll be able to get all 16 in the flanges, will give it a try though. I have small pattern nuts in 1-72 and 0-80, the trick is how to get a wrench in there! Have some mini open end ones that should work. The flanges also have little gussets back to the main rails, figure I'll make the plates from thicker bar and mill the gussets into them.
Make them some little socket wrenches and extensions! You're making them use open end wrenches?
Only for the ones right next to the rails where there isn't room for the socket... I would never make their job harder... :LittleDevil:
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Steady plodding along on the frame rails, next step was to mill in the slots for the crossbars where they meet the side rails. Here is a setup that explains why I made the holding jig able to hold two pieces side by side. The top/bottom rails need to have the slots match positions along their length, and with both pieces clamped in at once, both up against the end stop, I could mill both in one go. This will be even more useful later on when I cut the dozens of narrow slots for the gusset pieces, will be able to step along the rails doing both top/bottom at once.
(https://i.postimg.cc/GmgKdTXN/IMG-2953.jpg)
These slots allow the cross rails to fit into the side rails and hold everything in position
(https://i.postimg.cc/7LCV6PcL/IMG-2956.jpg)
Overall view of all the cross rails test fit
(https://i.postimg.cc/1twrGCyh/IMG-2955.jpg)
Then took each section, held the side rails tight with two long bar clamps (these are available from instrument maker catalogs and some ship model catalogs, come in a few different lengths) and drilled/tapped from under the bottom rails for screws to hold them in place for soldering.
(https://i.postimg.cc/vmpv6FFt/IMG-2957.jpg)
The first section is screwed together like this, and is quite rigid - good sign for after its soldered up. Three more sections to run these screws into, then I'll drill/tap for the screws to hold the bottom cross rails in place...
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Chris, the jigging and frame work are really impressive. Nice, too to see big bags of golden screws in the background. It must be fun when that kind of stuff arrives in the mail(?) I always get excited when parts arrive for things. :popcorn: :popcorn: :cheers:
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Chris, the jigging and frame work are really impressive. Nice, too to see big bags of golden screws in the background. It must be fun when that kind of stuff arrives in the mail(?) I always get excited when parts arrive for things. :popcorn: :popcorn: :cheers:
Definitely fun when stuff arrives, always glad when I see that they put the little boxes of screws inside bags so they don't dribble out of the shipping box across the countryside! :Lol:
The one I'm looking forward to the most is the column casting for the steam hammer, that is supposed to be delivered on Tuesday afternoon, it has cleared customs and is on the way up here from Memphis. I've heard that the Royal Mail service over in the UK is back to sending international packages again, but fortunately Stuart sent this FedEx, which is a lot faster anyway - if sent through the mail, packages coming here go through customs in New York City, which takes at least a week most times. In Memphis, its just hours. :shrug: I noticed in the tracking that FedEx must have its main depot in France, they lobbed the package over the channel from near London, then flew it over from France. When that arrives I'll switch projects for a couple days to finish up the hammer...
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More nice progress, Chris! :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
I think years ago the small screw makers didn't use plastic bags so that the lost ones left a trail, much like dropping breadcrumbs in the Hansel and Gretel fairy tale. That was the only way some delivery drivers could find the way back to the warehouse again, pre-gps. :Lol:
One time I ordered a long length of some special very expensive steel. When it got here it was about a foot short and had an angled ground surface on one end. Yep, the driver hung it out the tailgate and dragged the end on the road 330 miles, all the way from Montreal to Toronto where I was living! :o :facepalm2:
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Did you order surface ground stock?
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Did you order surface ground stock?
No, this is just ordinary rolled bar, so there are places that are a little thicker than others. Some of the bars needed to be filed to flatten out high spots so they would fit in the slots. Nothing too bad.
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That was directed to cnr6400.... :lolb:
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To VT Steam - no, I didn't! :Lol:
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That was directed to cnr6400.... :lolb:
:facepalm:
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Another day, another batch of holes drilled/tapped into the frames. The bottom rails for the cross bars are drilled/tapped to attach them...
(https://i.postimg.cc/mD3XRMT7/IMG-2959.jpg)
and have started on the short top rails for the cross bars. The area in the center will be filled in by the bearing blocks.
(https://i.postimg.cc/pr20dTd4/IMG-2961.jpg)
One section down, three to go...
(https://i.postimg.cc/nr039Jjz/IMG-2962.jpg)
After those are done, it will be time to start on milling the slots for the gussets.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Just puttering along! Amazing work, Chris :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Kim
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Amazing fabrication as ever :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :wine1:
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After a few days back finishing up the Steam Hammer build, things on the Ohio engine are rolling again. The next milling operation is to cut the slots in the top/bottom rails to hold the gusset plates. Same setup in general as the other slots, but with a 3/32" diameter end mill this time. I marked out the locations of the slots from the plans (they are not evenly spaced, and different on front and back rails) and took apart the first set to work on. There is a spacer block on the left end to put the slots between the screw hold-downs while keping the pair aligned with each other. The locations of the gussets is not really critical, but keeping the corresponding slots in the top and bottom rails is critical or they wont slide in properly. Most of them go all the way across the rails, but the ones where the larger cross rails are only go across the outsides.
(https://i.postimg.cc/3Nhd7xsV/IMG-2982.jpg)
Then reassembled that pair back on the frame to keep them sorted properly. They are labelled, but its easier if they are all kept screwed together.
(https://i.postimg.cc/j5PLG7Fy/IMG-2983.jpg)
On to the next pair of rails...
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You don't let any moss grow under your feet, do you Chris! Finish the Steam Hammer today and you don't even take a victory lap! It's straight back into the Ohio!
I'm trying to keep up! :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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You don't let any moss grow under your feet, do you Chris! Finish the Steam Hammer today and you don't even take a victory lap! It's straight back into the Ohio!
I'm trying to keep up! :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
There was a lap over to the restaurant for a 3 hour lunch with old friends first... :Lol:
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Here is where the engine bed is at the moment. All the side rails have been notched for the gussets
(https://i.postimg.cc/76CwcGKw/IMG-2985.jpg)
closer look at one section
(https://i.postimg.cc/sDCs627C/IMG-2986.jpg)
A piece of the material the gussets will be made of test fit in the slots top and bottom
(https://i.postimg.cc/DZtnKvNs/IMG-2992.jpg)
The gussets will be cut to length, then the outer end gets milled back into a concave curve.
I've started cutting the slots in the cross rails. The top ones are just short sections at either end, so they need to be handled a little differently. I'm cutting the bottom cross rail middle slots and one end at the same time as one of the top pieces, then turning the bottom rail around to do it with the other top piece, so everything can be lined up with the end of the rails against the end stop of the jig.
(https://i.postimg.cc/yxcB6qqG/IMG-2987.jpg)
First cross rail back on the frame:
(https://i.postimg.cc/DfX7PGWc/IMG-2988.jpg)
Bunch more of them to go...
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The last of the slots for the gussets have been milled out, and I've started in on drilling the many many (and many) mounting holes in the bottom plates for where the engine was bolted down to the ship. I'm planning on attaching the bed frames to a piece of 1/8" aluminum (with holes cut in for the cranks to pass through) and that will be set into a nice thick chunk of wood for a base that I found up in the shop (its either Spanish Cedar or more likely Mahogany).
(https://i.postimg.cc/rFjkPSSX/IMG-2993.jpg)
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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I'm with Kim! Im just trying to keep up!!!
Dave
:popcorn:
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I'm with Kim! Im just trying to keep up!!!
Dave
:popcorn:
So glad you made the copies of the plans for me, this one is challenging and a lot of fun! :cheers: :cheers:
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Looks good, Chris. Great admiration here for the framework. :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :cheers:
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More drilling on the bottom rails and got the last of those holes done - LOTS of them!
(https://i.postimg.cc/Hxqfj1NX/IMG-2997.jpg)
View from the top
(https://i.postimg.cc/C1B3Fxcw/IMG-2996.jpg)
Did a little trimming/cleanup on the ends where the top rails overhung a little, and now am getting ready to make the gusset plates. There are 72 of the taller ones on the inboard side, and 70 shorter ones on the outboard side. Later I'll make the 48 that go on under the bearing blocks. :insane: First step is to prep the stock, need to trim the width of the bars to match the openings. Here is the stack of bars needed for the tall/short bearing blocks:
(https://i.postimg.cc/4ypj9FCM/IMG-2998.jpg)
I'll trim them to width using the jig on the mill, then swap that out for the rotary table which will need another jig to cut the arcs in the gussets. As a reminder of where all this is going, here is the CAD view of the engine beds again:
(https://i.postimg.cc/7h7Tjstx/Ohio-Engine-CAD-Beds.jpg)
You can see the gusset plates down both sides of each rail, with the arc cut into them.
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Whew! That's a lot of gussets! :o
Kim
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Just CNC the thing out of the solid and be done with it! :noidea:
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Just CNC the thing out of the solid and be done with it! :noidea:
Cost of 1 inch thick x 6 inch wide by 20 length of solid brass or stainless aside, getting into all those corners on inside and outside of each rail would be tough unless each rail is still made separately. Plus I don't have CNC! :Lol: also this way all the inside corners are square. And it keeps me busy in the shop, which I love!
:cheers:
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gusset (n.)
early 14c., from Old French gosset "armhole; piece of armor for the armpit" (13c.), apparently from gousse "shell of a nut," a word of unknown origin. Originally an armorer's term; of clothing from 1560s.
Make some extras and sell 'em to the dungeons and dragons crowd. Must be the removable plate for getting the deodorant in? Or are you just a nut for making that many shells? :LittleDevil:
Honestly though, looking great as always! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
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There is no "just" CNC anyway. Kinda like "It's just software," or "It's just a model....."
The devil's in the just! :lolb:
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Wow, we really are getting good at Going Off Exploring At The Canal Turn! :Jester: :atcomputer:
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I expect them to be rather small and that probably prevents you from 'Stacking a number of them' and do them in a single run .... :noidea:
I'm guessing that there are other posibilities, such as Boring Head, Hole-Saw and Endmill of right size.
And no - I do not consider doing them all in one go.
So are you going to have a small Jig that holds one in position on the Rotary Table - Set, Mill, Remove & Repeat ?
Per
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Must be the removable plate for getting the deodorant in?
Nope, it was the removable plate for keeping the swords, knives, and other sharp pokey thingies OUT, joints being the weak point in any plate armor.
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I expect them to be rather small and that probably prevents you from 'Stacking a number of them' and do them in a single run .... :noidea:
I'm guessing that there are other posibilities, such as Boring Head, Hole-Saw and Endmill of right size.
And no - I do not consider doing them all in one go.
So are you going to have a small Jig that holds one in position on the Rotary Table - Set, Mill, Remove & Repeat ?
Per
I'm planning on using a finger clamp, possibly the same one I made for making crawler track plates for the Lombard and Marion, with a recess to hold the end of the bar. Probably can set it up to do two stacked together, three or more gets more fiddly to seat all the way in.
The radius is around an inch, so that lets out a single plunge with an end mill. Plan is to clamp the finger clamp down to the tooling plate on the rotary table and crank once past the cutter.
Lots more stock prep to do first...
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Wow, we really are getting good at Going Off Exploring At The Canal Turn! :Jester: :atcomputer:
Apologies, and was just kidding.
Looking forward to the gusset cutting. I think the intricate framework will be one of the highlights of the model. :cheers:
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Wow, we really are getting good at Going Off Exploring At The Canal Turn! :Jester: :atcomputer:
Apologies, and was just kidding.
Looking forward to the gusset cutting. I think the intricate framework will be one of the highlights of the model. :cheers:
Not a problem, I do it just as much!
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Here's some coolant after doing all those holes ----> :DrinkPint:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Here's some coolant after doing all those holes ----> :DrinkPint:
Uuuurrrpp... Ah, much better!
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The flat bar stock was trimmed down to width to fit the slots in the engine bed rails using the holding jig on the mill:
(https://i.postimg.cc/3r9Hg1Rv/IMG-2999.jpg)
Then, after some debate with the shop elves on the best way to cut down and hold the gusset plates for shaping, we decided to first cut them to slightly over length and then use a finger clamp on the rotary table to mill in the arc on one side. The finished plates are only about 0.200" deep, so not a lot to hold onto. Best way with the tools available to cut all those strips was decided to gang them up in a vise on the lathe, and use a slitting saw to cut them off. The movement of the carriage made it easy to line up the edge of the strips with the side of the blade, then crank in the distance for one set and use the cross slide to feed it all into the blade. Clamp, align, advance, cut, repeat.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sgGdCRJY/IMG-3001.jpg)
Here are the two stacks of blanks for all the gusset plates. Long set on the right for the inboard side, shorter set on the left for the outboard side. Cut a few spares of each.
(https://i.postimg.cc/vHBwXngS/IMG-3005.jpg)
Here is how they fit into the slots on the bed rails.
(https://i.postimg.cc/bNBc5v1Y/IMG-3004.jpg)
Next step is to set up a finger clamp to fit these piece and set it up on the rotary table...
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If those look like dominoes to me, they look like dominoes to the elves. Better keep them somewhere safe or you'll need more than a few spares. :naughty:
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If those look like dominoes to me, they look like dominoes to the elves. Better keep them somewhere safe or you'll need more than a few spares. :naughty:
I was more worried that they would think them elf-sized currency and go buy beer with them! :Lol:
Can you imagine trying to set up dominoes that thin? :ShakeHead: And first you would need to paint the little dots on them...
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With all the dominoes, um, gusset blanks, cut out, next step was to make a new opening in the finger clamp block that I've been using for a number of projects. These blanks are narrower than others the clamp was used for, so also made a new 'finger'. Here is the opening in the end of the block for the gussets, deep enough to hold three at a time, with the finger swung over sideways for a better view. To get the blocks to slide all the way into the opening, I took the back corners in deeper since the end mill leaves a rounded vertical corner.
(https://i.postimg.cc/4dYsyh60/IMG-3006.jpg)
Here the finger is swung back to normal position
(https://i.postimg.cc/rm7crFgw/IMG-3007.jpg)
and with three blanks being held in place
(https://i.postimg.cc/WzrV6Lf6/IMG-3009.jpg)
When I get through all the shorter plates, I'll widen the opening to fit the longer plates. Next time I'll get it clamped onto the rotary table and start in on shaping the arc into the plates...
:cheers:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Don't be surprised if you find yourself thinking of a nice scallop dinner during all those gusset cuts! :Lol:
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Nice little fixture! And doing them 3 at a time like that you'll only have to repeat the operation 123 gazillion times, rather than 369 gazillion. That's a big quality of life improvement! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Kim
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I think it's about 150 needed altogether between all the sizes. :insane:
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Got started milling in the arcs in the sides of the gusset plates. Once the finger clamp block was adjusted to give the right arc, it went pretty smoothly.
(https://i.postimg.cc/L81q6DKr/IMG-3010.jpg)
Here are the first few test fit in the rails. I like the look, well worth the time to make them!
(https://i.postimg.cc/wTPypPPX/IMG-3012.jpg)
It took less than an hour to do the shorter ones. Next I'll widen the slot in the clamp to fit the longer rails and start that set. Assuming I can get the pile of 'gold' bricks away from Elfric, that is...
(https://i.postimg.cc/TPvKybTh/IMG-3014.jpg)
Been thinking about how to install them, current idea is to silver solder up all the rails/other blocks, then use a dab of loctite in the slots to hold these plates in position. I'd prefer to silver solder them, but keeping them all in position tight against the center web, on both sides of each rail, would be pretty tough given that the flux has a tendency to bubble behind small parts and make them move slightly. The soldered center/top/bottom webs give the majority of the strength, and even glued in like that the gussets will still keep the top/bottom rails from flexing to the sides.
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I'd prefer to silver solder them,
Why not soft solder them, after all the other silver soldering is done?
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you need to find Ti clips wholesale or bulk :ROFL: the arc on them looks great!!!
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The gussets look great in place, Chris! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Just my own guesses....I think the Loctite idea sounds good, too. I'd worry that soldering all those gussets, heating each locally 'til flow might ultimately warp the beams, and would probably be a bear to clean up. This kind of job would be best done in a furnace brazing operation. On the other hand, certainly admirable if you did want to solder, and pulled it off, which I have no doubt you could do with your skills. :cheers:
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Thanks guys! If it was just the one row of gussets down the outside I'd be more likely to solder them, but having a row down both sides of the ceter web makes it tougher, easier to soften the solder on the opposite side and have one move. The gussets are small but the rails go up to 1/8" thick, which would need a fair bit of heating even for soft solder.
They have to be done after final assembly of each square frame section so access to the inside of each rail gets harder. With loctite there is longer handling time and no risk of burnt fingers (after seeing the stories over on the boiler thread!)
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Oh, and the jig was modified to fit the longer gussets, got about a third of that set cut now...
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you need to find Ti clips wholesale or bulk :ROFL: the arc on them looks great!!!
They would help a lot, but it would take a Lot of them!
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Boy, you're making sort work of those gussets!
They have to be done after final assembly of each square frame section so access to the inside of each rail gets harder. With loctite there is longer handling time and no risk of burnt fingers (after seeing the stories over on the boiler thread!)
I don't know what you're talking about. We follow all OSHA rules in the boiler shop! O:-)
Kim
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Thanks guys! If it was just the one row of gussets down the outside I'd be more likely to solder them, but having a row down both sides of the ceter web makes it tougher, easier to soften the solder on the opposite side and have one move. The gussets are small but the rails go up to 1/8" thick, which would need a fair bit of heating even for soft solder.
You might consider using "tinning flux". Basically an acid flux with ground-up soft solder incorporated inside. Typically leaves just a trace of solder on the surface. Would not be strong, but it does not need to be.
Gene
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Thanks guys! If it was just the one row of gussets down the outside I'd be more likely to solder them, but having a row down both sides of the ceter web makes it tougher, easier to soften the solder on the opposite side and have one move. The gussets are small but the rails go up to 1/8" thick, which would need a fair bit of heating even for soft solder.
You might consider using "tinning flux". Basically an acid flux with ground-up soft solder incorporated inside. Typically leaves just a trace of solder on the surface. Would not be strong, but it does not need to be.
Gene
Hi Gene,
I did pick up some of that after seeing it mentioned a while back on the forum. It does work well, but in addition to the flux leaving a waxy residue, I'm worried about any thickness from it keeping the plate from fitting into the groove, the fits are pretty snug. I may give it a try before the loctite though. :cheers:
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Boy, you're making sort work of those gussets!
They have to be done after final assembly of each square frame section so access to the inside of each rail gets harder. With loctite there is longer handling time and no risk of burnt fingers (after seeing the stories over on the boiler thread!)
I don't know what you're talking about. We follow all OSHA rules in the boiler shop! O:-)
Kim
Old joke: OSHA is naming a new safety rule after you! :Lol:
For fun, go to Google, on the Images tab, and search for "OSHA Joke". Lots of great ones!
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Second set of the gusset plates are done, pile on the left are the longer ones for the inboard side of the engine.
(https://i.postimg.cc/XJzGYzq6/IMG-3015.jpg)
Lets see, whats next? Um, looks like the vertical connector plates that go at the ends of the sections, with all the bolt holes in them. They need to be milled out of a thicker stock to leave the mini-gussets along the top edge. I checked, and it looks like I will be able to get all the bolts in each plate, though running in the ones along the inside edge will be tough since not much finger or wrench room. I might make the ones on the inside row next to the inside edge of the vertical web into pre-installed dummy ones and just use the other rows - will try it out and see. Here is the CAD drawing again as a reminder - I'm talking about the sqare plates with 14 holes in each at the ends of the frame rails.
(https://i.postimg.cc/s2VCrsWN/Frame-Sections.jpg)
Other parts still to be made before soldering: the round pads for the outboard columns, the long skinny pads for the inboard engine frames, the bearing blocks, and the pump mounting plates at the left end. LOTS of details in these frames!
:cheers:
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An insanely complex work but the result will reward you.
then the big soldering party is coming soon.
Michael :cheers:
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That's interesting - there are two different kinds of endplates - the ones with 14 holes along the far side (6 of them) and the ones with 16 holes along the near side (6 of those). And the 16 hole ones are taller and have some little triangle gussets behind them.
Still a lot of little fiddly work to do on these bases.
Kim
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That's interesting - there are two different kinds of endplates - the ones with 14 holes along the far side (6 of them) and the ones with 16 holes along the near side (6 of those). And the 16 hole ones are taller and have some little triangle gussets behind them.
Still a lot of little fiddly work to do on these bases.
Kim
Correct, mostly, there are two hole patterns, though the plates are all the same height. The frames on the outboard side are not as tall, so the end plates extend above them with the extra angle gussets for strength.
Lots more to make before soldering, with luck I'll get some warm weather when I'm ready to go outside and solder.
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An insanely complex work but the result will reward you.
then the big soldering party is coming soon.
Michael :cheers:
Thanks Michael, lots of details that will really make the model look good.
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Starting in on the end plates that will bolt the bed sections together. Took a 1" square bar and sliced off 12 pieces on the bandsaw, then trued them up to same thickness on the lathe.
(https://i.postimg.cc/kgxBrybw/IMG-3022.jpg)
To hold them for silver soldering, each will have a pair of 1-72 screws through the plate and into the vertical web on the engine bed rails.
(https://i.postimg.cc/pdRyPnQv/IMG-3023.jpg)
Next will drill/tap the holes in the ends of the rails, and lay things out to shape the plates.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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All the holes in the blocks are drilled (two different spacings, one for taller inboard rails, one for shorter outboard rails). Now have started drilling the matching holes in the ends of the vertical webs:
(https://i.postimg.cc/VsrZc7Yj/IMG-3024.jpg)
First one test fit, the sketched on arcs show where the block gets milled back to form a curved gusset on the sides, the middle will be milled back so the entire block slips farther onto the rails.
(https://i.postimg.cc/dQbHQ81g/IMG-3025.jpg)
Eleven more to fit onto the rails, then can start in on shaping the blocks. The ones on the outboard rails also will have gusset plates milled in to the upper edges...
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All the holes in the ends of the frame rails have been drilled/tapped 1-72, here the parts are with the blocks screwed on to mark out the next steps:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Y9q0TXTg/IMG-3033.jpg)
Closer view showing the shape sketched on the blocks - the ones closest to the camera are the outboard rails, which are lower so the blocks stick up above - there will be three little gussets there. All of them get horizontal gussets to blend the edges into the top/bottom rails.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Bbj6njSn/IMG-3034.jpg)
This shot shows what I was talking about before about the limited space on the inside of the rails to get the rows of bolts in! The rails between the end and middle frame sections are very short.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Tw71xVXs/IMG-3035.jpg)
Tomorrow I'll start shaping the blocks down to fit over the ends of the rails...
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
You might need the Horrible Fright shrinker / stretcher tool to get the shop elves down to a size where they can get those tight bolts in! :Lol:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
You might need the Horrible Fright shrinker / stretcher tool to get the shop elves down to a size where they can get those tight bolts in! :Lol:
:Lol: Superglue the bolt to his hand, twist him by the ankles to thread it in...
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Beautiful work Chris!! Coming along very nicely!
Very glad I turned you on to this one...
Dave
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:Lol: Superglue the bolt to his hand, twist him by the ankles to thread it in...
OK, but how do you get the bolt released from the hand when it's tight? Or does it rip loose when the proper torque is reached? The bolt - not the hand. I would think that trying to heat the bolt with a torch could get... shall we say messy?
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:Lol: Superglue the bolt to his hand, twist him by the ankles to thread it in...
OK, but how do you get the bolt released from the hand when it's tight? Or does it rip loose when the proper torque is reached? The bolt - not the hand. I would think that trying to heat the bolt with a torch could get... shall we say messy?
Didn't say it was a perfect plan... :LittleDevil:
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Started in shaping the bolting plates this morning. The ones on the inboard side are simpler, with just the horizontal gussets in them, so I am starting with that set. After scribing in the edges of the frames where they meet the plates, the first was set up in the mill. First went across the plate to take it to depth from side to side in the area between the top and bottom rails.
(https://i.postimg.cc/NfQmM329/IMG-3036.jpg)
Then turned the block 90 degrees and milled out the center area at top and bottom so that the top/bottom rails would fit between the areas left at the corners
(https://i.postimg.cc/fRr98k2m/IMG-3038.jpg)
Here is the first one in place on the end of the frame. There is more trimming to do to get the top and bottom edges flush with the frame rails, and to form the curved gussets, but that will be done after all the blocks are taken to this stage.
(https://i.postimg.cc/HkxM0b2T/IMG-3039.jpg)
Here is that plate/frame set beside to the next one, which has not been cut yet, to show the differences. The one on the right has moved in along the frame rail to its final position, the one on the left is still sticking out.
(https://i.postimg.cc/WbSrJ509/IMG-3041.jpg)
So, one down, five more to go on the inboard side. Well, four more, I've done one more since taking these pictures!
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Thanks Jeff!
One more block done...
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Hi Chris, I admire your perseverance in making all these parts.
You really didn't choose an easy role model.
I spotted a few pictures of similar large machines. One or the other machine base would be even more extensive in production.
Michael
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Hi Michael,
Very interesting to see those other engines, they look to be similar in size and era to the Ohio one. Interesting to see how each one has slightly different designs in the details.
:cheers:
I did a quick parts count on these engine frames, by my count there will be just over 300 pieces in the engine beds altogether. Glad I didn't count before starting!
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300? That's nothing. Just be glad its not a tank engine. You'd be making thousands of little pieces for the tracks! :Lol:
You're astounding, Chris! You really do make short work of all these big models!
Kim
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300? That's nothing. Just be glad its not a tank engine. You'd be making thousands of little pieces for the tracks! :Lol:
You're astounding, Chris! You really do make short work of all these big models!
Kim
Been there, done that! The Marion and Lombard engines both used many dozens of track plates and pivots... Two tracks for the Lombard, four for the Marion. Trying to stay away from tracked vehicles for a little while. At least another year! :paranoia: :ROFL:
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Chris, the book is from 1910. I think we had talked about it before and you wanted to buy it too. If that's still possible.
There is a lot of detail in drawings and pictures in the book.
Michael
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Hi Michael,
I had looked around for a copy of that book, and actually found it on Google Books and downloaded a PDF copy from there!
Chris
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With the inboard end plates shaped to fit the frame rails, time to start on the outboard ones. So far I have the first cut done on all six, opening up the center to fit inside the top/bottom rails. Next will mill the openings vertically, to fit over the sides of the top/bottom rails. These are a little trickier than the inboard plates, since at the top are a row of gussets to brace the upper end against the top rails. So, I'll take out all of the bottom opening and part of the top one, then come back and finish the top ends with a smaller end mill to get into the corners and between the gussets.
(https://i.postimg.cc/8PJ9kks4/IMG-3042.jpg)
On the block at the bottom/right of the row, I've sketched in lines to show where the gussets will be, and dots to show about where the bolt holes will be. On the upper end of that plate are little lines to show where the middle gets opened up for the bottom rail. More detail pics as the next operation happens...
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Went through all the outboard side end plates, and opened up the center sections for the top/bottom rails to fit into:
(https://i.postimg.cc/nhyCSGPx/IMG-3043.jpg)
Then started in cutting the gusset plates in the top ends. Started by taking out the bulk of the material with a 1/8" end mill, leaving the final trimming to last. Again, did this on all six plates.
(https://i.postimg.cc/3w2Ws0sv/IMG-3044.jpg)
Then switched to a smaller end mill, smallest that would have the reach to get down through the gussets, and started final trimming. The gussets were measured out and notes made for width/spacing, and did one cut on all plates before moving on to the next location - that way I could do all the measuring/setting position on the first one, and zip through the rest more quickly.
(https://i.postimg.cc/3R7WYJhb/IMG-3045.jpg)
This spacing does leave just enough room to get a socket wrench in to run in 2-56 screws to join the engine bed sections together. Here the first plate has been test fit to the frame - since the final cuts had to be done with the side of the small end mill, I needed to file off the upper corners of the rail to a quarter-round, and realized that some of the temporary screws are a little close to the end so they interfere with the gussets - the screw heads will have to be filed back in those places.
(https://i.postimg.cc/8zJ7b0ww/IMG-3047.jpg)
So, the other five of the plates need to be fit as well, and the gussets need to be trimmed back. The top ones are a simple triangle, the side ones get a concave quarter-round to blend into the rails. The angled ones on top I may do on the belt sander, don't want to risk them getting bent with an end mill since they are only 0.065" thick.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Wow! Looking very nice there, Chris! Love the detail! :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
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Chris,
Your work is magnificent! Your work ethic is beyond reproach!
I don't mind saying...that silver solder job scares me!
"In Chris we trust!"
Dave
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Thanks very much guys! Dave, maybe I'll send it to Kim for soldering, he's been getting a lot of practice lately on that boiler! :Jester:
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Sure! Send it right on over! I'll queue it up behind the next boiler burnt offering :lolb:
Kim
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This morning I got the rest of the plates fit to the engine bed rails, and countersunk the screw heads that will hold them for soldering. Then trimmed off the tops of the upper outboard gussets. I was going to use the belt sander, but that was too awkward so I used the mill, took them down in a few passes to minimize the forces on the thin center ones.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Vv3kZjYp/IMG-3048.jpg)
Then have started rounding off the sides where they blend back into the rails
(https://i.postimg.cc/fWFybhxC/IMG-3049.jpg)
Bunch more of those to do...
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I see! Sometimes it takes me awhile to visually comprehend how things will be shaped while being milled, and the blocks were that type of thing. Now I get it! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :cheers:
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Sweet! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
So are you just playing etch-a-sketch for those curves? Or are you using your rotary table?
Kim
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I see! Sometimes it takes me awhile to visually comprehend how things will be shaped while being milled, and the blocks were that type of thing. Now I get it! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :cheers:
Yeah, these are tough to describe in words, pictures really help! A number of times I had to go back to both the drawings and the 3D CAD model to look at things.
:cheers:
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Sweet! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
So are you just playing etch-a-sketch for those curves? Or are you using your rotary table?
Kim
Yup - the curves are not all the same radius since the ones with the cross rails close in are a little different, and pieces with long overhangs sometimes want to catch on the larger diameter end mills, so I like to just use a small diameter one and freehand the curves. If need be, a little smoothing with a rounded file too.
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Got the rest of the arcs cut in the plates, and also took some cuts on top/bottom to get them flush with the top/bottom rails. Really starting to look like an engine bed now!
(https://i.postimg.cc/QxQqgSN2/IMG-3050.jpg)
Put a straightedge along the inner recesses where the bearings will go, things are looking nice and straight too. :cartwheel: Still to go on the end plates is to drill/tap all the holes to join one section to the next. Here are a couple closer views of the end plates - the lights reflecting off the fresh cut edges makes it tough to get good shots:
(https://i.postimg.cc/dVJj5dLL/IMG-3051.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/nhTYgzDT/IMG-3052.jpg)
After getting the holes in the end plates, there are still a number of things to make: the cradles where the bearings go (the bearing blocks have seperate supports under the bearings themselves that sit in the cradles, probably so they could shim to adjust the crankshaft to run true all down the length). Also there are pairs of diagonal rods that extend from the outboard bed rails up to the cylinders, so I need to add the angled tubes that the rods run through. Lets see, also the support shelves for the pump at the aft end. And the final gussets below the bearing blocks - those are straight, no arc to them so simple to do. I think after that it will be ready for soldering. After the soldering there are pad blocks that stick up above the engine bed side rails to support the vertical frames and posts that go up to the cylinders.
Quite happy with how its coming along, thanks for following along! :cheers:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
The plate connections look excellent Chris! :cheers:
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Chris, the link plates look really nice.
In general, there are a large number of holes where screws have to be drilled. Do the workshop elves get an impact wrench or do they have to screw everything by hand.
Michael :cheers:
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Thanks Jeff! They look even better with bolts in. Laid out and drilled the holes in the outboard plates this afternoon:
(https://i.postimg.cc/0jYP2hG5/IMG-3053.jpg)
Drilled these with tap size with each pair of plates sandwiched together, then went back and drilled out one side with the clearance drill. So far have one plate tapped, had to run in some screws to test out that the socket would clear everything (it does) and then set the pair on the ends of the rails to see how it looks:
(https://i.postimg.cc/RCKMRnrr/IMG-3054.jpg)
So far so good! Now to tap the other sets on that side, then start drilling the holes on the other side of the bed. Tomorrow! Last night and today saw a lot of freezing rain, perfect days to stay in where its warm and play in the shop. Hope the ice on the trees evaporates/melts off before the next windy day. Glad I don't have to commute in this stuff, the roads are pretty slick, we got about 1/8 to 3/16" of ice on everything.
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Chris, the link plates look really nice.
In general, there are a large number of holes where screws have to be drilled. Do the workshop elves get an impact wrench or do they have to screw everything by hand.
Michael :cheers:
After the incident with shop elves being bolted to the walls, ceiling, floor, I took the impact wrench away from them! :facepalm2:
Just running the tap through that many holes gets tiring on the fingers, so I am doing them in batches with rest time between. I'm using a thread forming tap, so no chips to have to clear and the tap is stronger, so they go pretty quick. Instead of a larger tap wrench or the tapping stand, doing these just with the little hex shaped holder that goes in the tap stand, held in the fingers. The forming taps work great on the brass.
The screws were run into this one pair of plates just as a test, they need to come out again to separate the plates to reinstall them for soldering, will have to take care not to let solder run into the holes, and may need to chase the threads again after all the soldering is done.
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Thanks very much guys! Dave, maybe I'll send it to Kim for soldering, he's been getting a lot of practice lately on that boiler! :Jester:
Amazing progress. I don't know anyone who builds great models faster and on the smallest of machines!
Maybe you're thinking the same but someone mentioned silver solder. imo those are a great candidate for soft solder. It'll be strong enough, won't warp anything, doesn't anneal the brass and is easier/lower temperature
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Thanks very much guys! Dave, maybe I'll send it to Kim for soldering, he's been getting a lot of practice lately on that boiler! :Jester:
Amazing progress. I don't know anyone who builds great models faster and on the smallest of machines!
Maybe you're thinking the same but someone mentioned silver solder. imo those are a great candidate for soft solder. It'll be strong enough, won't warp anything, doesn't anneal the brass and is easier/lower temperature
Thanks Mcgyver, very kind!
This got discussed a while back in the build. Given the size of the pistons in this engine, two of them over 3" diameter, one 2.6", one 1.75", with nearly a 3" stroke, there is a lot of potential torque involved on the framework. The joints of the frame section corners are fairly thin, and any failed joints would be a real mess. I have had a lot of practice at silver solder, and am very comfortable with it. Also, if it turns out that the soft solder is not adequate anywhere, the residue from it would make resoldering that area with hard solder impractical if not impossible. So, I've been planning all along to hard solder (silver solder) the frame together, with the likely exception of the gussets since they will be very difficult to keep in position during soldering, hard or soft, since there are those thin gusset plates on both sides of every vertical web - heating one side could remelt and dislodge the other side, and having so many of them (around 150) it could be a pain in the swarf to keep chasing moved ones.
Chris
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They sure do look the business with all those screws in place! :popcorn: :popcorn:
I didn't realize that one side was tapped. I had assumed (apparently incorrectly) that it was going to be a nut & bolt that held the base sections together. Don't know why I'm surprised, but I am.
Kim
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They sure do look the business with all those screws in place! :popcorn: :popcorn:
I didn't realize that one side was tapped. I had assumed (apparently incorrectly) that it was going to be a nut & bolt that held the base sections together. Don't know why I'm surprised, but I am.
Kim
I was thinking of nuts/bolts, and may still do that on the ones where I can get at on the outside and where they gaps between the cross rails are larger, but on the insides of the close-quarters ones, just getting the bolts in will be difficult. Where I can get access, I will likely use the threaded holes to draw up the parts, and add a nut on the end for appearances sake. By tapping all of them I have the option either way! The original would have been nuts/bolts throughout.
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Amazing amount of work has already gone into this project, and you're just warming up on the 'Foundation' ::)
Great to confirm that the bed is Level so far :ThumbsUp: - as there is a slim change of this to shift a bit during solder .... Did you make room for a (very) tiny Face-Off on the gussets just in case ?
Me thinks that we neeed another Huge Load off :popcorn: for Us in the Peanut Gallery :cheers: :cheers:
Per
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Amazing amount of work has already gone into this project, and you're just warming up on the 'Foundation' ::)
Great to confirm that the bed is Level so far :ThumbsUp: - as there is a slim change of this to shift a bit during solder .... Did you make room for a (very) tiny Face-Off on the gussets just in case ?
Me thinks that we neeed another Huge Load off :popcorn: for Us in the Peanut Gallery :cheers: :cheers:
Per
I did drill the clearnace holes for the bolts as a loose fit in case there is any need to adjust after assembly. I've got some steel plate with openings cut in it that I used when soldering up the crosshead guides on the Ward pumping engine, am planning on laying the rails on that when soldering to support things. The gussets could always be filed at one end if need be, I am hoping that the slots/screws used on the rails will hold things in place. And lob some of that popcorn this way! (oh - wait, they birds will get it in midair, rats!) :Lol:
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(oh - wait, they birds will get it in midair, rats!) :Lol:
Why is it that I can see the Elf R&D department working on their version of the Mk-I JDAM Popcorn Cluster bomb in the near future? They might even come up with some catchy slogan like "We deliver to your doorstep, whether you want it or not."
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(oh - wait, they birds will get it in midair, rats!) :Lol:
Why is it that I can see the Elf R&D department working on their version of the Mk-I JDAM Popcorn Cluster bomb in the near future? They might even come up with some catchy slogan like "We deliver to your doorstep, whether you want it or not."
That explains all the commotion in the basement, and the new doorway to the neighbors house! :facepalm:
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Hi Chris , still following and soldering on !! I think/ have heard that when silver soldering the ss when forming the amalgam at the joint raises the temperature of the re-melting point ??!! so when you re heat for further soldering the original positions of the items remain in place ?? Also there are quite a few silver solders available with different melting temperatures ?/ Just some thoughts about this , but I am no expert or scientific expert on this subject ... looking great and when I have lots of taping to do I have made a special long brace to help with this procedure !!
Cheers
Willy
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Hi Chris , still following and soldering on !! I think/ have heard that when silver soldering the ss when forming the amalgam at the joint raises the temperature of the re-melting point ??!! so when you re heat for further soldering the original positions of the items remain in place ?? Also there are quite a few silver solders available with different melting temperatures ?/ Just some thoughts about this , but I am no expert or scientific expert on this subject ... looking great and when I have lots of taping to do I have made a special long brace to help with this procedure !!
Cheers
Willy
Hi Willy,
I'm no metalurgist either, but I have noticed that it takes slightly higher temps to remelt existing joints, but not a whole lot. Not fluxing the existing joints helps too - the flux does make it melt easier, I've had bits of solder just outside the fluxed area that just sat there, did not get soft while the fluxed solder right next to it did. There are 4 main grades, called (from lowest melting point to highest) Extra Easy, Easy, Medium, Hard, each with a different percentage silver. There are also versions with brass or copper in them so they blend in with the metal being soldered better, those are made for the jewelry market, and have a slightly higher melting point. In cases where I know I am going to be doing more soldering next to an existing joint, I have used Hard for the first joint and Easy for the second, with good results. Better to do if heating just the area being soldered, and not packing firebricks around everything and heating the entire part up to temperature, no need for that, and leaving things uninsulated lets the rest of the part radiate the heat and stay below the solder melting temperature. Lots of art, lots of technique, and lots of knowledge to be an expert in it (which I am not, but more an experienced amateur).
I can see this question exploding into a much larger discussion, better started on its own thread rather than clogging up this build. From what I've seen in the past, any ten people with experience silver soldering will have 11 different opinions on best way to do things!!
Chris
:cheers:
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I've gotten the inboard side end plates drilled/tapped like the outboard side was, so time to move on to the angled tubes that will take the support rods that angle from the outboard side of the engine bed up to the inboard side of the cylinders. There are two of them per cylinder, all the same angle and same spacing around each cylinder. Drilling an angled hole through an I-beam shape with a normal twist drill is not a good idea without a drill guide, so instead I am using an end mill the size needed (comes in handy sometimes that I pick up extra end mills when I see them on sale in the in-between sizes). The supports are at a 61 degree angle, so I dug out the tilt table and vise, got the angle set, and marked out the locations of the holes. Then, a very careful slow plunge cut through the rails with a nice sharp end mill:
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZR3ZHjYd/IMG-3055.jpg)
The two holes in the first frame section:
(https://i.postimg.cc/7hn4862P/IMG-3056.jpg)
As you can see, the hole goes through the top rail as well as the center web. The tube bracket will extend above the rail and down below where it exits the web, with a nut top and bottom to lock the rail in position. Not having made the tubes yet, I grabbed this off the bench to show where the tubes/rod will go:
(https://i.postimg.cc/mks45Mh6/IMG-3057.jpg)
I'll turn the tubes from some solid rod. To keep them in place during soldering I will probably put a very small shoulder to rest on the rail, wont take much.
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I think we need a video of you silver soldering that lot together.
I'm worried about silver soldering my first ever simple crank for the Redwing and its pales into insignificance compared to the task you are facing. :NotWorthy: :NotWorthy:
You are amazing
Colin
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I think we need a video of you silver soldering that lot together.
I'm worried about silver soldering my first ever simple crank for the Redwing and its pales into insignificance compared to the task you are facing. :NotWorthy: :NotWorthy:
You are amazing
Colin
Thanks Colin - when first starting my first silver soldering projects, It took several tries just to get the parts to stick together! A decade of practise on many projects has helped a lot. Practise Makes Prefect. I mean Praktize Makes Perfect... I'll keep practicing! :Lol:
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Even more cool detail. :popcorn:
Kim
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Thanks Kim!
Got the rest of the angled holes drilled, all went well which is a relief! :DrinkPint:
Then started turning the tubes to fit in them. To keep them in place, near the upper end the OD goes up a couple thou.
(https://i.postimg.cc/j2w30qkw/IMG-3058.jpg)
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The rest of the angle sockets are turned:
(https://i.postimg.cc/rFy3wc0H/IMG-3059.jpg)
I think the next pieces will be the pump brackets for the aft end, then will start on the bearing block bases.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
I was going to ask if the angle sockets have been evaluated for ballistic opcorn-pay delivery but then I remembered the shop elves read everything! :Lol: (good thing I remembered the pig latin word for :popcorn:)
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You're going to have the engine half done before you get to silver soldering, aren't you?! :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
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You're going to have the engine half done before you get to silver soldering, aren't you?! :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
Kinda seems like it! The vertical frames are pretty complex shapes too, but the cylinder assemblies are probably more challenging than any I've done so far. Its probably good that the engine beds are taking a while to make up parts for, its way too cold to go outside to solder!
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
I was going to ask if the angle sockets have been evaluated for ballistic opcorn-pay delivery but then I remembered the shop elves read everything! :Lol: (good thing I remembered the pig latin word for :popcorn: )
Nope, no good for that. Thats my story and I'm sticking to it, regardless of those broken windows next door... :LittleDevil:
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Fabulous! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :cheers:
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Thanks Steve!
On to the bearing block bases today. They are a shallow U shape, and it worked out that the 1"x5/8" stock I have on hand that is the right thickness to make them out of is wide enough to get two out of each bar as long as I nest the shapes. So, went into the CAD model and copied two of the shapes, moved them around to be 1" apart on the outer edges and shifted to nest evenly, and printed out sets of them at actual size. I know from my printer engineering days that actual size printed outlines are not terribly accurate or stable, so these are just being used as rough cutting guides, final shaping will be from measurements!
The shop elves helped out by cutting out the patterns and sticking them to the bar stock with a glue stick:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Hn7wp6D3/IMG-3060.jpg)
Then we took the blocks to the mill to chain drill the gap down the center of the two parts. The angled lines at either end are where a saw cut will separate the two. The drill is .147" diameter, chosen to make offsetting the holes easily with three turns of the handwheel for .150 centers.
(https://i.postimg.cc/65nPc02d/IMG-3061.jpg)
Came back with a 1/8" end mill to connect the dots.
(https://i.postimg.cc/23R43nCY/IMG-3062.jpg)
The end mill was not long enough to get all the way through, so the block was flipped over to finish off the slots
(https://i.postimg.cc/VsSpr1zZ/IMG-3063.jpg)
Over to the vise to make a couple saw cuts to separate the two sides, and one pair is done. Three to go. Here they are set on the engine bed to show where they will go after a lot more shaping:
(https://i.postimg.cc/KcdVtVzG/IMG-3065.jpg)
Good time to break for lunch!
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I like that just under 3 turn chain drill sizing method! Must remember...... :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :cheers:
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Hello Chris,
You seem to be getting through a king's ransom worth of brass on this engine. But it's worth the outlay, cos the engine bed looks magnificent.
Cool 8) 8) 8) 8)
Mike
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I like that just under 3 turn chain drill sizing method! Must remember...... :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :cheers:
Same idea works on larger sizes, pick a drill just under .2 or .25 for 4 or 5 turns, etc. Leaves a thin wall that the small end mill breaks through very easy.
:cheers:
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Hello Chris,
You seem to be getting through a king's ransom worth of brass on this engine. But it's worth the outlay, cos the engine bed looks magnificent.
Cool 8) 8) 8) 8)
Mike
A lot depends on where/when/what size for the brass. The stainless steel and bronze is not cheap these days either! I've found that shopping around can save a LOT. So does buying stock sizes in longer lengths - there are a number of places that will sell you 2" of a bar if thats all you need, but for the convenience you are paying extra, sometimes its as much for that as for a foot of bar. For larger sizes, I've saved a lot buying from commercial suppliers that sell 'drops' (offcuts of the 20 or 30' bars they carry) at a real bargain. For the cylinder blocks on this engine, I found a 15" long bar of 4" diameter brass for about 80% off the normal price. Enough to do these cylinders with 6" left over for other projects. Also gotten great deals at Speedy Metals and Online Metal Supply (not to be confused with Online Metals), both of which have less choice sometimes but great deals on offcuts and sales. When I find a great deal on a common size, I'll buy extra and stock up the shelves, there are a half dozen sizes that most stuff gets made out of. Also, a lot depends on if the seller is basing their price on what they paid for it when commodity prices were lower, not all change prices on the fly when the open market price changes.
And, as you say, its worth it in the end, I'm investing a lot of time in the hobby, and its all fun! :cheers:
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Got the other three blocks rough cut out after lunch, and they are in Quality Control with the elves for now...
(https://i.postimg.cc/rs6ByYRw/IMG-3066.jpg)
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You've got 8 nice elf-sized ski mobiles there, Chris!
Kim
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the evles are going to need new swarf shovels.. :stickpoke:
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The shaping has started on the bearing block supports, all have been taken to height, and first two to length:
(https://i.postimg.cc/vmQgjdrL/IMG-3067.jpg)
Lots of shaping to go, rest need to be taken to overall length, they need to be slotted on the bottom to fit down onto the vertcial webs, then can start in on shaping the top profiles.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Hey Jeff, the shop elves say Hi! They are on the way up to your house to get another load of popcorn...
(https://i.postimg.cc/gj7dV1dW/IMG-1851.jpg)
Got the rest of the blocks taken to length, and ran the slot down the bottom face to get them to sit down over the vertical webs, which holds them in place nicely - one small screw is all they will need to hold them for soldering.
(https://i.postimg.cc/g2ZcDcnB/IMG-3068.jpg)
Next step is to start shaping the opening on the top of the blocks for the bearing blocks.
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I'll lower the chute out of the silo when I hear their Gator! (did they install that heavy spring kit yet?) :o
I could always send the screamin jimmy dump truck down with another 12 tons, if you're getting short of :popcorn:, if I can start it. (only got 4 cans of ether at the moment) :Lol: :cheers:
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The shaping has started on the bearing block supports, all have been taken to height, and first two to length.......
Those frames are now starting to look massive, like the real thing. That framework is going to be very impressive when complete.
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More nibbling away at the bearing block supports. Each cut has been set up for the first block, then swap in the rest one by one to keep them all the same, indexing from the outboard end of each one for all cuts. The exception is the angled cuts to clean up the inside corners. These last cuts are not critical on dimension, since there will be a gap there to the bottom of the bearing block itself. They used hollow bottom supports and caps for the shaft bearings, so they could be water cooled. So, there is an extra piece that will bolt into this cradle shape that actually holds the bottom half of the bearing.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Pf7pWQht/IMG-3070.jpg)
Here is first one with all the inside cuts made. Another cut on the rest to bring them up to this stage, then it will be time to start shaping the outside top areas, with recesses for the ends of the caps, and curves where they blend into the bed rails. Still a lot to do on these...
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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It's all these little details that make your models so interesting, Chris! :popcorn:
Kim
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Thanks guys, Kim, that's one of the main reasons I love it when I can find original drawings for full size engines, they haven't been simplified down for kits but still have all the little details. Then I can make my own choices for what to simplify or leave in, based on the scale I am building to.
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More and more nibbling away at the bearing block supports...
(https://i.postimg.cc/QNYMv28Q/IMG-3075.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/c4KJWFCV/IMG-3076.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/nrWc7DRR/IMG-3077.jpg)
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More and more nibbling away at the bearing block supports...
Hi Chris
Are you 'brassed off' with all that nibbling away yet, :stir: :stir:
Mike
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More and more nibbling away at the bearing block supports...
Hi Chris
Are you 'brassed off' with all that nibbling away yet, :stir: :stir:
Mike
May have to put the mill on a diet plan, all that nibbling... :Lol:
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Just FYI Chris, diet grade cutters made of melba toast or celery don't cut brass or steel well at all.....don't ask me how I know..... :Lol:
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More nibbling on the bearing block supports. I'm getting full...
(https://i.postimg.cc/pd0bcnzP/IMG-3079.jpg)
They look done, don't they? Nope. Need to cut the slots in the bottom edges for the middle three gusset plates, drill the eight holes for the studs that hold the caps down and also the bearing cradles, and one screw each to hold the blocks for soldering. Then done? Nope, they need a trim pass to get them to final width to match the top rails. Then, I think, they'll be done! :cheers:
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Those of you who have been here a while will recall my Ransome Tree Feller (steam powered tree felling saw) project a little while back. I had gotten the cylinder/valve/piston assembly made, but had a lot of problems getting it to run properly. It was based on plans in one of the model magazines that showed the build but never had an installment of it finished and running, which maybe should have been a clue! The full sized ones obviously work, and there have been one or two model sized ones made, but the fine balance of the valve eluded me, so the project went on the shelf behind the back burner hoping for a redesign of some sort.
Recently I've had some thoughts on it, and decided to rework the design to use the same valve system used in the Weir boiler feed pump that I had built. That style pump, used frequently on locomotives and elsewhere, is quite robust and fairly simple to do, using a normal slide valve actuated by a shuttle valve that is tripped from one end to the other. So, I've been playing in Fusion to combine the CAD models of the two, and came up with this:
(https://i.postimg.cc/R0tpK6dP/Tree-Feller.jpg)
The teal and yellow blocks to the right of the cylinder in that picture are the valves from the feed pump, actuated by a set of arms (pink) and a pin on top of the sliding block holding the blade. Looks like it should work out well, and easier to tune at small scale than the twisted control rod of the Ransome design. The rest of the machine is the same as before.
So, that should bring the tree feller saw back to the front of the line - but I am not going to interrupt the Ohio engine build! This saw will be after that is done....
:cheers:
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Hi Chris
I'm pleased you are back on the Ransom Tree Feller with some better valve gear ideas. Otherwise you would have been 'Stumped' :Lol:
Cheers
Mike
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Chris:
You might want to reconsider the scheduling of the tree feller. It might come in handy when you and the elves build the bridge crane you're going to want to use when you maneuver the bits and pieces of the Ohio's engine around.
Have you decided on the crane's tonnage capacity yet? Bigger is always better. Also, have you used Fusion 360 to estimate the engine's weight yet?
The Ohio's engine is looking pretty impressive already, and it's just the baseplate.
Don
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Chris:
You might want to reconsider the scheduling of the tree feller. It might come in handy when you and the elves build the bridge crane you're going to want to use when you maneuver the bits and pieces of the Ohio's engine around.
Have you decided on the crane's tonnage capacity yet? Bigger is always better. Also, have you used Fusion 360 to estimate the engine's weight yet?
The Ohio's engine is looking pretty impressive already, and it's just the baseplate.
Don
According to Fusion, the finished model will be somewhere between 50 and 55 pounds, depending on the materials used. Thats not too bad, the Marion and Ward models were each over 100 pounds, so I'm going in the right direction! A cieling mounted track crane would be a lot of fun... hmmm...
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Chris was the tree feller saw mounted on some kind of vehicle? I mean that ain't no chainsaw..... and there must have been a boiler...... :headscratch:
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Chris was the tree feller saw mounted on some kind of vehicle? I mean that ain't no chainsaw..... and there must have been a boiler...... :headscratch:
They used a small boiler on skids, looked a lot like a donkey engine setup, with a flexible hose over to the saw. The saw itself sits on the ground on that long frame, with the curved section out at the blade end up against the base of the tree, and a chain wrapped around the tree to hold it. The wheel at the other end turns to swing the saw side to side to go through the tree, with wedges in the kerf as it gets through far enough. I have scans of some of the old Ransome catalogs, and they also made a crosscut base for the same saw - the saw turned 90 degrees so the blade is vertical, and then it could saw logs to length. There are some pictures of the two setups over on the Ransome build thread.
https://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,10935.250.html
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Very interesting Chris. I found your thread and the 3D printed model looks great! Another fun model too, like the steam hammer, maybe this time sawing pretzel sticks! I'd love to see it in the brass! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn:
ps. as a former tree climber who still cuts 4 cords of wood a winter at 74, the real full size version seems to me one of those imaginary engineering patent labor savings devices that is totally impractical for doing the job. The pic shows it cutting at the very base of a tree with no notch. Besides the fact that it's as likely to barber chair the guy turning the handle, and/or the boiler, he has little directional control at all during the fell. And if he's kneeling there cranking a handle, it's kind of hard to get up and sprint, when the old tree starts heading in the wrong direction because you hit a rot pocket.
Even if the operator is lucky not to get killed first time out, a stump base invariably has rocks and grit in it, so that old steel handsaw style blade cutting just above the ground will need several re-sharpenings to get all the way through a single stump of that pictured bulk. This is why we always cut higher up first, then buck, and leave stumping 'til last in the day, if absolutely necessary for a clean shaven look.
BUT......I still think it's cool! Nineteenth century imagination, and the appeal of Rube Goldberg in a working model. A definite conversation piece! :cheers:
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Oh, thanks for adding the link to your build -- I'd only found the 3 page version before:
https://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,10801
Reading now....... :popcorn: :popcorn:
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According to the catalogs they made the tree fellers for quite a few years, I've seen videos of surviving ones running at shows.
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I recall seeing two operating saws very much like the Ransomes one in videos of past shows at "roots of motive power" museum in Willits California (I was looking for Best steam tractor footage - they had two Bests and maybe still do). I have seen plenty of smaller gasoline powered saws of essentially the same design working on farms and in steam power shows here in Ontario. I think the makers must have made and sold a bunch of steam and other saws to this design - definitely not just pics in a catalogue. :cheers:
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I would think they would be useful in the bucking (vertical) mode. No danger of a tree barber chairing, and the grit of the low cut would be avoided.
I'd place my money on a two man saw of the time beating the machine in a quarter the time through a tree when felling, assuming it didn't hit a rock.
For the other saws mentioned I bet they cut higher off the ground, and were lighter and more transportable than a steam powered skid drawn saw chained to a tree.
Really enjoyed the build thread btw. :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
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There were a lot of saw inventions leading up to the modern chainsaw. My favorite scary one looks like a chainsaw with a large circular saw at the end of the bar. They have one up at the logging museum in Maine. Looks like something from a horror movie.
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I've spent too many days in the late 60's with a gas powered 10" blade circular saw brush cutter strapped to my back working the woods. Kind of like a weed whacker on steroids. Real fun when you hit yellow jacket nest. Hard to run with 5 feet of saw hitched to you and trees snagging! They've got some interesting kickback qualities, too.
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Went through my folders of pics from the logging museum, couldn't find a picture of that circular-saw/chainsaw monster, guess I'll just have to go back this summer and take a picture of it! ^-^
I did find a video of it running up at the museum that Herb posted:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcrCdSQYAUE
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Cool looking saw, Chris! Glad they actually demonstrated it, too. :cheers:
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I saw on working just a few years ago it was on the end of a boom on a large digging machine instead of a bucket the blade was at least several meters in dia.they were trimming cypress wind row.They were cutting quite high as the boom would reach.no guards.
John
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Hi Chris, very elaborate and very impressive!
But when will the bearing alley be milled? Better would be after soldering and all in one run.
Or each of the segments separately.
Storing such a long crankshaft properly is a real challenge.
Michael 🍻
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Hi Chris, very elaborate and very impressive!
But when will the bearing alley be milled? Better would be after soldering and all in one run.
Or each of the segments separately.
Storing such a long crankshaft properly is a real challenge.
Michael 🍻
The bearings are each supported by a cradle shaped piece that will fit in the openings I have milled. I believe they made them separate for two reasons - they each have internal passages for water cooling, and it would allow them to be shimmed as needed to align the shaft. I will be waiting till after soldering to make the cradles, in case they need to be shimmed/trimmed individually. Also, the clearance holes in the mounting plates on each frame segment were drilled as a loose fit, so the frame sections can be aligned to each other - same was true of the original. I'll be bolting the frame sections down to a large aluminum plate on the display base, another opportunity to align things.
The crankshaft is also made in four sections, each identical, and each rotated/flipped as needed for each cylinder. The sections each have bolting flanges at the ends, and all the shafts were hollow on the original to save weight (as I recall they are about 15" diameter, so that is a lot of weight). Once I have the shaft sections made and assembled to each other I'll keep it installed in the engine bed - would not want to drop it and bend something!
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Closing in on soldering days. The bearing block supports are all milled and drilled for the cap and cradle bolts, and a single screw run through in the center of each to hold them to the vertical webs for soldering. Right now I'm working my way around all the frame rails to countersink the screw heads flush with the rails - when I started I did not have enough small flat head screws so up till now I've had pan head screws holding things together. The flat head screws will eliminate the need to mill/file the heads off after soldering, though they will need a dab of epoxy to fill them smooth.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Znpxqnk1/IMG-3080.jpg)
After I am done countersinking the screws, I'll start in on making the pump brackets at the aft end of the frame. On the plans that pump is labelled as 'sanitary pump', though I don't know if that refers to the sanitary sewer portion of the ships plumbing or if they mean bilge pump - the plans were originally in German with English translations, and some of the translations are a little off.
I am hoping that we get a day or two of warmer weather here in the next week so I can get outside for the soldering work, its not much fun when its below freezing, plus the propane tank pressure isn't as good when its that cold.
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looking so nice!!! from 1885-1915 the US navy was very proud of the complex types of castings they could produce!!!
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I've just finished reading through from the beginning of this post, and WOW! Wonderful CAD modeling. Outstanding fabrication.
I'll be following along with great excitement. Keep up the amazing work!
Todd
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Thanks guys!
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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The brackets to hold the pump at the end of the crankshaft were next. Started with a couple chunks of bar stock, and started whittling them down to size and shape. They need to fit into theside of the I beam shape of the rails, and extend out to form a platform.
(https://i.postimg.cc/1tktWDm2/IMG-3081.jpg)
The undersides were cut back to make the two side supports
(https://i.postimg.cc/66ZT8bzX/IMG-3082.jpg)
Tops were drilled for the mounting screws, and centers milled down to leave the side platforms.
(https://i.postimg.cc/MH1GgXXT/IMG-3085.jpg)
And, the weather is still down at/below freezing, so its not a fun time to go outside for all the soldering work on the rails. Instead I'm going to move ahead on some of the other parts - starting with the discs for the outboard column supports. I have the first 8 cut/trimmed to size, these will go on the top of the rails to form the base mounts. Next will cut another 8, thicker, that will be the bottom ends of the columns. Then can drill all of them for the ring of bolt holes. If the weather doesn't improve soon, will either move on to starting the vertical columns, or maybe start roughing out the bearing caps and cradles.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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After lunch I got the rest of the discs for the vertical columns cut out - when I turned around from the lathe I saw that the shop elves have found a better (in their minds) use for the first batch...
(https://i.postimg.cc/vTP60cKV/IMG-3087.jpg)
I cut down some bar stock for the bearing caps and cradles, it is in the oven getting stress relieved now, with the U shapes they will be cut into, the normal bar stresses would warp them during machining.
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That's what I call press fit! :cheers:
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Can I borrow the elves for some heavy lifting. Need to move a Clarkson T&C for a friend tomorrow.
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If those disks are steel Chris, you could have some fun if you made an aluminum set and substituted them overnight. The light ones might get tossed through a window though..... :mischief: :Lol:
A set of lead ones would be a variation after the aluminum ones..... :mischief: :Lol: Sorry, the evil brain cell kicked in for a minute there! :cheers:
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If those disks are steel Chris, you could have some fun if you made an aluminum set and substituted them overnight. The light ones might get tossed through a window though..... :mischief: :Lol:
A set of lead ones would be a variation after the aluminum ones..... :mischief: :Lol: Sorry, the evil brain cell kicked in for a minute there! :cheers:
Steel on one side, ali on the other... :LittleDevil:
Can I borrow the elves for some heavy lifting. Need to move a Clarkson T&C for a friend tomorrow.
I asked, they said they are busy. Unless you have chocolate chip cookies!
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That's what I call press fit! :cheers:
:Lol:
And typical safety last elves, no spotter!
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Today was a 'holey' day, drilling lots and lots of holes! :Jester:
With all the discs for the lower vertical column ends cut/trimmed (thin ones get mounted on the frames, thick ones go on the ends of the columns), I set up on the rotary table to drill the holes around the perimeter of each set. I stamped each pair to keep them together just in case there was any drill wander along the way even though I was spot drilling first, been bitten on that in the past. Then each pair was put in the chuck and drilled for the tap size together. Came back again with a clearance drill with the thick plates. Lotsa cranking...
(https://i.postimg.cc/FRW24kTZ/IMG-3088.jpg)
Also a pass on the thicker ones on the lathe to counterbore the underside of each thick plate so I can use a 4-40 hex head screw to attach the plate to the column and still have the column sit flat on the lower plate.
(https://i.postimg.cc/hvN6JWWQ/IMG-3092.jpg)
Here is the set of 8 pairs. I will wait till after the soldering gets done on the frames (assuming it ever warms up again - its been warm every couple days all winter long till now. :facepalm2: ) to drill/attach the lower plates, so I can ensure the gaps from plate to plate and the plates to the inboard mounts are precise. Not going to tap the lower plates till then either, since the holes/threads will pass through the brass plates on the frame tops too like they would in the original, max strength that way.
(https://i.postimg.cc/kG2LXMZd/IMG-3093.jpg)
As I mentioned yesterday, I had stress relieved and cut out the blocks that will become the bearing caps and cradles from larger bar stock.
(https://i.postimg.cc/gc7ftRXc/IMG-3089.jpg)
The larger ones in the stack on the left will be the bearing caps, the smaller ones on the right will be the cradles for the bearings themselves. Next steps will be to start truing up the sawn edges and taking the blocks to overall size before starting in on the detailed shaping.
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You don’t stop amazing me DOG. You are a non stop metal eating machine….LOL…Do you own a gold mine all that brass I been seeing is like gold bud?…and you know I like brass……. :Love:
:drinking-41:
Don
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Nice pile of disks and gold bricks!
I'm not following where the disks are going, but I'm sure it will all become clear in a few days/weeks.
Looking really good, Chris! :popcorn:
Kim
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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You don’t stop amazing me DOG. You are a non stop metal eating machine….LOL…Do you own a gold mine all that brass I been seeing is like gold bud?…and you know I like brass……. :Love:
:drinking-41:
Don
Okay, okay, you guys figured it out - my shop elves were digging in the basement and struck a vien of 360 brass! :shrug: :Jester:
Nice pile of disks and gold bricks!
I'm not following where the disks are going, but I'm sure it will all become clear in a few days/weeks.
Looking really good, Chris! :popcorn:
Kim
These pictures from the CAD model should help. Here is the corner of the frame, showing the vertical columns I am talking about (blue). The thicker disc goes on the end of the column, the thinner one will be attached to the frame top rail. Bolts down through the top disc and into the frame hold it all together:
(https://i.postimg.cc/YCT6JrNW/Columns.jpg)
In this shot you can see how the vertical columns go up to the outboard side of the cylinders:
(https://i.postimg.cc/43VDwmKW/IP-Cylinder-CAD-1.jpg)
And here is a shot of the bearing block assembly, showing the cap on top and the 'cradle' underneath the bronze bearing:
(https://i.postimg.cc/XYrKHG5W/Bearings.jpg)
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isn't it too cold up there to be showing that much brass :naughty:
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isn't it too cold up there to be showing that much brass :naughty:
:paranoia: :lolb:
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Yes, that close up really helps!
I'm sure it was in many of the other pictures, but I hadn't noticed that before. Now it's obvious, of course :)
Thanks Chris,
Kim
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Yes, that close up really helps!
I'm sure it was in many of the other pictures, but I hadn't noticed that before. Now it's obvious, of course :)
Thanks Chris,
Kim
:cheers:
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Ohboyoboy... Terry at the logging museum sent me scans of old ads by Cotta Transmission Company that show cutaways of their transmission in Lombard gas trucks. They are still in business, and I have found the old patents for it. Another project!! Cutaway working transmission model... They used dog clutches rather than plate style or hydraulic ones... Assuming the freezing rain tonight doesn't knock out the internet connection, going to be digging in on that!
:whoohoo:
For those newer to this forum, I built a live steam Lombard Log Hauler several years ago, and volunteer at the museum at events driving their Lombard collection.
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Not much to show today from the shop, have been cranking away at taking the blocks for the bearing cradles and caps down to size. Lot to do when shaping all sides of 8 of each part! Also got a good snowfall last night and had to get out and clear the driveway, first time the snowblower has been started for the year.
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Now a transmission, too! :insane: :popcorn: :popcorn:
(Got 11 inches of snow here last night, plowing all morning. Waiting tables at the Sugar on Snow Supper at the Grange tonight. Shop time......uuhhhh nope.) :cheers:
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Got the blocks for the bearing cradles taken down to overall dimensions...
(https://i.postimg.cc/NfwTnF1H/IMG-3096.jpg)
and milled off the lower corners, used a piece of wood as an angle guide for setting them in the vise
(https://i.postimg.cc/htDmSYZ4/IMG-3097.jpg)
and drilled all for the mounting holes on the bottom, used one of the bearing block holders from the engine bed as a drill guide. Partway through tapping them now. One is shown bolted into the holder on the right of the picture. And yes, there IS supposed to be the gaps at the lower corners of the blocks when in the holder. The plans specifically show this, I believe its there to allow shimming room plus saving some weight. The cradles and the caps on the original both are hollow with water cooling passages, though I am not coring them out. The plans unfortunately do not show how the water pipes connected up.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZKF3zmcD/IMG-3098.jpg)
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you'll have to let the evles use the snow-blower to clear all the swarf..
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you'll have to let the evles use the snow-blower to clear all the swarf..
A steam powered snowblower! They made giant ones for clearing train tracks. A mini one for the elves... Just what I need, more swarf flying down the hall! :Lol:
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Very nice, Chris! More great progress :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
So, they don't put the shims in those little triangle gaps do they? They'd go under the flat part of the block, wouldn't they?
Kim
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Very nice, Chris! More great progress :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
So, they don't put the shims in those little triangle gaps do they? They'd go under the flat part of the block, wouldn't they?
Kim
The plans don't show it, but I would assume under the flat part at the bottom. There are four bolts that go through the holder into the cradle from the bottom, so they could put shims under the cradle as needed. Its possible that the cradle is a little shorter than the opening side to side as well, no detail shown on that, so they could shim horizontally as well. These plans are not as detailed as the ones I had for the Ward pumping engine, which had all the details that the mould makers would need. These are more overall shapes/dimensions. One of those things that the plans never show but the people assembling it just know about!
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This is such an amazing project. Lots of incredible fabrication work going on here.
Todd
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Thanks Todd! Great to have you along for the journey.
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Have started trimming the blocks for the bearing caps, beginning with the recesses at the bottom so it will fit over the holder and the cradle. To speed up the process of making 8 identical ones, the cross cut for each end of the recesses was set up, one at a time, and all 8 blocks run through at each setting, indexing the end of the block with the end of the vise. Then I went back and cleaned out the field between each end cut.
(https://i.postimg.cc/PqpmLr0f/IMG-3099.jpg)
Next started trimming the upper end of the cap blocks, starting with forming the step where the nuts/studs will come through. On the right of the vise is the first cap set on top of the bearing holder and cradle blocks, showing how the recesses fit over the other two blocks. Where the steps are is where four studs/nuts will go through the entire assembly to hold the cap down.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Pqg11nkW/IMG-3100.jpg)
Six more blocks to cut the steps into...
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Nice to see how it all fits together! :popcorn:
Has it warmed up enough that you'll be able to do your silver soldering soon? It's still cold out west, but it's mostly above freezing now, which really makes a difference to me. Hope you're getting some warmer weather soon!
Kim
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Nice to see how it all fits together! :popcorn:
Has it warmed up enough that you'll be able to do your silver soldering soon? It's still cold out west, but it's mostly above freezing now, which really makes a difference to me. Hope you're getting some warmer weather soon!
Kim
Hi Kim/CNR,
Temperatures are still hanging around freezing during the afternoon, down in low 20s overnight, same for at least another week. The weather guessers are projecting that we are stuck in this pattern for the next several weeks. Before mid february we were having a warmer than normal winter, now we are having a normal one. Had to get out the snowblower for the first time a couple days ago, and the standby generator kicked in for a couple hours Saturday when the ice storm the day before knocked out the power. If it was just one or two small parts I'd still go out, but for the large number of sessions needed on the engine beds I'd rather wait till it warms up and I can enjoy it.
So, not looking good for soldering weather anytime soon - I'll keep going on the rest of the engine bed parts, and will make up the metal/wood display base after that. Also have started in with CAD work on that transmission for the Lombard trucks (the gas engine ones) that I got a lot of details on from the museum. A pretty simple transmission, 3 speed forward/1 reverse, uses dog clutches rather than pressure plates so the gears stay in mesh at all times.
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Splendid work as ever :praise2: :praise2:
If I recall correctly gas turbines (jet engines) were also used to blow snow and unfreeze railway points :headscratch:
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Splendid work as ever :praise2: :praise2:
If I recall correctly gas turbines (jet engines) were also used to blow snow and unfreeze railway points :headscratch:
Thanks Roger!
I wonder how many miles I'd go before I landed with the jet engine... :ROFL: The shop elves would love one of the little ones they make for RC airplanes - chase down squirrels and roast them too! :Jester:
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Today is threading and jig making day for the bearing blocks. Getting the holders threaded to hold the caps. Then will need to make up a jig to hold each assembly to the faceplate to bore the hole for the bearings. After those holes are bored, the top of the caps will be rounded off and finish detailing done around the mounting bolts. The top of the caps also get lifting eyes and oil holes.
(https://i.postimg.cc/mDWy66mY/IMG-3101.jpg)
Four sets assembled, four to go...
(https://i.postimg.cc/85dm8BYq/IMG-3102.jpg)
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Enjoy your tapping day! Be careful to take breaks so you don't give yourself carpal tunnel issues! :popcorn:
Kim
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Enjoy your tapping day! Be careful to take breaks so you don't give yourself carpal tunnel issues! :popcorn:
Kim
Tapping is done, and I did take breaks. Learned that one during the Ward engine build when I got a case of tendonitis in the thumb from all the cranking and tapping, fortunately one course of injections and rest fixed it. Don't want to go through that again, quite painful.
All of the sets of bearing blocks are assembled, and have the jig for boring made, just need to get it aligned and bolted to a faceplate. The plates I have been using are looking like swiss cheese, so have dug a fresh one out of the pile. Pics on that when it is ready.
:cheers:
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Whew! That's a lot of tapping.
Todd
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Whew! That's a lot of tapping.
Todd
It was starting to attract woodpeckers! :Lol:
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Got the jig completed to hold the bearing blocks for boring the center holes on the lathe and milling the outside of the caps:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Fzzq9HLb/IMG-3103.jpg)
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It was starting to attract woodpeckers! :Lol:
:lolb:
Nice jig! Isn't it fascinating that half of the work to build these models is spent making something to hold it for machining? :popcorn:
Todd
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I like your boring Jig Chris - it really should help aligning all the bearings :ThumbsUp:
Per :cheers:
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Yup - this kind of jig takes a little time but is well worth it when making 8 that need to be the same! :cheers:
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I have a friend that always says "I can't believe how you make tools to make other tools, then you use those tools to make parts!" when I show him what I'm up to in the workshop. (very little these days but used to be a lot!) :cheers:
I'm ready for your next post Chris even though it will likely be boring (with drills and a boring bar!) :Lol: :cheers:
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I have a friend that always says "I can't believe how you make tools to make other tools, then you use those tools to make parts!" when I show him what I'm up to in the workshop. (very little these days but used to be a lot!) :cheers:
I'm ready for your next post Chris even though it will likely be boring (with drills and a boring bar!) :Lol: :cheers:
Reminds me of some of the shows on the development of technology like Connections and Industrial Revelations, one invention allowing the next one to be invented... :ThumbsUp:
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Today is Boring Day - boring out the holes for the main bearings. Here is the first one after drilling a starter hole and taking it out to size with a boring bit. These holes will hold the bronze bearings. I added some stick on wheel weights to the jig to balance things out so it didn't vibrate much at speed.
(https://i.postimg.cc/W4605R40/IMG-3104.jpg)
and the first one set in place on the frame, also sketched on the rough shape of the top of the cap as it will be after shaping.
(https://i.postimg.cc/rmVxbhd3/IMG-3105.jpg)
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Chris, as I have been told by several people "You excel at boring!" :ROFL:
Kim
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Chris, as I have been told by several people "You excel at boring!" :ROFL:
Kim
'Or 'is it better to have character or be one?'
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'Or 'is it better to have character or be one?'
Does One exclude the Other ? :mischief:
Per
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'Or 'is it better to have character or be one?'
Does One exclude the Other ? :mischief:
Per
Nope! And can have neither too!
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Bearings boring looks great! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
There wasn't an earthquake warning here, so I guess you had the balance weights pretty close! :Lol:
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Enough boring bearing holders, got a thundering herd of them done:
(https://i.postimg.cc/C58sjcz2/IMG-3106.jpg)
Next will start on shaping the outside of the caps. Adapted an arbor from the pile of them in the drawer (just a short chunk of round bar, hole in the end for the bolt, with the end of it and the cap turned to match the bore in the parts) and have that chucked up on the rotary table. Next time I'll start milling the outside of the caps. The shape comes down right next to the screw heads, so I'll remove those one at a time to get closer in there.
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love the process!!! the bed will be a model by itself.... :cheers:
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love the process!!! the bed will be a model by itself.... :cheers:
So when the bed is done I can stop? :naughty: :Jester:
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Started in on the first round of operations on the bearing caps. Lots more shaping to do after this, trimming on the ends and around the mounting bolt steps, then holes for the oil/water inlets. In looking at the drawings closely, I saw something that I've never seen before on bearings (though its probably common, I've just never noticed it). The bearings are not just top/bottom halves, they are actually four pieces - two more short sections come in from the sides at the joint line, these two sections are just a few inches tall and have adjusting bolts of their own. Makes sense on such a large crankshaft (over 15" if I recall right) to have them, to take up wear from the sides as well.
Anyway, here is the setup for rounding off the tops of the caps down to the bolt steps:
(https://i.postimg.cc/SsB7jvWJ/IMG-3112.jpg)
First couple done to that stage, 6 more to go...
(https://i.postimg.cc/gj3yhHD4/IMG-3113.jpg)
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Those bearing blocks look really great! Interesting about the side shimming. :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :cheers:
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Here is a snippet of one of the plans that shows what I was trying to describe. They also have cutaway views with more detail but they are hard to read, lots of shading in a small space, to show the inner pieces of the adjustable pieces. So, I am using the general arrangement view they gave. The red outlines the moving parts from the sides, the blue arrows point at the screws that move those pieces in and out. And no, I am not going to attempt to make these parts at such a small size! Up higher on the left side of the cap, the line at a 45 degree angle goes through a flange - that is where the water cooling jacket connects to the pipes. At the very top is the lifting ring they could use to crane the cap on and off. There is also an oil port not shown in this view.
(https://i.postimg.cc/vH0rRTcP/Bearings.jpg)
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Nicely rounded-off bearing caps, Chris! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Boy! Very busy parts! Actually, all the parts on this engine are very busy. Lot's of detail going on everywhere!
Kim
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Ummmmm.... Chris?
Shouldn't the two outer tabs that you have attached to the bearing caps actually be part of the lower bearing supports? Or was that one of those "I'm making MY machining life simpler" decisions?
Don
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Ummmmm.... Chris?
Shouldn't the two outer tabs that you have attached to the bearing caps actually be part of the lower bearing supports? Or was that one of those "I'm making MY machining life simpler" decisions?
Don
Yup! There are a number of small changes that I made to simplify the design, the other drawings show more little details that were not practical at scale too.
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I guess this is a lot like eating an elephant. I admire your talent and drive.
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Chris - are those metric dimensions on the bearing block drawing?....That engine is enormous !!
Enjoying watching your build come together.
Regards
John
/edit/ - just went back to post #1 where you stated it was German designed (hence metric)..
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Chris - are those metric dimensions on the bearing block drawing?....That engine is enormous !!
Enjoying watching your build come together.
Regards
John
/edit/ - just went back to post #1 where you stated it was German designed (hence metric)..
Hi John,
Yes, its both - the plans are metric as you found, AND the engine is enormous! 8000 horsepower, size of a house. And there were two in the ship, one per prop!
Chris
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I guess this is a lot like eating an elephant. I admire your talent and drive.
I prefer chocolate chip cookies to elephant cookies... :Jester:
Big projects are a great way to keep busy in retirement!
:cheers: :cheers:
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Would those side pieces be there to prevent the bearing shells rotating with the crankshaft?
Just me thinking out loud.
Ian.
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Would those side pieces be there to prevent the bearing shells rotating with the crankshaft?
Just me thinking out loud.
Ian.
In other views in the plans they show how the bearing material is dovetailed into the cap and cradle, looks like it was cast onto the other parts like babbitt possibly. For the model I'll put in a small pin. On the original the bearing assembly is a quite complex thing with all the passages and channels.
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Got the last of the caps rounded off on top, and also rounded the outer ends on the belt sander.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Ls5fdCvY/IMG-3114.jpg)
I've sketched on some lines to show the next step on the caps - need to shape around the bolt posts at each end. I think I'll make up a little jig, with one of the holes centered on the rotary table, and use a small end mill to round the end of the post, and take a pass between them to remove the portion in the middle. Another nice detail that should draw the eye. And yes, the socket head screws are just there for quick holding during the construction, they will be replaced with hex nuts!
(https://i.postimg.cc/k5HS7Qhj/IMG-3115.jpg)
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Wonderful :praise2: Did I note you say earlier that the bearings had water cooling jackets or was that something else?
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Wonderful :praise2: Did I note you say earlier that the bearings had water cooling jackets or was that something else?
Yes, they did on the original. I am not adding them to the model, they cast the openings inside the caps and cradles.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: looking great Chris!
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: looking great Chris!
Thanks Jeff!
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That's a lot of caps. Looking great as always! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :cheers:
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Thanks Steve!
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Those are some SERIOUS bearings, by gawd. Nice work, Chris. They make me think of the Sand Pebbles (the book more than the movie) where Jake Holman is meticulous about hand scraping the gunboat's crank bearings until they're "just so".
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Those are some SERIOUS bearings, by gawd. Nice work, Chris. They make me think of the Sand Pebbles (the book more than the movie) where Jake Holman is meticulous about hand scraping the gunboat's crank bearings until they're "just so".
Great movie, havent read the book (yet). Imagine having to scrape 8 sets as big as this one, for each engine! :ShakeHead:
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Moving along on shaping the bearing caps, they were set up on the rotary table to first cut the space between each bolt post
(https://i.postimg.cc/rFgkHMmJ/IMG-3117.jpg)
then round the outer ends of each one. Each went quickly, but there are 32 of them in all, spent as much time running the screws in and out as in cutting the ends
(https://i.postimg.cc/y8bzVj03/IMG-3118.jpg)
but the end result was worth the time. Then drilled/tapped each cap for the lifting rings, and drilled the angled hole for the water jacket connections. On the table to the right you can see one of the trim rings, the others have them installed. They were cut to be a press fit and snapped into place.
(https://i.postimg.cc/9QMh5Kwj/IMG-3120.jpg)
The parts so far:
(https://i.postimg.cc/mr1Wh9SX/IMG-3121.jpg)
We are still stuck in a winter weather pattern, another 5 or 6 inches of snow yesterday, and going to stay cold for at least another week. So, next I think I'll start on the metal base plate and wood display base while I'm waiting for better outdoor soldering weather. Those of you who are afraid of the surface grown alloy known as 'wood' may want to skip those posts! :Jester:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
The bearings and bed assembly are great Chris! The relief milling around the bolts on the bearing caps add a lot of visual appeal. :cheers:
We had heavy snow here yesterday too. Never thought I'd be wishing for "brown" season (the one between white and green seasons) , but this year the white season is hanging on a long time. I've got two big boxes of stuff to spray paint, and I can't wait to get my foundry projects going, so I'm awaiting the warmer days too.
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Impressive and beautiful!
Still quietly following along.
Dave
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Beautiful bearing caps, Chris!
Rounding off those bolt bosses really makes the look, doesn't it?! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
It was a lot of work, but well worth it.
Kim
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The details are the salt in the soup.
I love that 🙂.
Michael :cheers:
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I'm glad for the pictures at this stage. All that gold color. Some day painted over, and will look properly all of a piece, but with photos we can still remember what the brass stage looked like, which is remarkable. :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :cheers:
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Yes, once the gussets are in place, that photo would make a perfect centerfold for some model engineering magazine ! Chris should consider selling shop posters of it; $50 a copy, signed copies $75.
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Yes, once the gussets are in place, that photo would make a perfect centerfold for some model engineering magazine ! Chris should consider selling shop posters of it; $50 a copy, signed copies $75.
Yup Miss March right there...
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Yes, once the gussets are in place, that photo would make a perfect centerfold for some model engineering magazine ! Chris should consider selling shop posters of it; $50 a copy, signed copies $75.
Yup Miss March right there...
She's really built, look at those girders! :lolb: :ROFL:
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Hoo boy - ain't goin there! :Lol:
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What alignment options are possible for the bearings?
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What alignment options are possible for the bearings?
The bolt holes in the end plates on the bed frames are drilled as a loose clearance fit, so some adjustment/shimming is possible there. The bearing blocks themseleves have two bolts holding them onto the rails from underneath so some adjustment there is possible too. Also the cradles under the actual bearings are bolted down with four bolts from underneath the holders, so those can be shimmed too. The holes that are there now will contain the actual bronze split bearings. That all should be enough, I hope!
:cheers:
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Would a long line boring rod/tool (ala Rudy Kouhoupt) work to make the final bore on the bearings, you could work from each end and get 3 inside bearings and then some spacers to help get the ends,, how long is the bed? way back when I remember using a drll powered unit to bore VW flat four blocks for new main bearings..
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Would a long line boring rod/tool (ala Rudy Kouhoupt) work to make the final bore on the bearings, you could work from each end and get 3 inside bearings and then some spacers to help get the ends,, how long is the bed? way back when I remember using a drll powered unit to bore VW flat four blocks for new main bearings..
The bed is 19" long from outside of the end bearings - my Sherline lathe bed is 21" long, minus the chuck and tailstock! Not a chance of line boring on these tools. :ShakeHead:
I am not concerned about the alignment. Running a straightedge down the length of the engine beds when assembled showed it is very straight as is, in vertical and horizontal directions. Worst than can happen is some warping during the soldering, but past experience tells me I should not have any problems there. Any slight deflection can easily be made up when assembling the engine bed - remember that it is soldered up in four sections, and the sections bolt together, so there is plenty of room for adjustments. This is very different than a monolithic engine bed that is cast or soldered into one piece. A length of 3/4" steel rod as an assembly guide will ensure things will fit. The engine bed will bolt to the aluminum floor plate, which bolts to the 2" thick wood base.
:cheers:
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The floor plate was marked out and the openings milled. I used the milling jig from the bed rails to hold it, after milling the top flat again since it was notched up during the rail making.
(https://i.postimg.cc/mgFncLSL/IMG-3124.jpg)
Here is the floor plate with the engine bed set on top.
(https://i.postimg.cc/d02SB5Xg/IMG-3127.jpg)
I decided where to put the holes for bolting the plate to the wood base - will use blind t-nuts inset into the bottom of the wood base to give the bolts someplace to thread into. The plate was drilled for the mounting bolts, then clamped to the wood block to act as a drill guide to transfer the holes on the drill press. Also counterbored the bottom of the block for the blind nuts.
Next step is to recess the top of the wood block to give the cranks, conrod ends, and eccentrics room to move. The crank/conrod ends swing down about 1" from the top of the floor plate, which is why I am using such a thick wood base. I have the block clamped to the tooling plate on the mill and am using a long end mill to cut the openings. Kvom, I think this is one of the long end mills you kindly gave me a few projects back! :cheers:
(https://i.postimg.cc/tgQMWKrh/IMG-3131.jpg)
One pair of holes milled in, four more sets to go...
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Chris, looks great, and not even a shaving or speck of sawdust! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :cheers:
Question....how did you cut the rest of the holes in the plate with such a small mill? Or is the plate more than one piece?
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Chris, looks great, and not even a shaving or speck of sawdust! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :cheers:
Question....how did you cut the rest of the holes in the plate with such a small mill? Or is the plate more than one piece?
This mill has an adjustable arm to let the headstock come out farther from the column. Normally I keep it all the way in, which puts it in the middle of the table travel and keeps the headstock the most rigid. For the two openings around the center one, I moved the headstock arm outwards. For the last center opening, I clamped the plate to the jig sideways along the mill table axis, with the clamps through the openings on either side.
For the wood base, I am milling all of the openings with the block lengthwise on the table, even there I will have to come in from either end so the block does not overlap the handwheel, which would make turning it awkward. I could have done the same thing on the plate, but with a shorter end mill the headstock does not come low enough given the riser I have on the column.
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Very versatile. I looked the mill up. :ThumbsUp: :cheers:
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That's going to be a beautiful base, Chris!
Kim
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Very versatile. I looked the mill up. :ThumbsUp: :cheers:
One thing I don't like with it - on the normal columns for this version, you can adjust the angle of the arm, swing it horizontally to reach off to the end of the table more. However, the top of the column is smooth, so under milling pressures sometimes it will slip with awful results. I picjked up their fixed-angle version, that has a key across the top so the arm cannot pivot but can still slide in/out, which solved the problem. The bottom of the base still has a little play where it bolts in from underneath, one of these days I'll take the column off and add a key there as well since it CAN still pivot a degree or three.
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Correction on the post earlier, it was Kvom who sent me that long end mill! Sorry!
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More milling on the openings in the base block...
(https://i.postimg.cc/W4mJyF0f/IMG-3133.jpg)
With the length of the mill table I was able to do four across from one end to the middle opening, then swapped the block around to do the last three. When those are done I'll get the block finish sanded and ready for varnish. This block is Spanish Cedar, which looks like Mahogany after it is varnished, but its a lot lighter weight. This block is left over from a boat years ago.
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According to the latest weather foreguess, the end of this week is looking like a couple days up around 50F which is enough for soldering fun outside. Hope they are right, the forecasts around this area are notoriously bad for anything after the previous week! We are about due for a slight warmup, thats the usual pattern in this part of the world. Spring weather is normally starting later in April around here, still a lot of snow here.
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That'll look wicked decent. :cheers:
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Thanks Steve!
The wood base has been handed off to the Wood Elves for sanding and varnishing over in their tree house shop. While that is going on, I'll get started on the last of the parts for the engine beds. Need to make up one more set of gusset plates to go under the bearing block holders - these are straight sided rather than the curved ones on the rest of the beds, so they will be easy. Only three per side of each bearing block, but that adds up to 48 total.
First I am making the bases for the vertical frames that go on the inboard side of the beds. These are simple rectangles with rows of bolt holes. Started out by cutting and trimming the bar stock to length for all eight of them. Here is a picture with two of them set where they will go on the engine beds, pointed at by the red arrows:
(https://i.postimg.cc/sg73p1Qn/IMG-3134.jpg)
They will be inlet into the top rails of the beds. That will have to be done after the soldering work since the recesses will go through some of the temporary screws. Its still looking like temps around 50 on Thursday and Friday, still hoping for that!
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Some new information on the Ohio from the National Archives. Last year I had contacted them about the original plans they had for the Ohio and others from the class of ships it was part of. The response was that they were digitizing them and hoped they would be available online around the end of the year. Hadn't seen them so just contacted them again.
The reply was that the index cards, 1393 of them listingwhat is on each rolled plan, is now online. But, they have no plans to scan the plan sheets themselves though they can be accessed andcopied i. Person. Sigh.
At least I was able to go through the cards, which are like card catalogs from old libraries. Turns out they do not have sheets for the engines, or any other machinery, just the ship itself. So, at least I know not to visit or hire a researcher to do it for me.
Very glad Dave had the engine plans and had a copy made for me!!
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I am utterly amazed at the amount of work you have put in to shaping all of those bearing holders and caps. WOW! They all look so good too.
Todd
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Thanks Todd! Sure seems like it has been a lot of work for the base of the engine. And this is one of the simpler shapes!
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The wood shop elves finished up with the varnish work on the wood base (polyuerethane spar varnish dries quick - set enough to handle now though still a little soft). The metal shop elves are inspecting the base and its fit with the metal parts. They set a length of 3/4" bar in to get a better idea of the size of the finished crankshaft.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ydCr4Yvb/IMG-3136.jpg)
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
The assembly looks great Chris! I think Bucket Bob's ears perked up when you said "bar" though. Are the Elfensteiner cases secured in the spirit locker for the night? :Lol:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
The assembly looks great Chris! I think Bucket Bob's ears perked up when you said "bar" though. Are the Elfensteiner cases secured in the spirit locker for the night? :Lol:
Yes, though I did hear them talking about getting out the steam hammer to break the lock...
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That looks mighty fine Chris. The varnish is surprisingly fast. Question, was there some kind of giant universal joint to the prop shaft after the engine, or was the crankshaft low enough to just go straight out. And if so, was the engine bed itself level or angled aft?
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That looks mighty fine Chris. The varnish is surprisingly fast. Question, was there some kind of giant universal joint to the prop shaft after the engine, or was the crankshaft low enough to just go straight out. And if so, was the engine bed itself level or angled aft?
Great questions. I don't know for sure since I don't have plans for the rest of the ship, but from other big ships I've seen they direct connect the engine shaft to the prop shaft, no universals, all inline so the engine has to be down low enough. Its helped by the fact that the propeller is so large, and the shaft is halfway up that diameter.
A while back I found a great cutaway view of this type of ship, its online here:
http://loc.gov/pictures/resource/ppmsca.58681/
You can download the high res version (326 MB) - large, but you can zoom in and see all the details, each part is numbered with a legend below it saying what it is. It does show the thrust bearings and such on the prop shafts.
:cheers:
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The cruisers Brooklyn and New York were four engined two shaft ships, so two engines had to be aligned to the shaft,, the forward engines could be un-bolted and they run on the aft engines for economy..
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The cruisers Brooklyn and New York were four engined two shaft ships, so two engines had to be aligned to the shaft,, the forward engines could be un-bolted and they run on the aft engines for economy..
Interesting setup! Hopefully they could do the switch quickly, and without dropping a bolt into the bilge...
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It took more than twenty minutes with the ship at dead stop!!! At the battle of Santiago the Brooklyn was set up for two engines with no time to couple.. but the spanish ships were in poor shape hull,coal and engineering.. all steam to the two engines and she still ran them down..
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Thanks Chris, too slow an internet connection to download the big file enjoyably, but enlarging the larger JPG file, it looks like the prop shaft has upthrust, actually, at least in relation to the keel. Can't tell at this scale if the keel is parallel to the waterline, or has drag. But anyway, looks like the prop shaft is a relatively straight shot out the stern.
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No universal joints. properly aligned and by virtue of the length, rather flexible.
Dave
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And the stern would be lower than the bow, they drew the keel level in the picture but its not.
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nice photo in the engine room of the USS Brooklyn,, amazing overly made hand-wheel..
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That is an interesting handwheel - also looks like a lever operated cam to lock it in place.
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So when they unbolted the engines for "economy", I assume that the unbolted prop shafts were just allowed to free-wheel? If so that would explain the "at a dead stop" condition for bolting things back together.
Don
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I assume that the unbolted prop shafts were just allowed to free-wheel?
Only two shafts. The paired engines were coupled end to end.
(It becomes pretty clear why the engines needed to be stopped. :lolb:)
Gene
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The two engines for one propeller would be end to end, no long shaft between them, so when unbolted the engine farthest from the prop would not be running. To reconnect, they would have to get the holes lined up again in the connector, which must have used a barring engine to slowly turn one engine till they lined up. Must have been a fun process with the captain yelling at them to move faster!
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not to hijack a thread but a picture is worth a whole bunch of words,, inboard views of the USS New York,, showing the for and aft engines for one shaft and the coupling section to tie them together,, there was most likely issues with piston position and timing to get both engines driving the same shaft smoothly..
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Back on the Ohio engine, where there was one giant engine per propeller, I went back and made up the rest of the gusset plates needed. These are for under the bearing blocks, 3 per side, 48 total plates needed. Just like with the other gussets, I set up on the lathe with a slitting saw blade and the bar held in a vise on the cross slide.
(https://i.postimg.cc/MpwQ49fx/IMG-3137.jpg)
Need to take a file to the bottom corner where the blade went through last on each plate to remove the bur left behind. These are left rectangular, they didn't have them cut in with an arc like the rest did.
About out of things to do till I can get the beds soldered up. One more storm moving through today and tomorrow, then its supposed to warm up for a couple days. If not, maybe I'll start roughing in the bronze bearings on the lathe...
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Lots of little bars of gold there! :popcorn:
Hoping you get a break in the winter weather soon, Chris. Looking forward to seeing those bases soldered!
It'll be summer in a few months and we'll be complaining about the heat ... just can't make some people happy, eh? :ROFL:
Kim
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Lots of little bars of gold there! :popcorn:
Hoping you get a break in the winter weather soon, Chris. Looking forward to seeing those bases soldered!
It'll be summer in a few months and we'll be complaining about the heat ... just can't make some people happy, eh? :ROFL:
Kim
There is a big garden store a few miles from here with several giant greenhouses - I need to make friends with the owners so they will let me use a back corner of one of them in the winter for soldering!
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I did remember that I needed the lifting rigs for the bearing caps. Simple bit of turning with a threaded end and a cross hole, the plans don't show any fancy ring shape, just a post with a hole in it, so easy to make. I turned/cut the threads on both ends of four pieces of rod stock, used a parting tool to narrow the top section, drilled it on the mill, then parted off back on the lathe again:
(https://i.postimg.cc/j2f3ZRLR/IMG-3138.jpg)
Closeup of one on the bearing cap
(https://i.postimg.cc/gcL7YH41/IMG-3140.jpg)
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I saw the lifting eye in place and wondered why it was needed, and then the brain kicked in and reminded me what you were working on!
I don't think I have ever followed a thread where so much time was spent on a base plate! Again, it reminded me of what you are working on!
I really have to admire your stick to it attitude. How many parts so far ... 500 or so?
Hopefully the weather will co-operate and you can get some of the bits finished!
:cheers: :cheers:
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I saw the lifting eye in place and wondered why it was needed, and then the brain kicked in and reminded me what you were working on!
I don't think I have ever followed a thread where so much time was spent on a base plate! Again, it reminded me of what you are working on!
I really have to admire your stick to it attitude. How many parts so far ... 500 or so?
Hopefully the weather will co-operate and you can get some of the bits finished!
:cheers: :cheers:
Nothing like that. It's only 474 so far! Those bearing caps were 40 inches long, about 12 inches wide on the original. Definitely need a hoist for those!!
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Whoops, forgot about the support plates, make that 498 parts! :DrinkPint: :thinking:
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I was a long way off then! :lolb: :lolb:
Looking forward to the rest of this build.
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I was a long way off then! :lolb: :lolb:
Looking forward to the rest of this build.
You were right on the money if you include the couple of parts that got dropped on the floor and stolen by the shop gnomes, never to be found!
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nice photo in the engine room of the USS Brooklyn,, amazing overly made hand-wheel It looks as though the man standing on that steel rod thingy has bent it ????
Willy
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While waiting for the good weather to arrive tomorrow (forecast is holding so far) I decided to do some stock prep on the main bearings. Got them all cut/trimmed to length from a piece of bearing bronze rod, and drilled the starter hole for the boring bar. I'll hold off boring them till the shaft rod shows up, found some ground bearing rod at Speedy Metals and ordered it, should be here next week. I'll bore the bearings to match, then put them on an arbor to turn the shapes on the outside - narrow center to fit in the bearing blocks and flanges on either end. The centers will be relatively thin so holding them on the arbor will help support the center sections.
(https://i.postimg.cc/P5sVMdPS/IMG-3141.jpg)
With luck the silver soldering on the engine beds will finally start tomorrow afternoon!
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Any estimate of how much of the original bearing blank will remain after boring out the inside and putting flanges on the outside? You going to have to hire another elf to shovel the swarf?
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Any estimate of how much of the original bearing blank will remain after boring out the inside and putting flanges on the outside? You going to have to hire another elf to shovel the swarf?
They have hooked up an excavator for the swarf!
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What's your plan for splitting the upper and lower halves of the bearings?
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What's your plan for splitting the upper and lower halves of the bearings?
My normal method is to make them in one piece, and split them with a fine jewelers saw blade. The thin kerf that takes out gives just enough room to lap the bearings to the shaft while leaving a little gap for future wear takeup. Many ways to do it, thats the way I have settled on. Sawing the thin walls is easy and saves soldering and desoldering and cleaning up the residue.
:cheers:
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Not using your homebuilt 14 gigavolt electron beam cutter this time Chris? :zap:
Shame to keep it just for pizza and deep well drilling. :Lol:
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Not using your homebuilt 14 gigavolt electron beam cutter this time Chris? :zap:
Shame to keep it just for pizza and deep well drilling. :Lol:
Had to lock it up after the shop elves used it to remotely slice squirrels... :ShakeHead:
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Had to lock it up after the shop elves used it to remotely slice squirrels... :ShakeHead:
Ooooohhhh, I bet that got messy.
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And FINALLY a decent weather day so I can get out and do the silver soldering without freezing my fingers! So far I have one pass done on all the engine beds, and the parts are in a bucket of Sparex to clean up for round two. I did change my mind on how to do them, and am soldering up the four sides of the beds all assembled. Its working out well, using a medium/large tip on the torch to heat up an area at a time. Here is one of the frame sections, up on its side, with flux spread along the horizontal seams on the upper and lower rails, and lengths of Easy grade silver solder wire cut and laid in around all the seams. The black is the flux (harris black) and the thin line of silver color is the solder.
(https://i.postimg.cc/SRK4NzXs/IMG-3147.jpg)
Then I started at one corner with the torch, and worked my way along the length heating up and flowing in the solder, in a few places using another length of the solder wire to add a little extra if the solder wicked along the surface instead of into the joint. Also used a dental pick to guide the solder. Did that on the upper rail, then did the same on the lower rail down at the bricks. Here is one of the frames after a round.
(https://i.postimg.cc/rmjck9w3/IMG-3144.jpg)
Set that aside to cool, then off to the pickle solution to clean up. Next I'll turn the frames 90 degrees and do the same on the other two sides. In looking at the joints so far, everything looks good, can see solder wicked through to the far side of each seam, through the slot that each rail sits in.
As mentioned before, I will be adding the gussets into the slots around the perimeter later, using some loctite to glue them in place. Trying to solder them in now, on both sides of every web, would have been a nightmare. Also, the bearing blocks are separate, they bolt on through the bottom of the webs.
Quite happy with the results so far, time for a lunch break and let the parts clean up in the pickle solution for round two this afternoon!
:wine1:
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Yay! Great to see that you're getting some silver-soldering weather! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
The soldering looks great so far, Chris!
Kim
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Yay! Great to see that you're getting some silver-soldering weather! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
The soldering looks great so far, Chris!
Kim
Thanks Kim! Its nice to finally get this part under way again, and I'll be able to do things like inset/attach the upper frame mounts now.
I'm doing the work inside the garage (overhead door all open for ventilation) to keep the lighting more even (shop lights above). There is this big yellow ball up in the sky that we haven't seen here in a couple weeks, I think its called the Sunn, something like that! :Jester: Still a few inches of snow on the ground, but that is melting off, and we are supposed to be in 50s tomorrow with rain, so that will make the rest vanish pretty quick. If its needed after tomorrow, more soldering weather due in by Tuesday.
:cheers:
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Second round of soldering is done and parts in to soak. All looks good so far! :DrinkPint:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Thought I saw a high plume of heat and smoke to the far southeast! :Lol:
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Did you have to trade in your pickle pot for a pickle barrel :stickpoke:
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Did you have to trade in your pickle pot for a pickle barrel :stickpoke:
For small parts I have a plastic wide-mouth bottle, for larger ones like this and boilers I have a bigger bucket with a screw on lid with a seal, think its a 2 gallon capacity. Thats my 'barrel'! For boilers its not tall enough for the entire thing, but it will cover more than half the length at a time.
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And here are the parts after a good swim in the bucket:
(https://i.postimg.cc/vBRYtvP6/IMG-3148.jpg)
Whose turn is it to do the polishing to get it back to gleaming brass? Anyone? Hello? Darn, the internet is down again, no one is answering! :lolb: Good thing they will be painted!
Here is a closer look, you can see how the solder has wicked through from the far side so its plenty strong.
(https://i.postimg.cc/QtpX4WPY/IMG-3149.jpg)
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Err ... I was going to offer but there is customs and all that stuff to get it up here, and the shop elves would likely want to come as well and I think you said their passports had run out. Also there is the wine cellar issue!
It's likely better if you just paint it!
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Err ... I was going to offer but there is customs and all that stuff to get it up here, and the shop elves would likely want to come as well and I think you said their passports had run out. Also there is the wine cellar issue!
It's likely better if you just paint it!
:lolb:
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Hey Chris, for buffing up that brass there are those little scotch-brite wheels that fit on a dremmel. They work pretty well. Don't last long, but you can get a bag of a few hundred on Amazon for not terribly much. That's what I'm using to clean up my copper after soldering.
Here's the one I got: 300 wheels for $38. You can gett fewer - like 100 for $18 or something like that.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09YLJ4F23/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o05_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09YLJ4F23/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o05_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
But you'll be painting, so... ;D
Kim
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Hey Chris, for buffing up that brass there are those little scotch-brite wheels that fit on a dremmel. They work pretty well. Don't last long, but you can get a bag of a few hundred on Amazon for not terribly much. That's what I'm using to clean up my copper after soldering.
Here's the one I got: 300 wheels for $38. You can gett fewer - like $100 for $18 or something like that.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09YLJ4F23/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o05_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09YLJ4F23/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o05_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
But you'll be painting, so... ;D
Kim
Yeah, I was kidding about buffing it!
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WOW! That's looking awesome! That is quite the soldering job. So many joints. Really well done.
Todd
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WOW! That's looking awesome! That is quite the soldering job. So many joints. Really well done.
Todd
Thanks Todd!
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This morning was the start of nut and bolt time - running in the bazillion 2-56 screws and nuts to hold the frame sections together.
(https://i.postimg.cc/7YhvPcPx/IMG-3150.jpg)
I am putting in the ones on the top and outsides to start - the ones that go on the inside of the frame vertical webs will be done last, those are the most tedious and will take a while since there is very little room on most of them for wrenches/pliers/tweezers. Steamer Dave, keep your windows shut this afternoon and tomorrow, there may be some nasty words aimed at you for getting me into this project during that work, but I don't mean it and am having a great time overall! :Lol:
So far all those upper/outside ones are on in all the joints, as proven by this photo:
(https://i.postimg.cc/kgRkKbtz/IMG-3152.jpg)
For now they are not tightened down, because the next step is to get the frame sections aligned as best I can with the little bit of adjustment possible with the clearance in the holes for the screws. Once that is set I'll tighten them the rest of the way and start in on putting in the rest of the screws. The frames are sitting nice and flat on the floor plate, and the round bar is not rocking, so I think there may just be a little adjustment needed side to side between the frame sections. But, time for a lunch break and let the fingers rest after getting all those tiny nuts/bolts put on!
(https://i.postimg.cc/Hshqr2jb/IMG-3154.jpg)
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Yeah, I was kidding about buffing it!
Hmmmm, a big bucket of Mother's Metal Polish and lot's of little rags might just keep the shop elves off the streets and out of trouble. Idle hands and all that dontchayaknow. Might be just the thing to avoid another squirrel slicing incident.
Don
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That's like a superhuman number of nuts and bolts, Chris! :popcorn: :popcorn:
Can you even get a socket over some of those middle nuts/bolts? They seem mighty close together. Hopefully, you won't have to trim the nuts & heads down to a smaller size! :o
Kim
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that looks like a good candidate for some glass beading!!! it can give a scale cast look and help the paint adhere.. (if I didn't have easy access to a blast cabinet one would be on my shopping list)
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Turned out incredibly well. 👍
I'm very impressed.
Michael
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The alignment is done down the length of the engine bed, as near as I can tell with a long straightedge on the inside faces of the bearing block holders. :whoohoo: The final tweaks will have to wait till the bearings themselves are made and can be tested with the ground bearing rod stock (arriving this afternoon). It is sitting flat on the floor plate, and appears to be aligned, though I know that till the actual shaft is tried/lapped to the bearings, it won't be possible to know if it needs a last tweak, but there is enough adjustment in the bolt holes, so I am calling this one a win for now. :wine1:
Tghs: glass beading would likely look very good and help the paint. I don't have a compressor with enough flow to drive a normal size blast cabinet/gun, I do have one of those airbrush sized sandblasters that can throw fine grit. Its good enough to blend out tool marks before painting, but it would be very tedious for this much surface area.
Kim: in the spaces between the inside end sections and the middle ones, no, there is not enough room for a socket, there is only 1/2" from the screw head to the closest web, and part of that is under the top/bottom rails. So, best I am likely able to do is get the nut started with tweezers and snug it down with open end wrenches. Very tedious, but do-able. On the joint between the two middle sections, there is plenty of room to work like there was on the outside ones. So, its just the four sets. Absolute worst case, if I cannot get them in, would be to glue in some shortened screws as dummies, but I don't think that will be neccessary.
Don: I have a feeling that would work, but the shop elves would get bored, and start tearing up my favorite t shirts for rags to get back at me!
:cheers: :cheers:
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With the engine bed frame rails all together, it was time to get them attached to the floor plate. Started out with the holes under the bearing blocks, where I could direct drill through the holes in the frames (with the blocks removed). Started out with the same clearance drill size used to make the holes in the frames, to make a guide dimple in the floor plate. Then came back with the tap drill size and went through the plate.
(https://i.postimg.cc/jd7srXH3/IMG-3155.jpg)
Tapped those holes. You can see the openings near them that give access to the bolts that hold the bearing blocks on.
(https://i.postimg.cc/jSYRq7vx/IMG-3156.jpg)
Then ran screws into some of those holes to hold the frames in alignment, and marked out for the rest of the holes around the frames. Because of the overhanging upper rail, I couldn't run the drill down through the holes directly, so I found a hex wrench that would just fit in the holes, and used that to mark the locations. The tip of the wrench was dipped in some black paint and then pushed down through the holes to leave a paint mark on the plate in the middle of the hole. Went around all the holes, then left the paint to dry.
(https://i.postimg.cc/MGWxVJhg/IMG-3158.jpg)
This morning I removed the frame from the plate, and used the paint marks to drill/tap the holes
(https://i.postimg.cc/Vk9mJkHj/IMG-3160.jpg)
Now I'm going around and running in all the screws. Started with the ones down the center to align the frame/plate, then went back to get the rest put in. Bunch more to go...
(https://i.postimg.cc/CKm04605/IMG-3161.jpg)
Next step will be to glue in the gussets with a dab of loctite, and start milling/drilling to attach the bases for the upper frames...
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Looking good, Chris! Lots more drilling, tapping, and putting in screws! :popcorn:
Kim
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Hi Chris,
Nice work on the bedplates. :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Have you considered using JB Weld adhesive to glue the gussets in place rather than Loctite, which is only a retainer (acrylic) ?
Just a thought
Mike
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Hi Chris,
Nice work on the bedplates. :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Have you considered using JB Weld adhesive to glue the gussets in place rather than Loctite, which is only a retainer (acrylic) ?
Just a thought
Mike
I did consider it, but the JB just loves to get all over my fingers (right before my eyebrow itches of course), elves shoes... The loctite red dabbed in the slot before running in the plates should be enough to hold, they just need to be held in place against vibrating out again. Its also easy to clean up any squeezeout. I've used it for similar things in the past with good results, and I've got a large bottle of it that I won in the raffle at the RC submarine event in Carmel last year.
:cheers:
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Looking good, Chris! Lots more drilling, tapping, and putting in screws! :popcorn:
Kim
The little Proxxon drill press got a workout, as did the tapping stand, and my fingers!
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This afternoon I got started on milling the recesses for the vertical frame bases - the frames up to the cylinders will bolt down to these pads. The holes for the bolts have been tap drilled in the pads already but not tapped yet. They will be used as drill guides to extend the holes down into the vertical webs in the engine beds, then the holes tapped in pads and beds together. I'll probably put in a small holding screw through the pads first.
(https://i.postimg.cc/rwb4hg9V/IMG-3162.jpg)
In the picture, the first three recesses have been milled. The two one the right have the pads set in place to show where they will go, the third one by the cutter is empty so far. You can see that the holes in the pads are off center left/right, the feet on the upright frames come angling down in the center and extend out over the pads, so having them offset lets more of the legs sit on the pad - this is the same as shown in the plans for the original.
You can also see where some of the temporary screws from soldering the engine beds are still showing. I'll be filling those with some of the modelling putty I have from the Liquitex acrylic paints that I use on carvings - its a non shrinking acrylic paste that works great for that sort of thing. It could also be done with some JB Weld, but the putty is cleaner and easier to sand flush with the rails.
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I get more excited every time I see this thread Chris! Keep it coming!
Dave
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Those are looking very good Chris. Still have a few to go, don't you?
16 of those vertical frame pads and recesses in total? Or wait, those are only on one side and the rods are on the other side, right? So 'only' eight total? Still, that's a LOT!
This is like doing a large multicylinder IC engine. Hey, wait! It IS a large multicylinder engine! (just not IC) :ROFL:
Kim
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I get more excited every time I see this thread Chris! Keep it coming!
Dave
Will do Dave! Its getting close to being a foundation and time to start on bearings and crankshaft. Gonna look like an engine soon.
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Those are looking very good Chris. Still have a few to go, don't you?
16 of those vertical frame pads and recesses in total? Or wait, those are only on one side and the rods are on the other side, right? So 'only' eight total? Still, that's a LOT!
This is like doing a large multicylinder IC engine. Hey, wait! It IS a large multicylinder engine! (just not IC) :ROFL:
Kim
Right, only eight of these. Once I get past the bearings it will be back to 'only' four of everything! I got the rest of the slots cut and have started drilling and tapping the holes. Lots of them!
Hmm, four cylinders but double acting, so more like an 8 cylinder? :noidea: Fires every rev so maybe like a 16 cylinder! :old: :LittleDevil: :lolb:
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Later on when you're making the oiling system or the condensor for the Ohio engine, just start calling them the distributor and the ignition coil. See how long it takes to wake The Kraken commenters! :LittleDevil: :cheers:
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Later on when you're making the oiling system or the condensor for the Ohio engine, just start calling them the distributor and the ignition coil. See how long it takes to wake The Kraken commenters! :LittleDevil: :cheers:
I'll get some small spark plugs and put them in the oiler holes! :LittleDevil:
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The holes for the upper frame pads were drilled by using the pads as a drill guide - measured in from the edge of the frame to where the first hole needed to be, and aligned left/right till the drill was aligned with the hole in the pad. Moved along left/right to drill all eight pads that way.
(https://i.postimg.cc/SsMxTwhy/IMG-3163.jpg)
Then over to tap that first hole, which extends down into the center web of the frame. Used the shank of the drill through the hole to align the pad, and clamped it in place.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sDcDNYtZ/IMG-3164.jpg)
Then tapped each hole and ran in a screw to hold the pad in position.
(https://i.postimg.cc/kGPXkfJW/IMG-3165.jpg)
With one screw holding each pad in position, went to the drill press and could quickly drill the rest of the holes using the pads as drill guides.
(https://i.postimg.cc/bN8wgCFh/IMG-3166.jpg)
The rest of the holes (lots of them!) were tapped for 4-40 screws.
Then, on to the mounting holes for the round pads that support the column poles on the other side of the cylinders. Laid out for the first one, and went down the line drilling holes for the rest of them, one in the center of each frame web.
(https://i.postimg.cc/8kLChQ44/IMG-3167.jpg)
Those holes are all drilled/tapped, ready to install the round pads, but first I need to tap all the perimeter holes in each pad. Good place to break for lunch! Tapping all those holes will take a few sessions, and we have our monthy RC submarine run at the pool this afternoon! :cartwheel:
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Good progress, Chris! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Have a great time drowning ships this afternoon!
Kim
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Hope you didn't hit any unexpected water or natural gas deposits during all that drilling! :Lol:
Enjoy the sub run! Keep positive thoughts (when surfacing).
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Hope you didn't hit any unexpected water or natural gas deposits during all that drilling! :Lol:
Enjoy the sub run! Keep positive thoughts (when surfacing).
Good progress, Chris! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Have a great time drowning ships this afternoon!
Kim
It's a fun group of people, always buoyant! :ROFL:
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Your framework is a work of art, Chris. :popcorn: :popcorn:
You guys don't eat subs for lunch do you? That would be like canibalism. :ShakeHead:
Or wash it down with RC cola? :DrinkPint:
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Your framework is a work of art, Chris. :popcorn: :popcorn:
You guys don't eat subs for lunch do you? That would be like canibalism. :ShakeHead:
Or wash it down with RC cola? :DrinkPint:
Thanks!
We prefer to eat fishing boats! And RC Cola is my favorite.. :Lol:
Pool run went great, whole group made it out, fun time.
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Catching up from yesterday afternoon and today - got the round pads all drilled/tapped and test fit. The one on the right also has the pad that will go on the bottom of the column set in place. These need to be loosened up again for the next steps, since they sit partly on top of the bearing block, which need to come off to fit the bearings over at the lathe.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Xqy27r10/IMG-3169.jpg)
Then I started installing the gusset plates finally! :cartwheel: I put a little puddle of the loctite retaining compound on a plate, and used a dental pick to transfer that into each of the top/bottom slots in the frame before pushing in the gussets. There were a few where the solder had made a fillet in the back corner of the slot, and had to file off the corner of the plate to fit over that. I started with some of the ones where the fit was looser to see how well this would work. After a while to let it set, went back and tried pulling on the plate, and it was stuck in solid, so I continued on with the rest. Had to prop up the base on the side of a small anvil to get a good working angle on things, and worked my way around the outside ones first then back to the inside ones.
(https://i.postimg.cc/KckFgQdm/IMG-3174.jpg)
Really changes the look of the engine beds!
(https://i.postimg.cc/HjD6JTF8/IMG-3177.jpg)
There are still the ones under the bearing blocks not installed, they will be done last after the bearings are made and the blocks are all aligned and tightened down.
So, on to finishing up the main bearings. I got in the length of ground 303 stainless bearing rod, nice and shiny and also a lot rounder than the usual round bar. I cut off some short lengths that will be used as the short sections on each crank. For now, one will be used as a go/no-go gauge for the bearings. Here is a picture showing all the parts ready to go - I had previously made up the blanks for the bearings, trimmed to length and close to final OD, with the centers bored out within .1" of the final ID.
(https://i.postimg.cc/kM0CNKmK/IMG-3178.jpg)
The medium length piece sitting on top of the blocks is the leftover from cutting the other pieces, its about the length that the long bar will be cut into to make the individual crank sections. Remember that the crankshaft was made in four identical parts, each flipped/rotated to give the final 90 degree crank positions. For now, I am leaving the main bar long to use in aligning the bearings.
Then I set up on the lathe, and bored out the holes in the bearing blanks to be a nice fit on the shaft. Here it is once the test piece would fit in the bearing:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Hsbg6nYK/IMG-3179.jpg)
Once that one was snuck up on, the rest went a lot faster:
(https://i.postimg.cc/cLZN2W6J/IMG-3180.jpg)
Next time I'll make the arbor to turn the bearings on to shape the outsides to fit into the bearing blocks...
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It's really coming along nicely. So much detail in there.
Todd
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Those gussets really add a lot to the base, Chris! Certainly makes all that work seem worthwhile, doesn't it?! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Kim
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Thanks guys! I've also been doing some experimenting with paint for it. Painting brass is always tricky, and shapes like this part has makes sanding pretty impractical. Everyone always mentions etching primers, but I've had so-so luck with them. In the US at least, I don't think they are the same as they were in years past, and all the articles just mention that type of primer, no one specifies a paint brand or specific model number, plus the manufacturers get really vague on what metals its meant for. For those of you who may know of a good one, PLEASE mention the brand/model for it, plus note that most paints go by different names in different countries even if owned by the same parent company!
I did find some references to using spray on clear lacquer as a primer on brass, as well as varnish. Both appear to stick well to brass, even un-sanded smooth areas. I tried some samples on scrap bar stock, and found they both stuck really well on even smooth bar stock as it comes, without any sanding or special cleaning, which was a surprise. The automotive spray paints I like stick to them well too. The lacquer I tried was a spray can of kyrlon clear coating, had some on the shelf. Dried quick, thin, and not too horribly stinky, though for large parts I'd do them outside.
Going to do some more experiments - plenty of time before this base is ready for paint. Hoping to avoid all the touchups I've needed on previous models where the paint got chipped off during the rest of the build.
:happyreader:
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Just one word: Wow
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I did find some references to using spray on clear lacquer as a primer on brass, as well as varnish. Both appear to stick well to brass, even un-sanded smooth areas.
That's good to know, great tip. :ThumbsUp: The etching primer I've tried didn't seem to improve the adhesion on brass much. Progress to date looks fantastic!
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Chris,
Your work is absolutely stunning. You must have the worlds supply of patience.
Colin
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I/We really should be used to it by now - when we follow one of your Major Builds Chris ...!!!...
... But this one takes the 'Cake' (or what ever you prefer to put here) .... I can't think of Any Build with so many details, just in the 'Foundation' :praise2: :praise2: :praise2:
As for the Etching Primer - I used some AMAZING stuff from the USofA more than 40 years ago - BUT Anything remotely resembling that kind of stuff will throw you in Jail here in the EU for the last 30 years (or so). This has me always paying attention when there is a reference to somebody using Etching Primer - but it always turns out to be 'Not available' here .... or not produced anymore ...!
Ok - I will move myself back to the rest of the Peanuts - - - :cheers: :popcorn: :cheers:
Per
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I/We really should be used to it by now - when we follow one of your Major Builds Chris ...!!!...
... But this one takes the 'Cake' (or what ever you prefer to put here) .... I can't think of Any Build with so many details, just in the 'Foundation' :praise2: :praise2: :praise2:
As for the Etching Primer - I used some AMAZING stuff from the USofA more than 40 years ago - BUT Anything remotely resembling that kind of stuff will throw you in Jail here in the EU for the last 30 years (or so). This has me always paying attention when there is a reference to somebody using Etching Primer - but it always turns out to be 'Not available' here .... or not produced anymore ...!
Ok - I will move myself back to the rest of the Peanuts - - - :cheers: :popcorn: :cheers:
Per
Same thing here in the US, all the paint formulas had to change some years back to reduce solvents and other nasty ingredients.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
The gussets make s big difference to the appearance of the bed assembly. Fantastic! Re primers for brass- do you know any airframe mechanics or maintainers? I've had some odd partly used pint tins of zinc chromate primer, a few ounces each, over the years from a friend who used to maintain and repair aircraft. It was nasty smelling strange green stuff but stuck like dung to an army blanket on alum and brass. I no longer have any and my source has retired. There was no brand name on the tins. Maybe an aircraft finish supplier could put you in touch with a retailer close by. :cheers:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
The gussets make s big difference to the appearance of the bed assembly. Fantastic! Re primers for brass- do you know any airframe mechanics or maintainers? I've had some odd partly used pint tins of zinc chromate primer, a few ounces each, over the years from a friend who used to maintain and repair aircraft. It was nasty smelling strange green stuff but stuck like dung to an army blanket on alum and brass. I no longer have any and my source has retired. There was no brand name on the tins. Maybe an aircraft finish supplier could put you in touch with a retailer close by. :cheers:
Not sure I'd want nasty green dung smelling stuff in the house, it would remind me too much of having a boss nearby! :LittleDevil: The one plane builder buddy I had passed away last year unfortunately too.
The lacquer route is looking good so far!
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:ThumbsUp: :cheers: re the lacquer!
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The bearings have been shaped on the outside, using a combination of parting tool and left/right turning tools, to fit the bearing holders:
(https://i.postimg.cc/02vvZFQC/IMG-3181.jpg)
Accumulating a herd of them on the bar to be used for the crankshaft:
(https://i.postimg.cc/wTkpr2RY/IMG-3184.jpg)
The bearing ID's are a little on the snug side, but that is fine since they will be lapped to the crankshaft after it is completed. They do make a good looking chorus line though.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Jz4LCXjD/IMG-3185.jpg)
And then the real test - does everything line up on the engine bed and still turn? YES!
(https://i.postimg.cc/fR2hzbvH/IMG-3187.jpg)
I started with the holders on the bed frame, and was able to slide in the shaft from one end, adjusting the holders slightly front/back as needed. The up/down direction was all fine as is, the front/back on a couple of them needed a tiny fraction of movement to get them to line up. I can still rotate the shaft by hand though it will get a lot freer once they are lapped, but that won't be done till the actual crankshaft is made.
A major milestone! :whoohoo:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Your craftsmanship is unbelievable Dog. Just the amount of setups making the bearing blocks amazes me not counting the frame work. You have that down to an art. Excellent work and …..You know …….I…………..likeeeeeee……. :Love:
:drinking-41:
Don
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Chris,
That is looking amazing, and that's only the bottom of this engine. When complete it will be HUUUUUGE . :praise2:
Colin
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Wonderfully done, Chris! Great to have that shaft turning in all those bearings bolted to the base. This is a pretty big milestone! :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
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Just great!!!
And in the background, flanges for crankshaft connections have already been delivered.
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Awesome work, Chris! That looks so cool!
Todd
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Thanks guys! Its great to have it up to this point, where its starting to show its purpose.
Michael, those bars in the background are for the crank pins themselves, same diameter as the crank shaft on this engine. The smaller discs in the background are the discs for the outboard column bases, much smaller than the crank flanges. The flanges to bolt the shaft sections together will be much larger diameter, 1.34" OD, they are still hiding inside a piece of round bar over in the bar stock rack. The webs will be cut down out of some 5/8" x 1" rectangular bar. This crankshaft is the biggest one I've done so far, almost double the size of the one in the Ward pumping engine model. The offset of the crankpins from the shaft will be 1.2", for a total piston travel of 2.4".
Right now I am getting the bearings split into halves, then need to drill for and install the pins to keep the halves from rotating in the holders. Then it will be time to start on the crankshafts themselves. There are four sections, all identical, that bolt together to make up the overall crankshaft:
(https://i.postimg.cc/3r6nRNJW/Crankshaft.jpg)
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I was in doing those last steps on the bearings, and realized that the crankshaft is not quite next - I need to install the straight sided gusset plates under the bearing blocks, and make up the studs for the bearing caps (up till now I've been using screws to hold them down for machining). The round column bases need to go back on as well, and also do some filler work on the tops of the countersunk screws used to hold the rails in place for soldering. So, crankshaft is another day or two out, but close to starting on it!
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So only 548 more gussets to make, then ? :Lol:
(hopefully you haven't run out of the shop screaming) :insane: :help: :Lol:
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So only 548 more gussets to make, then ? :Lol:
(hopefully you haven't run out of the shop screaming) :insane: :help: :Lol:
FORTUNATELY the gussets are already made, so no screaming laps around the yard as the neighbors look on, backing away slowly! :Lol: They just need to be glued in place, that goes pretty quickly.
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The bearings have been shaped on the outside, using a combination of parting tool and left/right turning tools, to fit the bearing holders:
(https://i.postimg.cc/02vvZFQC/IMG-3181.jpg)
Accumulating a herd of them on the bar to be used for the crankshaft:
(https://i.postimg.cc/wTkpr2RY/IMG-3184.jpg)
The bearing ID's are a little on the snug side, but that is fine since they will be lapped to the crankshaft after it is completed. They do make a good looking chorus line though.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Jz4LCXjD/IMG-3185.jpg)
And then the real test - does everything line up on the engine bed and still turn? YES!
(https://i.postimg.cc/fR2hzbvH/IMG-3187.jpg)
I started with the holders on the bed frame, and was able to slide in the shaft from one end, adjusting the holders slightly front/back as needed. The up/down direction was all fine as is, the front/back on a couple of them needed a tiny fraction of movement to get them to line up. I can still rotate the shaft by hand though it will get a lot freer once they are lapped, but that won't be done till the actual crankshaft is made.
A major milestone! :whoohoo:
That's amazing Chris! I am in awe! watching along!
Dave
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Glad you are along for the ride Dave!
The engine bed was one of the big items I was wondering how to make, the other biggie is the cylinders, we'll get to those when the time comes. Lots of time spent thinking and planning ahead on this build, which is part of the fun, brings out the enjineer in me! :)
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I was going to use a fine jewelers saw to hand cut the plit in the bearings, but seeing how well using a thin slitting saw worked for Michael the other day on his engine prompted me to try the same. It worked much faster with just a slightly wider kerf. To get both sides aligned for the cut, since the blade was not big enough to go all the way across the whole bearing, I made a felt tip pen line across the back side of the vise when cutting the first side, and lined that up with the top of the vise jaw on the front for the second cut.
(https://i.postimg.cc/SNzPDSr1/IMG-3188.jpg)
The halves (all stamped with numbers to keep them together and correct side out), were drillled for a short brass pin to keep them from spinning in the holders.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZqJDbrhX/IMG-3189.jpg)
All looking good
(https://i.postimg.cc/pLb6SwcW/IMG-3193.jpg)
This morning I am making the studs to hold the caps on, loctiting (red) nuts onto some 1" screws, which will have their heads trimmed off after its set up. I've also put some filler on the screw heads on the engine bed.
(https://i.postimg.cc/mgY5WmKQ/IMG-3192.jpg)
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Great work on the bearing! :popcorn:
This morning I am making the studs to hold the caps on, loctiting (red) nuts onto some 1" screws, which will have their heads trimmed off after its set up. I've also put some filler on the screw heads on the engine bed.
So, why are you loctiting nuts onto the screws? Wouldn't you loctite the screws into the base and use the nuts to hold the caps on?
Kim
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Great work on the bearing! :popcorn:
This morning I am making the studs to hold the caps on, loctiting (red) nuts onto some 1" screws, which will have their heads trimmed off after its set up. I've also put some filler on the screw heads on the engine bed.
So, why are you loctiting nuts onto the screws? Wouldn't you loctite the screws into the base and use the nuts to hold the caps on?
Kim
Either way works and looks the same when done, but this way its a lot harder to drop the nuts down into the well below the crank when installing them, and having to fish them out again - when the model is farther along it will be very unwieldy to tip the engine up to get the parts out from under the crank. Also, this way it doesn't matter if one hole has a few more threads than another, all the studs will come out with the right spacing up top. Six of one, bakers dozen of another... :Lol:
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Yes, this works well with the rotating saw blade. I used a 0.40 mm blade.
Kim, maybe Chris has finished bolts with the glued-on nuts that look like a skillful nut. With so many bolts, this is an advantage.
I would have cut off the screw heads in the lathe.
Michael
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Chris was faster
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The plans for the original show the lower nut to be shaped more like a thick washer, with a hole drilled/tapped through the side to lock it onto the stud, and there is another nut and ring down near the bottom - all to allow adjusting pressure and spacing, but totally impossible at this scale without access to a resident watchmaker!
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Ah, OK. Makes sense! :cheers:
Thanks!
Kim
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Got the bearing cap studs all done (piled to the right of the frame), and cut out the blanks for the connecting flanges between the shaft sections (tall large diameter pieces, each will make one pair) plus the crank webs (rectangular stack of long-ish bars). Had previously cut the crank pin blanks (thinner bars to the left of the tall flange stack)
(https://i.postimg.cc/k4Mtj5P0/IMG-3195.jpg)
The connecting flanges will be turned on either end of the blanks, drilled through the remaining center section for the connecting studs, and parted to make the pairs. The webs will need to be trimmed to length and bored at either end to fit the crank shaft and pins. To do that I'll make another faceplate jig. The outer ends of the shaft sections will be turned down slightly to form a shoulder for the flanges to butt up against. The crank pins will be turned down at either end to leave a narrower end to go into the web holes, with a shoulder for the web to butt up against to establish the spacing. The center shaft ends of the webs will be bored out to fit the OD of the shaft. All the pieces will be assembled with loctite and tapered pins. That all is easy to list out, but will take a fair bit of time to do it all.
:cheers:
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Calculator has a headache ... too many parts! The rate at which this is being fabricated is incredible. Pretty smart elves to do the night shift unattended :lolb:
:DrinkPint: :cheers:
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Calculator has a headache ... too many parts! The rate at which this is being fabricated is incredible. Pretty smart elves to do the night shift unattended :lolb:
:DrinkPint: :cheers:
Yeah, they get a lot more done at night when I am not there to slow them down! :lolb:
:cheers:
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Awesome to see those bearings installed. I'll bet this is getting pretty heavy.
Todd
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Great progress :ThumbsUp:
but totally impossible at this scale without access to a resident watchmaker!
And me who thought that You are the Resident WatchMaker :mischief:
Per
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Great progress :ThumbsUp:
but totally impossible at this scale without access to a resident watchmaker!
And me who thought that You are the Resident WatchMaker :mischief:
Per
I can do clocks. Watches, nope. Thats another order of magnitude smaller. Can change the battery in one! :Lol:
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This morning I was going to start in on prepping the bars for the crank webs, but first decided that it was time to finally do another of those ten-year-and-one-hour jobs, and finally make a work stop for the mill vise! Dug out an offcut chunk of anodized aluminum bar the right size, a bit of 1/8" rod, a SHCS, and the bolt/t-nut from the old tall toolholder from the lathe (since replaced with QCTP). Drilled a few holes, drilled/tapped a few more, and came up with this, which has three heights for the stop rod for different size stock and depending how its raised up in the vise. The two larger holes with black threads visible were already in the bar, they are not used for this tool.
(https://i.postimg.cc/YSZ8P9Hy/IMG-3196.jpg)
So, that long-procrastinated job done, it was put to use taking the blanks for the crank webs (8 of them) to size. So far I have one end of each trimmed square on one end, ready to take them to final length. They will also need to be narrower.
(https://i.postimg.cc/3RG9QTrr/IMG-3197.jpg)
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
I think you will find the work stop accessory very handy! Don't know how I got along without mine for so long. It was a similar 10 yr + 1 hr project.
Looking forward to seeing the web-based :facepalm: crank parts taking shape. :Lol:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
I think you will find the work stop accessory very handy! Don't know how I got along without mine for so long. It was a similar 10 yr + 1 hr project.
Looking forward to seeing the web-based :facepalm: crank parts taking shape. :Lol:
So the Ohio invented the internet as part of its engine... interesting! :Jester:
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So the Ohio invented the internet as part of its engine... interesting! :Jester:
I was told that Al Gore did that, a feller always learns sumthin new in the ole inter-webb.
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The crank webs are all trimmed to length, now startin in on the width, taking a little off each side. The new work stop is 'work'ing out great.
(https://i.postimg.cc/6qjkbZ94/IMG-3198.jpg)
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All of the crank webs have been taken to length and width but not thickness.
(https://i.postimg.cc/1zBmpJgy/IMG-3200.jpg)
One thing I was concerned about was the tapers that are at either end of the webs - on some of the steel bar stock there is a tendancy to warp slightly if one side is milled off but not the other. Both tapers are right where the shafts go through, as you can see in this shot from the CAD model. The taper at the main shaft end is smaller than the one at the crank pin end.
(https://i.postimg.cc/3r6nRNJW/Crankshaft.jpg)
I ran a test, tapering one end of an offcut like the real webs will be:
(https://i.postimg.cc/jjtqwGS8/IMG-3199.jpg)
I checked it against a straightedge before and after, and yup, it took a very slight bend away from the area cut back. Not much, but I am concerned that if I bore the holes first and then cut the tapers, which would avoid any interrupted cuts in the boring, the end will get tipped slightly, and then the shaft assembly wont run true. That would be very bad over the length of this shaft.
So, what I am going to do is cut the tapers on the ends, and then take a trueing cut on the outer faces to get them flat again before doing the holes.
:cheers:
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Sounds like a good plan. What about heat soaking them as well?
Todd
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Sounds like a good plan. What about heat soaking them as well?
Todd
I don't have a heat treat oven that will go to temps needed for steel. My kitchen oven will go high enough for brass. Not sure how high it needs to be for 303 stainless?
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From my time in industry, I recall that to anneal 303 stainless you would need to hold it at about 2000 F for 15 min per pound of material, then rapid cool it in water. This is just as extreme as it sounds. You can covert it to bananium very easily by annealing it - all the cold working stress loaded into it during manufacture is unlikely to be fully relieved by annealing. If you want to avoid the big "BOINGs" I'd keep it at room temp and machine your bores and tapers cautiously, as you planned.
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From my time in industry, I recall that to anneal 303 stainless you would need to hold it at about 2000 F for 15 min per pound of material, then rapid cool it in water. This is just as extreme as it sounds. You can covert it to bananium very easily by annealing it - all the cold working stress loaded into it during manufacture is unlikely to be fully relieved by annealing. If you want to avoid the big "BOINGs" I'd keep it at room temp and machine your bores and tapers cautiously, as you planned.
Good to know! So 303 doesn't have a stress relieving temperature, just an annealing one? Its so handy with brass to be able to stress relieve without annealing. Do you know if 303 can go to silver solder temperature without the issues?
:cheers:
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Well then, let's not do that. :paranoia:
:Lol:
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Wow! No idea that stainless acted like that! I've stress-relieved steel (like 1018) using a torch to just get it nice and hot all the way through for a while and let it cool slowly to room temp. That has worked pretty well for me. For steel at least. Sounds like it wouldn't work for stainless... good to know! Yikes!
Kim
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Chris, with the 300 series of stainless I used in industry I found that annealing was the only effective stress relief that was practical and predictable, especially with small size stock. With stock 1 1/2" thick or thicker our heat treater did some lower temp stress relief treatment that worked OK, but the procedure was very involved with many temp-up, hold, temp -down etc. steps and took a while, so it was costly. The small bar and rod stock just has so much cold working stress rolled in that it moves a lot during machining unless it's annealed first with the 2000 deg F / water quench. (your mileage may vary - all steel mills are not alike!) :cheers:
In industry I always tried to avoid costly heat treater annealing by designing parts in 300 series stainless to be machined with all over cuts on the outside of the stock first, fairly heavy cuts, let it go to bananium if it wanted to, wait 24 hr, re-establish datums and carry on machining. If the part distorted severely, to become full clovehitchium or squareknottium, it was scrapped. Not many parts warped that bad though. We did need to re-calibrate things sometimes if we got a raw stock shipment of really stable low stress material or really unstable high stress material. We really missed the old 'Goldilocks Stainless Inc' mill though, when they went under. Their stainless was always j-u-s-t right! :Lol:
I think silver soldering temp is far enough below anneal temp that you would not see annealing happen. But you can get warpage and distortion silver soldering stainless. In industry TIG is preferred for most stainless work generally, but you have to plan ahead and adjust for distortion doing TIG, too. There is no free lunch! :shrug:
Kim - yes heating to red heat and slow cooling in sand or wood ashes is very effective for stress relieving mild steel (low to medium carbon steel). Stainless stress is a whole other ball game! It's a fine material to work in but it takes a while to get to know the game plan. :cheers:
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Great information CNR!! As you say, it does seem to vary in amount from bar to bar and supplier to supplier, I've had some that I could cut right down the center and not warp at all, others that were looking for the chocolate sauce and peanuts to complete the banana split! I've learned to always take equal amounts off both sides when narrowing a flat bar, and do that in alternating cuts.
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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While working away on the stock for the crank webs, some thoughts occured to me about the crankshaft assembly. On the original the shaft was made of four identical shorter sections all flipped/rotated as needed and bolted together with large flanges. Made perfect sense for the original, just making one enormous crankshaft like that in 1900 was tough enough, let alone transporting and installing and aligning it all again. After drawing it all up in CAD to match the original and scaling it down, I was planning on copying that for the model.
:thinking:
But, then, was thinking (always dangerous late at night) about getting the spacing right on all the flanges and webs, getting all the rotations of flanges and holes correct, getting it lined up again... I realized that I am starting with a very nice piece of precision ground round bar, very round, very straight, long enough for the entire shaft, and that cutting it up, adding pieces, and expecting it to bolt back up as straight and with all the spacings correct is going to be difficult at best.
:thinking:
:headscratch:
Why not slip on the flanges to the full bar like the webs will be, and pretend it was made of four sections? That way I can use the existing frame to lay it in and get the spacings of all the parts, with some loctite to hold things in place for drilling and taper pinning...
:thinking:
End result will look the same, and be a WHOLE lot easier. No turning narrower sections on the lathe for the flanges and trimming each section to length. On a lathe that cannot pass the bars through the headstock (headstock hole is only 3/8", bar is 3/4") so alipgning the steady rest would be needed... Getting the flanges all aligned perfectly with the crank web assemblies...
:headscratch:
Nope! Going to make it with the one long bar and have the flanges be there but be just for looks! Aside from you guys, no one will know, and the result should be a lot better with a lot less hassle!
Unless someone has a really good reason why not? :shrug:
:cheers:
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I'd say give it a go Chris! I have made several two cylinder engine cranks that way, "on the rod" as it were, but note that they were much smaller than your sections for the Ohio engine. I don't see why it wouldn't work for the Ohio engine though. On my cranks I loctited the webs on the rods, then after two weeks or so curing time I drilled through the webs into the crank pins and the main rod and drove in spring pins (the C shaped heavy wall ones, with their gaps faced in the direction of rotation for highest strength). None have ever moved at all. Just food for thought. :cheers:
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For a critical part like that, splurge on some stressproof steel
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seeing your'e not lowering it into a hull in sections that sounds like a plan.. I'll keep my IBORC (international brotherhood of rivet counters) T-shirt in the drawer.. :stickpoke: you could put a small shim/spacer between the flanges-build the shaft- cut the shaft at the shims- replace the small shim with a full sized spacer and bolt things togather..
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For a critical part like that, splurge on some stressproof steel
For the shaft itself? Why? I am not cutting one side of the shaft. Also, I'd have to turn it down to size, and in one piece thats longer than my lathe... The ground rod I have is already the right diameter and rounder/straighter than I could turn it. Or do you mean for the webs? Using it for those would have solved the warp issue, though it would have taken more time to square up the stock from the round SP steel. I wish they'd make it in flat bar shapes!
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seeing your'e not lowering it into a hull in sections that sounds like a plan.. I'll keep my IBORC (international brotherhood of rivet counters) T-shirt in the drawer.. :stickpoke: you could put a small shim/spacer between the flanges-build the shaft- cut the shaft at the shims- replace the small shim with a full sized spacer and bolt things togather..
Hmmm, possible. Would still require getting the bolt patterns on the flanges exact to get good alignment, not sure how I would accomplish that. As long as I post a No-IBORC Members sign on my display area, I'll be fine with my plan! :Lol:
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seeing your'e not lowering it into a hull in sections that sounds like a plan.. I'll keep my IBORC (international brotherhood of rivet counters) T-shirt in the drawer.. :stickpoke: you could put a small shim/spacer between the flanges-build the shaft- cut the shaft at the shims- replace the small shim with a full sized spacer and bolt things togather..
Hmmm, possible. Would still require getting the bolt patterns on the flanges exact to get good alignment, not sure how I would accomplish that. As long as I post a No-IBORC Members sign on my display area, I'll be fine with my plan! :Lol:
Actually, as long as they don't try and take it apart, they won't know. And if you have a "do not touch" sign up, they won't be able to take it apart! Problem solved. IBORC welcome! :ROFL:
Kim
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Would still require getting the bolt patterns on the flanges exact to get good alignment
When you consider the end-use, the bolt patterns do not need to be aligned to a microdegree. As long as the angles are not grossly off nobody, including the builder, is likely to spot any problems. Any model multiple-cylinder steam engine will run rather lamely under the best of circumstances. :LittleDevil:
As pointed out earlier, perhaps by you, some engines are designed with very non-right-angles between cranks.
Gene
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Regardless of which method I use on the crankshaft, the webs still need to be shaped, and that work is progressing. I used the test piece as a guide for clamping each web in the mill vise and cut the taper at the outer end, where the crank pin goes:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Sxnkv3Ss/IMG-3201.jpg)
When all 8 were cut at the outer end, I set up to take a very light pass across the opposite side to get rid of the warp that induced at the end next to the taper. Just a trace taken off the main face, at the end next to the taper I could feel/hear it going a little deeper. Before doing this I could see light through the gap with a straightedge, deepest near the taper start. After, it is nice and flat. Since it was resting on the still-straight side below the taper, this cut is parallel to the original faces.
(https://i.postimg.cc/HxgmjLQc/IMG-3202.jpg)
Then set up to do a similar sequence on the other end, for the smaller taper where the main crankshaft comes through. In this shot you can see how I put two rods through the work stop, one on the angle guide block made from the test piece, the other rod on the web piece end. That way I could slide each piece in and get the same positions. Wish I could say I had planned it that way when making the work stop holder, but it was just dumb luck!
(https://i.postimg.cc/7L7DxzTr/IMG-3203.jpg)
Once all the webs were shaped to that point (more later to round the ends), it was time to make up a jig to hold the webs for boring the holes. I didn't have a chunk of aluminum thick and wide enough, so I am making the jig from a piece of hardwood. Started by bolting it to a faceplate and milling off the corners to get it to clear the lathe bed. Then, I used a boring tool to cut a shallow guide circle with a diameter that matches the width of the webs:
(https://i.postimg.cc/jSBt0c2h/IMG-3204.jpg)
That gave me an easy to see guide to cutting the slot in the jig to hold the webs. Since the circle was centered on the lathe axis, by milling up to the edges of the circle on both sides I knew the slot was centered as well. The slot was made wide enough for the web pieces to just slide in, and deeper than one of the webs so I can stack two and have both aligned. I extended the cut at the inner end out to the sides so the webs could slide all the way in without hitting the radius left by the cutter.
(https://i.postimg.cc/1XRZcY7y/IMG-3205.jpg)
Oh, and the little gizmo you can see at the lower left of the faceplate is my home made block to keep the end mill from trying to unscrew the faceplate - it clamps onto the faceplate rim and bumps against a screw/t-nut in the rotary table slot.
Here is one of the web pieces test fit in the slot:
(https://i.postimg.cc/mkdWdNKC/IMG-3206.jpg)
and a second one stacked on top, partway into the slot to position it as well:
(https://i.postimg.cc/qRxTKdLm/IMG-3207.jpg)
I need to make hold downs for the parts, found a couple of these bits of flat bar with holes from a similar jig on another model. A pair of them should hold the parts well, I need to drill down through the block into the faceplate for a long bolt to provide the clamping force. Not sure if I trust the wood to hold the threads well enough.
(https://i.postimg.cc/wxFzTg3M/IMG-3208.jpg)
I'll bore the smaller holes for the crank pins first, then turn the webs around and put in a short piece of rod to keep the webs aligned when boring the larger crankshaft holes.
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Would still require getting the bolt patterns on the flanges exact to get good alignment
When you consider the end-use, the bolt patterns do not need to be aligned to a microdegree. As long as the angles are not grossly off nobody, including the builder, is likely to spot any problems. Any model multiple-cylinder steam engine will run rather lamely under the best of circumstances. :LittleDevil:
As pointed out earlier, perhaps by you, some engines are designed with very non-right-angles between cranks.
Gene
Good points. The critical thing on the bolt holes is to have the flanges centered on each other so the shaft doesn't have runout. Also the flanges would need to be very square to the shafts for the same reason.
:cheers:
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seeing your'e not lowering it into a hull in sections that sounds like a plan.. I'll keep my IBORC (international brotherhood of rivet counters) T-shirt in the drawer.. :stickpoke: you could put a small shim/spacer between the flanges-build the shaft- cut the shaft at the shims- replace the small shim with a full sized spacer and bolt things togather..
Hmmm, possible. Would still require getting the bolt patterns on the flanges exact to get good alignment, not sure how I would accomplish that. As long as I post a No-IBORC Members sign on my display area, I'll be fine with my plan! :Lol:
Actually, as long as they don't try and take it apart, they won't know. And if you have a "do not touch" sign up, they won't be able to take it apart! Problem solved. IBORC welcome! :ROFL:
Kim
A do not touch sign backed by some angry looking elves holding fish hooks for wayword IBORC fingers! :LittleDevil:
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A modest electrical charge might discourage touchers. :zap:
Wilf
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A modest electrical charge might discourage touchers. :zap:
Wilf
:ROFL: Something like a modest 5kV, for instance? :ROFL: I think tasers peak at around 50kV. :o
Regards, Steve
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Evil. I like it!
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Here is the setup for boring the holes in the crank webs. The screws to hold the crossbars on were added, as was a brass weight plus some stick on wheel weights to balance it all. Started with drilling a hole through the webs - there is one pair of webs in the fixture, they are all number stamped to keep the pairs together from now on.
(https://i.postimg.cc/vT0qp55s/IMG-3209.jpg)
Then bored out the hole to size. The first hole is the outer end for the crank pin, i'm taking these to 1/2" diameter. The crank pins are 3/4" OD, and I'll turn a post on either end to fit these holes. The shoulder that leaves will serve to set the spacing between the two webs.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Wp8HFcCH/IMG-3212.jpg)
First pair with crank pin hole done
(https://i.postimg.cc/rFYZjC8G/IMG-3213.jpg)
and the rest with first hole done
(https://i.postimg.cc/J4hdjdW4/IMG-3214.jpg)
I cut a short length of 1/2" rod to use as an alignment tool, short enough not to stick out either side. This will ensure that the two holes in each pair line up properly
(https://i.postimg.cc/SRS1Tg2d/IMG-3215.jpg)
With the short rod in the hole, the pair was run into the fixture to drill/bore the crankshaft hole. You can just see the short rod behind the cross bar
(https://i.postimg.cc/2SbcKb6s/IMG-3216.jpg)
Drilled and bored the crankshaft hole to 3/4"
(https://i.postimg.cc/CKbvw3bJ/IMG-3218.jpg)
The final passes were light cuts to sneak up on the close fit on the shaft, I'm using a piece of the shaft material as a gauge:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Cx3PThnz/IMG-3217.jpg)
Taken out of the fixture, thats one pair of webs with the holes done. The ends of the webs still need to get rounded off, both concentric to the crankshaft. This is not the final spacing of the webs, the upper pin is too short to reach if I move the webs farther apart. Final spacing is about double this.
(https://i.postimg.cc/HxH6n62m/IMG-3219.jpg)
As you can see better here, the crankshaft hole gets close to the edges of the web. To join them later, I'll use loctite retaining compound first to get them positioned, wait for that to cure, then put in taper pins. I am figuring two pins at each shaft, one from the end, the other crosswise. The webs are thick enough to let the pins be spaced along the shaft axis.
(https://i.postimg.cc/KzNJMtqM/IMG-3220.jpg)
So, three more crankshaft holes to bore!
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CAD model seems to show holes through the web are smaller than the shafts. Looks like you chose not to make it that way.
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CAD model seems to show holes through the web are smaller than the shafts. Looks like you chose not to make it that way.
The circles shown in the cad model are actually the holes through the middle of the shafts, which are hollow in the original. I don't know how the originals were fabricated, what size holes they bored or how they were forged on.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Crank parts are looking great Chris!
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Nice work on the crank webs, Chris! Good use of that jig too!
Kim
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The jig is working great, just slide in the parts and everything is aligned, no need for adjustments or measurements.
:cheers:
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All the crank webs have been bored out for the shaft/pins:
(https://i.postimg.cc/vHWypQzT/IMG-3221.jpg)
They still need to have the ends rounded. While I was on a roll (spin?) on the lathe, I decided to turn up the flanges for the ends of each crankshaft section. Got the middle three turned to shape so far - these will represent the joints between the sections. I still need to turn the two for the outer ends, which are half as wide. Those would connect to the turning engine at the front end and the prop shaft at the aft end. To make them look like they were fabricated on the shaft and blended in, I left a little flare at the hole on each side:
(https://i.postimg.cc/cL0WWV9m/IMG-3223.jpg)
They still need to have the bolt holes drilled around the perimeter.
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Turned the rest of the flange rings after lunch. Here are all the webs and flanges slid onto the bar stock for the crankshaft - all close together to fit in the camera view without having to back away as far.
(https://i.postimg.cc/wBrtvhG0/IMG-3225.jpg)
Yesterday I 3D printed the figure behind the crankshaft - he is to scale (1:20) for the model. Really shows how massive this engine was in real life!
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Hey! where'd you get my likeness to print???
:lolb:
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Hey! where'd you get my likeness to print???
:lolb:
You got scanned by Superheroes-R-Us! :ROFL: Careful, or I'll print a miniature seagull to sit on your shoulder... :LittleDevil:
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you forgot to add the period correct mustache :stickpoke:
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you forgot to add the period correct mustache :stickpoke:
Um, he got it ripped off by the gears. Yeah, thats it! :Lol:
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That guy'll be able to give you a hand shifting the heavy parts around, anyway.....seagull or not :Lol: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Careful, or I'll print a miniature seagull to sit on your shoulder... :LittleDevil:
Fire Control stands ready to repel all boarders, Sir!
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AMWts8BiWeS0T0qa9kMlb4Jrcd8QCr6nGmtxWJwQS3XGuhdsqhIdzQM3XBKCwH0Qd06Dy7tEc4mNKyqBNO7IJxud0356jv8b3mVUerwESMqzwbFgxS0W0ndXBWTjGA8uIIQzkb4v7zdVBClTch_3aEWGtQJN=w940-h575-no?authuser=0)
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Careful, or I'll print a miniature seagull to sit on your shoulder... :LittleDevil:
Fire Control stands ready to repel all boarders, Sir!
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pw/AMWts8BiWeS0T0qa9kMlb4Jrcd8QCr6nGmtxWJwQS3XGuhdsqhIdzQM3XBKCwH0Qd06Dy7tEc4mNKyqBNO7IJxud0356jv8b3mVUerwESMqzwbFgxS0W0ndXBWTjGA8uIIQzkb4v7zdVBClTch_3aEWGtQJN=w940-h575-no?authuser=0)
:lolb:
I never thought to put a CIWS turret on my rc tugboat. Hmmm...
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Yeah, the seagulls on the rear turret know that Fire Control can't touch them because of the dome for the search radar. The only things they have to worry about are getting "cooked" when the search radar is lit off, or the Captain breaking out his blunderbuss.
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Today I started in on the crank pins, a pretty straightforward bit of turning. The ends are turned down to fit the holes in the outer ends of the crank webs, long enough to come through the far side of the webs. They will be trimmed back after assembly flush with the outer end and the tapered face of the web. So far I have all four pins turned at one end.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ydf689Yv/IMG-3226.jpg)
Test fit:
(https://i.postimg.cc/x8cfJCXY/IMG-3227.jpg)
The other end of each will get the same turning, but they need to be spaced over from the first one to leave the proper total width of the cranks. I'll measure between the bearings on each section of the engine bed to make sure that the distance works, and the bearing ends didn't come in too far - don't want any surprises later!
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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I decided to go ahead and get the engine bed painted now rather than after finishing the crankshaft and lapping in the bearings, figuring that doing the lapping is bound to splatter some oil/grease/slurry around which would be tough to clean off. So, this last week I got the prime coat of lacquer sprayed on, waited a few days, and painted the topcoat of grey. I'm assuming that the habit of the US Navy of painting everything that does not move fast enough in grey was already happening!
(https://i.postimg.cc/3R1pH7fm/IMG-3229.jpg)
It took longer to mask off the column pads and bearing holders (with bearings removed) than it did to do the actual painting. The scale size figure shows how massive the engine was...
(https://i.postimg.cc/C56qz7gK/IMG-3230.jpg)
Also rounded the outer ends of the crank webs, concentric with the crankshaft center. I had thought the inner ends were rounded too, but after checking the original plans again I realized they were not, they appear to have been left square.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sXsS81m3/IMG-3228.jpg)
This morning I have started turning the second end on the crankpins, after checking the actual distance between the bearings on the engine bed. Here are the first couple sets slid onto a piece of the crankshaft bar. The shop elves are back from their spring vacation, and back to quality checking my work.
(https://i.postimg.cc/8cCvp3x3/IMG-3232.jpg)
Two more crankpins to finish up, and I can start drilling the holes in the flanges...
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I was going to say that they rounded the rod ends of the webs for clearance. Then I realized that you've still got this great big honkin' rod end hanging out there, so that little bit of extra clearance on the web doesn't mean squat. If they were doing it to make it look pretty, you'd think they would have done the crank ends too. I doubt it was to help balance the crank, seems like too little-too late. What's your theory as to why they only rounded one end?
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Bucket Bob looks like he's figuring out how to put some LocLoose in the LocTite bottle....I'd break out a new bottle if I were you, when the time comes! :Lol:
The paint makes a huge difference on the base assembly. Looks fantastic. :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :cheers:
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What's your theory as to why they only rounded one end?
Purely a guess.
Engineers for those large engines would check for bearing heating by touching the rotating crank and rods while the engine was in full operation. This could have been a slight safety feature.
Engineers preferred to do that check when the crank was rotating up from the bottom, not down from the top. Of course they had to work with whatever they had.
Gene
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In this case the rounded outer end is not for clearance to the side of the engine bed, plenty of room there. I've seen the rounding on many of the large engines, whatever the real reason is. Could be for checking like Gene said, could be tradition, could be to reduce weight...
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It certainly looks more finished when a manufacturer or a modeler (you) do this.
I think details like that show a level of pride in what your doing.
Keep it up!
Sid
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Nice! Haze Gray and Underway!
Todd
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It certainly looks more finished when a manufacturer or a modeler (you) do this.
I think details like that show a level of pride in what your doing.
Keep it up!
Sid
:cheers:
Nice! Haze Gray and Underway!
Todd
Have not heard that phrase before, I like it!
:cheers:
I have three of the crankpins turned down on the second end, one more to go this afternoon. The first two have been loctited (green retaining compound) onto the webs and are setting up so I can pin them tomorrow. To align things, I put a section of the crankshaft bar stock through the larger holes, with no loctite, and clamped them in machine vises across the webs (crank pins in line the jaws). I'll be able to taper pin the crankpin ends, and then later can assemble/clock them onto the main shaft and loctite/taper-pin them in place there.
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The painted base sure looks the business now! And it looks like Mr Scale Figure forgot to move while they were painting and he got painted too! :Lol:
Kim
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I see that Kim kind of beat me to it ....
A big difference to see the Base painted - but did you have to Spray poor mister O'ne'In'Twenty, too .... or was he just too Slow .... :mischief:
Beer and Corn are still served in the Peanut Gallery :cheers: :popcorn: :cheers:
Per
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The scale guy was printed with gray filament, so you can't prove he got oversprayed. That should let me off the hook legally! :LittleDevil:
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The scale guy was printed with gray filament, so you can't prove he got oversprayed. That should let me off the hook legally! :LittleDevil:
A likely story... Sounds just a LITTLE too convenient to me! :ROFL:
Kim
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I think maybe the figure was trying to tell Bucket Bob his name was Phil A. Ment while Bob was spraying the paint, and Bob just lost it and hit him with a full coat. :Lol:
(no disrespect to any or all members of the Ment family was intended) :cheers:
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I think maybe the figure was trying to tell Bucket Bob his name was Phil A. Ment while Bob was spraying the paint, and Bob just lost it and hit him with a full coat. :Lol:
(no disrespect to any or all members of the Ment family was intended) :cheers:
Wow. Just what color IS the sky in there, Jeff?? :Jester: :lolb: I thought I was pretty good at puns, you are off the chart! :praise2:
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Boy, the weather here in Rochester NY really DOES change fast! An hour ago it was 50 degrees F, a front has moved through and its below freezing and snowing hard! The lawn is starting to cover, it had started to green a bit the last few days. Glad I was able to get the Miata out for a ride at lunch today, its hiding from salt/snow in its garage again now. Saturday its going back up to the 60s again...
:shrug:
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Chris - Yep same roller coaster weather here in Ontario. Depending on road salt reserves, we either get 3/4" of salt after 1/2" of fluffy snow, or zero salt on top of glare ice. Perfect weather for hiding in the workshop / models table. :paranoia: :Lol: My old truck is always rarin to go no matter what the weather but me - not so much.
Kim - the sky colour depends on the meds du jour..... :shrug: :Lol: Just kidding - I stay away from that kind of stuff, my brain is plenty warped without it. I've had a lot of bad pun practice hanging out here on the forum in Chris' threads! :cheers:
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:ROFL:
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Beautiful piece of work Chris! :praise2:
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Beautiful piece of work Chris! :praise2:
Thanks Dave! :cheers:
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Catching up on progress from yesterday and this morning, the connector flanges for the crankshaft were all drilled, and nuts/bolts run into the center three. The two flanges to the left/below the handwheel are the ones for the ends of the shaft, where the prop shaft and the turning engine would connect. To make it easier to turn the shaft for lapping the bearings in, I am going to use this handwheel, left over from work several years ago. The parts to the left of the wheel in the picture are one of the end flanges bolted to an adapter with a post that will go into the handwheel and held by the set screws in its hub. That wheel will stick out beyond the end of the base plate and let me turn the shaft with the lapping paste in the bearings.
(https://i.postimg.cc/B6ypXkKj/IMG-3233.jpg)
This was done while the crank webs were loctited to the crank pins and set in the various vices to cure up, with pieces of 3/4" roundbar in the lower holes to ensure alignment. Only the crankpin joints were loctited at this stage!
(https://i.postimg.cc/y8BPgFky/IMG-3234.jpg)
This morning I started drilling for the taper pins. First drilled with a size equal to the small end of the pins:
(https://i.postimg.cc/bwTRQsnc/IMG-3235.jpg)
That removed the bulk of the material from the holes, then switched to a tapered drill. Doing it two steps reduces the load on the taper drill and makes it last longer, its a lot more expensive than a standard straight drill. The taper drill has little points/notches up the flutes so it acts more like a roughing mill cutter. The end of the taper drill is smaller than the end of the pins, so the holes have to be about .2" deeper than the length of the pins. In this picture, I've set one of the pins in the hole on the left.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Y0W3gR6b/IMG-3237.jpg)
Here the pins have been installed - a drop of loctite retaining compound just for good measure (not sure if it helps, but can't hurt) and the pins tapped into the holes. They will be trimmed off flush later. Also, after these initial pins are done I'm going to drill/install another set horizontally through the side of the webs at the level of the pins, over to the side where the webs flare out. May not be needed, but for such a large crankshaft with so many webs its belts/suspenders. Same will be done at the crankshaft end later.
(https://i.postimg.cc/28nGSH85/IMG-3238.jpg)
After all the pins are in at the crank pin ends, I'll mill off the protruding ends of the crankpins flush with the tapered face of the webs.
Couldn't resist setting one in position on the frame...
(https://i.postimg.cc/kM0w9rCZ/IMG-3239.jpg)
So far I have two sets done to this stage, two to go. I am almost out of taper pins - the fuller bag of them I have turned out to be shorter ones, so last night I ordered more longer ones, which will be here tomorrow afternoon.
A good start, another couple days and the webs can be assembled onto the shaft! :cheers:
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Nice! Haze Gray and Underway!
Todd
Have not heard that phrase before, I like it!
:cheers:
Yeah, that's what we said every time we left port.
Excellent work! The crank shaft is coming along nicely.
Todd
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Those cranks are going to look really nice in the engine, Crhis. Great progress! :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
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The crank pins have all been taper drilled for the second set of taper pins, but I am out of taper pins. The new batch is out for delivery, will have them this afternoon. Then I can get the crank pins pinned (theres a tongue twister in there somewhere) and then will start milling off the ends of the crank pins flush with the outside of the webs. After that, can start installing all the flanges and webs onto the main shaft!
(https://i.postimg.cc/bJvvrNXR/IMG-3240.jpg)
I need to have the engine bed up off the table soon to let the webs rotate around (they will protrude down through the floor plate as they rotate, so it was time to install the bed onto the display base. I'll probably put some painters tape down inside the wells to keep the grit/oil from lapping from making too much of a mess of them.
(https://i.postimg.cc/SstxMFkb/IMG-3242.jpg)
So, things are stalled for a few hours till the UPS truck makes it around to my neighborhood...
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Chris, the whole base is absolutely amazing.
I'm looking forward to the complete crankshaft.
is that on the right Dwayne Johnson..........
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While waiting for the taper pins to arrive, I gave the shop elves some little paintbrushes and some paint and they got Rocky the sailorman looking better:
(https://i.postimg.cc/QMMtxkWz/IMG-3243.jpg)
Michael - you are right - I found the figure for him on Prusa's website in their model section, someone had done it from the Jumangi-2 movie. I scaled it to be the right size for this model. Its tough to find cad models of general worker looking people, there are LOTS of them for movie monsters and superheroes. This will do nicely for showing the scale on this engine. He looks strong enough to help lift the bearing caps into place...
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The base is beautiful, Chris! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn:
And 20:1 man looks much better in color than solid gray.
Kim
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did you paint it again quickly? :cartwheel:
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did you paint it again quickly? :cartwheel:
I was painting it when you were typing your message I think! The grey color was the raw color of the filament I used to print it, Prusa's Galaxy Silver PLA. It was just coincidence that it looked like the grey paint on the engine bed, I had not painted him that color. I have a bunch of Liquitex acrylic artists paint that I use on wood carvings, it dries pretty quick, and you can use a hair drier to set it even faster since the paint is water based acrylic. A fine brush and about 10 minutes and he was painted. The eyeballs got a dot from a ball point pen.
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I was looking over the plans again, double checking the orientation of the crank webs before attaching them to the main crankshaft (kind of an important detail), and noticed something that I had missed till now. :wallbang:
I had been thinking that the cranks were on 90 degree spacings since it was a four cylinder engine. But no, that is not what they did. They kept the normal three-cylinder triple expansion spacings of 120 degrees if I am reading the plan correctly! Whoops! Here is a snippet from the general arrangements drawing, labelled for the HP, IP, LP1, LP2 cylinders (right to left), and below a diagram of the cranks as looking from the HP end (right hand end in the plan view). The plans do not have a separate plan view for the crankshaft.
(https://i.postimg.cc/fLVTNz0S/Crankshaft-Orientation.jpg)
Up till now, I think I had seen the 180 degree seperation between the LP1/LP2 cranks, and just assumed it was 90 degrees all round. But, as you can see by looking closely at the two cranks at the right hand end, they are each at angles from vertical, and not horizontal. They kept the two low pressure pistons opposite from each other, likely for balance I am guessing. In a normal 3 cylinder triple expansion the LP cylinder would be about twice the diameter and equally spaced from the other two. In this orientation, with the two opposing each other, they are still drawing on the steam from the IP cylinder exhaust at the same time, so usage is same as a three cylinder version would be in both timing and volume.
Glad I spotted this one in time! :hammerbash:
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Good catch! I learned something today about these engines, I too had assumed 90 / 180 degree timing. re the diagram, peace! to you too. :Lol: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Wow! Glad you saw that now and not after you'd fitted up the whole 25' crankshaft! :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
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I COULD have made it work the 90 degree way, but then either I or someone else would have spotted the goof, and I'd have been pretty upset. Much better this way!
The bags of taper pins (tiny bags in a big box) arrived this afternoon, and the rest of the pins are installed in the crank pins. I'll let the loctite set up overnight, and trim them off flush tomorrow, plus trim the ends of the crank pins that stick out from the webs. Then I can look to assembling the entire crankshaft. That will probably take several sessions, think I'll attach one set of the webs, let that set up, then work my way down the length using the engine bed as a spacer guide. I'll have to work out a set of guide blocks for setting the angles between the webs. The plans do not show a detail view of the eccentrics for the valves, but they do show how the eccentric that drives the pump at the LP end is built, as two halves with bolts holding it together inside the follower ring. It appears that it is the same as the eccentrics on the valves, so I am going to make them all the same way. That means I can make and install them later, they don't have to be made now and assembled at the same time as the webs. The bolting flanges between the sections DO need to be installed with the webs though. Lots to keep track of, and I go back to the original plans a lot - I just wish they had more details of each part like the plans for the Ward pumping engine did - that set had enough detail for the pattern makers to make all the cores/molds for all the parts.
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As I see it on the drawing the center of the rod bearings of the HP and IP rods are in line with the center of the crankshaft. So that would make it a 90 degree crankshaft. The rods are on an angle to the center of the cylinder. So what am I missing?
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I agree with RJH. The throws look square on, as well as the crankpins being at the same level as the main journals. The rod big ends are at an angle as would be expected for that position.
-Doug
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Ohhhh, now I see it. I think you are right Doug/RJH. The crank itself is in line horizontally, what I was looking at and what fooled me was the top/bottom of the big end, which at crank-horizontal position WOULD be tilted to get back in line with the crosshead. Duh! :hammerbash:
The angled sections at the top/bottom of the crank webs are the biggest clue - they show that the HP crankpin is straight away from the viewer, and the IP crankpin is towards the viewer. So, all cranks are at 90 degrees, in this orientation, as viewed from the HP end of the crankshaft:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Jn9q3Qw6/Crankshaft-Orientation-corrected.jpg)
Thanks very much for looking so closely and correcting my interpretation of the drawing! I had it right when I first drew the CAD model, and had a bit of a brain fart earlier today when I looked back at the builder drawings again.
Thanks!! :NotWorthy: :ThumbsUp: :Love:
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Not just tagging along, but I had the Hp bigend at 180 degrees to the IP bigend & couldn't understand that 85 degree?! as shown... Derek
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If there's no reservoir between the HP and IP cylinders, then you'd expect the valve timing to require the exhaust of the HP and the inlet of the IP were open at the same time. So it might be worth a look at this to see if it informs the crank spacings.
Also, with your 90 degree diagram, you'd expect the engine to run equally well in either direction - but with the other arrangement the exhaust-to-inlet exchange would behave very differently in reverse.
Wilf
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There is no reservoir tank between cylinders, but the pipes between are very large diameter and long which does the same thing. For starting up, if the HP and IP are at top/bottom ends, a shot of extra steam into the LP manifold would push both LP pistons since both would be at mid stroke.
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The crankpins have all been trimmed off flush with the sides of the webs
(https://i.postimg.cc/65CnCsfn/IMG-3245.jpg)
and with the crank orientations all figured out, I've started the actual assembly process. The LP1 and LP2 cranks and the flange between them have been loctited in place and are setting up before taper pinning them. The loctite was run in from the inside edges of the web and spread around to keep any excess from getting onto the bearings and locking things up. After these two are set up and pinned I'll do the same with the rest of the parts. I'll get it all assembled and lapped, then cut out the short sections of the main bar between the webs.
(https://i.postimg.cc/CxYDNvct/IMG-3246.jpg)
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Looking great, Chris! You do good work! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn:
A little crankshaft whiplash there, eh? :) But I'm glad you got it figured out!
How did you set and maintain the spacing between the cranks and the bushings while Loktiting them in place? Did you use little shims? Or just eyeball it?
Kim
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Looking great, Chris! You do good work! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn:
A little crankshaft whiplash there, eh? :) But I'm glad you got it figured out!
How did you set and maintain the spacing between the cranks and the bushings while Loktiting them in place? Did you use little shims? Or just eyeball it?
Kim
I used the engine bed and bushings itself for spacing. Put the bare shaft in and made guide marks. Slid the web assembly onto the shaft and centered on those marks. Ran some loctite on the shaft inside the webs and rotated the web around and back and forth a little to spread it into the joint, but not so far to come out the outer edges of the web. Then set the shaft into the bearings for final alignment. Sent the elves in with wads of tissue to wipe off the excess between the webs on the shaft. That area will be cut away anyway so no problem if there is any small amount of residue.
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Those crankshaft angles were a neat little 'Gotcha' Glad you spotted it in time :) Looking great :praise2:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
It is taking shape! looks good.
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Thanks guys! Glad we were able to sort it out in time!
I've got the first two web sets with one taper pin in each leg, third crank has been loctited and is curing. Probably will have all four pinned tomorrow and ready to lap the bearings on Monday. :cheers:
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Awesome work Dog……. :Love:
:cheers:
Don
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Thanks Don! :cheers:
Working away on getting the crank webs assembled onto the main shaft, first pins are drilled/installed, bunch more to go...
(https://i.postimg.cc/FsRcnPcn/IMG-3247.jpg)
The last pair has been loctited in place, and set up overnight. Here is a short clip of it turning using the handwheel I put on the end:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-Gnqb6vrUE
Today will get back to drilling and installing the rest of the taper pins...
Also, Rocky was jealous of the hats that the shop elves had, so he made one out of an endcap from a tube a drill came in:
(https://i.postimg.cc/PrRZGmQf/IMG-3250.jpg)
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Between session of drilling taper pins holes, I decided to weigh the parts - The engine bed with display base is 13.6 pounds, the crankshaft adds another 5 pounds but that will get a little lighter when the main shaft sections between the webs are cut out.
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Hmm.. 18+ pounds already, and without cylinders, pistons, rods, valve gear, uprights, what have you... This will be a big engine, eh? :Lol:
The crankshaft sure looks the business going round and round there, Chris! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
And Rocky looks quite dapper in his new hat!
Kim
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Hmm.. 18+ pounds already, and without cylinders, pistons, rods, valve gear, uprights, what have you... This will be a big engine, eh? :Lol:
The crankshaft sure looks the business going round and round there, Chris! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
And Rocky looks quite dapper in his new hat!
Kim
Yeah, a little over a foot tall plus the display base. I'm figuring about 50 pounds when done. With the long stroke and large pistons, hoping it will tick over nice and slow too, except when at flank speed!
:cheers:
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Best start feeding up those elves! I don't know what you have in mind for a next project, but they just seem to keep getting bigger! :lolb:
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Best start feeding up those elves! I don't know what you have in mind for a next project, but they just seem to keep getting bigger! :lolb:
Gotta be careful, I don't want to have to deal with shop elves with Roid Rage. :Jester: If they get too big and strong, I'll find myself tossed out on the lawn!
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For dealing with Roid Rage in shop gnomes I usually try Lever Rage, ie shut the water and food off, and failing that, a 5 foot wrecking bar....... :Lol:
Great to see the crank rotating! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Chris........
With so much surface area of the crankshaft itself, for an anti-corrosion thought, would you consider a chemical 'bluing' [no heat] treatment?
Derek
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Chris........
With so much surface area of the crankshaft itself, for an anti-corrosion thought, would you consider a chemical 'bluing' [no heat] treatment?
Derek
Hi Derek,
Shouldn't be needed since the shaft and the webs are all stainless steel.
Chris
:cheers:
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Missed that from weeks ago Chris :facepalm: .......... Derek
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This morning been lapping the bearings and crank, messy job but working well. Its moving a lot more freely now. I put down some masking tape below the bearings first to keep the slurry generated from getting all over everything:
(https://i.postimg.cc/5tjV04nb/IMG-3251.jpg)
After a couple rounds and a lot of cranking the crankshaft back and forth using the handwheel I rigged up on the end, I think its ready. It wont free spin as well as it would with ball bearing races, but it is good for bronze bearings.
Next up is to take the plunge and cut away the sections of the main shaft between the webs! Always a little nervous doing that but it should all be good. Every joint has two taper pins at right angles to each other plus the loctite retaining compound. I'm figuring I'll use a hacksaw up at the big vise, holding the webs with the shaft parallel to the jaws. That way the vise jaws will keep the saw from dropping through at the end of the cut and hitting the crankpin. I'll need to follow that up with trimming the shaft back flush with the web insides.
Sounds a lot like work, better go get lunch first!
:cheers:
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Hi Chris, I'm also very curious how the crankshaft behaves when you separate the pieces. Does the concentricity intact?
I had made the experience with me that the concentricity is lost.
But I think with this strong wave it will be fine.
Michael :cheers:
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Eat a good hearty lunch, Chris! Something that'll stick to your ribs! You'll need it for all this work :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Kim
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Hi Michael,
I was worried about that too, especially after so much work on it so far. But, it all appears to be still straight. Just finished cutting out the sections between the webs, and it still runs true.
:cartwheel: :whoohoo:
The shop elves are checking things, but they seem happy with it.
(https://i.postimg.cc/657by7NH/IMG-3252.jpg)
Next time I'll set up on the mill and start trimming the cut ends flush with the inside edges of the webs. I'll put supports under the ends so its not hanging out too far and stressing the joints. To trim the angled parts I will... um, more thoughts as typing... yeah, that would work...
Okay, tipping the crankshaft up to do the angled portions inside the webs would be difficult in the mill vise. But, if I clamp the webs down flat on the rotary table tooling plate, I can turn the shaft to line up the angled section with one of the mill axis' and trim them that way.
Good task for tomorrow! :cheers:
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Eat a good hearty lunch, Chris! Something that'll stick to your ribs! You'll need it for all this work :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Kim
Uuurrp! Yes, it did help!
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This is looking so amazing, Chris!
Todd
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good work 👍, another step further.
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Thanks guys!
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Great to see the Inspection Department hard at it! :Lol:
Like the repetitious trickery rotary table idea for trimming the inner webs. :cheers:
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Hi Michael,
I was worried about that too, especially after so much work on it so far. But, it all appears to be still straight. Just finished cutting out the sections between the webs, and it still runs true.
:cartwheel: :whoohoo:
The shop elves are checking things, but they seem happy with it.
(https://i.postimg.cc/657by7NH/IMG-3252.jpg)
Next time I'll set up on the mill and start trimming the cut ends flush with the inside edges of the webs. I'll put supports under the ends so its not hanging out too far and stressing the joints. To trim the angled parts I will... um, more thoughts as typing... yeah, that would work...
Okay, tipping the crankshaft up to do the angled portions inside the webs would be difficult in the mill vise. But, if I clamp the webs down flat on the rotary table tooling plate, I can turn the shaft to line up the angled section with one of the mill axis' and trim them that way.
Good task for tomorrow! :cheers:
You need to the movie sandpebbles.....
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Hi Michael,
I was worried about that too, especially after so much work on it so far. But, it all appears to be still straight. Just finished cutting out the sections between the webs, and it still runs true.
:cartwheel: :whoohoo:
The shop elves are checking things, but they seem happy with it.
(https://i.postimg.cc/657by7NH/IMG-3252.jpg)
Next time I'll set up on the mill and start trimming the cut ends flush with the inside edges of the webs. I'll put supports under the ends so its not hanging out too far and stressing the joints. To trim the angled parts I will... um, more thoughts as typing... yeah, that would work...
Okay, tipping the crankshaft up to do the angled portions inside the webs would be difficult in the mill vise. But, if I clamp the webs down flat on the rotary table tooling plate, I can turn the shaft to line up the angled section with one of the mill axis' and trim them that way.
Good task for tomorrow! :cheers:
You need to the movie sandpebbles.....
I've watched it, don't think the elves have seen it yet! :LittleDevil:
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Major progress on the crankshaft over the last day. The rotary table setup for holding it to trim off the ends inside the webs worked out perfectly. The reach was too far for a small end mill cutter, so each section was cut from both sides. I could have used a larger cutter, but for fine trimming I like the small ones since there is less chance of chatter and catching with the closer flutes.
(https://i.postimg.cc/8kxrqf9G/IMG-3254.jpg)
Closer look at what is being trimmed back - each side where the main shaft was cut needs two sets of cuts, one for the parallel faces, another for the angled faces
(https://i.postimg.cc/Qx5WsxZT/IMG-3255.jpg)
Cutting on the end webs made the part stick way out down the length of the mill table, so I put the tooling plate out there and used a small screw jack to support it
(https://i.postimg.cc/kgmR537h/IMG-3258.jpg)
At this point the crankshaft itself is done! :cartwheel: It was reassembled into the engine bed, with some copper/graphite grease in the bearings. I ran in the studs all round too.
(https://i.postimg.cc/nhGjjRzV/IMG-3259.jpg)
A closer look at the one end. The screw heads sticking up in the flat plates in the foreground are just temporary to hold the plates till the vertical cylinder frames are made.
(https://i.postimg.cc/DzfWqrJr/IMG-3260.jpg)
And to prove it all goes roundy round...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndDEaFbm_sg
:whoohoo:
Good place to sit and rest on my laurels for the afternoon while thinking which parts to tackle next. Several possibilities...- the pump at the end of the frame
- eccentrics/straps for each cylinder
- con rod big ends
- vertical cylinder frames (inboard side)
- vertical cylinder round supports (outboard side)
Leaning towards the eccentrics and straps, excluding the arms up tot he reverse links which bolt on. They would complete the look of the crankshaft. Or the cylinder frames, they are the next big item, all four the same even though the cylinders are three different sizes, they bolt to same pattern on top of the frames. Hmmm, the pump would be a nice complete assembly though its eccentric is very similar (just larger diameter) to the valve eccentrics so it could share setups with them...
:thinking:
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It looks absolutely gorgeous!
You placed the crankshaft perfectly in her bed.
I would do the eccentrics next. After that, you no longer need to remove the crankshaft. Or are the eccentrics divided and can be mounted later. I could imagine it like that on the original engine.
Michael 🍻
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Wonderful, and I thought I was doing well with my Triple's crankshaft until I saw this...!
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It looks absolutely gorgeous!
You placed the crankshaft perfectly in her bed.
I would do the eccentrics next. After that, you no longer need to remove the crankshaft. Or are the eccentrics divided and can be mounted later. I could imagine it like that on the original engine.
Michael 🍻
The eccentrics are split and bolt on around the shaft, so they can go on at any time plus that makes them adjustable without any visible set screws. Fortunately the view of the pump eccentric on the original plans shows the split and the bolts so I will assume the same thing for the valve eccentrics.
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Wonderful, and I thought I was doing well with my Triple's crankshaft until I saw this...!
We can BOTH be doing well!! :)
This is the bigest crankshaft that I have ever attempted, very happy with the results. Can't imagine doing one this size from a single bar without a much larger lathe.
:cheers:
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Oh, and I forgot to mention, when I assembled the caps on I put in some rectangles of thin shim stock between the two screws at each end so that I could tighten the screws down on the cap without clamping on the shaft. The thickness was determined by gently snugging down the screws till it restricted the spinning, then measuring the gap. Worked out to 20 thousandths.
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Excellent! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
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There were the split eccentric discs which were screwed and others were wedged.
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The plans don't have a good view of the valve eccentrics, but they show enough for me to conclude that they are built the same way as the pump eccentric, which is shown here in the original plans:
(https://i.postimg.cc/bwLtsCC0/Eccentric-Snippet.jpg)
The view is a little hard to decipher here, partly since I had to scale the scan down to fit on the forum, partly since the view shows both the eccentric and the strap around it plus other shafts which cross over the eccentric to connect to the pump plungers at both sides. So, I've made this version of the drawing with my own red and green lines to highlight some things:
(https://i.postimg.cc/W43JrGCB/Eccentric-Snippet1.jpg)
The green is the outline and field of the eccentric disc overall (ignoring things like the keyway and the cutouts for now). The red are the bolts that clamp it all down around the crankshaft, which is the black shadeded circle in the center. There is a vertical green line through the bolts that shows where the split is in the eccentric disc. Other plan views show just enough that I can tell the valve eccentrics look the same, just slightly different diameters to them.
It looks like the sizes work out to where I can use flat bar I have on hand to make the discs from, some 1/2" wide for the smaller half, and 1" wide for the larger half (well, half is a relative term here, may I should say larger/smaller sides or sections). What I can do is start by drilling for the bolt holes to connect the two sides, then start shaping them down. These are not all that different from the ones on the Sabino engine, which were also split like this, except the Sabino used set screws rather than a keyway. For this engine I'd rather keep the eccentrics adjustable rather than keyed, getting all four cylinders timed with keys would be do-able but complex to plan out.
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Congratulations on completing the crankshaft, Chris! That is quite the milestone :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
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Thanks Kim! Its so great to be able to see something move finally, bit more of an engine and less of a fancy bracket!
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You have accomplished and made more parts with just the base and crankshaft than most of us would do in an entire project. Not only that, but it all fits, turns, and looks good! My hat is truly off to you and I look forward to the rest of the build. :cheers: :DrinkPint: :cheers:
Tom
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I can only agree with Kim and Tom + be glad that you are happy with the result so far Chris :praise2:
Really great result :cheers: :popcorn:
Per
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Great milestone Chris! the video of the rotating crank was great. :cheers: :cartwheel:
Look forward to the eccentrics, since I'm not eccentric myself at all. :paranoia:
(if you ever do try making a crank like this from a single bar, I sure hope the bar has a good bartender! :cheers: :DrinkPint:) :Lol:
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Chris - that crankshaft and base assembly is magnificent !! Congratulations.
John
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Dog that us just awesome. Your talents are inspirational…… :Love:
:drinking-41:
Do
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Thanks very much guys! I keep going back to the shop to spin the crankshaft and admire it before moving on to the next parts.
:cheers:
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While I was on the computer checking some things on the CAD model and plotting out how to make the eccentrics, the shop elves took some bar stock to the bandsaw and cut out the blanks:
(https://i.postimg.cc/28LGLBg9/IMG-3263.jpg)
Then they made the mistake of making fun of Rocky's hat...
(https://i.postimg.cc/jSVXHSbx/IMG-3264.jpg)
:facepalm2:
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Don't cross Rocky! He may only be 20:1, but he packs a punch! :Lol:
Kim
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Late to comment....been busy here for a few weeks with outside cleanup. But the base and crankshaft look absolutely fabulous, Chris! As expected, of course! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
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Oh oh! cleanup on aisle 2.....
Kim's right- Rocky's got a great arm. Ix-nay on the at-hay omments-cay I guess! :Lol:
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Started in on the eccentric blanks today, drilling for the screws to hold the two halves together. All were drilled in one setup on the mill to ensure the holes would line up properly. The work stop is very handy, speeds things up a lot more than aligning the parts on the vise jaw end with a straightedge, which is how I used to do it. Should have made this years ago...
(https://i.postimg.cc/L5YpFz2f/IMG-3265.jpg)
I took a short break, and when I came back the shop elves were there to watch the work with their big tub of popcorn. :popcorn: They seem to like the flavor that cutting oil and swarf adds to it. :shrug:
(https://i.postimg.cc/50kVrPdb/IMG-3266.jpg)
All the pieces have been drilled for the screws, ready to tap the holes in the larger halves. The smaller halves were counterdrilled larger to sink in the screw heads.
(https://i.postimg.cc/vBmyXJK0/IMG-3267.jpg)
This afternoon I'll start the tapping...
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The stack of eccentric blanks all tapped and screwed together:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Ls5gw8nP/IMG-3268.jpg)
Next will be to make the holding jig for turning the outside, boring the offset shaft holes, and milling in the openings (not necessarily in that order)
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I'm quite sure that most of us who embark on complex projects could be described as eccentric!
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Are the eccentrics all right handed ones Chris? (asking fer a friend) :Lol:
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Are the eccentrics all right handed ones Chris? (asking fer a friend) :Lol:
They are all right (there on the table) :Jester:
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:Lol:
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Hi Michael,
I was worried about that too, especially after so much work on it so far. But, it all appears to be still straight. Just finished cutting out the sections between the webs, and it still runs true.
:cartwheel: :whoohoo:
The shop elves are checking things, but they seem happy with it.
(https://i.postimg.cc/657by7NH/IMG-3252.jpg)
Next time I'll set up on the mill and start trimming the cut ends flush with the inside edges of the webs. I'll put supports under the ends so its not hanging out too far and stressing the joints. To trim the angled parts I will... um, more thoughts as typing... yeah, that would work...
Okay, tipping the crankshaft up to do the angled portions inside the webs would be difficult in the mill vise. But, if I clamp the webs down flat on the rotary table tooling plate, I can turn the shaft to line up the angled section with one of the mill axis' and trim them that way.
Good task for tomorrow! :cheers:
You need to the movie sandpebbles.....
I've watched it, don't think the elves have seen it yet! :LittleDevil:
Looks like the elves will be getting a back massage ?? !!!
:Lol: :Lol:
Willy.
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This morning got set up to turn/bore the eccentrics. First up was to make the holding jig. Centered up a leftover disc of steel in the 4-jaw, drilled/tapped a 5-40 hole in the center, and moved over to the mill to center it on the rotary table:
(https://i.postimg.cc/fyLkVw9s/IMG-3269.jpg)
With the handwheels zeroed at that position, then offset and drilled the mounting holes for the eccentric blanks. I didn't need this many of the outer holes, but they will double as stop positions when milling the openings in the discs. Two sets of holes, offset from each other by the offset to bore the eccentric at.
(https://i.postimg.cc/nL4X5SJy/IMG-3270.jpg)
Then started drilling the same pattern in the blanks.
(https://i.postimg.cc/KzQRcK4Q/IMG-3271.jpg)
Here is the first one mounted up on the holder to turn the OD down.
(https://i.postimg.cc/nznXtKVC/IMG-3272.jpg)
So, one blank drilled, 8 more to go, then will start turning the discs down. Just in case there is any movement on the blanks as the outside is turned and the offset hole bored, I'll take the first one down close to OD and bore the hole close to size, and check it. If it does warp from taking material off one side, that will let me take final cuts after the movement.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Looking good Chris! Love the way you make your jigs and I can't wait to see how it comes into play (I know you said, but I think I'll understand it better when I see it in action). :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
And you're still doing a LOT of parts - I thought you said you were getting close to being done with the 8x parts! :o
Kim
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Looking good Chris! Love the way you make your jigs and I can't wait to see how it comes into play (I know you said, but I think I'll understand it better when I see it in action). :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
And you're still doing a LOT of parts - I thought you said you were getting close to being done with the 8x parts! :o
Kim
This is CLOSE to done with 8x parts... Just not THERE yet! Still 8 sets of eccentrics, straps. After that there are mostly 4 of everything - con rods, vertical frames, cylinders, pistons... Each with a bazillion bolts, but hey. :Jester:
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All 8 are drilled, so turning the OD on the lathe has started. Here, one is turned down close to final OD, and is laying on the cross slide in the middle of the picture. Next one is on the fixture to the left/top, rest of the stack to the right. The one that is turned also has the location for the shaft hole sketched on so you can see where this is going. The offset is 1/4", so when the blanks are bolted up to the second sets of holes on the jig, the location for the shaft hole will be centered on the lathe.
(https://i.postimg.cc/t4NcRPFL/IMG-3273.jpg)
I'm going to rough them all down close to final OD, then bore the shaft hole and mill in the openings, then take the outside to final OD and put in the steps either side of the rim for the strap to ride on.
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always a good lesson in the process and methods!!!
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always a good lesson in the process and methods!!!
There are multiple ways to do this when making one eccentric, but for making 8 or 9 the same size, it seemed better to take the time to make the jig and assembly line the cuts. For one or two I'd usually just offset the parts in the 4-jaw chuck. Could also be done with the mill. This way I just have to do each setup once then pump the parts through at the same handwheel positions.
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All of the eccentric blanks have been turned down to rough OD, and have started chain drilling for the openings...
(https://i.postimg.cc/854Xdr1q/IMG-3275.jpg)
After the drilling has been completed, I'll use a small end mill to connect the dots (well, holes are un-dots?) and finish the shaping on the openings. The one in the picture has the shape of the openings sketched on - the outer arc is concentric with the OD, the inner arc will be concentric with the shaft opening, and a straight sided piece connects the outer rim down to the inner in the center.
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Very nice! Now just 7 more times :LittleDevil:
Kim
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Very nice! Now just 7 more times :LittleDevil:
Kim
Actually 8 more. There is one eccentric at the end of the shaft to drive the pump too.
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Just FYI Kim, my shop gnomes left me a note saying that they calculate The Ohio engine Chris is building will have a total of 128,334 parts. They want more gnome rations, just thinking about all the work by Chris's shop elves is makin them hungry! :Lol:
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Just FYI Kim, my shop gnomes left me a note saying that they calculate The Ohio engine Chris is building will have a total of 128,334 parts. They want more gnome rations, just thinking about all the work by Chris's shop elves is makin them hungry! :Lol:
:noidea:
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I got all the outer holes chain drilled, then moved the first part over to the other set of holes to drill a couple more on each side, along the inner edge. But, turned out there was only room for one hole at the inner corner, any more along the other edge would just intersect with existing holes, so I just did all the corner ones.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ydMZp7Vs/IMG-3276.jpg)
Then started the milling to connect the holes. With the part back on the first set of screw positions, each side was milled through, taking a series of cuts to work my way down the full depth. These are just the roughing cuts, I'll come back after to do the finish cuts to true up the outer edge.
(https://i.postimg.cc/4d7c1YRW/IMG-3278.jpg)
Here I've gotten the first two to that stage, 7 more to go...
(https://i.postimg.cc/x8LbWBCH/IMG-3279.jpg)
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That's a stack of pucks to get hollowed out! Enjoying the show! :popcorn: :popcorn:
Now I See how you're using the jig - it's truly a multi-use jig!
Kim
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I've found that chain drilling with a carbide endmill allows the holes to overlap as the tool won't deflect. You could then finish the outer edges at the same time without changing tools.
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I've found that chain drilling with a carbide endmill allows the holes to overlap as the tool won't deflect. You could then finish the outer edges at the same time without changing tools.
I'll have to try that!
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I wonder how the weight of the swarf vs the weight on the finshed model compares :thinking: :headscratch:
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I wonder how the weight of the swarf vs the weight on the finshed model compares :thinking: :headscratch:
Not too bad so far since the engine bed was made from bar stock that was close to the finished sizes. When I get to the vertical frames with their tapers, and the cylinders, the ratio will be going up.
-
Gotten a lot of progress made on the eccentrics. All now have the openings milled in
(https://i.postimg.cc/t4rjFjGg/IMG-3280.jpg)
Then it was time to start drilling/boring out the hole for the crankshaft. Milling the openings left enough material to clamp it in with a pair of screws, but I was concerned that the part would twist during the boring operation. So, I dug through the scrap boxes and found this brass ring that was offcut from some other model - it only needed a light cut on the inside to get the diameter to match the eccentric blanks. It was drilled/screwed to the eccentric jig, two screws on the side opposite the ones holding the part to the jig. That looks odd, but it works to hold the part in place better.
(https://i.postimg.cc/4dcRCH7K/IMG-3283.jpg)
Got the first eccentric bored out to be a close fit on the shaft
(https://i.postimg.cc/Zq2zDxRt/IMG-3284.jpg)
and could not resist bolting it onto the shaft on the model to see how it looks
(https://i.postimg.cc/3wdHBc3F/IMG-3285.jpg)
Still need to get the other eight bored like this one, then I can do the final operations: taking the eccentrics to final OD with shoulders either side, and drilling/tapping a hole down through the 'post' left between the openings. That will take a small set screw that will hold the eccentric in position while allowing for timing adjustments.
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That's looking the part Chris! I love what you're doing with that!
Dave
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That's looking the part Chris! I love what you're doing with that!
Dave
Thanks Dave! :cheers:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Really nice looking eccentrics, Chris! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Kim
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Chris.....
Remembering the two LP cylinders function in unison, and I am sure you have a timing sequence, however is the final timing a result of some trial & error?
Do the original Drawings suggest some form of radial djustment via a moveable screw for each of the eccentrics, as opposed to a final locking screw?
Derek
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Chris.....
Remembering the two LP cylinders function in unison, and I am sure you have a timing sequence, however is the final timing a result of some trial & error?
Do the original Drawings suggest some form of radial djustment via a moveable screw for each of the eccentrics, as opposed to a final locking screw?
Derek
Hi Derek,
The plans for this engine are no where near as detailed as the ones I got for the Ward pumping engine, which had very detailed timing diagrams. The Ward plans had several hundred sheets. For this one there are 8 sheets total. There is nothing on timing, lap, lead, etc. The original did use keys on the pump eccentric but I don't see any detail on the valve eccentrics. So, I am keeping my options open by using the set screw inside the eccentrics. On the Sabino engine I could see the two set screws inside the eccentric openings, on this engine I am winging it.
Chris
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Nice Excentric ;) :ThumbsUp:
I don't see any outside Groove - so what keeps the 'Follower' in place sideways ...?
Per
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Nice Excentric ;) :ThumbsUp:
I don't see any outside Groove - so what keeps the 'Follower' in place sideways ...?
Per
I haven't turned the outside to final size or added the shoulders yet. There will be shoulders turned into the outer corners to narrow the rim, and the followers will have a recess in the center to fit over them. I'll be turning the outside diameters next, after finishing the bore for the shaft.
:cheers:
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With all the openings milled in and the shaft holes bored yesterday, today I could start in on turning the outside diameter of the eccentrics. With them back centered on the jig, and a stepped plug in the bored holes plus a pair of screws around the bar in the center, the outsides were turned to size
(https://i.postimg.cc/qvhVd177/IMG-3287.jpg)
and the shoulders cut in with a parting tool
(https://i.postimg.cc/BnrWZ28B/IMG-3290.jpg)
to leave the center ridge that the eccentric strap will ride on. The strap will have a matching recess in the center of its bore.
(https://i.postimg.cc/tCmQfKpf/IMG-3289.jpg)
First couple up to this stage, will finish the rest of them later. It might be getting warm enough to go spend some time outside!
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Excellent looking eccentrics!
I'm considering using your version for my current project. And luckily I only need one of them. Or does the crankshaft happen to have a diameter of 17 millimeters! Then I would try to bribe one of your workshop elves.........
Michael
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Excellent looking eccentrics!
I'm considering using your version for my current project. And luckily I only need one of them. Or does the crankshaft happen to have a diameter of 17 millimeters! Then I would try to bribe one of your workshop elves.........
Michael
I'm safe, the crankshaft on mine is a little over 19mm!
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oh pity
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oh pity
Don't let my shop elves lie to you and claim they are a 'nominal 17mm' just to trick you out of some nice German beer! :Lol:
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Got the last of the shaping done on the eccentrics, now just need to drill/tap the holes for the set screws. I did run into one odd thing - on the second to last one, the parting tool stopped cutting, burnt the end, and notched itself around the side of the eccentric. I figured it had just gone dull and overheated, so I ground it back to fresh metal and moved on. However, when I went back to that one edge where it had failed, after cutting the next one fine, it did the exact same thing. There was one spot on the edge of the part that discolored too, and from checking with a file it appears that there was a hard spot in the metal, like a hard spot in a casting. Must have been a bit of something else in the post when they extruded this piece. Never had that happen before on bar stock, though this spot was on the outer surface of the bar. I was able to switch to a pointy ended carbide insert and get through that spot okay so the part is good.
Anyway, here is the pile of eccentrics so far, just waiting for the set screw holes.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sDcWYJPw/IMG-3291.jpg)
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Found various oddities and hard spots in mild steel bar and other materials over the years. The strangest one was a hard steel ball (probably ex-bearing) in a brass bar. A close second would be the broken carbide turning insert embedded in a HRS bar. I think it depends how well the mills in China and India sort the scrap that goes into the mild steel melts. Maybe someone operating the crusher in the scrapyard forgets to turn it back to "espresso" grind after having it set to "perk" grind. :Lol: Might be a chunk of dead hard only partly melted valve lifter out of a car, or maybe a chunk of a bearing race from a motorbike found its' way into your stock for the eccentrics. :shrug:
Glad you were able to carbide your way thru the hard spot. The eccentrics look great! :cheers: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Found various oddities and hard spots in mild steel bar and other materials over the years. The strangest one was a hard steel ball (probably ex-bearing) in a brass bar. A close second would be the broken carbide turning insert embedded in a HRS bar. I think it depends how well the mills in China and India sort the scrap that goes into the mild steel melts. Maybe someone operating the crusher in the scrapyard forgets to turn it back to "espresso" grind after having it set to "perk" grind. :Lol: Might be a chunk of dead hard only partly melted valve lifter out of a car, or maybe a chunk of a bearing race from a motorbike found its' way into your stock for the eccentrics. :shrug:
Glad you were able to carbide your way thru the hard spot. The eccentrics look great! :cheers: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
The spot appears to have been very small, once I took the carbide insert to it, it went away in a couple of passes, and seems to be fine underneath. The opening on that side was only 1/8" away, and it milled there just fine. If it was a chunk of something else in the crucible, fortunately it was small.
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There is nothing on timing, lap, lead, etc.
I think the valve timing could be adjusted with a combination of valve stroke and valve centering. The stroke was adjusted with the setting of the valve linkage. There should be an adjustment for each cylinder.
The exact timing with respect to the entire engine is not important, but the timing with respect to the specific piston is important for efficiency. Adjustments would have been made to try to equalize the contribution from each end of the piston.
I believe in many cases the settings for reverse rotation were sacrificed to optimize the settings for forward rotation.
The Liberty Ship engines, somewhat later of course, also had the eccentrics keyed to the crankshaft.
Purely a guess, but I suspect the designers and engineers did not want any fancy adjustment mechanisms on the crankshaft. Anything "adjustable" can cause reliability problems.
Gene
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The designer would have known what angle between the crank and each eccentric should be keyed in, but the plans I have don't specify it, so I will make the eccentric angle adjustable and fine tune it once on the model to find its sweet spot. Then it can be locked down, leaving the centering adjustment to the valve linkage.
Since the reverse eccentric is separate, I don't understand why its setting should be inferior to the forward one. With either proper design or proper tuning later its possible to have both directions run equally well. An exception could be if they were made as one unit but without analyzing the angles together with the valve dimensions ahead of time.
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Since the reverse eccentric is separate, I don't understand why its setting should be inferior to the forward one.
The link is typically not symmetrical, with a pivot point at one end. There is usually only one adjustment for the length of the valve stroke, which is set through the link position. And there is only one adjustment to center the valve.
No doubt great effort was made to design the most balanced system possible. However, everything I have read over the years indicates that it was not generally possible to optimize both forward and reverse at the same time. The compromise always went toward favoring the forward rotation.
I do not believe the differences were gross, more likely only a few percent.
Gene
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"a pile" seems likes just wrong term for that nice work, maybe "a wobble of eccentrics" or "an institution of eccentrics" :ROFL:
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"a pile" seems likes just wrong term for that nice work, maybe "a wobble of eccentrics" or "an institution of eccentrics" :ROFL:
In the picture they look sorta like a screaming stack of pies.
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"a pile" seems likes just wrong term for that nice work, maybe "a wobble of eccentrics"
Wobble???
Sacrilege!
Carefully designed and manufactured eccentricity. :lolb:
Gene
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That is a great institution of eccentrics, Eric!
An "institution" of eccentrics! I like it! :Lol:
That term probably also fits for us lot too! :ROFL:
Kim
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[quote author=Kim link=topic=10936.msg266095#msg266095 date=1
An "institution" of eccentrics! I like it! :Lol:
That term probably also fits for us lot too! :ROFL:
Kim
[/quote
instituion sounded better than asylum :stickpoke:
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Excellent eccentrics! Fascinating production method.
Todd
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And the eccentrics are done. Last step was to drill/tap for the set screws. These holes were countersunk so I could use some SHCS and hide the head down inside the center post.
(https://i.postimg.cc/gksX5Fc3/IMG-3292.jpg)
While I have the eccentrics out on the bench, think I'll start on the eccentric straps next. They are pieced up with brass/bronze bars around the eccentrics, and steel top/bottom straps, all bolted together down the sides.
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Very intuit setups love it….. :Love:
:cheers:
Don
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Thanks guys!
I went through the bar stock, to pick pieces for the eccentric straps. It would take an inordinate amount of bronze roundbar to make them from, don't have any large enough diameter to cut the squares from anyway. I do have lengths of brass flat bar that are proper size to start with, so I cut 18 short pieces of that (2 per strap, top/bottom halves) but can't start shaping them further till they are stress relieved. They are all soaking in the oven at 500F for the next hour, so later today or tomorrow I can start work on them. First I'll drill down the ends for the bolts to hold the two halves together...
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Excellent work on the excentrics :praise2: :praise2: :wine1:
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Starting in on shaping the eccentric straps, got them all cut and trimmed to length yesterday, today am notching the corners for where the bolts will connect the two halves.
(https://i.postimg.cc/WtRTcs8n/IMG-3293.jpg)
half the stack notched, half to go...
(https://i.postimg.cc/VsJtw44r/IMG-3294.jpg)
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Oh! I do like to see those bushels of solid gold chips! :Lol:
Great start on the straps. :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Oh! I do like to see those bushels of solid gold chips! :Lol:
Great start on the straps. :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
The shop elves shoveled the chips into their truck and roared off to the beer store..
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Did you call ahead to the store? maybe mention the shop elves are miners (pronounced "minors") - maybe they won't get served! :LittleDevil:
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Did you call ahead to the store? maybe mention the shop elves are miners (pronounced "minors") - maybe they won't get served! :LittleDevil:
they are too good a customer...
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Yesterday all the notches in the eccentric straps were done, today started drilling all the holes at the outer ends for the bolts to join the halves. Set up the end stop in the vise, and have been working my way through spot drilling and drilling through... On the right of the picture is the first pair screwed together. On the left is the next half being drilled.
(https://i.postimg.cc/V6BJN1zs/IMG-3295.jpg)
On the assembled pair, you can see two little circles drawn on at the upper edge - approximate locations for mounting holes top and bottom to hold the parts to the faceplate to bore out the center opening. After that, will hold the parts on an arbor and mill around the edge to put in the final profiles. Lots more shaping to do on these, there are openings similar to the ones in the eccentrics, and recesses down the sides and will be rounded around the screws. Lots of shaping on 18 pieces...
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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You've got a regular eccentric factory going there, Chris! :Lol: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
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Kim - I don't know if he's got an ECCENTRIC factory, or an eccentric FACTORY, or maybe a little of both?
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I'm an eccentric With a factory! :Lol:
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All of the eccentric strap blanks have been drilled and tapped, ready for next steps of shaping. The shop elves have sent in their scale stunt double Rocky to show how big the eccentrics and straps are compared to a properly scaled person:
(https://i.postimg.cc/9QSQp0LN/IMG-3296.jpg)
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Rocky looks like he may have figured out that a keg of Elfensteiner at his scale will just fit in the crankshaft hole of the eccentrics! :Lol:
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Got the strap blanks ready to bore. Started by setting up in the mill vise to drill a hole in the center of the two halves, then used that to screw each blank to an arbor piece in the lathe chuck that had a center hole drilled/tapped on the lathe. Set that on the rotary table, and drilled sets of four holes in all the blanks and in the arbor. The ones in the arbor were then tapped.
(https://i.postimg.cc/6q3g6DS2/IMG-3297.jpg)
Now its all ready to start boring the holes for the eccentrics:
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZRjXSTfz/IMG-3298.jpg)
Each one will get bored through at the diameter of the shoulder on the eccentrics, then bored larger in the center between the sides to match the OD of the eccentrics.
-
I watch the construction of the eccentrics with great interest. The details will help me a lot when I need to build the eccentric for my model. Since there is no cast part, I have to do it the way you show it here.
Nice work!
Michael :cheers:
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Michael, the one thing I'd do differently if I did another set this way would be to make the arbor for the eccentrics themselves larger diameter. With the size arbor I had, I could only get half the screws into the arbor when the eccentric was in its offset position. Other than that it worked out great.
:cheers:
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Some slightly intricate boring work on the eccentric straps. Drilled a starter hole then opened up with the boring tool to the OD of the shoulder on the eccentrics, which is about .040" smaller than the OD of the middle section of them:
(https://i.postimg.cc/VNmG4JwB/IMG-3299.jpg)
Then moved in and opened up the center section to match the larger OD in the middle. The boring tool has a shallower taper on the side towards the cross slide, so to get a square shoulder on both sides requires making two cuts, flipping the part around for the second one.
(https://i.postimg.cc/cJhDzd4q/IMG-3304.jpg)
Here it is with both cuts made, and one half of the strap unscrewed so the eccentric could be put in to test the fit. This closeup shows how the shoulders on the two parts key together to keep the strap from sliding sideways off the eccentric:
(https://i.postimg.cc/JzbYbbfz/IMG-3306.jpg)
First two sets done, seven more to go! Will continue on them tomorrow...
(https://i.postimg.cc/j5j80BLD/IMG-3307.jpg)
The one on the right reminds me of the painting The Screem, while the one on the left looks more like a happy Minnion. :Lol:
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Very sweet looking eccentrics, Chris! :popcorn: :ThumbsUp:
Kim
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Only one word to describe the feature in the ID of the eccentrics - "Groovy!" :facepalm2: :facepalm: :Lol:
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Thanks guys!
:cheers: :cheers:
Been alternating time on them with making another watertight compartment for one of the rc subs, had been using one WTC for two subs, time to give each thier own. I much prefer machining brass to sawing and drilling acrylic plastic! We went out to the pond today to make sure the water still works after being frozen all winter. It does! Next regular scheduled run at the indoor pool in a week.
-
re pond - glad to hear the change of state didn't mean the pond water moved to New Jersey! :Lol:
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Still following along :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :wine1:
You seem to have a lot of overhang on your boring bar, did you have any chatter problems? Did you measure the depth of the groove or just use the scale on the crosslide?
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Still following along :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :wine1:
You seem to have a lot of overhang on your boring bar, did you have any chatter problems? Did you measure the depth of the groove or just use the scale on the crosslide?
No chattering, that bar is narrow but it is my favorite, gives a great finish. I used the scale on the cross slide handwheel to set the depth/width of the groove. Noted the handwheel settting that gave the bore to match the shoulders, and went from there to cut the groove depth.
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Interesting way to fit. I've always made the straps first and then shaved the eccentric a few thou at a time.
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they look great, but should one be showing off thier eccenticities this much? insert very large butterfly net imoji, insert straight jacket imoji... :Jester:
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Interesting way to fit. I've always made the straps first and then shaved the eccentric a few thou at a time.
That would work too, hmmm, your way would mean fewer times unbolting the straps to check fit. Have to remember that for next time!
:cheers:
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they look great, but should one be showing off thier eccenticities this much? insert very large butterfly net imoji, insert straight jacket imoji... :Jester:
They haven't gotten the net on me yet! :insane:
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This morning I got the rest of the straps turned to fit the eccentrics.
So, here is one wibbly-wobbly thundering herd of eccentrics and straps, ready to start shaping the outside profiles of the straps:
(https://i.postimg.cc/XYBmssJf/IMG-3308.jpg\)
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Hi "C" Looking good Will you number stamp them ??
"W"
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Hi "C" Looking good Will you number stamp them ??
"W"
Oh yes, they were stamped with numbers back when I drilled the halves, eccentrics are numbered too.
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Huh... I thought we all agreed it was a wibbly-wobbly thundering institution of eccentrics. Er, well, maybe I was the only one who agreed to that! :Lol:
Kim
So, here is one wibbly-wobbly thundering herd of eccentrics and straps, ready to start shaping the outside profiles of the straps:
(https://i.postimg.cc/XYBmssJf/IMG-3308.jpg\)
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Huh... I thought we all agreed it was a wibbly-wobbly thundering institution of eccentrics. Er, well, maybe I was the only one who agreed to that! :Lol:
Kim
So, here is one wibbly-wobbly thundering herd of eccentrics and straps, ready to start shaping the outside profiles of the straps:
(https://i.postimg.cc/XYBmssJf/IMG-3308.jpg\)
I thought it was that WE should be in the institution... :Lol:
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A beautiful sight!
The eccentrics are already looking good.
Michael
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Thanks Michael!
Just got the arbor I used to make the eccentrics modified slightly to hold the straps - turned the outside diameter down to fit inside the hole in the straps, and made a top cap from a leftover disc of brass. First piece has had its top/bottom corners rounded off, the top keeps a flat section in the middle where the arm will bolt on.
(https://i.postimg.cc/B6P8h8y7/IMG-3309.jpg)
I'm going to do the same cuts on all the other straps, then move on to the next shaping. There will be narrow slots cut into area between the top/bottom arcs and the center bore. After that, the outer edges where the bolts are get recessed and then thier outer corners rounded off.
Good place to break for the day and head back outside to enjoy the warm weather!
-
Once all the outside edges were profiled, next step is to mill in the openings top and bottom. Switched to a 1/16" end mill and laid out the number of turns on the rotary table for each arc. Then its a matter of CNC - Count Number Cranks. The small end mill can't reach all the way through the part, so cuts have to be done from each side to meet in the middle.
(https://i.postimg.cc/tRWK6mx6/IMG-3311.jpg)
Here is the first one with both sides cut:
(https://i.postimg.cc/j2HBrLbc/IMG-3312.jpg)
The shorter arcs at the top go between where the bolts from the arm and the side bolts are. The one at the bottom goes all the way across the middle. So far I have 4 of the 9 straps to this stage...
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Looking great Chris!
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that is a lot of steps and effort, but the results are well worth it!!! :cheers:
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Thanks guys!
A few more steps to go. After all the slots were cut in, I started putting in the recesses on each side, around the bolts that hold the halves together.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Wz0mWZvN/IMG-3313.jpg)
First one done
(https://i.postimg.cc/FFSxsMJM/IMG-3314.jpg)
After all are to this step, I need to make up a little jig to hold the parts on their sides with the bolt holes along the axis of the chuck. That will be set up on the vertical rotary table so the ends of the recesses can be rounded over. If they went all the way to the top/bottom ends, I could just run a rounding over bit along the corner, but the ends stick up above the recesses so that wouldn't work. Going to take a few sessions for each of these next steps...
:cheers: :cheers:
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Those look great, Chris! :popcorn: :ThumbsUp:
So, what is the purpose of the arc cutouts in the eccentric? Just to reduce weight? They sure add a lot of visual interest! (And a LOT of operations!)
Kim
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Those look great, Chris! :popcorn: :ThumbsUp:
So, what is the purpose of the arc cutouts in the eccentric? Just to reduce weight? They sure add a lot of visual interest! (And a LOT of operations!)
Kim
Hi Kim,
I've seen the eccentric cutouts on lots of engines. I assume they are to reduce oscillating weight (and save metal) while keeping the beam strength up. Secondary use could be to give a place to lift them from, but that could have been done with just a small hole, so weight seems like the most likely reason to me.
-
might have made the parts less prone to distortion during casting,, plus maybe less weight and better balance when the castings were machined into parts...
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I've seen the eccentric cutouts on lots of engines. I assume they are to reduce oscillating weight (and save metal) while keeping the beam strength up. Secondary use could be to give a place to lift them from, but that could have been done with just a small hole, so weight seems like the most likely reason to me.
.... and me who wondered if you're trying to make a Warship Artsy :LittleDevil:
Per :cheers:
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I've seen the eccentric cutouts on lots of engines. I assume they are to reduce oscillating weight (and save metal) while keeping the beam strength up. Secondary use could be to give a place to lift them from, but that could have been done with just a small hole, so weight seems like the most likely reason to me.
.... and me who wondered if you're trying to make a Warship Artsy :LittleDevil:
Per :cheers:
The SS Artsy - fires multicolored paintballs! :Lol:
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Maybe the patternmaker's union in the Navy Yard negotiated multiple numbers of cores / core boxes for every pattern made, in their collective bargaining agreement? :Lol: (could also be for excellent technical reasons like material reduction, mass balancing, etc. but you never know... :thinking:)
:cheers:
-
[/quote]
The SS Artsy - fires multicolored paintballs! :Lol:
[/quote]
USS Jackson Pollock :ROFL:
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The SS Artsy - fires multicolored paintballs! :Lol:
USS Jackson Pollock :ROFL:
Perfect!
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USS Jackson Pollock :ROFL:
No doubt with dazzle camouflage replaced by paint splatter camouflage.
-
:Lol:
-
Down to the last milling steps on the eccentric straps - rounding over the sides. Did some playing around, um, I mean scientific testing of various alternatives, in the shop this morning to figure out the best way to hold the straps. Easiest to make was to re-use a piece of angle aluminum from a previous jig, bolting it to the faceplate and using the cap from the jig the other day to hold the strap to it:
(https://i.postimg.cc/SQZZtJPm/IMG-3316.jpg)
After some fiddling about getting the bolt hole on the side of the part centered, I drilled/tapped in some screws to hold the jig to the faceplate, and could start milling. Used a 1/8" end mill, rotating the part 10 degrees at a time and running it back and forth under the cutter between the tabs at either end.
(https://i.postimg.cc/HsVSGTGX/IMG-3317.jpg)
Here is the first one with both sides rounded:
(https://i.postimg.cc/rF3fM7cb/IMG-3318.jpg)
I'm liking the look, and will continue on with the rest of the straps. After this, the last thing to do is to drill/tap the flat on the top face to take the plate on the arm going up to the reverse linkage.
Thanks for watching along! :cheers: :cheers:
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Man! That's a FINE looking eccentric strap, Chris! :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
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Such beautiful work! I'm even more impressed that you accomplish all this with a nice little Sherline setup. You have that thing tuned up nice.
Todd
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Thanks very much guys! Castings? We don't need no castings! :Lol:
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The hard work has paid off. A nice part!
Now just make the others. Chris is very busy!
Greetings Michael :cheers:
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The hard work has paid off. A nice part!
Now just make the others. Chris is very busy!
Greetings Michael :cheers:
Busy is good!
:cheers:
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Side boss rounding really adds some visual feature interest! Very nice Chris. I see you used the Maxwell Smart Tool Company Trick #36547 - "the old angle sub plate on the upright RT trick, in the mill, eh, Siegfried?" :Lol:
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Side boss rounding really adds some visual feature interest! Very nice Chris. I see you used the Maxwell Smart Tool Company Trick #36547 - "the old angle sub plate on the upright RT trick, in the mill, eh, Siegfried?" :Lol:
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
You're giving away all my secrets Max! :Lol:
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Got the last of the sides rounded over, and then set up to drill the mounting holes for the arms up to the reverse links. The larger center hole is to allow a hex wrench to go through into the set screw in the eccentric for timing adjustments, will let me tweak timing without dismantling quite as much on each strap - just disconnect the arm to give access to the hole.
(https://i.postimg.cc/pXvzF1F9/IMG-3319.jpg)
And while I got out the plans to start figuring out how to make the next parts, the shop elves decided to play ring toss with Rocky...
(https://i.postimg.cc/Wb7r66G5/IMG-3320.jpg)
Since Rocky is scale size for the model, it shows how big that engine is! Once they are done I'll get the straps assembled onto the crankshaft...
Next parts will be the vertical frames. I could go with the con rods and eccentric arms instead, but if I make the frames there will be a place to attach them and be able to spin the crankshaft without all the arms clanking around everywhere. Here are some screen grabs from the CAD model of what they will look like. The cylinders will have a bracket out one side to attach to the top, and down the side are the crosshead guide rails. There is one of these frames per cylinder, the other side of the cylinder will get supported with a simple round vertical post.
(https://i.postimg.cc/L4D6xyWg/Vert-Frame-1.jpg) (https://i.postimg.cc/rFpy316n/Vert-Frame-2.jpg)
Some complex shapes, I need to plot out how they will be fabricated, will doubtless need some jigs for assembly and silver soldering the legs on.
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Hi Chris, that little tower of gold rings looks good. He is the Lord of the Rings!
I once read that the crosshead slideway on large machines had cavities for water cooling.
Is that the same here?
Greetings Michael
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Those frames are complex parts, Chris! But I guess that's like every other part in this engine. Nothing is easy!
Regarding the stack of eccentric straps surrounding Rocky; one of them (second from top) does not have the edges rounded over like all the others. Is that one the special one? Or is it just not done yet?
Kim
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Those frames are complex parts, Chris! But I guess that's like every other part in this engine. Nothing is easy!
Regarding the stack of eccentric straps surrounding Rocky; one of them (second from top) does not have the edges rounded over like all the others. Is that one the special one? Or is it just not done yet?
Kim
Elf-pucky! Somehow I missed one side of one of them! :wallbang: The jig is still on the faceplate, so easy to go back and do that one. Glad you spotted that - thanks!
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Hi Chris, that little tower of gold rings looks good. He is the Lord of the Rings!
I once read that the crosshead slideway on large machines had cavities for water cooling.
Is that the same here?
Greetings Michael
I have not seen water cooling on the crosshead slides for any engines I've seen, and there is no mention of it on these plans. A lot of the larger ones have automatic oilers for the slides, some drip feed from the top, some have combs on the crossheads that dip into oil trays at the bottom of the stroke and spread oil on the way back up.
He is now Lord of the Straps at least! They are looking around for a pet dragon now...
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I spent some time with the plans and the CAD model, and decided how the vertical frames will be made. The 'legs' will be pieced up from thin flat bar layered with channel milled from some 1/8" x 3/8" flat bar, and the feet soldered on from thicker stock. The upper blocks will be milled from solid - took a look at piecing them up as well, but they are so thick that it would be even more costly to make them from pieces, since I already have some round bar that I can square up. The round bar came from some 'drops' that I picked up cheap from Yarde Metals at about 1/4 the normal prices. I'll have to make up a soldering jig to hold the legs/feet in alignment for soldering.
First though, need to go back and round of that one side of the one eccentric strap that I missed! That will take less time than what I'll spend muttering about missing it! :facepalm:
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The eccentrics and straps have all been assembled onto the crankshaft. The positions/timing of them is just a rough approximation, way too early on to worry about that, they will be set in final position much later on. Still, great to see things coming together!
(https://i.postimg.cc/GhPnm9F0/IMG-3322.jpg)
Meanwhile the elves were busy measuring out bar stock for the vertical frames. These stacks are about half of the pieces that will go into them, I had to order some wider flat bar for the main sections of the legs. The big stack of narrow bars will get milled into the profiles for the ribs on the inside/outside of the legs, and the thicker bars the elves are sitting on will be the crosshead rail covers. The smaller stack at their feet will be the 'feet' of the frames, each bar will make two feet, and the single bar with the three sets lines on it will become the horizontal crossbars at the top of the legs. The main pieces missing are the big blocks that form the 'bodies' on top of the legs, where the crosshead gudies are. They will be cut down from some larger round stock. Lots and lots of stock to prep for these frames, and lots of profiles to mill into them. Going to be a long mini-project to make them. All four of the vertical frames are identical, so all will be made together. The cylinders mount on top of them, and that is where the differences start, with the varying diameters of the cylinder blocks.
(https://i.postimg.cc/gkbPp36q/IMG-3321.jpg)
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Oh, and those stacks of bar stock were all stress relieved in the oven this afternoon.
-
Yeah, sorry about that one escapee eccentric strap, Chris! Glad you got it taken care of while you still had the step up in place! :ThumbsUp:
I had wondered if that eccentric strap was the 9th one, you know? You have eight for the main four cylinders and one more for something else that I can't quite remember. I thought maybe that one was different. Guess not!
Looking forward to seeing the frames come together!
Kim
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Yeah, sorry about that one escapee eccentric strap, Chris! Glad you got it taken care of while you still had the step up in place! :ThumbsUp:
I had wondered if that eccentric strap was the 9th one, you know? You have eight for the main four cylinders and one more for something else that I can't quite remember. I thought maybe that one was different. Guess not!
Looking forward to seeing the frames come together!
Kim
That one was one 8n the middle, apparently I took a break there and when I came back I assumed that both sides were done and went to the next one. Amazing how I could handle it a bunch of times and not notice.
The ninth eccentric drives a two cylinder pump at the LP end of the crankshaft. On the plans its labeled in German and English as a Sanitary Pump. Not sure what it actually pumped, bilges, water, sewage, feedwater... on the model I'll make the pump, but the internal check valves will be too tiny to make accurately.
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Great looking stack of strap assemblies! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
as to dragons in reply 925 - if the shop elves do find a pet dragon, will you have to contact google maps and have them make a notation over your location saying "here there be dragons" just like on ancient maps? signed- The Lord of the Onion Rings :Lol:
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Great looking stack of strap assemblies! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
as to dragons in reply 925 - if the shop elves do find a pet dragon, will you have to contact google maps and have them make a notation over your location saying "here there be dragons" just like on ancient maps? signed- The Lord of the Onion Rings :Lol:
They better get a big dragon. Up on top of the display cabinet in the workshop is one of my guard dragons, carved this one years ago:
(https://i.postimg.cc/6Qp8hkW3/IMG-3325.jpg)
This is the skull of its father...
(https://i.postimg.cc/d0NLN539/IMG-3326.jpg)
and its cousins in the other room
(https://i.postimg.cc/MTcXC1jJ/IMG-3328.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/50ZjbjwY/IMG-3327.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/L41nvBpz/IMG-3330.jpg)
And I can always call in the air force...
(https://i.postimg.cc/j2P25KX8/IMG-3329.jpg)
and the navy - notice the baby sea turtle on the back of the big one
(https://i.postimg.cc/vBh2Lmy8/turtles-1.jpg)
Lest they forget when I sicced the polar bear on them for stealing my beer
(https://i.postimg.cc/nzBRjcjC/IMG-8489.jpg)
:lolb: :ROFL: :Jester:
(https://i.postimg.cc/nzkMMsh0/Image7.jpg)
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:Lol: :cheers:
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Todays task is to shape the plates that go on either side of each leg panel. Near as I can tell from the plans, there are two angle iron pieces surrounding a flange in the center - whether the center flange is actually two flanges, one on either side of a joint where two pieces are joined, or if its just two steel angles reinforcing a cast iron flange, I can't tell from the plans, not enough detail shown. But, the general shape is the same either way.
Taking the 16 lengths of flat bar that I prepped yesterday, I started running them through on the mill, first a pass down either side to form the center flange end sticking out from the angle irons.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Y2XBGj0T/IMG-3331.jpg)
Then moved out and down with the cutter, and did two more passes on each piece (am doing all 16 pieces at each setup, then moving on) to form the angle iron shapes. On the original drawings I can see rows of rivets holding both legs of the angle iron bars in place, for the model I'm making this all from one piece since its so small.
(https://i.postimg.cc/wMBK4YfW/IMG-3332.jpg)
A better look from the end:
(https://i.postimg.cc/2y9sP9gC/IMG-3333.jpg)
These strips will be attached to the flat faces of the legs, either with small rivets or soldered on.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: A great start on the frames!
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: A great start on the frames!
Thanks Jeff!
I had found a perfect block of square brass bar as a drop at Yarde Metals, nice and cheap, perfect size for the vertical frame top sections. I ordered it yesterday. Today they sent me an email cancelling the order because they couldn't find it in the warehouse. :( So, WHO out there sent their shop elves on a midnight raid to get it before I could? Huh? :Jester: So, back to shaping them down from the round bar I already have...
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Gonna have to get Rocko and Lefty to fix the muffler on their scale size screamin Jimmy dump truck next time they go to
Yarde to lift your order get some coffee and doughnuts! :Lol:
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That's a great start on a long journey to build the frames! :popcorn: :ThumbsUp:
Too bad about Yarde Metals. More brass is always a good thing! :(
Kim
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Just had a different idea for the upper blocks in the vertical frames. Rather than cutting down some round bar, I remembered that I have a few offcut slabs of wide 1/2" and 3/8" thick brass flat bar, I think left over from the bases on the Ward pumping engine. Looks like they are big enough to slice out the four frames, and if stacked up they are just over the total thickness needed... It would save a lot of work squaring up the round bar...
Hmmm. More measuring and layout needed tomorrow! :thinking:
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All of those stepped rails are done, decided I'll rivet them in place on the leg plates (stock for those is arriving today). I set up to make the feet, which needed an angled cut in the side to take the leg plates. Set up the tilting table for that:
(https://i.postimg.cc/d0HRG0t1/IMG-3335.jpg)
I'm going to leave that table at that angle till the top blocks are pieced up, they will need a slot at the same angle to take the top ends of the leg plates. Here is the stack of feet ready for next steps - they need mounting holes drilled to match the holes in the engine beds, holes for the screws to hold the leg plates, and they need to be trimmed to length.
(https://i.postimg.cc/1t8GBZfK/IMG-3338.jpg)
But for now, its on its way up to 80F this afternoon, so am heading outside!
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Good plan to enjoy the weather! I'll be hunting some yellow headed green monsters on the lawn later today myself. :Lol:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Good plan to enjoy the weather! I'll be hunting some yellow headed green monsters on the lawn later today myself. :Lol:
Sounds like a good day to hunt wild dandy lions!
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You are making some quick progress now. It's all looking great.
I'm jealous of your temperatures. We woke up to 16 degrees this morning with gray skies. It's as if winter has returned. YUCK!
Todd
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You are making some quick progress now. It's all looking great.
I'm jealous of your temperatures. We woke up to 16 degrees this morning with gray skies. It's as if winter has returned. YUCK!
Todd
The warmth is just today. Its bouncing between highs of 40 and 80 this week. Still may get more snow.
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Just had a different idea for the upper blocks in the vertical frames. Rather than cutting down some round bar, I remembered that I have a few offcut slabs of wide 1/2" and 3/8" thick brass flat bar, I think left over from the bases on the Ward pumping engine. Looks like they are big enough to slice out the four frames, and if stacked up they are just over the total thickness needed... It would save a lot of work squaring up the round bar...
Hmmm. More measuring and layout needed tomorrow! :thinking:
Yup - this idea is panning out. I did some more studying of the original plans (which don't show a lot of detail on these frames seperately, but there are some details in other views), and decided that I can make the top sections in three slices, bolted together through the sides (perpendicular to the crosshead guide surface). The original appears to have been bolted up in a somewhat similar fashion, thegrid of bolts/nuts show in one of the views. If I do them in the three slices, it will use some existing bar stock already on the shelf, and save a whole lot of time and work squaring up blocks from round bar.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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The thin bar stock for the frame legs arrived yesterday, so I got it cut down to rough lengths. While I was at the saw I also cut down the thicker bars for the upper half of the frame, above the legs. Here are all the pieces, the very thin ones are for the legs, the four medium thickness ones are the center section of the uppers, and the eight thick ones are the outsides for the uppers - the three pieces for each will be stacked and bolted together. The original plans show a gridwork of bolts through the uppers, so I can just drill through and bolt things up, which will save a lot of soldering time.
(https://i.postimg.cc/rybSM9JY/IMG-3339.jpg)
I also got the feet drilled for the holes to bolt them to the engine bed. Here they are with one of the legs and feet set together to show how the legs angle in towards the center of the upper frame.
(https://i.postimg.cc/bNt1J2VY/IMG-3340.jpg)
Next I got the holes to attach the base of the legs (ankles!) to the feet:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Y0JgRp0w/IMG-3341.jpg)
They are all drilled, more tapping to do. Next I'll square up the ends of the legs and drill the matching holes in the ankles. At the top end, the legs will fit into slots in the uppers and be through bolted.
The feet bar stock is connected to the... leg bar, the leg bar is connected to the.. body block... :Jester:
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Holy! (literally) :Lol: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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After squaring up the leg plates and taking them all to length, set up to drill the matching holes in the bases:
(https://i.postimg.cc/3R2VZwng/IMG-3342.jpg)
First one drilled and assembled with the matching foot:
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZnZgshMX/IMG-3343.jpg)
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And with that, it's starting to look like the beginnings of a frame! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
I always love watching these intricate castings take shape as you fab them together, Chris!
Kim
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And with that, it's starting to look like the beginnings of a frame! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
I always love watching these intricate castings take shape as you fab them together, Chris!
Kim
Thanks Kim! My way of 'casting' is more like 'cold fusion' than pouring hot metal! :ROFL:
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Those will be nice long legs! 😉
I'm always amazed at how you conjure up castings.
Michael :cheers:
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Those will be nice long legs! 😉
I'm always amazed at how you conjure up castings.
Michael :cheers:
Hi Michael,
Its been an interesting sequence, same thing happened in my ship modelling and carving hobbies - started out with kits, evolved into scratch building. When I got into machining, I started out with casting kits. Great way to learn, but figuring out how to hold rough castings was often frustrating, as was dealing with flaws in the castings occasionally (whether misalignments, holes, hard spots). Did a number of kits like that, but never really progressed much and didn't spend that much time in the hobby. Along the way I picked up Kozo's book on the New Shay, and was fascinated but it took about 10 more years before I got up the nerve to actually try it (retirement helped by freeing up a lot more time). One of the biggest things I took away from that project was learning how to piece up complex parts (making jigs, silver soldering, etc) to make them from bar stock rather than very expensive casting sets. Also, just getting into the mindset of looking at parts and figuring out how to piece them up from multiple pieces. Developing those skills allowed for finding and building models that didn't exist as kits (and then not even as available plans, when the CAD software became an option for the home user). Whole new world of hobby opened up!
Chris :cheers:
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And Rocky standing over his leg collection... All are drilled/tapped an screwed together. Later on after more is together on them, I'll add either loctite or solder to the joints. The screws are enough to hold things, so silver solder is probably not needed, and the annealing that would entail would be bad anyway for such thin legs.
(https://i.postimg.cc/BQhDm9Yy/IMG-3344.jpg)
The outboard side of the legs gets tapered from the feet up to the top, but before I do that I want to add the support strips that I made the other day - doing that before the taper will make holding the legs in the vise a lot easier. But, before adding those strips, I think I want to have the legs fitted to the upper blocks, so the strips can be trimmed to a close fit at the top. So, I think the next steps will be to get started on the upper blocks! Hows that for looking ahead a bunch of steps! :Lol:
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The stacks of bars for the upper halves of the vertical frames have all been taken down to final width and length (thickness was good as is). The shop elves came in and thought I was slacking off since they couldn't see much difference, so I made them measure them to be sure...
(https://i.postimg.cc/T2n9GJf9/IMG-3347.jpg)
Here are three of the bars stacked up like they will be in the final assembly, thin one in the middle, thick ones on the outside:
(https://i.postimg.cc/tJdt5p2f/IMG-3346.jpg)
The three will be through-bolted from the sides with a couple rows of bolts, like the original plans show. The outer ones get stepped in a little narrower behind the crosshead surface, and the side opposite the guide surface gets tapered, narrow at the topm, wide at the bottom, as well as getting flanges milled in on that tapered side, plus the bottom gets slots for the legs to fit into, so lots more work to go on these parts. Not to mention the rows of bolt holes for the guide caps and the grid of holes on top for the cylinder to bolt to. And the holes for mounting the reverse rod guides and the reverse engine!
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Did a little mockup of the parts to check dimensions, bolted two of the legs down to the engine bed. It shows the reason for the angle in the legs and in the ends of the crank webs, how they span around the crank webs. The black line at the top of the leg in the picture shows how deep the legs will slot into the upper blocks.
(https://i.postimg.cc/JhZz20Cp/IMG-3348.jpg)
And one of the flange strips held up about where they will go on the sides of the legs. There will be one of these strips on the inside and outside of each leg. The dots on the strip mark out about where the rivet pattern goes. The far side of each leg gets tapered at about the same angle up to match the thickness of the upper block.
(https://i.postimg.cc/zBNGZNJ8/IMG-3349.jpg)
Its really going to look interesting soon as these parts come together!
:cheers:
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It looks pretty interesting now, Chris! :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
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Next step is to cut the slots in the bottom of the upper blocks to fit the legs into. I had kept the tilt table at the same angle that was used to cut the recess in the feet, so am using it again for these slots. I started cutting the first one and noticed some chatter, and added the 1-2-3 block next to it, which cured that. Half the parts will be cut from the front, half from the back, to give the left and right parts needed. The slots do not go all the way through, since the upper blocks overhang the legs in front. Each slot was cut with a 3/32" cutter, in a series of passes to get down to final depth. The leg plates are 1/8" thick, so some side passes needed to get to final width. I considered using a 1/8" cutter, but I know from past experience that the slot it leaves is slightly over 1/8" since the narrow cutters flex into the cut, even when taking shallow passes.
(https://i.postimg.cc/LXWKFqgc/IMG-3350.jpg)
First one cut...
(https://i.postimg.cc/tg2GDvqC/IMG-3351.jpg)
One right/one left one cut, with one of the thinner plates between
(https://i.postimg.cc/MTH2L0H0/IMG-3353.jpg)
And test fit on the legs - looks good, so will continue with the rest of the sets. So far I have 3 right and 1 left piece cut out of the 8 total.
(https://i.postimg.cc/6Q9NrxNm/IMG-3354.jpg)
Its neat to see it getting up in the air finally - the cylinders will extend another 3 or 4 inches above these upper blocks.
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Those are going to be some mighty big upright frames! That's a LOT of brass there! $$$ :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
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Those are going to be some mighty big upright frames! That's a LOT of brass there! $$$ :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
Well, since this is leftover brass from the Ward engine build, already paid for then, can I consider it free? :LittleDevil:
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Those are going to be some mighty big upright frames! That's a LOT of brass there! $$$ :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
Well, since this is leftover brass from the Ward engine build, already paid for then, can I consider it free? :LittleDevil:
You can consider it whatever you want, Chris! It's your brass :Lol:
Kim
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All four sets of the upright blocks have had the leg slots milled in...
(https://i.postimg.cc/3J4LcSBJ/IMG-3356.jpg)
so its time to drill the grids of holes to bolt the sets of blocks together. Laid out the perimeters and holes in the first block, and drilled the holes in it. The first two rows closest to the camera are parallel to each other, the third row is parallel to the angled side.
(https://i.postimg.cc/2jXcTRnK/IMG-3357.jpg)
I am going to use this first block as a drill guide for the first blocks in the other three sets, then will use each of the first four as a drill guide for the middle block, those middle blocks then become drill guides for the final four blocks. Drilling small (2-56 clear) holes in deep blocks is asking for a little bit of wander in the holes, and the only important thing is that the holes line up with the start of the next block, so this should make final assembly easier.
All the blocks will be drilled, then the sides recessed in to leave the perimeter flanges. After that can drill the holes for mounting the crosshead guide caps plus the cylinders, and assemble the blocks prior to milling the angled side and the flanges cut into it. Long way to go on these parts.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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I say, Chris, you don't do anything half way, do you? :Lol: :popcorn: :popcorn:
That's 20 * 4 * 4 = 320 holes you'll be drilling there. Make sure and give that wrist a break from time to time! :o
Kim
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I say, Chris, you don't do anything half way, do you? :Lol: :popcorn: :popcorn:
That's 20 * 4 * 4 = 320 holes you'll be drilling there. Make sure and give that wrist a break from time to time! :o
Kim
Um, well, its not quite as bad as that. There are 3 plates in each set, not 4. So, its 20 holes * 3 plates * 4 sets = 240 holes. Way better! :???:
I just finished drilling them, so that chore is behind me at least. The first plate was done as shown on the mill, but the rest were done on the little Proxxon drill press, using the first one as a drill guide for positioning the holes as described in the earlier post. Using the drill press with its lever is a whole (pun intended) lot faster for drilling mass quantities, compared to turning the top crank on the mill.
(https://i.postimg.cc/j5XsB6zZ/IMG-3358.jpg)
Each one is number stamped on the end to keep the matching sets together for the next steps (not neccesarily in this order):- drill/tap the holes to attach the legs in the slots
- mill the recesses on the sides of the outer plates
- mill the tapered side
- mill in the flanges on the tapered side - arced and straight
- drill/tap the holes for the crosshead guide caps
- drill/tap the holes for the cylinder mounts
- I think the reverse engine needs some extra mounting holes
- make 80 2-56 studs to hold all the plates together
- final assembly and painting
The shop elves should be able to knock off all that tonight while I am sleeping. Guys? Hello? (vroom) Oh well, just saw them driving off down the street while flipping me the bird! :Lol:
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Business as usual in your shop, eh Chris? :Lol:
Great progress with the Puncturer by Proxon! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Back to the mill to drill the holes for attaching the legs. The 'hips' will be held by four screws (plus some loctite for good measure). To drill them, the legs were put into the slots, and held with a long bar clamp to keep them snug to the bottom of the slots and prevent the drill from moving them. Drilled through with tap size drill bit, removed the leg, and ran through again with the clearance drill.
(https://i.postimg.cc/GhKJQ9HR/IMG-3359.jpg)
All of them are drilled, partway through tapping the holes in the legs.
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Next I'm going to get the stiffening flanges trimmed and applied to the legs. Here is the first one cut and marked for rivet holes. There is one of these on either side of each leg, so I need 8 sets of left and right versions.
(https://i.postimg.cc/y6yVDM8J/IMG-3360.jpg)
On the original plans it appears that the top end is angled to fit against the bottom of the upper block, but the bottom end is left square. Seems odd not to angle both, but I'll follow their lead on mine. To cut the angles at the top of each I set up a mill vise on a rotary plate. A couple years ago when I picked up a used set of larger Sherline mill/lathe, this rotary base was in the parts set. Recently picked up another 2" all-steel vise to put in it to replace the mostly-aluminum one that Sherline provides. The slots on the side of the vise work out with the hold-downs.
(https://i.postimg.cc/6qcwFvmV/IMG-3361.jpg)
All the strips are trimmed to length, next up is to start drilling the rivet holes in the strips, then matching ones in the legs...
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Hello Chris, is the cross brace riveted on with visible rivets? So with a rivet head? Or are they hidden rivets. You can't see it in your virtual model yet.
Michael
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Hello Chris, is the cross brace riveted on with visible rivets? So with a rivet head? Or are they hidden rivets. You can't see it in your virtual model yet.
Michael
Visible rivets with round heads. I am actually starting on that process now, picture coming up... The CAD version didn't have the rivets, just the flange shapes.
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Here is the setup I am using for the rivet drilling. First clamped the parts in the vise on the bench to line up the strips on both sides of the leg and then put on the clamps, so I could move it over to the mill vise for drilling.
(https://i.postimg.cc/wBMCjrbm/IMG-3362.jpg)
Drilled the set of 3/64" holes for the rivets, took it out of the mill vise and back to the bench to install the rivets. Here is the first one with the strips attached to both sides of the leg (trust me, there is one on either side!)
(https://i.postimg.cc/fbP6tv6g/IMG-3364.jpg)
Even without the strips being attached to the feet or body blocks, it noticeably stiffens up the assembly. One down, seven more to go!
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good work 👍
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good work 👍
Thanks Michael!
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :cheers:
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Looking great, Chris. That last shot really shows the complexity of the build to this point, and the Proxxon in the background gives a great sense of the size of the beast!
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Wow! So you already riveted one together! No moss under your feet! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Kim
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Wow! So you already riveted one together! No moss under your feet! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Kim
No moss, one room has green carpet, does that count? :Lol:
I riveted the first one before drilling the rest to make sure the rivets were long enough. Just! Got three more drilled...
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Looking great, Chris. That last shot really shows the complexity of the build to this point, and the Proxxon in the background gives a great sense of the size of the beast!
Seems like my models are all bigger than the machines these days! :Lol:
:cheers:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :cheers:
:drinking-41:
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Got the rest of the flange strips down the sides of the legs riveted on
(https://i.postimg.cc/pyb927QQ/IMG-3365.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/wxt0jmc3/IMG-3366.jpg)
I think the next step will be to mill the outside faces of the blocks with the legs to form the flanges on the edges.
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Oh you build robots........
The lineup looks good!
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Wow! So you already riveted one together! No moss under your feet! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Kim
No moss, one room has green carpet, does that count? :Lol:
If the carpet started out green, and not somethings else, nope. :Lol: :thinking:
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Oh you build robots........
The lineup looks good!
Fun to build, but the stomping around at night is annoying! :Lol:
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Wow! So you already riveted one together! No moss under your feet! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Kim
No moss, one room has green carpet, does that count? :Lol:
If the carpet started out green, and not somethings else, nope. :Lol: :thinking:
Worth a try! :shrug:
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Forgot to mention - the frames assemblies are looking great. :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Ow! just bit down on a rivet - how'd that get in the popcorn? :Lol:
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Great progress (as usual) Chris :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
I know that it might be obvious later - but why is the top of the legs made from 3 pieces and not one ?
Per :cheers:
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Great progress (as usual) Chris :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
I know that it might be obvious later - but why is the top of the legs made from 3 pieces and not one ?
Per :cheers:
Why three pieces - great reason: I needed 1.375" total thickness, and I happened to have some bars left over from the Holly pump engine that were 1/2" and 3/8". Two 1/2" and one 3/8" gave just what I needed without needing to go buy more bar stock! :shrug: I had been planning to use some square bar the right size I lucked into at Yarde Metals for a bargain price, it was an offcut from their comercial supply business.
Ordered it, next day they cancelled the order since they couldn't find it in the warehouse. :facepalm: So, plan B was to piece it up from the three pieces after I did more digging into the scrap pile in the shop. :cheers:
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Oh yes - use what is on stock - makes good sense :ThumbsUp:
Per
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The sides of the outer blocks have been recessed to leave the flanges on three sides. The top/bottom flanges were also taken in slightly.
(https://i.postimg.cc/8PS3zfLR/IMG-3368.jpg)
Then drilled/tapped the holes for the crosshead guide caps:
(https://i.postimg.cc/fRWrx42k/IMG-3369.jpg)
And made up a pile of studs to bolt the sets together. A group of the studs near the bottom of each are longer to bolt on the brackets for the reverse control rod. Even if I had made the blocks from one piece, these bolts were needed both for the brackets and to match the look of the original engine.
(https://i.postimg.cc/3JFq4rZP/IMG-3370.jpg)
After all are up to this stage, the holes in the top ends need to be drilled/tapped for the studs that will hold the cylinders. After that I'll start shaping the tapered sides.
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All four are assembled (except for the bolts where the reverse brackets will go), and couldn't resist putting the legs back on one for a look
(https://i.postimg.cc/MHHy6Szf/IMG-3371.jpg)
Rocky got some exercise by climbing up to the top...
(https://i.postimg.cc/QCzcVyM4/IMG-3372.jpg)
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It looks fantastic!
Or it can also be used as a base for a worker monument 😉
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All those nuts make it look even more beefy! This is going to be quite the structure! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Kim
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It looks fantastic!
Or it can also be used as a base for a worker monument 😉
If it was Rocky They Flying Squirrel (of Bullwinkle fame) he could use it as a launch pad! :lolb:
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All those nuts make it look even more beefy! This is going to be quite the structure! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Kim
Thanks guys! Just finished drilling the holes in the tops for the cylinder attachments. Still some more tapping to do, tomorrow I'll probably get the tapering done and work out how to hold it for milling in the flanges on the tapered sides, one straight flange and two arched ones.
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Beautiful work Chris and I bet there is a pile of brass in that shop…. :Love:
:cheers:
Don
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The sheer number of parts is starting to show in the assembled engine...a marvel to watch this come together.
John
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Beautiful work Chris and I bet there is a pile of brass in that shop…. :Love:
:cheers:
Don
Thanks Don! The bucket in the separator in the vacuum is ready to be emptied!
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The sheer number of parts is starting to show in the assembled engine...a marvel to watch this come together.
John
Thanks John! I'm sitting back and marveling at it too! Very happy how it's all coming along. :cheers:
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This morning the tiling table was set up to taper the inboard face of the upper blocks.
(https://i.postimg.cc/xCsYXgxh/IMG-3375.jpg)
First one done:
(https://i.postimg.cc/WzCvnzP7/IMG-3376.jpg)
After all four were tapered, time to start forming the flanges on that face. The center one is straight down the middle, other two will be arched
(https://i.postimg.cc/L5nSLfGX/IMG-3377.jpg)
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the swarf pile keeps growing.. looking great :cheers:
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Still following along. Some amazing progress here. Starting to see the full scale of this engine. :popcorn:
Todd
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That's going to add more fine looking detail! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Kim
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Great looking chocolate finger moulds! :Lol:
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Thanks very much everyone, great to have you following along!
Just went out and got the mail, and it included my copies of the latest Live Steam magazine. Very cool article in there by fellow forum member Sid Pileski about his steampunk clock, got my reading for tonight! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
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Two things to share this afternoon. First are some new crewmates for Rocky. Jeff had told me about a place in the UK that sells scans of people that are great for 3D printing. I got two of them from their locomotive people collection, and here they are. Their names are Earl Cann and his boss Stu Pervisor. :Jester:
(https://i.postimg.cc/MpF9pL8g/IMG-3374.jpg)
They are a bit pale right now, they will get some paint soon. As with Rocky, I printed them at the same scale as this model, 1:20, so they will help show how huge the original engine was.
Also, after getting all the upper frame blocks tapered and the center flanges milled in, I set up to do the arched flanges that will go either side of the center one. The radius of the arch is a massive 7-1/2", which means that the part has to be held way off to the side on the rotary table, much farther out than I've done in the past. Here is the setup, with the tilt table/vise held out on the end of the long tooling plate:
(https://i.postimg.cc/0yQtxshp/IMG-3378.jpg)
As you can imagine, this is not the most rigid setup! It does work, but requires taking shallow/thin passes to keep it from chattering. Three sets of passes to get the depth needed, and quite a few to work my way in horizontally. So far I've done one of the outside arcs. Getting a picture was tough, all those freshly cut brass surfaces reflect the light something fierce, so for the picture I wound up coloring the top of the flange with a marker:
(https://i.postimg.cc/hPMCHjZD/IMG-3385.jpg)
Still a little hard to see what the shape is, hopefully I can get a better picture after it is off the mill and I can stand it upright. As you can see, one side is arched, one side is straight. Next step is to cut the arc into that second side so the two arcs form a narrow flange. Going to be at these cuts for a couple days!
:cheers:
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If you were cutting any bigger radius you might need to put the RT out in the yard! :Lol:
Figures look great! Re the colour, if anyone asks, just tell them the guys serviced a dump truck differential that afternoon. :Lol: (or tried to open a stuck lid on a can of grey nevr-seez) :cheers:
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If you were cutting any bigger radius you might need to put the RT out in the yard! :Lol:
Figures look great! Re the colour, if anyone asks, just tell them the guys serviced a dump truck differential that afternoon. :Lol: (or tried to open a stuck lid on a can of grey nevr-seez) :cheers:
The shop elves dropped the bag of dry cement mix into the fan again... :Lol:
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Repitition makes the milling go better... After the first arc cut (previous post) where I kept having touble with the cutter catching on the end of the cut where the flange stuck out, and it would dig in due to the tiny bit of play in the rotary table (normally not noticeable) multipled by the huge radius out from the center of the table, I came up with a better way. Made a stop cut at either end, with the table locked in position to eliminate the play. Here is the initial cut at one end, after the photo I nibbled it closer to the end. Did the same at both ends of the inner arc.
(https://i.postimg.cc/xjBxQhn7/IMG-3386.jpg)
That made the cut along the inner arc go a lot faster and cleaner. At least till I turned the rotary table handle the wrong way once! :wallbang: :hammerbash: With such a large radius, each turn of the handle moves the part about 3/4", so even a small turn of the handle moves it a lot. Nothing a little JB Weld wont hide under the paint!
(https://i.postimg.cc/NfTNjD00/IMG-3387.jpg)
This second cut went way faster than the first one, which gives hope for doing all the parts in a day or so. I'll be able to do the first side on all four parts with this setup, and will have to turn the tilt table around on the tooling plate to do the second sides of each since the tapered part is tilted up so the top face is level.
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For those in the "dark side" world these large radius curves would be a piece of cake. :lolb:
Gene
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For those in the "dark side" world these large radius curves would be a piece of cake. :lolb:
Gene
I still have working light bulbs, not 'dark side' here yet! :LittleDevil: I was thinking that cnc would make this job easy when figuring out how to hold the part!
:cheers:
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These parts are going to add a ton of interest to the engine! :popcorn: :ThumbsUp:
Sorry about the extra RT movement there. That's always a challenge - that over shoot... I feel for you. I've done that more than once myself! (a LOT more than once :Lol:)
Kim
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Any idea what was the point of the curvature of those ribs?
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Any idea what was the point of the curvature of those ribs?
All I can figure is to give it more lateral stiffness while keeping total weight down. On the plans I have from the battleship Kearsarge, every part is listed with a weight, so they can track totals. Important for ships to know for balance. The cylinders don't touch each other like they do in most compounds. Instead there are pairs of rods running sown the sides to connect them and stiffen the assembly.
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More practice plus a couple of changes, and things are going much more smoothly and a lot faster on cutting those arcs in the blocks. I took the rotary table back off the mill and adjusted the backlash on it, which helped a lot. It has a bolted on block that holds the handwheel and the worm gear inside. The bolt holes are elongated to adjust the backlash, so I loosened them and squeezed the block into the main unit, and re-tightened the bolts. That change let me take a cut twice as deep without chatter, though still a lot less than normal cuts close in to the table. Between the slight backlash, the length of the overhang on the tooling plate, the probable flex in the all aluminum tilt table, plus having to have the riser block under the mill head to get the reach needed from the column, theres a lot of places for flex and chatter to happen. Other change was to precut the stop cuts with the blocks held in the normal mill vise on the main table. On the inside, the stop cuts are .125" long at either end, and on the outside the stop cuts are only .050", but being on the inside of the curve, no reason not to make that .050" wide cut all the way down the length and save a lot of passes on the rotary table. All in all, cutting both sides of each curved flange is down to about 25 minutes.
Here is where I am at now - all the flanges on one side of each block are cut, next session will start in on the opposite side flanges - will need to turn the tilt table around on the tooling plate for that.
(https://i.postimg.cc/SR18KPvJ/IMG-3388.jpg)
Starting to look like a steampunk StoneHenge! :Lol:
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only these parts look magnificent 👍
:cheers:
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Beautiful brass monoliths, Chris! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Kim
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The last of the curved flanges is done, went quicker than I expected once the process was worked out.
(https://i.postimg.cc/VvMj6gXw/IMG-3392.jpg)
Got them assembled back on the legs to mark out the taper on the back of the legs where they are currently sticking out from the upper blocks. That will be the next thing to trim back. Rocky and Stu posed for some pictures of the family of parts:
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZRX842Bj/IMG-3389.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Pf8b2X97/IMG-3390.jpg)
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Outstanding!
Todd
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That's gorgeous Chris!!!!
Dave
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Thanks Dave/Todd! These parts are good practice for the cylinders later on, more funky shapes to piece up.
Hey Dave, has the weather been good enough there to get a start on the boat this spring?
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Thanks Dave/Todd! These parts are good practice for the cylinders later on, more funky shapes to piece up.
Hey Dave, has the weather been good enough there to get a start on the boat this spring?
NO! Rain last weekend and this weekend....so out in the shop a bit. Over 50 hours this week so ...going slow today.
Dave
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Boy, that's really starting to take shape! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
And the curved flanges really add a lot of detail to the model.
Kim
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Getting close to done with the vertical frames. With the shaping on the blocks done, next step was to taper the back of the legs to match. To get a nice flush fit at the joint, I assembled the legs on and milled off the very end to match heights:
(https://i.postimg.cc/tR8QYG1b/IMG-3393.jpg)
Since it would be too whippy to try and go the rest of the way down the legs like that, they were taken out of the blocks and clamped in the angled vise for most of the rest of the cut. The bottom inch flares out to the width of the foot, so the milling stopped short and I used the belt sander to do the flare at the end.
(https://i.postimg.cc/fTX4dqX9/IMG-3397.jpg)
Here they all are assembled with a little retaining compound for good measure, and all the screws in.
(https://i.postimg.cc/HkCq904P/IMG-3398.jpg)
All that remains on them is s little epoxy filler where I had goofed at the ends of the tapered flanges - a little JB Weld and filing it flush will hide those errors. Next parts will be the crosshead guide caps, then the brackets for the reversing control rod that runs down the back of the blocks. Also need to see where the other mounting holes need to be for the reverse engine (this engine is so big they had a single steam piston dedicated to moving the reverse links, a lot like a modern hyraulic ram) and the mounting brackets for the control valves (throttle, etc). After that the frames can go for paint.
:cheers:
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Very nice work on the supports! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Kim
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Very nice work on the supports! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Kim
Thanks Kim!
:cheers:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
I see you had the ex paramilitary shop elf Major Detail in to do some riveting and bolted assemblies! :Lol:
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Now it not only growing in Length and With .... but Height is added too ;D
Love the last picture from yesterday :praise2:
Per :cheers:
ps I though the Employe Politics where different back then - but with the latest addition :
The single 'Indian' 'aquired' two Chiefs - that sounds like modern Management :LittleDevil:
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Now it not only growing in Length and With .... but Height is added too ;D
Love the last picture from yesterday :praise2:
Per :cheers:
ps I though the Employe Politics where different back then - but with the latest addition :
The single 'Indian' 'aquired' two Chiefs - that sounds like modern Management :LittleDevil:
Two? Earl Cann and Rocky are workers, Stu is the only boss type. Well. The shop elves are definitely in charge, at least in their own minds! :Lol:
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Today is another stock prep day, making up the blanks for the crosshead guide caps. I had some bar stock the right width but too thick, so first steps were to trim all 8 to length then start taking them down to final thickness.
(https://i.postimg.cc/dV5ZZZ3k/IMG-3399.jpg)
These have rows of holes through for the mounting bolts, with bosses sticking up under each, and the corner next to that row is rounded over. So, will drill through for some round bar to make the bosses from, round over the corner, then insert the bars. Hmmm, before that will need to cut the recess in the opposite corner to form the guide itself, once the other corner is rounded it will be hard to hold. Details, details...
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Did the shop elves already get the 462 lb of solid gold chips cleaned up from the frames milling? :Lol:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Did the shop elves already get the 462 lb of solid gold chips cleaned up from the frames milling? :Lol:
Nah, they were too hung over from the Seven Dwarfs concert... :Jester:
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First step in shaping the blanks for the crosshead guide caps is to notch in one corner to form the flange that will overhang the plate on the side of the crosshead.
(https://i.postimg.cc/3RZX8XWk/IMG-3400.jpg)
Then started drilling the mounting bolt holes. These holes need to be 4-40 clear, but with the outer ends counterdrilled out to 3/16" to take the round posts that will stick up and form the bosses.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Y0q1hvmb/IMG-3401.jpg)
The posts will be drilled and parted to length on the lathe. Lots of them needed, 7 per cap * 8 caps. They will be loctited into the holes after the corner of the cap is rounded over. The counterdrilled portion of the hole does not go all the way through the cap, so as the bolts are tightened up they cannot pull the posts through the other side.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Thanks Jeff!
And started rounding over the front outside corners...
(https://i.postimg.cc/4xtBChv9/IMG-3402.jpg)
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Started making the posts to go in the crosshead guide caps. Simple tubes, just drill the end of a piece of rod, part off, repeat... After half a dozen I find I need to re-center drill since the drill bit starts to wander slightly.
(https://i.postimg.cc/8cZ8fk1T/IMG-3406.jpg)
Got about a third of them made so far...
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Will the tubes get soldered into the bars Chris?
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Will the tubes get soldered into the bars Chris?
No - the tube holes only go partway through the bars so they rest on the bottom of the holes. A dab of loctite is plenty then. The clearance holes for the screws go all the way through.
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Nice fab work, Chris. Certainly a lot easier than starting with larger brass stock and trying to round off 7 bosses on each one! :popcorn: :ThumbsUp:
Kim
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Got the rest of the tubes made and installed. Here they are bolted up onto the frames:
(https://i.postimg.cc/pVmXCX7m/IMG-3407.jpg)
And a family shot:
(https://i.postimg.cc/SQHQvbFD/IMG-3408.jpg)
The vertical frames are nearly done - last parts for them are the brackets that hold the reverse control rod that will run horizontally across the inboard side. This rod takes the power from the reverse engine and transfers it to crank arms at each valve set. Also need to drill and tap holes for the control valves at the base of the HP/IP cylinders, and to hold the reverse engine on.
:cheers:
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Nice fab work, Chris. Certainly a lot easier than starting with larger brass stock and trying to round off 7 bosses on each one! :popcorn: :ThumbsUp:
Kim
Especially since the posts extend across the area where the corner is rounded off!
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Wow! Those really make it look beefy! That's going to be quite the engine! :popcorn: :ThumbsUp:
Kim
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Will the tubes get soldered into the bars Chris?
No - the tube holes only go partway through the bars so they rest on the bottom of the holes. A dab of loctite is plenty then. The clearance holes for the screws go all the way through.
Gotcha. Thanks! :cheers:
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Splendid :praise2: :praise2:
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Hi Chris, what a splendid lineup of stand! Do you have a direct supply chain to the screw factory? Something is coming together.
Your apartment looks almost the same as mine. In each corner a machine model. 👍
Michael
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Hi Chris, what a splendid lineup of stand! Do you have a direct supply chain to the screw factory? Something is coming together.
Your apartment looks almost the same as mine. In each corner a machine model. 👍
Michael
I noticed that I was running low on a couple sizes of the screws and placed another order - These models do go through a lot of them! The cylinders will use up a lot, quite a lot of screws around the cylinder caps top and bottom.
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Splendid :praise2: :praise2:
Thanks Roger!
Wow! Those really make it look beefy! That's going to be quite the engine! :popcorn: :ThumbsUp:
Kim
Thanks Kim! I weighed one of the vertical frames, just about 2 pounds for one.
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Did some brass nibbling this afternoon on the reverse shaft brackets. Cut and trimmed one end of 8 blocks square, then lined them up and clamped them in the mill vise to cut the other end at an angle where the cap will go over the shaft. Also trimmed the sides to width in the same setup, to ensure the sides are auqre to the end. Later on these ends will be drilled for bolts to hold the caps, then cross drilled for the shaft.
(https://i.postimg.cc/k5FBrJPx/IMG-3409.jpg)
Each time the stack was moved, including for those first cuts in the previous picture, I used a pair of machinist parallel clamps to hold the stack together, since I want all the parts to be shaped the same.
(https://i.postimg.cc/d3D1TGkB/IMG-3410.jpg)
After a bunch of positioning and milling, the bracket profiles were all done.
(https://i.postimg.cc/bJydp7q4/IMG-3411.jpg)
Here is one held up about where it will go on the frame - they will be drilled for the through-bolts to hold them to the frames next.
(https://i.postimg.cc/NMdFMdMF/IMG-3412.jpg)
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You're making great progress Chris! watching along!
Dave
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You're making great progress Chris! watching along!
Dave
Pass the popcorn around! :Lol:
:cheers:
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Today got the caps for the brackets started. Began with cutting/trimming 8 little blocks from a flat bar to size, then lined them up in the mill vise to cut the shoulders where the bolts go through. To save a lot of time, they were all lined up in the mill vise and done as a group. The middle section still sticking up will get trimmed down and rounded over later on after the holes are bored.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Dzr8Vqbj/IMG-3413.jpg)
Here is the pile of caps so far.
(https://i.postimg.cc/fLMkMJcw/IMG-3414.jpg)
Then got to drilling mounting holes in the brackets. They were held in the finger clamp and the hole pattern drilled to match the ones in the frames.
(https://i.postimg.cc/NFMMrSCS/IMG-3415.jpg)
Then went through and drilled the clearance holes in the caps (no picture) and matching tap size holes in the brackets. A set of bracket and cap with the holes drilled are sitting on the mill table to the lower right.
(https://i.postimg.cc/V64vvmgX/IMG-3416.jpg)
All the holes are drilled, next will be to tap the holes in the ends of the brackets, assemble on the caps, and set up a jig to hold them all for drilling the shaft holes. Then will be able to cut back the faces on the brackets to form the bearing bosses around the shaft holes.
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Enthralled as always :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :ThumbsUp: Terry
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That with you as with the baker. Every day the master makes a new small mass production of beautiful parts.
Great
Michael :cheers:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Fantastic workmanship on this build and the speed that you are going it will be finished before I get half way through a simple hit and miss engine which is lacking my attention at the moment.
I for one am enjoying the build
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Thanks guys! If I had to guess, I'd say another 6 months on this build. Lots more to do on it..
:cheers:
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Thanks guys! If I had to guess, I'd say another 6 months on this build. Lots more to do on it..
:cheers:
where would the fun be if it was quick and easy :Doh:
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Thanks guys! If I had to guess, I'd say another 6 months on this build. Lots more to do on it..
:cheers:
where would the fun be if it was quick and easy :Doh:
For me the fun is in the building.
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I don't know how long this boy has been working on his Titanic machine, but it might look something like this when you're done.
Do you plan to build a shaft bearing for it as well?
Michael
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z36ypD6YeX4
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I don't know how long this boy has been working on his Titanic machine, but it might look something like this when you're done.
Do you plan to build a shaft bearing for it as well?
Michael
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z36ypD6YeX4
That is an incredibly detailed model! Appears to be driven by a motor in the base, but still very impressive.
The Ohio plans do not show the thrust bearing on the shaft, so I don't know which type they used. I'm just going to end the model at the end of of the crankshaft like it is now, though at the aft end of the frame there will be a pump that the plans do show. The mounting flanges for it are there on frame already.
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After getting the holes all drilled/tapped for the caps and the parts assembled to each other, I centered them up in the 4-jaw to bore the shaft holes:
(https://i.postimg.cc/KvY0x3MQ/IMG-3419.jpg)
then moved to the rotary table with an arbor to hold the shaft hole centered, and milled away the surfaces around the bosses
(https://i.postimg.cc/Qxn0tNgD/IMG-3420.jpg)
Then assembled them onto the frames, with the bolts left a little loose to do final assembly on the engine bed
(https://i.postimg.cc/rw0gt6gr/IMG-3425.jpg)
Also drilled the first two frames for the mounting holes to hold the valves and the frame for the reverse engine. Here are all four test fit on the engine bed, all aligned for the reverse shaft and everything tightened down.
(https://i.postimg.cc/d1v9XhF2/IMG-3424.jpg)
That completes the vertical frames, they are now ready for paint! :cartwheel:
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:NotWorthy: :NotWorthy:
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That looks great, Chris! :popcorn: :popcorn:
The reversing shaft is quite substantial itself, isn't it?!
Kim
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Looks great :praise2: - so beside a Lick of Paint - you have reached the next Milestone :whoohoo:
I agree with Kim - the Forward / Reverse Shaft is quite a diameter for a 'Control Rod' :o
Per :cheers:
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I agree, that control rod seems large, but remember that it is about 35 feet long on the original engine, moving four sets of reverse links that are about 6 feet long under the power of a steam driven ram. Thats a lot of force. The original rod is hollow, about 6" OD/3"ID. It is made in two sections, so I need to add a bolting flange in the center. I cannot drill all the way down the length of the rod, but I can drill in at the ends to simulate the hollow rod.
Looking at the model its tough to keep the scale in mind, even for me, which is why I got those scale figures made. The D valves for the larger cylinders, which are the double-ported type, are enormous, 61" wide, 57" tall, and 8.75" thick! They are so heavy, even cast with internal spaces and grids, that they put a 'lovekin' valve at the top, which is a piston open to the air through a post at the top, to help hold the weight of them off the eccentrics.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
The reversing shaft and brackets look great! Somewhere in the universe a Master Chief is looking at the pics and saying "All Full Ahead!" :Lol:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
The reversing shaft and brackets look great! Somewhere in the universe a Master Chief is looking at the pics and saying "All Full Ahead!" :Lol:
He can say it, but its not going to go very fast yet! :Lol:
Was just looking at the drawings for the reverse engine. It doesn't show all the little details, but I found a few pages in the old Naval Machinery book from 1946 that shows the internals and how it functions. It uses a steam pisgon for moving the crank arms on the reverse shaft, plus has an oil filled cylinder to slow the movement to prevent it from slamming the crank arms over too fast. Should be interesting to make, I think it will be the next subassembly...
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More reading on the reversing engine in that book. Very interesting setup. I had assumed that the hand lever worked as just a link to the valve, with the hand lever returning to center to stop movements. Its actually a lot more clever, with feedback from the crank arm to turn off the movement when the arm matches the new angle of the lever. A lot like how an RC servo moves and stops to match the angle of the stick on the transmitter, but all mechanical. Those guys were quite clever!
I need to do some more CAD work to make theCAD model match this new information, will post diagrams when that is done...
:cheers:
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Hello Chris,
similar to this reversing machine?
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You are right Chris - we tend to forget how massive this original was ....
I see that the Control / Servo Engine Michael just posted once again uses a rotating Rod - with two different TPI's to manage the movement / position :ThumbsUp:
I presume that the bottom piston is the working and the top piston is the damper - but to be honnest I'm missing the top connection (you can see the bottom connection of the top piston to it's valve) .... :headscratch:
Still following with great interest :cheers: :popcorn: :cheers:
Per
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Hi Michael/Per,
The reverse engine on the Ohio is like this one, from the Naval Machinery book of 1946. Here are the three pages from the book that describe how the reverse engine works:
(https://i.postimg.cc/02pYhLPY/Reverse-Engine-Page-1.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/pV5YJmS1/Reverse-Engine-Page-2.jpg)(https://i.postimg.cc/7PSJL0dD/Reverse-Engine-From-Book.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/gk9ySYFc/Reverse-Engine-Page-3.jpg)
And this is the drawing from the Ohio plans. Ignore the partial drawing at the top/center with the worm gear, that is a portion of a different engine from a different ship - these plans show engines from several different ships on one sheet.
(https://i.postimg.cc/cJjtvmd1/Reverse-Engine-Ohio.jpg)
The one that Michael showed uses the screws at one end to control the valves, the Ohio engine uses a set of levers to do the same job. I think the one with the screws is a version of a Browns Reversing Engine, I don't quite understand how it works yet. The version with the levers is explained well in the three book pages, which match the drawings from the Ohio plans. I am going to model it up in CAD to work out what proportions that I need for the levers to make it work at model size and give the throw that I need. To make it function well at small size I may need to increase the length of the levers a little.
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Before digging into the design of the reversing engine, I had started milling out the bracket to hold it to the IP cylinder frame, finished that up this morning. Three pieces of flat stock to piece it up, each notched and screwed to the next. The first one is a plate angled and relieved on one side to fit onto the vertical frame:
(https://i.postimg.cc/MHdJP9P1/IMG-3426.jpg)
Test fit, the angle matched the back of the frame so the outer face will be vertical.
(https://i.postimg.cc/rFwk0Lsj/IMG-3427.jpg)
The three pieces all bolted up. Once done they will be soldered and screwed together. The angled top/bottom are to help hold the reverse engine in place with its top cylinder above the frame, and so there is room for the connecting rods down to the crank arm on the control rod.
(https://i.postimg.cc/WbYP0fJv/IMG-3429.jpg)
The outer face of the 'fin' will be fit to the engine when it is made.
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Love to watch an artist at work. Man your progress is impressive with all the setups you have to do. Awesome Dog….. :Love:
:cheers:‘Don
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Love to watch an artist at work. Man your progress is impressive with all the setups you have to do. Awesome Dog….. :Love:
:cheers: ‘Don
Thanks Don! :cheers:
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It looks good and it's almost a shame that there's color on it.
Michael
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It looks good and it's almost a shame that there's color on it.
Michael
I know, a shame to cover all that brass, but I like how the engine bed came out, the paint does highlight the shapes better.
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Several sessions in Fusion to work up the CAD model for the reverse engine and all its linkages, making the linkages like what was shown in the book (the Ohio plans mirror this design, but dont show details well enough to draw from directly). I've got is all modelled, picking lever lengths that look about right, but won't know for sure till I spend some time with animating it all. I have the joints designed in and they do the right thing, but I need to go through in detail to determine if the throws are correct, or if I need to tweak the lever lengths. Here is a screen capture of where I am now:
(https://i.postimg.cc/1XqVQNFC/Reverse-Engine-Links.jpg)
All those little flag shapes mark where the revolving joints are (looks kinda lika a Walcherts linkage!) . The little arrows between parallel likes show the sliding joints for the piston and valve rod. If I lock the piston and move the hand lever at the bottom (blue) the linkages move the valve rod. Then, locking the hand lever and moving the piston (like it would since the valve would open in one direction or the other) the linkages move again to recenter the valve and stop the motion, just like it describes in the book. :cartwheel:
Fusion allows for creating animations where I can set movements on certain joints over time, but I'm not sure if it will allow the locking I need. I may need to make two animations - one to move the hand lever, another to show what happens when the piston moves. The goal of this setup is to have the piston move in a distance and direction proportional to the hand lever. That way if the hand lever is moved all the way one way, the linkages will go to all forward, and the other way on the hand lever to reverse, and stay wherever it is when the hand lever is steady.
That will be a good task for tomorrow - right now the brain is overheating, steam out the ears as the brain starts to boil with keeping track of so many things! :insane: Stay tuned!
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As you probably know Chris, the Brown reverse gear has a dash pot...the bottom piston, and it had a hand pump to MANUALLY move the valve The manual operation was for emergencies, as it was steam assist normally.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
I recommend a tall glass of Dr Miller's light barley elixir, or a drumstick ice cream cone, for the overheated neuron / steam out the ears situation. :Lol: :cheers:
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As you probably know Chris, the Brown reverse gear has a dash pot...the bottom piston, and it had a hand pump to MANUALLY move the valve The manual operation was for emergencies, as it was steam assist normally.
I have not been able to find much information about the Brown reverse gear with the screws on the shaft. Is the type I am building also a Browns engine? Do you have any information on how the screw type works? The pages from the book I posted describe the lever type very well, but I don't understand the screw type yet. The book does talk about the manual pump, and mentions that it is quite slow.
I don't know if I will need to fill the lower cylinder with oil, or if I can get away with just air. Either way it will need some experiments to find the opening size between the upper and lower ends.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
I recommend a tall glass of Dr Miller's light barley elixir, or a drumstick ice cream cone, for the overheated neuron / steam out the ears situation. :Lol: :cheers:
An hour out on the porch with a book did the job too!
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You're quite the master with that Fusion, Chris! It would take me a week to get half of what you have there! You have many impressive talents! :popcorn: :ThumbsUp:
Kim
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As you probably know Chris, the Brown reverse gear has a dash pot...the bottom piston, and it had a hand pump to MANUALLY move the valve The manual operation was for emergencies, as it was steam assist normally.
I have not been able to find much information about the Brown reverse gear with the screws on the shaft. Is the type I am building also a Browns engine? Do you have any information on how the screw type works? The pages from the book I posted describe the lever type very well, but I don't understand the screw type yet. The book does talk about the manual pump, and mentions that it is quite slow.
I don't know if I will need to fill the lower cylinder with oil, or if I can get away with just air. Either way it will need some experiments to find the opening size between the upper and lower ends.
I have a book......somewhere.....that discusses how that unit works......I can dig for it, but it's going to take a while i"m afraind
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You're quite the master with that Fusion, Chris! It would take me a week to get half of what you have there! You have many impressive talents! :popcorn: :ThumbsUp:
Kim
Thanks Kim! I've been using it for all the steam and RC models since the Lombard, gotten good at the 5% of what it can do that I use!
:cheers:
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As you probably know Chris, the Brown reverse gear has a dash pot...the bottom piston, and it had a hand pump to MANUALLY move the valve The manual operation was for emergencies, as it was steam assist normally.
I have not been able to find much information about the Brown reverse gear with the screws on the shaft. Is the type I am building also a Browns engine? Do you have any information on how the screw type works? The pages from the book I posted describe the lever type very well, but I don't understand the screw type yet. The book does talk about the manual pump, and mentions that it is quite slow.
I don't know if I will need to fill the lower cylinder with oil, or if I can get away with just air. Either way it will need some experiments to find the opening size between the upper and lower ends.
I have a book......somewhere.....that discusses how that unit works......I can dig for it, but it's going to take a while i"m afraind
No rush! Just one of those 'hows that work?' Things, not important for the task at hand. :cheers:
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Had an idea on how to do the animation in Fusion, and it worked out well. Here is a short video of the linkages/piston in action. It only lets me do a short sequence, so I moved the lever one direction, waited for the piston to settle, then moved it back to the middle position. If you look close you can see the valve on the upper right move up (open), then the piston moves down, which moves the linkages to close the valve again till the handle is moved back, and it raises the piston and closes the valve again. At the size it shows on the forum its tough to see details, best if viewed bigger on Youtube. This is as slow as Fusion let me make it go, would be better if I could slow-motion it more.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lC44dv6Ddmg
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That is really cool, Chris! And it makes the operation VERY clear! :popcorn: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Now even I think I can see what's going on :embarassed:
Kim
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That is really cool, Chris! And it makes the operation VERY clear! :popcorn: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Now even I think I can see what's going on :embarassed:
Kim
Yeah, it is still tough to see with so many links and the small size, but for me it worked out great, I was able to tune the link lengths to give the throw distances needed so it was well worth modelling and animating it all.
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Some more experimenting/tweaking on the reverse engine linkages. One thing I hadn't liked is that I had to add an extra link in the middle to get the link out to the valve rod farther to the right. Solved that by rotating the valve cylinder 90 degrees around to the side of the steam cylinder, so it was above the control lever, more like what the book showed. That got rid of one set of links, all I had to change was the 'meaning' of the ports, swapping between outside and inside admission. I also noticed that at full stroke the piston links were over-rotating the lower link bar, so I moved the pivots farther apart.
Here are two pictures of the new setup, side and front views. This setup should work out much better, and be easier to make.
(https://i.postimg.cc/pVzpkGhN/Reverse-Gear-New2.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/hvLvjvW4/Reverse-Gear-New1.jpg)
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Oh, and made one other change at the same time. The lower link was moving sideways sometimes, then I noticed that on the book drawing it was constrained by the valve rod being in a guide. To get the same effect I added the equivalent of a Panhard bar over to the vertical frame. That solved the issue.
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I had to Google 'Panhard bar' - but I do not see it + I do see four pivot points on the lower bar now and the one to the Left can't be stationary (if it should work) ...?
So what did you do .... is it 'Riding in a slot in the stationary 'Orange Part' ...?
Per :cheers:
Edit + and I don't see any valved in the Oil-Damper :headscratch:
To me those valves also prevent the system from moving, when the operator isn't moving the handle.
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I had to Google 'Panhard bar' - but I do not see it + I do see four pivot points on the lower bar now and the one to the Left can't be stationary (if it should work) ...?
So what did you do .... is it 'Riding in a slot in the stationary 'Orange Part' ...?
Per :cheers:
Edit + and I don't see any valved in the Oil-Damper :headscratch:
To me those valves also prevent the system from moving, when the operator isn't moving the handle.
Hi Per,
A Panhard Bar (or Rod) is used in car suspensions to keep the axle from shifting side to side. Its the only term I could come up with for this item, not really the same usage but same general idea. I just googled the term and came up with millions of hits from the car world.
Anyway, I see that the two images I posted aren't the best, those two views have several links overlapping. Here is an angled view, with the 'panhard' link shown with a red arrow. Its purpose is to keep the three-pivot short link in orange behind it from shifting to the side while allowing it to still tilt and move up/down.
(https://i.postimg.cc/43GDk1sS/Panhard-Bar.jpg)
And you are right, I did not model in the passages for the oil cylinder, since I have no clue yet how large a diameter the passage needs to be for it to function well at model scale. On the original engine, with its huge cylinders (the steam cylinder for this reverse engine is about 15" diameter!) they used actual passages and valves for the oil cylinder. For the model, thats not really practical, so I will either put a bent tube between top and bottom of the oil cylinder, or I might just drill one or more small holes in the piston head for the oil cylinder. Its going to need some experimenting once I make the parts and can see how much resistance it gives. I don't even know yet if it will be actually oil filled or just air with very small passage holes. This reverse engine is kind of a project in itself!
Any other questions, please ask! I'm sure there is lots that I have in mind that I haven't put down in these posts, and bound to be things I haven't thought of yet.
Chris
:cheers: :cheers:
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Oh, and on the original engines, the valve rod for the steam cylinder also moved equivalent valves in the oil cylinder end, so the oil could move as needed. The book mentions that there may optionally be a reservoir tank in the line between the top/bottom end of the oil cylinder, which would keep it full and prevent any air from changing the flow. I am not putting in the valve on the oil end, much too small to be functional at 1:20 scale.
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First - I completely agree, that the Oil-Damper probably don't make much sense on this scale ....
Then again - put a piston inside and drill a small hole in it - so you end up with an Air-Damper. This should be enough to prevent the system from 'Slamming from one end to the other' and give a convincing movement. The piston doesn't have to be metal - it can be plastic, even 3D printed ....
Thank you for the last 3D 'drawing' - this makes it all very clear :cartwheel:
Per :cheers:
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Yesterday I got the frames masked off and a coat of the clear lacquer sprayed on (it sticks much better than regualr paint does to the brass), and this afternoon got them sprayed with the grey engine enamel. Really changes the look! The masking tape is still on in this picture, will show with that removed later after it cures up more.
(https://i.postimg.cc/vmLMTtyp/IMG-3431.jpg)
And after all the CAD work the last couple days, I'm happy enough with the design to start making the reversing engine. Starting with the center frame, here are the main blocks cut to size:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Zqh4JDG8/IMG-3430.jpg)
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The paint sure does change the look! Now they look like a robot army laying there, waiting to be called into action! The reverse rod holders look like their arms! :ROFL:
(https://i.postimg.cc/vmLMTtyp/IMG-3431.jpg)
The center frame for the reversing engine looks positively boring compared to the robot army! (for now anyway!) :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Kim
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The paint sure does change the look! Now they look like a robot army laying there, waiting to be called into action! The reverse rod holders look like their arms! :ROFL:
(https://i.postimg.cc/vmLMTtyp/IMG-3431.jpg)
The center frame for the reversing engine looks positively boring compared to the robot army! (for now anyway!) :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Kim
Isaac Asimov must have designed them! :Lol:
The reversing engine will bolt to one, be sort of its backpack!
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After a couple hours of paint drying time, the 'robot army' has marched itself up onto the engine bed and is standing at attention. Little did they know that the shop elves ran around and bolted their feet down! :Lol: The paint was cured up enough to peel off the masking tape on the crosshead guides and the bearings on the bracket arms.
(https://i.postimg.cc/3wXkCGjT/IMG-3432.jpg)
Closer view of the crosshead guide area. A steel plate on each crosshead will ride in this groove.
(https://i.postimg.cc/FRh7PKGJ/IMG-3433.jpg)
A view from the inboard side. On the second frame from the left you can see the crossbar down around the 'knees', that will hold the control levers for the reverse engine. The engine itself will bolt onto the upper frame above the control rod, with the oil cylinder hanging down outside the rod. There are also still a lot of parts to go on the control rod, sets of crank arms plus the bolting flange in the middle that would connect the two halves of the rod.
(https://i.postimg.cc/C1Jd9V6r/IMG-3436.jpg)
Major milestone to get to this stage. :wine1: I'm going to make the reverse engine, then the pump at the far end of the crankshaft, then move on to the reverse linkages and eccentric arms, followed by the con rods and crossheads. Long way to go before starting on the cylinders and the rest of the support columns for them (two per cylinder, going up from those round pads on the engine bed, plus the angled supports from the little angled tubes on the engine bed up to the bottom of the cylinders...
Thanks for following along, still a long journey on this build! :cheers:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Looking great in a bit of paint Chris! It is a big milestone. :cheers:
Nice to see the robots (frames) doing group weight bar training. Good for morale. :Lol:
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Nice to see the robots (frames) doing group weight bar training. Good for morale. :Lol:
That's what I was thinking - now they're weight lifting! In unison :ROFL:
So, is the reverse control rod only two pieces, rather than four, like the crank shaft?
It sure looks great, Chris! Well done! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
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Yes, the reverse bar is shown on the plans as two pieces bolted together in the middle. Unlike the crankshaft, its a simple hollow rod, the crank arms are bolted on.
As they get stronger I'll add the crank arms to up the exercise! :Lol:
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Looking great Chris! I do think that in the current parlance those would be a droid army, not robots, and it would not be "group training" but "team building" (sorry CNR- ;)). :cheers:
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Looking great Chris! I do think that in the current parlance those would be a droid army, not robots, and it would not be "group training" but "team building" (sorry CNR- ;) ). :cheers:
As long as they don't suffer the same fate as that recent SpaceX rocket, a 'unplanned rapid disassembly ' ! :Lol:
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Roger that! :Lol:
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They stand there majestically, like the stone heads on Easter Island.
Looks good and another section is done.
Michael
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They stand there majestically, like the stone heads on Easter Island.
Looks good and another section is done.
Michael
Android Island? :Lol: Hmmm, new movie with shop elves battling giant android statues... Shooting at them with catapults loaded with flaming balls of magnesium swarf... :lolb:
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The pieces for the reversing engine center frame have been drilled/tapped to bolt them together, and the vertical piece milled to fit over the fin from the mounting flange made the other day.
(https://i.postimg.cc/W3Q4xLR0/IMG-3439.jpg)
Here is where it will sit on the second frame:
(https://i.postimg.cc/QMYCkK04/IMG-3437.jpg)
The frame so far doesn't look anywhere near as refined and fancy as the main vertical frames do - yet. There is still a lot of shaping to do, rounding over corners, narrowing in part of the lower plate, adding columns... Also, there will be a plate either side to make it look a lot more like the original castings did, with curved braces coming out from the vertical column to support the plates (the plates will hold the cylinders).
(https://i.postimg.cc/4dKd840J/IMG-3440.jpg)
:cheers:
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That member of the robot army has something growing out of his face! :Lol:
The reversing engine frame is starting to take shape! :popcorn: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Kim
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While waiting for it to warm up outside for the afternoon, I got the side plates shaped. Cut out the middle, then set up on the rotary table to cut the curves top and bottom...
(https://i.postimg.cc/7PSDqtpP/IMG-3441.jpg)
Here they are set in place. The vertical inside corners were notched back to give them a little set-back from the edge of the plates.
(https://i.postimg.cc/9FV20thd/IMG-3442.jpg)
Shaping up!
Time to head outside for the afternoon... :cheers:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
The power reverser is a project on its' own! Great start. :cheers:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
The power reverser is a project on its' own! Great start. :cheers:
Thanks Jeff! Good way to recharge by building a small engine and getting it going in the middle of the big project! :)
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It finally started getting a bit cool outside (around here in spring afternoons the wind tends to swing around out of the north, bringing a cooler breeze off Lake Ontario) so I wandered back into the shop and did another step. The original plans show the side plates as having an overhanging flange, sort of like an I-beam, so I set up with a 1/16" end mill and grooved next to the curved edges. A guide line was drawn on with a felt tip pen, then that was 'traced' with the end mill, freehanding the handwheels. Same path on all four faces.
(https://i.postimg.cc/wTp7cmh2/IMG-3445.jpg)
Then another groove near the back edge, straight down the length, then a little back and forth at either end to remove the field between the grooves.
(https://i.postimg.cc/4NQn8xPg/IMG-3446.jpg)
Here are the parts so far. Still need to drill some holes to hold them in place on the frame. Stu Perviser seems to approve!
(https://i.postimg.cc/qvBqWHDC/IMG-3447.jpg)
Still a lot of corners to round over, and I need to add the support columns at the outside corners where the knees meet the plates. Then I can start laying out the holes for the cylinders.
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That's some pretty astounding free-hand turning there, Chris! :popcorn: :ThumbsUp:
You must have been the master of the Etch-a-sketch!
Kim
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That's some pretty astounding free-hand turning there, Chris! :popcorn: :ThumbsUp:
You must have been the master of the Etch-a-sketch!
Kim
Not at all, as a kid I was terrible at etchasketch! Also couldn't draw worth a darn, though as an adult I worked on the drawing skills when I took up scrimshaw, got to where I could do decent ships and animals, though with a lot of erasers!
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With the side brackets drilled/tapped to hold them in the frames, next was to take the top/bottom plates off, bolt them together to keep them in alignment, and bore through for the cylinder/piston openings.
(https://i.postimg.cc/QdRC64P2/IMG-3448.jpg)
I'm leaving those plates all aligned in the 4-jaw while I get the cylinders and caps made, so I can drill for the screws to hold the cylinder/plates together all in one go. Here are the stack of rough-cut bars for the cylinders and caps, ready for turning to dimensions. The upper cap for the oil cylinder will be the same OD as the steam cylinder, which makes it fit the same holes in the plates.
(https://i.postimg.cc/y8JWy4fh/IMG-3449.jpg)
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With all these "LARGE" projects that you've been working on, the Pumping Engine, the Marion, the Mann steam truck, and the Lombard, just to name a FEW - and now a BATTLESHIP engine... I'm amazed that the elves haven't INSISTED that you install a bridge crane in their shop so they can move the parts around.
Don
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With all these "LARGE" projects that you've been working on, the Pumping Engine, the Marion, the Mann steam truck, and the Lombard, just to name a FEW - and now a BATTLESHIP engine... I'm amazed that the elves haven't INSISTED that you install a bridge crane in their shop so they can move the parts around.
Don
They are holding out for a travel crane on tracks!
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With all these "LARGE" projects that you've been working on, the Pumping Engine, the Marion, the Mann steam truck, and the Lombard, just to name a FEW - and now a BATTLESHIP engine... I'm amazed that the elves haven't INSISTED that you install a bridge crane in their shop so they can move the parts around.
Don
They are holding out for a travel crane on tracks!
That may explain why my shop gnomes were sketching up the rig in the attached jpeg, after a late night call from (I suspect) your shop elves..... :Lol:
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With all these "LARGE" projects that you've been working on, the Pumping Engine, the Marion, the Mann steam truck, and the Lombard, just to name a FEW - and now a BATTLESHIP engine... I'm amazed that the elves haven't INSISTED that you install a bridge crane in their shop so they can move the parts around.
Don
They are holding out for a travel crane on tracks!
That may explain why my shop gnomes were sketching up the rig in the attached jpeg, after a late night call from (I suspect) your shop elves..... :Lol:
Ooohhh, that looks like fun! I'll take two. One model, one full size!
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oh, I only know it with an 8.8 on the hook........😉
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oh, I only know it with an 8.8 on the hook........😉
Whats an 8.8?
CNR, is that vehicle your drawing?
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No Chris, it was from a plastic modeling website, not sure who the drawing author was. Might be a shop gnome original. :shrug: Tamiya do an excellent 1/35 scale plastic kit for the basic ww2 FAMO halftrack without the crane, Sd.Kfz 9 in case you were interested. The kit was first issued in 1999. I think other modelers started with that kit and scratchbuilt the crane per the drawing. :cheers:
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No Chris, it was from a plastic modeling website, not sure who the drawing author was. Might be a shop gnome original. :shrug: Tamiya do an excellent 1/35 scale plastic kit for the basic ww2 FAMO halftrack without the crane, Sd.Kfz 9 in case you were interested. The kit was first issued in 1999. I think other modelers started with that kit and scratchbuilt the crane per the drawing. :cheers:
Looks like they still make that kit and several other half-tracks!
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Hello Chris, I know this vehicle for towing the 8.8 centimeter flak (anti-aircraft gun).
It looks like there is everything together as a plastic model.
Michael
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Some fantastic free hand milling there, something I would not attempt yet as still learning the basics.
As a side not re the halftracks you could go with an American design
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Hello Chris, I know this vehicle for towing the 8.8 centimeter flak (anti-aircraft gun).
It looks like there is everything together as a plastic model.
Michael
Ah - over here we know those guns as 88mm rather than 8.8cm, thats why I didn't recognize what you meant right away! :wallbang:
:cheers:
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A bunch of time on the lathe yesterday and this morning, got the steam cylinder for the reversing engine bored out
(https://i.postimg.cc/d3Rdc9J4/IMG-3450.jpg)
then over to the mill to drill the end holes in it and also the end caps
(https://i.postimg.cc/pXxzY3B7/IMG-3451.jpg)
then back to the lathe to step in the side of the cylinder
(https://i.postimg.cc/G3vvDbvG/IMG-3452.jpg)
Also bored/drilled the oil cylinder, though it does not get the steps on the side. Here it is test assembled on the engine. You can see Stu down in the lower left for scale - the reverse engine itself is huge, the piston is 15.94" in diameter on the original engine! And its just used like a hydraulic ram would be today...
(https://i.postimg.cc/L88PGfw3/IMG-3459.jpg)
Still lots to do on it. Need to do more rounding on the frame parts, make the support columns between the horizontal plates, make the pistons and the crosshead in the center of the piston rods, then can start in on the valve assembly for the steam cylinder and finally the control linkages and the crank arms.
:cheers:
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OK, the function of the reversing engine I can understand. What was the oil cylinder used for? To control how fast the main engine was able to be reversed?
Or am I missing something that should be glaringly obvious if I was more familiar with large steam engines.
Don
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OK, the function of the reversing engine I can understand. What was the oil cylinder used for? To control how fast the main engine was able to be reversed?
Or am I missing something that should be glaringly obvious if I was more familiar with large steam engines.
Don
Exactly. The oil filled cylinder acts like a shock absorber on a car, slowing the movement so it wouldn't slam the cylinder and the reverse links over too fadt. There is a small passage between the ends of the pil cylinder for the oil, original one had valves to control it. Also it acted as a backup to the steam cylinder with a hand operated oil pump. This setup was only needed due to the size of the engine and the reverse links. The d valves on the bigger cylinders were around five feet across!
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
The power reverse looks great! The whole engine is truly "large scale machinery" even by today's standards of "big stuff". :cheers:
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I didn't think the servo motor was that big.
It looks good on the main machine.
In the description of the German reversing machine it is said that the steam piston should always be under steam pressure. But only when driving ahead. Then the piston slightly constantly presses against the joints and they do not rattle.
I don't think you have to do this on a model scale.
Michael
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I didn't think the servo motor was that big.
It looks good on the main machine.
In the description of the German reversing machine it is said that the steam piston should always be under steam pressure. But only when driving ahead. Then the piston slightly constantly presses against the joints and they do not rattle.
I don't think you have to do this on a model scale.
Michael
Interesting detail! On a small engine like the one on Sabino, there was a little screw lever that the engineer could tighten down on the arched guide bar to hold the lever in place. For something this big, makes sense to have a little pressure on to keep it from vibrating around.
:cheers:
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Either that back-up hand pump on the oil cylinder was pretty large, or they had to pump like crazy.... Cause when the Cap'n says he wants Full Reverse, he usually wants it NOW.
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Either that back-up hand pump on the oil cylinder was pretty large, or they had to pump like crazy.... Cause when the Cap'n says he wants Full Reverse, he usually wants it NOW.
The book does say the hand pump was slow, doesn't say how slow, sure there would have been some choice phrases from the bridge! The oil cylinder is a lot smaller diameter, but thats still a lot of volume!
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the 82ft cutter I was on had hydrolic starters on the main engines, a electric hydro pump built up pressure in a series of accumilator bottles that spun the starter that turned over the V12 engine,, if there was no power there was a hand pump,, 3 people taking 10 minutes turns on the pump provided enough pressure for about 2 to 3 engine revolutions,,
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Made up the packing gland caps for the reversing engine cylinders, ganged up both on the end of one bar. The slots were cut in with a parting tool, then over to the mill to drill the screw holes and to mill the sides off.
(https://i.postimg.cc/wT5JfNc0/IMG-3460.jpg)
Back to the lathe to part them off, and got them assembled onto the cylinder caps. An o-ring in the recess in the caps forms the seal. I like to drill the shaft holes through the caps and glands slightly oversize so the shaft can self center on the o ring seal and piston head seal.
(https://i.postimg.cc/6p9ZDQMw/IMG-3461.jpg)
Next turned up the piston heads. They sit against a shoulder on the ends of the rods, and have a 4-40 screw to keep them in place. On final assembly I'll put in a little loctite too.
(https://i.postimg.cc/W1XZjPyZ/IMG-3462.jpg)
Since the two pistons rods join up end to end in the middle of the engine, and the crosshead needs to fit in there as well, deciding how to make things so it can all be assembled took a little thought. There are several ways it could have been done, the way I settled on was to have the two piston rods as separate pieces joined in the middle with a length of threaded rod, joint inside the crosshead. The ends of the rods have shoulders to hold the crosshead from slipping, plus I drilled/tapped for a couple set screws in the crosshead to keep the rods from unscrewing from each other. I still need to make the cross bars that come out of the crosshead, each bar extending out to hold the end of the links down to the crank arms on the big horizontal shaft. Those bars will be silver soldered onto the crosshead since they will have a lot of force acting to the sides. The soldering will be done with the piston rods removed from the crosshead. It's going to be a bit fiddly to do the final assembly on all the parts, but shouldn't be too bad.
(https://i.postimg.cc/0NjwyBgB/IMG-3465.jpg)
Good place to break for the morning, getting really nice outside today!
:cheers:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
The crosshead / piston rod joint design sounds like a good approach. I imagine the trick will be keeping the piston rods coaxial / aligned while making up the joint. Would some custom V blocks on a base plate fit around the glands that would be loose on the rod before final assy? If they fit, that might be a way to line them up. You are probably 3 steps ahead of me at this point...... :Lol:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
The crosshead / piston rod joint design sounds like a good approach. I imagine the trick will be keeping the piston rods coaxial / aligned while making up the joint. Would some custom V blocks on a base plate fit around the glands that would be loose on the rod before final assy? If they fit, that might be a way to line them up. You are probably 3 steps ahead of me at this point...... :Lol:
The vertical holes in the crosshead were drilled through on the lathe, so they are co-axial, and the ends of the piston rods were turned down to be a close fit on those holes, with a shoulder that fits at the ends of the crosshead. A threaded rod (screw with head cut off after loctiting it into the end of one of the rods) holds the two rods end to end, so everything self aligns on assembly. Close fits all round seem to be working, if I spin the assembled parts I'm not seeing any wobble at the other end. All seems to be good, and if it is off a thou somewhere the o-rings have enough give to compensate. Fortunately this is not a high speed rotating engine, just a slow actuating movement, and it appears to be good enough so far. The real test will be on final assembly to see if it all still moves. Worst case, I can always shim one of the cylinders.
:cheers:
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Great progress on the reversing engine! :popcorn: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
There are a lot of interesting design considerations for this model. It's fascinating to see how you solve them, Chris.
Kim
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Great progress on the reversing engine! :popcorn: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
There are a lot of interesting design considerations for this model. It's fascinating to see how you solve them, Chris.
Kim
Thanks Kim! All part of the fun!
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Yesterday afternoon I got the crosshead side bars made, silver soldered on and cleaned up. They have a shoulder at each outer end, and are drilled/tapped in the ends for bolts to keep the links down to the crank arms in place. All looks straight, so I assembled them onto the reverse engine. The alignment was good, but I did have to mill away some of the thick center bar in the frame so I could get wrenches in to turn the cylinder cap screws (something I keep forgetting to allow for in design :hammerbash: )
(https://i.postimg.cc/MGbdCYfT/IMG-3466.jpg)
In running the piston back and forth by hand I could feel the compression in the cylinder (ports are not drilled yet), and I had to loosen the end caps to get a better feel for the friction in the glands/pistons. So, all that is good! Time to move on to the valves...
The original uses a small (relative to the cylinder size anyway) spool valve (also called a piston valve by some) to control the steam flow. At 1:20 scale, the original size would be super tiny and impractical, so I need to make it larger to work on the model. One thing I have struggled with on previous models is small diameter spool valves - the tolerances are very tight to get the spool rod to move yet hold pressure when in the off position. On spool valves controlling cylinders from the eccentrics, this has not been a big problem, just has a bit of blow by in the valve to the exhaust, but it still functions well. For this application, the spool valve needs to seal well in the off position, where it spends most of its time.
Lots of thinking later, some arrangements drawn up in CAD and thrown out lots of sketches, I settled on trying out a new (to me anyway) arrangement using two sets of ports and a double-tapered valve rod sealed with o rings. Here is a sketch I came up with in Fusion:
(https://i.postimg.cc/V62gMZ3K/HP-Spool-Valve.jpg)
This is not to scale, but it shows the parts. There would be two of these sets (though just one center steam inlet), one for each end of the cylinder. The spool valve has an OD that fits with and seals to the o rings, and the center is tapered down so that when it is moved up or down, the tapered area goes past the o ring and allows pressure to flow between the cylinder end port and either the steam or exhaust ports. Pretty simple setup, and seems like it should work. I doubt this is something really new, but it is to me - don't know exactly what this style valve is called, will call it a double-spool valve for now till I learn different!
The way I drew it would work, but there are too many little fiddly pieces to fit and seal up. Since the assembly would be near the ends of the valve body, I had the idea of cutting the internal grooves with a boring tool that was reground on the end to give a straight sided slot. Here is the test I came up with:
(https://i.postimg.cc/25f09t6M/IMG-3468.jpg)
The cutter in the middle started out as a standard small boring head cutter, which normally has a cutter on the end about twice as wide. It was cut back on the inner end by the shank using a diamond coated bur in my air-powered high speed handpiece, which is a lot like the ones your dentist uses to grind teeth and torture you. :paranoia: I trimmed back the cutter to just under the width of the o ring. The nice thing about the diamond burs is that they don't generate a lot of heat, so the hardness on the cutter tip was not ruined. The bur I used was football (American style) shaped and about 2mm diameter. I drilled a hole in the test piece with a E size drill, which works out to be about the same as the center of the o ring wall. The rod I'll be using is .1875" diameter, and the ring is 1/16 cross section. This combination leaves a gap between the rod and the side walls like shown in the first diagram. Its fairly small, but for this application I don't need or want a huge flow rate to the cylinder, high pressure but low flow will help in moving the piston slowly as is needed for this setup. The cutter has enough reach to make the two internal grooves far enough apart and far enough in from the end for the ports. Here it is with the rod test fit:
(https://i.postimg.cc/rF3nxsL8/IMG-3470.jpg)
The hole in the test piece didn't go all the way through, and there is some compression when running the rod in. When pulling the rod out there is a nice wine-cork-pop sound so I know it is sealing well. To get the o ring in and out of the internal groove takes a little fiddling with the end of a dental pick, I ran the ring down into the hole past the groove then pulled it back with the pick, pushing one side into the groove then working around the circumference to get it all seated in the hole. Reverse that to get it back out...
(https://i.postimg.cc/bwn6TPz1/IMG-3471.jpg)
So far so good, going to make up one set to test it out with the compressor before committing to the real valve body with one set at each end. On the original drawings its hard to tell if the valve body is up next to the steam cylinder or down by the hand lever with pipes up to the cylinder. I have not decided which way I'll do it, will make the test piece first and then decide where to mount it. It still needs to be in line with the linkages up to the cylinders for the auto-stop mechanism to work properly.
Should be an interesting couple of days! :cheers:
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:NotWorthy: :praise2:
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:NotWorthy: :praise2:
Thanks! :cheers:
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Well, that was a lot easier than I thought it would be! Took a length of brass bar, drilled it with 'E' size drill, used the new grooving tool mentioned earlier and made the grooves for the o-rings, 0.325 on centers for each set, 0.033" depth of cut and 0.005" movement down the length to get the groooves wide enough for the rings (I am mentioning these dimensions here in case I lose my notes kept with the cutter, not to bore you to tears). Put in the rings and added some holes on the sides for the ports.
Here is the valve body - the fitting on the left is for the steam inlet (hooked to compressor tube), the one marked with red arrow goes to the cylinder, the one marked with green arrow is the exhaust. Same pattern at other end of the valve body.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ht11t1c7/IMG-3474.jpg)
And this is the valve rod, it has two tapered sections, one for each end section. The arrows mark the start/end of the tapered area that make the valve work. The little step above the arrows is outside the valve body, I turned down the rod slightly inside the valve to make it easier to move. With the full diameter rod it took a little too much force to move given the four o rings on it, with one or two it would have been fine.
(https://i.postimg.cc/2SDxYKRD/IMG-3475.jpg)
And then a quick video to show that yup, it does work! It seals just fine even with 60 psi, no leaks when in the off position. Quite happy with that, now that I know this setup will work, I'll go ahead and get the end caps and piping made to connect it to the cylinder.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LcyQ5jlv94
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
The valve works great, and Stu Pervisor seems happy with the reverser assembly. Looks great! :cheers:
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Beautiful design and crisp execution, Chris! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Kim
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That does really seal up very well Chris :ThumbsUp:
Per :cheers:
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That's a clever bit of design and some nice R&D prototyping, Chris. A satisfying solution to a tricky problem! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
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Thanks guys!
I've gotten things assembled, after making a couple short sections of pipe and a mounting bracket for the valve body. Here is a quick video with the piston moving. I used small openings on the steam inlets, which keep the speed down, think I may need to put some restriction on the exhaust pipes to see if that will slow it some more. The oil cylinder is still empty, I'd rather not fill that and risk long term leaks from there making a mess on the engine base, but that is still an option. This test was run with the compressor set to 60psi.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzUCc0ugRvE
With things moving well, I've taken the brass valve body and mounting base off to get them painted. Here is a shot with the front columns in on the frame as well as the mounting bracket for the valve body (upper right in the picture, sticking out from the frame by the end of the column).
(https://i.postimg.cc/5yw1kd7X/IMG-3480.jpg)
Guess the next steps will be to start in on the crank arms and linkages, and start on the control linkages down to the hand lever. This afternoon we are off to the local pool for the last RC submarine run of the season, next week starts the outdoor runs at the pond since spring is here!
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Oh, and I tried holding back the crosshead while opening the valve, it has a LOT of force. Did the math, and at 60psi input air, it has about 26 pounds of force on the piston. Should be plenty to move the linkages!
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Splendid :praise2: :praise2:
Even the reversing engine is quite a beast :ThumbsUp: :wine1:
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Wow! It really snaps to, doesn't it? :popcorn: :popcorn:
It would be cool to fill it with oil. But yeah, could be messy.
Kim
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Wow! It really snaps to, doesn't it? :popcorn: :popcorn:
It would be cool to fill it with oil. But yeah, could be messy.
Kim
Right now there is no gasket sealing the oil cylinder ends, going to try that and see what difference it makes. With a 3/4" diameter piston at 60 psi, without the oil cylinder there it would slam like the steam hammer does!
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: re the reverser!
Enjoy the floodings and pump outs at the pool! :Lol:
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Yesterday afternoon I got the parts re-assembled after painting, looking quite different:
(https://i.postimg.cc/DyGSry9n/IMG-3484.jpg)
This morning I tried adding the gaskets to the oil cylinder but left it just air filled, slight difference but not enough. So, tried another simple change - adding a restrictor nozzle to the air line going into the valve body. Doing this slows down the flow of air in, but still allows full pressure to build up on the piston, just slower, so it doesn't snap the piston end to end so quickly. I've done the same on other normal engines, some with nozzles and some with a needle valve, works great for adjusting running speed while still running on full pressure. I first tried a #60 drill, which if memory serves is about .046", but that was not slow enough. So, tried another one with a #73 drill at .024". That is looking quite good, I'll stop there for now till the rest of the linkages are in place since the extra friction of the control rod and all the bearings it goes through may slow it down a little more.
Here is a quick video clip with the restrictor nozzle in place, at a full 60 psi (realized previous test was yesterday only at 40psi). Slows it down nicely, still full force on the piston.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oVKR203qqbU
With the valve sorted out, I moved on to the crank arms that take the movement from the piston and transfer it to rotation of the control rod that runs down the length of the engine. One of these will be on either side of the reversing engine, with links from the crosshead ends down to these cranks. Started out by drilling/reaming the holes. One has an extra hole between the ends, that one is for the link down to the control levers.
(https://i.postimg.cc/qqPgP9CP/IMG-3481.jpg)
Tapered in the sides, using rods in the end holes to position the pieces
(https://i.postimg.cc/SQ3XYztg/IMG-3482.jpg)
Here is where they will sit on the engine
(https://i.postimg.cc/cLM6zk1z/IMG-3486.jpg)
The links after rounding the ends and broaching the keyways. To make the broaching easier I took out the bulk of the material in the opening with a small end mill, then squared it up with a 1/8" broach using the arbor press.
(https://i.postimg.cc/wjd70YzJ/IMG-3487.jpg)
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Well done. And so fast!
If the cylinder moves the shaft with the reversal of all cylinders, it will definitely slow down even more.
Michael
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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More work done on the cranks for the reversing shaft, milled out recesses on both sides of each one, held in the 4-jaw on the rotary table to angle it back and forth:
(https://i.postimg.cc/RVyfYkgd/IMG-3488.jpg)
Also milled the keyways into the shaft. Made these long enough to extend over to the brackets holding the shaft on the IP frame to keep the shaft from working its way sideways.
(https://i.postimg.cc/TPXbdrMW/IMG-3489.jpg)
Test fit the cranks...
(https://i.postimg.cc/KzGgLxYG/IMG-3490.jpg)
And made up the links to connect the cranks to the crosshead on the engine. The steel plates at the ends of the shafts are silver soldered on, and the outer plates are both threaded themselves and have the nut on the screw for looks.
(https://i.postimg.cc/x1mHV672/IMG-3493.jpg)
And of course ran a test of the movement... :cartwheel:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXCJWiYoKbw
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It seems like you are moving in the right direction .... or can't decide if it should be Forward or Back :LittleDevil:
Per :cheers: :popcorn:
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It seems like you are moving in the right direction .... or can't decide if it should be Forward or Back :LittleDevil:
Per :cheers: :popcorn:
Getting dizzy! :Jester:
Been looking at the drawings for the control levers, trying to decide on the brackets/etc needed to hold them. Keep finding new little tidbits of information in the original drawings that help. Also was looking at the crank arms that go next to each cylinder to move the reverse links for each valve, and see that they used the same adjustable link setup that the Naval Machinery book shows great details for, thats a big help. Those crank arms with the adjustable connections on the ends are going to be interesting, stay tuned on those (after the control levers).
:cheers:
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Damn Dog that is just too cool. She’s a making progress……. :Love:
:cheers:
Don
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Damn Dog that is just too cool. She’s a making progress……. :Love:
:cheers:
Don
Thanks Don! :cheers:
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That has a very satisfying movement to it, doesn't it? :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Well done there, Chris!
Kim
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This is SO awesome!
Dave
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That has a very satisfying movement to it, doesn't it? :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Well done there, Chris!
Kim
Thanks Kim! Always great to see things moving like they should! :cheers:
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This is SO awesome!
Dave
Thanks Dave!
A long way from when you first showed me these plans out in your driveway isn't it! ... that can't be right - just checked on the timing, that was just last August! Wow. Thanks SO much for taking the time to make me a copy of them!
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :cheers:
Any elves asking for rides on the lever yet? :Lol: (valuable lesson about inertia there - when the bottom drops out!)
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :cheers:
Any elves asking for rides on the lever yet? :Lol: (valuable lesson about inertia there - when the bottom drops out!)
And they thought it was an Elf-a-pult to get them up to the high shelf! I ran it down like you said, dropped them in the pickle tank! :LittleDevil:
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Some fun in the CAD app this evening. Started with the diagrams from the Naval Machinery book, plus some pictures of engines with this setup from a book that Michael told me about last year:
(https://i.postimg.cc/8cwTffC4/Reverse-Engine-Page-1.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/9QDczMHP/Reverse-Engine-Page-2.jpg)
and drew up this version for the model:
(https://i.postimg.cc/NFQg0kQL/Reverse-Crank-Arms.jpg)
These crank arms take the motion from the shaft running along the side of the engine and move the reverse links. The reason for the adjustment at the bottom is to let them balance the positions of the valves on each cylinder relative to each other for best running while the engine is operating, without taking anything apart. Pretty clever arrangment. For the model version, the adjusting screw works out for a 5-40 thread, plenty strong for the model links. The length of the throw for the model is about 1.4". There will be one of these per cylinder, with a link rod out to the center of the curved reverse link on each end of the crossbar.
I am not starting on making this next, first I want to make the control linkages for the reversing engine - this just made a good diversion plus I'd found pictures in the books of the real thing, which helped understand the diagrams.
Chris
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That's a cool little mechanism. These guys were pretty smart! 8) :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Kim
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Started in on the links for the reverse controls, straightforward milling/drilling on short bits of tool steel bar. So far I have the downlink from the valve rod and the horizontal pivot bar made. Next will be the downlink from the crank arm and the panhard-type bar, then the control lever and its mount.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Hkv2wbsN/IMG-3497.jpg)
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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It looks good! 👍
I can't believe how much detail you put into it.
Greetings Michael
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Thanks Jeff/Michael!
And, It WORKS! :whoohoo: I got the control links mostly finished, still some fasteners to make and need to shape the handle lever better than the rectangular plate it is now, but it was enough to test to see if the linkage spacings would work. And they do. :cartwheel: The real thing would be a more compact unit, but thats part of the compromise of scaling something down this far. Note that as the lever moves and stops, so does the cylinder and the crank arm, just like a proportional servo on a radio control system. When I first saw it, I didn't realize that it worked that way, but they were quite clever in the original designs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JefVtA71h5s
More pictures tomorrow after some finishing work on the hand lever and adding some screws to keep the linkage from sliding off...
:wine1:
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That makes a lot more sense than rocketing from one end to the other. Lovely.
Wilf
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Nice smooth control action Chris! :cheers:
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Very cool! 8) :popcorn: :popcorn:
That mechanism works really nicely, Chris!
Kim
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Fantastic to see it working so well :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Per :cheers:
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Thanks guys! I am very pleased with how it works, better than I expected. Did some more work on it this morning, got the hand lever shaped, made the link from that up to the middle linkage slightly longer since it was maxing out just a little too soon, and did some trimming up at the crosshead to get the overall travel up to spec. Here is a quick video of it in action. First couple moves I stopped partway along to show that it does start/stop with the lever.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVK4DpVeEuY
and a couple more pictures of the details. The hand lever...
(https://i.postimg.cc/cHCm87zD/IMG-3503.jpg)
and both sides of the middle linkages
(https://i.postimg.cc/85YbdJQT/IMG-3504.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/zvRFxz8K/IMG-3505.jpg)
As the hand lever goes up, the lever to the piston doesn't move so the lever up to the valve (closer to camera) gets pushed up, opening the valve. That starts the piston moving up, raising the far end of the middle link. That makes the middle link pivot on the hand lever position till it pulls the valve lever back down and it closes, stopping the piston. Opposite everything when the hand lever goes the other way. Neat feedback loop so the piston mirrors the hand lever but under steam (or air) power.
That finishes up the reversing engine, next up is to make the crank arms that will push the Stephenson link bars back and forth above the eccentrics. I took some measurements of the actual movement using the height marking gauge that I picked up after seeing it over on Kim's build of the Kozo locomotive. First use of a new tool! :cartwheel: With the actual max movement measured, I could double check the plans for the length of the rest of the crank arms before making them, so I know that I'll get the travel needed to the reverse links.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Nice hand lever, Chris! And great explanation of how it works. I had to watch the video 4-5 times and keep rereading your explanation, but I think I've got it now! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Very cool!
Kim
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Thanks guys! Kim, the pages I posted in reply 1071 back on May 6 are from the Naval Machinery book, they give a nice set of diagrams with text on how things work as well. It took me a while to see what was happening with the links too!
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One more session in the shop today, I laid out the four crank arms and cut the blanks from a length of 1/4"x1" stainless bar stock. They were stacked up and the ends trimmed. A couple of parallel clamps were used to keep them aligned when flipping them around for the other end.
(https://i.postimg.cc/rwdgmNvQ/IMG-3510.jpg)
Still stacked together from the trimming (not sure yet on the order of things/jigs needed, so keeping them together for now) the outline of one crank arm was drawn on to make it easier to keep things straight as machining starts.
(https://i.postimg.cc/P5By88Hh/IMG-3512.jpg)
Likely will set up a finger clamp or something to let me hold each peice for cutting in a repeatable way. Good place to break and come back fresh!
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looking great, what year is the naval machinery book?
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looking great, what year is the naval machinery book?
The copy I have is from 1946. I found an old print copy but there is also one on Google Books you can download the pdf of for free, though that one has a lot of writing in it. Go to google books and search for Naval Machinery 1946. There are multiple hits, look for the one with full reading, several other listings are just info about it.
The book is from a multiple volume set, though the table of contents is for the entire set. This volume has sections on valves, condensers, pumps, and reciprocating steam engines. The other volumes cover boilers and turbines.
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Hello Chris,
I was on the steamship "Stettin" many years ago and I think they also use such a machine for reversing the machine. You have to introduce yourself in the video at about 26.00.
You can see the machine working there.
Michael
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoICdgek1to
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Great video Michael! Lots of details, I am going to be taking some still photos from it for reference. The second part has a brief look at the steering engine as well! Thanks!!
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Started shaping the crank arms. Am running through all four of them on each operation before setting up for the next, so they all come out the same. First drilled/reamed the hole for the shaft
(https://i.postimg.cc/KjmwHcZK/IMG-3514.jpg)
then used a 1/8" end mill to take out most of the material for the keyway
(https://i.postimg.cc/VLL29NGp/IMG-3515.jpg)
which made broaching the keyway go very easily since it just had to knock out the corners
(https://i.postimg.cc/7PNpTzVS/IMG-3516.jpg)
then setup up the spare vise on the rotating base so the flat angled end of the part was square to the mill table, and cut back the ends of the angled section.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Znj2tkRw/IMG-3518.jpg)
Next step is to cut out the opening for the moving cross shaft...
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Great start on the crank arms, Chris! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Kim
PS Postimg seems to be really struggling this morning. I had to re-load 3-4 times to see all the pics. It seems to get slow from time to time :(
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Great start on the crank arms, Chris! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Kim
PS Postimg seems to be really struggling this morning. I had to re-load 3-4 times to see all the pics. It seems to get slow from time to time :(
Thanks Kim!
That happens from time to time - Postimg (my image host) seems to get drunk and trip over its cord and yank the plug from the wall occasionally. Sometimes I can see posted images, but can't upload new ones for an hour or so. But, its free!
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Chain drilled the slots in the outer ends of the crank arms, then used a small end mill to connect the holes and take the slots out to size:
(https://i.postimg.cc/T1xtCTVK/IMG-3519.jpg)
Drilled the holes for the adjustment rod through the length of the slots. Got first one all lined up and set the work stop so the rest would be quickly aligned. The square end of the opposite side is standing on a parallel bar which was removed when the drill got to the bottom end.
(https://i.postimg.cc/SRGDPHdD/IMG-3520.jpg)
Then started shaping the profiles of the crank arms on the rotary table, one bolt through the shaft hole in the center of the table, another out in the rectangular slot, using a pair of little lipped sleeves for a close fit.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Prt6Drfc/IMG-3522.jpg)
Closer look at the final shape with next one ready to go:
(https://i.postimg.cc/tC2BNQYg/IMG-3523.jpg)
So far two done, two more to profile.
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Broach, files, EDM, or none of the above for the corners of the slots? (askin fer a friend) :Lol:
The arms look great! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Broach, files, EDM, or none of the above for the corners of the slots? (askin fer a friend) :Lol:
The arms look great! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
None of the above, yet. They were milled with a 1/8" cutter so still small radius inside the corners. Once the rest of the profiling is done I'll square them up with a file as part of the final cleanup and deburring. The crossbars will have a square cross section in the center, so they'll need the slots squared too. The slots are a 1/4" width, will be making the crossbars from 1/4" square bar.
Hmm, and your 'friend' looks an awful lot like you! :ROFL:
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Caught, again..... :paranoia: :Lol:
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Got the crank arm sides recessed...
(https://i.postimg.cc/yxS8zfPR/IMG-3524.jpg)
and filed up the inside corners. Here are the completed parts (minus the moving crossbars)
(https://i.postimg.cc/4nkN4zLS/IMG-3525.jpg)
This is where they will go, along the length of the reverse shaft, one by each cylinder valve section
(https://i.postimg.cc/xCZ1hrKY/IMG-3526.jpg)
Next will be to start making the crossbars, then the threaded rods and handwheels, finally adding the keyways to the reverse shaft...
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Very cool! I get it now - those long slots are where that adjustment gizmo is going to be! That's just very clever! :popcorn:
Kim
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
File those arms under "looking great!" :Lol: very nice job Chris!
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As a reminder, here is what the reverse mechanism looks like in general. This is a drawing from the Naval Machinery book, so the framework and valve rod looks different, but the eccentrics/links/shaft are all the same layout. Note that the radius rods 'D' go to the middle of the link arcs, not the end as is common in a lot of engines. In the book it mentions that they normally go to the 'ahead' end unless it is desired to have the performance the same between 'ahead' and 'astern', balancing the slight error introduced by the rods. This engine uses the 'naval' style link with the pivots for the eccentric arms and for the sliding end on the valve rod all in the same radius from the eccentric, which is different than what is seen on a lot of models with a tab sticking down from the link with a hold for the arm to bolt to. The naval style has less errors/wobbles from that geometry too. It does have more small parts to make though.
(https://i.postimg.cc/9QDczMHP/Reverse-Engine-Page-2.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/8cwTffC4/Reverse-Engine-Page-1.jpg)
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
File those arms under "looking great!" :Lol: very nice job Chris!
So now I need to make elbows, hands, etc? :Jester:
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That's awesome Chris!! Man your cranking this out!
I'm working all weekend!....13 hours today
more tomorrow :hellno:
Dave
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Well probably, if you are doing the engine room piping, and / or an engine telegraph or engine room clock.... :thinking: :Lol:
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That's awesome Chris!! Man your cranking this out!
I'm working all weekend!....13 hours today
more tomorrow :hellno:
Dave
Yuck! Hope you get some time and good weather to work on your own projects soon!
Edit: wait, 'crank'ing this out.., :facepalm2:
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Well probably, if you are doing the engine room piping, and / or an engine telegraph or engine room clock.... :thinking: :Lol:
Wow, a clock at this scale... :paranoia: An engine room telegraph would look great next to the valves and levers though... hmm...
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Don't want to distract you at all, but "all ahead full" :Lol:
(brrriiinng brrrriiing)
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Don't want to distract you at all, but "all ahead full" :Lol:
(brrriiinng brrrriiing)
Ahead Full! I think...
(https://i.postimg.cc/cJcGCTNV/ship-collision.jpg)
Oh, wait, the other ahead, um, er, oh yeah, Astern Full! Thats it! :lolb:
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After the captain of the red ship went ashore, he's been a regular guest on the Wham Bam Dashcam channel in Youtube I think! :Jester:
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Well probably, if you are doing the engine room piping, and / or an engine telegraph or engine room clock.... :thinking: :Lol:
Wow, a clock at this scale... :paranoia: An engine room telegraph would look great next to the valves and levers though... hmm...
you'll have to add all the bells and whistles,, mostly bells...
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Well probably, if you are doing the engine room piping, and / or an engine telegraph or engine room clock.... :thinking: :Lol:
Wow, a clock at this scale... :paranoia: An engine room telegraph would look great next to the valves and levers though... hmm...
you'll have to add all the bells and whistles,, mostly bells...
At this size the bells would have to be tiny ones unless hidden inside some other nearby piece. Could do that, and also hide away another little crank to mimic the signalling from the bridge through the normal chains/cables. Hmmm...
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Got some more done on the crank arms - most of today was spent playing out at the pond with the RC submarine group. Perfect weather for it, yesterday was cold and an inch of rain, today was bright and sunny, lots of fun!
Yesterday I had done some turning on the lathe, started with some square bar and turned the ends for the cross bars which will hold the connecting bars that lead out to the Stephenson links
(https://i.postimg.cc/ncRPNwtL/IMG-3528.jpg)
Then threaded the outer ends and made some retaining nuts from hex bar
(https://i.postimg.cc/XYrzWcVk/IMG-3530.jpg)
Next up will be to make the handwheels and threaded rods..
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Can I understand it to mean that the control for each cylinder can be set individually on the handwheels?
To find the best run for each individual cylinder.
Michael
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Can I understand it to mean that the control for each cylinder can be set individually on the handwheels?
To find the best run for each individual cylinder.
Michael
Correct. All the arms are attached to the long shaft across the frames, with keyways to keep them moving together. Each crank arm can be set separately to fine tune the throw of each reverse link. That could be adjusted without any dismantling of any of the linkages, while the engine is running.
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It took me a little while to work out why the slot is at a funny angle to the arm. It is quite a subtle piece of geometry. It appears to be designed so that the cylinder can be 'linked-up' running ahead, but the adjustment has very little effect on the timing when running astern.
If the slot were at right angles to the arm radius, as one might at first expect, then any adjustment for running ahead would result in over-travel of the expansion link when moved across to the astern position. Or someone would have to frantically un-twiddle the knobs before yanking the reversing handle.
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Got the handwheels and threaded rods made up. The handwheels had the post end turned and drilled/threaded on the end of a piece of roundbar, then were parted off and dripped by the post to turn the outer end. Then over to the rotary table to drill the holes around the perimeter of the wheel.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Hs49KTrm/IMG-3531.jpg)
The shop elves got them assembled for me. The nut at the opposite end from the wheel was loctited onto the threaded rod, and after dry it was assembled, with another nut acting as a jam nut against the wheel.
(https://i.postimg.cc/4xWbfwvF/IMG-3532.jpg)
Looks like last step for them is to get the keyways cut into the long shaft on the side of the frames!
(https://i.postimg.cc/y81yC2RZ/IMG-3533.jpg)
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It took me a little while to work out why the slot is at a funny angle to the arm. It is quite a subtle piece of geometry. It appears to be designed so that the cylinder can be 'linked-up' running ahead, but the adjustment has very little effect on the timing when running astern.
If the slot were at right angles to the arm radius, as one might at first expect, then any adjustment for running ahead would result in over-travel of the expansion link when moved across to the astern position. Or someone would have to frantically un-twiddle the knobs before yanking the reversing handle.
Yes - here is the page from the Naval Machinery book that talks about it:
(https://i.postimg.cc/J7jNDRcX/Reverse-Gear-Page-3.jpg)
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The keyways for the crank arms are made and everything assembled:
(https://i.postimg.cc/GmLVg7hM/IMG-3535.jpg)
A video to show it in action:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGraLgOEDsM
And when I left the room for a minute the shop elves decided to invent the 'Boss-a-pult' :lolb:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbi_wPoai4s
The reverse engine is done, next time will move on to the eccentric arms and the reverse links!
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standard treatment of the FNG...
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That is very slick, Chris! Love the boss-a-pult! :ROFL:
Kim
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
re the boss-a-pult : "It was only then that Stu Pervisor realized he'd (messed) up." (translated from toolroomese cause it's a family show) :Lol:
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That piloted reversing system in action looks spectacular Chris....'so little effort to achieve the movement of such mass' :stickpoke:
A credit to the original designers ......[over linkages & fulcrums & linkages]
Question.......have viewed all of the postings, but unsure if I have missed.....'can the engine be reversed without coming to zero revolutions?' :headscratch:
Derek
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That piloted reversing system in action looks spectacular Chris....'so little effort to achieve the movement of such mass' :stickpoke:
A credit to the original designers ......[over linkages & fulcrums & linkages]
Question.......have viewed all of the postings, but unsure if I have missed.....'can the engine be reversed without coming to zero revolutions?' :headscratch:
Derek
In the video that Michael posted they did exactly that, though I would think that doing so at high speeds would put an awful lot of strain on the parts, the mass of the prop as well as the engine is a lot!
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In the video, a maneuver to cast off the ship is being carried out. They say the machine only runs at 20 to 40 revolutions. It doesn't seem to be a big strain on the machine.
I once read that the Titanic took more time to turn back. It could be that she didn't have the cylinder to reverse but a rotary machine as drive. For ships of war it has to be faster.
Michael
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In the video that Michael posted they did exactly that, though I would think that doing so at high speeds would put an awful lot of strain on the parts, the mass of the prop as well as the engine is a lot!
I thing if the timing is correct and perhaps with a bit of luck an instant reversal can be done without damage. It would get one's attention, however, since the prop would be rotating against the vessel motion. Lots of noise and vibration at the least.
The primary problem is likely the introduction of high pressures in the low-pressure parts of the engine, such as the intermediate receivers and pistons.
The Handbook for the Care and Operation of Naval Machinery says,
"Reversing. When reversing, the throttle should first be closed ,
and engine then reversed ; but when the emergency signal is received
(that is, a signal to back full speed when going ahead) , the engine
should be immediately reversed , even at a risk of breaking something.
This signal should never be given from deck unless it is an emergency
signal."
https://books.google.com/books?id=6rQ3AAAAMAAJ&dq=Handbook+for+the+Care+and+Operation+of+Naval+Machinery&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=CvVxydp74M&sig=jAoSe_dxumddbp0Um-emhG6gjPw&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result#v=onepage&q=Handbook%20for%20the%20Care%20and%20Operation%20of%20Naval%20Machinery&f=false (https://books.google.com/books?id=6rQ3AAAAMAAJ&dq=Handbook+for+the+Care+and+Operation+of+Naval+Machinery&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=CvVxydp74M&sig=jAoSe_dxumddbp0Um-emhG6gjPw&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result#v=onepage&q=Handbook%20for%20the%20Care%20and%20Operation%20of%20Naval%20Machinery&f=false)
Gene
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In the video that Michael posted they did exactly that, though I would think that doing so at high speeds would put an awful lot of strain on the parts, the mass of the prop as well as the engine is a lot!
I thing if the timing is correct and perhaps with a bit of luck an instant reversal can be done without damage. It would get one's attention, however, since the prop would be rotating against the vessel motion. Lots of noise and vibration at the least.
The primary problem is likely the introduction of high pressures in the low-pressure parts of the engine, such as the intermediate receivers and pistons.
The Handbook for the Care and Operation of Naval Machinery says,
"Reversing. When reversing, the throttle should first be closed ,
and engine then reversed ; but when the emergency signal is received
(that is, a signal to back full speed when going ahead) , the engine
should be immediately reversed , even at a risk of breaking something.
This signal should never be given from deck unless it is an emergency
signal."
https://books.google.com/books?id=6rQ3AAAAMAAJ&dq=Handbook+for+the+Care+and+Operation+of+Naval+Machinery&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=CvVxydp74M&sig=jAoSe_dxumddbp0Um-emhG6gjPw&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result#v=onepage&q=Handbook%20for%20the%20Care%20and%20Operation%20of%20Naval%20Machinery&f=false (https://books.google.com/books?id=6rQ3AAAAMAAJ&dq=Handbook+for+the+Care+and+Operation+of+Naval+Machinery&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=CvVxydp74M&sig=jAoSe_dxumddbp0Um-emhG6gjPw&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result#v=onepage&q=Handbook%20for%20the%20Care%20and%20Operation%20of%20Naval%20Machinery&f=false)
Gene
The thing I was wondering about was the stresses on the engine/crankshaft when reversing at speed on a large ship due to the massive weight of the propeller spinning in the one direction and the engine trying to reverse all of a sudden. The forces from a multi-ton prop on a large ship must be enormous. On a little steam launch that would not be a big issue, but on a full size battleship it seems like a great way to shear something off, a huge flywheel-type mass being reversed by an 8000hp engine...
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I am not sure the available torque would be more than in normal operation. The engine reversal might be slowed by the prop inertia, but it is not clear the forces and torques would be greater.
Gene
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Chris, I think an additional factor to consider is hydrodynamic forces acting on the prop / transmitted through the machinery during an engine reversal. The hull would continue to move through the water by inertia, although decelerating. The wash passing the prop as it starts to turn backwards after engine reversing could result in some very large twisting forces in the prop and also a large torque in the shaft I think. No idea how to calculate these forces, but there may have been some rules of thumb among the naval architects and engineers about this. This info may or may not have been widely published as it may have been considered trade secrets by the various shipyards or possibly strategically important by the various Navies worldwide.
It could also be that the naval architects and engineers did best calcs they could then applied the standard rule of railway equipment design - "if it looks good and strong, double it" :Lol:
(I used this approach to design my 1" wide 8" long gasket scraper in 3/8" thick gauge plate) :Lol:
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Well, whether or not it could happen on the real ship without leaving the prop behind on the harbor floor, on the model it should be possible to reverse with the engine running. I won't be trying it too fast though!
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Got a start on the reverse link bars today. Found some 1/16" thick stainless stock on the shelf left over from a previous model, and cut narrow strips for the arched link bars. A hole was drilled at either end of each for the end spacer bolts eventually, but to hold it to the milling fixture first. I will be machining the bars in pairs, one pair per set, four sets needed. Also drilled a center hole after they were mounted to the fixture, that will eventually get the bar that will hold the links back to the reverse cranks already made. The radius of the arc is 4.844", so the tooling plate on the rotary table needed an extension. Made it out of some aluminum previously used as a cylinder turning jig. Here is one of the sets bolted down and ready to start shaping.
(https://i.postimg.cc/dQ8Qpjyb/IMG-3542.jpg)
and after the first cuts on the outer arc. The ends will step down more past where the slider will operate, then I'' start on the inner arc.
(https://i.postimg.cc/MKqZSf0v/IMG-3543.jpg)
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It seems props can fall off: https://www.islandecho.co.uk/fastcat-back-to-timetable-as-prop-falls-off-wight-ryder-2/ (https://www.islandecho.co.uk/fastcat-back-to-timetable-as-prop-falls-off-wight-ryder-2/)
Wilf
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Great start on the link bars Chris!
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Those curvy bits are always rewarding to make! :popcorn: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Kim
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Got the link bars almost done. All of them have been shaped on inside and outside of the curves, and have started drilling the two last holes in them, these will have the posts that hold the eccentric arm ends.
(https://i.postimg.cc/BbZBd93h/IMG-3545.jpg)
This same jig plate will get used to make the eccentric arms as well, have to figure out the process for them. Next up will be to make the posts and spacers for the curved links. The posts will be silver soldered on. I may countersink the screw heads slightly so they get soldered on as well, and then mill/file off the heads.
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Some time in the shop this morning turn-ing out parts for the reverse link bars. The pile of 8 on the right with the steps in the center are for the posts that go in the middle of the links, holding the control rod ends. The pile of short ones in the middle are the posts that will hold the ends of the eccentric arms. 16 of those. And the pile of8 slightly longer ones on the left will be the spacers at the ends of the links. The spacers will be drilled through 2-56 clearance, the rest need to be drilled/tapped on the inner ends to take the screws for holding everything together for silver soldering. Each link gets one center and two side posts soldered on, then two link bars will be bolted at the ends with the spacers.
(https://i.postimg.cc/zG25vMk4/IMG-3546.jpg)
The end result is to look like the links at the bottom of this page:
(https://i.postimg.cc/J7jNDRcX/Reverse-Gear-Page-3.jpg)
Note that the picture shows the link block and link block pin in the center - those parts slide along the link bars, the link block pin is not one piece with the posts 'A'.
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Started drilling/tapping all the little pieces. The spacers are drilled, middle posts drilled and tapped. Next will start on the shorter posts...
Here are the first couple sets test assembled. On the inside of the rails you can see the screw heads sticking out - after soldering these will be trimmed off flush.
(https://i.postimg.cc/zXZXn9Kh/IMG-3547.jpg)
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
The links are taking shape fast. :cheers:
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Started drilling/tapping all the little pieces. The spacers are drilled, middle posts drilled and tapped. Next will start on the shorter posts...
Here are the first couple sets test assembled. On the inside of the rails you can see the screw heads sticking out - after soldering these will be trimmed off flush.
(https://i.postimg.cc/zXZXn9Kh/IMG-3547.jpg)
Beautiful!
Dave
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You just gotta love those gracefully curved parts! Well done, Chris! :popcorn: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Kim
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Thanks guys! :cheers:
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The short posts all threaded, ready for silver soldering all the joints then will trim off the screw heads.
(https://i.postimg.cc/J4HPJPSD/IMG-3548.jpg)
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Yesterday afternoon I got the posts all silver soldered to the link bars, cleaned up, and milled off the screw heads.
(https://i.postimg.cc/fTthHVH3/IMG-3551.jpg)
Today have prepped the pile of bars for the yokes that go at the top of the eccentric arms and hold the bearing blocks that will go on the short posts at either end of the links. They have been cut into rectangels and all milled to the same size, ready to start drilling mounting holes top and bottom...
(https://i.postimg.cc/PJcnXHqr/IMG-3553.jpg)
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Lovely links, Chris! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Thanks guys!
Got the yoke blanks drilled at both ends to hold the top plates and bottom arms on for soldering, still need to tap the holes. Here they are with one of the blanks with the outline of the yoke sketched on, showing where it will fit over the links. The bearing blocks will bolt on after being slipped over the corresponding posts.
(https://i.postimg.cc/xCNLqyfG/IMG-3554.jpg)
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Whipped up a little holding jig for the yokes from some aluminum scrap. Milled in a recess for the blanks to fit into, and drilled 4 clearance holes in the ends to match the screw holes in the blanks. The bottom end has two holes so the blanks can be turned over when I get to rounding over the edges. Holding it in the 4-jaw on the rotary table so it can be spun around to the different angles for the sides. Milled the sides down on one blank while taking notes on angle and handwheel settings, now am going through the rest of the blanks doing the same cuts based on those settings (CNC = Count Number Cranks).
(https://i.postimg.cc/MGthzLqL/IMG-3555.jpg)
After the outsides are all cut, I'll do the cuts on the inside of the arms, then round over the corners with a corner rounding end mill. So far have 5 blanks to this stage out of the 9 made (one spare, the blanks were cut 3 across from a wide thin bar, so got 9 blanks, which means I won't need the spare! :Lol: )
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You're making good progress. 👍
And a jig for machining is always good for mass production plus spares.........
best regards Michael
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Thanks Michael! This jig is saving a lot of time and making things very accurate across all the parts, once the first part has the next cut set up, all the rest go very quick.
Next steps were to cut the inside opening out. Started with chain drilling several holes down the center, then milling out the webs between them, followed by cutting the straight section tht will be at the top of each piece.
(https://i.postimg.cc/BncQLzkg/IMG-3556.jpg)
Right now I am milling the angled sections on each side of the inner opening. For size reference, these parts are 1" long.
(https://i.postimg.cc/fRhRbs2y/IMG-3557.jpg)
That will complete the profile shaping, after that I'll set up a corner rounding end mill and go back around the edges on both sides of every part to round the corners. At least, that is the plan - I'll do one (the spare) and see how it looks first.
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Got the last of the inside openings shaped, and set up one of the parts to test out the quarter round end mill. I've got several sizes, this needed the smallest of them. Went around the perimeter inside and out, using the notes from the shaping to get the angles right. I like the look, will do all the parts this way. It will take several sessions, thats a lot of corners to round!
(https://i.postimg.cc/LsWX21rK/IMG-3558.jpg)
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Hello Chris,
That's a dern clever bit of machining, all done on the handwheels and no CNC. :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Cheers
Mike
-
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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That's a lot of yokes! Guess the yokes on you, eh? :ROFL:
Are you going to round the edges on both sides of the yokes? Or just one side?
Kim
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That's a lot of yokes! Guess the yokes on you, eh? :ROFL:
Are you going to round the edges on both sides of the yokes? Or just one side?
Kim
Both sides will get rounded, going to take a while but will look good. Near as I can tell from the original plans they were rounded.
-
:ThumbsUp:
Are you planning on making the cone shaped pistons as shown in the plans?
You must go through quite a few end mills.
CNC! :lolb:
Eric
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:ThumbsUp:
Are you planning on making the cone shaped pistons as shown in the plans?
You must go through quite a few end mills.
CNC! :lolb:
Eric
Yes, the pistons will be cone shaped. The piston rod glands stick up above the bottom of the end cap into where a flat piston head would be. The top caps need to be domed up in the middle to make room for the center of the piston too.
And yes, end mills are a consumable when doing this much machining! They last quite a while but eventually go dull. I was able to find a bunch on Amazon a couple years ago that some vendor was selling off cheap, they only had a few of each but they had a big variety of sizes. Haven't seen a bargain like that in a while since.
Glad you like my cnc definition. And its digital, since I can count on my fingers! :Lol:
:cheers:
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The shaping on the yokes for the eccentric arms is done, ready to make the rectangular plates that go on top of them which will hold the bearing blocks, then the arms and lower plates to attach to the eccentric straps...
(https://i.postimg.cc/DzjDmN4W/IMG-3561.jpg)
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Nice work on all those yokes, Chris! That's a lot of edge-rounding work for sure! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
-
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Plenty of carving-out in those pieces!
-
Enough time spent yoking around, time to start on the plates to hold the bearing blocks! :Lol:
Lots of drilling and tapping to make the plates. For the bearings on the yokes, I need 16 sets of uppers and lowers. I'm doing the drilling first in lengths of tool steel, then will cut them aparts and trim the cut ends. Much easier and faster to do them while still on the bar, though it does make it look like I am machining my own set of Meccano (or Erector Set, depending which country you grew up in).
(https://i.postimg.cc/BnHM1cMC/IMG-3562.jpg)
When these 16 sets are done, I get to do it all over again for the links to connect the middle posts back to the crank arms! Only 8 of those links, but they are double ended so still will need 16 sets. Then I'll start making a bin full of bearing blocks... 32 of them... :insane:
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Hello Chris,
Lots more intricate parts. Nice work. :ThumbsUp:
Any idea what your swarf to parts ratio is?
Cheers :cheers:
Mike
-
Hello Chris,
Lots more intricate parts. Nice work. :ThumbsUp:
Any idea what your swarf to parts ratio is?
Cheers :cheers:
Mike
That ratio varies a lot, all depends on the parts. Lathe work usually generates a lot more swarf volume, especially when boring out cylinders, aside from that its hard to judge.
-
Hello Chris,
Lots more intricate parts. Nice work. :ThumbsUp:
Any idea what your swarf to parts ratio is?
Cheers :cheers:
Mike
That ratio varies a lot, all depends on the parts. Lathe work usually generates a lot more swarf volume, especially when boring out cylinders, aside from that its hard to judge.
Hard to count the swarf volume too, when Chris' shop elves haul it off to the scrapyard and get cash for Elfensteiner stubbies (bottles of beer) so often. :DrinkPint: :Lol:
-
After cutting all the plates from the long bar, they needed to be trimmed to a consistant length. The pairs of plates were screwed together with some short 2-56 screws, and held in the finger clamp fixture (which has been used for many parts over the years, modified lots of times) for milling. To get them all in the same location, two 2-56 clearance holes were drilled near the edge so the two screws in each set would sit down in them. Then set the milling distance from the end once, and just ran all the parts through, one pass per end.
(https://i.postimg.cc/cJtRzP9W/IMG-3563.jpg)
Here are the parts - the three on the left were trimmed, the rest of the pile on the right was ready to go. You can see how the ones on the right are all slightly different lengths.
(https://i.postimg.cc/TwrrdgvH/IMG-3564.jpg)
After trimming a quick touch on the belt sander cleaned up the burrs left by the end mill. Here two sets have been screwed to one of the yokes to show where they will go. Still need to make the bearing blocks that will be held between the plates, and need to silver solder all the bottom plates to the yokes. The center screws will hold them for soldering, then the screw heads can be trimmed off.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZRk8zj2d/IMG-3566.jpg)
And I also need to make another similar set for the links from the crank arms to the center posts... Lots and lots of parts just in these reversing links!
-
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Lots more bits! It will be a marathon soldering session for all the yokes. :cheers:
-
Great progress on the yoke attachment gizmos. :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn:
You know Chris, it seems like 40-50 pages ago you had said you were about done with the x4 parts. guess that's true. It's given away to the x9 and x18 parts! So many little bits that have to be done dozens of times.
You never tackle a small project, do you, Chris? :ROFL:
Kim
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Great progress on the yoke attachment gizmos. :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn:
You know Chris, it seems like 40-50 pages ago you had said you were about done with the x4 parts. guess that's true. It's given away to the x9 and x18 parts! So many little bits that have to be done dozens of times.
You never tackle a small project, do you, Chris? :ROFL:
Kim
Just did a small project, the steam hammer! Went by in an hour... :lolb:
-
CNR, the soldering actually went pretty quickly. I screwed on and aligned all the plates, then the shop elves put on their little fire suits and got the parts all fluxed up ( :mischief: ) for me.
(https://i.postimg.cc/DfCL626D/IMG-3567.jpg)
Closer look - using Harris Black flux, comes as a powder in a little plastic jar. I added water and mixed it all up a long time ago, add a little water now and then to keep a little water over the top. Use a dental pick to scoop out some of the paste and run it in the joints.
(https://i.postimg.cc/1526xJLr/IMG-3568.jpg)
Got out the mapp gas torch with a pencil flame tip, and ran down the line heating up each post and plate in turn. When the flux ran and started to turn clear, touched the joint with some X-easy silver solder wire and kept heating to get it to flow around each joint. Just took a few minutes to go down the line.
(https://i.postimg.cc/bNsbFKFv/IMG-3569.jpg)
Letting them cool off now, will give them a rinse and brush off the soot then give them a soak in some vinegar with salt added for the afternoon to clean them up.
Need to make up more batches of the plates, both for the links over to the crank arms and also for the bottom ends of the eccentric arms where they bolt to the eccentric straps...
-
Better tell the elves that they need some fire-proof spats to go over those shoes, they look like they'd melt.
Kim is right, at the rate you keep increasing the size of the projects, pretty soon you're going to be working on a 1:1 scale Pratt & Whitney Model 4360 28 cylinder radial engine.
-
Better tell the elves that they need some fire-proof spats to go over those shoes, they look like they'd melt.
Kim is right, at the rate you keep increasing the size of the projects, pretty soon you're going to be working on a 1:1 scale Pratt & Whitney Model 4360 28 cylinder radial engine.
:paranoia:
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Great progress on the yoke attachment gizmos. :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn:
You know Chris, it seems like 40-50 pages ago you had said you were about done with the x4 parts. guess that's true. It's given away to the x9 and x18 parts! So many little bits that have to be done dozens of times.
You never tackle a small project, do you, Chris? :ROFL:
Kim
Just did a small project, the steam hammer! Went by in an hour... :lolb:
Ah, you got me there, Chris! You did do a little project! I stand corrected. :embarassed:
Kim
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Nothing new to show today, am in the process of making the rest of the little flat plates for the rest of the connecting links in the reversing mechanism. 16 more pairs for the upper links to the crank arms, and 9 for the eccentric strap top ends. All are drilled, ready for tapping and cutting apart/trimming to length. All is being done just like the first batch I posted the last couple of days. Going to be getting ready for our next outdoor RC boat run this weekend, should be back to showing new parts on Monday.
:cheers:
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Have you reached the 2000 part mark yet? Asking for a friend. :DrinkPint:
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Have you reached the 2000 part mark yet? Asking for a friend. :DrinkPint:
Well, back when making the bed frame I think the count was 300 pieces. Since then I've added another 500, not counting off-the-shelf fasteners! So, not up to 2000 yet, but going up fast!
:cheers:
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Got the rest of the little plates made for all the links/bearing blocks:
(https://i.postimg.cc/NLqvFXXK/IMG-3572.jpg)
Glad all those are done! Now, looks like its time to make another big pile, this time all the bearing blocks for the links. Need 32 of them... :facepalm2:
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Got the blanks for the bearing blocks all cut on the bandsaw - fortunately it has an adjustable length stop so that went quick...
Then, the shop elves must have come back from lunch (finally) and thought I had left them a bonus pile of gold bricks. I guess their freight elevator wasn't strong enough...
(https://i.postimg.cc/yYq3Xf42/IMG-3573.jpg)
:Jester:
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:Lol: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
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Great day at the pond yesterday with the RC boats, we had a couple of the guys from the Toronto area come down to run as well. Perfect weather, one exciting rescue when one sub got some fishing line and a bobber wrapped around his prop (idiot fishermen). Another sub moved in to push the first one back towards shore, and then the other end of the same line wrapped around both his props, they wound up end to end and could move but not steer. Another guy sent out his rescue barge to help steer, and they all made it back to shore. Whew!
Back in the shop today, working on the bearing blocks for the reverse linkages. Got the center holes drilled in all of them, 8 with a larger hole for the center post. Am halfway through drilling all the smaller mounting holes in each of the blocks now...
(https://i.postimg.cc/BbMQV8Tz/IMG-3574.jpg)
When the holes are all done, I'll set up an arbor on the lathe to thin the perimeters down and form the bosses on either side. That will also get rid of the rounded corners from the starting bar stock.
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Hi Chris,
this will look perfect. 🍻
Michael
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Thanks Michael!
Once all the holes were drilled, an arbor was set up in the lathe to hold the parts in the center hole to turn in the bosses on either side. That went quick once set up, just swap parts and run the cross slide in and out once.
(https://i.postimg.cc/W4RMw32V/IMG-3576.jpg)
Here is the pile of bearing blocks. Well, one of them, another 8 blocks for the link ends that connect to the crank arms. I mis-spoke (mis-typed?) before when I said they were for the center posts - they go on the other end at the crank arms.
(https://i.postimg.cc/9MCZsnRN/IMG-3577.jpg)
Not quite ready to assemble all the parts yet, still need two more sets, this time the bars that go between the blocks. Simple round bar, just need to be trimmed to length and have holes drilled/tapped in both ends of each for screws to hold parts for silver soldering. The longer ones on the right will be the horizontal links from the crank arms, the shorter ones on the left will be the vertical arms up from the sccentric straps.
(https://i.postimg.cc/MGy1PSTQ/IMG-3578.jpg)
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Just piles and piles 'o parts, Chris! Can't wait to see them all come together on this bad boy! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Kim
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Just piles and piles 'o parts, Chris! Can't wait to see them all come together on this bad boy! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Kim
Me too! :Lol:
:cheers:
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Your day at the RC pond sounds eventful! Glad everyone recovered their vessels OK. Latest parts looks great! Did the other shop elves dig out Boring Bar Bernie from the pile of solid gold blocks yet?
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :cheers:
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Your day at the RC pond sounds eventful! Glad everyone recovered their vessels OK. Latest parts looks great! Did the other shop elves dig out Boring Bar Bernie from the pile of solid gold blocks yet?
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :cheers:
They had to dig him out, he had the key to the grog locker!
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:Lol: :cheers: bet those blocks were flyin!
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This morning the eccentric arms were trimmed to length and drilled/threaded on each end. Here is the stack of parts ready for silver soldering at each end of the arm. After that will assemble a set and double-check the length on the links that go between the center posts and the crank arms before trimming those rods to length.
(https://i.postimg.cc/B6qkJFhZ/IMG-3579.jpg)
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This morning the eccentric arms were trimmed to length and drilled/threaded on each end. Here is the stack of parts ready for silver soldering at each end of the arm. After that will assemble a set and double-check the length on the links that go between the center posts and the crank arms before trimming those rods to length.
(https://i.postimg.cc/B6qkJFhZ/IMG-3579.jpg)
Nice stack of wishbones there! What are you going to wish for? :Lol:
Kim
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This morning the eccentric arms were trimmed to length and drilled/threaded on each end. Here is the stack of parts ready for silver soldering at each end of the arm. After that will assemble a set and double-check the length on the links that go between the center posts and the crank arms before trimming those rods to length.
(https://i.postimg.cc/B6qkJFhZ/IMG-3579.jpg)
Nice stack of wishbones there! What are you going to wish for? :Lol:
Kim
Cheaper metal prices!
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Two soldering rounds, one for the upper end, let cool, then did lower ends.
(https://i.postimg.cc/qMdvVJnm/IMG-3580.jpg)
Letting that cool, then into the vinegar to clean up...
(https://i.postimg.cc/VLBLzxWz/IMG-3581.jpg)
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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The eccentric arms have all been cleaned and had some trimming done on the sides of the plates for better clearance, got them assembled onto the links:
(https://i.postimg.cc/mgTpPgtp/IMG-3582.jpg)
Now am getting the arms to go from the middle posts back to the crank arms made up. All are trimmed to length and drilled, need to tap some more holes in the ends for screws to hold the plates for soldering. Getting close to having them assembled onto the engine!
:cheers:
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looking great!!! you most likely are the most eccentric maker among us :stickpoke:
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looking great!!! you most likely are the most eccentric maker among us :stickpoke:
Better to be a character than have character? :noidea:
:Jester:
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I thought that you had to HAVE character, to BE a character. Otherwise you're just without character.
Whatever... You definitely GOT it!
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Chris, that looks very good 🍻
When you put the parts on the machine, do they tilt to the left or right? Do you already have the connecting rods for the reversing shaft?
I'm curious how it will look like.
Michael
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Chris, that looks very good 🍻
When you put the parts on the machine, do they tilt to the left or right? Do you already have the connecting rods for the reversing shaft?
I'm curious how it will look like.
Michael
Hi Michael,
These eccentric arms do not tilt to the side, they stay in the plane of the eccentric cams. There will be another rod from a slider on the curved links up to the valve for each cylinder. I am working on the connecting links that will go from the curved links back to the crank arms on the long rod turned by the reversing engine - before lunch I finished up tapping all the holes in those rods, next time I will get them soldered to end plates that will hold the bearing blocks.
This engine uses D-type slide valves for the IP and LP cylinders, and a spool valve for the HP cylinder. The valve bodies will have a guide hanging down from the bottom caps that the piston rods will engage. Lots more parts to come.
Here is a drawing that shows the linkages for the eccentrics, but does not show the connecting links back to the crank arms. They will go on the posts in the center of the curved links.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Yq2cdtQM/HP-Eccentrics-CAD.jpg)
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Almmost there on the reversing linkages! I've gotten the parts all screwed together, lock nuts added, and am in the process of cutting off the excess length on the screws. Seemed like a good time to get my mini Morrison & Marvin mini vise off the shelf (built from their castings a couple years ago) to hold the parts to cut the screws with a jewelers saw.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sDbPhW5K/IMG-3583.jpg)
First set is done and assembled onto the model. Here it is in the 'forward' position. All clears and rotates fine. The eccentrics are not accurately timed, just rough positioned. Later on when the cylinders are done they can be finish timed, to do that the two screws holding the bottom end of the arms are removed, exposing a hole under the plate where the set screw is in the eccentric.
(https://i.postimg.cc/vZ9rLmzy/IMG-3584.jpg)
And this is with the reversing engine at the other end of the throw, in the 'astern' position
(https://i.postimg.cc/FK4jPQWL/IMG-3585.jpg)
Once the rest are in place I'll take a video showing it all in action. I still have the hand crank wheel on the end of the crankshaft to make it easy to rotate it, thats just visible at the bottom of the photos.
The sliders that go on the bottom end of the valve rods and engage on the curved links are still to be made. I may wait on those till the first cylinder is on and am making the valve plus the valve rod crosshead. After these linkages are all done the next parts are going to be either the con rods and crossheads, or maybe the pump that sites at the end of the crankshaft.
:cheers:
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Here we go on the reverse linkages! Got them all installed, all is looking good on the movements. A couple of pictures of how they all connect:
(https://i.postimg.cc/k44DwnSw/IMG-3595.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/mD5k50N4/IMG-3596.jpg)
And a short video of them moving. First section shows it in reverse direction, then used the steam cylinder on the far side to switch to forward direction, and some more turns. Since the base was not clamped down to the table I had to keep the hand cranking slow or it kept shifting on the table (base bottom has a layer of felt so it slides easy).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tp9iBiyrxnA
:whoohoo:
Quite pleased with how it is working, great to have things going roundy round and uppy/downy at last! :wine1:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Top notch Chris! Looking and working fantastic. :cheers:
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Great progress Video :ThumbsUp: + seeing how small your hand looked at the far end - only indicates how big it is now .... and it will grow quite a bit in height :o
Per :cheers: :popcorn: :cheers:
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Simply gigantic!!!
It moves well 👍.
Now that you are standing behind the machine yourself, I can see the real dimensions of the machine.
Why can't the workshop elves turn the shaft for you. Then you would have more fun with the reversing machine? They're probably over beer and cards.
Michael
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Great progress Video :ThumbsUp: + seeing how small your hand looked at the far end - only indicates how big it is now .... and it will grow quite a bit in height :o
Per :cheers: :popcorn: :cheers:
Yes, going to get about 4 or 5 inches taller when the cylinders/etc go on. :cheers:
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Simply gigantic!!!
It moves well 👍.
Now that you are standing behind the machine yourself, I can see the real dimensions of the machine.
Why can't the workshop elves turn the shaft for you. Then you would have more fun with the reversing machine? They're probably over beer and cards.
Michael
The elves were working the camera! :Lol: Had it on a tripod so it wouldn't be too shaky after their late night card game...
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Great progress, Chris! And wonderful video of the reversing mechanism and linkages. There's a LOT going on in that video! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Kim
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Great progress, Chris! And wonderful video of the reversing mechanism and linkages. There's a LOT going on in that video! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Kim
Its getting tough to get pictures that show everything, have to back out to get the whole assembly in, but that loses detail on the small parts.
:cheers:
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Decided to do the pump at the end of the crankshaft before starting the con-rods. I had to go back to the CAD model and generate the 2D drawings for those parts since I had not done that the first time around for some reason. What I found was that the eccentric/follower that drive the pump are a fair bit smaller than the others, with about half the throw. I had remembered that I used the same pattern for both types, but had forgotten that it was scaled down for the pump parts. Also the strap needs to stick out farther and be thick enough for a slot where it connects to the pump shaft. So, the extra set I made with the rest is being shifted over to the spares-for-another-day-bin, and I'm making a new set. At least there is only one set needed, so it will go quickly. Also, being a one-off, I am not bothering with all the jigs and will just hold the parts with the four-jaw and a round arbor.
Started out cutting and bolting together two pieces of flat stock for the eccentric - it will need to bolt on to the main shaft like the other ones did. Bored out the shaft hole with the offset in the four-jaw chuck.
(https://i.postimg.cc/GtVkWbsJ/IMG-3599.jpg)
Then held it in a round arbor, centered then offset it in the chuck.
(https://i.postimg.cc/2jKFb7Xb/IMG-3600.jpg)
and rounded off the outer rim, plus used a parting tool to form the shoulders either side that will hold the strap in place.
(https://i.postimg.cc/GhTPkTZM/IMG-3601.jpg)
With it still held in the chuck, next I'll move the chuck over to the rotary table to mill in the openings in the eccentric. I had also drilled/bolted together two pieces for the strap. The larger piece is thicker than the smaller one, so the fitting that goes around the pump shaft can be formed in. After the eccentric is done, I'll set this up in the four-jaw for shaping.
(https://i.postimg.cc/cLqRT4Wd/IMG-3602.jpg)
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Only one off?! This part will go by like lightning! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Kim
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Only one off?! This part will go by like lightning! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Kim
:zap: :Jester:
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The eccentric is done, time to shape the strap for it...
(https://i.postimg.cc/X7vHtgpQ/IMG-3603.jpg)
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You were right Kim, this one went pretty quick!
(https://i.postimg.cc/0yzwgzYT/IMG-3605.jpg)
Now can start in on the pump itself. Its a two cylinder single pump, driven by the eccentric, pretty much a larger and slightly more complex version of the plunger type hand pumps we use for testing boilers. One plunger and cylinder on either side, the vertical chambers are anti-knock pressure chambers. For the model the plungers will move, but I am making the rest of it a dummy pump, no need to actually pump anything since I'll be running it on compressed air. On the plans, they call it a Sanitary Pump, its not part of the boiler/steam system as far as I can tell. Hard to know for sure since the plans dont show the rest of the system.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Yqh90Jvg/Pump.jpg)
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Chris:
Regarding the eccentric... I'm puzzled by what appear to be a pair of rectangular-ish openings on the LH side in your last picture in Post #1307. (Look in the area milled out.) Is this just an optical delusion, or do those openings exist? If they exist, what are they for?
Don
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Chris:
Regarding the eccentric... I'm puzzled by what appear to be a pair of rectangular-ish openings on the LH side in your last picture in Post #1307. (Look in the area milled out.) Is this just an optical delusion, or do those openings exist? If they exist, what are they for?
Don
In the CAD drawing? The original did have several recesses and openings, I presume for saving weight and metal. They were too small to mill in on the model parts so I have simplified them a bit. I just included the larger ones in the eccentric next to the shaft hole.
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In the book for the sea machinists these pumps are described as feed pumps and bilge pumps. However, this machine in the picture is significantly smaller.
Michael
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Interesting how the linkages differ between the picture you found Michael and the one in the Ohio plan, on the one from your book it has a tab at both sides of the eccentric strap to connect to the plungers, where on the Ohio plan there is one tab, and they ran rods over to the other plunger. Same end result, two ways to make it. I wonder if for the Ohio they wanted to make the two plungers into one rigid unit to reduce side loads on each plunger as the eccentric angled over.
:cheers:
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On the plans, they call it a Sanitary Pump
I found this with Google
Sanitary System-To supply sea water for the various toilets aboard ship a steam pump known as the sanitary pump is provided. It takes its suction directly from the sea and is usually controlled by an automatic pressure regulator so that the pressure in the sanitary line remains constant no matter how much water is being used.
Do not flush toilets in daytime. You may give away the location of your ship to the enemy.
https://maritime.org/doc/merchant/engineering/part4.php (https://maritime.org/doc/merchant/engineering/part4.php)
I think this says you should only test your engine at night. :lolb:
Gene
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Chris:
Look in Post #1307, the one before the CAD drawing post. Look at the LH opening in the eccentric. It ALMOST looks line there are a couple of rectangular openings there.
Maybe the elves spiked my Grog?
Don
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Chris:
Look in Post #1307, the one before the CAD drawing post. Look at the LH opening in the eccentric. It ALMOST looks line there are a couple of rectangular openings there.
Maybe the elves spiked my Grog?
Don
Those are just tool marks from when I chain drilled the arc for the opening before milling it out. Just scratches on the surface inside the arc, the light caught them just right in the picture.
Now, the elves may have ALSO spiked your drink... :Jester:
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Started roughing out the brackets that hold the plungers for the pump this morning, yesterday was out of town at a RC boat event, great fun there. These brackets will hold the plungers either side of the eccentric, with cross rods between them and on the sides of the eccentrics. One of the brackets will have the pivot to attach to the eccentric. Going to silver solder the parts together, lots of nibbling on the mill next to finish shaping the brackets.
(https://i.postimg.cc/G2VKWBGL/IMG-3606.jpg)
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After nibbling away at the parts on the mill, the brackets are close to done. I still need to make and install the short bits of tube to hold the crossbars to connect the two brackets around the eccentric:
(https://i.postimg.cc/CMRGfHfd/IMG-3607.jpg)
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Looking great Chris!
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Thanks Jeff!
While waiting for the plunger parts to clean up in the pickle after soldering, I started in on turning the pump cylinder and chamber pieces. Simple turning on the outsides, then turned them sideways in the 4-jaw to drill/bore the hole in the side to take the cylinder. They were too long to put in endwise to the jaws, so used the old trick of turning the part 45 degrees between the jaws and gripping with the angled faces.
(https://i.postimg.cc/DZk9bd2G/IMG-3608.jpg)
The parts so far. The cylinders will be held in place in the holes with some retaining compound since they wont actually be under any pressure. I drilled a hole through from the pipe flange on the end to let the air move freely as the plunger moves, after a quick test where it was building pressure.
(https://i.postimg.cc/B6Td5L6V/IMG-3610.jpg)
Next up will be to make the crossbars that connect the two plunger brackets. Soldering those brackets was a bit of fun, I milled notches on the corners for the tubes to rest in while soldering, and did one corner at a time with the bracket tipped to keep the tubes from rolling out. After the crossbars, I'll make the brackets that hold the cylinders onto the engine bed, which has extensions on that end to take the brackets...
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More fascinating parts, Chris! Looking forward to seeing how they all come together :popcorn: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Kim
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That pump must have been #1 in the #2 business on the ship! :Lol: Looks great! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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That pump must have been #1 in the #2 business on the ship! :Lol: Looks great! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Its a double cylinder pump driven by a single eccentric too... :Lol:
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A bunch of trimming, fettling, dismantling, remantling, moved the handwheel to the other end, adjusted the positions of the eccentrics a couple times, and the moving pump parts are installed.
(https://i.postimg.cc/bNL7qygf/IMG-3613.jpg)
In the picture the cylinders were slipped into place, they still need a plate under each one to bolt it to the engine bed brackets. Also, I had left the horizontal cylinders a little long till things were assembled, so I could mark out how much to shorten the outer ends to tuck the vertical tanks in close to the frame. They need to be trimmed about 1/2" shorter. So, next time I'll do that and get the mounting plates made. The cylinders will be painted before final installation too. At least they smell better than the originals would have! :Lol:
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Looks good!
It's a pity that the eccentric of the pump is covered by the eccentric discs of the reversal. But there are other highlights.
Michael
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Looks good!
It's a pity that the eccentric of the pump is covered by the eccentric discs of the reversal. But there are other highlights.
Michael
It is just visible from other angles, but at least the plungers/holders will be visible going back and forth. Those parts are really stacked in, very little space between them.
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Splendid work, however as Vixen said it is hard work just keeping up :) :ThumbsUp: :wine1:
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Splendid work, however as Vixen said it is hard work just keeping up :) :ThumbsUp: :wine1:
Thanks Roger! With summer and lots of trips here it will get easier to keep up! :ROFL: Lots of short trips coming up to go drive Lombards, a Sherman tank, RC submarines, and cruise on a Liberty Ship. And whatever else comes along.
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The mounting plates have been made and soldered on. Simple rectangles, and the bottom of the cylinders were flattened with an end mill to give the plates a spot to be screwed to for soldering. The vertical tanks/flanges were loctited on.
(https://i.postimg.cc/VL6Rbnnv/IMG-3614.jpg)
Here is where they will sit on the engine bed. All seems good, so off to the paint room they go! Well, not a room, just a spot in the basement...
(https://i.postimg.cc/hP508v1r/IMG-3615.jpg)
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Geez Chris....this gets better and better every time I see it!
:praise2:
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Thanks Jeff and Dave! :cheers:
This evening I got a coat of paint on the cylinder assemblies, letting them cure up overnight before assembling onto the engine tomorrow. Next parts up will be the crossheads and con rods - more moving bits! :cartwheel: After those will be some quick parts, the columns that will hold the cylinders on the other side from the main frames, the base plates were made with the engine bed so they will just need the posts and top plates. After that, finally can start the cylinders, which are quite complex shapes, those will be fun indeed. Thanks for following along!
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The pump parts are all assembled and working. One of those assemblies that shows in the final model, but the movements are subtle compared to the eccentrics/crank/conrods right next to it.
(https://i.postimg.cc/c6qF0fN1/IMG-3617.jpg)
And despite what I said yesterday, the shop elves have convinced me to do a set of simple parts next, the vertical columns that will hold up the outboard side of the engine. These columns will sit on these pads, marked in green
(https://i.postimg.cc/PfBHPcXJ/IMG-3620.jpg)
The discs for the bottom ends were made when the engine bed was made, you can see one closer up in the first picture in this post. On the underside of each disc the center hole was counterbored for a screw head, to hold the disc to the column for soldering. Just went up to the band saw and roughed out the remaining parts:
(https://i.postimg.cc/h4Jg4gqN/IMG-3619.jpg)
The columns will all be trimmed to length and holes drilled/tapped in the ends, and the discs need to be trued up and trimmed to length, then the hole patterns drilled in them like the ones on the base. I'm getting prepped for another event this weekend, so progress will be slower than normal (I know, normal for me that is! :Lol: )
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Tired last night I read painting the cylinders,, I'm like "when did I miss that those big cylinders getting made" :Doh: :cheers: pump cylinders and gear looks great!!!
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Tired last night I read painting the cylinders,, I'm like "when did I miss that those big cylinders getting made" :Doh: :cheers: pump cylinders and gear looks great!!!
:ROFL:
The big cylinders will be hard to miss, with all the shapes and brackets hanging off of them, they will be a major project in themselves. Sort of looking forward to them, sort of not! :paranoia:
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You'll have your lathe jumping around the shop in no time, with the big cylinders! :Lol: The finished pump looks great. :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Chris, I think the cylinders are going to be an interesting journey.
I will follow the construction with interest and I don't know any model maker who ever builds such complex designs from individual pieces.
Greetings Michael
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Thanks guys! I am looking forward to seeing how I make the cylinders too... :Lol:
Another side project that I've been doing for the folks at the Cincinnati water pumping station museum. They have four enormous (104 feet tall) steam pumping engines by RD Wood. They are similar in general to the Holly engine I modeled, from the Ward pump station in Buffalo. Much taller though, since they had to reach down to below the low water mark in the river, which fluctuated over 80 feet, and also be above the flood stage for the control level. When I was there, and talking with the guys that run the tours, I wound up trading a copy of the Holly engine plans with the ones they had for the RD Wood engines, full set of original plans (scanned in, they kept the paper!) There was also several Holly engines there at another station in the past. They are using videos of my model of the Holly engine in their tours to show the engine in action. Anyway, I've been making a 3d CAD model of the Wood engine, and got it far enough to animate the parts, below is a video I captured when testing the model. Going to be doing a better one once the rest of the parts are on (platforms, stairs, etc).
Thought you might like to see it...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jz6Hjy25Zd4
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :cheers:
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Wow! Yet another very impressive model, Chris! Is this one on your to-do list? Or are you just modeling it up for them in CAD?
Kim
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Wow! Yet another very impressive model, Chris! Is this one on your to-do list? Or are you just modeling it up for them in CAD?
Kim
Mainly doing up the CAD model for them to generate renders and animations of the engines there. In real life, its pretty hard to see the engine since there are platforms, pipes, a huge stack of weights in the center of the pit (to hold down the floor against groundwater pressure since they grossly miscalculated that), stairways, etc. In other waterworks, like Buffalo and Boston, the engines are out in the middle of a giant room. In Cincinnati there are 4 of these engines around the walls of a 100+ foot deep round pit. Its really tough to get an idea of what the engine looks like overall, so they are hoping to use these animations on their tours (they offer monthly tours, you get to go up and down the whole engine, quite impressive)
Some views of the real thing - from the top
(https://i.postimg.cc/rwgYtn67/IMG-4086.jpg)
and the bottom
(https://i.postimg.cc/2SCKypt4/IMG-4196.jpg)
Now, one thing I am going to look into is to scale it way down and see if its feasable to 3d print a version thats a foot or so tall. I've got a Prusa MK3 printer, with an upgrade to turn it into a Mk4 on order - the upgrades and newer software will speed it up a lot while reducing waste and improving surface quality. Someday in the future it could be a normal (if that word applies to another huge project) model build, if my build list stops growing and actually empties out! Over the last several years I have been able to obtain three sets of original build drawings for the Ward engine in Buffalo (which I built the model of already), the Allis engine in Boston, and this RD Wood engine in Cincinnati. Rare enough to have surviving engines in this part of the world, rarer for the engines to still have paper copies of the original drawings, I am very lucky to have been able to get copies of them. I've tried contacting some of the museums in England that have similar engines, never was able to get anyone there to talk to me - its a lot easier to get to the right people in person than through emails. Another engine I'd love to get plans for would be the two giant beam engines in Hamilton Canada, great museum there, they still had one of them hooked up to turn with an electric motor (the boilers were in no shape to steam up anymore) so got to see the mechanism working. There are a few other giant engines left in this part of the world, but not many.
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Got the vertical columns finished up, nice little forest:
(https://i.postimg.cc/vmDDVtH3/IMG-3621.jpg)
Next up are the con rods. Just dug through the bar stock stack to pick out the bars to use. I have enough bronze for the top and bottom bearings, and the steel for the top end and rods, but need to order in some bigger bar for the bottom ends. These con rods are fairly massive compared to others I've made, they had to handle a lot of power. The top/bottom halves for the lower end will be made from some 5/8" x 3/4" stainless. So, I'll first get started on the bearings for top and bottom ends, using some bearing bronze rod...
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Here is most of the 'kit' for the connecting rods, not counting the rectangular bars to hold the bearings for the bottom end:
(https://i.postimg.cc/156dykGK/IMG-3624.jpg)
This is about as far as I'll get for a few days, I have an event this weekend to get ready for. More probably on Monday! :cheers:
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And this is where those parts are going, this is the design for the con rods
(https://i.postimg.cc/s2fH91tn/Con-Rod.jpg)
and after that the crossheads/piston rods:
(https://i.postimg.cc/YSXnXM7t/Crosshead.jpg)
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
There's definitely some elegant con rods lurking inside that stock......and I know you'll find em! :Lol:
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Those are pretty beefy con rods, Chris. :popcorn: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Have fun at your exciting weekend event! Looking forward to hearing all about it ^-^
Kim
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very impressive Chris!
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Thanks guys!
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That RD Wood engine is pretty impressive :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
It will be interesting to see how your 3D model looks so you can separate the engine from the building :)
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No shop time the last couple days, I was up at the logging museum in Maine playing with the Lombard log haulers. Here is a video Herb posted of what was going on that day - I'm the one in the blue jacket and the green hat drifting the steamer around the museum!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyYs1hnbAA0
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You just have way too much fun up there! :DrinkPint:
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Drifting eh?
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Drifting eh?
Err, um, well, they were made to go through snow? :Lol:
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Looks like you were on the right track - and the left track - up there Chris! :Lol: Great video. :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :cheers:
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No shop time the last couple days, I was up at the logging museum in Maine playing with the Lombard log haulers. Here is a video Herb posted of what was going on that day - I'm the one in the blue jacket and the green hat drifting the steamer around the museum!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyYs1hnbAA0
This must be be a real day of fun. :cheers:
Thank you for showing this movie.
Richard
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No shop time the last couple days, I was up at the logging museum in Maine playing with the Lombard log haulers. Here is a video Herb posted of what was going on that day - I'm the one in the blue jacket and the green hat drifting the steamer around the museum!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyYs1hnbAA0
This must be be a real day of fun. :cheers:
Thank you for showing this movie.
Richard
Lots of fun - great to get together with the crew up there each time. This event is a lot smaller than the one at the end of July and the really big one, two days in October. Good chance to get everything out and make sure its all working. There was a guy there filming everything for a Youtube group that does neat documentaries, I'll put up the link when they have that posted, not sure when that will be.
The museum has two steam Lombards, one on loan and one that the museum owns. The loaned one has the original riveted boiler, not certified for public events though it is functional. Also have two gas powered Lombard trucks that we run, those are on loan from another family that has been restoring them. He has another one that was about to be transported up to the museum but he found a problem with the engine that needs to be fixed first. Museum also has several sawmills, blacksmith shop, a number of other exhibits.
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Back playing in the shop today. Before the trip I had started in on the big end bearings. They were made by drilling/boring lengths of bearing bronze rod, mounting them on an arbor, and using a parting tool to cut in the recess on the outside, leaving flanges on each end to hold them in place on the steel holder.
(https://i.postimg.cc/c1Q13Dw4/IMG-3627.jpg)
Today I did the same on the bearings for the small end of the con rod, twice as many of those since the con rods split into a fork at the top end. Here are all the bearings so far, also made two go/no-go plug cauges to match the narrower centers for when the holders are bored. Still need to use a jewelers saw to split the big bearings (the small ones can just slip onto the crosshead guide side rods).
(https://i.postimg.cc/DynvPqPQ/IMG-3629.jpg)
and, have started trimming the blocks to make the small end holders from. So far I have them all trimmed to length, still need to narrow each one down to final size, then can drill for the mounting screws and shape the tops of the caps...
(https://i.postimg.cc/BbcqG641/IMG-3630.jpg)
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Chris, you can see you all had a great time over the weekend.
Sometimes the small meetings are more interesting and there are good conversations among the active participants.
Michael
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Looks like a very fun weekend, Chris! Great video :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
And great work on the bearings!
Kim
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Bearing rings look great Chris!
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Thanks guys!
More on the upper bearing holder blocks, got them all trimmed to length and thickness now
(https://i.postimg.cc/mrycMqVQ/IMG-3632.jpg)
so am starting on drilling them for the bolts to hold the two halves together.
(https://i.postimg.cc/LX4JVT0G/IMG-3633.jpg)
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The upper bearing holders for the con rods are all drilled, tops notched, and the halves bolted together for boring. After boring the bearing holes the tops will be rounded between the notches, and a hole drilled in the bottom for assembling to the yokes.
(https://i.postimg.cc/P5F7kmcZ/IMG-3634.jpg)
Before I start boring the holes, I'm going to do the same steps on the big end bearing holders. These are quite a bit bigger, but at least there are only four of them. Here are the blanks for the eight halves next to the upper ends for comparison:
(https://i.postimg.cc/JhD27sVF/IMG-3635.jpg)
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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The blocks for the big ends have been trimmed to length, drilled for side bolts, and notched on the bottom, ready for drilling/boring the holes for the bearings. The holes in the center of the un-notched ends are for screws to hold the con-rod arms for soldering later on. Mini shop elf inspector Stu Pervisor seems to approve. At proper scale for the model, he shows how big the original parts were.
(https://i.postimg.cc/XJ4xwcYB/IMG-3636.jpg)
First up for boring will be the big end blocks. To give clearance for the boring bar to make it through the far side of the block but not hit the chuck or the inner ends of the jaws. I had to add some small blocks on two of the sides. Dial indicator was used to center the block in the chuck. If the jaws were the other way round, I could have used a spider spacer, but then the outer ends of the jaws hit the ways. It was either add some spacers or put the riser blocks in.
(https://i.postimg.cc/8544wJ7K/IMG-3637.jpg)
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First big end block bored out...
(https://i.postimg.cc/NjJv5FGc/IMG-3638.jpg)
and test fit with the bearing...
(https://i.postimg.cc/vm4F9yD6/IMG-3640.jpg)
Three more to go then will start on the smaller upper blocks. The bearing blocks still get more shaping - arcing the outer end, milling back the center sections, soldering on the arms, etc.
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The first parts for the connecting rods look good.
When I think about how big the parts of a ship's steam engine can be, I have great respect for the workers of more than 100 years ago.
Michael
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Your scale-size worker dude (Stu, right?) sure makes it clear how HUGE those bearings were! :o
Kim
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Parts look great Chris! Stu's either inspecting the work carefully with the old vernier eyeball, or doing the "pro 180 degree avoidance maneuvre" lookin away from Bucket Bob out horizontal from too many Elfensteiner stubbies with lunch..... :Lol: :cheers:
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Thanks guys! If memory serves the crank pins on the original engines were about 15 or 16 inches in diameter! Big big engines!
:cheers:
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Got the rest of the holes bored in the big end blocks. As usual the Stu-Pervisor is trying to take credit for the work. The shop elves are in the other room watching Roadrunner/Coyote cartoons to learn how to drop an anvil on him...
(https://i.postimg.cc/vTMMcRvn/IMG-3641.jpg)
Sketched on the lines as a guide for the next milling steps, to recess in around the bearings like the originals did.
(https://i.postimg.cc/j2XTf88F/IMG-3642.jpg)
But, continuing on with the lathe to bore out the small end bearing blocks first. These are small enough to hold with the chuck jaws the normal way around. Being so thin, I had to use the outside of the jaws as the reference points with the dial indicator to center it up.
(https://i.postimg.cc/k4WqJMW9/IMG-3643.jpg')
One down, 7 more to go...
(https://i.postimg.cc/pVYR3T2J/IMG-3644.jpg)
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I'm sorry - but if Stu-Pervisor claims to have done all the hard Work - he would be wearing different colours / No-Way so Clean ...!!! :old: :slap:
But he does make a nice size reference, to how big the Original was + most of us tend to forget that the Boilers usually where Bigger :insane:
Still on daily check in on the progress of this Build :praise2: :cheers:
Per
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Interesting processing of the parts.
I look forward to the result. :cheers:
Michael
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Got all the upper bearing blocks bored out. The shop elves have stuffed Stu-Perviser in a toolbox drawer and taken over their normal duties again...
(https://i.postimg.cc/R0X1GYGz/IMG-3645.jpg)
They got a start on rounding over the outer ends of the bearing blocks. The larger ones are done, and just starting in on the smaller ones...
(https://i.postimg.cc/bvzHxPxT/IMG-3646.jpg)
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Great progress on the many bearing blocks, Chris! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
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Shop Elves to boss ... "...and just what would you like us to do with this lot?"
:cheers:
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Got all the ends rounded over, time to start in on shaping the sides of the big end blocks. They get recessed each side, leaving top/bottom flanges on each half of each block. Lots of cuts to make, so I am assembly-lining the process, setting up one cut and running all the blocks through before moving on to the next cut. Its a lot of moving blocks in and out of the vise, but it means that all come out the same. I'm starting with a medium-sized end mill to remove the bulk of the material, and will go back with a small one to get into the corners and around the curves by the bearings. The work stop is really coming in handy, very quick to swap parts in the vise but have them positioned just the same.
(https://i.postimg.cc/j5N7BdrP/IMG-3648.jpg)
Going to do all the cuts on the sides, then will tip the blocks up on end to trim the ends of the recessed areas back in.
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So, it's my guess the elves with the broom are in the background cleaning up all that swarf while the skilled onlookers get the camera time.
Great project, and beyond excellent work!!!
maury
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So, it's my guess the elves with the broom are in the background cleaning up all that swarf while the skilled onlookers get the camera time.
Isn't that what apprentices are for? :Lol:
Great project, and beyond excellent work!!!
maury
Thanks!!
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I love how you shape the bearings.
There is a big difference between the apprentice of my time and the apprentice of today. 😉
Michael
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Parts are looking great Chris!
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Thanks guys! Couple more steps to go on the big end holders. Still pondering how to hold them to round over the recessed area ends, yet another jig needed...
:cheers:
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Finished up the last of the side recesses by holding the parts in the 4 jaw on the rotary table, and using a small end mill to get into the inside corners and also rotate it around the inner arc to clean that up.
(https://i.postimg.cc/PrYkNCm0/IMG-3649.jpg)
Then set up a bit of aluminum on a faceplate as a holder to round over the corners on the recesses...
(https://i.postimg.cc/fRsQdMCy/IMG-3650.jpg)
Fiddly work, but it really adds to the look of the finished parts
(https://i.postimg.cc/x1PDyBpR/IMG-3651.jpg)
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: The end rounding really makes these rod ends pop! Jig # 99,235 worked out beautifully. :Lol:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: The end rounding really makes these rod ends pop! Jig # 99,235 worked out beautifully. :Lol:
Does it count as a new jig if it was modified from jig #98,102? :Lol: Some of my faceplates look like well gnawed swiss cheese with all the holes drilled in them over the years.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: The end rounding really makes these rod ends pop! Jig # 99,235 worked out beautifully. :Lol:
Does it count as a new jig if it was modified from jig #98,102? :Lol: Some of my faceplates look like well gnawed swiss cheese with all the holes drilled in them over the years.
It certainly does count! Of course, you could use a different numbering method and call it jig #98,102-B or something, but that doesn't change the number of jigs, just the jig reference nomenclature :Lol:
Beautiful work on those bearing holders, Chris! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Kim
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A while back I had posted some pictures of the RD Wood steam powered water pumping engines down in Cincinnati Ohio. Here is a newer video from the 3D CAD model that I did for them. Still looking around for a better way to make the animation, Fusion is still a bit limited in combining renders, motion from joints between parts, and animations, so part of this I had to do as a screen capture so its a bit jerky. Have looked at other apps like Blender which do much better animations, but the learning curve requires more time than I want to spend on it. Anyway, though some of you might like to see this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKLeAIxxShQ
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That is mighty cool, Chris! :popcorn: :ThumbsUp:
Kim
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Heavy rains moved in this afternoon, so some extra shop time instead of outdoor time. Got the big end blocks pretty much done, all that remains on them is to saw the bearings in half with a jewelers saw then solder the top halves to the con rod shafts when they are made.
(https://i.postimg.cc/4xh6tT8K/IMG-3652.jpg)
Now to do the same recesses on the small end blocks. Same patterns, just smaller. Since they are shallower and narrower, doing all the work with a smaller end mill, and its going quicker than the larger ones did. But, there are twice as many to do!
(https://i.postimg.cc/TPMrJHSt/IMG-3653.jpg)
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Eagle-eyed Don (ddmckee54) spotted a boo-boo in the video I posted with the fly-around on the ED Wood engine - at about a minute in you can see inside the water intake pipe at the bottom of the engine. Turns out that when I joined up the hollow pipe sections to form the junction I missed a 'cut' operation so the other pipes were not visible at the junction, same with the chambers behind it. Here is what it should have looked like (took longer to type this sentence than to fix the CAD model). Thanks Don!
(https://i.postimg.cc/HkB7F5wX/Pipe-Opening.jpg)
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: I see the light at the end of the tunnel! :Lol:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: I see the light at the end of the tunnel! :Lol:
Without the pipe attached, it could be the worlds largest squirtgun! :Jester:
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I wonder how many times they did the squirtgun gag when they built the real engine? :Lol: :shrug:
(quote from waterworks staff "start the drain PUMPS!" )
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I wonder how many times they did the squirtgun gag when they built the real engine? :Lol: :shrug:
(quote from waterworks staff "start the drain PUMPS!" )
:Lol: Given that they were below the bottom of the river outside, they must have had drain pumps to use when the water-wars got out of hand. Imagine the size of the water balloons they could fill, and there was an overhead crane to lift them with! :Jester:
On the Holly pumps at the Ward station in Buffalo, the plans showed that there were drain pumps on the end of each engine, driven from the crankshaft, with intakes recessed into the foundation. They were later taken off and the space used for the condensers, and other drains/pumps were added for the building. Any leaks from the piping/pump seals, plus condensation on the pipes needed to be collected and pumped out.
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:ThumbsUp: :cheers:
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After a number of sessions, all the con rod bearing blocks are shaped. Whew! Lots of corners...
(https://i.postimg.cc/VNmfjLd6/IMG-3654.jpg)
On the lower left of that picture you can see the blanks for the yokes that will sit on top of the con rod arms, with one of the smaller bearing blocks on top of each of the arms of the yokes. They were sawn out of some flat bar and trimmed to length. Fortunately I only need four of these. The outside of the curves was done on the lathe, I made the cuts on the first one by eye following the drawn on curve, taking a cut every turn of the handwheel in the long axis of the lathe, taking notes on the cross slide handwheel position so I can reproduce it on the other three parts. I'll try and remember to get a picture of that stage on the next part. Then took some light cuts along the curve to knock off the steps, turning both handwheels like an etch-a-sketch. Final smoothing was with a file, with the speed turned up so the file would float on the curves.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZqHTjtdL/IMG-3655.jpg)
Also drilled a hole in the end for a screw to hold the parts to the arms for silver soldering. So, three more to get to this stage, then can get the center portion milled out. That area gets straight cuts all the way across, rather than the circular cross sections left by the lathe.
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A start has been made! :cheers:
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And the start has been finished - well, at least on the outside of the parts! :Lol:
Using the 'recipe' from the first yoke piece, the other three went pretty quickly, about 15 minutes each. Remembered to grab a picture of the second one after cutting in the steps:
(https://i.postimg.cc/vZkPjXJx/IMG-3659.jpg)
Here are all four, ready to cut the inside arcs:
(https://i.postimg.cc/c4JXLVZ8/IMG-3660.jpg)
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Nice ziggurat, Chris! Looking good! :popcorn: :ThumbsUp:
Kim
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Nice ziggurat, Chris! Looking good! :popcorn: :ThumbsUp:
Kim
Thanks Kim! I tried coming up with a good ziggurat pun for a reply, but I got nothing! :Jester:
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don't worry sit in your temple of machining and I'm sure you'll get a mound of them, that's the way things stack up..
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: A monumental piece of machining Chris! :Lol: :shrug:
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Thanks guys! This has all been a good warmup for the real fun, making the cylinder blocks, each with three mounts sticking out, four horizontal stay rod towers hanging out in the middle, and the valve chests out one side. Plus all the flanges and such. They range from around 2 inch to 4 inch OD, 3 inches tall. The hp uses a spool valve, rest are massive double ported d valves, each with Lovekin valves to support the valve bodies. Gonna be fun!
First need to finish the con rods, should be within the week, then the crossheads and piston rods, maybe a week for those. One day in the middle of that to go play crewman on a Sherman tank... ^-^
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Did some pondering on how to cut out the openings in the yokes, and realized that the shape/size worked out that I could bore a hole for the curved part at the bottom then straighten up the sides on the mill. Saves a lot of drilling/milling time with the rotary table that I was thinking about first. So, got them bored out on the lathe:
(https://i.postimg.cc/054XVFjv/IMG-3662.jpg)
and have started opening up the ends on the mill:
(https://i.postimg.cc/4NhLqPH9/IMG-3663.jpg)
Worked out very easy. :wine1:
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Finishing up the yokes - milled a slot in the top of each one to locate the bearing block. These will keep the blocks parallel and centered when silver soldering.
(https://i.postimg.cc/VNcknKnB/IMG-3664.jpg)
also drilled the holes to hold the blocks down. These holes match the ones already in the bottom of the blocks. Need to finish tapping the rest of the holes this afternoon.
(https://i.postimg.cc/2SW51sbS/IMG-3666.jpg)
Test fit of the bearing blocks on one of the yokes - looking good!
(https://i.postimg.cc/xThCTfdZ/IMG-3665.jpg)
After the tapping is done, the yokes can be screwed to the blocks. The screws will come down from the hole in the blocks, so the blocks will need to be taken apart for the soldering step. All of the blocks are number stamped so they will go back together as machined. After soldering the screw heads will be cut off so the bearings will fit back in.
Still to go on the con rods are the center arms. They will be turned from some round bar, with holes drilled/tapped in the ends for assembly/soldering. Getting closer...
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looking very very nice!!!! :whoohoo: :cheers:
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Looking good, Chris! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
And this is the 'small' end? :o
Kim
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Looking good, Chris! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
And this is the 'small' end? :o
Kim
Yup! These conrods are the biggest I've made yet. Overall about 6-1/4" long, 1-1/2" across the upper bearings, big end bearings are 3/4" long and bore. Each is going to be about 3/4 of a pound in weight. :o
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With all that metal you’re using you must have store in your back yard Dog…… :lolb: always great work Chris……. :Love:
:cheers:
Don
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With all that metal you’re using you must have store in your back yard Dog…… :lolb: always great work Chris……. :Love:
:cheers:
Don
Thanks Don! And the metal storage 'vault' used to be the closet in the room where my shop is! I put up rows of shelves up two of the walls. And longer bars leaning up against the other wall...
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This afternoon the wind direction changed and brought the smoke/haze from the giant wildfires up in Canada back this way again, so I spent a little more time indoors getting the middle posts made for the con rods. Drilled/threaded each end for assembly screws, and the middle has a slight taper and flares out at the bottom. Here is a shot with one in my hand for scale. The shop elves are assembling the rest in the background...
(https://i.postimg.cc/59ztsHS2/IMG-3669.jpg)
Hmmm, looks like they shamed Stu Pervisor into trying to help... Whoops...
(https://i.postimg.cc/x8LT871z/IMG-3668.jpg)
Here is one held up next to the crankshaft/engine frame to show how it will look soon.
(https://i.postimg.cc/65Npg9ML/IMG-3670.jpg)
I guess tomorrow is soldering day! :cartwheel:
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:ThumbsUp: Amazing!
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:ThumbsUp: Amazing!
Thanks Eric!
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Got the con rods all soldered up in one session, started at the yoke ends and worked my way back to the other. The thick steel needed a medium-large nozzle on the torch to heat up quickly.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Dfcrwy85/IMG-3671.jpg)
The four rods are out cooling off, then they'll swim in some vinegar for the afternoon to clean off the flux and soot, should be ready for some assembly tomorrow. Depending how freely they move, might do a light lapping on them, but they should be good as is judging by how the test piece fit the bearings.
Then, on to the crossheads! Once those are made I can give the crankshaft a good roundy-round/uppy-down test and celebrate. Decent weather today, time to head outside. :cheers:
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Nice soldering, Chris! It's kinda fun to solder steel, isn't it?
Looks like you're finding those fire bricks break apart pretty easily after a few heatings too! I've got quite the collection of brick chunks these days! :Lol:
Kim
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Nice soldering, Chris! It's kinda fun to solder steel, isn't it?
Looks like you're finding those fire bricks break apart pretty easily after a few heatings too! I've got quite the collection of brick chunks these days! :Lol:
Kim
I've been using the same bricks for about 10 years, almost all were broken. Finally picked up another stack lat year. The broken ones are good for propoing up parts still.
EDIT: Just checked on the parts, they've been in the pickle for about an hour or so. The soot/flux loosened up so that was wire brushed off under running water, then back into the pickle for a while. Solder penetration looks pretty good. I had filed little grooves across the mating faces on the end of the column so the solder had a place to wick through (the turned surfaces were a very close fit), that looks like it worked.
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Great big Rods Chris :ThumbsUp:
How did you ensure that the bearings are parallel to each other - before, during and after soldering ?
Per :cheers:
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Great big Rods Chris :ThumbsUp:
How did you ensure that the bearings are parallel to each other - before, during and after soldering ?
Per :cheers:
Thanks Per! The bearings are parallel in the horizontal planes from machining the faces, but as you are right to ask, they need to be parallel in the vertical plane or the crosshead will want to rock and twist as the crak goes around. I used straightedges on the upper and lower bearings to sight along as the screws in the upper end were tightened so I am hoping they are still straight. I'll know for sure when the crossheads are made and all is assembled and the crankshaft spun round. Till then it all looks straight, and I have to wait to know for sure. Worst case, bearings could be shimmed a thou or two in the holders if needed.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Those won't be rods that get no respect (as per Rod(ney) Dangerfield).
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Those won't be rods that get no respect (as per Rod(ney) Dangerfield).
Good old Rodney! :Lol:
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This morning I got all the temporary screws from soldering milled off, and the con rods assembled onto the crankshaft. :cartwheel:
(https://i.postimg.cc/NML8Sj9G/IMG-3676.jpg)
They seem to move well, though without the crossheads I can't rotate the crankshaft around since the rods catch on the columns. So, thats the next set of parts, the crossheads. Also need to go in with a thin pair of wrenches and set the positions of the locknuts on each big end cap, but I think I'll wait till the crossheads are on in case things need to come apart again (which is the usual way). Another few days should see a complete lower end to the engine. In the meantime, a fresh family shot of the model so far:
(https://i.postimg.cc/HLkb8kt0/IMG-3673.jpg)
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Great family shot, Chris! :popcorn: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Kim
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Great family shot, Chris! :popcorn: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Kim
Thanks Kim!
Its getting hard to show the whole engine with enough detail in the parts, I may have to do an occasional one with higher resolution.
:cheers:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Looks amazing Chris. The con rods turned out really well. :cheers:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Looks amazing Chris. The con rods turned out really well. :cheers:
Thanks Jeff! Can't wait to get the crossheads made and see it all move together!
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Got a good start on the crossheads, which are much simpler than the con rods. So far have the cross posts all turned at one end from some rectangular bar
(https://i.postimg.cc/sX3RybPN/IMG-3677.jpg)
and have one turned around and the end post done on the other end
(https://i.postimg.cc/cHTGJTX4/IMG-3678.jpg)
These pieces will also get bored in the rectangular center portion for the piston rods, and then will bolt to the slider piece that fits into the vertical frames. Those slider pieces are yet to be made...
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Hello Chris, very nice work!
You don't let any air in it, it's on straight away.
Something will soon be turning and you can oil the first bearings regularly.
Michael 🍻
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Thanks Michael!
The crosshead bars then got a hole bored through for the piston rod,
(https://i.postimg.cc/j2b4Swss/IMG-3679.jpg)
and then I moved on to making the slider shoes for them. These will bolt onto the side of the cross bars, and fit into the slots in the vertical frames. First couple of milling steps are done so far, taking the sides back, and then the ends. Next will be to put the slots into the sides to fit the frames.
(https://i.postimg.cc/hv1bzDjV/IMG-3680.jpg)
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Have the shop elves tried to get Stu Pervisor to "try on a pair of these new shoes"? If he does he'll be stuck to the spot! :Lol:
The parts look great. Really nice finish on the pivots on the centre block.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Have the shop elves tried to get Stu Pervisor to "try on a pair of these new shoes"? If he does he'll be stuck to the spot! :Lol:
The parts look great. Really nice finish on the pivots on the centre block.
Thanks CNR! I've found that if I get the right speeds the 303 stainless gives a nice smooth finish.
We are out at the pond tomorrow with the RC subs, and I've overheard the other elves telling Stu that these shoes will be good for walking on water... :LittleDevil:
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A few more cuts, and the profiles on the 'shoes' are complete.
(https://i.postimg.cc/CxsGcLHt/IMG-3682.jpg)
Here is how they fit into the vertical frames...
(https://i.postimg.cc/6pXVVGRn/IMG-3681.jpg)
They are long enough to slide nice and smoothly, even with some pressure in/out like the con rods will put on them. So, last steps with them are to drill for the bolts to hold the crossbars to the shoes.
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Well, two steps forward, one back! I got the holes drilled/tapped/countersunk for the screws to hold the crosshead parts together, and went for a test fit on the first one:
(https://i.postimg.cc/RCb4nckp/IMG-3683.jpg)
And apparently the shop elves were drunk when they were jumping on the calculator keys for me when I was figuring the sizes of the two blocks (thats my story and I'm sticking to it) and the crosshead is too short, by exactly .125". :headscratch: Which makes the upper bearing holder hit the vertical frame, and the center of the bearing is too far back. :thinking: Huh. Or, I was going back and forth between 1/2" and 5/8" thick bars when picking the stock off the shelf, and told them the wrong number. :wallbang:
So, at least its an easy fix. I will cut some short lengths of the 1/8" x 1/2" bar in the foreground in the picture and drill them to match the holes, and use that as a spacer. Good task for tomorrow!
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Nice looking shoes! :popcorn: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Too bad about that 1/8" thing... Of course, I've never had that happen... well, not today anyway! (I didn't work out in my shop today either :Lol:) Funny how you can work out your math very carefully and only find your problem when the part doesn't fit right. Then the error becomes obvious!
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Still following along :praise2: :praise2:
I like your solution for forming the yokes :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :wine1:
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Fantastic work and the speed you seem to do things. Even though I am retired I still can't get too find the amount of time to spend in the workshop like you do.
I always try to look in at least once everyday to see the progress on the engine.
I use to spend time on a pond here in the UK with model boats and a submarine which I still have many of them. The submarine is a model of HMS Tabard
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Thanks guys! Dalboy - am heading out in an hour to the pond to run, we may have to cut it short today since some heavy storms are heading this way but we should get a couple hours in.
Well, the extra little pads to space out the crossheads worked great. Everything is moving well now, after some fine tuning of the sliders, filing off corners/burs, thinning a couple of them slightly. Still need to tighten the locknuts on the big ends against each other, but its all moving! Here is an overall photo, then some videos:
(https://i.postimg.cc/yNPDZLC3/IMG-3687.jpg)
I did all the assembly/tuning with the bearings dry (saved a lot of mess as I was putting parts on/off), then gave them all some oil - that made things turn a fair bit easier. Here it is being cranked round by hand. I had to hang onto the corner of the base to keep it from shifting since the bottom of the base has a layer of felt and it slides easily.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Xm09oKmgqA
:whoohoo: :cartwheel:
This is the first engine I've done where the control arms to the reverse link arcs connect at the middle of the arcs rather than at the far ends. I noticed that this way really reduces the movement on the control arms - I wonder why more designs didn't do it this way? At least the ones with two parallel arcs in each set. The connection post makes the construction a little more complex, but no more than the ones at the ends of the arms to the eccentrics. Here is a closer view of the reverse links as the crankshaft turns:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHKOeshb5js
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Was back in the shop cranking the engine around again, and came up with a new version of the Whack A Mole game, got the pattern down to push down on the top of the crossheads to drive the crankshaft around! Great fun, a really big version of the little finger engines. :Lol:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: The motion is fantastic in the videos Chris. Great job!
When I have problems with blocks shrinking or growing by .125" in my shop, my theory is that some sort of cosmic rays or alien energy beams caused it. :embarassed: Mythbusters never tackled that one.... :Lol:
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The motion looks rather smooth -> I guess that you are rather happy with reaching this Milestone :cartwheel: :ThumbsUp:
Per :cheers:
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Excellent! This is a big milestone, Chris! Love seeing the parts go round and round and up and down! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
When I have problems with blocks shrinking or growing by .125" in my shop, my theory is that some sort of cosmic rays or alien energy beams caused it. :embarassed: Mythbusters never tackled that one.... :Lol:
Well, back in the olden days when I was working (almost 2 years ago, can you believe it?) I worked for Intel. One of the things I had the opportunity to do MANY years back was to participate in a trip to Los Almos National Labs where we subjected the microprocessor to a neutron beam. This was to test the likelihood of getting a logic upset in the chip resulting in errors. If a large particle, like a neutron, hits one of the transistors, it has the chance to bump elections around and mess up the logic state. And, as transistors get smaller it takes less of a hit to cause a state change. To compound this, as the size of the chips get bigger, the area of the chip goes up and the chances that there is a collision that causes an upset increases. So you have to look at what you can do to minimize the impact of an upset. Because they WILL happen. Clearly, inserting the microprocessor in a neutron beam greatly accelerated the chances of an upset collision, which was the point of the test - to accelerate those failures so we could examine them. However, there is radiation all around you all the time and these things DO actually happen, albeit not very frequently. But in mission-critical applications, it's important to protect against this. Which they do, of course.
But, I know that the calculator I use in the shop wasn't considered mission-critical. So I blame ALL math errors on cosmic radiation! I'm with you, Jeff! That's what happens.
Kim
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The motion looks rather smooth -> I guess that you are rather happy with reaching this Milestone :cartwheel: :ThumbsUp:
Per :cheers:
I'm thrilled athow its coming out, keep going back to turn the crank more!
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...
Well, back in the olden days when I was working (almost 2 years ago, can you believe it?) I worked for Intel. One of the things I had the opportunity to do MANY years back was to participate in a trip to Los Almos National Labs where we subjected the microprocessor to a neutron beam. This was to test the likelihood of getting a logic upset in the chip resulting in errors. If a large particle, like a neutron, hits one of the transistors, it has the chance to bump elections around and mess up the logic state. And, as transistors get smaller it takes less of a hit to cause a state change. To compound this, as the size of the chips get bigger, the area of the chip goes up and the chances that there is a collision that causes an upset increases. So you have to look at what you can do to minimize the impact of an upset. Because they WILL happen. Clearly, inserting the microprocessor in a neutron beam greatly accelerated the chances of an upset collision, which was the point of the test - to accelerate those failures so we could examine them. However, there is radiation all around you all the time and these things DO actually happen, albeit not very frequently. But in mission-critical applications, it's important to protect against this. Which they do, of course.
But, I know that the calculator I use in the shop wasn't considered mission-critical. So I blame ALL math errors on cosmic radiation! I'm with you, Jeff! That's what happens.
If you're looking for exotic excuses to explain errors on electronic devices, you need to read up on "quantum entanglement"...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_entanglement
Basically, it allows you to posit an excuse based on the fact that the quantum effects in your calculator are somehow (Einstein said "spookily") correlated with effects on the other side of the universe. This happens faster than a speed of light signal could pass between the two particles so communication of any form is not possible.
It's certainly spooky but it does offer you the opportunity to blame your error on something happening on the other side of the universe, an argument that your detractors will have difficulty disproving. Moreover, you can cite obscure quantum mechanics papers that indicate that physicists think this is a real thing.
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...
Well, back in the olden days when I was working (almost 2 years ago, can you believe it?) I worked for Intel. One of the things I had the opportunity to do MANY years back was to participate in a trip to Los Almos National Labs where we subjected the microprocessor to a neutron beam. This was to test the likelihood of getting a logic upset in the chip resulting in errors. If a large particle, like a neutron, hits one of the transistors, it has the chance to bump elections around and mess up the logic state. And, as transistors get smaller it takes less of a hit to cause a state change. To compound this, as the size of the chips get bigger, the area of the chip goes up and the chances that there is a collision that causes an upset increases. So you have to look at what you can do to minimize the impact of an upset. Because they WILL happen. Clearly, inserting the microprocessor in a neutron beam greatly accelerated the chances of an upset collision, which was the point of the test - to accelerate those failures so we could examine them. However, there is radiation all around you all the time and these things DO actually happen, albeit not very frequently. But in mission-critical applications, it's important to protect against this. Which they do, of course.
But, I know that the calculator I use in the shop wasn't considered mission-critical. So I blame ALL math errors on cosmic radiation! I'm with you, Jeff! That's what happens.
If you're looking for exotic excuses to explain errors on electronic devices, you need to read up on "quantum entanglement"...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_entanglement (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_entanglement)
Basically, it allows you to posit an excuse based on the fact that the quantum effects in your calculator are somehow (Einstein said "spookily") correlated with effects on the other side of the universe. This happens faster than a speed of light signal could pass between the two particles so communication of any form is not possible.
It's certainly spooky but it does offer you the opportunity to blame your error on something happening on the other side of the universe, an argument that your detractors will have difficulty disproving. Moreover, you can cite obscure quantum mechanics papers that indicate that physicists think this is a real thing.
Aren't sneaky shop gnomes under the bench more believable than quantum spookies from across the universe? :Jester:
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I want to turn the crankshaft too...
You have successfully completed another stage.
Michael
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I want to turn the crankshaft too...
You have successfully completed another stage.
Michael
I almost don't want to start the next stage, just keep playing with it as is! :Lol:
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Last winter I had scored a big chunk of 4" brass roundbar from a commercial supplier, its an offcut from their normal business of truckload sales. I got a really good price on it, its big enough to get all four cylinders plus the HP valve body out of, with a big 6" chunk left over. I'm planning on using hole saws to core the pieces out, the way the dimensions work I can get the blocks for the HP cylinder and the HP valve out of the cores. The IP cylinder OD is bigger than the LP cylinders ID, so it will have to be from a chunk of its own, but the core from it can be used on some other project. Here are the three chunks sawn out of the main bar, which will make all four cylinders and HP valve. Sitting on top is a 4" faceplate I'll use for holding each on the lathe/mill. Each block is about 12.5 pounds!
(https://i.postimg.cc/N0Rb392k/IMG-3698.jpg)
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Hi all,
Just got sent a link to this video - I had mentioned it was coming back when I posted other pics from my recent trip up to the Maine Forest And Logging Museum. There was a professional cameraman there all day taking the raw footage for the guys who posted it. Its a nice sequence showing whats involved in getting the steam Lombard Log Hauler ready to run and showing it running. Its usually about 3 or 4 hours from a cold start to our first run of the day. The big clouds of steam in the middle of the video are from when we tested the safety valve, let it blow and reset on its own.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mVCozdkYuw
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Is that the famous engine machining elf Syl Linder I see in the orange pants below the centre bar? :Lol:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Is that the famous engine machining elf Syl Linder I see in the orange pants below the centre bar? :Lol:
He was taller before I dropped that cylinder blank on him.. :LittleDevil:
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"I can lift it I can"
"I bet you can't" sneaking extra weight on top in the form of a backplate :LittleDevil:
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A busy coupl eof days to get to this stage, but its working out well. The first low pressure cylinder blank and the high pressure cylinder blank have been cut from one of the pieces of big brass bar stock! Took some trial and error, but I've worked out the sequence - drilled the 4" faceplate for the bolt pattern around the rim of the LP cylinders, then clamped one of the bars to the 4" faceplate and drilled/tapped the first few screw holes in the brass to match. That was all done on the rotary table. Then, flipped the bar around and bolted it to the faceplate, and drilled the full pattern of holes for the cylinder cap in the end of the bar. Those holes were then used to turn the bar back around again and drill the hole pattern for the base end (on the original engine, the cylinder was cast in one piece with the bottom end cap as an integral piece, but thats not practical for the model so I'll bolt on the bottom end). Sorry, no pictures of that set of drilling, forgot to take any, will try to remember on the next one.
So, then the blank and faceplate were mounted on the lathe, at slow speed given the diameter/weight of it all, and drilled a pilot hole through the whole blank with a 1/4" drill, matching the pilot drill size on the hole saw. I tried using the hole saw in that setup on the lathe, but the torque from that large a diameter saw was too much for the small morse taper on the Sherline tailstock. I knew that I'd have to back the saw out frequently to clear chips, so I didn't want to use the mill and have to do that much cranking on the headstock. Instead went to the drill press, which makes that much easier. Worked well at first, but then the chuck worked its way loose on the spindle. Some faffing about to get that fixed - it scored a line in the spindle which had to be filed smooth again, then the chuck tapped back onto the spindle taper. This is an old Delta drill press thats been used and abused for the last 35 years!
Anyway, here is the setup on the drill press:
(https://i.postimg.cc/XJnqwTnf/IMG-3699.jpg)
Got the first side drilled (sawn? Sawndrilled?) down as far as the saw would go, which is just over halfway through the block. Then unbolted the blank from the faceplate, flipped it over, and bolted it down again to cut the other side through. All worked well, and the two holes met up cleanly since the pilot drill followed the hole I had drilled on the lathe.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sxX2L7Q1/IMG-3700.jpg)
You can see that the core has the ends recessed - thats to clear the arbor inside the saw where it sticks through the saw so I could cut all the way to the middle, just long enough!
Here is a look down inside, the holes met up quite evenly, I was worried about that! The little strips visible on the inside are the final bits of metal where the saw teeth met up in the middle.
(https://i.postimg.cc/wvFvF0BS/IMG-3701.jpg)
And the pieces back on the bench, sitting on top of the other two blanks. The first two blanks, for the LP cylinders, will be cored like this, and the cores are big enough to make the HP cylinder and the HP valve body (its a spool valve that sits next to the cylinder, only attached by the pipes). The IP cylinder diameter is almost as large as one of the LP cylinders, so its OD will just be turned onto the blank. The core of it will get used for some future project. The end caps for the LP and IP cylinders will be cut from the original bar, and the caps for the HP cylinder will likely be cut from some thick flat bar I have left from the pumping engine build.
Quite pleased with how that worked, next I'll duplicate these steps for the second low pressure cylinder...
:cheers:
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Nice.
I like that you are going to be able to use the core to make the HP cylinder 8)
Jo
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you now have me thinking of the option of hole sawing my brass boiler bases knocking off the corners so they can be worked on the lathe,, much faster than the rotary table on the mill, I have changed out to the extended cross-slide.. :headscratch: :cheers: or with the big hole they can be chucked up on the rotary with ease, no need to add mounting fixtures,, either way much of my limited shop time saved :whoohoo:
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Thanks Jo! And overall it went a lot quicker than boring out that huge mass of metal. On the big pumping engine I was able to get some cored bronze bar, but that was expensive, this way is a lot better. Looking in the catalogs I see that the hole saws come in a big variety of diameters and lengths, a new tool in the box.
Tghs, it does work well, just leave excess metal for trimming the hole, the saw does chatter at first and it does leave a rough surface that needs to be trued up.
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Started in on the second low pressure cylinder blank. Same process as first time, but remembered to take pictures this time! :shrug:
Here the blank is clamped to the faceplate with some long bar clamps, which are made for stringed instrument making (I have them since they are great on ship models too). Being the same diameter as the faceplate, it was easy to center up. First step is to center drill and drill the holes for the bolts around the perimeter of the base.
(https://i.postimg.cc/50N3P9Jp/IMG-3705.jpg)
To get all the way around, I used another clamp next to the first positions to let me move them partway around, then drilled the remaining holes. After this set is all tapped, I'll use these holes to bolt it to the faceplate, and can drill the ones in the other end. The top cap has twice as many holes as the base (the original, as mentioned earlier, has the bottom end cast into the cylinder, but I am bolting the base on to make it a LOT easier to make).
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: There's gonna be a heck of a swarf pile with these cylinders I think. The Mann truck and 40 or so shop elves with shovels oughta be able to keep ahead of it. :Lol:
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I love the hole saw technique you used to core the cylinder, Chris! Very neat! :popcorn: :ThumbsUp:
Kim
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: There's gonna be a heck of a swarf pile with these cylinders I think. The Mann truck and 40 or so shop elves with shovels oughta be able to keep ahead of it. :Lol:
Imagine the swarf if I didn't core them first?! :o
:cheers:
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If they ask about the hole saw just tell em you're installing a kitchen faucet....keep em guessing..... :Lol: :cheers:
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Started in on the second low pressure cylinder blank. Same process as first time, but remembered to take pictures this time! :shrug:
Here the blank is clamped to the faceplate with some long bar clamps, which are made for stringed instrument making (I have them since they are great on ship models too). Being the same diameter as the faceplate, it was easy to center up. First step is to center drill and drill the holes for the bolts around the perimeter of the base.
(https://i.postimg.cc/50N3P9Jp/IMG-3705.jpg)
To get all the way around, I used another clamp next to the first positions to let me move them partway around, then drilled the remaining holes. After this set is all tapped, I'll use these holes to bolt it to the faceplate, and can drill the ones in the other end. The top cap has twice as many holes as the base (the original, as mentioned earlier, has the bottom end cast into the cylinder, but I am bolting the base on to make it a LOT easier to make).
oh oh you need to tell us about those sexy clamps!.....
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Started in on the second low pressure cylinder blank. Same process as first time, but remembered to take pictures this time! :shrug:
Here the blank is clamped to the faceplate with some long bar clamps, which are made for stringed instrument making (I have them since they are great on ship models too). Being the same diameter as the faceplate, it was easy to center up. First step is to center drill and drill the holes for the bolts around the perimeter of the base.
(https://i.postimg.cc/50N3P9Jp/IMG-3705.jpg)
To get all the way around, I used another clamp next to the first positions to let me move them partway around, then drilled the remaining holes. After this set is all tapped, I'll use these holes to bolt it to the faceplate, and can drill the ones in the other end. The top cap has twice as many holes as the base (the original, as mentioned earlier, has the bottom end cast into the cylinder, but I am bolting the base on to make it a LOT easier to make).
oh oh you need to tell us about those sexy clamps!.....
I got them many decades ago for use in my ship models. At the time they were sold for instrument makers, to clamp up guitar parts, that sort of things. These days you can get them from a lot of places - google 'brass bar clamps' and you will get lots of hits on that sort of clamps. I have them in two sizes, one with thicker bars than the other, the thicker ones are longer than the thinner ones. They are not meant for putting a lot of pressure on, too much pressure and the bars will start to bend, but they are fine for glueing up parts, that sort of thing. I'm sure a similar thing could be made up easily by anyone here from some steel square bar, would need to broach the square holes though. Or make the bars round, like miniature pipe clamps. Hmmm, might make some myself! Thread the end going into the working end, other end is held by the set screw.
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they do work great!!! https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/hand-tools/clamps/bar/31169-miniature-brass-bar-clamps I think micromark might have them also..
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I've never seen those before. I must put them on my wish list...
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Amazon has them as well...
https://www.amazon.com/s?k=miniature+brass+bar+clamps&crid=1KIZU1KQ5H50B&sprefix=miniature+brass+bar%2Caps%2C177&ref=nb_sb_ss_ts-doa-p_1_19
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Be warned on the brass bar clamps, they are meant for clamping wood parts for glueing, they will not generate as much clamping force as a parallel macinist clamp since the bar will bend. There are also different thickness bars on the different length clamps, the thinner ones make less force. The ones I used were the thicker ones, and barely held enough to drill the first set of holes. But, no other clamps I had would fit and they were quicker than making a set of crossbars and threaded rods.
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wouldn't get the ones with small nurled screw ends,, they do need to be tightened down well to work,, the butterfly or T-bar is needed!!!
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Went through the same steps on the second LP cylinder, drilling perimeter end cap holes, drilling center out, counterboring end for the hole saw arbor to clear, then coring with the hole saw...
(https://i.postimg.cc/s2NCY4Mg/IMG-3706.jpg)
leaving me with the two LP cylinder blanks plus the cores to be used on the HP cylinder block.
(https://i.postimg.cc/vBxF3xnL/IMG-3707.jpg)
While the rotary table is set to the right distance, I want to drill the holes for the LP end caps as well, before resetting for the IP cylinder, which is the same style but a slightly smaller diameter. Normally, with only 3 cylinders, the LP would be around twice the diameter of the IP, but with two LP cylinders they are just slightly larger than the IP one is.
Lots more drilling in my future...
:cheers:
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As mentioned in the last post, I wanted to drill the mounting bolt pattern in the LP top caps while the rotary table was still in position for them from the cylinders. This time I could use normal parallel clamps, though I did have to shift them one by one as the table turned since they would hit the column, will try to remember to move the table out farther for the next set of smaller diameter parts. Still need to drill one more LP cap, then want to do the same for the bottom cap blanks.
These top caps appear to be excessively thick, but they need to be - on this engine the pistons are shaped like a shallow cone, and they stick up above the top of the cylinder walls in the center. The bottom caps will have a cone sticking up in the center so the swept volumes are the same top and bottom.
(https://i.postimg.cc/fyt05CWW/IMG-3708.jpg)
After spot drilling, went back around with the twist drills. I need to be able to bolt these caps to the faceplate which has 4-40 clearance holes, so every fourth hole in the caps was drilled in the tap size, the rest in clearance size. Later on I can drill out the tapped ones to clearance size. These holes don't go all the way through, just deep enough for the faceplate screws on the tapped ones. All of them go deeper than the thickness of the flange around the rim once its turned to shape on the lathe. The center of the caps get bored out and there is another smaller cap that covers that hole. That is how the original was made - I think so they could get at the top nut on the piston rod if need be without removing the entire cap, also that would be large enough for an inspection port. Lots to keep track of on this design.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZnGvQN08/IMG-3709.jpg)
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :cheers:
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Wow! There's going to be 48 studs holding those together! That's a lot of drilling & tapping there :o :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
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Wow! There's going to be 48 studs holding those together! That's a lot of drilling & tapping there :o :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
Actually a couple more - on the sides where the steam chests are, the caps get extended to cover the steam passages that come up the sides. I remember when Dave first showed me the plans, we were talking about the number and size of the bolts!
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Been alternating time outside (hot and muggy) with time in the shop drilling and tapping holes. Got the two LP cylinders all drilled and tapped on both ends, plus the blanks for the top and bottom caps. The end caps for the IP are also drilled and tapped, the IP cylinder itself is done on one end and ready to drill the other, then can core saw it out. The HP cylinder core needs to be trued up and drilled too... lots and lots of blanks to prep before any real shaping goes on! Whew!
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More to do, but you should know the drill by now! (To be repeated each time you get to this stage with a project.)
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More to do, but you should know the drill by now! (To be repeated each time you get to this stage with a project.)
Yup - I know the drill. And that drill. And the one over there... :Lol:
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Cylinder parts as far as a shop elf can see!
(https://i.postimg.cc/cL9bsTYm/IMG-3712.jpg)
The elves are sitting/standing on the LP cylinder and cap blanks, in the foreground is the IP blank all cored out, its caps are to the right of the elves. The HP blank (one of the sawn out cores) is behind the IP cylinder with its caps to the right. The HP blank is up next to be core drilled. The IP and HP cylinders naturally take smaller diameter hole saws, they are the red things to the right in the picture.
So, getting close to being able to start actual shaping of them, that will likely start on Monday since there are other events this weekend so not much shop time for a couple of days.
:cheers:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Syl Linder looks happy with the parts so far! Rocky is keeping a close eye on Syl and Bucket Bob, I notice. Probably for good reason, with those two...... :LittleDevil:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Syl Linder looks happy with the parts so far! Rocky is keeping a close eye on Syl and Bucket Bob, I notice. Probably for good reason, with those two...... :LittleDevil:
They thought that I was making them a firepit for their patio, and started piling firewood into it... :facepalm:
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That's a nice collection of cylinders and caps! And the elves look justifiably pleased with themselves! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Kim
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Awesome Dog!……. :Love:
:cheers:
Don
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Thanks guys!
This afternoon saw the last of the blanks roughed out, got the HP cylinder and cap blanks drilled and tapped, and cored the HP cylinder blank with a hole saw.
(https://i.postimg.cc/G2bScNtH/IMG-3713.jpg)
These final steps took a bit longer than I figured - was drilling the last set of holes when the mill started making nasty noises. :o Quickly traced it to the motor. It was still turning fine, but was overheating very fast, and was making gridy type noises rather than its normal quiet whirring sound. :zap:
Well, swarf! (to clean up what I really said)
FORTUNATELY, I had a spare in-the-box motor/speed control sitting on the shelf - if you recall a year or two (three?) ago I had picked up a spare short-bed Sherline lathe to use as a dedicated threading machine, since changing the setup back and forth from threading to normal use took a long long time, not worth the effort. When pricing out the bare lathe bed, without motor or any accessories, I noticed that for just a little bit more I could get the same bare lathe WITH a motor/speed control. The motor/speed control by itself is a lot of money, so that was unexpected. So, I bought the version with motor and just tucked the motor/electronics away for use as a spare, which I figured someday I might need given how many hours I put on my lathe and mill every year. Well, todays the day to use it! 8)
One difference from the older motors is that a few years ago they changed to an internal brush setup rather than the style where there are caps to remove the brushes and replace them (these are 90V DC motors with a speed control in a separate box). Their notes in the instructions say that the new style should last a lot longer than the old ones, which apparently they had trouble with. I checked the brushes on the old one, and they still had more than half the length left, so that was not the problem. My guess is that as the brushes wear on the old style the dust from them gets into bad places and caused problems (the way the motor is mounted on the mill the end with the brushes is at the top, motor is vertical). Thats just a guess on my part, I'm not going to attempt to dismantle the old motor.
Question for you all - is it worth trying to get the old motor looked at/refurbished, or is it just a dead weight for the bin? :shrug:
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The old motor is likely to be costly to fix if you took it to a rewind shop - if they would work on one that small. (as an example, many shops local to me will not touch anything smaller than washing machine style large frame 1/2 HP ones for rebuilding / rewinding.) I'd do two things - ask Sherline if there's a rebuild kit for your specific serial number / part number motor, or ask them to id the motor mfg and contact them. Second thing would be to tear the motor down, gently and with lots of pics, to see if you can see any obvious faults. Not ready for the bin just yet! Hope these ideas help. :cheers:
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I'd send Sherline an email with a picture of some of your projects and see what they can do for you Chris.....talk about inexpensive advertising!
Dave
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I'd send Sherline an email with a picture of some of your projects and see what they can do for you Chris.....talk about inexpensive advertising!
Dave
Some of them at Sherline should know me, they ran ads in Live Steam magazine during my Lombard build series that referenced the article!
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Just sent Sherline an email detailing what happened and asking if the motor is repairable/rebuildable, either by them or with a rebuild kit if such a thing exists. Will report back on what I hear! In past contacts they have always been responsive/helpful.
Chris
:cheers:
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I'd send Sherline an email with a picture of some of your projects and see what they can do for you Chris.....talk about inexpensive advertising!
Dave
Some of them at Sherline should know me, they ran ads in Live Steam magazine during my Lombard build series that referenced the article!
I'm sorry....the OHIO build is on another level son! :praise2:
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I'd send Sherline an email with a picture of some of your projects and see what they can do for you Chris.....talk about inexpensive advertising!
Dave
Some of them at Sherline should know me, they ran ads in Live Steam magazine during my Lombard build series that referenced the article!
I'm sorry....the OHIO build is on another level son! :praise2:
They haven't seen this build yet! Always fun to build projects bigger than the lathe/mill. The Ohio and Ward engines are in the BigUn class for me.
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Sorry about your motor problems! But as you say, with the number of hours you've put on your equipment, its inevitable that something's going to go sooner or later. And now seems to be that time! Hope Sherline can take care of you. You sure have taken care of them over the years!
Kim
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Sorry about your motor problems! But as you say, with the number of hours you've put on your equipment, its inevitable that something's going to go sooner or later. And now seems to be that time! Hope Sherline can take care of you. You sure have taken care of them over the years!
Kim
And having the spare motor unit its not slowing me down any.
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Been out of the shop over the weekend, Saturday I went up to the Tank Days at the Ontario Regiment museum up in Oshowa (just east of Toronto Canada) where I spent the day as a crewman on the M4 Sherman tank, learning all about it and getting to be in it during their afternoon show. What a fun time! Didn't get to actually drive, but did all the other positions on the crew. I'm uploading photos and videos from that, posting it soon. Sunday was another RC submarine run out at the local pond.
So, back in the shop today, I got started on shaping the outsides of the cylinder blanks! :cartwheel: Here is the HP cylinder, turned to shape on the outside. Still lots of other brackets, supports, valve body, etc to be added to it, but this is the basic shape.
(https://i.postimg.cc/qvkXX7MZ/IMG-3714.jpg)
Here it is without the bit of brass on the end that I used for the live center - this gave some extra support to the part and kept it from ringing as it was cut.
(https://i.postimg.cc/cLX7DNv1/IMG-3715.jpg)
and held up about where it will go on the engine. There will be brackets and support legs that hold it up in this position.
(https://i.postimg.cc/PqJW9FDW/IMG-3716.jpg)
Great to finally be up to this stage! Been giving lots of thought to how to shape and add on the other pieces, pretty sure the latest (of many) plans will work out well.
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Nice looking cylinder! It's getting exciging now! :popcorn: :ThumbsUp:
(Not that it hasn't been exciting all along, you know :Lol:)
Sounds like you had a great weekend! That would be a blast to get to be inside a tank and help run it! What fun!
Kim
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Okay, things are done uploading, so here goes on the Tank Days event up at the Ontario Regiment museum that I went to on Saturday. Here is the M4 Sherman that I joined the crew of for the day:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Hnn1ym8J/IMG-4806a.jpg)
This one is an H model, with diesel engines and a 76mm main gun. For the Tanks-Elf tour, start by climbing up on the front corner and looking down into the drivers position:
(https://i.postimg.cc/d0jbN38k/IMG-4756a.jpg)
Here is the view from the loaders position behind the driver
(https://i.postimg.cc/rs33RrLb/IMG-4761a.jpg)
Roomier inside than I expected. The hatches in the floor, among other places, are compartments that held rounds for the main gun. As I recall, could hold 75 shells, though lots of times they stacked extra on the floor (dangerous if shrapnel came in a hatch or port!) . The positions have little periscopes to see out when the hatches are down. They slide out and can be replaced if the outside glass was damaged.
(https://i.postimg.cc/LXyrRWQm/IMG-4765a.jpg)
These are the gunners controls. Vertical wheel is the elevation control, handle below/right of it is the turrent slew control, red bit off to far right is the manual turret slew if the electrics went down. On the floor were the firing pedals. The round white thing on the left is the barrel.
(https://i.postimg.cc/T1pBPcBg/IMG-4767a.jpg)
The Sherman was infected with a nasty parasite (me!)
(https://i.postimg.cc/9MJj0005/IMG-4819a.jpg)
LOTS of other tanks there, couple buildings full of them plus the thundering herd that was in the show.
(https://i.postimg.cc/m210f8YG/IMG-4743a.jpg)
This one in urban camo from Berlin
(https://i.postimg.cc/RZr2MKdJ/IMG-4778a.jpg)
My shop elves want this little armored car for their beer runs
(https://i.postimg.cc/TYyX2RXF/IMG-4781a.jpg)
Lots more in the main building/shop
(https://i.postimg.cc/QNY3rFvc/IMG-4782a.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/fbs4vm0Q/IMG-4783a.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/y8c49vxT/IMG-4784a.jpg)
Cool looking halftrack
(https://i.postimg.cc/tCLGYLqT/IMG-4786a.jpg)
This is John, one of the other crewmen on the Sherman, with 'his' tank - he served on one of these when he was in the service
(https://i.postimg.cc/kGH3NHWT/IMG-4798a.jpg)
They take groups of people out for rides in the personel carriers
(https://i.postimg.cc/CKC0ymVK/IMG-4800a.jpg)
Neat little carrier
(https://i.postimg.cc/j5sbRPs4/IMG-4821a.jpg)
more tanks outside. They have ones from a variety of countries, US, Canada, England, Russia...
(https://i.postimg.cc/59RZRZF3/IMG-4846a.jpg)
even the occasional truck
(https://i.postimg.cc/tgGbm8wf/IMG-4857a.jpg)
And finally, here is a longish video made from clips I took during the day, including riding around during the afternoon show and firing the gun a couple times with blank shells packed with black powder. In the second shot the stuff fluttering back is the paper wadding they put in above the powder. Also, the synchros on third gear are shot so the shift up to high gear include some nice grinding noises, but it works. Top speed was about 25 mph.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eog9Yjv-W0
Great fun there, I highly recommend a visit. They do quite a few shows every summer, and are open for visits other days as well.
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All good fun :)
The little armoured car looks like a British Daimler Ferret, successor to the Daimler Dingo.
The little carrier looks to be a British Bren gun carrier like the one Vixen is making.
You were lucky to have diesel Sherman ::) My father used to tell the tale of the version with the Wright radial engine that he had to recover from time to time (He was in REME, Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers) There was a panel with three buttons, Prime, Start and Fire Extinguisher. You pressed these in sequence until you got it safely running :thinking:
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What a great ride you had! Great video. Lots of great equipment at the Regiment. re the shop elves and the armoured car, if they do get one, be sure to chamber the MG for ju jubes and not jelly beans. Jelly beans leave a mark. (My shop gnomes have experimented on me, that's how I found out... bruising is almost gone, only 6 months later...) :Lol:
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Hmmm, that is about 25 minutes from me and I haven't been. Thought about it but didn't do it. Might have to try a little harder to do a visit.
You had that same grin you have when driving the Lombard :cheers:
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All good fun :)
The little armoured car looks like a British Daimler Ferret, successor to the Daimler Dingo.
The little carrier looks to be a British Bren gun carrier like the one Vixen is making.
You were lucky to have diesel Sherman ::) My father used to tell the tale of the version with the Wright radial engine that he had to recover from time to time (He was in REME, Royal Electrical and Mechanical Engineers) There was a panel with three buttons, Prime, Start and Fire Extinguisher. You pressed these in sequence until you got it safely running :thinking:
Correct on the Bren carrier, I remember John telling me the name.
As for the diesel engines, we did have one issue. After one of the laps, a guy on another tank was calling over to us and pointing down below the turret on ours. I looked over the edge, and saw fluid flowing out of the fill cap on the main deck. Turns out it was pumping diesel out! :o They had a problem a few weeks before with one of the fuel filters clogging and backing things up, turned out it happened again. We were able to finish the day with it at least so not too bad.
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Hmmm, that is about 25 minutes from me and I haven't been. Thought about it but didn't do it. Might have to try a little harder to do a visit.
You had that same grin you have when driving the Lombard :cheers:
Its just enough fun that I didn't hurt myself with the grin, but it was close! If you are that close you gotta go, well worth the visit. I splurged on the experience package, the normal rides are a lot cheaper, but I really enjoyed it.
Lets see, so far over the last few years I have driven three different Lombards (a lot of times), had a flight in a B-17 bomber, climbed up and down two huge water pumping steam engines, ridden on a Shay and a Heisler locomotive, climbed all over a Marion steam shove a number of times, fed giraffes, ridden an elephant, flown a hawk, nearly been beheaded at the tower of london for taking pictures in the jewel house, did some glassblowing, and this fall will be cruising on a steam powered Liberty ship. What do I do next year? :Lol:
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What a great ride you had! Great video. Lots of great equipment at the Regiment. re the shop elves and the armoured car, if they do get one, be sure to chamber the MG for ju jubes and not jelly beans. Jelly beans leave a mark. (My shop gnomes have experimented on me, that's how I found out... bruising is almost gone, only 6 months later...) :Lol:
Maybe dry Nerf balls. The wet ones hurt too!
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The other day I had posted about the issue with the motor on my Sherline mill. Here is part of their reply:
If the motor turns smoothly with no power, power on, it starts to grind and overheat. This could be a bad Rotor, commutator or internal wiring, I don’t think it’s the bearings…….We do not repair motors (exception of brush replacement) nor do we sell any repair kits as such.
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What do I do next year?
Pretty sure it WON'T be diving on the Titanic with Oceangate, as they've shut down all commercial operations.
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What do I do next year?
Pretty sure it WON'T be diving on the Titanic with Oceangate, as they've shut down all commercial operations.
Even before they imploded, Nope!
There are still some other vintage aircraft flights that are interesting. Some of the aircraft museums offer flights. Too bad there isn't a Spitfire flying over here, that would be a fun one. Oh, and at least I got on the Sabino passenger steamer a bunch of times when it still ran on steam.
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I see they even have my M60A1 Patton Main battle tank I was Loader Then Driver Then Tank Commander on one in Germany. Conn Barracks Schwienfurt Germany. 2nd Platoon, CO B, 64th Armored Battalion 3rd ID 1964 -1967. Love those tanks. Wish I could find a motorized model of one.
Great job on the build.
Ron
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I see they even have my M60A1 Patton Main battle tank I was Loader Then Driver Then Tank Commander on one in Germany. Conn Barracks Schwienfurt Germany. 2nd Platoon, CO B, 64th Armored Battalion 3rd ID 1964 -1967. Love those tanks. Wish I could find a motorized model of one.
Great job on the build.
Ron
They were running the M60 during the show, quite impressive! I just did a web search for M60A1 RC Model, and found a number of sites that have them!
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Thanks George.
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Thanks George.
Chris, George is the other guy! :)
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Got the IP cylinder outside profile turned in like the HP one was...
(https://i.postimg.cc/3rgP87nJ/IMG-3717.jpg)
and have started in on the first of the LP cylinders. Had to use a faceplate for the live center support, didn't have any offcuts the right size.
(https://i.postimg.cc/kXqLDZpN/IMG-3718.jpg)
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Those are the fanciest thread spools I've seen so far! :Lol: Looking great!
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Those are the fanciest thread spools I've seen so far! :Lol: Looking great!
They look kinda like reels for deep sea fishing! Heavy enough to hold cable for catching small ships... :Lol:
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The othjer day I had remarked on the problems I had with the electric motor on my Sherline mill, nasty noises but still running, but getting hot really fast. I took your suggestions and contacted Sherline, but they don't offer any rebuild service or parts for them. They did tell me that the speed control is common to the newer motors (that was another question I asked) so at worst if the motor was scrap I could keep the electronics box as a spare if ever needed. They did say that since it would turn freely, the bearings were probably still okay and the problem was likely with the rotor.
So, this afternoon I figured there was nothing to lose in taking the motor apart and seeing what was inside. I had resisted this due to past experience of trying to take apart an AC motor, they way that one was constructed it was very hard to do without damaging things and I wound up scrapping it (that was not from Sherline, that was another tool). This one, a 90Volt DC motor, came apart very easily, I took out the brushes, undid two long bolts, and the housing came right apart at both ends and I could slide out the rotor.
All looks good on the inside, though it was coated in fine brown dust everywhere - had to wipe and vacuum out everythig. My guess is that the dust was getting between the rotor and the magnets, causing the noise, and maybe arcing. The one thing I noticed, is the shape of the pieces the brushes ride against. I don't know if this is the normal shape, of if the depressed area is from wear - hence this post to ask you all:
(https://i.postimg.cc/VLnwXbqq/IMG-3722.jpg)
There is still about 1/2" of the brushes left intact, no sign of anything chipping off, and the magnets/rotor all look nice and clean (once the dust cleaned off).
So, couple questions for you:- Is the brown dust whats left of those contacts wearing, or something else?
- Is it likely to be okay to use? The contacts still have some depth left to them, they are not worn through anywhere
I re-assembled it and tested, now it runs nice and quiet again, runs through the speed range (variable speed knob on the control box) from dead slow to high just fine. Sounds like I have a used spare motor? Or is it going to destruct again after some use?
Thanks for any information!! :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Chris
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Fascinating! If that groove is from wear, that's a LOT of wear! :o
You could open up the new motor you just installed and see how it looks. Then you'd know if that groove is normal or it's worn. :Lol:
Kim
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Fascinating! If that groove is from wear, that's a LOT of wear! :o
You could open up the new motor you just installed and see how it looks. Then you'd know if that groove is normal or it's worn. :Lol:
Kim
Um, No! Maybe I can stuff a shop elf down the inside of the wire insulation... :LittleDevil: Ooohhhh, turn off the power first, sorry! :lolb:
The new style motors that Sherline has switched to are internal brushed motors, which are probably more complicated to take apart and put back together. I'm not going to risk that, given Sherline's explanation of problems with even removing/replacing brushes in the old motors, saying wear issues there were why they changed three years ago.
I do have the old motor still on the lathe, but I am not going to risk that one either! Yup, I'm chicken! Cluck! :Jester: I figure there are enough motor-savvy people here on the forum that someone will know.
:cheers:
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The othjer day I had remarked on the problems I had with the electric motor on my Sherline mill, nasty noises but still running, but getting hot really fast. I took your suggestions and contacted Sherline, but they don't offer any rebuild service or parts for them. They did tell me that the speed control is common to the newer motors (that was another question I asked) so at worst if the motor was scrap I could keep the electronics box as a spare if ever needed. They did say that since it would turn freely, the bearings were probably still okay and the problem was likely with the rotor.
So, this afternoon I figured there was nothing to lose in taking the motor apart and seeing what was inside. I had resisted this due to past experience of trying to take apart an AC motor, they way that one was constructed it was very hard to do without damaging things and I wound up scrapping it (that was not from Sherline, that was another tool). This one, a 90Volt DC motor, came apart very easily, I took out the brushes, undid two long bolts, and the housing came right apart at both ends and I could slide out the rotor.
All looks good on the inside, though it was coated in fine brown dust everywhere - had to wipe and vacuum out everythig. My guess is that the dust was getting between the rotor and the magnets, causing the noise, and maybe arcing. The one thing I noticed, is the shape of the pieces the brushes ride against. I don't know if this is the normal shape, of if the depressed area is from wear - hence this post to ask you all:
(https://i.postimg.cc/VLnwXbqq/IMG-3722.jpg)
There is still about 1/2" of the brushes left intact, no sign of anything chipping off, and the magnets/rotor all look nice and clean (once the dust cleaned off).
So, couple questions for you:- Is the brown dust whats left of those contacts wearing, or something else?
- Is it likely to be okay to use? The contacts still have some depth left to them, they are not worn through anywhere
I re-assembled it and tested, now it runs nice and quiet again, runs through the speed range (variable speed knob on the control box) from dead slow to high just fine. Sounds like I have a used spare motor? Or is it going to destruct again after some use?
Thanks for any information!! :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Chris
As long as the brushes run OK , and you dont have any commutation issues, I don't see a problem.
Dave
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Thanks Dave! I'll keep it as a spare then. As far as I can tell, this is the original motor from my first Sherline mill, with a couple million hours/miles on it. Its been on a couple different columns and base units over the years, guess the running hours finally wore enough off the contacts to clog it up with the dust. No complaints, got my moneys worth from it, and after a cleanout its still going. The new one is already in place, not worth swapping back but I'll keep this one on the shelf and let it rest up for a while!
:cheers:
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Thanks Dave! I'll keep it as a spare then. As far as I can tell, this is the original motor from my first Sherline mill, with a couple million hours/miles on it. Its been on a couple different columns and base units over the years, guess the running hours finally wore enough off the contacts to clog it up with the dust. No complaints, got my moneys worth from it, and after a cleanout its still going. The new one is already in place, not worth swapping back but I'll keep this one on the shelf and let it rest up for a while!
:cheers:
I suspect the dust is from the brushes, and it was caught in between the commutations and shorting them out. Cleaning it probably solved that problem. but keep in mind the commutators are getting narrow, as the OD wears down.. Not sure what that's going to do for you timing....but no matter, it doesn't owe you anything at this point.
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That's a lot of wear. One thing that happens is is the carbon and debris fills the gap between the pole pieces on the commutator (where the brushes ride) and causes arcing between them. You can get more use from the motor just by cleaning between the pole pieces.
Also as the copper wears away the commutator looses it's ability to radiate away the heat.
Since replacements are readily available I would use it until it fails myself. Be sure to replace the brushes in the same orientation as they were removed.
Eric
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Thanks guys! I was careful to keep track on the brushes so they should be back in the same, and everything is clean again. If this motor is the original one as I suspect, its got at least 15 years of heavy use on it and more of occasional use, not bad for a light hobby machine.
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Don't be tempted to 'polish' the commutator. Purpley brown is the right colour for a healthy commutator, I was told.
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I'm surprised Sherline didn't want that motor for their museum. I have never heard of any one else pushing those machines as far as you do.
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hi on your tube tryally Tech Tools show now to over haul sherline 90v dc motor . Replace commutator over 3 parts feb last year
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looks like you can ebay the commutators!!!!
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hi on your tube tryally Tech Tools show now to over haul sherline 90v dc motor . Replace commutator over 3 parts feb last year
Just finished watching his videos, quite interesting! I am not sure if I am willing to go that route, but it was good to see how it all works and how it was supposed to look. My brushes were still in great shape, so not as far worn as the one he showed, and I think I have a little more left on the cummutator than his but its still pretty worn.
Thanks!
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The LP cylinders have been profiled on the outside. Here is one after turning and one before turning the outside
(https://i.postimg.cc/bJtBMrxx/IMG-3720.jpg)
and both turned to shape. The elves seem to approve.
(https://i.postimg.cc/44p0QKNZ/IMG-3724.jpg)
With all the cylinders profiled, I decided to work on the top cap for the HP next. Back on the faceplate for turning
(https://i.postimg.cc/7hrWy49p/IMG-3725.jpg)
The hole in the center is left over from the coring operation - this piece was taken from one of the LP cores that were sawn out. These caps are quite a bit thicker than most engines since the pistons are a disc in the outside area, then cone up in the center. The thicker cap allows the cone portion to stick up into the inside of the cap, so it will need to be hollowed out. The existing hole will give a good spot to start boring. Also, the center of the cap is left open, and there is a second cap piece that will bolt on over the opening. This gave them access to the piston rod nut and into the inside of the cylinder without removing the entire cylinder cap.
Here I am drilling for the mounting holes for the top cap cap ( :Lol: )
(https://i.postimg.cc/br0Fy5Fd/IMG-3726.jpg)
and the upper cap was turned from a smaller piece of bar and also gets drilled clearance for the screws
(https://i.postimg.cc/DyFMj28G/IMG-3727.jpg)
Here are the two caps set together - still need to thread the holes and then start boring out the center and underside of the cap.
(https://i.postimg.cc/WbnfxQkH/IMG-3728.jpg)
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Great use of what would otherwise be scrap (or swarf), Chris! The whole stack kinda looks like a Jules Verne rocket, or steam punk or something. Very cool looking! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: I guess the cap cap is similar to construction guys wearing a hard hat over a toque! :Lol: Parts look great Chris.
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Thanks guys! They remind me a bit of some of the early bronze mortars/bombards, but don't tell my shop elves that!
Oh, wait, they read this too... :wallbang:
YeS,, wE dO!
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Chris I would turn down the commutator to even the bars out, then use a sharp hacksaw blade and undercut the mica between the commutator bars. The mica will cause sparking if not addressed so cut it below the commutator. Mica is hard and cause brushes to bounce and spark causing the commutator to heat up.
By the way sone more excellent work…..
Regards Don
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Chris I would turn down the commutator to even the bars out, then use a sharp hacksaw blade and undercut the mica between the commutator bars. The mica will cause sparking if not addressed so cut it below the commutator. Mica is hard and cause brushes to bounce and spark causing the commutator to heat up.
By the way sone more excellent work…..
Regards Don
Thanks Don!
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A bunch of progress on the HP cylinder parts. The cap center was bored out for clearance for the top of the conical piston head
(https://i.postimg.cc/sxbfvNXR/IMG-3729.jpg)
and the underside was taper bored for the same reason
(https://i.postimg.cc/J7Fz6GQd/IMG-3730.jpg)
The upper cap was also drilled/bored out for the piston rod end nut
(https://i.postimg.cc/8CTpJW1s/IMG-3731.jpg)
Here is the cap set in place, showing the center hole
(https://i.postimg.cc/W1Gp1ScQ/IMG-3732.jpg)
and with its little 'hat' in place and Rocky standing next to to for scale - he is proper scale for this engine, shows how big the cylinders are!
(https://i.postimg.cc/Bn9Q3kkT/IMG-3733.jpg)
Next up was to shape the bottom cap. The center of the cap tapers upwards to match the shape of the top cap, so the swept volumes match, and also this gives support for the piston rod gland. First turned the rim back to form the flange
(https://i.postimg.cc/tCVCLpSR/IMG-3734.jpg)
and bored out for the gland. I left this slightly undersized, I'll finish it later on when boring the cylinder out, will bolt on the bottom cap and finish boring the gland hole so everything is concentric. There will also be a row of bolt holes around the outside to hold the gland in place.
(https://i.postimg.cc/RhWVCBvR/IMG-3735.jpg)
Then tpaered the outside of the center portion. The underside of the piston is a hollow cone to match its upper surface, so this lets the piston come down all the way.
(https://i.postimg.cc/25Tz466G/IMG-3736.jpg)
The parts so far:
(https://i.postimg.cc/HxxT3g8g/IMG-3737.jpg)
Now, you might think the HP cylinder parts are about done. Well, not even close! Still need to add on the brackets to hold the stay rods that run along the outside of the cylinders to steady one to the next, add the angled posts that connect to the support columns on one side, and the large mounting block that connects to the top of the crosshead columns on the other side. And the HP cylinder has a separate valve block with large flattened curved passages that connect to the outside of the cylinder. The caps need to have extensions on that side to cover the steam passages. Lots more to do on these few parts.
:cheers:
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The caps and cylinders are looking very nice, Chris! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
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Very good work!
And you can see where the journey is going. It's a massive project in brass.
Michael
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Thanks guys!
Bit of a break from the model, had to make some tweaks to the drivers sear in the new mazda, the way they formed the foam it dug into the back of my legs above the knees, on long trips that got painful. Not enough travel down on the front adjuster, so I made some plates to jack up the foam in the back edge of the seat. Much better now! Time to go outside on the porch and relax in the rocking chair!
:cheers:
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This morning saw the IP bottom cap turned to shape. As with the HP bottom cap, the center hole will be taken to final ID when the IP cylinder is bored later on so they are concentric. Also will add the bolts around that hole for the piston rod gland at that time.
(https://i.postimg.cc/6QZ7Kjkk/IMG-3749.jpg)
Next up: you guessed it, the IP top caps..
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so I made some plates to jack up the foam in the back edge of the seat. Much better now!
At least you made the seat modifications so that they are un-do-able, unlike the original owner of the Miata seats they used in Fanatik Builds' LS to Triumph GT6R restomod.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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so I made some plates to jack up the foam in the back edge of the seat. Much better now!
At least you made the seat modifications so that they are un-do-able, unlike the original owner of the Miata seats they used in Fanatik Builds' LS to Triumph GT6R restomod.
This is the second round of mods, so far I like the results this time. Got to take a longer drive to be sure. This is on the new CX-50 SUV, has the multi-way electric adjustments, they just went a little far with the side bolsters and not far enough with the front edge adjustment, the seat is longer front to back than the older models. My old (17 years) Miata has a great seat on it, only thing I had to do on that was put a new cover on when the original cloth wore through on the side where I slide into the car.Any time I've bought a new chair, for office or house, its always been a long process of going round to lots of stores trying out all the different brands - some of them must have been designed by people who have never sat in a chair before! :Lol:
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More turning done on the IP cylinder cap, same steps as on the HP cap. Now have a pair of huge salt/pepper shakers. Or the next generation of Daleks..
(https://i.postimg.cc/prfJqQYj/IMG-3750.jpg)
Two shaped to this stage, two more (LP1 and L:P2) to go... After that can start in on all the pieces that go on them, steam chests, supports, brackets, passages, etc.
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Whatever you want to call them, those do look awesome! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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The shop elves showed me this picture they found on the web. Now I need to lock up the spare plumbing parts!
(https://i.postimg.cc/Lskyyp95/Lamp1.jpg)
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Nice use of plumbing parts!
You're Daleks are sure coming along nicely, Chris. You do good work! :popcorn: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Kim
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Turning away on the LP cylinder caps like was done on the IP and HP, but got a bit distracted when in the mail turned up...
A NEW TOOL!
:pinkelephant: :whoohoo:
(https://i.postimg.cc/bJKkKqxk/IMG-3751.jpg)
I had been looking around on and off for a slightlly larger chuck for the lathe, for use when using the riser blocks so it would handle a larger diameter chuck and make it easier to hold parts like flywheels and big cylinders (like now!) Never had much luck, then while searching for chucks with the 3/4"-16 spindle thread I stumbled across this one on fleabay. Its a 3 jaw scroll chuck from an old Atlas lathe, with the right spindle thread. I was still wondering if it would fit, since like the faceplates I had found from a woodworking lathe its common for the threads to be recessed into the opening - on the faceplates I had to turn them around and turn off most of the shoulder. The pictures of this one looked like it should fit, so I took a gamble on it, and it fits perfect! As you can see with it sitting next to the original Sherline, its about an inch larger diameter. The Sherline chucks are a 3.1" OD, this is a 4" chuck. It can hold a max of about 4.5" diameter stock with the outside jaws, where the Sherline maxes out at 3.55" OD holding.
It should make holding the LP caps when reversed to turn the inside a lot easier, and would have made holding the original blanks for drilling the perimeter holes a snap, no need for those bar clamps.
It came with the normal forward and also the reverse jaws and the chuck key. Looks like it was hardly used, if at all, just shows nice aging on the surface patina, no rust, and still had packing grease in the teeth of the spare jaws.
(https://i.postimg.cc/C5kk097t/IMG-3752.jpg)
Since I know it works perfect now, I went back and bought his other chuck, same setup but its the 4-jaw independant chuck. They should make for a couple useful addition to the tool set, and the 3-jaw will be used in the next day or so to turn the inside recesses on the LP caps. :cartwheel:
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Hi Chris, you've bought yourself a useful new tool.
And I like the iron man a lot too. I also bought these plumbing parts and built a shelf in the kitchen. With accessories.
Michael
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Congrats on the new chuck, Chris. Looks like a great find! :ThumbsUp: ;D
Michael, that's a nice looking shelf! Good use of plumbing fixtures ;)
Kim
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: That chuck looks so classy and nice you should probably call it Charles! :Lol:
That will enable a lot of fine work, I'm sure. :cheers:
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Congratulations on the new Chuck - this will be a very usefull addition :cartwheel:
The Cylinders and their 'Hats' are comming along nicely (and Brass cut with a sharp tool, always has that Bling :D ). Also good that yu could 'Core them' and use that too :ThumbsUp:
Per :cheers: :popcorn:
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The new/old chuck arrived at a perfect time, not sure how I would have held the caps to taper recess the undersides. Worked perfectly!
(https://i.postimg.cc/pXmwHHwr/IMG-3753.jpg)
Three top caps/two bottom caps complete, last top cap is about half done now. Couple more days of lathe work should see them all done.
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Excellent :praise2: :praise2: New toys are always good :) :wine1:
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The turning is done on the last of the cylinder caps, the lower LP ones.
(https://i.postimg.cc/YqPYnhLX/IMG-3754.jpg)
That completes the shaping on the outsides of the cylinders and upper/lower caps. The bores on the cylinders will be done after all the other appendages are made and soldered on, just in case there is any movement during the heating.
Here are the parts so far, doing a good imitation of a shelf full of giant salt and pepper shakers, with the proper scale shop elves there for an idea of how big the real ones were:
(https://i.postimg.cc/0yJmLPp9/IMG-3755.jpg)
Next up is to figure out how to construct the steam chests for the IP/LP cylinders. The HP valve body is a standalone piece hanging off the side of the HP cylinder on its pipes, while the rest are integral to the cylinder bodies. On the real ones they were cast in, but for the model they will be added on, temporarily screwed in place and then silver soldered. The cylinder walls are thick enough for some short screws to go in without going through into the bore, with a bit of care!
Here are some screen shots from the CAD model to show where I need to go with the cylinders. These are of the IP cylinder - LP is same basic shape but larger diameter.
(https://i.postimg.cc/xTXbznpL/IP-Cylinder-1.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/3Jz0jVzV/IP-Cylinder-2.jpg)
Just a few things to add... The angled round things at the bottom of the cylinder are the supports that sit on the columns sticking up from the engine bed. The rectangular block on the other side is the support that sits on top of the crosshead guide column. The horizontal tubes in brackets on the cylinder are the stay bolt holders - there are long rods running from cylinder to cylinder to stiffen up the whole assembly. The forked thing hanging out the bottom of the steam chest is the valve rod guide. The steam chest itself has passages top and bottom to connect into the cylinder end, those passages include sections in the top/bottom caps.
First thing I am going to work on is the bases for the steam chests. They wrap around the cylinders, and go in far enough that I cannot just mill a flat and add a block, or it would extend well into the cylinder bore. So, looks like they will be pieced up, with a set of parts shaped to fit onto the cylinder side, and then another block on that with all the passages in it. The steam chest itself will likely be pieced up from four rails soldered together into the hollow box, otherwise it would take a huge piece that would have the center cut away (the steam chest box is about 3/4" thick, almost 3" wide, and 3.75" tall). The IP and LP steam chests and valves are all the same size, just the connection to the cylinder differs for the different diameters.
Task for today is to go through my bar stock shelves and decide how to piece things up...
:cheers:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Looks like you've got some more work ahead of you Chris! This is a mammoth undertaking!
Kim
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I foresee a LOT of Milling and Soldering in your Future, Chris :cheers:
Great looking Cylinders so far :ThumbsUp:
Per
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Thanks guys! :cheers:
After a bunch of measuring, sketching, thinking, rethinking, and almost starting, I have settled in on one of the many ways the steam chest bases could be added to the cylinders. The bases need to be fit to the curve of the cylinder outer walls, and flare out to the full width of the steam chests. The bases themselves have no internal passages like a typical steam chest base would, rather the passages wrap around the ends of the cylinders into the caps, which get extension blocks as well. So, there is no reason I have to make the bases solid, which simplifies things greatly. There will be thicker blocks attached to these bases that have the passages internally.
So, what I need are thicker blocks (to allow for screws to hold the chests) at either end, fitted to the cylinder walls, with thinner bars down the sides to make them look solid. I started with shaping the thicker end blocks. A piece of aluminum bar was bolted to the tooling plate on the rotary table, with screws going through it sideways into the parts to hold them. The bar was positioned on the tooling plate so that the part would be held the right distance away to mill the arcs on the LP cylinders. An additional spacer will be used to mill the IP blocks, which have a slightly smaller diameter.
(https://i.postimg.cc/15PFMB1M/IMG-3756.jpg)
Here is the first block bolted to the bar, and with the arc milled in. The other four LP blocks were milled to match, then a spacer put in next to the bar to mill the two IP blocks to their arc. The screws through the bar were positioned slightly high to hold the blocks just off the tooling plate so I could mill all the way through without digging into the tooling plate.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Hkky1Lxy/IMG-3757.jpg)
Test fit showing the close fit on the cylinder outer walls. When these blocks and the side walls are all screwed together and to the cylinder they will be able to be silver soldered easily, adding solder on the inside corners to flow through the joints. As mentioned, these spaces have no passages so its not critical to be airtight, just a solid attachment.
(https://i.postimg.cc/BQgKzFq3/IMG-3758.jpg)
To have the side walls flare out to the full width of the rest of the steam chest, the ends of the blocks need to all get the same angle. Repositioned the bar with screw holes added near the end, and the angle could be set for trimming the blocks.
(https://i.postimg.cc/bwV2yjDF/IMG-3759.jpg)
Here is the first one with the ends trimmed. The side walls will be held to the angled ends with temporary screws for soldering.
(https://i.postimg.cc/BZ2DxykX/IMG-3760.jpg)
More blocks to cut the angles into, then will start drilling/tapping for the temporary screws...
:cheers:
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this will be a great learning experience and fun to watch :cartwheel:
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this will be a great learning experience and fun to watch :cartwheel:
For me too, I'm just watching from a lot closer! :Lol:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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I get dizzy just watching from afar!
It will probably be the most difficult parts I have ever seen. But who should do it if not you 👍
Michael
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I get dizzy just watching from afar!
It will probably be the most difficult parts I have ever seen. But who should do it if not you 👍
Michael
Thanks? Its taken a lot of thought and planning to figure out how to do these parts, and I am still changing plans as I get to each step!
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All six of the end blocks have been milled for the arcs and the end angles, and the holding block has been unbolted from the rotary table and put into the mill vise to hold the blocks for drilling the ends...
(https://i.postimg.cc/N04Gs6zG/IMG-3761.jpg)
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Awwwww no soldering on the cylinders ….? Where’s your trust in soldering skills Dog? But then seems like a good plan waiting and watching…. :Love:
:cheers:
Don
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Awwwww no soldering on the cylinders ….? Where’s your trust in soldering skills Dog? But then seems like a good plan waiting and watching…. :Love:
:cheers:
Don
Quite the opposite Don, I will be doing Lots of soldering on the cylinders! The screws are just for holding it for soldering, then will take the screw heads off flush. There are way too many parts to solder on and just use clamps. All the brackets and supports will be soldered on plus these steam chest bases. The outer layers of the chests will bolt on as usual.
I am waiting to do the final bores on the cylinders till after all the soldering is done.
:cheers:
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By holding the parts together for soldering reduces the heat loss when using clamps is this also another reason for using this method.
Still watching in amazement at the craftsmanship of the build and at the speed you are progressing
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By holding the parts together for soldering reduces the heat loss when using clamps is this also another reason for using this method.
Still watching in amazement at the craftsmanship of the build and at the speed you are progressing
Thanks! Using temporary screws also saves the heat damage to the clamps, and as you say the clamps would wick off some of the heat. The cylinders have a lot of mass, so it will take one of the mid- to large torch tips. I've got a bunch of brass screws, so after soldering they cut off and blend in well.
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This will give a better idea of the parts for the steam chest bases and why some temporary screws are needed for silver soldering them to the cylinder. Got the first set of side panels cut and fitted:
(https://i.postimg.cc/7Z1XJ10W/IMG-3762.jpg)
Here it is set on the IP cylinder to mark where a notch is needed in each side panel to fit over the center rib on the cylinder:
(https://i.postimg.cc/W1cX4YFZ/IMG-3763.jpg)
I'll put another brass screw through one of the holes in the base flange to hold the parts for soldering. First I need to finish up the other two bases and get the notches cut...
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Bueno notches! (even though it's only morning) :embarassed: :Lol:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Bueno notches! (even though it's only morning) :embarassed: :Lol:
Google translated that as Good Doritos! :Jester:
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All three sets of steam chest bases are notched and fitted to their cylinders...
(https://i.postimg.cc/1XhfFdxx/IMG-3764.jpg)
After they are silver soldered in place, I'll take a pass on the mill to even up the side walls with the end blocks, for now the side walls stick up a bit. They need to be level with the tops of the end blocks.
Next up will be to start on the rest of the brackets and such that stick out of the cylinder side walls. I think I'll start with the stay bolt brackets, two of those on either side of each cylinder. They are at two different heights, there is one stay rod that goes from the HP to the IP cylinders, and another set that goes from the IP across the two LP cylinders, since the diameters are so different. The stay rods and the brackets are visible in this CAD screen capture that was shown a long way back. The rods are the horizontal pink ones:
(https://i.postimg.cc/sfZSBxjt/Ohio_Engine_CAD_Model.jpg)
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Looking at the last posted '3D drawing' - do you have to be carefull about the position of the steamchest in relation to the already drilled holes for the 'Lids' - or will that only apply to all the following solder / milling opperations :headscratch:
I like your approx so far :cheers:
Per
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Looking at the last posted '3D drawing' - do you have to be carefull about the position of the steamchest in relation to the already drilled holes for the 'Lids' - or will that only apply to all the following solder / milling opperations :headscratch:
I like your approx so far :cheers:
Per
The caps are currently in just the round form - they will be flattened on one side and another block soldered on to form the extension that will go out over the steam chest. That extension is where the passage for the steam will be at either end of the cylinder. On a typical steam engine, we usually drill the passages through the side of the cylinders, but on this engine the passages all loop over the end of the cylinders and back through the end caps. So, where the holes are at the extensions will be trimmed off, and new holes drilled. There may well be one or two holes that I'll have to plug, but since they will be all painted that plug won't show. I'll do that extending after the silver soldering is done and I start work on the rest of the steam chest, since it all connects in to the passages in parts not made yet. Complicated? Yes! Fun? I hope so! :Lol: This engine has features in it I've never encountered before, which is a lot of the fun of it for me. Building the same old engine style over and over gets boring, more fun to push my limits on something new.
:cheers: :cheers:
EDIT: Um, wait, just remembered, when I put in the temp screws to hold the base frames to the cylinders, I DID line up the frames so they were centered on the cap hole patterns, so that when I later add the extra blocks and add the new holes, the patterns on both sides would be the same. Not critical, but it will make things look even and correct. :cheers:
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And back to mass production of parts. This time its the brackets that hold the horizontal stay rods on the sides of the cylinders to reduce movement side to side. There are two rods running down either side of the cylinders, so I need 16 of the brackets. The ones one each cylinder are a similar shape but the distance of each rod to the edge of the cylinders is different for the HP, LP, and IP sets, so the length of each bracket set will vary. The brackets are tapered from the cylinder down to the rod, so the width of each set also varies. :insane:
They could all be pieced up from thinner stock, but that would be quite tedious, so I am going to mill them out of thicker flat stock. The shop elves got up early this morning and took a bar of brass up to the bandsaw, and cut me out this nice stack of bricks. Three lengths, one for each cylinder size.
(https://i.postimg.cc/gcTt1wQB/IMG-3765.jpg)
Before they could load the bricks into their private vault, I got them over to the mill to true up the sawn ends, four at a time so that went quickly.
(https://i.postimg.cc/YqLD7rw2/IMG-3766.jpg)
Then I started drilling the holes in the outer ends to take the round rod that the stays will pass through.
(https://i.postimg.cc/XYMH7RVf/IMG-3767.jpg)
The IP brackets will need two holes in each, since the stay rods between the HP and IP are closer to the center line, as shown here:
(https://i.postimg.cc/sfZSBxjt/Ohio_Engine_CAD_Model.jpg)
The brackets are shaped like an I beam on its side. To attach them to the cylinders I'll mill a shallow groove in the cylinder side, insert each bracket, stake them in place, and silver solder them. All the soldering will happen later after all the parts are fitted, so I can use one set of heats to attach the steam chest bases, these brackets, and probably the cylinder mounting brackets.
More drilling...
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It had to have been a real BEAR to get the covers off the blue and orange steam chests. The others wouldn't really be a picnic either, but the orange and blue had to have been the worst. I DON'T envy the guys that had to work on them.
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It had to have been a real BEAR to get the covers off the blue and orange steam chests. The others wouldn't really be a picnic either, but the orange and blue had to have been the worst. I DON'T envy the guys that had to work on them.
I agree - the size alone means every part is very heavy, and not much working room. The design of the covers makes it just possible to get them off and get the slide valve out, but it would not be quick. Here is a closer view of the covers in that area:
(https://i.postimg.cc/kXnJBpfb/Steam-Chest-Covers.jpg)
I didn't model in the studs in the CAD model, but they would be in all the holes around the perimeter, one shown by the red arrow. Gets even more fun on the other side where all the steam pipes are! At least the depth of the cover gives room for wrenches/hands at the nuts, though they were several inches across so very heavy.
There is just enough room to get the cover off the studs - the gap between the covers shown by the green arrows is just over 5". With the cover off I think there was room to slide the dvalve back to the opening and lift it out, but it may be that they would have to remove the other cover as well, its close. And thats all assuming they removed the valve rod first!
All in all, it would have been a MAJOR operation to get in there. The covers and valves are something like 5 feet on a side, thats a heavy piece of iron!
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: as a friend of mine said once "into every life a little chain fall must fall" :Lol: He trained in the Canadian Navy as an ERA and knew of what he spoke. Lifting rings and chain falls or rail hoists would definitely be on call for getting the steam chest covers or the slide valves themselves out of the Ohio engine, I'm sure. (or 1134 shop elves - more, if they'd picked the lock on the spirit locker) :Lol:
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I suspect that heavy repairs requiring removal of the valve covers would have normally been carried out in a shipyard, not at sea. A specialist crew would be employed instead of the ordinary swabbies.
Of course in an emergency lots of things might be possible, but leaving a battleship dead in the water while being repaired for many hours or days is probably not a desired strategy.
Gene
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They did have an engine for each of the two propellers, so could still move if one was down. It would be interesting to see the engine room, see what sorts of cranes or lift rails were there.
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They did have an engine for each of the two propellers, so could still move if one was down. It would be interesting to see the engine room, see what sorts of cranes or lift rails were there.
The pitching and rolling should help break loose any stuck parts. :lolb:
Gene
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They did have an engine for each of the two propellers, so could still move if one was down. It would be interesting to see the engine room, see what sorts of cranes or lift rails were there.
The pitching and rolling should help break loose any stuck parts. :lolb:
Gene
Oh yeah, a ton or two of machinery hanging in midair when a swell rolls by... :paranoia: :paranoia:
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A bunch of drilling on the mill later, and here are the stay rod brackets so far, HP on the left, IP ones with the two holes in the middle, LP on the right:
(https://i.postimg.cc/9FzHsRbD/IMG-3768.jpg)
They are all the same length at the moment just because that was the width of the bar they were cut from. The extra length will come in handy for gripping them in the vise on the next few shaping steps, they will be trimmed to final length later...
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Lot of nice gold bricks with holes in them, Chris! Nice work. I'll enjoy seeing how you get them all to the final shape :popcorn: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Kim
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Lot of nice gold bricks with holes in them, Chris! Nice work. I'll enjoy seeing how you get them all to the final shape :popcorn: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Kim
The land of misfit Legos...
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Started in this morning on shaping the stay rod brackets to the tapered I-beam shape. Set up a mill vise on the rotary base, and made he firs cut down one side.
(https://i.postimg.cc/7LLvfz3k/IMG-3769.jpg)
Each piece gets flipped over and same cut made on the other side. I counted turns on the first cut and made a note so for the rest I can just go that many turns in without stopping to measure or lay out lines. Here is a view on the end of one of them to show the web that will be left behind in the center.
(https://i.postimg.cc/3x1581D1/IMG-3770.jpg)
Once all the parts are to this stage, I'll reset for the opposite side angle/distance, then come back and clean out the field between the first cuts.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Got the first two cuts done on all 16 of the brackets, then swapped the vise over to the same angle on the opposite side and have started in on the second pair of cuts on each. The one in theis photo is one of the LP brackets, narrower and shorter than the HP bracket shown in the earlier post.
(https://i.postimg.cc/W4jXYcWb/IMG-3771.jpg)
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Still milling away on the stay rod brackets. All of them have the inside edges outlined, and have started on removing the rest of the field between the edge cuts. Still need to cut the angled sides on the outside, parallel with the inside edges, and taper them out to the end hole. I've been setting up each cut, and running all 16 pieces through before moving on to the next cut. On this one you can see the I-beam shape of the center. The end closest to the camera will be cut back to give the final length of the part.
(https://i.postimg.cc/wvSs44n2/IMG-3772.jpg)
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All the field areas milled out now, and started to taper the ends. A small vice held at an angle in the bigger mill vise makes for an easy way to hold the parts, using the base end to index each one to the edge of the vise so they go in at a reproducible position.
(https://i.postimg.cc/hGqXW7G8/IMG-3773.jpg)
I am leaving the very end of the taper uncut - that portion will be trimmed off anyway when the ends are tapered in the other direction and rounded off, and leaving that portion full width will give me a way to clamp the parts for the other tapers later on. Here is the first one, one of the LP cylinder brackets, with a piece of the rod put through the hole. Sections of that rod will be drilled for the stay rods, and silver soldered into position on the brackets. This gives a better idea of the final shapes, still several more milling operations to go.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZqFCTK9G/IMG-3774.jpg)
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Parts are looking great Chris! :cheers:
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Step by step by step ... coming along great! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
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A couple more steps, repeated over and over, and the herd of stay rod brackets is taking shape:
(https://i.postimg.cc/sX5zGSMn/IMG-3775.jpg)
Next step is to mill in the taper in the other direction, tapering to just over the diameter of the holes where the cross bars will go. Again, using a smaller vise at an angle in the bigger one. This step is why I wanted to leave the ends of the other tapers short of the end of the bracket, to give the end of the block someplace to rest on the parallel bars:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Y0kH69gt/IMG-3777.jpg)
On these taller brackets the taper angle is smaller than it will be on the shorter brackets. Each cylinder size gets a different height bracket so that the stay rods come out parallel to the centerline of the engine. After the crossbars get made and soldered in, the end of the bracket will be milled back to a round end close to the crossbar. Also, the other end, the base of the brackets, gets milled back to final height which is just below where the sides of the bracket go parallel again. Few more days of shaping on these brackets!
:cheers:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Hope the shop elves are keeping up with the 10 lb / hr swarf generation rate! :Lol: :cheers:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Hope the shop elves are keeping up with the 10 lb / hr swarf generation rate! :Lol: :cheers:
And the brackets look like the want to flap their ears and fly away!
Hmmm, they remind me of dominar rygel from Farscape!
(https://i.postimg.cc/pdzLbyft/Rygel.jpg)
Okay, too long in the shop, time for a break!! :Lol:
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they frellen do :ROFL:
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I think I met that Dominar fella at a Holiday Inn's beverage room near Georgian Bay once....but not sure.... :Lol:
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I think I met that Dominar fella at a Holiday Inn's beverage room near Georgian Bay once....but not sure.... :Lol:
He said the same about you! :lolb:
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With all the tapering done on the brackets, next up is to make the round bars that will hold the actual stay rods. Bunch of lathe time, drilling, notching ends, and parting off. Most are done, need to make the last dfew HP ones. Here is a shot of the LP/IP ones pushed into the brackets and ready for silver soldering.
(https://i.postimg.cc/0jYXFVq7/IMG-3779.jpg)
I'll probably get these soldered later today. After that is done the final shaping can be done - rounding off the ends of the brackets close around the rods, and trimming the bases to final length.
:cheers:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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They look VERY different now :ThumbsUp: - wonder was a wish about looks and how was decided from function demands ....
Will they be trimmed on the Rotary-Table for the inside towards the cylinder ?
Per :cheers:
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They look VERY different now :ThumbsUp: - wonder was a wish about looks and how was decided from function demands ....
Will they be trimmed on the Rotary-Table for the inside towards the cylinder ?
Per :cheers:
I got sidetracked on something else, so have not finished turning the last of the staay rod tubes this afternoon (amazing how that happens... Oh look - squirrel!)
The bottom ends, where they connect to the cylinders, will be trimmed back so there is around 1/16" or a bit more beyond where the sides straighten out. To mount them, I'll mill an 'I' shaped slot in the side of the cylinder for the base to fit into. To hold them there for soldering, I'll stake the corner of the slot with a fine tipped punch or scribe, so the side of the slot holds the base from falling out.
The mold making for these parts must have been interesting given the huge sizes and variety of shapes sticking out from the cylinders - From the plans it looks like they were cast in place on the cylinders, then mating faces to other parts will machined to final dimensions, the plans note where that was done. Would be a great place/time to visit when they were casting all the parts, but my WayBack machine was sent in for warranty work.. :shrug:
The original had a separate cylinder liner inside the main cylinder, the liner being machined/honed for the piston rings to seat well. I am combining the two, no need for the separate liner in the model, and it would require a lot more material (or finding just the right size pipe/tube or IC engine liner off the shelf).
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Turned up the last of the crossbars, and just finished silver soldering them all in. Took longer to spread flux on all the seams than it did to solder them. Cooling now, then they'll get strung on some wire and go for a bath in the Sparex pickle solution. Pictures later today after they are cleaned up. I used the Hard grade silver solder for these joints, will use the Easy grade when soldering them to the cylinders to minimize chance of things moving on these first parts. I was very pleased with how the solder wicked around the edges, put the solder wire at one spot, and could watch it go right around and through all the joints, showed on the far side. I had fluxed both sides of all the joints to ensure good penetration, and it worked great. This was with the Harris Black flux, gives a longer working time than the old White version.
:cheers:
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Chris- do you heat the Sparex pickle solution, or just room temp?
Thanks, Sid
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Chris- do you heat the Sparex pickle solution, or just room temp?
Thanks, Sid
I just use it at room temperature. If you heat it it works faster, but I'm not usually in a hurry. When I took a copper-forming class at the local welding shop, which has classes for all sorts of things from jewelry to glass to blacksmithing, they had it in a crock-pot at a moderate temperature, which worked great since we were on a limited timeframe. Just using a container of vinegar works too, but it takes a lot longer. Some people use a harsher acid since its quick, but then you are handling much more dangerous stuff. The Sparex is a nice middle ground, still don't want it in your eyes, but it won't burn through you like a horror-movie alien monster either. I usually leave parts in for 1/2 hour or an hour, then rinse and wire brush them off. If there was any stubborn flux or soot spots, another session does it.
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After their swim in the Sparex and a quick rinse/brushing, the parts all huddled together on the bench - guess the rinse was cold! :Lol:
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZY663Lym/IMG-3780.jpg)
I'm not concerned about the color diffs from the flux since these will all be painted, so I didn't get too carried away with brushing or scrubbing the surfaces. All the joints had flowed great, no thin spots or holes, so on to the next round of shaping - the tapered ends get rounded over above the cross bars. Set up a quick holding jig on the rotary table, with a screw in the center of the table to hold the parts through the crossbar, and a hold down clamp at the other end - this is why I wanted to round the end before trimming the bases.
(https://i.postimg.cc/8PDMbrh6/IMG-3781.jpg)
The small end mill wont reach all the way across, so am doing them in two passes. I could have set up vertically, and done them in one go, but thats actually more cranking and doesnt leave as good a surface.
One bracket rounded, 15 more to go!
(https://i.postimg.cc/L5kfpHM5/IMG-3782.jpg)
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Any of the shop elves playing "army commander" with the "binoculars" yet? :Lol:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Any of the shop elves playing "army commander" with the "binoculars" yet? :Lol:
They are trying to figure out the best way to block one end to make mortars! :paranoia:
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I started to write a comment about what ammo the bores might fit, etc, but then I remembered - the shop elves read the postings. :facepalm:
yOu KnoW Ti scRAp MakIN bOY! gOt ANY cOLd ElfNsTEI nEr sTubbies yOu cOuld SeNd? :Lol:
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I started to write a comment about what ammo the bores might fit, etc, but then I remembered - the shop elves read the postings. :facepalm:
yOu KnoW Ti scRAp MakIN bOY! gOt ANY cOLd ElfNsTEI nEr sTubbies yOu cOuld SeNd? :Lol:
Looks like the elves have hacked your login. Better check your credit card charges... :Lol:
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A whole bunch of brackets all with the tops rounded off! The last batch went a lot faster, the narrower ones could be done in one pass since the end mill would reach across them. Next steps will be to trim the bottoms off to get them to final length.
(https://i.postimg.cc/WpM5GHWp/IMG-3783.jpg)
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Worked out a way to hold the brackets at the same height for each set, to trim off the bases. Using the work stop rop in the end hole to set the vertical position, and lining up the edge of the bracket with the edge of the vise. I don't way to use the very end of the rounded off portion as the vertical position, since that portion is not as consistant after some filing to smooth off the burs from milling. The key dimension is the position of the hole to the end of the base.
(https://i.postimg.cc/C5YXCTbD/IMG-3784.jpg)
After all are trimmed, I'll start cutting the shallow I-shaped slots for them to sit in for silver soldering. Here is one held about where it will go on the IP cylinder. There will be two on each side, one above the middle flange and one below.
(https://i.postimg.cc/4y5MBL10/IMG-3785.jpg)
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Still amazed by the complexity and PACE of your builds Chris :o :o :popcorn: :popcorn: Great job Terry
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Still amazed by the complexity and PACE of your builds Chris :o :o :popcorn: :popcorn: Great job Terry
Thanks Terry! Shop inside the house and retirement make it easy to go back and play in the shop for an hour or so at a time, several times a day as the mood strikes.
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Got the last of the stay rod brackets cut to height. The HP and IP ones were milled as shown, but the LP ones needed a lot more taken off. The extra made if possible to grip the bases in the mill vise on top of parallels and lop them off with a slitting saw. Very quick and clean.
(https://i.postimg.cc/wT5bzTSd/IMG-3786.jpg)
Here are the regiments of brackets, LP ones in the front, HP on the back right side, IP on the back left side - the IP ones are easy to keep track of since they have the double crossbars.
(https://i.postimg.cc/FH9CHX4k/IMG-3787.jpg)
I had been thinking that the next step would be to mill in the slots for them to sit in, but in looking at the plans I realized that I ought to prep the vertical support blocks that sit on top of the crosshead guides first. They will also need to have flats/slots milled onto the cylinders, and it will save bolting/unbolting the cylinders to the faceplate a few times to do both types of slots at the same time, which will also ensure that they are at the proper 90 degrees from each other. So, those support blocks are up next. Only four needed, one per cylinder, though they are different depths since the cylinder OD's vary. The base shapes/mounting holes will all be the same, as will the heights of each. Here is the screen capture from the CAD model again to show them - they are the rectangular vertical blocks in the lower right of the cylinder:
(https://i.postimg.cc/xTXbznpL/IP-Cylinder-1.jpg)
Another thing I had forgotten was that the lower stay rod bracket on that side 'grows' out of the top of the rectangular block, another reason to do these blocks next. I'll have to modify the base of four of the brackets for this feature. These cylinders are the most complex I've ever done!
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Looks like Mrs. Lotta Partz designed the lower brackets maybe! :Lol:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Looks like Mrs. Lotta Partz designed the lower brackets maybe! :Lol:
My assembly bench space is over-run with parts at the moment, bits and pieces and plan sheets for four cylinders all over. Got to have a talk with Lotta! :Lol:
Still a bunch to make before getting things assembled so that I can even bore the cylinders. Front/rear cylinder supports, piston rod glands, passages for the HP cylinders, etc. Going to need to put out some shop gnome traps to make sure they dont wander off with any of the parts before they get installed...
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The HP cylinder mount column parts came together pretty quickly. The main column was milled out of a 1x1 square bar, and added a thin plate at the bottom for the mounting bolts plus a set of gusset fins at the back from another small bar. The bottom of the cylinder will be at the level of the step in the column at the lower left side. Still need to drill for some temporary screws, and get the three parts silver soldered together.
(https://i.postimg.cc/7h3xkJv2/IMG-3788.jpg)
The other three columns will be made from a narrower bar plus the bottom plate, they are narrower front to back since the cylinders are larger diameter., but they will get a similar overall shape. The HP column needed the step out to reach to the smaller cylinder. You can see the blanks for the other three in the background of the first picture.
Here are the HP parts set on top of the crosshead guide column where they will go:
(https://i.postimg.cc/QN1N5wBd/IMG-3789.jpg)
I'm going to make up the parts for the other three, then will solder them up.
:cheers:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Stu Pervisor has that look that seems to say "it's not big enough for me to hide and nap in, and too big for me to sit on...." :Lol:
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Got the IP support block shaped. Very similar overall to the HP one, but the second block is in a different place.
(https://i.postimg.cc/y8Yf4D23/IMG-3790.jpg)
The green arrows show where the seam is between the tall and short blocks. On the HP one on the right, the angled gussets are a separate piece. On the IP one on the left, the second block is on the left, and extends under the cylinder where the HP one has the overhang to reach the cylinder. Also, the vertcial rib on the IP one is farther back to still be on the outside of the cylinder. On the two LP supports, things will look a lot like the IP parts, except the rib shown by the red arrow won't be there since the cylinder extends even farther out. Lots to keep track of! I am doing one cylinder at a time to keep the different dimensions all straight (I hope).
The surface of these blocks that will mate to the cylinder, on the left in both photos, will be fine tuned on final assembly, I may need to mill those faces back just a little to get the cylinder to center over the crosshead centers.
So, two more sets of parts to make, then I'll drill holes for some temporary screws to hold the pieces together, and also will drill the holes in the bottom thin plates for the bolts that will hold them to the crosshead guide tops.
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I've been out on the road for several days and you've made huge progress, Chris! These cylinders are a massive undertaking in themselves! All those shapes, bits and bobs, and such. A very complex set of parts!
They look amazing, Chris!
Kim
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I've been out on the road for several days and you've made huge progress, Chris! These cylinders are a massive undertaking in themselves! All those shapes, bits and bobs, and such. A very complex set of parts!
They look amazing, Chris!
Kim
Thanks Kim! I've resorted to the old How To Eat An Elephant mode - one bite at a time! When they finally get far enough along to set on the rest of the engine its going to be a huge appearance change all at once.
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Another morning in the shop, another couple parts made. Got the to LP support columns shaped. Next up is to run in some temporary screws to hold them all for silver soldering. Then will start shaping the thin base plates and getting the mounting holes in those drilled.
(https://i.postimg.cc/VLcXr4PP/IMG-3791.jpg)
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Got the parts all screwed together, and ready to solder. But, its mid-90s and very humid this afternoon, so I'll do the soldering tomorrow morning.
(https://i.postimg.cc/7ZNW5fCw/IMG-3792.jpg)
Rocky the Elf is inspecting my work. An elf of few words, so I have to assume he approves! The elves are happier this afternoon, they sent Stu Pervisor off to the store to buy some spark plugs for the steam engine! :lolb: Should keep him occupied for a few days... :Jester:
Reminds me of a story from a friend of mine, an avid woodworker. His wife asked him what he wanted for his birthday, he mentioned some Sarengeti Drivers would be great. She made trips out to the local woodworking shops, called some of the tool suppliers. Some didn't know what they were, one told her that they were fresh out of them. She wound up getting him something else, and told him the problems finding any. After he got back up on the chair he told her that they were a brand of sunglasses, not screwdrivers! :ROFL: She knocked him back off the chair! :slap:
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:Lol: :cheers:
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As usual with me, had a late night idea (finally) on how to make and anchor the angled supports on the side of the cylinders, the ones that go out to the pairs of round columns. More on that idea soon. Seems to be a pattern, over the years when working for a living, problems would perk away at the back of the brain and solutions come leaking out while relaxing, watching a movie, reading, whatever. Learned early on to write them down or the next morning the details fade away!
If you look back at the CAD pictures, those angled supports were cast as round tubes with an X shaped rib down the center, and holes to give access for the end bolts and to lighten it. Went through lots of thoughts on how to make them and have things line up, none of the ideas were really good enough, finally went back to more pieces with end brackets that make it simple.
Hope that. My notes and sketches I made still make sense in the morning... :shrug:
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Got the mounting blocks soldered up and they are outside cooling off, then will go for a swim in the pickle solution. In the meantime, here is a shot of all the cylinder parts so far, with the shop elves playing Dragon On The Pile Of Gold!
(https://i.postimg.cc/vBYrkWfk/IMG-3793.jpg)
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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While the mounting columns are in the pickle solution, I made up the brackets for the angled mounts on the other side that I was talking about last night. Simple U shapes milled from square, with a pair of cross holes. These will be soldered to flats I'll mill on the side of the columns:
(https://i.postimg.cc/sgCwKGHd/IMG-3794.jpg)
Then flat supports will be cut to fit and bolt onto these brackets, with extensions that go vertical at the ends. Tubes will fit over these to complete the look.
(https://i.postimg.cc/9QP1kXs4/IMG-3796.jpg)
This is what it needs to look like. The other larger cylinders are basically the same, but due to the larger diameters the angled portion is shorter and starts lower.
(https://i.postimg.cc/76hVb3h7/HP-Cylinder.jpg)
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Spent some time after lunch getting things marked out on the HP cylinder - triple checking that I had things right way up and arranged properly around the perimeter. The HP cylinder does not have the attached steam chest like the others, rather the valve body is hung off the side on wide/flat pipes. The connections need to be milled flat, as well as corresponding flats on the caps. Also flats for the angled leg brackets and the vertcial mount column, plus the slots for the stay rod brackets. :insane:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Y91b51nw/IMG-3798.jpg)
With the cylinder bolted to the faceplate and set up on the vertical rotary table, things are ready for milling. Going to start that tomorrow, want to start fresh to keep track of all the dimensions/angles/locations correctly. For the mounting column connections, I'll need to reverse the part on the faceplate so I can mill through the flange on that end.
(https://i.postimg.cc/qRf1DmGL/IMG-3797.jpg)
Things are really going to come together in the next couple days! :cheers:
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This morning I got a start on milling all the flats/recesses into the side of the HP cylinder. All of them were laid out and locations marked yesterday on the bench, to ensure that I got the right orientation and placements for them all. Started with the cylinder held top-end-out on the faceplate, and milled in the recess for the steam pipe and flange from the valve body.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Rh5dR9td/IMG-3799.jpg)
The bolting flange needs to be extended so it surrounds the pipe from the valve body, which will be vertical by the time it reaches the cylinder, and will be continued by the overhang on the cap. So, to solder on some more material for the flange extension, a couple of holes were drilled/tapped on the sides.
(https://i.postimg.cc/nLW0Xqc6/IMG-3800.jpg)
Then bolted on the cap, so the matching flats could be milled into it in the proper orientation.
(https://i.postimg.cc/CL47j3xC/IMG-3801.jpg)
The mounting base recess needs to extend through the base, so the cylinder was turned end for end on the faceplate. To line up the faces and find the new zero point on the handwheel, used a small square:
(https://i.postimg.cc/jSdXvMDp/IMG-3802.jpg)
Using that position as the base rotation angle, the cylinder was turned to put the base column position at the top, and the flat was milled in there. The bulk of the material was taken out with a larger end mill, then switched to a 1/8" one to finish up and get into the corners.
(https://i.postimg.cc/d1TnrDhD/IMG-3803.jpg)
Here is the column test fit in the recess - nice fit. The top corners of the column had to be filed a bit to let them fit into the round inside corner left by the end mill. I also drilled for a single temporary screw to hold the column from moving during soldering.
(https://i.postimg.cc/WbVSqNTb/IMG-3805.jpg)
Next turned the cylinder to put the first bracket for the angled round supports up top, and milled in a shallow recess for it.
(https://i.postimg.cc/FzyZCqg4/IMG-3806.jpg)
test fit:
(https://i.postimg.cc/1RwJznxj/IMG-3807.jpg)
then clamped it and drilled for a screw there as well - during soldering the cylinder will be turned to put each piece in a good position, and I dont want anything slipping off.
Got the second bracket recess done the same way, and next will be the slots to hold the stay rod brackets. Four of those to do - will start them next time. Here is one of those brackets set where it will be - there are two on either side of the cylinder, one above and one below the center rib. A very productive session!
(https://i.postimg.cc/cJvcG6MT/IMG-3809.jpg)
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Thanks CNR!
This afternoon got started on the stay rod bracket mounting slots. Measured one up and came up with the number turns back and forth, and followed that recipe to cut them. Just had to round the corners of the brackets to fit in the rounded inside corners left by the end mill. Here is the first slot set cut:
(https://i.postimg.cc/zvGQWqYQ/IMG-3814.jpg)
with the bracket snapped down into it:
(https://i.postimg.cc/QCYyJvXd/IMG-3815.jpg)
And the second one on that side...
(https://i.postimg.cc/QNfwDKpZ/IMG-3817.jpg)
For the other side of the cylinder, I was able to cut the slot for the upper bracket, but the lower bracket sticks out of the big vertical post. Before I know how deep to make the slots in the post, the post needs to be taken to final depth. It was left thick up till now, to leave room to trim it to make the cylinder line up with the piston rod hole in the crosshead. I COULD take the measurement from the plans, but given that there are hundreds of parts making up the frame and supports, it seems more reasonable to take an actual measurement in place - just too many tolerances that could stack up and put the distance off slightly from the plans.
Here is a picture of the cylinder and the post bolted together - Elfric is helpfully pointing out the vertical joint between the parts in question. The thickness of the post, on the right, needs to be trimmed back to make the center of the cylinder line up properly. So, I'll make a short rod that fits into the top of the crosshead, bolt the post to the main column, and measure how far off it is from the hole in the bottom cap when bolted to the cylinder - that will tell me how much to take the face of the post back to make it all line up. When I drilled the holes in the base plate on the post, I made them a loose fit on the bolts so there would be a little play to do final assembly alignment and make it all run smooth. It will be interesting to see how far off things are from the plan, after all the subassembly tolerances stack up in the columns, engine beds, crosshead guides, etc. One of those places where the plans sometimes note 'size to suit'!
(https://i.postimg.cc/sD18gfcQ/IMG-3818.jpg)
:cheers: :cheers:
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You are the man Dog that’s looking great. Time for some sweat soldering on that cylinder port face or are you going to bolt it in place? Some more outstanding work Chris….. :Love:
:cheers:
Don
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That's a lot of carefully placed little notches and cubbies there. That's going to look very cool when you get it all soldered together! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :ThumbsUp:
Kim
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You are the man Dog that’s looking great. Time for some sweat soldering on that cylinder port face or are you going to bolt it in place? Some more outstanding work Chris….. :Love:
:cheers:
Don
Thanks Don!
On the HP cylinder the valve body is a separate cylinder, it has a piston valve that hangs frkm the top and bottom pipes. The pipes bolt to the caps, the flat I milled was just clearance for the pipe.
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That's a lot of carefully placed little notches and cubbies there. That's going to look very cool when you get it all soldered together! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :ThumbsUp:
Kim
Sure is a lot to keep track of! I'm looking forward to seeing it all together,!
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Hi
That is a very impressive fabrication watching your process .the original casting must have been very impressive too.
following your machining is very impressive too.
John
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Thanks CNR!
This afternoon got started on the stay rod bracket mounting slots. Measured one up and came up with the number turns back and forth, and followed that recipe to cut them. Just had to round the corners of the brackets to fit in the rounded inside corners left by the end mill. Here is the first slot set cut:
(https://i.postimg.cc/zvGQWqYQ/IMG-3814.jpg)
with the bracket snapped down into it:
(https://i.postimg.cc/QCYyJvXd/IMG-3815.jpg)
And the second one on that side...
(https://i.postimg.cc/QNfwDKpZ/IMG-3817.jpg)
For the other side of the cylinder, I was able to cut the slot for the upper bracket, but the lower bracket sticks out of the big vertical post. Before I know how deep to make the slots in the post, the post needs to be taken to final depth. It was left thick up till now, to leave room to trim it to make the cylinder line up with the piston rod hole in the crosshead. I COULD take the measurement from the plans, but given that there are hundreds of parts making up the frame and supports, it seems more reasonable to take an actual measurement in place - just too many tolerances that could stack up and put the distance off slightly from the plans.
Here is a picture of the cylinder and the post bolted together - Elfric is helpfully pointing out the vertical joint between the parts in question. The thickness of the post, on the right, needs to be trimmed back to make the center of the cylinder line up properly. So, I'll make a short rod that fits into the top of the crosshead, bolt the post to the main column, and measure how far off it is from the hole in the bottom cap when bolted to the cylinder - that will tell me how much to take the face of the post back to make it all line up. When I drilled the holes in the base plate on the post, I made them a loose fit on the bolts so there would be a little play to do final assembly alignment and make it all run smooth. It will be interesting to see how far off things are from the plan, after all the subassembly tolerances stack up in the columns, engine beds, crosshead guides, etc. One of those places where the plans sometimes note 'size to suit'!
(https://i.postimg.cc/sD18gfcQ/IMG-3818.jpg)
:cheers: :cheers:
Just wondering if you sleep much?..... :o
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Hi
That is a very impressive fabrication watching your process .the original casting must have been very impressive too.
following your machining is very impressive too.
John
Thanks John! Great to have you following on.
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Thanks CNR!
This afternoon got started on the stay rod bracket mounting slots. Measured one up and came up with the number turns back and forth, and followed that recipe to cut them. Just had to round the corners of the brackets to fit in the rounded inside corners left by the end mill. Here is the first slot set cut:
(https://i.postimg.cc/zvGQWqYQ/IMG-3814.jpg)
with the bracket snapped down into it:
(https://i.postimg.cc/QCYyJvXd/IMG-3815.jpg)
And the second one on that side...
(https://i.postimg.cc/QNfwDKpZ/IMG-3817.jpg)
For the other side of the cylinder, I was able to cut the slot for the upper bracket, but the lower bracket sticks out of the big vertical post. Before I know how deep to make the slots in the post, the post needs to be taken to final depth. It was left thick up till now, to leave room to trim it to make the cylinder line up with the piston rod hole in the crosshead. I COULD take the measurement from the plans, but given that there are hundreds of parts making up the frame and supports, it seems more reasonable to take an actual measurement in place - just too many tolerances that could stack up and put the distance off slightly from the plans.
Here is a picture of the cylinder and the post bolted together - Elfric is helpfully pointing out the vertical joint between the parts in question. The thickness of the post, on the right, needs to be trimmed back to make the center of the cylinder line up properly. So, I'll make a short rod that fits into the top of the crosshead, bolt the post to the main column, and measure how far off it is from the hole in the bottom cap when bolted to the cylinder - that will tell me how much to take the face of the post back to make it all line up. When I drilled the holes in the base plate on the post, I made them a loose fit on the bolts so there would be a little play to do final assembly alignment and make it all run smooth. It will be interesting to see how far off things are from the plan, after all the subassembly tolerances stack up in the columns, engine beds, crosshead guides, etc. One of those places where the plans sometimes note 'size to suit'!
(https://i.postimg.cc/sD18gfcQ/IMG-3818.jpg)
:cheers: :cheers:
Just wondering if you sleep much?..... :o
Yup! Full nights sleep plus naps out on the porch in nice weather. Usually get a total of about 3 hours shop play time a day in a couple sessions during the day. Quick easy machining is a lot of why I love brass so much!
:cheers:
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Bouncing around on a number of the little parts on the HP cylinder. Started out with getting the support column taken back to depth. To measure how far to trim it back, I made this little gauge pin. One end fits the crosshead, the other fits the hole in the bottom cap where the piston rod gland will go.
(https://i.postimg.cc/bNXBPZgm/IMG-3820.jpg)
It was inserted into the crosshead and the bottom of the cylinder cap, and the crank turned so the cylinder could sit flat on the support column. Clamped it either side, and ran the crank back and forth a bit to ensure that the gauge was sliding free in the cap hole. Then measured from the back of the support column to the back of the crosshead guide column, that was the distance to trim off. Did the trimming and bolted the column to the cylinder, bolted the columns together, and re-ran the test. The gauge still slides free, so I am taking that as a win!
(https://i.postimg.cc/63ymWRFm/IMG-3819.jpg)
Moving on to the steam pipes that will go over to the valve body, starting with the bottom one. Laid out and milled the opening in the bottom cap for the steam to go through, and drilled a couple holes to screw on the pipe for silver soldering.
(https://i.postimg.cc/yxRp9K1h/IMG-3822.jpg)
The pipe itself is being made from a piece of flat stock, since the pipes are not round but flat with rounded ends. Drilled/milled the passage through the length of the piece, and another shallow opening to match up with what was done on the cap.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ydtrkxHY/IMG-3825.jpg)
The pipe still needs to be trimmed/rounded on the corners. It will be temporarily screwed to the bottom cap for silver soldering (got some major soldering sessions coming up!)
After that will be adding the extensions to the flanges at the top of the cylinder and also to the upper cap, for the upper pipe. The upper pipe will come across from the valve body, turn 90 degrees upwards, and go through the flange to meet another hollow block to be attached to the cap.
(https://i.postimg.cc/QNKyvQQB/IMG-3823.jpg)
Going to call that a morning and head outside! :cheers:
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This mornings play time in the shop has yielded the first couple parts for the top cap extension. The cap had already been taken back on one side to match the flat on the cylinder the other day. The passage through the cap was milled in:
(https://i.postimg.cc/NFx1V8cn/IMG-3826.jpg)
and the extension nibbled out of a rectangular bar, lots of swapping it around in the mill vise for each side, and the passage milled through from two faces. The steam will come out horizontally from the valve body through a pipe (to be made), the pipe turns vertical up the side of the cylinder, and meets the extension. Inside the extension, the passage goes up and turns horizontal again, through the cap, and into the top of the cylinder space.
(https://i.postimg.cc/jq6QLT7h/IMG-3827.jpg)
The top of the extension was rounded over on the belt sander...
(https://i.postimg.cc/YqpNFPNB/IMG-3828.jpg)
and bolts to the side of the cap. Here is where it will sit on the cylinder
(https://i.postimg.cc/XYqwHyD2/IMG-3831.jpg)
This shot shows the passage where it comes from the pipe and loops around into the cylinder. Unlike most of our engine builds, the passage does not go through the cylinder walls.
(https://i.postimg.cc/FsDyVxGd/IMG-3830.jpg)
Next up will be to make the extension for the flange on the side of the cylinder...
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That's pretty fascinating steam routing on this engine! It looks very cool, but it will also be a lot of work to get it there! :popcorn: :ThumbsUp:
Kim
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That's pretty fascinating steam routing on this engine! It looks very cool, but it will also be a lot of work to get it there! :popcorn: :ThumbsUp:
Kim
Yeah, lots of extra bits and pieces, but I can see why they did it. Lots more volume faster through the larger pipes, these big pistons would be hungry for steam when running at full speed. The HP cylinder had a 35.5" bore, 48 stroke, full speed of 125 RPM. Quick calculation shows 47510 cubic inches of swept volume on the HP cylinder every 2 seconds with boiler pressure of 250psi. Yikes!
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Well, looks like tomorrow is finally going to be a Soldering Day! :whoohoo: The parts for the HP cylinder and caps are ready to go. Last up was the flange extension for the top of the cylinder. I used the holes in the cap as drilling guides to ensure they all lined up with the extension on the cap:
(https://i.postimg.cc/kgQX37Yk/IMG-3832.jpg)
Here is where the pipe from the valve body will connect in later on. In the original engine, the plans have cutaways that show that the cylinder body, all the brackets and mounts, and the shell for the valve body plus its pipes were all one massive casting. For the model I am going to solder the pipes into the valve body, but keep the connection at the cylinder with screws.
(https://i.postimg.cc/FKhFhw21/IMG-3833.jpg)
Couple shots of the HP cylinder and all its add-on parts. The brackets for the stay rods are in their slots and I staked around the edge with a fine punch to hold them in place for soldering. The other brackets have temporary screws. Don't know if I can do the cylinder in one heat or if it will take two - will need to turn it over to get the seams on the second side.
(https://i.postimg.cc/1tt9qwRQ/IMG-3834.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/s2Kjxwrm/IMG-3835.jpg)
Tune in tomorrow and hopefully it will be soldered up! :cheers:
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I think there is still a lot of soldering work to do on it. The parts are very complex.
Michael
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I think there is still a lot of soldering work to do on it. The parts are very complex.
Michael
A lot more machining too, after soldering the cylinder needs to be bored out to final size and the opening for the piston gland needs to be trimmed and mount holes drilled. This is just the first of four cylinders. The HP valve body is still to be made as well, its a very large spool/piston valve.
One thing the plans dont show are the drain valves on the cylinders. At this scale it would be difficult to make functional scale ones.
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Even as a dummy, the many valves would be very elaborate to produce. And then the pipes have to be laid. I wouldn't replicate them.
Michael
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Even as a dummy, the many valves would be very elaborate to produce. And then the pipes have to be laid. I wouldn't replicate them.
Michael
Good point about the drain pipes, they would be tiny! Sold, no drains, I'm only going to be running on air anyway..
:cheers:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: How many shop elves DOES it take to solder up a big cylinder? (enquiring minds want to know) :Lol:
The USB ports steam passages and manifolds look great. On the real thing, that was a massive amount of steam that had to be moved every stroke.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: How many shop elves DOES it take to solder up a big cylinder? (enquiring minds want to know) :Lol:
The USB ports steam passages and manifolds look great. On the real thing, that was a massive amount of steam that had to be moved every stroke.
Hopefully one big furry shop elf will be enough! :Lol:
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Looks like success on the silver soldering, was able to do the joints in all the parts in one session. The brass doesn't conduct heat as fast as copper does, so I was able to work on one side then roll it over (with big channel lock pliers) to do the other side before the flux burned off. I had gotten out the second biggest torch nozzle, it still took a while to heat up the mass of the cylinder. For the IP cylinder I may break out the biggest one, that I normally use on boilers. The cylinder and the top cap are outside still, cooling off. Once cool enough to handle I'll give them a swim in the bucket-o-sparex to clean them off. Pictures after that!!
:cheers:
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After letting the parts cool outside (had to sit there in one of the porch rockers reading to guard them... O:-) ) I brought them inside and gave them a quick wire brushing under running water to flake off the worst of the scale and soot. Close inspection shows great penetration of the solder through the joints, I was most concerned of good flow through around the extension flanges so there would be no pressure leaks there. All looks great, so into the pickle solution they have gone for a good soak. Here were the parts before starting the soak. One of the shop elves put n his fire suit just to make sure things were cool...
(https://i.postimg.cc/K8PzFMD5/IMG-3836.jpg)
More pictures this afternoon after they are clean. There will be a few spots to add some JB Weld to smooth things out, most notably the two holes in the top of the extension on the cap. Those holes were very carefully laid out, meticulously measured, detail drilled, in exactly the wrong part! The holes were intended to be in the extension flange on the cylinder, NOT on the cap. Oh well, nothing the paint won't hide! If thats the worst boo-boo, I'm very happy.
Tomorrow I can get the cylinder mounted back on the faceplate to turn the bore! :whoohoo:
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only three more to go!!!! looks great (will look great) :cheers:
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Thanks Kim!
The parts look a bit better after a soak, the elves seem to approve. Or maybe looking to see how many thimble-barrels of beer they can store...
(https://i.postimg.cc/2SXNvjGZ/IMG-3837.jpg)
Now I can get the heads of the temporary screws ground off, and start the boring on the inside of the cylinder. Right now though, off to lunch!
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The cylinder looks great, Chris! :popcorn: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Those holes were very carefully laid out, meticulously measured, detail drilled, in exactly the wrong part!
Ain't that just the case? I've make many precise mistakes, VERY carefully! :ROFL:
Kim
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Or maybe looking to see how many thimble-barrels of beer they can store...
Those cylinders are big enough the elves could use them as mash kettles to brew their own beer. No more having to hijack the Mann steam truck to make a beer run.
You'll soon know, breweries have a very distinctive smell.
Don
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The cylinders look fantastic! I would have feared that the filigree brackets for the cylinder support would be desoldered again. But everything went well.
Michael
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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The cylinders look fantastic! I would have feared that the filigree brackets for the cylinder support would be desoldered again. But everything went well.
Michael
I was worried about that too, but I used the Hard grade solder on the brackets when they were made, and the extra easy grade this time, to maximize the temperature margin. Remelting a joint seems to take more heat than the original pass too, though that may just be my own impression. I had left the temporary screws in the parts from the first pass, and the tubes were a force fit in the bracket shells. Still, it was a concern, so I had the cylinder set on the bricks so the tubes were horizontal just in case. The brass doesn't wick the heat anywhere near as fast as copper, which helped too, the area directly in the torch was the only place I saw melting, and I stopped as soon as it flowed through the joint. All in all it went very well. The other cylinders have more space between parts so they should go a little easier.
Michael, I sent you an email about the steering engine earlier today.
.
:cheers:
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Love the result so far Chris :whoohoo:
Quote from: crueby on Today at 03:50:02 PM
Those holes were very carefully laid out, meticulously measured, detail drilled, in exactly the wrong part!
Ain't that just the case? I've make many precise mistakes, VERY carefully! :ROFL:
:lolb: I don't know if I should be happy that it isn't just me .... or sorry for the rest of you :LittleDevil:
Per :cheers:
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Lots of little steps but they bring things up to a major milestone. Started out by giving the top cap a light facing cut to blend in the extension with the existing cap surface. The newer (to me) big lathe chucks I found recently came in handy again.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Ghp3jX8y/IMG-3838.jpg)
Then got the HP cylinder bored out to final size. To let the boring tool extend beyond the other end of the bore without hitting the faceplate, a piece of 3/16" plexiglass sheet was cut and drilled to fit on the faceplate, and the center was turned back to form a recess a little larger diameter than the HP bore. Later, when it comes time to bore out the IP and LP cylinders, that recess will get enlarged to fit them. All of the holes around the rim for all the cylinders were drilled in one go, using the existing faceplate holes as a guide.
I used a band clamp to hold some brass blocks in place on the outside to balance it enough to get a reasonable turning speed, did not need to be that fast given the larger diameter of the bore. The bore had been drilled out with a 2.5" hole saw a while back, so there was not all that much material to remove now.
The boring started out great, but when about .1" from the final diameter, the lathe gods started laughing at me, and I started getting a lot of chattering in the cut. Apparently the diameter of the bore, thickness of the walls, length of the cut, and overhang of the tool conspired to match the resonant frequencies of all of it, and it started to ring and chatter. Not that unexpected given the 3" long bore plus the extra inch needed in the reach to get past the support column. I tested with a couple different boring bars, playing with speeds of spindle and advance, depth of cut, all the usual games. But, could not get rid of all of it. Final changes were to stick some wheel weights on the outside of the cylinder, which helped, and then to add some weight to the boring bar itself to change its frequency, that worked fine, along with a fairly slow spindle speed, and I was able to do the final passes with a good surface. Whew! The weights on the bar were also the stick on wheel weights - didn't help a lot at first, but they sticky back tape on them is a thick foam that is squishy, so I tightly wrapped them in tape to compress the foam to get rid of that compliance, and that did the trick!
(https://i.postimg.cc/QtshKmZV/IMG-3839.jpg)
With that milestone reached, next is to finish up the bottom cap. One thing I haven't mentioned is that the protruding flange on the bottom of the cylinder up till now is not part of the final cylinder - since the original was cast with the bottom cap as part of the cylinder, it did not have a bolting flange on the bottom. I added it to give me a place to run in some large screws, 4-40, to hold it to the faceplate securely, but it is time for it to go. With the bottom cap bolted on, I went around the perimeter and drilled/tapped the final smaller (2-56) screws with close fitting holes in the cap.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sgkVsynY/IMG-3840.jpg)
This shot shows the cap held by the smaller screws - you can see how big a difference there is from the larger ones, so they should be much less noticeable on the final model.
(https://i.postimg.cc/g03G055f/IMG-3841.jpg)
In that previous photo, I was set up to start milling away the flanges. Here it is after the milling is done. The shiny surface left makes it stand out a lot visually against the darker color left after soldering/pickling, but the two surfaces are flush with each other and will blend when its all painted.
(https://i.postimg.cc/9QRW6zBX/IMG-3842.jpg)
Last step for the morning was to set up to bore the piston rod gland hole to final size - I had left it a little small to allow for trueing it up. These engines had a gland assembly that bolted in, the gland has a small flange on the outside of the cap, and the rest is up inside the cap, inside the area where the inside of the cap domes up inside the piston.
(https://i.postimg.cc/15Ym7DwY/IMG-3843.jpg)
Next step will be to make the piston rod gland, then drill/tap the mounting holes in the gland and the bottom cap.
Quite a busy morning!! :cheers:
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I would say that the cylinder alone belongs in a showcase.
He looks great. :praise2:
Michael :cheers:
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glad it all worked :whoohoo: that would be bugger if you had to sleeve it!!!!
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I agree with Micheal ... that is a work of art by itself!
:cheers: :DrinkPint:
Tom
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Thanks very much guys! Its display pedestal is all ready, disguised as the end pillar on the engine! :Lol: still a lot to go on this cylinder, the packing gland, the pipes, the valve body itself, its pipes, the valve rod gland and the valve rod guide... Going to be weeks at least till its ready for paint and its unveiling on the engine.
:cheers: :cheers:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Cylinder's looking great Chris! :cheers: Sorry to hear the resonance cropped up while boring. It can be a nasty surprise when you least expect it. Hose clamps also work great to get a solid mechanical connection when adding damping boring bars, but glad your masking tape worked.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Cylinder's looking great Chris! :cheers: Sorry to hear the resonance cropped up while boring. It can be a nasty surprise when you least expect it. Hose clamps also work great to get a solid mechanical connection when adding damping boring bars, but glad your masking tape worked.
Didn't think of that - a small hose clamp would work great, probably would still want the self-adhesive back on the weights in use to keep the clamp and weight from spinning around on the boring bar?
Got me thinking (always a dangerous thing) that maybe making a steel stiffener for the boring bar would be handy for the future cylinders. I am limited by the QCTP holders to how large a diameter boring bar I can use, but seems like it would be fairly easy to make a U shaped sleeve for the bar with small set screws that would bulk up the bar and reduce the flexing along its length... :thinking:
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Getting the stay rod brackets to line up on all 4 cylinders looks to be tricky.
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to follow this better I printed out some of the engine CAD renderings and keeping them near the computer :noidea: what about the mounts for those long angled stay rods? :stickpoke:
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to follow this better I printed out some of the engine CAD renderings and keeping them near the computer :noidea: what about the mounts for those long angled stay rods? :stickpoke:
Not made yet, I wanted to get the cylinder bolted onto the base to direct measure the angles and position. Thanks for the reminder though, those would have been easy to forget!
Getting the stay rod brackets to line up on all 4 cylinders looks to be tricky.
They aren't that hard, the heights were all measured from the actual cylinder ODs, and they are square to the pillars. Any mismatch will show though, I bet!
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The cylinder was set back up on the rotary table to mill off the temporary screw heads, mill back the last of the flange next to the vertical pillar, and also a few blobs of silver solder that had dripped down.
(https://i.postimg.cc/qR7cdzkR/IMG-3844.jpg)
Also made the piston rod gland parts, some simple turning and drilling. The gland holds a viton o-ring for a good seal. The original had the same general setup (but with different packing material) according to the cutaway view in the original plans. It doesn't specify, but I am guessing that the gland was bronze, for better wear than the cast iron of the cylinder. The Sabino engine had a similar setup, it also had an integral cylinder bottom surface so they added a smaller bolt-on gland assembly. The gland had to be notched to fit around the bottom steam passage pipe.
(https://i.postimg.cc/gJBVcmJK/IMG-3846.jpg)
Its not done yet, but couldn't resist holding it up to the engine pillar!
(https://i.postimg.cc/prhDp45M/IMG-3845.jpg)
So, whats left? As TGHS reminded me, the mounts for the angled support rods down to the engine bed, also the angled posts down to the vertical columns on that same side. The angled posts have brackets already soldered in place, still need to make the posts themselves. Um, also need to do some filler in a few places to plug up screw holes and blend a couple spots next to the brackets. Needs gaskets made, and paint. Next major subassembly will be the piston-valve body that hangs off the side of the HP cylinder.
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Love the detail of all the setups: It is inspirational 8)
Jo
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Love the detail of all the setups: It is inspirational 8)
Jo
Thanks Jo!!
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: The cylinder looks great on top of the pillar!
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: The cylinder looks great on top of the pillar!
Really starting to look like an engine with the cylinder parts going on! :cartwheel:
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Many thanks to TGHS for reminding me about the angled stay rods, they had been part of the planning early on, but its been so long that I had forgotten them with all the other brackets going on. The original plans show them with a similar shape to the horizontal brackets, but when I drew the CAD version I had simplified them down to a simpler rectangular shape on each cylinder. Given that so much else has to be assemble-able before I cound verify the exact position/angle of these brackets, that was a better choice for practicality. Though without the reminder, I may well have gotten a lot farther along with painting and asembly before I realized I had forgotten them!
So, the brackets for the angled rods on the HP cylinder are quite long, since all the rods are in the same plane and they have to be far enough out to go below/behind the LP cylinders. On those cylinders, they will likely get attached to the bottom caps. For the HP, they reach all the way up to the middle cylinder flange. I set up the big vise (well, the biggest one I have that will fit on the Sherline mill!) at an angle to mill some shallow flats and screw holes in each side of the cylinder.
(https://i.postimg.cc/NfTdDJpj/IMG-3847.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/sgrwNYN9/IMG-3848.jpg)
The bars that will go out to the stay rods were cut to rough length and drilled/milled on one end to mate with those flats. Here they are test fit on the engine, so I can mark where to drill the hole in the end for the stay rod. The rod will have threaded ends, with a nut above/below the bracket to clamp them in position.
(https://i.postimg.cc/QMNSXXsF/IMG-3849.jpg)
A wider shot, showing where the rods go through tubes in the engine bed (those tubes were built in to the beds last winter)
(https://i.postimg.cc/L83NKqdd/IMG-3850.jpg)
There is one rod on each side of each cylinder. I assume their purpose was to add a cross-brace to stiffen the whole assembly in the side to side direction, like a triangular truss shape, and the horizontal stay rods stiffen things in the fore-aft direction. These angled rods are part of the reason the corners of the crank webs are angled as much as they are, to give clearance. More kudos to the original draftsmen that worked out all these parts so nothing collided!
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Jesus Chris! That's beautiful! I'm blown away!
Dave
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Yes the Navy engines were built as light as they dared, and featured a lot of cross bracing struts. It was weight they could put back into armor.
Dave
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Thanks Dave!!
Yeah, quite a difference in the framing on this engine compared to the water pumping engines, with their massive cast frames on all sides. It's getting tough to get clear pictures with so many layers!
:cheers:
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the engine hade to be designed for the pitches and rolls of a sea going vessel,, lots of weight in motion
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the engine hade to be designed for the pitches and rolls of a sea going vessel,, lots of weight in motion
Yup the crosshead was the size and weight of a VW bug now imagine that reciprocating up and down in your drive way by 4 feet at 120 RPM.....the black gang would be wearing slickers because of the amount of oil flying around....Dave
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Wow, Chris! I'm gone for a few days (was supposed to be a week, but that's another story...) and the progress you make is incredible! Your engine is really looking great! I can't believe the amount of detail you're putting into each and every part. It looks amazing! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
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Thanks Kim! Today was a.RC submarines day so no shop progress, you have a day to catch up! :Lol: Same next weekend, no shop time for several days then either.
One of the guys in the group gave me another few copper bus bars from some electrical panels they were scrapping, 1/4" x 3/4" x 24", look brand new. I need to come up with a place to use them!
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the engine hade to be designed for the pitches and rolls of a sea going vessel,, lots of weight in motion
Yup the crosshead was the size and weight of a VW bug now imagine that reciprocating up and down in your drive way by 4 feet at 120 RPM.....the black gang would be wearing slickers because of the amount of oil flying around....Dave
Giant crossheads holding 5 foot diameter pistons on 6"+ rods, next to 5 foot on a side valve panels... above a crankshaft the length of a bus...
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WOW is all I can think of at the moment. Amazed at the speed that you are working at. I am struggling to complete simple parts. Watching as your build progresses.
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WOW is all I can think of at the moment. Amazed at the speed that you are working at. I am struggling to complete simple parts. Watching as your build progresses.
Thanks much! Lots of practice! :cheers:
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Thanks Kim! Today was a.RC submarines day so no shop progress, you have a day to catch up! :Lol: Same next weekend, no shop time for several days then either.
Have fun with the RC Subs! ;D
One of the guys in the group gave me another few copper bus bars from some electrical panels they were scrapping, 1/4" x 3/4" x 24", look brand new. I need to come up with a place to use them!
Wow! That's like giving you a bar of gold or something! That's pretty cool!
Good to have friends who have expensive scrap metal :Lol:
Kim
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Thanks Kim! Today was a.RC submarines day so no shop progress, you have a day to catch up! :Lol: Same next weekend, no shop time for several days then either.
Have fun with the RC Subs! ;D
One of the guys in the group gave me another few copper bus bars from some electrical panels they were scrapping, 1/4" x 3/4" x 24", look brand new. I need to come up with a place to use them!
Wow! That's like giving you a bar of gold or something! That's pretty cool!
Good to have friends who have expensive scrap metal :Lol:
Kim
Got five of them from him altogether, have to figure out a good use. A copper strip canoe? Roll them into rings and make really skinny boilers? :noidea:
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That's some splendid cylinder fabrication :praise2: :praise2: :wine1:
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That's some splendid cylinder fabrication :praise2: :praise2: :wine1:
Thanks Roger! :cheers: Some tense moments here and there, especially whe adding the last parts after so much work and hoping it all lines up!
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Back in the shop again, continuing on with the HP cylinder. I made up the inner rails for the support legs that angle out from the brackets on the side of the cylinder, from some thin bar stock screwed together and will silver solder them once they are done. I started with a card stock template to work out the overall shape, then cut the bars from that.
(https://i.postimg.cc/3R0bMDkF/IMG-3851.jpg)
Some small plates on the joint to join the upper and lower segments. These will be hidden once the outer tubes go on.
(https://i.postimg.cc/jqNkZP0s/IMG-3852.jpg)
Those flat rails will partly show in the finished pieces - there is an outer tube that will go over them, and the tube has access holes in them. This lightens the assembly, and gives access to the studs/nuts that would have held them to the vertical columns. To make the tubes, I am starting with some large round bar. The tricky bit is to cut one end to sit flush against the side of the cylinder, and angle the other end to form the miter to the short vertical section at the bottom. I'm starting with the curved upper angle. Here is the setup I came up with - would have been preferable to have more of the collet block in the vise, but this was the compromise that got it held the best.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZnksJK3t/IMG-3853.jpg)
One curved end milled in. I started with a shorter end mill and did as much as I could with that, then used the longer one to finish up.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sxp6xd9B/IMG-3854.jpg)
I'll get the other one to this stage, and bore out the center to fit over the flat bars, and mill the openings. Then can mark out for the cut at the other end to form the miter joint with the lower vertical segment.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Damn Dog that came out great…… :Love:
:cheers:
Don
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Wow! Quite the maneuver there, Chris! :popcorn: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Kim
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Thanks guys!
This afternoon I put in the blank for the second tube, and partway in the vise decided that it was tired, and the collet block shifted. Reset it all, and found the vise would not hold the collet block in that position. It was right where it was for the first tube, know that since I had drawn lines on the block just to detect shifts, from past experience. Tighten it up, and I could move it be hand. Weird.
So, threw that vise, the original Sherline one, back in the drawer and gout out one of the larger all steel ones I normally use. Had to realign everything and start over, now its working fine again. Enough for today, back at it tomorrow! Good excuse to try the cake that followed me home from the bakery... :LickLips:
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Those pesky homing cakes, eh? :Lol: Our grocery store bakery has velcro on the boxes I think. That's my story and I'm stickin to it. :shrug:
Just food for thought on clamping up the collet block next time - a piece of thick paper between block and jaw each side can increase the holding power greatly, especially with slippery stuff like brass and bronze. :cheers:
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Those pesky homing cakes, eh? :Lol: Our grocery store bakery has velcro on the boxes I think. That's my story and I'm stickin to it. :shrug:
Just food for thought on clamping up the collet block next time - a piece of thick paper between block and jaw each side can increase the holding power greatly, especially with slippery stuff like brass and bronze. :cheers:
This bakery does an amazing swiss mint cake. Yum! And yes, stopped off for a fresh jug of milk too. :LickLips:
Ah, I had forgotten about the paper trick. Learned it years ago for between the qctp base and the cross slide. Ths collet holder block is nice and precisely square, but its also smoothly glossy polished, and the sherline vise couldn't hang onto it well when off to the side. The bigger steel vise seems to be working with it but the paper would help when its tipped up like this is.
Thanks for the reminder!! :cheers:
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Amazing progress with all the parts soldered to the Cylinder :praise2:
And I do understand your nerves in relation to the later solder opperations - no one want's to destroy what is already accomplised ....
Per :cheers:
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Got the second angle tube curved end milled out, this time using the larger steel vise (sherline one has an aluminum body, not as rigid). Since its a little taller, I had to feed in from the front rather than from the side, but same basic setup. I did save some milling time by hacksawing off the bulk of the material this time.
(https://i.postimg.cc/gJF45V7y/IMG-3855.jpg)
Then over to the lathe to bore them out to fit over the flat rails. They look like hypodermic needles sized for a T-Rex! The shop elves have left the house till these are installed. :Lol:
(https://i.postimg.cc/gj4Dnf24/IMG-3857.jpg)
Here is one held up where it will go on the cylinder, I had to trim the corners of the brackets on the cylinder a little. Now that I know that, I'll trim the ones for the other cylinders before installing them. In the picture, I slid the flat rail in the end of the tube to show where it goes - once the tube has the lower end mitered, the bar will reach to the cylinder bracket and the miter will match the seam on the bar.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZnJHYT4C/IMG-3858.jpg)
Also bored out another piece of the round bar to make the lower tube segments. Here is one set slipped together, ready for mitering the corners. At the bottom of the lower tubes, a plug will be inserted that will form the base that sits on the vertical column and takes the bolts.
(https://i.postimg.cc/RF7Gz3rk/IMG-3860.jpg)
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wow!!! :NotWorthy:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
exhaust stacks bracket covers look great!
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I've always wondered how you're gonna do it.
It's brilliant! :cheers:
Michael
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I've always wondered how you're gonna do it.
It's brilliant! :cheers:
Michael
I was wondering too! :Lol:
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A little more done, milled the angles on the tubes and also the short sections for the lower vertical segments. Both get the same angles, half of the total between the two segments.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Xvs3Vvwz/IMG-3861.jpg)
Here are the pieces test assembled, with the flat bars on the inside holding them together:
(https://i.postimg.cc/NMLtLwDf/IMG-3863.jpg)
Before any final assembly/soldering, I need to mill the openings in the sides of the tubes to match the original ones...
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Lots of great ideas and solutions for making tricky parts going on here. Those cylinders are looking fantastic, Chris, can't wait to the the final assembly! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Thanks Ron! Still got several more weeks at least till the HP cylinder/valve assembly is done, so lots more fun to go! :cheers:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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A long session in the shop this morning, but I was getting so close to the full cylinder assembly that I had to see it through! Got the holes in the upper and lower tubes milled in, the collet block made it easy to do the four holes in the lower tubes. The tube was set in the holder with the bevel at a 45 degree angle, and then each hole was milled in, block turned 90, repeat.
(https://i.postimg.cc/YSHWXCnv/IMG-3864.jpg)
Here is the cylinder so far - measured for and made the bottom plates for each tube assembly to level the cylinder, and set it in place on the engine:
(https://i.postimg.cc/fbf01QpB/IMG-3868.jpg)
With the bottom plates on the tubes, and a screw in the center of each plate to hold it to the flat internal bars, the tubes are all held in place with no other fasteners, which makes it a LOT easier to finish off! With the screw tightened down, the plate pushes the bottom tube, which pushes the upper tube ito the cylinder wall. I will run in some soft solder on the joints to keep anything from vibrating loose later on, and do a little filing to blend in the corners on the tube miter.
I have decided that the two angled rectangular support bars for the lower angled stay rods are just too plain, and am going to add some flyig butresses between them and the rear support column to make it look more like what the original plans show. Other than that, the last things needed on the cylider are to tap the rest of the holes in the top rim (had only tapped the ones needed for the faceplate steps), and the gaskets for the caps and gland. Then, it will be on to making the valve body that hangs off the side of the cylinder. Good place for a break! This weekend we have another RC submarine event, and I need to prep for that, so the end of this week will be dedicated to boating fun.
:cheers: :cheers:
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Chris:
This question has been nagging at me for some time now. Any idea what purpose those outer tubes served on the original engine? It would seem that the inner structure would have been the actual support for the cylinders, so why the tube covers? To make them look pretty?? Or maybe to make the engine look more massive/impressive???
Don
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Chris:
This question has been nagging at me for some time now. Any idea what purpose those outer tubes served on the original engine? It would seem that the inner structure would have been the actual support for the cylinders, so why the tube covers? To make them look pretty?? Or maybe to make the engine look more massive/impressive???
Don
Well, I'm guessing since I don't know any design details other than the plans, but I think it was to add beam strength in all directions. The inner structure, the flat bar, gives radial stiffness from the center of the engine, but not much side to side stiffness. The tubes and inner structure were cast in one piece with the cylinder shell. Now, they could have used a X shaped cross section, for that. Maybe it has something to do with how cast iron strength and brittleness behaves with different shapes intersecting. I don't know. Given the huge sizes of all the parts, the weight of it all, the way it would be rolling and pitching in a ship, and the huge power of the engine, I'm sure that they wouldn't want to risk fractures anywhere. If they had modern computer stress simulation and analysis, they could likely have made it more streamlined and simple, but for late 1890s its pretty impressive!
:cheers:
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Facinating
production fabrication :ThumbsUp:
Are the last pieces going to be soldered on as well ?
Per :cheers:
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Facinating production fabrication :ThumbsUp:
Are the last pieces going to be soldered on as well ?
Per :cheers:
Hi Per,
The valve body and the pipes will be soldered up, but the ends of the pipes will bolt to the HP cylinder, one to the bottom cap, one to the upper flange extension. That will allow me to separate them for any work needed - on the original the cylinder, all the brackets/supports, plus the valve body were all one massive casting, as I am reading the plans. One amazing bit of mouldmaking and casting!
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Did some playing in Fusion this afternoon, drawing up the internals for the HP spool valve. The original used a large spool with metal rings to seal it. For the model, I could make it as one metal spool piece without the rings, but I've always struggled with getting spool valves to seal well, and frequently had to remake them. This one is a very large spool, about 1" diameter and about 1.25" long, so that would be a lot of material. Another approach would be to use o rings on the spool, but they tend to cut and wear as they cross the port openings.
So, I am planning on using the same method as I used on the reversing engine control valve a couple months ago, and use a style I worked out that puts the o rings in the valve body, with the spool tapered where it crosses them. I figured that it was an existing method, but didn't know the proper name for it. More recently I found the same design style in hydraulic valves, where they called it a 'static seal spool valve', so thats the name I'll use from now on. The spool valve operates just like the original one would, but just has a different way of forming the seals.
Here is a scree capture of what I drew up for the HP valve, it is sized to fit in the same body that the scaled down original one did. This drawing just has straight outsides and round pipes, where what I am going to build will have the same outside shapes as the original, this is just to work out the internal parts. The o rings are each in a holder with retainers that will get held by the valve body and the end caps. The retainer arrangement will allow for turning the parts with a boring tool, no special form tools. I will make the positions of the spools on the valve rod adjustable with a thread and locknut, so I can do fine tuning to the timing. In the drawing, the o rings are the red circles. This setup worked great on the reverse engine control valve, should work on this too, I hope!
(https://i.postimg.cc/jjh4Xwbj/HP-Spool-Valve-v12small.jpg)
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I knew that cylinder assembly reminded me of something:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6zNwBTLSWU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6zNwBTLSWU)
Flobadob!
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Chris:
This question has been nagging at me for some time now. Any idea what purpose those outer tubes served on the original engine? It would seem that the inner structure would have been the actual support for the cylinders, so why the tube covers? To make them look pretty?? Or maybe to make the engine look more massive/impressive???
Don
Not quite sure what you mean by tube covers? Is it the vertical round columns in the front?
Dave
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Chris:
This question has been nagging at me for some time now. Any idea what purpose those outer tubes served on the original engine? It would seem that the inner structure would have been the actual support for the cylinders, so why the tube covers? To make them look pretty?? Or maybe to make the engine look more massive/impressive???
Don
Not quite sure what you mean by tube covers? Is it the vertical round columns in the front?
Dave
The tubes are the covers for the internal bars. I think he meant the tubular shaped covers.
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I think he meant the tubular shaped covers.
That's exactly what I meant. They seem to be there just for decoration, and other than the swabbies, who's going to see a battleship engine?
Unless I'm missing something, they seem pretty useless. But then so were the fins on the old Caddies.
Don
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I think he meant the tubular shaped covers.
That's exactly what I meant. They seem to be there just for decoration, and other than the swabbies, who's going to see a battleship engine?
Unless I'm missing something, they seem pretty useless. But then so were the fins on the old Caddies.
Don
I don't think they were useless - they add beam strength in each direction, a lot more than the single flat beam would have had. I think it was designed as a thick rod that was hollowed out to save weight while keeping the strength. In my model I am making them as separate covers, but in the original engine they were one big cast piece. There is tons of mass in the cylinders, pistons, and valves, all waving around 20 feet above the engine bed as the ship pitches and rolls, all while 8000 hp is being generated by those parts. Its definitely possible that modern stress analysis/simulation could dictate lighter components there, but at the time it had to be all manual calculations with current rules of thumb. Definitely not just decorative like Caddie tailfins!
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Gotten a start on the valve parts for the HP cylinder. The CAD drawing I showed is still mostly accurate, though I've changed some of the details to make it easier to fabricate, fewer parts and am using the little form tool I made to do the o ring channels on the reverse engine control cylinder, so I need to update the CAD to match reality (later).
Did some digging on the bar stock rack and in the o-ring bins, and started work. First up was to cut two lengths of 7/8" round bar to length and drill/bore them out to a little over the OD of the 5/8" rod that I'll make the spool from. Then set up the form cutter to make the channels for the o-rings (well, first did some test cuts on some scrap bar to work out the cutting depth for a nice easy fit). The form cutter is just a few thou wider than the o-ring cross section, so only one cutting pass was needed. It was positioned inside the end of the tube, and the cross slide backed out slowly to the handwheel setting I found through trial and error on the scrap piece. The part was then turned around and the same cut made on the other end, and repeated the steps on the other valve core.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Fs1xBDZS/IMG-3869.jpg)
Here one of the o rings is in the channel for a test fit - took a little prodding with a dental pick to get it to pop into the channel.
(https://i.postimg.cc/HsKtDXZh/IMG-3870.jpg)
And a test with the bar size to be used for the valve spools
(https://i.postimg.cc/DzQQXD29/IMG-3871.jpg)
All was good, so the rest of the cuts were made as described above. Then used a boring bar to chamfer the outer edge and to open up the inside diameter either side of the o-rings, to give maximum space for air/steam to flow.
(https://i.postimg.cc/FHLV9zws/IMG-3872.jpg)
Here are the two valve cores, one with o-rings in place, one without.
(https://i.postimg.cc/q7HXg0dc/IMG-3873.jpg)
These cores will slide into the ends of the valve body, and up against shoulders. Some gasket goop will provide a seal and hold them from slipping around, while allowing for removal if really needed.
Next time in the shop I'll get started on the valve body itself. Unless I decide to make the spools first instead, not sure. Still have to spend some time getting ready for the RC boat stuff coming up this weekend...
:cheers:
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You need to.remember these were big castings not fabrications. Lots going on there structurally reaching far enough out to get the columns out of the way so the engineer could get close to the bearings.
Dave
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You need to.remember these were big castings not fabrications. Lots going on there structurally reaching far enough out to get the columns out of the way so the engineer could get close to the bearings.
Dave
Agreed! The crank webs are the same for each cylinder, and they are longer than the radius of the HP cylinder. The legs for the LP cylinders are just little stubs since those cylinders are so much wider. Even the large rectangular columns on the other side are split into 'Y' shapes at the bottom to give the webs room to rotate by, at high speed.
:cheers:
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Updated the CAD drawing to match what I'm actually building for the HP valve body. Much simpler, same basic layout. Should be good for an installment of Shop Elves Corner in the magazine someday...
(https://i.postimg.cc/0ykZCP48/HP-Spool-Valve-v13-small.jpg)
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I really like the stay bolts in the steam ports
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I really like the stay bolts in the steam ports
Yeah, thats the first time I've seen that, but given how wide those ports are on the HP valve and the high pressure they ran at, it makes sense. I wonder if they designed that in just knowing the stresses, or if they had another earlier design fail from it. I've seen external stay bolts on the edges of large pipe openings, but never one through it!
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Valve parts are looking great!
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Valve parts are looking great!
Thanks Jeff! Figured it was best to start with the cores, if they don't work out the outer shell would need to be different probably.
:cheers:
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Moving on to the HP valve body, started with a length of 1-5/8" round bar and drilled/bored through the length of it to a diameter a bit less than the final size. The outside pipes will be silver soldered on, and the final boring operations will take place after that is done. There are a number of port/pipe openings to mill into the side walls, and its possible that plus the soldering could distort the bore slightly, so best to be safe and do the final boring last. Since the only really critical bore dimensions are at the ends where the valve cores slide in, the boring can be done from either end to shorten up the overhands on the tools.
(https://i.postimg.cc/8C9hx61b/IMG-3875.jpg)
then turned the outside diameter down to the final size, and marked off where the steps will go. The OD is larger where the valve cores go, since on the original they had passages all the way around the port openings. The ends also are larger to form the flanges.
(https://i.postimg.cc/BvXThgG6/IMG-3877.jpg)
Next steps will be to turn down the areas between the passages and the flanges, then can start milling openings for the pipes - two exhaust, two to the cylinder, one steam inlet.
Got a big RC boat event this weekend, so this is likely as much shop time as I'll have till Tuesday. Thanks for following along, and stay tuned! :cheers:
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Forgot to post this earlier - for reference, here is a cutaway view of the HP cylinder and valve from the original plans. The valve spool/rod are in yellow, and are in the position to admit steam to the lower end of the cylinder. The steam inlet is just visible as the dark circle just below the top end of the valve spool, the steam comes in from the side opposite the camera, into the central chamber (its an inside-admission valve). The exhaust ports are at the top/bottom of the chamber, in the section cut away for this view, so they are not visible. The pipe flanges on the right hand side of the picture are access ports. They will be handy for timing the valve. The center of the valve spool is hollow, and the angled supports from the center post have holes in them, so the exhaust pressure can equalize between the ends. The two exhaust pipes lead to the IP steam chest, so things equalize there as well.
(https://i.postimg.cc/TYnCgGVP/HP-Cylinder-Cutaway.jpg)
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Be careful with those thumbs up emojis, in some places in Canada you just signed a contract - in triplicate.
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???
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???
Its a reference to a lawsuit involving emojis confirring agreements or not. Pretty obscure, I recall reading about it in the news a while back. :ThumbsDown:
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Yup - Chris has got it.
A broker sent a contract to a farmer and he replied with a thumbs up. Later a Saskatchewan court ruled that an emoji was just as valid as a signature and ordered the farmer to pay over $60,000 for the unfulfilled contract.
Don
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Anyway...
Sticking to the model, got a start on turning the outside of the valve body, and plotting out what order to do things on it. Nothing worth pictures yet...
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Let's try to keep topic of Chris's thread on topic ok guys
Thanks
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Back in the shop again today after being over in Indiana for our big annual RC submarine meet - great turnout, lots of subs, lots of laughs!
Got the outside of the HP valve body turned to shape on the lathe, used a small disc of brass with a hole in the center as a washer to let the live center support the outer end, the bore through the valve is a little larger than the end of the live center.
(https://i.postimg.cc/QxCqKVL3/IMG-3878.jpg)
after parting off the end it had to get approval from the elves
(https://i.postimg.cc/rpXGHJDV/IMG-3879.jpg)
Over to the mill to drill the holes for mounting thae end caps. They will also be used to hold the valve body to the faceplate for the next rounds of machining. I'd use the collets, but the valve is too large a diameter for the 5C collets I have.
(https://i.postimg.cc/YqPz6kkm/IMG-3880.jpg)
While the mill is set to that bolt circle, also got the top cap turned and drilled. Next will be the bottom cap and also the faceplate will get drilled.
(https://i.postimg.cc/13NcMT57/IMG-3881.jpg)
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Wow, Chris! Those cylinders are really starting to take shape! A LOT of work in each one of them! :o :popcorn: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Kim
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Wow, Chris! Those cylinders are really starting to take shape! A LOT of work in each one of them! :o :popcorn: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Kim
Thanks Kim! And this is the little one... :paranoia: Just three more full assemblies after this one is done. Going to be working on this engine for quite a while yet, which is a great thing!
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Got a start on all the pipes that will stick out of the HP valve body...
(https://i.postimg.cc/sxNC7RSK/IMG-3911.jpg)
Though I got distracted watching this one out in the backyard... Think its a young red tail hawk, we have lots of them around this area. Its been standing around, think its waiting for that rabbit to wander by again...
(https://i.postimg.cc/x8CSXdkc/Backyard.jpg)
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Correction - according to my bird expert friend its a young Copper Hawk, not a Red Tail. Checked both in the book, and I agree with that. :happyreader:
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If I was a shop elf or gnome, I'd be staying indoors! :Lol:
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Well, Elf-pucky!
I was laying out the outline for the upper pipe from the valve body to the cylinder, and noticed that something was not right, things are not lining up. :hammerbash: Looks like, um, the shop elves, yeah, they did it... :facepalm2: The valve body is precisely the wrong length, by 1/2". :wallbang: Need to buy the elves a new tape measure! :Jester:
Ah well, back to the band saw to cut another piece of stock and redo the valve body! Fortunately I caught it before getting too far along and starting to mill openings, silver solder parts, etc. Should only take a day to get back on track. I COULD cut the first one in half and put an extension in the middle, but I think that would take as long as to do it right.
But first, need to go out and get the lawn mowed this morning...
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Ouch! That's no fun :(
Sorry about that Chris. Luckily, I've never done ANYTHING like that before, I'm certain... ;) :embarassed: (And if you believe that, I've got some nice oceanfront property to sell you in Kansas!)
Would the valve body you've cut be useful for any of the other cylinders? Or is it just going to be fodder for the scrap bin or a nice paperweight?
Kim
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Ouch! That's no fun :(
Sorry about that Chris. Luckily, I've never done ANYTHING like that before, I'm certain... ;) :embarassed: (And if you believe that, I've got some nice oceanfront property to sell you in Kansas!)
Would the valve body you've cut be useful for any of the other cylinders? Or is it just going to be fodder for the scrap bin or a nice paperweight?
Kim
Thanks Kim,
Its not a lot of time lost, and as you wondered it could well be used for one or more other cylinders, end caps, pulleys, gears, etc since there is still a lot of wall thickness to it. It will stay on the bar stock shelf alongside the other offcuts. I still have some offcuts and cylinder cores from this project that have lots of useful material in them.
Had to wait for the lawn to dry some more before getiting out the mower to do the front/side yards, so the first end of the new valve body has been turned to outside dimensions (correct this time I hope) and the center bored out to the rough size like was done on the first one. This afternoon is looking pretty muggy so the back yard may wait till tomorrow. If so, the turning on the other end should be quick to finish off.
:cheers: :cheers:
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I COULD cut the first one in half and put an extension in the middle, but I think that would take as long as to do it right.
I think that it would niggle you if you was to do that so remaking is the only answer. I have done that in the past when making wooden models I just break the first part beyond repair that way there was no way of bodging it. Look forward once you are back on track and remade that part.
Like you my grass needs cutting but I have to walk past the workshop to get to it and I get distracted. "Left turn into the workshop OOPS forgot the grass again" :LittleDevil:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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I COULD cut the first one in half and put an extension in the middle, but I think that would take as long as to do it right.
I think that it would niggle you if you was to do that so remaking is the only answer. I have done that in the past when making wooden models I just break the first part beyond repair that way there was no way of bodging it. Look forward once you are back on track and remade that part.
Like you my grass needs cutting but I have to walk past the workshop to get to it and I get distracted. "Left turn into the workshop OOPS forgot the grass again" :LittleDevil:
Totally agree, want it done right. Just got the rest of the lawn cut, back inside to cool off. Hot or cold weather really makes me appreciate the indoor shop, back room on the ground floor.
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Well, that didn't take long - got the replacement HP valve body up to the same stage as the first one was, but this one is the right size. Next up will be to make the upper pipe over to the cylinder, which has a 90 degree turn in the middle, then will be back on the valve body to mark out where the holes go, and start drilling/milling them. All the other pipe ends are made and ready to fit into place.
(https://i.postimg.cc/DZvvtM4h/IMG-3914.jpg)
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Chris,
the new part looks good!
And it was fast.
What happened to the employee who performed the quality control?
Michael :cheers:
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Chris,
the new part looks good!
And it was fast.
What happened to the employee who performed the quality control?
Michael :cheers:
He's been demoted to pushing a broom for a few days... If it happens again its a transfer to the cattle barn down the road! :Lol:
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New one looks nice, Chris! (Equally nice to the old one, if I'm being honest :)).
Hey, could you show us the wrong one and the new one together so we can see the difference? They kinda look similar from just the pictures, if you know what I mean :Lol:
Kim
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New one looks nice, Chris! (Equally nice to the old one, if I'm being honest :) ).
Hey, could you show us the wrong one and the new one together so we can see the difference? They kinda look similar from just the pictures, if you know what I mean :Lol:
Kim
Same shape, same pattern, just longer than the first one.
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Today's part was the upper pipe connecting the top of the valve body to the top of the cylinder. Like the bottom one, its an oblong pipe, but this one has a 90 degree bend in the middle. Started with an offcut chunk of square bar and drilled a hole to form the inside corner radius
(https://i.postimg.cc/0NZtdPF7/IMG-3915.jpg)
then drilled holes from the ends that meet at that corner. Three holes were drilled, then the webs were removed later to connect them into one passage with the rotary tool.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Y99ddTBZ/IMG-3916.jpg)
The excess block in the corner was sawn out then the surfaces milled smooth
(https://i.postimg.cc/B6VMkNq6/IMG-3917.jpg)
A corner rounding end mill was used to shape the sides of the pipe. The outside of the corner was left with a ridge from the milling, that was filed off by hand.
(https://i.postimg.cc/fySBNXLv/IMG-3919.jpg)
So, here are the top and bottom connecting pipes bolted in place on the cylinder. Both are left long at this point, after the valve body has been milled to accept the ends of the pipes, the pipes will be trimmed back to final length. The pipes will be silver soldered to the valve body, and bolted to the cylinder in final assembly.
(https://i.postimg.cc/F1tGsRkX/IMG-3923.jpg)
The pile of pipe ends and valve cores ready to be fit onto the valve body, with the valve body on the faceplate in the background.
(https://i.postimg.cc/RC3BFDJg/IMG-3924.jpg)
The 90 degree pipes were made from some off the shelf copper fittings, with the rings turned/drilled from brass round bar. I made them at this point since it was easiest to drill the matching bolt holes in the rings in the same setup as the flange fittings that will be soldered to the valve.
Next time I'll start drilling/milling the openings in the valve body to take all the fittings, after that they can be soldered on. After the soldering the central bore of the valve will be opened up to the final diameters (larger at the ends to take the cores).
Thanks for following along! For those who get the Live Steam magazine, there is an article in the new issue on the steering engine that I made last year with lots of help from Michael on the plans and details of the original engine. Michael, I've mailed you a copy of the magazine too!
:cheers: :cheers:
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Thanks Chris,
I am very happy about this article in the magazine.
Will definitely take a few days until the mail steamer comes across the pond.
Thank you
Michael :cheers: :cheers:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Now the cylinder has an arm sticking out the resemblance to the Flower Pot Men is even stronger!
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Beautiful work, Chris! Love all those fittings and the copper elbow pipes! :popcorn: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Kim
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Busy time with the boring head and end mills yesterday afternoon and this morning. Here is the setup with the boring head (first drilled through starter holes in each location). The tailstock helps support the part and makes it a lot more rigid of a setup, especially when out at the end away from the rotary table. The first two holes visible facing towards the camera are the access ports for the valve passages, they get the smallest fittings with cover plates. The hole being bored in the picture is for the steam inlet pipe flange.
(https://i.postimg.cc/d05fsyMT/IMG-3926.jpg)
Closer view of the bored hole. It does not go all the way through, just partway to leave a step for the pipe flange to rest against.
(https://i.postimg.cc/XJXzpY31/IMG-3927.jpg)
Test fitted and snuck up on the diameter till the flange fit the hole, not too snug so the silver solder will wick in easily.
(https://i.postimg.cc/N0sVvxnc/IMG-3925.jpg)
Repeated the process on the opposite side and out at the end for the first exhaust pipe flange. Due to its location it overlaps the other rings, so its and interrupted cut for a lot farther than the first holes. Small increments on the boring head diameter and slow feed speed avoided any chatter.
(https://i.postimg.cc/4dMFtRxf/IMG-3928.jpg)
First exhaust flange test fit...
(https://i.postimg.cc/QdkPzz0m/IMG-3929.jpg)
Then moved up to the other end for its hole. Had to extend the cutter slightly to reach past the rotary table.
(https://i.postimg.cc/v8kpxf4r/IMG-3930.jpg)
Final holes are for the pipes to the cylinder. These need to be milled rather than bored. Started with a smaller end mill to remove the bulk of the material, then switched to a larger one to finish it out. As with the others, the recess is not all the way through, just deep enough for holding the parts for soldering. When the picture was taken I had not drilled through for the passage in the center of the recess.
(https://i.postimg.cc/15FbGXFL/IMG-3933.jpg)
And test fit of the upper pipe.
(https://i.postimg.cc/K8ywJbr4/IMG-3934.jpg)
One more opening to go, for the lower pipe. Good place to take a break! As mentioned the other day, these pipes have been left long for now, when the recesses are done I'll trim the pipes to final length, the extra length gave better grip in the vise for the milling operations on them, and the extra was determined mainly from the fact that the offcuts I was making the pieces from were already that long!
So, next time will cut the last recess, then can start trimming those two pipes to length. To hold the parts in place for soldering, I may run in some temporary brass screws, or may just stake the side of the joint with a thin punch. Will decide that when the time comes...
:cheers:
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After a good lunch, and some read-napping out on the porch, I went back into the shop and milled in the opening for the lower pipe to the cylinder. Here it is test fit:
(https://i.postimg.cc/LX1L5cYF/IMG-3935.jpg)
And with the pipes bolted back onto the cylinder, the pipes do line up with the openings (whew!)
(https://i.postimg.cc/prM8Fszh/IMG-3936.jpg)
Next step is to measure and cut the pipes back so that the valve body end fits into the arced recess in the top flange on the cylinder. Going to be triple-checking that distance before cutting!
The shop elves decided that its been long enough since the mis-measurement on the length of the first valve body (um, no) and hopped up on the parts to measure.
(https://i.postimg.cc/90P9tyYx/IMG-3937.jpg)
I think I know the problem. They must have been reading old British model building books again, I heard some muttering about 'yeah, its Five-eights of a centimeter, or is that centi-inch?' So, I'll do my own measurements, or they'll want to cut off a fraction of a furlong! :Jester:
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Hi "C" this is looking really good and some quite intricate precision work there !! So this can be achieved with bar stock !!!
Lovely work
"W"
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Hi "C" this is looking really good and some quite intricate precision work there !! So this can be achieved with bar stock !!!
Lovely work
"W"
Hi Willy! Thanks!
Yes, bar stock, and no CNC!
:cheers:
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I think the workshop elves didn't want to measure the distance.
They are planning a diving board for the pool. You have to take care. They will flood your workshop!
The cylinder keeps getting nicer. A gigantic project.
Michael
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I think the workshop elves didn't want to measure the distance.
They are planning a diving board for the pool. You have to take care. They will flood your workshop!
The cylinder keeps getting nicer. A gigantic project.
Michael
I'll have to make them some lead flippers...
:cheers:
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Like most work places to many chief's and not enough indian's. Looking good :ThumbsUp:
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Like most work places to many chief's and not enough indian's. Looking good :ThumbsUp:
Thanks!
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Another step forward, got the pipes trimmed to length so the valve body sits where it should. Here it is set in place on the engine. Doing this has convinced me to run in some temporary brass screws to hold the parts together for silver soldering, don't want to risk anything shifting during the soldering and not lining up properly. Good job for tomorrow.
(https://i.postimg.cc/bvX2M6V6/IMG-3942.jpg)
In looking at it on the engine, I was initially concerned that there would not be enough room for the linkage and guide underneath the valve for the valve rod, but in looking at the plans more I realized (again, most likely, its been a long while since drawing the CAD version) that the valve rod guide extends down below the reverse link arched bar, very different from all the other marine engines I've done. So, there is plenty of room.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Looking great Chris!
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Looking great Chris!
Thanks Jeff! Its amazing to see it in metal finally, after all the time just in CAD and on paper. Quite heavy too, the cylinder/valve assembly is 6-1/4 pounds so far, and thats without the piston/valve stem/guide yet!
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Wow! Very cool looking, Chris! And this is only one of four cylinders! :o
:ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
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Wow! Very cool looking, Chris! And this is only one of four cylinders! :o
:ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
Thanks Kim! Yup, three more to go, but at least those are more standard style ones with the rectangular steam chest and d-valves rather than the separate piston valve like this one. Just bigger!
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This morning got the temp brass screws to hold all the bits onto the valve body, here it is with one last test fit on the cylinder side before soldering:
(https://i.postimg.cc/wB2qmmjk/IMG-3944.jpg)
All nice and shiny till the silver soldering torch licked it all over:
(https://i.postimg.cc/zBfJSGLY/IMG-3945.jpg)
Looks like good solder flow all round, it was done in one heat, turning the part as needed (with long channel lock pliers) along the way. Its going to take a while to cool, then it will take a swim in the pickle solution this afternoon.
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After a bath in the pickle solution, some brushing, filing off of screw heads, and sanding, its looking much better:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Qdykr072/IMG-3946.jpg)
Amazing thing is that on the original engine, that entire cylinder/valve body assembly was all cast in one piece!
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those are some pretty big pickles :stickpoke:
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those are some pretty big pickles :stickpoke:
But they are good at math, they find solutions! :Jester:
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.... and there are how many more cylinders and their assemblies to do?
To say that is an impressive job just doesn't do it. That has to be the most amazing fabrication I have seen.
:DrinkPint: :DrinkPint: :DrinkPint:
Tom
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.... and there are how many more cylinders and their assemblies to do?
To say that is an impressive job just doesn't do it. That has to be the most amazing fabrication I have seen.
:DrinkPint: :DrinkPint: :DrinkPint:
Tom
Thanks Tom! :cheers:
Only three more cylinder assemblies, one IP and two LP cylinders. They are a bit more conventional, but the d valves are a lot bigger than normal, and are the double-ported style. Here is what the IP cylinder looks like:
(https://i.postimg.cc/3Jz0jVzV/IP_Cylinder_2.jpg)
At least the cylinder shells and end caps are made, as are the brackets for the sides and the mounting posts. Still, many months of work still to go! I am guessing that the HP cylinder will be ready to test under pressure sometime in September or October, after the pistons, valve rod, valve guide, and connection to the reverse link are made. Then I'll move on to the other three cylinders. Whole engine is most likely done sometime late winter or early spring, give or take a season.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Down to final machining steps on the valve body. Bolted it back up on the faceplate (had to mill a little recess in the plate to get it past the end pipe flanges) and bored the ends out to hold the valve cores with the o-rings.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ncM2d03Q/IMG-3947.jpg)
A view down the bore with the valve core test fit in place. The core will get held in place and sealed with some automotive gasket maker, which will seal around the sides/ends but still allow it to be pulled out if ever needed. If its no strong enough to hold in place against the valve movement, I can add a small set screw from the outside, will be able to tell after the valve spools/rod are made.
(https://i.postimg.cc/cJGcLZ0Q/IMG-3948.jpg)
The cores then had the ports in the center milled out - long one where the pipe is, smaller one where the access port is on the other side.
(https://i.postimg.cc/m2qwKCnp/IMG-3949.jpg)
The collection-o-parts for the HP cylinder so far, getting down to the final ones and the moving bits. Next up will be the valve spools and rod, the valve rod packing gland, and the valve rod guide. Then last pieces I think are the piston and piston rod, some gaskets, and final assembly on the model. Oh, and the angled stay rods down to the base, easier to assemble those at same time as putting the cylinder on. Plus some painting. Before it can actually be testing, it will also need the connections of the valve rod end to the reverse gear rails, plus the globe valve for the steam inlet. Um, and whatever else I'm forgetting! :shrug: Seems like its almost done, but the list is still long. So, for now, time to sit and admire the collection with the shop elves! Hope they left me some cookies...
(https://i.postimg.cc/Jzkq8tVr/IMG-3951.jpg)
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Quite a nice collection of parts to be sure! ;D :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
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Nice job at least by working on one at a time things should not get mixed up unless the elves start playing tricks on you looks like a meeting to see what they can get up to
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Chris, a lot of parts for just one cylinder. Very impressive.
The picture with the workshop elves reminds me of those old photos where the proud workers stand next to their products.
Greetings Michael
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A couple of the flanged 90° fittings look suspiciously like copper plumbing fittings. The elves out-sourcing some of the work now?
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A couple of the flanged 90° fittings look suspiciously like copper plumbing fittings. The elves out-sourcing some of the work now?
Those are exactly that - copper fittings with flanges added on. The elves were hung over and took a shortcut... :LittleDevil:
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Chris, a lot of parts for just one cylinder. Very impressive.
The picture with the workshop elves reminds me of those old photos where the proud workers stand next to their products.
Greetings Michael
Nice picture of your shop elves! :cheers:
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Today was valve spool day. Turned the spools from some 5/8" stainless steel, the length of the ends is longer than the travel on the eccentrics, and the gap in the middle is just over the distance between centers of the o-rings in the carriers. The diameter was turned till the o ring carrier would slide smoothly - have learned from past projects to put a drop of oil on the rings once it gets close to make them slide easier, or the stiction can make it appear that more needs to be turned off, till it goes too far and there is no seal.
One of the spools was drilled through at the diameter of the valve rod (3/16") and the other one was drilled same size halfway through and tapped 3/16-40 the rest of the way (too long to just thread all the way through). That will let me fix the lower spool to the valve rod (loctite+pin) and leave the other spool so it can be adjusted to fine-tune the center point so both spools open/close at the same time. That one will get a locknut to keep it in position once adjusted.
(https://i.postimg.cc/K849zL4B/IMG-3952.jpg)
Next step will be to make the valve rod by threading one end for the adjustment of the spool valve, and the other end will get threaded to take the reverse link fitting. I am thinking I'll wait to thread the second end till after the cylinder is on the engine so I can get a better measurement of the length down to the reverse linkage. The valve spools/rod can be removed from the valve body by removing the top cap and pushing them out the top of the valve body.
Here are the two valve bodies and spool slipped onto the valve rod blank. Stu Pervisor took one look, and started muttering about 'Spools? Thread? Why are we winding thread on valve parts? Ain't no sewin machine here... ?? ' :lolb:
(https://i.postimg.cc/3x6tDRD6/IMG-3953.jpg)
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: As long as Stu Pervisor is only looking and muttering, the project is safe! :Lol: :cheers:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: As long as Stu Pervisor is only looking and muttering, the project is safe! :Lol: :cheers:
I took away his key to the toolbox! :Lol:
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Got the valve rod top end threaded, and made up the locknut to hold the spool in place. While I was at it, I made up the first batch of heavy nuts that will be needed for the angled stay rods, those are the same diameter as the valve rod. The lower spool position on the valve rod was measured out and the lower spool was attached with some Loctite retaining compound (green), tomorrow after its all set up I'll drill for a small pin for good measure.
(https://i.postimg.cc/VvPtyJHx/IMG-3954.jpg)
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Couple more parts made, first a simple one, the packing gland for the valve rod, sealed with a viton o-ring.
(https://i.postimg.cc/x1N4n8k3/IMG-3955.jpg)
Over the top of that goes the valve rod guide. This extends down into the space between the reverse link arch rods, and keeps the valve rod from flexing as the reverse linkage is moved. I've never seen this setup before, but it makes a lot of sense, a lot like the piston rod guides on most engines. In this picture I've gotten most of the shaping done, lots of nibbling on the mill, still some trimming to do.
(https://i.postimg.cc/q7fZRryV/IMG-3956.jpg)
Here is the finished valve rod guide, set in place on the model. The sliding block on the reverse links will ride between these rails. One thing I had not spotted when doing the CAD model originally was that the ends of the guides have to be above the inside of the yoke when the valve is all the way up. Once it was set on the model, that became apparent - something to keep in mind if I use that same setup on a future model.
(https://i.postimg.cc/vmW2xKt1/IMG-3960.jpg)
The other thing done today was to put the o ring holders into the valve body with some automotive gasket maker goo, spread a thin layer on the inside of the valve body bore, a thin layer on the outside of the core, and pushed it into place, aligning the ports with the ones in the valve body. Then cleaned off the squeeze out, the goo off my fingers, all the other places it gets! I'll let that set up overnight, and check the spacing of the valve spools tomorrow.
Next up will be the piston head and rod - really getting close to final parts on the HP cylinder. The rod will be a piece of 5/16" stainless rod, shouldered and threaded at the ends to fit the piston head and the crosshead. The piston head itself will be from brass and sealed with an o-ring, as I usually do on my models. The piston head is not just a flat disc however, on this engine they have a cone-shaped center, angled to match the cylinder end cap inside faces. The 'casting' I will make the HP piston head from is the core that was cut from one of the larger cylinders with a hole saw back when the cylinders were made:
(https://i.postimg.cc/tTpS3zBB/IMG-3961.jpg)
I'll cut a length off that core, and turn the piston head from it, good use for the offcut! The piston rod blank is in the lower left of that picture.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Like the valve rod guide arrangement. :cheers:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Like the valve rod guide arrangement. :cheers:
Wish I could take credit for it, but thats from the original engine! :cheers:
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The rough sawn chunk from that cylinder core has cleaned up nicely, ready to turn to shape for the piston...
(https://i.postimg.cc/vBjd3jCQ/IMG-3962.jpg)
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That's still a mighty big hunk of brass for a piston! :o
Nice work, Chris, you're getting all these little pieces done and pretty soon, you're going to have the HP cylinder ready to go ;D :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
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That's still a mighty big hunk of brass for a piston! :o
Nice work, Chris, you're getting all these little pieces done and pretty soon, you're going to have the HP cylinder ready to go ;D :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
The finished HP piston head will be around 3/4" tall with the cone, the chunk I am starting with is larger, some of the block will be cut off after cutting the inside cone. The other three pistons will be about the same height, just much larger diameter!
Every time I think the HP cylinder assembly is ready to start timing and testing with, I remember 3 more pieces that still need to be made!
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Piston head is the part of the day. Started by turning in the cone shaped recess on the underside, and used a parting tool to make the o-ring groove on the rim.
(https://i.postimg.cc/59sCzPCK/IMG-3963.jpg)
Turned it around, and trimmed back/turned the cone shape on the top side:
(https://i.postimg.cc/wM4RdvzY/IMG-3964.jpg)
The piston head will sit on a shoulder at the top of the piston rod (yet to be made) with a large nut holding it in place. The cylinder top cap has a matching set of recesses for the cone and nut, copying what the original plans showed.
The piston moves reasonably well in the cylinder, though I want to do some more lapping on the cylinder inside wall to get rid of some more tool marks left from boring it out.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: The piston looks great! Better get the rod into it quick though, before the shop elves use it as a beer funnel or a sausage stuffer nozzle. :Lol: :cheers:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: The piston looks great! Better get the rod into it quick though, before the shop elves use it as a beer funnel or a sausage stuffer nozzle. :Lol: :cheers:
You were either looking in the shop window again or following the shop elves on their TwitElf account - they already were pouring beer through it... So, one more session in the shop this afternoon:
Just got the piston rod made, which will also make it easier to test the cylinder during the final lapping/polishing steps tomorrow. Here is my view of it:
(https://i.postimg.cc/X7y1Dy4W/IMG-3965.jpg)
And the elves-eye view:
(https://i.postimg.cc/htWZFPtd/IMG-3966.jpg)
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:ThumbsUp:… :Love:
:drinking-41:
Don
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:ThumbsUp: … :Love:
:drinking-41:
Don
Thanks Don!
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Got the HP cylinder lapped to smooth out the tool marks, working well but the ring is just a little snug, want to take another thou or so off the bottom of the groove to make it move easier, though its a delicate adjustment, take off too much and have to either make a new piston head or pack the bottom of the groove.
Did get a start on the angled stay rods, both cut to length and one is threaded:
(https://i.postimg.cc/SxjJYc6C/IMG-3971.jpg)
Backing the die off the threads makes me wish the Sherline had a reverse switch! :Lol: Here it is test fit on the engine, with the nuts in place on the lower end. Same setup at the top end behind the cylinder, a nut on either side of the beam it goes through.
(https://i.postimg.cc/0y3rYrn3/IMG-3972.jpg)
One more to thread, then I'll take another look at the piston head groove. Also have laid out the shape for the steel fitting at the end of the valve rod to connect it to the reverse links. That and the two bronze bearing strips will be the next parts. Once that is made the last things to make for the HP cylinder will be the gaskets, a box full of studs for the caps, and the pipe fittings to connect the main valve (oh yeah, need to make the valve too!) Then I'll be able to paint the cylinder, get it all bolted in place, and start fine tuning the valve timing to get the piston moving. Hmmm, that list is not getting THAT much shorter! :shrug: We've got another pond day tomorrow, need to get some batteries on charge for the subs...
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Yup, taking two thou more off the o ring groove made it run silky smooth, putting my palm over the top of the cylinder while turning the crank shows great compression in both directions. :pinkelephant:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Glad to hear you got the piston and o-ring fitting well.
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After some sketching, measuring, trying to decide how to make the thin bearing plates for the connection to the reverse links, it was apparent that I needed some thin bronze pieces to make them from, and best if they were long enough to clamp or screw hold them at the ends on the rotary table to mill in the arch shape (at 5" radius they are a very slight radius, but a radius still, and a straight cut would rock back and forth and scream "HERE I AM! HE TOOK A SHORTCUT!")
When doing just one or two, typically I would just mill some bronze round bar flat. But, spotted the offcut chunk of the large diameter cored bronze bar that I made the larger cylinders for the Ward pumping engine from. Hmmm... Perfect! Took it up to the bandsaw and took some slices off of it, couple different thicknesses to squirrel away for future needs, and trued up the thinnest slice to 1/8" thick. If I drill some holes to match holes in the tooling plate, I can bolt it down and mill in the arches before trimming them apart.
(https://i.postimg.cc/mrD4wFT4/IMG-3973.jpg)
I MAY have to make another thin one though... I've convinced the shop elves that I found this in an antique shop, that its Captain Nemo's prototype CD disc! :LittleDevil: Going to sell it to them to get back some of what they embezzle from me... :Jester: Maybe I can sell them on Ebay as Steampunk CD's. Stick on some labels like Release The Kraken by Capt. Jack And The Pirates... :lolb:
Can you tell its late in the day? :help:
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:Lol: :cheers:
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Still enjoying and trying to keep up :praise2: :praise2: :wine1:
I like the family group with the elves :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :)
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Still enjoying and trying to keep up :praise2: :praise2: :wine1:
I like the family group with the elves :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :)
Thanks guys!
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The little sliding bearing plates for the reverse linkage connections are made. Started with that bronze disc cut from the larger cored rod, clamped it to the rotary table (with an extension to reach out 5") and milled the center slot. There was enough distance in the plate to make four pieces at a time, so I'll go through this process twice to get all eight that I need.
(https://i.postimg.cc/J4RYBqGt/IMG-3974.jpg)
Another deeper cut to trim off the outside of the arc, and some cuts in towards the center to separate the pieces.
(https://i.postimg.cc/d0Z5KNSN/IMG-3975.jpg)
Holes were drilled for the pivots in the center of each piece, and then another cut made to part them off from the disc
(https://i.postimg.cc/rwPf32gt/IMG-3978.jpg)
Here are a couple of shots showing how they fit on the reverse links, at the green arrows. There will be one bearing piece on each side, with the pivot/connector piece in the center (that piece is still to be made). To assemble them I'll have to remove the spacer post at one end of the linkage and slide the bearings/pivot in from the end and replace the spacer.
(https://i.postimg.cc/520Ps25V/IMG-3979.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/MKtP0QQ5/IMG-3980.jpg)
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An excellent result!
And that's how many small parts an engine needs. You do that very well.
Michael :cheers:
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An excellent result!
And that's how many small parts an engine needs. You do that very well.
Michael :cheers:
Thanks Michael! :cheers:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Very nice Chris! Mechanism for the HP valve is looking great.
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Thanks Jeff!
One other reason to grin, just found out that the article on the Holly pumping engine will be the cover story for the November issue of Live Steam magazine. 8)
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Fantastic! :ThumbsUp: :cheers:
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Another celebrity in our midst :ThumbsUp: There'll be no talking to you guys soon. Do the elves get a raise now ... or their own dressing room?
:DrinkPint:
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Another celebrity in our midst :ThumbsUp: There'll be no talking to you guys soon. Do the elves get a raise now ... or their own dressing room?
:DrinkPint:
Maybe I can get MY dressing room back from them! :Lol:
Not the first article for me there, been a regular contributor there for about five years, this will be fifth cover shot. They are wonderful to work with, and they are always looking for articles, great way to fgund your hobby!
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Made up the center fittings that hold the end of the valve rods to the sliders with a short pin. While I was at it I made up the ones for all four cylinders since they will be the same.
(https://i.postimg.cc/pVw726hF/IMG-3983.jpg)
On test fitting the HP parts, I noticed something that I had not seen in the CAD version, the corners of the bearing sliders need to be relieved a bit to keep from hitting the guides. On the plans, there is no detail shot of these parts, just what little can be seen in the general arrangement drawing.
(https://i.postimg.cc/rF5HzNxY/IMG-3985.jpg)
With those corners filed back, sat there looking at the parts, and decided that its time for some paint! So, I've gotten the parts degreased to get all the oil off them from test fitting o rings and such, and after masking they will be off to the paint booth (fancy name for the cardboard covered old shelf unit). As with the engine bed, first will be a coat of the spray on clear lacquer then the color coats. That has worked out well for painting the brass since I was not able to find a decent primer around here.
While the painting steps are going on, I'll start making up a big batch of threaded studs for the end covers. If time during painting, I'll also start on some globe valves, need a large one for the main shutoff/throttle, and some smaller ones for the starting valves and a shutoff for the reversing engine. When the cylinder parts are back from paint I'll start making gaskets and do the final assembly. Then, hopefully, things will spin when hooked to the compressor!
:cheers: :cheers:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Hope you've got an 1100 lb plastic tote ready for the first batch of the studs production. (or did you install the conveyor to the warehouse yet?) :Lol:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Hope you've got an 1100 lb plastic tote ready for the first batch of the studs production. (or did you install the conveyor to the warehouse yet?) :Lol:
Two 500 pound totes, easier for the elves to carry! :LittleDevil: Between the four cylinders, going to need a LOT of them! I've got a good supply of small pattern 4-40 nuts and lengths of 4-40 steel threaded rod, a cut-off wheel mounted in the mini chop saw, and a fresh belt on the sander to take off the burrs. The elves are no where to be found...
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Excellent refinement of your design there Chris. :popcorn: :popcorn:
Isn't that just like the elves? When there's work to be done, they are nowhere to be found! :Lol:
Looking forward to seeing the next batch of parts painted!
Kim
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Thanks Kim!
Got the clear lacquer coat on the parts as a primer yesterday afternoon when it was warm and sunny outside so it didn't stink up the house. Letting that cure up some more before starting the gray color coats, maybe this afternoon. In the meantime, I started making up the piles of studs needed for the end covers. Making those out of some 4-40 threaded rod, cut on the little chop saw with an abrasive cutoff wheel then a quick spin against the belt sander to clean of the burrs that the wheel leaves. Got one batch of them with the nuts loctited in place at one end, so I can run them in like bolts. On a smaller engine with 8 or so, I'd fix the studs in place on the cylinder and leave the nuts loose, but with 50 or more per cap, getting the gaskets on, cap started on, etc, that way would be really tedious. So, am doing them this way instead. Here are parts of the first batch - got enough with the nuts on for the HP cylinder, going to need lots (and lots) more for the other cylinders since they are bigger plus have them around the perimeters of the steam chests, so I have been cutting down more of the rod and have accumulated enough for most if not all of those. The rest will still need cleanup on the sander and nuts added, but I can do that in batches between other things.
(https://i.postimg.cc/N0mGDfCj/IMG-3986.jpg)
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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What do you chuck those itty-bitty studs into when they go for a spin on the belt sander? I assume you're using something rather than risking life, limb, and finger-tips that close to a speeding sanding belt. Especially since the elves have conveniently disappeared when there's a rather large pile of studs to de-burr.
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What do you chuck those itty-bitty studs into when they go for a spin on the belt sander? I assume you're using something rather than risking life, limb, and finger-tips that close to a speeding sanding belt. Especially since the elves have conveniently disappeared when there's a rather large pile of studs to de-burr.
Nope, I am just using the fingertips to spin the studs. They are a little under 1/2" long, so not much sticking out, but all it needs is a light quick touch to chamfer the ends of the thread where the cutting wheel left it. Quick spin as I touch it to the belt is all it needs, and I have the studs angled so the tip is away from the direction of the belt, so it can't catch and flip. Doing this up in the middle of the 1" wide belt, away from the table and any pinch hazard in the little gap at the table.
Lets see, the lawyer elves said to read this (before I flushed the lawyer elves down the drain to get rid of them) - "Professional hobbyist in a closed shop, don't attempt any of the silly but productive stuff he does, your milage may vary, see your doctor before stopping work on the model..." :Jester: :lolb:
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Wow, what a difference a few spritzs of paint makes!
(https://i.postimg.cc/3wTHZMyX/IMG-3987.jpg)
Going to let the parts set up overnight to let the paint cure before getting started on gaskets and final (hopefully) assembly of the Hp cylinder parts.
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Looks awesome, Chris :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Good move re the lawyer shop elves! :Lol: The paint does make a big difference. Looking great! :cheers:
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Thanks guys! I'm amazed how different it looks in paint, can't wait to get it assembled and the other bits made to hook it to some compressed air, even with the one cylinder it will be great to see things move without me cranking it, great incentive to get going on the next cylinder. I'm almost tempted to do the LP cylinders next since they are set at 90 degrees to the HP, but it is probably best to take them in order. The IP cylinder is 180 from the HP, so it won't always self start till the LP ones are on.
:cheers:
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see your doctor before stopping work on the model..."
I can see why you flushed the lawyer elves. That obviously should have said "see you doctor before starting work on the model". Work stoppages aren't allowed.
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Getting very close to first run on one cylinder... This morning got gaskets made for the end caps, used the caps as drill guides and went around on the drill press with the cap over the gasket material with a piece of wood underneath - pushed in a pair of screws after the first two holes to keep it all aligned. Very quick way to make the gaskets. Centers cut out with scissors.
(https://i.postimg.cc/HkGrJD8w/IMG-3988.jpg)
Assembled all the parts, oil on all the rings, lots of things to line up on the valve and piston, and got the screws installed in all the mounting columns and nuts on the stay rods.
(https://i.postimg.cc/6pdynjCD/IMG-3989.jpg)
I haven't run all the studs in on the top caps yet, in case I need to take them off to adjust something during timing tests. I like having the little cap on top of the cylinder main cap, just a few screws to remove to open that hole for oiling, adjusting top piston rod nut, etc.
An overall view of the engine so far:
(https://i.postimg.cc/d0wDB2BD/IMG-3991.jpg)
The eccentrics have been rough timed and the valve rod length adjusted for initial tests, should be close. So, to add compressed air I need to make the main globe valve and a connection from that to tubing to the compressor. Should be in business within a day or two!
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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The first momentous run of the engine is coming right up! Looking forward to seeing it ;D :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Go, Chris, Go!
Kim
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This part of the engine alone looks very good 👍.
I'm also looking forward to the first rotation.
Michael
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:ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Anxiously waiting
Cheers
Rich
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Looks Great (and it's taller than the Drill-Press in the bacground :o )
Should be very intersting + satifying for you to see (and hear) first Pops :cheers:
Per :popcorn:
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Looks Great (and it's taller than the Drill-Press in the bacground :o )
Should be very intersting + satifying for you to see (and hear) first Pops :cheers:
Per :popcorn:
Not hard to be taller than a Proxxon drill press, especially when the head is lowered down for small drill bits!
Thanks all - another couple days should see some sort of running - this afternoon I started in on the globe valve, while I'm making it I figured I'd make up three, they come in handy. I'm also going to make some smaller ones for the starting valves on the other cylinders, and also one for a shutoff on the reverse engine, but those can wait till the HP cylinder is going. All the same design, just scaled down. So far on the big ones I have the side pipe flanges turned/bored, and the holes for them bored in the main blocks. Another day or so should see the valves done, they are pretty simple.
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Just looking great. I keep popping in to see the progress and looks like I will be here for a long enjoyable time seeing this build progress. Keep up the good work and don't let the elves hinder you.
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Just looking great. I keep popping in to see the progress and looks like I will be here for a long enjoyable time seeing this build progress. Keep up the good work and don't let the elves hinder you.
Thanks! Great to have you along for the ride!
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As mentioned, got a start on the globe valves, one for the main throttle, two more as spares for future needs. Started with lengths of brass rod trimmed to size, and then drilled/bored out the sides to take the pipe flange and also create the cross chamber. All of these operations are being done on all three parts before moving on to the next step, makes the spare two go fast.
(https://i.postimg.cc/L8q9tgTP/IMG-3993.jpg)
Turned up the pipe flanges for the side (these are going to be 90 degree valves, inlet on the end, outlet on the side) to fit the openings.
(https://i.postimg.cc/65b64fdw/IMG-3994.jpg)
The end of the chamber needs to be flat for the tapered valve stem end to seal against, so a quick trim inside the hole with a small end mill
(https://i.postimg.cc/jqXStb2D/IMG-3996.jpg)
Parts for one of the sets so far, you can see the chamber and the flat on the bottom
(https://i.postimg.cc/zG9J0Dtc/IMG-3997.jpg)
Back to the lathe to drill/bore/counterbore the bottom passage. This is sized to form the valve seat where it breaks through into the chamber, and a slightly larger hole out the end of the valve. i've picked the size of the valve seat so that it will be able to fit through the hole at the other end of the valve so it can all be assembled.
(https://i.postimg.cc/FsHsKBkD/IMG-3998.jpg)
Used a parting tool to form the flange at the end, then a V tool to rough shape the end of the 'globe' of the globe valve. Just judged by eye.
(https://i.postimg.cc/pdzP7N3X/IMG-4000.jpg)
Then cleaned up the curve with a file
(https://i.postimg.cc/63htWr9k/IMG-4002.jpg)
Then over to the rotary table on the mill to drill all the holes in all the flanges. Also drilled a piece of steel rod with matching clearance holes, which will do two things: be used to hold the valve bodies to turn the other ends, and also later on I can use it as a guide to set up the rotary table for drilling matching pipe flanges on future models.
(https://i.postimg.cc/xCQ9VxSG/IMG-4003.jpg)
Tapping all the flange holes. One of the valve bodies is bolted to the steel holder, ready to start shaping the other end of the parts...
(https://i.postimg.cc/Fzsm7Yz7/IMG-4004.jpg)
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Very nice Chris! :cheers:
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Nice production work on those globe valves, Chris! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn:
So, are you going to round the other end of the valve? Or are they going to be semi-globe valves? :Lol:
Kim
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Nice production work on those globe valves, Chris! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn:
So, are you going to round the other end of the valve? Or are they going to be semi-globe valves? :Lol:
Kim
Yup, working on the other end now... not full spheres, so more semi globs than globes! :Lol:
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Almost ready to set up outside and do some silver soldering on the valve and pipe parts, just some more holes to drill in pipe flanges. The other ends of the valve bodies were drilled and tapped for the stem holders,
(https://i.postimg.cc/65gC2LHZ/IMG-4007.jpg)
and made said holders by turning/threading the ends that go into the valve bodies, including a 4-40 internal thread for the valve stems, and milling a short hex section above the threads
(https://i.postimg.cc/yYkF8rTB/IMG-4009.jpg)
then holding them by the hex and turning/threading the upper end for the packing nut
(https://i.postimg.cc/Qd71p9Py/IMG-4010.jpg)
Threaded the end and turned the valve plungers,
(https://i.postimg.cc/5tqzrcf5/IMG-4011.jpg)
and turned up the handwheels, threaded to go on the stems with loctite and a lock nut,
(https://i.postimg.cc/NMsXqN03/IMG-4012.jpg)
giving a nice selection of valve parts for the shop elves to inspect
(https://i.postimg.cc/d0KdnQct/IMG-4013.jpg)
Also have made up the parts for the short pipe section between the valve and the HP cylinder valve inlet, which has a tee section to head over to the starting valves on the other cylinders. Since those are still to be made later, that tee section will be plugged for now. Still need to make a adapter for the inlet of the valve to connect to tubing to the compressor, and drill/tap the flange holes in the pipe section, then I'll get them outside to solder things up. Should be ready to do some pressure testing/timing on the cylinder tomorrow! :cartwheel:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Looks like Stu Pervisor called over the head oiler Bert McSquirt to preserve that shine on the solid gold. :Lol:
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Last of the drilling and tapping on the valve parts is done, just did the silver soldering on the flanges. Cooling now before a soak in the pickle solution, tomorrow will be able to assemble and see how close the timing is! Stay tuned...
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Looks like Stu Pervisor called over the head oiler Bert McSquirt to preserve that shine on the solid gold. :Lol:
Bert? No, his name is Earl Cann. :Lol: Just did the silver soldering, so Earl will need to get out his can of Brasso and stay up all night cleaning them again! :LittleDevil:
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Good progress this morning. Got the valves assembled, and the one needed for the main throttle installed:
(https://i.postimg.cc/RZjdtdJH/IMG-4015.jpg)
That pipe visible out the far side will connect to the starting valves for the other cylinders later on. Bit of a goof there - the pipe between the globe valve and the HP valve flange is lined up right at the globe valve end, but its off on the HP valve end, making the globe valve tilt. Looks like I didn't check closely enough on the orientation of the flange on the HP valve, which means I need to take that pipe off again and re-heat it so I can turn the flange on that end. Not that big a deal.
The thin tube leading off from the very top is the connection to the reversing engine:
(https://i.postimg.cc/pdzZJjK1/IMG-4016.jpg)
Then started testing and timing. The valve rod was close, but needed to move up about 1/16" on the connector to the reverse link. The timing of the eccentric looks okay so far, may need a minor tweak later on (seems like they always do!)
In testing with the timing, I was able to get the downstroke on the piston working great, but the upstroke went well a couple times, then I started getting a lot of blow-by out the top of the valve body. At first I thought I had the spacing on the spools wrong, but after a while I looked in through the access port on the side with a flashlight and found that the lower o-ring on the upper spool had come out of its groove. So, unscrewed the upper spool, pulled out the ring and saw it was stretched out from being pulled out of its slot, and put in a new one. Same thing happened very quickly. Hmmm... pulled out the spool and ring again and looked down inside from the top, and I see what the issue is. After I cut the grooves for the o-rings, I went back and turned back the metal between the grooves to give it maximum flow to the port. But, I can see where I went a little too far at the lower end and cut into the wall of the groove, so the groove is only half depth there. :facepalm: :wallbang:
Remedy for it is to pull the upper o-ring carrier out and remake it. This is one of the reasons why I wanted to make the carriers as separate pieces rather than turning the grooves into the body itself - one mistake and the whole valve body is bad. The carrier is just held in with some gasket maker so I can make a little puller and work it out again.
So, good news is the valve setup does work and movement on the piston is good, and the new globe valve is a success. Just a couple parts to redo, so it will be another day or so till the next test. Um, yeah, this was intended to build suspense for the next episode, yeah, thats it! :Jester: Not a big setback in the grand scheme of things, just a small pothole on the road.
:cheers:
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The flange on the pipe has been fixed, and the o ring carrier has been pulled out. As suspected, the side walls on the lower groove are too short, letting the ring blow out. Will make a new carrier this afternoon and get it installed, will be ready for test round 2 tomorrow. :ThumbsUp:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Thanks Jeff!
And the new o-ring carrier is made, with the groove walls the proper height this time, and its installed into the valve body. Going to let the gasket maker goo set up overnight and give it another try with the compressor tomorrow.
:cheers:
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Great debug work, Chris! And great job thinking ahead on how various parts could be changed/repaired. You're going to have this working in no time! (or at least minimal time :Lol:) :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
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Thanks Kim!
Yeah, really glad I made the o ring carriers as separate pieces. This morning I got things reassembled and started testing/timing again. It was pushing piston both directions well now, but not up as well as down - discovered that the seal on the lower pipe to the cylinder was leaking badly, taking pressure away from the up stroke. Thats an easy fix. Then the lower o ring carrier did the same thing the upper had, and blew out the inner o ring. I was half expecting that to happen, since both carriers were originally made to the same dimensions. So, need to remake that one now! :shrug: Since I needed to remove the valve body from the cylinder to fix that lower seal anyway, that will make it easier to get at the lower carrier, plus I think I'll do some initial testing off the engine to make sure the spools are both centered and sealing well before re-assembling it back on the engine. I want to take my time on this, its key to the whole engine to have the HP valve working properly. Worst case, if the o-ring method doesn't work well enough, the carriers can always be replaced with normal spool valve tubes.
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Got the lower o ring carrier remade, so far so good. Stille need to redo the gaskets on the pipes, maybe another test tomorrow.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Good luck with the gaskets and re-assy! :cheers:
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You are just dragging this out to see how long we will keep watching, aren't you? Well it's working well so far.
Ian.
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You are just dragging this out to see how long we will keep watching, aren't you? Well it's working well so far.
Ian.
Just like the new season of your favorite TV show, delayed due to the strikes. My elves are holding the parts hostage for more cookies! :Jester:
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Some more time in the shop this morning testing things. I took the valve body off the engine to look at the lower pipe seal. This time I had made the pipe seals out of some thin silicon rubber sheet gasket material I had for the seals on the RC submarines. It compresses well, and is a closed cell so no leaks through it. When I pulled the lower gasket out, I could see the indentations that the edges of the ports had left, and it looked like a good seal all the way around on both sides of the gasket. Hmmmm... Hooked up the air line, moved the valve to send air out the lower port, and covered the end of the port. Still had a heck of a breeze blowing! Okay, someplace else is leaking. I traced it back to a pinhole flaw in the silver soldering at the base of the pipe. Here is a closeup of it, in the center of the picture, with the pinhole circled with a marker pen:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Vv9P4ZBh/IMG-4017.jpg)
Amazing how much air was coming out of it. Flashbacks to pinhole leaks when soldering up boilers. I had never done a pressure test on the joints on the valve body - silly me to just visually inspect it. :hammerbash:
Easy fix, since there was no way I wanted to strip the paint and resolder it: clamped it in the mill vise with the hole facing up, and drilled/tapped it for a 2-56 screw, going partway through the side wall. Installed a short screw with some thick red loctite. Leak solved! I wish it was that easy on a boiler, but its not.
Back to assembly and testing, found that the upper spool needed the transition from the outer cylinder shape to the tapered section rounded just a bit, it was a sticking point as the o ring went by. Also found a couple places on the throttle valve pipes that were minor air leaks, tightened the bolts on those flanges and those went away. Then I checked around the top o ring carrier, and found a leak there, between the carrier and the valve body inner wall. When I replaced it the other day I did not put in a new layer of the sealant, so naturally that was leaking. So, just redid that, so I need to wait another day (sorry) for that to cure up.
So goes the spool valve saga, tune in tomorrow (and the next day(s)). In the meantime maybe I'll make up the smaller globe valves that will be needed for the starting valves on the other cylinders later on...
:cheers: :cheers:
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Continuing the excellent detective work, Chris! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn:
And the suspense is killing me! But I know you'll get there soon. :)
Kim
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Continuing the excellent detective work, Chris! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn:
And the suspense is killing me! But I know you'll get there soon. :)
Kim
Thanks Kim! If I was Hercule Poirot, I'd find out that all the parts are guilty of leaking! :Jester: Leaks On The Orient Engine!
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You have to make this even more exciting:
And tomorrow I'll show you how I plugged the hole.
Would a drop of epoxy resin glue possible?
Assuming there is no oil involved.
Greetings Michael
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: quote from the engineer of the Orient Express, translated from Bulgarian - "If that Poirot guy yells 'LEAK!' again when the safety lifts, I'm locking him in the tender toolbox!" :Lol:
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You have to make this even more exciting:
And tomorrow I'll show you how I plugged the hole.
Would a drop of epoxy resin glue possible?
Assuming there is no oil involved.
Greetings Michael
If the hole was drilled and tapped to give the epoxy room to be pushed in, and the threads would give it a mechanical grip, not sure if I would trust the epoxy to hold on a smoothly drilled hole. Before drilling, the hole was too tiny to get much epoxy in. Now that I know that the screw solution worked, I can trimm off the screw head and give it a dab of paint to hide it.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: quote from the engineer of the Orient Express, translated from Bulgarian - "If that Poirot guy yells 'LEAK!' again when the safety lifts, I'm locking him in the tender toolbox!" :Lol:
Or take him literally and lock him in the loo... :lolb:
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As mentioned yesterday, I had gotten the o-ring carrier gasketed back in, and was waiting for that to cure, so started making up a batch of smaller globe valves. Going to need two of them for the starting valves on the IP and LP cylinders (both LP ones are fed from one inlet), but while I'm at it making four was almost as fast when production lining parts through each setup. Got the bodies and the flanges made, next up will be the stems and seats.
(https://i.postimg.cc/0ygqMHhD/IMG-4018.jpg)
This morning I got the valve body re-assembled and started more testing. Good progress at first, getting the timing close, then the elephant in the room sat on me again. The lower ring on the upper carrier blew out AGAIN. :hammerbash: This arrangement worked perfectly on the valve for the reversing engine, but that was with a much smaller bore in the valve body, so the rings were much smaller, about 1/4 or 5/16" OD. The rings for the HP valve are about 3/4" OD. I'm thinking (dangerous, I know) that the smaller ones are much stiffer along the length, so there is more force to keep them pushed out into the carrier. The larger ones bend easier so they can flex if some compressed air gets between them and the side wall of the groove, pushing them inwards (and out of the groove) when the valve is opening/closing.
:thinking: :headscratch: :thinking: Much thinking needed...
A number possibilities popped up on the shop elve's chalkboard.
- Scrap the o-ring plan and go back to solid spool, make new port tubes that could slide in where the carriers are now so valve body is kept.
- remake the spools and carriers to use a smaller o-ring, use existing valve rod
- keep larger diameters but switch to o rings with larger cross section. The current ones are 1/16" diameter, could try thicker ones which would not flex as easily. Would have to get some in that size. Still would need to make new carriers. Larger diameter would let more air through, though is that really needed for a slow running engine model?
- change internals of the valve body to hide a D-valve setup :noidea:
- take a vacation to the Chimay brewery in Belguim and become a monk (with a herd of monk-elves)
Guess which one the shop elves are voting for? :Lol:
Option 3 is promising, with option 1 being quicker since I have the smaller o rings already (have a full range of sizes, but mostly in the 1/16" cross section). Heading out to lunch with some friends soon, will let this one stew a while. What do you guys think?
:cheers:
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In principle it's a good idea with the extra bush for the controls. This is also done on original large engines. But the piston rings are sliders on the piston.
Maybe that would be a solution to the problem. The edge of the steam pressure side of the piston slide is bevelled. The exhaust has a hard edge. Doesn't the control have an inner flow?
Michael
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What do you guys think?
I am not sure if the image in post #1718 is still accurate, but if so, two things come to mind.
* There is a lot of clearance between the o-ring retainer and the spool. The o-ring is not supported as much as it could be.
* The edge of the spool is fairly abrupt. Some rounding might help.
Gene
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what about square o-rings (mc mastercarr) or going with something like turned delron rings?
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In principle it's a good idea with the extra bush for the controls. This is also done on original large engines. But the piston rings are sliders on the piston.
Maybe that would be a solution to the problem. The edge of the steam pressure side of the piston slide is bevelled. The exhaust has a hard edge. Doesn't the control have an inner flow?
Michael
I don't quite understand - on the full size engine the rings are steel, correct? On my model, the rings are rubber o rings, and the ends of the spools are tapered.
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Suppose the spools weren't tapered all the way round? Sort of scalloped out, leaving three or four fingers at full diameter, that would support the o-ring in its groove.
Wilf
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What do you guys think?
I am not sure if the image in post #1718 is still accurate, but if so, two things come to mind.
* There is a lot of clearance between the o-ring retainer and the spool. The o-ring is not supported as much as it could be.
* The edge of the spool is fairly abrupt. Some rounding might help.
Gene
That image is still correct, though it is just a schematic view, I did curve the transitions from the end flats to the center of the spool where the diagram shows a hard corner.
I was wondering about the distance to the center of the spool. Right now the center is far enough in that the entire ring diameter could come out of the groove into the center of the spool (the outer ends of the spool never cross the rings in operation, just the center). But, even if it comes partway out and is stopped by the spool center, I'm not sure it would get pressed back into the groove properly on the next stroke. Hmm... The center of the spool has to be smaller than the ID of the rings, but you are right, maybe if I made the spool center just a little smaller than the ID rather than a lot smaller. That would be a fairly easy test, I could wrap the center in some sticky back foil tape just to see if it solves the problem. Thanks! I'll try that. I had made the center small to maximize flow, but given the large diameters, even a small gap would be a large total cross section. Let you know in a while!
:cheers: :cheers:
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what about square o-rings (mc mastercarr) or going with something like turned delron rings?
As long as they are rigid enough not to flex outside the grooves, but enough they could be inserted. The delrin would be too rigid to slip into an internal groove, wouldn't it?
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Suppose the spools weren't tapered all the way round? Sort of scalloped out, leaving three or four fingers at full diameter, that would support the o-ring in its groove.
Wilf
Interesting. Maybe mill out the scallops with a ball end mill? The edges of the scallops would have to be tapered at the ends still, but that could increase the flow more. :thinking:
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I like the 'larger O-ring diameter' idea. If you keep the outer diameter of the O-ring the same but have a larger cross-section, That would mean you could have more of the O-ring embedded in the groove and keep it from popping out, right? That seems to make the most intuitive sense to me. The downside is that you'd have to buy new O-rings to try it.
Kim
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what about square o-rings (mc mastercarr) or going with something like turned delron rings?
As long as they are rigid enough not to flex outside the grooves, but enough they could be inserted. The delrin would be too rigid to slip into an internal groove, wouldn't it?
two rings per groove with a diagonal slice in each for fitment, are the port hole edges relieved?
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what about square o-rings (mc mastercarr) or going with something like turned delron rings?
As long as they are rigid enough not to flex outside the grooves, but enough they could be inserted. The delrin would be too rigid to slip into an internal groove, wouldn't it?
two rings per groove with a diagonal slice in each for fitment, are the port hole edges relieved?
The port hole edges are not relieved or tapered, no good way to get in there to do it, so if the rings shift or grow at all they would cut on the edges. The O-ring idea was my way of getting around the standard rings-on-the-piston method.
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I like the 'larger O-ring diameter' idea. If you keep the outer diameter of the O-ring the same but have a larger cross-section, That would mean you could have more of the O-ring embedded in the groove and keep it from popping out, right? That seems to make the most intuitive sense to me. The downside is that you'd have to buy new O-rings to try it.
Kim
That is my thinking as well. On the smaller valve set in the reverse engine, the diameter of the bore is a lot smaller so it was a much smaller o ring, which is more rigid for its size.
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Okay, did a test along the lines of what Internal-fire suggested. Taped around the center of the upper spool, which blew out most recently (and every time there has been a failure, its been on the ring closest to the steam inlet and failed into the center of the spool, which supports the idea that the rings are sagging in from the groove, air getting underneath, and there is nothing there to stop it, so when the taper comes back down it pinches and pulls it the rest of the way out of the groove.
Anyway, I taped the upper spool so the small diameter in the center was closer to the ID of the ring, and it has held up to a bunch of timing tests. Then the bottom ring blew in! I'd have taped up both for that test, but its a lot harder to pull the entire valve stem out than to just unscrew the top spool.
So, next experiment that lets me keep the existing carriers for now which means a quicker test. Going to pull the valve rod out and tape up the bottom spool as well, and replace that bottom ring with a new one (when they fail the ring gets damaged). If that works fine, then I can just make two new spools - the tape is not a good long term solution, just a quick way to test the idea. If that does not solve it, then I need to pull the carriers out to remake them with either smaller ID or larger cross section rings, or both smaller ID and larger cross section. I do have some 3/32 cross section rings in a larger size, and its not hard to reduce the diameter of o-rings by cutting a section out of them and super-gluing the ends back together. You can buy spools of Viton to make custom sizes that way, just needs a fresh exacto knife blade to make clean cuts, and gel-type superglue.
Good news is that I was able to get some good piston movement in both up and down directions as I closed in on the timing before it failed on the rings.
Thanks everyone for the ideas!! :cheers: :cheers:
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You may want to check with someone that sells orings, they do come in different hardness of rubber.
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You may want to check with someone that sells orings, they do come in different hardness of rubber.
True - the suppliers I am using carry the range of durometers. Normally I've been using the 75A, which is in the medium range. Harder ones may be better for this, less stiction and flexing, though more sensitive to OD of the spool and depth of the groove. Good point! :cheers:
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Just finished taking the valve body off to get the valve rod and spools out. During that process, I realized that doing another tape test would at minimum require doing this again. Time to bite the bullet and do it right, well, as right as I know how at the moment, Murphy will likely hit me in the back of the head later and teach me more, that is always possible!
So, going to make up new carriers and spools to combine whats been learned. Smaller ID rings with larger cross section. Keeping the centers of the spools large enough to reduce the chance of blowouts, the diameters involved should still allow for plenty of air flow. Also going to tweak how I am fitting the carriers, sealing them up, and holding them in place. Also going to make a test rig (simple clamp blocks and a lever on the valve rod) to allow testing and tuning on the bench without installing on the cylinder, which will facilitate experiments in the long run. Given the scale of this engine and how much work has gone into it so far, foolish to continue winging it now that I know the valve is a bit more complex than I thought it would be. Even if I go back to the solid spools in a ported tube like the original, no rings, that effort will be worth it to tune it.
Bottom line - not going to be getting first revolutions on the engine for a while, but the end result should be better. Thanks again for all the tips, keep them coming!
Chris
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Just ordered a few bags of o-rings, both 75 and 90 durometer so I can test both. I'm going to make a change to how they seal inside the valve body, going to add an o-ring at either end of the carrier so I can do away with the gasket maker goo, messy stuff and it takes too long to cure up. This way I can pull the carriers without risking wrecking them, and a set screw from the outside will hold them in place just fine.
For now, going to finish up the last pieces on those globe valves (just the stems, stem glands, and valve tip to go), and get ready for some RC boat gatherings with our local group this weekend.
:cheers:
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Whille waiting for the o-rings, I went ahead and made up the smaller globe valves, two for this model, two for future use. This picture is before soldering, they are cleaning up in the pickle solution now.
(https://i.postimg.cc/wB6mY117/IMG-4021.jpg)
Also a good time to get the throttle valve and its pipes painted, that has started too.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: This is machining - on a globe al scale! :Lol: (sorry for bad pun) :facepalm:
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What do you use for packing around the stems of the valves?
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What do you use for packing around the stems of the valves?
On the larger ones I put an o ring u der the gland cap, which is hollow. Those have a 4-40 thread stem. For these smaller ones with a 2-56 stem, I will not use the ring to keep them smaller, and just put some steam sealant on the threads, which stays flexible. Even without sealant a long 2-56 thread leaks very little.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: This is machining - on a globe al scale! :Lol: (sorry for bad pun) :facepalm:
I know you better than that, you are not sorry, can hear you chuckling from here! :Lol:
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Caught again! :Lol:
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Those are great-looking globe valves, Chris! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
This makes me want to make some too! Someday, I'll find a use for some neat valves like that and shamelessly copy your design.
Kim
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Those are great-looking globe valves, Chris! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
This makes me want to make some too! Someday, I'll find a use for some neat valves like that and shamelessly copy your design.
Kim
Copy away! Just got them out of the pickle and assembled the glands in with some teflon tape. And, promptly set them aside till they are needed! :shrug:
Getting some prep work done one the o ring carriers too. The new rings have shipped but probably won't get them until Monday or Tuesday. Making sketches for possible changes too. Might be a good time to finish up more of the cover studs for the other cylinders.
:cheers:
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The elves must know someone with a fast sleigh, fedex just updated the tracking on the o rings, saying they will be here tomorrow! Yay!! :pinkelephant:
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The rings just arrived, 9:30 am - lots quicker than the first tracking prediction of Tuesday next week! Guess I'm spending some time playing in the shop this morning. :cartwheel:
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you must have sacrificed an elf to the shipping god, fedius exudius :stickpoke:
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you must have sacrificed an elf to the shipping god, fedius exudius :stickpoke:
The elves were hiding too well, ,so I used two shop gnomes instead! :LittleDevil:
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With the o rings here, got things turning in the shop this morning. I had ordered two sizes, in both 75A and 90A durometer hardnesses so I could experiment a bit. Cut down some more brass rod to make another pair of carriers (getting lots of practice at this, they go quick now!). First turned grooves on the outside for some o ring seals (using the 1/16 cross section ones I already have) between the carriers and the valve body, so I dont need the gasket goo anymore. Then bored out the centers, and started sneaking up on the internal groove dimensions for the new thicker rings.
(https://i.postimg.cc/j2SWXwG0/IMG-4023.jpg)
Several test fits later, I got the 'recipe' down for the fit. Using those handwheel settings for depth and width of the groove, doing the other three grooves went pretty quickly.
(https://i.postimg.cc/d3NhSQY7/IMG-4022.jpg)
Then cut the port openings...
(https://i.postimg.cc/fW8SbC9w/IMG-4024.jpg)
Finished (I hope) carriers, ready to make the matching spools:
(https://i.postimg.cc/yYWg3Rm0/IMG-4025.jpg)
Now, the sharped eyed among you (and I know you are there!) will catch the fact that the outside grooves are not in the same place on either end of the two carriers. This is intentional, since they need to clear the exhaust ports on the valve body, which are in slightly different places top and bottom.
So far so good, next I'll start on the valve spools. Going to make a couple changes there, adding a hex on the end of the adjustable one at the top to make it easier to turn for timing it, that sort of thing. I'm tempted to try one with the deep center just to see if the thicker rings have solved the blowout issue alone.
I did hear from a visiting foreign shop elf, who rode in on his pet monkey (inside joke, he gets it!) and gave me some more info about that blowout problem being a known thing in the industry, when high velocity fluids (like air, water, Guinness, etc) suddenly go past the groove. Did some web searches, and got lots of hits about that. Fascinating stuff!
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Thanks Jeff!
Couple short sessions in the shop this afternoon/evening saw the new spools made. As I mentioned earlier, I added a small hex on top of the upper one, which is adjustable with a thread on the top of the rod. The hex will make it a LOT easier to tweak its position without damaging the surface.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Xq4XQ2Dz/IMG-4027.jpg)
Here are the new carriers and the spools, got enough assembled to located and loctite the lower spool in place on the rod, want to let that set up solid.
(https://i.postimg.cc/cHQr7qT3/IMG-4028.jpg)
As with the first set, I tested the length of the tapered sections on the spools by blowing in the carrier ports while sliding them on the spool till the air stopped coming out the end, marked that location, and kept moving the carrier till air came out the other end. Marked that. Distance between the marks is the lap on the valves, the 'dead' space in the movement. Starting out with a little over 1/32", can always file on the taper to reduce that if need be, but it should be a good start - the total travel on the eccentrics is about .4" as I recall. The upper spool is adjustable for location and the bottom of the rod is adjustable on the fitting to the reverse link, so as long as the lower spool is close to right position it all should be good.
Both days this weekend our group is out at the pond with the RC subs to wrap up the outside season, so may not get much shop playing in till Monday, but that will let the loctite cure up good and solid before re-assembling the valve for pressure testing. Thanks again to all for following along and helping out with tips and advice!! :cheers: :cheers:
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Chris...the inner & outer O-rings in the Carrier bodies appear as a Brown elastomer which is usually an FPM, or Trademark of Viton elastomer..........Viton when tapped is dead in resonance, and without any bounce compared to Nitrile
Selecting the 75 Duro rings will allow them to compress, hold pressure and be of lower 'stiction' with far less effort to move the spool than if the 90 Duro rings were installed
Comparing the two elastomers by tapping or pinching :hammerbash: the difference is like chalk & cheese
Derek
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Chris...the inner & outer O-rings in the Carrier bodies appear as a Brown elastomer which is usually an FPM, or Trademark of Viton elastomer..........Viton when tapped is dead in resonance, and without any bounce compared to Nitrile
Selecting the 75 Duro rings will allow them to compress, hold pressure and be of lower 'stiction' with far less effort to move the spool than if the 90 Duro rings were installed
Comparing the two elastomers by tapping or pinching :hammerbash: the difference is like chalk & cheese
Derek
They are actually black, and its FKM not FPM. I also think the opposite on the stiction, the 90's seem slicker since they are harder, as long as I dont try and compress them as much. For this use, I dont want the higher compression like would be used in a static seal anyway.
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With the RC boats run out at the pool at the boat show on Grand island, no playtime in the shop today other than getting the color coat of paint on the valve and pipe from the compressor to the HP valve body:
(https://i.postimg.cc/7LgGvBWw/IMG-4029.jpg)
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Hope nothing sank that wasn't supposed to, with the RC boats on the pool! :Lol:
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My experience was with US built Military Moog Servo control valves where they list o-rings as FKM, however the same Moog components manufactured in Europe list 0-rings as FPM, ......[fluro rubber] naturally being the same elastomer
:happyreader: So what’s the difference between FPM and FKM?
FPM is the international designation to ISO – whereas FKM is the ASTM abbreviation. Both of these designations stand for the same base material : Fluoro Rubber.
As far a stiction is concerned, I was looking at the ramp-up of the spool taper, where softer lubricated elastomer rings sliding over a smooth surface may assist
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Hope nothing sank that wasn't supposed to, with the RC boats on the pool! :Lol:
All went great. The pool at the club hosting the show is right where visitors go past from the parking area, so lots of people stopping by. Perfect weather, overcast so no hot sun. Fun show! Tomorrow we are back at local pond.
While watching tv earlier a thought hit for a simple test and tuning rig for the valve spools and body, going to do lots of testing off the engine to set both inlet and exhaust without having to disassemble so much. For those who remember the sitcom Tool Time, its being named the Binford Valvamatic 2000! Pics monday...
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Is it still a three week 12 hr a day training session to learn to operate the Valvamatic 2000? :Lol: I heard fully trained Swiss Navy operatives cried like babies and quit after a day and a half on that course.... :shrug:
Glad to hear the RC boating was fun. :cheers:
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Hopefully you have got a good solution to your O ring problem :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :wine1:
I have had fun with O rings and ports as well ::)
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Hopefully you have got a good solution to your O ring problem :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :wine1:
I have had fun with O rings and ports as well ::)
I'll find out for sure tomorrow. Had a few minutes in the shop this morning to assemble the valve and the Valvamatic test fixture, quick air test to kmow it moves and seals. Rest of the day out at the pond with the rc boats. Some of the ouf of towners made it in from Canada and Pennsylvania, fantastic time.
:cheers:
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Okay! After a couple days playing out at the pond, time to get playing back in the model shop again. I set up the fancy ValvaMatic 2000, which took seconds and seconds to make... :Lol: All it is, is the valve body clamped in a vise that is clamped to a tooling plate, with a block down at the end of the valve rod where I can use a thin screwdriver to move it back and forth.
Here it is with the inlet valve in the normal center position:
(https://i.postimg.cc/MHQ4Yxjx/IMG-4030.jpg)
In that position, I turned on the air, and moved the valve till it was in the center position with both outlets blocked. This is where it needs to be for the TDC/BDC positions on the crankshaft. Got the upper spool adjusted to be in a position with a very small lap, so a small movement in one direction opened the passage to the cylinder at one end, a small movement in the other direction opened just the other. I marked this position on the fitting at the bottom of the valve rod. Screwing the upper spool in from there will increase the lap, screwing it out will decrease the lap.
Then, moved the inlet valve to the bottom exhaust flange:
(https://i.postimg.cc/662DKVbS/IMG-4031.jpg)
In that position, I could find how far the valve rod had to move to open the bottom cylinder to the exhaust, and marked that on the valve rod end fitting. The tricky bit is that with pressure at just one end, the valve rod wants to move by itself like a, well, piston, would. Repeated the process with the inlet valve at the top exhaust fitting, and the top cap installed, to find where the top exhaust passage is opened.
Here is a picture of that bottom fitting with the positions marked on it:
(https://i.postimg.cc/zDs4GL9f/IMG-4033.jpg)
The center mark by 46.5 on the ruler is the center off position, with the lead set to very little, about the width of the pen line. The mark at 41 on the left side is where the bottom exhaust opened, that is fairly close but I want to move that a bit closer. The mark at 50.5 on the ruler is where the top exhaust opened. That is too far, that one definitely needs to move in closer.
So far the Valveamatic (patent refused with laughter) is working great - these tests and measurements would have been possible but awkward when on the engine, and to get the valve spools out to change them is trivial when on the bench - remove a few screws on the bottom cover and the assembly slides out. :wine1: So, next step will be to machine the tapers back, slightly on the lower end of the lower spool, more on the upper end of the upper spool, and re-run the test. Well worth taking the valve body off the engine to do all these tests/adjustments, so much easier this way. I'll also give all the paint chips a touch-up.
Once the relative positions of the spools are good, and the upper spool fixed in place with a lock nut and maybe some teflon tape or blue locktite on the internal threads, then the valve body can be re-assembled onto the engine and the final step taken - adjusting the position of the bottom fitting on the valve rod so the valves are centered with the eccentric movement. After that, the eccentrics for both directions can get final timing adjustment. At that point, the engine should run!
This is the only spool valve on this engine, the other three are D-valves, though they are the double-ported type, which I need to learn how to do. They are all quite large, but they have the normal threaded nut on the valve rod we are all used to doing, so much simpler to make.
Time for some errands, back in the shop in a little while... :cheers: :cheers:
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Nice! Very meticulously methodical, Chris! You'll have this running in no time. :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn:
So, with the new o-rings do they seem to be staying in place better? Any pop-out issues? Or is it too early to tell?
Kim
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Nice! Very meticulously methodical, Chris! You'll have this running in no time. :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn:
So, with the new o-rings do they seem to be staying in place better? Any pop-out issues? Or is it too early to tell?
Kim
Thanks Kim! Just finished with the timing between the spools and getting the exhaust ends of the spools trimmed/checked. This afternoon I'll probably get the upper spool locked in place, though if the lawn dries off I'll be out mowing that instead.
Thanks for the reminder, forgot to mention about the new rings with the thicker cross section - so far looks like they are working perfectly! :cartwheel: They now have enough beam strength so they can't flex and blow out of the grooves, very happy with that! I've run the valve rod back and forth quickly to reproduce the times when it blew before with the thinner rings, all is solid.
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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forgot to mention about the new rings with the thicker cross section - so far looks like they are working perfectly!
Glad to head that the new design seems to be working out. :praise2:
Looking back at the pictures in post #1890 and #1892 it appears that there is a lot of clearance between the inner and outer metal pieces, leaving a pretty large gap for the o-ring to squeeze through.
Parker recommends only a few thousands of an inch for clearance in most cases, for either static or sliding seals. Is there a special reason why your design has a much larger clearance?
Gene
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forgot to mention about the new rings with the thicker cross section - so far looks like they are working perfectly!
Glad to head that the new design seems to be working out. :praise2:
Looking back at the pictures in post #1890 and #1892 it appears that there is a lot of clearance between the inner and outer metal pieces, leaving a pretty large gap for the o-ring to squeeze through.
Parker recommends only a few thousands of an inch for clearance in most cases, for either static or sliding seals. Is there a special reason why your design has a much larger clearance?
Gene
Hi Gene,
I think the camera angle and shadows are making the gaps look bigger than they are. Theres only about 8 or 10 thou, and thats on the new carriers with the thicker rings as well. When the spool moves to the open position the gap is a lot more, and thats when the rings were flexing out before. On the current arrangement they are not moving at all.
This afternoon was yard work time, I'll be back in the shop in the morning !
:cheers:
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I think the camera angle and shadows are making the gaps look bigger than they are.
It's a good thing I am going in next week for a recalibration of my eyeballs. :lolb:
Gene
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I think the camera angle and shadows are making the gaps look bigger than they are.
It's a good thing I am going in next week for a recalibration of my eyeballs. :lolb:
Gene
Are your eyeballs in Metric or Imperial mode? :ROFL:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Glad the bigger rings are working out. :cheers:
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And we have first movement on the engine under its own power! This morning I got the valve body (paint touched up yesterday afternoon) back on the engine, and set the centering relative to the eccentrics. Started testing with low pressure air with the access ports open to do the centering, getting the ports to open just past top and bottom dead center. Also had to add a slightly thicker gasket on the upper pipe from the valve body, it was not sealing completely at one end, and whistling like a drunken shop elf. That all got me to this stage:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWY8uRPNOtg
:whoohoo:
A few more tweaks, and its going almost a full revolution now! With the LP cylinders to get it past top/bottom center, it would be running, or if it had an actual flywheel to carry it over.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IruDgNBkDaU
:whoohoo: :pinkelephant:
And the new, thicker cross section o-rings seem to be working perfectly! :cartwheel:
I've tested the reverse direction also, that just needed a few degrees of movement on the eccentric to get it working the same as the forward direction.
So, major step forward, quite pleased with it. Good place to take a break for lunch and do some more experiments this afternoon and see if I can get it to run past TDC by itself.
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Had another idea and tested it, and I'm pretty sure that I made the center section on the lower spool just a bit too wide, so its overlapping top and bottom and letting pressure past both ends of the spool at the same time very briefly. Still, its progress overall!
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Excellent progress, Chris! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Very close to a full runner!
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Cheers
Rich
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Did a little more testing to confirm that the lower valve center section distance needs to be changed slightly, which gave me and the elves an idea (okay, guys, stop poking me with the toothpicks, I'll tell them it was ALL the elves idea!) Wow, they get touchy about credit... :Lol:
Anyway, having learned on this large size valve about the importance of the o ring cross section, and fixed that, next learning was how important the length of the smaller center section is, and how hard it is to measure once the corners of the taper have been blended in to the straight section since there is no longer an easily visible transition. So, since the spool is still a lot larger diameter than the valve rod, there is room to make the spool in two pieces, threaded together so the center length can be fine tuned. With some loctite blue on the threads, it will stay in place well enough for tuning, and a set screw tightened in when the tuning is down will keep it there more permenantly.
I've gotten the first spool half done, for the lower end. This will be loctited in place on the valve rod, the upper half will thread into this, and the same setup on the top spool will make every critical dimension (aside from OD of the straight sections) adjustable without having to remake parts all the time. This method also makes it easier to use the compound slide to cut the tapers, since all will be done with the wide end at the chuck, so I can leave the compound angle set for all the parts. Before, I was roughing the tapers in by hand, and finishing them with a file, which is not very precise. Still using a file to ease the transition point from the taper to the wide end.
(https://i.postimg.cc/1XwdTYkD/IMG-4039.jpg)
It worked out with this size spool and valve rod that an M8x1.0 thread leaves enough metal on the inside and outside. The only thing that could be an issue is the little gap left where the adjustment shows in the center of the spool when assembled. But, that gap will never be under the O rings in operation so it shouldn't be a problem.
So, this whole process drags out for more days, but in the long run its been worth it, have been learning a LOT with all the changes to the original idea, and this mornings almost-runs gives me confidence that its going to work out in the end. Thanks again to all who have chimed in along the way! :cheers: :cheers:
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So here is the new lower spool. All one piece, right?
(https://i.postimg.cc/GhZ2vBQN/IMG-4042.jpg)
But wait, its adjusting! :Lol:
(https://i.postimg.cc/kXVGVNxK/IMG-4043.jpg)
Here are the two pieces of it:
(https://i.postimg.cc/BZ7tQ71J/IMG-4041.jpg)
One more to make, for the upper end...
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You should hollow it out and leave a tiny note in there explaining why it is designed thusly. Centuries from now the museum curator where your models are displayed will discover the note during a refurb and can write an exciting note about it in a forum just like this one.
Or, if you prefer, the note could just say "Kilroy was here". Or, if you're really mean (we know you aren't) it could say, "The other note has the location of the money."
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You should hollow it out and leave a tiny note in there explaining why it is designed thusly. Centuries from now the museum curator where your models are displayed will discover the note during a refurb and can write an exciting note about it in a forum just like this one.
Or, if you prefer, the note could just say "Kilroy was here". Or, if you're really mean (we know you aren't) it could say, "The other note has the location of the money."
Perfect!! :ThumbsUp:
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Second spool is done, later I'll get the valve rod prepped and loctite the lower fixed spool in place so it can set up overnight. Going to make a new valve rod, quick to do, and I can use the first one as a position guide since the lower spool was in great position for the reverse link. Also making the top end longer to make better room for the upper locknut. More pics and hopefully video tomorrow. :cheers:
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+1 for Marv's second idea of the other note! :LittleDevil:
Isn't that adjusting spool the same mechanism as the exploding bolt gizmo, two bolts and a nut filled with a few match heads and flung at the sidewalk in my misspent yout' ? no wonder the elves wanted to make it like that! :Lol:
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+1 for Marv's second idea of the other note! :LittleDevil:
Isn't that adjusting spool the same mechanism as the exploding bolt gizmo, two bolts and a nut filled with a few match heads and flung at the sidewalk in my misspent yout' ? no wonder the elves wanted to make it like that! :Lol:
Had another idea for the note - "Hey, Why'd you take me apart? Took 2 years to get the adjustment right the first time, good luck!"
As for those nut/bolt things, I remember those! We used cap pistol caps, the rolled paper ones. Hadn't thought about those in decades, 5+ at least! Now to make noise I just take the pistol to the range and scare the heck out of paper targets and bowling pins.
:cheers:
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After dinner I got the new valve rod made - looks just like the old one, just slightly longer to let the lock nut on top be fully threaded on, first one it worked out to about 3 threads only. Just got the lower spool lower half stuck in place with some Loctite retaining compound. Here it is with all the pieces loosely threaded on:
(https://i.postimg.cc/B6VrKF0w/IMG-4044.jpg)
Closer view of the bottom end. The spool half on the left is the one loctited in place, the half on the right is adjustable for length of the center section. The left (bottom) end of the rod itself is milled to a 5/32" hex to aid in adjusting the position of the rod on the lower fitting.
(https://i.postimg.cc/0jKLdN55/IMG-4045.jpg)
Here is a closer look at the upper end. The half on the right threads onto the top of the rod, to adjust the position between the two spools. The locknut will hold the upper spool in place. The half on the left threads onto that, to adjust the length of the center gap within the spool.
(https://i.postimg.cc/76hvhVp2/IMG-4046.jpg)
The threads holding both of the adjustable halves of the spools will be wrapped in teflon tape to seal them and maybe I'll add some Loctite Blue once I get the final adjustment, the blue holds it from wandering but allows for movement with a wrench.
So, tomorrow I can set up the Valve-A-Matic again and time the new assemblies. With these adjustments, it SHOULD be the last time to make these parts! I hope. Really!
:cheers:
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Very intriguing solution :ThumbsUp: but do you then have to adjust the loves one first, as it moves the rest, or can each one be individually adjuste without moving the others :noidea:
Per :cheers: :popcorn:
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Very intriguing solution :ThumbsUp: but do you then have to adjust the loves one first, as it moves the rest, or can each one be individually adjuste without moving the others :noidea:
Per :cheers: :popcorn:
Hi Per,
First will get the initial lengths of the spools set by measuring, then get the gap between the spools and go back and fine tune the lengths and distances. That can all be done withe the valve body on the bench. Setting the distance of the bottom link fitting to the spools is done when back on the engine with the thread at the bottom of the valve rod. Then comes any final fine adjustments when getting the engine to run.
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Okay, got the initial timing done on the new adjustable spool valves, all done on the bench, ready to install on the engine and do the fine tuning and test running! Per, you were correct, the bottom fixed spool was the reference point for everything else. Took some back and forth between the spools to get them all synced up, but it went pretty quickly.
Now off to lunch with some friends, probably will try the valve on the engine this afternoon, maybe tomorrow morning.
:cheers:
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After lunch I started tweaking the timing with it on the engine. The inlet ports are both timed, working well. No blowouts or leaks. It looks like the exhuast valve timing needs a couple tweaks, the exhaust for the upper port looks to be closing too early and backpressuring the cylinder at the top of the stroke, so that will be the next thing looked at, probably tomorrow. Things are moving forward well though!
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Centuries from now the museum curator where your models are displayed will discover the note during a refurb and can write an exciting note about it in a forum just like this one.
More likely it would happen more like that Pepsi commercial from years ago during the Cola wars. The one where an archeologist in the far future unearths an iconic Coke bottle. When one of his students asks him what the object was he replies "I have NO idea."
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Centuries from now the museum curator where your models are displayed will discover the note during a refurb and can write an exciting note about it in a forum just like this one.
More likely it would happen more like that Pepsi commercial from years ago during the Cola wars. The one where an archeologist in the far future unearths an iconic Coke bottle. When one of his students asks him what the object was he replies "I have NO idea."
At my parents house, when I was real little they added a room off the back of the house. Someone in the contractors crew goofed, and ordered way too much rock in way too big a size, and too many concrete trucks (they were able to stop the trucks after the first one when they saw the paperwork). End result, is that the slab floor for the addition wound up being solid rather than with a crawl space underneath, and is several feet thick. Whoops! We always figured that centuries from now some archeologist would dig up the foundation, and proclaim it a giant altar where they did ritual sacrifices of these demons called 'telemarketers'. :lolb:
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That would be a great use of the heavy platform, for sure! but maybe you could lease it to Elon and the 1.00002 safety factor Space X jokers as a Rochester launch facility? :Lol: (great BBQ potential during engine warmup) :cheers:
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That would be a great use of the heavy platform, for sure! but maybe you could lease it to Elon and the 1.00002 safety factor Space X jokers as a Rochester launch facility? :Lol: (great BBQ potential during engine warmup) :cheers:
Well, a few years ago I carved the head of a wildebeest, are you saying that I should carve the other end of a musk ox? :LittleDevil: :lolb:
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Early this evening I was looking at the parts trying to figure out an easy way to get the exhaust side timing tuned without having to keep moving the inlet valve back and forth from the inlet flange to the exhaust flange, since adjusting the bottom exhaust moves everything else.
Then I realized that there is a simple solution, just make another connector to go to the compressor hose. Then its just a matter of swapping tubes to the quick connector fitting on the compressor hose. Don't need a valve on it, can just use the pressure valve on the compressor hose end.
Did that earlier, and works perfectly. Was able to quickly determine the lower end of the lower spool is too low, making it open the exhaust too early and keeping it open too long. Tomorrow I will adjust that, and use the new setup to work my way up the valve rod and tune each position, which hopefully will get each valve event timed right. Really makes me look forward to doing the much simpler d valves on the other cylinders!
:cheers:
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This morning did a little more tuning using the air feed into the bottom then the top exhaust port, the exhausts were opening/closing about 5 to 8 degrees off where they should. Got those adjusted, added air, and it took off!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjLW4mMtrOU
:whoohoo: :cartwheel: :wine1: :pinkelephant:
Not bad for a four cylinder engine on one cylinder and no flywheel! :DrinkPint: During the video you can hear when the camera and its microphone passes in front of the blast from the exhaust port! :Lol: Towards the middle and end I was hearing some rod knocks, then it stopped completely. Turns out the IP conrod big end bearing block came loose, the locknuts on top came off, and the lower cap stopped against the engine bed side. Guess my next step will be to add some blue loctite in a bunch of places, up till now things were just assembled enough to test fitment. The camera didn't pick up the lower pitch sounds echoing from the workbench, this thing has a pretty good rumble to it, scared the shop elves back into their apartments. :Jester:
So, some loctite on the moving parts, I need to file back the edge of the cylinder cap where it sits next to the valve body top cap a bit to make it easier to get the wrench in, some paint touchup, things like that and the HP side of things is pretty well set! Next week should see work start on the next cylinder. I'm torn between doing the IP since its next door, or over to the LP since those are 90 degrees to the HP crank so it will run smoother (the IP crank is 180 off the HP). Probably will take them in order though since it will make for better access when putting things together.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Superb! Great to see it turning. Not surprised it's got a serious power rumble. It's going to have some real power when it's complete. The valve events sounded good. The rod bearing that came undone may have been tightened by that foreign shop elf Loose Iano who left unannounced for Zimbabwe a while back. :Lol: :cheers:
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Great! A big milestone, congratulations! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: Now just a mere ton of other milestones to go. :cheers:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Superb! Great to see it turning. Not surprised it's got a serious power rumble. It's going to have some real power when it's complete. The valve events sounded good. The rod bearing that came undone may have been tightened by that foreign shop elf Loose Iano who left unannounced for Zimbabwe a while back. :Lol: :cheers:
Lets see, a 1.75" diameter HP piston, thats 2.405 square inches of surface area, running at just 40 psi for the test, that works out to 96.2 pounds of force on the piston, if the throttle had been wide open enough to keep the pressure up during the stroke. Wow! Glad I was keeping my fingers clear... Should be enough to power that Elf-A-Pult, can put the whole clan into orbit when the engine is done! :Lol:
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Great! A big milestone, congratulations! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: Now just a mere ton of other milestones to go. :cheers:
Thanks! This was the biggest milestone, getting it running for the first time. Going to be a beast when its done! I need to get the scale under the base again and see where its at weight-wise.
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Great! A big milestone, congratulations! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: Now just a mere ton of other milestones to go. :cheers:
Thanks! This was the biggest milestone, getting it running for the first time. Going to be a beast when its done! I need to get the scale under the base again and see where its at weight-wise.
Got the scale under the engine, as it sits with the HP cylinder installed, its at 44.5 pounds. Then weighed the raw parts for the other cylinders, which are not turned on the inside of the bore (will get lighter) and without the steam chests or pistons or valves (will get heavier) they are currently at 17.5 pounds. Coming out heavier than the 50 or 55 that I had guessed at early on, more in the 60 to 70 pound range!
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Hi Chris,
I just run your 'first run' video at 1/4 speed. So realistic at about 60 RPM. I can feel the heat and smell the smells from this side of the pond. Great work. :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Mike
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Hi Chris,
I just run your 'first run' video at 1/4 speed. So realistic at about 60 RPM. I can feel the heat and smell the smells from this side of the pond. Great work. :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Mike
Hadn't thought of the speed, by my count you are right, its doing about 4 revs per second in the video, 240 RPM which is about double the 125 rpm that the plans specify. Once the other cylinders are on I'm expecting that it will be able to run slower, had to speed it up to get it to flick past the top/bottom dead center points.
:cheers:
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Hi Chris,
I'm not into steam so don't understand it's mysteries.
That engine is a triple expansion steam engine, right? I can see how the steam would expand as it goes from HP to IP and then to the LP cylinders. Does it behave in the same way on compressed air? Do you need to make some alterations for air?
Mike.
I'm told there is no such thing as a dumb question, but this one might get close.
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Hi Chris,
I'm not into steam so don't understand it's mysteries.
That engine is a triple expansion steam engine, right? I can see how the steam would expand as it goes from HP to IP and then to the LP cylinders. Does it behave in the same way on compressed air? Do you need to make some alterations for air?
Mike.
I'm told there is no such thing as a dumb question, but this one might get close.
Hi Mike,
Not a dumb question at all! Early on in modelling I asked the same questions, and got varying answers depending on the knowledge of the one replying. :shrug:
This is a triple expansion engine, though it has two low pressure cylinders rather than one, they operate at the same time and the total volume of them equals the volume that a single LP cylinder would normally have. I think they did this to keep the engine narrow enough to fit in the hull, also keeps the diameter of the pistons down and the strength up.
On compressed air, it will not run as well as it would on steam, since steam expands many many more times than the same volume and pressure of air. I will take advantage of the fact that the originals had what are know as starting valves, which would send small amounts of high pressure steam to the IP and LP cylinders to aid in starting up, especially when the HP cylinder was stopped at the top or bottom of the stroke. What I will do is have the starting valves on the lines to the other cylinders just cracked open so it sends some more air to them. I did the same thing on my Sabino and Holly Pumping Engine models. Without the starting valve cracked open, the Sabino engine will run, but its a bit lumpy at slow speeds since the LP cylinder is not getting enough pressure to equal the power on the HP cylinder. With it opened slightly, it smooths out and runs evenly. For the big Holly engine, a triple with very large cylinders, there are separate starting valves for the IP and LP cylinders so I can adjust them individually - makes a big difference.
Chris
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Hi Chris,
Thanks for the explanation, you are good at explaining thinks as well as making them. It's good that you will be able to use the starting valves to get it to run nice and smooth and do not have to add any false pipes and valves.
Mike
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Congratulations, Chris! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Runs great on a single cylinder. Imagine what it will do on all four!
Kim
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Thanks guys!
Getting things tidied up, got the top caps touched up and all the studs/nuts on. LOTS of them, will be lots and lots more on the LP cylinder caps!
(https://i.postimg.cc/W1nyH3Wb/IMG-4051.jpg)
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Hello Chris, I'm very happy that everything is working well now.
You solved the problem with intelligence and skill.
I also installed a small ball valve to the second cylinder on a Stuart Compound.
This was also the case on the large compound steam engines. On this model it is always a little open. Open only until the engine runs smoothly.
Without this valve, these engines don't run as well. That is my experience.
(although I have seen videos of Stuart triple expansion engines running well without these valves. Maybe I didn't do a good job on my engine. 🤔)
Michael
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Hi Michael,
In that drawing I can see pressure guages by each cylinder. The original Sabino engi e had one on the LP cylinder as well. I'm planning on putting some small gauges on the steam chests for the cylinders on this model as a help in setting the startingvalves. Never done it before, should be interesting to see how it works out.
:cheers:
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Chris, congratulations on first, first run. looking great.
Mike, something that Chris did not mention is that for a triple expansion engine to run properly it needs a condenser to create a vacuum. The steam entering the low pressure cylinders(s) should be somewhere around 0 psi (atmospheric).
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Chris, congratulations on first, first run. looking great.
Mike, something that Chris did not mention is that for a triple expansion engine to run properly it needs a condenser to create a vacuum. The steam entering the low pressure cylinders(s) should be somewhere around 0 psi (atmospheric).
Hi Charles,
I cannot totally agree with that - a lot depends on the engine design and its input pressures. The Holly pumping engine I did the model of is one example - when originally built, it did not have any condenser, that was added years later to increase its efficiency. I've got a number of books that give specs on the steam pressure entering each cylinder in triple expansion engines, and they still spec pressures in the 15 to 25 psi range (above atmospheric) entering the LP cylinder, and they give an average of about 25 or 26 inches of vacuum due to the condenser. The navy engines like this one ran at around 250 psi inlet steam to the HP, and typically lost about 50 or 60% of the pressure at each stage. The condenser is not required to run properly for ALL compound engine designs, it does increase the power efficiency dramatically though. Also for the ship it allowed recycling the water to the boilers.
One other example - the Titanic. The pressure out of the triple expansion engines was still enough to run a turbine that drove the center prop in conjunction with the condenser:
(https://www.titanicology.com/Titanica/TitanicsPrimeMover_files/image021.jpg)
Chris
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Great to see it run proper for the first time :praise2: :pinkelephant: :whoohoo:
I understand why you are VERY happy now + thank for sharing :cheers:
Per
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Great to see it run proper for the first time :praise2: :pinkelephant: :whoohoo:
I understand why you are VERY happy now + thank for sharing :cheers:
Per
Thanks Per! Still grinning!
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Great job Chris!! Warms my heart to see that baby running for the first time
Your spot on about the engine Thermodynamics, Yes MOST compounds and Triples were designed to run with a condenser, to improve they're steam consumption and overall power, it was not a forgone conclusion, and many compounds were designed to run atmospheric. (Stuart 6A for instance)
It gets back to cylinder ratios ( D2/d2) and steam cut off at each stage of the expansion.
Check out "The Thermodynamics of the Steam Engine" by CH Pebody. Great book.
My compound was modelled as condensing and with 14 equations and 14 unknowns a series of simple equations can be solved simultaneously to get the pressure in each cylinder as well as the receiver sufficient to create a PV diagram of the engine, and estimate the indicated HP. With a triple expansion there are an additional 7 unknowns so 21 equations.....with a spreadsheet, it easy enough.
With THAT triple, a condenser would be required, and with compressed air, you may need to run with the cylinder drain valves open, or perhaps with a starting valves open.putting a little "Live air" into the receivers ...to keep it from over expanding. and getting "lumpy" when it's running....but that's pretty easy....
Dave
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https://archive.org/details/thermodynamicsof004310mbp/page/168/mode/2up
Start on page 168....it's a good read!
Dave
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Great link Dave, I'll give it a look, will be interesting to run the numbers on the Sabino, Holly, and Ohio engines.
Thanks!!
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Great link Dave, I'll give it a look, will be interesting to run the numbers on the Sabino, Holly, and Ohio engines.
Thanks!!
I did that for Sabino. 3/4 cut off both cylinders with a cylinder ratio of 4 (14**2/7**2) I had a hard time getting a good idea of the receiver volume, but with my engine,, and per Pebody, I made the volume of the receiver equal to the LP cylinder volume.
It worked so well on Sabino, I used it on my engine, though I ran without any exhaust lap, which helps the smaller engines.
Dave
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Great, that will be a good test to see if I understand the math and get the same result.
:ThumbsUp:
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https://archive.org/details/thermodynamicsof004310mbp/page/168/mode/2up
Start on page 168....it's a good read!
Dave
Same book, cleaner scan. No hands holding down the pages. :)
https://archive.org/details/thermodynamicss03peabgoog/page/170/mode/2up
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https://archive.org/details/thermodynamicsof004310mbp/page/168/mode/2up (https://archive.org/details/thermodynamicsof004310mbp/page/168/mode/2up)
Start on page 168....it's a good read!
Dave
Same book, cleaner scan. No hands holding down the pages. :)
https://archive.org/details/thermodynamicss03peabgoog/page/170/mode/2up (https://archive.org/details/thermodynamicss03peabgoog/page/170/mode/2up)
Nice! :ThumbsUp:
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Realized that I hadn't posted a overall view of the engine recently, here are a couple shots of what its looking like:
(https://i.postimg.cc/yxSq81kR/IMG-4058.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/F1tMfMLB/IMG-4059.jpg)
This morning I did another minor tweek on the upper valve to even out the strokes, pretty happy with it now. When running on lower throttle so slower, it won't quite carry itself around past the TDC/BDC points with one cylinder, but if I push down with a finger on one of the LP crossheads (alternating which one on up/down strokes of HP) it will keep running, so when the rest of the cylinders are on it looks like it will tick over nicely. :cartwheel:
Well, on to the IP cylinder then! Did some quick measurements and calculations for the depth of the cut to seat the vertical support column on it, bolted it onto the faceplate (the hole patterns were already there from turning the OD on each cylinder), and set up on the vertical rotary table on the mill. There is a disc on the end of the cylinder to let the tailstock help support it.
(https://i.postimg.cc/3wKHFQcM/IMG-4052.jpg)
Nibbled out the slot for the column and got two holes drilled/tapped to hold it in place. The holes just go a few threads in, enough to hold for soldering.
(https://i.postimg.cc/hjYWnzPg/IMG-4055.jpg)
Then got out a mini end mill and cut the slots so the lower stay rod bracket will fit in, matching the height of the one on the HP column
(https://i.postimg.cc/R0XxPpkW/IMG-4057.jpg)
Good snug fit, when time to solder I'll stake the side of the slot to keep it from wiggling around as the flux bubbles off
(https://i.postimg.cc/W3zLx6VX/IMG-4056.jpg)
Next time I'll start in on similar slots for the other three stay rod brackets.
I've got more boat stuff this weekend, so probaly not much more in the way of updates for a few days. :cheers:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Excellent start on the next cylinder, Chris! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
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Thanks guys!
A little more playtime in the shop this afternoon got the rest of the stay rod bracket slots milled in, as well as the two brackets needed for the other feet. These brackets were all made up at the same time as the ones for the HP cylinder, so it was just a matter of milling in the slots for them.
(https://i.postimg.cc/XXSDQ9xH/IMG-4061.jpg)
Need to check the plans again to be sure, but I think the parts are ready for silver soldering together. The odd looking framework you see in the foreground is the base for the steam chest. After soldering, the angled pieces on the side will be trimmed off flush with the wider ones running vertically in the picture, and the steam chest will bolt to this framework. Unlike most steam engines we do, the passages run around the ends of the cylinder rather than through the cylinder side wall, so no need to have a pressure tight base, which makes this construction a lot easier. On the original engine, all that was case in one piece with the passages in place. Having the steam chest as a separate piece will make cutting in the passages a lot easier too, can do all that in the mill vise. Also, the steam chest is actually taller than the cylinder, it hangs down below the bottom of the cylinder, is even at the top. More on all that in a few days...
:cheers:
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Been absentt for a while and man you have been busy. Awesome results seeing it run on one cylinder. Just awesome work Chris….did I say ……..I…………….likeeeeeee……. :Love:
:cheers:
Don
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Been absentt for a while and man you have been busy. Awesome results seeing it run on one cylinder. Just awesome work Chris….did I say ……..I…………….likeeeeeee……. :Love:
:cheers:
Don
Great to hear from you again Don! :cheers:
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Another fun trip this weekend, i went down to Baltimore to take a day cruise on the WW-II Liberty Ship Jown W Brown. All original boilers and triple expansion steam engine, including the steering engine (big brother to the one of Michaels that I did the model of last year). Super day, boarded in early morning and the cruise went up Chesapeake Bay and back, about 6 hours. I spent most of it down in the engine room! I took lots of pictures and lots of video, still need to sort through the videos and get them posted, will put up some of them later on.
Here is the ship:
(https://i.postimg.cc/x1xk4nLV/IMG-4874a.jpg)
As soon as I got on deck, I saw rows of the steam powered winches on deck that they used for moving cargo, took a lot of detail pics of those for possible future projects...
(https://i.postimg.cc/cCytBhwK/IMG-4877a.jpg)
Then saw the sign pointing down to the engine room, and zoomed down there. Here is the top level around the cylinder blocks
(https://i.postimg.cc/nLXs8g1j/IMG-4902a.jpg)
down at the middle level where the reverse links are. They have a reversing engine powering the links back and forth - got some of that on video to show later
(https://i.postimg.cc/T2gD38vn/IMG-4912a.jpg)
and down at the lower level with the crankshaft
(https://i.postimg.cc/Sszz932F/IMG-4956a.jpg)
Oh, and there was a cruise going on too, wandered around on deck and the upper levels too!
(https://i.postimg.cc/SR62T9fg/IMG-5190a.jpg)
Did a lot of chatting with the engineers (well, loud talking over the sounds of the boiler fans and the feed pumps!) Its an all-volunteer crew, super friendly and helpful. I asked one about the steering engine, and later in the day he spotted me and invited me back to the stern compartment where the steering engine is (not in an area we could normally tour). Got a quick video of that, didn't get to spend much time there since the captain and chief engineer were sorting out a problem with it. Found out later there was no problem, it was the helmsman doing something wrong, I don't know what. Unlike the one Michael has, this one is right by the rudder quadrant, and is connected to the wheel in the pilothouse by hydraulics.
So, videos later!
Chris
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Sounds like a great trip! Great pics of the ship. Look forward to the videos. :cheers:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Sounds like a great trip! Great pics of the ship. Look forward to the videos. :cheers:
Great time there, I highly recommend a trip to it. They are expecting next cruise in May, before they go into the shipyard for their every-5-year inspections, may not have a fall cruise next year, back to full schedule the year after.
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Last bits getting done before silver soldering up the IP cylinder. The top end of the steam chest base needs to be flush with the top of the cylinder, so easiest way to fill in that gap was to mill off the flange edge to two flats
(https://i.postimg.cc/wjfVQKv7/IMG-4062.jpg)
and screw on some filler pieces. These will be milled flush after soldering
(https://i.postimg.cc/K8vfTcm6/IMG-4063.jpg)
Ready for soldering - the brackets for the horizontal stay rods have been staked with a sharp punch, other parts have temp brass screws to hold them in place.
(https://i.postimg.cc/xTPgqNVG/IMG-4064.jpg)
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Looks like an awesome trip, Chris! Glad you got to visit the ship and share the pics with us :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Was it hard to mess up so many of those little hole's you'd drilled and tapped? :Lol:
Kim
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Looks like an awesome trip, Chris! Glad you got to visit the ship and share the pics with us :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Was it hard to mess up so many of those little hole's you'd drilled and tapped? :Lol:
Kim
I had not tapped all of them, just enough to get it on the faceplate, so only was cutting through the holes. This whole sequence is being partly figured out as I go! Just got a round of the soldering done, had to switch to my biggest torch partway in since it wasn't getting hot enough. The brass is still so thick that its like doing a big boiler. Will get it cleaned up and see how well the solder flowed, may need another round on the brackets.
:cheers:
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You had a nice weekend.
I would have liked to have been there.
We are looking forward to more pictures or a video.
Greetings Michael
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Got some of the video clips picked out and put together into one video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhUnAOgTPTU
Towards the end it shows the reversing engine in use as we were coming back into the pier. Its a single cylinder engine with a large flywheel that doubles as a hand wheel, so they can move it by hand to fine tune the position plus start it if it had stopped on top or bottom center. The reverse engine turns a big gear with a rod back to the reverse links. Also, at one spot you can see a couple of the engineers reaching into the crank web as it goes around to test temperature and oiling! At the very end is a quick clip of the steering engine - was not able to stay there long, the captain and chief engineer were a bit stressed out thinking something was wrong with it (there was not) so we had to leave. It was not in a compartment normally open to visitors. All in all an amazing day!
And the shop elves didn't seem too excited about the t-shirt that I brought back for them. Some muttering about size... :Lol:
(https://i.postimg.cc/L6gjfqPg/IMG-4066.jpg)
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Great stuff as always.
Ron
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Great video, Chris! Thanks for sharing.
Guess you'll just have to wear the t-shirt then, eh? ;D
Kim
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Elves ... ya just can't please 'em. Lock them in the coal bunker for a while and they will come around.
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That’s awesome Dog……. :Love:
Don
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That was an awesome video!
Very good timing as right now I'm in the middle of reading "Freedom's Forge" which talks about the USA ramping-up for wartime production and the Liberty Ships are featured prominently in the text. It's amazing how quickly they were able to assemble those ships back in the day.
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That was an awesome video!
Very good timing as right now I'm in the middle of reading "Freedom's Forge" which talks about the USA ramping-up for wartime production and the Liberty Ships are featured prominently in the text. It's amazing how quickly they were able to assemble those ships back in the day.
Very true, they didn't even have the shipyards when they started, and got the building going in a matter of months. Quite amazing.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: I got $1.25 that says Bucket Bob is wearing a red and green pinstripe jacket tomorrow, cut out of the condensor graphic on yer shirt. :Lol:
Really enjoyed the video! :cheers:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: I got $1.25 that says Bucket Bob is wearing a red and green pinstripe jacket tomorrow, cut out of the condensor graphic on yer shirt. :Lol:
Really enjoyed the video! :cheers:
You just HAD to give him that idea... :hammerbash: Now I have to go back for another cruise next year and get another shirt! :cartwheel:
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The soldering yesterday worked out well, so some cleanup of screw heads and such on the mill, and got the steam chest base trimmed out flat:
(https://i.postimg.cc/WpFsRyHr/IMG-4067.jpg)
Ready to start boring the inside.
(https://i.postimg.cc/FFMNhxM6/IMG-4070.jpg)
After the experience gained doing the HP cylinder, and noting how the IP cylinder rings like a bell when tapped, going to try something on the setup this time. Rather than just adding enough blocks to counterbalance the added parts on the outside, I'm going to add more around the circumference to increase the total weight and see if that changes the resonant frequency down. Also will again add some weight onto the boring bar, that worked last time. I had noticed on the HP cylinder that as the bar was advanced down the length of the bore, that at certain points it would ring more and cause chatter marks. That makes me think it was hitting the points where the resonance waves lined up, it will be interesting to see how adding more blocks on the outside changes that behavior. Can't hurt! I've got a number of large hose clamps that I'll use to wrap the blocks with.
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I'm looking forward to your experiments and experiences because I'll soon be drilling out a large, thin-walled cylinder.
Michael
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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I'm looking forward to your experiments and experiences because I'll soon be drilling out a large, thin-walled cylinder.
Michael
I set up the cylinder on faceplate with a bunch of scrap blocks of brass on it, held with hose clamps, and tapping on it shows the resonance is at a much lower pitch now. Balanced it out pretty well. I took some test cuts with my longer boring bars, 1/2" diameter, and it still showed a lot of rining/chatter. Then advanced it all the way in to cut back the recess in the plexi spacer on the faceplate, and same thing there, which makes me think that its in the boring bar itself, given how far it has to be extended to reach the bottom of the hole. So, going to make up a block to clamp to the boring bar to up its diameter and see what that does. Also have ordered a larger diameter boring bar, will have that Thursday.
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my moto.. "If in doubt buy tools"
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my moto.. "If in doubt buy tools"
:ThumbsUp:
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I did some quick and dirty tests - clamped a steel block to the side of the boring bar, full length of what was overhanging from the toolpost. That cleared up the chatter, so I am very hopeful that the new larger bars I ordered will do the trick. The overhang is extra long since it has to go the length of the cylinder, plus get past the support column end, about 4.5" overall. Only thing I'll need to do is modify one of the QCTP holders for the extra diameter, or just make a solid block to clamp it to the cross slide.
Given that its just an extra day away, and I am getting together with friends for much of tomorrow, I'll just wait for the new boring bar rather than making up the clamp-on support.
:cheers:
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my moto.. "If in doubt buy tools"
:ThumbsUp:
:ROFL: :lolb: :ROFL:
OK - OK - I was thinking that a 1/2" Boring Bar is on the slim side for such a long/deep hole - mine is happy up to almost 70mm. ~ 2.75" sticking out of the holder - but forget more ....
ARGHH - now I also need a new Tool :hammerbash: :P
Per :cheers:
ps still enjoying your build Chris :praise2:
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my moto.. "If in doubt buy tools"
:ThumbsUp:
:ROFL: :lolb: :ROFL:
OK - OK - I was thinking that a 1/2" Boring Bar is on the slim side for such a long/deep hole - mine is happy up to almost 70mm. ~ 2.75" sticking out of the holder - but forget more ....
ARGHH - now I also need a new Tool :hammerbash: :P
Per :cheers:
ps still enjoying your build Chris :praise2:
Thanks Per! Good to know, thats about what I have been able to do in the past. I actually ordered two bars, one 3/4" and one 1" diameter. Got a start on an adapeter to hold the 3/4" bar, will try that first. If not quite enough I can bore it out to fit the larger one.
:cheers:
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Your boring bar is going to be bigger than your lathe, Chris! :lolb:
Kim
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Your boring bar is going to be bigger than your lathe, Chris! :lolb:
Kim
Your point? :lolb: Glad I got the long-bed version of the Sherline, the bar is a foot long. :o
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Wouldn't be the first time a boring bar got bolted to the next machine over, or onto the floor! :Lol:
That's what happens when you call Sherline and say "Gimme the BIG DAWG" :Lol:
(with my luck they'd ship a Shopsy's foot long bratwurst - without mustard) :shrug:
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Wouldn't be the first time a boring bar got bolted to the next machine over, or onto the floor! :Lol:
That's what happens when you call Sherline and say "Gimme the BIG DAWG" :Lol:
(with my luck they'd ship a Shopsy's foot long bratwurst - without mustard) :shrug:
Always fun to walk into a railroad shop, and see machines big enough to chuck and spin my whole shop ROOM! When working on my Shay and Marion models, the frames extended down the mill table, across to the lathe, and sat on the lathe cross slide.
The biggest drill bit I have is about 4 feet long, to drill ramrod holes in flintlock long rifle stocks.
As for big dogs, my mothers second German shepherd was the biggest, she could walk up and rest her chin on the table without reaching up. Her father was huge, over 150 pounds, all muscle from following the tractor around the farm all day and herding cows.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :cheers:
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Great job on the second cylinder.
I know the feeling about having to buy more tools, it just seems as I get started on another part there is something needed to complete the job. There must be a time when I can complete a model without buying more tools, materials yes but tools no :LittleDevil:
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The new toys, um, tools, yeah, tools :D are due in tomorrow, so in the meantime I got the holder made for the 3/4" diameter one (the tool holders I have go up to 1/2") Started with a piece of roundbar, bored an off center hole, milled notches to fit the holder, and added some set screws:
(https://i.postimg.cc/NjZgp9T3/IMG-4072.jpg)
Also started making up sets of the piston rod glands that I'll be needing for the next three cylinders. All are the same, and will bolt into place in the bottom caps. On this engine, the original design used separately made glands that bolted onto the bottom of the cylinder castings, so I am doing the same. Only difference is that I am using o-rings rather than whatever packing they used. Here is the first one, all are turned to shape and drilled, still need to tap the bolt holes:
(https://i.postimg.cc/GpYbNLxH/IMG-4073.jpg)
Good place to break for the day!
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Very nice boring bar holder! So, this is for the 3/4" one?
You could make it have a 1" bore and then have a sleeve to bring it down to 3/4". That way you could use the same holder for either of your new boring bars.
Kim
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Very nice boring bar holder! So, this is for the 3/4" one?
You could make it have a 1" bore and then have a sleeve to bring it down to 3/4". That way you could use the same holder for either of your new boring bars.
Kim
Good idea! :ThumbsUp:
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While waiting on the boring bars, which are out for delivery so probably will have them this afternoon, got a couple other small tasks finished. Got the holes in the piston rod glands tapped:
(https://i.postimg.cc/6Q06XdQF/IMG-4076.jpg)
and got the lower ends of the remaining three piston rods made up. They are turned down to fit through the crossheads, and threaded on the bottom for large nuts to hold them in place:
(https://i.postimg.cc/3RfKyYmB/IMG-4074.jpg)
Makes a nice moving linear forest up top!
(https://i.postimg.cc/LX896nY5/IMG-4075.jpg)
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Hoping your new boring bars land soon, and land at low velocity. :Lol: :cheers:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Hoping your new boring bars land soon, and land at low velocity. :Lol: :cheers:
Placed on the porch, not aimed at it! :Lol:
The 1" bar arrived, the 3/4" one must have come from a different warehouse since it was shipped separately. Still say it is arriving today, at local depot, but they don't have it shown as out for delivery. May not get here today, don't know. But, at least the upgrade kit for my Prusa 3d printer has finally shipped, to turn it into a Mk4 version, better, faster, all around morer gooder... :Lol: They got delayed when they realized that not all the Mk3 printers they sold had the same minor parts, like power supplies. How they didnt know that boggles the mind. Caused a month or two delay. Sigh.
Anyway, since I only had made up the holder for the 3/4" bar, no new progress on the cylinder boring. :shrug:
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Grrrr... Amazon sat on the package at the local depot all day. :Argue: Time to unleash some angry hungover hungry ninja shop gnomes...
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I pity the
fools staff at your Amazoon depot when the gnomes arrive tomorrow. Hope they don't drive the Mann steam truck through the loading dock doors again. :Lol:
Just kiddin around, hope you get the 19.05 mm bar soon, in good order. :cheers:
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just tell the gnomes you were getting them a "bar" :cheers:
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Well, hard to tell WHEN its going to arrive. They still list it as processing at the local depot, usually by this time of day its listed as out for delivery. May need to prep another batch of ninja gnomes and a couple squirrels...
Couldn't do much with it right at the moment anyway, just got back from eye exam with dilated pupils so close vision is all goofy for a while. And of course its a bright sunny day so even with sunglasses it was a fun drive home!
I'm sure if I take the time to start modifying the holder for the 1" bar I do have, that it will show up halfway through... :Jester:
EDIT: Huh - they must read this forum, the gnome/squirrel threat worked and they are now out for delivery! :LittleDevil: Still sending the gnomes... :LittleDevil: :LittleDevil:
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I've got a package of screws that's been sitting in Babylon NY awaiting "Acceptance" since Sept. 5th. I called the seller on the 18th, he's sending replacements.
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Maybe the Gnomes will take the steam shovel and create some artsy holes in their walls. :cartwheel: :cartwheel:
Ron
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I've got a package of screws that's been sitting in Babylon NY awaiting "Acceptance" since Sept. 5th. I called the seller on the 18th, he's sending replacements.
Sounds like its still under the bench where they box them up! :ShakeHead:
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Maybe the Gnomes will take the steam shovel and create some artsy holes in their walls. :cartwheel: :cartwheel:
Ron
I like that idea! During the day the delivery timeframe has moved out, now 8 to 10 pm. :killcomputer:
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As usual the tracking details were off (common to every carrier) as to time - they were last saying 8:30 to 10:00pm, so it showed up at 7:00pm. Better than next tuesday!
So, I sent the elves out with their trailer to get it. They kept throwing pretzels in front of Rocky to get him to keep pulling! :Lol:
(https://i.postimg.cc/qBLZsVXd/IMG-4077.jpg)
A quick wipe down to get rid of the packing grease, and tested it in the holder I made the other day:
(https://i.postimg.cc/vZ1qw1RQ/IMG-4078.jpg)
All good there, so started making some test passes with it. Got a workable speed (slow) and depth (shallow) combination worked out that gives a decent finish, even with the initial interrupted cut since the base hole was done with a hole saw so it was a little off center and rough:
(https://i.postimg.cc/PrV37WR3/IMG-4079.jpg)Thats a MUCH better finish than I was able to get with the 1/2" boring bar! :cartwheel:
One thing I noticed the other day that I'll have to deal with is that the support column end winds up overlapping the bore slightly (and in this picture you can see better where the bore is still rough from the hole saw down the far end in the bottom and left):
(https://i.postimg.cc/8PzXwKtf/IMG-4080.jpg)
From the pictures of the boring bar I was not sure how the tip of the cutter would extend beyond the shank of the bar, or I would have done some milling on the inside upper edge of the column already. Now that I know how much to remove, I'll take care of that on the mill to give enough clearance so the bar wont hit as I get to final ID of the bore. For the two LP cylinders, now I know to take care of that before soldering up the parts. The setback on them will be larger since the diameter of the cylinder is greater, but the columns are in the same place. Not a big deal, but hard to predict ahead of time.
So, getting late in the day, I'll pick this up fresh tomorrow - nice to be back on track (and with two new toys, um, I mean new tools!) The 3/4" bar looks to be doing the job, I looked at the 1" bar and decided that it will need its own adapter, made from one more size up of roundbar, since enlarging the hole in this one would leave the walls too thin. Good project to do when waiting for paint to dry on this cylinder, and before the two LP ones. It will be interesting to see if there is any difference in how the 3/4 and 1" bars behave. Seems like there must be a rule of thumb (probably handfulls of them) for diameter of the bar vs overhang distance?
Thanks for watching along! :cheers:
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Did a little searching, and came across this article on boring bar overhang at the Sandvik website, quite a lot of great info once I found the diagram halfway down that said the 'BD' in their formulas is Bar Diameter of the boring bar:
https://www.sandvik.coromant.com/en-us/tools/tooling-systems/turning-centres-and-lathes/silent-tools/application-guide-silent-tools/turning-appl-guide
Given the information they have in it, sounds like the 3/4" bar I just tested is a little light still for the kind of production work they are talking about, but I can get away with it. The 1" bar would be better for the overhang I have on these parts. I'll definitely make up the holder for that bar soon!
:cheers: :cheers:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Glad the boring tools got there. I'll bet you're happy you got a 28 lb bag of pretzels at your last grocery run. :Lol:
Sandvik's cutting tool guides are a fantastic resource, I used them in the day job many times years ago. They cover a lot of the planning the job and tooling, and machine parameters for boring. You do have to keep in mind that the numbers / factors are often based on taking the absolute max cu in per minute of metal out, in high production metal cutting in industry on super rigid high horsepower machine tools. The section on bar resonance and chatter reduction will likely be easily applicable though. Hope so! :cheers:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Glad the boring tools got there. I'll bet you're happy you got a 28 lb bag of pretzels at your last grocery run. :Lol:
Sandvik's cutting tool guides are a fantastic resource, I used them in the day job many times years ago. They cover a lot of the planning the job and tooling, and machine parameters for boring. You do have to keep in mind that the numbers / factors are often based on taking the absolute max cu in per minute of metal out, in high production metal cutting in industry on super rigid high horsepower machine tools. The section on bar resonance and chatter reduction will likely be easily applicable though. Hope so! :cheers:
And it does take some careful reading since they do bounce between numbers for normal tools and the high end exotic ones they are promoting. Still, good basic info!
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I don't think the Sandvik people are anticipating a 30# lathe for their recommended speeds and feeds. :) I have a very similar 3/4" boring bar for my South Bend 10K lathe and it's my opinion for that lathe going any bigger would be a waste of time. Not enough rigidity in the lathe itself to take advantage of a bigger bar.
In the future, you might want to experiment with a different carbide insert. It looks like you are using a 32.52 CCMT in that bar but you might want to try a 32.52 CCGT insert, the difference being the first insert is molded tolerance while the second insert is also ground, shiny and has a much sharper cutting edge, similar to HSS which greatly reduces the cutting pressure. The CCMT/CCGT 32.52 is my go-to insert, and I always have one holder loaded with a CCMT for steel and another loaded with a CCGT for aluminum or brass. Furious vs non-furious metals. :D
The 32.51 inserts have a slightly smaller nose radius than the 32.52's. It's common to see the CCGT's as 32.51 and the CCMT as 32.52, but it's not set in stone.
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I don't think the Sandvik people are anticipating a 30# lathe for their recommended speeds and feeds. :) I have a very similar 3/4" boring bar for my South Bend 10K lathe and it's my opinion for that lathe going any bigger would be a waste of time. Not enough rigidity in the lathe itself to take advantage of a bigger bar.
In the future, you might want to experiment with a different carbide insert. It looks like you are using a 32.52 CCMT in that bar but you might want to try a 32.52 CCGT insert, the difference being the first insert is molded tolerance while the second insert is also ground, shiny and has a much sharper cutting edge, similar to HSS which greatly reduces the cutting pressure. The CCMT/CCGT 32.52 is my go-to insert, and I always have one holder loaded with a CCMT for steel and another loaded with a CCGT for aluminum or brass. Furious vs non-furious metals. :D
The 32.51 inserts have a slightly smaller nose radius than the 32.52's. It's common to see the CCGT's as 32.51 and the CCMT as 32.52, but it's not set in stone.
Hi Krypto,
Correct, that bar came with a CCMT32.52 insert. Thats something that I have not learned yet, what all the different letters and numbers mean, still find it very confusing. Some of the older tools/inserts I have used different letter/number schemes than when I went to buy more inserts for them (spread over about 15 years and several different brands), which didn't help. I've noticed, as you point out, that the tips I have with a smaller radius perform quite differently than the larger radius tips, probably more so on my little lathe.
Getting the CCGT inserts is easy to do. Is the CCGT vs CCMT that I need, or the 3251 vs 3252, or the combination? I think the 1 vs 2 at the end denotes the radius, is that right? And if I read you right, the G vs M indicates the extra grinding/sharpening?
Another question - is it worth trying to adjust that radius with a small diamond stone, or would I be opening myself up for more grief?
Thanks very much for the information - there are SO many options on inserts, and each manufacturer does things a little different and describes them differently!
:cheers:
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For the work I've seen you do, I would recommend only using the CCGT 32.51 or CCGT 32.52 inserts with your lathe. These are the shiny, ground inserts. As you said, the 1 vs 2 is the radius of the tip, with "1" being more pointy, less tool pressure while the "2" is a greater radius, perhaps better finish.
I think all the CCGT inserts I have are 32.51, but it wouldn't hurt to try both the CCGT 32.51 and 32.52 and see which works best.
I usually buy my inserts straight from China, but maybe you don't want to wait. I've used both of these vendors before, if nothing else the pictures might help you with your own retailer:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/155722889077?hash=item2441ceb775:g:K7YAAOSwj5VkIq5u
https://www.ebay.com/itm/265633537378?hash=item3dd8fe1d62:g:G~QAAOSw5udfxgtt
Don't want to use carbide? You can buy AR Warner HSS tips for your boring bar in both the 32.51 & 32.52 nose radius. Perhaps more friendly for custom grinding the nose radius than carbide:
https://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=3575&category=-1550042347
Carbide can be confusing. Early-on I standardized on the CCMT 32.52 (and CCGT 32.51) inserts for the lathe, so all my turning tools and boring bars use that. I even have a face mill that uses the unused sides of the insert. Eventually I needed a smaller boring bar, so I got a very nice solid carbide bar that uses the CCGT/CCMT 21.51 size. Things quickly spiraled out-of-control after that, and now I think I have a whole drawer of various inserts for lathe and milling tools. :LittleDevil:
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Great explanation Krypto, thanks very much!!
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This morning I got the support column inside edge trimmed back on the mill to clear the boring bar, and then decided to see if I could rig up the 1" bar somehow. It turns (pun intended) out that the vise in the turntable works out a good height and bolts down solid:
(https://i.postimg.cc/cL8tf3tt/IMG-4082.jpg)
Definitely a difference from the 3/4" to the 1" boring bar with this long an overhang, though not as huge a difference as there was from the original 1/2" bar. Getting a decent finish on the cuts, though I want to take a little time to balance the cylinder better so I can have a slightly higher speed on the motor, still getting some shake to the table so it needs another couple ounces to balance it out. A few experiments with the stick on weights should do the job, then I can start boring the cylinder to size.
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That's quite the creative boring bar holder, Chris! ;D :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Simple is good!
Kim
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That's quite the creative boring bar holder, Chris! ;D :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Simple is good!
Kim
Thanks Kim! Its working out quite well, I have the bore taken out to the point where the hole saw marks are just gone, and getting a smooth finish. Thought it was a good time to test out the other new toy, err, tool that I got a couple weeks ago, a dial bore gauge, to see how well the headstock is aligned. When doing the HP cylinder I had to re-align the headstock (which swivels on the Sherline for doing tapers) to get the bore parallel all the way down the length. The new gauge registers directly inside the bore, giving a relative diameter down the length as I move it. Initial test shows it was off slightly, so I'm doing some experiments and making notes on which way to swivel the headstock and by how much to get rid of a given error. Great learning!
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Now you're cookin on the boring! re the table shake - just a thought - did you snug up the gibs under the carriage while using the long overhang bar at all? that might account for some table shake if they're loose at all. :cheers:
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Said bore gauge after getting the headstock alignment tweaked in. Took a couple adjustments moving the end of the cylinder out a thou at a time, taking a light pass, and measuring again. That told me how much to move it which direction to get it aligned properly, did that, and it worked! Same reading all the way down the bore, without having to remove the faceplate, put on the chuck, take cuts on another piece, and replace the faceplate hoping that it would go on exactly the same as it came off. Quite happy with the new toy!
(https://i.postimg.cc/X7ZYPycj/IMG-4083.jpg)
It has a dial at the end that has ticks every half a thou in both directions from wherever the zero is set to
(https://i.postimg.cc/0yD2kRBh/IMG-4084.jpg)
Other end has a changeable end assembly and a set of different length tips, to handle the range of bores from 0.7" to 6". the little wheels guide it in the bore, actually measures between two tips in a straight line across the end.
(https://i.postimg.cc/zX9GYX0n/IMG-4085.jpg)
I'd seen these tools on a couple other threads, and it made sense to invest in one for a set of cylinders this large. For a short/narrow cylinder, probably not worth it as much.
So, with the cutting speeds/depths figured out and the headstock trued up, next time I'll get the cylinder bored out the rest of the way! Thanks again to all those watching along and helping me learn - always more to learn in this hobby!
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Now you're cookin on the boring! re the table shake - just a thought - did you snug up the gibs under the carriage while using the long overhang bar at all? that might account for some table shake if they're loose at all. :cheers:
Yes - had done that, tightened the gibs on both directions on the cross slide, as well as the backlash adjustment on the feedscrew. I took the drive belt off the motor so the headstock would spin freely, and as suspected it would rotate so the same spot was down all the time, from a dead stop. That told me where the heavy side was, added 8 stick on wheel weights to the other side, and it balanced evenly. Belt back on, and it would spin quite a bit faster without the shake.
:cheers:
Great. Now the shop elves want milk shakes... :Lol:
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Nice! That bore gauge is a pretty neat new tool! If I did lots of big bores, I might get me one of those! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Kim
PS People may refer to me as a big bore myself but I'm not sure a bore gauge would help with that! :lolb:
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Nice! That bore gauge is a pretty neat new tool! If I did lots of big bores, I might get me one of those! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Kim
PS People may refer to me as a big bore myself but I'm not sure a bore gauge would help with that! :lolb:
People also say its good to have character. Its also important to be one! :Jester:
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(https://i.postimg.cc/zX9GYX0n/IMG-4085.jpg)
Do you have a dawg to go with that junkyard strapped to the cylinder?? :lolb:
Gene
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(https://i.postimg.cc/zX9GYX0n/IMG-4085.jpg)
Do you have a dawg to go with that junkyard strapped to the cylinder?? :lolb:
Gene
A purebred champion, thats an expensive brass junkyard! :ROFL:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :Lol:
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And there was much rejoicing!
(https://i.postimg.cc/Bb5XnjNL/IMG-4086.jpg)
The IP cylinder is bored out to size, nice smooth finish from the 1" boring bar! :cartwheel: :whoohoo:
Then screwed the bottom cap in place and checked that the center hole is centered properly for the piston rod, it is:
(https://i.postimg.cc/mgphkf3w/IMG-4087.jpg)
Here is the cylinder with the counterweights all removed (for the LP cylinder, going to try the initial cuts without so much extra mass, just balance weights, and see how it behaves - see how much of the chatter was the cylinder ringing like a bell and how much was the too-small-boring-bar).
(https://i.postimg.cc/tg1JVS2H/IMG-4089.jpg)
Oh, and as you can see, the shop elves had already run their little Zamboni around and gathered up all the brass powder! :Jester:
Took the cylinder off the faceplate, and double-checked the bore from both ends, both measure same as close as I can tell, thats a big win for the bore gauge. :cartwheel: In this picture you can see the extra fill-in pieces that I had added to the top of the steam chest base frame, those leftover holes will get filled in, and new ones running out from the outer edges to the steam chest base when that is added on. The top cap will also be extended to span this area, like it was on the HP cylinder since the steam passage is in the top cap not in the cylinder itself on this engine.
(https://i.postimg.cc/mr0D3Y51/IMG-4090.jpg)
Then, the elves and I got the end caps on and bolted the cylinder to the engine.
(https://i.postimg.cc/KzBY016q/IMG-4092.jpg)
The piston rod runs smoothly through the gland, which means the cylinder self-aligns to the engine when the column is bolted down. Another big win! :cartwheel:
(https://i.postimg.cc/hvnt6SgS/IMG-4094.jpg)
A view from the other side
(https://i.postimg.cc/5ym2MZN8/IMG-4095.jpg)
And the parts for the other cylinders, still waiting for their turn
(https://i.postimg.cc/PfbxZ8zN/IMG-4096.jpg)
So, as you can probably tell, quite happy here! :wine1:
Still a bunch to do on this cylinder: make the steam chest base, sides, cover, and valve, make the front legs to support the cylinder on the posts, make the piston head, extend the top cap to add the steam passage, make the steam passage for the bottom end, finish making up another big batch of studs, make the pipe flanges for the side of the steam chest, make the pipes to connect to the exhaust of the HP cylinder, add the starting valve, get the valve connected up to the reverse links, and see if it actually runs on the IP cylinder! Just a few things, the elves should have it knocked out by dinner time! :stickpoke: :Jester:
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Nice progress, Chris! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn:
I know I've said this before, but Wow, That's going to be one massive engine!
Kim
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Nice progress, Chris! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn:
I know I've said this before, but Wow, That's going to be one massive engine!
Kim
Thanks Kim!
Definitely a two person mover!
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More beautiful every time I see it!
Dave
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Amazing progress Chris, everything is looking great!
Dave
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Thanks Dave & Dave!
This is another major milestone on this engine, a bunch of things all coming together. Nice fluffy laurels to rest on! :Lol:
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The engine is extremely impressive already! When it's completed and running it will be phenomenal.
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The engine is extremely impressive already! When it's completed and running it will be phenomenal.
Thanks! I'm hoping it will be!
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While sitting and admiring the progress, not wanting to start cutting any more metal for the day, I got out my plans for the steam chest/valve plus my copy of the old Naval Machinery book to refresh my memory on how the double-ported slide valves work since I've never made one before.
Looking at the diagrams in the book, and comparing them to the plan sheets I had printed out from the CAD model, things were looking oddly spaced. Got out the original plans I had gotten from Steamer ( :cheers: ) and realized why the CAD drawing looked odd. On the original engine they had extra rows of what I thought were ports, but were actually openings for getting at the stay bolts between the faces. I had cconnected up the two adjacent rows of ports in the CAD model when I should have been skipping over one and using the outer ports in each set. Whoops! No wonder I was having a hard time picturing the flows in my head!
Here is the picture from the book, side view on left and top view on right:
(https://i.postimg.cc/rmVfy4q3/Ports-from-book.jpg)
Here is a section view through the valve slider and the port face in the steam chest:
(https://i.postimg.cc/K8KSFd0B/Ports-Steam-Chest-Side-View.png)
Lotsa lines!
Here is a view of just the port face with the main chambers highlighted. The green lines show the passages from the steam chest ports on the left to the cylinder on the right, one set top, one set bottom. Also shown are the openings with the red arrows, these openings don't connect to anything, they are just there to access the stay bolt ends.
(https://i.postimg.cc/6QRk4CJQ/Ports-Side-View.png)
And here is a plan view of the port face - this is where I went down the rabbit hole when drawing the steam chest in CAD. The rows of ports in green are the pairs of openings to the cylinders. These are what I should have modelled in CAD as connecting to the cylinders. The two wider rows in red are the ones for the stay bolts, and the wide center row is the exhaust port. What I had done was connect the top/bottom TWO rows, one green, one red, and ignored the inner green rows. That would NOT have worked!
(https://i.postimg.cc/4xrC3B0M/Ports-Plan-View.png)So, some CAD time needed to re-draw the positions of two of the rows of ports and the connecting passages! Glad I caugth this one before cutting metal, then wondering why the pressure was just blowing past the valve both ends all the time! :zap: Another case where I could have made it as a normal single-ported D valve like usually done on models, and all would have been fine. But, I wanted to be faithful to the original, plus learning how double-ported valves worked.
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I congratulate you.
The next pot is ready.
Michael
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I congratulate you.
The next pot is ready.
Michael
Thanks Michael! :cheers:
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Chris, the slide valves are very interesting. I have to read through the function first.
It's probably important that the steam pressure doesn't put too much pressure on the slider.
Michael
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Chris, the slide valves are very interesting. I have to read through the function first.
It's probably important that the steam pressure doesn't put too much pressure on the slider.
Michael
On this engine there must have been a lot of pressure on the valves just because of the size, the slide valves were about 5 feet wide and tall! They had Lovekin valves on each one to help support the weight and also to dampen the motion as the reached top/bottom of the stroke. More on that later on. The dual porting allowed for a much greater volume to flow.
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A really complicated system.
The upper round piston should be connected to the condenser at the top. This also lifts the heavy slider.
In my picture there is the hole "t". There is also a connection to the condenser and the negative pressure relieves part of the surface of the slide. The steel springs are for sealing.
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A really complicated system.
The upper round piston should be connected to the condenser at the top. This also lifts the heavy slider.
In my picture there is the hole "t". There is also a connection to the condenser and the negative pressure relieves part of the surface of the slide. The steel springs are for sealing.
That upper piston is the Lovekin valve I mentioned. The Naval Machinery book has a great description of how it works, I'll be showing that later on. In the drawings for this engine I can see some flanges on the slider that may be the pressure reduction like you said, but I don't see any details on it, these drawings don't have a lot of that sort of small detail. For the model the Lovekin valve won't be functional, way too small and the weight is low enough not to need it.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Really great that the boring went well. The cylinder looks great! :cheers:
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Chris, the slide valves are very interesting. I have to read through the function first.
It's probably important that the steam pressure doesn't put too much pressure on the slider.
Michael
I was just taking another look at the original engine plans, and saw that there is what they call a 'relief ring' feature on the outside of the slide valve with a spring loaded tapered section to keep the seal. It doesn't show the pipe or valve on the steam chest cover but looks like they did balance the pressure on the slide valve.
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I've got the steam chest ports fixed in the CAD model and a new plan sheet generated. Worked out simple, just needed to drag the rows over to the proper position.
Todays playtime in the shop will be making up the little legs that go from the lower end of the cylinder to the vertical posts coming up from the engine bed. Got a template made, pics of parts later...
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Had to go back three pages to catch-up with your progress Chris! Really coming along and looking great!
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Had to go back three pages to catch-up with your progress Chris! Really coming along and looking great!
Thanks Ron, been a busy week!
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Hello Chris,
It is mentioned in the book that the valve is built with two steam openings to keep the valve stroke small. The eccentrics don't have to push the heavy slide back and forth as far.
Does that mean the stroke has to be smaller than the HP cylinder? Are all eccentrics in the engine with the same stroke?
Michael
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Hello Chris,
It is mentioned in the book that the valve is built with two steam openings to keep the valve stroke small. The eccentrics don't have to push the heavy slide back and forth as far.
Does that mean the stroke has to be smaller than the HP cylinder? Are all eccentrics in the engine with the same stroke?
Michael
All the eccentrics are the same size except for the one driving the pump at the end. The valve movement was around 10 inches on this engine. The two openings also increase the volume allowed through right at the start of the stroke.
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I've got the steam chest ports fixed in the CAD model and a new plan sheet generated. Worked out simple, just needed to drag the rows over to the proper position.
Todays playtime in the shop will be making up the little legs that go from the lower end of the cylinder to the vertical posts coming up from the engine bed. Got a template made, pics of parts later...
Got a start on the legs but not much done. Some friends stopped by, and my 3d printer upgrade kit arrived. :whoohoo: Fun distractions!
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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... my 3d printer upgrade kit arrived. :whoohoo: Fun distractions!
How fun! You'll have to let me know how you like your MK4 upgrade! I'm hoping to get it for Christmas ;D
Kim
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... my 3d printer upgrade kit arrived. :whoohoo: Fun distractions!
How fun! You'll have to let me know how you like your MK4 upgrade! I'm hoping to get it for Christmas ;D
Kim
Another day of printing parts needed. They supply two rolls of petg to print the plastic parts and the presliced files. One thing is that the spools are small, so the filament tends to jump off the sides and tangle, unlike the normal spools with wider flanges on the sides. Solved that by jumping ahead to fole 6 which is the filament guide!
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Are those pre-sliced files similar to the pre-stripped screws I find at my local hardware store? :Lol:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Are those pre-sliced files similar to the pre-stripped screws I find at my local hardware store? :Lol:
Those butter-soft phillps head screws? Hate those things! :cussing:
Fortunately no! For those who dont do 3d printing (I know CNR does and knows more about this already than I do), 'slicing' is the step to convert the CAD file to the print-ready file for the 3D printer, it generates the gcode that the printer uses.
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Back in the shop this morning, and got the bottom plates for the cylinder legs made, and then bored out some rod to make the blanks for the outer shells of the legs.
(https://i.postimg.cc/1tktVw49/IMG-4097.jpg)
Just like on the HP cylinder, these will get a flat bar insert to better mimic the shape of the original engine legs. Then over to the mill to cut the openings used on the originals to access the nuts/bolts
(https://i.postimg.cc/4yp36yhp/IMG-4098.jpg)
Using the card stock template I made, the angle between the upper and lower segments of the legs was measured, divided by 2, and the collet block set to that angle to mill the top ends of the lower shells. The big clamp on the collet holder is there so that I can take the holder out of the vise to insert the next part, and get it back to the same angle again easily.
(https://i.postimg.cc/qBKgVbZg/IMG-4099.jpg)
Here are the lower shells set in place on the end plates on the engine.
(https://i.postimg.cc/c4NCsRVh/IMG-4100.jpg)
I've started shaping the upper segments - the same angle was cut into one end of them, so now the tricky part of shaping the other ends of them to fit around the sides/bottom of the cylinder.
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... my 3d printer upgrade kit arrived. :whoohoo: Fun distractions!
How fun! You'll have to let me know how you like your MK4 upgrade! I'm hoping to get it for Christmas ;D
Kim
Another day of printing parts needed. They supply two rolls of petg to print the plastic parts and the presliced files. One thing is that the spools are small, so the filament tends to jump off the sides and tangle, unlike the normal spools with wider flanges on the sides. Solved that by jumping ahead to fole 6 which is the filament guide!
Ah... good tip to remember when I do it! :noidea:
Kim
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so now the tricky part of shaping the other ends of them to fit around the sides/bottom of the cylinder.
If it wasn't tricky it wouldn't be any fun :stickpoke:
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so now the tricky part of shaping the other ends of them to fit around the sides/bottom of the cylinder.
If it wasn't tricky it wouldn't be any fun :stickpoke:
True!
I looked back at how I did the ones on the hp cylinder, and went Oh yeah!
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Got the leg sections soldered up, and have started nibbling away at the upper face where it will meet the side of the cylinder. Part held on the rotary table with a vise clamped to the tooling plate. Distance was measured out from the center of the rotary table to set the part in the right place and to get the arc radius to match the cylinder.
(https://i.postimg.cc/VN9dWBkN/IMG-4102.jpg)
Taking it down in sections, will have to switch end mills to reach the bottom of the arc.
(https://i.postimg.cc/NMgLJ9Kk/IMG-4103.jpg)
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Wow! That's quite the setup, Chris! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
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One cylinder leg down, one to go! The distances/arc worked out great. The second one will get shaped the same, but then it needs to be notched on one side to fit against the side of the steam chest. They both need the round holes in the upper part of the legs like the one showing on the HP cylinder on the right.
(https://i.postimg.cc/fRWj6L15/IMG-4110.jpg)
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Now that cylinder's got a leg to stand on! :Lol:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Now that cylinder's got a leg to stand on! :Lol:
Its hopping with piwer! :Lol: The second leg is ready to cut the notch to fit around the steam chest, so tomorrow it should be sitting on two legs. :noidea:
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The second leg is cut to fit, cut openings in the upper segments, and attached the pads on the bottoms. The second one is notched to fit alongside the steam chest base, and I took a bit too much off there so it needs a patch to get a proper fit against the chest. That set of angles is tricky!
(https://i.postimg.cc/hPJnWH5d/IMG-4112.jpg)
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Gosh :praise2: Still enjoying and trying to keep up :old:
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Gosh :praise2: Still enjoying and trying to keep up :old:
Run faster! You've almost caught the wagon! :Lol:
No shop time this morning, been finishing the upgrade of my Prusa 3d printer to the new mk4 version. LOTS of time on it the last couple days, involved tearing it down to bare frame and adding all the new parts. Pretty impressed with the new version, they've used heavier parts in a lot of places, and made the cabling much simpler to do. Printing the first part now, a little hex driver handle for the shop elves.
New version is lots faster, finer resolution steppers,better user interface. I've got a cad model for a new rc submarine that I want to print. The slicer shows the parts will print about 3 times faster with same settings! First hull section in 6.5 hours vs 17.5 hours!
Planning on heading into the shop this afternoon, to do more on the cylinder legs.
:cheers:
EDIT: corrected time, its 6.5 vs 17.5 hours
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Wow! That Mk4 Sounds pretty promising! :ThumbsUp: ;D
How long was your lead time for the Mk4 upgrade kit?
Kim
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Wow! That Mk4 Sounds pretty promising! :ThumbsUp: ;D
How long was your lead time for the Mk4 upgrade kit?
Kim
I ordered it way back on April 4, they were taking pre-orders before it was ready to ship. It was delayed several weeks at the last minute when they realized they had several versions of the power supply and cables from the early mk3 printers, thats all sorted now and they are getting back to a more normal shipping schedule. The assembled printers say a 2-3 week lead time, for the assemble-it-yourself kit they are saying 4-5 weeks. For the Mk3 to Mk4 upgrade kits, they are saying they will not process new orders till sometime in November, they are buried in orders for the full printers and are adding more staff. If I was buying the printer new, I'd be really tempted to go with the pre-assembled one. More money, but the assembly is not easy. The manual is terrific, but there are a LOT of parts, its around a 3 day build at 4 hours per day.
First print is done, and the elves approve so I can make something for myself now. Its a keychain size holder for 4mm hex (Wiha) bits, handy for getting in tight quarters. Right now I'm printing a motor mount for a RC boat, then will start on the submarine parts.
(https://i.postimg.cc/vmngPsTz/IMG-4113.jpg)
This is the RC sub I'm going to print, I based it on the DeepFlight 2 minisub, though I changed the nose to look more like one of the old fighter jets. Due to the finished length it will be printed in 4 sections along the length and bolted/epoxied together. The upper deck is removeable to get at the watertight compartment, which it will share with one of my existing subs. About 2-1/2 feet long overall.
(https://i.postimg.cc/CMc1s1J0/My-Deepflight-CADOpen-Nose.jpg)
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That will be an interesting submarine, or low landing plane?
Chris, what is the build plate size on that printer?
Tom
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That will be an interesting submarine, or low landing plane?
Chris, what is the build plate size on that printer?
Tom
It will print 250mm x 220mm x 210mm maximum. They are also developing a larger one, don't know when it will be out. All the details on their website.
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Just finished getting the legs on the cylinder, fitted a little shim wedge for that one spot I cut too much off. Ran a bead of soft solder around the joint to smooth it in. Will let that cool, clean up, and post pics later.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Liked the new design RC boat! You'll get at least one sub If you load video of it to your YT channel.... :facepalm: :Lol:
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Looking really good and getting there slowly. Lovely
Willy
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Looking really good and getting there slowly. Lovely
Willy
Thanks Willy! Glad you are still following along and hope you are doing better!
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Wow! That Mk4 Sounds pretty promising! :ThumbsUp: ;D
How long was your lead time for the Mk4 upgrade kit?
Kim
I ordered it way back on April 4, they were taking pre-orders before it was ready to ship. It was delayed several weeks at the last minute when they realized they had several versions of the power supply and cables from the early mk3 printers, thats all sorted now and they are getting back to a more normal shipping schedule. The assembled printers say a 2-3 week lead time, for the assemble-it-yourself kit they are saying 4-5 weeks. For the Mk3 to Mk4 upgrade kits, they are saying they will not process new orders till sometime in November, they are buried in orders for the full printers and are adding more staff. If I was buying the printer new, I'd be really tempted to go with the pre-assembled one. More money, but the assembly is not easy. The manual is terrific, but there are a LOT of parts, its around a 3 day build at 4 hours per day.
Thanks for the info, Chris. Yeah, just checked the website and I see what you mean... not processing new orders till November. I'll have to get mine on order soon if I'm going to get it by Xmas! ;D
I actually found the build very fun! It wasn't overly difficult, just involved. And anyone who does the stuff we do here on our model builds should have no problem with the printer build. And I learned so much about the printer by building it! I'm actually looking forward to doing the Mk3->Mk4 update myself too. I think it will be just as fun! ;D
Very cool sub! Can't wait to see how it plays with the others :)
Kim
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Wow! That Mk4 Sounds pretty promising! :ThumbsUp: ;D
How long was your lead time for the Mk4 upgrade kit?
Kim
I ordered it way back on April 4, they were taking pre-orders before it was ready to ship. It was delayed several weeks at the last minute when they realized they had several versions of the power supply and cables from the early mk3 printers, thats all sorted now and they are getting back to a more normal shipping schedule. The assembled printers say a 2-3 week lead time, for the assemble-it-yourself kit they are saying 4-5 weeks. For the Mk3 to Mk4 upgrade kits, they are saying they will not process new orders till sometime in November, they are buried in orders for the full printers and are adding more staff. If I was buying the printer new, I'd be really tempted to go with the pre-assembled one. More money, but the assembly is not easy. The manual is terrific, but there are a LOT of parts, its around a 3 day build at 4 hours per day.
Thanks for the info, Chris. Yeah, just checked the website and I see what you mean... not processing new orders till November. I'll have to get mine on order soon if I'm going to get it by Xmas! ;D
I actually found the build very fun! It wasn't overly difficult, just involved. And anyone who does the stuff we do here on our model builds should have no problem with the printer build. And I learned so much about the printer by building it! I'm actually looking forward to doing the Mk3->Mk4 update myself too. I think it will be just as fun! ;D
Very cool sub! Can't wait to see how it plays with the others :)
Kim
If you can't get it in time, other option is to buy the mk4 kit, and either let it sit next to your mk3 and have races, or sell the mk3. Hard to say when they'll actually take new upgrade orders, they have a big backlog of the preordered ones to get through.
After lunch I started the first hull section printing, its already more than half done. The movements are all very noticeably faster, surfaces are smoother, even at the .2mm layer height.
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Okay, the IP cylinder now has a full complement of legs to stand on!
(https://i.postimg.cc/Jzs0YL0F/IMG-4114.jpg)
Next time I'll finish tapping the rest of the long row of holes around the top cap, then will get started on the steam chest. The base it bolts to is there, but it still needs the block that has all the ports and passages, along with the side walls that will form the chest cavity and hold the valve gland and the cover. All tht will stick another inch or so out the side of the cylinder.
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This morning saw the rest of the top cap holes tapped, and I've started laying out the stock for the valve plate and slider. Since all the steam chests and sliders for the IP and LP cylinders are the same, I'll be making all three sets up at one time. Before I get too far, I need to stress relieve some more bar stock for these parts - don't want the sliders or valve plates warping as the passages are cut, since they are so large. The valve plate blanks are 3" x 3.75", the sliders will be about 2.8" square - big valves!
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Hello Chris,
Those valve plates and I assume the steam ports look absolutely huge.
As you know I am not schooled in matters of steam power, so here comes dumb question number two.
I me, it would appear that the moment the valve plate and port open, there will be an instantaneous (almost explosive?) inrush of steam/ air pressure into that cylinder. Would this not lead to a very harsh running engine? My, non steam, instincts would suggest that relatively small steam ports would lead to a more controlled, smoother running, well mannered engine. The full size engine may be trying to produce thousands of horsepower from hundreds of pounds of superheated steam, whereas you are will probably only want to run an unloaded engine from a portable air compressor.
Perhaps there is another mechanism, to do with the inter-stage valve timing of the HP, IP and two LP cylinders, which regulates how the steam /air flows and how the engine behaves.
I'm sure Mr McAndrew will be turning in his grave and saying "Damned Ijjit"
Cheers
Mike :headscratch:
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Hello Chris,
Those valve plates and I assume the steam ports look absolutely huge.
As you know I am not schooled in matters of steam power, so here comes dumb question number two.
I me, it would appear that the moment the valve plate and port open, there will be an instantaneous (almost explosive?) inrush of steam/ air pressure into that cylinder. Would this not lead to a very harsh running engine? My, non steam, instincts would suggest that relatively small steam ports would lead to a more controlled, smoother running, well mannered engine. The full size engine may be trying to produce thousands of horsepower from hundreds of pounds of superheated steam, whereas you are will probably only want to run an unloaded engine from a portable air compressor.
Perhaps there is another mechanism, to do with the inter-stage valve timing of the HP, IP and two LP cylinders, which regulates how the steam /air flows and how the engine behaves.
I'm sure Mr McAndrew will be turning in his grave and saying "Damned Ijjit"
Cheers
Mike :headscratch:
Hi Mike,
You are right, for the full size engine they were trying to get max power out of the engine, and for the model if the ports are so big it will be a quick flow/power. The way I like to feed my engines is through a needle valve with the air set to full pressure (usually 40 to 60 psi). The needle valve acts to limit the flow of air, which limits the pressure and speed of movement in the cylinder. As long as the needle valve is close to the steam chest, there is not a lot of volume in the steam chest and piping to build up a lot of volume, keeping the flow down. Think of it like blowing through a small straw or tube - you can have full pressure from your lungs (lots if you are something like a trumpet player I bet!) but the amount of air coming out through the tube is small, so it takes longer for it to fill the cylinder. You COULD get a similar effect with just lowering the pressure on the inlet, but there is a big difference in slow speed running: the way I do it, if the piston needs a little extra pressure to get it moving, the pressure past the needle valve will build up till it moves the piston, then the flow restriction lowers the pressure and flow and keeps the piston moving slow, great for demonstration on the bench. I did the same thing on my big Holly pumping engine, and it gets a nice slow turnover. Turning that engine over by hand on the flywheel takes a fair bit of force due to the pumps at the bottom and all the mass and surface area on the piston rings, which keeps it from running smoothly on low inlet pressure and wide open inlet valve alone. I started doing it this way early on in my modelling when I did a twin beam engine - it had a sticky spot in the rotation that I was having a hard time finding, so it would only run on high pressure and way too fast, adding the needle valve settle it way down.
Anyway, for this engine with the huge ports it should still run well with the needle valve limiting the flow. In my initial test run with just the HP cylinder, it was running quite fast - this was the only way I could get it past the top/bottom center positions without having a flywheel on the crankshaft, though if I had the needle valve open just a little, it would move the crank through about 170 degrees of its turn nice and slow, it just wouldn't go around to the start of the next stroke. Once the other cylinders are there at 90 degrees to the first ones, it should tick along slow. I hope.
Does that way of explaining it make sense?
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Mike
Considering the full size engine, yes, a sudden inrush of steam would not be a good idea. Sudden fluid flow is thermodynamically wasteful. Just as with an IC engine, valve events do not occur at dead centres. The exhaust valve is normally arranged to close considerably before dead centre in order to compress the remaining exhaust steam. Two reasons are given for this, firstly it is argued that it cushions the deceleration of the reciprocating mass, and indeed, on a large vertical engine like this, there may be more compression at the bottom end where gravity isn't helping. Secondly, it brings the pressure in the cylinder clearance volume up to something approaching steam chest pressure, so minimising the sudden inrush.
Additionally, the valve opens to steam a little before top dead. This is called 'lead', and ensures that the valve is well open before the piston accelerates away. Cracking the valve open would give rise to 'wire drawing' of the steam, which is also bad thermodynamics.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Schematic_indicator_diagram.png (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Schematic_indicator_diagram.png)
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Chris and Charles, Thank you both for your concise and informative replies.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in my philosophy."
The idea of high pressure and restricted flow air/steam supply makes perfect sense. As does using valve timing events to cushion the decelerations and to equalise cylinder pressure to minimise sudden inrush.
Mike
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This morning some time was spent in the CAD model, tweaking some of the valve port dimensions and locations to make it easier to make with my cutter sizes, plus making the internal passages by drilling/plugging rather than the curved cast in passages of the original. Got the 2D paper plans generated from that, so I can start prepping the bar stock I rough cut yesterday. I'll get things trimmed/trued up to outside dimensions, then can start milling in passages. Pics later as that happens...
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Got the blanks for the steam chest valve faces and sliders mostly done, still need to trim the width of the valve face blocks to final dimension. Sliders on the left, valve faces on the right. After they are taken to width I'll start drilling the passage holes and mounting holes for the side panels, then mill the ports, then take a truing cut on the mating faces. As usual with bar stock, the faces of the bar are not flat enough, so will take a light trueing pass before lapping the faces. The sides of the chest will be added on, from some 3/16" x 1" flat bar, extending to the back face of the valve face blocks and screwed on from the sides. These sides will have holes down the outer sides to take the steam chest caps. Lots to be done!
(https://i.postimg.cc/vmJn4PB2/IMG-4115.jpg)
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AMAZING Project Chris Wow just Wow.
Tin
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Thanks Tin! :cheers:
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After lunch and a few hours outside, I got the sides of the valve face blocks down to final dimension. Then turned them over to the shop elves to get the guide lines for the ports drawn on (these are just to keep me from making a silly mistake, all cuts will be from measurements, not the lines). And, yes, I DID give the elves a sobriety and vision test first! :Lol:
Notice that there is an extra pair of rectangles compared to a normal D valve port face, this engine uses double-ported valves. The slider will also have multiple recesses and passages to work with the extra ports.
(https://i.postimg.cc/2SSGf8Vk/IMG-4116.jpg)
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A couple of days ago I posted a picture of the RC submarine hull I was starting to 3D print, here is where its at now with the final parts (wings, elevators, rudders) printing in the background. Last to print will be the forms to vacu-form the cockpit glass over. The newly upgraded printer is a LOT faster, 2.5 to 3 times the speed of the old one on these parts. I'm going to be re-using the same water-tight compartment for the electronics that is in one of the other subs (can only run one at a time if I don't want to keep running into things anyway), so once these parts are assembled and painted, it just will need the elevator, prop shaft and rudder gear to be made and installed. Then I can send the shop elves out for a drowning. I mean tour. :Jester:
(https://i.postimg.cc/fW55q9R2/IMG-4117.jpg)
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Shop's gonna be knee deep in solid gold chips in no time! :Lol:
The sub is looking fantastic!
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Shop's gonna be knee deep in solid gold chips in no time! :Lol:
The sub is looking fantastic!
Thanks Jeff! New batch of chocolate chip cookies is in the oven to celebrate the progress.
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That is a good looking hull Chris. The upgrade parts seem to be doing a fine job. That is a lovely finish on the hull parts.
:cheers:
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That is a good looking hull Chris. The upgrade parts seem to be doing a fine job. That is a lovely finish on the hull parts.
:cheers:
The seams are fitting nice a tight overall, a few places that will need some filler after glueing them together, but I don't think it will need sanding/filling over the whole surface. Quite pleased with the upgrade so far. One minor bug I found and reported in the slicer application.
:cheers:
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In the shop again this morning, starting out on the valve plates by drilling all the passage holes - better to do them first them mill the ports to meet them than trying to drill past the port with a partial overlap in places. Started with the exhaust port out the sides. I'm doing all three valve plates together, so it was well worth marking out all the openings first. Since the steam chest on the LP-1 cylinder faces the other way, that one has the exhaust port on the opposite side so all the piping comes out on the same side in the assembled model. The valve plates are mostly symmetrical, but for the exhaust ports and the extra set of holes at the bottom end to lead back to the bottom of the cylinder.
(https://i.postimg.cc/c1p5WvzM/IMG-4118.jpg)
Then have started drilling the holes in the end to form the connecting passages between the end pairs of ports, where they will connect to the ends of the cylinders. One set of holes down, 5 more to go! Reminds me of drilling the passages in the MEM Corliss engine years ago.
(https://i.postimg.cc/c4fkLsyq/IMG-4119.jpg)
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A lot of holes you have to drill. This requires attentive, concentrated work. The plate then goes into the steam box?
Michael
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A lot of holes you have to drill. This requires attentive, concentrated work. The plate then goes into the steam box?
Michael
Yes - there will be four thin strips added around the outside to form the rest of the box:
(https://i.postimg.cc/nVm5WKLG/Steam-chest.jpg)
This assembly will bolt to the base on the side of the cylinder.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: When you think about it, a steam engine's valving system is fundamentally a bad steam leak, carefully orchestrated! :Lol:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: When you think about it, a steam engine's valving system is fundamentally a bad steam leak, carefully orchestrated! :Lol:
Very interesting way to look at it. Strange. But interesting! :Lol:
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All of the long passages have been drilled in the ends of the valve plates, and have drilled the short connector passages at the bottom ends where another rectangular pipe section will connect to the bottom of the cylinders (at the top, an extension of the cap will do the same thing there). When the side walls go on the valve plates, they will cover the ends of these bottom holes so no plugs needed.
(https://i.postimg.cc/xCjFjPXN/IMG-4120.jpg)
With the passages done, its time to move on to some fun milling - cutting the port openings! As mentioned before, the lines sketched on the durface are just there as guides to prevent major mistakes in the layout, I'm using measurements of the port widths and positions to guide the cutting. First up is to cut the center exhaust port in each of the three plates. First roughing them in, then will go back and take fine finish passes to finished dimensions. The ports are all 3/8" deep, the exhaust ones 1/2" tall, the rest will be .2" tall.
(https://i.postimg.cc/257KftSf/IMG-4121.jpg)
Going to be taking these steps slow and taking lost of measurements, don't want to have to start over on any of these plates!
:cheers:
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Exhaust ports on all three plates taken out to final dimensions, starting in on the first of the steam ports. Again, doing same operation on all three plates before moving on to the next position, the work stop on the vise is making this a lot easier. At the bottom of the inlet port you can see where the previously drilled holes connect in.
(https://i.postimg.cc/3x8ZMxVn/IMG-4122.jpg)
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It's fascinating to watch a different kind of valve mechanism take shape! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
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You have to keep your head as one lapse of concentration could see you having to remake a part not fun when so much time has been invested so far. Looking great and look forward to seeing these parts come together :ThumbsUp:
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Thanks guys! Lots of steps on these, so tak8ng it slow and not trying to do too much in one session. :cheers:
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Thanks guys! Lots of steps on these, so tak8ng it slow and not trying to do too much in one session. :cheers:
Agreed. Forgive the awful pun, but you have enough on your plate(s) already!
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Thanks guys! Lots of steps on these, so tak8ng it slow and not trying to do too much in one session. :cheers:
Agreed. Forgive the awful pun, but you have enough on your plate(s) already!
I'm eating the cookies off the plate as fast as I can! Oh, not that plate... :Lol:
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More work on the valve ports, got all of them roughed in on all three plates, and have started trimming them to final dimension. So far have three of the four ports trimmed out. In this picture the left three of the narrow ports are to final position and width, just the one on the far right to go...
(https://i.postimg.cc/D0X9SJ4K/IMG-4124.jpg)
After having made so many engines with the normal three ports, cutting one with five is very strange! It will be interesting to see how it behaves.
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The next cover of Live Steam magazine, with my Holly steam powered water pumping engine model - not a full build article, just a shorter summery. The Marion steam shovel build series still running too... :wine1:
(https://i.postimg.cc/nLX0V8Qy/Holly-engine-cover.jpg)
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CONGRADULATIONS!
Sid
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Thanks guys! Sid, you have one coming up soon too, don't you?
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They say Any Ol' Port In A Storm, but its a bright sunny day here so I'll settle for a flock of inlet and exhaust ports! All of the ports/passages are done in the valve plates:
(https://i.postimg.cc/T2b2Lp6w/IMG-4125.jpg)
All came out well, no miscounts on the handwheels that I can detect, so a good place to head outside for the afternoon. Next up will be to start laying out the stock for the outer walls. I've got enough for at least one, maybe two of the plates, need to order in some more of that size bar. I've got another big event to prep for this weekend, so may not be much more progress to show after tomorrow.
:cheers: :cheers:
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Congrats on the cover shot, Chris! :ThumbsUp: ;D
Haven't seen my copy yet, but I'm sure it's coming!
Nice ports too! :ThumbsUp:
Kim
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Congrats on the cover shot, Chris! :ThumbsUp: ;D
Haven't seen my copy yet, but I'm sure it's coming!
Nice ports too! :ThumbsUp:
Kim
Probably another 2 weeks before the issues are in mailboxes, I grabbed that cover shot from the website where they post the issue indexes.
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Got the flat bars for the steam chest sides rough cut and trimmed to length. Had enough for all but two of the sides, got more on the way to finish them up.
(https://i.postimg.cc/4d9XHbdW/IMG-4127.jpg)
And lots more drilling and tapping, to attach the sides to the valve blocks...
(https://i.postimg.cc/tgfXgmX1/IMG-4126.jpg)
With the same setup, am drilling the holes in the sides too so they match up. After drilling all these holes I will come back and countersink them for some flat head screws, after assembly the screw heads will get epoxied over to hide them. Also will set up to drill the exhaust holes in the appropriate sides, one per pair.
(https://i.postimg.cc/qqH4sh64/IMG-4128.jpg)
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Sides are all drilled and screwed on, next will do the same steps for the ends...
(https://i.postimg.cc/QxLvMZcG/IMG-4129.jpg)
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It looks good 👍
is the box still soldered?
I think it would be bad if solder ran into the slots or even onto the sliding surface when soldering. Or are you taking a different route?
Michael
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It looks good 👍
is the box still soldered?
I think it would be bad if solder ran into the slots or even onto the sliding surface when soldering. Or are you taking a different route?
Michael
Not planning on soldering the box, I think just some sealant or gasket maker on assembly will do the job. As you say, stray solder would be a mess. The box will just bolt to the frame on the side of the cylinder.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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RioGrande does have a solder blocking product, it's a fine clay like powder stuff, you wet it to the paste like state you want and brush it on where you don't want solder to go.. all cleans off easy after.. :cheers:
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RioGrande does have a solder blocking product, it's a fine clay like powder stuff, you wet it to the paste like state you want and brush it on where you don't want solder to go.. all cleans off easy after.. :cheers:
I still think the sealant would be a better choice in this case - since the valve face has to be lapped before assembling the sides on, I don't want to risk the heating, flux, etc so close to that surface, there is very little clearance from the walls to the surface where the valve slider is. I'll go check out that solder blocker for future reference though! It works on soft solder and its fluxes? I have stuff for the high temp silver solder. :cheers:
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Out of the shop over the weekend, was back up in Maine at the logging museum, working on the Lombard Crew again, setting up and running the steamer and the two gas powered Lomabrd trucks. Here is the steamer with a giant shop elf at the wheel...
(https://i.postimg.cc/RCp1nN1j/Lombard-Run-3.jpg)
The three Lombards we were running (there is another steamer in the barn, belongs to the Crooker family up there, we don't run that one). A third gas powered one will hopefully be there later in the year, was about to be shipped in but an engine problem was discovered that needs to be handled first. The little tractor in the foreground is a Cletrac. The green one has a flatbed rear deck, the gray one is a dump truck version.
(https://i.postimg.cc/rssSPkTn/Lombard-Run-1.jpg)
The whole crew!
(https://i.postimg.cc/zvQnmcXJ/Lombard-Run-2.jpg)
Well, almost all the crew in that shot - Terry was only there the first day, he's in this shot next to me on the track
(https://i.postimg.cc/vmvf8BH2/Lombard-Run-4.jpg)
Super fun weekend! Lots of other stuff going on in the rest of the museum, a number of sawmills, shingle mill, cooking, blacksmithing, etc.
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Looks like a lot of fun, and on such a beautiful fall weekend! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Thanks for the pics, Chris :)
kim
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :cheers:
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Back on the engine today, have gotten the rest of the side panels made and test assembled. Here are the three boxes, for the IP, LP1, LP2 cylinders. All are the same except for the exhaust port location.
(https://i.postimg.cc/wv7nJFTS/IMG-4130.jpg)
They are not ready for final asembly yet, still need to drill/tap the cover bolt holes, plus drill the inlet pipe holes. This is where the IP steam chest will sit on the cylinder:
(https://i.postimg.cc/k4zzy82D/IMG-4131.jpg)
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That was one massive steam chest on the full size engine. Must have been about a million bolts holding that cover on.
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That was one massive steam chest on the full size engine. Must have been about a million bolts holding that cover on.
Only about 42 bolts per cover! Large ones...
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Before I start drilling the cover bolt holes in the chests, figured I might as well make the covers first so I can drill them in the same setup. Got the ends milled to form the flanges on all three, and the sides on one so far...
(https://i.postimg.cc/QtMCGLNv/IMG-4133.jpg)
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Can't you let the workshop elf do the annoying drilling work? Or is this going wrong? (Reduce beer consumption)
You must have had a nice weekend. With nice people and interesting engines.
Michael
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Can't you let the workshop elf do the annoying drilling work? Or is this going wrong? (Reduce beer consumption)
You must have had a nice weekend. With nice people and interesting engines.
Michael
If I let the elves do it by themselves, the first two rows will be good, the rest will wander off and start making pictures, maps to beer store... :Jester:
The weekend was amazing, excellent turnout, lots of old friends there. I stopped in at the railway museum south of there to see Ron Ginger and the new passenger coach (full size) that he is helping build, plus the new locomotive (also full size) that they are building. They were geting the cylinders mounted on the frame using the overhead crane.
Here is a video that Herb at the museum put together, plus a photo album of the weekend he did
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m09NGk-mEJk
https://photos.app.goo.gl/bmaBsgr4RPtXNJEEA (https://photos.app.goo.gl/bmaBsgr4RPtXNJEEA)
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An interesting video about the Lumberjack Museum. Chris, you need a steam engine for steering 😁. makes steering easier.
Michael :cheers:
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An interesting video about the Lumberjack Museum. Chris, you need a steam engine for steering 😁. makes steering easier.
Michael :cheers:
That sure would have helped! The steering on the steamer is about 42:1 reduction but just a series of spur gears, so if the wheel hits a rock or hole, it shoves the entire axle back and tried to spin the steering wheel against you - I've had it yank out of my grip and turn the wheel about 2 complete turns in a fraction of a second. Must keep fingers/thumb out of the path of the spokes or they will get broken off. The steering moves the entire axle like a traction engine, but there is no worm gear to prevent feedback. The later gas powered Lombards all have steering more like a traction engine, no feedback on the wheel, much more pleasant to drive, aside from the noise of the giant gas engine. On the steamer, its about 6 or 7 turns of the wheel overall from full left to right, so its a lot of turning back and forth just to go straight. Another fun part is getting back in the modern car at the end of the day and not steering the same and zinging off into the woods!
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One of the guys froom the museum posted these pictures from an old book, taken in the heyday of logging, simply amazing photos! Check out the ones where they are building the trestle bridge.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/nLH4c3n7tEYkDuhh6 (https://photos.app.goo.gl/nLH4c3n7tEYkDuhh6)
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Great photos! I really like the massive multi winch donkey engine in the pic numbered 8559. Now THAT'S a winch set! :cheers:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Great photos! I really like the massive multi winch donkey engine in the pic numbered 8559. Now THAT'S a winch set! :cheers:
I saw one like that at the Cass railway in West Virginia as I recall - looks like a setup for yarding the logs and loading them on the rail cars. The size of the logs they were cutting in some of the pictures and the ones assembled for the rail trestle is staggering.
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Got the outside faces of the steam chest coversrecessed, and have started drilling/tapping all the holes to hold them to the chests. Starting out by clamping the covers in place and drilling/tapping a row at opposite corners, running in some screws, and then I can work my way around without needing the clamps any more. Going to take a while to do all the holes!
(https://i.postimg.cc/x1f8L561/IMG-4134.jpg)
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Got the outside faces of the steam chest coversrecessed, and have started drilling/tapping all the holes to hold them to the chests. Starting out by clamping the covers in place and drilling/tapping a row at opposite corners, running in some screws, and then I can work my way around without needing the clamps any more. Going to take a while to do all the holes!
SNIP
How big is this piece please? I have no idea of the scale.
John
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Got the outside faces of the steam chest coversrecessed, and have started drilling/tapping all the holes to hold them to the chests. Starting out by clamping the covers in place and drilling/tapping a row at opposite corners, running in some screws, and then I can work my way around without needing the clamps any more. Going to take a while to do all the holes!
SNIP
How big is this piece please? I have no idea of the scale.
John
Hi John,
The steam chests are 3" wide by 3.75" long, 1" tall plus another 3/8" for the thickness of the covers.
:cheers:
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Lots more drilling and tapping done, lots more to go. Got the end holes on all three steam chests done, and the side holes on the first one. four more sides to go...
(https://i.postimg.cc/R0b4W6CP/IMG-4135.jpg)
Drilling them with the caps on is working out great, no worries about mis-alignments. Partway through I sped things up by drilling the clearance holes in the caps through the caps on the mill where I can advance the distances each time, then moved to the drill press for the tap holes the rest of the way into the sides, using the bottom of the clearance hole as a starter position. Much less handwheel cranking that way.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Enormous drilling and threading work.
And you have a nice little oil can. You can buy them at flea markets from time to time and the dealers want a lot of money for them.
Michael
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Enormous drilling and threading work.
And you have a nice little oil can. You can buy them at flea markets from time to time and the dealers want a lot of money for them.
Michael
Thats an old Brother oil can, my mother got it decades ago to oil her sewing machine. I use it for tapping fluid, dispenses nice small drops.
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Got all the cover holes drilled and tapped, and then took a couple thou off the top surface of the side walls, since the bar stock was a bit rounded on the corners and I wanted a good flat surface for the gasket under the cap.
(https://i.postimg.cc/J4tLgwJf/IMG-4136.jpg)
Next up will be to drill the mounting holes to hold the steam chests to the bases on the cylinders, and drill out the steam inlet pipe holes. Then will make up the short pipe/flange sections for all the inlet/exhaust holes. Still a bunch to do on the steam chests - adding the Lovekin Valves, valve rod glands, valve rod guides, make the pipes/passages for the starting valve inlets, assemble the side walls with some sealant, and make the cover gaskets.
:cheers:
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one bite at a time!!!! :cheers:
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More nibbling away on the steam chests! Got the ports drilled in the sides, and drilled/countersunk the mounting holes in the valve face plate. Here is the IP chest mounted on the cylinder for the first time:
(https://i.postimg.cc/ncny8ymF/IMG-4137.jpg)
Next time I'll get back on the lathe and start turning up the pipe sections that will be soldered to the side plates for the inlet/exhaust ports...
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Great work, as always, Chris! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn:
That is a surprisingly large steam chest! It's wider than the cylinder it feeds - very unusual. So, one assumes this was to get the required volume of steam into the cylinder in a short period of time? It just seems so much larger than any other engine I've seen!
Kim
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Great work, as always, Chris! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn:
That is a surprisingly large steam chest! It's wider than the cylinder it feeds - very unusual. So, one assumes this was to get the required volume of steam into the cylinder in a short period of time? It just seems so much larger than any other engine I've seen!
Kim
Thanks Kim!
They made all three (IP and 2 LP) steam chests the same size and use the same parts, I am thinking they sized it as you say for max volume quickly, for max power from the huge cylinders. I guess engines for warships are made for power and speed, not so much for economy!
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close to home the navy had many coaling stations, long range you traveled with a collier. plus coal was considered a degree of armor.. bunkers lined the hull around the boiler and machinery spaces.. feeding the crew most likely cost more than feeding the boilers..
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Yesterday and today have been in mass production mode on pipe fittings for the steam chests. There are three large and one small pipe for each chest, two inlet, one exhaust, and one starting valve connection. So far I've gotten the fittings for all turned, and have started drilling fot the bolts to hold the pipe ends on. This is one of the starting valve flanges:
(https://i.postimg.cc/85Nqrgnc/IMG-4138.jpg)
Bunch more drilling to do, then I need to make up another batch of fittings for the ends of the pipes and elbows. Most of the pipes are straight with 90 degree elbows, but the one going from the IP exhaust to the LP inlets will be a more tricky Y pipe, will do that one later on when making up the connections to the LP cylinders. To do the timing of the valve on the IP cylinder, I'll make up some flat caps to seal off the inlets on the chest, and do the timing tests using just the starting valve, so I can isolate the cylinder from the HP one.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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More (and more) flanges made today. Made up a list/diagram of all the ones needed for all the cylinders. An awful lot of them to make! What ninny thought it would be fun to build a four cylinder engine? :shrug: :Lol:
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More (and more) flanges made today. Made up a list/diagram of all the ones needed for all the cylinders. An awful lot of them to make! What ninny thought it would be fun to build a four cylinder engine? :shrug: :Lol:
:ROFL:
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I guess a V-16 Cadillac IC engine's out of the question then? :Lol:
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Watch for symptoms of flange-osis when making those bushels of pipe fittings.... :cheers:
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I guess a V-16 Cadillac IC engine's out of the question then? :Lol:
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Watch for symptoms of flange-osis when making those bushels of pipe fittings.... :cheers:
The shop elves are using them as frisbees, they darn well better not lose any!! :cussing:
Got 5 more of the ones for the larger pipes to drill and part off, then need to turn/drill more batches for the starting valve piping. And then 12 bazillion holes to tap!
To take a break from the repetition of the pipework, I've been playnig in Fusion on the model of the Marion 37 steam shovel that I found a parts list manual for (with drawings of all the parts). There is an original machine in a museum in Kansas: https://www.crawfordcountymuseum.com/marion-steamshovel (https://www.crawfordcountymuseum.com/marion-steamshovel)
The drawings are not dimensioned and are to different scales, but the director of the museum in Kansas very kindly took a whole bunch of pictures for me that I can scale from, like this one:
(https://i.postimg.cc/LsM9BhJ9/Marion37-Front.jpg)
He took more up under the track frame, and inside the cab of all the engines and linkages. Here is where the CAD version is so far:
(https://i.postimg.cc/T1hfYD49/Marion37-CAD1.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/HnKHJLGC/Marion37-CAD2.jpg)
And this shovel only has three two cylinder engines, two of them just like the slew/crowd engines on the Marion 91 that I did. And, wait, um, dang, its got 68 track plates... :killcomputer: Good thing its a few models down the build list! :Jester:
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At least you are on the right track! :praise2:
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At least you are on the right track! :praise2:
And the left one! :Jester:
:cheers:
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Another exciting project for the list!
It's been a while since you've made a tracked vehicle! I'm looking forward to it! :)
Kim
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Another exciting project for the list!
It's been a while since you've made a tracked vehicle! I'm looking forward to it! :)
Kim
It will be a fun project! Don't know exactly where in the list it will go, not at the top of it, got some other ones with higher priority.
:cheers:
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Okay, finally have all the flanges made for the steam/exhaust pipes! Quite a pile! The fact that there are two steam inlets on each chest increased the number needed - my guess is that they used the volume in the pipes as receiver space for the compound cylinders. The IP exhaust splits into two pipes, one top and one bottom of the LP chests. The Hp valve has an exhaust at each end so no split needed.
(https://i.postimg.cc/mgdN6dzk/IMG-4143.jpg)
Still need to make up some for the starting valves, they are smaller and there are a lot fewer of them so probably can knock them out this afternoon. After that comes a lot of soldering, going to soft solder the elbows/tees at least, will try that on the steam chest side flanges too though they may get silver soldered instead. The pile on the left is for the ends of the straight pipes, I can't make those pipes till the steam chests they attach to are installed on the cylinders and the rest of the engine, to get the final lengths needed. Also, to help in tuning the starting valves, I'm going to drill/tap each of the chests for a small pressure gauge on the back side.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: What a lineup of fittings! Looking great.
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That's a ton of flanges and fittings! And even more to go! That's quite a herd you have there! :popcorn: :cheers: :popcorn:
Kim
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Whole lot of holes, flange and fittings + screws, studs and nuts - lots to keep track of :insane:
But nice progress on all accounts :ThumbsUp:
Per :cheers:
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Thanks guys!
This morning got the flanges soldered to the steam chest sides and to the elbows/tees. The ones that go on the straight pipe ends will have to wait till the cylinders are mounted so I can measure the exact lengths needed. I overheated the first elbow and the solder made a bit of a mess as the flux cooked off, so after they are cleaned again I'll have to redo that one, and will check the rest for full solder flow. We've got our first indoor pool run with the RC subs this weekend, so also need to get some batteries on charge...
Lets see, when the side plates are all set with the soldering, it will be on to some work on the end plates to drill holes for the valve rod glands and guides. Last job before assembling the steam chests with sealant will be to lap the valve faces. Lots to keep track of!
:cheers:
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Chris, good progress!
You can definitely watch the submarines diving in the indoor pool. I was once in a large submarine, but not underwater. It was floating in the harbor. It was a strange feeling.
I like model submarines much better.
Michael
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Chris, good progress!
You can definitely watch the submarines diving in the indoor pool. I was once in a large submarine, but not underwater. It was floating in the harbor. It was a strange feeling.
I like model submarines much better.
Michael
Same here, been in several old subs at museum docks, that was deep enough for me! Running the RC subs is a lot like flying an RC airplane, just a lot slower and crashes are not a problem (other than scuffed paint or a bent periscope).
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Note re keeping track of a lot of stuff - Based on my own experiences, I wouldn't depend on Stu Pervisor to keep things organized, even though he has that slick Ferrari red clipboard! :Lol:
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Getting close to finishing up the steam chests! All the pipe flanges are on, and just finished up drilling/tapping the holes for the valve rods, glands, and guides.
(https://i.postimg.cc/65VHVhY8/IMG-4144.jpg)
Doing all three chests at once has slowed down the progress on the IP cylinder, but it will pay off in the long run, the two LP cylinders will go that much faster when these parts just bolt on.
Next up is to lap the valve faces and get the sides mounted permenantly with some sealant, and fill the screw head holes with some epoxy. :cartwheel: Then can move on to making the valve sliders, glands, and guides.
:cheers:
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Oh, and make/install the dummy Lovekin valves on top of the steam chests. Those are little cylinders, vented to the outside, that were used to take up most of the weight of the sliders using the pressure in the steam chests. That way the eccentrics only had to deal with moving them, not supporting their weight as well. On sliders this big, that was a major factor. I had shown this diagram before, at the top of the chest you can see the small piston, that is the Lovekin valve assembly. There was a vent from the top of its cylinder that could be adjusted to set the amount of force applied in lifting the valve rod. The eccentric could still move the valve rod and that piston up and down.
(https://i.postimg.cc/rmVfy4q3/Ports-from-book.jpg)
If you are interested in more information, the 1946 Naval Machinery book has a great diagram/explanation here, on pages 2-19 and 2-20:
https://books.google.com/books?id=AhtVAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-SA2-PA20&dq=lovekin+assistant+cylinder&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjW37rZnIWCAxV3FVkFHQMGDHoQ6AF6BAgoEAI#v=onepage&q=lovekin%20assistant%20cylinder&f=false (https://books.google.com/books?id=AhtVAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA1-SA2-PA20&dq=lovekin+assistant+cylinder&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjW37rZnIWCAxV3FVkFHQMGDHoQ6AF6BAgoEAI#v=onepage&q=lovekin%20assistant%20cylinder&f=false)
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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The IP valve plate has been lapped smooth, using a sequence of grits on a piece of float glass made for lapping. The two LP plates will be done later, too much handling on them still to come when fitting them to their cylinders.
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This morning I assembled the IP steam chest with some sealant:
(https://i.postimg.cc/s254YYYn/IMG-4146.jpg)
While that is curing up, I got started on the slide valve. After some time with the plans to remind myself how the double porting works, and making a list of the order of holes/cuts, work started on them. Back when starting the steam chests I had milled the blanks to length/width, so first step today is to get the sides/ends rebated back to form the flange that sits against the valve face:
(https://i.postimg.cc/bw7RSCtD/IMG-4145.jpg)
As with the chests, I'm going to make all three (IP, LP1, LP2) at once, since they are all the same. So, another session should see the flanges all formed.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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All of the sides of the slide valves have been notched back, then got the cross passage holes drilled through from either side. These passages will connect the outer ports to the exhaust port in the center, and the ends of these holes will be plugged - on the original they had wide curved passages cored into the castings. The inner ports will get holes drilled in from the sides, those ports are used to get steam to the second set of valve face ports. Confusing arrangement, see the diagram shown on earlier posts.
(https://i.postimg.cc/jSQZBWd3/IMG-4147.jpg)
The ports have all been drawn in on the first slider block, these lines will serve as double-checks to the layout as I go, to prevent major mis-counts of crank turns, but the positions/dimensions will be cut by measurements, not these lines. Am starting out by cutting the center exhaust ports down to meet the drilled passages. First passes will be to rough out the majority of the material in all three sliders, then I'll come back and take light cuts to get them out to final dimensions.
(https://i.postimg.cc/zfz0NJyz/IMG-4149.jpg)
Lots of fiddly work, just like cutting the ports on the valve faces was. This will take a couple of days, I want to take my time and get them right!
This afternoon we are off at the indoor pool for the first of our RC submarine indoor season. Great fun!
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Hope the sub outing is fun. Good luck with the remaining passage machining.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Hope the sub outing is fun. Good luck with the remaining passage machining.
Just got back - great time at the pool, everyone in the local group was there.
This afternoon I got the rest of the ports roughed in, and the exhaust ports all trimmed to final size.
:cheers:
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This project is progressing nicely Chris. Any idea what it weighs at this point? I won't even ask about the parts count!
I know you still have a ways to go, but I can't wait to see what is next.
:cheers:
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This project is progressing nicely Chris. Any idea what it weighs at this point? I won't even ask about the parts count!
I know you still have a ways to go, but I can't wait to see what is next.
:cheers:
I weighed it when the HP cylinder was done, 47.5 pounds, and I had lost count on parts before that around 800! I'll weigh the remaining cylinder assemblies as they go on, guessing several pounds each at least.
EDIT: checked my notes, its 44.5 pounds after HP cylinder, not 47.5. My memory is gaining weight too! :Lol:
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Got on a roll this morning and the rest of the slider ports are trimmed to final dimensions. :cartwheel: Biggest sliders I've ever made, the exhaust ports are bigger than the usual sliders are overall. The sliders are 2.7" x 2.6".
(https://i.postimg.cc/4yxX0XFH/IMG-4150.jpg)
Down to the last few operations on the sliders, next is to drill the valve rod holes:
(https://i.postimg.cc/L5QmKGrC/IMG-4151.jpg)
Left to do: mill the adjusting nut slots, make the adjusting nuts and valve rods, plug the ends of the passage holes, round the upper corners, and lap the faces.
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Nearly done with the valve sliders, the ports have been cut in the sides to let steam into the second row:
(https://i.postimg.cc/6qQFxcJY/IMG-4152.jpg)
Rounded the upper corners of the sliders on the belt sander. Also got the plugs cut from some round brass rod and loctited in place. After they set up for a couple hours they were sanded off flush. Really can't see them anymore, but there are two plugs either side of the center hole in the slider in the middle of the pile (can just make out the outlines of the two on the left side)
(https://i.postimg.cc/D0YHvG7F/IMG-4153.jpg)
Still to go on them is to mill the slot for the adjusting nut (am going to use a rectangular nut in the center just like we all normally do on smaller engines) and to lap the faces.
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Really neat, Chris! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn:
So, the top and bottom small chambers are connected to the center ones? And the middle chambers are vented to the side? :thinking:
Kim
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Really neat, Chris! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn:
So, the top and bottom small chambers are connected to the center ones? And the middle chambers are vented to the side? :thinking:
Kim
Correct!
As the valve moves from center down, say, the middle/upper chamber (2nd from the top end) moves over one of the top ports in the cylinder valve face, while the top end of the valve slider exposes the upper port, so there are two ports worth of volume opened up to the incoming steam. At the same time, the bottom port in the slider moves above the bottom port in the valve face, while the larger center opening in the middle of the slider move over the second port from the bottom in the face. That means there are two ports worth of volume open to the exhaust. The two upper ports in the cylinder face are connected to the top of the cylinder, the two lower ports to the bottom of the cylinder, as shown here:
(https://i.postimg.cc/6QRk4CJQ/Ports-Side-View.png)
Confusing? Yes! I still have to look at the diagrams often. What really helped was to print out the view of the valve face and of the slider at the same size, and move them against each other like they would be in the engine. If you want, print out this picture:
(https://i.postimg.cc/rmVfy4q3/Ports-from-book.jpg)
then cut it vertically along the valve face. Set the two pieces side by side and move them up and down. The way they drew the picture, the slider is just below center, with the upper ports just opening to steam.
If I get really ambitious I'll make an animation of it. But probably not! :Lol:
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I've also got this image from an old book of cardboard models. If you cut it horizontally at the valve face you can move it back and forth to illustrate the action. The red/green rectangles show the openings for the diagrams, the actual valve edges are just the edges of the heavy black lines.
(https://i.postimg.cc/RhXd4xQH/Double-Ported-Slide-Valve.jpg)
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Ah! I get it! Yes, I remember that drawing - you posted it earlier (the one you marked up with the red arrows, w/ the green and blue). But clearly, I didn't grok what I was seeing. But I get it now. Very clever! (and very complex!). Guess you gotta do some complicated things to get a high-performance engine! :Lol:
Thanks Chris!
Kim
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Ah! I get it! Yes, I remember that drawing - you posted it earlier (the one you marked up with the red arrows, w/ the green and blue). But clearly, I didn't grok what I was seeing. But I get it now. Very clever! (and very complex!). Guess you gotta do some complicated things to get a high-performance engine! :Lol:
Thanks Chris!
Kim
Every couple days during the making of the valves I had to go back to the diagrams myself, kept thinking "Wait - thats not right!" when it was correct after all. :insane: The real proof will be when I can 'steam' the IP cylinder up the first time - it will either move, or compressed air will come out everywhere!
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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As mentioned last time, the slot for the adjusting nut was the last thing to machine on the valve sliders. Simple step, with stops to re-measure depth/width 3 times to ensure I didn't break through into the passages. All good!
(https://i.postimg.cc/1zD4qdcd/IMG-4154.jpg)
Then drilled/tapped the holes in the back/lower face for the short connectors that will go to the lower end of the cylinders (those are still to be made). Then, got a start on the gaskets for the pipe flanges and steam chest covers - easier to install some of those parts while the chest is still off the cylinder. For this engine I've gotten away from using paper gaskets, which are fragile at this size and with so many many holes in them. Instead, I'm using some thin Viton sheet that I picked up a couple years ago. Its .030" thick, enough to still have some compression ability to it. At the same time I had gotten a piece of it that was about half that thick, but it is so thin and flexible that its tough to work with, this .030" sheet is juuussst right, as Goldilocks would say. Using one of the pipe flanges with clearance sized hole pattern, I'm stacking three pieces at a time on a block of wood and using the mini drill press to make the holes. First drill one hole, push a screw through, drill one on opposite side, another screw, and that holds the pieces all in alignment to drill the rest of the holes.
(https://i.postimg.cc/rsZpT2MD/IMG-4155.jpg)
With all the holes drilled,
(https://i.postimg.cc/tT5TrVct/IMG-4156.jpg)
the center hole could be cut with scissors and the first gasket assembled onto a pipe elbow and the outside cut off with the scissors
(https://i.postimg.cc/tTyJtzB4/IMG-4157.jpg)
and first one bolted on to the flange on the side of the steam chest. This is MUCH easier to do while the chest is off the cylinder, the screws can be started with a nut driver but have to be finish tightened with a small open end wrench.
(https://i.postimg.cc/C5xK9xTy/IMG-4158.jpg)
A stack of gasket blanks still to drill, and a few more to assemble onto the steam chest. I'll keep the elbows in place during the painting process, and later on when the cylinder is on the model for good I'll make up the straight pipe sections between this and the HP cylinder.
Every time I think I'm down to the last couple parts before testing this cylinder, I remember more that need to be made, like the just-mentioned connector to the base of the cylinder, also need to make the extension to the top cylinder cap to reach out over the top port holes in the chest, drill/tap all the new holes around that extension, make the piston head, the valve rod, blanking plates to isolate the IP cylinder for timing tests, etc etc etc... Aw, gee, I need to keep playing in the shop! :cartwheel:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Which of the shop elves has the job of checking the qty of leftover centre cut-outs from the gasket sheet matches the number of fittings? :Lol:
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These are exactly the things that are the icing on the cake!
A lot of details take a lot of work but the result looks good.
Greetings Michael :cheers:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Which of the shop elves has the job of checking the qty of leftover centre cut-outs from the gasket sheet matches the number of fittings? :Lol:
The one who stole my beer last night!
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These are exactly the things that are the icing on the cake!
A lot of details take a lot of work but the result looks good.
Greetings Michael :cheers:
Thanks Michael! You are right, details that draw the eye in more and more to find more details... :cheers:
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The pipe elbows and simpling valve are bolted up with gaskets on the IP steam chest. Lots and lots of small screws to run in with the open end wrench one flat at a time. :insane:
(https://i.postimg.cc/V6KWM5z5/IMG-4160.jpg)
And couldn't resist bolting it on to the cylinder to see how it all looks!
(https://i.postimg.cc/2y3Fxm5G/IMG-4161.jpg)
Really getting a feel for how its all going to look, quite pleased with the effect so far, even though the steam and exhaust pipes will cover much of this side of the engine. It did remind me that I still need to make ANOTHER short pair of pipe extensions to bring the elbows on the HP valve out even with the rest of them, so the pipes run parallel to the crankshaft. The bottom pipe from the HP valve does need a slight curve in it since the steam chests are slightly shorter.
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Looking absolutely amazing Chris!!
Dave
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simpling valve
Seems like a contradiction with respect to this build!
(disclosure: I do know what it really is) :cheers:
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Looking absolutely amazing Chris!!
Dave
Thanks Dave!
simpling valve
Seems like a contradiction with respect to this build!
(disclosure: I do know what it really is) :cheers:
This build could use some simpling! :Lol:
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Aw, gee, I need to keep playing in the shop! :cartwheel:
'At'll learn ya to build a model of a 4 cylinder triple expansion steam engine. At least you aren't also modeling the condenser and all the gew-gaws and doo-dads associated with it.
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Aw, gee, I need to keep playing in the shop! :cartwheel:
'At'll learn ya to build a model of a 4 cylinder triple expansion steam engine. At least you aren't also modeling the condenser and all the gew-gaws and doo-dads associated with it.
Dodged all those bullets! :Jester:
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Got the short extension pipes made for the HP elbows, they are all installed with gaskets. Also made a blanking plate to go on the lower IP inlet, so I can hook up an air line to the upper inlet later on when timing the IP valve. And made the dummy Lovekin valve towers for the three steam chests.
(https://i.postimg.cc/MTNKsMJv/IMG-4164.jpg)
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Starting to get crowded up there.
Looks great.
Ron
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Thanks Ron! Definitely crowded, hard to get the wrench in some of the places.
Got a start on the valve rod glands and guides, if you can call cutting some bar stock to rough length a start! :Lol: Also made up a template for the valve rod guides, so some cardboard 'swarf' on the table...
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so some cardboard 'swarf' on the table...
Do the elves even bother with that stuff when they're recycling the brass swarf for beer money? Or do they just leave it behind?
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so some cardboard 'swarf' on the table...
Do the elves even bother with that stuff when they're recycling the brass swarf for beer money? Or do they just leave it behind?
They try and toss it over into my mug... :facepalm2:
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This morning I turned up the valve glands, simple little o ring holders link on the HP cylinder. As I was test fitting things to see if it was ready to start milling out the valve guides, I was noticing how heavy it all was. So, temporarily mounted the steam chest cover, grabbed the valve slider and the cylinder cap, and took it over to the scale. The IP cylinder assembly, still without the piston, valve rod guide, the cap extension, and a lot of screws, is already 9.6 pounds! With the rest of the model at 44.5 pounds at last weigh-in, that puts the total up to 54.1 pounds even before adding the rest of the IP parts. Thats more than I was expecting, I guessed about 5 or 6 pounds for the cylinder assembly. Better start feeding the shop elves more vitamins!
Here is a shot of the parts so far... At the left side of the cylinder cap, you can see the port in the top of the steam chest (long narrow slot) that the cap has to be extended over the top of. Also, down on the table, in the lower left, is the cardboard template for the valve rod guides, shaped sorta like a big H. These extend down around the block in the center of the reverse links, keeping the lower end of the valve rod in place when the reverse links move front to back to change direction.
(https://i.postimg.cc/1R25ZY72/IMG-4165.jpg)
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The blanks for the valve rod guides have been sawn out of some thick flat bar, and I've started to trim the profile down, starting with the 'feet' where they will bolt to the bottom of the steam chests. The saw cuts down the inside edges will save milling time, just need to drill across the bottom of those areas to free the extra. The sawn off chunks are in the 'scrap' bin waiting for something to need bars that size.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Kvs9fwfq/IMG-4166.jpg)
I'll set them up on the rotary table tooling plate to do the next stages of shaping the profiles. The long sides get thinned down away from the little crossbar too.
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Nice to see you making "castings" again.
Michael
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Nice to see you making "castings" again.
Michael
That casting sand gets everywhere! :Jester: Its interesting how I got started with machining (LONG time ago) just with a lathe, and now it seems like most of the time I am playing on the mill.
:cheers:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Don't forget the full aluminized NFPA fire suit when making your "castings" there at The Net Zero Foundry , Plant 1. :Lol:
PS might cause some fun reactions from the shop elves if you could find an alarm horn from the tap floor of a blast furnace and sound it periodically....might be a few at Bethlehem Steel historic site in Philly!
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Don't forget the full aluminized NFPA fire suit when making your "castings" there at The Net Zero Foundry , Plant 1. :Lol:
PS might cause some fun reactions from the shop elves if you could find an alarm horn from the tap floor of a blast furnace and sound it periodically....might be a few at Bethlehem Steel historic site in Philly!
Yeah, that reminds me, about time to hook up the steam whistle to the air compressor and set it under their beds again... :LittleDevil:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Don't forget the full aluminized NFPA fire suit when making your "castings" there at The Net Zero Foundry , Plant 1. :Lol:
PS might cause some fun reactions from the shop elves if you could find an alarm horn from the tap floor of a blast furnace and sound it periodically....might be a few at Bethlehem Steel historic site in Philly!
Yeah, that reminds me, about time to hook up the steam whistle to the air compressor and set it under their beds again... :LittleDevil:
You guys play dirty with your elves! No wonder they cause you so many problems! :lolb:
Kim
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... that puts the total up to 54.1 pounds even before adding the rest of the IP parts.
This is going to be yet another MASSIVE engine, Chris! Will it get to 100lbs? Or will it top out at a mere 80lbs? :Lol:
Kim
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... that puts the total up to 54.1 pounds even before adding the rest of the IP parts.
This is going to be yet another MASSIVE engine, Chris! Will it get to 100lbs? Or will it top out at a mere 80lbs? :Lol:
Kim
Originally I was guessing about 50 or 55 pounds, going to blow past that pretty fast. Sounds like that 80 pounds is a pretty good guestimate! Lighter than the Holly and Marion models anyway. At least I don't have to move it right away (don't know where its going to go anyway, more shelf re-arranging this winter/spring!)
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Profiling the valve rod guides is under way on the rotary table...
(https://i.postimg.cc/q7qqHmC5/IMG-4167.jpg)
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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I keep looking at the size of the "model" parts and wondering how much of a job it was to move them on the full size engine just fighting the force of gravity. I'll bet the just barring engine would have been a significant sized model. You gonna make a working barring engine for this beast?
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I keep looking at the size of the "model" parts and wondering how much of a job it was to move them on the full size engine just fighting the force of gravity. I'll bet the just barring engine would have been a significant sized model. You gonna make a working barring engine for this beast?
The original plans show the outline of the barring engine, but no details. One sheet has details for a different barring engine on another ship that could be copied since its close. The problem is the pistons would be teensy, no way would it be able to turn this engine even with the gearing. So am going to leave it off.
:cheers:
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And the lower inside ends of the arms are all taken to width, ready to do the upper inside ends before starting to thin down and shape the outer corners. Another day or two should see these ready to go on the steam chests.
(https://i.postimg.cc/3R68gp9f/IMG-4168.jpg)
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As ever struggling to keep up but enjoying the amazing progress :praise2: :praise2: :wine1: :wine1:
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As ever struggling to keep up but enjoying the amazing progress :praise2: :praise2: :wine1: :wine1:
Thanks Roger! I'm having a lot of fun with this one.
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More shaping on the valve rod guides, next was to trim the lower ends of the arms narrower on one side
(https://i.postimg.cc/V67Lsq1G/IMG-4169.jpg)
then the other. The finger clamp made it easy to hold the parts, with some screws in the top just behind the clamping screws to register the end on.
(https://i.postimg.cc/wMZqL91D/IMG-4170.jpg)
Then used a smaller end mill to recess the outer corners of the arms to make them T shaped
(https://i.postimg.cc/8cjk77z1/IMG-4171.jpg)
The ends of the arms are narrower to fit between the reverse links. Still need to shape them on the other side of the crossbar, and drill through the crossbar to make room for the valve rod itself, and drill mounting holes in the 'feet'.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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A bunch to show today. Got the valve rod guides finished up, milled the sides of the base area down:
(https://i.postimg.cc/xTDJxbnw/IMG-4172.jpg)
milled the openings for the rods to go through and drilled the mounting holes
(https://i.postimg.cc/JzRymVyK/IMG-4173.jpg)
Here is the IP guide bolted up to the steam chest, and the cylinder set on the engine to show where it goes through the reverse link:
(https://i.postimg.cc/90T4Xctg/IMG-4174.jpg)
On to the extension for the IP cylinder cap, so that the cap covers the upper port on the steam chest. The ones on the real engine had the extension cast in, I'm piecing it up. First step is to mill back the side of the cap. I'm leaving the metal at the level of the flange, it will make it much easier to hold for soldering on the extension. The cap was bolted back down to the faceplate used to turn it in the first place.
(https://i.postimg.cc/gkVwfk0n/IMG-4175.jpg)
The location of the extension was marked out on the faceplate, and those marks used to align the blank for the extension, so a recess could be milled in to match the flange on the cap:
(https://i.postimg.cc/tTsZf31j/IMG-4176.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/4dj7TYth/IMG-4177.jpg)
Testing the fit of the cap, needs to match the radius of the recess and the vertical flats too.
(https://i.postimg.cc/4dj7TYth/IMG-4177.jpg)
Once that looked good, the extension was taken off the faceplate. I'll drill a few holes through the flange and into the extension to hold them together for silver soldering. Here is how it looks so far. After soldering, the extension will be milled further to form the flange around the perimeter and to blend in the tops. The side of the exnsion away from the cap also gets curved back inwards to clear the Lovekin valve tower.
(https://i.postimg.cc/v86xtvF7/IMG-4178.jpg)
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Nice valve rod guide! :popcorn: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
You're still making pretty major changes to these subassemblies! Somehow, I thought you were abut done with the major parts. Still going strong though! :Lol:
Great work, Chris!
Kim
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Nice valve rod guide! :popcorn: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
You're still making pretty major changes to these subassemblies! Somehow, I thought you were abut done with the major parts. Still going strong though! :Lol:
Great work, Chris!
Kim
I thought so too - this engine has lots more parts than it looks at first glance, mainly due to how big everything is. At least the final two cylinders will go quicker since I am making three of all these common parts. Going to be some real eye candy when its done though!
:cheers: :cheers:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Thanks Jeff! :cheers:
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This amazing project is way beyond what my mind can cope with :praise2: :praise2:
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This amazing project is way beyond what my mind can cope with :praise2: :praise2:
Thanks SCC!
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Chris, all your work is amazing but this project is right at the top of the list. Any idea where you are with time?
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Chris, all your work is amazing but this project is right at the top of the list. Any idea where you are with time?
Hi George,
Time? Never enough! :Jester:
I have not been keeping track of hours, that would make it too much like work rather than play. I started in August 2022, so that makes about 15 months so far. Typically I play in the shop for 2 or 3 hours in the morning, another couple in the afternoon most days, especially in the winter. Some days no shop time, some more. Going with average of 2.5 hours thats 1125 hours so far. That guess could be way off.
:cheers:
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This morning the cap and extension block were silver soldered together, with two temporary screws through the old flange holding them together. The solder seemed to flow well into the joint, so it should be good. Once it cools down it will go into the pickle solution for a good soak. It was a lot of mass to heat up (second biggest torch nozzle needed), so it will take a while to cool, even with the colder temps outside this week. While waiting, I've started prepping the stock for the piston head, and could start on the valve rod too.
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Hi Chris , looking good and here is a photo from a FB Page ?!!!
Willy
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Very interesting picture Willy! Just looked up that company, they built lots of stationary Corliss engines for factories, and also a lot of marine triple expansion engines for ships. That one looks a lot like the ones in Liberty ships, but some differences so I don't think it is one of those.
:cheers:
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While waiting for the cylinder cap to clean up, I got started roughing the IP piston head out of some flat bar - too big for any round bar I have left.
(https://i.postimg.cc/KvXSswJY/IMG-4179.jpg)
Just pulled the cap out and washed/brushed it off. Top view:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Yq1KcRsz/IMG-4180.jpg)
and bottom
(https://i.postimg.cc/wjgK9JK8/IMG-4181.jpg)
Looks like good solder flow through the joint, so next will set up to mill off the screw heads and flatten off the solder bumps on the joint. Then can mill in the large passage between the extension and the center of the cap on the bottom side. Finally start milling off the top end to form the new flange on the extension, and get holes drilled/tapped through the flange and into the steam chest. Lots to do!
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Looking great Chris!
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Looking great Chris!
Thanks Jeff!!
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Major progress on the IP cylinder cap. With it mounted on the faceplate, on the rotary table, the outer end was milled back in steps to form the flange
(https://i.postimg.cc/wTv088kp/IMG-4182.jpg)
Down the sides also, and trimmed the top of the extension down to match the level of the rim on the cap
(https://i.postimg.cc/QMLbTBZ8/IMG-4183.jpg)
That left the join to the angled part of the cap with a small step (blue arrows)
(https://i.postimg.cc/HnSzcBdR/IMG-4184.jpg)
so used the comopund slide on the lathe to trim it all level
(https://i.postimg.cc/9Qwb0dSg/IMG-4185.jpg)
Back to the mill to drill the mounting holes in the new flange. Drilled these with the tap size for now, so they can be used as drill guides into the steam chest. Then the flange holes will be drilled out to clearance size. You can also see in this picture how the clearance arc was milled in to the middle of the flange, to give it room for the Lovekin valve tower.
(https://i.postimg.cc/dQn4xtr6/IMG-4187.jpg)
Final milling step was to cut in the passage for the steam, to take it from the top port in the steam chest over to the cylinder.
(https://i.postimg.cc/KvHQmq9g/IMG-4189.jpg)
I'll mix up some epoxy to fill in the remaining holes in the flange across the joint to the extension - not really needed, but it will make it cleaner, and we'll know its there! While that is setting up, I can stare at the parts and the mill and figure out how to hold the cylinder assembly to drill these final holes for the new flange. :thinking:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Nice work Chris!
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Great work Chris! Lots of steps to get that odd-shaped steam passage on the cylinder cap but it will pay off with the smooth transition between the pieces. You'll never be able to tell it was fabricated when you get the paint on :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
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Thanks guys!
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Just noticed that I forgot a picture in the previous post, showing the cap back on the cylinder:
(https://i.postimg.cc/3Nr9xP52/IMG-4190.jpg)
I worked out how to hold the cylinder for drilling the last of the cap mounting holes, put the wider tooling plate on the mill table since the legs on the cylinder are so wide spread, and used a couple of hold downs to secure it. Found several blocks to make up the height differences between the legs, rear column, and bottom of the steam chest so it would sit level and resist the pressure from the drilling.
(https://i.postimg.cc/RVtq0G9D/IMG-4191.jpg)
Used the tap size drill in the new holes in the cap flange, which were also drilled tap size just for this, as drill guides. Adjusted the mill table X/Y till the drill just slipped into the existing holes without rubbing, and drilled down into the steam chest. Had to keep track of the depth so it wouldn't break through and mar the valve face.
(https://i.postimg.cc/8k9jDx8v/IMG-4192.jpg)
Then drilled out the cap holes to clearance size on the little drill press, and got the new holes all tapped.
So, the cap extension is all good to go, though it reminded me that I need to make up another big batch of studs/nuts. I had cut enough of the threaded rod for all the studs when doing the ones for the HP cylinder, but I need to loctite on the nuts to turn them into studs that I can just run in with the nut driver. If there were only the normal 8 or 12 studs, I'd loctite the studs into the cylinder, but with 60 or so that makes getting the gasket and cap on and off a real pain in the shop gnome. So, this way works out a lot better. I'll also mix up some epoxy to fill the screw holes left in the steam chest top and sides from other fixtures, so they come up level when its all painted. Overall a very productive day in the shop!
:cheers:
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Sorry for saying so - but to me it is such a strange shape, until the first picture in this post ....
Seeing it 'In Situ' and it just makes total sense + looks the part and great too :praise2:
Per :cheers: :popcorn:
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Sorry for saying so - but to me it is such a strange shape, until the first picture in this post ....
Seeing it 'In Situ' and it just makes total sense + looks the part and great too :praise2:
Per :cheers: :popcorn:
I agree, its definitely not the normal cylinder cap! On the original engine the cap has a nicely curved internal passage over the side of the cylinder and into the steam chest. Everything seems shaped for free flow of massive volumes of steam.
That reminds me again, I still need to make the passage connector for the bottom of the chest to the cylinder!
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Looking good, Chris! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
That reminds me again, I still need to make the passage connector for the bottom of the chest to the cylinder!
Yeah, it wouldn't run very well if you forgot that! :ROFL:
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Looking good, Chris! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
That reminds me again, I still need to make the passage connector for the bottom of the chest to the cylinder!
Yeah, it wouldn't run very well if you forgot that! :ROFL:
Half a revolution, then a big whooshing sound, might have given it away. Eventually! :Lol: One time I was having a heck of a time getting a cylinder to work right, lots of timing adjustments and tests, finally realized on taking the cap off that I had forgotten to put a hole in the gasket over the port... :facepalm2: :wallbang:
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Got the bottom connector passage/pipe/thingy made this morning, bolts to the bottom/side of the steam chest over the port there, and to the bottom cylinder cap where I drilled another port. Gaskets under each position.
(https://i.postimg.cc/rs12Gs8X/IMG-4193.jpg)
Also assembled enough studs/nuts for the IP cylinder cap from the cup full of studs, still enough to go for the other two cylinders. Each nut is held in place with a dab of red loctite.
(https://i.postimg.cc/cCyN8wGB/IMG-4194.jpg)
So, whats left? Made up a list:- gasket for upper cap
- valve rod and adjusting nut
- lap the valve slider
- piston head
- piston rod/nut (bottom end already on engine, top needs trimming to length and threading for the nut)
- starting valve pipes/connections
- air hose fitting to connect to IP cylinder directly for timing/testing
- install small air gauge on steam chest (hole already there, needs thread tape/install)
- paint cylinder assembly
- celebrate another cylinder done!
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I'm never going to complain about to many nuts and bolts :cheers:
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finally realized on taking the cap off that I had forgotten to put a hole in the gasket over the port...
Too few holes is usually pretty easy to find. It's the extra holes causing internal leaks that can be a bear to find.
I once spent an entire shift trying to determine why a test stand was failing EVERY part. We eventually tracked it down to a hole that had been drilled too deep. It was still within tolerance, but combined with marginal castings, the hole had broken through, every part WAS bad.
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That to-do list got a bit shorter after lunch - made up the cylinder cap gasket, then found the air hose/end fitting that I had already made for the HP cylinder, fits the elbow on the IP cylinder too. The starting valve connection/blanking plate I don't need at this point since the globe valve is already on the flange there, and I can just close the valve! :wallbang: So, one thing done, three things crossed off the list! :)
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One more item off the list - the valve rod. Threaded hole at the base to take the reverse link pivot fitting that was made back with the one for the HP cylinder, top end threaded to take a length of 6-32 threaded rod. Next will be the adjusting nut and lapping the valve slider.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Sx4201jk/IMG-4195.jpg)
The list is shrinking fast - piston head and nut will be the last big pieces to make before painting and assembly/timing!
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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The adjusting nut is made, simple rectangle with a threaded hole in it...
(https://i.postimg.cc/QxMKJ805/IMG-4196.jpg)
And back to finishing up the piston head, which I had roughed down the other day while waiting for the cap to clean up after soldering. Got the groove for the o-ring cut and seems to be a good fit in the cylinder, can only run it in a fraction of an inch till the rest of the piston head is turned.
(https://i.postimg.cc/rw0d7h6w/IMG-4197.jpg)
With it still in the chuck, the piston rod hole was drilled/bored - drilled undersize then bored through to 1/4", counterbored to .4" for the shoulder of the piston rod. Then set up the compound slide to relieve the underside of the head - remember that these pistons are cone-shaped, with the bottom of the cylinder sticking up in the center, and the cap relieved to match.
(https://i.postimg.cc/BQwLhrVz/IMG-4199.jpg)
Next step is to turn the part around and shape the top side...
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Like the small valve with the big nut! Looking forward to seeing the other side turning on the piston. :cheers:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Like the small valve with the big nut! Looking forward to seeing the other side turning on the piston. :cheers:
Small valve? Its bigger than a lot of cylinders I've made! It was made by a big nut though! :Lol:
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Wow, Chris! I can see why they put a Lovkin valve in there to help offset the weight of that thing! :o
Are you sure you're not going to need an actual Lovekin to help out? Will you be able to get away with just a stand in? :thinking:
Kim
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Wow, Chris! I can see why they put a Lovkin valve in there to help offset the weight of that thing! :o
Are you sure you're not going to need an actual Lovekin to help out? Will you be able to get away with just a stand in? :thinking:
Kim
Yup - the valve slider on the model looks like a big thick heavy slab, but after cutting all the ports and passages, its pretty much hollowed out and only weighs about 6 or 7 ounces. But, I guess I'll find out soon! I could always drill some holes in the back in the solid areas to lighten it some more. Making a working lovekin valve that is only 1/4" diameter, adjustable for force, would be pretty tough!
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Good progress!
I could imagine that the large slider needs a little pressure from a spring from behind. A pressure spring from the lid. So that it is pressed against the slideway.
Michael
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Dog your life a machine none stop. Awesome work like a true artist…. Did I say I…………likeeeeeee….. :Love:
:drinking-41:
Don
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Good progress!
I could imagine that the large slider needs a little pressure from a spring from behind. A pressure spring from the lid. So that it is pressed against the slideway.
Michael
The original had a spring loaded ring to reduce the surface area under pressure and also to hold it in place when the steam was off. On the model there will be very little clearance to the cover, hoping at worst there is a slight leak as pressure comes up but it wont be able to separate much. I'll find out soon!
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Dog your life a machine none stop. Awesome work like a true artist…. Did I say I…………likeeeeeee….. :Love:
:drinking-41:
Don
Thanks Don! :cheers:
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Turned down the top side of the piston head, and have gotten a prime coat on the cylinder parts, should be able to put a color coat on tomorrow.
Just weighed the IP cylinder assembly - 10.8 pounds. That brings the total for the model up to 55.3 pounds so far, not counting any of the parts for the two LP cylinders. Yikes! :paranoia:
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This going to be a masterpiece!
.......as well as adding the the worlds shortage of brass !!
Fantastic job, very interesting to see how you approached the design and build.
Would be good to have a subtle hidden electric motor that could drive the engine on the odd occasions to watch it all in motion. Seems you will need a 3 phase 415v supply though to drive that monster!
Keep up the good work
Regards
Derek
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It's already an incredible impressive model, but when it's completed and running it's going to be jaw dropping. What's really amazing to me is that this model is a product of a Sherline mill and lathe. I think it's going to outweigh them both when it's completed! :)
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Derek, I have a very quiet air compressor, a used commercial unit, that is as loud as a refrigerator. I'll use that to drive this engine on compressed air so no need for an electric motor. I use the same setup for my other models.
:cheers:
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It's already an incredible impressive model, but when it's completed and running it's going to be jaw dropping. What's really amazing to me is that this model is a product of a Sherline mill and lathe. I think it's going to outweigh them both when it's completed! :)
Just looked it up on sherlines website, each machine is 34 pounds, so this engine will definitely outweigh both together!
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Got a start on the color coats on the cylinder assembly this morning. While waiting on those coats, the piston head top side was turned down to shape, again a cone shape with a flat top:
(https://i.postimg.cc/KYpjvV6T/IMG-4200.jpg)
Also made up the large steel nuts to hold the heads to the piston rod. The rod length will be set after the cylinder is done painting and back on the engine and bolted down, so I can take actual measurements of the travel and set the piston head position. The top end will be turned to a sholder to be a close fit on the piston head, with a threaded section at the end for the nut.
Then got the valve slider lapped, using wet paper stuck to a piece of flat float glass made for sharpening/lapping. Most woodworker supply places sell it. This picture shows why lapping the flat bar stock is so important. Mainly, flat stock isn't!
(https://i.postimg.cc/ydJdJjKb/IMG-4201.jpg)
This is after a bit of lapping done, enough to take down most of the little scratches and such, but you can still see an area that has not been touched yet in the upper right, circled in green. Without lapping, that area would have been a pressure leak all the way down the side of the valve, through at least three ports. The sides of the original bar were milled off, corners of bar stock are typically rounded and dip down away from the corners.
Here is the valve after more time lapping (fancy word for sanding against a flat surface), that area is about gone, ready for the next grit up for final polishing:
(https://i.postimg.cc/bJKv1nNN/IMG-4202.jpg)
With the lapping done, I also got the pipes for the simpling/starting valve rough cut to length, the straight sections I left a little long till they can be marked for final length against the cylinders.
The painting should be done this afternoon, and tomorrow I'll start assembly and get the piston rod finished. Once its assembled, I'll be able to apply some pressure to the IP cylinder by itself to get it timed! :cartwheel: After that, more pipe work between it and the HP cylinder. Probably wont do much running of both together, the HP and IP cranks are 180 degrees out, so it won't run any smoother than the HP did alone. The two LP cranks are at 90 degrees to these two, so the real running of the engine comes after those cylinders are done, really looking forward to that!
Oh, and once the IP cylinder is on, the stay rods between it and the HP cylinder can go on.
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Great looking work / parts Chris :ThumbsUp:
.... after more time lapping (fancy word for sanding against a flat surface) ....
I would have sworn that I had Lapped a Crank-Shaft and other Circular Objects + you Lap a Piston to the Cylinder on a Compression Ignition (Diesel) Model Engine, with Diamond-Paste (or Time-Saver) ....
So are you telling Us/Me that we/I use the Term/Word wrong ...? ;)
Per :cheers:
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Great looking work / parts Chris :ThumbsUp:
.... after more time lapping (fancy word for sanding against a flat surface) ....
I would have sworn that I had Lapped a Crank-Shaft and other Circular Objects + you Lap a Piston to the Cylinder on a Compression Ignition (Diesel) Model Engine, with Diamond-Paste (or Time-Saver) ....
So are you telling Us/Me that we/I use the Term/Word wrong ...? ;)
Per :cheers:
Nope - you are 100% correct! Lapping is done on rounds too. I brain-farted on that one, was concentrated on doing the flat valve surfaces too much!
Time to break for lunch!
:cheers:
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You must have forgotten about my Uncle Timo Saaver in Lapland, he's my go-to on all lapping matters! :Lol: :shrug:
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:lolb: :lolb: :lolb:
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Quite a busy day or so - started fitting things up yesterday afternoon, and got a lot more progress this morning. First up was to get the cylinder bolted down on the engine frames, needed a thin shim on the aft side of the main column to get the piston running true in the bore, amazing how a few thou of shim moves the side of the cylinder when its this large a diameter. The piston is moving nicely, and holding my hand over the top of the bore shows quite a bit of compression/suction.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Wz6MNHK0/IMG-4205.jpg)
Then came timing the valve slider. That took a few tries, had to shorten the valve rod a little to get it to center properly, then some adjustments on the eccentrics to time the port openings against TDC/BDC on the crank. That seems to be sorted as well now.
(https://i.postimg.cc/SRp6phZy/IMG-4204.jpg)
Then spent a while with adding pressure from the compressor into one of the inlet ports on the steam chest (bypassing the HP cylinder, so I can see what the IP is doing by itself). Found a few leaks and have been chasing those. First was in the simpling valve, it is not closing all the way. I tried swapping the valve stem with the ones from the other valves, same leak, so there must be a flaw in the valve seat. I'll have to take that valve off to chase that down, so to keep focused on the IP cylinder itself I made a little blanking plate for that valve for now, I'll come back to it after the rest is set.
Next found that I needed a few more screws around the cap and steam chest to compress the gasket evenly, that got rid of a few more raspberries it was blowing my way! That got enough of a seal around the top of the cylinder that I got first movement - the piston drops down nicely after coming over top dead center. :cartwheel: There is still a small leak at the top corners of the steam chest, a little sealant on those joints on the inside should solve those.
The last big leak is somewhere around the bottom end of the steam chest, when the crank goes past BDC and the inlet valve ports for the bottom of the cylinder open, there is a leak somewhere behind the chest. I'm suspecting the bottom passage fitting, leading from the chest over to the bottom cap on the cylinder. Solving that one will involve pulling the cylinder back off again I think, since its all up underneath the cylinder and too close to the crosshead to get fingers in there. That means taking off all the mounting bolts to the frames, and taking off the nut at the bottom of the piston rod, and sliding the reverse links out (they are easy, one bolt at the end and the links can be rotated forward on the eccentric, off the bottom of the valve rod, without disturbing the timing.
That sounds like a good job for after lunch! Overall, not bad given how many parts are in this subassembly. With the cylinder back off the model, I can do more testing with it on the bench and get the rest of the leaks solved. Great news is that the valve slider is sealing well, and the eccentrics have no problem moving it up and down. The gap between the back of the slider and the cover is small, and as pressure was applied the slider snapped down on the valve face very quickly, there is less than a millimeter of gap there.
Thanks for following along, more later! :cheers: Here are a couple pictures of the cylinder on the model, in paint:
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZYrPxWR0/IMG-4208.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/wTgXf9y2/IMG-4209.jpg)
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Good luck with the leak detection. :cheers:
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Thanks Jeff!
And, found it once I got the cylinder off the frame (that turned out very easy, took the screws out of the base mounts and the whole assembly lifted off).
With the cylinder on its side on the bench, applied pressure, and with the standard leak detection tool, a Q-tip dipped in water and pushed around the seams, discovered the location as two screw holes that I had drilled in the steam chest back for mounting the bottom passage but never actually used! :wallbang: I was going to use them to help hold the passage on, but it turned out they were not really needed. I had forgotten that they went through into the inner passage, so now there is a nice pair of 2-56 sized leaks! :hammerbash: All I need to do is run in a couple short screws with some sealant and those will be fixed. Not easy to get to as is, I will need to unscrew the steam chest from the cylinder, but thats just four bolts. I'll also seal up the two minor seaps at the upper corners that I found this morning, and retest the chest for leaks before putting the cylinder back on.
CORRECTION: Took the steam chest off the base to get at those holes, and they were NOT holes, they were just the spot drill indents that I had made before deciding that I did not need those holes! The actual issue is right next to them though - the gasket to the connecting passage had blown out there, it was too narrow and didn't have enough clamping force on it. So, am remaking that gasket to correct the issue. No new parts or screws needed...
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Redid the gasket on the bottom connector pipe, it failed in a different way. Time to redo that connector after all, more like I was originally planning before I took a shortcut. At least I did not make that part for the other two cylinders yet, so what I learn from this one will carry over to when I make them. Not a big deal, learning as I go! The other fixes worked out fine, so still moving forward overall.
:cheers:
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Some more mods, testing, fiddling - the usual stuff on first test on new cylinders. Got the bottom connector fixed without remaking it, added two more screws to hold it level, also found that when I had milled away a portion at one edge to clear another part that I didn't go quite far enough, making it tilt when tightening down on the gasket. That was the main issue, the bottom pipe is sealing well now! :cartwheel:
So, that leave finding the problem with the simpling valve not sealing well, should not be too hard to find, the seat or the cone, or both, need to be checked and tweaked.
One larger issue has come up though. On the original engine, as on many large ones, they made the slide valves balanced, with a seal ring on the outer face against the cover, with a small vent to the outside through the cover, to reduce the surface area of the slider exposed to steam. That reduces the force of the steam on the slider against the valve face. I had thought that the model was small enough not to bother with, but when I'm testing at around 40 psi the slider gets really really hard to move. Did the math (finally), and there is about 6-1/2 square inches of surface to the slider. At 40 psi, thats 260 pounds of pressure! :paranoia: No wonder its tough to move. Even at a lower pressure input, the numbers go up fast. Need to rethink that decision! I've never made a balanced D valve before, though the mechanics of it are pretty simple. Thinking that adding an o-ring groove and ring on the top surface of the slider, and a tiny hole in the cover, would do the trick and be the simplest addition. Tough part is getting the groove depth just right so it gives a reasonable seal without binding or leaking too much. Any of you ever make a balanced valve? An adjustable setup would need more space between the slider and the cap, with a two piece ring like the original had. A metal ring rather than a rubber o ring would be less friction, but could leak more. Hmmmm... Need cookies, whiteboard, and some time with ElfBert Einstein... :noidea: Suggestions welcome!
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Lots of good detective work there, Chris! :popcorn: :popcorn:
I don't have any good advice, but I am rooting for you from the peanut gallery! Go, Chris, Go!
And that IS a surprising amount of pressure on that valve. Looking forward to learning from your experience here.
Kim
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I wonder if something like these might work well:
https://www.theoringstore.com/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=367_2205_829
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I wonder if something like these might work well:
https://www.theoringstore.com/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=367_2205_829 (https://www.theoringstore.com/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=367_2205_829)
Thats the type of O ring I use, lots of what I have came from there. I have a box of assorted sizes already, the question is how to apply them in this case...
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Was watching TV, and a thought perked up out of the back corner of the brain (if brains have corners?)
An alternative to getting a balanced valve slider to reduce the pressure, what if I just ran the engine at a low pressure? :thinking: When testing the HP cylinder, I had to run the pressure up quite a ways to get it to carry the crankshaft around the top/bottom centers without a flywheel, but that had the engine running way way faster than I'd want to for demonstration running. Having the engine just ticking over slowly would be wonderful, all those parts dancing away. And given the size of the pistons, would it really need much pressure? I recall when I first got all the crossheads hooked up so they would spin with the crankshaft, that I could keep it spinning like a two fisted version of a finger engine, alternately pushing down on each crosshead in sequence. It didn't take that much pressure, though that was without any pistons/cylinders/compression in the way. But it got me thinking (sometimes dangerous, sometimes fruitful).
So, I just went back in the shop and turned on the air to find out at what pressure the slide valve got really hard to move. I already knew that 40 psi was at the impossible to move end of the scale, and it turned out that when I got down to 10 psi it was not bad, anything under that was easy. Is that enough to run the engine at though? Moving the valve rod back and forth by hand (the cylinder is still off the engine), the piston moved back and forth at a nice steady pace, not so hard that it was slamming end to end, mainly limited by the air flow through the pressure valve and pipes.
Okay, thats promising. Then hooked up the line from the HP cylinder to the compressor line, still at 10 psi, and turned the crank over by hand past top/bottom centers. It still moved the crank around at a reasonable bench-running speed! :cartwheel: And that was with just the smallest piston, the HP, hooked up. When assembled, there will be both the HP and IP pistons working together, 180 apart so effectively one. The two LP pistons will also be 180 from each other, 90 from the HP/IP ones. Seems to me that it should work just fine as long as I dont want to run at high speed, which I don't. When I was on the Liberty Ship this fall (video posted here on the forum), the engines were turning about once per second or 60 RPM, and that was mesmerizing to watch. Having the model run at that speed would be great, and from what I am seeing in this test it will be able to do that at only 5 or 10 psi of air, as long as I can use the simpling valves to augment the compounding, which is not great on just air.
Bottom line, I think I can get away without the balance feature on the slide valves. :pinkelephant: Much much simpler to do, if I can skip an un-necessary mechanism.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Glad to hear you won't need the 10,000 rpm rev limiter off one of them "tuned" poppin Honda's the kids run now, for the Ohio engine! :Lol:
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This morning got the remaining leaks on the steam chest identified and sealed, and cleaned up the valve seat on the simpling valve. While the sealant is curing up, I'll skip ahead a bit and make up the batch of nuts needed for the horizontal and angled stay rods...
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oooh, back to them angled stay rods!!!! :cheers:
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oooh, back to them angled stay rods!!!! :cheers:
Yup! Remembered them this time! :Lol:
Making up enough of the thick nuts for all the angled plus horizontal stays, two at each end of each rod, by my count thats 44 total. Correction: 56.
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Great news on the leak front, all seem to be solved! :whoohoo: I did have to swap out the simpling valve for one of the other two, this one will need some rework on the valve stem, it looks like the cone at the end is off center slightly so it doesn't seal. The replacement one is fine. Quite a lot done in the last few days. And redone. Learned a few things that I'll include on the other two cylinders so they should go smoother.
Have gotten the cylinder parts all re-assembled, with some grease/oil on the moving internal parts. Over 100 screws to seal it all up, really don't want to do that again. Oh, wait, two more cylinders with just as many... :Lol:
With all the extra handling, some of the corners got paint scraped off, so the cylinder is down in the paint dungeon getting a light respray to touch it up. I'll get it assembled back on the model late this afternoon, most likely.
Yesterday I got all the nuts for the stay rods on all the cylinders made from some hex stainless bar. I'll get a start on cutting and threading the ends of the stay rods while waiting on the paint, at least the ones for this cylinder, the ones for the other two will have to wait till they are made and I can measure actual distances.
Pictures after its all assembled back on the model! :cheers:
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Still watching in amazement at the speed this is coming along even with the slight hiccups great workmanship I must get and do some more on my engine
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Still watching in amazement at the speed this is coming along even with the slight hiccups great workmanship I must get and do some more on my engine
Thanks! For me, it seems like this project has been going on a really long time, and is not going that fast. Lots of fun, and lots to learn, thats all that matters to me.
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Thanks! For me, it seems like this project has been going on a really long time, and is not going that fast. Lots of fun, and lots to learn, thats all that matters to me.
I find this the same learning a lot and making mistakes which I am also learning from. No shop elves for me just gremlins that keep hiding things in plain sight
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Thanks! For me, it seems like this project has been going on a really long time, and is not going that fast. Lots of fun, and lots to learn, thats all that matters to me.
I find this the same learning a lot and making mistakes which I am also learning from. No shop elves for me just gremlins that keep hiding things in plain sight
Its when they hide things in plain sight, and stand off to the side laughing at me out loud when I can't find it...
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Picture time! Got the cylinder bolted back in place, ready to do final tweaks on the eccentric timing and then make/fit the stay rods. The forward direction eccentric needs to move just slightly, and I have not adjusted the reverse direction one at all, its just set roughly by eye. I hooked up the compressor line to just the IP cylinder, and gave it 20 psi, moves around well thoug a little slow since its having to push the HP around too. Quite a milestone! :whoohoo:
Here are some pictures of the HP and IP cylinders in place on the model, hopefully permenantly! Lots and Lots and LOTS of screws on the caps and covers. Amazing how different it looks with the paint on. The temporary air line is still in place in these pictures, it will be replaced with the pipes from the HP cylinder as soon as they are made after the stay rods.
(https://i.postimg.cc/pT00QqyF/IMG-4212.jpg)
View from the aft end showing the steam chest
(https://i.postimg.cc/vTc00f6S/IMG-4213.jpg)
And from the inboard side. That open pipe below the pressure gauge is from the simpling valve, it will get a Tee fitting, one side to the flange on the inlet pipe visible over on the left end, other side will lead to the LP cylinders. That vertical cylinder just to the left of that pipe is the reversing engine - that was made SO long ago now!
(https://i.postimg.cc/wMZ0ZMXx/IMG-4214.jpg)
Great place to break for the day, next time I'll tackle the remaing items: eccentric final timing, stay rods, and pipes. Sometime this coming week it will be on to the last two cylinders. Thanks for following along!
:cheers:
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All I can say is "WOW" ! Like you said ... it still needs two cylinders!
An incredible accomplishment !
:cheers:
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Absolutely gigantic.
And that's only half the engine.
In a hundred years people will ask themselves: How could this have been built by one man alone.
Nobody will be able to imagine that in the future.
(They print a steam engine from the 3D printer)
Michael :cheers:
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Thanks guys! Much appreciated.
This scale/type of engine keeps reminding me of when I was a kid and our family went to the Mariners Museum in Newport News Virginia. They had a model of a big ships engine, cutaway to show the pistons/gears/etc, with a button you could push to make it go around (electric motor). I was just fascinated! At the time, I was years away from doing any machining, was building wood ship models a lot and spent a really long time in the gallery there with the August Crabtree collection of miniature ships. If you ever get in that area, well worth a visit to that museum. Been years since I've been there, on my list to go back again.
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Excellent! Proper job as we Limeys say...
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Excellent! Proper job as we Limeys say...
Thanks! Toss me another Guinness, as we Yanks say (well, the ones with taste anyway). :DrinkPint:
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Wow, Chris! Just super cool! :popcorn: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
So great that you got all the leaks taken care of. It just looks stupendous!
Kim
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Wow, Chris! Just super cool! :popcorn: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
So great that you got all the leaks taken care of. It just looks stupendous!
Kim
Thanks Kim! Seems like that happens to me a lot, get real close then find a series of problems. Gotta have a word with my scriptwriter... :Lol:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Looking fantastic Chris! glad to hear you got the leaks fixed up. The paint does make an amazing difference, a great finishing touch for the subassemblies. Aren't you glad the shop elves joined the Stud and Nut of the Month club 32 years ago? If they hadn't, it would be a heck of a job making all those bits! :Lol:
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Great progress, Chris. :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :cheers:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Looking fantastic Chris! glad to hear you got the leaks fixed up. The paint does make an amazing difference, a great finishing touch for the subassemblies. Aren't you glad the shop elves joined the Stud and Nut of the Month club 32 years ago? If they hadn't, it would be a heck of a job making all those bits! :Lol:
Thanks Jeff! Though the elves think they are studly, I think they are just nuts! :Jester:
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Great progress, Chris. :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :cheers:
Thanks Ron!
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After a lot of threading, soldering of pipes, painting, and assembly, here is the IP cylinder at home on the engine! The two horizontal-ish pipes are the exhausts from the HP cylinder over to the IP steam chest, they double as receiver volume so this engine did not have dedicated receiver tanks. The plans don't show any indication of heating tubes on these pipes like are common on receiver tanks on later engines. You can also see the horizontal stay rods between the cylinders. Another set of these rods are on the opposite side of the cylinders.
(https://i.postimg.cc/3xvW4QhD/IMG-4215.jpg)
Closer look at the pipes at the IP end. The little brass nuts need a dab of paint still. The single elbow facing off to the left is the exhaust from the IP, this will later get a Y shaped pipe to go to the LP steam chest inlets, again acting also as receiver volume.
(https://i.postimg.cc/CKp5brMr/IMG-4216.jpg)
A look at the angled stay rods going from the outboard side of the engine frame up to the inboard side of the cylinders, these help stiffen the assembly against torque.
(https://i.postimg.cc/vm7Bh7cY/IMG-4217.jpg)
And a current family shot of everything so far. Major progress!
(https://i.postimg.cc/Y9pSs4W1/IMG-4218.jpg)
I did hook up the air line to the main inlet to drive both cylinders together, that all worked though I still need to do final tweaks on the IP eccentric timing, both need just a degree or so of adjustment to balance out the point at which the ports open at TDC. Thought I had a bad leak in the upper horizontal pipe, but it just turned out that I had not gotten the gasket at one end positioned properly, it had flexed back inside the pipe on one side. Easily sorted, and everything is sealed well (though all the full size engines I've seen run do have some minor wisps of steam here and there on the glands, we should be allowed scale versions of that!)
Great place to break for the day, tomorrow I'll do that timing tweak and put a couple dabs of paint on the pipe flange nuts. Looks like this week will see the start on the final two cylinders, which as you may recall are already partly done in same setups as was used for the first two. Still a lot to do on them.
Thanks for following along! Hmmm, need to get some cookies out of the freezer to thaw to help celebrate with...
:cheers: :cheers:
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two down, two to go,, looking great (as usual) :NotWorthy:
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Those large horizontal-ish pipes really add to the overall look of the engine. Very nice! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
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Thanks guys! The only thing I dont like about the pipes is on the LP end they do a great job of hiding the cylinders. But, they are part of the machine, so they have to be there. Making the Y pipe should be an interesting bit of milling and soldering.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :cheers:
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This morning, took a few minutes and tweaked the timing of the eccentrics on the IP cylinder. They only needed a degree or so of rotation on the shaft to correct the port opening, was opening just before top/bottom center rather than just after. Also gave the brass nuts on the pipes a dab of paint and touched up a few other scratches.
So, that means two cylinders down, two to go! A lot of the parts for the last two were made at the same time as the ones for the other cylinders, so I've got a good head start. Here are the parts set out by the engine - cylinders set in place on the frames, steam chests/valves down on the table. The LP cylinders will sit higher, even with the IP, when complete.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Cx86K0h2/IMG-4219.jpg)
In that picture you can see Captain Stew Pervisor inspecting the valves at the bottom. Closer look, as a reminder of the scale of this engine - Stew is correct scale for a person with this engine.
(https://i.postimg.cc/vmLqWv6L/IMG-4220.jpg)
First step will be to machine the sides of the cylinders to accept the inboard mounts, the rectangular blocks that hold them to the frames. Here is a shot of the first cylinder bolted up to the faceplate again, same setup was used to turn the outside of the cylinder blank. I asked the shop elves to hold up a 6 inch ruler in the picture, which they did, but they kept chanting "Shop Elves Rule!" :facepalm2:
(https://i.postimg.cc/KYypkW48/IMG-4223.jpg)
I'll get the vertical rotary table set up on the mill and start notching in the side to take the mounting blocks. This is a critical step, the depth of the cuts need to be right so that the center of the cylinder lines up with the piston rod when the blocks are bolted down. Some temp screws will hold the blocks to the cylinders for soldering.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Great to see it with all the cylinders in place. Gotta give the boys credit - chanting "shop elves rule" sounds so much better than "Mitutoyo coordinate measuring machines rule" chant my shop gnomes do - they want one, I think... :Lol:
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With the cylinder/faceplate held on the vertical rotary table, it was spun around so the position of the mounting column was facing up, and a recess milled in to hold the column. I went just deep enough so the entire width of the column was in the recess.
(https://i.postimg.cc/25sjghkt/IMG-4224.jpg)
Then drilled/tapped a couple of holes for some brass screws to hold it for silver soldering.
(https://i.postimg.cc/C1bM05dx/IMG-4225.jpg)
This fitting operation is not done yet - with the column held in place with the screws, I can take it to the model and set it in place on the piston rod, to measure how much more the column needs to be inset into the cylinder wall so that the cylinder is centered on the piston rod as held by the crosshead. I COULD just go by the plan dimensions, but that would be asking for trouble given all of the parts stacked up in the assembly. Better to take actual measurements and machine from there. Since I don't want to make the cylinder wall too thin, most if not all of the material will be milled off the column side facing the cylinder. Should be around 1/8 to 3/16" to be removed, the columns were left thick to allow this operation. To do the measurements, I'll bolt the bottom cap in place on the cylinder, since it has the piston rod gland in it already so it will center things.
Once the columns are fit to the cylinder, I'll move on to milling the recesses for the stay rod brackets and the legs that sit on the vertical posts...
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Oh, and I’m doing these steps on both cylinders before moving on...
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Once both cylinders (and bottom caps) were notched like I showed yesterday, they were set on the frame one at a time to measure the offset from final position. Here is a view from underneath showing the bottom cap and the piston rod gland holding things in place. When doing the measurements, I brought the crosshead up with a support to hold the cylinder level.
(https://i.postimg.cc/yYsKM3xr/IMG-4226.jpg)
This picture shows the column and that it is offset off the back of the frame.
(https://i.postimg.cc/bNgPpY2Y/IMG-4227.jpg)
I used the mounting holes to measure from to get the actual amount needed to be trimmed off the column. The cylinder wall is not that thick, so I don't want to notch it in any further.
Here it is after trimming the column and bolting it back onto the cylinder. The back of the column is now flush and the holes line up.
(https://i.postimg.cc/QNpsYJ8T/IMG-4228.jpg)
Both columns have been measured and trimmed, here are both cylinders set in place on the frame, now at their proper height since they are resting on the columns.
(https://i.postimg.cc/HkLgxGQw/IMG-4229.jpg)
Next will be to milll in the recesses to hold the horizontal stay rods, and make a couple of filler pieces for the top of the steam chest bases to bring them up to the level of the top cap flange.
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There's a lot of very careful, fiddly, fitting work that needs to be done here. Nicely done, Chris! You follow a very careful process on this. :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
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There's a lot of very careful, fiddly, fitting work that needs to be done here. Nicely done, Chris! You follow a very careful process on this. :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
Thanks Kim, I'm trying to learn from the IP cylinder work, these should go smoother, I hope.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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And a few more shapes milled in to the two IP cylinders this morning, first each one gets a pair of brackets for horizontal stay rods on each side, so they need a recess to hold the brackets flat and in place. Here is one side of the first one, with one ready to test fit on the left, the one on the right has a bracket already fit to it. All the brackets were made up together back with the HP cylinder.
(https://i.postimg.cc/dQS9x3vP/IMG-4230.jpg)
And also milled flats on the top flanges to make it easier to fit pieces to get the top of the steam chest base up to the level of the top of the flange. This area will be covered by an extension on the top cap, like was done on the IP cylinder. Once these filler pieces are fitted, the cylinders can be silver soldered up. The support legs and the angled stay rod brackets will attach to the bottom cap.
(https://i.postimg.cc/dtk9PFt7/IMG-4231.jpg)
The pieces for the fillers were cut to (very) rough size, clamped in place, and drilled/tapped
(https://i.postimg.cc/g23qjKhm/IMG-4232.jpg)
The cylinder assemblies are ready to be silver soldered!
(https://i.postimg.cc/Kv6DmWR0/IMG-4233.jpg)
Hmmm, just visible in the background of that last shot I can see some shop elves sleeping on the job. Have to get them suited up for handling the torch...
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Just give a couple of taps of a small hammer to one of the cylinders and ring it like a big bell....then say "the bell tolls for thee. (to get ready)" In your best Darth Vader voice... :Lol:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Just give a couple of taps of a small hammer to one of the cylinders and ring it like a big bell....then say "the bell tolls for thee. (to get ready)" In your best Darth Vader voice... :Lol:
Best way to wake up the shop elves is to use the 6" ships bell that I have, hold it just over them and ring it really hard. The look on their faces - Priceless! :LittleDevil:
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Today is cold, down near freezing, but no wind, so it was a good morning to bundle the shop elves up in their fire suits and send them out with the big torch to silver solder the two LP cylinder assemblies. A lot of mass in each one, so it took the big torch to get them up to temperature. They are cooling now, then will take a swim in the pickle solution for a while to clean up. If the joints flowed well enough, then I'll be able to move on to turning the bores to final size. If not, then another round with the torch first. Pictures later!
:cheers:
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That's big progress! Looking forward to the pics :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
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Fresh out of the pickle solution, and in Elf-QA...
(https://i.postimg.cc/Njrg2B1v/IMG-4234.jpg)
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Thanks CNR!!
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Coming down the home stretch on the last two cylinders. The silver soldering passed the Elf-QA testing, so on to cleaning up the steam chest bases. Started with the cylinders upright on the rotary table to trim off the filler blocks flush with the top flange. The support columns are in the way to put them fully on the faceplate, but I was able to find a couple screw locations to hold it offset. For this process it doesnt matter if its centered on the rotary table axis.
(https://i.postimg.cc/15bPpXc5/IMG-4236.jpg)
Then switched ends so the top flange was on the faceplate, and the rotary table up vertical to mill off the ends and sides of the base plates nice and flat for the steam chests to rest against...
(https://i.postimg.cc/k5mmpHp0/IMG-4238.jpg)
So, ready to bore out the cylinders to final dimensions. A test spin on the lathe at low speeds tells me that these cylinders won't need as much counterweight to balance them as the other two did, not having the angled legs attached to them. Those legs will attach to the bottom cap instead. Still needs some balance weight, will work that out next. Also need to go back in this thread and remind myself how I held the big boring bar!
(https://i.postimg.cc/7Z74X4m1/IMG-4239.jpg)
Got a RC submarine session at the pool with the boat group later, need to go prep for that in the meantime. :cheers:
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The soldered cylinders are looking good, Chris! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Also need to go back in this thread and remind myself how I held the big boring bar!
I've done that myself many times! These build threads can be a lifesaver! Or, at least a time saver, so you don't have to flail about figuring out how to do something again! :Lol:
Have fun torpedoing boats in the pool today! :LittleDevil:
Kim
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Thanks Kim! Looking back on the thread definitely helped, saved a couple false starts.
I used the big 1" OD boring bar again, cuts nice and smooth, none of the ringing or chattering of the smaller bar when it overhangs so far. I took just enough cuts to get down to smooth metal, then got out the bore gauge again. After the interrupted cuts on some of the other parts, I wanted to check the alignment again. It was off about 3.5 thou over the length of the bore (over 3"), so worth adjusting it. Couple tweaks on the headstock and it was back in good alignment.
(https://i.postimg.cc/5t9DFQKr/IMG-4242.jpg)
Then finished boring out the first cylinder, nice smooth finish, took the last passes nice and slow.
(https://i.postimg.cc/jj8m6qGS/IMG-4243.jpg)
Also, we had our monthly RC submarine run at the pool this afternoon. I put in the Deepflight sub I've been building, had shown pictures of it previously. Here it is in the pool - worked great! Only change it needs is some adjustment to get a longer throw on the rudders. It needed no adjustments on the ballasting, the ballasting I did in the bathtub held up fine when it was moving.
(https://i.postimg.cc/DwPtZP6s/IMG-4248.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/XJphsSbc/IMG-4251.jpg)
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: The cylinder ops looked like it was real boring! (it didn't look like fake boring, that's for sure) :Lol: The new sub looks great! :cheers:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: The cylinder ops looked like it was real boring! (it didn't look like fake boring, that's for sure) :Lol: The new sub looks great! :cheers:
Its boring but turning out well. :Jester:
Uh oh, the Pun Police are coming up the street...
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This morning the second LP cylinder was bored out to size. Checked the tram partway through, all good.
(https://i.postimg.cc/kMQjmFcd/IMG-4253.jpg)
There are a couple of warmer days coming midweek, so I am going to take advantage of it to get the last couple of parts silver soldered outside. The piston heads are one, they are larger than any stock I have left, so they will be pieced up from one large block and one smaller piece on the side. The side piece does not need to be as thick since it is out where the cone tapers down, plus the thicker piece is a bit thicker than needed. A flat was milled on one side of each piece to give a good mating surface, better than the flat bar stock comes with. I'll do the usual prick-punch in a few places to give it the tiny gap for the solder to wick into, like Kozo teaches.
(https://i.postimg.cc/m2Tm2zX1/IMG-4254.jpg)
The other parts needing silver soldering are the two top caps, they need extensions to them like the IP one did. I'll mill one side of thicker filler blocks and mill off the side of the caps next. Not that many parts left to make, seems wierd to be this close to finishing up the engine!
:cheers:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Chris, it could be that you still have some good workshop elves in the room that you don't know. Good spirits who work on the engine overnight.
The tread in the cylinder looks very good.
You have good tools.
Greetings Michael :cheers:
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Chris, it could be that you still have some good workshop elves in the room that you don't know. Good spirits who work on the engine overnight.
The tread in the cylinder looks very good.
You have good tools.
Greetings Michael :cheers:
Very possible that there are more elves in the shop, the cookie bags have been going empty a lot faster than normal...
:cheers:
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Maybe like this......
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Maybe like this......
:Lol:
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To get the cap extensions laid out, I needed to have the steam chests on the cylinders. The chests already have a set of mounting holes drilled and counterbored, so they just needed to be clamped on the bases soldered to the cylinders to use them as drill guides. A piece of wood inside the bore protected it from marring by the clamps.
(https://i.postimg.cc/MpDQz5Pg/IMG-4255.jpg)
All drilled and tapped, screws run in, here is how they look on the engine (top caps set in place too)
(https://i.postimg.cc/QMYKTtrb/IMG-4257.jpg)
Really taking shape! Then made up a paper template for the extensions and marked the caps for where the extensions will intersect. A couple of screws were run in to orient the caps on the cylinders.
(https://i.postimg.cc/fL3tjNzh/IMG-4258.jpg)
Over to the mill, so far have one of the caps trimmed back for the extension. Same as I did on the IP cylinder, the extension is overlapped on the flange, which makes it simple to position for soldering.
(https://i.postimg.cc/6QpGqZFq/IMG-4259.jpg)
One more cap to mill back, then I'll make up the blocks for the extensions. The weather is supposed to warm up in the next couple days, perfect for outside soldering work. These are the last large parts to make, after this its piston rods, valve rods, stays, pipes, etc. I'm thinking it will be ready to install in the battleship by Christmas. Um, which one of you was building the battleship for me? Hello? Uh oh..
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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You're moving right along on those last two cylinders, Chris! :popcorn: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Kim
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Thanks guys!!
Getting ready for some soldering tomorrow by finishing up the extension blanks. They need to be notched on the underside to fit over the flange on the cap. So, clamped them on the flange, with the side of the block up against the flat milled on the cap this morning (the edge of the block was milled square first) and held it in the big chuck on the rotary table for drilling a few holes through the flange and into the block.
(https://i.postimg.cc/rpj9rL8J/IMG-4260.jpg)
These holes were tapped and used to bolt the blocks to the faceplate in the same holes that were used to hold the caps and cylinders. Milled down slightly over the thickness of the flange, so the block can be trued up to the edge of the flange after soldering. Now, the eagle eyed among you (I know you are there) will pipe up and say that the holes used to hold the block will show on the top later. Yes, you are right, but there is so little overlap of the block to the faceplate that its worth it to do things this way, the holes can be plugged.
(https://i.postimg.cc/prhQ4hKG/IMG-4261.jpg)
With the bottom recessed in, the block was then clamped back in place on the cap to drill one more hole, for a temp screw to hold it for soldering.
(https://i.postimg.cc/qRZX1X66/IMG-4263.jpg)
This shot shows both caps, one upside down to show the screw.
(https://i.postimg.cc/tTgNdmJH/IMG-4264.jpg)
And the stack of parts ready for soldering tomorrow, two caps with extensions, two piston heads. The pipes that will need soldering later will be soft soldered inside.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Rhk1BSRM/IMG-4265.jpg)
:cheers: :cheers:
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Awesome work those look very complicated …….from seeing all that brass it looks like you have a brass mine in your back yard…….
You the man Dog… :drinking-41:
Don
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Awesome work those look very complicated …….from seeing all that brass it looks like you have a brass mine in your back yard…….
You the man Dog… :drinking-41:
Don
Thanks Don! :cheers:
Theres a tunnel from the basement out to the brass vein in the back yard. Out front is the 303 stainless mine! :Lol:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Cheers re the brass and stainless mines! I just wish I had two trees that dropped 1-72 and 2-56 nuts! :Lol: (the black walnuts and acorns we get ain't even hexagonal :hellno: :thinking:)
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Cheers re the brass and stainless mines! I just wish I had two trees that dropped 1-72 and 2-56 nuts! :Lol: (the black walnuts and acorns we get ain't even hexagonal :hellno: :thinking: )
These days I'd also wish for the unicorn that pooped small hex head stainless screws, they are getting a lot harder to find, as are the small pattern nuts.
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Going to be soldering up the parts for the caps and piston heads this afternoon once it warms up, still frost on the ground now. Supposed to be around 60F later.
In the meantime, I was looking at the connecting passages for the bottom of the cylinders, and I am going to change how I did them on the IP cylinder. On that one, the mating faces to the steam chest and the cylinder base were on the vertical and horizontal faces of the passage parts.That meant getting seals drawn up on faces in two directions, which was part of the problem I was having getting a good seal. So, on these I'll make a stepped block that seals on the bottom of the steam chest and the bottom of the cylinder, should be much easier to assemble and have a better seal. I'll need to block up the ports I already drilled in the back side of the valve plate (sounds painful) and mill in a new opening in the bottom plate of the chest walls, like the top plate already has. Pictures on that later as it gets made. One more thing learned from the IP cylinder and all its issues!
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A start on the blocks I described inm the previous post - notched to fit over the end of the steam chest and sit against the bottom cylinder cap. The blocks will be bolted down vertically - on the IP cylinder it went vertically into the cap but horizontally into the side of the steam chest, too complex to get seals in and little room for the screws. This way should be much easier. Next up will be to drill the passages...
(https://i.postimg.cc/bJBkxxsC/IMG-4266.jpg)
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Glad there were good learnings from the other cylinders. Not sure I'm following you about the sealing in two directions thing, but I have no doubt you're right. It's probably because I don't remember exactly how the other part looked. Maybe you can show us the two parts next to each other so feeble minds like mine can see the difference more clearly? :embarassed:
Kim
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The issue with the IP was that to bolt up a connection into an inside corner with compressible gaskets is that when I started one side, the holes for the other face dont line up yet. And there was very little room for tools. Bottom line is this way is much easier, can see it in another day or so when they are finished.
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I took a look, I don't have a good picture of the lower IP connector, and its behind a number of other parts on the model now.
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Just got the piston heads and upper cap extensions all silver soldered out in the driveway, perfect weather for it this afternoon. Cooling now, will be bathing in the pickle solution after that.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Sorry you got too warm soldering the parts, glad yer cooling now. I didn't know yer pickle bath was big enough fer a guy to bathe in.....er .....oh wait.... :Lol:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Sorry you got too warm soldering the parts, glad yer cooling now. I didn't know yer pickle bath was big enough fer a guy to bathe in.....er .....oh wait.... :Lol:
And I don't even like pickles! :ROFL:
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While waiting on the parts to clean up after soldering yesterday, I finished up the little connecting blocks for the bottom of the cylinders. Slots were milled in the bottom faces to connect to the ports, and cross holes drilled to connect them. The cross holes were then plugged with sawn off screws/loctite. Letting the loctite cure up, later I'll sand them down flush.
(https://i.postimg.cc/gJ7YdWcJ/IMG-4271.jpg)
This shows the milled slots better.
(https://i.postimg.cc/rms8vmk3/IMG-4270.jpg)
This is where they will sit - still need to drill/tap holes for mounting screws.
(https://i.postimg.cc/7hTqZWbN/IMG-4272.jpg)
The solder joints on the caps and pistons all looked great after cleanup yesterday, this morning mounted them up on the rotary table and took a skim cut to level off the surfaces of the cap:
(https://i.postimg.cc/qBYRH8gL/IMG-4267.jpg)
then cut in the recesses that form the passages from the steam chest over to the cylinder bore
(https://i.postimg.cc/NfH0s5Hw/IMG-4268.jpg)
The first one has been flipped over onto the faceplate, ready to shape the top surfaces...
(https://i.postimg.cc/3xQxdYX0/IMG-4269.jpg)
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This afternoon I started shaping the top of the cylinder cap extensions. First one was rounded off at the outer end and the outer flange milled in
(https://i.postimg.cc/DyxmptLS/IMG-4274.jpg)
followed by milling in the top and the sides
(https://i.postimg.cc/rFVKJ806/IMG-4275.jpg)
Will take this one off the faceplate and mark for the indentation at the Lovekin Valve, and start on the second cap next time.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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More excellent progress, Chris! :popcorn: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Kim
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Thanks guys! So far the LP cylinder is going much easier than the IP did. Practice does make prefect. Hmmm, Pratsice makes perfect. Hmmm... Have to keep practicing! :Lol:
:cheers:
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Both cylinder caps are shaped, and after lunch I got the holes for the screws in the extension flanges drilled/tapped.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Y9kGDS1Q/IMG-4276.jpg)
Cylinders so far... (not counting the other parts that were made at same time as the IP cylinder, like the steam chest covers and valve rod guides)
(https://i.postimg.cc/rmJdBLJ3/IMG-4277.jpg)
Lets see, whats left before painting: Piston heads, cut/thread top ends of piston rods, make/install the support legs to the bottom covers, valve rods, lap the valve sliders and faces, assemble/seal the steam chests, gaskets, and an elf-load of top cover studs need to be assembled. Then can paint/install the cylinders, and start in on the stay rods, eccentric/valve timing, and the final set of pipes including the Y-pipe for the IP-to-LP steam. Not too bad a list!
:cheers:
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Phew!!! running in a day or two then ::) :popcorn:Excellent work. Terry
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Phew!!! running in a day or two then ::) :popcorn:Excellent work. Terry
Yup! Two days from now. Assuming your days are about 2 or 3 weeks long! :ROFL: Sort of like the old joke, 2+2=5 for sufficiently large values of 2.
:cheers:
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Those are substantial hunks of brass there, Chris! Nice looking cylinders. :popcorn: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Kim
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I bet it would have been 2 or 3 days to get those engines warmed up even with the steam jacketed receivers and cylinders.....
Dave
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Those are substantial hunks of brass there, Chris! Nice looking cylinders. :popcorn: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Kim
The cylinders got a lot lighter when bored to final size, even though the saw had gotten really close to size. Going to be interesting to wrigh these parts.
:cheers:
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I bet it would have been 2 or 3 days to get those engines warmed up even with the steam jacketed receivers and cylinders.....
Dave
Probably a whole lot of fuel to get the bank of boilers up to pressure too! Would have been fascinating to watch it all!
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Phew!!! running in a day or two then ::) :popcorn:Excellent work. Terry
Yup! Two days from now. Assuming your days are about 2 or 3 weeks long! :ROFL: Sort of like the old joke, 2+2=5 for sufficiently large values of 2.
:cheers:
Tell everyone that it will be finished on Tuesday but don't tell them which Tuesday :LittleDevil: :LittleDevil: :LittleDevil:
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Phew!!! running in a day or two then ::) :popcorn:Excellent work. Terry
Yup! Two days from now. Assuming your days are about 2 or 3 weeks long! :ROFL: Sort of like the old joke, 2+2=5 for sufficiently large values of 2.
:cheers:
a Tuesday, two years from a Wednesday... :Lol:
Tell everyone that it will be finished on Tuesday but don't tell them which Tuesday :LittleDevil: :LittleDevil: :LittleDevil:
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Since the LP cylinder bodies are all ready,
(https://i.postimg.cc/QNq4b62y/IMG-4279.jpg)
it was time to start in on their legs, again made from two pieces angled together like the other ones were
(https://i.postimg.cc/1XMv3t0Q/IMG-4278.jpg)
and if I get tired of making the legs, I can start turning the heads, piston heads that is!
(https://i.postimg.cc/tCCrm3yC/IMG-4280.jpg)
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Did you play an LP while machining the LP cylinders? :Lol: (very few under-50's will get the joke :thinking:) In the spirit of positive thinking, maybe "I get a round (cylinder)" by the Beach Boys would be a great LP to play... :shrug:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Did you play an LP while machining the LP cylinders? :Lol: (very few under-50's will get the joke :thinking: ) In the spirit of positive thinking, maybe "I get a round (cylinder)" by the Beach Boys would be a great LP to play... :shrug:
Been sharing the elve's grog ration again, hmmm? :DrinkPint: Yesterday at lunch CDs and DVDs came up, LPs go a lot farther back!
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Wow I must be old. I just tossed my 8 track tapes a while ago along with the cassettes. found them on a shelf in the basement
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Wow I must be old. I just tossed my 8 track tapes a while ago along with the cassettes. found them on a shelf in the basement
8 tracks must be collectable antiques by now, could have sold them for bar stock money maybe! :old:
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Today I felt like playing on the lathe rather than the mill, so the piston heads were started on. The soldered up pieces (to get them wide enough at the rim) were chucked up in the four-jaw, and the bottom side turned round then the o-ring grooves cut in with a parting tool. There was just enough room over the cross slide to test fit the cylinder fit, once that was good the bottom face was taken back into a cone shape. Hard to tell in the picture, but the center is deeper in than the rim to match the cone shape on the original engine.
(https://i.postimg.cc/mry8b4xR/IMG-4281.jpg)
After both were done to that stage, the first piston head has been turned around into the three-jaw chuck, and I've started taking down the top end. It will also get a cone-shaped center, sticking up on this side parallel to the bottom side.
(https://i.postimg.cc/4d4wy0Zc/IMG-4282.jpg)
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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That's some nice cone piston lathe work, Chris! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
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Thanks guys!
Got the last of the piston head turning done, with the tops angled to match the bottom faces
(https://i.postimg.cc/7LXRVsvn/IMG-4283.jpg)
Enough playtime on the lathe, back to the mill to shape the legs to support the outboard sides of the cylinders. Started with some short lengths of round bar drilled through for an assembly screw, and milled a 20 degree angle on one end of each one, all to the same height. These will be the lower ends of the legs, with a short pad made previously that has the bolt holes to match the tops of the columns.
(https://i.postimg.cc/6Tsb3FRt/IMG-4284.jpg)
Then some longer its of round bar to form the upper halves of the legs, taken to the same angle at one end of each.
(https://i.postimg.cc/wMRb991w/IMG-4285.jpg)
Clamped each pair in the vise with the milled faces lined up, and used the existing screw hole in the lower leg as a guide to drill into the upper leg. One screw will hold the bottom pad, lower leg, and upper leg together for soldering.
(https://i.postimg.cc/DZMMVSwW/IMG-4286.jpg)
Here are two of the leg assemblies set on top of the columns to show where they will go. After silver soldering the parts together, the top ends of the legs will be milled to fit them to the bottom caps of the cylinders. Picture is a little blurry but you get the idea.
(https://i.postimg.cc/yddbrms4/IMG-4287.jpg)
So, after lunch I'll set up and silver solder the pieces together, then work out the holding jig to take the top ends to final height.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: I'd bet those knees will never get sore! :Lol: Looking great.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: I'd bet those knees will never get sore! :Lol: Looking great.
They don't flex too well though! :cheers:
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mine either! :old: :cheers:
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The soldering yesteday went well, this morning I trimmed the 'hip' area of the legs down to measured height. Here is the first one in progress. Since the leg does not stick out the side. I didnt need to use the rotary table but could just hold them in the vise.
(https://i.postimg.cc/8CHsdnRH/IMG-4288.jpg)
Here are the first two test fit on the engine, just set in place.
(https://i.postimg.cc/26Sy0FTf/IMG-4289.jpg)
Both sets are cut to fit (the ones by the steam chest also needed a little trimming to clear the steam passages), and then I started looking at how to hold them in place. The bottom cap on tghe cylinder can be unbolted so I can solder them on or run in screws, but how to hold them for that? :thinking:
Then I remembered the other day when Michael used some loctite to hold small parts on the faceplate for trimming. Seems like a good method, so I marked where the legs need to attach on the caps, set them with the bottom facing up on the bench, and got out the bottle of Loctite Red high strength. Put some under each leg and aligned them to the marks, they are curing up now. Later today or tomorrow I'll take off the caps, and drill through for some screws to hold the legs. More after that... Either a big thanks to Michael for the idea, or a kick at me for not letting it cure long enough! :Lol:
I could also start on the brackets for the angled stay rods, but I don't want to handle these parts till the loctite cures up. Hmmm, I can unbolt the steam chests from the sides of the cylinders and get the valve faces lapped, also the valve sliders. That should be a good activity for the afternoon!
:cheers:
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I used Loctite 648. It is important to clean the surfaces well with acetone beforehand. It just dried over lunch time. But on my workshop stove.
Michael
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While waiting for the glue to set, the valves and port faces have all been lapped. Tomorrow I will drill for the screws to fix the legs, then can get the brackets for the angled stays made. After that, its gasket making time, assembly, then piston and valve rods. The list is getting short!
:cheers:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Not a lot of play time in the shop the last couple days with the holiday, but did get some little things done. The steam chests are all assembled with sealant and mounted on the cylinders, gaskets are made, and the piston rods were marked/cut/threaded for length. They look a bit like the pit droids from Mandalorian...
(https://i.postimg.cc/66PXp4gp/IMG-4290.jpg)
Here is a picture of the cylinders, one showing the passage block on the bottom of the steam chest, other showing the passage extension on the upper cap.
(https://i.postimg.cc/7YTyGYrM/IMG-4293.jpg)
Next up will be to make the valve rods and adjusting nuts, then I can bench test the cylinders/valves to look for any leaks or binding spots. Learned that lesson with the IP cylinder! Much easier to test these on the bench than on and off and on and off the engine, especially since the first LP cylinder steam chest will be right up next to the IP one. Down to the last parts to make, valve rods/nuts, stay rods, a set of pipes, and finish making a cartload of studs/nuts!
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Got curious and weighed the LP cylinder parts. Not including the pipes/elbows or stay rods, or the cover studs, its 20 pounds. That brings the total for the model up to 75.3 so far...
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Looking great Chris! You might want to slop up the tops of the new pistons with heavy grease , to discourage the shop elves taking carousel rides... :Lol:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Looking great Chris! You might want to slop up the tops of the new pistons with heavy grease , to discourage the shop elves taking carousel rides... :Lol:
Grease up the pistons, put the shark tank underneath...
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:LittleDevil: :ThumbsUp:
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Got the valve rods and adjusting nuts made this morning, and have started assembling the cylinders for a bench test.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Kvm4L82T/IMG-4294.jpg)
Was about to bolt on the blanking plates and air line to the pipe flanges, when I realized I had not tapped the holes in the flanges. :facepalm: Good place for a break and let the fingers rest up, will tap them after lunch and continue with the assembly. The pistons are not inserted in the bore yet, makes it easier to tell when the valve ports open/close, or if they are leaking. Once the steam chests are verified as well sealed and working, I'll need to mask off openings and rods and the assemblies can go for paint. While in paint, I can get to work on the pile of cylinder cap studs.
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Those cylinders are coming along nicely, Chris! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Got the valve rods and adjusting nuts made this morning, and have started assembling the cylinders for a bench test.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Kvm4L82T/IMG-4294.jpg)
Was about to bolt on the blanking plates and air line to the pipe flanges, when I realized I had not tapped the holes in the flanges. :facepalm:
It can take a long time to thread a screw into an hole with no threads!
"Why can't I get this screw to thread into that hole?!" .... I've never done that before :embarassed:
Kim
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Those cylinders are coming along nicely, Chris! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Got the valve rods and adjusting nuts made this morning, and have started assembling the cylinders for a bench test.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Kvm4L82T/IMG-4294.jpg)
Was about to bolt on the blanking plates and air line to the pipe flanges, when I realized I had not tapped the holes in the flanges. :facepalm:
It can take a long time to thread a screw into an hole with no threads!
"Why can't I get this screw to thread into that hole?!" .... I've never done that before :embarassed:
Kim
I've never done that either. Since the last time. And the time before that... :shrug:
Just finished tapping the three flanges in one steam chest, and got the elbows with gaskets bolted on. Takes a while to run in those screws, most can't be reached with socket so they need lots of turns with a small open end wrench.
One more set to go, the middle set gets tees rather than elbows. Slow but steady progress!
:cheers:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Thanks CNR!
Well, one cylinder assembled/tested on the bench, seems to be in great shape. The piston will move back and forth when the valve is moved, no leaks like on the first one, once I got enough screws in around the caps to compress the gasket. Even at 10psi I could not hold back the piston as it moved. Lets see, round off the piston diameter to 3.125, let Elfbert Enstein jump up and down on the calculator buttons, he says at 10psi its pushing the piston with almost 77 pounds of force! And there are two LP pistons working together, yes, this engine should be able to tick over nice and slow on low pressure!
I'll get the other cylinder assembled and tested next, and set the cylinders in place on the frame briefly to check the center point of the valve puts the valve rod fitting at the proper place against the reverse links - easier to do gross adjustments on the valve rod before its all in place. Fine adjustments can be done no problem on the engine, when the timing is adjusted.
Then will open the caps one more time to run in some grease on the valve and cylinder sufaces, oil the gaskets, and button things up. Won't be able to run the engine for real till the rest of the piping is done. I had to take the Tee fittings off and shorten one side to give more room, I had over-estimated the space available for the Y pipe between the IP exhaust and the tees on the first LP cylinder. The flanges on the one side of the tees were unsoldered, push in, re-soldered, and the excess pipe trimmed off.
So, I'm guessing maybe around a week away from first run, plus or minus a couple days! :cheers:
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That's good news Chris.
It's great that everything works according to your ideas.
Ready in about a week!
It all happened much too quickly. You need bigger projects.........😁
Michael :cheers:
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Bigger projects... :paranoia:
The next one is going to be a lot smaller!
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This evening I just had to know how the second cylinder sealed up. Plus the elves kept whining about it... :facepalm2:
So, went ahead and bolted up the blanking plates, air supply, and valve. Didn't take that long. Like the first one, the chest itself sealed up nicely. There are a couple minor places that need to be fixed though, one of the angled legs is leaking badly, pretty sure its at one of the screws that hold it in place. Tomorrow I will take the cap and piston off and look from inside. Also one of the tees that I shortened is leaking around the newly soldered flang, that needs to be taken off (so the gasket doesn't melt) and be reheated. Last spot is minor, the valve gland cap needs a tweak, the step that presses on the o ring is too short, so there is no compression on the ring. Easy fix there.
So, several leaks to fix but all should be easy. Was hoping the elves would fix them overnight for me, but they already headed out in their buggy to party with the Keebler elves under the tree... :Lol:
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That's good news Chris.
It's great that everything works according to your ideas.
Ready in about a week!
It all happened much too quickly. You need bigger projects.........😁
Michael :cheers:
Just looked back at the start of this thread to remind myself when it started. August of last year I got the original plans from Dave and began all the CAD drawing. It was early February this year that first metal was cut, so its been 10 months of construction after 6 months of plans work. Mixed in with several other side projects, of course. Seems even longer, lots of fun so far!
As for next project, its been decided on, will be much smaller and quicker. One clue, single word: Cotta. That should get the punsters going, both on puns and guesses as to what it is! :noidea: :thinking: :DrinkPint:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Hmmm.... it's either a steam flowerpot (terra cotta) or one of the Cotta company's famous pins, maybe? :thinking: :Lol: :facepalm2:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Hmmm.... it's either a steam flowerpot (terra cotta) or one of the Cotta company's famous pins, maybe? :thinking: :Lol: :facepalm2:
One point to CNR, for the Terra Cotta pun. I had already thought of the Cotta Pin, made in thier Boston factory to keep wheels on your cah... :Lol:
Any more entries, anyone? :atcomputer:
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I dunno, but it's cotta be good, coming from you! :ROFL:
Kim
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A four-wheel-drive steam car? Excellent!
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More points! :Lol:
As many of you know, one of my favorite places is up at the logging museum in Maine where I volunteer on the crew that runs the steam and gas powered Lombard hauler and trucks. The gas powered trucks use a transmission made by the Cotta company (which is still in business). These truck transmissions are of the constant-mesh variety, where all the gears are always in mesh, and there are dog clutches that slide on squared sections of the shafts to engage one set at a time. One of each pair of gears is fixed to its shaft, the other free-wheels till the dog clutch locks it to the shaft. They made a number of varieties, the one I will be modelling is a 3 forward speed plus reverse combination. One of the ads for the transmissions is attached below, that ad shows the dog clutches in action and which combination does what. I also have some other ads, diagrams, and patents that show more details. They are very durable transmissions, the ones on the trucks at the museum are still working well after almost 100 years.
Most of that project will be cutting simple gears, plus cutting the dog clutches and making a cutaway case. The intent is to have there be just enough case to hold the shafts and shifter, so the inner workings are all visible, with a hand crank on the input shaft and a little differential/spur gear on the output shaft to show how it would connect to the crawler tracks. I'll be making two, one for me, one for the museum to have. Should be a fairly simple build, nice change from the gazillion-piece Ohio engine this past year!
Maybe I'll work in a Cotta-Pin to hold a part, its a model I Cotta build!
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This morning I pulled the caps and piston out of the second LP cylinder, and found the leak at the bottom of the cylinder - it was, as suspected, one of the screws holding the angled leg onto the base cap. Easily fixed. Also fixed the gland cap on the valve rod, it just needed the projection that contacs the o ring to be turned a little deeper, so that one is solved too. Found a missing bit of filler in the top of the steam chest where the top cap extension passage is, put a little sealant in that too. When I took off the steam chest cover, I found there was a slight rocking to the slide valve that was keeping it from sealing well against the port face. Turned out to be a teensy bur on the edge of an opening, must have gotten bumped during assembly, easily scraped back flat again. That just leaves the tee for the steam pipe, which is leaking around the soldered-on flange. I'm not real happy with the shape of those parts, and after looking back at the original plans I've decided to remake the tees to be more like what the plans show, with one pipe leading off horizontally to the other cylinder, and the other pipe turned about 45 degrees towards the elbow on the IP cylinder. That should look a lot better, and won't be that hard to make. Either way will work, but this will be more faithful to the original. So, that is the task for the shop playtime today! Pics as that comes together...
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That looks like a fascinating project, Chris. Can't wait to follow long... but I guess I cotta wait, don't I? :LittleDevil:
Kim
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That looks like a fascinating project, Chris. Can't wait to follow long... but I guess I cotta wait, don't I? :LittleDevil:
Kim
Yes, you Cotta! :lolb: Another point!
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The Cotta transmission project sounds really cool! That's an interesting concept and a contrast to a typical transmission of that era. For a comparison, MrPete did a cutaway of a Ford Model A transmission here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7G3C4MBSCCg
I've made a few gears in the past, but a project like this might have enough gears to make me look into one of those fancy schmancy electronic dividers. I found out about them after I had already bought the dividing plates for my rotary table.
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The Cotta transmission project sounds really cool! That's an interesting concept and a contrast to a typical transmission of that era. For a comparison, MrPete did a cutaway of a Ford Model A transmission here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7G3C4MBSCCg
I've made a few gears in the past, but a project like this might have enough gears to make me look into one of those fancy schmancy electronic dividers. I found out about them after I had already bought the dividing plates for my rotary table.
Thats a great video! The Cotta works pretty much the same way, except the gears don't slide but there are dog clutches on each set instead. For my gear cutting, I use a cranked rotary table, 5 degrees per full turn of the crank, so I need to make up tables in a spreadsheet to tell me how many full turns and what tick number to stop on for each tooth.
:cheers:
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The remake of the tees for the LP1 to IP piping is going quite well. Rather than the tees on each pipe, with sets of elbows down to the single pipe coming from the IP cylinder, I am making it into the proper Y-shaped pipe like the original plans show. I started with another set of tee fittings, set in the mill vise at a 45 degree angle, and cut a vertical hole down into the center. Started with an end mill to get the opening started, then finished off with the boring head with a number of passes to get it out to final diameter and depth. The hole size is to fit tube sections cut off the end of another fitting, so I can fit a straight pipe in without a flange. Here is the hole being bored out to size - copper is grabby, so shallow slow cuts.
(https://i.postimg.cc/vZ9Xccqw/IMG-4295.jpg)
trial fit of the tube section:
(https://i.postimg.cc/FKVZVwXP/IMG-4296.jpg)
Once that fit the hole diameter, and the depth was enough to reach the inside of the original Tee, it was done.
The tube sections were then silver soldered into place. Here they are after some cleanup:
(https://i.postimg.cc/zBDktpJq/IMG-4298.jpg)
As you can see, there is still remnants of the original tee shape sticking out. Those were handy to help hold the tube sections in place, but they needed to go away. They were taken off with the belt sander (with lots of dunks in water, they got hot fast on the sanding belt! Here they are after trimming. The upper one has a length of pipe slipped into the opening on the left, which will lead to the other LP cylinder inlet. There is a shorter pipe inserted into the angled opening, that will be where a pipe leads down to the Y connection. The third opening facing back will have a flange bolted to the steam chest. The second fitting at the bottom is a mirror image of the first, it will form the lower half of the Y. Both fittings will get bolting flanges soft soldered on. Still to make is the Y connection itself, from two short sections of pipe milled off at an angle and soldered together, and fit to a short third piece that will hold the flange.
(https://i.postimg.cc/5tVgvbTY/IMG-4299.jpg)
I know, that all sounds very confusing, more like an old Three Stooges plumbing sketch than a simple(ish) fitting for a steam engine! It will be a lot clearer tomorrow after the rest is made...
:cheers:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: The Tee -135's (not the Russian ones) are looking good! :cheers:
Re the Cotta gearbag: Prediction - If someone doesn't like the day-glo fluorescent orange paint job the shop elves have in mind, they'll be sayin "Now wait a cotta pickin minute here!" :Lol: :facepalm:
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That odd shaped 135 degree Tee looks mighty nice, Chris! Way to repurpose a standard Tee connection. That was pretty sneaky! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
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135 degrees? Rats, they were supposed to be 225! :lolb: :Jester:
When I started out, I was going to make a dome-ended hollow post, and bore two holes for the pipes into the dome. Then looked at the Tee, and thought this way was worth a try since I had a bin of tees and elbows on the shelf (they are very useful for making cradles and launching platforms for the RC subs, I had made a bunch of the launchers a while back to give away at the raffle at the big meet in Indiana). Took a couple tries to get the position right, but it worked out well.
:cheers:
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For my gear cutting, I use a cranked rotary table, 5 degrees per full turn of the crank, so I need to make up tables in a spreadsheet to tell me how many full turns and what tick number to stop on for each tooth.
Yeah, I've heard of that method and I could do that as well with my rotary table but I think the Shop Squirrel and Shop Groundhog would have to have me committed into an asylum once I got a fat or skinny gear tooth at the end of all that work from a math or user input error.
(https://doug.sdf.org/images/sb_changegear10.jpg)
Here I'm cutting a change gear for my lathe at the mill. On some rotary tables like mine you can get dividing plates (the crank is swapped out) so you can do divisions in exactly the same manner as a traditional dividing head. You only need to count the turns and the sector takes care of the remainder if everything is setup correctly. I checked at Sherline's site and surprisingly I didn't see a set for their rotary table. What I did see was an electronic divider and they seem rather proud of it:
https://www.sherline.com/product/8700-cnc-4-rotary-table-indexer/#description
There are several DIY alternatives, with this one with a mostly ready-to-go option:
https://www.worldofward.com/
And there are other options around if you can work with just an Arduino sketch and a wiring diagram. The advantage of all these is that you just input the number of divisions, say 42, and the just hit a arrow button on the controller to step through Div1, Div2, etc. Almost fool proof. I'm not sure how many passes you do, but on the steel gears shown I did the first pass with a slitting saw and then formed the tooth with an involute cutter in the next pass. It starts adding-up after awhile.
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Pretty slick setup Krypto!
Shop Squirrel and Shop Groundhog? Hope my elves don't invite them over, the parties would be messy! :Lol: Beer nuts and tunnels!
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Okay, I know the text description of what I was doing was probably confusing, and since a picture is worth 1000 blathering words, heres a couple thousand to clear it up!
This morning I took a 90 degree elbow and drilled/bored a hole in the middle of the bend for a tube. This will form the Y part of the assembly, and it will go here on the IP output pipe (the tube is long, it will get trimmed to final length after soldering so it will sit closer to the elbow, and have a bolting flange)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Dzw44znw/IMG-4301.jpg)
Here are the three parts of the Y piping so far. The flanges need to be soft soldered on, and the short pipe sections between each piece cut and fitted. Overall, this is going to look a LOT better than the tee's and elbows that I had started on!
(https://i.postimg.cc/523Ftzcr/IMG-4300.jpg)
Also did another leak test on the second LP cylinder after the fixes yesterday, that all looks good now. I took the tee fittings off of it, ready to install these new pipes when they are ready. Time to break out the small torch and solder - need to silver solder the Y fitting tube in place, then soft solder the bolting flanges on.
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That's some pretty clever fabricating on those pipe fittings, Chris! And great detective work on finding the cylinder leaks! :popcorn: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Kim
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That's some pretty clever fabricating on those pipe fittings, Chris! And great detective work on finding the cylinder leaks! :popcorn: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Kim
Thanks Kim!
The parts have been soldered and are in the pickle solution to clean up. I took the cylinders down to the paint area and have started on that too. It will be a couple days to get color on them and let the paint cure up well before assembling onto the engine and starting on the final pipes and timing the eccentrics. Exciting!
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Painting the cylinders is done, they need time to cure up. Started in on the final batch of cylinder studs, all have ends deburred on the belt sander, ready to loctite on the nuts. Top covers need 52 each if I counted right.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Any thoughts about lobbying Sherline to offer a screw machine production lathe like the old Brown and Sharp cam drive ones? :Lol:
(early in my working life I had a fleet of those, at one firm, to look after re planning / making the cams and cutters for new hardware types. These machines cranked out screws studs and nuts by the tens of millions in that plant from the 1940's until the 1990's. In spec, too. Except for the fact that they took up about 10 square feet of floor and weighed about 1000 lb, it would be great to have one! Your new hobby would be making cams and single point tools for it to do your particular size and flavours of hardware, at first. :zap:)
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During my late high school and college years I had a summer job at a machine shop where I ran production on various automatic screw machines.
There were a few single spindle machines that had four stations that had multiple stations that would rotate around to the spindle. And there were some much larger four spindle machines that had four stations going all the time.
They were all cam operated and I found them fascinating to watch! At least for the first few days. Then it got quite boring and I had to play games about how many units I could get off the machine in an hour to keep it interesting. I even tried loading stock while the machine was running. That was likely not the best of ideas, since the stock on the four spindle machine that I ran was 20' long 2" round steel bar. Of course, we had an overhead crane to move that 20' stock around... it was quite the race to get one up and ready and in the feed tube during the ~2 min cycle time. You didn't want to have the stock partly in the stock tube when the spindles rotated to the next station - that could cause problems (and you could get bonked by the flying steel bars!)
Ah.. the crazy days (daze?) of youth!
Working in that shop is what motivated me to finish up my degree so I could get a job that wasn't on the production floor!
Kim
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Cheers Kim!
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Hate to post another MrPete video again, but this is 100% on target about screw machines for those people who have never seen one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKrvL0l3gso
Even for the home shop, a CNC lathe with a tool changer would be a better option. No, the modern equipment won't have nearly the service life of the old B&S screw machines.
At auctions it's helpful to watch for some of the screw machine tooling, which is of very high quality and can be adapted to use on traditional home shop lathes. The screw machine length drills, or "stubby drills" as they are often called, are always handy to use with small machinery.
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Have I got the lathe for you Chris.... 8)
Complete with 6 station bed mounted turret and rear part off .... I bought it specifically to outfit Samantha for screws and studs...including a nice geometric die head and die sets...( all English I'm afraid)
Dave
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Have I got the lathe for you Chris.... 8)
Complete with 6 station bed mounted turret and rear part off .... I bought it specifically to outfit Samantha for screws and studs...including a nice geometric die head and die sets...( all English I'm afraid)
Dave
I'm here all day, when will you drop it off?! :lolb:
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Another major step forward - the two LP cylinders have gotten painted, and first one is set up on the engine. The slide valve faces were greased, and all the screws put in the steam chest cover first since it would be quite difficult to get at them all later. I've marked where the bottom valve rod fitting is when the valve is centered to aid in adjusting the eccentrics. Here is a picture of the LP1 cylinder set in place, while working on the Y pipe fittings:
(https://i.postimg.cc/gjSwyKTx/IMG-4309.jpg)
I need to trim and solder up a new elbow for the exhaust of the IP cylinder, to match the offset from the pipe flange since the Y pipes are slightly closer in. That was expected, and won't take long. That picture gives you a better idea of what I was trying, and probably failing, to put into words about how the Y pipe will be shaped. This layout closely matches the layout shown in faint dotted lines on the original plans, and is probably not taking any longer overall than the extra elbows would have taken in the way I first started.
So, I need to pull the top cap off the cylinder to check the alignment of the piston all the way up and down its travel, may need some thin shims under the support legs if its not aligned - needed a few thou shim on the IP cylinder. This one is looking pretty good, but the proof is in the movements. Then, will bolt down the legs, grease the inside of the cylinder, and run in all 52 of the cap studs. Then will time the eccentrics, and move on to the second LP cylinder. That one week give or take a few days is looking like it will need the extra few days, but not bad! I'm also laying out the engraved plate for the base - last year the elves bought me a vintage New Hermes pantograph style motorized engraving machine with a couple sets of letters/numbers. This will be its first real use, after gathering dust up in the wood shop on the bench for way too long - want to make up some proper plates for most of the models, and winter time is perfect for it.
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Checked the alignment of the piston to the cylinder, all looks good on this first one, no shims needed! :cartwheel:
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That's looking very cool, Chirs! :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
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That's looking very cool, Chirs! :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
Thanks Kim, this is getting exciting, so close to a run, yet still a couple days away... :LickLips:
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The new elbow is trimmed and fit up, ready for soldering. Also have the studs installed around the perimeter of the cylinder cap.
(https://i.postimg.cc/kXLQknTB/IMG-4310.jpg)
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Simply beautiful to look at. 😯
Tell your employees to open a few extra bottles of beer 🍺
Prost (cheers) Michael :cheers:
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Simply beautiful to look at. 😯
Tell your employees to open a few extra bottles of beer 🍺
Prost (cheers) Michael :cheers:
And a fresh bag of pretzels! :cheers: :cheers:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Since all your shop elves have pretzel salt and beer foam all over their hands, just let me know when it's time to pull the pre-start warning factory whistle cord ... :Lol:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Since all your shop elves have pretzel salt and beer foam all over their hands, just let me know when it's time to pull the pre-start warning factory whistle cord ... :Lol:
Only if you are standing by with a bag of Q-tips to clean out their ears! I had to do it last time... :disappointed:
:Jester:
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I'm also laying out the engraved plate for the base - last year the elves bought me a vintage New Hermes pantograph style motorized engraving machine with a couple sets of letters/numbers.
When you need new bits for that thing DON"T go to New Hermes for them - the are REALLY proud of their parts. There are other sources.
Many moons ago I built my first CNC router out of a salvaged New Hermes CNC engraver - I think it was a 3400. Somebody let the magic smoke out of the controller and it was cheaper for them just to buy an entire CNC engraver from a different company. The first time I needed to replace a bit I went to New Hermes and about crapped at the cost. The second time I looked around and found a different source. I think I could get 3 bits from the second source for what what one bit from New Hermes cost me.
I'll give you another example. The zero backlash coupler broke on the Y axis so I was forced to go to New Hermes, this was back before you could get anything you wanted for CNC off the Worldly-Wide-Web. The original was one of those nifty spiral cut couplers. New Hermes charged me about $100 for the part so I THOUGHT I'd be getting the same thing as a replacement. This was almost 30 years ago, I don't know what that $100 would be in today's money. Imagine my surprise when I got my package from New Hermes and in that package was a piece of steel bar. That bar was maybe 7/8" in diameter and bored 5/16" on one end and 1/4" on the other, at least it WAS a zero backlash coupler.
Don
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Got the Y pipe parts assembled with some sealant this morning, while that was curing up I got the steam chest for the second LP cylinder all assembled. LOTS of small screws on that cover, got out the screw gun (on slow speed and loosest clutch setting) to run the screws in without wearing out fingers.
Also did some of the final actual machining for this model, fitting the flanges for some elbows on the starting/simpling valves for the LP cylinders. The bright orange bits are some new lathe chuck spiders that I printed yesterday out of the PETG that was left over from the 3D printer upgrade kit - they included spools of orange and black PETG filament to print some of the new parts. Nice tough stuff, but that orange is pretty loud - going to have to 'accidently' get some grease on them. I already had a set for the smaller Sherline chucks, but they were getting chewed up, and I needed a set for the larger chucks I got earlier this year. Very handy for aligning small parts for turning, and simple to draw up and print. If any of you with Sherline chucks (probably Taig too?) that have a printer, let me know and I can send you the .Step files for them.
(https://i.postimg.cc/764PbYks/IMG-4311.jpg)
Also got the second cylinder bolted down on the engine frame, alignment looks good, still need to do final bolt up on the cylinder cap for it. Here is a nice family shot of all the cylinders in a row:
(https://i.postimg.cc/hj0DmW4S/IMG-4312.jpg)
I'm getting things set up to do the timing adjustments on the first LP cylinder, then will do the second. After that, I need to make the final horizontal and angled stay rods, and then the last of pipe sections. Once those are on, it will be time to see how she runs! The original engine would be over 120 years old by now, so I'm hoping it has a nice steady walk rather than a speedy run! :Lol: Another couple days and I'll know for sure...
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I'm also laying out the engraved plate for the base - last year the elves bought me a vintage New Hermes pantograph style motorized engraving machine with a couple sets of letters/numbers.
When you need new bits for that thing DON"T go to New Hermes for them - the are REALLY proud of their parts. There are other sources.
Many moons ago I built my first CNC router out of a salvaged New Hermes CNC engraver - I think it was a 3400. Somebody let the magic smoke out of the controller and it was cheaper for them just to buy an entire CNC engraver from a different company. The first time I needed to replace a bit I went to New Hermes and about crapped at the cost. The second time I looked around and found a different source. I think I could get 3 bits from the second source for what what one bit from New Hermes cost me.
Don
I definitely agree! There are lots of parts and whole machines plus letter sets available on places like ebay, and there are a number of companies that make the cuttters for them still. I had a hard time finding complete letter sets with the lower case letters still included (most were missing some), so I used the text function in Fusion and printed up my own letter set in smaller size with upper and lower case letters.
Yesterday I prepped a piece of thin brass flat bar for the nameplate - buffed down then faces and sprayed it with some clear lacquer. I did some tests last summer with the brass blackening chemicals, and found that if the face was lacquered before engraving, then I could just wipe on the blackening liquid without it effecting the top surface. So, this afternoon I'm planning on getting the plate engraved...
:cheers:
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It's getting very close to a four cylinder run, Chris! That is very exciting! :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
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Got the nameplate engraved, not perfect but not bad for my first attempt at one from this old engraving machine! Here it is after engraving - was tough to get an angle on it with the camera, shiny brass with shiny engravings...
(https://i.postimg.cc/hPJFWzzL/IMG-4313.jpg)
And after using the brass blackener solution on it, much easier to read now
(https://i.postimg.cc/c4PpsxwV/IMG-4316.jpg)
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Very snazzy looking! ;D :popcorn:
Kim
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Very snazzy looking! ;D :popcorn:
Kim
Thanks Kim! I just wandered back into the shop to look at the engine from a distance rather than sitting up close at the bench, now that the benchtop is emptied of all those parts that have been stacked around it.
Now, it should not be a surprise to me, but that model is BIG! :o Now that all the cylinders are on it looks SO different. Just a few more bits to go on...
:wine1:
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Hi Chris , looking really great. lovely..!!! another masterpiece :praise2:
Willy
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Like the 3D printed fixturing. The Day Glo orange is making a statement, for sure! Great looking ID plate too. :cheers:
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Three steps forward, one back this morning. I got the first LP cylinder eccentrics/valve all timed up this morning, put in blanking plates on the other pipes and hooked up the compressor to one of its inlets so I could isolate it from the others, use low pressure, and hand turn the crankshaft to feel when the ports opened and closed. Timed both directions, all good there (thats two steps forward).
Moved the air line and plugs over to the second LP cylinder, and did the same for the reverse direction eccentric. Thats the third step forward.
The step back came when I adjusted the forward direction eccentric - apparently I let it slide sideways on the shaft just a little, and it jammed the eccentric strap against the pump when the crankshaft turned around, stopping the strap from turning, and breaking the silver solder joint at the bottom of the arm that goes up to the reverse link. :facepalm: Not a big problem, four nuts/bolts and the arm is off the model, and I can re-solder the joint. Things were progressing really well, and I just got moving too fast on the last one and didn't check the clearance by spinning the strap around before re-connecting the arm. The pump at the end of the crankshaft is RIGHT next to the eccentrics, and there is very little clearance there (at full size over an inch, but at 1:20 scale that disappears quickly).
So, a break for lunch, 10 minutes to resolder the plate on the bottom of the arm, and an hour or two in the pickle to clean it up, and another 2 minutes to re-install it.
Once this last eccentric is timed, I'll get started on the angled and horizontal stay rods. You may ask why I don't make the last couple pipes to try running the engine. Go ahead.... Yes, you in the back in the elf hat? Why? Oh, since the pipes will block access to the stay rods when they get installed. So, another day or two and we should be steaming up (well, air-compressoring up) and pulling away from the dock!
:cheers:
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Sorry for the mishap there, Chris. These things always happen... at least they do to me and Murphy. I have no doubt that you'll have it sorted and back to making forward progress in minimal time! :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Be sure to check the aft mooring line before you pull away from the dock. You remember last time when Elfbert the shop elf forgot it was still on the bollard.... :Lol:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Be sure to check the aft mooring line before you pull away from the dock. You remember last time when Elfbert the shop elf forgot it was still on the bollard.... :Lol:
And the harbormaster was still in his booth on the end of the dock... The language! :Lol:
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The end plate is resoldered and cleaned up, ready to re-assemble and finish the timing of the eccentric...
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And the eccentric timing (forward and reverse) is done for all cylinders, each done individually. In a few days, once the pipes are all on, will find out if they work well in concert, or if it sounds like drunken elf opera (a very very bad sound).
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Rocky got the nameplate attached to the base for me
(https://i.postimg.cc/G2HWsyXK/IMG-4317.jpg)
while I got started cutting and threading the remaining 4 angled stay rods. Three down, one more to go...
(https://i.postimg.cc/9MKvPQSh/IMG-4318.jpg)
Then the horizontal stay rods, and then back to finish up the piping for the steam pipes on the outboard side and the simpling valves on the inboard side of the engine...
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This all looks very good.
I'm looking forward to the end result.
Michael
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Looks like Rocky used his base plate as a gauge to get that ID plate dead horizontal. He's got the arms for that screwdriver. Great to work with pro's! :Lol:
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Steamer want big Vroooom!!!
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This all looks very good.
I'm looking forward to the end result.
Michael
Me too!
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Looks like Rocky used his base plate as a gauge to get that ID plate dead horizontal. He's got the arms for that screwdriver. Great to work with pro's! :Lol:
I think he stuffed Stu Pervisor under each end in turn... :Lol:
Steamer want big Vroooom!!!
Probably tomorrow, right now with the missing pipes it goes Vro-hisssssssss :Jester:
The angled stays are all done and installed, got about half the horizontal stays cut and threaded. Very close!
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:drinking-41: :DrinkPint:
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Oh man waiting Dog to see this awesome build running……. :Love:
:popcornsmall: :drinking-41:
Don
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This morning saw the last parts going on the engine, the final pipes are on! These last two sections took a few tries to get the length just right, had to sand back the thickness of the flanges just a little so they would go into place with the gaskets. Then a while longer to get all the nuts and bolts on:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Njqwh71m/IMG-4320.jpg)
Still a little touch up paint needed on the last screws, but here is the full engine:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Hkw1Tc2K/IMG-4322.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/s23dxjH2/IMG-4321.jpg)
Rocky is standing there at attention, waiting for me to stop taking pictures and connect the air line to the compressor! Wow, the mouth on that guy, muttering away while standing at attention... :Lol:
So, the moment was finally here - all parts on, timing seems right with the individual cylinders, so here goes! :whoohoo:
A bit shaky on the camera, didn't get the tripod out for this first test (and yes, this is the first time air was applied to the engine, it took right off!)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAUK7zI1sXE
The timing sounds slightly off on one of the first two cylinders, it has a bit of a hitch to the gait while the crank goes over top center on the HP cylinder not bad on the bottom, but it RUNS! :cartwheel: :pinkelephant: :whoohoo: :wine1: :cartwheel:
A long way from when I first saw the plans at Steamer Dave's house on my way back from the engine show at Mystic Seaport Museum back in August of 2022. Thanks (again) to Dave for the plans!! :cheers: :cheers:
So - I'll do some timing adjustments on the HP or IP cylinder, whichever it turns out to be that is off a touch, get the paint touched up, run the engine 87 more times per hour, and get some good photos and video of it this week. Thanks to all who followed along and supported the build!! :cheers:
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Absolutely fantastic Chris! Congratulations! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :cheers:
Such an impressive engine, and a masterful job of building. I'm sure you'll have it running sweetly in no time!
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I congratulate you Chris. With this model you have given yourself a nice Christmas present. A finer tuning of the controls will definitely make things run even better.
Do you still have space in your room or do you need to expand your house?
Michael
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Congratulations, Chris!!! :cartwheel: :pinkelephant: :cartwheel:
She's a runner all right!
Just a little timing adjustment and you'll be golden. Amazing job on an incredible model. You are amazing, Chris, well done!
Kim
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Extremely impressive model engine!!! You must be over the moon!
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:praise2: :praise2: :praise2: :praise2: :praise2: :praise2: :praise2:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: Looks and runs great Chris! congratulations. Beautiful job. :cheers:
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I'll add my congratulations to the list. I'm not sure which was more impressive, this, or the steam powered shovel, but this one is a hell of an accomplishment, given it's size and the equipment you used to make it. You're Sherlines need a rest now!
:DrinkPint:
Tom
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Chris
What an incredible achievement. Such a large and complex engine built in an incredibly short timescale. And it ran straight out of the box. All I can offer is my impression of a triple expanding Wow
Wow!
Wow!!
Wow!!!
Cheers Mike :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Thanks everyone!!
Michael - yes, I need to do some re-arranging of things in the house to find this engine a home!Vixen - nice impression of a steam whistle! :Lol: Hmm, I need to have one of the whistles hooked up when I do the next videos...
I've been back in the shop playing some more, made one adjustment to the IP eccentric that has helped about half the hitch in its gallop, and was playing with the adjustments on the reverse link crank arms (first engine I've had that has those), and they do make a difference since they change the cutoff/lead points on the cylinders individually. The Hp one seems to like being moved out most of the way, and given the feel of it when I crack open the top cylinder cap I am thinking that the HP eccentric needs an adjustment just like the IP one did. Also, the simpling valves make a huge difference on how much power each cylinder has, running on air rather than steam means the IP/LP cylinders don't get as much pressure from the next cylinder up the chain, so the simpling valve evens things out a lot.
While playing with those things, I realized that I did not show the action on the reversing engine in the first video! Here is another video, taken from the inboard side of the engine, where I am moving the reverse engine control lever back and forth. This engine, as most large ships engines, had some sort of engine or piston to move the revese links back and forth, since it would have taken a huge amount of arm-power to do it manually. On this engine, they used a control valve and linkage that makes it act a lot like a modern hydraulic piston, or a steering engine, where the output piston moves until the linkage balances the valve again, so you can stop the movement anywhere along the travel. In this video, when I move the lever, the crank arms above are moved by the piston, moving the reverse links, and you can see the rotation of the engine reverse each time. Fun!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-ji_qPfg7Q
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I'm gobsmacked so glad we spoke and I got you the plans.
Also glad you added the simpling valves that we spoke about. You just Don get the expansion with air
Will type more later...but bravo my friend! :praise2: :praise2: :praise2:
Dave
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I once read that the Liberty cargo ships had a so-called "rescue valve" on the engine. This meant that live steam was fed directly into the other two cylinders. To escape enemy ships faster.
Did the Ohio engine have that too?
Michael
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I'm gobsmacked so glad we spoke and I got you the plans.
Also glad you added the simpling valves that we spoke about. You just Don get the expansion with air
Will type more later...but bravo my friend! :praise2: :praise2: :praise2:
Dave
Yeah, without them cracked open it wont run at all, open too far and it back pressures the previous cylinder. Needs to be JUST right, as Goldilocks would say! The Sabino compound engine runs better with its simpling valve cracked open too.
:cheers:
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I once read that the Liberty cargo ships had a so-called "rescue valve" on the engine. This meant that live steam was fed directly into the other two cylinders. To escape enemy ships faster.
Did the Ohio engine have that too?
Michael
Hi Michael,
I have not seen descriptions of that 'rescue' valve. The Liberty ships did have simpling/starting valves just like the Ohio, but no other special piping. I have a copy of the book published at the time by the Maritime Commision with plans, maintenance instructions, and operating instructions for the engines in the Liberty ships. The only special thing is that on the throttle valve there is a butterfly valve to allow quick opening/closing of the steam inlet when needed. That may be where the 'rescue' valve story came from, if that was confused with descriptions of the starting valves (in the book also called bypass valves/pipes). The problem with dumping extra steam to the IP and/or LP cylinders is that the same steam would also back up the pipes to the previous cylinder, backpressuring it, though the difference in piston size would mean the engine would still run. Its a balancing act, with diminishing returns on adding more steam on the later cylinders.
The book is a great reference for the Liberty ship engines, it was written for the engineers on the ship. The full title of it is "Instruction Manual For Operating And Maintaining 2500 H.P. Triple Expansion Marine Steam Engines", published by the United States Maritime Commission for EC2-S-C1 Cargo Vessels (aka Liberty Ships). You can find it online, I don't recall if it was on Google Books or on another website, there are several on the Liberty Ships. It includes measured drawings for the engines, its on my list of ones to draw up in CAD. The measurements are for all the important things, less included on the outer shells of castings and such, but plenty to model from.
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So.....
You going to stick with reciprocating engines, like the Liberty engines? I don't know, top of the line battleship to lumbering cargo-ship seems like a step backwards.
Now with a full set of Iowa class steam turbines you'd have enough giddy-up that the elves could get in a little water skiing. I won't even suggest a functioning turret.
Don
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https://archive.org/details/Instructions2500RPMEC2SC1Engines1942
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So.....
You going to stick with reciprocating engines, like the Liberty engines? I don't know, top of the line battleship to lumbering cargo-ship seems like a step backwards.
Now with a full set of Iowa class steam turbines you'd have enough giddy-up that the elves could get in a little water skiing. I won't even suggest a functioning turret.
Don
JUST what I need, high speed elves chasing my RC models down... :ROFL:
The Liberty engines are pretty nice, plus having seen one in action this past summer is moving it up my list for the moment.
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https://archive.org/details/Instructions2500RPMEC2SC1Engines1942 (https://archive.org/details/Instructions2500RPMEC2SC1Engines1942)
Thats it! The book on the Liberty ship engine I was talking about. Thanks for the link. Well worth downloading if you are interested in big marine engines. :ThumbsUp:
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the butterfly valve was to control the engine in rough weather when the propellor came out of the water the valve could be shut then opened when the propellor when back in the water .
The simpling valve is good for starting and heating up but if used too much when the engine is rung only increases the back pressure on the other cylinders so trying to go faster with more pressure in the other stagees unless u can exhaust the exhaust from each cylinder .?
john
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What a (yet another) GREAT achivement from You, the Elves and Sherlines :praise2: :praise2: :praise2: :praise2:
The last (and) missing Tube - is that the one going to the Condenser ?
Impressive first run - I bet that you where very Pleased with that :cheers:
Per
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What a (yet another) GREAT achivement from You, the Elves and Sherlines :praise2: :praise2: :praise2: :praise2:
The last (and) missing Tube - is that the one going to the Condenser ?
Impressive first run - I bet that you where very Pleased with that :cheers:
Per
Yes - the final elbows on the two LP steam chests would go down to the condensor unit - huge in itself so I am leaving it off the model since I am already wondering where to display it. Unlike the Sabino engine, I am not putting a scale propellor on this one either, at scale it still would be enormous, though the weight of it would make a nice flywheel. I've gotten the timing dialed in a bit more, I think whats left is the slight oscillation in speed as each pair of pistons comes and goes in making power. I might try hanging the big lathe chuck I have on the end and see if that changes anything, plus some more things I want to try on the valves. Several hours of playing with it this afternoon were a lot of fun, but the compressor was getting a little warm!
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the butterfly valve was to control the engine in rough weather when the propellor came out of the water the valve could be shut then opened when the propellor when back in the water .
The simpling valve is good for starting and heating up but if used too much when the engine is rung only increases the back pressure on the other cylinders so trying to go faster with more pressure in the other stagees unless u can exhaust the exhaust from each cylinder .?
john
Good information! Thanks! I bet that happened a fair bit out in a storm in the north Atlantic, even in a convoy the open ocean can be a lonely place in heavy weather.
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the butterfly valve was to control the engine in rough weather when the propellor came out of the water the valve could be shut then opened when the propellor when back in the water .
The simpling valve is good for starting and heating up but if used too much when the engine is rung only increases the back pressure on the other cylinders so trying to go faster with more pressure in the other stagees unless u can exhaust the exhaust from each cylinder .?
john
YES! But with air.....and no condenser, A little air in the IP and LP helps smooth it out.
As far as a true simpling valve, or RESCUE valve, the liberty ships were limited to 76 rpm due to shaft harmonics, and the engine could get there without having to resort to a simpling valve . I can attest to that first hand on the Brown. Further to that point, a displacement hull has a maximum speed called the hull speed. After you attain that speed, there is no amount of power on this planet that will make it go faster, the hull just digs itself deeper into the water and you make a bigger bow wave and burn a lot of fuel. On a ship like a Liberty, Hull speed in knots = 1.2 sqrt root of the waterline length in feet. So even if you doubled the power, It's not going to give you double the speed.....not even close.. and you'll burn a lot more fuel
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Chris, does your valves have exhaust lap?...and by definition will have compression.?
Dave
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Chris, does your valves have exhaust lap?...and by definition will have compression.?
Dave
I gave it as little exhaust lap as I could without exposing both steam ports as I could, so very little compression as long as the valve slider is centered properly. In playing with it some more before dinner, I mean scientifically experimenting with it ;D , I think the remaining issue is with the LP2 valve, it does seem to be getting some compression there, I think, kinda hard to be sure since both LP cylinders work together (just opposite directions). I made a note for the playtime tomorrow to loosen the cylinder cap on LP2 and turn the engine over slow under low pressure so I can tell when the ports are opening, at least on the top of the cylinder. Can do likewise on the piston rod gland, but thats harder to get at so I'll see what the cap tells me.
Things are so interconnected on a four headed compound, it can be tricky to isolate behavior, the way pressure can travel back to the previous cylinder from the steam chest does make setting the simpling valves tricky. Makes me glad I put a pressure gauge on the IP and both LP steam chests, so I can watch the pressure fluctuations like you (Dave) told me about on the Sabino engine. Too high on the LP end, and it backs up the IP cylinder, that sort of thing. Learning a lot playing with it!
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On a ship like a Liberty, Hull speed in knots = 1.2 sqrt root of the waterline length in feet. So even if you doubled the power, It's not going to give you double the speed.....not even close.. and you'll burn a lot more fuel
The standard Liberty ship speed was about half of the hull speed. Assuming a waterline length of 400 feet the hull speed would be 24 knots. The Liberty ships could manage 11 or 12 knots.
More power would have clearly made the ship go faster, but it may have fallen apart by doing so. The entire ship was not designed for 20+ knots.
I think this is generally the same for most cargo ships. Speed costs a lot in both fuel and structure strength. Today's quarter-mile-long container ships would have a hull speed in the upper 30 knot range. Again, costs dictate that the maximum speeds are generally in the low 20's
Gene
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On a ship like a Liberty, Hull speed in knots = 1.2 sqrt root of the waterline length in feet. So even if you doubled the power, It's not going to give you double the speed.....not even close.. and you'll burn a lot more fuel
The standard Liberty ship speed was about half of the hull speed. Assuming a waterline length of 400 feet the hull speed would be 24 knots. The Liberty ships could manage 11 or 12 knots.
More power would have clearly made the ship go faster, but it may have fallen apart by doing so. The entire ship was not designed for 20+ knots.
I think this is generally the same for most cargo ships. Speed costs a lot in both fuel and structure strength. Today's quarter-mile-long container ships would have a hull speed in the upper 30 knot range. Again, costs dictate that the maximum speeds are generally in the low 20's
Gene
Captain: Whats that noise?First Officer: The bow caved in when you tried to get it up on plane...
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On a ship like a Liberty, Hull speed in knots = 1.2 sqrt root of the waterline length in feet. So even if you doubled the power, It's not going to give you double the speed.....not even close.. and you'll burn a lot more fuel
The standard Liberty ship speed was about half of the hull speed. Assuming a waterline length of 400 feet the hull speed would be 24 knots. The Liberty ships could manage 11 or 12 knots.
More power would have clearly made the ship go faster, but it may have fallen apart by doing so. The entire ship was not designed for 20+ knots.
I think this is generally the same for most cargo ships. Speed costs a lot in both fuel and structure strength. Today's quarter-mile-long container ships would have a hull speed in the upper 30 knot range. Again, costs dictate that the maximum speeds are generally in the low 20's
Gene
Agreed. On paper they could have gone faster, but not without massively increasing the engine speed. Max of 76 rpm.
Dave
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Chris, does your valves have exhaust lap?...and by definition will have compression.?
Dave
More likely to have some inlet lap (does it?), which means the timing has to be advanced to get the valve opening to steam by dead centre, which means there will be some compression even with a 'line on line' exhaust cavity.
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Chris, does your valves have exhaust lap?...and by definition will have compression.?
Dave
More likely to have some inlet lap (does it?), which means the timing has to be advanced to get the valve opening to steam by dead centre, which means there will be some compression even with a 'line on line' exhaust cavity.
Yes, there is a slight inlet lap, so there would be some compression (more likely vacuum?) from that, depending on the timing. Given how large these pistons are, that could be part of what I'm seeing. Everything on this model is such a large scale compared to what I'm used to! The adjustments and tests are continuing, getting it dialed in more and more...
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You need inlet lap to have cut off. My question was specifically exhaust lap.
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After a bunch of experimenting yesterday, lot of thinking last night, and a bunch of email conversation with Steamer Dave this morning, I decided to put the back-pressure theory to a real test. I just took the Y pipe off again (lots of screws in very hard to reach places, the shop elves took one look and did the old 'oh, I got, um, yeah, a doctors appointment, yeah, thats it' and ran out the door.
After getting the Y off, did a quick test by plugging the open pipes to the two LP steam chests with my fingers, and opened up the main inlet valve. Engine ran a lot smoother, without that extra little hitch in the motion every quarter turn of the crankshaft! :cartwheel: I knew that air and steam behave very different than each other, but thought that I could compensate more with the simpling valves. As Dave pointed out, if I had drain valves on the cylinders I likely could have cracked them to do some of these tests, and perhaps find a balance combination that would have worked, but since I couldn't make drain valves that would both function and look good at this scale, I had left them out. On the Holly pumping engine, I had gotten around the problem by feeding and exhausting each of the three compound cylinders independently to balance the pressures/flows when running on air. On the Mann steam truck, I had made two piping manifolds, to allow simplex running on air and true compound when using the boiler. For this engine, the size of the cylinder volumes really magnified the expansion effects!
(https://i.postimg.cc/v8KX85Qm/IMG-4328.jpg)
So, long winded explanation aside, I'm going to make some modifications to the Y pipe. What it needs is a path to allow the exhaust from the IP chest to vent to atmosphere, and a plug to keep the pressure from the LP chests from that end of the Y pipe. Easy to do on the bench, next to impossible with the Y pipe still on the engine without chips making it to bad places. I'll set it up, hopefully, in such a way that I can add/remove plugs, or maybe a valve, to allow normal flow if I ever get a chance to run on actual steam, though I doubt it will ever run on anything but air here at home.
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Chris
What pressure is your air at?....
My suspicion is not back pressure per say but creating massive vacuum in the LP cylinders. Especially ially if your at 90 psi at the HP.
Dave
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could you hook up a vacuum to the final exhaust?
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could you hook up a vacuum to the final exhaust?
That would help the power on the LP's, though I wouldnt be able to stand my engine sounding like my shop vac!
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Chris
What pressure is your air at?....
My suspicion is not back pressure per say but creating massive vacuum in the LP cylinders. Especially ially if your at 90 psi at the HP.
Dave
I'm running the HP starting around 15, testing up to only about 40.
Well, I got the mods done to the Y pipe, and got is all back together with the LP pipes blocked from the IP, and the IP exhaust venting out directly to atmosphere (which does change the sound, another set of puffs). And... IT WORKED! Now running nice and smooth all the way around, and it has a larger range of speeds too.
:whoohoo: :whoohoo: :whoohoo: (me and the two shop elves, can you tell which is which?)
Quite happy with that - at first I thought it was still running with jerky motion, but that was just the different exhaust notes. Keeping a hand on the crank handle on the end (that can come off now) as it ran, now I could tell it was an even sped, no slowdowns anymore.
Going to do some touch up painting, then set up for some good portrait shots and new videos, that might be tomorrow since I need to clean up the benchtops and figure out how to get better lighting on it.
Thanks all!!! :cheers: :DrinkPint:
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Oh, sure, crack-of-the-middle-of-the-afternoon, and look who comes strolling in, the shop elves. Now that all the hard work is done and alll thats left its is paint touchup, they want in on the final scenes... :Lol:
(https://i.postimg.cc/SxqbNBrV/IMG-4329.jpg)
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Next thing ya know, they will want their names in the credits as well!! Plus an extra case of Elfsteiner!
:cheers: :DrinkPint:
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they most likely want a bonus for early completion!!! :whoohoo: :cheers:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Chris
What pressure is your air at?....
My suspicion is not back pressure per say but creating massive vacuum in the LP cylinders. Especially ially if your at 90 psi at the HP.
Dave
I'm running the HP starting around 15, testing up to only about 40.
Well, I got the mods done to the Y pipe, and got is all back together with the LP pipes blocked from the IP, and the IP exhaust venting out directly to atmosphere (which does change the sound, another set of puffs). And... IT WORKED! Now running nice and smooth all the way around, and it has a larger range of speeds too.
:whoohoo: :whoohoo: :whoohoo: (me and the two shop elves, can you tell which is which?)
Quite happy with that - at first I thought it was still running with jerky motion, but that was just the different exhaust notes. Keeping a hand on the crank handle on the end (that can come off now) as it ran, now I could tell it was an even sped, no slowdowns anymore.
Going to do some touch up painting, then set up for some good portrait shots and new videos, that might be tomorrow since I need to clean up the benchtops and figure out how to get better lighting on it.
Thanks all!!! :cheers: :DrinkPint:
8)
That'll do it......Over expansion.... The fact its running at all is a testament to the fact it was well built. If I remember correctly this engine was developed for 300 psi steam...
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Congratulations Chris! I knew you could work out the issue. That steam expansion thing is a real problem when you're running on air! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Kim
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Thanks Dave and Kim! Just looked back on the plans, down in the corner of the first sheet it says 250psi steam, 8000 horsepower, 125 rpm, 48" stroke, HP bore 35.5", IP bore 53", LP bores 2 at 63" each. For the Ohio, hull, 18 knots. Just a massive beast!
Got it running pretty well on air, paint touched up, and took some videos and pictures. I need to edit the video segments together, and get things posted. Should get that done tomorrow morning. The engine self starts in any position, either direction, and runs a pretty decent range of speeds. Judging from the videos and counting revs, am currently seeing a range of 15 to 70 rpm at up to 60 psi of air. For the videos, I got the compressor up full (6 gallon tank, 100 psi) and was able to run about 1-1/2 to 2 minutes before the pressure dropped down below 20 psi.
:cheers:
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Hello Chris.
Cannot wait for the final videos to be posted. :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Your going to need a large gang of oiler/ greasers to keep all those bearing, eccentrics and shafts lubricated. You may have to press-gang the shop elfs, if they dont volunteer.
Mike
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Hello Chris.
Cannot wait for the final videos to be posted. :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Your going to need a large gang of oiler/ greasers to keep all those bearing, eccentrics and shafts lubricated. You may have to press-gang the shop elfs, if they dont volunteer.
Mike
Maybe I can just dip some shop gnomes in oil, and wrap them around the bearings... :Jester:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: I can hear Chris's pitch to the shop elves : " and every barber knows 90 weight oil is a great hair conditioner! Lay 'er on heavy! now step this way to the shaft and bend over!" :Lol:
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Good video on the first test run from what I can see the engine looks good now it is assembled
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The 1:20 scale Battleship Ohio engine model is now complete! :whoohoo:
Best to start of with a video of the model running, so here goes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZ-S-wHIhzs
Big thanks go to 'Steamer' Dave from this forum, who went out of his way to gave me a copy of the plans for the original engine back in August of 2022 - this project would not have happened without his help!
Some stats on the original engine as shown on the plans: 250psi steam pressure, 8000 horsepower, 125 rpm, 48" stroke, HP bore 35.5", IP bore 53", LP bores 2 at 63" each. For the Ohio, hull, 18 knots. Just a massive beast! In the video there is a little figure standing down at the corner. He is proper scale to the model, which shows just how huge the original was.
Here are some pictures of the model:
(https://i.postimg.cc/HsdWxvTY/IMG-4345.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/bNgy20vQ/IMG-4347.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/htGS8JJN/IMG-4348.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/VkHzKYnv/IMG-4351.jpg)
Thanks to all who followed along and those who helped with tips too!! :cheers: :cheers:
Chris
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What a MAGNIFICIENT result :praise2: :praise2: :praise2: :praise2:
It almost looks like the Throws are not running evenly - that was until I looked at the Excentrics (very smooth) - and realized that it is an Optical illusion made from the angles of the Throws (and how the light is reflected) ....
Another one from the (Big and the small) Elves Workshop, that you can be Very Proud of :praise2:
It will quite a task to bring it around to shows :insane: - that is if you decise to do so ;)
So thank you for sharing this build with the rest of us :praise2: :cheers:
Per
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Thanks Per! I've been looking around at the cabinets around the house, trying to decide where to put this model and what else would have to move for it to fit. Has to be within reach of the air line from the compressor so I can run it! Its about 80 pounds, so not too bad to lift, but it is an awkward shape, better with two people to move it.
:cheers:
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The description by Per...'magnificent' is probably the most appropriate word available......congratulations :cheers:
Derek
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That's a real WOW Model, Chris! You have out done yourself yet again!
Kim
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Congratulations.
I join the others who have been watching and waiting for this day. what you have done is BEYOND expectations.
Thank You for letting us watch as you built this and thank you for very good explanations of why you chose materials and methods as you went along.
80 Pounds - I have an antique car with an engine lighter than that. If you don't have a place to display this today you need to build one. Quite a conversation piece it would be for everyone happening by.
--ShopShoe
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Thanks guys!
Spent some more time running the engine today, still mesmerizing. When I initially set up the pressure gauges on the steam chest to help dial in the simpling valve positions, all I had were some 0-100psi mini gauges, that barely register at the real low end of the running. Today a set I had ordered in the 0-30psi range arrived, so I installed those, and they are much more responsive down in the 5 psi range where the LP cylinders run.
One odd thing was that the LP1 gauge was not registering. I swapped it around with one of the others, no difference. Opened up the simpling valve, that seemed okay. When I pulled the gauge from that steam chest, and left it out, I noticed the air flow out of the hole was low, which was puzzling. A lot more poking, prodding, thinking, thunking, emailing others for advice, I finally tracked it down.
When I had vented the IP exhaust and blocked off the Y pipe ends leading over to the LP cylinders with some blanking plates, it turns out I didn't do a good enough job. The plate blocking off the upper LP1 inlet was not properly in place, so it was leaking pressure back to the vent in the pipe! Whoops! That was making the LP1 chest get basically no pressure, though it could draw in enough so there was no vacuum to the piston.
A bunch of fiddling about getting that fixed and everything tightened up again, and its running smoother and with a greater speed range. My compressor has a hard time keeping up at the higher speeds for long periods, but okay at medium to low speeds. Much happier with it now! Not much point in another video, it comes across on camera about the same, just a slightly different exhaust beat now. In person the difference was a lot more noticeable, so it was bugging me. Much happier now!
Time to go mix up some Christmas cookie dough so it can be baked tomorrow... :cheers:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Did we ever try the cookie cannon to see if it would reach from there to here? Might be an excuse to get a 30 HP air compressor with a 500 gallon tank.....Handy fer punkin chunkin too.... :Lol:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Did we ever try the cookie cannon to see if it would reach from there to here? Might be an excuse to get a 30 HP air compressor with a 500 gallon tank.....Handy fer punkin chunkin too.... :Lol:
They took it away from me after the, um, Incident! :paranoia:
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I see.... :ROFL: :cheers:
Enjoy the treats tomorrow!
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Magnificent :praise2: :praise2: :wine1:
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Incredible!!! :praise2: :praise2: :praise2: :praise2:
So glad I stopped by in time to see the finish!
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
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:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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That must be sooo satisfying for you !! Superb work.
John