Model Engine Maker
Engines => Your Own Design => Topic started by: crueby on September 16, 2022, 04:15:55 PM
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After all the design work on the steering engine and having put the Ransome Saw model on the back burner to figure out its valving better, time to get started on the build. For those who have not seen it, there is a thread over in the Chatterbox section where Michael and I were discussing this engine, and he very kindly shared many pictures, videos, and drawings of the original engine he restored. Here is a link to that thread:
https://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,10962.0.html
Short version is, on larger ships in the steam era it was not practical to have the ships steering wheel just connected directly via ropes or chains to the rudder - the rudders were just too large, and the forces on them too great, requiring a lot of effort by the helmsman to steer the ship. So, enter the steam powered steering engine (later replaced with hydraulics and electric versions). The one that Michael restored has a two-cylinder steam engine that powers the unit. As the helmsman turns the wheel, a worm gear advances a traveler nut which opens the valve on the engine, which runs and counter-turns the traveler nut back, closing the valve when it has reached the point that the helmsman turned the wheel to. Very much like the servo-centering on a modern radio control model, except all done with gears and steam engines.
Here is a picture of an original steering engine:
(https://i.postimg.cc/qMt4G14w/IMG-20220901-200707-1080-x-1440-pixel-a.jpg)
More pictures and videos on the other thread mentioned above!
I turned the pictures/drawings/measurements he sent me into this CAD version so I could generate a set of plans (posted on the other thread if you want to build one).
(https://i.postimg.cc/02XmbLhk/Steering-CAD-1.jpg)
On with the build! I decided to model the engine at 1:6 scale, and plans were generated for that size. That scale makes it large enough for practicality, and small enough to fit on my Sherline lathe/mill. Going to start with the base and work my way up. A tooling plate was mounted on the mill table, and a piece of thin plywood added as a spacer so I can drill/mill through the part and not chew up the tooling plate.
(https://i.postimg.cc/zBtYCgQ4/IMG-2002.jpg)
The locations for the screws were picked so the front two are where drain holes will be under the crankshaft, and the back two are in an area that will be cut out later. Then, drilled matching holes in the brass blank to bolt it securely to the table. I put a printed out copy of the base plan on it for reference. I will NOT be using it to position holes or edges, its just there as a double-check that I have not miscounted the number of turns on the handwheel. Printed paper copies are not reliable enough for cutting to - in my days developing printers for Kodak, I learned how many ways there are for errors to creep in as paper is fed, how much paper moves with humidity/temperature, and how many ways the printers themselves subtly change positions to round to its mechanics.
(https://i.postimg.cc/pr3N7tRZ/IMG-2003.jpg)
When I generated that version of the plan, I located the origin at a lower left mounting hole, and all measurements to hole centers are referenced from that position. That will let me do my version of CNC - Count Number Cranks - on my manual lathe. Once that position is moved to the handwheels were zeroed, and all holes/edges will be referenced from there. Before each set of holes I move back to there and do the X/Y moves out to the start of each row, and count turns/ticks from there.
(https://i.postimg.cc/MZL8X1VQ/IMG-2004.jpg)
Here is a picture after going round and drilling the mounting holes around the perimeter and the rest of the drain holes under the crankshaft.
(https://i.postimg.cc/HnrDBLDn/IMG-2006.jpg)
Next session I'll start in on the mounting holes for the crank bearings and the vertical walls, those holes will all be tapped 4-40.
Thanks for following along!
Chris
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
A great start! :cheers:
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Thanks CNR! Lunchtime and a lunch out with friends came at a perfect time, all that drilling was making the wrist/hand tired. The tapping jig will get a bunch of use on this one...
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Applause 👏 here we go. An interesting introduction to building the steering machine.
I think you'll be done for a long time when I start with the model.
I still have so many construction sites.
I like your way of processing the base plate in this way and it is really a demanding job.
I very much looking forward to progress.
Michael
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Thanks Michael. There are so many ways to make just about any part, it will be interesting to see how you do things. A lot depends on what materials and what tools are available.
:cheers:
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After lunch I got the rest of the holes drilled...
(https://i.postimg.cc/cHCgdQGJ/IMG-2007.jpg)
Then started in shaping the outer profile of the base. I went back to the zero point from the drilling, moved in the radius of the end mill cutter and re-zeroed the handwheel, then moved out again the distance to the edge of the finished block. Milled off the front face in several shallower cuts:
(https://i.postimg.cc/j2JD7t50/IMG-2008.jpg)
Moved back the distance to the rear face plus diameter of the end mill, and trimmed off that edge too
(https://i.postimg.cc/kD3BNz6V/IMG-2009.jpg)
Then started in on the first side
(https://i.postimg.cc/Twsy1pTJ/IMG-2010.jpg)
The curved area near the front will have to be done on the rotary table later, I want to do as much as possible in the current setup first. And again, the paper is still there just as a double check on my moves, I am not using it to set the cuts. Along the outer edges, the face will get trimmed back more to form the bottom bolting flange, leaving the vertical gussets in place.
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Damn bubba....that's going to be some whittling!!! :o
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Damn bubba....that's going to be some whittling!!! :o
Thats why I love brass, so much fun to whittle!
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Great start on the steering engine, Chris! :popcorn: :popcorn:
Are you planning to make it all out of brass?
Kim
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Great start on the steering engine, Chris! :popcorn: :popcorn:
Are you planning to make it all out of brass?
Kim
The base plate and the two vertical walls, plus the gears will be brass. The two worms are steel, using off the shelf Acme rod for those. The rest will be mainly stainless steel, other than bearings and the valve sliders.
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Hi Chris,
my first thought was to put the base plate together from several parts.
Maybe aluminum. Everything is glued, screwed and made to look like a cast part with epoxy resin filler.
But milling everything out of brass is also quite time-consuming and you have to work very concentrated.
How do you want to mill out the troughs under the eccentric and crank of the crankshaft?
The sheet metal tub under the worm wheel is only screwed on. On remains of editions of the base. They broke off.
But you could also attach the tub differently.
I wish you a strong and steady hand
Michael
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Another thing that comes to mind about the color of the machine, the green color is not the original color scheme. It could be that the castings were originally gray.
The green color came later. Because all the main engines in the Dresden fleet are green.
So you can still think about the color.
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Hi Michael,
I considered piecing it up, but even if I did, there would still be a lot of milling and shaping involved, maybe more since all the joints would have to be cut, along with the requirement to keep everything aligned and flat along the base plane. I've done previous models both ways, and I don't think there is a big time savings either way. I do like machining in brass for this sort of thing, very easy cutting. I don't really like aluminum, seems like whatever alloy I pick and what speeds/oil I use, at some point I get the aluminum building up on the cutter tips and making a mess. Just a personal preference.
For the troughs under the cranks, I may cut them down flat and add in a curved piece in the opening, that could even be done with some JB Weld epoxy, have not decided that yet.
For the trough under the worm gear, in the picture from the one on the ship, in the picture I showed in this thread, I zoomed in on the original photo, and in that one the center trough is part of the base casting, not added on. It may be they made them different ways, or on yours it broke or rusted, and was replaced with a sheet metal one.
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Another thing that comes to mind about the color of the machine, the green color is not the original color scheme. It could be that the castings were originally gray.
The green color came later. Because all the main engines in the Dresden fleet are green.
So you can still think about the color.
Interesting - I really like that green color, it sets off the steel and bronze color well.
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Hello Chris
Just a thought. The base plate 'casting' would look great if you were to us something like a 1.5R x 6 or a 2R x 6 bull nose, radiused cutter to machine the webs in the base plate. Other sizes are also available. A bull nose radiused cutter would create a neat fillet rather than a sharp edge. You will find a bull nose radiused cutter is so much nicer to use than a ball nose and leaves a smooth flat surface between the fillets
Cheers
Mike
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Hello Chris
Just a thought. The base plate 'casting' would look great if you were to us something like a 1.5R x 6 or a 2R x 6 bull nose, radiused cutter to machine the webs in the base plate. Other sizes are also available. A bull nose radiused cutter would create a neat fillet rather than a sharp edge. You will find a bull nose radiused cutter is so much nicer to use than a ball nose and leaves a smooth flat surface between the fillets
Cheers
Mike
I'll go look those up, never knew about them. Thanks for the tip!
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Hello Chris
Just a thought. The base plate 'casting' would look great if you were to us something like a 1.5R x 6 or a 2R x 6 bull nose, radiused cutter to machine the webs in the base plate. Other sizes are also available. A bull nose radiused cutter would create a neat fillet rather than a sharp edge. You will find a bull nose radiused cutter is so much nicer to use than a ball nose and leaves a smooth flat surface between the fillets
Cheers
Mike
I'll go look those up, never knew about them. Thanks for the tip!
Those look perfect for the job!
I am seeing them under a variety of names, Corner Radius, Bull Nose, Rounded Edge, etc. Aren't standards great? Everyone has one!
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Hello Chris,
Here is a typical bull nose radius cutter.. Feeds and speeds similar to a normal end mill
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/184390842057?hash=item2aee8cf6c9:g:UHsAAOSwk1VfKqA3&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAoMpxqriYuTYsCRqLJbDphSGYFdu3iDpz29yWzfbF7fVhg3uBsDa%2BflhqREmJYLW9AAy5acGcWHSnFloQM545lgrGpoNuHLbAHTOPz54Ch9tt6sNI6ppPE4C2C4EyFIZmzU%2F7inn05Tsr%2Fb4nd4Km44eohbuneUBbMMRxdIIl5UeIURiDOkVF1mFcvk8ApmLK8IT3W8IVTGri7lJ3qzXMfLQ%3D%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR57L1IHpYA
The bull nose radius cutters are always cutting near the outside diameter, unlike a ball nose which tries to cut from full diameter down to zero diameter
Mike
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Nice!
Just got one on order from McMaster - a bit more expensive but it will be here Monday, just in time probably for when I need it.
In the past I've used the ball end ones, and was not happy with how badly they cut the end of the radius at the center, since there was basically no edge there. This style would be perfect for cases where I want a full radius, and it would still be able to cut into the stock at the full curve.
Now, I HAVE had some cutters that wound up looking the same, when they went dull on the ends and the corner wore back! Didn't cut very well anymore though. :Lol:
Thanks very much! Always more to learn in this hobby. :ThumbsUp:
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Hi Chris
JasonB put me onto these. The bull nose radius cutters are always cutting near the outside diameter, unlike a ball nose which tries to cut from full diameter down to zero diameter. They are very useful for 3D profiling curved surfaced using CAD CAM. Or creating fillets in machined from solid 'castings'
Mike
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As Mike says the surface speed of the bull nose cutters is higher than the "dead" area of a ball nose so they cut well, also good for flat surfaces if your tram is slightly off They also tend to be 4-flute so can be fed faster for the same chip load
The down side for things like those webs is that the vertical fillet will be half the cutter diameter but the corner radius of he cutter will be less so you will get smaller fillets on the horizontal internal corners than the vertical.
Where they come into their own is around raised features like the pads on the One-One base, the internal fillets to the sloping sides of the base and the flywheel cutout were done will a 4-flute 4mm ball nose
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/v156/jasonballamy/20220818_154027.jpg)
Or around the raised bosses on this base, in both cases the same cutter did the upper "cast" surface and I did not have to use a second one to do the boss fillets
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/v156/jasonballamy/20211219_161159.jpg)
Image shows effect of using a 4mm dia x R1 cutter
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Excellent info Jason. On the vertical gussets I could do a second set of passes with the part on its side to reduce the radius of the cut on the vertical, though the bottom inside corner wouldn't be reached. Still, its a nice result. This part has several raised bosses, those will look great.
Thanks!
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Hello, everyone,
do you mean this type of radius cutter? I googled it.
(see picture below)
Chris, the green I use is called leaf green and is listed as RAL number 6002. I think this color fan is only available here.
Anyway, green always goes with steam engines.
Any shade of green. Personally, I think the Stuart Green is very beautiful, but it doesn't exist in this RAL scale.
On a picture you can see the oil pan under the worm wheel. There is also a sheet metal tab that originally hung on the cast iron. That broke off at some point.
I would omit the sheet metal oil pan or not open the machine foundation completely at this point. Leave a floor in.
Michael
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No those are what are generally called BALL nose cutters where the radius is half the cutter diameter.
We are talking of ones where the corner radius is less that half cutter diameter, for example a 4mm cutter with either a 0.5mm or 1.0mm convex radius to the corner. Zoom in on this one, these are the make I use. These are called BULL nose
https://www.shop-apt.co.uk/corner-radius-end-mills-4-flute-altin-coated-carbide-45hrc/corner-radius-end-mill-for-general-use-4mm-diameter-10mm-rad-4-flute-altin-coated-carbide-45hrc.html
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Ah ok. Thanks for the hint.
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Yeah, any of the deep leaf green or forest green colors look good. I'll have to see what's available in the paint brands I like.
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No shop time today, was out with the boats all day. I did see that the radius cutter end mill is out for delivery today, early from original date of Monday (handy to have their warehouse so close I guess), so will be able to use it on the next round of milling on the base plate. Should have a report on that tomorrow.
:cheers:
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Back in the shop today. The outer edges have all been taken to dimension, except for the curved front corners which will be done later on the rotary table. Some of these pictures are a little dark, I had to swing the work lights away to reduce the reflections or the camera washed out.
(https://i.postimg.cc/tJzWFzRb/IMG-2011.jpg)
Then I put in the new end mill cutter I got with the radiused corner to mill in the bosses on top for the vertical walls and bearings. Very nice results with it, it softens the appearance of the inside corners a lot, much more like a casting would be. This cutter has a 0.030" radius on the end with a 3/16" diameter on the main cutter. Thanks for the tip on those! It should make the gussets in the outer flange look much better.
The top mounting platforms are all done, next will start in on the bolting flang around the perimeter. The ones on the curved sections will be done later.
(https://i.postimg.cc/m287DV6N/IMG-2012.jpg)
For the crankshaft bearings, there needs to be a set of posts sticking up higher. I think for those I'll actually mill the bases down and bolt on another piece with the U shaped gap for the bearings. That will be easier than silver soldering on 8 narrow square posts.
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Got a start on the mounting flanges around the perimeter. Was able to get a photo of what the radius corner end mill gives, circled in green in this close up:
(https://i.postimg.cc/J4x63NtP/IMG-2016.jpg)
In person, it does give a nice look to it. As mentioned before, the vertical inside corner in that shot is a larger radius since its the size of the cutter (3/16" ) so I will do some tests and see if it works out better to take a second cut later with the part turned up on its side, to reduce the radius on the other corner. The very bottom where three edges come together would not be reached, but that may look okay, worth a test on it.
:cheers:
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Hi Chris, you are making good progress.
The new cutter does a good job. I like the round corners and it really depends on where the radius should be a little smaller.
I'm very happy how fast it goes and how easy it is to see what's going to happen.
I wish I had more time for the workshop. I may not be able to retire until 10 years from now.
Today I had to replace a few meters old drinking water pipe in the basement of the house. The old galvanized steel pipe was rusted.
Michael
:cheers:
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Hi Chris, you are making good progress.
The new cutter does a good job. I like the round corners and it really depends on where the radius should be a little smaller.
I'm very happy how fast it goes and how easy it is to see what's going to happen.
I wish I had more time for the workshop. I may not be able to retire until 10 years from now.
Today I had to replace a few meters old drinking water pipe in the basement of the house. The old galvanized steel pipe was rusted.
Michael
:cheers:
Early retirement definitely sped things up in my shop! The new pipe should make the water taste better, at least the only one wasn't the old lead type!
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The recesses for all the gussets are done on the straight sides, curved ones come later. The gussets themselves will be angled back at the top as well.
(https://i.postimg.cc/3wnFfcNd/IMG-2019.jpg)
Then started in on the trays under the crankshaft. The bottoms of these areas are curved, deepest in the center along the axis of the crankshaft. Here is the center opening taken down to the level of the outer edges, and a strip down the middle down to the level there. I'll do the other two rectangular openings the same, and come back and trim the bottoms to the curves. Since I am using the Count Number Cranks version of CNC, I'll make up a table of moves to accomplish the curves, using the radius edge cutter. The CAD app will make generating that table straightforward, just need to sketch it and decide on the horizontal moves per cut and generate the vertical offset tablefrom that.
(https://i.postimg.cc/bvzRThz7/IMG-2020.jpg)
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Fascinating, I'm eager to see the model working, are any working models known to exist?
Andy
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Fascinating, I'm eager to see the model working, are any working models known to exist?
Andy
Yes, real ones, but no models I have found. I saw one running at the antique engine show at Mystic Seaport, thats how I found out about them. Then Michael here on the forum posted pictures and videos of the one he restored, and ones on ships over in Germany. Check out the first post in this thread, it has a picture and link to the other thread with the videos.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
The solid gold chips are flyin!
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So I don't know of any model of a steering machine. I think Chris' model will be one of the first of its kind. And with the chain and rudder blade a highlight.
Chris, do you already know how to mill the square holes under the four rods of the cylinder supports in the base? There where the rectangular nuts are inserted.
Michael
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Michael, I will drill the holes round for those square nuts, then square up the corners with a high speed air rotary tool that takes dental burs. The pointed end tapered burs work well for that. An alternative method is to make a square end broach and drive that in.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
The solid gold chips are flyin!
So are the walnut chips, been doing some work on the Baker stock, getting the parts inset. I bought a machine shaped stock blank that has everything roughed in, but needs fine fitting on all the metal parts
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This afternoon got the rest of the openigs along the crankshaft roughed in:
(https://i.postimg.cc/dt15yds8/IMG-2022.jpg)
and spent a little time in the CAD application working out the movements for milling the curved tray bottoms underneath the crankshaft. I copied the up/over movements of the mill onto a very high-tech piece of paper:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Nfzp7MFZ/IMG-2023.jpg)
and started cutting the first side of the first opening. The green arrow is pointing at the curved bottom surface. Slight steps, they can be filled in with some epoxy to smooth them out, getting in there to sand the steps off would be tricky.
(https://i.postimg.cc/P5vK6j8J/IMG-2025.jpg)
Next time will do the same to the other side of that opening, and move on to the next one. I can mill the three center ones, the two at the extreme ends will wait till the curved ends are cut.
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All three of the center trays are now shaped...
(https://i.postimg.cc/RhjMM51P/IMG-2026.jpg)
Next steps will be to open up the space between the vertical walls on the back half. Then will cut in the recesses for the bearing blocks up front.
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your steering engine base is really shaping up, Chris. It looks great! :popcorn: :popcorn:
Lots of Etch A Sketch work! Who needs CNC when you can do it all by hand, eh? But it sure takes a lot of focused concentration!
Kim
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A lot like gear cutting, can do it in short sessions, with breaks.
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Hello Chris, I'm just thinking about whether it makes sense to blast the whole base with glass beads or sand after processing. That would remove the marks from milling and the color would hold better.
Michael
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Hello Chris, I'm just thinking about whether it makes sense to blast the whole base with glass beads or sand after processing. That would remove the marks from milling and the color would hold better.
Michael
I've done that on a couple other engines with good results. I have one of those air-brush sized sand blaster things, my compressor won't output enough volume for the bigger blasters. For painted models it didn't make as big a difference, depending on how thick the paint was, but for ones left bare metal it looked much better, got rid of all the tool marks.
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I went around the perimeter of the opening between the vertical walls, cutting down the sides walls and in to leave a flange at the bottom. Since that freed up the block in the center, extra clamps were added around the edges.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Y9zK9th9/IMG-2028.jpg)
Block out of the center...
(https://i.postimg.cc/kXprD1Xx/IMG-2029.jpg)
Then did last step in this setup, milled down the centers of the crank webs. The bearing blocks need to come up a lot higher than the thickness of the block I started with, so they will be bolted in to these slots.
(https://i.postimg.cc/tRDGGRKv/IMG-2030.jpg)
With the last of the square cuts done, the block was removed from the tooling plate. Good evidence of why I wanted the playwood there, its pretty chewed up with all the perimeter cuts and the drilling.
(https://i.postimg.cc/QxtG8Gs8/IMG-2031.jpg)
Next steps are to round the front corners. The part was clamped down on the rotary table, over a wood block, with the center of the arc centered on the rotary table. Then rounded off the outside corners back to where the bottom flange and gussets will end.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Vvsy02CF/IMG-2032.jpg)
and then rounded off the inside of the rounded wall, down to the depth of the tray at the bottom. The same sequence used for the other three trays will be used again to shape that bottom surface. While its centered up on the rotary table, I'll cut in the mounting flange and gussets. That will be a lot of nibbling with the rotary table! Once this first end is done, it will all be done again on the other end.
(https://i.postimg.cc/yxLMmnhC/IMG-2033.jpg)
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Major progress! Base is looking great. Plywood under base - not so much! :Lol: Dab some paint on it and sell it on ebay as Modern Art. Start bids at $3000 or so..... :Lol:
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Great progress Chris :ThumbsUp:
I wonder - since you spend time shaping the 'Cut Out' before removing it - will it be used elsewhere .... like the 'Upright' ...? :noidea:
Per
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Great progress Chris :ThumbsUp:
I wonder - since you spend time shaping the 'Cut Out' before removing it - will it be used elsewhere .... like the 'Upright' ...? :noidea:
Per
Yeah, the top cuts on the cut out section were wasted, I didn't think that one through enough and I should have left that section full thickness. Its still plenty thick to use for something else, on some model. Its not large enough for the vertical walls though.
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Hi Michael,
Apparently the emails I sent in reply to you did not make it through - I don't know why, but both the direct emails to your 'simon' address and the notes I try sending through the forum to your user never make it to you, same was happening a couple weeks ago. Emails from you to me appear to work fine, but ones going back to you don't.
:shrug: :killcomputer:
So, I did get the two emails with pictures, first one with four pictures, second one just now with 5 more pictures - thanks very much for those!
Chris
:cheers:
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Whenever I see the pictures, I think gold bars are being milled there.
Everything shines.
And once it's done, it's like gold.
Very good work Chris 👍
Michael
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I have no idea why that is either. I could try again with a different address.
Michael
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I have no idea why that is either. I could try again with a different address.
Michael
Its worth a try, I'm sure we'll be trading files again.
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I have no idea why that is either. I could try again with a different address.
Michael
Its worth a try, I'm sure we'll be trading files again.
Got your email, replied from both accounts I have, hopefully at least one makes it there!
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Getting down to the last milling operations on the base. Formed the cussets on the curved sections first, taking a stop cut either side of each one. The middle ones are along the long axis of the base, the other two on each end are 45 degrees either side of that.
(https://i.postimg.cc/zBT89362/IMG-2034.jpg)
Then came back and cut away the material between each gusset, using the rotary table to cut along the arcs.
(https://i.postimg.cc/br8p8pjy/IMG-2036.jpg)
Also cut the gussets on the back corners, which are 45 degrees from each side.
(https://i.postimg.cc/90pVQKWG/IMG-2037.jpg)
That finished off all the gussets,
(https://i.postimg.cc/nVYn2jvC/IMG-2038.jpg)
so the next step was to angle back the gussets to go from the outer edge of the lower flange up to the outer edge of the top of the side walls. To do that, the rotary table was moved to the tilting table, and took some time to figure out which way to orient things and how to clamp it to the table without the mill column interfering with the movements needed. Once that was sorted out, and the angle set, I went around taking off the upper corners of all the gussets, first doing the ones down the sides
(https://i.postimg.cc/TYdf4d9Q/IMG-2041.jpg)
then the ones on the rounded ends
(https://i.postimg.cc/fT8D4Gqs/IMG-2044.jpg)
When those were all done, the table was set back down horizontal, and the trays in the rounded ends were milled out just like the other trays were.
(https://i.postimg.cc/52j1fsDC/IMG-2045.jpg)
Final milling was to drill out the starter holes for the square blocks that act as nuts for the vertical engine posts. These need to be squared off holes, so they were started with a drill, they will be finished off with a fine dental bur in the high speed air handpiece - other alternative would be to make a small square broach and press that in. The rotary air tool is quicker than making a special cutter.
So, here is where the base is now. Just needs those holes squared off, a bunch of smoothing with sander and maybe sandblaster, and tapping the holes for the vertical wall bolts. The inserts for the bearing blocks will come later, those blocks will bolt in from underneath, the bottoms of those holes were countersunk so the screw heads will sit flush with the bottom of the base.
(https://i.postimg.cc/439g9mf4/IMG-2047.jpg)
While that finishing work goes on, this is probably a good place to break and go back to the Ransome saw, and try out the valve link connections that some of you suggested!
:cheers:
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Who needs a CNC mill when you have a Chris around ;)
Jo
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Who needs a CNC mill when you have a Chris around ;)
Jo
:Lol:
When making one part, Count Number Cranks works great. I wouldn't want to go into daily production this way though!
:cheers:
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That's just awesome, Chris! An incredible job of carving out a complex base from a block of brass. Simply amazing! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn:
I didn't see the square holes for the nuts. Er, the holes that WILL be squared off for the nuts. While you haven't squared them off yet, I thought you made slots with the mill already? Did I just miss them? Inquiring minds need to know! ;D
Kim
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Kim, you didn't see square holes since I had not squared them up yet, in the last photo of the previous post it showed the holes drilled round. I just finished up with the dental burs, squaring off the holes to take the bar stock. Here is where they are on the front vertical edge:
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZKnphSYF/IMG-2049.jpg)
A hole will be drilled/tapped through the top of that square bar to make the nuts. The vertical posts that hold up the front of the cylinders go down through the holes and screw into the nuts. This is how it was done on the original engine so they could remove the posts without having to unbolt the base from the deck of the ship and lift it to get at nuts underneath. The rest of the parts all will have studs sticking up, with buts screwing down from the top.
This drawing shows the four vertical posts coming down from the cylinders, and the square nuts visible in the holes underneath:
(https://i.postimg.cc/02XmbLhk/Steering-CAD-1.jpg)
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I cannot understand exactly why this variant was used back in 1897.
Basically, a threaded hole in the base would have sufficed. The rods are always screwed in from above. Or the forces of the cylinder (it should be around 4 hp) The rods can be torn out of the thread and the square nut has more surface. Back then, they didn't trust cast iron to be as durable.
Michael
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Ah... I gotcha! Thanks Chris. Now I see the square holes! :embarassed:
Kim
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Dog you sure know how to chew up metal. Some awesome skills going on here. You and George are running neck to neck…… :Love:
:drinking-41:
Don
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Hi "C". more interesting work going on here ....as you have to make two of these exactly the same you could rig up a pantograph arrangement using two mills ??!!! Actually the upright parts are different now I have looked more closely !! :facepalm: :facepalm:
Willy
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Thanks very much Don and Willy!
Willy, yes, the two walls have a lot of the same shapes, but the front one has several additional shapes for the motor mounts and valve/clutch attachments.
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again as a comparison the original basis.
Hardly a difference!
The reason for the several bores with a long hole on the base at different distances is that the machine was once installed on two ships.
Chris, I'm happy about your success.
Michael
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Thanks Michael, great to have the comparison. Hmmm, now you need to remake yours in brass! :Lol:
Have you been able to find out much information about the company that made these engines?
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A little bit of history:
The shipyard was established in 1873 in Uebigau. Uebigau ( today spelled Übigau ) is a suburb of the city of Dresden and is located on the river Elbe.
The shipyard was created as a repair shipyard for the then chain shipping. From 1881 paddle steamers were also built.
The program included steam engines, steam boilers, chain ships and equipment for ships. And of course our steering machine. She has den number 174 and was the first of her kind.
A total of 11 units are said to have been built. Our engine was installed on today's steamer "Riesa" and at some point swapped with the steering engine of the "young Pioneer". The ship "Riesa" still exists as a restaurant on land in the town of Riesa. The "young Pioneer" was scrapped around 2002 and the steering machine ended up in the junkyard. Together with a second steering machine of this type. A collector of steam engines I know received a tip from an acquaintance: You here is something on the scrap yard that looks like a steam engine!
Luckily both steering machines could be bought back.
Chris is now building a model of it for us.
Michael
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Great history details, that adds a lot, thanks!!
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The two photos show the ships in their last stage. They have been rebuilt several times.
Here is another drawing as an example of what the ships originally looked like.
Michael
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That would be a great radio control model.
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Video to the main engine:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YC2sJhzFIKI
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Thats amazing. I've never seen a full size oscillating engine running, just models. The middle of the three cylinders is smaller and is fixed, does not rock. Is it a three cylinder compound or is the middle one a pump? I'm thinking its a pump since the middle cylinder doesn't have its own two eccentrics, so it doesn't reverse its valves. Did the same company make the main engine and the steering engine?
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Wow that's impressive!
Dave
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yes, the company also built such steam engines. They are oscillating 2 cylinder machines. Either compound machines or twin machines. In the middle is a pump for the injection condensation. They also have machines there that are older than the ships themselves. One ship has an engine from 1857 by John Penn from Greenwich England with a crankshaft from 1853 by Friedrich Krupp in Essen. On the crankshaft is written '10 year guarantee' The machines are not that easy to operate.
Michael
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Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqJjzjaTbzM
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That is a spectacular machine, maintained to perfection. Wow.
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I took the engine base to my carving station and dug out a ball end stone tip, and used that to smooth off the tiny little steps left by making the radiused trays under the crankshaft. Then set up the little sandblasting airbrush and went over all the milled surfaces to remove the toolmarks left by the end mills. This will give a nice smooth surface for the paint later on:
(https://i.postimg.cc/XYG0X2NR/IMG-2054.jpg)
The next major parts I was going to make were the vertical walls, but a major function of the walls is to hold the gear shafts. Before I do that, I am going to make the gears, so that if need be I can tweak the positions of the shaft holes in the walls slightly. So, time to spend a little time in the gear calculating app (I use Gearotic Motion) figuring out the gears before cutting them. The pictures and plans from Michael showed the desired diameter and number of teeth for all the gears, but thats at full size. For the model, I have gear cutters that will be close to, but not exactly, the tooth sizes. I need to decide on what module size cutter to use, and whether I need to add or subtract a tooth from the count to make it work out the right size... Then go dig out some stock and start shaping!
:cheers:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Thanks CNR! Great to have you and your elves in the front row!
Spent some time this morning with the gear calculator, calipers, acme rod, etc, and think I have things mathed out. Looks like I can keep the designed hole positions in the vertical walls if I make the following combination:
- Rear spur gears, Module 1.75, 58 teeth and 10 teeth, original was 55/10.
- Front worm/spur gear, Acme rod with .625" OD, 5 TPI, spur gear 2.762" OD and 30 teeth. Rough cut with M1.75 #8 cutter, then hob with acme rod
That wil leave the center distances within just a few thou of the design, which is close enough to work as is. To be sure, I will make the gears and test mesh them and see, don't want to have to make the walls twice. The walls have one side relieved out leaving a gusset grid, so plugging and re-drilling the wall holes will not work, they have to be right first time, and they are going to be made from some large brass stock which is too expensive to goof up.
So, next step, start cutting gears! :cartwheel:
Oh, and there IS one other gear set in the engine, the one that controls the valve movement from the upper gear shaft. I have some smaller acme rod and matching acme nuts sitting on the shelf from previous projects that will work out for those parts.
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A perfect base plate for the machine.
When painting brass I first use a zinc based primer. and then comes the color that lasts better.
Michael
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Your way is the right Chris.
The gears specify the bores of the shafts and if you want to make them yourself, mistakes can be avoided. It is a complex machine where everything has to be right.
Michael
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Another great project - thanks for posting it. At the rate you crank out amazing projects, I guessing it'll be running by next weekend :)
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The base looks great, Chris! :popcorn:
Looking forward to following the progress on the gears!
Kim
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A perfect base plate for the machine.
When painting brass I first use a zinc based primer. and then comes the color that lasts better.
Michael
Thanks - just checked, and the paint brand I am using has one, I'll give it a try! The brass is tough to get a good adhesion on, sounds like this will help.
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Another great project - thanks for posting it. At the rate you crank out amazing projects, I guessing it'll be running by next weekend :)
Tough deadline - I better hurry! :ROFL:
Next weekend is the big fall event up at the logging museum in Maine. For anyone in that part of the world, well worth the trip up just north of Bangor, at least three Lombards will be trundling around the grounds, one steam and two gas powered. There might be a third gas one there if Paul gets it moved there in time. The steam one is the one I measured for my model several years ago.
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A while back I had worked out how to make a worm/spur gear set using a length of Acme threaded rod - much cheaper than buying a commercially made set, unless you get really lucky and find one the right size in some other bit of machine that can be salvaged from. Some of you helped me figure out how to do this, pointing me at other threads on gear hobbing and some videos online where it was demonstrated - most useful help!!
For this model, I need a worm gear slightly over 5/8" with ideally a 4 TPI pitch. I was able to find a 5/8"x5 tpi threaded rod, which is close enough. An Acme thread is not quite the same as normally used on a worm gear, but it is pretty close and will work fine for lower speed applications like this one. A piece of the threaded rod is modified to make the cutter, the Hob, used to make the matching spur gear. If you have a lathe capable of cutting this type and size of thread (mine wont), you can make the threaded rod rather than buying it.
So, first step was to cut a length off the longer threaded rod that I had bought, and turn down one end round to aid in chucking it. When I did the first tests, the threads didn't grip that well and tended to slip while cutting the spur gear.
(https://i.postimg.cc/dVyNCgMK/IMG-2055.jpg)
Then over to the mill to cut four flutes into the rod with a 1/8" diameter end mill. The cuts were done in several passes, working my way down to just below the bottom of the thread. The cutter was lined up so that the cut edge was on the centerline of the rod, making sure to get the direction of rotation of the mill taken into account, leaving the centerline edge as the cutting edge.
(https://i.postimg.cc/bYm5fQ04/IMG-2056.jpg)
Put the rod into a small smooth-jawed vise (actually the little Martin Models mini vise built from their castings a couple years ago) to file some relief on the tops of the teeth behind the cutting edge. The top surfaces of the teeth were marked with a felt tip pen so I could tell where I had filed off some metal.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Gpn7xzrT/IMG-2061.jpg)
Taking care not to file into the cutting edge of the teeth, filed back the rest of the teeth to give the leading edge some room to cut. This was done on all four sections around the rod.
(https://i.postimg.cc/SNjvSJDR/IMG-2062.jpg)
Here is the hob, ready to use. It is sitting next to the smaller one I made as a test a while back, along with the test gear made with it.
(https://i.postimg.cc/bv06CbNC/IMG-2063.jpg)
Now, to make sure that my calculations were correct and the cutter is working, I want to make a test gear. The final gear will need to be nearly 3" diameter and .586" thick (the sides of the gear get tapered in on both sides to match the original, that is why it is so thick). I have a slab of brass large enough for that, but don't want to risk it on un-proven methods. So, since I do have about 1 foot and a half of 2-1/4" diameter brass round bar bought cheap as a 'drop', I'll make a test gear from that.
To hold the gear for cutting, I need to be able to do the roughing out as a normal gear cutting operation, the use the hob with the gear able to rotate freely. When making the original test gear, I made up a little arbor that will work for this one too. All it needed was a new center spacer. Here is a picture of the arbor plus the test blank, which was faced to thickness and drilled/reamed for the 3/8" shaft it will ride on. The spacer on the arbor was turned to 3/8" diameter, a sliding fit in the gear blank hole, and a few thou longer than the thickness of the blank. The end cap on the arbor is flush on one side, and countersunk on the other. With the flush side towards the blank, the blank can spin ferely but not move side to side. With the countsunk side in, the blank is securely held for cutting the initial teeth.
(https://i.postimg.cc/3J6bdYcB/IMG-2066.jpg)
So, next time I'll start roughing out the blank, and describe the rest of the process in detail (both for anyone wanting to do this themselves, and as a reminder to myself how to do this on a future project! ).
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Reminds me of Harald‘s video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ce8-WFwaI70
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Some fine metal sculpting as ever :praise2: :praise2:
I'm following the worm with interest :) :wine1:
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Hi Chris, I recently got workshop elves too!
He thinks he can make the steering machine out of Lego pieces. 😉
I hope they don't become a nuisance in the workshop.........
Michael
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Excellent - better keep him fed and distracted, or he'll start stealing small shiny parts off your workbench!
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Reminds me of Harald‘s video: [youtube1]https://youtu.be/ce8-WFwaI70[/youtube1]
That is a great video! One thing he does differently that how I did my test one was to plunge cut the involute cutter in to pre-cut the teeth, rather than run the cutter across the face like I did, as on a normal tooth. That would give a larger contact area in the final gear, and allowed him to precut deeper into the blank. I'll have to look at doing that on mine, and see if it makes much difference on the smaller gear sizes I am making.
Thanks!!
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This morning did more on the gear cutting test. Now, I know full well that the engineers downtown at Gleason Works, where they make state of the art gear making machines of all types, would laugh themsleves silly at this setup, it is good enough for what I need to do for this one model! I'll send the shop elves down there to roll the crew back into the building later...
To start, I needed to set up the rotary table on a 6.5 degree angle for pre-cutting the teeth with an involute cutter, M1.75, Nbr 8 from the set, which judging by eye will clear out the bulk of the tooth spacing but not do for the final cuts. The back of the rotary table base was raised up on strips to get the angle, and the back screws to the mill table were swapped with longer ones. Then the gear was cut to 36 teeth, to a depth of .107" which is shallower than the cutters would normally be used at, but that depth gets it down to where the Acme teeth would end. Also, the diameter of the blank was calculated for the acme teeth, not the involute teeth. The blank is 2.25" diameter, which works out 0.040" small for the 36 tooth worm sput gear, but its close enough to test out the process, and 36 tooth spacing on the rotab is two full tuns of the handwheel, better for a quick test like this.
(https://i.postimg.cc/fLHTdBpY/IMG-2067.jpg)
Then, the spacers were removed and the rotary table base set back down flat - a key step!! The involute cutter was swapped for the acme screw hob I made yesterday, and the table moved over to center the blank on the hob. In this picture you can see that I cut the teeth like the video Horst posted showed, plunge cutting them rather than doing the normal sweep across the width. Thanks for that Horst!
(https://i.postimg.cc/mDZgh0Xb/IMG-2071.jpg)
Another key step is to change the cap on the arbor from this position, which clamps the blank tight to the arbor:
(https://i.postimg.cc/hvdWGsBD/IMG-2069.jpg)
to this position, with the undercut on the cap facing out, to let the blank spin freely on the arbor. The shaft and arbor sides were oiled to aid in the spinning, and keep the blank from galling on the arbor. I also put a pen mark on the blank so I could easily see the rotations.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Wzhpw0cC/IMG-2073.jpg)
Then ran the mill table inwards till the teeth on the blank engaged with the hob, and turned on the mill at a slow speed. The table was moved in farther till it started to cut, and every several revolutions of the blank the table was moved in another few thou. That continued, with the mill speed being turned up as the cutter got fully engaged. Partway through I noticed it was bogging down, and I saw that the sides of the teeth on the hob were binding a bit behind the cutting face. I took the hob out, and did some more relieving on the teeth, which got it working much better again. More slow advancing, and it got down close to where the final depth wanted to be. A little more cutting needed, but it was time for a lunch break!
(https://i.postimg.cc/WpH1bYMv/IMG-2076.jpg)
I held up a piece of the Acme rod to see how it is looking, and it is very close to done
(https://i.postimg.cc/m212c3wF/IMG-2077.jpg)
The sides of the blank outside of the threded rod will be tapered back on the final gear, that is why the blank is so wide.
So, some more cutting after lunch, and I think it will be ready to taper the sides, I want to see how that will look compared to the gear on the real engine. May not get to that this afternoon, we have our first RC boat run at the Y pool this afternoon.
:cheers: :cheers:
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After lunch took the gear down the rest of the depth, Looking pretty good. As I mentioned, the blank was .040" under sized so the tips of the teeth are slightly low. For the real gear, I think I may start with the blank a little tall and let the cutter form the hollow in the center more. Then I took it over to the lathe, and tapered in the sides like the real engine has:
(https://i.postimg.cc/rsJbsPHL/IMG-2078.jpg)
The 'finished' test gear.
(https://i.postimg.cc/c1MPFvL5/IMG-2081.jpg)
This was successful enough that I am now confident in doing the full size gear, well worth the test run. This gear will sit on the shelf for now, it will likely find its way into some future project. Till then the shop elves can turn it into a table or something!
:cheers:
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Michael - a question for you on the original engines. The pictures of yours shows fancy spokes on the worm spur gear, but I just noticed that the pictures of the other engine from the ship show just a flat plate between the rim and the hub, with bolts holding it to a rim on the hub. Do you know if that was just a difference from one machine to the next, or was one of those gears a replacement? I like the spoked version a lot better.
(https://i.postimg.cc/zX2tQKZp/IMG-20220831-175103a.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/NjyJvFQt/IMG-20220901-200707a.jpg)
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The test gear looks great! congrats on a successful op. :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
The hob looks to be cutting well. Have fun with the boats today!
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Hello Chris, you recognized that correctly. The gear wheel with spokes is still the original gear wheel from 1897.
The gear wheel without spokes is a spare part. Some machines were so badly worn that even cylinders were rebuilt. Everything on our steering machine is still original. Only the pistons have been renewed after the new drilling. Coincidentally on a diameter to fit piston rings of truck engines.
I discovered and enlarged the gear wheel with shaft on a photo in the corner.
Michael
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Michael, good to know!
CNR, great time with the submarines, they had just cleaned the pool and changed the water, so fewer dissolved salts and chlorine, best radio reception, I was diving to the bottom of the deep end. :whoohoo:
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Great Chris! glad it was good sailing conditions and reception. The shop elves didn't show up with depth charges this time, I take it? :Lol:
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Great Chris! glad it was good sailing conditions and reception. The shop elves didn't show up with depth charges this time, I take it? :Lol:
Stop giving them ideas! :hammerbash:
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I keep forgetting they read this forum! :facepalm: :Lol:
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Today I'm starting on the real worm wheel for the steering engine! This one meshes with the same Acme screw thread as the test one, but this one is the full diameter, so it had to be cut from a piece of 3" wide flat bar. The blank was sawn out on the bandsaw, and the corners knocked off so it would spin on the lathe without needing to put in the riser blocks. It JUST fit in the mill vise to drill/ream the center hole:
(https://i.postimg.cc/HLFHGzjt/IMG-2082.jpg)
Then it was set up on an arbor like before, to round off the outside and take it down to the finished diameter of 2.8". It was also faced on both sides to get it down to the finished thickness of .588", outside the nub left in the center where it clamps to the arbor.
(https://i.postimg.cc/HsTmCVWF/IMG-2083.jpg)
That got it small enough to hold in the 3-jaw chuck and trim off those nubs
(https://i.postimg.cc/5NpV9b6y/IMG-2084.jpg)
Then, as before, the rotary table on the vertical stand had to be tipped up 6.5 degrees to get ready to pre-cut the teeth. This time there are 43 teeth, and the precut was done with a M1.75 involute cutter, using the #8 cutter from the set (the one for 135->infinity teeth). The teeth were cut in .126", which took the bottom of the cut down to the desired tooth depth and root diameter for the worm gear. The 2.8" OD left room to take the depth down below the OD of the blank, which leaves the desired arc on the surface.
(https://i.postimg.cc/wjvd7ZmV/IMG-2085.jpg)
Tipping it up required putting some longer screws at the back of the base plate so they could still reach the t-nuts in the mill table.
Then the cutter was installed and the height adjusted to be in the center of the gear, and the table moved left/right to put the cutter in the center of the side face. These adjustments were a little trickier than when the rotary table was in its normal vertical position, where the center could be determined easily by the center of the screw head on the arbor. It was done by eye looking down the back side of the blank. Then cuting started, using plunge cuts in the center of the blank rather than the usual passes down the side.
(https://i.postimg.cc/kMQCZxCx/IMG-2086.jpg)
Here is the finished set of pre-cuts.
(https://i.postimg.cc/hvBBvGLz/IMG-2091.jpg)
You can see how the plunge cuts make a different tooth shape than the normal passes - the tops of the teeth are narrow in the center. Also, note the cap under the screw on the arbor, the cup shaped side is towards the blank, to hold it securely. For the next steps, that cap was reversed to put the flat side in, so the gear could spin freely since the center post in the arbor is several thou longer than the thickness of the blank. The center post and side faces of the arbor were oiled to reduce friction. The hob was installed in the drill chuck, and a line drawn on the side of the gear to make it easy to see when it has made several revolutions at each depth. The mill table was adjusted to put the hob in the center of the gear, both up/down and left/right.
Most important at this stage, the blocks under the back of the rotary table base were removed to put the rotary table back to its normal vertical position again! It was raised so the pre-cut slots would line up with the worm gear hob.
(https://i.postimg.cc/mkyGHGjd/IMG-2092.jpg)
Ready to start cutting...
(https://i.postimg.cc/LXfSmP1F/IMG-2093.jpg)
In this next sequence I'll try and show how the hob changes the shape of the teeth. Tough to get good pics on the shiny surfaces. Here is the teeth as pre-cut:
(https://i.postimg.cc/ht5Rxs8q/IMG-2094.jpg)
After the initial slow speed cuts with the hob - the mill table was fed in a few thou every few turns of the gear blank. First cuts were at slower speed to let things get started. You can see the semi-circular shapes being cut into the sides of the teeth.
(https://i.postimg.cc/mr1fS9V1/IMG-2095.jpg)
and much more so after more cutting, increasing speed on the cutter but keeping the feed rate slow. At this point the center of the tooth tops are getting cut into by the bottom of the hob teeth shapes.
(https://i.postimg.cc/0QggXNHW/IMG-2096.jpg)
At that point I stopped once in a while to back out the table and find the point where it would turn freely. That setting on the handwheel was compared to the starting position to determine the mesh depth of the two gears. Here it is when it was down to the desired depth:
(https://i.postimg.cc/j5ypprps/IMG-2098.jpg)
At this point the hobbing operation was done, and next time I'll go back to the lathe to start shaping in the sides of the gear. Quite happy with how this has turned out, thanks again to those who helped me learn this cutting method! :cheers: This size gear was not available anyplace I could find ready made gears, and anything even close was very expensive.
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Chris, that looks very good at first.
And if the gear is still machined on the sides, it will look even better.
I think you also want to make the gear wheel with spokes.
Michael
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :cheers:
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Been busy and just skimming through posts lately. I'm going to have to go back and go through this gear cutting method more thoroughly later, it looks like an interesting method, and the results look really good. :ThumbsUp:
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Difficult to take the pictures - oh Yes - but still - the Pre-Cut Gear looks nothing short of Amazing :praise2:
It is harder to get a good idea about the finished item, with all it's facets - but you are Happy and that is what matters most (I most likely would be too) :cartwheel: :cheers:
Per
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Difficult to take the pictures - oh Yes - but still - the Pre-Cut Gear looks nothing short of Amazing :praise2:
It is harder to get a good idea about the finished item, with all it's facets - but you are Happy and that is what matters most (I most likely would be too) :cartwheel: :cheers:
Per
Its a subtle difference, same general shape but the hobbing adds the trapezoid outline of the acme teeth to the curves of the involute precut, especially widening the bottom of the valleys. The precut one wouldn't mesh more than about halfway, after hobbing its full depth, so function is a big change.
:cheers:
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That's some mighty fine hobbing there, Chris! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Kim
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That's some mighty fine hobbing there, Chris! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Kim
Thanks Kim, I'd seen it done by others for years, this is the first time I've dared try it. Really works well, not hard to do. If I'd been able to find a tap to match the rod it would have been even easier.
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With the worm diameter about the same as the worm wheel width, you tend to have a high helix angle on the worm. This hobs away a lot of the tooth shape at the edges of the worm wheel and they take on a triangular shape. Hence in full scale they tend to use a worm diameter 1.5x of the worm wheel width or more. Then the edges of the worm teeth look more like involute teeth.
-Doug
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With the worm diameter about the same as the worm wheel width, you tend to have a high helix angle on the worm. This hobs away a lot of the tooth shape at the edges of the worm wheel and they take on a triangular shape. Hence in full scale they tend to use a worm diameter 1.5x of the worm wheel width or more. Then the edges of the worm teeth look more like involute teeth.
-Doug
Hi Doug,
The next steps are to put the wheel on the lathe and turn a taper on the outside corners, effectively narrowing the wheel but leaving it wide for the spokes and the hub. This picture shows what it will look like (just a lot smaller than the picture!) I've seen ones like you describe, with the teeth being almost a full semicircle. I know that the Acme thread I am using does not accurately match the original, but its pretty close.
:cheers:
(https://i.postimg.cc/NjyJvFQt/IMG-20220901-200707a.jpg)
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As mentioned yesterday, the sides of the gear were turned on a taper in to the teeth
(https://i.postimg.cc/pdY1b9Ky/IMG-2100.jpg)
Then taken up to the arbor press to broach the key slot for the hub
(https://i.postimg.cc/G2X7tZ7C/IMG-2102.jpg)
Cut through nice and clean
(https://i.postimg.cc/FKQnBbd2/IMG-2103.jpg)
Here is the worm gear/wheel ready to start cutting spokes. But, since the other large spur gear gets a similar set of spokes, and things are set up for gear cutting, I'm going to cut the other two spur gears and then start in on the spokes.
(https://i.postimg.cc/bJyVzzRg/IMG-2105.jpg)
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Hello Chris,
Have you measured the between centers distance; Worm to Wheel?
Mike
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Hello Chris,
Have you measured the between centers distance; Worm to Wheel?
Mike
Definitely, thats the distance I used to lay out the wheel, and measured it as I was cutting it. If I couldn't hit that number, the height of the bearing blocks could have been adjusted.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
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Boy, tapering the sides of the worm gear changes the look and tooth profile dramatically, doesn't it? :popcorn:
Kim
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Boy, tapering the sides of the worm gear changes the look and tooth profile dramatically, doesn't it? :popcorn:
Kim
Sure does, got rid of the chunky look. Getting the spoke cut will change it a lot too.
I've been getting the blank for the other bigger gear ready, this one is a normal straight tooth gear, just larger diameter.
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You make cutting gears look easy Chris. Good inspiration for those who buy their own instead of making them. For those who want to cut their own I have the spread sheet for making cutters and the different gears just PM me. I can’t post spreafsheets in plans a drawings the file is too big. By the way Chris can you take a photo of that arbor press I see a hand wheel on it. Just interested in seeing it.
:cheers:
Don
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You make cutting gears look easy Chris. Good inspiration for those who buy their own instead of making them. For those who want to cut their own I have the spread sheet for making cutters and the different gears just PM me. I can’t post spreafsheets in plans a drawings the file is too big. By the way Chris can you take a photo of that arbor press I see a hand wheel on it. Just interested in seeing it.
:cheers:
Don
Sure thing Don. Here are a few pics of it. I got it a year or two ago, works well, not a huge one but enough for the broaching work.
(https://i.postimg.cc/L8K8xXRn/IMG-2110.jpg)
closeup of the label
(https://i.postimg.cc/3xXJVTJ9/IMG-2111.jpg)
and the other side, it has the handwheel on the left and a lever on the right - I use the lever mostly for the heavy pressure.
(https://i.postimg.cc/W4sbPHdV/IMG-2112.jpg)
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Here is the start of the second gear blank. Its over 4" across, so it is being cut from a piece of stress relieved flat bar stock left over from the Ward pump engine model. Started by drilling/reaming the center hole with it clamped to the mill table on top of a piece of wood.
(https://i.postimg.cc/nr9nk8P4/IMG-2107.jpg)
To save as much usable metal from the piece, I milled it out to a circle rather than using a saw - those outer areas will get used for something I'm sure.
(https://i.postimg.cc/vDRb2PJp/IMG-2108.jpg)
After several rounds with the small end mill, the center was freed. I'll set that up on the lathe with the riser blocks to turn it to final OD. With the larger diameter, I am using the 4-jaw chuck to hold the blank - it both holds the arbor more securely, plus it has the slot around the edge to clamp it to the rotary table since the larger part gets more turning force on it, and the chuck could unscrew itself otherwise.
(https://i.postimg.cc/dQhCXhMB/IMG-2109.jpg)
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I think you did the worm gear perfectly. It was a nice demonstration of how to make it. For a one-off production, it's totally okay. I like it very much.
Michael
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I think you did the worm gear perfectly. It was a nice demonstration of how to make it. For a one-off production, it's totally okay. I like it very much.
Michael
Thanks Michael!
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Michael, another question for you. I was looking at the pictures again, and have decided to nickle plate the gears and the engine bed and vertical wall plates, since there will be places where the steel would show around bearings, posts, etc, and the brass would not look right. While going through the pictures for that, I noticed this little fitting under where the steering wheels are:
(https://i.postimg.cc/bwJnkg0q/Wall-fitting.jpg)
What is the fitting pointed at by the red arrow?
Thanks!
Chris
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Hi Chris, this is a hook to lock the large steering wheel.
I suspect that there was an eyelet or hole somewhere in the steering wheel to hook into.
There is one more detail on the small gear. There is a hole to put oil on the shaft inside.
Michael
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I think I mentioned before that this sheet metal plate with the eight screws supports a fracture of the casting. You really don't need to rebuild it.
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Great details - that oil hole is interesting, makes sense that it needed a way to oil the inner shaft bearing. Thanks!
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Continued on the larger spur gear today. The OD was turned down to size and the blank taken to thickness on the lathe with the riser blocks in:
(https://i.postimg.cc/J7NznXkK/IMG-2115.jpg)
Since its such a large diameter, a set screw near the hub was drilled/tapped through the blank and into the arbor. This is in a spot where it will be cut out for the spokes later so it wont show. It will ensure the blank doesn't turn on the arbor, especially when milling in the spokes which can put force on it to the side.
(https://i.postimg.cc/hPM48qMd/IMG-2116.jpg)
The mill didn't have quite enough travel to put the blank far enough out to clear the gear cutters, so I had to drill/tap a few new holes in the tooling plate to let the rotary table sit farther out. The M1.75 cutters are a much larger OD than the smaller module cutters I had been using, plus this is a large gear (over 4.1") .
(https://i.postimg.cc/BQJQ1v53/IMG-2117.jpg)
Off to lunch with some friends, might start cutting gear teeth this afternoon, may wait till tomorrow...
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For those who use (or want to use) a rotary table with handwheel to cut gears, keep reading. For all others, including those who use a dividing head with the hole plates or some other setup on their machine, you can skip the rest of this post.
On my machine, a Sherline mill, I use the rotary table to cut gears. Their rotab has a handwheel that turns the table 5 degrees per full handwheel turn, and its marked in 10 major ticks (one per degree) and each of those in 10 more minor ticks (tenths of a degree). To cut gears that have a number of teeth that evenly divides into 360 degrees, thats an easy bit of math to do to determine how many full and partial turns to do per tooth. But, that seems to happen very rarely - more often (like the one I am cutting now) there are some oddball number like 58 teeth, which works out to 6.20689655 degrees per tooth, which is hard to work with!
So, several years ago I made up a handy little spreadsheet to do the math and take care of remembering all those digits of precision and rounding for me (Don also has some great spreadsheets, I started with one of his originally). The spreadsheet got tweaked along the way to make it easier for me to use, as I learned more of the little tricks in Excel and did more models with gears and also a number of clocks with LOTS of gears.
The attached file is where that spreadsheet stands at present. It has two fields to be entered - the number of whole degrees per full turn of the handwheel (I have it set to 5 since thats what I have on my mill), and also the number of teeth in the gear you want to cut. It then spits out a table of moves, first telling you how many full turns to make on each tooth, then a number telling you what handwheel tick to stop on. I set it to display one decimal point on the tick to stop at - even though the handwheel is marked in one degree ticks, its not hard to visually guestimate partial degrees on that scale, and if you are off a fraction of a degree thats usually close enough for what we do.
Here is a screenshot of what the spreadsheet looks like - it goes off the screen, but this example shows all thats needed:
(https://i.postimg.cc/qR0yhSHQ/Rotab-Chart-Screenshot.jpg)
The two yellow boxes are what need to be filled in. One time, set the first one to number of degrees per handwheel at the top, save it again, and you can leave that one alone till you buy a different rotary table.
The second box is the number of teeth in the gear you want to cut, and hit enter or tab. The numbers in the rest of the sheet will update for that gear. In this case, I put in 11 teeth. It gives the stats on the gear first, then there is a table. For this gear, there are 32.7272727 degrees per tooth - an unwieldy number if trying to do this manually, but the computer does all the work.
The table shows to do 6 full turns of the handwheel, then stop on the next number. Start with the handwheel set to the 0 position, cut the first tooth, then turn 6 times and stop at the '27' tick plus .3 more of a tick. Cut that tooth. Then 6 more full turns FROM THAT POSITION, and stop at 4.5 ticks. And so on. Always do the number of turns from where you are, not from 0. For gears with lots of teeth, that full turn number may be 0, so just go from tick number to tick number.
Another key thing - as each move is made and tooth is cut, check off that position so you can keep track of where you are! I learned the hard way early on that without marking it down, I would goof and skip a number or do one twice, ruining the gear. I always print out the chart I am making a gear from, and check things off as I go.
In the example, notice that down on line 20 the box is green with a 0.0 in it. That is where the pattern repeats. There are many cases where the number of teeth will be multiples of the number of entries before the green line. In those cases, make the passes down to the green line, then go back up to the starting 0 and repeat till the gear is done. If you have the spreadsheet downloaded and open, put in 32 teeth in the box, hit enter, and you will see the pattern is '2 full turns then,' followed by the sequence 0.0, 12.5, 25.0, 37.5, then the green line. So, for that gear, you would repeat the same sequence every four cuts.
Now, I've gone through the spreadsheet and believe that I have it all working for rotary tables with degrees/handwheel turn other than 5, but its always possible I missed something - if you find a goof, PLEASE let me know and I'll fix and repost it.
Hope this comes in handy for someone, it has been a huge use for me.
Chris
:cheers: :cheers:
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Great job Chris.
My rotary table has a 90 to 1 worm ratio, how does that work in your program?
Ron
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Great job Chris.
My rotary table has a 90 to 1 worm ratio, how does that work in your program?
Ron
If it has a handwheel with a scale on it, how many degrees does it turn the table with one turn of the handwheel? If no handwheel like that, my spreadsheet does not apply. A 90 to one would be 4 degrees per turn I think. In that case, put '4' in the first yellow box in the spreadsheet and it should work.
Its intended for something like this:
https://www.sherline.com/product/3700-4-rotary-table/#description
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ok, thnks. I'll chk hand wheel today.
Ron
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Continuing on with the gear cutting, the large spur gear is now cut:
(https://i.postimg.cc/j2kGSBkk/IMG-2121.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
and as mentioned in the previous post, I had the rotary table moves printed out and checked them off as I went:
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZY7kHyKF/IMG-2120.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
The gears so far:
(https://i.postimg.cc/gJz5qGCT/IMG-2122.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Next up is the small spur gear. This one goes on the outer shaft at the top, inside this shaft is another one that drives the upper worm gear from the sterring wheel. Started with prepping the blank - it has a larger inside bore than the others to fit over the outer shaft:
(https://i.postimg.cc/dVCzJHR4/IMG-2123.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
It was mounted on an arbor, and the teeth cut in it.
(https://i.postimg.cc/6QLgv8mZ/IMG-2125.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
The cutter also cut into the arbor, no getting around that since the bore is so large and a thin arbor would have been too weak.
(https://i.postimg.cc/s2RbxYwy/IMG-2127.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
The finished small spur gear. The wall thickness at the bore is pretty small, though it will be soldered to the outer shaft which will strengthen it. I'm wondering if I should remake it as part of that outer shaft... :thinking:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Kvw6SST1/IMG-2128.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
And the obligatory family shot of parts so far:
(https://i.postimg.cc/ydLGLwBY/IMG-2130.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Next steps will either to remake that small spur gear as part of the shaft, which wont take very long, or go ahead to start cutting the spokes in the larger two gears... Good place to go get some lunch and ponder that.
Won't be much progress over the next several days, got another big event happening this weekend so no shop time after today till Tuesday. Thanks for watching along!
Chris
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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After lunch decided to go ahead and remake that one small gear integral to the shaft it sits on, it will be much stronger this way. Turned up a longer blank, which was used as its own arbor. Being narrower and sticking out from the chuck, I set up the tail end support for it too.
(https://i.postimg.cc/PqyhkVh0/IMG-2133.jpg)
Cut in the gears like before
(https://i.postimg.cc/Jnh873z0/IMG-2135.jpg)
Here is the fut gear. It will get a half-lap cut on the short end, that will engage with the control nut on the smaller worm gear later.
(https://i.postimg.cc/25rmMNp4/IMG-2136.jpg)
And an updated family shot, with the first attempt at the small gear exiled to the upper right corner :Lol:
(https://i.postimg.cc/k4hm2V2c/IMG-2137.jpg)
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Hello Chris, I thought you glued the small gear onto a shaft. But of course that's how it works. This shaft in particular is a complicated part. I'm still excited.
Michael
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Yes, the gear has to be able to be driven by the engine through the larger gear underneath, while the inner shaft and the small worm gear on it get driven by the smaller of the steering wheels. So the outer shaft has to be able to turn seperately from the inner one.
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Yes, I have to admit that I myself have to think hard about how it works. When in doubt, I go into the garage and turn the steering wheel.
Incidentally, if you disconnect the clutch for manual operation from the large gear wheel, the machine runs without STOP.
Michael
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Just got back from my latest trip up to Maine, this weekend was the annual 2-day event up at the Maine Forest and Logging Museum. Lombards (steam and gas) running around, all the sawmills going, the line machine shop running, blacksmith, re-enactors, all sorts of stuiff in all directions. I've been volunteering up there for 5 years or so, helping run the Lombards - mostly steering and taking turns at the throttle too. Great fun! A couple of the guys from the Boston Waterworks museum came up Saturday, as did forum member Ron Ginger. Great way to cap off the season.
Here are a couple of videos that Herb up at the museum posted - I have some pics and videos still on my camera, will likely post some of that tomorrow...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tf4T_pKz-gQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJs6aneDad0
https://photos.app.goo.gl/gTDTBceXWMS7CKe56
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Hey Chris!
Glad you had a great time up north, and we're glad you're back safely.
Thanks for the videos, looks like it was a lot of fun!
Kim
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Hey Chris!
Glad you had a great time up north, and we're glad you're back safely.
Thanks for the videos, looks like it was a lot of fun!
Kim
Great time there. The weather was perfect for it, sunny and low to mid 60s, leaves are turned up there so great scenery too. Pretty big turnout both days.
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Great videos! a treat to see them. Thanks for posting! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :cheers:
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Back playing in the shop this morning, starting in on cutting the spokes for the two larger gears. These differ a bit from others that I have done in the past in that the inner corners are a larger radius, so the cutting method has to change. I went back into the CAD model, and added two more pages to the drawings for the gears (pages 6 and 7 of the attached PDF file). In these drawings I added the angle, diameter, and offset from center for each of the spoke end arcs. With those measurements, I can easily set up on the rotary table and drill holes at each of those center points. I drilled them 1/8" to match the diameters of 5-40 screws used in the drilling/milling jig. I would have gone bigger size screws, but the radius of the arcs dictated the size - I wanted to leave the screw holes for later steps. So, the rotary table was centered up on the mill head, and offset the distance to the outer holes, then rotated the angle to the first hole. From there, advancing 90 degrees at a time to the other holes. Same for the second hole, on the opposite side of the spokes.
(https://i.postimg.cc/wTmWcZGH/IMG-2139.jpg)
Back to the center position and angle, and did likewise for the inner holes for the arcs at the center. I also added another hole in the center of the arcs between the spokes - these will be used to have another screw holding the gear during milling steps. The extra ones are circled in blue.
(https://i.postimg.cc/8k3KvNwt/IMG-2140.jpg)
Now, thats a lot of holes, and it would be easy to get confused and mill in the wrong place, so I sketched on the spokes to help out with that.
(https://i.postimg.cc/mgWmdjv9/IMG-2141.jpg)
While things were set up and the table centered, I did the corresponding holes in the worm wheel (different positions, same method)
(https://i.postimg.cc/zGw04WNc/IMG-2143.jpg)
So, ready to start milling the arcs in each corner back on the larger gear. One screw goes through the hole next to the arc to be cut, the other three hold the gear in place and keep it from rotating. The gear is now held on another arbor, one that I've used a number of times in the past so you can see extra holes in it. To drill the holes in the arbor, I started with the center hole, drilled/tapped on the lathe so I knew it was correctly centered. The gear was screwed down through one of the holes next to an outer arc position, and three other holes used as drill guides to drill the holes there. Started with the same clearance 1/8" size to spot the hole in the arbor, then switched to the tap size drill to go through the arbor. Here it is all screwed down:
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZqTVmRKK/IMG-2144.jpg)
Then, the center screw was removed since its head would be in the way for milling.
(https://i.postimg.cc/rmsjdPrB/IMG-2145.jpg)
A 1/8" diameter end mill was centered on the opening, and moved over to cut the desired arc, minus 20 thou. I first took several shallower cuts to get through the gear, then moved over the final distance and trimmed the arc to the final size. This gave a smoother finish than doing the shallow cuts at the final radius.
(https://i.postimg.cc/FKDGH47b/IMG-2146.jpg)
So, one down, three more to do for the other corners on that side of the spokes. then I can flip the gear over and do the other four from the other side, using the same holes in the arbor. After that, same steps on the larger arcs in the center. This is going to take a while, but the results should look good.
:cheers:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Chris, I see you had a nice weekend too.
There is plenty for visitors to see how people lived and worked over a hundred years ago.
This steam engine as a tracked vehicle is really rare but useful in the forest.
As a helmsman, do you always have it warm in your back 😉.
The gears take a lot of effort but it will pay off.
Michael
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Chris, I see you had a nice weekend too.
There is plenty for visitors to see how people lived and worked over a hundred years ago.
This steam engine as a tracked vehicle is really rare but useful in the forest.
As a helmsman, do you always have it warm in your back 😉.
The gears take a lot of effort but it will pay off.
Michael
The smokebox cover behind the steersmans back is warm but not too hot to touch, no where near as hot as the boiler sections with the water behind them. Back in the cab its a lot hotter. It was very comfortable with the temperature in the low 60s outside.
Out of about 85 built, there are about 6 left, this is the only steam Lombard still run regularly. The museum has a second one on display, on loan from a local family, that is runnable but the boiler is not inspected to run with public riders. The museum has two gas powered ones they run, with a third on the way. The owner of the gas ones has a fourth being restored too, plus he has most of the parts for a steamer that he is restoring, long way to go on that one.
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Got my pics off the camera, and put together a compilation of video clips of the Lombards trundling around. In the first clip, we were heading down the hill to pick up a load of wood using the Lombard dump truck. Note the heads poppping out of the re-enactor tents (was first thing in the morning) as they heard us coming around the corner. At the end is a clip from the belt driven machine shop, they had just gotten the big shaper running and were taking down the surface on an engine head (scrap one, for practice)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjGGPcyUAkA
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Quite a bit more done on the gears yesterday and this morning. Got the rest of the inside corners done on the outer ends of the big gear
(https://i.postimg.cc/FR6Dcd2F/IMG-2151.jpg)
On the worm wheel, the outer end holes were small enough to just drill them to size.
(https://i.postimg.cc/5yFpm9VB/IMG-2152.jpg)
Then cut the arcs between the spokes out at the rim. First cuts were inboard a bit, then finish cut out to final diameter. On the worm wheel, I had to cut from both sides since the gear is too thick for the small end mill to reach through.
(https://i.postimg.cc/mhfjpxL0/IMG-2154.jpg)
On the large gear the cutter made it through from one side. Same process of starter cut inboard then finish cut.
(https://i.postimg.cc/BZLGzxZg/IMG-2155.jpg)
Another set of holes in the arbor, and cut the arcs near the hub
(https://i.postimg.cc/yY0C1sZ3/IMG-2158.jpg)
Same on the worm wheel. Again, cuts from either side. The straight section of the spokes on this gear will be short.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Y25wBhhw/IMG-2159.jpg)
Before cutting the straight sections to remove the last of the material between the spokes, I did what I should have earlier on, and drilled the mounting holes for the sprocket and clutch on the large gear. The holes are countersunk so I can recess a set of socket head screws. These screws will also be handy for ensuring the gear does not turn when milling the sides of the spokes.
(https://i.postimg.cc/523czgpx/IMG-2160.jpg)
With the mill at that position, also drilled/tapped the matching holes in the blank that will become the sprocket holder and one side of the clutch (it is possible to disengage the steam engine portion of the drive train to allow manual steering in case of breakdown of the engine or loss of steam).
(https://i.postimg.cc/P5hsN9W3/IMG-2161.jpg)
Here it is set up for cutting down the sides of the spokes.
(https://i.postimg.cc/QMx2J7nc/IMG-2162.jpg)
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That last picture is quite artsy. Almost looks like a sound board for a stringed instrument. Nice!
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That last picture is quite artsy. Almost looks like a sound board for a stringed instrument. Nice!
It does have a good ring if you tap the edge! A GearTar? :Lol:
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It rings, eh? I bell lieve it! :Lol: :facepalm:
Looking great! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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You guys and your puns! :facepalm2:
Great work on the gears though, in spite of the puns! :popcorn: :popcorn:
Chris, why didn't you just drill a hole for the outer corners on the large gear? I was wondering that yesterday but forgot to ask. Then saw that you did that very thing on the worm wheel and it made me wonder all over again!
Thanks,
Kim
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You guys and your puns! :facepalm2:
Great work on the gears though, in spite of the puns! :popcorn: :popcorn:
Chris, why didn't you just drill a hole for the outer corners on the large gear? I was wondering that yesterday but forgot to ask. Then saw that you did that very thing on the worm wheel and it made me wonder all over again!
Thanks,
Kim
On the larger gear the diameter of the outer ends of the spokes is much larger, too big for a drill, other option would have been to use the boring head. The inner diameter on both gears is large too.
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You guys and your puns! :facepalm2:
Great work on the gears though, in spite of the puns! :popcorn: :popcorn:
Chris, why didn't you just drill a hole for the outer corners on the large gear? I was wondering that yesterday but forgot to ask. Then saw that you did that very thing on the worm wheel and it made me wonder all over again!
Thanks,
Kim
On the larger gear the diameter of the outer ends of the spokes is much larger, too big for a drill, other option would have been to use the boring head. The inner diameter on both gears is large too.
Ah... makes sense. I'm picturing them the size of other gears you've made but these are bigger I guess. What's the radius of the holes you've used in the gears around the spokes? I guess I'm just having a hard time getting my mind around what size they really are!
Kim
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You guys and your puns! :facepalm2:
Great work on the gears though, in spite of the puns! :popcorn: :popcorn:
Chris, why didn't you just drill a hole for the outer corners on the large gear? I was wondering that yesterday but forgot to ask. Then saw that you did that very thing on the worm wheel and it made me wonder all over again!
Thanks,
Kim
On the larger gear the diameter of the outer ends of the spokes is much larger, too big for a drill, other option would have been to use the boring head. The inner diameter on both gears is large too.
Ah... makes sense. I'm picturing them the size of other gears you've made but these are bigger I guess. What's the radius of the holes you've used in the gears around the spokes? I guess I'm just having a hard time getting my mind around what size they really are!
Kim
Yeah most I have made were in the 1 to 3 inch range, this one is over 4 inches. I posted the pdf of the gear drawings back in post 141, that shows the spoke details on pages 6 and 7.
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Yeah most I have made were in the 1 to 3 inch range, this one is over 4 inches. I posted the pdf of the gear drawings back in post 141, that shows the spoke details on pages 6 and 7.
Wow, I didn't even notice that attachment! I had to go back and look at it.
Lots of good info there! But I didn't see where you gave the diameter of the large gear. Just the inside radius, not the tip diameter or reference diameter or whatever it's called for a gear. I'm sure it's there, but I didn't see it. It did say something about tooth details TBD though. Maybe that was part of the TBD?
Kim
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Yes, I hadn't yet worked out which module cutters and how many teeth on each gear when I drew up the CAD model. I'll add that in to the final plans later, think I have mentioned those numbers in the posts along the way. Same sizes overall, just had to add a few teeth to the counts, got within a few thou of the design.
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Continuing on again with the gear spokes, ran down the sides of the spokes on the larger gear to remove the pie shaped pieces between them
(https://i.postimg.cc/bvMGKrwW/IMG-2163.jpg)
The pile of pie pieces will be fed to the shop elve's goat...
(https://i.postimg.cc/4d9KZGKd/IMG-2164.jpg)
Then took finish cuts down each side - the first cuts were made back a little from the final dimensions, this way gives a better finish on the surface
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZnzW5Q3L/IMG-2165.jpg)
Then the final sequences, cuts down both sides of each spoke, on both sides of the gear, to give the finished spokes a '+' shape
(https://i.postimg.cc/7h1fGNnr/IMG-2167.jpg)
Kim - you wanted a better feel for how big this gear is - here it is with all the spokes cut and the extension for the sprocket and clutch bolted on:
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZKcWJVqr/IMG-2170.jpg)
So, now on to do the same spoke shaping on the smaller worm wheel:
(https://i.postimg.cc/KctKHZSp/IMG-2171.jpg)
So far I have the waste pieces in the center of each spoke space removed
(https://i.postimg.cc/hPgJFHKD/IMG-2172.jpg)
As with the previous cuts on this gear, everything has to be done twice, once from each side, since the gear is so thick. Still remaining is to make the cuts to form the '+' shape on each spoke... Good place to break for lunch!
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Wow! That's a good sized gear, Chris! :o
Lot's of work into crossing out those gears, eh? You're doing a fabulous job, as always, Chris! :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
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Hello Chris,
The big gear looks very nice. You did an excellent job with the spokes in the + cross section. Of course, that costs extra time.
I'm just wondering if there are such small >bicycle chains< for the connection to the rudder? Do you already have an idea?
I look forward to further progress.
Michael
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Hello Chris,
The big gear looks very nice. You did an excellent job with the spokes in the + cross section. Of course, that costs extra time.
I'm just wondering if there are such small >bicycle chains< for the connection to the rudder? Do you already have an idea?
I look forward to further progress.
Michael
Hi Michael,
I do have some 1/4" pitch bicycle type chain and sprockets that I used on the Mann truck, it is available from a number of sources here, especially the robotics suppliers all carry it. It would be nice to go smaller than that though, plus if I am going to hook up a rudder section the chain needs to turn on two planes, port/starboard around the steering engine, then fore/aft to head back to the rudder. Either that means a 90 degree turned link, or using a normal link chain which can bend in any direction. The 90 degree link would need to be far enough from the steering engine to let the sprocket on the engine make several full turns, which means that there would have to be a lot more height to the model. Using a standard link chain is possible, it just takes a different shape sprocket, which I have made for clocks in the past. Standard link chain is readily available in many sizes too.
Another option is to use cable - on the steering engine that I saw at the show at Mystic Seaport, there was a drum with a spiral slot for the cable to run in. That would work, but the drum takes up a lot more room on the shaft - that engine did not have a clutch to disengage the engine so it had more room for the drum.
So, no hard decision yet, but I need to decide soon.
Chris
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Wow! That's a good sized gear, Chris! :o
Lot's of work into crossing out those gears, eh? You're doing a fabulous job, as always, Chris! :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
Thanks Kim! Quite a few steps, and making sure the alignment from one side to the other means a lot of checking measurements. :cheers:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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The bicycle chain does not have to change direction. There is a transition to normal link chain.
It is deflected backwards via rollers.
Michael
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I have a picture of it:
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The bicycle chain does not have to change direction. There is a transition to normal link chain.
It is deflected backwards via rollers.
Michael
Good to know! The roller chain would still have to be long enough for the several rotations of the shaft and sprocket either direction, which means the model would have to be larger. At first I was thinking taller, but if it was wider, the roller chain could go out to the side, transition to the link chain, then around a roller back to the rudder. That could work! Could even make a scale model of the engine room telegraph to put next to the steering engine...
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The spokes of the worm wheel were milled to form the '+' shape like the larger one was. Same process, just different dimensions...
(https://i.postimg.cc/GpCC51Fr/IMG-2173.jpg)
Here are the gears so far:
(https://i.postimg.cc/GpxC0SKD/IMG-2177.jpg)
Before I start laying out the vertical walls, I wanted to do one more check of the shaft-to-shaft distances on the large gear and the smaller spur gear. To do that, I dug out one of the gear meshing tools made years ago when making clocks. This tool has two pivots, one fixed, one moveable, so it can be adjusted for different size gears. To handle different hub hole sizes, it is neccessary to make a little bushing to fit over the pivot and inside the hub. Then the gears are set in place and the handwheel turned to bring the gears into mesh. You want an easy movement, but without too much backlash slop. Once that is achieved, the gears are pulled off, and the distance between the pivots can be measured to find the optimum shaft spacing. For clocks, it is common to drill the first pivot hole in the side plate, and use the sharp tips of the pivots on the tool to scribe from there to the location for the other pivot - one of the points is placed in the plate hole, and the other point umoved like a compass scribe.
(https://i.postimg.cc/HxWCT4vh/IMG-2178.jpg)
Here is the tool with the gears pulled off to show the mechanism. The two blocks on the right are fixed and threaded for the threaded rod. The block at the end of the rod to the left moves with the rod - it has a pair of e-clips to hold it on the end of the rod. That block and the second from the right have the black pointed pivots in them. The block farthest to the left is also fixed, handy to do small gears without having to wind the rod all the way back. I measured the distance between the points, and it is only a few thou under the designed distance, so I'll note that on the plan sheet for when I make the vertical walls.
(https://i.postimg.cc/xCsV8JWT/IMG-2179.jpg)
There are several types of meshing tools that clockmakers use - all do the same job, just different ways to make them. Very simple to make, and great for testing gears before drilling the shaft holes BEFORE finding out the distance is wrong! Just a little off and the gears will either bind up or run too sloppy or miss teeth if too far apart.
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Unfortunately, I only have information on how the chain is arranged in the rear part of the ship.
I don't know what it looks like under the wheelhouse.
I'll find out.
Michael
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Very interesting mechanism! I have not seen that type of yoke/slot setup on a rudder before, usually I see a quadrant arc with the chain going around the wheel directly on the rudder post. Thanks!
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Thank you for showing - not only the Very Nice Gears, but also the Nifty Tool to measure the optimal distance :praise2:
I better get more :popcorn: and :cheers:
Per
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Thank you for showing - not only the Very Nice Gears, but also the Nifty Tool to measure the optimal distance :praise2:
I better get more :popcorn: and :cheers:
Per
That explains the popcorn boxes and spilled kernels on the lawn outside the workshop window! :lolb:
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Been doing some paint testing this week. As anyone who has painted brass knows, the finish is fragile, and the paint easily scraped off. As Michael recommended to me, I tried some primer first. Lots of types to choose from, I found a self etching primer from the same line of paint I have been using.
Took a piece of scrap brass, painted on the color direct on the brass in one spot, next to it the primer first. At one end, another set over an area that was nickel plated first, since I want portions plated to look like steel next to painted areas. I had read that nickel plating also didn't take paint well
After time to cure, gave it some scrape tests with a high tech fingernail. ::) Results are consistent, areas directly painted on the brass and nickel scrape off under fair pressure. The areas of both surfaces primed first are much tougher, paint and primer stuck on hard. The paint I'm using is the Duplicolor Engine Enamel With Ceramic, which is a high temperature spray paint that dries quick, goes on thin, needs no oven cure. Used thier self etching spray on primer.
So, that test gives a good path forward to get the forest green panels and black gears, with the steel look where appropriate.
:DrinkPint:
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Excellent damn Dog you make me proud of you. Love the gears and the measuring attachment is a plus….. :Love: oh and did I say ……I……………likeeeeeee…. :drinking-41:
Don
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You can use tool makers buttons as well.
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You can use tool makers buttons as well.
Tool makers buttons?? What are they? (other than what holds the front of their shirt together?)
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Thanks Don!! :cheers:
Last bit of milling on the engine bed before doing some plating on it - with the rotary table and arbor set up, was a perfect time to round off the bases for the uprights at the front of the engine cylinders. I had left them square till now.
(https://i.postimg.cc/507KZj7h/IMG-2180.jpg)
Here they are all done
(https://i.postimg.cc/rsDZcc7K/IMG-2181.jpg)
I have the worm wheel in the plating tank now, going back and turning it once in a while since the plating tends to work first in line-of-sight between the nickel donor rod and the part. I'll get both gears plated, then start on the engine bed.
While they are perking away, I've started laying out the material for the upright walls. They are starting with some 3/8" thick flat bar, will cut the outer profile first, then I think do the holes for the shafts and cross bars. Both walls are different, just the main shaft holes in the same places on each. Both need to get some extensions added for the 'feet' at the bottom corners, extensions for the bearings, and the front one gets a flange for the clutch plus the two engine mounts stick out. All those parts need to be made, notched for, and silver soldered in place. To enable clamping to the mill table for shaping, I am going to do as much shaping as possible before soldering on those extra parts.
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For those who want to pursue Chris' gear spacing tool further, watchmakers call it a "depthing tool". There are other mechanical designs but they all work with the same principle - fine adjustment of the gear mesh and then the shafts on which the gears ride can be used directly, vis sharply pointed ends, to mark the location of the axle holes on the bedplate.
Steamer needs to provide a bit more explanation. Toolmaker's buttons can be used to precisely position one hole relative to another but how do you determine the right mesh dimension ? Are the gears mounted to the buttons somehow ?
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Hi Chris, a question about your post on the experiment with color. There are paragraphs in the text. Should there be pictures?
Unfortunately I don't see any pictures of your scratch attempt.
You did a good job with the curves on the machine base.
Michael
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Hi Michael, no pictures in that post. I know where under the paint was plated and/or primed, but a picture of the end result wouldn't mean much to anyone else, other than you can see paint scraped off in some places.
Marv is correct, depthing tool is the correct name. If you google that term you'll see lots of variation on the theme, all do the same job. They've been around for the last century or two. Easy to make, very useful for laying out gear trains.
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Two things in progress at the same time today - started on the vertical wall plates, and also have started on the nickel plating of the parts made so far. I started with the worm wheel since it has the tightest spaces between the gear teeth, and I wanted to make sure the plating would work there. Here it is after a few hours, turning and repositioning the gear and the nickel donor rod to get around all the angles:
(https://i.postimg.cc/vmQcKm6L/IMG-2184.jpg)
Pretty happy with how that worked out, good coverage all round. I was not that concerned about the inside corners on the spokes, since everything inside that little decorative ring just outside the spokes will be painted black on the gears. That hole opposite the keyway was there to help hold it during milling, it will be filled in with some epoxy before painting. Quite a difference in appearance from the raw brass, now it looks more like the proper steel gear. :wine1:
Also, got the blanks for the wall plates rough cut from a larger piece of flat bar stock (stress relieved in the oven back when I did the other blocks). They are cut a little oversize so they can be trimmed to match the design and each other. Both have the same outline size/shape, but will have different cutouts and some holes different sizes. The two blanks were clamped together to drill/tap some 5-40 holes to hold them together for the shaping and drilling. These holes are in places where there will be window cutouts.
(https://i.postimg.cc/mZq1rR0B/IMG-2182.jpg)
And the two plates screwed together, ready for shaping the outside. I'll start with the bottom edge, and use that as a reference point for all that follows.
(https://i.postimg.cc/K871QT48/IMG-2183.jpg)
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
How many 45 gallon drums of brass chips and swarf have the shop elves shifted so far this build? :Lol:
Happy Thanksgiving to you Chris, and to everyone else on the forum.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
How many 45 gallon drums of brass chips and swarf have the shop elves shifted so far this build? :Lol:
Happy Thanksgiving to you Chris, and to everyone else on the forum.
Well, they have FILLED a few, but shift them? Nope! They leave that to me! :Lol:
Ah, I'd forgotten it was Thanksgiving up in Canada! Enjoy! Ours is near the end of November. :cheers:
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:cheers:
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For those who want to pursue Chris' gear spacing tool further, watchmakers call it a "depthing tool". There are other mechanical designs but they all work with the same principle - fine adjustment of the gear mesh and then the shafts on which the gears ride can be used directly, vis sharply pointed ends, to mark the location of the axle holes on the bedplate.
Steamer needs to provide a bit more explanation. Toolmaker's buttons can be used to precisely position one hole relative to another but how do you determine the right mesh dimension ? Are the gears mounted to the buttons somehow ?
That's exactly what I mean. Sorry I responded from work and could not elabora
Post #443
https://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,237.440.html
Here shows me using tool makers buttons to locate a set of gears for machining the gear shaft bearing holes.
The very rough location for the hole is drilled and tapped for a small screw. ( smaller than the hole....) The purpose of this screw is to hold the button in place
Then the button, turned to fit the gear bore, is attached and the mesh of the gear adjusted by moving the button around. When you have it where you want it, tighten the screw. Then slip the gear off the button. Now you have the exact location that your looking for. Tram the button in to being on center with the mill spindle, or lathe spindle and machine your hole.
Size the holding screw so that it is small enough that once machined the threaded hole is removed.
Dave
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Tool makers buttons are generally cylinders, but they don't need to be straight sided, they can have shoulders too. It can be any round cylindrical shape you like, but makes sure they are round and the ends are square to the diameter.
Dave
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Got it! Always a number of different ways to do any task. Thanks for the explanation. :cheers:
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The nice thing about this method of locating gears is if they are not quite perfect....you dial out the error.
Dave
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Some more nickel plating, got the second gear done. Again, the area at the hub/spokes will be painted black on both, the outer rim/teeth left the plated color. I am going to wait on the small spur gear since it still needs some shaping at the hub. Right now, the engine bed is in getting nickeled (and dimed?)
(https://i.postimg.cc/BvhK0mtt/IMG-2185.jpg)
I've started shaping the vertical plates that I got rough cut and bolted together yesterday. Started wiith trueing up the bottom surface:
(https://i.postimg.cc/wv7sTDs2/IMG-2186.jpg)
Then both side faces to get it to final width:
(https://i.postimg.cc/3RV0yWXT/IMG-2187.jpg)
Next will be to take the top to final height, then will do the angled sides.
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Got the top end of the wall plates milled back to size
(https://i.postimg.cc/Qt3n2gYB/IMG-2188.jpg)
Then was about to remove it from the mill to shape the angled sides, but realized it was the perfect time to drill/bore the holes for the shafts since it was already squared up on the table. Found the centerline, measured up from the bottom face, and drilled the two shaft holes and the 2 crossbar holes through both plates. The lower shaft hole was bored out to size - I took that one wider than needed for the bearing, since I want to put in an insert there that sticks out from the face and has the gussets already on it.
(https://i.postimg.cc/MHZ3T6Sq/IMG-2190.jpg)
The upper shaft hole on the front plate is set, but the upper hole on the rear plate needs to be larger to take the outer shaft that the spur gear is part of. So, had to take off the front plate from the stack, re-align the plate, and bore the hole in the rear plate out to size. Here again will be putting in an insert.
(https://i.postimg.cc/3RFbYyzt/IMG-2191.jpg)
In the background, had the engine bed in the plating tank. That was a slow process, given its size - had to keep moving the nickel donor rod around in the tank to get even coverage since it deposits more metal on areas closer to the rod. Aside from the raised bosses, the rest of the base will be painted.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Znf7vGb3/IMG-2192.jpg)
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Chris, I think with the spokes in black the gears will look nice. As in the original.
Michael
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Thanks guys! I'm going to paint it like the ones in your pictures, green and black, its a great look.
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That Nickel plating is an interesting process :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: I'm still trying to keep up with the progress :praise2: :praise2: :wine1:
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That Nickel plating is an interesting process :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: I'm still trying to keep up with the progress :praise2: :praise2: :wine1:
Great to have you following along. I did a thread on the nickel plating back a while, its not hard to do and the materials are cheap and easy to get. I don't think I'll need to plate the vertical walls, the parts that would show steel will be soldered on, like the engine mounts/crosshead guides.
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This morning finished up the outside profile by trimming the angled sides to dimension:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Jz4Ms2JQ/IMG-2193.jpg)
Couldn't resist setting up the walls to see how they look on the base:
(https://i.postimg.cc/prHtRGRz/IMG-2194.jpg)
There are extensions at the bottom corners that help stabilize the walls in the front/back direction. Those will be silver soldered on later, but I needed to notch for the parts now while the plates are full thickness and can be clamped in the vise better. The walls will be thin after recessing the sides.
(https://i.postimg.cc/g0xpDLgX/IMG-2195.jpg)
Also a notch for the bracket to hold the clutch handle on the front plate only
(https://i.postimg.cc/XYH3dkk6/IMG-2196.jpg)
Sketched on the openings to be recessed into one side of each wall. The patterns are different on each wall.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Qt53LGGj/IMG-2197.jpg)
And set up to start the milling of the recesses. I'll take out the bulk of the material with a normal end mill, then do the finish cuts around the edges with the radiused end mill cutter. The parts around the holes will need to be finished up on the roatary table.
(https://i.postimg.cc/W4xvfpy9/IMG-2198.jpg)
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The first sample line-up is very convincing. We can see how it grows.
Now the chips will fly again.
Michael
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With the plates full thickness and no recesses, at first the gap between the plates looked very small! Going to be some tight spaces to get the pipes and valve hooked up.
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Yes, the copper plumbing is going to be a problem. And I think it doesn't matter what scale the model is built in. You can already see how the fitters must have cursed themselves with the original engine when they connected the cylinders.
But time comes advice.
Michael
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Just remember the piping route mantra "o-rings and velcro , o-rings and velcro".... :Lol:
Side-entry flanges and all open holes in the flanges, with nuts (no tapped holes in flanges) might be the plan du jour, along with close cropped elbows soldered to flange faces. :cheers:
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Just remember the piping route mantra "o-rings and velcro , o-rings and velcro".... :Lol:
Side-entry flanges and all open holes in the flanges, with nuts (no tapped holes in flanges) might be the plan du jour, along with close cropped elbows soldered to flange faces. :cheers:
If it was Duct Tape And Zipties, it would be a Roadkill episode. Or a Red Green episode for those that remember that.
I do have the small cast tees and elbows from the last couple builds, which will help. Side entrance flanges may be good for the sides of the valve body, with studs on the valve. Also have some small Regner compression fittings, have to see if they are small enough.
:cheers:
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Yes, the copper plumbing is going to be a problem. And I think it doesn't matter what scale the model is built in. You can already see how the fitters must have cursed themselves with the original engine when they connected the cylinders.
But time comes advice.
Michael
The piping on the engine you showed on the ship, which is routed around the sides of the walls, will be how I want to do it. Still a close fit, but the bends are not as tight a radius. The position of the valve and its linkages makes it like working on the radiator and water pump on a car, down between many other parts. Still, its a fun design!
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The excavations into the vertical plates has begun! Started on the rear wall plate first. Am taking out the bulk of the material with a square end cutter first, then will come back later and trim the flanges to thickness with a radiused end cutter to leave the arc on the inside corners.
(https://i.postimg.cc/1tNY9Xhb/IMG-2199.jpg)
When I get to the corner areas, the hold down clamp on that corner has to be removed to give room for the cutter. This brass was stress relieved in the oven back when I made the engine bed, so it is staying flat during this process. If it was not stress relieved, it would have started warping more as each section was cut out.
Continued on to the lower quadrants...
(https://i.postimg.cc/Kvbs2m9s/IMG-2200.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/cCyk6WdC/IMG-2201.jpg)
Here is the plate so far, set in place on the engine bed. The window openings will be cut after the flanges are trimmed to thickness.
(https://i.postimg.cc/pVz14mBF/IMG-2202.jpg)
Now starting in on the front plate. These recesses are different than the ones on the rear wall plate, since this one will get openings for the engine mounts and the control valve.
(https://i.postimg.cc/hvLydYGr/IMG-2203.jpg)
Lots of cranking handwheels left!
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Glad to hear that after the stress relief the plates aren't turning into bananium ! :Lol:
If the swarf / chips get out of hand, I could send you the Wisconsin V-4 powered conveyor belt. It is still advanced about 5 degrees too far and has no muffler, but it's still popular with the neighbours.... :disagree: :Lol: :cheers:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Glad to hear that after the stress relief the plates aren't turning into bananium ! :Lol:
If the swarf / chips get out of hand, I could send you the Wisconsin V-4 powered conveyor belt. It is still advanced about 5 degrees too far and has no muffler, but it's still popular with the neighbours.... :disagree: :Lol: :cheers:
Send it - I'll fire it up when the neighbors kids are outside and making lots of noise! Be sure to add in the squealing-bearing option! :LittleDevil:
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Oh there's squealin bearings all right.... except the one that was greased in 1972 - it's dead quiet. :Lol: Unit's on its' way! :Lol:
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Great progress on the upright plates, Chris.
Question: When you're hogging out those recesses, do you do full-depth passes? If so, how much do you take of in each pass? Or do you do wider passes and do them at multiple depths to get the full depth of the recess? I always struggle with the best approach for something like this and am curious how you do it.
Kim
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Hi Kim,
Fir these I am taking full depth passes, .295 if I recall, first taking one pass down the side of the recess. Then am moving over .125 for each subsequent pass. That seems to work well for speed of cut while keeping chatter down. Since the cutter will flex slightly I always do the initial passes away from the final dimensions and making a final trim pass around .020 to get it to size.
That works great for brass. On 303 stainless steel with a narrow cutter I would do the initial slot in shallower passes, maybe .050, then the rest of the passes at around .125 deep and wide. With a wider cutter could do wider but still shallow passes. Which is part of why I love brass, much easier to cut, less wear on tools, just nice to work.
:cheers:
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Thanks Chris for the explanation. I was also interested in how you do it.
Here we see what else Chris has to process with the milling machine. The workshop elves will bring lots of brass shavings to the local scrap metal dealer. And secretly buy beer with the money.
best regards Michael
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Great picture Michael, shows where I am going quite well. On the other side of the panel it also gets this extension/gussets around the shaft hole, plus the blocks for the engine mount and crosshead guides. Lots still to go, those elves are going to be rolling in beer money!
(https://i.postimg.cc/0NbG74Qs/IMG-20220824-214031-1080-x-720-pixel.jpg)
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More trimming of the recesses in the wall panels, this time with the radius-end cutter
(https://i.postimg.cc/gJ8dnLM8/IMG-2205.jpg)
finished with the angled side walls. Still to do on this one are the arcs around the shaft holes, that will be done on the rotary table after the other wall panel is up to this stage...
(https://i.postimg.cc/L5SSf477/IMG-2206.jpg)
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Both wall plates are now trimmed around the flanges, next step will be to set up on the rotary table to do the bits around the shafts. Thats enough cranking for today though!
(https://i.postimg.cc/52tMVRLh/IMG-2208.jpg)
I was able to sneak into the shop elves garage (why is THEIRS air conditioned and carpeted? :cussing: ) and steal some roller chain off their motorcycle:
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZKHhXSBP/IMG-2207.jpg)
Smallest I've seen, it has a pitch of .1475", should work great fort the steering engine output. The cost of sprockets for this stuff is crazy high, but I was able to find the CAD files for some and will copy those dimensions. It will need drilling a circle of holes on the right center distance then trimming around the tips of the teeth.
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very good 👍
What did you install in the motorcycle for the two of them instead of the roller chain?
A rubber band?
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very good 👍
What did you install in the motorcycle for the two of them instead of the roller chain?
A rubber band?
Yes! :ROFL:
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:Lol: :cheers: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Both wall plates are now trimmed around the flanges, next step will be to set up on the rotary table to do the bits around the shafts. Thats enough cranking for today though!
(https://i.postimg.cc/52tMVRLh/IMG-2208.jpg)
I was able to sneak into the shop elves garage (why is THEIRS air conditioned and carpeted? :cussing: ) and steal some roller chain off their motorcycle:
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZKHhXSBP/IMG-2207.jpg)
Smallest I've seen, it has a pitch of .1475", should work great fort the steering engine output. The cost of sprockets for this stuff is crazy high, but I was able to find the CAD files for some and will copy those dimensions. It will need drilling a circle of holes on the right center distance then trimming around the tips of the teeth.
There's another way to make those cogs....... 8) Just sayin
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Both wall plates are now trimmed around the flanges, next step will be to set up on the rotary table to do the bits around the shafts. Thats enough cranking for today though!
(https://i.postimg.cc/52tMVRLh/IMG-2208.jpg)
I was able to sneak into the shop elves garage (why is THEIRS air conditioned and carpeted? :cussing: ) and steal some roller chain off their motorcycle:
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZKHhXSBP/IMG-2207.jpg)
Smallest I've seen, it has a pitch of .1475", should work great fort the steering engine output. The cost of sprockets for this stuff is crazy high, but I was able to find the CAD files for some and will copy those dimensions. It will need drilling a circle of holes on the right center distance then trimming around the tips of the teeth.
There's another way to make those cogs....... 8) Just sayin
Theres several ways, which way are you thinking? The rollers are about .060" diameter. On clocks sometimes they use pins rather than cutting the teeth. Could also be sawn with a slitting saw.
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Just had another thought, wonder if one of the involute gear cutters would work for cutting the sprocket??
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Just had another thought, wonder if one of the involute gear cutters would work for cutting the sprocket??
It's actually not an involute, but an cycloidal cutter....but my 440 don't care.....
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You stole the chain off their motorcycle and replaced it with a rubber band? GOOD GOD man, now they've got ammunition for their rubber band cannon. Watch your back!
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You stole the chain off their motorcycle and replaced it with a rubber band? GOOD GOD man, now they've got ammunition for their rubber band cannon. Watch your back!
:paranoia:
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The flanges around the shaft holes on the walls have been cleaned up and rounded off, held with an arbor on the rotary table:
(https://i.postimg.cc/65tkVp6V/IMG-2210.jpg)
Same with the smaller holes for the cross bars
(https://i.postimg.cc/28GP0N3s/IMG-2211.jpg)
Here are the walls so far, about half done.
(https://i.postimg.cc/mgrKqpHt/IMG-2212.jpg)
Really looks different than it did:
(https://i.postimg.cc/GmS61PFz/IMG-2214.jpg)
Next step will be to lay out and cut all the 'windows' in each wall panel. Some were likely just to reduce weight and provide access on the original engine, others are mounting openings for the engine blocks and control valve. After that I can start in on all the inserts to be added to the walls...
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That's looking sharp, Chris! :popcorn: :popcorn:
Ton of work on each of those parts!
Kim
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Thanks Kim! Lotsa FUN work - you may have noticed I like working in brass, part machining, part whittling.
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Michael, another question for you:
I noticed in your pictures that the rear wall has its mounting bolt holes slotted so the wall can be slid forward and back - same on each of the engines you showed. Here is a picture with arrows to the places I mean:
(https://i.postimg.cc/rsRwSG1p/IMG-20220824-214018-1080-x-720-pixel-a.jpg)
Do you think this was just to make assembling the engine easier, making it possible to slide the rear wall in with the front wall already in place, or is there also a need to adjust the position of the rear wall slightly? I figure that since you probably had to assemble/disassemble yours during the restoration you would know!
Thanks again,
Chris
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Frames are looking great! Whatever windows you add to the frames - my only suggestion would be not to use Microsoft windows or stained glass windows... :Lol:
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Frames are looking great! Whatever windows you add to the frames - my only suggestion would be not to use Microsoft windows or stained glass windows... :Lol:
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Hmmmm, good point. Well, it's a steering engine for a ship, so I should call them portholes! :Lol:
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Hi Chris, the rear stand has umten long holes that are open at the front.
It facilitates assembly and aligning / positioning of the shafts. The top two struts are also aligned with brass plates.
Since the parts are all heavy and cause problems when assembling them, it was probably done that way. With your model you can now work precisely and move the parts with one hand.
Michael
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Great, thanks again!
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Got started on the porthole openings in the wall panels, starting with the rear panel which gets four large openings:
(https://i.postimg.cc/brfJ8CSj/IMG-2215.jpg)
Still need to go back and trim the angled sides of the openings.
(https://i.postimg.cc/d3R002GZ/IMG-2216.jpg)
Then set up for the front panel, which gets more smaller openings. The two outer lower ones will have the engine mounting blocks soldered into them, and the larger upper one gets the control valve bolted into it.
(https://i.postimg.cc/44pywgj4/IMG-2217.jpg)
While it was in the mill, also drilled the mounting holes for the control valve and the limiting cap for the upper shaft. Later on I'll come back and make the slots for the rudder indicator - want to wait till its made and cut them to fit closely.
(https://i.postimg.cc/bN8JB5jx/IMG-2218.jpg)
Before I could set up to trim those angled edges, the shop elves grabbed the panels and started figuring out the layout for their new clubhouse
(https://i.postimg.cc/28w6RxzP/IMG-2219.jpg)
I couldnt resist setting the panels on the engine bed for a look too
(https://i.postimg.cc/xC3rJtFQ/IMG-2220.jpg)
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There is a grease container on the front panel. These are the things we call Staufer sockets. When turning, grease is pushed towards the bearing.
The crankshaft bearings also have these grease bushes. I think they used to be brass. But I could only buy some made of sheet steel at flea markets. It was difficult to get four of a kind.
Michael
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Chris, it looks great when the three pieces are together.
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An artist at work, don’t you just Love it..?…. :Love:
:cheers:
Don
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Thanks guys! Great to have you following along.
Got started on the first three of the inserts/add-ons for the wall plates, the extensions/gussets for the gear shafts. There is one at each end of the lower shaft, one at the back end of the upper shaft. Started out by turning a length of bar stock long enough for all three plus room in the chuck to overall diameter, and turned the outer end down to the size of the cylinder that will stick out of the wall:
(https://i.postimg.cc/8cg9m5CL/IMG-2221.jpg)
Then moved the chuck over to the mill with the rotary table set up vertically and a tailstock to support the outer end. Then took cuts down each side of what will become the gussets. The 'X' marks the section between the gussets to be milled away.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sDrCpnBb/IMG-2222.jpg)
A closer view from the end partway through milling away the waste stock between the first two gussets - same depth, turning the rotary table 5 degrees between each pass. At this point the cutter is about to break through at the bottom of the waste wedge, so I cut through the chuck end first to let the wedge drop out.
(https://i.postimg.cc/0N3LrZRW/IMG-2224.jpg)
Farther along the process
(https://i.postimg.cc/TYJMQrg1/IMG-2227.jpg)
I took finishing passes down each side of each gusset to smooth them and get them to final thickness. Then moved back to the lathe, and turned that outer end down to the size of the hole in the wall plate:
(https://i.postimg.cc/cHnP3Yds/IMG-2228.jpg)
The first section was then sawn off (sticking out too far to trust the parting tool so used the hacksaw to rough cut the piece off). Here it is sitting in the top hole in the rear wall plate.
(https://i.postimg.cc/R0qkMy8J/IMG-2230.jpg)
Cleaned up the end of the remaining bar, drilled a new center hole, and did the same for the second insert
(https://i.postimg.cc/Z5YkQCxc/IMG-2229.jpg)
and the third one
(https://i.postimg.cc/cLDqG0DN/IMG-2231.jpg)
Here are the three inserets so far.
(https://i.postimg.cc/PJbc3jL9/IMG-2232.jpg)
Next step is to trim them to final length, and use the compound slide to angle in the gussets:
(https://i.postimg.cc/HWbfsQSz/IMG-2233.jpg)
One trimmed, two to go. After that I'll drill/bore out the centers of each one for the bronze bearings...
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So MUCH
Gold Brass reduced to Dust .... :o .... has the Elves started a Foundry in order to collect the Spoils yet :LittleDevil:
Great parts 'reviled under the rubble' or .... how did the saying go :noidea:
Per
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That's some pretty nifty fab work there, Chris! :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
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So MUCH Gold Brass reduced to Dust .... :o .... has the Elves started a Foundry in order to collect the Spoils yet :LittleDevil:
Great parts 'reviled under the rubble' or .... how did the saying go :noidea:
Per
I can hear them back in the shop now with the shovels and wheelbarrows, filling up their trailer...
I know the saying about ten pounds in a five pound bag, probably not the one you mean! :lolb:
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That's some pretty nifty fab work there, Chris! :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
Thanks Kim! Lots of ways I could have made those inserts, this one is working out well so far!
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Chris, just brilliant solution.
:cheers:
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If anyone ever needs an impeller for a small centrifugal pump, I know just the fella, right Chris? :Lol: :cheers:
The ribbed bosses look great! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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If anyone ever needs an impeller for a small centrifugal pump, I know just the fella, right Chris? :Lol: :cheers:
The ribbed bosses look great! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Pump impellers or elf-drink-mixers? :Jester:
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Got the last steps done on all three of the shaft inserts, drilling and boring out the centers to take the bronze bearings:
(https://i.postimg.cc/nr18VP8y/IMG-2234.jpg)
Here they are set in place on the wall panels - they will be soldered on at the same time as the other blocks still to be made.
(https://i.postimg.cc/zGvm57xQ/IMG-2235.jpg)
The next set of parts are the right-angle blocks at the bottom corners of the walls, to form the leg extensions used to stabilize the walls when they are bolted to the engine bed. The cutout piece from the engine bed was a good size to make these from. A notch was milled down the length of it to form the 'L' shape needed:
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZYPzLC9w/IMG-2236.jpg)
Then the excess from the bottom was sawn off, and the sides of the L milled down close to but a little thicker than the final thickness:
(https://i.postimg.cc/3JK5fYmY/IMG-2237.jpg)
Next is to mill in a notch on the inner surface for the overlap with the wall. Here it is set in place first, to give you a better idea where it will be.
(https://i.postimg.cc/rFQ6v3NW/IMG-2238.jpg)
The part that overlaps needs to be thinned down by the thickness of the flange on the wall. It will then be screwed in place to hold it for soldering.
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[/quote]
Pump impellers or elf-drink-mixers? :Jester:
[/quote]
I didn't want to mention that application in case they broke into the spirit locker again..... :Lol: :cheers:
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Pump impellers or elf-drink-mixers? :Jester:
I didn't want to mention that application in case they broke into the spirit locker again..... :Lol: :cheers:
I have to break in to it, they stole my key!
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After lunch got the ends of the L strips notched to fit over the corners of the walls
(https://i.postimg.cc/Kj5Hn38w/IMG-2240.jpg)
Test fit - had to file the wall corner to fit the arc left by the mill
(https://i.postimg.cc/fysPtfDY/IMG-2241.jpg)
Here is how they fit on the wall. After soldering, the upper/outside edge will be tapered back flush with the wall edge.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sfPqFq4m/IMG-2243.jpg)
I drilled/tapped each for a 2-56 brass screw, which will be filed off after soldering. One more piece to make before soldering, the bracket for the clutch handle on the side of the front wall.
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Correction, three more pieces, the bracket plus the two engine mounts/crosshead slides!
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The side bracket for the end of the clutch arm was whittled out of the scrap bit of brass left over from the L brackets:
(https://i.postimg.cc/1zbmTXZf/IMG-2245.jpg)
Here it is screwed to the side of the frame for soldering:
(https://i.postimg.cc/y8QYmnQh/IMG-2247.jpg)
Then made the crosshead guide/engine mounting blocks from some 303 stainless steel. Two blocks were milled to size, the step cut in, milled the back to leave a shallow lip to align it with the openings in the front wall plate, and hollowed out the back. The one in the background shows the step in the front/top, that end supports the back of the cylinder block. The face below the step will be the crosshead guide.
(https://i.postimg.cc/KY1cJLw6/IMG-2248.jpg)
The engine mounting holes were drilled in the top, and two rows of holes drilled in the front face for the crosshead guide rails. Between the holes are grooves, cut with the end of a center drill, that act as oil collection/drip locations.
(https://i.postimg.cc/90hWmk02/IMG-2249.jpg)
Here are the blocks set in place on the front wall to show where they go. Still need to tap the holes before soldering.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Qt58rDXS/IMG-2250.jpg)
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Great progress today - I got the inserts/blocks all silver soldered onto the two wall panels, looks like the solder flowed nicely through the joints, will be able to tell better after they get to swim in the pickle solution for a while and get wire brushed off.
While waiting for it to warm up enough to go outside and do the torch work (getting into near-freezing temps overnight here lately), I skipped forward slightly to make the chain sprockets. As mentioned, I was able to find a length of the .1475" pitch roller chain (Stock Drive Products has a decent selection of it), but thought that I would give a try to making the sprockets for the chain, having made larger ones for the Lombard model in the past. In looking at the pictures Michael sent me, I could see that on the original sprockets the teeth were simpler and lower than on a typical bike chain. For this engine, the speeds are low, and the chain is kept under tension and aligned with the sprockets, so I thought I would try the same style. McMaster-Carr also carries the mini chain, and the Fusion-360 CAD app I am using can connect to their website to directly download the CAD drawings for parts, quite handy! I downloaded several of the sprockets, different tooth counts, and generated a 2D drawing with the circle centers/sizes needed. Their sprockets were for normal long tapered-tooth patterns, so I just needed the inner arc layouts. Using that, I set up a piece of 303 stainless on the rotary table, and drilled the hole pattern around the outside. This is quite small chain, the rollers are just over .090" diameter, so the holes are small! First center drilled each location, since any wander would kill the chain feeding:
(https://i.postimg.cc/kMf0YQh1/IMG-2251.jpg)
Then drilled, going deep enough for four sprockets. I need three, one for the drive shaft, two more underneath to turn the chain outwards towards port and starboard:
(https://i.postimg.cc/xT8WwXw0/IMG-2252.jpg)
Then moved the chuck over to the lathe where the center was bored, and the rim turned down halfway into the rows of holes. The sprockets were then parted off, and needed a little deburring with a file. Here they are, with a test fit on the chain after a little cleanup filing on the first one, others still have the burs from parting off:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Gt76BRyw/IMG-2253.jpg)
It engages quite well! With the sprocket held in fingertips, I can pull the chain across and it feeds smoothly. :whoohoo: Now I need to hide the chain and sprockets so the shop elves dont try and make a teensy Harley with them (though that would be fun to see go). For scale, the sprockets are just under 3/4" OD.
The hub I made a while back for the large gear needs to be turned on one end to fit the sprocket, and a cap made to hold the sprocket in place and also form the drive teeth for the dog clutch.
Pics of the wall panels later after they are cleaned up...
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Chris,
Your metal sculpting is just amazing! :popcorn:
Eric
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Chris,
Your metal sculpting is just amazing! :popcorn:
Eric
Thanks Eric! :cheers:
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Chris, excellent work. I don't even know if the crosshead guide had these oil grooves? But it fits!
Michael
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I see it myself, there are oil grooves. Well observed!
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I see it myself, there are oil grooves. Well observed!
Well, if you don't know your own engine, I'll just have to take custody of it. I'll be waiting for a REALLY big box in the mail! :lolb: :Jester:
Its amazing how its still possible to find details in an engine after so many times looking at photos, always see some new detail.
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Yes I'm getting old and forgetful.
When the machine is complete you don't see the surface. It's only when you look at a picture without a crosshead that you can see it clearly.
I'm sorry I can't find a suitable box to send 😇.
Greetings Michael
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Thats okay, I would have spent the next two years picking up all the packing peanuts! :ROFL:
-
While waiting for the wall panels to finish swimming in the pickle solution (Sparex 2) I did some more on the sprocket holder and clutch. Here I am milling the first side of the clutch:
(https://i.postimg.cc/MKXrHhKx/IMG-2254.jpg)
Going to be doing that again - later on, after test fitting the parts, I realized that I made the clutch too thick, I need to trim the end back quite a bit. Here are the parts so far, before trimming them:
(https://i.postimg.cc/xdVss8GT/IMG-2255.jpg)
The brass piece on the left is the hub extension that I made when the large gear was made, it screws to the gear. The sprocket will be pressed between that and the clutch piece on the right, and the three soldered together.
Here is how they look put together - before trimming and soldering:
(https://i.postimg.cc/qv3bXy35/IMG-2258.jpg)
Then, a while later, the wall panels were done being cleaned up. Two sessions in the Sparex, with some wire brushing after each soak. The shop elves got them set up on the engine bed with the gears - they couldn't wait for me to trim off the temporary screw heads. All the joints had solder go all the way through, and showed on the opposite sides, so no re-soldering needed before trimming the corner pieces flush.
(https://i.postimg.cc/k5NTLCwN/IMG-2262.jpg) :cartwheel:
Also made up the bronze bearings so the lower shaft sites in the proper place, turned them up today too, simple round tubes with a flange on one end.
(https://i.postimg.cc/DZBByc98/IMG-2263.jpg)
With the bearings made, was able to verify that the two gears mesh well, very happy with that!
(https://i.postimg.cc/4NM29Bmc/IMG-2265.jpg)
Quite happy with the progress, its really shaping up quickly. Tomorrow I will get the temporary screws trimmed off and the edges of the corner pieces trimmed back. Where they go up the sides of the walls, they need to be tapered back flush as well. Then I can start laying out and drilling the mounting holes in the bottom of each wall, to match the holes already in the engine bed.
:cheers:
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The assembly looks great! Soldering in particular looks top notch. :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Wow! It's really starting to look like the steering engine! :popcorn:
Kim
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Hi Chris, it looks great.
If it weren't for the workshop elves standing next to it, I would think it would be the original machine.
In any case, the workshop elves only get to the steering wheel with a footstool 😁.
The bare brass also makes it look a bit like a clockwork church tower.
You're making good progress.
Michael
:cheers:
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Thanks guys! Michael, I'll have to make the elves a little bench to stand on!
Just got an email from one of the other modellers who was exhibiting at the Mystic Seaport engine show I went to this fall, he has started on a model of the Sabino engine from my plans, has the crankshaft done, look s great!
(https://i.postimg.cc/kgfnd2sw/Sabino-Crankshaft-Robin.jpg)
He is off to Florida for the winter, I'm looking forward to seeing more of his progress when he is back in the spring!
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Lotsa emails today - just heard from the editor, my Marion 91 steam shovel build will be starting in the January issue of Live Steam/Outdoor Railroading magazine! :whoohoo: :cartwheel: :wine1:
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As mentioned, I trimmed back the length of the clutch/sprocket assembly to the correct size which now leaves room for the second half of the clutch and its movements:
(https://i.postimg.cc/MppGHCsW/IMG-2266.jpg)
Then set up the wall panels to trim off the screws used for soldering, trim the added on blocks to be flush, and shape the tops of the corner brackets:
(https://i.postimg.cc/9f4FtG5K/IMG-2269.jpg)
The 1-2-3 blocks and clamps steady the panel, otherwise it would want to flex and chatter with the end mill. The corner blocks were marked for length and shape:
(https://i.postimg.cc/fb6WHJML/IMG-2270.jpg)
then trimmed off, along with the screw heads
(https://i.postimg.cc/C1kh9SK4/IMG-2271.jpg)
The ends of the screws on the inside will be trimmed off too, may need to use a rotary tool and bur to reach down to them. Holding the front panel with its extra blocks meant a little rearranging on the 1-2-3 blocks, but it all fit
(https://i.postimg.cc/VLR6YfWG/IMG-2272.jpg)
A couple shots of the panels as they are now:
(https://i.postimg.cc/HsHnDcX8/IMG-2273.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/pLcLFs7K/IMG-2275.jpg)
Next step is to drill the mounting holes in the bottom flanges...
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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It keeps getting better!!!
:cheers:
-
Ditto what Michael said! :cheers:
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I still have a photo of the sister machine. It has the construction number 175. You are building the construction number 174. The number 175 no longer has the original worm gear and also the newly cast cylinder. The machine is also privately owned in Dresden.
Michael
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Very interesting to see the slight differences in the machines over the years.
Got to ask, do you have plans for that oscillating engine shown in your video from the ship? I sort of hope you do, sort of hope you don't! :paranoia:
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Chris, I think I could ask in the German Dampf Modell forum. Models have already been built for it.
I just looked up steering machines on YouTube and actually discovered a paddle steamer that still use our steering machine today. The ship even sails not far from me in the north on the Elbe.
There is a video of it and at about 11:15 you can see it rattling.
-
Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgyg__HlDp0
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What a beautiful ship! Interesting how they had the steering engine one deck beliw with the chain drive from the upper pilothouse. This ship has a different engine than the other video, its also in great running order. I hope they can keep all of them operational! Thanks for the video link!
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Did some searching, saw this one that has a different arrangement but looks like the same operating principals:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2WPsLPsyXs
Looks like it is set up to be installed right at the rudder.
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The paddle steamer even drove past me a few years ago. But I didn't know that he also had such a steering machine.
Michael
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Got the holes/slots cut in the bottom of the wall panels to attach them to the engine bed, and made a set of studs for the bed plate. The slots that Michael showed for the rear wall works quite well, and I added the slots to the front panel as well when I realized how hard it would be to reach in and start the nuts for the front wall!
(https://i.postimg.cc/RhDNB9tp/IMG-2278.jpg)
Also done was to solder up the pieces of the chain/dog clutch, that assembly is in soaking in vinegar to clean off the flux.
Next step.... hmm, well, could go in several directions. Make the rest of the clutch, as well as the lower shaft which needs some keyways. Or make the upper crossbars. Or the upper shaft assembly. Or the crankshaft and main bearings... Going to take some sitting, admiring the model so far, and pondering. Good place to break for lunch with some friends!
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Looking great Chris! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Looking great Chris! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Thanks Jeff, its great to have it start looking the part!
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Chris, brilliant work.👍
I just ordered this book on Amazon. Because it interests me myself.
Michael
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Chris, brilliant work.👍
I just ordered this book on Amazon. Because it interests me myself.
Michael
Perfect - looks like a great book. A model of that engine would be a great companion piece to the steering engine (model and real one!)
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I have decided to do the rest of the work on the lower shaft next, keyways for the worm wheel and the clutch slider, then make the slider and the amrs that move it forward and back.
This afternoon is a cold rainy one, perfect to spend time in the shop. First milled in the slots for the two keys on the lower shaft, one at the end for the worm gear, one farther in for the clutch slider.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Y2VhS6jv/IMG-2279.jpg)
Here is where the inner one sits for the clutch slider. The ends of the keys were rounded off on the sander to match the arcs left by the end mill.
(https://i.postimg.cc/LsHsWvQb/IMG-2280.jpg)
The outer end of the clutch piece attached to the gear was relieved on the inner diameter to fit over the tip of this key.
(https://i.postimg.cc/cCKCmHk1/IMG-2284.jpg)
The key for the worm wheel was milled down along its length to be just over the size of the gap, then filed to a slight taper to make it capture against the wheel. A short length at the end was left full height to act as a stop.
(https://i.postimg.cc/d3z1SYg2/IMG-2282.jpg)
The sliding half of the clutch was turned up, then the jaws milled in the same way as was done on the first half attached to the gear.
(https://i.postimg.cc/2Sd6TgGW/IMG-2285.jpg)
A few fine cuts got it to be a nice fit, needs to slide on/off easily.
(https://i.postimg.cc/MKQXfnjd/IMG-2286.jpg)
The other end of the sliding piece was turned down to form the slot that the control rod will slide in. Here it is test fit on the shaft:
(https://i.postimg.cc/3xQNX3X7/IMG-2287.jpg)
And slid into place against the other half. When in this position, the sliding half drives the large gear, since the sliding half is kept from rotating on the shaft by the key. To assemble everything, the rear wall will have to be removed to let there be room to slip in the key under the slider.
(https://i.postimg.cc/cJXJGYV4/IMG-2288.jpg)
That bracket visible in the background, sticking out from the wall, is used to pin the clutch handle in position and keep it from moving. There will be a post between that bracket and the shaft which will hold the pivot for the handle. That was all shown in one of Michaels videos.
:cheers:
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Chris, sorry I can't help you there. I couldn't find any information in the old books from the time. All connections are cylindrical and have a lug wedge.
Michael
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Chris, sorry I can't help you there. I couldn't find any information in the old books from the time. All connections are cylindrical and have a lug wedge.
Michael
No problem! I worked out the key and its taper, shown in the post I just put up. Don't know the angle I used, very slight angle filed onto the key to wedge it in.
:cheers:
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Hi Chris, yesterday I sent some pictures of your steering gear to one of the paddle steamer engineers in Dresden. They are very pleased that someone from the USA is building a model of their steering machine. They admire your work very much.
Another question.
Would you mind sending me the blueprint again? But in metric?
Only if the work can be done with a mouse click.
Michael
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Easily done in Fusion, just had to click on mm checkbox and save the new pdf files.
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Getting started on the control arm for the clutch - bent up the shape from some thin tool steel bar stock, easier to bend it all the way around and trim off part of it later than to deal with two pieces to solder together. Drilled/tapped for two brass screws for the pivot points, the heads will be trimmed off later.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Nj8VNvnR/IMG-2293.jpg)
Turned up a handle for the end, and milled a little square stub on the end of the bar for it to fit onto
(https://i.postimg.cc/NfHZHH7J/IMG-2294.jpg)
Got the handle soldered on and the end of the circle trimmed off. Its in soaking in some vinegar to clean it up, then I'll take it to the belt sander for final shaping...
(https://i.postimg.cc/L8FwB8xH/IMG-2296.jpg)
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After lunch finished up the clutch control arm, here it is after soaking in vinegar and sanding off the cut ends:
(https://i.postimg.cc/g0m71cLG/IMG-2297.jpg)
The post that holds it started as a bit of 3/16" square steel bar, with the end milled with a 1/16" cutter to make the slot.
(https://i.postimg.cc/rpNBpR2d/IMG-2298.jpg)
Went over to the lathe to turn the shank of the post - first time I used the 4-jaw scroll chuck that came as part of the lathe/mill package I picked up (slightly, very slightly) used last year. Never thought I'd have a use for the little scroll chuck, but for square stock its much quicker than the independant one:
(https://i.postimg.cc/MKfgQF8J/IMG-2299.jpg)
Trimmed the end and threaded it 2-56 to screw into the wall flange. Here it is ready for a trial fit on the engine:
(https://i.postimg.cc/T3rSk5wk/IMG-2302.jpg)
After the first test it was clear that the post was too long, so trimmed it back and got a better fit. Here it is with the cluth disengaged:
(https://i.postimg.cc/KcHd4yw5/IMG-2303.jpg)
and engaged
(https://i.postimg.cc/Z5k2FxTB/IMG-2304.jpg)
All it needs is a pin in the bracket to hold it in position, and the clutch is done. :cartwheel:
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Great 👍
and the pin hangs on a little chain so it doesn't get lost.
-
here you see it
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Ah - and that shows a slight bend in the arm at the pivot point, that would help the position of the end of the arm, I'll do the same on the model.
:cheers: :cheers:
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Aside from not being painted, got a pretty close match now!
(https://i.postimg.cc/fLxpP3BW/IMG-2305.jpg)
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Oh THAT's where the pivot hole is, in the forked clutch operating lever. Couldn't see the hole in previous pics in post 279. I say forked, but in fact it looks great and perfectly serviceable.... :Lol:
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Oh THAT's where the pivot hole is, in the forked clutch operating lever. Couldn't see the hole in previous pics in post 279. I say forked, but in fact it looks great and perfectly serviceable.... :Lol:
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
It didn't show in that picture since I hadn't drilled it yet! Sorry if I forked it up! ::) :Jester:
Right now I am going through the options and thread sizes to figure out the upper shaft, which has several different threaded portions on it, one for the control nut (I am the nut in control, this is the one that moves the valve), one for the rudder position indicator, and one for the end stops. :insane:
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No comment on the "control nut" statement! :Lol: good luck with thread selection! :cheers:
Years ago I was in a shop on a crew tightening cylinder head nuts on a large diesel engine. One guy on the crew, Martin, was a real smart aleck. Foreman Jim comes by and sees a box of nuts on the catwalk, and says "aren't these the head nuts?" Martin says "we all thought you was the head nut around here Jim!" everybody got a chuckle on that one. Just a silly memory now. That was a fun crew. And yes, the engine DID run after we messed with it!
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No comment on the "control nut" statement! :Lol: good luck with thread selection! :cheers:
Years ago I was in a shop on a crew tightening cylinder head nuts on a large diesel engine. One guy on the crew, Martin, was a real smart aleck. Foreman Jim comes by and sees a box of nuts on the catwalk, and says "aren't these the head nuts?" Martin says "we all thought you was the head nut around here Jim!" everybody got a chuckle on that one. Just a silly memory now. That was a fun crew. And yes, the engine DID run after we messed with it!
If you worked on airplane engines you would have needed Wing Nuts!
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:lolb:
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Last picture:
were you or the elves here secretly coming to my house at night and scraping off the paint and taking a picture?
I haven't been to the garage today....
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Last picture:
were you or the elves here secretly coming to my house at night and scraping off the paint and taking a picture?
I haven't been to the garage today....
I did send the elves there to box up the engine and send it home, but they got lazy and just brought me the paint! :facepalm:
:Jester:
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Got a hole drilled in the end of the pin - very tiny hole so I used a micro dental bur in the high speed air handpiece to nibble the hole through the end. Then a short piece of chain was wired on so the pin doesn't get lost. The pin end is .070" diameter.
(https://i.postimg.cc/43yQnwyH/IMG-2306.jpg)
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Thanks Jeff!
After deciding on the thread sizes to use, it was time to make the upper shaft. I originally was going to use a 3/8" acme thread, but that wound up just too large for the control nut and the gear shaft, so I went back to a 1/4" Acme threaded rod instead, which will fit inside the half-lap on the control nut better. Either way, I would likely have to adjust the lenghts of the arms on the crank leading to the valve to get the proper travel.
So, here is one end of the upper shaft. I made the whole thing in one piece from a length of the 1/4" Acme rod. This is the end towards the cylinders. It has the Acme thread in the center to move the control nut, and a M4 thread at the very end for the stop nut on that sits in front of the front wall. I still need to add another threaded section at the front end of the Acme thread, for the rudder position indicator. That will be made on a seperate piece, drilled to match the shaft, and added on to the shaft. That will make it possible to slide it all into the bearing for the front wall.
(https://i.postimg.cc/MH9Gc0vX/IMG-2307.jpg)
The other end was turned down to a straight smooth section, just under the root diameter of the Acme thread. That end goes through the small spur gear, and holds the smaller of the steering wheels at the other end. I milled off one side of the spur gear hub at the front end to form the half lap to engage the control nut. Lots of moving parts in this area, this is where a lot of the magic of this engine happens!
(https://i.postimg.cc/m2rDvn59/IMG-2308.jpg)
Oh, and almost forgot to add a picture of the Acme nut that will become the core of the control nut. The outside will be turned down to take a cylinder with another half lap in it, more on that next time.
(https://i.postimg.cc/PfyJFH2h/IMG-2309.jpg)
Chris
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Forgot to mention - the small spur gear is going in the tank for nickel plating, pics of that done this afternoon...
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The small spur gear was nickel plated, and the Acme nut was turned down round. Then turned the control nut, with the end at the groove counterbored out larger to fit the turned down nut:
(https://i.postimg.cc/VLrXn5W5/IMG-2310.jpg)
A little Loctite retaining compound later, and the control nut shell has its internal Acme thread. The other end was milled off to form a matching half-lap to the one on the gear hub:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Dw1spDDT/IMG-2312.jpg)
And here it is test fit on the engine:
(https://i.postimg.cc/TYzg9Gt0/IMG-2315.jpg)
So, now if the inner shaft is turned the control nut is kept from spinning by the gear half, and it moves one direction. If the gear turns the other way but the inner shaft stays still, the control nut is turned by the half lap on the gear, and the nut comes back to where it was. That is the key thing about how the mechanism works. The inner shaft is turned by the steering wheel, moving the nut, which opens the valve one way or the other. That makes the engine run to turn the gear the other way, bringing the nut back to center which shuts the valve, stopping the engine. Along the way, the turning of the engine spins the lower shaft with the chain sprocket, which moves the rudder chains, turning the ship. Brilliantly elegant design! Someone with a great mechanical mind thought it up originally.
Now, to keep the inner shaft from sliding forward and back, I need to make a little spacer washer to go between the small gear and the rear wall bearing, plus a stop collar for the other end of the gear shank to keep the small gear from being able to slide. Then, I need to make the threaded collar that goes around the inner shaft just forward of the Acme thread for the rudder indicator. That will be large enough to act as a stop collar for the inner shaft. All coming together well, very happy with the results so far. Time to sit and stare contentedly at the model while sharing cookies with the shop elves!
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Beautiful, Chris! :popcorn: :popcorn:
Not only is that a very clever mechanism, it is also a very clever way of implementing it in miniature using the Acme threaded rod and nut!
Really enjoying your build, Chris!
Kim
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Hello Chris,
very good way.
I took a few more pictures with details. The carrier has 2 cams, but of course it also works the way you do it. It's easier that way too.
In your drawing, the bracket for the linkage is drawn like the lever for the hand lever. In the original, a bronze ring that is divided and screwed slides in the groove.
Michael
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Great detail pictures Michael!
I never noticed that there were two lobes, a bit late for the model but I can update the CAD version and the plans. I really like the follower ring for the valve and will build it that way. Hmm, since the crank arm swings, there must be some play in the ring up and down? The front and back sides of the ring are close fit, but the center of the ring must be elongated in the center?
:cheers:
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That was a pretty quick couple changes in the CAD model - added the follower ring with an elongated center:
(https://i.postimg.cc/FsY3Q1fN/New-Control-Links.jpg)
I noticed in the photo that the split between the top and bottom half of the ring was below the center of the follower, didn't realize till I drew it in CAD why that has to be - that lets the posts on the side of the top ring be full cylinders, if the split was higher the posts would have to be split too. :wallbang:
So, quick fix to the drawing, and also updated the plan sheets. I've attached a new copy of the inch and metric version of the sheet for these parts. Perfect timing Michael, since I had not started these parts, and the parts that are made don't have to change at all.
:cheers:
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are you fast
I wanted to disassemble it tomorrow to see it better.
But you nailed it perfectly.
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are you fast
I wanted to disassemble it tomorrow to see it better.
But you nailed it perfectly.
Great! Those pictures showed it well. :cheers: :cheers:
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Beautiful, Chris! :popcorn: :popcorn:
Not only is that a very clever mechanism, it is also a very clever way of implementing it in miniature using the Acme threaded rod and nut!
Really enjoying your build, Chris!
I was thinking about a proper comment when I read your Post about how you made those parts - just to see Kim had beat me to it ;D
Per
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Oh, thanks again for the metric version of the blueprints. And if something is unclear, I'll take more photos.
Michael
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Noticed that I did not include the updated version of the gear shafts drawings with the two lobes vs one lobe on the control nut. Here they are. Very minor change on the drawing, dimensions are all the same.
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The blueprint book arrived today.
In terms of design, it is a typical steam engine for paddle steamers.
But it is greatly simplified in its construction. Change of direction with Slip Excenter.
Definitely workable.
Michael
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A good find! Are you going to build one? :happyreader:
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A few more pieces made. The last part of the upper shaft is the threaded portion inside the front wall for the rudder indicator. Thet was made by threading a piece of stainless, and drilling the center out to match the shaft:
(https://i.postimg.cc/9fDKTnh5/IMG-2316.jpg)
Also made the front bearing - here the pieces are all together:
(https://i.postimg.cc/nz7WS9r3/IMG-2318.jpg)
Next pieces are the cross bars that go either side of the upper shaft, holding the walls in position as well as supporting the crank arms for the valve control. They were turned out of some stainless roundbar, each end threaded 4-40, and a larger sphere left near the center which will be the support base for the crank arm posts.
(https://i.postimg.cc/s2b8J4jB/IMG-2325.jpg)
Here they are test fit on the walls. Length is good, so next steps will be to drill the holes for the support posts through the spheres, and flatten the spheres around the holes...
(https://i.postimg.cc/wMpGCxsg/IMG-2326.jpg)
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Oh it just keeps getting better!
I'll put the book in the closet and wait until I retire.
The original blueprints are said to be in the state archive and it's not that easy to get to.
Michael
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Hi Michael,
I'm starting in on the follower ring and the crank arms for the valve control nut. Looking at the pictures, I think that the two arms that hang from the upper crossbar are fixed to the crossbar, and the crossbar rotates in the uprights at either end, is that correct? I've highlighted the parts in blue in this picture - are they all fixed together, and the crossbar rotates in the upright pillars?
Thanks!Chris
(https://i.postimg.cc/kMKSq04V/Crank-Arm-Question.jpg)
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Yesterday saw the bars between the front and back walls finished up. The sphere in the middle of the bars were drilled
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZKmdRwBw/IMG-2328.jpg)
and milled flat on top/bottom
(https://i.postimg.cc/MKYjj11q/IMG-2329.jpg)
then the upright pillars turned. They have a 2-56 threaded hole in the bottom for the screw through the crossbar.
(https://i.postimg.cc/vZHx7Dv9/IMG-2330.jpg)
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Hi Chris,
you recognized that correctly.
The wave turns in the eyes. Above is a hole for oil and the levers are fixed with a keyway.
Michael
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It just occurred to me that you could drill a taper pin through the lever instead of a wedge.
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Excellent, thanks Michael!
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Time for the follower on the control nut. This looks a lot like a eccentric follower on a crankshaft, but the hole needs to be elongated to let the follower slide as the crank arm turns, and instead of an arm up to the valve there are pins on the sides to connect to the crank arms. Started out with a disc of bronze, flattened both sides on the mill then chucked up in the lathe to turn the pins:
(https://i.postimg.cc/CKwwZMW2/IMG-2332.jpg)
Back to the mill to cut in the shoulders where the screws will go through the top/bottom halves,
(https://i.postimg.cc/NMztP65h/IMG-2333.jpg)
and drilled the screw holes. Clearance size down to where the cut between the halves will be, tap size the rest of the way. These holes were drilled/tapped for 1-72 threads.
(https://i.postimg.cc/CdygwwGm/IMG-2334.jpg)
Back onto the lathe, to bore the center hole. This was done in two operations, with the part shifted in the 4-jaw for the second bore, to make the two overlapping bores to form the elongated hole.
(https://i.postimg.cc/y8mVY3r9/IMG-2335.jpg)
That shift left a peak in the sides where the circles overlap, so that was flattened out tangent to the two arcs on the mill
(https://i.postimg.cc/B66sgYZc/IMG-2336.jpg)
Last bit of forming was to round over the ends, using the old trick of positioning the part in the mill vise with a rod through the hole, and making a series of cuts with the part turned slightly for each cut. That leaves a series of small flats along the arc concentric with the center hole. Only takes a few cuts either side of center to make a convincing arc. Here it is with the arc cut on the left, in progress on the right side.
(https://i.postimg.cc/cCtWqvnv/IMG-2337.jpg)
Here is the finished part ready to cut the top/bottom halves apart. Well, almost halves, the cut needs to be made below the pins.
(https://i.postimg.cc/43wspkGx/IMG-2338.jpg)
Then a fine jewelers saw was used to split the two halves. Here is the finished part screwed back together and test fit on the model. I had to do a little cleaning up on the groove in the control nut, but is a good fit.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ryDRygGr/IMG-2340.jpg)
Next will be the crank arms that the follower hangs from, connecting it to the upper crossbar. The end of the crank that will stick out will have links down to the control valve that will mount on the front wall. Thanks again to Michael for those extra details on this part of the engine!
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Great progress, Chris! :popcorn:
It's really shaping up. Lots of little complexities on this guy!
Kim
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Great progress, Chris! :popcorn:
It's really shaping up. Lots of little complexities on this guy!
Kim
Sure are. Still need to make the indicator follower, gears, and needle, end stop mechanism, control valve and links, two steering wheels, and THEN can actually start on the engine itself!
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Chris, very good.
Now you are one step further. I like the "eccentric" ring.
And there are still so many exciting parts to come.
Michael
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The arms for connecting the follower ring to the upper crossbar are made - started with a piece of flat stock, drilled the pivot holes, and cut it out with a small end mill.
(https://i.postimg.cc/26KCcVwK/IMG-2341.jpg)
A little cleanup with the belt sander, and filed some relief next to the holes so it would not catch the side of the follower ring, here is a test fit on the model:
(https://i.postimg.cc/nr9p6pSc/IMG-2342.jpg)
All appears to move smoothly, the next step will be to make the drop links that go from the end of the crank down to the valve rod. After that, um, er, have to look at the plans and decide! Probably start in on the end stop and/or the rudder indicator linkage... For now, the temperature is getting very comfortable outside, time to head out and enjoy a sunny fall day!
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Got to work on the rudder indicator mechanism today. There is a threaded block that rides on the threaded section just inside the front wall, that block moves forward and back as the steering wheel is moved. Attached to the block is a gear rack which then turns the indicator needle up top. So, lots of little bitty pieces! I started with the block, which I made in one piece with the gear rack holder:
(https://i.postimg.cc/9z5Dgjq3/IMG-2344.jpg)
The two screws on the section going to the right towards the front wall will hold the gear rack. The two screws on the top above the shaft will hold a rod that keeps the block from spinning.
The gear rack was cut with a M0.6 cutter onto the side of a strip of brass:
(https://i.postimg.cc/8PM4pp46/IMG-2347.jpg)
A pair of holes to match the ones in the block were drilled and elongated to give some adjustment to the mesh of the gears. Here it all is test fit on the upper shaft:
(https://i.postimg.cc/wjzV3C4b/IMG-2349.jpg)
Still need to make the rod that keeps it from spinning as the shaft turns.
Next made the pinion gear (photo taken while cutting the gear teeth came out too blurry to use, sorry). The center hole is tapped 4-40, and the outside turned down and milled to just leave one side of the gear teeth:
(https://i.postimg.cc/DfW5Ndb5/IMG-2350.jpg)
Here it is after parting off:
(https://i.postimg.cc/66Dzx2rK/IMG-2352.jpg)
Still a number of parts to make for this subassembly - the indicator dial and needle, the pivot post to hold the spur gear onto the needle shaft, and also need to cut slots in the front wall for it all to fit into...
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Hello Chris, great pictures again!
Here are pictures of the big machine for comparison.
At that time I didn't have such a nice gear cutter and I made a shank cutter myself. Luckily I didn't have to mill all the way around. The threaded rod is guided with a groove in the frame. I didn't scale the table for the pointer. I think there were lines there. Maybe also letters for O , port and starboard. You still have artistic freedom 🙂
Michael
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Thanks Michael!
I used the length of the threaded sections to estimate the total travel, and used that to pick the number of teeth on the spur gear (14), so that it gives me about 35 degrees of travel each side on the indicator. When it comes time to make the wheel for the chain to go around back at the rudder post, I'll size that to give about 40 degrees either side. My engraving skills are pretty crude in metal, but the rotary table should make it easy to scribe an arc and lines in the top plate.
:cheers:
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Great looking mechanism Chris! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Hello Chris,
I just looked at your drawing of the flat slider again.
You drew him rectangular.
but it is a trapezoidal shape.
I think it was done that way because it's a full pressure steam engine.
Like almost all high-speed working steam engines. This is perhaps due to a softer start.
You would have to see in practice whether it is necessary on the model.
Greetings Michael
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Hello Chris,
I just looked at your drawing of the flat slider again.
You drew him rectangular.
but it is a trapezoidal shape.
I think it was done that way because it's a full pressure steam engine.
Like almost all high-speed working steam engines. This is perhaps due to a softer start.
You would have to see in practice whether it is necessary on the model.
Greetings Michael
Ah, yes, I remember you mentioning that before, I forgot to angle the edges on the valve slider, will have to change that. I remember seeing it in your photos too. Thanks!
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For everyone else, here is what Michael and I are referring to. This is a picture of the flat D valve inside the control valve in the steering engine. This valve is moved by the linkage on the upper shaft that I have been working on this past week, it directs steam into either the center or the ends of the spool valves in the cylinders themselves, so it controls both the direction and the speed of the engine. This picture was taken very close to straight above the valve, as proven by the red rectangle I drew over the center recess.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZnRXfZ7w/Slide-Valve-Angles.jpg)
The outer red rectangle shows the angles on the edges of the slide valve, highlighted by the green lines along their edges. In the photo editor I measured the angles between the green and red lines, and the average between the two is 5 degrees. What this does when the slider is moved past the edge of the steam ports on the valve face is to make a small wedge shaped opening at first, then a larger opening as the slider moves farther. This valve is the control valve for the engine, not the valve in each cylinder, so with a small movement on the steering wheel, this valve could be moved to just open the port to steam a little ways - this would result in the engine running slowly, recentering the valve and turning off the steam. With a larger movement on the steering wheel, the port would be opened farther, letting in more steam and running the engine faster to catch up to the steering wheel. When getting close to center, it would also slow down the engine as the port is closed, so the engine would have less likelyhood of running past center and have to back up again, hunting for center.
An interesting detail - for the model, it may take some experimenting to find a good angle - my guess is that a larger angle would be better at small scale, but that will take a couple tries to be sure. On the Mann Steam Truck I built, they did something a little like this - the slider on the throttle valve itself was square, but the port was angled into a V shape so the increase in area opened on the port was more gradual, that worked quite well, a lot like a needle valve does.
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Updated drawing for the valve....
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Dog your work is superb, did you ever think about applying to the Martin model museum? After all you do use a sherline lathe and mill…
:cheers:
Don
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Dog your work is superb, did you ever think about applying to the Martin model museum? After all you do use a sherline lathe and mill…
:cheers:
Don
Hi Don,
I am in their list of craftsmen already. Don't have anything on display out there at their museum, though the way I am running out of room here at the house I may need to send them some!
Here is a link to their page on me:https://craftsmanshipmuseum.com/artisan/chris-rueby/
Chris
:cheers: :cheers:
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Awesome…….. :Love:
Thanks for the link
Don
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Hello Chris,
you explained everything very well. Better than it ever could have been.
It's also better if someone native English speaker does it. I always don't know if everything comes across intelligibly when I write here.
The translator sometimes does not get along with technical words.
I would say the sloping control edge shouldn't be too sloping. Compressed air in particular comes in large quantities through the smallest holes.
Michael
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Hello Chris,
you explained everything very well. Better than it ever could have been.
It's also better if someone native English speaker does it. I always don't know if everything comes across intelligibly when I write here.
The translator sometimes does not get along with technical words.
I would say the sloping control edge shouldn't be too sloping. Compressed air in particular comes in large quantities through the smallest holes.
Michael
No problems here understanding the translations, and your pictures are great.
It will be interesting to try a couple different angles on the sloped end of the valve, and see how it behaves. Its going to be a while before the cylinders are made, but even putting air through the valve with no engines should be interesting, will be able to hear the volume change as the wheel is turned back and forth.
I have been thinking ahead to the steering wheels - they were made of all metal sometimes, other times a mix of wood and brass or steel. I am thinking that it will work out well to make the hub brass, spokes steel, and the outer rims from wood. The rims will be pieced up from shorter segments with overlapping joints like the real ones (I have a small ships wheel in my collection that will be good for reference). After the indicator linkage is done I think I'll make the wheels, that will be a fun change!
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By the way, you have an impressive portfolio.
My steering wheel is not the original. It's self built. With handles from the file from the hardware store. The real steering wheel is built exactly like the large hand wheel. Made of wood, brass and steel.
You will enjoy the construction.
Michael :cheers:
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Next step on the rudder indicator subassembly was to get the spur gear installed. The pivot hole was drilled through from the top
(https://i.postimg.cc/YS3LWX8z/IMG-2353.jpg)
and part of the rib milled out, plus the slot in the front wall
(https://i.postimg.cc/NFyKZQtd/IMG-2354.jpg)
Here the gear is test fit, and also drilled/tapped for the mounting screws for the indicator dial
(https://i.postimg.cc/TwNykpzy/IMG-2356.jpg)
Test fit it all back on the engine. The pieces all move okay, still need to make the post to keep the moving block aligned. At first I thought something was crooked since it was binding up, but it was just that the screw threads on the moving block wanted a drop of oil and it freed right up.
(https://i.postimg.cc/yd8gXFb4/IMG-2357.jpg)
So, last pieces for this assembly will be the vertical post and the dial plate/pointer. Then I think it will be time to make the steering wheels to make it easier to turn the upper shaft for testing. I've thought about doing some painting on the wall panels and engine bed, but still too many disassembly/reassembly cycles to go with the cylinders/valve coming up.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Looking good, Chris! :popcorn: :popcorn:
This engine has quite the mix of really big detailed parts and little fiddly detailed parts, doesn't it? ;)
Kim
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Looking good, Chris! :popcorn: :popcorn:
This engine has quite the mix of really big detailed parts and little fiddly detailed parts, doesn't it? ;)
Kim
And most of the fiddly ones are behind and between the big parts!
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Looking good, Chris! :popcorn: :popcorn:
This engine has quite the mix of really big detailed parts and little fiddly detailed parts, doesn't it? ;)
Kim
And most of the fiddly ones are behind and between the big parts!
What fun! :LittleDevil:
Kim
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Hello Chris,
I found a few more pictures. (maybe already shown)
I had to improve the area of the sliding valve with a new plate. Here it is important that everything is tight.
Maybe it helps you.
Greetings from today's 25 degrees Celsius warm Magdeburg in October 😮
Michael
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Hi Michael, I think some of those are new to me. How did you attach the new valve plate in place?
:cheers:
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Since I don't think the machine will ever run with steam again, I glued the plate in place with very good epoxy resin glue. The new panel cannot be moved laterally in any direction. The glue just has to keep the channels tight.
And I even think that the glue can withstand steam.
Michael
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Since I don't think the machine will ever run with steam again, I glued the plate in place with very good epoxy resin glue. The new panel cannot be moved laterally in any direction. The glue just has to keep the channels tight.
And I even think that the glue can withstand steam.
Michael
I may do something like that on the model - I can mill out the valve plate down inside the body of the valve, but lapping it nice and smooth/flat would be very difficult. An inserted plate would solve that problem, maybe I'll rough up the back and use some JB Weld epoxy to hold it in.
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The guide post for the rudder indicator is next. It bolts to the top of the threaded block, and the top of it will ride in a slot in the bottom of the dial plate, and keep the block from turning as the upper shaft spins. Started with a short bit of flat bar, and turned the post into the end. Focus was a little off, but you get the idea:
(https://i.postimg.cc/3Rhd1WKh/IMG-2363.jpg)
Parted it off and turned the bottom flat before drilling the bolt holes:
(https://i.postimg.cc/GmB8hZMW/IMG-2364.jpg)
Here it is bolted to the block, ready for the dial plate:
(https://i.postimg.cc/tgWsFFGD/IMG-2366.jpg)
Which brings us, not surprisingly, to the dial plate! picked a piece of stress relieved brass flat bar, and marked out the shapes:
(https://i.postimg.cc/dVz774pL/IMG-2367.jpg)
Some hole drilling and milling with one of the mini end mills comes next...
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After lunch I started in on shaping the indicator dial that sits on top of the engine. First was to drill some holes and mill the slot that the post from the moving block rides in.
(https://i.postimg.cc/x1JDNGNZ/IMG-2370.jpg)
With the part cut off from the bar, it was held in the 4-jaw on the rotary table for the bulk of the shaping. A combination of the 1/8" end mill and a mini one (1/16") was used to get into the openings and around the arcs. Then the field around the slot was taken down to thin the plate.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Qd2LQBpd/IMG-2371.jpg)
Then turned it over and clamped it in the mill vise to take the top surface down to thin the part the rest of the way.
(https://i.postimg.cc/PqYg2t4z/IMG-2372.jpg)
Some filing to remove toolmarks, and a test fit on the engine. The slot for the post really helps smooth out the motion and keep the block from tipping.
(https://i.postimg.cc/764pRptv/IMG-2374.jpg)
A lower angle view to better show the slot in the bottom of the plate, and the post from the block that it guides:
(https://i.postimg.cc/j5hGYZBD/IMG-2375.jpg)
Last bit for that assembly to make is the indicator needle itself. I'll whittle that out of some small bar next time, then get started on the steering wheels.
:cheers:
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Very good 👍
do you need a picture of the pointer?
Michael
:cheers:
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Very good 👍
do you need a picture of the pointer?
Michael
:cheers:
It shows in ones you have already sent, so I'm all set.
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The pointer is connected to the shaft with a small pin.
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Before I make the indicator pointer, I decided to do the outer rim for the larger of the two steering wheels (used for manual steering without the engine, the smaller wheel is used with the engine engaged). Now, this involves the use of a material some of you may not be too familiar with, its a free range mined material called 'wood'. It comes from those big things outside that drop leaves in your yard and gutters every fall, you may have noticed them out the window now and then... :Jester:
Some of this work started a few days ago, to give time for the 'solder', also known as 'wood glue' to cool, or 'set up'. This part is about 6" diameter, so it required digging out one of the plates I used a couple times for turning cast flywheels. It bolts to the lathe faceplate. This type of wheel is usually made up of three layers of wood, with the joints staggered for maximum strength. If the spokes are also wood, then the ends of the middle layer would have a mortise and tenon joint to the sides of the spokes. The outer two layers surround the spokes and are usually pinned through with dowels, or countersunk screws covered with plugs.
For this wheel, the spokes will be steel, and the inner hub brass. First step was to saw out a pile of thin strips wide enough for each segment, with a little extra width to allow for trueing the circle after glueing. On the rim of the faceplate, a block was clamped in place to act as a guide for clamping the wood blocks to mill the end to a 60 degree angle.
(https://i.postimg.cc/V6LRZCb8/IMG-2358.jpg)
After one end was done on all the pieces, another block was clamped to be a stop to position the blocks to mill the matching angle on the other end, and have all the blocks come out the same length.
With all the blocks cut to length and still extra wide, they were laid out on a flat surface, and a couple drops of superglue dripped into the seams. That held them enough for the next steps.
(https://i.postimg.cc/4dL1Dxzh/IMG-2360.jpg)
Next, a first outer layer was added with some dark colored wood glue (the dark color glue is handy since it does not show when dry, like a white or yellow glue does against the darker Mahogany). Glue was applied to the back of each piece as well as the ends.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Y2P38jr5/IMG-2362.jpg)
When that set up, it was flipped over and the second outer layer glued to the other side of the first one. This sandwiched the original layer like a three-layer plywood. The joints of the two outer layers are aligned in the middle of the strips in the first layer.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sxMJsCcH/IMG-2369.jpg)
That was left to set up for a couple days, and this morning I started the milling operations. The blank was first carefully aligned to the faceplate, took some spinning of the faceplate on the rotary table to get it centered well, used the tip of the end mill as a reference point. Once it was aligned, a set of clamps around the edge held it in place so I could mill the inner diameter. That was done with some lighter cuts to avoid splinters or chips being kicked out of the surface.
(https://i.postimg.cc/8cxmCXXp/IMG-2377.jpg)
Then the outer diameter was milled in too - that required moving the clamps between each section.
(https://i.postimg.cc/52BSx3BJ/IMG-2378.jpg)
Before doing that I should have glued in the guide blocks I added later, to allow me to flip the part over and get it realigned easily. Turns out it didn't matter, I didn't need to flip it over till later anyway, but it would have been a good insurance against slippage. After the rim was taken to size on both inside and outside, it was set up on the vertical rotary table to drill the spoke holes around the rim.
(https://i.postimg.cc/TYWcsGhp/IMG-2380.jpg)
Then laid back down to finish the shaping on the rim. The ships wheels typically have the center layer larger than the two outer layers, so I used a small ball end mill to recess the edge of the inside of one side
(https://i.postimg.cc/DwkckDb5/IMG-2381.jpg)
then the outside of the rim. As before, working on the outside reuired moving the clamps to work my way around.
(https://i.postimg.cc/MGzbXQ5Q/IMG-2382.jpg)
Then the part was flipped over, and the same cuts made on the other side. Here is the finished wheel rim (well, completed, finishing will require some varnish)
(https://i.postimg.cc/7LX1zZtQ/IMG-2383.jpg)
This gives a good idea of how it will look on the model...
(https://i.postimg.cc/mDDYyW0Z/IMG-2384.jpg)
The smaller wheel will be made the same way...
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Looks like a great start! but what's that brown stuff? :Lol:
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Chris excellent work 👍.
Can you please build the same wheel for me with a diameter of 1300 millimeters? You know, that's what I miss about the machine 😁
Michael
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Chris excellent work 👍.
Can you please build the same wheel for me with a diameter of 1300 millimeters? You know, that's what I miss about the machine 😁
Michael
Actually, yes!
As long as you make the hub, with the holes/slots for the spokes, to match your machine and send it to me, I can make and fit the rest - My metal lathe is too small for that hub, but I do have a full size wood shop and that kind of wheel is very do-able. I've done lots of furniture, full size boats, etc.
Chris
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It's a shame that you live so far apart.
At some point I will rebuild the large steering wheel.
Only the big brass lump for the wheel hub is missing.
Michael
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Super nice work on the wheel there, Chris! Unlike many on this forum, I actually enjoy working with that brown stuff too! You have some real skills there.
Kim
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Super nice work on the wheel there, Chris! Unlike many on this forum, I actually enjoy working with that brown stuff too! You have some real skills there.
Kim
Thanks Kim!
I started out a woodworker as a youngster before expanding into metal/stone/etc later on. Most recent has been a replica of a Baker flintlock rifle, mostly done, just waiting on the castings for the sword bayonet, due in another month.
(https://i.postimg.cc/5tZ7P3MF/IMG-2390.jpg)
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Started in on the smaller of the two steering wheels, same methods as the first one for the most part. Cut all the angles on the ends of the pieces on the mill, and superglued the edges of the middle layer to start the pattern:
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZqrMs5rL/IMG-2385.jpg)
and added the outer layers with wood glue:
(https://i.postimg.cc/rp6H9rtm/IMG-2386.jpg)
Once that was cured, the center was milled out like the larger one (forgot to take a picture of that), then did the rest of the shaping on the lathe since it fit and its quicker:
(https://i.postimg.cc/xC5FYppJ/IMG-2392.jpg)
Drilled the holes on the mill with the rotary table
(https://i.postimg.cc/MHG3G0gs/IMG-2393.jpg)
and back to the lathe to trim down the sides and shape the corners inside and out
(https://i.postimg.cc/4yFLH7gX/IMG-2394.jpg)
Here are the two wheel rims so far
(https://i.postimg.cc/ryhYPbt7/IMG-2395.jpg)
The smaller wheel held up to show size
(https://i.postimg.cc/gJmBCbsb/IMG-2396.jpg)
Next step is to move on to the hubs, which will be brass.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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The hubs for the steering wheels were a pretty straightforward turning job, here is the one for the larger wheel in process:
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZKjm5j2S/IMG-2397.jpg)
and both ready for drilling the spoke holes. The inner one is bored through to match the shank on the spur gear on the upper shaft, the outer one is drilled partway through the size of the upper shaft itself.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Qdt391ZW/IMG-2398.jpg)
drilled the spoke holes in each
(https://i.postimg.cc/dVxK83JN/IMG-2399.jpg)
then milled out the dog clutch lobes
(https://i.postimg.cc/xdNVgQCf/IMG-2400.jpg)
Hubs so far - last steps on the hubs will be to drill/tap the holes for the screws to lock them to the shafts. When using the engine, the two wheels are disengaged from each other, and the small wheel locked to the shaft, the large wheel allowed to rotate freely on the shaft, but will have a bracket on the rear wall to keep it from turning and whacking the steersman. When not using the engine, and manually steering the ship, the small wheel is slid forward to engage the clutch on the large wheel, and both wheels are locked to their shafts. The clutch on the lower shaft from the engine is disengaged. That way, the steersman can use the large wheel to steer the ship - the larger diameter wheel gives more leverage to push the rudder back and forth.
(https://i.postimg.cc/DZVkMNJq/IMG-2401.jpg)
After the locking screw holes are drilled/tapped, a little pair of brackets need to be made and mounted to the rear wall. These brackets will have flanges to ride in the slot in the larger wheel hub to keep it from sliding away from the rear wall on the shaft when it is unlocked. Then I can start making the spoke rods and handles for the outer ends.
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Couple of side notes:
Michael: My copy of that plans book by Josef Reineck on the oscillating engine in the Diesbar arrived today. Looks quite interesting! As you mentioned thay changed the reverse gear to a slip eccentric, other than that it looks quite close to the original. It would be interesting to see if that could be changed back when you do your model (or if I do one as well someday). In the meantime, some good reading!
All who may be interested in it: In the latest issue (Nov/Dec) of Live Steam & Outdoor Railroading, a note from the editor at the front says that they are going to be offering digital subscriptions as well as digital back issues of the magazine soon. No date given, but sounds like sometime in the next several months. It looks like Home Shop Machinist Magazine already has those options active.
Chris
Edit: Okay, I went back to the videos you posted links to, from two different ships with a similar oscillating engine. One uses a two-eccentric + stephenson link arrangement for reversing, the other one has a single eccentric with some other linkages down below it. I need to study the video more to try and figure out how that one works. I dont THINK it is a slip eccentric on that engine, but maybe it is? :headscratch:
Edit 2: Aha! Yes, that one IS a slip eccentric, finally spotted the eccentric position changing as the engineer reversed the engine, it changed in relation to the cranks. :cheers:
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Chris, nice that you own the book too.
I've had the book on my bedside table for a week now. I'll start reading tomorrow.
You are right the machine has the Stevenson controls. It is a two-cylinder low-pressure steam engine with injection condensation. Then there's the Penn backdrop. It should be complicated to use. Each cylinder can be controlled individually with a lever system, which is practiced when starting and then the levers are hung in the automatic.
There are different designs of the oscillating machines on the ships.
I'll do some research.
Michael
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Chris, nice that you own the book too.
I've had the book on my bedside table for a week now. I'll start reading tomorrow.
You are right the machine has the Stevenson controls. It is a two-cylinder low-pressure steam engine with injection condensation. Then there's the Penn backdrop. It should be complicated to use. Each cylinder can be controlled individually with a lever system, which is practiced when starting and then the levers are hung in the automatic.
There are different designs of the oscillating machines on the ships.
I'll do some research.
Michael
Sounds good! I scanned in the text pages (which are a bit beyond my limited German skills), and ran them through an Optical Character Recognition and translation to English, which will help my understanding of the details a lot. The operation details on the levers is still a bit confusing - probably one of those things that you need to see diagrammed out to completely understand.
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I was out all this morning doing other things, but did get a little time in the shop this afternoon taking care of some more fiddly bits. The steering wheel hubs need locking screws, which in the pictures from Michael I see some with wing-nut style ends. Easy enough to make something that shape from some 5-40 socket head screws - clamped them sideways in the mill vise, and flattened off the sides:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Y06QZ7QK/IMG-2403.jpg)
making these winged ends:
(https://i.postimg.cc/fynx8ytf/IMG-2404.jpg)
I may go back and file the centers a little for more shape.
The other small piece needed on the hubs was a small retaining bracket for the large wheel hub, to keep it against the wall when the locking nut is loose and the clutch is not engaged (which is always when running the steering using the engine). Milled that from a bit of small square bar stock and screwed it to the flange on the rear wall:
(https://i.postimg.cc/pVzQpf4G/IMG-2405.jpg)
The lip on the end of the bracket rides in the groove on the hub, holding it from sliding out. Now, I guess I got the first hint that Christmas is coming - I needed a very short 2-56 screw to hold that bracket, and was about to cut the end off a 1/4" long one (shortest I stock), when I found an already trimmed one laying on the floor next to the trash can. Perfect length, just needed to file a bur off the cut end. All I can figure is that the shop gnomes are trying to bribe me into getting them a new box of shiney parts for Christmas to add to their hoard. Either that, or their pet goat got scared off when I came into the shop and left the other half of his lunch laying there... :Lol:
Anyway, next will be to start in on turning the handles for the wheels. I need 12 of them all the same shape, so the plan is to set up the compound rest on the lathe and production-line turn each angle on a pile of handle blanks, adjust for the next angle, and go through them all again. Repeat till done with the dozen parts. Good thing to start on tomorrow...
:cheers:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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That's a great idea with the wing screw! I'm really curious how the handles are made.
Grinding a steel for the lathe in the profile of the handles would also be an option. I used to do this for profiling the ends of masts for railings. But it was just a kind of ball.
Michael
:cheers:
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That's a great idea with the wing screw! I'm really curious how the handles are made.
Grinding a steel for the lathe in the profile of the handles would also be an option. I used to do this for profiling the ends of masts for railings. But it was just a kind of ball.
Michael
:cheers:
That would work to get the outline, drill a shallow hole in the end, then mill the flats on either side.
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Began shaping the spokes for the two wheels today. First cut 6 long and 6 short pieces of 303 rod, and squared up one end in the lathe on each. Then, using the tailstock with a center drill as a stop reference, measured back on the first one the height of the handle end of the spokes, and used a parting tool to cut in the diameter to fit the holes in the wood rims.
(https://i.postimg.cc/wTyb0ff6/IMG-2406.jpg)
Once that first one was done, I swapped out the other 11 one at a time and made the same cut, same position and depth. That went quickly since the tailstock lined up each piece in the same place in the chuck.
Then turned each piece around, and turned the shafts down to size. Where they go through the rim is a larger diameter than the rest of the length. Since they are thin, each was done in short segments down the length of the rods. Kinda hard to see the steps to the diameter in this photo, but they are there - scaling down for the size of the photos for the forum loses some of the details.
(https://i.postimg.cc/QNnygGq4/IMG-2409.jpg)
This shot shows it better
(https://i.postimg.cc/TYzNSVFn/IMG-2412.jpg)
Here are the parts so far test fit on the hubs. The ends of the spokes are a close fit into the holes in the hubs so they stay together nicely. At final assembly a little loctite should glue them in well.
(https://i.postimg.cc/6pCbN7xg/IMG-2411.jpg)
Next time I'll start shaping the handle ends of the spokes...
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It's not so much the scaling that makes it hard to see... It's that pile of strategically placed swarf behind the part that makes it hard to see the transitions. No doubt it was put there by the shop gnomes in retaliation for chasing their goat away from the rest of his lunch.
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I see what it's supposed to be. The workshop elves will soon have a nice new toy. They will argue who is allowed to steer!
Michael
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Hello Chris,
I looked again for information on the oscillating steam engine in my books. There are few details about it. Even in the German steam engine Bible >> The development and history of the steam engine << from 1908 there is only one picture.
I think the control is complicated and therefore only simplified in the model construction book. A member of the German steam model forum built the machine with two eccentrics for forward and reverse driving and also changed the cylinders a bit.
Michael
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Hello Chris,
I looked again for information on the oscillating steam engine in my books. There are few details about it. Even in the German steam engine Bible >> The development and history of the steam engine << from 1908 there is only one picture.
I think the control is complicated and therefore only simplified in the model construction book. A member of the German steam model forum built the machine with two eccentrics for forward and reverse driving and also changed the cylinders a bit.
Michael
The videos you posted of it running show a lot of the little details that they simplified in the book in the shape of the cylinders and other part, you'd definitely be able to add a lot of that back, especially if you scaled up the plans to make it half again or even double the size in the book.
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I see what it's supposed to be. The workshop elves will soon have a nice new toy. They will argue who is allowed to steer!
Michael
While they are arguing over it, I'll get my turn! :Lol:
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It's not so much the scaling that makes it hard to see... It's that pile of strategically placed swarf behind the part that makes it hard to see the transitions. No doubt it was put there by the shop gnomes in retaliation for chasing their goat away from the rest of his lunch.
At least brass goat exhaust is better smelling than the normal goats... :LittleDevil:
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I'm told that brass goats are far less likely to try and butt you while you're faced the other way. I'd still keep one eye open around goats (brass or the usual kind) :Lol: :cheers:
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Set up the compound slide, and shaped the handles on the spokes this morning. I used a variation on the old trick for shaping bearing caps, several flat cuts 10 or 15 degrees apart to simulate a true curve, then used a file to blend them together. Since the handles all have a step cut into them where the shank starts, that step was perfect for aligning the parts in the chuck - put the step against the jaws each time, and the parts are in a repeatable position so I could make the same cut on all 12 then change the angle.
Started out with a steep cut at the end.
(https://i.postimg.cc/pLtHQpNC/IMG-2419.jpg)
changed the angle a bit for second one to start to turn the corner
(https://i.postimg.cc/j59VDjQz/IMG-2421.jpg)
a third to finish the corner
(https://i.postimg.cc/SsjFQ98S/IMG-2422.jpg)
and one more to get close to the parallel cut down the length
(https://i.postimg.cc/W4NcKC1J/IMG-2423.jpg)
The last cut was angled back in to narrow the base of the handle. Finished this cut at the base while leaving a bit of room for the reverse curve
(https://i.postimg.cc/1zv1ZB87/IMG-2424.jpg)
That was it for the cuts, then just a final few swipes with a file to smooth the curves fair
(https://i.postimg.cc/t4tHBppj/IMG-2427.jpg)
All those steps were done on all 12 parts before moving on to the next cut, so at this point they are all done and ready for a test fit. Oh, and the rims were varnished yesterday, really brought up the color nicely.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ThMZcHs1/IMG-2428.jpg)
a closer view of the small wheel. I am going to chuck them up one more time and trim a little of the hub ends to get them seated a little deeper to get the handles in the proper location, then a drop of loctite in the holes for final assembly.
(https://i.postimg.cc/RhnkKzX2/IMG-2429.jpg)
Good time to break for lunch, and go outside and clear a few more leaves in the yard... :cheers:
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Those are beautiful wheels, Chris! :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
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Like it a lot.
another step further.
:cheers:
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Fantastic looking steering wheels Chris! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Looks like you used some circular logic for turning the handles... :embarassed: :Lol:
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Thanks guys, I'm quite pleased with how they came out!
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Hi "C" love the wooden wheels and everything looking good !!
"W"
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:Love:
:drinking-41:
Don
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Beautiful work as always Chris! The wheels are outstanding!
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:cheers:
Back to finishing up the rudder indicator after the side trip to the steering wheels (brain needed a shift!) Started with a offcut lump of brass, squared up and chucked in the 4-jaw with some spiders behind it to align it in the jaws. Turned the bottom side down to leave the post sticking out, which was drilled to clear the screw through into the gear. The goal is to have the screw draw up the gear and have the two parts tight to each other.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Z5rkSKrC/IMG-2432.jpg)
Then turned the piece post-down into the 3-jaw chuck and put that onto the rotary table on the mill.
(https://i.postimg.cc/KYF6vSNQ/IMG-2433.jpg)
I drew on the shape of the pointer, and started whittling away at it with a small end mill:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Xv8TrH1W/IMG-2434.jpg)
I aligned the pointer side to side, and counted turns/ticks on the handwheel when offsetting to the first side so I could duplicate the angle on the other side. After a bit of nibblilng away, had the finished pointer:
(https://i.postimg.cc/pTc4Z9t1/IMG-2435.jpg)
Here it is bolted up with the gear on the engine:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Tw3BgVBD/IMG-2437.jpg)
When it gets installed for real after painting the walls, I'll include a bit of blue loctite in the screw threads.
All thats left for the 'steering' part of the steering engine is the limitting block on the front end of the upper shaft. That is next, and after that the work on the 'engine' part can begin, with the control valve. When work starts on the valve, it should be a good time to start painting the walls and bed plate.
Thanks for watching along and jumping in with comments! :cheers: :cheers:
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👍👍👍
When the display is first mounted on the green background, it looks even better.
:cheers: Michael
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Love you Wheels and the new Pointer :ThumbsUp:
But your 3D Printed 'Spider' really caught my eye - that is a very clever, usefull and simple idea :praise2:
Pretty sure that I will make one for my 3 jaw chuck :)
The one I 'Borrowed' a number off years ago (Xy? from YouTube) - is much more precise, but also requires much more work to make and use. The are extra holes so I can move the 'Blocks' and a very fine cut will make it very precise again.
Per
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Hi Per, the spiders are very useful, I made sets for the 3 jaw and 4 jaw chucks. There are three different thickness ones in each set, so they can be stacked for different total depths. The only issue with them is that I made this latest set from PLA, and if the work gets hot it can soften or melt the plastic. I have an earlier set that I had printed online from a powder plastic that handles heat better.
Michael, I am looking forward to seeing the parts in paint, it will change it a lot!
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After a few hours outside enjoying a beautiful fall day, I decided to tackle the next-to-last bit of the steering portion of the engine, the cover for the limit stop at the front end of the upper shaft. Took a length of rectangular stock, and turned it round on one side (again using one of those lathe chuck spiders).
(https://i.postimg.cc/yY6554jz/IMG-2438.jpg)
Flipped it round and drilled/bored out the inside:
(https://i.postimg.cc/t4wMY1jX/IMG-2439.jpg)
then over to the rotary table to angle the sides of the mounting flanges and drill the mounting holes
(https://i.postimg.cc/rmLZNvs3/IMG-2440.jpg)
and lastly milling the slot for the top spine on the limiting nut.
(https://i.postimg.cc/XYpPjftH/IMG-2441.jpg)
My thinking was that either end of the slot would limit the movement on that spine (which keeps the nut from rotating, instead threading itself down the length of the shaft). But... can you see the flaw in that thinking?
(https://i.postimg.cc/15WT1C7V/IMG-2442.jpg)
One look at it on the wall panel, and I realized that I had made the age old mistake of making something that could not be assembled! The nut is round on the outside, and is a close fit inside the cover, with the spine sticking upwards to go in the slot. With this setup it could not be assembled. :wallbang: Looking back at the pictures Michael gave me confirmed it - that slot need to go all the way to the end of the part. So, another quick trim on the mill:
(https://i.postimg.cc/DzGYs2v1/IMG-2443.jpg)
Much better! It does remind me of this picture, showing more impossible fasteners:
(https://i.postimg.cc/JnZ5zSkF/Hayes-Bolt-Plaque.jpg)
So, last piece of this portion of the model will be the limit nut itself, will tackle that tomorrow.
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we have the DIN (German Industry Standard)
in there it is written:
The inside diameter of a tube must not be larger than its outside diameter.
Michael
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Also very useful.
DIN 909
Special screw with anti-unscrewing device.
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we have the DIN (German Industry Standard)
in there it is written:
The inside diameter of a tube must not be larger than its outside diameter.
Michael
:noidea: :facepalm2:
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When Hayes did their plaque they forgot one important fastener type - "pre-stripped, for easy overtorquing" :Lol:
On the boss with the slot assy issue, I was sure you were going to cut a little channel on the flange, down to the keyway, to pour in lead or aluminum - the "perma-key". That'd be my story and I would be stickin to it! :Lol:
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When Hayes did their plaque they forgot one important fastener type - "pre-stripped, for easy overtorquing" :Lol:
On the boss with the slot assy issue, I was sure you were going to cut a little channel on the flange, down to the keyway, to pour in lead or aluminum - the "perma-key". That'd be my story and I would be stickin to it! :Lol:
That would be a good story, but the spine is much shorter than the slot in the cover, so the nut can move forward and back. I'd have to get out the invisible mold walls... :noidea:
I've gotten a few of those prestripped fasteners over the years, I thought they just forgot to thread them but they were ahead of me and stripped the threads!
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Er, ah, if you've got an extra half dozen of those invisible mould walls, or a hole mover machine for holes in the wrong place, drop 'em in the mail, willya? :Lol:
Those items are always handy. In my day job working with plastics much or my time I often wished we had a Magic Wand for adding draft to parts that wouldn't eject nohow, or doing impossible undercut holes or ribs or snaps to horrible parts the clients had designed and we had to somehow make mouldable. :cussing: :cussing: :cussing: Thankfully I don't have those wonderful tasks to deal with now! :cheers:
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Last piece for the upper shaft is the limit nut. Its a round section with a flange sticking up, so easiest way to make it I could come up with was to mill in the round section with the bar held vertical on the rotary table, leaving the flange.
(https://i.postimg.cc/TPsSyfyX/IMG-2445.jpg)
The chuck was taken over to the lathe to drill/tap the center hole, and part off the nut. A little filing to square the inside corner of the flange, and it went on the shaft
(https://i.postimg.cc/Y0Ks3Rfn/IMG-2448.jpg)
and the cover slid over. On final assembly, I'll add some washers next to the nut to limit the movement as needed, just like on the original
(https://i.postimg.cc/k4tHKz8R/IMG-2446.jpg)
So, here are the main parts so far, all the little pieces taken off again to prep for painting.
(https://i.postimg.cc/brxFFnmz/IMG-2449.jpg)
Before priming, the areas to be left steel colored on the engine bed needed to be masked off. Tedious work!
(https://i.postimg.cc/KcBVzXxd/IMG-2450.jpg)
Some more masking on the walls, to keep the bearing holes clear, and they can be primed.
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Chris, the washers that go in front of and behind the nut are rubber on the big machine. That should soften the impact.
Michael
:cheers:
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Chris, the washers that go in front of and behind the nut are rubber on the big machine. That should soften the impact.
Michael
:cheers:
Good to know! I can use o rings. Thanks!
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Since yesterday, the rest of the parts were masked off
(https://i.postimg.cc/6QP4PRNs/IMG-2451.jpg)
and given a coat of primer and of the green topcoat:
(https://i.postimg.cc/nrbjFJz0/IMG-2452.jpg)
Now, I can hear Michael doing a double take and saying 'hey, I thought the gear spokes would be black!' . Well, I have been debating that color for the gears, and decided to give the green a try there too. I can always go back and re-coat the spokes in black, which will cover over the green better than the other way around. I wanted to get a look at having them all the same color first:
(https://i.postimg.cc/W3Jqc32d/IMG-2453.jpg)
Still undecided at this point... :thinking: The engine parts will still be black.
Either way, I want to leave the parts for another day or so to let the paint harden up fully before starting any assembly work. The next parts to be made wil be the control valve, and I want to have the mechanism assembled before I start that so I can measure the actual travel on the control linkage in case I need to adjust the valve port spacing. This control valve looks a lot like a typical cylinder D valve, but rather than directing steam to either end of a cylinder, it sends steam to either end of the piston valves (aka spool valves) on each cylinder, to do the two jobs of throttle control and direction control. While the paint is curing up, there are some things I need to get done on the RC models to prep for the next runs.
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Oh, the gears in green look nice too.
The original engine was covered with sheet metal all around. You wouldn't have seen it there. I like the green. It's almost the same color.
Michael
:cheers:
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I've decided to repaint the gear spokes in black like the original, the green just wasn't enough contrast to make the gears stand out well enough. So, they are down on the paint bench setting up. Did get the rest partially assembled, enough to measure the throw on the valve control lever. That is right in range for the designed port spacing in the valve, so that work can start without changing the design. No reason it shouldn't have been right, but better to take a measurement and be sure before cutting metal!
Here is a shot of the painted walls put together for that test. Its amazing how the color change makes things like the engine moutint blocks really stand out.
(https://i.postimg.cc/DZ8wHdVr/IMG-2456.jpg)
After the gears cure up, I can do the final assembly of the walls on the base. The valve body will bolt into the large opening on the lower right of the upper shaft, that can be done with the walls in place.
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Hi "C". looking really good the paint colour is nice as well..also I noticed the spider/ spiders on your 4 jaw chuck ! are the a propriety item? and are they plastic ? and are they all in one piece ? I have not seen these before , and they look like a really good item to have...and do they come in different thicknesses ?? Interesting fixtures ...had another look ...are the 3D printed ??..........................................................................Hi Just looked again and yes everything is explained !!! Thanks I might make some myself now ..and are they all in one piece ??
Willy
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Hi "C". looking really good the paint colour is nice as well..also I noticed the spider/ spiders on your 4 jaw chuck ! are the a propriety item? and are they plastic ? and are they all in one piece ? I have not seen these before , and they look like a really good item to have...and do they come in different thicknesses ?? Interesting fixtures ...had another look ...are the 3D printed ??..........................................................................Hi Just looked again and yes everything is explained !!! Thanks I might make some myself now ..and are they all in one piece ??
Willy
Hi Willy!
Yes, Each one is one piece, they wrap around the ends of the jaws in the center, so there is a limit on how small a part I can hold with them in, but that has not been an issue so far. I drew them up in Fusion 360 and 3D printed them in PLA plastic (there was one set made before I had a printer, that set I had printed from one of the places online). Three pieces to the set for each chuck, three different thicknesses so I can stack them and get the part closer or farther from the end of the jaws as needed.
Chris
:cheers:
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Looking splendid as ever :praise2: :praise2: :wine1:
I like the spiders :)
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A nice compilation of the first colored parts!
When you build the valve box you can see that the valve push rod is guided in a bush in the lower area. But the bush is sealed to the outside.
I built it like this on the machine.
I don't know what was really on the lower thread.
But now that I see the original drawing from 1897, there is a pipe attached! For what? condensate drain?
Michael
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A nice compilation of the first colored parts!
When you build the valve box you can see that the valve push rod is guided in a bush in the lower area. But the bush is sealed to the outside.
I built it like this on the machine.
I don't know what was really on the lower thread.
But now that I see the original drawing from 1897, there is a pipe attached! For what? condensate drain?
Michael
Huh. I hadn't noticed that one either (always more to find in pictures!)
I think you are correct, a condensate drain there would make the most sense, it is the lowest point on the valve body, the exhaust is up in the middle at the back. I wonder if they would have had a valve there to let a little steam bleed through constantly, just enough to keep the pipes and valve body warm, since the steering engine is only used intermittantly?
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I would imagine that a valve was placed further down the pipe. So that you don't have to reach between the gears. This valve was always slightly open when the machine was in operation. As a result, condensation water could always run past the guide rod. I think I misinterpreted it when I put a locking cap down there.
I'll have to change something there. Let's see if I still have a nice old valve and dented copper pipe.
Michael
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I would imagine that a valve was placed further down the pipe. So that you don't have to reach between the gears. This valve was always slightly open when the machine was in operation. As a result, condensation water could always run past the guide rod. I think I misinterpreted it when I put a locking cap down there.
I'll have to change something there. Let's see if I still have a nice old valve and dented copper pipe.
Michael
Since they had the sheet metal cover over the engine when it was placed in the pilothouse, it would make sense that they would put the valve farther down the pipe so it could be operated without removing the cover.
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Here is the gear set with the spokes repainted to black:
(https://i.postimg.cc/tgTZPvtb/IMG-2457.jpg)
A subtle difference, but I like it. With the wheels in place too:
(https://i.postimg.cc/nhT9XfmT/IMG-2463.jpg)
So, back to making parts! The next ones will be the control valve, that takes steam in, exhaust back from the cylinders, and directs which pipes get which at the steam chests on the cylinders. I got out the plan sheet for the valve, and was studying that, and realized that I should change the back end of it slightly to make it easier to do the pipe connections later on. I have a bag of Regner steam line fittings, including compression fittings for 3mm tubing that I'd like to use for the connections. As scaled down from the original, the back wall of the valve behind the valve ports is quite thin, not leaving much room for drilling/tapping in for pipe connections. Before I start cutting metal, I'm going back to the CAD version and move a couple wall locations in the valve to give myself more room.
Here is the valve body as drawn:
(https://i.postimg.cc/YCKPQHff/ValveCAD.jpg)
I am going to move the pipe connections, screw locations, and back wall around slightly to make them more practical at model size, which is only about 1" tall overall.
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Updated view of the control valve, using the 3mm Regner compression fittings and also moved the screws on the cover plate out to match 2-56 size.
(https://i.postimg.cc/L5bRcvgt/Control-Valve.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/QCthYvCN/Control-Valve2.jpg)
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Chris, it's good that you changed the shape. It's going to be a tight box and I'm curious how you can create the steam channels.
Green, black and wood is gorgeous!
Michael
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Chris, it's good that you changed the shape. It's going to be a tight box and I'm curious how you can create the steam channels.
Green, black and wood is gorgeous!
Michael
The passages are pretty straightforward, will mill in from the open side to form the ports, and drill to meet them from the side, the pipe fittings are centered on the passages. To get a smooth valve face I'm going to make a thin plate like you did on the real one and epoxy it down in the box. I have several sizes of very small end mills that I use on parts like this, they have 1/8" shanks, hold them in a small collet. Light cuts!
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Back online thanks Chris..............[but thru the back door]
3 weeks of being banned due to opening MEM from my Hospital bed & an alternate IP address was not fun :hammerbash:
I am sure hope Jo [Admin] will be able to kill the glitch :killcomputer:
Happy readings for me about the steering gear now
Derek :cheers:
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Hi Derek, good to see you back. I assume the fact that you are back is good news on the hospital front.
Frustrating at the time but good that the system is working, or at least acting on the safe side.
MJM460
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Hi Chris, I suspect that the valve has the second gland at the bottom to remove the unbalanced load on the valve rod. The leakage through the gland would require a drain for the resulting condensate, otherwise the pressure in the cap would build up to the supply pressure, which just restores the unbalanced force.
The force depends on the steam supply pressure, but I imagine it could be hard on the helmsman (person?) who had to to resist the force over a long watch.
Great progress on the model, a joy to follow.
MJM460
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Hi MJM,
That cap at the bottom is on the end of the guide for the valve rod - if it did not have the drain pipe below it, they would not need a gland there around the rod, just a sliding fit on the rod since all it would be doing is keeping the rod from twisting to the side, just like the end guides on a lot of Stuart Turner steam chests where the valve rod goes through into the far end. So, no issue around pressure building up behind the rod.
But, since there is a drain pipe there, I would expect no gland there either, since you want condensate to be able to get past the end of the rod, there might even be an extra channel next to the rod for the water. There is no doubt that condensate would build up in the valve body, since it is only sending on steam to the engine when the wheel is turned, and then for a brief period.
Chris :cheers:
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This morning it was time to get started on the control valve body. New plan sheet (attached) has been generated from the updated drawing. I looked through the bar stock supply shelves, and spotted a cut-off piece (I think from the Sabino engine) that looked to be pretty close in size to what is needed. Held it up to the plans, and its perfect! Just needed to be squared off to get rid of the sawn edges.
(https://i.postimg.cc/pdGcxdBH/IMG-2464.jpg)
Set up in the mill, and started taking back the ends, leaving metal for the front bolting flange
(https://i.postimg.cc/B6jYvGh1/IMG-2465.jpg)
and on the sides too
(https://i.postimg.cc/hGPZHmTs/IMG-2466.jpg)
The valve body so far. The top/bottom of the flange gets trimmed back to a curved shape later to let it clear the boss from the lower gear shaft. Next steps will be to hollow out the chamber (very carefully, dont want to go through the sides! )
(https://i.postimg.cc/W17fW8Ft/IMG-2467.jpg)
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Looking great Chris! and I like the black accents on the paintwork too. :cheers:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Looking great Chris! and I like the black accents on the paintwork too. :cheers:
Thanks! :cheers:
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Got started excavating the chamber in the valve body this afternoon. Started with a normal 1/8" end mill, took it down as deep as that would go and outlined/removed the middle of the space, then switched to a longer 7/32" end mill to take the opening down to full depth.
(https://i.postimg.cc/jdvRNHxQ/IMG-2468.jpg)
That left the lower part of the corners a larger diameter, so I got out one of the smaller 1/8" shank cutters, which reaches the bottom of the hole when extended a bit in the collet. Used that to take the inside corners to a smaller radius. In order to keep the side walls strong, I've made them slightly thicker than the scaled down original would have had, making the chamber slightly smaller, but its still plenty large for the normal sized valve slider, even with the slight radius on the vertical corners.
(https://i.postimg.cc/13tsK84x/IMG-2469.jpg)
As I expected, the bottom face of the opening is the correct dimension but not quite smooth enough for a tight seal against the valve slider, so I am going to make and glue in a thin plate for the port face. First I'll drill pairs of holes, one pair for each port opening, down to the depth where they will intersect the passages from the pipe fittings on the sides. To make sure THOSE passages drill cleanly, I'll drill them first then connect into them from the top. The thin plate will have the rectangular holes like a normal steam chest would have, but being seperate I'll be able to lap the top surface before installation.
Lots to keep track of!
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very good 👍
That's exactly how I did it. The plate is then lapped and glued in place.
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very good 👍
That's exactly how I did it. The plate is then lapped and glued in place.
Great!
Curious, how many parts did you have to replace on the original engine? I think you mentioned that one of the cylinders was remade?
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Hello Chris, I only had to remake the covers for the cylinder and piston valve. In addition, models made of wood for the iron casting.
If you need more details for the cylinder block, I can measure or take photos.
Greetings Michael
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Those patterns look great Michael! I think I am set for now on the measurements, will find out for sure when I get to the cylinders. :cheers:
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Got started on the ports/passages for the control valve this morning. Started with drilling/tapping the holes for the pipe fittings on the outside. The steam inlet and exhaust are on one side, the two connections for the cylinders are on the other side.
(https://i.postimg.cc/0NKJnpCF/IMG-2470.jpg)
A test fit of the fittings, these are Regner items (comes with the tubing end nipple and the compression nut), they have a M5x0.5 thread on the outside. I drilled the holes partway through, lined up with the inside of the far wall on the chamber above so I can have the rectangular ports above meet them.
(https://i.postimg.cc/vBWxFbkv/IMG-2471.jpg)
Then moved on to drilling the actual ports. Marked for the centerline in both directions on the upper flange, lined up the mill head and zeroed the handwheels so I could offset for the ports. The two outside ports are narrow, 1/16", the exhaust port it wider at 1/8".
(https://i.postimg.cc/kg4S6rRn/IMG-2472.jpg)
After drilling I switched to the small end mills and connected the drilled holes to make the slots. In the picture you can see the tool marks left by the end mills when making the chamber. I'll be making a thin valve plate to glue over the top that will give a nice smooth surface for the valve slider.
(https://i.postimg.cc/jSF7y8yy/IMG-2473.jpg)
Still to go on this piece are the holes/glands for the valve rod, the holes for the cover plate and mounting to the front wall, and shaping the narrow ends of the flange around the mounting holes.
One more warm day here, I'm heading outside for the afternoon!
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Chris, by screwing do you mean the German company Regner? The steam engines and steam locomotives as a model that you can screw together yourself. Many years ago I also built two models from Regner. They worked fine. Ideal for beginners. Were these kits also sold in the US?
Michael
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Michael, yes, that Regner. There is a company here, The Train Department, that carries many brands like Regner and Accucraft, plus thier parts. They are at a lot of the shows here too, and have a website to order from. I could make the fittings, but when I need a bunch of them its easier to order a bag of them in different sizes and have enough for a few projects.
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Got the cover plate for the control valve cut out and drilled/tapped into the valve body for the mounting screws:
(https://i.postimg.cc/8zdfL6bV/IMG-2474.jpg)
Here is what it looks like bolted on
(https://i.postimg.cc/k5fVpPZ1/IMG-2476.jpg)
and test fit in the hole in the front wall. The holes above/below the center of the cover plate are the mounting holes to hold the valve in place
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZqTBH5fv/IMG-2475.jpg)
Here it is with the pipe fittings on
(https://i.postimg.cc/yxSkxgNt/IMG-2477.jpg)
A view inside showing the valve rod.
(https://i.postimg.cc/SsPnm7mc/IMG-2479.jpg)
Also made the sliding plate that holds the large steering wheel and keeps it from spinning when it is not in use. When the engine is not used (broken, no steam, whatever the reason) this plate is retracted, and the dog clutches on the lower shaft and on the wheels are engaged, and the set screw for the large wheel tightened. That puts it in manual steering mode, bypassing the engine but still turning the chain to the rudder.
(https://i.postimg.cc/gJjw9BbY/IMG-2480.jpg)
That completes the main work on the valve body itself, what is left is to make the thin valve port plate and the valve slider, plus the spring loaded bar on the inside of the cover that keeps the slider against the valve plate.
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It's looking great, Chris! Love those steering wheels - they really set off the model! :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
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Second session in the shop today, making the valve face plate to go into the control valve body. I found a piece of .030" thick stainless plate stock in the scrap bins, and cut off a strip the width of the opening in the valve body, and a bit longer. To keep it from bending while cutting it out, I clamped it in the vise and made the cuts along the top of the vise jaws, with the part to be used in the vise. I know from past experience that milling/drilling thin stock like this will tend to make it grab and bend, so the best way to handle that is to clamp it between to thin pieces of wood and cut through the wood into the metal. So, grabbed two of the leftover pieces from making the steering wheel rims, and milled a slot in one to fit the metal piece, going about .020" deep.
(https://i.postimg.cc/258JDnck/IMG-2481.jpg)
test firt the metal piece to make sure it was a good fit, trimmed a little more, and got it to go into the recess.
(https://i.postimg.cc/DfbNnvgX/IMG-2482.jpg)
Then clamped the other piece of wood over the top, and drilled 4-40 clearance holes close to the metal piece
(https://i.postimg.cc/NMKzyBvZ/IMG-2483.jpg)
With it bolted up and the centerline and edges marked, I used a drill one size under the 1/16" end mill diameter and drilled the ends of each slot.
(https://i.postimg.cc/02RBNTWH/IMG-2484.jpg)
Switched to the 1/16" mini end mill, and cut out the slots. First cut through the wood, then took several very shallow passes to get through the metal, moving slow since these cutters are fragile.
(https://i.postimg.cc/kXQhRTLM/IMG-2485.jpg)
Back to a larger end mill for the center exhaust slot, widening it out but could not cut quite as wide, had to stop where the cutter met the ends of the existing slot.
(https://i.postimg.cc/jjg1dCmz/IMG-2486.jpg)
Last milling cuts were to trim off the ends of the metal bar to final length, referenced from the center slot.
(https://i.postimg.cc/x8HpR5CR/IMG-2488.jpg)
Unbolted the wood holders, showing the almost-completed plate. It still needs to have its corners filed off to fit into the valve body since the cavity there has rounded inside corners, and before installing permenantly it needs to be lapped on my diamond sharpening/lapping plates to get it smooth so it gets a good seal with the slider.
(https://i.postimg.cc/vBCSfkQT/IMG-2489.jpg)
After filing the corners, a test fit in the valve body. Don't worry about that line, thats a pen mark not a scratch!
(https://i.postimg.cc/9QcgdGjd/IMG-2490.jpg)
All came out good, time to go watch a movie with the shop elves and wait for the rain to pick up, the remnants of the latest hurricane that hit Florida is due to pass over the Northeast part of the country this afternoon, even this far north it looks like a few inches of rain. Glad I'm up near the top of the hill!
:cheers:
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It's looking great, Chris! Love those steering wheels - they really set off the model! :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
Thanks Kim!
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Chris, another phase of construction is finished.
When the valve box is completely finished, it will be interesting to see whether the closed valve is absolutely tight. You turn the steering wheel, it is open in one direction and turn the large gear back to the closed valve. It would be a test!
Michael
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
But which port steers port? :Lol:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
But which port steers port? :Lol:
Depends how much Port you drink! :DrinkPint:
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Chris, another phase of construction is finished.
When the valve box is completely finished, it will be interesting to see whether the closed valve is absolutely tight. You turn the steering wheel, it is open in one direction and turn the large gear back to the closed valve. It would be a test!
Michael
I'm really looking forward to that test! I am first going to test the valve by itself, hook up an air line to the inlet and move the valve rod by hand to ensure that it gives a solid 'off' position as well as gradual flow build either direction out the ports. Then I'll get it installed on the engine and make the links from the crank arm so I can do the same test with the steering wheel. That one should be worth a video of!
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I see it that way too
🍻
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
But which port steers port? :Lol:
Depends how much Port you drink! :DrinkPint:
Or how much port the pipefitter drinks when he or she is connecting the valve block to the cylinders! :Lol: >hic<
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Made up the control valve slider this morning. I found aa small rectangular offcut from the bearing blocks on Sabino engine, so I didn't have to square up a piece from round, just trimmed this one down:
(https://i.postimg.cc/MH33bmhP/IMG-2491.jpg)
I left the blank square on the ends and a little long, the ends need to be angled slightly on the finished piece to give the engine less flow at the startup/shutdown. After trimming the outside dimensions, the recess in the bottom was cut with a 1/16" endmill:
(https://i.postimg.cc/59srVf6B/IMG-2492.jpg)
Then drilled through for the valve rod. This hole is oversize from the rod to let the slider 'float' and settle against the valve port face. I located the hole by both measurement and double-checked by putting in a piece of the valve rod through its hole in the block, spun it, and checked the witness mark it left on the slider.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sD1Nfbht/IMG-2494.jpg)
The slot for the adjusting nut was cut next. I cut the slot just under 1/8" wide, so I can make the nut from some flat bar then file it to be a close but not binding fit in the slot, so the spring bar can push the slider down to the valve face.
(https://i.postimg.cc/TPv79w46/IMG-2495.jpg)
Then milled the slight angle on the ends of the slider. It was handy having the port plate seperate to check the spacings against the part, looking up through the ports from the bottom.
(https://i.postimg.cc/nhDSB7T2/IMG-2498.jpg)
A picture of the parts so far:
(https://i.postimg.cc/zXMPypw3/IMG-2499.jpg)
Next up is to make the adjusting nut and valve rod, which is threaded for the nut, then make the spring plate, springs, and the bosses in the cover plate to retain the springs. The valve slider is vertical in the valve when assembled, and it would be a problem if the slider wasn't always against the face plate - no steering, that reef is coming up fast...
Hmmm, reminds me of the old joke. Its was supposed to be between the US and Canadian navy, though it never actually happened (goes around the internet once in a while anyway)
US Ship: Please divert your course 0.5 degrees to the south to avoid a collision.
CND reply: Recommend you divert your course 15 degrees to the South to avoid a collision.
US Ship: This is the Captain of a US Navy Ship. I say again, divert your course.
CND reply: No. I say again, you divert YOUR course!
US Ship: THIS IS THE AIRCRAFT CARRIER USS CORAL SEA*, WE ARE A LARGE WARSHIP OF THE US NAVY. DIVERT YOUR COURSE NOW!!
CND reply: This is a lighthouse. Your call.
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:Lol: re lighthouse avoidance command decision gag - always good!
re new parts - :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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I needed to rewatch this video twice [about 11:50+ minutes ] to make sure I understood this fundamental cockup ....
Was it 1st Officer Murdock's Order [assumed as from the RN School of Navigation] or the Helmsman [Merchant training?] which caused the vessel to turn toward the iceberg? ....was this ever referenced in the subsequent investigations?
It would also be interesting to understand just when our World Navies [both Merchant and Military] stopped using 'rudder orders' based upon a 'handheld tiller'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZe-exu2RBU
[PS....Chris is OK with this posting in his Ships steering gear thread]
regards Derek
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Its a great video, the steering engine and wheel setup is more complex, but same general idea as the one that I am building.
And Titanic didn't turn the wrong way, it just couldn't turn fast enough given the short distance the lookouts could see. Not that I want to turn this thread i to a Titanic conspiracy theory rehash! Still, lots of very interesting construction details in that video!
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This morning got the valve rod and adjusting nut made. The rod needed to have threads in the center for the nut, but I didn't want to have the threads go out to the end where it goes back into the bottom gland. So, started with a slightly thicker rod, turned one end down to size, then a middle section was turned to size for 2-56 threads, threaded, and then the other end turned down as well to fit the o-rings in the top gland. Since the rod is so thin, I did the turning operations in short segments close to the chuck.
(https://i.postimg.cc/P578gXpF/IMG-2501.jpg)
Also turned the fitting for the top of the valve rod, where it will connect to the links from the crank arm.
(https://i.postimg.cc/qRV671Gs/IMG-2505.jpg)
Here are the parts so far. The end fitting has been loctited to the end of the valve rod. The adjusting nut was made from a piece of brass square stock, drilled/threaded in the center and filed to be a close but not binding fit in the slot.
(https://i.postimg.cc/KYggF6tc/IMG-2506.jpg)
Next steps will be to lap the faces of plate and the slider, and get the plate glued into the valve body. Then I can assemble it all and do a pressure test. Um, will need to make the gasket for the cover plate, and rig up some plastic tube to connect the inlet. I can do that test with the valve laying flat, so I don't need to make the spring bar first to do an initial test. Then I'll get going on the spring bar, and finally make the links to connect it to the crank arm and get a real test on the engine. Sounds simple, but I'm guessing a few days to get there.
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Nice little family shot of the control valve! :ThumbsUp: Lots of little parts there. :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
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Chris, looks great 👍
a small bathtub for workshop elves
no, the parts are in no way inferior to the big machine!
Michael
:cheers:
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Chris, looks great 👍
a small bathtub for workshop elves
no, the parts are in no way inferior to the big machine!
Michael
:cheers:
Great, thanks for giving the elves the idea of piping in compressed air to make the valve body a mini Jacuzzi! :Lol:
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Some more little fiddly work this morning. Started with smoothing the valve plate and bottom of the slider on a diamond sharpening plate (got a couple grits of them years ago for sharpening chisels and planes, they work great for this as well)
(https://i.postimg.cc/sDn8v4j8/IMG-2508.jpg)
Also made up the spring plate that keeps the slider against the valve plate. There is a flat bar that sits against the slider, and two springs up to the cover. I drilled/tapped for 2-56 screws at each end of the springs, loctited in screws, and cut off the heads. These will act as posts to retain the springs in position. The springs came from an assortment set of stainless springs from Wolff Gunsprings. They sell specific ones for different triggers, and also assortment packs of general springs, very handy and better quality than ones found in ball point pens.
(https://i.postimg.cc/jSL1NnCj/IMG-2509.jpg)
I also made up the cover gasket and a short length of pipe for the valve inlet to use while testing the valve, I'll connect it to the compressor with some plastic tube on the end of the pipe.
The valve plate was cleaned up to remove the oils left from the lapping, and glued in place in the valve body. I was going to use some epoxy, but decided to use some 3M 5200 adhesive/sealant that I have instead. Its REALLY gooey stuff, sticks to everything, and if not carefully handled it gets ON everything. Its made for things like attatching fittings on boats that you dont want to fall off again, quite tough stuff. I would not recommend it for cover gaskets since it does not release like a silicone gasket goo does, but I don't want this plate coming loose. I buttered the bottom side of the plate with a thin layer of it, and pressed it in place with tweezers. I'll let it sit overnight to set up before assembling and pressure testing the rest of the valve.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
:cheers:
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So your building it on a cobblestone street? :ROFL:
Great job by the way.
Ron
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So your building it on a cobblestone street? :ROFL:
Great job by the way.
Ron
Yeah, I stole the street from the town the shop elves started to build! :Lol:
Its actually a chunk of rubber floor mat that I have on top of the wood workbench, easy on painted parts plus tools and small parts don't roll away so easy.
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I thought for a while you were using your pet hippopotamus' back as a portable workbench - but I was embarrassed about bringing it up on the forum. :Lol: :cheers:
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Got the valve assembled this morning and it is working quite well. I was wondering how to show the air coming out of the proper outlet pipe, and since the shop elves broke their air canons in a war with the local squirrels, the next best thing was to stick bits of tissue paper in each pipe and move the valve from center (off) to either side to show the operation. Here is a very quick video (doubt it will win as Oscar)
[youtube1]https://youtu.be/IfKFAvn6y0Q[/youtube1]
Next up is to get it mounted on the engine and make the links up to the crank arm to test it for real.
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Looks pretty good! Not getting much leakage when they're closed, and that's important. :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
When you get it mounted you'll have much finer control over moving the valve too. That will be helpful in testing.
Kim
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Hi Chris, the control valve works great! Liked the video too. :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Very good Chris,
on the large machine, the valve is not 100 percent tight in the middle position. I then hear a very faint noise.
It is important that the machine goes to STOP.
Michael
Prost :cheers:
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Very good Chris,
on the large machine, the valve is not 100 percent tight in the middle position. I then hear a very faint noise.
It is important that the machine goes to STOP.
Michael
Prost :cheers:
I could hear a tiny hiss on mine (had to check since the compressor hose connection was leaking a little too), there is a very very slight leak at the one port. I doubt it will be a problem since I've never made a model sized piston valve (which will be at the cylinders) that didn't have a little bit of leakage too, so it shouldn't be able to build up enough pressure to move the engine. I hope!
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I've often thought about how to build the cylinder block.
I could remember how I once built a horizontal steam engine with piston valves. There was a blueprint for it at the time. The block is made of six parts. Two pieces of pipe, two connecting pieces with channel and two flange plates. Everything is soldered.
Maybe it is an inspiration for you.
Something needs to be changed. But the flange plate at the top would be possible and have a different shape at the bottom. With two holes for the columns.
But you might already have your own plans.
Michael
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I've often thought about how to build the cylinder block.
I could remember how I once built a horizontal steam engine with piston valves. There was a blueprint for it at the time. The block is made of six parts. Two pieces of pipe, two connecting pieces with channel and two flange plates. Everything is soldered.
Maybe it is an inspiration for you.
Something needs to be changed. But the flange plate at the top would be possible and have a different shape at the bottom. With two holes for the columns.
But you might already have your own plans.
Michael
Hi Michael,
I haven't given the cylinder blocks much thought yet, other than how to get the top/bottom passages to be in the right place in the valve opening, since they need to be at a known distance apart to get the spool valve dimensions to match. I was thinking of drilling vertical holes from the top/bottom between the cylinder and valve openings, and drilling horizontal holes from the outside of the valve side, then plugging the outside of those holes. That would get the holes to all line up without having to get angled holes in exactly the right place/angle.
I hadn't considered making the valve and cylinder halves seperately - that would work out easy as well. More thinking to do! :thinking:
:cheers:
Chris
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And first test of the control valve in place on the engine! I made up the links from the crank arm to the valve rod, and got it installed this morning. Turning the wheel either way opens the valve to run the engine the other way, which re-centers the valve and turns it off. Took a short video of it in 'action', which consists of hearing the air coming out one of the two control ports. Since the engine is not built yet, I was turning the front gear wheel manually to simulate it. There is some slack in the crank arm connection to the upper shaft which makes for some play in the wheel before the valve moves - looks like that is almost all in the Acme screw and nut. Very small slack, but enough to notice on the wheel. I'll have to investigate to see if I can tighten up that motion somewhat, or if that is just a 'feature' of scaling down.
Here is the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QT7hJQIPUdQ
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Cool! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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In principle it will work, very well demonstrated.
And now for the first time I can see with your hands how big the model has become.
Unless it was the hands of the workshop elves! 😁
Greetings Michael
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Very nice demo there, Chris! :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
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Thanks guys!!
Looks like next I can start on the actual 'engine' part of the steering engine, with the crankshaft! :cartwheel: It will be built up from bar stock, with the center section having a length of the Acme threaded rod forming the worm gear - I'll dirll through the section of threaded rod and pin it to the crankshaft center section
Thanks for following along and chiming in! :cheers: :cheers:
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I just wandered back into the shop to look at the issue of too much play in the wheel/linkage on the control valve, and have found where the extra movement is coming from:
(https://i.postimg.cc/C5xrwTH6/IMG-2342a.jpg)
In this picture, the two red arrows point at the crank arm on the left and a straight arm on the right, which suspend the bronze follower pointed at by the green arrow. Both arms are just a sliding fit on the crossbar, and they fit over posts on the sides of the follower. The fits on the bar and posts is pretty close, but there is just enough movement that the follower can twist as the screw is turned. It didn't show before, but now with the resistance of the valve rod packing, the crank arm gets resistance from the valve rod, and the straight arm rotates first, letting the follower rock, and delaying the first movement on the valve rod. Hope that makes sense! The follower is a little loose between the lips on the inner screw fitting, which was not a problem if everything moved together.
So, two things I can try: 1) either (A) connect the crank arm and straight arm with another crossbar to only let them rotate together, or (B) fix them to the crossbar so the crossbar has to rotate. That second option would make it a lot harder to assemble/disassemble, since I'd have to un-fix one of them from the crossbar to get the arms over the posts. That could be done with a removeable through-pin on both thought. 2) in addition to the first thing, also shimming the follower sides with some thin shim stock to get a tighter fit in the screw fitting, though I don't think that will help as much, and I dont want the follower to bind up.
So So, I think I'll give one of the first options 1A or 1B a try tomorrow. Right now there is over half a turn of nothing happening on the steering wheel, which is just too much - it functions, but its too much play for my liking.
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Good sleuthing, Chris! Knowing the issue is the big half of the problem. Once you know what it is, you can devise a solution for it. Looking forward to seeing what the final call will be.
Kim
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Success! I drilled/tapped through the crank and straight arms and the cross shaft for 1-72 screws, which got rid of the slack in the movement of the crank arm and valve rod.
(https://i.postimg.cc/3rfGx4Xx/IMG-2518.jpg)
There is still a little bit of wheel movement needed before the valve opens when turning the opposite way, but that is due to the overlap on the ends of the valve slider over the port openings. I COULD trim back the valve slider length to eliminate that, but until I have the engine built and running I am not sure that is a good idea - too small an overlap, and its possible the engine could over-run the off position and cause the mechanism to hunt back and forth at the 'stop' position. Better to wait and see how it behaves, and trim the slider at the end if desired.
Happy with that fix, so its on to the crankshaft! :cartwheel:
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Hi Michael,
Question for you on the real engine. When playing with the model and turning the ships wheel back and forth, I noticed that the rudder position indicator was angling off to the left when turning the wheel to the right, and right when turning the wheel left. That puzzled me, and made me go back to the pictures of the real engine to make sure I didn't install something backwards.
All is on the same sides as on the real one, but in looking very close at the pictures, I think I can see that the threads on the upper shaft that move the rudder indicator are left-hand threads. Is that correct? The worm gear on the upper shaft that moves the control nut is a right-hand thread, that one is easy to see since it is much larger pitch, but the smaller indicator thread appears to be left hand. Can you confirm that for me?
If so, I have two options. Well, three options - leave it as is and know that the pointer moves opposite, turn the dial plate and pointer 180 degrees so it points at what direction the ship is going to turn, or remake the threaded collar on the upper shaft as well as the square nut that rides on it to be left handed thread.
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First step on the crankshaft is the section of worm gear in the center that turns the front wheel. Cut off a length of the Acme threaded rod, trimmed to length, turned in the ends, and drilled/bored to fit the stock used on the crankshaft:
(https://i.postimg.cc/rswYC0sp/IMG-2520.jpg)
The worm section will be drilled/reamed for a taper pin to hold it in place. Here it is held up to the engine to show how it engages the wheel. The crank webs will have a matching round boss on the side facing the center, between that and the narrow section at the ends of the worm the shaft is prevented from moving sideways under the load of turning the gears and rudder.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Znssfbvx/IMG-2521.jpg)
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A little test:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtX3eNemYGQ
There is also some dead gear Insolvenz here.
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The pointer goes in the direction in which the steering wheel is turned.
Then you need a left-hand thread?
On the large machine, the levers are splined to the shaft. The screws you use also work and you can find out the correct position better.
The bronze carrier ring has no play at all in the groove.
Michael
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The pointer goes in the direction in which the steering wheel is turned.
Then you need a left-hand thread?
On the large machine, the levers are splined to the shaft. The screws you use also work and you can find out the correct position better.
The bronze carrier ring has no play at all in the groove.
Michael
Great!
So, looks like I need to change it to a left handed thread. Or extend the slot in the front wall to the other side and put the gear rack on the other side of the post, which would make the pointer move the correct way.
When I added the screws to the arms, I drilled and tapped through the arm and the cross bar, so its like a pin.
:LittleDevil:
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Shame about the "Links Gewinde" - most of Us don't realize it just by looking at them .... but it will be one of those details you probably will remember much longer than other details ;D
Otherwise great progress :ThumbsUp:
I wouldn't worry about the fact that you have a Hysteresis - as almost every single kind of servo has one, in order to avoid too much 'Action' / energy consumption, etc.
:popcorn: :cheers:
Per
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Shame about the "Links Gewinde" - most of Us don't realize it just by looking at them .... but it will be one of those details you probably will remember much longer than other details ;D
Otherwise great progress :ThumbsUp:
I wouldn't worry about the fact that you have a Hysteresis - as almost every single kind of servo has one, in order to avoid too much 'Action' / energy consumption, etc.
:popcorn: :cheers:
Per
Yeah, the left hand thread detail was there in the pictures but I never looked close enough to notice it. Its amazing how much detail a picture can have, on all of the models I based on real machines there have been details that I am still finding long after the builds!
Just took a look at the model, and widening the slot in the wall and swapping the gear rack to the other side is not an option, it would interfere with the valve linkages. So, I'll have to see if I can find a suitable left hand tap/die to remake that cylinder on the upper shaft. You are right, its one of those little details that would annoy me!
You are right about the servo behavior, without some of it they would sit there and quiver back and forth constantly!
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Got a good start on the crank webs this morning. The finished webs are between stock sizes for width/thickness, so I picked the next size up and cut two lengths, enough for all four webs. The two pieces were clamped together and drilled for the shaft holes. Each pair in the stack will be kept together and in this same orientation to keep the holes aligned and everything even.
(https://i.postimg.cc/GhJrJ2rn/IMG-2522.jpg)
Two short pieces of the crankshaft stock were filed slightly to make them an easier sliding fit, then cut off from the bar to use as alignment pins during the next steps.
(https://i.postimg.cc/rpbLFRGx/IMG-2524.jpg)
Set up in the mill, and trimmed the ends square and took passes down both sides to get the width down to the desired dimension.
(https://i.postimg.cc/zGzNdrXb/IMG-2525.jpg)
Made the cut down the center to split the pairs apart, and trimmed the cut edges too
(https://i.postimg.cc/sgTrqNvn/IMG-2526.jpg)
Here are the web pieces so far. Next step will be to take each one down to final thickness. After that can look at the shaft/pins. The joints will all be drilled/pinned with taper pins. Have to remember to put the worm gear between the webs before the final assembly!!
(https://i.postimg.cc/Zq0SSxNJ/IMG-2527.jpg)
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Thanks Jeff!
Got the webs thinned down, took cuts on both sides of each:
(https://i.postimg.cc/MHfJg7nv/IMG-2528.jpg)
Webs so far:
(https://i.postimg.cc/MXkJwnBt/IMG-2529.jpg)
In the photos of the real one, I can see that the ends of the webs are radiused, with the center point at the center of the shaft at the other end. That could be done either on the lathe or on the mill with the rotary table. I'll set up an arbor for that next time...
:cheers:
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Top work 👍
The crank pieces only with pins or also glue?
I would have used Loctite.
Michael
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Yes, the ends of the crank pieces are rounded.
I see now that the crankshaft is rounded at the transition to the crank. I think this is done so that there are no breaks at the point. The bronze bearing shells are also rounded there.
Michael
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Top work 👍
The crank pieces only with pins or also glue?
I would have used Loctite.
Michael
Ah - yes, forgot to mention the loctite. Whenever I do one like this, I first assemble with Loctite retaining compound and alignment blocks/clamps while that sets. Then I drill for the taper pins, and tap them in with another drop of loctite, trimming them off flush.
:cheers:
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Yes, the ends of the crank pieces are rounded.
I see now that the crankshaft is rounded at the transition to the crank. I think this is done so that there are no breaks at the point. The bronze bearing shells are also rounded there.
Michael
Rounding those inside corners would keep the stress points down, I never noticed that, plus the bearings would have to be rounded there to match. Nice detail! On the model that would be tough to duplicate, given the way the pieces are assembled. I do need to add the round plate next to the crank web that acts as a thrust bearing against the forces of the worm gear. Its great having the photos of individual parts during restoration!
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Getting started on the engine! How fun is that! You're moving at breakneck speed, Chris! (as always!) :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
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Getting started on the engine! How fun is that! You're moving at breakneck speed, Chris! (as always!) :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
Huh - only 2 months since the start of the build, I would have guessed its a lot longer! Perctise makes prefect! (have to keep working on that saying...) :Lol:
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Hi Michael - I should double-check this with you before cutting the keyways for the eccentrics: I am assuming that the eccentrics are set at 90 degrees to the cranks, with no lead angle? On an engine with two eccentrics and Stephenson links they would be angled slightly (10 or 15 degrees) for the lead, but on this one the switching of the piston valves from inside to outside admission for reverse means that the angle has to be 90, am I correct?
Chris
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Chris, I just got a call from my boss that I have to go to work. I'm on call and as soon as it's 1 degree below zero, everything breaks.
The pictures show the position of the cranks and eccentrics. First left and then right seen from the front.
Michael
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Thanks Michael!
I'm glad I live just outside Rochester, and not the next city west, Buffalo. They are at the end of Lake Erie, with the waters still warm and the first snowstorm of the year coming across Lake Erie. They're getting 3 to 5 inches of snow PER HOUR today. 3 feet and counting so far in the areas next to the lake. Where I am got a half inch last night, its sunny and snow is melting off here...
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so, back again.
The ventilation had failed in the town hall near the mayor.
I'm now also thinking about how to interpret the position of the eccentrics to the crank 🤔.
There are two variants of the control.
Piston valve with internal flow or external flow.
But the machine switches between the two variants!?
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AS= means exhaust steam or exhaust
VS= means steam entry
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Exactly! Since the control valve switches the steam inlet/exhaust on the valves on the cylinders between inside admission and outside admission, it changes the direction of rotation on the engine without the need for something like the Stephenson linkage that most engines use. While simpler, and quicker for the operator to change direction, there are drawbacks to this method. The Stephenson type setup allows for more efficient usage of steam by allowing control over the lead and cutoff of the steam going into the cylinders. That is very important for an engine the runs for long periods of time in one direction or the other, under constant or varying load. In this steering engine, like the engines used in machines like steam shovels, the engine stops and starts frequently, with very short run times. That makes steam efficiency over long runs irrelevent, and the simplicity and speed of reversing more important.
Back early on in investigating how the steering engines worked, I had made and posted these drawings, it is worth showing them again:
General arrangement of parts:
(https://i.postimg.cc/pXNPyk25/Valve-Base-Parts.jpg)
Control valve set to run in forward position, showing passages of steam into the cylinder, piston moves up:
(https://i.postimg.cc/gkvmhRJS/Valve-Forward-Position.jpg)
Control valve set to stop position, no steam admitted anywhere on cylinder:
(https://i.postimg.cc/9QCVYMwW/Valve-Stop-Position.jpg)
Control valve set to reverse position, and how it directs the steam to make the cylinder go downwards with same cylinder valve position as before:
(https://i.postimg.cc/NjDtJcRR/Valve-Reverse-Position.jpg)
The use of the control valve to change the path for steam and exhaust is quite clever on these engines. The Marion slew and crowd engines accomplished the same thing using a piston valve for the control, and slide valves for the cylinders, but they had to use a two-layered D valve that was a lot more complicated to make (diagrams for that are over in my Marion shovel build)
Chris
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Right,
this machine is one of the so-called "Volldruck Dampfmaschinen"
Full pressure steam machine.
No expansion.
Michael
:cheers:
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Steam engines are a lot like beer. Just a handful of basic ingredients that can be put together in SO many ways for many different results! :DrinkPint:
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Thanks Michael!
I'm glad I live just outside Rochester, and not the next city west, Buffalo. They are at the end of Lake Erie, with the waters still warm and the first snowstorm of the year coming across Lake Erie. They're getting 3 to 5 inches of snow PER HOUR today. 3 feet and counting so far in the areas next to the lake. Where I am got a half inch last night, its sunny and snow is melting off here...
Well, its past 11:15pm, and areas on the south side of Buffalo have hit 5'6" of snow, and it's still going. Thats five and a half feet, in mid November. Glad I live farther East of there! They are getting a bit of a break since the wind is swinging more southwest, so the snow is going up into the city more where they only got a foot so far... :paranoia:
It gets better later in winter since Lake Erie cools then freezes over (its shallow) so the lake effect snow isn't so bad.
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This is indeed a fun build of an early type of feedback control system together with pictures of the real thing and lots of fine model making :praise2: :praise2: :wine1:
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This is indeed a fun build of an early type of feedback control system together with pictures of the real thing and lots of fine model making :praise2: :praise2: :wine1:
Thanks Roger! :cheers:
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Dug out a arbor from the drawer that I could adapt to the crank webs, and rounded off the ends on the mill, using the hole farther from the end being rounded.
(https://i.postimg.cc/0Q3MD1FF/IMG-2530.jpg)
First stage of assembly - loctite retaining compound on the short sections of round bar being used as the crank pins, the longer single bar through the other holes is just there to keep it all aligned. The little brass blocks are spacers I milled to the size of the gap between the webs, used that when assembling them. I squeezed the assembly sideways in the mill vise briefly to ensure that all the webs were parallel. I'll let that sit to cure up, then will cross drill for the taper pins and then mill off the ends of the crank pins flush with the sides.
(https://i.postimg.cc/gjZwKBPJ/IMG-2531.jpg)
After that, will assemble all the parts on the crankshaft, again with loctite retaining compound (the green stuff) and taper pins before trimming out the gaps between the webs on the main shaft.
While waiting for this first set to cure up, I'll go ahead and loctite the worm gear onto the main shaft.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Nice looking crank pre-assemblies!
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Thanks Jeff, and its time to turn those crankshaft pre-assemblies into a crankshaft!
After letting the Loctite cure up during the day, started the final assembly last evening with pinning the worm gear in the center of the shaft (the shaft has been left over-length for now, so 'middle' is a rough placement). I have a couple sizes of 4/0 taper pins plus a taper drill, so the installation of them is pretty straightforward. Starts out with drilling a pilot hole - not really neccessary, but it takes a lot of use off the more expensive taper drill.
(https://i.postimg.cc/cLWqMsg3/IMG-2532.jpg)
Switched to the taper drill, and ran it through, stopping short and testing how far in the taper pin went.
(https://i.postimg.cc/tTww1yGY/IMG-2533.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/xjNBwkLH/IMG-2534.jpg)
Here it is all set and ready to tap it into place with a drop of loctite, which is not really needed but can't hurt.
(https://i.postimg.cc/B6XRQbyr/IMG-2535.jpg)
Then on to the crank pins, same process there.
(https://i.postimg.cc/d0WzYrWR/IMG-2536.jpg)
This morning I trimmed off the excess length of the taper pins with a hacksaw then milled them and the crank pins flush
(https://i.postimg.cc/0y0TVLDB/IMG-2537.jpg)
Then got started putting the crank webs onto the main crankshaft, along with the little washers I turned up that act as thrust bearings. The first side was loctited in place and adjusted to place it in the proper distance from the worm gear, so that it spans the main bearing holder on that side. Gave that a little while to let the loctite grab, then did the same on the other side, going back to Michaels pictures to make sure I had the cranks offset the proper direction to match the real machine. The webs were lined up 90 degrees from each other by laying them against straight edges.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Gp3ZVqjh/IMG-2538.jpg)
Once the loctite had set up enough for careful handling, the shop elves could not wait to hold it up against the engine to get a better look
(https://i.postimg.cc/L5P7L7mv/IMG-2541.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/BQWR4qCz/IMG-2542.jpg)
I'll let that set up to cure for the day, then pin the webs to the main shaft the same way the pins were. Then I'll prop up the shaft in place under the gear to double-check that the plan height of the main bearings is correct, or if it needs some adjustment for a good mesh on the gear.
Left to do on the crankshaft after that: trim out the section between the webs, cut the keyways for the eccentrics, and trim the shaft to final length. I think I'll leave one end long for now, that way I can put a small drill chuck on it and use it to turn the engine over by hand during timing/adjustments of the valves.
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Nice crank shaft, Chris!
So where did you get those nifty taper pins and taper drill? I assume they come as a matched set?
Kim
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Hello Chris,
perfect look!
The crankshaft will last forever. I also own a few of these cone drills but they are much too big for model building.
There is another picture of the crankshaft, I don't know if I've shown it before, where you can see how the cranks and wedges of the eccentrics are in relation to each other.
Michael
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Hi Michael,
At first glance I thought you had started your version of the model, then realized it is the real one! :shrug: Now that you have your shop back together, is a version of this engine on your list? You have a larger lathe, maybe do one larger?
You had not shown those pictures, thanks very much for them!
I would be starting on drilling the other taper pins by now, but we have another afternoon at the local pool to run the RC subs, which is forcing me to be patient and wait for the loctite to cure up properly.
Chris
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Nice crank shaft, Chris!
So where did you get those nifty taper pins and taper drill? I assume they come as a matched set?
Kim
Hi Kim,
I got them from McMaster-Carr, they sell both the pins and the drills and reamers. As I recall when I was looking for them most of the other sellers here carried the pins but not the drills and reamers, or vice versa. The first few models I just had the taper reamer to match the pins, so I used normal drills and stepped down through the hole with four different size drills at different depths, then used the reamer to join them up in one smooth taper. Worked well, but took a long time for each hole. I finally splurged on the drill during the Ward pumping engine build, glad I did, its a lot faster, though I still do drill a pilot hole to get the bulk of the material out at the size of the taper drill tip.
The taper pins come in different sizes, these are the 4/0 size. Each size comes in different lengths. On these I have two lengths, and it looks like they are the same size at the fat end, they just get narrower on the longer ones. They do make a very tight joint.
Chris
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........... which is forcing me to be patient and wait for the loctite to cure up properly.
Chris
I am quietly following and enjoying every move you make on this exciting engine. Your work rate is phenomenal. Waiting for the loctite to cure is probably the only way of slowing down you build progress. :lolb: :lolb:
Mike
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Just looked those up on McMaster's website. They don't give those bits away, do they? :o
And interestingly, the drill bits & reamers are listed as 1" over 50" taper. But the taper pins are listed as 1/4" over 12". That's 1:48 rather than the 1:50 of the drills. Why the difference?
Also, do you use the stainless taper pins? Or the 12L14 taper pins?
Thanks Chris,
Kim
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Just looked those up on McMaster's website. They don't give those bits away, do they? :o
And interestingly, the drill bits & reamers are listed as 1" over 50" taper. But the taper pins are listed as 1/4" over 12". That's 1:48 rather than the 1:50 of the drills. Why the difference?
Also, do you use the stainless taper pins? Or the 12L14 taper pins?
Thanks Chris,
Kim
The pins I have are the 12L14 ones (had to look up my order at McMaster to check that! ). I never noticed the difference in taper, did a search online and found this:
Standard inch-sized taper pins have a taper diameter of 1:48 while metric ones have a taper of 1:50.
On the reamers, some are listed as 1:50 and some 1:48. For a 1/4 or 1/2" deep hole/pin, I doubt it matters at all, I have not been able to see any wiggle in the fit as I use the ones made with that drill bit. I usually tap them with a hammer to seat them good and tight - maybe with the 12L14 they are soft enough to adapt to the very slight taper difference?
Maybe some of the others with formal training in this stuff could enlighten us!
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........... which is forcing me to be patient and wait for the loctite to cure up properly.
Chris
I am quietly following and enjoying every move you make on this exciting engine. Your work rate is phenomenal. Waiting for the loctite to cure is probably the only way of slowing down you build progress. :lolb: :lolb:
Mike
Where is that thumb-twiddling emoji? :Lol:
:cheers:
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Chris, I think I will definitely build the steering machine as a model for myself one day. At the moment I have other construction sites. But I keep a watchful eye on a suitable worm wheel, which I can get as a ready-made combination. That also sets the standard. I will prepare it in the long term.
And I will watch you with excitement and learn with my eyes.
Michael
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After a half hour trying to find the thumb twiddle emoji :cussing: :cussing: :cussing: I got the old gonkulator out and figured the angle difference between 1:48 and 1:50 pins is only .047 degrees. On a 6 mm long pin that only makes .0049 mm difference on diameter. I don't expect that would make a perceptible difference in feel while installing a pin. One knock with a small hammer and it's driven well I'd say. (the scratches and pits in much of my work are deeper than .0049 mm.) :Lol:
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Sorry.....old Vickers 4.5" twin mounts had dozens of BS taper pins installed......naturally as noted, 1:48 BS pins require 1:48 taper reamers
Same for Continental applications, ISO 1:50 pins require 1:50 reamers
Many years ago [in a previous life] I supervised a refit on HMAS Parramatta's Vickers 4.5" gun mount
In the UK [in years goneby], Gun builder supervisors inspected a bluing of every tapered pin hole taper, prior to hammering home.
[the amount of protrusion [height] of the head of a BS taper pin was also toleranced
From this you can see a BS pin could never be inserted to an ISO taper hole.........
Derek
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Well, if I ever start building a full size machine gun I will be sure I have the matching drill. For these models, with a 1/4" or 3/8" long pin, its working perfectly!
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the cheap imported machines have taper pins to align parts it would be obvious they don't know
i found pins fitted or not from just in the hole to drive welling with may be a 10 lb hamer the holes just drilled with a hand drill at any angle
in any position.these are a printing machine and a laminating machine for 1500mm wide web just horrible and now were near suitable for
the work.
john
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Continuing on with the crankshaft, the taper pins were drilled/installed last night, and this morning were cut off and milled flush with the surface:
(https://i.postimg.cc/xdhWBNyF/IMG-2543.jpg)
Then, after a LOT of double checking the photos from Michael to make sure I had them on the proper sides of the shafts, I milled in the keyways for the eccentrics:
(https://i.postimg.cc/T1XB38sV/IMG-2544.jpg)
And the nearly-complete crankshaft set on the engine (no bearing blocks made yet)
(https://i.postimg.cc/26WPYj0j/IMG-2545.jpg)
Now, to make sure that I was interpreting the photos properly, and that the screw threads were all in proper direction (after the slight goof with the indicator threads for which a new left-handed tap/die will be here this week), I did a test. I marked where the eccentric goes on the shaft from the photos, then used the valve porting diagrams I showed before plus actually turned the wheels on the model to see which direction things went, making notes along the way. All looked good so I went ahead and cut the keyways.
For those of you who like technical details and really really want to follow along on the mechanism, here is the sequence the parts go through (hang on, its easy to get dizzy)
- Steering wheel is turned to the right, as viewed from the back of the engine where the helmsman would stand
- That turns the upper inner shaft clockwise as viewed from the back
- That moves the control nut back towards the helmsman
- Which tips the crank arm, pushing down on the control valve rod
- which opens the upper port in the control valve to steam and the lower port to exhaust
- That matches the porting diagram shown the other day labelled 'reverse direction' which shows that the upper port with steam connects to the inside of the piston valve, giving it inside admission
- That moves the crankshaft counterclockwise, as viewed from the right front of the engine
- That moves the worm on the crankshaft left as viewed from the front of the engine
- That turns the lower shaft counterclockwise as viewed from the back of the engine
- As the lower shaft turns, the sprocket on it turns as well, pulling the chains on the right and moving the rudder to the right as well
- Which turns the upper outer shaft clockwise as viewed from the back of the engine
- Which makes the control nut forward again
- Which moves the crank arms to pull the valve rod back up to the 'off' position, stopping the engine!
Whee! As the old textbooks would say, the sequence when the steering wheel is turned to the left is left as an excercise for the reader! :Mad:
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Whee! As the old textbooks would say, the sequence when the steering wheel is turned to the left is left as an excercise for the reader!
That's OK. I'm just auditing this course, and don't have to do the homework! :Lol:
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Chris, I can only see one groove in your picture.
But I think if you assume one direction of rotation of the crankshaft, the eccentrics of the crank always run 90 degrees behind or 90 degrees ahead in the other direction of rotation.
Your explanation is understandable.
Michael
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I'm just wondering whether you have to pay attention to the installation position in the base, or does it not matter?
The eccentric and crank are stamped with an S for starboard. That means from the front it is installed on my left. But what is wrong when viewed in the direction of travel? 🤔
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Chris, I can only see one groove in your picture.
But I think if you assume one direction of rotation of the crankshaft, the eccentrics of the crank always run 90 degrees behind or 90 degrees ahead in the other direction of rotation.
Your explanation is understandable.
Michael
Exactly, both eccentrics are either ahead or behind the crank, depending on the direction of rotation. If one was ahead and one was behind, then the engine would deadlock
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I'm just wondering whether you have to pay attention to the installation position in the base, or does it not matter?
The eccentric and crank are stamped with an S for starboard. That means from the front it is installed on my left. But what is wrong when viewed in the direction of travel? 🤔
Yes, if the crankshaft is installed with the wrong end to the side, then it will run the opposite direction since the eccentrics would be on the other side of the cranks. Its a little counterintuitive since on a screw, a right hand thread is a right hand thread no matter which end you look at it from. On the model one its a lot easier to see the difference since I can flip it around in my hand to look at it both ways, on the real one you would have to walk around the other side unless you have a very strong helper!
The potentially good news is that if my walkthrough of what part turns the next in which direction this morning was wrong, all I have to do is flip the crankshaft end for end! O:-)
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Whee! As the old textbooks would say, the sequence when the steering wheel is turned to the left is left as an excercise for the reader!
That's OK. I'm just auditing this course, and don't have to do the homework! :Lol:
You can sit up in the bleachers with the shop elves... :Lol:
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Well, once everything is correct, let the workshop elves mark the crankshaft with punched letters. It's better they follow that so you can scold them if the letters are crooked.
And some industrial archaeologists can properly restore the machine in 100 years.
😂
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Well, once everything is correct, let the workshop elves mark the crankshaft with punched letters. It's better they follow that so you can scold them if the letters are crooked.
And some industrial archaeologists can properly restore the machine in 100 years.
😂
Just to mess with the archeologists, maybe I'll mark it backwards! :LittleDevil:
For now, its easy for me to keep it in the correct direction since I have kept the left end (as viewed from the engine end of the engine) long so I can put a small drill chuck on it to hand-turn the engine during construction and setup.
:cheers:
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That's OK. I'm just auditing this course, and don't have to do the homework! :Lol:
:lolb: >:D :lolb: Oh man :lolb: - Sorry Chris, but :ROFL:
Archaeologists usually have it hard enough to figure things out when enough years has passed - so consider to be kind .... ;D
Now where on the rafters are the :popcorn: and the :DrinkPint: :headscratch: - we need to pay attention now :slap:
Per
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If you want to really mess with the archaeologists , drill a wobbly badly finished hole somewhere completely arbitrary on the crank. Then stamp the letters "TIMING DATUM" next to it. :LittleDevil: The hole and letters should be placed under a hub or inside a bushing. :facepalm:
Or do as an old diemaker I worked with did - marked 0,0 for the datum on the diagonally opposite corner of the actual 0,0 on the die block. Caused some head scratching if a different diemaker had to do a repair. :hellno:
Another one (named George) stamped "MADE BY JUL. CAESAR" under the punch block as a joke, regularly!! :LittleDevil:
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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If you want to really mess with the archaeologists , drill a wobbly badly finished hole somewhere completely arbitrary on the crank. Then stamp the letters "TIMING DATUM" next to it. :LittleDevil: The hole and letters should be placed under a hub or inside a bushing. :facepalm:
Or do as an old diemaker I worked with did - marked 0,0 for the datum on the diagonally opposite corner of the actual 0,0 on the die block. Caused some head scratching if a different diemaker had to do a repair. :hellno:
Another one (named George) stamped "MADE BY JUL. CAESAR" under the punch block as a joke, regularly!! :LittleDevil:
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
That's evil. I like it!
Knowing how archeologists think, they'll call it an altar anyway...
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Or "an artefact probably used by high status individuals" :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:
I heard that a lot watching Time Team and other BBC archaeological shows!
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Today is eccentric day. Um, the ones on the crankshaft, not just me! :Lol:
Started out with a short length of stainless round bar, turned the end down to the OD of the eccentrics, and used a parting tool to put in the smaller sections around the center of each eccentric.
(https://i.postimg.cc/tgXh1gbg/IMG-2546.jpg)
Then used the dial indicator to offset the bar to one side:
(https://i.postimg.cc/5yFvcYBs/IMG-2547.jpg)
and drilled
(https://i.postimg.cc/B6zDwcK8/IMG-2548.jpg)
and bored the hole for the crankshaft
(https://i.postimg.cc/252nnfj7/IMG-2549.jpg)
Snuck up on the final hole size till it was a good fit on the shaft:
(https://i.postimg.cc/LX5LT0nK/IMG-2550.jpg)
then parted off the two eccentrics and took a light cleanup pass on the cut sides since the parting tool leaves the surface a little rough
(https://i.postimg.cc/pybjPWkR/IMG-2551.jpg)
A quick trip to the arbor press with the broach, and the the eccentrics are ready. The holes were smaller than the smallest guide block in the broach set, but it worked out fine, since the broach depth at the starting end matched the diameter of the holes, so I didn't bother with the guide block, and made one pass through.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Y24y2d8s/IMG-2553.jpg)
Now I need to make a pair of keys from some square stock, and they will be ready to install. I am thinking that I will add a set screw down through the thick part of the pieces, to lock them in place on the keys. Will see if tapering the key slightly is enough or not...
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That's a fascinating looking assembly of parts, and will be fun to watch in motion. For me, there is always something satisfying about any sort of offset turning/boring on the lathe. It almost feels like some kind of magic trick. :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
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Hi Ron,
Tricky part on this one was keeping it centered in one direction while offsetting it the other - the offset was enough that the other two jaws were going down the sides of the rod and I had to do a lot of checking to make sure they were still centered after tightening. The four-jaw chuck is a very handy thing!
Chris
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Got the keys made for the eccentrics - was able to get a tight fit with a little filing on the square bar, so I don't think I need to add a set screw. Here is the crankshaft all assembled:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Hxxc1ZDY/IMG-2554.jpg)
and a family shot:
(https://i.postimg.cc/fb5tF4Pq/IMG-2555.jpg)
Next step is to take some measurements under the shaft with it engaged in the worm wheel to see if I need to tweak the dimension for the bearing blocks, and then get the bearing blocks and bearings made. I had milled the engine bed down under the bearings and drilled screw holes to hold the blocks in back when I made the bed. On the original the bearing blocks were part of the base casting, and extended up above the rest of the bed. To keep from having to start with a thicker block and mill most of the top away to leave those 'towers', I decided to make the blocks separate pieces. Sounds confusing, but when I have them made and set it in place it will be clearer.
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wonderful Chris!
Your variant, the bearings of the crankshaft, to manufacture in this way is optimal. You can choose the exact height of the bearings. Do the bearings also get bronze bearing shells? On the original machine there is a different stack of thin brass sheets under each of the 4 bearings.
The bearings were not lubricated with drip oilers, but always with grease.
Michael
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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wonderful Chris!
Your variant, the bearings of the crankshaft, to manufacture in this way is optimal. You can choose the exact height of the bearings. Do the bearings also get bronze bearing shells? On the original machine there is a different stack of thin brass sheets under each of the 4 bearings.
The bearings were not lubricated with drip oilers, but always with grease.
Michael
I'm going to make the outer blocks from steel, they will have square bearings inside them with flanges on the outside to hold them in place. Each bearing will be a top and bottom half around the shaft.
Just measured the shaft and gear clearance, its within two thou of plan, so I don't need to change the plan dimensions.
:cheers:
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good job 👍
:cheers:
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To triple-check the height of the crankshaft in the bearings before going to the work of making them, I turned a couple of short bits of rod and set the crankshaft on them in the engine, they gave a good mesh on the gears while turning so I am going with that measurement:
(https://i.postimg.cc/hPMjRR4x/IMG-2556.jpg)
The bearing holders are between stock sizes (as always happens when scaling down an original engine rather than designing it as a model in the first place) so I took the next size up bar that I had, cut four lengths for the four holders, and trimmed them to length/width
(https://i.postimg.cc/dtJ1fVFw/IMG-2557.jpg)
They needed to be a little thinner too, that was most easily done on the lathe:
(https://i.postimg.cc/v8rTX6p0/IMG-2558.jpg)
Then I marked out the openings for the bronze bearing blocks on each one to help keep track of which side to cut. The bearing blocks themselves will be split squares with flanges that slide down into these holders, and a flat cap goes on top.
(https://i.postimg.cc/pLTd2cyS/IMG-2559.jpg)
Here is what they will look like:
(https://i.postimg.cc/HLYFGFxJ/Bearings.jpg)
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More done on the bearing holders this afternoon. Started out by milling in from the side to remove the bulk of the material from the openings:
(https://i.postimg.cc/rsxh32Bt/IMG-2560.jpg)
Then set the blocks upright to mill the 3 inside faces. Did all of them with the same setup so each would come out the same - the slots in the engine bed were all finish milled in one pass per face in one setup as well, so my theory is that when set in place the blocks will all line up in a straight line down the inner faces. I have each block marked so the operations are done in the same orientation. The handwheel settings for the front and back faces were noted on the first one, and the same settings turned to for each of the other three.
(https://i.postimg.cc/SsX1LMVd/IMG-2561.jpg)
Here they are all set in place on the engine bed (still need to drill/tap the screw holes in each one). They all fit in the same, just slide into place, so that is a good sign that the overall widths match up.
(https://i.postimg.cc/63DjMpmX/IMG-2563.jpg)
And with the crankshaft set into the openings. The bearings themselves will hold the shaft up at the middle height on the openings.
(https://i.postimg.cc/YSDym3Nj/IMG-2562.jpg)
Next steps will be to drill/tap all the mounting holes.
Given that the sides of the teeth on the worm wheel are taller than the middle of the teeth, the wheel won't slide in from the side at the normal meshing distance, so I am thinking that the nuts holding the wall plate will need to be loosened to let the wall rise up slightly to be able to assemble the crankshaft, bearings, and worm wheel. Michael, did you have to assemble the walls after the crankshaft went in, or did the shims under the bearings let you lower the crankshaft slightly to assemble? The left-hand tap/die set I need to re-make the indicator thread section of the upper shaft arrived today, so I will need to take the front wall off at least one more time anyway to get the upper shaft out for the re-work.
Thanks for looking in!
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The crankshaft was installed and set up first with its bearings. I had to set this up with the thin brass strips under the bronze bearings so that the shaft turns easily.
I still remember that the assembly of the side walls with gears and shafts first had to be put together and then came onto the machine base. Since it was already very heavy, I lifted it with a rope winch and put it on. The open holes at the foot of the rear stand are supposed to make assembly easier. So you push the stand from behind. But it didn't work out so well. It was easier with a cable crane.
Michael
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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if you always milled the bearings in the same lineup, you might not have any problems with the crankshaft. A crankshaft with four bearings is certainly not easy to store so that it does not jam.
But you're making good progress.
:cheers:
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Good to know. In the original factory they probably had all sorts of jigs and holders to make it easy!
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Lots of drilling and tapping this morning on the bearing holders. Drilled the holes through for mounting them and attaching the caps. Then threaded from bottom and top deep enough for the screws.
(https://i.postimg.cc/7LFB2C30/IMG-2564.jpg)
I added a set of threaded studs for the caps as well.
(https://i.postimg.cc/XJ9scVLh/IMG-2565.jpg)
The bearings themselves are next...
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I thought I heard a tapping noise... :Lol:
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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I thought I heard a tapping noise... :Lol:
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
That noise was me tapping the shop elves on the hard hats when they wouldn't stop tap dancing on the tapping fixture... :facepalm2:
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Oh very good, it's getting more and more similar.
Oh and I wish you a happy holiday. I think it's Thanksgiving.
🍻
Michael
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Thanks Michael, yes its Thanksgiving holiday here today!
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Hi all ...I think we should thank Thanksgiving to Chris for being on this forum and sharing :) :cheers: :ThumbsUp: his wonderful models and skills with us all !!
Thanks
Willy
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Hi all ...I think we should thank Thanksgiving to Chris for being on this forum and sharing :) :cheers: :ThumbsUp: his wonderful models and skills with us all !!
Thanks
Willy
I get just as much from all the builds and everyone sharing techniques, its a great group here! :cheers:
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Moving along on the bearings today - these bearings are square outside with a flange to fit over the sides of the holders, and are split into top/bottom halves. Lots of ways to make them, what I settled on was to make the top and bottom halves separately since the halves just fit into one of the sizes of bearing bronze rod that I have on the shelf. So, turned the outside of the rod to the fit a 17/32" collet (the bronze is made as a continuous case round, and the outside is oversize and rough) and then milled two sides down to the thickness. I alternated milling on each side, turning the collet block over so all the cuts were made on the same side, so the resulting block was in the center and no warping from any stress that may have been in the rod.
(https://i.postimg.cc/9XRHny4G/IMG-2567.jpg)
Once the rod was reduced to a rectangle the size I wanted, it was set up in the mill vise to slot one of the wider sides to fit the holders:
(https://i.postimg.cc/x1PwzR7S/IMG-2568.jpg)
Some space was left between each slot to saw them apart later and trim the flanges down to thickness. Then turned the block up on its side to mill the matching slots in the sides, so the block would fit down into the holders. This was a fiddly operation, needed to get each side to match up with the existing slot in the first side.
(https://i.postimg.cc/kM0P3D8L/IMG-2569.jpg)
After a lot of milling and fit testing, here is the block ready to saw apart into the top/bottom halves:
(https://i.postimg.cc/y8Bqx5LP/IMG-2571.jpg)
and a top view:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Wb0L2jwz/IMG-2572.jpg)
Next up will be to saw apart the bearing pieces, trim them to length, and drill/bore the holes for the crankshaft. The plan is to do that on the lathe with one of the bearing holders held in the four-jaw chuck. Once the opening in the holder is centered up, each bearing pair will be put in by backing out the jaw over the holder opening, clamped back in, then doing the drill/bore operation. That should ensure all four pairs are bored in a matching line, as long as I keep them all oriented the same way through the operations. That way of holding should also work for trimming them to length. Pictures on all that after it happens...
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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I'm again very impressed how rich your ideas are to produce parts in series.
Excellent!
Michael
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I'm again very impressed how rich your ideas are to produce parts in series.
Excellent!
Michael
Its another thing I learned from Kozo's book when building his New Shay design - much easier to work on longer bars and saw them apart at the end than to try and line up small parts for each operation and get them to come out the same. He uses jigs wherever possible - it was a great lesson when I was making dozens of each part for the tracks on the Lombard and Marion models.
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When the crankshaft reverses, do both engines reverse, or does one run while the other free wheels?
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When the crankshaft reverses, do both engines reverse, or does one run while the other free wheels?
Hi Kvom,
Both reverse together just like any two cylinder steam engine. The steam from the control valve goes to both steam chests, switching both between inside and outside admission, and the eccentric on each handles the timing of the piston valves.
In this picture from the CAD drawing, you can see the pipes arching from the control valve in the middle out to both cylinder steam chests on the ends:
(https://i.postimg.cc/MpcBR98y/Steering-CAD-3.jpg)
Since its a top view, it shows as one pipe - this picture you can see both pipes going to one of the cylinders. The upper pipe goes to the center of the piston valve, sending steam there makes it inside admission. The lower pipe goes to the the space below the piston valve, which has a passage up the center so it fills the space above the piston valve as well. Sending steam there makes it outside admission.
(https://i.postimg.cc/kgkbyWnL/Steering-CAD-2.jpg)
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Continuing on with the bearings and holders, the bearing blocks were sawn apart and slipped into the holders:
(https://i.postimg.cc/wTxC0Wvw/IMG-2574.jpg)
Made up a set of caps for the holders by drilling a longer bar and cutting them apart
(https://i.postimg.cc/264sXMhK/IMG-2575.jpg)
bolted up ready to start trimming
(https://i.postimg.cc/441CvCJK/IMG-2576.jpg)
trimmed the caps to length
(https://i.postimg.cc/Rh4krdTV/IMG-2577.jpg)
and trimmed the bearing sides
(https://i.postimg.cc/Fzp2hSPb/IMG-2578.jpg)
Next step is to drill the holes for the crankshaft. Yesterday I was thinking of using the four-jaw on the lathe and drilling there, but a quick test showed that was not repeatable enough, so I'll set up on the mill and drill them there instead.
-
:Love:
:drinking-41:
Don
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:Love:
:drinking-41:
Don
Thanks Don! :wine1:
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I went through a number of options for how to drill all the bearing holes to match, and settled on a finger clamp that I first made several years ago to hold all the track plates for the Lombard Log Hauler for milling/drilling. Its been modified and reused for a number of other models since then, here is once more. I milled in a new set of shallow recesses for the bearing blocks to slide into, and have them all marked so they all will go into the fixture in the same orientation. Then got the jig set in the milling vice and positioned for the first one. After that it was just a matter of loosening the top screw and swapping the parts in and out for spot drilling
(https://i.postimg.cc/0NH4Xxzn/IMG-2579.jpg)
and drilling to size
(https://i.postimg.cc/XNBRhZcC/IMG-2580.jpg)
Here they are all test fit on the crankshaft. They are a tight fit since they were drilled same size as the shaft rod, they will need a bit of lapping compound to loosen them up.
(https://i.postimg.cc/T3fBpt8V/IMG-2581.jpg)
and test fit into the engine - the assembly clicked into place perfectly - very happy with that! :cartwheel:
(https://i.postimg.cc/zG76WT59/IMG-2583.jpg)
As I mentioned previously, I have left the shaft long on the left end so I can put on a drill chuck to spin it by hand. This will be used for lapping in the bearings with some TimeSavers compound.
(https://i.postimg.cc/GppNj9m9/IMG-2584.jpg)
That will be the next task. After that, I'll take the walls off the engine so I can get the upper shaft out to remake the indicator barrel with a left hand thread rather than the current right-hand thread. That will get the indicator dial moving in the correct directions. When re-assembling everything, I'll be able to put the front worm wheel in place over the crankshaft.
:noidea: :thinking:
Hmmmm, thinking about that - I think it will make sense to make the con-rods and eccentric arms before that final assembly, its much easier to test fit them when the crankshaft is out of the machine... Lots still to go on this model: conrods, eccentric arms, pistons, valves, cylinder/valve bodies, support posts, crosshead guide plates/covers, piping. At least at this point its almost all moving parts and looking like an engine!
:cheers:
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and test fit into the engine - the assembly clicked into place perfectly - very happy with that! :cartwheel:
YES :Director: - that feels good to make that statement, doesn't it :whoohoo:
Great progress and I see that you came up with a better solution than what I could imagine before you showed yours :ThumbsUp: :cheers:
Per
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Hi Chris, last night I have tried to catch up all the postings from you and Michael about this beautiful piece of model engineering.
I am very happy also, that a piece of European engineering has found its way into the US world of model engineering.
So far, it was only me, who has done it the opposite way, by building all these beautiful American model engines designed by Doug Kelley.
Again a very special and extraordinary work, made by your elves and of course yourself.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
The shaft and bearing assembly looks great Chris!
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Thanks very much guys. This build had a start when I saw a vinrage steering engine being demonstrated at the Mystic Seaport show, I was intrigued by it since I had never heard of such a thing. Did a little seaching after the show and found just enough to understand how they worked. I mentioned that engine when describing the show here on the forum, and Michael responded with pictures of his restored engine. Given his pictures, videos, and drawings it was impossible not to build the model! I love building unique engines, not just another of the same old kit. Its fun trying to imagine what the next one might be...
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This morning got the main bearings and crankshaft lapped in. It went from a tight fit where I couldn't have the caps tightened down and still turn the shaft to turning pretty freely when tightened. I ran several rounds of the lapping compound in, tightening the caps along the way, and testing by turning by hand and loosening/tightening each cap to see which ones needed more work. A cordless variaable speed drill on the end of the shaft worked great, varying the speeds and direction, adding a little more oil occasionally and wiping off the sludge that squeezes out the joints.
(https://i.postimg.cc/WbkMFX5Y/IMG-2586.jpg)
Once I was happy with the results, I took it all apart again, cleaning everything off while keeping all the parts of each bearing group together and aligned for direction. One thing I realized partway through is that I had forgotten to drill/tap the caps for the oil cups and drill matching holes through the top bearings. I'll do that next and then get it all put back together again.
Best news is that the way I made the slots in the engine bed, made the holders and bearings as a group, and drilled the bearing holes worked perfectly, no binding or wobble in the shaft - thats a big relief for me! :whoohoo:
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Nice work Chris. That's going to be a fine engine.
Mike
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Nice work Chris. That's going to be a fine engine.
Mike
Thanks Mike! :cheers:
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👍 I'm very happy that everything worked so well.
:cheers:
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Great that your method worked so well, Chris! :popcorn:
You sure keep your work area clean! Mine never looks that tidy! ::)
Kim
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Great that your method worked so well, Chris! :popcorn:
You sure keep your work area clean! Mine never looks that tidy! ::)
Kim
Well, before I take pictures I usually vacuum out all the chips (have a shop vac with a cyclone seperator before it right next to the bench), but what you are not seeing to the side on the bench is the pile of tools, extra fasteners, clamps, shop elves, and other spare parts! :shrug:
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This afternoon got the bearing caps drilled/tapped for the oil cups, also did a little more shaping on the caps themselves at the ends. The cups were made from some 1/4" socket head screws that I drilled a #50 hole through for the oil passage (the screws are 318 stainless I think, a bit sticky, had to keep clearing chips from the drill tip and oiling to get through), then drilled the socket end out more to form the cups.
(https://i.postimg.cc/1tSqFQYv/IMG-2588.jpg)
I like how thats looking now. Good place to break for the day. Next time I'll probably start in on remaking the indicator mechanism on the upper shaft with the left hand threads like it should be.
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Its time to get the engine dismantled to remove the upper shaft and replace the indicator position parts with ones with left-hand threads. Trusty ? shop elf Elfric apparently got up early and started without me. Here are the results... :facepalm2:
(https://i.postimg.cc/4yvbnTRg/IMG-2589.jpg)
At least I was able to get the upper gear shaft out of the pile. Held one end in the vise, applied the mini torch to the other, and popped off the threaded tube that moves the rudder position indicator:
(https://i.postimg.cc/j57h078C/IMG-2590.jpg)
The other half of the equation is the threaded block that moves back and forth on that thread and holds the rack that moves the pointer:
(https://i.postimg.cc/jqyhMywF/IMG-2591.jpg)
Here it is dismantled:
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZnzxT5gH/IMG-2592.jpg)
I was going to make a new block for that, but just had another idea: re-thread the block from the current M8 thread to M10 and make an insert that is threaded the desired M8-LH... Hmmm, worth a try, would save a lot of work on a new block if it works. If not, won't be much time wasted!
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That should work.
I would hard solder the M 10 bolt.
Is the M 8 LH thread actually a so-called fine thread (M 8 x 0.75)?
Greetings Michael
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That should work.
I would hard solder the M 10 bolt.
Is the M 8 LH thread actually a so-called fine thread (M 8 x 0.75)?
Greetings Michael
The indicator shouldn't ever be under a lot of pressure, so I just used Loctite high-strength red on it (already have it made and ready to re-assemble)
The thread I picked is M8x1.0 LH - the old one was the right hand version of M8x1.0
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Here are the new parts being made for the indicator to convert to the left hand thread. First I centered up the square piece in the 4-jaw with the existing hole centered and bored it out to size for a M10 tap (forgot to take a picture of that, but you get it). Then turned a bronze insert to diameter and threaded it M10 on the outside and the new M8x1 left hand on the inside. Its amazing how many times I had to remind myself to turn it the other way from normal! The square block was screwed on with red loctite and then sawn off the bar.
(https://i.postimg.cc/g0N0zSTT/IMG-2593.jpg)
Then chucked up a stainless bar for the threaded tube. Turned/threaded the outside for the M8LH thread, and drilled the center to fit over the shaft.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Kzj8R7Xv/IMG-2594.jpg)
After drilling the center it was parted off to the same length as the old tube.
(https://i.postimg.cc/HxNs5JH0/IMG-2595.jpg)
Here are the parts ready for re-assembly. The new tube has been slipped onto the shaft, you can see it to the right of the acme threaded portion. It will be soldered in place like the old one was.
(https://i.postimg.cc/SRzQGyNB/IMG-2596.jpg)
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Thanks CNR!
I started re-assembling the engine, got most of it together now including the front worm wheel. SO many things to assemble and line up all at once! Getting the rudder indicator rack/pointer in the right position took the longest, I can loosen the rack and slip it over a tooth as needed, but its a very tight space to get the open end wrench into. :insane: Stopping there for the day, will get the rest of it all tightened up tomorrow - at least the indicator moves in the proper direction now! :cartwheel:
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YAY! :cartwheel:
That's a fiddly little thing, but one of those things you'll be happy you did and soon forget what a pain it was! :popcorn:
Kim
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Michael, another set of questions for you!
I was looking at the photos of your engine at how the connecting rods and crossheads are made, as well as the eccentrics.
The eccentric arms appear to be bronze throughout, with pinned pivot rods at the top for where they go through the bottom ends of the valve rods. Is therea bronze bushing inside the bottom of the valve rod?
On the con-rods, it appears that the upper section is all steel with the blocks around the crank pins bronze, with a steel cap on the bottom. Again, does the pin at the bottom of the piston rod have a bronze bushing around it at the center? Looks like those pivot rods are pinned through the con-rods?
On the crosshead guides that hold the bottom of the piston rod and slide on the flat plate on the vertical wall, are there bronze flat plates on that slider as well? On both sides, against both the flat plate and against the covers that are bolted on?
Thanks yet again! If you have any pictures of those parts before they were assembled that would be great to see (please dont take it apart!)
:cheers: Chris
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Hello Chris,
I have a picture of the valve rod on my mobile phone, you can see bronze bushings and also on the piston rod.
I'm not sure about the crosshead slideway.
Unfortunately I'm in Berlin until Thursday and can't access my photo collection on the computer.
Michael
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Great pictures on the bushings, thanks! That last one does look like it has a bronze plate inside the crosshead guides. Thanks!!
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So, the elves and I have it back together again!
(https://i.postimg.cc/0yzVYfFK/IMG-2600.jpg)
Elfric wants to try steering with it, but he needs a ladder to stand on...
(https://i.postimg.cc/tCSrnfSH/IMG-2599.jpg)
I told them that I would make them a catwalk to stand on, but they screamed "CAT!" , and ran off under the cabinets. :LittleDevil:
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Oh, are they so shy of cats?
It all looks great and when it moves by itself for the first time you can be proud of your work.
:cheers:
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Oh, are they so shy of cats?
It all looks great and when it moves by itself for the first time you can be proud of your work.
:cheers:
They know that cats LOVE shop elves. Especially with a little salt...
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Decided to start in on the eccentric arms. Picked through the bronze stock, and found a bar I could saw out and mill the blanks from. Here is the eccentric arm 'casting kit' (well, the raw bar is continuous 'cast') that I wound up with:
(https://i.postimg.cc/CxYSQRCN/IMG-2601.jpg)
Next time I'll start in on the actual shaping. The two smaller bars are for the bottom caps, they will be bolted to the ends of the larger bars for boring out the holes around the eccentrics.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
With the cat / elf relationship as it is, it might be useful to do a side project like a D-9 CAT dozer or 797 CAT quarry truck, just so CAT could be mentioned periodically to keep the elves in line. :Lol:
Speaking of dump trucks, how are the popcorn supplies holding up? I could send another load of premium white popcorn with the screamin jimmy dump truck if stocks are low - let me know! I got the ether ready. :cheers:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
With the cat / elf relationship as it is, it might be useful to do a side project like a D-9 CAT dozer or 797 CAT quarry truck, just so CAT could be mentioned periodically to keep the elves in line. :Lol:
Speaking of dump trucks, how are the popcorn supplies holding up? I could send another load of premium white popcorn with the screamin jimmy dump truck if stocks are low - let me know! I got the ether ready. :cheers:
I'll have to get out the little Cat-apult that I made years ago... Maybe paint their little ATV Caterpillar yellow...
Got a decent supply of popcorn, but drive that truck down here, want to see it!
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Got a good start on the eccentric arms today. Started out drilling for the side bolt holes so I can have the bottom caps attached during shaping. The cap holes were drilled/tapped 2-56, the upper holes clearance - I have learned (finally) to do them this way to make assembly a whole lot easier when the caps won't be accesible from underneath the frame. The screws will stay threaded into the caps, and the nuts can be run in from the top. All the parts were marked to keep them in matched pairs, and the parts were all set in the vise with mating faces on the back of the vise, just in case I didn't have the holes perfectly centered.
(https://i.postimg.cc/y6vzP07X/IMG-2602.jpg)
The sides of the upper arms were milled back to form the top of the section that will surround the eccentric, and also expose the face where the nuts will go in.
(https://i.postimg.cc/QxzZLs9F/IMG-2603.jpg)
The shoulders on the caps were also milled in at this point, mainly since without doing this the blocks were too thick to through-tap them.
(https://i.postimg.cc/L65F0hXd/IMG-2604.jpg)
Here are the blocks bolted together, ready for the next step, boring the hole for the eccentric. The holes will be stepped to fit over the shoulders on the eccentrics and keep the arms from sliding off the sides.
(https://i.postimg.cc/4xhksMVB/IMG-2605.jpg)
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After a great lunch session out with friends, came back into the shop to get the eccentric holes bored out. I first tried holding it in the 4-jaw, but that was not feasible due to the length of the arm, so I got it centered up on the faceplate, clamped in place, and drilled/tapped some holes to bolt them in place to drill/bore out the holes to the size of the shoulders on the cam. I was able to use the normal boring tool to cut most of the recess, it would go up to the shoulder on the far side, but the near side of the tool has a shallow angle.
(https://i.postimg.cc/FRJVkcg4/IMG-2606.jpg)
Then switched to this little internal-threading bit to turn in the recess on the inside up to the near side of the part. Still a slight angle, but close enough for some lapping compound to even it out since its a shallow shoulder.
(https://i.postimg.cc/jSsc3DKH/IMG-2607.jpg)
Here is one of them unbolted to hopefully better show the recess on the inside with the shoulders at the edges. And yes, I marked all the parts first to keep them together and oriented!
(https://i.postimg.cc/7LRNLXz9/IMG-2608.jpg)
With the cam set in place - its a slightly tight fit, will need to lap it to get a smooth sliding fit. I didn't want to take off too much with the boring tools and have to start over.
(https://i.postimg.cc/vZ3zJGHp/IMG-2610.jpg)
one set in place to show the assembly:
(https://i.postimg.cc/vmTzMC4D/IMG-2609.jpg)
So, next time I'll get the cams lapped, then start in on shaping the outsides of the pieces and get the holes drilled in the top ends.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
The eccentric followers / arms look great!
Re the screamin jimmy dump truck visit - will start collecting the 9000 gallons of McDonalds used fryer oil for a return trip with popcorn when needed. Also will start typing the noise apology letters for annoyed bystanders along the way.... :Lol:
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Got a bit sidetracked when playing on the computer, I stumbled across the collection of Herreshoff plans online at the MIT museum:
https://collections.mitmuseum.org
They have original plans from the Herreshoff company for ships, engines, all sorts of fittings, including several versions of their steam steering engines
(https://i.postimg.cc/mrbHGngJ/canvas18.jpg)
and steam windlasses
(https://i.postimg.cc/fR79psDY/canvas21.jpg)
as well as a bunch of their compound ships engines... Well worth a look if you are looking for a project!
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Nice compact engine designs! On the windlass though - double cone clutches on the sheave, without friction material, worry me a bit. If you have seen the YT vids of runaway anchors / anchor winches, they are usually a result of clutch / brake fails, and they make me real nervous.
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Nice compact engine designs! On the windlass though - double cone clutches on the sheave, without friction material, worry me a bit. If you have seen the YT vids of runaway anchors / anchor winches, they are usually a result of clutch / brake fails, and they make me real nervous.
That is just the general arrangement drawing that does not show the details of brake bands and pawls that it also has. The drawings there show plans for several different designs and ships, ranging from small yachts to medium size torpedo boats that they built for the Navy. I just picked one drawing to show whats available on the museum site, they have a LOT more.
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After playing around on the plans pages at the MIT museum, got back into the shop to get the eccentrics lapped with the arms. I made a little rod with a screw head for a key, and used the lathe to spin the eccentric. The arm block rested against the back of a turning tool in the QCTP - with the eccentric action it looked like a REALLY REALLY dull hacksaw machine! Let them spin for a while at different speeds, adding more compound and tightening the screws as it went along.
(https://i.postimg.cc/RFbm0WQK/IMG-2611.jpg)
Then cleaned up the parts, and got started shaping the big end of the arms. Started out rounding over the cap end, using the same setup on the faceplate as was used previously to bore the holes.
(https://i.postimg.cc/br7jQ45v/IMG-2612.jpg)
After several rounds of milling, here are the parts so far. The big ends are mostly done, they need some rounding on the sides of the portion between the end plates still. After that I'll start shaping the small end yoke, before moving on to the shaft of the arm. For scale, the wide part of the blocks are about 1" across.
(https://i.postimg.cc/WzFvqsXK/IMG-2613.jpg)
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I am pleased you are only lapping those straps onto their eccentrics. When I first saw the picture I had visions of the lathe jumping around if they were clamped onto a bar and you turned it on. :paranoia:
How are you planning to make sure you remove all of the lapping compound?
Jo
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I am pleased you are only lapping those straps onto their eccentrics. When I first saw the picture I had visions of the lathe jumping around if they were clamped onto a bar and you turned it on. :paranoia:
How are you planning to make sure you remove all of the lapping compound?
Jo
Yeah, I just had the side bar on the tool post there to keep it from spinning, the part was not clamped to it. The arm did oscillate back and forth like it would on the engine, with the side of the arm rubbing on the side bar. I made sure that the eccentric was not clamped too hard by the cap and could rotate in the hole before turning on the lathe!
One of the things I like about the Timesavers lapping compund is that it breaks down into finer and finer grit as it is used and can easily be flushed away, so in commercial settings often they just add more oil to dilute it away. Very different from diamond paste, which can get stuck into the metal and doesn't break down or clean off easily, continuing to abrade the metal. The Timesavers comes as a powder (4 different grits available) that you mix with a few drops of oil to make the slurry. Years ago I got their trial pack which has small tins of all four grits, these tins are tiny for a machine shop but for hobbyists like us its a lifetime supply. They make yellow and a green versions, for use on different types of metal. I usually just use the yellow one, works great on bronze and brass.
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Here we see again how Chris makes it look like in the end. Nice to see what is created from the two bronze lumps. Very good.
🍻 :cheers:
Michael
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Thanks Michael!
One thing I might do slightly different on the model is to make the pivot pin in the eccentric upper end be keyed rather than cross pinned like the original, the sides of the yoke are pretty narrow at model scale. I'll decide that when I get the rest of the arm shaped. I used a keyed pin on the Sabino model (the original had it that way too) and it worked out well, allowed me to put a thin nut on the side so the pin was easily removeable, which is important to allow disconnecting the yoke to screw the valve rod up and down for timing the engine.
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I think you can do that too. It makes adjusting the piston valves much easier.
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Some more playing around online, this time back at the National Archives site - found a complete set of plans for the steering engines in the Kearsarge class pre-dreadnought battleships (just before the Ohio engine I've been modelling).
:whoohoo:
Here is one of the sheets, scaled way down for the forum, was able to download high res versions for study.
(https://i.postimg.cc/x1TWXKg7/RG19-ALPHA-Kearsarge-BB5-Kentucky-BB6-Illinois-BB7-07.jpg)
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Nice to see some ISO Metric tapered pins, carefully hammered in :hammerbash: , to the yoke arms & pin :ThumbsUp:...... Derek
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Got the rest of the shaping done on the eccentric arms, lots of setups in the mill vise, worked my way back from the top ends to the big ends. The final rounding was done on the belt sander, to round the top ends of the yoke and a couple places on the sides where the recesses come back up to the thicker sections.
(https://i.postimg.cc/1zH2cSrv/IMG-2617.jpg)
Then back to the engine for a test fit. It turns out that when I milled the engine bed I didn't take the side walls of the trays under the eccentrics quite thin enough, thinking by looking that 'oh, thats plenty of clearance'. Wrong! :hammerbash: So, a little bit of thinning on the insides of the walls at the ends and a little touch up paint, and it all clears.
(https://i.postimg.cc/JnYFvQgJ/IMG-2622.jpg)
EdIT: NaTURally ChRis tried To tAke (Elfric, stop jummping on the shift key!) all the credit, but of course it was us shop elves who did all the work...
(https://i.postimg.cc/fLRF8PHD/IMG-2623.jpg)
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Well, someone is doing some very nice work! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
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hi , oops ..sorry got that last comment all wrong and I can now see how it all goes together !!! and lovely work as usual :praise2:
Willy
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Always the problem with painting as you go... but a little touchup and all's good! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Continuing to enjoy your build, Chris!
Kim
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It's coming along magnificently! Love the project and the guts to do it!
Can't wait to see it running!!!
Dave
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Thanks guys! I'm very pleased with how its coming along, and at a guess I'd say it could be running around the end of the year. The cylinders are a pretty complex shape, been thinking about how to do them and making notes/crumpling some of the notes and throwing them away, keeping others... The usual process!
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It's nice to see how well you did the eccentrics.
I think the connecting rods and crossheads are just routine for you.
But the cylinders are very complex. you already do
Other steering machines would not be easier to build either and the electric machine would be a bit boring. 😉
Michael
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Yeah, the cylinder shape is complex, but I have no doubt about being able to make them, just need to decide how many pieces and what order to make them in. That's a lot of the fun!
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I went back to the CAD model and rotated the crank around while watching the clearance on the eccentric arms to the engine bed, and found that there was indeed a slight interference there in the original design I did. So, I narrowed in the sides of the arms where the bolts go through, and widened the opening in the bed slightly too. For those wanting to build this model, I am attaching a new copy of those plan sheets here, plus the one of the control valve with the angle on the end of the slider that I think I had forgotten to post before.
:cheers:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Todays parts were the con-rod big ends. Started by squaring up (well, rectangularing up since its not a square!) a piece of bearing bronze rod, long enough for the four pieces needed, and drilling the bolt holes:
(https://i.postimg.cc/fTNNXmpK/IMG-2624.jpg)
Drilled/tapped matching holes in a length of steel bar for the bottom plates.
(https://i.postimg.cc/0jp1FyMD/IMG-2625.jpg)
Cut all the pieces from the longer bars, and assembled the two blocks
(https://i.postimg.cc/L84FQRHg/IMG-2626.jpg)
which were then trimmed to length. The bottom caps are slightly longer than the bearings
(https://i.postimg.cc/vmcFMzxQ/IMG-2627.jpg)
Each was then centered up for drilling/boring the crank pin holes
(https://i.postimg.cc/7YnyNbyy/IMG-2628.jpg)
then again to turn the outer portions of each side to form the protruding parts of the bearings
(https://i.postimg.cc/G3YRHq7t/IMG-2629.jpg)
Here are the parts so far, test fit on a length of the same bar the crank pins were made from
(https://i.postimg.cc/qvmV9YRb/IMG-2630.jpg)
Next time I'll start on the small ends and the arms, which will be made from one piece of steel rod...
It will be interesting to see what the weather does in the next few hours here - had very high pressure yesterday now moving out to a very low pressure area, so the winds are starting to pick up. They are expecting us to get several hours of 50 to 60 MPH winds as the front goes through. The generator may get a workout!
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Today I started in on the upper ends of the con rods, with a piece of rectangular 303 stainless steel. The ends of both bars were milled down to the final width/thickness first.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sX2pTTxR/IMG-2631.jpg)
Now for a great example of stress in rolled steel bars! I routinely stress relieve brass bars that are going to be shaped down the sides or split lengthwise to keep them from going banana shaped, for brass its easy (an hour soak in a 500F oven). For the stainless, it would take a heat treating furnace since it would be much higher temps for long periods of time. So, if its a bar that will be thinned down, I'll take some of alternating sides to sneak up on the final thickness. If its going to be a complex shape, like a cylinder block with steam chest on one side, I'll go to the trouble of using 1144 Stressproof Steel, which comes already stress relieved. And here is why - these bars were cut down the sides on the bandsaw to remove the bulk of the material and save time turning/milling all that material. You can see how the sides have warped! This is NOT from heat while sawing, they stayed cool, this is due to the stresses induced into the bars when they are rolled to shape in the factory, compressing the metal on the sides more than in the middle.
(https://i.postimg.cc/s2sPhjRx/IMG-2632.jpg)
The middle section was left thick so I could mill to final thickness and straightness, and take the bottom end flanges to size too.
(https://i.postimg.cc/0NnYGT8f/IMG-2633.jpg)
Also drilled the bottom flanges for the screws coming up from the bearing blocks
(https://i.postimg.cc/9Q3YcP8G/IMG-2634.jpg)
The parts so far:
(https://i.postimg.cc/7hGSkbSs/IMG-2635.jpg)
Next up will be to turn the middle section round on the lathe. The upper ends will get milled to form the yokes to go over the bottom ends of the piston rods. These bars are long at the upper ends still, to leave a place to grip them while shaping the yokes.
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Great example of the banannafication of a piece of stock!
What is it? Only 2-3 inches long? Shows just how much internal stress there is in that cold rolled steel!
Kim
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Great example of the banannafication of a piece of stock!
What is it? Only 2-3 inches long? Shows just how much internal stress there is in that cold rolled steel!
Kim
Yup, those cuts were only 1-3/4" long. Over the years I've noticed that it varies a lot piece to piece of bar stock, some warp badly, others hardly at all, a lot probably depends on the processes in the factory where each was made. Best to assume that the bar will warp and cut both sides alternately, and take the final cuts as shallow ones to finish the shaping.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
The guys at the steel distributor near me have shipped Bananium a few times when I ordered hot rolled steel.... :Lol:
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This an amazing machine! :cheers:
Boy that steel really warped a lot.
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Thanks guys!
More on the con-rods this morning, started with turning the shaft on the lathe
(https://i.postimg.cc/BnFfm1nh/IMG-2636.jpg)
then drilling the cross pin holes
(https://i.postimg.cc/xdSDhTk9/IMG-2637.jpg)
and chain drilled the holes for the open sides of the yokes
(https://i.postimg.cc/HsRC0tdc/IMG-2638.jpg)
then connected the dots and took the slots to width
(https://i.postimg.cc/c4rS8zyG/IMG-2639.jpg)
To round off the yoke ends, made a little arbor by drilling/tapping a hole in the end, and milling a shallow slot for the yokes to fit into and keep from turning. Then milled the corners off, spinning the chuck on the rotary table
(https://i.postimg.cc/KYrS2SLB/IMG-2640.jpg)
A little cleanup filing, and then will make a slot for the key to keep the pin from spinning...
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Rod's looking great Chris! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Chris, thanks for showing.
Now I know how to make the connecting rod on my Nicholas. It looks good the way you do it. 👍
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Chris, thanks for showing.
Now I know how to make the connecting rod on my Nicholas. It looks good the way you do it. 👍
:cheers: :cheers:
Rod's looking great Chris! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
:cheers: :cheers:
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More trimming and filing on the con rods, here is what they look like so far
(https://i.postimg.cc/j5bSXGnC/IMG-2641.jpg)
They need some more finishing work, and they will be ready for use. I think its time to work out how I am going to make the cylinders, need to spend some time working out the order of things to shape them, they are a complex shape and I dont want to get stuck needing to trim something and not having a good way to hold it. These cylinders and valve chambers have blind bores, they don't go through the bottom except for the rods. I much prefer being able to run all the way through with the boring tools, so I am thinking of making screw-in plugs for the bottom ends of the holes, a lot like I did for the Stanley engine. I have a Sherline short lathe bed set up for thread cutting, and can do a one-off thread for the plugs since it won't matter if its a standard size or not, just need matching threads on the plugs and bores, so I can do a large size fine pitch thread.
Recently I mentioned the plans I found at the National Archives for the steering engine on the Kearsarge battleship from the ship class just before the Ohio class that Dave gave me plans for. Been looking through those sheets, and I'm really glad I built this engine first, otherwise I would have no clue how the parts on the Kearsarge one went together - they have one sheet of general arrangements, all the other sheets are individual parts and very few subassembly drawings. Will need to get that engine into the build queue (which keeps getting longer!) One model I've wanted to build since I was a kid is the steam hammer like the Stuart one - I remember seeing it in the print catalog (remember those?) way back when, and think it would be a very interesting one to make. I found out a couple years ago that Stuart Turner sells the plan pages for their models seperately from the kits, and had purchased a copy for the steam hammer. Last month I put in an order for just the column casting from them, its the largest part of the kit, and would be tough to make with my tools. Hoping to get that in January - they said they did not have any in stock, and had never cast that one so they are setting up the patterns they have for it to run off some. Guess that happens for a low-sales kit when the company changes hands. Should be about the right timing for after the steering engine is done - once the engine itself is done I still want to make a stand that includes a deck section and a partial rudder for it to turn back and forth.
Anyway, off to lunch then time to do some detailed plotting and scheming on how to make the cylinders!
:cheers:
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Awesome Dog……. :Love:
:cheers:
Don
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Okay, partway there. I dug through the metal stocks, and found a nice piece of 1144 stressproof that is 2.35" diameter and long enough to get both cylinders out of. They need to be held with the bottom side out so I can machine the threads for the bottom plates as I described earlier, and be able to bore through the blocks for the pistons and valves. Going back to a trick I've used in the past, the block will be held on the faceplate with two sets of holes, each set centered on one of the bores, and the holes the same distance out from the centerline. This allows the part to be flipped around and re-bolted to the faceplate with the other bore centered, both for boring and for milling the outside of the part concentric to the bores. Here is a picture showing what I am going to do:
(https://i.postimg.cc/nz1ZFrRG/Faceplates.jpg)
The orange cylinder block (gee, its all done! ... nope, lots to do to get there! ) starts out as a taller version of the blue cylinder. I'll slab off the sides of the blue cylinder and drill the bolt holes, and drill matching bolt holes in the faceplate. In the picture the faceplate is shown in two positions, one red, one purple. Same faceplate, just rotated 180 degrees, all the holes are symmetric. In the red position, the valve bore is centered, in the purple position the cylinder is centered. I checked the overhang on the red position, and the blue cylinder will just clear the lathe bed - I may mill that edge back to increase the clearance, if too small then chips on the lathe bed will jam underneath.
This should let me access all sides of the block for milling the outside, except for the top flange which just needs facing and drilling for the cover bolts. That last thing can be done with the block held on expanding arbors through the bores. For turning the bores I like to use the lathe - obviously this will need counterweights on the empty side of the faceplate to balance it. On the mill, both the horizontal and vertical rotary tables will be used to position it. This is all pretty similar to what I did on the Stanley engine block. SHOULD work here too!
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Well, one slight change!
That bar of 2.35" steel just didn't feel or look quite right for 1144 Stressproof, so I did some checking back in my archives. Turns out that is the diameter of bar that I bought about 10 years ago to build the wheels on my Kozo New Shay, and that was the first time I used 12L14 steel. Wonderful stuff to machine, but I don't like how it takes a surface rust so easy.
So, instead of that bar, I am going to use a length of 2.75" diameter 1144 that I also have left over from a more recent project, its a little longer so I can make the bottom section that bolts to the faceplate a little thicker, which will help with clearance to the mill headstock from the faceplate. It means a thicker chunk to slab off the sides of the starting bar, but it all works out fine in the end.
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As Maxwell Smart would say - "ah, the old two level asymmetrical baseplate fixture trick, eh?" :Lol: :cheers:
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As Maxwell Smart would say - "ah, the old two level asymmetrical baseplate fixture trick, eh?" :Lol: :cheers:
Shop elves, please whack him with a cone of silence! And PUNt him across the street. Hmmm, and get me a cone with chocolate ice cream! :Lol:
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The lineup of cylinders is great!
This will definitely be a feast for the milling machine and the workshop elves can stuff shavings into their pockets again.
:cheers:
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Thanks Michael, hopefully they pick up all the swarf for their collection so I don't have to vacuum it up! :Lol:
I've adjusted the CAD version for the different size bar stock and printed out a drawing with the measurements needed, mainly for hole positions and the iniitial bandsaw cuts. Also am doing a 3D print of the part on the base, which I've learned from previous projects comes in handy for keeping track of which side of the part I am doing operations on, especially in cases like this where the two cylinders are mirror images of each other, one with the valve on the left, one on the right.
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The 3D print of the cylinder/base finished printing while I was off at lunch with friends, here it is with a small end mill next to it to show the step I added in the side so the cutter can reach in to the edges of the cylinder:
(https://i.postimg.cc/fT0Z2m11/IMG-2642.jpg)
and on top of the round bar they will be cut from:
(https://i.postimg.cc/T3MxZh61/IMG-2643.jpg)
This printed piece will be very handy in keeping track of which side is which, and help in plotting out what cutter can do which feature, remembering (I hope) along the way that I need to make one like this and one mirrored. First step will be to spend some time with the bandsaw cutting the two pieces and taqking the slabs off the sides to square it up, saving time on the mill.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Great technique to use a 3D printed mockup to check machining clearances and approaches etc. One of the most useful ways to use a 3D printer yet it's not mentioned much. :cheers:
(typing to you from the cone of silence) :Lol:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Great technique to use a 3D printed mockup to check machining clearances and approaches etc. One of the most useful ways to use a 3D printer yet it's not mentioned much. :cheers:
I started sending the files out back during the Marion build, it was a great help in making sure I was working on the proper side of parts with complex shapes, its so easy to mix up directions from 2d drawings. Now with my own printer, its really quick to do.
(typing to you from the cone of silence) :Lol:
Whats that, can't hear you... :Jester:
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What? :Lol:
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Very cool use of 3D printing, Chris! Now that I've got me one of them I may have to try that! :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
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Very cool use of 3D printing, Chris! Now that I've got me one of them I may have to try that! :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
Today I started cutting down the big bar on the bandsaw, and also was doing some pseudo casting fondling, trying to work out how to make some of the shapes on the cylinder by looking at the 3D printed one. Most of it is fairly straightforward, but some features require some more pondering - the printed version is great for working this kind of thing out!
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Very cool use of 3D printing, Chris! Now that I've got me one of them I may have to try that! :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
You could have printed the boiler formers you made from wood :noidea:
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Very cool use of 3D printing, Chris! Now that I've got me one of them I may have to try that! :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
You could have printed the boiler formers you made from wood :noidea:
They do have wood infused filaments... Don't know if they would hold up to the hammering or not. Never thought of that one!
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They do have wood infused filaments... Don't know if they would hold up to the hammering or not. Never thought of that one!
I doubt that they'd stand up to hammering, even if you printed them with 100% infill. The impact shock would probably cause them to de-laminate. 3d printed parts HAVE been used successfully for press dies in limited runs though. Using both resin and filament printers.
Don
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Very cool use of 3D printing, Chris! Now that I've got me one of them I may have to try that! :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
You could have printed the boiler formers you made from wood :noidea:
I actually considered that! but it seemed that plastic printed forms might not hold up to the pounding abuse too well? I guess you could print them solid, but that seems like a LOT of filament! I'd be interested to know if anyone's done that before and what their experience was.
Kim
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The wood is a whole lot cheaper than the filament! And oak will take the impacts all day.
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Okay, back onto the cylinder blocks. I got the blanks sawn off from the larger bar of 1144 stressproof, and slabbed off the sides with the bandsaw to cut down on the milling work. You can see the stacks of sawn off chunks behind the blocks. I stayed a little outside the layout lines since the saw is not quite a precision cutter.
(https://i.postimg.cc/BbsNzMfZ/IMG-2644.jpg)
Then set up on the mill to square up the blocks and take them to size...
(https://i.postimg.cc/WznScgsG/IMG-2645.jpg)
Next up will be to lay out and drill/countersink the screw holes in the flange on the bottom. Matching holes will need to be drilled/tapped in the faceplate, all carefully centered.
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Geez Chris,
I wish I could work as fast as you. :praise2: :praise2: Having an indoor workshop must help.
We are currently having a cold spell over here, lots of the white stuff. My unheated outside workshop has little appeal at the moment. :ThumbsDown:
Mike
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Geez Chris,
I wish I could work as fast as you. :praise2: :praise2: Having an indoor workshop must help.
We are currently having a cold spell over here, lots of the white stuff. My unheated outside workshop has little appeal at the moment. :ThumbsDown:
Mike
Thanks Mike. I really think having an indoor shop is a huge help and ups fun time in the shop, I can wander back and forth between other things around the house with just a few steps, temperature and humidity are same as the rest of the house. Its on the ground floor in the back corner, so don't even need stairs to get there.
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Quiz time!
I was looking through the plans from the Kearsarge battleship steering engine, and spotted something that I think is a vintage 1897 brain fart. Whats wrong with these parts, clues are in the arrows... (these are three snippets from the plans pasted into on image to show here)The part by the green arrow goes in the slot where the red arrow is, the assembly shown by the blue arrow. A prize of 3 free shop gnomes (sorry, not elves) to the first to spot it...
(https://i.postimg.cc/Hx1fp01R/Plan-Goof.jpg)
:facepalm2:
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I can't read it properly.
Is the inside diameter of the ring smaller than the outside diameter of the groove?
But that would be too easy now?!
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The only obvious wrong thing to me - is that the 'Green Part' is shown upside down ....
Per
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It'll assemble beautifully if the ring part 148 is made of rubber. Or they'd need a BIG pair of pliers I think... :Lol:
148 won't pass over the outer ring of 147.
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yes cnr6400, you recognized it.
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It'll assemble beautifully if the ring part 148 is made of rubber. Or they'd need a BIG pair of pliers I think... :Lol:
148 won't pass over the outer ring of 147.
We have the winner! Made of metal, its impossible to assemble. :facepalm:
CNR, great news, you win 3 shop gnomes! Um, not really great news, they'll be stealing all the nice shiny parts and tools out of your shop to line their nest... Sorry! :lolb:
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Fantastic! ..... er......gnomes, eh? Well, I didn't like that nice finish on those parts anyway! Thanks Chris. :cheers:
PS do we know what the shipyard that actually built Kearsarge did to remedy this little hoo ha? I've thought of a few ways but just wondered how the real thing was done. Visualize the foreman reviewing the drawings - "why those :cussing: :cussing: :cussing: :cussing: :cussing: :cussing: :cussing:" :paranoia: and then a quick visit to the design office :slap: :Lol:
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was the part cut at the green arrow when assembled in the groove would hold can place like when you just have small shoes to fit the groove
not a full circle. It would be in two pieces.
john
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was the part cut at the green arrow when assembled in the groove would hold can place like when you just have small shoes to fit the groove
not a full circle. It would be in two pieces.
john
No - the plans clearly show that there is a cut where the bottom green arrow is, and its solid where it goes by the top green arrow. There are other views I didn't show that confirm this.
I'm sure that when they went to build it someone got a call, and they had to redo it in two halves with a bolt flange on both top and bottom, as you describe.
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Fantastic! ..... er......gnomes, eh? Well, I didn't like that nice finish on those parts anyway! Thanks Chris. :cheers:
PS do we know what the shipyard that actually built Kearsarge did to remedy this little hoo ha? I've thought of a few ways but just wondered how the real thing was done. Visualize the foreman reviewing the drawings - "why those :cussing: :cussing: :cussing: :cussing: :cussing: :cussing: :cussing: " :paranoia: and then a quick visit to the design office :slap: :Lol:
No details in the archives about the actual build process, on a ship that huge I'm sure there were multiple goofs in the original plans that had to be corrected in the shipyard.
For reference, this is the ship - BB5 Kearsarge, sailed as part of the 'Great White Fleet', it was later converted to a crane ship and served in WW-II. The technology of warships was changing amazingly fast back in those days, many ships only lasted a handful of years.
(https://i.postimg.cc/bw4twgNz/USS-Kearsarge-BB5-in-great-white-fleet-1908.jpg)
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I find all this history absolutely fascinating; it adds so much more to a build record. It puts everything in context
Mike
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I find all this history absolutely fascinating; it adds so much more to a build record. It puts everything in context
Mike
Definitely! It was amazing to see the steering engines like the one my model is based on still running on the river steamers in Michael's videos. This Kearsarge one is a lot larger since its for a much larger ship, the pistons for it are 15" diameter, and according to the plans the whole steering engine system was over 16 tons, including the screw driven tiller system and the telemotor, which is a electric/hydraulic motor that is like a remote servo to spin the input shaft on the steering motor. They list out six different systems for the steering engine, with a table showing which clutch has to be in which position to use any one of the backup systems. Amazing redundancy but critical for a warship. On the river steamer, there were just two options.
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Fantastic! ..... er......gnomes, eh? Well, I didn't like that nice finish on those parts anyway! Thanks Chris. :cheers:
PS do we know what the shipyard that actually built Kearsarge did to remedy this little hoo ha? I've thought of a few ways but just wondered how the real thing was done. Visualize the foreman reviewing the drawings - "why those :cussing: :cussing: :cussing: :cussing: :cussing: :cussing: :cussing: " :paranoia: and then a quick visit to the design office :slap: :Lol:
No details in the archives about the actual build process, on a ship that huge I'm sure there were multiple goofs in the original plans that had to be corrected in the shipyard.
For reference, this is the ship - BB5 Kearsarge, sailed as part of the 'Great White Fleet', it was later converted to a crane ship and served in WW-II. The technology of warships was changing amazingly fast back in those days, many ships only lasted a handful of years.
(https://i.postimg.cc/bw4twgNz/USS-Kearsarge-BB5-in-great-white-fleet-1908.jpg)
The OHIO was stretched at the last minute because the same shipyard was building a bigger and better one for the Russians in the slip next to it. The US Navy freaked out, and stretched BB12 and upped the power from 2 5000 HP engines to 2 8000 HP engines that Chris is modeling My original build plans show BOTH engines....but she ended up with the 8000 HP engines.
Freidman talks about it in his book.
Dave
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Dave, Freidman did a couple of books on battleships, which do you have?
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Hmnmmm I own it, but it's not to hand at the moment.. Taking care of my daughter at the moment....she got my flu.....kinda bad. I'll dig it up this weekend after the "festivities"....
Dave
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This morning the mounting holes in the cylinder blocks and faceplate were all drilled/countersunk/tapped as needed, both blocks bolt in place with no wiggle (measured the diameter of the SHCS's that I'm using to get the clearance holes down tight on them, didn't depend on the screw thread tables since I know factory made screws do vary slightly). Here is a shot of the two blocks, one on the faceplate in the cylinder-centered position. I've marked the two blocks for which side is which since they need to be mirror images of each other, also when I was drilling the mounting holes I put dimples in the top face to mark the bore centers, that will be handy for layout of the shapes.
(https://i.postimg.cc/gkN4zqqT/IMG-2647.jpg)
So, next time I can start making swarf on the cylinders! :cartwheel:
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Chris hurry, you have to give first aid to one of your workshop elves. He has injured himself and is writhing in pain.
I'm curious how the blocks will change.
Michael
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On the original engine, the cylinders were also marked several times so that they are not confused.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Chris hurry, you have to give first aid to one of your workshop elves. He has injured himself and is writhing in pain.
I'm curious how the blocks will change.
Michael
I told him NOT to try and lift the engine block by himself! :lolb:
I am still working out the order of operations on the blocks, will need to make a list to keep it all straight in my mind. I think I'll probably do the outsides of both blocks first, then bore them for the piston and valve. Or the other way around. Not decided yet!
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On the original engine, the cylinders were also marked several times so that they are not confused.
Its a lesson learned early on - parts that were machined the same and should be interchangeable are not always interchangeable!
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Was about to start marking up the top/sides of the blocks for the cylinders, when I realized that there was an easier and faster way to do the top circles than getting out the compass, adjusting, testing, readjusting, hoping that the point was in the center, etc. Just bolt the thing onto the faceplate and let the lathe scribe the circles!
(https://i.postimg.cc/dtmzcx1P/IMG-2648.jpg)
That also reminded me to knock the corners off the one end so that it could clear the ways when in valve-centered position! :wallbang:
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Let the ka thunk ka thunk ka thunk begin! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Let the ka thunk ka thunk ka thunk begin! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Hopefully no kathunkas, all the outside cutting will be on the mill and rotary table, and the boring wont be interrupted cuts, so I am hoping just for a lot of whirring sounds! :Lol:
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Starting to remove the bulk of the excess material from the blocks, removing the areas at the corners first:
(https://i.postimg.cc/26wq19sZ/IMG-2649.jpg)
This will get the blocks down to where it is easier to turn it on the rota4ry table and shape the curved areas. The flanges and gussets around the mounting blocks make it all a little tricky, lots to keep track of. I'm really glad I made the 3D printed version for reference.
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Both blocks had that same first corner removed, remembering to keep them mirror images for the left/right cylinders
(https://i.postimg.cc/qvWwMgr3/IMG-2650.jpg)
then started in on the second corner and across one side, stopping short of where the front mounting flanges angle out. For now, I am staying outside of the largest diameter in the profile, the cylinder top flange.
(https://i.postimg.cc/bvbTG8YF/IMG-2651.jpg)
Progress so far:
(https://i.postimg.cc/g2x4W8Cp/IMG-2652.jpg)
Next will do the same on the remaining back corner, then probably will cut back around the cylinder mount flange, in the front on the last picture, remembering to go around the gusset that angle back in to the cylinder.
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Great work Chris. Especially in stainless.
gbritnell
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Great work Chris. Especially in stainless.
gbritnell
Thanks George! These two blocks are 1144 Stressproof steel, not my usual 303 stainless. Cuts a lot like the 303.
Just did one more section, taking the rest of the afternoon to get a batch of Christmas cookies baked... Yum!
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I suspect that your demonstrated expertise in wood carving has been very helpful in visualizing the sequence of operations needed to bring a complex shape out of a block of metal.
Any truth to that?
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I suspect that your demonstrated expertise in wood carving has been very helpful in visualizing the sequence of operations needed to bring a complex shape out of a block of metal.
Any truth to that?
Very likely. In woodcarving (or stone, whatever material) the task is to see the horse (wolf, person, eagle, whatever) inside the block and remove everything that's not the horse. Its been made a joke, but its really true. Same on these cylinders!
A good carver can look at an odd shaped chunk of wood, and see the running wolf in it.
:cheers:
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More nibbling away at the cylinder blocks...
(https://i.postimg.cc/4xbNQfbh/IMG-2654.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/7LKHjKRH/IMG-2655.jpg)
Here is where they are at the moment, one more session should get them to the point where I'll switch to using the rotary table.
(https://i.postimg.cc/MG6ZsCd3/IMG-2656.jpg)
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looks very good 👍
At first glance at the last picture I thought you removed a bit of the curve (flange) too much!
But 🤭 that's the lower part of the cylinder. I think it takes a lot of concentration to make something like this. Enjoy the cookies if the workshop elves leave you some.
Michael
:cheers:
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looks very good 👍
At first glance at the last picture I thought you removed a bit of the curve (flange) too much!
But 🤭 that's the lower part of the cylinder. I think it takes a lot of concentration to make something like this. Enjoy the cookies if the workshop elves leave you some.
Michael
:cheers:
If it wasn't for the printed part I would have made a couple of mistakes already.
Got the cookies baked yesterday, adding the icing this afternoon. The elves are locked in the safe! :LittleDevil:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Hi "C" , looking good and slowly getting finished ...
Willy
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I really admire how you block everything out like that. Great to see it step by step! :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Thanks for following along guys!
No doubt there are many ways this could be done. My reasoning for starting like this was it seemed like the best way to remove the bulk of the steel was taking square passes in the vise before switching to light cuts with smaller end mills on the rotary table, which holds well but not quite as well as the vise. Also this way it was easy to make layout marks and mill up close to them. On the rounding passes there will be enough steel out of the way that it will be possible to get in with the calipers and measure diameters.
A five axis cnc machine probably would have been done days ago, but the manual cutting is the fun part for me. The 3d printer is very useful, but no where near the fun of the hand cutting, thats the sculptor in me showing through!
:cheers:
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lot of concentration in these milling !
I'm sure I'll end up with a left handed part instead of the right handed one...
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lot of concentration in these milling !
I'm sure I'll end up with a left handed part instead of the right handed one...
As long as the right handed one comes out looking like the left handed one too! :insane:
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The roughing out operations are now done on the cylinder blocks:
(https://i.postimg.cc/XJLL6x1x/IMG-2657.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/xdKgt9Kw/IMG-2658.jpg)
Time to start on the finer milling with the rotary table!
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZR4HQXHC/IMG-2660.jpg)
Going to break here for the day and start on that fresh tomorrow... :wine1:
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Nice job on the roughing Chris! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Look forward to seeing the Rotary (table) Club meeting results!
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Nice job on the roughing Chris! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Look forward to seeing the Rotary (table) Club meeting results!
As long as the Rotary Club doesn't change to the Lions Club and bite me in the butt! :Lol:
Side note Jeff, the printer is working on the redesigned parts for that other project I sent you pictures of, first set does the job so rest are queued up!
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That's a lot of really nice carving, Chris! :popcorn: :popcorn:
The RT work will really make them look the part.
Kim
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:Lol: :cheers:
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Nice metal chewing Dog………. :Love:
:cheers:
Don
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Been gnawing away at the cylinder blocks on the rotary table this morning, started with the largest diameter, the section up at the top rim (closest to the faceplate)
(https://i.postimg.cc/B6pKZBPv/IMG-2661.jpg)
then stepped down to the ring under the flange, then the diameter of the rest of the body. I have the end mill set so the back edge is on the centerline of rotation for most of the work, switching to the front edge to get to the far sides of places like the gussets above the mounting pads. Final cuts on the T section and around the gussets took some 3D Etch-A-Sketch work!
(https://i.postimg.cc/j2jJDny4/IMG-2662.jpg)
Here is one block trimmed to diameter around the cylinder end, other is ready to start. I'll do the same operations on both, then move on to shaping around the valve ends of the blocks.
(https://i.postimg.cc/NFP2mG4q/IMG-2663.jpg)
:cheers:
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It's taking more and more forms!
And I think the structure will come out later in matte black color.
Keep it up Chris.
(I envy you an always warm workshop)
Michael 🍻
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Thanks Michael!
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Nice RT work there, Chris! :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Continued with the rotary table nibbling, got the valve ends taken down as well. The blocks sticking up on top of the valve cylinder will be pads for the steam pipes.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sD8r63Y2/IMG-2664.jpg)
Back over to the mill vise to drill the mounting plate holes and then back to the horizontal rotab to finish shaping the 'feet' for the mounting bolts
(https://i.postimg.cc/pLFt33CJ/IMG-2665.jpg)
A little more nibbling needed on the gussets, then I think it will be time to start boring the cylinders...
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You got that down patt!……. :Love:
:cheers:
Don
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You got that down patt!……. :Love:
:cheers:
Don
Well, almost, there were a couple places where I traversed too far, but nothing structural and I can patch those boo-boos with some epoxy!
:cheers:
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I enjoy watching the metal sculptor with wide eyes. 👀
:cheers: :cheers:
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I enjoy watching the metal sculptor with wide eyes. 👀
:cheers: :cheers:
Thanks Michael! Lots of years of wood and stone carving were good practice for this kind of work!
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Agreed - you do make it look like it is very easy Chris :ThumbsUp:
I do know what you use to help you and how - but I can't help wonder how many times I would have 'Mirrored stuff in my Mind' -> ruined part .... :thinking:
Per
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Agreed - you do make it look like it is very easy Chris :ThumbsUp:
I do know what you use to help you and how - but I can't help wonder how many times I would have 'Mirrored stuff in my Mind' -> ruined part .... :thinking:
Per
Easy way to find out, build one of these engines!
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Cylinder work looks great!
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Well, almost, there were a couple places where I traversed too far, but nothing structural and I can patch those boo-boos with some epoxy!
That's the advantage of using stress-proof steel. Boo-boos don't stress you out.
Cylinders are looking great! :ThumbsUp:
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That's a mighty fine bit of whittling! Always impressed with your progress Chris!
Dave
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:popcorn: :popcorn:
Well, almost, there were a couple places where I traversed too far, but nothing structural and I can patch those boo-boos with some epoxy!
That's the advantage of using stress-proof steel. Boo-boos don't stress you out.
Cylinders are looking great! :ThumbsUp:
Not sure stress proof steel wouldn't do it for me - I'd need stress proof nerves! And those I ain't got :Lol:
Kim
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Splendid carving :praise2: :praise2: :wine1:
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Thanks everyone! :cheers:
The last carving was done on the outside of the cylinder blocks with a couple different small ball-end mill cutters to shape the gussets and the areas betweent he cylinder and valve. Some of the fine details on the original engine were too small to do on this scale, so things were just blended in.
(https://i.postimg.cc/FKQK9wrN/IMG-2666.jpg)
Then, after some smoothing with a small round grindstone bit in the flex-shaft carver, its finally time to bore out the cylinders and valves! The first block was bolted back on the faceplate, and a starter hole drilled all the way through.
(https://i.postimg.cc/90SWsng3/IMG-2667.jpg)
Then used several boring bars, increasing in size as the hole was opened up, to bore out the cylinder through the block:
(https://i.postimg.cc/T1hd769q/IMG-2668.jpg)
Now, I can hear some of you that took a close look at the plans, and Michael who has the original machine and knows it best, are thinking "Why the swarf is he boring all the way through, thats supposed to be a blond hole open only at the top end!" No worries, there is method to my madness. I don't like doing blind holes in cylinders, too hard to get things even all the way in and get it lapped smooth along the length. So, what I am going to do is bore through, then single-point thread the bottom end and make a plug with the valve gland that will screw into the base. I did a similar thing on the Stanley engine, worked out quite well. Since I have the cylinder bore lined up perfectly on the first block (since it is still attached to the faceplate), I'll move the faceplate and block over to the other lathe bed I leave set up for threading, and do that operation next. Then, I'll make the plug and thread it using the normal lathe chuck, part it off and thread it in place, and drill the valve rod and gland holes in it, all while still attached to the faceplate. After all that, I'll swap to the other cylinder block and go through the same process there. It will take a while, but the results should be good. I won't loctite the plug in place yet, since I want to be able to put the cylinder on an arbor to drill the top cover mounting holes after the cylinder is parted off from the base block. Lots to keep track of, but its all planned out - otherwise, trying to hold and align the cylinder block from the outside would a nightmare.
Thanks for following along!!
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:popcorn: :popcorn:
You have quite a plan here, Chris! Enjoying following along and watching you execute on that plan!
Kim
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:popcorn: :popcorn:
You have quite a plan here, Chris! Enjoying following along and watching you execute on that plan!
Kim
:cheers: :cheers:
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I like the bore through then plug idea. :ThumbsUp:
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I think Chris makes the decision to completely pierce the cylinders.
Nobody sees this later and it is much easier to work on the tread. There are also some transverse holes for the steam and can certainly be better controlled.
Super 👍 :cheers:
Michael
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I think Chris makes the decision to completely pierce the cylinders.
Nobody sees this later and it is much easier to work on the tread. There are also some transverse holes for the steam and can certainly be better controlled.
Super 👍 :cheers:
Michael
Yes, it does make the lower steam passages much easier, they can be drilled from the end of the cylinder as normal.
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The plan has worked out great so far. Here is the sequence I did on the first cylinder block. Both were already bored for the cylinder, so I set up the first one for threading the lower end for the plug. The gears were set up for 40 tpi threads, nice fine thread so it doesn't use too much depthj from the side walls but at almost 3/4" diameter is still plenty strong. The Sherline uses a hand-cranked set of gears that drive the long axis leadscrew.
(https://i.postimg.cc/9FPbt810/IMG-2670.jpg)
Here is a closeup of the threading done on the inside of the bore. I took careful notes of the settings and depth so I can duplicate it on the other cylinder block.
(https://i.postimg.cc/fbqBSVCv/IMG-2669.jpg)
With the internal threading done I set up a piece of stainless roundbar in the 4-jaw and turned it to the starting diameter, then threaded the outside of that. Did a long enough section that I can get both plugs out of it. Aside from being a 3/4" bar to start, and not hollow, it looks a lot like a piece of plumbing pipe!
(https://i.postimg.cc/bJKgL4KD/IMG-2671.jpg)
After a couple of tries matching it to the internal thread, I had a good fit between the two pieces. This is a one-off (well, two-off) thread size, so I snuck up on the final cut depth and trial fit them, going deeper on the cut a couple times.
(https://i.postimg.cc/8PgwvQRx/IMG-2672.jpg)
The first plug was parted off from the longer bar, leaving a stub sticking up from the threaded portion to make the packing gland from.
(https://i.postimg.cc/dVqBW2SB/IMG-2674.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/QNT0VxTp/IMG-2675.jpg)
To make it easier to handle for the next operations, I milled some flats on the side of the gland section, when round it was very hard to grip to turn it into the cylinder, and I didn't want to get it stuck and mar it up with pliers.
(https://i.postimg.cc/mkCwn8sd/IMG-2676.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/TwyQVTHv/IMG-2677.jpg)
With it threaded fully in to place (with the cut threads rather than tapped, the bottom end of the threads are a hard stop rather than the taper that the tap would have left. If there was a tap this size, that is. Put the faceplate back on the lathe, and drilled/counterbored for the piston rod and o-ring. This is why I wanted to do the cylinders one at a time, to keep it all centered on the bored bore ;) .
(https://i.postimg.cc/jSZhBDpr/IMG-2678.jpg)
Test fit of the o-ring and piston rod material
(https://i.postimg.cc/wBMkz6zR/IMG-2679.jpg)
Back over to the mill on the rotary table to drill the holes for the gland mounting screws. These holes do not go all the way through the plug.
(https://i.postimg.cc/6QPf5D6j/IMG-2680.jpg)
Took another piece of roundbar, drilled the center hole on the lathe, and drilled the clearance holes - had left the mill in the same position as for drilling the plug holes so these holes match the others.
(https://i.postimg.cc/tTVt12YX/IMG-2681.jpg)
Then milled the sides down to shape the flange on the gland. Blurry picture, sorry!
(https://i.postimg.cc/j206yP7y/IMG-2683.jpg)
Parted off the gland piece, and tapped the holes in the plug:
(https://i.postimg.cc/qqsswqsS/IMG-2685.jpg)
One more operation, mill the sides of the plug down to match the gland:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Yq7f9NkH/IMG-2686.jpg)
Giving the finished plug and gland pieces:
(https://i.postimg.cc/kMKvq10s/IMG-2687.jpg)
That all worked great, very happy with the sequence, so next I'll do it all again on the second cylinder. First, lunch!
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It does look like your plan went really well. That thread cutting attachment for the Sherline is something I rather envy. I did add a lead screw to my Taig as an alternate means of carriage feed, but haven't given any thought (yet) to the idea of adapting or designing/building something to allow threading. Usually at the sizes we're working taps & dies are better suited, but you've just shown a good example of the "exception" when almost nothing else will do.
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That's a very neat solution to a blind cylinder bore :praise2: :praise2: :wine1:
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Very well executed!………… :Love:
:drinking-41:
Don
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Crueby, amazing. You do more in a day than I can accomplish in a week! Well, even then, I can't carve with a mill like that. I'm lucky if I cut a straight line, and it's where it should be. Your work is just totally admirable! :NotWorthy: :NotWorthy:
RReid, I built a Gingery lathe a long time ago, and for a time considered adding threading capability by making a thread follower for the spindle, like the old Unimat lathes used to have. I still might some day. Maybe you could consider one for the Taig?
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Every time someone asks me if Sherline machines are worth it, I send them to one of your threads Chris.....
You do whittle pretty!!!
Can't wait to see this one running....that's gonna be cool!
Dave
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Thanks very much guys! Its getting close to being a runner, just a lot of little bits to do, always the way with an engine - it starts to look like its done long before it is!
On the threading attachment, it is kind of a pain to put on and off the machine, they want you to take the motor off to get the handwheel on, and getting all the plates on is a nuisance. A while back I picked up a stray short-bed Sherline lathe bed, no motor, and have dedicated it to threading. I leave it set up all the time for the once-a-year or so that I use it for threading. One flaw in their setup is that the carrier plates for the intermediate gears just clamps themselves onto the leadscrew guide, and the two plates are clamped together with a single bolt at the end. I wound up finding a scrap bit of bar to prop under the plates at the outer end, or it tended to rotate on the lower clamp and disengage the gears under the pressure of cutting, losing its alignment. Also added some blocks at the top end to keep that joint from moving. Overall not a great design, but the gears you get are good at least. A long way from the big lathes that have the threading gears built in! Still, it works for the occasional use.
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Quite the slick little plug and packing gland! :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
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Quite the slick little plug and packing gland! :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
Thanks Kim! A bunch of work, but worth it in the long run to make the steam passages possible to drill and get the bottom/sides of the cylinder nice and even.
:cheers:
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The second cylinder was bored and threaded just like the first one, and the plug/cap made using the parts started with the first one. This one went a lot faster, used the notes on threading handwheel positions from the first one to get the depths to match.
(https://i.postimg.cc/jdBkWTQ1/IMG-2689.jpg)
So, next will be the valve bores. Pretty much the same as the cylinder bores, just smaller. I need to work out how the gland and mounting screws for the valve side will work out, may need to drop down a screw size or two to get them to fit. :thinking:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
You probably want to a two eared stud and nut or two bolt screw down gland for the valves for scale reasons, but if it doesn't work, you could probably do a screw-in phosphor bronze gland. These look nice too, if made with some spanner slots around the OD, and were used on lots and lots of full size engines. Just food for thought. :cheers:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
You probably want to a two eared stud and nut or two bolt screw down gland for the valves for scale reasons, but if it doesn't work, you could probably do a screw-in phosphor bronze gland. These look nice too, if made with some spanner slots around the OD, and were used on lots and lots of full size engines. Just food for thought. :cheers:
I like that idea! Was measuring things up, the valve rod with a 1mm o ring dictates the diameter of the hole, and the eared flange like the piston gland would put the screws, even 0-80 ones, dangerously close to the outside of the block. Hmm, going back to the shop to measure for the screw in gland...
Clomp clomp clomp...
Okay, I'm back. Yup! Plenty of room to use a 1/4-40 thread on the gland plug, which I have a tap and die for! Perfect!
Thanks for the suggestion!
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Very good and would simplify things enormously.
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Glad the idea was useful! :cheers: :ThumbsUp:
I found a pic (attached) of this style of gland on my roller engine. I believe the thread on the valve glands was 1/4"-40 just like you have in mind.
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Perfect. Might be able to size the notches so the little wrench from the Sabino bearing blocks will fit.
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:cheers: :ThumbsUp:
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Moving over to the valve bores, and duplicating the same process as on the cylinders. The block was turned around so the valve bore was centered on the faceplate, new counterweights figured out with some trial and error, and the valve hole drilled/bored to size:
(https://i.postimg.cc/sf47MQb8/IMG-2690.jpg)
Then moved over to the threading setup, and did the inside threads on it for the end plug/packing gland
(https://i.postimg.cc/VkdCZ75Q/IMG-2691.jpg)
The gland was turned, drilled, and threaded on the lathe - since this thread is a standard 1/4-40 a bottoming tap was used in the end hole. This hole was made deep enough for the o ring and a few threads for the plug. Then a hole for the valve rod goes in deeper, to go through the finished plug. I like to make the rod holes a little oversize so the rod wont run on the sides, but lets the o ring do the centering job (the spool valve itself also keeps it straight). Then the plug was threaded on the outside to match the thread on the valve bore. I started the thread below the end to let the plug sit proud of the block and also the full plug will take up less height in the bore. The thread extended a couple turns farther than needed, so I could pick the length to part off at without worrying about being off the end of the threads.
(https://i.postimg.cc/VLsMns8N/IMG-2693.jpg)
Close view of the plug screwed into the cylinder block. I repeated the process for the second one, so both are up to this stage. Still to make are the glands to screw in and hold the o-rings. Also left to do is to lap the cylinder and valve bores nice and smooth. The cylinder bore is pretty good as is, but the valve bore needs a little more time with the lapping, so I'll do both together.
(https://i.postimg.cc/qMmKLfJx/IMG-2695.jpg)
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Nice and tidy work, as always! :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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While I slept in this morning, the shop elves got the packing glands made for the valve rods. Hmmm, they are being extra helpful, either they did something bad I haven't found out about yet, or they know Christmas is coming. Or both! :Lol:
(https://i.postimg.cc/ZnvQLG27/IMG-2698.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/vBNjfYqx/IMG-2699.jpg)
Getting close to done on the cylinder blocks. I want to drill as many of the steam passages as possible before cutting them free of the bases, and lap the bores. The passages over to the valve need to be a specific distance apart, so I don't want to drill them at an angle all the way into the valve bore. I'm thinking that I'll drill them horizontally through from the far side, across the valve bore, and plug the holes at that side. Then drill in from the cylinder bore to intercept those holes as usual. Also need to drill/tap the pipe connection holes in the side of the valve bores, as well as the drain fitting holes in the ends of the bores.
Michael, I think its interesting how the bores have drain fittings just at the bottom ends. I saw that the cylinder has one at the top in the middle of the cap, but there is no second fitting at the top of the valve bore. Was about to ask you about that, then, I remembered that the valve pistons have a hole in the center to connect the areas above and below the valve - realized that any condensate would just run down to the bottom drain! :wallbang:
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That guy handles a 40 pound wrench like it was just a bouquet of flowers! :smokin2:
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That guy handles a 40 pound wrench like it was just a bouquet of flowers! :smokin2:
:Lol: Shop elves are strong!
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That's how it is Chris
there are drain valves just below.
You're making good progress and it's looking good.
Michael :cheers:
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Thanks for confirming that Michael!
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A number of small but important operations this afternoon that went more quickly than I thought they would - drilling the ports and passages. I started with drilling/tapping the holes for the steam pipe connectors. One of these leads to the center of the spool valve, the other leads to the lower end of the valve, which has a passage down its center so that this pipe effectively leads to both ends of the valve. I originally drew it up as using an 'ear'ed flange around the pipe, but the size of it would have been so small that I am going to use the same compression fittings that I used on the control valve.
(https://i.postimg.cc/W4LFXgKs/IMG-2700.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/GpFBN9wG/IMG-2701.jpg)
Then I laid out and drilled the passages that lead from the valve bore in towards the cylinder. The original would have had cores in the casting to locate these angling up to the cylinder ends, for the model I decided to drill through the valve bore from the side to start the passage. This allowed me to get the center distances between the holes exactly where I wanted them, which would have been extremely difficult to do with angled holes from the ends. If these holes were not in the designed places, then the dimensions of the spool valve would have had to be adjusted, and just measuring where the holes came out would have been very difficult. So, this way makes it a lot simple, and I just have to plug the holes in the outer wall. Those were counterdrilled and tapped for some screws which will be loctited in and cut off on the outside, the screws not going through the inner wall.
(https://i.postimg.cc/hjKJqgcw/IMG-2702.jpg)
Then drilled the lower passage vertically from the end to meet that first hole. This end of the passage will also be plugged.
(https://i.postimg.cc/PxKCXcqq/IMG-2703.jpg)
and finally connecting the passage through to the bottom end of the cylinder. The length of the pilot on the center drill was enough to break through into the passage. This hole is just beyon the end of the plug threads.
(https://i.postimg.cc/J0nGGqy5/IMG-2704.jpg)
The matching holes for the top of the cylinder will have to be done after trimming off the flange used to hold it to the faceplate - could be done now, but I think waiting will let me ensure the accuracy better. So, here is where they are now - one of the end holes has a screw in it to show how it will be plugged - not going to install the plugs till after the lapping is done, to make it easier to clean out any residue. Not shown but also done was drilling/tapping the holes for the drains at the bottom ends.
(https://i.postimg.cc/qq5gn3yV/IMG-2705.jpg)
So, next up looks to be lapping the bores, then cutting off the bases. Work after that includes trueing off the cut faces, drilling the holes for the cap mounting screws, and making the top caps. For those last operations I'll hold the cylinders with expanding arbors in the bores.
I don't think I've forgotten anything before all that - anyone spot anything I missed?
:cheers: :cheers:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Looking great from here Chris!
Re: extra helpful elves - I'd keep an eye out for charges on your card from your local Navy rum outlet for "consumables, workshop, seasonal" :Lol:
They did a nice job on the gland nuts. Are they made in something that will run nicely on the valve rods? I made the ones on the roller pic from phosphor bronze and they've run a LOT of hours with no apparent wear on rods or gland nuts. The rods on the roller are 300 series stainless, either 303 or 304, just FYI.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Looking great from here Chris!
Re: extra helpful elves - I'd keep an eye out for charges on your card from your local Navy rum outlet for "consumables, workshop, seasonal" :Lol:
They did a nice job on the gland nuts. Are they made in something that will run nicely on the valve rods? I made the ones on the roller pic from phosphor bronze and they've run a LOT of hours with no apparent wear on rods or gland nuts. The rods on the roller are 300 series stainless, either 303 or 304, just FYI.
I wondered what that charge was... :Lol:
The glands are steel, with the hole a bit oversized so just the o ring will bear on the valve rods. The valves are long enough to keep them straight and the rods short so not much leverage on them. Can always swap to bronze later if need be.
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:ThumbsUp: :cheers:
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After some lapping on the bores to smooth out the edges of the holes drilled through them, the cylinders were cut off the holding flanges at last! :whoohoo: You may notice the shop elf passed out in the background of this picture - that was a lot of sawing he did! Maybe for Christmas I'll give him a new set of sharp blades... :LittleDevil:
(https://i.postimg.cc/8Ch8xKdX/IMG-2706.jpg)
Couldn't resist holding one up to the engine to see how it looks! Its amazing how light weight they are now too.
(https://i.postimg.cc/DzVkjkGb/IMG-2707.jpg)
So, next will be to make up an expanding arbor to hold them for trimming the top edge and drilling the cap holes...
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Perfect! 👍
And if I think about the four pillars......
(how long has the poor guy had to work with blunt saws?) :facepalm:
Michael
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Perfect! 👍
And if I think about the four pillars......
(how long has the poor guy had to work with blunt saws?) :facepalm:
Michael
:lolb: Since he used my credit card to buy another wagon load of beer. Without sharing any with me! :Jester:
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Michael - quite a while, by the look of him - but he may have got into the Navy rum eggnog, too. Chris's shop elves have LOTS of tricks. :Lol: :cheers:
Chris, great to see the cylinders are separated! That's a major milestone. :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Is he passed out from sawing, or from quenching his thirst after sawing?
Cylinders are looking fantastic. :ThumbsUp:
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If you can whittle that Chris You can Whittle the Ohio cylinders!
Dave
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If you can whittle that Chris You can Whittle the Ohio cylinders!
Dave
Yeah, okay, good point! And nice Nudge to get the Ohio engine up near the top of the list! I still want to do that steam hammer first, may need it to shape some of the frame parts!
Thanks all!
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They look so much smaller with out all the mounting fixtures and such! :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
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They look so much smaller with out all the mounting fixtures and such! :popcorn: :popcorn:
OK - so I wheren't the only one thinking that :Lol:
But with the Cylinders, you have certainly proved that a bit of planing ahead can make things much easier to make Chris :ThumbsUp:
Per
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They look so much smaller with out all the mounting fixtures and such! :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
Especially compared to the size of the round bar it started as. The slabs sawn off the sidez are heavier than the finished cylinders!
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To trim the top ends of the cylinders and to drill the cap mounting holes, an expanding arbor was made from a piece of steel rod. A 10-32 SHCS had its head tapered on the lathe, small end to threads, then the bar was drilled most of the way through just larger than the small end of the screw head, and drilled/tapped the rest of the way through. The sides of the bar were turned to be a close fit on the inside bore of the cylinders, loose enough to slip the cylinder on. Then the upper section was sawn down its length so it could expand as the screw was tightened in.
(https://i.postimg.cc/xTm4j01x/IMG-2714.jpg)
Here is the first cylinder slipped onto the arbor, and the screw tightened down to hold it in place.
(https://i.postimg.cc/HLYZtX4R/IMG-2712.jpg)
and after turning the sawn end down to length
(https://i.postimg.cc/g0gMtjgJ/IMG-2713.jpg)
Both are done to this stage, next will get the upper end passages drilled, and start work on the end caps...
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beautiful,
you won't get very far without such self-made tools.
Michael :cheers:
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beautiful,
you won't get very far without such self-made tools.
Michael :cheers:
It took a lot less time and was more accurate in results than trying to clamp it in the four-jaw chuck somehow. Another option could have been some sort of post and clamps on the faceplate, or doing it all on the mill with a lot of centering work. I've got a couple other expanding arbors made over the years, but they keep getting cut down for smaller diameter bores on different models, so every once in a while I have to make another one, like today, with a larger diameter.
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It all depends on your priorities. I mean which you rather store, 1 or 2 arbors that you keep turning down to the size needed, or a whole drawer full of the various sizes that you've used over the years? And then STILL not have the size you REALLY need.
Besides if you had a drawer full of them the shop elves would just start using them as ammo in their black powder mortars.
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It all depends on your priorities. I mean which you rather store, 1 or 2 arbors that you keep turning down to the size needed, or a whole drawer full of the various sizes that you've used over the years? And then STILL not have the size you REALLY need.
Besides if you had a drawer full of them the shop elves would just start using them as ammo in their black powder mortars.
Agreed with the first part - not sure if I've ever re-used the same size!
On the second part, thanks SO much for giving the elves another idea like that!! :hammerbash:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
The shop elves and gnomes never seem to lack ideas for ammo for the BP mortar. They seem to think my garage door is the gate to Fort Sumter or something. Particularly now, in the middle of eggnog / Navy rum season..... :paranoia: taking cover.....
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
The shop elves and gnomes never seem to lack ideas for ammo for the BP mortar. They seem to think my garage door is the gate to Fort Sumter or something. Particularly now, in the middle of eggnog / Navy rum season..... :paranoia: taking cover.....
Well, you DID let them know where the grog is... :zap: I'll pass on the message to leave the garage door alone. Front window should be easier for them to breach... :LittleDevil: :ROFL:
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Hoo boy - wherezat cardboard? :Lol:
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This morning I got the upper passages drilled between the cylinder and valve, just like the first set the other day. Some screws have been loctited into the ends of the holes, am letting that cure up before cutting them off and filing them flush with the surface...
While waiting for that, I guess I can start on the top caps!
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Started in on the cylinder caps this afternoon. Turned the shape of the first one into the end of a bar, it has a domed center, recess before the rim, and a spigot for the cylinder drain/oil fitting in the center. All freehand shaping with final smoothing with a file.
(https://i.postimg.cc/2SxN2W3v/IMG-2715.jpg)
Then over to the rotary table to drill the clearance holes for the mounting bolts. I'm leaving the mill in this position till both caps and matching holes in the cylinder ends are drilled.
(https://i.postimg.cc/bvNcMv25/IMG-2716.jpg)
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Thanks CNR!
Hey Michael, early on you included a picture of the nameplate for the engine. Is that original or something that you made?
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Capping the cylinders today! Got the second cap made like the first one yesterday, then drilled/tapped the mounting holes in the cylinder.
(https://i.postimg.cc/4y2xNNYL/IMG-2717.jpg)
Here are the caps test fit
(https://i.postimg.cc/wT3B4JrS/IMG-2718.jpg)
Now working on the valve caps.
(https://i.postimg.cc/44Wd1wW6/IMG-2719.jpg)
Both are drilled/tapped, and am turning/milling the caps now. That big storm moving in cross country is approaching fast, the barometer has dropped a LOT, almost at an all time low for this area (for what I have seen on mine here anyway), and the winds are picking up and the power is starting to flicker occasionally. Fortunately I have a generator, so no worries about heat or power, but I may lose internet later if the power is out for the area. The worst of the snow is expected to be west of here, off Lake Erie again, but we may get 6 inches of snow here blowing around with 50 mph winds. Good time to stay inside and stay warm!
:cheers:
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I agree. I figure that with the winds we're getting, 20-30 mph with gusts to 50, most of the snow that fell here in Iowa has got to be somewhere around Kentucky by now. This has got to be Canadian snow going by now.
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I agree. I figure that with the winds we're getting, 20-30 mph with gusts to 50, most of the snow that fell here in Iowa has got to be somewhere around Kentucky by now. This has got to be Canadian snow going by now.
That snow may blow past here tonight on its way to Quebec!
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Hello Chris,
I really like the top cylinder covers.
There are old pictures of the machine with these double valve oilers. I made a simplified version of mine. I don't know how the cylinders were last lubricated. There are pictures with blind plugs on the cylinder covers.
How did cylinder oil get to the piston?
On my machine there is a connection thread, which was also closed with a cap, in the supply steam line. A mechanical oil pump is not known.
The shield is an original cast from another machine. Only the number has changed. The shield was originally on top of the sheet metal casing.
Would you like to recreate it too? Do you need another photo?
I hope the snow, the wind and the cold stay within limits. It's already 10 degrees above 0 again, it's been raining for days. So another green Christmas.
I wish you a quiet celebration and let the workshop elves give you rich gifts.
Greetings Michael
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Those caps look even better ON the cylinders than they did on the bar Chris!
:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Just saw a bunch of snow gusts go by with "Quebec or Bust" signs flyin' in em.....
Bit on the blustery side here today. Might rethink my sunbathing plans.....
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Beautiful work on the cylinder caps, Chris!
Hope you all stay warm and with power! It's been in the low 20's (F) for the last couple of days here and last night it snowed (more like 'iced'). It's supposed to start warming up tomorrow though, so we'll likely have a green Christmas too, Michael!
20's is just absurdly cold for this area of the country (NW Oregon).
Kim
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Interesting oilers, my guess is that they could open the top valve, put in heavy oil, close top and open bottom valve?
That plate would be a nice touch, I have a good picture of it, but measurements of it would be great, maybe a picture of it with a ruler across the bottom, I could scale it all from that.
Merry Christmas!
:cheers:
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Those caps look really good! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Those caps look really good! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Thanks!
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Temperatures outside still falling, passed 12F last I looked, just light flurries still, most appear to be heading for Vermont!
Got more done on the caps, made the valve caps by similar means, drilled the holes on the mill, squared up the sides of the round bar, and parted off. Then held in 4-jaw and turned in the top details.
(https://i.postimg.cc/MKbmKC57/IMG-2720.jpg)
Then assembled all the parts onto the cylinders, and screwed them to the engine frame with the flanges on the back - still need to make the posts to support them in the front.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Hk60bbfj/IMG-2722.jpg)
Cylinders are close to the large gear but there is plenty of clearance.
(https://i.postimg.cc/x1fyk6pW/IMG-2723.jpg)
A nice family shot of all the parts so far:
(https://i.postimg.cc/jjCHcLbc/IMG-2721.jpg)
Good time to stop for the day and sit and admire it! :wine1:
So, looks almost done, but still a bunch of things to make:- Cylinder support posts/lower blocks
- Pistons/rods
- Crossheads
- Crosshead guide plates
- Valves/rods
- Valve crossheads
- Gaskets
- Pipes from control valve to cylinders
After all that can start timing/testing/fettling/fussing/adjusting stage!
Then, the rest of the model:- Base (looking like a pilothouse deck)
- Chain guides below engine
- Rollers for chains back to rudder quadrant
- Rudder quadrant
- Top of rudder to show what this thing actually does!
Looks like fun for weeks yet! :cheers:
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Oh, and the nameplate on the engine, plus a model nameplate on the base.
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I once held the "Inchstick" (Zollstock in German and that's what we still call it) to the sign.
These oil apparatuses are available in different variants and sizes.
I installed small valves on the machine that were still available for sale 40 years ago.
Maybe add a small pressure gauge?
Michael
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Perfect! Thanks!! At model scale it looks a bit small to engrave/mill out, but should be able to electic-etch one to match.
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Something about the factory sign:
In English.
CHAIN
GERMAN ELB SHIPPING COMPANY
SHIPYARD UEBIGAU
FABRI NUMBER 174 1897
UEBIGAU was a small suburb of the city of Dresden.
The name chain comes from the navigation with the help of chains in the river.
They built the ships, boilers and steam engines.
Michael
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Something about the factory sign:
In English.
CHAIN
GERMAN ELB SHIPPING COMPANY
SHIPYARD UEBIGAU
FABRI NUMBER 174 1897
UEBIGAU was a small suburb of the city of Dresden.
The name chain comes from the navigation with the help of chains in the river.
They built the ships, boilers and steam engines.
Michael
Excellent - I had tried running it through a translator, but was confused by the 'Chain' portion. In the river through Rochester there was a car and passenger ferry that was moved on a large chain, but I never made the mental connection.
Thanks!! I'll keep that note with the plate. :cheers: :cheers:
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There was a chain in the middle of the river that ran from Hamburg to Dresden. That was about 600 kilometers. The chains pulled the steamers against the current.
Up to 7 ships without engines were then attached to the steamer.
Michael
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Thanks Michael,
More interesting background history to enjoy.
Chris will probably start work on the 'chain gang' next
Mike
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Hello Michael
Do you have any old photos of the chain winch installed on the steam ship; which acted as the tug boat for the other 7 boats?
The chain capstan or winch drum should be interesting
Mike
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THat middle picture "Paging Captain Nemo"!!
Something about the factory sign:
In English.
CHAIN
GERMAN ELB SHIPPING COMPANY
SHIPYARD UEBIGAU
FABRI NUMBER 174 1897
UEBIGAU was a small suburb of the city of Dresden.
The name chain comes from the navigation with the help of chains in the river.
They built the ships, boilers and steam engines.
Michael
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yes the chains ships look very unusual.
The shape of the hull is built for the chain. The chain runs from one side centrally across the deck and then back into the water. on deck the chain runs through a winch. I still have a few pictures from my book and from Wikipedia.
The mechanism ranged from simple to highly complicated. By around 1920, the chain ships on the Elbe were over. The paddle steamers were strong enough now. What was very complicated is when two chains of ships wanted to meet. The chain had to be separated and then closed again after the replacement. Besides, the ships could be heard from miles away by their loud rattling of the chains without seeing them.
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Finally, otherwise we'll blow up Chris' construction report.
In my town there is still the last preserved chain ship. On land as a museum. It had already moved ashore in 1930 and the hull served for decades as a changing room for a bathing establishment on the river.
The hull was restored a few years ago and everything that was missing in terms of technology was recreated.
The special thing about this ship is that it not only had the chain winch, but also a turbine drive, a kind of water jet, for driving without a chain.
Here's the page for it. Maybe your computers can translate.
https://www.kettendampfer-magdeburg.de/
Michael
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danke schön :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Mike
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Hi "C" Looking good not long now for its running..Interesting stuff about the chain vessels :ThumbsUp: :)
Willy...
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Sooooo......
I see an alternative to the "garden railway." Canals through the yard and model chain ships moving along while one sits and enjoys favorite beverage.
ShopShoe
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And you don't have to pay a workshop elves as a helmsman. The ship steers itself.😄
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Those chain ships are amazing, never seen anything like that! Very clever way to handle a heavy current on the river, a bit like the cog railways up mountains. When I first saw that picture of the ship I wondered if it was an early submarine or an ironclad warship from the shape, that guess was way off.
I just used Google Translate on that website with the ship, very interesting, they have some good pictures of the machinery there. May have to send Michael there with a big wrench and a truck, or at least a camera and tape measure!
Thanks very much for that information!
And you don't have to pay a workshop elves as a helmsman. The ship steers itself.😄
Though it reminds me of the old RoadRunner cartoons, where Wile E coyote changed the line down the middle of the road to go into the clifff, my shop elves would want to rearrange the chain into a slolam course or run it up over a hill!
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Those chain ships are amazing, never seen anything like that! Very clever way to handle a heavy current on the river, a bit like the cog railways up mountains. When I first saw that picture of the ship I wondered if it was an early submarine or an ironclad warship from the shape, that guess was way off.
I just used Google Translate on that website with the ship, very interesting, they have some good pictures of the machinery there. May have to send Michael there with a big wrench and a truck, or at least a camera and tape measure!
Wikipedia has some good articles, search for „chain boat navigation“.
I can remember my grandfather telling stories of swimming in the river Neckar and climbing onto barges pulled by chain boats.
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Decided the next parts would be the front cylinder block support posts. They have been started from some lengths of 1/4" round bar, rough cut to length, both ends smoothed off so they can be measured accurately for length, and the first ends are all turned down and threaded.
(https://i.postimg.cc/YqV0THvr/IMG-2724.jpg)
The first ends go at the bottom, they go through the engine bed and into square nuts inside the bed. Then measured the total length from that first shoulder, and the length needed for each support to find out how far to cut the shoulder back at the other (top) end. Got the first one cut at the top end too, three more to go. The threaded section at the top end (on the left in the picture) is a little long, will trim those back once the nuts are made and test fit.
(https://i.postimg.cc/SxMRhv9W/IMG-2725.jpg)
Once all four are up to this stage, I'll start shaping the center sections down to size - centers are narrower and flare out to the shoulders at the ends.
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Huh. New projects keep appearing... :Lol:
A while back I had mentioned that I had found a full set of plans for the steering engine for the battleship Kearsarge (BB-5) at the National Archives website. It works on the same basic principals as the one I am building, but it is MUCH larger - pistons are 15 inch diameter, and it is moving a huge rudder. They also have 6 different redundant steering methods built in, from the normal wheel up in the pilothouse driven through steel wire cables, u-jointed shafts, or a remote electro-hydraulic telemotor, a small wheel right on the engine, to two sets of three large wheels geared to the output shaft that teams of men could turn by brute force (one shown, another set was up higher in the superstructure, connected to the main shaft via mitre gears). The big assembly on the right is what takes the rotation of the engine and converts it to rotation of the rudder via a left/right threaded shaft and two links connected to a wide crank arm. Fascinating system!
Here is a screen grab from the CAD app:
(https://i.postimg.cc/QtQ9QnmQ/Kearsarge-Steering-Engine-CAD1.jpg)
as well as a photo-render of it from the same application
(https://i.postimg.cc/Y9KLmw62/Kearsarge-Engine-v63-Render.jpg)
Not going to start on building this soon, this goes in the queue. Somewhere. Not sure where in the list... :shrug:
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:Love:
:cheers:
Don
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Chris, you don't have to be so precise. There are a lot of thin brass washers and strips on the rods and on the pad on the cylinder on the big one.
😉
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Chris, you don't have to be so precise. There are a lot of thin brass washers and strips on the rods and on the pad on the cylinder on the big one.
😉
Habit! And its quicker to measure than to make washers a few thou thick. :cheers:
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Back in the shop again today, working on the support posts for the cylinder blocks. Last time had gotten the ends turned and threaded, this time working on the center sections. Started by turning the flare at one end, and worked my way back down the length turning the narrow center section. Here am a couple sections back, doing them in short lengths since it was so thin I didn't want it hanging out from the chuck too far.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Fzp1Z3VW/IMG-2729.jpg)
Stopped at this point, where there was not a lot left to hold on to
(https://i.postimg.cc/3Jrkwf3P/IMG-2730.jpg)
then held it by the narrow section to work on the second end
(https://i.postimg.cc/3xVNnK2T/IMG-2731.jpg)
changing cutters a couple times for the different areas
(https://i.postimg.cc/DfPWn33r/IMG-2732.jpg)
here is a test fit of the posts
(https://i.postimg.cc/q7KRF9GC/IMG-2736.jpg)
I had some (exactly four, got lucky) thick 4-40 nuts left over from the last time I made a batch, so all I needed to make was the rectangular bars for the bottom end. They used these to spread the load over a larger area without undercutting the bed frame too much. These rectangular holes extend back under the hole for the post. I drilled/tapped holes in the bar stock, and trimmed the end so the hole wound up in the proper place, then marked the bar when in the bed frame to know ehere to cut it off
(https://i.postimg.cc/bN6sS0Jd/IMG-2739.jpg)
Here is the first one trimmed off and installed
(https://i.postimg.cc/Z5C089BH/IMG-2740.jpg)
Having the posts made really holds the cylinder blocks in place more rigidly. Next will get started on the valve/piston rods...
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Like your nut bar idea! .....er let me re-phrase that ...... nut bar is a great idea. :Lol:
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Looking at it now - you could almost be forgive for thinking it is the bigger version during maintainance (getting new plumbing etc.) :praise2:
Per :cheers: :popcorn: :cheers:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Like your nut bar idea! .....er let me re-phrase that ...... nut bar is a great idea. :Lol:
The bar-nuts are on the original engine, making them in one length then cutting them apart is my contribution. I used to love the old Planters Peanut bars, now buy the equivalent from Nuts.com.
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Looking at it now - you could almost be forgive for thinking it is the bigger version during maintainance (getting new plumbing etc.) :praise2:
Per :cheers: :popcorn: :cheers:
Thats the best complement for a model! Thanks!
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It looks really good! Almost perfect 👍.
But I think you have to send the model over to me so I can compare it properly......of course when it's done.
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It looks really good! Almost perfect 👍.
But I think you have to send the model over to me so I can compare it properly......of course when it's done.
:lolb:
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Well, I thought I'd have the valve rods well under way this morning, but its been a bunch of trial and failure attempts. The spool valves need to have a hole one end to the other to put steam or exhaust on both ends. I was also figuring that I could have the valve rod threaded through the valve spool to make the position adjustable. But, the narrow diameter makes it easy to put EITHER a threaded rod through, or a hole, but not both. The valve rod itself is only 1/8" diameter, and drilling the center made the threaded section too weak and it wanted to bend and break. Not enough room to put a hole next to the valve rod hole and still have enough recess in the spool section for good flow.
:zap:
The other way to have some adjustment is to make the bottom end of the valve rod threaded into the crosshead piece in the yoke down at the bottom end, I think that is the direction I'll go instead. There is not a lot of distance between the top of the yoke and the bottom of the gland, but enough for 1/8" of adjustment, which should be enough with some careful measurements when making the spool and rod, which will probably be from one piece of bronze.
Long winded way of saying that the initial plan didn't work, and I'm going to try something else! :shrug: Good place to walk away from the shop and go make some lunch, come back to it later or tomorrow!
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Just a thought... :noidea:
Jo
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Just a thought... :noidea:
Jo
Hi Jo,
I had considered doing something like that, but if the center bore was threaded, it would limit the positions that the spool could be at and still function with the hole in the side wall for the passages.
:thinking:
Hmmmm, seeing it drawn out, maybe that would work okay. The solid section for the through-hole could be just wide enough for the hole, leaving about 3/4 of the valve spool, and with a fine thread that 1/4 turn of adjustment is not much. There is enough height to the valve bore that a locknut could be put on top of the spool, with the through hole useful with a bar to hold it for spinning for adjustment and tightening the locknut.
:thinking:
I like that better than having a short section of threads down at the yoke, and with this setup just the spool itself would need to be bronze, the rod and crosshead could be one piece of steel. I like that!
Thanks!! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
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Hello Chris,
why pierce the rod?
In the original piston valve there are three chambers that create the passage.
I could now imagine making the piston in two parts.
You have to mill a star and slide a pipe over it.
Maybe it's like this?
Michael
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Michael - you are right about the desired shape - the hard part is making it so the outer diameter of the valve is only .328", and the valve rod is .125" OD. That leaves very little room for the holes/passages, and I want to have the valve rod threaded so I can adjust the position of the valve on the rod. Just too small for me to make that way!
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So, working off of Jo's idea, I got started on the parts for the valve rod and the crosshead fitting at the bottom end. Two lengths of 1/8" rod was threaded for the valve bodies, and a piece of larger diameter rod from the scrap bin was drilled 1/8" for the two rods. Just silver soldered the ends of the rods into the bottom block, and they are in soaking in some vinegar to clean them up. The block at the bottom will be drilled through for the pivot pin, and the block sawn/trimmed to the width of the opening in the yoke on top of the eccentric arm.
(https://i.postimg.cc/hjXFfJSd/IMG-2741.jpg)
I'll make up the valve bodies from bronze rod...
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Looks like a nice solid connection of the drive hubs to the threaded valve stems Chris. :cheers:
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After getting the valve rod ends cleaned up, the pivot pin hole was drilled through. I did this before cutting the two pieces apart since the longer rod was easier to align in the chuck. Used same setup to turn the outer ends back even with the rods.
(https://i.postimg.cc/VsRMY47p/IMG-2742.jpg)
Then the two pieces were rough-sawn apart then cleaned up on the lathe to final thickness
(https://i.postimg.cc/cLVtDzHg/IMG-2743.jpg)
a test fit on the engine - put a screw through the holes to do a motion test, turning the crankshaft by hand, and all clears :cartwheel:
(https://i.postimg.cc/bJPDP21q/IMG-2744.jpg)
Decided to do the same steps on the piston rods before making the valves. These are a little different since there is a post and plate that extend over to the crosshead guide plates on the vertical wall. First step was to take a measurement on each cylinder, centerline to the guide plate, to make sure no tolerances had built up with all the pieces installed. The measurement was slightly different than the plan, so that was a good thing to check. It was awkward to see the measurement with the overhanging cylinder, and I didn't want to lay the engine on its side and possibly damage the steering wheel, so I got out a scissor lift that I picked up during other big builds, and got the engine up to eye level.
(https://i.postimg.cc/FK3dwxdP/IMG-2746.jpg)
Much easier to see and measure! Though the shop elves thought it was a good time to practice their acrobatics... They should be back from the doctor later...
(https://i.postimg.cc/SNx9j83s/IMG-2748.jpg)
For the center pivot portion of the crosshead, started with a round bar, drilled one set of holes through and another to meet the first one from the side. The collet block made aligning them easy. Flats were milled where the rods will come in to meet the center piece so there are no gaps.
(https://i.postimg.cc/T3yWJxRv/IMG-2750.jpg)
Turned up some round bar for the short posts and the longer piston rods - shoulders on each end will align them for length. Before soldering I want to turn the top ends of the piston rods for the piston heads. Here are the parts so far slipped together - doing them still joined as a pair to aid alignment and holding.
(https://i.postimg.cc/VLZCtvPF/IMG-2751.jpg)
Those rods sticking up vertically will be trimmed off flush with the plate after soldering.
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Nice work on the rods, Chris! :popcorn:
That's a cute little scissor table you've got there!
Kim
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you have really good ideas 💡
Michael
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Like the shop elf jungle gym. Is it an original one from Pinch Point Manufacturing? :Lol:
PS valve rod work looks great! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Like the shop elf jungle gym. Is it an original one from Pinch Point Manufacturing? :Lol:
PS valve rod work looks great! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Its a DropOnHead brand! :lolb:
That little lift table came from Amazon as I recall, they make them for positioning beakers and such in chem labs. Handy little table, I've used it like jack stands on the wheeled models too. Its only about 5" on a side.
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Top ends of the piston rods are turned and threaded for the piston heads/nuts. Measured the lengths by putting an o-ring on a piece of the rod material, and lowering it down through the cylinder to the con-rod little end, till it was even with the center of the pin hole when at the bottom of the crank movement, and measuring the distance from the end of the rod to the bottom of the o-ring. Then put crank at the top, ran in the rod, and marked where it crossed the top of the cylinder. Measured from end of the rod to that mark. Those two measurements gave me the max/min distance from the center of the pin to the ends of the cylinder. Measured out the center of that range with the thickness of the piston head, and got the top/bottom of where the head needed to be. Turned the end of the rods back to the lower mark, and used the upper mark as a guide where to cut the rod. The piston head will be held with a nut recessed into the top surface plus loctite.
(https://i.postimg.cc/rFqHs8Sj/IMG-2752.jpg)
Ready for silver soldering... Since the seal will be done with an o-ring, the OD of the piston head will be a few thou smaller than the ID of the cylinder.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Chris,
Love the acrobatic shop elves. Those pesky elves keep getting in the way, don't they
Colin
Ps Yet another staggering Crueby build. I'm running out of :popcorn:
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I'll have the elves drop off another truck (model sized) load of popcorn for you! :Jester: For payment, they take beer, pretzels, and more beer... :Lol:
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This morning I got the parts silver soldered, they are in soaking in vinegar to clean them up. While waiting for that, I went back to the national archives site and did some more poking around in the ship plans section, and found they have the collection of plan sheets for two of the steam powered winches on the Kearsarge as well as the steering engine. Both look pretty straightforward, and may find their way into the build queue at some point. ^-^
One bit of terminology that I don't understand, likely one of you will know. On the 15x14" engine/windlass, they call it a "15x14 Inverted Link Reversing Engine". It is the "Inverted Link" part I don't get. It uses a standard Stephenson link for the reverse gear on it, and the crankshaft/piston look typical too. Not sure what is inverted. Here is a scaled down snippet from the plans showing the general arrangement:
(https://i.postimg.cc/SK4z8NGT/RG19-ALPHA-Kearsarge-class-Battleships-276a.jpg)
The engine sits upright on the base next to the windlass, so the engine itself is not inverted. Any ideas what that term means?
Thanks!
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It just means the crank is below the cylinder. At one point in the distant past, having the crank above the cylinders was normal for paddle wheel boats. Putting it below the cylinders was considered inverted.
Seems like a pretty standard layout engine ... I would be interested in seeing the timing on it.... ( percent cut off specifically) It probably was very long.
Dave
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As a windless, it doesn't need to be efficient, but it does need to be powerful!....so I suspect the cut off is just as long as they could make it!.... Much the same for duplex steam pumps and similar. There was a basically an endless supply of steam available.
Dave
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As a windless, it doesn't need to be efficient, but it does need to be powerful!....so I suspect the cut off is just as long as they could make it!.... Much the same for duplex steam pumps and similar. There was a basically an endless supply of steam available.
Dave
Same thing on the steam shovels, short runs, max power needed at startup from any position. Its a nice looking engine. In looking through more of the plan sheets, I found an arrangement view where it shows this engine/windlass, which was used for the anchor chains, right next to another drum windlass with a smaller engine, that windlass set up for ropes for docking and for raising the anchors up to the side of the ship for storage. On THAT windlass, the engine has the crank above the cylinders, which put the engine below the deck so it would not interfere with the chain windlass, which has its engine above the deck. Now it makes sense!
Thanks!!
:cheers:
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It just means the crank is below the cylinder. At one point in the distant past, having the crank above the cylinders was normal for paddle wheel boats. Putting it below the cylinders was considered inverted.
Seems like a pretty standard layout engine ... I would be interested in seeing the timing on it.... ( percent cut off specifically) It probably was very long.
Dave
Looked over the other sheets that show the valve and ports, here are the key measurements:- Eccentric offset = 1-5/16, total travel of valve 2-5/8
- slide valve center opening 4"
- slide valve end walls = 1-9/16"
- Center port opening 2"
- Outer port openings 1-3/16"
- Center to Outer port spacings 1-1/8"
They do not give the angle that the eccentrics are from the crank, eccentrics are clamp-on style not keyed.
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Looking at the drawing ( End view) It shows the line of the eccentric rods to the crank. It appears to have NO lead at all, which makes me think there is little if ANY steam lap, and a very long cut off is likely....but it's kinda pixelated, and I can't tell for sure.
Dave
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Going by the measurements from the other sheets (since the drawn lines are so close on the arrangements view), the outside of the valve slider is is 7.25", and the outside edges of the outer ports are 6.625", so there is 5/8" max overlap of the valve slider on the ports.
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From the 4" and 1-9/16" dimensions you gave above I concluded the valve was 7-1/8" long, giving 1/4" outside lap at each end. There also appears to be an inside lap of 1/8".
I am a little surprised to see a screw reverse on a winch engine, rather than a pole, except that if worked with a pole with steam on, an engine that size could break your wrist/arm.
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From the 4" and 1-9/16" dimensions you gave above I concluded the valve was 7-1/8" long, giving 1/4" outside lap at each end. There also appears to be an inside lap of 1/8". I don't know why the laps are different when inside and outside serve as both inlet and exhaust, depending on the direction of rotation.
I would be inclined to make the model valves 'line on line', with no lap.
Hey Charles, Very small laps for sure on the inside and outside which from what I can make out looks to be the steam lap and exhaust lap, In anycase, on a 15" bore engine it's NOT a lot :ROFL: So agreed, build with as little lap as will seal and run....
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Thanks guys! This one looks like a good future build, with both windlasses and engines together.
For the steering engine, after cleaning the crossheads after soldering, I found one joint without solder and redid it, it is all clean and ready for next steps today.
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Steamer, I have since edited out that bit of my post. I had thought we were talking about the steering engine.
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Steamer, I have since edited out that bit of my post. I had thought we were talking about the steering engine.
Yup We all got off track, Back to our regularly scheduled program! 8)
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Steamer, I have since edited out that bit of my post. I had thought we were talking about the steering engine.
Yup We all got off track, Back to our regularly scheduled program! 8)
No problem - I do bounce between projects, current and future, a lot!
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This morning I drilled the crosshead piece for the pivot pin, this hole is sized for a bronze bearing.
(https://i.postimg.cc/sDdkSv8C/IMG-2753.jpg)
Turned/drilled up a short bit of bronze rod for the bearing, and put it in place with some loctite retaining compound
(https://i.postimg.cc/13M2LMzy/IMG-2755.jpg)'
With the two pieces cut apart, they were held (carefully) and milled (lightly) on each side to take the center to the width needed to fit in the con rod yoke. At this point the post coming out of the guide plate is still there, it made for a handy spot to hold onto it, after this operation it was cut off flush with the plate.
(https://i.postimg.cc/zXC9kqZb/IMG-2756.jpg)
And test fit the crossheads/piston rods on the engine. All looks good, and it rotates fine. :cartwheel:
(https://i.postimg.cc/JhnvmJyZ/IMG-2758.jpg)
Also ran the crank around while looking down inside the cylinder to make sure the piston head will clear top and bottom - yes!
(https://i.postimg.cc/NjQZJZBN/IMG-2760.jpg)
So, next I need to make the pivot pins for the valve and piston rods...
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:whoohoo:
Its finally starting! They held off till Kozo's latest build ended. Slight delay this month too, their press room was backed up - Kozo's latest book on the K-27 is also delayed since they can't get the paper type they need to print it. This article will have full plans for the shovel in it.
:cartwheel:
(https://i.postimg.cc/6Qk0SGC9/Marion-Magazine-Cover.jpg)
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Chris, you're going to be famous!
Michael
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Congrats Chris!!! Well deserved!
Dave
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Nice cover! Congrats
Dave
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Hey, cool!!! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :cheers:
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Congratulations Chris on the start of the series! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Congratulations, Chris! Beautiful cover! This is very exciting ;D :ThumbsUp:
Can't wait to get my next issue!
How many installments will there be for the Marrion series?
Kim
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Thanks guys!! I've been waiting a couple years for this one to start, been camped out by the mailbox waiting for my copies!
I don't know how many installments there will be, it all depends on whether the editor combines or splits my chapters to fit each issue. I wrote it as 30 chapters, some long, some short, breaking it up by subassembly. Its a long build since there are four two-cylinder engines, boiler, frame, multiple gearboxes, tracks, all that stuff. I would expect that it will be running for several years at least since its only 6 issues per year. They include full drawings for all parts - fortunately the editor is really good at picking up missed dimensions and such, I usually have to make tweaks on a couple per issue. He also combines some of the drawings into fewer views than I do too.
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Really nice cover shot Chris. Congrats on the publishing of an excellent project. Don't let the elves see that or they will want more beer!
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Really nice cover shot Chris. Congrats on the publishing of an excellent project. Don't let the elves see that or they will want more beer!
:Lol:
I'm actually still waiting on my paper copies, they had a delay at the print shop, am camped out at the mailbox every day! They finally mailed out a few days ago. I owe a copy to the friend of mine who took the picture on the cover (I set up the camera on a tripod, had him push the button when I was ready), and another copy to the head of the historical society there that kindly let me in a bunch of times to measure/photograph the shovel, back a number of times when I found I missed some details inside the frame and controls.
I put lights up on it at Christmas several years:
(https://i.postimg.cc/1zdT1n6h/IMG-2172.jpg)
Was fun to see the people driving by looking at it, was waiting for one of them to vear off into the quarry!
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Congrats Chris well deserved publications. Your work is outstanding and deserve Recognition…..
:drinking-41:
Don
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That morning went fast! Made up the pivot bolts for the piston and valve rod ends from some 303 hex bar. The shanks were turned and the ends drilled/tapped for some 2-56 screws. Rather than try and thread a very short length on the bolt, I loctited in the end of a screw then cut off the rest of the screw to leave the short threaded section, one screw was enough to do all of them.
(https://i.postimg.cc/T18FgJGm/IMG-2762.jpg)
And yes, the two in the picture are different lengths. The short one is for the valve rod yoke, the long one is for the piston rod yoke. The rods are different diameters, so the yokes are different size too. Here is one pair test fit on the engine:
(https://i.postimg.cc/3R0zkcMY/IMG-2761.jpg)
I am not going to install the nuts on the ends of the bolts yet, its all coming apart again shortly to start on the piston head and valve spool...
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That's very clever! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :cheers:
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That's very clever! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :cheers:
Started doing it that way a while back after ruining the ends of the shoulder bolts I had turned trying to get a full thread on them. This way is much easier!
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I've already made it as a sleeve from silver steel and then hardened it a bit. A threaded rod pushed through in the middle and two nuts on the left and right. works too.
Happy New Year
Michael
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I've already made it as a sleeve from silver steel and then hardened it a bit. A threaded rod pushed through in the middle and two nuts on the left and right. works too.
Happy New Year
Michael
That would work great too! :ThumbsUp:
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No model shop time today, been over in the bigger wood shop putting together a stairway extension for the logging museum up in Maine. They have some portable steps that they put next to the steam Lombard for visitors to get up into the cab for rides, but the steps come up a little short of the cab floor:
(https://i.postimg.cc/G2GVJ3r9/DSC-3961.jpg)
That makes it tough for older/younger visitors to get up there, and there have been a couple close calls on slips. So, I got some aluminum square tube and am making up an extension off the back of it that will give two more steps and make things a lot easier. It will bolt to the back riser on the existing stairs.
(https://i.postimg.cc/MZtdkfsq/IMG-4706a.jpg)
A couple more bolts and its ready to take up to the museum next time I head up there...
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Good to see you stepping up your game! :Lol:
Best wishes for a great 2023! :cheers:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Good to see you stepping up your game! :Lol:
Best wishes for a great 2023! :cheers:
First pun of the new year! :Jester:
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And first parts of the new year! Made up the crosshead guide plate rails today. These will bolt onto the guide plates on the vertical wall behind the engine, and an overhanging lip holds the plate on the crosshead from moving out from the plate. As I usually do when making multiples of a small part, started with longer lengths of steel bar. This is tool steel, and the sides were slightly rounded which makes holding it in the vise difficult so first milled the two sides flat, then set up to drill sets of holes for the mounting bolts.
(https://i.postimg.cc/fWCVvgXC/IMG-2763.jpg)
then flipped the rails up on their side to mill in the recess to form the lip
(https://i.postimg.cc/fTgkGt80/IMG-2764.jpg)
and down flat again to take it to final thickness
(https://i.postimg.cc/3JwdfCFT/IMG-2765.jpg)
Here they are cut apart and the ends trimmed
(https://i.postimg.cc/8zJsNpYX/IMG-2766.jpg)
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Its finally Piston Head Day. Chucked a piece of 3/4" stainless round bar, turned the outside to be just a hair under the ID of the cylinder to let the o-ring do the sealing, and used a parting tool to cut the grooves for the Viton o-rings. And this time remembered to go sharpen the end of the parting tool before starting, don't always remember that one. I cut and fit both rings, one for each piston, on the one bar before parting off. They are a slightly tight fit dry, but with a drop of oil they slide smooth, which is my standard. Final tweaks to the depth were done with a flat file that only has teeh on the edges, light touches with that while its spinning are good for taking off that last elf-eyelash-thickness, testing the fit between.
(https://i.postimg.cc/XYN21vsh/IMG-2767.jpg)
The top ends were countersunk in to leave room for the nut on the ends of the piston rod. With the construction of these cylinders and crossheads, I am going to just use the medium strength blue loctite on the threads to keep them from working loose, but allowing for disassembly if needed for any reason, since the piston rods can't be unscrewed from the crosshead.
(https://i.postimg.cc/k5BT9p3v/IMG-2768.jpg)
Finished pistons!
(https://i.postimg.cc/DwCx9KDz/IMG-2769.jpg)
Getting close to trial runs, still to go are the valve bodies, some filler/paint work on the cylinders, and the piping from the control valve.
:cheers:
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Pistons look excellent! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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oh yes, i like it a lot!
Now fight a little with the copper pipe and screw connections and then we can start. It is a special challenge with this machine. You have to have all the parts in place to do a dry run.
Michael
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Thanks guys. Still need to make the valve spools, then the pipes. The pipes should be fairly easy to bend, am going around the back by the sides like one of the other engines you showed, though the elbows and tees by the control valve will be fIddly to fit.
In the meantime I have started the filler and paint on the cylinders, am trying out the acrylic paint system that I have used on my wood carvings.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Got started on the valve spools today. Turned a piece of bronze rod round first (comes as continuous cast roughly round) then turned the ends down, slightly oversize from the final OD, and notched in at the ends/middle to determine the shape of the spool. In the center, only went in about 5 thou, will use that as a guide position in the milling steps to come. This was done on both ends of the bar, leaving a section in the middle to grip in the chuck.
(https://i.postimg.cc/D0wTkpXh/IMG-2770.jpg)
Then over to the mill to start shaping in the recessed are in the center. I am doing this like Jo diagramed in an earlier post (thanks Jo!) and leaving a rib down one side for the steam passage to connect the ends. This valve body is only 0.330" OD at the widest, with a 5-40 threaded hole down the middle, so not much room otherwise for the passage. I marked out the section to leave un-recessed, and did a series of passes with an end mill, turning the rod between each pass.
(https://i.postimg.cc/y8ZzHZkD/IMG-2771.jpg)
Here is the section left un-milled:
(https://i.postimg.cc/FFTvgvMH/IMG-2772.jpg)
and the rest taken back:
(https://i.postimg.cc/5yKMx5BC/IMG-2773.jpg)
The guide lines from the parting tool gave me the limit to mill up to. I am doing all this before turning the OD of the raised ends since its always possible for the bar to warp slightly due to milling it on one side more than the other, and I want the final ends to be parallel.
So, back to the lathe to get the center hole drilled, this will be tapped 5-40 to let it be adjustable for position on the valve rod.
(https://i.postimg.cc/15TZ2H5x/IMG-2774.jpg)
Then set up to drill the steam passage down the side. Being such a narrow bar, I decided to drill two smaller holes rather than one large one and risk breaking through the sides.
(https://i.postimg.cc/L6hpx7SB/IMG-2775.jpg)
Next I'll get the center hole threaded, and set up on the lathe to turn the ends down to be a proper fit in the valve bore in the cylinder block. That will likely be tomorrow..
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
First solid gold machining of 2023! Looking great.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
First solid gold machining of 2023! Looking great.
Wish I could sell the bronze swarf at gold prices! :cheers:
With the time into the valves so far, I'm going to be taking the trimming of the OD down to be a fit in the bores very carefully.
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Very clever design on the valve there!
Kim
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Very clever design on the valve there!
Kim
Jo gets the bow there!
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Major milestone today, got the valve spools trimmed down to final OD to fit the bores! :cartwheel: The bores needed a little finish lapping with fine lapping compound to get rid of a couple sticky spots where the passages had been drilled through, but the valves are moving smoothly without wobble, and they pass the blow test through the center inlet. Moving the valve back and forth by hand it goes from no air coming out the ports to the one on either side. :whoohoo:
(https://i.postimg.cc/sDvY9tfR/IMG-2777.jpg)
I marked the positions that the air would go through either side with the valve movement, and its currently 70 thou, which is a little on the long side. I also visually checked the movement needed to expose the end ports, that is about 40 thou, which seems like a good starting point. I had left the center span slightly short on purpose, I want to be able to dial in the valve overlaps to the actual port positions, rather than machining all the way in at first and risk going too far, having to remake the spools. So, another day of fine adjustments, and I should be able to assemble all the little parts and hook up an air line to one cylinder at a time, and see what moves. Going to take this stage slow and methodical, don't want to rush and trim too far.
Also got a couple coats of black paint on the cylinders/caps, so they are looking quite different now. Good place to break for lunch, and have some errands to do later too. Back at it tomorrow!
:cheers: :cheers:
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8) Nice one Chris
Jo
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Chris, looks cast iron now. 👍
The original piston valves also have no piston rings and I'm glad you got it so tight.
Michael
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I'm reading along and thinking - what's that part? Took me a while to figure out it was the cylinder, just painted. Then I got to the last line in your post where you fessed up about painting! And yes, it really DOES change the look, doesn't it? :popcorn:
Kim
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I think those cylinders are just in from the foundry Kim, never mind this "paint" gag Chris mentioned. :Lol:
Just kidding around, they and the valve spools look great! :cheers:
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I think those cylinders are just in from the foundry Kim, never mind this "paint" gag Chris mentioned. :Lol:
Just kidding around, they and the valve spools look great! :cheers:
The tricky part was printing up that scale German newspaper behind the cylinders! Oh, wait, that is Michael's picture of the real cylinders! :Jester:
Thanks guys, very close to being able to see movement of some sort on this model. I'm going to just run in some screws as plugs for the holes where the drain cocks will be and test without gaskets to speed up the test.
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Big progress this morning. The cylinders/valves have been assembled on the model (twice so far :embarassed: ) and the valves are timed. The holes through the valves are making timing changes easy, I can use those holes in the top of the valve spools to turn the valves to move them up and down. With the drain plugs out at the bottom of the cylinder and the cylinder caps off, I turned the engine over by hand and noted when the air was coming out each drain hole. Adjusted till they timed out at the same point at top and bottom of the rotation, and done. It turns out that I like the length of the center opening in the spools as is, not going to adjust them like I thought, at least yet.
Have not tried running it with the air line hooked up to be outside admission, since there is a sticky spot when rotating the engine in the other direction. It looks like I goofed slightly on the spacing for the crosshead guide plate on the right hand cylinder, and there is a little bit of a gap between the guide and the wall plate, causing the piston to rock slightly at the bottom of the stroke when turning in that direction. I'll need to pad that up to get the alignment proper there. The one on the left cylinder is fine as is.
So, here are some pictures of what it looks like now, getting to look a lot more like Michaels engine!
(https://i.postimg.cc/L8B7MVvy/IMG-2779.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/7LHRPTWq/IMG-2780.jpg)
I made up the gaskets for the top caps and ran it on the compressor, one cylinder at a time since that shows up any timing issues a lot better than starting out with both connected (also don't have the piping made to hook up both! ). Gave it some pressure, and noticed two things. One, the right cylinder pops the piston up and down perfectly, with just the dead spot at top/bottom of the stroke that is expected. :cartwheel: Two, the left cylinder also runs great, except that there is a fair amount of air blowing past the valve. That is the one thing I don't like about spool valves, they are so hard to get sized perfectly, and the only adjustment is to make another one. I'll have to see how it performs with both cylinders to decide if I'll try and make another valve spool. Even with the leakage, it makes enough pressure to move the piston well. Overall, very happy with this initial test!
I am really glad that these engines have the clutches to disconnect the feedback gears for manual steering - with the lower clutch disengaged I can run the engine both directions as long as I want without turning the upper gear shafts. That is very useful!
So, I think the next steps will be to start in on making the pipes to connect both cylinders, and also work on fixing the right hand crosshead guide fitment. I have not installed the guide rails on either cylinder yet, that will require working in very tight spaces and I only want to do that once!
Thanks for looking in! :cheers: :cheers:
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I'll say! That IS big progress! It really does look like Michaels's full-sized steering engine! It looks great, Chris! Can't wait to see the video of it all going :) :popcorn:
Kim
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oh yes, a perfect likeness!
The piston valves on the big machine are not 100 percent tight either. Nevertheless, things are going well. A tight changeover valve (the control valve) is more important.
And yes, if you disengage the upper shaft, the motor turns consistently in one direction. Or the other direction.
You did a nice piece of work!
Michael
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It looks amazing! Well done!
John
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :cheers:
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Thanks guys!
Tonight had an idea while getting ready for bed (telling stories to the shop elves about the early days working with Santa, etc :Jester: ), about another easier way to fix the alignment on the right cylinder crosshead guide. Earlier today I had played with some shims between the crosshead and the plate on the vertical wall, and it is 0.040" out too far leaving a gap, and if I pull that in with the cap rails it binds up partway down the stroke. I had been thinking that I needed to thicken up that face on the crosshead, but that would also mean having to extend the cap rails out farther, which encroaches on the already tight spaces to the worm wheel in front of the inside cap rail.
The idea I had was to instead elongate the mount holes on the bracket on the back of the cylinder block, so I can just tighten the cylinder down on its mount .040" farther back towards the wall. The posts in front have enough flex in them so they are not a problem. A few minutes with the rotary tool ought to solve the whole problem, which I think was caused by measuring the distance from the piston rod to the back wall before making and installing the piston head, so the rod was not quite vertical when I measured things. The head on the screws in the mounts will cover the elongated holes no problem, and it just requires unbolting the cylinder from the engine to get access to the holes, the piston and valve can stay in place, just pull the pivot pins down below.
Assuming that works, I can get started on the pipes that much quicker!
:cheers:
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Great news that i runs :ThumbsUp:
I'm sure that you will end up with a good solution for the right cylinders crosshead guide too :cheers:
Per
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Chris, as you can see here, long holes were common as early as 1897.
Michael :cheers:
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Chris, as you can see here, long holes were common as early as 1897.
Michael :cheers:
Excellent, so I didn't make a mistake with the measurements, I was being accurate to the original! I like that story better! :Lol:
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Elongating the holes slightly did the trick, things are all moving well now!
I've started in on the pipes, more on that later...
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
I didn't know you played the bagpipes! How about "the Campbell's are comin'" ? .....oh wait.....steam pipes..... :Lol:
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This morning I got the parts silver soldered, they are in soaking in vinegar to clean them up. While waiting for that, I went back to the national archives site and did some more poking around in the ship plans section, and found they have the collection of plan sheets for two of the steam powered winches on the Kearsarge as well as the steering engine. Both look pretty straightforward, and may find their way into the build queue at some point. ^-^
One bit of terminology that I don't understand, likely one of you will know. On the 15x14" engine/windlass, they call it a "15x14 Inverted Link Reversing Engine". It is the "Inverted Link" part I don't get. It uses a standard Stephenson link for the reverse gear on it, and the crankshaft/piston look typical too. Not sure what is inverted. Here is a scaled down snippet from the plans showing the general arrangement:
(https://i.postimg.cc/SK4z8NGT/RG19-ALPHA-Kearsarge-class-Battleships-276a.jpg)
The engine sits upright on the base next to the windlass, so the engine itself is not inverted. Any ideas what that term means?
Thanks!
I've been working away on making a 3D CAD version of those anchor windlass plans from the Kearsarge, would make a great future project. The plans were very complete, just a couple missing dimensions, so the CAD work went pretty quickly (lots of practice in it the last couple years!) The steam engine is a 15" bore, 14" stroke, two cylinder non-compound twin, with stephenson reverse links.
Here is a screen shot:
(https://i.postimg.cc/sXzGNq32/Kearsarge-Anchor-Windlass-CAD.jpg)
Overall a pretty standard engine, there was just one thing I had to go research - each side of the windlass (in orange) can be engaged/disengaged so it could haul on one or both of the anchor chains. Each has a brake band (red) used to stop and/or control the rate it lowers at. There are pawls inside the windlass halves, with rings that can be rotated to engage them - the plans however only showed all the individual parts, no drawing of how they all fit together in a giant 3D jigsaw puzzle. Was able to find a patent online that showed a very similar setup from another company, after seeing those drawings it was a head-slap and 'of course thats how it works'!
Anyway, this goes on the projects pile... The drawings also show another smaller engine that sat next to this one and drove two rope drums, used to handle docking lines, move anchors from storage positions to the lowering position, that sort of thing. That will be drawn up too, would make a neat pair for a model...
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This morning I got the pipes and fittings cut, soldered, and installed:
(https://i.postimg.cc/1XHTLf2j/IMG-2782.jpg)
Tight quarters to get the fittings connected on the control valve, but went easy when I realized I needed to install the bottom set first then the top ones.
So, all that remained was to hook up the compressor, make sure the clutch on the lower shaft was disengaged to let the engine run free, and give it some pressure. And we are off! It runs well in one direction, but it looks like the travel on the control valve needs to be re-centered, since it doesn't quite open enough in the other direction. I'll pull off the connectors on one end to double-check that, to make sure there isn't a partially clogged pipe fitting. The engine took off well, so I grabbed the camera:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OXHwmFRyHU
Very happy with that progress! :whoohoo: :pinkelephant: :cartwheel: :DrinkPint: Will get the control valve checked later, may need to adjust the piston valves too to get it dialed in smoothly.
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Fantastic, Chris. That's really awesome! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :cheers:
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Chris, absolutely fantastic!
Congratulations on this section. You will manage the rest.
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Michael
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Well, I found what may be the problem, at least one of them! Was tracing down the air flow, and the control valve does need some recentering, but in addition to that there is a big air leak at the bottom of the valve on the left hand cylinder. Checked into that some more, and found that I forgot to put the o-ring into the gland on the valve rod! :Doh: :facepalm: :facepalm2: :wallbang: :hammerbash: :killcomputer: :zap: :slap:
Time to break for lunch, will get those things fixed this afternoon. Without the ring, it almost runs in that direction, it pops over about 3/4 of a turn then stalls, with the leak fix it should go. I took the drain plugs out of the cylinders and turned it over by hand, seeing when/where the air came out of the cylinder ends in relation to the crankshaft, and that looks fine.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: She's a runner! :cheers:
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cool drawings for the winches, I'll have to poke around at the archives site,, the armoured cruiser USS Brooklyn had upright steam engines on her 2 boat cranes and main boom, never had got ahold of good details on them!!
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: She's a runner! :cheers:
Well, she's a runner in one direction, a jogger in the other! :Lol:
Spent some more time in the shop after lunch, got the leak on the left side valve rod fixed, and got the control valve centered up. Then started tweaking the valve timings a little bit, experimenting with half turns one way and the other to get each cylinder behaving better. Now, the first direction, when it is center admission, is even smoother and will run slower, so going better there. The other direction, with the valves in outside admission mode, will run by itself, but it has a stutter at the same spot in every rotation. Usually a sign of either pressure not getting in or stopping at the right time, or the exhaust not opening soon enough, causing back pressure. I think the exhaust timing is the problem, because of one interesting behavior: I was opening the drain valves to check when pressure was starting/stopping on each side of each piston, and when I opened the valve on the top of the left cylinder, it takes off and runs very smooth in either direction! :thinking: On the outside-admission direction, with the drains closed, the stall is happening when the left piston is coming up, and it stalls about 1/3 of the way up and takes off once it gets to about 1/2 way up. My initial thought is that the exhaust port is not opening soon enough and it is back pressuring the piston. Going to do some experiments about that by checking the other direction operation with the drains open to see when that port is opening/closing.
But, thats enough tinkering for one day, the brain is overheating trying to keep track of everything, I know that it will be a lot more productive to walk away, reset, and start again tomorrow. It is VERY close to running well both directions, and that usually takes longer than this. Not having the Stephenson linkage for reversing makes this engine a lot different than any I've done before, maybe with the exception of the Marion crown/slew engines which used a similar reversing trick. Its possible that I will need to trim the length of the spool valve slightly, but I want to be sure before doing that!
Thanks for looking in, more tomorrow! :cheers:
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cool drawings for the winches, I'll have to poke around at the archives site,, the armoured cruiser USS Brooklyn had upright steam engines on her 2 boat cranes and main boom, never had got ahold of good details on them!!
Yeah, they have lots of stuff there, and what I've heard back from them is that they are digitizing a lot more of the ship plans and will be posting more online, was supposed to be more this winter. I've done a number of searches of whats online for more generic terms and combinations of terms like 'steam', ' engine', 'winch', 'windlass', and have not found much else on other ships yet. Thier catalog shows a lot more plans in the collection, but only a fraction is online so far. If you go to their physical location you can see the paper plans for everything, but are limited in how many copies you can make per day. With the stuff online, the images are high resolution and can be downloaded for free, which is great. I keep checking back every month to see if more has been posted, nothing since last summer. They do have a lot on earlier sailing ships.
The Kearsarge had this chain windlass with the upright engine, with another rope winch and engine with an inverted engine, the engine hanging down under the same deck to save space and keep them close together, which is an interesting arrangement. I'm going to be modelling that one up soon, it is a 8" piston/8" stroke twin engine, very similar to this one just smaller and upside down.
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cool drawings for the winches, I'll have to poke around at the archives site,, the armoured cruiser USS Brooklyn had upright steam engines on her 2 boat cranes and main boom, never had got ahold of good details on them!!
I was looking on the archives site just now for a plans sheet for the rope windlass that I had missed downloading (found it), and also did a search for 'Brooklyn'. They have just a few sheets for it, but they include two arrangment drawings for a steam launch and steam gig.
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:popcornsmall: :drinking-41:
Don
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Yippii :cheers: :popcorn: :cheers:
Congratulations, congratulations, for he ........ :cartwheel:
Well, she's a runner in one direction, a jogger in the other! :Lol:
That still a Lot better than many other first tries - it could have been stillborn ;)
Per
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Thanks Don/Per! :cheers:
Went in to the shop this morning and did a systematic check on everything to determine why it doesn't like to run in outside-admission mode. Everything adjusted, checked, ran with drains open/closed, checked piston seals, all the combinations. I believe it comes down to the left hand piston valve having too much blow by, which I had noticed early on but was hoping would work anyway. It doesn't work quite well enough, and I'll need to remake that one valve body which is not a big deal. I was able to run it in the inside-admission direction with the clutch engaged, and the engine ran the gears around and shut off the control valve like its supposed to, so that is excellent!
So, today I'll pull that cylinder off and make a new piston valve body for it. The lengths are good so I'll copy that, just needs to be a few thou larger diameter to seal better. Thanks for watching along, hopefully more news this afternoon or tomorrow morning!
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I wish you luck !
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Wow, Chris! This is a big step! I'm sure you'll get it worked out so it runs smoothly in both directions soon. Can't wait for the video ;D :popcorn:
Kim
PS For some reason, I missed all the new posts on this thread yesterday! I don't know how that happened. I was on line several times and saw lots of other updates but I completely missed this one... Hmm.... :-[ Ah well. I saw it now! Better late that never, right? :embarassed:
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Thanks guys! Kim, I noticed that yesterday there were a lot more posts than normal, it probably got aged off the page quickly. Getting behind just let you binge-watch! :Lol:
Got the new valve body made, as usual it went a lot faster the second time around. It did help a fair bit, but still acting up, the top end is better but still leaking on the lower end. Been doing a lot more experimenting and tweaking. Found two more issues. The packing gland for the left side valve rod is leaking pretty bad, that will be an easy fix with some extra packing.
The other issue will require more work - when I had the left valve out and fitting the new one, I looked down the bore with a light shining in the other end. It looks like when I did the boring operations the cutter must have been flexing as it went over the ports, and there is a wider ring around the bore where the port holes come in - that would explain the nasty leaks and blow by. I need to check what reamers I have, might use one to slightly widen then bore out to that diameter. Setting up to use the boring head would be pretty tricky now that the base blocks are removed. Another alternative would be a thin liner into the existing bore - I used that approach on the Stanly engine since milling the ports any other way was difficult. In that one I made thin cast iron bore liners, cut in the ports, then glued them in place. If I went that route the valve body would need to be made smaller. If the other way, would need to make a larger one. Hmm, or combine the two, ream out the bore AND make a liner!
Going to take some thinking time on that one.
In the meantime, I had been camped out at the mailbox in the afternoons waiting for the magazine copies for the Marion article (they send four copies to each author). It turns out that the delays in the press room last month ran into the office staff vacations over the holidays, and the copies didn't get mailed till today. So, you should hear a 'yippee' in the distance in a couple days (they send them priority mail so SHOULD be here Wednesday or Thursday, post office willing). I've been hearing about postal strikes over in England - any one of you over there getting mail at all lately? Here its mainly been weather delays.
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Those English postal strikes aren't like Peter Plunkett's persistent postal strike in "High Spirits" are they?
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Chris- I got my issue of LS with your Marion/Face on the cover last week.
Haven't read through it yet, but looks good.
Sid
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Chris- I got my issue of LS with your Marion/Face on the cover last week.
Haven't read through it yet, but looks good.
Sid
:cheers: :happyreader:
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Was off doing other things this morning, but this afternoon picked a reamer for the valve bore, just a little bigger than what was there, and clamped the cylinder down on the mill table to run the reamer in. It stops short of the bottom, since the lower end is threaded for the gland, so no worries about hitting the table.
(https://i.postimg.cc/s1FQTTy4/IMG-2784.jpg)
Next up will be to make another valve body to fit the new bore (getting good at that now, practice practice practice! ) and get it all reassembled.
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Wheee! It runs both directions now! :whoohoo: :pinkelephant: :cartwheel: :wine1: 8)
Made up a new valve body to fit the slightly larger bore that the reamer left, got it all bolted together again, gave it a rough visual timing, and off it went!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJUW1gwSp5I
Major milestone! It just needs a little adjustment to the timing to smooth out the action, get the lock nuts all in place, and I want to do one more turn on the control valve centering. Then I can do some testing with driving the rest of the gear train for real, then make/install studs/nuts on the cylinder caps and do a little touch up painting. After that, I can move on to the final stages of the model, making the base which will include the chain drive leading back to the rudder post/quadrant, to show how the rudder actually moves based on the engine movements.
Thanks for following along so far, getting close to the finish line! (can you tell I'm very happy with this? ;D )
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It also runs much much smoother now (in both directions) than the first video :cartwheel: :ThumbsUp:
Did you press the new one in or ...? :cheers:
Per
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It also runs much much smoother now (in both directions) than the first video :cartwheel: :ThumbsUp:
Did you press the new one in or ...? :cheers:
Per
I used a reamer to open up the bore on that one valve slightly and smooth it all out - showed a picture of that a couple posts back today. Made a new valve body, and it fits/seals much better. The right hand cylinder is unchanged, just did it to the left one that was acting so strange. Found a reamer that was 10 thou larger than the original bore, and that cleaned it all up, can JUST see a little color from where the chatter was before, so that tells me how much gap there was in that section.
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Well done, Chris! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
Running in both directions. That is a real milestone! :cheers:
Kim
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: she's a (smoother, bidirectional) runner! :cheers:
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following your progress great to hear it is running
i don't get the you tube video
john
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following your progress great to hear it is running
i don't get the you tube video
john
That video didn't play for you? Are others from the forum working or is it just this one?
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The embedded YouTube video worked fine for me. John, could it be something specific to your situation?
Kim
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Hi Chris, it works just as well with the shaft disengaged as it does with its big sister 👍
Michael
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Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6EmYq13Xkw
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Perfect time for a comparison video Michael! This morning I got the valve timings fine tuned, the control valve made a little more sensitive, and everything reassembled. The shop elves called in their buddies from the fire brigade just in case (think its really for a party) when I went to test it all out with the clutch re-engaged.
(https://i.postimg.cc/HkgScGjY/IMG-2786.jpg)
Here is a video of it running back and forth in response to the steering wheel:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hccM68MG294
:whoohoo: :whoohoo: :cartwheel: :cartwheel:
Really pleased with how it is running! One thing I noticed is that I want to extend the travel on the limit screw at the top/front of the engine wall, that brass tube sticking out above the worm wheel, to get a little more travel out of the control mechanism, that will just need a little filing at the end of the slot on top.
Will likely be playing with it more this afternoon, about to head out for lunch with some friends. Tomorrow I can make the drain valves and the studs/nuts for the cylinder caps, and get the paint all touched up. Then I need to plan out the base for it and the lead of the chains back to the rudder quadrant.
:cheers:
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👏👏👏🍻🍻🍻
absolutely perfect!
I congratulate you on your success. The rest is pure easy work.
Michael
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👏👏👏🍻🍻🍻
absolutely perfect!
I congratulate you on your success. The rest is pure easy work.
Michael
Thanks Michael, could not have done this project without all your help on the real engine!! :ThumbsUp: :cheers:
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Truly amazing results Chris love it…. :Love:
:drinking-41:
Don
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Outstanding! Congratulations, Chris! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :cheers:
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Congratulations! A beautiful model, excellent work done!
:cheers:
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Whether there was a valve and a manometer at this point I cannot say with certainty. Maybe you want to do it that way too.
It was my pleasure to provide information. Too bad the two machines will never find each other. It would be a big show at an exhibition.
:cheers:
Michael
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It would be wonderful to see them side by side, but its a really really long drive!
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You might need a LOT more air in the tires, too, to drive direct to Germany from New York State....
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the workshop elves could row a boat across the pond and up the Elbe in Hamburg...........
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You might need a LOT more air in the tires, too, to drive direct to Germany from New York State....
the workshop elves could row a boat across the pond and up the Elbe in Hamburg...........
:lolb:
I'm not sure I'd trust their navigation skills, although the side-trips to all the other European countries along the way to sample the beers would be fun... :DrinkPint:
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That's Amazing! :praise2: :NotWorthy: :praise2: :NotWorthy: :praise2: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
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Wonderful, Chris! Amazing to see it going back and forth like that with the fancy feedback control valve! :praise2:
Kim
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other you tube links don't show either
the pictures look great.
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Hello dear workshop elves, (I hope he's not reading along now),
Yes, I have free beer 🍺 🍺 🍺 🍺 🍺..........we have a lot of beer here...........
What does that tell you?!
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other you tube links don't show either
the pictures look great.
That's odd, they are working for other people. Maybe a setting in your browser? I am seeing everyone's videos here. :headscratch:
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Hello dear workshop elves, (I hope he's not reading along now),
Yes, I have free beer 🍺 🍺 🍺 🍺 🍺..........we have a lot of beer here...........
What does that tell you?!
It tells me that you should answer the door, we've been out front knocking for twenty minutes! :Lol:
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I'm only buying beer. how much do you drink
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I'm only buying beer. how much do you drink
That looks good for one round for an elf... !
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This morning I made up the four cylinder drain valves. They are so useful for timing the engines, I wanted them to be working, so took a length of brass hex bar, threaded one end 5-40, drilled through with a #56 drill, and drilled/tapped the other end 2-56 for the valve stem. One side was cross drilled #56 for the outlet, in the area where the valve stem will thread past. Another bit of brass threaded/filed to make the handle.
(https://i.postimg.cc/CK7w5Bpw/IMG-2790.jpg)
Here is one of the top ones installed
(https://i.postimg.cc/gJ0mZzG8/IMG-2791.jpg)
Then made up the studs for the cylinder/valve caps, got them installed, and did some paint touch-up:
(https://i.postimg.cc/mD6R3vrq/IMG-2793.jpg)
In the foreground you can see the chains/sprockets to take the output of the engine and send it to the rudder, so it can do some real work. I made up these two sprockets when I made the one on the lower shaft. The roller chain is .125 pitch, its the smallest metal roller chain I've been able to find. That will take the power from the engine out to the sides, where it will switch to some normal link chain to turn the corners and go back to the rudder quadrant.
Michael very kindly shared some pictures with me of how the rudder parts looked on these ships, so I am going to copy that arrangement. They used a large wheel to wrap the chain around, that has a pivot/slot arrangement to move the tiller on top of the rudder post. I'll measure the distance the chain actually moves on my model to determine how big to make the wheel.
(https://i.postimg.cc/4xbg27dp/Rudder-IMG-20220825-214322-1080-x-1440-pixel.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/jjxrpxwm/Rudder-IMG-20221006-225628-1080-x-543-pixel.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/tgBHyKFT/Rudder-IMG-20221006-225642-1080-x-627-pixel.jpg)
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Hello Chris, I like the drainage valves. A simple construction.
There is an oil reservoir on top of the cylinder. Here, too, the model could quickly get a drop of oil in the cylinder.
The box for oil to the joints may not be necessary.
Greetings Michael
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The oilers would be a great detail, but at this scale it may be too tiny. :thinking:
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The one time work is to make a drill.
I made two sizes. The drill made of silver steel and hardened. The taper is set at 4° on the lathe. (So it is in the standards book for steam locomotives of the Deutsche Reichsbahn) Then produce a lot of blanks with the same setting. With thread. The other side can be processed with a device for the cones. And you always need these little valves.
Michael
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I have a taper reamer/drill set for 4/0 taper pins, which is about 1.1 degrees from centerline to edge, 2.2 included angle. Would that be too fine an angle, and make it bind too much?
On the ones you've made, what are the diameters? Any chance you could do a measured drawing of one of those valves? They look great!
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Good news: the magazine copies arrived.
Bad news: the shop elves are upset that THEY are not on the cover too! (even though they have their own column in it)
(https://i.postimg.cc/2j7nmm6m/IMG-2794.jpg)
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Chris, I'll do a drawing tomorrow.
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Just suggest that maybe they'd be happier back in the North Pole with nothing but candy canes for breakfast, lunch, and dinner and several billion toys to make where zero degrees F seems like a heat spell.
I mean these guys are lounging around reading a magazine while their steam shovel sits around idle. Why back in my day we'd work 25 hours a day, eat five pounds of dust for lunch with only our spittle for refreshment, and call ourselves lucky! :old:
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Just suggest that maybe they'd be happier back in the North Pole with nothing but candy canes for breakfast, lunch, and dinner and several billion toys to make where zero degrees F seems like a heat spell.
I mean these guys are lounging around reading a magazine while their steam shovel sits around idle. Why back in my day we'd work 25 hours a day, eat five pounds of dust for lunch with only our spittle for refreshment, and call ourselves lucky! :old:
You got time to eat dust for lunch? Slacker! :lolb:
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Chris, I'll do a drawing tomorrow.
Great, thanks! Looks like a great addition to any model.
I took measurements of how far the chain moves on the model, and worked out how big to make the rudder quadrant wheel and tiller. It will be fun to get it actually moving the rudder.
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Chris - Speaking of chains - might be time to remind the shop elves about the chain - of command! :Lol:
Steve - you forgot to mention the 5 mile walk to work and back - both ways up hill! (I think I have worked some places you did) :Lol:
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Just suggest that maybe they'd be happier back in the North Pole with nothing but candy canes for breakfast, lunch, and dinner and several billion toys to make where zero degrees F seems like a heat spell.
I mean these guys are lounging around reading a magazine while their steam shovel sits around idle. Why back in my day we'd work 25 hours a day, eat five pounds of dust for lunch with only our spittle for refreshment, and call ourselves lucky! :old:
We had it rough! We got up a half hour before we went to bed and licked the road clean with our tongues and eat a lump of dry poison for breakfast. Then our dad would cut us in half with a bread knife and dance on top of our graves singing halleluiah!
You tell that to kids these days and they won't believe you. :ROFL:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Chris - Speaking of chains - might be time to remind the shop elves about the chain - of command! :Lol:
Steve - you forgot to mention the 5 mile walk to work and back - both ways up hill! (I think I have worked some places you did) :Lol:
Well, I tried the chain of command speach, they tied me up with the chain. I'm typing this with my nose... :Jester:
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Just suggest that maybe they'd be happier back in the North Pole with nothing but candy canes for breakfast, lunch, and dinner and several billion toys to make where zero degrees F seems like a heat spell.
I mean these guys are lounging around reading a magazine while their steam shovel sits around idle. Why back in my day we'd work 25 hours a day, eat five pounds of dust for lunch with only our spittle for refreshment, and call ourselves lucky! :old:
We had it rough! We got up a half hour before we went to bed and licked the road clean with our tongues and eat a lump of dry poison for breakfast. Then our dad would cut us in half with a bread knife and dance on top of our graves singing halleluiah!
You tell that to kids these days and they won't believe you. :ROFL:
:lolb:
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Poison for breakfast? Pure luxury, that. We did the same and even then were only allowed five days in our week, straight from Friday to Monday again with nothing in between. Try that without daylight and you'll be singing a different tune!
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:Lol: :Lol: :Lol: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
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Apparently this thread is now Steering towards Monty Python :LittleDevil:
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The small oiler is still 20 mm high. But I think you can make it a little bit smaller. Make the reamer a little thinner.
Michael
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Thats terrific Michael! Great proportions on those, just like the real ones. I'll make some up. Thanks again!!
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This morning I got started on the system of chains and rollers for the rudder movement. Started with a pair of hubs for the sprockets I had made earlier, and a vertical rail for them to attach to - they spin freely on the pins. The plate for them plus the engine will all be bolted down to a deck plate. These two rollers guide the chain straight down from the lower gear shaft, then turn the chains at right angles out to the sides.
(https://i.postimg.cc/ncRpNHsC/IMG-2795.jpg)
Out next to the engine, the roller chains will transition to normal link chains that will lead around a pair of rollers to head back towards the rudder at the stern.
(https://i.postimg.cc/P5CTjBZK/IMG-2797.jpg)
I have the rudder and quadrant designed up in Fusion, will start in on those parts next. They are based on the drawings and pictures that Michael sent me of the real thing. On the real ship, the chains would have been led down through decks as needed to get to the level of the stern, for this model I am going to just lead them on top of the 'deck' plate that the model will sit on, to keep the model a manageable size.
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Had no idea that valve was so small! Beautiful. Chains are looking great, too. :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Making more of the parts for the rudder - this is the wheel that the chains wrap around at the stern.
(https://i.postimg.cc/85PdDt7b/IMG-2798.jpg)
Started laying out for the deck plate - didn't have a good piece of aluminum, but taking a page from Willy's book I do have a stack of 1/4" thick plexiglass sheets that are large enough, so I am using one of those instead, will get all the holes drilled then paint it deck grey. The chain rollers will screw into the plate, and the mounting bolts for the engine frame will be drilled through with nuts on top of the frame.
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Had no idea that valve was so small! Beautiful. Chains are looking great, too. :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
That was the valve that Michael made for one of his models - perfect proportions. I am going to do some experiments on the taper drill, will see if the one I have for the taper pins will work or if I need to make a larger angle on it. I'll adapt his drawing to the tap/dies I have on hand, and see how small I can make a working one. Seems like a good thing to mass produce a bunch of, they would come in handy on many models!
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So are you ending up building a small Diorama, ala the stern with boiler, Engine, rudder, prop, Steering Engine and Wheelhouse ;D
No matter - it all adds up to a great display :praise2:
Per
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So are you ending up building a small Diorama, ala the stern with boiler, Engine, rudder, prop, Steering Engine and Wheelhouse ;D
No matter - it all adds up to a great display :praise2:
Per
Um, ... No! :Lol: Just a mockup of how the chains connect back to the rudder - at 1:6 scale, doing all the rest would be an enormous model!
Michael did find a book on building a model of the same engine that is on the ships that this steering engine came from, a very interesting oscilliating twin, but that would be a completely seperate build, I'm hoping he builds a model of it sometime.
I've got enough in the want-to-build list already to keep me going for quite a while. I heard back again from Stuart Models on the column casting I ordered for their steam hammer (I bought the plans from them, going to scratch build most of it, just getting the big column piece from them) back around end of November. They didn't have any in stock, sounds like the current owners have not made any of that kit since they took over, and are having to modify the pattern to work with their current process/tools, and that is expected to ship in a few weeks. Also have plans for the battleship Ohio main engine (4 cylinder triple expansion), the steering engine from the battleship Kearsarge, anchor chain and rope windlass engines from the Kearsarge (screen shot below), want to rework the Ransome tree saw valving and get that working, um, lets see, oh yes, also have original plans I converted to CAD for two more giant water pumping engines (from the Boston and Cleveland waterworks museums). Found plans for a number of the Herreshoff marine engines at MIT. Am sure something else will pop up and scream 'build me' before I make a dent in that list, they always do!
(https://i.postimg.cc/L54NhmhG/Kearsarge-Winch-And-Windlass-CAD.jpg)
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Got the deck plate cut, drilled, painted, and bolted on:
(https://i.postimg.cc/Qt36GQD8/IMG-2799.jpg)
Lots o little screws around the engine bed, they need to be painted...
(https://i.postimg.cc/85mZ17kh/IMG-2800.jpg)
To give the gray paint a better chance at sticking to the plexi, it was given a quick sanding with coarse grit sandpaper first.
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Chris, it looks good the way you set it up.
Do I now also have to place a second Euro pallet behind the machine? 😦
For a rudder blade.
I have no more space. The idea of building it like this is good. Most people don't know what the machine is doing.
Michael
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looking very very nice :NotWorthy: here's a photo of one of the brooklyn's boat cranes,, look at the exposed gears everywhere..
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looking very very nice :NotWorthy: here's a photo of one of the brooklyn's boat cranes,, look at the exposed gears everywhere..
Thats a great picture - all the gears on that deck level and below, steam engine on the left, all function.
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Chris, it looks good the way you set it up.
Do I now also have to place a second Euro pallet behind the machine? 😦
For a rudder blade.
I have no more space. The idea of building it like this is good. Most people don't know what the machine is doing.
Michael
What if you ran the chain back to the wall with a pulley there to turn the chain upwards, and put the wheel and rudder outlines up vertically on the wall? Could make it move with the engine that way but not take up floor space.
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A little side experiment. Back several years when I built the Marion steam shovel, I made a 'spare' crowd/slew engine to use as a seperate demo engine, nice small engine to take to shows without lugging the entire shovel model. One thing I never was happy with on these engines was the speed they ran at. Like a lot of very small engines, they like to run like a bumblebee on crack, very high speed. Something I've gradually figured out on the more recent models is that running them with a needle valve to restrict the flow of compressed air while allowing the input pressure to stay high allows them to start and run with the high pressure, but the restricted flow keeps them from running too fast. I used that setup on other large-diameter pistons and got very slow speeds, but if they were about to stall the pressure builds up past the restrictor and keeps them running. Never tried it on a small diameter piston before. The slew engine has two 1/2" pistons and a 1/2" stroke. Not real tiny, but a lot less than the 3" piston on the pumping engine.
On the steering engine, I used 3mm tubing, for the piping, which has a nice scale look, but the ID is only about 0.075", a lot smaller than I usually put on the models. Till I ran it, I was concerned that the tubing was too small for the 3/4" pistons, but it runs just fine at a decent speed.
So, to borrow the 'restrictor plate' idea from the racing world, I just made a little brass plug to go on the input pipe that narrowed the opening from the 1/8" that it was to be a #57 drill, which is 0.043" diameter. Still runs the engine, but now the speed is a LOT slower, ticking over nicely, even without a flywheel, rather than sounding like an angry bee going after a honey thief like it did before. I'll call that a good lesson learned!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=roqZ7EZn_1k
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Great little small-steam technology nugget that I don't think a lot of people are aware of.
(Redline O'Shenanigans, the famous shop elf who always keeps his mind closed and the throttle wide open, probably won't pay attention, but hey....) :Lol:
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Cool engine Chris!! Like a combination of a "lizard" and a steam car!
Dave
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Splendid :praise2: I'm still enjoying in the background :wine1:
That's a neat little engine to have around :)
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Cool engine Chris!! Like a combination of a "lizard" and a steam car!
Dave
Lizard?
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steam lizard
Here in the picture is of course a large Lizard.
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steam lizard
Here in the picture is of course a large Lizard.
Ah, the dinosaurs died off because they ran out of coal! :lolb:
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Well, another step forward, then tripped and fell on my face!
I got the chain wheel at the stern finished up, including screws to hold the ends of the chains, and got that all assembled:
(https://i.postimg.cc/V6MjDLk0/IMG-2808.jpg)
Perfect time to do a test run! Hooked up the air line, started running it back and forth, so far so good, then... wait... why is the engine still running, the clutch is engaged... but the middle gear is not turning... Turns out that the solder joint from the gear hub to the rear half of the dog clutch appears to have failed, and the clutch is slipping. Elf-pucky!
Looks like I'll have to pull the rear wall of the engine off so I can remove the gear and fix that connection, maybe pin it this time. Here comes a day of fiddly work to get at the screws holding the rear wall...
The good news was that the engine was turning everything properly, and the rear chain wheel was moving as it should.
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Got the back wall of the engine off (which required unbolting the front wall too, to lift it slightly to let the large gear clear the engine bed), and got the dog clutch/sprocket assembly taken off. Here is the offending parts - the solder connection between them apparently was no good the first time around, so this time I'll run in a small pin or two...
(https://i.postimg.cc/DZKgVbDP/IMG-2809.jpg)
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Thanks CNR!
Just got it all back together - the clutch was loctited, drilled, threaded, screwed, screws trimmed off flush. So, that shouldn't be able to come loose again! Got the engine all reassembled and running again. Whew! lots of fiddly work to get all the nuts back on and tight, and get the walls trued up and back where they belong. Its running pretty good again, need to do some more fine tweaking here and there on alignments to smooth out one last sticky spot, and then I can do a video of the chains working back to the wheel at the rudder. I have not made the rudder/tiller parts yet, I wanted to run it back and forth full throw to double check the position of the bearing pin for the tiller first - was about to do that this morning when the clutch came loose. Good place to set down tools and walk away for the rest of the day though, can tell I'm hitting the limit of focus and fine finger control! Where did the elves leave that TV remote this time... Ah, found it! :Lol:
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Sorry about the broken clutch :( But sounds like you have it sorted now. :popcorn:
Take your time, Chris. We can all wait a day or two for a video! :stickpoke:
:Lol:
Kim
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Thanks Kim!
After dinner I wandered back into the shop and turned on the air line with the control valve open low, and turned it over by hand. I could hear and feel are movement around the cylinders that shouldn't be there.
Found one pipe connector leaking, the pipe was coming in at a slight angle so the nipple wasn't sealing right. Couple bends on the pipe, ran the nut back in, and that one was solved. Still felt air, so I got a cup of water and a Q-tip, wet down around all the joints and found that several of the drain valves were blowing out around the bases where they screw into the cylinders. Very short lengths of threads there, so easiest fix was to put some gasket maker goop on the threads and screwed them back in. Will let them set up overnight and see how it goes in the morning. Just fixing the pipe made it run better. Those drains will likely be changed out with the type Michael posted the plans for, the gasket goop comes off easy so its not a problem in the meantime.
:cheers:
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Cool engine Chris!! Like a combination of a "lizard" and a steam car!
Dave
Lizard?
Duplex steam pump.....sometimes called a lizard
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Cool engine Chris!! Like a combination of a "lizard" and a steam car!
Dave
Lizard?
Duplex steam pump.....sometimes called a lizard
Gotcha!
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Excellent progress this morning - more adjustments to make it run better, and gave it a good test run. For this video, I clipped a paint brush to the stern wheel to show the movement back and forth since I have not made the rudder and tiller arm yet. Getting close!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLkhgQwVpBs
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Really outstanding job on the steering engine Chris! It looks like it's working great!
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Ever so cool, Chris! :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:
You've done an outstanding job on this project (as on all your projects, of course)!
So what do you have left to do? The little pointy thing that shows what direction the rudder is headed?
Kim
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Nice!!
Dave
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Thanks guys!
Kim, still left to do are the mock up of the top of the rudder and the tiller arm back by the chain wheel, and try making new drain valves like what Michael showed. The dial indicator of rudder position on top of the engine is done.
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Oh, and etch the builders plate!
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Let me see if I understand this...
The operator stands aft of the engine, facing forward.
If he turns the wheel to the right (CW), the rudder swings to starboard which will make the ship turn to starboard.
Is that correct or have I mixed something up?
Are you going to show us what happens when you operate the large wheel?
We really need to establish an award for master modelling so we can give it to you for each of the build threads you've presented here. Battlebots has already stolen the giant nut and bolt so maybe something like a diamond studded, solid gold elffigy (yes, I invented that word)?
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Works wonderfully well. A steam servo. And beautiful to look at, too! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :cheers:
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Let me see if I understand this...
The operator stands aft of the engine, facing forward.
If he turns the wheel to the right (CW), the rudder swings to starboard which will make the ship turn to starboard.
Is that correct or have I mixed something up?
Are you going to show us what happens when you operate the large wheel?
We really need to establish an award for master modelling so we can give it to you for each of the build threads you've presented here. Battlebots has already stolen the giant nut and bolt so maybe something like a diamond studded, solid gold elffigy (yes, I invented that word)?
Great. Now the elves are outside building a snow-Elfigy! :lolb:
You have it exactly right - turning the wheel to starboard will make the rudder swing to starboard, turning the ship starboard. Likewise for turning to port. The farther the wheel is turned, the farther the rudder goes. As vtsteam said, its a steam powered servo. The first time I saw one was in Mystic Seaport at the show last summer, and that was my first though too!
The large wheel is there as a backup - if the steam engine fails or they lose steam pressure, they can disengage the clutch on the lower gear shaft, free the big wheel from its lock, and engage the dog clutch between the small and large steering wheels. That makes both move together, bypassing the control valve, and turning the chain sprocket. The larger wheel gives the helmsman more leverage to turn the rudder by 1-manpower.
On the Kearsarge steering engine plans I've found, they had no less than 5 backups with multiple clutches. They could steer from the bridge, from the side of the engine itself (both by steam engine), or manually from two places using lines of three large wheels geared in to the shaft, three in each set to let at least 6 men supply power. They also had a electro-hydraulic 'telemotor' system.
Looking around the internet, I did find a video of an engine very like this one in a Liberty Ship (there is one in Baltimore, the SS John Brown, that still goes out for cruises every year, I want to go for a ride this year to see that engine and also the big steam engine driving the prop).
I'll try and remember to show the large wheel in action in the final video!
:cheers:
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I'm absolutely jealous.
a top performance!
The fact that a rudder turns behind the machine makes the model very clear.
I'll go out to my machine again quickly. I have to turn the rudder........it's fun 😀
:cheers:
Michael
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That's just a wonderful creation, Chris. Superbly executed, great looking, and fun to watch in operation. :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
(edit) Oh, and interactive too. My grandkids would love it!
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Outstanding Chris! the operation is great now. You're ready to set sail in a paint spill with that temporary rigged brush rudder. :Lol:
Surprised the shop elves aren't catcalling you with "avast swabbing, there!" every time it operates. :mischief: :shrug: :Lol: :cheers:
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Outstanding Chris! the operation is great now. You're ready to set sail in a paint spill with that temporary rigged brush rudder. :Lol:
Surprised the shop elves aren't catcalling you with "avast swabbing, there!" every time it operates. :mischief: :shrug: :Lol: :cheers:
Well, as it happens, I had to put THEM to a bit of swabbing the decks! I had a little cup of water on the bench when I was searching for leaks, using a q-tip to apply the water, and knocked it over when moving the model. So, handed out the mops and let them clean it up! :Lol:
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Thanks guys! Been great having you all along for the journey, should have the final pictures and video in a couple days.
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Did a couple experiments with taper drills I have on hand to make the drain valves/oilers. The taper drill for the 4/0 pins that I have is only about 1.1 degrees, and that is just not enough - making the matching taper on the valve stem is so touchy to try and get the dimensions right, and the stem tends to stick in the hole too much.
Then got out the smallest of the taper drills I have in my woodworking shop, made for drilling tapered holes for wood screws. That measures out at approximately 9.1 degrees, and it does cut through the brass rod very easily. The angle works out fine, but after testing with a taper cut rod for the stem, I realized that those drills are not straight sided tapers but have a gentle curve to the taper, so the valve stem wobbles.
So, will have to make one if one is not on the shelf!
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Outstanding!!!!
Nice job Chris!!!
Dave
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:Love:
:drinking-41:
Don
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Another wonderous creation Chris. 👍
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Chris if you made a D bit you could cut the valve plugs at the same time then everything would match up really well.
As you found out the taper pin drill/or reamer created just what is should have, a locking taper. If you make your own tooling you can avoid that.
The rudder chain setup is great!
Dave
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Neve made a d bit or reamer before, any tips/instructions? Am I right that I can drill it to the small end size, then use the reamer to taper it? Turn the taper on the cutter then mill in a flute or two?
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There are several types of Dbits Do you have a picture of the hole you wan to make?
Dave
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Michael posted a drawing of it, though I would like to go a little smaller overall. Needs to make a tapered hole, around 5 degrees, small end around .070.
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Well, that was a lot easier than I thought - I was overthinking it. I think! :shrug:
I set up for about a 5 degree or so (scale on the compound is not great for exact angles, I need to measure it) and turned the end of a piece of stainless (can go back and make one from O1 and harden it if need be, but for brass I doubt thats really needed. Put it on the mill, and turned off one side of the cone on the end of the rod, and gave it a try. I drilled through a piece of brass rod a touch smaller than the small end of the new cutter, and then ran the cutter down that pilot hole. Cut beautifully!
(https://i.postimg.cc/Qx7fXyFh/IMG-2817.jpg)
Then, with the compound still in the same place, cut a matching taper on the end of a bit of brass rod, and perfect fit.
(https://i.postimg.cc/VkcD5WtM/IMG-2818.jpg)
The size seems good, leaves just enough diameter to put a 1-72 or 0-80 nut on the small end. I think I'll reduce the angle just a little, I think its too fat on this first one.
I've never tried making a cutter like this before, and am surprised how simple it is. Yet another tool for the box! :cheers: For cutting steel it would need to be a hardened/tempered cutter, right? For these small brass holes even this unhardened one should be fine to do a handful of parts. Once I settle on the angle, I'll turn up a bunch of the valve stems and find a place to hide them from any shop gnomes looking for shiny bits to line a nest.
One other thing to show, earlier I made up the rudder/tiller pieces and got them painted. The shop elves are taking credit, and are cracking open some beer to celebrate:
(https://i.postimg.cc/qBSmHTM1/IMG-2815.jpg)
This 'rudder' is just to show how the engine would move it, obviously there is a whole lot of ship missing! The slot in the tiller rides on the pin on the edge of the wheel, a lot like a Scotch Yoke. As the wheel turns, the pin pushes the tiller over, pushing the rudder itself the other direction. After I make the drain valves I'll make up a final video for this project. Again, thanks for all the help and for following along with encouragement!
Chris :cheers:
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Looks like Bucket Bob's maybe gonna try an Elfensteiner christening of the new ship (parts). :Lol: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Looks like Bucket Bob's maybe gonna try an Elfensteiner christening of the new ship (parts). :Lol: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
And Elfric is plotting how to make a pinball flipper out of it!
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Hello Chris,
4 degrees is the optimal angle.
Michael
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Another Master Build has been completed :praise2:
Thank you very much for taking us with you on this Journey Chris :cheers:
Amazingly realistic Model :praise2:
Per
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I made the silver steel D-bit on the lathe on the 4 degree setting and then made a lot of future cones on the same setting. On the thin side with a thread for the nut.
I've also made a few cones with a handle on the thick end and later annealed and bent them. Then you have a cone with a handle.
The D-bit is milled exactly halfway flat on the router and slightly hardened. For brass it works very well. The hole for passage in the cone is always drilled with the valve body. A tip, after drilling, the cone is firmly connected to the housing. Due to some compression in the brass. Never pull the cone out of the housing by turning it back and forth. You immediately have a small groove that can hardly be eliminated even by grinding. Knock the cone out of the housing from behind with a light hammer. Lightly deburr the hole in the cone with the diamond file. I then sanded in with 400 grit and then with 800 grit. The valves were then tight. I have always used the cones with hot steam oil. Also for machines with compressed air operation.
Michael
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I made the silver steel D-bit on the lathe on the 4 degree setting and then made a lot of future cones on the same setting. On the thin side with a thread for the nut.
I've also made a few cones with a handle on the thick end and later annealed and bent them. Then you have a cone with a handle.
The D-bit is milled exactly halfway flat on the router and slightly hardened. For brass it works very well. The hole for passage in the cone is always drilled with the valve body. A tip, after drilling, the cone is firmly connected to the housing. Due to some compression in the brass. Never pull the cone out of the housing by turning it back and forth. You immediately have a small groove that can hardly be eliminated even by grinding. Knock the cone out of the housing from behind with a light hammer. Lightly deburr the hole in the cone with the diamond file. I then sanded in with 400 grit and then with 800 grit. The valves were then tight. I have always used the cones with hot steam oil. Also for machines with compressed air operation.
Michael
Great tips - thanks!
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I measured the first reamer I made, and the total angle was aroun 8 degrees. So, this morning I made another one at 5 degrees, and that works much better, just fine enough to hold but not so narrow that its hard to get lengths right. After testing the cutter, I made up a matching valve stem cone. I made the end diameter of the cutter .065", which is smaller than a 1-72 thread. The end diameter of the valve stem cone was cut down to the same, then I threaded on a 1-72 die.
(https://i.postimg.cc/QxqfznVt/IMG-2820.jpg)
Took a couple tests to get the drill depth correct, once I did I got this fit:
(https://i.postimg.cc/tCbr2Hqw/IMG-2819.jpg)
The nut will keep the stem from falling out. I'll turn the stems above the cones down and bend it like Michael suggested. So, next step is to make a pile of the valve stems for this and future engines while the compound is still set for this exact angle, then I'll make up the four valve bodies that I need for this engine.
Thanks guys!! :cheers: :cheers:
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Hi Chris
Yup that is exactly what I was talking about. Looks like you have a path forward.
If you look starting at post #250 on my Pacific build, I machine a set of tapered cocks for the engine. On the tapered plug there is a flat that engages with a matching washer that the nut tightens against.
https://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,1326.250.html
Dave
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Another note about bending the handles. It can happen that the brass breaks. Bend it in several steps and reheat it with the burner. It depends on the type of brass you're using. Use the sleeve where the cone is screwed in at the thick end for any machining. This protects the surface.
Michael
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Hi Chris
Yup that is exactly what I was talking about. Looks like you have a path forward.
If you look starting at post #250 on my Pacific build, I machine a set of tapered cocks for the engine. On the tapered plug there is a flat that engages with a matching washer that the nut tightens against.
https://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,1326.250.html (https://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,1326.250.html)
Dave
Some ingenious use of the printed holders! Some great ideas there, thanks!
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Another note about bending the handles. It can happen that the brass breaks. Bend it in several steps and reheat it with the burner. It depends on the type of brass you're using. Use the sleeve where the cone is screwed in at the thick end for any machining. This protects the surface.
Michael
:ThumbsUp:
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Between sessions getting the tapered valve stems figured out, today I had the nameplate etching going on in the background. Used a salt-water and electricity method, 5 volts DC positive line to the plate, negative hooked to another chunk of brass, in a container of distilled water lsaturated with non-iodized salt. Takes a couple hours but gives great results. The pattern was made up in Word to get the fonts close to the original, added the outline box, and printed it mirrored on a sheet of Press-N-Peel circuit board transfer film (needs a tonor based printer, not inkjet). Iron that on a sheet of thin brass that has been scouring-pad cleaned before putting in the solution. Vinyl tape on the back to keep that from being etched. Trim to size after etching (left oversize so a place to hook on the wire without etching it away). Soaked in vinegar to clean it up for using some brass black solution on it, then light filing to brighten the raised letters.
Here is the result - it is about 1.5" across:
(https://i.postimg.cc/C1XC25ZC/IMG-2821.jpg)
Hope I spelled it all right! I copied the layout/words from the pictures of the one Michael has, a couple letters didn’t transfer well and got partly eaten away, I’ll blame that on an old casting that was bumped by the crew cleaning the decks!. :cheers: I'll mount it on the front of the engine.
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Excellent! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :cheers:
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Wow! I didn't know your Elves spoke German! :Lol:
Kim
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Wow! I didn't know your Elves spoke German! :Lol:
Kim
I know they can swear in German... I know enough to tell.
Reminds me of a story - back when she was just out of school, my mother had a lab-tech job at the hospital. One time she overheard a nurse dealing with a patient that was being demanding. When walking away, the nurse muttered something nasty in German. Didn't realize the head nurse nearby spoke it... BIG to-do over that one! :o
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Excellent! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :cheers:
Thanks Steve!
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:ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
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Chris, everything spelled correctly. The sign looks good.
If someone googles the suburb of Dresden, Uebigau, it is written with Ü (Übigau) today. But previously with Ue.
I think they already knew back then that Chris, when he builds the model in over 120 years, has no Ü on the keyboard.
And you can't help it if the workshop elves hit the sign with a hammer and make a dent on the "r".
I like the shield. do you still make the background black?
Michael
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Hi Michael, I tried using the brass black on the background, but I think the etch process changed the surface enough that it didn't take well, and just came out the brownish color. I will try some thinned paint on it.
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Hi "K" Ja dass ist sehr gut und ich bin auch einen Deutschs Sprecherin, wunderbar ,Hoffentlich dass built ist etwas fertiges
??!!
Der Villy
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Hello Willy,
nice! Have you ever been to Germany?
Hallo Willy,
Sehr gut! Warst du mal in Deutschland?
Michael
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Rather than trying some paint on the nameplate, which I was afraid would blur out the letters, I tried some India ink, gives a nice effect.
(https://i.postimg.cc/DzbVSjV7/IMG-2825.jpg)
Also been working on a big batch of drain valve handles. Michael - you were right, needed to heat the shank with a torch to get it to bend well. I now have them all done (only need four for this model, but it was just as easy to make enough for some fututre models too), will start on the four valve bodies next. Only going to make the four, hard to say what thread sizes would be needed for future. Each of the narrow ends on the cones has been threaded for a 1-72 nut.
(https://i.postimg.cc/K8WSvXH9/IMG-2823.jpg)
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The factory sign looks good.
I looked up what a 1-72 thread is in millimeters. About 1.85mm. That's a lot smaller than my valves.
Maybe I'll build a new oiler for my Nicholas steam engine this weekend. There is also an oiler on the cylinder cover.
Michael
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or here
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The factory sign looks good.
I looked up what a 1-72 thread is in millimeters. About 1.85mm. That's a lot smaller than my valves.
Maybe I'll build a new oiler for my Nicholas steam engine this weekend. There is also an oiler on the cylinder cover.
Michael
Your drawing showed 2mm on the cones, not that much different. My valve bodies need a 5-40 thread on the base, .125"
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I finished up the drain valves this afternoon. Threaded the ends, drilled through, turned the bodies to shape before using the taper reamer and a drill to fit the valve stems. The one thing that I did different from normal was when drilling through the valve stems. They need to be in the bodies, and use the existing through hole as a guide, but I did not want to have the bodies spinning and have the stem come loose. So, I held the part in the tailstock chuck and the drill in the headstock chuck.
(https://i.postimg.cc/JnxvH9hH/IMG-2826.jpg)
After the first one, I realized something that I should have measured for first - the size of the through hole needs to be small enough not to get near the edges of the cone! I got lucky, one drill size larger and they would not have sealed well. Have to remember to use a smaller drill next time I make up the bodies for another model.
So, here is how they came out - here is one of the lower ones
(https://i.postimg.cc/zvfMC0Lt/IMG-2829.jpg)
and an upper one, with the oil cup. I did not make them with the caps, just the open cup, wanting to keep them small.
(https://i.postimg.cc/WzfyXgg2/IMG-2828.jpg)
Much happier with how these look than the first ones I made!
So, down to the last little things on the model - need to paint the studs/nuts on the engine bed that hold it to the deck plate, and get the builder plate attached. The elves decided to see how it looked - we had to trim off the studs behind it to get it to sit in straight.
(https://i.postimg.cc/BZhRS9yd/IMG-2827.jpg)
Its odd to have it all about done all of a sudden! There were always another dozen parts to make, ran out of those. So, tomorrow I'll give the elves some paintbrushes and... um, err, no! I'll do the final painting! The name plate will get some adhesive on the back to hold it in place, then I can set up for some final pictures and videos.
:whoohoo: :wine1:
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Good call on doing the final painting yourself! :Lol: :cheers:
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Good call on doing the final painting yourself! :Lol: :cheers:
There was the time they snuck in while I was sleeping and painted me to look like the back wall of the bathroom. Next morning, looked in the mirror, and thought I was invisible!
:lolb:
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:Lol: :cheers:
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The oilers and sign look name plate look great, Chris! :popcorn: :popcorn:
Kim
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I used a D to make my valve on my Eastern and Anderson Grasshopper engine. Had to make the drain cock twice. Handle was over size. Take a look here.. https://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,4629.90.html
By the way always nice results Chris….
Regards Don
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I used a D to make my valve on my Eastern and Anderson Grasshopper engine. Had to make the drain cock twice. Handle was over size. Take a look here.. https://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,4629.90.html (https://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,4629.90.html)
By the way always nice results Chris….
Regards Don
Thanks Don! That grasshopper engine is gorgeous!
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All done! The paint on the engine bed bolts is done, the name plate is attached, time for final photos and videos!
(https://i.postimg.cc/YqgCmJ00/IMG-2832.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/XYkNsdw0/IMG-2842.jpg)
Here is a video showing the engine in operation, moving the 'rudder' behind it back and forth with the steering wheel. The engine cycles on and off and self-reverses as needed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKp-J9aGXiA
When the engine or boiler is down and the steering engine cannot be used, it has an option to steer manually with no power assist. This clip shows how that works. Dog clutch on the lower shaft is disengaged and the one on the steering wheels is engaged, and the large wheel has a screw that clamps onto the outer upper shaft, locking all of the shafts and screws together. That way the control valve is bypassed, and the large gear on the lower shaft and its attached chain sprocket are moved. The larger steering wheel gives more leverage for the helmsman (or possibly two helmsmen) to move the rudder and steer the ship.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBDB4yCTMns
Also posting a longer wrap-up over in the Showcase section on the forum. Thanks very much to all who followed along and helped out! Biggest thanks to Michael for all his help, information, pictures, and drawings!
Chris :cheers:
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8)
Cool Engine Chris well done.
Jo
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Wow! Just beautiful and super unique! Love the steering engine, you did a magnificent job on the design (reverse engineering?) and the execution! :praise2:
Kim
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Thanks guys!
Not much reverse engineering, with the pictures of the individual parts Michael sent me from during the restoration, plus a couple patents I found.
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Just got an email from Live Steam magazine, he wants a write-up on it! Woohoo!
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As well he should! :ThumbsUp:
Kim
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It's been a great project, Chris, and I'm glad to see it will be more widely publicized! :NotWorthy: :NotWorthy: :NotWorthy: :cheers:
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Hello Chris,
I congratulate you on the successful project.
You have built an excellent model. you just did it
Actually, I wanted to build the steering machine, but the project seemed to me to be a difficult task.
Now I have a construction plan 😀 and I know that it can work. Thank you for showing the individual steps.
And now a report for a magazine.
I hope I can get a copy one day.
Best regards Michael
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Really unique and really great execution. :cartwheel:
I do have one question, however. It seems there is a huge dead-band when the small wheel is turned. I think I saw this on Michael's video of the prototype as well.
How on earth could the helmsman deal with such loose steering control?
Gene
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Hello Chris,
I congratulate you on the successful project.
You have built an excellent model. you just did it
Actually, I wanted to build the steering machine, but the project seemed to me to be a difficult task.
Now I have a construction plan 😀 and I know that it can work. Thank you for showing the individual steps.
And now a report for a magazine.
I hope I can get a copy one day.
Best regards Michael
I posted the plans over in the model build (think it had some updates partway along), so anyone here is welcome to build it.
Michael, they send me four copies of each issue I am in, so when it comes out I'll mail you a copy! :cheers:
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Really unique and really great execution. :cartwheel:
I do have one question, however. It seems there is a huge dead-band when the small wheel is turned. I think I saw this on Michael's video of the prototype as well.
How on earth could the helmsman deal with such loose steering control?
Gene
Hi Gene,
The dead-band is due to the small size of the model and the overlap of the control valve I used, on the real engine the control is much much tighter. I could get rid of more of that dead section by trimming back the length of the control valve more, but it is a bit of a pain to get it in and out, and if I go too far I'd have to make a whole new valve slider. Take a look back at the videos Michael posted early in the build showing the real engine, its control is a lot tighter. The movement on the valve across that band on the model is only about 10 thou...
:cheers:
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Amazing build and kind of Teamwork between Michael and Chris (+ a few more) :praise2: :cheers: :praise2:
And more reconition from Live Steam Magazine :NotWorthy:
Per
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Take a look back at the videos Michael posted early in the build showing the real engine, its control is a lot tighter.
Sorry. I did not state that very well. :( :(
I went back and looked at a couple of videos of full size steering engines. The one Michael posted of Kaiser Wilhelm seems to show some dead band and/or delay but not too bad.
The one I remembered was the video of a steering engine at Markham Grange. It showed lost motion of at least a whole turn of the control wheel. That would be a tough drive. :hammerbash:
Gene
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Take a look back at the videos Michael posted early in the build showing the real engine, its control is a lot tighter.
Sorry. I did not state that very well. :( :(
I went back and looked at a couple of videos of full size steering engines. The one Michael posted of Kaiser Wilhelm seems to show some dead band and/or delay but not too bad.
The one I remembered was the video of a steering engine at Markham Grange. It showed lost motion of at least a whole turn of the control wheel. That would be a tough drive. :hammerbash:
Gene
No problem Gene! It's possible that the Markham engine has worn parts making it worse. A full turn would be disconcerting to steer! I've never helmed anything big enough to need a steering engine, biggest was the Sabino, and I remember that it did respond to fairly small inputs while at speed.
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That's just too cool! :NotWorthy:
Eric
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Splendid :praise2: :praise2: :wine1:
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Amazing build. Fine detail work as always.
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Wow , love it , great looking engine and set up ...its worth an Oscar or two !!
Willy
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Fascinating :ThumbsUp:
Andy
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Beautiful work on an intriguing and unusual model as usual Chris. It has been fascinating to follow the whole way through.
Wonderful to see it complete and working as the original.
Congratulations on another great project.
MJM460
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Fabulous work as always.
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Thanks very much everyone! This style engine has really hid a chord with everyone, was just at the pool with the RC submarines, the gange there wants a steam powered radio system and these for servos. Its so much fun to find a new-to-me kind of machine!
:cheers: :cheers:
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Hey Chris,
Just incase you get bored. :Lol:
https://selling.discoverlivesteam.com/item/46232474/donkin-1898-steering-steam-engine
Dave
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Hey Chris,
Just incase you get bored. :Lol:
https://selling.discoverlivesteam.com/item/46232474/donkin-1898-steering-steam-engine (https://selling.discoverlivesteam.com/item/46232474/donkin-1898-steering-steam-engine)
Dave
Wow - thats a heck of a find Dave! Same basic pricipal of operation as this engine, but with the shafts oriented differently. I hjad not seen the Donkin brand of them before. That seller also has a triple expansion engine for sale too...
https://selling.discoverlivesteam.com/item/56173741/plenty-triple-expansion-steam-engine (https://selling.discoverlivesteam.com/item/56173741/plenty-triple-expansion-steam-engine)
Found this video of that engine under steam, pretty good.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsEs4c-KUE4
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Thanks very much everyone! This style engine has really hid a chord with everyone, was just at the pool with the RC submarines, the gange there wants a steam powered radio system and these for servos. Its so much fun to find a new-to-me kind of machine!
:cheers: :cheers:
Are they planning on building "K" Class Subs?
Gerald.
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Thanks very much everyone! This style engine has really hid a chord with everyone, was just at the pool with the RC submarines, the gange there wants a steam powered radio system and these for servos. Its so much fun to find a new-to-me kind of machine!
:cheers: :cheers:
Are they planning on building "K" Class Subs?
Gerald.
I wonder if any of the early Holland ones had steering engines?
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Hello Chris,
could you send me a photo of your model steering machine if it doesn't bother you too much. I would then like to print it out and hang it up next to the original machine in my little museum.
Greetings Michael
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Hello Chris,
could you send me a photo of your model steering machine if it doesn't bother you too much. I would then like to print it out and hang it up next to the original machine in my little museum.
Greetings Michael
Hi Michael,
Just emailed you a couple of pictures, let me know if they are okay for the museum!
Chris
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Chris, the pictures are great.
I'll print them out. And then frame.
Michael
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Chris, the pictures are great.
I'll print them out. And then frame.
Michael
Great! Send me a picture of it by the real one!
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Thank you Chris for the beautiful pictures. I am particularly pleased with the picture with the chains and rudder system. With this photo I can explain the function of the whole system well.
If you ever make another trip to Europe, you have to come and see me.
(the one picture is with the name of the builder and where he comes from)
Michael 🍻
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Excellent group in the shop there! I hope I can make it over to Germany one of these days, its been on my list for quite a while both to see the country plus see where a large part of my mother's side of the family came from. I've made it over to London area, but didn't make it over the channel yet.
:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Hello Chris,
The mail ship must have had good wind for sailing.
I got a letter from you.
A nice article about the steering machine and the magazine is very interesting.
Thank you very much for the magazine.
Michael :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
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Hello Chris,
The mail ship must have had good wind for sailing.
I got a letter from you.
A nice article about the steering machine and the magazine is very interesting.
Thank you very much for the magazine.
Michael :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
Glad it got there okay, That model would not have been possible without all your help! :cheers: :cheers:
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Yes, I was very happy about this magazine. And I can read it well.
So I hold my smartphone over it and Google does the rest 😁.
Michael