Author Topic: Middletons Inverted V twin  (Read 2907 times)

Offline flopearedmule

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Middletons Inverted V twin
« on: January 18, 2020, 01:15:41 PM »
Hello Everyone!
I hope everyone had a great Christmas and New Year celebration!
First I need to show you guys my dads new engine from the Home Shop Machinist magazine.  He finally got it running a couple weeks ago.  It is double size from the original because it was so tiny.    The Side Lever Engine.  It is a very good runner.

He wants to build another engine called the Middleton Inverted V twin.  I have made a few parts for him the last couple weeks, will try to show the updates as we go.
thanks everyone, and here's to a great year for everyone!!   :cheers:
« Last Edit: October 28, 2020, 11:50:11 AM by flopearedmule »

Online propforward

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Re: Middletons Inverted V twin
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2020, 01:19:04 PM »
That's a super runner - what a treat! Loved watching the video.
Stuart

Online Kim

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Re: Middletons Inverted V twin
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2020, 05:48:30 PM »
That's interesting.  I've not seen one with the beams on the bottom.  Very nice runner too!
Kim

Offline crueby

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Re: Middletons Inverted V twin
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2020, 07:12:06 PM »
Great runner, mesmerizing action.   :ThumbsUp:

I like the parts on the Vee engine, interesting how you made the liner for the cylinder and the inset for the valve face from brass (or bronze?) . How are they held in and sealed up to each other? Excellent fit!

Offline flopearedmule

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Re: Middletons Inverted V twin
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2020, 12:38:36 AM »
Thanks Stuart and Kim!

Chris, I just ordered seamless brass from McMaster Carr and its held in with green loctite.  same with the steam ports,(held in with Loctite)   although I might add 4 tiny flat heads later.

I got the eccentrics done today.  I messed up and drilled my hold down holes right on the parting lines.  It will have to work, I'm not making them over. :Doh: :Doh:

« Last Edit: February 03, 2020, 03:43:56 PM by flopearedmule »

Offline flopearedmule

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Re: Middletons Inverted V twin
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2020, 12:35:28 PM »
JasonB or anyone else that can help me?
These prints for the Middleton engine have two numbers for the throw on the crankshaft.  Can you tell me what number it is supposed to be?  I think it is 5/8"

Offline cnr6400

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Re: Middletons Inverted V twin
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2020, 01:33:46 PM »
Looking at the end view at the bottom of your pic, it looks like there should be metal outside the shaft and the crank pin in the 1 1/8" disk. If you add half the shaft and half the crankpin dia's to the 27/32 stroke dimension, you get 1.15". This is bigger than the 1 1/8" dia disk, no metal would be left between disk edge and shaft/crank pins! I suspect the 27/32 dim is incorrect.

Adding half the shaft dia and half the crank pin dia to 5/8" stroke it gives .94" which would leave metal between disk edge and pins, which is how the end view looks.

As a double check, you could subtract the piston width from the cylinder length to see what the max stroke could be. (the actual dimension for this will likely be longer than the stroke to allow some steam entry clearance at each end of the cylinder)

Hope this helps.  :cheers:

PS in your 20 jan post you mentioned "tubeless brass". What is that? I've heard of tubeless tires and seamless brass but not tubeless brass..... :shrug:
« Last Edit: February 03, 2020, 01:36:53 PM by cnr6400 »

Offline flopearedmule

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Re: Middletons Inverted V twin
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2020, 03:43:25 PM »
Thanks cnr6400!!
I have drawn this out in CAD with the length of the cylinder and both numbers (5/8 and 27/32) for the stroke of crankshaft, it sure looked like 5/8 would be the number.  I just wanted to have someone double check for me.....make sure I wasn't going crazy and the other number (27/32") was maybe meant for something else. 

PS in your 20 jan post you mentioned "tubeless brass". What is that? I've heard of tubeless tires and seamless brass but not tubeless brass..... :shrug:

I meant seamless.  :Lol: Thanks for catching that!  I'll see if I can do an edit to fix that.

Offline cnr6400

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Re: Middletons Inverted V twin
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2020, 04:17:48 PM »
No worries re tubeless vs seamless. It's all good.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

Is the crank going to be drilled disks / loose shaft and pins / loctite or pinned joints, or cut from solid?   :cheers:     :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Offline flopearedmule

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Re: Middletons Inverted V twin
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2020, 04:51:54 PM »
No worries re tubeless vs seamless. It's all good.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

Is the crank going to be drilled disks / loose shaft and pins / loctite or pinned joints, or cut from solid?   :cheers:     :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Not sure.  I'm helping my Dad build this and he said he can build the crankshaft.  I'll let you know.....stay tuned.

Offline flopearedmule

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Re: Middletons Inverted V twin
« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2020, 01:34:25 AM »
Hi everyone
Its been awhile, got a warning that I might want to start a new topic instead of posting on this one  LOL

Its been a very busy Summer and Fall.  No time was spent on this engine.  I kind of go all over the place with what I'm working on. 
My daughter wanted to start shooting competitive archery this summer, so we had to take about 3 months off to do that. 

I finally got excited and some time to work on this engine.  Made the sliders, and the Crosshead yesterday and today.  I found an old piece of brass lead screw someone gave me to build the two Crossheads.  Don't think this was brass, it did NOT machine very easy.   It was free, so I guess I can't complain.

Hopefully I can keep on this for the next couple months. 

 

Offline crueby

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Re: Middletons Inverted V twin
« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2020, 01:40:52 AM »
Great to see you back on the engine.  :popcorn:   Archery is a very valid excuse for the delay, a fun sport!

Offline flopearedmule

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Re: Middletons Inverted V twin
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2020, 12:41:31 AM »
Going slow, but little more done last week.  Dad made the crankshaft and connecting rods. I have put it together to see how it's working.
I am changing the linkage for the valve.  What do you think?
Here is the picture of Middleton's linkage........then what mine will look like.  Still much work to do.

Question??  I have seen some engines that have the little heads on the bolts or the nuts.  Where do I find them?  I can't believe everyone is making them.  Maybe some of you are, but I don't want to make them   ;D ;D  I want a short cut.
The socket head cap screws, maybe don't quite look right.

« Last Edit: November 10, 2020, 12:47:02 AM by flopearedmule »

Offline cnr6400

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Re: Middletons Inverted V twin
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2020, 04:10:33 AM »
One source is Micro Fasteners Inc. , link to hex head screws section of their site is below. Had good luck ordering all manner of stuff from them over the years.

https://www.microfasteners.com/home.php?cat=574

Some other firms seem to be out of stock frequently, and cost more. YMMV.  :cheers:

One further thought - cutting studs from threaded rod and using scale nuts (smaller hex a/f size than normal machine screw nuts for a given thread) is usually far lower cost than buying hex head screws. Also more typical of what was used for fastenings on the real machines from 1865-1940 ish time period.

Offline flopearedmule

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Re: Middletons Inverted V twin
« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2020, 04:18:17 AM »

One further thought - cutting studs from threaded rod and using scale nuts (smaller hex a/f size than normal machine screw nuts for a given thread) is usually far lower cost than buying hex head screws. Also more typical of what was used for fastenings on the real machines from 1865-1940 ish time period.

I'm interested.  Where do I find these?  thanks

Offline Jasonb

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Re: Middletons Inverted V twin
« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2020, 07:37:09 AM »
Small nuts (and hex screws/bolts) assuming you are using American threads

https://godshallscustommachining.com/products/model-hex-nuts

I did not see your question about the crank throw before. It should be 5/8". This is the original hand drawn Middleton for that crank, there is also an alternative one which also shows 5/8.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2020, 07:44:42 AM by Jasonb »

Offline crueby

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Re: Middletons Inverted V twin
« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2020, 12:23:26 PM »

One further thought - cutting studs from threaded rod and using scale nuts (smaller hex a/f size than normal machine screw nuts for a given thread) is usually far lower cost than buying hex head screws. Also more typical of what was used for fastenings on the real machines from 1865-1940 ish time period.

I'm interested.  Where do I find these?  thanks
Available in some sizes from a number of suppliers, search for Small Pattern Nuts.

Offline cnr6400

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Re: Middletons Inverted V twin
« Reply #17 on: November 10, 2020, 04:07:42 PM »
As Chris mentioned, look for "small pattern" nuts. In the Micro Fasteners site, the link below (for stainless nuts) gives a choice between small pattern and regular machine screw nuts.

https://www.microfasteners.com/home.php?cat=629

Good luck on the shopping. Don't be shy about buying 100 nuts rather than trying to find just a few - you will be surprised how much hardware is used on models of old machinery. Chris Rueby will attest to that! Personally I think 6 or 8 studs and nuts on say a steam engine's steam chest cover looks MUCH better than just 4 studs and nuts, or philips head machine screws. (even though 4 fasteners will probably be strong enough and function OK. )

Offline flopearedmule

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Re: Middletons Inverted V twin
« Reply #18 on: November 11, 2020, 02:18:01 AM »
As Chris mentioned, look for "small pattern" nuts. In the Micro Fasteners site, the link below (for stainless nuts) gives a choice between small pattern and regular machine screw nuts.

https://www.microfasteners.com/home.php?cat=629

Good luck on the shopping. Don't be shy about buying 100 nuts rather than trying to find just a few - you will be surprised how much hardware is used on models of old machinery. Chris Rueby will attest to that! Personally I think 6 or 8 studs and nuts on say a steam engine's steam chest cover looks MUCH better than just 4 studs and nuts, or philips head machine screws. (even though 4 fasteners will probably be strong enough and function OK. )

that's what I need!  Thanks
I ordered one package of each.  Comes in packs of 100
They are actually a great price.

Offline flopearedmule

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Re: Middletons Inverted V twin
« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2020, 11:37:41 PM »
Not much left.  I need to make piston and piston rod.
Dad says he is making a flywheel.  I'll have to true it up when I get it, he don't think that is important  :Argue: :Argue:

I'm starting to like the cap screws.  They are growing on me, reminds me of a stamping die I used to work on.   Its not like this engine is a scale replica of the original design.  I'll see what the small nuts look like when I get them, then I can decide.

Any of you guys that made the  "Coventry by Roy Ozouf"  can you recognize my valve link?  I think this looks a lot better than what was on the prints.

Thanks for looking!
Dennis



Offline flopearedmule

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Re: Middletons Inverted V twin
« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2020, 12:26:23 AM »
Hi all!
Archery was in the way again.  Much practicing with my daughter and myself.  Its finally over for a bit and I got back to business.
put it together yesterday to see if it would run.  It wouldn't run very good. 
It runs better at really low air pressure, and soon as I increase the pressure, it runs like crap. 
Can someone tell me what is wrong?  :happyreader: :happyreader:



Offline crueby

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Re: Middletons Inverted V twin
« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2020, 12:33:06 AM »
sounds like either a sticky spot in the revolution (if you turn it by hand can you feel the resistance change somewhere? ) or the timing of the valves is just a bit off, giving it a bit of a gallop as the piston on the near side in the video hits bottom. I like to connect just one cylinder at a time to air pressure and test, it can isolate where the issue is. Possible that one direction on one of the pistons is not getting pressure into it, or the exhaust is not opening soon enough.

Offline flopearedmule

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Re: Middletons Inverted V twin
« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2020, 12:36:12 AM »
I quit working on it last night and went to bed.   It finally hit me what could be making it run somewhat good at low pressure and bad at high pressure. :hammerbash: :hammerbash:
If you guys don't mind, I'm thinking a few of you guys will tell me right away what it is.   :popcorn: :popcorn:
Here is a video of it running much better. 
I still need to add the large brass ring on the flywheel, (laying on the left side of the engine) but it seems to run really good. 
Check out my new valve linkage!
I bought the brass fittings from PM research with 1/4" brass pipe from McMaster Carr.  I really like these fittings.
Found some low temp silver solder at Brownells, and wow, it sure does work good.  It says the melting point is around 550 degrees F
Now for the crappy part of painting and making it look nice.


Offline flopearedmule

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Re: Middletons Inverted V twin
« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2020, 12:58:22 AM »
sounds like either a sticky spot in the revolution (if you turn it by hand can you feel the resistance change somewhere? ) or the timing of the valves is just a bit off, giving it a bit of a gallop as the piston on the near side in the video hits bottom. I like to connect just one cylinder at a time to air pressure and test, it can isolate where the issue is. Possible that one direction on one of the pistons is not getting pressure into it, or the exhaust is not opening soon enough.

That was fast Chris   ;D ;D  I was posting my next one before any of you would read the first one.  hahah
It DOES have something to do with the exhaust.  Everything was timed perfect, and nothing was sticking though.

How about a bottle of whiskey for the first person to guess it!   :cheers:

Offline crueby

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Re: Middletons Inverted V twin
« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2020, 01:00:11 AM »
Sounds like your shop elves stuffed a potoato in the exhaust pipe then!  :o I had an engine where I had it all assembled, would not run right, then on taking it apart found that one gasket had no hole in the center!

Offline flopearedmule

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Re: Middletons Inverted V twin
« Reply #25 on: December 15, 2020, 01:26:01 AM »
Maybe not appropriate on an engine build forum, but its my thread so I can brag a little.  :whoohoo:
Here are some pictures of this last weekend at NFAA Indoor Nationals.  They cancelled the shoot in March because of COVID.  The NFAA decided to do a virtual tournament and let everyone shoot.  As of right now my daugther and  I are in first place!!
She broke the national record in her class (Young Adult Bowhunter) by one X....600 91X, and this old man....first year shooting as an old man (Senior Freestyle) class, tied the national record!   600 118X
There will be other locations around the states to host the tournament the next two weekends, but we are sitting pretty good. 

The last two pictures is my daughter back in September at the National NFAA outdoor field tournament. She got first place.
 
« Last Edit: December 15, 2020, 03:48:09 AM by flopearedmule »

Offline crueby

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Re: Middletons Inverted V twin
« Reply #26 on: December 15, 2020, 01:35:01 AM »
Thats some awesome shooting! I've never gotten that serious about archery, but have done enough to know how good those scores are.  :ThumbsUp:

Offline flopearedmule

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Re: Middletons Inverted V twin
« Reply #27 on: December 16, 2020, 12:01:10 AM »
Sounds like your shop elves stuffed a potoato in the exhaust pipe then!  :o I had an engine where I had it all assembled, would not run right, then on taking it apart found that one gasket had no hole in the center!

I guess that's close enough. lol

my end caps on the cylinders were sticking in to far and covering up the ports.  I needed to go deeper with the cylinder ports. 
It was like a flow control on an air cylinder that was closed too far and the air couldn't get out.

Online gary.a.ayres

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Re: Middletons Inverted V twin
« Reply #28 on: December 16, 2020, 02:08:53 PM »
Congratulations! All my life I fondly imagined that I'd be quite good at archery. Eventually I joined a club only to discover I was rubbish at it.

So I left the club and bought my first lathe...   :)

The Middleton V-Twin looks great. I have a copy of Model Engineer with a picture of a finished example of it on the cover. Very handsome...

Notifications on for your thread!

Offline flopearedmule

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Re: Middletons Inverted V twin
« Reply #29 on: December 20, 2020, 02:16:00 PM »
Thanks Gary
It has been years of practice.  This score was the best I have ever done in a tournament.  Pretty happy it was the Indoor Nationals where my performance peeked.

Engine runs awesome!  Just have to finish the flywheel and paint it now.  It was a pretty straight forward build.
There were some errors on the prints from the article, but thanks to ACad, I got them all fixed.
take care

Online gary.a.ayres

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Re: Middletons Inverted V twin
« Reply #30 on: December 20, 2020, 02:31:47 PM »
Yes indeed. Good timing!

if I ever go back to it I might see how I get on with the traditional longbow instead of the recurve with the clicker that I still have.

The engine looks great in your video above. Look forward to seeing it in its finished form.

Cheers,

gary

Offline flopearedmule

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Re: Middletons Inverted V twin
« Reply #31 on: January 09, 2021, 04:23:20 PM »
Hi everyone! 
I have spent the last two weeks recovering from Covid.  It was miserable! :ThumbsDown: :ThumbsDown:  I am starting to feel much better, so I just want to show my completed engine (I finished it awhile ago, but haven't felt good enough to post it till today).

I need to ask.....is there a different video hosting site I can use besides YouTube?  I would like to post a video, but I don't want to use YouTube anymore??  Thank You!

Offline Dave Otto

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Re: Middletons Inverted V twin
« Reply #32 on: January 09, 2021, 04:38:25 PM »
The engine is beautiful!
Glad to hear that you are recovering ok.

Dave

Online gary.a.ayres

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Re: Middletons Inverted V twin
« Reply #33 on: January 09, 2021, 05:55:57 PM »
Fabulous engine. Great work. I love that three-spoked flywheel!

All the best for your continued recovery.

gary

Offline Admiral_dk

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Re: Middletons Inverted V twin
« Reply #34 on: January 09, 2021, 08:40:53 PM »
Quote
Fabulous engine. Great work. I love that three-spoked flywheel!

All the best for your continued recovery.
'

Amen to that and nice to hear one that came through - hopefully without any follow ups so to speak.

Best wishes

Per

Offline flopearedmule

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Re: Middletons Inverted V twin
« Reply #35 on: January 09, 2021, 11:43:51 PM »
Found a site called Rumble.
I'm going to see if this works.

I don't know how to make it play on this message, but you can click on the link.  Let me know if it don't work.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsDown:

Thanks for the flywheel compliment ;D  My dad found it off a small air compressor and made me use it.  The bronze ring, along with a coat of paint, sure made it look nice.

https://rumble.com/vclkrf-middleton-inverted-vee.html?mref=c1oih&mc=y8063




« Last Edit: January 09, 2021, 11:56:49 PM by flopearedmule »

Offline crueby

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Re: Middletons Inverted V twin
« Reply #36 on: January 10, 2021, 12:03:43 AM »
That is running great! Very smooth, excellent work on the paint too.   :ThumbsUp:

Glad you are feeling better, hope no bad long term effects from it.

Online Kim

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Re: Middletons Inverted V twin
« Reply #37 on: January 10, 2021, 06:53:57 AM »
Wow!  Runs very nicely!
Kim

Offline Zephyrin

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Re: Middletons Inverted V twin
« Reply #38 on: January 10, 2021, 08:27:01 AM »
beautiful engine, runs softly with a very nice clickover...

Vimeo doesn't contains ads, if it is the point against Youtube.

Offline fumopuc

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Re: Middletons Inverted V twin
« Reply #39 on: January 14, 2021, 01:13:04 PM »
A very smooth runner.
Congratulations, a very nice build.



Kind Regards
Achim

Online gary.a.ayres

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Re: Middletons Inverted V twin
« Reply #40 on: January 14, 2021, 01:39:21 PM »
Just checked out the video on Rumble. Fabulous!

 :cheers: