Mercedes-Benz W165 Grand Prix engine in 1:3 scale

[Laurentic]

Re Reply#822 - second sentence: I'm still following along, just not very vocal Mike.  As usual, am in admiration.

Chris

[cnr6400]

I was wondering if Crash would have a go at gettin a tune outa that assembly! 
 

[gadabout]

I’m always following anything that’s has Mr Vixens name on it!! Your work mesmerises  me!!! I don’t usually comment because I’m alway speechless….

[Roger B]

That's some splendid plumbing    A very complicated system with too many possible failure points under vibration 

[Laurentic]

Out of interest I did check out the Leister Heat Gun, maybe add it to the "someday wish list" - but it's price is way above my pay grade! 

It did lead me into thinking maybe convert the usual DIY electric hot air gun used for paint stripping - a thought that lasted all of about half a second or so when it's operating temperature was factored in.  Sadly for me, its back to the gas blow torch!

Totally agree with Roger re "That's some splendid plumbing" but - absolutely!

Chris

[steamer]

Ok   now I get it    that is the same approach I'm taking on my build.   At least for the rod  mains and gears

Dave

[Vixen]

A little more history. The designer of the M165

Thank you all for calling in and providing so much encouragement, far too many to name individually.

Ok   now I get it    that is the same approach I'm taking on my build.   At least for the rod  mains and gears

Dave

Dave, that's not surprising as we are both taking a very similar route with our Schilling style built up crankshafts.

That's some splendid plumbing    A very complicated system with too many possible failure points under vibration 

Roger, I totally agree with you about the over complicated pipework and potential failure points. The choice of soft soldered copper/brass pipework seems an odd choice, given the materials ability to work-harden, potentially leading to enbrittalment and fatigue cracking.

A look at some more history from the 1930,s era may give a clue to how this could have happened.

Hitler was a keen on motor racing, More correctly, he was obsessed with power, winning and the propaganda derived from displays of German engineering might. Under his instruction, the State provided huge financial support to both Mercedes Benz and Auto Union in terms of direct funding, grants and lucrative military contracts. In return he wanted/ demanded success on the race track to demonstrate his strength to the world. This success he duly received. The Mercedes and Auto Union 'Silver Arrows' cars, became an unbeatable force and totally dominated Grand Prix racing throughout the 1930's

The 1930 was also an era of rapid technical advancement and also an era where one man, usually the chief design engineer could rise to control the whole of a companies engineering activities. Design was lead by the one man 'he who must be obeyed' rather than by a team of specialist engineers. You can see this in the way Roy Feddon lead the design of Bristol aero engines. How Dr Ferdinand Porsche lead the design of the Auto Union race cars. How Rudolf Uhlenhaut did the same at Mercedes Benz

The huge amounts of state funding and the absolute need to win on the race track, placed great pressure on the shoulders of the company designers. The Silver Arrows quickly became the dominant force totally eclipsing the opposition. The sports governing body, the A.I.A.C.R. (forerunner of today's FIA) did what they could to cut back the dominance of the German cars,  by issuing ever more restrictive technical requirements, every two years or so (usually by reducing engine capacity), in an attempt to reduce the engine power and to try to level the playing field. It made little difference, because big funding and huge resources will always find a way.

At Mercedes Benz, Rudolf Uhlenhaut was under tremendous pressure. Trying to satisfy his lords and masters demands for more and more track success, at the same time having to respond the every technical capacity rule change with a new engine design, while at the same time pushing technological advances as fast as possible. Money, however,  was never and obstacle. By 1938/9 his GP engines sported two stage compound superchargers pumping an exotic chemical cocktail of volatile fuel into the engine an unbelievable pressure of 2.6 Bar. That was a lot of work to ask of one man. While concentrating hard on these technical advances, some basic parts of the design were perhaps neglected and left unchanged. "We have always done it that way, so no need to change". I guess that why the Mercedes obsession for multiple oil pumps (7 on the W165) and external plumbing and the hand welded fabricated cylinder blocks


were carried over with each successive engine design, all the way through from the SLK cars of the late 1920's all the way through to the Fangio's W196 of the 1950's. Also why Ferdinand Porsche insisted on using  the same swing arm suspension design in the VW Beetle (Peoples Car) as well as the Auto Union race cars. Reasonably safe in the VW but potentially lethal in a 700 HP race car if you lifted off the throttle, mid corner.

Sometimes the technology race and the 'one man band' approach can maybe blind side the designers to the some of the more fundamental, basic design weaknesses. There is a lot to be said for devolving the design responsibility to a team of specialist engineers rather than a single voice 'who must be obeyed'.

The MB Silver Arrows were all tremendously fast but fragile, they lacked reliability; many cars would brake down and fail to reach the finish line. However the huge State funding helped there as well. Mercedes would often enter four or sometime five cars for a single Grand Prix. If the lead car, usually the MB star driver Rudi Caracciola, suffered a technical failure and retired, the team manager would call in the next leading MB car and  Caracciola would take over the drive and try to regain the lead of the race the race.

How times change!!

Out of interest I did check out the Leister Heat Gun, maybe add it to the "someday wish list" - but it's price is way above my pay grade! 

It did lead me into thinking maybe convert the usual DIY electric hot air gun used for paint stripping - a thought that lasted all of about half a second or so when it's operating temperature was factored in.  Sadly for me, its back to the gas blow torch!

Totally agree with Roger re "That's some splendid plumbing" but - absolutely!

Chris

Chris,  The Leister air gun is no ordinary run of the mill paint stripper or heat shrink gun, it is a serious weapon, with a purpose. it's uncanny to see The invisable hot air jet burn a hole through a sheet of paper or card, or set fire to a piece of timber, or melt solder.

Cheers   

Mike

[Twizseven]

Mike,
You are making a fantastic job of that engine.  The pipework is amazing.

The history lesson is fascinating. 

Colin

[Vixen]

Thank you Colin,

I am trying to record some of that exciting bygone era, both in metal, and some of the history in these pages. Pleased you enjoy the history as well as the build.

Cheers   

Mike

[Laurentic]

Mike - the comment re Leister heat gun v DIY paint stripper heat gun was made rather tongue-in-cheek, certainly no way a serious suggestion.  Me just being whimsical!

Loved your discourse on F1 in the 1930's.   Just reading Calum E Douglas's "The Secret Horsepower Race", describing the fighter aero engine development in Britain, USA and Germany immediately before and during WW2.  Only about an 1/8th of the way through - its a very big book with very small print - but everything you said about firms being dominated by one man "who must be obeyed" is there too.  Very interesting book and makes one realise how much we take for granted today, re fuel octanes, special metals, engine technology, etc., etc., was so cutting edge back then, being learned very much the hard way with no computers to do endless calcs either, although the methodology was the same as todays calcs.  Interestingly, much of what was learnt then is still in use today and in todays F1 engines.  Well worth the read.

Chris

[Vixen]

Today's F1,  (Formula One) motor racing has its roots in the European Grand Prix championships of the 1920s and 1930s,  the  modern Formula One began in 1946 with the FIA (Fédération Internationale de l'Automobile) assumed control and standardisation of the technical rules, which was followed by a World Championship of Drivers in 1950.  The old style Grand Prix racing was just that; a race for the big cash prize.

One of the enduring Mercedes myths and legends, states that the 1.5 litre W165 was designed and built in just 8 months just to compete in the 1939 Triploi Grand Prix (really BIG prize money and kudos for that race). Back then, Tripoli was an Italian province and the Italians attempted to side step the Silver Arrows dominance by changing the technical regulations to 1.5 litre, voiturette (small car) rules at the very last moment.  I hardly think that was possible for MB to design a race winning car in such a short timescale. The truth is that the GP technical regulations were likely to change from 3.0 litre supercharged  to 1.5 litre supercharged engines in 1940 or 1941 anyway. Unfortunately, world events prevented that from happening.  Mercedes Benz had probably already started doing their homework sometime before the decision to do the Tripoli race.

When motor racing resumed in 1946 the F1 regulations specified the anticipated 1.5 litre supercharged engines and the older Italian 1.5 litre (voiturette) cars had a field day. The MB W165 would have been eligible but MB were in no fit state to participate. Interestingly, the W165 design was thoroughly investigated and reported by the British Intelligence service. The rear mounted, combined gearbox and differential design from the W165 found it's way into the rear of the amazing 1.5 litre BRM V16. It's engine reportedly capable of producing up to 600HP; but it was so unreliable, it never achieved a full race distance.

Cheers

Mike

[cnr6400]

 
All fascinating stuff guys!

[Laurentic]

"The Secret Horsepower Race" also available from www.mortonsbooks.co.uk (according to an ad in Model Engineering Workshop magazine) priced £35 but the code "FLASH20" still works to get 20% off until 31/12/22. Santa - are you there?

Chris

[Kim]

Mike,
You are making a fantastic job of that engine.  The pipework is amazing.

The history lesson is fascinating. 

Colin

Yes! I agree on all points!  Really enjoyed the history lesson!
And you're doing a fantastic job on the engine!

Kim

[jcge]

Mike - your work is simply breathtaking !!!
John