Author Topic: 'WIDE A WAKE' a steam launch tale  (Read 233774 times)

Offline b.lindsey

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Re: 'WIDE A WAKE' a steam launch tale
« Reply #180 on: July 20, 2014, 01:51:57 AM »
Nice to see this update Ramon. The burner looks good, but I would agree, the yellow flame still looks somewhat longer than desired. Hopefully the smaller drills will correct that.

Bill

Offline Robert Hornby

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Re: 'WIDE A WAKE' a steam launch tale
« Reply #181 on: July 20, 2014, 07:40:07 AM »
Thanks Ramon, and your experience with the burner is taking my interest greatly as I am in the middle of making mine, although my boiler is a vertical type but the principles will be similar.
Robert
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Offline K.B.C

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Re: 'WIDE A WAKE' a steam launch tale
« Reply #182 on: July 20, 2014, 12:18:34 PM »
Ramon,
Your burner is getting too much air, hence the long flame and it will also give you a very bad head ache as the L.P.G. gases are not burning properly.

If you have a look at pic No 1 of the 1.5" dia burner you will see that I have made an adjustable sleeve in order to get the correct burn, this slides along the main tube to regulate the air.


In pic No 2  for the 2" dia burner I have made the jet holder so that it can slide thro' and be adjustable  to cover the air holes to get the correct burn

Pic No 2 you can see the jet protruding thro' the hole adjusting the air intake and the Ceramic plate glowing nearly white hot.

I hope this helps.

George.
Your never too old to learn.

Offline Ramon Wilson

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Re: 'WIDE A WAKE' a steam launch tale
« Reply #183 on: July 20, 2014, 06:13:09 PM »
Hi Guys - glad you are still hanging on in here  :)

George - this is not to disagree with you but I was surprised to hear you think this is down to too much air. I was under the impression that the yellow flame was due to lack of oxygen for the given jet size/primary air hole size. I will make an adjustable sleeve as you suggest however and try. The jet holder is adjustable but the positioning of this seems to be having very little effect on the flame. Pushed right in it protrudes about half way across the holes which softens the flame slightly and increases the yellow. With the jet well back from the holes the blue intensifies slightly and the yellow reduces more so.

At this stage until I can fit smaller jets I can't do much to reduce the volume of gas flowing but I will try your suggestion and take pics of the results.

Thanks again for looking in

Regards - Ramon
"I ain't here for the long time but I am here for a good time"
(a very apt phrase - thanks to a well meaning MEM friend)

Offline Jasonb

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Re: 'WIDE A WAKE' a steam launch tale
« Reply #184 on: July 20, 2014, 06:27:10 PM »
I was thinking the same Ramon, take a bunsen burner and with the hole closed you get the big orange flame, open it up and you get the more concentrated blue flame?

Burner looks good though shame you could not use you bit of brass from the show.

J

Offline Tennessee Whiskey

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Re: 'WIDE A WAKE' a steam launch tale
« Reply #185 on: July 20, 2014, 07:45:15 PM »
I think you could just rephrase and say you're not getting enough gas for the amount of air (oxygen). If you light an oxy-act  torch and get that long yellow soot producing flame you either turn up the oxy or turn down the acetylene .
 

Whiskey

Offline K.B.C

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Re: 'WIDE A WAKE' a steam launch tale
« Reply #186 on: July 20, 2014, 08:32:57 PM »
Hi Guys - glad you are still hanging on in here  :)

George - this is not to disagree with you but I was surprised to hear you think this is down to too much air. I was under the impression that the yellow flame was due to lack of oxygen for the given jet size/primary air hole size. I will make an adjustable sleeve as you suggest however and try. The jet holder is adjustable but the positioning of this seems to be having very little effect on the flame. Pushed right in it protrudes about half way across the holes which softens the flame slightly and increases the yellow. With the jet well back from the holes the blue intensifies slightly and the yellow reduces more so.

At this stage until I can fit smaller jets I can't do much to reduce the volume of gas flowing but I will try your suggestion and take pics of the results.

Thanks again for looking in

Regards - Ramon




OOP'S

Sorry guys, wrong way round but if you can make the air hole adjustable or the jet movable you can adjust the burn, just like the old Bunsen burners at College.

i have never been able to ascertain what the hole sizes are but I use No 8 jets as stamped on the hex of the jet.

George.
Your never too old to learn.

Offline Ramon Wilson

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Re: 'WIDE A WAKE' a steam launch tale
« Reply #187 on: July 20, 2014, 09:03:04 PM »
Hi Guys - Some good news - things have improved somewhat  :D though not quite as anticipated.

This is before I saw Georges post ....

Okay first off I fitted a slide cover as suggested and pushed the jet forwards leaving the air holes fully open. Fired it up and set the gas to give a flame about 5-6" high - still yellowish and not 'fierce'


Then I closed off the holes gradually until near closed. As expected this turned the flame much softer and it became very yellow and smoky - as Eric says - lack of oxy


Then I pulled the slider back and pulled the jet out as far as it could go. Noticeable difference in sound coming from the jet and a flame very much looking like something that I imagine is required


With the lights out the flame pattern could be seen better - the ceramic glowing evenly all over on its high  points




This looks much more yellow/orange in the image than in reality - the flame is also holding its shape better


Last thing was to hold a steel rod in there to see if the heat was even across the area. I know it looks as if it's on the edge of the flame but that's due to the camera angle - it's actually right across the middle of the flame.


But why would that be like that tonight ? - I had after all tried with the jet pulled right out on the previous attempt  :-\

Well the only thing I can think of at this stage is that tonight I left the burner in it's mounting ring - perhaps that prevented air being drawn in from around the flame? Whatever - I shall still pursue the smaller jet size - it seems to guzzle the gas  ::)

I think however I'm now on the right track so thanks again for interest

Regards - Ramon
"I ain't here for the long time but I am here for a good time"
(a very apt phrase - thanks to a well meaning MEM friend)

Offline K.B.C

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Re: 'WIDE A WAKE' a steam launch tale
« Reply #188 on: July 20, 2014, 09:25:09 PM »
Hi Guys - Some good news - things have improved somewhat  :D though not quite as anticipated.

This is before I saw Georges post ....

Okay first off I fitted a slide cover as suggested and pushed the jet forwards leaving the air holes fully open. Fired it up and set the gas to give a flame about 5-6" high - still yellowish and not 'fierce'


Then I closed off the holes gradually until near closed. As expected this turned the flame much softer and it became very yellow and smoky - as Eric says - lack of oxy


Then I pulled the slider back and pulled the jet out as far as it could go. Noticeable difference in sound coming from the jet and a flame very much looking like something that I imagine is required


With the lights out the flame pattern could be seen better - the ceramic glowing evenly all over on its high  points




This looks much more yellow/orange in the image than in reality - the flame is also holding its shape better


Last thing was to hold a steel rod in there to see if the heat was even across the area. I know it looks as if it's on the edge of the flame but that's due to the camera angle - it's actually right across the middle of the flame.


But why would that be like that tonight ? - I had after all tried with the jet pulled right out on the previous attempt  :-\

Well the only thing I can think of at this stage is that tonight I left the burner in it's mounting ring - perhaps that prevented air being drawn in from around the flame? Whatever - I shall still pursue the smaller jet size - it seems to guzzle the gas  ::)

I think however I'm now on the right track so thanks again for interest

Regards - Ramon

Ramon,

PLEASE, PLEASE do not use Silicone fuel tube on your burner, in your first pic  it looks as tho' the tube is about to come off,
use hard fuel lines, copper pipe with soldered joints and nipples.
Working with L.P.G. you must be very careful, using Silicone tubing is a disaster waiting to happen.

Trust me, I have been in close proximity when a silicone tube came adrift and set a work bench on fire badly burning the chap using it.

George.
 
Your never too old to learn.

Offline Ramon Wilson

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Re: 'WIDE A WAKE' a steam launch tale
« Reply #189 on: July 20, 2014, 09:37:34 PM »
Thanks for that George - so keen was I to see what would transpire I did not consider that setting fire to myself was a distinct possibility  :facepalm2: - Hmmm  :thinking: that does seem to be a characteristic of mine  ::) - not thinking ? or setting fire to myself? - well you'll have to decide guys  ;)

Seriously - thanks George

Now, what about that flame then  ;)

Regards - Ramon

"I ain't here for the long time but I am here for a good time"
(a very apt phrase - thanks to a well meaning MEM friend)

Offline K.B.C

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Re: 'WIDE A WAKE' a steam launch tale
« Reply #190 on: July 20, 2014, 10:38:07 PM »
Thanks for that George - so keen was I to see what would transpire I did not consider that setting fire to myself was a distinct possibility  :facepalm2: - Hmmm  :thinking: that does seem to be a characteristic of mine  ::) - not thinking ? or setting fire to myself? - well you'll have to decide guys  ;)

Seriously - thanks George

Now, what about that flame then  ;)

Regards - Ramon



Hi Ramon.

Unfortunately I have never made a Ceramic burner to fit inside a fire tube, they have all been for Vertical boilers and Yarrow type boilers.

If you can get a piece of steel rod to glow red you are not far off.

I wouldn't go to a smaller jet as you increase the velocity of the gas and can get blow back .
Just turn the control valve down and don't use so much gas.
I would try and fill the boiler, fit the burner and see how long it takes to boil.

Here are some pics of a Ceramic burner made for a Yarrow boiler.

George.

Your never too old to learn.

Offline Maryak

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Re: 'WIDE A WAKE' a steam launch tale
« Reply #191 on: July 21, 2014, 05:25:31 AM »
Hi Ramon,

I assume, (makes an ass out of u & me), that in the boiler furnace tube your burner will be mounted at 900 to your test burns in the open. Somehow this seems at odds with the ceramics and may need some kind of forced/induced draft to get the flame more horizontal.

The type of burner shown for a Yarrow boiler may be more appropriate and can be sized to slide into the furnace. This rectangular shaped burner is in many ways similar to a bed of coal on a grate.

Just my 1 bob's worth

Best Regards
Bob
Если вы у Тетушки были яйца, она была бы Дядюшкой

Offline K.B.C

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Re: 'WIDE A WAKE' a steam launch tale
« Reply #192 on: July 21, 2014, 10:45:24 AM »
Hi Ramon,

I assume, (makes an ass out of u & me), that in the boiler furnace tube your burner will be mounted at 900 to your test burns in the open. Somehow this seems at odds with the ceramics and may need some kind of forced/induced draft to get the flame more horizontal.

The type of burner shown for a Yarrow boiler may be more appropriate and can be sized to slide into the furnace. This rectangular shaped burner is in many ways similar to a bed of coal on a grate.

Just my 1 bob's worth

Best Regards
Bob


Bob,
These Ceramic burners work very well in Horizontal boilers.
In the U.K. we have a boiler making company ( maccsteam ) who make and sell horizontal and vertical copper boilers.
There is no problem using these Ceramic burners but it does help a bit if the engine exhaust is directed up the chimney ,acting like the blower on a Loco.

On the horizontal boilers that I have made I always use the head from a plumbers blow lamp to fire the boiler.
As you have suggested a flat type Ceramic would work but the firing tube would need to be a very large dia.
The Ceramic block is 1/2 thk and the box needs to be large enough to take the mixing tube which is 3/8" dia with a space between the mixing tube and the underside of the Ceramic block making the O/All height approx 1" and then at least 1/2" from top of Ceramic to the underside of the fire tube, so a very large dia fire tube is required, bearing in mind that the box for the burner needs to be about 1" wide.

Here are some pics of how I fire Horizontal return flue Scotch boilers.

George.

P.S.

What has happened to your steel boiler build ?
Have you had it pressure tested yet ?

« Last Edit: July 21, 2014, 11:04:44 AM by K.B.C »
Your never too old to learn.

Offline Ramon Wilson

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Re: 'WIDE A WAKE' a steam launch tale
« Reply #193 on: July 21, 2014, 12:14:20 PM »
Hi Bob - thanks for your interest and George for your input.

Please bear in mind that I have no experience with this kind of burner either in vertical or horizontal mode so all comments are of value  :ThumbsUp:.

At this stage though, as I'm sure you would agree, I need to keep closely to Sandy's design to begin with so will make new jets if nothing else but to compare / see how they perform as at the moment, although it now appears to be in the right area, I have no idea of the actual jet size.

Bob - George has explained the background behind this type of burner which as he says has been used in this mode in many boilers. The boiler, with it's spiral array of flue tubes has been designed for it as such and there just is not room to fit a flat type burner of any length anyway. I do intend to induce a draft on start up - parts for a flue extractor fan obtained courtesy of a good friend only last week. The original design called for an inner flue too so that will be fitted along with a steam blower jet directed upwards.

George - I don't want to steam it until it's been given it's first (official) hydraulic test which hopefully will be next week. By then I should have all the fittings made/re-furbished and will be able to set to then to give it a good steam test.

And once more - Thanks again George for bringing the silicone tube to my attention - having thought about it over night I do feel a bit of a silly boy  ::)

Regards - Ramon

PS Robert - PM sent on pump details
"I ain't here for the long time but I am here for a good time"
(a very apt phrase - thanks to a well meaning MEM friend)

Offline strictlybusiness1

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Re: 'WIDE A WAKE' a steam launch tale
« Reply #194 on: July 21, 2014, 01:19:43 PM »
Ramon,

I read your entire post from beginning to end. I'm totally impressed with the craftsmanship displayed in both wood & metal. I great deal of dedication, technical knowledge & perseverance is required to complete projects such as this. I will certainly be following your progress until this project is completed.

Jim Allen (strictlybusiness1)

 

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