The "ORIENTAL"

[maury]

Recently while poking around on the Smokstack, I ran across this
incredible gem.  After doing a little recon, I discovered the restoration
was done by Bill Prine, a restorer and collector of old engines. It is a
two cylinder vertical built by the "Oriental" Engine Co. in San Francisco
Cal.
Aparently the Oriental engine Co. was
a short lived engine company, and there are few remaining examples of
their work.  a video and brief history of this engine Are available at:

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YEJl4y4UPA" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YEJl4y4UPA</a>

The engine is on display Powerland Heritage Park museum in Brooks Oregon.
Don't know for sure, but my belief is that this is the only one in existence.

I want to thank Bill for his excellent work in restoring this engine, and
the generous help cooperation he has given me getting started with
modeling this engine.
I also want to give another big thanks to Roland Morrison who made
a series of sketches during the restoration. He has generously shared
these sketches with me.

Maury
Lone Star Engine Works Retired

[Jasonb]

A bit of a stretched bottle engine converted to gas!

Looks like face cam works the exhausts so assume atmospheric inlet. The other small crank operates the ignitor.

Looks like they have it plumbed up to bottled gas but would it have had some form of vapour tank/carb in the base?

[vtsteam]

Wow, a very interesting design in so many ways! Sort of a combination bottle engine and Westinghouse twin but gas powered, with two radial valves and a table cam.   

[Dave Otto]

This will be fun to watch, kind of like a double Pacific.

Attached are a couple better photos of Bill's engine at Antique Power Land. My understanding is this engine was installed in a paddle wheel work boat on American Falls reservoir in South Eastern Idaho. It was used for dredging if I'm not mistaken. At some point the boat sank and it along with the engine sat at the bottom of the reservoir for many years. At some point the reservoir was drained or substantially lowered which exposed the remains of the boat and engine. A local farmer was able to pull the engine out of the mud and he had it at his place out doors as a yard ornament. Bill told me that more damage was done to the engine sitting out in the weather than all the years under water in the lake. Bill was able to acquire the engine from the farmer and did an amazing job of restoring it to the state that it is in today. I think the sub base may not be original, in a marine application I would think that it would have just been mounted to the frames in the boat, just my guess.

According to Jack Alexander's book (The Reagan Vapor Engine) Oriental was in business from 1889 to 1902, there are about 6 pages in the book dedicated to the Oriental engine.

Dave

[maury]

Yeah, I don't believe they had bottled propane in 1893. I suspect there was some kind of vapor device
with the engine. Having been under water for 50 years, I imagine what ever it was is lost. Having
studied the French Forest engine designs, I ran across some of his vapor devices. At this time probably won't
do that.

Also, I don't see a water pump in the pictures or sketches. On an engine this size there must have been one.
Ill probably have to come up with a solution.

I have a Sanfrancisco Standard I'm currently working on. I see several similarities. Also, I'm noticing a general
regional design trend. West coast engine designs in general have flywheels which are a bit larger in diameter
wider rim, and thinner spokes, than the mid west designs with somewhat bulkier smaller diameter flywheels.

This is what I would call a larger engine. Certanly not a Fairbanks "R", but still big. It has 10.5" bore, 14" stroke.
Big enough for a river paddle wheel boat. I'm thinking a scale to about 2" bore would work well in my shop.
Can't do much larger, and my fingers no longer work well enough to make it much smaller.

Thanks for the photos Dave, they are more clear than the ones I have.

Y'all enjoy
maury

[maury]

Let the CAD begin. After reviewing the pictures and drawings I have, I decided ib  3/16 scale.
I'm starting with the cylinders, as they impact the crank case  & components, and the valve
cages. I believe the cylinders and crank case were all cast as one part on the original, but it's
more practical to build the model with them separated. There is a clean line between the two
parts, so there is minimum visibility with the separation line. The  model so far is incomplete
and will require some minor tweaks. The Bore is 2", and stroke 2 1/2". The cylinders are to be
cored out and a liner added. I'm still not sure about all the water passages, and only have the
pictures of the plumbing to go by. Also, I think there will be a need for a water pump.

Maury

[CI]

 

[maury]

After studying the information I have and spending a bunch of CAD time, I have a first pass on the design.
After I made the pics I'm posting, I realized the cylinders were a bit too high, so I've fixed that. Still a long
way to go and details to add.

Through this, I have found the crank case and the flywheel and some core boxes will be too large to print on my Bambu Lab A1.
So this is a problem I still need to solve. I would very much desire to avoid making the patterns in pieces and gluing them together.

[CI]

Nice looking 3D modeling work !
.

[maury]

Thanks CI.
Long way to go yet.
I was looking at the oilers today, going to be a real challenge to make them that small.

[Dave Otto]

Would they need to be smaller than the ones that I made for my Pacific, they were quite a project.

Dave

[GRAUBELE]

Hi Dave

I really like the design of your oilers.
Are there any drawings available for free use?
I'm always looking for suitable oilers in small and medium sizes for my various steam engines and stationary engines.

Regards, Dieter

[Dave Otto]

Thanks Dieter,

I never made any official drawings for the oilers, I just copied a full sized original one that a friend had. This is an example of a pre-1900 oiler that would be appropriate on a very early west coast engine like the Oriental. I try not to make a habit of mucking up other peoples builds with my work, but thought that it would be ok this time.

Dave

[GRAUBELE]

Hi Dave

I'm currently repairing the oiler on my original 1921 "Amanco Hired Man".
The oiler leaks oil even when the adjustment needle is closed.
The glass reservoir is also leaking.
I need to reseal the adjustment needle.
I've sealed the glass reservoir with sealant.

Regards, Dieter

[maury]

Nice Oilers, Dave. I remember your Pacific build log.
Looks like the base part was cast, or did you CNC it and blast it?
Where did you get the glass? I've been using acrylic but it's really hard
to polish to a really clear finish.

maury

[Dave Otto]

Thanks Maury,

The base is a casting, Marvin cut a mold for them and Roland had them investment cast. I ended up making quite a few of them. I even did some for the Lightning Hay Press engine. I had a couple set aside for me and I let someone talk me out of them. Now when the time comes I will need to make some more. It would not be that much more work to just CNC the body, because there was a ton of work finishing the castings.
Roland found a source for the glass tubing and perfected way to cut them in the lathe, using a tool post grinder and diamond wheel. He found that using a metal collet they would always break when the blade broke through, after trying a Nylon collet he had much better luck.

Dave

[Jasonb]

I find that Micro-Mesh is good for polishing the acrylic, you can buy small sets with a range of "grits" and the final polish.

After machining



After Micro-mesh

[maury]

Nice oiler Jason. I've beem using a similar buffing setup with fine abrasive and rouge. I get about the same finish
as your oiler. I was just looking for a bit more clarity. Guess with oil in there it probably doesn't matter much.

Thanks, Dave for the info. If you have more of these cast, I'd like to add a few to the order. I was currently working
on the cylinder oiler. Just happens many moons ago I bought one of these at a show and scaled it. I made some sand
castings, but the oiler is too big for this model. I'm scaling and tweaking to get it about right, but when I do, I'll
also have the delima whether to investment cast or CNC. Investment casting has the advantage that allows me
to share with others.

[maury]

Just trying it on for size.

[CI]

 

[maury]

Y'all, the design has progressed with enough detail that I think it's safe
to start making some patterns for the castings. I'll start with the right hand
valve cage. There is a right hand and a left hand cage. The valve cages are
swiss cheese parts, so It's best to start out with the most difficult part.
These will eventually need to be gray iron, but I can cast them more quickly
at home in my foundry in aluminum. OK for just machining and design verification.

[CI]

Nice pattern work !
We need casting photos.
.

[maury]

Ok I have done the core box for the RH Valve Cage casting.
I have been using sodium silicate to bind the cores, but have had some
trouble with thin and small cores breaking. I have some investment
casting plaster, and thought I might give it a try. Has anyone made cores
using this plaster? I'd be interested in your comments. The castings
will be in aluminum.

[vtsteam]

I have not, but generally you want cores to give since the metal shrinks, and they do that by burning the core binder. Aluminum seems to put up with all kinds of abuse, but best practice is to use a normal core type.

[vtsteam]

If you cast your lower corebox itself as an aluminum part, you can use a classic sand, molasses-water, and corn starch core mix. Remove the plastic top after the core is rammed, and leave it in the lower aluminum corebox as a half-shell to bake in the oven. That way you don't have to handle it until it's hardened.

Run a couple fine wires in the core if it needs strengthening when ramming up.

Also:

Not sure how you plan to add the core mix.

It's easier if the ends of the channels/core prints end at the ends of the corebox so you can pack it through those, from the ends.

Maybe this is the reason yours have been breaking if you're trying to load it like a sandwich into a closed mold -- cores need to be rammed some -- and that takes place from the ends, where possible.

In a split corebox with no ramming, they are made as halves, hardened, and later cemented together with core cement.

[CI]

I have not tried plaster cores, but I suspect they may hold moisture or water.

Some things you could consider:
1. Use small steel wire in the core, either straight pieces, a loop, etc.
The ends of the wire should terminate in the coreprint.

2. I have used blue painter's tape on the interior of coreboxes, to help with release.
I wax the tape before and after every core is made.

3. I tried a variety of percentages of sodium silicate for cores, using CO2 to harden the core.
I thought that "more is better" when it comes to CO2, but my cores were very weak, and were breaking up.
I increased the percentage of sodium silicate, and the cores had a bit more strength, but did not want to break up after the pour due to hardness.
I finally found out that SS cores should be gassed for 5 seconds only, and while I did not believe that, I tried it.
The cores I made using the normal percentage of SS (I forget if it was 3% or 5%, but per the manufacturer's recommendation) that were gassed for 5 seconds remained usable for over a year sitting out on the open shelf.
Cores gassed for more than 5 seconds started breaking up on their own within 30 minutes.

4. Moisture in the sand may affect the binder.
Resin-bound sand has to be oven-baked dry.

SS bound cores should work without having to resort to something exotic.
Good luck.

Edit:
Perhaps drill two small holes on the opposite side of the coreprint, so you can blow CO2 into the coreprint area, and it will go through the core and out the holes on the other side.

The heavier percentages of SS seem to block the movement of CO2 through the sand.
Sticking to the recommended SS percentage gives good permeability.
I use fine sand, and that is not a problem with SS cores.


.

[maury]

Y'all, thanks for the suggestions.
The core boxes I made are for the iron foundry. They use air set sand. Their method is to make the cores in
halves and glue them together. I have made core boxes for them with open ends, but they pull out the pins
and make the cores in halves. Over the years I have learned not to try to influence the way a foundry does
their thing.

I have often thought about making molasis baked cores the way you have described. I used to use a foundry
that used that process, and it works very well with iron, suppose non-ferrous too. I'd like to try it, do you have
a recipe for the sand mix? All the of foundry guys I worked with for years are gone now.

I'm good using SS for many of my cores, and have had a lot of good luck. I just have trouble with the thin ones.
I have also tried using different mixes and have used wires with some success. Might end up going this way.
I just haven't stopped being curious about trying to improve my work- or actually just being successful.

Guess I forgot to mention baking the investment plaster. It requires slow moister removal, but I have the time.
I was going to bake cure it per the instructions, so moisture should not be a problem. Raw plaster would
probably explode in the mold

Shown are the left and right head patterns. I toyed with the idea of coring out the combustion passage,
but there is no good way of supporting the core on both ends. It'll just be more fun to mill out the cavity.

[CI]

I know people use the methods that work for them in the foundry world, but if there are better methods, then using dated methods seems counterproductive.
The best cores (in my opinion) are made from resin bound OK85 sand.
They are very strong, and have a long shelf life.
You can carve and shape these cores after making them to fine tune the size/shape.

I don't see the need to make two-piece cores.
I do have core adhesive, and while it works well to secure mold halves together, it would have to be an extremely complex core to require adhering multiple parts together (such as automotive engine block work).

The core print area of a corebox can be left open, and the mold mostly filled before closing the two halves.
Then you can final fill and ram through the coreprint area.
Makes a nice one-piece core.

The old-school foundries use to work wonders with linseed oil cores, but I don't know exactly how to use that material, and I think it requires baking.

Sodium silicate cores are pretty good material, but the cat's meow is resin-bound cores.

.

[vtsteam]

Hi @maury, this is my most recent recipe and it worked very well. Formerly I used a recipe from the Gingery books, which used wheat wallpaper paste as the starch. But I liked the corn starch as binder as just as well, and all ingredients are available in a normal kitchen (except sand). Sand shouldn't be super fine as that makes it weaker actually.

https://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,12658.msg301085.html#msg301085

I was not suggesting a core cement, btw earlier, but just saying that closed coreboxes (ie without openings at the print ends) the normal foundry practice was to ram the halves, harden or bake them, and then cement them.

I was not suggesting that you do that. but that you supply openings at the ends of your core to allow ramming through the ends with the corebox assembled. You can do this possibly with your existing 3D prints by sawing them off flush with the extension cavity's ends -- depending on the internal fill -- I guess.

I disagree that one method is "better" than another, if results are satisfactory in either case to the person who chooses that method. I don't see hobby casting as a competition. Nor "new" as necessarily better than "old". I try to be open minded, and am in it for the enjoyment. I find the smell of baked molasses cores in the kitchen more pleasant than exotic resins, and the satisfaction of using what's avaiable, inexpensive and non-toxic to be a pleasure personally, but that's my own set of choices, not everyone's.

I hope if you try it, the cores work for you by whatever method.

[vtsteam]

Oh, and if you do bake your cores as I do, don't forget to grease the pan, so to speak! A wipe of salad oil beforehand would have made my baked sand cookies release properly, last time. 

[CI]

If you get your sodium silicate percentage right, and gas for 5 seconds only, SS cores are every bit as good as cores made from synthetic materials, with a similar shelf life.
The good thing about SS cores is the low toxicity.
And another advantage of SS cores is that it is very fast to make them; there is no waiting on set or strip time.

I would like to learn the art of linseed oil cores.
They did incredible things with those cores in the day.
.

Edit:
One advantage to resin-bound cores is that the hardener is mixed throughout the core material, and so for a complex core, you don't have to try and gas every area of the core.
It should be noted that there is a catalyst material that can be used with sodium silicate cores, that works like a hardener, and that catalyst eliminates the need for CO2, and allows every complex SS cores to set completely just as if it were a resin core.
Sodium silicate catalyst can be obtained at pottery supply houses.

.
Edit02:
I flame resin-bound cores lightly with a propane flame, to drive off moisture, and burn off any slight amount of uncured resin.
I think you can do the same for sodium silicate cores, ie: lightly flame them; I can't recall if I did that or not.
I do recall baking some sodium silicate cores to be sure they were completely dry.
I try to vent all cores out the top of the mold if possible.

[Jasonb]

Doing the cores in halves is done as it is faster as you just dump the airset on top and strike it off ( hence pins removed)rather than trying to completely fill the cavity in a closed box. Also easier to get the core out of an open mould so less failure rate.

As these are commercial foundries time = money

So its should be easy to see why the most economic method is used.

The home foundry guy can spend as long as they like filling cores, backing, etc and if the first one fails then they just make another and all it has cost is a bit of their time.

[CI]

I was looking through the foundry photos that I have collected over the years, and there is someone from Australia who cast an engine for a scale tractor, and he cast the passages in the head.
Some of his passage cores extended out round into the coreprint area, and others had a square end on the coreprint to hold it at an exact angle.

Cretors used a square end on some of their cores, such as for a slanted bearing housing, to get the babbitt recess in the exact orientation.
Sometimes a round on one end of the coreprint, and a square on the opposite end coreprint.

Thinking about your two-piece corebox, I recalled some cores I made, and I used a two piece corebox that did not have a top or bottom.
You just clamp the two pieces to the table, ram with sodium silicate sand, gas, and then release the clamps.

If you need a convex or concave surface on the top or bottom of the core, you can have an insert that goes in at the bottom, and have strike off surfaces on top that are convex or concave.

Here are a few pictures of my two-piece corebox.

.

[CI]

Using a corebox that does not have a top or bottom would save you from having to make two core pieces and cement them together.

.

[RolandMM]

Hi  Maury, Thank you for inviting me to visit your build log.  I had only asked for a few pictures but this is far beyond my expectations. 

As previously mentioned by Dave Otto, Jack Anderson once told me he enjoyed writing about engines and their history more than he enjoyed working on engines.  I completely understand that as I prefer to build engines rather than comment in a forum.  I occasionally read some builds and marvel at the skill & ingenuity of the builders especially when they have few tools.

Special credit should go to Bill Prine for restoring the ORIENTAL.  It may be the only one that size and the work Bill did is remarkable.  As Dave mentioned, it spent most of its life on a lake bottom, a few years out in the weather and then years in Bill's shop. 

When I went to see the ORIENTAL, in the last century before some of you were born, it was a sad sight.  Bill had a 5 gallon bucket of mud with many broken iron pieces in it.   That was one of the cylinder heads.  I spent a couple enjoyable days in a sunny driveway putting a 3D puzzle together and getting critical measurements.  My intention was to measure & sketch enough I could build a model. 

Then life and other engines got in the way and I am overjoyed Maury is going to take this project over and share it with all of us.  Please let me know if I can be of any help.

Roland

For those who understand, no explanation is needed.
For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible.

[maury]

I've been prepping all the parts for the Oriental patterns. The 3D models get extra material for machining,
then that are scaled 1.015x. Parts that need to be split are then divided. Next draft is added, and the fillets
are added. Sometimes a also add the gating to the pattern for convenience for making the pattern board.

At this point, I have all the parts for castings are prepped and printed, except for the base, crank case,
and flywheel. They are too big for my printer or CNC machine, so I'm going to have to buy a larger printer.
Anybody have any experience with the QIDI Plus 4 3D printer?

I am starting to mount these on boards for the big pour day. So far I have the head and valve parts.
These parts are made in both a left hand and right hand version.

[Jasonb]

Is it not possible to print the larger patterns in two or more pieces and then join them together, should be stronger as you are mounting them onto boards. I have seen it done where the joints are modified to have interlocking dovetails of shaped like jigsaw puzzel pieces

Alternatively for the flywheel cut it in two halves or smaller segments. I had to do this 9" one in two different halves due to the 5 spoke pattern but it was just a case of rotating the blank 180deg and running a second cut. Or you could turn the rim on your lathe and assemble printed spokes onto the board again much like this where I machined the rim and added the CNC cut spokes

[CI]

I purchased a Prusa XL, which as a 14 inch cubed print area.
It has been stable so far, and the bed adhesion has been outstanding, which is critical as you get into a very wide print.
And does not have a problem operating without an enclosure, even with a window air conditioning unit blowing a cold draft across while printing (printing PLA).
Completely automatic build plate leveling.
Perfect first layer build every time without any manual adjustment.
The large footprint saves time by avoiding piecing patterns together.
And multiple patterns can be printed at the same time, given how much real estate is on the bed.

I am not familiar with the QIDI Plus 4.
Price looks to be very reasonable, assuming it works well.

Edit:
A review from 2024:

https://3dprint.com/313877/qidi-plus-4-3d-printer-review-hotter-than-the-competition-is-it-safe/
.

[maury]

Jason, thanks for the response. Yes, I have tried to print patterns in parts before, actually several times. I have never been totally happy with the results. I think it's ok for core boxes though. The crank case pattern I'm doing has lettering, and would have to be split on the lettering. Probably a bad idea.

CI, I have looked at the Prusa, Ultimate pattern maker, but a bit pricey. I actually prefer the QIDI Max4 , same size as the Prusa, but it's on PreOrder at this time. They will need a year to get the bugs worked out.  I got stung really bad buying the Ender 5 S1 on PreOrder, and am really gun shy about doing that again. The S1 never did work, even after weeks of going round and round with Creality customer service. Now it is just a brand new $500 piece of junk sitting in my shop. Obviously, I will NEVER buy another Creality product!!!!
The reviews on the Plus 4 are good, and it's on the 4th revision, should be a reliable printer. Price is good, and the build volume ai just enough to do my large parts.

[CI]

Basically one pays for support with Prusa up front.
I thought I had a problem with my MK3, but it turned out to be something I was doing wrong.
Prusa offered to take the machine back, no questions asked, with a full refund.
Luckily I figured it out, and the machine has worked well since, except for being picky about bed lifting.
The XL does not seem to bed lift no matter what, and so that is a really good feature.
Also, if the power goes out, the XL print picks up where it left off when the power returns.
But yes, pricey.

.

[maury]

Continuing with mounting the patterns.All total, I will have 5 patterns, which is all I have sand for. Hopefully after another week of PT on my back I'll be able to do a pour. We'll see.

[CI]

 

[maury]

Ok, I've been a little slow about posting.
After receiving the Plus 4 and getting it going, I took it out for a spin. A Really Nice Printer!
I have the flywheel, Piston, liner and core boxes. These parts go tot the iron foundry, and may take a while to get the castings back.
In the mean time, I will (I hope) be casting the previously shown patterns in aluminum in my home foundry.

[CI]

Very nice work !
.

[maury]

After a couple of bad starts with some bad filament and first layer issues, I have made progress on the crank case. The core box is in 3 pieces, as there is an overhang with the main bearing bosses. This is about 17 hours worth of printing. The crank case drag pattern took about 18 hours. I learned about filament tangles doing this exercise. If you use part of a roll and remove it from your machine for later use, be very careful to keep the winds tight while doing so, or it will backlash and cause problems.

I forsee a large avalanch of castings coming my way soon, for this project and three uncompleted ones.

[CI]

Looks great !
.

[Sanjay F]

Wow - great job, looks fantastic! 

[maury]

Ok, after a bit of a wait, the iron castings are here. I still have 5 patterns to pour in aluminum when my back quits complaining. Also, there are still the crank case and base patterns to finish and their core boxes. Moving a bit slower these says, but not stopped.

[maury]

Duhhhh, forgot the pic.

[Dave Otto]

Good to see progress Maury!

Dave