In the year 2027... [MEM competition/challenge - should we have one?]

[AdeV]

(title to be imagined to the tune of "In the year 2525" by Zager and Evans)

In July 2027, Model Engine Maker will - almost unbelievably - be 15 years old. 15! And yet, it only feels like yesterday... Oh, yesterday (damnit, stop quoting old songs!)

Anyway - this got me to thinking....

How does the membership feel about having a "challenge build"? i.e. some kind of set of rules by which to build a small engine, with various judging criteria, the winner to get, I dunno, life membership? :lol:

Whether you are, or are not, interested in such a thing - either as a participant, as a spectactor, or even if you fancy being a judge, part of the jury, or the executioner - er, I mean the prize giver - please vote above so I can gauge the level of interest.

The actual rules of the competition will be thrashed out if there seems to be interest in such a thing; but I'm thinking something along the lines of:
- Must be made on manual machines (no CNC) - or maybe categories, if there's sufficient interest
- Must be a compressed air engine (no IC engines or flame lickers) - to keep the complexity down (again, maybe categories, if it seems like a popular idea)
- Any number of cylinders
- A way of connecting it to a load (I think some kind of power test would be part of the judging)

Dunno, those are just some random thoughts. What do you think? Feel free to add ideas & suggestions below!

[Jasonb]

Although I can appreciate the manual machines only rule should the playing field also be leveled up by saying all entries must be scratch built as it would make life easier if say bought in cylinder and flywheel castings were used, infact easier than cutting the same items on a CNC.

As for a load test, that could handicap those with small machines and budgets as a big engine should produce more power than something small also those with a small compressor are not going to be able to produce such high pressures and revs.

[crueby]

Although I can appreciate the manual machines only rule should the playing field also be leveled up by saying all entries must be scratch built as it would make life easier if say bought in cylinder and flywheel castings were used, infact easier than cutting the same items on a CNC.

As for a load test, that could handicap those with small machines and budgets as a big engine should produce more power than something small also those with a small compressor are not going to be able to produce such high pressures and revs.

So that would be bar stock built, no castings? I'd like that, since that is how I build anyway!   

What about a one-design engine, everyone building the same thing? Or let everyone design their own?

[vtsteam]

I like it!

I vote for castings being okay, with the proviso that if you are going to use them, you would have to design and make your own, and you would have to do it for the contest, not just cast some pattern you already had, and you would have to show your process. You could also use plumbing fittings -- some of which were cast (my avatar engine is made completely from plumbing fittings)

I think the max displacement should be set, if you are going to give some consideration to power produced. Could be multi-cylinder, but must adhere to the disp. max.

[Mike R]

Well, I may be able to submit a model started in 2017 as it may actually be completed by 2027 or maybe not...
As for CNC, its merits / advantages over manual in building a one-off example are not huge and should not in my opinion rule out eligibility (I don't have a  manual mill) - I can scrap just as much or more as the manual guys!

[vtsteam]

Hoping that the project would need to start during the contest period.

[Jasonb]

Yes, I think there should be a set period from when the final critera are announced to completion so everyone has the same time to design and build not just finish off something they have already done work on be that just design or some building.

The problem with setting any criteria is that you either need narrow it down to make things equal  which risks excluding some possible participants, we have already seen that one ha sdone away with their manual mill. Or you make it mor eflexible or different classes which either make it hard to judge an engine built with just a lathe and pencil sketches against one made with CNC, 3D printing and CAD. The problem with different catagories is you need a good number of people in each to make it feel like they have won which does not work if there is only one entry in their class. And like team builds you will get those who are keen at this stage but drop out along the way so final numbers of entries is likely to be smaller than those voting for the first option.

A set engine design is another possible but ideally needs to be new so all making for the first time, size needs to fit all workshops and budgets although I suppose if designed so it could be done from barstock then it could be scaled up or down and would also need to take into account those building in metric as well as imperial. Other constraints could be a max size cube the engine will fit into. one or two set parts which frees up the rest of the design, etc

Don't have a problem if someone wanted to cast any of the parts rather than use barstock, my comment was more to counter the belief that CNC is the easy way. I did say "bought in" castings

[Jasonb]

Then it comes to who will judge the entries?

Certainly some here who seem anti CNC so would there be equal judging if it were allowed? Similar with castings there are those that don't like fabrication or cutting from solid.

Would having the entrants as the judges be an option each having a vote for what they feel was the winner from the selection of completed entries, obviously not able to vote for their own entry.

[AVTUR]

Nice idea. It's rather like the Irish 24 hours "Le Mans" race for Citroen 2CVs, great fun until someone became serious and wanted to win. Mind you, those sort of entries are the most interesting because of innovation and bending of the rules. Therefore careful thinking is needed about the model with a few simple rules, say a beam engine with double acting single cylinder 20mm x 20mm bore and stroke, no reversing gear. Don't worry about the use of CNC machining or castings.

As for competing, I would certainly do a design in cold or very hot weather. Whether I would use precious workshop time on an entry is another question. I am more likely to stand at the side and shake the tambourine.

I will vote on Christmas morning.

AVTUR

[AdeV]

Thank you all for your responses so far! Based on what I see, it might actually have legs, this one...

IMHO there's a couple of important considerations: It has to be possible to do within the time available (and I'm aware that these things can take ages...); and it should be open to as many people with as many skill levels as possible. For me, that's probably going to be the hardest thing for us to get right - how to let someone who's making their first engine compete on as level as possible a playing field as someone who's been making engines for 30 years or more...

WRT CNC, Castings, etc.: Once we've found the level of interest, we can see what to do about such things. IMHO figuring out the judging criteria will probably guide us as to what is/is not applicable.  To pick up on one specific point though, wrt castings; if castings are an option, I think they either have to be commercially available, or maybe we could commission a set ourselves (as MEM) - most people won't have the ability or equipment to make their own from scratch, so whilst those of you who DO possess those skills/equipment would probably love to show them off; I feel that would exclude too many people. But if we can do our own... well... maybe?  As it happens, I still have Rob Wilson's (RIP Rob) casting set up that I bought some years ago... if anyone reading has good casting skills & is willing to wander over to Birkenhead (near Liverpool) to give me a crash course on casting... maybe I could actually make kits myself!

Anyway.... let's see if we get enough interest first... 

[Jasonb]

Just a thought, would a less cryptic title attract more interest. Some people skip by chatterbox topics.

I suppose you nee dto allow for people dropping out for one reason or another, people who loose interest when the final subject and criteria are given and those that may not complete. Could be 50% of what we have at the moment.

[PaulR]

From a novice's perspective:

There's no way I would enter into a 'competition' with other builders who have vastly more skill, experience and equipment, it would be futile and despondency inducing! The many expert builders here will probably have built most of the essential types of engine already and will have various go-to designs in their head. Similarly, those with more sophisticated tools, equipment, design experience, a large stock of materials and lots of free time would have a substantial advantage if there was a time limit.

I think it would be more fun if it was based on novelty and creativity... does anyone want to judge which of half a dozen expertly made engines of the same type is 'the best'?

I'd add in some silliness, for example, build an engine which:

• has cylinders that face in opposite directions but drives a single flywheel
• has one cylinder which is three times the size of the other
• has two or more cylinders operated by different types of valve
• is made entirely from a single material
• doesn't have any threaded components
• is made exclusively from round or tubular stock
• is made from a specified number and size of bars eg four 1"x4" bars, two in brass and two in steel

You get the idea. Possibly not the sort of bonkers thing serious builders would be interested in I guess but it might lead to some fun and interesting engines.

If it does take off, I'd prefer to see different engines rather than them all being small variations of essentially the same engine.

[AdeV]

Just a thought, would a less cryptic title attract more interest. Some people skip by chatterbox topics.

I suppose you nee dto allow for people dropping out for one reason or another, people who loose interest when the final subject and criteria are given and those that may not complete. Could be 50% of what we have at the moment.

Good thinking - I'll put something in Announcements too, also less cryptic... I was in a funny mood last night...

Agree about people dropping out; but ultimately this should be a fun thing, not something onerous - but maybe there will be a bit of a prize at the end of it that people will like... dunno, have to see. Watch this space!

From a novice's perspective:

There's no way I would enter into a 'competition' with other builders who have vastly more skill, experience and equipment, it would be futile and despondency inducing! The many expert builders here will probably have built most of the essential types of engine already and will have various go-to designs in their head. Similarly, those with more sophisticated tools, equipment, design experience, a large stock of materials and lots of free time would have a substantial advantage if there was a time limit.

Yes - I totally get that. However, one can't also exclude the skilled builders by making it focused entirely on novices... Getting the challenge right is also a challenge! And we might not get it right this time either... time (will/may) tell.

I think it would be more fun if it was based on novelty and creativity... does anyone want to judge which of half a dozen expertly made engines of the same type is 'the best'?

...

You get the idea. Possibly not the sort of bonkers thing serious builders would be interested in I guess but it might lead to some fun and interesting engines.

If it does take off, I'd prefer to see different engines rather than them all being small variations of essentially the same engine.

Some great thoughts there, thanks! When/If it comes to be - I'll definitely be looking for ideas like that to build the rules up. And don't worry, it's not just going to be things like "most accurate miniature real engine with the correct number of scale rivets" or stuff like that. IMHO the most important thing is that it's fun to enter, and anyone can do it. The TWO most important things... fun to enter, anyone can do it, and no-one needs to take it seriously THREE (cue Monty Python).

[AdeV]

As a PS... I've been thinking of this more as a challenge than a competition... although there would be some judging & winner(s): But I'd like to think that we can come up with something where the taking part is more rewarding than the actual winning... Is that even possible? I don't know... but here's hoping! 

[Minh Thanh]

 Hi !
 Some thoughts:

- How long will it last? Or is it just for the 15th anniversary?

- Is it similar to the HMEM forum? If it is similar to HMEM, then it should be reconsidered.

[crueby]

In the RC sailboat world, they have a class of boats called the 'footies' where all the parts have to fit (with mast off the hull) in a one foot cube. You could do the MEM-1-2-3 Challenge where the engine would have to fit in the space of a 1-2-3 block, 1"x2"x3", maybe?

[Vixen]

As a PS... I've been thinking of this more as a challenge than a competition... although there would be some judging & winner(s): But I'd like to think that we can come up with something where the taking part is more rewarding than the actual winning... Is that even possible? I don't know... but here's hoping! 

Ade
It occurs to me that we can beak this down into two separate parts.

The Challenge would be to design something revolutionary, innovative, creative or even wild; based on a simple (wide open to interpretation) design requirement such as "Beam engine with double acting cylinder". This would allow our creative juices to flow and should generate some amusing entries/ contributions.

The Competition would be to make a good looking working version, based on the same simple design requirement.

Personally, I would enjoy having a go at the above design Challenge but not the making part. I do not have any manual machines in the workshop and not made an air/ steam engine in the last 40+ years. I also echo AVTUR's thoughts; I would prefer to use my workshop time on my main projects.

Agreed, a lifetime membership of MEM would be a suitable reward

Happy Christmas

Mike

[vtsteam]

A consideration for me at least, materials should be inexpensive and readily available. I once suggested a competition with the only requirements being the engine must be made from only plumbing pipe or fittings and nails and bolts. This kind of thing fosters creativity, a wide range of expression, makes it generally accessible to different levels of skill, creates a fun atmosphere, and keeps cost within reason. The second part of that was judging was by all registered users in the form of a poll, so no onus fell upon any particular judge or set of preferences.

I think it worked out well, and it could be done again here, if desired, or something similar.

[PaulR]

A consideration for me at least, materials should be inexpensive and readily available. I once suggested a competition with the only requirements being the engine must be made from only plumbing pipe or fittings and nails and bolts. This kind of thing fosters creativity, a wide range of expression, makes it generally accessible to different levels of skill, creates a fun atmosphere, and keeps cost within reason. The second part of that was judging was by all registered users in the form of a poll, so no onus fell upon any particular judge or set of preferences.

I think it worked out well, and it could be done again here, if desired, or something similar.

Yep, this is the sort of thing I was thinking of. Or maybe any materials but hand tools only (gasp!  )

[crueby]

A consideration for me at least, materials should be inexpensive and readily available. I once suggested a competition with the only requirements being the engine must be made from only plumbing pipe or fittings and nails and bolts. This kind of thing fosters creativity, a wide range of expression, makes it generally accessible to different levels of skill, creates a fun atmosphere, and keeps cost within reason. The second part of that was judging was by all registered users in the form of a poll, so no onus fell upon any particular judge or set of preferences.

I think it worked out well, and it could be done again here, if desired, or something similar.

Yep, this is the sort of thing I was thinking of. Or maybe any materials but hand tools only (gasp!  )

Hand tools only...        Okay, starting that 2" cylinder bore with a hand drill, a 1/4" bit, and a file...   
 

[PaulR]

A consideration for me at least, materials should be inexpensive and readily available. I once suggested a competition with the only requirements being the engine must be made from only plumbing pipe or fittings and nails and bolts. This kind of thing fosters creativity, a wide range of expression, makes it generally accessible to different levels of skill, creates a fun atmosphere, and keeps cost within reason. The second part of that was judging was by all registered users in the form of a poll, so no onus fell upon any particular judge or set of preferences.

I think it worked out well, and it could be done again here, if desired, or something similar.

Yep, this is the sort of thing I was thinking of. Or maybe any materials but hand tools only (gasp!  )

Hand tools only...        Okay, starting that 2" cylinder bore with a hand drill, a 1/4" bit, and a file...   
 

you know you want to 

[vtsteam]

Heh, that would level the playing field!

Actually the only power tool I used to build my first lathe (a Gingery) was a small old wonky pillar drill. All the rest was hand tools, up to the point it could turn stuff itself. It was about half dozen years after that before I owned a mill. It's kind of cool to read the old model engineering books and see what they were capable of without much more than a lathe with faceplate, and files and scrapers. They used a lot of wood for fixturing, and built some amazing engines.

[PaulR]

Heh, that would level the playing field!

Actually the only power tool I used to build my first lathe (a Gingery) was a small old wonky pillar drill. All the rest was hand tools, up to the point it could turn stuff itself. It was about half dozen years after that before I owned a mill. It's kind of cool to read the old model engineering books and see what they were capable of without much more than a lathe with faceplate, and files and scrapers. They used a lot of wood for fixturing, and built some amazing engines.

That's a nice compact machine!

[bent]

As I will be officially retired as of 01 Jan 2026, yes I might be tempted to add a MEMS Challenge engine build project to my pile of other projects...

[Vixen]

Maryak     that would be nice, Bob would like that.
Gets my vote
Mike

[crueby]

Maryak??   

[Jo]

He (Bob) designed the original MEM model engine 

Jo

[crueby]

He (Bob) designed the original MEM model engine 

Jo

Ah!  Thanks!

[Art K]

This is sounding way to complicated. Most of the thoughts so far exclude me. I do have a manual lathe but CNC mill. I'm not creative enough to make something out of nails, screws and pipe. I do though have castings for a 1/6 scale Galloway and a Speed King steam engine. It would push me to have it done in a year. I'd be happy to be a judge though.
Art

[Niels Abildgaard]

Hot air fans once ran a competion on fuel efficiency
For IC engines ,rules could be :
How little fuel to make 250 Wh over 15 minutes where power level shall be within 1000 W plus minus 100W.
No batteries ,supercondensors etc allowed.
My first try will be a 26mm bore 40mm stroke two stroke with 6000 rpm.Load can be a calibrated Eiffel test bar.

[Jasonb]

That really is overcomplicating things, just as well it will be for air engines.

If a test were part of the challenge then it would need to be simple such as a bit of string and a token weight on the end. If people have to start making brake testers etc. then you will just loose a lot of entries. I think most people here make models for the enjoyment and are happy if they simply run which can be enough of a challenge in itself.

[AdeV]

Agreed - I did think, in my head, we could have a power test - but you're right Jason and Art - I think for a challenge, especially one that new builders, or those with minimal equipment, can take part in, that's probably going to take it too far.

If we do get enough interest to have categories, though, I'm sure we could have a category that includes more complexity; for those who want to challenge themselves as well... But it's still early days yet.

Do please keep the ideas coming, though - right now, there are no bad ideas! (except maybe making the challenge engine a 1/10th scale 2025 F1 power unit!!)

[Minh Thanh]

Hi !
 Some thoughts:

- How long will it last? Or is it just for the 15th anniversary?

- Is it similar to the HMEM forum? If it is similar to HMEM, then it should be reconsidered.

Even now, I don't know what the competition will be like.

Just a few personal opinions and questions:

- Who will be the judges?

- Are they qualified enough to judge?

- Will they be truly fair to all members?

...and...

And if the above are not satisfactory, it will lead to division among members.

In a vocational training class:

Everyone is trained with the same curriculum, using the same tools and machinery. At the end of a course, there will be a competition. The score will be the result of the learning process and will be graded by teachers with clear grading principles, possibly even approved by the school's professional council...

In a forum: whether a domestic or international forum – a place that brings together people with the same passion and interests, most of whom are not formally trained... and many other things.

So who is that competition for? For those with experience, skills, and modern equipment.....? Or for amateurs? (Certainly not)

...

and...

Personally: I don't care much. For my project, I try my best, doing it as well as possible with the machines and tools I have... the result: the engine runs, and that's the victory and happiness, I'm proud of it, and that's enough.

Sometimes, a forum simply needs to fulfill its intended purpose, maintaining it as a friendly place for everyone – a friendliness that is demonstrated through actions and words, not empty rhetoric. That's all it takes! And you – all the members – are doing a great job of that.
 

[Alyn Foundry]

As I’m neither a fan of steam/air engines or fabrication for that matter I shall pass, however
You could use engine RPM  as the basis for competition? Contactless, laser tachometers are relatively inexpensive these days and a fixed pressure and pipe bore would ensure a level playing field.

Many years ago I got involved with the BBC series ‘ the great egg race ‘ we reached the semis  you had to propel an egg as far as possible using the power obtained from a standardised elastic band.  Just a thought to perhaps challenge the membership’s ingenuity?

   Graham.

[Vixen]

Many years ago I got involved with the BBC series ‘ the great egg race ‘ we reached the semis  you had to propel an egg as far as possible using the power obtained from a standardised elastic band.  Just a thought to perhaps challenge the membership’s ingenuity?

   Graham.

Perhaps the the MEM equivalent of the 'standardised elastic band' could be a 16gram screw-in disposable Co2 cartridge. The challenge would be to find the most ingenious way to make use of it's power.

What does it do? How does it do it? That's for you to decide. That's your Challenge

Mike

[Jasonb]

Well I'm not old enough to have taken up knitting yet so will have a go and that is what I voted for. Maybe a class for embroidered designs could be added

However I am also willing to give up submitting an entry should a set engine design be decided upon and produce some drawings for others to build, be that a whole engine or some part(s) that must be included.

However I think keeping things a lot less formal/restricted and maybe not even a competition is likely to see more members take part. Keep the critera as simple as possible. The suggestions of a maximum displacement or size would be enough maybe total of L+H+W = X.

If it was felt there was even a need for a "winner" then just let the other builders who have entered vote amoung themselves, a video of the engine running would be enough but a builder could also show the engine doing something if they wanted. Speed or pressure limits would mean some member shaving to buy pressure gauges, regulators and tachos and they would probably preffer to put the money towards their own projects.

By the way the votes are going it looks like one criteria will be to provide a build thread as more seem to be voyers than doers

[PaulR]

But I'd like to think that we can come up with something where the taking part is more rewarding than the actual winning... Is that even possible?

Yep, the winner buys all the other entrants a beer 

[vtsteam]

Okay, Ade, no bad ideas, here comes one -- sort of left field.....

Let's suppose a modeler has started building an engine, let's call him/her/them umm "Modeler S."

Now suppose this Modeler S stopped building that engine awhile ago, for one of various reasons only known to Moddler S. Or maybe for no reason apparent to Moddeler S. And Modeler S. has for a time, up to even a period of years since thought, "Gee I really ought to finish that." But no, the desire has never returned strong enough to make that actually happen.

Then suppose a forum devoted to engine models ran a forum sort of "contest" which required all participants to complete a past unfinished project by a certain date. The progress of each of these models was maintained not in a heavy level competitive spirit, but more along the lines of encouraging each other to make it across the finish line with a completed formerly procrastinated model by the drop dead deadline. Could the enthusiasm of a group toward a common level of success, perhaps spiced with some friendly cajoling when absolutely necessary do the trick? Could each member have their name engraved on the perennial "I Did It.....Finally" trophy?

Modeler S asked if there were any requirements for things like CNC vs Manual vs Castings vs Commercial kit vs Bar Stock, and the answer from the powers that be was, "Nope!" or perhaps words to that effect like, "Just finish the damn thing  ."

Modeler S then considered whether his/her/their level of experience in modeling engines was competitive with some of the superb builders he/she/they saw around him/her/them, but quickly realized that they would probably have taken on a more crippling level of detail and machining skill by comparison, and would have a naturally more difficult time finishing.

Hmmmmm, thought Modeler S.... but do I really want to finish that thing......

[Dave Otto]

Okay, Ade, no bad ideas, here comes one -- sort of left field.....

Let's suppose a modeler has started building an engine, let's call him/her/them umm "Modeler S."

Now suppose this Modeler S stopped building that engine awhile ago, for one of various reasons only known to Moddler S. Or maybe for no reason apparent to Moddeler S. And Modeler S. has for a time, up to even a period of years since thought, "Gee I really ought to finish that." But no, the desire has never returned strong enough to make that actually happen.

Then suppose a forum devoted to engine models ran a forum sort of "contest" which required all participants to complete a past unfinished project by a certain date. The progress of each of these models was maintained not in a heavy level competitive spirit, but more along the lines of encouraging each other to make it across the finish line with a completed formerly procrastinated model by the drop dead deadline. Could the enthusiasm of a group toward a common level of success, perhaps spiced with some friendly cajoling when absolutely necessary do the trick? Could each member have their name engraved on the perennial "I Did It.....Finally" trophy?

Modeler S asked if there were any requirements for things like CNC vs Manual vs Castings vs Commercial kit vs Bar Stock, and the answer from the powers that be was, "Nope!" or perhaps words to that effect like, "Just finish the damn thing  ."

Modeler S then considered whether his/her/their level of experience in modeling engines was competitive with some of the superb builders he/she/they saw around him/her/them, but quickly realized that they would probably have taken on a more crippling level of detail and machining skill by comparison, and would have a naturally more difficult time finishing.

Hmmmmm, thought Modeler S.... but do I really want to finish that thing......

That's funny, I could have multiple entries in that contest. I would be hard to choose which one to enter. 

Dave

[crueby]

But I'd like to think that we can come up with something where the taking part is more rewarding than the actual winning... Is that even possible?

Yep, the winner buys all the other entrants a beer 

Have to phrase that carefully, or the winner buys one beer for all the other entrants to share!   

[AdeV]

Even now, I don't know what the competition will be like.

No, me neither! Hence this thread & poll...

Just a few personal opinions and questions:

- Who will be the judges?

- Are they qualified enough to judge?

- Will they be truly fair to all members?

...and...

And if the above are not satisfactory, it will lead to division among members.

Again, right now - I don't know who the judges will be, or if there even will be one, or whether it's just a bit of fun. I'd be happy to do any judging - but am I qualified? I guess that depends on what the criteria is.

Personally: I don't care much. For my project, I try my best, doing it as well as possible with the machines and tools I have... the result: the engine runs, and that's the victory and happiness, I'm proud of it, and that's enough.

Sometimes, a forum simply needs to fulfill its intended purpose, maintaining it as a friendly place for everyone – a friendliness that is demonstrated through actions and words, not empty rhetoric. That's all it takes! And you – all the members – are doing a great job of that.
 

Totally get that - and please don't feel like this is some kind of mandatory thing.

Let me tell you where the inspiration for this came from: I've been working on some model railway stuff recently, partnering with a chap who's a member of the Scale Four Society (many rivet counters amongst their membership!). They came up with "The Scale Four Challenge" - build a model railway in 4mm scale, can be anything from real life, or fictional, the only criteria were that:
- the scenic section had to fit on a base no larger than 18.83 square feet
- it had to be in P4/S87 gauge
- It had to cost no more than what two people could reasonably afford.

They had an earlier challenge with similar rules, although IIRC that one had to be transportable (In one go) in a typical British hatchback car (so none of your American F150 duallies!).

I'd like the MEM challenge - if it happens - to be along the same lines: A short list of sensible criteria, which can realistically be achieved by anyone willing to put in the time and effort. The reward would, at the very least, be an engine one can proudly state one has built oneself; and maybe there could be some actual prizes... never say never.

Such a thing will never please everyone, or be attractive to everyone, and I get that: So any prize will be suitably token in size such that no-one need feel obligated to take part, if they don't want to. It's just a bit of fun, is all.

Here's an idea for first prize: For the 12 months after the conclusion of the challenge, we'll display a picture of your engine & a link to your build log, at the top of every MEM page...

[Minh Thanh]

In any competition, there are always winners and losers.

But the important thing is: will the losers and  project supporters accept the result? And if they don't accept it, there will certainly be division among the members.

Personal opinion: For the 15th anniversary, why not honor the projects? Select projects that are presented meticulously, and designate those members' projects as "inspiring projects" (or similar).

That's how we, the forum, thank the members who have contributed wonderful projects to the forum.

Of course, there must be mandatory requirements, but at least the images from those projects must remain with the forum. We can't have a project win an award and then all the images disappear a few years later.

[AVTUR]

Why only one option?

AVTUR

[crueby]

Another possibility, instead of an engine how about a flyball governor? Should be a quicker build than a full engine, design one that is large enough to put a hand crank on to drive it but small enough for small bar stock and smaller lathe/mill.
Just an idea. There are lots of styles of them, we could do a single design or let everyone pick their favorite.
 

[Captain Jerry]

Competition brings division. I want MEM to be here when my new shop is finished with all members participating.