In the year 2027... [MEM competition/challenge - should we have one?]

[AdeV]

(title to be imagined to the tune of "In the year 2525" by Zager and Evans)

In July 2027, Model Engine Maker will - almost unbelievably - be 15 years old. 15! And yet, it only feels like yesterday... Oh, yesterday (damnit, stop quoting old songs!)

Anyway - this got me to thinking....

How does the membership feel about having a "challenge build"? i.e. some kind of set of rules by which to build a small engine, with various judging criteria, the winner to get, I dunno, life membership? :lol:

Whether you are, or are not, interested in such a thing - either as a participant, as a spectactor, or even if you fancy being a judge, part of the jury, or the executioner - er, I mean the prize giver - please vote above so I can gauge the level of interest.

The actual rules of the competition will be thrashed out if there seems to be interest in such a thing; but I'm thinking something along the lines of:
- Must be made on manual machines (no CNC) - or maybe categories, if there's sufficient interest
- Must be a compressed air engine (no IC engines or flame lickers) - to keep the complexity down (again, maybe categories, if it seems like a popular idea)
- Any number of cylinders
- A way of connecting it to a load (I think some kind of power test would be part of the judging)

Dunno, those are just some random thoughts. What do you think? Feel free to add ideas & suggestions below!

[Jasonb]

Although I can appreciate the manual machines only rule should the playing field also be leveled up by saying all entries must be scratch built as it would make life easier if say bought in cylinder and flywheel castings were used, infact easier than cutting the same items on a CNC.

As for a load test, that could handicap those with small machines and budgets as a big engine should produce more power than something small also those with a small compressor are not going to be able to produce such high pressures and revs.

[crueby]

Although I can appreciate the manual machines only rule should the playing field also be leveled up by saying all entries must be scratch built as it would make life easier if say bought in cylinder and flywheel castings were used, infact easier than cutting the same items on a CNC.

As for a load test, that could handicap those with small machines and budgets as a big engine should produce more power than something small also those with a small compressor are not going to be able to produce such high pressures and revs.

So that would be bar stock built, no castings? I'd like that, since that is how I build anyway!   

What about a one-design engine, everyone building the same thing? Or let everyone design their own?

[vtsteam]

I like it!

I vote for castings being okay, with the proviso that if you are going to use them, you would have to design and make your own, and you would have to do it for the contest, not just cast some pattern you already had, and you would have to show your process. You could also use plumbing fittings -- some of which were cast (my avatar engine is made completely from plumbing fittings)

I think the max displacement should be set, if you are going to give some consideration to power produced. Could be multi-cylinder, but must adhere to the disp. max.

[Mike R]

Well, I may be able to submit a model started in 2017 as it may actually be completed by 2027 or maybe not...
As for CNC, its merits / advantages over manual in building a one-off example are not huge and should not in my opinion rule out eligibility (I don't have a  manual mill) - I can scrap just as much or more as the manual guys!

[vtsteam]

Hoping that the project would need to start during the contest period.

[Jasonb]

Yes, I think there should be a set period from when the final critera are announced to completion so everyone has the same time to design and build not just finish off something they have already done work on be that just design or some building.

The problem with setting any criteria is that you either need narrow it down to make things equal  which risks excluding some possible participants, we have already seen that one ha sdone away with their manual mill. Or you make it mor eflexible or different classes which either make it hard to judge an engine built with just a lathe and pencil sketches against one made with CNC, 3D printing and CAD. The problem with different catagories is you need a good number of people in each to make it feel like they have won which does not work if there is only one entry in their class. And like team builds you will get those who are keen at this stage but drop out along the way so final numbers of entries is likely to be smaller than those voting for the first option.

A set engine design is another possible but ideally needs to be new so all making for the first time, size needs to fit all workshops and budgets although I suppose if designed so it could be done from barstock then it could be scaled up or down and would also need to take into account those building in metric as well as imperial. Other constraints could be a max size cube the engine will fit into. one or two set parts which frees up the rest of the design, etc

Don't have a problem if someone wanted to cast any of the parts rather than use barstock, my comment was more to counter the belief that CNC is the easy way. I did say "bought in" castings

[Jasonb]

Then it comes to who will judge the entries?

Certainly some here who seem anti CNC so would there be equal judging if it were allowed? Similar with castings there are those that don't like fabrication or cutting from solid.

Would having the entrants as the judges be an option each having a vote for what they feel was the winner from the selection of completed entries, obviously not able to vote for their own entry.

[AVTUR]

Nice idea. It's rather like the Irish 24 hours "Le Mans" race for Citroen 2CVs, great fun until someone became serious and wanted to win. Mind you, those sort of entries are the most interesting because of innovation and bending of the rules. Therefore careful thinking is needed about the model with a few simple rules, say a beam engine with double acting single cylinder 20mm x 20mm bore and stroke, no reversing gear. Don't worry about the use of CNC machining or castings.

As for competing, I would certainly do a design in cold or very hot weather. Whether I would use precious workshop time on an entry is another question. I am more likely to stand at the side and shake the tambourine.

I will vote on Christmas morning.

AVTUR

[AdeV]

Thank you all for your responses so far! Based on what I see, it might actually have legs, this one...

IMHO there's a couple of important considerations: It has to be possible to do within the time available (and I'm aware that these things can take ages...); and it should be open to as many people with as many skill levels as possible. For me, that's probably going to be the hardest thing for us to get right - how to let someone who's making their first engine compete on as level as possible a playing field as someone who's been making engines for 30 years or more...

WRT CNC, Castings, etc.: Once we've found the level of interest, we can see what to do about such things. IMHO figuring out the judging criteria will probably guide us as to what is/is not applicable.  To pick up on one specific point though, wrt castings; if castings are an option, I think they either have to be commercially available, or maybe we could commission a set ourselves (as MEM) - most people won't have the ability or equipment to make their own from scratch, so whilst those of you who DO possess those skills/equipment would probably love to show them off; I feel that would exclude too many people. But if we can do our own... well... maybe?  As it happens, I still have Rob Wilson's (RIP Rob) casting set up that I bought some years ago... if anyone reading has good casting skills & is willing to wander over to Birkenhead (near Liverpool) to give me a crash course on casting... maybe I could actually make kits myself!

Anyway.... let's see if we get enough interest first... 

[Jasonb]

Just a thought, would a less cryptic title attract more interest. Some people skip by chatterbox topics.

I suppose you nee dto allow for people dropping out for one reason or another, people who loose interest when the final subject and criteria are given and those that may not complete. Could be 50% of what we have at the moment.

[PaulR]

From a novice's perspective:

There's no way I would enter into a 'competition' with other builders who have vastly more skill, experience and equipment, it would be futile and despondency inducing! The many expert builders here will probably have built most of the essential types of engine already and will have various go-to designs in their head. Similarly, those with more sophisticated tools, equipment, design experience, a large stock of materials and lots of free time would have a substantial advantage if there was a time limit.

I think it would be more fun if it was based on novelty and creativity... does anyone want to judge which of half a dozen expertly made engines of the same type is 'the best'?

I'd add in some silliness, for example, build an engine which:

• has cylinders that face in opposite directions but drives a single flywheel
• has one cylinder which is three times the size of the other
• has two or more cylinders operated by different types of valve
• is made entirely from a single material
• doesn't have any threaded components
• is made exclusively from round or tubular stock
• is made from a specified number and size of bars eg four 1"x4" bars, two in brass and two in steel

You get the idea. Possibly not the sort of bonkers thing serious builders would be interested in I guess but it might lead to some fun and interesting engines.

If it does take off, I'd prefer to see different engines rather than them all being small variations of essentially the same engine.

[AdeV]

Just a thought, would a less cryptic title attract more interest. Some people skip by chatterbox topics.

I suppose you nee dto allow for people dropping out for one reason or another, people who loose interest when the final subject and criteria are given and those that may not complete. Could be 50% of what we have at the moment.

Good thinking - I'll put something in Announcements too, also less cryptic... I was in a funny mood last night...

Agree about people dropping out; but ultimately this should be a fun thing, not something onerous - but maybe there will be a bit of a prize at the end of it that people will like... dunno, have to see. Watch this space!

From a novice's perspective:

There's no way I would enter into a 'competition' with other builders who have vastly more skill, experience and equipment, it would be futile and despondency inducing! The many expert builders here will probably have built most of the essential types of engine already and will have various go-to designs in their head. Similarly, those with more sophisticated tools, equipment, design experience, a large stock of materials and lots of free time would have a substantial advantage if there was a time limit.

Yes - I totally get that. However, one can't also exclude the skilled builders by making it focused entirely on novices... Getting the challenge right is also a challenge! And we might not get it right this time either... time (will/may) tell.

I think it would be more fun if it was based on novelty and creativity... does anyone want to judge which of half a dozen expertly made engines of the same type is 'the best'?

...

You get the idea. Possibly not the sort of bonkers thing serious builders would be interested in I guess but it might lead to some fun and interesting engines.

If it does take off, I'd prefer to see different engines rather than them all being small variations of essentially the same engine.

Some great thoughts there, thanks! When/If it comes to be - I'll definitely be looking for ideas like that to build the rules up. And don't worry, it's not just going to be things like "most accurate miniature real engine with the correct number of scale rivets" or stuff like that. IMHO the most important thing is that it's fun to enter, and anyone can do it. The TWO most important things... fun to enter, anyone can do it, and no-one needs to take it seriously THREE (cue Monty Python).

[AdeV]

As a PS... I've been thinking of this more as a challenge than a competition... although there would be some judging & winner(s): But I'd like to think that we can come up with something where the taking part is more rewarding than the actual winning... Is that even possible? I don't know... but here's hoping! 

[Minh Thanh]

 Hi !
 Some thoughts:

- How long will it last? Or is it just for the 15th anniversary?

- Is it similar to the HMEM forum? If it is similar to HMEM, then it should be reconsidered.