hello from London

[London_lighterman]

Hello all.
I thought I would say hello and an idea I have for a project.
My time as a model engineer has produced a few things and a considerable amount of swarf and some perfectly good scrapped bits laying in the box.
Having a local model engineering club allows me to be among likeminded "nutters" but a great source of experience and suggestion.

Attached is an idea for a model, I remember these winches still running on some of the older ships and have fond memories of working "under the hook" as we referred to it in my profession.

My interest is a very broad church be it on wheels, the water of screwed down and going round. I have avoided models the take off turning 100's of hours of work into a kit really doesn't send me!

[crueby]

Welcome to the group! Lots of us likeminded nutters here! 
I have the same catalog that Hyde winch picture is from, lots of great information in there. I also got interested in them after seeing similar ones on a Liberty Ship in Baltimore. It would make a great model!

[Kim]

Hi there!  Welcome to the forum! 

Kim

[Dave Otto]

Welcome to MEM!

Dave

[Casting Iron]

Welcome to the group.

I had an opportunity to purchase a hoist one time.
It was sitting by the side of the road in front of an equipment company.
It was not in particulary good condition, and they wanted $750.00, which was quite a bit of money in the early 70's, so I did not get it.

Very nice choice for a model build, in my opinion.

I found some hoist images in an Audel's book.
I will start a thread an post a few.

.

[Casting Iron]

For a minute there, I thought I was seeing dual piston rods, but it is just two round crosshead guides.

.

[crueby]

The neat thing about the mechanism is that its one eccentric per cylinder, with a spool valve that is switched between inside admission and outside admission to make it go forward and reverse. The center valve controlled by the operator swaps the steam/exhaust and also acts as the throttle. Really neat setup.

[Casting Iron]

I missed the reversing valve completely, but did notice the unusual plumbing.
So does this engine use piston valves? to prevent valve lift when reversing the engine ?

The Soule Speedy Twin is the only D-valved engine I am aware of that uses a reversing valve, and the only way it can do this without valve lifting is to have a check valve built into the D-valve.

The Dake also had a reversing valve like that, but its internal construction prevented any valve lifting, since the valves are part of the inner piston.

.

[crueby]

Yeah, piston valves can be plumbed so the steam comes in either at the center, inside admission, or at the ends, called outside admission. Swapping between the two makes the engine run the opposite way. As you suspected, doing that with a d valve will cause the valve to lift. ThIs hoist engine has the same setup as the first steering engine I built. The same end result can be done with the double level/four port arrangement  that steam shovel slew/crowd engines used, which is how I am making my current steering engine. Its amazing how many different valve arrangements have been invented over the years.


Just looked back at the drawing in the first post, the valve shown there is the control valve that the operator lever moves. Its also a piston valve, lookes a lot like the cylinder valves.

[Jasonb]

Are you hoping to do a scale model or just a winch? Your last comment about spending 100s of hours suggests you just want a basic representation as a scale model that replicated the details shown would entail quite a bit of work.

Also what sort of sizes are you able to accommodate on your machines? if doing a detailed representation then that does become a bit easier if the sale is larger unless you like watch making.

It would make a nice model though.

Chris. I take it that the valve is sectioned along the length of the engine, would I be right in thinking that if sectioned across the engine it would show tow flanges each side so a total of 4 outlets. The top to for outside admission and the lower for inside admission of steam and the pair not feeding steam then carry the exhaust?

[crueby]

Hi Jason,
Nothing that complex, looks very like a D valve setup as for the passages. Here is a cross section of what my steering engine model was:

The green pipes on the right are the two incoming pipes from the control valve - one would get steam, the other takes the exhaust, depending on how the control valve was moved. The yellow dot at the middle of the spool valve indicates holes in the valve spool so the two ends are connected. If the steam comes in the pipe in the center, its 'center admission', and in this diagram the steap would go to the lower end of the cylinder and make the piston move up. If the steam comes in the other pipe, then its 'outside admission' and in the postions in this diagram the steam would go to the top of the cylinder and push the piston down. Thats how it reverses the engine with just the one eccentric. Hope that helps?

[redhouseluv]

Having a local model engineering club allows me to be among likeminded "nutters" but a great source of experience and suggestion.

Greetings from Essex and hope you enjoy the forum. Which model engineering club is it as there's nothing my side of London which I can find?

[Roger B]

Welcome to the Forum   

[Art K]

London,
I assume you are or were a crane operator. Looks like an interesting project. But way over my pay grade, haven't done much steam myself. Welcome to the forum and I think you'll find a bunch of folks who know whats involve in that drawing!
Art

[Jasonb]

Chris I was enquiring about the central valve that alters direction, not the actual piston valve which is no different to others I have made like the recent A J Weed.

It is the valve off to the right of your image that is connected to the green pipes and then mirrored for the other side of the twin engine.

[crueby]

Ah, yes, the central valve is the same type of spool valve. The drawing makes it look like ports on either side, but what they did was have a ring around the spool to maximize the area of the port for best flow. The spool itself has openings through the center to allow flow between the ends just like the spool valve on the cylinders. Here is a marked up diagram of that center control valve:


The red arrow shows the steam inlet, and the blue the exhaust outlet (those can be swapped if need be, makes no difference to the function). The green and pink arrows show the pipes leading to the cylinders. In the cross section on the right side, the red and blue arrows show the inlet/exhaust, and the green and pink dots show where the pipes to the cylinders connect in on the valve body casting - they did not show these in the cross section. I show them over on the side where they drew one side of the ring - they would actually be in the center of the ring. If the valve spool is moved up, the inlet steam would be sent out the pink pipe, and the exhaust connected to the green pipe. If the valve spool is moved down, the steam would go through the center of the spool and connect to the green pipe, and the exhaust connected to the pink pipe.  Does that make sense?

[London_lighterman]

Jason I have warco mill/drill round column, and a warco W250. so I can cope with most things,
I would have to sit down with the dreaded blank sheet of paper and make a start.
I was thinking a bed size of 6", that should give me a drum size of about 2 1/2" cylinders of about 1/2" I will keep folks posted.

Are you hoping to do a scale model or just a winch? Your last comment about spending 100s of hours suggests you just want a basic representation as a scale model that replicated the details shown would entail quite a bit of work.

Also what sort of sizes are you able to accommodate on your machines? if doing a detailed representation then that does become a bit easier if the sale is larger unless you like watch making.

It would make a nice model though.

Chris. I take it that the valve is sectioned along the length of the engine, would I be right in thinking that if sectioned across the engine it would show tow flanges each side so a total of 4 outlets. The top to for outside admission and the lower for inside admission of steam and the pair not feeding steam then carry the exhaust?

[London_lighterman]

Hello.
I am over the other side.
there are some good clubs over your side with some nice folk, joining a club is a real help as its like a good forum chat, ideas and lots of tea

Having a local model engineering club allows me to be among likeminded "nutters" but a great source of experience and suggestion.

Greetings from Essex and hope you enjoy the forum. Which model engineering club is it as there's nothing my side of London which I can find?

[London_lighterman]

Wow, You are answering all the possible questions I had about the direction / reverser valve.
The windlass's (anchor winches) also used the reversing system.
I was lucky to see stevedores working these winches loading and unloading ships. The speed they worked and using arms and legs for the reverser and brake.

the diagram will prove really useful, thank you!

Ah, yes, the central valve is the same type of spool valve. The drawing makes it look like ports on either side, but what they did was have a ring around the spool to maximize the area of the port for best flow. The spool itself has openings through the center to allow flow between the ends just like the spool valve on the cylinders. Here is a marked up diagram of that center control valve:


The red arrow shows the steam inlet, and the blue the exhaust outlet (those can be swapped if need be, makes no difference to the function). The green and pink arrows show the pipes leading to the cylinders. In the cross section on the right side, the red and blue arrows show the inlet/exhaust, and the green and pink dots show where the pipes to the cylinders connect in on the valve body casting - they did not show these in the cross section. I show them over on the side where they drew one side of the ring - they would actually be in the center of the ring. If the valve spool is moved up, the inlet steam would be sent out the pink pipe, and the exhaust connected to the green pipe. If the valve spool is moved down, the steam would go through the center of the spool and connect to the green pipe, and the exhaust connected to the pink pipe.  Does that make sense?

[London_lighterman]

No when I saw these types of winches I was under the hook as we called it either loading from ocean going ships when they used their own gear, ie, winches and derricks. Or being discharged with exports.

The container saw the death of the break bulk ship, the winches where designed to be able to(in the hands of a skilled operator) handle most jobs.
Average lifts were 1-2 tons and the sight of a yo-yo or a jumbo lift they could pick up and SLOWLY swing 5-10 tons between two strengthened derricks was awesome.
 

London,
I assume you are or were a crane operator. Looks like an interesting project. But way over my pay grade, haven't done much steam myself. Welcome to the forum and I think you'll find a bunch of folks who know whats involve in that drawing!
Art