Author Topic: This key isn't music to my eyes.  (Read 1479 times)

Offline PaulR

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 81
This key isn't music to my eyes.
« on: December 13, 2024, 08:23:30 PM »
Picked up the new mini-lathe today but the 3-jaw chuck key seems to be distinctly out of tune (the handle and shaft are way out of perpendicular, worse than it appears in the photo). I've owned two lathes before and neither had a key with this 'feature', looks more like a 'chucker' than a 'keyper' to me... I've asked the supplier for comment, maybe I'm being too fussy for £880? The rest of the machine and the setup look good so pretty pleased overall, mind you I haven't taken a cut yet, still getting the gunk off!






Offline Kim

  • Global Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8614
  • Portland, Oregon, USA
Re: This key isn't music to my eyes.
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2024, 09:00:19 PM »
That certainly does look way out of square!  I think that would bother me too.

Hopefully, the manufacturer will get back to you.  If not, you could modify it or make a new one! :)

Kim

Offline cnr6400

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3346
Re: This key isn't music to my eyes.
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2024, 09:14:34 PM »
I'd suggest putting the central part in a good big vise and apply a 1 lb ballpein hammer to the red handles with some skill and discretion, until they're reasonably square. Life's too short to get stressed about stuff like this, in my opinion.

If you really want to get fancy with the fix, push out the red handle from the centre section, over-drill the centre until the handle rod can lay square, and hit it with a MIG welder or stick welder. If the red handles melt off, so much the better, you don't need them. Job done. Good luck.  :cheers:
"I've cut that stock three times, and it's still too short!"

Offline paul gough

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 543
  • Paul Gough
Re: This key isn't music to my eyes.
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2024, 09:23:58 PM »
This sort of thing seems to be acceptable by many suppliers and consumers nowadays. I looked at every small lathe offering in Australia and decided to pass on them all. To keep my interests going in models I decided to go miniature and imported a Sherline mill and lathe despite the expense. They are not perfect and certainly have limitations, but they are of an acceptable standard of manufacture. All that can be done is to set the lathe up as accurately as you are able and do some test cuts to see if you can achieve the standards of accuracy and finish required, if not, attempt to return the machine for a refund. Many people have these machines and put in time making them acceptable, which is fine, but it does enable the manufactures and suppliers to keep doing the same thing. Hope the disappointment is only temporary.
Regards, Paul Gough.

Offline propforward

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1763
  • MN, USA
    • Stuart's Shednanigans
Re: This key isn't music to my eyes.
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2024, 10:01:37 PM »
While that is highly irritating, you are likely to find a lot worse things with that machine as time goes on - and why I'm done with such equipment having had my own fill of it. I'd apply CNR 6400's fix at this point and start finding out what else you have to fix - which seems to something you have to take joy in to be satisfied with most eastern mini machines. Sorry - just the way it is.
Stuart - "He Meant Well"

https://www.youtube.com/@StuartsShed

Offline Tin Falcon

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 469
  • Down Jersey USA
Re: This key isn't music to my eyes.
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2024, 12:49:50 AM »
Hmm much to ponder....

Machinist are by nature perfectionists.

Craftsmen expect craftsmanship.

You have a lathe and enjoy machining take a breath and make one to your own standards!!

Hey it has a lawyer inspired Idiot proof safety spring !!

That said the vendor supplier may come through with a better one.

Chinese import stuff can be frustrating, but it is relatively cheap and there is often No quality control ,
that is unless you get a quality name brand and then it is no longer cheap as you are paying for the quality control.

I too have suffered similar fate Most suppliers will do there best to make things right. Things will not improve if reasonable complains are not filed, but sometimes it is easier to fix or correct the error ones self.

Don't sweat the petty stuff.
.

Offline Jasonb

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10029
  • Surrey, UK
Re: This key isn't music to my eyes.
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2024, 07:08:54 AM »
On the other hand my workshop is all far eastern machines and they have had no more than usual adjustment when set up and the models coming off them are as good as I could make on other more expensive machines. They are built to a price and you can't expect the same quality build and finish for a fraction of the cost. Go look at the cost of a name brand chuck key and it is 1/10th the cost of this whole lathe!

Look down my playlist and see for yourself what these machines can do.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLzm1mS9LyjyIjTMgRVJXfOuN7fG9ydS4f

As per the first answer bend it true and get on with making things. Also ditch the spring.

Offline PaulR

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 81
Re: This key isn't music to my eyes.
« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2024, 07:59:57 AM »
I visited a carpet-making workshop in Egypt once. All the workers were kids and most of them had a squint caused by long hours of intense close work. I think one of them must have moved to China and gone into factory work.  :lolb:

This will be my third oriental offering and minor issues like this don't bother me one jot - a short interview with Mr Hammer will sort it. I thought the supplier might like to see it though. And yes, that spring will surely be bounced!

I've used the previous machines to make a dozen or more engines without any real problems although they're all simple and small machines (piston sizes ~4mm to 10mm) which is what I intend to carry on doing. Spent last night deburring and cleaning the various accessories that came with it (the faceplate clamps were the least finger-friendly items I've ever picked up!), today I hope to continue cleaning and setting up the machine itself.

I know these machines from the east divide opinion and it's great if you've got wads of cash and acres of space to buy whatever you fancy but I don't. So, it's something like this or a secondhand machine which could come with all manner of problems undetectable to a relative novice like me - at least this one offers me some come back if things go wrong and availability of spares if I break something!



Offline paul gough

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 543
  • Paul Gough
Re: This key isn't music to my eyes.
« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2024, 08:05:00 AM »
I think it important to be a bit more precise than just referencing far eastern machines. The major complaint is with the smaller lathes, these  being seen and classified as cheap, minimal attention to design, manufacture, assembly, finish etc. The larger the machines generally the more likely it will be of an acceptable standard and providing acceptable results because of its larger mass, greater surface areas, etc.  etc. relative to cutting loads. To make viable small machines, tolerances, design, materials and quality assurance need to be better. Focussing on cheapness is a misguided approach in engineering and usually produces inferior results. Very few people desire or need Schaublin quality for pursuing our activities, but there needs to be some movement forward in quality of basic product in these Chinese machines. This has not been very evident in the small lathes on offer despite their popularity. One of the manufactures has recently stuck digital screens etc on their small machines and calls them ‘Premium’ when the machine is essentially the same, no better. By way of example, my friend tried to make some small brass bushes for his gauge 1 Aster locomotive on his sieg and optimum machines and failed because neither could hold tolerance or produce the requisite finish. He is a Fitter and turner of sixty years experience. He is reasonably satisfied with the larger Chinese machines from the manufacturers mentioned above but his experience with machines of c4 and smaller does not engender praise. It is my observation that the smaller the worse they become, as supplied. So if good results are requisite then significant work needs to be done to these “cheap” machines. They cannot be thought of as Myfords, Emco’s or The US equivalents from times ago. Trust this rave helps to clarify things a bit especially for people contemplating machine purchases.
Regards, Paul Gough.

Offline Tin Falcon

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 469
  • Down Jersey USA
Re: This key isn't music to my eyes.
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2024, 12:27:22 PM »
The mini mill and mini lathe imports are often classified as pre assembled kits do to the affordable price lack of fit and finish and numerous modifications needed to make them really usable.

The army had another way of remining young apprentices not to leave a chuck key in the machine.
Get caught you had to wear a large like two foot long chuck key on as leather strap around your neck for the rest of the shift. You knew who the last guy to get caught was.

Do not worry about your choice your time your dime

Offline propforward

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1763
  • MN, USA
    • Stuart's Shednanigans
Re: This key isn't music to my eyes.
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2024, 01:17:11 PM »
It's a hit and miss affair with the Chinese machines. For sure some work out well and some need lots of fixing. All of them are capable of making nice engines - that's not really the issue. Some can do it out of the gate, some can't and need adjusting, and it's difficult to know what you're going to get. My first Chinese lathe - actually a 12" lathe so not a mini, but not huge - had all manner of embedded problems. I still made decent engines with it but that doesn't mean it was a good lathe - it really wasn't (isn't). It was a t least straight, and if the machine is straight then you can fix everything else if you want to. My second lathe was awesome out of the box but was a very different up scaled affair. Happens to be Taiwanese in origin but it's not really the country of manufacture that is the big deciding point - it is more about which factory (ies) it comes from. I don't think it is just case of size and mass also - I know of owners with large machines that have woes - just as I know of owners with small machines that are tight, true and a joy from day 1.

So - for sure every opinion on the smaller eastern machines is true. They are excellent and they are also terrible - and whichever opinion you get tends to be based on the machine that the owner in question has. If they got lucky then all Chinese import machines are great. If they got unlucky then all Chinese machines are rubbish.

I got a rubbish lathe and a good column mill. So I suppose that makes me a 50% er.

Like Tin Falcon says it is your time your dime - no wrong decision just pays to be aware -  but given what CAN be wrong on a machine, if your troubles are only a bent chuck key then you're doing alright.

EDIT: A common ploy among youtuber makers is to do a "truth about import machines" in which they spew whatever opinion they feel like. It doesn't really matter what their opinion is or even what they say - it's a subject that draws ire and angst so they up their view count in an instant. It's just one of those subjects, I suppose.

The key is to find the best importer, I think - one that has quality control in mind and screens out most of the rubbish machines. I'm pretty sure the Chinese factories simply divert different machines to their different vendors based on how the machines happen to end up, rather than ensuring a level of quality throughout the manufacturing process. I'm not 100% on that.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2024, 02:00:01 PM by propforward »
Stuart - "He Meant Well"

https://www.youtube.com/@StuartsShed

Offline PaulR

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 81
Re: This key isn't music to my eyes.
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2024, 01:24:55 PM »
The mini mill and mini lathe imports are often classified as pre assembled kits do to the affordable price lack of fit and finish and numerous modifications needed to make them really usable.

The army had another way of remining young apprentices not to leave a chuck key in the machine.
Get caught you had to wear a large like two foot long chuck key on as leather strap around your neck for the rest of the shift. You knew who the last guy to get caught was.

Do not worry about your choice your time your dime

I wondered what that was dangling down there  :o

This one has a chuck guard so the lathe can't be started while it's up and it can't be put down with the key in situ. If they think that's going to stop me creating mayhem they'll have to try harder!


Offline uuu

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 171
Re: This key isn't music to my eyes.
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2024, 01:43:26 PM »
If you can bend the handle straight it's less likely to slide out of the main part.  :)

We have a lathe at the club that was gifted by a member.  He'd got himself an old Myford, which was not as big, not as rigid and seemed to have no benefits over the newer one.  But it was just nicer to use.

I've rewired the imported one - why do electrician's lathes always have dangerous wiring?  And it does the job.

Wilf

Offline propforward

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1763
  • MN, USA
    • Stuart's Shednanigans
Re: This key isn't music to my eyes.
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2024, 02:01:32 PM »

I've rewired the imported one - why do electrician's lathes always have dangerous wiring?  And it does the job.

Wilf

Right?!! Similarly why is it when you buy a used machine tool from a machine shop that it has the WORST home made components and fixes on it?  :ShakeHead:
Stuart - "He Meant Well"

https://www.youtube.com/@StuartsShed

Offline PaulR

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 81
Re: This key isn't music to my eyes.
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2024, 03:02:29 PM »

We have a lathe at the club that was gifted by a member.  He'd got himself an old Myford, which was not as big, not as rigid and seemed to have no benefits over the newer one.  But it was just nicer to use.

Wilf
My second lathe was an ML10. It was pretty solid and nice to use but I found mucking about with the drive belt and the lack of variable speed control didn't suit the habits I'd got into. I've also used a much bigger Boxford (I think it was) but although both were heavier machines and no doubt capable of greater accuracy in the right hands, neither seemed to feel 'right' for the tiddly little engines I was making.

 

SimplePortal 2.3.5 © 2008-2012, SimplePortal