Author Topic: Elegent Scroll Frame Skeleton Clock  (Read 103470 times)

Offline RReid

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Re: Elegent Scroll Frame Skeleton Clock
« Reply #555 on: September 16, 2025, 02:59:54 PM »
Outstanding work all around, Kim. Congratulations!!

Save a few of those chips for posterity. I have some 40+ year old, pretty blue steel chips under the bottom drawer of my Kennedy box that landed there in my early working days, never have cleaned them out. They are just a reminders.
Regards,
Ron

Online Kim

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Re: Elegent Scroll Frame Skeleton Clock
« Reply #556 on: September 16, 2025, 06:21:03 PM »
Thanks everyone!  :cheers:

Wilf, I think you'd enjoy building a clock.  Some of the issues I'm experiencing are from using stainless steel rather than brass.  And the balance are just my lack of knowledge and experience in machining and frankly, my own basic ineptitude. :embarassed:   You wouldn't have those issues!

But I'm getting better and learning all the time! What could be more fun, right? :)

I would be interested to learn how you rate the experience of building this clock relative to the little Kozo.

I think the biggest difference is that Kozo gives you such good, clear information on how to do things; how to hold a part, the recommended order of operations, advice on how to do this or that.  Just wonderful, detailed instructions and clear pictures.  Not that I always did things the way he said, but much of the time I did. And having his detailed instructions was incredibly helpful.

While John Wilding gives lots of information, I don't find it as clearly presented, nor as helpful or complete as Kozo.  I'm doing much of it on my own. And I've had to figure out so many things that John just doesn't seem to include.

That said, I'm still quite enjoying the clock build. It is something I've always wanted to do, and I'm happy to just chug along, building and learning.  In that, the two projects are the same!  ;D

Kim

Offline bent

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Re: Elegent Scroll Frame Skeleton Clock
« Reply #557 on: September 16, 2025, 07:12:55 PM »
Wow, nice results Kim!  Glad your persistence paid off.  The ideas you posted about cut relief and direction of cutting made sense too, so well learned we have become.  I could only add one possibility - the idea of reinforcing the "first tooth" with a bit of solder fill or a spotwelded tab if needed, to reinforce that tooth on the final cutter pass.  But that would be tricky to remove cleanly, so glad it's not needed.

 :popcorn: :ThumbsUp: :DrinkPint:

Online crueby

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Re: Elegent Scroll Frame Skeleton Clock
« Reply #558 on: September 16, 2025, 07:13:56 PM »
I would agree with the comparison between Wilding and Kozo, but its not just Wilding - I've followed books from other clockmakers on the ones I've built, and they all seem about the same, they jump around a lot, assume you already know a lot, and leave out steps that they would probably consider second nature to a clockmaker. Still, a lot of fun and very rewarding, they just require more digging for the beginner clockmaker. And also that making parts from steel OR aluminum is a lot different than the C353 (or equivalent) type of brass, which is made for that sort of sheet/plate work, it gives nice crisp edges and is very rigid.

Watching along with great interest on this build of a torsion-powered temporal engine!   :popcorn: :popcorn:

Online Kim

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Re: Elegent Scroll Frame Skeleton Clock
« Reply #559 on: September 21, 2025, 02:00:36 AM »
For the past many days, I’ve been working on crossing out the Great Wheel.  Of course, I start with the hardest one!  It has 8 tapered spokes, plus lots of little doodads in amongst its spokes, making it a nice, challenging place to start.  One of the issues is the bottom spoke (as shown in this picture anyway), where the spoke stops and then opens into a curved window.  This window allows a pin from the maintaining ratchet to pass through.  We’ll talk more about that later. But for now, I just need to make that window.  Additionally, there’s an attachment point for a different pin on the right spoke, which is another spoke anomaly.


I usually just do some trig and figure out the location for each corner of the spoke, calculate the x-y coordinates for each one, then drill the holes on the mill using the DRO.  But this often leads to some little errors when trying to connect the dots on the rotary table.

So this time, I decided to figure out how to drill the holes on the rotary table for one spoke, then rotate to the next spoke and do the same.  This seemed like it might minimize the x-y to polar coordinate mismatch issue I’ve had in the past.

To this end, I created a spreadsheet that lets me enter the number of spokes I want, the inner rim diameter, the outer hub diameter, the width of the spokes at the top and bottom, PLUS the diameter of end mill I’ll be using to mill out the spokes. With this input, it calculates the angle to set the RT for each spoke side, and the X and Y coordinates for the top and bottom holes. What could be better, right?

Spreadsheets are wonderful things.  They do exactly what you tell them to.  Unfortunately, I calculated all my angles backward (sign error) so the left side spoke became the right side, and the spokes were all numbered backwards!  No problem.  That’s what Sharpies are for, right?  So I renumbered the spokes and moved some of the ‘special features’ around to adjust for my oversight.

The spreadsheet in the middle is for the main 8 spokes, with the two anomalous spokes having yellow highlights so that I (hopefully) notice that they are different.  Some of them are now crossed out and moved to a different spoke due to my inverted angle issue.
The spreadsheet on the right is for the little bits of spokeage that connect that middle bottom spoke with the window to the hub (see the above picture).  I calculated the locations of those as if they were just straight spokes (which they are) but just short.  And I will only use two of them (but not two consecutive ones  :o).  If anyone’s actually interested, I’d be happy to explain further. But I’m sure others would figure this in a different way.  That just happens to be how I did it.


I blued up one side of the great wheel and centered it on the rotary table.  Then I proceeded to use the info in my spreadsheets to layout the spoke locations.  While not a strictly necessary step, this gave me a LOT more confidence in my numbers. And, it is also what helped me discover my angle math error.  So I’m super glad I took the time to do this step!  ;D


Next, I went around spotting and drilling 1/8" holes at each corner of each spoke, or spoke ‘feature’ (adjust the angle of the RT, spot two holes, drill two holes, etc.)  At one point, I had the bright idea to just use the center cutting end mill to make the holes, thinking it would save me a tool change (having to spot, then drill).  However, this did not go so well.  You can pick out a couple of holes that look over diameter.  Those are the ones I tried just using the mill.  I think the issue was that I had to have the end mill sticking so far out of the chuck (to reach past the hold-downs) that it would flex some, especially when starting the hole.  This wasn’t good, so I quickly went back to using a twist drill.
I also started to cut the spokes out with the end mill, but then remembered that my official order of operations was to 1) make the holes, 2) pan out the recess in the wheel, then to finally cut the spokes.  I liked this order of operations because I would only have to cut spokes that were half as thick, which seemed like a significant plus.


It was at this point that my stomach dropped…  Because I realized that in all my angle sign changing and spoke re-arranging, I’d ended up getting the special features of the spokes 180 degrees out of phase! Oops! (Just a sign error, right?)   I did not relish the idea of starting the whole gear over yet again (remember, it took me FOUR times to get this one made!)  You’d think I could just flip it over, but the gear is NOT symmetrical. It has the recess on one side, then the two anomalous features are 90 degrees apart.  :hammerbash:

After some pondering, I came up with a (hopefully) cunning plan that would allow me to potentially save all the work I’d done so far.  I was already committed to the locations of each special spoke.  But I had NOT committed which side of the gear was front or back, so I actually COULD flip it over, if I changed my order of operations.  My original plan was to drill the corners, pan out the recess first, then cut the spokes - all in one setup.  But if I were willing to risk another setup and recess the OTHER side, then all the spoke features on the wheel would be in the correct place.

To minimize the number of re-registration steps on the wheel, I decided to cut the spokes on this side now, as it is currently positioned.  That should keep the spokes aligned well with the holes I just drilled.  My only issue would be when turning it over to pan out the recess, I will likely get a bit of a disconnect between the recessed inner rim and the inner rim cut on the spoke side.  I’d hoped to avoid that with my original plan, but decided that a little bit of fettling work would be a small price to pay for not scraping the part.

The wheel is 3/16” wide.  The recess will be 3/32” deep, so the spokes only need to be cut 3/32”.  So, I started cutting the spokes 3/32” deep on this side.  I started with the outer diameter, taking special care around that anomalous spoke with the wide window in it (top of the picture here).


Then I did the bottom of the spokes around the hub, and the lower part of the window portion of that split windowed spoke.


Then I cut all the left and right sides of the spokes, including the sides of the spoke with the window.  I took each cut very carefully, double-checking the location and end points of THAT spoke in particular.  I really didn’t want to screw things up!


With all the spokes outlined, I needed to make the ‘round’ gizmo around the spoke with the pin.  To do this, I moved the gear so that the pin hole was centered on the RT.  Originally, this would have been my last step, after panning out the recess and cutting the spokes.  But in my new, somewhat less ideal order of ops, I’m doing it now, before flipping it over to cut the recess.


And here you go, the round thingy is cut. One of the oversized holes is right there. It looks really bad  :o, and it’s not ideal, but I don’t think it’s QUITE as bad as this pic makes it look.  Guess we’ll see when I go to do the final shaping.


Flipping the part over and recentering it on the RT, I finally panned out the 3/32” recess in the wheel.  I did this with a 3/8” end mill, and it actually went quite well.  There’s a little discontinuity around the rim, which I knew there would be. But I think it is recoverable.  (I hope!)


Here’s the great wheel, still unfettled, but showing that through all my machinations, I did end up getting the features all cut as designed.  There is a little extra pip on the bottom side of the spoke on the right. That is because I somehow didn’t cut that spoke all the way down to 3/32”.  I must have gotten lost in my process because it still had a good 50 thou of metal there. But a file can fix that issue.


I didn’t get around to cleaning up the wheel.  So, we’ll see if it can truly be salvaged.  I’m quite optimistic it can, but we won’t know for sure till I get that job done.  But that’ll be next shop time, probably early next week. We’ll see. Being retired is fun, but I don’t always get as much shop time as you’d think! :)

Thanks for looking in. And if you made it this far, you deserve a gold star!  :cheers:
Kim

Online crueby

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Re: Elegent Scroll Frame Skeleton Clock
« Reply #560 on: September 21, 2025, 02:09:30 AM »
Oh my, that is one complex gear! Reminds me a lot of a locomotive  driving wheel. Lots to preplan and keep track of.


 :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Offline cnr6400

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Re: Elegent Scroll Frame Skeleton Clock
« Reply #561 on: September 21, 2025, 03:56:16 AM »
 :o :o :o  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: Wow Kim! quite a job crossing that wheel out. Great work.  :cheers:
"I've cut that stock three times, and it's still too short!"

Offline RReid

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Re: Elegent Scroll Frame Skeleton Clock
« Reply #562 on: September 21, 2025, 03:01:22 PM »
Nice work and a great save. There are uh-oh moments and OOHH-NOOOO!!! (probably stated even more strongly) moments. That must have been the latter. I do hope your blood pressure is OK now. :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Regards,
Ron

Online Kim

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Re: Elegent Scroll Frame Skeleton Clock
« Reply #563 on: September 21, 2025, 08:58:10 PM »
Thanks Chris, CNR, and Ron!  :cheers:

There are uh-oh moments and OOHH-NOOOO!!! (probably stated even more strongly) moments. That must have been the latter. I do hope your blood pressure is OK now.
Yes, it was certainly the latter!  :Lol: I think my BP finally returned to normal(ish) after I came up with this plan.

Kim

Offline bent

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Re: Elegent Scroll Frame Skeleton Clock
« Reply #564 on: September 23, 2025, 07:02:37 PM »
I saw your oops, and thought, no you can flip it and still make it work...though you then explained why it might not...but I think you ended up ok, so nice work!

I do wonder why the designer didn't leave the cutter radii as fillets at the ends of the spokes, I think that looks better than the square corners.  But maybe not in a finished piece, or there may be other interference issues I'm not aware of?

 :cheers:

Online crueby

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Re: Elegent Scroll Frame Skeleton Clock
« Reply #565 on: September 23, 2025, 08:00:13 PM »
I saw your oops, and thought, no you can flip it and still make it work...though you then explained why it might not...but I think you ended up ok, so nice work!

I do wonder why the designer didn't leave the cutter radii as fillets at the ends of the spokes, I think that looks better than the square corners.  But maybe not in a finished piece, or there may be other interference issues I'm not aware of?

 :cheers:
I think its more the tradition from when those designs were done, spokes were usually cut with a jewelers saw or equivalent,  then hand filed to final dimensions.

Online Kim

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Re: Elegent Scroll Frame Skeleton Clock
« Reply #566 on: September 24, 2025, 12:11:35 AM »
I had originally thought I'd leave the corners with the rounded fillets, but it turns out that is MUCH harder to do than I thought.  That is, if you are going to do any file clean-up, which I desperately needed to do!  So, I ended up filing somewhat more square than before.  At least, less than the 1/16" radius that they had after milling.

I wasn’t going to post an update today, but since this came up, I decided to go ahead.  It’s not much of an update, but you can see the slightly less rounded corners I put in while filing.  Ugh... looking at this closeup, it seems I need to do more work on this wheel!  It's not nearly as good as I had imagined it was.  :embarassed:


And today I just finished the mill part of crossing out the Maintaining Ratchet. Still have the clean-up filing to do.


These two are the most complicated wheels.  The rest are just straight crossing out – no carbuncles or weird anomalies on them.  Just crossed out wheels.  So hopefully, they’ll go much faster (he says optimistically.  :Lol: )

Kim

Offline cnr6400

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Re: Elegent Scroll Frame Skeleton Clock
« Reply #567 on: September 24, 2025, 02:09:26 AM »
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: Hope you have lots of file folders handy, for all that filing you're doing Kim!  :Lol: Should we get you a Staples gift card for Christmas?  :shrug:  :facepalm:
"I've cut that stock three times, and it's still too short!"

Offline Don1966

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Re: Elegent Scroll Frame Skeleton Clock
« Reply #568 on: September 24, 2025, 03:00:26 AM »
Very good achievement Kim,  Persistence is the key to success. Love it ……… :cheers:

Don

Online Kim

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Re: Elegent Scroll Frame Skeleton Clock
« Reply #569 on: September 24, 2025, 05:14:42 AM »
Thanks Jeff and Don!  :cheers:

A Staples gift card would be great. But a bunch of 1/8" end mills might be better!  :Lol:

Kim

 

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