Twin cylinder mill engine, slightly rusty.....

[redhouseluv]

Hello all

I just got this home and was wondering about:

- The make, model and age
- Features which may help ID it, the rounded box bed, the bearing mounts are 'different', has some square headed bolts
- May have had a governor, as there is grooved pulley with inline with a vacant hole which looks like it held something

This moment of madness is going to be a long term project and I was wondering about the best approach.

- The wooden base is rotten so that's for the bin
- It's seized solid, so was thinking of giving it a bath Evapo-Rust (complete immersion?), did consider Electrolysis, heard that's very bad for brass
- Once majority of rust is off then penetrating fluid on all bolts and moving parts

It looks a lot worse than it actually is and I'd like to think, with a lot of TLC, it could be returned to its former glory. Has anyone out there completed a similar project with an engine in a similar state? Any advice (apart from take it to the scrapyard) gratefully received.

Here are lots of pictures

[redhouseluv]

here's a couple more ......

[Jasonb]

I've a couple of photos of that engine look like they were taken in 2012. I don't think we could put a make or maker on it then.

Also a similar style of engine.

You could certainly buy things like cylinder sets, crosshead guides and assorted other parts at the time and arrange them as you wanted, the likes of Stevens's Model Boat Yard did then around 1920

[Michael S.]

A very beautiful steam engine and its design is well over 100 years old.
I have also once taken apart a heavily rusted engine. I would spray all parts and connections several times with WD 40 and let it work for a while. You can then process the parts mechanically with brushes, but this won't completely remove the rust. If you don't want to paint the old engine, that's ok and everything will be well oiled. The piston rod would have to be replaced but you'll see that later.
If you want to treat the engine with paint you definitely have to do more. I used a paint in my restoration (Hammerite). This paint also holds up on rust.
It's all a matter of personal taste.

Michael

[redhouseluv]

I bought this from an elderly gentleman and it belonged to his even older friend who was worried when he wasn’t around it would end up being thrown out. He said it was found in a collapsed work shed in Redhill some time around 2000. Not only do I now feel obliged to, but really need/want to restore it to its former glory.

That's definitely the engine in the 1st picture, what a coincidence!

I wonder about the flat belt pulley on the opposite side to the grooved pulley is that a usual configuration?

So sounds like penetrating fluid first and removal of rust second, I'm in no rush, if its been knocking around for all these years a few more won't hurt

[Jasonb]

That photo was over towards reading so the right sort of area.

The smaller flat belt pully would most likely have been used if you wanted to drive something rather than running the belt off of the flywheel which would have been too slow for a dynamo or similar.

[redhouseluv]

I'd be really interested to see what is going inside of the 'valve box' on in the picture below; I copied the image from the second engine pic above. I imagine some some sort of valve/butterfly arrangement which is connected to the governor and controls the steam to both cylinders?

Is there a special name for that box, how does it work and are there any diagrams of what is inside?

[crueby]

Its called a steam chest, with ports andassages leading to the ends of the cylinders. Each cylinder would have a sliding valve block that allows steam from the chest to go to one end of the cylinder while opening the other end of the cylinder to the exhaust pipe.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slide_valve

[Jasonb]

I don't think there is anything special going on inside that valve chest except double what you would normally find in a single cylinder engine.

I would say that the builder has just made a single chest to keep a more compact design as the space between the two cylinders can be reduced. The two valve rods are all that can be seen entering it.

The long rod that I have arrowed would have been moved by the action of the governor but looks to have been disconnected at some time from a valve that regulated the flow of steam to be replaced by that unsightly hand valve.

[redhouseluv]

Okay got it, its a single unit containing both slide valves for both cylinders.

As I have individual slide valves already on each of the cylinders, if I wanted to put a governor back on the engine, I would need some sort of way of controlling the steam entering the single, jointly shared inlet port; requires some further thinking.......

Anyway, dreaming now, I'll get the rust off and get the thing operational before going down that particular rabbit hole! 

[redhouseluv]

This is going to be a slow burn..........

I bought this last year when I was without a workshop and finally thought I'd give it some attention and see if anything can be done with it.

I was thinking about the following:

1. Electrolysis - I have read this not good for the non-ferrous material like brass/bronze
2. Complete submersion in rust remover - again could have an adverse reaction for non-ferrous material over a long period of time

So.....

I have squirted some penetrating fluid on all the metal to metal contact surfaces, I'll keep doing this over a period of days/weeks and see if anything starts to move. If I can get it apart I can then look at removing the rust from the individual components. I haven't scrubbed anything but after 5 mins the brass bearings around the flywheel are looking shiny 

Any ideas or thoughts gratefully received and at the end of the day it be something which has to remain as is, but for now let's see what can be done ...........

[ShopShoe]

redhouseluv,

Two sources that I know about and watch fairly regularly on YouTube. have both run comparisons between different rust removal methods.

Each one posted more than one video on their experiences, so a Youtube search will get you close.

Tubalcain (in the USA) aka mrpete222, YouTube Search "mrpete222 rust"

Keith Rucker (vintagemachinery.org), YouTube Search "Keith Rucker rust removal"

My take-away from watching all of these videos a while ago is that there are different pros and cons of each method combined with what you want to de-rust. Probably some of these things can be of help to you if you get to the point of taking things apart and working piece-by-piece.

I can add that I have used the "EvapoRust" product in different situations over several years and it does work fairly well for a reasonable cost. Where I live it was also easily available through my neighborhood auto-parts store. Disclaimer: I am not affiliated with them in any way. I just felt the product worked well for MY uses. Last use was in 2023.

I can also say that I have used various "rust stabilizer" paints for non-critical, non-engine objects that I wanted to paint to "pretty them up" for casual display with less danger of re-rusting. I have used these paints alone, and under color coats of rattle-can paints like the "rustoleum" products. Usual disclaimer and Your Mileage May Vary. (I am not mentioning any particular brand because I have used several different ones and I know composition and availability of these types of products is constantly changing.)

As far as disassembly is concerned, Cycling Heat, Then cool, then soak in solution, then heat, etc. can help. Be patient. Start with lower-heating approaches before getting aggressive. My progression is usually through these options: imagine success occasionally but also try to visualize what disasters could occur from being too aggressive.  1. Put in bright sunlight all day, then bring inside.  2. Hair dryer.  3. Heat Gun.  4. Propane torch with "brush" flame, not pencil flame unless you focus one a very small area.  5. Oxyacetalene torch. (You gotta have experience with this tool, in heating, cutting, and welding.)

I have generally used WD-40, but its main function is drying out and protecting metal from rust: There are other products that may provide penetrating action into rusted connection that may work better. I have used "Liquid Wrench" brand. Some prefer kerosene or some individuals have their own "magic brews."  There are also recipes for use with dirty/oxidized brass, etc. that I have heard of, but don't use. Sorry, but I don't have any links handy.

--

Different Subject:  I like the looks of this engine. I think I would like to build something like it. Is there a drawing set out there for something that comes close?

ShopShoe

[redhouseluv]

Hi ShopShoe

I was just writing the update below when you posted. I think others on the forum will be far more knowledgeable about other similar engines, but the one that comes to mind is the Stuart Twin Victoria. In fact I have bought the governor kit for that engine with the hope I can one day fit it to this engine.

I'm using Liquiid Wrench!

-------------------------------------------------------------


Well I am surprised.....I'm using stuff called Liquid Wrench which has a slighlty different 'bouquet' to WD40 and the have managed to get the either ends of both cylinders loosened as well as the piston glands. The valve chest bolts are now loose as well, but leaving them to 'stew' for a little longer. I'm labelling everything as go and looking out for the witness marks......for the future 

I took the rotten wood off as this gives me more access for squirting the good stuff into difficult places. So far so good, no broken bolts, but am calling it a day while the going is good and we'll see as there are some places which look like they may need a lot of attention.

As stated at the beginning, I have no idea what make this engine is, but am starting to see some really great quality components

[Jasonb]

A lot will depend on how restored you want it too look.

Most chemical rust removal will take away the rust and leave the steel/iron so any surfaces that have become pitted will just have bright pits rather than ones filled with iron oxide and may not look that good.

If you want to get it back to "as new" then you are going to have to think about light remachining of surfaces to remove the pits together with draw filing and abrasives to return the bright metal to it's original condition. The cast surfaces like the bed plate, cylinders and flywheel spokes can be cleaned up with wire brushes (protect machined surfaces" to remove the rust and then a few coats of high build filler primer and rubbing down between coats will get you back to a surface that can be painted.

[Jasonb]

As for plans for something similar there are very few twin horizontals about. The  above mentioned Twin Victoria would need a lot of alteration to get close to this style of engine as it is based on a taller cast bed.

You will probably have to find a single that you like the look of and mirror it's major components like cylinder and trunk guides. Crankshaft bearings will only need one on each side and the shaft itself altered to take the two rods at 90deg to each other.

As an example this is one I designed based on a general arrangement that was in one of the very first editions of Model Engineer magazine. I have done a quick mirror of my 3D assembly to give an idea of what it may look like though I'd bring the two engines in a bit closer together.. A more shapely base to more closely match Sanjay's could quiet easily be cut from some 5/16 or 3/8 aluminium plate. It's all fabricated so would also be a lot cheaper than the Stuart option even if you only bought spare parts from them, similar sort of bore at 24mm to the Stuart 1"