Author Topic: Creating a Step-off Chart for Turning Radii  (Read 1719 times)

Online Kim

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Creating a Step-off Chart for Turning Radii
« on: May 23, 2024, 09:48:58 PM »
Over in my Pennsy Switcher thread Dave asked about how I was setting up my step-off sheets for turning curves and such.  And Perertha posted some of the ways he was doing the same thing.  So I decided to start this thread to help keep the discussion together.  Over there it keeps getting separated by the normal build stuff.   This should make it a better reference for people as the discussion from everyone will be in one place.

Pertertha had one sheet for ellipses that looked really nice.  Iíll let him post that here.  It seems like a very good way to do simple curves when youíre using a tool with a sharp point (like a parting tool).  Iíve done that before many times too.

However, for my example, Iím going to post the spreadsheet I used for the steam dome saddle.  It has some additional complexities like using a round-nosed tool and requiring an X and Y offset for the curve.

I tend to create a new sheet for each curve Iím trying to make a chart for.  If itís an easy one, it's easy so it doesnít much matter.  If it's hard, itís probably hard for a reason I havenít dealt with yet.  It seems difficult to make a general spreadsheet that covers all cases. However, as I do this more, I may change my mind! :)

The curve itself is fairly simple.  Itís just an 11/32Ē radius curve on the outer edge of the part.  It happens to be set back from the top of the part by 3/32Ē also.  Thereís a little flange that provides registration for the sandbox dome.  Hereís a diagram of the basic shape.  It also labels the main dimensions used for the calculations.

Rc = Radius of Curve in the part
Rt = Radius of the tip of the tool
Xoffc = X offset of the Curve from the center line of the part
Zoffc = Z offset of the curve from the front of the part
Theta = Angle of the cut of the curve

This picture also shows where I set the origin for the DRO (labeled Part Origin).  I set the X-axis using the outside diameter of the part. The Z axis is set to Zero at the face of the part.  I set the CENTER of the tool here. I considered using the left side of the tool since that was a little easier to do, but I did that and then offset it by the radius of the tool.  I felt that it made the calculations simpler to do this.  Or at least, it was easier for me to visualize the whole thing that way.  :)

Another thing to note is that the angle of the tangent point of the tool with the part will be the same as the angle of the curve on the part.  If that doesnít make sense, look at the drawing and move the tool tip along that curve in your mind.  You should notice that the purple arrow (the angle of contact with the tool) and the red arrow (the angle along the curve on the part) are always the same.  That simplifies things a lot.

Now letís look at the spreadsheet.  Iíve uploaded the full thing below if youíre interested, but Iíll include pictures of it to help explain what Iím talking about as we go.

I always begin by making the curve I want to end up with.  In this case, that is the columns labeled Xc and Zc (columns A and B).  Column C, labeled delta, is the Z step size that I chose for that step.  You can see that the delta changes as you walk through the chart.  I made this one based on the Z step size and calculated the X value for the curve using Pythagoreanís theorem.  I have the angle, so sin/cos would have worked fine too.  But I find Pythagoreanís theorem to be easier to think about when I can get away with it. These columns define an arc of radius Rc with its origin at the center of that arc.



Now, I didnít start with 50+ rows.  I usually start with 10-20 to get the math worked out right then add rows and adjust the deltaís till I get the step sizes that Iím comfortable with.

Since Iím using the round-nosed tool, I needed to calculate the angle of that point in the curve so that I could use that angle to also calculate the location of the tangent point on the cutting tool.  Thatís where columns D and E come in.  D is Theta, in radians. The spreadsheet thinks in radians, so I use that here. But I tend to think in degrees, so I converted radians to degrees in column E to help me.  These columns represent the location of the tangent point relative to the center of the circle of the cutting tool.



And then with the angle calculated, I calculated Xt and Zt (columns F & G), the locations of the cutting point of the tool based on that angle.  I used Sin() and Cos() for this.  These values are relative to the center of the cutting toolís radius.  In this diagram, the circle represents the round-head tool being used.  It may not be a full circle like this shows - mine is just a half-circle, but it works great.  When I ground it, I was aiming for a 5/64" diameter (0.0781") tip.  I missed a little and it came out about 0.076", but that was close enough for my work.  So, in my case, Rt= 0.038, as you can see at the top of the spreadsheet section of the pic.



Now Iíve got most of the info I need to figure out the actual coordinates for the cut.

Columns H & I are labeled CutX and CutZ. This defines the point where the cut actually occurs but in the coordinate space of the part.  Up till now, Iíve used a couple of coordinate systems; one for the curve (Zc, Xc), one for the tool (Zt, Xt), and now going to start converting them so that they are relative to the part (the Part Origin).  To do this we have to add the X and Z offsets (Xoffc and Zoffc) to the curve values (Zc and Xc).  This puts the curve in the right place on the part relative to the part origin.



CutZ, CutX is where we want the cut, but we still need to include the offset due to the rounded tool.  As we said, this offset changes based on where we are in the curve. That is where the TTipX and TTipZ come in (columns J and K).   These are the coordinates at the tool tip that will position the round-nosed tool where we want it.  Thatís easy to do because we already calculated the offset of the cutting point from the tool tip; Xt and Zt. However, we have to take into account that the origin for these offsets is the center of the radius of the tool.  Including the Z off set (Zt) is straight forward. But for X we have to take the difference of the offset from the radius as shown here.



Weíre almost there!  I have my DRO set to read out in diameter, not Radius. So I have to double the Z coordinate since all of the Z dimensions have been in radius to this point.  And for X, I just have to make it negative, since thatís the minus direction on the DRO. This probably isnít that big of a deal. Sometimes I donít bother with that step. I just know itís going to be negative and I make that adjustment in my mind.  But in this spreadsheet, I did it.  These values are in columns L and M and are named Xdro and Zdro.

Zdro = 0 - TTipZ
Xdro = TTipX * 2

The ĒZActCutĒ and ďXActCutĒ are not that interesting.  Itís just me backing out the radius tool offsets and DRO mapping to make sure I could get back to the right Ďcutí position.  This was an error-checking/validation step for me.  It took me a while to get everything straight in my mind and these error-checking columns helped me find my math problems and verify things.

The Xdelta and Zdelta (columns calculate the difference in the X and Z coordinates between two adjacent steps. I used this when adjusting the size of the delta in column C and in deciding when Iíd added enough steps to the table.  The MinDelta column just does a MIN() function on the X and Z deltas.  As long as one of them meets my acceptable minimum step, Iím good.  I used some conditional formatting on these columns just to make it easier to spot outliers in the step size.


The graph is also a verification/trouble shooting aid. It helps me see if the arc is going to come out the way Iím thinking.  And in this case, I plotted two lines; the blue one is the actual cut line (CutZ, CutX) showing the final radius being turned, and the red one is the position of the tool tip (TTipZ, TTipX). The tool tip also inscribes an arc but is a section of an ellipse, not a circle.    The two curves only coincide at one position; the very bottom of the cut. Then the cut starts to become offset from the tip more and more as you progress around the arc until the cut is 90o from the tip, on the very edge of the tool. I flipped the direction of the axis around in the graph so that the curve would show up in the same orientation as Iíve been thinking about it. Not completely necessary, but nice.


For actual use, I bolded the Xdro and  Zdro columns for easier reading and hid all the columns that I didn't need for the lathe operation.  Actually, I didnít hide them because that messes up the graph (the graph wonít show hidden columns). So I just made the width of all the columns really narrow (like one or two pixels) except for the ones I care about.  Then I printed it out for use in the shop.

In this case, I started from the bottom of the chart and worked my way up. I'd set the X position and move Z from the end of the part to the specified Zdro coordinate.

Sorry, this was so long-winded. But hopefully, it was somewhat interesting and/or helpful.  If I left out details you're interested in, ask.  If I've provided too much detail, sorry, just ignore my post!  :Lol:

Thanks, 
Kim
« Last Edit: May 23, 2024, 10:07:40 PM by Kim »

Offline Dave Otto

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Re: Creating a Step-off Chart for Turning Radii
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2024, 11:28:15 PM »
Hi Kim

Thanks so much for the effort that you put into this. I have been busy and only have had time to glance over it. I need some time to digest this and see if I can understand it all.
I'm sure that I will have some questions.

Dave

Offline petertha

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Re: Creating a Step-off Chart for Turning Radii
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2024, 03:58:18 AM »
Kim asked for my prior post to be put here

I made an Excel table to generate a stepover routine for an elliptical shape. An ellipse is handy because you can define the X & Y segment lengths independently, resulting in a wide range of aspect ratios to suite the purpose. For example elongated like a bullet or stubby like the end of a propane tank. (Or if a & b are equal, it becomes a circular section). Ellipses are nice smooth shapes & the intercept will be tangent to the straight shaft segment.

Hopefully the table example & sketch makes sense. Red are input values. Parameters a & b define the X & Y segment lengths respectively. X (L to R) means the step the cutting tool from left to right, but practically you probably want to use X (R to L) Right to Left. My DRO displays diameter when I infeed so I also put Y-dia that on the table. So you make the step-overs using something like a parting blade, blue the resultant stair step surface, then finish down with file & paper until no more blue is showing.

The underlying equation is : y = [ (1- x^2/a^2) * b^2 ] ^ 0.5     Y-dia = 2 * Y


Hopefully I didn't make make any math errors, if so please correct me. Apologies for the Kozo build interruption.

Offline petertha

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Re: Creating a Step-off Chart for Turning Radii
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2024, 04:00:07 AM »
Kim> That's a nice clean way to do it Petertha.  Very slick spreadsheet, thanks for sharing it.  I like the general case of the ellipse. That's an elegant way to make a very general spreadsheet for cutting curves.
I have often found I need for an X or Y offset too, for various reasons.  Another wrinkle is using a round nosed tool to cut the profile, rather than a sharp point.  That adds another level to the calculations.  But sometimes it's really nice to use a round tool rather than a sharp one - like when I was doing the parabola for my headlight reflector.  That was a convex shpae that would have been harder to file the stairsteps out of. Using a round nosed tool left a very nice finish on the reflector and made it worth the extra math in the spreadsheet.


Peter> You have raised some good points. If one wants to use a larger radius cutting tool, the spreadsheet math gets more complicated because the cutting tool nose radius is both coincident to a coordinate on the curve and also tangent to the curve at that point. The other issue is how to do the step offset. If you do equal X increments & calculate corresponding Y, that makes for more straightforward manual machining, however a likely byproduct will be larger steps to interpolate with the file as a function of the curve shape. To assist, one could subdivide that particular area with finer steps using same spreadsheet methodology. Or (like sketch example) divide the curve into equal segments, but now you have oddball X and Y coordinates to position, so choose your poison.

Again, sorry for the geometry rambling. The only reason it was on the forefront of my brain is I was thinking about a circular ended lifter acting on a cam profile. Its a similar problem. Hats off to the guys that figured this stuff out hundreds of years ago without CAD.

Online Kim

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Re: Creating a Step-off Chart for Turning Radii
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2024, 05:41:09 AM »
Thanks Petertha!  :ThumbsUp: :)

Kim

Online Jasonb

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Re: Creating a Step-off Chart for Turning Radii
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2024, 07:22:58 AM »
I just tend to pull it off the CAD drawing.

1. Draw a line that follows the curve that is spaced away from the surface by the radius of the cutter if a button tool or its tip radius if a normal insert

2. Draw a line and then pattern that as many times as needed at a spacing to suit the increments you want. You can vary the line spacing too.

3. Take the lengths of the points where the lines meet the offset curve from your datum Zero.

Best thing with this method is it will do blended curves/shapes where you may have a circular fillet flowing into an angled line and ending in part of an ellipse.



« Last Edit: May 25, 2024, 07:26:27 AM by Jasonb »

Offline gbritnell

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Re: Creating a Step-off Chart for Turning Radii
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2024, 12:26:59 PM »
I have been modeling curves by the step-off method for most of my building career.  Back when I started my apprenticeship there were no computers or even calculators so each of the journeymen on the machines had a little black book of radii calculated bu using several different sized ball end mills.  All these numbers were generated using trigonometry with the sin cosine functions. It took hours to create these charts using longhand math so the books were closely guarded.
The biggest thing to keep in mind is the size of the cusp or the amount of material left between cuts. It's a happy medium between taking forever to machine or taking forever to finish out by hand. Today with a computer and a simple CAD program one can make a whole surface of curves, radii and connect surfaces in no time.
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Offline Dave Otto

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Re: Creating a Step-off Chart for Turning Radii
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2024, 03:21:33 PM »
Jason, this is exactly what I have been doing.
Depending on how many points you want it can get pretty laborious.

Dave
 

Offline Mcgyver

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Re: Creating a Step-off Chart for Turning Radii
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2024, 03:31:22 PM »
Likewise, it works so well I've just never had much (any?) motivation to make or buy a ball turning tool.   I usually use a couple of thou for the step and have a simple excel sheet I use and have posted it for who might find it of interest (attached hereto).   Afterwards, file for a minute or two then polish.

« Last Edit: May 25, 2024, 05:59:41 PM by Mcgyver »

Online Kim

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Re: Creating a Step-off Chart for Turning Radii
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2024, 05:47:44 PM »
McGyver, that's a nice spreadsheet.  Simple and straight forward.  Thanks for posting it.

I've never used a CAD program like that for taking off points from, Jason.  I considered it but it always just seemed easier to do the spreadsheet rather than make the curve in CAD and figure out how to transcribe all the data points.  Plus, it wouldn't help for a tool with a radius tip.  I'm sure there's a way to do that with CAD too, but as I said, using the spreadsheet just seemed more straight forward to me.  Probably because I know Excel well, and am still quite the novice with Fusion 360.

Kim

Online Jasonb

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Re: Creating a Step-off Chart for Turning Radii
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2024, 07:02:08 PM »
Kim, it works for a radius tip as I said. You can either draw the offset line to the radius of a button tool eg 3mm away for a RCGT 06 or if using say a CCGT 060202 with a 0.2mm tip radius you just draw the line 0.2mm away from the curve you want. That is the insert I am using in the photo

Spreadsheet is OK for just a constant radius or ellipse. But where the CAD comes into its own is when a shape is made up from several components like angled line, radius ellipse.

You can also draw the offset lines at different spacings to keep the scallop or cusp length more regular as it follows the shape

Offline petertha

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Re: Creating a Step-off Chart for Turning Radii
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2024, 07:04:01 PM »
<edit I was typing as Jason was posting, I think it says much the same with different words>
CAD programs vary so there is no good universal advice here. Here I have  curve, happens to be a simple ellipse but it could be a complex spline for that matter. If you have a command to divide/overlay the curve with user defined N points it looks like this. Then you can define a tool tip radius (circle) & then copy paste that to each point. But its easier to work from an offset curve, its the same thing. The circles must be both tangent & coincident to the part curve. So now you have a bunch of coordinates in oddball X & Y values. My program does not have an easy way to export a table of these positions directly, that would be the ideal output to bring to the shop. I have made a screen grab which works but is unwieldly with high density spacing. There is another trick (again software app specific) where you can specify the circles as 'holes', as in drill holes. That then allows a 'hole table' output which is a quick 1-step command & prints as X,Y format on center. So a net longer workflow, but doable.

That's why for the few curve surfaces I've had todo this far, I just revert to the so called square profile parting tool profile with X,Y directly on the curve so the steps can be defined & managed completely in the drawing itself. In reality a square parting tool still has a radius, its just teeny. And you can build in a little bit of on-the-fly tolerance by cutting just short of the actual curve value which is desirable anyways come filing & sanding time. So if the theoretical infeed is 1.257", take 0.005" off & go in 1.252". Its not uniformly oversize depending on the curve shape, but it provides a bit of finishing buffer.

I wouldn't trust these techniques to more critical surfaces, but that's for the user to decide. 0.010" deviation on a cosmetic nose case is of no consequence, but it may well be on a small cam or combustion chamber for example. Speaking of cams, this is where some of the same issues come about, or at least where I stumbled n them. Here you have to be concerned about the profile of a cutting tool shape traversing over the cam X-Y coordinate at different setup rotational angles. Or a cam grinding machine that uses enlarged templates & a roller follower mechanism. Save that for another discussion.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2024, 07:16:36 PM by petertha »

Online Jasonb

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Re: Creating a Step-off Chart for Turning Radii
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2024, 07:11:59 PM »
Radii are also possible with a lot of DROs. usually called the "ARC" function

I've only used it on the mill as my lathe does not have one but you just enter radius, tool offset and the increments along the actual curve that you want so gaps between cuts constant along the face. Works like moving around a PCD pattern, you just press the down arrow and it gives the co-ordinates for the next cut

Gives results like this and that was with a square edged milling cutter.




Online Kim

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Re: Creating a Step-off Chart for Turning Radii
« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2024, 11:21:52 PM »
Yes, I see what you guys are saying.  I don't know if I have an ARC function on my DRO. I'd imagine I do. But that will only work for a single arc shape, not an elipse or a compound curve, right?

Kim

Online Jasonb

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Re: Creating a Step-off Chart for Turning Radii
« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2024, 07:07:03 AM »
Just just a single arc much like your spreadsheet so you would have to enter a new datum and radius for a second one that blends to the first

Offline petertha

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Re: Creating a Step-off Chart for Turning Radii
« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2024, 08:03:41 AM »
Further to my post about the option to dimension a series of tool position coordinates, however the drawing/display can get a bit unwieldly if the density is high. Just happened to be thumbing through a website & this (slightly redacted by me) screen grab made me chuckle.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2024, 04:07:01 PM by petertha »

Offline john mills

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Re: Creating a Step-off Chart for Turning Radii
« Reply #16 on: May 27, 2024, 01:08:40 PM »
looking at this i spent years working out tool paths for programming cnc and nc machines  in those days no cad cam to use the computer was only am
an editing function.so it was a pencil and calculator and programming using G codes.the older machines the cutter compensation was not possible in lots of cases.i usually made charts of positions for shaping .usually the centre of the radius of the tool similar to the tool parts as for profiling
a shape using a end mill.turning is the same only the radius is smaller so the figures worked out for the party of the centre of the radius..I used calculators till they wore out i think it is the fourth one i still have now.
John
       

Offline gbritnell

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Re: Creating a Step-off Chart for Turning Radii
« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2024, 05:46:55 PM »
This entire transmission case was done using the radius step-off method. It required the use of a CAD program to generate the arcs, tangencies and surfaces but the only other way would have been to make a computer models and cut it with a CNC machine. It takes time but if you are trying to duplicate cast parts it's the only way to achieve them. As I stated all of my work is done this way and once you do the charts it goes quicker than you would think.
Talent unshared is talent wasted.

Online Kim

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Re: Creating a Step-off Chart for Turning Radii
« Reply #18 on: May 28, 2024, 06:54:33 PM »
That's some incredible work there, George!  Especially knowing I was done by hand!  :o   :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:

Kim

Offline cnr6400

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Re: Creating a Step-off Chart for Turning Radii
« Reply #19 on: May 28, 2024, 07:21:24 PM »
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
"I've cut that stock three times, and it's still too short!"

Online crueby

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Re: Creating a Step-off Chart for Turning Radii
« Reply #20 on: May 28, 2024, 07:24:36 PM »
Thats a ringing endorsement for the step off chart method George!  :ThumbsUp:

When doing curves like that on the mill, do you use an end mill with a rounded corner to help blend the steps?

Offline gbritnell

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Re: Creating a Step-off Chart for Turning Radii
« Reply #21 on: May 29, 2024, 12:36:14 AM »
All ball end mills down to 3/32 diameter.
Talent unshared is talent wasted.

Online crueby

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Re: Creating a Step-off Chart for Turning Radii
« Reply #22 on: May 29, 2024, 01:05:22 AM »
All ball end mills down to 3/32 diameter.
Good to know - thanks!

 

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