No 60 Boiler

[Midland60]

For Spring crocus!!!!
Steve
I need to consult you about my boiler for the No 60. if you don't mind I can spill it all out here but I have to admit to being a clot. I am coming to you after your thread about repairing a tube and it is clear you know more about boilers than I. Once I have figured out how post a picture I will be able to tell all!!! Are you happy? I think it might amuse out American cousins to see what a cock up one can do!!!!!
Cheers David
PS Have a found a picture of the No 60, sheer beauty!

[springcrocus]

David,
I've sent you a PM.
Regards, Steve

[Midland60]

David,
I've sent you a PM.
Regards, Steve

Thanks Steve. I do not view myself as completely stupid, well not some of the time,  but how does one post a follow up to the forum. I am completely lost here. Have been through help and got lost, perhaps, I need a lesson in forums. Help Jo!!!!!! I know you are there.

Anyway, made ten bronze  screws today to replace the brass ones the FBI don't like. FBI Fareham Boiler Inspectorate,. Never done that before so quite chuffed. Tomorrow onto twelve studs with a smooth bit in the middle, an FBI requirement.
Cheers David.

[Midland60]

Does anyone know where one can get some alum to burn out a broken drill in the backhead? It seems my boiler is too long for the local spark eroders!
Cheers David

[TimB]

Hi David,  you can buy alum powder on Amazon 100g for about £2, just search for Alum.

Thats a beautiful midland,...Midland !

Tim

[Midland60]

Thanks Tim. I was just being very impatient!  Will order from the dreadful amazon.

Not sure if I have explained the place No 60 sits in history, will do soon. But she is the only example to be modelled in 5" as far as I can find out. Once back together she will be a thrill to watch going around.

Cheers David

[TimB]

Absolutely, hopefully you will post some pics of the event.

Among everything else I have started a Princess of Wales in G1, tender coming along, I quite like the 'Spinners'...

Tim

[Midland60]

I think I might write a blog on the reassembly as it will be like a build but faster!!!

If you do not use the Princess of Wales splasher and use a number like 2602, you could revert to making it into a '115' class which were better looking. Put the dome on the second boiler ring and use an appropriate number, then you would, have something special.

Cheers David

[Midland60]

Hi all
Being a bit new I am not sure if I am in the correct place to start a  thread on my boiler as I have been putting most of the conversation on the PM section for 'Springcrocus' so here goes.

I acquired a loco that is a bit of a rarity as it has not been modelled before as far as research takes us. It is a No 60 class Midland railway 4-4-0 known as a 'slim boilered' Johnson very similar in appearance to a 115 class single rather like the 'Princess of Wales', quite a famous engine. It appears to have been made around 1989/90 in England and then bought by a German. It came up at an auction in Cologne and I bought it. There is no Provenance to the boiler other than some stamping 1560 2 89 GM. It needs a 'shell test' first at twice WP.. My local boiler inspectors required it to be stripped of all clothing and be presented to them 'naked' so as to speak. This is standard UK practice and this is where the trouble starts.
First they want all the brass fittings changed to bronze as they are scared of dezincification. That goes well until the end where the firebox door sits. Three 8BA screws are successfully drilled out or in one case un done but then on the fourth I break a small drill. Have already got a small drill through but in slightly enlarging the hole it broke. Have been applying alum and it bubbles away. Have the boiler on end and small bund around the hole. Apply hot alum and heat the boiler. Lots of tiny bubbles, hooray. The tonight the last dollop of alum suddenly disappeared. The old drill is still there but I can get a needle (sewing basket kind) through. Is that the old hole? Have I eroded enough of the old drill. Very difficult to take a photo, so what next. Don't want to drill in case I break anther one. Cannot erode any more due to the alum running away or do I bash it with a punch to try to push it through? Will have to sleep on that one.
There is another problem but more tomorrow!!!
Cheers David

[Kim]

Interesting quandary, David. 

My experience in removing broken drill bits or taps out of a part is limited, but I have done it.  Alum helped reduce the problem and get it to where I could hit it with a punch to shatter the item (it was a tap, in this case).  Then I was able to get the remaining tap shards out of the hole.

In a different situation I made a small annular cutter, just larger than the broken drill and drilled a hole around it. Then I threaded that larger hole and screwed in a patch (with loctite) to seal the hole.  I was able to clean up my patch and re-drill the correct-sized hole (without breaking this time!).  You'd have to silver solder the patch, in your case, of course.  But making a bigger hole to cut out the little hole might not be a good option for you.

I've also used a small carbide end mill (1/16") to carefully mill out a broken drill bit.  I went through several of those small carbide end mills to fix one problem, so not necessarily cost efficient.  I actually found the annular cutter method above to be better, at least in my case.

Just some thoughts...

Best of luck figuring something out here.
Kim

[crueby]

I don't have any experience with the alum method, but I have used small rotary tool burs to grind out small drill bits and taps. These were the diamond coated type, like what a dentist uses, you can get them from woodcarving catalogs/stores. The narrow tapered burs were the best for this, worked my way down the flutes with the point to get all the way through. Once the center was out, each side flute could be picked out with a fine pointed piece of steel.

[springcrocus]

Somewhat similar to Chris's method, I would offer a diamond-coated circular needle-file to the hole and see if it abrades the rest of the drill away. Now that you have a through-hole, if you are unfortunate enough to break the needle file, it will punch through and can be flushed out. Gently, gently is the order of the day...

Regards, Steve

[john mills]

I have used the alum on a 2mm drill 30 mm deep in a steam passage   it was well stuck. the alum dissolved the hss until the last little bit
fell out .not much of it was left the problem was to get the drill wet with the alum solution. but it did take time .when it could wet the
metal it did not take that long to finish.i have removed lots of broken taps drills easy outs  since i started working .the 2mm drill was more difficult but the alum did .
John

[Midland60]

Thanks chaps, yes gently! Spent the day on the Fed accounts so the boiler is a little lonely!! Will have to source a diamond coated needle file and give it a go. I could bash it though but the depth to the top of the broken drill is .021 and the backhead is .136 (5 probably) and that would mean moving a lot of metal and I do not really want to do much bashing!!!!
Nothing like a gin to help the pondering of course.
Cheers David

[Midland60]

Nothing like a little success to cheer one up. Got the needle files and poked away at my piece of broken drill and  it simply disappeared! So tapped the hole 7BA made (a pair) of screws in bronze, put them in and that job is done. The alum worked very well. made a bund with blue tac and pouted the alum in. The area by the drill just seemed to issue a very fine stream of bubbles more like a fizz and it works. As with many things, patience and slowly.
If some one can give me the link to publishing photos I can show you what it looks like. And I have 3/4 of a bag of alum if you would like some, must be interesting to experiment with. I am not suggesting you break some drills but just put some in a beaker and watch. I had to warm the boiler quite a lot to make it bubble.
Next jobs are to fix a small leak in the superheater and then apply the strip of copper along the poor little boiler's belly. I am told comsol needs Bakers No 3 as a flux but it is very corrosive and toxic so I may have to do this work outside, any thoughts anyone????
Cheers David

[Kim]

Glad you were able to get that broken bit cleaned up and taken care of!  That's wonderful news!  

Pictures should be easy to attach to your post.  I you look just below the white box your type the text for your reply in, you should see the words "+ Attachments and other options".  If you click on that It will pop up some options and below that you will see "Attach:" and a "Choose File" button.  If you click the "Choose File" button it will take you to a file explorer like interface where you can select the picture(s) that you want to attach.  The pictures are size limited.  I think <500K each.  But please, resize your pics to something like 800x600 or 1024x768.  That is plenty large enough for the forum and not only saves space but makes it a better experience for people with slower internet connections.

As for the comsol - I'm not really familiar with that, but when I did a google search, it came up with soft solder.  Are you planning to use soft solder there? I have heard it's best not to use soft solder for these applications.

Kim

[Admiral_dk]

Great news that you solved the broken bit problem 

Sorry but not the right person to answer the other question .....

Per                 

[vtsteam]

Great that the drill bit is out, quite a relief I'm sure! Never heard of comsol.

Re pics: exactly what Kim said, but with some operating systems also, if you open your photo folder you can just drag a photo file into the message attachment box and that works as well as using the file explorer.

[Midland60]

Backhead  back to normal, superheater fixed, have a stinking cold but happy. First we need to get the strip along the poor old girl's belly and then off to get a cert, hopefully!!!

Will try to show you a few pics and then we might move onto restoration!!!!
Cheers David

[Midland60]

Just catching up with your replies, YES, thanks it worked.
I am new to an Apple Mac Air so finding how to get pictures down to size is another exploration!!

Comol is a 'not too soft solder' with a 396F melting point so ideal for a small fix on silver soldered work with a little 'hole'. It did the superheater this afternoon so maybe we go with it. One drawback is that once used you cannot go back to silver soldering, it has some muck in it!

I have to add a small comment from my Dad living in Canada for 60 years, for the American readers. In Britain, using soft solder we use a soldering iron. My dad called once to ask why do the Americans call it a sodding iron. No idea Dad why? Because if you pick it up at the wrong end it is sodding hot!!!!

Back to work on the photos!
Cheers David

PS Just found how to reduce picture size, watch this space!!!!
cheers

[vtsteam]

According to the company it is a soft solder composed of 1.5% Silver,  5% Tin,  93.5% Lead.
With a 296C melting point (565F)

[internal_fire]

Comol is a 'not too soft solder' with a 396F melting point so ideal for a small fix on silver soldered work with a little 'hole'. It did the superheater this afternoon so maybe we go with it. One drawback is that once used you cannot go back to silver soldering, it has some muck in it!

I suspect that heating an old boiler up to silver soldering temperature could lead to a complete disaster.  As is well known, soft solder was used in the past for the entire boiler, along with rivets for strength of course.

In this application it would seem that Comsol or similar is the best choice.

Gene

[Midland60]

Ha Ha superheater fixed, now holds 200 lbs, we are on our way. Been a bit quiet we have sticking colds around here, more next week.  And poor old Tsimplyloco is back from India via Qatar airways with food poisoning, not too well. We wish him good progress to get better!!
Cheers David

[Midland60]

Life for No 60 has moved on over the past 8 days. First Janie and I have had ghastly colds and been laid flat out for a few days. The idea of going out to the workshop was the last thing I needed.  But,
we got a bit better and I solved the last weepy problem so now the boiler holds 220 lbs fine for a quarter of an hour. Have now put the decorative strip of copper along the 'zipper' bottom and she looks good. Again took her up to 15 bar which is 217 psi. So on Friday I will present said boiler to the examiners and see if they can hold the pressure at 15 bar. Once that s dn there is no exceed]se to give me the cert I need.
Have taken photos. but they are dragging behind. Once I cab get them into my Mac and then down to size I will show them here.Then I think we close this thread and we can get onto the rebuild!

Cheers David

[springcrocus]

Best of luck, David. I'm sure that the truss you have fitted to her underside will stop her belly sagging. 
Regards, Steve

[uuu]

Excellent.   

Wilf

[Kim]

Glad to hear you've gotten it past the pressure testing, at least, for yourself. Now lets hope if passes for the inspectors too!

Looking forward to the pics.
Kim

[Midland60]

Best of luck, David. I'm sure that the truss you have fitted to her underside will stop her belly sagging. 
Regards, Steve

Steve
That is a very rude thing to say about an absolutely gorgeous Victorian old lady, Will bring her to your next IOW rally so you may kneel and beg forgiveness. I have anyway asked that she Knight you for services to (my)  locos and as she lives just down the road you should be in like fln!!!!! For our American colleagues, Queen Victoria had a summer place at Osbourne House on the IOW, look it up on Google quite a nice little summer cottage as they say!!!!

Will post the pictorial story, now that I can get photos off my iPhone into the computer, that was the challenge!
Cheers David

[Midland60]

. . . . and may I add that with encouragement from Portland, OR, FL and Denmark how can anyone go wrong. And BTW, comsol is a solder that melts at about 396 deg F, lower than solver solder, hence its use!
David

[Midland60]

Hi all
This boiler inspection business is starting to get me down as each time I take it for inspection there is another little nitpick!!  Last Friday, a couple of days ago, one of the inspectors glanced at it and said, 'don't like to look of that'. I was so annoyed, I simply picked it up and left. I must be slightly careful in what I say as I have been bollacked once being rude to them but I just wish they would follow the 'code'. First off all the code calls for 'an' (meaning one)  inspector and 'a' witness and 'the' owner. With this lot, four of them descend on the damn thing. Next I was required to change all fastenings from brass to phosphorus bronze, not a code requirement, just their whim. Then we get to the scratches, how deep are they? Maybe 5 thou, maybe even 10 thous.
With the able help from 'springcrocus' and wu (Wilf) in the IoW club the idea of the copper strip was born. It is really only a sop to these people here as one can see from the numbers. To assess how thick the walls should be let's look at Martin Evan's drawing, it requires 3/32 seamless copper tube. That is .094 thick. The actually thickness of my boiler is .109. KN Harris in his boiler making book calls for .072. Tubal Cain in The Model Engineers Handbook calls for .059 so one could conclude that there is lots of metal there anyway. The last claim was that the scratches give rise to stress 'risers'. I am not an engineer but understand what that means. But what effect might this have? one would need a stress engineer or metalogist (Sp??). Certainly none of our boiler testers are engineers just hobbyists. The trouble is that the man who fixes your central heating calls himself an engineer, we know the driver of a steam loco in England is the driver but in the USA he is the engineer and so on. Perhaps the fact that I own a lathe makes me an engineer!!!! The problem is that the BTC (Boiler Test Code) allows jumped up tin gods to be the final authority there is no appeal procedure so one has to be patient until they run out of excuses to fail the boiler.
When my Princess of Wales Boiler needed a hydraulic after 30 years successful operation, they made me take the lagging off and they were genuinely sorry that they could not find anything wrong. So we soldier on patiently, thanks for letting me let off steam!!  And btw people ask why the club runs so few locos.
Cheers David

[Kim]

Sorry to hear about your difficulties with the inspection, David.  It does sound frustrating.

Just remember, they are (hopefully) trying to keep everyone safe.  Probably not an easy job.

Hope you can get the issue resolved and more on with your project.

Kim

[springcrocus]

You have my sympathy, David, I know exactly what you mean, having been there myself. You can provide scientific evidence to back your assertions till you are blue in the face but if the inspectors are too stupid to understand the proof, then they fall back on the old tried-and tested-method which states "We've always done it this way so it MUST be right".
No point arguing with a bunch of idiots, I'm afraid.
Regards, Steve

[Charles Lamont]

you have my sympathy, too.

Phosphor bronze rather than brass for fasteners is, I believe, a pretty general requirement, and PB or gunmetal for fittings.

Over the scratches, copper is a ductile material and not notch sensitive, but you seem to have enough material to polish them out anyway.

[Admiral_dk]

Oh Man - that is tough - and you have my full sympaties + understanding why you fell something like             + the desire to keep quiet to avoid further problems down the line.

I agree with Charless that it should be possible to polish the scratches away, and remove that one from the list.

Best wishes

Per

[john mills]

talk to your boiler inspector first. see what local current code requirers before doing work on your boiler.
John

[springcrocus]

talk to your boiler inspector first. see what local current code requirers before doing work on your boiler.
John

Unfortunately, this is what everything is about. It seems like the boiler inspectors are being unreasonable because they are incapable of understanding the science behind what they are trying to make a judgement on. David KNOWS what the code requires, but it seems that the boiler inspectors are putting their own biased opinions ahead of the facts. They don't understand the data provided in evidence, so hide behind the old saying "when in doubt, chuck it out".
Regards, Steve

[Jasonb]

If you are not happy with the club inspector why not engage the services of a professional boiler inspector, many traction engine model owners do this so why not with a loco. They are far more qualified than a club inspector who may be playing safe if they are not sure of something.

[Jo]

Why does the word "Fareham" keep going over in my mind  I thought it was a long lost memory but I am getting De ja Vu  One of the reasons I moved over to stationary engines was I didn't need a boiler  .

Jo

[uuu]

This is an extract from the UK boiler test code:
  f. During examinations or tests at extended intervals (say ten
years), check adequacy of screw threads to all fittings and
mounts. Particular attention should be paid to the possibility of
de-zincification in brass fittings.

So there's the warning about brass fittings - but you're right - it's not prohibiting them, just requiring special attention.  No point trying to teach them their own job, though - they'll soon find another place to try and hang you on.  Like this:

  6.4 It is recommended that screw operated valves fitted on the back
head of the boiler should be of the type where the spindle cannot
be screwed out. The use of non-captive valve spindles or fittings
should not be a reason to fail a boiler. Also check that all levers
and hand-wheels are securely fitted to their respective spindles.

Even though the code explicitly allows non-captive spindles, I've heard their use being expressed as a requirement.  Note also this rule only refers to valves on the back head of the boiler - not anywhere else.

Hey ho.

Wilf

[Midland60]

Why does the word "Fareham" keep going over in my mind  I thought it was a long lost memory but I am getting De ja Vu  One of the reasons I moved over to stationary engines was I didn't need a boiler  .

Jo

Hi Jo
Not too far behind you I think! I have been writing to various authorities in Canada to see if I can find drawings of the flour cylinder triples we had in the Prestonian class frigates and where I have actually stood a watch or two during training. No luck so far but not giving up yet!
David

[Midland60]

you have my sympathy, too.

Phosphor bronze rather than brass for fasteners is, I believe, a pretty general requirement, and PB or gunmetal for fittings.

Over the scratches, copper is a ductile material and not notch sensitive, but you seem to have enough material to polish them out anyway.

Thanks Charles, got your pm and yes sweet and docile. Have just heard that one if not two may be resigning and the two replacements are actually proper engineers.  There is hope yet!
David

[Midland60]

Success!  The boiler has its shell test passed and certified. Many thanks to those who helped, encouraged and spurred me on. Learnt a few things too.
So I  think we can end this thread and perhaps start a brief new on on the reassembly although not  very interesting putting together a kit of parts!!
Cheers David

[wagnmkr]

Congratulations!! 

[springcrocus]

Nice one, David 

 Now, tell me, how many boiler inspectors are left at your club? 

  Regards, Steve

[uuu]

 

Wilf

[Midland60]

Nice one, David 

 Now, tell me, how many boiler inspectors are left at your club? 

  Regards, Steve

They became quite cooperative and supportive. They made their point but Wally Pearson drew their attention to the Federation newsletter from December and Richard Gibbons' article about boiler testing a spectator sport! I put it in for them as it was my last newsletter!!!
Cheers David

[Kim]

Congratulations, David! 

That was a big hurdle to overcome. Glad to see you're finally past it!

It required a lot of perseverance. Well done!
Kim

[Midland60]

Thanks Kim.
Have been absent with putting the  loco back together again which is now done. Will try to get picture sphere but more importantly I will be doing a hydraulic test this morning prior to taking it to the boiler inspectors at the club. If that goes well I will do the accumulation test on Friday. I have no idea if the injectors work, they have not been hot for 35 years or so so we will see.
If all goes to plan the next will be to show you a video of the thing running!!!

Cheers David