What’s next?

[Alyn Foundry]

What’s next?

As this year comes to a close and with the very busy week our family had coming up to Christmas now passed, I’ve been quietly thinking about 2023.
What to do next year?

With the amazing CAD produced patterns that Jason did I managed to bump along the Brayton Ready-Motor. Build a Glass cylinder 8 stroke engine called OCULO. Closely followed by a 1/3rd scale model of the Robinson HA oil engine and finally, Little Otto.

I’m beginning to run out of idea’s! My passion is stationary engines of the internal and external combustion type. I’ve never been particularly interested in the steam engine but the first engine I ever built, at age 7 was a peculiar Bell crank design I found in a magazine. My dad was a motor engineer but the nearest thing to a lathe in the garage was a pedestal grinder with a stone on one side and a 1/2” capacity drill chuck on the other. With this, rather primitive tool and some Meccano, sections of Brass tube were soft soldered together to form the cylinder and valve assembly. The piston was made from Brass and turned down using a file as it was rotated by the grinder. The valve started out from a 2” wire nail. I have just looked on the WWW but couldn’t find a picture. I’ll try and describe it verbally. Steam is brought to the valve tube that’s at right angles to the cylinder. A small hole in the side communicates with the cylinder. The valve, 2” wire nail head moves, via a bell crank back and forth across the hole. The piston rod ends with a pivoted conrod that’s attached to the crank. The crankshaft carries the flywheel and another crank on the other end that operates the aforementioned bell crank. Effectively the steam is held back until the valve moves outward which allows it to enter the cylinder. At TDC the valve moves back to allow the exhaust out through the open end. It was a very crudely built machine, but it ran…. I can still remember my father’s words. “ we shall have to put it in the useless steam museum “ That museum is a biscuit tin still sitting on the shelf in my late father’s garage. I must elaborate, that wasn’t an insult from my dad, just him pointing out how complicated the design was for what it actually did. I then went on to make several oscillators all made from bits and bobs soft soldered together.

I digress, what’s next?

There’s one design that the “ trio “ made a start upon, we called it the Wyvern. Not to be confused with the ETW design, of which we knew nothing about at the time. This engine was to be a two stroke/cycle but with open to air cylinders. The flywheel was to be placed between the arms of the “ Y “ shaped bed. The base of the Y carries an open trough that would become a small water cooling hopper. This hopper’s front face carries a horizontal transfer passage to link the cylinders mounted at either end. The cylinder head carries the various valves for admission etc. Needless to say it’s just a set of Iron castings on the shelf, cast at Rhuddlan nearly 30 years ago. The idea came about the same time as the Robinson “ X “ type was nearing completion and with its introduction set us on the path of “ true scale “ true to type replica’s.
 
So, what’s next? Anyone got any ideas?

My family is literally pleading with me “ not another flame gulper “ however I do have a passion for them, they’re simple and reasonably safe to play with.

There’s one design, the principle of which I’ve proven to run at small scale, the Southall and or Loyal patent 2 stroke. Both engines are very pretty to look at.

Hmmm, so what’s next eh? Happy New year to one and all…. 

   Graham.

[steam guy willy]

Hi, Interesting engines  and  "1 Man Power". ??!! is there a formula for that!!!   I am sure there are lots of old engines hidden away in museums and places that never see the light of day that could be "re-discovered " to model.

Cheers

Willy

[Alyn Foundry]

Thanks Willy.

I’m also open to suggestions too.

Here’s a short clip of OCULO sadly with the slow motion and flickering LED lights it’s pretty poor.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fC4Cj9lbmQ" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fC4Cj9lbmQ</a>

   Graham.

[Jasonb]

Well I suppose you could start by trying to finish the Bryston

Then there is that lump of firewood that you sent me, might be able to do something with that before it goes on the fire.

The Loyal with the slanting cylinder is also one I like

Gardner hot air engine

And what were those couple Robinson of verticals you were posting about earlier in the year before you got the Otto bug?

[crueby]

I could send you the design files for the Ohio triple expansion/four cylinder battleship engine for you to cast and build... I'd need a set back for quality control...   

[Alyn Foundry]

I could send you the design files for the Ohio triple expansion/four cylinder battleship engine for you to cast and build... I'd need a set back for quality control...   

Not exactly IC though is it Chris? 

However you’ve got me on the triple expansion with four cylinders…. 

   Graham.

[Jasonb]

Oh I almost forgot what about that vertical Hardy & Padmore, nice thin section frame would be ideal for fabrication

Or resurrect that Sombart pattern

[Alyn Foundry]

Regarding Jason’s post, here’s a video of the only known survivor of Horace Robinson’s earliest hot air engine design. Built in the USA by the Victor Caloric engine company.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQ6No2-cpuQ" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQ6No2-cpuQ</a>

Photos of patent and the British version built under license by Frank Pearn, a well known pump manufacturer in Manchester.

   Graham.

[Jasonb]

What's really needed is a combination of the two

I like the triple throw crank and tuning fork conrod of the Victor and the pump adds a lot of interest. Not keen on the 4 legged arrangement though.

On the FP built one the governor is a nice feature, I assume it opens a vent but not so keen on the double throw crank and the possible side loads that the conrods may give trouble with. "Tubular" base would be simpler to do than the legs.

EDIT, seems Victor did a cylindrical base and a governor as well as the pump

[crueby]

I could send you the design files for the Ohio triple expansion/four cylinder battleship engine for you to cast and build... I'd need a set back for quality control...   

Not exactly IC though is it Chris? 

However you’ve got me on the triple expansion with four cylinders…. 

   Graham.

I took the 'stationary engines of the internal and external combustion' phrase too literally, steam is external combustion!   

As for the four cylinders, normally a triple expansion has three cylinders, each about twice the diameter of the previous. For a ship, the total width of the engine is often a limiting factor, and by making two LP cylinders rather than one, with the total volume of what the normal big one would be, they could save width at the expense of a longer engine. Also puts the cranks at 90 degrees rather than 120.


Looks like this - the green and orange cylinders are the equivelant of one much larger LP cylinder.


Enough to make you want to switch to steam from IC for a project? Hmmmm?!   

[Alyn Foundry]

Thanks Chris, that makes sense.

Sadly I’m not inspired but I seem to recall a former customer who worked at Mirlees diesels was thinking on the lines of one of these….

Air blast injection, now there’s a challenge….

   Graham.

[vtsteam]

I kinda like this for an infernal engine:

https://www.dieselworldmag.com/diesel-engines/1929-otto-kv-50/

[vtsteam]

It sort of says to me, Flame licker my..........foot.

[vtsteam]

Or for Backwards Day put the carb on the bottom and the con rods on top:

[Dave Otto]

I have a few pictures of that very same engine I took at the 2015 Coolspring show.

Dave

[Alyn Foundry]

Now you’re talking guys….

Do you have any more information on this rather unusual engine. I can see it has double acting cylinders, some form of two stroke perhaps?

  Graham.

Edit. No, it’s definitely not a two stroke there’s timing gears on the LHS of the crankshaft.

[Dave Otto]

I found this.

https://patents.google.com/patent/US607580A/en

Dave

[Jo]

That's making it too easy for him Dave 

Jo

[vtsteam]

Should be some interesting vibratory qualities when running..... 

[Dave Otto]

Makes you wonder what they were thinking? Lower center of gravity maybe?

Dave

[Jasonb]

Bit of a throw over from the "Side Rod" steam engines which were a similar layout to get the crankshaft down low so the propshaft was not at too steep an angle.

Looks like a couple of ignitors on the sides of the heads which should keep Graham quiet for a while

[RayW]

How about a Crossley Type H or J? As you know, I started to make a pattern for the body several years ago but  it became a paperweight and I never got any further with it. Always an engine that I admired at rallies.
As an alternative, how about a four cylinder flame ignition Gardner(?) like the one at the Anson museum?

[internal_fire]

Makes you wonder what they were thinking? Lower center of gravity maybe?

I would guess that is the main reason. The crankshaft would be at about the same elevation in any configuration.

I think many (most?) engines of that era used a crosshead approach instead of the modern piston rod pivot inside the piston. Placing the "crosshead" on top lowers the center of mass.

Gene

[Alyn Foundry]

Indeed, to me it shows the evolution process of the IC engine.

Many thanks for the extra information Dave, I sent the pictures to several friends, non of whom had seen anything like it.

In my collection of small power engines I have a very unusual, unknown maker open crank sideshaft engine. The engine is very short in length, in fact everything is short. It has solid flywheels with inset Lead counterbalancing. Definitely designed for high speed running but not evolved to the closed crankcase or vertical configuration. As a throwback, hot tube and inertia governor….

The Wing patent engine is definitely one to be considered very unusual.

   Graham.

[Alyn Foundry]

Look at the flywheel on the Wing engine Jason….

I have 8 left over.

   Graham

[Alyn Foundry]

How about a Crossley Type H or J? As you know, I started to make a pattern for the body several years ago but  it became a paperweight and I never got any further with it. Always an engine that I admired at rallies.
As an alternative, how about a four cylinder flame ignition Gardner(?) like the one at the Anson museum?

Hi Ray.

The Crossley range of engines were definitely very elegant in their design. We would need a little more information to get a replica done though.

As for multiple cylinders I get a little bored after the second one…. 

Here’s a Crossley that my son Alan wanted to have a go at but as he’s currently somewhere over the Pacific rim travelling to Australia for a couple of years, it might have to wait a bit.

   Graham.

[Jasonb]

good job you have eight as it is going to need two of those to make up the required six spokes

They will also make it a very small engine

The Crossley looks interesting, again a bit of steam engine trunk guide in that one.

I also quite like that little Lawton & Parker that Anson got last year, about 2/3rd scale or whatever a 9" flywheel works out at would be a comfy size. Though if you have your way the firewood project may end up with a rotary valve

[Alyn Foundry]

Note to self, visit opticians at ones earliest convenience….

The Crossley in the photo is a very early model Circa 1880’s with “ carrier flame ignition “ nearly a 4’ diameter flywheel and only 2 1/2 HP.

Yes, the Lawton is a very pretty little engine. The rotary valve is apparently tapered too, like the gas taps of the era. I think there’s so few of these engines around today because the engineering quality is exquisite.

   Graham.

[Roger B]

That inverted twin looks quite fun   

[vtsteam]

Some thoughts about the Wing engine.....

The two pistons, rods, connecting bar, all move together as a whole, so that's a considerable mass that's reciprocating to try to balance. The crankshaft is also unusually long for a twin, with the throws external to the main crankcase. Any attempt to put a balance weight in the crankcase will produce sizeable wracking strains on the long crank. Likewise if one cylinder fires and the other doesn't, the strain over a long crank is considerable. The heavy flywheel and firing in unison of two cylinders will also put great demands on the long crank.

Even a tiny flex in that long crank, along with vibration, and uneven firing, will put heavy wracking strains on the connecting bar at top. Not to mention fatiguing the crank. Presumably the pistons are like steam pistons with fixed rods (correct me if I'm wrong) and pass though a stuffing box/spigot. This engine's moving mechanism really needs to run straight and parallel, no matter what the conditions. Much depends on the connecting bar and crankshaft stiffness, particularly during misfires in one cylinder.

I have no doubt it all works, there's a working example extant, but it does cause you to think about the special needs of this engine structurally. Balance weights if present should be located as close as possible to each end crank, and a central bearing would seem a must. The crankshaft had better be tough, the rods, maybe hollow, if feasible, etc. etc. It would be important to just visualize all of what's going on to get a better idea of how feasible it is in a model, and what one could do about its special needs.

I do like thinking about this stuff and picturing it. I'm not up to making something like this, but I do like to imagine what it would be like.

[Jasonb]

I don't think they fire in unison, if you look at the eccentrics that drive the ignitors they are at 180degrees on the cam shaft so one cylinder fires each rotation of the crankshaft. That will put a lot of uneven load into the top cross head.

[vtsteam]

Wow, then forget about my "uneven firing". They do every stroke.

[vtsteam]

It would be great to see a model running. Very interesting.

[Alyn Foundry]

FB to the rescue….

Group member Nick Rowland ( of RMC fame ) from the USA has a considerable wealth of information.

They also made a single cylinder version.

   Graham.

[Jasonb]

It's the single cylinder that was show in the link Dave posted along with the photos. also image sof the single in his last photo

If you missed it https://patents.google.com/patent/US607580A/en

[Alyn Foundry]

It would appear that other manufacturers were doing similar configurations at that time also.

A Russ.

Photo courtesy of Nick Rowland.

   Graham.

[Admiral_dk]

Wow, then forget about my "uneven firing". They do every stroke.

It should be once every revolution - the 180 degrees are on the Camshaft running @ half speed => Firing every 360 degrees.
If not - it wouldn't make sense with the pistons running in parallel 

Per

[vtsteam]

Sorry, meant revolution, not stroke.