Author Topic: 4 Part Video Series About The Current Myford Lathes  (Read 993 times)

Online Kim

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Re: 4 Part Video Series About The Current Myford Lathes
« Reply #15 on: August 03, 2022, 09:23:57 PM »
Wow! Very interesting story, Dave!  Thanks for sharing it with us.  Great to see the pictures of the tool cabinet too!

Kim

Offline Overbuilt and Overkill

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Re: 4 Part Video Series About The Current Myford Lathes
« Reply #16 on: August 03, 2022, 11:53:58 PM »
Your correct Dave, I should have mentioned it, but for a name and less key strokes that would be Greg.  :)

And I hadn't considered GHT might have been the owner or co owner of that "works" he mentioned, or that he might have been involved with more than one business. I'd just assumed because of his skills and knowledge he might have been employed as probably a machinist / fitter of some type. Your mention of George being a hard working graduate engineer explains I think a lot of his very well thought out designs and the analysis he used to get to that point. I've got enough of a collection of older pre war M.E. magazines and up into the 1960's & some into the 70's to have a rough idea of both the rarity of anyone with a home shop in the UK having any mill at all, and the costs for the tooling around that time period. So the few pictures of George's Tom Senior mill in his shop and the amount of equipment & accessories he had for it, as well as for his Myford that seemed to be absolutely stuffed into that very well equipped shop never did quite add up for someone who might have been at the tradesman level. But now with Charles & Dave's confirmation (thank you both very much) he was instead a fairly wealthy business owner. That certainly would have made things a whole lot easier to do the same.

The original and then second owner of that brand new Myford are better men than myself Dave. It would be irresistible to not use it. I did spend a fair amount of time over a number of years seriously thinking about buying one of the Super 7'S, but never quite to the point of doing so. But even more thoughts when they introduced the large bore Connoisseur, but as I've already mentioned I kept hoping they would add a non threaded spindle version. I learned the hard way to research my machine tool choices before committing to anything and have some biased opinions about what I want. So in the latter years of the original Myford lathes, I checked their web site a fair bit before they closed for good. My memory might be a bit hazy and there listing of color choice wasn't any detail I bothered to focus on since that imo proper grey was my only decision anyway. But I just don't recall any variations where that paint color meant changes for how the lathes were built or the options they had. So that agrees with Charles and Your point as well. I do seem to recall Myford would also paint a lathe in any custom color you wanted for a very serious up charge in excess of 1,000  pounds. Because of the costs, I'd doubt few would have done so. But Harry's "value engineering" is certainly pertinent to a lot of items today and worth remembering. I even tried the internet Wayback Machine to try and access the old Myford web site to be 100% positive of my information, but there seems to be a delay or interruption getting to it.

And that's got to be the most comprehensive set of watch making equipment I've seen in one place Dave. As impressive as it is, the skills & knowledge to even use it all properly are imo even more impressive and well beyond my own. Again my sincere thanks Charles & Dave for answering some questions about GHT I've had for a number of years and those pictures. Yes George did mention his dark room & photography interest, his woodworking shop that I didn't know was in it's own separate building. But no real details or pictures of any of it that I've seen in print so far. And a few mentions about Ornamental Turning as well. Again no real details, so I'm unsure if it went as far as having the proper Ornamental or Rose Engine lathes.

There's one book I have titled Myford Super 7 Manual written by Ian Bradley. https://www.specialinterestmodelbooks.co.uk/product/myford-series-7-manual/ It lists a bit about when significant changes were made to the ML 7's and Super 7's up to it's date of publication. Most here wouldn't need a lot of the more basic lathe operation information it contains. I think because of it's relatively low cost and the Myford accessory information is has, it's still worth it for anyone with a Myford ML or Super 7. I think of it as a companion book to the better J.A. Radford's Improvements and Accessories for your Lathe, and GHT's Model Engineer's Workshop Manual.

Afaik and with the limited information I've managed to pick up, Charles is 100% correct about the change Myford made between what is generally known as the narrow and wide guide set up for the Myford carriage. In case there's any here who haven't yet run across the YouTube channel before? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCD1jVjhwma9Ehj8BQqDMPHw/videos For anyone with a Myford, his details about properly rebuilding them to factory new or better condition would be priceless even if you were paying to have it done. There's at least one of his older videos that does detail how he converted those narrow guide Myford's to the wide guide as well. It seems to be a fairly simple process and might help with any older and worn narrow guide lathes.

Greg.

Offline Chipswitheverything

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Re: 4 Part Video Series About The Current Myford Lathes
« Reply #17 on: August 04, 2022, 10:21:06 AM »
Many thanks, Greg, for your long and interesting reply.  I'll have another look a bit later also.   I am sure that it will be familiar to you from your web searching, Greg, but for any who haven't come across it, the information resource about very many machine tools and their history   http://www.lathes.co.uk/   throws up a mass of detailed information about all the variety of Myford products and changes to them.  I have a few older catalogues but I think that that site just about reproduces the information in the brochures as well as much else.

 Another book that is still worth a look through, and again linked in with the rise of the Myford brand as playing a core role in UK model engineering, is "The Amateur's Lathe" by L H Sparey.  I have a 1948 1st edition, and the frontispiece shows Mr Sparey in his somewhat austerity workshop using an early ML 7 lathe with the familiar vertical slide in action. Many of the good photographs show the Myford in use on a wide range of basic and not so basic machining procedures. 
   I have got GHT's own copy of "The "M.E. Lathe Manual" by Edgar Westbury, given to him by a friend in 1959, another publication that was heavily Myford based in its pictures. By the time GHT passed it to me, he would himself have rather outgrown the need to consult its basic information!   Also I have a 1952 1st edition of Donald de Carle's "The Watchmaker's Lathe and how to use it" that was George's copy.  In it is a later letter to me from GHT saying how much he was looking forward to the publication , in 1981, of the seminal ( superb ) book "Watchmaking" by George Daniels, which I had sent GHT a blurb about when I ordered my own copy. So he was still keeping an interest in horology at that later time in life.   Dave

Offline Del_61

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Re: 4 Part Video Series About The Current Myford Lathes
« Reply #18 on: August 04, 2022, 10:47:33 AM »
So interesting to hear about GHT, I never had the honor of meeting him in person, I think the closest I have got was seeing him surrounded by others watching him at work on a Myford at a ME exhibition long ago.

His workshop equipment tools that he designed and his descriptions of how to machine /make them is second to none and can form the basics of an apprenticeship for those new to our "hobby" in my opinion.

I did my apprenticeship in the mid to late 1970's and his articles were essential reading (and I still refer to them to this day!) to enforce my understanding - almost a virtual tutor.

Another giant was T D Walshaw (Tubal Cain), I passed him in a corridor at a ME exhibition once, ...I wish I was able to say thank you, his articles in the ME were also essential reading. Sounds morbid but I did have a holiday once in the tiny halmet of Sadgill, Longsleddale (Cumbria in the Lake district), and laid some flowers on his grave in the little church there......the description on his headstone reads "Engineer of Sadgill"

Sorry to stray off the thread topic.....

Regards to all

Derek

Offline Grateful Ted

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Re: 4 Part Video Series About The Current Myford Lathes
« Reply #19 on: August 04, 2022, 04:58:39 PM »
Thanks for the history & information on Myford lathes.
Iíve been interested in them for about 50 odd years.
I could never afford one back then, settled for a SB9 which I still use.
Burt Munro used a Myford when working on his Indian.

Offline Overbuilt and Overkill

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Re: 4 Part Video Series About The Current Myford Lathes
« Reply #20 on: August 05, 2022, 09:38:33 AM »
I think the popularity of the Myford ML and then Super 7 may have had a lot to do with luck for both the company and customers. Myford without doubt got that boost due to the war as I've said. My collection of pre war M.E. magazines shows there really wasn't much around in the UK prior to Myford opening it's doors that was at least semi reasonably priced, made well enough, or all that adaptable to other tasks M.E.'s were looking for at the time. Most of what was available seemed to be based on late 1800's - very early 1900's technology and features or definite lack of. So I think Myford managed to design a product with there first ML 7 that found and even helped build a niche market other machine tool manufacturers with smaller and lower priced lathes didn't realize was there or had been ignoring with a take it or leave it attitude and what  they were willing to provide. It's still pretty amazing how the Myford lathes were just about the bench mark in the average M.E.'s shops and did exactly that for so long. A huge number of model casting kits were literally designed around there capability's they had that much effect. I'd even forgotten about Bert Munro using one until Ted jogged my memory. :cheers: and thank you.

Yes I've spent many enjoyable hrs on that Lathes UK site Dave. A fantastic resource with a great deal of information to be picked up for sure.  :) I've got a copies of Sparey's Amateurs Lathe book, and as you've said some not so basic or slightly unusual set ups in it, and Westbury's M.E. Lathe Manual as well. Other than maybe a few of the less published or out of print such as GHT's Dividing & Graduating that I think was mostly re-covered in his Workshop Techniques, I probably have about all the lathe/machining books published in the UK by the most well known M.E. authors during the late 1940's-1980's. Plus almost all of the Workshop Practice Series. But so far none of the watch/clock making publications. That still interests me, but more for the tooling and different techniques used than any completed watch or clock might. And I very much agree with Derek who wasn't OT at all with his mention of Walshaw's grave site. That to me shows a proper level of respect for someone who had earned it.

Out of all the hard copy information I have both British and American, none has taught me as much as GHT's The Model Engineer's Workshop Manual and his WT book has. I'd suggest Graham Meek might be Georges equal for picture clarity, drawing quality, highly informative writing style, and clever functional design. But TD Walshaw / Tubal Cain was imo a close second and I think exceeded GHT's efforts for a few subjects George couldn't cover because of space limitations in that amount of detail. Georges TMEWM was apparently compiled by a close friend (William Bennett) and then published after Georges death. I'd like to think he would be pleased with how well it was done.

Fwiw this book isn't really Myford specific and is a bit dated since it was first published in 1947. https://www.ajreeves.com/436.html Ian Bradley was another fairly good author. But there's quite a few lathe accessory's and modifications that could be adopted and used with almost any lathe. Some of it such as the over head driven small shop assembled / built mill and using the lathes carriage and cross slides as the X,Y would be of much less interest with the many ok ish off shore mills we now have. It's still interesting to see how much tougher most M.E.'s had it back then compared to today. And some of their work still very much impresses me even now. And for any here at the more entry level of learning? http://www.opensourcemachinetools.org/archive-manuals/Hercus_TextBook_of_Turning.pdf Highly useful no matter what lathe type, brand or size you might own.

There's a few today who are I think the video equivalent to some of those now long gone and excellent British authors. Jan's channel about rebuilding machine tools I've already linked to. This one has quite a bit well outside the accuracy requirements of most home shops, https://www.youtube.com/c/ROBRENZ There's not a video of his where I haven't picked up multiple bits of information, and most I'd never even thought about before. I think he fit's the definition of what a true master craftsman might be quite well.

Greg.


Offline Chipswitheverything

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Re: 4 Part Video Series About The Current Myford Lathes
« Reply #21 on: August 05, 2022, 02:11:28 PM »
Thanks for the further comments Greg.  What you have said about the timing and influence of Myford lathes, when they appeared , and about the publications that you have been able to make a collection of I would agree with. To have found some of these books and booklets in the USA I imagine might have been more difficult than here in the UK.  I have found quite a lot of them very cheaply here in past years.
 Here are a few that go back a bit earlier : the Paul Hasluck books are 1893, he did a whole series on various practical pursuits.  The Geo. Adams Closing Sale catalogue is about 1936, a page on the GA lathes shown.  The whole catalogue is a good resume of what was around at that time. The poor chap with his breast drill and blacksmith's leg vice is about 1925.  That gives an idea of what one might have been up against...!
    If you should ever fancy getting into the history of horological tools, then a magnificent ( expensive !) book was published privately by the American collector and researcher  Ted Crom, Florida, in 1980  "Horological Shop Tools 1700 to 1900"  I got a copy at that time, it is an extraordinary resource.
  Going back to the GHT chat, the Tom Senior milling machine arrived quite late on in the workshop fit, I'm pretty sure that it coincided with the extention to the shop towards the 'eighties.  Before that, the room was not really available.  Also a new Clarkson T&C grinder went in the new portion, and the long bed Myford as mentioned.  Because GHT had adopted the policy of designing his Myford accessories so that they could be actually made on the lathe itself, and the lathe user could gradually increase his or her scope of the lathe as the equipment was made, he wasn't all that fixed on the need for a milling machine in the 'shop.  Perhaps seems surprising now.
 But as time went on, and it was evident that more model engineers were obtaining mills, like the Westbury ( which I have )  and Dore-Westbury ( but not so much any far-eastern machines then ) GHT took advantage of the scope that they undoubtedly gave.  Also, it enabled him to work a bit more easily and quickly as he became elderly!  For the amateur, DRO 's were just about unknown then, with his favouring of methods of using the machine as a co-ordinate plotter, George would have been enthusiastic about their availability.   GHT had the castings for the Quorn, of which he held a high opinion:  and he knew Prof. Chaddock well, and was planning a build of the Quorn, but it didn't come to pass.
 

Offline GWRdriver

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Re: 4 Part Video Series About The Current Myford Lathes
« Reply #22 on: August 05, 2022, 09:49:31 PM »
I recall the Drummond Round-bed being mentioned as frequently as any other during that period.

Some years ago I'd heard a rumor there was a small shop nestled away in the backwoods beyond a small town some 60 miles from me which dealt in used tools and occasionally machinery.  When my business took me in that direction I made a point to visit and I found what was essentially a tenant shack and what greeted me on the front porch was a surprisingly clean Drummond Round-bed, used as a screen door stop!  That was the first and only Round-bed I'd ever seen in person and I was surprised at its size and relative mass.

I asked the proprietor what he'd like to have for it and the price was $25 1989 USD.  I admitted I really couldn't use it (I had no screen doors) but decided to tell him what I knew of its history. origins, etc, and went on my way.  On my return trip I went by the shop again, to look at another item, and noticed the Round-bed had been moved inside, well-oiled, and the price tag now read $625 1989 USD!   I would love to have known the story of how a Drummond Round-bed survived and ended up in the backwoods of Tennessee!

Harry

[big snip]My collection of pre war M.E. magazines shows there really wasn't much around in the UK prior to Myford opening it's doors that was at least semi reasonably priced, made well enough, or all that adaptable to other tasks M.E.'s were looking for at the time.
Greg.

Offline Overbuilt and Overkill

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Re: 4 Part Video Series About The Current Myford Lathes
« Reply #23 on: August 06, 2022, 05:54:21 AM »
This started out about Myford lathes, but I have zero issues about it bouncing around to any topic at all and maybe into something that just might help those at the more entry level. Plus I'm learning a lot of details I hadn't known before. So again my sincere thanks to everyone who has added further information or personal recollections and experiences.

I'm in Canada and not the U.S. so getting anything shop related is pretty much guaranteed to involve extra shipping charges Dave. And much more so from the UK that might not be even available here. Or in the case of Ebay re-sellers of a lot of the same books I have at multiple times there cost from the UK. While I'd never compare the minor amount of difficulty I've ever faced to those M.E.'s in the past, when I started trying to learn as much as possible about machining and Model Engineering it was before the internet was in place. More by pure luck than anything else I happened to run across an at the time unknown Model Engineer magazine in an city I rarely visited and never to that magazine shop. The Model Engineer magazine isn't common in very many book or magazine locations over here. But with that first magazine I found out about Tee Publishing, Revees, Myford etc. So I subscribed to it, ordered Tee's catalog and got busy ordering and sometimes in bulk new books every year or so. I recall one of my Tee Publications orders that weighed almost 50 lbs and it came in a large heavy fiber sack. :happyreader: 

That ultimately was a bit costly, but a massive help to shorten the learning curve a bit and I've had no regrets. Few bits of information were around about what was good and informative and others less so. So every choice was a bit of a gamble and there were some I bought that were much less than I'd expected. But over all not many that didn't have at least something of interest. And the more your learning, the more your personal opinions change about what you already understand and where further information is needed. I think you also become much more critical about just how well the information is being presented. Once the internet came along and later I got a computer and barely ever learned to use it, all this became much much easier. With it and you learn how to search for information, the rest is just time to absorb and hopefully retain most of it for later. But it will never be a substitute for that hard copy information I have and still add to from time to time. I even wore out my first copy of GHT's TMEWSM and had to replace it with one that's again getting a bit rough.  :)
 

Yes I noticed and came to the same conclusion about how GHT presented his designs and methods so they could be built with the same Myford a lot of it might be used on or was being built for. Very considerate of him to do so in that way. I'd estimate that alone added many hours of design and thought when much of it could be easily done with his mill. Although I hadn't known his mill was only added in the 1980's. And yes he did mention a few times about that Clarkson T&C, but I hadn't known it was obtained new. And those Quorn castings which is a bit surprising he never got the chance to start on. :( With that Clarkson T&C I guess there was less pressure to get it completed as quickly as possible. I have the Quorn book, but am unsure if one will ever be built by myself. There's still a lot of techniques and unusual set ups to learn from though. Given the extra in this thread I've now learned about GHT, he seems to have been what's almost universal with people who are the most talented and knowledgeable. Confident in their ability's, but still humble instead of conceited.

Harry is I think quite correct about those round bed Drummond's, before Myford they were probably the most well known brand at the time. Or at least the most advertised in those old magazines. I seem to recall Myford bought either the Drummond or maybe it was the Zyto lathes business? Lol, subtle and clever humor Harry.   

Thank you for the mention about Ted Croms book. Yes it appears to be on the expensive side even for used copy's, but I'll now keep it in mind during my visits to used book stores. And as you've mentioned, those old books and even machine tool supply company catalogs are a great resource of information even today. Obviously everyone has varied interests, but from my own collection and possibly difficult to find in the UK. I still highly recommend this one even if it had to be shipped from the U.S. 

Tool and Gauge Work first written by Goodrich and Stanley in 1907 but later editions as well. It has a fairly extensive and very interesting chapter about the first set of Johansson Gauge Blocks in North America. Usually cheap enough to find a used copy today and well worth the extra shipping for any not in North America. Also very impressive for the accuracy they considered a good sleeve bearing lathe to be capable of while locating parts onto the lathes face plate using shop made hardened and ground tool maker buttons, a shop made dti (drawings for the same within the book) and a very good micrometer to bore & grind gauges to tolerances only jig borers and grinders were capable of later on once they were invented. Over 100 years later I can just barely measure what they were efficiently doing day-day with much better metrology equipment than they had. But neither myself of any of my lathes could duplicate there results. Before reading that I'd always thought Myfords decision of a rear roller & thrust bearing and it's front sleeve bearing was a backwards step. In fact there's logical and sound desirable reasons for doing so.

Greg. 


 

Offline Chipswitheverything

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Re: 4 Part Video Series About The Current Myford Lathes
« Reply #24 on: August 06, 2022, 10:50:42 AM »
Thanks a lot for the further comments, Greg, and the take on things from your part of the world.
Thanks to Harry, also, for his amusing Drummond lathe reminiscence : sometimes one wishes that one had just shut up!  But unless there is the room for the purchase, and a way of using it, it is sort of lumber.

 Probably we are lucky in the UK to have quite a lot of the historical material relating to the hobby fairly easily available, often at pre-Covid shows and rallies:
 charity shops and house clearance dealers have been sources for me also. It's fairly easy for most who want to build up a good back collection of the Model Engineer magazine to do so without a lot of cost.
 I have a more or less complete run from the late 40's through to 2015, found some as bound volumes here and there; and had substantial additions from older friends downsizing their holdings , or sadly after bereavement of same.  Ditto a big run of Engineering in Miniature. The problem is finding the room for them, but they have consistently repaid their house -room.   When the 50 lbs sack of goodies turned up, you must have settled to some "heavy" reading, Greg!
  Prof Chaddock's book on making and using the Quorn, and associated articles  - the book was originally a long series of Model Engineer articles -  ( and there is a useful website and forum, now ) is very much along the same lines of thinking as GHT's approach to helping the averagely equipped model engineer, of a few decades ago, to enhance their tooling and skills.
  I have been chipping away at my own build of a Quorn for longer than I care to mention!  In the last few weeks I have been in the 'shop making the many, (15, though might want a few more one day...),  ball ended levers that are a feature of the Quorn. Nearly completed them, and that has been using a J. A. Radcliffe type of spherical turning tool and the scheme of holding collets and procedure that GHT gave details of.  I have made some of these ball levers before ( GHT dividing head, and the Pillar Tool...) but it was nice to be reminded of how well the tools and the method work.
 
 Re; the gradual increase in the scope of the tools and gear in model engineer's workshops from the sixties period and on into the era when GHT was writing his articles:  it has amused me a little that the estimable locomotive designer Don Young, who must have seen the workshops of very many fellow model engineers on into the 1980's and beyond, was still, very late on in his LLAS articles, not at all confident that a model engineer who had a micrometer would also be in possession of a vernier calliper! It was the world that he had grown up in.
 It was pretty inconceivable, really,  that anyone building the magnificent , complex 5" gauge "Doncaster" A3 Pacific would not have a pretty full cohort of machining and measuring equipment.  His worry about this extended to getting my friend and colleague Merlin Biddlecombe ( very sadly, departed last year, aged 90 ), to scheme out , actually machine and write up, in LLAS, a method of machining the formidable inside cylinder of "Doncaster" using only the Myford lathe.  Merlin's solution was a masterpiece of ingenuity, well worth reading!, but I know that Merlin doubted that anyone else would ever actually do the job that way!   Bung it all on the vertical milling machine...!   Dave

Offline GWRdriver

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Re: 4 Part Video Series About The Current Myford Lathes
« Reply #25 on: August 06, 2022, 06:29:27 PM »
I want to apologize to Greg for contaminating this thread with almost unrelated anecdotal posts, however for my sins I'll offer my GHT experiences.
As I did with all the well-known mentors in ME over the years, I looked forward to any GHT articles and eventually built two GHT-inspired tools.

The second (I'll get to the first in a moment) was a set of the GHT Bending rolls.  Due to the size of my anticipated work, and metal in my scrap bin, I found I could double GHT's design.  I first laid the thing out in CAD and enlarged it to fit within the envelope allowed by my material, which was scrap but also of known composition.  The result came out in most dimensions to be 2X, 200%, which I built.  In work done since, I was surprised to discover that although the main rolls were essentially twice the diameter of GHT's original design, and all other components in proportion, the gauge rolling capacity was not doubled.  In rolling a boiler barrel it struggled to roll frequently-annealed US/16ga copper.  After many passes it did indeed roll the tube, but there was evidence of roll deflection resulting thinning at the tube ends.  I now know its limits.

The first of the two projects was inspired by the GHT Staking & Tapping stand.  Once again I consulted the scrap bin, and other resources, to see what I could build.  Again based upon anticipated need and materials available, I designed a tapping stand which wasn't a copy, but nevertheless inspired by GHT.  The inspiration informed both the physical design and function, and also my understanding of the reasons for having such a tool.  I'll have to say that my tapping stand has been perhaps the single most useful tool I've ever made, primarily because over the years it's saved me a small fortune in broken taps, having Workshop Esperanto become a first language, and hours of often fruitless rescue labor.  I can't now remember the last time I broke a tap of even the smallest size.

IMHO, everyone needs one, and any Tyro (remember that term?) can make one.  It needn't be thought of as "precision" necessarily, although any precision that can be introduced into it will be a benefit.  Had I realized how helpful a tapping stand would be I'd have made one decades before I did, but one lives and learns.  This particular lesson was taught me by GHT.

Harry
« Last Edit: August 06, 2022, 06:53:26 PM by GWRdriver »

Offline Overbuilt and Overkill

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Re: 4 Part Video Series About The Current Myford Lathes
« Reply #26 on: August 07, 2022, 02:42:06 AM »
I've always been a bit envious of M.E.'s in the U.K. Dave. For the southern part of England and the highest population & most likely area of any used machines and tooling. Anyone there would be a few hrs drive away. Plus there's a multitude of those machines and that tooling from other parts of Europe that would be quite rare over here. And almost always much higher priced if you can even find it. Even a few and to get this partially back OT, less produced accessory's Myford had available. I've yet to see even one of for sale over here. There capstan / turret accessory as one example. So all that availability you have would in general help keep the prices lower. You also have that high number of preserved locomotives and steam museums for researching a lot of full sized items, all those pre Covid M.E. shows & rallies you mentioned for inspiration, as well as multiple M.E. suppliers. In general, it's probably a wee bit tougher for those of us across the pond. However I'm not all that envious of your 20% VAT. Our extra freight costs more than make up for that though.

As I've said, I also have a lot of the pre war M.E. magazines. Going by the in general fairly poor B&W photos, but most times well detailed articles. Early 1900's-maybe 1960's workshops compared to today were pretty austere. A lathe of some type, and lot's of those appeared to be in fairly worn or poor condition, treadle driven for some, maybe a drill press or old hand cranked post drill, egg beater type drills for portability, a shaper, small planner or even more rare a horizontal mill for the really lucky or well off owners. Some even had to resort to either a small steam engine or lower HP gas engine and line shafts just to get power to whatever machine tools they were lucky enough to have. If you go back far enough like those old magazines do, electrical motors weren't the universally available and expected as standard equipment item they are now. And then some type of shop made or commercial vertical slide for the lathe if you'd been at it for awhile I'd guess. Today it seems the general perception by many is those lathe milling attachments are just about worthless. Ok even against a 300 lb or larger round column and off shore mill, then yes there's definite size and vastly reduced rigidity limitations. There's still a large amount of models within those old magazines that are just as impressive today. I'd love to know when the likes of M.E.'s  such as Mrs. Cherry Hill/Hinds first had access to a mill. Many of the better recognized M.E. authors prior to maybe the 1970's sure didn't seem to have one. Anyone trying to learn certainly didn't have the easy access to information and learning capability we now have, and that's true for just this forum alone. Overall I think it took a great deal more dedication and effort. Which makes what they did accomplish even more impressive. Your Westbury and then the later Dore-Westbury you had to build and machine the smaller components for is another example of the effort it took. I seem to recall that Dore-Westbuy still being advertised into the early 80's? How many today chain drill and then spend days filing out locomotive frame openings to finished size, then hand layout, center punch and drill all the holes for every bolt or rivet when many of them can be ordered as almost finished laser cut items. Even a now lowly digital calculator would have been an unbelievable luxury. Back then they did have a few things in there favor though, more had full size machining and steam experience or at least it would be more common to know others who did. And even most city's, towns or villages had at least one foundry within it or close by. Those old M.E. magazines seem to show more home produced patterns and using those foundry's for tooling and model castings than what's usual or even available to most today. So more one off and original scale copies of at least full sized locos, stationary or even marine engines seemed to be getting designed and built by quite a few than now. Very few today would even attempt or have the full scale knowledge to do what Commander WT. Barker did with his amazing and extremely complex scale multi cylinder marine engine models in the early half of the 1900's.

Harry you certainly weren't nor has anyone else imo been off topic since as I said I don't care wherever this thread happens to go. I've taken it OT and still am multiple times myself. :) In theory and if I understand the math correctly, that twice size set of rolls should be 8X as rigid and (I think) would have 4x times the deflection with 2X the length. The increase in diameter should more than cover that. So either my math and basic understanding is wrong (probable) or the real world doesn't play as nice as it should with that Young's Modulus theory. But interesting how your rolls capabilities aren't that much better. But there's also the theory that double the material thickness would require 8X (I think) the force to roll it at the same width? And double that for material twice as wide? I wonder and since it's been mentioned GHT was apparently a licensed mechanical engineer, how much proper calculation for the expected loads went into that fairly simple looking design for him to come up with the dimensions he used? GHT didn't mention his back round, qualifications or even much about how he came up with his design choices. So I now suspect there was much more to them than I'd thought.

I've almost ordered that UPT tapping/staking kit from Hemingway a few times. I'm certainly "not" and never will be anywhere close to being more clever than GHT on his worst day. But I've always thought after reading the building details in the Workshop Techniques book that adding a second base casting it's main rear column uses and much longer shaft to the table would be a far more rigid method if that table support shaft was allowed to go through that extra casting and the bench top while it was being adjusted up or down. It would then act a bit like the support used with knee mills. In my opinion every sub 1,000 lb drill press available today suffers drastically with table deflection due to the very poor cantilevered design and light weight table to column support. There all an inherently flawed design imo. It's also why I no longer even have a drill press and use my mill instead. Obviously that UPT was designed and meant for tiny drills and work pieces, but it's also been designed as a precision high speed bench drill with multiple other capabilities. Any table deflection at all works at odds and directly against what it was meant to do. For what should be a small added amount of cost and time, plus my own built in biases, I still think it might be a worthwhile addition. It would prevent the table from being moved in a lateral arc at any time, so there is that deficit to my thinking.

And fwiw one further thought. If the supplied main vertical post was allowed to again go through the bench top and the table and it's support casting removed, any small X,Y or rotary table that the UPT's light weight table couldn't adequately support could be bolted down under the spindle and used for coordinate or PCD drilling. That would also allow the motor drive, spindle and whatever cutting tool / tap length to be first and roughly located to the fixed elevation of those tables. But the usual bench mount motor would have to be column mounted on the rear as I've seen some others do. And whatever table is used, then correctly shimming it to the UPT's spindle would be necessary, but that's just a small detail. The usual edge or hole location mill methods and coordinates from those could then be used. I even have a spare & pretty decent Emco C 5 mill X,Y table that would be just about perfect for this.  :)

Offline Chipswitheverything

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Re: 4 Part Video Series About The Current Myford Lathes
« Reply #27 on: August 09, 2022, 01:00:06 PM »
Thanks again for the interesting reply Greg.   I am having a major disruption to my broadband connection, since Saturday morning, and no firm idea of when British Telecom will sort it out ( thanks a bunch! ), so will just make this acknowlegement for now.  Dave