Author Topic: Bilgram's valve diagram a graphical method to design a steam valve  (Read 8566 times)

Offline crueby

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Re: Bilgram's valve diagram a graphical method to design a steam valve
« Reply #30 on: April 18, 2022, 07:25:39 PM »
Yup - that ol' dog just learned a new trick!   :Lol:    I see, I see more diagrams in your future...!   :atcomputer:

Offline Dan Rowe

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Re: Bilgram's valve diagram a graphical method to design a steam valve
« Reply #31 on: April 18, 2022, 08:01:25 PM »
I see, I see more diagrams in your future...!   :atcomputer:

Yes Chris, but the graphics department of the loco works is talking about a walkout if this thread does not have a finished outside admission piston valve solution soon.  :happyreader:

Cheers Dan
ShaylocoDan

Offline crueby

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Re: Bilgram's valve diagram a graphical method to design a steam valve
« Reply #32 on: April 18, 2022, 08:24:06 PM »
I see, I see more diagrams in your future...!   :atcomputer:

Yes Chris, but the graphics department of the loco works is talking about a walkout if this thread does not have a finished outside admission piston valve solution soon.  :happyreader:

Cheers Dan
The art department needs a box of Oreos...

Offline Dan Rowe

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Re: Bilgram's valve diagram a graphical method to design a steam valve
« Reply #33 on: April 18, 2022, 10:57:40 PM »
Chris, the only Shay piston valve drawing I have on hand was for the first Shay equipped with piston valves. A very odd thing about this unique loco was that the #1 cylinder (closest to the engineer) had a D slide valve and the other 2 cylinders had piston valves. I think it used the standard crankshaft for a 3-12" x 14" so the #1 and #3  eccentrics must have been a mirror of each other. I have to check the drawings after this thread winds down to see if the piston valves were inside admission as I am now suspecting them to be.

I just checked on Shaylocomotive.com and this FACT is not recorded. It looks like someone failed to mention it when I was working on the book. I was planning to draw S/N 591 for the class C Shay. I did drawings for all the other classes including the first four truck model S/N 673.

I found an interesting artifact on the frame drawings for S/N 673 there was a hole for a rivet that was half a hole off from the matching part. If both parts were made to the drawing then someone was going to have to get out the big reamer to make the hole oversize for a custom larger rivet. A bad day on the Lima Shop floor sometime in 1907.

Tales from the Shay drafting room in Dripping Springs TX.

Cheers Dan
ShaylocoDan

Offline Dan Rowe

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Re: Bilgram's valve diagram a graphical method to design a steam valve
« Reply #34 on: April 18, 2022, 11:25:43 PM »
After this thread wraps up, we need to show the double d valves like Marion used with reversing and throttle built in, and are inside admission with outside help... But thats another whole discussion!
`

Hi Chris, just now responding to this, yes a thread on double D valves... The early Shays were equipped with a double D valve. They can be seen in a clear photo of the steam chest because the steam chest extends past the top of the cylinder cover. I did a drawing of the 10" x10" cylinder but never tracked down the slide valves which undoubtedly have outside lap.

The double D slide valve is I believe a variation of the long slide valve invented by William Murdock I found the British patent number and the date but I never found how to find a copy of the patent online. Maybe there is someone familiar with online British patents reading this who can supply a link for the research.

Cheers Dan
ShaylocoDan

Offline crueby

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Re: Bilgram's valve diagram a graphical method to design a steam valve
« Reply #35 on: April 18, 2022, 11:54:35 PM »
Dan, send me the British patent number, I can look that up. I have the Marion patent on how they configured the double d valve, in combination with a variable opening piston valve. Fascinating, will post diagrams of that when we get there. SO many varieties of valves!!

Offline PJPickard

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Re: Bilgram's valve diagram a graphical method to design a steam valve
« Reply #36 on: April 19, 2022, 12:22:32 AM »
How odd...a mix of D valves and piston valves. It's like Lima wasn't sure of the piston valves..."let's keep one a slide valve just to be on the safe side"! Hahahaha!!

Offline Dan Rowe

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Re: Bilgram's valve diagram a graphical method to design a steam valve
« Reply #37 on: April 19, 2022, 12:28:04 AM »
Chris,
British Patent number 2340 in 1799. The Murdock slide valve is referred to the long slide valve in some early texts, which is what makes me think early double D variant is what is in the patent.

Cheers Dan
« Last Edit: April 19, 2022, 12:39:47 AM by Dan Rowe »
ShaylocoDan

Offline Dan Rowe

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Re: Bilgram's valve diagram a graphical method to design a steam valve
« Reply #38 on: April 19, 2022, 12:32:57 AM »
How odd...a mix of D valves and piston valves. It's like Lima wasn't sure of the piston valves..."let's keep one a slide valve just to be on the safe side"! Hahahaha!!

Paul, you might have something there as it really is a mystery. The drawings for the D slide valve cylinder are on a separate cylinder drawing and I got the impression that it was a last minute change so I have to check the drawing dates when I pull them from the stack.

There is also a field report for this engine if I can find where I stashed it on my hard drive.

Cheers Dan
ShaylocoDan

Offline crueby

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Re: Bilgram's valve diagram a graphical method to design a steam valve
« Reply #39 on: April 19, 2022, 12:59:11 AM »
How odd...a mix of D valves and piston valves. It's like Lima wasn't sure of the piston valves..."let's keep one a slide valve just to be on the safe side"! Hahahaha!!
Its very common for Corliss valve compounds to have poppet valves on the LP cylinder inlet/exhaust and sometimes the IP exhaust too, by that point they are just trying to get the most flow through with the lower pressure steam. Piston and D valves are an unusual combination though.

Offline crueby

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Re: Bilgram's valve diagram a graphical method to design a steam valve
« Reply #40 on: April 19, 2022, 01:06:25 AM »
Chris,
British Patent number 2340 in 1799. The Murdock slide valve is referred to the long slide valve in some early texts, which is what makes me think early double D variant is what is in the patent.

Cheers Dan
Hi Dan,
Found it - they way they represent the patent numbers of those early ones is 'GB' then the year, then the number with zeros to pad it out to 9 digits, then A.  So, "GB179902340A". I've attached a copy of the original patent in PDF form for you.
Chris

Offline Dan Rowe

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Re: Bilgram's valve diagram a graphical method to design a steam valve
« Reply #41 on: April 19, 2022, 01:09:36 AM »
Chris, no such thing as a Shay compound. I wish that was not the case. The #1 cylinder on S/N 591 was an HP cylinder exactly like #2 & #3 all HP steam to a common steam bracket that functioned as HP steam supply for each cylinder and separate exhaust passages to the common exhaust pipe.

Cheers Dan
ShaylocoDan

Offline Dan Rowe

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Re: Bilgram's valve diagram a graphical method to design a steam valve
« Reply #42 on: April 19, 2022, 01:15:08 AM »
Hi Dan,
Found it - they way they represent the patent numbers of those early ones is 'GB' then the year, then the number with zeros to pad it out to 9 digits, then A.  So, "GB179902340A". I've attached a copy of the original patent in PDF form for you.
Chris

Wow thanks, Chris now that I see the drawings I have seen some of them but not all of them. I will have to READ the words and work out how the very first slide valve worked.

very cool...... :cartwheel: :cheers: :DrinkPint: :whoohoo:

Cheers Dan
ShaylocoDan

Offline crueby

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Re: Bilgram's valve diagram a graphical method to design a steam valve
« Reply #43 on: April 19, 2022, 01:29:22 AM »
Hi Dan,
Found it - they way they represent the patent numbers of those early ones is 'GB' then the year, then the number with zeros to pad it out to 9 digits, then A.  So, "GB179902340A". I've attached a copy of the original patent in PDF form for you.
Chris

Wow thanks, Chris now that I see the drawings I have seen some of them but not all of them. I will have to READ the words and work out how the very first slide valve worked.

very cool...... :cartwheel: :cheers: :DrinkPint: :whoohoo:

Cheers Dan
You're welcome!  Patents are an amazing resource, since they talk about what the invention is, how it works, and how it is (supposedly) better than what came before it.
 :cheers:

Offline Dan Rowe

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Re: Bilgram's valve diagram a graphical method to design a steam valve
« Reply #44 on: April 19, 2022, 02:24:02 AM »
they way they represent the patent numbers of those early ones is 'GB' then the year, then the number with zeros to pad it out to 9 digits, then A.  So, "GB179902340A".

Chris thanks for that formula. I knew the date was important for early GB patents just not the code to convert it to a usable patent number.

Cheers Dan
ShaylocoDan

 

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