Author Topic: Model Engineer Magazine - old issues? (Read 4427 times)

crueby · « **on:** March 26, 2022, 07:57:11 PM »

One of the projects on my wanna-do-someday list is a Ransome Tree Feller or Ransome Crosscut Saw. Same machine, two different bases, one holds it vertical, other holds it horizontal. I've found copies of the old Ransome catalogs online, with some great pictures and a little info, plus have found the patents that show the valve details.

Was doing some more poking around, and found out that Model Engineer Magazine did a build article on one back in 1995, but I'm having a hard time finding those issues, have seen just two of them so far for sale.

Does anyone have a good source for me to try, or have those issues in a big pile in the corner of their shop that they'd be willing to sell me or copy? I'm looking for Volume 174, issues 3986, 2990, 2992, 3994, 3996, and Volume 175 issues 3998 and 4000.
Any help much appreciated!
Chris

EDIT: fixed the volume number for the first set of issues, I had mistyped it as 175 for both volumes...

Jasonb · « **Reply #1 on:** March 26, 2022, 08:27:40 PM »

Don't think I have 175 but will look later, may be a lady that has them though and neatly bound not in a stack like mine.

crueby · « **Reply #2 on:** March 26, 2022, 08:32:26 PM »

Whoops! Typo on my part, the first part of the set is in volume 174, not 175. Here is the corrected list!

I'm looking for Volume 174, issues 3986, 2990, 2992, 3994, 3996, and Volume 175 issues 3998 and 4000.

Firebird · « **Reply #3 on:** March 26, 2022, 08:51:12 PM »

Hi Chris

We have most of the back issues at our railway club. If no else comes up with them I will see if I can borrow them and make some scans for you, but you will have to bear with me time wise.

Cheers

Rich

Jasonb · « **Reply #4 on:** March 27, 2022, 06:59:44 AM »

Sorry, I have a gap after Vol 169 so can't help.

Jo · « **Reply #5 on:** March 27, 2022, 08:05:43 AM »

This one

Jo

Jasonb · « **Reply #6 on:** March 27, 2022, 08:29:31 AM »

That looks a lot more interesting a subject than the old etchings of the tree feller that I found on the net, though it is the cross cut it's still a lot more of a project. If you are able to scan, I'd be interested in a look too.

https://www.sciencephoto.com/media/726859/view/ransome-s-tree-felling-machine

~~I assume the valving works much like a steam pump just moving the blade rather than a ram.~~ Edit just looked again and saw that slow spiral twist in the square section rod at the top of the guides so must use a rocking type valve, all the more interest and challenges

Jo · « **Reply #7 on:** March 27, 2022, 08:43:39 AM »

The valve mechanism is quite interesting

I doubt that the company who did the castings in Southend on Sea are still going or doing them

Jo

Jasonb · « **Reply #8 on:** March 27, 2022, 10:08:20 AM »

I did not know that castings were available and infact until you posted that image had never seen one, certainly not one of Haining's most popular of designs. Is it close to the original or a bit like some of the TEs?

BillTodd · « **Reply #9 on:** March 27, 2022, 10:21:49 AM »

That is an interesting valve mechanism.

I was surprised it seemed symmetrical , but I guess the blade used could cut on both pull and push strokes

Bill

Jasonb · « **Reply #10 on:** March 27, 2022, 01:29:29 PM »

I found an old photo of the feller with it's horizontal blade

https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/File:Im1916EnV122-p104.jpg

crueby · « **Reply #11 on:** March 27, 2022, 01:45:14 PM »

Quote from: Jo on March 27, 2022, 08:05:43 AM

This one

Jo

Thats the one Jo!

Any chance you could scan the articles? I'd send you and Surus some Peanut Wine.... (is there such a thing?? )

Even if the drawings do not show all the dimensions due to assuming castings to start, there would be enough for me to fill in the gaps in a CAD model, then I'd post back the plans from the CAD for everyone.

crueby · « **Reply #12 on:** March 27, 2022, 04:33:01 PM »

Got pictures of the article pages sent to me, many thanks!!!
What I am going to do (after printing them out to sit and read this afternoon!) is make a 3D CAD model based on these articles, make up a set of 2D plans from that, and share them back to the group - I can tell there is a bunch of interest from people here to build a model of one of these saws. Give me a couple weeks to get that done, and I'll post them in the Plans section for everyone. There are two versions of the Ransome saws, one horizontal for tree felling, one vertical for cross cut sawing of logs. They both use the same mechanism, just a different base, and the catalogs mention that the same machine can be swapped back and forth between the bases. I am planning on drawing both bases, and will include them along with copies of the patents I've found for the saws.

Thanks all, will be back on this later on.
Chris

Dave Otto · « **Reply #13 on:** March 27, 2022, 05:06:46 PM »

Hi Chris

Attached is a photo of one that Jerry Pontius from Deadwood SD built.

Dave

crueby · « **Reply #14 on:** March 27, 2022, 05:12:17 PM »

Quote from: Dave Otto on March 27, 2022, 05:06:46 PM

Hi Chris

Attached is a photo of one that Jerry Pontius from Deadwood SD built.

Dave

That's a beautiful model, I think it's pictures of that one at a show is what got me interested in the Ransome saws.

Johnmcc69 · « **Reply #15 on:** March 27, 2022, 07:46:10 PM »

That's a pretty slick little machine!

I'm looking forward to see what you come up with.

John

crueby · « **Reply #16 on:** March 27, 2022, 08:08:04 PM »

I've read through the article - plans look good, though as common with these articles he makes changes and ammendments to the drawings as he went. I will make a CAD version to check it all out, and post plans when it is done so everyone can have a set and build the saw if they want.
Chris

crueby · « **Reply #17 on:** March 27, 2022, 08:35:29 PM »

Just to give people some more ideas of fun (and scary) saws to model, just got sent this article. Check out the Holt Stump Saw in the third image!

Jo · « **Reply #18 on:** March 27, 2022, 08:38:56 PM »

Chris, are you planning on making it a donkey to go with it

Jo

Jasonb · « **Reply #19 on:** March 27, 2022, 08:51:41 PM »

Yes, looks like you need plenty of steam

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygyuWg12i2A" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygyuWg12i2A</a>

crueby · « **Reply #20 on:** March 27, 2022, 08:52:47 PM »

Quote from: Jo on March 27, 2022, 08:38:56 PM

Chris, are you planning on making it a donkey to go with it

Jo

Well, I've had the Harris book on building a donkey engine for ages, its also on my list! Picked up a PMR vert boiler kit long ago thinking it would work with that model, also sitting there collecting dust in the queue. Its got ticket number 4312354, currently serving number 12!

crueby · « **Reply #21 on:** March 27, 2022, 08:54:42 PM »

Quote from: Jasonb on March 27, 2022, 08:51:41 PM

Yes, looks like you need plenty of steam

[youtube1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygyuWg12i2A[/youtube1]

Now thats fun!

Elam Works · « **Reply #22 on:** March 28, 2022, 12:12:38 AM »

There is always chain-drilling and dynamite. Much simpler, though not sure what the scale modeling possibilities are...

-Doug

crueby · « **Reply #23 on:** March 28, 2022, 04:17:21 PM »

Started some drawing in Fusion on the Ransome saw. So far the drawings have been pretty good, one spot where he put a changed drawing in a later issue, and where he drew the valve cranks mentioned that he wanted to build/test them before going back and drawing them up with dimensions. Never did, so those details are missing, but won't be hard to work out. I've changed the layout of the steam passages to be more like the original machine, and have not gotten to the details of the valve block in the center of the cylinder, but you can see the main moving parts in this screen shot:

This is going to be a fun one! More progress shots as it goes along, and plans will be posted when its done!

crueby · « **Reply #24 on:** March 28, 2022, 04:18:26 PM »

Whoops - when I posted that shot, noticed that the saw guide on the end of the rods at the right side of the picture is backwards, saw blade goes on the far side!

Jo · « **Reply #25 on:** March 28, 2022, 04:19:06 PM »

Looking good Chris

Jo

crueby · « **Reply #26 on:** March 28, 2022, 04:24:43 PM »

Thanks Jo! Its a great article series, the pictures of the real machines and the fact that he got to see the real ones really helps the details.

Johnmcc69 · « **Reply #27 on:** March 28, 2022, 05:54:14 PM »

That does look good.

What kind of bore/stroke is the model version?

John

Jasonb · « **Reply #28 on:** March 28, 2022, 06:11:15 PM »

You're making swift progress with that. I've just about finished another engine with similar two guide rods for the crosshead and it's quite a good yet simple way to do it.

crueby · « **Reply #29 on:** March 28, 2022, 06:23:18 PM »

Quote from: Johnmcc69 on March 28, 2022, 05:54:14 PM

That does look good.

What kind of bore/stroke is the model version?

John

As drawn, bore is 5/8", stroke is 3.0625". According to the old Ransome catalogs, they made two sizes of the saws, looks to me like this one is the smaller of the two, but in the catalogs they don't give much in the way of dimensions other than weight of the machine so its hard to tell for sure.

crueby · « **Reply #30 on:** March 28, 2022, 06:25:21 PM »

Quote from: Jasonb on March 28, 2022, 06:11:15 PM

You're making swift progress with that. I've just about finished another engine with similar two guide rods for the crosshead and it's quite a good yet simple way to do it.

Good to hear! I've got a woodcarvers bench with a wide vise that works pretty much the same way (not steam powered though!) and it works nice and smoothly, as long as the holes for the rails are all at the same distances in the end/middle parts it should be good.

john mills · « **Reply #31 on:** March 29, 2022, 08:12:19 AM »

will be an interesting model and to see it working the full size machine is interesting watching it cutting

John

crueby · « **Reply #32 on:** March 29, 2022, 11:24:26 PM »

More progress on the CAD version, added the sliding base that Ransome shows in their catalog as one of the options. It was typically used at a sawmill for trimming longer logs, has a handwheel to move the saw back and forth along the log. Most of the parts are on, except for the valve assembly and steam passages...

Dan Rowe · « **Reply #33 on:** March 29, 2022, 11:54:07 PM »

Just what I always wanted a steam powered sawzall. I have to add this one to my build list.

Cheers Dan

crueby · « **Reply #34 on:** March 30, 2022, 12:48:19 AM »

Quote from: Dan Rowe on March 29, 2022, 11:54:07 PM

Just what I always wanted a steam powered sawzall. I have to add this one to my build list.

Cheers Dan

Careful, the extension cord is HOT!

Jasonb · « **Reply #35 on:** March 30, 2022, 07:16:00 AM »

Could always wire the boiler up to an element and 18V power tool battery then you would have a cordless one

crueby · « **Reply #36 on:** March 30, 2022, 02:47:02 PM »

Got the valve and passages done. Not totally happy with the arrangement of the blocks around the cylinder, the valve passages are complex, but it matches the original machine. Going to give them some more thought, may change them a bit. The article was written before he made and tested the parts, and there are missing things in the plans that he was going to go back and add but never did, which makes it tricky. But, enough is there to puzzle it out.
Here is another screen shot from Fusion:

crueby · « **Reply #37 on:** March 30, 2022, 10:52:32 PM »

As I mentioned in the last post, I'm not real happy with the valve and passages the way that the article drew them, very complex and lots of internal passages interweaving in a small space. Just brought up the original Ransome patent, US206404 in 1878, and it has it all much simpler. It has the exhaust coming out close to the valve body, where the article puts it through the trunnion opposite the inlet, also through a trunnion. In the patent, both inlet/exhaust are out the top.

So, I think I am going to change the CAD version to be more like the patent, which will simplify construction for the model version in several ways. Now, on the existing machines shown in the photos in the article, taken at steam shows, the inlet and exhaust DID go through the trunnions, and the catalogs I've found also show it that way, but only on the vertically-mounted machines, not on the tree feller horizontal ones. If I change it to be like the tree feller, then the model could be mounted both ways depending on how the builder wanted to display it. The early catalogs mention this was a possibility - I think that Ransome may have changed the layout for the vertical one along the way, they did make these saws for decades.

More in coming days...

Jasonb · « **Reply #38 on:** March 31, 2022, 07:28:48 AM »

Always a bit of a toss up between what is shown on a patent and what the company actually ended up making plus the fact they would have been using cored in passages and we have to make adjustments for fabricated parts or non cored castings. Even when Haining was writing there were not that many home workshops with milling machines so designs would have been suited to use of a vertical slide on the mill.

I could not get the Patent to show on Google, maybe when you post the drawings some links to ref material you found on line would be useful to potential builders.

I suppose having the trunnions used for the steam on the feller put them close to the ground risking damage and raising the machine would have wasted wood and made it top heavy, not an issue with the crosscut version.

crueby · « **Reply #39 on:** March 31, 2022, 01:59:54 PM »

Hi Jason,
Attached is a copy of the Ransome patent for the tree feller. Also, here is a picture of the crosscut-mounted version - it has the trunnion-mounted inlet/exhaust that I think is a later change from their production. All the earlier versions of the Feller style have a different valve and steam connection arrangement, shown in the second picture.

They made these types of saws for several decades, and comparing pictures in the catalogs from different years shows that they were evolving the designs over time. At first the same unit was used for crosscut with a different stand, but later crosscut versions were different. So, I'm going to try and draw up that earlier valve style, should be easier to build as a model.

Jasonb · « **Reply #40 on:** March 31, 2022, 02:09:57 PM »

Ah that's more like it and what I said back in post #6 when Jo first showed the cover photo, its a rocking valve much the same as the Filer and Stowell that I made a while ago. Maybe another case of Haining's simplification?

Thanks for the patent and other images

crueby · « **Reply #41 on:** March 31, 2022, 02:40:16 PM »

Yup - very similar to that!

Jasonb · « **Reply #42 on:** March 31, 2022, 02:44:41 PM »

One from a book

crueby · « **Reply #43 on:** March 31, 2022, 03:22:24 PM »

Great reference!

EDIT: Found that book on Google Books, can read it online, great book. Just go to Google Books and search for the title, "valves and valve gear mechanisms"

crueby · « **Reply #44 on:** April 01, 2022, 12:54:44 AM »

Got started on figuring out the new valve arrangement late afternoon, and now all of a sudden its almost 8pm - time warp!

But, did get the valve arrangement changed to be like the patent and early catalogs have it, and it will be MUCH easier to build from bar stock (or even from castings if someone makes them). I like this a lot better, and it will allow it to work as a tree feller (horizontal blade) too.
Here is a new screen capture:

Next I'll draw up the horizontal base for tree felling, using the same saw otherwise.

steam guy willy · « **Reply #45 on:** April 01, 2022, 01:33:31 AM »

Hi Chris lovely graphics ...and how many fellas does it take to use it ??!!!

Willy

crueby · « **Reply #46 on:** April 01, 2022, 01:46:36 AM »

Quote from: steam guy willy on April 01, 2022, 01:33:31 AM

Hi Chris lovely graphics ...and how many fellas does it take to use it ??!!!

Willy

One of them has to Bark!

Good to hear from you, young 'feller'-me-lad!

Okay, here come all the tree jokes...

crueby · « **Reply #47 on:** April 06, 2022, 12:01:33 AM »

Hi all,
I've been doodling away at the Ransome saw CAD model, redoing the valve and passages to be like the original machines were since the version in the magazine was overly complex. The Ransome company made these saws for decades, and there were a number of variations on the theme that they produced. This model is based on the pictures and descriptions in the earlier Ransome catalogs (they made a huge variety of machines). The magazine article that Jo sent me a copy of was very useful too, but the way the author laid out the passages and valve were just too complex, plus when he wrote the article he had not built it yet, and there were portions not even drawn yet - the price of publishing deadlines!

So, here are some screen grabs of the cad model. There are two versions, one with the crosscut base that they sold for use at sawmills:

and one with the tree feller base, sold for use, well, felling trees! Its the same saw unit just a different base that its mounted to:

The feller version is one that I've seen pictures of from steam engine shows, terrific work, and thats what got me interested in the first place.
Next I'm going to generate the 2D plans from the CAD model, and I'll start a thread over in the Plans sub-forum with a copy of the PDF files of all the plans - I know there are others in the group here that are interested, it will be fun to see how many of these get built. Its a pretty simple mechanism, a lot like the steam boiler feed pumps - no crankshaft or flywheel, just a valve operated by the piston rod at each end of the stroke to reverse the direction. This one, like the original Ransome machines, differs mainly in that rather than a sliding D-valve style, it uses a rotary valve thats more like an oscillator or a Corliss valve.

Should be a fun build. Since I'm in the middle of the Sabino model, I wont be getting to actually building this model till later in the year, but I would not be surprised if others build it before I can start. As with any unbuilt model plan, there may be errors or omissions in the drawings I make - I'll make every effort to correct and/or add to the plan as needed and put the corrections up on the thread. My guess is I'll have the plan files ready in about a week or so...
Chris

cnr6400 · « **Reply #48 on:** April 06, 2022, 02:02:36 AM »

Don't forget lots of gauze, peroxide, and bandages in a first aid kit on the BOM on the plans ( for accidental appendage amputations in "felling" mode.)

(or include plans for carved wooden replacement fingers!)

crueby · « **Reply #49 on:** April 06, 2022, 02:09:59 AM »

Quote from: cnr6400 on April 06, 2022, 02:02:36 AM

Don't forget lots of gauze, peroxide, and bandages in a first aid kit on the BOM on the plans ( for accidental appendage amputations in "felling" mode.)

(or include plans for carved wooden replacement fingers!)

Should I rename it the Telemarketer Feller Saw?!?!

propforward · « **Reply #50 on:** April 06, 2022, 02:15:35 AM »

Nice work on the model Chris. Very decent of you to make the drawings freely available.

crueby · « **Reply #51 on:** April 06, 2022, 02:45:55 AM »

Quote from: propforward on April 06, 2022, 02:15:35 AM

Nice work on the model Chris. Very decent of you to make the drawings freely available.

I've gotten a lot from this site and the people here, gotta give some back!

Jasonb · « **Reply #52 on:** April 06, 2022, 07:47:24 AM »

looking good Chris, I think I like the look of the feller over the cross-cut but won't be getting it anywhere near my Bonsai collection.

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Author Topic: Model Engineer Magazine - old issues? (Read 4427 times)