Author Topic: 4-Stroke Valve Event Diagram  (Read 795 times)

Offline RReid

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4-Stroke Valve Event Diagram
« on: February 03, 2022, 09:33:10 PM »
Inspired by the valve event diagrams shown by Mike (Vixen) in this thread (https://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,10708.60.html),
I've drawn up my own using Alibre, cribbing Mike's layout shamelessly. Since this would be easily editable for other Alibre users, I thought I would post the file here. I've also attached the files in .DXF and .DWG formats; whether these can be made editable by users of other packages I don't know.

For Alibre folks:
To edit the angular values, click on "Diagram" in the Design Tree to the left; select "Activate 2D Sketch" from the toolbar; once the sketch window opens you can double click on the values and change as desired. When done click "Deactivate Sketch".

To edit the Title Block entries simply double click on any of the text without entering the sketch mode, and make changes as desired.

« Last Edit: February 06, 2022, 03:53:49 PM by RReid »
Regards,
Ron

Offline fumopuc

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Re: 4-Stroke Valve Event Diagram
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2022, 06:22:29 AM »
Hi Ron, thanks for this post here.
And also thanks to Mike (Vixen) for the idea to show it this way.
The other day I have done a similar thing with Fusion 360.


For Fusion folks.
The disk and the timing bars are a 3D model.
Adjustment will be done in the one and only sketch of the model.
Any kind of written explanation, angle dimension and other comments will be done in the drawing section.
The 3D model is attached.
Drawings in Fusion can be exported by PDF only, that does makes no sense to post it here, only a picture of a sample drawing below.
So if you load the model and the relevant adjustment in the sketch is done, the drawing with dimensioning and comments has to be made individually.
Kind Regards
Achim

Offline AVTUR

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Re: 4-Stroke Valve Event Diagram
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2022, 11:30:30 AM »
Hi Ron, thanks for this post here.
And also thanks to Mike (Vixen) for the idea to show it this way.
The other day I have done a similar thing with Fusion 360.


For Fusion folks.
........
Drawings in Fusion can be exported by PDF only, that does makes no sense to post it here, only a picture of a sample drawing below.
So if you load the model and the relevant adjustment in the sketch is done, the drawing with dimensioning and comments has to be made individually.

I use Fusion360 and have got annoyed with drawings being export to a .pdf file. This, generally, is becoming quite common as an only option.

Keep the .pdf file as the master and take a screen shot of it. This can then be pasted into a suitable file, I use paint, as a .jpg and can be annoted etc as a working drawing.

AVTUR
There is no such thing as a stupid question.

Offline Swarf Maker

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Re: 4-Stroke Valve Event Diagram
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2022, 12:11:36 PM »
Can I recommend that you download a copy of 'Pixillion' from NCH Software?  There is a free to use version (for non-commercial use) of this comprehensive image conversion software that will take the pdf file and convert it directly to most other graphic formats.  Much easier and more accurate than using screen-grab applications.
https://www.nchsoftware.com/imageconverter/index.html
It also seems to be available as a Microsoft app.
https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/p/pixillion-image-file-converter-free/9n39jbn11hx8#activetab=pivot:overviewtab

Offline RReid

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Re: 4-Stroke Valve Event Diagram
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2022, 04:03:49 PM »
Thank you, Achim. Your version looks good. :ThumbsUp:

Thanks for the interest, Avtur.

Thank you for the suggestion, Swarfmaker. Alibre will export to PDF or to JPG, in addition to DXF and DWG, so I don't need Pixillion for this, but I've downloaded it anyway as it looks like a useful tool.

Also I didn't properly thank Vixen. Thanks for the idea and teachings Mike!
Regards,
Ron

Offline Vixen

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Re: 4-Stroke Valve Event Diagram
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2022, 04:40:32 PM »
Ron, Achim and others

Are we going to make a common Data Base to store all this Valve/ Sleeve Event data, so that we can all share and compare?
If it is a Data Base, it should be without comments or chit chat.

Mike

It is the journey that matters, not the destination

Oh! sod the journey, lets hit the bar and pool instead.

Offline RReid

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Re: 4-Stroke Valve Event Diagram
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2022, 05:55:03 PM »
I think that's an excellent idea, Mike.
Regards,
Ron

Offline Dan Rowe

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Re: 4-Stroke Valve Event Diagram
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2022, 06:09:56 PM »
The only way I see to keep the chit chat off a thread is to lock it but that makes adding new data difficult. A simple work around is to have the member who starts the thread to maintain the database in the first post by editing it with any new info.

I do exactly this on the minature nut and bolt thread:
https://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,628.0.html

Cheers Dan
ShaylocoDan

Offline Admiral_dk

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Re: 4-Stroke Valve Event Diagram
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2022, 10:24:55 PM »
I LOVE your idea Mike  :Love:

- but
Quote
If it is a Data Base, it should be without comments or chit chat.
- can we agree that a few comment to explain the not obvious (if any) can be allowed, or ...?

I do see one caveat in your otherwise great graphs - as the circle represents 720 degrees, but shown in 360 - I have already seen some problems among those shared the last two days, as the CAD program only knows it as 360 degrees and I feel that at least some shown here, are meant to be doubled, to give the correct result when read ....

Best wishes

Per

Offline RReid

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Re: 4-Stroke Valve Event Diagram
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2022, 03:05:32 PM »
Hi Per. Thanks for your thoughtful comments. Just a few comments of my own relative to your concerns about the diagrams as drawn, and my diagrams in particular.

Typically "cam card" information is given in terms of crankshaft rotation. This convention is reasonable because I think the information is mostly directed at an end user who would be using a crankshaft mounted degree wheel to convert the data into a mechanical setting.

From and engineering design perspective, I find the format as presented by Mike to be more logical and useful. It presents the relevant angular data for both the crankshaft and the camshaft over the course of the full four-stroke cycle, with the cam events themselves shown in terms of cam rotation directly. I would think (but don't claim to know) that the folks who write the "cam cards" start with these numbers and do the 2x math.

For my diagrams, the outer circle is labeled (via notation) as 720 degrees, with two TDC and two BDC points clearly labeled 180 (really 360 on that scale) degrees apart. The inner circle represents 360 degrees, with 5 degree markings, and labeling at the first 10 and 45 degree marks to indicate the pattern.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2022, 03:46:47 PM by RReid »
Regards,
Ron

Offline petertha

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Re: 4-Stroke Valve Event Diagram
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2022, 04:43:23 PM »
Just some food for thought. I went through a similar graphical exercise comparing timing for specific (methanol glow 4S) engines in this post. This lends itself to displaying multiple engines simultaneously. Happens to be Excel but any spreadsheet tool lends itself to this quite conveniently - add, subtract, hide, show engines to suite. I didn't label the X-axis but its obviously 2 rotations of crankshaft = 720-deg to encompass the entire timing events. It would be easy enough to put a 0-360 scale on the upper X-axis so both scales are shown.  I've also removed the engine legend but that can be displayed. Not taking anything away from the circular representation, it has utility in physically setting timing from what I can see. But harder to visualize how engine A compares to engine B etc.

https://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,10394.msg237670.html#msg237670

Offline Admiral_dk

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Re: 4-Stroke Valve Event Diagram
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2022, 04:49:00 PM »
It is just meant as food for thought .....
A note on the graph reminding people that - 'This represents the Cam (or other device) timing - to get Crank position, please multiply by two' - or similar.

Petertha - I will agree that you representation has its merits  :ThumbsUp:

Per

Offline RReid

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Re: 4-Stroke Valve Event Diagram
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2022, 08:42:26 PM »
With respect to having a collection of this data in one location, I'm considering starting a Topic along the lines suggested by Dan Rowe for that purpose. This wouldn't be a true database by any means, just a collection of (presumably) image files showing the data.

What I am imagining is setting up a few separate threads at the top of a new Topic into which the image files could be placed as attachments. The separate threads would help organization by being "categories". For example, there could be one for "Supercharged" and one for "Normally Aspirated". Maybe another thread could hold just templates like the ones posted earlier in this thread. To populate the threads, folks could PM their files to me, and I, as the thread "owner" would "modify" the thread to insert them.

Consider this a proposal. Not having ever done something like this, it may not be the best way. If it is of limited interest it may not be worth the effort, and that is OK too. I will wait for feedback before doing anything.
Regards,
Ron

Offline steamer

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Re: 4-Stroke Valve Event Diagram
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2022, 10:31:26 PM »
With respect to having a collection of this data in one location, I'm considering starting a Topic along the lines suggested by Dan Rowe for that purpose. This wouldn't be a true database by any means, just a collection of (presumably) image files showing the data.

What I am imagining is setting up a few separate threads at the top of a new Topic into which the image files could be placed as attachments. The separate threads would help organization by being "categories". For example, there could be one for "Supercharged" and one for "Normally Aspirated". Maybe another thread could hold just templates like the ones posted earlier in this thread. To populate the threads, folks could PM their files to me, and I, as the thread "owner" would "modify" the thread to insert them.

Consider this a proposal. Not having ever done something like this, it may not be the best way. If it is of limited interest it may not be worth the effort, and that is OK too. I will wait for feedback before doing anything.

Sounds like a great idea!    Glad to help if I can
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Damned ijjit!

Offline RReid

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Re: 4-Stroke Valve Event Diagram
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2022, 03:59:59 PM »
Quote
It is just meant as food for thought .....
A note on the graph reminding people that - 'This represents the Cam (or other device) timing - to get Crank position, please multiply by two' - or similar.
Your point is well taken, Per. I've added such a note to my templates.

Petertha - I like your spreadsheet form as well. I thought of using Excel at first, but found that much of my Excel fluency has been lost through lack of use since retirement!
Regards,
Ron