Author Topic: Bristol Hercules sleeve valve radial engine plans drawings  (Read 15233 times)

Offline lohring

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Re: Bristol Hercules sleeve valve radial engine plans drawings
« Reply #60 on: January 26, 2022, 04:39:10 PM »
My copy of Ricardo's book is the 4th edition reprinted in 1958.  I bought it when I was in high school about that time .  It is an extremely readable book with surprising details on engine basics even a high school student can understand.  The chapter on sleeve valves has a lot more information on design.  Over the years I laid out several sleeve valve designs on manual drafting machines.  The operation and timing does become apparent if you actually do that.  The high performance version will have all common ports not just one pair.  This results in alternate intake and exhaust ports giving a plumbing issue. 

I lost interest in sleeve valve four strokes years ago but did design a sleeve valve two stroke.  These days I think the opposed piston two stroke is more promising, but IC engines, especially in the smaller sizes, are dying.  They will continue to be interesting, like steam engines and models of piston radials, to hobbyists as memorials to the past.


Lohring Miller

Offline MDRBM

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Re: Bristol Hercules sleeve valve radial engine plans drawings
« Reply #61 on: January 26, 2022, 08:25:29 PM »
Sleeve valve engines hold a particular fascination for me and I have aspirations of making my own sleeve valve engine... probably not a good idea, but probably not going to stop me. I did wonder if full drawings were available for the Bristol engines, but it'd seem not.

The choice of materials was extremely critical from reading the book about Fedden, and from reading online posts elsewhere, oil type is essential for their good running.
 
I'm a supporter of Hawker Typhoon Preservation group mainly because of their intention to restore and use the Napier Sabre and I can't wait to hear it running.

Online Vixen

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Re: Bristol Hercules sleeve valve radial engine plans drawings
« Reply #62 on: January 27, 2022, 01:38:07 PM »
................
For the model sleeve valve engine, the scaled down supercharger will not actually produce any boost; unless you run it at jet engine speeds. The model engine effectively becomes a normally aspirated engine, and the valve events need to change to reflect this. The 'hot' port (valve) timing of a racing engine would be undesirable. Likewise the port (valve) timing associated with a supercharged engine, operating at altitude would not be ideal either. For a well mannered and reliable normally aspirated model engine, running on the bench, a 'milder' port timing; with shorter opening times and lower overlap are called for............................

Mike

The above quote spells out my views on the valve event timing that will provide for a smooth running and well mannered model sleeve valve engine. Not the wild 'spicy' timing of a racing or supercharged engine, but a less aggressive, 'milder' set of valve timing events.

So, let me convert those descriptive names into numbers and charts. From these, we can directly compare some actual data and make a considered judgement; which can then lead onto the design work and drawings.

I have done an extensive trawl of the net and have found manufactures data on a number of engines. The valve event timing has been converted into a common format to ease comparisons. The valve event diagrams conveniently display the four Otto Cycle strokes (suck, squeeze, bang, blow) as one 360* rotation of the Sleeve crank, The crankshaft would have completed two complete revolutions during this time.

Note: most published valve (port) timing information give the opening and closing angles with respect to crankshaft rotation. The diagrams I have presented show the port timing wrt. the Sleeve Crank or Camshaft angle. That's crankshaft angle divided by two.

Some Sleeve Valve engine port timing diagrams


The first diagram is for the Napier Sabre, supercharged, sleeve valve, in-line engine. This was one of the last sleeve valve engines designed, a very powerful engine. You will see, the valve event display all the characteristics associated with a highly supercharged, high performance engine. The inlet and exhaust ports (valves) are open for a very long period and there is considerable port (valve) overlap for scavenging blow through. The result would be a high revving engine with a narrow power band, Ideal suited to a powerful aircraft engine, which generally operate at a constant cruising speed except during the take off and climb.






The next diagram is for the Bristol Hercules, supercharged, sleeve valve, radial engine. This engine was produced in great numbers with a reputation for both power and reliability. It also has all the characteristics associated with a highly supercharged high performance engine. However the valve events are only slightly less aggressive when compared to the Napier Sabre.






Here is the port timing diagram for a normally aspirated sleeve valve engine. It is the work of Joachim Steinke from Germany. The port timing is noticeably less aggressive than the two supercharged engines above. The port opening times are much shorter as is the reduced port overlap duration. This engine is reported to start easily and run well.






This diagram is for the Barr and Stroud, normally aspirated, single cylinder motor cycle engine. The port events are significantly different to the two high performance, supercharged, engines above. In this engine, both the exhaust and inlet ports (valves) remain open for a much shorter duration and the port (valve) overlap is virtually non-existent. This 'milder' state of tuning would have given the Barr and Stroud engine the highly desirable characteristics of a wider power-band and a well mannered engine response from tick over to full power.







This diagram shows the port timing I am proposing to use on my single cylinder test rig. You can see the port timing is noticeably less aggressive than the two supercharged engines above. The port opening times are much shorter and the port overlap duration (20 degrees) is also reduced but not to the extent of the Barr and Stroud.





Some Poppet valve timings for comparison

For comparison, here is the valve events diagram for the highly supercharged (2.3 bar) 1939 Mercedes Benz W165 Grand Prix racing engine. The inlet and exhaust ports (valves) are open for a very long period and there is considerable port (valve) overlap for scavenging blow through. However , the designers favored a longer inlet period to that of the exhaust. The result was a high revving engine with a narrow power band, Ideal suited to a powerful racing machine, which had the benefit of a 5 speed gearbox.







This diagram is presented by way of a bench mark. This diagram is for the valve events used in many of Edgar Westbury's, normally aspirated, poppet valve, engines. His engines were noted for their good behavior and ease of starting and have been copied into the design of many other miniature engines. The valve events may also considered to be 'mild', compared to the supercharged engines. The valve overlap period is slightly wider than the Barr and Stoud but still less than half that of the supercharged engines.






Here is the valve timing diagram for a Briggs and Stratton lawn mower engine. Similar valve events to those of the Barr and Stroud engine of the 1920's; but still being sold 100 years later, little has changed. It has similar short duration valve openings and next to no overlap






This is the valve timing used by the normally aspirated, quarter scale, Hodgson radial engines. This timing diagram was evolved following extensive testing of several different camshaft designs, which in the end resulted in a smooth running well mannered engine. The valve event timing is another 'mild' camshaft timing when compared to the 'spicy' timings used by most supercharged engines (whether sleeve valve or poppet valve). The valve open durations are relatively short and the overlap duration is very short, less than a quarter of the supercharged engines. Note the asymmetric timing of the EO and IC events, which favor a slightly longer Exhaust duration.






Although described as an industrial engine, I have used the Honda GX35 in all of my 1/6 scale model tanks (petrol powered Panzers). The piston diameter is 35mm which coincides with the model Hercules' piston diameter. The idle speed of the GX35 is a fast 3,000 RPM above that, it performs smoothly and powerfully. The high idle speed may be due to the unusually late inlet valve timing on what is intended as an industrial engine. However, Honda usually know what they are doing.






 
I will leave you to decide the characteristics you would prefer to have for your model engine. I believe that somewhere between the Barr and Stroud and Westbury would be most desirable and will progress my designs accordingly. If all fails, the sleeve ports can always be reworked to open up the ports towards the larger size and shape of the supercharged engine.

So there, at last, is some real data for you all to digest and think about 

Mike   :thinking: :thinking: :thinking:
« Last Edit: March 15, 2024, 11:46:15 PM by Vixen »
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Offline dieselpilot

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Re: Bristol Hercules sleeve valve radial engine plans drawings
« Reply #63 on: January 27, 2022, 02:02:15 PM »
Any of those will work just fine. Less overlap might be a little easier to start and use less fuel. You have to take into account the era in which the timings were used. Minimal overlap or even IVO after TDC came from a time when flow in an engine was not well understood. The timing of the Napier represents modern practice. not just in sleeve valves. Production model engines have even more overlap and start and run just fine.

Valve timing, in my opinion, is the last of the worries for a model engine. Unless you are trying to hit specific performance figures, anything will result in an engine which runs. At relatively low pistons speeds it hardly makes a difference anyhow.

Offline Laurentic

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Re: Bristol Hercules sleeve valve radial engine plans drawings
« Reply #64 on: January 27, 2022, 02:17:37 PM »
Interest comparisons Mike, as you say, something to ponder. 

The (relatively) short inlet open time on the Barr & Stroud surprised me, significantly less than Westbury.

Do tell what valve timings you settle on eventually,

Chris.  :thinking: :headscratch: :thinking:   !!!

Offline Admiral_dk

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Re: Bristol Hercules sleeve valve radial engine plans drawings
« Reply #65 on: January 27, 2022, 04:57:42 PM »
I will agree with Greg about the opening of the Inlet Valve being too late on the Barr and Stroud. That said - I also agree that you can always open the ports more - putting it back on is another matter  :LittleDevil:

Looking farward to follow your experiments Mike  :cheers:

Per

Offline AVTUR

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Re: Bristol Hercules sleeve valve radial engine plans drawings
« Reply #66 on: January 27, 2022, 05:52:29 PM »
The Barr & Stroud timing is typical of an immediate post WW1 engine. I have a book written by C Sylvester, some time technical instructor at Siddeley-Deasy, in 1919 for mechanics in the RAF & RNAS. His valve timing diagrams have the inlet valve opening at or very shortly AFTER TBC and closing at BDC. The exhaust valve opened at BDC, although he does say there is debate whether it should open earlier, and closed at TBC.

By the mid 1920s the importance of valve overlap, early opening of the exhaust valve and late closing of the inlet valve was well understood. Westbury's timing is certainly soft. I have the feeling that the reason for him not changing to anything else was that it worked, particularly the mechanical dynamics.

Personally I don't think large valve overlap leads to starting difficulties. My little 1950s 350cc four stroke motorcycle is a very easy starter, first or second kick, cold or hot, and its overlap is 66 degrees. I have to admit that you can feel the exhaust kick-in at about 48mph in top.

I chatted to a friend at lunch today about your engine and timing questions. He thought the ideal would be those of a four stroke lawn mower engine (he likes lawn mower engines!).

AVTUR
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Offline AVTUR

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Re: Bristol Hercules sleeve valve radial engine plans drawings
« Reply #67 on: January 27, 2022, 06:59:28 PM »
TBC should read TDC. Sorry.

TBC is something very different from an earlier life (thermal barrier coating).

AVTUR
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Online Vixen

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Re: Bristol Hercules sleeve valve radial engine plans drawings
« Reply #68 on: January 27, 2022, 09:34:43 PM »

.........
I chatted to a friend at lunch today about your engine and timing questions. He thought the ideal would be those of a four stroke lawn mower engine (he likes lawn mower engines!).

AVTUR

AVTUR

I have added your friends suggestion of a four-stroke lawn mower engine. A Briggs and Stratton has been added to the list shown in Reply #62 above.  The Briggs and Stratton design must date back 100 years to the 1920's but still sells well today. It's very similar to the Barr and Stoud; short valve opening periods and virtually no overlap.

Mike
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Offline steamer

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Re: Bristol Hercules sleeve valve radial engine plans drawings
« Reply #69 on: January 28, 2022, 01:25:12 AM »
Thanks Mike!   GREAT read!

Westbury 917 timing?

Dave
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Offline cnr6400

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Re: Bristol Hercules sleeve valve radial engine plans drawings
« Reply #70 on: January 28, 2022, 02:26:52 AM »
I'll be spending some time with those valve timing diagrams Mike! My kind of entertainment.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: Thanks!  :cheers:
"I've cut that stock three times, and it's still too short!"

Online Vixen

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Re: Bristol Hercules sleeve valve radial engine plans drawings
« Reply #71 on: January 28, 2022, 06:45:13 AM »
Thanks Mike!   GREAT read!

Westbury 917 timing?

Dave

Na. Surely it's got to be  Briggs and Stratton For the 917 ???  :Jester:
« Last Edit: January 28, 2022, 06:54:42 AM by Vixen »
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Offline steamer

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Re: Bristol Hercules sleeve valve radial engine plans drawings
« Reply #72 on: January 28, 2022, 10:34:47 PM »
Thanks Mike!   GREAT read!

Westbury 917 timing?

Dave

Na. Surely it's got to be  Briggs and Stratton For the 917 ???  :Jester:
If I get all 12 running like a Briggs  I'll be happy!
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Online Vixen

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Re: Bristol Hercules sleeve valve radial engine plans drawings
« Reply #73 on: January 31, 2022, 03:23:43 PM »
I've just added the Mercedes Benz W165 Valve event diagram to the list shown in Reply #62 above.

I've been looking through the few drawings which came with the Hercules engine and found this interesting part. I would welcome suggestions of how one would machine the spherical recess within Ball Housing to fit the bronze ball.  :thinking: :thinking:



Cheers

Mike
« Last Edit: January 31, 2022, 03:26:45 PM by Vixen »
It is the journey that matters, not the destination

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Offline Admiral_dk

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Re: Bristol Hercules sleeve valve radial engine plans drawings
« Reply #74 on: January 31, 2022, 07:23:19 PM »
Some Ball turning attachments can do inside turning too .... but that is as close as I can bend my mind, to figure any probable way  :thinking:

Hope that somebody can take it further  :cheers:

Per

 

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