Author Topic: Bristol Hercules sleeve valve radial engine plans drawings  (Read 15997 times)

Offline Admiral_dk

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3834
  • Søften - Denmark
Re: Bristol Hercules sleeve valve radial engine plans drawings
« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2022, 01:34:07 PM »
What a challenge - even just to assemble it correctly, though I expect that being methodical and take your time should take care of that bit ....

Though it's not guaranteed - would the single row not have many identical parts  :thinking:

So basically here (RR), is another area where 'The Clipboard People' (Brother in Laws term) have killed all initiative to do well  :Mad: - or put another way - it's usually great to have some academia as part of the Team, but NEVER in charge of the Team  :cussing:       - to be 'Onest, it depends on the person in charge.

Why - were they afraid that your crew would spill Company Secrets or be inside certain perimeters ?
You would think that a workable limit could be established ....

I REALLY hope that you succeed Mike !!!!

Per
« Last Edit: January 23, 2022, 01:52:26 PM by Admiral_dk »

Offline AVTUR

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 249
  • West of England
Re: Bristol Hercules sleeve valve radial engine plans drawings
« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2022, 02:46:45 PM »
Fedden, like Derby, doubled the power output by upping the suppercharger boost pressure. This could only be done by increasing the octane rating of the petrol. The Germans did not have the technology to produce very high octane fuel, only the Americans did, so their piston aircraft engines were heavier for the same power. This forced them to develop, prematurely, the jet engine. The actual compression ratio of the Hercules remained the same throughout its production life.

Most of the parts in the two banks are the same.

No aircraft engine manufacture would release copies of drawings except to recognised contractors. They are very freightened of "cowboy" parts being used in flying engines. That is why engines are returned to the manufacture at the start of scrapping an old airliner (a local industry).

AVTUR
There is no such thing as a stupid question.

Offline Admiral_dk

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3834
  • Søften - Denmark
Re: Bristol Hercules sleeve valve radial engine plans drawings
« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2022, 05:49:24 PM »
Quote
No aircraft engine manufacture would release copies of drawings except to recognised contractors. They are very freightened of "cowboy" parts being used in flying engines. That is why engines are returned to the manufacture at the start of scrapping an old airliner (a local industry).

Oh - I do get that, but here we are talking about engines of a bygone era .... or do they fear that someone will make fake parts, to keep very old engines flying ?
If that is the case - I shouldn't be so surprised ...!...
In my current job, we have customers Worldwide that asks for NOS Tubes (New Old Stock, for the few that doesn't know). As these are absolutely non-existent for the types used in a Guitar Amp (unless they are crap) - and I should mention that there are millions of NOS Tubes for many other applications around ....
There's an Industry of Fakers  :stir: , that uses what has a very similar appearance and do what needs to be done make them look totally identical to the originals  :rant:  :wallbang:  and just to make it worse - a big bunch of ignorant Journalists and Influencer, that keeps perpetuating the idea of using NOS Tubes as the only good solution  :facepalm:

So I can see the incentive if the money offered is big enough .... on the other hand I thought that you only are allowed to use certified parts of known history in any Airplane for the same reason ....

I have seen old Warbirds that are only taxiing on the runway for that reason (YouTube) - they have an running engine, but some of the parts are not certified.

Per
« Last Edit: January 23, 2022, 05:53:21 PM by Admiral_dk »

Offline Jo

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15326
  • Hampshire, england.
Re: Bristol Hercules sleeve valve radial engine plans drawings
« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2022, 07:01:42 PM »
Just had a reply back from Farnborough Museum: No they don't have any. Their suggestion was try Brooklands. They are also going to ask their librarian to see if they have any ideas (when they come back in).

Jo
Enjoyment is more important than achievement.

Offline Vixen

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3159
  • Hampshire UK
Re: Bristol Hercules sleeve valve radial engine plans drawings
« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2022, 08:22:36 PM »
Thank you Jo,

You have been very helpful. AVTUR has been able to provide some useful information as well. Thank you both. I do like our small MEM community.  :praise2:

I may have enough to sketch up a single cylinder test rig to see if a model size cylinder and sleeve valve can be manufactured. I know Feddon took a long time (and a lot of money) to sort out problems with sleeve roundness and gas sealing over the temperature range.
If the single cylinder test rig runs successfully, only 13 more cylinders need to be made. If not, there is no point in proceeding further.

Mike  :thinking:
It is the journey that matters, not the destination

Sometimes, it can be a long and winding road

Offline Craig DeShong

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1294
  • Raleigh, NC. USA
Re: Bristol Hercules sleeve valve radial engine plans drawings
« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2022, 10:00:02 PM »
There was a time, some years ago, when I contemplated making a sleeve valve ‘something’.  It will be interesting to see what you come up with Mike.  I’ll definitely stay tuned.
Craig
The destination motivates us toward excellence, the journey entertains us, and along the way we meet so many interesting people.

Offline Vixen

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3159
  • Hampshire UK
Re: Bristol Hercules sleeve valve radial engine plans drawings
« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2022, 11:06:53 PM »
Hello Craig

The question has been asked several times on the forum "Has anyone built a sleeve valve engine that actually runs?".

The silence was deafening. That's why a single cylinder test rig is required first. The test rig could/ will be made from the available hardware. If I succeed in getting the single cylinder test rig to run successfully, only 13 additional cylinders need to be made. If not, there is no point in proceeding further.

Some of the problems Feddon had to face were; sleeve ovality after the machining ops. Leakage between sleeve and cylinder due to differential expansion and pick up (cold welding?) between the steel sleeve and the aluminum cylinder.

So, what could possibly go wrong?  :help:

Mike
It is the journey that matters, not the destination

Sometimes, it can be a long and winding road

Offline cnr6400

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2918
Re: Bristol Hercules sleeve valve radial engine plans drawings
« Reply #22 on: January 24, 2022, 02:01:10 AM »
Knight in the USA built cars with sleeve valve engines. I worked on one built in the early 1930's  (now an antique, but old back then) in my young and foolish days. The owner complaint was high oil consumption, about a quart every 60 miles. Took it apart, found all sorts of odd wear and old repairs some good some bad, but the oil consumption was caused by burnt carbonized oil buildup between the sleeves and cylinders on the exhaust side. This caused high wear on the intake side, which made a nice passage for oil to leak by and enter the intake ports as the sleeves rotated back and forth. The sleeve drive rollers were very badly worn. I made a lot of replacement sleeve drive parts and buttons to equalize sleeve to cylinder gaps (somewhat) and got it running better. We changed to a heavier oil as well, with a higher flash point, which reduced consumption to a quart every 200 miles or so. This was a low power car engine, maybe 50-60 HP. Mentioning this as I am pretty sure oil consumption, sleeve lubrication, and carbonized oil deposits would be big issues on 1000 HP+ high power aero engines using sleeve valves. Never worked on any to know, though. Good luck with the single cyl test bed! Look forward to seeing your progress.

PS I'd recommend nodular or spheroidal graphite cast iron for sleeves and hard steel fine finished for the cylinder od the sleeve rides on, rather than steel on alum as in the original engine you mentioned.  :cheers:
« Last Edit: January 24, 2022, 02:05:03 AM by cnr6400 »
"I've cut that stock three times, and it's still too short!"

Offline fumopuc

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3303
  • Munich, Germany, EU
Re: Bristol Hercules sleeve valve radial engine plans drawings
« Reply #23 on: January 24, 2022, 06:31:53 AM »
Hello Craig

The question has been asked several times on the forum "Has anyone built a sleeve valve engine that actually runs?".

The silence was deafening. That's why a single cylinder test rig is required first. The test rig could/ will be made from the available hardware. If I succeed in getting the single cylinder test rig to run successfully, only 13 additional cylinders need to be made. If not, there is no point in proceeding further.

Some of the problems Feddon had to face were; sleeve ovality after the machining ops. Leakage between sleeve and cylinder due to differential expansion and pick up (cold welding?) between the steel sleeve and the aluminum cylinder.

So, what could possibly go wrong?  :help:

Mike


Hi Mike, have you seen this video ?
Not a valid vimeo URLThis should be his CAD model.
[youtube1]https://youtu.be/D-IhNsalWbI[/youtube1]
« Last Edit: January 24, 2022, 06:38:21 AM by fumopuc »
Kind Regards
Achim

Offline Jo

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15326
  • Hampshire, england.
Re: Bristol Hercules sleeve valve radial engine plans drawings
« Reply #24 on: January 24, 2022, 07:46:46 AM »
I was just reading the instructions that came with my Green G30 Sleeve Valve Engine and I found this gem when describing machining one part:

If you have never made these before they can be a challenge but you would not be building this engine if you did not like challenges   :lolb:

Jo

P.S. It was a quote for making piston rings, they saw no problems with the other bits  ;)
Enjoyment is more important than achievement.

Offline Vixen

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3159
  • Hampshire UK
Re: Bristol Hercules sleeve valve radial engine plans drawings
« Reply #25 on: January 24, 2022, 02:57:05 PM »
Thanks to you all for taking such an interest in this project. Lots of little snippets of information are coming together

cnr6400.       The Knight engine had two sleeves unlike the single sleeve Bristol engines. It's very encouraging that the Knight engine would still run with such badly worn and carbon-ed up sleeves. A quart of oil every 200 miles must work out as being about 4% of the fuel mixture. Must have run like a smokey two stroke.
For the cylinder, steel running against iron sounds a good choice, less likely to pick up than steel on aluminum.

Achim,           I have not seen that engine before. The cylinder/sleeve valve arrangement are almost identical to the Bristol ones.
Do you have a link to get more details of the engine?

It looks similar, but not identical, to this one http://www.metallmodellbau.de/Sleeve_Valve_Engine.php which interestingly uses a steel sleeve in a iron cylinder liner, as does the Green G30.

Jo            Until the teachings of Trimble and Prof Chaddock became widely know, piston rings which actually sealed, were always a problem. Some people still have difficulties in making them


Cheers

Mike

It is the journey that matters, not the destination

Sometimes, it can be a long and winding road

Offline Laurentic

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 323
  • Nr Yeovil, Somerset, England
Re: Bristol Hercules sleeve valve radial engine plans drawings
« Reply #26 on: January 24, 2022, 03:02:48 PM »
Mike - good luck with making a single cylinder sleeve valve engine, I do hope you get it to run and I will be following closely if you post it up on here.  I really like the idea of the sleeve valve concept.

The Green G30 engine I built - but never got to run, could never sort the compression out - used an aluminium cylinder, with a CI liner and a E24T steel sleeve with an aluminium piston.  The line was a sliding fit into the cylinder, the liner bore was lapped to the sleeve, the sleeve was lapped to the piston, and the piston had CI rings, but still no compression and not firing using a glow plug.  At that point other things took my attention and I never followed up the no compression problem, but it still niggles and I will return to it at some point.

Jo. Did you ever get to make your G30 engine run?  If so, how did you do that?  I ask as, as well as me, a friend "Down Under" who sent me the plans could not get it to fire either.  He had the benefit of build instructions and castings, I did not have any instructions and built it from bar stock not castings.

It is interesting that Ageless engines could not get their 9 cylinder sleeve valve engine to run, but I thought they had got a single cylinder trial version to run......??

Achim.  At least your video's give out that there is some hope out there, lurking!

Chris.  :shrug:
« Last Edit: January 24, 2022, 03:06:10 PM by Laurentic »

Offline Vixen

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3159
  • Hampshire UK
Re: Bristol Hercules sleeve valve radial engine plans drawings
« Reply #27 on: January 24, 2022, 03:17:55 PM »

It is interesting that Ageless engines could not get their 9 cylinder sleeve valve engine to run, but I thought they had got a single cylinder trial version to run......??

Chris.  :shrug:

Lee at Ageless does not understand why his 14 cylinder (not 9) Hercules look-a-like will not run. He did get the single cylinder test rig to run. There is a video of it running on his website. You may have to dig down to find it.

Have you tried a soapy water bubble test, to look for any obvious external air leaks, on your G30

Mike
It is the journey that matters, not the destination

Sometimes, it can be a long and winding road

Offline RReid

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1729
  • Northern California
Re: Bristol Hercules sleeve valve radial engine plans drawings
« Reply #28 on: January 24, 2022, 03:22:37 PM »
This discussion sent me looking for more background on sleeve valve engines in general and the Bristols in particular. I came across this brief, but very good overview written by Dennis Simanaitis, who was for a number of years the Engineering Editor for Road & Track magazine in the US. It focuses on the Hercules, but also mentions other engines, including the Knight. Also a nice tidbit about grinding the sleeves with a dull wheel.
https://simanaitissays.com/2015/08/21/sleeve-valves-aloft/
« Last Edit: January 24, 2022, 03:27:21 PM by RReid »
Regards,
Ron

Offline Vixen

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3159
  • Hampshire UK
Re: Bristol Hercules sleeve valve radial engine plans drawings
« Reply #29 on: January 24, 2022, 03:42:02 PM »
Thanks Ron,

I sounds like that dull wheel or hone may have acted like a roller tube expander and 'worked' the sleeve into roundness against the support mandrel. Apparently they could 'work' a 6 thou out of round sleeve to better than 1 thou out of round.

Mike
It is the journey that matters, not the destination

Sometimes, it can be a long and winding road

 

SimplePortal 2.3.5 © 2008-2012, SimplePortal