Author Topic: Precision and Rigid CNC milling machine  (Read 613 times)

Offline xzsawq21

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Precision and Rigid CNC milling machine
« on: November 25, 2021, 09:14:55 AM »
I wanted to buy a WABECO F1210HS ISO30 and spend $7000 for the machine but many people have reported that the head is made of Aluminum and the machine is not rigid.
I want the CNC machine to make small things but for small or medium production. (not for hobby)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrAxIoDPiTE&list=WL&index=2&t=286s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNO-tv556Co

What do you think about the OPTImill MH 25V or other milling machines?

OPTImill MH 25V, the price is $4000:
https://www.stuermer-machines.com/me...h-25v-3338155/

The spindle speed of the OPTImill MH 25V is 200 to 4000 RPM so it's not perfect for the end mills with a diameter smaller than 10mm (3mm to 6mm) but sometimes the speed should be higher than 4000RPM.

You see the cutting speed etc for the OPTImill MH 25V at page 32 and 33 of the below document:
https://www.cnc-shop.mobasi.com/down...eng-manual.pdf





But how much is the milling machine accurate? I should make small things within +/- 0.025mm accuracy. but in my general work it can be +/- 0.1mm or +/- 0.05mm.

It's interesting Optimum hasn't reported the Runout or table flatness of the machines, WABECO reported anything and I'm pretty sure they have used several Japanese parts in their productions and they reply all your questions! But Optimum is not responsible.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2021, 05:33:12 PM by xzsawq21 »

Offline Jasonb

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Re: Precision and Rigid milling machine
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2021, 09:34:43 AM »
The Wabeco is likely to be the more accurately built of the two machines but as it is of much lighter construction ( almost half the weight) than the Opti you will not be able to take as large a cut with it. As you want these machines to earn you money the Wabeco will make your profits less or your selling price a lot higher as it could take twice as long to machine a component due to the smaller metal removal rate.

It's down to you to work out the economics as to sale price vs accuracy

Offline jadge

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Re: Precision and Rigid milling machine
« Reply #2 on: November 25, 2021, 09:43:48 AM »
If you want machine tools for commercial work you need to stop messing about with hobby machines and starting looking at industrial machines. They will have the power, rigidity and accuracy to make consistent parts over production runs. Unless you have significant design or creative input into the parts which out weighs the machining cost you will struggle to make money machining on small machines.

Andrew

Offline Jo

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Re: Precision and Rigid milling machine
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2021, 09:44:50 AM »
We have asked you repeatedly to introduce yourself xzsawq21 you still have not done this.

On the previous thread about "Precision Lathes" the members tried to help you but you did not engage in their responses. I see it as pointless engaging you on this thread based on our previous experience.

Jo



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Offline xzsawq21

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Re: Precision and Rigid milling machine
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2021, 10:38:53 AM »
If you want machine tools for commercial work you need to stop messing about with hobby machines and starting looking at industrial machines. They will have the power, rigidity and accuracy to make consistent parts over production runs.
Do you know a suitable industrial milling machine? I don't want a large machine because our shop is not big. we are at the first step in our business.

Offline jadge

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Re: Precision and Rigid milling machine
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2021, 12:03:28 PM »
For manual milling I'd look at Bridgeport Series I, or one of the clones. Depending on production quantities a CNC mill might be better, in which case I be looking at one of the smaller Haas mills. Neither are big machines, or high end, but should meet your requirements.

On average I make about 20% of my income from machining, primarily on industrial machines, although my CNC mill is high end hobby. But I operate in a niche area and do not attempt to compete with the professional machine shops in my area. Most of what I make are onesies and twosies where I have designed the parts. My clients often need a part or a jig/fixture without knowing the exact details. So I help specify, brainstorm the design and create CAD models and drawings. The machining is an add on as I've designed the parts and can respond quicker than most machine shops. The key is that clients are paying for my engineering skills, machining is an add on. Making money from general machining to print is more difficult.

Andrew

Offline Jasonb

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Re: Precision and Rigid milling machine
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2021, 12:27:07 PM »
As Andrew says and I said in your other thread in this day and age for production and batch work CNC is likely to be the best way to go. Haas Mini mill or a Syil X7 or if space is at a premium the Haas compact will fit through a standard doorway but is a bit more expensive.

They will cost more initially but you will be able to produce parts faster and with good repeatability so volume of sales should be higher and capital outlay recovered.

Even the lower end hobby CNC machines are more solidly constructed than similar sized milling machines, as an example my KX3 mill is about the same size as the Wabeco yet weighs twice as much as the castings are far more substantial to damp out vibration and make the machine more rigid, Andrews machine will be more substantial again being a bit higher up the ladder. Some owners even put them to use for production work but for the difference in current cost between a KX3 and a Haas I would go with the Haas or Syil with a tool changer if I wanted to earn money with them..

Insert tool holders made on a KX3

Offline simplyloco

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Re: Precision and Rigid milling machine
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2021, 12:45:08 PM »
The Wabeco is likely to be the more accurately built of the two machines but as it is of much lighter construction ( almost half the weight) than the Opti you will not be able to take as large a cut with it. As you want these machines to earn you money the Wabeco will make your profits less or your selling price a lot higher as it could take twice as long to machine a component due to the smaller metal removal rate.

It's down to you to work out the economics as to sale price vs accuracy

Agreed. Jason. When I was looking after a sub-contract machine shop in London the maxim was "If it isn't coming off blue then it isn't making any money!"
John

Offline Dan Rowe

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Re: Precision and Rigid milling machine
« Reply #8 on: November 25, 2021, 01:46:05 PM »
When I was looking after a sub-contract machine shop in London the maxim was "If it isn't coming off blue then it isn't making any money!"

John, I have heard a similar statement from somewhere and when I worked on ships we always had a heavy industrial lathe. If I was in a hurry and I often was I would use that rule slightly modified. I rarely use power feed for roughing cuts I would watch the chips and if it was blue I would back off slightly to straw as I did not want to have to resharpen the tool bit which would waste time.

I agree with Jo trying to help the OP is a complete waste of time NO BLUE CHIPS for you.

Cheers Dan
ShaylocoDan

Offline xzsawq21

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Re: Precision and Rigid milling machine
« Reply #9 on: November 25, 2021, 02:02:47 PM »
I agree with Jo trying to help the OP is a complete waste of time NO BLUE CHIPS for you.
Cheers Dan
I had a question and they have helped me a lot!  :happyreader:
I'm really glad to have find found this forum :) Users are really experienced.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2021, 04:53:41 PM by xzsawq21 »

Offline RonGinger

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Re: Precision and Rigid milling machine
« Reply #10 on: November 25, 2021, 02:07:27 PM »
There will be a wabeco mill and lathe in the Cabin Fever auction  in January. The auction will be on-line so you can bid even if you cannot attend the show. And the CF guys can ship your winnings to you.

The machines belonged to a good friend of  mine that spent the last couple years preparing for retirement. He paid off his bills, collected tools and set up a great shop. Then he dropped dead 2 weeks before his retirement date.

Offline Jo

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Re: Precision and Rigid milling machine
« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2021, 03:16:34 PM »
The machines belonged to a good friend of  mine that spent the last couple years preparing for retirement. He paid off his bills, collected tools and set up a great shop. Then he dropped dead 2 weeks before his retirement date.

That is why it is so important to retire as early as possible  ;)

Jo
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Offline john mills

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Re: Precision and Rigid CNC milling machine
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2021, 09:09:49 PM »
from what i see in the question and complaints about machines you should be looking at proper industrial machines
when you think small parts it is surprising how limited the usefull space usable can be proper tool changers and programming systems.
i have always done jobing and small batches .i had a job where the machine was small 600 by 400 table but very limited on usable space
plenty of power and 10000rpm spindle for the right work could be good but for most joking work too small the tool changer was not great as the swaf went allover the tool holders  you might need to spend more  but it will pay in the end what you think are big really arn't and can
do small work well .as far as blue chips you use the appropiate data for the tools and material .

John

Offline xzsawq21

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Re: Precision and Rigid CNC milling machine
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2021, 06:27:51 PM »
For manual milling I'd look at Bridgeport Series I, or one of the clones. Depending on production quantities a CNC mill might be better, in which case I be looking at one of the smaller Haas mills. Neither are big machines, or high end, but should meet your requirements.
Andrew

As Andrew says and I said in your other thread in this day and age for production and batch work CNC is likely to be the best way to go. Haas Mini mill or a Syil X7 or if space is at a premium the Haas compact will fit through a standard doorway but is a bit more expensive.

They will cost more initially but you will be able to produce parts faster and with good repeatability so volume of sales should be higher and capital outlay recovered.

Even the lower end hobby CNC machines are more solidly constructed than similar sized milling machines, as an example my KX3 mill is about the same size as the Wabeco yet weighs twice as much as the castings are far more substantial to damp out vibration and make the machine more rigid, Andrews machine will be more substantial again being a bit higher up the ladder. Some owners even put them to use for production work but for the difference in current cost between a KX3 and a Haas I would go with the Haas or Syil with a tool changer if I wanted to earn money with them..



If you want machine tools for commercial work you need to stop messing about with hobby machines and starting looking at industrial machines.
Andrew

I checked all the machines you suggested, they are good, rigid and accurate and ideal for my work.
I really would like to buy a used HAAS but I think I'm at the first step and I should make money, I think I can buy a HAAS later, what do you think about the TORMACH 770M? it might be good but I couldn't find any details about the Runout, Backlash,...
unfortunately the stepper motors are open-loop and the Spindle Taper is R8 but it's possible to upgrade the spindle taper to BT30 and the stepper motors with ClearPath servo motors (closed-loop),

TORMACH 770M: $8000
https://tormach.com/machines/mills/770m.html

BT30 Spindle Upgrade Kit: $2708
https://tormach.com/bundle-bt30-spindle-upgrade-kit-for-770m-mills.html

Servo motor+ Control Board: $2195+ $625
https://tormach.com/bundle-770m-servo-upgrade-kit.html
https://tormach.com/ecm1v15-replacement-kit-1100m-and-770m-39718.html

Servo motors are a good idea but is it necessary to upgrade the spindle? I know the BT30 is much better but for the cost, it's not reasonable.

Offline Jasonb

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Re: Precision and Rigid CNC milling machine
« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2021, 06:40:17 PM »
If you use the TTS (Tornach Tool System) the spindle is not really an issue as their holder stays in the spindle all the time so the ease of removing the BT30 does not come into it. It does tie you down to that type of tooling though.