Author Topic: Shay Locomotives how to find the drawings to build one  (Read 2129 times)

Offline Dan Rowe

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Shay Locomotives how to find the drawings to build one
« on: November 22, 2021, 05:48:33 PM »
Paul one of the members is trying to build S/N 2990 and is interested in locating the drawings. I will use this as an example on how to go about the process and explain the somewhat complicated Lima works drawing system.

The drawings are in two locations:
The Allen County Historical Society (ACHS)
https://www.allencountymuseum.org/staff
Contact Mr, Charles Bates
The California State Railroad Museum (CSRM)

The first step is to pick a shop number:

If the S/N is 2999 or less then it has a Drawing Card Index (DCI). Shays with a shop number less than 200, for the most part, do not have a DCI. There is a note on some of the early DCI's "see old book" this must have been the first record system and the old book is not known to exist so it is the Holy Grail of Shay research.

If the S/N is 3000 or greater then there is a Detail Index that is listed by the Order Number, not the S/N. If more than one Shay was ordered at the same time and they are the same class they will be in the same Detail Index.

I have a full set of Drawing Card Indexes in my collection and several Detail Indexes in my collection. This is what I used to help Shaylocomotive.com get the mechanical database correct.

I know that this can be confusing but I will scan the DCI for S/N 2990 and post it so I can show this stuff by example in the next post.

Cheers Dan
« Last Edit: November 22, 2021, 11:59:29 PM by Dan Rowe »
ShaylocoDan

Offline Dan Rowe

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Re: Shay Locomotives how to find the drawings to build one
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2021, 11:45:10 PM »
I have attached the Drawing Card Index for S/N 2990. Some of the DCI's are at CSRM but ACHS has a much more complete collection which is where my collection is from.

I have been at both ACHS and CSRM several times to research Shays. CSRM calls the DCI an index sheet. Physically they are 11" by 17" and are a standard form filled out by the Lima employees. I have found errors on these forms including getting the bore and stroke of the engine wrong. This is why I file all my sheets by bore and stroke than by shop number. I can look at a set of Shays and check for typos much quicker.

The DCI is a single sheet with both the front and back filled out.
The front side has the header section then listings for the boiler, tanks, and machinery or steam engine. The back side has trucks accessories and frames.

Let us start with the header section:
Locomotive No. 2990
Order Number 186
Plan No. 1852 mod
Index No 186
Repair Plates 1,3,5,7,9,12,13,18
Duplicate of No. (blank)
The next is obvious Built for, Shipped To, and Date and not engineering data.
Then the Gauge, Kind of Rail, Cylinders, and weight. All of which are on the Shay locomotive website.

Now I mentioned that for shop numbers greater than 2999 the Detail Index is needed as there is no DCI. The Detail Index (DI) is a bit hard to explain. They were first used to describe a Plan number which is a group of Shays built with the same Erecting Drawing. The Plan number is the shop number of the first Shay built with that Erecting Drawing.

Are you still with me?
It was somewhat before S/N 3000 that the Order Number was used for the number of the DI This Shay has a matching Order # and Index # which is 186.

CSRM has the whole collection in an online database. Here is a link presorted to include all the Lima drawings and forms:

https://csrm.andornot.com/en/list?q=&p=1&ps=20&name_facet=Lima+Locomotive+Works

Now we can put numbers in to search for answers.

2990 is interesting we get the side elevation or erecting drawing for Plan 2990 which is A 16215. There is not a listing for index sheet so the DCI I posted is not in the CSRM collection.

Okey try 186:
https://csrm.andornot.com/en/list?q=186&p=1&ps=20&name_facet=Lima+Locomotive+Works

Click on expand all. We are looking for 186 in the order number box and on the first page, we get 753 A 5002 Smokebox arrangement score one more drawing. The last page has A 16215 again.

To explain that drawing number format which is the last format used by Lima the first 2 digits 75 are the type of part the 3 indicates the size of the drawing, the letter is the revision or line we are interested in, the 5 indicated that it is a Shay drawing and the last three digits are the drawing number. So all those drawings that have 186 for the last bit are for rod engines.

Now let us try 1852:
https://csrm.andornot.com/en/list?q=1852&p=1&ps=20&name_facet=Lima+Locomotive+Works

Again hit the expand all and we get some drawings for Plan 1852. The only one that I see that is useful is the end supplement which is a gauge specific drawing that shows the slant of the engine to match the gauge of the loco. Well, the gauges are not listed so I will look in my database to see if I can work out which one is needed. It is not a deal breaker as we can use the steam bracket which is the upper engine mount and intake and exhaust manifold for the same info. The frame drawing is for Plan 1852 and the frame listed on the back side of the DCI is B 16734. I checked and nothing comes up in the CSRM database. I checked my database and B 16734 is at ACHS.

Now you can put any of the numbers in the CSRM database to see if that drawing is in their collection. You can only order 10 drawings from CSRM at one time but I have used a lot of friends and relatives to help get around that block.

Okey that is a start on the process... I will explain the early drawing system next.

Cheers
ShayLocoDan to anyone who does not recognize the reference shaylocodan was the old telegraph code for a Class D Shay locomotive.

ShaylocoDan

Offline Dan Rowe

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Re: Shay Locomotives how to find the drawings to build one
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2021, 12:11:39 AM »
I forgot the Repair Plate No's, these are the plate numbers in the Repair Part book that shows illustrations of the parts and gives the telegraph codes to order the parts. Each Shay was issued a Repair Parts book. There were two versions the 1908 version which was reprinted by Cass and they come up on eBay from time to time and the second one was 1921 and was reprinted by Pacific Fast Mail.

I have an original 1908 version issued to shop number 1897 in my collection.

Cheers Dan
ShaylocoDan

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Re: Shay Locomotives how to find the drawings to build one
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2021, 12:17:38 AM »
Great info Dan, finding original details of old engines is very rare, thanks for sharing the instructions. I can see more Shay models in the future...


 :ThumbsUp:

Offline Dan Rowe

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Re: Shay Locomotives how to find the drawings to build one
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2021, 12:29:25 AM »
Thanks Chris,
It took me a bit to learn all this. I started with S/N 181 the Gilpin #1. There is not a DCI in existence for the 181 so I started by photos and scrapped it all when I found the drawings. I would not have looked as hard if I had picked an easier example.

For a very good explanation of the final Lima drawing system see:
http://www.locogear.com/LTB09.pdf

Cheers Dan
ShaylocoDan

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Re: Shay Locomotives how to find the drawings to build one
« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2021, 12:54:44 AM »
Does the completeness of the plans available very a lot from engine to engine, do they tend to have a full set for a lot of them? Also, do they share lots between engines of a class? Amazing that any of it still exists, its quite unusual for that much paper to survive!

Offline Dan Rowe

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Re: Shay Locomotives how to find the drawings to build one
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2021, 01:51:11 AM »
Chris,
Some of the early drawings are not known to exist The longer an engine class was in production the higher chances that every drawing will be available. In some cases, I have had to go to the last set of drawings to use the drawing that superseded the drawing called for on the DCI. This is another reason I store my records by bore and stroke I can check the whole class for a supersede reference.

There are a lot of common parts and Lima did not throw stuff out. The trucks for the 2-7x7 class went under the first 2-6x10 Shay S/N 341. I was thrilled to find that drawing and to my surprise, it is way more detailed than a normal truck plan drawing. It has all square nuts and bolts and why I started making model square bolts and nuts.

Yes, it is amazing that so much paper exists. The story as told to me was the drawings were stored in the old scale house at the Lima works and one winter the roof collapsed and railfans rescued the drawings from obscurity.

Cheers Dan
ShaylocoDan

Offline PJPickard

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Re: Shay Locomotives how to find the drawings to build one
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2021, 02:20:50 AM »
Well much thanks to Dan! I didn't expect so much when I made my innocent little statement about want to build a Shay. All this is super helpful and indeed it is amazing so much exists. I have know I wanted to build a Shay for ...well MANY years. I like all kinds of Shays and made a brief start on Westside #15 in about 2000 in 2.5" scale. As I age the big stuff is, well too big! Plus I have always felt that 3/4" and 1" is just about right as a model(and even smaller too) the big stuff is more like a real engineering project.

Why 2990? Well it could have been a Kelley island Shay(I'm from Ohio) but I had decided that 1" scale and standard gauge would be right. After that I just picked what I like, small, 2 cylinder, wood cab, straight boiler and "modern." A different thing altogether that I considered is a Pacific Coast.

Funny how 2990 is almost on the cusp of the change in drawing index types.

I spent a happy few times at Allen County many years ago doing research on Ashtabula Ohio, and came away with a ton of good stuff. Someday maybe that info will be useful for a model railroad.

I don't post a ton here as I mainly into live steam locos, but I hope to at least start the research for the Shay and get some drawings collected.

As proof of my nearly lifelong interest in Shays I have attached a pic of me taken in about 1967 at Cass. My dad an NYC railroader and live steamer took me to Cass dozens of times.

Offline Dan Rowe

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Re: Shay Locomotives how to find the drawings to build one
« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2021, 03:34:19 AM »
Great photo Paul, My granddad and great-grandad had a model train shop in San Diego CA and a 7.5" gauge live steam line which is what made me a RR fan. I did not discover Shays until after I graduated from the Merchant Marine Academy. When I saw a marine engine attached to a boiler on rails I knew that I had to build one or more.

I went down the 2.5" scale rabbit hole for a bit but the expense and work and the need of a crane which my shop is equipped with just was too much. 7/8" scale is big enough to work with drawings and still be very close to the prototype I still want to build a model crane for my model shop.

My favorite Shays are the 2 cylinder 2' gauge Shays. I also like all the ones that they only made one of. I store the records for these in a separate file labeled mutts. The world's most powerful Shay is in the mutt file. https://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,10583.0.html

I thought this would be a good one to explain the Lima system because it is right at the end of the old system of records and really used both systems so there is a need to talk about both. S/N 2990 is the very last 2-8x12 that has a DCI. It should also have a Detail Index but as that number did not work in the CSRM database there is not a DI available as they are only at CSRM. This fact is not a deal breaker either as they are other methods to find the drawings needed by looking at earlier plans or later plans for any missing details.

Cheers Dan
« Last Edit: November 23, 2021, 01:37:19 PM by Dan Rowe »
ShaylocoDan

Offline Dan Rowe

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Re: Shay Locomotives how to find the drawings to build one
« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2021, 07:29:46 PM »
The reason I use the term Drawing Card Index is that was what it was called at the Lima works. Drawing Card is what they called the drawings. This is sometimes called a Drawing or a Card for shorthand in Lima forms. Sometimes in notes on Drawing Cards, it will be shortened to CD then the drawing number. Do not make the rookie mistake of thinking that CD is part of the Drawing Card number there is not a Lima Shay drawing with the prefix CD

The same goes for Detail Index that is what they were called and it is the title of the early two types of DI's. The last form actually says Geared Locomotive not Detail Index but to keep it simple I call all the 11" x 17" multiple page Shay index books a Detail Index.

I mentioned that the early DI's were the details of a Plan #. They had the first column for part description and a header with room to add shop numbers. This would record any differences in the different members of a Plan. The problem is when there are way to many shop numbers to fit in a book. Some of the details are not recorded. A case in point is Plan 1553 which is a very popular 2-6x10 plan and the first one piece bottom bracket (crankcase bracket). Plan 1553 was also used for the first cast steel trucks for S/N 1823. Some of this is indicated on the DCI but several critical details are missing, like the equalizer lever and the Truck Plan. It took detective work to find those drawings.

Now to the early drawing system. This is really at least three drawing systems rolled into one system. Any Shay drawing with a number less than 6000 was drawn before about 1904. This group can be broken down into two separate groups 3-2999 and 3000 to 5999.

The first set 3-3000 includes drawings with a single letter prefix. T is the most common prefix but several other letters are used. This is the oldest group of Lima Shay drawings. The last one of these I have in my database is T 2238 Water Gauge Details drawn 4-12-1892.

The next group 3000 to 5999 is a mix of early Shay drawings. Card 3000 Quadrant Bracket has a date of 12-24-1900 the last one in this series I have a date for is 5632 End Supplement for Plan 577 dated 6-26-1906. In this series there is no real organization, I think that they simply used the next available Card number and several Shays were in the drafting room at the same time. Drawings for a Shay drawn in this period will be in tiny blocks with other Shays interlaced numerically.

The next series of drawings are 6000 to 16799 are grouped according to part type. This is similar to the last series where I said the two first numbers are a part type. It is really called a group number for the later series in the key for the last series but a really a group number is a type of Shay part. There is not a key for the early series but by observation, it can be seen that like parts are grouped together.

Here is the key made from the database of this group. The first 2 or 3 digits are the group number or part type, the last 2 digits are the drawing number. Now the last two numbers can only go to 99, and several groups have more than 99 drawings. This is solved by adding a letter as a prefix. So the next drawing after 9799 is A 9700, then if needed A 9799 would be followed by B 9700.

Group or part numbers for early Shay drawings.
6000 not used or unknown
7000 not used or unknown
7100 Lubrication devices
7200 Cylinder heads
7300 Cylinder cock
7400 Valve chest
7500 Piston
7600 Valve stems
7700 Packing Glands
7800 Crosshead
7900 Crosshead guide
8000 Valve stem crosshead
8100 Expansion link
8200 Tumbling Shaft
8300 Reverse shaft
8400 Eccentrics
8500 Link Pins
8600 Link Motion
8700 Bottom Bracket
8800 Gears
8900 Connection Rod
9000 Line shaft couplings
9100 Line Shaft
9200 Truck Box (right side)
9300 Pedestal (left side)
9400 Truck center column
9500 Truck Bolster
9600 Truck Center plate
9700 Truck Arch and Tie bars
9800 Truck Brake
9900 Wheel and Tire
10000 Headlight bracket
10100 Truck Details
10200 Axle
10300 End Timber
10400 Drawhead
10500 Pilot
10600 Boiler Saddle
10700 Boiler Pad and Clamp
10800 Frame End Casting
10900 Running Board
11000 Frame Details
11100 Cab
11200 Injectors
11300 Syphons
11400 Boiler Details
11500 Boiler Supplement
11600 Boiler Details
11700 Boiler Details
11800 Grates
11900 Ash Pan
12000 Dome Casing
12100 Throttle
12200 Sand Box
12300 Expansion Plate
12400 Frame Truss
12500 Bell
12600 Stack
12700 Fire Door
12800 Exhaust Pipe
12900 Smoke Box
13000 Smoke Box Brace
13100 Tools
13200 End Supplement
13300 Clearance Diagram
13400 Frame Brake
13500 Steam Brake
13600 Car Wheel (not Shay part)
13700 Snow Plow
13800 Frame Details
13900 Truck Frames
14000-14900 Car Details or unknown not Shay parts
15000 Tools
15100 Tank details
15200 Tender Frame
15300 unknown or not assigned
15400 Boiler
15500 Bottom Bracket
15600 Steam Bracket
15700 Crankshaft
15800 Frame Supplement
15900 Cylinder
16000 Truck Plan
16100 Tender Frame
16200 Erecting Plan
16300 Erecting Plan
16400 Erecting Plan
16500 Erecting Plan
16600 Erecting Plan
16700 Frame

That was a bit of typing, but now the Lima drawing system might be a bit less confusing. It is really a lot of paper that survived.

A few years back I made a few rough calculations and told my wife that I had enough Lima paper to cover all the walls of the house 3 times. She glanced up and said "Yeah okay, you big idiot tell me something I don't know"

Next time a little bit about the drawings then back to the DCI for S/N 2990.

Cheers Dan
« Last Edit: November 23, 2021, 08:46:39 PM by Dan Rowe »
ShaylocoDan

Offline Roger B

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Re: Shay Locomotives how to find the drawings to build one
« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2021, 07:52:56 PM »
Wow  :)  :) :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp: That is some research  :wine1:
Best regards

Roger

Offline PJPickard

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Re: Shay Locomotives how to find the drawings to build one
« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2021, 10:52:41 PM »
Great work Dan, thanks for adding more and more to it!

I have an old list from Allen County for builders photos, they have one for 2990. I know the image I'm just hoping the photo has better detail than what is reproduced in books. Do you think a trip there for related drawings is worth it?

BTW...about your name...ShaylocoDan. Years ago I tried to get my email as Limaloco which was their cable address...I guess someone had it so I had to be satisfied with the reverse! I get lots of Spanish language spam email!

Offline Dan Rowe

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Re: Shay Locomotives how to find the drawings to build one
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2021, 03:04:51 AM »
Thanks, guys I always learn something new when I track down the drawings for a Shay.

Paul if you are close to Lima I would say yes go there, for me it is a bit of a trip so I usually order drawings and builder's photos by sending an email to Charles Bates his email is in the ACHS link in the first post.

I have several 8x10 builder's photos and yes they are much better than the stuff printed in books. I have taken a few and used them to draw lettering and even number plates. So yes by all means get a copy of the photo to help with details.

Cheers Dan
ShaylocoDan

Offline Dan Rowe

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Re: Shay Locomotives how to find the drawings to build one
« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2021, 06:02:10 PM »
The current version of the CSRM database has only been available for a couple of years. The old database did not list the drawings it only had a listing that would have information from a Drawing Card Index or a Detail Index in the collection.

My early research was all done at CSRM and ACHS. It is possible to view a DCI or a DI at the CSRM library during visiting hours. It is not possible to see any of the drawings on request they have to be ordered 10 at a time. There is a set of red bound volumes that contain the same information now on the web.

This is the first time I have tried the online database to lookup Shay drawings so I am still learning how to make it work. I said that CSRM did not have a DCI or a DI for 2990 in the collection. Now I know that I have no idea if they have one or both of the forms. I will keep mashing buttons using the Lima records in my collection to try and solve the riddle and report back my findings.

Now to the Lima Shay drawings.
The early set of drawings have more parts per drawing sheet than the later set of drawings which has only one part per sheet.

I just pulled Card 3 the lowest number known but it is not the earliest drawing by date. Here is the title block:

Card No. 3          Lima Locomotive Works, Incorporated
File in DR 7200    Cylinder Details - 8" X 8" & 8" X 12"               Date 3-5-14

I count 22 parts and it looks like it is every that is needed for all the early version of the bore and stroke listed except for the cylinder casting and bearing.
 
Notice the file in Drawer 7200. This puts this drawing with cylinder heads. I use the old file in drawer system to store my cards. It is already there why fight it.

There is another type of card that has multiple parts on a sheet. These are known as group cards and they will have several sizes of a Shay part. There are group cards for eccentrics, brake rods, tumbling shafts, and other Shay parts.

I just tried to find card 3 in the CSRM database and looking for 3 gives about 2100 hits. It will be hard to find single digit card numbers. I used the advanced search and typed Lima Locomotive Works 3 "cylinder details" to find the drawing.

https://csrm.andornot.com/en/list?q=Lima+Locomotive+Works++3+%22cylinder+details%22+&p=1&ps=20

This card mist have been redrawn in 1914 from a previous version with the same number because the DCI for S/N 50 built in 1882 lists card 3.


Back to S/N 2990....

Boiler B 15401 the CSRM database says Boiler--37-3/8" Straight which just grew the boiler by 2" in OD. It also says Loco 2793. Checking the Shay website yes the same 35.375" boiler is used on 2793 but here is the cool bit 2793 has a rare left side photo.

Okay Paul I am going to leave this in your court for a while. I would contact CSRM and ask if they have index 186 as it will have a few key drawing numbers not listed on the DCI I posted for 2990.

So the strategy is to enter each card number in the CSRM database and if they do have it cool if it is missing check with Charles Bates at ACHS.

When you get to the few things, not on the DCI like Truck Plan and Tumbling Shaft I can try to help. If CSRM has index 186 these will be listed.

Here are the instructions for the CSRM database with a vidio.
https://csrm.andornot.com/en/help

Cheers Dan




ShaylocoDan

Online Kim

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Re: Shay Locomotives how to find the drawings to build one
« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2021, 06:30:15 PM »
Wow, Dan!
This thread is a wealth of information about how to research Shays!  Thanks for sharing it with us!
Kim

Offline Dan Rowe

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Re: Shay Locomotives how to find the drawings to build one
« Reply #15 on: November 24, 2021, 07:57:26 PM »
Kim, thanks, for me researching Shays and finding unknown details is almost as fun as building Shays.

I made my first Shay research trip sometime in the early 1990s. CSRM is open from 1:00 to 5:00 four days a week. That is exactly the amount of time I spent with the red books that are the Shay database. On the last day about 20 minutes before closing I had 4 or 5 legal pages full of drawings I found interesting by the title only. I asked about ordering the drawings and I was told about the ten drawing limit. What a crushing blow  :zap: I managed to pick 10 and then drove to ACHS.

At the Allen County Museum, I met Charles Bates for the first time. He is very friendly and helpful and piled more Shay information in front of me than I could handle at the time. I have spent several days back in the stacks at Allen County looking at Shay drawings and I always enjoy the trip. This is why I became a lifetime contributing member of the Allen County Historical Society. If Charles gets a question about Shays that he can not answer it shows up in my inbox.

Cheers Dan
ShaylocoDan

Offline Dan Rowe

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Re: Shay Locomotives how to find the drawings to build one
« Reply #16 on: November 24, 2021, 10:53:18 PM »
I know everyone likes pictures so here is my drafting office.

Cheers Dan
ShaylocoDan

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Re: Shay Locomotives how to find the drawings to build one
« Reply #17 on: November 24, 2021, 11:03:28 PM »
You mention a ten drawing limit - is that how many you can get copies of at a time? Hopefully not a lifetime limit!   :o

Offline Dan Rowe

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Re: Shay Locomotives how to find the drawings to build one
« Reply #18 on: November 24, 2021, 11:08:13 PM »
No simply 10 at one time then 10 more then 10 more and 10 more.... :popcorn: just like popcorn.

Cheers Dan
ShaylocoDan

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Re: Shay Locomotives how to find the drawings to build one
« Reply #19 on: November 24, 2021, 11:35:31 PM »
No simply 10 at one time then 10 more then 10 more and 10 more.... :popcorn: just like popcorn.

Cheers Dan
Ah, Good!

Been to stores that did limits on some things, so out to car, drop in bag, go back in store for another.... Yes, just like popcorn!

Offline Dan Rowe

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Re: Shay Locomotives how to find the drawings to build one
« Reply #20 on: November 24, 2021, 11:56:56 PM »
Chris, it is not really that simple, orders can take a while so I hate wasting drawing slots when I order more. They wait until they have a bunch of orders and process the whole batch at once. The good news is the drawings are being scanned at the same time as some of the paper is elderly and brittle.

I just order what I need from ACHS so that is my favorite store but there is not an online catalog.

If anyone wants to give this a try for a Shay shop number 2999 or less send me a PM and I will scan the DCI and send it.

I have about 2500 DCIs in my drawing office. The top 8 drawers of the flat file in the photo are filled with Lima Shay cards.

Cheers Dan
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Re: Shay Locomotives how to find the drawings to build one
« Reply #21 on: November 25, 2021, 12:39:40 AM »
If only that kind of plan library existed for Marion. And Lombard. Allis. Many more...




Thanks for sharing this!

Offline PJPickard

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Re: Shay Locomotives how to find the drawings to build one
« Reply #22 on: November 25, 2021, 01:44:12 AM »
Amazing stuff Dan, really.

And I hate to take this into the realm of railroad stuff..but I really wish we had it for General Steel Castings and Alco too.

I knew that there was a lot of Shay drawings...I had no idea it was as extensive. I love your drawing office! Mr Woodward would be proud!

Offline Dan Rowe

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Re: Shay Locomotives how to find the drawings to build one
« Reply #23 on: November 25, 2021, 02:12:06 AM »
There is also a lot of drawing cards for Lima rod locos but I have never looked very hard in that direction. Just saying if superpower is what you are looking for.

I really think I hit the jackpot finding the Shay drawings and learning enough to be able to find the drawings to draw several Shays. So far I have drawn S/N 181, S/N 517 (geared loco not a Shay), S/N 673, S/N 1823, S/N 1928, S/N 2091, and S/N 2800. When I say I drew them I mean I drew all the parts and assembled them in 2D cad.

It is S/N 1928 on the wall in the photo. The drawing is 7/8" scale. This one has a 3-10x10 engine and was the largest Shay built for 2' gauge.

Cheers Dan
ShaylocoDan

Offline PJPickard

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Re: Shay Locomotives how to find the drawings to build one
« Reply #24 on: November 25, 2021, 02:32:29 AM »
Dan,

I've always like the Silver City one from way back in Model Railroader.

Do you think Al Armitage's drawings are pretty good? I have all those issues and have looked at them over the years.

I will also have to decide how far to go in drawing...while I have and use Inventor it is easy to go down the rabbit hole of building the whole thing in 3D. That is really another hobby altogether. At my age and my list of stuff I want to build I need to build more than draw! But of course you need to do both!


Online crueby

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Re: Shay Locomotives how to find the drawings to build one
« Reply #25 on: November 25, 2021, 02:52:34 AM »
Just noticed a couple of shop elves by the frames on top of the plan drawer unit. My elves say Hi!

Offline Dan Rowe

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Re: Shay Locomotives how to find the drawings to build one
« Reply #26 on: November 25, 2021, 03:08:16 PM »
I've always like the Silver City one from way back in Model Railroader.

Do you think Al Armitage's drawings are pretty good? I have all those issues and have looked at them over the years.

Paul, one of the main reasons I started this thread is you said you read my work in SITG now that reference most likely went right past most readers. When I left the Shay book project they kicked me off the staff of Shaylocomotives.com. I sent what I wrote for the book to Ron Brown a G1 live steam buddy and it was published in Steam in the Garden.

You recognized the Silver City Shays on the list of my drawings but for those not as familiar with Shays Silver City had 5 engines. #1 and #2 were from the Gilpin Tramway #1 S/N 181 and #2 S/N 199. The #3 and #4 were identical sister engines S/N 1672 and S/N 1673. The last one is S/N 1928 which was delivered to Silver City but most likely never was used there. The engineer who survived the wreck of #4 was reported as saying only a damned fool would take that engine down that track. The #5 was for an expansion of the operation that never happened because of the 1907 financial panic that ended the Silver City operation.

Here is a link to a bunch of Shay drawings that have been published:
https://www.shaylocomotives.com/draw/ShayDrawings-by-class.pdf

It was Al Brewster that drew S/N 1672 for MR and Al Armitage who drew S/N 1673 for the NG Gazette. Both are fine drawings but at this point, I only want to work with Lima Cards and I rarely look at drawings published in magazines. I would avoid any drawing by Robert Stephens, they are simply garbage. I was a subscriber to Outdoor Railroader when they were published and one issue actually made me yell at a magazine. His stuff is a lot of rubber stamp of the same engine. I did learn something from his BAD example. Three of the Shays on my list have the same 2-6x10 engine
and none of them have the crankshaft at the same angle.

Have you considered 2' gauge Shays? the scale for G1 is 7/8" and there is a very active G1 live steam community with several events each year. Even if you want to simply run in the back yard G1 track is easy to find to make a backyard layout.

I have been thinking about ALL the 2' Shays and I can help a lot with any 2' Shay build.

Cheers Dan
ShaylocoDan

Offline Dan Rowe

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Re: Shay Locomotives how to find the drawings to build one
« Reply #27 on: November 25, 2021, 06:13:39 PM »
I will also have to decide how far to go in drawing...while I have and use Inventor it is easy to go down the rabbit hole of building the whole thing in 3D. That is really another hobby altogether. At my age and my list of stuff I want to build I need to build more than draw! But of course you need to do both!

Paul, almost all my drawings have been 2D cad because I like to redraw Lima cards. I do not really see the need for 3D cad unless you are having parts or patterns made by a 3D printer. I have had several patterns made in bronze by Shapeways so I use Alibre for the 3D work but I still draw the card in 2D first.
 
Cheers Dan
ShaylocoDan

Offline Dan Rowe

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Re: Shay Locomotives how to find the drawings to build one
« Reply #28 on: November 27, 2021, 05:46:49 PM »
I found the original dataset that has been on the web for a while that was generated from the DCIs and the DIs in the CSRM collection. Simply put 'Shay' in the first CSRM database link. The problem is it is 86 pages and 1710 records. Now, this is much smaller than all the Shays built it is a lot of information. I downloaded it all to MS Word and I will make an Excel file from that.

I mentioned that the order number is the key for Shays S/N 3000 and greater and I have realized that there is no way for anyone to figure out the order number. It is not on the web and not in any of the various books that have a Lima Shay roster. The Excel file I am working on will solve that problem so the last 334 Shays built will be included in the instructions on how to find a Shay drawing.

Cheers Dan
ShaylocoDan

Offline Dan Rowe

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Re: Shay Locomotives how to find the drawings to build one
« Reply #29 on: November 27, 2021, 10:12:54 PM »
Here is the computer corner of my drafting office.


The Shay is S/N 10 the fourth Shay built and only one of two that look like a bridge on wheels. I only have the builder's photo to work with and the engine is a rare Graham Shay engine. This is the first time I have drawn a whole Shay with 3D cad it was a thrill to spin the wheel to see the other one and all the gears turn.

Cheers Dan

ShaylocoDan

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Re: Shay Locomotives how to find the drawings to build one
« Reply #30 on: November 27, 2021, 10:21:50 PM »
Thats a good looking little loco, looks like you have a bunch of parts made for it on the desk? 

Offline Dan Rowe

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Re: Shay Locomotives how to find the drawings to build one
« Reply #31 on: November 27, 2021, 10:32:44 PM »
Chris the gears on the laptop keyboard are Lima Shay #6 gears and most of the rest of the stuff is mostly the Graham Shay engine disassembled which was fun to take apart and draw in 3D cad. I will start the truck left side Monday and have a proper build thread soon.

Cheers Dan
ShaylocoDan

Offline RReid

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Re: Shay Locomotives how to find the drawings to build one
« Reply #32 on: November 28, 2021, 06:03:17 PM »
Quote
Here is the computer corner of my drafting office.
By way of comparison, here is my drafting office. :facepalm: :)
Regards,
Ron

Offline Dan Rowe

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Re: Shay Locomotives how to find the drawings to build one
« Reply #33 on: November 28, 2021, 09:02:22 PM »
That looks like my secondary location only I can watch TV at the same time good for the cut and paste of the CSRM database. It is going to take a while to chew through that file but when done it will have the links to the CSRM webpage, click on the owner and every Shay they had with a CSRM index will pop up.

It is not possible to search for the CSRM record ID or at least I could not figure it out. I think the ID numbers will be a block of numbers for both DIs and DCIs, but my search pattern leads to a jumbled dataset.

Cheers Dan
ShaylocoDan

Offline Dan Rowe

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Re: Shay Locomotives how to find the drawings to build one
« Reply #34 on: December 06, 2021, 09:30:09 PM »
I am making slow progress on working out how to find Lima Shay documents at CSRM, I found out how to search for the source record id which is the unique identity number. I was correct the DCI records are in sequence so this will help to find all of them in the CSRM collection.

I went backward with the identification number and found a mixed bag of drawings with no obvious reason to be in a continuous block. Then I spotted a Shay card redrawn in 2005 which really got my attention.

https://csrm.andornot.com/en/permalink/techdrawing143001

T 173 Plan 189 2 7X12 Details of line shaft

Well, I know this drawing came to me in two parts with card number 231. Both parts have the file in drawer number so the drawing was damaged at the loco works way before it was at CSRM.

I took extra care to redraw this card with the closest I could get to the original fonts and all the notes.

I gave a copy of the restored drawing to CSRM on my next visit and never knew anything else about it. The old number could be seen through the blackout used to cover it and I kept that visible so it became the drawing number.

The small section of the drawing and my restored version are attached. If you look at the top the original draftsman is L.E.F 10/16/93  I simply added Redrawn 3/24/2004 D.G.R.

Cheers Dan
ShaylocoDan

Offline Dan Rowe

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Re: Shay Locomotives how to find the drawings to build one
« Reply #35 on: December 06, 2021, 09:38:55 PM »
Here is the small section of the original drawing.

Cheers Dan
ShaylocoDan

Offline derekwarner

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Re: Shay Locomotives how to find the drawings to build one
« Reply #36 on: December 06, 2021, 11:26:11 PM »
Hi Dan....

I realise the original fabrication of the Line Drive Shafts nominates the forging of the Flanges, then a press on assembly, however will you be using say a silver soldered fabrication for the model Flanges?

Derek
Derek L Warner - Honorary Secretary [Retired]
Illawarra Live Steamers Co-op - Australia
www.ils.org.au

Offline Dan Rowe

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Re: Shay Locomotives how to find the drawings to build one
« Reply #37 on: December 06, 2021, 11:36:01 PM »
Hi Derek,

I do have a Stuart steam hammer but I will take the easy route and silver solder the lineshaft thrust pads and pinions to the lineshaft.

Cheers Dan
ShaylocoDan

Offline PJPickard

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Re: Shay Locomotives how to find the drawings to build one
« Reply #38 on: December 07, 2021, 12:01:20 PM »
That's really neat with the drawing! Your work will live on!

Offline Dan Rowe

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Re: Shay Locomotives how to find the drawings to build one
« Reply #39 on: December 07, 2021, 02:43:14 PM »
Paul, thanks the initials L.E.F are for Lewis E. Feightner who I believe did his apprentice work under the first main draftsman R.B. McWhirter. The erecting card of S/N 313 by McWhirter is simply a masterwork. L.E.F moved up the ranks to the engineering department and has several Shay patents to his name.

In looking for how to spell the names correctly I hit pay dirt. I forgot I have a copy of the first 228 pages of the red Shay books at CSRM. This lists all the Shays and if there is a DCI or Di in the CSRM collection. This is exactly what the old web database had and I forgot I had it because it was simpler to use the web.

This makes making an Excel database much simpler and I can make it hyperlink to the current online database.

It will take a while to complete the database so in the meantime I can still help with Shay drawings the old fashioned way using paper records.

Cheers Dan

ShaylocoDan

Offline Dan Rowe

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Re: Shay Locomotives how to find the drawings to build one
« Reply #40 on: December 07, 2021, 03:24:56 PM »
Paul, to finish the lookup of 2990 CSRM does not have the DCI that was posted in this thread but they do have Detail Index 186 which will be a slightly better document to work from because it lists a few drawings that were never listed on the DCI form.

Cheers Dan
ShaylocoDan

Offline Dan Rowe

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Re: Shay Locomotives how to find the drawings to build one
« Reply #41 on: December 07, 2021, 09:41:35 PM »
I have worked it out that what I have been looking at is the set of Plan drawing cards that have the first Shay built to the drawing included in the listing.

There is not any way to look for a DCI or a DI on the current CSRM database. I am so glad I found my manual backup copy.

Here is a link to the order forms:
https://www.californiarailroad.museum/visit/library/forms

Here is the link that states "If you are having difficulty locating a specific drawing, or need Lima Index information, please contact the Library & Archives."

https://csrm.andornot.com/

Hopefully, I have explained this somewhat complex system of Shay drawings. It took me several years and searching for a lot of Shay drawings for me and for other builders who have asked for help over the years to gain a working knowledge of the Lima Shay drawing system.

Cheers Dan
ShaylocoDan

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Re: Shay Locomotives how to find the drawings to build one
« Reply #42 on: December 08, 2021, 12:09:03 AM »
Great info Dan - thanks very much!