Author Topic: Peristaltic Fine Spray: no mist: no fog coolant pump  (Read 8445 times)

Online Jasonb

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9628
  • Surrey, UK
Re: Peristaltic Fine Spray: no mist: no fog coolant pump
« Reply #60 on: July 08, 2024, 08:03:53 PM »
Sorotec worked out at 21.37 for 1lts inc delivery etc.

Online Jasonb

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9628
  • Surrey, UK
Re: Peristaltic Fine Spray: no mist: no fog coolant pump
« Reply #61 on: July 08, 2024, 08:40:37 PM »
Yes Sorotec was who it came from

Online Jasonb

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9628
  • Surrey, UK
Re: Peristaltic Fine Spray: no mist: no fog coolant pump
« Reply #62 on: July 09, 2024, 07:17:51 AM »
It came From Sorpotec in Germany 24.20 Euros which came out at 21.37

There is no UK agent for Sorotec.

There is a UK distributor listed on the Jokisch (who make it) website but the link to the UK supplier is dead.

http://www.jokisch.co.uk/

When I looked before the maker only listed larger quantities and from the packaging I would say that both Sorotec and Sebastian End rebottle it into the smaller 1lts size. 5lts would be a lifetime supply so I went with the smaller amount from Sorotec, plus you get a bag of Haribo from them.

https://www.jokisch-fluids.de/catalog/en/metalworking-oils/microlubraction/

Compare above with Sorotec's own label below

https://www.sorotec.de/shop/Monos-Miko-S3G-Cooling-Lubricant.html

I doubt the UK supplier if they can be contacted would do small 1lts amounts as unlike Sorotec they probably are not set up to supply the hobby market so you will end up with industrial size containers.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2024, 07:20:58 AM by Jasonb »

Online Vixen

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3211
  • Hampshire UK
Re: Peristaltic Fine Spray: no mist: no fog coolant pump
« Reply #63 on: July 09, 2024, 08:53:05 PM »
Today, I have been experimenting with the small sample of Jokisch/ Sorotec S3G Monos-Miko lubricant, kindly provided by Jason. The S3G fluid feels in all ways superior to the soluble cutting oil I have been using up to now. So, in future I will be using this fluid along with Achim and Jason.

I have a question regarding the quantity (flow rate) to use. Does Sebastian End give any guidelines as to the typical flow rate used for home shop machining (as opposed to heavy industrial machining).

I made some test measurement with my peristaltic pump, which appears to be the same type as Sebastian End uses on his MQL system. I am using LinuxCNC as the pulse generator which drives my peristaltic pump's stepper motor.

The current LinuxCNC pulse setting, rotates the pump rotor at 2.25 revs per minute, That's twice as fast as I understand Achim to be using. I can change my pulse rate higher or lower as required.

At 2.25 revs per minute the pump delivers about 32 tiny droplets per minute. The Sorotec S3G Monos-Miko droplets appear to be smaller (lower surface tension??) than the oil emulsion droplets. but I have not done a direct back to back comparison.

At 2.25 revs per minute my peristaltic pump takes approx 12 minutes to deliver 5ml of the Sorotec S3G Monos-Miko. That works out at a delivery rate of approx 25 ml per hour. I have a suspicion the achieved flow rate may be dependent both on the rotor speed and also on the roundness of the silicon feed tube. My feed tube has been in use for over two years, it is noticeable flatter than when new.

The big question is whether 25 ml per hour is too much or too little. What are the guidelines? and what do you guys use? Is there any rule of thumb to gauge the minimum quantity lubrication flow rate required?

How do I tell if I am providing too much or too little lubricant?

Cheers

Mike
« Last Edit: July 09, 2024, 09:11:50 PM by Vixen »
It is the journey that matters, not the destination

Sometimes, it can be a long and winding road

Offline Dave Otto

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4740
  • Boise, Idaho USA
    • Photo Bucket
Re: Peristaltic Fine Spray: no mist: no fog coolant pump
« Reply #64 on: July 09, 2024, 10:11:38 PM »
Hi Mike

I use a Trico Micro Drop on my mill, similar idea with a different delivery method https://www.tricocorp.com/products/md-1200-micro-drop-dispenser
The unit uses a pressurized container to force the lubricant down the tubing to the nozzle tip. There are needle valve controls to meter the amount of lube and the also the air volume.
I only need to fill the small reservoir about once a year. They say the the unit would use about 1oz in an eight hour shift. They also say that most all of the lubricant should be consumed in the cut, with very little excess.
It seems to me from my experience and information from Trico that you may be using too much lubricant.

I also discovered that their vegetable based oil dries to a sticky goo, but the synthetic lubricant does not. It took me a long time to work my way through that first gallon of vegetable oil, and it costs enough that I didn't want to through it out.

Dave

Online Vixen

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3211
  • Hampshire UK
Re: Peristaltic Fine Spray: no mist: no fog coolant pump
« Reply #65 on: July 09, 2024, 11:18:42 PM »
Hello Dave,

Thanks for that information. This the first baseline figure I have discovered.     1oz(US) in 8 hours equates to 29.5ml in 8 hours or 3.7ml /hour
So I have my peristaltic pump set way too high..... 7 times too high    :lolb: :lolb:      I can easily reset the stepper motor pulse rate to a much lower figure, so that the current pump speed of 2.25 revs/minute becomes closer to 0.32 revs/min, and see what that looks like.

Your comments about vegetable v synthetic base are interesting. Nice if you could afford to chose. Out of interest (rather than intent) I looked up the Amazon price for Tri Cool MD7 synthetic; $180 per gallon plus $365 for shipping with the added risk of import duty this end..Perhaps not.  :insane:

Thanks again

Mike
« Last Edit: July 09, 2024, 11:44:43 PM by Vixen »
It is the journey that matters, not the destination

Sometimes, it can be a long and winding road

Offline Dave Otto

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4740
  • Boise, Idaho USA
    • Photo Bucket
Re: Peristaltic Fine Spray: no mist: no fog coolant pump
« Reply #66 on: July 10, 2024, 12:00:36 AM »
Hi Mike

Wow those prices are ridiculously expensive, $365.00 for shipping. :o
I checked MSC here in the US and the MD7 is $156.00 which is still about double what I paid for the gallon that I purchased a few years ago.
I will probably get 5 to 10 years use from a gallon, while it does hurt to purchase it, over time it is not too bad of a value.

One area where the Micro Drop falls short is drilling deep holes, I keep a small squeeze bottle of soluble oil on hand for use while drilling.

Dave

Online Jasonb

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9628
  • Surrey, UK
Re: Peristaltic Fine Spray: no mist: no fog coolant pump
« Reply #67 on: July 10, 2024, 07:18:55 AM »
I think I would rather run a bit more than is needed than risk a cutter getting a build up of Ali on the tips and weld itself into the job. Also one type of cut may want more fluid than another, for example a heavy adaptive cut that is shifting a lot of material would want more than just a fine 0.2mm stepover finishing pass with ball nose cutter than is just removing the last 0.3mm or so.

In a similar way when the cutter is behind the work or spiraling it's way down into a deep pocket the lube is not going to be reaching the cut as well as it would at the front surface so you need the minimum at the least accessible point which is going to mean more at other times.

I also find the droplet that forms on the end of my nozzle is smaller than if I just let the drip form on the end of the feed tube, no doubt due to the air drawing the drip into the tube. I will measure the capacity of the container I use and can then work out flow from time it took to drain.

If you watch this full screen it is quite easy to see the drop form and then the liquid get carried onto the work. A couple of times I had an airbubble in the feed so you will see me being safe with an additional brush.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hm0E8bSQacg" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hm0E8bSQacg</a>

I also see that Sorotec do another liquid Samnos AL which is designed for machining aluminium and says that 95% will evaporate away so may be the one that would suit me better as there would be no residue on the machine for cast iron dust to stick to. At which point I should ask Mike if he has noticed if the machine or swarf is wetter with the S3G than when using soluable oil?

https://www.hpmtechnologie.com/industrial-lubricants/samnos.html

Offline fumopuc

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3360
  • Munich, Germany, EU
Re: Peristaltic Fine Spray: no mist: no fog coolant pump
« Reply #68 on: July 10, 2024, 09:59:31 AM »
Today, I have been experimenting with the small sample of Jokisch/ Sorotec S3G Monos-Miko lubricant, kindly provided by Jason. The S3G fluid feels in all ways superior to the soluble cutting oil I have been using up to now. So, in future I will be using this fluid along with Achim and Jason.

I have a question regarding the quantity (flow rate) to use. Does Sebastian End give any guidelines as to the typical flow rate used for home shop machining (as opposed to heavy industrial machining).

I made some test measurement with my peristaltic pump, which appears to be the same type as Sebastian End uses on his MQL system. I am using LinuxCNC as the pulse generator which drives my peristaltic pump's stepper motor.

The current LinuxCNC pulse setting, rotates the pump rotor at 2.25 revs per minute, That's twice as fast as I understand Achim to be using. I can change my pulse rate higher or lower as required.

At 2.25 revs per minute the pump delivers about 32 tiny droplets per minute. The Sorotec S3G Monos-Miko droplets appear to be smaller (lower surface tension??) than the oil emulsion droplets. but I have not done a direct back to back comparison.

At 2.25 revs per minute my peristaltic pump takes approx 12 minutes to deliver 5ml of the Sorotec S3G Monos-Miko. That works out at a delivery rate of approx 25 ml per hour. I have a suspicion the achieved flow rate may be dependent both on the rotor speed and also on the roundness of the silicon feed tube. My feed tube has been in use for over two years, it is noticeable flatter than when new.

The big question is whether 25 ml per hour is too much or too little. What are the guidelines? and what do you guys use? Is there any rule of thumb to gauge the minimum quantity lubrication flow rate required?

How do I tell if I am providing too much or too little lubricant?

Cheers

Mike


Hi Mike,
Good Morning.
I have no idea about these absolute figures you mention here.
No idea how to really evaluate with my system.
But I can show you, what 1,2 rpm, mostly adjusted at my system optical wise means.
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IN4Ok14sIQ" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IN4Ok14sIQ</a>







Kind Regards
Achim

Online Jasonb

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9628
  • Surrey, UK
Re: Peristaltic Fine Spray: no mist: no fog coolant pump
« Reply #69 on: July 10, 2024, 11:00:58 AM »
This one shows the liquid on the surface when using mine, looks a similar amount

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AloAsKTpV4I" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AloAsKTpV4I</a>

Offline fumopuc

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3360
  • Munich, Germany, EU
Re: Peristaltic Fine Spray: no mist: no fog coolant pump
« Reply #70 on: July 10, 2024, 11:22:15 AM »


One area where the Micro Drop falls short is drilling deep holes, I keep a small squeeze bottle of soluble oil on hand for use while drilling.

Dave


Hi Dave,
100% agreed.
Here I use a common paintbrush and my normal coolant for the conventional mill, Curtis Bio cut 35.

Kind Regards
Achim

Online Jasonb

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9628
  • Surrey, UK
Re: Peristaltic Fine Spray: no mist: no fog coolant pump
« Reply #71 on: July 10, 2024, 11:42:39 AM »
Next project for Mike - Through coolant system :stickpoke:

Online Vixen

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3211
  • Hampshire UK
Re: Peristaltic Fine Spray: no mist: no fog coolant pump
« Reply #72 on: July 10, 2024, 01:52:54 PM »
Next project for Mike - Through coolant system :stickpoke:
Hello Jason and Achim,

Ha ha, lets get the MQL optimised first.  :thinking:

We are all experienced engineers and well used to making adjustments, according to what we see, hear and feel. Sometimes it is good to also have the numbers (especially with CNC) with which to compare our settings. The easiest way to measure the flow rate, is to time how long the pump takes to deliver 5ml of fluid into a small syringe or graduated cylinder. My current setting fills a 5ml syringe in about 12 minutes. If we all could make that measurement, we will have the numbers to compare.

It's very easy to create a film of lubricant on a flat surface. The challenge is to provide an adequate film on the far side of a part and more so, into the bottom of a deep pocket. Other than through tool lubrication, the most practical option is to supply excess fluid, well above the minimum MQL. We all seem to be heading in that direction.

When searching for information about MQL flow rates, it quickly becomes obvious that MQL lubrication is all about reducing environmental impact, by removing the need to recover and dispose of used coolant from the pile of chips and safely dispose of the used coolant itself. Nowhere, was it suggested that MQL was a superior coolant/ lubrication method.

We use it in our CNC milling machines, because it is relatively clean and convenient, rather than environmental friendly. We can use as much fluid as we want to overcome the shadow area problems in our machined parts.

I am still waiting for some new parts to make a different supply tank for the Sorotec S3G. I need an airtight tank with a vent pipe, so that I can easily pressurise (blow into) the tank to quickly fill the pipework with the pump door open. Only then can I compare the Sorotec S3G with my water soluble coolant.

My feeling is that the Sorotec S3G (at higher flow rates) will be the superior lubricant, but will leave a sticky surface deposit, which may become more gummy with time. I am currently using quite high flow rates with my water soluble coolant, which helps to get the fluid into the difficult shadow areas. The water provides tool cooling and the lube oil content (15:1) is still quite low, heading towards MQL. Given time, the water evaporates off the surfaces and also out of the chip pile. It really is quite clean. So I am still open minded about using Sorotec S3G or water soluble coolant. Time will tell.  :thinking: :thinking:

Has there been any discussion on Sebastian's Facebook about suggested flow rates for his system? There is far too much chat to conveniently Google translate.

Please find the time to make the flow rate measurements.   :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

Cheers

Mike

« Last Edit: July 11, 2024, 05:10:15 PM by Vixen »
It is the journey that matters, not the destination

Sometimes, it can be a long and winding road

Offline Dave Otto

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4740
  • Boise, Idaho USA
    • Photo Bucket
Re: Peristaltic Fine Spray: no mist: no fog coolant pump
« Reply #73 on: July 10, 2024, 01:59:09 PM »
I guess what ever works for you guys, but that does seem like an excessive amount of oil to me, maybe the MD7 oil requires less usage. If I get some time I will try to take a video of what mine looks like. We are not comparing apples to apples here so might not be worth the effort. Yes, and depending on what I'm cutting or how it is being cut, I will adjust the air and fluid flow to suit.
I think that I have posted these screen shots before but will again. these show how the Micro Drop nozzle is constructed. I just make them as needed to replace damaged ones.
My system does have dual nozzles to it is easier to keep the spray on the tool as it moves around the part.

Dave

Online Vixen

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3211
  • Hampshire UK
Re: Peristaltic Fine Spray: no mist: no fog coolant pump
« Reply #74 on: July 10, 2024, 02:29:12 PM »

I guess what ever works for you guys, but that does seem like an excessive amount of oil to me, ..........

Dave
Hello Dave,

I agree, it well may be an excessive amount. That's why I asked the question about what everyone else was using. If you could find the time  measure the time take to deliver a know quantity of fluid, It would give us another data point. I DO like numbers.  :thinking: :thinking:

Mike
It is the journey that matters, not the destination

Sometimes, it can be a long and winding road

 

SimplePortal 2.3.5 © 2008-2012, SimplePortal