DoAll Bandsaw for Brian

[Brian Rupnow]

Friday I drove to Toronto and bought a DoAll bandsaw and a new VFD to drive it from a used machinery dealer. It fit nicely into my F150 pickup truck, and with many tie down straps it rode happily 100 km. from Toronto to my house in Barrie. It is HUGE compared to my old bandsaw, and the tricky part was getting it offloaded from my truck. I had a really bad experience with machinery movers when I bought my lathe five years ago. I had unloaded it from my truck and called the movers. Two giant men came, moved my lathe in about fifteen minutes, and charged me $500. NOT going to do that ever again. So---Today I spent an hour welding up a machine specific device to attach to the end of my engine hoist and unloaded it by myself. Everything went fine, I didn't get hurt, I didn't damage anything on the machine, and it's in my garage. It's 90 degrees outside, and my digital camera fogged up instantly when I took it outside to take pictures. I don't know a lot about this machine yet, but the place I bought it from did turn it on and show me that it did work on three phase. I will post more about it as I learn more about it myself.---Brian

[Dave Otto]

Blade welder and all!
Nice addition.

Dave

[GordonL]

If the saw is set up for 3 phase the welder may not work on single phase. The welder cannot work through the VFD. My DoAll saw has a single phase motor running on 120 V and the welder is 440 V. The welder is not a DoAll welder but was a later replacement.

[Brian Rupnow]

I hadn't planned on using the blade welders anyways. First question---The new saw has wheels 1.010" wide x 16" diameter, and the blade on it was 1/2" wide. Can I safely run 3/4" wide blades on it. I don't cut curves, and the 3/4" wide blades are what I have always ran on my smaller converted wood cutting bandsaw.

[Brian Rupnow]

My wife took some pictures with her phone camera. Bloody thing works better than my digital camera!!

[john mills]

what size blades you use will depend on what blade guides you have .the 1/2" blades were what the welder suited.
before cnc machines lots of tools were cut out on the band saw mainly tool steel  k245 so spent days at a time cutting  you learn how to weld new blades we made lots of them .they had the 1/2"blade that was all we used
we cut out up to 32 mm thick .
John

[Brian Rupnow]

After scrambling around unloading the machine from my pickup truck, I finally got wound down enough to look for the model number. It is a model 1612-U with 16" wheels. Although many places like ebay are trying to sell manuals for these machines, I found a manual for this machine put out by the USA army that seems to be free. My new VFD is being shipped to me on Monday or Tuesday, and I have to figure out how to wire it up and get the machine running. There definitely is a connection between the blade guides and the width of blade that can be used. I need to buy a new blade, but have to research this more ---I don't want to buy a bi-metal blade that won't run on this machine because it is too wide.

[propforward]

Nice. Good acquisition. The joy of having a welder (and knowing how to use it) - so many fixtures can be whipped up quickly.

And yes, my iphone has far surpassed my point and shoot cameras now. Only my professional, probably obsolete Nikon 35mm digital camera is better, and I'm not in the habit of hauling that around for point and shoots.

[Muzzer]

Did you see Steve Summers' vids about his DoAll bandsaw? Yours is a smaller model but there appear to be many similarities, so perhaps they might give you some inspiration.
[youtube1]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_c4G1lQlpQ&t=1306s[/youtube1]

[Brian Rupnow]

After almost a full days work, the bandsaw is in its home position. Far more work there than simply unloading it from my truck. It's amazing what one old man with a lot of rope, a garden tractor, and a rockbar stolen from the Faraday uranium mines 50 years ago can accomplish. In the pictures you will see some of the remaining garage sale stuff that has yet to go. My wife has told me that I can have one bay of the garage for my equipment, but By God she wants a full bay left for her Honda in the wintertime.----Yes Dear!!!---. This saw has a really nice guide or fence on the tabletop. I'm sure that will come in very handy. My VFD came today, and after a very quick look I decided that it was out of my league, so I called a friend who is an electrical guy and he is going to come over and wire it for me.

[steamer]

Thats a nice looking saw Brian!  I like that fence!!!   Hadn't seen one quite like that one, but it's clever!!!.....Leave it to Do-All

Dave

[Brian Rupnow]

This is a rather crummy picture of a segment of 3/4" blade from my small bandsaw held in place in the guides of the DoALL saw. It fits between the angled guides and the back of it is up against the bearing. If I ran a blade this width with no other changes, all I can see happening is that the blade will not run exactly centered on the 16" band wheels. If I take the DoAll blade guide assembly apart, there might even be room to move the bearing farther back x 1/8", so the blade can run centered on the 16" band wheels.

[Brian Rupnow]

Having a closer look at this blade guide, the angled fingers are stamped 1/2". Notice however, that the ball bearing is setting about 3/16" proud of the cast housing. The bearing on my saw is seized up, so I have to remove and possibly replace it. It will be interesting to see if that bearing can be moved farther into the cast housing.

[Brian Rupnow]

A little more information--With the saw guides removed, I have a better look at the bearing. The blade doesn't ride against the face of the bearing. It rides against the face of a mushroom headed hardened steel stub shaft which fits into the bearing.  No snap rings are visible, but it looks to me like that thing on the back side is just a cap that should be removeable? The bearing is not seized up after all. It rotates freely.  I may just put it all back together and put it back on the saw. I have come to a decision about the saw blade. I am going to go with a 1/2" wide blade. I will get a bi-metal  blade with 5-8 staggered tooth pattern. I want to see the saw run successfully before I try something like a different blade size. Who knows? Maybe the 1/2" blade will do everything I want it to.

[internal_fire]

The 1/2" blade should work fine for most purposes. At the same time a 3/4" blade should work without difficulty since the wheels are a bit wider than 1". If the wheels have any crown then the blade will tend to stay centered regardless of size. The blade centerline mismatch is only 1/8" in any case.

The 1/2" guides would probably work fine for 3/4" blades since you said you do not cut curves. They would not provide good support if you do attempt curves. You could always add a shim behind the guides to bring them out a bit more if you decide to try 3/4" blades.

A wide blade is useful for the typical cut-off type saw in order to keep the cut from wandering. You will probably be hand feeding the DoAll so the blade stability is less important.

Gene

[Brian Rupnow]

Figuring things out as I roll along----My little 16" wood cutting bandsaw had a 3/4" wide wood cutting blade on it when I bought it. I added a shaft and pulleys to slow the blade down, and then after seeing how quickly it ran thru ordinary metal cutting blades, I switched to bi-metal blades. With a 3/4" wide blade, you really can't cut curves. That's okay, I never really wanted to cut curves. 99% of my cuts were simple straight cuts. Now this new to me DoAll saw is not called a "bandsaw". It says right on it that it is a "contour saw".---Maybe that should have made me stop and think, but damn, it has two pulleys and a saw band on it, so to me, that's a bandsaw. After two or three days of "faffing about", I now understand why it had a 1/2" sawblade on it.---To cut contours---DUH---Oh well, I'll try it with a 1/2" bi metal blade and see if I'm happy with the results. Maybe it will be fine. If it isn't fine, then it seems that I can make it fine by fiddling with the blade guides and putting a 3/4" blade on it. Here I am, 75 years old, worked in engineering all my life, and never knew that there was such a thing as a "Contour Saw". Life never ceases to amaze me!!!

[crueby]

My metal cutting bandsaw uses 1/2" wide blades, tracks straight quite well through the cuts, should be good for yours too. If the saw was set up for 1/2" blades, best to use those. Does it have flat rubber 'tires' on the wheels that the blade runs on, or are they all steel? If rubber, check them for wear and replace if need be.

[john mills]

been using these saws from when i was an apprentice never needed any more than 1/2" blade always used 1/2" blades they will cut straight and can do curves we used to cut out tools out of tool steel 32 mm thick so should be suitable for your work used just ordinary saw blade .what is the guid under the table.
john

[Brian Rupnow]

John--Far as I can tell, the guide under the table is the same as the guide above the table.----Brian

[Brian Rupnow]

Chris--My saw has rubber tires that appear to be in very good shape.----Brian

[Muzzer]

All the parts lists, manuals etc seem to be online, although you didn't say which model this is. https://www.doallsaws.com/parts-manual

[Don1966]

A little more information--With the saw guides removed, I have a better look at the bearing. The blade doesn't ride against the face of the bearing. It rides against the face of a mushroom headed hardened steel stub shaft

I disagree never saw a blade back ride against metal to metal. The support guide should adjust it to position it against the bearing. Use a dollar bill to adjust clearance of the guided. The bearing is there to support the back of the blade. Setup is to set it to where it just touches the blade. As you cut it pushes the blade against the bearing and the bearing will spin. Alignment of the two wheels should be Done with a straight edge where both wheels are parallel to each other. If you have a manual it should show how to calibrate the saw. Such as adjusting the guides and squaring the table to aligning the two wheels.

Regards Don

[Brian Rupnow]

There is no joy in Mudville---My electrical friend who has really impressive skills came to my house this morning at 9:30 and proceeded to wire up my VFD. While he was doing his wiring thing, I decided on a mounting location and mounted the VFD on the saw.  After a whole lot of wire pulling and connecting, he hit the start button on the VFD, and the 3 phase motor started running.---but---the VFD was showing a "trip" light. The VFD was shut down, everything was checked, and the start button was pushed again. This time the VFD came to life, but the motor didn't start, and the "trip" light on the VFD came on again. Everything was checked, then re-checked, then checked again.---No Dice. The instruction booklet which came with the VFD acknowledged that yes, there was a "trip" light, but failed to mention what to do about it, nor exactly what it meant. Finally at 3:00 my friend had to leave and go home, with both of us scratching our heads and the saw still not functioning.  I don't really need the saw right now, because I still have my smaller converted wood bandsaw. In a total crunch, I can take the two horsepower single phase motor of my old power hacksaw and run the DoAll saw with it---if I have to. Still, a rather disappointing way to end the day. My friend will do some research on Tuesday when everything is open again, and hopefully come up with an answer.

[Don1966]

If the motor has been setting up for a while it needs t be megged to ground t check it’s electrical insulation resistance. The motor accumulate moisture and the VFD will sense this leakage and trip. The other option is to insure you have a good motor and it isn’t burnt or shorted internal.

Regards Don

You can try removing the ground wire to the motor and VFD just to verify that that is not the reason it trips…..

[Don1966]

These are important adjustments.

[Brian Rupnow]

Thank you Don.---Brian

[Brian Rupnow]

Question of the day is about bandsaw blades. On my smaller converted wood cutting saw, I found that the best blade was 3/4" wide bi-metallic with a 5-8 tooth configuration. My new DoAll saw takes a 120" x 1/2" blade and I can get it in bi-metallic, but the tooth configuration is only available in 10-14 and 8-12. I cut mild steel and/or aluminum from 1/8" thick up to 2" thick, with the most cutting done on 1/2"+/- steel or aluminum. Which tooth configuration would you suggest?---Brian

[john mills]

if i was cutting 1/8" much i would use the finer pitched blade if most of the cutting is thicker the wider pitch
could be better but both of these would cut ok .
john

[Vixen]

Hello Brian,

I use a 14 TPI, 1/2", bi-metalic blade for everything; steel, aluminium, thick or thin. It is a good compromise

Mike

[Brian Rupnow]

No joy again today with getting the saw to run. My electrical wizard has been in touch with the manufacturers/trouble-shooters for this VFD, and thought he would have success today, but it didn't happen. Now I wait for more phone calls, before seeing if I have a bad VFD, or a bad motor, or just general bad. I seen the motor run when I bought it at the used machinery place. I seen it run once very briefly here. I did find out where I can buy a bi-metallic 1/2" x 0.025" x 120" x 6-10 pitch blade locally, so have ordered one.---I do have a 2 HP electric motor, 110 volt that I can use on the bandsaw if all else fails, but I'd really rather use the motor that came with the saw.

[Don1966]

Brian you can run the VFD WITHOUT THE MOTOR CONNECTED TO IT TO VERIFY IT PUT A METER ON THE TERMINALS OR GET THE DISPLAY TO SHOW VOTAGE.

regards Don

I am assuming that your electricain has set all perimeters in the drive to match your motor!

[Don1966]

To help with blade selection....... Also you my be interested in the Bandsaw Book from Amazon a treasure to have. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1565238419/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Regards Don

[Brian Rupnow]

Don--Thank you for taking an interest and for helping. Today was another "no run" day, which left both me and the electrical controls guy scratching our heads. It gets involved. I bought the used saw and a new vfd from a used machinery dealer in Toronto, Ontario. The vfd he sells is from a company in Oakville, Ontario, Their tech help guy is in Quebec. I am in Barrie, Ontario, my electrical friend is from Wasaga Beach, Ontario.---Kinda like a long distance romance---

[Don1966]

Your more then welcome Brian only glad to be of assistant. I worked as a Marine Electricain/ Electronic Tech for over 55 years. I installed many VFDS and repaired them.

Regards Don

[Brian Rupnow]

Today my electrical wizard showed up, but this time he brought with him the three phase motor from his bandsaw. He hooked it up to my VFD, and it worked like a charm. This lead to farther examination of the motor on my bandsaw, and we discovered that it was absolutely "seized up"!!---This is really weird, because the saw ran at the place I bought it from, and it ran for about 15 seconds when we first hooked it up to the VFD at my place. I called the used machinery place in Toronto and told him what was happening, and asked if he had another 1 hp 1750 rpm 3-phase motor, and that if he did I would bring my motor down to Toronto and exchange it. He hummed and hawed a little and said that he wasn't sure, but he would look this afternoon and call me back. In the meantime, I'm going to try to find out what is involved in changing the bearings in the motor that came with the saw.

[Brian Rupnow]

I just checked with my local bearing supply house, and they have the bearings for my motor in stock for $12.75 each. I've watched a couple of Youtube videos on changing motor bearings, and it looks pretty darn simple. I will wait and see if the company I bought the used bandsaw from is going to replace the motor ---if they do I will drive to Toronto and exchange it. If they don't I will change the bearings on my current seized motor.

[Brian Rupnow]

This is turning into a very strange voyage. The motor was seized--I could not turn the pulley by hand. I just separated the three main segments of the motor, and the bearings are fine!! There are no score nor gouge marks on the stator nor on the windings. Everything in the motor is filthy dirty, like you would expect to see on an old used motor. I will blow all the dirt out with compressed air, then inspect and reassemble, watching for the motor shaft to start binding again.

[crueby]

Check the dirt you clean out for remnants of a squished shop gnome....

Sounds like some grit got in just the wrong place and jammed it up. Or, could the pulley on the end of the shaft have shifted and bound against the housing? I had that happen on my mill last month, the pulley had shifted down a fraction and rubbed on the headstock, stopping it.

[Don1966]

Chris could be right motors seize up from bearings and end bell housing having wear from the bearing rotating inside it. You have no wear marks in the stator core or the rotor and good bearings so it has to be a outside object causing the lockup.


Regards Don

[Brian Rupnow]

Curiosity killed the cat.---I had to tear that motor down to it's four main components and see what in heck was going on. As I expected, it was very filthy inside full of dirt that's been collecting since 1960 when that model was built.---but---I seen nothing inside that motor that would explain why it was seized. I washed away all the dirt, blew everything dry, then greased the bearings and reassembled it. Now the shaft turns with no effort at all. I checked the stator and the field windings for damage, but there was none. I was going to wire the motor up and try it now, but I simply ran out of gas and had to quit for the day.---That happens when you're seventy five. Ah well, I'll give it hell tomorrow!!!

[Brian Rupnow]

And we all lived happily ever after!! I tore the motor down, washed away 60 years of accumulated dirt, inspected everything, greased the bearings, and reassembled it. It runs like a race horse. I never did see anything that looked like it might have jambed in there. Motor is back on saw, and works beautifully. VFD is doing everything it was supposed to. HURRAY!!!

[crueby]

Let there be chips! And shorter bar stock!

[RReid]

More than once in my live have I fixed something merely by the "laying on of hands". Amen and pass the plate.

[Don1966]

Awesome….


 
Don

[Brian Rupnow]

Yeahhhhh---I just cut my first piece of metal with my new bandsaw!!! Picked up a new blade at lunchtime, rushed home and installed it, and immediately grabbed a piece of mild steel and cut it. It works like a charm. I am so impressed.---Now I can sell my smaller, converted wood bandsaw that I added a jackshaft and a couple more pulleys to to slow the blade down for cutting metal for $200. It works really well, but you can't lean on the feed to heavily or the belt drive slips a little bit.

[crueby]

A nice new tool!      That works well!   

[Brian Rupnow]

I have really big hands and fingers. The VFD for my bandsaw has a whole bunch of programing buttons on it that I never want to touch, as well as the on and off buttons, a dial to select saw speed, and a read out. Today I made a shield that covers up all of the buttons that are not on/off switches, and has a window in it for me to see the read out display, and left me access to the dial. Saw is working good, and I don't ever want to accidently press a button that changes anything in the programming.

[Don1966]

Brian you need not worry about changing parameter you have to go though quiet a few steps before they are changed. The saw looks great have you check the calibration and set all of your guides and thrust bearings? I suggested you get the book I mention. You will not regret it because it covers everything about bandsaws Down to proper blade selection for any situation you run across. It even offers jigs for different applications. It’s a treasure you will like.

Regards Don

[john mills]

there should be a guard covering the blade from the guide up and you should set the top guide as close to the
top surface of the material to be cut  most of the blade teeth facing you facing you should be covered.
john

[Brian Rupnow]

Thanks Don, I will probably do that. John--I am aware of the guard you are talking about, it was pointed out to me by the people I bought the saw from. I will probably make that guard and add it to the machine. I am aware of correct setting height for the blade guide--I had it set to clear one leg of the 4" angle that I made for the VFD panel.

[Bearcar1]

Very impressive looking saw. I used one exactly like that in the Physics Building shop at the U of I back in the day. Those are terrific saws, you won't have any trouble with it as long as you have set the running clearances of the blade and it runs centered on the wheels. I am envious...


BC1
JIM 

[Art K]

Brian,
I am glad to see that you are now able to do the happy dance with your "new" saw.
Art

[Brian Rupnow]

Today was spent rearranging things in the garage and cleaning and rerouting air lines. I am going to sell my small metal cutting bandsaw and an enormous old power hacksaw that I made about 50 years ago when I was doing a lot of wrought iron railing, and my dewatering manifold for my air compressor. My machinists equipment has spilled over into my main garage to the point that I am taking flak from "She who parks her car in the garage". I'm tired tonight, but the garage is a lot cleaner and more organized.---Brian

[Kim]

Yeah, I've done that recently

It does feel good to get it cleaned up, doesn't it?!
Kim

[Brian Rupnow]

Yayyyyyy!!!--I sold my old wood-cutting bandsaw which I added a shaft and pulleys to so it would cut metal for $200, and last night I sold my 50 year old power hacksaw for $100. This frees up considerable room in my main garage (On the side where I used to park my hot-rod), and leaves lots of room on my wife's side of the garage to park her Honda. I have just had two weeks of not making anything, and I'm enjoying the break. I'm still doing a bit of machine design for an old customer, and right now that seems to be enough to fill up my time.---Brian

[ptross]

New member and have just now seen this post. congratulations on a great new saw.
there are manuals available for download at the OWWM site, and a wealth of information there.
Do-All have their own alignment procedure, as the blade needs to be aligned with the guide post (which is not adjustable) first, and not just between the two wheels. One manual I looked at gives instructions for this on page 7.
 
http://www.vintagemachinery.org/pubs/256/18271.pdf

these are great saws, I hope you enjoy yours for many years to come!

Peter