Author Topic: Insert Grooving and Parting Tools  (Read 1691 times)

Offline Roger B

  • Global Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5391
  • Switzerland
Insert Grooving and Parting Tools
« on: August 25, 2021, 10:55:07 AM »
I have been looking at insert type grooving and parting tools rather than my somewhat roughly ground HSS ones. They need to be used in both my Hobbymat, max 10mm square tools, and my Proxxon FD150, was max 6mm now is max 8mm square tools.

I would like a minimum groove width of 0.5mm for E clips and possibly 1 and 1.5mm for piston ring grooves.

The tool size and groove widths take me away from normal ‘industrial’ ranges like from APT.

https://www.shop-apt.co.uk/grooving-tools-inserts.html

Various member have spoken highly of Nikcole Mini systems. My local supplier offers Applitec which seems similar and a little cheaper.

http://niko-nikcole.com/nikcole-mini-systems-2/

https://www.applitec-tools.com/products/top-line/

Both seem to offer a similar range with angled cut off tools and flat and round grooving tools.

Are there any other possible suppliers? Anything I may have missed? The biggest problem I see with my local supplier is buying inserts in boxes of 10  ::)
Best regards

Roger

Offline jadge

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 486
  • Cambridge, UK
Re: Insert Grooving and Parting Tools
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2021, 11:09:28 AM »
I use an insert parting tool and a similar insert tool to that linked when turning with the hydraulic copy unit, all under power feed:



My experience of insert grooving tools with manual feed is that they chatter badly when trying to sneak up on dimensions. For accurate grooves with manual feed I use HSS.

Andrew

Offline steamer

  • Global Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11717
  • Central Massachusetts, USA
Re: Insert Grooving and Parting Tools
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2021, 12:05:51 PM »
Nickole. Work nice.  I like them alot
"Mister M'Andrew, don't you think steam spoils romance at sea?"
Damned ijjit!

Online Vixen

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2475
  • Hampshire UK
Re: Insert Grooving and Parting Tools
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2021, 12:13:47 PM »
The unit cost of the Nickole tooling, plus shipping, plus import tax and VAT taxes; makes them unattractive to those on the east side of the big pond.

The Applitec system also looks good and a potential alternative

So Roger B, can you point us in the right direction for a price list and a supplier of Applitec goodies?

Cheers

Mike
It is the journey that matters, not the destination

Oh! sod the journey, lets hit the bar and pool instead.

Online Jasonb

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8354
  • Surrey, UK
Re: Insert Grooving and Parting Tools
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2021, 12:31:18 PM »
I bought my Nickole from a UK supplier who also sells individual insert so may be better for you. Their Uk one is their European outlet.

Have a look at MSC's catalogue page 490 & 491 https://edition.pagesuite.com/html5/reader/production/default.aspx?pubname=&pubid=9c3eabd2-e3ba-4a9f-8bd3-aa6475bd6e37&_ga=2.169870624.1840664120.1629890505-2118996490.1628756852&_gac=1.118639099.1629890505.CjwKCAjw1JeJBhB9EiwAV612yyKSjPWCXg_vXJqKpG-IJg4eTROgDs9Fue9ArcimtX-zADLPXNX7pRoCw6cQAvD_BwE

I ordered too large a holder and had to machine it down, did need some serious carbide to cut it but can be done, or you could buy one of the spare screws and have a go at making your own holder

I also have one of the MGMN holders from APT which I mostly keep a 1mm radius insert in which is nice for small fillets but you can't get inserts small enough for e-clips etc for that type, 2mm is the narrowest I have.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2021, 12:34:47 PM by Jasonb »

Offline Roger B

  • Global Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5391
  • Switzerland
Re: Insert Grooving and Parting Tools
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2021, 12:52:07 PM »
Mike,

My supplier is BR Tools, I don't know if they will ship to the UK, I don't see why not as Switzerland is not in the EU either.

https://www.brw.ch/en/top-line-730-740-cutting-depth-up-to-7-mm-ts_840534

The UK agent for Applitec is:

https://www.floydautomatic.co.uk/products.php?cat=288

Best regards

Roger

Online Jasonb

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8354
  • Surrey, UK
Re: Insert Grooving and Parting Tools
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2021, 01:01:32 PM »
I forgot to say MSC have a monthly discount flyer that they send out but it is also on their website, they often have the Nickole starter set and some of the individual inserts in there at 40% or more off catalogue price so I usually wait for that if I need a top up.

Online Vixen

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2475
  • Hampshire UK
Re: Insert Grooving and Parting Tools
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2021, 01:18:24 PM »
Thanks Roger and Jason,

Both systems are still quite spendy. I will sign up with MSC and wait to see what their offers look like.

Of the two systems, the mounting arrangement of the Applitec looks the most rigid.


Lets hope other members have discovered other alternatives

Mike
It is the journey that matters, not the destination

Oh! sod the journey, lets hit the bar and pool instead.

Offline dieselpilot

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 332
Re: Insert Grooving and Parting Tools
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2021, 02:58:37 PM »
Utilis, Horn. You can't do better than tools made for Swiss lathe applications. They cost a small fortune though. Also Thinbit in the US. The older Kennametal Top Notch system is great for shallow grooves. Deep grooving gets expensive no matter which supplier you choose. I had poor luck with Nickole, but it seems like my holders were quite soft. Well, they worked fine until I broke an insert and the pocket got loose. For hobby use the biggest expense is the minimum order for inserts. You may as well spend the money, because by the time you get around to buying more, the price will be up substantially. I remember buying Nickole inserts for 9-11USD when I first started, now I can't justify the cost for the performance. For big name tooling in the US, you have to contact a distributor and get a quote. Smaller distributors are easier to work with, but they can't do anything about minimum orders on inserts, usually 5-10 per part number. If someone like MSC will sell a single insert the price is high. With patience, you can find great deals on Ebay, but study the catalogs well so you know what you're buying.

Online Dan Rowe

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1162
  • Dripping Springs TX USA
Re: Insert Grooving and Parting Tools
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2021, 03:36:06 PM »
I ordered too large a holder and had to machine it down, did need some serious carbide to cut it but can be done, or you could buy one of the spare screws and have a go at making your own holder

Good to know what grade of carbide tool did you use?

I will have to give that a try as the smallest tool is too big for my lathe.

Cheers Dan
ShaylocoDan

Offline dieselpilot

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 332
Re: Insert Grooving and Parting Tools
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2021, 04:41:30 PM »
I cut a lot of holders to fit my lathe. Most holders are not very hard. However after ruining a few band saw and hacksaw blades trying to cut shanks that were soft outside and hard in the middle, I use any used carbide endmill. For thickness I use an insert face mill with positive inserts.

Online Dan Rowe

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1162
  • Dripping Springs TX USA
Re: Insert Grooving and Parting Tools
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2021, 05:14:15 PM »
A R Warner makes HSS inserts that will fit the Nikcole mini system holders.

https://www.arwarnerco.com/category-s/149.htm

Cheers Dan
ShaylocoDan

Offline kuhncw

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 210
Re: Insert Grooving and Parting Tools
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2021, 06:27:59 PM »
The A R Warner inserts work very well.

Chuck

Online Jasonb

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8354
  • Surrey, UK
Re: Insert Grooving and Parting Tools
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2021, 07:13:41 PM »
Unfortunately I don't know the full spec of the inserts. First I tried with my 40mm dia 3 insert tool that takes TPAN inserts and promptly took the corner off all three inserts.

https://www.glanze.co.uk/product/glanze-r8-indexable-endmill-40-mm-dia/

I then tried what is sold over here as a "little Hogger" which is a 1" dia 2 flute holder that again takes triangular inserts but I have only ever bought them from the holder supplier who does not give much detail. Shars do them in your neck of the woods This cut it without damage to the inserts but was hard going

https://www.shars.com/little-hogger-mill-set

If using a solid carbide mill I would go for one meant for 55-60HRC material ratherthan the usual basic 45HRC

I've milled down other tool shanks before but this was the hardest by a long way, guess you get what you pay for.

Offline stevehuckss396

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1503
  • Sterling Heights, MI USA
    • Steve's Miniature Sparkplugs
Re: Insert Grooving and Parting Tools
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2021, 09:13:16 PM »
I use the Nikcole system all the time. If you can get inserts I can provide a drawing to make your own holder. My holder is 1/2 inch square. I have made a 3/8 and even 2 holders 1/4 inch for the shurline lathe. Probably take an hour to make one.
Do not be like the cat who wanted a fish but was afraid to get his paws wet.

Offline steamer

  • Global Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11717
  • Central Massachusetts, USA
Re: Insert Grooving and Parting Tools
« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2021, 10:34:33 PM »
Mine was made to Steve's drawings and works very well!

Dave
"Mister M'Andrew, don't you think steam spoils romance at sea?"
Damned ijjit!

Offline petertha

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 491
Re: Insert Grooving and Parting Tools
« Reply #16 on: August 27, 2021, 05:19:03 AM »
I've sampled a few of the AliExpress specials, generically under MGEHR but you have to examine the symbiology variations (left, right, center, shank size, insert width, coatings.... etc). I'm quite pleased with them.
They are available from several sellers so check prices & delivery cost. Generally I tend to stick with machine/cnc tool stores, vs sellers offering machine tools, nail files & Pokemon cards.

The inserts can be confusing because they can have strange ways of describing them. Some provide a very complete looking matrix, only to find they only offer a smaller subset of them. So often I will do a separate search on the insert description. Sometimes its one stop shopping, tool & insert, sometimes not. I've had no issues cutting mild steel & non-nasty stainless to max allowable depth.

Offline Olli-Matti

  • Jr. member
  • **
  • Posts: 2
Re: Insert Grooving and Parting Tools
« Reply #17 on: August 27, 2021, 06:59:52 PM »
On a small lathes like you described, I've loved the above chinese tool holders with 1,5mm wide tools for aluminium. The sharp ground carbide tools with great rake are cutting very nicely. I did cut 40mm 42crmo4 bar with my Compact 8 24 grooves into 6-12mm deep when making my Nova-1 cylinder. Took 10-20min per groove (and there were 24 of them) but wen't without a hiccup with a 60kg table top lathe. No other tool could I get to cut without chatter.

Offline Roger B

  • Global Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5391
  • Switzerland
Re: Insert Grooving and Parting Tools
« Reply #18 on: August 27, 2021, 07:21:22 PM »
Thank you all for your thoughts and information  :)  :)  :wine1:

I will probably try the Applitec solution as it is local. As with many other things I will probably end up buying a lifetimes supply of inserts  ::) I have one of the larger insert parting tools from APT for machining crankshafts and I am still on the first of 10 reversible tips  ;)
Best regards

Roger

Offline Roger B

  • Global Moderator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5391
  • Switzerland
Re: Insert Grooving and Parting Tools
« Reply #19 on: November 11, 2021, 08:27:53 PM »
Having looked a little more closely at the B+R website they will sell individual inserts which makes things rather more civilised  :) I have ordered an 8mm holder and a few 0.5mm inserts.
Best regards

Roger