Author Topic: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build  (Read 101029 times)

Offline crueby

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14452
  • Rochester NY
Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
« Reply #30 on: March 14, 2021, 09:55:04 PM »
Oh, and if you ever get the chance, there is a wonderful old double beam engine pump station up in Hamilton Canada. Great air museum up there too. The beam engine is the old Victorian style, very ornate. They run it with an electric motor for tours so you can see the mechanism in action.

Offline derekwarner

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 775
  • Wollongong ...... Australia
Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
« Reply #31 on: March 14, 2021, 10:41:25 PM »
All very interesting work, with beautiful casting design and construction that we would, or could not readily build today

The appears a few inconstancies between the pipe work & components to the working model of the pump

We see  6 x B water pump chamber, each with its own air space above the water level........this level is able to be altered by a cross connection between each of the 6 chambers, so these air spaces each assist in minimising pulsation within the water discharge pressure

One reason for the air refill pipe work as such is that collapsing pressure fields of the check valves pulls air, so then is entrained ad this is progressively forced into the discharged pressurised water [as bubbles], so as needed or periodically, higher pressure air is forced into the 6 x airspaces to replace the lost cushion volume

However in the photograph, we also see a smaller singular vertical accumulator in the spooled T piece before the connection flange where the steam exhaust from the LP piston enters the condenser

So, from the photograph, it appears that the condenser is fed from the HP water spool  :toilet_claw:  with the condenser as shown in the model in an alternate location to the photograph  :shrug:

Derek
« Last Edit: March 14, 2021, 11:21:14 PM by derekwarner »
Derek L Warner - Honorary Secretary [Retired]
Illawarra Live Steamers Co-op - Australia
www.ils.org.au

Offline crueby

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14452
  • Rochester NY
Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
« Reply #32 on: March 15, 2021, 12:05:20 AM »
Those diagrams were done by the folks in Cincinnati about thier pump, they are not of the Holly pump in Buffalo, so any goofs are thiers. The old construction pics are also not from the Holly pumps. Thier pump is similar in size and layout, but there are differences, especially around the condensor and the reheaters.

Offline derekwarner

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 775
  • Wollongong ...... Australia
Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
« Reply #33 on: March 15, 2021, 12:51:39 AM »
Chris....they are all still absolutely magnificent pieces of engineering  :hammerbash:

Our current engineering Fraternity would have great difficulty in finding Trade qualified Pattern Makers who were able to, or had the knowledge of the myriad of dimensional allowance tables for shrinkage for all of the varying shapes, sizes, volumes and dimensions of components

All of the physical properties are well known in our Universities subjects like "Materials in Engineering", or "Engineerin Materials", however it is the unwritten knowledge gained from actual Foundry Apprenticeship's that are the missing element

As long as you build will not have all of bucket loads of check valves, all will be OK

Looking forward to the continuance  :cheers:   
Derek L Warner - Honorary Secretary [Retired]
Illawarra Live Steamers Co-op - Australia
www.ils.org.au

Offline crueby

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14452
  • Rochester NY
Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
« Reply #34 on: March 15, 2021, 01:08:04 AM »
Chris....they are all still absolutely magnificent pieces of engineering  :hammerbash:

Our current engineering Fraternity would have great difficulty in finding Trade qualified Pattern Makers who were able to, or had the knowledge of the myriad of dimensional allowance tables for shrinkage for all of the varying shapes, sizes, volumes and dimensions of components

All of the physical properties are well known in our Universities subjects like "Materials in Engineering", or "Engineerin Materials", however it is the unwritten knowledge gained from actual Foundry Apprenticeship's that are the missing element

As long as you build will not have all of bucket loads of check valves, all will be OK

Looking forward to the continuance  :cheers:
Yeah, stacking up a 60 foot tall pile of castings, and having them line up boggles my mind!

Offline MJM460

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1511
  • Melbourne, Australia
Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
« Reply #35 on: March 15, 2021, 10:29:33 AM »
Hi Chris, a great start to another great build.  I look forward to plenty of interesting reading to keep up with your build through the coming winter evenings. (Winter in this hemisphere, anyway.)

The valve design in the water cylinders is an interesting consequence of conservation of momentum, or Newton’s observation of a body continuing in a state of constant motion unless acted upon by........

The smaller valves gain much less momentum as they close, so are subject to a much smaller force when they hit the seat.  This force can easily destroy a larger valve.  Then multiple valves are used to achieve the required flow capacity.  But at 1/32 scale, the model valves are inherently much smaller, and subject to much lower force from the pressure, so will have much less momentum.  So unless you are really keen on some mass production of valves, I am sure that one valve in each chamber will do the job very reliably for you.

So many interesting details in a build of such a large machine.

MJM460

The more I learn, the more I find that I still have to learn!

Online Jo

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14678
  • Hampshire, england.
Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
« Reply #36 on: March 15, 2021, 11:39:05 AM »
Yeah, stacking up a 60 foot tall pile of castings, and having them line up boggles my mind!

Someone has just recovered from the idea of all those castings and now he wants to try experimenting to see if it is possible. The first problem is he is claiming is that he is short of castings   :facepalm:

Jo
Enjoyment is more important than achievement.

Offline Admiral_dk

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2713
  • Sřften - Denmark
Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
« Reply #37 on: March 15, 2021, 12:12:44 PM »
Thank you very much for the animated drawings Chris - helped to see / visualize the function :ThumbsUp:

Nice to see you back Jo - I had hoped that Surus would slow down on him bothering you  :cheers:

Per


Offline Dan Rowe

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1167
  • Dripping Springs TX USA
Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
« Reply #38 on: March 15, 2021, 01:25:01 PM »
Hi Chris, I knew about these engines and that they were for pumps but I never worked out where the pumps were. Thanks for the link to a bunch of pumping engines. I have been to the one at Hamiliton but now I have a bunch more to see.

Thinking about led's for lighting, there needs to be a current limiting resistor in series with the led which takes up space. Here is a small surface mount led with the resistor on the board. The holes will pass a 1.2mm or a 00-90 screw.
https://www.adafruit.com/product/1758

Cheers Dan
ShaylocoDan

Offline crueby

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14452
  • Rochester NY
Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
« Reply #39 on: March 15, 2021, 01:26:35 PM »
Yeah, stacking up a 60 foot tall pile of castings, and having them line up boggles my mind!

Someone has just recovered from the idea of all those castings and now he wants to try experimenting to see if it is possible. The first problem is he is claiming is that he is short of castings   :facepalm:

Jo
Hmmm, how about a version of the wooden kids blocks shaped like engine parts... Sounds like a fun toy set!

Offline crueby

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14452
  • Rochester NY
Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
« Reply #40 on: March 15, 2021, 01:34:12 PM »
Hi Chris, a great start to another great build.  I look forward to plenty of interesting reading to keep up with your build through the coming winter evenings. (Winter in this hemisphere, anyway.)

The valve design in the water cylinders is an interesting consequence of conservation of momentum, or Newton’s observation of a body continuing in a state of constant motion unless acted upon by........

The smaller valves gain much less momentum as they close, so are subject to a much smaller force when they hit the seat.  This force can easily destroy a larger valve.  Then multiple valves are used to achieve the required flow capacity.  But at 1/32 scale, the model valves are inherently much smaller, and subject to much lower force from the pressure, so will have much less momentum.  So unless you are really keen on some mass production of valves, I am sure that one valve in each chamber will do the job very reliably for you.

So many interesting details in a build of such a large machine.

MJM460
Can you imagine the size of a single ball type check valve equivalent to all those smaller ones (even they are inches across). It would be like the boulder that chased Indiana Jones!   :hellno:   The valves they used look more like IC engine valves/seats, each with a seating spring.

I was thinking that I may make the chambers down one side with cutaway sides to show the valves, 3D printed, and have the chambers down the other side have simple ball check valves of 1/4" or 3/8" size for function.

Offline crueby

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14452
  • Rochester NY
Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
« Reply #41 on: March 15, 2021, 01:40:17 PM »
Hi Chris, I knew about these engines and that they were for pumps but I never worked out where the pumps were. Thanks for the link to a bunch of pumping engines. I have been to the one at Hamiliton but now I have a bunch more to see.

Thinking about led's for lighting, there needs to be a current limiting resistor in series with the led which takes up space. Here is a small surface mount led with the resistor on the board. The holes will pass a 1.2mm or a 00-90 screw.
https://www.adafruit.com/product/1758

Cheers Dan
Those guys have some great led setups - saved that link!
I also found these on Amazon, really small ones with the resistors to run off different voltages, and solid wires so they dont droop down from a ceiling on the model:
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B07P8TQHDC/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Offline crueby

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14452
  • Rochester NY
Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
« Reply #42 on: March 15, 2021, 09:22:34 PM »
More done on the base plates - clamped the drill guide to each end of each of the plates, and drilled the larger diameter holes, which are the registration holes for the uprights and the plates to the floor. These holes were then tapped.

Next step is to drill all the smaller holes (2-56 tap size), which will hold the pump valve chambers and the corners of the uprights. For these, the drill guide was bolted down, and I am using the small Proxxon drill press since the drill needs to be 'pecked' going through, removing it frequently to help clear chips in these deep holes. The mill would work for this, but it takes a lot longer to crank it up/down than to just move the lever on the drill press. The little drill press has a good feel for this kind of work, and the drill guide self-aligns with the holes when starting as long as I dont hold the plate too hard till it gets started.


In the picture, the first side (on the right) has had all the holes drilled, and its ready to drill the set on the left. Once all three plates are drilled this way, I'll set up to do a similar pattern in the center of each plate for the main pump chamber. Then, LOTS of holes to tap! Going to be at this stage for a while.... (whenever these jobs come up, the shop elves always have excuses, doctor appointments, trade shows, elf conventions, whatever, so they can't help out! )

Offline gary.a.ayres

  • Full Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1283
  • Isle of Skye & sometimes France
Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
« Reply #43 on: March 16, 2021, 12:36:05 AM »
Wow... the original is a veritable Leviathan!

Your CAD model is a work of art in itself, and no doubt your model will be even more so.

A fabulous project in skilled hands such as yours...

 :popcorn:

Offline crueby

  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14452
  • Rochester NY
Re: Chris's Holly Pumping Engine Build
« Reply #44 on: March 16, 2021, 12:59:06 AM »
Wow... the original is a veritable Leviathan!

Your CAD model is a work of art in itself, and no doubt your model will be even more so.

A fabulous project in skilled hands such as yours...

 :popcorn:
Thanks Gary! I was hooked when I walked in the door of the pump station and looked up (and up) at the row of five of these beasts!