Model Engine Maker

Engines => From Kits/Castings => Topic started by: Old Bill on November 26, 2018, 08:14:32 PM

Title: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on November 26, 2018, 08:14:32 PM
I can't quite believe it but it was November 2012 when I signed up having bought a set of castings for Heinz Kornmuller's Mercedes aero engine from The Engineer's Emporium. My intention was to finish off my Thornycroft lorry and then have a go at something smaller. Well, I have almost finished the lorry and have started on the engine! I have been taking some photos which I would like to share. The first is Heinz original engine so that you can see what I am on about.

(https://i.postimg.cc/6q9Jtkx7/Merc50.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Jo on November 26, 2018, 08:23:36 PM
Hello Stranger,  ;)

 :headscratch: I am sure you just showed me your castings but they seem to have gone again. Have you been talking to Jason?

Jo
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on November 26, 2018, 08:26:20 PM
Hi Jo. None stranger!

I am struggling to drop photos in with captions at the moment. I will get it sussed shortly. Any advice please?

Steve
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Jo on November 26, 2018, 08:28:22 PM
The photos need to be hosted on a photo hosting site like photosuckit and the links dropped into the post between the text.

Jo
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on November 26, 2018, 08:31:16 PM
Thanks! I will return!

Steve
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Jo on November 26, 2018, 08:38:25 PM
That's what they all say to me as they gather up their castings and run  :-\

Jo
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on November 26, 2018, 09:00:08 PM
OK. Got it!

I decided to start with the crank case. Now, all of the castings for this engine are a devil to hold.

(https://i.postimg.cc/x8SjHpDY/DSCN7834.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

I dogged the top half to my Taiwanese mill and skimmed the ends to give myself a datum. I also ran a mill along the feet for another straight edge.

(https://i.postimg.cc/jqzSKTPj/DSCN7835.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

The a bit of messing with the height gauge to find the centres.

(https://i.postimg.cc/28r8St77/DSCN7836.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Then drill and bore for the con rods. Now, the drawings for this engine could be a bit clearer and show more of the detail. Fortunately, I was switched-on enough to think of the block hold-down studs and took the opportunity to centre for them and the push rod bushes by coordinate drilling. In other words, by counting the numbers on the dials. One day, I am going to invest in a DRO!

(https://i.postimg.cc/tCkRZzrQ/DSCN7837.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Then I turned it over and skimmed it to thickness using a pile of slips and a clock gauge to measure it.

(https://i.postimg.cc/QdM8pWPB/DSCN7838.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Spot face and hold-down holes.

(https://i.postimg.cc/L5TSPH3B/DSCN7840.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

First component well on the way!

(https://i.postimg.cc/3NC8ZjYG/DSCN7839.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

I must admit that I am enjoying this one. It is so nice to be able to lift everything and to be able to fit it onto the machine with space to spare! Sump next. Then I am going to be looking for some advice as to how to drill the crank and camshaft holes.

Watch this space!

Steve    :)
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: sco on November 26, 2018, 09:10:29 PM
Looks like some nice castings Bill and I can appreciate the challenge in holding them for machining.  Are the drawings in metric or imperial?

Simon.
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on November 26, 2018, 09:34:48 PM
Hello Bill,

Beautiful castings and some fine machining also, this will be a fun project to follow.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on November 26, 2018, 09:51:42 PM
Cool engine and nice work on your part Steve.
I'm looking forward to following along with your project.

Dave
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on November 26, 2018, 09:53:23 PM
Looks like some nice castings Bill and I can appreciate the challenge in holding them for machining.  Are the drawings in metric or imperial?

The castings are quite nice and haven't been over-fettled. I would much rather clean them up myself as foundries tend to be a bit brutal to say the least! The drawings are all metric. However, my workshop is imperial so my calculator is now sitting on the bench. I am making the engine in metric units to drawing but am using BA threads as they are what I have and am tooled up to handle.

Steve   :)
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on November 26, 2018, 10:31:35 PM
Great start Steve. Following along as well.

Bill
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: stevehuckss396 on November 27, 2018, 01:00:19 AM
Good work. I'll be following along. I like the engine as far as how it looks. Great project.
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Art K on November 27, 2018, 04:23:10 AM
Steve,
I must admit having a soft spot in my heart for aircraft engines. So I will be following along.
Art
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Jasonb on November 27, 2018, 07:14:20 AM
You are off to a good start and thanks for taking the trouble to host the photos externally so that you can post in the thread, it makes it so much easier and enjoyable to follow like that.
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Fowellbox on November 27, 2018, 08:20:26 AM
This looks to be an interesting project (not that I need another one) but I tried to find details on The Engineers Emporium and there's nothing about it on there. Is another company doing the castings and drawings?
Brian
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Jasonb on November 27, 2018, 08:36:12 AM
Engineers Emporium still do the castings and a whole lot more but don't put them on their website :facepalm:

Best to ask for a copy of their catalogue
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: sco on November 27, 2018, 08:44:49 AM
Engineers Emporium still do the castings and a whole lot more but don't put them on their website :facepalm:

Best to ask for a copy of their catalogue

Useful to know - I had a look on their website and gave up in the end as it's a complete mess.

Simon.
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: RayW on November 27, 2018, 11:42:39 AM
Hi Simon,
Their October 2017 price list shows castings, gears and drawings at £315. Their code is MER1C

Ray
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: RayW on November 27, 2018, 11:50:49 AM
Try this link Simon.
http://www.theengineersemporium.com/catalogue-pages/petrolengcastingkits.html

Regards

Ray
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: sco on November 27, 2018, 12:11:02 PM
Thanks Ray!  Apologies for diluting your build thread Steve - please keep up the good work on the build log :-)

Simon.
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Jo on November 27, 2018, 05:59:06 PM
 8) How much spare was there on that casting? Mine seems to have about 5mm top to bottom but the other measurements look tight.

Have you thought about your crank Steve? Are you going to do a made up one like the drawings show or make from solid?

Jo

P.S. Best tell Father Xmas that your milling machine needs a DRO  :mischief:
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on November 27, 2018, 09:23:24 PM
Apologies for diluting your build thread Steve - please keep up the good work on the build log :-)

Simon.

That's quite alright Simon. I see a forum as a bunch of mates sitting in a pub talking about whatever the subject may be, asking for advice and wandering off down all sorts of alleyways. It's all part of the fun! I am certainly going to be asking for advice!

In the meantime, Jo, the castings are not very generous but are OK. One has to be careful as I have already found and will tell you about in a day or two. The crankshaft is pressed together with all of the bearings and rods fitted but I have not yet thought it through how to do it. That is another discussion to have shortly. Meanwhile, the next part will be the sump.

Steve  :)
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on November 28, 2018, 09:39:46 PM
The sump is also an awkward casting to hold. I gave in in the end and simply gripped it gently in the vice whilst I skimmed the joint face.

(https://i.postimg.cc/L5RRhqL8/DSCN7841.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Then turned it over and skimmed the other faces.

(https://i.postimg.cc/BvLJzfJ4/DSCN7845.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

The two castings match and line up very well so it was simply a case of centre popping the bolt holes by eye and spotting through before tapping. I will make some proper studs eventually but, for the moment, they are held together with bolts.

(https://i.postimg.cc/rwY8gwXf/DSCN7844.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Now, this brings me to the first major challenge. How do I put the crank and camshaft holes through and keep all three holes in line? The crank shouldn't be too bad, in fact, as the reaming size is 1/2" dia. This should be big enough not to wander too much in the centre bearing if I am gentle. However, the camshaft holes are to be reamed 8mm and the last hole is 150mm from the first. How should I go about keeping them in line? My current plan is to use the vertical slide on the Myford to hold the case and use the dials to control the centre distances. I can start the holes in the right place OK but where they go after that eludes me. I would value some advice please!

Steve  :) 
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Jasonb on November 29, 2018, 07:23:53 AM
Drill them out to 12mm an 7.5mm respectively and then make up a couple of between ctr boring bars. A 10mm or even 11/16" dia one should not be a problem to make but for the cam use some 7/32" rod, you won't have room for a grub screw from the side to retain the bit so drill in from one end say 25mm long 2.5mm and then tap the first 10mm or so M3. You can now slip in a bit of 7/32" stock and then use a M3 grub screw to push that against a small HSS toolbit.

In use the bar can be used to do one end almost to size, then swap it end for end to open up the other end and then finally take that to size. Then without altering the tool bit swap it back round to do the first hole which will ensure they are both the same size.

Probably do similar with the crank as it saves having to have a bar that is at least twice the length of the block.
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Jo on November 29, 2018, 08:23:45 AM
Morning Steve,

As the case is a difficult shape to hold I would start by mounting it on a jig which would give a nice large flat reference/clamping surface that is square to the casting  ;) Then the centres of both the crankshaft and camshaft can be marked & Centre popped.

Using an angle plate mount the cylinder, centre on the crankshaft hole then drill/bore. Turn end over end and do the other crankshaft bore (this keeps the offset distance to the bottom of the crankshaft equal). Using a long drill, drill a hole in the centre bearing around 10.5mm leaving space to line bore shortly. Do the same for the camshaft holes drilling the centre bearing 6.5mm.

Turn up 4 bronze bushes to fit the four outer holes, bored to fit the between centres boring bars which are going to be used to cut the centre bearings =10mm and 6.35mm dia respectively. As the centre bearings are bushed it is not critical to get it spot on as you can turn the bush to fit, what is important is getting it in line  :)

The between centre boring bars can now be made as short as possible with the bushes reducing the unsupported length of the boring bars to about 140mm. You can use your vertical slide, if you wish, to hold the case still on its jig for boring.

Jo

P.S. If you make both the crank and cam solid the centre bearings will need to be split  ::)


Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Jasonb on November 29, 2018, 08:44:32 AM
Jo have you modeled the inside of the crankcase to see if there is room to swing split big ends? looks to me to be rather tight on the cam shaft and the oil pan will probably need modification too.

Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Jo on November 29, 2018, 08:56:27 AM
Heinz in his instructions says it is possible if you reduce the big end diameter to 10mm which is more than adequate for the bore/stroke.

I am currently modelling a Tulip  ::)

Jo
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Jasonb on November 29, 2018, 10:20:20 AM

I am currently modelling a Tulip  ::)

Jo

Don't forget you can always ask any questions about Alibre in the thread on ME relating to the 6month free trial :LittleDevil:
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Jo on November 29, 2018, 10:57:58 AM
That sounds like an advert  :ShakeHead:, I am more interested in Steve's build of his engine  :)

Jo
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on November 29, 2018, 09:50:41 PM
Thank you Jo and Jason. Plenty of food for thought there. The one that is challenging me is how to put the middle hole in for the cam shaft as I can see it wandering all over the place. The hole will go through the joint line between the casting and the bearing cap and i don't suppose that they will be flush. No doubt it will become obvious in due course.

Steve   :) 
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: steamer on November 30, 2018, 12:20:44 AM
Thank you Jo and Jason. Plenty of food for thought there. The one that is challenging me is how to put the middle hole in for the cam shaft as I can see it wandering all over the place. The hole will go through the joint line between the casting and the bearing cap and i don't suppose that they will be flush. No doubt it will become obvious in due course.

Steve   :)

Drill undersize, and then bore the middle.   Start with a good stiff spotting drill, and it won't wander around.   Boring bar will bring it to size and assure proper position...a drill just makes a hole.

Dave
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Jasonb on November 30, 2018, 07:21:20 AM
Get yourself a long series centre drill, or loctite an 1/8" one in the end of a bit of rod.

Though a small amount of wander won't be so critical as unlike reaming the between ctrs bar won't try and follow the hole.
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Jo on November 30, 2018, 07:10:03 PM
The one that is challenging me is how to put the middle hole in for the cam shaft as I can see it wandering all over the place. The hole will go through the joint line between the casting and the bearing cap and i don't suppose that they will be flush.

The cam is in solid metal, the crank on the joint line - Yes highly unlikely the two bits will be flush  :facepalm: Maybe file/grind the two castings as close as you can true then drill undersized and bore a little more off between centres. At least on the crank you have more to play with so can use a larger diameter boring bar to keep it true :)

Jo

Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Vixen on November 30, 2018, 07:36:19 PM
+1 for ensuring the two castings a truly flat and fit correctly BEFORE you drill and bore the journals. Use some engineers blue to test for flat and fit.

Mike
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Jasonb on November 30, 2018, 08:08:45 PM
Fot the two part crank ctr bearing You could bolt on an over width cap and then mill either side of the cap and the part in the main casting to flush up both sides and bring to final width.

I assume there is a boss cast in for the cam ctr bearing which you should be able to mill the sides of with a small cutter.

You can always but a facing cutter into the between ctrs boring bar to flush things up after pilot drilling.

(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Hit%20n%20Miss/1-3rd%20Monitor/IMAG2345_zps4c3359ec.jpg)
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on November 30, 2018, 08:23:27 PM
You are quite right, Jo, the camshaft goes through a solid divider in the middle of the crank case. It is in the corner though so it will take a bit of care.

I like the idea of the extended centre drill. I did buy an over-length one but it is just not quite long enough. Lots of good ideas and thoughts here.

Many thanks,

Steve
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on December 01, 2018, 10:38:04 PM
Now that I have a crank case, I thought I would have a go at the cylinder blocks. Again, these are most awkward castings to hold!

(https://i.postimg.cc/Jhd1ZZgp/DSCN7866.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/xddfXtsk/DSCN7867.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

There are very few good datum faces on the things so I held them by the base flange in the vice and took a skim across the top.

(https://i.postimg.cc/pVYR4ZMh/DSCN7846.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Then turned them upside down and dogged them to the table. This worked out OK but there is very little meat on the base flange so  so I had little room to manoeuvre.

(https://i.postimg.cc/9FLVFQMc/DSCN7847.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

I skimmed them to height across the base and then ran around the periphery to clean to size. Using the wonderful edge finder, I datumned off the corner and drilled the stud holes. Then it was simply a case of boring to depth, or so I thought....

(https://i.postimg.cc/6QkBJbQR/DSCN7849.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/wvDg65tr/DSCN7850.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

One core was slightly off-set so the casting only just had enough metal to clean. What I didn't realise until later was that I hadn't quite got the casting upright when I skimmed the top and, of course, this compounded the core problem. To clean up properly, I have bored it oversize by 1.5mm and will have to make a thick liner. Not insurmountable but annoying carelessness on my part.

(https://i.postimg.cc/PrXTjwd6/DSCN7852.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/ydhCqVt4/DSCN7853.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Still, at least the stud holes lined up!

(https://i.postimg.cc/jSCTWYwP/DSCN7854.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Then the next googly. The dummy core-plug bosses fouled so that I couldn't put the blocks close enough to bolt them both down.

(https://i.postimg.cc/FHq43C3q/DSCN7855.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

These were removed and I polished the ends with a needle file so that you wouldn't know they were missing.

(https://i.postimg.cc/k4PPhVjv/DSCN7857.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Well, it is beginning to look like an engine, anyway!

(https://i.postimg.cc/DzXKgQcz/DSCN7859.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

The centres of the blocks need to be in line so that the rocker shaft lines up across the tops. First job was to find a centre line. This was another puzzle due to the difficult shape. However, With the base flange on one parallel and a second underneath a clean part of the water jacket, I scribed an approximate centre line before turning the block over and repeating from the other side giving me two lines quite close together.

(https://i.postimg.cc/FRdhZ1XN/DSCN7862.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

At least I can see the problem. One block lies 1.3mm out of line with the other.

(https://i.postimg.cc/vZbHsQft/DSCN7863.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Whilst I ponder what to do about it, I have removed the pattern marks.

(https://i.postimg.cc/Prmr9Lpq/DSCN7860.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Five minutes with the Dremel and that is something else ticked off.

(https://i.postimg.cc/Mp5ZZhY2/DSCN7861.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

I have been out playing trains today and have guests tomorrow but hope to pick the job up again in the week.

Steve   :)
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on December 02, 2018, 12:56:15 AM
Hello Steve,

Looking real good. :ThumbsUp:

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Jo on December 02, 2018, 09:36:19 AM
 :thinking: Could you gently file the bottom clamping surface to adjust the angle to pull the top of the cylinder over in line?

I was allowed to fondle my cylinder castings this morning and there seems to be about 5mm top to bottom spare and 2mm on the clamping flange along its length. The width has nothing spare  :ShakeHead:

I know you have been aging your castings for a while Steve, I seem to recall the earlier cylinders did not have the water jacket cast in does yours? I don't think the slightly thicker liners will effect the water jacket  :)

Jo
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Roger B on December 02, 2018, 12:13:53 PM
Excellent progress  :praise2:  :praise2:  and some fun challenges with the castings  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp:  :wine1:
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on December 02, 2018, 07:51:34 PM
Thanks Thomas and Roger. The moral support is always appreciated!

I had been thinking about just filing a slight run across the base but I would rather machine it if I can work out how to hold it.

These castings have the water space cast in and the liners are pressed in to seal. (Wet liners). The thicker liner will be fine and even if it is left a whisker leaning once I have skimmed the base, then that will be of no consequence. I hope to have an evening in the shed this week so we can see how it goes.

Steve  :) 
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Jasonb on December 02, 2018, 08:15:08 PM
machine a bit of 1/4 flat with the desired angle which can be done easily by packing in the vice or pack the base of the vice.

Now clamp it down onto your tapered packer as you had it for machining the underside and bores.

Alternative would clamp it down to the mill table with a feeler gauge under one side to give it some tilt. Or pack a solid steel plate with feeler gauge/shim stock to get teh angle an dclamp the head down onto that, less likely to mark the top as it will be supported over whole area.

Agree machining will give a far flatter surface then filing.
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on December 07, 2018, 05:46:41 PM
Well, I have managed to find a couple of workshop hours this week and took the opportunity to bring the blocks into line. As Jason suggested, I took a piece out of the drawer and machined a run across it using some shim stock under the edge.

(https://i.postimg.cc/02fQPsdg/DSCN7868.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Then set it up and checked with the DTI to make sure it was right. (It wasn't!)

(https://i.postimg.cc/nLsc4Q8Z/DSCN7869.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

After that, it was quite simple.

(https://i.postimg.cc/4dVfMkNS/DSCN7871.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Success!

(https://i.postimg.cc/KvFz6zTr/DSCN7872.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Next job is to start putting some holes in the top so I have clamped a datum to the table to allow for quick setting up and movement should it be necessary.

(https://i.postimg.cc/VkkNNVDJ/DSCN7873.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/Zq1YVKZN/DSCN7874.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

The valve holes are partially cored in so I used a nice new slot drill as a pilot. One of the nicest things I am finding with this job is that I have put away a number of brand new cutters over the years and saved them for 'best'. Well, this is 'best'!

(https://i.postimg.cc/yxK1CQDY/DSCN7875.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

I have also treated myself to some new reamers as I don't have any metric tools. This one turned up on Wednesday, just in time. I am doing something wrong with it though as it 'picked up' in two of the holes despite my best endeavours to keep the flutes clear.

(https://i.postimg.cc/fRqRSfrB/DSCN7876.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

I also managed to mis-read my dials and get one hole 0.010" out of position which is annoying for the sheer carelessness. I should know better by now. Oh well. I shall have to take Jo's advice and treat myself to a DRO.

A few more holes this weekend with a bit of luck.

Steve  :) 
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Jo on December 07, 2018, 06:13:03 PM
 :)

A few more holes this weekend with a bit of luck.

 :o

Its the weekend Steve and you are thinking about machining a model engine  :hellno: The weather looks to be  good.... are you not going down to stroke one of your lorries?   :noidea:

Jo
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Vixen on December 07, 2018, 07:59:56 PM
The weather looks to be  good.... are you not going down to stroke one of your lorries?   :noidea:

Hello Stranger

Nothing wrong with that, considering the number of years you have put into each of them.

That was an excellent fix on the base flange of the errant cylinder block.

Do you have any Trefolex cutting paste? It is perfect for stopping drills. taps and reamers and even milling cutters from picking up in softish aluminium castings.

Mike
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on December 07, 2018, 09:29:54 PM
Hi Mike and Jo.

The lorry I mentioned in my intro in 2012 has taken 29 years to get to this stage and we plan to finish it over Christmas. A few more days are neither here nor there! In the meantime, I am thoroughly enjoying machining something that is smaller than the mill and cutting 7BA instead of 1/2" BSW. It is great to do some model engineering indoors in a heated workshop. (Perhaps I am getting old...) Living 200 miles from the lorry doesn't help much either. I'll post some recent pictures on my intro in a moment and some more engine this weekend if I have no disasters!

I tend to use WD40 as the cutting agent on aluminium and that seems to work quite well for general machining. I think I let the flutes choke on the reamer and should have stopped the machine to clear them half way through the cut. It is all part of the learning process.

Steve   :)
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Vixen on December 07, 2018, 10:41:16 PM
Hello Steve

Agreed, WD40 is fine for general machining, but for those high load conditions such as threading, reaming or key way cutting a little Trefolex cutting paste significantly reduces friction and the risk of aluminium cold welding (picking up) to the steel tool. Try it, it's got to be better than white spirit with a dash of mineral oil. AKA   WD40

Mike
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Vixen on December 07, 2018, 11:49:21 PM

A few more holes this weekend with a bit of luck.

Steve  :)

Wasn't it 'Old Bill' who said, " If you knows a better 'ole..... go for it"

Mike
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Jasonb on December 08, 2018, 07:17:28 AM
You are also using a hand reamer in the mill so run it slowly as the longer cutting edge puts more load on it.

On long small holes you need to clear the flutes quite often, though this will depend on the size of your pilot as to how much is to come off.

Good to see the cylinders all lined up now.
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on December 08, 2018, 08:09:46 AM

Wasn't it 'Old Bill' who said, " If you knows a better 'ole..... go for it"

Mike

Quite right!

Steve   :) 
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on December 08, 2018, 08:12:24 AM
You are also using a hand reamer in the mill so run it slowly...

Thanks Jason. It is a while since I did this sort of thing and I forget. You are quite right about it cold welding. Notjhing I can't get over but annoying all the same. Hopefully, I will be back up to speed by the time I finish!

Steve   :)
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: sco on December 08, 2018, 10:09:30 AM
Following your build closely Steve.  I've put one of these casting kits on my Christmas list so fingers crossed  ;D

Keep up the good work,

Simon.
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: john mills on December 08, 2018, 10:43:57 AM
I would rather use one of the soluble cutting fluids normal coolant if you can flow plenty down the hole it can flush
the chips out as well.if you can contain it to the machine.i have found a work shop when working one of the contractors using wd40 machining alloy the workshop was un usable for the rest of the day with the fumes
they would burn your eyes.why not use a proper cutting fluid.it does work.
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on December 09, 2018, 08:33:02 PM
I don't machine aluminium very often so I am not really set up for it. I do have soluble suds oil that I use with steel. Would that be appropriate with aluminium?

In the mean time, I have made a very little progress with the cylinder blocks. First job was to finish drilling the holes in the top so the coolant holes and the holes for the rocker shaft pillars were completed.

(https://i.postimg.cc/HkGscjhF/DSCN7877.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Then it was on to the exhaust ports. These were milled off using the drilling set-up and then marked across with the height gauge to keep them in line. Finally, the block was held square against and angle plate and simply supported with a piece of wood whilst I put the holes in.

(https://i.postimg.cc/pX5LLKqD/DSCN7878.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

All uneventful.

(https://i.postimg.cc/kMp5CTFJ/DSCN7879.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Now it is time for the more difficult angled holes. I have been puzzling how to achieve these for a while. Eventually, I decided on a mounting plate with a spigot that I could hold in the dividing head. I made the plate slightly longer than the base of the block so that I could get a good hold of it in the vice.

(https://i.postimg.cc/1X2RKz5n/DSCN7880.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

I faced off the water inlets and drilled them through.

(https://i.postimg.cc/PqytRy5k/DSCN7881.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

The mixture inlet holes are at a compound angle, defined in the drawings as 18° up and 34° rotated. I set up my dividing head and elevated it by 18° and rotated it.

(https://i.postimg.cc/6QtWcgw0/DSCN7882.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Unfortunately, the alignment doesn't look quite right to me so I need to think some more on this one. It is essential that the port comes out above the valve seat of course!

(https://i.postimg.cc/Z5rYr4kn/DSCN7884.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

I am also pondering on whether to drill the valve guides before inserting them or by drilling through the ports. There are a few challenges in this engine!

Steve   :) 
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: john mills on December 09, 2018, 09:33:56 PM
with coolant i have never changed the coolant on a machine to cut alloy or different materials.
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Art K on December 09, 2018, 11:12:36 PM
Steve,
Still following along. Never built an engine from castings yet. But I can see where it would be frustrating to see the assigned angle dimensions don't line up. How are the rest of them, do they all mismatch in the same place?
Art
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on December 16, 2018, 08:42:54 PM
Hi Art.

The dimensions on the drawings are accurate but are a bit scant in places. There is a note next to these inlet holes which says to check the casting and I feel that the position of these is very susceptible to casting variation. In the end, I have laid it all out on the drawing board at five times full-size after measuring the actual castings and have calculated the angles to suit.

I managed to find a couple of hours this afternoon and tried setting it up to the new numbers. It looks a lot better.

(https://i.postimg.cc/C5Y9F5Mp/DSCN7885.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Then it was just a case of using a centre drill and taking my courage in both hands.

(https://i.postimg.cc/MZbh97t6/DSCN7886.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Fortunately, it worked satisfactorily although I do seem to be a whisker off-centre. Nothing I cant live with.

(https://i.postimg.cc/xTfBhXFK/DSCN7887.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

I finally faced the flange (at yet another angle) and drill the holes for the studs.

(https://i.postimg.cc/sDTbr3tb/DSCN7888.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

I'll do the other tomorrow and then only the spark plug holes will remain.

Making progress if a lot slower than I would like. This earning a living business seriously gets in the way!

Steve :)
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Vixen on December 16, 2018, 08:58:47 PM
Hello Steve,

Using a centre cutting end mill or slot drill is sometimes a more accurate way of starting a hole at an acute angle to the surface. Even a stubby centre drill will try to deflect to one side due to the angled point,  An end mill does not have this problem.

You will also get deflection if you try to enlarge the angled pilot hole with a larger drill, again an end mill or slot drill will avoid this deflection.

Mike
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Art K on December 17, 2018, 03:12:14 AM
Steve,
I'm with Mike even if you only use the endmill to give you a flat spot to keep the hole from walking. Sounds like you have to make due with a lack of good prints that actually match what you have for print dimensions. I'm not sure what I'd have done in your shoes. Looks good.
Art
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on December 17, 2018, 09:49:30 PM
Thanks Chaps.

All good advice there. I have still to do the spark plug holes and they are on an awkward angle as well with a large spot-face to boot. If I do the spot face first, I will have a flat surface to drill which should help, just as long as it doesn't move. It is only held down with six 7BA bolts and I am a bit chary about using such a big cutter on it. I shall have to treat it very gingerly.

If I did this again, it would be a lot better!

Steve  :) 
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on December 22, 2018, 10:28:09 AM
Well, I had an hour out in the shed this week and some more proress has been made. The spark plug angles are shown on the drawing and look OK so I tried setting the dividing head to the appropriate angle. Unfortunately, I hit a snag....

(https://i.postimg.cc/yxtkLGBT/DSCN7889.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

After trying to win some height with a collet chuck, I gave up and set the mounting plate in the machine vice. It did the job but setting the angles was a lot more challenging. I put a dummy scriber in the chuck, picked up off the centre line of the block and then indexed across, remebering to lift the scriber before winding!

(https://i.postimg.cc/G35834Ys/DSCN7890.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/5NQHXfqK/DSCN7891.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

I made up a prop using a bit of rod with a bolt in the end to help stop it moving and then started off with a small slot drill to give myself a flat surface (Thanks Mike). A centre drill followed by pilot and tapping sizes were fine.

(https://i.postimg.cc/DznmpLVR/DSCN7892.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Finally a full-size spot-face.

(https://i.postimg.cc/rwSK9gHS/DSCN7893.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Then index across and both were done. They even came out the other side in the right place!

(https://i.postimg.cc/Sx0n8HgS/DSCN7894.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

I just have to tap all the holes and the block will be done. Unfortunately, I had my new taps sent to Father's address which was daft but I shall pick them up this weekend and then it will be time to start on the liners.

Now I must do the other block!

Happy Christmas everyone!

Steve    :)
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on December 22, 2018, 10:30:47 PM
Looks good Steve!

Dave
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on December 22, 2018, 10:59:49 PM
Hello Steve,

Good job and it is looking really good.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on January 04, 2019, 03:19:48 PM
Happy New Year everyone!

Well, I did get some workshop time over the holidays and started off by tapping the spark plug holes. I used my mounting plate to get the holes vertical and hold the block securely and, for anyone else contemplating this engine, I would say that the time spent making it was well worth it.

(https://i.postimg.cc/FKqPJPCM/DSCN7898.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Then it was onto the liners. A very nice piece of cast iron is included in the kit.

(https://i.postimg.cc/C1BQPyfM/DSCN7895.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Then it was a case of rough turn the outside before holding in my self-centring four-jaw and boring and turning to size. I used the four jaw as it doesn't get a lot of use and is still unworn. It also has a larger through-hole so I could bore without risk to the chuck!

(https://i.postimg.cc/cJ69Cqh7/DSCN7896.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/d1y5R8zL/DSCN7897.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/4dDFj8z6/DSCN7899.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

I made up a mandrel from a nice piece of free-cutting steel before turning the liners to size.

(https://i.postimg.cc/YqfyyzjF/DSCN7900.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

I did remember that I had over-bored one cylinder so I started with that one, just in case. In fact I got them all right first time but that was luck! I gave them all an interference of 0.001"

(https://i.postimg.cc/NF8bSQGt/DSCN7901.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/Mp93zZ7K/DSCN7902.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Then it was just a case of pressing them home.

(https://i.postimg.cc/PrkR4Rfh/DSCN7903.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/zvY0xyrp/DSCN7904.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

All successful! Valve guides next, from phosphor bronze. Horrible stuff!

Steve   :) 
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Vixen on January 04, 2019, 03:37:57 PM
Hello Steve,

Have you considered using SAE 660 Bronze bar for your valve guides?

If you do, you will find it a much more enjoyable experience than using PB.

Have a look at post 247 of my Mercedes Grand Prix engine build.

Cheers

Mike T
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: steamer on January 04, 2019, 06:21:28 PM
Coming along great Steve!
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on January 06, 2019, 10:38:02 AM
Thanks for that Mike. I hadn't thought of that. I am using stock from the drawer and have persisted but I wouldn't like to use the stuff for the quantity you have made! I always fancied a V-12 but I think I will stick to the straight four!

The guides were a straightforward turning job but I did set up my dividing head on the mill so I could do a quick change with the chuck for the cross-hole. That head was a very good investment.

(https://i.postimg.cc/SsBhjzK7/DSCN7910.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/NfwtcTSQ/DSCN7911.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Then it was just a case of pushing them in. I used a drop of Loctite on the one where the reamer had picked up, not to secure it but to make sure that it was sealed.

(https://i.postimg.cc/52gbp0Pb/DSCN7907.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/4NbgNyRV/DSCN7908.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/B6L3qCJn/DSCN7909.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/mr6Rfnfn/DSCN7912.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/WpZVCS99/DSCN7913.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

I ran a nice new reamer through for the valve stems and the job was done.

(https://i.postimg.cc/6QQwPXSR/DSCN7914.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/D01KGyJV/DSCN7916.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

This looks like a nice straightforward job but still took longer than anticipated. Never mind. It is the journey that counts. It will, after all, only be an ornament once completed!

Steve   :)

Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Vixen on January 06, 2019, 11:21:29 AM
This looks like a nice straightforward job but still took longer than anticipated. Never mind.

Steve   :)

Ha ha, isn't it always that way? Now it's done and they look nice, the job's a good 'um  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

What material are you proposing to use for the valves?

Mike
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Jo on January 06, 2019, 11:43:24 AM
Looking good Steve :)

This looks like a nice straightforward job but still took longer than anticipated. Never mind. It is the journey that counts. It will, after all, only be an ornament once completed!

I totally agree its the making that is the fun bit  :cartwheel:

I bet you are finding machining in a warm workshop nicer than being outside playing with your lorries at this time of the year  ::)

Jo
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: steamer on January 06, 2019, 02:42:18 PM
Looking good Steve :)

This looks like a nice straightforward job but still took longer than anticipated. Never mind. It is the journey that counts. It will, after all, only be an ornament once completed!

I totally agree its the making that is the fun bit  :cartwheel:

I bet you are finding machining in a warm workshop nicer than being outside playing with your lorries at this time of the year  ::)

Jo

It would for me for sure!
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Roger B on January 06, 2019, 04:20:15 PM
Looking good  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp: Did you align the holes with the ports by eye or do something cunning?
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on January 06, 2019, 07:38:35 PM
Nice update, the family shot looks great!

Dave
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on January 06, 2019, 09:33:20 PM

What material are you proposing to use for the valves?

Mike

Funny you should say that Mike. The drawing specified 'silver solder' which is a bit of a surprise! I take it as a misprint and am using silver steel. In fact, I have spent my time today trying to sort out a manufacturing process for them and, after consulting this fine forum, have taken the advice and made a prototype. They are secured with E-clips so I ground up a tool on the bench grinder to cut the groove. I then brought the stock out of the chuck and machined the final diameter in steps, leaving them about 0.0005 oversize to be cleaned up with emery. This worked out OK in the end and I have one almost-acceptable valve.

(https://i.postimg.cc/Y90nG1qG/DSCN7920.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/BvM7nhsf/DSCN7917.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

As you can see, I left a boss on the face and cut a screwdriver slot to help me lap it in.

(https://i.postimg.cc/KYZsb665/DSCN7918.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

This week's project it to make eight more, preferably all the same.

Steve   :) 


Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on January 06, 2019, 09:36:06 PM
Looking good  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp: Did you align the holes with the ports by eye or do something cunning?

Nothing cunning, I'm afraid, Roger. I looked down the top of the block and put two pencil marks in line with the edges of the ports, just by eye. I then aligned the the port in the guide with the pencil marks before pushing it home. They seem to be good enough but we shall see!

Steve   :)
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Roger B on January 09, 2019, 09:04:15 AM
Thank you  :ThumbsUp:

I have made my valves from stainless steel screws or bolts.
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on January 13, 2019, 09:08:24 AM
I now have eight valves. Glad it isn't a V-12!

(https://i.postimg.cc/m2K3MqLN/DSCN7923.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

I need some valve springs next. I did find a supplier on line but would get caught out by the minimum order charge of £50- which seems a bit steep so I shall be making them. Fortunately, Father gave me a spring winder kit for Christmas so that is the next exercise.

(https://i.postimg.cc/9QTdBpz3/DSCN7926.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

A workshop day beckons.

Steve   :) 
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on January 13, 2019, 09:29:48 PM
Well, I have had a pleasant weekend, making up my spring winder. The drawings are accurate and pretty good. A couple of missing dimensions but nothing serious. The only bit I hate doing is the knurling as it is so hard on the lathe. Fortunately, the bulk of it was in aluminium and I got away with it.

(https://i.postimg.cc/7P1jrkB5/DSCN7928.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

The pinch plate is tapered and can be indexed to set the pitch of the spring. I followed the drawings and made up an arbour with the end machined at an angle. The plate was bolted onto the end and just turned. All very satisfactory.

(https://i.postimg.cc/W1yHwb4H/DSCN7936.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/qRsDrsxP/DSCN7939.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/cHykP9w7/DSCN7940.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Time for a trial with the lathe set at lowest speed and me gripping the tool tightly.

(https://i.postimg.cc/TYCShcvG/DSCN7942.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

It does need practice to use to set the tension and get the mandrel diameter right but I had a few goes to start with.

(https://i.postimg.cc/rF838PbQ/DSCN7941.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

The last hour of the day was spent making up the valve springs themselves. It is nice to be able to get a couple of tight coils at the ends to grind flat.

(https://i.postimg.cc/HL7PZDcs/DSCN7944.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Job is done and the tool can go in the drawer ready for the next time!

Those springs represent quite an investment of time and effort but I have reached the conclusion that making tools and jigs is never time wasted and they are much more satisfying to use than a lash-up.

Spring caps next.

Steve   :)

Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: stevehuckss396 on January 13, 2019, 11:58:21 PM
Nice work! I have made springs myself so I can appreciate what you went through to get them made.
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Jo on January 14, 2019, 08:27:55 AM
I am sure I am missing something here Steve  :headscratch:

How does that actually work? Does the tapered disc rub against the mandrel to give the pitch? I guess the plastic disc is used for friction but how does that achieve the spring :noidea:

Jo

Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Ramon on January 14, 2019, 10:06:51 AM
That's a very quick but nicely made tool Steve with what looks to be some very consistent results  :ThumbsUp:

What significance do the numbered radial marks on the plate have?

Tug
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: dieselpilot on January 14, 2019, 02:35:23 PM
You can even buy these ready. http://www.flexbar.com/shop/pc/UNIVERSAL-SPRING-WINDER-p3773.htm I couldn't find a video of one being used though. The circular wedge seems to set the coil pitch and sounds like it can be adjusted during winding. I just don't understand how carriage feed comes into play. I've wound springs simply using a tensioner and carriage feed, with some hand feeding to make the closed ends.
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: steamer on January 14, 2019, 03:03:58 PM
I just ordered one of those diesel,  ..ill let you know what I think, but the price was right.

Dave
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Vixen on January 14, 2019, 03:47:36 PM
What is the opinion of the spring pressure required to close the valve. Obviously, too low a spring pressure will lead to problems at higher speeds, whereas too high a spring load will just beat up the valve gear to no performance benefit.
So what is the ideal range of spring pressure?
You can lower the spring rate by increasing to number of turns, or by increasing the coil diameter or by using thinner wire. But you need to know what spring rate you need to achieve

UPDATE go to the new topic 'Valve spring loads'

Mike
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on January 14, 2019, 08:59:43 PM
How does that actually work?

Jo
Hi Jo.

The knurled thumbwheel tightens the polythene disc onto the wire to set the tension. The tapered disc sets the pitch by controlling the distance between the coils. I put a cross hole in the mandrel to trap the wire and then wound it two turns by hand holding the tool just off the surface. This gave me the closed end. I then put the side of the disc against the first coil and ran the lathe for 7 turns (A bit of tape on the chuck helps here!). Finally, I pulled the tool off the surface and wound it another 2 1/2 turns to get the closed end coils before backing it off half a turn and then cutting the wire at the cross hole with the Dremel. I'm sorry the photo doesn't quite show the position of the tool during the wind but I ran out of hands trying to take the picture! Is that clearer?

I must say that it did take a bit of practice. I spent 14 hours making the tool and then a further hour practicing and making the final components. Now I have to find somewhere to keep it for the next time!

Steve   :)
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on January 14, 2019, 09:03:59 PM

What significance do the numbered radial marks on the plate have?

Tug
Hi Tug.

The numbers are the thickness of the disc at that point in millimetres and run from 1 to 5. By slackening off the dome nut, the disc can be rotated to the required thickness. These springs were made with the minimum 1mm gaps so if I want to make anything smaller, I think I will have to make a thinner disc. To be honest, it could usefully be case-hardened as the edge is showing some signs of distress where the mandrel rotated against it.

Steve   :)
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on January 14, 2019, 09:11:44 PM
You can even buy these ready.

Thanks for the link. I didn't find the ready-made variety and had to resort to making my own although the design was mentioned in the Model Engineer many years ago.

The carriage feed doesn't come into this process as the pitch is set entirely by the disc thickness. I did toy with the idea of a tensioner in the toolpost but this kit did make an acceptable Christmas present selection for Dad to get!

Steve   :)
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on January 14, 2019, 09:15:32 PM
What is the opinion of the spring pressure required to close the valve.
Mike

Hi Mike.

I don't have any feel for the spring pressure required to close the valves. The drawing just quotes an OD, wire size and length without specifying the pitch. This will be a suck-it-and-see exercise. Fortunately, I only want it to run and do not intend to fly it or even fine tune it for maximum power. My ideal is smooth, low speed running!

Steve   :)
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Jo on January 14, 2019, 09:26:35 PM
Thanks Steve, I think I understand  :thinking: As usual I am looking for something less obvious  :facepalm:

Jo
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: dieselpilot on January 14, 2019, 10:24:00 PM
Oh boy, yeah it should have been apparent from the knurl that this tool is hand held.
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Jasonb on January 15, 2019, 03:13:15 PM
That seems to tie in with the 0.7kg given on the merc drawings
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on January 25, 2019, 10:39:06 AM
Time has been short recently although I have managed to snatch an hour or two in the shed. Better still, I have a day off today! I have turned up the spring retainers and a few spares as I predict that a few will be hidden by the Gremlin when I try to fit them.

(https://i.postimg.cc/g2wX327J/DSCN7958.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/rFZRdrQ3/DSCN7959.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Then it was on to the rocker shaft mounting pillars. First job was to turn up the pillars.

(https://i.postimg.cc/YS6SxGzp/DSCN7961.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Then to make a start on the cross pieces. Holes first!

(https://i.postimg.cc/Fzs1zrch/DSCN7962.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

A couple of plugs in the end to give me a filing datum and then I radiused the edge with the file. Right or wrong, at least they will all be the same!

(https://i.postimg.cc/bYTthMbz/DSCN7963.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/qv9twdfG/DSCN7964.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Cut them off and face to length.

(https://i.postimg.cc/9fZDNNCH/DSCN7965.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/CLxfLNHb/DSCN7966.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

More buttons and filing.

(https://i.postimg.cc/k4C2rFg6/DSCN7968.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

A trial fit!

(https://i.postimg.cc/Kjqjg6rB/DSCN7969.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

The tricky bit was to silver solder them together with the tops pointing the right way so that they do up tight in the right position. I scribed the top of each pillar before fluxing and assembling. Then I rotated the top according to the line and soldered them up. They seem to be OK.

(https://i.postimg.cc/15d4RZzZ/DSCN7970.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Clean up and onto the next.

(https://i.postimg.cc/hj0fKzXC/DSCN7972.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

The rocker shafts seemed like a good place to continue so, as they are only grooved bits of silver steel, I have just done them. I have datumned each groove from the last in order to keep the tool close to the chuck. This does give me tolerance stacking but I don't think it will be an issue that I can't get around with the rockers.

(https://i.postimg.cc/66YySZJq/DSCN7973.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/Dwb08YW4/DSCN7974.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/m2ktGrBw/DSCN7975.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/43kdtbtL/DSCN7977.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

It is beginning to look quite pretty. Timing gears next.

Steve   :) 

Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: scc on January 25, 2019, 10:43:04 AM
Extremely impressive :ThumbsUp:             Terry
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Vixen on January 25, 2019, 10:48:19 AM
Looking Good  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

Mike
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on January 25, 2019, 10:52:19 AM
You are very kind, Terry. Thanks.

Steve.
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: gbritnell on January 25, 2019, 12:18:00 PM
That's going to be a unique engine. Very nice work!
gbritnell
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on January 25, 2019, 12:36:46 PM
Hello Steve,

Beautiful workmanship and a beautiful engine.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on January 26, 2019, 08:52:19 PM
You are all too kind. I am sure that anyone could do this really. They just have to want to enough!

I thought I would move onto the timing gears. These are supplied as pre-cut blanks and just need finishing off.

(https://i.postimg.cc/dQbbQwYZ/DSCN7983.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

First job was to make a collet for the pinion. As cutting four slots is a lot easier that three, I elected to use my four-jaw self-centring chuck.

(https://i.postimg.cc/C5q9C6jK/DSCN7979.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/664sNTDN/DSCN7981.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/m270tJLX/DSCN7984.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Some years ago, I made the George Thomas keyway cutting attachment and this made short work of the slot in the pinion. Actually, I can highly recommend making such a device as key slots are so easy that they become the preferred method of securing wheels to shafts and are infinitely better than locking screws.

(https://i.postimg.cc/tgvcKHkT/DSCN7986.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/Gmr6YK9c/DSCN7987.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/0Q3LwqK3/DSCN7988.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

The big wheel was held the same way before setting up in the mill to drill the pilot holes for the spokes..

(https://i.postimg.cc/8Cz3XCh9/DSCN7990.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Must get a taller mill. This is as high as it goes!

(https://i.postimg.cc/QtBzsnYq/DSCN7992.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/dQyfxpys/DSCN7994.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

A few minutes with the sawing wires.

(https://i.postimg.cc/HnXP88gc/DSCN7996.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/PrbRtDy0/DSCN7999.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

And then a couple hours with the needle files and some emery cloth.

(https://i.postimg.cc/TwZ4PqZv/DSCN8001.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

I drilled and tapped it 5BA for a grub screw. This was a mistake as I have only found 4BA and 6BA for sale! Will have to make one or make do with a slotted screw.

(https://i.postimg.cc/0214RnYp/DSCN8000.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/W12ft4fz/DSCN8003.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

I thought I had better see how they mesh and drilled and reamed some holes in a piece of steel at the coordinates specifed in the drawing. They do mesh but are a bit tight so I shall add a couple of thou in each direction just to give them some slack.

(https://i.postimg.cc/htpZmqHr/DSCN8007.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

I am planning to take a look at the camshaft next but sooner or later, I am going to have to grit my teeth drill the holes through the crank case. The crank hole is big enough to line bore but despite the good advice offered to me here, I am still not confident about the camshaft bearings. I expect it will be ok in the end. I just need to have a go!

Steve    :) 

Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: sco on January 26, 2019, 09:09:31 PM
Great work Steve - keep it up!

Simon.
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: 10KPete on January 26, 2019, 10:24:42 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

 :popcorn: :popcorn:

 :cheers:

Pete
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Vixen on January 26, 2019, 10:50:21 PM
looking good :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

Mike
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: steamer on January 27, 2019, 01:49:10 AM
Cranking out some work there Steve!   I like the valve lifter brackets a lot!

Dave
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on January 27, 2019, 08:29:04 PM
Thanks Chaps. It is amazing what you can do when you don't have to go to work!

Thinking about the camshaft now. Roger B. very kindly sent me an Excel spreadsheet to calculate the cam lift at various positions to enable me to mill the profile. However, when I entered the cam details, I was getting some very odd answers so I took the old fashioned approach and drew the cam out at twenty times full size.

(https://i.postimg.cc/8kZVnDV2/Cam-Profile-Query.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

With a 120° working angle, 6mm base circle and 10mm flank radii, it doesn't quite make the full lift and there is no tip radius. This doesn't feel right to me but I don't have the experience to suggest what it should be. If I increase the working angle to 130°, I get a tip radius of 0.95mm or if I make it 125°, I get 0.38mm. I could increase the flank radii to 12mm which would also give me 0.38mm radius. I would value some advice please!

In the mean time, I decided to turn up the camshaft blank.

(https://i.postimg.cc/VkCQ6Cbw/DSCN8013.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/1zGk01HY/DSCN8015.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/BZYdBgTs/DSCN8018.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Then the other half of the centre main bearing. This is a very simple shape!

(https://i.postimg.cc/c46Gpjxr/DSCN8009.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/vBGp3228/DSCN8019.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

A couple of 5BA studs and that is another tick in the box.

(https://i.postimg.cc/50pDG5DB/DSCN8020.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/SRsHp2pw/DSCN8021.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

I am beginning to think about drilling the main bearings so I have bought some long-series drills. Looks like I should have asked for 'extra long'......

(https://i.postimg.cc/2yKMjkk3/DSCN8022.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

I have made an extended centre drill by Loctiting one in the end of a piece of silver steel.

(https://i.postimg.cc/J4sS6kxX/DSCN8023.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

And I finally took Jo's advice and fitted a digital read out to the quill on my mill. It has been sitting on the bench for several years waiting for the feeling to come upon me to do it!

(https://i.postimg.cc/TYSvf91Q/DSCN8008.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

I think I shall do the oil tray in the sump next whilst I ponder the cams.

Back to work tomorrow so it will slow down!

Steve    :)

Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: stevehuckss396 on January 27, 2019, 11:24:18 PM
If you plan to start the engine with a drill or RC starter go to 140 (280 crankshaft) degrees with a 110 degree lobe seperation

From the comp cams catalog

HYDRAULIC-Great for street machines.   2000 to 6000RPM        280 280  110°
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: steamer on January 27, 2019, 11:35:06 PM
If you plan to start the engine with a drill or RC starter go to 140 (280 crankshaft) degrees with a 110 degree lobe seperation

From the comp cams catalog

HYDRAULIC-Great for street machines.   2000 to 6000RPM        280 280  110°

Ill keep that in mind on my engine Steve!

Dave
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on January 28, 2019, 09:44:22 PM
If you plan to start the engine with a drill or RC starter go to 140 (280 crankshaft) degrees with a 110 degree lobe seperation

Thanks for the advice Steve but I am afraid that I don't quite understand! The exhaust and inlet cams are 110° apart so that is fine but I am not sure about the 140°. Could you explain a bit more please? I plan to start it by swinging the prop so I will set the position of that so that the engine compresses as I push the prop down.

My biggest concern is the tip radius of the cam. Please may I have your thoughts on what it should be? I have never made one before and I just don't have a feel for what is right!

Many thanks,

Steve   :) 
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: stevehuckss396 on January 28, 2019, 10:48:18 PM
You may know a lot of this but i'm going to give you the full version.

140 degrees is the amount of rotation of the cam that the valve is open. All cam manufactures cite cam specs in crankshaft rotation so 140 cam degrees is equal to 280 crankshaft degrees. Cam rotates 1/2 the speed of the crankshaft. That is known as "duration". 280 degrees duration blah blah. The more duration the cam lobe has the wider the nose will be at a given base circle and flank radius.

So at 110 degrees separation, the more the 2 valves are open at the same time known as overlap. As the exhaust closes and the intake begins to open the exiting exhaust can cause a vacuum and help to fill the cylinder with fresh fuel in the higher rpm range. Problem with that is you don't begin to compress gas until both valves are closed so you lose compression. That can be compensated by running higher compression pistons. More overlap can make it harder to start an engine by hand. SO!

If you want a hit miss engine that you can start with a flip of the flywheel, reducing overlap is a good idea. To keep duration at a minimum you might have to go to a flat flank with a lifter that has a radius on the bottom of the lifter. That will allow you to keep some kind of nose radius. Flat flank isn't a big concern because the operating RPM is low and so are the forces on the cam and lifters.

If you want a V8 engine that is going to be started by a drill of RC starter then overlap wont hurt. More overlap will allow you to have larger nose radius and flank radius. You need that to reduce forces on the lifter and allow the cam to push the lifter open and closed nice and smooth. Flat flank in a high rpm engine is like opening the valves with a ping pong paddle slapping them open and dropping them closed.

Camshaft theory is one of those things that if you ask 10 people you get 10 different answers. This is what i live by and i have received many complements on how my engines sound but none of mine will start with a flip of the flywheel. If you have any specific questions about any part of this vague answer just ask.
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on January 29, 2019, 09:39:31 PM
Thanks Steve. That is a perfect explanation!

So my 120° cams set at 110° have a 10° overlap. Looking at my drawing, this looks like it is fairly insignificant as the movement is tiny and will probably be absorbed by the tappet clearance. However, I do want to be able to start it by hand so I might be better increasing the flank radius to 12mm to give a 0.4mm nose radius. The followers are the mushroom type so I don't want the flanks to be flat as the opening will then be brutal rather than a smooth continuous movement.

Thanks Steve! That has made it very clear!

Steve    :)
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Roger B on February 01, 2019, 07:21:39 AM
A radiused flank and a flat follower will also give a smooth opening. I played around a lot with the MEN programme to get a sensible nose radius and reasonable accelerations.
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on February 01, 2019, 05:29:36 PM
Very many thanks for your assistance, gentlemen.

Roger has given me a spreadsheet to calculate the cam height at any position and Steve has very kindly laid out various profiles for me. They have given me plenty of food for thought and been a great education. You have made all the difference!

Whilst thinking about the cam profiles, I have made up the tray for the bottom of the sump so that the big end dippers have a profile to follow. I started off by trying a piece of aluminium to get the length right.

(https://i.postimg.cc/vHmyqhYX/DSCN8025.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Once that was confirmed, I cut my brass.

(https://i.postimg.cc/tRkyNwjY/DSCN8024.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

It is very thin so I could easily have curved it by hand but it just so happens that I made George Thomas's bending rolls some years ago so it was a good excuse to get them out and blow the dust off!

(https://i.postimg.cc/CxBgYKfq/DSCN8026.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Some silver solder.

(https://i.postimg.cc/BnrGvGxw/DSCN8027.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

A night in the pickle.

(https://i.postimg.cc/25nNbXGj/DSCN8029.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

I drilled a level hole and overflow hole as shown in the drawing and also screwed it into the bottom of the sump.

(https://i.postimg.cc/MKrShBXw/DSCN8030.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

It all looks very nice but it is a slightly odd arrangement. The divider between the two halves of the crank case means that I could fill one end without filling the other. Also, there is no way of telling how much oil is in the engine. It needs a dipstick or level plug but I shall ponder that some more before I do anything about it.

Incidentally, can anyone tell me who invented the dipstick or when? It is one of those things we take for granted but someone must have done it! We have a collection of vehicles from the Great War era and none of them have a dipstick. They either have level cocks or floats which are much more effort to manufacture. I should be interested to hear your thoughts!

Camshaft tomorrow!

Steve   :) 

Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Vixen on February 01, 2019, 05:35:51 PM
Steve you have a PM

Mike
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on February 02, 2019, 09:04:42 PM
Well, I have finally decided how my camshaft should look and have spent today cutting cams. I set up with the dividing head and a steady made from a piece of plate.

(https://i.postimg.cc/QtqwK4B5/DSCN8031.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

I used Roger's Excel to generate the cutting tables and made sure that I had a large copy next to me whilst cutting!

(https://i.postimg.cc/k4CL435q/DSCN8033.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/2y8JQQvt/DSCN8034.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

It all went quite well in the end although there were 130 cuts per cam and eight cams so it did get a bit tedious. I don't think the mill has run for so long in many a year. The result is satisfactory but not perfect as the base circles vary a bit in diameter. I put this down to my steady not properly supporting the shaft so the next time I cut cams, I will make a proper one.

(https://i.postimg.cc/MGVhqKq9/DSCN8035.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

The question now is should I harden it and, if so, how should I do it so that it doesn't come out like a banana? I have a propane torch as a heat source and could use the domestic oven for tempering.

Many thanks for all of the help that has got me this far.   :ThumbsUp:

Steve    :D

Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Kim on February 02, 2019, 09:14:13 PM
Great looking cams!  130 cuts per cam?  That's 2.769o per cut which seems a bit odd?  Or did you do uneven rotations for some cuts?  Very nice results regardless.
Kim
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on February 02, 2019, 09:37:39 PM
Yes! Ten further passes to get to the base diameter before incrementing in 3° steps!

Steve   :)
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Vixen on February 02, 2019, 11:03:34 PM
Hello Steve,

That's what I call a good days work. Nice camshaft. :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

Any blisters on your fingers from all that handwheel cranking?

What you now need is a nice little Emco F1 CNC mill. There is one going dirt cheep in Havant, Hampshire. Have a look in the Model engineer website classified adverts.

Cheers

Mike
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: stevehuckss396 on February 03, 2019, 12:33:47 AM
I make my camshafts out of O-1 drill rod and the lifters from 12L14. The lifters are the softer material and would wear before the camshaft. The camshafts are unhardened.
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: steamer on February 03, 2019, 12:35:03 AM
I make my camshafts out of O-1 drill rod and the lifters from 12L14. The lifters are the softer material and would wear before the camshaft. The camshafts are unhardened.

Is that working for you Steve?

Dave
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: stevehuckss396 on February 03, 2019, 01:47:49 AM
Peewee has been running sense 2010 with no trouble.
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: steamer on February 03, 2019, 01:49:54 AM
Awesome
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Roger B on February 03, 2019, 07:57:55 AM
Excellent  :praise2:  :praise2: I always tick off each cut on the Excel table as I make it just in case I get disturbed/distracted.

I think it will be difficult to harden a cam of that length without a proper oven/furnace. If you are just going to run the engine from time to time to show people leave it as it is.
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Jo on February 03, 2019, 08:02:24 AM
 8) That's the hardest bit finished.

I'll have to have a think about making a proper bearing for when I get around to milling our one  :noidea:

Any chance of a copy of your cam milling table Steve  :)

Jo
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on February 03, 2019, 08:19:12 AM
I make my camshafts out of O-1 drill rod and the lifters from 12L14. The lifters are the softer material and would wear before the camshaft. The camshafts are unhardened.

Thanks Steve. That is what I hoped you would say! Once the engine has run a couple of times, it will undoubtably become a dust collector on the shelf. Complete waste of time really!

Steve  :)
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on February 03, 2019, 08:21:59 AM

Any chance of a copy of your cam milling table Steve  :)

Jo

No problem, I will send it on. Mind you, don't go doing anything with it until I have run the engine. I may have two clockwise cylinders and two anti-clockwise!

Steve  :)
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on February 03, 2019, 01:43:35 PM
Some fantastic progress Steve. I am catching up from the post on finishing out the gears and forward. Learning a lot here from your posts and the contributions of others regarding the cams especially.

Bill
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on February 03, 2019, 09:16:07 PM
Glad you are enjoying it Bill. Don't just copy me though as I don't know what I am doing. I just make it up as I go along!

The time is ripe for putting the holes through the crank case, a job I have not been relishing. I started off by making up a boring bar. Of course, I didn't have a piece of 7/16" long enough so I turned a bit of 1/2" down. This was the excuse I needed to try the travelling steady. I have had it for years but not used it until today!

(https://i.postimg.cc/rw6GZBQG/DSCN8041.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/rpjSmKcg/DSCN8042.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

I set the crank case on the vertical slide and bolted it on making sure that the nuts were below the hole.

(https://i.postimg.cc/WzFrX8Zf/DSCN8044.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Then secured the sump using all of the bolt holes available.

(https://i.postimg.cc/hvkmwmb4/DSCN8045.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Centred and the drilled through the first part with a nice new 5/16" drill.

(https://i.postimg.cc/HWRbVGDG/DSCN8046.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

I had previously made an extended centre drill for which I deliberately used 5/16" rod so that it would closely fit the hole. I very gingerly drilled the centre bearing by feel alone.

(https://i.postimg.cc/mrBYBQxt/DSCN8048.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

I drilled gently through, centred again and then used the extra long drill, kindly donated by a pal, to go right through.

(https://i.postimg.cc/TwHgVFKD/DSCN8050.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

As you can see, it did wander a bit.

(https://i.postimg.cc/htqx19tp/DSCN8051.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Then I went through with the half-inch. This followed the hole as you might expect.

(https://i.postimg.cc/hjGV7ctn/DSCN8053.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Then it was out with the boring bar. This followed the correct aligmment so if I bore it out enough, I will pull the exit hole back into line. However, it is proving to be a horrible thing to use, chattering terribly. Whilst trying to adjust the bit, I flicked it out and dropped it behind the lathe. Now, my housekeeping behind the lathe is not very good but as this is the only piece of 1/8" HSS I have, I had to find it. The space behind the lathe is now spotless! The HSS had bounced off the wall and landed back in the lathe bed and I found it after I had cleaned up. Oh well, it needed doing.

(https://i.postimg.cc/pXjzj0Rm/DSCN8054.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

I shall persist with the boring bar but it is ghastly. The hole will end up oversize for sure but at least they will be in line. The next problem will be the camshaft hole (5/16"dia) and the only thing I can do with that is drill it through. I will start at the timing gear end as at least the gears will mesh properly.

Not enjoying this bit.

Cheers!

Steve    :disappointed:

Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: sco on February 03, 2019, 09:27:54 PM
Steve,

Wondering if the boring bar is whirling - I would have the minimum hanging out of the chuck you can get away with and not too much end pressure from the tailstock centre and keep the speed down.

Thanks for posting the ups and downs of your progress as will be invaluable when I make a start on mine.

Simon.
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Jo on February 03, 2019, 09:32:54 PM
Hi Steve,

For some reason that first pic reminded me of one you sent me many years ago where you had a long shaft (probably a bit of lorry  ::) ) held in a three jaw chuck and supported by that fixed steady with no tailstock and the bar hanging almost to your shed door.

Keeping my fingers crossed for you  :)

Jo

P.S. Spare bits of 1/8th HSS become available every time I break the ends off a small centre drill  :-X
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on February 03, 2019, 09:45:47 PM
That would be this one I should think. An entire lorry steering column!

(https://i.postimg.cc/B6zWrTYK/DSCN1156c.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/TLnHmDXd)

I was very concious of this one whirling so I turned it very slowly. Fortunately, I had only to clean up the bearing surface at the top. It was all successful but I did get a roasting when I posted it on another forum a few years ago.

This boring bar could certainly whirl so I have been running it slowly. I can't hold it any closer to the chuck as it needs the clearance to run the crank case right through.

I must be missing the point somewhere but I can't see it at the moment!

Steve  :)
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: steamer on February 03, 2019, 10:30:32 PM
Glad you are enjoying it Bill. Don't just copy me though as I don't know what I am doing. I just make it up as I go along!

The time is ripe for putting the holes through the crank case, a job I have not been relishing. I started off by making up a boring bar. Of course, I didn't have a piece of 7/16" long enough so I turned a bit of 1/2" down. This was the excuse I needed to try the travelling steady. I have had it for years but not used it until today!

(https://i.postimg.cc/rw6GZBQG/DSCN8041.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/rpjSmKcg/DSCN8042.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

I set the crank case on the vertical slide and bolted it on making sure that the nuts were below the hole.

(https://i.postimg.cc/WzFrX8Zf/DSCN8044.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Then secured the sump using all of the bolt holes available.

(https://i.postimg.cc/hvkmwmb4/DSCN8045.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Centred and the drilled through the first part with a nice new 5/16" drill.

(https://i.postimg.cc/HWRbVGDG/DSCN8046.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

I had previously made an extended centre drill for which I deliberately used 5/16" rod so that it would closely fit the hole. I very gingerly drilled the centre bearing by feel alone.

(https://i.postimg.cc/mrBYBQxt/DSCN8048.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

I drilled gently through, centred again and then used the extra long drill, kindly donated by a pal, to go right through.

(https://i.postimg.cc/TwHgVFKD/DSCN8050.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

As you can see, it did wander a bit.

(https://i.postimg.cc/htqx19tp/DSCN8051.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Then I went through with the half-inch. This followed the hole as you might expect.

(https://i.postimg.cc/hjGV7ctn/DSCN8053.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Then it was out with the boring bar. This followed the correct aligmment so if I bore it out enough, I will pull the exit hole back into line. However, it is proving to be a horrible thing to use, chattering terribly. Whilst trying to adjust the bit, I flicked it out and dropped it behind the lathe. Now, my housekeeping behind the lathe is not very good but as this is the only piece of 1/8" HSS I have, I had to find it. The space behind the lathe is now spotless! The HSS had bounced off the wall and landed back in the lathe bed and I found it after I had cleaned up. Oh well, it needed doing.

(https://i.postimg.cc/pXjzj0Rm/DSCN8054.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

I shall persist with the boring bar but it is ghastly. The hole will end up oversize for sure but at least they will be in line. The next problem will be the camshaft hole (5/16"dia) and the only thing I can do with that is drill it through. I will start at the timing gear end as at least the gears will mesh properly.

Not enjoying this bit.

Cheers!

Steve    :disappointed:

Bill Make sure the bit is ground so that the cutting force is ONLY pointed parallel to the boring bar.   It will cut much smoother if it does.

If you can put a steady on that bar to take 2 of the three bearings, and then move the steady on the other side and support the bar from there for the last bearing, it will help.



Dave
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: steamer on February 03, 2019, 10:34:58 PM
This is what Im getting on about....like this

Not a great image, but you can see it ...The cutting force is directly along the boring bar, and it will cut much cleaner and with less likelihood of chatter...

Make sure it's got some outside relief so it doesn't rub...

If I'm telling you how to suck eggs...I'm sorry   please forgive me....I want to reach through the screen and help...but I can't ...arms not long enough.. 8)

Dave
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Vixen on February 03, 2019, 10:35:36 PM
Hello Steve,

By definition, the overall length of the boring bar would need to at least twice the length of the crankcase and as you have found, it is in great danger of whirling and vibration.

For my Mercedes W165 I was proposing to align and support the boring bar by running it through two bronze bearings bolted to the front and rear faces of the crankcase. This will reduce the unsupported length of a slender boring bar to the very minimum ie. the length of the crankcase.

This may be one answer to your problems. Other members may have different ideas and  may achieve different mileage.

Good luck

Mike
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: steamer on February 03, 2019, 10:37:45 PM
The other thing you could do is steady the bar with a steady rest and bore the first one.  Put a close fitting bushing in the hole, and move the steady to the other side, and complete the other two holes.   The bush will support the bar.   Keep it lubed!...

Dave
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: steamer on February 03, 2019, 10:38:22 PM
Mike beat me to it!!!     :lolb:
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Vixen on February 03, 2019, 10:40:11 PM
Dave,

You slowing down, or what? :lolb: :lolb: :lolb:

Mike
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: steamer on February 03, 2019, 10:48:54 PM
Dave,

You slowing down, or what? :lolb: :lolb: :lolb:

Mike

Evidently!    :old:
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on February 06, 2019, 09:03:02 PM
Many thanks for your thoughts Chaps. All very much appreciated. I have played games with the speed, tool angles, depth of cut and feed rates but to no avail. I kept going in the hope that I would strike the 'sweet spot' but alas and I am now 1.2mm oversize. I did a couple of spring cuts but each time, it just picked up the resonance. All extremely frustrating! Perhaps I should have made the shaft longer to change its frequency.

(https://i.postimg.cc/HWqWYRkW/DSCN8055.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Mind you, this is the most amazingly rough bored finish I have ever seen!

(https://i.postimg.cc/kgc7y5FD/DSCN8057.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

The only plus side is that at least the hole is in the right place.

(https://i.postimg.cc/rpwMZLQj/DSCN8058.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

The hole is just shy of 9/16" so perhaps I will try an expanding reamer just to tidy it up a bit.

To get it low enough for the camshaft hole, I had to make sure that the casting hung over the edges of the cross slide. Drilling that hole will be the next challenge.

(https://i.postimg.cc/htgSxmmH/DSCN8060.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

There is not much satisfaction in this one.

Steve    :-\


Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Jo on February 06, 2019, 09:12:01 PM
I know how you must feel Steve  :( and I still have mine to look forward to  :toilet_claw:

Jo
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: stevehuckss396 on February 06, 2019, 11:30:17 PM
I find that if I get some chatter I cut spindle speed in half. If it chatters again cut in half. Just today I had to use a boring bar to bore a 2 inch bore 6-1/2 deep blind hole. I was down to 150RPM but got a good finish. Took forever!
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: john mills on February 07, 2019, 06:01:32 AM
could you use a shorter bar .set tool cross hole closer to  the hole so it just goes through the one hole have the a different tool for each hole that way the tool is supported near the chuck for that first hole the last hole is closer to the last hole the centre bore it would be a shorter bar over all ,if you could mont a bush next to the centre hole
make a bracket mount of that tee slot.that would help could the centre  be done before the sump is put back. 
just some thoughts from a automotive machinist that has done a bit of line boring on line boring machines
they had arms which could be moved and placed next to the hole.but a bit hard for the centre  when the sump is on.
   John
at least use three separate tools one for each hole so the bar can be much shorter.
looking again could you while the sump is of mount a support bush on a bar across the tapped holes on the lower face
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Roger B on February 07, 2019, 09:41:42 AM
I know it's a bit late now :( but Jason B used a much shorter boring bar mounted between centers so he could turn it around to cut either end without disturbing the cutting tool setting (you wil need to reverse the lathe I think  :headscratch: )
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Jasonb on February 07, 2019, 11:02:26 AM
Yep, that's what I suggested back in post #24
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: john mills on February 07, 2019, 11:53:09 AM
using the long bar the fixed steady could have been used as close as possible to the cutting tool shift to the other end when cutting that but the centre would need more support the shorter bar would be better.
i would set it up again and try again with a shorter bar.
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on February 16, 2019, 10:58:17 AM
Hello Friends!

I am back on line! Sorting out IT is worse than trying to bore crankshaft bearings!

Firstly, many thanks for all of your assistance. I value every single contribution and the kindness with which it is offered. However, I make my own decisions and my own mistakes (as you can see!). I have learned a lot from this one and will approach it differently the next time I do one!

Back to engine building. I indexed the case down and across and centred for the camshaft hole. A nice new drill soon sorted that.

(https://i.postimg.cc/tRfPpM94/DSCN8061.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Then I used my extended centre drill and very gingerly marked the centre bearing hole. My new drill sorted that one out.

(https://i.postimg.cc/252bJHHm/DSCN8062.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

I pulled the centre drill right out of the chuck to get the last hole through but found that it hit the inside of the crank case, pushing it over.

(https://i.postimg.cc/130N0Rw8/DSCN8063.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

I tickled that out with the Dremel before centring that one as well.

(https://i.postimg.cc/9QH7qwR3/DSCN8065.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/sXLBfMdN/DSCN8067.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

The extra long drill I was given finally went through there.

(https://i.postimg.cc/d13kK8XC/DSCN8068.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Now, the moment of truth. My 8mm reamer fell through the first hole (0.007" oversize) but cleaned the other two nicely. I found in stock, a 9/16" reamer so I put that through the crank holes and it cleaned them up a bit. As they will be bushed they will be fine although the quality is a bit of a dent to my pride, to say the least. Oh well.

(https://i.postimg.cc/jjsnMV4Z/DSCN8069.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

I made a couple of temporary camshaft bushes to try the installation.

(https://i.postimg.cc/ZKdNRxqF/DSCN8070.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

The shaft wangled in OK but the cams actualy foul the inside of the crank case. More work with the Dremel sorted that.

(https://i.postimg.cc/C5fRRwwL/DSCN8072.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Next challenge was the centre bearing as I needed this to see how true the holes are. As I have made the camshaft in one piece (the drawings show a Loctited assembly) the bearing must be split. However, it has no flange to retain it so I was concerned that one half might walk out in use. I have therefore keyed the two halves together. I cut a bit of bronze to the centre line and then a 0.015" deep key slot across the middle

(https://i.postimg.cc/4nkmtj3v/DSCN8073.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

I did the same for the other half but raised it in the middle instead.

(https://i.postimg.cc/CMWNm1B7/DSCN8075.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

These were soft-soldered together and then turned to size.

(https://i.postimg.cc/6pKhxmhG/DSCN8077.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/nh1GFGdS/DSCN8078.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

I drilled the hole, holding the bush in the collet chuck so that I would't burst the joint.

(https://i.postimg.cc/bNkRMh1h/DSCN8079.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/xjk5vHCq/DSCN8080.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Warm it up to melt the solder and bingo!

(https://i.postimg.cc/rpFCKR3V/DSCN8081.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Now a trial fit.

(https://i.postimg.cc/9f8PTFHG/DSCN8084.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/wv1Xk89n/DSCN8085.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/gkFV3TQB/DSCN8083.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

I was pleased with the result but as it could only be a push fit, I was concerned that it would walk out of position again. I have therefore dimpled the bush and added a locking screw.

(https://i.postimg.cc/yx90wmgP/DSCN8086.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/yd2FQQdx/DSCN8087.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Now I had the problem that if I screw it tight enough to stay in place, the bearing binds! I added a locknut so that, hopefully, it will stay in place. Interrestingly, this is the solution that Thornycrofts used in my lorry engine although the two halves of the bushing were bolted together around the camshaft in that case. The joys of a crank case you can get both hands in at once.

(https://i.postimg.cc/sDYpmJRf/DSCN8088.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

I have also turned up the final camshaft end bushings.

(https://i.postimg.cc/1RN0nQCq/DSCN8091.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

I feel crankshaft and con-rods looming.

Steve   :)

Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: steamer on February 16, 2019, 11:28:47 AM
Nice Job Steve!!!!


Dave
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: gbritnell on February 16, 2019, 12:09:59 PM
Fantastic fix for perhaps one of the ugliest jobs there is. Why they don't cast the cam area with extra metal that can be later machined out I have no idea. I would pay whatever it cost in extra aluminum not to go through the extra work involved.
The Holt castings are like that.
A method that I used seemed to help a bit. You put the first hole in (finished diameter) then make a guide bushing that fits snugly in the hole. The bushing is long enough to go from the end of the block up to the next bearing. You then take a piece of shaft that fits nicely in the bushing and drill the end to lightly press in a center drill. Oil up the shaft, slide it into the bushing and center drill the next hole.
gbritnell
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Roger B on February 16, 2019, 01:30:31 PM
Nicely done  :praise2: I like the stepped split center bush  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on February 18, 2019, 09:10:24 AM
Yesterday, I made a start on the connecting rods. The drawings specify 'Dural' which I am told is a generic term for high tensile aluminium alloys. I managed to obtain some 2014/HE15 which my supplier recommended. The first challenge was how to hold and machine the things and I did spend a long time puzzling. When in doubt, start with some datum holes!

(https://i.postimg.cc/N0kxN8hw/DSCN8092.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

I took a skim off the face as well so that everything was flat and square.

(https://i.postimg.cc/KjRrvd1Z/DSCN8093.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

I turned them over, skimmed to thickness and positioned the other holes using the leadscrew dials to get the right pitch.

(https://i.postimg.cc/d3pR74CG/DSCN8094.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Then a block in the vice with pegs to locate the big and little ends.

(https://i.postimg.cc/3xMCYfYT/DSCN8095.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/Qt6JDXx4/DSCN8096.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/9XnYNFkz/DSCN8097.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Last cut of the day, a moment's lapse in concentration and I moved the power feed the wrong way. The mill bit in, the vice moved the milling head moved and I smashed my new end mill whilst wrecking the job. I was not a happy bunny!

(https://i.postimg.cc/HkQ0x0k7/DSCN8098.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/HxW9FJH8/DSCN8099.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Time to stop, I thought. Today, I shall be rectifying the damage. The joys of model engineering.

Steve  :facepalm:


Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Jo on February 18, 2019, 09:27:51 AM
HE15 for conrods  :ThumbsUp:

Shame about the mishap  :( Did you buy enough Ali for any extra rods?

Jo
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Admiral_dk on February 18, 2019, 11:40:14 AM
Oh man - I feel your pain, as I would have been very frustrated with myself and let a good number of four letter words color the surroundings  :cussing:

And it really illustrates what can happen when not 100% concentrated on the job using power tools. Shame about the nice con-rod, and the tools.

Best wishes

Per
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: scc on February 18, 2019, 11:52:38 AM
Oh dear!  I can feel your frustration.  It's so easy to lose concentration, I've certainly wrecked a few things in my time and I bet most forum members have too.   The disasters make the successes  more satisfying.       Regards             Terry
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: steamer on February 18, 2019, 12:11:53 PM
Sorry to hear and see this Steve, glad you're not hurt.  Its frustrating, but parts can be replaced...eye's and fingers cant

Dave
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on February 18, 2019, 12:59:29 PM
That can be frustrating Steve. Hope today will go better for you.

Bill
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Kim on February 18, 2019, 06:04:56 PM
I feel for you, Steve!  I've done that before and it never feels good.  :'( But you picked an excellent course of action.  Stop for the day and come back later.  You'll feel much better about it in a few days.  But as you say, its just a part of the hobby.  And, as Dave said, parts and equipment are replaceable.

Kim
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on February 19, 2019, 09:05:26 AM
Thanks for your sympathy. What irks the most is that it was entirely avoidable and due only to my carelessness!

Damage repaired and I had enough material in stock for another. As the rods are 72mm long and the material comes in 300mm lengths, I was tempted to buy only one length but discretion being the watchword, I bought two. I was also fortunate to find another good end mill in the drawer so all was not lost and I soon had them all roughed out.

(https://i.postimg.cc/59zps5Dt/DSCN8100.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Now it is just a filing job. I turned up some buttons for guidance and away I went.

(https://i.postimg.cc/m2NjsLLf/DSCN8102.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/vZYz8JT1/DSCN8104.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

The fun bit now is the dipper to pick up the oil.

(https://i.postimg.cc/fThCpthf/DSCN8105.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/t4BzsBnB/DSCN8108.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Now to profile the rest and give them some finish. Hopefully, no more excitement for a while!

Steve  :)

Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on February 20, 2019, 10:20:50 AM
Started the day by finishing the con rod profiles.

(https://i.postimg.cc/T2bDj9hY/DSCN8110.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Little end bushes.

(https://i.postimg.cc/fTjSpRxG/DSCN8111.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Big end bushes.

(https://i.postimg.cc/524QVWg6/DSCN8112.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

There is insufficient room inside the crank case for split big-ends so the rods are one-piece and have to be fitted whilst pressing the crankshaft together. This gives the interesting challenge of pressing it together true and straight, correct first time.

(https://i.postimg.cc/WzctYBtp/DSCN8113.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Centre bearing bush. This is drawn plain but again, there is no way of retaining it. I reckon there is enough space for flanges on each end so I have made it thus. We shall see whether it fits in a moment!

(https://i.postimg.cc/nh3jVSST/DSCN8114.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/7LbC51p4/DSCN8116.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/WbPJ5kJm/DSCN8117.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

I found a large bronze bolt in the drawer so I have turned the end bearing from that.

(https://i.postimg.cc/d3R3b5T2/DSCN8118.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

This one carries a thrust face to carry the airscrew axial load. I have deliberately left it over-thickness so I can adjust it on assembly. Interestingly, the plain end protrudes beyond the end of the crank case and into line with the timing gear so the casting may be a bit thin here. I may have to trim the end back but we shall see.

(https://i.postimg.cc/3w6km4Tv/DSCN8119.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/HxyV2YYP/DSCN8120.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

One more bush and then it is time to start on the crank!

Steve   :)

Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: steamer on February 20, 2019, 11:05:27 AM
It's looking great Steve!   

Can't wait to see the crank!

Dave
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Roger B on February 20, 2019, 12:53:41 PM
Looking good  :praise2:  :praise2: I'm glad you recovered quickly from the little mishap  :wine1:
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: bent on February 20, 2019, 08:38:38 PM
"the rods are one-piece and have to be fitted whilst pressing the crankshaft together. This gives the interesting challenge of pressing it together true and straight, correct first time."

!!!  :headscratch: :noidea:

Wow.  Following/lurking with interest.
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on April 06, 2019, 10:14:20 PM
Well, I'm back! Life can rather get in the way some times and this hasn't been helped by my writing off my car. Apart from the car, the only damage was to my pride but that hurts! Anyway time to get back in the shed.

All three bearings in and the bar turns sweetly

(https://i.postimg.cc/zGG2XY3r/DSCN8122.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

I drilled three holes in the centre bush. The two end ones are for oil and the centre to engage with a peg in the crank case to prevent it from rotating.

(https://i.postimg.cc/fRy5Q7gW/DSCN8137.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Now onto the crankshaft. Lay out all the material and then start on squaring up the webs.

(https://i.postimg.cc/nLsdBKvS/DSCN8123.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/L5SvcrGG/DSCN8124.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/XqncH9Cb/DSCN8125.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/XvTs8ZLj/DSCN8126.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/MKdtL35r/DSCN8127.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

The the crank pins. These should be a simple turning job.

(https://i.postimg.cc/1twJY97p/DSCN8130.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/8kdZRz6G/DSCN8131.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Unfortunately, I overcooked them a bit and they were only a firm push fit. Rather than make a complete new set, I decided that I would push them all together with Loctite. If it doesn't work I will have another go, half a thou bigger next time!

(https://i.postimg.cc/HkvZrv77/DSCN8132.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

The front end of the crankshaft has a 1:10 taper to seat the propellor boss so I set that up by clocking along a piece of silver steel with the topslide set over. It only took a couple of goes to get it perfect.

(https://i.postimg.cc/RhTG4gBh/DSCN8134.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/X7VQQ6fC/DSCN8135.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Then a keyway for the timing gear and propellor boss.

(https://i.postimg.cc/RhG1jq7n/DSCN8136.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

The piece of aluminium on the left is a jig to hold the pin square whilst pressing it into the web. Pressing it all together true is going to be quite a challenge and I need all of the help I can get.

(https://i.postimg.cc/TwVJJth0/DSCN8139.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/8zY4pFqR/DSCN8140.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/hjW0mk4h/DSCN8141.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Trying to keep it all true using the angle plate which has a convenient slot to dodge the big end.

(https://i.postimg.cc/Bv1gXS0d/DSCN8142.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/jSD6FxLL/DSCN8143.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/3wpX3tjh/DSCN8144.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Half a crank in the lathe to check the alignment. It was a couple of thou out but a good push with the thm soon brought it into line.

(https://i.postimg.cc/Kvqrfkc6/DSCN8145.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Now the other end.

(https://i.postimg.cc/Vk29yxC4/DSCN8146.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/1trDq4YY/DSCN8147.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Another alignment check and adjustment.

(https://i.postimg.cc/NMc1FRbH/DSCN8148.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

The final push

(https://i.postimg.cc/Wzpg6jBp/DSCN8152.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/fyHX8psc/DSCN8153.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

The moment of truth. As expected, it was not perfect but 0.010" out. I took a slightly brutal approach and jut put it back in the press to give it a push!

(https://i.postimg.cc/YqhmpXkP/DSCN8161.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/dtxrdb4v/DSCN8158.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Actually, this worked although it did take me three hours to get it good enough. It is now within 0.001" eccentric which I think I can live with.

(https://i.postimg.cc/QdK5qfy7/DSCN8154.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

The next problem was that it didn't actually fit in the crank case! Fortunately, there was enough meat to allow me to make some more space.

(https://i.postimg.cc/tghxKYyC/DSCN8155.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/kXzRDxgg/DSCN8162.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/Rh0JJdtN/DSCN8163.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Bingo!

(https://i.postimg.cc/4489RCCt/DSCN8166.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Just skim the bearings to length and it is all beginning to look promising.

(https://i.postimg.cc/ZnDB8NPj/DSCN8169.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Machine the sump to match.

(https://i.postimg.cc/ZR4d44KP/DSCN8167.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/JhWy5MJw/DSCN8168.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

A crank case with crankshaft which rotates!

(https://i.postimg.cc/7LM5BdM5/DSCN8170.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

That job has been bugging me for a while but I think I have it now. Propellor boss tomorrow and then I can spin it.

Steve  :) 
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on April 06, 2019, 10:42:36 PM
Hello Steve,

Looking really good  :ThumbsUp:

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Jo on April 07, 2019, 07:23:57 PM
Well, I'm back! Life can rather get in the way some times and this hasn't been helped by my writing off my car. Apart from the car, the only damage was to my pride but that hurts!

I was wondering only yesterday if you had done any more on this model Steve. Nice to see the crank together  :)

Shame about the car think positively it means you have an excuse to buy yourself another one  :naughty:  Lets be honest writing off a car like my old Pug is easy I think a scratch in the paint would do it  ::)

Jo
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: sco on April 07, 2019, 07:41:12 PM
Great work on the crank Steve, filing away all your assembly methods for when I get round to mine!

Simon.
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on April 07, 2019, 09:17:32 PM
I wouldn't follow me too closely, Simon. More treat it as a way of avoiding some pitfalls!

Yes Jo. I have now had a new car for a week and got a speeding ticket for it in the post yesterday! Not having a good month!

Anyway, back to the engine. The propellor flange is mounted on a taper on the end of the crankshaft. Whilst the tool was set over for the crank, I took the opportunity to turn a bit of silver steel to use as the reamer for the flange.

(https://i.postimg.cc/nhTn910b/DSCN8184.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/9fnVJF6L/DSCN8185.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/d01w2Tx7/DSCN8186.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

I hardened the thing out and then just polished the edge with a whetstone.

(https://i.postimg.cc/766Jd6td/DSCN8187.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

The flange was just a turning job although getting the tapered hole in the back square to the front face was fun. In the end I machined the front first and then pushed it hard against the chuck whilst I step-drilled it, reamed it and cut the keyway.

(https://i.postimg.cc/SKtcyC9k/DSCN8191.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/YCR1sJq4/DSCN8192.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/DZJLm0Qs/DSCN8193.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/nLLvb0C3/DSCN8194.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/QNKJd4SP/DSCN8195.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

It all worked well and I could push it onto the end of the crank. Now I can turn it and I must say that I am very pleased with the outcome. It it smooth and slightly tight with newness rather than binding. A good outcome.

Now, onto the pistons. I decided to do them in pairs, crown to crown.

(https://i.postimg.cc/8k7trPkZ/DSCN8196.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/DwPgKS5w/DSCN8197.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

After doing one end, I reversed the piece and held the new piston in the collet chuck whilst I turned the other end.

(https://i.postimg.cc/Nfh796z0/DSCN8198.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/kXxNx20v/DSCN8199.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Here is a new purchase in the shape of a collet chuck with a base that can be held in the vice. This is my first use of it and I must say that it made life easy.

(https://i.postimg.cc/76F7z4XR/DSCN8201.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/3rG2TyxQ/DSCN8202.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/wTdLT61y/DSCN8203.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/tJGZT54Q/DSCN8204.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Two pairs of pistons ready to part off.

(https://i.postimg.cc/Rh13nHW3/DSCN8205.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/nzD9p5ZG/DSCN8206.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/kMWRHkTn/DSCN8207.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Four pistons, machined to length and a reamer through the gudgeon pin holes.

(https://i.postimg.cc/L89PLNBm/DSCN8208.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/jj9JVKVj/DSCN8209.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Gudgeon pins next and then I can see if they go up and down!

Steve  :) 

Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Admiral_dk on April 08, 2019, 09:41:14 PM
Nice progress + I like that you could straighten the crank so it runs as it should - always a potential problem with buildup cranks  :ThumbsUp:  :cheers:
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on April 14, 2019, 10:12:24 PM
Next job was the gudgeon pins. They are silver steel again with bronze inserts in the ends to avoid scoring the bores. I pressed the bronze plugs in the ends and then turn the assemblies to length.

(https://i.postimg.cc/8z5hqWxK/DSCN8210.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/DyCGd0mq/DSCN8211.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/QtL19zCw/DSCN8213.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

A this point, I found that on tdc, the block was lifted off the crank case! I checked the lengths of the bores and found them to be OK. Then I made a dummy piston on a piece of rod and tried it in the bores. It appears that the liners have all squeezed in a couple of thou at the top. To get over this, I thought I would just taper the top of the piston above the ring so, as a trial, I used some emery paper on the top 2mm of the dummy piston and it did the trick. I then went back and did the same to the working pistons and all was well. Another hurdle overcome!

(https://i.postimg.cc/2SK4myDz/DSCN8215.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/13kfJqSN/DSCN8216.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

So I could now get the pistons to the top of the bores. However, the crank would not turn past the 3 o'clock / 9 o'clock position. A look inside revealed that the sides of the rods were touching the crank case and the bottom edges of the bores. That took some carefull work with a needle file to sort out.

(https://i.postimg.cc/Cxzqv0f9/DSCN8217.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/L52PvZzV/DSCN8219.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

It turns!

(https://i.postimg.cc/ydF9FTSd/DSCN8220.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Now onto the rings. I had never made rings before so I approached this with some trepidation. However, in the end, they turned out to be quite straightforward.

(https://i.postimg.cc/kMvKGfmY/DSCN8221.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/ncV7DBVF/DSCN8222.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

I parted one off as a trial first to check the thickness and then use to sort out a process of breaking and then heat treating them.

(https://i.postimg.cc/x85zZT5V/DSCN8223.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Thickness was right first time but I was puzzled about how to split them.

(https://i.postimg.cc/cL282zRC/DSCN8224.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Well, that didn't work!

(https://i.postimg.cc/90m4yHh8/DSCN8225.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

I found that a cold chisel just gently tapped over a vee did the job nicely.

(https://i.postimg.cc/gJPLk6BP/DSCN8226.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

The heat treatment had been worrying me but I was told just to spring the ring out to the required size and place over a piece of steel before heating to bright red. You will see the ring relax after a few seconds at that temperature so then just let it air cool. Surprisingly, that worked a treat and I was very pleased with the outcome.

(https://i.postimg.cc/RFQ63VjJ/DSCN8227.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/rp4tk9jJ/DSCN8228.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/2y01w9jz/DSCN8229.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

It fits! Actually, I had to trim the ends with a needle file to allow the ring to close down sufficiently at the top of the bore but it was all very satisfactory.

(https://i.postimg.cc/ryjRMs1v/DSCN8230.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

I parted off more rings until I had run out of bar and then treated them in the same way.

(https://i.postimg.cc/yYNgdKnW/DSCN8231.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/DwJSrc9T/DSCN8232.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

The crank now turns smoothly with four pistons and four rings fitted. A bit time consuming but very satisfying.

(https://i.postimg.cc/ZRZ0hzCb/DSCN8234.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

The question now is what am I going to do next? Probably oil filler and breather for a bit of light relief.

Steve  :) 
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: stevehuckss396 on April 15, 2019, 02:03:13 AM
I use diagonal cutters to split my rings. They work well and I have never had one break. Just need to take a few seconds to get squared up before squeezing. Here is a link to a pair so you can see what i'm talking about but any diagonal will work.

https://www.amazon.com/KNIPEX-70-01-110-Diagonal/dp/B005EXO71G
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on April 15, 2019, 10:08:19 PM
Thanks Steve. I hadn't thought of doing it that way. Something to try next time!

Steve   :)
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Vixen on April 15, 2019, 10:34:19 PM
Hello Steve

You've made some pretty rapid progress over the last few weeks. Well done, it looks great. Not too long before you fire it up.

Keep up the good work

Mike
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: yogi on April 15, 2019, 11:41:46 PM
Fantastic progress Steve! 
:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: bent on April 16, 2019, 03:42:03 PM
That's looking great Steve! :popcorn:
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Roger B on April 16, 2019, 07:31:39 PM
Excellent  :praise2:  :praise2: Like Steve Hucks I use what I call side cutters to split my piston rings.
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on April 16, 2019, 09:25:26 PM
Thanks Chaps, you are all very kind.

To be honest, I feel I am making rather a meal of it. No part is giving in without a fight and I am taking much longer than I should do. so far, I have managed to dig myself out of the various holes I have been in but I shouldn't have fallen in in the first place! Never mind. All a good learning experience.

Steve  :)
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: TobyTetzy on April 18, 2019, 10:01:58 AM
Hello Steve,

because you build a really nice engine. Very nice.
I looked at the engine on Kornmüller's homepage years ago.

Somewhere I had read that there were the cylinders in two versions. With and without core.
Yours do not have a core, how do you then do the water cooling, or do you refrain from it?

On Konrmüller's homepage was also something about the history of the engine. Unfortunately, there is nothing to see.

My research on this engine revealed the following.
The engine comes from a Daimler (DMG) airship engine B4L. This had an overhead camshaft.
Then Daimler built in 1909 the first aircraft engine B4F as a prototype.
This one had the gears lying inside.
This resulted in 1910 slightly modified D4F, with modified sump and external gears.
Below is a picture of the original.

ARGUS also built a similar engine. This was called Type 4 engine.
By the way, ARGUS also built the Schmidt-Argus-Pipe, Argus As 014, a blast jet engine that was used in the Fieseler Fi 103 (V1 rocket).
That's a sad story though.

Greeting Toby
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: b.lindsey on April 18, 2019, 01:41:17 PM
Steve, I am playing catch up again on your build but you are making some really great progress on a wonderful project. Thanks for sharing the trials and tribulations as well.

Bill
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on April 18, 2019, 08:10:49 PM
Hi Toby!

That is marvellous! I haven't managed to find an original photo of the engine. Thank you so much for posting it. It explains a number of Heinz's features. I really couldn't understad why the breather was drawn the shape it has been and this explains it. What a wonderful find!

May I ask another question? Do you know what the makers plate would have looked like and where it was fitted? Little things like that really finish off a model.

Thanks again for the pic. You have made my day!

Steve   ;D :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: TobyTetzy on April 18, 2019, 10:09:20 PM
Hello Steve,

Here are two pictures of the J4F engine.
It was the first aircraft engine built by DMG.
1908-1909
Type: In-Line, water cooling
Status: prototype
Power: 115-120 hp
Piston diameter: 120 mm
Preserved samples: no
On the first picture you can see the nameplate.

The sump has been reduced in the D4F (your Engine) to save weight.
The D4F was probably the first engine that was really built into a plane.
1909
Status: Serial number
Copies: unknown
Power 60 hp at 1,400 rpm;
Diameter / stroke: 110/140 mm;
Volume: 5.32 l;
Weight: 120 kg;
Preserved samples: no

In the E4F, the gears were placed in the oil sump.
E4F (F 1244)
1910-1913
Status: serial number
Number of copies: Unknown
Technical specifications
Power 70 hp at 1,400 rpm;
Diameter / piston stroke: 120/140 mm;
Volume: 6.4 liters.
Weight: 130 kg;
Copies received: Technical Museum, Munich (early version), Museum of Science and Technology, Berlin (later version).
Since the nameplate also looks quite good.

I'm still looking for drawings of these engines. Unfortunately, I have not found anything yet.
From the 6 cylinder Mercedes D.II / D.III there are many more drawings.
It is probably because the engines were built only from 1909 to 1913. After that, only stronger 6 cylinder Mercedes engines were used.
It's an interesting story of these engines, if you are concerned with it a little bit.

Greeting Toby
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on April 18, 2019, 10:51:54 PM
Thank you Toby. They are fabulous pictures and just what I wanted. It is great to have the history too. I just couldn't track anything down before. What a wonderful thing this forum is!

I really must get on with it and make it go now!

Steve    ;D
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Craig DeShong on April 20, 2019, 11:01:53 PM
Hi Steve.  I'm one of the ones who has been silently following along.. this is an interesting project and is going to make a very nice model.  I'm commiserating as I read because you're having some of the the same problems I'm having with the Frisco.  Your work is just superb.  Can't wait to see it done and running.
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Lars on May 08, 2019, 03:16:53 PM
Steve,

I just joined the site (I made an introduction on myself in the intro section) and saw your posts on the Mercedes engine. I am building one myself and it is great to see you progress !

I started work on mine 2 years ago (I do have a tendency to get distracted on other intreseting projects) and I just this weekend tried to start it. Unfortunately it did not start very well so I have alot of tuning in front of me, starting with a leaking exhaust valve that I will have to re-lap.

It is very interesting to see your approach. Very similar to mine on many steps! 

Keep up the good work!

Lars
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on May 08, 2019, 09:55:14 PM
Glad you are enjoying it Craig. My work isn't superb, just adequate but it is very nice of you to say so. If I was good at this, I wouldn't dig myself into so many holes!

I like to show the tribulations as well (thanks Bill) as those are the learning points. It is nice if you can learn from someone else's mistakes rather than your own.

Welcome along Lars! This seems to be a fairly uncommon engine and it is nice to see another one. Yours does look good and I wish I had been able to ask you about the crankshaft before I did mine! Please could you post a few more pictures of it? Are you running on glow plugs or spark ignition? I am coming to that stage fairly soon but the drawings are a bit thin on detail. They do show a contact breaker and distributor but no clues as to how to produce the HT. I could really do with some guidance in that area. The contact breaker is a hall switch but I know it doesn't have the capacity to drive a coil directly so I should very much appreciate your thoughts. In fact, I shall make that a general question for all of my friends here. Someone will know!

On to an update. Slow progress again but some. I turned up the breather tube and sweated a piece of gauze across the top by first tinning the end of the tube and then just warming it whilst pressed onto the gauze.

(https://i.postimg.cc/HLmDp94V/DSCN8235.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

I didn't completely block the gauze with solder and just trimmed the edges. so I was pleased with that result. I need to drill a hole for it in the top half of the crank case but the position is undefined on the drawing so will have to give it some thought.

(https://i.postimg.cc/5tmcjQnp/DSCN8237.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Then the oil filler tube and cap. Another nice little milling exercise followed by a needle file to give it some shape.

(https://i.postimg.cc/NFSSZ6jG/DSCN8239.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/bJY7nY5P/DSCN8241.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Water pump next. This is a casting with a thoughtfully provided chucking piece.

(https://i.postimg.cc/g291DH7N/DSCN8243.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/QMhwLxh7/DSCN8245.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

After facing and boring, I mounted it in the four-jaw a bit eccentric and bored the water way such that it got wider towards the pump exit. Not quite a volute but giving the same effect.

(https://i.postimg.cc/Bnxkw19s/DSCN8247.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/GpKNbwm5/DSCN8249.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

In the model, the pump is mounted on the end of the crankshaft. The drawing shows two M2 tapped holes in the back but I cannot see what they might be for. They are aligned with the joint line between bush and housing and there is no way of getting a bolt through from the back. Lars, how have you mounted your pump?

(https://i.postimg.cc/85CY5KFP/DSCN8250.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Then the impellor, mounted in the dividing head to have the vanes milled.

(https://i.postimg.cc/xj4wk23r/DSCN8253.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/jdnGPFMD/DSCN8256.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/RFbDn7f1/DSCN8261.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Cam follower bushes next with a press jig to push them into the casing all the same amount.

(https://i.postimg.cc/Rh6b1WQk/DSCN8263.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/prwcsPsp/DSCN8264.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/SQny1VZh/DSCN8265.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/dQgJbdXT/DSCN8266.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

And the followers, a relaxing turning job.

(https://i.postimg.cc/PrZdTJsV/DSCN8268.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

The exhaust pipes are mounted by screwing into the block and securing with a brass collar slotted for a C-spanner.

(https://i.postimg.cc/vZsbByGY/DSCN8269.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/qvx06F78/DSCN8270.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/PqfHWML0/DSCN8271.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

A perfect fit for my micrometer spanner!

(https://i.postimg.cc/tgrj2VWJ/DSCN8272.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Ever thinking about the next jobs, bending the exhaust pipes and the inlet manifold is going to be a real challenge. Both are 8mm dia and bent on a very tight radius of 12-18mm. I can see some difficulties here. Has anyone ever made a mandrel pipe bender in this size and published the drawings?

Steve  :) 

Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: sco on May 08, 2019, 10:19:32 PM
Great work Steve - love the look of the exhaust locking collars!

Simon.
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Jo on May 09, 2019, 12:35:34 PM
Looking good Steve   8)

Are you running on glow plugs or spark ignition? I am coming to that stage fairly soon but the drawings are a bit thin on detail. They do show a contact breaker and distributor but no clues as to how to produce the HT. I could really do with some guidance in that area. The contact breaker is a hall switch but I know it doesn't have the capacity to drive a coil directly so I should very much appreciate your thoughts. In fact, I shall make that a general question for all of my friends here. Someone will know!

The two engines I have seen running have used a distributor and spark plugs. I am planning to use my ignition box I built from Mini Mag   :)

Quote

In the model, the pump is mounted on the end of the crankshaft. The drawing shows two M2 tapped holes in the back but I cannot see what they might be for. They are aligned with the joint line between bush and housing and there is no way of getting a bolt through from the back. Lars, how have you mounted your pump?

I would guess those are clearance holes and you need to tap the crankcase to fix the pump in place, maybe countersunk screws  :thinking: Looking forward to seeing your solution.

Jo
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Jasonb on May 09, 2019, 01:20:24 PM
The hall sensor gets tripped by the 4 magnets, you wire the sensor back to your chosen ignition be it TIM-6, one of Mini-Mags or S/S's box of tricks and the live wire back from the ignition unit goes to the central screw in the distributor which then sends the spark to the relevent plug via one of the 4 screws in the distributor.
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Lars on May 09, 2019, 01:59:04 PM
Steve,

Yes of course!  I'll post some pictures this evening when I am home from work. I'll make sure to include some of my failures.

I was very excited when I yesterday finally saw someone building the same engine. To me it has been a quite tough build based on the fragile nature and small size required of bolts etc.
Also I have had to make steel inserts for the plug threads, the aluminum casting thread was ruined following a few assembly/disassembly cycles.   

The waterpunp I mounted with two countersunk M2s or if it was M2.5s, I'll take a picture of my solution on this one as well. This connection between the waterpunp housing and the end of the engine case is not the best, I had very little material to drill/tap in I remember.

Lars

Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Lars on May 10, 2019, 12:30:24 AM
Steve,
Some more pictures of my build as I promised. I also included some descriptions on my build. I think you are doing a marvelous job on yours, I wish I had been in contect with you earlier!

I'll dig up more photos from the actual machining as well. I broke my phone a year ago (well.. actually it 'fell' very hard to the floor realizing we had made a mistake on the concrete pour on my holiday house I am building this year, so I have to figure out how to retreive some of the pictures from the backup one of these days)

- The block was fairly straight forward. Hard to get a grip on though I thought :). Boring went OK, I also had some chattermarks on the entrance of each bore.

- Crankshaft is press-fit and riveted through all connections. Not sure that is neccessary. Honestly I also put some loctite in there but I doubt very much got wettet in the end in due to that press-fit was fairly tight)
I chose to machine the center bearing surface after pressed togehter (see pic). Machined very slowly it was more of a rub to get the center aligned with the end bearing surfaces.
This is the reason I have a split in two-halfs center bearing, I also wanted to be able to change the bearing

- Pistons and piston rings more or less excectly as your build. When expanding the rings I had a water-bath below when heating the rings, that way when they stress-relaxed and fell of the fixture they got immediately quenched and hardened. Then I just annealed them by feel.

- Bearings etc: I also have pins to locate and fix the bearings & chamfered and drilled them for lubrication, nothing really intereting about those.  For the camshaft I drilled and tapped holes for set-screws to fix those bearings. I did include a spacer between the first cam and the bearing to automatically fix the shaft axially.

- Cylinder liners: Here I did something I regret. I made the liners stick out 0.05" approx from the bottom of the cylinder block. I did this to center the cylinders in the block in a good fashion. The problem I had was the connecting rods interfered and 3 and 9 o'clock and wanted to lift the cylinders so I had to grind the a chamfer into the liners after a press-fitted them. Didnt realise this until I was assembling the engine with pistons. 

- Rocker Arms: I wanted to really make them look slim and like forgings, and I had an idea that they would look unproportionally big (fat) if I machined them out, so I ended up silver-soldering each rocker out of 4 pieces (see pic). Not sure that was worth the effort in the end, but they look ok and works well.

- Carb: Here I made my own casing instead of using the aluminium casting block. I did this just because I thought it looked better in steel.  The carb was somewhat of a pain I thought and ate up some spare drills for those really small longbore holes. Still not sure the carb works 100% as I do not have the engine running well yet.

-Exhausts: Here I silver-soldered two pieces together to get a sharp bend. I may redo these as I think I like plain tubes better,but focus is to get it running good first. The lock nuts were just milled out

- Valves: I made the shaft of the valve in regular steel and the sealing surface is stainless (soldered to the shaft). Then machined. I do have an issue getting them to seal 100%. This is largely (I think) due to my own fumble, as when I had lapped all valves I managed to tip out the assortment box I sued for the valves onto the floor so everything was mixed up. I then re-lapped them but I may have ruined the surfaces. I am currently re-lapping a couple of valves that I know leaks to see the result

- Ignition: I am currently using glow plugs. The idea is to get the settings of the carb worked out with glow and then focus on creating a working spark ignition. I am using regular fuel though, not glow fuel. But O dear do 4 glowplugs require alot of current! Sideproject is going to be creating a stable flow of voltage through regular power outlet transformation.

- Water cooling: Silversoldered tubes on the inlet and outled with a nut connection to the waterpump and future cooler (I have no cooler yet).

Well that is at least a short summary of my approach on this engine, it has been a really fun build so far!
I also include som pictures below (two posts).

Thank you guys and all the best!

Thank you
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Lars on May 10, 2019, 12:32:02 AM
more pictures
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on May 10, 2019, 01:00:19 PM
Thanks Lars. That's wonderful! I am away for a couple of days but will reply properly on Sunday!

Steve  :)
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on May 12, 2019, 09:31:58 PM


I would guess those are clearance holes and you need to tap the crankcase to fix the pump in place, maybe countersunk screws  :thinking: Looking forward to seeing your solution.

Jo
[/quote]

Yes, my initial thought was that they should be for countersunk screws but they are drawn as tapped holes which is a puzzle. Their position doesn't allow for a screw head inside so. If I had thought about it earlier, I would have made the crankshaf a bit longer to allow me to have a heavy flange on the bush into which I could tap holes for the screws in a better position. Too late now! I'm sure something will come to me, probably at four in the morning!

Steve
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on May 12, 2019, 09:34:46 PM
The hall sensor gets tripped by the 4 magnets, you wire the sensor back to your chosen ignition be it TIM-6, one of Mini-Mags or S/S's box of tricks and the live wire back from the ignition unit goes to the central screw in the distributor which then sends the spark to the relevent plug via one of the 4 screws in the distributor.

Thanks Jason. The bit which puzzled me was what to put between the Hall switch and the distributor. However, I went to the Doncaster show yesterday and had a chat with the Minimag people. They have sold me a box of tricks which, when fired by the switch will in turn power a coil to give me the HT. I can see a solution clarifying through the fog!

Steve  :) 
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on May 12, 2019, 09:44:50 PM
Thank you Lars for taking the trouble to post so many photos and write such a clear explanation. They are most interesting and it is great to see how you have tackled the same problems. Your finish is much better than mine. You obviously have more patience! Your rockers are very nice indeed. On the few engines I have seen in photos they are very heavy and, you are quite correct, they just don't look right.

I did consider machining the centre journal on the crankshaft but couldn't see how to do it with the con rods thrashing around. As you can see, I took the brute force approach and just bent it into line! How did you avoid damage to the rods?

Your exhausts give a neat solution. Bending 8mm tube so tightly for them, as drawn, is going to be hard and the inlet manifold has the same issue. I am pondering them at the moment.

Thank you so much for your pictures. I really look forward to hearing how you get on with running it!

Steve   :cheers:
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Lars on May 13, 2019, 11:32:37 AM
Thanks Steve! Not sure at all that my finish is better. Thats the good thing about the 1024 picture limitation, you can't upload hi-res  :ROFL:

When machining the mid bearing surface on the crank I just let the rods slide on the support. Not optimal but with some regular tape as protection on the support I avoided scratching them.

I am curios to see your compression. It is a low compression engine but I still am a little worried on that from my end.

When I started (well tried to) it the first time I did not get it to self-sustain fireing. It fired on a couple of cylinders, which gives me hope, but still have a long way to go.

One thing I have to redo is the glow power, I am having a mains-driven glow driver board made from a friend to secure I have good glow on all 4 plugs for an extended period of time. When starting for the first time the batteries I had soldered together went out too fast.
The other item on the list is to relap some of the valves as I could hear and feel at least one exhaust valve leaking too much

Yes the inlet tubes were done several times.....in the end  I heated, bent until it was deformation hardened, heated, bent, heated bent until I had the shape I wanted.

I'll keep you updated on the progress. I hope to have 10 more hot (short thread, regular thread interfered with the pistons on my build) glow plugs in the mail today. I have scrapped 10 already trying to get my glow power sorted

Lars

Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on May 22, 2019, 09:17:02 PM
Thanks Lars. It is always great to hear how other people do things! With respect to compression, I don't know yet as I have not assembled it and lapped the valves. I am leaving the final assembly process to the end so I only get one go at damaging the paintwork. Well, that's the theory!

I have been thinking about bending the exhaust pipes and the inlet manifold. They are 8mm tube bent to quite tight radii which I can't do with my normal bender so I have made up a mandrel pipe bender to see if that will work.

(https://i.postimg.cc/ZKP2fCZp/DSCN8294.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

That was a nice job to do and quite satisfying, being made from bits lying around. This one shows it with the first trial bend in place.

(https://i.postimg.cc/CxLPm7cp/DSCN8296.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

It came out quite promising but there was a definite flat on the outer face.

(https://i.postimg.cc/xTQFbnHC/DSCN8297.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/J0VYxW2p/DSCN8298.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Looking at the bullet on the end of the mandrel, you can see that I had it just a little bit too far back. The full diameter needs to be just a whisker to the right of the centre line of the roller. I adjusted it over and had another go.

(https://i.postimg.cc/k5HpVSF3/DSCN8299.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

That worked well so I started getting cocky and put another bend in at 90°

(https://i.postimg.cc/5NmKBTqm/DSCN8301.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Now spot the deliberate mistake! How on earth do I dismantle it all?

(https://i.postimg.cc/wvsbDB0t/DSCN8302.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

I eventually got it apart and am quite pleased with the results. That is 8mm central heating tube bent to a centre-line radius of 12mm. It is much thinner than the photo suggests as I was lazy with my de-burring after using the tube cutter.

(https://i.postimg.cc/VsnV6dJp/DSCN8304.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Now I must use it to do some more engine.

Steve   :) 

Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Vixen on May 22, 2019, 09:40:43 PM
Hi Steve,

That's a neat little pipe bender. Some nice tight bends.

The trick seems to be in positioning the bullet in just the right position to prevent the tube flattening?

Do  you anneal the copper pipe in the bender or before you start?

I need to make one of those for my Mercedes W165 exhaust manifolds.

Mike
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on May 22, 2019, 09:55:23 PM
Hi Mike!

Glad you like it. Nothing to it really. I have now done precisely three bends so my experience is limited. However, my thoughts at the moment are that the bullet position is important and it needs to support the inside of the tube at the bend point. I started with it too far back so the tube pulled after it had cleared the end, resulting in a flat. The backing block needs to be pushed up quite hard as well so that there is no gap between it and the mandrel giving the tube no room to spread. The tubing I have used as it came but it is already soft. If it were hard, I would anneal it first. My exhaust pipes will be brass but that is quite hard so I will anneal that before I try leaning on it. I will post a report this weekend once I have had a proper go!

Steve  :)
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Vixen on May 22, 2019, 10:11:09 PM
Hello Steve,

What brass tube are you proposing to use? Is it the hard, thin wall K+S hobby tube? I will be interested to see how you get on

Best

Mike
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on May 22, 2019, 10:14:27 PM
Not sure, Mike. It is a bit I found in the corner whilst looking for material for the bender!

Steve  :)
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Vixen on May 22, 2019, 10:46:21 PM
It is a bit I found in the corner whilst looking for material for the bender!


Ha ha, only the best stuff then.

Mike
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: john mills on May 22, 2019, 10:56:04 PM
The bend look great  I have turned bullets or the end of mandrels for tube bending the end was profiled i get to fit around the corner as much as possible .the only cnc machine was the machining centre was using so i held them
in acollet in the spindle and a tool held in the vice.the profile on the end was much longer on the end than what yours look .these ones were made of a plastic.
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on May 24, 2019, 08:35:16 PM
Thanks John. I have never seen another one so it was all a bit of guesswork. It could probably do with a bit of refinement but time will tell!

Steve   :)
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on May 27, 2019, 09:39:56 PM
Time to put my pipe bender to work so I started with the exhaust pipes which are brass, bent at 30°. The brass was much harder to bend than the copper, even when annealed and the securing plate marked each one. Actually, you can see in this photo that I actually have the hole centres too far apart and the plate does not sit straight allowing the edge to cut in.

(https://i.postimg.cc/T3hxH8mT/DSCN8305.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/ydCzdkGN/DSCN8306.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

After cutting to length, I turned up some threaded ferrules which I silver soldered into place.

(https://i.postimg.cc/Pr5nPGS1/DSCN8307.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/qR1QFF2d/DSCN8308.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

A couple of hours in the pickle and a quick polish and they look OK although each does have a mark from the bender. I may be able to polish it out but we shall see.

(https://i.postimg.cc/BQLNhM6d/DSCN8310.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

On to the inlet manifold which isn't drawn at all so I had to make it up as I went along. This item proved tricky, even with the bender, There are two bends very close to each other in each part and I haven't quite sorted out how to achieve that. To that end, I started by making a new securing plate with the correct hole centres. That helped. I also filed the larger hole at an angle to allow it to move further along the tube.

(https://i.postimg.cc/1t01Nyxr/DSCN8313.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/FzPqjRT3/DSCN8315.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

It all helped but the I could not get the bends as close as I wanted. Still, the result was acceptable in the end.

(https://i.postimg.cc/x80DvBnD/DSCN8316.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

I sketched and filed some flanges.

(https://i.postimg.cc/P5cjg6zY/DSCN8309.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Then I held all the bits with a plug between the tubes and a clamp gripping the flanges to hold them in line.

(https://i.postimg.cc/qBLdJBxk/DSCN8317.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/xCfttQJR/DSCN8322.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

This worked surprisingly well and I am pleased with the results. I did use 10"of copper pipe to do them though!

(https://i.postimg.cc/Hnj31tt8/DSCN8325.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Onto more bits which aren't drawn. I started with the pump cover/inlet which is a fun piece of turning. I drilled and tapped for four 10BA screws to secure it.

(https://i.postimg.cc/RVkd2KJq/DSCN8327.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Then the propellor flange. I felt that it should be secured using studs and a cover plate and so laid them out.

(https://i.postimg.cc/J0gxrBT6/DSCN8326.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

The effect is quite pleasing. I also took the opportunity to try the timing gears for mesh. They are OK too!

(https://i.postimg.cc/sf0w9tVY/DSCN8328.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

I am running out of bits to make. I have just ordered some suitable metric taps and die for the carburettor so I can get on with that and it is time that I started thinking about the distributor. Then it will be time to put the thing together and see if I have any compression!

Steve   :)
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on May 27, 2019, 09:44:56 PM
Hello Steve,

Sure looking good, and the bender is really neat.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: TobyTetzy on May 27, 2019, 10:30:32 PM
Hello Steve,

looks very good.

Do you have some more infos about the bender?
My father had some problems to bend pipes.

Toby
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Art K on May 28, 2019, 03:37:36 AM
Steve,
The bender looks like a handy tool. I made one for 3/16 tube at work and It does a very tight corner but the tube being flat or not isn't a concern. But it isn't nearly as elegant as yours. Everything is coming along very well & looks very good.
Art
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Lars on May 28, 2019, 12:27:34 PM
Steve,
Tubes looking great,  and what a nice bending tool !

When bending my inlet tubes I also used up a fair ammount of tube length.  I did not have any pictures of my solution, but it was much less elegant then yours :)

Keep up the good work

Lars
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Vixen on May 28, 2019, 01:16:38 PM
Hello Steve,

Nice work and good progress. I like the neat pipework and also your design for the pipe bender

Mike
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on May 28, 2019, 08:25:29 PM
That's it! Blow the engine, look at the pipe bender!

Thank you chaps. You are all very kind. As the years have gone on, I have come to the conclusion that time spent making tools is never wasted. It is certainly much more satisfying doing the actual job easily and quickly. Mind you, I haven't shown you the pile of bits of bent pipe which have gone in the scrap! There is room for some refinement with this tool. Putting a bend in is easy. Putting in four which are supposed to be the same is much more difficult! It could do with a rotation stop which I may do if I have to do any more. For now, the tool has gone on the shelf until the next time.

What would you like to know, Toby? I only did one outline drawing just to lay it out. The rest, I made up as I went along using whatever bits and pieces I could find. The base is a piece of quarter plate with three blocks on it. One is the anchor for the mandrel, one is tapped for the roller adjuster and one is bolted underneath just so that I can hold it in the vice. The rollers are just slices of brass with a drilled hole in them running on silver steel pins. The backing block is a piece of 1/2" square aluminium with the groove cut with a ball-ended slot drill. Actually, it is too short but it was the only piece I had! The main pivot is a piece of 1 1/2" steel bar pressed into the plate and with a 1/2" hole through the middle for the quadrant to drop in. I turned the quadrant with a spanner to start with but it was a lot easier and more controllable with the greater length of my socket wrench tommy bar. The only quadrant piece I have made so far is for 8mm tube with a 12mm centre line radius. The key part for bending nice curves is the mandrel and this is a freely fitting plug which goes up the end. I had to play with the position to get it to bend nicely but it was fine with a drop of oil on it.

I'll take a couple more pictures but if there is anything you would like to know in particular then please just ask. Always pleased to help!

Steve  :)
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on June 07, 2019, 08:57:52 AM
Here are a few more details of the bender. Nothing very clever about it. If there is anymore you would like to know, Toby, please say!

(https://i.postimg.cc/xd7Grtbf/DSCN8332.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/CM870TNW/DSCN8333.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/FzvLmqF4/DSCN8335.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/cJV3kCV6/DSCN8336.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/bY1xM0YP/DSCN8337.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/6qCffnq9/DSCN8338.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

I have been doing a bit more finishing off of the crank case. First job was to drill holes for the breather and oil filler.

(https://i.postimg.cc/c4Nm49k6/DSCN8340.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

i have also drilled for some anti-rotation pegs for the bearings. The bearings have oil holes drilled in them but if they rotate in use, they won't work!

(https://i.postimg.cc/y81y0JHH/DSCN8341.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/W4f8NsxP/DSCN8329.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Time for the carburettor. This is starts as a small casting with a couple of chucking pieces. They help no end but it is still a pig to hold. There is not much metal around to spare either.

(https://i.postimg.cc/FsZjF9Jn/DSCN8342.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/Y0B1003T/DSCN8343.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/Hkn7pbmV/DSCN8344.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Holding it for the second hole was a challenge. I think I cut the chucking piece off too early but I got away with it in the end.

(https://i.postimg.cc/j50WQ977/DSCN8345.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/hv07Grh7/DSCN8347.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Not much meat around the holes!

(https://i.postimg.cc/JhBDXmG8/DSCN8348.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

On to the brass bits next.

Steve  :)
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Vixen on June 07, 2019, 10:02:46 AM
Hello Steve,

Good progress, you are nearly there. :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
It's the attention to all the small details, like anti-rotation pins for the bearings etc. that take the time. Not much to show, but essential for a reliable running engine.
And thanks for more detail of the pipe bender

Mike :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Lars on June 12, 2019, 11:19:59 PM
looking good Steve! The counterbores you have in the crank case, are you planning on using o-rings in them for a seal between the cylinders-liners-casing ?  I also made counterbores but use them to guide the liners (they stick out a few mills from the cylinders). I regret that though and would recommend O-rings, when I run my engine I get oil sipping after a while

You are getting close to first start!  My engine at least runs now, however still poorly as it won't rev properly so I am changing to another prop, I beleive the one I have may be too large ( I have a size 22) for the power I get out of my build currently)

Lars
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on June 16, 2019, 08:14:51 PM
Thanks for your thoughts, Lars. I shan't put an O-ring underneath the blocks as the groove wouldn't really trap it. I shall fit only a thin paper gasket.

I have managed to have a day in the shed today and have concentrated on the carburettor. The throttle is a barrel type with two outside threads and an internal one with a cross-hole to boot.

(https://i.postimg.cc/5tKrJDW1/DSCN8360.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

I lapped it into the housing using metal polish.

(https://i.postimg.cc/Ghn5bkVB/DSCN8362.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

The fuel inlet tube was very tricky and I made quite a lot of scrap. It is 2mm OD, 1.5mm bore with a 1mm cross-hole and 0.5mm orifice. The main problem was in getting the machining sequence right. I started by putting the cross-hole in first whilst the brass was at maximum diameter and stiffest. This turned OK afterwards but when drilling the bore, the bit wandered out of the side and the tube bent. I eventually settled on drilling the bore first, turning the OD to diameter in steps so that I could put the cross hole in next to the largest diameter and then returned it to the lathe for final turning. On parting off, I reversed it and drilled the 0.5mm orifice from the other end, holding the chuck in my fingertips so that I didn't break the bit. I succeeded but it was a bit of a painful exercise.

(https://i.postimg.cc/CLC65Rpc/DSCN8365.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Then turned up the needle valve for the jet and the mixture control. The 'needle' is really a pin stuck in a hole with Loctite. I have not quite fathomed how the mixture control functions.

(https://i.postimg.cc/YCpDWtpM/DSCN8367.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/YCbnNT9g/DSCN8368.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

A kit of parts ready for assembly.

(https://i.postimg.cc/7LhBKXGR/DSCN8369.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

There must be an actuating lever fitted to the barrel beneath the nut but this is not drawn. Neither is the dummy float chamber but I shall have a go at these shortly.

Steve   :)
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Lars on June 17, 2019, 10:26:05 PM
Steve,
Looking good. I had some broken drills and some attempts before sucessfully drilling the 'tube'

Man, it does suck to be me right now but I wanted to give you a heads up. I have been struggling with the compression on cylinder 3,4 for some reason for a while. Also, the engine ran ~ fine until it got warm, then it only ran on two cylinders 1,2 and never wanted to rev. I was sure it was leakage in the valves, so I relapped and even redid one valve and didn't think too much of the cold vs warm issue.
 
Today after becoming pretty sure I had a seal on the valves, I did a more thorough leakge test using water and blowing air into the intake and exhaust looking for air bubbles in the valves I realized they were just fine, but I had bubbles from what could only be a crack/porosity in the casting  :(

Looking into more detail, sure enough, there are some small small hairline defects that appearantly goes from the cylinder, into the waterjackets and are also connected into the intake bores. They probably open up enough during heat-up to a level where the compression goes completely away.

Hard to see on the picture, but before assembly I would just to a leak test to make sure your good to go. I have assembled/reassembled my engine probably 6 times now before I realized this issue

P.S, if anyone have a magic trick that somehow could solve this topic or have a casting that they think they will not use, I would be very much interested. But I assume my cyl 3,4 casting is scrap





Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: 90LX_Notch on June 17, 2019, 11:03:57 PM
Steve-

I have been following along for sometime and just noticed that I never commented.  Nice work and I like the tubing bender.

-Bob
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: bent on June 18, 2019, 06:54:41 PM
Given the amount of effort you've put in, I would try and seal the cracks.  Loctite in wicking grade, or similar (acrylic based) sealers, might do it and would be where I would start.  Paint the surfaces and then pull a vacuum on it from the backside if possible.  If not possible to do that, then dunk the whole part in resin and pull a vacuum (shop vac vacuum is usually enough, and cycling the vacuum on/off helps the sealant wicking by pulling bubbles out of the cracks).  The vacuum vessel could be a plastic bag if need be.  If the loctite acrylic resins fail to stop the leak, you can bake at around 400~500F to bake them out.  Sodium silicate is another method to try, paint it on and let it soak in (vacuum here can help too), then heat it up to about 250 F and let it foam out and seal.  We have vacuum impregnation done on our castings at work all the time, and have a local shop do the work in batches for us...might see if you can find one nearby and piggy back your parts in a production run.  The acrylic resins work fine at 250F and 10 bar pressure for us.
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Lars on June 19, 2019, 08:42:55 AM
Bent,

Thank you so much for these great tips,  I sincerecly appreciate your reply. I shall definetily try and see if I can get them to seal using a wicking loctite first and then go from there.
Yes, I certaintly had a bad moment summarizing all hours that went into the part so anything I can try to save it I will try.

-Steve, I apologize for diverting the thread with this topic, I shall start my own thread on my efforts to get my engine to run properly.

Thanks!
Lars
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on June 19, 2019, 10:21:52 AM
Hi Lars.

What a disappointment. A difficult one to find too. Do you think it is original porosity or has it happened later? I like your suggestions, Bent. All is not yet lost.

I have not yet tried the compression on mine as I haven't fitted the valves but the final assembly is getting closer. Don't worry about hijacking the thread. It is nice if all of the issues are in the same place so that anyone else doing one of these can find them all!

In the mean time, I have fitted the carburettor body to the inlet manifold tubes using Loctite. The bolt holes will need easing slightly but it is beginning to look nice.

(https://i.postimg.cc/y8BmwZN9/DSCN8370.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/8zHRDzFY/DSCN8371.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Good luck Lars!

Steve
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: sco on June 19, 2019, 10:55:25 AM
Certainly does look nice!  Making my palms itch to start mine too!

Simon.
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on June 19, 2019, 01:21:59 PM
It is beginning to sound as if therre are quite a few sets of castings out there but not many people have made one. I can't criticise as my castings were on the shelf for two years before I started cutting metal!

 Steve  :)
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Jo on June 19, 2019, 01:53:49 PM
It is beginning to sound as if therre are quite a few sets of castings out there but not many people have made one. I can't criticise as my castings were on the shelf for two years before I started cutting metal!

Only two years worth of casting aging  :facepalm:

Steve - you must have brought yours just after we brought ours at the Midlands show in 2016. We are still aging ours ;)

Jo
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on June 19, 2019, 09:30:24 PM
Actually, I have just realised that I bought the castings in 2012. Time flies.....

Lars.

I have just been looking at the carburettor again and have at last fathomed how it works. Did you set yours up so that it richens the mixture as you open the throttle or so that it weakens the mixture? I am not quite sure which is the correct way to do it!

Cheers!

Steve  :) 
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Lars on June 19, 2019, 10:07:34 PM
Hi Steve

Engine looks great. I like your bends on the carb manifold tubes, for me it took a while to get the carb aligned horizontally with the engine. Yours look spot on.

haha, yes, It took me a while to figure out the carb function as well. Now I am not sure I did things 100% right, but at least the engine fired well on 2 out of 4 cylinders with my carb settings so this is how I set it up:

I have the throttle 'needle' (as you know it is a flat needle going into the hollow tube) adjusted so that when the throttle is at ~idle (1/8 opening maybe?) I can barely see the opening in the small atomizer hole in the tube, hence almost blocket by the 'needle' . Then as the throttle is advanced the hole is almost 100% clear of the needle att fulll throttle.
(For adjustment I turn the fuel inlet assembly so that the hole in the tube is visible from the air inlet side of the carb)
However, honestly through the effort so far of getting a running engine I found this needle to make much less difference than the fuel inlet needle.

For the fuel inlet needle I had approx a turn and a half, then the engine would fire well idle-->half throttle, but would require me to open up the valve half a turn more to get it to fire on 3/4 to full throttle

But as you know, I have not been able to get my engine to run very well as I have the leakage issue so I am sure I have much more adjustment to do when the engine is more healthy.

In my endeavour to save my casting and with the great advice from Bent, I today took the Loctite 209 290 which is the lowest viscosity one I could think of and tried to vacuum seal the casting. (Filled the top part with loctite and pulled air out of the waterjacket inlet, then cleaning leftovers and left to set). I am certaintly holding my thumb for this to work. I will do another leak test tomorrow when it has had a chance to cure. 

Sounds great if you allow to have the dialouge on the mercedes engine in your thread

Thanks!
Lars
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on June 23, 2019, 10:11:56 AM
Ok Lars. You have set the throttle to lean the mixture at idle and richen it as you advance the throttle. As it is a barrel throttle, it can be opened by turning it either way. Turning it clockwise winds the flat ended mixture needle in, reducing the jet size so you must be opening the throttle by turning it anti-clockwise. This thing is a puzzle. I am looking forward to playing with it!

In the meantime, I have made up a dummy float chamber.

(https://i.postimg.cc/cHBVdhF9/DSCN8372.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/br6WtJc1/DSCN8376.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Now, the throttle lever. This isn't drawn but appears to screw onto the end of the throttle barrel. I roughed out a shape from a piece of 1/8" aluminium.

(https://i.postimg.cc/ZKR1hrpH/DSCN8381.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Now spot the challenge! I couldn't screw it right on as it fouls the manifold. In the end, my cure for that was to drill the thread out and clamp onto the outside of the thread. I may have to turn up a new barral with just a plain shank for the lever to grip.

(https://i.postimg.cc/GpkfjznL/DSCN8383.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/FsBwF7x4/DSCN8384.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Quite a lot of time with a needle file but I am pleased with the result.

(https://i.postimg.cc/9f3STKSg/DSCN8387.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Finished and ready to fit!

(https://i.postimg.cc/y83tDsfS/DSCN8388.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

The last time I spoke to Adrian, who supplies the castings, he said that he was looking at getting the valve rockers investment cast and would I like a set? Well, that would save a huge amount of repetetive work so yes please! Here they are, beautifully presented. Finishing them off is my next task.

(https://i.postimg.cc/tRDLfrZ7/DSCN8378.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/D0fR0GD2/DSCN8375.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

I have ordered some Delrin for the distributor so I am almost at the point of final assembly. I can't see that being a quick job though!

Steve  :)
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: steamer on June 23, 2019, 02:50:26 PM
That's looking a treat Steve.   Those castings look amazing as well!

Dave
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on June 24, 2019, 07:29:21 PM
Thanks Dave. Yes, I think they look good too. Devils to hold though!

(https://i.postimg.cc/Nf6d3zyT/DSCN8390.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/Sxmgkf8P/DSCN8391.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/JzKPnH5z/DSCN8393.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Time to start on the final assembly, finishing bits off properly. I shall make up the push rods on assembly. Distributor remains to be done and then it will be the moment of truth!

Steve  :)
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: bent on June 25, 2019, 06:13:36 PM
Wow, looking good Steve!
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Lars on July 11, 2019, 07:58:28 AM
Steve,

Oh man does those rocker arm castings look great !!!  I wish so that I would have had one of those sets !

I silver-soldered my rocker arms out of 4 pieces each to get a thin good looking part and it took a loong time just due to the small size, holding and getting the welder to heat where I needed witouth unsoldering other pieces etc.... and at the end I have 8 individual looking ones (well if you look close at least you can see I was unable to get them to look identical)

Nice!

Lars
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Craig DeShong on July 12, 2019, 12:41:41 AM
The model is shaping up nicely, looks great  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on July 12, 2019, 08:38:10 PM
Yes, Lars. These castings really save some time. I was pondering over how I was going to make them!

Thanks Craig. I really must find some time to go back in the shed and finish the job. I have a piece of Delrin for the distributor and the rest just needs assembling. Unfortunately, life is getting in the way!

Steve   :)
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on August 03, 2019, 08:49:45 AM
Greetings!

This summer has been a bit busy. However, the plumber has gone, the house is drying out and my books are OK so all is well and I am back in the shed. I am now in the process of final assembly.

I have been pondering my cylinders and the tightness at the top of the stroke. they weren't right so I finally decided to bite the bullet and lap them. First job was to make the lap so I took Jo's advice and used a taper pin reamer to machine the bore of the lap. I then set the reamer up in the chuck to allow me to set the topslide over at the right angle.

(https://i.postimg.cc/zvdSXwNQ/DSCN8397.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

The mandrel was just a bit of bar out of the drawer.

(https://i.postimg.cc/HLG0xkGT/DSCN8399.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

I tapped the lap onto the taper and machined it to size before removing it and cutting some slots with the hacksaw. One went right through of course.

(https://i.postimg.cc/ZRH6VPWq/DSCN8400.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/qMRxDFXH/DSCN8402.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

I then loaded it with 'Autosol' metal polish and held the block whilst rotating the lap. as the lap eased off, I just tapped it up the taper a bit more for another bite. The bores come up surprisingly quickly so there was another job done. By the way, I took the picture with the lathe stationary as two hands and careful concentration were required to avoid disaster!

(https://i.postimg.cc/YCLfMmsX/DSCN8404.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

My experience of old engines suggests that the blocks should be held down with studs rather than bolts so I made some up. A tedious job but it worked out OK.

(https://i.postimg.cc/ZYfrNck7/DSCN8407.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/vmWr6wMf/DSCN8408.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Time for the camshaft. Tappets in first and then wangle the camshaft. It took some fiddling but went in the end. The end bearings were a bit of a puzzle though. If I pressed them in, then I wouldn't be able to get the camshaft out again. However, if they were loose then they would move in service. I decided to put some locking screws into the side of the crank case to secure them.

(https://i.postimg.cc/qR48sDMY/DSCN8409.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/05ZCfvSC/DSCN8410.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Time to drop the crank in. Each bearing has an anti-rotation peg to locate it and keep the oil holes pointing the right way. Then all was secured with the centre bearing cap.

(https://i.postimg.cc/6q1nN9LJ/DSCN8412.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Now the timing gears don't line up!

(https://i.postimg.cc/5ytLGHzS/DSCN8413.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

A quick skim off the removable camshaft bushing and all was well.

(https://i.postimg.cc/50sFwxrY/DSCN8415.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

File up a square key for the propellor boss.

(https://i.postimg.cc/YqhQzWMp/DSCN8418.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

The camshaft gear wheel is intended to have a 3mm grub screw to secure it. My workshop is imperial so I tapped it 5BA. However, I then found that grub screws are made in 2, 4 and 6BA! I have been making do with a slotted screw but it didn't look right. A hex head didn't look right either so I have made up a square head locking screw from silver steel.

(https://i.postimg.cc/5tqz25qm/DSCN8419.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

It is still a bit 'heavy' but not so obviously wrong.

(https://i.postimg.cc/xThMx11L/DSCN8420.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Finally, this week, some sump plugs.

(https://i.postimg.cc/Y9rWG4dB/DSCN8422.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Coming on!

(https://i.postimg.cc/1zZ6S76t/DSCN8426.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

The blocks are in the paint shop at the moment so time to finish the sump and the oil tray.

It is good to be back!

Steve :)



Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Roger B on August 03, 2019, 11:08:37 AM
That's some good progress  :praise2:  :wine1:
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: stevehuckss396 on August 03, 2019, 11:26:53 AM
That Looks like some top notch work there. Do you plan to remove some more metal off the crankshaft? just curious.
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on August 03, 2019, 01:49:00 PM
Thanks Chaps.

My original plan was to build it exactly to drawing apart from the metric fasteners, so the crank will stay as it is. However, if I had drawn it myself, it would be much more slender and more representative of the original. I may do that yet if this one doesn't survive!

Steve  :)
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Jo on August 03, 2019, 03:12:41 PM
My experience of old engines suggests that the blocks should be held down with studs rather than bolts so I made some up. A tedious job but it worked out OK.
..
It is good to be back!

Steve :)

Real Studs  :Love: Have you thought of using a 1/8 whit grubscrew instead of a 5BA? Much easier to come by. I normally use 1/8 whit in place of 5BA for conrod Allen screws they are dirt cheap rather than rare as rocking horse do-dahs  ::)

Nice to see you in the workshop, I thought it was lorry weather  :noidea:

Jo
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Vixen on August 03, 2019, 07:26:33 PM
Nice work Steve.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

It's always amazing how much work and time is consumed getting those last little bits made and then made to fit, when all you wanted to do is just to bolt the engine together.

What are your plans for the next engine?

Mike
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on August 03, 2019, 10:17:40 PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/Y9RY6wH0/DSCN8427.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Quite r.ight Mike. It takes ages and you keep finding other little challenges! Like today. I thought I would just screw in the oil tray. I did that but found that the big ends just scrape it at BDC. I can get around that but the actual function of it now puzzles me.

(https://i.postimg.cc/v8P5DMhS/DSCN8429.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

As you can see, there are what Heinz calls a levelling hole and an overflow. These cannot, however, be doing anything useful in this engine. If the engine had, as originally built, a forced lubrication system then they would be good as the oil leaving the big ends would fill the tray, overflow into the sump and be recirculated. However, this is a splash lubricated engine. There is no pump to top up the tray so the oil level of the engine has to be set at the right height when filling and the sump is just dead volume. The centre divider means that half of the engine could have a low oil level and there is no way of telling what is in the engine. On thinking this through, I have decided to do away with the tray and fit a level plug. That way, I can tell when the engine is full and the full volume of oil can be used.

(https://i.postimg.cc/yYt9XPwm/DSCN8430.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

For a bit of light relief, I decided to fit the pump and promptly tripped over the next challenge. When mounted in this position, the pump outlet interferes with the contact breaker and distributor on the end of the camshaft. The picture on the drawing booklet shows the engine without distributor fitted and Lars is running on glow plugs and has also avoided the problem. One to ponder for a few days.

(https://i.postimg.cc/4yFc0bnT/DSCN8433.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

After that, the dummy oil drain pipes were easy!

(https://i.postimg.cc/TYpgDSH2/DSCN8435.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

I have started lapping valves and have fitted the first valve spring.

(https://i.postimg.cc/mkrMV6Lw/DSCN8437.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

How gas tight would you expect the valves to be? If I blow up the bore, I can feel the air escaping very slowly so they certainly aren't perfect. I expect that compression would hold for a couple of seconds if the crank were to be turned to TDC. What would you expect?

More valve lapping tomorrow!

Steve  :)
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on August 03, 2019, 10:21:39 PM
Thanks for the grubscrew thoughts, Jo. The main problem was that I had tapped the hole before identifying the grub screw. I just thought I would be able to get them!

When were hex grub-screws first used? I have never found any on my 100 year old engines so I don't think they would be right on this model anyway. I guess that the timing gear should be secured on a taper with key and a large nut on the end of the camshaft. Too late to do anything about them now!

Steve  :)
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Roger B on August 04, 2019, 08:18:28 AM
The valves should be tight with breath pressure. Are you sure that the leak is past the valves and not via the spark plug thread or valve cage (if it has them)?
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: fumopuc on August 04, 2019, 08:22:56 AM
Hi Steve, nice progress. I am also just fiddling around with a gear train.
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Jasonb on August 04, 2019, 01:31:42 PM
The oil tray as it is I can't see it doing a lot. usually they have end plates so that once the oil has been flung out it will only flow back into the tray at a slow rate through the overflow hole. Have a look at the Puma thread where I posted a picture of one that works.

The other trick with grub screws is to use a socket one for ease and strength then when the engine is set up and running OK make a small square head to screw onto the exposed end.

(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Engineering/Cameron%20Steam%20Pump/IMAG3569_zpse49277ce.jpg)
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on August 05, 2019, 05:53:28 PM
Well, that was a tedious day! I spent it lapping in the valves. Thank you for your guidance, Roger. That encouraged me to persist! I started off by greasing both valves and fitting them along with a spark plug. That sealed them up nicely and allowed me to see if there were any leaks around the cage or liner. Then I took one out and cleaned it and blew again to see how bad it was. I lapped it using a screwdriver and fine valve grinding paste followed by Autosol metal polish until it was tight. (the screwdriver slot in the valve head certainly paid off). Once I was satisfied, I fitted the spring and did the second one. All very successful but dull in the extreme!

I had to fit the blocks to see what it was going to look like.

(https://i.postimg.cc/pXf6Rj2H/DSCN8438.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/52fk0t0F/DSCN8441.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Looking promising.

Thank you for your thoughts on grub screws, Jason, and your views on oil trays. I like the idea of allowing the oil to flow slowly back in but I don't think it will work well here as there is insufficient reservoir space around the tray. One for the future, perhaps.

Rockers next!

Steve  :)
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Johnmcc69 on August 05, 2019, 09:13:35 PM
 :ThumbsUp:
 Beautiful!

 John
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Dave Otto on August 06, 2019, 12:24:18 AM
Looking very nice!

Dave
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Art K on August 06, 2019, 03:33:39 AM
Steve,
Just caught up on your last set of posts. Good work, lots of details to keep track of.
Art
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: tomherb on August 09, 2019, 02:44:40 PM
That is truly a beautiful bit of workmanship there, Steve!   :praise2: :praise2:
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Vixen on August 09, 2019, 03:29:09 PM
I can only echo what John, Dave, Art and tom have already said.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

Mike
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: steam guy willy on August 09, 2019, 05:25:28 PM
when you make the studs that go in AL3  the part that is in the casting is usually a course thread and the part for the steel nut is usually a fine thread ?  When you lap in the valves you usually just lap about a 1/5th of the valve , not the whole valve..??!! this is what i do with my Morris Minor  !!!
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on August 09, 2019, 06:04:57 PM
Thank you chaps. You are all being far too kind. I am only an average model engineer and if you read the thread, most of my posts are about getting out of trouble I shouldn't have got into in the first place! As long as everyone is enjoying it as much as I am. You have all given me wonderful advice and a great boost to get on!

I have found a couple of hours this week and so started by fitting the rockers. They just needed a little dressing with a file to clear the slots so that the E-clips could be fitted.

(https://i.postimg.cc/Lsj8dsVH/DSCN8442.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/fyRz0fQL/DSCN8446.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Those clips are tricky things. I bought a packet of twenty and need sixteen for the engine. I had been warned that they are inclined to ping off into the wilderness, never to be seen again but managed to fit them without losing any although I did spend quite a lot of time on my knees!

(https://i.postimg.cc/7htx1JqN/DSCN8447.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Then time for the push rods. they were quite straightforward and just needed adjusting to length to fit each position.

(https://i.postimg.cc/kMTXPzWt/DSCN8451.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Now I can turn the engine and watch the valves go up and down which is most satisfying. It seems that I made the locking bolt in the timing gear a touch short as I can't quite get it tight enough and the gear slides around the camshaft. I will have to make a longer one and dimple the shaft.

(https://i.postimg.cc/76DYqyBS/DSCN8452.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Mike asked what the next engine will be. Well, it is this one, a Peerless TC4 lorry engine of 1915 vintage which, as you can see is installed in a lorry.

(https://i.postimg.cc/Wbf3gC3P/DSCN6855.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/cHm1H5j2/DSCN7019.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

We have started stripping it down and generally, it is quite nice apart from a couple of horrors. Nothing like a challenge!

(https://i.postimg.cc/vHjYcnqY/DSCN7718.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

If I make another model engine, it will be a Liberty, assuming I live long enough. Has anyone ever made one?

Steve  :)

Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on August 09, 2019, 06:11:17 PM
when you make the studs that go in AL3  the part that is in the casting is usually a course thread and the part for the steel nut is usually a fine thread ?  When you lap in the valves you usually just lap about a 1/5th of the valve , not the whole valve..??!! this is what i do with my Morris Minor  !!!
Hi Willy.

Yes, I have seen fine and coarse threads on studs in aluminium and agree that it is good practice. Too much trouble for me in this instance though. These are just 7BA at both ends.

I have never heard of just lapping part of a valve. How do you do that? On my lorries, I have always done the whole valve although when lapping, have just oscillated the valve rather than giving a continuous rotation. Always something new to learn!

Steve  :)
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Vixen on August 09, 2019, 06:40:30 PM

Mike asked what the next engine will be. Well, it is this one, a Peerless TC4 lorry engine of 1915 vintage which, as you can see is installed in a lorry.

We have started stripping it down and generally, it is quite nice apart from a couple of horrors. Nothing like a challenge!

(https://i.postimg.cc/vHjYcnqY/DSCN7718.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)


A 1915 vintage Peerless TC4, nice find.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

Dont worry about the piston, it should pollish out.  :Jester:

Seriously, What do you have to do to a piston for the skirt to get damaged like that?

If it's an iron piston and the bits are still in the sump, could you braze it back together? I did something similar with the cylinder liner of a single cylinder race engine. It went on to win many more races.

Mike
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Roger B on August 09, 2019, 06:50:15 PM
Turn it round and let it run like that  :stir:
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Elam Works on August 10, 2019, 12:10:39 AM
Quote from: Old Bill
If I make another model engine, it will be a Liberty, assuming I live long enough. Has anyone ever made one?

A few years back I had some time to kill and modeled 95% of the engine at 1/4 scale on the computer. I think the water galleries in the inlet manifold(s) and the air plenum are the only things left to do, as they had some of the most complex surfaces and were putting a hurt'n on the computer I had at the time. Did some 3D printing to study machining strategies, and that was enough to scare me off! 

Lou Chenot was working on a pair in 1/6 scale Liberty V12s (you did not specify 4, 6, 8 or twelve cylinders) for a Garr Wood speed boat project. Not sure if that got finished. You can see part of the progress here, scroll about halfway down the webpage:

https://www.craftsmanshipmuseum.com/Chenot.htm

Alan Ingersoll built a Curtiss V12, a not too dissimilar project, also in 1/6th scale. That looks like it was nearly finished. Again, link to page at the Craftsmanship Museum, and you will need to scroll down the page to get to the Curtiss pics.

https://www.craftsmanshipmuseum.com/Ingersol.htm

-Doug



[fix typo.  09Aug19  -Doug]
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: stevehuckss396 on August 10, 2019, 12:33:53 AM
The Garwood
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on August 17, 2019, 07:58:33 PM
My goodness, those are fabulous models. I haven't found them before so thank you for bringing them to my attention. I think a Liberty will remain a pipe dream but a nice one to think about.

The Peerless pistons were broken by the chap we bought the engine from. When he lifted the block off, he alllowed the rods to swing sideways and punch out the sides of two pistons as they articulated over. It has been suggested before that we just put them back but it wouldn't feel right so we will just knock up some replacemnts. Frustrating though as it is an unneccessary job. Oh well.

I have managed to find a couple more hours this week and have continued with my final assembly efforts.

Time to bite the bullet and get on with the pump. Two countersunk screws from inside the housing would have been ideal. However, there was no room to get a countersink in if  the holes lined up with the aluminium crank case so I settled for a tapped hole in line with the crank case and then tapped it and inserted a 1/16" peg.

(https://i.postimg.cc/mgQLkgXb/DSCN8453.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/9XKCB7sm/DSCN8455.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/kXS9Y5dx/DSCN8456.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/52qJ1kyy/DSCN8459.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/3Nshrs24/DSCN8460.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

It worked OK so I set about making a locking screw for the impellor.

(https://i.postimg.cc/13ZSkZ9b/DSCN8461.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Then the O-ring went into the groove behind the impellor before that was installed.

(https://i.postimg.cc/brD8hySf/DSCN8462.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/3w13jbQV/DSCN8464.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Studs and gaskets for the inlet manifold next.

(https://i.postimg.cc/0QHxFMQC/DSCN8467.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/tTfQDKSS/DSCN8470.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Manifold was fitted along with the spark plugs and then the exhaust pipes. It is necessary to remove the push rods to fit the plugs, I find.

(https://i.postimg.cc/8CZVfJhV/DSCN8472.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/9fmhftwp/DSCN8476.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

It is looking very close now but still needs the water pipes, contact breaker and distributor. First though, I must make a display stand so that I am no longer in danger of knocking it over and breaking something. I have found a scrap of mahogany in the garage that will do the trick so watch this space!

Steve   :)

Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Admiral_dk on August 17, 2019, 10:17:07 PM
Looks amazing - you should be pleased with appearance  :praise2:

Hopefully not too long before first pops  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Roger B on August 18, 2019, 08:08:36 PM
Splendid  :praise2:  :praise2: There does not look to be much space between the plug conections and the push rods or is it just the angle of the picture?
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on August 18, 2019, 10:08:35 PM
Thanks Chaps. It is beginning to look like a proper paper-weight!

Yes, the plugs are very close to the push rods which could provide some interesting challenges. The engines running on Youtube appear to be on glow plugs and I think Lars' is as well. Is that right Lars? I wonder if that is telling me something!

Are there any neat clips available for these plugs? I don't really want big push-on connectors as I suspect that they would originally have had brass spade connectors secured with screw-down nuts and I don't want to look too wrong. I haven't searched this forum for ideas on the subject yet but any thoughts would be most appreciated.

Steve   :)
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Art K on August 19, 2019, 02:59:03 AM
Steve,
Sorry to be jumping in here late but like Steve, I have some to add to the V12 Liberty engine. I'll throw some photos in, then talk.
(https://i.postimg.cc/tg4D9XhX/DSCN6809.jpg)
This Photo was as Lou had the Garwood 33-50 in 2017 at the NAMES show.
(https://i.postimg.cc/43WLcKJ7/DSCN2396.jpg)
(https://i.postimg.cc/1t4Wr9tW/DSCN2397.jpg)
These two photos were as he had the engine in 2013 at the NAMES show. At this time I remember talking with him and the struggles he had trying to accurately build this engine to scale. As I recall he resorted to using molded plastic for the outer water jacket because scaling it in metal left the wall thickness in the area of thousands of an inch. And as I recall the cam covers are very similar and are also molded in plastic. It is 1/6 scale and not meant to run, but the detail is phenomenal.
So are you going to model the Peerless engine or just make a new pair of pistons. :mischief:
Art
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Roger B on August 19, 2019, 10:14:29 AM
These clips are one of the smallest connectors I have seen:

http://www.model-engine-ignition.com/home/spark-plugs-clips--wire/rimfire-r2l-spark-plug

Making your own versions should not be much of a problem however the pushrods may be  :headscratch:
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Lars on August 21, 2019, 08:58:54 PM
Steve,

Sorry for not replying earlier. I have been building my new winter cabin this summer and it took the overhand

Yes, I have glow ignition on my engine for now. My rational is to get it running well and then potentially put spark ignition in as a challenge. It is really tight to fit.

And actually - I have a runner !!

I made my first attempt on uploading a youtube video. Of course I had the camera 90 deg wrong when filming, I guess I am not an expert. Also never been on facebook or similar so I hope I did things right on the upload.

The link to my first really sucessful run is on the link below

ibPkXC8fBV4
I have found my engine is less sensetive then I thought wrt the mixture settings, I can get it to idle well and accelerate fairly ok without much trouble with my carb. I have found however that it is more sensetive to varying compression being cold/warm than I was expecting.

I have been trying out my cast iron rings and also viton o-rings. I also forgot how many times I have looked for leaks in the valves..when I accidentily mixed the valves (dropping the box on the floor after grinding them to the seats)  I never have been able to get them to seal perfectly

Anyway, it runs :)  and with your excellent build it won't be long until yours are up and running as well!

Thank you
Lars 



 
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on August 21, 2019, 09:54:57 PM
Well done Lars! Magnificent! I only hope mine goes as well!

Thanks for the wonderful pictures, Art. That engine really is a work of art in itself. There are some people out there who have the most unbelievable skills and I can only say that I am pleased that I have enough knowledge to understand how good it is. The aero engine in the background looks intriguing too!

I shall make two new pistons for the Peerless engine and then rebuild the whole thing along with the rest of the truck. That will keep me out of mischief for a few years whilst I contemplate the project after that, whatever it may be.

Thanks for the link Roger. I could probably file out something like that. Some experimentation is required, I think.

Steve  :)
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: sco on August 22, 2019, 08:13:08 AM
Steve,

Sorry for not replying earlier. I have been building my new winter cabin this summer and it took the overhand

Yes, I have glow ignition on my engine for now. My rational is to get it running well and then potentially put spark ignition in as a challenge. It is really tight to fit.

And actually - I have a runner !!

I made my first attempt on uploading a youtube video. Of course I had the camera 90 deg wrong when filming, I guess I am not an expert. Also never been on facebook or similar so I hope I did things right on the upload.

The link to my first really sucessful run is on the link below

ibPkXC8fBV4
I have found my engine is less sensetive then I thought wrt the mixture settings, I can get it to idle well and accelerate fairly ok without much trouble with my carb. I have found however that it is more sensetive to varying compression being cold/warm than I was expecting.

I have been trying out my cast iron rings and also viton o-rings. I also forgot how many times I have looked for leaks in the valves..when I accidentily mixed the valves (dropping the box on the floor after grinding them to the seats)  I never have been able to get them to seal perfectly

Anyway, it runs :)  and with your excellent build it won't be long until yours are up and running as well!

Thank you
Lars

Brilliant result Lars, that is a really nice runner and sounds terrific!

Simon.
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on August 29, 2019, 10:31:01 AM
I have too many interests. I have just spent a wonderful few days playing with a Sentinel steam waggon, storming up and down the A5 to a rally and back. Tremendous fun but not helping engine progress!

I have been getting concerned that I might knock the engine over and do some damage so I have made up a display stand to keep it safe. Being a miserly type, when I last broke up some old furniture, I kep the drawer fronts which were mahogany. I found one in the garage and despite being well beaten up, it cleaned up nicely and was just the right size. You can't have too much 'stuff' in your shed!

(https://i.postimg.cc/xThpm3DY/DSCN8479.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/q7dmbBv5/DSCN8480.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Now I am on the home straight with the engine, I am making up the water pipes. First job was some new tooling for the pipe bender. Unfortunately, I had a moment when I got confused between centre line radius and external radius so the first tool is too big. Oh well. At least it will do for another day.

(https://i.postimg.cc/vmL0pR1H/DSCN8482.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Just going out in the shed to bend some copper.

Steve   :)
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Vixen on August 29, 2019, 11:28:07 AM
Hi Steve

Nice draw fronts  :Jester: :Jester:

Mike
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on August 30, 2019, 03:42:04 PM
Yes, a well-seasoned piece of mahogany. It really is a nice piece of timber underneath the old paint and damage and it didn't cost me anything!

I have been pressing on with the water pipes, starting with the pipe bender. i didn't need to make a bullet support to stop it crushing this time.

(https://i.postimg.cc/0jdnqpTy/DSCN8483.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Then a slot for the centre pipe.

(https://i.postimg.cc/7ZQVDPW0/DSCN8484.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

I bent the centre pipe and then filed half away so that it sat on the main pipe for soldering.

(https://i.postimg.cc/rwpJvRQq/DSCN8486.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/59qSySrx/DSCN8487.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

After cleaning and pickling the return pipe assembly, I turned up a union for the pump. None of this is shown on the drawings so it was a case of making it up as I went.

(https://i.postimg.cc/d1Gm82tj/DSCN8489.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Then onto the inlet pipe. This is a fiendish bit of bending as I had to rotate the water pump to miss the distributor so the outlet points the wrong way.

(https://i.postimg.cc/J0qNFRXy/DSCN8490.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Stb pipe in place ready for soldering.

(https://i.postimg.cc/5tYmtchG/DSCN8492.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Soldered , dressed and polished.

(https://i.postimg.cc/TY007Jjk/DSCN8494.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

And that is it, mechanically complete.

(https://i.postimg.cc/8C2mJKDC/DSCN8495.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/xTfyzbrL/DSCN8496.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Just the ignition system to go now. There are drawings for the components but they are challenging!

Steve     :)

Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Vixen on August 30, 2019, 04:05:23 PM
Hello Steve,

It just gets better and better  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

What are you going to do about a radiator? There are some well made and inexpensive small radiators on -bay intended for liquid cooled PC's

What is the compression ratio? is it enough (8:1 ish) for you to consider methanol fuel and glow plugs, would be a lot simpler than petrol and sparks.

Regards

Mike
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Roger B on August 30, 2019, 08:09:27 PM
Nice pipework  :praise2:  :praise2: I have been through similar for the exhaust on my two cylinder engine. I have also made a couple of connectors for 1/4 32 spark plugs. Hopefully they will work  ::)
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Admiral_dk on August 30, 2019, 09:29:23 PM
Really looks great so far and you should be happy with the result.

Best wishes

Per
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Art K on August 31, 2019, 03:51:39 AM
Steve,
Sorry for the slow reply, life has gotten in the way. I went back and looked at the other photos from the 2013 NAMES show and yes you could say it is some sort of aero engine, it is a second Liberty set up with a prop where the one in the foreground is set up for the boat.
Art
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on August 31, 2019, 07:35:01 AM
Thanks for sharing them Art. They are wonderful pieces of work.

Mike. I don't think I shall trouble with a radiator. This is my display stand and how I intend to show it. When I run it, I shall knock up something just to hold it and probably use the classic bean tin to hold some water. It won't run for long or more than a few times before being relegated to 'paper-weight' status. I don't know the compression ratio but the two engines on Youtube and Lars' all run on glow plugs. I would like to use spark ignition for the challenge although I think keeping the sparks in the right place is going to be tough. The plug connections are very close to the push rods and, to look right, the HT leads need to be quite small in diameter. What sort of leads have you used on your engines? Standard HT lead is just too big.

Thanks Roger. Good luck with the connectors. I shall look forward to seeing them.

Thanks Per. Yes, I am pleased with the result and it makes a nice ornament. At least it is small enough to go on the book case and be admired!

I want to start on the contact breaker this morning.

Steve  :)
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Vixen on August 31, 2019, 12:11:44 PM
Hello Steve

Recycled draw fronts and baked bean can water tanks,  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: I love it

For a good source of small diameter ignition leads have a look at 'silicon test leads for multimeters'. They will probably be rated 600v or 1000v but are well capable of containing the spark voltage of a model engine. You can trust test leads from RS and the like but I would be cautious of the low cost stuff on Evil-bay.

For a miniature connection to the spark plug, it is possible to use a piece of coil spring of the right diameter and wire thickness. I cut off half a dozen turns and straighten a short length which is pushed down the centre of the spark lead. If you twist and turn the spring in the right direction, it opens the coil slightly which lets you slip it over the plug end. Twisting the spring in the other direction closes the spring slightly thus locking it onto the plug.  Works for me, as they say, but you may need to dig into that box of odd springs we all keep and experiment.

One picture speaks a thousand words.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10013/P1070507.JPG)

Mike
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on August 31, 2019, 01:30:16 PM
Thanks Mike. I hadn't come across either of those.

Cheers!

Steve   :zap:
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Jasonb on August 31, 2019, 01:39:10 PM
Engine is certainly looking good

I too have used the silicon insulated wire, usually get it from S/S who do the ignitions but for the older engines I have found that the cotton braided wire works fine and being about 3.5mm dia not too out of scale when compared to 8mm HT wire on the larger scale hit & miss engines.

S/S also do a couple of options for small plug caps as well as the flat "forked" type that clip onto the top of the plug but the later may well short on your engine even with heat shrink sleeve over most of them.

http://www.cncengines.com/ic.html
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on August 31, 2019, 07:05:56 PM
Thanks Jason. I hadn't found them before.

Steve    :)
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on September 01, 2019, 08:40:40 PM
I have started work on the ignition system. The drawings are not very helpful and specify 'insulation' as the material so I have taken some advice and have acquired some 'Delrin'. To practice with this material, I made the centre body of the distributor which is a simple tube and I must say that it turned beautifully. I then went onto the end plate which has a boss and pinch bolt to secure the unit to the camhaft bearing.

(https://i.postimg.cc/gcRYBFpY/DSCN8506.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Rotor arm/contact breaker next. The rotor arm is a piece of brass rod pushed into the side and then partially machined away. I pressed the first one in with superglue but, not surprisingly, it hydrauliced and I couldn't push it home with the result that I couldn't make contact at the centre. I did a second one after drilling the centre hole and that was fine.

(https://i.postimg.cc/SNdbwmvp/DSCN8508.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/Z5Y4RWdR/DSCN8509.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/W4CvXSfF/DSCN8510.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Four recesses for the magnets to operate the Hall switch. I have just found that Hall switches are polarity sensitive so I need to test which way the magnets should face before pressing them in.

(https://i.postimg.cc/GmMrsbFj/DSCN8511.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Then the distributor cover. This was a fiendish bit of turning but went OK in the end.

(https://i.postimg.cc/ZqBkBpKT/DSCN8512.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/1RpQrG0X/DSCN8514.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/90tHX2XZ/DSCN8515.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/fTfMDckp/DSCN8519.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/dtwKHhnB/DSCN8520.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

A trial assembly and looking good. I have fitted the brass screw contacts with the nuts on the back. Connecting the wires without anything touching or shorting is going to be a challenge!

(https://i.postimg.cc/mgrW4Kv1/DSCN8522.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/2SXRS2Yc/DSCN8523.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

(https://i.postimg.cc/8Cq2hcjL/DSCN8525.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

A quick fit to the engine and it looks OK although some more adjustment is needed to make it all sit in the right place.

(https://i.postimg.cc/TwgZQxDF/DSCN8526.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)

Now waiting for the wire to turn up. In the meantime, I must have a think about the plug terminals, how to connect the Hall switch leads which come out of the side of the casing and also some sort of spring clip to keep the whole assembly together.

Steve  :)
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Roger B on September 02, 2019, 03:07:51 PM
Nicely done  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp: I also used Delrin for my distributor, but white as that's what I had.

Conecting up with those nuts without getting sparks jumping in the wrong place may be a problem. I would suggest tubular nuts with a thread in one end and the wire soldered in the other end. These could also be a smaller diameter than your current nuts.
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Lars on September 02, 2019, 06:08:41 PM
Steve,
I used the same approach as Mike described for my connectors. Only difference is I coiled it (slight undersize mandrel to the glowplug connector) myself as I didnt have a spring sizewise.

Even with a glowplug it is really tight and I have had some short cicuits to the pushrods occasionally..

I follow your progress with great interest, impressed that you go for the ignition straight away! My engine now starts great by hand and seems to be quite happy with the carb etc so I am leaning towards putting in the correct ignition type as well.

Have you been able to crank it and evaluate your compression?  I still think I should have more compression in my engine but it is hard to objectively substantiate that statement with the prop, but it turns too easily with one finger I think.   Oh well, it runs..

You are progressing fast to completion, looking great!
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Craig DeShong on September 06, 2019, 01:03:55 AM
Nice job on the distributor.  I'll build a project some day that will need one so it's nice to see how others approach the problem.
Title: Re: 1909 Mercedes Aero Engine
Post by: Old Bill on September 06, 2019, 09:48:15 PM
Thank you Lars. I think I might end up with some ornamental connectors and then some to run. I have gone for the spark ignition because if I had it running on glow plugs then I would never get around to making the electrical bits. Not enough willpower!

When I turn the engine, there is some compression there but it is too stiff to really tell how much. It only wants running for half an hour to free it all up but it may be too stiff to actually run. I may well take the plugs out and turn it with the battery drill for a while to run it in a bit.

The distributor is a bit of a challenge as all of the terminals are so close together that keeping the sparks in the right place may well be an issue. No doubt time will tell!

Steve  :)