Model Engine Maker

Engines => Your Own Design => Topic started by: Brian Rupnow on November 14, 2018, 05:44:19 PM

Title: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 14, 2018, 05:44:19 PM
I have spent enough hours this summer frittering away my shop hours on flame-sucker engines, Sterling engines, and clutches. My plan for the coming winter is to design and build a side-shaft hit and miss engine from bar-stock. I have built enough engines now that the only really "new" thing will be the gears that run the side-shaft, and the governor that controls the "hit and miss" action. I hope to purchase gears, bearings, etcetera from commercial dealers so that when I eventually have a running engine, other people will be able to buy the same parts from the same dealers. The engine will be water cooled, with a horizontal cylinder, 1" bore and 1 3/8" stroke. The intake will be an atmospheric valve with no cam to actuate it. Probably about 90% of this engine will be similar to parts I have machined before on the Kerzel and the "Odds and Ends" engine from Philip Duclos. I don't plan on using a Viton o-ring for a piston ring, because although they create a wonderful seal on the piston, I think they have enough residual "drag" that they prevent the engine from having very many "miss" cycles. In fact, I hope to use no rings at all, but will lap the piston into the cylinder for an air tight fit like I did on my marine engine. I hope to aim for a compression ratio of about 4.5:1. Ignition will be the Dodge points and condenser that I have used on all of my other i.c. engines. Both piston and cylinder will be grey cast iron, and the flywheels (2-of) will be 6" diameter. I am still doing research on the cam and governors, and haven't fully decided what I will use. Whatever it is will no doubt be a copy of someone else's successful design.---Brian Rupnow
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: crueby on November 14, 2018, 06:56:01 PM
Sounds like a great plan.

Just refilled the popcorn jar....
 :LickLips:
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on November 14, 2018, 07:25:32 PM
Hello Brian,

Count me in, this should make for a perfect winter project.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: gbritnell on November 14, 2018, 07:54:19 PM
Hi Brian,
The problem you'll run into is finding the helical gears. Stock Drive Products only sells 45 degree helical gears so getting a 2:1 ratio within the size constraints of the flywheel and base will be nearly impossible.
The really neat thing about helical gears is that by changing the helix angle the tooth count for a given diametral pitch changes so as on my little engine one gear has a helix angle of 30 degrees and one 60 degrees. This way to get the 2:1 ratio to run the cam the gears come out almost identical in diameter. After Chuck Fellows came up with his helical gear cutting fixture I have made quite a few helical gear sets and as I am want to do when I am learning something new I read a lot of information on helical gears and how to develop them.
They aren't really that hard to make, they just take a little practice and patience. I know that there are 2:1 gear sets available because they were sold with some casting kits so maybe you could chase down those casting providers and see where they got theirs.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 14, 2018, 08:01:51 PM
I have been in touch with Craig DeShong who is currently building a side shaft hit and miss engine from a casting kit. He tells me that his helical gears came as part of the casting kit he purchased. He did tell me that the gears were from "Martin" in the USA and gave me a part number that was on the package. I haven't really had time to chase this down with Martin. I did order a set of helical gears of Ebay, but God knows what I will actually get. I looked at the pdf about making helical gears posted by Chuck Fellows and the information posted by you, but it looks pretty daunting.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 14, 2018, 08:56:59 PM
I have checked out the two part numbers for the helical gears from "Martin" in USA that are on the engine being built by Craig DeShong. The 12 tooth helical gear is part #BS1612-2 and sells for $38 USA. The 24 tooth helical gear is part #BS1624-2 and sells for $63 USA. That comes out at $101 American money and $133 Canadian money. Ouch!!! Maybe it's a good thing that I'm rich instead of good looking.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Dave Otto on November 14, 2018, 09:08:42 PM
https://www.deboltmachine.com/products/helical-gear-set

Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 14, 2018, 09:13:07 PM
Thanks Dave--That is a much better price.---Brian
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: gbritnell on November 14, 2018, 09:24:04 PM
The gear centers would seem to be a little wide for an engine with a 1.00 bore.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: kuhncw on November 14, 2018, 11:32:45 PM
Brian, I sent you a PM.

Chuck
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 14, 2018, 11:47:31 PM
Chuck--I answered you, but when I tried to send it the whole damn thing disappeared.  I am dickering with a Canadian company right now to supply the gears, but I'm not sure of the outcome yet. Thanks for letting me know.---Brian
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: kuhncw on November 14, 2018, 11:51:17 PM
Ok Brian,

No problem.  Let me know if interested at some point.

Chuck
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 15, 2018, 01:31:57 AM
Chuck--I just sent you a private message.---Brian
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 15, 2018, 01:42:52 PM
And as it unwinds--the part numbers I got from Craig DeShong are for straight tooth bevel gears, not helical gears. I think he may have mistakenly given me part numbers for the governor gears on his engine, not the helical gears. The prices I gave in an earlier post were for straight tooth bevel gears, not helical gears.--I will still probably have to buy those gears, as I do intend to have a governor on the new engine I design. DeBolt has a set of helical gears with the right ratio and a reasonable size, but I can't reach anybody at DeBolt.--I sent DeBolt 3 emails yesterday and they were all answered with an email from Paul at DeBolt with no message nor attachment. I called them this morning and left a message, but I can't do much now until I hear back from them. I don't even want to start the design of the engine till I get these gears figured out.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 15, 2018, 02:28:56 PM
We're good!!! I just got a phone call from Paul Debolt at Debolt Machine and he is still in business and plans on staying in business. I ordered the helical gears from him, and I also ordered the "Martin" straight tooth bevel gears that will run the governor from the Canadian company I was dealing with. I won't do anymore design work until I have these gears in my hands. Chuck--I'm sorry about all the back and forth we've been doing. I won't be buying your gears after all, but I do appreciate that you made the offer to sell them to me.--Brian
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 15, 2018, 04:13:30 PM
I bought the two bevel gears because I like the style of governor used on the Bob Herder side shaft engine currently being built by Craig DeShong. I want to marry that style of governor to the circular cam disc as used on the Silver Angel engine. This will let my cylinder head be much closer to a "conventional" style of cylinder head rather than having to assemble two piece valves inside the cylinder head as Craig has done. I haven't put a lot of thought into just how I will do that yet, but I think it will be possible.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/7403/QZP282.jpg)
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/3081/KusccA.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Jasonb on November 15, 2018, 05:28:28 PM
Brian, you missed George's comment that the "lobe" of the can should be radial to the axis not straight across. If you imagine that grinding stone on the other forum doing the cutting while the cam is rotated horizontally it won't give the cut you have shown. You also look to have a very short duration.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Hit%20n%20Miss/Half%20scale%20Domestic%20Stovepipe/PICT0351.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 15, 2018, 07:12:10 PM
Jason--that cam I modeled was just a "show and tell" so people would know what I was talking about. I agree totally with what you and George are saying.---Brian
(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/5430/GXXp7m.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 16, 2018, 12:08:18 AM
I am going to try and use a CM10 sparkplug on this engine because they are available at any autoparts store. Anything smaller is generally more expensive and can only be ordered from specialty suppliers. With a 1" cylinder, I'm sure I can make it fit, because I have three or four other 1" bore engines, and there is just enough room in the cylinder head for two 3/8" diameter valve heads and the 10 mm sparkplug.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Craig DeShong on November 16, 2018, 01:23:24 PM
Just caught up with  his post Brian, looks interesting.  I'll be following  :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 16, 2018, 04:42:06 PM
After watching many more videos of full size "Domestic Stovepipe" engines, thigs are beginning to come clearer. The Domestic Stovepipe engines have a circular disc cam, similar to the cam on the Silver Angel. It has a really nice governor set-up which rides on one flywheel and connects to the exhaust valve lockout lever with a long pushrod. The beauty of this style of governor is that you don't have to shell out any cash for miter gears to run the governor shaft. On the Bob Herder hit and miss engine like Craig DeShong is building, the sideshaft, running at 1/2 of the crankshaft speed has a conventional shaped cam to run the exhaust valve. The problem with that is that the pivot point of the rocker arm is rotated 90 degrees from "normal", which leads to a really strange cylinder head into which the valves must be assembled in pieces.---and--It costs an extra hundred dollars for bevel bears to run the governor shaft.  However--It looks really neat, with the exposed governor setting up on the side of the engine.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 16, 2018, 06:40:00 PM
So without worrying about scale too much, we want a model of the Bob Herder hit and miss governor pivoting an exhaust valve lockout mechanism similar to that used on the Domestic Stovepipe engine. This will do it. That green colored link will have to have a spherical rod end on the right hand end to let things move without binding.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/9830/OmELGD.jpg)
(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/6696/sFd57k.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Admiral_dk on November 16, 2018, 08:29:23 PM
Hello Brian

The 3D "pictures" gives a very informative illustration of the workings of the governor  :ThumbsUp:

I'm as usually following your builds and this is no exception  :cheers:  :popcorn:

Per
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 16, 2018, 09:44:09 PM
Thanks Per--I hope this will be a good build.---Brian
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 17, 2018, 05:19:54 PM
This is an interesting model. I have remodelled the sideshaft governor to the correct size, and just for the heck of it positioned it in the approximate place it would go on the "Odds and Ends" hit and miss engine. The "odds and ends" engine has a 1" bore and 1 3/8" stroke, same as the sideshaft engine I will be designing. The side-shaft engine flywheels will be 6" diameter instead of the 5" on the Odds and ends engine, but all in all its fairly close to the same size. The governor doesn't "overwhelm" the engine visually.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/9423/S3e72R.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 17, 2018, 08:42:54 PM
Since I don't have my gears yet, the only part of the engine available to work on is the governor, which I now have modelled to scale. Nice rotary table work doing the very top part. I'm having a devil of a time to get a good picture. With shop lights off, its too dark, but not dark enough for the flash to work. With both spotlights focused on the part it all washes out. This is the third try with my camera.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/7195/nJRgNJ.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: crueby on November 17, 2018, 09:55:09 PM
I have same problem with my lights, usually will aim the spots a little to the side of the part to dim things, or hold up a piece of white paper as a diffuser.




 :popcorn:
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 18, 2018, 03:04:19 PM
This morning I made up a pair of filing buttons. If you have heard of filing buttons and weren't sure what they are---I have to file a nice radius on both ends of the governor top. If it was a big piece, I would free-hand it on my big stationary belt sander. Being such a small piece, I wouldn't be able to do that and have it come out looking right. So--filing buttons are made up from 01 steel, having the correct outer diameter and center hole and flame hardened. They are assembled as you see in the picture with a piece of the correct diameter shaft (.093" in this case.) Now when I file the radii on the aluminum governor cap, the hardened filing buttons will stop me from cutting too deep with my file and ending up with wonky looking radii on the aluminum part.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/1008/xpLE94.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 18, 2018, 10:33:46 PM
The brass governor parts are very small, way smaller than my comfort level. I chose to make my governor weights from pieces that are machined, then silver soldered together. This of course required me to make a "one time use" welding fixture to position the parts for silver soldering. After the soldering is done, I may have to cut it apart to free the components, that is why it is a "one time use' jig. The solid brass ring will be cut into four pieces, two of which are silver soldered  to the "pivot ears" and two which will become scrap.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/4553/y5JwRX.jpg)
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/3718/lQu2Xs.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: crueby on November 18, 2018, 11:06:04 PM
I always, well when I remember, use some Nicrobraze to keep parts from sticking to jigs when silver soldering, works well and cleans off in pickle.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: zeeprogrammer on November 19, 2018, 12:51:57 AM
I've been following along Brian. Always something to learn.

I've never heard of Nicrobraze. I'll have to look that up.

Regarding photos...sometimes I use the contrast and brightness controls in a photo tool to help lighten up or bring out features.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 19, 2018, 12:59:44 AM
I've never heard of that. I will ask my welding gas supplier about it. Thanks.---Brian
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: crueby on November 19, 2018, 02:09:41 AM
I've never heard of that. I will ask my welding gas supplier about it. Thanks.---Brian
There are a couple of versions, I am using the Nicrobraze 'Green', which comes in a pen type applicator, like the old car touchup paints. I bought it online. Other people have used whiteout for the same purpose, but it has a tendancy to turn very hard and glassy, and be hard to get off again after heating. The Nicrobraze comes off easily. Does not take a lot, just paint a little on the surfaces you want to keep the solder off, let dry, and solder away.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Art K on November 19, 2018, 03:25:27 AM
That sounds like a great idea. I will have to keep that in mind when I am doing a similar project.
Art
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: gerritv on November 19, 2018, 04:03:02 AM
Brian, several of my cameras, even the cell phone, have a Force Flash setting that comes in handy for those cases where the camera will not obey your needs. I use Adobe Lightroom for editing but prefer not to do that for what are essentially snap shots.

Gerrit
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Jasonb on November 19, 2018, 07:15:10 AM
Tipp-ex correction fluid does the same job and stops parts soldering together, use the solvent based one.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 19, 2018, 02:26:14 PM
As I suspected, the welding fixture had to be cut away after the silver soldering was completed. This was not really a matter of the solder sticking to the aluminum welding fixture. It's just that the brass pieces were a very close tolerance fit into the aluminum fixture. When I make an aluminum fixture like that, about half the time parts of the aluminum melt while the silver solder is being applied. It doesn't bond to the brass, but it manages to mechanically lock to the brass weldment. It cut away very cleanly and the soldered joints came out looking very good.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/8405/fEBcGf.jpg)
(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/3506/DaEXzB.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 19, 2018, 05:58:02 PM
Not quite there yet, but getting darned close. Both of my bevel gears came in, still waiting for helical gears. I have a bunch of "real" work calling me so probably won't post anymore of this today.---Brian
(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/4302/0ueiQP.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Craig DeShong on November 19, 2018, 11:03:18 PM
Looking good Brian.  It's going to interesting to see this engine materialize; especially after just finishing the Myers that has versions of the same components.
 :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 19, 2018, 11:59:03 PM
Craig--I'm not entirely happy with the governor.  The maximum travel I can get on the sliding collars is about 0.090". I have more "fettling" to do before I conclude whether this design is going to work for me or not. I only have a couple of small things to tidy up and a spring to buy to finish the governor, so I should know this week if I can make this work for me or not.---Brian
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: zeeprogrammer on November 20, 2018, 12:56:15 AM
so I should know this week if I can make this work for me or not.---Brian

We already do know.  ;D
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 20, 2018, 01:16:18 AM
Zee--I have had success with larger flyball type governors, but this one is surprisingly small. The two brass cams are way below my comfort level sizewise. Links and levers I'm comfortable with, but this is kind of a different horse. I have to build a "limiter" somewhere in this mechanism, because if the "cams" swing out beyond 45 degrees, they lock up and can't get back.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Roger B on November 20, 2018, 09:52:01 AM
I'm following along  :wine1: I'll be intersted to see how the governor works out  :)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Jasonb on November 20, 2018, 10:03:09 AM
how much total movement are you needing Brian? you should be able to gain more movement from the lengths of the pick part and  L shaped arm by adjusting the lengths of each relative to their pivots. At the end of the day you probably only need 1/8" movement of the latch, maybe less.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 20, 2018, 03:43:25 PM
Maybe so Jason.--still playing with models of it.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/420/zcwJVi.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 20, 2018, 09:59:39 PM
My helical gears from Debolt showed up in the mail today, and I am very impressed. They look like good quality gears. The one which has an extended hub on one side will get a couple of set screws drilled and tapped thru the extended hub to hold it to the camshaft. I'm not exactly sure how to attach the other gear to the crankshaft at this point. I also stopped by my metal supplier guy today and picked up two 1" long cuts from a hotrolled 6" diameter mild steel bar for $25.00. In the background of the helical gears you can see the two 1/2" ball bearings that will support the crankshaft. The seals will be removed and the grease washed out, then a bit of light oil applied to them.                                      (https://imageshack.com/a/img924/8181/KLp4m1.jpg)
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/6713/dIA3DK.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 20, 2018, 11:58:56 PM
A plan is slowly working it's way thru my head---
(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/8946/ioC2Aj.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 22, 2018, 12:14:06 AM
Well, it can't really be this easy but here it is with one flywheel hidden. 1" bore and 1 3/8" stroke with 6" diameter flywheels. The devil is in the details, and I haven't even thought too much about the cylinder head and cam yet, but I think it's kind of cute.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/8933/4Oecwz.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: crueby on November 22, 2018, 12:31:07 AM
Brian, is there a reason to use the helical gears on the crank and bevel gears at the other end? Do they behave differently, or is it just preference?


 :popcorn:
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 22, 2018, 01:08:00 AM
Chris, I don't have a good answer for that. The only thing I think it may be, is that the helical gears have a lot more contact surface than a set of bevel gears. Theoretically, the helical gears should be capable of taking more stress than the bevel gears.---Brian
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: asm109 on November 22, 2018, 04:45:35 AM
Actually, crossed helical gears have point contact. Used that way they have almost no load capacity.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Jasonb on November 22, 2018, 07:22:22 AM
Brian, will you cut out the frame under the bearing and possibly the bearing where the purple helical gear is clashing with the frame or move the shaft outwards?

You may also be able to de-clutter the other end by cutting the cam into the boss of the large bevel gear
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Jo on November 22, 2018, 07:28:21 AM
Brian, is there a reason to use the helical gears on the crank and bevel gears at the other end? Do they behave differently, or is it just preference?

With Cross helical gears it is possible to mount the two 90 degree shafts closer together than bevel gears would allow. Yes Cross Helical gears have point contact so they have no more surface contact (=friction) than a standard set of spur gears.

Jo
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Jasonb on November 22, 2018, 08:21:41 AM
Depends what you call closer together, Brian could have got his side shaft on the same ctr height as the crankshaft if he had used the bevel gears at that end and not a lot if any further out. Though had he sized the helical gears to suit his engine then they would not be so big which would bring the shafts closer together.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Craig DeShong on November 22, 2018, 02:00:35 PM
Craig--I'm not entirely happy with the governor.  The maximum travel I can get on the sliding collars is about 0.090". I have more "fettling" to do before I conclude whether this design is going to work for me or not. I only have a couple of small things to tidy up and a spring to buy to finish the governor, so I should know this week if I can make this work for me or not.---Brian

Brian- very little travel on the Myers engine also, I would venture to guess less than the .09 you have.  The lever that pivots out to lock the exhaust valve is long, and therefore the movement at the end of the lever multiples the collar travel.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 22, 2018, 03:28:10 PM
Jason--I have put cut-outs in the side of the part which is the water jacket to clear the large bevel gear. That cut out is below the area which holds water. I will also cut a clearance in the sideplate for the camshaft helical gear---Brian
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 22, 2018, 07:24:41 PM
So, today we got a bit more serious about just how we were going to support the sideshaft, and ended up with two bolt on brackets complete with oilite bronze bushings. Yes, we had to carve a bit out of the side of the waterjacket to give clearance for the flyweights of the governor when they were spinning around. We also carved a bit out of the waterjacket and the sideplate a bit farther down to clear the largest bevel gear. A fancy top was whittled out for the waterjacket, and the tops of those swishy looking bearing caps were modified to something I like better. Everything fits so far. I had to move the sideshaft out away from the centerline of the engine to get the clearances I required. Thats alright though, because the helical crankshaft gear doesn't have to have the helical camshaft gear riding exactly in the center. It can move about 0.100" from center and still have all the teeth engage. The narrow vertical portion of the sideplates below the waterjacket seemed to be a bit skinny, so it got about 5/8" taller and cutout in the waterjacket part got 5/8" taller to accommodate it. I don't yet know just how I am going to secure the cast iron cylinder in the waterjacket, but will probably put a "head" on the end farthest from the crankshaft and a ring of counterbored shcs. to secure the cylinder.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/6976/GHXQz1.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 22, 2018, 09:16:00 PM
I'm getting right down to where the bear shat in the buckwheat now. I was originally going to leave the flywheel webs solid, but I didn't like the look, so added some holes. I tried a 1" diameter hole but it didn't look right, so I ended up with 1 1/4" diameter holes. That's all well and good on the computer screen, but the largest drill and end mill I have are only 1" diameter. I rooted thru all of my different cylinder head models, and ended up stealing the cylinder head, head gasket, valve cages, valves, valve springs, and valve retainers from the Rockerblock engine to use on this hit and miss engine. The cylinder head model got reworked a bit, but not a lot. I have to have all of the cylinder head stuff in place before I can start to think too much about the exhaust valve lockout mechanism.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/8982/Z7xN07.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on November 22, 2018, 10:03:30 PM
Hello Brian,

I really like this new creation of yours and it should turn out to be a nice looking engine.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 22, 2018, 10:21:54 PM
Thanks Thomas--I'm glad you are enjoying the build. So far I've only done the easy stuff. The exhaust valve lockout is going to be interesting.---Brian
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 23, 2018, 01:59:07 AM
I've been kind of expecting that this would happen. The length of the valve stem (which has to be this long to allow for a spring and spring retainer) dictates where the rocker arm and pivot should go. The "cam follower bearing" is a bearing I happened to have already, which measures 0.864" diameter. The diameter of the cam follower bearing dictates where the rotary cam has to be. As a consequence of this, the governor will have to move to the left as far as I can take it.--I'll do that tomorrow.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/450/TZWxc7.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: gbritnell on November 23, 2018, 02:18:56 AM
Brian,
I'm curious! How does the governor interact with the exhaust valve? Will there be some sort of linkage and levers going up to the rocker arm?
The reason helical gears are used to drive the camshaft is because by using gears with a different helix angle you can get their diameters almost the same and still have a 2:1 ratio. If you used bevel gears you would first need to get one large enough to fit onto the crankshaft and then the cam gear needing to be twice as large would put the camshaft spacing way out from the crankcase.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Jasonb on November 23, 2018, 07:32:07 AM
That's going to be a long linkage to get from governor to rocker arm, can you not move the whole governor rearwards, may even be able to have the large bevel gear past the back of the hopper so you don't need to cut clearance notches.

Regarding the liner, why not make it like the engine you bassed on the Bobcat/Jaguar with just a small lip that fits into a recess and then the head holds it in place. This is how most of the casting kit H&M engines are done.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 23, 2018, 01:13:54 PM
Thanks for your posts guys. As I said in my last post, I kind of expected this would happen. I have to move the governor to the extreme left side limits of the water jacket now so I can see what form the linkage will take.---Brian
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Jasonb on November 23, 2018, 02:51:47 PM
You could also save some length by ditching the bearing, a 1/2" dia steel roller will do as the cam follower.

Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 23, 2018, 06:32:48 PM
It has been a very interesting morning, trying to find room for the governor up near the head of the engine.--And it wasn't until I had spent 2 hours moving it up there that I realized the governor works in reverse to what I needed.--So, the governor pivot was moved to the other side of the stem post centerline. This allows the governor to work the way I needed it to. I have attached two pictures--One shows the governor engaged and locking out the exhaust valve by preventing the rocker arm from rocking to close the exhaust valve. The other picture shows the governor disengaged, which allows the rocker arm to rock normally and open and close the exhaust valve.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/7426/gcGRYW.jpg)
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/1398/u4TV4B.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Jasonb on November 23, 2018, 06:54:28 PM
You might find that round pin does not hold, usual to have a hardened steel plate with an angled notch for better location and matching angled end to the lever. Plate is slotted for fine adjustment

(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Hit%20n%20Miss/Half%20scale%20Domestic%20Stovepipe/DSC05408.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 23, 2018, 07:19:23 PM
Thank you Jason. Any knowledge is good knowledge this early in the game.---Brian
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 25, 2018, 09:43:15 PM
I haven't given up nor ran away. There is an amazing amount of farting around, making small bits, and fitting to this governor. I only have a couple of small spacers yet to make, and the "bump" which gets silver soldered to the brass part in the foreground, for the governor to push on when engaged. Everything else on the entire engine is just repeats of work I have done before, but I want to assemble and test run the governor first.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/3849/8sR7ew.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 27, 2018, 06:50:04 PM
Here's a new wrinkle on this type of governor. Obviously you need a spring like the yellow one to move the governor weights and associated bits back into the "not engaged" position when the engine slows down and the governor weights are no longer swung out away from the stempost by centrifugal force. However, I've had to add an extra threaded post and a couple of nuts to prevent the governor from moving too far into the engaged position. If the governor weights fly out at any more than a 40 degree angle, they get jammed there and won't come back into the correct position.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/6154/L5GsfY.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Jasonb on November 27, 2018, 06:59:42 PM
Brian, could you not just have fitted a small hex nut or threaded sleeve to go on the red rod that fitted inside the spring to act as a stop. kill two birds with one stone rather than over engineer it.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 27, 2018, 09:26:20 PM
Jason--I thought of that, but look at the size of the yellow standard hex nuts on that red shaft. Even though I could have made smaller nuts that would fit inside the spring, they would be difficult to get at to adjust.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 30, 2018, 01:21:38 AM
If you remember, when I was first looking at this project I purchased a set of 2:1 ratio helical gears off Ebay. The cost was under $12 US funds, so I ordered them, figuring "What do I have to lose?". I went ahead and bought  a different set of helical gears from DeBolt for $75 US and they arrived promptly and they were fine. I've been deluged by a spate of "real work" to the point where I haven't been able to do any work on this new engine recently. Today my Ebay gears came in the mail, and I'm quite impressed. The Ebay gears are in the foreground, with the gears from DeBolt setting closer to the partly finished governor.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1M-30T-15T-Metal-Helical-Wheel-Gear-90-Pairing-Bevel-Gearing-Set-Kit-Ratio-2-1-/262691511022 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/1M-30T-15T-Metal-Helical-Wheel-Gear-90-Pairing-Bevel-Gearing-Set-Kit-Ratio-2-1-/262691511022)
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/4757/ws2ffY.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 01, 2018, 06:22:46 PM
Yesterday afternoon and this morning, I've finally found enough time to finish this governor. I must admit, I had serious doubts about this one working. However, Craig DeShong just completed a hit and miss engine that was bought as a casting kit, using the same design (I copied his) and he got stellar results. His engine runs beautifully. I haven't done anything yet on the actual engine, because I've built as number of previous internal combustion engines, and there will be nothing really "new" about this one----Except the governor.
aIeUHzczbYk(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/953/hCpCOq.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on December 01, 2018, 06:37:15 PM
Hello Brian,

Seems to operate very smoothly.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Admiral_dk on December 01, 2018, 06:52:19 PM
Looks very much like success so far to me  :ThumbsUp:

 :cheers:   :popcorn:
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 02, 2018, 01:25:57 PM
This is one of my least favorite jobs when building an engine. I have yet to find a "good" way to trepan the side of a flywheel. It isn't too horrible when using an aluminum center with a steel outer rim, but when you make the entire one piece flywheel from a single piece of steel, this job makes me crazy. There is simply no good way to go about it. I have one side of this flywheel done, except for a clean up cut. The carbide tools cut really well, but leave a rather ugly finish. the HSS tools leave a lovely finish but dull very quickly.  When I do the far side of this flywheel, I will make a series of plunge cuts near the center hub (a total of 3/8" deep) and try using a brazed carbide turning tool to make successive cuts from the center out towards the rim.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/1457/H5oiQF.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: crueby on December 02, 2018, 03:26:11 PM
I've done it by swapping back and forth between right and left hand turning tools - on smaller wheels a center cut one too - lots of stopping/starting, ramping in the cuts and swapping tools. My smaller lathe doesnt handle trepanning cuts well.

End result is looking good though!
 :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: gbritnell on December 02, 2018, 04:13:13 PM
Brian,
There is no easy way to do it on a lathe but there is a quite easy way to do it. Set it up on a rotary table,
Drill a pilot hole, plunge in with an end mill leaving stock for finish turning, then rough out using the rotary table. It's just like milling!
gbritnell
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 02, 2018, 04:55:44 PM
So there we are!! One done and one to go. When I machined the second side, I found it to be easier if I took about 6 plunge cuts to full depth (3/8") nearest to the hub with a .093" wide parting blade HSS with the heel relieved quite a lot so it wouldn't rub. At that point I had a wide enough slot to get the end of a brazed carbide boring bar in there, and make repeated passes 0.010" depth of cut from the slot out towards the rim. This took a heck of a lot of cuts, but was easier to control. I will use that same method when I do the second flywheel.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/7476/thTeWM.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 02, 2018, 04:58:41 PM
George--I did think of that, but my rotary table is smaller in diameter than the steel blanks, and I have a 3 jaw chuck mounted on it, that is so perfectly centered that I won't take it off.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 04, 2018, 02:04:26 AM
And now I have two of them!! My poor little shop looks like swarf mountain, but I'm pleased with the way these turned out.  I still need to broach keyways, add set screws, and put in the 1 1/4" holes in the webs, but the lathe work is done. I'm going to completely finish these guys before I start on any of the other parts, but it's all progress.---Brian
(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/5898/xbbG12.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: crueby on December 04, 2018, 02:09:10 AM
Nice!
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Kim on December 04, 2018, 05:06:03 AM
Brian,
Those pucks could be train wheels!  All you need to do is cut the flange in them and you're all set! :)
(I'm seeing train wheels in my sleep right now  :Lol:)

Nice looking fly wheels, Brian.
Kim
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Craig DeShong on December 04, 2018, 06:55:15 PM
Yesterday afternoon and this morning, I've finally found enough time to finish this governor. I must admit, I had serious doubts about this one working. However, Craig DeShong just completed a hit and miss engine that was bought as a casting kit, using the same design (I copied his) and he got stellar results. His engine runs beautifully. I haven't done anything yet on the actual engine, because I've built as number of previous internal combustion engines, and there will be nothing really "new" about this one----Except the governor.
aIeUHzczbYk(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/953/hCpCOq.jpg)

Nicely done Brian.  I believe you have a functional governor!
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 04, 2018, 09:44:40 PM
Even with having to use the boring head to end up with 1 1/4" holes in the flywheel web, it wasn't that bad.  The web is 1/4" thick, so I went around once using the DRO and a 3/8" dia. countersink. Then stepped right up to a full 1" drill, the biggest I have, and went around once with that. Then I put in the boring head and set it to bore a 1.150" dia. hole and went around once, then opened it out to bore a full 1 1/4" hole and went around one more time. It didn't take nearly as long as I thought it would. The keyways are broached in each flywheel and the set screw holes are tapped.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/892/s3Bi0z.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 05, 2018, 09:32:09 PM
Today I finished up both flywheels. These larger, heavier flywheels are going to demand something heartier than a 3/8" crankshaft. While rummaging through one of my boxes of "things"  I found a pair of lovely 1/2" inside diameter ball bearings, so that is what I will use, and make the crankshaft 1/2" diameter. I was lucky enough to find that a piece of 1.5" diameter stock is large enough to turn the crankshaft from solid, so I went to my favourite metal supplier today and picked up a piece of 1144 stressproof steel. Turning crankshafts from solid is not my favourite thing to do, but I have done it before successfully, so hopefully this will go well.---Brian
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 06, 2018, 04:14:05 PM
I'm having a very "cranky" morning. You can only buy 1144 stress-proof steel in rounds. It doesn't come in flatbar.-So--I have the length of round stock clamped down and am flattening one side of it. I didn't want to cut the side off in the bandsaw, because my bandsaw has no fence. I have to take off 0.5" of material, and am taking 0.015" depth of cut at 500 rpm. I have taken 0.300" off in theis picture, and have 0.200 left to go. This is one of the few times I think about having a powered axis in the X plane. Once I get this side finished, I was going to flip the part over and do the other side in the mill, but after all the cranking I've been doing, I think I will make up a fixture and bandsaw most of the other side away.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/926/O0Bi23.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 06, 2018, 08:55:51 PM
HAH!!! Old age and treachery and a bandsaw wins again. My bandsaw is slower than the second coming, but is still faster than milling all that material away. Now back to the milling machine for the final dressing.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/751/7c6DsO.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 08, 2018, 05:22:51 PM
So here we are, with the 1 5/8" round of 1144 stress proof flattened on both sides and countersink holes drilled in each end for lathe centers. I have a rather sketchy machinists clamp with a bolt tapped into it for a drive dog, and the con rod journal turned to 0.502" diameter. Next step will be to glue a spacer into the gap, saw away as much waste material as  I can, then turn the other diameters.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/1415/MrSAtK.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 08, 2018, 06:45:31 PM
This is the point at which you really, really want to be sure what part stays and what part gets sawn off and discarded. You will also see the spacer glued into the gap that was opened in the previous step.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/7682/zn2fxm.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: crueby on December 08, 2018, 07:12:22 PM
Very nice so far!  I have never used the stressproof steel - how is it to machine? Are there different alloys?
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: fumopuc on December 08, 2018, 07:42:36 PM
Hi Chris, 1144 or here in Europe, ETG 100 is really easy to machine. The opposed piston twin crank shafts are also made of ETG 100.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: crueby on December 08, 2018, 08:47:43 PM
Hi Chris, 1144 or here in Europe, ETG 100 is really easy to machine. The opposed piston twin crank shafts are also made of ETG 100.
Thanks Achim!
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 08, 2018, 10:16:12 PM
It's been a long day, but a worthy one. The one piece crankshaft turned out fine. I still have to trim the ends to get rid of the counterbores, and put the keyways in, but that will be for tomorrow. Chris--The 1144 is a nice steel to machine, and it is very stable. Unlike cold rolled steel, it doesn't try to turn into a pretzel while you are machining it.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/3784/O54F77.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: crueby on December 08, 2018, 10:31:26 PM
That turned out great!!


 :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: b.lindsey on December 08, 2018, 10:55:00 PM
Nice days work Brian!! You have to be pleased with that.

Bill
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 09, 2018, 01:03:59 AM
I am pleased. The first time I made a one piece crankshaft I remember thinking what a tough job it was. Now I find that like many things, it isn't really that much of a big deal----after you've made the first five or six.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: zeeprogrammer on December 09, 2018, 02:49:58 PM
 :ThumbsUp: Looks really sharp!

Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 09, 2018, 03:05:00 PM
Thanks guys---It's nice to know someone's looking. This morning I trimmed the crankshaft to length, and cut the keyways in both ends of it. I'm just playing a bit now on the CAD. This thing is going to need a gas tank, and although I have always mounted my tanks on the outside of my engines, I have a lot of room available between the engine sideplates. I'm thinking of making up a tank that fits between the sideplates, with one end butting up against the "tower" that holds the cylinder and the cooling water and the other end hanging out the open end with a filler cap on it. The tank outlet would run right thru the bottom of the "tower" and come out the opposite end where it would hook to a line running up to the carburetor. I think it gives the engine a much cleaner look with the gas tank there instead of mounted on the side.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/2290/WJdM4q.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: 10KPete on December 09, 2018, 04:52:10 PM
  :ThumbsUp:

 :popcorn:

Pete
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Craig DeShong on December 09, 2018, 06:55:59 PM
Nice Brian, you're well on your way.  LOVE those one piece crankshafts.  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 10, 2018, 11:16:44 PM
I had "real work" today, so nothing done on the engine. I did however order enough aluminum to make the base, both side plates, and the "tower" which holds the cylinder and is the water reservoir. This cost about $75 Canadian. I will pick it up tomorrow. All that leaves outstanding is material for the cast iron cylinder and piston, and I may go to a bronze rod--not sure about that yet. I'm having ongoing issues with my back from standing at the machines all day, so a day of "real work" not only makes me a bit of money, but means I get to set in my computer chair all day and not have an aching back at the end of the day.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Roger B on December 11, 2018, 10:30:40 AM
Nice job on the crankshaft  :praise2: Those are big flywheels even with the 1/2" shaft.

If I was using a toolmakers clamp as a drive dog I would probably add a couple of cable ties as a back up just in case it came loose  ::)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 13, 2018, 12:18:07 AM
I've been way to busy with real work (everybody is spending their budget money before the year turns over) to do much hobby machining. I did however, squeeze an hour out tonight to modify the helical gear set. The camshaft gear comes in at 0.370" diameter bore, so needed to be reamed to .375. The crankshaft gear comes in way oversize in the bore, so it had to have a steel bushing made and loctited in place to fit my 1/2" crankshaft. There was nowhere to put set screws in it, so I turned 3/16" of tooth off one side and put in two #6 set screws and a keyway. In this picture I had them both up and running in my milling machine, and they mesh just fine. I probably won't get much free time between now and Christmas, but I will post any further work that gets done on the engine.---Brian
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/8612/ZTDP3D.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: 10KPete on December 13, 2018, 02:15:59 AM
Interesting! Now it looks more like a worm gear?

 :popcorn:

Pete
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Art K on December 13, 2018, 03:02:10 AM
Brian,
Been busy the last week or so and am just getting caught up on your build. In the better late than never category. When I did the flywheel on VAL I used a lath tool with a fairly sharp angle and ran the spindle forward for the hub. Then reverse on the back side, indicator on the carriage kept the cut even.
Art
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 15, 2018, 05:09:39 PM
I've managed to find enough time in the evenings and this morning to whittle out a pair of sideplates and bearing caps. There is some fettling and sanding yet required, but it is progress. That piece they are resting on is destined to become the base.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/9504/GaqfUD.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 16, 2018, 12:37:10 AM
I have the baseplate up on the mill now, and before I start putting holes in it, I am running that ornamental fillet around the four sides. That fillet makes a baseplate very pretty, but putting the fillet in is not one of the more fun aspects of machining. I have a 5/8" ball nose endmill, and it clunks and thumps like crazy. It takes numerous passes, and even after your finished machining the part, it still requires a fair bit of sanding with 200 grit paper wrapped around a dowel to get all of the wavy lines out of the fillet. It actually machines a lot better with "climb" milling  than it does with conventional milling.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/9901/AY0AIO.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 16, 2018, 04:55:30 PM
OH MY!!!!    Everything fits, everything goes round and round and up and down. All the parts I've made are together for the first time, and I'm stoked. The helical gears mesh properly. Next thing on the build list will probably be the tower that holds the cylinder and becomes the water jacket.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/8040/7tarDm.jpg)
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/6118/3zXUjM.jpg)
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/2817/HDcQ9V.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Admiral_dk on December 16, 2018, 06:37:34 PM
Fine progress Brian - coming along nicely.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: crueby on December 16, 2018, 07:42:25 PM
 :cartwheel:
 :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Art K on December 16, 2018, 10:59:59 PM
Brian,
Looking good, even starting to look like an engine.
Art
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 17, 2018, 12:26:41 AM
After an intense afternoon of Christmas shopping with good wife, I escaped to the shop and made the support block (with bronze bushing) for the side-shaft. I have hidden the near side flywheel so you can see the part I'm talking about, colored grey, right next to the pink helical gear.Something was rotten in Denmark, because when I tightened the bolts which held it in place, nothing would turn. Ah Poop!!! Some detective work showed that the backing of the support was about .006" short. I have an old ratty set of feeler gauges, and since I didn't want to remake the part, my .006" feeler gauged sacrificed it's life as a shim under the block. Now everything turns freely. I am absolutely fascinated by this engine. Some engines I build, and they work, and I'm pleased. Other engines like this one grab my heart and give it a squeeze. Probably it's silly to be so taken with a collection of steel, aluminum and brass parts, but it always surprises me and makes me feel great when it happens.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/2895/GbbSNw.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: gbritnell on December 17, 2018, 12:35:13 AM
Really nice work Brian, both concept and build.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 17, 2018, 01:39:34 AM
Hi George--Thanks for looking in. I'm not certain that my concept is going to work, and there is really no way of knowing until I build it. One thing about building something like this, if the first concept doesn't work, there are an infinite number of ways to reconfigure it until it does work.---Brian
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 17, 2018, 02:05:49 AM
And if you wondered what was lurking under the far side flywheel, well here it is. My "standard" set of Chrysler ignition points, setting on a mounting plate with a handle that lets me advance or retard the timing while I'm setting up the engine to run. It's a little more work to do it this way, and once the timing is set, it never gets adjusted again. I have found that it is a great help when first setting up an engine to run at the best idle, to be able to adjust the timing while the engine is actually running.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/2444/pYxmlo.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: 10KPete on December 17, 2018, 02:25:41 AM
 :praise2: :ThumbsUp:

 :popcorn:

Pete
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 17, 2018, 06:40:04 PM
I am just in the initial stages of marking out cut lines on the piece of 2 1/2" square piece of aluminum which will become my cooling tower. Since the bore will be somewhat complicated by being larger internally than at the outside ends, it can't be done with a conventional boring head. So--I dragged the model over onto my lathe faceplate. this immediately shows me two things. #1--the part will fit okay for turning, as it doesn't stick out beyond the edges of the faceplate. #2---I don't want to trim it to length until after I have bored it. By leaving it full length, I can put a bolt thru the top (above what is shown as the open end of the water reservoir) to bolt it to the faceplate, then trim it to length after it has been bored.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/3788/vIDu7l.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 17, 2018, 11:44:56 PM
After what seemed like an awful lot of bandsawing and milling, we have the part which becomes the cylinder mount and water reservoir. It fits very well where I intended it to. You can see a line scribed about 3/4" down from the top which is actually the height that it will end up at. For now I will leave that 3/4" on and drill a hole thru it to use as a mount for that end when I attach it to the faceplate of my lathe. There will be a hole thru the other end for the gas-line from my tank to run thru. It will do for the bolted connection at the other end when I attach it to the faceplate.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/293/476Q97.jpg)
(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/605/rQn0ds.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on December 18, 2018, 12:02:21 AM
Hello Brian,

That is a chunk of aluminum, but the engine is coming together and looking really good.

Have a great holiday,
Thomas
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 18, 2018, 10:17:48 PM
Well, the good news is that out of 10 tapped holes in the water reservoir, all of them lined up with the holes in the sideplates and governor block, and all the bolts went in with no fuss. That always kind of surprises me and makes me feel good. I finished up the design work that was going to keep me busy until Christmas, so should be able to get a bit more done on the engine now. I think probably tomorrow I will mount the water reservoir/cylinder mount on either the faceplate (or maybe the 4 jaw) on my lathe and put the cylinder hole in it.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Craig DeShong on December 19, 2018, 12:00:58 AM
You've been going like gangbusters  :ThumbsUp:

Looks GREAT  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 19, 2018, 12:04:06 AM
The other good thing is that the flyweights on the governor don't fly out far enough to smack the corner of the reservoir. The CAD showed that they would miss it, but not by very much. I wasn't terribly concerned, because if they had I can cut some material away from that corner without breaking through to the inside of the reservoir. Regardless of what the CAD shows me, I like to actually see the parts made in metal and assembled to confirm it.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/5610/o1chqb.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 19, 2018, 12:47:35 PM
Rather than mess around with critical press fits between the cylinder and the water reservoir to prevent leaks, I am going to o-ring the water reservoir same as I did on the Rockerblock engine. This demands only a "close sliding fit" between the cylinder and the water reservoir, and with a 1/16" o-ring and some silicone applied during assembly, it seals very well and doesn't leak a drop of water.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/417/EPMNPJ.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 19, 2018, 02:53:52 PM
I decided to use the four jaw chuck rather than the faceplate. I figured the part was less apt to move when held in the four jaw chuck. In this shot I have just used my largest drill (1") to get all the way thru. You will also see that this time I decided to use some cardboard under the chuck jaws. I generally forget that and then have to contend with the marks that the jaws leave afterwards. Now I will switch over to my boring tools and finish boring out the cylinder hole and the larger diameter that surrounds it for a "water gallery". I will also put in the o-ring grooves in each side before I tear down the set-up.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/9539/gt6Mro.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 19, 2018, 08:55:46 PM
It's been a very boring day. My butt is totally kicked!!! I'm going to wash my hands, go upstairs, and make an early start on the Christmas Baileys.
 (https://imageshack.com/a/img922/7685/imdfWf.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Craig DeShong on December 19, 2018, 11:54:23 PM
It's been a very boring day.
  :lolb:

Looking good Brian.  With all this progress you need to start thinking what your NEXT project will be !
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 20, 2018, 12:09:32 AM
Craig--I'm having fun with this one, and really not thinking of a "next" project. This is my thirty first engine and I like it because the side-shaft style is something I haven't done before. I was inspired by your side shaft build, and what an excellent runner it is. Other than the different governor and the face-cam, all of the stuff on this engine is "been there/done that".
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 20, 2018, 04:59:32 PM
Anybody out there want to put in a bid on a mountain of cast iron swarf? I can guarantee that it's fresh!!
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/6411/A6abLZ.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: crueby on December 20, 2018, 06:34:30 PM
Put it in a shipping box on the porch and hope someone steals it!
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 20, 2018, 07:13:31 PM
Laydieeees and Gentlemennn--to amaze and delight you, we have--TADA---a cylinder, finished and bolted in place. It isn't honed nor lapped yet on the inside. That will happen after the piston gets made.--Chris--Great Idea.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/7764/dDxeWU.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on December 20, 2018, 07:16:40 PM
Hello Brian,

I'm loving this engine even before you get it finished and running.  :praise2:

Have a great holiday,
Thomas
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 21, 2018, 08:05:27 PM
This morning I had five hours of "real" work. This afternoon I machined a cast iron piston. It is completely finished other than external lapping. It is larger than the cylinder bore by .002" to .003". I have ordered some #8 to 12 micron diamond lapping compound, and it should be here before Christmas.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/7655/gjIxs9.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 22, 2018, 02:09:54 PM
Today I will machine a con rod. My initial idea was to make one from bronze, but none of my suppliers have bronze in stock in the size I wanted. That's okay. I will build one from aluminum. I have many engines with 6061 aluminum connecting rods and they work just fine. I like to build my con rods as one piece and then cut the caps loose with a slitting saw, bolt them back together, then drill and ream the "big end" hole.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/5735/VOjMsg.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 22, 2018, 04:11:01 PM
In this shot we have the second step of machining the connecting rod. The first step was to machine a piece of 1/2" aluminum stock down from 1/2" to 7/16". The small end has the 3/16" hole drilled and reamed. All of the other holes are what form the radii between surfaces on the rod.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/3664/1g54lA.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 22, 2018, 09:23:26 PM
So---Today was con-rod day. I can't believe it, but it has taken the entire day to make this little beastie. I wanted to post a pic of it installed on the engine, but it doesn't fit. How can that be? It fits perfectly on a piece of 1/2" cold rolled round stock. Out comes the micrometer, and guess what.--The center journal on my one piece crankshaft isn't 0.500". It is 0.520" diameter. POOP!!! I'm not even going to try to set that crankshaft up in the 4 jaw chuck again. I will now figure out how to set up the con-rod in my mill and open the big end up to 0.520".  Don't let all of those pill bottles in the background disturb you. I get a fresh supply of them full of pills every month, and the old bottles are perfect containers for teensy weensy little bolts and nuts.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/3340/XaKUqX.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 23, 2018, 02:56:16 PM
So here we are. Two things going on here. One shows the con-rod sandwiched between two scrap pieces of aluminum plate and set up in the vice to be bored out to 0.520" diameter to match the oversized crankshaft journal, and a second picture of the con-rod in place in the engine assembly. There is currently no piston in there---I'm waiting for some diamond lapping paste.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/9470/7i5Q6a.jpg)
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/6632/wxmdXr.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Craig DeShong on December 23, 2018, 09:45:08 PM
The center journal on my one piece crankshaft isn't 0.500". It is 0.520" diameter.

I used to go absolutely BALLISTIC when that happened in my work; but a good friend and a machinist I highly regard told me once that "The mark of a good machinist is someone who can cleverly get out of the situations they find themselves in".  I don't know if that's really true, but it makes me feel a lot better when crap like this happens in my shop and I figure a way out like you just did.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 23, 2018, 11:45:04 PM
Craig--A number of people have told me they admired my ability to find "work arounds" and ways to salvage machined parts and pieces when the "went south".   I've never really thought about it too much, I just thought that everybody done that. The crankshaft journal being oversize came as a big surprise. I'm sure I measured it when I was machining it, but that operation of machining with the crankshaft offset and the cutting tool stuck out half a mile is so nerve racking that perhaps as soon as I seen that it had cleaned up all right I just left it without a final measurement. Opening the hole in the con-rod to fit the journal was a bit of a brain twister. the con-rod doesn't have parallel sides. Fortunately the width of boss at both ends was the same, so sandwiching it between two plates was the answer to holding it. Thanks for stopping by and saying hi.---Brian
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Johnmcc69 on December 24, 2018, 12:00:56 AM
Better than a bent crankshaft.
 Nice work Brian.

 John
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: crueby on December 24, 2018, 01:13:23 AM
Nice recovery!

 :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 24, 2018, 01:45:22 AM
I haven't given a lot of thought about carburation nor exhaust yet. The rocker arm for the exhaust valve sets at the bottom of the head, so consequently the carburetor and intake valve will get the port closest to the top of the engine. I think that for a carburetor I will use a variation of Malcolm Stride's Jaguar carb, with the throttle removed and a solid carb body. My fuel line from the built in gas tank is going to run out from that hole in the very bottom of the cooling reservoir block, so it may be interesting getting a fuel line from down there up to where the carburetor is.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/9352/JhucqU.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Roger B on December 24, 2018, 09:28:17 AM
Coming along well  :praise2:  :praise2: We all have these 'small' measuring problems. One end of the of the crankshaft on my diesel is 11.5mm instead of 12mm which cost me an 11.5mm reamer  ::)

Are you going to put a non-return valve in the fuel line as the tank is somewhat below the carb?
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: gbritnell on December 24, 2018, 01:34:30 PM
Brian,
On most of the hit and miss engines the valve set-up is horizontal whether pushrod operated or by shaft like yours. The exhaust is generally to the outside with different configurations for the intake. On Associated engines there is a tower over the intake on which the exhaust pivots while on others like the Domestic side shaft the valves are staggered so the exhaust rocker arm can pass by. Stacking them like you have will still allow for an operating engine but will just look very different from conventional hit and miss designs.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 24, 2018, 01:49:44 PM
Roger--I will have a one way check valve in the fuel line running up to the carburetor. George--I'm not worried about it looking a bit unconventional---Nobody around here has ever seen a hit and miss engine.---Brian
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 25, 2018, 03:31:36 PM
My diamond lapping compound came in yesterday. This morning, bright and early before the Christmas crowd gets here I got up and diamond lapped the piston into the cylinder. I think it went quite successfully. the piston and the inside of the cylinder have taken on a dull grey finish, and the piston will not fall thru the cylinder, but will go with a slight push. If I hold my hand over one end of the cylinder and try to push the piston thru from the other end, it air-locks and won't go.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/3641/7RLLKT.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 25, 2018, 10:03:59 PM
The Christmas crowd has come and gone, and I have reassembled the engine.  Everything goes round and round, and has amazing compression when I seal the end of the cylinder with the palm of my hand. This is a good sign.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: crueby on December 25, 2018, 10:08:47 PM
Excellent results!
What do you use to clean the diamond paste off the surfaces, dont want any particles staying behind and continuing to cut. I have used the paste in sharpening chisels/planes, but not in lapping much so far. Does it just wash off, or do you need a solvent of some sort?
 :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 26, 2018, 12:10:38 AM
Wipe off with dry rag. Wipe off with rag soaked in laquer thinners. Hold under hot water tap and scrub with Dawn dish detergent and an old toothbrush.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 26, 2018, 01:55:31 AM
For anybody that didn't quite get it about the gas line----These small engines will lift fuel at least 1" up from a tank, due to the vacuum created by the venturi in the carburetor. However, when the engine goes into it's "miss" cycle and no air is being pulled in thru the carburetor, the vacuum disappears---and all the gas in the line will run back down into the tank due to gravity. Then when the engine has slowed down enough to "hit" again, it can't because the gas has all ran down into the tank. To prevent that from happening, a check valve is installed in the vertical portion of the gas line. This check valve allows gasoline to flow from the tank towards the carburetor, but as soon as the gas tries to flow back down into the tank, the orange colored ball "seats" in the conical portion of line just below it and won't let the gas run back to the tank. When the engine slows down enough to want to "hit" again, it has a supply of gas right there waiting for it.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/2182/Bj7872.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: crueby on December 26, 2018, 02:14:27 AM
Great info about the gas flow!
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 26, 2018, 07:23:49 PM
The time has come, the Walrus said, to speak of many things---And the only two major parts left are the cylinder head and the face cam. I will stick with something that I know relatively well, and make the cylinder head.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/4722/12F2G6.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 27, 2018, 01:24:03 AM
Brian, you missed George's comment that the "lobe" of the can should be radial to the axis not straight across. If you imagine that grinding stone on the other forum doing the cutting while the cam is rotated horizontally it won't give the cut you have shown. You also look to have a very short duration.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Hit%20n%20Miss/Half%20scale%20Domestic%20Stovepipe/PICT0351.jpg)

Jason--seeing as it was you who posted this, it appears that you must have certain knowledge about face cams. My knowledge extends to the fact that a face cam revolves at 1/2 the speed of the crankshaft, same as a conventional cam. This being the case, the "flat" portion of the face cam should correspond to the "flat" area of a lobe cam in terms of degrees. On a conventional "lobe" cam, the rise is very gradual to the peak, and again very gradual on the downhill side of the cam. The "dwell" at the apex of a lobe style cam is really quite small.  On a face cam, it appears that the "rise" is very abrupt and of short duration, the "fall" is very abrupt and again of short duration. However, the amount of "dwell" (that area where a conventional lobe is at it's "highest lift" ) is quite long on a face cam. I have googled "design of face cams" without a great deal of success.  I know that there are "lap" and "lead" considerations on a conventional cam, which have to do with the abruptness of opening and closing the valve, which again has to do with the flank radius on the lobe. I'm not sure how that cross references to a face cam. Any wisdom you could share would be greatly appreciated.---Brian
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Jasonb on December 27, 2018, 07:19:13 AM
As the follower is a larger diameter the resulting movement of the rocker will not be as direct as a typical pushrod at right angles to a conventional cam so the opening and closing will be a smoother and of longer duration that it looks on the cam.

A slow reving hit and miss engine is not going to be anywhere near as critical as a high performance engine where valve events are far more critical and if you take a look at a few H&M engines that use conventional cams they are very much "flat topped" compared to a high lift performance cam particularly the ones with Ignitors.

best to plot out the exhaust valve movement with your cad and get the point that the exhaust starts to open and is fully closed the same as the engine you have taken your head design from and not worry so much about the fact the valve is not moving constantly.

Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 27, 2018, 02:44:33 PM
This is my first shot at designing a face cam. On the right you can see the conventional can for the "odds and ends" hit and miss engine. On the left is the face cam for the sideshaft engine I am designing.--Opinions please.--Brian
(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/7154/0J3TcF.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Jasonb on December 27, 2018, 03:03:02 PM
Brian, as I said above the larger diameter roller will not follow the face of the cam exactly so your 18.75 won't be correct. I expect it to start opening earlier and close later.


Not sure of the sizesyou are using but I have stetched it out assuming the cam is 1" OD, 1/8" thick running surface so inner edge of the "cam" is 3/4" diameter. 1/16" lift with 1/32" radius corner and fillet. 1/2" dia follower roller,

If you then plot this as a straight line along the inner edge you get a total cam length of 0.75 x pi or 2.356" and 90degree duration would be a 1/4 of that or 0.589"

You can see that the roller will start to be affected before the point where you have picked up your 18.75deg so total affected length is 0.941 or 143.8degrees

So actual cam is 26.9deg lift duration, 90degree fully open and 26.9 deg drop

larger roller would increase the lift and drop times.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 27, 2018, 09:00:52 PM
A good start was made on the cylinder head today. All of the lathe work is now finished, and the next move will be over to the milling machine.--A little story here--I have two metal suppliers in Barrie. One is a fab shop that's been around forever, they do excellent work, and they sell material over the counter. My other supplier is a young guy who does nothing except warehousing and selling material cut to length. I wanted a 1 foot length of 2 1/4" diameter aluminum. The young guy is shut down for Christmas holiday. I went to the fab shop today, and asked "How much for a 1 foot length"? The answer was $17.00. Okay, I can live with that. BUT---Unless I can find a "short" out by the rack, there is going to be a fifteen minute minimum labor charge if somebody has to cut it for me. The fifteen minute labor charge would be $18.00 The labor charge would be more than the material. I said "Screw it!" and came home and whittled my cylinder head out of a piece of plate.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/8844/KigO1p.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 27, 2018, 09:34:36 PM
My initial intent was to use a bearing I have kicking around as a cam follower. That bearing has an outside diameter of 0.867". My largest endmill is  1" diameter. Since I will be cutting the ramp on the cam with my largest endmill, this more or less dictates that my cam follower diameter must be. I should be okay. The rad of my endmill is 1/2". The rad of my bearing is .4335".
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: gbritnell on December 27, 2018, 11:18:36 PM
Brian,
As Jason showed in his sketch this is what you're trying to achieve.
This will basically be the difference between a flat tappet cam and lifter and a roller cam and lifter.
I'm attaching a sketch I made. I'ts just a general layout looking at the face of a cam disc with a roller sitting on it.
The top view shows the rise on the cam with the blue roller just touching it. The red line shows the tangent point of roller to cam rise.
As a roller cam (automobile type) has a different shape than a flat tappet cam with the same timing numbers because of the point of tangency this is the same for your hit and miss engine.
The front view shows the red tangent line and how it would look on the cam. It looks skewed because the roller is on the same centerline as the cam disc so the tangent point is offset but parallel to the axis of the roller.
The next view to the right shows a rotation of 90 degrees (180 crank) and the roller would be down on the flank of the disc.
If the lobe or high spot, whatever you want to call it, is constructed as a radian (green line) then the innermost part of the circle would hit first because it's not parallel with the axis of the roller. This cam would work but over time the timing would change because with the roller wheel hitting that tiny contact area would wear it away thus reducing open duration. The tiny contact area would also wear a notch in the roller wheel.
I have to apologize for the previous sketch. After looking at it I realized that it was wrong for the fact that I didn't subtract the tangent point on the other side of the roller wheel (the 644 dimension) In other words the leading edge of the cam lifts the roller wheel. The sketch shows 90 degrees of rotation CCW. At that point the roller wheel is off the hump and back against the tangent point on the other side. As unconventional as it looks to the eye it is correct for 90 degrees of duration. I didn't draw this to any particular size so if you plug in your dimensions the hump will change a little but it will still look similar to what I have drawn. The picture attached show the cam for my tiny side shaft engine.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 28, 2018, 01:38:36 PM
George--This is what I had in mind. IF I can use my 1" diameter endmill to put the 1/2" radius in my cam, then the cam follower should follow it without being overly concerned about tangency points. An 0.100 rad at top of the ramp should in theory let my .866" diameter cam follower roll fully around the cam, remaining in contact with no "bump" when it reaches the ramp. Both the ramp on the rise side and on the fall side would be identical.--Brian
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/3899/ejMElB.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: gbritnell on December 28, 2018, 03:22:46 PM
Brian,
The problem with your sketch is that the cam follower is drawn offset from the centeline of the cam. By moving the cam follower to center it changes the point where it starts to rise, and fall. If you take your top view and move the cam follower to center then carry that radius shape down to the front view that will give you an offset from the centerline. Now take your sketch and rotate it 90 degrees or lets say you have the exhaust open at 30 degrees BBDC and close at TDC then that would be 210 degrees crank duration (105 cam) so rotate the cam 105 degrees and draw the arc created by the end mill but you have to shift it to the other side of the center line. Now you get a shape like I had pictured in my sketch.
gbritnell
PS. Unless your cam follower is actually offset from the center line.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 28, 2018, 03:47:49 PM
So--Here we have it---a beautiful cylinder head. All the holes ended up in the right place. When I went to use my electronic angle finder to measure the 20 degree sloping face, the battery was dead. Trying to get the back open to put in a new battery broke the plastic housing. I have an old gravity actuated angle finder that I used instead. It's kind of critical, because if the angle is off by much, the spark-plug hole which is drilled blind can come out into the valve guide holes and that is very bad ju-ju. I was lucky, and the sparkplug hole come out on the far side exactly where it was supposed to. You will also see, setting beside the cylinder head, a pair of Viton O-rings which will seal the interface between the outside of the cylinder and the water reservoir.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/8360/E7TUYY.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: gbritnell on December 28, 2018, 04:03:06 PM
Brian,
I copied your sketch and scaled it as best I could and made this drawing. The top view shows the .866 cam follower on the same centerline as the cam. This gives an offset of .334 from the centerline. Now I rotated that line 105 degrees and drew a second line .344 to the other side of center. This represents the tangent point of the cam follower to the cam.
This is what your cam should look like.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 28, 2018, 04:50:19 PM
Dang George--I guess if it was easy, everybody'd be doing it!!  From what my cad models are showing me, it isn't as simple as the cam follower rolling around the face of the cam. Everything would be fine if the path on the cam was a single line with no width to it. But--The path does have width to it. Which means that the cam follower is not only following the theoretical path---It is sliding on the surface of the face while it is travelling. This sliding action is going to demand that both cam and follower are going to have to be hardened. It is beginning to look like I should scrap the cam follower bearing and substitute a 1/2" diameter piece of hardened 01 material for the cam follower and the cam itself.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: gbritnell on December 28, 2018, 05:40:33 PM
The cam doesn't really need to be hardened. You could do the roller. For the amount of time the engine runs it would have negligible wear. Actually when the roller is on or near the lower part of the cam profile it isn't really touching because of the valve clearance. It just skip along on the surface.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 28, 2018, 05:51:35 PM
With cylinder head finished and bolted in place, and cylinder o-ringed and siliconed into water reservoir, this thing is beginning to look like an engine. Very soon I'm going to have to dive into the unknown and make a face cam. George Britnel and Jason have been guiding me along on this. I'm still not certain I have the total picture sorted out in my head, but I'm running out of parts to make. One good thing is that these parts (the cam follower and face-cam) are on the outside of the engine, so if I mess something up, I don't have to tear the entire engine down to correct it.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/9928/Mykc44.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 28, 2018, 08:20:16 PM
George--I tried to reproduce your sketch. Top view shows cam follower riding against face-cam with 0.157" total lift.
Projected view below shows cam follower on face cam with projected tangent point.  0.344" dimension from centerline to tangent point is a resultant. If I connect center to tangent point, it yields an angle of 32.29 degrees. Then if I move 90 degrees from that tangent line, that should indicate where my other tangent point is. ---I think!!
I realize that there will be a few degrees of movement to get the cam follower up onto the high part of the cam track, so in consequence the valve will be completely open for 180 degrees minus whatever that small amount is, doubled??
(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/3298/HJji1z.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: gbritnell on December 28, 2018, 08:32:45 PM
Brian,
Look at the radian line you have drawn at 32.29*. Now if a cut was made at that line the inner edge would hit before the outer edge therefore changing the timing dramatically not just that but the cam follower would just hit on that corner. You want as much contact area as possible which is made by making the cut line parallel with the cam axis.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 28, 2018, 11:16:00 PM
After much heavy thinking and going slightly crazy in the process, I decided to let the power of my Solidworks software do this face cam thing for me. The area which appears as solid black in the drawing is flat, representing the area where the valve will not be influenced by the cam. I have decided to cut the profile with the side of a a 5/8" endmill and to use a 5/8" diameter cam follower. I greatly appreciate the help I received from Jason and from George Britnell.----Brian
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/274/3SahP0.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: gbritnell on December 29, 2018, 11:43:31 AM
Looks great Brian,
Sometimes parts just don't look right but the math never lies.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 29, 2018, 01:59:56 PM
Today I'm going to try something a little different, and make the face cam. It is definitely different than anything I've machined before, and should make for an interesting day. I will post pictures as it develops. First we start out with a solid model, and then using the math data from the model I will machine the part.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/8910/BVIZrV.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 29, 2018, 02:35:51 PM
I know from my drawing that the outside diameter of the face cam is 1 1/4". I found a piece of 1 1/4" dia. cold rolled steel and chucked it up in the three jaw, and took a couple of passes to clean up the end. I also know that the face cam will be 1/2" thick, with a 3/8" dia. hole thru the center. so--I drilled and reamed a 0.375" dia. hole 0.8" deep in the end of the piece of steel. I also know that there will be a 7/8" diameter recess by 0.188" deep in the face, so a 7/8" diameter milling cutter was held in the tailstock chuck and plunged 3/16" deep. If I wanted to, I could now part off the piece to the thickness I need.--However--I know there will be some rotary table work before I'm finished, so I will leave the piece about 3" long to give a "chucking stub".
(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/9568/brA7Mf.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 29, 2018, 03:05:10 PM
With a couple of dimensions added to the drawing, I can see that a very large portion of the face cam is flat, with no curvature to it. That is the 0.931" dimension on the left side of the drawing. So, with the part held vertically in my rotary table chuck, I will machine that flat area away to a total of 0.157" deep.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/3843/wO8iSo.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 29, 2018, 03:25:46 PM
The part has been set up vertically in the 3-jaw chuck on my rotary table, and all of the "flat" area has been cut away to a depth of 0.157". The small remaining bit that hasn't been machined away is going to become the actual profile.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/1200/pFi0Os.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: 10KPete on December 29, 2018, 03:54:13 PM
I've been keeping my yap shut so far but it seems to me that one would want the cam stock held at 90* to the cutter so the cutter was on the same alignment as the cam follower would be....???

 :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Pete
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 29, 2018, 04:33:53 PM
Once the preceding steps have been accomplished, it comes down to basically 2 plunge cuts with a 5/8" endmill. Of course there is a bit of head scratching as to just where the plunge cuts have to be. Once they have been completed, the face-cam looks like this. Only one profiling step left, and that is using a file to "break" the sharp corners at the beginning of the remaining "lobe" area.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/8822/8C6wbo.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 29, 2018, 04:39:12 PM
Pete--I think this set-up is the one you are thinking of. The transparent grey thing is the 5/8" milling cutter. The red face-cam part is held horizontally in the 3 jaw on my rotary table. I didn't take a picture of that set-up.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/6236/N0DqG5.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 29, 2018, 05:19:06 PM
-And here is the face cam finished, roosting safely where it is intended to go. Will it work?--Well, probably. I won't know until everything else is finished and I try to start the engine. These little hit and miss engines are pretty forgiving.---Brian
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/3962/fHpn9j.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: 10KPete on December 29, 2018, 07:06:08 PM
Yep, that's the one Brian. You're way ahead of me!

 :cheers:

Pete
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 29, 2018, 10:22:41 PM
Man, I'm livin' large today!!! Finished the face cam this morning, laid down for my old man's nap this afternoon, then got up and made the ignition cam. And just as I finished the ignition cam, goodwife showed up from her part time job at the library and took me out to eat at A & W. Life don't get much better than that!!!
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/4886/SwTeQ6.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 30, 2018, 07:16:58 PM
It's no fun having an ignition cam if you don't have the rest of the parts that go with it. Today I made the ignition points mounting block and adjusting handle. I keep an old set of Dodge ignition points that I use for "set up" purposes only. Everything fits in behind the flywheel, which has been removed for this picture. My original design of the points mounting block allowed for adjusting the timing while the engine was running. I realized that I couldn't use the same method for this engine, but I redesigned the mounting block and put in two slotted adjustment holes which can be easily accessed thru the holes in the flywheel web--just not while the engine is running.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/1590/g3fuyH.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 30, 2018, 11:27:35 PM
A really good sign this evening!!---I filled the water reservoir with water and nothing appears to be leaking. There are six bolts which break thru into the water reservoir, and they were all coated with clear silicone on the threads before they were installed. The sides from which the cylinder enters and the side where it exits were both sealed with viton O-rings and silicone when the cylinder was installed. I am going to make a very fancy polished top from brass to fit the top of the reservoir, and either Loctite or J.B. weld it into place, and I had to be sure I had no leaks before doing this. I will leave it full of water overnight and hope there are no puddles around the engine when I get up tomorrow.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 31, 2018, 04:38:05 PM
This morning I machined the valve cages from brass. These "cages" have a dual function. They guide the valve by way of the reamed center hole, and they also have the valve seat machined in them using a special tool after the Loctite has set up for 24 hours. They are machined to be very slightly larger than the 0.394" holes thru the cylinder head, and are pressed and loctited into the head. The inside of the holes in the head have been degreased using a q-tip and laquer thinners. No cutting oil was used when the valve cages were machined, so they don't need degreasing. Also in the picture, you will see a piece of cold rolled steel that I use for a "pusher" so that I don't deform the valve cages while pressing them into place in the cylinder head. There will be another hole thru the sides of these cages for the inlet and exhaust ports, but it will be drilled thru both cylinder head and valve guides after the Loctite has "set" for 24 hours.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/774/wMq8IJ.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 31, 2018, 04:55:12 PM
Both valve cages are now pressed into place. At the last minute I decided not to use my arbor press, and just used my bench vise to push the cages into place. The "pusher" didn't get used. The holes in the cylinder head were reamed to 0.394". The valve cages were turned to 0.395" except for the shoulder. I seem to be getting better at this "press fit" business. The recess you see in the top/outside of the valve cages is in there to keep the valve springs centered when they are assembled with the valve which passes thru this guide.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/3125/c5av0x.jpg)
(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/8638/tnrqtV.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Art K on December 31, 2018, 07:50:19 PM
Brian,
Looks like you are making good progress. It's a good thing the sleeve and water jacket don't leak, I could picture that being a pain in the backside.
Art
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 31, 2018, 09:38:43 PM
Yes Art, if the reservoir leaks there is a lot of heartbreak in store trying to disassemble everything and seal it up again. When I came down to my shop this morning, there were no puddles anywhere around the engine, which made me feel really good.---Brian
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Craig DeShong on December 31, 2018, 10:56:03 PM
Look'in GREAT !!!  :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 01, 2019, 04:01:40 PM
Today we are going to start the new year off with a valve tutorial. For all of you guys with years of experience, this will be kinda like teaching your grandma how to suck eggs. For all the new-bees following, this method has proven to be "tried and true" for me. There are two critical areas on a valve. The most critical is of course the valve face which seals against the seat in the valve cage. The second critical area is the shank of the valve itself. It must fit into a reamed hole in the valve cage, and "run true" without sticking or being sloppy. In the two attached pictures, you will see one short piece of scrap with a 0.125" hole drilled and reamed thru it. Why??--Because, as the valve is being turned down to be a "good sliding fit" in the valve cage, we need something with a very precise 0.125" diameter hole to
 keep checking the size of the shank we are turning on the valve. This is an area where I have been burned before by taking measurements with a micrometer and trusting them to give me a "good sliding fit". With the 0.125" reamed hole in the piece of scrap, I can exactly replicate the hole in the valve caged which was reamed with the same reamer. I do NOT recommend using the brass valve cage as a checking guide. I have damaged brass valve cages in the past by doing that. The second picture shows a piece of 1/2" cold rolled in the 3 jaw chuck, with a portion of it turnmed to 0.375". Why--because no 3 jaw chuck has 0 runout. my chuck has about .003" total indicated runout, and I want the head of the valve to be perfectly concentric with the shank. Doing it this way ensures concentricity between valve stem and valve head.(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/1938/JdYlL4.jpg)
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/1091/hwhSDw.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 01, 2019, 05:11:26 PM
When I make valves, I cut the valve seats in the valve cages to an included angle of 90 degrees with a special tool I will show in a later post. I like to make my valves with a 92 degrees included angle. This seems to work best for me when it comes to lapping the valves into their seats for an air tight seal.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/5390/rMaUAD.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Jasonb on January 01, 2019, 05:16:16 PM
That's a 92 degree included angle as you INCLUDE both angles from the central axis eg 46 +46
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 01, 2019, 05:19:49 PM
In order to cut this angle, the topslide is swung around until the protractor is showing 46 degrees. This essentially means turning the top slide almost completely around and locking it in that position. Now with the lathe set up like this, it means I can reduce the shank to the correct diameter, and then use the topslide to cut the 46 degree angle without changing any set-ups.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/7060/vruW26.jpg)
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/9997/eH6Vbb.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 01, 2019, 05:46:44 PM
Now we are at the stage where deflection becomes the enemy. Whatever the length of your valve-stem is, divide it by 3 and that becomes the length which you machine. I am using a brand new HSS cutter here, and taking 0.010" depth of cut. My target diameter is 0.135" diameter. When I'm getting close to the finished diameter, I reduce my depth of cut to 0.005", and taking the same cut over two or three times, because at this diameter, the work will spring away from the tool. I am leaving the part 0.010" oversize for a reason.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/6376/WXrd9W.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 01, 2019, 07:06:20 PM
Now we get to the last third of the valve stem. Very much the same as the previous two steps, but when you get down to 0.135" diameter over the full length there is one more thing to do. we have left 0.010" oversize on the full length of the stem. Now you could work it down the rest of the way with 200 grit carborundum cloth, but it would take an awful lot of polishing. I prefer to back the cutting tool all the way out past the end of the valve stem and advance it .002", then take two or three cuts full length at that setting. Then advance it another .002" and take two or three full length cuts at that setting. Measure the portion of stem closest to the chuck, and you should be down to about 0.127". Don't measure out at the unsupported end, because it will have deflected away from the cutter and will give a false reading. And remember--measure very carefully. If we go below 0.125", we have ruined the part. Now is the time to very carefully start polishing with your carborundum paper--and remember--the part will be larger at the unsupported end than the other end. Work the part down and keep trying to slip your test piece with the reamed hole in it over the valve stem. This is a rather ticklish business, and best learned by experience. Just be sure to shut the lathe off and check frequently with your test piece. You don't want to end up with the stem undersize. once you have reached a point where your test piece will slide all the way, you are ready for the next step.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/8035/wZdOZD.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 01, 2019, 07:47:01 PM
Once you have worked the stem down with carborundum paper or emery cloth (This always takes far longer than I thought it would) to a point where your test piece slides all the way up to the end of the stem, you are ready for the next step. (Note that I didn't say the LAST step). Since we already have the topslide set over at the angle we want to cut, we take light machining cuts until we have formed the angled face of the valve. Be careful not to undercut the stem while you are doing this. I would love to say that my valve faces always come out perfectly smooth with a mirror finish,but they don't. That will be taken care of when we are ready to lap the valve into the seat. Do NOT part the valve off from the parent stock at this time. Take it out of the lathe and leave two or three inches of unturned stock to act as a handle while lapping the valve into the valve guide.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/9880/91j7aw.jpg)
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/6411/u3KknK.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 01, 2019, 08:19:14 PM
We're closing in on the last steps now. The valves have to have a cross hole drilled thru the ends for a valve collar retention pin. I drill a 1 mm (.039") dia. hole and use a 1mm piece of music wire thru it to keep things together.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/6932/lIlCET.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 01, 2019, 08:39:05 PM
Okay, we're going to wind this up for today. Setting on top of the pill bottle is the absolutely wonderful, magical valve seating tool, designed by and copied from George Britnell. This is the tool that takes all of the heartache out of leaking valves. Just push it into the valve cage from the bottom as shown, push medium hard, and rotate it about three times. That will put in a perfect valve seat every time, concentric to the guide portion of the valve cage. This has to be the best tool I have in my entire engine building arsenal.---Thank you George!!! And the last shot shows the newly made valve setting in what will be it's final home, after lapping the valve into the seat and cutting off the extended handle.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/4159/CyEY91.jpg)
(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/8382/yIKZ0Q.jpg)
(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/5329/O6vn5E.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 02, 2019, 11:36:47 PM
Today I caught a two hour break in the middle of a design job, waiting for information---So, I hustled my butt into the machine shop and made a second valve. The only time I ever wish I had a toolpost grinder is when I make valves. It would be SO nice to grind the face of the valve when I have the valve set up in the lathe. The valves will work just fine once they are lapped into their respective seats, but gee, it would be nice to put a ground finish on them.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/1412/gKiq9o.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 03, 2019, 05:04:22 PM
This morning I lapped the valves into their seats and trimmed the handles off the end of the valves. Spring retainers were made from brass and the springs were installed. The spring on the exhaust valve seems about right. The spring on the intake valve may be a little bit too strong for an atmospheric valve, but  I will find that out as work progresses. I have an assortment of different springs that I bought for a project, and if I can find a spring in the box that will work, it saves me from having to buy one.A head gasket was made from 0.030" general purpose gasket paper from the automotive store, and the cylinder head mounted in place. These engines run cool enough that I don't bother to use some high tech heat resistant material for a head gasket.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/8634/OnfgNn.jpg)
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/6294/HK65f7.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 03, 2019, 05:20:20 PM
And for all of you who have been ragging on me for years to not hold a milling cutter in a chuck---Today you get to have the last laugh. I have been saving a beautiful piece of brass to make a polished top for the water reservoir. I went to relieve it all around the edges this morning, and decided to use my newest milling cutter, which happens to be 7/16" diameter. I actually was going to use a proper collet to hold the cutter, but the shank on the damned thing is 7/16" also. I only have two sizes of collets, 3/8" and 1/2"----so---I held it in the chuck. A picture is better than a thousand words. That cut in the brass was supposed to be parallel to the top and bottom. Ah POOP!!! And that was the only brass I had. The cutter pulled out of the chuck and was heading for China and I didn't notice till it was too late.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/3558/CF5vdR.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: crueby on January 03, 2019, 05:48:50 PM
I never realized you were using the chuck, that was a lesson I learned first time I used the end mill, same result as yours...   :zap:
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 03, 2019, 05:56:11 PM
I get away with it most of the time, milling aluminum. I generally only use a collet if milling steel ---or ummm, ahhhh---brass.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: 10KPete on January 03, 2019, 06:00:54 PM
For want of a simple collet.....
 :facepalm:

Pete
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Jasonb on January 03, 2019, 06:23:32 PM
That's going to take a lot of elbow grease to polish out :(
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: crueby on January 03, 2019, 06:31:11 PM
Can you mill it down parallel again and silver solder in a piece of flat stock to get the lost material back, save the rest of the block?
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 03, 2019, 06:31:17 PM
I will redo that part and use either a 3/8" or 1/2" endmill. I know I have collets for them. Damn I hate the taste of crow.--And the feathers stick in my throat---
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 03, 2019, 06:47:37 PM
Now that I am totally disgusted with myself for ruining a perfectly good piece of brass, I think I'll do something else. I'm running out of things to build, but I want to see how things look up around the face cam and rocker arm. I think I will make the rocker arm support. Remember---"If at first you don't succeed--Screw it!! Do something else instead!!!"
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/6504/LbmAQU.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 04, 2019, 02:16:41 PM
I woke up far too early this morning and decided I should do something before I have to disappear for a 10:00 meeting. I managed to get the rocker arm support finished and silver soldered together, and made up a cam follower wheel from 01 steel, with an oilite bushing. Depending on what happens at the meeting, I may try and finish the rocker arm today.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/8615/AphnzH.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: steamer on January 04, 2019, 02:22:35 PM
I hear ya about the brain starting early....happens to me too!     Engine is coming along nicely!

Dave
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 04, 2019, 09:13:48 PM
Milestone event today. Everything related to the face cam is assembled, and it goes thru all the monkey motion in a most pleasing manner. All I have left to do is make the lock-out rod from the governor, make a fancy top for the governor, and build a carburetor.
rVeIDz-vhJ0
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Johnmcc69 on January 04, 2019, 11:51:16 PM
 :ThumbsUp:
Very cool Brian!
 :popcorn:
 John
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 05, 2019, 06:58:14 PM
Back in 2016 I had the notion that my Kerzel hit and miss engine would run better with heavier flywheels and a larger carburetor.--It didn't, but I have saved that carburetor and a one way valve for the future. The future has arrived. That engine and the one way gasoline valve will be mounted on my sideshaft engine.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/9281/fwbLX6.jpg)
(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/2390/WODrQN.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Art K on January 05, 2019, 09:11:56 PM
Sure is handy to have a spare carb hanging around. :ThumbsUp:
Art
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 06, 2019, 12:09:38 AM
I never knew there were so many ugly cutter marks on that carburetor body. Maybe I'll introduce it to a sheet of 220 grit laid out on my bandsaw table before mounting it on the engine.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Craig DeShong on January 06, 2019, 12:24:47 AM
The cutter pulled out of the chuck and was heading for China and I didn't notice till it was too late.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/3558/CF5vdR.jpg)

Been there, done that, but Mine was mounted in a collet !

Look'in good Brian, we're expecting to hear some noise presently. :pinkelephant:
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Art K on January 06, 2019, 03:33:14 AM
Quote
Been there, done that, but Mine was mounted in a collet !
Me to, always be aware of how much your roughing pass is taking off before running the program. :wallbang:
Art
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 06, 2019, 05:51:52 PM
The carb is mounted on the engine. It didn't go without some drama. I had finished and assembled things--it looked a bit crooked so I tweaked it just a teeny bit with my wrench to correct it---And it broke the fitting off right flush with the cylinder head. I was able to carry the whole engine in and mount it on my milling table, drill out the broken stub of brass fitting from the cylinder head, make up a new fitting and reassemble everything.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/3158/TTQuW0.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Art K on January 06, 2019, 07:31:39 PM
Narrowly averted disaster!
Art
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 06, 2019, 08:15:23 PM
Sometimes I really hate the Macro setting on my digital camera. It shows up things that I can't even see with the naked eye!!!
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 06, 2019, 11:56:14 PM
I'm almost ready to try and start this critter!!! Tomorrow morning I will install the one way valve in the gas line below the carburetor. I have just finished setting the valve timing. It doesn't need much more than a new spark-plug and a new set of points. It doesn't need the fancy brass top on the water reservoir to run. I can rig a temporary gas tank.  I will try to start the engine as a conventional 4 cycle engine first. Once I have accomplished that, I will play with setting up the hit and miss action.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 07, 2019, 03:10:24 PM
And for those of you who were wondering about the "latching" and "unlatching" of the governor lockout dog, here are two very interesting pictures. The actual "lockout rod" is in fact, a #10 socket head capscrew (temporary, for now) screwed thru the governor arm. The first picture shows the governor engaged. The brass governor arm has tipped down under the influence of the counterweights flying out from centrifugal force. The #10 shcs screwed thru the governor arm prevents the rocker arm from releasing pressure on the exhaust valve, holding it open. This is the "miss" cycle. The second picture shows what is going on during the "hit" cycle. The governor has slowed down, and the governor arm with the shcs thru it has tipped up. The rocker arm is now free to let the exhaust valve close, and the engine will now fire.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/7836/zUQs1F.jpg)
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/9238/XKXUkO.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 07, 2019, 05:26:14 PM
The one way fuel flow valve I had saved wasn't going to fit my carburetor set-up, so I hade a new one this morning and Loctited it onto the existing carb fuel inlet. I will probably leave a flex line on there to connect with the gas tank pipe (once the gas tank is made). For now, the flex line can attach to a temporary tank until I am satisfied that the engine is going to run.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/2411/Z5uN9l.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 07, 2019, 11:51:57 PM
This was three steps forward and one step back day. I finished up and installed the one way fuel valve in the morning. In the afternoon I had to go out and buy a piece of brass to replace the one I screwed up. (top for the water reservoir). Then I went to my automotive supply house and bought a new sparkplug, points and condenser for the engine. Then I went to a tooling shop and bought an assortment of new center drills. (the old ones I bought 11 years ago were all dull.) Then I came home, installed the new sparkplug, went to install the new points, and found they had given me the wrong ones. Had very high winds here this afternoon and every ten minutes the electricity went out. Finally about 4:30 I decided to call it a day.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 08, 2019, 08:29:10 PM
The new points and condenser are installed and the engine is timed, both ignition and valve timing. The new brass top for the water reservoir has had a "step" machined all the way around it so it can set down 1/8" down into the top of the reservoir and be 1/4" proud of it on the top side. (This time it is only 3/8" material, not 1/2" and this time I used a collet to hold my 1/2" endmill to do the job.)  I still have to profile the exposed sides to match the reservoir sides and put the hole in the center to get water into it.  I may have to machine a small "keeper" to restrain the hot wire running to the points so it doesn't rub on the flywheel. Something I have noticed is that the sideshaft gears add a lot of stiffness to the rotation of the engine. Without the sideshaft in place, a flip of them big flywheels will make them spin till the cows come home. With the sideshaft in place, not so much at all. I hope that running the engine for half an hour under it's own power will loosen things up a lot more.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 09, 2019, 07:18:48 PM
Hah!!! Got it right this time.  That brass top looks good setting on top of the water reservoir. Of course it's on there with a goodly amount of J.B. Weld, so I can't do anymore on the engine today. Maybe tomorrow I will try and start it.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/8529/fl9ToR.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: crueby on January 09, 2019, 07:33:16 PM
 :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: 10KPete on January 09, 2019, 09:14:39 PM
 :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Pete
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: MJM460 on January 09, 2019, 09:28:48 PM
Looking good Brian.

Another of your great builds.  Thank you for the clear illustration of how the hit and miss mechanism works.  Simple and elegant.

MJM460
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 09, 2019, 09:35:43 PM
MJM460--I am fervently hoping that it works--- ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: MJM460 on January 09, 2019, 09:42:09 PM
Hi Brian, I am confident that you will get it working.

Now, if I had made it.......???.  But you will inspire me to try one eventually.

MJM460

Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 09, 2019, 10:05:30 PM
This will be my fourth hit and miss engine. I started with the Kerzel about 10 years ago. Then I moved up a step and built Philip Duclos' "Odds and Ends" engine. Then I built a somewhat modified version of Philip Duclos' "Whatzit" engine. This will be my first self designed hit and miss engine. I have borrowed the "Side-shaft" concept from a build by Craig Deshong, and the face cam is used on the model "Silver Angel" and on many full size "Stovepipe Domestic" engines.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 09, 2019, 10:22:55 PM
I remember seeing a couple of hit and miss engines when I was a kid in the early 1950's. The problem with them in Canada is that people would fill them with water and use them and then forget to drain the water. In the fall the water would freeze solid and break the casting around the water reservoir. My uncle had one on a small buzz saw. It had a bad crack in the water jacket but he plugged it (mostly) with some shop rags and had a water hose running into it replacing water that ran out thru the crack. This was back at a time when there was no hydro electricity in my part of Ontario, and every night when I come home from school my job was to fill the woodbox and pump two pails of water and bring them into the house and set them on the counter for my mother. Father and I went to see some-one he knew from the army, (They were all WW2 veterans), and that guy had a hit and miss engine running his well pump with a crank driven off one of the flywheels. I was pretty darned impressed by that.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 10, 2019, 05:59:22 PM
Today was "finishing up day". I made a small wire clamp up from brass and drilled and tapped the base for it to keep the "hot wire" away from the rotating flywheel. I cross-drilled the end of the crankshaft and tapped in a hardened 1/8" split pin for the starter spud to engage with, built the starter spud (you can see it laying in the foreground) and a final shot of the starter spud in place on the end of the crankshaft. It fits into my variable speed electric drill and becomes my "engine starter".
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/6302/PR0bEM.jpg)
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/5979/5wWqaM.jpg)
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/8891/hdmDjQ.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Roger B on January 10, 2019, 06:31:15 PM
The prominent brass knob is your ignition timing adjuster? I see your starter spud is straight. You haven't found the need to slope one side for automatic disengagement?

Good luck for the first start  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp:  :wine1:
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 10, 2019, 08:24:43 PM
And now we're in "troubleshoot" mode. Engine is finished except for gas tank. I have a temporary fuel tank rigged, and two fire extinguishers right beside me. Engine turns over freely, but doesn't have a lot of compression. That's okay, non of my engines had much compression until they fired half a dozen times, which "seats" the valves better than any lapping can. If choked by finger over the carburetor inlet while turning it with the drill, I can see fuel rushing up thru the transparent gas line. I'm getting fuel up to the carburetor okay. If sparkplug is unscrewed and lain on the cylinder head, I've got lots of spark and visually it is coming at the correct time in the sequence of piston movement. Valve timing is spot on, with exhaust valve popping open just as the piston begins to move up on exhaust stroke, and closing just as piston reaches the top dead center. There is very little lead or lag on the valve timing in this engine. It opens and closes within 180 degrees of crankshaft movement. Governor is not hooked up right now. I have to get the engine running first, then I start to play with the governor. I squirted dawn dish-soap around cylinder head to cylinder connection and ran the engine with my electric drill. No bubbling anywhere, so head gasket is not leaking. I have very, very little fuel, and I think I just toasted my electric drill (it's been going funny for a while now). Next step is to run up to my hardware store and buy a new drill and a can of Coleman fuel.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 10, 2019, 08:26:44 PM
Roger--I have never had a problem with disengagement. The fit between the starter stub and the crankshaft is quite sloppy. When the engine begins to fire and run I just pull the drill and starter stub away from the engine.

-----Another thing I have to check is adequate clearance between the rocker arm and the end of the exhaust valve. There should be .005" to .008" of clearance when the valve is not "up" on the cam. If the exhaust valve is not being allowed to close completely, all the compression leaks away thru the exhaust port.  I think perhaps the spring on my atmospheric inlet valve is too strong. I judge this by "feel", by pushing on the end of the exhaust valve stem. It is a delicate balance. The spring has to be strong enough to close the valve but weak enough to be pulled open by the vacuum created when the piston is travelling towards bottom dead center on the intake stroke.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: cheepo45 on January 10, 2019, 09:32:17 PM
I.C. Engines always take a little fiddling to get them to run the first time, but it is a great feeling when they do start up.
I have followed your builds with great interest. Thanks for your great postings.
 You should look in to putting all your designs into a book-I would buy it!

Try a good squirt of oil in the carb. to seal the piston and valves up. That may give it enough compression to run.
 Scott
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 10, 2019, 11:38:01 PM
 I have had engines start up and run first time I tried them. I have had engines which made me pull hair out of my already bald head. This engine has a leaky intake valve. How can I tell?--If I spin the flywheels when the piston is going into the compression stroke, it just turns as if there was no cylinder head on it. If I hold my finger over the carburetor inlet and do the same thing, the flywheels bounce back. If I hold my finger over the carburetor throat and turn the engine thru what would normally be the intake stroke, then move my finger off the carb throat, it will pop like a champagne cork. This tells me that the exhaust valve is sealing okay.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 11, 2019, 03:52:24 PM
Damn--I just entered a big post and it disappeared. I pulled the cylinder head off this morning and relapped the intake valve and that solved my compression issues. I kept on clipping one coil at a time off the intake valve spring until I could see the intake valve bobbing open and closed as the motor was turned over by the drill. The engine runs quite happily along with the drill, firing as I expect it to but when I pull the drill away the engine slows down and stops after about 15 seconds. I seem to be having a gas starvation issue. I may have to try it without that ball check valve in the fuel line to see if that has anything to do with the fuel issue.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Admiral_dk on January 11, 2019, 06:59:17 PM
Congratulations on first pop  :cheers:

It shouldn't take too long before you have the last issues solved - awaiting the video  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 11, 2019, 07:06:28 PM
My butt is kicked for today. I pulled the home made carb off and put a Traxxas 4033 carb on to see what would happen, and removed the one way check valve from the gas line.  Same thing happened. Engine would start if I held my finger over the air intake on the carburetor, but not well enough to stay running on it's own. I advanced the ignition timing a few degrees to see if that would make any difference, but no real notable difference was seen. Even with the leaky intake valve fixed, I'm not getting the compression I would expect to have. So--Weak compression with very poor ability to pull gas into the carburetor--My piston may not be sealing in the cylinder as well as I would have liked. Tomorrow I will make a different piston with an o-ring on it and see what difference that makes.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Craig DeShong on January 12, 2019, 01:20:49 AM
Brian

You're making progress.  I usually have to load the cylinder up work oil on a new engine to get it to run.  After running a few minutes, smoking like crazy, the rings seat and the compression comes up.

You'll get there.  I've had only one engine that ran without "tweaking".
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: cfellows on January 12, 2019, 05:53:39 AM
Hey Brian, I wonder if your intake valve spring might be too stiff?
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 12, 2019, 02:25:35 PM
Okay Gents--Just so we keep this straight: First try--engine would fire along with drill driving it but only if I held my hand over the carb intake to choke it. This points out lack of fuel, so I tried unscrewing the hi speed jet as much as I could, but that did nothing to fix the problem.****During the course of doing this, the engine had very low compression---it spun too easily .  A check and some diagnostics showed that the intake valve was leaking quite badly. I pulled of the cylinder head and relapped the intake valve, and the compression came up considerably. While the head was off and the intake valve was free of it's spring, I clipped one full coil from the intake valve spring.
**** This did nothing to improve the situation, so after checking my valve and ignition timing to be absolutely sure it was correct, I decided that perhaps the carb venturi vacuum wasn't strong enough to overcome the check ball in my gas line. I removed the check ball and at the same time switched over to a Traxxas aeroplane carburetor which I know works properly (The spare carb I've had laying around for two years was a bit of an unknown). This was the carburetor off the Rockerblock engine, which ran very well. The problem remained the same.
**** I tried lifting the fuel tank higher, but this made no difference.
**** The intake spring still seemed a bit stiff to me, so I removed it and cut another full coil from it. This didn't change my original problem of engine starting and running with drill, but then dying away when the drill was removed.
****I removed the rocker arm and took another 0.01" off the head of the shcs which contacts the end of the exhaust valve to be absolutely sure that the exhaust valve was not being held open.
**** I took another half coil off the intake valve spring, but I think that now I've taken too much off it, so will put in a new spring this morning.
**** I pulled out the sparkplug (which is brand new) and laid it on the water reservoir while turning the flywheels by hand. Lots of spark, coming at what I judge to be the correct time.
**** I had very little Coleman fuel, so I purchased a new can, hoping that new fuel might make a difference,---It didn't.
**** One of the things I did notice during all of this, is that the governor is operating just as I had hoped it would, however I don't have it hooked up yet, and won't until I have the engine running properly.
****Todays plan is to first try a slightly longer intake valve spring. If that doesn't fix things I will take one flywheel off and try the engine with only one flywheel. This shouldn't make a difference, but I have seen stranger things happen. These flywheels are 1" wide, so if the engine decided it will run with one flywheel, I can thin both flywheels down to get rid of a lot of the weight.
****If none of the above things fix the problem, I will make a new piston with a Viton o-ring on it.
**** Beyond that, if the engine still hasn't decided to run, I will have to seriously consider that perhaps my face cam is the culprit, but I hope not. I'm really proud of that face cam.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 12, 2019, 03:26:47 PM
A slightly longer inlet valve spring didn't do it. I thought about this for 30 seconds and then decided to pull the existing iron piston and groove it for an o-ring. Normally I make my o-ring grooves 0.058" deep x 0.093" wide, which works well with a nominal 1/16" cross section o-ring. They aren't really 1/16".--In truth they are 0.070" in cross section. I made the groove for this one 0.060" deep.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/3430/jvVpGx.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: RayW on January 12, 2019, 03:52:17 PM
Hi Brian,

I had a similar lack of compression problem with my Otto vertical, even after re-making the cast iron rings several times. I changed to Viton O rings and the difference was amazing, with vastly improved compression and much better running.
Just one other thought. Have you checked to see that you are not losing any compression past the exhaust valve? If you are, it might be worth re-lapping the valve and/or replacing the spring with a stronger one.

Ray
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 12, 2019, 04:04:46 PM
Lack of suckage has been discovered. The elbow which screws into the top of the cylinder (part of the intake manifold from carburetor) was cracked on the back side where I couldn't see it. Of course it has left me with a mess, and broken off flush with the top of the cylinder. So, once again the cylinder head goes up on the mill to remove the broken off shank. Bad as this may sound, it is a relief to know why the engine wasn't pulling up gas from the carburetor.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/4408/okXerp.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: cheepo45 on January 12, 2019, 06:11:49 PM
Thanks, Brian for keeping us up to date on getting your engine running.
 This should really be helpful to a lot of modelers.
There are quite a few of us who have built many air powered models that run fine, but haven't had much luck with I.C. engines.
Your explanations are valuable to all of us.
 Scott
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 12, 2019, 07:59:26 PM
Scott--I.C. engines aren't all that more difficult than air engines. I'm having some issues with this one, but I've built others that started up and ran immediately. A lot of getting a small i.c. engine to run is being able to do diagnostics. I try and "show it like it really is" when I build and engine and get it running.---Brian
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 12, 2019, 09:13:20 PM
Engine with new fitting to replace cracked one in intake manifold  is now picking up fuel from the carburetor on it's own without need for manually choking the carburetor. Getting many short runs, which has me grabbing for the camera, but then it dies out and quits. I thought perhaps the two flywheels were too much weight for a 1" bore engine, so I removed one flywheel, but that didn't change anything. I'm about to give it up for today. The Traxxas carb is a throttled carburetor, and now that I have the engine sucking up fuel on it's own, I may trade back to the hit and miss carb tomorrow.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: 10KPete on January 12, 2019, 09:26:58 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

 :popcorn: :popcorn:

 :cheers:

Pete
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 13, 2019, 12:55:51 AM
I've spent the last three hours going over everything I knew or thought I knew about small i.c. engines and carburetors. I knew I was missing something, but couldn't remember what it was. Okay kiddies, here it is.  The speed of air flowing thru the carburetor is directly proportional to how many times the piston goes from top dead center to bottom dead center in a given period of time. Small high rpm engines can get away with large bore carburetors because at the rpm range they run, the air must flow very fast through the carburetor throat. The venturi effect that creates the vacuum to pull gas up from the tank is created in direct relationship to how fast the air is flowing through the carburetor. On small SLOW rpm engines as I have designed here, the air flowing through a large bore carburetor doesn't have to go nearly as fast, so the venturi effect is much less, and consequently it won't lift the gas from the tank as quickly and efficiently as we would like. To compensate for that, low rpm engines use a smaller bore carburetor, which makes the air flow faster. This in turn makes the venturi effect greater, and allows the engine to lift gas up from the tank as efficiently as we want it to.  There is no doubt in my mind that the cracked fitting in my intake manifold was allowing air to come in thru the crack, so as a consequence the fuel wasn't being lifted up from the tank at all unless I manually choked the carb with my finger. The part I couldn't understand was why, after I had replaced the cracked fitting, didn't the engine run and keep running. The Traxxas carburetor has a 6 mm bore--that is 0.236". My engine would only run with the throttle almost completely closed, and even then would die out within 15 to 20 seconds after the drill was disengaged. My plan for tomorrow is to make a new carburetor with a smaller bore, similar to the carb that was used on the Kerzel and Upshur hit and miss engines, with a 3/16" bore.  :pinkelephant: :pinkelephant:
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: 10KPete on January 13, 2019, 01:07:36 AM
 :ThumbsUp:

Makes sense to me!

Pete
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Art K on January 13, 2019, 05:18:46 AM
Brian,
On my Upshur single I originally tried to match the 3/16" inlet tube. The closest Perry carb was .198". It ran well with that one but if I cracked the throttle to far it would kill it. After I melted that one, I got a .178" one, it'll run 7200 rpm now. I probably don't need to tell you at this point that unlike you, I see how fast it will go instead of how slow. I think it was having the same effect and with to much air was killing it. Looks like you'll have it running soon.
Art
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 13, 2019, 05:00:14 PM
All things cometh to he who waiteth---If he worketh like Hell while he waiteth!! I put the smaller bore non throttled carburetor on this morning, fiddled with the ignition timing a little bit, and away we go. I think my heart may explode!!!  I may fill the reservoir with water, start the engine, and do nothing else today except set and watch the engine run.
O3A03oFJqEU
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: crueby on January 13, 2019, 05:02:55 PM
 :whoohoo: :pinkelephant: :cartwheel: :pinkelephant: :whoohoo:
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: steamer on January 13, 2019, 05:20:42 PM
She's a Runnah!    congrats Brian!


Dave
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: bruedney on January 13, 2019, 05:40:36 PM
 :cartwheel: :cartwheel: :pinkelephant: :pinkelephant: :whoohoo: :whoohoo: Well done Brian
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Kim on January 13, 2019, 05:57:59 PM
Congratulations Brian!  Looks like it runs quite well, too!  :ThumbsUp:
Kim
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on January 13, 2019, 06:24:44 PM
Hello Brian,

Beautiful to see it running so well. :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: mikehinz on January 13, 2019, 06:50:25 PM
I've been following along silently on this build.  This is a fantastic accomplishment.  I stand in awe of your abilities!

Mike
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Admiral_dk on January 13, 2019, 07:23:06 PM
A really great result so far Brian  :whoohoo:  congratulations   :cheers:

It will be a fine runner after a bit more running time and hopefully doing great on the Hit'n'Miss function too.

Enjoy your watching  ;)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 13, 2019, 08:28:01 PM
Someone asked if I was going to give any information about the new carb that is currently on the engine. This is the carb, and the download link will get you all the details from a web hosting site.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/9175/nqCIFP.jpg)
http://www.mediafire.com/file/wh1gifgyeutf3vt/HIT_AND_MISS_ENGINE_CARBURETOR.zip/file (http://www.mediafire.com/file/wh1gifgyeutf3vt/HIT_AND_MISS_ENGINE_CARBURETOR.zip/file)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 13, 2019, 09:20:42 PM
This video shows a bit of close up detail on the face cam. I had never built a face-cam before, so I'm rather thrilled.
euuOimCpG0I
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: cheepo45 on January 13, 2019, 11:04:00 PM
Nicely done!
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: 10KPete on January 13, 2019, 11:35:39 PM
Hey, hey, hey! Well done, Brian!!

 :cartwheel:

 :cheers:

Pete
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 14, 2019, 10:23:28 PM
I have spent a couple of hours this afternoon "fine tuning" the engine. It has a very fine range on the needle valve, to hit the "sweet spot" where it runs at maximum rpm and runs at that rpm consistently without faltering. I have also been playing with the length and strength of the intake valve spring. It is very close now, almost time to add in the link that lets my governor come into play for the hit and miss action. It is running right on the edge of "scary fast".
BIHJ07ETuyY
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Craig DeShong on January 14, 2019, 10:41:44 PM
I've missed a few days and you've been busy  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

Looks and runs great Brian, can't wait to see that governor in operation.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 15, 2019, 03:34:07 PM
Today I am messing around with the hit and miss function of this engine. It definitely works. Engine fires up, gains rpm., up to a point where the governor lever tilts down and the threaded rod blocks the rocker arm from releasing the exhaust valve. Engine goes into miss cycle, and rapidly slows down until rocker arms is released. Exhaust valve is allowed to release, then engine  tries to run again but doesn't quite make it. I have found that my anti-backflow valve isn't working, so while the engine is missing, all the gas in my gas line is running back into the tank. I broke down this morning and ordered  an anti-backflow valve from a hobby shop in Mississauga. It has a neoprene ball in it, which should do a lot better at keeping the gas in the gas line.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Jasonb on January 15, 2019, 03:39:36 PM
Running well Brian

Next engine will have to have a fuel pump on it like the R&V that both myself and Craig have recently done :LittleDevil:

I've only used a NR valve on one engine which was the ball hopper monitor and although I did take the P M Research valve apart can't remember the size of what was inside :headscratch:
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 15, 2019, 04:10:49 PM
I will probably work on the fuel tank now, because everything else is finished. Measurements show that a tank 1" wide x 1.5" tall, x 5 1/2" long will fit the location I have shown in the 3D model. There are a number of ways I could go about building this tank, but since I have no equipment for welding aluminum I may make it out of steel rectangular tubing with ends and filler neck and outlet tube silver soldered into place.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/3130/l3clsm.jpg)
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/305/1VUwr6.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 15, 2019, 07:16:49 PM
I'm having an easy day today, so thought I would build the gas tank. Laying on the chair you see the rectangular steel tube 1" x 1 1/2" x 1/8" wall, a piece of 1" x 1/8" stl. flat bar, a brass or bronze pipe cap, and a 90 degree black iron pipe elbow. I have already cut the extra length that I didn't need from the elbow, by screwing it to a 1/2" straight pipe nipple and cutting it off in the lathe.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/2787/mncE64.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 15, 2019, 07:57:34 PM
With the little bronze or brass pipe cap gets screwed onto a matching pipe nipple and then set up in the lathe, it changes quickly from an ugly duckling to a pretty gas cap.---And yes, I know my lathe is pig dirty. I can do things two ways. I can use my lathe dirty until the project ends and I thoroughly clean it up, or I can keep it nice and clean and never do any work.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/246/hA4YVS.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 15, 2019, 09:44:34 PM
This is as much as I'm going to do today. That pipe elbow has been welded to the endcap on the inside with my mig welder. Not continuous---just three good tacks to keep things from moving when I solder that end with the elbow onto the end of the rectangular tube. I have to solder the elbow to the endplate at the same time to get everything leakproof. I'm going to mig weld those little "bolting ears" also.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/1911/sbGLBA.jpg)
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/5542/YMYoxy.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: crueby on January 15, 2019, 10:13:27 PM
Very productive day!


 :popcorn:
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: 10KPete on January 16, 2019, 07:15:34 AM
Beautiful approach! Love it.

 :cheers:

Pete
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Jasonb on January 16, 2019, 07:41:53 AM
Is it me or has the photo of the tank parts laying on the chair disappeared?
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: MJM460 on January 16, 2019, 08:28:50 AM
hi Jason, the picture still appears on my iPad,

MJM460
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Art K on January 16, 2019, 12:01:47 PM
Brian,
Glad to see that you have it running. :whoohoo:
Art
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Roger B on January 16, 2019, 12:48:32 PM
Looks and sounds good  :praise2:  :praise2: Patience pays off  :wine1:
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 16, 2019, 03:18:50 PM
Today we have a 99% finished gas tank. It isn't pretty but very little of it is exposed when it is bolted into place. I may actually splash a bit of gasoline resistant chassis black paint on it before installing it.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/5697/fsElpp.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 16, 2019, 04:27:28 PM
TADA!!! We have a finished and installed gas tank. Everything fits. I will hook up the pipe from the other end when I get the anti-flowback valve that  I have ordered
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/4251/ZoIkj4.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 17, 2019, 01:47:54 AM
I have been notified by Canada Post that my new anti-backflow valve will arrive tomorrow. At that point, the voodoo will begin. Setting up the governor on a hit and miss engine is kind of a black art. On other engines like the Kerzel and the Odds and Ends hit and miss, the only variable is the strength of the governor springs. On this engine there is going to be a whole whack of variables. First I start out with the assumption that my flywheels are heavy enough. I'm sure that if anything, they are probably too heavy, but I don't really know. This leaves a few other variables. One is the strength of the compression spring that holds the governor normally disengaged. Another is the amount of engagement between the governor latch rod and the rocker arm. A third may possibly be the second threaded adjustment rod that determines how far out the governor weights are allowed to fly. Should my carburetor adjustment be richer, or leaner. I hope to figure all of this out in the coming week. I've came a long way on this project since it began four weeks ago. Everything to this point in time has been successful. The engine runs (and keeps running). The water reservoir doesn't leak. I will find out tomorrow if there are any leaks in my new gas tank. (I've tried it with tap water, but Coleman fuel will leak thru spots that tap water won't.) Wish me luck guys, it's been a fun ride.---Brian
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Roger B on January 17, 2019, 07:17:04 AM
Good luck  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 17, 2019, 06:36:29 PM
My incredibly small anti-backflow valve showed up today. It's not very big, but it doesn't have to be any bigger. This goes into the gas line between the carburetor and the gas tank to keep all the fuel from running back into the tank when the engine is in "miss" cycle. I had built one of these, but it didn't work consistently and I didn't feel like messing with it. Mine was made with a 3/16" diameter steel ball. I think this bought one has a neoprene ball.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/2154/s5t2Af.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 18, 2019, 04:27:54 PM
Engine is running steadily and consistently now, using fuel from it's own tank. Plumbing the tank got a little crazy  but it all worked out well and incorporated my new anti-backflow valve. nothing appears to be leaking. It's setting beside me here on my office desk, running like crazy. Next thing will be to set up the governor.---Brian
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/817/uk7cJq.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 18, 2019, 05:36:08 PM
Doom, despair, and agony on me---the damned purchased anti backflow valve from Sullivan #S756 doesn't work. Not only doesn't it work, but when I called Great Hobbies in Mississauga where I purchased it, they won't send me another one, claiming I have to ship this faulty one back to them at my expense ($11.00) before they will send me a second valve to try. I am at an impasse now. Not sure what to do. Their customer service man is supposed to call me back this afternoon. If he doesn't make me happy, I may drive to Mississauga and pull his arms and legs off!!!
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 18, 2019, 06:06:30 PM
I just got the call from Great Hobbies telling me that this Sullivan valve will only operate if there is "back pressure" from the line on the outflow side of the valve, to seat the ball. I think they ---well--it doesn't matter what I think. Fact is, I'm out $35 and don't have a solution to the problem. I can try building another one myself, with a smaller ball (My first one had a 3/16" diameter ball) which may have been too heavy for the venturi vacuum to lift of the seat. If anybody knows of  a source for a purchased anti backflow valve that doesn't rely on back-pressure in the line to make it work, please tell me.---Brian
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: michaelr on January 18, 2019, 06:45:05 PM
Brian you could try a variation on this idea  vJiA43Mn1D0 Make to suit your engine size would cost very little.

Mike.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on January 18, 2019, 07:31:43 PM
I just got the call from Great Hobbies telling me that this Sullivan valve will only operate if there is "back pressure" from the line on the outflow side of the valve, to seat the ball. I think they ---well--it doesn't matter what I think. Fact is, I'm out $35 and don't have a solution to the problem. I can try building another one myself, with a smaller ball (My first one had a 3/16" diameter ball) which may have been too heavy for the venturi vacuum to lift of the seat. If anybody knows of  a source for a purchased anti backflow valve that doesn't rely on back-pressure in the line to make it work, please tell me.---Brian

Hello Brian,

Sorry to hear about the check valve problem and I am sure that you already know this, but with an Inline Check Valve in the vertical position if there is "any" suction from the returning fluid that within itself should close the valve. The guy telling you that it needs "back pressure" is giving you a bit of a run around ( I am being very nice here). If the valve on the outlet side has too much back pressure it would not open, assuming no pressure on the incoming side other than gravity. I think the guy is "BS-n" you. Just my 2-cents worth. Hope you get it worked out.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 18, 2019, 07:40:38 PM
Oh well--You live--you learn!! I did a little research as to why my own check valve didn't work as well as I would have liked. I was on the right track, but I had my check ball setting in a tapered seat, which was cut by the end of a drill. Conventional wisdom seems to be that you shouldn't have a tapered seat. Just a square cut end on the part which the ball sets against. Before assembling, set ball on top of part it seals with and give it one good whack with a hammer. Not enough to deform the outside of the part, but enough to form a very small area which conforms exactly to the shape of the ball which formed it. I will now build another check valve like this.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/9043/aG41c2.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Stuart on January 18, 2019, 07:50:58 PM
Brian

Do not use the ball you set the seat with as the ball to use

Also make up a drift centred drilled to set and strike the ball with

If you are using a SS ball for the valve use a steel one to form the seat

Itís good practice to drill and ream the though hole


Good luck

Stuart
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 18, 2019, 09:16:57 PM
Thanks Stuart. I will do that. I broke the shear-pin in my lathe today. I have wondered ever since I bought that lathe what would happen if I ran it past the limits in power feed. Now I know---"SNAP" and that's all she wrote. It has a brass shear pin 1/8" diameter x 1" long between the gear box and the rod that runs along the front of the lathe to move the carriage. I was power feeding towards center, not parallel to the ways. I adjusted the angle of cut, and that moved the cutting tool towards the front of the lathe. I never wound it across manually because I had been taking many cuts exactly the same. Ran out of travel and broke the pin. I have removed the broken pin and will buy a piece of 1/8" dia. brass tomorrow to make a new one. The good news in this is that nothing broke except the pin.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Stuart on January 19, 2019, 03:28:25 PM
Brian

Thanks very good news, kudos to the manufacturers to 1 fit a pin and 2 make it the weak link

Stuart
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 19, 2019, 06:34:20 PM
These past two days have been difficult. It seems like all of my engine building skills have deserted me. The engine has not ran properly since I put the new gas tank in place. There are a thousand of these small model hit and miss engines out there with the fuel tanks in the base of the engine. They don't have any problem pulling fuel up from the tank, and they don't have a problem losing their gas back into the tank during their miss cycles. There are a limited number of things that can effect these small engines. Compression, ignition, valve timing, strength of spring on intake valve, and fuel delivery. Everything is fine on my engine except perhaps the fuel delivery. I have to try some other things, one being a spare fuel tank set up to be just below the carburetor.---Brian
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Jasonb on January 19, 2019, 06:39:24 PM
You might want to put a small vent hole in the cap, I can't see one in the photos as the engine won't suck fuel against a vacuum.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 19, 2019, 07:03:35 PM
There is a .039" diameter hole in the cap. I may have put it in after the picture was posted.---Brian
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 19, 2019, 08:48:21 PM
Ah Ha--something is rotten in this low mounted fuel tank. Now I have to determine if the engine won't pull fuel up from a base mounted tank, or if it won't pull it up thru my anti flowback valve. I suspect the anti flowback valve to be the culprit. Engine runs just fine on a tank mounted  up very close to the underside of the carburetor. (I said "High carburetor". (I meant high fuel tank.)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ls16yrIf10& (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ls16yrIf10&)
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/207/qq5q1n.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: MJM460 on January 19, 2019, 09:13:38 PM
Hi Brian,

So near yet so far.   Is it worth setting the fuel tank on a chair below the bench, connected with a longer plastic tube, and see how much suction you get with that carby while you turn the engine with your drill?  The height it will lift the fuel in the tube, even though it does not reach the needle valve, tells you how much suction is available in the throat.

A throttle plate or even an air cleaner in the air intake would give more suction and so might just help.

Itís a great looking engine, itís got to run!  And it will.

MJM460

Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 19, 2019, 09:41:16 PM
The engine would lift fuel up from the tank when cranked with my electric drill. The engine would start with my electric drill, and then run for about one full minute and quit, as if it had run out of gas. Current theory is that the venturi created vacuum was strong enough to lift the fuel up from the tank when the drill was driving the motor, but when the drill was taken away the venturi created vacuum wasn't strong enough to keep the 3/16" steel ball off the seat AND suck the fuel up. I have taken the 3/16" steel ball out and substituted a 1/8" diameter steel ball--and yes, I give  the 1/8" ball a whack with the hammer to "seat" it in the end of the tube, then discarded that ball and put in a new one. Loctite on the two sections of valve is drying as we speak, and in half an hour we will try that lower tank again.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 19, 2019, 10:30:53 PM
 Update--Engine now runs like a fiend on gas from the lower tank. What did I change?--I took the 3/16" check ball out and put in a 1/8" steel ball. If I shut off the engine, the fuel drains past my home made check valve and runs back down into the tank. This says a lot for my diagnostic skills but gives me very poor marks as a check valve maker. Conclusion--there wasn't enough vacuum to lift a 3/16" ball but there is enough to lift a 1/8" ball. Now all I have to do is figure out how to make a check valve that works. In fairness to myself, I modified the existing 3/16 ball check valve to accept the 1/8" ball. The ball seat may have been a bit screwball because of this. I will try one more time to make a check valve that actually works with a 1/8" steel ball.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/8452/2F7QKr.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: crueby on January 19, 2019, 10:45:59 PM
Even with valve work to do, you have the cause identified, excellent!




You need to figure out how to make 3/16" ping pong balls... Hmmm, are there small plastic bearing balls in a plastic that is fuel safe? I remember plastic balls used in sailboat track, but don't know what its made of.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 19, 2019, 11:07:53 PM
It's been a long day. I'm going to do this one more time and Loctite it so it can set up overnight.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/679/m3bakb.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Jasonb on January 20, 2019, 07:11:44 AM
Brian, Can't see it on your drawing but the hole that the ball is seated into should be reamed, bored or cut with a D bit. The reason is that a drill won't produce a perfectly round hole so you can get tiny gaps even if seating it with a hammer.

Also usual to have the hole more than half the dia of the ball, 3/32"  would allow the ball to settle down into the hole easier
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: sbwhart on January 20, 2019, 09:06:05 AM
I take it that the low tank has plenty of ventilation to avoid forming a vacuum in it that would suck the fuel back

Stew
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 20, 2019, 03:21:03 PM
All of my gas tanks have a 1 mm hole thru the screw on brass filler top.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 20, 2019, 03:57:40 PM
There is great joy in Mudville (Casey at the bat)--The newest and latest anti-flowback valve that I built yesterday evening at the end of the day works. The engine starts and runs well on the tank mounted in the base, and when I shut the engine off the fuel in the fuel line does not run back into the tank. This is what I have been trying to achieve.---Brian
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on January 20, 2019, 04:31:35 PM
Hello Brian,

 :ThumbsUp: :praise2: :cheers:

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 20, 2019, 07:26:23 PM
My engine is right on the ragged edge of hitting and missing. I don't want to gas myself, so I'm setting in my office with the door open to outside. I'm about to quit because there isn't much to choose between gassing yourself to death and freezing to death. I have things adjusted so that at a specific rpm the governor arm tips and prevents the exhaust valve from closing. The engine slows down, and the governor doesn't tip the other way soon enough and the engine just dies. OR--I have the adjustments set so that the governor arm disengages freely, but then it doesn't want to tip down and hold the exhaust valve open. I have had it hitting and missing beautifully if I operate the governor lever by hand. I think it is simply a matter of refinement now.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: crueby on January 20, 2019, 09:02:48 PM
Brian, glad to hear it is coming together well!

For running it inside, if there is a window nearby couldn't you make up a exhaust tube like they use in garages, length of flex tube (large diameter) with a fitting to go over the exhaust pipe end, and at the other end go through a hole in a rectangular piece of wood that you can close the window sash down on? Could even put a muffin fan in the end of the tube at the window. Maybe use flexible clothes drier pipe.

Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Art K on January 20, 2019, 09:08:12 PM
Brian,
That sounds like a multiple choice question A:fumigation B: freeze or C:wait Sounds like it wont be long till you have it running properly.
Art
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 20, 2019, 09:59:48 PM
Chris--I'm not close enough to a window to make it feasible. I could probably get away with a 16 foot length of garden hose.  It is super cold today, should get a bit milder towards the middle of the week.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 21, 2019, 12:23:29 AM
Time for a summary. The engine does start and run very well. This always gives me a complete thrill every times it happens. Yes, it does suck up gas from the tank in the base without any trouble. My initial problems with this was using a carburetor with too large a bore. The air doesn't flow fast enough thru a large bore carburetor to create sufficient venturi effect, and you don't have enough vacuum to lift the fuel.  When I went to a smaller bore carburetor, that improved the vacuum, and it sucks up fuel with no trouble.  The anti backflow valve gave me some problems, mainly because the 3/16" ball I was using was too heavy. When built with the smaller 1/8" ball as in the second drawing I posted, it performs well to keep all of the fuel from draining back into the tank when the engine stops. The carburetor is intended to be used with a hit and miss governor system, and consequently has no throttle plate. When ran without the governor hooked up, the engine runs fast enough to be rather frightening, and the only way to slow it down is to open the needle valve in the carburetor to the point where it is running too rich, however it does slow things down a bit. The flywheels are very heavy at 6" diameter and 1" wide, however that doesn't really affect an engine which has no acceleration curve and runs at a constant speed. The engine has "loosened up" a lot with all of the running it has been doing. As in all of my other i.c. engines with steel valves and brass seats, the compression has improved remarkably after being ran for a while. I am using one 1/16" Viton ring on the piston, in a groove .093" wide x 0.060" deep. The face cam seems to be a success. I had never built a face cam before, and my thanks go out to George Britnell and to Jason for help with the design. My next step will be to tame the hit and miss function so that it operates smoothly.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/6803/KzKm2Q.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Craig DeShong on January 21, 2019, 12:42:28 AM
Great progress Brian.  I'm  :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: rudydubya on January 21, 2019, 06:38:28 AM
I've been following along quietly since you started, Brian.  Nice work.  Looking forward to seeing it hit and miss.

Regards,
Rudy
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 21, 2019, 05:10:17 PM
Still in set up mode here, trying to get the hit and miss action sorted out. I changed from a shcs to a piece of 1/2" dia. cold rolled round and milled a notch in the rocker arm.
M1AEN-1sQm0
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 21, 2019, 07:43:33 PM
I've worked enough today. I can not find that sweet spot for the hit and miss action. I believe I have tried every combination of spring pressure on both ends of the governor pivot, have added weights, have taken away weights, and that bit of action seen in the last video was about the best hit and miss action I've had.  I may have to make a design change to something, but right at the moment I'm not sure what. One thing that I've seen, and seen repeatedly, is that the action of the rocker arm is so fast that the portion of governor which is supposed to interact with the rocker arm to hold the exhaust valve open doesn't have a chance to get in where it has to be to stop the rocker arm.--Hope you understood that!!! You can see a good example of what I am talking about in the last 10 or 15 seconds of the video. I have to think on this for a while.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 21, 2019, 08:36:18 PM
Bear with me folks.--Thinking out loud here. When the engine is running like it did in the last 10 or 15 seconds of the video, and the latch won't engage, if I touch the end of the governor arm very lightly, the latch will engage. It seems to need a little more force than the flyweights provide to make it engage. The way to fix that is to either run the engine faster or to make the governor weights a little heavier. I don't have much control on how fast the engine runs. Without the governor in place it goes so damned fast its rather terrifying. The engine speed is totally a function of the governor. HOWEVER---I can make the governor weights heavier. If I do, the governor will provide more force to make the latch engage every time the engine speed starts to pick up. The other end of the stick, is that the latch has to disengage before the engine slows down so much that it dies out. At low speed such as near the end of a "miss cycle" the governor weights aren't having much effect on the rocking governor arm. The compression spring on the other side of the governor arm pivot provides the force required to disengage the latch and return the governor balls closer to the stem post, and enter the "Hit cycle" again. The simplest design change I can make right now is to add some weight to the governor arms. I will make the added weight removeable so that if that doesn't work I can return things to what they were.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/8824/0aZhU9.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: coulsea on January 21, 2019, 10:55:02 PM
I have not built a hit and miss engine yet but I have thought about it a lot. My last ic took a while to get running properly because things change as it runs in, it now start with a flick of the flywheel and can go down to 600 revs but if I had the added complication of hit and miss I would probably still be working on it. my conclusion at this stage is that I would not attempt the hit and miss part until the engine was run in and consistent with a throttle carb and then add the hit and miss and when that was all working maybe replace the carb with a non throttle one. I wonder if you have tuned your engine to run at higher revs than your governor can handle. if you could put a throttle between your carb and the intake to slow it down a bit and then adjust your governor springs and mixture to suit the lower revs. that would solve the problem of the governor not having time to engage.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 21, 2019, 11:40:27 PM
Coulsea--every new engine is a mystery to be solved. Since I am using a Viton ring on the piston, there is very little to "wear in" there. The steel valves and brass valve seats wear in completely after a half hour of running, and the compression increases  incredibly. The friction of crankshaft and con rod and side-shaft does wear in in about an hours running. As far as tuning the engine to run at higher or lower speeds--there is very little to tune on an engine like this. Ignition timing, exhaust valve timing, and carburetor needle jet adjustment. The intake valve is "atmospheric" and uses no cam, only engine vacuum. Again, remember that the speed of a hit and miss engine is not governed by the carburetor. It is governed by the governor. Any hit and miss engines I have ever seen will "run away" with crazy high rpm if the governor is disconnected. You are correct that before trying to set up the governor you have to have the engine so it will run well, and keep one hand near the kill switch in case the engine "runs away".
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 21, 2019, 11:46:00 PM
And this is the right point in a build to trot out my favourite governor story.
I grew up in the kinder, gentler, far more poverty stricken world of the 1950's. I have a firm belief that it wasn't necessity that was the mother of invention---poverty was. The lack of money created a world of tinkerers and inventors, simply because there was no money to buy the proper tool or machine. An older friend of mine, named Leonard had built a portable buzz saw for cutting firewood. This was basically a 48" diameter circular saw mounted on the chassis of a model A Ford, circa 1930 or 1931. The lengths of wood were lifted onto a tilting carriage, and the carriage was tilted into the saw to cut up lengths of firewood. The saw was driven by a flat belt and pulley arrangement that came from the rear of the old Fords transmission. Now, Leonard had a problem----The old 4 cylinder Ford engine had babbit bearings, so it did not take kindly to prolonged high speed revving. However, if someone didn't open the throttle and give it some gas when the log engaged the saw, the engine would stall. Leonard was a veteran tinkerer, and somehow come into the possession of a set of flyball governors off an old steam engine. He mounted them with a belt drive from the Ford engine, and hooked them up to the carburetor with a system of levers and pulleys. The theory was quite simple---under no load conditions the old Ford would set there idling, but as soon as the log engaged the buzz saw, the rpm's would drop off, and the flyball governors would open the throttle automatically. This was a perfectly good working theory!!! The problem was that Leonard somehow got one of his lever arrangements bass ackwards. When the last bolt was tightened, and the last brace welded in place, Leonard went to test his creation. He started the Ford---that part worked perfect. As soon as it started however, the flyballs began to fly outward from centrifugal force, and the farther out they flew, the more the lever mechanism opened the throttle. The engine went from zero to a zillion rpm's in the blink of an eye. Leonard leaped from the drivers seat and raced around the car to pull off the coil wire and shut down the engine---and at the same time the flyball governor self-destructed (it too was by then doing a zillion rpm's). One of the steel balls flew  and hit poor Leonard directly in the kneecap and broke it into a dozen pieces--then the old Ford engine self-destructed in a scream of tortured babbit bearings and shattered castings!! Leonard eventually recovered, though he walked with a limp ever afterwards. We all survived the 1950's, but it certainly was a time that gave rise to a lot of interesting stories.---Brian.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Art K on January 22, 2019, 01:07:25 AM
And you Brian are full of these stories, and they are always worth hearing. You do realize that if the added weight doesn't work and you take them off the flyweights will be that much lighter, just stating the obvious. But you are probably right and that will do the trick.
Art
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 22, 2019, 01:14:26 AM
Art--I'm glad you said it was stories that I am full of----Governors are always fun and exciting and frustrating. To my knowledge, there is no "tried and true" formula for a governor. This is "Try it and see if it works" engineering at it's very finest. If I get it working to my satisfaction, I'm going to sell plans to this engine. If I don't get it to work, at least I have built a face cam that works, which is something I've never built before.---Brian
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 23, 2019, 09:45:07 PM
Ever since Photobucket got all crazy a year or so ago I have used a paid subscription to Image Shack. Image Shack has now quit working for me and I can not reach anybody at their head office in California to help me to get it working again. I have been very happy with Image Shack up until now.---Brian
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 24, 2019, 07:20:15 PM
No joy with the hit and miss action. The engine itself runs great, but I am afraid I am going to have to go for a redesign of the hit and miss mechanism. I will post this YouTube link, and then I probably won't post anymore on this engine until I have sorted out the hitting and missing. For some reason my Image Shack service has stopped working and I can't find anyone there to help get things sorted out, so I have lost my ability to post still pictures. Gahhhhhh
XQqeZNoeBC8
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 25, 2019, 03:18:10 PM
I may have solved my problems with Image Shack. This picture (if it shows up) shows that the weights added to my governor weights were not as shown in the 3D model I posted. I decided to mount the weights to the underside of the existing weights instead. They are less apt to hit the side of the cooling water tower when added like this.---Brian
(https://imageshack.com/i/pl7sCsGij)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Roger B on January 25, 2019, 03:48:38 PM
The engine looks good in the video but I just see a white cross on a black background for the image  :(
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: crueby on January 25, 2019, 04:05:31 PM
Image shows fine here.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 25, 2019, 04:31:39 PM
For the past two weeks something has been fishy with the images. Some folks see them, some don't. For 2 or 3 days I tried to contact Image Shack to complain, but there is no way to contact them directly. My account is a paid account, so it should work fine all the time. Last night I thought "Maybe if I just log out then log back in to Image shack that will do something, and it did. I can now post pictures again. I really don't know whats going on.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Art K on January 25, 2019, 06:04:43 PM
Brian,
Talk about fishy, a few weeks ago I was looking at photos from my Val build to reference, and they all had this sandy grainy gray and white mark in the corner saying something like "photo provided by photobucket". This was after I had gone through and replaced each photo to the Lister engine forum photo gallery... :thinking: Its all back to normal now... :headscratch:
Art
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: gbritnell on January 25, 2019, 06:35:10 PM
Brian,
I think the problem you're having is the flyweights on the governor don't produce enough power to overcome the spring setup that you're using.
Here's what I would do. Unbolt the rod or remove the spark plug so the engine will turn over freely. Using an electric drill or some other means spin the engine at approximately the desired operating speed. Start with a very light spring and see how it reacts to the rpm of the engine. If the governor locks out the rocker arm immediately try a little heavier spring. Repeat until the latch out lever operates where you want it to.
I have found that it doesn't take much rpm to operate  the conventional weights on a flywheel governor. Even with that setup it takes some experimenting to come up with the right combination for the desired running and coasting speed.
With a conventional type governor you actually have 2 sets of springs to control the engine, the springs on the governor weights and one on an adjustment screw to override the governor weight action. On yours you're trying to control the engine with one spring and that can become a touchy proposition.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 25, 2019, 07:05:53 PM
George--I was hoping you would stop by.  Trying to do this with one spring just isn't working out for me. I need the current spring to be weak enough for the governor weights to overcome it and lock out the exhaust valve, but I also need it to be strong enough to disengage the governors and let the engine "Pick up" again before it just slows down and dies out. I have tried for three days to find the balance point, but it isn't happening.---Brian
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 26, 2019, 12:18:48 AM
I spent most of today fighting the good fight. By the end of the day, I had achieved the closest to hitting and missing that I have seen since building the engine. I think that my flywheels need to be trimmed of some weight, and will do that tomorrow.---Brian
m9XcRicqzRk
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: b.lindsey on January 26, 2019, 04:20:36 PM
That is sounding good Brian. The hit and miss is there definitely.

Bill
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 26, 2019, 10:29:46 PM
So---Here we are, hitting and missing with both flywheels on. I set the flywheels up in my lathe and turned 1/8" material from both sides to lighten them. Building the engine and getting it to run consistently was the easy part. Getting the hit and miss to work consistently has driven me to -----poetry??
What is better than Spring, and a maidens kisses
---When your hit and miss engine hitses and misses!!!
75BbYl3nJHA
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: b.lindsey on January 26, 2019, 10:48:01 PM
I am getting that the video is unavailable Brian.

Bill
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 27, 2019, 12:33:43 AM
Okay-I went in and tweaked the viewability of the video. Try it now and let me know if you can see it please.---Brian
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: 10KPete on January 27, 2019, 12:39:44 AM
 :whoohoo:

It sounds really good, Brian! What's next, put a load on it. Like rub a stick on a flywheel and see that the governor picks it up...

 :cheers:

Pete

Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: crueby on January 27, 2019, 12:47:18 AM
Excellent!!
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 27, 2019, 12:51:47 AM
Hi Pete--Glad to hear from you. I've had quite a struggle with the hit and miss mechanism to get it to this stage. The governor itself works amazingly well. The problems I have had were more to do with how the governor "shakes hands" with the engine. The engine itself was relatively straightforward, for a "first of". I have a bit of tidy up work to do on the engineering drawings and then I will be selling drawing packages of the entire engine.  The next person to build this engine won't have to do a lot of the "trial and error" stuff that I have sorted out---Brian.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: 10KPete on January 27, 2019, 06:34:16 AM
I seem to recall that there was a British ME author very famous way back when. It seems he put out a lot of nice designs for the magazines and was held in high regard and still is with many.

The kicker is that he never built many of his designs and so over the years there are still troubles found by model engineers.

You've designed it. You've built it. You've tweaked it. You've run it.

I have no doubt that anyone that can execute the design can have a running engine.

 :cheers:

Pete
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 27, 2019, 03:55:16 PM
If anyone would like a complete set of engineering drawings to build this engine with it's governor, I charge $25 Canadian funds for the total package. You can send it to my Paypal account  where I am registered under brupnow@rogers.com  and please specify which engine you want plans for. This is not an engine for first time builders. I would say that to build this engine you should have at least two or three other successful builds of i.c. engines completed. It is not a particularly cheap engine to build either, because of the two sets of gears involved. The drawings are in inch measurements and will not be offered in metric. You will need both a lathe and a mill to build this engine. There are approximately 50 drawings. At present, I do not know of anyone else in the world offering drawing packages for a side shaft hit and miss engine made totally from bar stock, no castings.--Brian Rupnow
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 27, 2019, 10:36:34 PM
All of the drawings have been updated and saved as pdf files. I have never seen a governor like this before, but it works and that's what matters. It is mind bending to get your head around it. There is a total of 60 drawing sheets.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/4492/Fso8p6.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Art K on January 28, 2019, 02:27:12 AM
Brian,
Your engine looks and sounds great. I think you have finally sorted out the governor. Now you just need to attach it to the saw rig you made to see how it runs under load. Just out of curiosity, do you have some connection with Jay Leno's garage and his Stutz Bearcat episode? cause after watching both videos that was the next video up. :mischief: more likely that I watched the 1913 Mercer one yesterday.
Art
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 28, 2019, 02:51:40 PM
No connection with Jay Leno, but I do wish I had his car and engine collection.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 28, 2019, 11:29:24 PM
I have thought long and hard about how happy I am with this engine, and I'm not terribly impressed---yet. I am going to make a few changes. The engine and the governor remain essentially unchanged, however the face cam and the cylinder head are going to change radically. Craig Deshong would quickly recognize what's going on here.---
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/4038/gg8q16.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Craig DeShong on January 28, 2019, 11:42:16 PM
Running great now Brian, you must be very happy  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp:


From up above, yes I do.  And you've also designed a way to get to the valves without a design that requires you make them in parts and assemble them in the head. :pinkelephant:
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Art K on January 29, 2019, 01:50:47 AM
I don't get it, I think I'll wait for the movie.
Art
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 29, 2019, 02:32:30 AM
Art--You will like it. I have designed a new and different cylinder head to allow use of a more conventional cam set up.---Brian
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 29, 2019, 07:45:33 PM
I am going to change directions now. Although the engine ran, and ran very well after I muddled through the carburetor and anti backflow valve issues, I'm simply not satisfied with the hit and miss action from the engine in its current state. I am going back to a much more conventional cam shape which will act on the exhaust valve thru the rocker arm.  The basic engine remains unchanged, and 95% of the governor remains the same. The changes will mainly be in the cylinder head, and the fact that the valve stems now set vertically and extend thru the underside of the cylinder head. I have seen this set-up on another hit and miss engine where it worked very well.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/5199/3bIGDV.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Craig DeShong on January 30, 2019, 12:45:58 AM
Art

Go back to the thread on my Myers build and look at the crazy  :hammerbash: way they did the valves and you will.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 30, 2019, 02:02:24 AM
I've even been able to find a spot for the carburetor. The carburetor sets much lower than it did on the first go-round, but it is still above the top of the gas tank. I might have to put an extension on the carburetor needle valve to keep my fingers away from the revolving cam. Tomorrow I will make the new cylinder head. I can re-use the valves, valve cages, valve springs, spring retainers, and exhaust pipe and carburetor.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/3834/sMdQw5.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 30, 2019, 04:08:58 PM
So--If you were wondering what I'm doing today---this is it.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/2467/VJuf4v.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 30, 2019, 07:23:57 PM
People always like to see "in process" shots. I checked my stock this morning and all of my 1" aluminum was about 0.015" undersize, but I did find a bar of 3 x 1 1/4" stock. I cut out a piece on my bandsaw, then squared it up and milled it to 1" thick. The bolt pattern was laid out, drilled, and counterbored for #6 SHCS. Since I had set the part up in my mill vice and zeroed on the sparkplug (which is also the center of the cylinder)I drilled the hole for an M10 sparkplug. I then flipped the part over and plunged 0.7" with a 1" diameter endmill, then set up my boring head to put in the 1.181" diameter counterbore.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/549/lbs3PA.jpg)
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/6836/lEscBT.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: gbritnell on January 30, 2019, 11:09:20 PM
HI Brian,
I guess I'm kind of at a loss here! After all the work you put in on the first side shaft version, design, drawings and experimentation and then ultimately getting it to run well, what is the reason for almost a complete redesign of the engine?
gbritnell
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 30, 2019, 11:33:03 PM
George--Part of it is that I don't really have a lot else to do. I don't have much "real work" right now, I'm not a television person, and I've read books until I'm all read out. I did confirm that I can successfully build a face cam. That was a first for me. Even with all the dialing and tuning and adjusting I did to that engine, it wasn't consistent enough for me.  There is actually very little that changes on the engine.  Most of the changes will effect only the cylinder head and rocker arm. I haven't lost anything. I will save that cylinder head for some future project. I enjoy doing this, and pushing my limits out a little farther in terms of what I can do.---Brian
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Art K on January 31, 2019, 02:28:55 AM
George,
I think what he's saying is that he's bored and can't sit still.  :noidea:
Art
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on January 31, 2019, 04:38:35 PM
I love my rotary table. It lets me do things that none of my other machines can do.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/6849/CEUYhx.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: crueby on January 31, 2019, 05:51:32 PM
Oh yes, the rotary table makes SO many jobs possible!

 :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on February 01, 2019, 12:30:36 AM
Progress today on the new cylinder head design. It bolts on where it is supposed to. After mounting it I seen that there was potential for interference between the governor weights and the corner. Fortunately there is a lot of material in the corners, so I was able to remove some material. I may have to take a bit out of the water reservoir for clearance as well, but I will take a "wait and see" attitude with that.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/6412/b9vv68.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: crueby on February 01, 2019, 12:34:58 AM
If you took off the same shape on the other corner, it would look like there is a venturi chamber or something under it.


 :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: 10KPete on February 01, 2019, 04:29:28 AM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

 :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Pete
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Roger B on February 01, 2019, 07:01:25 AM
An interesting redesign  :ThumbsUp: How are you planning to seal the brass plug that allows access to the valves?
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on February 01, 2019, 01:12:33 PM
An interesting redesign  :ThumbsUp: How are you planning to seal the brass plug that allows access to the valves?
The plugs are bolted to the underside of the bolted cover plate. They are a sliding fit into the holes in the head. The cover plate will have a gasket between it and the cylinder head and the same gasket between it and the end of the plugs.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on February 01, 2019, 03:26:55 PM
Here is a blurry photo (Sorry about that) of the cap plate that bolts onto the top of the cylinder head. The two round dowels attached to the underside of the bar are only in there as "space occupiers". If I don't put them in, it messes with the engine compression ratio.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/7797/ehfnmm.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Roger B on February 01, 2019, 05:24:15 PM
I am confused (not difficult  :old: ) In the drawing you showed an oval opening as was used in this style of engine, but it has now changed to two round plugs? You will then have a flat gasket held between the plugs and the cover plate?
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on February 01, 2019, 06:03:36 PM
Roger--That's the beauty of being the engine designer. If I see something that I want to change as I'm building the part, I can go back and change the drawing. The slot served no real purpose. It was the round ends of the slot that were important, so I just put in the holes. Any drawings I post "while in process" are very liable to change as I make the part. I always change the drawing when I change the part to avoid selling a set of plans which have "out of date" drawings in the package.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on February 01, 2019, 06:03:46 PM
That's it for today. Valve cages are finished and installed with press fit and Loctite. One cage was about .00025 oversize, which was where I wanted it to be. The other came out right "size on size" so I knurled the outside diameter to get a press fit. Knurling increases the o.d. by up to .005". In the picture you can see the 7/16" dowels that are in there basically to take up space. They are bolted to the brass top plate.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/6563/4uqbnn.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Roger B on February 01, 2019, 07:00:38 PM
Okay  :) I also tend to make it up as I go along  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp:  :wine1:
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on February 01, 2019, 09:10:29 PM
Roger--When I design something, I use the absolute best idea I have ever had, giving consideration to shape, function, and machinability. As soon as I begin making the part, or sometimes after making it, I see ways that it could have been improved. It would be wonderful if I had these new ideas in the first place, but the world doesn't work that way.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on February 02, 2019, 05:18:19 PM
The new cylinder head is finished and bolted in place. As you can see, the valve stems now exit through the bottom of the head and the exhaust pipe sticks out sideways. The bolt on brass cap provided me with a way to insert the valves and lap the valve cages which were pressed in from the opposite side. I toyed with two or three different places to have the carburetor mounted, and settled for the one shown because I didn't want to cover any of the head bolts. I will have to make sure I have a good silicone boot on that sparkplug, or adjusting the needle valve on the carb could be a "shocking" experience. Tomorrow I will make the new cam and rocker arm.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/7099/H787H8.jpg)
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/124/q9SClx.jpg)
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/3041/bkrY8p.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: 10KPete on February 02, 2019, 08:22:55 PM
Very interesting, Brian. Your 'changes' are cool to watch as they develop.

Rotate the carb 90*...

Pete
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Doc on February 02, 2019, 08:54:33 PM
Roger--When I design something, I use the absolute best idea I have ever had, giving consideration to shape, function, and machinability. As soon as I begin making the part, or sometimes after making it, I see ways that it could have been improved. It would be wonderful if I had these new ideas in the first place, but the world doesn't work that way.

I once had a supervisor that would say (after turning in a tool design) now go back and do it again he would want 3 versions and guess what some times the first was the one we went with and some times the 3rd. I consider him as the best supervisor I ever had. Sure did like him as a boss if he would have still been there I wouldn't have retired. But he moved on and actually retired about a year before I did.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on February 02, 2019, 11:43:13 PM
The rocker arm for this new head design is going to be "interesting". Not a real challenge as far as making the part--I will make it in two pieces bolted together. It is however, a very different shape!!
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/7159/YTtipw.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on February 03, 2019, 03:35:59 PM
Nothing here for you experienced guys, but a "newbee' is asking about the cam making process. First picture shows a piece of 1 1/4" material in the lathe, turned to the two diameters which will be on the cam, and drilled and reamed to .375". Next picture shows piece parted off to finished length. Next picture shows the layout lines where I am going to remove material.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/8632/mdV7nj.jpg)
(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/570/jcIe36.jpg)
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/3899/Wjc08z.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on February 03, 2019, 03:37:16 PM
First picture shows most excess material milled away leaving 3 "points". Next picture shows two of the "points" removed on my stationary belt sander, and third picture shows the finished cam in the position it is going to set in the engine.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/6114/pTgngw.jpg)
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/2366/29Akbk.jpg)
(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/6164/S455Tq.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on February 03, 2019, 03:43:37 PM
This is the drawing I was working from. Remember--If the cam follower is a round bearing you can get away with a straight sided cam like this. If however you have a flat tappet then the sides or "flanks" of the cam should be curved, and that makes the cam much more complex and difficult to machine.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/2933/gKsl8c.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on February 04, 2019, 11:31:45 PM
I spent the whole day making itsy bitsy pieces. Not the shoulder bolt. I bought it. Not the piece of 3/8" rod, but I did use it as a mandrel to turn the strange looking rocker arm end on. The other part of the rocker arm which is covered with purple layout dye got to this stage before I realized I was working from an out of date drawing. I may be able to make a save there, I'm not sure yet. The L shaped piece of 1/4" steel plate will get welded to the sideshaft support block to replace the one which is currently there. There is something downright sinful about working so damned hard for a whole day and only making three pieces, one of which may be wrong.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/431/VizDne.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Art K on February 05, 2019, 03:08:43 AM
Brian,
Is that sort of like ordering shim washers for a project and then realizing when they come in that they are OBVIOUSLY the wrong ones. And the OD of the ones I got were about the size of the ID of the ones needed?
Art
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: gbritnell on February 05, 2019, 12:37:34 PM
Brian,
Several posts back you mentioned about getting zapped while adjusting the carb with the needle valve in that position. Those type of carbs work at any angle so why not just rotate it to a better position?
gbritnell
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on February 05, 2019, 01:47:31 PM
George--I may do that. I want to get everything assembled and then I will add in whatever tweaks are necessary to preserve life and limb. i hate those unexpected "shock treatments". :rant: :rant:--Brian
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on February 05, 2019, 03:07:38 PM
Sometimes ya just gotta do what ya gotta do. My mill has amazing headroom, and this set-up used every inch of it. This was drilling, reaming, and threading the sideplate for a 3/8" shoulder bolt on which the new rocker arm will rock.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/201/Ob72mk.jpg)
(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/1746/tKuPKm.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on February 05, 2019, 05:20:12 PM
Check this out. This is so cool!!! I have replaced the face cam with a more conventionally shaped cam, and added a really strange rocker arm. I love it when the real parts operate just like my cad program said they would. There was nothing wrong with the face cam I had on the engine originally, but there were problems involving consistent latching of the exhaust valve lockout mechanism from the governor. In order to change this (and hopefully improve it), I had to change the style of cam I was using.
nEiYlP18yok
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on February 05, 2019, 06:06:36 PM
Hello Brian,

I am with you, it is cool and some more of your neat engineering. :ThumbsUp:

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: crueby on February 05, 2019, 06:07:26 PM
Isn't it great when the planning works out!   :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Art K on February 06, 2019, 02:55:12 AM
Just like the drawing says. :ThumbsUp:
Art
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on February 06, 2019, 07:06:41 PM
So---Here we are again. It looks almost the same as it did the last time around, but there are changes. The face cam is gone, replaced by a conventionally shaped cam, and my wonderful rocker arm as seen in the previous video. The head is completely changed, and the brass tilting part of the governor arm has had the pivot moved around to the other side of the stem post. All I have to do now is make my new lockout arm and we'll try this rodeo again!!
(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/1092/tOmr00.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Craig DeShong on February 07, 2019, 08:02:18 PM
Brian,
Several posts back you mentioned about getting zapped while adjusting the carb with the needle valve in that position. Those type of carbs work at any angle so why not just rotate it to a better position?
gbritnell

Aw George, what's the fun in that?   :lolb:

Look'in good Brian. 

Btw- what CAD system are you using?  You may see why I ask later.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on February 07, 2019, 09:06:18 PM
Craig---I use Solidworks 2015 version. I don't pay the $1800 a year for maintenance and license anymore, because I don't do enough "real work" to make it worthwhile.---Brian
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on February 07, 2019, 09:48:35 PM
The more I thought about how close that carburetor was to the sparkplug, the more it bothered me. It isn't the shock that bothers me so much--It's where you move your hand to involuntarily when you get the shock. I have never been hurt by any of my engines so far, but there are a lot of things going on up at the front of this engine. I don't want to get a shock, jerk away from it, and feed my fingers into the meatgrinder. The engine has been retimed, both valve timing and ignition timing. It is ready to go except for the small manifold that bolts onto the engine to channel gasoline from the gas tank up to the carburetor. I also have to incorporate my anti-backflow valve into the manifold.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/692/HjVIoO.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on February 08, 2019, 12:01:09 AM
Here is an interesting fact. The face cam I made for this engine had all of the action imparted to the valve in a 90 degree segment. Because of the 1:2 ratio between the crankshaft and camshaft, that means that all of the valve movement occurred in 180 degrees. The engine ran, and seemed to run relatively well. The new cam, which is patterned after the Odds and Ends hit and miss engine by Philip Duclos has 128 degrees of cam influence, which results in a whopping 256 degrees of crankshaft rotation. Since there are only 180 degrees of crankshaft rotation as the piston moves from bottom dead center to top dead center on the exhaust stroke, that means that the remaining 76 degrees has to be used up before and after the piston is at bottom dead center and then at top dead center. This is normal on internal combustion engines, and is highly theoretical, because when you take the clearance between the rocker arm and the end of the valve stem into consideration, the "lead" and "lag"  of the valve action isn't as much as the theoretical numbers would have you believe. Hit and miss engines are not a high revving engine, so it probably won't make as big a difference, but it will be interesting to see.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/2012/CBsCab.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: gbritnell on February 08, 2019, 11:29:13 AM
HI Brian,
Either your numbers or your explanation are a bit confusing! How can you have 128 degrees of 'cam' influence but 256 degrees of 'valve' influence?
gbritnell
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on February 08, 2019, 01:59:49 PM
George--Because of the 1:2 ratio between the crankshaft and the camshaft. When I say "cam influence" I mean the cams direct influence on the rocker arm. Cam moves at half the speed of the crankshaft. Consequently, when cam moves thru 128 degrees of rotation, the crankshaft moves thru 256 degrees of rotation.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: gbritnell on February 08, 2019, 03:40:56 PM
It's just in your original explanation you stated that 256 degrees of influence on the valve when you should have said crank degrees.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on February 08, 2019, 03:46:05 PM
Okay--I fixed it.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: gbritnell on February 08, 2019, 07:46:51 PM
Brian,
I just looked at your cam lobe drawing and read all the valve event numbers. Being as hit and miss engines rely solely on the intake stroke to open the intake valve the normal timing would be to have the exhaust valve close at TDC or no more than 15 degrees crank rotation past TDC, 7-1/2 degrees camshaft. With your exhaust closing so late you won't be getting a good cylinder fill. On a conventional engine that runs at high rpm's you could get away with a lot of overlap, aiding cylinder scavenging, but I'm afraid it will be detrimental to a hit and miss type. Just my 2 cents worth.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on February 08, 2019, 09:29:19 PM
George--I will try it and see what happens. The cam is not hardened, and is not difficult to remake if I have to. I'm deeply into "Try it and see" mode.---Brian
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on February 08, 2019, 09:29:30 PM
Today I made the last piece for this engine, and what a snaky piece it it!!! This is the manifold that connects to the base of the cooling reservoir and forms a leakproof seal with the extended tube from the gas tank, and channels fuel through it's many galleries to the anti backflow valve and then to the carburetor. There will be a piece of transparent fuel line connecting the anti-backflow fitting to the carburetor, which allows me to see what's going on with the fuel. Right now the piece has half a dozen brass plugs held in place with J.B. weld, and after it sets up overnight I will add it to the machine and see if it runs.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/3827/piSAr3.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on February 09, 2019, 07:47:03 PM
Good news--Engine is firing consistently when spun by drill, which eases my mind somewhat about having enough compression to fire with the new head on. (The new head has a larger combustion chamber than the old head had.) Since I also had to make new valve cages for the new cylinder head, (couldn't re-use the old ones) I was concerned about the valves sealing but it seems they are going to seal all right. --The old valves were installed and lapped into the new seats through that access hatch in the top of the cylinder head. Flywheels will bounce back when spun by hand against compression. I have hurt my back, so I'm trying not to do too much for a few days, but I had to try this new configuration out to see what was going to happen. When I had the cylinder head off, I measured the distance from the head of the piston to the end of the cylinder at top dead center, and I have about 0.176" there. If I have to, I can add that much to the top of the piston to bring the compression ratio higher. This is probably all for today, but it's looking quite good so far.---Brian
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/5572/BXf8o4.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on February 09, 2019, 09:56:28 PM
George Britnell--I have studied on this cam profile business, and again, as usual, I believe you are correct. Without getting into a lot of technical poop, I can re-machine the cam I already have to a profile more in line with what you have said.  To change the profile any more than what I am showing would mean setting up to cut a completely new cam, and I don't really want to do that. (Not yet, anyways). The new profile shown here will let me begin opening the exhaust valve 40 degrees before bottom dead center and close exactly at top dead center, or to begin opening the valve 30 degrees before bottom dead center and close 10 degrees after top dead center. Again, this is somewhat theoretical, because it doesn't take the valve lash into account, but it is much closer to the "ideal" than what I currently have.---Brian
(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/4166/jveQUD.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: 10KPete on February 09, 2019, 11:38:48 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

 :popcorn: :popcorn:

 :cheers:

Pete
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on February 10, 2019, 01:02:40 AM
I did alter the cam profile this afternoon, on the advice of George Britnell. George is very knowledgeable about design and construction of small engines. I have the engine firing consistently, but not quite to the point where it will take off and run on it's own without the variable speed drill I use as a starter. I have spark, I have fuel, and I have the ignition and valve timing correct. The two things left which would cause the engine to not start are #1--Too much friction as the engine is still quite "stiff" because it is new, and #2-there is a lot more room inside the cylinder head now, which gives lower compression than in the previous design. I have room to add 0.200" to the end of the piston to increase the overall compression, and since that is the easiest thing to do I may do that tomorrow. as far as "stiffness" of the engine, I can always oil everything up good and then drive the engine with a v-belt from my 1/2 HP. electric motor for a couple of hours.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Art K on February 10, 2019, 03:36:39 AM
Brian,
With your cad you should be able to figure out fairly easily what your compression ratio is. I was able to use the volume on Alibre to determine it's c/r at 7:1. I would imagine with the large circular chamber in the center it dropped it quite a bit. After all it ran quite well before the head switch.
Art
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: gbritnell on February 10, 2019, 12:54:40 PM
Hi Brian,
Art is correct. I have used a lot of CAD programs over the years but never had an occasion to use the volumes part of measuring in Solidworks, that I use now. When I was adjusting tne CR on my flathead engine discovered that function. You can draw any kind of odd-ball shape and select the model and the function and voila, volume!
I'm sure you know from you hot-rodding endeavors that to calculate CR you add the volume of the cylinder at TDC + the volume of the combustion chamber and divide that into the total volume, piston at BDC + combustion chamber and that will give you the CR of the engine.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on February 10, 2019, 04:14:32 PM
So--If we want the engine compression to come up higher, we can make the cavity in the cylinder head smaller---OR--we can make the piston longer. In my situation it was much easier to make the piston longer. Using information from my CAD system, I determined how much longer it could be, and what diameter it had to have. The diameter had to be a tiny bit smaller than the actual piston size, because the piston was already designed and lapped as a "precision fit" in the cylinder. I assembled the lengthened piston to the rod and the rod to the crankshaft and turned the engine over by hand to be sure nothing interfered.  Nothing did, so I pulled it apart again, put a dab of J.B.Quickweld on the threads of each bolt and reassembled the lengthened piston. Now I'm off to get some lunch, and by the time I'm finished eating, everything will be ready to go back together.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/6517/RGPmso.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Craig DeShong on February 11, 2019, 01:09:15 PM
 :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:

Also don't forget to check your timing also Brian.  Where ignition occurs has a huge influence on how well an engine runs.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on February 12, 2019, 03:05:10 PM
I'm not having a lot of luck here. I played all day yesterday, doing all the usual tricks to get a engine started. Valve timing, ignition timing, carburetor settings. I even set the engine up in my main garage and ran it with a 110 volt electric motor for a couple of hours to get rid of any tight spots. No Joy!! Engine fires right up and runs along with the starter drill, but doesn't want to keep going on it's own. I am having an issue with the intake valve seizing open. I have never had that happen before, so I've been theorizing as to why this is happening. I think that there is a flaw in the design of the rocker arm, and that "at speed" the rocker arm which should only move the exhaust valve is being "flung" out so hard by the cam that it is over-travelling and hitting the intake valve. That is my current reasoning, so today I will investigate the rocker arm design. Will also do a bit of research and calculate the engines current compression ratio.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/1419/Tg9nfj.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on February 12, 2019, 05:43:02 PM
I spent the best part of this morning redesigning the rocker arm so it gives a lot more clearance to the intake valve. While I was deeply into the design, I noticed that the length and positioning of the arm which has the cam follower on it was not correct. I'm not certain how that happened, but it did. I will now embark on making a new rocker arm and cam follower arm. S&*t happens!!
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/5215/NrKnhw.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on February 12, 2019, 11:18:49 PM
Here is an interesting model of the cylinder head I have designed and machined. The two holes that extend up to the bolted cap plate are machined into the body of the cylinder head to allow insertion of the valves. In my original design, the two orange colored dowels were simply there to fill up the holes and cut down on the amount of "free space" in the burn chamber. Now that I've had time to play with the engine a bit, the thought occurred to me---"I could cut down even more of the burn chamber space if I extended the dowels  to a point just clear of the valves heads when the valves were open." They would have to be machined on the end to provide clearance for the sparkplug, but that poses no difficulty.---Brian
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/7877/AG9uq4.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on February 13, 2019, 10:59:05 PM
I can't get the engine to run on it's own. I have just about exhausted my bag full of "small engine tricks". The engine fires right up and runs along with the drill while I am cranking it, but slows down and quits as soon as the drill is disconnected. There are only about four things that can affect an engine like this. Ignition timing, valve timing, carburetor adjustment and shape of the cam itself. I have flogged all of these settings right to death, and I still don't have a running engine. It's a shame too, because this is such a neat design. I know that the carb is good, because I took it off one of my other 1" bore hit and miss engines. I have to leave this thing alone for a while now, and hope that I am struck by a new idea.-----Brian
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: gbritnell on February 14, 2019, 12:11:18 AM
Brian,
If I were working on a lawnmower or similar engine and had the symptoms that you describe I would say the poor running is a result of low compression. Not compression ratio but low compression. You reused your piston from a running engine so we can kind of eliminate that and you haven't mentioned any leakage at the head gasket or fittings so that only leaves the valves or something to do with the valves. The only other issue could be ignition timing but I'm sure you've tried all kinds of different settings.
Does the engine 'bounce back' when flipping it over?
gbritnell
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on February 14, 2019, 01:11:40 AM
Yes, it bounces back. Compression is good. The piston fit is very good, and at one point I persuaded myself to put one Viton ring on it. The engine seems to lack power. When you start an engine with a drill, like I commonly do, you can feel it when the engine surges ahead and wants to outrun the drill. My engine doesn't do that. It fires right along with the drill very happily, but I don't feel that surge of power which makes you think that the engine wants to run on it's own. I know it's not a matter of ignition timing, valve timing, nor carburetor. I think I will revisit the cam itself, and make a cam with a longer dwell as I had originally planned on doing, and begin to open the exhaust about 40 degrees before bottom dead center, and have it close right at top dead center. I really like this design, and I don't want to abandon it.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Craig DeShong on February 14, 2019, 05:18:12 PM
Hang in there Brian, I'm sure you'll get it.  Patience usually pays.  I have a friend who built a hot air engine and he is having trouble getting it to run.  He's been trying this and that for a few months now.  When he sounds especially discouraged, I remind him that it took me 2 1/2 YEARS to get my Otto Langen to run, so I tell him he has lots of time yet  :embarassed:

Just hang in there and you'll discover the problem.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: RJH on February 14, 2019, 05:40:34 PM
Would the intake valve spring be to strong? It also has to deal with the weight of the valve to get enough fuel charge in.
   Ralph
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on February 14, 2019, 07:03:03 PM
Since the engine fires quite regularly while being driven by the drill motor, it heats itself up quite rapidly. This morning I got up and machined a different cam, reverting to the first cam I had before George Britnell suggested the one which I have been using. I didn't think it would make any difference, and it didn't. The engine still fires quite merrily along with the drill, but won't take off and run on it's own. I am at the point now where I am seriously thinking of a different head design. A "newbee" on one of the forums I post on suggested threading the outside diameter of the valve cages, fitting the valve, and then screwing the cages with installed valve into the head from the bottom. Something like that could work, and I know that a number of full size hit and miss engines were set up in a similar manner. I believe the problem I am having with my engine stems from having too large a burn chamber in the head. It is the only possible thing I can think of. I'm not exactly new at this business, this is my thirtieth engine. The outside diameter of my current valve cages is 0.394" (10 mm) and I don't think I could comfortably thread them and leave a thick enough wall, but if I do go for a new design they can be made larger.---Or they could be made to fit into a reamed hole in the cylinder head and held there by a retainer with a viton o-ring seal. A conclusion could be made that with a 1" bore, the engine just doesn't have enough power to run a sideshaft set of gears and a second set of gears which runs the governor, but obviously that's not correct because the engine did function quite well when I had the first cylinder head on it.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: John Hill on February 14, 2019, 07:24:44 PM
Brian,  we have an engine with valves at right angles to the bore as in your engine but I cannot find drawings of it however a picture of one may be useful..

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/38/BristolCherub.JPG/800px-BristolCherub.JPG)

It is a Bristol Cherub aero engine.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on February 14, 2019, 07:35:59 PM
Thanks John Hill--I'm not saying I will do this----BUT --If I did make the valve cages and valves and valve springs and keepers two discreet assemblies, and just pressed/Loctited them in from the bottom, I could cut down on a ton of "burn space" in the cylinder head.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/7500/EdECwt.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on February 14, 2019, 10:37:49 PM
Massive calculating and head scratching shows that in order for the new strange cylinder head to have the same cubic inch space as the first round cylinder head (with which the engine ran) it would have to be shaped like this. And even this would require the valve cages, valves, spring retainers and springs to be assembled as stand alone units and pressed/loctited in from the bottom of the cylinder head.---But---It's February, and I don't have anything else to do--- the current cylinder head which I have been trying to start the engine with (unsuccessfully) is about 4 times larger in terms of cubic inch space inside it.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/4905/rIj1O0.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on February 14, 2019, 11:03:59 PM
And I suppose that if I was afraid of the compression shooting out the entire valve cage, valve, and all the associated guts, I could groove the head of the valve cages and bolt on a retainer plate.--Although in reality, I've never had an engine do that.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img921/4788/L8Tp2p.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on February 15, 2019, 02:45:33 PM
Okay--more insomnia inspired ideas--Since the exhaust valve is operated by a cam and must have clearance overhead to lift fully (0.156") plus about 1/16" extra clearance , the cavity over the head of the exhaust valve must remain as I have shown it. However--The intake valve is atmospheric, and never raises more than about 0.080" off it's seat, so the overhead on the side above the intake valve can be lower as I have shown it here. What I am trying to do here is cut down as much space as I possibly can in the "burn chamber" to give the engine higher compression. My piston, at top dead center is 0.176" from the end of the cylinder. Since I have drilled and tapped the top of the cylinder for a "space filler", I can also put a 0.176" thick spacer on the end of the cylinder if I have to in order to drive the compression even higher.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/9999/AiyvAv.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: gbritnell on February 15, 2019, 05:38:58 PM
Brian,
I know that small engines can be very frustrating at times but yours is certainly a head scratcher. With all elements, compression, fuel and spark seemingly good I have one last idea.
When you're cranking the engine over with the drill and it's kind of firing stop after a short while and pull the spark plug. If the plug is somewhat wet or sooty that would mean the fuel isn't burning well enough to get a complete burn, thus producing full power per charge cycle. If this is the case my thought is the combustion chamber is so convoluted with the valve plugs protruding down that maybe, just maybe they are restricting a complete burn of the fuel.
This is my last thought, I have no more.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on February 15, 2019, 06:01:25 PM
George--Like you, I have no clear answer for this. I have pulled the plug, and the plug although not bone dry, isn't fouled with fuel either. I have adjusted ignition timing and valve timing until there is nowhere left to adjust them to that hasn't been tried at least once. The engine bounces back quite readily against compression if you attempt to spin the flywheels by hand. The only issue that I am able to come up with is that the "burn chamber" is quite convoluted and quite large. This goes along with the apparent lack of power. When the engine is firing along with the drill, and I remove the drill, the engine keeps on firing for 10 to 15 seconds and just gradually dies away, giving all the appearances of just not enough power to keep things rolling. I'm working on a new cylinder head right now with a much smaller burn chamber.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on February 15, 2019, 08:10:43 PM
Hang on boys, here we go again. Third times a charm, right?
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/7179/0zwN7M.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on February 16, 2019, 03:03:46 PM
Before I go ahead and scrounge the valve cages and valves out of the previous head and put them into the new head, I thought a "comparison shot" of the burn chamber in the two heads would be interesting. The new cylinder "burn chamber" is roughly 1/3 of the size of the old "burn chamber".
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/9079/7DYAep.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: crueby on February 16, 2019, 03:47:26 PM
That is quite a big difference!
 :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on February 16, 2019, 11:00:26 PM
For what I'm doing, it isn't imperative that I know the cubic inch displacement of the burn chamber in the head. I do know "smaller" from "bigger" without having to do a lot of measuring. The burn chamber in this new head is approximately 2/3 smaller than that of the previous head. And---On my engine the piston stops 0.176" short of the end of the cylinder when it is at top dead center. I have drilled and tapped the top of the piston so that if necessary I can add spacers to the end of it, up to a total of 0.170" in order to play with compression ratios. My whole family (all eleven of us) went out to a nice restaurant in Alliston this afternoon to celebrate oldest granddaughters 15th birthday and her younger brothers 8th birthday. Much cake was eaten and much fun was had. Then I came home, had my old mans nap for an hour, then finished the new cylinder head and pressed/loctited in the valve assemblies. This was a rather nasty experience, trying to get Loctite on the cages but not on the valves themselves. After everything was pressed into place I cleaned up the valve faces  with Q-tips, and put the entire head in my mill vice with enough pressure to raise the valve faces away from  the seats , and it can set up overnight. These valves were sealing very well against the seats in the previous head, and it is my fondest hope that they will seal as well in this new head. If not, I can take the springs and keepers off, grip the shank of the valve in my small hand chuck, and lap them a bit more.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/8706/rDDHFF.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on February 17, 2019, 05:52:41 PM
This is a diagnostic tool I have been meaning to build for some time. The metal piece of sparkplug can be whatever fits your particular engine.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/1048/pq03Ft.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on February 17, 2019, 11:03:18 PM
Some days you eat the bear, some days the bear eats you. I did finish the new head and put it on the engine. Everything fits, but no compression. So--I did make the new screw into the sparkplug hole compression tester. Put some air on it, and I had air leaks everywhere. I had attached a 1" diameter slug of aluminum to the top of the piston in the previous head incarnation, but it was too long for the newest head, so I took it off and made a new one  which was only 0.170" long---worked fine as I have 0.176" from head of piston to end of cylinder at top dead center. Will pull the head off to see what the heck is going on. Think I'll go up north tomorrow and see my mother. She is 98 years old and not doing too well right now.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on February 18, 2019, 10:22:29 PM
Today is the first time in two months that I haven't been dying from lower back pain.--I didn't stand for hours at the lathe or mill today. What a strange coincidence!!! Instead goodwife and I made the 200Km trip up north to see my 89 year old aunt and my 98 year old mother. Aunty is just a bright and sparkling as she ever was. Mom---Well, mom isn't doing too well. She did know me and Aunty, wasn't real sure about goodwife until I reminded her. She isn't in any pain, but is a bit befuddled. She is very well cared for in the seniors home where she lives. Tomorrow I will pull the new cylinder head off the engine (Only four bolts to remove) and start chasing down air leaks. The valve and cage assemblies weren't really a hard press fit into the new cylinder, so I doubt that I have distorted anything. I may get out my jar of #600 compound and lap them both a bit. Due to the nature of this cylinder head, I can't get the valves out again, but I can access the valve stems and get my finger chuck on them to lap them into the seats a bit. There could be some Loctite on the valve faces or seats.--It was messy getting the loctited valve assemblies into the head. Nothing is stuck, that has to move. The valves sealed tighter than a ducks butt in the previous Frankenhead, so nothing should really have changed.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on February 19, 2019, 02:14:58 PM
Just so you can see what I'm dealing with---I pulled the cylinder head off this morning, took off the valve springs and retainers, and lapped both valves, first with 350 grit, then again with 600 grit. You can see the dull ring around one of the valves which is the actual contact surface that touches the valve seat. Now, using the old "blow your guts out test",if I hold the exhaust valve closed and blow in the exhaust pipe, it is completely air-tight--no air gets past the valve. If I hold the intake valve closed and blow into the carburetor air inlet, again things are absolutely air-tight. I even called my tool shop this morning and asked them about ordering a new finger chuck for me.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/2545/ssPT5r.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on February 19, 2019, 03:23:56 PM
Head is back on engine. Good compression. Same old, same old, fires just great with drill, dies away when drill is removed. I'm running out of things to try here. Last resort is a different carburetor.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on February 19, 2019, 05:16:26 PM
Okay--Here we go. First run with third head design on it. This has not been an easy engine. I am having a difficult time getting "sustained runs". This video truly is the first run that lasted longer than 20 seconds. It ran for about 5 minutes before slowing down and stopping. In this video the hit and miss is not hooked up yet. I have to get the engine to run more predictably and constantly before worrying to much about hitting and missing.
06TpUNgimMg
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on February 19, 2019, 08:15:31 PM
After a LOT of investigating, remeasuring everything, I found that the exhaust cam had only .094" of lift, not the 0.156" that is called for. The previous video shows the engine running with the bad cam, but I simply couldn't get the repeatability and consistency I need. Once I switched to a cam with the required lift, everything settled right down and now I can run the engine until I shut it off with the switch. Jeez, what a struggle. I don't know how I made the bad cam--must have miss-measured is all I can think of. Tomorrow I will reconnect the hit and miss mechanism. This is a huge relief, finding out what was wrong. Ringo--Each engine is different, and even without a throttle each engine will find it's own "happy rpm" to run at. You can speed it up or slow it down (some) by adjusting the needle valve, but ultimately you want to find at what rpm the engine is happiest and leave the needle valve in that position when you hook up the hit and miss mechanism. Some engines will run in an acceptable rpm range without a throttle, while some will spiral completely out of control, scaring you half to death and have you grabbing for the shut off switch. I am running on a temporary gas tank right now, so I have to switch back to the proper tank and anti-backflow valve and make sure everything still operates correctly.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: crueby on February 19, 2019, 08:50:22 PM
Glad you found the issue, gotta be great to have it running well!   :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on February 19, 2019, 10:05:03 PM
And here we are---correct exhaust cam, third and final cylinder head, and using the original base mounted gas tank and anti-backflow valve.
78wJ3RlwPAk
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Admiral_dk on February 19, 2019, 10:23:14 PM
Congratulations Brian - it's a nice runner  :cheers:

Do you think that the second head would have worked just as well with this latest cam ?
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on February 19, 2019, 11:08:05 PM
No, I don't think it would have. I actually had both cams, the good one and the bad one on the previous head at different times, but it wasn't going to work no matter what I done. I think there was simply too much space in the burn chamber of that previous head.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Craig DeShong on February 20, 2019, 02:05:54 AM
 :cheers:  I knew you'd figure it out.  Runs nice now.    :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: crueby on February 20, 2019, 02:06:55 AM
So it was actually a medical issue with the engine... It had good compression, but with that exhaust cam it had a Decompression problem...  It had the bends!   :Lol:




Sorry, couldn't resist...
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on February 20, 2019, 04:12:28 PM
Okay fellows---This is it. Engine starts, runs, hits, and misses. I will continue to fiddle with things which should provide less hits and longer misses, but the engine and hit and miss features are completed. This has been an interesting 9 week thrash, I've learned a few things, been surprised a couple of times, and been frustrated beyond all belief at times. All of the difficult stuff has been sorted out, and drawings updated as I went along. If you are a skilled engine builder with two or three internal combustion engines under your belt, this would be a great engine to build. No castings are involved, just bar stock. Thank you all for following the build and commenting. If you want to buy a set of plans (there are about 50 drawings), Send $25 Canadian funds to my Paypal account where I am registered under my email address  brupnow@rogers.com  I send out my drawings electronically, as .pdf files soo that you need no proprietary software to open and read them.---Brian Rupnow
7g4KJUPmv7ot=5s
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on February 20, 2019, 11:43:06 PM
Synopsis---I'm glad this engine is finished. I'm somewhat disappointed that it doesn't have a better hit and miss ratio. Biggest finding is that when you add in a set of helical gears for the sideshaft and a set of bevel gears for the governor, the engine "coasts" like a lead balloon. With or without the Viton o-ring on the piston this engine does not coast well.--at least not with 6" diameter flywheels. On a full size engine or on a larger scale model with possibly 8" flywheels and a 1.25" bore piston I'm sure that the "coasting" would be greatly improved. The governor works very well. It is rather complex, but it does function better than I had thought it would, and is very sensitive to changes in rpm. I have always had a sense of great "mystery" when it comes to face cams, but after the first rendition of this engine with a face cam, and thanks to help from a couple of forum members, I wouldn't be afraid to design and machine a face cam again. This is the first engine I have ever built with an "internal" fuel tank mounted in the engine base. It worked out very well, and the anti backflow valve I designed and built really does work well, and keeps the fuel from draining back into the tank when the engine is in "miss" mode. The strange "Frankenhead" I designed and built to allow installing the valves from the top of the cylinder head didn't work. I never really come up with an exact answer as to why it didn't work, but I surmise that the burn chamber created was simply to large. The third and final cylinder head, in which the valves, valve cages, springs and retainers were inserted as "sub assemblies" really did work out well. I had never thought of doing it that way, and I give thanks to "Ringo", a relative newcomer to one of the forums I post on for suggesting it. The basic structure of the engine including the water reservoir, sideplates, base, crankshaft, and ball bearings is pretty standard fare for this type of engine, as are the cylinder piston and connecting rod. It's been an engine which provided me good entertainment for two months or so, and made me stretch my machining abilities to a higher level. Thank you to everyone who stopped by, said Hi, or even had a look at what I was doing.---Brian Rupnow
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: 10KPete on February 21, 2019, 02:24:17 AM
Congratulations, Brian! The engine runs very well I think and it's likely that you could tweak it a bit more but you're at the 99% point so I don't blame you for "giving it a rest".

This has been a very interesting build to follow and I did learn a few things from it. Never too old to learn! :old: :happyreader:

Thanks again for your wonderful and entertaining posts.

 :cheers:

Pete
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: John Hill on February 21, 2019, 02:51:14 AM
Brian, I can only imagine the short miss duration is due to friction more than anything else and assuming everything is free in a mechanical sense I wonder what part  pumping losses in and out of the exhaust port have to play.  I wonder if a bigger diameter exhaust pipe might make an improvement?

John
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Roger B on February 21, 2019, 11:22:02 AM
Nicely done  :praise2:  :praise2: There's always a reason things don't work like they should, the challenge is finding it  :)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Craig DeShong on February 21, 2019, 01:33:16 PM
 :cheers: looks and runs great Brian
  Nice job !
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: cheepo45 on February 21, 2019, 05:29:24 PM
Thanks, Brian for bringing us along this journey with you.
I have been checking MEM a lot more than usual for the last few months!
 Scott
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on February 22, 2019, 01:58:30 AM
When I built this engine, I "borrowed" a carburetor from one of my other hit and miss engines. Now that the main build fever has tapered off a bit, I will build a new carburetor specifically for this engine. I had a few issues with carburetor placement, necessitated by going rapidly thru three different head designs. I don't really want to make any more changes to the final third head, but I do want a carburetor that sets up really close to the head and has adequate clearance from the sparkplug. This design, although it requires a clearance notch on the land which centers the sparkplug in the head and a couple of tapped #6 holes, gives me everything I wanted. It sets up close to the head, it has adequate clearance form the sparkplug, and it's not going to get whacked by the revolving cam.--And best of all, I found a piece of brass big enough to make it in my "brass drawer".
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/3286/NCRCCm.jpg)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/7175/k62xlZ.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on February 22, 2019, 04:03:59 PM
The carb body, while small, ends up being quite complex.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/3206/J0rdSo.jpg)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/3313/zvwzsQ.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on February 22, 2019, 08:12:07 PM
This isn't exactly micro-surgery, but it's darn close. I will make up the two 1/4" plugs and solder them in later today.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/5691/NcFLmL.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: gbritnell on February 22, 2019, 09:08:22 PM
Brian,
If you had a Venturi in the carb it would help both with the fuel draw and the atomization.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on February 22, 2019, 09:48:18 PM
George--There is a venturi in the carb. At the inlet the bore starts out at a full 0.281" diameter. Then 1/2" into the bore it decreases to 1/4" diameter. The real kicker is that the fuel jet tube at a full .160" diameter runs all the way thru the bore crossways, creating a big obstruction for the air to flow on it's way into the carb. This by itself will create a considerable venturi on the downstream side where the hole for fuel delivery sets on the downwind side.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/3512/I8LdPN.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on February 23, 2019, 05:52:42 PM
And this is as much carburetor as I can build today. I need some very small drills, which can only be bought at a toolshop to finish this off, and they are closed on the weekends.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/5813/8uYYD0.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Art K on February 23, 2019, 06:39:34 PM
Brian,
Your side shaft engine runs very well. I'm glad to see that you got the head issues sorted out.
Art
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on February 23, 2019, 07:03:30 PM
Thanks Art--It doesn't run as well as I might have hoped, but I'm still tweaking a few things. Of course, with a new engine like this i'm always a bit thrilled when they run at all.---Brian
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on February 23, 2019, 11:40:03 PM
I couldn't go any farther with the carburetor today, due to a lack of miniature drills.---But--I could fit the carburetor to the cylinder head and make what changes were necessary (drill and tap two holes in cylinder head, and a small counterbore over the port hole for an o-ring). I didn't really want to machine anything today, but goodwife has a cold and didn't feel like going out. Everything fits and clears like I had anticipated, so I'm happy on that account.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/4803/HvvKBT.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on February 25, 2019, 11:27:03 PM
Making carburetors is not terribly difficult, just a bit time consuming. I drove across town in a blizzard today and got the 0.040" and 0.052" diameter drills I needed. Came home and carefully drilled the holes in all the right pieces, and just about to finish up here. In final assembly, I screw the needle valve top (knurled part) down onto the fuel jet until it bottoms out against the carburetor body, then back it off two full turns.  I have a selection of sewing needles from the local fabric shop, and I find one that slides all the way in until it bottoms out against an shoulder in the fuel jet. To be sure, I use the old "blow your guts out" trick on the end which the fuel line will eventually connect to. If you can't blow any air through unless you pull the needle back a bit, you have found the right size needle. I will now clip whatever part of the needle sticks out past the top of the knurled part, and solder the needle to the knurled part while everything is assembled. You will also see a tube of "seal all" laying beside the carburetor. After the parts have cooled off a bit, I unscrew the knurled part (which now has the needle attached to it), loosen off the hex nut, and put a dab of seal all on both sides of the fuel jet where it exits from the body, then quickly reassemble everything. If you don't use the seal all to seal things, the carburetor will suck air around the jet rather than sucking up fuel from the tank. Don't ask me how I know that!!
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/7953/C5fznC.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on February 26, 2019, 12:07:20 AM
The only other bit of carburetor wisdom that I have is this. Those lovely, shiny sewing needles have some kind of clear coat on them to prevent them from rusting while setting on the shelf. Before I try and silver solder them to the knurled part, I soak them in laquer thinners for about 5 minutes, then wipe them down with a clean dry rag and rub the area that will actually see solder on a very fine bit of sandpaper. If you don't do this, the solder will all pool up around the end of the needle but not flow onto it.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: crueby on February 26, 2019, 01:01:09 AM
Good tip on the needles, I just assumed they were chromed instead.


On the Seal-All, that is good for high temperature use? Does it say what range? Always on the lookout for that sort of goo.
 :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on February 26, 2019, 01:05:40 AM
It doesn't say anything about temperature range on the package. I have used it on quite a few carburetors, and even though the carbs set right up next to a hot engine head, I've never had it fail.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: crueby on February 26, 2019, 01:08:40 AM
Just found their website, they have a data sheet that says 'Service Temperature: -40 to 150 įF (-40 to 66 įC)'
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on February 27, 2019, 10:32:08 PM
"The best laid plans of mice and men"---I think perhaps Robby Burns may have built small engines as a hobby. My great little new carburetor that was supposed to seal tight against the head with a small o-ring---didn't!!! I played all day yesterday with no success, so today I built carburetor #4, which goes back to sealing on the 5/16" tapped thread in the cylinder head. It wasn't that bad--I got to salvage the fuel jet and the nut and needle from the o-ring carb that didn't work. Tomorrow, after the Loctite and seal all has had overnight to dry, we'll try this dance again.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/5826/jaiJpf.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Art K on February 28, 2019, 02:35:09 AM
Brian,
What's another day in the scheme of things. :)
Art
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: crueby on February 28, 2019, 02:40:45 AM
Watching along and learning a lot.   :popcorn: :popcorn:




With all the highs, lows, steps forward and back, have you come up with a good name for this engine. One thats clean enough to share, anyway? Great persistence!
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on March 11, 2019, 07:09:49 PM
I'm back, after a 10 day rest from this engine. I needed a break, because it wasn't working up to it's full potential, and I had totally ran out of ideas. I have had problems right from day one with this engine, where it would fire along with the drill driving it, but then gradually die away and quit when the drill was removed. Sometimes it would run for 5 or 6 minutes, long enough to get a video of it,  and then gradually die away and quit. I tried a different cam and cam follower---no joy. I tried a couple of different carburetors---no joy. I think that today I have isolated the cause of all my heart-ache. There is something very, very fishy about either the position of the gas tank (in the base) or with that anti backflow valve which now has the 1/8" check ball in it. Today I changed back to my carburetor with a 0.156" throat and the gas tank from a different engine mounted about 1/2" below the carburetor throat, and the engine ran for 15 minutes straight and didn't offer to quit. I actually had to shut it off with the switch. This amazed me so much that I started it three or four more times, and each time I had to shut it off with the switch. I am going to see today about getting a 3/32" steel ball for the anti backflow device. Also, I have to devise a mechanism for the governor which lets me increase or decrease the pressure of the compression spring in the governor while the engine is running, so I can fine tune the hitting and missing.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/15/UQkC5F.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on March 11, 2019, 07:50:22 PM
This is the exhaust cam I am using on this engine. Keep in mind that the angles are somewhat theoretical. I made no allowance for the gap of about .008" between the end of the exhaust valve stem and the part of the rocker arm that contacts it. This gap, called "valve lash" is necessary when the cam is not acting on the rocker arm, otherwise the exhaust valve would be held open and leak. The numbers say that the valve will begin to open about 40 degrees before the piston is at bottom dead center, remain open thru the full 180 degrees of piston travel as it moves from bottom dead center up to top dead center and then closes. The reality is that it begins to open about 20 degrees before bottom dead center, however it still must totally close when the piston reaches top dead center. If it remains open past top dead center, the atmospheric intake valve won't open until the exhaust valve is fully closed. I finally got around to checking the compression ratio on this engine, and it is very close to 7:1 ratio.
(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/4166/jveQUD.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on March 11, 2019, 08:54:43 PM
And just for interests sake--This is how I intend to add a "counter-spring" and adjuster to fine tune the point at which the governor kicks in and out.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/4978/chv1Rh.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on March 12, 2019, 04:37:12 PM
The counter-spring for the governor has been built and installed. It works. You can definitely change the rpm at which the governor engages. It is a very delicate adjustment. Now I need to address the carburetor one more time, because it is running on a borrowed carburetor.  This engine does not have a great "coast" mode. I'm not sure if it's simply a matter of flywheel diameter and engine bore, or if there is just too much inherent friction from the helical gears running the sideshaft and the bevel gears which operate the governor weights. This is basically the same engine as was built by Craig Deshong, based on a 1905 Myers hit and miss engine. His model has 8 1/2" dia. flywheels and I "think" a 1.25" bore cylinder. His engine runs marvelously, and has a much longer "coast cycle" than this one does.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/4459/WMEI6s.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Admiral_dk on March 12, 2019, 09:53:20 PM
Glad to hear that you are making progress - ie. discovering the major reason it keeps shutting down  :cheers:
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on March 15, 2019, 05:11:44 PM
Just so ya know I'm not being totally slothful up here---Newest carburetor with 0.156" bore and bag of 100
3/32" steel balls in a plastic bag. I'm having a terrible fight with my arthritis this past week, so I'm not moving quite as fast as I usually do.--Going in on Monday for a cortisone shot in my left knee. Hope to have new carb mounted and new anti backflow made sometime over the weekend.--Brian
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/3642/8hx6mn.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on March 15, 2019, 09:56:45 PM
Going to a 0.094" (3/32") diameter  steel ball lets me make a much more simplified anti-backflow valve.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/8114/Y9L1Cw.jpg)
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on March 16, 2019, 12:14:00 AM
Very happy to report that new carburetor works fine. Engine is running and starting consistently with new carburetor. I will post details of new carburetor tomorrow.---Also hope to finish new anti-flowback valve tomorrow.---Brian
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: scc on March 16, 2019, 10:34:10 AM
Hope the knee injection went well Brian.  Had my right knee done....much improved now.    Pleased to hear you've sorted carb.  looking forward to the video :popcorn:     Best Wishes     Terry
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on March 16, 2019, 07:49:59 PM
Finally--With the 3/32" steel ball in the anti backflow valve and the new carburetor with the 0.156" throat diameter, we are running off the main gas tank in the base and getting sustained runs. I am going to post drawings details of the new carburetor, take a final video, and then this thing is done like dinner.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on March 16, 2019, 08:59:44 PM
As promised, here is the new carburetor drawing. It actually has a total of four sheets to it. I am posting an image of the first page here. The full four pages can be downloaded from the attached link.---Brian
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/4522/zF0VKx.jpg)
http://www.mediafire.com/file/7b03o2fo3b9bfns/CARBURETOR_0.156_RUPNOW_WITH_OFFSET.JPG/file
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: crueby on March 16, 2019, 09:13:02 PM
Glad things worked out well on this engine - guess it shows how narrow the good performance band is in the vast forest of different combinations of design elements. Looking forward to the video!
 :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on March 16, 2019, 09:39:35 PM
Here we go---Final video time. This has kept me entertained/drove me crazy since mid December, and I'm not sorry to be leaving it behind. Thanks very much to all of you who followed this long post. I have learned a lot on the way, and discovered a couple of new things, and now I will leave it behind.---Brian Rupnow
uk5tmuStojM
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: scc on March 16, 2019, 09:47:57 PM
Proper Job Brian :ThumbsUp:             Terry
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on March 23, 2019, 02:21:00 PM
The fat lady hasn't sang yet on this engine. The engine runs, you have seen that in the videos. There is still 10" of snow in my yard, and the temperatures are still below freezing here in the daytime. When the weather warms up enough that I can get this engine off the corner of my desk and out into the main garage, with the big garage doors open, I will be able to do a lot more playing with the hit and miss action without the potential of gassing myself.----Brian
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Art K on March 23, 2019, 09:29:57 PM
Brian,
Sounds great, obvious hit & miss cycles. Happy dance time! Unfortunately samsung doesn't have dancing elephants.
Art
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on May 28, 2019, 11:58:43 PM
Today I finally got around to taking this engine out to my main garage where I could run it for as long as I wanted with the garage doors open. I haven't been happy with this engine. It seemed to me that driving two sets of gears (one set of helical for the camshaft and one set of bevel gears on the governor) made it simply too stiff to coast any amount of time when in miss mode.  When I build an engine in the dead of winter, I can only run it on the corner of my desk in my design office, and I'm always afraid that I might gas myself with carbon monoxide. Consequently, the gears and bushing surfaces never get a chance to totally "wear in" and eliminate any "friction points". I've had it running now without the "governor lever" on it for about an hour and it hasn't boiled the water in the cooling reservoir. The carburetor on it still seems very "fussy". There is an extremely small band between going so slow that it starves and stalls, or going so fast that it wants to disintegrate. I will keep you posted on any improvements that I make.
Title: Re: Design and build side shaft hit and miss engine from bar stock
Post by: Brian Rupnow on June 05, 2019, 03:00:42 PM
After rebuilding the carburetor and installing a new Viton ring on the piston, the engine is running as good as it is ever going to. This is the final video of it running, and I'm quite pleased with it. I do sell the plans for $25 Canadian funds.---Brian Rupnow
_BUTtWjXaRE