Model Engine Maker

Supporting => Vehicles & Models => Topic started by: Kim on August 30, 2015, 05:28:02 AM

Title: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on August 30, 2015, 05:28:02 AM
So I'm off on another adventure!  My new project is the Steam Tractor by Rudy Kouhoupt.  His design is a 3/4" scale model, not after any specific prototype but based on the general look of the Case tractor. He includes several pictures of full sized Case tractors in the back of the book to give you an idea of what it can look like.

Here's a picture of Rudy's steam tractor, and what I hope mine might resemble a year or two from now:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/001a-Intro-6-DSC_0213Sm.jpg)



I've read through the book; not a ton of reading, but a lot of densely packed information to be sure.  And a lot of drawings.  I made my own BOM list and ordered the materials I needed.  And over the last week, the brown truck has stopped at my house a couple of times leaving me some nice heavy boxes of fun stuff!

And here's the pile of stock that will (hopefully) be transformed into a steam tractor.  The pile on the right is what I had in my stock, and the slightly larger pile on the left is all the metal that I purchased for this project!
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/001a-Intro-1-DSC_0191Sm.jpg)


Of course, it won't take all of this - I tend to order 4' lengths of whatever, even if I only need a few inches, that way I have extra for do-overs, and hopefully help me build up some stock for future projects.  Unless the material is super expensive (like 1" brass rod, for example) or something that seems pretty specific to this one project (like 4.5" diameter steel tube).  Then I'll get just how much I need, or possibly a 1' length, depending on what it is and how I feel.

So, today, with most of the material in house, I set off on my new adventure!  My first REAL steam engine! :)

Wish me luck!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: fumopuc on August 30, 2015, 06:39:49 AM
Hi Kim, of course I wish you luck. I am sure you will need it.
A steam traction engine is a project which includes a lot of different challanges, so step bye step the learning curve will grow. This kind of projects offer much room to add own ideas to make it looking more individual.
Have fun and enjoy it and it could be, that some of these brown trucks could be seen more often in front of your house during the next two years.
Waiting for the next part of another long term build report with a lot of pictures.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Roger B on August 30, 2015, 07:28:18 AM
Good luck with your new project  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp: The design certainly captures what to me is the essence of an American traction engine with round spokes and the long front overhang  :)
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Jasonb on August 30, 2015, 07:38:42 AM
There is a detailed build on HMEM which will probably be more help than the book.

Looking forward to following along.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on August 30, 2015, 12:38:37 PM
Another great project Kim. I'm along for the ride too.  :popcorn:

Bilk
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on August 30, 2015, 03:35:03 PM
Thanks for the well wishes Achim, Roger, Jason, and Bill,

And thanks for the pointer Jason.  You (or someone) mentioned the HMEM build log a while back when I indicated an interest in this project.  I found the build log and have been reading it.  Lots of good stuff there. And we've already solved the one of the early problems in different ways, but it was nice to hear others have had the same issue.  I'm referring to the large diameter cast bronze coupler Rudy uses to make the wheels.  I can't find anything like that anywhere.  I've found things that might be close, but they are absurdly expensive.  Dennis (who did the build on HMEM) ended up using copper tube.  I chose to go a much less expensive route and use steel DOM tube (A513 Type 5 I believe). We'll see how that goes! I will be referring to that build log frequently during this project I'm sure!

And yes Achim, the big brown truck has stopped at my place several times lately, and I'm sure there are more stops to come in the future! :)

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Don1966 on August 30, 2015, 03:37:18 PM
Kim that is great project and I am sure you will find very challenging. Best of luck to you on this fantastic journey. Just stay focused and you will do great. I will enjoy following along with you.


Don
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on August 30, 2015, 03:41:28 PM
Thanks Don! :)
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: joe d on August 30, 2015, 04:10:32 PM
Kim

I've had the book for a few years now, it might make it up to the top of the list some day... in the meantime
I will enjoy following along!

Joe
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Dave Otto on August 30, 2015, 04:13:26 PM
Hi Kim

Great to see you dive into a new project; I will be pulling up a chair to follow along with what I'm sure will be a very interesting build.

Dave
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on August 30, 2015, 04:34:42 PM
Hey Joe and Dave, glad to have you along! :)

Yesterday, I started making the wheels.

As I mentioned above, I couldn't find the material for the wheels that is specified in the plans, so I made a substitution.  I'm using steel tubing for the wheels (DOM A513).  I have no experience with this, but its listed as having slightly lower machinability than 1018.  :-\

For the rear wheels, I purchased two 1.5" lengths of 4.5" OD, 1/8" wall, steel tube.  I had them cut to length because it was pretty expensive to get a larger piece and I didn't see a lot of use for extra 4.5" steel tube sitting around in my inventory just taking up dollars and space.  Also, I'm not sure my little HF bandsaw could hold a 6" dia tube!

Anyway, I chucked this in my lathe and face off both sides, nice and square, to 1.5".  The second wheel came out a little more square than the first one (see, I learned something!), but I they are both within my tolerances for tractor wheels :)
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/002a-Wheels-3-DSC_0198Sm.jpg)
 

I decided to get the front wheels started too. These were worrying me a little more.  I couldn't find the 3 1/4", 1/16" wall tube that is specified in the plans, so I got some 1/8" wall tube.  This stuff wasn't nearly as expensive as the larger, so I got a 12" section.  My saw could handle that no problem!
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/002a-Wheels-2-DSC_0195Sm.jpg)

I got it as square as I could in my 3-jaw chuck.  I know the 4-jaw would center it more accurately, but It was within 3-4 thou which seemed within tolerance for a tractor wheel.  Then I started to shave off 1/16" of wall thickness.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/002a-Wheels-4-DSC_0203Sm.jpg)

This went OK, but the chips came off as a long sharp nasty rats nest.  This A513 stuff doesn't seem like the most friendly stuff to work with.  Guess they were right.  And parting it off was even harder.  I found that it crawled out of the 3-jaw chuck.  I should have probably just sawed it off.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/002a-Wheels-5-DSC_0204Sm.jpg)

So, my first stupid mistake for this project was that the first front wheel I cut off at 0.825". Which is sad, because they are supposed to be 7/8 wide, which is actually 0.875".  Dumb mistake.  So I'll be making another one of those next time I'm out.

All in all, I think I'm off to an OK start!  I just need to be more careful of my fraction to decimal conversions!  :embarassed:
Kim

Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: fumopuc on August 30, 2015, 04:51:44 PM
Hi Kim, shall I have a serious word to the guy at the drawing board who is converting everything into the production drawings ?
Well, over all it seems to be a good start, your first parts taking shape and this parted off not usable tube may be ends as an ash tray for smokers.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Don1966 on August 30, 2015, 05:36:12 PM
Hi Kim, isn't it a great feeling to get started on a new project, even though it doesn't always go as we would like it to. Minor mishaps will happen bud.
Do you plan on making the gears for this? That would be a great learning lesson and should not be hard to do. If you haven't yet download my calculation sheets from the plans and drawing section on making the button tool and gear.   8). These gears are 14.5 degree pressure angle.  :stickpoke:

Don
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Bearcar1 on August 30, 2015, 06:27:53 PM
This will be an interesting one to follow…. I began the same project several years again and it stalled due to some issues not pertaining to it. It is a fun and satisfying piece of work that has plenty of room for creativity and embellishment. I'm looking forward to see what and how you do. Don't be ashamed to show it all, intakes included….. it helps others see what can be done and what/how something failed.   :popcorn: :ThumbsUp: :DrinkPint:


BC1
Jim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on August 30, 2015, 11:20:25 PM
Thanks guys,
Yeah, I'm not too surprised by do-overs. I'm used to it :embarassed:  Usually it shows I'm stretching; trying new things, using new materials!   But that's the fun part! Trying new things and learning, right? :)  This time, unfortunately, it just showed that I was getting careless; trying to get 'one more thing done' before I headed in for our big social event for the afternoon.  Always a bad choice, and I know it.  I should have stopped before I started rushing.

Don, YES!  I plan to make the gears for this.  That will be one of the fun new learnings for me; that, along with the sheet metal work  (I haven't done much of that since high school), riveting, making a boiler, and silver soldering.  Just to name a few.  So many new skills for me to develop on this project!  :cartwheel:

I'm about to go and re-do that front wheel. And it will go faster and better this time, and I won't screw it up (he says with fingers crossesed ;)).

I am pretty excited about this project  :pinkelephant:
Kim

PS the animated emoticons were used with Marv in mind!
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: vcutajar on August 30, 2015, 11:51:57 PM
This sure is an interesting build.

Know the feeling of what happens when trying to rush something.  Been there and done that. So usually I never spend more than two hours at a time in the garage even if things seem to be going smoothly.

Vince
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on August 30, 2015, 11:53:37 PM
You're off to a good start Kim, despite the little mishap with the front wheel. Happens to all of us, all you can do is take it in stride and move ahead.

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on August 31, 2015, 03:02:50 AM
Thanks for the kind words Vince and Bill!

With just a few hours of shop time today, I bored out another inch of the 3.25" DOM tubing that I'm using for the front wheels.  This time, instead of using the parting tool, I took it to the bandsaw.  Unfortunately, the piece was too short to be clamped the normal way, so I got creative.  I clamped it against the back with a piece of bar stock, and used a Kant-Twist clamp with a little scrap rod, to hold it to the base.  I was VERY careful to make sure I wouldn't cut through my clamp!
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/002b-Wheels-1-DSC_0219Sm.jpg)
 

To face these pieces to the correct length, I held them in the 3-jaw chuck.  Unfortunately, the rim was so thin (1/16") that it slid down into the relief cut in the jaws and didn't provide good parallelism to work from.  I tried several things, but the thing that finally worked was to use some 1/2" parallel's and Ty-wrap them in place so they wouldn't go flying.  I ran things slow and stayed FAR away from the trajectory path, in case anything came flying off.  But it worked.  I did try my normal way of setting things square, then removing the parallels before running, but with so little to clamp onto, and with how stubborn this metal is, the ring would always creep about.  Thus, I ended up with this method to leave the parallels in.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/002b-Wheels-2-DSC_0223Sm.jpg)
 

And here are the outer rim for all four wheels.  Still lots of work to do on the wheels.  But I'm moving along! :)
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/002b-Wheels-3-DSC_0225Sm.jpg)

I was pleasantly surprised to realize that the GA drawing is 1:1.  Not a big deal, but its kinda fun :)

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on September 06, 2015, 05:59:49 AM
For today's shop time, I decided to see if I could figure out how to do rivets.  There is a LOT of riveting to be done on this steam tractor, and that's something I've never done before.  Rudy recommends using 18 GA brass escutcheon pins.  I had to look that up.  Turns out, they're little brass brads.  I had a bunch, but not the right size.  So I did an Amazon search and had some delivered.  They arrived last night.  So, of course, I had to play with them today! :)

I've been reading up on how to set a rivet.  The best info I found was in Stan's PMR Horizontal Boiler build log (here: http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,2360.msg39244.html#msg39244  (http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,2360.msg39244.html#msg39244)).

The first thing I had to do was to make a riveting tool.  So I pulled out some 3/8" W-1 and turned up these two items. The short one is for the anvil, and the long one is to pound the rivet from the top.  The concave area was made using a 1/8" ball end mill in the lathe.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/002c-Rivets-1-DSC_0242Sm.jpg)

Then I did another thing I'm not too experienced at: heat treating!  I used my Bernzomatic torch to heat up the part as best I could.  The smaller part, the anvil was easier to do, but the long rivet set tool took a long time to get up to temperature, and even then I'm not certain I got it as bright as the smaller piece.  In any case, it seems to have done OK.  After the hardening, I tempered them, by bringing them up to a lower temperature (not as nearly as bright red - incredible accuracy here, eh?) and letting it cool down to room temp slowly.  While they were cooling, I drilled a 3/8" hole in a length of 5/8"x1" steel to hold the anvil.  With that, my rivet setting tool was ready to try.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/002c-Rivets-2-DSC_0244Sm.jpg)

I forgot to take pictures while I was doing it, but I tried setting a few rivets.  First, I drilled a few #55 holes in a scrap piece of steel tubing. Then used the anvil on one side and the setting tool on the other. It actually worked pretty well! But I'm going to have to wear hearing protection next time - I forgot this, despite Stan's stern warning in his aforementioned build log!

Here's the outside of the test rivets.  The top one (first one I did) I placed the brass head of the pin inside the tube and formed the head on the outside.  The bottom two were done the other way - putting the escutcheon pin in from the outside and forming the new head on the inside. I think the second is the right way to do it.  Though either way looks like it will hold quite well, the pre-formed heads look MUCH more tidy.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/002c-Rivets-3-DSC_0249Sm.jpg)

And here's the same test piece from the inside.  I flipped the part over for this picture, so it's the opposite. The lower one is the pre-formed head, and the upper two are the peened head.  I'm sure I'll get better as I go along, but these should hold!
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/002c-Rivets-4-DSC_0248Sm.jpg)

My biggest worry with the riveting is drilling through that steel tubing with #55 drill bit.  It’s kinda scary. I'm afraid that the bit will snap any moment!  :o And I'm going to be doing a LOT of these holes!

Thanks for watching today's (somewhat boring) update!
Kim

Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Jasonb on September 06, 2015, 07:42:41 AM
You may find it better to taper the end of the bottom snap away from the hole, particularly if using on the inside of the rim as you can see where it has brused the wheel rim. Also won't mark things if you have the work slightly tilted.

Copper rivits are a lot softer and easier to set than brass, may be worth looking into those.

The brass escution pins whe have here don't have a half round head, they are much flatter, if yours are the same then the recess in the tool should be shaped to suit the factory head

Always try and keep the factory head on the show side, sometimes this is not possible due to access or in the case of the wheels they should have the snap head on the inside and a CSK on the outside

Hope this helps, having put over a 1000 rivits into my traction engine you get to know what works.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on September 06, 2015, 04:29:00 PM
Thanks for the advise Jason!  I really appreciate it.

The heads on these escutcheon pins are rounded, though not a full half round.  And they are a little under 3/32" in diameter. I compared it to a 1/16" radius and it looked pretty close.  I only went about 0.033" deep with the ball end mill, and felt it matched the curve and depth for the pin heads pretty well.  Maybe I shouldn't have gone quite that deep.  I'll definitely check again more closely.

Yes, your right. I see those marks on the inside of the tube now. They're quite clear. I'll have to make another bottom piece and make it slope away from the hole so I don't get those marks!

I thought about copper but the smallest ones I could find were way too big. And this seemed like a fairly good solution.  It seems to be working. I will have to practice a bit more (obviously  :embarassed:).

Still pretty worried about drilling hundreds of #55 holes in this steel.  Guess I'll practice that too. And get more #55 bits to prepare for the inevitable!  :-\

Good advice on placing the factory head too, thanks for taking the time to reply!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Dave Otto on September 06, 2015, 04:33:27 PM
Hi Kim

Riveting is something I have never done either; part of my current project is going to require a number of copper rivets so I will be learning too.

When you are heating your drill rod check it with a magnet; when the magnet no longer attracts your part is ready to quench. Sometimes on real small parts I just hold them with a magnet; when they fall off into the water they are done. On the tempering I think you may be way too hot here; polish the scale off your quenched part then heat it until it just starts to turn a nice light straw color. You can do this step in the oven which will have more control than the torch.

Great work so far; looking forward to much more.

Dave
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Dave Otto on September 06, 2015, 04:36:23 PM
Hi Kim

The escutcheon pins are probably hard drawn and you may have better luck getting the head to form if they are annealed first. You may also need to play with the length to have just the right amount of material to properly form the head.

Dave
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on September 06, 2015, 04:43:56 PM
Thanks for the pointers on the heat treating Dave. Yeah, i probably did go too hot on my tempering.  I was reading somewhere that people generally go 'too cool' and I was trying to compensate (probably over compensate :)).  And who knows if they were right anyway!

I was thinking about that too - annealing the pins before I tried to set them.  I'll try that with my next set of tests and see how that goes - After I make a new anvil and try out the new tempering technique that is! :)

Always so much fun stuff to learn!

Thanks Dave,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on September 07, 2015, 11:49:17 PM
Welcome to part 2 of my riveting saga. In this episode, I try to follow-up on all the excellent advice I have received from everyone regarding setting rivets.

First thing was to check the shape of the heads of the escutcheon pins.  And of course, Jason was right on.  They don't match 1/8" diameter at all and they are quite shallow.  I compared it to other ball end mills and it seemed to match a 3/16" ball end pretty close.  So I made a new set of rivet tools. I made them less deep than the previous ones, to help prevent marring the material being riveted.  I also made the anvil much more tapered for the same reason.  The brighter ones on the left are the new pair.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/002d-Rivets2-05-DSC_0275Sm.jpg)

For heat treating this time, I tried Dave's suggestion of suspending the metal above the quenching water with a magnet. (http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/002d-Rivets2-01-DSC_0254Sm.jpg)

It seemed to work very well for the smaller part.  This time I turned off my bright shop lights, leaving some dim background lighting, while I heated the part.  It was much easier to see the glowing red. The part was a VERY bright red before it dropped into the water.  That was pretty cool.

The punch was another matter.  My heat source wasn't big enough to get the whole thing THAT hot at the same time.  So I settled for just hardening the business end of the punch, trying to judge the same brightness of red as the smaller part when it fell off the magnet.

Then cleaned them up, getting rid of the ugly black scale off the parts before tempering.  I've got a red-mesh wheel that I use for a very rough buffing and burr removal. Using this, I saw a LOT of sparks on the part of the punch that was tempered. But on the end that was not, I saw almost zero sparks.  I hope this is a good sign.

Once nice and shiny again, I went to temper the parts. I was going for that "straw color" I keep hearing about.  And interestingly, I did see color change while heating.  I can see why it's important to get the black off the parts for this!.  Here's what I saw - is this "straw color"?  If so, I'm afraid the tip end got too hot.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/002d-Rivets2-02-DSC_0255Sm.jpg)

But, when cleaning up the part after it cooled (slowly) I saw the same pattern of sparks on the end I'd tempered (or at least, tried to temper) and none on the non-tempered end.

I wanted to try annealing the brass pins before using them this time.  So I lined up my 10 test subjects like so:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/002d-Rivets2-03-DSC_0260Sm.jpg)

and went for it.  That was harder than it should have been.  As soon as I put the torch on them, the escutcheon pins went everywhere.  I ended up doing them one at a time & using tweezers to pick them up and drop them in the water to quench.  They turned red almost right away, if I could keep them in the flame.  But  they rolled around stupidly.  If I'm going to do hundreds of these, I'm going to have to find a way to do a bunch of them together.

After annealing, the pins looked really ugly.  Just to see what I could do, I took 5 of them and buffed them up a little.  The five on the left are as they looked after annealing.  The 2 in the middle are straight out of the package.  The 5 on the right are annealed and buffed.  They still look different.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/002d-Rivets2-04-DSC_0269Sm.jpg)

Now to try out my new rivet tools.

Drilling the holes went much easier this time. Guess what I did?  I sharpened the #55 bit.  BOY! What a difference that makes!  :)  I'm not as worried about that anymore (though, I'll probably still get a few extra #55 bits to have on hand just in case :)).  I also made a little countersink  in the top side of each hole, as Jason mentioned.

Here I've just inserted one of the annealed brass pins into its hole.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/002d-Rivets2-06-DSC_0291Sm.jpg)

And then nipped off the excess.  This seems like 'about' the right amount to leave.  I'm just trying to fill the countersink hole, not make a nice round head.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/002d-Rivets2-07-DSC_0293Sm.jpg)

After trying a few, I realized that I needed a flat punch for when I don't want to form a rounded head.  So I quickly whipped up another tool.  I did make a little pocket in the tip of the punch, just to make it easier to center and stay in place.  But its VERY Shallow and small.  Here's the two punches together.  Head forming on the right, and flatish on the left.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/002d-Rivets2-08-DSC_0295Sm.jpg)

The row on the right was done with the factory formed head on the outside.  The row on the left had the factory head inside. The top left one was done using the head forming punch. This is when I realized I needed the flater punch for these.  The lower two were done with the flat punch.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/002d-Rivets2-09-DSC_0297Sm.jpg)

Here's the underside.  You can see that the anvil is still marring the work a lot.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/002d-Rivets2-10-DSC_0301Sm.jpg)

So I ground a little bit off the anvil (and the punch tool also) to make the pocket a little more shallow (then cleaned & buffed it up).  The top row in this picture is my latest attempts after making the anvil more shallow.  Looks pretty good!
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/002d-Rivets2-11-DSC_0308Sm.jpg)

On the top, I filed off the peened messy part to leave the part of the rivet that expanded into the countersink I drilled.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/002d-Rivets2-12-DSC_0309Sm.jpg)

I think I'm about ready for the wheel rivets.

Thanks for all the help!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Don1966 on September 08, 2015, 12:02:51 AM
Kim you did a nice job on the punch and anvil. The rivets you annealed should not be dropped in water, just allow them to cold on there own.

Don
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Dave Otto on September 08, 2015, 12:29:55 AM
Hi Kim

You are making great progress; when you anneal the pins you only need to get just a little color in them. Dim the shop lights and heat them till they just start to glow a very faint orange; then as Don has indicated let them air cool.

Do a google search on the "color temperature of steel" you will some nice charts that give the temp vs. color; you will find that straw is about 430 degrees F.

Your time spent now will surely make your wheels and other riveted parts turn out much better; nice work!

Dave
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on September 08, 2015, 02:27:01 AM
Thanks for checking in, and for the helpful pointers Don and Dave.  I appreciate it!

I have heard that you can anneal Brass by quenching in water. And Wikipedia (source of all knowledge) says this:
Quote
Copper, silver[1] and brass can be cooled slowly in air, or quickly by quenching in water, unlike ferrous metals, such as steel, which must be cooled slowly to anneal. In this fashion, the metal is softened and prepared for further work—such as shaping, stamping, or forming.
You can see the whole article here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annealing_(metallurgy)).

But if your experience says to let it air cool, I'll give that a try.  This seemed to work OK.  The brass pins certainly bent easier!  ::)  But maybe air cooling will be even better :)

Thanks for the suggestion on the color chart Dave.  Here's one I came up with that I like: http://www.smex.net.au/reference/SteelColours02.php (http://www.smex.net.au/reference/SteelColours02.php)
The interesting thing here is that the cooler colors, this "straw color" is an oxidization color, not an incandescent color.  I noticed that today when I saw it. But hadn't realized it before.  This color chart confirms that in the foot notes.  I supposed it was obvious to everyone else.

Thanks,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Dave Otto on September 08, 2015, 02:51:37 AM
Hi Kim

I may be wrong but I really don't think it matters; quenching only speeds up the process.

Read this in the link that you posted;
"Copper, silver[1] and brass can be cooled slowly in air, or quickly by quenching in water"

So I guess it doesn't matter; just what ever you are comfortable with.

Dave
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Jasonb on September 08, 2015, 10:13:59 AM
Thats looking a lot better.

A small metal tin heated from below is an easy way to anneal a batch of rivits without sending them everywhere.

You might want to get some acid do pickle them in after as that will remove all the discolouration and also good for taking scale of heated steel parts.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on September 10, 2015, 05:33:02 AM
Thanks Dave, that was my take on it too, but only based on what I've read, not any real experience till now.

Jason,
Yet another good idea.  I have some pickling solution - I'll have to pull that out and use it. And I've got a tin I can use for annealing. Also and excellent idea!

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: fumopuc on September 10, 2015, 07:23:54 PM
Hi Kim, the last rivetting job I can remember, were some brake linings on a lorry drum brake, 20 or more years ago. So I am following along.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on September 13, 2015, 12:09:56 AM
Well, even though I wanted to get on with the build, I decided I still wasn't comfortable with how my riveting was working out and I needed to work on that a little more before moving on.  One problem I was having is that when trying to form the rivet head, the rivet shank would usually bend over to one side and cause the formed head to be a bit weird and off center.  Luckily, Dan sent me a pointers to some additional information on riveting on another site that helped me see a step I was missing.  The post that he pointed me to showed a 'setting' tool that compacted the rivet, broadening it to fill the hole and setting it in place, but not forming the head yet.  This seemed worth a try. 

On reflection, I see that Stan talked about that same tool, but I didn't understand it.  He had three tools - one to make sure the rivet was solidly in place, one to do the initial setting and broadening at the base, then one to form the head.

So I made two new tools, and now have the same set of three punches that Stan described.  Turns out that this system really works well! Go figure.  Guess I'm just a slow learner.

Here's the four different tools I have made:
Right: The right most tool has a deep hole (3/4" deep) just bigger than the shank of the rivets. It is used for making sure the formed head of the rivet is tight against the other side and that all layers of material are making good contact.
2nd from Right: The next tool is the 'setter' and it has a hole just a little deeper than the diameter of the rivet shank. It is used to spread the rivet in the hole and broaden the base. This one really makes the rivet tight in place and compacts it into place while keeping the rivet shank from bending.
3rd from Right: The next one forms the rivet head.
Left: The last one is the more flat one I use for when I just need a flater faced rivet.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/002e-Rivets3-1-DSC_0319Sm.jpg)

Before I used my new cool tools, I needed to anneal some more of the escutcheon pins to use for brass rivets. And this week I'd just gotten a new oxy-acetylene welding outfit.  This is something I've been meaning to try and for some reason, now was that time. I thought I'd use that to do the annealing. Boy, that torch gests WAY hotter, WAY faster than my little Bernzomatic. 
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/002e-Rivets3-5-DSC_0329Sm.jpg)

I heated them up in a little tin, but I obviously got them way too hot.  I'll probably go back to the Bernzomatic for annealing :/  I was able to salvage about 3/4 of pins.  Made me feel a little silly.
 
Following that fiasco, I went back to my test piece and drilled holes for more riveting practice. Here's  a row of rivets.  The one on the right has been cut to length and seated.  The middle one has just had the setting tool used on it. You can see how it has been compacted down and spread out at the base, but it is still VERY straight and not bent at a weird angle. The last rivet is shown after forming the head.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/002e-Rivets3-2-DSC_0323Sm.jpg)

Here's a couple more practice rows done.  This three tool approach works really well!  You can see that in the middle of the top row I didn't keep the head forming tool centered - it jumped off the head and I kept pounding away.  I was more careful of that with the rest of the rivets.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/002e-Rivets3-3-DSC_0325Sm.jpg)

Here's the inside of the rivets. Top left one has that same problem - I didn't keep the bottom head in the right place on the anvil.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/002e-Rivets3-4-DSC_0327Sm.jpg)

Using this tried and true three tool method, setting the rivets went very well, despite a few blunders.  And even though it was hard not to move forward with the build, I'm glad I spent one more session working this out.  I think it will really help as I move forward.

Thanks for taking a look,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Don1966 on September 13, 2015, 12:39:55 AM
Your doing great Kim, just keep practicing until your comfortable doing it. The three tools is almost a must for proper rivet setting and I am surprised Ruby didn't mention it in his book.
A hint on using your new torch, you should have an assortment of torch tips. Start with a smallest tip and low flame and increase it as you need it. Once you get use to it, it will be second nature.

Don
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: fumopuc on September 13, 2015, 05:56:39 AM
Hi Kim, thanks for showing your learning curve. Something I have to keep in mind.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on September 13, 2015, 06:27:06 AM
Thanks Don and Achim,

Yeah, for me, its ALL practice.  I'm excited to start using it on the model.

Thanks for the advice on the new torch Don.  I was just using the tip it came with (a #0).  I''ve ordered the #00, and the #000 which I think will be important for the size of work I do.  But needless to say, they haven't arrived.  Yet another new toy to learn how to use.  More fun! :)

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Jasonb on September 13, 2015, 07:45:04 AM
Kim, looking at that cut rivit  I would say you have them too long, for a normal half round "snap head" rivit you need approx 1.5Dia, yours being flatter probably need less.

I've never felt the need to use an intermediate tool, the first tool is actually called the "set" not the second one.

May be worth looking further afield for some softer copper rivits, we can get them 1/16" and 3/64" which woul dbe either side of your 18g
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on September 13, 2015, 04:02:25 PM
Thanks Jason,  I'll get my terminology straight someday!

So the first tool is called a set.  What's the intermediate tool called?  Does it have a specific name?  Or the third one (the head forming one)?

At this point, I've got a process that I'm fairly pleased with, and have the items I need to execute to that. So for this project, I think I'll just go with the brass pin's I've got.

But you are right, I think I'm leaving too much material when I cut them.  I was aiming for about 1.2x diameter, but again, I think that's too much. Maybe I'll try 1x and see how that goes.  If I do that, I'll have to make my second tool shallower though. Its 1x diameter deep now.  I'll have to shave that down to .7x or .8x diameter.

And thanks for all your help on the riveting, and terminology and such. I really appreciate it!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Dan Rowe on September 13, 2015, 04:06:45 PM
Kim,
I always make a gauge to cut the rivets to length. I simply take a piece of stock 1.5 times the diameter of the rivet body and drill a rivet hole in it.
Install the rivet and then the gauge and use a flush cutter to get consistent results.

Dan
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Jasonb on September 13, 2015, 04:51:24 PM
The final tool is known as the "snap". I'm not sure if there is a tern for the intermediate as they only seem to be used by some model engineers rather than something that is used in engineering.

As I said 1.5D is a good general starting point for a normal "snap" head rivit though the actual allowance for BS small rivits is 1.429D but this does depend on teh actual snap you are using and also how close a fit the rivit is in the hole. Thats why its best to start at 1.5D and adjust to suit your work.

http://www.sapphireproducts.co.uk/641t1.htm
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on September 14, 2015, 05:39:16 AM
Thanks Jason!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Bearcar1 on September 14, 2015, 05:30:50 PM
What a terrific thread outlining the trials and tribulations on the art of setting rivets. Thanks Kim. I have yet to attach the gaiters to the rear wheel rims and this is helping me to see what to, and what not-to do in the process. I'm enjoying this tremendously..


BC1
Jim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: AOG on September 14, 2015, 06:43:53 PM
I work in aviation and the formula we use for the length of the rivet is 1.5D of the hole. When done right the shop head of the rivet should be 1.5D of the hole wide and between .5 and .65D tall.

Tony
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on October 03, 2015, 06:02:27 PM
TThanks Jim and Tony! Sorry for the long delay in response here.

Wow, I just checked, and it's been 3 weeks since I posted an update!  I've not had a lot of time to work, but I have made some progress.  So let me take a moment and catch my build log up to present.

After my 'riveting interlude' I'm ready to get back to making the rear wheels.  A few episodes back, I made the rims for the wheels, now I need to make holes for all the spokes.  Here's how I tackled that problem.

I took a scrap of plywood, roughed out a circle of about the right size on my scroll saw, then put it on my lathe and turned it down to a tight fit for the rear wheel rims.  This was a mess. I got wood dust all over my nice clean lathe!  :o
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/003a-RearWheelHubs-1-DSC_0332Sm.jpg)

Next, I moved that assembly over to the rotary table.  I added a screw in the middle of the wooden disk to keep from turning on the RT, then trued it up on the mill.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/003a-RearWheelHubs-2-DSC_0338Sm.jpg)

With this setup I proceeded t drill 3/32" holes every 30 degrees around the rim.  After the first hole, I put a little screw through the rim into the wooden disk to prevent the rim from slipping.  I also wedged a piece of scrap under the outer edge of the rim to provide some support while drilling.  The Sherline RT was JUST barely big enough to handle this. The wheel rim is 4.5" in diameter. And while that cleared the base of the RT, the screw I put in the rim didn't.  So I had to move that screw to different holes as I rotated the wheel.  This made the whole operation a little more interesting.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/003a-RearWheelHubs-3-DSC_0348Sm.jpg)

After completing the 12 holes on the inside, I moved to the outer side and drilled the next 12 holes. These were also drilled every 30 degrees, but 15 degrees out of sync with the other side.  This shot shows all the spoke holes complete.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/003a-RearWheelHubs-4-DSC_0355Sm.jpg)

With the wheels complete, it was time to make the hubs.  These started as 1" round brass rod.  This is a shot just after I drilled and reamed the 1/4" hole for the rear axle.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/003a-RearWheelHubs-5-DSC_0356Sm.jpg)

Then I took the center of the hub down to 1/2" alternating between LH and RH tools.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/003a-RearWheelHubs-6-DSC_0360Sm.jpg)

And finally, parted it off the stock.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/003a-RearWheelHubs-7-DSC_0366Sm.jpg)

Following parting off, I flipped it around in the 4-jaw and faced off the newly parted end to get it flat, and to size.  Do other people have that problem? When I make a parting cut, it always leaves a bit of a convex surface.  Always. No matter how carefully I line up the parting tool, the cut just doesn't come out flat.  Its probably got a 10-15 thousandths dome.  Is it because of the slight bevel on the parting tool?  Its not a big deal, I just part a little long and face off to the right length.  I'm just curious if I'm doing something terribly wrong, or if this is standard practice for others too.
One hub done:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/003a-RearWheelHubs-8-DSC_0368Sm.jpg)

And here's my preview of what it will look like, eventually!  Imagine 24 brass spokes in there!  Looks pretty good, eh? :)
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/003a-RearWheelHubs-9-DSC_0370Sm.jpg)

After turning the 2nd hub, I needed to drill the holes for the spokes.  Here's the setup I came up with for that:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/003a-RearWheelHubs-10-DSC_0382Sm.jpg)

I was pretty please with myself till I realized I was too close to the end of travel on the x-axis and I couldn't reach the outside edge of the hub :(  So I spent the next hour of shop time moving the whole setup an inch to the left and squaring everything up again.  This time, it worked.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/003a-RearWheelHubs-11-DSC_0385Sm.jpg)

Here's the first 12 spoke holes spotted.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/003a-RearWheelHubs-12-DSC_0386Sm.jpg)

And here's all 24 of them drilled.  Again, the holes on the far side are 15 degrees off from the holes on the near side.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/003a-RearWheelHubs-13-DSC_0392Sm.jpg)

Next I drilled and tapped a 6-32 hole for a set screw in each hub, did a little clean up, and there you have it; two shiny new rear wheel hubs:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/003a-RearWheelHubs-14-DSC_0394Sm.jpg)

I cut 24 spokes from 3/32" brass rod and did a quick test assembly; now you don't even have to imagine the spokes!  Looks even better than I'd imagined! :)
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/003a-RearWheelHubs-15-DSC_0400Sm.jpg)

Next up is figuring out how to solder them in place.  Rudy says you can just soft solder these in place, but I'm thinking I will try and silver solder.  Its time for me to stop being scared of silver soldering.

Thanks for watching!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Dave Otto on October 03, 2015, 07:31:16 PM
Hi Kim

You have been busy and the parts look great!

I think silver soldering those thin brass spokes to the rather heavy steel rim may end up being a real challenge; possibly keeping the heat only on the outside of the rim to avoid over heating the spoke may help. Might be a good idea to make up some test parts and give it a try.

I think I would go for the low temp route and use Harris Sta-Brite solder and Sta-Clean paste flux.

Dave
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Don1966 on October 03, 2015, 07:49:44 PM
Hi Kim, glad to see some progress on your tractor. The parts look great and like Dave said practice on a piece but use a scrap the same size so you can judge the heat needed. Keep the torch concentrated on the steel wheel and not the spokes. Move you flame in and out as you heat.  Make sure it is well cleaned before soldering and apply flux to each spoke points inside and outside areas.
As for the parting make sure you blade is square to the axis of the lathe and is at least .0625diameter. Use a slow feed when cutting. I get those convex shapes also when cutting brass. The wider the blade the less it will flex.

Regards Don
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: fcheslop on October 03, 2015, 10:50:28 PM
Hi Kim, the parts look well :ThumbsUp: Following with interest as its on my build list
hard soldering may be a bit messy. I plan on following Rudy and simply soft soldering just make sure the parts are very clean over here I will be using Bakers fluid(killed spirits) when the parts are clean enough it will wet the surface and not form little globules .I plan on forming the solder wire into small rings one for each end of the spoke and putting a small counter sink for the solder to form into or I may use solder paint on assembly.
The parting tool for brass needs to be very sharp or at least thats what Iv found and I tend to use a fast feed but dont know whats recommended.
cheers
frazer
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on October 03, 2015, 11:23:34 PM
Nice update and the wheels look great. Soldering the spikes to the hub should go well. Soldering the spokes to the rims will definitely take more heat. I agree with Don and Dave, a practice session would be good.

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on October 04, 2015, 06:18:31 AM
Thanks for the helpful comments Dave, Done, Frazer, and Bill,

Hmm... Lots of smart people are recommending the soft solder for this, so I may need to reconsider!  :thinking: Today I did some experimenting on the hard soldering.  I tried to use similar parts, but they weren't exactly the same. I was thinking it was coming out fairly well, but I only had 1/16" steel rather than the 1/8" steel that the real part will be. That's probably a pretty big difference right there. More practice is certainly in order.

I'll post some pics of my practice soon and you can see how I'm doing.  I'll try some 1/8" steel too. I can certainly get the heat - I've recently picked up an Oxy-Acetylene torch. That really puts out the heat fast!  But I guess the worry is melting the brass spokes away before I get the steel up to temp!

Maybe soft solder would be best here.  And it would likely make less of a mess, which I'm finding a challenge to clean up between all those spokes!

Thanks for all the great comments!
And thanks again for the wonderful Dinner, Bill! :)
Kim

 
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on October 04, 2015, 03:31:26 PM
Kim, lately I have had some nice results using the silver bearing soft solder from PMR, along with the liquid flux they supply with it. I haven't verified, but have been told you can get the same stuff via your local welding supply store. Maybe someone can add the brand name for it. Might be worth a try.

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on October 04, 2015, 03:45:01 PM
Thanks Bill,

Dave recommended the Harris Stay Brite solder and Stay Clean flux, which is listed as silver bearing solder.  I've found that on Amazon and was going to give that a try.  If anyone has any other recommendations, I'd be happy to hear!

Thanks,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Don1966 on October 04, 2015, 05:18:31 PM
Kim this is what works for me it's weldcote easy flow 56% silver. Believe me this stuff flows beautifully. They also sell the flux.

Don
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Dave Otto on October 04, 2015, 05:32:13 PM
The Harris Sta-Brite is a silver bearing solder; this would be the low temp. soft solder option. It melts and flows at ~ 430 degrees F.
If I'm going to soft solder something it is my go to product.

They do make a liquid flux but the paste flux is much easier to deal with; also it turns a dark caramel color when the temp is correct. Cleans up easily with strong detergent and hot water.
When doing fine work on little parts I will pound it out flat and cut it into thin slivers with scissors.

Dave
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on October 04, 2015, 05:38:28 PM
I think Dave and I are talking about the same solder, the only difference being the flux, liquid vs. paste. Good stuff either way. IIRC its 4% silver.

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on October 05, 2015, 02:53:37 AM
Here are the pictures of my silver soldering attempts from yesterday that I threatened you with.

This is my test assembly setup for heating. I cleaned the parts, got flux on them, and placed a bit of silver solder right at each joint.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/004a-Soldering-1-DSC_0409Sm.jpg)

On my first attempt, I made lots of mistakes.  First, I used too much solder - I put pieces above and below the wheel, and that was too much.  Also, I tried to do a bunch of joints at one time. Bad idea.  Some places got so hot that the brass rod melted (lower right) and others just didn't get enough heat.  Most of the spokes just pulled right out.  Not so good, but it was my first try.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/004a-Soldering-2-DSC_0413Sm.jpg)

I switched to a smaller tip (a #000 - I had been using a #0) and worked on a single joint at a time, only put 1/2 a circle of solder ABOVE the joint, and heated it up from the underside.  That went much better.  No picture, but it was better!  (Bill, that's the test piece you saw last night :))
Following these initial experiments, I packed up and got ready to go have dinner with Bill.

That was yesterday.

Today, after reading all the comments and recommendations I went back for some more practice.  I got a test piece that more closely matched the joint I would be doing -  1/8" steel rather than the 1/16".  And I attacked each joint one at a time, and this time, I stood the wheel up on end so that I had gravity working for me when the solder started flowing.  Here's my setup - Flux & solder)
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/004a-Soldering-3-DSC_0416Sm.jpg)

The thicker steel took significantly longer to heat up the joints (he says, stating the obvious :)), but I was actually quite pleased with how the joints turned out. 
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/004a-Soldering-4-DSC_0417Sm.jpg)

After doing 6 of these, here's where I was:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/004a-Soldering-5-DSC_0431Sm.jpg)

You can see that the top left joint is very poor.  In fact, the spoke just dropped out.  I think that I'd taken so long to heat this one that the flux burned off and the metal oxidized before it got to the melting temp.
After that, I tried a few more, and a bunch of these joints I did with soft solder.  That actually worked out pretty well.  It was much easier to do, went faster and didn't make such a mess.

Here's the test piece after some rough cleanup.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/004a-Soldering-6-DSC_0440Sm.jpg)

I think I'm about ready to do the real thing now.  I've ordered some of that Stay Brite solder that Dave & Bill have recommended. It should be here by next weekend when I'll have more time to work!

Thanks for following along on my (painfully slow) adventures!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Don1966 on October 05, 2015, 03:39:09 AM
Hi Kim,
   Well you did try the silver solder, but you didn't heed my warning about using the lowest heat first and keep the heat on the large part.  You learned that on the first attempt. Looks like the second tip was doing pretty good. The small ring of solder around the spoke is great. The one question I have is, was the hole the same size as the spoke or bigger? The hole has to be bigger to acquire solder into the hole. The flux should not burn off before the solder reaches melting point. This could be because you used the wrong flux. It should look wet when you reach the melting point of the solder. Doing one spoke at a time is the correct way to go about soldering it, but you have to keep the flame off the metal after you see the solder flowing or you could over heat it. Then you will start getting oxidation because you are getting it to hot. Less heat is better because less chance of overheating until you learn to control the heat by moving the torch in and out as needed. Kim I hope you continue to experiment with the silver solder and you will see it is not as hard as you think. Using easy flow silver solder or high silver content helps to get you where you want. I use to cringe when I first started to silver solder until I learned how easy it can be. Preparation is the number one step to good soldering. That involves clean metal, good control of your heat, good solder and flux,a good setup so you can get to all points in one setting, an a good train of thoughts..... ( in other words, don't panic)  :lolb:

Regards Don
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on October 05, 2015, 05:37:57 AM
Hi Don,
True.  Though I "THOUGHT" I was using low heat.  I thought I'd put on the smallest tip, I just happened to get the wrong one.  And I've got so little experience with my new torch, I didn't catch my mistake for a while. :embarassed:

And unfortunately, even with the best advise, I often find I make mistakes anyway, and THEN I understand what the advise means and can apply it better (if that makes any sense).

It may be the thickness of the material I'm soldering, but I found that sometimes, when the solder started to flow, the far side of the joint wasn't hot enough to get the solder to flow all around (apparently I haven't got the 'even heating' down fully yet), so I had to heat more on the other side.  I think this is when I sometimes ended up with the joints that that didn't solder well. So it might be as you describe - I held the heat on too long and caused the oxidization that way.  I'm getting better, but still quite the novice at the silver soldering.

As for the size of the hole, its drilled with a 3/32" bit, but its nice slip fit.  The solder seems to wick through the hole and all around the spoke quite well (at least, when I've done the other parts correctly! :)).

I think soft solder is a much better way to go with this assembly, as you and others advised!

I really do appreciate the advise. Even if it doesn't always look like I'm following it, I do try, and I am learning!  :-\
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: fumopuc on October 05, 2015, 06:08:07 AM

..........
And unfortunately, even with the best advise, I often find I make mistakes anyway, and THEN I understand what the advise means and can apply it better (if that makes any sense).


Hi Kim, that´s the way I always do it like too.
When I have trained my solder skills it took some time to understand what it means  to heat the material and not the solder.
And also the advice, solder will always flow into the direction of the heat.
In your case, I would do the set up similar to yours. Some solder into the flux at the inside of the rim.
The heat will come only from the outside of the rim and only around the spoke, so never direct to the spoke or the gap between spoke and rim.
If the rim around the spoke will get the right temperature, the solder will come from the inside of the rim through the small gap around the spoke against the heat from itself.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Nicolas on October 05, 2015, 07:16:21 AM
Will definitely be following this. Looks like you're off to a good start :)
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Jasonb on October 05, 2015, 08:08:20 AM
Thats one of teh problems with using Oxy, it is a very local heat so you may have one part hot enough for the solder to flow but not all of it.

The other problem with using heat on a wheel rim rather than test pieces is the fact the rim will expand as you heat it and move away from the hub, this then gives you problems as it cools and the spoke can't slide back out of the hole. Soft solder will put a lot less heat into the rim so less expansion.

My Galloway cart has the ends of the spokes soft soldered and they support a far heavier engine (50lbs) than your tractor. There are also a lot less spokes.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on October 05, 2015, 04:18:38 PM
Achim, Nicolas, and Jason,
Thanks much for the comments and support!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Don1966 on October 05, 2015, 10:55:04 PM
Hi Kim, I hope I wasn't to harsh with you, if I was you have my apologies my friend. I do know your learning and I hope you continue to challenge yourself with every project you build. I need to tone myself down a bit and just follow.

Regards Don
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on October 06, 2015, 06:14:26 AM
Hi Kim, I hope I wasn't to harsh with you, if I was you have my apologies my friend. I do know your learning and I hope you continue to challenge yourself with every project you build. I need to tone myself down a bit and just follow.

NO!  Not at all Don!  All I every feel from you is helpfulness and encouragement!  All I was trying to express is that I'm a rather slow student.  :-\

Its my turn to apologize if I made my post sound any other way.

I truly appreciate, and need, all the advise you and others provide.

Thank you for taking the time to respond so often to my questions, confusions, and difficulties.  Heaven knows I have a lot of them! :)

Thank you Don!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: kvom on October 06, 2015, 03:37:51 PM
Just an observation:  once the spokes are fastened to the hubs there is no way that they can move at the rim.  You could just cut them off flush without any other fastening.  Alternatively, make the length extend just past the rim's edge, use a center drill to make a slight depression in the end, and peen them to the rim with a punch.

Even easier, use green loctite at the hub and/or rim.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on October 17, 2015, 09:35:00 PM
Thanks for the comments kvom!  Sorry for my belated reply.  It's been a busy few weeks and I haven't had much play time.  I was able to steal a bit of time today, but not much. Anyway, here's my questionable progress.

Attempting to follow all the excellent advice I've received, and the little experience I've gained on my soldering technique, I cleaned all the parts for the first wheel VERY well.  All bright and shiny!

Then I made rings of Stay Bright solder (silver bearing, low tem solder), and used the Stay Clean past flux,  and got each joint ready.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/004b-Soldering-1-DSC_0441Sm.jpg)

I decided to start on the hub, thinking that it would hold all the spokes in as I worked on the outer rim.  I was planning on doing the hub joints in several sections - maybe 3-4 joints per heat session, that way the joints could be facing up and I'd have gravity to help the solder flow down.

So, I carefully applied the heat.  It mostly worked. But of course, many thing went wrong.  It started out great, but as I moved to other sections, the flux would boil, popping the spokes out of their holes. And the joints that were facing down would get too hot and the solder wicked together to make a big blob.  Anyway, I think I got it. I'll just have a good clean up job to do here.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/004b-Soldering-2-DSC_0447Sm.jpg)

I'm thinking that a full circle of solder on each spoke might have been too much?  Maybe? Though most of the joints look great.  I've got that one ugly blob there.

After I did the hubs, the outer rims were much easier. I could do them one at a time (ish).  I would do 4, then turn the wheel.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/004b-Soldering-3-DSC_0450Sm.jpg)

Clearly, the person who did this soldering job was a rank armature. :embarassed:  But I think after clean up, it should look passable.

Hopefully the next one will go better.  I think I may do the outer rim first next time, so that the spokes are more likely to stay in place when I solder the hub.  Does that sound reasonable?

Thanks,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on October 17, 2015, 09:48:13 PM
Looks good to me Kim, the clean up will make a surprising difference. Just a thought, what if you had laid the wheel on its side to solder the spokes into the hub. Heat applied to the end of the hub would likely have gotten things hot enough to melt them all at once or very close together at least. With the flux and solder rings, I suspect enough would have remained at the joint to secure things quite well.

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Don1966 on October 17, 2015, 11:06:26 PM
Looks good to me also Kim, not bad for a first at all. You could put a band around the spokes sticking out to keep them in place till soldered and could trim them closer. Or do as Bill suggest, but I am not sure how much pressure it would apply to the hub. Maybe placing it on another ring would help keep pressure off the hub.
One bit of advice I want to give you. I would of left the hub bore under size in the event that the wheel doesn't run true, but you could always bore it and put a sleeve if it doesn't.

Don
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: ICEpeter on October 18, 2015, 12:02:49 AM
Hello Kim,
Have a dumb question: Why couldn't you do your soldering by laying the wheel flat onto one side and solder the first side that way. Then turn it over onto the other side and solder the other side. In my opinion, that would have avoided the blob(s) of solder running down and puddling because of gravity pulling the solder that way, and, if the solder would still be running to one side (the underside) it would not puddle in one spot but under each spoke, maybe. Just my thought.

Peter J.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Dave Otto on October 18, 2015, 12:16:55 AM
Hi Kim

Doesn't look too bad to me either; only a couple things. As you have have figured out the ring of solder is way to much for that small joint. I would just feed it in from the roll when the parts are the proper temperature. Also as you probably know now the flux turns a nice caramel color when it is the proper temp; if it turns black you got it too hot.

You should be able to melt the solder by touching it to the metal with the flame removed; if not your parts are not hot enough yet.

As for the blob just heat it up and flick the excess away with an acid brush; you can add some flux and re-flow it to smooth it out.

The next one will go better.
Dave
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on October 18, 2015, 02:37:34 AM
Bill, Don, Peter, and Dave,  thank you for your excellent comments!  You have some excellent suggestions for tuning-up my process here.  Laying the wheel on its side would probably help decrease the blobbing issue, as would using less solder.

I also think it might help the issue I just discovered tonight - as I mounted the wheel in the lathe for a little power assisted cleanup, I found that the wheel is WAY out of whack!
Needless to say, I was very disappointed.  :(

The hub is more than 1/16" off center and there is an awesome in/out left/right wobble going on. 
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/004b-Soldering-4-DSC_0457Sm.jpg)

I played around trying to heat up the rim enough to move the wheel, but that's just too hard.  I could go to a bigger tip to get more heat, but I don't know how I'd move it in any controlled way to get it centered.

After crying in my milk for a while, I came up with this plan:

Do the 2nd wheel lying flat.
Do only one end of the spokes on one side first, and check for concentricity.
Do the other end of the same side and check for concentricity again.
Do the same for the other side.

Assuming I can get the 2nd wheel better, then I will probably just cut all the spokes on the 2nd wheel, which will make it possible to get them all out one at a time.  Then I'll clean up the rim and the hub, and try it again.

If you have better suggestions, please feel free to share! :)

Thank you for following along, and for all your help!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: ogaryd on October 18, 2015, 03:33:23 AM
Hi Kim, I think I would build a simple fixture to hold things true while soldering.     Gary
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on October 18, 2015, 06:49:10 AM
Hi Gary,
Thanks for the suggestion - I like it a lot!  Now I'll have to cogitate on that a while to come up with a simple, but elegant fixture to use for this.

Should have been obvious, but Rudy doesn't suggest that in his instructions, nor have I seen anyone else use a fixture for this job.  Maybe I just need more help than the average model engineer... :)

Thanks,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Jasonb on October 18, 2015, 07:55:59 AM
Kim, the usual way to assemble model traction engine wheels is to do them on their side. Make a central post to hold the hub in place and two or three clamps to locate the rim so it stays concentric to the hub. If there is any dishing on the wheel then pack the hub up as needed.

File a small flat onto the hub end of teh spoke so any excess flux can escape rather than have it act like a piston.

Flux the lot and work round feeding in the wire. For jobs like this I like "solder paste" that is flux mixed with finely ground soft solder, just brush it onto the joint like you would the flux and apply heat.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on October 18, 2015, 03:57:06 PM
Thanks Jason,
That certainly sounds like the way to go!
KIm
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: ogaryd on October 18, 2015, 06:17:33 PM
Kim, I forgot to mention, I wouldn't recommend aluminum for your fixture. It acts like a heat sink And wicks the heat away. Hardwood would probably work fine for this project. Gary
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on October 18, 2015, 08:08:20 PM
Hmm... I'd considered using wood, but that seemed like a bad idea when I'm going to be holding a flame right next to it.  I was definitely planning to minimize surface area contact with any metal.  Is wood really a viable option for something like this?
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on October 18, 2015, 10:22:52 PM
Kim, you might check out this website for soldering boards, they have a wide selection of sizes and materials. I have bought from them before with good results.

https://contenti.com/soldering-n-joining/soldering-tools/soldering-boards

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on October 26, 2015, 03:55:07 AM
Thanks Bill.  I've got a soldering board like this, but can you drill holes in them and build fixtures on them?  I hand't considered that.  As you'll see, I went a slightly different route...

After the fiasco of my first wheel soldering job, I decided to heed all the excellent advise I received and build a soldering jig to hold things in place while I soldered the spokes to the hub & rim.

Here's how I solved my jig problem. While it may not have been the ideal solution, it seemed to give me a pretty tolerable result.  MUCH better than my first attempt!

To make my jig, I cut two 5" lengths of 1/2" square CRS.  I milled a notch in the center of these two and then put them together like an "X".  I wasn't smart enough to remember to get a picture of this, but hopefully it will make sense when you see the pictures below.

I took my X and using my cool new Oxy-Acetylene torch, I welded these two pieces together.  This was kinda fun!  It's my first ever real welding job.  I'm sure it looks terrible, but I'm just unduly pleased with it. Hope it gives all you experienced welders a good chuckle :) Anyway, It doesn't much matter what it looks like, as long as it holds the jig together! :)
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/004c-Soldering-1-DSC_0459Sm.jpg)

Then I mounted it to the mill table, leveled it as best I could (note the shim on the front right) and milled it flat.  Then I flipped it over and milled the other side.   This gave me a nice flat surface to hold the rim and hub against.  I think this was one of my biggest problems the first time - I didn't keep the rim and hub parallel, or even in the same plane!
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/004c-Soldering-2-DSC_0461Sm.jpg)

Then I carefully drilled holes at the appropriate spots and put pegs in to hold the hub and rim in place, like so:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/004c-Soldering-3-DSC_0465Sm.jpg)

And here's how it looks with the rim and hub:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/004c-Soldering-4-DSC_0467Sm.jpg)

With my new jig in hand, I prepared one set of spokes for soldering.  I also put a metal band around the spokes to help keep them from popping out when the flux boiled.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/004c-Soldering-5-DSC_0471Sm.jpg)

Then I lit up the torch and went to work.  On my first try I didn't move the torch enough and started to melt one of the spokes!  :o  I quickly replaced that spoke and made sure to move the flame around and keep the direct flame off the skinny little spokes.  Here's the first side of the hub soldered up.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/004c-Soldering-6-DSC_0473Sm.jpg)

I proceeded to take the band off and solder around the outside of the wheel, heating up the rim from the back side, and applying solder, by hand from the front. This worked very well! (Thanks for the tip Dave).

Here's the completed wheel after a little pickling bath.  It still needs some clean-up, but its far better than the first one.  And it runs MUCH more true.  There's still a little run-out (not much, I can live with this) but NO wobble. I'm quite pleased. :)
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/004c-Soldering-7-DSC_0477Sm.jpg)

Next step: carefully demolish the first wheel, while (hopefully) keeping the rim and hub usable!

Thanks for all your help, advise, and encouragement!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Dave Otto on October 26, 2015, 01:23:54 PM
Nice work Kim!

Dave
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Don1966 on October 26, 2015, 03:18:32 PM
Awesome Kim you did it buddy........... :pinkelephant: the wheel looks great and you should be quiet pleased with yourself. On the wheel runout for next time, make the hole in the hub smaller so when you check the run out you can rebore to the correct dimenisions and correct it.  :praise2:



Don
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on October 26, 2015, 03:56:48 PM
Wow!! That looks great Kim and should make the process far easier to control now for sure!!

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on October 26, 2015, 06:47:10 PM
In the words of the great Foghorn Leghorn: "I say, I say,  the boy boy catches on fast,   now don't he"  :). Kim, that is looking great.  I'm betting the full scale ones had a small amount of wobble in the wheel,  now you just have to figure that in the scale of model  8).  :popcorn: :DrinkPint:, I'm here  :cheers:.

Cletus
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: fumopuc on October 26, 2015, 07:57:13 PM
Hi Kim, you are on the right way. It is taking shape. Experience has to be made by yourself. It is good to get tips but learning by making mistakes by myself is my prefered way.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on October 26, 2015, 11:17:19 PM
Thanks Dave, Don, Bill, Cletus, and Achim, for the kind and encouraging replies! :)
I really appreciate it! And I appreciate all the advice and help from everyone to get me here!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: TerryWerm on October 31, 2015, 10:35:09 PM
Has anyone built one of these by threading the holes in the hubs and threading the spokes to match? Silver soldering the spokes at the rim would lock them in place but it would eliminate the problems of trying to silver solder the spokes at the hub.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Jasonb on November 01, 2015, 07:33:13 AM
I've done it with wheels for Hit & miss engine carts, screwed to the hub and soft soldered at the rim. I did not go for silver solder as the rim expands a lot more due to the higher temperature and could give problems when it cools and contracts.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Hit%20n%20Miss/1-3rd%20Galloway/IMAG2243_zps8e2cea75.jpg)

I have seen larger scale wheels done by fixing the rim end with a TIG weld which keeps the heat localised
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Bearcar1 on November 01, 2015, 04:50:45 PM
Yes, I threaded the hubs and added nuts to simulate tensioners. It was a bit more work and rather fiddly, but it turned out OK.
BC1
Jim

Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on November 02, 2015, 05:41:34 AM
Interesting fabrication methods for the wheels.

Jim, those are some beautiful looking wheels you made there!  You're right, the extra effort really did pay off in the looks!

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on November 04, 2015, 04:40:23 PM
My next task was to re-do my first wheel - the one that was way out of whack.

To do this, I cut all the spokes then heated things up to remove the short spoke pieces from the hub and the rim. This was followed by an extensive session of cleaning up the solder mess on the parts I wanted to keep.

After that chore, l soldered the wheel back together with new spokes and it went even better than the last one!  It would seem that experience helps a lot with this sort of thing :)

With both wheels soldered, I had to clean up the spoke ends that poked out of the rim.  To do this, I put the assembled wheel on a 1/4" mandrel and carefully filed off the spoke nubs.  I put some tape around the center of the wheel to keep from gouging it while filing.  I did this one spoke at a time with the lathe not under power, simply acting as a holding device.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/005a-RearWheelCleanup-1-DSC_0494Sm.jpg)

After the bulk of the nubs were removed I powered up the lathe and used some files & sand paper to clean up the rim.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/005a-RearWheelCleanup-2-DSC_0489Sm.jpg)

Cleaning up the inside of the rim and the hub presented a problem.  It was hard to get to. I tried lots of things but my final (and best?) solution was to make a small fiber disk for my dremel, that would fit between the spokes.  To do this, I cannibalized an abrasive wheel/ball/thing that I got from Harbor Freight for a few bucks.  I took it apart and removed one of the disks from that stack.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/005a-RearWheelCleanup-3-DSC_0496Sm.jpg)

Then I cut little circles from it (I used that washer as a template)...
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/005a-RearWheelCleanup-4-DSC_0497Sm.jpg)

And mounted them on a little arbor for the dremmel.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/005a-RearWheelCleanup-5-DSC_0498Sm.jpg)

Apparently I didn't get a picture of it in action (hard to do by myself) but it worked fairly well to clean up the harder to reach spots.  Not to Don's standard of metal jewelry, but it passes my (fairly lax) QC department!
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/005a-RearWheelCleanup-6-DSC_0501Sm.jpg)

The next step will be to cut and mount the grouters!

Thanks for looking in,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: joe d on November 04, 2015, 05:09:17 PM
Those wheels look good to me, Kim   :ThumbsUp:

Happily following along.

Cheers, Joe
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on November 04, 2015, 06:02:22 PM
Those look amazing Kim. Nice idea using the abrasive discs for cleaning up the inside of the wheels too!! From the looks of it they did a nice job of clean up too.

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Bearcar1 on November 04, 2015, 06:44:10 PM
Fine looking set of wheels you made there Kim  :ThumbsUp:  I also like what you did with the abrasive scrubbing disc, well done. If and when the time ever comes, make a note to yourself. In the cosmetics department at Jewel or the like, one can find an assortment of foam based emory boards that the ladies use on their finger/toe nails to assist in keeping those talons razor sharp. They are just right to conform to curves and what not and the grits are fine enough that one does not gouge the underlying material.  The ultra-fine ones can almost provide a polished surface. Tally HO!!  :DrinkPint:


BC1
Jim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on November 04, 2015, 06:50:56 PM
Here is the link to what Jim is noting. I was put onto them by Don and they work great. You can buy individual grits or assorted grits in sets of four. I wouldn't be without them now!!

http://micro-surface.com/index.php/products-by-type/dual-angle-detailing-files/dual-angle-micro-mesh-regular-files.html

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on November 04, 2015, 07:15:50 PM
Thanks Joe, Bill, and Jim!

Those look like helpful little items to have around!  I don't know if I'm willing to commit to that level of shine for this project, but its always good to have more tools. You never know when it will come in handy!

Thanks,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Don1966 on November 05, 2015, 12:36:04 AM

Apparently I didn't get a picture of it in action (hard to do by myself) but it worked fairly well to clean up the harder to reach spots.  Not to Don's standard of metal jewelry, but it passes my (fairly lax) QC department!
Kim the wheels are a treat buddy, they came out great and your well on your way. You are right practice makes perfect and the more you solder the easier it will get.
Now about you standard it does not have to be like mine. It's what your comfortable with that counts. You have to set your own standards as to what quality you are happy with after all it's your project. I find that as I progress in building that I want things at higher standards then my last project. By taking on more and more challenging projects I want better standards, if that makes any sense.

Don
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Dave Otto on November 05, 2015, 01:13:06 AM
Hey Kim,

The wheels cleaned up and look great, nice work!

I completely agree with Don; I believe that it is good to push yourself and work on more challenging and difficult projects as you progress. I'm working on projects and doing things that I never believed possible a number of years ago. You are doing just this by tackling the traction engine project, and you will no doubt be completely successful in this project.

Looking forward to seeing more.

Dave
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: fumopuc on November 05, 2015, 06:00:04 AM
Hi Kim, some nice looking wheels. As Dave said already, today I am doing/making things, which I thought some years ago, would be impossible for me.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on November 06, 2015, 03:53:25 PM
Thanks Don, Dave, and Achim,
Appreciate the encouragement!
As you say, I'm learning a lot with this project and having a blast at the same time. What could be better? :)

KIm
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on November 23, 2015, 04:31:33 AM
It's been several weeks since my last update, but I've been plodding along. So this will be a fairly big update.

To make the grouters, I use 22GA sheet metal. Placing my HF bandsaw in the vertical mode, I cut two strips 1.5" wide and about 12" long.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/006a-Grouters-01-DSC_0506Sm.jpg)

I double-sticky tapped those two together and milled them to 1.5" wide - the same width as the rear wheels.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/006a-Grouters-02-DSC_0508Sm.jpg)

Then I cut a ~67.5 degree angle on one end, and trued it up on the disk sander.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/006a-Grouters-03-DSC_0517Sm.jpg)

Using that angle as a guide, I cut a 1/4" strip off the end.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/006a-Grouters-04-DSC_0522Sm.jpg)

I did that a whole bunch of times. While the band saw cut wasn't exact, it was pretty close.  And to help out, between each cut, I cleaned up the end of the stock on the disk sander to make sure my angle was staying true.

Here are 28 double thick grouters.  I only need 24 per wheel, but I wanted some extras for the mistakes I'm bound to make.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/006a-Grouters-05-DSC_0531Sm.jpg)

After separating the double stacks, I drilled holes in each end of all 48 (plus the extra) grouters.  I carefully set the hole 3/32" in from the edge.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/006a-Grouters-06-DSC_0540Sm.jpg)

Here's a big pile of them after drilling the holes, but before clean up. You can see the wicked burr around each hole.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/006a-Grouters-07-DSC_0546Sm.jpg)

After FAR too many hours filing and cleaning up the grouters, I divided them into 'left' and 'right'. The wheels are 'handed'. The grouters point opposite directions in each wheel, and I picked the 24 that looked best on one side for the left wheel, and the 24 that looked best on the other side for the right wheel.  The spares laying about randomly.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/006a-Grouters-08-DSC_0555Sm.jpg)

Then I took one of the wheels and drilled 24 rivet holes carefully spaced around one side of the left wheel.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/006a-Grouters-09-DSC_0560Sm.jpg)

And started riveting the grouters to the wheel...
First step, countersink the edge around the holes in the grouter to give the rivet something to hold onto. These rivets will be filed flush after I'm done attaching all the grouters.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/006a-Grouters-10-DSC_0583Sm.jpg)

Then rivet one side onto the wheel. (no picture, oops!)

Then, using the grouter as a guide, drill the hole in the far side of the wheel for the 2nd rivet.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/006a-Grouters-15-DSC_0572Sm.jpg)

Now rivet the second side.
My process for riveting each side is, of course, the same.
First, set the rivet, so that its up close and personal with the far side:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/006a-Grouters-11-DSC_0585Sm.jpg)

Then using a thickness gauge, as was recommended, I cut the rivet to lenth:  (http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/006a-Grouters-12-DSC_0578Sm.jpg)

Here it is cut to length:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/006a-Grouters-13-DSC_0581Sm.jpg)

Then I use an intermediate punch to tighten things up some, and the final snap. For these, I'm not actually forming a rivet head, so I'm using a very FLAT punch for the final step to get the rivet down in the coutnersink.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/006a-Grouters-14-DSC_0571Sm.jpg)

I was humming along, not setting any speed record, but making pretty good progress - I was on my 12th or 13th grouter thinking I'd do just one more before I went in for dinner. And wouldn't you know it, the little drill bit I'm using for the rivets snapped :(. And I couldn't get the tip of the bit out of the wheel.  I tried all sorts of tricks.  It hadn't drilled all the way through, so I couldn't punch it out.  It broke off flush, so I couldn't pull it out. Try as I might, I couldn't get that sucker out of there.

So I resorted to destructive means.  I finally used an end mill to cut around the broken bit enough that I could finally break it out.  It's far uglier than it looks in this picture.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/006a-Grouters-16-DSC_0587Sm.jpg)

At least I was careful not to mill all the way through, and to keep my 'mess' small enough that it could be hidden under the grouter (I thought that was pretty smart :)).  So I went ahead and tried to rivet the grouter in place.

Alas, with that big gaping hole behind the rivet, things squished all over the place as I started to hammer the rivet in place.  So I stopped.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/006a-Grouters-17-DSC_0592Sm.jpg)

See how its all askew?  I think my next attack will be to mill out a nice round hole and solder a piece of steel in place.  Then I should be able to drill and rivet.  Hopefully it won't look too bad.

So here's where I'm at.  The good part:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/006a-Grouters-18-DSC_0593Sm.jpg)

And the ugly part:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/006a-Grouters-19-DSC_0595Sm.jpg)

I'll be sure to let you all know how it comes out.  I'm sure you'll be 'riveted' to my build log just waiting to find out how it all works out!

Thanks for following along,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: fumopuc on November 23, 2015, 04:51:23 AM
Hi Kim, the wheels are looking nice. Tommorrow with a fresh brain, you will find your best solution to fix the mishap with the ugly hole.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Roger B on November 23, 2015, 03:54:17 PM
Looking good  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: until the broken drill  :(

Can you drill and tap for a plug, silver solder in place and then smooth off?
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Johnmcc69 on November 23, 2015, 03:58:13 PM
This is coming together nicely Kim. I'm sure you'll get the kinks worked out.

 John
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on November 23, 2015, 04:29:16 PM
I have faith in you Kim!  You will figure out how to plug the hole so that no one will ever know. Bummer about the drill though. The wheels are looking great though even so.

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on November 23, 2015, 05:06:34 PM
Thanks for the vote of confidence Achim, Roger, John, and Bill!

Roger, that's pretty much my plan, thought I don't think I'll bother threading the hole.  I think I'll just make it a lose fit and solder it in place & clean it up.  I'm hoping I can get by without drilling all the way through the rim, so the plug will only be 3/32" thick anyway.  And the plug doesn't have to be super structurally sound - just hold the rivet for the grouter in place.

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on November 23, 2015, 08:38:05 PM
I hate it when that sh$t happens.  I've had decent luck busting out small drills with a good prick punch and a BFH, but,  that's Monday morning quarterbacking  8). Don't forget about the one and only,  JB Weld,  I think it'll blend in fine,  fill in the oh no,  and no chance of the heat affecting anything else.  I am watching,  :popcorn:, and  :DrinkPint: :DrinkPint:.

Cletus
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on November 23, 2015, 08:50:21 PM
Hi Eric,
Yeah, JB Weld is maybe something I should consider here.
More to ponder....
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Dave Otto on November 23, 2015, 09:12:05 PM
Hi Kim

The wheels are looking great!

I was also thinking along the same lines a Eric; filler up with JB Weld or similar product; file & sand to contour, re-drill and cover up the patch with the grouter. Will the wheels be painted? the patch will never show. I like Devcon Plastic Steel Putty (A) but it is pretty expensive, and doesn't have a very long shelf life.

Dave
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Don1966 on November 24, 2015, 12:12:33 AM
Bummer Kim and we all know it happens. You could of drill from the back side and then punched it out, I have done that before. Then again it depends how hard it would of been to drill the inside. If your going to paint it, it should be no problem just fill it in like Eric said and no one will know.
The wheels look great bud and keep up the great work........... :ThumbsUp:

Don
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on November 24, 2015, 12:55:11 AM
JB Weld is great stuff but not sure its right for this particular problem, a metal filler silver soldered in would be a much more permanent solution. I am afraid the impact of the riveting would break the bond of the JB Weld where it joins the metal. Great stuff but not a miracle in a tube. Just my 2 cents.

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on November 24, 2015, 01:59:23 AM
Yeah, Bill, I'm a little worried about that too.  I was considering gluing in a metal plug, then drilling and riveting. That might work. But I think filling it with JBWeld might not cut it.

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Dave Otto on November 24, 2015, 07:05:10 PM
Hi Kim

I don't necessarily believe in miracle in a tube either; and I'm not a person who normally takes short cuts.


My thoughts on this were/are that it will be very difficult to bring the area up to soldering temperature with out melting the solder in the joints of the near by spokes. That coupled with the fact that the rim is going to expand and the spokes probably not as much; this will cause the already trimmed and filed spokes to be below the surface of the wheel OD. Maybe not, but I would be concerned about it. It appeared to be me that the patch would be mostly covered by the grouter and with care squeezing a soft copper rivet would probably not  damage it. Also a good reason to use a better quality product like the Devcon that I mentioned above.

JB Weld is brittle after it is cured and I guess that should be taken into consideration. One other thing about a JB Weld type of repair is that is is less permanent and if it doesn't work it can always be removed and then go on to plan B; not quite as easy with soldering. I'm sure what ever you decide to do will work out just fine in the end.


Dave
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Jasonb on November 24, 2015, 08:03:16 PM
Definately don't silver solder in a patch as the soft soldered parts will fall apart and silver solder does not take well anywhere near the lead in soft solder

I would drill it out right through and tap say 1/4" x 40. Thread a plug with a tight fitting thread and loctite into place combined with peining over. Once loctite has set file flush inside and out and then redrill for your rivit.

Using softer copper rivits as I mentioned before will need far less force to form teh CSK end so you won't get that spreading of the end of the grouter that can be seen on most of them. You also don't need such a deep CSK infact a centre drill is ideal for strakes (grouters)
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on November 26, 2015, 02:12:20 AM
I was able to steal away a few hours in the shop today before the big TurkeyDay tomorrow, so I focused on fixing my wheel faux pas.

Based on all of your excellent feedback I received, I decided against my initial plan to solder in a plug.  I believe you are all correct.  That would have cause more issues.  I chose instead to keep things cold.

I started by carefully reaming out the hole to 1/4".  I did this in several steps using progressively larger center cutting end mills.  I had a 7/32", a 15/16" and a 1/4".  This worked pretty well.  The 7/32 was a little harsh, but taking off 1/128" per pass for the last two passes worked well and made the hole nice and circular.  The rim is 1/8" thick (0.125"), so I made the hole only 0.080" deep.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/006b-Grouters-1-DSC_0600Sm.jpg)

Then I made a 0.093" thick 1/4" round plug from a scrap of 1018 rod.  Here's the plug, sitting by its eventual new home.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/006b-Grouters-2-DSC_0601Sm.jpg)

It was a mild friction fit.  I put some red loktite in the hole and used a set of vice grips to help get it in evenly and seat it really well.  Not sure how much good the loktite will do, but it can't hurt, right?  The plug will be riveted in place anyway.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/006b-Grouters-3-DSC_0602Sm.jpg)

And here's the plug, in it's new home.  There was already a rivet sized relief hole in the bottom of the hole, so I wasn't worried about building up pressure or anything. And all the extra loktite was able to come out there.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/006b-Grouters-4-DSC_0604Sm.jpg)

After a session of files sand paper and a little buffing, I think it came out OK.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/006b-Grouters-5-DSC_0610Sm.jpg)

I then drilled the plug for the rivet, and hammered it home.  And here we are with the grouter mounted firmly in place. You can't even see the plug. Its completely covered by the grouter anyway.  The only issues you can see are my riveting inexperience.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/006b-Grouters-6-DSC_0611Sm.jpg)

I filled up the rest of my play time adding a few more grouters.  Here a shot as I left the shop today.  3/4 of the way done. Only six grouters to go on this one.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/006b-Grouters-7-DSC_0614Sm.jpg)

Thanks for all of your invaluable advice on getting past THIS problem.
On to the next one! :)
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: joe d on November 26, 2015, 02:15:49 AM
Nice save, Kim!

Still following, and still enjoying :ThumbsUp:

Cheers, Joe
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on November 26, 2015, 02:20:49 AM
Nice job Kim. As you said no one will ever know but you now. Great save!!

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Don1966 on November 26, 2015, 02:31:13 AM
Beautifully done Kim............. :ThumbsUp:

Don
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Dave Otto on November 26, 2015, 02:35:36 AM
Nicely done Kim!

Glad you got it sorted out.

Dave
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Bearcar1 on November 26, 2015, 03:01:07 AM
Yeah man, keep doing what yer doing. It looks really good…… TALLYHO!!  :DrinkPint:


BC1
Jim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: fumopuc on November 26, 2015, 04:02:15 AM
Hi Kim, as mentioned before, I was confident that you will find "your" best solution. Nice salvage.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: vcutajar on November 26, 2015, 05:22:36 AM
Great save.

Vince
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on November 26, 2015, 06:22:36 AM
Thanks for the encouraging words everyone!  But we all know that I'd have ended up with a warped, melted mess if not for all your excellent advice.

It takes a village to build a steam tractor! :)

Thanks!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Roger B on November 26, 2015, 12:47:44 PM
 :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp:  :)
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on December 07, 2015, 04:32:24 AM
Over Thanksgiving weekend I was able to finish up the wheels. I've summarized what was really an inordinate amount of time in three photos.  It was pleasant work, but it just took me a long time to complete all 96 rivets.  I broke one more drill bit in the process too, and ended up using the same process to mill out and plug the hole.

After getting all the grouters attached, I cleaned up the topside of rivets by filing them flat with the top of the grouter with a file
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/007a-FrontWheels-01-DSC_0620Sm.jpg)

And here are the two completed rear wheels.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/007a-FrontWheels-02-DSC_0630Sm.jpg)

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/007a-FrontWheels-03-DSC_0643Sm.jpg)


This weekend I started on the front wheels.  They should go much faster than the rear wheels, but still, there are a lot of steps for these puppies.

If you recall, several pages back (3-4 months ago) I made the rims for the front wheels.  Now all I have to do is drill the holes for the spokes.  To do this, I made a plywood mandrel for the front wheels and mounted them on the RT.  Here I've just spotted the holes for the 8 spokes on one side of the rim and am getting ready to drill them. The brass nail is there to ensure the rim doesn't rotate during this operation (I drilled one of the holes for the tire rivets).
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/007a-FrontWheels-04-DSC_0645Sm.jpg)

After the spoke holes were drilled, I wanted to drill the holes for the tire rivets before I took the rim off the drilling jig.  So, I went to cut a 1/4" strip of steel for the tire.

This proved to be a lot harder than I thought it should have been.  I tried using sheet metal shears (like these HF Throatless Shears (http://www.harborfreight.com/throatless-shear-38413.html)) but the metal curled up like a pigs tail.  When I tried to straighten it out it just went all weird.  It wasn't straight and it wasn't uniform width.  I tried all sorts of things, but was never able to make it work.  To make it worse, the nice straight edge of the piece of stock was all messed up too, and no longer straight.

What I finally did was to use two pieces of steel for straight edges, and clamped the sheet metal between them with just a little bit exposed.  Then I was able to carefully file up to a line getting the piece fairly straight and uniform.  Here it is, just after I finished filing it true(ish).
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/007a-FrontWheels-05-DSC_0660Sm.jpg)

Using that straight(ish) edge, I used a guide in the band saw to get a fairly uniform 1/4" strip, that wasn't all screwed up.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/007a-FrontWheels-06-DSC_0668Sm.jpg)

Sheet metal is harder to work with that I remember!  When I worked with it at school I had a guillotine shear and a pan break. Those probably make a big difference.  But they are expensive pieces of equipment that I don't have!

Anyway, I'll figure it out, and that's a big part of my learning with this project, isn't it! :)

After cutting two strips, needed to drill the locations for the rivets.  RK calls for 5 rivets, one on each end, and three equally spaced at 90 degrees around the rim.  So, using Pi and the diameter of 3.25", I calculated the locations for the rivets, and marked them:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/007a-FrontWheels-11-DSC_0677Sm.jpg)

I drilled the five rivet holes and made ittiy bitty countersinks, just like I did for the grouters.

Then I took it to the wheel and used that brass escutcheon pin to hold the tire in place while drilled the next hole.  And then added a brass pin to that hole:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/007a-FrontWheels-07-DSC_0680Sm.jpg)

This is where I'm drilling the last rivet hole.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/007a-FrontWheels-08-DSC_0683Sm.jpg)

And there we are, the rim removed from the plywood and the tire re-attached.  Not too bad!
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/007a-FrontWheels-09-DSC_0689Sm.jpg)

Here's my current dilemma though;  I put a couple of 'trial spokes' in place to check this, and it looks like it's going to be REALLY hard to get my rivet anvil (or whatever you call it) in between the spokes & the hub to set the rivets.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/007a-FrontWheels-10-DSC_0685Sm.jpg)

I had been worried about this.  That's one of the reasons I did the tire now.  One of my thoughts was to go ahead and rivet the tire in place now, before I solder the spokes & hub.  This will make the riveting much easier, but will make cleaning up the spoke stubs harder. And I'm a little worried that I might get solder on the tire. Let's call this Option 1.

The other option (Option 2) would be to solder the spokes in place and then fight the issue of figuring out how to rivet in such a confined space. 

So what does the advisory board suggest?
Option 1, easy riveting, hard cleanup?
Option 2, easy cleanup, hard riveting? (maybe really hard)

I'm open to suggestions!

Thanks for looking in,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: 10KPete on December 07, 2015, 05:37:41 AM
Cut down the riveting anvil so you can rivet after soldering. That's my vote anyway!

Keep up the good work!

Pete
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on December 07, 2015, 12:44:11 PM
It's easy to armchair quarterback Kim, but I am with Pete here, assuming you can modify the anvil enough to get it between the spokes and keep it solid enough at the same time. At lease you won't have as many rivets to contend with on the front wheels!

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Roger B on December 07, 2015, 01:03:48 PM
I would tend towards soldering first and then riveting if you can make a suitable anvil. The one you used for the rear wheels appeared to be taller (longer?) than it possibly needed to be. As Bill says, it's easy to advise when you don't have to do the job.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on December 07, 2015, 04:10:46 PM
Thanks for the help Pete, Bill and Roger,
The advise seems pretty unanimous - solder first and figure out the riveting problem.

Now I need to make the hubs so I can do the soldering :)

Thanks for the time to give me advise.  I really appreciate it!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Don1966 on December 07, 2015, 04:26:07 PM
Kim like Pete and Bill I vote to cut down the anvil. The problem I see soldering after riveting is the heat will expand the grouters and mess them up. I can see them rising above the wheel. I don't see a problem with a smaller anvil as long as you keep a firm grip on it in the vise.

Regards Don
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on December 19, 2015, 10:24:44 PM
Thanks Don!  I will be following your advice! :)

Before I can do the soldering, I have to make the hubs.  So out comes the 1/2" brass rod.  Here I just drilled and reamed a 1/4" hole for the axle.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/007b-FrontWheels-1-DSC_0694Sm.jpg)


I was going to cut the hub to shape while still on the original stock, but I couldn't get the tool in close enough with the live center to support the far end.  So I cut it off and put it on a 1/4" Mandrel for shaping.  I ended up sacrificing the nuts, but that's no biggie. They're pretty disposable.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/007b-FrontWheels-2-DSC_0699Sm.jpg)

Here's one hub off the lathe.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/007b-FrontWheels-3-DSC_0703Sm.jpg)

Now to the mill and the RT to drill the spoke holes. The front wheels only have 16 spokes, 8 on each side.  So, they are a simple 45 degrees between spokes, with the two sides offset by 22.5 degrees.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/007b-FrontWheels-4-DSC_0705Sm.jpg)

Then I cut spokes, (3/32" brass rod) clean up all the parts, and flux them up for soldering on the wheel fixture.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/007b-FrontWheels-5-DSC_0710Sm.jpg)

And here it is, in all its ugly glory, after soldering and a pickle bath (and some scrubbing).  It was much uglier before the pickling!  It was from this picture that I noticed that a few of the joints didn't seem to have soldered all the way through, so I did those again (note the spokes at the top of the picture).
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/007b-FrontWheels-6-DSC_0712Sm.jpg)

Next was to file down the nub ends of the spokes on the outside of the wheel rim.  The lathe is only being used for support here, I didn't turn it on till I got to using some sand paper.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/007b-FrontWheels-7-DSC_0716Sm.jpg)

And here are the front wheels with all spokes soldered, and some level of clean up completed.  Now, to rivet the tires!
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/007b-FrontWheels-8-DSC_0723Sm.jpg)

To do rivet the tires I have to make my anvil shorter.  To do this, I needed to anneal the anvil (which I had previously hardened) so that I can cut it down a bit.  Unfortunately, I think I got things too hot and the bottom of the anvil became misshapen.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/007b-FrontWheels-9-DSC_0724Sm.jpg)

I left the anvil cooling and will see what it looks like tomorrow after I chip the crust off of it.  I'm hoping that I can still use it - the business end seemed fine. But if not, I'll just have to make another one. And this one I can make the right size from the start!

Thanks for watching,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: derekwarner_decoy on December 19, 2015, 10:32:45 PM
Those wheels are a very crisp build Kim..... :ThumbsUp:...did you need to re-ream the bores to cleanup, or achieve true running?......... Derek
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Don1966 on December 19, 2015, 10:37:59 PM
Looking good Kim.............. :ThumbsUp:

Don
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on December 20, 2015, 12:59:02 AM
Those turned out very very nice Kim. You are fast becoming the guru of traction engine wheels :)

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Dave Otto on December 20, 2015, 01:04:48 AM
Nice work on the front wheels Kim, they look great!

Dave
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on December 20, 2015, 05:54:27 AM
Thanks for the comments Derek, Don, Bill, and Dave,
I really appreciate the encouragement!

Derek, no, I didn't re-ream them. They came out 'close enough' to true.  One runs very true, the other there's a itty-bitty wobble, but not very much. And nothing that can be noticed when still or running at normal speeds.  If I thought the wheel's would be turning at 50-60 RPM I might worry, but they won't.

I was going to wait to drill them till after I got the hubs soldered in, but then I realized I'd have no easy way to hold them in place while soldering.  I could have drilled undersized, but then I'd have to bore the hole, and boring a 7/8" deep, 1/4" hole seemed hard. I don't have a tool that could do that. So I just decided to go for it.  Seems to have worked out.  Within my tolerances anyway. :)  Maybe I'll tighten up my standards as I progress, but for now I'm pretty stoked about what I've done so far :)

Thanks,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: fumopuc on December 20, 2015, 06:10:48 AM
Hi Kim, nice front wheels. Is there any later painting scheduled ? I am asking about the tyre riveting.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on December 20, 2015, 03:33:25 PM
Thanks Achim!

Not sure about painting yet.  I like the look of being able to see all the metal, but in this case, I'm not sure the bare metal will make it a real show piece.  So I may paint.  But that's a whole other headache.  Guess I'll get to that in a while... a LONG while, at my rate! :)

Why does the riveting bring up painting? Are you thinking I should paint it before I put on the tire?

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: fumopuc on December 20, 2015, 06:03:51 PM
......

Why does the riveting bring up painting? Are you thinking I should paint it before I put on the tire?

Kim

Exactly that have have been my thoughts.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on December 20, 2015, 10:03:04 PM
Thanks for pointing this out Achim. I hadn't actually given that any though before.

But now, having thought about it for a bit (a VERY little bit), it seems that many pictures I've seen of engines like this only show painting the hubs, spokes, and the inside of the wheels.  The outside of the wheel, and the tire isn't painted. That's what I would picture doing.

I'm afraid if I painted them now, I'd chip the paint while riveting.  And I think painting over the rivets on the inside doesn't seem too bad.

But I'm open for suggestions!

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: 10KPete on December 20, 2015, 11:37:16 PM
Beautiful job, Kim. Re: painting the wheels, I doubt the originals had paint on the outside of the wheels as the first time they
were driven that paint would be history!

Pete
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on December 24, 2015, 08:59:56 PM
Thanks Pete.  I think that I will be paining, and that's probably what I'll do.  Still thinking about the color!

I'll start my update with this beauty shot of the completed front wheels, after riveting the tires in place.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/008a-FlyWheel-01-DSC_0728Sm.jpg)

Then it's on to the fly wheel.  This is the last wheel like item for this build, and I guess Rudy just has you get them all out of the way at the front.  Again, for this one he recommends using a cast bronze pipe coupler, but I had no luck finding anything of the sort.  So, I went with a piece of DOM tubing of the specified size for the outer rim of the fly wheel.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/008a-FlyWheel-02-DSC_0734Sm.jpg)

Using the same technique as with the wheels, I made six 3/16" holes for the spokes.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/008a-FlyWheel-03-DSC_0741Sm.jpg)

The spokes for the fly wheel are a little different.  Rudy has you cut 1/8" pegs on the end of each spoke to fit in the hub.  Here I'm making the 1/8" peg on the end of 3/16" brass rod.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/008a-FlyWheel-04-DSC_0742Sm.jpg)

Then cutting the spoke to length:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/008a-FlyWheel-05-DSC_0746Sm.jpg)

Here's the rim and 6 the six spokes.  Just missing the hub.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/008a-FlyWheel-06-DSC_0748Sm.jpg)

So, lets make a hub from 1/2" brass rod.  This time I made the center hole undersized so I could widen it later after things are all soldered up.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/008a-FlyWheel-07-DSC_0751Sm.jpg)

On the mill, I made 6 flats for the spokes, then drilled 6 1/8" holes for the pegs.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/008a-FlyWheel-08-DSC_0753Sm.jpg)

And here it is, being assembled in the wheel jig in preparation for soldering.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/008a-FlyWheel-09-DSC_0754Sm.jpg)

All ready to soloder:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/008a-FlyWheel-10-DSC_0757Sm.jpg)

After my solder torture session.  Poor fly wheel...
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/008a-FlyWheel-11-DSC_0759Sm.jpg)

But it cleaned up pretty nicely.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/008a-FlyWheel-12-DSC_0764Sm.jpg)

Then I filed the ends of the spokes even with the rim.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/008a-FlyWheel-13-DSC_0768Sm.jpg)

Since it seems super important for the flywheel to run wobble free, I did leave the center hole undersized early on so I could bore it out true to the rim.  Which I did right here, using a 1/4" end mill (2-flute, center cutting):
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/008a-FlyWheel-14-DSC_0770Sm.jpg)

Unfortunately, my wheel jig must not be as accurate as I'd hoped.  The center of the wheel isn't in the center of the hub.  :(  It's only off by 1/32", but that's quite noticeable!  The wheel would run true, but the hub will wobble around by 1/16".  And I think that is even out of my specs!
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/008a-FlyWheel-15-DSC_0778Sm.jpg)

I gave some thought to trimming the hub down a bit so that it wouldn't look so bad, but that would leave a bizarre shape in the center around the spokes.  Not sure I like that with something as prominent as the fly wheel.  So I'll be re-doing it.  And I'll make a new wheel jig this time around - the one I made before clearly isn't centering things to the tolerance I need.

Well, I'm going to be focusing inside for the next few days, so there won't be much progress for a bit. You all have a very Merry Christmas!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on December 24, 2015, 10:45:38 PM
Kim, you are certainly knee deep in the spokes.  Think about reboring and using a bush.  It could be hidden or even embellished and save a lot of work on a otherwise nice part.

Cletus
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Don1966 on December 24, 2015, 10:53:31 PM
Bummer Kim but it happens buddy and a new jig should help. I would differently remake it myself.

Don
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on December 25, 2015, 12:00:09 AM
Thanks Don and Cletus,

Unfortunately, plugging and re-boring won't help. The hole is actually in the center of the wheel, as defined by the rim. The problem is that the hub isn't in the true center of the wheel.  Its offset to one side.  So if I put the hole in the center of the hub, the fly wheel will be way out of balance.  It will wobble back and forth 1/16" - which is too much.  It'll look silly, not to mention cause a lot of vibration when its running!

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on December 25, 2015, 03:45:14 AM
That's a bummer for sure Kim. Aside from the off center hole though it looks great. The second time will be the charm no doubt!! 

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: mal webber on December 27, 2015, 01:33:36 PM
Hi Kim

Very interesting traction engine your building ,i really like the way the wheels have turn out looking forward to seeing more.

Mal.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on December 27, 2015, 04:10:13 PM
Thanks Bill and Mal, Appreciate the encouragement!
Pretty soon I'll get some shop time and can tackle that flywheel again!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: zeeprogrammer on December 27, 2015, 05:48:53 PM
What a terrific thread outlining the trials and tribulations on the art of setting rivets.

Exactly my thoughts while I was reading. Very good tips and techniques.

Following along Kim.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on December 29, 2015, 10:13:17 PM
Thanks Zee! :)

Fly Wheel - Take 2

The only thing I did different this time around was to use a new wheel Jig.  I made this one out of a piece of 1/4" CRS (1018).  I chucked it up in the 4 jaw and cut a round ledge about 0.050" deep that JUST fit the inside diameter of the flywheel rim.  Then  I used a 1/2" end mill to cut a 1/2" hole for the hub to the same depth.  Here it is just after cutting the 1/2" hub hole.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/008b-FlyWheel-1-DSC_0785Sm.jpg)

Then I made a new rim, a new hub, and 6 new spokes and soldered them in place using the new improved jig.  It worked quite well!  Here's the flywheel all prepped for soldering.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/008b-FlyWheel-2-DSC_0789Sm.jpg)

The flywheel came out with no wobble or run out.  I could have just started with a 1/4" hole in the hub, but I started with the 3/16" and bored & reamed it to 1/4" as before just for added security.

Here's a couple of shots of the final fly wheel, complete with set screw:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/008b-FlyWheel-3-DSC_0791Sm.jpg)

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/008b-FlyWheel-4-DSC_0794Sm.jpg)

I'm much more pleased with this fly wheel. I'm glad I took the time to redo it.
Kim 
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Bertie_Bassett on December 29, 2015, 10:38:25 PM
your right to be pleased with that  :ThumbsUp: that looks a lot better
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: joe d on December 29, 2015, 10:46:23 PM
Second time was the charm for sure.  That looks good!

Joe
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: vcutajar on December 29, 2015, 10:49:25 PM
 :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

Vince
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Don1966 on December 29, 2015, 10:50:45 PM
Awesome Kim! They say the second time is a charm. Very nice work my friend........... :ThumbsUp:

Don
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on December 29, 2015, 10:54:22 PM
Thanks Bertie, Joe, Vince & Don,
I'm excited to get on to something besides wheels!  These have been fun, but its been a couple of months of just wheels.  Not sure what I'll tackle next, but I'm excited about it, whatever it is! :)
Kim

Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Dave Otto on December 29, 2015, 10:59:11 PM
Nicely done Kim!

Dave
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: fumopuc on December 30, 2015, 07:24:22 AM
Hi Kim, that's looking good. Soldering seems to be no obstacle anymore. Seems to be done with same routine like drilling a hole.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on December 30, 2015, 01:33:03 PM
That one looks great Kim. I can tell you are more pleased with it also, nicely done!

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on December 30, 2015, 04:02:12 PM
Thanks Dave, Achim, and Bill,

... Soldering seems to be no obstacle anymore. Seems to be done with same routine like drilling a hole.

Not sure I'd go quite THAT far Achim :) But I certainly am building up more comfort with the process.  I'm still not very good ad it - I use too much solder, burn my flux off and have to re-apply, and then have a lot of clean-up work afterwards. But I'm improving.  And what more can you ask? :)

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on December 30, 2015, 04:11:41 PM
Kim, :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:, looks like you have the wheel thing down pat   If you haven't trashed the first one, drill the center hole out to fit your chuck key and put it up on your head stock.

Cletus
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: zeeprogrammer on December 30, 2015, 04:51:29 PM
its been a couple of months of just wheels.

"just wheels" he says.  :Lol:

Nicely done and looking good.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Bearcar1 on December 31, 2015, 05:25:33 PM
Well done Amigo…. I am watching and following along….. shoot, you might just 'guilt' me into resuming what I have started……..  :paranoia: Keep up the good work!!


BC1
Jim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on January 04, 2016, 01:47:02 AM
Thanks for the support Cletus, Zee, and Jim.

With my new DRO installed and in place, I'm back on the Traction Engine.  Next up is the Boiler Outer Casing.  This is the long round part that holds the boiler and (according to Rudy) provides the support structure for the rest of the engine.  Everything else is bolted onto the Boiler Outer Casing.

This is a 10 11/16" length of 2 3/8" OD (2 1/16" ID) steel DOM tube.  I cut it to approx length, then set it up in the lathe to clean up the ends and make it the correct length.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/009a-BoilerOuterCasing-01-DSC_0835Sm.jpg)

Next Rudy instructs you to put 4 longitudinal layout lines around the casing, one every 90 degrees.  I did this with it in the lathe using a makeshift tail stock support and the cut-off tool to scribe the line. If you look carefully you can see a short piece of steel I've wedged under one of the jaws of the 4-jaw chuck.  I used this to index 90 degrees.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/009a-BoilerOuterCasing-02-DSC_0841Sm.jpg)

There's one of my lines:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/009a-BoilerOuterCasing-03-DSC_0843Sm.jpg)

Next I moved to the mill to drill the required holes in the casing - Here you see two facing forward (actually the bottom of the casing) for boiler support and steering fork, and one facing up (actually the left side of the casing) for the Blast Pipe.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/009a-BoilerOuterCasing-04-DSC_0846Sm.jpg)

To drill the top holes (Smoke stack & Steam Dome) I had to move to the drill press. The mill didn't have nearly enough head room (Z-height). I even had to move the drill-press table out of the way to make that work!  That 5/8" drill bit is fairly long.  In this picture I've just finished drilling the hole for the Smoke Stack.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/009a-BoilerOuterCasing-05-DSC_0856Sm.jpg)

My Drill press just couldn't cut the mustard for the steam dome hole. This was an elongated 5/8" x 1" hole.  I tried drilling 2 5/8" holes close together, but that didn't work. The drill press just wasn't rigid enough to do this job.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/009a-BoilerOuterCasing-06-DSC_0852Sm.jpg)

So I moved back to the mill and finished it up with a 3/8" end mill.  I just free-handed it around the outline I'd drawn previously.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/009a-BoilerOuterCasing-07-DSC_0858Sm.jpg)

That worked out pretty well!  Besides, you won't see this anyway, it'll be under the Steam Dome.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/009a-BoilerOuterCasing-08-DSC_0864Sm.jpg)

Then I drilled out a bunch of holes for decorative rivets along one side of the casing.  This was 26+ little holes in fairly thick steel.  I was nervous.  It mostly went OK, but I broke one bit off in a hole. (Its 6 holes to the left of the one I'm drilling - has a few little circles scratched around it to help me find it later).
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/009a-BoilerOuterCasing-09-DSC_0868Sm.jpg)

After finishing up that row of rivet holes, I went back to try and recover the one with the broken bit in it.  I plan to do as before - mill out around the broken bit, get it out, then press-fit a steel plug in place and drill a new hole.  Unfortunately, I broke my last 1/16" end mill. So I decided it was time to call it a day.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/009a-BoilerOuterCasing-10-DSC_0876Sm.jpg)

It seems that these little #55 bits will drill 15-20 holes before they give up.  I try sharpening them, but that's kind-a hit or miss (more miss than hit to be honest).  And when I miss, I run the risk of breaking the bit - it tends to just NOT cut at all!  They are so small it's hard for me to get them lined up properly when sharpening.

Anyway, I'm ordering more of these bits (and more 1/16" end mills!).  I thinking of instituting a policy where a new bit will only be used for 15-20 holes then it gets tossed.  I'm getting them for ~ 56 cents a piece on Amazlin ($5.64 for 10), and if I break a 1/16" mill bit when getting one out, I've lost more money than burning through two packs of these bits.  Plus, once I'm attaching sheetmetal to this beast, I won't have the easy access to mill out the bit. Not sure what I'll do then.  So I need to come up with a method that gives me better than a 1 in 20 chance of breaking a bit!

Thanks,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on January 09, 2016, 11:51:06 PM
Well, it was one of those mornings in the shop.  I'll catch you up to my current frustration.

I'd left things in a mess, with the tip of the broken #55 drill bit still stuck.  I spent some time to mill around it and finally got it out.  Then I cleaned up the hole with a 3/16" mill, drilled it to the right size and tapped 1/4-20.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/009b-BoilerOuterCasing-1-DSC_0880Sm.jpg)

Then I made a short plug out of 1/4" 1018 steel rod and screwed it in place. Then prepped it for some silver soldering:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/009b-BoilerOuterCasing-2-DSC_0883Sm.jpg)

After cleaning it up with a file, I drilled the hole in the plug.  Here's basically what it looks like.  Not to bad, considering my nascent soldering skills. I forgot to take pictures of this, so this picture was taken after the fact (like just a few minutes ago :)).
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/009b-BoilerOuterCasing-3-DSC_0888Sm.jpg)

At this point I was all pumped and ready to go forward.  The next step was to drill a line of rivet holes around the circumference of the tube, as shown in the plans.  But alas, I broke a bit on the first hole.  Miraculously, I was able to pull the broken stub out.  I think it was because it was only in a little way.  Ever optimistic, I put in a new bit and continued to try and drill.  I made it through one hole, but broke that bit on the 2nd hole.  This time, no miracle.  I'm going to have to drill it out and do another plug. :(

Here's the offending hole (circled in red).  It looks like I have 3 holes around the circumference, but the first one is part of the longitudinal line I drilled previously. 
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/009b-BoilerOuterCasing-4-DSC_0887Sm_Annotated.jpg)


This got me thinking.  Yes, it was hard before, but it is feeling impossible to drill these little holes right now.  So I started to wonder if in the process of silver soldering my plug in, I hardened the steel tube I'm drilling.  I did quench it in water after soldering - probably not my brightest idea.  And since it's silver solder, I had to get up around 1250 F to make the hard solder work.  And with my feeble soldering skills, it took me an inordinately long time to solder this.  And I know it got red hot in a few places as I was working (stupidly slow).

With this (hopeful?) thought in mind, I decided to try annealing the area where I'm going to be drilling the holes.  So I used my torch to get it red hot in that area and just worked my way around the tube.  Here it is after the heating; I've left it in the shop to cool off, and to think about what bad boy it has been.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/009b-BoilerOuterCasing-5-DSC_0886Sm.jpg)

Next time in the shop, I'll try drilling a few more holes and see if my annealing idea had any merit. It has to be easier than this to drill those holes!  Before I drilled 25-30 holes before I broke a bit.  This time, it's been 2 bits for 1.5 holes!

Thanks for following my tale of sorry and woe,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on January 10, 2016, 12:30:42 AM
That can be frustrating I know, but better the small drills than the 1/16" end mills...those little buggers are expensive! I think you may be on the right track with the annealing though given the number of holes you drilled before the first bit broke. As Scarlet O'Hara famously said..."After all, tomorrow in another day."

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: AOG on January 10, 2016, 12:35:03 AM
As someone who has made Travers rich on the need to replace broken 1/16 bits I can sympathize. Along the he way I have noticed that the smaller spotting bits get dull quickly. When that happens the starting hole is off, my drill wanders and I end up with a broken drill. It may be worth taking a look at.

Tony
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on January 10, 2016, 12:37:26 AM
Thanks Bill and Tony, appreciate the commiseration :)

Bill, I hope that's the deal. I'll give it a shot again tomorrow and see what happens.

Tony, thanks for the tip.  I'll have to look at that too!

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Don1966 on January 10, 2016, 12:54:33 AM
Like Bill I think the annealing will help with your drilling. You might also consider using cobolt bits, they stay sharp longer and a little more expensive. Your doing fine Kim just keep at it.

Don
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on January 10, 2016, 01:03:22 AM
Thanks Don,
I might have to look for some cobalt bits.  I did get Titanium coated bits for this and that seemed to work OK (at least before!).  But I might try getting some Cobalt and see if that helps too.
Thanks for the help!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 10, 2016, 01:07:30 AM
I have no doubt success is around the corner.

Been following.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Dave Otto on January 10, 2016, 01:12:28 AM
Hey Kim

Sorry to hear about your troubles; at least you are able (so far) to repair and move forward.

I was going to ask about your procedure and type of bits? DOM should be a pretty easy task to drill and I doubt there is enough carbon to surface harden by quenching; but annealing cant hurt.

I'm with Don the cobalt drill bits can stand a lot more abuse than HSS; are you using lube? If you are not already I would consider trying some 135 degree split point screw machine length drills from a well known manufacture. Something on the order of Chicago Latrobe or Precision Twist Drill.

My guess is that you are probably pushing the drill too hard, it binds in the hole and breaks. Do you have a depth stop on your mill that you can peck down against. lower the stop say .05" drill up to the stop; retract, clear the chips add oil, lower the stop another .05 and do it again. Please tell me that you are using a good quality cutting oil made for steel?

I'm sure that you can get over this little hump in the road and move on to more fun things.

Dave
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on January 10, 2016, 06:22:15 AM
Thanks for the detailed list of pointers Dave.  More very helpful input!

If you are not already I would consider trying some 135 degree split point screw machine length drills from a well known manufacture. Something on the order of Chicago Latrobe or Precision Twist Drill.
I'll look at that.  I've got inexpensive HSS Titanium coated bits that came in a 10 pack.  So likely not the highest quality, though it is exactly what I used to drill all the rivet holes in the wheels and in this part so far.  They do seem to dull after a few dozen holes though.

My guess is that you are probably pushing the drill too hard, it binds in the hole and breaks. Do you have a depth stop on your mill that you can peck down against. lower the stop say .05" drill up to the stop; retract, clear the chips add oil, lower the stop another .05 and do it again.
Well, this is pretty much what I'm doing.  The tube wall is only 5/32" (0.156") thick, and I'm doing it in 3-4 pecks about 50 thou each.

Please tell me that you are using a good quality cutting oil made for steel?
Another good question.  I'm using the lube I happen to have that has always seemed to work on steel - Tap Magic.  It lists lots of materials and then says "all cuts on all metals".  I've got A-9, but that's more for Aluminum. And Rapid Tap, and Grizzly's Viper Venom. But the Tap Magic is what I've been using on steel.

Thanks for the help Dave,
Kim

Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Jasonb on January 10, 2016, 07:54:48 AM
Kim, how are you starting the hole? spot drill, centre drill or just going straight at it with the drill?
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on January 10, 2016, 03:20:22 PM
Hi Jason,
I've done some of both.  Initially, I was religiously spotting every hole.  But sometimes that seemed to cause problems because the bit would grab the edge of the spot and go all wonky.  Or sometimes the spot would be off a little bit.  If I noticed (which means it was off by quite a bit) I would adjust the position so the bit was straight down.

After reading a different thread (fairly recent one) on drilling small holes, someone had suggested not spotting and just approaching the surface really slowly and letting the tip of the drill make the start.  So I tried that, and it seemed to work equally well.  So for these ones that have broken yesterday, no, I didn't spot them.

I don't think that's the problem.  but I could be wrong.  Something I don't understand is the problem for sure!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Dave Otto on January 10, 2016, 04:57:45 PM
Hi Kim

You should be able to drill 3X the drill diameter on the first peck but the way you are doing it should be fine. My guess is that the questionable quality of the drills is your main issue; the TIN coating probably  isn't buying you anything; I would just get the bright finish or steam oxide. I like I said before I would try the 135 degree split point drills in screw machine length. With the split point drill you wont need to spot the hole, although you will need to be careful starting on the round tubing.

I have sets of screw machine drills and find the they work for the vast majority of the work I do; it is very seldom that I reach for a jobber length drill.

Dave
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on January 11, 2016, 04:21:08 AM
Thanks everyone for the many helpful suggestions and tips.

I spent a long afternoon in the shop and made some good (if somewhat glacial) progress.  I started by finding my sharpest center.  Turns out my spotters jumped around a lot - they were all single flute and didn't have much of a point. So I found a nice sharp center and used that to spot all the holes around the circumfrence.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/009c-BoilerOuterCasing-1-DSC_0893Sm.jpg)

I setup a fence at the back of the tube to get all the holes at the correct longitudinal spot, so all I had to worry about was positioning them rotationally.  The location isn't that critical - these rivets are just for looks.  But I do want them to look nice, straight, and regularly spaced.  This picture shows the makeshift fence I used the centering and drilling operations.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/009c-BoilerOuterCasing-2-DSC_0900Sm.jpg)

Next I got a new drill and looked at it. It was a 135 degree bit, and it looked 'pretty' sharp.  So I used that.  I took the hole very slowly.  I was drilling scared.  It took me a while but I got one hole done, without breaking anything. Then another one. And another one.  By the 4th hole, I was starting to think I might be possible.  This is where I started to think I might finish this project someday. The hole circled in red is one with the bit broken inside it.  The 4 circled in green are the ones I just did!
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/009c-BoilerOuterCasing-3-DSC_0895Sm.jpg)

And about 2 1/2 hours later, I had all 25 of the remaining holes complete.  All with that one bit!  This is my victory shot after I broke through that last hole :)
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/009c-BoilerOuterCasing-4-DSC_0897Sm.jpg)

In the end, I'm not sure the annealing really did much. It was still hard stuff to drill.  So I think you were right on this Dave.

So what did I do differently? Mainly, I just took things really slowly and carefully.  And I listened...

I still did 50 thou pecks, clearing chips & lubing in between. The last 50-60 thou was always the scariest (third peck). This is where the bits broke each time before.  It seems like the steel is a little harder close to the ID, though I have no clue why.  Things sounded different when I got to this point, so I always went VERY slowly here.  And when they sounded 'different' I'd back out and clear chips & lube again.

I think the listen part was very important. I could hear a different sound when the going got hard - when it started to break chips that were too big, or too hard, or something.  I don't really know what I was hearing. But it sounded different. So I slowed down and I cleared chips more often. And it seemed to help.

And if I was getting that sound too much, I would take out the bit and try and hone it a little. This really helped too!  I didn't use any sharpening jig, the bit was just too small, I just did it by hand on a diamond stone.  I did this 3-4 times during the 25 holes.  One time my 'shapening' made it worse - oops! - but it didn't break.  It just 'felt' like it wasn't working as well as it should.  So I took it out and tried sharpening it again.  Then it worked great.

I could tell a big difference after sharpening.  The chips would come out nicer and it would cut faster.  But I always went slow and listened carefully to the drill.

One more victory shot, just because I can! :)
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/009c-BoilerOuterCasing-5-DSC_0901Sm.jpg)

Now I just have to go drill out and plug that hole with the broken bit in it, and I think I'll be able to move on!  (I'm sure you'll all be thrilled not to hear me whining about these holes for a while!  :hammerbash: )

I still really don't know why things went south when I started doing this set of rivet holes.  I probably just started to get too confident or something.  But wow! this really taught me to slow down and LISTEN to the drill. I think that is what made all the difference.

Thank you all for your help in getting me past yet another hurdle in my machining apprenticeship :)
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Steamer5 on January 11, 2016, 09:21:50 AM
Hi Kim,
 Keep at it...you'll beat the  :cussing: !!

Been enjoying posts, had a thought when I read your wheel sager, on the front wheels instead of  adding the grippers(?) to the OD, how about starting with a heavier wall tube & turning it down & adding the rivets for decoration. Didn't bother suggesting it earlier as you had done it, & looked like you were having fun!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: 10KPete on January 11, 2016, 09:23:14 AM
Well, I think it's safe to say that now you are tuned in to drilling holes. Same stuff applies to larger holes also!

 :cheers:

Pete
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 11, 2016, 11:34:08 AM
 :pinkelephant:

Awesome.

And a great post.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on January 11, 2016, 03:14:15 PM
Thanks Kerrin, Pete & Zee!

Kerrin, that's an interesting idea about carving the grouters out of the wheel rim itself. I'd have to think about how to do that.  Don't know if I could come up with an easier way to do that, but its in interesting thought!

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on January 11, 2016, 03:31:10 PM
Well done Kim, we knew you would prevail :)

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Don1966 on January 11, 2016, 07:32:51 PM
Well done Kim on the project and learning Process.......... :ThumbsUp:

Don
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Dave Otto on January 12, 2016, 12:54:33 AM
Glad to see things are working better now. nice progress on the boiler shell.

Dave
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on January 12, 2016, 05:28:25 AM
Thanks for the vote of confidence Bill, Don, and Dave!

.... nice progress on the boiler shell.

Oh, I like that term; "Boiler Shell"  its a lot less formal sounding (and less awkward) than "Boiler Outer Casing"  which is what Rudy calls it.  I'm going to call it a boiler shell now! :)

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on January 16, 2016, 11:25:18 PM
Today's mission: recover from my most recent broken drill fiasco (described in some detail back in  post #161 (http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,5264.msg109687.html#msg109687)).

This time, rather than painstakingly doinking around with a 1/16" end mill (that I'd likely break) to mill around the bit, I decided to go with the concept that that Tim used to remove his broken center (see that thread here (http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php?topic=3687.0)).  I made the basic tool from a piece of 1/4" W-1.  I drilled a center hole about 20 thou bigger than the actual size of the drill bit so I didn't have to be perfectly aligned and turned the outside down to 5/32".  All I needed was to leave a hole small enough I could make 1/4-20 threads in it.  But I wanted it big enough it wasn't likely to break!

So after a simple turning exercise, I took my donut drill blank to the mill to make some teeth.  I did this following other people's examples.  I decided to go with 4 teeth, though I think that only one did most of the work.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/009d-BoilerOuterCasing-1-DSC_0904Sm.jpg)

Here's a close-up shot.  I used the square collet block to cut 4 theeth.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/009d-BoilerOuterCasing-2-DSC_0911Sm.jpg)

After cleaning them up a bit, I used a file to make a little relief behind each tooth, then I heat treated it.  Here it is, post quench:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/009d-BoilerOuterCasing-3-DSC_0922Sm.jpg)

I knocked the scale off of it then tempered it (as best I could anyway), then did a little careful honing.  It almost looks dangerous! :)
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/009d-BoilerOuterCasing-4-DSC_0924Sm.jpg)

Low and behold, it actually cut!  :cartwheel:  Not super well, mind you, but good enough.  And since there was very little room for chips in the end of the tool I had to clear chips quite often, once the teeth got burried.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/009d-BoilerOuterCasing-5-DSC_0930Sm.jpg)

Here we are all done.  the plug is sitting right next to the hole.  The plug was stuck in the end of the donut drill and I had to knock it out.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/009d-BoilerOuterCasing-6-DSC_0933Sm.jpg)

Then I made up a short 1/4"-20 plug and preped for silver soldering.  The white stuff is flux. Though the tube looks quite filthy here, the area around the hole (under the flux) is actually bright shiny clean metal.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/009d-BoilerOuterCasing-7-DSC_0944Sm.jpg)

I screwed it in, dabbed a bit more flux on, and put a circle of silver solder around the plug.  This soldering job went MUCH better than my last.  I was able to heat it from the bottom so that the top didn't oxidize so much. I think this was a great help.  It was cool to watch the solder suddenly melt and suck into the seam.  :D
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/009d-BoilerOuterCasing-8-DSC_0947Sm.jpg)

Its sitting out in the shop cooling now.  Next I'll file down the plug and drill the hole right this time!

I tell you, making that little donut drill tool and seeing it work was more fun than it had any right to be!  That was pretty fun!  :naughty:

Thanks for your watching,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on January 16, 2016, 11:32:43 PM
That worked a treat Kim!! Aside from the time of making the tool, much less expensive that breaking 1/16" endmills too. Main thing is that it worked well. Nice recovery my friend!!!

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on January 16, 2016, 11:45:47 PM
Thanks Bill!  And as I said, it was more fun than I'd imagined to make that tool and have it work. That was a treat in itself!  :pinkelephant: (yes, I'm easily amused :)).
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Dave Otto on January 17, 2016, 01:11:07 AM
Nice save Kim!

And you have some new skills that can be but to use down the road.

Dave
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: 10KPete on January 17, 2016, 03:41:29 AM
Great recovery, Kim! Similar to what wood workers do with a broken screw. And now you want to keep that neat little
tool right next to the mill so as to put any other bits that might think about breaking  on notice! Make 'em behave!

 :cheers:

Pete
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Don1966 on January 17, 2016, 03:53:49 AM
Nice work Kim and great save..... Very useful learning for down the road....... :ThumbsUp:

Don
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on January 17, 2016, 06:27:09 AM
Thanks Dave, Pete, and Don!

That's a great idea Pete!  I'll set that little tool right where the other bits can see it! Intimidate them into behaving!  :ROFL:

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: fumopuc on January 17, 2016, 07:47:05 AM
Hi Kim, great recovery. After getting the soldering department running quite well, the toolmaker department has started its set up.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: joe d on January 17, 2016, 12:55:13 PM
Nice one, Kim :ThumbsUp:

Looking forward to your next installment....

Joe
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on January 17, 2016, 03:30:10 PM
Thanks for the comments and support Achim and Joe,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Bearcar1 on January 17, 2016, 04:45:24 PM
Kim, Ive been lurking, but have been monitoring your progress with keen interest. Nice recovery on that last 'oh crap' moment. Well done! Im looking forward to seeing more of your progress.  :ThumbsUp: :popcorn: :DrinkPint:


BC1
Jim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: scc on January 18, 2016, 10:36:00 AM
Kim,  I just repeat all that has been said....great recovery,  and I've learnt something new again. Seems to happen a lot on this forum.......Learning that is, not breaking drills!!!       Cheers,                 Terry
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Roger B on January 18, 2016, 07:16:24 PM
Nice recovery  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp: I'm still following along  :wine1:
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on January 20, 2016, 04:56:52 AM
Hi Jim, Terry and Roger, thanks for the kind words!

One more update after the weekend. It took me a while to prep this update, because sadly, I lost all my pictures  :Mad:   So everything you see in this post is a 'post production' fake.  When I discovered they were all gone, I went back out to the shop and staged a few pictures. It makes me unduly sad. I had a good story line to go with my pictures. But I lost the whole thing.  :'(

OK, enough wallowing in my self-indulgent self pity and I'll get on with this marginally documented update.  :-\

I left off having just silver soldered my 2nd plug into the casing.  So I filed it down flush, and drilled the rivet hole.  After that, I put it back on the lathe and cleaned it up.  It looks pretty nice now!
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/009e-BoilerOuterCasing-5-DSC_1017Sm.jpg)

And here's a close-up of my patch job.  The reason the ring varies in width is that the hole is threaded, and the fat part is where the thread is starting. (http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/009e-BoilerOuterCasing-1-DSC_1032Sm.jpg)

The last operation on the Boiler Shell is to cut a 3" chunk out of the back end to make room for the fire box.  To do this, I used a pair of woodworkers clamps to stabilize the tube. I clamped them such that the tips of the clamp were flush with bottom of the tube which helped to stabilize it and keep it from rotating.  I cut the long 3" cut first (slow and careful - I marked the part of the tube that was to be cut off to help avoid a potentially disastrous mistake!):
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/009e-BoilerOuterCasing-2-DSC_1028Sm.jpg)

Then the other direction, from the bottom (remember, these photos are staged - the chunk had already been removed - I had to hold it in place for these pictures).
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/009e-BoilerOuterCasing-3-DSC_1031Sm.jpg)

The bandsaw cuts would probably have been OK as they were since this portion will be hidden behind sheet metal.  But I chose to clean up the cuts on the mill to make things nice a tidy and so that I could use these edges as horizontal references.  Again, sorry, no pictures of this operation, but here it is, complete:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/009e-BoilerOuterCasing-4-DSC_1039Sm.jpg)

The next step was to make a bunch of shafts; the Rear Axle, Crankshaft, Countershaft, and Front Axle.  Most of these were noting more than cutting a rod to length.  But the Front Axle required some work - it has some tapers for interest, and some grooves for circlips to retain the front wheels.  No pictures of the construction, but here's a shot of the completed Front Axle:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/009e-BoilerOuterCasing-6-DSC_1015Sm.jpg)

And finally, I will leave you all with my current family shot.  All the parts I've made for the tractor to date (including the bit removal tool (at the top) :)):
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/009e-BoilerOuterCasing-7-DSC_1023Sm.jpg)

Next, I'll be starting the sheet metal work!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: vcutajar on January 20, 2016, 05:34:21 AM
Quietly following along in the background and admiring your patience.

Vince
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: fumopuc on January 20, 2016, 05:41:21 AM
Looking at the parts should be a reason to open a bottle (of what ever), to sit down and to enjoy.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: 10KPete on January 20, 2016, 06:43:17 AM
Looking at the parts should be a reason to open a bottle (of what ever), to sit down and to enjoy.

Indeed! Well deserved!!

 :cheers:

Pete
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 20, 2016, 11:20:53 AM
Better to lose the pics than the parts.
But sorry for the loss.

Good looking parts!
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on January 20, 2016, 11:43:13 AM
What  nice family shot Kim!!  And that boiler casing really cleaned up well. Sorry about the picture loss but the end result(s) speak for themselves!!  Well done.

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Don1966 on January 20, 2016, 01:52:44 PM
Great results Kim no matter if you loss the photos or not. Well done!

Don
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on January 20, 2016, 03:27:29 PM
Thank you all for your comments and support. I do appreciate it.
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on January 24, 2016, 01:19:06 AM
Well, I said my next step was to start the sheet metal work. Turns out I was wrong.  I needed to put in the rivets in the boiler shell.  Not as exciting, but it needs to be done. So that was my activity for the day.

As I was putting in the rivets, I messed up on one of them (OK, I messed up on a lot of them, but one was REALLY bad).  It had bent over when I was setting it and it looked badly out of line.  So I milled the head off and drilled out the rivet and did it again.

Just look at the one that's badly out of line (to the left of the mill), not all the other bad ones.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/009f-BoilerOuterCasing-1-DSC_1042Sm.jpg)

I still had a bunch of open holes, so I used those to line things up on, and used my cool new cheap-o DRO to move back to the right position to drill out the rivet.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/009f-BoilerOuterCasing-2-DSC_1044Sm.jpg)

And a few dozen rivets later, here it is!  The boiler shell is all riveted up.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/009f-BoilerOuterCasing-3-DSC_1054Sm.jpg)

NEXT time, I'll start the sheet metal! :)
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on January 24, 2016, 01:35:15 AM
That's a lot of work Kim and I think it turned out very well. Just remember that back in the day the real ones weren't perfect by any means. I think we all look more critically at our own work. I hadn't realized how thick that boiler shell tubing was either but these latest photos really show it. Well done!!

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: vcutajar on January 24, 2016, 06:06:12 AM
I like the idea of that blue tape.

Vince
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on January 24, 2016, 06:24:02 AM
Thanks Bill and Vince,

Just remember that back in the day the real ones weren't perfect by any means. I think we all look more critically at our own work.
Yes, I was thinking about that too while I was pounding away.  All my imperfections HAVE to make it more like a real piece of machinery.  There's no way the did all those rivets without some marring of the shell, or nicking a rivet head or two :)

I've just decided to view this as my 'practice tractor'.  I'll learn all the skills on this, and then my next one will have fewer blemishes!  And building something real makes practicing much more fun compared to just doing practice rivets, etc.  As long as I'm learning and having fun, what more could I ask for, right?

I hadn't realized how thick that boiler shell tubing was either but these latest photos really show it.
Yeah, its a substantial hunk of steel!  The wall is 5/32" thick, and the boiler shell on its own weighs several pounds.  The tractor's going to be pretty heavy!

I like the idea of that blue tape.
Thanks Vince.  I wish I'd thought of it sooner.  I put the tape on to protect things after I'd put a couple of good scratches in it already.  I plan on paining it anyway, but I don't want to have to depend on filler too much!

Thanks,
KIm
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Dave Otto on January 24, 2016, 04:26:46 PM
Hi Kim

The boiler shell is looking very nice; progress in the right direction too! Looking forward to more.

Dave
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Don1966 on January 24, 2016, 04:37:59 PM
Nice work Kim and believe me I am one to be very hard on myself and like Bill said we have a habit of being over critical of our own work.

Don
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: joe d on January 24, 2016, 04:41:25 PM
Looking good, Kim.

That IS a thick piece of tubing... must have gotten tired of it by the time you finished drilling all those rivet holes!

Joe
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on January 24, 2016, 06:27:57 PM
Thanks for looking in Dave, Don, and Joe. Appreciate the support! 

Yes, Joe, quit happy to have gotten many of the rivet holes behind me.  Unfortunately, I've still got more to go.  That's how the cab will be connected to the boiler casing; another row of rivets!  :o
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Bearcar1 on January 24, 2016, 07:04:17 PM
Hiya Kim, Bill is absolutely correct in saying that the real deal, full-sized engines were not as exactly aligned as we would like to believe. Of course be as you are working on a much smaller scale only amplifies the effects of something out of alignment. You are doing a terrific job here and I am enjoying the ride. Keep it up friend, and it will be a beautiful thing to behold. The best IS yet to come.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:


BC1
Jim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on January 31, 2016, 02:21:37 AM
Hi Jim, thanks for the reply. I really appreciate the support!

Now I've officially entered into the sheet metal phase of the project.  First up, is the FireBox Wrapper.  This part will wrap around the back end of the Boiler Outer Casing and is made from a piece of 22 gauge steel sheet.

First thing was to mark it out:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/010a-FireBoxWrapper-01-DSC_1057Sm.jpg)

Next I used my horizontal bandsaw in 'vertical' mode, and did a rough cutout.  I haven't figured out a better way to cut the sheet metal than to saw it and clean it up.  So that's what I did. After cutting, I clamped it between some pieces of steel and filed it close to my line.  Made it a lot more even at least.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/010a-FireBoxWrapper-02-DSC_1066Sm.jpg)

Then I took it to the belt/disk sander and cleaned up the edges a bit more, squaring them up nicely.  After that, I popped center marks for all the rivet holes.  Is there a more accurate way to do this?  This was OK, but it seems there's got to be a more accurate way.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/010a-FireBoxWrapper-03-DSC_1074Sm.jpg)

And drilled all the rivet holes.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/010a-FireBoxWrapper-04-DSC_1076Sm.jpg)

Here's the FireBox Wrapper, before it is bent into shape.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/010a-FireBoxWrapper-05-DSC_1080Sm.jpg)

After bending into shape around the boiler casing, I marked and drilled the bolt holes to attach the horn plates.  I know it would have been easier to drill the holes while it was still flat, before bending, but I was unsure of how much the metal would stretch in the bending process.  All the measurements need to be relative to the centerline of the boiler casing, and until I knew where that fell, I wasn't sure where to put the holes.  Turns out the metal didn't stretch as much as I thought it might, but it did some.  So I'm glad I waited.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/010a-FireBoxWrapper-06-DSC_1086Sm.jpg)

Then I had to rivet the FireBox Wrapper to the Boiler Casing.

I finally broke down and purchased some nice #55 drill bits as Dave O (and others I believe) recommended.  I ordered a set of these off Amazon: Cleveland 2133 Style Cobalt Steel Short Length Drill Bit, Bronze Oxide, Round Shank, 135 Degree Split Point, #55 (Pack of 10) (http://"http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00075EN10?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00").  And WOW!  They cut that steel like butter!  I kid you not.  I couldn't BELIEVE the difference.  Not that I ever doubted you Dave, but I had no IDEA how much difference a real drill bit could make.  Wow! Is all I can say.  I am quite irritated with myself for going through so much heartache with those stupid cheap bits.  These cost a couple bucks each, but MAN! What a difference!  Like butter I tell you! :cartwheel:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/010a-FireBoxWrapper-07-DSC_1089Sm.jpg)

Anyway, after my religious conversion to US made drill bits, I was pretty pumped.  I put in a rivet there, then drilled for a second hole to help hold the FireBox wrapper in place.  Here's my first two rivets:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/010a-FireBoxWrapper-08-DSC_1090Sm.jpg)

For the first two holes I was holding the casing on V-blocks by hand, but this didn't feel very secure (obviously).  So, I worked up this fixture to allow me to fairly easily rotate, clamp, then move into position.  It worked pretty well. Much more secure too.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/010a-FireBoxWrapper-09-DSC_1095Sm.jpg)

Using my fixture, I drilled a couple of holes on each side, then set the rivets, then drilled a few more holes, set the rivets, etc.  Another thing I did was to pre-trim the rivets to length.  To do this, used a cast off piece of the DOM tube and a spacer then clipped the pin off flush. After I found a good length for the rivets I used it for all of them. (Not an original idea, I know! I learned it from you all!)
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/010a-FireBoxWrapper-10-DSC_1098Sm.jpg)

Here's the first row of rivets, completed.  Looks like I'll need to add one more rivet to my horizontal line on the boiler there.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/010a-FireBoxWrapper-11-DSC_1099Sm.jpg)

And here's an inside shot.  I'm getting the hang of this riveting thing.  It's going much faster, and I'm not fighting each one as much.  These all went in looking pretty good.  I may have to go back and redo some of my previous rivets.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/010a-FireBoxWrapper-13-DSC_1107Sm.jpg)

Here's a shot of the superstructure as it stands now.  Next I'll do that back row of rivets.  Then, the FireBox Throatsheet.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/010a-FireBoxWrapper-12-DSC_1103Sm.jpg)

And If you want to join my cult of only using quality drill bits, let me know.  I'm sure there will be a new set of quality drill bits coming my way in the near future! I'll be watching for sales.  If you see any good deals, let me know!

Thanks for following along,
Kim

[edit: changed 20GA to 22GA steel sheet.]
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: 10KPete on January 31, 2016, 03:19:24 AM
I've been watching you build this boiler as these engines are very interesting to me. Your adventures with riveting have been,
well,...riveting! It's so good to see you have conquered this stubborn task. Keep 'er goin' 'cause I wanna see the rest of the
story!!

Pete
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: fumopuc on January 31, 2016, 06:08:34 AM
Hi Kim, I am quitely following along.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on January 31, 2016, 06:33:03 AM
Thank you Pete and Achim,

Pete, its amazing what a little practice and experience can do! (very little of course :)).  I feel that I'm going to have to go over the old rivets and replace several.  I think my standards have gone up!

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 31, 2016, 12:32:29 PM
Looking excellent and I'm glad things are going well.

I'm with you on drill bits.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Don1966 on January 31, 2016, 02:48:46 PM
Looks great Kim and glad to see you moving forward bud........... :ThumbsUp:

Don
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: 10KPete on January 31, 2016, 04:01:23 PM
Thank you Pete and Achim,

Pete, its amazing what a little practice and experience can do! (very little of course :)).  I feel that I'm going to have to go over the old rivets and replace several.  I think my standards have gone up!

Kim

It's funny how that works.....  :hammerbash:  Age and experience beat youth and strength every time!  :old:

 :cheers:

Pete
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on January 31, 2016, 04:06:56 PM
Thanks for the comments Zee and Don!
Always moving forward, even if it is at a glacial pace Don.
Getting one piece half riveted in place in 2 weeks isn't much different than boring one hole in a week, is it Zee?   :ROFL:

Pete, doesn't someone here have that as their tag line? :)

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: zeeprogrammer on January 31, 2016, 04:24:48 PM
Getting one piece half riveted in place in 2 weeks isn't much different than boring one hole in a week, is it Zee?   :ROFL:

Maybe in time but not in interesting operations.
I have a project I'd like to do some time that requires rivets. I've never done it...so I'm learning a lot here.  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Dave Otto on January 31, 2016, 04:31:57 PM
Hey it's all progress in the right direction; even if it is only one hole or one piece of sheet metal.  :lolb:

Great progress on the boiler Shell Kim; It's really staring to look the part. I'm glad the new drills are work out good for you.
Can you summarize what you have found that works for you in setting the rivets; If you did I may have missed it?

I'm working on an assembly that has a number of 3/32 copper rivets to set, and would love to hear what is working for you. After doing some test pieces I have pretty much decided not to attempt to form a full round head on the cut end; they don't show anyway.

Thanks for the update  :ThumbsUp:

Dave

 
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on January 31, 2016, 04:35:11 PM
Great to see your progress Kim, and the epiphany 're: US made drills. You are so right, the difference is astounding. Are you looking to get a full letter, number, and fractional set now?

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Roger B on January 31, 2016, 05:21:21 PM
That's a frightening number of rivets  ::) Enjoying the build  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp:  :wine1:
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on February 01, 2016, 04:48:43 AM
Thanks Zee, Bill, Dave, and Roger for the kind words.

Dave, here's the things that have been the biggest help to me on riveting:
None of these are original with me, of course.  I learned it all from you generous people on this forum.  But this is my assimilation of that knowledge.

I have found that getting the right length on the rivet is very important - if the rivet is is too long, it bends over and makes an off center head, or alternately, it's just too big and gets a ugly in other ways. But if I cut it too short, there's not enough material to form a full head.

I've also found that having a tool that helps to initially spread the rivet really helps.  Even when the rivet is the correct length, it can bend over quite easily. If it does this, the head becomes misshapen and off to one side.   This extra tool helps by expanding the rivet and compressing it shorter so that the rivet head is more easily formed without it bending over.

So I use these three tools, in three steps, to set a rivet:(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/010a-FireBoxWrapper-Riveting.JPG)
(This is a really cool picture. I  didn't draw it, but I can't remember where I got it from.  So if any of you know, please let me know so I can give appropriate attribution.  It was a very helpful picture for me!)

If, however, the rivet is only exposed on one side, like the ones I've been doing for the boiler shell here, then I use the factory made head on the outside and make the 'formed head' on the inside. In these cases I cut the rivet shorter than the official specified length (the "official" specified length is shown in the left diagram).  A shorter rivet makes a little mushroom head instead of a well shaped, rounded rivet head.  But I do this because I can't use that tool 2 that I find so helpful on the inside. And without that middle tool, I almost always get the bending over thing, and the rivet just won't set right.  So for these non-standard rivets, I cut the rivet a little shorter (i.e. not enough material to form a full head), use the rounded tool (Tool 3) on the outside to keep the factory formed rivet head nice, and set the rivet that way.

This has been working pretty well for me.

This would probably work for you in your situation Dave.  Or you could try that intermediate tool #2.  I really found that to help a lot. (read about it in Stan's boiler build).

And of course, I'm learning how to do it without leaving as many marks on the surrounding material.  But it still happens.  I'm still not that good. :)
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on February 01, 2016, 05:04:53 AM
Nice write up on the riveting Kim. That will help a lot of us now or in the future I am sure!!

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: 10KPete on February 01, 2016, 05:40:36 AM
I've done a bit of riveting but never seen a chart on how to do it right. Sucker's down loaded!

Thanks,
Pete
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 01, 2016, 11:29:43 AM
Nice post! This is very helpful.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Dave Otto on February 02, 2016, 02:03:08 AM
 Hi Kim,

I have the same problem as you, in some places it will be very difficult to get the tools in place to set the rivet. One thing that I didn't try in my test was tool #1, I will have to make one and give it a try. When I first saw the drawing I thought wow, he went to way too much trouble.  :lolb:

Thanks for taking the time to answer my question I appreciate it.
Dave
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on February 02, 2016, 05:32:20 AM
Glad you found it of some value.

Dave, I hear you.  When I first read about other people making multiple tools for riveting (Stan for example :)) I kinda thought it was overkill.  So I went with the minimalist approach.  But as I worked with it and ran into problems, I started to see how each of those things I thought was 'overkill' would help me get around my problems. So, in the end, I've got just as many tools as Stan did.  Should have taken his blog more to heart to start with!

Thinking about it more, I think that cool picture came from one of the UK sites that Jason pointed me to.  But I can't find exactly where.  I can post the PDF of it if people are interested (maybe its better than the screen shot JPG I took so I could post it on PhotoBucket ::) ).
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on February 07, 2016, 03:40:16 AM
Today's first job was to finish attaching the Firebox Wrapper to the boiler shell.  This went pretty quickly with my new, incredible, amazing drill bits. :cartwheel:  Here I'm drilling one of the last rivet holes in the boiler shell:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/011a-SteeringBracketMount-01-DSC_1109Sm.jpg)


Next up is the Steering Bracket Mounts.  These are small simple sheet metal parts that will (eventually) hold the steering mechanism.

Starting with a small squared up piece of 22GA sheet steel, I marked out the part, and cut it close(ish) to the line.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/011a-SteeringBracketMount-02-DSC_1115Sm.jpg)

Then, using my disk sander, I squared up the edges I just cut.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/011a-SteeringBracketMount-03-DSC_1116Sm.jpg)

Here's a shot of the Steering Bracket Mounts after drilling the mounting holes. I laid them out the same, but they need to be mirror images of each other (left & right).  Luckily, as long as I flip one of them over before I bend it, I'll be OK.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/011a-SteeringBracketMount-04-DSC_1125Sm.jpg)

After lining it up carefully, I bent the angle with my cheap, but serviceable brake from Harbor Freight.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/011a-SteeringBracketMount-05-DSC_1126Sm.jpg)

And here they are, Left and Right!  (I remembered :))
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/011a-SteeringBracketMount-06-DSC_1134Sm.jpg)

Those didn't take too long, so I had time to start the Firebox Throatsheet.  I'll cover this in my next post.

Thanks for looking in.
Kim

[edit: changed 20GA to 22GA steel sheet.]
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on February 07, 2016, 03:43:55 AM
On to the Firebox Throatsheet.

The process here is very similar.  But since I'm new at this sheet metal stuff, I'm going to share it in excruciating detail again.  I promise I'll drop some of the details soon, but this is how I learn; exposing my weird machinations to you all so that you can tell me better ways to do it!  :embarassed:

Again, starting with some 22GA steel, which I previously squared up one corner, then blued, I marked up the Firebox Throatsheet.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/012a-FireboxThroatsheet-01-DSC_1137Sm.jpg)

Then cut it to approximate size with the bandsaw.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/012a-FireboxThroatsheet-02-DSC_1141Sm.jpg)

And squared up the fresh-cut edges on the disk sander, bring it to the correct size.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/012a-FireboxThroatsheet-03-DSC_1148Sm.jpg)

To cut the semicircle out of the top I used these fancy shear items - not exactly a nibbler, but not standard sheers.  These don't seem to curl the sheet quite as much as regular sheers.  And they took the corner OK, as long as I went slow and careful.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/012a-FireboxThroatsheet-04-DSC_1152Sm.jpg)

Well, the end of the cut got a little bent up, but I was able to straighten that out using some flat jaw pliers.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/012a-FireboxThroatsheet-05-DSC_1156Sm.jpg)

Then using a drum sander in the drill press, I sanded up to the marked line.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/012a-FireboxThroatsheet-06-DSC_1162Sm.jpg)

Then I kept sanding (carefully!) till I got a good fit around the boiler shell.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/012a-FireboxThroatsheet-07-DSC_1164Sm.jpg)

Next, it was off to the brake to bend the edges for riveting.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/012a-FireboxThroatsheet-08-DSC_1168Sm.jpg)

Here's the finished part:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/012a-FireboxThroatsheet-09-DSC_1169Sm.jpg)

And what it will look like in place:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/012a-FireboxThroatsheet-10-DSC_1177Sm.jpg)

No to drill and rivet. :)

It's starting to feel real!
Thanks for following along.  And any suggestions you may have on my sheet metal work would be more than welcome!

Thanks,
Kim

[edit: changed 20GA to 22GA steel sheet.]
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: fumopuc on February 07, 2016, 08:08:27 AM
Hi Kim, looking great your fabrication work.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: mal webber on February 07, 2016, 10:54:44 AM
Looking good Kim.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Bertie_Bassett on February 07, 2016, 12:33:26 PM
looking good there! keep it up
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 07, 2016, 12:38:34 PM
It's starting to feel real!

Exciting!  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on February 07, 2016, 03:33:35 PM
Thanks Mal, Bertie, and Zee!

I can tell you, I'm pretty excited about it right now :)

I also have a confession to make - I've been lying in my posts.  I said I was using 20 gauge sheet steel (0.0359")for the metal work. We'll, its really 22 gauge (0.0299").  Oops...  I'll go edit my posts to fix that.   :-[

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Don1966 on February 07, 2016, 03:58:51 PM
Good to see you moving forward Kim. You know I have the same bending brake and love it. Keep it coming bud.......... :ThumbsUp:

Don
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on February 07, 2016, 03:59:29 PM
Nice fabrication work Kim and the fit looks spot on too!! Does that HF brake handle this stock pretty well?

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Dave Otto on February 07, 2016, 04:14:23 PM
Hi Kim

Looks like you are getting along with the sheet metal pretty well; the boiler shell is coming along nicely.

Dave
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on February 07, 2016, 04:37:47 PM
Thanks Don, Bill, and Dave!

Yes, the little HF brake has been working well for this 20 GA steel.  I did some heavier brass on it too for something - it was 6-8" wide, and it worked quite well for that.  Didn't groan or complain at all.

Its a little slower to use than brakes I've used before, but at $30 its hard to complain too much!  Someday, maybe I'll get a real bending brake.  But they don't give them away.  A quality squaring sheer would be welcome too. But I'll just do it my slow way, and maybe someday I'll upgrade :)

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: scc on February 09, 2016, 10:49:54 PM
Excellent work Kim :ThumbsUp:    Terry
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on February 10, 2016, 07:06:26 AM
Thank you Terry,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on February 14, 2016, 02:45:58 AM
Before I attached the Throat Sheet, I decided to add another rivet to my row of decorative rivets on the side of the Boiler Shell (if you'll recall, it was short one rivet). While I was doing that, I decided to replace a few of the ugliest, most offensive rivets. But as I started working on it, I realized I was offended by a lot of the rivets. By the time I was was done, I'd replaced about 15 of them!  And now looking at the picture, while it looks better, I can see another half dozen that I probably should have drilled out and replaced.  Maybe later. For now, I'm ready to move on.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/012b-FireboxThroatsheet-01-DSC_1196Sm.jpg)

I devised a way to clamp the Throat Sheet in place and then drilled the rivet holes using the Firebox Wrapper as a guilde.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/012b-FireboxThroatsheet-02-DSC_1186Sm.jpg)

Here's a close-up of that process.  After drilling a couple of holes, I stuck brads through them to help keep things aligned.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/012b-FireboxThroatsheet-03-DSC_1184Sm.jpg)

Here's the progress after a few rivets.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/012b-FireboxThroatsheet-04-DSC_1194Sm.jpg)

At this point, I needed to figure out where to position the Steering Bracket Mounts.  When I figured that out, I clamped them in place, and again, used the rivet holes in the Firebox Wrapper as a template for drilling the rivet holes.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/012b-FireboxThroatsheet-05-DSC_1205Sm.jpg)

Here's the same process on the opposite side.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/012b-FireboxThroatsheet-06-DSC_1211Sm.jpg)

And here's the Throat Sheet and Steering Bracket Mounts riveted in place.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/012b-FireboxThroatsheet-07-DSC_1212Sm.jpg)

And the other side:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/012b-FireboxThroatsheet-08-DSC_1213Sm.jpg)

A shot from the inside, showing the back of the rivets.  The heads that don't show aren't very pretty, but they are holding quite well!
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/012b-FireboxThroatsheet-09-DSC_1216Sm.jpg)

Here's a final parting shot of where we're at:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/012b-FireboxThroatsheet-10-DSC_1221Sm.jpg)

Thanks for following along,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Bearcar1 on February 14, 2016, 02:52:42 AM
That is a handsome piece of work KIM, well done….. I am enjoying the adventure with you. Thanks for posting up your progress.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :popcorn:


BC1
Jim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Don1966 on February 14, 2016, 03:18:39 AM
Nice piece of work Kim, you should be elated.......... :ThumbsUp:

Don
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: joe d on February 14, 2016, 05:39:09 AM
Looking good, Kim :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

You're getting the hang of those rivets.

Joe
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on February 14, 2016, 07:08:25 AM
Thanks Jim, Don, and Joe, for the kind words!
The encouragement is greatly appreciated!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: mal webber on February 14, 2016, 10:44:05 AM
Kim its looking really nice with you.

Mal
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 14, 2016, 12:09:12 PM
And now looking at the picture, while it looks better, I can see another half dozen that I probably should have drilled out and replaced. 

You may be just 'too close to the work' if you get my meaning.

Looking great to me.

 :popcorn:
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on February 14, 2016, 01:31:20 PM
Zee is right Kim...I think it looks fantastic. I really admire your patience and tenacity, and it shows in the results!!!

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on February 14, 2016, 03:22:07 PM
Thank you Mal, Zee, and Bill!
While it's true that we each are our own worst critic, if you held it in your hand and looked at it, I have no doubt that each of you could see the issues that I see.  They aren't all that subtle  :-[

Be that as it may, this is my practice engine!  My next one will be better! It's so much more fun and motivational to have your practice work be something that your excited about!  Doing 500 rivets on their own would be good practice, but it wouldn't hold my attention.  This way I'm excited to go work on my practice piece and I end up with something cool and exciting, even it if has blemishes.  And I'll improve even more on my next project! :)

Thanks for the support!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on February 14, 2016, 09:11:50 PM
Kim, I think it's looking great;  you're becoming quite the "Rosie " with the riveting  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: and the sheet metal skills aint bad either  :cheers:

Cletus
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 14, 2016, 10:20:10 PM
you're becoming quite the "Rosie " with the riveting

Uh oh. Another moniker that may stick.

Kill it before it grows Kim.  ;D
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Dave Otto on February 15, 2016, 01:31:59 AM
Kim

It's beautiful! We as builders know where every little problem is; but as you continue to make and add parts all those little things you are not completely happy with will just disappear and you know how to do it better on the next project.

You should be very happy and proud with what you have accomplished.

Dave
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on February 15, 2016, 06:26:16 AM
Cletus, Zee, and Dave, thank you for your kind comments and your continued support!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: vcutajar on February 15, 2016, 01:10:53 PM
Great work Kim.  You have the patience of a saint to do all those rivets.

Vince
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on February 17, 2016, 05:38:20 AM
Thank you Vince! :)

Next on the build list is a set of 6 Bering Blocks.  These are made from 3/16" aluminum bar stock, with 3/8" bronze inserts.

I started by cutting all six to size, 5/8" square (they were cut from 3/4" wide stock, which is what I had on hand).  The smaller piece is the Idler Mount.  This isn't really a bearing, just a place to attach the short shaft for the idler gear.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/013a-BearingBlocks-01-DSC_1226Sm.jpg)

I setup a stop on the mill so that I could slide the Bearing Blocks in place and repeatably perform a series actions on each block.  First I drilled and reamed a 1/4" hole.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/013a-BearingBlocks-02-DSC_1229Sm.jpg)

Then I drilled 2 holes in each block, and tapped them for 2-56 threads.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/013a-BearingBlocks-03-DSC_1235Sm.jpg)

Finally, I drilled out one side to 3/8", 1/8" deep, using a 3/8" end mill.  This is where the bearing will be pressed in place.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/013a-BearingBlocks-04-DSC_1237Sm.jpg)

This shot is showing the final step of making the Idler Mount, which was an 8-32 threaded hole to mount the Idler Gear Shaft.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/013a-BearingBlocks-05-DSC_1239Sm.jpg)

Here's all the work completed on the Bearing Blocks.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/013a-BearingBlocks-06-DSC_1242Sm.jpg)

Now for the Bearings.  These were made from a piece of 3/8" (ish) Bronze.  It was actually more like 0.415", so I turned it down to a nice light friction fit for the 3/8" holes  just made. Then I drilled & reamed a 1/4" hole in the center.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/013a-BearingBlocks-07-DSC_1250Sm.jpg)

After this, I used my new indexed parting/slotting tool that I just got.  It worked quite well!  It sliced six 1/8" wide donuts off just like that, clean as you please!
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/013a-BearingBlocks-08-DSC_1254Sm.jpg)

And here are the 6 bronze bearings.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/013a-BearingBlocks-09-DSC_1256Sm.jpg)

Finally, I pressed the bearings into the blocks.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/013a-BearingBlocks-10-DSC_1258Sm.jpg)

It wasn't too hard to do, but they won't fall out accidentally.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/013a-BearingBlocks-11-DSC_1259Sm.jpg)

The completed Bearing Blocks & Idler Mount:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/013a-BearingBlocks-12-DSC_1263Sm.jpg)

Next will be the Horn Plates, where I will mount all of these pieces for the various shafts.

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: fumopuc on February 17, 2016, 05:52:26 AM
Hi Kim, nice progress. I have to think about such a little arbor press, too. May be with the right self made tools a good helper for riveting.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 17, 2016, 10:43:13 AM
Looking good Kim.

I've been thinking of an arbor press myself. What size (if that's the right term) is yours?
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on February 17, 2016, 02:57:29 PM
Those turned out excellent Kim. Less tedious that all the riveting too I am sure :)

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: mal webber on February 17, 2016, 03:22:12 PM
Hi Kim ,those bearing blocks have turned out very nice indeed .can I ask what sort of size is the engine going to be when finished Kim.

Cheers Mal.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Bearcar1 on February 17, 2016, 03:33:12 PM
N-I-C-E !!!!  very neat work Kim. I am looking forward to seeing more.


BC1
Jim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on February 17, 2016, 03:49:18 PM
Nice job Kim. You are just becoming an all around master manipulator of metal  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

Cletus
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Dave Otto on February 17, 2016, 04:29:00 PM
Nice work Kim!

Won't be too long and you will have a rolling chassis.

Dave
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Don1966 on February 17, 2016, 07:00:15 PM
Moving right along are we, like dog said master manipulator............. :ThumbsUp:

Don
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on February 18, 2016, 03:15:29 AM
Thank you all for the encouraging comments!

I've been thinking of an arbor press myself. What size (if that's the right term) is yours?
This is an inexpensive 1 Ton arbor press from Harbor Freight.  I think I picked it up on sale for ~$40 a couple of years back.

Less tedious that all the riveting too I am sure :)
Yes, it was a nice change from the riveting! :)

can I ask what sort of size is the engine going to be when finished?
I believe it will be about 16" long, give or take.  That'd be 40cm or so for the rest of the world.

Thanks,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on February 21, 2016, 12:23:47 AM
Today, I started work on the horn plates.

I cut two pieces of 20 GA sheet steel to the approximate size, then marked one of them up:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/014a-HornPlates-00-DSC_1271Sm.jpg)

Then I double-sticky-taped them together.  Like so:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/014a-HornPlates-01-DSC_1289Sm.jpg)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/014a-HornPlates-02-DSC_1291Sm.jpg)

Then I used all my sheet metal wiles to make them look like horn plates.  A little filing:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/014a-HornPlates-03-DSC_1295Sm.jpg)

A little sanding to get them all square:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/014a-HornPlates-04-DSC_1299Sm.jpg)

A little more sanding to round off the corner.  I actually used the band saw to cut the corner off first, before using the disk sander.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/014a-HornPlates-05-DSC_1300Sm.jpg)

Then nibbled out the notch, and filed it clean.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/014a-HornPlates-06-DSC_1303Sm.jpg)

Finally, I drilled all the holes.  I was holding the sheet metal down on a block of wood thinking that allowing the sheet some mobility would let it center more easily on the punch mark. And this had been working fairly well.

However, on one of my last holes, something happened.  I must have missed the punch mark and the sheet started wiggling a lot and I got one of those triangle holes. :(  I was not happy.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/014a-HornPlates-07-DSC_1313Sm.jpg)

This was my hole:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/014a-HornPlates-08-DSC_1311Sm.jpg)

So after considering what I could do to recover this mess, and being grumpy for a while, I decided the best thing to do was to call these practice and move on. So, I started from the beginning again. And this time, when I went to drill the holes, I did it right and clamped everything down.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/014a-HornPlates-09-DSC_1319Sm.jpg)

So, for a long morning of work, this is what I have to show for it:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/014a-HornPlates-10-DSC_1327Sm.jpg)

Next I'll be attaching the bearing blocks to the Horn Plates.

Thanks for watching,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Dave Otto on February 21, 2016, 12:51:32 AM
Hi Kim

Nice mornings work there!
I'm not exactly sure why, but sheet metal doesn't like twist drills; usually you end up with the triangular shaped holes. :wallbang: Maybe it has to do with the hardness or lack of.

Dave
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Don1966 on February 21, 2016, 12:54:27 AM
Bummer Kim, but that usually happens with a fair size bit, if the work isn't secured. Even secured you will notice vibrations in cutting, but thin stock the bit can grab and yank the piece out of your hands if unsecured. Second time is a charm and looks great. You might consider step drilling on fairly larger holes.

Don
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on February 21, 2016, 06:32:54 AM
Thanks Dave and Don,

Yeah, I will plan on step drilling any large holes in the future.  The holes that were giving me grief were only 1/4", but apparently, that's big enough to cause problems.

I do have a inexpensive (read cheap) Harbor Freight punch that I might try, but I only have a few fractional sizes.  No #33, or #19 and the like.  But I'm sure I've got 1/4".  Pretty sure it wouldn't punch through two 20 GA plates though. And the throat isn't very deep.  I'll probably stick with step drilling...

Thanks for the input, I really appreciate it,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: fumopuc on February 21, 2016, 06:51:25 AM
Hi Kim, you have made a very interessting hole in your first set of horn plates. Glad to see that your hands are unharmed.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 21, 2016, 11:24:07 AM
Kudos that it didn't stop you. (I often go do something else for a while when I have a mishap after a lot of work.)

Good looking plates.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on February 21, 2016, 01:19:15 PM
That's a shame about the hole in the first set Kum, but take two looks perfect. Persistence pays off yet again.

Bilk
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on February 21, 2016, 06:42:56 PM
Thanks Achim, Zee, and Bill,

Persistence is about all I have going for me.  And all the help from you on this excellent forum! :)

Achim, thanks for the concern regarding my hands.  I am aware of the potential for sheet metal to grab when drilling and start spinning like a blade.  I was being very careful of that, and luckily, that didn't happen.  The hole just got a bad start and was wiggling while drilling.  In my youthful (yeah right) optimism, I hoped it would sort itself out as I pushed on through. Well, as you can see, that didn't happen.  My optimism actually paid off with one of the earlier holes.  But not on this one.  I was aware of the potential here, I know that round bits can drill triangle holes. I've had it happen before. But somehow, I thought it wouldn't happen with a 1/4" bit.  I was wrong.  And I've re-learned my lesson.  Re-doing a part like that helps cement in the resolution not to try and take shortcuts in the future!  :-\

Thank you for your support!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on February 21, 2016, 07:31:57 PM
Nice work Kim.  I saw this on YouTube, but, I have never tried it.  I remembered it when I read your post. 4HOxfZKIZQk I'm still  :popcorn: :DrinkPint: and following along.

Cletus
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on February 21, 2016, 08:55:51 PM
Interesting video Cletus.  Thanks for sharing it.  I've never heard of that trick before.  Wonder why a bit of cloth helps?  Maybe it keeps the edges of the bit from catching on the sheet metal.  Has anybody tried this trick before?  Any first hand knowledge on the forum?

Thanks,
Kim

Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Steamer5 on February 21, 2016, 11:44:15 PM
Hi Kim,
 Still following along & enjoying the progress, even the pitfalls!

About the drilling, an old friend of mine explained that it had something to do with material thickness verses drill diameter, hence the reason the smaller holes were no problem.

I pinched, well borrowed...but long term,  a set of Blue Point Rotabroach sheet metal cutter form my dad. Sizes 5/16" to 3/4", cutting holes in sheet upto 1/4" is a breeze! They also come in metric for those of us who like them that way......must get a set! These would be a nice addition to your quality drill range! Oh looks like they are made Snap on tools so should be quality......

Maybe another idea, stick some more off cuts of your sheet steel on top, or behind is probably better as the you can find your marks, could probably use thicker material to save joins with your tape.

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on February 22, 2016, 04:18:47 AM
Thanks for the pointer Kerrin, I'll have to look into that!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: scc on February 22, 2016, 09:14:44 AM
Thanks for sharing the video Cletus,  I'm going to try that for sure.                 Terry
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on February 28, 2016, 03:33:34 AM
With the Horn Plates shaped, my next task was to attach the bearing blocks and then bolt them to the Firebox Wrapper.

After a quick assessment, it is clear that my carefully drilled bolt holes in the Horn Plates don't line up with the ones drilled in the firebox. :(

So, after some consideration, and a week of mulling it over, I decided that to get the holes aligned correctly, I will need to make sure the two horn plates are aligned, using the shafts, then adjust the holes in the Firebox wrapper as necessary.  This should assure that the shafts all run parallel, and that the Horn Plates are even with the Boiler Shell.

With this process in mind, my first step was to attach the bearing blocks.  I worked hard to be very precise, and to check every step to make sure things were aligned properly.  And my progress was quite slow.  4 hours to attach 3 bearing blocks! :o  I'm sure the final 3 will go somewhat faster, now that I have it kind-of figured out, but I'm just no speed demon when it comes to building!

Here's the process I developed.  I'm showing you pictures from the 3rd bearing block.  To mark the holes for the bearing blocks, I made two transfer punches using some #2 screws by filing the ends to a nice point.  I screwed these into the bearing block so that the pointy tip just poked out, like so:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/014b-HornPlates-1-DSC_1330Sm.jpg)

Then using a nice, accurately sized 1/4" length of rod, I lined up the bearing block with the hole, squared it up, and bopped the top of each screw with a hammer, marking the location for the mounting holes.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/014b-HornPlates-2-DSC_1333Sm.jpg)

Then I went to the mill and drilled the holes where indicated (lining up VERY carefully).
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/014b-HornPlates-3-DSC_1334Sm.jpg)

After drilling both holes, I would countersink the opposite side of the hole.  Again, I was very careful with this - I would actually adjust the position of the CSK a little to line up better with where the bearing hole ACTUALLY was, rather than just where the hole in the sheet metal was. Basically, I used the countersink to fine tune the alignment of the bearing hole.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/014b-HornPlates-4-DSC_1340Sm.jpg)

Here's a shot of one horn plate completed. 
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/014b-HornPlates-5-DSC_1345Sm.jpg)

And the other side.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/014b-HornPlates-6-DSC_1347Sm.jpg)

After completing the other horn plate, I'll use longer 1/4" rods to align the 2 horn plates, and then use that as a template to adjust the Firebox Wrapper holes.

Thanks for watching my tortuously slow build!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Bearcar1 on February 28, 2016, 03:46:49 AM
Still liken it Kim,,,,, keep doin what yer coin..  :ThumbsUp:


BC1
Jim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: mal webber on February 28, 2016, 10:30:26 AM
Nice work Kim all looking very good.

Mal.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 28, 2016, 12:06:09 PM
Very nicely done Kim.  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on February 28, 2016, 12:56:41 PM
It don't matter how long it takes Kim. Looks like your procedure worked very well to me and got the accuracy you were looking for.

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on February 28, 2016, 03:10:54 PM
Thanks Jim, Mal, Zee, and Bill,

I'm sure there's a better/faster way to get things like this aligned.  I just haven't found it yet.  My method just seems a little too fiddly - a little to 'trial and error' based, to be the RIGHT way to do it.  But yes, I'm getting there, and I'm going to count that as success! :)

I really appreciate your encouragement! :)
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Don1966 on February 28, 2016, 03:16:43 PM
It don't matter how long it takes Kim. Looks like your procedure worked very well to me and got the accuracy you were looking for.

Bill
Yet! Totally agree Kim and keep up the good work........... :ThumbsUp:

Don
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on February 28, 2016, 03:23:41 PM
Thanks Don! :)
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: vcutajar on February 28, 2016, 07:21:48 PM
I know the feeling Kim.  It's not the first time that I take two hours just to drill and tap four holes.  Good thing I am not doing it for a living.

Vince
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: fumopuc on February 28, 2016, 08:36:54 PM
Hi Kim, I am with you, sometimes it is better to do it slow than twice.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Dave Otto on February 29, 2016, 01:12:29 AM
Yup; when the risk is high it is better to slow down and do it once rather than having to start over.

Nice work on the Horn Plates and bearings Kim!

Dave
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on February 29, 2016, 06:54:02 AM
Hi Vince, Achim, and Dave,
Thank you for the kind words, and thanks for following along! :)
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on February 29, 2016, 12:05:13 PM
Yup; when the risk is high it is better to slow down and do it once rather than having to start over.

Or as the sign hanging in a shop use to say, "If you don't have time to do it right the first time, how are you ever going to find the time to do it again."   ;)

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on March 07, 2016, 05:52:59 AM
This week for my Saturday shop time, I ended up spending most of the day repairing a desk lamp.  Earlier in the week, the bracket holding the switch and bulb socket to the lamp broke.  Looking at it I figured I could make something that would work just as well.  So I did.

No 'progress' pictures, but here's the finished piece (made from a piece of Aluminum from my scrap bin).
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/014c-HornPlates-1-DSC_1355Sm.jpg)

And here it is, in place.  It holds the switch in place, and holds the bulb socket to the lamp shade.  I'm happy to say it works better than the original part (even before it was broken!)
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/014c-HornPlates-2-DSC_1362Sm.jpg)

Today, however, I did get some time to make a little forward progress on my tractor.

Before attaching the Horn Plates, I needed to make sure things were all aligned and square. I started by making sure that the Firebox Wrapper was the right height, and square with the boiler shell.  I used parallels that were just the right height (1 5/8") as a support for the boiler shell, and slid the Firebox wrapper back and forth across some sandpaper, held on a flat surface:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/014c-HornPlates-3-DSC_1348Sm.jpg)

My next problem was that the two sides of the firebox wrapper weren't parallel with one another.  After lots of fiddling and mulling, here's the process I came up with; I made a spacer that was the correct width and height to fit inside the Firebox wrapper:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/014c-HornPlates-4-DSC_1370Sm.jpg)

Placed it inside the firebox, like so:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/014c-HornPlates-5-DSC_1372Sm.jpg)

Then clamped things together to verify alignment.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/014c-HornPlates-6-DSC_1366Sm.jpg)

With that done, I got some 1/4" bars to align the two Horn Plates, like so:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/014c-HornPlates-7-DSC_1373Sm.jpg)

I then clamped the horn plates into place over the Firebox Wrapper in JUST the right spot.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/014c-HornPlates-8-DSC_1378Sm.jpg)

This is where I should have drilled the bolt hoes in the fire box wrapper.  Instead, I stupidly drilled them earlier (thinking it would be easier when the sheet metal was flat, which is when the book tells you to do it, BTW).  And of course, they don't line up properly now.

So, I finagled up a way to hold these in place on the mill and used a 3/32" 2 flute mill to enlarge the hole in the Firebox Wrapper to match the one in the Horn Plate.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/014c-HornPlates-9-DSC_1381Sm.jpg)

And this is where I had to go in...

I was able to get three holes on one side aligned, with bolts through.  But my fear is that the holes in the Firebox Wrapper will be too big, there will be too much slop, and it will allow the horn plates to get out of alignment.

If that turns out to be the case, my plan will be to go up to the next larger size of bolts - from #4 to #6.  Then I'll use a 9/64" mill to widen the holes.  This should make a very close fit for a #6 bolt. I'll have to get an 9/64" end mill (and some #6 bolts) on order!

Ah, the wonderful learning experiences I'm getting here!  I assumed that if Rudy's instructions said "Drill the holes now", that I'd be OK doing that.  I don't see ANY WAY anyone could make those holes line up if you drilled them as listed in the instructions.  How can you know exactly how the metal will deform during bending?   I'm going to have to be more careful with this going forward.

Thanks,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: scc on March 07, 2016, 08:49:31 AM
Well done Kim, you are doing it properly. I am really enjoying this build. :popcorn:              Terry
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on March 07, 2016, 12:04:32 PM
Great pictures Kim, and taking the time now to get things to your liking will save in the long run. What a great project!!  I am enjoying following your progress immensely!!

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Dave Otto on March 07, 2016, 02:56:38 PM
Hi Kim

Nice work on the tractor; I agree with Bill time spent now getting everything aligned and perfect will pay you back going forward.

Nice save on the lamp too.

Dave
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Don1966 on March 07, 2016, 06:16:44 PM
Looking good Kim and I like the light fixture fix........... :ThumbsUp:

Don
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: fumopuc on March 07, 2016, 08:01:41 PM
Hi Kim, great progress. To fit the rear wheels is not so far away anymore.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on March 07, 2016, 09:26:58 PM
Terry, Bill, Dave, Don and Achim,
Thank you each for your kind comments and encouragement!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 07, 2016, 10:21:41 PM
Excellent progress Kim.

re: light fixture...ain't it wonderful having a shop?
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on March 07, 2016, 11:36:06 PM
Kim, I really like the way you look to make a tool or jig to help you insure success.  I was thinking while reading this that our shop teacher back in high school told us,  " 90% setup and 10% machining equals a 100%"  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp:. Hey,  I have one of those stand mounted illuminated  magnifying lamps that is broken,  do you take commission work  :lolb:

Cletus
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: 10KPete on March 07, 2016, 11:54:55 PM
Old machinist I worked with decades ago used to say that if you didn't have a setup you had nothing. Right on.

Pete
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on March 08, 2016, 03:22:23 AM
Thanks Zee, Eric, and Pete!

Hey,  I have one of those stand mounted illuminated  magnifying lamps that is broken,  do you take commission work  :lolb:
Cletus

You betcha!  Send it on over and we'll get our rework department right on it!  :Lol:
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on March 13, 2016, 10:05:24 PM
Today, I made some nuts & bolts (and yes, I think they are bolts based on the bolt vs. screw thread). 

I decided to go ahead and move up to #6 bolts to attach the Horn Plates.  I also chose to make hex head bolts instead of read made pan head bolts.  Though I don't really know what is prototypical, a hex head bolt just just seems more in keeping with the steam era than a Phillips head.

With this in mind, during the week, I'd ordered some 303 Stainless Steel hex stock.  And luckily, it came in on Thursday! :cartwheel: So I set out to make my bolts!

It wasn't very hard, but since I hadn't really ever done this before, and I needed several of them, it took me some time.

I took a few progress shots to share with you all.
Here's after bringing it down to size and threading 6-32:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/015a-HornPlateScrews-1-DSC_1393Sm.jpg)

Then cutting off the head to the right thickness.  I used the table on the American Model Engineering Supply (http://www.americanmodeleng.com/id41.html) site for guidance on dimensions.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/015a-HornPlateScrews-2-DSC_1389Sm.jpg)

After repeating that process many times, I then flipped each bolt around, faced it off and chamfered the head at ~30o.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/015a-HornPlateScrews-6-DSC_1402Sm.jpg)

For the nuts, I drilled, and tapped a length of the hex stock. Then chamfered one end of the nut just like the bolt heads:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/015a-HornPlateScrews-3-DSC_1398Sm.jpg)

And cut it off to length.  I made the nuts a little thicker than the bolt heads (using the sizes indicated in the chart I referenced above).  As I have seen many other people do, I used something to catch them so that I didn't have to go swarf diving.  I used one of those little tubes that come with a can of WD-40 and held it in the tailstock chuck.  It worked great!
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/015a-HornPlateScrews-4-DSC_1400Sm.jpg)

After cleaning up the inside edge of the nuts a bit, here's what I had to show at the end of my work time:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/015a-HornPlateScrews-5-DSC_1409Sm.jpg)

While not quite up to the high quality of Dave Otto's nuts for sure, I'm pretty pleased, and think they will look much better on my little steam tractor than commercially available pan head screws!

Thanks for looking,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 13, 2016, 10:32:01 PM
9 bolts and 11 nuts.
2 extra nuts.

Nice.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on March 13, 2016, 10:40:27 PM
Gremlins prefer nuts...they're smaller. Nice work though Kim!

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Don1966 on March 13, 2016, 10:48:56 PM
'Nice set of nuts Kim"  :lolb:  and I wonder how a rock tumbler filled with glass beads would do to those nuts. Looking good buddy....... :ThumbsUp:

Don
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: mal webber on March 13, 2016, 10:49:15 PM
Nice work there Kim coming along very nicely.

Mal.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on March 14, 2016, 01:22:10 AM
Thanks Zee, Bill, Don, and Mal,

9 bolts and 11 nuts.
2 extra nuts.
Hmm.... One of the bolts is missing there.  I made 10 bolts, and 12 nuts.  One of the bolts apparently was camera shy and sneaked out of the picture, and one of the nuts was accidentally cut too narrow, so was rejected by the QC department :embarassed:

Gremlins prefer nuts...they're smaller.
My thoughts exactly Bill!

I wonder how a rock tumbler filled with glass beads would do to those nuts.
I think I'll give that a try.  Hopefully they'll clean up nicely :)

Just came in from the shop.  I've got a new exciting update. Hopefully I'll get time to post an official update sometime soon! :)
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Dave Otto on March 14, 2016, 01:54:06 AM
Nice Hardware Kim!

There is a lot of satisfaction being able to say yep; I made all of it, including the nuts and bolts.

Nice work!

Dave
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: 10KPete on March 14, 2016, 02:44:47 AM
Kim, that's really neat that you've now made the fasteners for your model!! Or some of them anyway. The rest to follow!!

There's not a store-bought fastener in the world that can beat those for satisfaction.

Pete
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on March 14, 2016, 03:55:14 AM
Thanks for the kind comments Dave and Pete.

Here's my exciting update from today's shop time.

With my small pile of fresh new fasteners, I used my (also new) 9/64" mill to re-drill out the holes for the #6 bolts.  I used a mill because the holes weren't necessarily going to be drilled in the center of the old hole, and I didn't want to come out with square or any other odd shapes this time around!  So, I used the center cutting end mill and it worked great.
Here I am re-drilling the first side.  This is the last hole on this side, the others already have bolts in them.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/015b-HornPlateScrews-1-DSC_1417Sm.jpg)

And here I am finishing up the other side.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/015b-HornPlateScrews-2-DSC_1423Sm.jpg)

Now for my big question.  Which looks better, or alternately, looks more prototypical?  The left side, with the hex bolt heads showing?
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/015b-HornPlateScrews-3-DSC_1436Sm.jpg)

Or the right side, with the nut showing?
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/015b-HornPlateScrews-4-DSC_1431Sm.jpg)

Now, I realize that this steam tractor isn't modeled after any specific engine.  But it is supposed to be reminiscent of a Case steam tractor.  I've spent time looking at pictures of Case tractors on the internet and it seems this engine just doesn't model anything to that level. So, unless you guys have some real guidance, it seems that it's down to an aesthetic choice.  I'd love to hear your thoughts either way.

And lastly, here's what made me so excited!  :cartwheel: I can now put the rear wheels on and see what it might look like someday!  Pretty cool, eh?!  :cartwheel: Well, at least for me it is!
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/015b-HornPlateScrews-5-DSC_1442Sm.jpg)

Thanks for following along and helping me out with my many problems and questions.
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Jasonb on March 14, 2016, 10:09:30 AM
I don't know if you can get them over there but some of our ME suppliers sell what are either called "threaded rivits" or "unslotted roundheads" . These have a rounded head that looks like a rivit but you can fasten them with a nut on the other side that would look most accurate as the sides were rivited.

Another option that won't show when its painted is to use button head cap screws which is what I have used on my larger engine as they will blend in with the other decorative dummy rivits, there are another 5 to go in but this will give you the idea.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Fowler%20A7/PICT0183.jpg)

The two rings around teh smokebox are all unslotted roundheads

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Fowler%20A7/PICT0257.jpg)

Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: 10KPete on March 14, 2016, 10:26:03 AM
Nuts to the inside!! No self respecting mechanic would put the nuts on the outside. Too untidy!

In that picture it kinda looks like a long-nosed chariot.

Pete
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on March 14, 2016, 03:07:29 PM
Thanks for the input Jason and Pete.

I'll have to give some thought to rounding over the head on the bolts.  That'd make it much more like a carriage bolt, though they usually have a square length just below the head to help keep them from turning when tightened.  I could just take my chances here and just round over the heads.

Any other thoughts from anyone?
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Don1966 on March 14, 2016, 05:52:32 PM
Kim I bet your getting excited to see it starting to come together. The family shot looks great........ :cheers:

Don
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Jasonb on March 14, 2016, 05:54:47 PM
If you are worried about the rounded off bolt turning you could leave a very small amount of teh hex remaining, similar to the nuts in the photo below which are supplied by a maker of traction engine "kits". Or use roundhead setscrews and fill the slot with epoxy before painting.

J
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: 10KPete on March 14, 2016, 05:55:53 PM
Naw, don't round 'em over. Leave the nice hex. Otherwise they'll just look like rivets or something.

Pete
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Jasonb on March 14, 2016, 06:01:33 PM
I thought that was the whole idea as the real thing used rivits and rounded over stays
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: 10KPete on March 14, 2016, 06:10:42 PM
I thought that was the whole idea as the real thing used rivits and rounded over stays

Well pardon me. I have mis-read something somewhere. I thought hex heads were the desired item. If not, then why
make 'em in the first place?? :headscratch:

Pete
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Jasonb on March 14, 2016, 06:31:39 PM
Quote
So, unless you guys have some real guidance, it seems that it's down to an aesthetic choice.  I'd love to hear your thoughts either way.


 ...............or alternately, looks more prototypical?................Kim

Rivits or stays are more prototypical than bolts that is why I was suggesting the best way to get a prototypical look by using an alternative to hex fixings.

It should be bourn in mind that the full size engines did not have separate horn plates, the sides of the boiler firebox were continued up above the water space to give teh two plates that the shaft bearings were fixed to. As modelers we have to do the best we can to make these separate hornplates look like they are part of the boiler that is why it is common practice to use the methods mentioned in my previous posts rather than just nuts and bolts.

J
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: 10KPete on March 14, 2016, 07:36:19 PM
Aahhhh! Thanks for the enlightenment, Jason. I'll have to discover how that end of the machine was fabricated, in full size.

Pete
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Jasonb on March 14, 2016, 08:07:44 PM
Although this is a partable (does not move under its own power) it gives a good idea of how this part of full size engiens is made to give a waterspace around teh sides and over the top of the firebox.

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.414820928588609.94055.360405337363502&type=3

And this one shows how the sides carry on up top support the bearings

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.776888275715204.1073742069.360405337363502&type=3

Lots of other good traction engine construction work in Bartlett's albms

https://www.facebook.com/BartlettEngineering/photos_stream?tab=photos_albums

J
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: 10KPete on March 14, 2016, 08:57:14 PM
Mr. Bartlett certainly has a right proper shed, he does! Reminds me very much of shops I've worked in back when. Oh I miss having proper equipment to fabricate things like that. Too old now....

Thanks Jason, that answered the question. The horn plates are applied to the sides of the boiler at the fire box so they are riveted through into the water leg.

Have you visited Mr. Bartletts' establishment?

Pete
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on March 15, 2016, 06:20:29 AM
Thanks for the kind words Don!

And thanks Jason and Pete for the fascinating interchange.  I found it very educational!  I'll now have to consider the rounded over hex too!

Thanks for the information on how the real traction engines were made Jason. This is exactly the kind of information I was looking for.  Very educational!

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on March 27, 2016, 02:04:11 AM
It's been a couple of weeks since my last update because I haven't had much to show.  But today I got some shop time and was able to finish up the Perch Bracket, and that is what this installment is all about.

The Perch Bracket was cut from a piece of 22GA steel, then filed & sanded square, as I've shown before. 

I marked it up, and put a punch mark where the axle yoke is supposed to go.  I'd recently picked up a step drill from HF in hopes that it would do a better job of drilling the holes in the sheet metal than my previous experience using the twist drills.  So I drilled a 1/8" hole as a place to start, since that was the smallest step on the step drill.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/016a-PerchBracket-01-DSC_1449Sm.jpg)

Oops... missed the mark completely! That's what I get for trying to do it free hand.  So, off to the mill, where a used a 1/4" 2 flute mill to drill the hole in the correct spot.  That worked much better.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/016a-PerchBracket-02-DSC_1453Sm.jpg)

Then off to the brake where I bent one side of the bracket:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/016a-PerchBracket-03-DSC_1455Sm.jpg)

Then the other:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/016a-PerchBracket-04-DSC_1456Sm.jpg)

Unfortunately, I couldn't figure out any way to do the next set of bends with my brake, so I used a hand seamer to make the bend.  This didn't produce quite as crisp of a bend as the brake did, but I was able to clean it up using various methods.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/016a-PerchBracket-05-DSC_1459Sm.jpg)

And here's the Perch Bracket, perched in its new spot, using a 1/4" drill to align the holes for the Axle Fork (the next item on my list).
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/016a-PerchBracket-06-DSC_1460Sm.jpg)

Unfortunately, there are some rivets right under where this bracket is supposed to go.  So my next order of business was to remove those rivets.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/016a-PerchBracket-07-DSC_1461Sm.jpg)

After milling the heads off the offending rivets, I drilled rivet holes in the Perch Bracket.  Then I clamped the Perch Bracket on to the boiler shell and drilled matching rivet holes through the boiler shell.  That first rivet in the bracket isn't really installed, it's just sitting there to help keep the holes aligned while drilling the other two.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/016a-PerchBracket-08-DSC_1469Sm.jpg)

After setting those three rivets in place, I turned the boiler shell around and drilled the holes for the other side.  Again, the two escutcheon pins shown are just to help keep things aligned while drilling.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/016a-PerchBracket-09-DSC_1475Sm.jpg)

And here is the final shot, with the Perch Bracket riveted in place. My rivets don't look anywhere as good as Mal's!  But they are doing their job, so I'm pleased with that  :embarassed:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/016a-PerchBracket-10-DSC_1479Sm.jpg)

Thanks for taking a look,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Dave Otto on March 27, 2016, 02:14:08 AM
Very nice Kim!

In full sized practice the steel plate would most likely had a generous radius in the bends to help with strength; so I think that you did well.

Dave
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: fumopuc on March 27, 2016, 07:04:54 AM
Hi Kim, I like your fabrication work.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on March 27, 2016, 03:20:11 PM
Thanks for the kind comments Dave and Achim.
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: mal webber on March 27, 2016, 04:30:53 PM
Nice work Kim,  my rivets had a formed head on to start with and I still managed to mess a few up, I think your doing a great job on your engine, won't be long and it will be standing on its own wheels  :ThumbsUp:

Mal.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Roger B on April 01, 2016, 08:25:45 AM
Coming along nicely  :praise2:  :praise2: I'm still following along in the background  :wine1:
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on April 01, 2016, 02:10:02 PM
Very nice Kim. The radius on the bends looks totally prototypical to me so I wouldn't worry about that at all. More important that things look symmetrical and you certainly achieved that!! Well done.

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on April 02, 2016, 05:32:03 AM
Thanks for the support Roger and Bill!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on April 10, 2016, 02:36:20 AM
Even though I didn't post an update last week, I actually made some progress. I just didn't finish anything.  I'll fill you in as my sordid story unfolds...

It was a nice sunny Saturday, when I started work on the Front Axle Fork.  I chucked up a length of 5/8" 12L14 in the collet chuck and went to work.

I started by turning a 7/8" length to 1/4". This part will fit through the perch bracket I just made.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/017a-FrontAxleFork-01-DSC_1483Sm.jpg)

Then I slid the steel out about an inch and turned down a section to 9/16" (I only had 5/8" stock to work from).
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/017a-FrontAxleFork-02-DSC_1485Sm.jpg)

And cut it off at the appropriate length.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/017a-FrontAxleFork-3-DSC_1486Sm.jpg)

Before I moved to the mill, I held it in a 1/4" collet and drilled a 1/4" hole in the center.  I used this to help center things on the mill.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/017a-FrontAxleFork-04-DSC_1488Sm.jpg)

And here I am, centering the part on the mill using that hole, and a 1/4" rod in the mill!  I was careful to Square the collet block so that the part was truly perpendicular.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/017a-FrontAxleFork-05-DSC_1492Sm.jpg)

With things Squared and centered, I used a 5/16" ball end mill to cut the forks.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/017a-FrontAxleFork-06-DSC_1497Sm.jpg)

Laying the collet block horizontal, I shaved 3/32" off one side, flipped it over, and did the same to the other side.  This left the forks 3/8" wide, as specified in Rudy's drawings.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/017a-FrontAxleFork-07-DSC_1506Sm.jpg)

Here's where production on this stopped.  I needed a 3-56 tap to finish this up, and I didn't have one.  Happily, the UPS man brought me one during the week, so I decided to finish it up today.

Unfortunately, in my euphoria to have this completed, I drilled all the way through the fork with a #39, the size for the 3-56" clearance hole.   Oops.  One side needs to be threaded!  :wallbang:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/017a-FrontAxleFork-08-DSC_1539Sm.jpg)

So, I repeated all the operations today, to make another Front Axle Fork.

The only thing I did different this time around, is that rather than use the ball end mill, I used a standard 5/16" end mill and milled it on its side, rather than standing up.  Somehow, this hadn't occurred to me before.  This seemed more stable and a lot easier to setup - it was a lot easier to guarantee that the collet was horizontal, vs. Vertical, as I had to before.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/017a-FrontAxleFork-09-DSC_1542Sm.jpg)

After that fun little diversion, I CAREFULLY drilled one side for tapping, and one side for clearance, tapped the hole, and I was done!
This picture shows the completed Front Axle Fork (on the right), in addition to the 3-56 bolt I made to hold the Front Axle (on the left), and the Front Axle Fork Collar (middle).
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/017a-FrontAxleFork-10-DSC_1544Sm.jpg)

I didn't take any pictures of turning the bolt or the collar as they were both quite simple exercises.

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on April 10, 2016, 02:43:51 AM
Now for part two of my two week update:

Next I built the Front Axle Fork Reinforcement.  This is a diagonal brace that provides additional support to the Front Axle Fork.

The Front Axle Fork Reinforcement is designated to be made from brass.  The first element was a simple turning exercise - just a 1/4" collar to fit around the fork.  I didn't take any pictures of turning this. But here, I show where I have just milled a 3/32" hole in it at ~10 degree angle.  I'm holding the angle block in place to demonstrate how I set the angle.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/018a-FrontAxleForkReinforcement-01-DSC_1508Sm.jpg)

I then soldered a 3/32" brass rod to the collar.  This is the pre-soldering shot, with the flux and everything prepared for the operation.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/018a-FrontAxleForkReinforcement-02-DSC_1510Sm.jpg)

And here's the post solder shot.  A little too much solder, but I cleaned that up.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/018a-FrontAxleForkReinforcement-02a-DSC_1512Sm.jpg)

To make the other end, that screws to the boiler out casing, I flattened the end of the 3/32" brass rod.  I annealed it a few times while beating it into shape.  I also made a stack of spacer blocks the same height as my perch bracket so I could get the exact right angles on the reinforcement piece.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/018a-FrontAxleForkReinforcement-03-DSC_1514Sm.jpg)

Then I drilled a hole in the flattened section.  Oops...
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/018a-FrontAxleForkReinforcement-04-DSC_1517Sm.jpg)

The drill bit grabbed while drilling the hole.  And I think my beating on the brass rod made it very brittle which didn't help it at all.  :hammerbash:
So I came up with plan B.

I used a 3/16" end mill to clean up the end of the rod.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/018a-FrontAxleForkReinforcement-05-DSC_1521Sm.jpg)

Then made a 3/16" brass washer  to fit, and soldered it in place.  Again, here's the pre-solder picture, all preped and in place:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/018a-FrontAxleForkReinforcement-06-DSC_1526Sm.jpg)

And the post-solder. Again, too much solder.  But I cleaned it up. 
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/018a-FrontAxleForkReinforcement-06a-DSC_1527Sm.jpg)

And here's the completed reinforcement bracket, all cleaned up.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/018a-FrontAxleForkReinforcement-07-DSC_1530Sm.jpg)

Now, to install it.  I got the Boiler Shell unit mounted on the mill, and used a piece of 1/4" rod to hold the Front Axle Fork Reinforcement in place over the perch bracket.  Using this, I located the correct spot to drill the hole for the 2-56 screw.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/018a-FrontAxleForkReinforcement-08-DSC_1533Sm.jpg)

And then tapped the hole.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/018a-FrontAxleForkReinforcement-09-DSC_1534Sm.jpg)

With that, all the parts for holding the front axle are complete!  I tossed in the front axle here, even though I made that a few months back.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/018a-FrontAxleForkReinforcement-10-DSC_1545Sm.jpg)

Here's a shot from the front (upside down) after putting all these pieces in place.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/018a-FrontAxleForkReinforcement-11-DSC_1546Sm.jpg)

And from the side:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/018a-FrontAxleForkReinforcement-12-DSC_1548Sm.jpg)

And now, the family shot!  All wheels attached!  It's almost looking like a tractor!  :cartwheel:  Although my daughter continues to tell me it looks like a cannon to her... ::)
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/018a-FrontAxleForkReinforcement-13-DSC_1551Sm.jpg)

OK, one more shot cause I'm so excited to see it starting to look like something :whoohoo:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/018a-FrontAxleForkReinforcement-14-DSC_1553Sm.jpg)

Thanks for looking in,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 10, 2016, 03:13:23 AM
And now, the family shot!  All wheels attached!  It's almost looking like a tractor!  :cartwheel:  Although my daughter continues to tell me it looks like a cannon to her... ::)

 :lolb: A philistine.

Great post. Fantastic family shot.

I can almost feel your excitement. Cool.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: joe d on April 10, 2016, 03:22:45 AM
Great milestone Kim.  She's looking good!

Joe
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: 10KPete on April 10, 2016, 04:10:28 AM
Excellent! Really good progress and now it does look like a tractor. You can even roll it around and go 'pst pst pst chuff'.

 :cheers:

Pete
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: fumopuc on April 10, 2016, 06:10:32 AM
Hi Kim, a great family shot. Good to see the progress. It is always a nice feeling  to archieve this kind of milestones.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on April 10, 2016, 06:43:43 AM
Thank you Zee, Joe, Pete, and Achim for the kind comments! :)

Although my daughter continues to tell me it looks like a cannon to her... ::)

 :lolb: A philistine.

Great post. Fantastic family shot.

I can almost feel your excitement. Cool.
Thanks Zee!
She my yongest, and I'm quite sure its an honest observation from her.  Nothing intended to disparage :)

Excellent! Really good progress and now it does look like a tractor. You can even roll it around and go 'pst pst pst chuff'.

 :cheers:

Pete
Yes, I've done some of that this afternoon! And so has my daughter :)
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Jo on April 10, 2016, 07:59:50 AM
 8) Well done Kim,

It does feel good getting them up on their own wheels.

Jo
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: mal webber on April 10, 2016, 10:31:26 AM
Nice work Kim its looking really good, what part are you thinking of making for it next?

Mal.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on April 10, 2016, 02:39:17 PM
Thanks for the excellent update Kim. It really is looking every bit like a tractor. Well done, and still fun to watch too!!!
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on April 10, 2016, 03:56:17 PM
Thanks Jo, Mal, and Bill!

I'm pretty much following along with the description that Rudy wrote for building his engine. And the next thing up will be more plate work on the platform in the rear.  I think that (and eventually a smoke stack) will move it out of the cannon category :)

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Dave Otto on April 10, 2016, 03:58:10 PM
Hi Kim,

Nicely done on the front steering pieces; and nice save on the strut, I think it might even look a little better after the save.

The family shot is wonderful! All of your hard work and persistence defiantly shows in this shot.


Dave
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on April 10, 2016, 04:39:21 PM
Thanks Dave!

... and nice save on the strut, I think it might even look a little better after the save.

Yes, you are absolutely right!  I thought flattening the rod would be the best way, but I definitely agree!  The "Plan B" looks much better than my original attempt :)

Thanks,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Don1966 on April 10, 2016, 04:42:35 PM
Kim that is just awesome, to finally see it on it's on wheels. I can feel your excitement buddy because I am just as excited as you are. ........ :cartwheel:

 :cheers:

Don
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Roger B on April 10, 2016, 04:58:27 PM
Looks great  :praise2:  :praise2: A major milestone passed  :ThumbsUp:  :wine1:
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on April 10, 2016, 11:31:26 PM
Thank you for the support Don and Roger!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on April 10, 2016, 11:54:00 PM
I've often heard the difference between a good machinist and a great one is the way they cover their mistakes  :shrug:  Looks like you're figuring it out nicely Kim.

Cletus
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 11, 2016, 12:44:46 AM
I've often heard the difference between a good machinist and a great one is the way they cover their mistakes

 :pinkelephant: I'm a great machinist!

But if so...there's a bunch here greater than great.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on April 11, 2016, 05:42:05 AM
Thanks Eric!

I've often heard the difference between a good machinist and a great one is the way they cover their mistakes

 :pinkelephant: I'm a great machinist!

But if so...there's a bunch here greater than great.
I'm certainly aspiring to greatness!  :ROFL:
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Dave Otto on May 21, 2016, 09:45:24 PM
Hey Kim!

Any progress on your tractor?

Dave
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on May 22, 2016, 02:20:11 AM
Hi Dave,
Thanks for checking in with me.  This has been a very busy time a work for me.  That, with several weekends of family obligations (all happy, of course :)) have conspired to keep me out of the shop.

I've made a little progress on the sheet metal, but not much. It'll probably be some time before I can post meaningful progress.  But I haven't stopped.  Life just gets in the way of fun sometimes :)

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: mal webber on May 24, 2016, 02:07:54 AM
Kim, same summer time is kidz time not shed time for me so i'll have to get the kidz some overalls  :Lol:
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on May 29, 2016, 01:59:56 AM
I hear you Mal, and isn't that the truth! It’s been almost two months since my last meaningful update! How time flies when life gets in the way!

I’ve had a few days in the shop over those 7 weeks and I’ll try to summarize here.  It’s been all sheet metal work for a while.

I started by making the Platform Underframes.  There are two of these, a left, and a right.  I cut two pieces of sheet metal, and double sticky taped them together.  After getting the blanks squared up and to size, I marked out the shape.  You can (barely) see my “XXX” pattern which indicates what section is to be removed.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/019a-SheetMetalWork-1-DSC_1555.JPG)

Then to the band saw, where I cut out the waste section.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/019a-SheetMetalWork-2-DSC_1559.JPG)
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/019a-SheetMetalWork-3-DSC_1560.JPG)

There are a few holes to be drilled here, for mounting to the horn plates and the platform sides, but I chose to wait to make those holes till I get things all lined up.  Here’s the left and right Platform Underframes, ready to be bent into shape.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/019a-SheetMetalWork-4-DSC_1561.JPG)

And this is about where they will go. But before I bend them up, I decided to make the rest of the platform sheet metal parts so that I can better visualize how they will all come together, and (hopefully) get them assembled square with each other.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/019a-SheetMetalWork-5-DSC_1565.JPG)

Here is a shot of me drilling the rivet holes in the Platform itself (this will be riveted to the Platform Underframes, after they are bent.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/019a-SheetMetalWork-6-DSC_1582.JPG)
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/019a-SheetMetalWork-7-DSC_1585.JPG)

Next, I cut out and shaped the Fuel Bunker Rear – this will go along the back of the platform.  Here I drilled the major mounting holes – my theory on what to drill when the sheet is flat, vs. what to drill after bending, is to drill the outer most holes when things are flat. Then, after all parts are bent, and being fitted in place, I will drill the inside holes for mounting, so that they (hopefully) all end up in the right place, and square with the rest of the assembly.  This goes for the bolt holes, as well as rivet holes.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/019a-SheetMetalWork-8-DSC_1588.JPG)

The next two pieces that I made (today :)) were the Platform Sides (lower left) and the Fuel Bunker Sides (lower right).  The upper left is the Fuel Bunker Rear, and the upper right is the Platform Underframes.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/019a-SheetMetalWork-9-DSC_1595.JPG)

I’ve got two more parts to make before I start bending and assembling: the Fuel Bunker Insides, and the Firebox Backsheet.

These parts aren’t too exciting right now, but I think it will really start to unfold when I get them bent and assembled.

Thanks for following along with my excessively slow build. I doubt it will be moving much faster for some time.  There’s a lot of stuff going on at the home front, and as we all know, that takes precedent! :)
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on May 29, 2016, 02:13:13 AM
Its still nice to see an update Kim. That represents a lot of work too!!  Not everything can be exciting, just have to keep your eye on the prize and in this case the whole project is just that....looking great to me!!!   :ThumbsUp:

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Don1966 on May 29, 2016, 02:17:28 AM
It's always great to see an update Kim no matter how long between post. Progress is progress buddy no matter how small. Just keep pinging at it and it will get done.......... :ThumbsUp:

Don
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on May 29, 2016, 02:30:45 AM
Thanks Bill and Don,
I Appreciate the encouragement.  I can tell you it was a fun filled Zen-Workshop morning for me today!  The cares of the world just drifted away as I puttered along thinking about the steps I needed to do to form and shape the metal. :)

And I think I'll get some time in the shop tomorrow.  So we'll see what I can do with that!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: fumopuc on May 29, 2016, 07:05:06 AM
Hi Kim, good to see  you back at it. Nice progress, even if it is taken shape slowly. I do know this feeling very well.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on May 30, 2016, 10:51:04 PM
Thanks Achim!

Yesterday I’d said I needed to make a few more sheet metal parts, but I decided to do just one more before I started putting some of them together.  So, I did.  And here are the Fuel Bunker Inside pieces:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/020a-Platform-01-DSC_1598.JPG)

With that, I was ready to start assembly.
This did not go as quickly as I thought.  I spent several hours working out a method to hold the pieces in place AND being able to clamp it onto the mill to make the holes.  I tried various clamps at different angles, like this attempt:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/020a-Platform-02-DSC_1602.JPG)
But the problem kept being that I couldn’t make it fit on the mill. One of the problems with having small equipment.

When I finally got there, I ended up using double-sided sticky tape to hold the Platform Underframes in place, and then cut a piece of 1”x1/4” HRS to use for a clamp. This worked great, and maintained registration while I drilled the mounting holes.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/020a-Platform-03-DSC_1603.JPG)

Then I bent the Platform Underframes, and bolted them in place.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/020a-Platform-04-DSC_1614.JPG)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/020a-Platform-05-DSC_1615.JPG)

With the Platform height set by the Platform Underframe pieces, I decided to bend one part of the Fuel Bunker Rear sheet; the 1/8” tab that provides support to the platform.
The problem here was that using my break, I couldn’t bend the middle part without bending the outside edges.  So I came up with using the Sherline mill vise.  This worked quite well!

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/020a-Platform-06-DSC_1618.JPG)

That is, until I went to take it out of the vise, and I found that I’d bent the sheet metal over the clamping screw. :(  Took me a while to get out of that one without damaging my part!
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/020a-Platform-07-DSC_1620.JPG)

Here’s where the Fuel Bunker Rear will go eventually.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/020a-Platform-08-DSC_1621.JPG)

But, before I can do that, I needed to Rivet the platform to the Platform Underframe.  Again, I spent an inordinate amount of time trying to devise a method to hold everything square while I drilled the rivet holes through the frames.
Here’s what I came up with:  A piece of wood, carefully cut to the exact correct size, carefully squared up, then used more of that double-sticky tape to hold all the pieces in reference to each other until they could be clamped on the mill.

Here’s the top of my setup:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/020a-Platform-09-DSC_1623.JPG)

And the bottom (just for fun):
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/020a-Platform-10-DSC_1624.JPG)

Then I clamped it on the mill table.  You can just see the toe of the clamp sticking out from behind the Irwin clamps. The two Irwin pistol-grip clamps are just to help the sticky tape hold the frame pieces in place during drilling.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/020a-Platform-11-DSC_1628.JPG)

After drilling all the rivet holes, I then proceeded to rivet the platform to the frames.  This went fairly quickly (well, it took me about 90 minutes to do 36 rivets (only having to re-do one of them!).
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/020a-Platform-12-DSC_1638.JPG)

And even the underside doesn’t look too bad.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/020a-Platform-13-DSC_1640.JPG)

Then I mounted it on the horn plates.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/020a-Platform-14-DSC_1643.JPG)

That’s my progress for the long weekend.  It’s been a fun run, but I think it will be a bit before I get back out to the shop.

Thanks for looking in,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: joe d on May 30, 2016, 11:14:25 PM
Some excellent progress there Kim.   :ThumbsUp:

Joe
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Dave Otto on May 30, 2016, 11:54:34 PM
Nice work Kim! good to see an update on your tractor. Is that Portland sunshine leaving spots on you horn plates? :lolb:

Dave
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Don1966 on May 31, 2016, 12:10:24 AM
Nice work Kim woth some intuit setups and they seem to get the job done. Good to see more progress buddy.......... :ThumbsUp:

Don
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on May 31, 2016, 05:40:00 AM
Hi Joe, Dave, and Don,
Thanks for the kind comments!

Is that Portland sunshine leaving spots on you horn plates? :lolb:

Yeah, guess it is :)

I've cleaned those up some, but they keep growing spots! I've decided I'm going to have to paint the tractor to keep it from rusting like that! This plate steel seems to rust very quickly.

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: fumopuc on May 31, 2016, 08:16:57 AM
Hi Joe, Dave, and Don,
Thanks for the kind comments!

Is that Portland sunshine leaving spots on you horn plates? :lolb:

Yeah, guess it is :)

I've cleaned those up some, but they keep growing spots! I've decided I'm going to have to paint the tractor to keep it from rusting like that! This plate steel seems to rust very quickly.

Kim

I could imagine it is more the skin acid from Kim fingers.
By the way great progress.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on May 31, 2016, 01:51:20 PM
Kim, its looking great and you had a very productive weekend for sure!!  Just a quick question. It look like that bunker rear plate has a tab that inserts into the platform pieces, but how will that be done now that the platform pieces are riveted together? Hoping you get more shop time soon, this is a fun build to follow and I know will be an amazing model in the end.

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: mal webber on June 01, 2016, 01:50:32 AM
Nice metal work Kim, I always look forward to build progress on this project  :ThumbsUp:

Mal.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Roger B on June 06, 2016, 11:45:57 AM
Some good problem solving and very nice metal work  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp:  :wine1:
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on June 06, 2016, 08:55:34 PM
Thanks Achim, Bill, Mal and Roger!
Sorry for the long delay. Somehow I missed your guys responses!  I really do appreciate all the kind comments.

I could imagine it is more the skin acid from Kim fingers.
Very possibly, but it doesn't seem to be consistent with where/what I touch.  And I think of my skin as more 'oily' than acidic.  Maybe not?

Just a quick question. It look like that bunker rear plate has a tab that inserts into the platform pieces, but how will that be done now that the platform pieces are riveted together?
That row of rivets on the rear bunker are dummys.  And the tab is short enough that it doesn't reach the dummy rivets on the platform.  The Rear Bunker sheet will be riveted to the fuel bunker pieces, but it will be attached with a few bolts.  Rudy has designed this so that it comes apart in a few sections for easier work and assembly.  Probably a very good idea for a rank beginner like me!

Thanks everyone,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on June 07, 2016, 12:20:06 AM
Thanks for the explanation Kim. Hope you get some shop time and more updates soon. Great project!!

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on June 11, 2016, 11:23:04 PM
I got some shop time today, but I’d told a friend I’d help him out and I spent most of my time doing that. So, no progress on my Steam Tractor today. Maybe tomorrow.

But I thought I’d share a few pictures of my mornings work anyway.

What happened is that my friend found some nice chunks of aluminum that were already carved into nice little 3x5" tables. He wanted a whole bunch of holes drilled in these little tables.  He does his own reloads, and I believe the idea is to use these trays to help hold the shells during the reloading process.

Here I'm indicating them in on the mill so they rows of holes will be parallel with the edge.  Note there are two pieces, bolted back to back here, one on top of the other.  (The pieces came with 1/4”-20 holes tapped in each corner, so I used those to hold them in line with each other, that way I could drill once for two parts.)
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/ProjectForAFriend-3-DSC_1647.JPG)

I spotted the holes and then went to drilling them.  The DRO was wonderful for this!
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/ProjectForAFriend-1-DSC_1655.JPG)

Here are the completed parts.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/ProjectForAFriend-2-DSC_1658.JPG)

Hope these work well for him!

Now, hopefully I’ll get some time for my tractor tomorrow! :)
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on June 11, 2016, 11:35:33 PM
Nice result Kim.  I hope he appreciates your efforts.

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on June 11, 2016, 11:47:34 PM
Thanks Bill!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Don1966 on June 12, 2016, 12:46:06 AM
Nice results Kim and it's shop time even if it wasn't on the tractor....... :ThumbsUp:

Don
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: mal webber on June 12, 2016, 08:40:21 PM
Very nicely done Kim.

Mal
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on June 13, 2016, 12:51:36 AM
Thanks Don & Mal,
Yes, any shop time is good time, I couldn't agree more.
Though it looks like shop time for this weekend has evaporated.  Maybe I'll get a shot next weekend?  I tend to not know my weekends activities till we get there.  Probably better that way!    ;)

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on July 04, 2016, 10:44:47 PM
Finally got some more time in the shop this holiday weekend.  After getting the platform base in place, I’m moving on to closing in the sides.  A few episodes back, I cut the sheet metal for this, and now it’s time to shape it.

So, taking one of the platform side blanks, I went to bending.  Unfortunately, I couldn’t use my break since it only PART of the length was going to be bent.  So, I created a make shift box break using some strips of steel and a seamer.  It worked tolerably well.  Here’s the first stage of forming the platform sides.  You can see the little piece of sheet metal (just in front of the lower left corner of the seamer) that prevented me from using the regular break.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/020b-Platform-01-DSC_1661.JPG)

The next step needed a 90 degree bend, but had other clearance issues, so I used a different method here.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/020b-Platform-02-DSC_1666.JPG)

And here’s a shot after the second bend.  Not too bad.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/020b-Platform-03-DSC_1668.JPG)

After that I bent a few other parts, but those were very straight forward.  Here’s all the sheet metal for the bulk of the platform sides & fuel bunkers, all bent to shape.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/020b-Platform-04-DSC_1669.JPG)

After this, I needed to drill matching rivet holes to connect the platform sides to the fuel bunker sides.  To maintain alignment during drilling & setup, I used double sided sticky tape to hold the parts together.  Here you can see the pieces held together with the tape:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/020b-Platform-05-DSC_1672.JPG)

Then I clamped them in place on the mill and went to drilling the rivet holes.  Except for one problem.  I couldn’t get the bit in close enough to line up the last few holes! The collet will be hitting the sheet metal if I go over any furteher!
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/020b-Platform-06-DSC_1674.JPG)

What to do, what to do?  As is often the case in times like this, I fretted & paced and tried things, but no matter what, I couldn’t figure out how to get in there.  Then I hit me!  I can make a drill bit extender!  So, I did.  Here it is, just a simple 3” length of 3/16” steel rod with a #55 hold drilled in the end & the #55 bit Loctited in place:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/020b-Platform-07-DSC_1676.JPG)

And sure enough, that did the trick.  All done.  So easy once you come up with a solution! :)
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/020b-Platform-08-DSC_1680.JPG)

Here’s one side, riveted together:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/020b-Platform-09-DSC_1684.JPG)

Next, I needed to connect the Fuel Bunker Rear to each of the sides (or vice versa).  Again, I used double sticky tape to hold this in place while I drilled matching rivet holes. Unfortunately, as I add each pieces, it gets harder to find ways to hold it.   In this case, the Fuel Bunker Rear is 6.5” long, and I had to drill into the end of it.  It just about maxed out my headroom on my Taig.  But with some careful clamping, I was able to get it done – just barely:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/020b-Platform-10-DSC_1686.JPG)
It’s hard to see, but there’s a long piece of sheet metal sticking down the back of that piece of wood there.

And here’s a close up:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/020b-Platform-11-DSC_1691.JPG)
The first time around I clamped the part with the holes to drill in the front, thinking it would be easier.  Unfortunately, the other pieces of sheet metal stuck out so far it hit the mill column.  So I had to do it ‘backwards’.  And while more difficult, it actually worked!

I drilled both ends of the Rear Fuel Bunker sheet before trying to rivet.

And that is where I left off for today.

Thanks for stopping by,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on July 04, 2016, 11:04:13 PM
Hi Kim, glad to see you got some shop time! I have been missing your progress on this great model. Tolerably looks pretty darn good to me! Happy 4th and here's to more shop time.

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Don1966 on July 04, 2016, 11:31:32 PM
Kim, like Bill it all looks good to me and good to see you get shop time in...... :ThumbsUp:


Don
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Dave Otto on July 04, 2016, 11:48:04 PM
The sheet metal work looks great Kim!

Good to see progress! :ThumbsUp:

Dave
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on July 05, 2016, 12:00:08 AM
Hi Bill, Don and Dave!  Thanks for looking in and for the kind words.
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on July 06, 2016, 02:48:51 AM
Having assembled the platform sides, it’s now time to attach the rear plate (the plans call it the Fuel Bunker Rear).

But before I do that, I decided I should attach the extra goodies onto that.  Figured it would be easier than after the whole assembly is riveted together.

So I made a few more sheet metal pieces: the Drawbar and the Rear Step.

The Drawbar is some kind of pin-coupler so the tractor can tow things, I believe.  Here’s the Drawbar, laid out on a scrap of sheet metal:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/020c-Platform-01-DSC_1696.JPG)

After cutting it to shape, and filing it a bit, I double sticky taped it to a piece of aluminum and drilled the holes.  I hoped that the sticky tape would be sufficient to hold against the drilling forces, and it was.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/020c-Platform-02-DSC_1698.JPG)

With the holes drilled, I filed the part to shape:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/020c-Platform-03-DSC_1700.JPG)

Then bent it.  And there we have a Drawbar (apparently).
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/020c-Platform-04-DSC_1702.JPG)

The rear step is a simple piece.  The biggest thing here was to pre-drill the rivet holes before it was bent into shape (using double sticky tape again):
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/020c-Platform-05-DSC_1704.JPG)

I used the same setup to drill rivet holes to attach the Drawbar:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/020c-Platform-06-DSC_1706.JPG)

Here’s the Fuel Bunker Rear with the extra pieces, just before I rivet them all in place.  Note the row of dummy rivets that were added along the center edge there.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/020c-Platform-07-DSC_1707.JPG)

And the after shot, with the step and drawbar rivted.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/020c-Platform-08-DSC_1711.JPG)

Next I drilled the bolt holes that will hold the whole side & fuel bunker assembly in place.  This is another step I decided I needed to do before the whole assembly was riveted together.  This shot shows the whole setup:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/020c-Platform-09-DSC_1715.JPG)

And this one is a close up of making the hole.  I did this once on each side.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/020c-Platform-10-DSC_1716.JPG)

Next up will be actually riveting the rear panel in place (what I started to do way back at the beginning of this post!)

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on July 06, 2016, 11:40:13 AM
Kim, that's some mighty fine sheet metal work. The new drill bits must be working good; haven't heard you mention breaking one in a long time. I'm still following along.

Cletus
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on July 06, 2016, 05:28:17 PM
Thanks Eric!
Yes, the new drill bits are great!  Its been some time since I've broken any bits, that's for sure.  These US made, cobalt bits, are stronger and way sharper than those other cheap bits I was using. They cut the metal like nobody's business!

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Don1966 on July 06, 2016, 05:31:10 PM
Kim looks like your getting the hang of sheet metal work buddy. It all looks great from here....... :ThumbsUp:


Don
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: fumopuc on July 06, 2016, 08:10:42 PM
Hi Kim, some very interesting fabrikation work. It is fun to follow your progress.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on July 09, 2016, 09:44:15 PM
Hi Don and Achim, thanks for your kind support!

As promised last time, first thing I did today was to attach the rear panel to the sides. 
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/020d-Platform-1-DSC_1719.JPG)

To complete the attachment of this sub unit to the platform base, I needed to add some brackets.  I cut some ½” aluminum angle to use for brackets, positioned them using double-sided-sticky tape, and drilled rivet holes.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/020d-Platform-2-DSC_1722.JPG)

Here’s the platform assembly, with the brackets riveted in place.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/020d-Platform-3-DSC_1725.JPG)

Then I reassembled the platform and sides, and finally drilled and tapped for 2-56 bolts to hold the back of the sides in place, like this:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/020d-Platform-4-DSC_1730.JPG)

And here’s a couple of shots of the completed platform & sides:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/020d-Platform-5-DSC_1728.JPG)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/020d-Platform-6-DSC_1727.JPG)

Just a few more sheet metal pieces, then I’ll be off on my next sub-adventure; cutting gears for the drive train! I’m excited about that!  I’ve downloaded Don’s spreadsheet and am starting to ramp on what I need to know for that endeavor.  It’ll be a while yet, but it's never too early to prepare!

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on July 10, 2016, 12:06:45 AM
More great progress Kim! The sheet metal work is all coming together perfectly.

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Johnmcc69 on July 10, 2016, 03:26:50 AM
That's some really fantastic work Kim! Your setups are very effective.

 John
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on July 10, 2016, 04:52:03 AM
Thank you Bill and John, I appreciate the encouraging words :)
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: mal webber on July 10, 2016, 10:45:01 AM
Hi Kim, just caught up with your progress looking really nice there ,nice metal working.

Mal
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on July 11, 2016, 06:13:57 AM
Thanks Mal!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Roger B on July 11, 2016, 09:36:33 AM
Very nice sheet metal work  :praise2:  :praise2:
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: gbritnell on July 11, 2016, 11:59:58 AM
Beautiful metal work Kim. When I made mine I didn't add all the rivets. What a difference that makes.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on July 11, 2016, 04:18:29 PM
Thanks Roger and George,
So much of this build is new skills for me.  The sheet metal fab, the riveting, etc.  It's far from perfect but getting better!  And I keep remembering that this is my practice engine, and the NEXT one will be even better!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Don1966 on July 11, 2016, 09:10:51 PM
Just checking in Kim from out of town and your metal work is outstanding buddy. Those rivets sure set it off............ :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on July 16, 2016, 11:08:52 PM
Thanks for following along with me Don!


Today I had a short amount of time in the shop. I was able to finish up the Fuel Bunker Insides and start working on the Motion Support Plate.

Several weeks (months?) back I had cut & shaped the sheet metal for the Fuel Bunker Insides.  So all I had to do was to form them and drill the mounting hole.

Here’s a series of shots showing the forming of the Fuel Bunker Insides.  We start with the part set up in in the cheap-o brake, prior to bending.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/020e-Platform-01-DSC_1733.JPG)

Here we are post-bend.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/020e-Platform-02-DSC_1735.JPG)

The one in back is completed, the one in front is going to be up next!
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/020e-Platform-03-DSC_1737.JPG)

Then over to the mill to drill and tap 2-56 holes for attaching.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/020e-Platform-04-DSC_1739.JPG)

Here they are after some clean-up, ready to be added to the assembly.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/020e-Platform-05-DSC_1741.JPG)

And finally, attached to the insides of the fuel bunkers!  The cutouts you see on the inside are for some of the piping that will be added later.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/020e-Platform-06-DSC_1745.JPG)


With that finished, I started on the Motion Support Plate; a little channel bracket that is used to hold the far end of the cross head guides.  It will be riveted to the top of the horn plates.

First I marked it up:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/020e-Platform-07-DSC_1748.JPG)

Then cut it out and file/sand to shape.  Then forming.  I chose to form the channel before I did the cut-out, thinking that the bend would be more uniform that way.  Here I’ve just bent the second side of the channel. Bending these little 1/8” lips isn’t as easy as you’d think. It’s hard to bend such a such short little lip.  Also, you can see, I had to use a length of ½” square 1018 steel to form the second bend – the official break is amost 2” wide, and I’ve only got 7/8” between the two bends in the channel.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/020e-Platform-08-DSC_1751.JPG)

After forming the channel, I nibbled out one end and shaped it with files.  The drawings call for those ½” extensions to be flat, with no support.  But I have picked up from other builds that the cross head guide is poorly supported with the default design.  So I chose to add some angled pieces there to provide some additional support for the cross head guide.  Hopefully this will help address that problem.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/020e-Platform-09-DSC_1752.JPG)

This is where the Motion Support Plate will be attached.  I didn’t have time to do that today, so that’ll be where I pick up next time.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/020e-Platform-10-DSC_1756.JPG)

Thanks for looking in!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: metalmad on July 17, 2016, 12:09:55 AM
Hi Kim
Looking Really good there Buddy
Pete
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: crueby on July 17, 2016, 12:13:12 AM
Great progress!    :popcorn:
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on July 17, 2016, 12:45:54 AM
Looks like a lot of progress to me Kim, and nicely done too!!


Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Dave Otto on July 17, 2016, 01:38:14 AM
Great progress Kim!

The latest parts look very nice.

Dave
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: 10KPete on July 17, 2016, 01:54:36 AM
Following with great interest, Kim. I'm very interested in TEs, though I likely won't get a chance to build one.

On those short leg bends; we used to bend 'em long then mill them down.....

Pete
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 17, 2016, 03:04:58 AM
Wow. I've missed a lot. Sorry to have been out of the loop.

Nice progress and excellent work. Rivets look great!
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on July 17, 2016, 05:42:44 AM
Pete, Chris, Bill, Dave, Pete, Zee, thanks for stopping by to have a look, and thanks for the kind words.

On those short leg bends; we used to bend 'em long then mill them down.....
That's a great idea!  I'll have to try that next time I have a little shore edge to bend like that.

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: fumopuc on July 17, 2016, 10:03:26 AM
Hi Kim great progress over all. When may I start to order my next fabrication job at your shop ?
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on July 17, 2016, 03:31:40 PM
Thanks Achim!

Well, you can order whenever you want.  My shop is kinda like Hotel California - You can order anytime you like, but it may never leave!  :lolb:
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: zeeprogrammer on July 18, 2016, 12:55:53 AM
Well, you can order whenever you want.  My shop is kinda like Hotel California - You can order anytime you like, but it may never leave!  :lolb:

 :lolb: :lolb:
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on July 18, 2016, 01:33:54 AM
Dang it Kim, the sheet metal work is looking great, but, now I'm gonna be singing that all night   Mirrors on the ceiling, pink champagne on ice, we are all just business here, dang it man :lolb: :lolb:

Cletus
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on July 24, 2016, 01:52:49 AM
Now that you’ve all got the Eagles out of your head, it’s time for my next installment :)

I’ve been looking forward to making the gears, and now I’m ready to go!  With anything new like this, I spend a lot of time reading and trying to figure out how I’m going to do it.  This was no different.  I downloaded Don’s Gear Cutting spreadsheet (thanks, Don, it's incredibly helpful! :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:) and re-read other people’s threads where they’ve made gears, and watched several YouTube videos.

Finally, I went out to the shop to actually do something!  But I didn’t have a lot of time left.  So, I made the 3/8” mandrel that I’m going to use to hold the cutters.

I drew up a crude plan and went to it. I made it from 5/8” 12L14. It was all fairly simple turning, but I took a few pictures to share, just so you have proof that I actually did something :)

Turning down to 3/8”.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021a-Gears-2-DSC_1758.JPG)

Cutting 3/8”-24 threads.  That was fun!  ;D
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021a-Gears-3-DSC_1762.JPG)

I cut it off on the band saw, turned it around and cut a 3/8” shaft for holding it in my mill (the largest Collet that will fit in the Taig is 3/8”). I spared you the pics of this.

Then I took another piece of the 5/8” rod and drilled & reamed a 3/8” hole, and cut it off at 3/8” to use for a spacer.  Here I’m cutting it off the main stock.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021a-Gears-4-DSC_1765.JPG)

Completed family shot of the mandrel:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021a-Gears-5-DSC_1769.JPG)

Assembled:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021a-Gears-6-DSC_1771.JPG)

Next I’ll make some blanks and the button tool.

Not much, but its progress!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on July 24, 2016, 01:21:04 PM
Nice work on the mandrel Kim. I am looking forward to following along on the gear making too.

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Don1966 on July 24, 2016, 03:24:49 PM
Nice job on the mandrel Kim and I am also looking forward to seeing the gears cut.

Don
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on July 24, 2016, 04:05:29 PM
Thanks Bill and Don,
I'm excited to get on with making the gears too, but shop time is very limited these days, so it will be rather slow progress (as is usual for me).
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: mal webber on July 24, 2016, 05:09:32 PM
Nice work there Kim, looking forward to seeing some gear cutting as well.

Mal
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on July 31, 2016, 02:04:22 AM
Hi Mal, thanks for looking in!

On to the button tool!

I decided that for my first attempt I was going to make one of the single button tools, rather than the 2 button tool.  Just seemed like a good way to start.

I cut a length of ½” square 1018 and clamped it in the mill vice at 5 degrees, and made the relief cut for the button.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021b-Gears-1-DSC_1773.JPG)

This button tool is for a cutter to make a 16 tooth gear (DP 48, 20 degree pressure angle).  The button for this is surprisingly small – the diameter is 0.100”.  So I had to narrow the front of the tool down from ½” to just under 0.100”.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021b-Gears-2-DSC_1777.JPG)

Then I drilled and reamed a 1/16” hole for the button stem.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021b-Gears-3-DSC_1778.JPG)

After that, I made the button using W1 tool steel.  Here I’ve cut the 1/16” rod for the button, brought the button down to 0.100”, and am just ready to cut it off.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021b-Gears-4-DSC_1782.JPG)

After cutting it off, I mounted it a 1/16” 5C collet block, and cut the relief for the tool at 10 degrees.  This will give a 5 degree actual top relief (the first 5 degrees just makes up for the 5 degree angle in the holder).
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021b-Gears-5-DSC_1784.JPG)

And here’s the family shot:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021b-Gears-6-DSC_1790.JPG)

And assembled:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021b-Gears-7-DSC_1792.JPG)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021b-Gears-8-DSC_1794.JPG)

I still need to heat treat the button, but I’m just about ready to try it out!

Thanks for following along!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on July 31, 2016, 02:12:39 AM
With my update posted, I now have a couple of button tool related questions for all you knowledgeable people.

First Question:
It seems that commercial gear cutters come in Numbers 1 through 8, and each cut a range of gear sizes for a given DP & PA.  So I was figuring that, rather than make one cutter for each gear I need, I would make one corresponding to the cutter number I needed, and use the appropriate one for each gear. That way I make fewer button tools, and fewer gear cutters.

But, for any one specific cutter number, should I make it for the low end gear size, the high end gear size, or the middle gear size?  For example, cutter number 7 covers 14-16 tooth gears.  Should I make that one as a 14 tooth, 16 tooth, or 15 tooth cutter (since that is the middle)?  How are the commercial ones done?


Second Question:
As I was working on the tool, I noticed that as you get to larger numbers of teeth, the diameter of the buttons used for forming the cutter gets larger.  This makes sense, since a Rack should have straight edges, as I understand it.

My issue: The Cutter Number 1 tool, which is for “135-Rack”, shows a very large diameter button.  In fact, the diameter of the button is larger than the distance between the centers of the two buttons.  That means the two buttons will collide.  And when that happens, the shape of the cutter starts to look wrong to me.  Also, the specified infeed is DEEPER than the place where the two buttons meet.  Which doesn’t seem right either.

I drew a quick sketch to hopefully clarify the point that is hanging me up.  On the left side is a sort-of scale representation of a button tool for a 14 tooth cutter.  It looks as I would expect.  On the right is a sketch representing a button tool for a 135 tooth cutter.  You can see that the infeed is behind where the buttons intersect, and the cutter formed by it will have a pointed “V” shape.  This just looks wrong to me.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021b-Gears-ButtonToolPic.JPG)

What am I doing wrong here?  Or maybe the tool is right and I’m thinking of it incorrectly.  But I would expect there to be some flat space on the end of the 135 shape, not for it to come to a point.

Looking forward to your thoughts on this,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on August 04, 2016, 03:34:12 AM
I had a few minutes Sunday afternoon and thought I’d heat treat the button.  That was a fairly short job.

I setup my station and suspended the tinny little button from a magnet.  Actually, I suspended it from a scrap piece of steel that I hung from the magnet.  My thinking is that I don’t want to get the magnets too hot and risk damaging or cracking them. The 1” piece of steel allowed me to keep the flame away from the magnet.

I learned the magnet trick from DaveO – suspend the metal to be hardened from a magnet, dangling over your water.  When it gets hot enough that it is no longer magnetic, it will drop from the magnet into the water.  Works well!
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021b-Gears-9-DSC_1795.JPG)

Close up of the button just before heating.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021b-Gears-10-DSC_1798.JPG)

No pictures of the heating process, butit went off without a hitch. After quenching, I cleaned it up and was ready to temper it.

So back I go to my torch station.  I didn’t need the magnet setup this time, so I went to take it down.  I grabbed onto the piece of scrap steel to pull it off the magnet and suddenly my hand jerked away. it was about that time I realized that my fingers hurt.  Wow!  They hurt a LOT!  That steel was still REALLY HOT!  OUCH.  Needless to say, I was done in the shop for that day. I went in and held my fingers under cold water and ice for a while.

Here are my ouchy fingers.  I burned my thumb a bit too, but mostly the inside of those two fingers got it.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021b-Gears-11-DSC_1800.JPG)

Moral of the story?  Remember that the stuff sitting in your heat treating area can still be hot, even if it doesn’t look like it!  Check before you touch!  Dumb, but lesson learned.

Kim

P.S  If anyone has any thoughts on the questions in my previous post (about button tool/gear cutters), I’d love to hear.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Hugh Currin on August 04, 2016, 04:04:00 AM
Kim:

Could it have been electromagnetic rather than just heat? There was a magnet involved. Maybe the magnet held the heat in? OK, or maybe it was just too hot. Slick way to heat treat small parts, I'd have never though of it. I would, however, have also burned my fingers!

Nice work. Some day soon I'll have to try cutting some gears.

So, no insight on the button tool cutting tool but I agree. A tool to cut a rack should have a flat end. So I suspect all should have a flat tip. Your 135-rack has no flat on the tip. I have a book, Gears and Gear Cutting by Ivan Law, which gives the dimensions for a button tool. Those dimensions give a small flat at the end of the tool for a 20 deg pressure angle. Let me know if those number would help you. Other than a quick drawing I haven't checked further.

Thanks.

Hugh
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on August 04, 2016, 06:34:40 AM
Hi Hugh,
Thanks for taking a look at my question on the button tool.

I have the same book by Ivan Law, which is what prompted my first question.  Because the numbers in his table seem to correspond to a number mid way in the range for the large gear teeth, but in the smaller ones its at the top of the range, or even above the range (based on Don's SS, and other calculations I've found on the web, which all agree).

On my second question; my drawing wasn't a very accurate rendering. And I see now, after some careful calculations, that I over estimated the infeed on my drawing.  :facepalm: If I decrease the infeed to the specified distance, it stops BEFORE the button diameters join.  So you are clearly right Hugh, there is a small flat on the tip of the 135-rack tool.

So, question number two is resolved as operator error (not surprisingly :)).

Thanks!
Kim

 
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on August 04, 2016, 11:16:23 AM
Kim, kudos on making the cutters, it's something I haven't tried yet. And, I suspect that you have the ability to become a good welder: there is no telling how many times I've finished a nice smooth weld and rubbed a finger across it; know full well that it was still hot :facepalm2:  :Doh:. Just something about it :shrug: Keep it coming.

Cletus
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Don1966 on August 04, 2016, 05:23:07 PM
Hi Kim sorry i didn't asnwer your question earlier. I have been out of town and not having a way to get on the forum. You can see my attachments below and how the different teeth count changes the profile of the cutter. The close up shows the top of the teeth getting bigger for smaller teeth count. So it is almost best to make the cutter for the different teeth count, but for our use using the mid calculated cutter will do if you plan on make more gears with different teeth count.What the calculations do is calculate the correct ratio in the whole gear arrangement. It may not be exact to match with factory gears but for our use it's close enough. I hope this answers your question.
I decided to do a mesh of the teeth and the model 3 shows that the top of the teeth does not matter much as long as they mesh at the pitch circle diameter and all three mesh at that diameter no matter what the gear tooth count. Look at model 1 and you will see that the pitch circle diameter of all three cutters are just about in mess. So my conclusion is it don't matter which one you use as long as it falls in the cutter range. It's close enough for our use.

Don
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on August 04, 2016, 08:05:43 PM
Thanks Eric, appreciate the sympathy :)

Don, thank you for the reply, and no need to apologize! I appreciate any help I can get!  And those pictures help a lot! It does seem that the difference is more significant than I though.  I'll have to look at how many different tooth counts I need and decided on the number of cutters I can get away with.  Or maybe just make one for each tooth count as your suggest.  I'm sure I'll be redoing things a few times anyway till I get the hang of it, so it may not be much more work :)

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on August 21, 2016, 02:46:59 AM
With the button tool ready, next up was to make my gear cutter blank. For this, I used 1” round W-1 tool steel. I was going to feed it through my 1” collet, but turns out, 1” material won’t ‘feed through’ the 1" collet.  The threads on the inside are just a mite too tall to allow a 1” piece of stock through.

So instead, I cut off a thin slice with the horizontal bandsaw (probably easier than using a cut-off tool anyway) and then set it up with my little Taig 3-jaw chuck to face off the slice.  I then flipped it around and brought it to the correct thickness.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021d-Gears-01-DSC_1804.JPG)

Next I drilled and reamed a 3/8” hole to fit on the arbor I just made (“just”, being about a month ago ).
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021d-Gears-02-DSC_1808.JPG)

Here’s my gear cutter blank:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021d-Gears-03-DSC_1809.JPG)

Then I put it on the 3/8” arbor, mounted it in the lathe, and cleaned up the circumference to make sure it was true.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021d-Gears-04-DSC_1810.JPG)

Here’s where the fun begins!  I used the button tool to cut one side of the cutter, going in the exact, specified depth.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021d-Gears-05-DSC_1812.JPG)

Then moved to the other side, the exact specified amount, and made a second cut; again going in the exact specified depth. (http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021d-Gears-06-DSC_1815.JPG)

Forming the cutter with a single button meant I had to make two cuts, but I only had to make one button. And with one button, I can re-use the button tool holder.  For a two button tool, I can’t share the holder because the distance between the buttons will be different for each size button.  I’m not sure I see much advantage in making the two button tool.  Maybe others can tell me why that would be more desirable?

With the tooth form created in the tool blank, I put the arbor in the square collet block and took it to the mill to cut the teeth.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021d-Gears-07-DSC_1821.JPG)

As you can see, I cut four teeth.  I know others cut 8 or more teeth, but that seemed harder, and I wasn’t sure there would be a lot of gain for a minimal use tool, and it would be more teeth to relieve. So I went with four.

And here I’ve just filed some relief on the back of each tooth, trying ever-so-hard to avoid the fronts of the teeth!  I didn’t want to damage those!
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021d-Gears-08-DSC_1823.JPG)

With the cutter shape completed, I heat treated and tempered it (no pics, but no burnt fingers this time either! :embarassed:).  And here’s the finished gear cutter:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021d-Gears-09-DSC_1827.JPG)

Now it gets even MORE fun!  Mounting the gear cutter back in the arbor – being careful to put the cutter in so the business end hit first – I setup the RT and went to work on a scrap piece of 3/8” brass from the junk bin.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021d-Gears-10-DSC_1829.JPG)

Stupid me, I forgot to tighten the collet, so the gear blank slid. :facepalm2:  It didn’t really become noticeable till I’d gotten ¾ of the way around and realized that it looked all wonky:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021d-Gears-10a-DSC_1856.JPG)

So I stopped that test run, and tried again with another bit of scrap brass.  I carefully tightened the collet and set to work on this one.  I was feeling pretty pleased about it till I took it out and looked at it end on.  The one on the right is the first one – the teeth look tolerable endwise, but they were a little wonky along the length.  The one on the left, my 2nd try, the teeth are all pointing in a strange direction.  I must have goofed up the Z-axis when I was changing blanks.  I don’t know why I didn’t lock the Z-axis down, but I didn’t.  I clearly should have!
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021d-Gears-11-DSC_1833.JPG)

With that minor fiasco, I called it a day and went in.  This brings us up to the end of LAST week’s work.  It was clearly time to go in and get my mind on other things for a while.

A week later...

After thinking about all my gear making problems for a week, I went back out to the shop today to try again.  This time, I decided to go for it and try the real gears.  So I cut a longer piece of brass to use, and drilled a support hole on the far end this time.  I also spent more time squaring up the RT. That took an inordinate amount of time because the first piece of rod I was using was bent.  When I got a straight piece, it went much better!  :insane:

Here we’ve just finished cutting 16 theeth, all around the gear blank.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021d-Gears-12-DSC_1840.JPG)

Following the tooth cutting, I went back to the lathe, drilled and reamed a ¼” hole for the drive shaft, and cut off the outer 1/8” or so (since that portion only had partial teeth).
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021d-Gears-13-DSC_1843.JPG)

And then parted off two ¼” lengths for my drive gears.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021d-Gears-14-DSC_1845.JPG)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021d-Gears-15-DSC_1848.JPG)

After a little clean up, this is how they look.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021d-Gears-16-DSC_1850.JPG)

Not too bad for my first set of gears  :D.  Now I’m trying to figure out how to mount these puppies. A set screw won’t have enough meat to bite into, and it would mess up the gear teeth anyway.  Maybe I have to solder it to the shaft.  We’ll work on that next.

By this time, it was too stinky hot out in my garage to continue working.  We’re having a heat wave up here in the great northwest, and I'm not built for heat!  So, I called it a day and went in.

Thanks for stopping by!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: 10KPete on August 21, 2016, 05:09:00 AM
An eventful journey with a great ending, Kim! Those gears sure don't have any hub left. Solder or Loctite will maybe hold 'em ???

Always watching  :popcorn:

I did shop time in 1 hour increments today, with the temp hitting around 85 I was die'n!

You folks in the hot part of the world may be laughing but us up here in the PNW with Scandinavian blood are way above our comfort zone. I don't put on another shirt 'til it drops to about 55. But I can only take off so many before the neighbors start complaining... :o :Lol:

Pete
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on August 21, 2016, 06:43:16 AM
You understand my heat predicament exactly, Pete!  It hit 99F in Hillsboro today! And it was in the low 80's in my shop.  Its not air conditioned, but the house is.  Usually, I can keep it in the mid 70's well into the afternoon, but it had been so hot the days before, it never really cooled down inside my garage.  Yeah, I'm a heat weenie, its true. But like Pete, I'm just not built for the heat!  :Mad: :'( (That's sweat! not tears!)

On the gears, I was re-reading Rudy's explanations (back in the air-conditioned comfort of the house) and I think I should have made the hole in the gears only 1/8", instead of 1/4".  And apparently I will be soldering the gear to a hub/spacer.  but the spacer is going to have a 1/4" axle hole, so not sure if this will be any better or not.  I'll have to cogitate on that.  I don't always find Rudy's explanations very straight forward. Once I figure it out, I can see what he meant, but its not easy to tease out his meaning unless I already understand what he's doing.

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: fumopuc on August 21, 2016, 06:52:19 AM
Hi Kim very good progress with the gear cutting and an excellent result. Something I should  attack also in the near future. Until today gear cutting is a kind of black box for me.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: scc on August 21, 2016, 09:47:20 AM
Well done Kim,     I have only looked at 2 threads so far today.  Your's cutting tiny gears and Andrew (jadge) cutting huge ones.  This sure is a wonderful forum!!                Terry
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Don1966 on August 21, 2016, 01:53:18 PM
Hi Kim, awesome results buddy and the mishaps are the learning part because I think we all have them. You are now on your way to gear cutting and a joyful journey doings it.
Using a single button only takes more time to cut the gear. As long as the dimension are cut correctly you are doing great and yes you should be able to use the same holder to make more cutters. When you make the a different gear check to see how well they mess. I know your a happy camper now that you cut your first gear because I know I was. Congrats my friend......... :ThumbsUp:

Don
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Flyboy Jim on August 21, 2016, 03:02:59 PM
The gear cutter came out great Kim!  :ThumbsUp: You did a nice job of documenting the process.

I also came away with a better understanding of how to hold a thin part, like the cutter, using top jaws in the lathe chuck.

It's definitely nice to see our temperature cool down some. I'm fortunate to have a window air conditioner in my shop room, located out in the hanger, that keeps it at 72, so I HAD to spend my afternoons out there in order to stay cool.  :naughty:

Jim

Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on August 21, 2016, 04:21:25 PM
Thanks for stopping by and looking in everyone, in spite of the heat! :)  Jim its supposed to be a lot cooler today, only the mid 80's (still HOT in my book!), unfortunately, I'll be occupied with family events.  But such is life!

Yes, I couldn't agree more Terry, this is a wonderful forum!

Thanks for all your help and encouragement in cutting my first gears here Don.  I appreciate it greatly, and am making big use of your spreadsheet too!

Achim, you definitely should give gear cutting a try.  I'm not finding it as difficult as I'd feared.  Yes, there's a lot involved, but if I take it one step at a time (and one learning mistake at a time :)) its no different than any other machining task.  And I'm leaning a lot about gears, and what all those terms mean.  Its amazing how much more they mean to me now (Pitch Diameter, Pressure Angle, Diametral pitch, etc.)

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on August 21, 2016, 05:17:03 PM
Great documentation and a great result too Kim. The gears look wonderful !! Nicely done  :praise2:

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Dave Otto on August 21, 2016, 08:07:58 PM
Hi Kim

I enjoyed seeing your progress on the gears and gear tooling; nice work!

Dave
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on August 22, 2016, 12:38:57 AM
Thanks Bill and Dave for checking in, I appreciate it!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on August 30, 2016, 05:17:34 AM
Hi everybody,
Made some progress this weekend. I made a 1/4" mandrel to hold the gears while cutting them, and then went into production on gear tooth cutter blanks.  Nothing new or novel, so I considered just giving this short update. But, since I know this is a skeptical crowd, and nothing is real unless photo-documented, here are a few shots of this weekend’s work:

Here are the pieces of the gear mandrel:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021e-Gears-1-DSC_1857.JPG)

Assembled:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021e-Gears-2-DSC_1858.JPG)

And Seven gear cutter blanks, along with my first 'test' cutter:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021e-Gears-3-DSC_1861.JPG)

Next I’ll make a button, and shape the cutter for the largest gear (120 tooth, 48 DP, 20 degree PA).

I’ll be doing gears for at least another month or more now, so don’t be surprised   :D
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Don1966 on August 30, 2016, 07:56:13 PM
Well Kim all I can say is looks like your gearing up......... :lolb:
Cool buddy enjoy it..... :ThumbsUp:

Don
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on August 31, 2016, 05:50:54 AM
Thanks Don!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: fumopuc on August 31, 2016, 07:37:22 PM
Hi geared man, looks great.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on September 05, 2016, 05:23:10 AM
Thanks Achim!

Another weekend working on the gears  :)

For my next gear, I decided to move to the large bull gears.  They are 48 DP, 120 tooth gears, with a PCD of 2.5” (20 degree PA).  Using Don’s Handy Dandy Gear Spreadsheet, I calculated the size of the button I needed, and went to work.

Not a lot of pics of this, since it’s just turning. This one was 0.855” in diameter!  Much larger than the last.  So when I went to cut the relief on it, I decided to do it a different way. Since I’m doing single button, I will be using each side of the button. So I cut a relief on each side, about where I’ll be doing the work. After some figuring, I came up with about where I wanted to cut the reliefs. And here's the button, after the first side was cut:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021f-Gears-01-DSC_1862.JPG)

For the second side, I turned it in the collet, just eyeballing it.  I figure its close enough.  And here are the two relief angles cut:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021f-Gears-02-DSC_1864.JPG)

Then I went through the heat treating process.  I also made a larger hole in the other side of my button tool holder for these larger buttons.  This side has a 3/16” pin.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021f-Gears-03-DSC_1865.JPG)

My latest button tool assembled:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021f-Gears-04-DSC_1868.JPG)

Now to the lathe with a fresh gear cutter blank in place.  As I was setting up for the cuts, I hit my first snag of the day.  The button is so big, I can’t move it in the required infeed distance without hitting the mandrel. :(
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021f-Gears-05-DSC_1871.JPG)

To work around this, I decided to take off the end of the button, since that part really isn’t needed for the cut. Off to the grinder to take off a little more than a quarter inch of the end of the button. This worked great!
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021f-Gears-06-DSC_1873.JPG)

Or, it WOULD have, if I hadn’t made my NEXT stupid move.  I messed up on the infeed  calculations and ended up going in WAY too far. For one thing, I have to double the infeed, since my DRO reads out in diameter, not radius. But the real problem was I messed up when I subtracted off the part of the button I’d ground off.  It was just bad math. As simple as that.  :Doh:

So, I poped another blank on, did my math right, and out came a much better tooth form!
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021f-Gears-07-DSC_1877.JPG)

I went through the process of cutting the teeth, reliving them, then heat treating.  Oh yeah!  And I remembered to stamp this one BEFORE heat treating it! (pretty impressive, right?)
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021f-Gears-08-DSC_1881.JPG)

Now, with the gear cutter complete, its off to make the gear blanks.  These are going to be 1/8” thick brass, just bit over 2.5” in diameter.  So, I’m making them from 1/8”x3” brass bar stock.  First I cut some chunks of brass:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021f-Gears-09-DSC_1882.JPG)

Then I drilled & reamed center holes for the 2 blanks.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021f-Gears-10-DSC_1884.JPG)

And fit them both up on the1/4” gear mandrel, and turned them to round on the lathe, like so: (http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021f-Gears-11-DSC_1885.JPG)

My last move for the day was to get the mandrel and blanks setup on the mill to cut the teeth (an extraordinarily lengthy process for me  :embarassed:)
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021f-Gears-12-DSC_1889.JPG)

And here’s the list of stops that I have to make on the RT to cut the all the teeth!
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021f-Gears-13-DSC_1897.JPG)

Tomorrow, I’ll cut those gears! :)
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Bertie_Bassett on September 05, 2016, 01:19:42 PM
looking good there

thats a lot of cuts to be making, hope you dont get distracted and make a slip up.

at least they are nice whole numbers so any mistakes should be easy to spot before the tooth is cut
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on September 05, 2016, 02:15:32 PM
Very nice write up Kim. Looking forward to seeing the finished gears.  :cartwheel:

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: fumopuc on September 05, 2016, 07:09:58 PM
Hi Kim,  120 cuts for 120 teeth, thats a lot. First I have been at bit irritated by the amonunt, but after checking the imperial
dimension of the 48 pitch with a pitch center diameter of 63,5 mm and the pictures with the brass disks in Front of the 4" RT it seems to be logical again
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on September 05, 2016, 10:50:46 PM
Thanks Bertie, Bill, and Achim!

Yes, I was a little worried about maintaining focus for 120 cuts. But it worked out OK in the end  :insane:

Achim, I’m glad you were checking up on me!  I’m new to this gear cutting, as is quite evident the many twists and turns in my lengthy tale here  :embarassed:

First cut – so far so good…
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021g-Gears-01-DSC_1899.JPG)

But a few cuts in, and I’m not so sure.  The teeth are not looking right.  I’m no expert, but they looked way too skinny to me!
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021g-Gears-02-DSC_1901.JPG)

So, I got my carefully calibrated 16 tooth 48 DP gear that I made first, and gave it a test.  Yup, those teeth are terrible!
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021g-Gears-03-DSC_1902.JPG)

After fretting a bit, I went back over my calculations for making the gear cutter.  I re-measured everything and sure enough, I was off in my numbers. At least what I wrote down.  Not sure how I got those numbers. Anyway, I re-measured multiple times, with different devices, and they all came out the same.  So I re-did my calculations, and it was clear that I hadn’t gone in far enough for the infeed.  Which would explain why the teeth are turning out so skinny – the gear cutter is too wide.

Rather than start all over again with another cutter, I thought I’d try to anneal my current one, and see if I could correct it.  So, that is what I set out to do.  To anneal, I used the same magnet trick, but WITOUT the bucket of water underneath. :)
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021g-Gears-04-DSC_1908.JPG)

Then I put it back on the mandrel in the lathe, lined up the tool again, and gave it another shot.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021g-Gears-05-DSC_1912.JPG)

After that, I hardened it (note that I remembered to place the water back UNDER the magnet for the heat treating :)).
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021g-Gears-06-DSC_1913.JPG)

Set it back up in the mill, and cut a few new teeth, on what had by then become, my test gear.  You can see that the upper 10 teeth took anemic and skinny.  The lower 10 teeth look much better!
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021g-Gears-07-DSC_1918.JPG)

So, I made 2 more blanks. This time, I did the bulk of the rounding on the mill – this was MUCH nicer than the interrupted cut on the lathe!
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021g-Gears-08-DSC_1921.JPG)

After turning them to sized on the lathe, I put the blanks back on the mill, lined up everything ever-so-carefully, and went at it again.  Here I am at the half way mark:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021g-Gears-09-DSC_1923.JPG)

Here it is all done.  This took me longer than watching a feature length Disney movie, and it was almost as interesting!
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021g-Gears-10-DSC_1925.JPG)

After a little cleanup, here are the bull gears, and the two 16 tooth pinions:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021g-Gears-11-DSC_1933.JPG)

Not fast, but very satisfying!

I’ve got an 80 tooth, a 66 tooth and a few other gears to go!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on September 05, 2016, 11:21:02 PM
Sorry about the miscalculation Kim but those final gears sure look great to me. That must be very satisfying  and rightly so!!

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: 10KPete on September 05, 2016, 11:34:51 PM
It may be the camera angle, Kim, but those gear teeth look more like saw teeth in that they seem to be 'tilted' in one direction.
As if the cutter wasn't on center line.

This is an interesting adventure and I'm following right along!   :popcorn:

 :cheers:

Pete
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on September 06, 2016, 02:10:19 AM
Thanks Bill!  Yes, very satisfying :)

It may be the camera angle, Kim, but those gear teeth look more like saw teeth in that they seem to be 'tilted' in one direction.
As if the cutter wasn't on center line.
Yes, you're right there, Pete.  It's a little inconsistent around the gear.  The camera angle causes some of the angled look, but not all of it.  Some of the teeth are spot on, and some of them are off a bit. I think there are multiple factors here - one is a small amount of asymmetry in the gear cutting tool - I'm getting better at these, but the large button was very hard to line up accurately. Also, there is some run-out with my RT.  The closest I could get it was about +/- 3 thou, and that causes some of the 'saw-tooth' shape too. I'll see how it works together as I move forward. It isn't perfect, but it's better than any gear I've ever made before :).  And each one will get better still.  If it causes me problems, I'll do it again and call this one practice.

Thank you for the comments and the input!  If there are other things that are contributing to this, I'd love to hear that too!

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: 10KPete on September 06, 2016, 02:59:53 AM
You're way ahead of me, Kim. I've never made a gear from scratch so it's very educational watching you, and others, learn this process. Neat stuff....

Pete
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: mal webber on September 06, 2016, 01:45:10 PM
Hi Kim, just catching up with your build, very interesting on the way you went about your gears making your own cutters as Pete said very educational. :ThumbsUp:

Mal.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Don1966 on September 06, 2016, 07:45:02 PM
Kim for being your first gears you have achieve good results even with the mishap. Mishaps happen when we are learning. They will get much better as you progress in your venture. You have taken the time to read and prepare yourself. The key here my friend is trying and succeeding no matter how many tries, this is what you have done. If you don't, you would always be on the sideline watching others progress. You will enjoy making your own now that you have tried. Bravo my friend for your accomplishment....... :praise2:

Don
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Jasonb on September 06, 2016, 08:03:08 PM
Kim, I wonder if the cutter is a bit blunt or getting bluntand bending the tooth above it into the previously cut space, edge looks a bit dull in this pic. This would be more likely to give inconsistant teeth than setup or cutter geometry

(http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd64/kimsbricks/RK%20Steam%20Tractor/021g-Gears/10-DSC_1925.jpg)
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Don1966 on September 06, 2016, 08:52:35 PM
I believe Jason is correct I hadn't noticed it. The brass should cut clean and at a high speed.

Don
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on September 07, 2016, 03:28:58 AM
Thanks Pete, Mal, Don & Jason!  I do appreciate the encouragement and the suggestions!

Jason, that's a very interesting idea.  It should be easy to test, but I'm not sure how to sharpen the cutter.  Its just tiny, and anything I do, I fear, will only make it worse!  I tried running a diamond stone over the cutting surfaces, but I just don't think I can make it better free-hand.  I'll have to figure out some way to jig something up to sharpen.

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Don1966 on September 07, 2016, 05:17:24 AM
Kim looking at the cutter in the picture, the cutting edge looks rounded over where it should be flat.

Don
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on September 26, 2016, 12:05:38 AM
Hi Don, thanks for the input.  I think you and Jason are right, and I’ve tried to address this, as  you’ll see below…

Also, it seems that the site was down for most of yesterday. I wrote this update but was unable to upload it till today.  Thanks to whoever got the site back up and running again!

-----
It’s been a few weeks since I’ve posted an update, mainly because I don’t have much progress to show.  I’ve run into several complications, most of them being self-inflicted.

I decided it was silly to go with the big gears first, so I moved to the smaller ones, and am currently aiming at the 32 tooth gear.

My first set back was this: I struggled with one of my gear cutter blanks.  It turned poorly – kept grabbing and tearing.  It just turned really bad.  This is W-1 tool steel, and I’ve never had any problem with it before. I don’t have a clue what was going on.  I tried annealing it and thought that would help, but it didn’t. I was just pushing through with it, but then, my button tool broke, like so:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021h-Gears-1-DSC_1943.JPG)

With that, I scrapped that button, decided to make one with a 1/8” pin (as opposed to the 1/16”).  So I made a new tool, and a new button.  Heat treated it and here it is, ready to go:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021h-Gears-2-DSC_1946.JPG)

That whole episode cost last weekend.  This weekend I used a new cutter blank with the new tool and it worked dramatically better.  I’m thinking that I just didn’t anneal the blank well, otherwise it should have worked fine.  And I don’t know why I needed to anneal it in the first place.  Can Tool steel work harden?

Anyway, I very carefully created my 32 tooth, 48 DP gear cutter.  I made this one with much more attention to the spacing than I did the others.  I was careful with them, but I was that much MORE careful this time around.  And I think it helped.

Another thing that probably helped was that I sharpened the cutting face to remove that somewhat rounded edge.  I did it using my HH Advanced Grinder Rest, like so:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021h-Gears-4-DSC_1934.JPG)

Then I made a blank for the 32 tooth gear (0.708” dia) and gave it a spin.  No pictures, since it looks just like all the others.   But… as I was getting to the last few teeth, I started to realize that I was running out of space on the gear blank!  The teeth wouldn’t all fit.  And I found that I hadn’t tightened the collet holding the gear blank.  :facepalm:  I clearly remember reading someone having this issue a week or two ago, and thinking to myself “I’ve done that before!  That’s why I check my collets CAREFULY every time before I start a cut.”   :facepalm2: :Doh: Guess I’m not as careful as I thought, and now I’ve re-learned that lesson!  (probably not for the last time).  Anyway, my 32 tooth gear came out at 31.5 teeth.  I went ahead and cut the last ½ tooth twice so that it was REALLY noticeable.  Because it’s not even a useful 31 tooth gear – it would likely have very uneven tooth spacing.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021h-Gears-3-DSC_1950.JPG)
But at least the teeth are coming out with a better profile.  I’ll keep working on getting them even better!

OK, so still all the gears to go. Someday, I’ll make a keeper and start making forward progress.  Till then, I guess it’s just more practice gears!

Thanks,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on September 26, 2016, 12:35:11 AM
It's still progress Kim. Maybe frustrating at times but still progress. I am learning a lot from your posts too!!

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: 10KPete on September 26, 2016, 02:39:03 AM
Paying attention to the detail on the cutter made a huge difference. It's very plain to see! That cutter is no bulldozing the gear material now.

You've got it on the run now!!

Pete
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on September 26, 2016, 05:42:33 AM
Thanks Bill and Pete!
I'm getting there!  But as I keep telling my wife, what's the fun if it works the first time?  That means I'm not really learning anything new, right?  (and I keep telling myself that too :))
I'll whip these puppies into shape before too long!  :Lol:
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: 10KPete on September 26, 2016, 07:57:17 AM
Well Kim, don't bang your head against the wall too much :wallbang:
'cause you'll get a headache :hammerbash:
and also go bald.  :old:

Pete
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Don1966 on September 27, 2016, 12:10:48 AM
Kim don't beat yourself up buddy, it's all in the learning. Your making headway even though you have mishaps because your teaching yourself. The last gear looks a whole lot better just a slip of the collet. The buttons have to be annealed because they will snap just like the one you did, so anneal it well. The one thing I want to point out is that you are trying and that's a plus for you. You will not regret your efforts.

Don
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on September 27, 2016, 03:42:34 AM
Thanks Pete and Don,
I really do appreciate the encouragement :D

I'm really not feeling that beaten down about it.  As you said Don, I'm seeing a lot of improvement in my gears, and I'm confident I'll get usable gears.  I mean, look how far I've come?  Last year at this time I was learning to do rivets and having a time with my soldering.  Following that I did a bunch of sheet metal work, all new to me.  And now I'm doing gears!  I mean, how exciting is that?  :)  All these new things were the motivation for me to take on this project in the first place (That, and the fact that it's so cool!)  And I'm not sorry I tackled it in the slightest.

Clearly, I'm not an expert at any of these areas. But I'm having fun, learning a lot, and getting better - thanks in large part to your help, and everyone's help on this wonderful forum.

Thank you!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Dave Sohlstrom on September 27, 2016, 04:17:37 AM
Kim

Are you a member of the Portland Model Engineers club. They meet in various locations on the second Sat of the month.

Dave
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: joe d on September 27, 2016, 03:02:06 PM
Kim

Things are looking good!

If you ever figure out a use for it, I've got a 79 & 1/2 tooth gear left over from my Minnie....

Joe
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on September 27, 2016, 07:18:26 PM
Kim, I haven't said much, but,  I have been  :popcorn:,  :DrinkPint:, and following along.  I've only cut one set of gears and one test gear,  which all seemed to work out well.  I attribute this to the dividing plates I added to my RT.  Are plates available for yours?  I applaud you for doing it by the "degree setting,  don't know if I could  :shrug:

Cletus
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on September 28, 2016, 06:16:40 AM
Kim

Are you a member of the Portland Model Engineers club. They meet in various locations on the second Sat of the month.

Dave

Hi Dave,
Yes, I'm a member of PME, and even come to some of the meetings - though I haven't been in a while since its hard to find the time.  There's even a meeting a week from Saturday isn't there?  It's not too far from my house so I might try to show up.  Do you attend the meetings on a regular basis?

Though I like the idea of meeting with people face to face, with the way my world is right now, I find it difficult to set aside specific time for a meeting.  It takes time away from my family on a Saturday, which is one of the few days I get to see them.  But I still like to try :)

The forum tends to fit my topsy-turvy schedule more easily, since its here when I have time.

If you ever figure out a use for it, I've got a 79 & 1/2 tooth gear left over from my Minnie....
Joe,
We can put your 79.5 tooth gear with my 31.5 gear and we'd be set!  Something good would be bound to come out of that!  :Lol:

I applaud you for doing it by the "degree setting,  don't know if I could  :shrug:
Hi Cletus,
Thanks for looking in on me!  Actually, using the RT and dividing by degrees hasn't been a problem for me (yet... knock-on-wood).  It's been getting the gear cutter made well, made sharp, and centered on the blank, and a dozen other little niggly things.  I think I've tripped on them all, and found that indeed, what people tell you is important in making gears, is in fact, quite important! :)

Thanks,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on October 09, 2016, 02:19:19 AM
At my last update, I'd just made a splendid 31.5 tooth gear.

This update, I will show you the creation of the 32 tooth version!

I'm trying to make each gear better.  So this time around - in addition to remembering to tighten the collet  :embarassed: I took some extra pains to make sure everything was lined up properly.

First, I re-checked my RT to make sure that it was going around in circles without any run-out (or atleast minimal run-out).

Second, I tried a different method to center the cutter.  Before, I was lining up the bottom of the cutter with the top of the gear blank, then dropping the cutter 1/2 the width of the cutter+gear blank.  This should work perfectly, but I feel that the teeth have been coming out slanted one way or the other, so I decided to try something else. This time I set the cutter to center height by lining up one of the teeth with a center that I'd put in the RT collet, like so:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021i-Gears-1-DSC_1953.JPG)

And third, I made a rod, 3” long, uniform diameter (turned between centers on my later) and used this to more accurately adjust the position of the tail stock.  Before I was lining it up by eye.  This way, of course, was much better.  I was able to accurately position the tail stock, and not move it to put the mandrel with the gear blank in place.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021i-Gears-2-DSC_1959.JPG)

OK, that’s all that I did different, and the next steps were the same.  But I took pictures of them anyway.  ;) The blank set on the mandrel, all set for cutting:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021i-Gears-3-DSC_1961.JPG)

And here we are, 32 carefully spaced cuts later:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021i-Gears-4-DSC_1964.JPG)

And after a little clean up (I need to do a bit more I can see):
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021i-Gears-5-DSC_1966.JPG)

I’m quite pleased with this gear!  And it makes me feel that I’m going to have to re-do all the others, which I kind-of assumed I would anyway, but seeing this makes it quite clear, even to me!

But now I’m one down, and eight (or so) to go!

Thanks for your help and support,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Flyboy Jim on October 09, 2016, 03:23:54 AM
I don't know squat about making gears Kim..............but dang that sure looks nice to me!  :ThumbsUp:

It'll be neat to see how it looks meshed up with it's partner.

Jim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: scc on October 09, 2016, 10:26:18 AM
That's great progress Kim,    My excuse for not gearcutting was that my machines were not big enough, so I took the easy option and farmed them out.  I know we are on a different scale here but I am full of admiration for your approach and workmanship.  Well Done indeed :ThumbsUp:

Terry
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: fumopuc on October 09, 2016, 11:46:38 AM
Hi Kim, great success. Good to follow your learning curve.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on October 09, 2016, 03:38:30 PM
Thanks Jim, Terry, and Achim,
I really appreciate the encouragement!

It'll be neat to see how it looks meshed up with it's partner.

I think I'm going to wait till I've made a few better gears.  I'm not sure I want to see this one fraternizing with those old hook-toothed gears that I made earlier :)

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Don1966 on October 09, 2016, 03:59:50 PM
Your taken all the appropriate steps Kim and the gear does look great. I would say your on your way to happy gear making buddy...... :ThumbsUp: it's important that all beginners read Ivan Law's book
"Gears and Gear Cutting" to get an understanding of gears and cutting them. Money well spent....

Don
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on October 10, 2016, 06:03:22 AM
Thanks Don,
Yes, I've got Ivan Law's book.  I've read it and refer to it frequently.  As with many things, it makes more sense to me once I've actually tried to do it!  It's a fairly inexpensive book, and I agree, it is well worth the money!

Thanks,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Roger B on October 20, 2016, 08:14:12 PM
Still following along and trying to understand gear cutting   :headscratch: I am still buying mine  ::)
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: crueby on October 20, 2016, 08:31:22 PM
Kim, that last one came out great!

Roger, I think the gear cutting is one of those things that makes more sense once you have actually gone through the process for real. Follow the steps from the book, and it becomes clearer. Do some and then try a bevel gear set, thats a very cool process!
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on October 20, 2016, 10:45:11 PM
I think you are doing great Kim. Onward and upward and you will get there.

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on October 22, 2016, 06:46:19 PM
Thanks Roger, Chris and Bill,

Roger, I think the gear cutting is one of those things that makes more sense once you have actually gone through the process for real. Follow the steps from the book, and it becomes clearer.

Couldn't agree more!  I read the book and understood it.  Then I actually tried it and had to go back, re-read the book with different eyes, and figure it out again.  And all the great advice and encouragement has helped immensely!

Kim

Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on November 06, 2016, 12:42:04 AM
Sometimes, life just conspires to keep you out of the shop, you know?

Regardless, I’ve made some headway over the last few weeks.  Now that I feel I’m starting to get the gear making process down, I decided I’d batch a few things to save on setup time.  So I turned 3 different buttons (all 48 pitch; 20 tooth, 66 tooth, and 80 tooth cutters), shaped them, heat treated and tempered them, then used them to make the cutters.  Unfortunately, somewhere in there, I lost the 48-20 button :(, so I’ll probably have to do that one over unless I find it somewhere soon.

But here are the cutters I made for 66 and 80 tooth:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021j-Gears-5-DSC_1982.JPG)

Then I made a blank for the 66 tooth, just under 1.5”.  But for the 80 tooth, I needed some 1/4” thick brass that was 1 3/4” in diameter (ish) and I had no brass bar that big.  So, I decided to put a couple of my failed attempts at 120 tooth gears to good use and try brazing them together to use for this blank.

I cleaned the 1/8” disks then spread some flux across both of them, and put a few small pieces of silver solder on one half.  My plan was to line them up on a 1/4" bolt and hope that gravity would be enough to pull them together.  This seemed to work fine :) Here it is just before I put the two pieces together. One is on the fixture, the other is sitting on the side, waiting to be placed on top:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021j-Gears-1-DSC_1969.JPG)

It took me a couple of tries (I’ve never silver soldered anything this large before), but I think I got it.  You can see a few places where I held the heat too long in one place and it started to puddle.  I’ll get better.  :embarassed:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021j-Gears-2-DSC_1972.JPG)

Out of the pickle bath, but before cleaning up.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021j-Gears-3-DSC_1975.JPG)

And here I’ve turned it down to the 1.708” required for the 80 tooth blank.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021j-Gears-4-DSC_1978.JPG)

Believe it or not, that was two shop sessions for me (last weekend and today).

Next time out I’ll probably re-do the 20 tooth button and make that cutter.  Then I’ll work on the gears.

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: vcutajar on November 06, 2016, 02:24:24 PM
Kim, when you said puddle, those that mean that the brass was meltimg? 

That was a great idea to recyle.

Vince
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: steamer on November 06, 2016, 02:43:15 PM
Making tools to make tools, to make parts is very satisfying!!!

Nice job Kim!

Dave
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on November 06, 2016, 03:08:00 PM
Thanks Dave!  Yes, making the tools to make the tools to make the parts adds a lot of time to the build, but it really is satisfying!  And since I look at each part as its own project anyway, it's kind-of moot how long it takes. I'm working on a different project every time I go out to the shop!

Vince,  yes, your right.  When I said puddling, what I meant was that I melted the brass into a little puddle - so it looked like I was welding, not when brazing.  :embarassed:

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on November 07, 2016, 12:30:51 AM
After getting the 80 tooth blank to size, I decided to cut it now so I didn’t have to take it off the mandrel. 

I have changed the way I establish the center line for gear cutter.  For the first several gears (or trial gears  :)) I was touching the gear cutter off the top of the gear blank, then bringing the cutter down by 1/2 the diameter of the blank plus 1/2 the width of the cutter.  But that wasn’t giving very good results.  So, now I’m using this method to get the cutter on the centerline; I put a dead center in the 3/8 collet on my RT, and center the point of the cutting edge on the dead center, like so:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021k-Gears-5-DSC_1993.JPG)
The back lighting really helps me see the points better.

Here’s a series of me cutting the 80 tooth gear;
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021k-Gears-1-DSC_1983.JPG)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021k-Gears-2-DSC_1986.JPG)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021k-Gears-3-DSC_1987.JPG)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021k-Gears-4-DSC_1989.JPG)

After that, I did the same for the 66 tooth gear.  The biggest issue with this gear was that 66 is not easily divisible into 360.   So, all the settings for the RT were peculiar.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021k-Gears-6-DSC_1997.JPG)

I’m quite happy with how these gears are turning out, and now I think there is no question but that I will be re-doing the 120 and 16 tooth gears that I started with.

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on November 07, 2016, 12:39:48 AM
Those are beautiful Kim. Well done!!  :ThumbsUp:

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: 10KPete on November 07, 2016, 01:47:12 AM
By golly, Kim, you're the gear maker now!!! Excellent!!

Pete
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: joe d on November 07, 2016, 03:00:48 AM
Looking really good, Kim!  :ThumbsUp:

Joe
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: fumopuc on November 07, 2016, 04:24:34 AM
Hi Kim, some beautifull gears. Interesting learning curve to follow here. Thanks for showing it.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on November 07, 2016, 06:04:13 AM
Thank you Bill, Pete, Joe, and Achim,
I appreciate the encouragement and the comments.
It has been a facinating learning curve for sure!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Don1966 on November 08, 2016, 04:54:20 PM
Kim those gears look great! I would say you have them down now and a big applause goes to you for taking that step to advance your knowledge. Awesome results...... :ThumbsUp:


Don
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on November 28, 2016, 03:31:45 AM
Hey Don, thanks for the kind words! They are much appreciated, in spite of my slow response :)

Over the Thanksgiving Holidays I got some time to play out in my shop.  The going is slow, but I’m pushing along.  Part of what slowed it down THIS time is that I decided that I needed to re-do some of those first gear cutters I made – they just didn't meet my newly developed standards.  I learned a lot in the last month or two and I wanted to fold that in to those 16 tooth and 120 tooth gears.  So it was pretty much starting from the beginning on those.  New buttons, new cutters, harden, temper, then cut the gear - you know the drill.

After much work, and a lot of tooth cutting, here is my set of 7 spur gears for the tractor:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021l-Gears-1-DSC_2001.JPG)

And here are the 5 different cutters I made for them (not showing all the ‘practice’ attempts :)).
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021l-Gears-2-DSC_2003.JPG)

With the Spur gears completed, my next task is the worm gears for the steering.  Those are also 48 DP, but I need to make a different tool for the worm. I decided to cut the basic shape on my mill.  I needed to have a 20 degree slope on each side of the tool face, so I used a 20 degree angle block, and took off some on one side, then I flipped it over and did the same on the other side, leaving the cutting tip at 0.015”, as indicated by Don’s Magic Gear Cutting Spreadsheet :) (Thanks again Don!)
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021l-Gears-3-DSC_2005.JPG)

Then I cut a flat on the top.  I tried to cut this at a slight angle due to the helix angle (just over 3.5 degrees).
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021l-Gears-4-DSC_2007.JPG)

Following that, I heat treated the tool, then touched it up on my grinder some to make sure it was sharp, and had a little relief.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021l-Gears-5-DSC_2010.JPG)

Here’s me checking one more time, that I had ~0.015” width tip.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021l-Gears-6-DSC_2012.JPG)

48DP translates to about 15.28 TPI, and I spent some time trying to find a thread setting in my gear box that would get me close to that value.  I’d just about settled for 1.6mm, which would result in about 15.88 TPI.  Not as close as I’d like, but since I’m making both the worm screw and mating gear, I figured it would be fine.

But as I was testing out the chosen 1.6mm setting, I saw that my lathe actually supported actual DP setting!  I didn’t remember that!  I’m actually pretty sure that when I bought the lathe that I had no idea what DP even meant!  :embarassed: But how cool is that?

However, to use the DP settings, I had to do a gear change. Having never done that before on this lathe, it took me a while to dig out the manual, figure out how to get the gears off, adjust the settings of the banjo, and get it all set back right.  But I did it!  At least, I did it well enough that it worked! :)
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021l-Gears-7-DSC_2014.JPG)

And after taking a starting cut, I checked with one of my 48 DP gears and it looked like all that gear change trouble was worth it!
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021l-Gears-8-DSC_2018.JPG)

This first test worm I cut in aluminum.  And you can see I need to do some more clean up on it.  But I’m calling it a success!
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021l-Gears-9-DSC_2021.JPG)

Now to cut the real one.  I’m thinking I’ll use Stainless for the worm, rather than Brass. Does that sound reasonable?

Thanks for checking in!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Don1966 on November 28, 2016, 11:29:10 AM
They all look great Kim and some beautiful work. I just want to mention despite of your setbacks making them, you have gained a vast experience and knowledge making them. Your effects has payed off. Looking at your worm it looks like your tool is not sharp. The aluminum has rolled upwards and made ridges. You may want to pass your cutter on a stone to make sure it is sharp. As for the material to make your worm with would be more your choice and stainless sounds fine.

Don
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: scc on November 28, 2016, 11:17:21 AM
Kim, That's very impressive work :ThumbsUp:                 Terry
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on November 28, 2016, 12:43:26 PM
I am certainly impressed!!  Very nice Kim. Good to see an update as well.

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: 10KPete on November 28, 2016, 03:55:42 PM
Mr. Gearmaker!!  Outstanding!!

 :cheers:

Pete
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on November 28, 2016, 07:35:38 PM
Kim, only difference between you and the pros,  is you show us your practice pieces  :naughty:. Damn fine gear train  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

Cletus
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: crueby on November 29, 2016, 12:30:55 AM
Nice work on the gears! I like how the worm gear came out, I think cutting it was simpler than figuring out the gear setting on the lathe!
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on November 29, 2016, 01:36:25 AM
Thank you everyone,
Yes Don, I think you're right about the too, I'll make sure to sharpen it up a bit before I do the 'real thing'.  Another part to that is the Aluminum I used - its really sticky stuff - not exactly sure what it is - it was from Home Depot, so you're never sure what kind of metal you get from there...

... I think cutting it was simpler than figuring out the gear setting on the lathe!
Quite true! :)
Actually, the challenge cutting the screw was that I couldn't disengage the half nut once I started cutting the worm.  I've always been able to disengage the half-nut and use the threading dial to indicate when to engage it for the next pass, but not for the DP settings.  I had to leave it engaged and reverse the carriage back to the starting point.  Not hard - just different.  And I was concerned that I'd over-run my gap when trying to stop, or forget and disengage the half-nut.  Luckily, I made it for my practice one.  Lets see if I can do as well on the real one!  :naughty:

Thank you all,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Dave Otto on November 29, 2016, 01:45:08 AM
Amazing work Kim; your stick-to-it-iveness has certainly paid off!
I have been here following along and not always getting comments posted as I should. When you sharpen your tools have you tried the thumb nail method to check for sharp? The cutting edge should be grabby on your nail and not just easily slide along.

Your gears look wonderful!
Dave
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on November 29, 2016, 07:21:05 AM
Thanks for looking in Dave, and thanks for the excellent tip on checking the edge of a tool for sharpness.  I'll have to give that a shot!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: steamer on November 29, 2016, 02:11:42 PM
That looks great Kim!      16 TP with a 37/47 transposition pair will give 1.666mm pitch......additionally, the pitch error with a worm wheel isn't so bad if you're running a  single start worm as you're only really engaging 1 tooth at a time.

I'm going back through your post, I want to see how you backed off those cutters.....  8-)  Nice!   

Dave
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on November 30, 2016, 07:58:53 AM
Hey Dave,
Thanks for looking in!

I'm going back through your post, I want to see how you backed off those cutters.....  8-) 

If you mean the gear cutters, that was described back in post 423 (or so - it was page 29 I think).  I just used a file to back off the top edge of the cutter.  I didn't really do it the 'right' way, but this seems to be working out OK for the few small gears I'm making.

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on December 17, 2016, 05:53:21 PM
This post has been a long time in coming.  I’ve been working on these two gears for the past 3 weeks and have finally finished them up to my satisfaction (i.e. they pass the Good Enough inspection departments rigorous testing process (borrowed from Stan)).  It has been a harrowing journey though!

I didn’t have any stainless 3/8” rod to use for the worm, so I just used some 12L14.  This seemed OK too.  After I made my first skimming pass at 48DP, I (stupidly) released the half nut on the feed.  :facepalm: Oops…  So I had to do it again.  That’s why there’s a double track mark there:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021m-Gears-01-DSC_2025.JPG)

To make sure I DIDN’T do that again, I used some mostly ineffective tape on the handle.  It wouldn’t have kept me from moving the lever, but its purpose was to remind me NOT to!  And it worked for that :)
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021m-Gears-02-DSC_2036.JPG)

Here’s the completed teeth.  Looked pretty good to me – a little chatter there, but not bad.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021m-Gears-03-DSC_2026.JPG)

Then I drilled & reamed the center hole at 3/32”, per plan.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021m-Gears-04-DSC_2027.JPG)

And finally, drilled & tapped for a 2-56 set screw.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021m-Gears-05-DSC_2029.JPG)

And I hold it up next to the gear, and find it doesn’t mesh as well as I think it ought to.  I should have made the teeth (tooth?) on the worm a little deeper (its really just one tooth on a single start worm, right?)
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021m-Gears-06-DSC_2035.JPG)

So, I took this opportunity to order some stainless and went off and worked on the 20tooth spur gear. And last week my 303 came in. So, yesterday, I cut a new worm. I also widened the tip on the tooth form tool a little.  And here’s the result of that attempt.  I think it meshes much more fully than the other one did.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021m-Gears-07-DSC_2061.JPG)

Ok, On to the 20 tooth spur gear.  I had to make a new cutter for this gear.  I don’t show any pictures here, but I went through the whole – button, heat treat, cutter, relief, heat treat process.  And that took a full session there.  Then I made this cool blank for the 20 tooth spur.  I’m getting smarter too!  :noidea:  At some point, I realized that Rudy solders spacers or bushings onto each gear.  But since I’m making my own, I can build them in myself.  So that’s what I did here:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021m-Gears-08-DSC_2038.JPG)

And here’s my 20 toot gear blank, all ready for cutting teeth.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021m-Gears-09-DSC_2042.JPG)

For a mandrel, I used a 3/16” fine tooth bolt that I just happened to have in a bolt junk drawer.   I thought this was brilliant.  Here’s the completed gear.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021m-Gears-10-DSC_2045.JPG)

Unfortunately, once I got the teeth cut, I noticed that something wasn’t looking right.  I put it in the lathe to clean up the edges a bit and that gear wobbled around like nobody’s business!  My 3/16” bolt wasn’t as straight as I thought it was!  And it screwed up my gear something terrible.

So, I backed up (as I often do) and started over (as I often do).  This time, I used a longer piece of brass and so I could clamp that in the collet for tooth cutting (no mandrel required). It cost a little more brass, but it worked MUCH better.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021m-Gears-11-DSC_2048.JPG)

Here’s just after all the teeth have been cut.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021m-Gears-12-DSC_2050.JPG)

Back to the lathe to cut off to length.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021m-Gears-13-DSC_2055.JPG)

Here are my two attempts at that 20 tooth spur gear.  The one on the left is the second attempt (the good one), and the one on the right is the first one (the one I’m calling bad – yes, that one did NOT make it through my QC department).  You can see the teeth aren’t all the same length on the bad one.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021m-Gears-14-DSC_2075.JPG)

And in this view (good on right, bad on left again) you can see the teeth aren’t even straight.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021m-Gears-15-DSC_2074.JPG)

And here’s a shot of the good worm, and the good 20 tooth spur.  I’m much more pleased with these than the first round!
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/021m-Gears-16-DSC_2072.JPG)

That should complete all the gears for this project!  I doubt you’ve been counting, but I have.  And my last 12 build posts have been about nothing but gears, and this started in July! I’m much less scared of gears now than before, but it has been quite a journey for me.  I may not be speedy, but I’ve learned a lot.  And the gears on the NEXT project will be even better.

Thanks for following along,
Kim

Edit: Some setting got changed in Picasa and I was uploading huge images.  Sorry about that, I've fixed it.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: vcutajar on December 17, 2016, 05:47:26 PM
Nice one Kim.  Someday I will have to do my own gears but for the moment I am avoiding it like the plague.

Vince
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Don1966 on December 18, 2016, 01:04:00 AM
Kim it all looks good to me and congrats on your successful journey into gear making..... :praise2:

Don
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Dave Otto on December 18, 2016, 02:26:21 AM
Nice work on the (steering?) gears Kim!

Dave
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on December 18, 2016, 03:22:09 AM
Thanks Vince, Don, and Dave!

Yes, these last two are for the steering.  Guess  I never quite bothered to mention that  :)

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Flyboy Jim on December 18, 2016, 01:54:49 AM
Nice looking gears, Kim. Your perseverance has paid off for sure.

Jim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on December 18, 2016, 07:59:54 AM
Thanks Jim,  ;D
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: fumopuc on December 18, 2016, 07:15:10 AM
Hi Kim, nice progress. Is the gearing department ready to take orders now ?
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on December 18, 2016, 01:43:21 PM
Very impressive Kim and a fine result to show for your efforts too!!

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on December 18, 2016, 08:59:15 PM
Thanks Achim and Bill,
You can certainly place orders!  Not sure how many years it will take for them to be filled! :)
And lets see... Minimum wage, times 6 months per gear.... Not sure how much that works out to, but SDP/SI is probalby cheaper, and DEFINATELY faster! :ROFL:
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Ed on January 09, 2017, 04:13:16 PM
I'm just starting to make the geas for my Rudy engine. I'm having trouble finding the sizes for the gears such as od and thickness. So far I have the big gears cut square getting ready to  to make round and cut teeth. I am using 1/8 thickness 1/4 hole od 25/8. It looks like all the other gears are 1/4 thick is that true. Thanks. Ed PS made my own gear cutter.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Don1966 on January 09, 2017, 07:59:35 PM
I'm just starting to make the geas for my Rudy engine. I'm having trouble finding the sizes for the gears such as od and thickness. So far I have the big gears cut square getting ready to  to make round and cut teeth. I am using 1/8 thickness 1/4 hole od 25/8. It looks like all the other gears are 1/4 thick is that true. Thanks. Ed PS made my own gear cutter.
Ed all you need is the DP which is 48 and number of teeth. Use this spreadsheet to do you calculations http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,6012.0.html or go to Marv's web site and download his gear program. Hope that helps.

Don
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: scc on January 09, 2017, 09:22:30 PM
That's a lot of good work Kim,     Your persiverence certainly pays.  I'm very impressed.

Regards           Terry
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on January 09, 2017, 11:32:51 PM
I'm just starting to make the geas for my Rudy engine. I'm having trouble finding the sizes for the gears such as od and thickness. So far I have the big gears cut square getting ready to  to make round and cut teeth. I am using 1/8 thickness 1/4 hole od 25/8. It looks like all the other gears are 1/4 thick is that true. Thanks. Ed PS made my own gear cutter.

Hi Ed,
I could not find any info on the width's of the gears in Rudy's plans.  I made my best guess and went with it, which looks to be the same direction that you're heading.  I made the bull gears (120 tooth) 1/8" thick, and all the rest 1/4" thick.  As for the diameter, I used Don's spreadsheet (which he pointed you to in his reply).

Now that I've made the gears, I'm working on fitting them up in place.  It looks like a couple of them might have been only 5/32" wide, instead of 1/4", but I'm not certain of that.  As I'll talk about in one of my  next posts, I'm making some modifications to the Counter Shaft, and the Idler Shaft to match the widths of the gears I made.  But I don't think the width is really that critical as long as you make them all line up! :)

But I'm with you Ed, I just couldn't find anywhere that he discussed the widths of the gears.

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on January 09, 2017, 11:33:12 PM
That's a lot of good work Kim,     Your persiverence certainly pays.  I'm very impressed.

Regards           Terry

Thanks Terry!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on January 20, 2017, 05:32:09 AM
I just want to say thank you to Ade for getting the forum back up and running so quickly!
It's a minor miracle that you had a back up as recent as you did!  Jan 10 is only 9 days ago. Yes, the loss is sad, but it will be only a blip in a few weeks.

I will be reposting my progress between the 10th and today.  I happen to have all my updates saved locally.  None of the replies of course, but at least there will be some continuity in the major plot line for the future. 

No need to repost comments.  We'll get to that when I have something new to update!

Thanks,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on January 20, 2017, 05:32:35 AM
After completing the gears, I now need to get them mounted in the power train.  To do that, I have to complete that step that Ed just brought up – how to attach the gears to the shafts.

What Rudy does, is to make hubs with a set screw for most of the gears and join them to the gear with solder.  His assumption being that most people will purchase gears, so will have to add these hubs later.  But since I was making them, I could have been smart and machined them WITH hubs!  I actually got smart and started doing that for the later gears.  But the earlier ones I made were hub free.  So, I'll do some of them Rudy's way.

But before I went and made those hubs, I decided I needed to determine the actual the spacing of the gear train.  The collars are also used as spacers, and since it’s not clear how wide Rudy’s gears are, knowing the width of the hubs he specifies is of limited value.  So, I spent some time and sketched out a cross section of the gear train for the tractor.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/022a-PowerTrainParts-01a-DSC_2303.JPG)
Armed with this, I was then able to proceed to create the spacers and gear hubs of the right size to make it all (hopefully) work.

The first thing I did was to extended the 1/8” sections of the counter shaft. I extended them to 1/4", the width of my spur gears.  I wonder if Rudy’s were 5/32" wide?  This is what he used. I don’t know.  But this should work for me.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/022a-PowerTrainParts-01-DSC_2238.JPG)


Here it is, 1/4" long.  I didn’t change the overall length of the countershaft.  Just the length of the 1/8” portions on each end.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/022a-PowerTrainParts-02-DSC_2243.JPG)

Next I made a small pile of 1/2" x 1/16” thick spacers (washers).  This will help align all the gears according to my drawing.  I’m using a few more of these than Rudy shows.  Not sure why, but that is what makes sense to me.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/022a-PowerTrainParts-03-DSC_2247.JPG)

Next, I turned the Idler Shaft from 3/8” Hex 303 Stainless rod.  I shortened the shaft section of this to 3/8” long (from Rudy’s 7/16”).  This leaves room for two 1/16” spacers, and the 1/4" wide Idler Gear.
Here I’ve turned it down to the basic shape – 1/4” for #8-32 threads, and 3/8” (plus a few thou) for the 1/4" shaft.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/022a-PowerTrainParts-04-DSC_2251.JPG)

Oh yeah!  I almost forgot – I wanted to introduce you to my new Christmas Present!  The Diamond Tangential Tool Holder.  I really like it.  I’ve played around with it a bit and it works quite well.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/022a-PowerTrainParts-05-DSC_2253.JPG)


Using my tailstock die holder, I threaded the 8-32 section.  Then reversed the die for the 2nd run to get a little closer to the edge.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/022a-PowerTrainParts-06-DSC_2256.JPG)

Then cut off the Idler shaft.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/022a-PowerTrainParts-07-DSC_2257.JPG)

Flip it around in a 1/4" collet, face off the end evenly, and round the edge a bit with a file.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/022a-PowerTrainParts-08-DSC_2259.JPG)

And here’s the idler shaft, complete:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/022a-PowerTrainParts-09-DSC_2266.JPG)

After this, I made a few of the hubs and spacers. These were all quite simple turning exercises, plus adding a set screw to a couple of them.

And here are all the miscellaneous parts I completed for the power train:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/022a-PowerTrainParts-10-DSC_2268.JPG)

Now, to hook them all up!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on January 20, 2017, 05:33:36 AM
But wait!  I just THOUGHT I was done with the gears.  I forgot one step!  I wanted to cut spokes in the bull gear!  This certainly isn’t necessary, but I wanted to do it.  And it looked more prototypical to me too (plus, that’s how Rudy’s gears are!).    I’ve seen lots of people do this on flywheels and it looked fun. I figured I should be able to do it no prob.

So, as is often the case, I started by sketching it out to determine how to do this using my RT.  There is a lot of symmetry here and it turns out there are only a few numbers needed, as you see in the short table at the bottom.  And even with that, two of the coordinates actually make the  same hole, so I can just use one of them.  Of course, the other 3 have to be repeated 6 times - once every 60 degrees.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/023a-CrossingOutBullGear-05-DSC_2277.JPG)

Then, I put the RT on the mill, and got it all centered up.  I don’t really have enough headroom to use the coaxial indicator, but I made a special super-short tip, and was just barely able to squeeze it in.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/023a-CrossingOutBullGear-01-DSC_2271.JPG)

With that done, I started to think about how to hold the gears in place.  That was harder than it should have been.  I tried lots of things. In the end, I came up with this:  I made a center for my RT to keep the gears centered, and I mounted an aluminum plate on the RT that I could drill & tap some holes in to use for hold-downs.

To make the center, I turned a 1/2" steel rod (12L14) down to 3/8” to make some 3/8”-16 threads.  This is how you attach things to the center hole of the Sherline RT.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/023a-CrossingOutBullGear-02-DSC_2272.JPG)

Then, I cut the threads.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/023a-CrossingOutBullGear-03-DSC_2273.JPG)

Next, I made a section 7/16” in diameter.  This is the center hole size for the Sherline RT.  And next, I cut a section of it to 1/4" diameter.  This is the center hole size of the gears.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/023a-CrossingOutBullGear-04-DSC_2275.JPG)

After cutting it off, here’s the center (siting on the RT).
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/023a-CrossingOutBullGear-05a-DSC_2306.JPG)

And now, the 3/8” threads are screwed in place.  You can see that a 1/2" length of the 7/16” diameter is still sticking up above the RT.  This will help center the aluminum plate I will use for the hold downs.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/023a-CrossingOutBullGear-05b-DSC_2309.JPG)

Apparently, I forgot to take a picture of my 1/2" aluminum plate, but you can imagine it with a 7/16” hole in the center, and 4 Socket Head Cap screws holding it to the top of the RT.  Then I drilled & tapped some holes to use for the hold downs, and mounted a sample gear in place.  This is one of my messed up attempts at the 120 tooth gear.   I decided to do a practice one, just to make sure my math worked out right, and to give me practice turning the handles in the correct direction.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/023a-CrossingOutBullGear-06-DSC_2278.JPG)

First step: Drill the holes at the bottom center of the cut out – every 60 degrees (this will have 6 spokes – did I say that yet?)
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/023a-CrossingOutBullGear-07-DSC_2283.JPG)

Then holes for the outer left corner:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/023a-CrossingOutBullGear-08-DSC_2287.JPG)

Finally, holes for the outer right corner:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/023a-CrossingOutBullGear-09-DSC_2288.JPG)

After that, I used a 7/32” end mill to connect the top corners using several passes.  Then, I did a single clean-up pass with a 1/4" end mill.  Using two different sized end mills let me do the initial cut, and the clean-up pass, using the exact same X-Y and RT coordinates, and simplified the operations significantly.  And of course, repeated this 6 times too.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/023a-CrossingOutBullGear-10-DSC_2292.JPG)

Next, I cut the right side using the same method as above.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/023a-CrossingOutBullGear-11-DSC_2295.JPG)

And then the final side.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/023a-CrossingOutBullGear-12-DSC_2296.JPG)

And it’s done!  That only took several days – mainly to figure out and build my retention mechanism, followed by several hours of crank turning.  But it worked!
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/023a-CrossingOutBullGear-13-DSC_2300.JPG)

Now, I have to do the REAL gears!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on January 20, 2017, 05:34:15 AM
And now, for the final installment of the seemly never ending saga of Kim’s Gears…

For the final moment of truth!  (or hours of truth really :) ) Cutting the spokes in the REAL gears!

That whole process took long enough that I decided I didn’t want to do it two more times. So I stacked up the two bull gears and went to work:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/023b-CrossingOutBullGear-3-DSC_2310.JPG)

After drilling all the holes for the corners, I used a Sharpie to mark in the area I wanted to remove.  This helped me visualize where I wanted this hunk of swiss cheese to go, and hopefully helped improve the prospects of removing the correct sections!
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/023b-CrossingOutBullGear-4-DSC_2314.JPG)

I don’t want to bore you with all the same pictures again, but I did include a few highlights.  So here’s the top curved sections removed.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/023b-CrossingOutBullGear-5-DSC_2316.JPG)

And then all done!
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/023b-CrossingOutBullGear-6-DSC_2317.JPG)

And finally, I’ll leave you with a family shot of the 9 gears I’ve made for the steam tractor:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/023b-CrossingOutBullGear-7-DSC_2324.JPG)

Thanks for following along on my heroic journey!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on January 20, 2017, 05:34:45 AM
My plan was to get the whole gear train put together today!  I’m pretty close, just have to do a few more things before I’m ready.

First, I need to add the set screw to the 66-tooth gear.  So, here goes:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/024a-FinishingThePowerTrain-01-DSC_2325.JPG)

After that, I decided it was time to solder the gears up.  Unfortunately, it was still 28 F outside today, but I’d waited all I could.  I braved the cold, opened the door and did my soldering.

I made a little jig to keep the 1/4" center aligned with the 1/8” center – the post is aluminum.  I don’t think this would work if I were sliver soldering, but just soft solder, it should be fine.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/024a-FinishingThePowerTrain-02-DSC_2329.JPG)

Here’s one of the hubs.  I’ve cleaned it, put a little flux there, and a few pieces of solder.  The solder I had was way too big, so I took a piece, pounded it thin, and used some side-cutters to nibble off little pieces.  Then I placed them strategically around the area to be soldered.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/024a-FinishingThePowerTrain-03-DSC_2336.JPG)

Then, I put one of the 16-tooth spur gears on top – cleaned and prepped with a dab of flux.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/024a-FinishingThePowerTrain-04-DSC_2337.JPG)

I originally tried to use a little butane torch I had, but it just couldn’t get the whole setup hot enough to even do this low temp solder.  So I switched to my Oxy-Acetylene torch.  I used the smallest tip I had (000), and kept the heat moving, away from the solder, and it worked smashingly well.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/024a-FinishingThePowerTrain-05-DSC_2339.JPG)

Then I did the same to the 66-tooth gear and the other 16-tooth, like so (I put a screw in the set screw hole to help keep the threads clear):
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/024a-FinishingThePowerTrain-06-DSC_2341.JPG)

And finally, I soldered a hub on the 32-tooth gear.  Both of these had a 1/4" holes, so I changed the setup a bit.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/024a-FinishingThePowerTrain-07-DSC_2345.JPG)

Here is the output of all my soldering (burr, it was cold!)
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/024a-FinishingThePowerTrain-08-DSC_2347.JPG)

With that complete, I waited a bit, and then closed the door. My shop started to warm up right away!  8)

Last, I needed to mount the bull gears to the rear wheels.  This is done using three 4-40 screws.  And as usual, the most difficult part was figuring out how to hold the whole thing in place while you machine.  This is what I came up with to drill these holes.  Here I’m using the edge finder to line up the RT using the spokes.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/024a-FinishingThePowerTrain-09-DSC_2351.JPG)

Then I spotted and drilled three holes, appropriately sized for tapping 4-40 threads.  I went back around and made a clearance hole through the bull gear.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/024a-FinishingThePowerTrain-10-DSC_2355.JPG)

Finally, I tapped the wheel hub.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/024a-FinishingThePowerTrain-11-DSC_2357.JPG)

And here are the two completed rear wheel assemblies.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/024a-FinishingThePowerTrain-12-DSC_2358.JPG)

Unfortunately, I didn’t have enough time to get it all mounted today. So, that will be an adventure for next time out in the shop!

Thanks for taking a look!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Jo on January 20, 2017, 08:41:56 AM
 8) That looks good Kim

Jo
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Steamer5 on January 20, 2017, 09:00:46 AM
Hi Kim,
 Dam you've got this gear thing beat hands down!
At this rate I might have to see if I can get another crop of  :popcorn: in!


Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: vcutajar on January 20, 2017, 12:04:28 PM
Thanks Kim for reposting.  It will surely be helpful to anybody following your footsteps.

Vince
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on January 21, 2017, 05:59:03 AM
Thanks Jo, Kerrin, and Vince,

Thank you for taking a look, and for the comments!
Kim

PS And thank you to all the people who commented before too, but who's comments were a victim of the host crash.  ::)
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on January 21, 2017, 01:57:07 PM
Rudy would be proud Kim. The gears really are beautiful too.

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on January 21, 2017, 06:45:09 PM
Thanks Bill  :)
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on January 22, 2017, 05:11:45 AM
[We are back to real time now.]

My goal for the day; to complete the power train for the tractor.  I’ve got all the work done to get there, I just have to put the pieces in place.

But it wasn’t very long before I hit my first snag. The head on the bolts holding the Horn Plates in place were too tall and interfered with the gears. If you look at the top of the picture, you can see that the gear has hit the bolt head but it still has about 1/16” to go.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/024b-FinishingThePowerTrain-01-DSC_2361.JPG)

My solution was to cut the bolt heads thinner.  I was sort of planning on doing this anyway, based on Jason’s comment WAY earlier in my thread when we were talking about the Horn Plate bolts.  But now it was time.  So I put them in the lathe and took the heads down, then rounded them a bit with a file.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/024b-FinishingThePowerTrain-02-DSC_2365.JPG)

After completing that on all the bolt heads, and reassembling everything, here’s how it looks.  Plenty of clearance now!
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/024b-FinishingThePowerTrain-03-DSC_2367.JPG)

I had to fit the Idler Gear Mounting block in place too, since I hadn’t done that yet.  I wanted to wait to fit that in place after I had the gears and could make sure everything fit right.  So, I carefully marked the horn plate, drilled and mounted the Idler Block. Unfortunately, the Idler gear didn’t mesh well with its neighbors so I spent some time adjusting things till the did.  Unfortunately, I completely missed taking any pictures of this lengthy interlude.

Once I had the idler gear meshing well with the rest of the gear train, it was time to mount the rear wheels. And then I hit another problem.  When I put the spacer next to the rear wheel, it hit the heads of the SCHS used to attach the gears to the hubs.  Bummer :(
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/024b-FinishingThePowerTrain-04-DSC_2372.JPG)

The resolution for this was to go back to the lathe and take a nibble off the spacers. This allowed the spacers fit down between the heads of the screws, like so:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/024b-FinishingThePowerTrain-05-DSC_2375.JPG)

With that done, the rear wheels were mounted, the set screws were tightened, and low and behold, it works!  The gears go-round and the wheels turn!  I couldn’t be happier!

Here are a few close-ups of the newly installed gear train.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/024b-FinishingThePowerTrain-06-DSC_2386.JPG)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/024b-FinishingThePowerTrain-07-DSC_2388.JPG)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/024b-FinishingThePowerTrain-08-DSC_2380.JPG)

And now, the family shot showing all progress to date.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/024b-FinishingThePowerTrain-09-DSC_2379.JPG)

Next up will be the steering!
Thanks for checking in,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: 10KPete on January 22, 2017, 06:51:01 AM
Kim, that's just a beautiful tractor! With the gears and wheels it's now very much a tractor just waiting for motive power... I'll be watching this great build continue.  :popcorn:

Pete
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Steamer5 on January 22, 2017, 07:08:31 AM
Wooooo that's looking the part Kim!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Roger B on January 22, 2017, 08:18:57 AM
 :praise2:  :praise2:  :wine1:
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: fumopuc on January 22, 2017, 06:42:00 PM
Hi Kim, good progress. I like this kind of projects. There are so many different hidden tasks in it.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on January 22, 2017, 10:53:55 PM
Thanks Pete, Kerrin, Roger, and Achim,

I appreciate the kind words!

Hi Kim, good progress. I like this kind of projects. There are so many different hidden tasks in it.
I know exactly what you mean Achim!  That is one of the reasons I choose this as my current projects.  There were so many different things to try!  And I'm learning from every step.

I may be slow, but I'm having fun :)
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on January 22, 2017, 10:54:40 PM
Great work Kim. It's sure starting to look like a traction engine now  :cheers:

Cletus
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on January 22, 2017, 11:12:14 PM
Thanks Cletus! :)
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on January 23, 2017, 12:17:42 AM
Simply fantastic Kim!!!  Very nice work-arounds too on the bolt clearance issues.

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Dave Otto on January 23, 2017, 02:40:30 AM
Looks great Kim!

Dave
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Flyboy Jim on January 23, 2017, 02:58:12 AM
Fantastic Kim! That "bad boy" is starting to look like a tractor.

Jim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on January 23, 2017, 05:54:13 AM
Thanks Bill, Dave, and Jim,
I appreciate you stopping by and having a look!

Did a little work today, but not much.  Got started on the upper steering bracket - that's the easy one.  The lower one will be harder because it has to be made so that the worm and spur gear mesh properly.

Next weekend maybe I'll have an update?
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on February 13, 2017, 03:54:02 AM
I’m getting behind in posting my progress! Sorry about that.  I’m going to try and catch up this week.

I’d mentioned that I made the upper steering bracket, but now, finally, here’s the build log to back up with that feeble statement with photographic evidence. :)

I made the bracket from a piece of 1/32” sheet steel.  So here it is all marked out  and ready to be removed from the sheet:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/025a-SteeringBrackets-01-DSC_2389.JPG)

First, I drilled the hole for the steering column (do it while the piece is big enough to hold on to!)
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/025a-SteeringBrackets-02-DSC_2392.JPG)

Then I nibbled it down to size, leaving it on the parent stock.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/025a-SteeringBrackets-03-DSC_2395.JPG)

I used a combination of nibbler and disk sander to shape the end, like so:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/025a-SteeringBrackets-04-DSC_2399.JPG)

Then to the mini-brake to bend the bracket.  Before bending:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/025a-SteeringBrackets-05-DSC_2402.JPG)

After bending:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/025a-SteeringBrackets-06-DSC_2403.JPG)

Using the nibblers again, I cut it off the parent stock.  Then I made a saw kerf in a wood slat I had (a free paint stirring stick from Home Depot) and used that as a handle to bring the edge of the bracket to size on the disk sander.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/025a-SteeringBrackets-07-DSC_2406.JPG)

Finally drill the holes for the rivets:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/025a-SteeringBrackets-08-DSC_2407.JPG)

And here’s the competed bracket:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/025a-SteeringBrackets-09-DSC_2410.JPG)

Actually, that’s the 2nd completed bracket.  When I was cleaning up the edges, I dropped the first one and it was gone!  Off to decorate the cave of some happy little shop gnome.  >:( So I did it again.  Went faster the 2nd time of course, but made me feel stupid. ::)

I'll try to get a few more posts up this week so I can get caught up!
Thanks for looking in,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on February 13, 2017, 11:55:08 AM
Nice to see an update Kim and I like the idea of the saw kerf in the paint stick to assist with the sanding, will have to file that one away  :ThumbsUp:

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Don1966 on February 13, 2017, 04:18:48 PM
Kim, I somehow missed one of your post but all caught up now. The socket head screws could of been replaced with flat head screws and countersunk. But you did well and any progress is good movement forward buddy. The tractor is looking great with the gears on it and the family shot...... :praise2:


Don
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on February 13, 2017, 09:24:55 PM
Thanks Bill and Don!

The socket head screws could of been replaced with flat head screws and countersunk.

You are SO right Don!  :facepalm:  Unfortunately, I didn't think about that till after I'd implemented my slightly more heavy handed fix.  And in fact, I am planning on using some shorter hex head screws, but now that you mention it, countersunk flat head screws might be the best way.  I may re-do the spacers. They're not to hard to turn out :)

Thanks for stopping buy,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: 90LX_Notch on February 14, 2017, 12:12:02 AM
Kim-

It looks really good.  I would love to build one but it would take me ten years or more to complete.  Keep up the great work.

-Bob
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Dave Otto on February 14, 2017, 12:12:52 AM
Hi Kim

Isn't sheet metal fun?  :lolb: Nice looking little part; I assume by the name that it supports the upper end of the steering shaft?

Dave
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on February 14, 2017, 05:24:11 AM
Thanks Bob and Dave!

I would love to build one but it would take me ten years or more to complete.
Bob, what if you did it at 1/4 size? You could have it done in 2.5 years then!  :Lol:

Isn't sheet metal fun?  :lolb:
Yeah, Dave, I'm kinda enjoying the sheet metal work (in small doses, that is! :))

Nice looking little part; I assume by the name that it supports the upper end of the steering shaft?
Yes, that is correct!  And if I ever get this thread up to date, you could actually see it supporting the steering column!  :cartwheel:

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: 90LX_Notch on February 14, 2017, 04:38:49 PM
That is funny Kim. Unfortunately, when you go really small, time is a multiple.  Therefore, it would take me fourty years.

-Bob
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on February 18, 2017, 06:34:49 PM
Next, I started on the lower steering brackets.  These were more complicated, especially the left side, which has to hold the worm and spur gears in the right orientation.

Here’s the bracket laid out on the 1/16” brass sheet.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/025a-SteeringBrackets-10-DSC_2411.JPG)

Frist, I roughed it out on the scroll saw.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/025a-SteeringBrackets-11-DSC_2412.JPG)

Then I used a combination of files & disk sander to finish up the shape, and drilled the hole for the Steering Chain Roller.  After that, it was time for bending:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/025a-SteeringBrackets-12-DSC_2414.JPG)

I left the square end of the bracket long since I didn’t know how much metal would get ‘used up’ by bending the 1/16” metal.  It was easier to just measure the side being bent, and cut the other side to length later. Which is what I did here on the mill:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/025a-SteeringBrackets-13-DSC_2415.JPG)

Then I drilled the mounting holes.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/025a-SteeringBrackets-14-DSC_2416.JPG)

Next, I needed to make the post that will hold the steering column. This is a piece of 1/4" brass bar stock, with the end rounded.

To round off the end, I made a little fixture; it was just a scrap piece of 1/4" aluminum bar that I cut a shallow 1/4” wide slot, to hold the brass bar.  And I put a threaded hole in it to use for a hold-down.  Here I’m finishing up threading the hole in the holder:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/025a-SteeringBrackets-15-DSC_2419.JPG)

And here’s my fixture in action.  You can see the 1/4" brass stock, and I’m just rotating it around a 3/32” pivot to round the end.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/025a-SteeringBrackets-16-DSC_2423.JPG)
I’ve seen many other people on this forum use a technique similar to this. And while it worked fine, if I decided to try this again, I will definitely make the fixture longer.  It was about 6” long, but that still got my fingers a little close for my comfort.  It didn’t feel as ‘secure’ as I would have liked when shaping the end.

With the steering column post completed, it was time to solder it to the bracket.  The angle of the post is important, so I took care in setting that up accurately.  Here’s the part, just before soldering, with flux and solder applied:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/025a-SteeringBrackets-17-DSC_2425.JPG)

And after. You can see I got the top of the post a little hot, but not too bad. It cleaned up quite well.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/025a-SteeringBrackets-18-DSC_2429.JPG)

And here’s the completed right steering bracket.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/025a-SteeringBrackets-19-DSC_2432.JPG)

And here are the two brackets. The steering roller chain will be suspended between these two, and the steering column will be held by the post on the on the left.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/025a-SteeringBrackets-20-DSC_2434.JPG)
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on February 18, 2017, 06:50:51 PM
Next is mounting all the steering brackets.

I started with the two lower brackets; the ones that will hold the Steering Chain Roller.  Here’s the one on the left side bolted in place:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/025a-SteeringBrackets-21-DSC_2438.JPG)

And the one on the right:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/025a-SteeringBrackets-22-DSC_2440.JPG)

Now I can position the upper steering column bracket.  I did this by using the 3/32” brass rod that will become the steering column.  By running this through the lower bracket, I can find the best place to mount the upper bracket while keeping the column able to rotate freely.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/025a-SteeringBrackets-23-DSC_2441.JPG)

I used a piece of double-sided-sticky-tape to hold the bracket in place.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/025a-SteeringBrackets-24-DSC_2443.JPG)

Then I took the horn plate off the tractor and drilled matching rivet holes in the horn plate.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/025a-SteeringBrackets-25-DSC_2446.JPG)

Here’s the Upper Steering Column Bracket after being riveted in place.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/025a-SteeringBrackets-26-DSC_2448.JPG)

And, after reassembling the horn plate, and adding the steering worm, and spur gears, we have this!  :cartwheel:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/025a-SteeringBrackets-27-DSC_2452.JPG)

As it turns out, while my bracket here held the worm and spur together, it was quite tight.  It required excessive force to turn the worm, and just seemed like things would wear excessively.  So after a lot of hemming & hawing, I finally unsoldered and re-soldered the post, moving it just a fraction higher (maybe, 1/64” or so.  It took me two tries to get it right). But it was worth it, it really helped a lot!   Now it turns freely and the spacing of the worm & spur seem quite goodl.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/025a-SteeringBrackets-28-DSC_2450.JPG)

And this, my friends, brings you up to real-time with my build!
So, it is NOW time for me to go play in my shop for a while  ;D
Talk to you all in a bit,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 18, 2017, 07:17:07 PM
 :ThumbsUp: Looking good Kim.  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Dave Otto on February 18, 2017, 07:35:12 PM
Nicely done Kim!
Thanks for the update.


Dave
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Don1966 on February 18, 2017, 07:39:56 PM
More great progress and looking good Kim..... :ThumbsUp:

Don
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on February 19, 2017, 02:05:07 AM
Zee, Dave, and Don,
Thanks for stopping by and for leaving the comments!
Much appreciated!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on February 19, 2017, 02:29:20 AM
Nice work on a very tricky part Kim....well done!!

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on February 20, 2017, 03:42:48 AM
Thanks Bill!  Yeah, I'm still trying to get the hang of these fabricated parts, as you can see in this post too!

-----

One detail I hadn’t done yet was to finish up the Steering Chain Roller. I needed to drill and tap a couple of 2-56 holes in the roller to provide a way to attach the steering chain.  While doing this, I also milled a couple of flats for the spur gear and the collar.  (you really can see the flats if you look closely on the right side)
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/026a-SteeringWheel-01-DSC_2454.JPG)

Then, it’s time for the steering wheel. I started that by bending a piece of 3/32” round brass into a circle of ~1 1/8” in diameter.  Then I scribed the steering wheel web on a piece of 1/32” brass and roughed it out with the nibbler.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/026a-SteeringWheel-02-DSC_2456.JPG)

After cutting the steering wheel web on the scroll saw, cleaned it up with files, then bent the five spider legs to shape it, like so:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/026a-SteeringWheel-03-DSC_2458.JPG)

Then I setup the steering wheel for soldering.  I forgot to get my usual ‘before’ picture, but it looked a LOT better than the after shot; it looks more like a burnt offering to the metal gods!  Too much flux, too much heat, and too much solder.  I did it all wrong here. But I kept working at it till I thought it might pass.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/026a-SteeringWheel-04-DSC_2463.JPG)

And after a good scrubbing to get rid of the black gunk, and a lot of filing to remove the excess solder, here’s out it turned out:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/026a-SteeringWheel-05-DSC_2467.JPG)

Not the most consistent solder job in the world.  But since this is my learning engine (aren’t they all? :)) I decided I was happy with it!

To compete the steering wheel, I needed to make the steering knob.  I did this by putting a piece of 3/32” brass rod on the lathe and attacking it with some files.  Here’s out it turned out:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/026a-SteeringWheel-06-DSC_2470.JPG)

The next challenge was to drill a little hole in the steering wheel to mount it. The thing I should have done would have been to drill the steering wheel ring BEFORE I soldered it onto the 6” long steering column.  There was no way to fit this all in my mill.  Just too tall.  So I ended up figuring out a way to hold the steering wheel & column assembly under my bigger, bench drill press.  I was a little worried due to the tiny drill size, (this drill press isn't so accurate) but it worked out just fine!
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/026a-SteeringWheel-07-DSC_2480.JPG)

To attach the steering knob I used a little bit of red Loctite.  I didn’t want to heat that part up again for fear of everything falling apart! :o
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/026a-SteeringWheel-08-DSC_2483.JPG)

With that complete, I filed a flat for the worm gear on the end of the steering column, and assembled all parts of the steering column.  And here’s out it looks:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/026a-SteeringWheel-09-DSC_2486.JPG)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/026a-SteeringWheel-10-DSC_2490.JPG)

Now, to add the steering chains!

Thanks for stopping by,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Flyboy Jim on February 20, 2017, 04:40:02 AM
Good looking steering wheel Kim. I like the steering knob.............except it needs a picture of Betty Grable's famous picture in it!  :naughty:

I always look forward to your updates.

Jim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: 10KPete on February 20, 2017, 05:25:08 AM
Wow, that steering wheel came out great! I was wondering how you were going to do it.

Keep it going, I love watching how you figure things out!!   :praise2:

Pete
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 20, 2017, 11:27:22 AM
Nice job. And you've got to be proud of that knob! Filed! Wow.  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: fumopuc on February 20, 2017, 05:00:25 PM
Hi Kim, lovely. Nice fabrication.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on February 20, 2017, 06:09:12 PM
Thanks Jim, Pete, Zee, and Achim for stopping by!

.....except it needs a picture of Betty Grable's famous picture in it!  :naughty:
I must be off by a few years; Betty Grable doesn't ring a bell for me. I had to google her.  Came up with lots of pictures, but none with a tractor :) Maybe I'm looking for the wrong thing?

And you've got to be proud of that knob! Filed! Wow.
Yeah, I'm actually pretty pleased with how it came out. I just couldn't see trying to use a standard lathe cutting tool on something that's essentially a big wire (3/32").  The files worked quite well and I just free-handed it.

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: steamer on February 20, 2017, 06:44:26 PM
That's coming along great!   

Dave
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on February 20, 2017, 07:30:51 PM
That is sweet Kim. Fine job on the steering wheel and knob!!

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Don1966 on February 20, 2017, 10:47:31 PM
Coming along great Kim...... :ThumbsUp:

Don
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on February 20, 2017, 11:07:59 PM
First of all, spectacular fab job on the steering wheel. Steering knobs: back in the day all sorts of things were cast inside clear steering knobs. Along with company logos, one of the most popular were pin up girls. Now, your steering knob is a very accurate representation, however, (don't hate me) the beautifully shaped "handle" needs to spin on it's mounting pin  8). Just saying. Really Kim, great job.

Cletus
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: crueby on February 21, 2017, 12:25:57 AM
I love the steering wheel - perfect timing, since I need to make one like it for my log hauler. Basically the same but without the bend in the spokes.

Bookmarking this one....
 :atcomputer:
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on February 21, 2017, 12:45:37 AM
Thanks Dave, Bill, Don, Cletus, and Chris,
I appreciate the comments.

Thank you for the explanation Eric, guess I'm just not familiar enough with big equipment that needs a steering knob to know these details!  ;)
Yeah, I can see that.  But this knob won't spin  :Lol:

Chris, I have no doubt that the steering wheel you make for your log hauler will put mine to shame.  Luckily, nobody will probably ever see them together, so they'll never know just how marginal my fabrication skills are.  But thank you :)

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on February 21, 2017, 12:56:31 AM
Another fun day in the shop, thanks to President’s day!  Got to love 3 day weekends  :ThumbsUp:

To finish up the steering, I need to attach the chains between the Steering Chain Roller and the Front Axle.  I’m all set on the Chain Roller side, so I’ll attack the Front Axle connection, which is just a simple band with a loop to connect the chain to.

To make the band, I used 3/8” brass rod, drilled it to “N” which is just under 0.300”.  I did some careful measuring to come up with this value for the inner diameter of the band and this turned out to be pretty close.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/027a-SteeringCompleted-01-DSC_2494.JPG)

I parted off two 1/4" lengths to make the two bands.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/027a-SteeringCompleted-02-DSC_2498.JPG)

These bands are going to slide onto the tapered part of the front axle.  And since the taper isn’t EXACTLY the same on both side (it’s close, but not exact, apparently :)) I had to adjust the inner diameter of the bands just a bit to get them to line up in the same place.  I did this adjusting by putting a tapered reamer in my drill press and sliding the band on to ream out one end a tad. I used the vicegrips VERY CAREFULLY to avoid crushing or marring the ring.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/027a-SteeringCompleted-03-DSC_2499.JPG)

After some trial and error, I got them to rest symmetrically on the axle.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/027a-SteeringCompleted-04-DSC_2503.JPG)

Next, I took the bands to the mill, and made a 1/32” groove in them – this was the right width for the little brass rings I made.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/027a-SteeringCompleted-05-DSC_2507.JPG)

And here it is with the brass ring placed in the groove.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/027a-SteeringCompleted-06-DSC_2508.JPG)

Then we were off to the soldering station where I fried these little suckers into submission.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/027a-SteeringCompleted-07-DSC_2511.JPG)

And after a modicum of cleanup, the Steering Chain Collars are fairly presentable :)
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/027a-SteeringCompleted-08-DSC_2522.JPG)

I need to make a couple more rings so I can connect the chain to the Steering Chain Roller. This is the same procedure I used for the other little rings I made (but never showed you).  I have a cool set of pliers that are like a tapered mandrel.  I pick the appropriate place on the pliers, and wrap a wind of wire on them, like so:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/027a-SteeringCompleted-09-DSC_2515.JPG)

Then, with a nice sharp pair of side cutters, I cut both wires at once.  If you’re doing a LOT of rings, you can so a long spiral and just cut your way through them, making many rings at once.  But for that to be effective, you have to have to have a straight mandrel, not the tapered one like I’m using here.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/027a-SteeringCompleted-10-DSC_2521.JPG)

I took one of the rings I made, slipped it onto the last link of chain, used little pliers to close it up, and then soldered it closed.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/027a-SteeringCompleted-11-DSC_2524.JPG)

And here are the two chain assemblies, all ready to be installed on the tractor.  Note the little extension springs – these are to take up slack on the chain as the wheels bounce around on the ground (or so Rudy tells me :)).
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/027a-SteeringCompleted-12-DSC_2526.JPG)

Then, after some careful assembling (and some careful re-assembling when I discovered I was wrapping the chains backwards) I have the completed steering mechanism! :)

Here’s the underside of the Steering Chain Roller:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/027a-SteeringCompleted-13-DSC_2529.JPG)

The Front axle:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/027a-SteeringCompleted-14-DSC_2531.JPG)

And the whole thing!
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/027a-SteeringCompleted-15-DSC_2532.JPG)

And dog-gone if it doesn’t just work! You turn the steering wheel and the front wheels turn!  In the correct direction even!  :cartwheel:
I could hardly be more excited!  My wife tried her hardest to be impressed. But really!  This is so cool!  :cartwheel: :pinkelephant: :cartwheel:

Thanks for checking in,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on February 21, 2017, 01:03:23 AM
Yes ....VERY cool and well done too. But I'm waiting now to see you put the pin up girl in the steering knob  :lolb: But even without that I am most impressed!!! Oh...and not all of us got the day off  >:(

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on February 21, 2017, 01:24:04 AM
Thank's Bill,
And I'm very sorry you didn't get the day off.  I'll be working late every night this week to make up for a day off, but hey, at least I got to play today! :)
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Flyboy Jim on February 21, 2017, 03:09:14 AM
Nice fabrication work, Kim.

It's interesting to see this steering lash-up and think about it being "state of the art" back in the day. As I learn more and more, I'm looking forward to going to the Brooks Steam-up again next summer.

Jim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on February 21, 2017, 05:06:55 AM
Yes, it is interesting!  No power steering here! :)
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: 90LX_Notch on February 21, 2017, 11:19:49 AM
"I could hardly be more excited!  My wife tried her hardest to be impressed. But really!  This is so cool!"

I feel your pain Kim.  I go through the same thing with my wife.

The tractor is really looking nice.

-Bob
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on February 21, 2017, 12:22:42 PM
Great job on the steering chains. The family shot looks awesome.

Cletus
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: fumopuc on February 21, 2017, 03:12:09 PM
Hi Kim, it looks like, that soldering is the same standard prozess in your shop as drilling a hole.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Don1966 on February 21, 2017, 10:26:12 PM
That is sweet, nice work Kim. The family shot is awesome.


Don
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Dave Otto on February 22, 2017, 12:53:08 AM
Hey Kim,

The whole steering system turned out great, very nice work!
It is nice to have a big block of uninterrupted shop time; I also had the the pleasure of Monday off work.

I too miss the GEARS show each year; maybe we can meet up at the Brooks Steam Up sometime.


Dave
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Johnmcc69 on February 22, 2017, 02:43:41 AM
Geez Kim! Looks like you're on a "Roll".  ;D

 What's next?

 John
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on February 23, 2017, 05:53:46 AM
Thank you to all for the kind comments!  I always find them so encouraging!

What's up next?  Good question.  I think that I might start the boiler next.  That's going to be an interesting project!  :o

Undoubtedly I'll need much advise from the forum as I move through this exercise!
Always something for me to look forward to on this build!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on February 26, 2017, 01:52:36 AM
What’s up next?  Not the boiler!  I’m pretty much following the order of Rudy’s write up in his book, and I was way wrong.  The boiler is one of the last thing I’ll be doing!  The next thing up is more items that attach to the Boiler Casing, like the Smoke Box Door, and the Smoke Stack.

But first! I spent some time reassembling things to get it back where it was before I did the steering.  And to do that, I had to create some 1/8” spacers (the 1/16” spacers didn’t leave enough room for the steering column).

Here’s the family shot, with the steering and gear train in place:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/028a-SmokeStack-01-DSC_2537.JPG)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/028a-SmokeStack-02-DSC_2547.JPG)


Next up is supposed to be the Smoke Box Door, but I couldn’t find the steel I thought I had for that :(  So I’m going to have to order some steel before I can do that.

So, it’s on to the Smoke Stack!  Here’s what I’m trying to do.  Notice that it doesn't give a dimension for the height of the smoke stack!  :o  It looks to be about 3" to me, based on the proportions of the drawing, so I'll probalby go with that unless someone else has a better suggestion?
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/028a-SmokeStack-03-DSC_2548.JPG)

I’m going to make the Smoke Stack in multiple pieces.  I have some 3/4" brass tube for the main part of the stack, and I’ll make the decorative ring at the top, the base, and the flange, all seperately, then solder them together toward the end.

I’m going to start with the decorative ring.  And to do this, I’ve decided to make a little form tool for the bead.  Starting with a length of W-1 tool steel, I cut a nice flat into one end.  I’m going to leave it with zero rake since this is going to be used on brass, and I’ve heard that’s not a bad thing for brass.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/028a-SmokeStack-04-DSC_2550.JPG)

Then I tip it up ~10 degrees and cut some relief in the tool.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/028a-SmokeStack-05-DSC_2552.JPG)

And staying at this exact angle, I cut half of a 1/8” circle in the tool using a 1/8” end mill.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/028a-SmokeStack-06-DSC_2553.JPG)

After heat treating it, then tempering it, I set it up on the lathe with some 1” brass and have it do its thing.  It worked pretty well.  I went slow and careful, and it chattered a bit, but it worked!  Next time I’m going to take of those silly rounded edges from the round tool steel I used. It caused me some grief, but I worked around it.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/028a-SmokeStack-07-DSC_2558.JPG)

Next I drilled a 1/2” hole in the end of the brass.  I don’t have any 3/4" bits that I trust for size accuracy, so I just bored it out to 3/4".  And that went quite well.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/028a-SmokeStack-08-DSC_2561.JPG)

Checking for the final fit on the 3/4" brass tube:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/028a-SmokeStack-09-DSC_2562.JPG)

And now, cutting off the ring:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/028a-SmokeStack-10-DSC_2565.JPG)

And here’s the top ring in place!
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/028a-SmokeStack-11-DSC_2566.JPG)

Next time I’ll see if I can finish up the smoke stack.

Thanks for stopping by!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 26, 2017, 02:13:20 AM
Nice! Very nice!

I'm betting you're feeling pretty darn good about that operation.  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: 90LX_Notch on February 26, 2017, 02:24:50 AM
That form tool really worked well Kim.

-Bob
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Flyboy Jim on February 26, 2017, 04:36:00 AM
That looks good, Kim.  :ThumbsUp:

If you get a chance would you elaborate on just what you did for the hardening and tempering of the W1 tool steel? I've got some of that to do on my P & W build. After doing some reading, I've discovered that the W1 can be water quenched. Reading about hardening and tempering, the write-ups talk about heating to some temperature, for a certain amount of time based on thickness, then another temp. for so long, then cooling to some temp for so long, and on and on. Not something that most of us could do.  :wallbang:

Thanks, Jim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on February 26, 2017, 06:45:23 AM
Thank you Zee, Bob, and Jim,

Yes, I was quite pleased with the form tool!

Jim, about heat treating, I'm hardly an expert, but the process I used is what I've learned from the good folks on this forum! :)  If you go back to post #24, I talk a bit about the process I used for heat treating and tempering.  Dave, Jason and several other people give some really good advice there too (starting around post #21 or so).

Here's a link to post #24 of this thread: http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,5264.msg101318.html#msg101318 (http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,5264.msg101318.html#msg101318)

And in post #27, I've got a link to a 'color table' that maps the color of hot steel to the temperature.  Here's the link again just to keep it all in one place: http://www.smex.net.au/reference/SteelColours02.php (http://www.smex.net.au/reference/SteelColours02.php)

In summary, I heat the part with my torch to a nice bright "cherry red" for a while (I use the magnet trick if the part is small enough) then quench in water (that is, for W-1 anyway).  Then I polish up the piece to a nice shiny silver so I can see the color change, then temper it by trying to slowly bring up the temp till I see the "light straw" color, and then let the part cool slowly.

The heat treating isn't too bad. It's the tempering that I struggle with.  I try to heat it up slowly, but it looks like nothing is happening, then all of a sudden it jumps past the straw color (low 400's Fahrenheit) to the purples and blues (mid 500's).  But I'm getting better.  I'm sure using a torch isn't as good as using a heat treating oven. But I don't have one of those.  And I have a torch! :)

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: scc on February 26, 2017, 11:35:20 AM
Hi Kim,        I've been busy recently and missed a lot of Forum activity.    My word! you have been busy. This is a great project and I am very impressed.....can't wait to see it in steam :cartwheel: :cartwheel:      Regards     Terry
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Flyboy Jim on February 26, 2017, 02:49:11 PM
Thank you Zee, Bob, and Jim,

Yes, I was quite pleased with the form tool!

Jim, about heat treating, I'm hardly an expert, but the process I used is what I've learned from the good folks on this forum! :)  If you go back to post #24, I talk a bit about the process I used for heat treating and tempering.  Dave, Jason and several other people give some really good advice there too (starting around post #21 or so).

Here's a link to post #24 of this thread: http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,5264.msg101318.html#msg101318 (http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,5264.msg101318.html#msg101318)

And in post #27, I've got a link to a 'color table' that maps the color of hot steel to the temperature.  Here's the link again just to keep it all in one place: http://www.smex.net.au/reference/SteelColours02.php (http://www.smex.net.au/reference/SteelColours02.php)

In summary, I heat the part with my torch to a nice bright "cherry red" for a while (I use the magnet trick if the part is small enough) then quench in water (that is, for W-1 anyway).  Then I polish up the piece to a nice shiny silver so I can see the color change, then temper it by trying to slowly bring up the temp till I see the "light straw" color, and then let the part cool slowly.

The heat treating isn't too bad. It's the tempering that I struggle with.  I try to heat it up slowly, but it looks like nothing is happening, then all of a sudden it jumps past the straw color (low 400's Fahrenheit) to the purples and blues (mid 500's).  But I'm getting better.  I'm sure using a torch isn't as good as using a heat treating oven. But I don't have one of those.  And I have a torch! :)

Kim

Thanks Kim,

Got the color able printed out. Your and other related posts were very helpful..........time to give it a go.

I also enjoyed reading about your riveting journey.

Jim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on February 26, 2017, 03:18:58 PM
Thanks Terry!  Sorry you were gone so long. Hope you still had some time to play in your shop and make some swarf!

Got the color able printed out. Your and other related posts were very helpful..........time to give it a go.

I also enjoyed reading about your riveting journey.

Jim, I also found that discussion very helpful! :)  As I've said before, most of what I know about machining and metal work, I've learned from the generous people on this forum!

There have been so many fun journeys with this build!  Riveting, sheet metal work in general, soldering, gear cutting, etc.  And so many more to go! (like the Boiler!  :o) I'm having a blast, even if I'm moving at a glaciers pace. :ROFL:

Thanks,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 26, 2017, 03:55:21 PM
I'm having a blast, even if I'm moving at a glaciers pace. :ROFL:

But you're moving.  :ThumbsUp: And having a blast.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on March 12, 2017, 01:03:28 AM
Thanks Zee! True enough on the moving and blast having :)


Continuing on with the smokestack, next I worked on the base. The first piece is a 1/2" long tube for the stack to sit in, and the second piece will be the mounting flange.

The base starts as a 1” piece of brass round bar, bored out to 3/4" for a slip fit on the smokestack tube.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/028b-SmokeStack-01-DSC_2568.JPG)

Then taking it down to the specified 15/16” OD:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/028b-SmokeStack-02-DSC_2572.JPG)

And parting off at 1/2".
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/028b-SmokeStack-03-DSC_2574.JPG)

I also cut off the extra 1/8” bit to use as a spacer here, to help hold the base in place so I could shape it with the boring head.  This curve was cut to the radius of the boiler casing, plus 1/16” for the base flange (1 1/4").
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/028b-SmokeStack-04-DSC_2576.JPG)

Here is the smokestack family shot so far:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/028b-SmokeStack-05-DSC_2580.JPG)

Next I took the smoke stack tube, and curved one end of it the same way, only the radius here was exactly that of the boiler casing (1 3/16”)
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/028b-SmokeStack-06-DSC_2582.JPG)

Making the flange was more complicated (for me anyway).  I took a 1/16” piece of brass, cut it to approximate length. After annealing it, I used an extra piece of the boiler casing as a form and pounded it around that to get its shape.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/028b-SmokeStack-07-DSC_2590.JPG)

Then I put it in the mill and bored out a 3/4" hole, just the size of the smokestack tube.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/028b-SmokeStack-08-DSC_2592.JPG)

And this is how it should look.  Bottom side:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/028b-SmokeStack-09-DSC_2596.JPG)

Top side:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/028b-SmokeStack-10-DSC_2599.JPG)

The last thing I wanted to do before I soldered it all together was to drill the mounting holes in the flange.  I measured carefully, from the inside of the smokestack hole.  My slightly bizarre setup here is to make the holes perpendicular to the radius of the flange.  It may not be exact, but its pretty close!
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/028b-SmokeStack-11-DSC_2601.JPG)

Then we’re off to the brazing station.  Clean up the parts, flux them up, and put little bits of silver solder around at strategic locations.  All ready for the heat.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/028b-SmokeStack-12-DSC_2605.JPG)

I was a little worried about this operation – I’ve done some silver soldering, but not enough to give me much confidence!  But, armed with what little experience I have and the excellent tutoring from you all, I launched in like someone who has no better sense.  And it came out pretty good!  I didn’t scorch the parts as bad as I have in the past, and it actually came out tolerably well :)
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/028b-SmokeStack-13-DSC_2607.JPG)

I think I could have used a bit more solder in some of the lower sections – I think the solder I had there slid off when the flux started to boil.  But I’m not going to mess with it at this point.  That base is quite solid :)

After some pickling and cleanup, I put the smokestack in a 3/4" collet, and worked over the flange, putting a radius on it and taking it down to the 1 1/2" as specified.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/028b-SmokeStack-14-DSC_2610.JPG)

The last part is to attach the decorative ring at the top.  I didn’t do this at the same time as the base because I wanted to be able to turn the base in the lathe I I felt it would be a LOT easier to hold without the ring!

And here’s the ‘after’ shot of the silver soldering process:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/028b-SmokeStack-15-DSC_2612.JPG)

And with a first round of clean-up, it looks pretty good!  Looking at the picture I can see several places that need some additional TLC.  But all in all, I’m quite pleased!
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/028b-SmokeStack-16-DSC_2613.JPG)

And I just couldn’t stop today without taking a picture of the smokestack sitting in its intended spot:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/028b-SmokeStack-17-DSC_2618.JPG)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/028b-SmokeStack-18-DSC_2620.JPG)

After mounting the smokestack, the next part will be the smokebox door.

Thanks for following along,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 12, 2017, 01:07:47 AM
Wow. Beautiful looking smokestack.

You gotta be sitting there with a smile on your face.

I always find boring operations pretty interesting too.
I mean operations with a boring bar are pretty interesting.

Sigh.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on March 12, 2017, 01:14:18 AM
That came out just great Kim. As always, great photos and write up as well. Nice to see an update on the traction engine!!

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Dave Otto on March 12, 2017, 01:18:06 AM
The smokestack turned out very nice Kim!  :ThumbsUp:

Dave
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: 90LX_Notch on March 12, 2017, 01:36:44 AM
Kim that stack did come out beautiful.  Great work.

-Bob
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on March 12, 2017, 01:56:03 AM
Thanks Zee, Bill, Dave, and Bob,

Yes, I'm sitting pretty happy here right now :)

Though looking at that gap, I'm wondering if I should try to do a little more soldering there - try to fill it in a bit?  Or is that likely to end in tears and me throwing what had been perfectly passable smokestack across the shop because I melted it into a heap of slag?
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/028b-SmokeStack-19-DSC_2618_annotated.jpg)

These are things I can think about till my next shop time...
Kim

Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: crueby on March 12, 2017, 02:20:09 AM
Silver solder is not good at filling gaps like soft solder is, I'd leave it and stay happy!
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on March 12, 2017, 02:36:23 AM
I agree with Chris, and since that area isn't open into the smokebox, its just that small area of fillet missing. Its not like smoke will be coming out of an unwanted area. This engine has so many focal points, I think even you will stop noticing this small gap shortly.

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on March 12, 2017, 05:28:24 AM
Thanks for the experienced advice Chris & Bill,
Sounds like I should just leave it alone. As you said, it won't cause a functional issue, and its certainly not a structural problem.  I just want to get better enough at this, that by the time I get to silver soldering the boiler that I don't screw it up too bad!

Thanks for the advice,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Steamer5 on March 12, 2017, 11:30:55 AM
Hi Kim,
 The stack looks the part! You should be very happy with that, I know I would. Question is are you going to paint it? If so the old adage, paint covers a bunch of sins ...... just putting it out there...

Hope my  :popcorn: field survived today's downpour, it's looking like it's going to be needed over winter!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: wagnmkr on March 12, 2017, 12:22:51 PM
I don't think that is worth worrying about. As you said, you could make it much worse by trying to make it better. I wish my quality was as good.

Tom
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on March 12, 2017, 02:28:23 PM
Thanks for the input Kerrin and Tom,

Question is are you going to paint it? If so the old adage, paint covers a bunch of sins ...... just putting it out there...

Hope my  :popcorn: field survived today's downpour, it's looking like it's going to be needed over winter!
Yes, I am planning to  paint the tractor, but I want to leave some of the pretty brass showing.  So I'm not sure yet.  Hadn't thought that far about what specific pieces I'll paint.  Maybe this will dictate the paint scheme I choose :)

Yes, hope your field comes out OK.  You guys have been having a wet summer down under?

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Don1966 on March 12, 2017, 02:41:15 PM
Nice work Kim and the smokestack looks great. Yeah I wouldn't worry to much about the little spot. Just clean her up good and it won't be noticed. I have done some reflow, but like Chris said silver solder doesn't  cooperate to much filling gaps unless the heat is just right.

Don
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on March 12, 2017, 02:42:25 PM
Thanks Don,
Appreciate the advice!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: scc on March 14, 2017, 10:11:39 PM
As has been said, that smokestack (chimney) has turned out really well. Great pics as usual :ThumbsUp:                    Terry
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Steamer5 on March 15, 2017, 02:25:46 AM
Hi Kim,
 We're still waiting for summer! Haven't had many days were we've hit 25C in 3 months. Our council brought in water restriction 1 January, they end 31 March. R has only hand watered the garden 3 or 4 times,  seem to only go 5 to 10 days without some form of rain, even then we may have had a sprinkle overnight!
Still we don't have inches or more of snow!

Keep up the good work! Went past the  :popcorn: field yesterday & it's still growing well!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on March 19, 2017, 01:24:16 AM
Kerrin,
Glad the popcorn is coming along well!  You're going to need a lot of that to keep up with all the builds going on right now!

Terry,
So, you call it a Chimney rather than a Smoke Stack?  To me, a chimney sounds like something that is stationary, but I don't really know.  Wonder if it is a geographical terminology difference?
Likely, I will continue to call it a smoke stack, since that is what the plans say.  But I'd love to hear what others think the correct terminology is.

-------

In this installment, I finish up the Smoke Stack (or the Chimney?) and start off on the door to the Smoke Box.

All I had left for the Smoke Stack was mounting it on the Boiler Casing. So, I lined it all up, very carefully and transferred the hole locations to the Boiler Casing.  Then I removed all removable parts from the Boiler Casing and mounted it on the mill where I drilled, and tapped for 2-56.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/029a-SmokeBoxDoor-1-DSC_2624.JPG)

With that done, I polished up the Smoke Stack and attached it with four 2-56 bolts.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/029a-SmokeBoxDoor-2-DSC_2629.JPG)

I think it looks pretty good there :)
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/029a-SmokeBoxDoor-3-DSC_2635.JPG)

The Smoke Box Door started as a piece of 1/4" 1018 steel.  I needed to bring it down to only 5/32” in width.  But before I started to shave down the width, I attempted some ‘stress relief’ by heating the steel up to nice red hot for a while, then letting it cool slowly to room temperature.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/029a-SmokeBoxDoor-4-DSC_2639.JPG)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/029a-SmokeBoxDoor-5-DSC_2643.JPG)

While it was cooling, I started on a radius tool to use on the outside edge of the door. I needed a 3/32” radius.

I used a length of 3/8” W-1, since that is what I had available.  I squared up one end, holding it in a 5C collet block (well, I only squared up 3 sides, I didn’t bother with the bottom).  Then I tipped it up by 10 degrees and cut a relief angle along the front.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/029a-SmokeBoxDoor-6-DSC_2649.JPG)

Leaving it tipped at 10 degrees, I then rotated it by about the same to provide some relief in the side direction. And, with a 3/16” end mill I formed the 3/32” radius, like so:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/029a-SmokeBoxDoor-7-DSC_2650.JPG)

I didn’t get any pictures of this, but I also cut a flat on the bottom and top of the radius tool, to help it sit well in the tool holder, and then heat treated & tempered the business end of the tool.

By this time (must have been several hours later) the stress relieved steel was quite cool.  And the stress relieving process had warped the steel  – a bit of a potato-chip shape.  But that was the point, right?  By relieving the internal stresses now, you release that stress now while you still have time to deal with any warpage.  So I’m claiming that my stress-relieving process did its job!  :D

I mounted the steel in the mill and shaved off one side to make it flat.  There was a 25-30 thou difference in height across that face.  Then I flipped it over and did the same to the other side.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/029a-SmokeBoxDoor-8-DSC_2656.JPG)

After that process, the steel was quite flat (as tested on my layout block), and didn’t seem to be warped any more.  I still have a little more to remove to get to the desired thickness, but I’ll do that on the lathe (I think).

Finally I took a scrap piece of 2” Aluminum round bar from my scrap box, faced off one end nice and smooth in the lathe, and used LocTite to glue the steel onto this.  I’m going to try turning the steel like this.  We’ll see how that goes.  But for now, this is where I stopped, waiting for the Loctite to set.

Here it is with my Sine Vice sitting on top of it to keep them together while the Loctite sets.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/029a-SmokeBoxDoor-9-DSC_2658.JPG)

Thanks for checking in on me,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: 10KPete on March 19, 2017, 02:00:30 AM
Lookin' good Kim! That smoke duct looks just right. Very handsome.

I would strongly suggest grinding the corners of the square off and get as close as you can to the desired circle before trying to  turn it. Actually, I would have pressure chucked it...

Pete
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Flyboy Jim on March 19, 2017, 02:05:13 AM
Looks like a successful day Kim.

That's interesting how much warpage you had. Do you think some of that might have been from applying heat from one side? I remember cutting 1/8" steel with a torch when I rebuilt a steel Commercial Salmon Troller I owned. It warped like crazy. I ended up cutting the rest of it with a Sawzall using metal cutting blades.

I've sure learned a lot seeing you making your own cutting tools. Wouldn't hesitate to do it myself now.

Jim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on March 19, 2017, 04:06:03 AM
I would strongly suggest grinding the corners of the square off and get as close as you can to the desired circle before trying to  turn it. Actually, I would have pressure chucked it...
Yeah, your right - I should have knocked the corners off already!  I'll have to cogitate on how to do that now that its glued like that.
As for the pressure chuck, I considered that too, but I wanted to be able to face one side of it, and I couldn't have done that with something on both sides. (unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean by 'pressure chuck'.  I was going to put something up against the other side with the tail stock while I rounded the corners regardless.

That's interesting how much warpage you had. Do you think some of that might have been from applying heat from one side? I remember cutting 1/8" steel with a torch when I rebuilt a steel Commercial Salmon Troller I owned. It warped like crazy. I ended up cutting the rest of it with a Sawzall using metal cutting blades.

Possible, but I don't really think so, since I did turn it a couple of times while keeping it hot.  (I soaked it nice and red like that for 10 min or so based on what others have said in the past.)   Also, I've done this a couple of times WITHOUT the stress relieving step and have found that when you take metal off of one side it does that potato-chip maneuver.  Then you turn it over and try to do the other side and warps in a different way, but doesn't go back to flat, it just gets more contorted.

I believe the heating relaxes things so that the stress that was squeezed into the metal when it was formed has a chance to unwind some. Like I said, I've tried it without the heating and have had very poor experience that way. This way (heating first) has given me much more predictable results!  Others with more experience can comment here, but this is what I've found works best.

If there are better ways, I'm all ears! :)
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: 10KPete on March 19, 2017, 06:06:45 AM
Ah, face both sides, got it! Pressure chucking would not have allowed that.

The stress relief you did was just how I would do it. I love potato chips, just not metal ones...


Pete
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on March 26, 2017, 02:03:49 AM
Continuing where I left off with the Smoke Box Door...

As Pete mentioned, it would be a good idea to knock off the corners of the steel plate before I tried turning it.  So I did.  Turns out it wasn’t too hard since the aluminum stub I glued it up to, fit in the vice – just barely, but it fit!
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/029b-SmokeBoxDoor-01-DSC_2661.JPG)

Then to the lathe, to finish rounding it up.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/029b-SmokeBoxDoor-02-DSC_2664.JPG)

But!  Before I did that, I took an old scrap of steel bar and used it in the tail stock to provide additional support.  Figured this was a good idea for the interrupted cut.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/029b-SmokeBoxDoor-03-DSC_2666.JPG)

Then I made it round.  It went quite well and it never felt like it was going to come unglued.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/029b-SmokeBoxDoor-04-DSC_2668.JPG)

Then I moved the tail stock and faced off the front. I took small bites so as not to stress my glue chuck.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/029b-SmokeBoxDoor-05-DSC_2670.JPG)

Now, at the correct width, I used the round-over tool I made earlier and, well, rounded it over!
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/029b-SmokeBoxDoor-06-DSC_2673.JPG)

Using the parting tool, I turned 1/16” of the back side down to make the registration notch.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/029b-SmokeBoxDoor-07-DSC_2676.JPG)

After that, I heated up the part to get the Loctite to let go, polished it up a bit, and here it is!
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/029b-SmokeBoxDoor-08-DSC_2686.JPG)

But then my heart sank… It didn’t fit the end of the boiler casing!  I was sure I’d measured it very carefully, but when I checked again, it was 10 thou over-sized, and consequently, wouldn’t fit where it was supposed to :(
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/029b-SmokeBoxDoor-09-DSC_2690.JPG)

That was the end of last Sunday’s shop session.  And I spent the week thinking about how to get that down to size so it’d fit.  Of course, I didn’t find this till I’d taken it off the glue chuck, and there was NO WAY I’d ever get it centered again.  I could start over, but that seemed sad and painful.

I came up with a couple of options, my first one being to use some double sticky tape to make a feeble glue chuck, but since it wouldn’t truly be centered, I’d thought maybe I could turn it slow-ish and use a file to take down 10 thousandths.  And that’s precisely what I did.  And it worked :)
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/029b-SmokeBoxDoor-10-DSC_2694.JPG)

And here we go – fits nicely now!
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/029b-SmokeBoxDoor-11-DSC_2697.JPG)

To complete the Smoke Box Door I have to make some fake hinges, and a clip to hold it in place.  So, I cut the sheet metal to make the parts, and decided to bring it to width on the mill, like so:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/029b-SmokeBoxDoor-12-DSC_2699.JPG)

I used a 1/32” thin parallel in the setup here, and since 22Ga sheetmetal is just a hair under 1/32”, the vice didn’t quite clamp on the steel.  So I used some pieces of double stick tape (where I never peeled off the backing on the other side) to add just a smidge of width to the part so it would stay in place, and it worked like a charm.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/029b-SmokeBoxDoor-13-DSC_2701.JPG)

With the strips cut to width, I had to make a loop to connect to the fake hinge rod. I struggled with how to do this, but in the end used the vice, a hammer, and a nail (see it in the background there) to form the loops.  Probably not the best way, but it worked.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/029b-SmokeBoxDoor-14-DSC_2703.JPG)

Then I drilled holes for the rivets:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/029b-SmokeBoxDoor-15-DSC_2708.JPG)

Rounded the ends, and soldered them both to a 1” piece of brass as the fake hinge pin:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/029b-SmokeBoxDoor-16-DSC_2715.JPG)

Next, I bent the piece for the snap clip:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/029b-SmokeBoxDoor-19-DSC_2717.JPG)

And finally, I had to finish up the door itself.  The door had the basic shape, but I needed to drill the rivet holes and take a little sliver out of the bottom of the registration circle to allow room for a screw that will eventually be holding in the boiler.

So I get it setup on the mill and take out about 1/8” along the bottom of the registration portion: (http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/029b-SmokeBoxDoor-17-DSC_2710.JPG)

Then I drilled all the rivet holes (I’d carefully marked the locations earlier).
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/029b-SmokeBoxDoor-18-DSC_2711.JPG)

And here is the happy Smoke Door family shot, before being assembled. (http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/029b-SmokeBoxDoor-20-DSC_2721.JPG)

Some fun time with the rivet punches later, and here it is, fully assembeled:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/029b-SmokeBoxDoor-21-DSC_2723.JPG)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/029b-SmokeBoxDoor-22-DSC_2724.JPG)

Sadly, I made some ugly dings on the door with the anvil.  I’m not exactly sure what I’m doing to make that happen.  Maybe those are the times that the work piece isn’t exactly level?  I’m not sure.  I’ll be painting this part I believe, but I’d sure like to gain the skill of being able to rivet things without leaving those ugly marks :(


Regardless, here is the completed door, snapped into place:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/029b-SmokeBoxDoor-23-DSC_2728.JPG)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/029b-SmokeBoxDoor-24-DSC_2731.JPG)

And that’s it for the Smoke Door.

I found that little subassembly harder than it looked!  Well, maybe not hard, but just a lot of fidgety little steps that made it take a lot longer than I’d imagined!

Thanks for checking in,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: 10KPete on March 26, 2017, 03:29:25 AM
Beautiful!! Everything done very well. Pressure chucking is a valuable technique in the tool box and can allow all manner of jobs to be done easily. And as you found out, you don't need to leave any marks on the part.

I'm really excited about seeing this little beauty run!

Pete
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Steamer5 on March 26, 2017, 06:17:14 AM
Hi Kim,
 Nice progress, good recovery on the over size spigot! The end result looks the business!

As an idea to recenter the door, maybe gripping it between your aluminum spigot & the steel plug in the tail stock with just enough pinch to hold firmly, then using a nudger & apply light pressure to center it up, check with a dti repeat if required.

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Jo on March 26, 2017, 09:02:45 AM
Nice save Kim, its so annoying when you take something down to find it is still oversized  :facepalm:

An alternative to hand filing would have been to use the four jaw independent to centre up the plate again to let you turn it down, being that it is a smoke box door you could get away with it being slightly off centre and no one would know  ;) .

Jo
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: vcutajar on March 26, 2017, 10:45:29 AM
Beautiful work Kim and nice save.

Vince
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: 90LX_Notch on March 26, 2017, 12:55:00 PM
Nice save Kim.   The wrap on the hinges really came out nice and the whole door looks great.

-Bob
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 26, 2017, 01:35:45 PM
Good parts.
Good save.
Good progress.
Good fun.

Good going!  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on March 26, 2017, 03:21:42 PM
Thank you all for the encouraging comments!

Those are some great ideas on ways to center up a piece like this, with literally nothing to hold on to! This is one of the great things about our forum; you can learn so many new, good ways to do things!  Not only how to do it right, but how to RECOVER when I screw up :)  And how to do things safely.  (I also really appreciate THAT!).

Thanks you for the help and encouragement!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Don1966 on March 27, 2017, 02:51:33 PM
Nice work Kim all looks great...... :ThumbsUp:


Don
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: scc on March 27, 2017, 08:48:46 PM
Excellent as usual Kim :ThumbsUp:                     Terry
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: zeeprogrammer on March 27, 2017, 11:06:03 PM
And how to do things safely.

Good reminder!  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on March 28, 2017, 05:29:20 AM
Thanks Don and Terry,
And yes, with you Zee!  Safety is important!  I'd like to be around for a while (with all my limbs and digits) to make more swarf!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on March 28, 2017, 12:07:11 PM
That looks really nice Kim. Its definitely better to be oversized than undersized huh?? ;)

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on March 29, 2017, 05:58:24 AM
That looks really nice Kim. Its definitely better to be oversized than undersized huh?? ;)

Bill
No doubt!  At least I have a fighting chance then!  :ROFL:

Thanks Bill!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on April 09, 2017, 12:48:20 AM
Hi Everyone,

I did some work last weekend, but never got a chance to upload the pics.  So I’ll combine last week’s update with this week’s update to make one SUPER update!  Although, looking at it you’ll realize that in two weekends, I accomplish half of what most of you do in any given single session.  Ah well, it is what it is! :)

Last week, I started on the Cylinder.  One part! How hard can it be, right?  Well, I’m finding it a LOT of work!

The cylinder is specified to be bronze, so for this project I ordered some 1” bronze rod.  Nice stuff to machine!

I used the 3 Jaw chuck here for several reasons.  First, my 1” 5C collet does not allow 1” stock to feed through.  There are internal threads at the back of the collet that make it so you can’t pass 1” stock through.  This has caught me several times.  However, there’s another reason – the Bronze rod comes significantly larger than the specified size – several ten’s of thousandths. So it won’t even FIT in the 1” 5C collet!

You can see that issue pretty clearly here: this is after I've turned the bronze down to 1” and you can see a pretty substantial shoulder there!
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/030a-Cylinder-01-DSC_2735.JPG)

After bring it down to 1”, I drilled a hole of about 3/8”.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/030a-Cylinder-02-DSC_2738.JPG)

And bored it out to just under 1/2".
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/030a-Cylinder-03-DSC_2739.JPG)

Then reamed it to 1/2”.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/030a-Cylinder-04-DSC_2742.JPG)

And cut it off slightly over sized.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/030a-Cylinder-05-DSC_2745.JPG)

Then flipping it around in the chuck, I faced it off to the specified width of 1 1/16”.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/030a-Cylinder-06-DSC_2747.JPG)

To make the face for the steam chest, I cut a small slab out of the round bronze stock, like so:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/030a-Cylinder-07-DSC_2752.JPG)

And removed the slab from the parent stock using the horizontal band saw.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/030a-Cylinder-08-DSC_2755.JPG)

With the small slab free, I squared it up on the mill, and shaved it down to size on all six sides.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/030a-Cylinder-09-DSC_2758.JPG)

And this was where I ended last Saturday! Two nice pieces of bronze, destined to be one!
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/030a-Cylinder-10-DSC_2760.JPG)

On Sunday, I calculated how much of the cylinder needed to be shaved away to make the steam chest base fit and then whittled it off.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/030a-Cylinder-11-DSC_2763.JPG)

To keep the little rectangle of bronze in place during soldering, I decided to put some brass pins in.  I used a bunch of small clamps and scrap packing material to hold the two parts together for drilling:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/030a-Cylinder-12-DSC_2766.JPG)

I was using 3/32” rod, and chose to use a 3/32” drill. I knew this would make a slightly oversized hole, but I needed the bronze piece to be able to drop down in place using gravity.  If the hole was too tight of a fit, it wouldn’t drop when the solder melted.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/030a-Cylinder-13-DSC_2770.JPG)

My test fit looked pretty good to me – just a little loose.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/030a-Cylinder-14-DSC_2772.JPG)

Here’s all the pieces ready for soldering.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/030a-Cylinder-15-DSC_2774.JPG)

Now cleaned, fluxed and with several bits of hard solder in place between the joint.  I also set the part up on some fire bricks in a way that allowed me to get to all sides of the part so I could heat it not just from the top and sides, but from inside the bore too.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/030a-Cylinder-16-DSC_2777.JPG)

And here we are, post soldering.  It went just as I hoped it would!  As the parts started to turn a gentle, deep red, the bronze rectangle just ‘dropped’ into place – first on one side, then on the other.  You can see where I kept the flame in one place too long and melted one of the 3/32” pins.  But that part will be removed, and the rest of it turned out unscathed!
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/030a-Cylinder-17-DSC_2778.JPG)

After some pickling and cleanup, I put it in the mill to remove the brass pins. Then I took a very light skim across the steam chest area to guarantee that it was completely flat.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/030a-Cylinder-18-DSC_2783.JPG)

Now we have the basic cylinder shape!  One thing I got out of order – I should have done the soldering BEFORE I reamed the 1/2” bore.  The soldering really left a nasty ripply crust on everything inside.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/030a-Cylinder-19-DSC_2790.JPG)

I tried using the 1/2" reamer on the boar again, but it didn’t do anything.  I’m going to have to hone it out some.  Luckily, the 1/2" bronze I got for the piston is also oversized (like by 40+ thousandths).  So I’ll do a little honing and make the piston to fit.

Thus ended last Sunday.

Now, we’re up to today!

During the week I’d ordered a 1/2" Flex Hone from Amazon.  $10 and it was shipped to my door the next day (it was supposed to be 2 day shipping, but  it only took a day!).  I used this Flex Hone to clean up the inside of the cylinder.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/030a-Cylinder-20-DSC_2794.JPG)

I actually held the hone by hand – well, I held the drill check by hand :)  That little wire handle looked like it would be hard to hold, and like it could really hurt if it got away from me!  The Flex hone worked very well.  I followed the instructions on the back of the package and it just worked.

The bore is now 0.503”, which isn’t going to be a problem in the slightest :)  And more importantly, I was able to keep it consistent all the way through the bore (or at least, consistent within the tolerances that I can measure it to; +/- 1/2 Thousandths.)

After working through that issue, I worked on the steam passages.  Using math and the DRO, I drilled 0.055” holes in line for the steam ports, and 7/64” holes for the exhaust port.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/030a-Cylinder-21-DSC_2799.JPG)

Then I opened up the exhaust port with a 1/8” 2 flute end mill:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/030a-Cylinder-22-DSC_2802.JPG)

And did the same for the steam ports using 1/16" mill:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/030a-Cylinder-23-DSC_2806.JPG)

And as my final step of the day, I drilled and tapped the holes to hold the steam chest in place.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/030a-Cylinder-24-DSC_2807.JPG)

That brings me to the end of my shop session today!  Sorry for how long this was.  But even with the length, I didn’t get that far. I still have to drill the rest of the steam passages and the holes for the cylinder drains.

Thanks for checking in!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 09, 2017, 12:56:27 AM
Good post. Very interesting as well as helpful.

 :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on April 09, 2017, 01:02:30 AM
Thank you Zee! :)
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Dave Otto on April 09, 2017, 01:25:03 AM
Hey Kim

Don't worry about the length of your post, I enjoy all the steps as I'm sure others do too.
The cylinder is looking great!

Dave
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on April 09, 2017, 01:44:59 AM
Looks like you got a lot done to me Kim. All I got done today was two simple little parts and even they aren't totally finished :)

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on April 09, 2017, 02:23:43 AM
Thanks Dave and Bill,
Thank you for the kind comments and for following along!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Flyboy Jim on April 09, 2017, 03:04:54 AM
Good progress and good documentation Kim.  :ThumbsUp:

Jim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on April 09, 2017, 06:33:14 AM
Thanks Jim :)
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Don1966 on April 09, 2017, 04:47:58 PM
Looks great Kim and time is unimportant with our projects. As for the length of the thread make it as long as you want. It's the end results that count. The more you solder the better your skills will be, as you notice to much heat can cause problems. Sometimes it's hard to keep your mind set on moving the torch in and out when soldering but it will come and you will be able to control the heat a lot better...... :ThumbsUp: good results bud!

Don
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: fumopuc on April 09, 2017, 07:12:00 PM
Hi Kim, good to see some more progress.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on April 09, 2017, 11:57:27 PM
Thanks Don and Achim,

I've learned everything I know about silver soldering from watching you guys, and I'm learning more everyday!
Thanks for your help, and thanks for following along.
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on April 23, 2017, 01:14:16 AM
With last weekend being Easter, I didn’t get any shop time – all family time, which was a great thing!  But it makes progress even slower than normal :)

Today, I picked up where I left off with the Cylinder; drilling the steam passages.  I started with the exhaust passage. I drilled that, then drilled and tapped two 2-56 mounting holes for the exhaust flange.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/031a-SteamChest-1-DSC_2811.JPG)

And, since I’d now defined the bottom side of the cylinder (by drilling the exhaust hole) I could drill and tap 4-40 holes for the Condensate Release Valves.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/031a-SteamChest-2-DSC_2814.JPG)

Moving to the ends, I drilled a passage for the Condensate, and the incoming steam.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/031a-SteamChest-3-DSC_2817.JPG)

Then cut notches for them both.  Now that I look at it, I think I may have to make the notches a bit deeper or the registers for the end caps will cover it completely!
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/031a-SteamChest-4-DSC_2819.JPG)

Next I moved on to the Steam Chest.  I cut a length of 1/4” x 5/8” Brass bar, Indicated it up in the 4 Jaw, and then cut the 1/4" spigot to the specified length.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/031a-SteamChest-5-DSC_2821.JPG)

Next I drilled and tapped it 10-32 for the Steam Chest Gland:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/031a-SteamChest-6-DSC_2822.JPG)

And finally, drilled and reamed a hole 3/32” for the valve rod to pass through.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/031a-SteamChest-7-DSC_2825.JPG)

Moving back to the mill, I squared up the brass bar to the right dimentions.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/031a-SteamChest-8-DSC_2827.JPG)

And here’s where we ended with the Cylinder today.  Next will be carving out the center of the Steam Chest and drilling the mounting holes.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/031a-SteamChest-9-DSC_2831.JPG)

After that – the Steam Chest cover and the Cylinder covers!

Thanks for checking in,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Don1966 on April 23, 2017, 01:23:47 AM
Looking good Kim ..... :ThumbsUp:


Don
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: crueby on April 23, 2017, 01:29:41 AM
Nice work!


What will the condensate valves be like? I could use some on my current build, not sure how to make them.


 :popcorn:
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: 90LX_Notch on April 23, 2017, 01:49:00 AM
Still following along Kim.  Everything looks awesome.

-Bob
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on April 23, 2017, 04:47:15 AM
Thanks Don, Chris, and Bob,

Chris, Here's a copy of the the Condensate Release Valve that is show in Rudy's plans. I think its OK for me to post it here since plans for the whole thing are freely available at various sites on the internet.  And in fact, this is from those downloads.  The plans in the book have been re-drawn and are much nicer. But its still the same thing regardless.

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/031a-SteamChest-Condensate_Release_Valve.JPG)

Not quite sure when I'll get around to this, but I'll get to it eventually! :)
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: crueby on April 23, 2017, 02:22:24 PM
Thanks Kim!
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Dave Otto on April 24, 2017, 12:48:03 AM
Nice work on the cylinder assembly Kim!

Dave
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on April 24, 2017, 01:13:52 AM
Nice progress Kim. Good to see an update as well. Are those thread forming taps you are using?

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on April 24, 2017, 02:01:15 AM
Thanks Don and Bill,

Are those thread forming taps you are using?
Yes, the are.  A few project back (maybe the 5-cylinder radial?) I broke several taps and was having quite a time with it and someone mentioned the roll-form taps.  I Amazoned a few of those in and from there on, they have been the only taps I buy.  I find that they work much better for me and I've broken far fewer taps using them.  You don't have the chip issue, they don't get dull (that I know of) and they are higher quality.  Undoubtedly, I could buy higher quality cutting taps too, or even spiral taps, but these have been a great investment for me. I've collected a half dozen sizes (the ones I used most; 2-56, 4-40, 6-32, 8-32, 10-32, 1/4-20, and maybe a few others).  I'm quite pleased with them!  The only trick with the forming taps is that you have to use a different drill size chart! But its been working for me.

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: crueby on April 24, 2017, 02:10:15 AM
Have not tried those before - do they work with just certain metals, or any? Any limitations on them other than the different drill chart?
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on April 24, 2017, 02:18:50 AM
Chris,The only thing I've heard is that they work well for softer metals, but might not work as well for harder steels.  I can tell you I've used them on aluminum, brass, bronze, 12L14 and 1018 all with good success.  I haven't tried any of the really small taps (2-56 or smaller) on steel.  I'd do a little more research before I used them there.  They have to squeeze the metal out of the way and into the shape of a thread.  But they've worked beautifully for me :)

But I'd love to hear the comments of others with more experience.

Kim

PS Oh yeah - I've also used them on that really hard DOM tube that I'm using for the Boiler Casing. Not exactly sure what it is, but it was busting HSS drill bits like nobody's business.  But I've been able to thread it to mount various items on it (like the smoke stack).
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on April 24, 2017, 02:21:05 AM
Today I got a few more hours of shop time and finished up the Steam Chest.

My next operation on the Steam Chest was to drill the clearance mounting holes:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/031b-SteamChest-1-DSC_2832.JPG)

Then I spent some time laying out the coordinates for the inside area to be removed.  Here’s the corners drilled at 1/16”.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/031b-SteamChest-2-DSC_2835.JPG)

And then I milled out the center with a 1/8” two flute mill.  Unfortunately, after all my careful math, I chose to cut ‘inside’ my lines by 20 thou, so that I could clean them up with a final pass (which is my standard procedure). The thing is… you have to add 20 thou on one side, and SUBTRACT it on the other.  Duh.  So, you can see the bottom is 20 thousandths too big. (see how close it is to the mounting holes?)
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/031b-SteamChest-3-DSC_2837.JPG)

It won’t matter. It’ll be under the cover of the steam chest.  Just makes me feel silly.

And to finish up the steam chest, a 10-32 tapped hole for the steam input port.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/031b-SteamChest-4-DSC_2841.JPG)

And, just to show you that math is out to get me today, when I went to assemble the steam chest to the cylinder, I found out that I’d transposed some numbers – the center hole was supposed to be at 0.531”, and I drilled it (very consistently mind you) at 0.513”.  So my center holes had to be expanded some to make them work.  The four corners align beautifully.  Just those pesky center holes.

Anyway, after my rework, the parts came together quite well.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/031b-SteamChest-5-DSC_2843.JPG)

Thanks for looking,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: mike mott on April 24, 2017, 04:27:10 AM
Hi Kim I spent a good part of this evening going through your entire build. What a great project and you certainly went through the trials and tribulations of quite a few processes which you seem to have mastered very nicely.

Mike
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on April 24, 2017, 05:22:35 AM
Thanks Mike!
I've had a great time with this build.  And as I said at the beginning of this thread (a year and a half back) one of the reasons I chose this project is all the new things I would get to learn!

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on April 30, 2017, 12:28:58 AM
I made several small parts today.  First off was the Steam Chest Cover.

I took a short piece of 1/8”x5/8” brass bar stock, squared it up and milled it to size, then drilled the six clearance holes.  I was careful to carry forward my transposed measurement for the center holes (it was supposed to be 0.531”, but I faithfully drilled it at 0.513” on the cylinder and the steam chest!).
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/032a-Cover_Gland_Valve-01-DSC_2844.JPG)

Here’s the family shot for the cylinder so far:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/032a-Cover_Gland_Valve-02-DSC_2850.JPG)

And assembled.  I do plan to do studs & nuts eventually.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/032a-Cover_Gland_Valve-03-DSC_2852.JPG)

Next up was the Steam Chest Gland.  Here we started with 1/4" hex brass, turned it down to 0.190” and single pointed in 10-32 threads:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/032a-Cover_Gland_Valve-04-DSC_2854.JPG)

Drilled and reamed a 3/32” hole for the valve rod:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/032a-Cover_Gland_Valve-05-DSC_2858.JPG)

Parted it off:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/032a-Cover_Gland_Valve-06-DSC_2859.JPG)

Then flipped it around in a 3/16” collet and faced off the other end to length.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/032a-Cover_Gland_Valve-07-DSC_2862.JPG)

The final part for the day was the valve.  This started as a piece of 1/4"x5/8” brass bar.  I could have used 1/4"x1/2”, but I didn’t have me some of that.  So I went with the 5/8”. After milling it down to the specified size, I used a 1/16” mill to carve out the exhaust cavity.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/032a-Cover_Gland_Valve-08-DSC_2864.JPG)

Then turning it over, I cut the other side down to 1/4" wide:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/032a-Cover_Gland_Valve-09-DSC_2867.JPG)

And, using the 1/16” mill again, cut the slot for the valve rod.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/032a-Cover_Gland_Valve-10-DSC_2868.JPG)

Here are the two new pieces; the gland and the valve.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/032a-Cover_Gland_Valve-11-DSC_2872.JPG)

And a final shot of the gland safely stored in its home on the Steam Chest.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/032a-Cover_Gland_Valve-12-DSC_2875.JPG)

Next will likely be the valve rod, to be followed by the piston, cylinder covers and other sundry smallish parts of the engine.

Thanks for the visit,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: crueby on April 30, 2017, 01:15:14 AM
 :popcorn:


 :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Dave Otto on April 30, 2017, 01:43:54 AM
Nice update Kim!

Ah you suffer too, with the numbers switching places in your head.  :lolb:
I have to be very careful using MDI (manual data input) on the CNC mill because of this.

Dave
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Walsheng on April 30, 2017, 02:08:44 PM
Quote
I took a short piece of 1/8”x5/8” brass bar stock, squared it up and milled it to size, then drilled the six clearance holes.  I was careful to carry forward my transposed measurement for the center holes (it was supposed to be 0.531”, but I faithfully drilled it at 0.513” on the cylinder and the steam chest!).

Just curious, do you happen to be left handed?  I have had many apprentices over the years and the majority of those kind of errors came from the left handed ones.  And yes, I am left handed and I need to be very careful.

I have been following along, very nice work.

John

Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Roger B on April 30, 2017, 08:06:10 PM
Still following along and enjoying  :ThumbsUp:  :wine1: I liked your use of the brass pins to keep the steam chest in place on the cylinder. It looks like you were pleased with the Flexihone. I have been aware of them for many years and have heard mixed reports but never actually tried one. I went in the direction of Acrolaps.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on April 30, 2017, 11:30:34 PM
Thanks for stopping by Chris, Dave, John, and Roger,

John, Dave,
Regarding my number transposing, as far as I know, I'm not left handed :)

I do believe I have a touch of dyslexia though.  Usually I read a number, and will transpose two of the digits when I say it out loud, but still write it down the way I saw it, which is the correct ordering (if that makes any sense).  But this time, I apparently wrote it down swapped, and carefully carried it forward.   I usually discover these kinds of things when I dial the coordinates in, and it doesn't look like its lining up where its supposed to. So I go back and check.  but this time, it was only 18 thousandths off, and my calibrated eye didn't catch that.

When I drilled the clearance holes for the Steam Chest, I figured it didn't matter which side I measured from, since everything was symmetrical.  But THAT is where I was wrong.  And 50/50 chance, wouldn't you know it, I measured from the wrong side, so the four outside holes line up well, but the inside ones were off by 36 thou (twice the 18 thou), just over 1/32", which is why I widened the center holes :)

It looks like you were pleased with the Flexihone. I have been aware of them for many years and have heard mixed reports but never actually tried one. I went in the direction of Acrolaps.
Yes, I was pleased with the Flex-Hone.  I doubt it is anywhere near as accurate as the Acrolaps that you are using, but it worked well for me in my situation.  Plus it was fairly inexpensive and fast!

Thanks,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on April 30, 2017, 11:40:14 PM
Looks great Kim, after all is said and done the mishap with the figures is invisible so its like it never happened!! Nice save.

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: 90LX_Notch on April 30, 2017, 11:50:28 PM
Nice job Kim especially single pointing the 10-32 thread.  Single point threading is my favorite machining operation.  There is just something about watching the thread form with each pass.

-Bob
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Don1966 on May 01, 2017, 12:13:27 AM
Awesome Kim all looks great!

Don
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on May 01, 2017, 01:03:48 AM
Thanks Bill, Bob, and Don!

Nice job Kim especially single pointing the 10-32 thread.  Single point threading is my favorite machining operation.  There is just something about watching the thread form with each pass.

-Bob
Couldn't agree more!  It wasn't that long ago that I was scared of single point threading.  But with some excellent coaching from several people on this forum (Don, you're one of them! Thanks!) and a little practice, I really look forward to it now.

In fact, I'll cut a thread on the lathe if I can, rather than use a die.  Not only is if fun, but that way I know the threads are straight and concentric, which doesn't always happen when use a die (if I get it started at a slight angle or something).

Kim

Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on May 13, 2017, 10:02:52 PM
Howdy everyone,
It's been a while since I had any shop time, and with my son coming into town tomorrow, I could see that it was going to be a while before I got another chance. So, today was my shop day! Or so I thought...   ::)

Next up was the Valve Rod.  It was supposed to be 3/32” Stainless rod.  I didn’t have any.  Only had 1/8”.  So I did what anybody would do and turned down a few inches of it to 3/32”.  I had to do it 1/4" to 3/8" at a time because it was so small, but that wasn’t too bad.

Next, I faced it to length and then cut the section that connects to the valve. This is 1/16” diameter to fit in the 1/16” slot in the valve.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/033a-ValveRod-1-DSC_2881.JPG)

Next, I flipped the rod around to cut some 2-56 threads on the other side.  I had to bring the 3/32” rod down a little for 2-56 – it’s major diameter is 0.086”.  Unfortunately, while I was cutting the threads, the rod broke :(
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/033a-ValveRod-2-DSC_2887.JPG)

Not much chance of salvaging that part now.  It’s 1/8” too short!  I also had to figure out how to get the threaded section out of the die.  I tried drilling it out, It didn’t work well – I was too worried about mucking up the teeth in the die.  Next I tried a jeweler’s saw.  That worked.  I cut between the teeth in the die, into the nubbin.  Did that from each side and eventually got all the pieces out.

Now, to start over.  This time, I decided to start with the threading.

So, I did.  Cut 1/4" down to the OD for 2-56, then tried the die. But I just couldn’t get it to start.  Clearly I’d messed it up the cutting teeth in my attempts to salvage it.  Bummer.

But wait!  I can single point it!  And wasn’t I just talking about how much I enjoy that?  So that’s what I did.  Got the lathe setup for 56 TPI and set to work.  But second cut in (and a shallow one at that) it snapped off…
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/033a-ValveRod-3-DSC_2891.JPG)

This is my total output for the day:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/033a-ValveRod-4-DSC_2894.JPG)
A couple hours into my session and it became clear to me that I needed to do something else. 

I see a new 2-56 die in my future.  And maybe some 3/32” stainless :)

Next time, maybe I’ll make some actual progress!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: scc on May 13, 2017, 10:23:30 PM
What a bummer!  I think we all get days like that from time to time  :'(

Enjoy your family time.........Terry

Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: 90LX_Notch on May 14, 2017, 12:03:38 AM
That stinks Kim. 


-Bob
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Dave Otto on May 14, 2017, 12:35:42 AM
Hey Kim

Some-days your the windshield, some-days your the bug. Next time things will go better.

Dave
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on May 14, 2017, 02:58:43 AM
Thanks Terry, Bob, and Dave,
Appreciate the encouraging comments.  While it was a bummer, somehow I wasn't too upset about it.  I just decided that things weren't going well and I'd chewed up enough metal.  I'd try again another day with a new (sharper?) die.

I'm not sure how to single point something that small!  Probably with a LOT lighter cuts that I was taking!

Next time I'll get it!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on May 14, 2017, 03:09:57 AM
It happens Kim. It just makes the good days that much better!! Hang in there.

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Jo on May 14, 2017, 08:22:27 AM
:thinking: What were you using to lubricate the die Kim? and how were you winding the die on? 

I am very fond of using my Whirlwind dies on 303 for thread cutting as them and the Coventry die heads seem to be happiest cutting it. I also find the TQS dies are good on 303. Other modern HSS dies have to be of a very good parentage of they have a habit of breaking off the work...

Thread cutting something that small   :o It can be done  :paranoia:

Jo
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: 90LX_Notch on May 14, 2017, 11:01:24 AM
Kim-

You can single point it.  Everything about the tool has to be perfect: dead sharp, honed,  on center, properly aligned and lots of spring cuts.    For that size I just grind the tool as a Sharp V Thread.  I did write up over on HMEM years ago after I single point cut an 0-80 thread.

http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/showthread.php?s=82facf33b73d8f6f27c13cab0bff4fda&t=13848.

 The YouTube video linked in that thread is just a demo cut for that topic.



-Bob
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: fumopuc on May 14, 2017, 01:28:39 PM
Howdy everyone,
......
A couple hours into my session and it became clear to me that I needed to do something else. 

I see a new 2-56 die in my future.  And maybe some 3/32” stainless :)

Next time, maybe I’ll make some actual progress!
Kim
Hi Kim,
you have mentioned already the two possible reasons for the disapppointing day in the shop.
SS can have many different properties. What we need is an easy machining quality. I do not know the AISI grade, here in Germany I would prefer 1.4305 which should be similar to the 303.
I have made a lot of M2 threading in the past, also in SS. I have learned there very quick, that a die can have very different capability to cut a thread, especially in SS.
So all my far east dies has been replaced in the meantime  by industrial quality dies, I do not know any source in the US, but I highly recommemt to invest hear some money.
The price for a M2 die at a German industrial tool dealer is about EUR 25,   in the UK it should be similar.
I know it may be sounds hard, but on the other side, may be in the near future, it will save you the one and only shop day in that week.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on May 15, 2017, 05:59:39 AM
Thanks Bill, Jo, Bob, and Achim, for the friendly advice!  It is always appreciated!

The SS is 303, so I should be good on that front.  I was using tap magic, and was doing my standard wind or two, then backup a bit.  However, I think I was a little too aggressive (clearly!) and wasn't breaking the chips enough.

I have no previous experience threading Stainless.  I've threaded 1018, 12L14, aluminum and brass, but have never used a die on 303.  So it's all part of the magical learning process.  I clearly need to be more careful with the 303.

I'm sure my die is your standard run-in-the-mill Chinese die.  I tried looking for a better one,
 but I couldn't find anything but Union Butterfield on Amazon, and they wanted just at $100 for one die. And while I'm sure its very good quality, that was a bit rich for my blood.

I have since found OSG on MSC for about $35 for a die.  Is it really worth 7x for the OSG die? Are they a good brand?  If someone has experience there, I'd go ahead and order one of those. I know the quality drills I purchased about a year ago have made a huge difference. I was a skeptic there too, but they are truly a pleasure to use!  If an OSG die (or some other brand you can recommend) would be a good investment, I'm willing to give it a shot.

Thanks,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: wirralcnc on May 15, 2017, 06:15:09 AM
Kim
Looking at yours pictures of your split die and holder, maybe you have over tightened the die in the holder.
The grub screws should really fit in the  split of the  die and can be used to adjust the thread your cutting.
Maybe crushing the die to a smaller cutting diameter, therfore ripping the thread and causing you to put excessive force into cutting.

You can adjust die and take a 2nd cut to get a good fitting thread.

Robbie
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on May 15, 2017, 06:38:13 AM
Thank you Robbie,
Yet another good idea on what went wrong.  I will be sure the die is open appropriately next time too.  One more vector to look into.

Yet another thing I read about is work hardening in stainless.  Is that an issue with 303?  And if so, what can be done to help address it?

Thanks,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: fumopuc on May 15, 2017, 10:19:03 AM
... a good source, but unfortunately far away from your home.
http://www.gewindebohrer.de/shop/catalog/product_info.php/info/p766_BAER-cutting-die-UNC-NR--2-x-56---HSS.html
This is the section, specially for SS, but not all sizes are available in Germany, the prices are really high.
http://www.gewindebohrer.de/shop/catalog/index.php/cat/c272_for-stainless-steels.html
I have never used one of this super special stainless cutter until now.
Another good source in Europe, may be the brand names will help to find it in the US.
https://www.gewindebohrer-shop.de/unc-schneideisen-gewindeschneider-c-129.html
http://shop.klein-mess.de/cgi-bin/shop/front/eidamo.cgi?func=anzeige&wkid=1586129493450964&rub1=063%20%2D%20Schneideisen%20UNC%20amerik%2E%20Grobgewinde


Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Walsheng on May 15, 2017, 12:52:14 PM
Thank you Robbie,
Yet another good idea on what went wrong.  I will be sure the die is open appropriately next time too.  One more vector to look into.

Yet another thing I read about is work hardening in stainless.  Is that an issue with 303?  And if so, what can be done to help address it?

Thanks,
Kim

Kim,  I machine a lot of 303 stainless in making molds for silicone medical part molds and have not found it to work harden.  When turning it I use a micro-drop oiler (compressed air that mixes in fine drops of oil.)  When milling I use coolant or RapidTap depending on if it is CNC or manual.

Love the build by the way and have followed from the start.

John
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on May 15, 2017, 06:43:12 PM
Thanks for the links Achim, appreciate it!

John, thanks for relating your experience here.  I've only used 303 a very little and thought it was nice to work with. But I've never tried threading it!  So its good to hear your experience on it.  Just getting a sharp die, making sure I don't have it clamped down too tight, and taking it easy, with plenty of cutting oil - I'm hoping that will get me there!

Thanks for all the input!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: 90LX_Notch on May 15, 2017, 07:12:31 PM
Four simple words Kim:

No guts, no glory.  (Single point)

-Bob

Ps, 
OSG is very good.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on May 15, 2017, 09:01:04 PM
Kim, OSG is a good brand. Check the MSC sales flyers and sometimes you will luck up and what you need on sale.

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on May 20, 2017, 10:48:08 PM
Well, with all my whining about threading stainless steel I did last week, this week turned out rather anticlimactic. Things just worked. :)

I got a new 2-56 die (a relatively inexpensive one, so Chinese made I’m sure), and some actual 3/32” stainless rod in the mail this week.  I turned a short bit of it down to the 2-56 size and just threaded it.  Nothing special.  I mean, I was careful, but it wasn’t anything big.  It just worked.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/033b-ValveRod_Piston-1-DSC_2896.JPG)

Here, I cut the section that locks into the valve.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/033b-ValveRod_Piston-2-DSC_2898.JPG)

And here it is, in place, just like that! :)
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/033b-ValveRod_Piston-3-DSC_2902.JPG)

Next was the piston.  This was made from some 1/2" bronze rod.  I turned it down a little bit (the 1/2" stock was amost 3/32” oversized!), but not to the final size.  Then drilled & tapped 4-40.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/033b-ValveRod_Piston-4-DSC_2904.JPG)

After that, I cut it off the parent stock.  I used this little parting tool to go about half way through, then cut the rest of the way with a hacksaw.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/033b-ValveRod_Piston-5-DSC_2906.JPG)

Then I threaded the piston onto the piston rod I made (sorry no pictures, though it was quite boring – a length of 1/8” SS threaded 4-40 at both ends) and put that in the 1/8” collet.  With that, I turned the piston down to size, truing it up to the piston rod.  After that, I cut a notch for an o-ring:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/033b-ValveRod_Piston-6-DSC_2907.JPG)

Here’s the completed Piston, with Piston rod.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/033b-ValveRod_Piston-7-DSC_2911.JPG)

You can see I tested an O-ring with it and it worked fine, but I couldn’t get the O-ring back out, and I didn’t want to damage it (yet).  I’m not sure if I’m going to use the Viton O-ring or use some graphite string.  I’m kinda leaning toward the graphite string.  Any thoughts from anyone here?

Also, should I solder the piston on the rod?  Seems like trusting the 4-40 threads seems a little naïve.

Thanks for helping me along!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: steam guy willy on May 20, 2017, 11:43:37 PM
Hi Kim , is the 2-56 thread  2mm X 56 threads per inch ?? i only use BA threads over her in blighty so am not familiar with this thread system ??   good work going here as well
Willbert.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: 90LX_Notch on May 20, 2017, 11:49:52 PM
Nicely done Kim.

-Bob
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on May 21, 2017, 12:11:17 AM
Kim, I could be that the teeth on the new dies were just sharp compared to the one last week. Either way  the threads and the piston assembly look great!!

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: crueby on May 21, 2017, 12:41:24 AM
Hi Kim , is the 2-56 thread  2mm X 56 threads per inch ?? i only use BA threads over her in blighty so am not familiar with this thread system ??   good work going here as well
Willbert.
It's a gauge number, not a metric size.  Here is a nice concise explanation of the numbering system:
http://www.votawtool.com/product_help/Thread_Sizes.asp



Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on May 21, 2017, 05:30:05 AM
Thanks for following along Wilbert, Bob, Bill and Chris, I really appreciate the support!

Yes, Bill, I think you're right.  My old die was just dull or chipped or something.  The new one worked great.

Wilbert, as Chris says above 2-56 is referring to a UNC standard.  The fist number is the guage and are the opposite of the BA numbers.  With the US numbers; 2, 4, 6, 8 etc. the smaller numbers are smaller gauge, where as with BA standard, the smaller number are larger size.  And yes, the second number is the threads per inch.  There are usually two different 'standard' thread values for each size, a coarse thread (UNC) and a fine thread (UNF).  For #2 size, 2-56 is the UNC standard, and 2-64 is the UNF standard.

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on May 27, 2017, 11:30:05 PM
Today I started on the Cylinder Covers.

These were made from 1” brass rod.  After truing up and facing it off, I cut the centering disk 1/32” deep, and made it fit nicely in the cylinder.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/034a-CylinderCovers-01-DSC_2917.JPG)

Then cut it off from the parent stock.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/034a-CylinderCovers-02-DSC_2919.JPG)

Then I mounted my taig 3” chuck on my Grizzly lathe and use that to true up the other side and cut it to width.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/034a-CylinderCovers-03-DSC_2931.JPG)

Then I went over to the mill and coordinate drilled the mounting holes for the cover.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/034a-CylinderCovers-04-DSC_2933.JPG)

After transferring those holes to the cylinder, I drilled & tapped them 2-56.  The lower right hole looks a bit funny because I accidentally started out with the 4-40 tap.  It started getting real tight really fast and I figured out what I’d done! I swap out with the correct tap and all is well, but it put that pucker around that one hole.  I filed it flat when I was done and no one will be the wiser. :)
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/034a-CylinderCovers-05-DSC_2934.JPG)

Now for the other cover.  (I’m showing these pictures out of order.  I actually did this part while I still had the 1" brass rod in the lathe.  I just thought it made a better narrative sticking with one cover at a time.)

This one has the Piston Rod coming through it, so I needed to keep the holes and the centering boss concentric.  I started on the opposite side,  cutting the 3/8” boss for the gland first.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/034a-CylinderCovers-06-DSC_2921.JPG)

Then I spotted, drilled and reamed the 1/8” hole for the piston rod.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/034a-CylinderCovers-07-DSC_2924.JPG)

Next, I drilled and tapped 1/4-28 for the piston rod gland.  I usually like to use the roll-form taps, but I didn’t have a 1/4-28 forming tap, so I went with what I had.  Just had to remember to drill the correct sided hole for a cutting tap!
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/034a-CylinderCovers-08-DSC_2927.JPG)

After cutting it off, I went back to the Collet chuck and used a 3/8” collet to hold the cover in place.  I felt that using the collet on the 3/8" boss would keep things concentric while I cut the centering disk on the other side.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/034a-CylinderCovers-09-DSC_2929.JPG)

And here’s where I left off for the day:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/034a-CylinderCovers-10-DSC_2937.JPG)

Tomorrow I’ll drill the mounting holes in the second cover.

Thanks for stopping by!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: 90LX_Notch on May 28, 2017, 04:51:00 AM
Still following along Kim.  How much more work is left untill the project is completed?

-Bob
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on May 28, 2017, 05:50:56 AM
Hi Bob,
Thanks for stopping by, I appreciate the support! :)

How far to the finish line?  Interesting question!  Well, I've got a lot done, but I'm sure I've got another year to go at my rate.  The big things left to go are completing the engine, the boiler and all the plumbing work, and few other sundries.  Beyond that, there's the painting & finishing that I don't enjoy so much.  So I've still got a goodly ways to go.  But I'll just keep plugging along, and having fun in the process!

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Don1966 on May 28, 2017, 04:26:35 PM
Kim a little late but still with you and some real nice work from you stable. Every piece brings you closer to completetion and as we say it "one more step closer to the fanally". Always nice work buddy.... :ThumbsUp:


Don
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on May 28, 2017, 11:03:17 PM
Thanks Don, I always appreciate your support!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: 10KPete on May 28, 2017, 11:19:16 PM
I'm here! Just not saying much....

 :popcorn: :popcorn:

Pete
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 28, 2017, 11:42:05 PM
but I'm sure I've got another year to go at my rate.  The big things left to go are completing the engine, the boiler and all the plumbing work, and few other sundries.  Beyond that, there's the painting & finishing that I don't enjoy so much.  So I've still got a goodly ways to go.

That's fine. It's a good story.  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Ridjobradi on May 29, 2017, 12:41:53 AM
I just wanted to say that I appreciate the time that take to post your progress. I have been subscribed since the beginning.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on May 29, 2017, 09:57:55 PM
Hey Pete, Zee, and Ridjobradi, thank you for following along and for the support! :)
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on May 29, 2017, 10:03:42 PM
The other cylinder cover is very similar to the first, BUT it has some extra holes to support the crosshead guides.  Here we’re at the mill, completing the coordinate drilling of the mounting holes and the crosshead guide holes.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/034b-CylinderCovers-1-DSC_2939.JPG)

Next, we spot, drill & tap the mounting holes in the cylinder.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/034b-CylinderCovers-2-DSC_2942.JPG)

Now, for the Cylinder Gland.  Using some 3/8” brass hex, I turned down a 1/4" length to 1/4" diameter. Then single point thread it at 28 TPI.  Turned out nice!
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/034b-CylinderCovers-3-DSC_2945.JPG)

Now, I drill and ream to 1/8” for the piston rod.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/034b-CylinderCovers-4-DSC_2950.JPG)

And cut it off the parent stock.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/034b-CylinderCovers-5-DSC_2952.JPG)

Guess I didn’t get a picture of this, but  after cutting it off, I flipped it around in a 1/4" collet and faced off the top side to the correct length.  Then I counter sunk the back side of the gland, since Rudy (and others) say this will help the gland seal around the rod.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/034b-CylinderCovers-6-DSC_2953.JPG)

All the completed cover pieces:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/034b-CylinderCovers-7-DSC_2957.JPG)

And the cylinder assembly completed:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/034b-CylinderCovers-8-DSC_2963.JPG)

(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/034b-CylinderCovers-9-DSC_2966.JPG)

Next up, the crosshead and the crosshead guide.

Thanks for checking in!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: joe d on May 29, 2017, 10:24:31 PM
Kim:

Looking good!  I haven't said much lately, but I'm still following along.

Cheers, Joe
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Flyboy Jim on May 30, 2017, 03:05:57 AM
Looks good Kim. It finally it home to me, watching your build and Chris's Lombard build, just how small the actual steam engine is on these machines, compared to everything else.

Jim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: crueby on May 30, 2017, 03:33:40 AM
Looks good Kim. It finally it home to me, watching your build and Chris's Lombard build, just how small the actual steam engine is on these machines, compared to everything else.

Jim
Steam is strong! The Lombard is rated at only about 100 hp, but has monster low end torque. You should refit your airplane for steam!
The look on the FAA inspectors face: priceless!!
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Flyboy Jim on May 30, 2017, 03:43:00 AM
Looks good Kim. It finally it home to me, watching your build and Chris's Lombard build, just how small the actual steam engine is on these machines, compared to everything else.

Jim
Steam is strong! The Lombard is rated at only about 100 hp, but has monster low end torque. You should refit your airplane for steam!
The look on the FAA inspectors face: priceless!!

It was actually done in 1933: nw6NFmcnW-8
Jim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: crueby on May 30, 2017, 04:23:35 AM
That's awesome! I would add a 3 chime whistle....


Sorry for the side trip, back to your wonderful engine project!!
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on May 30, 2017, 05:09:55 AM
Not a problem!  The discussion is what makes the builds fun and interesting!  I never knew there was a steam powered airplane!  Thanks Jim and Chris for stopping by and for the fascinating info :)
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Steamer5 on May 30, 2017, 09:25:58 AM
Hi Kim,
 Still following along, enjoying the build!

Wonder how long it will take Jim to convert his plan?.

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on June 04, 2017, 07:24:11 PM
Thanks Kerrin!
Yes, it will be interesting to see how Jim fits the steam engine in his plane  :ROFL:

Yesterday, I tackled the Cross Head Guide. In this engine, the Cross Head Guide is nothing but two 1/8” pieces of square brass stock for the cross head to slide between.  They connect to the cylinder cover on one side and are supported on the other by a piece of sheet metal.

So, to start, I got some 1/8” brass, cleaned up the end, and drilled & tapped 2-56 to attach to the sheet metal support.  The plans called for using a 1-72 machine screw here, but I don’t have a 1-72 tap, or any 1-72 fasteners.  2-56 is only a few thousandths larger than 1-72, so I decided to give that a try.  If it doesn’t work out, they won’t be too hard to re-do anyway.
Here we are, tapping that 2-56 hole:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/035a-CrossHeadGuide-1-DSC_2968.JPG)

After facing to length, I cut a 1/8” long, 3/32” diameter plug to fit in the matching hole in the Cylinder Cover.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/035a-CrossHeadGuide-2-DSC_2970.JPG)

Here are the completed Cross Head Guides.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/035a-CrossHeadGuide-6-DSC_2981.JPG)

Placing the Cross Head Guild in the Cylinder Cover for a test fit, I noticed that the sheet metal I’d formed for the support wasn’t the right size. Turns out, I’d made it 7/8” wide on the OUTSIDE of the supports, not on the INSIDE as is shown in the plans.  Oops…
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/035a-CrossHeadGuide-3-DSC_2973.JPG)

OK, not a big deal.  I’ve got extra sheet metal.  So I set out to make a new support bracket with the CORRECT dimensions.  My sheet metal break doesn’t do well when bends are that close together, so I had to improvise with my vise, like so:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/035a-CrossHeadGuide-4-DSC_2976.JPG)

Here’s the new part in the same position.  It actually is a better fit than this looks here – the gap is due to the picture, and not really quite what it looks like there.  Also, the sheet metal will not go right next to the cylinder like this – it will connect to the other side of the Cross Head Guides. This fit up was just to make sure the sheet metal would keep the Cross Head Guides parallel.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/035a-CrossHeadGuide-5-DSC_2979.JPG)

I’m not going to mount the Cross Head Guide or the support piece until after I get the cylinder mounted.  Hopefully I can get it so everything is square and runs smooth.  We’ll see…

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on June 04, 2017, 09:29:05 PM
Kim the cylinder assemblies look great!! Nice to see you getting some shop time.

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Don1966 on June 05, 2017, 07:51:20 PM
Looking good Kim keep um coming bud!


Don  :cheers:
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on June 06, 2017, 01:11:07 AM
Thanks Bill and Don,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on June 18, 2017, 01:35:20 AM
Before I start on my update for the weekend, I wanted to take a moment to introduce the newest member of my shop.  Not too long back my wife gave me this wonderful birthday present!  Isn’t she sweet? :)
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/035b-CrossHeadGuide-01-DSC_2988.JPG)

While I already have an air compressor, the thing is so loud that it's extremely uncomfortable to use in an enclosed space (like my shop).  And if you leave it on so you can use it, and you are focused on something it will suddenly come on and you think you’ve been shot  :o or that the walls are coming down!  So, I only use it on special occasions, and I tend to use those little cans of compressed air (the ones sold for cleaning your keyboard and such). But having compressed air available in my shop all the time will be a wonderful thing!

She also got me this cool blow gun. 
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/035b-CrossHeadGuide-02-DSC_2985.JPG)

After using it today though, I realize I’m going to have to mount hooks in a few strategic locations around the shop so I can hang the blow gun up.  It doesn't seem to like to stay on the bench where I set it: the hose pulls it to the floor!  ::)

OK, On to my build!

Picking up where I left off, with the Cross Head Guides.

I needed to drill the holes in my new Cross Head Guide Support, which I did like so:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/035b-CrossHeadGuide-03-DSC_2992.JPG)

After that, I tried nibbling out a little bit of the metal to make the Cross Head Guide Bars fit and made a big oops.  I got a little excited with my nibbler :(.  So, off I went to make a third version of the support.

Here’s the whole lot of them – first one in back (to narrow) the next one in the middle (stuffed up the mounting hole) and the final one in front.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/035b-CrossHeadGuide-04-DSC_2994.JPG)

This time around I just rounded the very end of the Cross Head Guide so it would fit into the corner of the sheet metal support. That seemed to work better than trying to modify the support!  Here it is for a test fit:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/035b-CrossHeadGuide-05-DSC_2997.JPG)

Rudy says to solder the supports to the Cylinder Cover using soft solder. And here it is, in the solder area, ready to be soldered:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/035b-CrossHeadGuide-06-DSC_2998.JPG)

After soldering and a little clean-up:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/035b-CrossHeadGuide-14-DSC_3003.JPG)

After the Cross Head Guide, comes the Cross Head itself.  For this engine, the Cross Head is made of 3 pieces, A center piece, the same width as the bars, and two guides, all riveted together.  The center piece will slide between the bars and the guides will slide on either side of them.

Starting with a small piece of 5/8” x 3/4" x 1/8” CRS, I milled it to size, then drilled and tapped a hole for the piston rod:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/035b-CrossHeadGuide-08-DSC_3005.JPG)

Then turning it sideways, I cut the relief for the Connecting Rod, staring with a ¼” hold in the center:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/035b-CrossHeadGuide-09-DSC_3008.JPG)

And then half of a 3/8” hole on the outside edge.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/035b-CrossHeadGuide-10-DSC_3011.JPG)

I used a 1/4" mill to connect them and approximate the shape of the Connecting Rod hole:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/035b-CrossHeadGuide-11-DSC_3013.JPG)

Then finished it up with a file:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/035b-CrossHeadGuide-12-DSC_3016.JPG)

And this is how it fits in.  This will slide between the guide bars, and next time I’ll make the pieces of sheet metal that will keep it tracking on the guides, then rivet them together.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/035b-CrossHeadGuide-13-DSC_3017.JPG)

That’s my progress for the day, thanks for stopping by.
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on June 18, 2017, 02:00:14 AM
Great progress Kim and you are going to love the compressor!!!  Amazingly quiet aren't they. Nice blow gun too, any details on it?

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: crueby on June 18, 2017, 02:03:16 AM
Nice progress on the crossheads. That compressor looks like the bigger brother of mine, same motor on a bigger tank. Much much quieter than the usual ones.


 :popcorn:
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: 90LX_Notch on June 18, 2017, 03:07:44 AM
Nice work Kim.

-Bob
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on June 18, 2017, 06:23:48 AM
Thanks Bill, Chris, and Bob,

Yes, its surprising how quite it is, especially compared to my old one.  Its somewhat lower capacity, but it has plenty to blow chips around!  I was using it off and on all morning in the shop and it only kicked on once or twice.  Very tolerable, noise wise. Quieter than most of my machines.

Bill, the blow gun is a Capri brand (never heard of it before I sent my wife a helpful link (yeah, she had a little help knowing what equipment I thought would be fun for my BDay :) ).  https://www.amazon.com/Capri-Tools-Adjustable-Extended-Nozzle/dp/B01DCHA3R2/ref=pd_sim_469_4 (https://www.amazon.com/Capri-Tools-Adjustable-Extended-Nozzle/dp/B01DCHA3R2/ref=pd_sim_469_4)

It seems pretty good.  Don't know that I have a lot to compare it with.  The air blasts I get from it are very similar to what I get out of a fresh, new can of "Dust Off", which is what I've been using for years. https://www.amazon.com/Dust-Off-Disposable-Compressed-Duster-Cans/dp/B00FZYT278/ref=sr_1_2 (https://www.amazon.com/Dust-Off-Disposable-Compressed-Duster-Cans/dp/B00FZYT278/ref=sr_1_2)

Chris, this is the 5.5 gallon version.  This and the smaller one both seem to have exactly the same compressor and motor, same CFM, same noise, etc. But it just has the bigger tank (and weighs twice as much).  Other than that, I think they're the same beast.

And yeah, its quite and I really like it!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on June 18, 2017, 01:24:01 PM
Thanks for the link Kim. I will check it out  ;)

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on June 21, 2017, 01:23:11 PM
Kim, I ordered one of these and it came in yesterday. This is a very nicely made nozzle and the flow rate control is an added plus for sure!!  Again thanks for the link.

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on June 25, 2017, 01:15:25 AM
Great!  Glad the blow gun is working for you Bill.  I'm certainly making use of mine!


I left off having just made one part of the cross head.  I’ve got two parts to go.  These parts are outside edges that will ride along the left and right side of the Cross Head Guide rails. I started by cutting two chunks of 22 GA sheet steel.  I double sticky taped them together, squared them up, and shaved them down to the required 3/4" x 3/4".

Then I drilled and reamed a 3/32” hole in the center for the Connecting Rod Gudgeon.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/036a-CrossHead-1-DSC_3020.JPG)

Then I drilled four holes for the rivets (#55).
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/036a-CrossHead-2-DSC_3023.JPG)

Here ‘s a family shot of the Cross Head stackup.  The brass piece is a little shim I made to widen the center opening of the Cross Head.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/036a-CrossHead-3-DSC_3025.JPG)

After riveting the pieces together, I made the 1/8” semicircle cuts in the back of the Cross Head.  Not sure what those are for, but they are shown in the plans, so I did them.  Plus, they kinda look neat :)
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/036a-CrossHead-4-DSC_3028.JPG)

And here’s the completed Cross Head:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/036a-CrossHead-5-DSC_3032.JPG)

And slid into place on the Cross Head Guide:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/036a-CrossHead-6-DSC_3034.JPG)

After a little filing and fiddling, I was able to get it to work pretty well.  But of course, now I realize that I should have shimmed some on both sides of the center instead of just the one side... live and Learn.  I got this one working quite well though.

Thanks for taking a look,
Kim

Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Dave Otto on June 25, 2017, 01:24:29 AM
That looks very nice Kim!


Dave
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on June 25, 2017, 05:49:19 AM
Thanks Dave!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: 90LX_Notch on June 25, 2017, 09:36:24 AM
Nice family shot Kim.  All of your efforts are paying off.

-Bob
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on June 26, 2017, 01:08:27 AM
Thanks for stopping by and taking a look Bob!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on June 26, 2017, 01:40:29 AM
Today, I started work on the Connecting Rod, which will connect between the Cross Head (finished yesterday) and the crank shaft.

I spent an inordinate amount of time doodling and thinking about just how to do it. It isn’t really that hard, but the part tapers, so I was figuring how I’d do that, and it also has an optional flute, that I opted for. So, I sat in my shop, listening to NPR (“Wait Wait, Don’t Tell Me”) and got it all figured out!

I was originally planning to do a 1/8” flute using 1/8" ball end mill, up both sides of the Con Rod.  But I realized the flaw in my plan - if I made both of the flutes 1/16” deep (to get the full 1/8” width) then the flutes would break through and I’d have holes in my Con Rod.  Not what I was after.  So, I switched to using a 3/16” ball end, and then tried to calculate out how deep I’d have to go to get a 1/8” width.  After applying my incredible math skills, I came up with about 23.5 thousandths of depth. And that would do just fine!

To finally get started making swarf, I cut a length of 1/8”x3/8” steel bar (1018), trimmed it down to 5/16” width (no pictures), and drilled & reamed the holes for the cross head gudgeon, and the fly wheel crank pin.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/037a-ConRod-1-DSC_3036.JPG)

Next, I got my 3/16” Ball End Mill, and went to work on the flute for the first side.  My calculations were right on!  It came out just at 1/8" in width!
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/037a-ConRod-2-DSC_3038.JPG)

Unfortunately, it slowly started to dawn on me that my flute wasn’t coming out in the center of the part like it was supposed to.  So I checked my drawing to make sure I had correctly calculated center, and sure enough, I had.  Unfortunately, it was my brain to DRO mapping that went awry.  I just dialed in the wrong value for the Y-axis.  I used 136 instead of the specified 156.  Just one of those !Duh! moments  :facepalm:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/037a-ConRod-3-DSC_3039.JPG)

Ah well.  It’s too hot in the shop today anyway.  Time to stop.  >:(

While frustrating, I’ll be able to knock this out pretty fast next time I think. The second time always goes faster :)  (How do I know that so well?  ::) )

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on June 26, 2017, 01:44:06 AM
Been there, done that too...recently too. Just blame it on the heat Kim... :shrug:

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on June 26, 2017, 01:56:51 AM
Yeah, that's it!  It was the heat! I'm sure of it! :)

Thanks Bill,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Steamer5 on June 26, 2017, 02:58:34 AM
Hi Kim,
 Still following along. Think we have all been there done that!

Sounds like a soothing ale is called for! Dehydrating in the workshop isn't good!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on June 26, 2017, 05:52:09 AM
Thanks Kerrin!
No, we certainly don't want to get dehydrated!   :cheers:
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on July 02, 2017, 12:57:55 AM
Last we left our hero, he’d just doofed up the Con Rod.  So today, I started making a new one.  Getting back to the spot I goofed up went much faster than the first time, as one might expect.  Here we are, right where we left off, but with the flute carved right down the center.  YAY! :cartwheel:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/037b-ConRod-01-DSC_3042.JPG)

Now for the uncharted territory!  The Con Rod is tapered between the big and little ends.  So, as I usually do, I spent a significant amount of time calculating the exact size of drill bits to put through each hole, to get the right taper.  I finally got there, and it even looks about right:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/037b-ConRod-02-DSC_3043.JPG)

And here we are, taper complete.  All’s that’s left is to round the little end.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/037b-ConRod-03-DSC_3046.JPG)

And showing some level of overconfidence, I messed up this last step.  :facepalm:  You can see where I made a deep gouge out of the left side of the Con Rod there.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/037b-ConRod-04-DSC_3048.JPG)

I gave some serious thought to just using that one anyway, since the goof would be hidden from people, but I’d know it was there.  So, I did it yet again.

This time I chose to round the little end by hand, using a file:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/037b-ConRod-05-DSC_3051.JPG)

The victory shot: :)
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/037b-ConRod-06-DSC_3053.JPG)

Here’s all three of them – the top one (first) took me ~2 hours to do and it wasn’t complete.  The second one took 2 hours but was a gnat’s breath from being complete.  The third one (bottom) only took me an hour.  So, I got better! (at least faster).
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/037b-ConRod-07-DSC_3056.JPG)
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on July 02, 2017, 01:18:46 AM
Next, I went to work on the Gudgeon Pin.

This was a simple turning exercise on some 3/16” CRS rod.

First, I turned a 1/8” length down to #2 size and threaded it for a 2-56 nut.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/038a-GudgeonPin-01-DSC_3060.JPG)

After turning down the shank to 3/32”, and the head to 5/32”, I parted it off the parent stock.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/038a-GudgeonPin-02-DSC_3064.JPG)

Then to the mill, where I used a 1/32” mill to cut a slot in the head.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/038a-GudgeonPin-03-DSC_3065.JPG)

Here’s all the pieces of the engine so far:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/038a-GudgeonPin-04-DSC_3069.JPG)

And assembled:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/038a-GudgeonPin-05-DSC_3072.JPG)

Thanks for looking in.

Thanks,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Dave Otto on July 02, 2017, 01:21:25 AM
Nice looking parts Kim!
I'm not sure I understand though how you are dealing with editing the photos; maybe for another thread.


Dave
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on July 02, 2017, 01:24:45 AM
Thanks Dave,

Sure, I'll make another thread about how I'm doing the pics.  Not sure if I like having them there twice, but I DO like keeping the images with the text.  It's a bit of work, but then, so was hosing the images on the Site Who Shall Not Be Named.  :rant:

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Don1966 on July 02, 2017, 04:56:26 PM
Late as usual Kim but staying up. Outstanding work buddy the parts are looking great... :ThumbsUp:


 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on July 02, 2017, 05:53:42 PM
Those look good Kim as does the screw. About time for another big family shot isn't it?  ;)

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on July 02, 2017, 06:01:35 PM
Thanks Don and Bill!

About time for another big family shot isn't it?  ;)

Yeah, its getting close.  I had to take things apart do the Smokestack, and I haven't gotten it back together yet.  I'll When I do, we'll do another family portrait :)
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on July 03, 2017, 05:06:37 PM
Yesterday, I made the Crank.  This was a fun little piece.  A LOT of steps went into this one, but interestingly, this is one of the first parts I’ve made where it all came out of scrap bucket! (Fun little trivia to share with your friends :))

Here’s where I’m headed.  Rudy suggest making it as two pieces – the inner piece with the triangles cut out, and an outer ring. Then solder them together.  This felt bad to me – to chew a 1” hold in a big piece of brass, only to replace it with another 1” piece of brass.  That is, it felt bad until I found I had a nice piece of 1 1/2" round brass in my scrap bucket.  It was there becase it was less than 2” long and had a 1/2" hole bored in it already.  But that was great in this case, since it meant half my job was already done!  And I had a little nubbin of 1” brass in the bucket too.  I should have taken a picture of the starting pieces for show-n-tell!
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/039a-Crank-Crank.JPG)

Anyway, so I started on the inner piece.  Faced off both sides, then drilled & reamed a 1/4" hole.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/039a-Crank-01-DSC_3073.JPG)

Then I cut the 3/8” hub:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/039a-Crank-02-DSC_3076.JPG)

Now to make the triangle cuts.  I started this way – straight up in the vise.  I found center using the 1/4" rod I’d stuck through the center hole.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/039a-Crank-03-DSC_3078.JPG)

Then I cut away everything outside of the 1/4" center post, down to my predetermined depth that I made up (the drawings are very unclear about these tringle cut-outs.)
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/039a-Crank-04-DSC_3079.JPG)

Now, the next part was even less straight forward for me.  I chose to mill them out this way.  First, I marked the line I wanted to remove, then I lined it up best I could to march that mark, and milled down to it (being really careful not to mill into the center post).
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/039a-Crank-05-DSC_3083.JPG)

Then I did the same to the other side, and figured that would have to do.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/039a-Crank-06-DSC_3084.JPG)

Then I turned it sideways and drilled & tapped a 6-32 hole for the Crank Pin.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/039a-Crank-07-DSC_3086.JPG)

To make the ring, I put the 1 1/2" round piece of scrap brass into the 3 jaw chuck and finished boring it out to 1”.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/039a-Crank-08-DSC_3089.JPG)

As I approached the 1” mark, I went very carefully to get a good fit for the 1” center piece that would have to fit. Like so:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/039a-Crank-09-DSC_3088.JPG)

Finally, I turned the outside of the ring down to 13/8”, per the plan.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/039a-Crank-10-DSC_3092.JPG)

And then cut it off to about the correct width.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/039a-Crank-11-DSC_3096.JPG)

Following this I went through the burnt offering sacrifice phase.  I cleaned the parts, fluxed them up and fried the little puppies to within an inch of their lives while trying desperately to get them to solder together.  Fortunately for you, I completely forgot to take any pictures of this disgusting event.  But trust me when I say, it wasn’t pretty.  But in the end, it cleaned up OK.  I chucked it up again and shaved off a little bit on each side to get the final width, and then filed away for a long time to get rid of the solder blobs.

After that, I drilled & tapped for a 6-32 set screw.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/039a-Crank-12-DSC_3097.JPG)

All this resulted in the final product: the Crank.
And I think he will do.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/039a-Crank-13-DSC_3101.JPG)

Thus ends this installment.  Thank you for visiting!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on July 10, 2017, 02:43:40 AM
I turned out the crank pin fairly quickly – it was exactly the same process as the gudgeon pin from a post or two back, so I didn’t post a lot of action shots, but here it is completed:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/040a-CylinderBracket-01-DSC_3106.jpg)

Before I can move along too much further, I need to mount the cylinder. So, that’s what I did this weekend (and part of the 4th).  First, I laid out the up-right part of the bracket on 22 GA sheetmetal.  Then using the scroll saw, files, and other various means, I cut out the shape.  This shows the part with a filing button mounted as I get ready to round the top part of bracket to make it look nice.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/040a-CylinderBracket-02-DSC_3108.jpg)

After rounding the mounting tabs I folded the edges to help stiffen the bracket.  And that’s the part in the top of this picture.  Next, I cut out and shaped the bottom part of the bracket that will connect to the Boiler Casing.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/040a-CylinderBracket-03-DSC_3110.jpg)

To hold this little part in place while drilling the holes, I used some double sided sticky tape.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/040a-CylinderBracket-04-DSC_3112.jpg)

Bending the tabs and shaping the lower bracket took some ingenuity, but I worked it out.  Here I’m using the inside of an extra bit of the Boiler Casing pipe to help shape the tabs and the curve of the part.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/040a-CylinderBracket-05-DSC_3114.jpg)

Figuring out how to get the two pieces mounted in correct alignment was a real puzzle.  In the end, I put some double sticky tape on the bracket and held them all up like “so” on the boiler casing and pressed it onto the tape.  Then I took it all apart and drilled one hole (the center one).
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/040a-CylinderBracket-06-DSC_3119.jpg)

Then I took the tape off, placed a rivet in that hole, then drilled the next hole, riveted it, then the final hole. I think it came out looking pretty good:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/040a-CylinderBracket-07-DSC_3120.jpg)

Now, to mount the Cross Head Guide Bracket.  I’ve been waiting to mount this till now so that I’d get it in the right place.  I decided to mount this one first, THEN I’d mount the Cylinder Bracket.  I did this in a similar way, using double sticky tape to hold the parts in place.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/040a-CylinderBracket-08-DSC_3128.jpg)

But then, after I get it all setup on the mill, I discover that I can’t get the mill head close enough to drill the holes.  It hits the boiler casing. :(
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/040a-CylinderBracket-09-DSC_3132.jpg)

So I strip the horn plates off the boiler casing, trying desperately not to mess up my double sticky tape joints, and found a way to hold that assembly in place to drill the rivet holes.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/040a-CylinderBracket-10-DSC_3135.jpg)

And then I riveted it together.  Now the two horn plates are forever connected.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/040a-CylinderBracket-11-DSC_3136.jpg)

For the final step, I again employed the double sided sticky tape to hold the bracket in the right place on the Boiler Casing.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/040a-CylinderBracket-12-DSC_3139.jpg)

Then I spot the three holes through the bracket base:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/040a-CylinderBracket-13-DSC_3144.jpg)

After marking them, I removed the bracket and the tape, then drilled and tapped the three holes for 2-56 bolts.

And here is the Cylinder, mounted and able to smoothly turn the crank and the whole gear chain!
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/040a-CylinderBracket-14-DSC_3146.jpg)

Though that doesn’t seem like a lot, it was a significant amount of work to put all of those pieces together and maintain alignment so that things would slide and rotate as appropriate.  And I’m pretty glad it’s done now!

Thanks for looking,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: crueby on July 10, 2017, 03:00:33 AM
Nice job on holding and shaping those brackets, tricky stuff!


 :popcorn:
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on July 10, 2017, 10:49:37 AM
Lots of time consuming and tedious work but the end results are great.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on July 10, 2017, 02:34:06 PM
Thanks Chris and Thomas!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Don1966 on July 10, 2017, 03:37:59 PM
Nice job on holding and shaping those brackets, tricky stuff!


 :popcorn:
I agree very nice work Kim....


 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on July 10, 2017, 04:22:36 PM
Thank you Don!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on July 16, 2017, 02:13:27 AM
Steam Tractor (Rudy K)
Cylinder Bracket

As I’ve put the Tractor together, and taken it apart, I have found that I’m getting little dimples and bumps around where the set screws engage with the shafts.  This makes it hard to get the wheels and gears on and off.  I know this comes as no surprise to you guys, but now I understand why you mill flats onto you shafts.  Not only does it help the set screw hold better, it keeps the dimples out of harms way.

This most recent time when I was re-assembling, one of the things I did was to mill flats on all the shafts.

But another thing I’ve found – the set screw on the main rear wheels are IMPOSSIBLE to get to.  I made the hole for the set screws in the hubs before I’d assembled the wheels:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/003a-RearWheelHubs-14-DSC_0394Sm.jpg)

And now, after assembling the wheels,it’s impossible to get a alan wrench in there so you can tighten the set screw between all those spokes.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/006b-Grouters-7-DSC_0614Sm.jpg)

So, I decided it was time to make new holes for the set screws.   I wanted these to be at an angle, and closer to the outside edge – easier to get at with a allen wrench.  So this is what I did.

I used a large sine vise to hold the wheels, then drill a new hole for the set screw, like so:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/041a-ValveMotionPin-1-DSC_3172.jpg)

And since I couldn’t get a tap wrench in that close, I ended up using the bare tap, with a little itty-bitty hex wrench to turn the tap.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/041a-ValveMotionPin-2-DSC_3177.jpg)

This worked great, and now it is SO much easier to assemble the rear wheels onto the axel.

After this, I started to move forward in the build by making three of these Valve Motion Pins:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/041a-ValveMotionPin-3-DSC_3182.jpg)

And here are all the completed Valve Motion Pins:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/041a-ValveMotionPin-4-DSC_3188.jpg)

While I only made a little progress on my build today, I resolved the issue with the rear wheel set screws, AND I fixed the problem with the DROs I’d been having. That was time well spent!  (see this thread:  http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php?topic=7289.new#new (http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php?topic=7289.new#new))

Thanks for looking in,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: John Hill on July 16, 2017, 03:43:09 AM
You have already found a solution to your wheel fixing screw but I could mention that traction engines often had holes in the wheel tread for fixing grousers.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on July 16, 2017, 05:19:53 AM
You have already found a solution to your wheel fixing screw but I could mention that traction engines often had holes in the wheel tread for fixing grousers.
That would have been an interesting solution - add a hole in the wheel right over the existing set screw.  Hadn't thought of that.  But maybe I'd have to drill a few extra holes to make it seem intentional? :)

Ah well, as you said, I've got it sorted now.
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on July 23, 2017, 02:46:15 AM
It was hot here today (well, it was up in the 90’s and that is HOT for me!) but I still did some work out in the shop.

The first part (the Valve Spindle Eye)I actually did last weekend.  But the second part (Rocker Arm), I did today.

The Valve Spindle Eye started as some 1/4" square brass stock. I first turned the end down, then drilled and tapped 2-56 for the Valve Spindle.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/042a-ValveRocker-01-DSC_3190.jpg)

Then cut it off the parent stock.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/042a-ValveRocker-02-DSC_3192.jpg)

On the Mill, I drilled and reamed the 3/32” hole for one of the Valve Motion Pins (see last update).
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/042a-ValveRocker-03-DSC_3194.jpg)

Then made some 1/4” filing buttons to use in rounding off the ends:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/042a-ValveRocker-04-DSC_3197.jpg)

To mill the 1/16” slot down the center of that, I had to line it up perpendicular to the mill spindle.  To help get this alignment, I slid a 0.093” gauge pin in the hole and used that.  It helped significantly!
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/042a-ValveRocker-05-DSC_3200.jpg)

Then using a 1/16” end mill, I cut the slot.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/042a-ValveRocker-06-DSC_3202.jpg)

Here’s the finished product.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/042a-ValveRocker-07-DSC_3204.jpg)

It turned out great!

Except that today I realized that I was supposed to ream 3/32” on one side of it, and tap the other side.  :facepalm:  So I’ll be doing this piece again!


Today I made the Valve Rocker Arm.  This is a short piece of 1/16” brass plate, with a few holes and minimal shaping.

Here are the holes.  The end one had to be elongated by 1/32”, so I used a 3/32” endmill to do that.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/042a-ValveRocker-08-DSC_3206.jpg)

To round the ends of the rocker, I wanted to use filing buttons.  So I made a set of 3/16” buttons.  Here I’m cutting off the second filing button:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/042a-ValveRocker-09-DSC_3210.jpg)

And this is my setup for heat treating them.  When they get hot enough that they are no longer magnetic, they fall off and land in the water where they are quenched. I learned this little maneuver with the magnet from Dave Otto.  It’s been a great help!
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/042a-ValveRocker-10-DSC_3212.jpg)

And to temper them, I learned a new trick from reading one of Kozo’s books (A3 Penssy Switcher).  I put them on a piece of metal and heated them up from the bottom, through the metal.  This is MUCH better than direct heating, especially for these small parts.  I had such a hard time keeping them from getting too hot too fast.  But Kozo's method worked brilliantly!  (though it still took me two tries :))
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/042a-ValveRocker-11-DSC_3216.jpg)

Filing buttons in hand, I rounded the ends of the Valve Rocker:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/042a-ValveRocker-12-DSC_3220.jpg)

And it's all done.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/042a-ValveRocker-13-DSC_3221.jpg)

Thanks for taking a look!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Roger B on August 01, 2017, 08:50:12 PM
Still following along and enjoying   :wine1: I like the heat treatment methods for the filling buttons  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp: They would have been a good solution to rounding off the little end of the connecting rod.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on August 02, 2017, 12:27:24 AM
Kim, just curious....why is it necessary to temper the filing buttons?

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on August 02, 2017, 02:27:59 AM
Kim, just curious....why is it necessary to temper the filing buttons?

Bill

Well Bill, it's my understanding that tempering, after heat treating, maintains the hardness of the tempering, but makes it less brittle.  And I thought that tempering was always a the second step to an official full heat treating process.  Is that not the case? Is tempering optional?  Does it not matter if my filing buttons are brittle since they're less likely to receive a shock when in use?  As opposed to the rivet tools which take a continual beating?

I'm happy to learn here!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: crueby on August 02, 2017, 02:39:45 AM
I would think that the filing buttons, being so short and just being rubbed on, would not need the tempering, though it won't hurt. For a longer shaft, it's important to prevent cracking. I've hardened the ends of clock pivot shafts so they wear better and don't bend, for them tempering was very important.

Are parts like valves or crankshafts on model IC engines hardened?
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on August 02, 2017, 02:58:58 AM
Kim, I am just trying to learn here too. Tempering is a part of the full process as you say, a balance between hardness and toughness. My thought was that not being subject to much shock, you would want the buttons as hard as possible, but that is just speculation on my part. I am hoping to learn something myself.

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on August 02, 2017, 04:59:47 AM
Still following along and enjoying   :wine1: I like the heat treatment methods for the filling buttons  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp: They would have been a good solution to rounding off the little end of the connecting rod.

Thanks Roger!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on August 02, 2017, 05:01:18 AM
I would think that the filing buttons, being so short and just being rubbed on, would not need the tempering, though it won't hurt. For a longer shaft, it's important to prevent cracking. I've hardened the ends of clock pivot shafts so they wear better and don't bend, for them tempering was very important.

Are parts like valves or crankshafts on model IC engines hardened?
Interesting, that you harden the pivot shafts on clocks.  Makes sense, but I had never thought about it.  Do you harden the bearing hole the pivots sit in too?

Can't answer anything about ICs, but I'm sure someone here can! :)
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on August 02, 2017, 05:01:43 AM
Kim, I am just trying to learn here too. Tempering is a part of the full process as you say, a balance between hardness and toughness. My thought was that not being subject to much shock, you would want the buttons as hard as possible, but that is just speculation on my part. I am hoping to learn something myself.

Bill

Guess we'll learn together, Bill! :)
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Steamer5 on August 02, 2017, 07:10:21 AM
Hi Kim,
 Still following along, you are making great progress, steam up can't be too far away!

On the filing button front, the old guy that I use to go to & use his shop, didn't harden his filing buttons as he didn't want to blunt his files. So I followed that idea, you just let the buttons roll when the file gets to them, yes it means that you have to remake them from time to time but that's no biggy! The only thing I do differently is that I use a spring on the bolt, shaft or what ever you use to hold the buttons to keep them pressed up against the work piece, just make sure you use a nyloc nut (or 2 if you use a shaft) or the shop elves will be whooping for joy at have new things to play with fir d in there direction!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: crueby on August 02, 2017, 12:06:19 PM
I would think that the filing buttons, being so short and just being rubbed on, would not need the tempering, though it won't hurt. For a longer shaft, it's important to prevent cracking. I've hardened the ends of clock pivot shafts so they wear better and don't bend, for them tempering was very important.

Are parts like valves or crankshafts on model IC engines hardened?
Interesting, that you harden the pivot shafts on clocks.  Makes sense, but I had never thought about it.  Do you harden the bearing hole the pivots sit in too?

Can't answer anything about ICs, but I'm sure someone here can! :)
Kim
The pivot ends on clocks are usually a barrel shape, which reduces the area in contact with the side plates, and also helps hold the oil. They are hardened. The plates are brass, which you can't harden beyond the state they are in when the sheet is manufactured.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on August 06, 2017, 01:22:06 AM
Hi Kim,
Still following along, you are making great progress, steam up can't be too far away!
Thanks Kerrin!
Well, once I get the engine working, then I actually have to make the boiler!  THEN I should be getting close!  ;D
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on August 06, 2017, 01:23:16 AM
The pivot ends on clocks are usually a barrel shape, which reduces the area in contact with the side plates, and also helps hold the oil. They are hardened. The plates are brass, which you can't harden beyond the state they are in when the sheet is manufactured.
Interesting Chris.  Someday, I'll make a clock and maybe I'll understand all this better!
Thanks,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on August 06, 2017, 01:35:40 AM
The last few weekends have been super busy with family and other obligations, so I didn’t get around to posting an update. Today I hope to catch up.

My last update was completing the Valve Rocker.  So, next, was the Valve Rocker Support.  This is a little sheet metal bracket.  And while the bracket itself is not difficult, mounting it in the correct place was challenging.

I started by drawing out the bracket on sheet metal and drilling the main hole (before I cut it to a weird shape that would be difficult to hold.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/043a-EccentricRod-1-DSC_3224.jpg)

Then after completing the bracket (no pictures), there were hours of fussing around to determine the correct location.  Part of the problem is that the Valve Rod Eye hit the bracket.  I had to modify the shape of the bracket some to get any kind of equal movement back and forth on the rocker.

When things were lined up to my satisfaction, I used some double sided sticky tape to hold it in place, and drilled the holes for the rivets.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/043a-EccentricRod-2-DSC_3225.jpg)

Here it is after riveting in place on the support between the Horn Plates.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/043a-EccentricRod-3-DSC_3228.jpg)

And the next pictures show the culmination of several shop sessions where I spent a lot of time adjusting things to make them align better; I re-positioned the Cross Head Guides by re-flowing the solder (they were a little crooked, now that's been fixed!), re-did the Valve Rod Eye (so it has threads) and then re-did it again so that I had a little more length to it to make things line up better.  And even after all that, I’m only marginally pleased.  The valve rocker seems to stick a little when pushing the valve rod too the right.  So, I will likely need to work on that more.

Still, its getting close. Here you can see the valve at one end of travel (valve cover off):
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/043a-EccentricRod-4-DSC_3234.jpg)

And at the other extreme:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/043a-EccentricRod-5-DSC_3235.jpg)

Next I’ll tackle the Eccentric Rod.  Today I made the eye to connect to the top of the Valve Rocker, and the Eccentric Ring.  No pictures of making the eye, since it was exactly like the Valve Rod Eye.

The Eccentric Ring was made from 1” Bronze.  First I turned it to 1”, then drilled a 1/2” hole.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/043a-EccentricRod-6-DSC_3241.jpg)

Then bored it out to 5/8” to fit over the eccentric.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/043a-EccentricRod-7-DSC_3243.jpg)

And finally parted it off.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/043a-EccentricRod-8-DSC_3247.jpg)

By this time, it was way too hot in my shop and I decided it was time to go in.  But here’s the pieces of the Eccentric Rod so far:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/043a-EccentricRod-9-DSC_3249.jpg)

Thanks for stopping by and taking a look!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on August 06, 2017, 01:45:49 AM
The little details and finicky parts are often time consuming, but the results are looking great Kim.  Has your heat wave subsided yet??

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on August 06, 2017, 05:09:33 AM
The little details and finicky parts are often time consuming
Thanks Bill, and isn't that so true?!

Has your heat wave subsided yet??
Well, they say it has.  Its been in the tripple digits this week, which is pretty unusual for us.  Today they claim it was below 90, but I don't believe them.  Tomorrow and all next week they're predicting 97-98 degrees every day. Yuck...  Though I'm sure not as bad as you, or much of the country.  I'm just a wimp when it comes to heat!

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on August 06, 2017, 12:07:34 PM
We have only been in the 80's this past week with night time lows in the upper 60's, quite a nice break for us though there is still the humidity to endure. So looking forward to Fall!!!

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: steam guy willy on August 06, 2017, 12:34:36 PM
Hi Kim,
 Still following along, you are making great progress, steam up can't be too far away!

On the filing button front, the old guy that I use to go to & use his shop, didn't harden his filing buttons as he didn't want to blunt his files. So I followed that idea, you just let the buttons roll when the file gets to them, yes it means that you have to remake them from time to time but that's no biggy! The only thing I do differently is that I use a spring on the bolt, shaft or what ever you use to hold the buttons to keep them pressed up against the work piece, just make sure you use a nyloc nut (or 2 if you use a shaft) or the shop elves will be whooping for joy at have new things to play with fir d in there direction!

Hi, if the filing buttons are hardened won't the file just glide over them ? i always harden mine ,but don't bother to temper them ?? Good work going on here
Willbert
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Steamer5 on August 06, 2017, 07:27:48 PM
Hi Willy,
 The theory is / was that yes the hardened buttons would roll when the file hits them, IF the stud isn't done up too tight, but there is likely hood of damaging the file when it hits the button. Probably could agree to disagree either way on this! So I've never harden them.... also due to not having heating gear at the time.... but use to have issues with getting odd shapes if not careful when getting down to the last bit to round if the stud Was to tight to stop the nut falling off! So by using a longer stud a spring & locknut(s) it solved several problem.
I guess it's horses for courses on what you were shown / taught back when.

Right back to regular updates on Kim's progress!... still looking good!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Don1966 on August 10, 2017, 09:12:30 PM
Shaping up real nice Kim with all the details. Still following you buddy.... :ThumbsUp:


 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on August 13, 2017, 12:35:24 AM
Thanks for all the input on heat treating the filing buttons everyone!  And all the encouragement!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on August 13, 2017, 12:46:06 AM
Today's update: completing the Eccentric Rod.

I drilled and reamed the hole for the Eccentric Rod on one side of the ring, and on the other side, I drilled and tapped the set screw hole. The set screw will ride in the groove on the eccentric to keep the ring aligned.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/043b-EccentricRod-01-DSC_3251.jpg)

With that done, it’s time to solder the pieces together.  I decided to try silver soldering.  I probably could have gotten by with soft solder, but I need to overcome my fear of silver soldering.  So, that’s what I did.  Here I’m all setup for the operation – flux and a short length of solder in place:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/043b-EccentricRod-02-DSC_3254.jpg)

I was trying to be careful not to get things too hot, but I think I just wasn’t aggressive enough. It took too long to bring things up to temp and my flux melted away.   I added a little more, and eventually, the solder went zap and melted. So, I finally got there.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/043b-EccentricRod-03-DSC_3255.jpg)

A pickle bath and cleanup, and finally ready for the other side.  And here’s that operation complete.  Went much better!
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/043b-EccentricRod-04-DSC_3258.jpg)

After cleanup, I bent the rod, as directed, and discovered that even with all my careful planning the rod was too long. I was trying to figure out exactly how to deal with this – do I re-solder?  Or just bend the rod WAY more that shown in the plans? No, bad idea. A sharp bend in the rod looked stupid.  OK, re-solder.  But how do I get the thing apart now? 

About this time, the rod just came right out of the ring.  Apparently, there was no real solder connection.  It just came apart.  Guess that solved THAT problem.

So I adjusted the length of the rod – THIS time I checked it more carefully to make sure it would be about the right length:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/043b-EccentricRod-05-DSC_3260.jpg)

Then I went back and silver soldered it again.  This time I tried to be more careful to make sure I got an actual connection.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/043b-EccentricRod-06-DSC_3261.jpg)

But alas, as I was cleaning the part – snap – it came apart again. Clearly the solder was not wicking down into the hole.

Then I started thinking – I had a 3/32” rod, in a 3/32” reamed hole.  It was a nice snug fit that I was proud of. But there was no room for solder to wick down there.  Kozo talks about this in his silver soldering technique description in his “Building the Shay” book (the original one – I don’t have the “New Shay” book (yet)).

So, I opened up the hole a bit.  I used a 3/32” drill instead of the 3/32” reamer.  That loosened the fit just a bit, hopefully enough.  So, I get it all setup and try a third time.  This time I added a little extra solder just to be sure.  And I was pretty sure I got a good solder fillet.  And I could see that it came out the other side of the hole too (on the inside of the ring).  Success!
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/043b-EccentricRod-07-DSC_3264.jpg)


After cleanup, it still looks good.  And it didn’t break off.  Nice solder fillet all the way around! And a nice ring of solder on the inside of the hole too.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/043b-EccentricRod-10-DSC_3267.jpg)

And here’s a close-up of the other side of the rod. That joint looks pretty good too (though it could stand a bit more cleanup – it’s amazing what you can see in these close-ups that you can’t in real life!)
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/043b-EccentricRod-08-DSC_3269.jpg)

And here’s the completed Eccentric Rod:
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/043b-EccentricRod-09-DSC_3266.jpg)

Well, I guess this is what I wanted!  Some education to help me on my way to gaining confidence in silver soldering.

Clearly the solder was not wicking down into the hole.  And in fact, looking back at a zoomed in version of the first two attempts, you can see that is the case.

Here’s a zoom-in on the first attempt.  You can see that the solder has melted onto the larger part (the ring) but doesn’t touch the rod.  There’s a bunch of crystalized flux that is holding them together. And if you don’t look closely, it almost looks like a shiny solder fillet. But its clearly not.  The flux is very brittle and will just break away.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/043b-EccentricRod-11-DSC_3256.jpg)

The second attempt has a similar problem.  The picture doesn’t show it as clearly but you can see the same problem.  Solder all around on the big part, but the shiny fillet between the ring and the rod is just a bunch of crystalized flux.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/043b-EccentricRod-12-DSC_3262.jpg)

A zoom-in on the third (and final) attempt shows that you can actually see the solder fillet here.  There’s still crystalized flux around but you can also see an actual solder fillet.  And even more telling, was the solder that came through the back side.  Sorry, no pics of this.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/043b-EccentricRod-13-DSC_3263.jpg)

Remember – in each case these pictures were taken to show the excellent solder fillet I thought I had.  But the first two cases there was no actual solder contact on the smaller part.  Just a shiny looking fillet that turned out to be nothing but flux.

The real give away, I think, is the fact that a little solder came out the back side through the hole in the third attempt, and it didn’t in the first two.

Anyway, I’m a bit smarter now than I was this morning!  So it’s a good day.  And I’ve got a completed Eccentric Rod that will fit where its supposed to go! :)

Thanks for checking in on me,
Kim

Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: crueby on August 13, 2017, 01:10:50 AM
Nice recovery on the solder!


In Kozo's new shay book, he mentions using a small prick punch on mating flat surfaces to leave wicking room. For shafts in holes, do like you did and just drill rather than ream. As you saw, seeing solder on the far side is a sure sign of success.


Maybe someday I'll get it figured out myself, so many little techniques to the soldering.


 :popcorn:


 :popcorn:
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Dave Otto on August 13, 2017, 01:25:50 AM
Very nice work Kim, and you gained a bunch of knowledge today too.  :ThumbsUp:
The small punch marks that Chris mentioned work great to help keep parts in alignment and leave space for the solder to flow.

Dave
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on August 13, 2017, 01:47:22 AM
Third time is the charm as they say. Well done Kim!

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on August 13, 2017, 02:19:47 AM
Nice recovery on the solder!

In Kozo's new shay book, he mentions using a small prick punch on mating flat surfaces to leave wicking room. For shafts in holes, do like you did and just drill rather than ream. As you saw, seeing solder on the far side is a sure sign of success.

Maybe someday I'll get it figured out myself, so many little techniques to the soldering.
Yes, he has that in the original Shay book also.  Still, I'm going to get the New Shay book too.  I think I need the whole set :)

Very nice work Kim, and you gained a bunch of knowledge today too.  :ThumbsUp:
The small punch marks that Chris mentioned work great to help keep parts in alignment and leave space for the solder to flow.
All these little details that always make more sense once I actually try it!  And yes, while I'm no where near to having confidence, I'm actually starting to see how this silver soldering thing might work!

Third time is the charm as they say.
They do say that, and it seemed to hold true for me today!

Thanks!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on August 14, 2017, 02:07:58 AM
Short update today.  Today, I made the Eccentric.

It started as a 5/8” diameter 12L14 rod.  I cut a shallow groove then cut off the 1/4" Eccentric.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/044a-Eccentric-1-DSC_3271.jpg)

After cleaning up the sides, I put it in the mill to drill and tap a hole for the eccentric stop post – this is going to be a slip eccentric.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/044a-Eccentric-2-DSC_3274.jpg)

Then, I drilled and reamed a 1/4" hole, offset from the center by 1/8”.  This of course, gives it the eccentric throw.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/044a-Eccentric-3-DSC_3275.jpg)

Here’s the Eccentric family shot to date.   Still have the Eccentric hub to go – the thing that will catch the pin and make the slip eccentric turn.
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/044a-Eccentric-4-DSC_3277.jpg)

Slowly but slowly, I’m making progress :)
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: crueby on August 14, 2017, 03:59:15 AM
Looking forward to seeing how the slip eccentric works, haven't seen the details of what goes into one yet.


 :popcorn:
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: steamboatmodel on August 16, 2017, 05:51:47 PM
Looking at your soldering shots, in one of the failed attempts you can see the solder has formed into a ball on the surface, this is a sign of not enough or uneven heating. It takes lots of practice to bring everything up to the proper temperature all at the same time and not burn off the flux. It does look like you have it in the final attempt.
Regards,
Gerald.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on August 16, 2017, 06:50:09 PM
Thanks for the comment Gerald,
I appreciate any pointers and coaching I can get!  This Silver Soldering thing has a bit of a learning curve.  I do think I'm improving, but it can still smell my fear :)  I'm gaining confidence though!  Practice, practice, practice!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on August 16, 2017, 07:05:49 PM
Kim, sorry for the late response, " yeah I'm still following " . Man I've welded from Sch.10 stainless to 4" wall chrome moly under X-ray scrutiny, but, have never silver soldered. I've "soft soldered " or " plumber soldered" up to 4" copper pipe. I really am learning from your trials and tribulations  :cheers:.

Cletus

Oh yeah, loving the build overall
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: crueby on August 16, 2017, 07:34:41 PM
Looking at your soldering shots, in one of the failed attempts you can see the solder has formed into a ball on the surface, this is a sign of not enough or uneven heating. It takes lots of practice to bring everything up to the proper temperature all at the same time and not burn off the flux. It does look like you have it in the final attempt.
Regards,
Gerald.
That kind of ball will also form if you have the flame directly on the solder rather than on the metal near it. Goal is to get the metal hot enough, quickly, to melt the solder itself. A pointed length of rod is handy as a tool to push the solder against the joint, also to spread the melting solder along the joint. Once it has a start it will flow farther, like tinning a wire. As you say, practice, practice. Lots of ways to mess it up, great feeling when it just goes.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Don1966 on August 16, 2017, 07:38:21 PM
Bit late here Kim but your making progress and your soldering skills will improve as you get wisher about things. You're doing excellent work buddy keep it up the tractor is looking great.... :ThumbsUp:



 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on August 16, 2017, 09:19:14 PM
Thanks Cletus, Chris, and Don, for the continued help and encouragement!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 16, 2017, 11:37:40 PM
Still, I'm going to get the New Shay book too.  I think I need the whole set :)

I have that set. Since I was a kid I've always dreamed about building my own loco.
The books are excellent.

But now I can't decide on which one.  :headscratch:
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on August 17, 2017, 12:10:38 AM
I've got my eye on the A3 Pennsy Switcher!  But it'll be a while till I get past this project, so who knows where I'll be then. :)
But they are good books, aren't they?
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on August 21, 2017, 10:46:47 PM
This last weekend I worked on the Eccentric Collar. This is the part that will engage with and turn the Eccentric.  The trick to this part, of course, is that it has to be tuned so that it will make the Eccentric rotate in the appropriate phase for either forward or reverse!

To make the Eccentric Collar, I started with some 1/2" 12L14, drilled and reamed a 1/4" hole, then parted it off, 1/4" wide.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/045a-EccentricCollar-1-DSC_3282.jpg)

Then I went to the mill and took about 1/2 of one side off – this is the part that will ‘slip’ and catch the pin in the eccentric.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/045a-EccentricCollar-2-DSC_3286.jpg)

And on the other side, I drilled and tapped for a 6-32 set screw.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/045a-EccentricCollar-3-DSC_3288.jpg)

Then assembled, here’s with the Eccentric Collar connected to the pin going one way:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/045a-EccentricCollar-4-DSC_3292.jpg)

And then the other way:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/045a-EccentricCollar-5-DSC_3293.jpg)

The previous steps took maybe 20-30 minutes.  The next part was to fine-tune the collar so that it engaged the eccentric at the right phase for both forward and backward operation. And I spent many, many hours struggling with this step.

Rudy has a lengthy paragraph explaining exactly how to do this, but try as I might, I haven't gotten it to work yet.  I'd think I was close, only to discover that I was doing it backwards or something.  Anyway, after many, many hours of twiddling, head scratching, and re-reading Rudy’s directions, I finally decided I just had to try something different.

So I decided to hook it up to air and see if I could get the engine turning in at least ONE direction.  So that's what I did; I made a little temporary inlet pipe, hooked up the air, and went at it.  In fairly short order, I got it to run in one direction. Unfortunately, it takes a lot of air to make it go – 20psi or more!  But here is the results of my labor:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEWj_BQzUbE

And here's a picture of the mess:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/045a-EccentricCollar-6-DSC_3295.jpg)

I was a little disappointed.  20PSI is a LOT of pressure, and that’s with no load.  But I was consoling myself by saying at least it goes around!  And I can figure out the slip eccentric another day.

As I was bleeding off the air from the compressor, letting the engine run, I felt a solid breeze coming out from under the cylinder. Of course, that’s where the exhaust would come from right now because its not plumbed anywhere else.  But upon further investigation, I realized that the mighty wind was coming from the condensate release valves!  They were just sitting there leaking a ton of air the whole time! I had never filled those holes!

I tried plugging them with my fingers, and BOY did that make a big difference!  I’m going to have to do my tests again AFTER plugging those holes!  That should make the engine run on less air I’d think!

Anyway, that discovery made my day.  It doesn’t fix the slip eccentric issue of course; I’ll get that sorted.  But I was really worried about how much air the thing was taking. This was a very exciting find for me  :pinkelephant:

Anyway, thanks for stopping by!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: crueby on August 22, 2017, 12:36:56 AM
Nice description on the slip eccentric, was wondering how that worked. I suppose you could fine tune the fwd/rev setting with a different size head on the pin?

Also, nice catch on the drain valves! Glad you found that one.     :cartwheel:

Oh, and just watched the video again, and realized you have a clear cover on the steam chest, that must have made the timing a bit easier, clever!
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Dave Otto on August 22, 2017, 01:10:19 AM
Congrats on a runner Kim!
With a little tweaking and running I'm sure that you will get her ticking over with much lower pressure.

Dave
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on August 22, 2017, 01:22:21 AM
Also, nice catch on the drain valves! Glad you found that one.     :cartwheel:
Thanks Chris,
Yeah, that was one of those real "duh" moments.  Just makes you feel rather dim  :facepalm2:
I tend to have quite a few of those  :embarassed:

Oh, and just watched the video again, and realized you have a clear cover on the steam chest, that must have made the timing a bit easier, clever!
Yes, I made that specifically for setting the timing, and boy, does it help to be able to see what's going on in there  :insane:

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on August 22, 2017, 01:23:17 AM
Congrats on a runner Kim!
With a little tweaking and running I'm sure that you will get her ticking over with much lower pressure.

Dave

Thanks Dave,
No doubt getting something in those drain valve holes will help! :)
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Don1966 on August 22, 2017, 04:23:44 AM
Looking good Kim and I am sure you will sort out any issues that come up. I bet your a happy camper to see it running. Keep it up buddy..... :ThumbsUp:


 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: fumopuc on August 22, 2017, 09:55:35 AM
Hi Kim, congratulations for the very first run.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Steamer5 on August 22, 2017, 01:21:14 PM
Hi Kim,
 Bet you are a happy chappy!

Keep at it you haven't got far to go now!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on August 22, 2017, 02:43:13 PM

Hi Kim,

Just viewed your video on Youtube and gave you a  :ThumbsUp:

Really looked good running and sounded very powerful. You have to be pleased :cartwheel:

Thomas
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on August 22, 2017, 03:01:56 PM
Still following Kim and happy for you. I know what you mean about missing something; I was trying to start the Red Wing onetime and after some "tuning" I lost all compression. After thirty minutes of head scratching, I realized I had left the spark plug out :facepalm: :lolb:.

Cletus
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on August 22, 2017, 08:50:50 PM
Thanks Don, Achim, Kerrin, Thomas, and Cletus,
Yes, I'm quite pleased that it will run!

Cleatus, that's a pretty good story!  I can see myself doing the same thing  :Lol:
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on August 22, 2017, 11:02:34 PM
Excellent result for a first run Kim. And after your ah ha moment even more positive. Well done!!

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: 90LX_Notch on August 22, 2017, 11:23:01 PM
That is awsome Kim.  It is nice to see it run and I am still following along.

-Bob
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on August 23, 2017, 12:45:12 AM
Hey Bill and Bob,
Thanks for looking in and for the encouraging comments!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on August 28, 2017, 12:57:54 AM
Today’s shop time was spent tweaking in the slip eccentric so that both the forward AND backward directions would work.  It really wasn’t all that hard, once I figured it out, but it just takes a while to wrap your mind around it.

While I may be slow, my momma didn’t raise no dummy. So I fixed my leakage problem by putting little 4-40 set screws in the open holes on the bottom of the cylinder.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/045b-EccentricCollar-1-DSC_3302.jpg)

Soon, those should be filled with drain valves, but for now, just plugging the holes was a HUGE help.  Now the engine is running on ~3-5 PSI, even while driving the gear train and wheels.  I don’t’ know exactly what the pressure is because the gauge I have doesn’t really register till it gets somewhere above 5 I think.  But this is a big improvement!

And after some adjusting of the (new) eccentric collar, I have it working both forward and backward. Here’s a short video clip of the engine running on air, both forward and backward.  The last half of the video shows the slip-collar moving for one direction, and then the other (sorry the focus isn’t idea in the second half).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBYGdRBL5Gs

And just for fun, a couple of shots showing the working engine and gear train.

 (http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/045b-EccentricCollar-2-DSC_3299.jpg)

 (http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/045b-EccentricCollar-3-DSC_3296.jpg)

Thanks for checking in on me!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on August 28, 2017, 01:10:42 AM
That is sure running smooth Kim, and that slip eccentric is slick too. Always great to see an update on this build!!

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: crueby on August 28, 2017, 01:14:03 AM
That's great! Thanks again for the details of the slip eccentric, makes sense to me now.
Were they used on the full size engines? If so, was there some way to switch direction other than pulling the flywheel over by hand?


 :popcorn:
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 28, 2017, 01:26:34 AM
I just saw a big smile in that post.

Good. I needed that.  ;D
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on August 28, 2017, 01:41:39 AM
Thanks Bill, Chris, and Zee,

Were they used on the full size engines? If so, was there some way to switch direction other than pulling the flywheel over by hand?
Interesting question!  I'm interested in that question too!  It doesn't seem like a very useful method for reversing in real engines.  I'd love to hear about this from some of the folks with a lot of experience in steam.

I just saw a big smile in that post.
Good. I needed that.  ;D
Yes, you did see a big smile!  And a little happy dance too!  :pinkelephant:

But I'm feeling for you right now Carl  :'(.  And hope that you can get your new toy figured out quickly and that its something very easy!  We're all pulling for you!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: 90LX_Notch on August 28, 2017, 02:09:22 AM
Sweet.

-Bob
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: gbritnell on August 28, 2017, 12:59:34 PM
Kim,
Slip eccentrics were used on working engines like in small marine or shop applications but to the best of my knowledge I've never seen them used with larger engines that needed to be reversed fairly quickly.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Jo on August 28, 2017, 03:33:04 PM
Locomotion has slip eccentrics on her  :)

Jo
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on August 28, 2017, 06:47:38 PM
Slip eccentrics were used on working engines like in small marine or shop applications but to the best of my knowledge I've never seen them used with larger engines that needed to be reversed fairly quickly.
Thanks George, that makes sense to me!

Locomotion has slip eccentrics on her  :)
Sorry to be dense here Jo, but who's "Locomotion".  I know what the word means, but you seem to be using it as a proper noun.


I was doing a little googling and found that Arnold had posted a nice write-up on slip eccentrics several years back.  As I re-read it, I remembered seeing it (since it talks about his parrot).  You can find it here: http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php?topic=2355.0 (http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php?topic=2355.0)

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Jo on August 28, 2017, 06:57:46 PM
Locomotion has slip eccentrics on her  :)
Sorry to be dense here Jo, but who's "Locomotion".  I know what the word means, but you seem to be using it as a proper noun.

 :facepalm: https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Robert_Stephenson_and_Co:_Locomotion_No._1

A mobile Beam engine, that I have castings for  :whoohoo:

Jo
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: tvoght on August 28, 2017, 07:50:59 PM
I put a slip eccentric on "Robby" my Roberts Mechanism engine. The discussion starts here:

http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,5293.msg107925.html#msg107925

It worked fine, but I disabled it because it caused a distinctive knock that I didn't want to be heard when showing it. I don't know if that's common to slip eccentrics or just my own implementation.
I never really put any effort into trying to remedy it.

--Tim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on August 28, 2017, 08:51:59 PM
Locomotion has slip eccentrics on her  :)
Sorry to be dense here Jo, but who's "Locomotion".  I know what the word means, but you seem to be using it as a proper noun.

 :facepalm: https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Robert_Stephenson_and_Co:_Locomotion_No._1

A mobile Beam engine, that I have castings for  :whoohoo:

Jo

Fascinating!  I always learn so much on this forum! :)
Thanks Jo,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on August 28, 2017, 08:59:38 PM
I put a slip eccentric on "Robby" my Roberts Mechanism engine. The discussion starts here:

http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,5293.msg107925.html#msg107925

It worked fine, but I disabled it because it caused a distinctive knock that I didn't want to be heard when showing it. I don't know if that's common to slip eccentrics or just my own implementation.
I never really put any effort into trying to remedy it.

--Tim

I remember that build Tim!   But it doesn't show any completed pictures.  You should post one.

I could see how a slip eccentric might result in a knock.  In fact, when I rotate the drive shaft by hand, at a certain point in the rotation (at least in one direction) the eccentric pin disengages from the drive collar as gravity pulls it down. Then the flat on the collar catches up with it and things continue as expected.  That could certainly cause a tick!  I'll have to listen next time and see if I hear any knocking.

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: crueby on August 28, 2017, 10:27:26 PM
I put a slip eccentric on "Robby" my Roberts Mechanism engine. The discussion starts here:

http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,5293.msg107925.html#msg107925 (http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,5293.msg107925.html#msg107925)

It worked fine, but I disabled it because it caused a distinctive knock that I didn't want to be heard when showing it. I don't know if that's common to slip eccentrics or just my own implementation.
I never really put any effort into trying to remedy it.

--Tim

I remember that build Tim!   But it doesn't show any completed pictures.  You should post one.

I could see how a slip eccentric might result in a knock.  In fact, when I rotate the drive shaft by hand, at a certain point in the rotation (at least in one direction) the eccentric pin disengages from the drive collar as gravity pulls it down. Then the flat on the collar catches up with it and things continue as expected.  That could certainly cause a tick!  I'll have to listen next time and see if I hear any knocking.

Kim
I wonder if a small spring loaded detent would do the trick to keep it from slipping?
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on September 03, 2017, 01:16:38 AM
I put a slip eccentric on "Robby" my Roberts Mechanism engine. The discussion starts here:

http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,5293.msg107925.html#msg107925 (http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,5293.msg107925.html#msg107925)

It worked fine, but I disabled it because it caused a distinctive knock that I didn't want to be heard when showing it. I don't know if that's common to slip eccentrics or just my own implementation.
I never really put any effort into trying to remedy it.

--Tim

I remember that build Tim!   But it doesn't show any completed pictures.  You should post one.

I could see how a slip eccentric might result in a knock.  In fact, when I rotate the drive shaft by hand, at a certain point in the rotation (at least in one direction) the eccentric pin disengages from the drive collar as gravity pulls it down. Then the flat on the collar catches up with it and things continue as expected.  That could certainly cause a tick!  I'll have to listen next time and see if I hear any knocking.

Kim
I wonder if a small spring loaded detent would do the trick to keep it from slipping?
Maybe, Chris, but I don't think I'll be worrying about that at this point. :)
But it is a good thought!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on September 03, 2017, 01:24:28 AM
Today, I made the Blast Pipe.  My understanding of this part is that it channels the exhaust from the cylinder up the smokestack in such a way as to help increase the movement of the hot air from the fire box past the boiler.  I never knew that this existed, so this is all fascinating new territory for me!

Each individual piece of the Blast Pipe is, in itself, quite simple, so I didn’t end up taking to many pictures of that.  But the overall fabrication was quite extensive! At least for me it was!

I started with the elbow, which was just a piece of 1/4" brass rod.  Using the lathe, I put a 1/8” hole in it for 3/8” of an inch, and cut it off at 1/2".  Then took it to the mill and put a 5/32” hole about half way through.  I didn’t have a 5/32” Ball End mill, so I used a flat end to make the initial hole, and switched to a 1/8” Ball End to help ease the 90 degree corner in the bottom.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/046a-BlastPipe-1-DSC_3305.jpg)

After that, I cut a length of 1/8” brass tube, and 5/32” brass tube.  I took notches out of each pipe so it wouldn’t interfere with the elbow.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/046a-BlastPipe-2-DSC_3307.jpg)

Now to silver solder them together!  Sounds so easy, doesn’t it? As it usually goes with me, the first time around didn’t end up so pretty.  I melted the 5/32” pipe.  And clearly, I used WAY too much solder!  I was struggling, can you tell?
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/046a-BlastPipe-3-DSC_3310.jpg)

So I fired up the torch again and unsoldered the 5/32” tube out of the elbow, and cleaned it up again.  Then made another length of 5/32” tube and tried that joint again.  SO much better the second time!  I was so happy with it that I completely forgot to take any pictures.

After some clean-up, I went to reduce the diameter of the blast end of the pipe.  I wasn’t sure how to do this – I kept looking for some way to build a cone, or something that I could use to reduce the diameter of the tube, but in the end, I used a pair of flat nosed pilers, lightly squeezing and turning the tube at the same time:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/046a-BlastPipe-4-DSC_3313.jpg)

I annealed the brass tube several times during this process, and it seemed to work OK.

Next, I needed to add a bend in the Blast Pipe.  So I took a scrap piece of aluminum bar and cut an 1/8” wide channel in it, deep enough to give me the radius I was looking for (1/4”).  Then after annealing the brass tube again, I bent the tube using that channel. It again took me 3-4 annealings to get the full 90 degree bend.  Unfortunately, I didn’t take a picture of that either.

And even more unfortunately, I made the bend the wrong direction. :facepalm2: It should be the other way!  :insane:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/046a-BlastPipe-5-DSC_3316.jpg)

So, more annealing and bending to get it back ‘mostly’ straight, and then more annealing and bending to get it bending the correct direction.  But I got there!

With that finally done, I still needed to add the mounting flange.  This was nothing more than a 9/16” brass washer I made.  I drilled the two mounting holes, and then silver soldered it to the Elbow of the Blast Pipe.  This time I did it much better, the first time!  Still, too much solder, but MUCH better than before!
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/046a-BlastPipe-6-DSC_3318.jpg)

With the brass mounting flange freshly annealed by the soldering process, I put the blast pipe in place and carefully formed the flange to the side of the boiler.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/046a-BlastPipe-7-DSC_3320.jpg)

And finally, after some significant cleanup, here’s the shot of the completed Blast Pipe:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/046a-BlastPipe-8-DSC_3324.jpg)

And this is what it looks like inside the boiler casing – its pointing straight up at the center of the smoke stack opening, just like its supposed to!
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/046a-BlastPipe-9-DSC_3336.jpg)

I still need to drill the mounting holes in the boiler casing, but it was too hot in the garage and I needed to go in for the day.

Thanks for stopping by!
Kim

Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on September 03, 2017, 01:29:15 AM
That looks good to me Kim, despite the initial problem with the 5/32" tubing. Nicely done!!

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Dave Otto on September 03, 2017, 03:00:32 AM
Nicely done Kim!


Dave
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on September 03, 2017, 06:12:09 AM
Thanks Bill and Dave!

I think I'm going to get this silver soldering thing down eventually.   Practice helps, but I still I always screw up my first attempt.  I think I have to be a little more aggressive in heating the part.  I am so focused on NOT melting things that I am too gentle with it and all the flux has boiled away by the time the parts get up to temp.

The reason I melted that part on my first attempt is because the flux had all boiled off  and things were starting to oxidize. So, when the solder finally melted, it wouldn't go down between the parts because of the oxidization.  I tried applying more flux, which helped some, but I had to do several times, and kept adding a little more solder (which I'm sure you could see).  And in the end, I fussed around with it so much, that melting that thin tubing just happened.  The second attempt, I was more aggressive with the heat, and it worked so much better.  There's a fine line between getting the brass hot enough to melt the solder, but not so hot it starts to met itself.  But being TOO gentle with the heat isn't the answer either.

I'm getting there!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on September 04, 2017, 10:44:05 PM
In my last update, I made a comment about the bending jig I made for the 1/8” brass tube, but I didn’t have a picture of it. Well, here it is.  I used gentle thumb pressure to bend it around the jig. When the bending got hard, I annealed the brass again.  Not high tech, but it seemed to work pretty well.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/047a-AdmissionTee-13-DSC_3370.jpg)


OK, on with today’s update.

I left off needing to attach the blast pipe to the boiler casing.  So, after marking the location for the holes, I mounted the unit to the mill, to drill and tap the 2-56 holes:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/047a-AdmissionTee-01-DSC_3340.jpg)

Then I attached the blast pipe.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/047a-AdmissionTee-02-DSC_3342.jpg)

From the top, it looks about right.  It’s closer to center than this picture makes it look due to perspective.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/047a-AdmissionTee-03-DSC_3345.jpg)

Continuing with the theme of the exhaust system, I moved next to the Exhaust Pipe.  The only real work to do here was to make the exhaust pipe flange which would help connect the exhaust pipe to the exhaust port in the cylinder.

This was just a little piece of 1/16” x 3/16” brass.  Unfortunately, I only had 1/4" wide brass, so the first step was to mill it down to 3/16” wide, like so:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/047a-AdmissionTee-04-DSC_3347.jpg)

With that, I cut it to length and drilled the holes.  Unfortunately, I drilled them wrong. So, having made this excellent practice piece, I repeated the procedure for the real piece, drilling in the correct locations the second time.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/047a-AdmissionTee-05-DSC_3349.jpg)

Then using the filing buttons, I rounded the ends of the mounting flange.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/047a-AdmissionTee-06-DSC_3353.jpg)

I also needed a short length of 5/32” tube to slip over the 1/8” exhaust tube – this is to help with the slip joint into the blast pipe.  Nothing of note here other than I wanted to show you my little X-acto miter box.  It’s something I picked up in past years when doing other modeling work. It’s really great for cutting this thin walled tubing or other small parts to length.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/047a-AdmissionTee-07-DSC_3354.jpg)

The last step for the exhaust pipe is to silver solder the pieces together.  However, since I’m out of 1/8” brass tube, I can’t do that yet.  So setting these pieces aside, I started on the Steam Admission Tee.  This will connect the steam supply from the throttle (yet to be made) to the steam chest and the displacement lubricator (also yet to be made).

The Steam Admission Tee is fairly simple.  It’s a 1/4” brass block with a 10-32 threaded rod sticking out the bottom (which will connect to the steam chest).

Here’s the 1/4" brass top of the T being made.  I drilled the bolt holes, and one steam hole in the center:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/047a-AdmissionTee-08-DSC_3357.jpg)

Rotated it 90 degrees, then drilled and tapped a 10-32 hole half way through.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/047a-AdmissionTee-09-DSC_3358.jpg)

And finally, using a short piece of 3/16” brass, I threaded it 10-32, drilled a 3/32” hole through its center, then cut it off to length:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/047a-AdmissionTee-10-DSC_3362.jpg)

And here are the pieces of my Steam Admission Tee:  You can see that my 3/32” hole in the center really wandered there!  I’ve heard about that from others, but haven’t see it so dramatic in my parts before!  Well, this end will go in the Tee so that you don’t see that!
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/047a-AdmissionTee-11-DSC_3363.jpg)

And here we are, assembled.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/047a-AdmissionTee-12-DSC_3368.jpg)

I need to sliver solder the two pieces of the Tee also, but’s getting hot outside and I didn’t want to open up the garage doors (I like to have good ventilation when I’m using the torch.)  So, I’ll do that another time.

That’s my update for the day.  Besides the soldering on these parts, I’ve still got quite a few other parts to make for the steam supply; Displacement lubricator, Throttle, several more pieces of piping, etc. And eventually, I’ll have to get to the boiler too!  Still a long ways to go for me on this little project.  If I were Chris, it would be done tomorrow.  But I’m me, and I’ve got many months (if not years) left in this journey!

Thanks for following along,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Dave Otto on September 05, 2017, 12:56:42 AM
Nice update Kim!

If you don't have any pick up some solvent based white out and coat the threads with it to keep the silver solder from wicking where you don't want it.
If you already know this, well never mind then. :Lol:

Dave
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on September 05, 2017, 01:23:12 AM
Good point Dave!  I picked up some stuff like that a while back when it came up on someone else's thread - Some stuff in a green fat-pen-looking bottle.  That should do the trick! Thanks for mentioning it.  I'll have to make sure and use that when I solder up this part.  I keep forgetting about that!

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: crueby on September 05, 2017, 02:30:16 AM
Good point Dave!  I picked up some stuff like that a while back when it came up on someone else's thread - Some stuff in a green fat-pen-looking bottle.  That should do the trick! Thanks for mentioning it.  I'll have to make sure and use that when I solder up this part.  I keep forgetting about that!

Kim
That's Nicrobraze, works great.


 I've never used whiteout, at least some versions of it turn glassy and are very hard toremove, pickle solution doesn't touch it.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Don1966 on September 05, 2017, 03:43:13 PM
I am behind on your build Kim but just caught up. Looks like your silver soldering skills are Improving a lot. You should be getting a lot more comfortable doing it now. Nice work all the way around buddy and the tractor is starting to look sharp.... :ThumbsUp:


 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: 10KPete on September 05, 2017, 11:25:44 PM
Hi Kim,

I don't remember what sort of torch you're using....  Twer it me, I would use an average propane torch and a small heat-trap type fire brick hearth. Pre-place the flux and bits of braze then heat it fast with a big, soft flame. Always heat the big parts, not the small ones.

Little bits like those should heat and flow in less that two minutes, probably less.

Still following and still loving what you're doing! :P

Pete
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on September 06, 2017, 04:03:41 AM
Thanks Don and Pete!

I don't remember what sort of torch you're using....  Twer it me, I would use an average propane torch and a small heat-trap type fire brick hearth. Pre-place the flux and bits of braze then heat it fast with a big, soft flame. Always heat the big parts, not the small ones.

Little bits like those should heat and flow in less that two minutes, probably less.

Thanks for the tips Pete.
I'm using Oxy-Acetylene - I know it's a bit hot, but I feel I have much better control over the flame.  I have a "Bernzomatic" torch that uses MAP Pro gas, but the flame is so big that I don't feel I have any control over what is being heated, and it tends to melt the solder directly, rather than heating the parts to melt the solder.

It seems that part of the trick in silver soldiering is figuring out how to set up the parts to be soldered such that you can find a place to heat that isn't directly on the solder - some back side or underside that you can heat up.  With some of these small pieces, I've found that difficult.

With a hearth, I've had a hard time getting to the back side of a part to heat it up away from the joint.  I can't get the heat back there!

But these are all the fun challenges, aren't the? :)

Thank you!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Ken K on September 06, 2017, 04:58:13 AM
  For small parts, I use a sliver solder paste. There are a lot brands but I use Fusion  brazing paste. It works great, for things like soldering a 1/16", wire, to a brass plate.
 Has anyone else, use this type of solder?
 Ken K
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: 10KPete on September 06, 2017, 05:18:06 AM
O/A can be much too intense for small parts. But the same heat control must be used for any source. You're gonna need 'X' btu per... to bring a certain mass up at a given rate. Those btu want to be put in fast, but evenly and, yes, carefully. For welding, a tight, intense flame is wanted. For this sort of work, a big, soft, spread out flame is what I like. That flame will still have it's hot spot so you can well control what you're doing but the big flame gives you lots of heat from all around very quickly without having the heat get out of hand.

You mention positioning. Yep that's bear all righty. At times. And always keep the fire off the joint/flux/alloy. Heat the back sides...yep. That's partially positioning, part design, and part cussedness.

Don't forget that many assemblies lend themselves to being tied with heavy iron wire to hold the parts while brazing.

Imagination will overcome!!

Oh, to answer Ken's question: Yes, I love solder and brazing pastes. Used many types and brands over the decades and have rarely had problems. Usually of my own  making!! :slap:



 :cheers:
Pete
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: crueby on September 06, 2017, 05:18:37 AM
  For small parts, I use a sliver solder paste. There are a lot brands but I use Fusion  brazing paste. It works great, for things like soldering a 1/16", wire, to a brass plate.
 Has anyone else, use this type of solder?
 Ken K
Tried one like it years ago, only problem with it was it would dry out, no way to reconstitute it like plain flux. How is the Fusion paste for that, is it just water or some solvent?
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on September 11, 2017, 02:57:00 AM
This weekend I assembled the whole tractor up to my maximum level of progress.  I had an opportunity to show off my project this weekend and I thought it looked more cool as a complete unit rather than as some wheels here, a steering wheel there and such. The demo went well, so I decided to record it for you all to see to.

If I were smart, I’d have had someone record it while I as showing it yesterday, but that would have taken forethought on my part.  Instead, I tried to record it myself in my garage.  Besides being a bit too close, I also found it challenging to run the video camera and the tractor at the same time.  I have a new-found respect for those of you who can do such good ‘running’ videos of moving items.  It’s hard!  And I apologize in advance for the poor production quality.  But I was happy regardless!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGZvS51xT-c

After my movie debut, I continued on with soldering the parts from last time.  It mostly went pretty good.

Here’s the Tee, all slathered up and ready to go.  I did use some of that Nicrobraze in the threads to help keep the solder out.  Seemed to work well!
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/047b-AdmissionTee-01-DSC_3372.jpg)

And after the soldering:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/047b-AdmissionTee-02-DSC_3374.jpg)

Then on to the Exhaust Pipe.  Before:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/047b-AdmissionTee-03-DSC_3376.jpg)

And after:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/047b-AdmissionTee-04-DSC_3378.jpg)

After pickling for a bit, I cleaned them up and cut the pipe off even with the flange.  Here’s how they look after some clean up:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/047b-AdmissionTee-05-DSC_3383.jpg)

Now, to shape the exhaust pipe.  I put it in place, and marked where I wanted the bend to end up:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/047b-AdmissionTee-06-DSC_3386.jpg)

Then I made a bending jig about the right size:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/047b-AdmissionTee-09-DSC_3396.jpg)

And started bending:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/047b-AdmissionTee-07-DSC_3388.jpg)

Then finished bending.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/047b-AdmissionTee-08-DSC_3391.jpg)

It was great!  The only problem?  I’d bent it 90 degrees the wrong direction.  You’d think I’d learn! :facepalm:  So, I unbent it, and did it again. At least I got it the right direction this time!

I bolted it in place to make sure the bend was correct, and to mark the correct length.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/047b-AdmissionTee-10-DSC_3398.jpg)

After cutting to length, I proceeded to botch the soldering job on the other end.  I guess its OK, but you can see where I melted part of that 5/32” sleeve around it.  I’m wondering if that 5/32” stuff is slightly different brass alloy to everything else I’m using. Every time I try to solder it, it melts :(
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/047b-AdmissionTee-11-DSC_3400.jpg)

Well, it is what it is at the moment.  If I decide I feel bad enough about, I may do it again.  At this point, I’m kind more interested in just moving on.  But we’ll see.  Sometimes sleeping on it makes things more clear.

And here is my parting beauty shot of everything together, including the Exhaust Pipe and the Admission Tee.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/047b-AdmissionTee-12-DSC_3404.jpg)

Thanks for checking in!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Dave Otto on September 11, 2017, 03:03:50 AM
Wonderful progress Kim!
I enjoyed the video.


Dave
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: MJM460 on September 11, 2017, 05:09:55 AM
Well done Kim, always great to see it run after all the work.

Now for steam!

MJM460
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: 10KPete on September 11, 2017, 05:42:01 AM
It lives!!  Magnificent!!

Pete
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on September 11, 2017, 09:22:52 AM

Really looks good.

Thomas
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Don1966 on September 11, 2017, 04:48:36 PM
Damn Kim that's colder then sitting on a block of ice. Bet your a happy camper buddy. Well done and getting closer to the finally....I.......like....... :Love:


 :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: scc on September 11, 2017, 05:23:35 PM
Great job Kim.    It looks really well :ThumbsUp:     Don't apologize for the video, It's great......I've not managed a video yet :ShakeHead

Regards      Terry
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on September 11, 2017, 09:05:38 PM
Thank's to each of you for the kind words!
Yes, I'm quite tickled to see it running across my messy floor.  Quite exciting! :)
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on September 11, 2017, 09:17:02 PM
Love the video Kim and that last family shot too. You have to be pleased with that  for sure!!!

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on September 11, 2017, 09:23:28 PM
Thanks Bill,
Yeah, it's pretty exciting when it starts to actually look like something! :)
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on September 11, 2017, 09:25:57 PM
And RUNS!!!  :pinkelephant: :cartwheel: Not that I had any doubts :)

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on September 11, 2017, 11:36:16 PM
As the kids say these days: " dude, that's off the chain" :lolb:. Great looking tractor and a sweet runner to boot.  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:. Great journey Kim.

Cletus
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on September 12, 2017, 04:59:55 AM
Thanks Eric! :)
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on September 17, 2017, 12:29:13 AM
This weeks mission: Condensate Release Valves

These are made out of all brass.  I started with some 3/16” rod for the body.  I drilled a 1/16” hole, just under 1/2" deep.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/048a-ConcensateReleaseValve-01-DSC_3407.jpg)

Then drilled and tapped 4-40 threads about 7/32” deep following that same hole.  This will be for the screw to close the valve.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/048a-ConcensateReleaseValve-02-DSC_3409.jpg)

After parting off the body, I flipped it around in the collet, turned it down for a 4-40 OD, and threaded it.  This will connect into the cylinder.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/048a-ConcensateReleaseValve-03-DSC_3411.jpg)

Next, I drilled a hole in one side and silver soldered a 1/2" length of 3/32” brass tube in place.  I am quite pleased with the soldering job I did on these parts.   It went almost painlessly.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/048a-ConcensateReleaseValve-04-DSC_3414.jpg)

After pickling and clean-up, here are the two completed valve bodies.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/048a-ConcensateReleaseValve-05-DSC_3417.jpg)

Now for the valve screw.  In the plans, Rudy calls this the Pintle.  I’ve only ever heard that term (pintle) used for the rudder pin on a ship.  But Rudy uses it here.  Is that a common usage?

Anyway, to make the shut-off for the valve, I started with 5/16” brass rod, turned down a very short length to an undisclosed diameter.  Rudy doesn’t specify this.  So I just made it small enough to allow steam to pass by the 4-40 threads, but large enough it will close a 1/16” hole.  I used 0.075” for the diameter.  Then filed a cone shape at the end.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/048a-ConcensateReleaseValve-06-DSC_3422.jpg)

Next, I turned another length to 0.112”, the size for 4-40, and threaded it, like so:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/048a-ConcensateReleaseValve-07-DSC_3424.jpg)

I knurled a bit of the 5/16” rod, then parted the screw off from the parent stock.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/048a-ConcensateReleaseValve-08-DSC_3426.jpg)

Here’s a shot of all the parts I made today.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/048a-ConcensateReleaseValve-09-DSC_3428.jpg)

And what they look like assembled.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/048a-ConcensateReleaseValve-10-DSC_3430.jpg)

I went to install the valves on the cylinder, but discovered that I’m going to have to disassemble things to get them on.  The spouts stick out too far to allow the valves to rotate.  I can’t get more than a half a turn before I hit either the support or the exhaust pipe.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/048a-ConcensateReleaseValve-11-DSC_3433.jpg)

So, that’s where I decided to stop for the day. I’ll get them installed sometime though.  And I tested them with some compressed air and they seem to hold pretty well when closed (as well as I can tell anyway!).

Thanks for coming by for a visit!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on September 17, 2017, 01:17:09 AM
Those look great Kim. You are really getting this soldering down too on these small parts. Bit of a bummer as to having to disassemble to install them but no biggie. Well done!!

Bill

P.S. I miss my visits to Portland
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on September 17, 2017, 01:52:00 AM
Thanks Bill!
Well, if you ever decided to come back up here for a visit, be sure to let me know and we can get together for dinner or something :)
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Roger B on September 22, 2017, 06:22:32 PM
Still following along  :wine1: Excellent progress  :praise2:  :praise2: but I couldn't see the video  :(
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on September 22, 2017, 07:36:43 PM
Thanks Roger!

Hmm.... not sure why you couldn't see the video - it's marked public.  Here's the direct link if you want to give that a try:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=56&v=eGZvS51xT-c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=56&v=eGZvS51xT-c)

Sorry it's not working for you.
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Roger B on September 22, 2017, 07:46:40 PM
That link worked thank you, but it still doesn't appear for me on MEM. Looks good to me, you should be proud of that  :praise2:  :praise2:  :wine1:
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on September 22, 2017, 08:01:49 PM
Thank you Roger! :)

Roger, are you able to see other YouTube videos linked from MEM? Or is it just mine?

Is anyone else having trouble with the embedded video link?
Here's exact same video link embedded with the youtube tags:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGZvS51xT-c

And a direct link embedded with the URL tags:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=56&v=eGZvS51xT-c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=56&v=eGZvS51xT-c)

They should both show the exact same video.
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Roger B on September 22, 2017, 08:12:13 PM
Hi Kim, to me it is not there. I have attached a screen shot. I can see other peoples videos.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on September 22, 2017, 10:32:34 PM
Interesting.  You're using Internet Explorer.  When I try it in IE, I see the same thing as you - no YouTube video box. :(

But it works fine in Chrome.

I did a google search on this and it seems to be a common problem in IE11.  One solution that someone said worked for them was to turn off the Tracking  protections - at least for Google.  I'm not my own administrator at work so I can't try this solution here (it won't let me change that setting).  But you could give it a try and see if it works.  Or try a different browser?

I'm surprised it would work for any embedded YouTube link if it doesn't work for mine.

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Roger B on September 23, 2017, 01:12:58 PM
Odd, but that's software  ::) I could see Longboy's and Crueby's videos without problems  :headscratch:
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on September 23, 2017, 05:43:38 PM
I checked Chris's YouTube link and he didn't use the [ youtube]   [ /youtube] tags around his.  So I'm trying that here...

eGZvS51xT-c
Does this work in IE?
Kim

<edit>
Well, I just checked it in IE and it worked for me - go figure.  IE11 doesn't seem to like the [ youtube] tags.  And apparently, you don't need them? You can just toss a youtube URL in there and it magically works.  I didn't know that.  Guess I'll start doing it that way now for all the IE users!

Admins - do we have a special place to keep little tidbits like this, to save others the hassle of debugging it all over again?
</edit>
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on September 23, 2017, 08:25:11 PM
Worked perfect for me.

Thomas
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on September 23, 2017, 10:06:23 PM
Thanks Thomas!
I'll use this method going forward...
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on September 24, 2017, 02:55:37 AM
Next up is the Displacement Lubricator.

All parts of the Displacement Lubricator were made from 360 brass, or brass tube, which I don’t know exactly what it is, but it isn’t 360 brass, I’m pretty sure.  I started by making the plugs; the Drain Plug, made pretty much like the plugs for the Condensate Release Valves, and the Top Plug – for covering the hole where you add the oil.  Since the Top Plug is a little different, I took a few pics of that.

Using 5/16” rod, I turned down a 3/32” length to 1/4" and then threaded it 1/4-28:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/049a-DisplacementLubricator-02-DSC_3438.jpg)

And cut it off.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/049a-DisplacementLubricator-03-DSC_3440.jpg)

Here’s the plugs. Drain Plug on the left, Top Plug on the right.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/049a-DisplacementLubricator-04-DSC_3447.jpg)

Next, I started on the drain for the lubricator.  I cut a length of 3/32” tubing, and a 1/4" piece of 3/16” brass rod with a 3/32” hole about half way through, then set them up for silver soldering.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/049a-DisplacementLubricator-05-DSC_3441.jpg)

This went well!
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/049a-DisplacementLubricator-06-DSC_3444.jpg)

Here it is post pickling.  I didn’t clean it up too much since it will be soldered again soon.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/049a-DisplacementLubricator-07-DSC_3446.jpg)

With it soldered together, I placed it in a 3/16” collet to drill and thread the fat end to take the drain plug.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/049a-DisplacementLubricator-08-DSC_3449.jpg)

Then I drilled a 1/16” hole the rest of the way through into the tube.  This also cleared out any solder that may have ozzed into the end of the tube.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/049a-DisplacementLubricator-09-DSC_3452.jpg)

With the drain end complete, I started work on the rod that connects Displacement Lubricator to the steam.  Rudy said to use 3/32” solid rod and drill a #72 hold through it – he said that anything bigger than #72 will allow too much oil through.  That’s a REALLY small hole to poke through a 1/2" length!  But I took it very slow, used cutting oil and a high speed (1200RMP), and pecked my way through it without breaking the bit.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/049a-DisplacementLubricator-01-DSC_3436.jpg)

Here’s the family shot of the lubricator at the end of my shop time last Sunday.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/049a-DisplacementLubricator-10-DSC_3454.jpg)

I had to wait for this weekend to finish…. (next post)
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on September 24, 2017, 03:00:58 AM
Today I picked up where I left off.  I made a flange for the lubricator and then soldered the rod to the flange.  Here’s the before shot:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/049a-DisplacementLubricator-11-DSC_3456.jpg)

And the after shot.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/049a-DisplacementLubricator-24-DSC_3459.jpg)

The final piece of the Displacement Lubricator is the main body.  This is just a cylinder to hold the oil and all the pieces fabricated so far will connect to the main body.

The body was made from a 1” piece of 5/16” brass rod.  First step was to drill a 3/32” hole for the drain tube.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/049a-DisplacementLubricator-12-DSC_3460.jpg)

After cutting it off at 1” length, I went to the mill and drilled a 3/32” hole for the inlet tube and flange.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/049a-DisplacementLubricator-13-DSC_3462.jpg)

Now to solder the drain into the body.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/049a-DisplacementLubricator-14-DSC_3464.jpg)

While the tube started to sag a little there, the solder joint came out great, and I was able to bend the tube straight quite easily.  Not that I’m keeping score, but that’s THREE for THREE on the silver soldering front! :)
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/049a-DisplacementLubricator-15-DSC_3466.jpg)

Last piece to connect to the body is the inlet tube and flange.  This one was more challenging to setup, but I thought I had it.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/049a-DisplacementLubricator-16-DSC_3467.jpg)

Pride cometh before a fall they say.  It took me 3 tries to get this joint.  First try, the round bar I had (stupidly) used to hold things in place rolled off as the parts started to get hot.  So, I went to a different arrangement.  Next try the solder balled up and I didn’t get a good joint.  So I cleaned it up and went in for a third try.  This one was a winner!
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/049a-DisplacementLubricator-17-DSC_3472.jpg)

Some pickle, some cleanup, and here’s the family shot up to now:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/049a-DisplacementLubricator-18-DSC_3474.jpg)

Next, I had to drill out the center of the lubricator.  I used a #3 drill and went nearly to the bottom of the 1” lubricator body.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/049a-DisplacementLubricator-19-DSC_3476.jpg)

After that, I used a 1/16” drill to make sure the drain tube connected to the lubricator body.  Then I tapped 1/4-28 threads for the Top Cap.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/049a-DisplacementLubricator-21-DSC_3481.jpg)

And finally, I took off the top thread or two using 1/4" drill so that the Top Cap would sit on closer – the threads on that top cap don’t go down all the way to the shoulder they way I’d like, but this took care of that.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/049a-DisplacementLubricator-22-DSC_3482.jpg)

I also had to clean up the #72 hole to and poke it all the way through to the body.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/049a-DisplacementLubricator-20-DSC_3478.jpg)

And, with that, the Displacement Lubricator was complete!
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/049a-DisplacementLubricator-23-DSC_3484.jpg)

There were a lot of steps for a seemingly simple part, but I am super pumped about how this came out!  It’s a very pretty thing.

Thanks for following along,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: crueby on September 24, 2017, 03:35:01 AM
Nicely done on the lubricator! Thats a different style one than I'm used to, which have a the steam tube going all the way through the body, with the tiny hole in that tube inside the body. Seems like both ways should work as well, the way yours is set up is easier to plumb in though. Adding that to my bag of tricks. Just wish I could remember whats in the bag!
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on September 24, 2017, 05:36:35 AM
Thanks Chris,
I don't have much to compare this one to since this is the only displacement lubricator I've ever made.  But it looks like it should work.  That hole's awfully tiny, but that's what Rudy says works, so we're going to give it a try! :)
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on September 24, 2017, 01:08:36 PM
Well done on a very intricate little part Kim. Nice pictures as always too!

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: crueby on September 24, 2017, 01:39:05 PM
Yup, the hole does want to be that small. In the inline lubricator style it is usually 3 more drill sizes smaller than yours. Too big and it pumps in to much oil.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on September 24, 2017, 03:34:43 PM
Thanks Bill!

Yup, the hole does want to be that small. In the inline lubricator style it is usually 3 more drill sizes smaller than yours. Too big and it pumps in to much oil.
Yikes!  I wasn't sure I was going to survive that #72 hole!  Going to something smaller is incredible.  So, did you have to drill a LONG (deep?) hole that small?  I drilled  all the way through a 1/2" length of rod.  Would a small hole in a restrictor plate work equally well?

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: crueby on September 24, 2017, 03:55:53 PM
Oh no, shallow hole. On the cross tube type, the steam tube runs through the top of the oil reservoir, so all you need is a single hole through the top of the tube wall, just the thickness of the tube wall. That acts as the restrictor. In the attached picture the tiny hole is the white bit in the tube, just under the filler cap.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Dave Otto on September 24, 2017, 04:07:51 PM
Nicely done Kim!


Dave
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: 90LX_Notch on September 24, 2017, 06:47:19 PM
I'm just catching up Kim.  Great work and congrats on it moving on air.

-Bob
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on September 25, 2017, 01:43:50 AM
Thanks Dave and Bob!
Appreciate the support,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on September 25, 2017, 01:46:22 AM
The next piece was small, which is good, because I didn’t have a lot of time in the shop today.
I made the Steam Pipe which connects the Admission Tee to the Throttle Valve (this will be the next part).

This pipe is a 1/8” brass tube with a flange at each end.

So, first I made the two flanges, just like several before, and cut a length of 1/8” tube.  Here are the parts, posing for a family picture before they’re silver soledered.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/050a-SteamPipe-1-DSC_3485.jpg)

And, after a fairly calm session of silver soldering, and some bending, here’s the final product:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/050a-SteamPipe-2-DSC_3488.jpg)

The pipe will be bent to the final shape once the pieces are all mounted into place, but this is its approximate shape.

Next up, the Throttle Valve.
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Don1966 on September 26, 2017, 05:31:07 PM
Nice work Kim your solder skills are really looking great..... :ThumbsUp:


 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on September 27, 2017, 12:03:26 AM
Thanks Don!
They are certainly improving... There wasn't much room to go the other way  :Lol:
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: mal webber on September 27, 2017, 02:32:31 PM
Hi Kim, just caught up on your engine build and I must say your engine is looking really nice, last time I looked in was a while ago ,so a very good read and catch up.

Mal
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on September 28, 2017, 05:46:17 AM
Hi Mal,
Thanks!  Much appreciated! :)

How is your Minnie coming?  I'd love to see some pictures of where your at now.
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: mal webber on September 28, 2017, 08:36:36 PM
Hi Kim, not touched it since my last post on here hoping to get going at it again soon.

Mal.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on September 29, 2017, 05:41:55 AM
OK, no guilt, just interest! :)
Looking forward to seeing your progress whenever it happens.  The many other facets of life can get in the way of hobbies, can't they?
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on October 01, 2017, 01:48:20 AM
Today I started on the Throttle.

I began with the lever.  A simple piece made from 1/16” brass plate.  I cut the 1/8” x 11/16” piece, sized it up, then drilled a hole in the end.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/051a-Throttle-01-DSC_3490.jpg)

I shaped the top of the handle with a file, but forgot to take a picture of that.

The throttle disk came from a 1/2" brass rod.  Drilled #43 in the center, for the retaining screw:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/051a-Throttle-02-DSC_3493.jpg)

Then parted off:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/051a-Throttle-03-DSC_3495.jpg)

The disk was transferred to the rotary table on the mill, and I started carving the steam channel.  I made a shallow cut with a 3/32” mill:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/051a-Throttle-04-DSC_3498.jpg)

Then deepened the channel with a 1/16” ball end mill.  I didn’t have a 3/32” ball end, so I made do.  I went full depth with the 1/16” in the center, then did about half depth 1/64” to each side.  Should make a find steam channel.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/051a-Throttle-05-DSC_3501.jpg)

With that done, I aligned the throttle disk as best I could, and milled a 1/16” wide slot to mount the throttle handle.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/051a-Throttle-06-DSC_3505.jpg)

Here are the two pieces.  You can see that I knocked off the corners of the handle so that it will fit in the round-ended slot I just cut in the disk.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/051a-Throttle-07-DSC_3507.jpg)

To make the throttle body, I started with a 5/8” square piece of 1/4" brass.  After squaring it up, I drilled a 3/16” hole 1/4" deep for the steam inlet pipe.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/051a-Throttle-10-DSC_3512.jpg)

And for the steam inlet pipe, I used a 3/16” piece of brass rod, and threaded 3/8” of it 10-32:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/051a-Throttle-08-DSC_3509.jpg)

Then drilled a 3/32” hole most of the way thorough the 1 1/4" length.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/051a-Throttle-09-DSC_3511.jpg)

And here are the pieces of the throttle body, ready for soldering.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/051a-Throttle-11-DSC_3516.jpg)

No prep pictures this time (he’s getting pretty cocky, isn’t he? :)) but here’s the ‘after’ shot of silver soldering the throttle disk and handle.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/051a-Throttle-12-DSC_3519.jpg)

And after silver soldering the throttle body:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/051a-Throttle-13-DSC_3520.jpg)

After some pickling and cleaning, I ended up with nearly presentable parts!
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/051a-Throttle-14-DSC_3522.jpg)

I won’t get any time to play tomorrow, so competing the throttle will probably be next weekend’s goal.

Thanks for looking,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on October 01, 2017, 07:44:46 PM
More than presentable Kim. They look great to me!! Nicely done.

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on October 02, 2017, 06:01:41 AM
Thanks Bill.  I'm getting better at this silver soldering thing.  But it's still quite a challenge for me!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on October 08, 2017, 12:57:33 AM
Moving forward with the throttle from where I left off last week, I dilled the steam holes and the threaded hole to mount the throttle disk.  I was very careful to be sure I did it correctly – one of the seam holes was a through hole (the steam output) and the other was only half way, to connect with the steam inlet pipe.  Then I tapped the threaded hole:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/051b-ThrottleValve-1-DSC_3525.jpg)

Then I flipped it over and drilled and tapped the holes for the steam pipe mounting flange.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/051b-ThrottleValve-2-DSC_3527.jpg)

With that, I assembled the throttle valve.  Then I got all excited and attached all the various pieces I’ve made over the last few weeks onto the tractor.  Here’s a few family shots.

This first one shows the Throttle Valve.  The steam inlet tube will eventually connect into the boiler.  But for now, it has a plastic hose connecting it to the air supply.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/051b-ThrottleValve-4-DSC_3533.jpg)

The second one here showcases the Condensate Release Valves.  And they even seem to work the way they are supposed to! :)
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/051b-ThrottleValve-3-DSC_3530.jpg)

Third, we have the Displacement Lubricator, proudly resting in its designated spot, ready to dispense oil into the system.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/051b-ThrottleValve-5-DSC_3536.jpg)

And finally, the whole tractor. I’ve got it setup on blocks so I can play with the throttle without worrying about it jumping off the table.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/051b-ThrottleValve-6-DSC_3538.jpg)

Now, here’s a short vide I took demonstrating that the Throttle Valve actually does adjust the speed of the engine, at least on air. I assume the same principal should apply when running on steam.
iIvxEk5drfQ
I’m quite excited that the throttle valve doesn’t leak (not much anyway).  You can hear little bit of air escaping, but not very much!

All in all, I’m quite pleased with how well it all works!
Thanks for stopping by to check out my progress,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: crueby on October 08, 2017, 01:18:57 AM
Excellent!!


 :popcorn:
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on October 08, 2017, 01:44:40 AM
You should be well pleased with that Kim. It has been such fun watching it all come together to this point too.

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on October 08, 2017, 02:28:27 AM
Thanks Chris and Bill!   :pinkelephant:
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Steamer5 on October 08, 2017, 02:32:17 PM
Hi Kim,
 That looking good!! Steam up time not to far away now!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: 90LX_Notch on October 08, 2017, 06:49:04 PM
Sweet!

-Bob
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Dave Otto on October 08, 2017, 07:00:10 PM
Nice progress Kim!


Dave
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on October 08, 2017, 10:59:27 PM
Thanks Kerrin, Bob and Dave,

Appreciate the support!

Steam up is getting closer, but I fear I'm still a goodly ways off.  At my rate of progress I'm sure its many months off yet.  I'm getting excited, but I'm sure it's like watching a glacier melt :)

But I'll get there eventually!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on October 08, 2017, 11:10:25 PM
My kind of project Kim. Most of mine are the same way  ;)

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on October 08, 2017, 11:24:33 PM
Thanks Bill!
You are all so very patient with me.  It is appreciated!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: 10KPete on October 09, 2017, 12:44:58 AM
I remember the first rivets.... You've come a long way!!

 :cheers:

Pete
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on October 09, 2017, 12:51:48 AM
Thanks Pete!  Me too :)

That was over 2 years ago. My first post on this build was in late August, but I really started in early June when I was compiling a complete Bill of Materials from the plans (no, the plans don't contain a BOM) and starting to order what I thought I'd need. (BTW, my original BOM was pretty good - I've only run across a couple of errors.)

I've leaned a LOT doing this build, and you guys have provided patient tutoring the whole way!  I couldn't have gotten this far on my own.

Thank you!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Don1966 on October 16, 2017, 05:03:50 PM
Awesome Kim very good progress and work.... :ThumbsUp:

 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on October 16, 2017, 05:20:05 PM
Thanks Don!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Roger B on October 16, 2017, 10:14:23 PM
I'm still following along  :wine1:  Looking good  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on October 22, 2017, 12:50:33 AM
Thanks Roger!  Appreciate your encouragement!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on October 22, 2017, 12:51:39 AM
With the engine working, I will now shift my focus to the steam plant.  The first item there will be the burners.  There are two of them, and they are designed to use alcohol.

I started by making the cup for the burner.  These were made from a piece of brass tube, silver soldering in a bottom piece.  Here I’m cutting a length of 3/4" brass tube to length for the burner cup.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/052a-Burner-01-DSC_3540.jpg)

Next, I took some 3/4" brass rod cut a 5/8” boss in it to fit in the bottom of the tube.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/052a-Burner-02-DSC_3544.jpg)

Cut it off at 1/16”;
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/052a-Burner-03-DSC_3541.jpg)

Then flipped that part around holding the 5/8” boss in a collet to clean up the bottom side.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/052a-Burner-04-DSC_3545.jpg)

I then administered flux around the bottom of the tube and the plug bottom, and put a circle of silver solder inside the tube against the joint.  Here I am ready to solder:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/052a-Burner-05-DSC_3547.jpg)

The after solder picture.  The first one was successful but I think I over cooked it a bit – I need to get the part to temperature faster.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/052a-Burner-06-DSC_3548.jpg)

Looking down inside the burner cup.  Turns out I soldered the cup to the piece of steel it was sitting on.  I had to heat the steal up to get it to let go of the burner cup!
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/052a-Burner-07-DSC_3549.jpg)

The second one went much better.  Here are the burner cups after a pickle and a clean.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/052a-Burner-08-DSC_3550.jpg)

Then I drilled a hole for the fuel line to the burner.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/052a-Burner-09-DSC_3553.jpg)

Prepped and ready for soldering.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/052a-Burner-10-DSC_3556.jpg)

Soldering completed.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/052a-Burner-11-DSC_3558.jpg)

And here are the completed burners.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/052a-Burner-12-DSC_3560.jpg)

Next up will be the fuel tank.

Thanks for checking in,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on October 22, 2017, 12:58:13 AM
Nice work Kim. What goes inside those burner cups?

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Dave Otto on October 22, 2017, 01:03:30 AM
Nice looking parts Kim!


Dave
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on October 22, 2017, 01:07:57 AM
Thanks Bill and Dave!

... What goes inside those burner cups?

I have a roll of lamp wick that I'm going to pack in there.  I'm just basing it off of the pictures in Rudy's book, but I think it ought to work.
I'm planning to give it a try after I get the fuel tank built and together.  Then get the wick in there and light it up to see how it goes.
I've seen other people using ceramic burners, but that seems to be more for LP.  Would it work for alcohol?

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on October 22, 2017, 01:27:42 AM
Don't think so Kim. I have seen that and used it with propane as you say. Any alcohol burners I have done used some sort of wick as well. It should work well!

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Jon Cameron on October 22, 2017, 09:46:46 PM
I've just spent a happy couple of hours reviewing the 50 odd pages in this thread, I'm impressed with how far you've come, and the ways you have over come the hurdles you've encounted. Keep up the good work ill be following going forward  :cheers:
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on October 22, 2017, 11:01:47 PM
Thanks Jon!
I'm no expert, as you can tell by following my antics here. But with the great advise from everyone on the forum, I've made it a long way and learned a ton in the process! And I have no doubt I'll get it finished someday :)  I'm even planning my next escapade, though its still some ways off yet.

For me, leaning all the new skills and tackling new challenges is what makes this hobby so fun!
Kim

Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on October 23, 2017, 01:17:33 AM
I didn’t get much shop time today, but I was able to get started on the fuel tank.

I created a pattern to fold a single piece into a box of the appropriate size, marked it out on a piece of 22Ga sheet metal, and cut it out.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/053a-FuelTank-1-DSC_3564.jpg)

Next I’ll be drilling the necessary holes, bend it up and solder it into a tank.  (And try to get it not to leak! :) )

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on October 23, 2017, 12:20:11 PM
Nice start on the tank Kim. Will be looking forward to seeing it all bent together and soldered. I noticed on the print that the filler tube extends almost to the bottom of the tank. While this will work, (liquids seeking their own level, etc.) I would think it might make for slower filling unless done under some pressure, but maybe that is what Rudy had in mind.

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on October 23, 2017, 04:52:03 PM
Hi Bill,

I'm not sure, having no experience with a fuel tank design.  But the fill tube has the end cut at a diagonal, so it doesn't really feed directly into the floor of the tank, that might mitigate your worry there.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/053a-FuelTank-FuelTankPlans.JPG)

However, it seems that the real limiter would be the sized of the vent tube.  The vent is 1/8" copper tube, with an ID of 1/16", the Filler is 3/16" copper tube, with a passage of 1/8".  So the filler has 4x the area of the vent.  That seems like the thing that will limit the fill rate.

My concern hasn't been the fill rate though. I'm trying to figure out how I will tell how full the tank is?  How do you keep from overfilling, as overfilling will result in fuel spewing out the vent tube.

And maybe worse, with this design, how do I empty the tank when I'm done playing with the engine?  I don't really want to store it with fuel in it do I?  Or do you just wait for it to evaporate?  Not my ideal solution.

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: crueby on October 23, 2017, 05:05:57 PM
For emptying the tank, could you stick a syringe tube end down the filler tube to draw out the liquid?

I remember that there was a reason for the fill tube to be so far in and the vent to come in from the bottom, but I can't remember what the reason was!  Another case or CRS....   :thinking:
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Flyboy Jim on October 23, 2017, 05:41:36 PM
For emptying the tank, could you stick a syringe tube end down the filler tube to draw out the liquid?

I remember that there was a reason for the fill tube to be so far in and the vent to come in from the bottom, but I can't remember what the reason was!  Another case or CRS....   :thinking:

If it was an aerobatic airplane, it would keep fuel from running out when upside down. Probably doesn't apply to a tractor though.  ;)

Also, I'm not seeing the fuel outlet?

Jim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on October 24, 2017, 03:15:36 AM
For emptying the tank, could you stick a syringe tube end down the filler tube to draw out the liquid?
Sounds like a reasonable suggestion! I'll probably do something like that.
Thanks Chris!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on October 24, 2017, 03:16:43 AM
If it was an aerobatic airplane, it would keep fuel from running out when upside down. Probably doesn't apply to a tractor though.  ;)
I hope it doesn't apply to tractor! :)

Also, I'm not seeing the fuel outlet?
Jim, the fuel outlets are on an adjacent side, so you don't see them in this picture.  the pipes from the burner cups will connect directly into the tank.   Hopefully you'll see that in my next installment!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on October 24, 2017, 11:30:06 AM
Kim, You could always put a drain in the bottom of the tank if room allows. As for how full the tank is, why not just attach a piece of tubing to the vent tube long enough to let the overflow collect in some sort of receptacle, then you know the tank is full.

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: MJM460 on October 24, 2017, 11:39:19 AM
Hi Kim,

Great build and beautifully done.  I have been following quietly along from the beginning.

With the fuel tank, my guess is that the tank is bolted under the frame, you put a little container under the vent and fill until some appears from the vent and is caught in your little container.  No spills like when you over fill with a top filler/vent. And a properly filled tank.  No problem with the vent size, the vapour/ air from the vent during filling is very low density compared with the liquid fuel, so offers less back pressure than liquid for the same volume flow, I am sure the vent size will be adequate.  And it will not cause any problem with a small funnel that you get when vent and filler are combined.

Regarding draining, I suspect the tank is designed to run out before the boiler water is too low.  May need checking during early trial runs.  Then draining is no problem, why stop when you still have water to run.  But otherwise it might be worth adding a bush for a drain plug, or including a removable plug in one of the burner feed tubes.

Thanks for a wonderfully documented thread,

MJM460

P.s Bills post came in while I was typing, similar ideas!
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on October 24, 2017, 08:38:49 PM
Thanks Bill and MJM,

You're correct MJM, the tank is mounted under frame.  I was picturing doing exactly what you said - sliding a low container under the vent tube during filling.

Hand't thought about run time yet, but that is very possible that the tank size was determined by about how long it could burn before you run out of water in the boiler!

Thank you both for the great input,
Kim

Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on October 24, 2017, 11:14:31 PM
Yeah well, hopefully BEFORE you run out if water with some margin to spare  ;)

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on October 25, 2017, 06:54:21 AM
Yeah well, hopefully BEFORE you run out if water with some margin to spare  ;)

Bill

Yes!  Most definitely!  ;D
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on October 29, 2017, 01:11:20 AM
Continuing on with the fuel tank:

I wanted to drill all the holes before I bent things into shape. So, with the sheet metal clamped to the mill, I drilled out the four holes.  Here’s the Fill hole:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/053b-FuelTank-01-DSC_3565.jpg)

And here’s all the holes: One fill, one Vent, and two for the pipes to the burner cups.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/053b-FuelTank-02-DSC_3570.jpg)

A friend of mine has loaned me a small metal machine – one of those 3-in-1 gizmos with a shear, a break, and a set of rollers all on the same piece of equipment.  Seems convenient, so I thought I’d try it out on the fuel tank.

Being the bright guy I am, I realized that the tabs needed to be bent about 1/32” further out than the side they would overlap.  So I decided to bend the tabs first, without bending the side of the box by taking out one the 2.5” blocks in the box break, like so:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/053b-FuelTank-03-DSC_3572.jpg)

And while that seemed like a great idea, it didn’t work so well – I forgot it still had the “V” shaped die on the bottom side, so even though it didn’t have the top forcing it into a crisp bend, it still muddled it up some
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/053b-FuelTank-04-DSC_3575.jpg)

But it wasn’t bad, so I just straightened it out a bit before going on.

Of course, I couldn’t use the break to bend the sides, so I just found an appropriate piece of metal to bend against, and clamped it in the bench vise. Then I used a piece of wood and a mallet to bend the sheet metal over the metal edge.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/053b-FuelTank-05-DSC_3578.jpg)

Here I’m setup to bend another end:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/053b-FuelTank-06-DSC_3580.jpg)

Not sure making the tank all in one piece was as brilliant as I originally thought.  I couldn’t really bend it closed this way – I couldn’t get anything inside the tank to bend it around!  Anyway, in the end, I managed to get it fairly well bent to shape, but I couldn’t get the last bend to be a sharp 90 degrees – the top flapped open by about 1/4" or so.

So, I decided to put a couple of 2-56 screws in to hold it closed during soldering.  I clamped the box closed then drilled and tapped the holes.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/053b-FuelTank-07-DSC_3582.jpg)

Now the fun begins!  I cleaned it up, prepped it, got some flux and solder in place (this is soft solder now) and roasted the poor puppy. It took me two tries to get even this “good”.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/053b-FuelTank-08-DSC_3585.jpg)

The opposite side went much better:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/053b-FuelTank-09-DSC_3588.jpg)

However, when I did the 3rd side (the one with the screws) that went well, except the two sides I’d already soldered lost all their solder – I had big blobs of solder rolling down the sides of the tank :(

So I went back and re-soldered the other sides again – being MUCH more careful NOT to overheat everything.  It went better the 5 and 6th times.  But, of course, just as I was feeling good about getting the sides sealed, I realized that all four of the bottom corners leaked!

So back to the soldering station and a few more rounds of soldering to get the corners.  Now, I think it’s all water tight (or hopefully, alcohol tight :)). But what do I discover?  I drilled the filler hole and the vent hole wrong.  I flipped the size of the bits – I drilled the vent 3/16” when it should have been 1/8”, and the Filler hole 1/8” when it should have been 3/16”. And what’s worse, I drilled the Filler hole on the wrong side. I can’t turn the tank around, otherwise the fuel outlets will be on the wrong side. So I’m devising a cunning method to work around this conundrum.

But that will be for another day. For today, I leave you with two shots of the sort-of final fuel tank (with out Filler Tube, Vent Hole, or mounting brackets:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/053b-FuelTank-10-DSC_3590.jpg)

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/053b-FuelTank-11-DSC_3592.jpg)

I’ll clean up the unsightly solder blobs before I’m finished, but I’m going to wait till all the soldering is complete.

Thanks for taking a look at my very shallow learning curve.
Kim

Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: scc on October 29, 2017, 09:55:35 AM
I regularly have days like that............you will feel good after you have rescued it and all will be well :ThumbsUp: I do enjoy this build.
Thanks for sharing .           Best Wishes   Terry
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on October 29, 2017, 12:55:00 PM
I think it turned out well Kim. A little clean up and paint an it will look just right? All those joints in different planes are at best difficult!!

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on October 29, 2017, 03:11:04 PM
Thanks Terry and Bill!
I hope to have some more time to work with it this afternoon.
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on October 30, 2017, 01:14:17 AM
Continuing to continue on with the fuel tank:

To make up for past sins I must move one hole and shrink another.  So, here’s how I did it.

First, I drilled the hole in the right place.  This was easy.  Unfortunately, it didn’t close up the wrong hole :(
 (http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/053c-FuelTank-0-DSC_3595.JPG)

To close up the unwanted hole, I decided to solder a patch over it.

And to shrink the hole that was too big for the vent, I did a similar thing.  Except I used this opportunity to solve my other problem – how to keep the vent tube from falling all the way into the fuel tank!  (Yes, that happened once, and it took me 20 minutes to fish it out).

I cut a disk of sheet metal, drilled a 1/8” hole, and silver soldered the vent tube in it. This way, I could soft solder the sheet metal in place and the vent tube would be suspended at the correct height!  I felt pretty good about this solution!

So here are all the helpful little pieces I made to make this all happen. In the lower left is the patch for the hole in the wrong place. In the middle is the fill tube. And on the upper right,  the vent with its own sheet metal patch silver solder in place – like a flange or something.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/053c-FuelTank-1-DSC_3598.jpg)

I did the top side first. I need to plug the little hole and solder the fill tube in the big one.
 (http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/053c-FuelTank-2-DSC_3600.jpg)

Like so:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/053c-FuelTank-3-DSC_3604.jpg)

And on the underside, I need to solder in the vent, with its flange to fill the extra part of this over sized hole (and to keep it at the appropriate height from the other side of the tank.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/053c-FuelTank-4-DSC_3606.jpg)

Like so:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/053c-FuelTank-5-DSC_3608.jpg)

And after a little clean up, here’s what it looks like:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/053c-FuelTank-6-DSC_3611.jpg)

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/053c-FuelTank-7-DSC_3613.jpg)

The solder joint on the bottom side (vent hole) looks a little cold, so I may try reflowing that. But it doesn’t seem to leak, so I may just clean it up some and leave it as is.

I still have to solder on the mounting brackets, so the fuel tank isn’t done yet.  But its getting closer!

Thanks for stopping by!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: MJM460 on October 30, 2017, 07:57:22 AM
Hi Kim,

Thanks for taking us through the trials of making the tank.  I also find it difficult to get a tidy joint all around.  I have found silver soldering worked for me though, with no more trouble than you had with soft solder.

As an aside, did you feel the 3 in 1 overall useful, if only for other tasks?  I have looked at them often and wondered if they would be worthwhile.  I am thinking of sheet metal furnace boxes for around small boilers, but also for the little fuel tanks and other small boxes.

Thanks for a wonderful thread.  I am another regular reader.

MJM460
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on October 30, 2017, 06:14:37 PM
Thanks for the comment MJM,

As an aside, did you feel the 3 in 1 overall useful, if only for other tasks?  I have looked at them often and wondered if they would be worthwhile.  I am thinking of sheet metal furnace boxes for around small boilers, but also for the little fuel tanks and other small boxes.

I'm not certain where I stand on this yet.  I was actually pleased with the little shear - it seemed to cut this sheet metal quite well - though this is only 22 GA, and I think that may be near the limit of this little unit.  So, I do like the shear.

I haven't used the rollers yet, but they seem like they are no different from any other roller, so they ought to be just fine.

It's the brake that I'm finding a little off-putting.  The thing with this one is that I have trouble getting it setup so that the bend occurs in the desired spot.  With a standard brake I can line it up with the edge of the clamping part.  And while that's not always easy to do, at least I can see my line.  With these "V" shaped die method, I'm finding it harder to line up. And consequently, my bends don't always come out where I want them.  Maybe I'll find the technique and get better at it, but frankly, since I can't see the line under there, I don't exactly see how that will happen.

This one is only 8".  If I were to buy one myself, I think I'd go a little bigger. But I'm also considering getting a dedicated box brake instead.  That's the part I'd use most anyway.  A shear would be nice though!

I'd love to hear other peoples thoughts on these little units too.

Kim

<edit - to fix my misspelling of brake>
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Dave Otto on October 30, 2017, 07:27:07 PM
Hey Kim

I think to have any luck with placing the bends accurately and repeatably, you would need to fab up an adjustable back gage like on an industrial press brake; after all that is what the little guy emulates. Part of my day job involves running such a machine.
I looked at unit larger than the one you are using one time (probably a Horrible Freight Tool) and the punch and die were so awful I wondered to myself how anyone could ever make a decent bend on that thing. The nose radius on the punch was huge and the finish in the die looked like it had been chewed out with a hammer and chisel.

Good work on the tank, sheet metal can be a real challenge. Had you thought about folding it so the small tabs would be on the inside? I think that would have been my approach.

Thanks for posting your progress.
Dave
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on October 30, 2017, 11:26:45 PM
Thanks Dave,
I appreciate your input on the sheet metal machines.  Kinda matches my own.  Its possible that this one is higher quality than the HF (it's a  "Kaka" brand sheet metal machine), but even with higher quality, I don't see how to use the Die/Punch brake with any level of accuracy.  Maybe a back stop would help, but I don't think any of them have that.

Had you thought about folding it so the small tabs would be on the inside? I think that would have been my approach.
Interesting idea.  I was following Rudy's pictures is all.  Somehow it also felt like I had a better view of things to make sure the tabs were in good contact with the sides this way, but I'm not sure why I felt that way.

In the end, it doesn't really matter because its underneath the bottom of the cab and you won't be able to see it.  But its an interesting thought!

Thanks,
Kim

PS  I realized I spelled brake wrong in my previous post.  Fixed it now.  Sorry for my spelling faux pas, but I'm quite adept at them :)
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on October 30, 2017, 11:59:02 PM
I had almost asked about the brake/shear/ roller myself. Interesting to hear the opinions. I guess like a lot of things, the more versatile you try and make it, some of the capabilities get compromised.

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Dave Otto on October 31, 2017, 12:05:49 AM
They got it partiality right Bill, with the segmented punches, but as Kim found out you really need to have segmented dies too. I guess like a lot of the far east tools you could consider it a good starting point and build on it from there.

Dave
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on October 31, 2017, 01:04:02 AM
A segmented Die would be really nice, but even in a standard Pan Brake the bending apron is one solid piece.  Looking now I found ONE pan brake that had a segmented apron to match the bending fingers (and they want over $3K for it too! but it looks pretty cool :) http://www.trick-tools.com/Mittler-Bros-4-foot-Ultimate-Box-Pan-Brake-with-Radius-Fingers-16-gauge-2800-48-16-r-8951 (http://www.trick-tools.com/Mittler-Bros-4-foot-Ultimate-Box-Pan-Brake-with-Radius-Fingers-16-gauge-2800-48-16-r-8951)).  But most don't.  At least, I'd never seen one before.

So for me, its mostly the fact I can't seem to get the bend on my line.  I like being able to line it up on a normal brake before you clamp it down and bend it.

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on November 12, 2017, 12:33:02 AM
Continuing the continuation of continuing on with the fuel tank:

Next, I needed to add the mounting brackets.  The plans say you bend a bracket and soft solder it to the tank, then you soft solder a nut to the underside of the bracket so you can bolt it in place under the tractor.

While this sounds good, I was worried about getting the nut to align with the hole. When I solder things, they tend to slide around and end up in the general vicinity of where I wanted them, but not exactly.

So, I came up with this solution; solder a small piece of steel to the back side of the bracket, and then I can drill and tap it after I get things assembled.

And I decided to silver solder my nut replacements so I didn’t have to worry about them coming off while soldering the bracket into place.

Here I am, preparing for silver soldering the nut wanna-be in place:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/053d-FuelTank-01-DSC_3617.jpg)

Here are both pieces soldered.  This strip will be cut in half to make two brackets.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/053d-FuelTank-02-DSC_3619.jpg)

But before I cut it in half, I used the mill to square up the steel pieces so it looked better.  See?  They slid around on me just as I predicted.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/053d-FuelTank-03-DSC_3620.jpg)

Here’s it is after the milling:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/053d-FuelTank-04-DSC_3623.jpg)

And here are the brackets – cut in half and bent to shape.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/053d-FuelTank-05-DSC_3625.jpg)

Next, I soldered them into place (soft solder).
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/053d-FuelTank-06-DSC_3629.jpg)

And here’s the tank, with brackets.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/053d-FuelTank-07-DSC_3631.jpg)
I did a test fit of the tank, marked where the holes should be drilled and tapped and went to work.

I spotted and drilled the first hole, and tried to tap it.   But my tap would only go about 5-6 turns in before it got very hard to move.  I could feel it moving a bit, but I didn’t want to break it off.  I decided that 5-6 threads was plenty – as much as any nut would have, right?  So I drilled a clearance hole from the other side to meet the threads, so I wouldn’t have to thread the rest of the way through.

So I did this (sorry, no pics here, I was too focused and forgot). And then went to run the tap through.  5-6 turns and it stopped. I drilled a slightly larger clearance hole, thinking my holes might be misaligned.  Still it wouldn’t go. I was feeling like it was about to go through, when ... SNAP …
Oops… I snapped my #2-56 tap!  :facepalm:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/053d-FuelTank-08-DSC_3634.jpg)

This was my signal to take a break (no pun intended – I wasn’t feeling overly punny at the moment!  :Mad: ).
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on November 12, 2017, 12:40:44 AM
OK, after a little time to calm down, and a little positive self-talk, I decided to tackle it head on.

First, how’d that happen?  I figured I must have hardened the steel when soldering the brackets or something.  Why else would it have been so hard to tap?

So, how to repair the damage?  Of course, there wasn’t enough tap exposed to be able to twist it out.  So, I removed the chunk of steel with the tap in it, by attaching a pair of vice grips to the steel to act as a big weight, and heating the stupid thing up to release the silver solder.  Which worked quite well:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/053d-FuelTank-09-DSC_3635.jpg)

But, now, do I solder another chunk of steel there and go through that pain again?  I decided that since I had the hole marked in the right spot, I could just hold a nut in place with a short bolt and solder it down. Which is what I did.  And it worked fairly well:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/053d-FuelTank-10-DSC_3640.jpg)
Not the best soldering job, but it’s very firmly attached.

Now to do the other side.  I went to get a 2-56 cutting tap, since I’d broken my 2-56 roll tap.  But what do I find?  My 2-56 roll form tap!  Turns out, I’d been trying to use a 4-40 tap in a hole sized for a 2-56!  No wonder it got hard so fast!  And no wonder the 2-56 clearance hole didn’t help much!   I’m surprised I got 5 turns in with a 4-40!

The stupid things you do (well, at least I do!).

So, with the REAL 2-56 tap, the threading on the other side went quite smoothly. No difficulties at all!
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/053d-FuelTank-11-DSC_3642.jpg)
Amazing how it works when you use the correct tool!

And here’s a shot of the completed tank, with mounting brackets.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/053d-FuelTank-12-DSC_3644.jpg)

And here it is mounted under the cab.  You can see the copper fill-tube sticking up in the middle there, and the two hex head bolts holding the tank in place.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/053d-FuelTank-13-DSC_3645.jpg)

Finally, I soldered the burner cups into place:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/053d-FuelTank-14-DSC_3650.jpg)

Here’s the victory shot – the completed tank & burner assembly:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/053d-FuelTank-15-DSC_3653.jpg)

Now, mounted in place under the cab, taken from the under side:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/053d-FuelTank-16-DSC_3657.jpg)

And finally, to add the wick.  I had gotten this long role of 1” lamp wick.  I cut several 1 1/2" long sections, then rolled them together and placed them in the burner cup.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/053d-FuelTank-17-DSC_3660.jpg)

Wick now in both burner cups:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/053d-FuelTank-18-DSC_3662.jpg)

I still need to test my burners, but I think they look like they ought to work!

Thanks for following my trials and tribulations! 
Kim

Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on November 12, 2017, 12:59:41 AM
Great update and more nice progress Kim. Bummer about losing the 4-40 tap....I've done that or something similar. Humbling, but it happens. The tank turned out really well though.

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on November 12, 2017, 01:26:45 AM
Thanks Bill,
And what's even more embarrassing, is that in the picture with the broken tap (last picture in post #905), you can SEE where it says "4-40".  And I STILL Hadn't noticed it!  I was looking at it the whole time...    :insane:
And I believe I have learned this one before.  I think I'm going to have to keep my 4-40 tap farther away from my 2-56.  Somehow, I get the wrong one too easily!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: crueby on November 12, 2017, 01:34:15 AM
Been there, done that!   :wallbang:   :facepalm2:    :facepalm:
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Flyboy Jim on November 12, 2017, 03:12:51 AM
Thanks for the update Kim. This tank definitely qualifies as a "project within a project"! Well done!

Jim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on November 12, 2017, 05:14:45 AM
Thanks Jim!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: 90LX_Notch on November 12, 2017, 01:37:05 PM
Nice work on the tank Kim.  It is one of those parts the a lay person could never comprehend how much time and effort went into.

-Bob
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on November 12, 2017, 10:02:58 PM
Thanks Bob!
Yes, I'd never have guessed how much time would go into it either, till I made one.  Of course, when you do everything two or three times, it always takes longer  :embarassed:

But that's the process of learning. And despite how it may sound, I'm really enjoying it!  ;D

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on November 13, 2017, 01:04:20 AM
Today I tried out the burners.

I purchased a large plastic syringe (30ml) through Amazon, that had a 1.5” long needle.  I used this to fill the tank with ~90ml of denatured alcohol.  Turns out, 90ml was just a little much – I got just a smidge of overflow.  But it was pretty close!

I played with the wick a little to make sure it was wicking fuel up and then lit the burners.  It burned quite well!  As the wick stabilized, I got a good tall flame from it = maybe a little too tall. If I shorten the wick a little, I should bet a smaller flame, I think.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/053e-FuelTank-1-DSC_3669.jpg)

But I started noticing that the back burner’s flame was getting smaller, pretty fast.  It was burning very low – it didn’t seem to be getting as much alcohol as the front burner, which made no sense to me.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/053e-FuelTank-2-DSC_3674.jpg)

I blew out the flames and waited for things to cool. 

On investigation, the wick on the back burner was quite dry, which made me wondered if that rear fuel line was blocked somehow.  But after removing the wick, the burner cup immediately filled with fuel. So the line wasn’t blocked.

Then I started to wondering if I’d crammed the wick in there too tight – tight enough that it impeded the wicking action. So, I repacked the burner cups with one less piece of the 1” wide wick I used.

After replacing the wick, the top of the wick became wet with fuel very quickly, which I took to be a good sign.

This time, I got the same good flames, but they stayed more consistent over 5+ minutes,  not decreasing over time.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/053e-FuelTank-3-DSC_3686.jpg)

The back burner flame still seems to be a little shorter than the front one, but the wick had burned down more, so twas shorter.  I should probably trim the wicks more evenly when I do it again.

But it seems pretty clear that I can get a good flame from the burner!  Hopefully it will be hot enough to make some steam!

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on November 13, 2017, 01:11:52 AM
Looks like it should be plenty of heat Kim. As for being too much, guess you wont know will you try it out with the boiler. You can always shorten the wicks more as needed though...better too much than too little in this case.

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Dave Otto on November 13, 2017, 01:17:04 AM
Break out the hot dogs!

Kim I ran into this when I made my Poppin; the tube that I used was too small and and I had to cram the wick into it. When burning it would go for a while and then go out and smolder.
I rebuilt the burner using a larger tube and then it burned great.

Nice work on the burner BTW.
Dave
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on November 13, 2017, 01:25:47 AM
Thanks Bill and Dave,

Nice to know I'm not the only one who's run into these issues before. Makes me feel like less of a dunce I guess  :Jester:

I probably won't play with the burner anymore till I get the Boiler done.  I'm excited to start that, and a little scared!  Yet another new thing for me to tackle...  :D

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on November 13, 2017, 01:42:26 AM
Kim, my last screw up was on the cap for the Pearl feed pump. I needed to make the 1/2-20 threads a bit deeper, Picked up the tap checked that it was 1/2" but failed to notice that it was 13 tpi rather than 20. Non-recoverable...had to make a whole new cap. Hey maybe we need a dunce cap emoji  :lolb:

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on November 13, 2017, 05:21:57 AM
Hey maybe we need a dunce cap emoji  :lolb:

Yes, that would be one emoji I could certainly make use of!   :Lol:

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on November 13, 2017, 12:05:12 PM
You and me both Kim!!  :facepalm2:

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Don1966 on November 14, 2017, 09:26:25 PM
Looking great Kim inspite if the problems you encounter your making headway buddy.... :ThumbsUp:



 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on November 14, 2017, 09:34:17 PM
Thanks Don,
And I figure that the problems I run into indicate that I'm pushing myself to learn new things.  So, while frustrating from time to time, it is really a part of what makes this hobby all so interesting to me too!

At least, most of them... Picking the wrong tap out of the drawer?  Well, that probably calls for the Dunce Cap emoji! :)

Thanks for checking in!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: 10KPete on November 15, 2017, 01:13:15 AM
You're not alone there, Kim. I made some parts last year that were tapped 3/8-24, simple stuff. Picked a gun tap out of the drawer and for the life of me couldn't make it cut!! After a few minutes of  :censored: I looked at the tap. Really looked at it.

It was a LH thread 3/8-24.......  Hell, I didn't even know I had one!  It's now sitting in a place of honor waiting for a LH thread to be cut...

 :lolb: :lolb: :lolb:

Pete
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on November 15, 2017, 05:08:29 AM
Thanks for that Pete!
It shouldn't make me feel better to hear other people's difficulties, but you know, it does  :Lol:

Thanks to all for your commiseration,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Flyboy Jim on November 15, 2017, 05:12:57 AM
You're not alone there, Kim. I made some parts last year that were tapped 3/8-24, simple stuff. Picked a gun tap out of the drawer and for the life of me couldn't make it cut!! After a few minutes of  :censored: I looked at the tap. Really looked at it.

It was a LH thread 3/8-24.......  Hell, I didn't even know I had one!  It's now sitting in a place of honor waiting for a LH thread to be cut...

 :lolb: :lolb: :lolb:

Pete

Pete.............this sounds like a new version of the old problem of a "solution looking for a problem"!  :ROFL:

Jim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: 10KPete on November 15, 2017, 06:25:21 AM
Yes, Jim, I have a shop full of those!!

Pete
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on November 19, 2017, 06:04:22 AM
Today I started on my first boiler journey.  I’m excited about this – I’ve been looking forward to the boiler since I started working on this model.  The gears were pretty intimidating, but this seems a little more so.  But exciting never the less.

So, nothing to do for it but get started! :)  And I did this by cutting copper tube for the main part of the boiler.  The longer half that is still clamped in the saw is the piece we’ll be using for the boiler.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/054a-Boiler-01-DSC_3694.jpg)

On the lathe, I faced off both ends so they were nice and square, and got it to the 8” length.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/054a-Boiler-02-DSC_3701.jpg)

I blued up the outside of the tube, and used the paper trick to layout markings on the tube for the quadrants.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/054a-Boiler-03-DSC_3706.jpg)

Then marked the holes for the steam outlets and the boiler tubes.

For the steam outlet bushings, I drilled 3/8” holes.  I have not worked in copper much and have heard it can be very grabby.  So, I step drilled starting at 1/8” in 1/16” increments up to the final size.  That may have been over cautions, but it worked well and I never had any grabbing issues.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/054a-Boiler-04-DSC_3708.jpg)

For the boiler tubes, I drilled 3/16” holes at the end:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/054a-Boiler-05-DSC_3710.jpg)

And about 2/3 of the way up:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/054a-Boiler-06-DSC_3712.jpg)

All the holes are in the boiler tube now.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/054a-Boiler-07-DSC_3714.jpg)

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/054a-Boiler-08-DSC_3715.jpg)

With the holes in place, I then bent the holes for the forward boiler tubes back so that the tubes can come at the correct angle.  I did this by annealing the copper and using a piece of 3/16” steel rod to bend the boiler tube.  It took several rounds of annealing and bending to get the angle steep enough.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/054a-Boiler-09-DSC_3717.jpg)

Here’s a close up of the bent tube holes.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/054a-Boiler-10-DSC_3721.jpg)

And here I’m comparing it to the diagram – looks pretty good to me!
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/054a-Boiler-11-DSC_3731.jpg)

In the top picture here, you can see what I’m going for – the boiler tubes are external in this boiler, and add surface area close to the heat source.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/054a-Boiler-12-DSC_3732.jpg)

Next, I’ll work on the bushings and boiler tubes.
Thanks for checking in,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on November 19, 2017, 04:41:39 PM
SAFETY QUESTION:

Here's a question I need help with.

I've heard many people say not to do boiler tests with air, ONLY use water!  And I understand the reasoning is that a catastrophic failure with pressurized will be less dramatic than with Air.

However, in the instructions from Rudy on this boiler, he describes using air to test the boiler.  Granted, the initial test is only at 5 PSI, which might not be too bad - just looking for any obvious leaks. But the final test is at 60 PSI (this is a 30 PSI boiler, so 2x is 60).  His description is to use a bicycle pump and a "sniffler valve" (is this a check valve?) and pump the pressure up to 60 PSI.

Is that a reasonable thing to do? Or was this written before safety was invented and people didn't care as much if they lived or died when testing boilers?

It would be nice to just use a bicycle pump, because I have one of those.  I'd have to build a water pump, and that will take time and planning.  Clearly something that's worth while for safety's sake.  But I wanted to ask for advice here.  Would it be overly foolish to follow the book's description and use air for a 60 PSI boiler test?

Thanks,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: fumopuc on November 19, 2017, 05:13:15 PM
Hi Kim, If your final decission, after hearing all other opinions, will be the hydraulic way, this little pump is available in the US.
https://www.pmmodelengines.com/shop/steam/boiler-feed-pump/
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: AOG on November 19, 2017, 05:44:16 PM
Leaving aside the safety issues, I would still test water because it is easier to trace any pin holes you might find.

Tony
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: crueby on November 19, 2017, 06:12:42 PM
Definitely go with water - safer AND easier to see leaks, even minor seepages show up as single growing drops that would be hard to find with air. The little ram-type pumps fumopuc showed are available from a variety of sources, they work very well for testing as well as replenishing the water as you are running an engine. With the boiler full of water, along with the line from the pump, it only takes a few strokes to run up the pressure. I used that type to test up to 180psi on my boilers.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on November 19, 2017, 07:26:20 PM
Another vote for water Kim. Your start on the boiler looks wonderful!!!

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Don1966 on November 19, 2017, 07:52:24 PM
I vote for water also Kim. But I don’t see any danger of air as the amount of volume you have is very little so I din’t See it as any real danger. Water doesn’t give with pressure and when a leak occurred no pressure is released and is instantly gone, where as air can be compressed and releases pressure for a time so water is less dangerous. Looking good buddy.


 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on November 19, 2017, 10:39:57 PM
Thanks for the input Achim, Tony, Chris, Bill, and Don,

I do appreciate the input and advice.  Certainly, lots of support for the hydro testing.

As for 'seeing' the air leaks; this boiler is small enough that I believe the idea is to submerge it in a bucket of water and see if any bubbles come up.  That's how I always found small leaks in inner tubes when I was a kid.  Seems like it could work here fairly well.  Assuming that 60lbs isn't overly dangerous for this method.

Any support at all for the 'under water air testing?'

KIm
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: MJM460 on November 20, 2017, 01:53:14 AM
Hi Kim,  certainly the full size practice is at least in part due to the possibility of brittle fracture in steels, it is certainly to do with crack propagation which on a large vessel is really catastrophic, though not really applicable to copper.  A proper hydro test in steel actually "bluntens" a crack, if it does not fail, and actually makes propagation less likely for future pressure cycles. 

On your copper boiler, I think the danger is more likely to be due to a soldered in bush with poor penetration that fails the on the test.  It raises the picture of a bush flying around like a bullet with all the energy you've stored in the air by using that pump behind it.  With water, the compressibility is minimal, so the stored energy is low, which you know by how few strokes of the tiny feed pump it takes to get the pressure.  And you can be sure that most of those few strokes are necessary due to a small bubble of air you were unable to displace with the water.  More than about 1 stroke is a definitive indication of either air, or a leaky pump valve.  You can easily work out the volume change of the water using the liquid specific volume column of the steam tables, there is no mystery to it.

So, while we are on full size practice, the usual recommendation for that preliminary leak test, a good idea on a very large steel system, is a very low pressure air test, with either soap bubble mix for a large system, or submerging in water where ever practical.  Even my multi million dollar compressor casings are submerged for this test, it always pains me to see it as the water in an unpainted steel tank never looks clean even, and they go as far as to use helium instead of air.  The molecules are smaller, so it is a very much more sensitive test.  Perhaps we have a use for those helium filled party balloons after all.  And the pressure used is very low, 5 to 15 psig, preferably a time at each of several different pressures over the range.  It has been found that higher pressures can temporarily close a leak so it is not detected, but still shows up later.

There are circumstances where it is necessary to use a pneumatic test for full size vessels, it is approached with great care and is never as high as a hydro test which in full size is normally only 1.5 times, I think from memory, 1.25 times for pneumatic tests.  The hydro test pressure is increased to compensate for the difference in material strength for high temperature vessels to 1.5 times the allowable pressure for a new and cold vessel.  That is where the two times design pressure for our model tests come from.  But the circumstances for a pneumatic test do not arise in model scale, so you would not get approval from the authorities for a pneumatic test in that size vessel in industry.

So you might gather that I am another vote for a hydro test, not air.  You will eventually want a pump anyway, so make one with a manual handle that could be converted to axle driven, or gear driven for your tractor.

A great build, beautifully documented by the way, another of my "must reads" at every update.

MJM460
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on November 20, 2017, 02:19:24 AM
Thanks for the detailed info on full-sized testing, MJM.  Very interesting.

Sounds like the wisdom of the group is pretty unanimous, so I'll be figuring a way to do a hydro test.

And it all does make sense!  I just worry about what I'd have done if I was just following along with the instructions in Rudy's book without the benefit of the wisdom of this forum.

Again, thank you to each of you for sharing your wisdom and experience with me, yet again, to help keep me safe and having fun with this hobby!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on November 20, 2017, 02:49:35 AM
Today, I made the Longitudinal Stay, and started the end caps.

The stay is quite simple; a piece of 1/8” copper rod, threaded at both ends.

After cutting, I faced off the end:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/054b-Boiler-1-DSC_3739.jpg)

And threaded it 5-40.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/054b-Boiler-2-DSC_3741.jpg)

Here it is. Not very hard :)
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/054b-Boiler-3-DSC_3764.jpg)

Next I started on the end caps. First I laid them out on the copper, trying to waste as little of this expensive sheet as possible!
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/054b-Boiler-4-DSC_3746.jpg)

I drilled the 1/8” center hole on the mill.  This will be for the longitudinal stay,
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/054b-Boiler-5-DSC_3750.jpg)

Then I went to cut them out on the scroll saw.  Cutting the 1/8” copper sheet took a long time. It’s just slow going. The metal blades are very thin, and if you try to push a faster cut, the blade will break.  I broke one blade after 1/4", the next blade I made 2.5” and the final one, I completed all the rest of the cuts.  So I can learn!  These are good Vallorbe blades, so they seem to be up to the task, as long as I treat them well!
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/054b-Boiler-6-DSC_3755.jpg)

And here’s the end caps freed from the parent stock.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/054b-Boiler-7-DSC_3763.jpg)

And it was time to come in for the evening.  Not a lot accomplished, but I’m taking a few days off this week before Thanksgiving, so hopefully, I’ll get a little bonus shop time this week!  Pretty excited about that!

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on November 21, 2017, 01:18:20 AM
Yes! I got some bonus shop time today!  So, I continued on with the boiler.

Yesterday, I’d left off having just cut the end caps.  Now I needed to make them round.

I went with the LocTite mounting using a piece of 1” steel rod.  I used the center through the 1/8” holes to help center up the coper blank, then used it to hold some pressure on the assembly while the LocTite was setting.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/054c-Boiler-01-DSC_3769.jpg)

Here’s the other side:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/054c-Boiler-02-DSC_3771.jpg)

After the LocTite set, I placed a piece of 1” rod between the live center and the copper to help distribute the pressure.  Don’t know if this was needed, but it felt like a good idea.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/054c-Boiler-03-DSC_3773.jpg)

Then I cut the disk down to the appropriate size to just fit in the end of the boiler tube.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/054c-Boiler-04-DSC_3774.jpg)

After turning down both end caps, I took one of them to the mill to drill the holes for the end bushings.  I’m using a 60 center to align to the center of the copper plate to set the DROs.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/054c-Boiler-05-DSC_3776.jpg)

After dialing up the right spot for the first hole, I used my favorite center to start it.  Then I hear a ‘SNAP’.  The tip of the center snapped right off in the copper!  Guess that stuff IS grabby!  I hadn’t had any problem up till now :(
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/054c-Boiler-06-DSC_3778.jpg)

So I sat back for a few minutes to think about what to do, and came up with this – I’d try using a little ‘donut cutter’ like I’d done to take a broken drill bit tip out of the outer boiler casing (if you recall when I was having all THAT drama a year or two back).  Turns out, I didn’t even need to make a new one. The one I already had was just the right size!  How lucky was that?
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/054c-Boiler-07-DSC_3781.jpg)

And it worked like a charm.  I was really careful, went slow and used some cutting oil. It seemed to go fine. Only problem now is that I can’t get the copper plug out of the plug cutter. But I decided to deal with that later.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/054c-Boiler-08-DSC_3783.jpg)

After that mishap, I went about drilling the two 1/2" holes in the end cap.  Again, I stepped up from 1/8” to 1/2" (by 1/16ths).
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/054c-Boiler-09-DSC_3786.jpg)

After that, I worked on getting the copper plug out of the plug cutter.  I was able to do it using a tiny drill bit (#55) and made a very short hole in the copper,  Then I took a #54 bit (just a wee bit bigger) and twisted that, by hand, into the #55 hole in the soft copper just a smidge, and used the #54 drill bit to pull out the plug.  It worked surprisingly well!

And here’s the fruits of my labor today, including the plug cutter, showing the copper plug after it was mostly pulled out.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/054c-Boiler-10-DSC_3791.jpg)

I’m a few steps closer to a boiler!
Next up is the bushes and the boiler tubes.  Then I can start silver soldering it all together!

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: 10KPete on November 21, 2017, 01:28:19 AM
See, I told you that tool should be carefully put away for future events!!!   :old:

I don't see any signs of lube in those pics. You are using some, aren't you? I've used butter with excellent results. It only takes a trace to make the difference.

Pete
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on November 21, 2017, 02:32:42 AM
Yes Pete!  And you were so right!

Yes, I'm using some of my standard stuff, I think its Magic Tap (general purpose cutting oil).  That's what I use unless I've got something more specific (Viper for single point threading steel, A-9 or WD-40 for Aluminum).

I blew away the chips before the I took pictures, which dispersed any cutting oil.  But I brushed some on for every cutting operation.  Including the scroll saw that I did yesterday.  It seemed to help significantly.  Still had to clear chips a lot -that copper is really sticky!

Now, do you use real, full fat butter?  Or margarine? I'm pretty sure the only thing we'd have in the house is some kind of heart healthy omega-3 infused margarine!  Wouldn't want to clog the arteries on the mill!   :Lol:

Kim

Thanks Pete!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: crueby on November 21, 2017, 03:10:21 AM
Yeah, copper is funky stuff, light cuts, oil, and it still seems to grab chips and tries to weld it back in behind the cutter.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: 10KPete on November 21, 2017, 04:03:26 AM
Well now, that's a good question, Kim. I don't think I've ever had anything other than butter around here. So good old salted premium full on butter.

Pete
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Steamer5 on November 21, 2017, 08:25:18 AM
Pete,
 Plus 1 for real butter!

Kim,
 Looking good! Just catching up, good choice on the hydraulic test.

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Stuart on November 21, 2017, 10:34:28 AM
Full fat cows milk is the best for copper
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: crueby on November 21, 2017, 01:04:59 PM
Full fat cows milk is the best for copper
Where did you find safety glasses to fit the cow you keep in the shop?   :ROFL:
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on November 21, 2017, 05:26:25 PM
Yes, safety first!
(http://lister-engine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/normal_054c-Boiler-CowGoggles.jpg)

I was just wondering about the smell of the rotting milk in the shop.  I don't mind the smell of oil & grease.  But rotting milk mixed around with the swarf - that seems a little much for me!  :lolb:

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Dave Otto on November 21, 2017, 07:59:18 PM
I have machined quite a bit of copper at work, milling, drilling, and tapping. The soluble oil in my VMC seems to work just fine.
I do also run small copper job at home, the Micro-Drop mister using their synthetic lube also works great. I think modern cutting oils have come a long way since the days of using whole milk to machine copper.

Dave
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: scc on November 21, 2017, 09:36:10 PM
Looking good Kim,    I've never had to machine copper so I'm watching and learning....................Terry
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on November 21, 2017, 10:40:51 PM
Thanks Dave and Terry,
Yeah, the cutting oil I'm using seems to be doing fine. I'm sure there could be something better, but this hasn't caused me any problem.  Oh - yeah... except for my broken center.  But I'm not sure I can blame that on the cutting oil.  I think I was just getting too careless.  Everything was just swimming along so nice, I forgot to be cautious and was pushing things a little hard and fast.  Live and learn...

Thanks!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on November 21, 2017, 10:43:47 PM
Day four of my boiler odyssey:

Today I made all the bushings.

I started with a 5/8” round copper rod.  Turned it down to 9/16”, then put a 1/2" step in it to fit in the End Cap holes I made yesterday.  After a nice trial fit, the part was cut off:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/054d-Boiler-1-DSC_3792.jpg)

After cutting two 1/2" bushings, and two 3/8” bushings (for the top of the boiler) I moved to tapping them.

I flipped them around in a 1/2" collet, faced off the flange to the correct width (1/16”) then drilled and tapped.  The first two (the 1/2" ones) were both supposed to be 1/8”-27 NTP.  Having never done a tapered thread before, this was a new experience for me.  According to the table I looked up, if you don’t have a Pipe Taper Reamer (which I didn’t) you should use a “Q” bit for a 1/8”-27 threaded hole.  This was ‘just’ big enough to start the taper tap.  Taping the copper was hard going – Not sure how much of the challenge was the copper ,or how much of it was the taper – the further you go in, the more threads you were cutting at once.  But taking it slow, using lube and backing out a lot to clear chips, I made it just fine.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/054d-Boiler-2-DSC_3795.jpg)

I tried one of the fittings in there and realized I needed to make the taper go much deeper.  So, I kept going till the fitting went about half way in, which seemed reasonable.
 (http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/054d-Boiler-3-DSC_3799.jpg)

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/054d-Boiler-4-DSC_3803.jpg)

One of the 3/8” bushings was to be 5/16”-27 MTP.  With research, I’d learned that MTP stands for “Model Pipe Thread”, and that 5/16”-27 MTP is the same thing as 1/16" NTP (National Pipe Thread).  So, I did the same maneuver with this one, using a 1/16"-27 NTP tap.

The final bushing was just a simple 10-32 straight thread.  Got that one done in a jiffy!

And here is my family of bushings:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/054d-Boiler-5-DSC_3805.jpg)

Now I’m down to the boiler tubes left to make before I start soldering!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on November 22, 2017, 12:37:37 AM
Tapered threads can be a challenge in even brass or aluminum. I can imagine the "grabby" copper was even worse. Nice work getting those done Kim .

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: 10KPete on November 22, 2017, 12:42:32 AM
From the quality of the finish it looks like you're doing just fine with copper. Super sharp tools, easy cuts with thin chips...

Beautiful!

Pete
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on November 22, 2017, 01:26:57 AM
Thanks Bill and Pete!

I'll be glad to be done with the copper and back to more standard materials soon!

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Flyboy Jim on November 22, 2017, 02:45:50 AM
Great work Kim.  :ThumbsUp:

One of the many things I've learned from your thread is that, if I ever go to a bigger lathe, it will have to have the capability to have a 5C collet chuck! That looks so nice to work with.

Jim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: 10KPete on November 22, 2017, 02:52:37 AM
The good ol' collets made like that 5C will hold right on a small step like a bulldog! That's something the ER collets won't do. But they were designed as tool holders...

Love those collets!

Pete
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Flyboy Jim on November 22, 2017, 02:57:56 AM
The good ol' collets made like that 5C will hold right on a small step like a bulldog! That's something the ER collets won't do. But they were designed as tool holders...

Love those collets!

Pete

I've got a set of 5C collets and collet blocks, so have already bonded with them.  :Love:  I just haven't found a 5C collet chuck for my Sherline lathe yet!  :lolb:

Jim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: 10KPete on November 22, 2017, 03:51:23 AM
And what's stopping you from making one? I dunno, it might be possible.....

Pete
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4&quot; (Rudy K)
Post by: rklopp on November 22, 2017, 03:54:05 AM
The rule of thumb for how deep to tap taper pipe NPT threads is to go until 6 thread of the tap are still sticking above the surface.

As for boiler bushings, phosphor bronze is good and machines much more easily than Cu.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on November 22, 2017, 05:21:02 AM
...if I ever go to a bigger lathe, it will have to have the capability to have a 5C collet chuck! That looks so nice to work with.

Yes!  I love that collet chuck.  It was on the spendy side, but I purchased the Bison chuck from Grizzly when I got my lathe.  And boy, was it ever a good move!  I use that chuck 90% of the time probably.  Over the last several years I've picked up a square and hex collets which makes it even more versatile.  I would highly recommend it a 5C collet!

However, I agree, it might be a bit tough on the Sherline.  The collet chuck would probably take over half the length of the lathe! :)

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4&quot; (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on November 22, 2017, 05:27:52 AM
The rule of thumb for how deep to tap taper pipe NPT threads is to go until 6 thread of the tap are still sticking above the surface.
That's a good rule of thumb to keep in mind!  I've not heard that before (not surprising, since I have no experience with NTP threads  :embarassed: ).

As for boiler bushings, phosphor bronze is good and machines much more easily than Cu.
That could have been a good idea too.  In this case, Rudy specifies copper, for everything on the boiler, and since its my first experience here, I'm trying to follow his lead quite closely.  But it will be good to know for next time.  I think Kozo uses bronze for most of the bushings on the boiler for the A3 Switcher, so that fits exactly with what you're saying.

Thanks Rklopp,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on November 23, 2017, 05:11:43 AM
I didn’t have a lot of shop time today, with family obligations and all, but I did make a little progress.  I made the boiler tubes.

These were 6” lengths of 3/16” copper tube. I annealed one end and bent them as shown in the drawing.  I made a little bending mandrel  out of a scrap piece of brass, and clamped it in my bench vice:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/054e-Boiler-1-DSC_3806.jpg)

And bent the tube at a slightly more than 90 degree angle, like so:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/054e-Boiler-2-DSC_3809.jpg)

Then I cut the back end of the tube at an angle (probably not required, but it seemed right).  Here are all three tubes ready to go.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/054e-Boiler-3-DSC_3811.jpg)

And what they look like fitted into the boiler:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/054e-Boiler-4-DSC_3813.jpg)

Not sure when I’ll get out to the shop next, but when I do, it will be silver solder time!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: 10KPete on November 23, 2017, 05:58:37 AM
That is one cool way to put in simple water tubes. I may try that on a little boiler I have in mind... :thinking:

Pete
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on November 23, 2017, 02:24:44 PM
Nice going on those Kim. On the angled ends of the tubes, how much gap is there to solder. I suspect the fit is closer than the picture makes it look?  And what's up with the popsicle sticks ?  ;D

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on November 23, 2017, 05:01:03 PM
Thanks Pete and Bill!

On the angled ends of the tubes, how much gap is there to solder. I suspect the fit is closer than the picture makes it look?
Yes, I think they are pretty close. I was looking at that too, and my current plan is to check on that gap before soldering and, if needed, bend the boiler in a little to close the gap.  I've also thought about adding a little 'copper swarf' as filler if needed, though I'm not sure how well that would work, its something I might try.  Because I clearly need those to be nice and close fitting before soldering!

And what's up with the popsicle sticks ?  ;D
I had to go back through the pictures to see what you were referring to there, Bill!  That is a little popsicle stick box that one of my kids made for me when they were younger.  A very thoughtful and sweet gift :)  I have had it out in my shop for many years and keep random drill bits and things in it.  Guess it was just in the way when I took those pics!

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on November 23, 2017, 06:49:49 PM
Those are the best tools of all Kim!!  It looked like it was supporting the end of that board along with that plastic container. Thought maybe you had a newfangled machinist's Jack or something  :) Happy Thanksgiving.

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on November 25, 2017, 03:52:15 AM
Hope you all had as wonderful a Thanksgiving as I did. I just sat around all day eating and chatting with family and friends.  It was very enjoyable.

Today however, I got to have some significant shop time.  Today was Soldering the Boiler day.  This has been concern of mine since I started this project.  I keep telling myself – other people do it, they can make it work, so you can figure it out too.  But it has still been looming as one of the most exciting/scary parts of this project.

Today, I could put it off no longer.  It was time to do the deed.

So, armed with all parts made and fitted, and with all the confidence I could muster, I fluxed up the first bushing to go for it.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/054f-Boiler-01-DSC_3818.jpg)

First difference – Copper seems to suck heat away much faster than brass!  It was hard to get that big piece of copper hot enough to melt the silver solder.  I was using a little 000 tip that I use for most of the soldering I do – it makes a small (super hot) flame that is mostly controllable.  That has worked for pretty much everything I’ve done so far.  But with this, I just couldn’t get it hot enough.

Then remembered that I had purchased a rosebud tip for my torch, just in case I needed more heat.  The smallest rosebud I could find was a #4, so that’s what I got. Now THAT made enough heat!  But it was a bit like holding the back end of a Saturn V rocket or something. It was QUITE the Flame!  (at least compared to what I’ve been using).

Anyway, using the #4 rosebud tip on the inside of the tube, did the job in short order.  Turned everything black, but it sure worked!
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/054f-Boiler-02-DSC_3820.jpg)

A pickle & a wash, then setup the next bushing:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/054f-Boiler-03-DSC_3822.jpg)

Again with the rosebud.  Seemed to work quite well.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/054f-Boiler-04-DSC_3824.jpg)

OK, maybe I was a little quick with that.  After a pickle & a cleaning, it looked to me like one side of each of the bushings just didn’t get any solder.  So I fluxed them up again, and put some solder there to see if I could improve those joints.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/054f-Boiler-05-DSC_3827.jpg)

One more trip with the torch and it seems to have finished those up nicely.   But now I’m starting to worry that I’m getting the copper too hot.  You can see the deep heat patters around the bushings there.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/054f-Boiler-06-DSC_3829.jpg)

After a pickle and a bath and it looked pretty good.

Next, I setup the boiler tubes.  As Bill mentioned, there are some potentially big gaps where the straight piece of tube goes into the boiler.   I played around with that, trying to minimize any opening (though I’m not sure I really changed anything significantly).  Then I fluxed things up put on some solder.

But this time, I decided to try a cutting tip – I’ve got some smaller cutting torch tips and those are essentially a little rosebud, as long as you don’t trigger the extra oxygen.  So, I tried a #0 cutting torch tip (being careful to leave the cutting oxygen valve closed completely). This seemed to work really well – distributed heat well and evenly, and was a much smaller, more controlled fame (still quite big mind you, maybe a small ICBM rather than the Saturn V).

I apparently didn’t get a before shot, but here’s the after shot.  I was getting a little more aggressive and did all three tubes at once.  It seemed to work quite well.  I did the front end first, then turned it around (very carefully!) and did the cab end.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/054f-Boiler-07-DSC_3833.jpg)

After cleanup, I took this picture down the front end of the boiler.   I think the joints look pretty good.  I tried back lighting them and couldn’t see any light coming through.  I know that isn’t definitive, but its at least a first step!
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/054f-Boiler-08-DSC_3835.jpg)

And here’s the cab end of the tubes.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/054f-Boiler-09-DSC_3838.jpg)

And an overall outside shot.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/054f-Boiler-10-DSC_3839.jpg)

Now, my original plan had been to solder each of the end bushings on, one at a time, then to solder the end cap in place.  But with the amount of heat I was getting out of my torch, I decided I’d go for the whole kit-and-caboodle at once.   It took a while to get all the parts placed appropriately, with the end cap in place, AND the stay in place, but eventually, I got it, with lots of flux & solder.  Oh, and as an added bonus, I also remembered to orient the end cap bushings in the correct locations!  (That could have been a disaster waiting to happen! - where's my dunce cap emoji?  :Jester:)
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/054f-Boiler-11-DSC_3842.jpg)

Here we are after soldering.  Not too shabby.  Maybe a little crispy, but it seemed to come out OK.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/054f-Boiler-12-DSC_3845.jpg)

And the front end.  Too much flux here – I’d put some on at the same time I did the cab end.  When I went to put the solder on this end, after I’d roasted the other side, the flux was all dry and crusty.  So I put some more on.  While it seemed to work – the additional flux probably wasn’t necessary.  I had a whole flux lake here!
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/054f-Boiler-13-DSC_3847.jpg)

After the ceremonial pickling and washing – and some filing way of some over zealous solder, it actually looks quite respectable.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/054f-Boiler-14-DSC_3848.jpg)

The end was hard to clean with all the ledges and crevasses.  But way better than it started.  I may do a bit more work on this end, though, it may not matter too much since it’ll be behind the firebox  backsheet pretty soon.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/054f-Boiler-15-DSC_3853.jpg)

The front end:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/054f-Boiler-16-DSC_3854.jpg)

And an overall beauty shot for good measure.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/054f-Boiler-17-DSC_3856.jpg)

All in all, I’m feeling quite good about it.

Clearly, I’m not done yet.  I have to make some plugs and then rig up a pump to do the hydrostatic testing.  Though on the plus side, I didn't notice any gusher leaks when I was washing it up!

However, that may be a few weeks out now.  But for a good reason.  I’ve gotten clearance to do my next garage overhaul.  I’m working on a cunning plan (as they say) to expand my shop.  I’m currently crammed into just over 1 bay of a 3 car garage.   My master plan is to clean out the other sided of the garage (the non-shop side), get rid of half of the stuff, clean up the rest and compress it into less space so that I get another half bay to play in :)

This is good for me because I’ll end up with more shop space.  And good for my wife because she’s interested in having the garage organized.  It’s a clear win-win!

So, while I plan out my pump, I’ll be overhauling the garage to make it less storage and more shop!

And that’s the news from Lake Wobegon,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Flyboy Jim on November 25, 2017, 04:03:18 AM
Looks like a good step ahead Kim. I'm paying close attention since I have yet to solder up my fuel/coolant tank for my P & W build. Mine won't be silver solder, so should be much simpler.

Your workspace expansion will be fun to watch. Be sure and take some before and after pictures to post.

Jim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Steamer5 on November 25, 2017, 08:42:40 AM
Hi Kim,
 The boiler is looking good! Well done!

Congratulations on the shop extension! Hope it all goes well, of course you will be suppling photos of the progress.....?

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on November 25, 2017, 03:55:24 PM
Thanks Jim and Kerrin!

Sure, I'll be posting pictures of the shop re-work :)
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Dave Otto on November 25, 2017, 05:10:50 PM
Your boiler is coming along nicely Kim.


Dave
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on November 25, 2017, 05:55:46 PM
It looks phenomenal to me Kim. Cleaned up really well too. Nicely done  :ThumbsUp:

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: mal webber on November 25, 2017, 06:24:29 PM
Nice work there Kim the boiler looks great
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on November 25, 2017, 08:16:51 PM
Hi Dave, Bill, and Mal,
Thanks for stopping by and taking a look at my boiler.  Appreciate the kind comments!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Roger B on December 05, 2017, 11:35:04 AM
Excellent work on the boiler  :praise2:  :praise2:
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on December 06, 2017, 12:02:25 AM
Thanks Roger! :)

Kim

P.S. My tractor build is on a bit of a hiatus right now, sitting in the back, waiting till my shop re-model is complete.  But I'll get on it pretty soon...
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Don1966 on December 06, 2017, 12:54:14 AM
All I can say is wow! For an amateur your solding is coming along great. Nice work all around Kim. Best part is knowing when you needed more heat and went for it. Keep up the excellent work buddy!


 :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on December 06, 2017, 05:26:45 AM
Thanks Don!
I appreciate the kind comments!  You're one of the people who have really helped me get to this point. Thanks to you, and the many other patient people who give me helpful and instructive comments!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on April 21, 2018, 11:34:28 PM
I can’t believe its been FIVE months since I had any updates to my steam tractor!  The forum gave me an "Old Thread" warning when I posted this!  I had no idea it was going to be SOO long!

While I haven’t had a ton of shop time, what little I had has been spent making the new mill feel at home, re-organizing my shop, and just generally improving things in my little hide-away.

But, today, FIVE months later (less 3 days) I’m making another progress post to my main project. :)

In my last post (way back in November), I had just completed the copper boiler.  And now, I need to figure out a way to hydro test it.  And to do that, I need a pump.

Dave Otto, hearing of my need for a pump, very kindly sent me this beautiful little pump casting.  He was on the ball and sent it to me four and a half months ago.  NOW, I’m finally getting around to doing something with it.  Thank you, Dave!
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055a-WaterPump-2-DSC_4276.jpg)


The casting will lend itself very well to building the tender water pump found in Kozo’s A3-Pennsy Switcher book.  I have to make a few changes to things, but I’m using Kozo’s plans with only slight changes. Here’s a drawing I made of how I’m going to make it all fit with Dave’s casting.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055a-WaterPump-1-DSC_4271.jpg)

First, as with all castings, you have to figure out how to hold the thing.  As it turns out, I was able to just clamp it vertically in my vise.  I used a square to make sure it was perpendicular to the spindle.  I was a little worried about it, but it seemed quite secure like this.  Here I’ve just spotted the center of the plunger hole.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055a-WaterPump-3-DSC_4281.jpg)

Next, I drilled it to 3/8”, 2” deep.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055a-WaterPump-4-DSC_4283.jpg)

Dave, I assume this is a bronze casting?  It machines like butter!  I love it!  It makes beautiful copper/bronze colored chips and machines like a dream! Thanks again for the casting!

The 3/8" hole is the long horizontal hole you can see in the drawing.  However, you can also see that I need a short 5/32” hole way at the bottom of that hole. The problem is that I don’t have a long enough drill bit to reach all the way down there past the base of the pump cating.  Even a jobber length bit isn’t long enough.  I considered ordering an extended length bit, but instead, I just made an extension for the drill I do have (seen in the bottom part of the picture).
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055a-WaterPump-5-DSC_4288.jpg)

And here I’ve just completed doing a 1/2” deep, 5/32” hole at the bottom of the 3/8” pump ram.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055a-WaterPump-6-DSC_4289.jpg)

Finally, before undoing this setup, I needed to bore a 1/2" lip to hold an O-ring for the plunger.  This is the first time I’ve gotten to use my R-8 boring head.  Works pretty slick! :)
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055a-WaterPump-7-DSC_4293.jpg)

And here’s the completed O-ring hole.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055a-WaterPump-8-DSC_4294.jpg)

That’s it for today.  Next, I need to start on the water inlet & outlet ports at the other end of the pump casting.  Oh, yeah, and I need to add a tab to the casting for attaching the pump handle.

Thanks for looking in at my long-ignored build thread!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: 10KPete on April 21, 2018, 11:57:34 PM
Dude! You're on it! Good to see this moving again. That is a beautiful casting and it would appear that you are doing it justice...

Adding shanks to make drills longer is an old thing and I'm glad you've found the way!!

Your sketches look like my drawings.. :thinking:

Pete
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Dave Otto on April 22, 2018, 12:00:05 AM
Hi Kim

Good to see you back working on the steam tractor! I'm pretty sure that the water pump casting is bronze, I had it kicking around for so many years I can't remember where I got it from. Maybe someone will recognize the part number? It may have come form Tiny Power or D&M model engineering both long gone.

Nice to see someone putting it to use.

Dave
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: zeeprogrammer on April 22, 2018, 12:14:07 AM
I can’t believe its been FIVE months since I had any updates to my steam tractor!  The forum gave me an "Old Thread" warning when I posted this!  I had no idea it was going to be SOO long!

While I haven’t had a ton of shop time, what little I had has been spent making the new mill feel at home, re-organizing my shop, and just generally improving things in my little hide-away.

Excuses excuses.  ;D
Good excuses!
But excuses.  ;D

P.S. I'm not one to talk.

Glad you're back to this.  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on April 22, 2018, 05:25:11 AM
Thanks Pete!
Adding shanks to make drills longer is an old thing and I'm glad you've found the way!!
Yeah, not original.  I've seen it many times from others.  But its surprising how long it took me to remember that little trick. And it worked quite well!

Your sketches look like my drawings.. :thinking:
Hmm... Maybe those are ones Chris's elves stole from you and moved to my shop when you weren't looking?  :Lol:
Those little guys sure get around!  And I don't even have any cookies!

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on April 22, 2018, 05:26:17 AM
Good to see you back working on the steam tractor! I'm pretty sure that the water pump casting is bronze, I had it kicking around for so many years I can't remember where I got it from. Maybe someone will recognize the part number? It may have come form Tiny Power or D&M model engineering both long gone.

Nice to see someone putting it to use.

Dave
Thanks again, Dave,
Hope I'm doing it justice.  We'll see how it turns out.  But it's quite a nice little casting for sure!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on April 22, 2018, 05:27:20 AM
Excuses excuses.  ;D
Yeah, well, that's all I've got... Excuses.

At least I had photographic evidence of progress today!  :embarassed:

Thanks Zee :)
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on April 22, 2018, 12:10:10 PM
Good to see you back on this project Kim. Reminds me I need to get it in gear and get back to the little pearl too. Life has just gotten in the way lately.  Very nice start on the pump though!

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on April 22, 2018, 03:02:03 PM
Thanks Bill!
Looking forward to seeing you continue on with the Little Pearl.  But soon you'll have a lot more time available!  Then, no excuses! :)
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: 90LX_Notch on April 22, 2018, 04:19:56 PM
Good to see you back at it Kim.

-Bob
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on April 22, 2018, 04:22:45 PM
Thanks Bob, its exciting to get back to it :)
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Dave Otto on April 22, 2018, 04:48:08 PM
Hi Kim

It seems that you could add the handle pivot to that flat boss at the rear of the casting similar to the picture here, and not have to silver solder the one on top as shown in your sketch?  Maybe a machined part that screws on from underneath, just thinking out loud here . If you have a plan I don't want to mess it up. :Lol:

Dave
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on April 22, 2018, 05:44:32 PM
Good point, Dave!  I was thinking there should be some way to take advantage of that flat spot, but was so focused on the drawings I had that I couldn't visualize it.  But that would be a great simplification.  Thanks for pointing that out!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on April 29, 2018, 03:22:03 AM
Now to drill the vertical holes for the water intake and output.  The vertical hole is pretty intricate with varying sizes of holes and threads from each end.  Kozo shows 1/4"–32 threads, but I’m using 1/4”–28, because I have a tap for that.  :embarassed:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055b-WaterPump-1-DSC_4299.jpg)

I drilled the 1/8” hole all the way through, drilled the 7/32” in the top part way down, and then drilled and tapped 1/4"–28.  Opps, I forgot to take pictures. But I really did it, as can be seen from this pic of the completed top end (the top side will be the pressurized output).
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055b-WaterPump-2-DSC_4298.jpg)

Flipping the casting over, I picked up the center of the 1/8” hole.   Looks like the drill wandered a bit on its way through, but this hole lines up with the ram hole that I drilled last week, so it’s plenty good enough.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055b-WaterPump-3-DSC_4301.jpg)

Then I drilled it to 7/32” part way through (shown in the picture).  Then drilled and tapped (not shown).
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055b-WaterPump-4-DSC_4302.jpg)

Before the main housing is complete, I need to make a connection for the water output.  That will be a 5/16” brass spigot, that will be silver soldered onto the upper end of the vertical hole.  You can see that in the first picture in this post.

Here’s the brass spigot after I threaded it, 1/4"–28.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055b-WaterPump-5-DSC_4304.jpg)

Then I drilled an 1/8” hole so the water can get through.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055b-WaterPump-6-DSC_4305.jpg)

Here are the two pieces.  I still need to drill a hole for this in the casting before I can solder it in place.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055b-WaterPump-7-DSC_4309.jpg)

That’s where we left off today.

And thanks for checking in on my build!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on May 05, 2018, 02:07:08 AM
Continuing on the main pump body, I made a tab to attach one end of the pump handle.

I went with Dave's suggestion from a few posts back, to put the tab on the flat spot on the base where it is clearly supposed to go!  This is a much better idea than the one I had been planning.

I took a 1/2" length of 1/8”x1/2” brass bar stock, squared it up, and drilled a hole for the handle.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055c-WaterPump-1-DSC_4310.jpg)

Using the ‘drill bit through the hole’ technique, I rounded over the hole and shaped the tab.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055c-WaterPump-2-DSC_4313.jpg)

Then milled a 1/8” slot in the base where the tab will be silver soldered.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055c-WaterPump-3-DSC_4315.jpg)

I also needed to drill out the hole to for the output spigot fitting that I showed in the last post.  First drill through with a 1/8” bit.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055c-WaterPump-4-DSC_4317.jpg)

Then drill to the right size for the spigot.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055c-WaterPump-5-DSC_4318.jpg)

And one more thing I have to do to the main pump body before its done is to drill a hole for a 2-56 screw.  This baffled me at first, but after reading and contemplating, I now realize that it is to keep the input ball from coming up to high on the intake stroke and restricting the inflow of water.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055c-WaterPump-6-DSC_4320.jpg)

Tapping 2-56:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055c-WaterPump-7-DSC_4322.jpg)

All the pieces for the pump body so far:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055c-WaterPump-8-DSC_4325.jpg)

And this is what it should look like when soldered up:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055c-WaterPump-9-DSC_4327.jpg)

That’s it for this update.  Next time, I’ll do the silver soldering.
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 05, 2018, 02:10:58 AM
Watching with interest Kim.  :popcorn:

There's stuff to learn and I may need it later.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on May 05, 2018, 09:42:33 PM
Thanks for looking in, Zee!

Today I soldered the two pieces onto the main pump casting.  I forgot to get a picture of doing the output spigot, but here’s a ‘before’ shot of soldering the handle tab in place.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055d-WaterPump-1-DSC_4329.jpg)

And here’s the completed pump housing after some pickling and cleanup.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055d-WaterPump-2-DSC_4332.jpg)

Next I made the plunger.  Kozo calls for stainless steel, but I don’t have me some of that, and a do have a piece of brass that should work just fine.  Brass shouldn’t rust, so I think I’ll be OK.  I cut a 30 degree cone on the front of the plunger.  Not sure this is necessary, but hey, I did it anyway.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055d-WaterPump-3-DSC_4334.jpg)

Then I flipped it around in a 5C Collet Block and drilled a hole for the pivot.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055d-WaterPump-4-DSC_4336.jpg)

And then cut a 1/8” slit where it will attach to the pump handle linkage.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055d-WaterPump-5-DSC_4338.jpg)

And, the completed plunger.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055d-WaterPump-6-DSC_4340.jpg)

Not a lot of progress, but it’s a bit.  And every bit nudges me forward!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on May 05, 2018, 10:04:47 PM
Looks like good progress to me Kim. The pump body looks very nice.

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: crueby on May 05, 2018, 10:26:25 PM
Looking great! The brass should work fine, not exactly a high speed or friction item. One of the pumps I made pumped well, but leaked a bit around the plunger, so I added an O ring near the end, short of the cross holes, soved the seeps while pumping.


 :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on May 07, 2018, 12:02:35 AM
With the pump ram made, the next part is the O-ring retainer.  Chris, just like you said, I’m going to have an O-ring around the plunger, and this will help keep the O-ring in place.

Started with some Bearing Bronze (just over 1/2”).  Drilled and reamed a 3/8" hole for the plunger:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055e-WaterPump-01-DSC_4342.jpg)

Turned down the outside section to 1/2", then cut off the part.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055e-WaterPump-02-DSC_4344.jpg)

It was a perfect fit!  The plunger fit in the O-ring retainer, and the O-ring retainer fit perfectly in the pump body.
Unfortunately, they wouldn’t both fit at the same time.  :(
Somehow, my plunger hole and O-ring retainer holes were not concentric.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055e-WaterPump-03-DSC_4346.jpg)

Not sure why this happened.  I drilled and bored these holes in the same setup.  Maybe the part got bumped a little between operations.  Or maybe the bit wandered some when I was drilling the plunger hole making it out of alignment with the retainer hole.
Regardless, I needed to do something about it.  So, I decided that keeping the plunger hole tight fitting was the most important, and that I’d re-bore the O-ring retainer hole concentric with that.

To ensure concentricity, I used a 3/8” Jobber bit to line up the hole in the mill.  I put the drill in backwards and just used it as a 3/8” dowel.  I vary carefully lined things up and got it clamped down.  It was very rigid, and the 3/8” bit would go in and out with nary a hitch – all the way to the bottom!
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055e-WaterPump-04-DSC_4348.jpg)

With that alignment, I put the boring head on and reamed out the bottom part of the O-ring hole a few thousandths.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055e-WaterPump-05-DSC_4351.jpg)

Now it fits fine.  It’s a little oversized, but the O-ring should makeup for that.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055e-WaterPump-06-DSC_4353.jpg)

Next, I drilled and tapped a 2-56 hole for a screw to retain the O-ring retainer! (wonder if that screw needs something to retain it? :))
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055e-WaterPump-07-DSC_4355.jpg)

Following this, I made the top plug, to hold the spring and ball for the output valve, and the input syphon.

The top plug started as a 3/8” piece of hex brass.  I brought it to rough shape, like so:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055e-WaterPump-08-DSC_4357.jpg)

Then set the compound side to 45o and cut an angle.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055e-WaterPump-09-DSC_4361.jpg)

Next, I cut some 1/4-28 threads:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055e-WaterPump-10-DSC_4363.jpg)

And then cut off the plug.  The pip on the end will hold the spring in place.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055e-WaterPump-11-DSC_4365.jpg)

For the input syphon, it was very similar, except that I needed a hole for the water intake.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055e-WaterPump-12-DSC_4366.jpg)

Then cut some threads,
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055e-WaterPump-13-DSC_4369.jpg)

Parted it off, flipped it over in a 1/4" collet, and used a counter sink to widen the opening. I suppose, ideally, I’d have some screen across the input to filter out debris, but I’m going to ignore that for this pump.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055e-WaterPump-14-DSC_4370.jpg)

Here are the two completed parts; the top plug on the left and the intake on the right.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055e-WaterPump-15-DSC_4374.jpg)

And here’s what it looks like now, with all parts attached:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055e-WaterPump-16-DSC_4379.jpg)

Getting closer!  All that remains is seating the bearings, making a spring, and completing the handle assembly.

Thanks for looking in!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Dave Otto on May 07, 2018, 12:16:27 AM
Nice update Kim! There is a lot of work in that little guy.
Your silver soldering also turned out very nice.

Dave
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on May 07, 2018, 12:40:18 AM
Beautiful Kim!! If it works as good as it looks you will be all set.

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on May 07, 2018, 05:55:02 AM
Your silver soldering also turned out very nice.
Thanks Dave!  Hopefully it won't leak.  If it does, I guess I'll just bring it back to the fire bricks and try it again :)

Thanks Bill,  yes, I'm hoping it works too.  :)

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: scc on May 07, 2018, 12:46:47 PM
Lovely :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on May 07, 2018, 05:47:40 PM
Thanks Terry!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on May 07, 2018, 11:30:47 PM
Today was about springs. I was following Kozo's method here, but I've seen others do the similar thing using a mandrel and a wire feeder.  The mandrel was a pretty straightforward turning exercise, so no pics there.  The wire feeder was also quite simple but I had to post a picture of that since it was the first time I’ve ever used an end mill larger than 3/8”!  This is a 1/2" carbide end mill in my new Grizzly, and it made pretty short work of taking a big notch out of a 1/2” x 3/4" piece of 1018 steel.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055f-WaterPump-1-DSC_4382.jpg)
So, do the blue chips laying around mean I was pushing it too hard and the tool got too hot?  It seemed to work fine – I’m not used to that with HSS, but maybe that’s a carbide thing?

Anyway, here’s a shot of my spring making gear that I just made:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055f-WaterPump-2-DSC_4385.jpg)

And then, it's off to the lathe where I practiced making some little springs.  Even though I turned the spindle by hand, I ended up using the screw cutting feed to help position the wire in a regular way.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055f-WaterPump-3-DSC_4388.jpg)

It will take more practice to get good at this. But I made a half dozen or so decent springs and choose one among those to use.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055f-WaterPump-5-DSC_4394.jpg)

Next was to set the ball seats. I followed what Kozo said, and what I’ve seen several other people on this forum do;  I used a little length of brass as a punch, and gave a good sharp rap with a hammer to seat the ball in place.
This was for the inlet ball.  But I did the same to the outlet ball seat too.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055f-WaterPump-4-DSC_4392.jpg)

With that done, I assembled the pump according to the diagram, with the balls and spring in place:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055f-WaterPump-6-DSC_4398.jpg)

And tried it out:
F37Pg0BAyxI
Hot Diggity Dog!  It works!  :pinkelephant:

I couldn’t be happier! :)
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 07, 2018, 11:35:32 PM
Hot Diggity Dog!

It's pretty hard to beat a 'Hot Diggity Dog'.  ;D Congrats!  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: steamboatmodel on May 08, 2018, 01:15:55 AM
When you seated the ball did you remove that ball and use a new one in the valve?
Gerald.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: crueby on May 08, 2018, 02:11:50 AM
Nice job on the pump!  Where did you get the stainless wire for the springs?
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on May 08, 2018, 06:12:02 AM
When you seated the ball did you remove that ball and use a new one in the valve?
Gerald.

Interesting question... I considered it, and I kinda thought I would.  But I looked at the bearing after I had used it for the seat and didn't see any mark on it at all.  The brass is fairly soft in comparison to a stainless steel bearing I'd guess. I think the bearings are hardened too (though I'm not sure why I think that.  I believe I read it somewhere, but now I'm not sure.)

So, in the end, I didn't swap it out. I used the same ball as was used for the whacking. 

I'd be open for other people's opinion on this.  Should I swap out the bearings for un-whacked ones?  Would that be better?  Do others do this?
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on May 08, 2018, 06:39:14 AM
Nice job on the pump!  Where did you get the stainless wire for the springs?

Hi Chris,
I ordered this off Amazon.  It's stainless steel beading wire.  I'm not certain that it is 'cold drawn' stainless steel.  But it seems to be working OK.  You can stretch the spring out of shape fairly easily, but I'd expect that would be the case for any spring made of 0.012" wire. (this is 28GA which is actually 0.013"). https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0063DH7KE/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0063DH7KE/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)

If it is annealed, there should be someway to harden it?  Like heating & quenching?  Does that work for stainless?  Or does hardening it make it too brittle?  I just used it as is, but I don't know if it will have the lasting quality for a sprint.

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Bluechip on May 08, 2018, 09:38:19 AM
The label says 304 SS and it's possible to buy 304 commercial springs so I would think they can be heat treated ???

www.ebay.co.uk/itm/10pcs-304-Stainless-Steel-Spring-Compression-Pressure-Small-Springs-0-3mm-0-5mm-/263132348208

Dave
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: crueby on May 08, 2018, 02:02:05 PM
When you seated the ball did you remove that ball and use a new one in the valve?
Gerald.

Interesting question... I considered it, and I kinda thought I would.  But I looked at the bearing after I had used it for the seat and didn't see any mark on it at all.  The brass is fairly soft in comparison to a stainless steel bearing I'd guess. I think the bearings are hardened too (though I'm not sure why I think that.  I believe I read it somewhere, but now I'm not sure.)

So, in the end, I didn't swap it out. I used the same ball as was used for the whacking. 

I'd be open for other people's opinion on this.  Should I swap out the bearings for un-whacked ones?  Would that be better?  Do others do this?
Kim
Kozo suggests using a new one in case the bearing got deformed, especially if you used a steel rod to seat it.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: crueby on May 08, 2018, 02:08:02 PM
The label says 304 SS and it's possible to buy 304 commercial springs so I would think they can be heat treated ???

www.ebay.co.uk/itm/10pcs-304-Stainless-Steel-Spring-Compression-Pressure-Small-Springs-0-3mm-0-5mm-/263132348208 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/10pcs-304-Stainless-Steel-Spring-Compression-Pressure-Small-Springs-0-3mm-0-5mm-/263132348208)

Dave
300 series stainless doesnt harden by heat/quench, just by work hardening, from what I have read. If you stretch it before winding it will be better as a spring. Hold end in a vise, unroll what you need, stretch by holding other end in pliers and pull, you'll feel it stretch a bit and it will straighten and get stiffer. Then wind it.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on May 08, 2018, 04:56:47 PM
Thanks for the follow-up Dave and Chris.

300 series stainless doesnt harden by heat/quench, just by work hardening, from what I have read. If you stretch it before winding it will be better as a spring. Hold end in a vise, unroll what you need, stretch by holding other end in pliers and pull, you'll feel it stretch a bit and it will straighten and get stiffer. Then wind it.

This is great info!  I'll have to try that and see how it works out.
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on May 08, 2018, 04:58:50 PM
When you seated the ball did you remove that ball and use a new one in the valve?
Gerald.

Interesting question... I considered it, and I kinda thought I would.  But I looked at the bearing after I had used it for the seat and didn't see any mark on it at all.  The brass is fairly soft in comparison to a stainless steel bearing I'd guess. I think the bearings are hardened too (though I'm not sure why I think that.  I believe I read it somewhere, but now I'm not sure.)

So, in the end, I didn't swap it out. I used the same ball as was used for the whacking. 

I'd be open for other people's opinion on this.  Should I swap out the bearings for un-whacked ones?  Would that be better?  Do others do this?
Kim
Kozo suggests using a new one in case the bearing got deformed, especially if you used a steel rod to seat it.

Interesting.  Maybe that's why I was thinking about it in the first place (because I've read Kozo's book :) ).  It certainly works, but when under pressure, it may not seat as well if its out of round.   I did, however, use a brass punch to seat the bearing, so maybe its not too bad?

Thanks,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on May 09, 2018, 03:53:44 AM
The final part of the pump will be the handle.

I made that from a 3/8” rod.  I made it from steel, cause that’s what I had handy.  I realize that stainless would be a better choice for something that’s going to see a lot of water, but such is life.  I guess if it starts rusting out I can always make another one  :embarassed:

I rounded off one end of the rod then put a hole in the other end for the primary pivot.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055g-WaterPump-1-DSC_4405.jpg)

Then 90 degrees from that, I drilled a 1/8” hole as a termination for the 1/8” slit (that we’ll cut in the next step).
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055g-WaterPump-2-DSC_4406.jpg)

Back to the original orientation, then using a slitting saw, I cut along the top of the slit:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055g-WaterPump-3-DSC_4409.jpg)

Then along the bottom.  I got a nice little sliver of steel out of it too. This method worked pretty well.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055g-WaterPump-4-DSC_4411.jpg)

And of course, I realized I hadn’t drilled the hole for the plunger linkage.  So I had to go back and do that.  Since I’d already made the slit, I used a 1/8” scrap of aluminum and a little machinists jack to prop it up.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055g-WaterPump-5-DSC_4412.jpg)

Now for the link.  This is a piece of 1/8”x3/8” steel.  Drill the two pivot holes.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055g-WaterPump-6-DSC_4415.jpg)

Then cut it off and round the ends on the belt sander.
Here’s the pump handle pieces:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055g-WaterPump-7-DSC_4417.jpg)

And here it is all assembled.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055g-WaterPump-8-DSC_4419.jpg)

And the victory video to prove that it really does work!
5As2cn3J6Ys
Next, I’ll be hooking up the pressure gauge to make sure it will provide the pressure I need.

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on May 09, 2018, 08:59:55 PM
Well, I hooked up the pressure gauge directly to the pump, and sure enough, I can get a pretty good pressure (over 60 lbs – that’s all I need for this test) but it leaks away very quickly, like in 5-10 seconds.

I played around with all the connections and joints and am sure that nothing is leaking there.  So, I’m forced to believe that the outlet ball isn’t seating well.  In fact, eventually I noticed that I could vary the pressure up and down by moving the plunger in and out.  The plunger should only make the pressure go up, not down.  This further led me to believe that the outlet ball isn’t seating well at all.

I tried giving the bearing another good whack, to seat it better.  And I replaced the bearing with a new one, so that I’d know it was round.  But still, same issue.

It was hard to see down in the hole to see the seat, but it doesn’t look like a nice clean circle/seat like I have on the inlet bearing.

Here are my two plans:

1)   Re-drill the outlet seat – more carefully this time (I see that Kozo recommends using a D-bit, to get a nice smooth surface on the bottom of the hole.  I just used a #3 drill bit.  Maybe that didn’t make a clean enough edge to seat well.

2)   Get a check valve to go on the output side of the pump.  It’ll get up to pressure, it just won’t hold it.

I started with #1, made a D-bit, then as I was heat treating it, a humming bird flew into my shop and seemed to get stuck.  It couldn’t figure out how to get out.  So, I dropped the red-hot D-bit into the water and went to help the humming bird.

With the humming bird safely out in the wild again, I pulled the D-bit out to see that I’d melted the tip of it.  It wasn’t a D-bit anymore :(.  It was more of a blob bit.  Ah well.  Have to be more careful next time.  But not today.  That’s enough for today.

I’m blaming it on the Humming bird!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: crueby on May 09, 2018, 09:47:19 PM
A humming bird. Yeah right. And a dog ate my homework!   :lolb:

Thats got to be the wildest event I've read about in a while!

Hope the next D-bit works better. I had a small boring head bit that I was able to use on mine - got a nice flat bottom hole that way, essentially the same as a d bit.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Dave Otto on May 10, 2018, 01:13:50 AM
Hey Kim

Nice work on the pump! That twist drill probably didn't leave the best surface for a valve seat, I'm sure that you will have better luck with the D-bit; especially if you let it dwell at the bottom while coming up against the depth stop on the quill of your mill.
Another thing to think about is that brass is pretty hard and maybe you aren't smacking the ball hard enough. :lolb:
Maybe annealing the brass valve seats would soften them enough so the ball could make it's mark? Just thinking out loud here. I have no experience in this area.
Something else that you could try would be to silver solder one of the balls to a rod and use it as a lap with some compound to lap the seat in. At least you would be able to see your progress. :)

It's good to see that casting finally be turned into a usable part.


Dave
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on May 10, 2018, 01:24:43 AM
Its looking good and pumping well Kim. I think once you sort out the seal issues it should hold pressure. The above suggestions all seem reasonable as well.

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on May 10, 2018, 05:40:28 AM
Thanks Chris, Dave, and Bill,
Appreciate the thoughts on this.  This IS my first rodeo here, and I'm happy to take all the input people have to offer  O:-)

I'll have to add the lapping as another alternative to my list.  But thinking about it more, the twist drill left a "V" shaped bottom, and probably not a very smooth one at that.  The other bearing seat I made was a clean 90 degree edge on the inlet side, and it made a very solid seat using the "Whack" method.  That one is holding the pressure - It shouldn't have to, but its doing it.  Right now, the only leak I have is between the plunger and the O-ring (guess I didn't get that in there right enough.  But it works well enough to get the water up to pressure, if only the outlet bearing was seating well.

So, next time, its off to try a D-bit.

And no humming birds allowed! :)
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: fumopuc on May 10, 2018, 07:37:47 AM
Hi Kim,
may be you can find an American source for this type of valve balls.
https://www.bengs-modellbau.de/en/material/seals/157/grafi-sil-valve-balls
Perhaps this will solve your problem.
A more complicated but sure safe way is an other design of the ball seat, not easy to machine because of a self made tool for this.
See my picture below.
Left side is the worth way to do it.
Middle is better.
Right side is the best way to do it for a stainless steel ball.
 
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 10, 2018, 12:15:57 PM
Hi Kim, not to interfere...I had the same problem with the 0-4-0 British locomotive I'd made.
The valve ball in Achim's 3rd picture was what was wanted.
I took a twist drill and ground the tip off to that shape.
Something like this...(left is normal drill bit, right is ground down)
| |    | |
| |    | |
| |    | /
| |    /
\ /

But with the slash at a shallower (desired) angle.
I'm thinking (at the size I used) the drill bit was a bit too flexible and/or wobbled.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: steamboatmodel on May 10, 2018, 02:24:01 PM
I made some check valves at one time where the seat wad on a screwed in insert. To get the ball to seat you took it and the valve seat and rolled the ball around with the seat on top of it on a couple of sheet of newspaper. The ink and paper fibers got picked up by the ball and wore a seal on the seat. Washed everything off installed it and it worked.
Gerald.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on May 10, 2018, 03:39:23 PM
Hi Kim,
may be you can find an American source for this type of valve balls.
https://www.bengs-modellbau.de/en/material/seals/157/grafi-sil-valve-balls
Perhaps this will solve your problem.
A more complicated but sure safe way is an other design of the ball seat, not easy to machine because of a self made tool for this.
See my picture below.
Left side is the worst way to do it.
Middle is better.
Right side is the best way to do it for a stainless steel ball.

Thanks Achim!  This is a great picture of exactly what I am experiencing.  I'm certain I currently have the "worst" seat shown in your diagram (the first one). The D bit should give me the third one.

(http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5264.0;attach=83263;image)

The input ball seat is of the middle type and seems to be holding quite well.

Those valve balls look great!  I'll have to dig around and see if I can find anything available locally.  Though I ought to be able to get a stainless steel ball to work just fine, since many people have proven it can be done! :)

Thanks,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on May 10, 2018, 03:41:01 PM
Hi Kim, not to interfere...I had the same problem with the 0-4-0 British locomotive I'd made.
The valve ball in Achim's 3rd picture was what was wanted.
I took a twist drill and ground the tip off to that shape.
Something like this...(left is normal drill bit, right is ground down)
| |    | |
| |    | |
| |    | /
| |    /
\ /

But with the slash at a shallower (desired) angle.
I'm thinking (at the size I used) the drill bit was a bit too flexible and/or wobbled.

Nice ASCII art Zee!  ;)
Yes, I see what you're saying and I think that would give the same outcome as the D-bit I'm trying to make - it will have a 15o taper on the bottom, resulting in the third picture.

Thanks,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on May 10, 2018, 03:42:42 PM
I made some check valves at one time where the seat wad on a screwed in insert. To get the ball to seat you took it and the valve seat and rolled the ball around with the seat on top of it on a couple of sheet of newspaper. The ink and paper fibers got picked up by the ball and wore a seal on the seat. Washed everything off installed it and it worked.
Gerald.

That's a very interesting process!  If I get to trying to lap a good seal, I will give this method a try too.  Though it could be difficult in this situation since the seat is at the bottom of a narrow hole.  Guess that's why the made the seats as screw-in inserts :)

Thanks Gerald,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on May 10, 2018, 08:20:54 PM
I started by re-making the D-bit. Turned a length of 1/4" W-1 to size, then on the mill, I angled the end to 15o.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055h-WaterPump-01-DSC_4421.jpg)

Then cut the bit width down to ~51% of the diameter.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055h-WaterPump-02-DSC_4424.jpg)

Then I round a bit of a relief on the other side.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055h-WaterPump-03-DSC_4427.jpg)

And heat treated then tempered it. Here’s the final picture with the melted one on the left, and the new one on the right.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055h-WaterPump-04-DSC_4429.jpg)

I wanted to see if I could take before and after shots to see how much better this was.  So, here’s my try at the “Before”, looking down to the ball seat in the pump casting:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055h-WaterPump-05-DSC_4431.jpg)

I lined it up using a pin gauge in the mill.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055h-WaterPump-06-DSC_4437.jpg)

Then put in the D-bit and carefully made the hole about 25 -30 thousandths deeper.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055h-WaterPump-07-DSC_4439.jpg)

And here’s the ‘After’ shot. Definitely much cleaner.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055h-WaterPump-08-DSC_4441.jpg)

Then, I gave one of the bearings a solid THUMP to make the seat, and here’s wat it looked like.  You can see a nice thin seat all around the hole.  So I was very hopefully that this would work.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055h-WaterPump-09-DSC_4443.jpg)

But alas, it didn’t.  No different than before.  I even tried re-thwacking it to make a ‘better’ seat, and tried different balls, but to no avail.  Same results, still won’t hold any pressure.  :wallbang:

So now I wonder if my hole is every so slightly out of round. Though the picture above makes it look pretty round.  Or maybe that little bit of chatter you can see has caused the issue?

I’m baffled.  I could try lapping, but I don’t have anything to do that with (no abrasive paste or anything) and it doesn’t seem like it should be necessary.  I could try the newsprint thing, but the hole is too deep to make that option really feasible.

At this point, I may just go with an external check valve.  I wonder if the Whack-a-bearing approach only works in Brass?  Maybe Bronze is too hard?  Porous?  Brittle?  I dunno. There’s got to be an explanation, but I’m ready to move on I think.

And that’s the news from the shop.  As Cletus would say, "Tell everybody, hey."
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: 10KPete on May 10, 2018, 09:45:44 PM
The hole must be round and have a very good finish, like the surface you just cut. Other wise any 'defect' in the hole will also be in the 'sharp edge'.

Try reaming the smaller hole a few thou to make the hole round and smooth, then try seating again.

I have tried the 'hit the ball' method but find it to be iffy sometimes. Someone made the suggestion to lap the seat and I have found that to yield a good seat most every time, as long as the hole and the flat have good finish. A ball epoxied on the end of a stick works well, and I've used soft metal or plastic balls for the lap with good success. Need fine lapping compound also.

Pete
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: john mills on May 10, 2018, 11:30:54 PM
I have always reamed the hole ,the d bit should cut with out chatter run slow and make sure it cuts out at the full depth  complete turns at the depth .ream again to make sure a sharp edge.then only a light tap with a flat ended
punch,,not a great bash with a big hammer.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on May 11, 2018, 12:15:38 AM
Thanks for the reference Kim  8). If you decide to have another go with the “D - bit”, try turning it by hand with just a fanny hair of pressure on the quill. Bronze could be a bit harder and require a bigger hammer: but, here in Tennessee we rank every job on the size hammer it took to get the job done :lolb:. I’ll be following along for updates.

Cletus
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: steamboatmodel on May 11, 2018, 12:53:37 AM
It does not work as well as proper lapping compound, but tooth paste or polish will work.
Gerald.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on May 11, 2018, 03:26:19 AM
Thanks Pete, John, Cletus and Gerald,
I really appreciate the comments.  And, after a day of reflection, I'm going to give it another go.  I was a tad frustrated with it this morning.  But hey, if I get this working, all I'm going to do is work on the next problem.  So, why not work on this one a little longer and see if I can figure it out!  (He says, with his more optimistic side shining through :))

John, you gave a good step by step. I may try that before I move to lapping.  I've been giving it a pretty good wallop, so maybe I'm being too aggressive.  I'll try a much gentler rap after I get the surfaces cleaned up again.

And if that doesn't cut it, I will give lapping a go.  I've got some pumice stone that I've used for wood working finishes.  Wonder if that would work here?  It's at least something I have on hand!

I will put your ideas into action next time I'm out in the shop.

Thanks again for your words of encouragement and advice!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on May 12, 2018, 12:21:46 AM
OK, here’s the results of my next series of tests.

1)   First I did John’s process: used the D-bit again to re-surface the seat, then used the 1/8” reamer to clean up the hole.  Then I gave a light bearing whack, reassembled, and no luck.  Still the same leaking.
2)   Second, I tried the lapping thing. I used red Loctite to fix a bearing to the end of a 1/8” steel rod.  Then, using that I made a little paste with oil and the pumice stone that I had.  This is 4F powder, so its very fine. I twisted about with that for a while on the bearing seat, then tried it again.  Still the same.  Leaked like a sieve.
3)   Third, I made a check valve.  The rest of this post relates to that.

I drew up a quick plan for a little check valve.  I based it on materials I had – a 5/32” bearing, and 3/8” Hex brass.

Here’s the main body.  First I drilled & reamed a 1/8” hole about 1 1/8” deep:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055i-WaterPump-01-DSC_4457.jpg)

Next, I drilled and tapped some 5/16”-24 threads.  This will be the input end of the check valve (hook directly to the pump).
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055i-WaterPump-02-DSC_4459.jpg)

Drilling a 1/8” side hole for the output.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055i-WaterPump-03-DSC_4461.jpg)

And widening to 1/4" for the place to solder on the output port.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055i-WaterPump-04-DSC_4462.jpg)

I made the output port and the plug to hold the spring and bearing.  No pics of these since they were nearly identical to parts made a few days back.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055i-WaterPump-05-DSC_4466.jpg)

Well, I got a little excited with my silver soldering. Can’t blame this on the humming bird :(.  Actually, now that I think about it, I’m going to blame it on all the welding I recently did.  There’s a BIG difference in soldering vs welding.  I’m going to have to get my ‘soldering legs’ back.  I really fried this puppy.  But I think I can clean it up and still use it.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055i-WaterPump-06-DSC_4468.jpg)

Back to the hex collet – faced off the other end.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055i-WaterPump-07-DSC_4471.jpg)

Drilled it #3:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055i-WaterPump-08-DSC_4473.jpg)

Then used the D-bit to ream it out a tad and make the valve seat.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055i-WaterPump-09-DSC_4474.jpg)

Thread 1/4"-28 for the plug.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055i-WaterPump-10-DSC_4477.jpg)

Did a very gentle bearing whack, then assembled it, and here we are on the pump:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055i-WaterPump-11-DSC_4478.jpg)

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055i-WaterPump-12-DSC_4479.jpg)

Interestingly, this didn’t seem to work much better.  So, I tried a harder whack, and it seemed to actually hold up to about 20 lbs.  That was twice as good at before.

But I kept trying it – pumping it some more and it went up to 35, then 40, then 50, and then 60!  What’s interesting, is that it seemed to get a little better with use.  Maybe the ball bearing/seat combo has to break in together or something?  I don’t know, but it really started to work!

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055i-WaterPump-13-DSC_4481.jpg)

So now I’ve left it sitting there for a while watching the pressure go down.  Here’s a table of my readings:

T (min) P (lbs)
0 63
14 58.5
23 55
30 52
45 49
55 46.5
87 42.5
110 38.5
129 36

And you can’t have a table like this without a graph:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/055i-WaterPump-14-Graph.JPG)

It looks like my valve is leaking about 1/3 lb per minute for the first 30 min, and about .2 lb/min for the next hour and flattening out.  Probably a reasonable curve as the loss will slow as the pressure decreases.

Now my question (for any of you who have made it this far):  Is this good enough to do a boiler test with?  Or will I be fighting the system more than the boiler?

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: 10KPete on May 12, 2018, 12:30:22 AM
You need not rely on the pump check. For testing you can put a shut-off valve in the line...

Pete
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: crueby on May 12, 2018, 12:31:58 AM
Just a thought - have you checked to make sure there is no leak at the gauge end of the tubing, or in the union from the pump to the tubing?
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on May 12, 2018, 12:46:30 AM
You need not rely on the pump check. For testing you can put a shut-off valve in the line...

Pete
That's a brilliant idea Pete!  :D (Duh, he says, why didn't I think of that?  ::))

Just a thought - have you checked to make sure there is no leak at the gauge end of the tubing, or in the union from the pump to the tubing?
Well, I have check fairly well.  When I saw water beading up here or there next to a connection, or dripping from somewhere, I'd find out where it was coming from and tighten things up or fix the leak somehow.  I don't THINK there's any leaks at the gauge or connections, but I could be wrong.

That's the reason I've been assuming it was the check-ball leaking, because I'm not seeing water anywhere, so the only place I could think of that is going is back through the check valve.

Anyway, its working much better than before.  I must have an out of round hole in my bronze pump casting.  Or something...

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on May 12, 2018, 12:48:25 AM
Kim, you are a lot better off than you were yesterday for sure. Still puzzling though why the original seat didn't work better. Maybe the spring was the critical component in the new design.

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on May 12, 2018, 03:35:16 AM
Kim, you are a lot better off than you were yesterday for sure. Still puzzling though why the original seat didn't work better. Maybe the spring was the critical component in the new design.

Bill
Thanks Bill,
Yes, definitely better than yesterday!

I don't think it was the spring - I changed the spring with various lengths and tensions in the original one and it never seemed to alter the behavior.  And with this new check valve I made today, this was the first spring I tried (probably one I'd tried in the casting valve too :)).

Who knows...

I think if I'd had better lapping compound and stuck with that, I might have gotten there.  But I gave up after a try or two and went with making an external brass valve.  Seems to have worked for me!  ;)

Thanks,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on May 12, 2018, 10:34:32 PM
My plan today is to hydro-test the boiler.

I had to start by making a plug and jury rigging my piping together.  The shutoff valve I had had a 1/8” NTP fitting on one end, and a 1/4"compression fitting on the other.  Unfortunately, everything else was setup for 1/8” tubing.  So I silver soldered some 1/8” tubing to 3/16” to 1/4" to get there (you can see this between the pump and the boiler).  It seems to work fine.

Here’s my test setup. The pump is sitting in a tub of water, and the boiler is in a dry tub.  I wanted to make sure that I didn’t dribble water everywhere when I found a leak.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/056a-BoilerTesting-1-DSC_4486.jpg)

I filled the boiler up using the top opening (this will be for the pressure release valve).
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/056a-BoilerTesting-2-DSC_4489.jpg)

With the boiler full, I put a plug in that hole and pumped up the pressure.  Sure enough, it went down slowly – I had a leak somewhere.  “Ah… its leaking around the plug I just put in.”  So, out it comes, and I used PTFE tape on it and reinsert.

Great!  No leaks there, but now the front seems to be leaking.  I was worried that I had a leak there, around the bushings.  But it turned out, again, to be the threaded joints for the test hardware.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/056a-BoilerTesting-3-DSC_4491.jpg)

So I use PTFE on both of those, and try again (you can see all threaded joints have tape now).
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/056a-BoilerTesting-4-DSC_4493.jpg)


I pump it up again and close the shutoff valve at the boiler input, and here is my pressure reading:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/056a-BoilerTesting-5-DSC_4494.jpg)

I set my timer to check on it later, and after 30 min, no detectable leaks anywhere.   The pressure went down a couple of pounds, but there was NO water anywhere.  No weeping at any joint or seam – the thing was bone dry.

I repeated the test – pressure up to just over 60lbs, wait 30 min, and again, no water anywhere, but the pressure had dropped from, say, 65lbs to 62lbs.

I’m wondering if this could just be my cheap cut-off valve leaking a little?  Or if I need to do a better investigation for a leak?

Like I said, I can’t find ANY moisture anywhere on the boiler.  I dried it off really well after filling (and fixing the thread leaks) and it just is bone dry, which is what makes me think it is sneaking back past the shutoff valve.  But you guys with more experience, is this acceptable?  Or do I need to do more sleuthing?

I’m still quite happy with the results!

Thanks,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: crueby on May 12, 2018, 10:55:46 PM
Excellent test. Not uncommon for the metal to stretch a little bit, coupe of pressure up and down cycles and it should stop. Possible that there was just a little air at the top that bled out. Try trurning it on it side if you can, or at least tip the whole tray. Nice!
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on May 13, 2018, 04:39:39 PM
Thanks Chris!

I ran one more test last night while I was watching TV with my wife.

I pressured up the boiler to a tad over 60 lbs (maybe 65? - hard to tell since there are no marks above 60).  And checked on it about 2 hours later.   It had only lost about 1 lb.  so I'm saying that is pretty good!  :cartwheel:
I'll call the hydro-testing phase complete and will move on with the build.

Thanks,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: steamboatmodel on May 13, 2018, 10:30:04 PM
Hi Kim,
Your rig looks good, but there is one thing you should improve. When working with pressure gauges the middle third of the gauge scale is where you want your readings to fall. For the gauge you are using this would be between 20 and 40 psig.
Gerald.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on May 14, 2018, 05:26:03 AM
Thanks Gerald,

Well, in practice it should be running around 30 lbs, which would be right in the center of the gauge.  maybe I should have gotten a bigger gauge for my testing.  I was hoping that I could get by with one, but maybe that was a silly place to economize.  Would you generally suggest a separate gauge to use for testing? One with twice the range of the one you intend to use in practice?

Thanks for the advice.  As you can likely tell, I'm quite the novice at this!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Don1966 on May 17, 2018, 12:43:27 AM
Just catching up on your bulit log Kim I been falling behind lately. Very nice work and looks like your silver soldering Skills are really looking great. Test results on your boiler looks great and I agree with Gerald on the gauge. Very nice work all around Kim even with the mishaps which are common to all of us.
 :ThumbsUp:


 :cheers:
Don
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on May 18, 2018, 01:55:19 AM
Thanks Don!
Nice to know you're still following my slow progress :)
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: steamboatmodel on May 18, 2018, 10:29:00 PM
Thanks Gerald,

Well, in practice it should be running around 30 lbs, which would be right in the center of the gauge.  maybe I should have gotten a bigger gauge for my testing.  I was hoping that I could get by with one, but maybe that was a silly place to economize.  Would you generally suggest a separate gauge to use for testing? One with twice the range of the one you intend to use in practice?

Thanks for the advice.  As you can likely tell, I'm quite the novice at this!
Kim
Yes defiantly a separate gauge for testing. I usually try to find one with as large a dial as possible,  and with the max test pressure anticipated in the centre of the scale. Worked at a Hydraulic service shop once and there test pump had five different gauges from 180 to 6000psi, they would not let me test my boilers with it though as it was filled with oil.
Gerald.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on May 19, 2018, 09:16:57 PM
Thanks Gerald,
I do appreciate the input!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on May 19, 2018, 09:18:54 PM
Now, to mount the boiler in the boiler casing!

But wait…  it doesn’t fit :(
 (http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/057a-FireboxBacksheet-1-DSC_4498.jpg)

The water pipes hit the boiler casing about 1 1/2" too soon!
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/057a-FireboxBacksheet-2-DSC_4500.jpg)

Duh… of course, I should have checked this before the boiler testing and probably even before soldering it up. Ah well, you live, you learn.

So, I annealed the copper with the torch, trying to be careful around the joints – hoping to leave those alone, but soften the tubes and the boiler right around where the tubes join.  Then I use a hammer and a piece of aluminum as a soft punch, to help decrease the diameter of the boiler right around where the tubes go in.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/057a-FireboxBacksheet-3-DSC_4502.jpg)

And there you go, now it fits!
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/057a-FireboxBacksheet-4-DSC_4503.jpg)

But, since I got it all hot and banged it around, it seemed prudent to repeat the hydro test on the boiler.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/057a-FireboxBacksheet-5-DSC_4506.jpg)
The test seems to be going well, once I got the fittings not to leak again!

While the boiler test is going on, I made the Firebox Backsheet. This will hold the boiler in place from the cab side.
Here I’m drilling 1/2" holes for the bushings on the back of the boiler.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/057a-FireboxBacksheet-6-DSC_4509.jpg)

And the completed Firebox Backsheet.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/057a-FireboxBacksheet-7-DSC_4512.jpg)

When I’m happy with the boiler hydro test, we’ll get back to mounting the boiler!

Thanks for stopping by,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Dave Otto on May 19, 2018, 10:39:12 PM
Looks good Kim!


Dave
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on May 20, 2018, 12:51:56 AM
Very nice save Kim. That would have been a bummer to have to do it all again.

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Craig DeShong on May 20, 2018, 01:26:46 AM
Hydro testing... a pain in the   :censored: but ya gotta do it.  Looks like your test is a success, smooth sailing now. :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: 10KPete on May 20, 2018, 02:35:38 AM
Looking good Kim! Make sure those water tubes are well clear of any rubbing caused by thermal excursions or they will quickly develop holes!  :stickpoke:

Not what you want later.... :o

How do I know..... :hammerbash:

Pete
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on May 20, 2018, 06:06:26 AM
Thanks Dave, Bill, Craig, and Pete, I appreciate the comments.

I think the tubes should have a minimum of clearance there.  The Firebox plate should hold it out of harms way.  At least now I can make sure it will!  (Not that I think I'll be running this much - probably an demo or two, and then it will be a nice static display piece.  We'll see...)

Thanks for stopping by!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Roger B on May 20, 2018, 08:26:54 AM
Good work on the boiler  :praise2:  :praise2:
A couple of late thoughts on your valve problems:
Could there have been some porosity in the pump casting? Tjark had problems on his Kiwi due to a porous piston.
I recollect reading or being told that if you hit a ball to make a seating don't use it again but throw it away as it will be slightly out of round. I have always done this on my injection pumps which are a steel seating. Ball bearings are cheap.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: gbritnell on May 20, 2018, 12:14:02 PM
Your meticulous work will result in excellent results. After annealing the pipes most people would have quit there. Looks great!
gbritnell
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on May 20, 2018, 03:15:31 PM
Thanks Roger and George,
Really appreciate your comments and following along to help me fix my missteps!  (Of which I make many!!!!)

Roger, yes, porosity of the casting is something I considered, though I am certainly not an authority to be able to make that determination.  Thanks for the suggestion of not re-using the bearings used to create the seat.  That is something that I did do (the second time around) and am not sure that it helped much in my case.  But I agree, they are inexpensive and it seems like a VERY good precaution to take regardless!

Thank you for your help and advice,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on May 27, 2018, 04:48:16 PM
Now, to mount the boiler in the Boiler Casing.

To hold the front part of the boiler, I needed to make a little “L” bracket.  So, here’s the bracket I made:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/058a-MountingTheBoiler-1-DSC_4517.JPG)

Bolting the Boiler Back Sheet in place, I now see that the holes don’t line up :(
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/058a-MountingTheBoiler-2-DSC_4521.JPG)

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/058a-MountingTheBoiler-3-DSC_4519.JPG)

To fix this, I unbent the backplate, and made it about 1/8” shorter.  And now it looks pretty good:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/058a-MountingTheBoiler-4-DSC_4522.JPG)

And looking in from the front, you can see the “L” bracket bolted in place to hold the front end of the boiler.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/058a-MountingTheBoiler-5-DSC_4526.JPG)

Now, to address the next problem.   The bushings in the top of the boiler don’t line up with the hole for the steam dome very well.   I’m quite sure I followed the dimensions in the plan very carefully, but somehow, I’m off by a good bit here. :(
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/058a-MountingTheBoiler-6-DSC_4528.JPG)

Ah well.  My solution?  Widen the hole.  With the engine removed, I mounted the boiler casing in the mill and made the hole in the casing a little bigger:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/058a-MountingTheBoiler-7-DSC_4533.JPG)

OK, that ought to work.  I may have to make the steam dome just a tad bigger to cover this, we’ll see.  But I’m OK with that. This isn’t an exact replica anyway :)
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/058a-MountingTheBoiler-8-DSC_4537.JPG)

Now that I’ve got the boiler fitting, I think the Steam Dome is next on the agenda.

Thanks for following along.
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: zeeprogrammer on May 27, 2018, 05:02:03 PM
I missed a lot while I was gone.

Nice progress!
More importantly, great job not letting the little problems slow you down.  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: scc on May 27, 2018, 06:25:11 PM
Hi Kim, I've been quietly following along :popcorn:   Very impressive progress :ThumbsUp:            Terry
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on May 27, 2018, 06:30:09 PM
Seems as if you are getting quite good at the art of “fitting” , and that’s an accomplishment in itself  :ThumbsUp:  Nice work and I’m here with  :popcorn: &  :DrinkPint:..

Cletus

Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on May 27, 2018, 08:54:21 PM
Great to see your progress Kim. Nice work too on getting the holes lined up!!

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on May 28, 2018, 05:28:29 PM
Zee, Terry, Cletus, and Bill, thanks for the comments!

Yes, seems you have to get good at 'fitting'.  At least I do.  Somehow, the small errors add up, and I'm not prepared to remake either the boiler, or the boiler casing/chassis.  Maybe I'm just not dedicated enough, but this seemed like a much better solution to me!

Thanks for following along, I appreciate the support.
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on May 29, 2018, 03:21:24 AM
I started on the Steam Dome today.

For the saddle (I think that’s what this is called) I cut a circle of 1/32” brass sheet.  I used an appropriately sized hole in my drill press for this:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/059a-SteamDome-1-DSC_4541.JPG)

Cutting the disk this way left really nasty edges on the part.  So, I mounted it on a 1/4" mandrel (sometimes called a 1/4" bolt :)) and cleaned it up with a file.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/059a-SteamDome-2-DSC_4543.JPG)

Then I bent it around an unused piece of the DOM tube from the Boiler Casing.  It was hard going till I annealed the piece of brass and then wowie kazowie!  It just happened!  I probably should have started with the annealing step.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/059a-SteamDome-3-DSC_4545.JPG)

Next I cut a piece of the same 1/32” brass sheet to be the upright portion of the steam dome.  I used the scroll saw for this and it went fairly quickly.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/059a-SteamDome-4-DSC_4547.JPG)

Here I’ve squared up the sawed edges, and its ready for rolling.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/059a-SteamDome-5-DSC_4550.JPG)

I still have that little (8”?) 3-in-1 Sheet Metal Machine that a friend loaned me.  I used that for the rollers. It worked OK, but I’m still not sure this is the solution for me.  I may end up getting a little set of dedicated rollers.  This still feels so “all purpose” that it doesn’t really serve any of them well.
But it worked for this:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/059a-SteamDome-6-DSC_4553.JPG)

I used some tape and a little set of vice-grips to hold things in place while I drilled the first rivet hole.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/059a-SteamDome-7-DSC_4556.JPG)

After placing that first rivet, I went back and drilled the remaining rivet holes.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/059a-SteamDome-8-DSC_4558.JPG)

And here’s the completed Steam Dome tube, sitting by what will be the saddle.  (If I’m using that term incorrectly, please do let me know!)
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/059a-SteamDome-9-DSC_4560.JPG)

Next, I’ll be shaping the bottom of the tube and soldering it to the saddle.
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: gbritnell on May 29, 2018, 12:41:24 PM
It's coming along nicely Kim. It's amazing how workable the brass is with a little annealing. You just have to be careful with subsequent drilling or machining because the tools will tend to grab in the soft brass.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on May 29, 2018, 07:50:08 PM
Thanks George!
I'll have to be careful of that, because I do have to do some additional work on that piece.
Is there any way to harden brass?  Short of work hardening it by bending?  I could unbend and re-bend, but I'm afraid I'd end up where I was before and the brass wouldn't bend to shape and just spring back...

Thanks,
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: crueby on May 29, 2018, 09:43:35 PM
Thanks George!
I'll have to be careful of that, because I do have to do some additional work on that piece.
Is there any way to harden brass?  Short of work hardening it by bending?  I could unbend and re-bend, but I'm afraid I'd end up where I was before and the brass wouldn't bend to shape and just spring back...

Thanks,
Kim
Work hardening, either bending or hammering/rolling is the only way, brass and copper does not harden with heat treating. Does not take much bending, just flexing it can do the trick.
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Steamer5 on June 02, 2018, 07:08:39 AM
Hydro testing... a pain in the   :censored: but ya gotta do it.  Looks like your test is a success, smooth sailing now. :ThumbsUp:

Try hydro testing 9.5 kilometers of subsea pipeline that goes up & down hill!........first attempt didn’t work, why not well you can’t get the gas out of the hi point! After 4 days trying we finally managed to get a soft pig into the pipework offshore........this is on an unmanned platform so daylight only allowed. By the time I get to work to night hopefully the pig should have done its job & pushed the gas out.....

Hi Kim,
 Still following look great!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Zephyrin on June 02, 2018, 08:40:32 AM
Very nice work with the boiler, casing and pump, you get out of all the traps easily; a very interesting thread all around...
I didn't see any layer of insulating material inside the casing, do you have room for a 2 to 3 mm layer of ceramic fibre, as we put on small gauge locos ?
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on June 02, 2018, 05:52:54 PM
Try hydro testing 9.5 kilometers of subsea pipeline that goes up & down hill!........first attempt didn’t work, why not well you can’t get the gas out of the hi point! After 4 days trying we finally managed to get a soft pig into the pipework offshore........this is on an unmanned platform so daylight only allowed. By the time I get to work to night hopefully the pig should have done its job & pushed the gas out.....
Hope you get it working quickly Kerrin!  Sounds like a royal pain!

Very nice work with the boiler, casing and pump, you get out of all the traps easily; a very interesting thread all around...
I didn't see any layer of insulating material inside the casing, do you have room for a 2 to 3 mm layer of ceramic fibre, as we put on small gauge locos ?
Thanks Zephyrin!
Interesting thought on insulation.  Rudy doesn't seem to us any, and there isn't any room on the top, maybe some around the sides.  But I'm not sure it will see enough running to be worth any insulation.  But I guess you could say that about the rest of it  :naughty:  But I won't!  :Jester:

I'm having a grand time and I think it will work!

Thanks for the comments guys!
Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on June 03, 2018, 04:43:46 PM
Well, not a lot of progress on the steam tractor today.  I had several things around the house that I’d been putting off.  One of which was to rebuild our gate.  Its been in bad shape for several years, but this winter some of the boards rotted completely through and were falling off.  Clearly time to do something about it.  So this was my solution:

(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/059a-SteamDome-1-DSC_4564.jpg)

Like I said, not much on the tractor, but a good bit of work for the day regardless.  And it looks pretty good if I do say so myself!

Kim
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: b.lindsey on June 03, 2018, 05:05:01 PM
Beautiful Kim!!

Bill
Title: Re: Steam Tractor 3/4" (Rudy K)
Post by: Kim on June 04, 2018, 12:52:19 AM
Thanks Bill! :)


Got some shop time time today, so made a little more progress on the Steam Dome.

I needed to cut an arc into the bottom of the Steam Dome tube that I’d riveted up last time.  So, I used the same dowel that I used for drilling the rivet holes to help the tube keep its form, and clamped it in the vise.  Then used the boring head set to the appropriate diameter and carved a nice arc in the base.  Like so:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/059b-SteamDome-1-DSC_4570.jpg)

It lined up nicely with the saddle, and I made a little jig to hold it together and set it up for silver soldering:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/059b-SteamDome-2-DSC_4572.jpg)

Here’s the after soldering shot.  It worked out pretty well.  I could have used a bit less solder (got a couple of blobs) but it turned out pretty nice.  I used the #000 tip on my OA torch, and maybe I should have used a bigger one – there was a lot of metal here (and my jig added some heat sink too.  But I got it done.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/059b-SteamDome-3-DSC_4574.jpg)

And after some clean up, here’s what it looks like:
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/059b-SteamDome-4-DSC_4577.jpg)

Then I had to take a quick peak of it sitting on the top of the boiler, where it will be mounted soon.
(http://listerengine.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10008/059b-SteamDome-5-DSC_4579.jpg)

Thanks for stopping by!
K