Model Engine Maker

Engines => Your Own Design => Topic started by: gbritnell on July 07, 2014, 04:29:13 PM

Title: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on July 07, 2014, 04:29:13 PM
Gentlemen,

 For many years I've had a project in mind to build a Ford flathead V-8 engine. The unique thing about the Ford flathead is that the exhaust runners ran through the water jacket and out the side of the block. Actually this was not a good idea as the extra heat from the exhaust added to the cooling woes of this particular engine. That being said I still wanted to try and build one.
 For you fellows who follow my work know I scratch build all of my models from bar stock so after many hours of layouts and drawings I just couldn't come up with a way of fabricating this type of engine from solid. The next plan was to make patterns and coreboxes. I had heard from someone that the old flatheads used 23 cores in the casting process. Having come from a Ford foundry where we cast all types of engines at first I couldn't fathom why this engine would use that many cores. A 302 V-8 engine uses 10 cores and 2 molds, cope and drag. Here again after many hours of layouts and drawings I can now understand why they used so many cores.
  Now I've put countless hours into engine and model building but to make all of the coreboxes and patterns required for this engine just seemed a little over the top. I had to ask myself if I really went ahead and made them all and took them to a foundry for casting what would be the cost of making all those cores and casting an engine.  Furthermore what would happen if some of the coreboxes go lost or damaged.
 It was time for an entirely new game plan! I still wanted to build a flathead but the Ford type was out of the question so the next best thing is the Cadillac design. The difference in this engine compared to the Ford is that all the ports, intake and exhaust,  come out of the top of the block. There are castings out there for this type. They are for the Challenger V-8 that Cole's sells but here again I like to make my own engines so it was back to the drawing board.
 I have the rough Cad drawings made and have converted them into a solid model. I'm presenting them here for your perusal.
 With winter just around the corner, I know it's only July but with the way time flies it'll be here in no time so I'm getting a head start on the project.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: sshire on July 07, 2014, 04:59:57 PM
George
Only 23 cores?
Can't wait to follow the upcoming build as I have learned so much from seeing how you approach and execute each part. Thanks for letting us look over your shoulder.  It's a privilege.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Don1966 on July 07, 2014, 07:55:12 PM
George I am differently in on this one. I would miss this for anything.


 :popcornsmall:

Don
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: vcutajar on July 07, 2014, 08:17:32 PM
Me too. I'm in.  Will be following along quietly trying to absorb the information.

Vince
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: crankshafter on July 07, 2014, 08:36:18 PM
George.
I'm in. Let the show begin :bandrock:
Flatheads have and will be my favorit engines.
CS
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: maury on July 07, 2014, 10:43:58 PM
George, what an interesting project. If you are interested, I would be willing to help with the design and implementation of the foundry/pattern part of your project. I may have a bit of extra time as summer comes to an end. I also can have your engine cast in iron for a quite reasonable price. Let me know.

Thanks,
maury
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: cfellows on July 07, 2014, 11:35:17 PM
George, you're a man after my own heart.  I turned 16 in 1959 and even though Ford was no longer making them, the then older Ford Flathead V8's were the most we could afford.  I still have a real affection for them.  I had planned to make a compressed air version of the Ford Flathead but being true to the original design was more than I bargained for, so I settled for my own V-8 design.  I would still like to make a compressed air version of the Ford engine at some point.

Chuck
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: jeff l on July 08, 2014, 12:20:24 AM
 I'm in .Jeff
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: steamer on July 08, 2014, 06:33:54 AM
Oh Man!   Are you kidding?!    Of course I'm in!

 :cheers:

Dave
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Roger B on July 08, 2014, 07:45:02 AM
Looks like another fascinating project  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp: I will definitely be following along  :popcorn: Have you considered spark eroding/EDM for some of the more complicated holes? The tool room at a company I used to work at used it for complicated passages in extrusion tooling.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Art K on July 08, 2014, 11:22:09 PM
George,
I wouldn't miss this one!
Art
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: b.lindsey on July 09, 2014, 12:24:35 AM
Another masterful project I will be following George. Looking forward to the ride.

Bill
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Dave Otto on July 09, 2014, 12:50:04 AM
Looking forward to watching another engine created by one of the greats in the hobby.

Dave
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on July 17, 2014, 07:20:58 PM
I have been working on the head drawings. With no real way to drill holes through the length of the head I had to come up with another way of getting water in and through it. I think I found the solution, make the heads from two pieces, an upper and a lower. Once machined the internal bosses and flange will be coated with high temp epoxy and then clamped together. With no real stress on the heads this should work well. 
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: BronxFigs on July 17, 2014, 09:42:22 PM
I really admire all you builders who never seem to be daunted by machining and design problems.  You just approach the problems from a different angle and come up with solutions and designs that are unique.  The best part is that you share the results of your concepts, and machining skills, with model engine builders all over the world.  I, for one, and I am sure others feel this same way, are in your debt.

You, Chuck Fellows Steve Huck, and some others can loudly sing a few choruses of... "I Did It My Way"....


Many thanks for your generosity.



Frank
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: DavidF on July 18, 2014, 05:08:59 AM
Im tuned in!!!
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on July 24, 2014, 10:54:56 PM
I've had time to model a few more parts, the intake and exhaust manifolds. As with the heads the intake will also be a fabrication, the main upper part and the lower cover plate/mounting flange. This will be made from brass like my 302 intake and silver soldered together.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: kvom on July 24, 2014, 11:02:42 PM
Rounding the ends on all those little fins in the heads might be tricky.  Waiting to see how you handle that.

Fascinating project.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on July 27, 2014, 02:10:19 PM
Gentlemen,
Not much time spent in the shop as this summer seems to be racing by at supersonic speeds so I have to enjoy every minute of it that I can. In the evenings when everything quiets down I sit at the computer working with my CAD programs and continue with the design and modeling of the engine. I have the timing cover finished along with a water pump. The parts that require mirror opposites won't be modeled mainly because of the many hours that it takes to do just the original and one is all that's needed to see what it looks like and how it will fit.
To give an idea of the size of the engine I kind of started making drawings of a full sized Ford flathead and then scaled them by 3 tenths (.30). With the change in design the cylinder spacing was moved a little closer so that shortened the block by a little. Right now the length of the bare block is 6.75 and the width is about 3.00 inches.
As with any of these projects adjustments have to be made for the purposes of modeling, wall thicknesses, fastener sizes etc.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: maury on July 27, 2014, 05:32:48 PM
George, very nice modeling. I can't  wait to see this one next April. BTW, thanks for the video of the 6 cyl over on the Smokstak. It was a pleasure to watch. Also a vey nice engine.

It's good to see someone preserving these historic engines.

maury
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Johnmcc69 on July 27, 2014, 10:18:45 PM
Nice work George! I'm loving this! I'm not sure what CAD you are using, but some programs have the ability to save a mirror image of parts & assemblies as new (or dependent) files. In Pro-E, I can go to "file" & "Mirror part/assembly". I use this a lot when modeling traction engine wheels with the grouters, hubs, & spokes.

 Keep the updates coming.

 John
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Mosey on July 27, 2014, 10:26:18 PM
george,
I have my seat belt fastened for another fantastic journey watching you build! Can't wait.
Mosey
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Art K on July 27, 2014, 10:57:05 PM
George,
It's great to see your progress on this engine. Just out of curiosity how did Ford route the exhaust through the block? I know they have 3 ports on the outside of the block, Did they all run through the water jacket with the center cylinders siamesed? I wish I knew someone with a block laying around to look at.
Art
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on July 28, 2014, 01:55:40 AM
Hi John,
I'm using an older version of Solidworks that my son used in school. I'm self taught on this one so I pick up things as I use it. It does have the ability to mirror images but if you delete the original the mirror is corrupted, at least the way I'm doing it. If someone can help me I'm open for suggestions.
Art,
The center 2 exhaust runners come from the valve pockets on top of the block and curve around the inner two cylinders which are spaced farther apart to accommodate them. Where they meet they are siamesed together and then exit the outside of the block. The end two runners curve around the outside of the end cylinders and then out of the block. The runners are spaced away from the cylinder walls to allow coolant to circulate between them. Even at that these engines were known to overheat rather easily. If you do a search for Ford flathead block images and look at the head deck you will see a large water opening between the center two cylinders and inside of this opening you will see the exhaust runner curving around the cylinder.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Art K on July 28, 2014, 03:37:13 AM
George,
Thanks for the photo and explanation.
Art
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: steamer on July 28, 2014, 09:46:28 AM
Coming along great George!    Following along!

Dave
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: jschoenly on July 28, 2014, 02:02:31 PM
George,

If you don't mind the file size getting a little large, here is what I do (with Solidworks).  You can create a new part file (say "Left" if the currently modeled part is "Right").  Under insert, you can bring in the "right" part in this new model (don't give it any constraints and it uses the same original as the other part).  Then (using the cylinder head as an example) I would use the sealing surface of the head as the mirror plane and use the mirror function BUT....  Look for the "merge" either results or solids check box.  Un-check that box and you will end up with two heads touching at the gasket surface.  Having not merged them, you should also end up with a "solid bodies" section of the model tree and there should be 2 if you open the check box.  If you hide the original body, you are left with the mirrored head (and a little larger file size).  The cool thins about this is if you then make changes to the "right" head, when you open the "left" you just created, it will update the changes in the mirror's version. 

This is a great way to make a "complete" model.  If you also wanted to make a right and left with MOST of the same mirrored features, make a generic Right model, then insert that (which has the shared features) into a new "right" part like above without the mirror and make some other features there.  Then you can do the "left" part like above as well.  You can do some really amazing things with a little patience. ;)  If you need any help with that or interested in other tid-bits, feel free to contact me. 

Jared
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: dieselpilot on July 28, 2014, 02:59:52 PM
If the parts are truly identical the mirror function is perfect and you shouldn't have a situation where you delete the original part. If you must create a mirrored part with no associations I create a copy and go through the feature tree from top to bottom reversing extrude directions, etc., feature by feature and correct errors as I go along. This is much easier than it sounds as most features fall right into place.

Greg
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on July 28, 2014, 03:12:21 PM
Thanks fellows,
I knew someone out there would steer me in the right direction.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on July 30, 2014, 07:54:57 PM
Well I have now added mirroring to my skill set but it took a little doing. Since then I have added a few more parts. Thanks again fellows. The pan took some head scratching but came out the way I wanted it.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: b.lindsey on July 30, 2014, 09:37:19 PM
Lots of parts there George, just waiting for your magic touch!!  Looking great.

Bill
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Johnmcc69 on July 31, 2014, 03:11:09 AM
Wow George! Fantastic modeling for being self taught. No doubt this will be another work of art. Can't wait to see the chips fly.

 John
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Mosey on July 31, 2014, 05:49:31 PM
If ever there was a good candidate for 3D printing, it's that pan, but then, we'd miss seeing George carve it out of billet!
Mosey
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Roger B on July 31, 2014, 06:36:54 PM
Or make some dies and deep draw it  :mischief:
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: cfellows on August 01, 2014, 04:47:39 AM
Issue 31 of Model Engine Builder has an article featuring Roger Butzen's Ford flathead model engine.  Plans are apparently also for sale.

Chuck
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on October 30, 2014, 11:58:13 PM
Gentlemen,
Well the exhibition season is over. I attended the Zanesville, Ohio show a couple of weeks back and when I got home everything was cleaned up and put away till spring. Boy I don't know if I'll make it!
It was time to start making some chips. Although I had purchased the aluminum about 6 weeks ago I got sidetracked helping a fellow get one of his engines running so with that out of the way it was time to start. To get a piece of aluminum large enough I had to buy a piece of 6" round 7-1/4" long. Man I thought brass was getting expensive but it trickled down to the aluminum also.  I took the piece of stock over to my buddy's shop and we cut a big chunk from the round vertically. Trying to get this thing squared up was truly a chore. Even with the new mill it took some tricks to set it up.

Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on October 31, 2014, 12:09:21 AM
With the overall dimensions cut to size, leaving a couple of thousands for the eventual need for cleanup or resquaring, the next step was to make a fixture plate to work from. My same friend who cut the slab from the original bar has a nice surface grinder so he flattened up a piece of 1/2" aluminum plate for the job. This plate will serve for the many machining operations yet to come. I put 3 holes in each end of the plate, one a clearance hole for a 5/16 bolt which will go into a T-nut in the angle table. Another a 5/16 threaded hole for a bolt to hold down the block and a third hole that was threaded and counterbored for a locating disc that would fit snugly in the T-slot on the angle  table. Rather than try to hold the part with clamps there are 2 blocks that fit over brass plugs which go into the cam hole at each end. The block is also drilled through for the 5/16 bolt and threaded 1/4-20 for a jack post out on the end.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: b.lindsey on October 31, 2014, 12:16:18 AM
Nice to see you making chips again George...and LOTS of them too!!

Bill
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on October 31, 2014, 12:20:55 AM
The fixture plate also has 2 sets of holes to locate the block, 2- .125 diameter holes in the top surface, which eventually will be milled away and 2- .093 holes on the pan rail which will be covered by the oil pan when assembled. The fixture plate was mounted on my 7x10 angle table and everything was indicated square. The block was mounted and the table tilted to 45 degrees and indicated for a true angle.
Cuts were made until I was close to the layout line then the clamps were removed so I could depth mike down to the brass dowel pins. A finish number was established so the clamps were reset and the final cut taken. While I was cutting the head deck I removed a little stock from the outer side wall.
The whole fixture plate was removed from the angle table, turned 180 and remounted. This was much easier than tilting it 45 degrees back the other way and then having to reindicate the angle.
As with any job cut from solid the chips sure build up quickly.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on October 31, 2014, 12:25:34 AM
Thanks Bill,
Yes I was really getting anxious to start cutting on this engine. It's kind of like painting a picture. When you're staring at the blank sheet of paper you hate to dive in but one you make some marks you just keep going. With this really huge piece of aluminum staring me in the face I didn't know if I really wanted to do this but once the first cuts were made it was like old home week.
I don't think this one will be a fall, winter spring project. I'm sure this one will take me into 2016 with no trouble. Although I might surprise myself.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Don1966 on October 31, 2014, 01:13:23 AM
George I'm glad to see you back making Swarf. You have made some amazing progress and I don't think 2016 will be your completion date, more like 2015. I will be following with great interest.

 :popcorn:
Don
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Roger B on October 31, 2014, 08:53:44 AM
Glad you're back in the workshop  :ThumbsUp: That's a good lump of aluminium. It reminds me of a spoof advert in Mad magazine many years ago. The advert was for a wooden model ship describing all the features and saying that full instructions and tools were included.

What was actually supplied was a block of wood, a knife and a picture of the ship. The instructions were 'cut away everything that does not look like the picture'.

That's what you are doing 'cut away everything that does not look like a flathead V-8 cylinder block'  ;)
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on October 31, 2014, 12:42:40 PM
George, great start to a great project. You mentioned a new mill and from the pic it looks to be the same mill Don and I have; so, how's it working for you? You also mentioned grinding the fixture plate on a surface grinder. Being the un-proud owner of a grinder that didn't work out, but, still looking for the "right one", I'm curious as to what type of wheel do you use to grind aluminum. Since the first brush stroke has been cast, I can't wait to see this one "framed and hung" ;)

Eric
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Mosey on October 31, 2014, 12:58:03 PM
George,
Brilliant, instructive, and amazing  .

I have a pile of chips, also, the similarity stops there.

Steady on!   :smokin2:
On further thought, it occurs to me that the greatest value of George's post is the illustration of his thoughtful planning of the necessary steps to machining the work, and creation of a jig to hold his work to make that possible. That's what I learned.


Mosey
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on October 31, 2014, 02:33:15 PM
Hi Eric,
Here's a write-up I did about the mill, from purchase to use.
gbritnell
http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/showthread.php?t=15713
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on October 31, 2014, 06:26:26 PM
Thanks George, I think ours is the 26" version. Mine doesn't have the  VFD, it's belt adjustable,  I think Don has converted his. Really the belt adjustment is the only thing I've got to bitch about. I also use DROPROS DRO,the only fuss I have is on mine they mix cap and lower case letters and sometimes it is hard to read. Now how about those aluminum su r face grinder wheels?

E




Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on October 31, 2014, 07:52:27 PM
Hi Eric,
I didn't look at the numbers on the wheel when he ground it. I will give him a call and see what it is.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: b.lindsey on October 31, 2014, 09:54:12 PM
I'm with Don, George.. Done and running well before 2016. :)

Bill
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: fumopuc on November 01, 2014, 05:26:45 AM
Hi George, I will following along your build with big interest. As Mosey said, brilliant, instructive and amazing.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: steamer on November 01, 2014, 09:05:24 AM
HEHEHEHE.....yup had a few situations where I needed the shovel too George.

This build is going to be awesome!     :popcorn:


Dave

http://s164.photobucket.com/user/mcandrew1894/media/tooling/2012-12-15_16-55-23_232.jpg.html
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on November 01, 2014, 05:37:40 PM
Here's today's progress. All the holes in the bottom of the block were drilled and reamed as needed, pan bolt holes, main bearing cap holes and oil pump holes. The first step cut was made giving me a reference. I then made up a step-off chart for the sidewall which has a large curve that blends into the 45 degree surface. Using a .375 ball mill and following the chart I worked my way down to the 45 degrees surface. It doesn't seem like much but using the .375 ball mill was slow work. I really didn't want to use a larger one because ball mills really pound on the work, even when sharp.
I still have the far side of the block to do.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on November 01, 2014, 05:40:16 PM
Just a couple of pictures of the shop area while all this is going on. I normally a tidy person but it seems like when you get wrapped up in a project the tools just keep piling up. Usually when I get to a stopping point I vacuum everything up and put the bulk of the tools away so I don't have to search the bench looking for them.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Don1966 on November 01, 2014, 06:45:10 PM
Well that's a relief George. I thought I was the only one who layed tools around. Sometimes I spend 15 minutes looking for a tool I mislayed. I have a bad habit of placing a tool down and not remembering where I put it.  :headscratch: could it have something to do with age?  :old:

 :popcorn:
Don
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Roger B on November 01, 2014, 06:56:19 PM
Tidy is always relative  :) To many your pictures would be tidy  ::)
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on November 03, 2014, 12:43:38 AM
I finished stepping off the far side wall. This time rather than cut the whole thing with a .375 ball mill I made a step-off chart to use a .50 end mill. Boy did that speed things up. Next up was to start roughing out the crankcase cavities. I went in to where the 45 degree wall starts with a .375 ball mill to give myself a witness. This was followed up with a .50 ball mill staying .06 away from all the surfaces. Even at that it took most of the day to get them roughed out.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: b.lindsey on November 03, 2014, 01:34:12 AM
Wow George, that is a lot to get done over the weekend. Makes me feel like I am going backwards at times but your work is always inspiring to be sure.

Bill
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: ogaryd on November 03, 2014, 02:27:36 AM
George, That's beautiful work. Did you cut the main bearings with a ball end mill?                                                                                                                                            Thanks Gary,
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on November 03, 2014, 12:42:03 PM
I roughed the main journals with a ball mill. I made four steps leaving about .020 for boring later on. The caps will have hollow dowels to locate them. They will also be rouged out the same way. The final machining will be on the ends and at that time a rod will be inserted into the cam hole for indicating.
I didn't mention anything about putting the cam hole in. When the block was initially squared up (leaving stock for cleanup) I had set up my angle plate and indicated it true vertically and in the Y axis. The block was set up and clamped to the plate. The block at that time was 7.00 long so the smaller drills had to go from both ends. I first drilled with a .25 drill followed by a 31/64 drill. I then reamed through as far as I could get with a .50 reamer. When I finished going from both ends I found that the the axis that was against the angle plate was within .001 but in the Y direction it was out about .005 so I hand reamed from the deep side until it went all the way through the block. This allowed me to put a rod in and indicate it in both axis for the final drilling and reaming. I apparently had a chip or something under the one end when I put the initial holes through. Once the block was set up for the final drilling and reaming I first went in with a boring bar to give a nice straight pilot for the long 33/64 drill. The final reaming was done with a 17/32 (.531) spiral fluted reamer. The total length of the reamer was 8.00 long so I was able to chuck 1.00 of it and go through all in one step.
The final hole came out perfect albeit unparallel with the one side. A rod was then inserted so that it could be indicated to get the side parallel with the cam axis. Everything finished up within .0015 in the finished length of 6.80.
As anyone has found out, setup is 99.5% of the job. The last .5% is the metal removal.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: metalmad on November 03, 2014, 12:48:39 PM
Hi George
I love the use of a ball mill between the bearings on the Block, NICE.  :praise2: :praise2:
Pete
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on November 04, 2014, 01:39:09 AM
With step-off chart in hand I dove into the crankcase cavities with a .375 ball mill. At .04 per step x 18 steps x 4 cavities it sure took some time working to the numbers but that part of it is out of the way. While it is in this position I drilled the oil holes through the mains and into the main oil galley just above the cam hole.  I just have one more operation to do before flipping the block so I'll finish that up tomorrow.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on November 08, 2014, 06:59:02 PM
With the machining done from the bottom direction the block was removed from the fixture. I have 2 sets of dowel holes for machining, 2 in the top and bottom. The 2 dowels for machining the bottom surfaces were removed and the 2 for the top surfaces were installed. Everything was reindicated and the numbers set in the digital readout for the next step which was cutting some of the end profiles of the block. I only cut down far enough to establish the radii on the corners as the rest will get machined when the block is set on it's ends. The block was once again removed so I could indicate the angle of the table to set up for machining the valve cavities in the top of the block.
This was a much easier job than stepping out all the crankcase cavities. Another nice feature of this new mill is the moveable ram. Not having enough travel in -Y- with the table cocked over at 38.25 degrees I unclamped and moved the ram out so I was within the table travel. I did have to reindicate the head after moving the ram out knowing from my original setup checking that it was possible that the head could be as much as .006 out of tram after moving the ram. The ram is located by a large key and slot but even with .002 clearance at the key will give up to .006 at the spindle. I could make a tighter fitting key but I'm afraid I wouldn't be able to slide the ram in and out.
Here's a few pictures of the latest machining.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Don1966 on November 08, 2014, 08:10:22 PM
That's awesome George. You and Ramon make carving metal look so easy and I love following along. Thanks for sharing it with us.  8)

 :popcorn:
Don
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on November 10, 2014, 12:54:30 AM
The next step in the machining process was to put the valve pockets in the block. The angle I needed was 6.25 degrees past 45 degrees in other words my angle table would have to go to 51.25 degrees but it's only capable of 45 degrees so I had to set up an angle plate on the table and clamp the block to it. Here's a couple of pictures of the setup.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on November 10, 2014, 01:07:12 AM
I picked up the front face with my edge finder, wiggled the scribed centerline and set the numbers in the dro. The first step was to center drill each spot. I went deep enough with the center drill so the drill would have clean hole to start from. I also spotted the surface with an end mill. This is because the surface is tilted at the 6.25 degree angle. There is a shelf underneath the head deck where the valve spring will go so not trusting to drill all the way through to the cam hole I only went to this cavity.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on November 10, 2014, 01:11:09 AM
The next step was to go back into the hole with and extended center drill and drill the lower surface. This was followed by the original drill this time going into the cam bore. The next step was to ream each of the holes to .312 diameter. This was done with a helical fluted reamer to get a nice smooth finish.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on November 10, 2014, 01:16:22 AM
The next step was to open up the upper portion of the valve pocket to .323 diameter. This will allow the valve guide to be pressed into the pocket without having to press it all the way from the top of the head surface. The last 2 pictures show the counterbored pocket for the valve seat and the reamed holes opening into the cam bore.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: fumopuc on November 10, 2014, 07:50:41 PM
Hi Georg, that's amzing. Thanks for sharing all these pictures and the explanations.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Coopertje on November 10, 2014, 08:10:45 PM
Very nice work as usual George  :NotWorthy: You can do manually what I am not able with my 3D CAD / CAM software and CNC machines. Very inspiring to follow along, like a lot the details in your engines. Something different then the square aluminum block engines you usually see….

Thanks for sharing, regards Jeroen
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Roger B on November 10, 2014, 08:23:43 PM
Looking magnificent as ever  :praise2:  :praise2:

I am a little confused by the set up with the angle plate. Did that mean that you could use 45° - 6.25° which works rather than 45° + 6.25° which doesn't work?
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on November 12, 2014, 02:30:04 AM
Hi Roger,
First of all I made a mistake in stating that the angle I needed was 6.25 degrees when actually it was 7 but in the end it's still the same problem. To cut the ports I needed 52 degrees from the vertical and my angle plate would only rotate 45 so by mounting it to the angle plate I could go 45-7, or 38 degrees.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on November 13, 2014, 10:44:09 PM
Try as I might I can't post any message with photos. I have cleared the cache memory and restarted the browser but it's a no go. I don't have this problem on the other sites so I have no idea what to do.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on November 13, 2014, 11:19:06 PM
I guess I'll try photobucket.
Since my last posting I have made quite a bit of progress on the block. All the cylinders have been bored. The manifold holes on the top of the block have been drilled. The block was set up vertically against an angle plate to start machining the ends. The first end is the front end or gear end. I indicated the cam hole as my starting point and from there drilled the holes for the front cover and water pump.
The next process was the nail biter. The front of the block has 2 large holes (.835 dia.) for the water pumps. These holes are drilled all the way through the block to the rear cylinder. This is to tie the eventual water jacket machining together. I started by center drilling, followed by a long .187 drill to make a pilot for the larger drills. The next drill was the .50 dia. drill. This drilled chattered terribly while going from hole to hole because it had to start on the round surface of the cylinders. With only long wood clamps holding the block to the angle plate I cringed when the drill chattered. The following 2 drills, .625 and .750 diameter actually went easier because of the larger pilot hole made by the .50 drill.
When each bank was successfully drilled the front hole was enlarged with a boring bar.
Next up was was the recess for the timing gears. This was a pretty straightforward mill and bore job.
The last machining was the 2 pockets on the lower edge of the block. They aren't needed for anything but are part of the Ford flathead engine so I'm duplicating them. I roughed them to depth with a .25 end mill. This was followed by a lot of stepping with a .125 ball mill. Finally the outer shape of the timing cover area at the top of the block was milled with a .375 ball mill. I was going to wait for another setup to do the angles but really wanted it done and over with while I had it set up in this position so I stepped the angles off.
This will get the build up to date.
gbritnell
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v43/gbritnell/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/IMG_2965_zps088ac299.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/gbritnell/media/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/IMG_2965_zps088ac299.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v43/gbritnell/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/IMG_2968_zpsbc1a22d6.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/gbritnell/media/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/IMG_2968_zpsbc1a22d6.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v43/gbritnell/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/IMG_2975_zpsb004db26.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/gbritnell/media/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/IMG_2975_zpsb004db26.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v43/gbritnell/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/IMG_2977_zps317ad196.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/gbritnell/media/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/IMG_2977_zps317ad196.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v43/gbritnell/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/IMG_2980_zpsd38f9ee8.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/gbritnell/media/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/IMG_2980_zpsd38f9ee8.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Johnmcc69 on November 13, 2014, 11:26:02 PM
Beautiful work!!!

 John
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Don1966 on November 13, 2014, 11:32:28 PM
George that is totally awesome and it's turned into an engine block. Could you put a ruler next to it for size reference? And George I do like................... :praise2: :praise2:

 :popcorn:
Don
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: jschoenly on November 13, 2014, 11:51:02 PM
As a Flathead lover....  That is looking awesome!  The one more common flathead history/building book (lent them out, don't know the author) has a few pictures of fords that guys have changed the ports.  Reminds me of those.  That's going to be a great engine!  Can't wait to keep following this along!
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Dave Otto on November 14, 2014, 12:05:01 AM
Great progress and beautiful work George!

I some times have the same posting troubles that you seem to be having; I usually just wait a while and try it again, eventually it will go through. I have just always blamed the network for this. This is one reason why I use an offline program (MS Word) to compose long posts; that way I can save it and if the site is being a pain I can try later with out the fear of loosing my work.

Dave
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on November 18, 2014, 04:53:27 PM
Here's the latest update on the block progress.
The table was cleaned up and the block was flipped on the angle plate. It was clamped with my usual assortment of Jorgensen clamps and 1 C-clamp. With the narrow top of the block against the angle plate I put a piece of paper between the two for a little more friction as I had some heavy cuts to make.
I picked up the cam hole and set my 0's. The first operation was to bore the pocket for the oil pump idler gear. Next were the drilled holes for the bellhousing bolts.
I printed out the rear view of the engine and cut out the shape to use as a template. These were held in place by dowel pins that corresponded to the boss diameter and the drilled hole diameters. As this operation was to only remove extra stock the template worked fine. After this is finished the block will be set up on the rotary table to spin the radii.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: ColH on January 22, 2015, 12:16:05 AM
Hi George

Any progress on the flathead V8?

Col
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on January 22, 2015, 04:17:53 AM
Hi Col,
Thanks for asking. Actually I have made a lot of progress but as you see from my last posting in early November it just kind of died.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: cfellows on January 22, 2015, 04:49:07 PM
Hi Col,
Thanks for asking. Actually I have made a lot of progress but as you see from my last posting in early November it just kind of died.
gbritnell

So, George, is this because you didn't get much response from members of the forum?  I have noticed that some build threads have huge member responses while others don't seem to generate much interest.  Not sure of the reasons...

Chuck
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Mosey on January 22, 2015, 05:00:30 PM
Still watching!! :praise2:
Mosey
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: b.lindsey on January 22, 2015, 05:08:46 PM
Same for me George...still watching and always impressed with your formidable talents for turning metal blocks into functioning mechanical marvels :)

Bill
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: /// on January 22, 2015, 05:17:27 PM
The number of times the photo's in the last post have been viewed seems to be a fair indication of the interest level ;)
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Jo on January 22, 2015, 05:39:58 PM
Hi Simon,

Would you like to post an introduction to yourself in the introduction section so that the members can get to know you better and the type of engines you are interested in. ;)

Jo
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: fumopuc on January 22, 2015, 08:11:50 PM
Hi Col,
Thanks for asking. Actually I have made a lot of progress but as you see from my last posting in early November it just kind of died.
gbritnell
Hi George, I am still quietly following along , too.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: 90LX_Notch on January 22, 2015, 08:33:35 PM
I am another follower as well.

-Bob
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: rockknocker on January 22, 2015, 09:05:51 PM
George,

Every time I check out the site I'm hoping that you have posted an update! Please don't discontinue the build, thinking that nobody is watching.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on January 22, 2015, 10:36:44 PM
Gentlemen,
I certainly didn't mean to be a jerk about the whole thing but given the date of my last posting and the inquiry by Col I had figured that people had moved on to something else.
That said I will continue with the build.

Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on January 22, 2015, 10:49:48 PM
The next step in the block machining was to undercut all the cylinder bores to create the water jacket area. When building my 300 inline six I just modified a Woodruff key cutter for the job but this block being so much larger I couldn't use the same type of tool so I had to create one. I made up the cutters shown, one for the top underside which required a radius and the other for the remaining part of the cavity. The block was set up on the fixture plate and bolted to the angle milling table. The angle was verified at 45 degrees and everything tightened down.  A positioning chart was drawn up and the tool was inserted into the bores, one by one, and the step cutting started. The previously drilled holes from the front face helped somewhat but the cutting was slow due to some chattering from the wide-faced cutters.

 
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on January 22, 2015, 10:53:15 PM
Here are some pictures of the block to this point.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on January 22, 2015, 11:01:35 PM
To complete the major machining on the block the bearing caps needed to be made, bolted on and the whole thing bored. The bearing caps don't follow normal automotive practice of recessing the block to locate the caps laterally. For more accuracy in both directions I used hollow dowels. The caps were machined and the dowels set in place, light press, and they were bolted to each other in pairs. With the accuracy of the dowels to the outside of the caps when set up I could drill and bore then in pairs. I left about .030 stock on the diameters for finishing.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on January 22, 2015, 11:17:21 PM
The next step would be very critical, boring the crank holes and keeping everything in line. I set the angle plate back up and indicated it square and plumb. The block, mounted to the fixture plate was clamped and indicated to the angle plate. As with some of my other setups this required a little ingenuity. Where's a horizontal mill when you need one?
Indicating from my camshaft hole I set 0's and then moved to the center of the crank hole. I mounted the longest boring bar I had into the boring head and commenced boring the mains. From the front end I could only get the first three so when they were finished the block was rotated on the fixture plate and the rear two were bored. The fixture plate has small dowel pins installed that match the holes in the top of the block so flipping the block on the dowels should have gotten me where I wanted to be. When I got through I set the block on my layout plate and using the cam hole as my gauge point I checked the location of the main bores. The first three were dead on in both directions while the rear were accurate top to bottom but out .002 side to side. I then went through the whole boring process again starting from the front then flipping the block and doing the rear. When I got to the rear I shifted my position by .002 and finished the bores.
The block then went back to layout and this time the front 3 were still spot on and the rear two were within .0005 so I can live with that.
An accumulation of dimensions starting from the angle plate setup, flipping the block etc can only get so close.
The final photo is just a comparison of the block to a well known tool to give a size relationship.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on January 22, 2015, 11:28:02 PM
The next pieces in the build are the heads. These like the block would require a fixture plate and multiple setups to machine. The tricky part about making the heads is that they are made in two pieces. This is to form the internal water jacket. The parting dimensions would have to be dead on because this is the only way to seal the perimeter of the head.
The upper part of the head would have the fins on one side and a cavity in the other side. The lower part of the head would have all of the bosses machined onto it. These would provide stock around all the head bolts and spark plugs. The back side of the lowers would have the combustion chambers.
The blanks were all machined to size and all the holes put in. The head bolts are 5-40 so all of the holes were drilled for clearance except the end two which were reamed .125 for the locating dowels to be used with the fixture plate.
The second photo shows the inside of the lower plate and the material left for creating the bosses.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on January 22, 2015, 11:29:56 PM
Further machining on the lower plates shows the development of the internal bosses.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on January 22, 2015, 11:36:29 PM
The back side of the lower plates has the combustion chambers. These were first roughed with progressively larger end mills to form the main cylindrical shape of the chambers. This was followed with a boring bar with a radius on it for the final cut. The next cuts were to rough the valve pockets. These would be finished later on.
The final cuts in the combustion chambers was with a ball nosed mill. The roof of the chamber is at an angle so using the previously machined diameter as a witness the angled surface was stepped off.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on January 22, 2015, 11:38:38 PM
This is what they look like after burring, filing and polishing. The area around the valve pockets looks rough because as I mentioned further machining would need to be done to finish them.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on January 22, 2015, 11:43:03 PM
The next step in the operation would be to cut the fins on the outside of the upper halves. This would need to be done before the cavity work so that they could be mounted squarely to the fixture plate.
Using a slitting saw and a lot of patience all of the fins were cut on both blanks.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on January 22, 2015, 11:48:05 PM
The uppers were then flipped over and the cavities cut out. The second photo shows the development of the angled parting surfaces. It wasn't until if finished them up that I realized I could have achieved what I needed for the perimeter shape without having to cut and match the intricate angles. They came out ok so everything is fine. I did go back and change the drawing in case anyone in the future would like to have a go at this engine.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on January 22, 2015, 11:53:23 PM
The final machining on the combustion chambers was to set the head up on the required angle and using a cutter with a radius on the corner go in and spot each of the valve pockets. While the heads were at this angle I went in with another cutter to finish the angled wall that connects the valve pocket to the combustion chamber.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on January 22, 2015, 11:57:43 PM
On the top front corner of each piece extra stock was left to create the water outlet. The two pieces of the head were bolted together using the fixture plate and the angled outer wall was cut along with the outlet hole and threaded mounting holes.
In the second photo you can see the parting line between the two halves.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on January 23, 2015, 12:00:36 AM
Here's some pictures of the finished heads sitting on top of the block.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: b.lindsey on January 23, 2015, 01:00:02 AM
Wow George...that is a lot of work since November. Thanks so much for posting the work that has been going on. You have a LOT of fans here :)

Bill
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Don1966 on January 23, 2015, 01:05:21 AM
Wow George...that is a lot of work since November. Thanks so much for posting the work that has been going on. You have a LOT of fans here :)

Bill
Yep! And I am one of your biggest fan. That is just awesome George. We need to get a "sculpture of the year award". To see you carve that out of a chunk of metal is under believeable. Your still my hero!  :praise2: :praise2: :praise2:

Don
Title: Flathead V-8
Post by: ths on January 23, 2015, 01:14:20 AM
George, it's hard to be able to comment rationally on your work beyond "great work" or some such platitude. And who am I to pass judgement? I've always watched what you've been making, it's so educational and at such a high level. Glad to see it back. Cheers, Hugh.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gldavison on January 23, 2015, 01:20:46 AM
I to check every day to see what progress you have made. Can not find any words to better the comments all ready made. I am looking forward to seeing this at NAMES this spring.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: petertha on January 23, 2015, 01:39:10 AM
Beautiful work George. Unless I missed it, I haven't seen the cylinder liners yet. Are they to come? I'm interested in your preferred procedure/past experience in that regard. Do you make all block bores the same ID with same boring tool setup & then machine up the liner OD to suite that dimension? Can you speak to the forthcoming liner fit (snug push & removable vs. dry press-in vs. locktite vs ..). And then what about any final liner ID finishing/honing? Do you prefer to save that step with liner in block, or ok to finish it beforehand & no distortion issues?. Did I already mention beautiful work? :)
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on January 23, 2015, 02:38:26 AM
Thanks fellows,
It makes it all worthwhile.
Peter,
I bore the block in 2 different diameters, one for the bottom and one for the top. The bottom is .010 smaller. I shoot for the same dimension on both banks but being as I have to change my setup to do both sometimes the size can vary a little. It's always easier to make the liners fit the bores and not the other way around.
When I make the liners I try to make them about .0015 larger than the block bores. With the top diameter being larger it means I don't have to press the liner all the way down. I have about .200 of engagement on this engine because it's larger. When I get ready to press I put a light coat of Loctite on the liners. As far as the inner bore I make it about .001 undersize and leave the rest for honing after the liners are pressed in. Here again it depends on the size of the engine and thickness of the liners. Usually with a .0015 press you don't get much collapsing of the liner wall.
I then hone all the liners in place. The plan is to make them all the same size and then make the rings and pistons to fit. I make all of my own rings so if I'm +- on the nominal dimension it doesn't matter.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on January 23, 2015, 02:48:38 AM
Next up was the bellhousing. This is another one of those parts that ends up with less metal on the part than what's vacuumed up off the floor.
I found it best to start with a piece of round stock for this part. I know the bellhousing is round but with the starter bulge it added to the overall diameter of the stock.
I first turned the part to the proper height in the 3 jaw chuck. I then mounted the 4 jaw chuck. The part was given center lines and then punched so I could use my wiggler to true it up in the 4 jaw.
By that I mean I put the wiggler into the punch mark and with a DTI sitting against it I adjust the part until the shaft of the wiggler runs true.
I first drilled a series of through holes and finished with a boring bar.
The next step was to rough bore successive cuts to remove the heavy stock prior to mounting on the rotary table on the mill. Once on the mill I made a step-down chart so that I could cut the inner radius with a .50 ball nosed mill.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on January 23, 2015, 02:52:12 AM
With the spherical shape stepped off I went in with different sized end mills to cut the inside shapes around the transmission mounting flange and clutch area.
I also drilled all the mounting holes on the flange. The ones marked in red were tapped so that the part could go on a fixture plate for all the detail machining.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on January 23, 2015, 02:59:41 AM
The same fixture plate that I used for the block was redrilled for the bellhousing. The part was turned over and mounted to the plate which was then centered up on the rotary table.
Although I work to my drawing dimensions I always like to give myself some guide lines just to keep my head clear.
The bellhousing has 2 ribs that go from the transmission flange up to the mounting flange. These are radial in shape. To machine them I first made a step-off chart for the radius over the ribs. Using the rotary table and stepping out and down I cut a first pass all around the housing.
The straight cuts were machined as witnesses leaving about .02 stock. While cutting the spherical shape I would use paper to bump the straight walls. This got me close to where I wanted to be.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on January 23, 2015, 03:08:02 AM
The part was then removed from the rotary table and the area where the ribs would be was filed smooth. I then put marker ink in that area and laid out the ribs on the smooth surface. The part was again put on the rotary table and centered up. At this point all the straight cuts were cut to size because I had a good gauge from the first conical cuts to judge my tangent points. Now all the radial cut were done a second time, this time to the new radius and with smaller steps. As I would come into a corner I would paper to the straight wall, back away, rotate the table parallel with the straight cut and then bump into the radial cut to clean up the corner. Very time consuming but it saves a tremendous amount of hand filing later on.  Each step down on the radial cut meant a different stopping point on the ribs I was forming. With a bright light I would sneak up to the line with each cut.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on January 23, 2015, 03:11:01 AM
Once all the stepping and blending was done I reduced the fillet where the sphere met the mounting flange. I then made up witness buttons to put on the mounting holes. I used them to do the outer diameter of the mounting flange.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on January 23, 2015, 03:17:05 AM
The part was then removed from the rotary table, the rotary table was removed, the vise set up again for the umteenth time and the clutch lever window was milled.
The starter projection has a circular boss on it which was turned on the lathe and pressed and screwed in place. This was easier than doing on the rotary table.
All that remains is to file and polish the housing but it will wait until I get all the main pieces done so I don't have to take the tools out repeatedly.
The pictures show the bellhousing mounted on the back of the block.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: ColH on January 23, 2015, 03:23:19 AM
Thanks George

I appreciate you continuing the build. 
The reason for my question on progress with the build is that I try to visit the site everyday to see the progress with your build as well as the others and while I appreciate that other things in life get in the way, it had been a long time since you had posts on the build.  It is obvious from todays posts that you have been far from idle.

I have followed your last few builds and I am in awe with your work. I have learned much from your techniques, in particular the forethought that goes into the setups to ensure future operations are do-able or made simpler.  I, one day, hope to attempt a V8 (I love your flat head) and if I could just get it running I would be happy, let alone, to the quality of your builds.

I will attempt to comment, or ask questions about you build in the future, to ensure there is interest shown. This goes for all posters on the site - there is some amazing work being done.

Col

 
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Art K on January 23, 2015, 03:45:31 AM
George,
Thanks for continuing, I appreciate the detail that you put into the build and writeup. awesome ! I'm still plugging away on my shop addition done sanding drywall ready to paint soon. This work has put a crimp in making chips.
Art
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: fumopuc on January 23, 2015, 05:02:37 AM
Hi George, thank you very much for continuing the documentation of your build. It is an extraordinary craftsmanship. I know, it takes some time to make pictures, prepare them for a download and to write something, what seems to be conclusive for yourself. I apprecheate it very much if I have the chance to see how you get a part out of a piece of metal.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: vcutajar on January 23, 2015, 05:09:48 AM
Thanks George for the update.  I always follow your builds.

Vince
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: metalmad on January 23, 2015, 05:25:28 AM
Hi George
Absolutely Awesome  :praise2: :praise2:
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Roger B on January 23, 2015, 07:39:30 AM
Thank you for continuing to post  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp: . I find the way you generate the shapes by hand fascinating  :praise2:  :praise2:

How are you going to join/seal the top and bottom of the cylinder heads?
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: crankshafter on January 23, 2015, 10:32:08 AM
George.
Absolutly amazing :NotWorthy: :praise2:. keep it coming, we are out here waitin ;) ;D
CS
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Coopertje on January 23, 2015, 11:57:24 AM
Outstanding work George! Please keep continuing your work of art here, its a great inspiration to me and I am sure to many of us here!

Thanks for efforts and time, regards Jeroen
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on January 23, 2015, 12:50:33 PM
Hi Roger,
The joint is so tight that I think when the head bolts pull it down it won't leak. If it does I will put a very thing layer of a non-hardening sealer on it. I have used this sealer for years while working on motorcycle engines. It's light gray in color and will squeeze out to a very thin layer when clamped.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on January 23, 2015, 01:09:45 PM
The next part was the front timing cover. This also incorporates a cylindrical tube for the distributor.
I started out by squaring up a piece of aluminum. It was then put in the lathe to cut the recess in the rear. From the lathe it was back to the mill to drill and ream the inside of the distributor tube. As with most of the parts a fixture plate was created for the remaining machining.
The mounting holes were tapped rather than clearance drilled. This would allow the part to be mounted to the fixture plate.
The rotary table was set up and indicated and the part was mounted, indicated and clamped.
I made a step-off chart to create the circular outer shape of the tube and started milling with a ball nosed mill.

You will notice in the picture that there is a knurled ring at the top of the end mill. In most cases I don't like working with collets for several reasons so I use regular R-8 holders. I don't know about you but I have found that the shank diameters of end mills can vary by almost .0005. It doesn't sound like much but when you tighten the end mill with a set screw it can throw it off center thereby altering the cut dimension. I generally leave a .50 R-8 holder in the spindle. I have then made 3 different sized sleeves, one .3754, one .375 and one .3747. This allows me to slip them in and out of the .50 holder and accommodate the different shank sizes.

Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on January 23, 2015, 01:11:23 PM
Now using the rotary table I started cutting the outside shape of the cover.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on January 23, 2015, 01:17:08 PM
I presume the original part was a die cast piece and had stiffening ribs added to it so I'm trying to replicate the cover as closely as possible. The main hub in the center has a large radius on the corner to follow the inner shape and the ribs are tangent to the curved surface and splay out to the outer edges of the cover. To machine these I first roughed the radius, staying away from the ribs and then went back and qualified the thickness of each rib. From there I had a surface to work to much like doing the bellhousing so I could then recut the radial shape and bump up against each rib.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on January 23, 2015, 01:23:00 PM
With all the shapes cut from the main centerline the part was shifted to the crankshaft hole. The outside shape of the boss was stepped conically and blended into the base of the cover.
The front cover and oil pan will have an O ring seal and for cutting that diameter I needed to make my own cutter. This is the usual drill rod, machined, hardened and honed tool. The cutter was made to the exact size needed so all I had to do was move in to the centerline and the cut was finished.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on January 23, 2015, 01:25:47 PM
Once again the rotary table was removed and the vise set up. The part was put in the vise with a rod sticking out of the distributor boss. This was used to indicate the part vertical. The hole was then indicated true and using a boring bar turning backwards I cleaned up the outside shape of the boss taking it down till it touched the outer flange of the cover.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on January 23, 2015, 01:27:04 PM
The final three pictures show the cover mounted on the front of the block.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gary hart on January 23, 2015, 02:19:14 PM
Wow!  and double Wow!!
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: jschoenly on January 23, 2015, 02:31:05 PM
Just Awesome!  Keep up the great work.  Love those Flatties!
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on January 23, 2015, 04:38:09 PM
The oil pan, similar to the bellhousing ended up with more chips in the pan than material left on the part. There were no real complex shapes on this piece, not like the bellhousing or timing cover but it still required multiple operations to complete it.

I started with a large rectangular bar of aluminum. This was cut to size, squared and faced leaving my usual .02 per face for cleanup. With the whole inside needing to be hollowed out there was no real easy way given the size and rigidness of my mill so I started out by drilling out as much stock as possible. I started with a pilot drill and increased up to .75 diameter. There are 3 levels in the pan so the depth of the drills was such that I left a good safety margin in the bottom. $46.00 plus $14.00 shipping isn't something you want to do too many times.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on January 23, 2015, 04:42:43 PM
The next step was to go in with a .50 ball mill and start removing the remaining stock. Once I had the bulk of the material removed I then went around the inside perimeter to set a qualifying dimension.
The pan rail mounting holes were drilled and some tapped for mounting to the fixture plate.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on January 23, 2015, 04:49:32 PM
From this point some of the cuts would have to be made more than once due to the fact that it would take way too long to calculate each tangent point. The most complex area is around the front of the pan. You have the main side walls which would end up as 2 degrees, the angular walls which tape towards the front and the bottom angular surface which goes from the first depth up to the front seal area.
I started by making a step-off chart and with the inside flange thickness established I stepped down to the front level. I also stepped the large radii on the inside corners.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on January 23, 2015, 04:51:02 PM
The next area to be roughed out was the cavity around where the oil pump would go.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on January 23, 2015, 04:56:59 PM
With all the surfaces cut relatively close I tilted the mill head on 2 degrees. I don't often do this as I usually work from my angle table but the pan was too long to fit the angle table so the mill vise was set up longwise (parallel to X) the part clamped and the side walls cut. I marked all the corner fillets with a permanent ink marker so as I was cutting the 2 degree walls I could see when I was at the tangent point.
You can see in this picture that orientation of the vise and part to finish cut the 2 degree walls.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on January 23, 2015, 05:04:50 PM
With the inside machining complete it was time to tackle the outside. I started one area at a time so I would have something to clamp to. The walls of the pan are still quite thick because the flange depth hasn't been cut so it gave me good support for clamping.
The front of the pan was given a layout line and the stock was removed with the bandsaw, leaving a good safety margin. At this point it's no longer the cost of the material but the hours of time invested should there be a screw up.
The part was then clamped to my angle plate and the surface milled to the proper dimension. I use a piece of paper between the angle plate and the part to give more friction when clamping. I learned long ago that two smooth surfaces sometimes don't hold well.
I left a good amount of stock around the conical boss at the front not knowing exactly where it would touch the angled surface.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on January 23, 2015, 05:15:49 PM
The angle plate was then removed and the rotary table set up. I have this ground 4.00 x 4.00 x 6.00 gauge block which serves as a very nice angle plate. I can put a long stud through the center to mount it. If I try to use and angle plate there's so much hanging over the rotary table it's hard to clamp and rotate.
The part was then mounted and centered so that the conical shape could be stepped down. You can see how much stock was left from the previous operation but it can always be taken off but it's really hard to put it back on!
The front of the pan was complete so it was turned 180 and the rear area was done. This included the flange around the rear seal and stepping around the oil pump bulge.
With both ends finished the remaining material was sawed from the other step on the bottom and it was milled to size. The part was then set up in the vise so each of the side walls could be cut. I first cut the part to the proper depth on both sides then the pan was mounted on the fixture plate so that the walls could be finished at 2 degrees to match the inside cavity.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on January 23, 2015, 05:22:54 PM
Each end was then machined for the O ring seal grooves using the previously made cutters.
I have radiusing cutters which I used to knock the corners off but on the lower steps I could only get in so close due to the large diameter of the cutter. From there it was a lot of filing and grinding to remove the remaining stock. The outer radii are mainly .25 except for around the oil pump bulge so there was a lot of stock to remove.
The pan was then filed and polished to remove the remaining tool marks. Somewhere down the road I might finish out the inside but for now with the great amount of work yet to do they'll just have to stay.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: kuhncw on January 23, 2015, 06:15:13 PM
George, thanks for bringing the thread up to date.  Beautiful work and a very educational thread.

Chuck
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Roger B on January 23, 2015, 06:44:43 PM
Once again thank you for continuing to post this build  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp: There are so many good and interesting things being posted on this forum it can be difficult to keep up with them all, but I try to follow even if I don't respond all the time (when I am in China posting can be difficult MEM must be regarded as dodgy  ;)  )
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: petertha on January 23, 2015, 07:27:08 PM
I generally leave a .50 R-8 holder in the spindle. I have then made 3 different sized sleeves, one .3754, one .375 and one .3747. This allows me to slip them in and out of the .50 holder and accommodate the different shank sizes.

Now that is a really good tip. And probably net faster changing out end mills too. I was just mulling this issue on some metric end mills only offered in metric shanks vs. my Imperial R8 tooling & not feeling great about collets or buying dedicated tooling for low use.

Dumb question but do your sleeves have an open side window for the same R8 set screw to engage on the end mill flat, or what prevents the end mill from spinning inside the sleeve?
What did you make the sleeves out of & any post-hardening?
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on January 23, 2015, 07:57:59 PM
Hi Peter,
Yes the sleeves have an open window that the set screw goes through. When using and end mill I just tighten the set screw against the shank of the end mill and have never had one come loose. That's not to say with a very heavy cuts it couldn't move but how heavy of a cut would be made with .375 shanked end mills? .375 shanked cutters are the only ones I do this with because I use so many of them. My drill chuck has a .50 shank and it makes it easier to go back and forth without having to change holders.
I just make them from mild steel. 12L14 to be exact. I think I have one made from 1144. I turn, drill and bore all in one setup so everything is concentric. The knurl is to make it easier to grab and pull out.
I don't have any way of grinding the I.D's so hardening isn't an option although if one wears it's only a 15 minute job to make another.
gbritnell
P.S. When I worked in the pattern shop we would sometimes have ball nose cutters come loose when mounted in a collet but that was mostly from the vibration of the cutting action of that particular type of cutter. 
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: 90LX_Notch on January 24, 2015, 03:57:55 AM
Amazing as usual George.  Thanks for the update.

-Bob
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: fumopuc on January 24, 2015, 05:19:04 AM
Hi George, thanks for this very detailed update. I will need some time and rest to study and understand. It is very instructional, but even to understand how instructional it is I have to read it several times.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: steamer on January 24, 2015, 11:43:45 AM
Fine piece of machining there George....and a great lesson to us!

Thanks for taking us along friend!

Dave
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on January 24, 2015, 12:08:17 PM
A true Master Manipulator of Metal Removing Machinery. Just awesome George

Eric
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: kvom on January 24, 2015, 12:39:06 PM
The front timing cover would be a tricky part even with a 5-axis CNC mill!  Very impressive.   :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: sshire on January 24, 2015, 12:45:14 PM
Thanks. George. Again, I learned a great deal from your posts. Beautiful.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on January 24, 2015, 01:25:10 PM
Thanks for following along gents.

When I built the 302 back in the late 80's I estimated my time at around 2500 hours in the course of 3 years time. I'm sure this one will approach those hours but the time taken to complete it should be almost half due to the fact that back then I was working every day and now have the luxury of retirement to give me more shop time.

The next casting look-alike part or parts are the water pumps. On a flathead engine there are two, one on each front side of the block. Much like the heads they had to be made in two pieces to create and internal water passage. I drew up a couple of different designs and finalized on this one. It has a main body piece with a rear plate but it's not just a simple bolt on cover. These water pumps have a projection from the side which is the flange for the motor mount. To provide enough strength for this area the angular rib would be made all on the main body and this would create a step on the backside that the cover would have to match in profile.

Let's get started. The first part would be the rear cover plate. A piece of stock was milled to size and the main water outlet hole was bored. All of the mounting and assembly holes were either drilled or tapped. The rotary table was then set up and the part mounted on it's fixture plate was centered up and clamped down. This process was used because the piece was too thin to try to hold and cut to thickness on the lathe. The outer diameter of the outlet flange was created and then all the angular shapes were created.

Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on January 24, 2015, 01:33:56 PM
The two pieces for the main body were then milled to size and all the holes put into them, impeller shaft, water inlet and the mounting holes drilled and tapped. The cavities would need to be cut next because there would be no way to hold the part if the outside was done first. I gave myself a sketch on the pieces just to keep the symmetrical opposites straight in my mind.
With the blocks centered on the impeller shaft hole, which is my -0- datum point, I cut the cavities using a .187 end mill with a small radius on the corners. I stepped around the 2 internal bosses that would be used for bolting the cover plate to. You will notice in the third picture the projected motor mount rib sitting proud from the main surface.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on January 24, 2015, 01:45:31 PM
To use the previously created fixture plate to machine the main bodies I had to go back and cut away the area where the rib sticks down. The bodies were then turned over and mounted to the fixture plate. I first relieved as much of the stock as I could prior to the next step which was mounting the part in the 4 jaw chuck to both turn the tapered neck and bore for the ball bearings. To get the part squared and concentric in the lathe I first got the jaws close to where the part was centered and then using a couple of parallels against the face of the chuck inserted and clamped the fixture plate. Then using a dti. I adjusted the jaws until the impeller hole was running true. I then put the dti. against the face of the part and found it to be out a couple of thousands so my method of correcting this is to use a drift key (tapered wedge) and tap it between  the fixture plate and the face of the chuck. This way I can go around to each of the jaws and make minute adjustments until the part is parallel with the chuck.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on January 24, 2015, 01:46:59 PM
Here's where we're at so far.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on January 24, 2015, 01:50:20 PM
The part was now moved back to the rotary table and centered up on the water inlet. The O.D. of the inlet was then spun to size going down to the rib that supports the motor mount flange.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on January 24, 2015, 01:54:12 PM
The part was then unclamped and moved to the center of the impeller shaft hole. The part was indicated true and clamped down. One edge was then indicated and the rotary table zeroed on the closest whole number. This would be my -0- angle for all the steps and shapes to be cut from.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on January 24, 2015, 02:02:55 PM
All of the shape and angles were milled using several .187 diameter end mills, a new one for doing the outer profile and another with a radius on the corners for doing all the rib and flange corners.
The final machining step was to mount the part in the mill vise and with the fixture plate tilted to the proper angle cut the shape on the support rib. Everything went well with the first part but on the second one I ended up with a tiny nick where the rib meets the pump face. Oh well! With 2 machines, 12 setups and countless cuts one small nick is the least I could hope for.
The next step was to make up 8, 2-56 flathead screws to secure the cover plate to the pump body. The two parts were screwed together so that the outer profiles could be matched. Everything was then filed and polished.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on January 24, 2015, 02:04:38 PM
The final pictures of these parts show them mounted on the front of the block.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Don1966 on January 24, 2015, 02:40:45 PM
 8).


Don
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: b.lindsey on January 24, 2015, 02:50:03 PM
George, a few pages back when you started updating this build again I had said what an amazing amount of work you had done since November. Now 3-4 pages later I can only say what an understatement that was :).

Beautiful work as always and thanks so much for bringing us all up to date on this lovely engine...or are we up to the present yet ?

Bill
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on January 24, 2015, 03:24:07 PM
Hi Bill,
Yes we're up to date. The next part will be the intake manifold. The original plan was to make it from brass. The reason being it would need the runners milled out and then a cover soldered over them. My thought was to paint this engine so the fact that the intake was brass wouldn't matter because it would be painted. The more I thought about it the more I thought that I would like to try and make it from aluminum. One option was to make patterns and and a corebox  and have it cast. I have been talking with Maury from Lone Star about getting it cast. The next option would be to cut a block of aluminum and just machine the runners in it, then make the cover plate and take it to the local weld shop. They do some very nice TIG welding on aluminum but given the small size of the manifold I don't know what the outcome would be. I would hate to do that much work only to find out that the welding eroded too much stock.
The third option is to make a test block of 1/2 of the manifold, cut the runners and make the cover plate. Now to weld/braze/solder the 2 pieces together? I'm sure a lot of fellows in this hobby and just as fabricators are aware of the salesmen that set up at the trade shows, fairs etc. and put on the demonstrations of using the aluminum soldering sticks with a propane torch. The first time I saw it demonstrated was at a motorcycle expo. As I was walking by I glanced at the display which told the demonstrator that I might be interested so he called me over for a demonstration. The first thing he soldered was an aluminum soda can. He poked a hole in the bottom of the can then wire brushed the area with a stainless steel brush. He then played the heat of the torch onto the can all the while rubbing the stick onto the area. Just at the peak moment of ideal temperature the soldering rod whetted the aluminum can and he proceeded to lay a puddle of metal over the hole. He then said give it a try, so I did. I wasn't quite as proficient as he but it did work. The trick to the whole thing is obtaining the ideal temperature to where the stick will tin the material and try to maintain that temperature. Too hot and you erode the base material, too cold and nothing happens.
I bought a couple of rods from the salesman and over the years I think I only used it once or twice but it did work so I think this might be a viable option.
I'll let you know.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: sbwhart on January 24, 2015, 04:18:13 PM
Hi George

The engine is coming along great.

look forward with interest to see how the aluminium soldering works out I've also seen it demonstrated at shows, but came away thinking they were making it look far too simple.

Keep the post coming

Stew
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: ironman123 on January 24, 2015, 04:30:01 PM
George, the flathead v8 is my all time favorite engine.  So pleased you are doing this on MEM.  Your skill and knowledge on these builds you do never ceases to amaze me.  Thank you.  Can hartdly wait for the flathead v8 miniature sound.  Keep up this fantastic build.  :popcorn: :popcorn:
Ray
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Roger B on January 24, 2015, 06:41:51 PM
I will be following your aluminium soldering  :ThumbsUp:  I like aluminium for the easy machining properties, but I don't have any way of 'solidly' joining it. I can weld steel (but not very well  ::) ) I can solder or braze copper/ brass/ bronze but unless I get deeply into TIG I can't really join aluminium. This soldering technique may be a solution  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Don1966 on January 24, 2015, 09:33:21 PM
Hi George, I have done some aluimunin soldering and have the rods. The problems I had with it was that the work has to be very clean. You have to brush the surface with a stainless steel brush and use it only on the aluimunin. Also keep the flame away from the area your heating to solder. It does give a good bond when done correctly. It has a lower melting point and not as hard. I have never used it for anything requiring any strength so can't comment on that. I will be watching to see have yours turn out.

Regards Don
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: b.lindsey on January 25, 2015, 01:17:37 AM
I have seen the demos as well and think that might well be an option George. Certainly worth a try. Might be a little trickier on something thicker than a soda can, but you could experiment with some scrap stock approximately the same size. Keep us posted.

Bill
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Dave Otto on January 25, 2015, 01:27:18 AM
Maybe something like this would work.

http://www.harrisproductsgroup.com/en/Products/Alloys/Soldering/Lead-Free-Solders/Al-Solder-500.aspx

Dave
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: ozzie46 on January 25, 2015, 01:54:53 PM
Awesome Awesome build George  :pinkelephant: :pinkelephant: :pinkelephant:

On the Aluminum soldering thing, I soldered up an exhaust deflector( couldn't really call it a muffler) for an rc aircraft engine several years back with that rod and the way I did it was to tin both pieces then soldered them together. The deflector survived a couple of crashes, in fact I still have it.

 Ron
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: tvoght on January 25, 2015, 07:18:32 PM
I'm all caught up now. Really glad to see the updates.

--Tim
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on January 25, 2015, 09:35:48 PM
Hi Dave,
I saw a demo of the product you posted the link to on Youtube. Out of all the videos I saw and information I've read I think the Harris solder would be the best for something like this manifold. With the flux being used as a temperature gauge it should make it much easier to use. I found a supplier on Ebay so I ordered the kit, solder, flux etc. I'll keep you updated on how it works out.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Dave Otto on January 26, 2015, 01:18:14 AM
Great; I will be curious to find out how it works.

 I use the Harris Stay-Clean flux paste with the stay brite solder and it works much the same way. when it turns a nice dark caramel color the temperature is just right for the stay brite solder to flow.

Dave
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Brendon M on January 27, 2015, 06:44:20 AM
Gentlemen,
I certainly didn't mean to be a jerk about the whole thing but given the date of my last posting and the inquiry by Col I had figured that people had moved on to something else.
That said I will continue with the build.

Hello George, I only try to post when I have a question to ask. This helps to stop me from sounding like a broken record :) you tend to layout your posts in an easy to follow fashion so I usually do not have any questions

That said, the work you are doing is fantastic  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: rockknocker on January 27, 2015, 09:48:31 PM
This is some amazing work!

I notice that the tooling marks haven't been ground off up on sections of the block and other parts. Are you holding off until the end to minimize the need for re-working the part (due to scuffing and scratches), or do you anticipate having to machine the block further?
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Don1966 on January 27, 2015, 10:04:50 PM
Dam George now you got me druling. I can't seem to close my mouth just seeing this engine coming to life.    :praise2:

 :popcorn:
Don
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on January 27, 2015, 10:14:06 PM
Hi Rockknocker,
You're right, the tooling marks are still there as on the bellhousing. My plan was to do all the hand work at one time and smooth everything out but parts like the oil pan and water pumps just needed to be done right away. The heads will need radii on the corners of all the fins which will take some time but I think it will give it a more finished look.
Once all the major parts are finished I'll go back and start making the crank, rod, cam etc.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on January 30, 2015, 01:43:33 AM
The intake manifold is progressing well.
As with all these parts cut from solid I start from the inside. That means cutting the port runners. On this engine I decided on using 2 carbs, first of all for the aesthetics and second to shorten the length of travel for the intake charge. Each carb will feed 4 cylinders.
I squared up the block in the vise and then switched over to the angle table to put the ports in. The angle at the ends will match the entry angle into the block. I gave myself some layout lines but verified them with the edge finder. The dimensions were set and the table was tilted to the proper angle. I first went down with an end mill to establish a flat at the layout line. From here I could touch of the ball nosed mill and plunge down to the proper depth.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on January 30, 2015, 01:50:42 AM
The angle table was removed and the vise set back up. The block was mounted and the edges once again picked up. Zeros were set and the runners were milled. At this point I also put the mounting holes in.
Once the runners were finished I turned the block 90 degrees and cut the area out between the runners.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on January 30, 2015, 02:10:45 AM
This manifold will resemble a dual plane type. For those not familiar with this engine terminology I will explain.

When engines only had 4 cylinders to feed the intake manifolds weren't that long so getting the proper mixture to all cylinders wasn't too difficult but as cylinder counts and engine configurations changed some of the cylinders were starved for fuel. It was first hard enough to get the charge out to the enc cylinders but also with the intake cycles of different cylinders the charge would have to travel in one direction then immediately reverse to feed a different cylinder. To alleviate this problem, at leas on V-8 engines the dual plane manifold was designed. With 2 and 4 barrel carburetors one side of the carb feeds only 4 cylinders, 2 close on one bank and 2 out on the ends on the other bank. This made the distribution more even so each cylinder in the engine would run the same as another, or close. There are single plane manifolds for high performance use. This consists of a single plenum (chamber) that all the cylinders feed from This is used for higher rpm's where the velocities could be maintained for adequate fuel distribution.

I started cutting the area around which will eventually form the carb bases. From there the different levels and runners were shaped. Once again a tooling change was required so the vise came off and the angle table went back up.
Actually I do have room on the mill table for both but I don't have room to tighten the hold down nuts on the angle table because they are recessed under the table and I can't get a wrench on them.
The angle was set for the outer ends. This would match the inside port runner. Each side was set up and cut.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on January 30, 2015, 02:19:59 AM
On the front of the flathead manifold there is a projection on the casting to mount the generator. On the back of this bracket is a tapped boss that the generator bracket is bolted to and two angled supporting ribs. Close to this bracket is also the hollow boss that the breather tube goes into. Due to the tight constraints of milling in this area I couldn't get any good pictures. The manifold was set at one angle then another, walls stepped off and radii developed. Once they were all cut close I had to go back and recut each area to the finished dimension.
There's still along way to go but at least it's looking like an intake manifold.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Don1966 on January 30, 2015, 02:32:53 AM
George I just have one question and I have to ask. Do you have an engine you take apart to get all the details from? The manifold looks great and I just know your going to round off a lot of those corners aren't you?

Don
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: petertha on January 30, 2015, 02:37:03 AM
George, maybe I missed it but what aluminum alloy is the manifold? Do you find it stays dimensionally stable with all the intricate cross cuts & deep hogging? Have you found one aluminum better than another for parts like these?
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on January 30, 2015, 03:36:30 AM
Hi Don,
With most of my engines I just go from pictures and then develop my drawings. On this particular engine I started with pictures of a Ford flathead engine. As I was doing all my layouts in Autocad and realized I couldn't make an actual Ford flathead I started moving details and adjusting dimensions to suit the new design. Other than the T-5 transmission and the 9" Ford differential all of my projects come from my own knowledge of engines and my background as a metal patternmaker and designer. I start with a basic size and make everything fit within those parameters.
And yes all the corners will be radiused. It should look just like a casting when finished.
Hi Peter,
I generally use 6061 T-6 aluminum for non stressed components like the main structural pieces. It's fairly easy to machine, is weldable, if necessary, and the cost is reasonable. If I make something that is going to be stressed, like connecting rods, I will used 7075 aluminum.
To answer your question about stability even when removing most of the stock and just leaving a shell like the bellhousing the flange face is still dead flat and parallel to the transmission mounting face. Even though the aluminum is rolled to size and has some stress put into it I find that it is very stable for making parts. The biggest drawback is if it needs welding that's why I'm going to try the Harris aluminum braze on this manifold.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on January 31, 2015, 08:22:07 PM
Gentlemen,
The intake manifold is finished, at least all the shape. All that's left to do is solder the cover plates over the runners when the soldering kit arrives. I finished up all the small machining jobs, the generator bracket, cutting the angle on the carb bases and drilling the carb mounting holes. It was then on to the burrs, stones, files and emery cloth. I will take more pictures when I do the soldering but for now here's where we're at.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Don1966 on January 31, 2015, 08:44:59 PM
I will say one thing, you sure have the will and determination to create. That's an awful lot of setups to get that manifold carved out like that. I don't think I have enough years left to learn enough and be able to get to the stage where I could touch that. The manifold is a trophy.

Don
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: metalmad on January 31, 2015, 08:50:22 PM
"That Manifold is a Trophy" You said it Don!
Pete
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: steamer on January 31, 2015, 08:52:08 PM
That looks fabulous George!


Dave
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: ths on January 31, 2015, 08:52:12 PM
Time, patience...but really having the confidence in your ability to get the result you want. Outstanding. Hugh.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: vcutajar on January 31, 2015, 09:02:57 PM
Amazing, simply amazing.

Vince
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Doc on January 31, 2015, 09:55:13 PM
Man that is looking nice I love that manifold!  :NotWorthy:
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: ColH on January 31, 2015, 11:11:24 PM
Hi George
Following along.  Don beat me to the question on whether you have a full size engine to work from.  Amazed with your work. I think you may have mentioned this in an early post but do you intend to put the engine in a car like Steve Is doing with his cavelle?
Col
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: fumopuc on February 01, 2015, 06:01:29 AM
WOW. George, it is like Don has mentioned already. This life seems to be to short to touch that level.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: ozzie46 on February 01, 2015, 02:02:03 PM
 Amazing work as usual George. You never cease to amaze me.  :pinkelephant: :pinkelephant:

   Ron
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: cfellows on February 01, 2015, 04:15:53 PM
Just don't understand how you do it, George.  The design, alone, is really impressive, let alone actually building it!

Chuck
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on February 01, 2015, 04:51:05 PM
Thanks guys,
Col, I don't really have any plans to put the engine into anything. I do have my 302 v-8 and the T-5 transmission and 9" Ford differential that I plan on building a chassis for, one day.
My enjoyment is building engines at this point. The flathead like the 302 is about 1/3 scale so that makes a frame about 40" long. That gets a little tough to take to shows.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on February 02, 2015, 05:38:49 PM
To finish the manifold machining I needed to make the patch plates to cover the runners. The runners were machined 'to the numbers' when I did them so I took measurements and both cavities were within .001 of each other. The patch plates needed to be .078 thick and having nothing that thickness I cut out a couple of pieces of .25 stock and first cleaned up one side. The pieces were then flipped and the .078 thickness was machined leaving a frame around the edge to support the plate while clamped in the vise.
I made a machining chart and started cutting the required shape, at first opening up the center windows so I wouldn't get any chatter on the side walls. I was using a .125 end mill to do the profiling.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on February 02, 2015, 05:48:21 PM
With the center area finished I did the outer sides of the legs. The piece was then taken to the bandsaw and the frame area was cut away. I measured all the dimensions of the part and found that I was +.003-.004, which was fine as I allowed .002 when I made the cutting chart. Better big than small. The next step was to file the overall dimensions first. This was followed by filing each leg to the proper size.
The inside corners were then squared up and a .125 radius was filed on two of the outer corners. I slowly fitted each leg until the pieces slid snugly into the cavity. With the fitting done I sketched the inner half of the port radius on each leg and burred and filed it to size. One down one to go.
The second piece was practically a carbon copy of the first, file and fit.
All that remains is to lay a bead of solder over the joint areas and then skim mill the bottom flat. I haven't received the aluminum solder kit yet so that will have to wait.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Dave Otto on February 02, 2015, 06:31:55 PM
Nice inlay work there George!

Dave
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: maury on February 02, 2015, 06:34:05 PM
George, great job fitting those inserts. I was just wondering, why would you even need to bother with the solder? From what I understand, there is no compression pressure on this part. I use the blue automotive silicon gasket compound on my engines, seems like that would seal anything that needs to be sealed in the manifold.

maury
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: 90LX_Notch on February 02, 2015, 11:36:25 PM
Interesting Maury.  The Gray RTV sets up real hard. It might something for George to consider.

-Bob
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: dsquire on February 06, 2015, 11:49:20 PM
George

You continue to amase me. Thanks for the fine work.  :pinkelephant: :pinkelephant:

Cheers  :cheers:

Don
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on February 26, 2015, 04:46:12 PM
I just got home from Florida so it's time to get back on the engine. There's so many things to do but I wanted to take a break from the aluminum for awhile so I started on the camshaft. I had made the step-off chart before I left so the tedious part of calculating numbers was done.
The cam diameter is .531 so I cut a piece of W-1 drill rod and turned it to length. It needed to be polished down about .0005 to get a nice fit in the block which had been reamed to size. Next up was to chuck it in the 4 jaw and get it running true to center drill the ends. The next step was to plunge in with a .032 necking tool to establish the lobe locations.  The main bearing areas were cut with a small radius to form the oil groove.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on February 26, 2015, 04:50:56 PM
I set up my H/V rotary table and indicated it square to the table. I then mounted the home-made tailstock and lightly clamped it in place. The cam blank was mounted in the chuck and indicated true close to the jaws. I then indicated along the length of the blank and tapped the tailstock over until the cam blank was parallel to the X axis.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on February 26, 2015, 04:57:06 PM
Ok, time to dive in and start making chips. I used a new .25 dia. end mill so I wouldn't have to stop and change cutters mid job. Following the step-off chart I started on the first lobe. There were 8 initial cuts to form the nose radius and then the rotary table was cranked 2 revolutions per cut. (8 degrees) This is one of those jobs where total concentration is a must, unless you want to make 2 of these things.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on February 26, 2015, 05:08:15 PM
All the lobes were cut to shape and the blank was then put back in the lathe to open up the spacing to the proper dimensions between the lobes. The reason I didn't do this the first time I had it in the lathe was because I wasn't sure how much the blank would chatter when being milled. As it turned out the vibration was minimal so it could have been done earlier.
The next step was to file all of the steps smooth. I used the same technique on the cam as I do on the casting shapes, I blue it with a permanent marker and then file till the blue disappears. Once all the filing was finished I polished all the lobes with fine emery cloth and then buffed them smooth and shiny. The cam journals were also buffed smooth.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Greg Haisley on February 26, 2015, 05:56:11 PM
Beautiful work!  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: vcutajar on February 26, 2015, 07:24:23 PM
Welcome back George.

I assume you used drill rod for the cam shaft because you intend to harden it.

Vince
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: KB on February 26, 2015, 08:56:43 PM

Amazing skill and patience, yielding a beautiful result.

Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on February 26, 2015, 09:59:29 PM
Hi Vince,
I use drill rod for all of my camshafts but they are left unhardened. I would suspect that trying to harden it would induce some warpage and without a means of grinding it would be junk. When using a cam with flat tappets like this one the lifters are also made from drill rod but they are hardened and polished. Over the years I have noticed no noticeable wear using this combination.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: ColH on February 26, 2015, 10:13:15 PM
Hi George

 Good to see you back at it - I was beginning to have withdrawals. Hope you had a nice time in Florida.

Col
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: b.lindsey on February 26, 2015, 11:10:07 PM
I am still following along George, got caught up with the more recent posts this afternoon. As impressive as always I  must say.

Bill
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Don1966 on February 26, 2015, 11:28:27 PM
Gorgeous work George, your still my hero.  :praise2: :praise2:

Don
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Myrickman on February 27, 2015, 01:44:48 AM
George, learning my way around this forum...who is doing what. Wow, functional art! Another super thread and build to keep tabs on.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: /// on February 27, 2015, 03:25:32 AM
Awesome work George!
....
This is one of those jobs where total concentration is a must, unless you want to make 2 of these things.
So if you're making a quad-cam would you need even less concentration than a twin-cam? Good news!  :Lol:
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: ths on February 27, 2015, 04:49:46 AM
I think that there's more than just concentration involved in that job (or any of your work). Much appreciated. Hugh.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: fumopuc on February 27, 2015, 05:09:15 AM
Hi Vince,
I use drill rod for all of my camshafts but they are left unhardened. I would suspect that trying to harden it would induce some warpage and without a means of grinding it would be junk. When using a cam with flat tappets like this one the lifters are also made from drill rod but they are hardened and polished. Over the years I have noticed no noticeable wear using this combination.
gbritnell
Hi George, I am watching and I try to learn. Thanks for the above given explanation. For my good to know and to file away. I hope to need it soon.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Brendon M on February 28, 2015, 12:40:00 AM
Of the methods I've now seen for making cams, this seems the most straight forward. Thank you for demonstrating :)

I would (eventually) like to try a similar method where you rotate the cam as the mill cuts, producing the rough lobe shape in one run. It remains to be seen if for a multi-cylinder cam there would be too much chatter/stress on the cam and components.

http://www.metalstop.com/technical/cam-lobe.shtml
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: kvom on February 28, 2015, 03:49:25 AM
I believe a CNC mill with a 4th axis and headstock could mill cam lobes.  Not much different than what George is doing manually except that the cutting would be continuous.

Draw the cam lobes in the XZ plane and program the tool path as a profile.  Y coord is fixed on the cam axis and Z varies as the cam rotates under the flat endmill.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on March 03, 2015, 01:26:33 AM
Next up is the crankshaft. Since I discovered 1144 steel I make all of my crankshafts from this material. It cuts great and the nicest part is there is virtually no warpage, even when making small cranks like the one for my inline 6 cylinder engine.
I chucked up the stock and supported the outboard end with a steady rest to center drill the ends. I then made a short cleanup cut on the O.D. so that I could indicate it true when mounted in the 4 jaw chuck. The other end was supported with the live center. The O.D. was finished for the entire length. I cut the nose of the crank down to .075 larger than the finish diameter so I could mill flats without compromising the finished diameter.
The flywheel end was also cut large enough over finish to also have flats cut on it.
The flats would be for indexing the cranks when cutting the throws.
While the stock was getting the flats milled I roughed out the main bearing areas. It's so much easier to cut the heavy stock with an end mill than trying to plunge with whatever type of cutter in the lathe.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on March 03, 2015, 01:31:51 AM
I have a large bifurcated tool that I only use for this type of work. I ground it from a .50 high speed lathe bit and reduced the area behind the cutting end for clearance. This took forever to grind so I only use it for making deep cuts like this. There is a radius on the outer corners and on the edges of the center notch. To set it up I first align the edge with my workpiece then using a dial indicator I check the tip for parallelism.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on March 03, 2015, 01:39:02 AM
All of the mains were cut leaving .006 for the possibility of warpage after the throws are all cut.
The blank was then put back into the mill vise and the first throw area was roughed down leaving .03 stock.
A set of fixture blocks was made from aluminum. The chuck end will fit the large flange that was left on the stock and the tailstock end will fit the crank nose. Each block has a set screw ground flat to accurately locate on the flats that were milled on the blank.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on March 03, 2015, 01:48:54 AM
The driving fixture block was mounted in the four jaw chuck and indicated. I made up a brass bushing with a .50 hole in it to accommodate the end mill shank for indicating. In this case the offset is .562 which give a total offset of 1.125 so I had to use a mike standard to get the extra 1.00 over my indicator travel. It's very important when making the fixture block to center the hole exactly in the direction opposite the offset. The reason for this is when setting the block in the chuck it needs to be perfectly centered so that you don't get a crooked offset when mounting the blank.
By this I mean you could have the fixture block offset in that direction and still obtain the required shift for the throws but the longitudinal axis would be at an angle and the throws would have a taper. 
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on March 03, 2015, 01:57:52 AM
With the fixture block set true the crank stock was mounted and locked in place with the set screw. The tailstock block was slid onto the end of the crank and the live center was put into it, snug enough to support but not tight enough to warp the blank.
At this point I realized that my special tool wasn't long enough to finish the throws so I had to grind another 3/16 from the sides of the tool blank. I then put the lathe into a lower speed range and started cutting. When you start to plunge in with this tool even though the tip is split it will chatter if you go too deep so you have to be patient and take what it will give you.
As you can see it finished up quite nicely.
Three more to go.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on March 04, 2015, 01:52:14 AM
All the turning is finished, whew!!. Normally when cutting the throws it's necessary to put some packing between the webs that have already been cut but with the size of this crank it cut without any chatter or deflection. The mains are .750 dia. and the throws are .64 dia. These dimensions were scaled from the full sized flathead crank.  I finished up the throws then mounted the shaft between centers to finish the mains. I had left about .008 for a cleanup just in case there was any warpage. I didn't measure with an indicator but to the naked eye it ran extremely true prior to cutting. Now I'll have to make a fixture to hold it so I can cut the stock away from the counterweights and drill the oil passages.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Don1966 on March 04, 2015, 02:54:52 AM
That's awesome George, I hope I make it to cabin fever I want to meet you.

Don
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: steamer on March 04, 2015, 11:12:36 AM
Beautiful work George!    Cross drilling that would put me into fits! :o

 :NotWorthy: :NotWorthy: :NotWorthy:
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: sshire on March 04, 2015, 11:51:45 AM
That was like watching a sculptor. Spectacular!
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Mosey on March 04, 2015, 12:48:20 PM
George,
Hope to meet you at CF.
Could you do a mockup at CF to demonstrate some of these techniques?
Mosey
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on March 04, 2015, 03:03:16 PM
Hi Mosey,
I don't know how far along I'll be with the flathead engine but I'm planning on bringing all the bits and pieces with me. I'm sure I'll have enough to keep me busy until then so I won't have to bench all the tool marks on the block or bellhousing. Using them I can explain how I go about setting up and doing the step-offs required to create a part. I will also have my I-pad with pictures which will help.
I look forward to seeing some of the east coast fellows that I haven't seen at NAMES.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Mosey on March 04, 2015, 10:02:38 PM
George,
That flathead will make my day! I intend to put your build into a booklet of instruction when you are finished, cutting out the comments from the peanut gallery, like "Wow, George"
Meeting you will be a high spot for me.
Mosey
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Roger B on March 05, 2015, 08:00:00 PM
Still following along, enjoying and learning  :praise2:  :praise2:  :wine1:
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: 90LX_Notch on March 05, 2015, 09:57:29 PM
George,
That flathead will make my day! I intend to put your build into a booklet of instruction when you are finished, cutting out the comments from the peanut gallery, like "Wow, George"
Meeting you will be a high spot for me.
Mosey

I concurr with Mosey.  I wasn't planning on going this year to C.F.  The purchase of the Rivett broke the bank; but once I saw that you were coming George, I'm finding away to make it.  You have always been a great source of inspiration to me.  Being a 5.0 guy i have always wanted to see your 302 as well as your other engines.

Bob
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on March 05, 2015, 10:28:57 PM
I'm greatly looking forward to seeing you fellows. I will have quite a few of my I.C. engines plus the T-5 trans and 9" differential. I'll probably brings some of my miniatures also.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Mosey on March 05, 2015, 11:20:03 PM
George,
Your group of models is reason enough to make  the trip. I'm buying!
Mosey
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on March 06, 2015, 01:25:17 AM
I finished the holding fixture so I can cut the counterweights and drill the oil passages. I have used the same aluminum plate that I started with. I just keep adding holes.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on March 06, 2015, 10:19:38 PM
I set the fixture up on the mill and indicated it parallel to the X axis. I found the easiest way to true up the faces to be cut was to use an adjustable parallel set to the height of the two opposite throws. This would eliminate having to indicate every time I had to rotate the crank to cut another counterweight. I could only cut one side of the counterweights at a time because the closest cap would have to be removed for clearance.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on March 06, 2015, 10:25:08 PM
All of the counterweights were cut. I have a casting of a V-8 crankshaft that I'm using as a model to do the counterweights. Each set of throws has a different amount of material removed.
The sides of the webs near the throws also needed to be cut at 15 degrees so I tilted the mill head and finished those.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on March 06, 2015, 10:31:44 PM
All the milling is compete on the crank. All that's left to do is drill the oil holes but I'll have to set up the angle table to do that. The holes need to go in at 25 degrees and although my mill head will go over that far there is no provision to crank it, you just loosen the clamp bolts and rotate it. With the motor being up top I don't know how top heavy it is but I'm not going to try and find out.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on March 06, 2015, 11:52:30 PM
George,  can we talk about the weather,  as there is nothing I can really add to the build, but, WOW. I think I might have said this once upon a time, but, this is like watching one of the old masters paint.  Uh how did you get Mona Lisa to sit like that,  that kinda good.

E
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Don1966 on March 07, 2015, 12:23:39 AM
It looks great George. May I ask how much time is involved making it? Just curious as to how much is involved. I am kind of confused when you first set up the crank in the lathe. You have an offset on the Tailstock but looks like your using the chuck to offset the head stock. Am I missing something your doing?

Don
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on March 07, 2015, 01:03:20 AM
Hi Don,
I made 2 blocks from aluminum. One for the chuck end and one for the tailstock. The headstock end goes in the 4 jaw chuck and is adjusted for the proper offset using a dial indicator. The stroke of the engine is 1.125 so the block was offset .562. The tailstock end was bored for a diameter on the end of the shaft. It also has a center drilled hole that is offset .562. When the crank piece is set in the headstock block and clamped on one of the 4 flats then the tailstock block is slipped on and it to is clamped to the matching flat. The live center is then inserted into the centerdrilled hole and adjusted with just enough pressure to hold it in place, so it doesn't distort the crank.
As far as time I probably have about 24 hours to date, that includes making the offset blocks and fixture plate. I will end up with about 30-32 hours when it's finished.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Don1966 on March 07, 2015, 01:11:26 AM
Thanks George now I understand. I didn't realize that you had flats on bothe ends. That makes it much easier to change.

Don
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: b.lindsey on March 07, 2015, 01:17:09 AM
I am out of superlatives too George, but having a blast following along as always with your builds.

Bill
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Roger B on March 07, 2015, 08:57:21 AM
Beautiful crankshaft  :praise2:  :praise2:

I also see in the background that you still use a vernier height gauge rather than a new fangled electronic one  :)
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: steamer on March 07, 2015, 11:28:06 AM
Daaaamn!!!!


 :NotWorthy: :NotWorthy: :NotWorthy: :NotWorthy: :NotWorthy: :NotWorthy: :NotWorthy:
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on March 07, 2015, 12:45:59 PM
Hi Roger,
Yes I still use an old vernier type height gauge. Even though the eyes are getting old I can still hit it within .001 and if need be I use a magnifier to check. All of my machining is done with a digital readout so the height gauge is used for reference lines or in combination with a (gasp) surface gauge with a DTI mounted.
The only thing I don't like about the height gauge is the way the scriber mounts. When I learned my trade many years ago all the height gauges had the scribers with the flat side up, that way you could touch your indicator tip to it for checking dimensions. On the Mitutoyo the scriber has the flat side down so you have to go underneath with the indicator. I understand this allow the scriber to go all the way to the bottom but I don't like working that low anyway.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: kvom on March 07, 2015, 01:01:07 PM
I also use a vernier gauge.  I check its zero using a gauge block.  I'm sure George does as well.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on March 07, 2015, 05:11:13 PM
Today's venture was the oil holes. I cleaned the mill table and mounted my angle milling table. I set the angle close with the vernier scale and then indicated across the face to set it square with the X axis.
The reason for this is because it's not an extremely accurate piece of tooling and as you rotate the table it changes the parallelism of the face. With that set I then trigged the needed angle and checked it with the dial indicator.
The fixture plate was then set up and indicated.
I gave myself some layout lines for the centers of the oil holes before mounting to the fixture plate. The centerline was then set by using an edge finder on the O.D. of the crank.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on March 07, 2015, 05:23:20 PM
The crankpin was brought to TDC by using an adjustable parallel under the 2 crankpins that are at 90 degrees. Picked up the centerline and then drilled with a #2 center drill which gave me an accurate starter hole for the 1/16th drill.
The 1144 steel cut nicely using a new 1/16th drill. I pecked it about every .10 to clear the chips. I also added a touch of cutting oil although as nicely as it cut I doubt it would have been necessary. I just didn't want the chips to gall in the hole.
With the first hole out of the way and the guidelines, speed and feed noted I proceeded to finish the other 3 throws.
The crank was removed after every drilling operation to chamfer the hole where it broke out into the main journal. The fixture blocks are a close fit to the crank and I wanted it to sit flat in the fixture.
The crank was then rotated 180 and all the steps repeated for the other direction.
It turned out to be a much easier operation than I had envisioned. The only other crank that I drilled for oil was for my 302 engine but that was so long ago I didn't remember how that went.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on March 10, 2015, 12:07:25 AM
Gentlemen,
The crank is finished. I spent the better part of today, burring, filing and polishing but it was completed without incident, oh yes and tweezing little slivers of steel out of my fingers. I set it up on blocks on my photo shooting stand and took picss of it rotated in different positions. On to the connecting rods.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: rythmnbls on March 10, 2015, 12:41:42 AM
Beautiful work on the crankshaft, it seems almost a shame that such nice parts are hidden from view when the engine is completed.

Best regards,

Steve.

Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: b.lindsey on March 10, 2015, 12:47:04 AM
What a beautiful piece George. Seems a shame to hide it inside the crankcase :)  Heck I would make one of those if I could and just put it on the mantle or bookshelf as artwork.

Bill
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Don1966 on March 10, 2015, 01:10:43 AM
Dam! that's a georgeous looking crank. Like Bill said it seems a shame to hide it inside the engine. George just when I think you've done your best you come up with something even better. I like.................. :praise2:

Don
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: petertha on March 10, 2015, 05:36:36 AM
Wow that's nice George.
- re that bifurcated tool you ground up, is the center relief so that it can traverse (ie reduce diameter) across the journal end-to-end manner between the weights? If so, do you save this tool only for the last bit of turning to dimension, or its used right from start?
- I'm guessing the corner radius is for fillet operation between weights. What keeps the connecting rods from migrating into these fillets?
- I was waiting to see you break out some cool lapping tool on journals, but alas no. So what's the finishing recipe to achieve the mirror, final dimension? Wet & dry on sticks or toolmaker stones or...?
- I really like your DTI widget. But I cant tell if the block clamps to the mill spindle cylinder or almost looks like the end mill arbor itself.. or maybe either/or?). Can you elaborate? I'm just looking at making one myself. You have the neatest gadget ideas.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on March 10, 2015, 12:42:00 PM
Hi Peter,

The width of the tip of the tool is a little bit less than half of whatever the journal width is. This allows the tool to pass over the cut made by the leading edge in both directions. With this crank it wasn't a problem because of the sizes involved but when making a small crank the tip of the tool starts to get quite small although a smaller tool won't have the extra side relief on the cutter. Being as I try to mill away the largest part of the material I use the turning tool for the whole operation.

All full sized cranks have radii in the corners. This is for strength and to minimize stress in the corners. When I make my rods, whether with or without bearing liners I put a matching radius on the edges to allow the rod to run on the corner radius. My rods will have .005 clearance on each side so .005 on the sides and .010 between adjacent rods.

To polish the journals and still keep them parallel and round I have rectangular sticks made from Maple wood onto which I glue various grades of abrasive papers. I use automotive wet/dry papers first and then finish up with crocus cloth. The sticks are made long enough to keep your hands clear of the rotating parts.

If you're referring to the DTI that I used for setting up the offset here's what I did. The flywheel end of the crank should always have a large diameter turned on it whether or not it eventually gets cut down. This allows a wider flat to be cut on it for the set screw to located as squarely as possible. That being said the fixture block requires a large matching bore. I don't like sliding aluminum against aluminum (galling) so I used a piece of brass for the plug. I turned the outside diameter with a little shoulder so it wouldn't get pushed too far into the bore and I bored the center hole for the end mill that you see. In this case it happened to have a .500 shank. I also have tooling dowels which are .0005 larger than the nominal diameter but I try to hit the nominal first and if I go a little over I can still use the tooling dowel. It just so happens I hit the .500 right on the nose the first time.
When setting up the block I took the compound off of the lathe so I had a nice area to clamp my magnetic base to. That way I can use the carriage and cross feed to position the DTI rather than having to push the magnetic base while the magnet is activated. With this particular crank the total travel was greater than the 1.00 indicator would give me so I used the micrometer standard as my extra spacer.
A note of information at this point. When setting up the block for the proper offset you also want to check the other two sides for proper centering to the lathe axis. If you don't you will induce a taper between the chuck and the live center. The first picture shows me checking the block. The second two, checking the offset.  Even worse you could warp the crank because of removing stock with a twisted load applied to it.

I hope this covered what you asked if not ask away.

George

Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Mayhugh1 on March 10, 2015, 04:20:32 PM
George,
Your crankshaft is nothing short of magnificent. I'm studying your technique closely as I'll soon be trying to make a similar one for my Merlin. Hope you won't mind a few dumb questions later when I get deep into it. - Terry
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on March 10, 2015, 04:46:41 PM
Hi Terry,
There's no such thing as a dumb question when someone is honestly trying to learn something. It's only dumb when they don't really care but ask anyway.
I'm humbled to have you ask anything after following your radial write-up and build.
Thanks,
George
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on March 10, 2015, 06:18:12 PM
George, the crank is stunning, but,  what less have we come to expect from you.  I'm with Bill, I would love to have that crank (and the whole engine ) in individual pieces to display as art.  I had a man try to sell me a Dale Jr. race tire made into a bar table( he knew I was a Ford man) ,  I'd rather have a Britnell made part in my display case anyday.  Looking forward to the handshake at CF

E
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: petertha on March 10, 2015, 06:31:19 PM
Thanks George. Re the dial test indicator question, I was wondering about the mounting bracket  & positioning arm gadget where it attaches to your mill spindle arbor? or end mill holder? Sorry for the confusion (but appreciate additional info on the crankshaft + DTI setup itself.)

Back on the custom tool bit, since you are entering the cut straight in, do you have relief in top view (exaggerated orange lines) and/or front view (exaggerated yellow lines)?
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on March 10, 2015, 08:57:41 PM
Hi Peter,
I first ground the blank to the thickness of the tip so that I could mike it and keep it parallel. I then ground the rear part of the blade about .025-.030 thinner per side than the tip. I figured this would allow me several sharpenings, or more. I then ground side clearance on the tip only. It tapered from the outer edge down to the bottom of the bit. (.50) I then ground front clearance, about 5 degrees. To split the tip I used a thin cutoff wheel in my Dremel grinder, first just plunging in and then tilting it to put a small amount of relief on the edges. I then lightly broke the outside corners with my bench grinder and finished up putting a nice radius on with a diamond honing stick. The diamond stick was also used to put a small radius on the inside corners although it's not absolutely necessary. The idea is to have the tool narrower than the total width of the cut so that both sides of the tip overlap.
I don't have any clearance on the sides going back from the tips as you have shown. With the space between the cheeks roughed out to size on the mill it's only necessary to round the journal. The tool is rigid enough so that once the journal is to size I can move the crossfeed out, touch the milled wall and then go back to my journal dimension. This will skim any small amount of material from the side.
The front edge of the tool was ground square to the sides to begin with so to set up for cutting I just line up either side of the tool square to the lathe axis and then run the DTI against the tip to verify that it is parallel to the lathe axis.
Here is the link to the build of my inline six cylinder engine. This was a little more complete writeup about the cranks machining and turning.
http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php?topic=2295.msg37648#msg37648
In regard to the DTI holder, I went back to the pictures and now I understand what you're asking. It's just a V- type clamp that clamps around my end mill holder. It has reamed holes in the corners with a thumbscrew to tighten the indicator stem. The indicator is mounted to an offset bracket that allows me to swivel it in or out so that I can indicate different diameter holes or bosses when setting up. I will take some pictures this evening and add to this post.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Art K on March 11, 2015, 01:45:58 AM
George,
Thank you for the detail in your engine builds. I have thought about various engines I would like to build and think about things like oil passages drilled in the crank and your fixture for drilling the V8 crank isn't something that even occurred to me. It will now, I have all sorts of aluminum in odd shapes that could be used for a fixture. Your tag line at the bottom of the page has always stuck with me "Talent unshared is talent wasted." I have worked with people who thought the opposite, and wouldn't even share the information that was needed to do my job properly. Thanks
Art
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on March 11, 2015, 02:49:56 AM
Thanks Art.
Peter,
Here's several pictures of the clamp that I made to hold my indicator. Nothing fancy but I can use it even with a cutter in the spindle. I don't have to take anything apart, just clamp and go. The indicator is on it's own swivel connection so I can move it in and out as needed. I originally made the offset swivel so that I could put the indicator in the tailstock chuck and adjust it up and down as needed to check pieces in the chuck.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Hugh Currin on March 11, 2015, 03:04:02 AM
To set it up I first align the edge with my workpiece then using a dial indicator I check the tip for parallelism.

George:

Thanks for all your instruction and guidance. I was using a cut off tool to machine in behind a shoulder today. I found this tip very useful.

Great build, thanks for documenting it with instruction and tips.

Thanks.

Hugh
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: petertha on March 12, 2015, 12:26:16 AM
Peter, Here's several pictures of the clamp that I made to hold my indicator.gbritnell
Perfect, thanks. Glad I asked!
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on March 16, 2015, 12:20:30 AM
With all the major parts machined it's time to start picking away at all the small bits and pieces.
I turned up all the main bearing inserts from bearing bronze rod. They were split and fitted to the crank and block. The caps were drilled for stop pins to keep the inserts from spinning. The inserts were drilled to match the oil passage in the block.
I turned the flywheel from 12L14 steel (4.25 dia.) and drilled and reamed the mounting holes to match the crankshaft.
I turned the blanks for the timing gears, steel for the cam and brass for the crank. The cam gear will be pressed on with no actual way to align it for timing so the crank gear will have 4-.062 key slots, one lined up with a tooth, one lined up between two teeth, one a 1/4 between the root and tip and the last tooth 1/4 on the other side of the root. This will allow me to set the cam timing within 3 crank degrees which will be close enough.
The gears are 32 D.P. and I just happen to have a set of involute cutters that fit the number of teeth I needed.
The teeth were cut on the cam gear and then it was set up on the rotary table to have some slots milled into it.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: ironman123 on March 16, 2015, 12:36:18 AM
Being a Flathead Ford guy, I am loving this thread.  Thank you George for this build. :popcorn: :popcorn: :whoohoo:
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Brendon M on March 18, 2015, 06:49:12 AM
Hello George

Without the size references in the background, you would think you are looking at the real thing  :ThumbsUp:

...
I turned up all the main bearing inserts from bearing bronze rod. They were split and fitted to the crank and block. The caps were drilled for stop pins to keep the inserts from spinning.
...

Do you have photos of the bearings? One of the things I have not worked out is how to prevent the bearings from spinning.

Thank you :)
Brendon
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on March 20, 2015, 06:39:34 PM
Gentlemen,
The next part or parts are the connecting rods. In the past I have used bronze for my rods and have had good luck both with strength and durability but for this engine I decided to go with steel rods and bronze bearing inserts both for the journals and wrist pin bores.
I started by squaring up some stock and milling it to the proper thickness. To keep track of the rods and caps and as to which cylinder they would go into I stamped identification numbers onto the sides of the stock, taking into account where the future milling would be so that I didn't cut them off. By stamping them at this point I wouldn't have to worry about distorting the caps by banging on them later on.
The next operation was to drill and counter drill each of blanks for the cap screws. I also drilled and reamed for the bearing stop pin.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on March 20, 2015, 06:47:42 PM
When I calculated the drilling depths I took into account the width of the saw cut and an additional .04 per side for cleanup. I gave myself a guide line and sawed each of the caps off. The caps and rods were then set up in the mill and to size. The next step was to tap all of the holes 5-40 thread. The caps were then mounted with socket head screws. The clearance holes were drilled .125 so I could use the screws to align the caps to the rods. I snugged up the screws and then clamped each assembly in the vise to make sure that all the surfaces were flush before finally tightening the screws.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on March 20, 2015, 06:53:23 PM
I set up the stop rod for my mill vise so I could drill and bore each of the rods in the exact same place. Each rod was center drilled at both locations, journal and pin, and then the journal ends were drilled with successively larger drills. The finished size for the journals is .702. This takes into account the thickness of the bearing insert. Each hole was finished with the boring head to make sure that the holes were accurate both in diameter and position.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on March 20, 2015, 07:01:53 PM
I then drew a guideline on each rod so that I could bandsaw the extra stock off. For all the finishing operations the rods would need to be mounted on a fixture plate. Using a previous plate I put new holes in it to locate the rods. The center hole is tapped 10-24 for the hold down screw. Above this is a counterbored hole, .250 for the pin and .375 for the journal. I then turned up plugs to go into each hole that the rods would locate on. A cap was also turned up that had a flange to match both finished diameters. This would aid in getting close with the end mill while finishing the side profiles.
The rotary table was set up and indicated. The fixture plate was then mounted and the center for the side radius of the rod was picked up.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on March 20, 2015, 07:05:25 PM
Here are pictures of the rods with the side profiling completed.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on March 20, 2015, 07:07:09 PM
The final operation with this setup was to flute the rods. Using a .125 end mill with a small corner radius each side of the rods were cut .040 deep.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Roger B on March 20, 2015, 07:25:30 PM
I find making one piece hard enough  ::) I have great respect for those making multi cylinder engines  :praise2:

Still following and learning  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp:  :wine1:
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Hugh Currin on March 20, 2015, 11:18:59 PM
The final operation with this setup was to flute the rods. Using a .125 end mill with a small corner radius each side of the rods were cut .040 deep.

George: Did you use a "bull head" cutter or grind the corner radius on this cutter? If ground did you do this "off hand"? What type of grinder did you use?

Thank you.

Hugh
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Don1966 on March 20, 2015, 11:27:02 PM
Still with you George and thanks for these blow by blow photos of the connecting rods. Gives a good insite on how to go about it. Did I say great work................... :praise2:

Don
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on March 20, 2015, 11:33:25 PM
The rods look awesome George.  If SoCal Customs or Speedway Motors ever sees this thread they are going to be courting you and your talents. 

E
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: b.lindsey on March 21, 2015, 12:07:03 AM
Still following along here too George, admiring every part and picture.

Bill
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on March 21, 2015, 01:23:31 AM
Hi Hugh,
I hand ground the radius close then touched it up with a diamond stick. The radius is about .047. I use a headband magnifier for the delicate jobs.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: fumopuc on March 21, 2015, 04:59:35 AM
Hi George, I am still following alonge and try to learn. Thanks for taking the time to show all these operations you need to get these beautiful part.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Hugh Currin on March 21, 2015, 02:37:03 PM
Hi Hugh,
I hand ground the radius close then touched it up with a diamond stick. The radius is about .047. I use a headband magnifier for the delicate jobs.
gbritnell

Geroge: Thanks for the response and info. That's what I thought but wanted to hear for sure.

Great job on the build, and on the write-ups. Thanks for taking the time.

Hugh
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: petertha on March 21, 2015, 04:37:25 PM
George, your setups are a gold mine. Can you elaborate on the RT / fixture plate pre-alignment aspect? If I understand the cutting operation, you need to have the plate both spindle center referenced + squared in order to mill the arc sweep? So when you say you picked up center, do you mean sink a pointed tool into the spot drill reference & swivel the plate about that axis until the machined edge is square to the RT flange or something? Otherwise I'm having trouble visualizing how to get alignment with indicators etc.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on March 22, 2015, 03:06:19 PM
Hi Peter,
Here's the steps I do to set up and cut a radius.

I use R-8 end mill holders in my mill and the .50 one that I normally have in the spindle has about .0002 runout. (close enough) In a previous post I had mentioned that I use a sleeve to reduce down for using end mills with a .375 shank. This is so I don't have to keep changing holders. The sleeve I made when inserted into the .50 holder has about .0003 total runout. (close enough)

I made up a very snug fitting brass plug with a 30 degree taper on the end to match my center drills.

I indicate my rotary table until it's centered and then slide the fixture plate close to center. I then bring the brass plug down into the center drilled hole or the pilot hole for whatever piece I'm going to spin.

Usually if it's just for a radius on a part I will end it there but if it needs to be more accurate I will then indicate the hole and adjust the fixture.

I then put in my end mill and calculate the radius of the part plus the radius of the endmill and make my cut. Here again if it needs to be an accurate diameter I will stay a couple of thousands away from my finished dimension due to a little runout in the end mill and holder.

gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on March 22, 2015, 03:08:22 PM
Here are some pictures of the finished rods. All that remains is to make the bearing inserts for them.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on March 25, 2015, 02:45:39 PM
With so many parts to make it's just kind of a grab bag at the moment so I started on the cylinder liners. They are made from cast iron, the type being ductile with several designations, Durabar, continuous cast or schedule 40. Even though it's still a dirty job it's a very nice cutting iron and leaves a great finish. This iron comes with a scale on it so a light cleanup cut was made so that it positioned in the chuck better. I only drilled deep enough to make one liner at a time (2.00 long) to reduce the vibration when boring. I used the largest bar I had to also help with the vibration. The outside diameter was left heavy until the bore was finished and then it was turned to size, one for the flange, one for the upper diameter and one for the remainder of the tube. When I bored the block the holes varied by .001-.0015 so each barrel was turned and marked for it's respective cylinder.
The bore is an odd size due to trying to scale the original engine down so this meant that I couldn't buy an off the shelf lap so I made my own. I copied the .75 diameter commercial one that I had bought for my inline six engine. It's just a brass barrel tapped on one end to fit the shank (1/2-20 thread) with a 6 degree tapered hole in the opposite end to accept the cylindrical wedge to open it up. Once the turning and tapping was complete I put it in my dividing head to slot the walls.
I ordered some high strength Loctite to install the liners so as soon as it arrives I'll be putting the liners in place.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: tvoght on March 25, 2015, 03:12:53 PM
Hi George,
I'm still watching and learning. Impressive work as always.

I have a question about the cast iron. It is typically oversize as purchased, and as an example, speedymetals supplies this note:

Attention: Dimensions listed below are oversize (+1/8") and will finish at listed size.  For example: 5/8" rd will measure at 3/4" but will finish at 5/8" rd.

What do they mean by "finish" here? Cleanup to remove the scale still leaves the stock well over nominal size, so I'm wondering about this. Does the outer
1/16th inch have different characteristics (from the mill process) that some users would care about, for instance? I've just been wondering.

Thanks,

--Tim
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on March 25, 2015, 03:34:18 PM
Hi Tim
The stock does come oversize. I bought 1.00 diameter stock and the measurement over the scale was about 1.06 so it did clean up to 1.00. The only problem I had with this particular bar was that it had what looked like a hard spot, just a line, spaced almost evenly about every 2.25 inches. I didn't hurt the tool (carbide) and by the time I got the finished O.D. down to size, .936 diameter almost all of it had machined out. My concern was that it was cast into the inside bore but after close inspection with a bright light I didn't see anything inside. Whew! I must say that out of all the continuous cast iron that I have used this is the first one that I have had this condition with. Had it dulled the tool while cutting I might have bought another piece considering what it was being used for.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on March 25, 2015, 06:22:43 PM
George,  still following.  We all should remember that most metals as we use them are manufactured and variables definitely come into play. Back when I had a real job, I had a boiler tube welder have 16 rejected x-rays for incomplete fusion on one panel. I knew the kid and knew he was hot and fast, and this just wasn't his style.  I sent the x-ray techs back up to shoot a foot above weld line, and guess what,  the line was still there.  You just work with what you have. I showed my father(79)  this thread and he wants to know if you have figured out how to keep the head studs from twisting off  :shrug:, guess he once had a problem :thinking:. See you in York

E
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on March 25, 2015, 07:03:15 PM
Hi Eric,
The problem with the head studs on the Ford flatheads came from the thin head deck above the water jackets. To get the exhaust through the water jacket the area above the exhaust runners needed to be as wide as possible and without much restriction so this thinned out the head deck. It would be almost impossible to find any old flathead without cracks from the head stud holes. With my exhaust exiting on the top of the block I don't have that problems so my head deck is thick enough to hold well.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: petertha on March 25, 2015, 08:09:31 PM
The outside diameter was left heavy until the bore was finished and then it was turned to size - gbritnell
Hmm.. another good point to ask some questions. On my liner prototype (not knowing better) I did the OD turning first figuring A) if I messed up that OD dimension/finish, at least I didn't also lose the more lengthy boring work too B) I was concerned about distorting or egging the liner circularity by the cutting tool 'pushing on' the OD when it was a thin shell. Q1 - Sounds like your preference is the opposite: leave the wall thickness meat on until boring is done for less vibration & dimensioning? And maybe cutting outside ->in or inside -> out is just tit-for-tat from distortion standpoint?

Q2- In my case I have to arrive at finished (0.945") bore size + finish because I'm using commercial RC rings. After boring I ran a reamer for cleanup/circularity, took maybe 0.003" off. That aspect worked well & somewhat minimized hitting exact dimension with boring bar alone. But because of reamer size, it left it about 0.006" under target size. I figured that's fine, would allow me some mistake tolerance. What I hadn't counted on was how long it takes to lap that amount off. I have the same lapping tool as you show, but 400 & 320 was very slow. After maybe 10 min on the lathe I'd take off 0.0005". The finish was great but a long ways off final dimension. I have some 220 coming, but now suspect this mode is a waste of time & I should just bore to within say 0.003" or so. Can you elaborate on your target dimensions & lapping grit strategy?
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on March 25, 2015, 11:05:26 PM
Thanks for the explanation George.  Dad said the old saying was if it got hotter than your girlfriend, you were in trouble.  Love the old flathead,  if I was building a show car,  it'd be a flathead  :naughty:

E
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on March 26, 2015, 02:12:52 AM
Hi Peter,
I have always found that boring any kind of hole in a thin walled section produces a chatter so that's why I adopted the procedure that I use. I try to leave the wall as heavy as possible so that my boring operation is nice and smooth. My finish bore diameter is .832. I bored the holes to .831. I tried for .0005 press fit into the block. I might be a tenth or two off of that dimension but that's what I was shooting for. I'll be using Loctite with that. Even with a .0005 press fit I find that it will still collapse the wall a slight amount, maybe .0007 on the diameter so now I have the initial .001 that I left plus anywhere from .0007 to .001 more. This leaves me around .002 to hone. I set my hone so that it will slip into all the bores with a little clearance for the lapping compound. I spin the hone at a slow speed 200 rpm and work it back and forth in each hole until I no longer feel any resistance, or very little resistance. I then adjust the hone ever so slightly and redo each bore. I use a medium grade honing paste. The idea is to get each cylinder the same size. Once I feel that I have achieved this I wash out all the grit with solvent and take measurements. As you mentioned you can hone for quite awhile and not take much stock off. At this point if I have a cylinder or two that's a little off I will work them until they match the others. Once I have everything equal I then wipe off the hone and apply a very fine paste. I then take only a few passes in each bore just to give a nice smooth finish. Not shiny smooth but not dark grey looking from the coarser paste.
The one thing that I have going for me is that whatever I end up with I make the rings and pistons to fit. With using commercial rings you have to be a little more careful but I don't think I would leave more than .002 for honing. Even if you end up at +.0005 or -.0005 the rings will still seal. The main thing is to get the bores round and straight.
As a side note once I have the bore turned I jam a wadded up paper towel into the bore. This minimizes the chatter while turning the O.D. My finished walls are only .05 and I got no chatter on the O.D.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on March 31, 2015, 02:31:38 AM
Sometimes what seems like it should be simple or maybe not as hard turns out to be a real problem. In designing the engine I followed the full size engine in regard to the various helical gears that were used. Having made the Chuck Fellow's fixture to cut the helical gears for my Ford 300 six I figured it wouldn't be a big deal to make them for this engine. I think part of the problem is the pitch of the 300 gears was much finer, about 56 D.P. as I recall compared to 40 on this engine.

I made the first cutter by grinding a high speed blank to the required radius and cutting it from W-1 drill rod. In cutting it I went to my numbers but it turns out that the width of the root came out to wide. I should have checked it when I cut it but I relied on my numbers. When I made the gears for the 300 six the first thing I did was cut a pair of spur gears to check the mesh. When I cut the spur gears with this 40 D.P. tool it left the teeth too narrow. At this point I checked the width of the cutter and found it to be .005 too wide. This doesn't sound like a lot but when you cut two gears you end up with .010 lash between the mating pair.

Rather than annealing this cutter and knowing that it would be hard to make an intermittent cut across the flutes I just made another cutter. This time I checked before removing it from the lathe. I turned up another set of blanks and cut a second pair of spur gears. This time they came out very well.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on March 31, 2015, 02:38:54 AM
With the glow of success at hand I set about making the necessary new parts for the Chuck Fellow's fixture, a new index wheel and a couple of helical templates, one for a right hand and one for a left.
When I  saw what Chuck had used for his helical template, a piece of .125 aluminum as I remember, and knowing how hard it is to bend it into a 1.00 diameter I opted for a piece of .032 brass. I cut the template out and then set it up on my sine plate to check the angle. With a little filing I got it spot on. The next step was to anneal it to easy the bending. The template was then formed around a piece of 1.00 stock.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on March 31, 2015, 02:48:27 AM
Two locations were marked for the mounting screws and using a small ball ended burr in my Dremel I ground the holes into the helical template. These were then finished up with a file. The new index wheel and template were installed on the fixture and some blanks were made to cut the gears from. For the distributor the gear on the cam will be steel and the other brass. For the oil pump drive there will be 2 steel and one brass.

I set the fixture into the vise and aligned it using a 45 degree tool makers triangle. The first blank was inserted and locked down with the set screw. The hardest part in cutting helicals is getting the cutter right on the center of the stock. Too high or too low from center makes an irregular tooth.

To cut the brass gear I made three passes but for the steel one I had to go with four.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on March 31, 2015, 03:00:38 AM
When I got the first pair cut I needed to check them for the proper mesh and center spacing so I dug out my checking fixture. It's just a small angular block with a bushed hole in one side and a slot on the other side for a moveable bushing. This way I can make bushings for different shaft sizes. The gears were brought into mesh, the moveable bush was tightened, the gears were removed and then using a DTI and a height gauge I checked the distance. With the gears in the proper mesh the center distance was .005 to close so I set that pair of gears aside and made up 2 new blanks. For 40 D.P. the total infeed is .054 which I had used for the first set. For the second set I only went in .052. The blanks were then put into the lathe and the proper width gear was parted off. This pair was then mounted in the fixture for checking. This time the mesh was within .002 and the profile looked pretty good.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on March 31, 2015, 03:06:08 AM
That takes care of the distributor end and the gear for the top of the oil pump. The remaining 2 gears to drive the oil pump will need new helical templates, one for a left hand helix and one for the larger diameter intermediate gear.
At this point it's too late to change the engine design but had I to do over I would have forgone trying to replicate the full sized engine and just made a simpler setup to drive the oil pump.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Don1966 on March 31, 2015, 03:27:34 AM
George I would say you did a dam good job making those gears. Truly inspirational bud and I like............ :praise2:

Don
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on March 31, 2015, 10:45:07 PM
One last gear to make, the intermediate gear for the oil pump drive. This would require another cutter and helical template.
To calculate the proper cutter for a given helical gear there is a mathematical formula based on the number of teeth on the gear and the helical angle. This gear has 22 teeth but when the profile of the cutter is calculated it's for a 60 tooth gear. Using Don's spread sheet for calculating the required numbers I ground up a .375 high speed lathe tool with a .349 diameter ball on the end. The cutter was made from W-1 drill rod, hardened and tempered. 
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on March 31, 2015, 10:54:53 PM
I could just barely use the helical gear cutting fixture the way that it was built because the template for this gear is 37.3 degrees and it had to be modified to allow enough travel to cut the gear.
As shown previously I cut a piece of .032 brass and made the template. It was mounted on the fixture along with a blank for the gear.
I cut the first gear and when I was finished I had a close look at it and saw small steps on one side of the tooth profile. The number of steps matched the number of cuts I made to go to the proper depth.
It almost looks like something was flexing with each cut but the cutter is quite rigid and I can't imagine the fixture shaft is flexing enough to do this so I'm kind of at a loss. In the photos you can see the small steps.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on March 31, 2015, 11:00:20 PM
The cutter was cutting the brass quite easily and I was conventional cutting so for the next blank I figured I would go to full depth on one pass. (.054) When I got finished I examined the gear and it looked great so with the mesh issues I had with the smaller gears and everything already set up I cut another gear but this time only went to .051. I don't have a setup made to check the center distances yet but I assume between the 2 gears I should be able to make them work.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on March 31, 2015, 11:04:10 PM
This last photo shows the gear train to drive the oil pump. The small right hand helical gear mounts on the end of the camshaft. It drives the left hand intermediate gear and it drives the oil pump.
Boy I'm sure glad this part of the project is done!
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on March 31, 2015, 11:17:44 PM
I would like to take this opportunity to thank the following people, without whom this project would have taken a different turn. First to Chuck Fellows for devising this fixture and the initial calculations to make helical gears. Next would be to Marv Klotz for his wonderful array of quick calculation programs and especially the follow up program for cutting these gears. If you haven't done so already I suggest downloading a few of Marv's programs, they are extremely helpful. And last but not least is Don for his spread sheet to calculate the button dimensions for cutting spur gears.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: ironman123 on April 01, 2015, 12:21:35 AM
Great work George.  Just saying. :praise2:
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: DavidF on April 01, 2015, 04:32:12 AM
Hi Eric,
The problem with the head studs on the Ford flatheads came from the thin head deck above the water jackets. To get the exhaust through the water jacket the area above the exhaust runners needed to be as wide as possible and without much restriction so this thinned out the head deck. It would be almost impossible to find any old flathead without cracks from the head stud holes. With my exhaust exiting on the top of the block I don't have that problems so my head deck is thick enough to hold well.
gbritnell

  It took me 8 months and 3 complete engines before I found one that was crack free in the critical areas, and yep it does have the typical crack from the head bolt hole to the coolant passage on the deck.  I did find one block that I spent hours maging the top and didnt find one single crack, man it was perfect! (until I rolled it over and found the 12" long split down the pan rail  :facepalm: )  Most of the blocks I inspected were cracked from the center cylinders across to the valve seat and into the bowl. I wonder how much longer we have to wait to get reproduction blocks??
(http://i1102.photobucket.com/albums/g446/davidflowers1/Mobile%20Uploads/utf-8BSU1BRzA1MzguanBn.jpg) (http://s1102.photobucket.com/user/davidflowers1/media/Mobile%20Uploads/utf-8BSU1BRzA1MzguanBn.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on April 01, 2015, 05:30:19 AM
Yes they were notorious for that but then again you have to consider that the last American ones were made 62 years ago.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: cfellows on April 01, 2015, 07:04:36 AM
I would like to take this opportunity to thank the following people, without whom this project would have taken a different turn. First to Chuck Fellows for devising this fixture and the initial calculations to make helical gears. Next would be to Marv Klotz for his wonderful array of quick calculation programs and especially the follow up program for cutting these gears. If you haven't done so already I suggest downloading a few of Marv's programs, they are extremely helpful. And last but not least is Don for his spread sheet to calculate the button dimensions for cutting spur gears.
gbritnell

Thanks for the recognition, George.  One thing I did was bevel the outer edge of the fixture spindle so the cutter could get closer without hitting it.  Your gears turned out really good.

Chuck
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on April 01, 2015, 11:51:58 AM
Hi Chuck,
I thought about that when I was sneaking up on it while making the cut. I'll chamfer it for the next set of gears.  :lolb:
George
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on April 03, 2015, 04:49:19 PM
I'm still waiting for the Loctite to arrive so I can install the cylinder liners so I figured I would finish up the water pumps.
The pump shafts ride on 2 sealed stainless steel bearings. The shaft itself and all the internal parts are also stainless steel. I have an O ring seal at the back end. The impeller was machined from brass. I turned the O.D. and drilled and reamed the center hole. This will be pressed onto the shaft. I cut the fins with a .094 end mill and then used a .010 slitting saw to cut the bottom of each fin away from the back disc for a short distance. This would allow me to bend the fins to give a better flow to the coolant. The fins are also bent at an angle from the vertical to also aid in the directional flow. The water enters the impeller from the holes drilled at the root of each fin.
The pulleys were turned from 6061 aluminum and are held in place against a shoulder on the shaft with a 5-40 nut on the end.
The impeller has a stainless steel spacer that runs against the inside of the pump and with the shouldered pulley I adjusted the end play to about .005. The bearings are a nice push fit in their bores in case I have to remove them to replace the O ring seal along the way.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Don1966 on April 03, 2015, 07:56:15 PM
That is turning into one bad ass engine George and those gears are just awesome. Water pump isn't bad either. Damm.. ......I like........................... :praise2:
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: fumopuc on April 03, 2015, 08:12:20 PM
Hi George, it's a pity that the distance from Munich to York and Cabin Fever is something about 4200 miles. I would enjoy it very much to see this engine or one of your others.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on April 09, 2015, 01:00:42 AM
I made a couple of videos of all the parts and pieces up till now. It's a condensed version of everything I've posted in this thread. I know that everyone here likes look at pictures and videos so here you are.
I'll be at Cabin Fever over the weekend but will be back hard at it when I return. Thanks everyone for following along.
S_v0Ewydv-sxxOx3DpbWxg
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: tvoght on April 09, 2015, 02:01:39 AM
That's a great review of the work to date. Enjoy Cabin Fever this weekend.

--Tim
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: ozzie46 on April 09, 2015, 02:09:39 PM
George I have been faithfully following along as a lurker as you made this but the videos really make it come alive. Absolutely amazing work.  :cartwheel: :cartwheel: :cartwheel:

  Ron
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: vcutajar on April 09, 2015, 08:30:53 PM
Super videos George.

Vince
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Coopertje on April 10, 2015, 11:49:27 AM
Hi George,

I am enjoying the updates on your engine, its coming along really well! Makes my fingers itch to continue the work on mine. Unfortunately there are some other things in the way for the last couple of months, hope to get back to the V8 build soon.... I have been scratching my head over a good water pump design, in more particular the bearing and O-ring sealing. Up to now could not find a proven design. Do you happen to have some rough cross section sketch of your water pump? Or maybe some pictures that shows the separate components, I can make my water pump design for my own engine based on that.
Thanks, best regards Jeroen
PS. Hope you did not damage your water pump when it dropped on the floor.....
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on April 23, 2015, 02:56:32 AM
Gentlemen,
Well I'm back from Cabin Fever so it's time to get back to work. The first thing I wanted to do was finish the block. I need to do this so that I can fit the lifters, valves and such so that I can move on to the other parts.

I had the liners machined prior to Cabin Fever so the first think I did was to wash the block with hot soapy water to remove any oil and swarf that might be in the water jacket area. I made up a drift plug that slipped inside the liners so that I could tap them in place. I only went for a .0015 press fit both at the top and bottom. This was augmented with Loctite. The block was warmed with a heat gun and the liners were tapped in place until the shoulder on the sleeve bottomed out. I left the sleeves about .015 long so they could be trimmed flush with the head deck afterwards.

I turned up the valve guides from bronze here again trying to maintain a .0015 press fit. The valve stem diameter is .09375. A specially formed tool was made to fit over the tapered end of the guide so that they could be tapped in place. Once I had all the guides inserted I made and pressed in the valve seats. These were made from 1144 steel.

I had a seat cutting tool in my drawer full of specialty cutters but the one with the .094 guide was just a little bit small so I had to make another from drill rod.
Once the tool was made the seats were all cut by lightly turning the tool by hand and just shaving off the metal.

The angle table was then set up on the mill and the block mounted to the original fixture plate. The angle was set for 45 degrees and the table and fixture plate were adjusted until I got a -0- reading in both X and Y directions. The tops of the liners were then trimmed flush with the head deck.

The next step was to get out all the burrs, mounted stones and files to clean up all the machining marks. I spent about a day doing this. The final process was to hone all the bores to get them true and to size. I had mentioned earlier that I had to make my own hone due to the fact that the bore is an odd size (.832 dia.) This is really a messy job and once finished the block had to be washed with solvent and then hot soapy water again.

I can now say that the block is finished.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Don1966 on April 23, 2015, 02:07:34 PM
George as always your work is tops. The block looks good with the liners and valve sets installed. Glad I got a chance to see it and put it in my hands to see it's size and quality.  :praise2:

Don
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on April 24, 2015, 04:57:59 PM
I have just finished hours of burring, filing and sanding on the last two remaining pieces, the bellhousing and the timing cover. I was told by a friend of mine that it would be a shame to remove all the tool marks from the bellhousing for the fact that it showed all the machining steps to finish it but although he had a point it just wouldn't fit the rest of the engine. The hardest part was finishing the inside. I probably should have made the steps about half the increments that they were. Nevertheless we a lot of filing I got it smooth.
I wasn't until I viewed the pictures that I saw the layout bluing in a couple of the mounting hole counterbores.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on April 24, 2015, 04:59:44 PM
The timing cover was quite a bit easier for the fact that it just wasn't as large as the bellhousing but it did have much smaller corners to get into.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: b.lindsey on April 24, 2015, 05:31:50 PM
Beautiful George as always...but you really must do something about that speck of layout blue  :lolb:

Bill
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Don1966 on April 24, 2015, 06:40:38 PM
Those came out great George and can I ask what did you used to get into those corners with?

Don
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: sshire on April 24, 2015, 09:58:59 PM
After having them at my right elbow and staring at them in amazement for 2 days at Cabin Fever, I'm officially blown away (I'm also sure there's a better UK term to add to my list)
As always, a spectacular result.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: fumopuc on April 25, 2015, 07:10:04 AM
Speechless and still following along quietly.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on April 28, 2015, 04:27:33 PM
This is my process for making the bearing inserts for the rods.

Over the years I have used a couple of different methods for making bearing inserts. One process was to machine a piece of bearing bronze rod halfway down and then soft solder a replacement piece to it. This would be set up on center then bored and turned. One problem with this method was that with thinner bearings sometimes the solder would break while turning the inserts so I opted for plan B.

I bored and turned the bearing bronze material to make individual sleeves. I then made up a small fixture consisting of a boss that was a couple of thousands smaller than the I.D. of the bearing, a flat on the top to accommodate a small finger clamp and relief on both sides just for clearance for the slitting saw. The bearing was slid onto the boss and clamped lightly in place. Using a .010 slitting saw I set it to cut right at center. Each bearing was cut this way. 
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on April 28, 2015, 04:36:54 PM
The next step was to locate a drilled hole at the center of the lower insert both axially and longitudinally. Using a discarded bearing insert I sawed it in half like I did for the other inserts only for this one I moved off center .005 to take up half the thickness of the saw blade. Using this piece I clamped it onto the fixture and indicated it horizontal. This would serve as a stop to keep the inserts from rotating while drilling. The shoulder of the fixture was then picked up and the centerline of the insert was established. I then set an insert in place and while holding it tightly against the shoulder I center drilled and drilled it. The reason for the hole is prevent the insert from spinning in the connecting rod. A small brass pin is pressed into the bottom center of the rod cap which fits into this hole.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on April 28, 2015, 04:42:06 PM
The bearing is not a true full diameter as it's missing the .010 saw cut but with the greatest pressure on the bottom part of the insert both on the compression and power strokes that small gap won't affect the support of the rod to journal. I have used this method in the past with good results so I'm just repeating an easy way of making split inserts.
Even when the solder method is used once the solder is melted out of the joint there is still a minute gap, say .002-.003. Depending on how thick the solder was when the two halves were joined.
The only other way to make true inserts would be to make double the amount of bearing inserts and cut them in half with a .005 shift in the saw then discard the thinner pieces.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on April 28, 2015, 04:49:21 PM
Hi Don,
In reply to your post #318 I have a very large assortment of burrs, both carbide and tungsten and they go from extremely small up to .125 with varying tip shapes. I also have a similar assortment of small mounted stones all on .125 shanks. I generally use the blue grade of stone which is a medium cut. I have a stick of waxy lubricant which I coat the stones with. This aids in both cutting and keeping the stones from clogging, especially when they are used on aluminum.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: tvoght on April 28, 2015, 05:46:16 PM
Thanks for showing this simple and effective fixture. I always feel bad about not asking more questions, but the photographs and descriptions are so complete there's very little left to ask.

--Tim
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on April 28, 2015, 10:53:42 PM
That's just too slick on the inserts, been wondering about them. Brittnel 77's :lolb:. What was the last Ford engine to use babbitt inserts :shrug:.

E
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Don1966 on April 28, 2015, 11:31:26 PM
Hi Don,
In reply to your post #318 I have a very large assortment of burrs, both carbide and tungsten and they go from extremely small up to .125 with varying tip shapes. I also have a similar assortment of small mounted stones all on .125 shanks. I generally use the blue grade of stone which is a medium cut. I have a stick of waxy lubricant which I coat the stones with. This aids in both cutting and keeping the stones from clogging, especially when they are used on aluminum.
gbritnell
Hi George and thanks for the reply and would it be to much trouble to show us a photo of the burrs and stones?

Thanks Don
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Roger B on April 29, 2015, 02:40:54 PM
Magnificent work  :praise2:  :praise2: Still following along, enjoying and learning  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp:  :wine1:
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on May 01, 2015, 01:30:47 AM
This first response is for Don.
Here's the burrs and mounted stones I use for my detail work.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on May 01, 2015, 01:47:17 AM
While waiting for stock to make the lifters I moved onto the pistons.
The diameter is .830 so I started with 1.00 round stock. I center drilled the material followed with a .250 drill to provide a pocket for the later operation of milling out the inside of the piston. This was followed with a .50 end mill to rough out the skirt area. The next step was to bore the skirt area to the finished diameter and depth.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on May 01, 2015, 02:01:10 AM
The next step was to turn the outside diameter to the finished size. The bores are .832 so the finished diameter of the pistons is .8305. I have used .0015 clearance on my piston to cylinder walls for years with good results so this is what I normally shoot for.
The next operation was to put the piston ring grooves in. A number of years ago I bought a tool set from the Arthur Warner Co. http://www.arwarnerco.com/ The one I purchased has a .375 holder and it has a set of cutoff and threading inserts made from high speed steel. They are held in place with a Torx screw much similar to carbide insert tooling. The cutoff blades in the set are .016, .032 and .062. Over the years I have ground my own tools but when you get this small it's hard to hand grind a .032 wide blade without getting too much side clearance on it. With these short blades being quite rigid I can make several incuts to arrive at the proper groove width.
I touched the end of the piston then using my readout went to each ring groove and cut them.
Once through with the grooves the piston was cut off.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on May 01, 2015, 02:24:16 AM
The pistons were now ready to have the wrist pin holes reamed (.250 dia. ) I set up a parallel and stop on the vise and drilled and reamed them. With the .250 hole already in the center I added an extra step to the reaming process to insure that the drill tracked straight. I first drilled with a center drill followed with a letter B drill. Once I broke into the center hole I then put a smaller center drill back in the chuck and went into the drilled hole to give myself a good pilot on the other side of the center hole. I then finished drilling with the B drill followed by the reamer.
In the past I have used a couple of different methods for retaining wrist pins. For hit and miss engine I have used a set screw coming from the bottom of the piston and sitting against a flat on the wrist pin.
For most of my multi-cylinder engines I like to have full floating pins so to keep them from moving laterally and possibly scuffing the cylinder wall I have drilled the pins then used Teflon buttons pressed into the ends of the pins.
On this engine I wanted to go with a more traditional securing method so I ordered some .25 'C' clips. Boy those things are small! The next step was how to machine the groove.
I decided to make a fixture block that would hold a .25 dowel pin onto which the piston would locate. To hold the piston in place I made a strap clamp and elongated the mounting holes so that the strap would float on the piston and not pull it off center while tightening.
The block was mounted in the 4 jaw chuck on my small lathe and the pin was indicated true. A piston was then mounted to the fixture. For a cutting tool I used a very small boring bar that I had picked up years ago. I ground the tip until it was square and .020 wide. I first ground the inside edge with a small abrasive wheel in my Dremel grinder and put a little bit of clearance on it. I then ground the outside until I got to .020.
I set up my dial indicator and touched the tool to the piston. I went in .070 and then turned the crossfeed until I just barely touched the inside wall. I set the dial to -0- and then turned on the lathe and cut .013 deep (.026 on the diameter).
Everything went well.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on May 01, 2015, 02:29:18 AM
Now how to get these tiny clips into the grooves. I have snap ring pliers but they certainly don't go down this small so after a little thought I sacrificed an old pair of tweezers. I filed and shaped the tips until they fit into the holes in the clips. I added a little undercut on the inside edge so that the ring would stay in place when they were squeezed closed.
I was wondering how many of these clips would end up somewhere on my shop floor but to my surprise the tweezers worked great.
Now just seven more to go.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: fumopuc on May 01, 2015, 05:11:10 AM
Hi George, thanks for showing your detailed piston making process.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Art K on May 01, 2015, 04:49:44 PM
George,
I have wanted to use that sort of c-clip to retain the piston pin but couldn't come up with a practical way to do it. That is a great way to do it that I'd never thought of.
Art
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: petertha on May 02, 2015, 03:42:43 AM
I added an extra step to the reaming process to insure that the drill tracked straight. I first drilled with a center drill followed with a letter B drill. Once I broke into the center hole I then put a smaller center drill back in the chuck and went into the drilled hole to give myself a good pilot on the other side of the center hole. I then finished drilling with the B drill followed by the reamer.

Very useful tip. I was concerned about exactly this issue on mine & only solution that came to mind was drilling/reaming the wrist pin hole through solid piston blank & leave the inner pocket milling for last. Your method is better.

What is your preferred piston alloy?

You mentioned piston/cylinder annular clearance & I suspect you are leaving your rings to last. But if you were faced with machining grooves to existing rings, do you have a rule of thumb from your experience about relative distance (clearance) between ring thickness & piston groove width? Same clearance question about groove OD vs. (closed) ring ID.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on May 02, 2015, 04:41:33 AM
Hi Peter,
I make my rings the same size as the groove in the piston. I then make up a cylindrical fixture with a boss that's a couple of thousands smaller than the I.D. of the rings and a couple of thousands thinner than the thickness of the rings. I then put the ring on the fixture and lap it on an oil stone or a sheet of very fine emery paper until it just fits inside the piston groove. In terms of a dimension I would say .00025-.0005. For the inside clearance, I.D. of ring to O.D. of groove I go for .005 which would be .010 on the diameter.
As far as material I try to use something that has a higher silicon content and for that there is 2024 with a silicon of .5 and 6061 which can range from .4-.8. They both have about the same machinability when compared to 2011.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Don1966 on May 02, 2015, 02:41:20 PM
George thanks again for showing your large collection of stones and burrs. The piston detail is great and putting eclips on such a small piston is amazing. Thanks from the continued education.


Don
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: b.lindsey on May 03, 2015, 01:32:09 AM
I used the same clips in the Briggs piston following the original design. They are small for sure. I think I had to buy 100...needed 2...shop gremlins got a few...but probably still have 90+ left. Nice update as always George.

Bill
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on May 03, 2015, 11:42:09 AM
Hi Bill,
Not as bad as you, I had to buy 50 but then again I need 16. So given the fact that a couple might pop off into neverland I should be covered.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on May 08, 2015, 12:55:05 AM
I wanted to continue making components for the block so that I could finish up the short block so after the pistons I started on the remainder of the valve train, the lifters. These are made from W-1 drill rod. The stock as it comes is usually +.0005-.00075 so the material had to be polished down to .2797 to fit the .281 reamed holes. The lifter will only have a tenth or two clearance but when you harden the drill rod it usually grows .001. After polishing the blanks were cut off and trimmed to length. The threaded hole for the adjusting bolt and lock set screw were drilled and tapped 3-48. I made sure the threads were nice and clean before hardening because I didn't want any small chips fusing to the threads while hardening. After hardening the thin layer of oxide was polished off and the lifters were matched to their best bores. I then drilled a piece of wood and marked it to keep all the lifters in order. The adjusting bolts are made from 303 stainless steel.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on May 08, 2015, 01:04:00 AM
At this point each of the lifters were inserted into their respective bores and the proper valve was inserted to set the clearance. The clearance will have to be set prior to assembling the springs and retainers. It seems like a pain to have to do it this way but with the adjusting bolt locking set screw down in the bore there is no way to do it after assembly. On full sized flathead engines with aftermarket adjustable lifters the adjusting bolts are a friction fit and a bar is inserted through the side of the lifter bore to hold it while turning the bolt. There was no way to make these a friction fit because of the possibility of snapping off the small bolt.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on May 08, 2015, 01:13:19 AM
Ok I have valves, lifters, springs, spring retainers and E clips. Now how on earth am I going to get them assembled in that tiny area? The first thing I had to do was make a valve spring compressor. It didn't need to be fancy like it's big brothers with a lever for quick action but just something to get the job done. I cut out a piece of .070 hot rolled plate that I had for the frame. Onto one end I silver soldered a 5-40 threaded boss for the screw. For the retainer end I made a separate piece much like the full sized units. It has a semi cup for the spring retainer to fit into and is bolted to the C frame. I originally just made a .100 slot to clear the valve stem but found out that it would be easier to make the slot wide enough to clear the adjusting bolt. It is also chamfered on the leading edge so that it would be easier to start. On the valve head end I made a brass cup with a slight countebore that would fit over the head of the valve and keep everything lined up while compressing the whole affair.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Don1966 on May 08, 2015, 01:23:07 AM
Cool George I like that!  :ThumbsUp:

Don  8)
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on May 08, 2015, 01:24:32 AM
Ok, grab a spring and insert it into the cavity while locating the upper end on the valve guide extension. Check. Now grab the spring with a pair of forceps and compress it enough to slide the spring retainer underneath and locate into the bottom end of the spring. Check, well kind of. Insert a valve through the guide and spring retainer. Check. Insert the valve spring compressor under the spring retainer and locate the upper end over the valve head. Check. Screw the knurled knob down and compress the assembly. Check. Now grab one of the minute E clips with a pair of bent tip forceps. Check. Snap the retainer in the groove on the valve stem. This gets another kind of check as the angle of the forceps and the working space don't allow much room for manipulation. After a couple of tries the clip is in place.
Now unscrew the compressor allowing the spring cap to seat over the clip. Check. Now turn the cam over and see what happens. Hallelujah! it works just like I planned.  ::) Now only 14 more to go.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Don1966 on May 08, 2015, 02:01:04 AM
Question George, did you make the springs or purchased them? The tool worked a treat............ :ThumbsUp:

Don

Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: b.lindsey on May 08, 2015, 02:49:35 AM
What a clever solution to a tricky problem George. Looks like it worked out just as you had planned too. Every update is a new learning experience...so thanks for that!!

Bill
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: jschoenly on May 08, 2015, 03:36:25 PM
Just like the originals... A real chore!  Good stuff!
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on June 13, 2015, 02:36:41 AM
It's been awhile since I posted anything on the build but I have been busy with so many other things. I built the tiny horizontal steam engine, I've attended a couple of engine shows, and the biggest thing is doing all the outside stuff. My sons always have something for me to do.
I just wasn't in the mood to cut cast iron and make rings so I started on some of the other parts, namely the carbs. I wanted them to resemble Stromberg 97's, the hot rodders choice, but to function as air bleed carbs. They are carved from a solid piece of aluminum like most of my parts. Being as there will be two carbs I made the bores a touch smaller than my 302 carb, .140 to be exact. The throttle barrel is .250 diameter.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: fumopuc on June 13, 2015, 07:11:02 PM
Hi George, fantastic work. They are looking brilliant.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: oneKone on June 15, 2015, 05:31:06 AM
Hi George,
I quick read through your thread and I'm amazed! Such great craftsmanship.
Looking forward to more posts.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Don1966 on June 16, 2015, 12:08:57 AM
Gee George, you slipped one by me. Thanks for the penny reference I would of never guested they we that small. Awesome buddy!

Don
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: b.lindsey on June 16, 2015, 12:40:29 AM
Nice to see an update George. I can sure relate to not having any shop time lately...any slower and I would be going backwards!!  Nice work on those carb bodies!!

Bill
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: ths on June 16, 2015, 03:44:30 AM
I saw the photos, and assumed that they were cnc'd. Then I saw the makers name. Very impressive, George. Cheers, Hugh.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Jo on June 16, 2015, 07:48:00 AM
Nice  :)

Thanks for the penny reference I would of never guested they we that small.

:headscratch: I have never seen a US 1 cent piece so I had to look up the size: 19mm (or 3/4" in old money) and 1.6mm thick ( 1/16"). That is the same size as our 5p coin rather than our 1p which is bigger.

Jo
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Bowtie41 on June 17, 2015, 04:37:14 AM
gbritnell,
I am just starting to follow along the build.Simply amazing and beautiful!After seeing how you did the main caps,I was curious why you didn't go ahead and be like the norm and recess the caps?No one will see it after assembly,and I would think it would have been less work than the hollow pins.Your thoughts?Thank You.
Kirk
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on June 17, 2015, 11:56:07 AM
Hi Kirk,
By recess I assume you mean the little notch cut into the top edge of the cap? That could be cut with no trouble but a fixture would have to be made to hold the inserts so that the 'notch' could be stamped into the edge. While it would be more prototypical I think the bronze inserts would crack when stamped. I have used the pin setup on most of my engines and it really isn't that much work.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on June 22, 2015, 11:55:10 PM
Well when you're the first one building from your own drawings there's bound to be changes and modifications. Such is the case with the carbs. When I had the CAD drawing in front of me the carbs looked just right but after all the machining I set them on the engine and they just didn't look right. Not having anything but photos to work from I scaled them to what I thought was appropriate.
Anyway I went back to the drawing board and increased the size by 25%. I told myself that now they looked just right. If after machining they didn't they were going to be used anyway.
I left the throttle barrel and venturi sizes the same but enlarged everything else.
It actually went a little quicker this time as I already knew all the machining steps.
The first two pictures are the new carbs. By themselves it's hard to tell what size they are but sitting next to the first one there is a noticeable difference.
Quite naturally the carb flange on the intake manifold needed to be modified. I couldn't use the existing holes to mount the flange as they were too close to the new ones so I added another set. The manifold was trimmed back and the new flange was made to slip over it. I had some stainless oval head 2-56 screws from another job so I mounted one in a holding bushing and trimmed the head down. The remaining Phillips recess was just deep enough to tighten them down.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on June 23, 2015, 12:00:14 AM
I'll have to see if I can add more picture later. I keep getting an internal server error.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: b.lindsey on June 23, 2015, 12:42:31 AM
That happens sometimes George, though I can't explain exactly why. Will look forward to seeing the additional pictures though as soon as you can post them.

Bill
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: petertha on June 23, 2015, 04:11:42 AM
You have real knack for functional jewelry, George!
I don't profess to know much about these carbs, but I'm interested in how you go about the throttle valve. It kind of looks like valve disc slides into an axle with a matching slot & fixed with screws. That must be shim stock & watch screws at this scale!
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on June 23, 2015, 12:33:45 PM
test
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on June 23, 2015, 07:24:47 PM
I'll try and repost one of my previous pictures and see what happens.
ok that worked so let's try renaming and posting the others.
Well renaming didn't work so I went back to Irfanview and resized and renamed them.
That didn't work so I don't know what to do now.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on June 23, 2015, 09:35:29 PM
George,  what can I say?  Spectacular and inspiring as always.  I was just pricing some Stromberg 97's the other day. I told my 79 year old dad how much they were and he about fainted.  Guess I threw away another several thousand dollars worth back in the day , he said. Promise you'll let me know before you start this puppy,  I may just take the time to be there.

Eric AKA Cletus
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: b.lindsey on June 24, 2015, 12:07:19 AM
George, I don't know what to tell you to try now. I will post a note in the mods area, hopefully Arnold or someone can help.

Bill

Edit: George, I have solicited help from the higher ups :)
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on June 24, 2015, 02:16:21 AM
Ok until this thing gets sorted out I'll upload my pictures via Photobucket.
To try and get caught up from where this latest update ended I'll post the two remaining pictures, one of the carb size comparison and one of the enlarged base added to the manifold.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v43/gbritnell/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/CARBURETOR/image010_zps9gr0hj1z.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/gbritnell/media/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/CARBURETOR/image010_zps9gr0hj1z.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v43/gbritnell/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/CARBURETOR/image007_zpsmgsgdbli.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/gbritnell/media/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/CARBURETOR/image007_zpsmgsgdbli.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on June 24, 2015, 02:21:08 AM
There are several traditional type air cleaners and inlet attachments for the 97 carbs. One is the plain helmet style, another has louvers in the sidewall and the third is a cast oval mouthed scoop. I opted for the plain helmet type.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v43/gbritnell/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/CARBURETOR/image001_zpspf9yhhfl.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/gbritnell/media/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/CARBURETOR/image001_zpspf9yhhfl.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v43/gbritnell/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/CARBURETOR/image005_zpslmrqqadt.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/gbritnell/media/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/CARBURETOR/image005_zpslmrqqadt.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on June 24, 2015, 02:23:17 AM
The last shots are of the carbs on the manifold and an overall picture of the engine with the carbs.
gbritnell
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v43/gbritnell/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/CARBURETOR/CARB%20VIEW%201_zps4m8iqf8z.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/gbritnell/media/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/CARBURETOR/CARB%20VIEW%201_zps4m8iqf8z.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v43/gbritnell/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/CARBURETOR/CARB%20VIEW%203_zpssrcskvrq.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/gbritnell/media/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/CARBURETOR/CARB%20VIEW%203_zpssrcskvrq.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v43/gbritnell/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/CARBURETOR/image006_zpskkyz7t9i.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/gbritnell/media/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/CARBURETOR/image006_zpskkyz7t9i.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Don1966 on June 24, 2015, 02:41:01 AM
Cool George! Those look awesome............ 8)


Don
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: fumopuc on June 24, 2015, 04:50:06 AM
Hi George, very impressive. The finish of your parts/engines is brilliant.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: stevehuckss396 on June 24, 2015, 08:13:33 PM
Looks Great George!  I like the photo bucket photos way better. I dont have to click on every one to enlarge them every single time.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: sshire on June 24, 2015, 11:50:38 PM
Speechless. Magnificent.

BTW
Another plus for the Photobucket pix. Easier than clicking on each one and they don't use MEM server space.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: b.lindsey on June 25, 2015, 12:11:55 AM
More beautiful work George, but being a fly in the ointment, I like the attached photos...or maybe I should say I just dislike dealing with photobucket, would rather reduce the photo size and attach them...originally I think I patterned that after some of your earlier posts. Just my preference, and sized properly, they don't have to be memory intensive. However you post though, the work represented is always excellent!!!

Bill
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Art K on June 25, 2015, 02:20:59 AM
George,
That looks fabulous, if I recall SIC has a build article on the Stromberg's.
Art
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on June 25, 2015, 03:10:08 AM
Hi Art,
Yes, SIC did print an article on building a Stromberg type carb. It was designed by the late Lee Root and published by Robert Washburn. As a matter of fact I have one built from that article. I had planned on using it on my 302 engine but the venturi was much too large for my engine. It now sits in my display case because it looks so neat.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: cfellows on June 25, 2015, 05:41:55 PM
I'm all out of superlatives, George.  Stunning work!

Chuck
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Mayhugh1 on June 25, 2015, 10:53:40 PM
George,
Magnificent work. Your engines and their construction belong in a book. Village Press are you listening?
Terry
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: ogaryd on June 26, 2015, 01:42:35 PM
       Hi George, I've been curious how the aluminum soldering went on your intake manifold. Was it a good experience? would you recommend the product and share the supplier?                                                      Thanks Gary
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on June 29, 2015, 02:24:45 AM
The aluminum soldering experiment went fine. I first tried it on a piece of 1/4" thick scrap and it worked fine. Next up was the front of the oil pan. When I made the drawings I accounted for the front main bearing but not the timing gear. As I slowly ground clearance for the gear I started to break through the fillet on the outside of the pan. This was a good first subject for the solder. It came out very good, not perfect but very good. The edges of the solder are well fused to the parent metal, no peeling. It built up quite well also. The only flaw is there are some small pin holes here and there. They are on the surface so when the pan is finished they should be almost unnoticeable. I haven't done the intake yet as I've been working on everything else.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on June 29, 2015, 02:28:24 AM
I need to finish the throttle barrels and needles for the carbs but I jumped from there to the generator and the mounting brackets. Attached (I hope) are pictures of some more parts and pieces.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Admiral_dk on June 29, 2015, 07:31:39 PM
What can I say - you continue to produce art  :NotWorthy:
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Roger B on June 29, 2015, 08:00:13 PM
Magnificent as ever  :praise2:  :praise2: I'm also following the aluminium soldering  :ThumbsUp: It looks to be a useful technique to have available.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Don1966 on June 30, 2015, 12:15:28 AM
Now if you wanted to make that alternator more realistic I would add some studs an a wire to it....... :lolb:
Just kidding George I love it. You sure put a lot of time into detailing your engine and it makes them stand out that much more. Awsome bud just awesome.............. :praise2:

Don :popcorn:
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on July 14, 2015, 01:06:08 AM
Before I get to the latest posting I would like to thank everyone for their comments. Don, Actually I do plan to put the electrical studs on the generator but that will be done in the finishing up process.
Since my last posting I have finished the fan and pulley assembly. The pulley like the generator has ball bearings in it. All of the pulleys have been machined for 1/8 O rings for the eventual fan belts.
The fan was constructed similar to the way I made the one for the inline six engine. The difference is that this fan is one piece while the one on the six engine was made in two pieces.
I cut out the shape by gluing a cutout of the drawing to a piece of 1/32 aluminum sheet. I left a little stock for filing. Once the filing was finished I put the center and bolt holes in. The next step was to make 2 piece fixture to press the stiffener rib into the blades. One half of the fixture has a .062 groove for a piece of drill rod while the other half has a groove cut with a .125 ball mill. Each blade was inserted into the fixture and the dies were pressed together forming the bead. The next step was to make to clamping bars, each with a half round slot to fit over the beading. These were notched .032 deep so that the blades would sit squarely in place. With the bars spaced .300 apart they were tightened and then twisted to create the 30 degree angle to the blades. To form the radius at the top edge of the blades I clamped a .75 hardened dowel against the blades and rolled the tip over.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on July 14, 2015, 01:19:27 AM
The distributor, which can be seen in the previous pictures, was also completed.
The body is machined from aluminum with the body being 1.05 diameter. This equates to about 3.50 diameter on the full sized distributor. There are bronze bushings at each end for the drill rod shaft to run in. At the top I have a disc with 8 windows to fire the ignition through the Hall timer. I have adopted this method over time and only have to use one magnet on a small angle plate inside the dizzy body. The cap is made from black Delrin while the rotor is made from Corian. The reason for the Corian is because it's a little harder than the Delrin and take threads a little better. The spark strip at the top is .010 phosphor bronze sheet sitting in a slot at the top and held in place but a 0-80 threaded button.
The gear I had cut earlier when I was making all the helical gears for the engine.
The hold down rods for the cap are .050 stainless steel wire. On the bottom of the distributor I have 2 notches ground so that the wires have a pocket to sit in.
gbritnell
 
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on July 14, 2015, 01:25:42 AM
I have one other photo which shows the small projection machined into the body of the distributor. This lines up with a notch cut in the Delrin cap for locating it.
You can see in the pictures that my Hall holder has an extension on it. I started making them this way to provide support for the leads coming out of the Hall transistor. I take a small piece of styrene plastic and file it to fit in the extension. This has 3 tiny holes drilled in it for the leads coming off the Hall. I slide this up against the Hall and solder the leads to the wired below it. When mounting the Hall I glue the styrene block in place and that way I don't have to place Cyano or epoxy directly on the Hall. There are some camps that say as the Cyano hardens it puts stresses on the Hall and can make it malfunction.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Don1966 on July 14, 2015, 01:51:28 AM
George the distributor came out great and thanks for the detail explanation. Could you show us the rotor with it's windows and the inside of the distributor with the rotor removed. Have you tried the cable I had sent you and header.?

About the use of cyano or epoxy on the hall.  I Don,t think it would create any harm to the sensor. First off the hall sensor is so small you would need a microscope to see it once out of the epoxy case and yes that's how small it is. Like most transistor they are mostly case and leads.

Regards Don
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on July 14, 2015, 03:09:03 AM
Hi Don,
I can't say I ever had a problem with the Halls being cyano glued to the mount but it was just something I read somewhere.
I have used the cable and it works fine but I didn't use the header because all my connections are Dean's so I just use them so everything is compatible.
I will take the dizzy apart tomorrow and takes some pics of the rotor and magnet mount.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: fumopuc on July 14, 2015, 05:21:52 AM
Hi George, thanks for showing all the details of your distributor . Great work. Like Don, I would like it also, to see the rotor and your magnet Installation.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Admiral_dk on July 14, 2015, 08:52:06 PM
I do not know if the materials has improved over time or not, but I do remember my first Boss tell me about his last project at "Technical School" electronic engineer line (he took it some five years before me) and he had build an FM receiver for his HiFi at home and had smartly used the first LED's available in Denmark as the scale indicator instead of the usual way of a string moving a pointer. He glued them in with the first generation 10 seconds glue and everybody in class admired the "show" .....  :pinkelephant: ..... just to watch them die in the sequence they where glued in a few minutes after completion  :toilet_claw:

The school asked the supplier of the LED's and the supplier of the glue and it was discovered that the clue did in fact go through the plastic used to house the LED chip before slowly setting ....

The story was told to us by the teachers to warn against just using clue without knowing the properties of the materials in question - so I knew the story when told by my Boss. I should think that the materials has improved - but ...?
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on July 15, 2015, 12:52:38 AM
Here are some closeups of the distributor pieces. The magnet is .125 dia. x .062 thick. It is pressed into the angle bracket. The angle bracket is slotted so that it can be adjusted for minimum clearance between it and the timing rotor. The angle bracket is held in place with a 0-80 screw. The timing rotor has 8 windows cut into it (one for each cylinder). It has 2 pie shaped window cut into the top so that the magnet holder can be adjusted. It has 2 windows just to balance the rotor. The holding screw is 1-72 thread and is drilled and tapped at an angle through the window. You can see a small indentation cut into the top edge of the one window to lessen the angle of the tapped hole. The rotor has to be made from steel otherwise the magnet won't turn the Hall on and off. Once the engine is running if I find that it doesn't seem to rev up even with the timing set and the carb adjusted it means there's not enough dwell on the coil so the windows can be enlarged. I have also found that the magnets will turn on the Hall when they are about 1/2 exposed by the window so the dwell is calculated by more thaThe spark rotor is made from Corian and has a .010 strip of phosphor bronze held in place with a 0-80 threaded button. When I have all the buttons put into the cap I put it on the distributor and turn the shaft by the gear. If I feel any interference I mount the spark rotor on a shaft and take a few thousands off of the button until the rotor spins freely. I probably end up with a .003-.005 air gap between the buttons in the cap and the spark rotor button. The picture of the Hall holder shows the cutout in the back side for the Hall transistor.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on July 15, 2015, 01:14:05 AM
All I can say is, "wow and I have a shirt with his autograph" Just jaw dropping amazing.

E
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Don1966 on July 15, 2015, 02:03:56 AM
George thanks so much for showing us the internals of a work of art. Did I say? ...............I like............ :praise2:

Don
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: fumopuc on July 15, 2015, 05:35:23 AM
Hi George, thanks for showing and explaining the details.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Kim on July 15, 2015, 04:22:11 PM
Just incredible George, that's all I can say...
I'm still impressed with how small it is when I see the pictures with your hand in them.
Kim
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: b.lindsey on July 15, 2015, 10:43:16 PM
Amazing George and at this scale all the moreso!!  Can't wait to see (and hear) this one running !!

Bill
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: ColH on July 16, 2015, 12:32:24 AM
Really enjoying this build George.  How long before it will be running?
Col
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on July 16, 2015, 02:18:20 AM
I'm trying to figure the hours to make the remaining parts but it's only a crude guess. I'd say somewhere around 200. With the question asked about when it will be finished and running it got me thinking about when I started on it and how many hours I have so far. I started on the drawings last August so it's almost a year and as far as hours it's got to be around 1800, which includes the drawings.
I'm hoping to have it running before the snow flies which in this part of the country could be anywhere from October to December.
Thanks everyone for checking in and commenting.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: ColH on July 16, 2015, 08:11:07 AM
Thanks George.  I know I am jumping the gun but whats next?  Maybe a rest :thinking:
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Roger B on July 21, 2015, 12:28:24 PM
Still following along  : :wine1:  Thank you for posting the deep details of the distributor  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on July 21, 2015, 12:55:02 PM
Hi ColH,
I would eventually like to get back on the chassis for the 302 engine, T-5 transmission and 9" differential to go into. With no ability to weld any longer (pacemaker) I have to come up with another plan.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on August 04, 2015, 07:32:43 PM
Gentlemen,
It's been awhile and with the nice weather the progress has slowed.
The latest progress is building the exhaust manifolds. When I built the V-twin I had made a larger single purpose tubing bender for .375 diameter tubing. The radii on the V-twin exhaust were 1.312 and for this engine I needed at least .900 radius. I made up a new die and shoe and tried it out on some .375 stainless tubing that I had laying around. The wall thickness is .050 and is too thick for this engine but I wanted to see how the bender would work. It took a little effort but it bent ok.
I then ordered some 316 grade, .375 O.D. stainless tubing with a .035 wall thickness.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on August 04, 2015, 07:39:33 PM
The main runner would have a 90 degree bend and extend out about 6 inches. Onto the main runner would be the three other curved sections of tubing. I made the flanges from 303 stainless steel. The tubes exit the block at a 25 degree angle so after bending the main runner I set it up in the mill at that angle and cut it off with a slitting saw. This guaranteed that the angled face would be parallel to the top of the block. The tubes and flanges would be silver soldered in place so to facilitate assembly a fixture had to be made that would hold the main runner at the proper angle.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Dave Otto on August 04, 2015, 07:44:56 PM
Very nice George,

It will be fun to watch the rest of the fabrication and assembly of the headers.

Dave
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: b.lindsey on August 04, 2015, 07:46:20 PM
OH nice George!! I can see where the fixture would be a huge help in the process too. How did you cut the holes in the main tube as shown in the last picture?

Bill
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: petertha on August 04, 2015, 07:51:18 PM
*** sorry, the pics arrived while I was typing ***

Nice jig. I'm very interested in your tubing technique & results. My radial design has similar diameter/bend radii & seems like every web link I found on that subject showed a trash bin full of cracked or kinked tubes from more accomplished machinists than me, trying various tube fill media & other metal coaxing sorcery. I pretty much resigned myself to brake line & crossing my fingers at that (88% copper, 9% nickel).

So looking forward to any tips/learning's, particularly SS. Another question (and maybe you'll get to this) if you have to attach flanges what is your solder/braze/weld method?

Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on August 04, 2015, 07:59:45 PM
Peter,
I'm using 316 stainless tubing, annealed as delivered. As I mentioned I'm using a .900 radius. How much smaller it would safely go I don't know. I didn't use any fill material this time. When I made the pipes for the V-twin I used the low melting alloy called Cerro. The joints will all be silver soldered/brazed with 56% silver solder.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on August 04, 2015, 08:01:43 PM
Now I'm really upset. I typed out several paragraphs of explanations with accompanying pictures and when I hit the post button it gave me that damn error message again.  :censored:
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on August 04, 2015, 08:20:54 PM
I guess I'll have to resort to Photobucket again.
To make the small tubes I bend up some pieces and then sawed them off so the top of the radius was at right angles to the straight part of the tube. I then used a .312 burr to rough the contour that would fit the main runner. This was followed with a .375 mounted stone and some filing to get a nice fit. There is no way to make a full radius because the outer edges get too thin so there will be a small step where the two pipes meet. It fills with silver solder so it's not that noticeable. Once the radii were fitted I used the assembly jig to give myself a saw line that would match the flange angle. With constant filing and fitting I got a nice match of the pipe to the flange. The only problem is that being as the fit point on the main runner and the flange center are offset the small tubes kept sliding out of place. I certainly didn't want this when soldering so I had to devise a way to hold the pipes in place. I settled on making some small copper rings from a piece of old electrical wire. After the ring was formed it was squeezed closed a tiny bit so it would hold tight on the main pipe. Each of the small pipes were put in place along with the rings and it seemed to work out ok.
The small pipes would be soldered to the flange first so then the copper rings could be slid out of the way to provide access for soldering the pipe to pipe joint.
All the joints were fluxed and the fixture was moved out to the garage for soldering/brazing with 56% silver solder.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v43/gbritnell/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/EXHAUST%20MANIFOLD/IMG_5186_zpsr3t23cud.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/gbritnell/media/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/EXHAUST%20MANIFOLD/IMG_5186_zpsr3t23cud.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v43/gbritnell/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/EXHAUST%20MANIFOLD/IMG_5189_zpsxh8syszv.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/gbritnell/media/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/EXHAUST%20MANIFOLD/IMG_5189_zpsxh8syszv.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v43/gbritnell/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/EXHAUST%20MANIFOLD/IMG_5193_zpsmnkvzdf5.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/gbritnell/media/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/EXHAUST%20MANIFOLD/IMG_5193_zpsmnkvzdf5.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on August 04, 2015, 08:32:54 PM
All of the joints except one came out good. The biggest problem is when the main runner was soldered to it's flange it shifted down a little which caused the small pipes to move outward a little. Not enough to hurt anything but not what I wanted. For the next pipe I'll solder the main runner to it's flange and then fit all the small pipes afterward.
I had to do a little machining before I could boil off the flux and clean up the assembly. Three of the stainless screws got soldered to the flange so they had to have the heads milled off.
Once the part was removed from the soldering fixture I cleaned up all the joints. I then set up my mini oxycetylene torch to touch up the one joint that was shy of solder.
With everything cleaned and polished I then had to fit the flanges to the top of the block and into the pockets between the intake manifold flanges. No matter how meticulous you are with your fixturing and soldering when things are heated and cooled there's going to be some warpage. The flanges stayed flat to each other but the spacing changed a little. With some filing on the edges of the flanges and a slight elongation of the outer sets of holes the manifold dropped into place.
One more to go!
gbritnell
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v43/gbritnell/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/EXHAUST%20MANIFOLD/IMG_5204_zpsxiuibjpn.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/gbritnell/media/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/EXHAUST%20MANIFOLD/IMG_5204_zpsxiuibjpn.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v43/gbritnell/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/EXHAUST%20MANIFOLD/IMG_5207_zpsjtolkcsy.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/gbritnell/media/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/EXHAUST%20MANIFOLD/IMG_5207_zpsjtolkcsy.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v43/gbritnell/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/EXHAUST%20MANIFOLD/IMG_5210_zpsuyivequ5.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/gbritnell/media/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/EXHAUST%20MANIFOLD/IMG_5210_zpsuyivequ5.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v43/gbritnell/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/EXHAUST%20MANIFOLD/IMG_5213_zpsr5ehrawg.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/gbritnell/media/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/EXHAUST%20MANIFOLD/IMG_5213_zpsr5ehrawg.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v43/gbritnell/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/EXHAUST%20MANIFOLD/IMG_5218_zps9yi3lqfx.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/gbritnell/media/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/EXHAUST%20MANIFOLD/IMG_5218_zps9yi3lqfx.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on August 04, 2015, 08:36:05 PM
As you can see in the one picture I also finished up the water outlets for both heads.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: b.lindsey on August 04, 2015, 08:44:25 PM
Sorry again for the picture posting problem George so thanks for giving it another go with photobucket. The tubing sure looks perfect from the pictures and the overall pictures are just amazing. What a beautiful engine....wow!!!

Bill
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Don1966 on August 04, 2015, 09:24:05 PM
That engine is really turning out to be a master piece. I am glad I gad a chance to hold it in my hands and get to talk to you in person George. Your my hero and I still want to grow up to be like you. Just some awesome craftsmanship.  :praise2: did I say .......I like.................  :Love:


Don
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: petertha on August 05, 2015, 03:50:44 AM
Looks awesome George.
- if you happen to have a sketch of your bender, I'd love to see it
- can you please brand name spec your solder, I'd like to replicate your recipe as much as possible
- what kind of mini OA torch do you use for jobs like this?
- and to confirm, you didn't need to heat the tubes mid way (anneal?)
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on August 05, 2015, 06:51:31 PM
There is just nothing else that can be said of the quality of craftsmanship,  it's pretty much for the lack of a better word : PHENOMENAL.  Just how much would you charge someone,  if they brought their own stool, to watch this magic happen for a half of a day? Hey,  I'll clean the machines  :lolb:..

Eric
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on August 05, 2015, 07:58:07 PM
Eric,
If you weren't so far away my friend you could stop in any time and you wouldn't even have to clean the machines. It's too bad a lot of the fellows that I've met over the years are so widely scattered otherwise we could have a get together for talk and some spirits.
Thanks for watching.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on August 05, 2015, 08:06:49 PM
Peter,
Here's some answers to your questions.
This is the silver solder and flux that I use. The solder is 56% silver.
For soldering this pipe assembly I actually used my regular torch with a small tip because I didn't know if I could get enough heat from the small one. Once I finished soldering I noticed that I had a couple of places where the solder hadn't flowed all the way around so I then used my small torch to touch them up. It did produce enough heat for that job but I was concerned that with all the extra material of the fixture absorbing heat that the little one might not be adequate.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on August 05, 2015, 08:13:18 PM
Peter,
I thought I had a drawing of the larger tubing bender but I couldn't find it so tomorrow I will measure everything, make a sketch and post it.
As far as bending the tubing, I had no trouble. Here's the link to where I purchased it.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004XN8RP0/ref=s9_psimh_gw_p328_d8_i3?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=desktop-1&pf_rd_r=0G7QQTX4Y2P8ARN11W9M&pf_rd_t=36701&pf_rd_p=2079475242&pf_rd_i=desktop
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on August 05, 2015, 08:28:06 PM
Here are some additional pictures of the process of fitting the small tubes to the main runner.
First a short piece of tubing was bent and cut off.
Using a square I put a line on the tube and sawed it off.
I then used a .312 carbide burr to start the recess and finished it off using a .375 mounted stone in my Dremel grinder. The recess was adjusted until the short pipe sat at right angles to the main runner.
The short tube was then held in place against the main runner and a line was drawn across the tube using the flange as a guide.
The tube was then sawed to the line leaving it a little heavy. Using my disc sander and a file I slowly fitted the small pipe to the mounting flange.
Once all the tubes were fitted I held them in place and drew a line around the outside onto the main runner. The small tube was removed and another line was drawn inside of the first line leaving enough stock for the wall thickness of the tubing. This was opened up with a conical carbide burr. Once the hole was opened I removed the burr from around the inside edge.
The small tubes were then put in place using the copper rings to keep them aligned.
The parts were then soldered together.
gbritell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: b.lindsey on August 06, 2015, 12:57:43 AM
Thanks for the additional pictures and description of the process. I love my little torch, but as you say, its only good for appropriate sized parts. Nothing like it though when the job fits. Still watching and admiring!!

Bill
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: steamer on August 06, 2015, 01:03:21 PM
Need Gobsmacked emoticon......I'm lost for words at the moment................


Beautiful George.....Next time you and crew are around, I'm buying!....just sayin.

Dave
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on August 06, 2015, 05:58:20 PM
Peter,
As promised here's the last answer to your questions. This is the tubing bender. It's a simplified version but I only needed it to bend 3/8ths tubing. The smaller bender I drew up will do up to 5/16ths.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: petertha on August 06, 2015, 07:40:55 PM
Thanks so much for the background info & tubing bender drawing, George.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on August 15, 2015, 02:37:03 AM
The other header pipe is finished! You know on a certain project there's a job that on the outside it doesn't seem like it's all that hard to do but when you get into it there are little things that irritate the heck out of you. I think the headers were one of those jobs. First of all working with stainless then second trying to hold all those pieces in alignment while silver soldering all the while knowing that once heat is applied and things begin to melt all kinds of nasty things can happen which will generally ruin the whole job and therefore it will have to be started over. Luckily the worst that happened was a little warping on one pipe. There was a slight gradual misalignment of the pipes to flanges but that won't hurt a thing.
The final part on the top of the engine is the fuel pump. While not really there for pumping fuel it with the generator and starter are there to add a touch of realism to the engine.
As much as I like to whittle away at aluminum I just couldn't bring myself to create the fuel pump in that manner so I made a bunch of individual parts and screwed them together. The main body of the pump has the flange screwed to it. The pump part has the inlet tube and ribs that hold the wires for the sediment bowl screwed together. This took quite awhile to fit everything but nowhere near as long as it  would have taken to carve it from solid. The sediment bowl was cut from the bottom of a 12mm test tube.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on August 15, 2015, 02:39:34 AM
And finally some overall pictures of the engine to this point.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Art K on August 15, 2015, 03:37:45 AM
George,
I don't know what to say but WOW.
Art
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: sbwhart on August 15, 2015, 06:14:11 AM
George,
I don't know what to say but WOW.
Art

Make that a double WOW.

Exceptional work George

Stew
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: fumopuc on August 15, 2015, 06:28:13 AM
Hi George, it is beautiful.
My first impression of the fuel / water separator position was, that it is very close to the exhaust pipe, but I am sure now that is optical only.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Roger B on August 15, 2015, 07:34:26 AM
Beautiful  :praise2:  :praise2:
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Mayhugh1 on August 15, 2015, 08:06:38 AM
George,
Your filing puts my 3D g-code to shame. I don't think more realistic looking parts could be made with CNC.  - Terrt
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Don1966 on August 15, 2015, 03:24:48 PM
George I do know that you have just as much hand works as you have machine work on this engine. Your the master craftsman my friend. Everything is just awesome............... :praise2:


Don
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on August 20, 2015, 12:02:24 AM
I'm getting down to the last remaining parts on the engine.
Once I found the one-way bearing as a starting device I have put it on all my engines. The small engines I use a .375 diameter and the bigger engines I use a .500 diameter bearing. Rather than just mount a disc to the flywheel and to go along with all the other, "it looks like starter, or generator", I opted to make what looks like a clutch pressure plate. It's made in two pieces, the outer housing and the disc with the boss for the starter bearing. The outer housing pinches the disc against the flywheel by .002 but just to be sure it doesn't spin under load I used three 5-40 bolts that are positioned like the trunnion bolts on the full sized clutch.
The second set of pictures are of the dipstick flange, tube and stick. I'm always saving bits and pieces for possible use in my model work and I happened to have some stainless steel strips that go down the side of a windshield wiper blade. They are kind of like a spring steel but can be machined to the needed width. I cut a strip .104 wide, rolled the top and then machined a cap to go onto the top of the tube. The cap was drilled .106 diameter and then counter bored .156 diameter to go over the tube. The outside diameter has a small step at the top which I slotted with a slitting saw. This allowed the strip to slide through. I then positioned it and silver soldered it in place.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Don1966 on August 20, 2015, 12:28:06 AM
George i just can express how much I would like to set an watch your work. I just can't get enough of how your engines turn out. I will have to take a vacation one day and go see you. That dip stick is superb buddy and so realistic.  :praise2:  Ow! And did I say I like...................................... :praise2:

 :drinking-41:
Don
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: b.lindsey on August 20, 2015, 12:52:22 AM
George, am I assuming correctly that there will be a bell housing covering this clutch assembly. Beautiful work as always!!

Bill
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: cfellows on August 20, 2015, 01:19:37 AM
Hey George, great work.  By the way, what you can tell us about the little box of files in the first picture?  What kind are they and where does one find them?

Thx...
Chuck
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Dave Otto on August 20, 2015, 01:31:31 AM
Very nice work George!

I always follow along and enjoy the updates to your wonderful projects.

Dave
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on August 20, 2015, 01:45:00 AM
Hi Chuck,
Actually the container is one of those plastic tubes that tools come in. One half slips over the other. The files are rifflers. Over the years I have purchased about 15 of them. I try to limit the styles to exactly what I need because they're about $18.00 each, or at least the last time I bought some. We have a tool and die supply house in town and they carry files, burrs, mounted stones and the like so I can usually buy right off the shelf.
When making complex shapes it's the only way to file down into corners.
Bill,
Yes they're is a bell housing to cover the clutch and flywheel. You can see the corner of it to the right in the first picture.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on August 30, 2015, 07:19:01 PM
 It's time to start making piston rings. For that I use cast iron, Durabar, continuous cast, schedule 40, there are quite a few different names for this material. It's a fine grained cast iron which cuts with nice sharp edges.

 Many years ago when I first got into making my own piston rings I followed the Trimble method which was published in Strictly I.C. magazine. I had tried some other methods but found this gave the most consistent results.

 The cast iron stock is first bored to the inside diameter of the rings. I find that doing the inside first leaves the stock heavier so that I don't get the 'ringing/ vibration' by doing the outside first. The outside is then finished to size. I made a small tool holder that fits inside my QC holders. This is made to hold a piece of carbide cutoff tool. About .25 high and .065 wide. I touch the tool to the face of the stock and set my readout to -0-. I then move over the ring width, in my case if was .035, plus the tool width, plus .001. I cut the first ring off and mike it and then make any adjustments to get the rings to come out plus .001-.002.

I need 16 compression rings and 8 oil rings so I made 22 compression rings and 14 oil rings.


Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on August 30, 2015, 07:30:12 PM
 Once I have the rings made I use a very fine half round file and deburr the inside edges. The outside corners get deburred with a diamond honing stick. I go around each ring just enough to see a break on the edges.

 The next step is to hone them to the proper thickness. I turn up  a mandrel with a counterbore that the rings will fit into. The depth is exactly to the finished thickness of the rings. The rings are then inserted into the mandrel and rubbed on a fine emery cloth until they are the proper thickness. I make my rings .001 thinner than the groove in the piston.

 The next step is to cleave or break the ring. Here again I made up the fixture that was in the original publication. For larger rings some fellows snap them with their fingers, personally I have never tried it and certainly with these little rings I only use the fixture. The two cleavers are made from a high speed lathe tool and ground so that the apexes are exactly in line. The center slot is milled shallower than the cleaver slots which enables you to set the ring at the center line. The screw is tightened and the rings snap apart. 
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on August 30, 2015, 07:38:00 PM
 The break is quite square.

 The oil rings needed to be slotted and drilled before cleaving. I didn't want to do this operation when I was making the rings because the extra step adds measurement issues when trying to hold the proper thickness. I turned up another mandrel in my small lathe. I had a piece of stock in my junk box that already had a tapped hole in it so that's what I used. A boss was turned to mount the ring on and was faced off so that the projection was .003 shorter than the width of the rings. I then made a cap to hole them in place.  Using a hand ground high speed lathe tool (.029 wide) I cut the grooves into the oil rings.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on August 30, 2015, 07:47:43 PM
o.k. Here we go with the "internal server error message again".
I'll try once more but this is getting to be monotonous.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Don1966 on August 30, 2015, 07:55:26 PM
That is awesome how you did those rings George. I just learned a lot since I know nothing about making rings. I really appreciate you taking the time to show us how you do things.

 :cheers:

Don
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: fumopuc on August 30, 2015, 08:01:58 PM
Hi George, I agree with all what Don mentioned.  So please try again later.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Art K on August 31, 2015, 02:29:32 AM
George,
I'm one of the many that have never made my own piston rings. I've read the Trimble method but have never tried it. One day I imagine that I'll try it. And as always thanks for your build notes, from which I always learn something.
Art
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on September 01, 2015, 01:16:58 AM
Well I can't get  the pictures to load so I'm back to Photobucket.

 The next step was to drill the oil drain back holes in the rings. I used the mandrel that I had made for slotting them and chucked and trued it in my dividing head.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v43/gbritnell/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/PISTON%20RINGS/IMG_5418_zpsimsghbor.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/gbritnell/media/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/PISTON%20RINGS/IMG_5418_zpsimsghbor.jpg.html)

 The slot is .030 wide so I used a #70 drill (.028 dia.) I put the drill on center and let the walls of the slot support it. I don't have a center drill that small. There are 14 holes in the rings and they have about .004 clearance between the back of the ring and the wall of the groove. This should be enough to channel the oil back through the piston.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v43/gbritnell/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/PISTON%20RINGS/IMG_5424_zpsryrt8dyz.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/gbritnell/media/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/PISTON%20RINGS/IMG_5424_zpsryrt8dyz.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v43/gbritnell/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/PISTON%20RINGS/IMG_5427_zpsqlohj8ck.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/gbritnell/media/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/PISTON%20RINGS/IMG_5427_zpsqlohj8ck.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: b.lindsey on September 01, 2015, 01:22:45 AM
George, again I am sorry about the picture posting problems. I have passed on your concerns again (and those of others) to the admins. Hopefully some resolution can be found for this frustrating though random issue. Beautiful rings though!!

Bill
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: steamer on September 01, 2015, 01:24:53 AM
Beautiful work as always George!   


Sorry about the picture post issue.

Dave
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on September 01, 2015, 01:26:22 AM
 With all the oil holes drilled I mounted the rings in the cleaving tool and broke them apart.

 The next process would be heat treating the rings. For this operation a fixture is needed. I don't have George Trimble's original article any longer but I have made enough rings that I kind of know where I'm going. I have found that making small rings, .750 and smaller that they don't need much of a gap. By that I mean much of an initial spacing prior to heat treating. If you make them too wide when installed in the cylinder they put too much pressure on the wall. Multiply this by 24 rings and it adds up to a lot of friction. Because the oil rings are almost twice as wide as the compression rings I made the fixture with two different sized dowels to hold the rings open, .062 for the oil rings and .078 for the compression rings.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v43/gbritnell/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/PISTON%20RINGS/IMG_5436_zpsqtu7s94b.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/gbritnell/media/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/PISTON%20RINGS/IMG_5436_zpsqtu7s94b.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v43/gbritnell/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/PISTON%20RINGS/IMG_5439_zpsdqllpabb.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/gbritnell/media/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/PISTON%20RINGS/IMG_5439_zpsdqllpabb.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v43/gbritnell/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/PISTON%20RINGS/IMG_5442_zpsszfhvqpq.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/gbritnell/media/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/PISTON%20RINGS/IMG_5442_zpsszfhvqpq.jpg.html)



Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on September 01, 2015, 01:30:24 AM
The first to get heat treated are the oil rings. I cleaned the fixture and inserted the .078 rod. The rings were then slipped over the rod and down to the shoulder on the fixture. The amount of oil and compression rings added up to a different height so I made the fixture cap with a deep enough counterbore to accommodate both stacks. The cap was put on and the screw tightened.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v43/gbritnell/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/PISTON%20RINGS/IMG_5448_zpsb1cwvefq.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/gbritnell/media/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/PISTON%20RINGS/IMG_5448_zpsb1cwvefq.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v43/gbritnell/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/PISTON%20RINGS/IMG_5457_zps5d4umzme.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/gbritnell/media/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/PISTON%20RINGS/IMG_5457_zps5d4umzme.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v43/gbritnell/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/PISTON%20RINGS/IMG_5460_zpscur2aifh.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/gbritnell/media/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/PISTON%20RINGS/IMG_5460_zpscur2aifh.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on September 01, 2015, 01:40:41 AM
 If a person has a kiln then the next step can be done one of two ways. The rings need to be protected when heated so that a scale doesn't form. To do that they can be wrapped in stainless foil or because I don't have a kiln I coat them with a Boron powder. For these small rings and fixture I use 2 propane torches. They provide enough heat for the job. With larger rings and fixture one should probably use an oxy-cetylene torch.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v43/gbritnell/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/PISTON%20RINGS/IMG_5463_zpsizkq4mfi.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/gbritnell/media/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/PISTON%20RINGS/IMG_5463_zpsizkq4mfi.jpg.html)

 The fixture is brought up to about 500 degrees or until everything starts to turn blue. Being careful with handling and avoiding breathing the fumes I use a plastic spoon to coat the fixture. The Boron powder is extremely fine and as it's sprinkled onto the fixture is starts to bubble and smoke. Using some pliers I rotated the fixture to get a nice coat on everything. This is what it looks like when it has melted uniformly on the fixture.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v43/gbritnell/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/PISTON%20RINGS/IMG_5466_zps4ujf7khg.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/gbritnell/media/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/PISTON%20RINGS/IMG_5466_zps4ujf7khg.jpg.html)

 
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Don1966 on September 01, 2015, 01:49:18 AM
That is too cool George. Love all the photos gives a perfect lesson on how it's done. Much appreciated my friend.

Don
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on September 01, 2015, 01:52:14 AM
 Now it's time to bring it up to annealing temperature. I originally followed Trimble's method to the letter when I first started making rings but as I practiced and read about the process there seems to be some dissension about what temperature to use. It seems like Trimble's temperature is too high but when I started out it seemed to work ok.
When I made the fixture I counterbored the inside of it so I wouldn't have to heat as much metal and I could get the torch up inside to evenly heat everything. I heat until everything is a dull red, 1000-1100 degrees? If it doesn't work you can always redo it.

 Once the fixture has been heated it is then allowed to cool on it's own. I have an old glass cooking pot that I boil water in for cleaning flux after silver soldering and also for removing the heated Boron material. The fixture is immersed in the boiling water and rolled around until all the scale it removed. It's hard to believe but the boiling water takes it all off.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v43/gbritnell/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/PISTON%20RINGS/IMG_5469_zpsoygehyri.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/gbritnell/media/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/PISTON%20RINGS/IMG_5469_zpsoygehyri.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v43/gbritnell/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/PISTON%20RINGS/IMG_5471_zpst5x45lmj.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/gbritnell/media/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/PISTON%20RINGS/IMG_5471_zpst5x45lmj.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v43/gbritnell/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/PISTON%20RINGS/IMG_5474_zps0o2hqtia.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/gbritnell/media/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/PISTON%20RINGS/IMG_5474_zps0o2hqtia.jpg.html)

 This is the fixture after boiling. The oil rings were removed and everything was cleaned up for the comprssion rings.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on September 01, 2015, 01:55:41 AM
The compression rings were installed with the .078 rod and the process was repeated.
You can see in the following pictures that both the oil and compression rings have taken a set. Had then not been heated enough they would have sprung back to their original shape when removed from the fixture.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v43/gbritnell/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/PISTON%20RINGS/IMG_5479_zpsm0te0fct.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/gbritnell/media/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/PISTON%20RINGS/IMG_5479_zpsm0te0fct.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v43/gbritnell/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/PISTON%20RINGS/IMG_5482_zpsyapnibc7.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/gbritnell/media/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/PISTON%20RINGS/IMG_5482_zpsyapnibc7.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v43/gbritnell/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/PISTON%20RINGS/IMG_5487_zpsa7vbmho1.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/gbritnell/media/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/PISTON%20RINGS/IMG_5487_zpsa7vbmho1.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v43/gbritnell/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/PISTON%20RINGS/IMG_5488_zps6m0eqqxy.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/gbritnell/media/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/PISTON%20RINGS/IMG_5488_zps6m0eqqxy.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: b.lindsey on September 01, 2015, 01:57:02 AM
Looking at that picture with the boron coating all over it looks horrendous to clean. Pretty neat that just boiling water does it.

Bill
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on September 01, 2015, 02:03:42 AM
 When the rings are first made and snapped open one would think that they would then fit in the bore, as they are made size for size, but such is not the case. Each ring requires a small amount of filing on the end gaps to get the rings into the bores. For these rings I try to shoot for .002 end gap but one extra stroke on the file and sometimes you end up with .003. With three rings on the piston and installed with the gaps at 120 degrees they seal very well.
I have never made oil rings this small before so it's going to be a learning experience when installing them.

 With automotive and motorcycle rings one just takes the ring, opens it and slides it down over the piston, or you can use and ring expander. With these little suckers you have to very carefully finesse them into place. The hardest one is the lower compression ring because you have to get it past the first groove.

gbritnell
 
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: b.lindsey on September 01, 2015, 02:07:55 AM
Could it be slid into place from the bottom of the piston instead, thus avoiding the upper groove? Just curious.

Bill
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on September 01, 2015, 02:15:53 AM
Hi Bill,
Then I'd still have to get it over the oil groove.
George
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: b.lindsey on September 01, 2015, 02:24:30 AM
I misunderstood, I thought you meant the oil ring, I got it now.

Bill
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on September 01, 2015, 03:49:11 AM
My mistake Bill. I meant the lower compression ring. I changed the text.
George
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: petertha on September 01, 2015, 05:41:25 AM
Thanks for sharing the pictures & step-by-step details, George!

- where do you buy Durabar?

- re the non-scaling compound you show, one thing I'm not clear on. Once the part is up to 500F temp & coated like in your pic, is the procedure to immediately carry straight on heating to elevated target temperature? (ie. if you were to let the coated assembly cool a bit for whatever reason, that would somehow compromise the coating protection?)
- does the coating layer basically stay put in that glossy state (doesn't tend to flow away)
http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/metal-prep-coloring/heat-treating-accessories/non-scaling-compound-prod1122.aspx

- do you happen to know what the difference is between Non Scaling Compound (what you used) & Brownell ATP-641 = Anti-Scaling Compound? I got the impression with this stuff you coat it at ambient or only slightly warmed, then take it right up to elevated target temp. Some of the knife maker types use this in full hardening/quenching procedure
http://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/metal-prep-coloring/heat-treating-accessories/anti-scale-coating-prod23076.aspx
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: fumopuc on September 01, 2015, 06:25:09 AM
Hi George, thanks for showing your ring making process. I like your fixture. Just checked it in the net, this Brownwells non scaling compund is also available in Germany.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on September 01, 2015, 12:41:32 PM
Hi Peter,
First of all here is a description of Durabar.
http://www.matweb.com/search/datasheettext.aspx?matguid=05f0795918314796a689d72341c96e90

As Durabar is a trade name I purchase a comparable product from this supplier.
http://www.speedymetals.com/c-8388-round.aspx

I'm sure it is available world wide.

When I use the anti-scaling powder I heat the part until it turns blue, as I don't have any good way of determining the actual heat. It has to be hot enough so that when the powder is put on it will start to melt. I have never interrupted the process by letting the part cool but once coated it's a glass like coating so I don't think it would affect anything. I'm not familiar with the other product. When I got into making my own rings many years ago this was the only product that Brownell's had listed. The quantity that I got will last me all of my life and longer. To coat the ring fixture for this project only took about 3 or 4 tablespoons. I use a little extra to cover the inside of the fixture also.

If you go to the following link there is some very useful information on making rings and the different processes that can be used.
http://www.modelenginenews.org/techniques/piston_rings.html

gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: steamer on September 01, 2015, 01:27:35 PM
Is the anti scaling powder boric acid?

Dave
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on September 01, 2015, 04:42:56 PM
Hi Dave,
All I know is what it says on the label. It contains Boron and to take precautions when using it. I did a search and found many applications but not a particular content.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on September 01, 2015, 05:16:58 PM
Great work as always George. You mentioned not having any way to check temps and I remember some temp indicating crayons we used back in my construction days. I dug way back in the old gray matter and remembered the name and here is their link (I think)http://www.tempil.com/tempilstik/. They worked great. We used them when we sweated couplings onto motors and pump shafts. I still have a few somewhere, I'll check the temps.

Eric A.K.A Cletus
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: steamer on September 01, 2015, 05:56:00 PM
Hi Dave,
All I know is what it says on the label. It contains Boron and to take precautions when using it. I did a search and found many applications but not a particular content.
gbritnell

Not  criticism at all George.    Boric acid has been used for many years as a anti scaling flux.   It's also used as a roach killer.   Apparently, if ingested by the roach, it causes severe dehydration and kills the roach.   We also use it as a hand cleaner....I'm sure you have used it in you time, Boraxo.   ( you know the 20 mule team stuff)

I remember using it as a soldering flux in shop class in school far to many years ago to mention

W.R. Smith uses Boric acid labeled as roach killer to coat tools with prior to heat treating to prevent scale.

My question is just a result of me being curious.      Your engine is beautiful bud!!!! keep it coming I love reading about it, I'm just not eloquent enough to form a compliment that would do it justice!!!

 :NotWorthy: :NotWorthy: :NotWorthy: :NotWorthy:

Dave
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: petertha on September 03, 2015, 05:42:12 AM
Hi Peter, As Durabar is a trade name I purchase a comparable product from this supplier.
http://www.speedymetals.com/c-8388-round.aspx

Ah, perfect! I noticed in post #281 you mentioned 'class 40' cast iron for the liners from the same supplier, so I thought there was some conscious intent to make the liners from that but the rings from another (Durabar) for some reason. But I think you are saying exact same stuff for both. If so, good to know. I bought the same material for my liner from Speedy because Durabar brand seems harder to source, at least in sizes I can consume.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: ogaryd on September 04, 2015, 10:27:42 PM
Hi George,
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: ogaryd on September 04, 2015, 10:36:34 PM
Hi George,  Do you think a split Delron filler for the first ring groove may aid in installing the second compression ring?                                                       Gary                                                                                 
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on September 04, 2015, 11:46:54 PM
Hi Gary,
The next time I install rings I'll give it a try.
Thanks,
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on September 12, 2015, 06:53:25 PM
Gentlemen,
I figured it was time for an update on the engine. I only have two large parts left to complete, the radiator and the base along with some small pieces, carb parts, linkages, brackets etc.
The engine was started in August of last year and within a couple of months should see completion.
The piston rings were installed and the engine was run on the lathe for an hour to loosen things up. I filled the oil pan with a light oil while the engine was turning over and I pulled one of the plugs from the back of the block to check for oil flow, the pump works great. I did run into a problem with the oil rings but I'll report on that separately.
gbritnell
bu57yj7ZSqU
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Don1966 on September 12, 2015, 11:07:18 PM
George it's great to see an update on this master piece. I will be waiting for the rest of the updates and I do hope you show the construction of the radiator. This is just amazing and you my friend are a true craftsman and artist......... :praise2:

Don
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: fumopuc on September 13, 2015, 05:31:56 AM
Hi George, great to see your Flathead V8 like it is at the moment. Thanks for the video, explanation and comments to the different components of the engine. Waiting for your oil ring story. I assume, that may be during the running in process at the lathe, the oil rings have removed to much oil from the liners, so it was necessary to feed the cylinders with oil from the top through the spark plug holes ?
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: ogaryd on September 13, 2015, 05:38:57 PM
George. I really enjoy reading your updates on the Flathead, every engine you build gets better!  I especially like your how to articles. I'm sure there are many people like me that refer to your previous post for information when building our engines,                                             Thanks Gary
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Art K on September 14, 2015, 12:11:03 AM
George,
Every time I see what you do I am amazed. Like Don say's you are a craftsman and artist.
Art
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on September 14, 2015, 03:21:22 AM
Thank you everyone for the gracious comments.
Achim,
Here's the story on the oil rings. I'll give you some background information first.

The cylinder bores are .831 diameter. They were supposed to be .830 but when I started honing one cylinder got a little big so I had to finish them all at .831 The pistons are .8295. My compression rings are made to fit the cylinder bore and have an inside diameter of .740, giving a thickness of .0455. The width is .035.
The compression rings flexed enough to expand over the pistons and during the installation process only one of 16 was broken.

The oil rings have the same outside and inside dimensions. The width is .067 with a .035 center relief. This leaves .016 rings at the top and bottom. The depth of the .035 center relief is .020 leaving an internal thickness of .025. There are 14 .034 drilled holes for oil return.

At this point I have to say I have never made oil rings this small before and my dimensions were purely speculative. When trying to install them I broke the first 7 rings and each of them broke at the oil return hole. I don't know that changing any of the original dimensions will improve the flexibility of the rings so once I have the engine finished and running, whether it smokes or not, I will then experiment with another process.

What I have in mind is to machine the pistons at the oil ring location with 2 thin grooves, possibly .016-.018 wide. These will be spaced about .035 apart. Much similar to my original dimensions. The area between these two rings will be recessed about .010 and drilled with oil return holes. I will use the oil rings as scrapers and the area between will be for oil collection and return. Although the rings won't be totally supported for their entire thickness there should be enough to keep them from flexing up and down. There would be no way to prove this out but to run the engine and over time pull it apart to see if the grooves had become wallowed out. The pistons could also be made to have a greater wall thickness and the oil scrapers a little thicker to help support them.
Time will tell and I'll keep you posted on my experiment.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Don1966 on September 14, 2015, 03:49:58 AM
George if I may say, why not make the oil rings out of different metal? I presume they were made with cast as the rest of the rings. Since they have no compression function and there sole purpose is to lubicate what would be the harm?

Regards Don
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on September 14, 2015, 01:32:20 PM
Hi Don,
I'm all for that except I can't think of any metal that would be springy enough to open up to install on the piston but then compress and hold it's set once in place. Full sized oil rings are very thin in section and have an expander between them. I also thought of making an expander from Teflon. It could be turned a couple of thousands under the bore size and drilled with oil return holes. It would be easy to fit on the piston and still hold the 2 rings apart. It's going to take some experimentation to sort this one out.
It just goes to show you the fine line between breaking and not breaking. The oil rings in my 302 are made the same way, from iron, but they are 1.00 in diameter. I did break two of them when installing but with these .830's I had no luck at all.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: jschoenly on September 14, 2015, 02:45:20 PM
I say this in total ignorance, but would Ductile Iron work for them?  Just a thought.  I can't say I heard of it's use for rings before, but why not? 

Great Stuff!
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Mayhugh1 on September 14, 2015, 07:04:07 PM
George,
Maybe you already did this and I didn't pick it up from your explanation, but when I made the oil rings for my radials I left out the drilled hole opposite to the ring gap. As you know, that particular area is highly stressed during the installation process and can use all the meat you can give it. Of course, it requires that you break the ring in a controlled place after the holes are drilled. I made a cleaver to do mine.  Terry
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: fumopuc on September 14, 2015, 07:34:31 PM
Hi George, thanks for your full describtion of the problem with the oil rings. Now I have understood.
What Terry mentioned, no hole, no stress in the critical area sounds logical also. Your idea to integrate the oil return recess into the piton itself seems to be an interesting solution too. I will wait for your further steps and thanks again for reporting about all this here at MEM. I apprecheate it very much and enjoy it to learn.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Dave Otto on September 15, 2015, 01:45:02 AM
I seem to remember from my VW rebuilding days that the cast iron oil rings had slots cut in them and not holes; maybe you could add a slot on each side and stay away from the high stress point?

Dave
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: KB on September 15, 2015, 09:28:15 PM

Thanks for the video update, your dedication and skill continue to boggle the mind.

I am sure you have considered all of the options but for the starter, is there any chance that a planetary transmission from a cordless screwdriver, coupled to an RC car motor, would work?
What is it's diameter?

I bet you can see the light at the end of the tunnel now!

Cheers.
KB
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on September 15, 2015, 11:06:53 PM
Hi Kevin,
I know it would be way cool to have a self contained starter but with the size and experimentation involved I'll just use the one-way bearing for now. It's like the generator. When I go to shows people ask me if the alternator/generator works and I tell them it's just for looks although it would be easier to make a working generator than starter.
Yes I'm getting close now. I talked with a radiator shop about getting a small core made like I have on the 302 but the only way they could help me out was to have someone make one from scratch to the tune of several hundred dollars so I have opted to build my own. I have it drawn and will be ordering the material shortly.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: kvom on September 16, 2015, 02:49:56 AM
Are you going tp paint or anodize any of the parts?
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on September 16, 2015, 01:55:11 PM
Having never anodized parts before I really don't want to get into another process but I do plan on painting this engine. The main components will be red, block, oil pan, water pumps and possibly the bellhousing. The area between the fins on the heads will also be red. The starter and generator will be black. At this point I'm planning on leaving the intake manifold aluminum.
The base will be aluminum plate but I have been trying to come up with some ideas to fancy it up. I thought about making some small squares and having them powder coated black and white. these would be epoxied into a recess milled into the base giving the appearance of a checkered flag. I also thought about swirl polishing/engine turning the base.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on September 16, 2015, 07:14:49 PM
George,  nothing else can be said as far as quality, it's stunning.  If I could afford to commission one from you,  I'd want it "So-Cal Custom period correct,  as far as color and trim. The boys on our coast could make them run, their coast could made them pretty .

Cletus
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on September 30, 2015, 12:45:33 AM
Hi Gents,
I'm working on all the small bits and pieces. I received plug wire from S&S machine and started making up the wires. I'm using .099 wire. The holes in my distributor cap are .125. I trim a little from one end of the wire and put it through a .025 brass disc, then solder it. This is the cap end of the wire. I then slide a short piece of shrink tubing onto the wire up against the projection on the cap. This is to add a little more material so that the outer piece of shrink tubing will positively hold tight. The outer piece is slid down over the projection on the cap and then shrunk in place. I use a separate piece of plastic that is machined the same size as the projections on the cap so I don't inadvertently melt on of the adjacent projections when I'm applying heat to the shrink tubing. I ordered 8 vacuum fittings to make the boots for the plugs but after thinking about it the old flatheads had open terminals so I did the same. I turned up some brass washers and sleeves and silver soldered them together for the terminals.
I cut some .09 discs from the piece of Delrin and then drilled and cut them up into wire spacers. The holes are a bit smaller than the wire diameter and the top of the spacers is only cut down to where there's enough room to push the wire in. I have two's, three's and four holes spacers along the wires for spacing and neat routing.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Don1966 on September 30, 2015, 12:56:11 AM
Pure afternoon delight George, I am waiting to see it run buddy..........did I say I ........like......... :praise2:


Don
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on September 30, 2015, 12:59:20 AM
The next project was to finish the carb throttle barrels and linkages. I had originally turned the barrel shafts down to .125 diameter with the 3-48 thread on the end to hold the levers. After making the levers I realized there would be no way to hold the shaft to tighten the nuts so I made up hex sleeves and soldered them over the shafts. The rear sleeve was machined with a projection for a 0-80 threaded hole for the idle stop screw.
The needle valves were also made for the other side. I still have to make the fuel fittings for both carbs.
The linkage shafting is .062 stainless steel. The ends are made from 1144 steel because 12L14 likes too rust to easily. The rod ends are held in place on the levers with small shoulder bolts having 2-56 thread. I only thread far enough so that the bolts tighten up in the levers without pinching the rod ends.
On my 302 engine I have a bracket bolted to the intake manifold. This serves as a support for the throttle shaft and spring to operate the carb. I thought about doing the same with this engine but then realized the exhaust will be exiting right where my hand would be so I came up with the design you see pictured.
I made the bracket from .047 stainless steel and silver soldered the tube onto the top. The shaft is a bell crank type which will have a piece of rod going down to the base and a miniature Moon type gas pedal. This will keep the  operators hand away from the exhaust and also look pretty cool.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Dave Otto on September 30, 2015, 01:19:32 AM
Very nice George!

Your throttle linkage looks great; lots of little tiny parts there.

Dave
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on October 07, 2015, 09:04:22 PM
I can see light at the end of the tunnel. I finished the front and rear motor mounts and a slick looking Moon gas pedal, for those of you that are old hot rodders.
I was going to mount the engine with hard neoprene bushings between the motor mounts on the engine but they were so small that when I tightened the screws the bushing compressed so I made up a steel spacer to take into account the lost dimension. The base plate is quite large, 8 x 14 inches x .25 thick. I left room at the front for the radiator.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on October 07, 2015, 09:13:04 PM
The gas pedal is a copy of the one I used for the inline six engine although I scaled it up. The engine is about 1/3 size so that would make a 10 inch pedal 3 inches long. Somehow when I held my scale up to the engine it just didn't look right so I used what looked good. This time rather than step out the base for the shoe print and then file everything I made up a fixture plate and used the rotary table to cut the radii. The diamond plate was done the same as the smaller pedal with the exception of being a larger scale. I took a piece of .25 aluminum and clamped it in the mill vise at 45 degrees. Then using an end mill with a .045 x 45 degree chamfer on the corner stepped the first pattern. When this was finished I turned the plate 90 degrees and repeated the cuts. The plate was then turned over and thinned down to the proper thickness leaving a thin frame around the piece so it wouldn't collapse. The plate was then cut out and fitted to the shoe piece.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Don1966 on October 07, 2015, 10:24:26 PM
George I love it, awesome buddy just awesome............  :praise2: :praise2:


Don
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: maury on October 07, 2015, 10:28:11 PM
George, Totally Cool!!!!!
I just tuned in after some weeks of not much on-line time. Guess I've been hunkered down in my shop too long. I have always been a big fan of engines built to scale, but this is just over the top! Excellent work. I can't wait to see this model at NAMES next spring.

maury
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on October 07, 2015, 11:31:17 PM
George, the Moon pedal is way cool dude 8). Now, are we gonna have a Moon gas tank to go with it? :stir: This build is far out dude :lolb:. I'm in til the end,  well, at least until I get my draft notice  :lolb:

Cletus
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: b.lindsey on October 08, 2015, 12:40:06 AM
That gas pedal is just too cool George. Hot Rodders or not, seems most of us are old enough to remember those days fondly :)  It sets off the engine just perfectly!!

Bill
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: ths on October 08, 2015, 12:56:22 PM
The pedal!!! Hugh.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Mosey on October 11, 2015, 03:19:40 PM
Cool, Daddy'o!
Mosey
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: ICEpeter on October 11, 2015, 06:33:21 PM
Hello George,
Love that pedal!

Would like to ask you a question though: I noticed in a couple of pictures the incorporation of an electric starter and generator. Knowing the quality of your work and the thought process you engage in prior to executing the work, I assume both the starter and generator are working parts used for starting the engine and producing electricity (I assume to charge / re-charge batteries) may I ask what are you using hardware wise for the starter and generator? Are these two parts borrowed from the RC modelers electric motors and converted for your use in the flathead V - 8? Thanks.

Peter J.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on October 11, 2015, 06:46:18 PM
Thanks fellows,
I am starting on the radiator. Although probably not the best idea in terms of time spent it was the most expeditious route in terms of money.

I bought 2 sheets of .025 brass, one 12x12 inches and one 12x24. I put the finest blade on my bandsaw and used the high speed, for wood cutting. I also clamped 2 pieces of flat aluminum stock up against the blade to provide the most support while cutting this thin material. It cut great. I had to cut 46 pieces, 5 x 1.375 inches. The next step was to deburr them and mill them to size.

 I stacked all of them in the vise and very lightly tightened the vise. I then tapped on each strip to make sure they were down against the parallels. They were cut, deburred, flipped and cut to size. I then took the stack out of the vise and clamped them together at both ends. The stack was put back in the vise with packing to clear the clamps and the length was cut to size. The stack was removed and the ends soldered to hold them in place. The stack was then put back in the vise but rather than just holding them with the bare vise jaws I put a strip of notebook paper against each jaw. This was to take up any irregularities in the widths of the pieces.

I picked up the center of the stack and started center drilling the holes. It was at this point that I realized I should have soldered the sides in a couple of places also because as the center drill went through the first piece into the second it raised a little burr and lifted the top piece ever so slightly. I wasn't that far along and should have stopped and taken care of the problem but I didn't!
I did all the center drilling and started drilling the holes. I drilled them .191 (#11 drill) and as I broke through the first plate it raised even a little more. Not enough to break the end solder joints but enough to swell the piece up. Realizing that it would only get worse as I went along I drilled several of the holes at different points and then put 10-24 screws through them to help keep the stack together. That seemed to work fine with the exception of when the drill got down to the last couple of plates I bowed them out because they were only supported by the thin parallels along the edges.
When I completed the drilling and unsoldered the stack the top and lower two plates were quite distorted so I'll have to make replacements. The rest of the plates came out ok except that each one needs to be deburred on both sides because the stack was tight together when drilling. Oh well, another lesson learned.

Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on October 11, 2015, 06:53:43 PM
Peter,
Both the starter and the generator are dummies, both meant to add to realistic look of the engine. In the past I have used small DC electric motors as generator sources but with pieces this small they aren't very functional as charging devices. The starter is another thing altogether. Even by using some of the very high tech electric motors that are produced these days it would still require a planetary gear system to provide enough torque to turn the motor over. I have a friend that uses a full sized electric motor from a large RC car and he used a gear set to reduce the rpm and increase the torque. It does work but is not visually appealing to the look of the engine. I will use my tried and tested method of installing a one-way bearing in the flywheel and turning the engine over with an electric drill.
Thanks for asking.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on October 11, 2015, 07:00:49 PM
The upper and lower headers are milled and drilled from .125 x 1.50 brass strips. I machined a recess (.060 deep) into the headers to accept the top and bottom tanks. The headers were then drilled to accommodate the .187 brass tubes.
The side plates were made in a similar fashion but they are only 1.375 wide. They have a notch cut in the top and bottom so they will fit up against the header plates. The plan is to drill and tap 2- 0-80 holes in each end to temporarily hold the the whole thing together. The side plates and headers will then be silver soldered for strength. I didn't want to start soldering all the fins and tubes and then have the headers come unsoldered.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Don1966 on October 11, 2015, 09:29:58 PM
Looking great George and I am glad your taking the time to show us how to and how not to make a radiator. Following you with great interest.

Don
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on October 14, 2015, 01:15:56 AM
It's kind of late in the game but I thought I would try a different approach in making the fins. When I finished the first batch and unsoldered them there were two I just couldn't use. When I put the screws through to hold them in place there was a burr on the inside and as I tightened the nut it distorted the plate beyond fixing. The others all needed straightening and deburring. With losing two plates and being short one from the original batch (miscount) I made up three new plates.

The new ideas was to make a drilling fixture so I cut two pieces of 3/4 aluminum plate, one large enough to have a cavity milled into it to hold the plates, old and new, and one to fit inside of the hollow one to press down and hold the plates in place.
I started with the new plates as the fixture needed to be drilled anyway. The plates were all milled within .0005 both on the width and length. The fixture was made .001 larger than the plates.
The 68 holes were center drilled then drilled. When the upper half of the fixture was removed the plates were perfectly flat with just the smallest burr around each of the holes.

Hindsight is always 20/20!

If I ever do this type of job again I will certainly make a drilling fixture and save hours of straightening and deburring.

Now I have 68 tubes to cut.

Pictures are: 1. lower half fixture, 2. upper half fixture, 3. fixture assembled for drilling, 4. new plates, 5. all plates.

gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Don1966 on October 14, 2015, 01:43:52 AM
George I hate to see you have to remake but I also like the fact that we both learned something here. Still enjoying and learning with you my friend...... :ThumbsUp:

Don
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Roger B on October 14, 2015, 08:57:30 AM
I thought that my 10 tube 9 fin radiator was a lot of drilling and soldering  ::) This is at a completely different level, excellent work  :praise2:  :praise2:
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Brendon M on October 15, 2015, 08:17:42 AM
I had wondered how one might construct a radiator. Thank you for sharing :)
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on October 25, 2015, 12:14:47 PM
Gentlemen,
I thought I would bring you up to date on the radiator build. I have all the pieces made except the top tank. I didn't have any brass large enough to make it so I went to the bank and took out a loan to purchase a piece of 1.00 x 1-1/2 x 12 inch brass, $45.00. I don't know what gold sells for but brass can't be far behind.
The frame is assembled, 2 headers and 2 side plates screwed together with 0-80 oval head Phillips screws. These corners will get some solder once I start that process. I have 47 fins, 68 3/16 tubes and 192 spacer bushings. I started by feeding 4 evenly spaced tubes into the lower header. Onto these I put 4 spacer bushings. I didn't know any other way to maintain even spacing with such a large radiator.
This was followed by a fin plate (.025 brass). This was repeated over and over, stacking up the fins.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on October 25, 2015, 12:23:37 PM
When I cut all the spacer bushings I used a cutoff tool with a slight angle on the tip so it wouldn't leave a burr on the piece, which worked, but I still had to file and slightly deburr the inside edges so they would slip over the tubes. It's one of those jobs that is extremely boring and time consuming but there's no other way around it.
I kept up the process until the entire core was assembled. Now I started feeding the other tubes into the core. As I mentioned in one of my earlier posts on the radiator build the stack of fins had distorted a little while drilling. This lead to a small shift in some of the holes. By that I mean a couple of thousands here and there. Just enough to prevent the tubes from sliding in place. To remedy the situation I put a 3/16 machine reamer into my drill and cleaned out all the holes.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on October 25, 2015, 12:31:38 PM
The radiator tanks are machined from solid brass. In years past I had made a set of dies to try and press out the tanks but the shape caused the metal to buckle at the corners. It's not that they weren't usable but they just didn't look good. I tried to replicate the recesses that are normally pressed into the tanks. This was in the old days when the tanks were made from brass and not plastic like today's tanks. I also finished the radiator cap and neck. The cap will have a spring loaded valve like it's larger counterpart. The cap was machined from 303 stainless while the neck is made from brass. I also had a few remaining Ford logo plates in my spares box so I machined all the extra metal away leaving just the skeleton script intact. This will get soldered onto the front of the tank when finished.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: b.lindsey on October 25, 2015, 01:40:24 PM
That is a lot of tedious work George, but the results sure show it off well and make it all worthwhile. Even the radiator is a thing of beauty!!

Bill
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: kvom on October 25, 2015, 02:15:19 PM
You should have posted earlier.  I have a 12" bar of 1.5" square brass that was yours for a lot less than $45.  I bought a whole bunch of brass years ago for $2/pound.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Don1966 on October 25, 2015, 03:38:39 PM
I know to well how much work it takes to get to this point George and I salute you for all your efforts. Do you have photos of making the radiator tank? I would really enjoy seeing them. You my friend keep inspiring me with your every post. Thank you for taking the time to share your work with us.

Don
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: fumopuc on October 25, 2015, 05:17:22 PM
Hi George, this radiaror and its tank makes me speachless. Great in all details, functional and optical.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: ICEpeter on October 25, 2015, 05:44:17 PM
Hello George,
I have been following your post since it started and I must say I am totally impressed with your top level workmanship and outstanding quality of work. Simply brilliant!

Peter J.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: mnay on October 26, 2015, 06:28:18 PM
Amazing work.  Thanks for letting see how you do it.  Inspiring ..........
Mike
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Art K on October 27, 2015, 12:38:43 AM
George,
I don't know what to say, your radiators are as well detailed as your engines. I will remember this when I make a water cooled engine.
Art
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on October 27, 2015, 01:12:07 AM
I finished machining the top tank today. I started by cutting the stock to the overall sizes. When I did the bottom tank I cut the inside out first and then had to use an adjustable parallel inside to support it for the outside machining. On this one I left the inside for last and started on the outside. I cut all the recesses on the sides and top and knowing how much hand work I had to do on the bottom tank I set this one up in a V-block to take some of the extra stock off. It worked very well. With the outside shapes cut I turned it over and cut out the inside, stepping up the ends to match the 30 degree angle on the outside.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on October 27, 2015, 01:17:47 AM
Here are four pictures showing the sequence of forming the radius on the corners of the recessed area.
The first step was file the outside edges with a small pointed round file to match the existing fillet that was formed with the end mill.
Next was to file the inside material with a small pillar file. I used the pillar file so I wouldn't remove any of the corner radius.
I then used a small flat file that has a small radius on the edges and cleaned up the corners.
The last picture shows the radius gauge sitting on the corner radius.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on October 27, 2015, 01:26:39 AM
This last set of pictures shows the tank after the final filing and sanding. When I did the bottom tank I used a 3 corner scraper to knock of the edges of the recesses. This was painstaking as I had to be careful not to gouge the surrounding area. For the top tank I took a different approach. For cleaning up fillets where I can't get in with a file I have used old Xacto blades that have a radius ground on them. The blades aren't super hard but they're good enough for brass or aluminum. For the tank I ground one with a double radius, one for the bottom and one for the corner of the recess. By carefully dragging it along the edge if formed a nice radius. After sanding it came out nice and smooth.
I fitted the filler neck to the tank and took a couple of more pictures.
Tomorrow the soldering starts.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Don1966 on October 27, 2015, 01:49:04 AM
Thanks George that's the photos I wanted to see. That is awesome bud. One thing I found was that using the Foredom with diamond burrs works great, as they don't cut deep and fast. So you can feather your cutting rate and gives a smooth finish.

Don
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: b.lindsey on October 27, 2015, 01:52:15 AM
A great sequence of pictures George and very descriptive of the process. Don...the diamond burrs sound like a good idea as well...do you have a link for a source of them and which handpiece are you using them in?

Bill
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Don1966 on October 27, 2015, 03:38:53 AM
A great sequence of pictures George and very descriptive of the process. Don...the diamond burrs sound like a good idea as well...do you have a link for a source of them and which handpiece are you using them in?

Bill
Hi Bill, I use the H30 hand piece but I have the H8 on order it's a slimmer hand piece and comes with 3/32 and 1/8 collets, you can also use them in the Dremel. I have a foot speed control for my Foredom that I use to slow the process down when I need to. This is the link http://www.micromark.com/30-piece-diamond-coated-micro-burr-set,7933.html
I also have this work station if anyone is interested in it. A little pricey but worth it. http://www.foredom.net/lightedworkchambermalc15.aspx
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on October 28, 2015, 12:26:29 AM
I guess I should have know better! I typed 4 paragraphs of text explaining in detail how I soldered the radiator together along with pictures and when I hit the post button it gave me the internal error window.
SOB!!!!! >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Dave Otto on October 28, 2015, 12:39:30 AM
George sorry about loosing your work; I have been there and I know how maddening it can be. As I have said before if I need to type more than a couple of lines I will do it in Word then paste it into the MEM text window. At least you can save your work this way.
One other thing that I do when I do take a chance and type directly in the MEM text window; is to highlight and copy all my text to the clipboard before I hit post. This way if it all goes south I can paste it back and try again. >:(

Thanks for showing your work on the tanks; I was thinking that you were going to show us how you milled around those corners and you pulled a fast one on us and did it by hand; beautiful work BTW!

Dave
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: maury on October 28, 2015, 01:13:30 AM
George, very nice work on the radiator. I'm sure there was an enormous amount of work to it. I've neen thinking about radiators in my spare time too. Like the guy who sits & thinks sometimes, and who just sits other times. I'm in the process of making bronze castings for a radiator for my Holt.

maury
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: steamer on October 28, 2015, 02:50:35 AM
George,

I am very sorry to hear about you losing your post.    I have had that happen too, and it's very frustrating!

To avoid this, on large posts, I type up my post in MS  Word, or frankly any other word processing software, and then do a cut and paste into the post box.    Then post it.

Then I can go back and edit the post to add pictures.   I know then that I won't loose anything

Sorry buddy!.

Dave
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: fumopuc on October 28, 2015, 05:23:34 AM
I guess I should have know better! I typed 4 paragraphs of text explaining in detail how I soldered the radiator together along with pictures and when I hit the post button it gave me the internal error window.
SOB!!!!! >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
It will not help, but you are not the only one.I think it has happend to everyone already and it is not a MEM issue, it happend to me at our German forum also.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Jo on October 28, 2015, 08:54:08 AM
Try hitting the go back button on your browser I often find it returns me to the page with the text in the box. Then I copy paste it to a safe place before trying again  ;).

Jo
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on October 28, 2015, 12:59:37 PM
 We'll try and give it another go.

 Having never built a radiator quite like this one I had a game plan for the construction but wasn't sure of the outcome. I certainly didn't want to end up losing many hours of work not to mention $150 dollars worth of material.

 When I worked in the pattern shop we had a liquid called Ruby fluid. It's a cleaning and fluxing liquid that when applied to some solder on a hot piece of metal will cause it to flow extremely well. I noticed in the McMaster catalog that they carried it so I ordered a bottle.  I also had some remaining sticks of 50/50 solder, about 10 x 1 x .50 inch. I cut some long thin pieces on the bandsaw in preparation to soldering everything together.

 My plan was to start at the bottom header and solder all the tubes in place. As the heat was applied I would work my way up the core applying solder to just the bottom of the fins. The idea was when finished the tops of the fins would only have solder around the tube/fin joint and not possibly a gob where it had been applied. Using a propane torch I started heating up the header plate. I dabbed solder to the plate near the tubes until it just started to melt. I the brushed on some Ruby fluid and the solder wicked nicely. I worked my way around the header making sure that each tube was well soldered.

 With some heat built up in the core I started on the fins. I dabbed a bit of solder to the first row and what I had planned didn't work out because with the small space (.090) between the fins the solder wicked to both sides of the fins. Oh well not a big deal. When I had applied solder to 4-5 rows I brushed on some more fluid and the soldered leveled out amazingly. I worked my way up the core until I got the upper header plate and then flipped the core for access to the tubes.

 When soldering, both soft (lead based) or hard (silver based) the most important thing is to never get the metal too hot. Once the surface has been burned or oxidized there's no sense going any further until that area has been cleaned.
 
 With that in mind I was very careful to only heat the fins/tubes until the solder would melt when applied. With the upper header finished I worked my way back down the other side. In the picture you can see that the coverage is about 85-90%. More than enough to transmit the heat of the tubes into the fins.

 Whether I paint the core or leave it as bare metal I wanted the tanks to be buffed brass so prior to soldering the fittings to the tanks I buffed them to a high gloss using a dedicated 6 inch buffing wheel and some small mounted buffs to get in the corners. I then inserted the filler neck, outlet tubes and drain bushing and soldered them from the inside so the solder wouldn't show on the outside of the tanks.
 
 I realized that when I soldered the header plates the solder wicked everywhere, which is a good thing, but in doing so it built up a fillet around the inside flange and this would have to be cleaned out so that I could get the tanks mounted. Trying to file soft solder is practically useless so I had to come up with a small scraper to remove the built up solder. I took an old Allen wrench and ground the short leg square, thin enough to fit between the outer row of tubes and the tank flange. I made sure to have clearance on the sides so as to give the leading edges a nice sharp corner. I then honed the leading edge to further sharpen  the corners. I then mounted the Allen wrench into a small drill chuck and pulled it along the inside of the flange. The solder peeled up in a nice curl. I worked my way around the flange cleaning up the edges and test fitting the tanks along the way. Once the tanks fell into place it was time to solder them.

 At this point I reverted back to the solder flux in a tube (for lead based solders). I coated the inside of the flange and the edges of the tanks. I only mounted one tank at a time so that I could use the flat end to stand the tank up. I started applying heat and when the original solder started to get shiny I dabbed my little stick of solder to the joint line. I could see it start to wick along the joint so I played the torch along the edge dabbing here and there with the stick. Once I was sure the tank was sealed well I flipped the core over and did the other end.

 Now I'm sure most of you have done some soft soldering. When using the paste flux it doesn't clean up very easily. Normally it's on the outside of a part so scrubbing with hot water and copper cleaner will remove it. In this case I had flux inside so I needed to remove it. I have some very good (expensive) brass cleaning liquid. I thought I would just put some in the bottom of a plastic tub and dip the rad into it allowing the cleaner to go inside and neutralize the flux. Good plan I thought! I only let the tank ends sit in the fluid for no more than 2 minutes but in that time the cleaner removed probably about .00005 of metal. Just enough to remove all the buffed surface. Not a big deal you say, just rebuff. Well the problem is now all those little projections are sticking out of the tanks and trying to get down into the tiny corners is virtually impossible.

 I did my best spending another hour or so buffing and polishing with everything in my arsenal and finally got the tanks presentable. Not as nice as I had hoped for but unless one looks close they look pretty good.

 Another lesson learned!

The pictures show 1. The header plate with the solder around all the tubes, 2. The coverage of the solder around the fins and tubes and the finished radiator. All that remains is to attach a couple of angled mounting plates to the sides and she'll be finished.

 Having completed this project and learned so many things if there comes a need in the future for another one I think I will explore some other avenues first.

 Thanks for watching.
gbritnell

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v43/gbritnell/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/RADIATOR/IMG_5817_zpsnbnakwoy.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/gbritnell/media/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/RADIATOR/IMG_5817_zpsnbnakwoy.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v43/gbritnell/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/RADIATOR/IMG_5820_zpsy47lyey8.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/gbritnell/media/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/RADIATOR/IMG_5820_zpsy47lyey8.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v43/gbritnell/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/RADIATOR/IMG_5826_zpsowboqv7j.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/gbritnell/media/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/RADIATOR/IMG_5826_zpsowboqv7j.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v43/gbritnell/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/RADIATOR/IMG_5832_zpshjckxchb.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/gbritnell/media/FLAHEAD%20V-8%20ENGINE/RADIATOR/IMG_5832_zpshjckxchb.jpg.html)
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on October 28, 2015, 01:07:00 PM
Well I typed up the new response and before posting it I saved it to a word program. I then posted it and got the error message. I hit the back button and it took me back to the message where I could preview it with no problem. I then tried to repost it and got the same error so I left the site and came back to try again, same thing. The next thing I did was to try and post just the message with no pictures and Ta Da, it posted. Now I went into the edit mode and added the pictures. When I tried to repost I got the same error message. It seems like it has something to do with adding the pictures.
Anyway the posting is here so I will put the photos into my Photobucket account and add them.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: steamer on October 28, 2015, 03:09:32 PM
George,

When you embed a picture, there is a limit to overall file size / post.    I think it's something like 10 meg.     That may be the source of the problem.

Dave
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on October 28, 2015, 03:23:58 PM
Hi Dave,
I have been resizing my pictures in Irfanview before posting them forever. They are always the same size and sometimes I post the limit with no problems. Every once in awhile this issue comes up so it can't just be from the photo sizes. I'll just have to be more careful when I have a long text posting and do it in Word first. I guess I get complacent and just post here first.
Thanks for the suggestions.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Roger B on October 28, 2015, 03:46:30 PM
The radiator looks magnificent  :praise2:  :praise2:

Every so often I get a picture that will not upload. Like you they are taken on the same camera and compressed with the same software but sometime one will just not work  ::)
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: kvom on October 28, 2015, 06:17:42 PM
Since only the first row of tubes can be seen through the front and back, did you really need the two middle rows for cooling?

Beautiful result!
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on October 28, 2015, 07:17:23 PM
Knowing how hot these small engines get while running I laid out as many water tubes as I could fit in. Did I need them, I can't say but the fins had to be made anyway so it was just a matter of drilling and reaming more holes.
Thanks for the compliments.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: fumopuc on October 28, 2015, 07:20:14 PM
George, this radiator is brilliant.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: steamer on October 28, 2015, 08:42:31 PM
Radiator is beautiful George!!!!!

On the behalf of...well ...EVERYONE!.......I want to let you know how thankful we all are for you sharing your work here.      BIG TIME!!!!!


Dave

Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Don1966 on October 28, 2015, 11:49:20 PM
Awesome George, just awesome. Thank you for sharing your pit falls in making this and by doing that we have all learned a good lesson. All in all bud the radiator turned out great and your still my hero. Did I say I ...........like............. :praise2: :praise2:

Don
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: sbwhart on October 29, 2015, 06:34:01 AM
Beautiful work George that rad looks a masterful job.

I wonder if the flux you call Ruby Fluid is the same stuff we call Bakers Fluid this side of the pond, which is a Zinc Chloride based flux.

Cheers
Stew
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on October 29, 2015, 11:52:52 AM
You're probably correct Stew. It is Zinc Chloride. The stuff I used has a clear pink color to it so I'm guessing that's where the name came from.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: kvom on October 29, 2015, 02:55:46 PM
Since you have spacers around the tubes, how tight is the contact?  I was thinking that if there is good contact then soldering or JB welding the spacers to tubes would keep them in place abd the fins wouldn't need as much soldering to stay in place; only the top and bottom would need to be water tight.

Keep in mind that I'm always looking for the easy way to make something work as I don't have you patience.   :Doh:

Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on October 29, 2015, 03:52:56 PM
Actually there's only spacers on 4 of the tubes. They're spaced in about 4 holes from each end on the front and back rows. I experimented by stacking up the fins on the spacers to see if they would stay parallel etc. When Steve Huck made the radiator for his little V-8 engine he made up a spacer bar that would fit over the fins and locate them. I thought about doing the same thing except my rad is so large that I didn't know how I would cut the spacer piece. When you're fabricating something you try to think of different ways to handle the job and just decide on one. I even thought like you that by using the spacers and just soldering the tubes into the headers but then I thought if the fins get bumped they could bend and there would be no way to straighten them out.
As far as patience, it's something I have grown into. In my younger days I don't know if I would have had enough patience to do some of the things I do today. I don't set any time limit I just develop a procedure and work at it until it's complete.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: cfellows on October 30, 2015, 08:13:55 PM
More great work, George.  I, for one, admire your patience, something I'm pretty short on.  You spend a more time finishing an engine than I do, but your results are a lot more spectacular, not to mention an order of magnitude more complex.  :)

Chuck
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on November 01, 2015, 11:02:38 PM
With the radiator construction finished I made a pair of mounting brackets out of brass to match the rad frame. The rad needed to be elevated to somewhat center the fan and align the bottom inlets so in keeping with the front motor mount design I made an aluminum mount.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: ICEpeter on November 01, 2015, 11:16:48 PM
Hello George,
Looking great and coming along real nice.

Peter J.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: ozzie46 on November 02, 2015, 12:20:45 AM
Looks great George, are you going to shroud the fan in for better cooling flow of air. (That doesn't look right but you know what I mean.) :shrug: :shrug: :shrug:

  Ron
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Don1966 on November 02, 2015, 02:08:08 AM
I am just at awe to how well it all looks together.  A Masterpiece in it's glory and I can just hope to ever be able to achieve such quality craftsmanship.  i love it George............ :Love:

Don
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: ths on November 02, 2015, 03:26:44 AM
One of those words failing occasions, George. How 'bout better than Elvis? Hugh.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: fumopuc on November 02, 2015, 07:15:32 PM
WOW and speechless.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Mayhugh1 on November 03, 2015, 12:00:29 AM
I'm awestruck. The attention to detail and the worksmanship are outstanding. If you're attending Cabin Fever in January I hope to get a chance to drool over it. Terry
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: b.lindsey on November 03, 2015, 01:33:11 AM
Gorgeous George, speechless as well but what else is new regarding your builds :)

Bill
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: steamer on November 03, 2015, 06:24:42 AM


George as usual, I am at a loss of the appropriate superlative, to say nothing of the required yet completely inadequate adjective......

Dammmmmmn!!!


Ok...I'm gonna say it!....

Steamer wants Big Vroom!!!!     8)

Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on November 14, 2015, 07:35:29 PM
As I had mentioned in the earlier posting it's down to finishing up the small things now. First on the agenda was making proper hot rod acorn headed bolts. The original plan was to use stainless socket head screws but the more I looked at it the more I just wasn't happy with them. I purchased a couple of boxes of 1.00 long screws and they fit the bill perfectly. There is about .200 of unthreaded shank just below the socket head. The diameter is .200 which makes it a perfect fit for a #31 drill when making the acorn heads. I made a split bushing with a 5-40 thread through it to hold the screws for cutting off the heads after which I used the jaws on the chuck as a guide to file small flats at 120 degrees apart on the shank. These would be for the silver solder to wick down into and hold the heads to the shank. I purchased a length of 3/16 stainless hex rod and made up 40 acorn heads. I held off putting the radius on the heads until they were soldered onto the shanks. With all the soldering complete and the pieces cleaned I mounted each one in the split bushing and with a hand ground radius tool formed the tops of the heads. When the machining was complete I buffed each head being careful not to round the edges of the hex. To go with each of the 40 bolts I made up .03 thick washers.
I had thought that I might have to set the heads up again to enlarge the spot faced area around each bolt hole for socket clearance but as it turned out I turned the hex socket down to the point where it had about .02 of material over the high points and it fit fine into the existing pocket.
The end of each bolt was coated with a non hardening sealer and then screwed in place. The reason for the sealer is because some of the bolt holes go directly into the water jacket.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Don1966 on November 14, 2015, 07:40:28 PM
Looks dam good to me George and that could be because I like acorn nuts. But on your engine it looks superb...........  :Love:


Don
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on November 14, 2015, 07:53:55 PM
Up next was the water connections from the engine to the radiator. On some of the hot rodded flat heads they use a decorative tube between the engine and rad so I bought a piece of 3/8 stainless tubing for the job. I had to use my larger tubing bender because the small one only goes to 5/16 inch. I bent up a piece of heavy copper wire to get the shape I wanted and then cut and bent the stainless tubing. The tubes were then buffed and polished.
To make the hose clamps I slipped the tubing over the nipples and measured the O.D. I then turned up some stainless stock making the I.D. about .01 smaller than the measured size. The thickness is .015.
The bushing piece was drilled and tapped 2-56 then clearance drilled .093 dia. half way through. The extra diameter for the clearance allows the clamp to flex without binding the screw.
Each of the bushings were silver soldered to the rings then boiled in water to remove the flux. They were then clamped into the mill vise leaving just enough of the rings sticking out so that the slitting saw could go through the bushing and ring wall. I used a .040 slitting saw.
The radiator cap was also finished with the valve inside. I used bronze spring wire to make the spring so it could be soldered to the valve and bushing to hold it in place.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on November 14, 2015, 07:56:58 PM
It's getting close. Dave, probably in a couple of weeks will be the first starting test.
Just a few more pictures of the engine at this point.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Roger B on November 14, 2015, 08:10:06 PM
Your detailing is magnificent  :praise2:  :praise2: I am eagerly awaiting the first run  :wine1:
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Don1966 on November 14, 2015, 08:18:06 PM
That's just to sweet. Love the hose clamps ................ :Love:


Don
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: ozzie46 on November 14, 2015, 10:42:52 PM
That is absolutely gorgeous George.

Ron 
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Dave Otto on November 15, 2015, 12:53:43 AM
Continues to be amazing George!

Having seen the acorn hardware on flatheads many times over the years I never gave a thought to whether they were studs and nuts or bolts. I always assumed that they were nuts; now it makes since. Nuts and stud lengths would be a royal pain to deal with.

Thanks,
Dave
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Kim on November 15, 2015, 02:44:52 AM
Just amazing George! Unbelievable...
Kim
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Mosey on November 15, 2015, 02:18:16 PM
Beautiful George!
When will you show us the little scale men who do all of the work for you?
 :NotWorthy: :praise2: :praise2:
Mosey
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: fumopuc on November 15, 2015, 02:53:31 PM
Speechless, again. A masterpiece. The hose clamps are beautifull.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: RickCHodgin on December 30, 2015, 05:57:45 PM
Amazing, George.  Absolutely stunning.  I've sent this out to some of my friends.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on December 30, 2015, 09:45:57 PM
Gentlemen,
 As with most of the more complex builds I have completed over the years the building part is just one segment of the whole story.

 When I ran the engine in the lathe to loosen everything up I didn't have the heads on. As it was turning over I placed the heel of my hand against each cylinder and the compression was good. After installing the heads the compression didn't seem that good but at that point it wasn't a great concern.
 
 Two weeks ago I had everything ready for the first try at starting the engine. I set the timing ( a story in itself) fueled up the tank and gave it a spin. The only thing I got out of the exhaust pipes was some tiny puffs of smoke but nothing like it was trying to run. I changed the timing settings a little both ways but still no luck. I unhooked everything and took it back down into my shop. I turned the engine over by hand to check out the compression issue. Once again it didn't seem too good.

Having only built overhead valve type engines the combustion chambers were just an extension of the cylinder bore with enough room for the valves to clear the top of the piston at TDC. I can't say I every really calculated what the compression ratios were, they just seemed to be in the ball park.

With this flathead engine I designed the combustion chamber what seemed like proportional to the bore and stroke. What I didn't account for was all the extra combustion chamber space that goes out over the valve area. At this point I pulled out the calculator and did some long hand math. It was hard to get an exact number given the extremely irregular shape of the whole combustion chamber but I came up with about 5.2:1 compression ratio. Not so good!

 It was at this point that you have one of those V-8 moments (slap to the head). I have Solidworks on my computer so I drew up the combustion chamber and let the program do the volume calculating. I only play with Solidworks for my own enjoyment and have never used that feature before. When all the final numbers were in the actual compression ratio is 4.8:1. Really bad.

 Now having been a hot rodder in my younger days there are two ways that a person can go to gain compression, one is to shave the head, the other is to put pop-ups on the pistons. In my case milling the head wouldn't get me where I needed to be and making totally new lower head pieces didn't look that appealing. That left pulling the pistons and making new ones. I went back to Solidworks and kept adding material to the top of the pistons until I came up with a 7.75:1 C.R.

 When I made the original pistons I had cut a third groove for an oil ring but the rings I designed all broke when I tried to install them so I just went with the two compression rings. I did the same with the new pistons figuring that once I got the engine running I could come up with a new oil ring design that would work.

 I made the new pistons and put everything back together. I chucked the engine up in the lathe and spun it over to loosen up the new rings. While turning it over I could feel the engine bumping against the compression with the new pistons. So far so good! As I was turning it over a new problem arose. The engine was spitting quite a bit of oil from the exhaust pipes, I mean quite a bit. I thought if I let it turn over enough the rings would seat and this issue would go away. Not to happen!

 I pulled the heads and drained the oil from the tops of the pistons, wiped everything out, remounted the heads and took the engine out for the second attempt at starting. With everything hooked up I cranked it over and it fired up for just a brief time before it oil fouled the plugs and blew a bunch of oil from the pipes.

 This takes us up to date. I'm guessing that with no ring in the oil groove in the piston what should be oil drain-back holes are putting too much oil on the cylinder walls this causing the oil bypass of the compression rings. Right now I'm experimenting with some new oil ring designs. If that fails I'll just make a third ring to fill in the oil ring groove.

 Sometimes the fine tuning can take quite a bit of time and this engine is turning out to be now exception.
I'll keep you posted. With New Years and all it's activities it'll be a few days before I have a chance to get back to experimenting.

gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Don1966 on December 30, 2015, 10:03:43 PM
A bummer to hear George, but I have no doubt that you will have running when you return. Good luck my friend and I will be waiting to see this engine running at it's finest.

Don
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Doc on December 30, 2015, 10:55:39 PM
I'm sure you'll get it sorted out. You do some fantastic work by the way!
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Dave Otto on December 31, 2015, 12:15:19 AM
George, do you have George Trimble's article form Strictly IC Magazine? it has been a number of years since I read it; but seem to remember the he went through much of the same issues when he designed and built oil control rings for his test bed engine. I also seem to remember that he had methods to keep from breaking them. I need to dig it out have read it again.

Sounds like you are getting close though.

Dave
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Art K on December 31, 2015, 01:28:28 AM
George,
I have the opposite problem with my Val engine. The piston cleared on both ends. I did some calculations with some software Steve Huck provided. With a .032 gasket between the cylinder & head & .01 head gasket I was calculating something like 12.7:1. I need to add about .1 or more to the top of the cylinder to get it down to 7:1. A new cylinder is in the works. I really like this engine George, this thing is amazing. On top of that the hose clamps are a stroke of genius. I am looking forward to hearing it purr...
Art
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Mayhugh1 on December 31, 2015, 02:02:21 AM
George,
Thanks for the informative update. I would have thought that the second compression ring would have controlled the oil much better than what you're experiencing. I've always wondered how important special oil rings really are in a model engine, but it seems you'll end up answering that. I guess you're getting about the same result on all the cylinders? I'm sure you already know this, but it's probably best to leave out the oil return hole in an oil ring directly across from the gap.
Hope to see you at Cabin Fever. - Terry
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on December 31, 2015, 02:51:44 AM
Hi everyone,
Thanks for the comments and suggestions. Dave, I have a reprint of Trimbles article from SIC. I printed it out when I sold all my issues of SIC a number of years back.
My compression rings are .033 wide and .045 thick (OD to ID). The oil ring groove is .065 wide by .045 deep. Here's what I'm planning for my first experiment. I'm going to make a ring that's .030 thick. This will leave a .015 gap behind the ring. I'm going to turn the ring then cut a .01 deep (.020 on dia.) x .034 wide slot in the middle which will leave a ring on both ends .015 wide. I'm then going to drill six .034 dia. holes in the ring. These will be spaced on opposite sides of the ring leaving an undrilled area where the ring is cleaved and opposite the break. My hope is that when I open the ring to put it on the piston it won't be stressing the ring at a drilled hole. This is the problem I had with the first design. When I would open them up just enough to go on the piston they would break at one of the drilled holes.
My plan is the oil will collect and be controlled within the upper and lower rings and flow through the 6 holes to the space behind the ring and then into the 10 holes drilled in the piston.
Terry, I think part of the problem is the amount of oil that's being thrown about inside the crankcase. It has a full pressure pump (15 lbs when being turned over in the lathe with the oil cold. It feeds the cam journals first. The cam tunnel is open to the crankcase so the oil squirting out of the sides of the cam journals drips down on the rods and crank. From the cam journals the oil goes to the crank mains and then out to the rods.
On my small OHV inline 4 cylinder engine the compression is great and the engine starts and runs great but it has only 2 compression rings (.75 bore) and it smokes a little. I'm thinking that compression rings won't completely control the oil on the walls. My 302 (1.00 bore) has oil rings and it has never puffed any oil smoke since day one.
Ah the joys of home engineering!
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: fumopuc on December 31, 2015, 06:33:59 AM
Hi George, thank you very much for reporting so in details about your development work. In my oppinion it is very helpfull for every IC engine builder. Thanks again for sharing it with us and as Don mentioned already, no doubts, finaly you will get it running.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on January 03, 2016, 04:10:08 AM
I have a new batch of oil rings made. I made them as I had described in an earlier post. I'm attaching a few pictures of the new rings.
The were turned from Schedule 40 cast iron. I stacked 2 of them on the drilling mandrel mounted in my dividing head and drilled 8 holes starting at 30 degrees on either side of center. This left a 60 degree space to cleave the rings and a space of 120 degrees opposite the break for support.
I have included a picture of the cleaving fixture which was taken from the Timble article in SIC many years ago. The slot for the 2 pieces of .250 high speed lathe bits is cut deeper than the slot cut at 90 degrees where the ring is inserted. This lets the ring sit squarely to the cutting edges of the bits.
The rings were then mounted back on the tempering fixture for heat treating.

 As a side note I made a practice ring just to check and see  how it would flex after heat treating but rather than mount it on the fixture, which would have necessitated making a spacer bushing, I used a method that some builder have used. This method is to machine the ring, cleave it open and then mount it on a piece of steel to hold the gap open. The ring is then held in front of a piece of refractory material like a fire brick or soldering pad and then heated until it drops from the steel spacer bar. I have to say that I have used this method a couple of times when making odd sized rings for hit an miss engines. The reason I used this method was to eliminate having to made a heat treating fixture for just a couple of rings. Anyway I discovered something that might be helpful should anyone think of trying this method. It works on plain rings but not on a ring with holes drilled in it, like and oil ring. What happens is the stress on the ring while mounted on the steel spacer bar and then heated distorts the ring at the drilled holes so you end up with a ring that won't fit the bore properly.

 After heat treating the rings I filed the ends to the proper gap spacing in the bores and then fitted them to the pistons. I can report that they flexed very well and went on the pistons with no trouble.
How they work once in the bores I can't say yet but dimensionally they seem to work fine.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Doc on January 03, 2016, 04:22:17 AM
 Nice looking rings and nice set up for breaking. I need to make me up that unit. I've been calculating the circumference of ring needed then adding in the width of a slitting saw then convert back to dia turn up and the cutting with saw. I like the way you are doing much better my next rings I will give it a spin. Thanks for the pics and nice work you amaze me with it!
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: 10KPete on January 03, 2016, 05:36:57 AM
This build has taught me sooo much about the details of IC engines!!

 :praise2: :praise2:

Thank you for the excellent words and music.

Pete
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Don1966 on January 03, 2016, 02:52:43 PM
Good to see you have overcome the hurdle George. Looks like you got some good results.

Don
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Hugh Currin on January 03, 2016, 06:11:22 PM
As a side note I made a practice ring just to check and see  how it would flex after heat treating but rather than mount it on the fixture, which would have necessitated making a spacer bushing, I used a method that some builder have used. This method is to machine the ring, cleave it open and then mount it on a piece of steel to hold the gap open. The ring is then held in front of a piece of refractory material like a fire brick or soldering pad and then heated until it drops from the steel spacer bar..... It works on plain rings but not on a ring with holes drilled in it, like and oil ring. What happens is the stress on the ring while mounted on the steel spacer bar and then heated distorts the ring at the drilled holes so you end up with a ring that won't fit the bore properly.

George: That is an interesting observation. Did the rings spread with the "Timble" fixture come out "round"? I believe his fixture still spreads the rings using only three points. This should create a bending force in the ring and, due to the holes, force them out of "round".  The same as a spacer, though not as bad since Trimble's fixture presses at the center of the ring cross section. I looked back at Mr. Trimble's original articles and he suggests making oil rings just as you have. The "relaxation" of the rings is an annealing so the rings are soft after heating. It may be possible to drill the holes after spreading the rings?

I'll be interested in hearing how well they work. Might be hard to quantify though, maybe compare oil burned initially and after run in. That still won't compare rings drilled before and after spreading.

Anyway, you've created another wonderful engine. Thank you for sharing.

Hugh
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Hugh Currin on January 04, 2016, 04:08:49 PM
I believe his fixture still spreads the rings using only three points. This should create a bending force in the ring and, due to the holes, force them out of "round".  The same as a spacer, though not as bad since Trimble's fixture presses at the center of the ring cross section.

Hugh

I've changed my thinking. The ring loading when placed in Trimble's fixture is the reverse of the loading when inside the cylinder. That's the basis for Trimble's fixture. The rings will go "out of round" when heat treated, but then flex back to a "perfect" circle when compressed into the cylinder. His method should work just as well for oil rings.

At least that's what I think this morning, it could change by noon though.

Again a great model, thanks again for posting the build.

Hugh
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Stuart on January 04, 2016, 05:22:06 PM
Why not make them over size on th OD then split them and heat treat.

Then make up a jig in the lathe to clamp them with a washer but fully compressed , turn down to the required dia , then they will be round in the compressed state


Stuart
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Roger B on January 04, 2016, 05:53:16 PM
Stuart, there is a version of this in Tubal Cain's Model Engineer's Handbook which I have used successfully.

The ring is turned to size, then spilt and expanded. The rings are then compressed in a sleeve 0.05mm (2 thou) oversize  and clamped. The sleeve is then removed and the rings are turned/polished to size.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Stuart on January 04, 2016, 06:02:29 PM
That's it Roger

I could not remember the source were I read about it, I have used it and it worked ok for CI rings in a couple of my loco's

Stuart
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Mayhugh1 on January 10, 2016, 03:20:16 PM
[... I tried to start my flathead engine several weeks ago and got a lot of oil into the combustion chambers. If you have read my thread I had made provisions for oil rings but my original design didn't work so I tried to run the engine with just compression rings. I went back and came up with a different style of oil ring and was able to mount them on the pistons fairly easily. When I ran the engine over in the lathe to check things out (without the heads on) I was still getting a little oil past the rings. Not as bad as before but enough to make the engine smoke if I tried to run it. I have made a third rework of the oil rings so I'll have to see how they do.
My 302 V-8 has 2 compression and 1 oil ring and it has never smoked from day one so I'm perplexed as to to what's going on....]

George,
I don't think it's at all unusual for an engine to pump oil up past the rings and into the combustion chamber while it is being 'motored-in' even if all the rings are nearly perfect. You need the pressure of combustion to force the compression rings against the cylinder walls in order to limit the amount of oil being pumped up into the combustion chamber by crankcase pressure pulses created while externally spinning the motor or even the best oil rings can become overwhelmed. It may be time to fire it up and see what you have. - Terry
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on March 03, 2016, 05:05:28 PM
I tried to start my just completed flathead V-8 engine. I got very little action and realized the compression was lower than it should be. When I designed the engine I didn't take into account all the extra volume out over the valves and really didn't do a number calculation as to what the actual compression ration was. As built the engine calculated out to 5.2:1 compression. To remedy this I could go one of two way, new heads or new pistons. I took the easy way and made new pistons. The problem was I had to leave room for the spark plug and the compression I achieved was 6.4:1. I tried to start the engine and it tried to run which was an improvement over the first effort. The next step was to fill up the combustion chambers in the heads. The heads were set up in the original fixtures and the pockets machined out to accept fitted plugs. The plugs were lightly pressed in place and a retaining screw was put in from the water jacket side of the head. (The heads are made in two pieces to form the internal water jacket cavity). I then took a couple of week break to visit family in Florida and with the weather being cold here in Ohio I haven't had an opportunity to restart the engine.
With some time available I took the plunge and started on new high compression heads. These were machined similar to the original set in two pieces but with a simplified parting surface. All the holes were drilled to allow mounting on the fixture plate. The water jacket side of both the lower and upper pieces were machined first, then the fins were cut with a .093 mill saw, offsetting .031 to achieve the .125 fin spacing. The combustion chamber side was machined using the fixture plate and my angle milling table. The valve pockets were cut and then the remainder of the combustion chamber was stepped off to a layout line. The final finishing was done with small mounted stones and riffler files.
These heads will get me up to 8.6:1 so if the final modifications to the original heads won't do the job the new heads will be installed.
The small witness circles in the valve pockets are from when I plunged the cutter in to cut the pockets. The next step was to put in an end mill with a matching radius and clean up the surface. It's hard when you're dealing with .001 here and .001 there to get a good clean up sometimes. The rings are probably no deeper than that but if you try cleaning them up then you go chasing you tail trying to blend into the pocket radius.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: cfellows on March 03, 2016, 05:18:39 PM
I'm kind of surprised the engine wouldn't run on the lower compression ratio.  Most of my engines have a 5:1 compression ratio but then, my engines are all one or two cylinder.  Maybe the higher number of cylinders cause the engine to run differently...

Chuck
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on March 03, 2016, 05:30:14 PM
Hi Chuck,
I don't think it's strictly a matter of the CR as much as all the friction produced by having 24 piston rings dragging. The engine did try to start but wouldn't keep running so I'm thinking with a boost in compression it will give it a little more kick. Once the rings are broken in and things free up some I would probably be able to go back to the original heads, if need be.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Zephyrin on March 03, 2016, 06:35:26 PM
I'm regularly watching your threads and always impressed with your incredible talents and skill for building functionning engine models, thus it is not easy to comment a built of this level.
But it reminds me touble I had in the past with a flat head engine, (a single cylinder one...not a v8 !) namely the combustion chamber did not communicate well with the gas mass in the cylinder, i did not gave enough space around valve to reduce not further the compression ratio, already weak, but it was a mistake, a poor runner. then  I gave some air in the combustion chamber around valves and everything went well, a fine runner with a 1/4.4 compression ratio !
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: petertha on March 03, 2016, 07:23:07 PM
I hate to see the extra work George, but I know you'll persevere. When I was drawing up this radial project of mine I was surprised at how seemingly small geometry changes & nooks & crannies can translate into rather significant % CR changes. Being more in the 10:1 ratio (methanol glow) I had to re-think how to ensure I'd have a safe margin to begin with, figuring its easier to add shims & gaskets to lower CR. But options get more limited trying to raise it.

Can you add artificial 'dome-ing' shape to your piston tops to compress up any cavity volume, or is it 'straight top' cylindrical geometry? I've also wondered on the gas side, does higher octane or any other additives work towards helping matters?
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Roger B on March 03, 2016, 08:11:45 PM
Sounds a bit of a pain  ::) I'm sure you have already re checked all the basics, but are the ignition timing and cam timing actually what you planned? Is a gear a tooth or two out?

I know you have been following my fun with my vertical engine  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on March 03, 2016, 09:50:09 PM
Hi Roger,
Cam timing is correct. As far as ignition timing I always start at about 15 degrees to get the engines running. From there I adjust to where the engine seems to run it's best and then retard a few degrees.
Other than a couple of engines most always take quite a bit of tinkering, modifying and adjusting to get them to run like I want. With this engine the dual carb setup is something I've never done before so I'm sure it will take a little adjusting also. It's hard when you have to wait for the weather to cooperate but next week were supposed to have a couple of warm days so stay tuned.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Don1966 on March 04, 2016, 12:15:29 AM
Just tuned in on the engine post George and sorry to hear your still having issues. But I guess it's isn't something you haven't dealt with before. We will be waiting for the outcome and have no doubt you will prevail.

Don
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: sshire on March 04, 2016, 12:26:30 PM
George
You know, and we all know, that it's going to run in superb fashion. My vote is for the drag of all those "new" rings. Once broken in, I'm betting it will run like your other engines when I see it at NAMES.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: fumopuc on March 04, 2016, 08:21:45 PM
 Hi George, take the time needed for necessary R&D work and you will get it. Waiting with patience for your next steps.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: CHP on March 04, 2016, 11:52:56 PM
George
I feel sorry for you  :'( having to change so wonderful parts   :'(

now that I'm done crying ;) if I can suggest something, especially because
you think it's a matter of c/r

I would try it with different kind of fuel, gas, super, ethanol, in your case
I would go with regular with octane booster if this solve your problem
you will be sure you need more c/r

good luck
 :cheers:
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Mayhugh1 on June 21, 2016, 10:23:06 PM
George,
Have you been able to make any more progress, either forward or backward, on your flat head?
Terry
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on June 22, 2016, 03:16:13 AM
Terry,
Thanks so much for your interest. This one really has me stymied! I've done head changes, piston changes and ring changes. I'm amassing a stack of experimental parts that's ludicrous.
Here's what seems to be the problem currently. I started wth the first set of Pistons having just 2 compression rings, made to my own sizes. When I spun the engine in the lathe to break things in I was getting oil past the rings. Even after extended run-in time. When I put in the second set of Pistons I went strictly with Trimbles's numbers, and added oil rings. I have never made oil rings this small (.830 bore) so they were kind of experimental in design. Run-in seemed to produce the same results, oil migrating past the rings. At this point I started from square one. I took the whole engine apart, made a new lap and meticulously honed each cylinder until they were round and true to each other with the measuring tools I have available. This made the bores .0015 larger than original which necessitated new pistons, and rings.
I made the new rings the same dimensions as the previous set, except that they were made the new bore size. Same results! Once again I took out all the pistons and rods, took off the oil rings, made a chucking fixture to hold the pistons true and recut the oil ring grooves for slightly wider, stiffer rings. This explanation is actually the condensed version. I have taken the screws in and out of the block so many times that the threads will probably start to fail in the near future.
When I try to run the engine it has good vacuum, good compression, adjusted timing, my best ignition box etc. etc. It will try to start but won't make enough power to keep running. When I continue to crank it over it becomes flooded. The last time it did that I let it sit on the bench overnight and the next day when I pulled the heads the cylinders were still full of oily gas so the rings are sealed otherwise it would have leaked back into the crankcase.
If I could just get it to run for 10 seconds on it's own I could better diagnose the problems.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Roger B on June 22, 2016, 07:15:39 AM
Two really basic questions that I am sure you have addressed:

Is the oil level in the sump too high?

Is the crankcase breather large enough?
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Hopper on June 22, 2016, 09:36:31 AM
GB, be careful not to make your combustion chambers too small, ie compression too high, or you will impede gas flow in and out of the cylinder.
I mess about with old Flathead Harley engines and the rule of thumb is a maximum compression of 6:1 before you start to restrict gas flow in the "throat" between the valve pocket and the cylinder. The other critical area is to leave clearance around the back side of the valves and above the valves so gas can flow up and over the valve from the masked side.

Harley raced Flathead engines right up to 1969, at which point they were lapping the Daytona Speed bowl at 149.9mph with a compression of 5:1. Gas flow was found to be more important than compression.
On their street bikes, standard compression was 6:1 and the military models were 5:1 for low grade fuel.

I know the (full sized) Ford Flathead guys still use Harley KR racer combustion chamber shapes as the ultimate role model when building performance engines.

If you google Harley KR combustion chamber, there is a wealth of information out there ranging from downloads of the original race bike manuals (including detailed drawings of combustion chambers) to discussion of what guys in vintage racing are doing today.

How relevant this full sized stuff is to model-sized engines I don't have the miniature experience to know firsthand but it might be worth keeping in mind.

And beware of getting addicted to the dark art of squeezing maximum performance out of this least efficient of combustion chamber formats!
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: keith5700 on June 22, 2016, 10:31:34 AM
George, do you pre-heat the engine before trying to start it?
the only way I could get the v8 and the v10 to start the first times was to pre-heat the water to about 50c.
I now have a heating element built into the water tank and always heat the engine before running.
I haven't programmed the Megasquirt for cold starts yet, its bad enough getting v10 to start at all!
Good luck.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on June 22, 2016, 12:53:36 PM
Hi Roger,
This is a full pressure oil system. It has a pump driven off of the rear of the camshaft just like the full sized engine. The oil supply is only in the deepest part of the pan and the rods never get to it like a splash system. When the engine is turning over in the lathe there is no vacuum signal at the crankcase breather tube. The lifter valley has four .156 holes drilled through to the crankcase to vent any pressure that might arise but the engine never starts so there is no blow-by pressure at this point. As crazy as it might seem it is possible that it is spraying so much oil around inside that the rings can't wipe it clean. I have other engines with oil pressure systems and have never had a problem with them so this is an unknown.
Kieth,
I haven't tried preheating the engine prior to starting. I have never had to do this with my other engines, V-8, Holt, six, V-twin etc. so I never gave it any  thought.
Hopper,
I have given some serious thought about what you say. Having worked on engines, both car and motorcycle, over the years and read about combustion chamber design for both 2 and 4 cycle engines there could be some validity, even in model size, in this regard. I currently have 2 sets of full heads and another set of just the combustion chamber side laying on my bench. Like I said I have a pile of extra parts.
Thanks everyone for your suggestions. Believe me I take all of them seriously at this point.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Mosey on June 22, 2016, 01:47:36 PM
George,
Please disregard my questions coming from the rank beginner.
I am thinking of putting studs instead of bolts in my engine because the bolts may ruin the threads in the block from taking it apart so many times.
I wonder if there is a handy way of performing a leakdown of my cylinders to find and fix my poor compression? Presently I am using a large rubber syringe to pressurize the combustion chambers, getting 45 seconds of leakdown, pumping in thru an adapter in the sparkplug hole.
Regards and stick to it.
Mosey
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on June 22, 2016, 02:33:50 PM
Hi Mosey,
I'm not saying that some sort of leak-down apparatus wouldn't work but for our work on small engines I'm not sure if the reading would be accurate enough to mean anything.
I have miniature compression gauges that I have made and they at least give an indication that the engine even has compression. I have a threaded adapter that goes into the spark plug hole. It is drilled through and then counterbored leaving a seat right near the very tip. A spring loaded ball bearing is inserted into the adapter as a check valve. You need the check valve right at the tip otherwise you're reading some of the volume of the adapter.
Onto this adapter I screw a very small pressure gauge to get my readings. While spinning the engine over the throttle needs to be wide open.
The usual way of checking an engine's compression is the old seat-of-the-pants method. Turn it over and if it feels like it has resistance coming up on compression you're good to go.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Roger B on June 22, 2016, 03:47:29 PM
" As crazy as it might seem it is possible that it is spraying so much oil around inside that the rings can't wipe it clean. I have other engines with oil pressure systems and have never had a problem with them so this is an unknown."

This was the direction I was thinking in. I can't imagine that you have suddenly become unable to make good fitting pistons, bores and rings so the next step was to look for too much oil reaching the bores  :headscratch:
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Mayhugh1 on June 22, 2016, 07:04:19 PM
George,
I'm not sure I would link the oil control to the no-start problem. I don't think it is at all unusual for the engine to pump oil into the combustion chamber while being spun with an external source. I've seen this on all the engines I've built even though I knew the rings are good. Without combustion pressure to push the rings against the cylinder walls any oil that finds itself above the oil ring eventually works its way into the combustion chamber. Windage will wash each cylinder walls with varying amounts of oil depending on a multitude of factors and the amount of oil pumped into the combustion chamber will likely vary among cylinders. I'd quit focusing on the oil, rings, etc.
With respect to the no-start, you've looked at all the common issues that normally plague us on bringing up a new engine of a known design. Since yours is a brand new design there are more out-of-the-box things to consider. From the symptoms you describe, I think I would wonder if the flame might be getting extinguished before it has a chance to fully propagate throughout the combustion chamber. Widening the plug gap maybe by 50% or more and dumping much more energy into the spark may help launch the flame front. Pre-heating the engine may also help sustain the flame during starting until the engine is broken in and its friction decreases. Spinning the engine during start-up much faster than you already are may also help. Ron Colonna found the cranking speed to be his no-start problem in his one-of-a-kind Novi. At least these are a few 'easy' things to try if you haven't already thought of them. -Terry
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on June 22, 2016, 07:20:31 PM
" As crazy as it might seem it is possible that it is spraying so much oil around inside that the rings can't wipe it clean. I have other engines with oil pressure systems and have never had a problem with them so this is an unknown."

This was the direction I was thinking in. I can't imagine that you have suddenly become unable to make good fitting pistons, bores and rings so the next step was to look for too much oil reaching the bores  :headscratch:

George,  I wonder if Roger and Terry may both be correct.  Have you built "too good of a pump" Can it be producing too much pressure for everything else to keep up?    I've seen broken springs and stuck relief valves do weird stuff in 1:1 scale

Cletus
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: steamer on June 22, 2016, 09:33:24 PM
Check to see if you're pulling oil into the intake somewhere......a hole drilled too deep?.....a bad gasket?.....wouldn't take much
'
I'm having a hard time believing it's coming by the rings....not with you making the parts, and after all the engines you've made.....

Cast a weather eye...maybe even pull the manifold off and crank the pump......It just could be something dumb like that...

Dave
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: sid pileski on June 23, 2016, 04:57:32 PM
George-

I've followed your build with great interest. I know these damn little things can be so frustrating!!
Especially with the level of care you put into your work.

Just an odd thought. What if you were to replace the current oil with a synthetic two stroke oil?
Or, god forbid, drain the oil completely, just to see if you can get it running?
I've build singles wiith open cases and just assembly lube that run for minutes at a time. (I'm certain you have too).

Heck, even full scale engines not under any load will run for who knows how long. I remember HotRod magazine doing
a test on, IIRC, and LS1 engine with no oil to see how long it would last.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Art K on June 23, 2016, 08:41:08 PM
George,
I can't say that I have any tidbits of knowledge to add. But some of the things that have been mentioned are well thought out and worth checking into. I have on doubt that you will sort it out, and we'll soon be listening to that V8 purrr...
Art
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on June 24, 2016, 03:48:47 AM
Hi Sid,
Believe me I have thought of that! I'm going to continue experimenting until I find a solution. I'll keep everyone informed.
Thanks for all the replies.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Mosey on June 24, 2016, 02:28:50 PM
Udo Gietl, the father of Superbikes, and brilliant engine builder, broke in his R90S BMW engines with no oil in them. Yup, completely dry. These engines won the Daytona Superbike race in 1973-4. I don't know how long he ran them dry, but it could eliminate the oiling/starting problem. Just a thought.
Mosey
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Mayhugh1 on August 02, 2016, 06:50:42 PM
George,
Have you been able make any more progress on your Flathead? Edison once said that learning about the things that don't work is as much progress as learning about the things that do. - Terry
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Don1966 on October 06, 2018, 06:09:16 PM
Hi George just wondering if this engine has ever been completed and that I may of missed it.

Don
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: Doc on October 06, 2018, 07:17:45 PM
George,
Have you been able make any more progress on your Flathead? Edison once said that learning about the things that don't work is as much progress as learning about the things that do. - Terry

I do like that saying! I always said if you can't admit you made an error you will never learn ( I worked with a guy that never made and error always some one else fault) I can say I don't miss him he was a real pain to deal with.
  But to me half the fun in this hobby is finding out what will not work and discovering  things that by all right shouldn't work but do.
Title: Re: Flathead V-8
Post by: gbritnell on October 07, 2018, 12:46:13 AM
Hi Doc, Don, Terry and Mosey,
It's on page 2 in the Engines sub forum under Fordillac running. It was a long trial period but for the time being I think everything is sorted out.
Thanks for asking.
gbritnell