Model Engine Maker

Help! => Specific Engine Help => Topic started by: Gary Brooke on February 25, 2014, 10:32:08 PM

Title: RUST
Post by: Gary Brooke on February 25, 2014, 10:32:08 PM
Hi folks
Just got back into the shed after a long layoff. To find that I had a major visit from the rust monster. Thankfully the lathe is okay just a bit on the cast iron chuck. same with the pillar drill. The real damage is to the BMS parts off my B1 loco and stock off metal.So I'm looking for salvage advice. Also would it be advisable to heat up the shed to drive out damp before firing up the lathe.
Rgds Gary
Title: Re: RUST
Post by: zeeprogrammer on February 25, 2014, 10:47:45 PM
I'd be interested in this too.
It would also be helpful if people chime in with suggestions for when you know your machines won't be used for a while. How to cover, protect, etc.
Title: Re: RUST
Post by: Rustkolector on February 26, 2014, 04:15:33 AM
Gary,
For mild rust, citric acid (small amounts found in the canning section of grocery store) works well, but requires immersion for a few hours. Also, any commercial rust removal product or concrete etch product based on phosphoric acid can be used on heavier rust. It dissolves only the iron oxide and should not affect the base metal finish if diluted. Degrease and test a patch first to determine dilution rate. It might turn black, but cleans up with warm water and a brush. Electrolysis is used most often by antique restorers, but requires total immersion and extensive set up.

Jeff
Title: Re: RUST
Post by: philjoe5 on February 26, 2014, 04:28:28 AM
Ive used this product on engine parts, like cooling hoppers and cylinder jackets and it works very well

http://www.evapo-rust.com/

I don't know if it is suitable for precision machinery but I understand it doesn't attack the base metal

Cheers,
Phil
Title: Re: RUST
Post by: rklopp on February 26, 2014, 05:38:29 AM
+1 on the Evap-O-Rust, but it's expensive. I used it to restore a 1943 Delta drill press that was rather rusty on all the steel parts plus the table. The rust really disappeared, leaving a dull gray finish typical of unfinished steel. I only have to keep the surfaces lightly oiled to prevent re-rusting, because I live in dry California that is even drier due to a drought.
Title: Re: RUST
Post by: Stuart on February 26, 2014, 09:36:42 AM
try a some in citric acid ( lemon juice ) seems to work ok

bet your BMS was EN1a reverts to iron oxide very quickly

take a look here

http://madmodder.net/index.php/topic,9580.0.html


Stuart
Title: Re: RUST
Post by: Jo on February 26, 2014, 10:21:11 AM
Gary,

You need to get that moisture out: Cold machines and hot moist air is what the rust monster thrives in. Heat the machines, greenhouse heaters, fan heaters directly onto the machines, light fittings (I have a 120W spot fitting on the end of a cable that I sit on the lathe bed). Then you need to get the moisture out: Dehumidifiers, open the doors on hot ( :lolb:) sunny days, find things that are more attractive to the moisture like scrunched up newspaper, cardboard...

Then the evil  :o rust. The cheapest and most readily available substance is tannic acid (cold tea). But your machine tools are unlikely to fit in a tea cup or bath so you will need to apply the treatment to the horizontal/vertical surfaces, so a jelly based anti rust substance is needed. Then it is a case of wire wool and elbow grease  :shrug: I found letting the anti rust jelly have its go then putting more on the wire wool helped take the residue off. Not forgetting to make sure that you fully protect what you have achieved before you do the next bit. It is difficult but look at what you have achieved, not what is still to go and remember if it is already rusted then future corrosion will be slower  ;).

Jo
Title: Re: RUST
Post by: sco on February 26, 2014, 10:40:54 AM
I also use heaters to keep the machines warm, these are not too expensive; http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Heating/Electric+Heaters+Dryers/Tubular+Heater+60W+55+x+305mm/d230/sd3168/p32265 (http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Heating/Electric+Heaters+Dryers/Tubular+Heater+60W+55+x+305mm/d230/sd3168/p32265)

Then I use these http://www.workshopheaven.com/tools/Shield_Technology_ToolGuard_VCI.html (http://www.workshopheaven.com/tools/Shield_Technology_ToolGuard_VCI.html) for sensitive stuff stored in drawers.

Simon.
Title: Re: RUST
Post by: dalem9 on February 26, 2014, 10:50:57 AM
Hi all I have to deal with this all the time .What works great for me is to take wd 40 and mix about 1/10 part oil with it . Any motor oil will do . Then spary it on all bare metal . The wd will evap. and leave a thin coat of oil on it . I do this alot at the worse times of the year. And evap-o-rust is an amazing product .It really works great. Hope this helps , Dale
Title: Re: RUST
Post by: Ian S C on February 26, 2014, 12:31:38 PM
If you go the citric acid way,  you will get it cheaper at the Home Brew shop, you may be able to get it at a garden shop even cheaper.   Ian S C
Title: Re: RUST
Post by: Arbalest on February 26, 2014, 03:06:59 PM
This is the best way I've found to remove rust:

http://fergusonenthusiasts.com/restoration%20helps/tech/Rust%20Removal%20Using%20a%20Battery%20Charger.pdf
Title: Re: RUST
Post by: mklotz on February 26, 2014, 04:33:12 PM
I'm fortunate to live in a semi-desert climate so, despite being within sight of the Pacific, rust in the Garaj Mahal is virtually unknown unless the object is made from 12L14.

However, I do remember reading somewhere that, when using these derusting solutions, one should remove any springs as the chemical reaction can damage them.  No personal experience but it's worth passing the warning along.

If light bulb heaters are difficult or impossible to use in your situation, there are a number of items used in gun safes that offer alternatives.  Amazon sells a variety of these; see the URL below...


http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=gun+safe+heater&tag=googhydr-20&index=aps&hvadid=34205999507&hvpos=1t1&hvexid=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=1790641241727887215&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=b&hvdev=c&ref=pd_sl_50puoyhrwn_b
Title: Re: RUST
Post by: Steam Haulage on February 26, 2014, 08:25:32 PM
Marv,

Most de-rusting products rely on some form of acid reaction; when I first worked in that field I was warned that embrittlement was due to hydrogen being produced within the metal part. Would you believe it was known as 'hydrogen embrittlement'? A lot of effort was put in to reduce the effect in pretreatment baths. I think that Amchem published some material describing how their chemistry should be used to take care of this problem.

I forget the exact chemistry and I've lost my notebook which had all the gems I was given by the old timers, as well as notes about all the new technology emerging as a by-product of WWII.

Jerry
Title: Re: RUST
Post by: RickBarnes on February 27, 2014, 03:10:44 AM
Jo stated what I've always heard for tools in an unseated shop.  Covering the machines is supposed to keep the condensation causing the rust from forming on the machine.  At the same time, I've heard some say never cover the machine because it doesn't let the moisture evaporate.  Covering mine has worked for me in a heated basement.
Title: Re: RUST
Post by: philjoe5 on February 27, 2014, 03:32:22 AM
There are derusting agents that work on the oxidized or "ionic" iron.  They're called chelating agents and Evapo-rust works this way.  The advantage of chelating agents is that they don't attack the base metal. 

Cheers,
Phil
Title: Re: RUST
Post by: Alan Haisley on February 27, 2014, 06:50:39 PM
If possible, throw a plastic blanket over the machine and burn a 40W light bulb or similar source of small heat under the blanket. It should only take a small temperature differential to keep the moisture outside.  :old:
Title: Re: RUST
Post by: sco on February 27, 2014, 07:49:52 PM
Isn't plastic the worst thing as it traps the moisture in so you get a green house effect?
Title: Re: RUST
Post by: Alan Haisley on February 27, 2014, 09:27:38 PM
Isn't plastic the worst thing as it traps the moisture in so you get a green house effect?
Without the heat source it would be bad but so long as the temperature under the sheet is more than that outside the sheet it should work. A lot of the "green house effect" comes from plant respiration along with watering the plants.

Alan