Model Engine Maker

Engines => Your Own Design => Topic started by: Brian Rupnow on October 16, 2019, 11:26:12 PM

Title: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 16, 2019, 11:26:12 PM
I'm all "engined out". I've been thinking about something to build and run with one of my engines. I already have a sawmill, a buzz saw, a steam donkey winch, a drag saw and a wood splitter. I have been thinking of an edger. Once a log has went thru the main-saw in a sawmill, the resulting boards have bark on the outer edges. This requires a second cut to be made to remove the strip on each side of the board which are known as "edgings". Old school edgers had two sawblades on a common shaft. One sawblade was "fixed" in position, while the other sawblade could be moved on the shaft to accommodate different board widths. They also had powered pressure rolls on the outfeed and infeed to draw the uncut board into the saws and to feed it out the other side when the cut was finished. A later development were "Bull-Edgers" which had multiple blades with spacers between them, so a wide board could be fed in and finish size narrower boards and two "edgings" would come out. The edgings on each side fell down onto a conveyor that took them to the chipper, while the boards passed on thru to the sorting shed to be sorted, graded, and stacked to dry. I think that one of the old style edgers might be fun to build. The blade on my buzz saw is about 3 3/8" diameter and I can cut "logs" of 1" diameter into stovewood lengths. (about 1 1/2" long). I want to do a bit of research and see if there are blades about 2" in diameter.--I could probably use slitting saws intended for metal work.
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/thr...hlight=sawmill
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/thr...hlight=sawmill
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/thr...hlight=sawmill
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/thr...ey+steam+winch
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/thr...highlight=drag
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 16, 2019, 11:26:49 PM
Okay--Lets think about what I need. Engine with a governor--Yep, I have half a dozen of those. 2" diameter sawblades--Yep, I can order them from Proxon or Harbor Freight. Shafting will be cold rolled steel in "stock" sizes . One sawblade is fixed--no problem. One sawblade has to be able to slide along the shaft but still be powered by the shaft, to adjust for different board widths. Maybe a double keyway, one on both sides of the shaft and long keys, with two keyways in the moveable sawblade hub.Two powered rolls, and two pressure rolls for infeed and outfeed. Not sure at the moment, but maybe diamond knurl 4 pieces of cold rolled steel to act as textured finish on rolls. Some profiled pieces of flatbar to act as anti-kickbacks on the infeed side of the edger. A frame to hold all the bearings and shafts, etc, in place. An infeed and an outfeed table---This is where I broke one of my own rules---NEVER THROW ANYTHING AWAY!!! When I was building my sawmill, some kind fellow in USA sent me a whole bag of 3/4" square oak. I used it to build my sawmill carriage, and hung the bag with the rest of the oak on a nail in my storage closet. Couple of years ago in a cleaning frenzy, I thought, "Aw heck, I'm never going to use that stuff", so I pitched it out. Dumb Bastard!!! The sawblades are going to have to run at engine speed 1200 rpm or a bit faster. The infeed and outfeed rollers are going to have to run at considerably lower speeds, so some gearing is going to be called for. What have I missed?---Brian
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 16, 2019, 11:27:47 PM
A bit of preliminary layout work shows the two 2" diameter Proxxon blades. Since the center hole on these blades comes in at 13/32" diameter, that pretty well dictates the size of hub I can have. And of course, the hub outer diameter  pretty much dictates what the hub inner diameter can be. This in turn, dictates the size the shaft will be. Turns out I can use a 1/4" diameter shaft, which should work fine. The fixed blade is going to be locked in one position on the shaft. The moveable blade (which is moved to accommodate different board widths) must be driven in sync with the fixed blade, so to do that we have a couple of long keyways in the shaft, and a couple of keyways in the hub of the moveable blade assembly. As in all designs, the project must start with the items which are purchased and then the size of everything around the purchased components is "custom sized" to accommodate the purchased part, which in this case is the sawblades.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/7100/VkDfZE.jpg)
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 16, 2019, 11:28:25 PM
The edger has two driven rollers as shown, along with two pressure rollers from the top (not shown). The position of the top side of these driven rollers is determined by the fact that the underside of the board passing thru the edger does not interfere with the hubs on the saw blades. Positioning in the other plane is established by the fact that you don't want them so close to the sawblade that they touch it, and you don't want them so far away from the blade that the board will "bend" when it encounters the blade.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/1123/fb5Qce.jpg)
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 16, 2019, 11:29:02 PM
Locating all of the rollers and bearings lets me then design a frame to support everything. Still have to design infeed and outfeed tables and a "fence" to guide the board straight into the rollers. This all goes very rapidly, but will slow down a bit when I start adding the belts and sprockets which power the saw and the bottom rollers.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/4917/zEOJSv.jpg)
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 16, 2019, 11:29:29 PM
Add in an infeed table and an outfeed table, along with a material guide/fence, and that's almost got it. Only things missing are the anti-kickback fingers on the infeed side and the drives.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/6370/EX06Jp.jpg)
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 16, 2019, 11:30:00 PM
Looking up from underneath you can see the long handle sticking out at the infeed end. This handle position is adjusted by the "edger man" to change the distance between the saw blades to cut different widths of board.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/8646/LxRaP6.jpg)
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 16, 2019, 11:30:34 PM
Today I am working on the drive for the saw blades and for the infeed and outfeed rollers. The rollers will operate at a much lower speed than the sawblade. This calls for a bit of trickery. In this picture you see a gear reducer I built about 10 years ago, with a sprocket on the output shaft. As positioned it would provide a great drive for the rollers, but any drive to the sawblades is totally blocked. I've had that small 8:1 gearbox setting around here for ten years, but today is the first time that I've actually went ahead and modelled it.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/4743/aOTjsN.jpg)
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 16, 2019, 11:33:34 PM
 The rollers under the board and the sawblades have to rotate different directions. Best way to address that is with a bit of overhead lineshaft. The engine, clutch, and gear reducer all parts that I currently have setting in my office.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/8111/eaMAM7.jpg)
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: crueby on October 17, 2019, 12:34:32 AM
I love your design process, working out a seemingly simple machine with lots of little complexity. Will be following along...


 :popcorn:
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 17, 2019, 02:59:39 PM
I had to do some calling around to my old sawmill contacts, but I finally come up with a good edger man.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/9180/sxT2ie.jpg)
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: crueby on October 17, 2019, 03:11:23 PM
He needed proper safety gear - ear muffs and glasses!
(https://i.postimg.cc/BntPFKwZ/Edger-Man.jpg)
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Jasonb on October 17, 2019, 05:21:20 PM
What is the point of the two high up gears? at 1:1 they don't look to do anything so you could just as well run the output pulley on the same shaft as the input.

Could also save a lot of drag by just taking the drive into the blade and gearing down on the same side to drive the rollers, changing direction with the gears if needed.
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: crueby on October 17, 2019, 05:32:25 PM
What is the point of the two high up gears? at 1:1 they don't look to do anything so you could just as well run the output pulley on the same shaft as the input.

Could also save a lot of drag by just taking the drive into the blade and gearing down on the same side to drive the rollers, changing direction with the gears if needed.
I think they are there to change directions, the belt coming down on the far side goes the opposite direction as the belt on the near side, one to run blade and one to run feed rollers.
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Jasonb on October 17, 2019, 06:48:15 PM
That's why I said the gearbox could also change direction.

But there does seem to be a lot of shafts and pullies that are not needed, just needs a simple up and under belt to drive the two rollers off the blade shaft, small drive and large feed roller pulleys makes sure the blade spins up and the wood feeds through slowly.

Infeed and outfeed fences should also be offset and the "L" shaped outfeed fence won't work
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 17, 2019, 07:02:54 PM
I actually did some real work today. I can buy the 12 tooth sprockets dirt cheap from the local Princess Auto, but they have no hub. First job is to make hubs for them. The material in those hubs was supposed to be cold rolled steel, but it machined a lot like 12L14. It seems to take brazing all right--I'll find out when I clean everything up.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/9186/0vVqvc.jpg)
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 17, 2019, 08:16:56 PM
The sprockets complete with hubs turned out quite well. If they fall apart at some point, I'll know you can't braze 12L14 steel.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/8996/06FJee.jpg)
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 17, 2019, 08:22:22 PM
Jason--The picture you posted is very interesting. I hadn't seen that pic before. My gear reducer's input and output shaft rotate the same direction. The powered rollers on the underside of the board need to turn the opposite way to the sawblades. The two gears were the quickest way to get a reverse in there.---Brian
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Jasonb on October 17, 2019, 08:42:14 PM
This is it in action, simple drive train.

ULYbv159ofc
Also notice how on the last true edging cut the infeed fence has been moved to the operators left and the fixed outfeed fence is inline with the blade so it guides the work as it comes off the saw. The moving infeed fence also allows for things like cutting a previously edged 6x1 into three 2x1s

You can't have the outfeed like yours as an L shape sitting on the outfeed table as the wood needs to pass either side.
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Craig DeShong on October 18, 2019, 02:04:12 PM
Interesting project.  You need to prepare lots of popcorn for this one. :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Art K on October 18, 2019, 04:59:32 PM
Brian,
I'm all caught up now. I love the idea of this project, a very mechanical gadget. I like the lever adjusting the moveable saw blade. I will be following along.
Art
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 18, 2019, 11:47:29 PM
Drove up north to see my 99 year old mom today, and made a side trip on my way back to see my best friend forever who had a stroke. Mom is okay, but has dropped a lot of her memories. Best friend, who is the same age as me had a bad stroke, was in hospital for three weeks and come home yesterday. He has no lasting physical effects, but has aphasia. He can't speak, can't spell, but can understand when others speak to him. He was very frustrated today, trying to tell me things but couldn't speak. He can get a few words out, and I'm sure that over the winter he will regain most of his speaking ability. One of my 2" diameter Proxxon saw-blades was delivered today, other is on back order. It is very sharp, but has no "offset" to the teeth at all. I really wish I had access to small inexpensive toothed belts and pulleys, but since I don't I will use O-rings instead. Hi Art and Craig, glad to hear from you.---Brian
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 19, 2019, 12:02:27 AM
Jason--I watched the video half a dozen times. I agree, you are correct about the "fence". I will redesign the "fence" to be on the infeed side only.  It appears that there is a thin strip of metal on the outfeed side, exactly in line with the fixed sawblade. I'm not exactly sure why it is there, but I will see if I can change my design to incorporate something similar on my edger. My Proxxon blades are only 0.020" thick, so that may be easier said than done. As for all the extra shafts and pulleys, I rather like them, so they will stay. O-rings are cheap. If I had a cheap source for toothed belts and pulleys, I would use them instead.
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: MJM460 on October 19, 2019, 03:51:47 AM
Hi Brian, that thin blade in line with the saw is to prevent the timber from curling back to close the cut which tends to grab the saw blade, not good on the back end of the blade as it tends to lift the timber and can result in kickback.

On a table saw, it also provides a simple way to support a guard.

It might be worth setting those teeth on the slitting saw blade for use on wood.  A simple jig can do it if you don’t have the hand sawset device used with wood saws.  The off set reduces the friction of the wood on the side of the blade behind the cut.  A hand saw without offset is very difficult to use, and a power saw without it would I suspect heat up and jam.

I hope your friend is soon on the way to a more full recovery.

MJM460
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: crueby on October 19, 2019, 03:55:47 AM
Brian, proxxon does make a carbide tipped blade that is thicker, takes an aggressive but smooth cut, I use one on my micromark table saw. Maybe one of those would help?
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Jasonb on October 19, 2019, 07:19:26 AM
As well as acting like a riving knife that you find on a table saw (though most US saw users seem to remove them) the long length of the outfeed "fence" will guide the now straight edge of the board, the infeed fence does nothing when edging a waney edge board as the board won't be straight so can't be run against the infeed fence. This is why the infeed fence can easily be moved away to the left rather than being fixed as yours seems to be.

Although only a single blade one you can see how the long outfeed "fence" guides the cut board to keep the cut straight and the infeed is well out of the way of the waney edged board

RMReVjl42m0
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 19, 2019, 05:45:26 PM
First trick of the day was to make a hub for the sawblade so I can test it and see if it cuts. I made the hub as shown in the picture, then found a 3/8" fine thread nut and locked it up tight against the saw blade. I used some 638 Loctite on the threads. Then I drilled and tapped #6-32 thru the nut and the machined hub for a set-screw to lock the hub onto the saw shaft. Next trick will be to set the blade up on something to see if it does cut the boards  from my sawmill.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/8770/eWXfIW.jpg)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/7140/0FSYeU.jpg)
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 19, 2019, 07:51:49 PM
This video shows a test of the 2" Proxxon blade cutting lumber.
kKCZ2VpF2X8
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: crueby on October 19, 2019, 08:39:41 PM
Excellent way to get an idea of the feed rate that the model will need.   :popcorn:
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 19, 2019, 09:37:39 PM
This is the textured infeed roller. There will be another exactly like it for the outfeed.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/4937/HGkPdj.jpg)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/912/Cr6NFn.jpg)
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Jasonb on October 20, 2019, 07:06:16 AM
Excellent way to get an idea of the feed rate that the model will need.   :popcorn:

looks like it will need about 1;100 to get that sort of feed rate with 1/2" rollers

From video about 6 seconds to cut 1.5" which is the circumference of a roller

So 10 turns per minute feed

970 / 10 = 97:1
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: nonort! on October 20, 2019, 11:07:50 AM
Hi Guys I've never posted on here before so here goes. In my long distant youth I did an apprenticeship with 'Stenner of Tiverton' an old English company, spawned from Stenner and Gunn. Just couple of points. The riving knife is there to stop the timber closing onto the back of the blade and stop it lifting the timber this keeps the cut straight. On all Stenner machines the saw tables and fences where finished on a planer. The surface finish was a series of shallow dips at about 3/8" pitch and approximately 1/64" deep. This process was carried out to stop the timber sticking to the sliding surfaces particularly when wet or green timber was being sawn. The feed rollers were more of a ratchet form as a vee form clogs very quickly. In closing the blade will need a set in the teeth and a deep gullet to clear the saw dust. The biggest circular saw that Stenner built was for the Swedish market and had two 84" blades set above one another and slightly behind one another. This timber was frozen? The whole contraption was driven by three Rolls Royce engines one for each saw and one for the hydraulic feed gear. It all came apart and was transported on sledges with wheels added when required.
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 20, 2019, 05:50:04 PM
This mornings work was to complete the second "textured" drive roller and both plain "pinch" rollers.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/2507/aiXTwd.jpg)
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 20, 2019, 07:44:12 PM
I'm going to have to spend some money tomorrow. I want all the pillow block bearings (bushings) to be a contrasting color. If I was planning on edging a hundred board feet a day, I would definitely make them all from bronze. For the sake of a model, I can probably get away with brass.
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 21, 2019, 03:16:03 PM
I've learned more about sawmill edgers in the last week than I ever have in my life!! One of the things all edgers have in common is an adjustable fence on the infeed fence. The setting of the moveable portion of infeed fence is to allow wider or narrower edgings from the side of the board.--for instance if you have a rough sawn board with a big bark inclusion on the side, you can adjust the moveable fence to cut a wider edging than normal.   
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/6241/5dTDTM.jpg)
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 21, 2019, 08:56:14 PM
Today I made the two spring loaded brackets which support the pressure roll bearings. They don't look that involved, but I've managed to spend the entire day building them.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/7329/ZAEaUi.jpg)
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on October 22, 2019, 12:59:13 PM
Hello Brian

Many  :ThumbsUp: to this project.

 :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 22, 2019, 06:08:35 PM
So far today I've managed to whittle out four "pillow blocks" for mounting the pressure rolls. They still need to be polished to remove any remaining machining marks. They are made from brass, which will work fine, since this edger when finished isn't going to see a lot of hours. On average it is taking about 1 hour per pillow block, which sounds ridiculous, but it is what it is.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/7706/nsFaCc.jpg)
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 23, 2019, 05:43:10 PM
Run, run--fast as you can
You won't catch me, I'm the Pillow Block man.
Dang, there was a lot of time to make ten of these things!!
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/3272/rIjPtE.jpg)
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 23, 2019, 10:05:35 PM
Oil holes will be added. I was more interested in getting them all finished. I still have to polish them up, and I will add the oil holes then.---Brian
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Craig DeShong on October 24, 2019, 03:04:54 AM
 :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Look’in good Brian.  I’m following along.
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 26, 2019, 01:45:53 AM
YES!!!--First assembly. Everything fits and most of the bolts go in. Milestone event!! It's plain that I will have to open a few clearance holes, but all in all I'm very pleased. The true story will be told when I make the two cross-members that bolt the two side-frames in place. It's been a long day.---Brian
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/2797/6InEyg.jpg)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/1385/oxzmfo.jpg)
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: crueby on October 26, 2019, 01:59:58 AM
Yeehah!
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: steamer on October 26, 2019, 12:38:30 PM
Just got caught up Brian....interesting project!   

I like it!

Dave
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 26, 2019, 01:54:51 PM
From what I have read, these edgers had a habit of "kicking back" a board and wounding the operator who was setting the board on the infeed table and pushing it through until the infeed roller grabbed it. I don't want any workman's compensation claims in my mill, so I have added a set of anti-kickback fingers to the assembly.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/7263/UyCeVG.jpg)
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Art K on October 27, 2019, 02:18:49 AM
Brian,
Great addition can't have any workman's comp injuries while on the job.
Art
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 28, 2019, 07:21:21 PM
A change to the top-plate. I was going to make it from clear Lexan, but then today I remembered how sawdust sticks to lexan because of it's electrostatic properties. Top plate will now be made from aluminum.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/5876/pdZpnK.jpg)
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 29, 2019, 12:26:17 AM
I spent a large portion of my morning "fine tuning" my "pillow block" bearings. Real pillow block bearings are self aligning, whereby the actual bearing unit can orbit in the cast iron housing to prevent any binding. My one piece simulated pillow blocks weren't nearly as forgiving. When they were tightened down to the aluminum frame, the shafts were binding very badly and wouldn't rotate. The misalignment was very small. So small that conventional machining wouldn't / couldn't fix it. My reamers are too short to span across both sides of the frame. I ended up coating dummy shafts with #600 aluminum oxide paste and lapping (for lack of a better word) with my electric drill. The dummy shafts were, of course, made long enough to span across the frame and fit through two opposing bearings at once. During the process I removed the bearings one at a time for polishing and the addition of "oil holes". Final step was to remove bearings one at a time for a bath in laquer thinners, then scrubbed inside with a small brush to remove any remaining grit. Doesn't sound like much, but it eat up my morning. Yesterday it rained all day, and I missed my "Fat mans walk". Today was lovely here, so I walked much farther on the forest trails where I hadn't been before to make up for the missed walk yesterday. It was about 58 F today, and many of the leaves have fallen, but enough remain on the trees  that it is still very pretty. Seen a lot of new ground, and my legs are telling me about it tonight.
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 29, 2019, 04:00:56 PM
So, here we are with the new top plate and all of the bearings freed up. I put a stir stick into the edger just to see how it looks. The springs on the pressure rolls aren't strong enough, but they are out of a kit I had with about a thousand springs in it. I will buy stronger springs next time I'm downtown. I think that now I can go ahead with the infeed and outfeed tables and their end stands.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/1691/SHPIwx.jpg)
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 30, 2019, 02:56:30 PM
Well, that almost finishes the easy parts. I still have to build and assemble the fixed and moveable fences, and then it will be the moveable saw hub and mechanism for shifting it right or left.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/8346/KBvVND.jpg)
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: crueby on October 30, 2019, 02:57:33 PM
This is going to be a fun one to run with your engines!
 :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 30, 2019, 03:42:49 PM
Yes Chris, it should be fun. The edger itself is almost finished. The gear reducer and clutch and engine are all finished. It shouldn't take much more than another week or so to have everything ready.---Brian
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 30, 2019, 09:04:57 PM
So, after far more time than I thought it was going to take, we have an adjustable fence. I haven't yet put the locking mechanism in that makes the moveable fence hold it's position. Adjusting the position of the fence allows the edger man to determine how much he actually wants to trim from the side of a board.Guess the locking mechanism will be tomorrows job.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/5927/UsANx0.jpg)
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: J.L. on October 30, 2019, 09:23:29 PM
Hi Brian,

This is a significant build!
 
Excellent planning and metal work.

You certainely know what you are doing.

Cheers...John
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 30, 2019, 10:03:55 PM
Thanks John.--That's the nicest thing anybody's said to me so far today!! :pinkelephant: :pinkelephant:
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Craig DeShong on October 31, 2019, 08:20:57 PM
We have one of these at the North Carolina State Fair included with the saw mill exhibit.  I’ve run the thing a few times, but just about the time i get ‘the hang of it’ the fair is over an it’s learn all over again next year!

Maybe I should build your model so I can keep ‘in practice’.   :Lol:
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on October 31, 2019, 09:18:48 PM
Craig--thanks for stopping by and having a look. Not an awful lot to show for today, but we do have a lock for the offset fence position.  Tomorrow will be the day to clean all the bits and bobs for the adjustable fence up and "final assemble" them.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/3131/RMOcJL.jpg)
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 01, 2019, 04:47:58 PM
This morning I finished the hub for the moveable saw-blade. The hubs are two part, with 3/8"-24 threads on them. That scrim of Loctite that you see has to be cleaned up after lunch, and then I start work on the shifter link that moves the saw right or left on the shaft, to cut wider or narrower boards.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/1016/fpSGQT.jpg)
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: awake on November 01, 2019, 11:02:37 PM
Hey Brian,

Is it just the picture, or is there some brazing on those sprockets?

Meanwhile, I agree with everyone else - beautiful work!

Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 02, 2019, 12:07:05 AM
It's not brazing---it's silver solder. Those sprockets are sold as just the outer rim and teeth, but no hub. I make my own hubs "to suit" and silver solder them into place. You're right though, it certainly looks like brazing.--Brian
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: mike mott on November 02, 2019, 04:24:49 PM
Just catching up Brian, a very interesting project and is inspiring me to get on with the Deal sawing machine that I have intentions of making after the loco is finished.

Mike
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: awake on November 02, 2019, 07:40:13 PM
It's not brazing---it's silver solder. Those sprockets are sold as just the outer rim and teeth, but no hub. I make my own hubs "to suit" and silver solder them into place. You're right though, it certainly looks like brazing.--Brian

Ah, that makes sense. I had forgotten that you had to solder in a hub.
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 02, 2019, 08:49:42 PM
Today we have something very slick!! The man running the edger has to look at each board he puts through the edger, and estimate how wide he can make the board, and still not leave any wain (bark) on the edges. For the side of the board closest to the fence, he can move the adjustable fence in or out. For the other side of the board, he must be able to move the other saw closer to or farther away from the stationary saw. I've just finished with the mechanism which moves the non-fixed saw, and it is so neat I figured it was worth a short video.
3NPKeKNpfr8(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/4997/lbwPXB.jpg)
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: crueby on November 02, 2019, 09:06:06 PM
Oh, that is excellent!


Wish I was more Southern, would have a 'it is slicker than ....' quote.  That is okay to quote here, at least...  Don!  Whiskey! One of you guys should have a good one for us!!
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: 10KPete on November 03, 2019, 05:51:46 AM
Slicker than wet leaves on a tin roof.

Really neat project, Brian.

Pete
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 03, 2019, 05:58:40 PM
I'm having a lazy day today. I used my broach to put a 1/16" keyway thru the hub of the moveable saw blade, and milled a keyseat in the saw shaft. I have to try and find some 1/16" keystock tomorrow. This is a tricky business, because although the key must be there to transfer torque from the shaft to the blade, it must still allow the sawblade and hub to move along the length of the shaft as shown in the previous post to let the edger-man set the distance between the moveable saw and the fixed saw to select the width of board he wants to "edge".
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/7636/rrHmXx.jpg)
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on November 03, 2019, 08:17:16 PM
Hello Brian,

Can you put a small radius on the top two edges of the Key Stock?

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 03, 2019, 08:19:44 PM
Yes Thomas, I can. I have about six different sanding machines here, and I'm sure one of them could do it with little effort.
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Art K on November 04, 2019, 03:23:27 AM
Brian,
Good to see more progress, the lever that moves the blade works quite well. You'll be edging boards in no time.
Art
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 05, 2019, 06:09:12 PM
This mornings work was to machine a "cap plate" for the gear reducer, and the riser which will support one end of the overhead shafts. The reducer output shaft was shortened, and a sprocket which formerly had a 3/8" bore was "sleeved" to go on the 1/4" reducer output shaft. I am rapidly approaching the point where I have to make a firm decision on whether I use toothed belts and pulleys or machine my own pulleys from aluminum and use rubber O-rings as drive belts. Seeing as I just spent over $500 yesterday for a new milling vice, I'm pretty sure what the answer is going to be.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/3908/kLyQWg.jpg)
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 05, 2019, 08:54:45 PM
An executive decision has been made. I'm going to make my own pulleys and use o-ring drive belts. Originally I had all the pulleys at 2 1/2" diameter, but I have changed that to 2.0" because that is what stock I have. I have stolen the 25 tooth gears off of the reversing winch, because I doubt that I will ever use the reversing winch again.
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Craig DeShong on November 05, 2019, 10:41:24 PM
An executive decision has been made. I'm going to make my own pulleys and use o-ring drive belts.

Brian; you know... you can't take it with you  :lolb:

I'm sure the o-rings will work just fine. :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 06, 2019, 02:26:15 PM
I have an issue. The roller chain that connects the reducer output sprocket to the two textured rollers has no method of tensioning the chain. That's okay, because I can adjust the tension by moving the entire reducer up or down by using spacer blocks until the correct chain tension is reached. (Note that the actual chain itself is not shown in this model.) The problem comes from the fact that the overhead shaft bearing support which is bolted to the reducer moves up or down as the reducer does. The other bearing support which bolts to the side of the edger frame does not. This is a perfect application for self aligning bushings, which are a two piece affair, where the bushing has a spherical outside and the housing it sets in has a spherical inside, but a normal round outside diameter. I need four of these, to support the two 1/2" diameter overhead shafts. There are other things that I can do, but not as neatly as these self aligning bushings would allow. I'm looking for a source for these self aligning bushings that are inexpensive and available in Canada, and I haven't been able to find one.---Brian
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/3753/WCGvc2.jpg)
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 06, 2019, 05:50:17 PM
That seems to work out just about perfect with the #35 chain in place and 1/4" of spacers underneath the gear reducer. I am going to make a plywood sub-base to mount the edger and the reducer to, as seen in the previous post. I can then fine-tune the spacers to give the proper chain tension.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/594/RhuoLT.jpg)
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 07, 2019, 01:11:31 AM
It keeps growing and growing---Tomorrow I will build the plywood sub base and get everything anchored to it before I start messing with shafts and bushings. I haven't built any of the anti-kickback system, but I do have holes drilled and tapped on the infeed side of the main frame. My kid who works at Fastenal is supposedly getting a piece of 1/16" square keystock for me---if he remembers.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/2500/dohk5d.jpg)
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: crueby on November 07, 2019, 01:15:28 AM
Watching along, very interesting.   :popcorn:
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 07, 2019, 11:10:23 PM
I just spent an hour trolling the internet looking for self aligning ball bushings to use for the two 1/2" diameter overhead shafts. My conclusion is that while they might be the perfect thing for this application, they cost more than I am willing to pay. (Which is not that unusual.) I do have a trick that will allow the shafts to turn freely and costs me nothing. Since the gear reducer and the upright attached to it are free to move horizontally +/- about 1/8" and vertically +/- .030" without affecting the way that the roller chain mates with the sprockets, I can drill and ream both of the uprights for 1/2" i.d. oilite bronze bushings, insert the shafts, and let the position of the shaft actually determine where exactly the gear reducer has to set.  I will post more about this when I get the edger and gear reducer positioned on the base which I currently have under way.
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 09, 2019, 06:45:16 PM
I believe this is going to be a beautiful thing. I have been busy the last two days building some small fixtures for a customer, but stopping to add another coat of clear to the plywood base every time I could. This is the first time I have actually set the edger and gear reducer on the base, and I'm happy to see that everything fits the way I had planned.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/4213/fdswfd.jpg)
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 10, 2019, 11:43:02 PM
Found out a few things today. The roller chain is about the right length with 1/8" shims under the gear reducer. I tried adding a half link to the chain length, but that made the chain too long and it was still slack with no spacers under the gear reducer. I dummied up that big pulley on the gear reducer and drove it with an o-ring belt from my electric drill. Everything goes round and round which is always a good thing. I have to put some 0.020" or 0.030" shims under the bearings on the infeed textured roller so the roller sets marginally higher than the top of the infeed table. Right now it is only about 0.005" higher and can't get a good grip on the board to send it through the saw. I picked up my oilite bronze bushings for the two overhead shafts today from Princess Auto. (You can see one of them setting on the infeed table.) I will cut the bushings to the correct length tomorrow and install them in the tower that is bolted to the edger frame. Then I will put a 1/2" shaft through and mark the tower above the gear reducer to see where the shaft center actually falls.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/8219/TpD6MY.jpg)
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Johnmcc69 on November 11, 2019, 02:11:10 AM
 :ThumbsUp:
 :popcorn:
 John
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 11, 2019, 06:39:13 PM
The best laid plans of mice and men---When I built that gear reducer ten years ago, I attached the gears to the shafts with Loctite. Not very smart, but I was a newbee at the time. Now it seems I have to disassemble it all and pin the gears or add set screws to them. Phooee!!!
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 11, 2019, 08:47:44 PM
Things weren't quite as dire as I had thought.  Nothing has let go in the gear reducer. The roller chain sprocket that I have on the reducer output shaft has been sleeved down to 1/4" diameter from 3/8" diameter. I forgot to drill and tap new set screw holes, so even though the set screws were tightened they were only bearing against the sleeve, not the output shaft. I have both uprights drilled and reamed for 1/2" shafts, and they seem to be fine---with all the bolts tightened up the shaft still spins. The roller chain is a bit tighter than I expected it to be, so the 1/8" spacers underneath may have to become .150" thick, not the .125" that they are now. Some of this stuff you just can't tell until all the bolts have been tightened up.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/7499/8VGRWN.jpg)
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on November 11, 2019, 10:40:07 PM
Hello Brian,

Hang in there, it is looking beautiful and cannot wait to see it in action.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 12, 2019, 11:31:10 PM
Today was o-ring pulley day at my house. Looks like tomorrow may be an o-ring pulley day too. Four down, three to go. I have ground a tool bit to the profile I wanted, so all grooves are plunge cut to a depth of 0.070". I am hoping to achieve the result shown in the attached drawing, which means that the 1/8" cross section o-ring will pick up traction from the sides of the pulley as well as from the bottom. The picture of the tool I ground isn't that great, but it has an 0.080" flat on the tip and an included angle of 50 degrees. There has been a raging blizzard here all day, with about 6" of new snow on the ground and 6 more on the way overnight and into tomorrow. No fat-mans walk today. I'm down 42 pounds since May, and have 8 more to go. May be walking in the mall until snowmobiles have packed down the snow in the bush-trails I generally walk on.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/4251/bfdk1l.jpg)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/5781/8FeLio.jpg)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/4320/9JCRME.jpg)
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Craig DeShong on November 12, 2019, 11:59:54 PM
... I have been busy the last two days building some small fixtures for a customer ...

Those pesky customers sure can spoil your fun.   :ROFL:

Looks good Brian; you’ll be making saw dust in no time!
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 13, 2019, 04:29:27 PM
It took every last inch of 2" aluminum stock that I had, but all of the pulleys are finished.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/5655/QTfE6m.jpg)
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 13, 2019, 10:42:16 PM
This afternoon seen the first assembly of the two overhead shafts, gears, and pulleys. I think I'm going to end up putting a bolt on gusset plate on the tower coming off the gear reducer, because right now things are more flexible than I am comfortable with. Tomorrows job will be to build the gusset plate and put set-screws into all of the pulleys.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/4421/9qCUaX.jpg)
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 15, 2019, 05:40:44 PM
So, I have arrived at the point where there really isn't much left to do except buy a bunch of O-rings for drive belts and "free up" all of the shafts which run in bushings. This picture shows my 1750 rpm motor "running in" the top two shafts and bearings. There is also one o-ring belt driving the saw arbor. I will keep lots of oil on the bushings and let it run that way for an hour.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/2879/aloPyN.jpg)
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 16, 2019, 04:23:54 PM
For all intents and purposes, the project is finished. My next challenge is going to be getting the correct size and length of O-rings for drive belts. there is a local o-ring company that doesn't sell to the public, but who have helped me out before. There is also a seller in Toronto who I will contact on Monday. I am quite excited to see this edger working.--Brian
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Johnmcc69 on November 16, 2019, 10:03:54 PM
Very nice Brian!
 Excited to see it work as well!
 
 John
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 16, 2019, 10:07:52 PM
Just for the heck of it--Here is a picture of "running in" the textured rollers. There wasn't a lot of resistance there, but even a brand new piece of roller chain will loosen up considerably when "ran in" for an hour with lots of oil on the chain and the bearings which support the textured rollers. The spring loaded pressure rollers are tied up with a piece of string to keep them from being "imprinted" by the textured rollers while they are being run in. On full size edgers I am sure that there must be an adjustable stop to keep the pressure rollers from riding up against the face of the textured rollers
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/2512/iVKwh8.jpg)
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 17, 2019, 04:05:12 PM
I received a quote yesterday for the eleven O-rings I want to use on this project. $55--Ouch. Still cheaper than buying one timing belt pulley. Remember--I'm not in USA. Everything up here costs roughly 30% more than south of the border.
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 17, 2019, 06:25:43 PM
I've decide to use one of my side-shaft engines for the edger project. This is not a hit and miss engine, but is a throttle governed engine. The governor mechanism senses when the engine begins to slow down from a load, and consequently opens the throttle wider to compensate for the load and bring the engine up to it's pre-set "no load rpm". I know this engine has more than enough power to drive my sawmill, so I am hoping it will have no problem driving the edger.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/2691/cwzQNf.jpg)
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 20, 2019, 05:19:51 PM
This falls into the category of "wild ass ideas" but---On many of the small machines I make to run off my engines, I use o-ring drive belts. They work just fine. However, in order for them not to slip on the smooth surface of the aluminum pulleys, they have to be stretched very tight.  The fact of "being stretched really tight" is hard on the bearings of both my engines and the machines they run. What can I do to alleviate this problem?---Well, what about the idea of giving some texture to the smooth surface of the pulley grooves?
 I have a dedicated cutting tool which I ground to cut the pulley grooves. I know the geometry of the tool tip and consequently, the grooves it cuts. If I were to make a round cutter from 01 steel, which had the same geometry as the cutting tool, then drilled a series of holes around the thing and hardened it, it would leave the shape shown. If I then had a hole in the center for an axle and a holder, I could mount it in a holder in my quick change toolpost, and after lining it up with the pulley groove, crank it in far enough that it was giving some pressure. The pulley would be rotated by my lathe, and as it turned the new cutter would "imprint" a pattern in the smooth pulley groove. Remember, I'm not trying to remove material here, just imprint a pattern. Unless I got into one of those situations where the pulley groove was exactly a multiple of the cutter pitch diameter, it should not repeat the pattern in the same place on each rotation. I like the idea. I have enough material on hand to make something like this. What do you think?
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/2589/S54l0S.jpg)
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: doubletop on November 20, 2019, 06:57:37 PM
Brian

I've been away so I'm a bit late to the party but rather than use O rings, which will most likely slip under load, have you considered the alternatives?

https://www.beltingonline.com/ (https://www.beltingonline.com/)

The toothed polyurethane timing belts are small enough to scale down to our model sizes.

Pete
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Jasonb on November 20, 2019, 07:31:10 PM
Or if you want to stay with round then get some of the lengths of belting and make up your own, the green has a textured surface and will grip the pulley better than any O ring will.

http://www.fennerdrives.com/eagle/
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 20, 2019, 07:47:03 PM
Pete--I hadn't considered that type of belting. Jason--I really like the stuff you have provided the link to. My o-rings are currently somewhere on the road to my house. I will definitely check out the product and connector which you gave the link to.--Thank you.
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 22, 2019, 03:46:21 PM
I've had a rather lazy, non machining week and I've rather enjoyed it. I called the o-ring vender in Toronto, and they have my O-rings ready to ship on Monday. They were supposed to ship this week but something got screwed up with their supplier and they couldn't make it this week. I did get rather excited about the link posted by Jason, as it shows polyurethane cut-to length belting and a multi jointed mechanical connector, but more reading showed me that minimum diameter is 3/8", too large for my use. I actually did contact Fenner Drives to enquire about 1/8" polyurethane drive belts and a "splicing kit".  It is winter here now, and since I don't have any heat out in my main garage, I will probably set the edger, clutch, and engine up on a piece of 3/4" plywood on my reference desk beside my computer for the actual running.
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Jasonb on November 22, 2019, 03:51:02 PM
It was more the belting I was directing you to than the joiner, flame and a bit of thin metal is all you need to heat weld then and  a 3mm a lighter would do. Failing that stick the ends with superglue.

They are a different density and make up than O rings so far more grippy and also have a bit more stretch which O rings were never designed to.
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 22, 2019, 05:34:56 PM
So now we are going to see about old dogs and new tricks. I have always used black rubber O-rings as drive belts for the array of "Things to drive with my engines". That was mainly based on the fact that Hercules O-rings have a distribution warehouse in Barrie, and if I went over there and begged enough, they would give me what O-rings I needed. Time has moved on, and all of the personnel over there has changed so I doubt that my begging routine would do much good. The newest bunch of O-rings I am planning to use on my sawmill edger have been ordered from a Global O-rings in Toronto, and by the time I pay for the O-rings, the tax, and the shipping, I'm going to be looking at $75 or $80 which is a bit much. I have contacted a distributor of polyurethane Fenner drive belts (which are sold in 100 foot rolls, and a "welding kit" for joining the ends. According to people who seem to know, this round polyurethane belting is far less apt to slip on an aluminum pulley than an o-ring. I will post what I am quoted and also post what the O-rings I have on order end up costing, and let you know.---Brian
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 25, 2019, 03:23:44 PM
I'm still waiting for O-rings, but in the meantime, the brain never rests. I'm still thinking of a pattern embossed on the aluminum pulley in the area where it connects with the o-ring. The o-ring gets squeezed into a v-shaped slot with a flat bottom. If the sides of the v-shaped slots have an embossed pattern, I can imagine it tearing up the rubber O-rings fairly quickly. However, if the pattern was embossed only on the flat in the bottom of the groove, it would supply a lot of traction ensuring that the O-rings would be far less apt to slip, yet not tear up the O-rings. This makes the roller easier to fabricate. I can do a heavy knurl on the outside diameter of a 1" diameter piece of 01 steel, then part of a slice .075" wide and harden it. After heat treating it, put it in a handle as shown, mount the aluminum pulley on a mandrel and drive the pulley with my lathe. With the knurled piece held in my Q.C.toolpost lined up with the flat in the bottom of the pulley, then just crank the cross feed  down tight and let the pulley make a few revolutions. I have never seen this done, but it seems like a good idea.
(http://imageshack.com/a/img921/2687/eTJE0M.jpg)
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: mike mott on November 25, 2019, 03:52:36 PM
That is an interesting solution Brian.

Mike
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: RayW on November 25, 2019, 03:59:19 PM
Hi Brian,

When I was restoring my 1/2HP Stuart engine, I needed a small diameter round (4mm) section belt for the drive to the flyball governor. I found a product from Fenner Transmissions called Poly Cord, and they made up some endless belts for me to my dimensions.
As Jason has said, you can just buy the belting, cut it to length, and superglue the ends together, but superglue joints are non-flexible and my experience is that belting joined that way breaks easily when bent. The only effective way is to heat weld as he suggests.
Poly Cord is pretty grippy and may be just what you need.
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 25, 2019, 04:13:15 PM
I am currently waiting for a quote from Fenner for a 100 foot roll of 1/8" polyurethane round material and a kit for heating and welding the ends.---Brian
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 25, 2019, 04:29:41 PM
I just happened to have a short piece of 01 steel 1" diameter. It wasn't a big deal to knurl the outer diameter, ream a hole in the center, part it off, then heat treat it. I will heat soak it in my wife's kitchen oven at 350 degrees for a couple of hours to draw the hardness back a bit. Not sure if I will need it, but it didn't cost anything to make and I think it's fairly innovative. The knurled pattern came out very well, and I'm sure it will imprint the aluminum with no difficulty.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/8168/TceHLk.jpg)
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: bent on November 25, 2019, 05:43:28 PM
Are you worried at all about the grip pattern tearing/wearing the belts prematurely?  Maybe a quick blast with baking soda would help?  Would a v-groove provide better grip, or would that just tend to make the belt whip/vibrate due to stiction when the belt unwinds from the pulley?
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: crueby on November 25, 2019, 05:48:30 PM
Are you worried at all about the grip pattern tearing/wearing the belts prematurely?  Maybe a quick blast with baking soda would help?  Would a v-groove provide better grip, or would that just tend to make the belt whip/vibrate due to stiction when the belt unwinds from the pulley?
My old Unimat lathe used the o-ring type belts (larger diameter, urethane I think) with a slight V to the grooves. Worked fine.
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 25, 2019, 05:50:19 PM
Bent--It would probably be good if you took time to read the whole thread. Your question has been addressed a couple of times.
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 25, 2019, 09:20:35 PM
A two hour heat soak in my wife's kitchen oven, and Hey-Presto--We have a new tool. The intent of this tool is to put a knurled pattern on the flat bottom of the v-groove in an o-ring pulley. Tomorrow I will do some functional testing and let you know the results.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/5369/jn6vaX.jpg)
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 25, 2019, 11:33:27 PM
Really outstanding results with this new tool. Two pictures show tool in tool holder after being cranked in to bear on bottom of v-groove. and an identical groove made with the same grooving tool to the same depth but with no texturing in the bottom. I wrapped a 1/8" o-ring around the smooth pulley, and with a bit of tension on it, it slips in the groove. Did the same with the textured groove, and there was no slippage at all.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/9391/BZSAid.jpg)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/6084/ZcA9JZ.jpg)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/7995/eUksTh.jpg)
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 25, 2019, 11:42:05 PM
This is the tool I ground to make all of the o-ring grooves identical. A simple plunge cut 0.070" deep and the groove is finished.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/166/ZYkPPG.jpg)
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Flyboy Jim on November 26, 2019, 04:20:19 AM
Hi Brian,

This has been a really interesting build thread.........as are all of your builds.

Anyway, I was wondering if, when you made your new groove knurling tool, you used an existing knurling tool to make it? I'm always fascinated with the concept of making a tool to do a job. I've made a few simple ones myself and find it quite rewarding.

Jim
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 26, 2019, 02:39:59 PM
Yes Jim, that's exactly what I did. I had a 3" long leftover of 01 steel 1" diameter. I set it up in the lathe and knurled the last 3/8" (which is the width of my knurls), then parted off a piece 0.075" long, then hardened it. This piece than became a very narrow knurl itself.---Brian
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 26, 2019, 09:39:21 PM
Okay people--We have one side of the equation. This is a quote I received today for 100 foot of 1/8" diameter polyurethane cord and a splice kit.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/7221/U0dBDT.jpg)
From $83 to $94 for the 100 foot of cord, and over $500 for the splice kit.
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Craig DeShong on November 26, 2019, 11:02:50 PM
Seems a bit pricy but.... you’d have a lifetime supply of belting :ThumbsUp: so it might be worth considering?

I’ve spent more on things that didn’t pan out.  :wallbang:
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 27, 2019, 04:15:55 PM
SO--This morning my rubber O-rings showed up. There are 18.3 linear foot of o-ring, costing a total of $75.79 which works out to $4.14 per linear foot. The 1/8" round polyurethane that I had quoted was $83.00 for 100 foot. This works out to $.83 per linear foot. Conclusion is that o-ring material costs about 500% more than polyurethane material---if you don't consider the price of a splicing kit for the polyurethane.
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: AOG on November 27, 2019, 05:53:15 PM
You could glue the ends together.  Methyl methacrylate (MMA) adhesives will bond Polyurethane and they are reasonably cheap.

Tony
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 27, 2019, 06:27:58 PM
Here we are girls and boys. Ready to rock and roll!!! It is far too cold out in my main garage to set this up, so I have it set up on a piece of plywood screwed to my side reference desk. The aluminum box with the switch and handle on it is my coil box. I'm going to grab some lunch and then try to run this thing.---Brian
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/5771/YXMFYj.jpg)
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on November 27, 2019, 07:11:43 PM
Hello Brian,

Holly molly that is a lot of "belts" but it sure looks good. Looking forward to the video of this in operation.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: gerritv on November 27, 2019, 08:17:57 PM
Hi Brian
I don't think you need a  $500 tool to melt the ends together. Perhaps for paying customers and industrial use but not for this. I bought 5mm belting from Asia, made a jig to hold the ends in alignment and then heated a hack saw blade end to fuse the 2 ends. This method runs the spindle on my UPT as well as my Alexander d-bit grinder. It took a few tried to get the correct amount of melt but that only cost me a few inches of material. If you pm me your snail address. I will mail you a few feet, no charge.
Gerrit
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 27, 2019, 09:12:18 PM
I must have done something really, really bad in one of my previous lives. I'm all set up and ready to go, and I can't get the engine to run. It ran great the last time I used it, and nothing has been changed while it sat up on the shelf.  Rest of my day will be tied up figuring out what the heck is going on with the engine.
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 28, 2019, 04:07:31 PM
If at first you don't succeed, try a different engine. That doesn't always work though. I put the vertical hit and miss engine on as a driver this morning, and it starts and runs like a champion.--But---It doesn't have enough power to drive the edger. I tried many different tricks, but when the clutch lever is engaged, the vertical hit and miss engine just grunts and quits.  This is rather bad news as all of my engines have a 1" bore. The stroke on the vertical hit and miss is slightly different (shorter) than the first engine I tried to drive this system with. I am now going to have a closer look at the throttle governed engine and see  what is going on with it. I think it is more powerful, but only if I can get the darned thing to run. I have a couple of tricks left. I can monkey about with pulley ratios, and if that doesn't work I have my opposed twin horizontal engine which should be more powerful.
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 28, 2019, 05:56:38 PM
I think I may have found out why my governor throttled engine wouldn't start. It may have been the result of a STUPID ATTACK!!! Having checked every possible thing I could, I decided that it must be a gummed up carburetor. So--I changed to a brand new carburetor.--And--While I was doing it I noticed that the top rocker arm on the engine operates the intake, not the exhaust. I have been bravely forging ahead with the engine valve timing set backwards. I don't have these stupid attacks often, but when I do, they're real doozies. I'm off to eat some lunch, then go for my fat mans walk, then come back and reset the timing. Gahhhhhh---
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: crueby on November 28, 2019, 06:29:14 PM
How did it run before with that backwards?  Whatever, glad you found it! Sometimes walking away and getting a fresh look shows things you've been staring at for hours without seeing.
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 28, 2019, 08:04:52 PM
We're fine!!! Engine now runs excellent with proper valve timing. How did it get out of time just setting on a shelf? That is one of those questions that I have no answer for. I don't have anyone in my shop but myself, and unlike some people I could name, I don't have any shop elves. I know so much about these small engines, that when an engine refuses to run and yet I think everything is set up correctly, it makes me crazy. Now I will bolt the engine back onto it's sub base and see if it will run the edger.
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 28, 2019, 09:15:22 PM
The throttle governed engine does run the edger. There is an awful lot of stuff in motion and it's scary as Hell, but everything is working. I have to tame the engine down a little bit and get things moving at a more sedate pace, but I think this thing is actually going to work. I will post a video of everything working and a board going thru the edger --maybe tomorrow.
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 29, 2019, 12:23:10 AM
Three things to do tomorrow. Engine has one "loose" flywheel.---Drill out #8-32 set screw holes and retap to #10-24. Link between governor and carburetor need one end to be adjustable.--Right now there is no adjustment on it and I need it to be adjustable to set the engine rpm range. Spring loaded pressure rollers on edger have to have adjustable stops added. Right now they ride right up tight to the textured rollers. The boards I am going to be edging are 1/8" thick material, so the adjustable stops will stop the pressure rollers 3/32" away from the textured rollers. This will make it easier to get the boards into place to start them feeding thru the saws, and will keep the textured rollers from marking up the face of the pressure rollers.
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Art K on November 29, 2019, 02:57:44 AM
Brian,
Glad to hear that you have the engines problems sorted out and running, with a few repairs left. I have found that I needed to set up an indicator on the i/e to determin where it's set & where it needs to go that's using the cam timing diagram.
Art
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 29, 2019, 08:39:19 PM
XBx6j-ub6Dw
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: gerritv on November 29, 2019, 09:17:46 PM
Sounds like a tough strong motor. I wish my effort at an engine were rewarded with that sound :-)

Gerrit
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 29, 2019, 09:28:10 PM
I've played as much as I can for today. Tomorrows work will be putting swing limiters on the edger to keep the pressure rolls from riding on the face of the textured rollers. :pinkelephant: :pinkelephant:
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 30, 2019, 04:24:11 PM
This morning I put "swing limiters" on the pressure rollers. This does two things. It prevents the spring loaded pressure rollers from being forced down on the knurled feed rollers and getting their plain faces marked up by the knurling. It also holds the gap of about 3/32" between the rollers so that it isn't so difficult to force a 1/8" thick board between the  rollers to start it self feeding thru the saws. In the picture you can see the top of four #4 threaded studs with double hex nuts on them. They extend thru clearance holes in the top frame, thru the springs for the pressure rollers, and thread into the swinging mechanism which supports the top pressure rolls. By moving the nuts up or down on the threaded studs I can adjust the roller gap.   Right now I have a 1/8" thick parallel setting between the rollers until some of the Loctite I used on the studs sets up.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/1028/mWs4kq.jpg)
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 30, 2019, 05:36:12 PM
Today seen the first boards thru the edger. I'm a bit disappointed that none of my single cylinder engines have enough power to run it properly. I may try my twin cylinder opposed engine on it, however for now I wanted to see the edger actually do it's job. I have resorted to variable speed drill power, and although it is noisy, it gets the job done. I think that I need stronger springs on the pressure rollers to feed the boards completely through, but other than that it seems to do everything I want it to. I will get a video up either this afternoon or tomorrow morning.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/4281/FHccl8.jpg)
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 30, 2019, 08:32:54 PM
I'm getting a complete education on the care and feeding of edgers. I am edging boards but I have learned---The saw's should be running twice as fast, and the feed rollers should be twice as slow. I have the feed rollers both gripping the board and passing it through just fine. Only thing is that the saw isn't cutting fast enough to keep up, so about half way down the length of a board the saw blades stall, and the belts slip. Fortunately, this can all be addressed by different pulley combinations.  I have an ever increasing bunch of different sized pulleys hanging on my machine-shop wall, from all of the crazy things I have built. If I put a board thru that is narrow enough to engage only one saw blade, things actually work pretty good.
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Jasonb on November 30, 2019, 08:54:05 PM
Well I did mention it in post #14

about 10:1 ratio from the photo I posted.
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 30, 2019, 09:52:09 PM
You're making a pulley out of WHAT!!! Hey, it's free stuff. It will work fine in the application it is intended for. I didn't have any 1" aluminum plate. I coated the aluminum pulley with fast dry epoxy, and will finish it off tomorrow morning.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/9089/zeH9th.jpg)
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: crueby on November 30, 2019, 09:58:36 PM
No biggie, wood used to be used for all sorts of pulleys!
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 30, 2019, 10:17:57 PM
My original design had the feed rollers turning 8 times slower than the circular saws. This didn't work very well--the rolls would jam the wood into the sawblade so quickly that it would stall the saws. Next effort was to have the feed rollers turning 16 times slower than the sawblades. That worked a lot better, but would still jam the saws about halfway thru the cut and stall them. The wooden pulley I have up on the lathe right now is going to allow the feed rollers to go 32 times slower than the saws. I'll know a lot better tomorrow morning how that is going to work. It's been a fun day.
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: crueby on November 30, 2019, 10:42:36 PM
Brian, do those blades have much set to the teeth? The finer blades without much set are notorious for pulling the wood to one side slightly and jamming the wood against the fence. Proxxon does make coarser blades, I like thier carbide tipped (48 tooth?) one, very clean cut, removes a lot of wood with little effort, and tolerant of alignment.
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on November 30, 2019, 11:29:32 PM
No Chris, they have very little set. The carbide tipped ones are much better because the carbide is actually wider than the body of the saw. Of course, with wider tip comes the issue of needing more power to drive the blades. I think what I have will work once I get the feed roll rpm sorted.
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: crueby on December 01, 2019, 12:17:44 AM
I've found (have done a LOT of fine wood sawing on the ship models over the years) that the carbide ones actually take less effort from the motor and remove more wood quicker since they are not rubbing on the sides of the cut like the thin small-tooth blades do. Seems like it should be the opposite, but its not. Worth a try, I think you will be surprised.
 :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Jasonb on December 01, 2019, 07:14:59 AM
Yes you will probably need lower gearing than the one I showed as your rollers are large  compared to the blade dia, Scaled down to your 2" blade these rollers look like they would come out at 1/4" dia rather than your 1/2"
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 01, 2019, 04:25:09 PM
This morning we have success!!! The wooden pulley that I had up on the lathe yesterday seems to have done the trick. The edger is taking full length boards thru the saws and the feed rolls are gripping as I had intended. I had to make up an outside bearing support on the shaft which is held in my variable speed drill so as not put too much sideload on the drill bearings. This thing is noisier than I would ever have imagined. I am going to make a video now.
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: crueby on December 01, 2019, 04:26:38 PM
Excellent!! Popcorns a poppin...
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 01, 2019, 07:32:50 PM
I have been trying unsuccessfully all afternoon to combine two separate videos into one. I can't figure it out, so two videos are going up. I strongly suggest that you watch them in order.---Brian
d3Z5FesUQpcqj-WsoHQ9SI
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Admiral_dk on December 01, 2019, 07:39:05 PM
Congratulations on a "runner"  :ThumbsUp:  It's not noiseless as you yourself pointed out - but it gets the job done  :cheers:
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: crueby on December 01, 2019, 07:40:00 PM
Terrific! And it does sound just like the real thing, same whirs/shreaks/whines as a big one. Great!!
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on December 01, 2019, 09:06:28 PM
Hello Brian,

Absolutely fantastic   :praise2: Beautiful engineering and workmanship  :ThumbsUp:

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 01, 2019, 09:33:58 PM
Thank you, guys. Before I tear that set-up down I'm going to get my tachometer out and see what rpm the drill motor is turning at. It's horribly noisy, but I don't really think it's turning all that fast. EDIT---If I can trust my laser tachometer, the drill is turning at 1000 rpm, which is close to what I thought. That means the sawblades are turning at 2000 rpm.  The sawblades are 2" diameter. The 1/2" diameter feed rolls are turning at 62.5 rpm.
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Flyboy Jim on December 02, 2019, 03:19:58 AM
What a great project Brian! Well done. :ThumbsUp: I've enjoyed following along as this project progressed.

I'm betting that you're the first one on your street to have one of these!  :lolb:

Jim
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: doubletop on December 02, 2019, 07:12:05 AM
Brian

Brilliant!! Now you've got the gearing sorted it runs very well.

I'll be waiting for David Lloyd to build his scaled up version.

Pete
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: sbwhart on December 02, 2019, 08:03:13 AM
Fantastic Project Brian  :whoohoo: :whoohoo: :whoohoo: :pinkelephant: :pinkelephant:

I've followed you all the way.

Stew
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Johnmcc69 on December 02, 2019, 04:27:32 PM
 :ThumbsUp:
 Very nice piece of engineering there Brian!

 It's a shame your engines wouldn't power it. Maybe time to build a bigger engine?  :stickpoke:

 John
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 02, 2019, 07:05:49 PM
The big question here was "will the edger work" and if so then "what will be the final pulley reductions and sawblade speeds and what rpm will the feed rollers work best." I have now determined all of those factors. The initial form of the edger had far too many shafts and friction points for one of my gas engines to run. There is nothing else right now that I want to move forward and design or build so I am going to spend some time on a purpose built reducer that will give me the proper outputs and rpm's. The reducer which I used on this initial run was just one that I had setting around from 10 years ago. I want something that lets me get rid of the two top-shafts and the pulleys and o-rings associated with them.
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 03, 2019, 12:14:33 AM
So what does a design engineer do if he's bored?--Well of course--He designs something. In this particular case, a custom designed reducer to work with the edger. This will do three things, which may all be good. With full ball bearings on every shaft, this will cut way down on friction, and use up all the weird ball bearings that have been collecting in my tin of goodies. It also may give a far greater chance of the edger being powered by one of my gas engines, and it will keep me from totally forgetting how to cut gears with my mill and rotary table. It will also get rid of the towers and overhead shafts on the edger. I had accumulated six "bastard" ball bearings, some of which are metric and some of which are imperial, but they are all good bearings.--More will follow, tomorrow.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/6858/fzXhC1.jpg)
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: crueby on December 03, 2019, 12:46:36 AM
Looking forward to seeing how Edger-MK-II comes together. Popcorn is ready!
 :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: RJH on December 03, 2019, 01:49:06 AM
Looks like a fun machine.
If the engine was connected to the saw shaft, it would not have the drag of turning the gears, shafts and orings under the load of the blades.  Ralph
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Art K on December 03, 2019, 03:03:30 AM
Brian,
Great job! It is quite noisy but I am sure the volume is scaled to the original. It should prove interesting with the gear train changes.
Art
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: MJM460 on December 03, 2019, 09:52:51 AM
Hi Brian, great to see it working, an interesting project.

Now you also need a project to use all those planks!

I am not surprised that it is noisy, I have never heard of a quiet woodworking machine, particularly saws and planers.

My only comment is that the cutting speed on that small blade seems very low for woodworking, cutting speeds are usually much higher than our normal metal cutting speeds.  And it might be worth making a little tool to put some set on those blades to reduce the blade friction a bit.  They are fairly simple devices and should make quite a difference.

MJM460



Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 03, 2019, 05:42:57 PM
I dug around in my "someday I might use that" box, and Voila!! Not only did I find all of the orphaned bearings that I will use on my new gear reducer, but I also found a set of timing pulleys and a timing belt, which were rescued from a dead appliance?? One shaft from my reducer is going to extend from the reducer and sprocket side to the opposite side of the edger, where they will drive the sawblades.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/2639/c0gbCX.jpg)
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Jasonb on December 03, 2019, 06:21:33 PM
ideally you should have drive going to the blade shaft and this should be the only input to the edger. Then any gearing down to the rollers should be taken from that shaft. Reason being that if the blade bogs down and looses speed the feed will also be reduced and you won't carry on feeding wood into a slowing blade which will quickly become a stall.
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 03, 2019, 06:31:47 PM
Okay---Version two!! This is a much cleaner version. The overhead towers and shafts and pulleys are gone. All of the gearing  to get from 1000 rpm to 60 rpm is done by the gears inside the reducer I will build. This will dramatically cut down friction and noise. One of the gears which is running in the opposite direction in the reducer has it's shaft extended through to the far side of the edger, where a timing belt drives from the extended shaft to the saws.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/1562/TVEkfp.jpg)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/1111/dE8kIo.jpg)
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 03, 2019, 07:06:43 PM
Jason--I believe that what I have agrees with what you are suggesting. If the saw-blades are forced to slow down, the infeed rollers will have to slow down also. There will be no possible "slippage" in the system
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Jasonb on December 03, 2019, 07:20:00 PM
Slippage is not a bad thing but you need the rollers to slip rather than the blade drive slip while the rollers are still feeding the work in.

Take another look at that photo I posted at the bottom of page 1 where I said you did not need the overhead drive etc. You will see the top roller that tensions the drive belt to the two rollers is sprung so can slip if needed rather than having a solid geared or chain drive.
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 04, 2019, 05:36:39 PM
There are a couple of 14 tooth gears in the new gear reducer I an building, and it is actually simpler if I make the gear and the shaft that supports it all from one piece. This picture shows the first blank, ready to have teeth cut in it. I used the auto feed running in reverse on the turned down area closest to the chuck. It worked fine, but felt very weird watching the cutting tool and carriage moving from left to right.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/5273/PZD3sN.jpg)
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 05, 2019, 01:31:05 AM
So---It's been a long and uneventful day, but I have two shafts turned to size and ready to have gear teeth cut into them tomorrow. Turning shafts to fit bearings is not one of the machine shop jobs that I really like. I have ruined so many pieces of shafting by trying to get that last thou off the diameter and then ending up undersize. Steel is funny stuff. Unless the lathe tool is razor sharp, it won't cut that last thou--it just burnishes the shaft. Then when you turn it in one more thou, it digs in and takes off more than you wanted it to. I generally take shafts down to about 0.002" oversize, and then work the final bit off with carborundum paper strips until it is a "perfect" fit. Sounds good if you say it real fast, but my thumbs are sore tonight from holding sanding strips.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/1953/tVYPap.jpg)
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: gbritnell on December 05, 2019, 12:28:51 PM
Hi Brian,
You should never try to take .001 or .002 off with the lathe tool. Make your rough cuts leaving .014 stock. Then take a semi-finish cut leaving .004-.006. Mike the part and you should know by that cut how accurately your machine will cut. Now take your finish cut. You can stay .001 big if you want to polish the stock to size but by taking almost 2 identical cuts the part should come out exactly as dialed. Even a worn machine should repeat 2 cuts of almost the same depth. Trying to file and emery .002 off a shaft usually leads to a non concentric diameter.
gbritnell
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 05, 2019, 12:34:43 PM
Thanks George--I know how it's supposed to work, and I totally agree with you. It just doesn't work like that for me. My wife is buying six more tool holders for my qctp for Christmas, and I am going to delegate one of them to a razor sharp tool that only gets used on finish cuts.---Brian
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Jasonb on December 05, 2019, 02:41:20 PM
Brian, as you like using inserts get one of the CCGT or DCGT polished ones meant for aluminium and non ferrous metals, they will take a fine cut off of stainless and mild steel too.


LpVtM35GFtM
Good enough to sneak upto 10mm (0.3937" on my tenths micrometer)

(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Engineering/Midget/20190818_105502_zpsu5vqvqn9.jpg)

(https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Engineering/Midget/20190818_105451_zpsuqjmm374.jpg)
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 05, 2019, 05:53:44 PM
I've had a very gearish morning. We have one set-up shot and a shot of the three finished gears. No real excitement, I have the entire procedure written down in my "Gears" notebook. I don't do this very often, so it's nice to have something written that I can look over before I start machining. There is one more gear, made from brass, but it's a big one, over 4 1/2" diameter. I called my metal supplier to ask how much it would be, and he said "If you have to ask, you can't afford it!!"I have a good size piece of 1/4" brass plate that some kind soul gave me a few years ago, so I am going to laminate two pieces together and cut my gear from that. Now I have to go shovel the front step and go for my fat mans walk.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/1371/MBiRCg.jpg)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/7605/PJ69eo.jpg)
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 05, 2019, 09:30:04 PM
Whenever I cut a pair of gears, I always drill and ream two holes the exact calculated distance apart in a piece of scrap material and insert the gears and shafts, then turn them by hand to test how they mesh. Most times it works alright, but I have been fooled in the past. I can generally live with a bit of extra "lash" in the mating gears, but when they are a bit oversize, it gets ugly pretty fast. If they are a bit oversize, you can either set them back up in the lathe and recut them, which is a pain in the $#@%, or you can change the design of the housing a bit to accommodate them. Also, you can see my two pieces of 1/4" brass plate, rough cut to 4 3/4" and joined with J.B.Weld, then clamped. I will also bolt them together after they set up for 24 hours.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/8905/WWwgbg.jpg)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/3995/Bmk37A.jpg)
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 06, 2019, 10:56:55 PM
So here we are, ready to cut the 108 tooth gear. The two pieces of 1/4" brass plate were "glued" together with J.B. Weld, clamped and left overnight under a heat lamp. The outer circle of bolts hold the two plates together permanently--I don't trust any adhesive in an application like this. The inner circle of bolts pass through the plates and are threaded into a 1.5" diameter steel stub-shaft that is held in the jaws of the chuck on my rotary table. Before the stub-shaft was bolted in place, the brass plates were set up in my lathe 4 jaw chuck to drill and ream the 1/2" center hole. The stub shaft was also drilled and reamed for a 1/2" shaft, and you can see the end of it sticking out past the face of the brass plates. The big deal here is to achieve absolute concentricity before I start to cut the gear teeth. A dowel with a pointed end was first secured in the chuck, and then the center of the cutter was adjusted to be perfectly horizontally in line with the point on the dowel. Then the table was fed towards the column in the Y axis until the major diameter of the brass just touched the major diameter of the cutter. Then with the table cranked back out of the way in the X axis, the table was advanced 0.089" in the Y axis. This is the depth of cuts to be made. The table stops were set so that the cutter just cleared the brass part in each direction on the x axis. I am now ready to start taking full depth cuts every 3.333 degrees. This rotational distance is set by using the divider plates on the front of my rotary table.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/5848/bwo314.jpg)
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: gerritv on December 07, 2019, 12:52:28 PM
Looks like a rock solid setup.
I assume there is a DONOT DISTURB sign on your shop door today? The first time I cut a 60 tooth timing pulley I even removed the phone from my shop :-)

Gerrit
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 07, 2019, 01:38:23 PM
GerritV--well, it's something where you don't want your concentration broken, that's for sure.
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 07, 2019, 05:13:11 PM
So, here we are with the completed gear-train for my new gear reducer. I cut the 108 tooth gear this morning, and after finishing it I set all of the gears up in the correct relationship to each other, and took it for a test drive on my milling machine.
AX3ZXzG1Wck
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Admiral_dk on December 07, 2019, 07:11:22 PM
Nice result with the gears Brian  :ThumbsUp: you should be happy with them  :cheers:

Still following along  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 07, 2019, 10:22:51 PM
The two main outer plates of the reducer have the exact same outer profile. Of course they have different cavities machined in the in facing side because of the mish mash of bearings I used. The easiest way for me to do this is to extend the small diameter of the blind bores completely through the plates. That way I can pick up on the bores when I flip the plates over to mill the cavities. There will be no pressure in the reducer, just lots of gear grease, so if I do extend the bores all the way thru each plate, I can glue in plugs after the fact. This makes my job a lot easier, and takes nothing away from the functionality.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/4383/gDQc1U.jpg)
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on December 08, 2019, 12:14:41 AM
Hello Brian,

Still following along and I love your evolution of improvements to this machine.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 08, 2019, 12:07:41 PM
Thomas--how is your back? I have been doing my 1 1/2 mile "fat mans walk" since May, and have lost 41 pounds. This makes a remarkable difference in how my back feels at the end of the day. No more pain is so amazing I can hardly believe it. I didn't reach my goal, which was 50 pounds off by the end of November, but I will keep up my walk for the rest of the winter at least. What I would really like to see is a weight of 200 pounds by spring. I just love machining, and it's so nice to be able to stand at the lathe or mill and know you aren't going to have to set on a heating pad and take pain pills every evening.---Brian
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on December 08, 2019, 01:48:29 PM
Thomas--how is your back? I have been doing my 1 1/2 mile "fat mans walk" since May, and have lost 41 pounds. This makes a remarkable difference in how my back feels at the end of the day. No more pain is so amazing I can hardly believe it. I didn't reach my goal, which was 50 pounds off by the end of November, but I will keep up my walk for the rest of the winter at least. What I would really like to see is a weight of 200 pounds by spring. I just love machining, and it's so nice to be able to stand at the lathe or mill and know you aren't going to have to set on a heating pad and take pain pills every evening.---Brian

Hello Brian,

I haven't felt this good is at least 4 to 5 years. Not standing on my feet 8 to 10 ours a day out in the shop ( which I miss so much ), now doing my light exercise and big change in my diet ( now down to 200 ) which has help me loose a bit of weight but still staying plenty busy. I hope you stay with your diet and can get down to your desired weight goal. I am really enjoying following on this build and hope to see a video of it throwing sawdust everywhere  :lolb:

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 10, 2019, 01:11:36 AM
Today seen the gears assembled with the first side of this reducer housing. The overall ratio will be 16.5:1. There is one trick thing going on here that I like. The 16 tooth pinion shaft sets so close to the mating 30 tooth gear that there is not enough room for two ball bearings to set side by side. That is why the reducer sideplates are 1" thick. This allows me to put in a deep counterbore for one of the bearings and a shallow counterbore for the other. That way I can run the ball-bearings with one setting in deep enough to clear the other.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/7479/YCGM0d.jpg)
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Flyboy Jim on December 10, 2019, 02:33:44 AM
Clever solution Brian.  :ThumbsUp:

Jim
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 10, 2019, 08:00:17 PM
This is a video of the reducer running. The gears are all finished and the shafts are all supported on sealed ball bearings. I still have to make and install the perimeter plates that enclose everything, as this reducer will be full of grease.
NPA2TEKgd3Q
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: crueby on December 10, 2019, 08:25:18 PM
Very slick, not long till you are sawing boards to make your cat an elf-trap!  Or a shop-gnome-a-pult...
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 13, 2019, 01:23:14 AM
Today I made up the seven individual plates which form the perimeter of the gear reducer housing. Each plate has 4 drilled and tapped holes in it. Somewhere about half way thru, it must have driven me mad, because I thought "Now would be an opportune time to grease the gears before I get everything buttoned up!!" Of course by the end of the day, all of the grease is polluted by aluminum dust, so will have to be washed out and regreased. You have to admit though, it is a very swoopy looking gear reducer. It will look even swoopier after I wash out the bad grease, refill with good grease, and introduce reducer housing to Mrs. belt sander.
(http://imageshack.com/a/img923/4337/L7DfbS.jpg)
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 13, 2019, 07:14:35 PM
So, today you get a look inside. The bad grease is all washed out, the joints are all sealed with compound, and the new grease is in. The outside of the housing has had a brief visit with a couple of different belt sanders. It is posed "more or less" in the position it will occupy on the edger. I have to machine a few brass "buttons" to plug any holes that I don't need, they will be installed with Loctite. That big pulley on the input shaft is not part of the finished assembly. I just needed something I could grip to test the gear train with.
(http://imageshack.com/a/img921/4831/2kqlEa.jpg)
(http://imageshack.com/a/img923/27/pmxJpx.jpg)
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 14, 2019, 04:49:15 PM
Now that the gear reducer has been completed, it's time to go around to the other side of the edger and spend some time on the final drive for the saws. I had one set of timing gears and pulleys that were salvaged off some appliance, and they will be the only timing belt drives used on the project. The new reducer has one shaft that extends completely through the leg of the edger to drive the saw blade, and I have to do some very serious calculating to make sure the hole gets put into the correct place. I have ordered two Lovejoy couplings. One will go between the engine and the clutch, and one will go between the clutch and the gear reducer. No O-rings or pulleys will be used at all.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/5519/YNpAXX.jpg)
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Ye-Ole Steam Dude on December 14, 2019, 05:33:03 PM
Now that the gear reducer has been completed, it's time to go around to the other side of the edger and spend some time on the final drive for the saws. I had one set of timing gears and pulleys that were salvaged off some appliance, and they will be the only timing belt drives used on the project. The new reducer has one shaft that extends completely through the leg of the edger to drive the saw blade, and I have to do some very serious calculating to make sure the hole gets put into the correct place. I have ordered two Lovejoy couplings. One will go between the engine and the clutch, and one will go between the clutch and the gear reducer. No O-rings or pulleys will be used at all.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/5519/YNpAXX.jpg)

Hello Brian,

This new setup looks really good and should be more efficient.

Have a great day,
Thomas
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: crueby on December 14, 2019, 05:51:29 PM
So the actual saw blade will be run from the timing belt at a higher speed than the shaft coming out of the reducer box, which slows things down on the feed shafts?
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 14, 2019, 06:06:04 PM
Yes Chris, but it's a trick. The input from the engine will be at 1000 rpm. clockwise. The next gear which the input shaft meshes with will be revolving at 500 rpm counter-clockwise. The timing belt pulleys are 4:1, so the saw-blade will be revolving at 2000 rpm counter-clockwise, which I want it to. The third gear in will be running clockwise again to drive the rollers clockwise, and the final ratio from input is 16.5:1, so the feed rollers will be turning at 61 rpm. I established with the earlier o-ring set-up that the edger operated quite well at those rpm's. Kinda bends your head though.
Title: Re: Old School Sawmill Edger
Post by: Brian Rupnow on December 14, 2019, 07:25:25 PM
You just have to stop and admire a milling machine with such insane headroom. I don't use that head-room very often, but it is just wonderful to have it when you need it. I will have to put a tension pulley on that timing belt, but things worked out remarkably well. I will add an outboard bearing to that long shaft that comes all the way thru the edger to drive the large timing belt pulley.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/5371/an2T0k.jpg)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/7094/e1hCil.jpg)