Model Engine Maker

Engines => From Plans => Topic started by: glorfindel on January 12, 2019, 12:32:31 AM

Title: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: glorfindel on January 12, 2019, 12:32:31 AM
Hi, here is my Edwards radial 5 project.

I have made cylinders with 6061T6 and the sleeves with C12L14. I also 3d printed some of the parts for mocking up purpose.

I mostly follow the plan and adapting some parts to my taste/tooling.

First question: Can i get ride of the oil pump and use pre mixed rc fuel??

images will follow soon...

Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: glorfindel on January 12, 2019, 12:41:12 AM
Sorry, tapatalk is acting weird

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190112/fa3688aedec920a8db7d3c23c648403e.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190112/2f5bddccababdcc5e3742bd93a4e5a8b.jpg)

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Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: steamer on January 12, 2019, 01:20:09 AM
Sorry, tapatalk is acting weird

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190112/fa3688aedec920a8db7d3c23c648403e.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190112/2f5bddccababdcc5e3742bd93a4e5a8b.jpg)

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As to eliminating the oil pump.....I wouldn't.   As I remember on that engine, it's a pretty simple plunger pump, and it was put there by an experienced model engine builder who designed it...so saying that I would say no.    Why?

Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: glorfindel on January 12, 2019, 01:22:23 AM
Because i already got about 20 gallons of rc fuel with oil i  it. ;-)

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Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: glorfindel on January 14, 2019, 11:55:02 PM
Did the manifold today. No particular problems, jus a little bit worried about the small 2-56 tap.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190114/9a4cbfe531f4408747b4d8ff7e5386e6.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190114/975da84499e5833289c94015e94ee372.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190114/94901a3354319c51c2615a5c21b8f073.jpg)

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Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: steamer on January 15, 2019, 12:34:28 AM
Great start!

Dave
Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: petertha on January 15, 2019, 03:16:15 AM
glorfindel, nice start on the engine.

Someone on another forum was asking about Edwards compression ratio. Since you have developed 3D CAD model, is it possible for you to determine? It looks like the design called for trimming the lips of the cylinder liner to achieve equal CR's across the cylinders. I noticed the link rod holes are phased equal 72-deg therefore the CR's would be a bit different purely by stroke geometry assuming identical rods & pistons. So this trimming would make sense to achieve both equalization & specific desired CR (within limits).

I cant answer your oil premix question directly but FYI I am building an Ohrndorf 5-cylinder radial of similar displacement. It uses conventional oil premix RC fuel as opposed to Edwards prescribed straight methanol & separate oil pump. My nose case chamber is sealed from crankcase with O-ring & has a splash oil bath to lubricate cam plates & planetary gears. On the rear of crankcase is the induction manifold plate assembly. Fuel mixture is drawn in from the rear carb, mists over the rear of the master rod assembly & then exits out the individual induction tube up to the head. I could provide some CAD pics if that helps visualize. Mine is not completed yet so I cant tell you how it runs. But its the same principle as his 9-cylinder. https://www.engineman.de/en/

I can share details of I would have to look at Edwards oil circuit more closely to compare.
Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: glorfindel on January 15, 2019, 03:31:47 AM
glorfindel, nice start on the engine.

Someone on another forum was asking about Edwards compression ratio. Since you have developed 3D CAD model, is it possible for you to determine? It looks like the design called for trimming the lips of the cylinder liner to achieve equal CR's across the cylinders. I noticed the link rod holes are phased equal 72-deg therefore the CR's would be a bit different purely by stroke geometry assuming identical rods & pistons. So this trimming would make sense to achieve both equalization & specific desired CR (within limits).

I cant answer your oil premix question directly but FYI I am building an Ohrndorf 5-cylinder radial of similar displacement. It uses conventional oil premix RC fuel as opposed to Edwards prescribed straight methanol & separate oil pump. My nose case chamber is sealed from crankcase with O-ring & has a splash oil bath to lubricate cam plates & planetary gears. On the rear of crankcase is the induction manifold plate assembly. Fuel mixture is drawn in from the rear carb, mists over the rear of the master rod assembly & then exits out the individual induction tube up to the head. I could provide some CAD pics if that helps visualize. Mine is not completed yet so I cant tell you how it runs. But its the same principle as his 9-cylinder. https://www.engineman.de/en/

I can share details of I would have to look at Edwards oil circuit more closely to compare.
Yes, i did it in Catia and to have 8.5:1, as suggested, the lip must be .150". (Master rod)

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Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: rutje on January 15, 2019, 11:56:44 AM
good start.
I built also the radial engine based on the edwards plan.
I redraw it in 3d cad and modified it to metrical.
On recommendation from a experience builder I removed the oil pump. also 2 sections, 1 with regular oil in the cam section. In the other section the carburator is connected directly on the back of the 2nd section. so the methanol with 8% klotz will lube the inside. the intake for the 5 cylinders is connected on the back of the engine.

do you have plans to use this engine on a model plane?

regards,

Timo
Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: glorfindel on January 15, 2019, 12:38:13 PM
good start.
I built also the radial engine based on the edwards plan.
I redraw it in 3d cad and modified it to metrical.
On recommendation from a experience builder I removed the oil pump. also 2 sections, 1 with regular oil in the cam section. In the other section the carburator is connected directly on the back of the 2nd section. so the methanol with 8% klotz will lube the inside. the intake for the 5 cylinders is connected on the back of the engine.

do you have plans to use this engine on a model plane?

regards,

Timo
No.

The funny thing is that i was in rc planes from 1995 to 2010 then get bored. I was one of the first to fly an rc jet here, with a Wren mw54 turbine.

I will use the engine in my classes for different projects next fall. My goal is to make it run before june 16 ;-)

Thx for the info about lubrification.



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Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: glorfindel on January 15, 2019, 05:56:41 PM
Did another one, didnt like the finish on the first one.



(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190115/890500e23f33ab5cb6e6ce62a06ab617.jpg)

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Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: glorfindel on January 16, 2019, 04:52:55 PM
Hi guys. I have a question about the manifold cover.

Why did he offset the carburator????

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Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: petertha on January 16, 2019, 07:10:02 PM
I haven't built one but the intake manifold collection tube housing / carb mount looks to be on center according to the plans rear view. Is that what you mean?
If you mean the alignment of the facets, that probably pertains to helping with intake tube bending & the flanges etc. but just a guess
Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: glorfindel on January 16, 2019, 08:27:33 PM
Look, the carb is not in the center of the manifold cover.

Why????(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190116/d0c71988fb7be090aff79d85eb5975f2.jpg)

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Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: Admiral_dk on January 16, 2019, 09:24:59 PM
Newer seen the drawings so I'm only guessing here .... is there a vane pump on the inside ?
Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: glorfindel on January 16, 2019, 09:54:27 PM
Newer seen the drawings so I'm only guessing here .... is there a vane pump on the inside ?
Nope.

But i think i got the answer. Look at the drawing, there is 2 intakes tube that are higher on the manifold ( to prevent hydrolock of bottom cylinders ) , i guess the offset in the cover is for centering the carbs vs the intakes tubes.

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Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: petertha on January 17, 2019, 05:35:21 AM
I think you might be right there. I always wondered about that. Without the elevated tube ends in the manifold, any fuel flooding from the carb would drain directly down the lower induction tubes & sit in the head ports until valve opened & then bad things happen. Makes sense.

On my radial, different induction path as mentioned previously. But that makes my liquid accumulation sump the master rod groove in the crankcase. At least only fuel vapor can go to heads, but I am making provisions for a drain plug in the bottom of crankcase.

Anyway good observation.
Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: glorfindel on January 18, 2019, 09:11:47 PM
New parts.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190118/234cde195868a3c4613d2e0c59fbe57b.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190118/792d9c6b213340af82d8760fdcbe119d.jpg)

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Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: Art K on January 19, 2019, 02:23:29 AM
I have started following along. Amazing how much you miss when you travel. I have seen other builds on the Edwards radial 5 but I think they were on different forums. I have 2 radials on my bucket list the Kinner K5 in SIC and Jemma also in SIC, someday.
Art
Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: glorfindel on January 21, 2019, 10:52:16 PM
Did the pistons today. I changed the ring groove to 1mm( 0.039") instead of 0.0325" because i already had the 1mm grooving tool, so i adjusted the pattern.

I will make the ring 0.008" thicker.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190121/7421c31d2f2805d8eb895f1cb3381483.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190121/8330850584e8b537143c746060ddd60c.jpg)

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Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: steamer on January 22, 2019, 12:16:59 AM
Nice looking piston!    What lathe is that?

Dave
Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: glorfindel on January 22, 2019, 12:27:20 AM
Nice looking piston!    What lathe is that?

Dave
DMG 1250CTX mill/turn. A nice toy :-)

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Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: steamer on January 22, 2019, 12:32:51 AM
LOL   :lolb:   Yeah Mori's usually are.    Sweet!

Dave
Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: glorfindel on January 24, 2019, 01:58:53 AM
Honned the cylinders a little bit.

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(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190124/5dec1f5769955b559499904fdcf0be4e.jpg)
Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: glorfindel on January 25, 2019, 02:30:54 PM
We got a little problem with the 1250 post-processor, so i decided to change the rocker shape to make it easier to program directly on the cnc.

I'm little bit lighter, same strengh.

Will try to cnc it this afternoon.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190125/8f628a0bf4e9b69766a2327dd773b301.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190125/9523f3c559e6ce0bc1c4171152522e25.jpg)

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Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: glorfindel on January 28, 2019, 09:33:15 PM
Did the rockers today.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190128/a9342acaee46e6fce132516e22c5aecb.jpg)

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Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: dieselpilot on January 29, 2019, 02:32:25 PM
Nice!  DMG 1250CTX :P
Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: yogi on January 30, 2019, 06:51:56 AM
Very nice!!!  :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:
Keep the pictures coming...  :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: glorfindel on January 30, 2019, 05:09:43 PM
Done.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190130/9b4f5c6f9b40aadb624bf194ac45289c.jpg)

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Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: glorfindel on February 06, 2019, 03:32:17 PM
Will do this one today(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190206/d2b33bb8fdf564132046127d81f5741e.jpg)

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Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: b.lindsey on February 06, 2019, 03:46:17 PM
Nice work on those rockers!!

Bill
Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: glorfindel on February 07, 2019, 03:44:11 AM
Nice work on those rockers!!

Bill
Thx, small parts are new to me lol!!!

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Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: glorfindel on February 15, 2019, 12:29:52 PM
Cam ring and MasterRod are done.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190215/22c10ccf3eb201e32b7f513d2ab5ae85.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190215/7f5f22bed2649a96e3b7e6026df14879.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190215/d871db13d14ee6f6195ea8410a98e8fc.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190215/f773e62f99a0e168f874d5cc94786510.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190215/00c4f8e47b160bfefa180d821aff72b4.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190215/e9576d9f7774aed7c5afc0330b7aa6c4.jpg)

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Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: Admiral_dk on February 15, 2019, 08:53:54 PM
You keep on making some very nice part - admittedly with some tools most of us can only dream of - but still, a very nice master rod for sure   :cheers:
Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: steamer on February 16, 2019, 12:06:21 AM
I've actually never seen a saw quite like that one.   That's pretty cool!...


Works well too

Dave
Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: glorfindel on February 16, 2019, 12:41:42 AM
You keep on making some very nice part - admittedly with some tools most of us can only dream of - but still, a very nice master rod for sure   :cheers:
I've actually never seen a saw quite like that one.   That's pretty cool!...


Works well too

Dave
Thx guys, i'm very lucky to have access to those nice cnc.

It's a 5 axis mill, so tools are usually very long to be able to clear the table/vise in every positions.

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Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: steamer on February 16, 2019, 12:45:02 AM
Yeah!    A 5 axis would be nice!!!!!   :lolb:

Keep it coming!  I'm diggin this

Dave
Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: Art K on February 16, 2019, 01:33:38 AM
I must admit that having a 4 axis Tormach is a blessing. I am able to do many things I wouldn't otherwise be able to.
Art
Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: glorfindel on February 19, 2019, 03:38:41 PM
Yeah!    A 5 axis would be nice!!!!!   b:

Keep it coming!  I'm diggin this

Dave
I do it 3 axis, 2 setups, most of the time. I can do 5 axis, 1 setup, but it take longer tools, you need a bigger blank, more vibrations etc...

I'm working on the crank, so i'll give you a nice cnc show with the mill/turn passing the part from one chuck to another.

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Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: steamer on February 19, 2019, 04:30:46 PM
OUUUUU   Chuck transfers are cool....

It's nice to have the toys!

Dave
Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: glorfindel on February 19, 2019, 05:14:00 PM
Idler gears, 4 axis wire edm.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190219/5b479015c09d429bbf970d4251fbc85d.jpg)

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Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: steamer on February 19, 2019, 05:23:15 PM
 :lolb:

Modern machines and methods.....gotta love it.

Dave
Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: petertha on February 20, 2019, 03:51:45 AM
Cool! What are we looking at - the 2 idler gears just loose but with ID sized for bronze bushing?
What material & will you harden?
Is the plan to also EDM cut the cam internal (ring) gear too?
What does your boss think you are actually working on? HaHa
Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: glorfindel on February 21, 2019, 03:44:35 AM


Cool! What are we looking at - the 2 idler gears just loose but with ID sized for bronze bushing?
What material & will you harden?
Is the plan to also EDM cut the cam internal (ring) gear too?
What does your boss think you are actually working on? HaHa

Again, sorry for my lack of explaination, i'll get  use to it ;-)

The 2 gears (4140, not hardened ) were made on the wire edm, then i press fitted the bronze bushing. Next one will be hardened prior to edm.

Yes, the cam internal gear is the next one.

I'm paid to do this stuff, i'm a teacher, and i will use this project for my cad/cam class next fall ;-)

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Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: steamer on February 21, 2019, 10:09:16 AM


Cool! What are we looking at - the 2 idler gears just loose but with ID sized for bronze bushing?
What material & will you harden?
Is the plan to also EDM cut the cam internal (ring) gear too?
What does your boss think you are actually working on? HaHa

Again, sorry for my lack of explaination, i'll get  use to it ;-)

The 2 gears (4140, not hardened ) were made on the wire edm, then i press fitted the bronze bushing. Next one will be hardened prior to edm.

Yes, the cam internal gear is the next one.

I'm paid to do this stuff, i'm a teacher, and i will use this project for my cad/cam class next fall ;-)

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Where to I enroll?!!!
 :ROFL:
Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: Roger B on February 21, 2019, 11:04:33 AM
Excellent work  :praise2:  :praise2: It's good to have a teacher who can actually do the stuff rather than just talk about it  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp:  :wine1:
Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: glorfindel on February 21, 2019, 12:23:28 PM
Excellent work  :praise2:  :praise2: It's good to have a teacher who can actually do the stuff rather than just talk about it      :wine1:
Students better like real project. I'll make a small dyno to hook up the engine too, so we will have many years of fun with that engine!!!

But i have to make it work!!! ;-)

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Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: petertha on February 22, 2019, 11:57:07 PM
I'll make a small dyno to hook up the engine too, so we will have many years of fun with that engine!!!

I look forward to that
Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: glorfindel on February 25, 2019, 04:02:21 PM
I had some problems with the part in the second chuck, it wasnt holding it correctly. I did the second step with the dmu 50, again the part sliped in the chuck.

So, i will have to make some kind of jig or i will make it in 2 parts instead of one.

Making it one part take a LOTS of material...(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190225/f0a813857ed3538bc6371af0709d37cf.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190225/5b5940ebf508f44c91f306e161c4c6a4.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190225/365225b44f4574a273abf7a982bdc009.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190225/967f5030d88ae09845b121002342ee85.jpg)

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Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: glorfindel on March 01, 2019, 01:37:43 PM
So, i did the first step of the crank. I tried to do it one shot but i had vibration problems and i was not able to hold the part like i wanted to.

This one is good, i have +0.001" on every diameter, will test fit with bearings as soon as i get them.

I should do the second step and the counter weight today.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190301/fe23949026e06a98d627dd270da841d1.jpg)

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Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: glorfindel on March 01, 2019, 03:31:50 PM
CamGear done too. Wire EDM.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190301/c3846dce16a8b544c9150e3ff26fc559.jpg)

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Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: Admiral_dk on March 01, 2019, 07:37:00 PM
Ouch - the part slipping is rather annoying - has been there too  :cussing:

Other wise great parts.
Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: glorfindel on March 07, 2019, 09:51:17 PM
Did the retainer today. I had some errors on the first 2 lol!!!

So, the third one was good ;-)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190307/ecbfed1aa37967875ea41c8ad3b052b9.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190307/47b5c87145cebd5a06c9772686ca9aa6.jpg)

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Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: glorfindel on March 14, 2019, 12:42:59 PM
Working on the Case. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190314/937316b7bb958ed468725a9382ee3b33.jpg)

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Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: Admiral_dk on March 14, 2019, 05:08:09 PM
Last family shot looks great + nice to see that you got solved the problems so far  :cheers:
Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: V 45 on March 14, 2019, 05:36:43 PM
That's some very nice CNC machining right there ! Just curious...Why 12L14 for the cylinders and not cast iron?
Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: glorfindel on March 14, 2019, 09:32:16 PM
That's some very nice CNC machining right there ! Just curious...Why 12L14 for the cylinders and not cast iron?
Because i didnt have cast iron round bar handy ;-)

I will make the rings in cast iron.

I know it's not the best material for cylinders, but i saw some peeps doing their cylinders with c12L14 and cast iron rings.

It's my first engine built, but i plan to redo the cyljnders in aluminium and send them to be Nikasil plated.

What's your take on cylinders/rings material choice??

The case is almost done, i'll do the small oil passage hole tomorrow.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190314/218e6e235c92047a3cdac8b117ed3b3f.jpg)

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Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: glorfindel on March 15, 2019, 01:29:43 PM
Taping 4-40 holes!

q3cj3G9ItSk
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Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: glorfindel on March 15, 2019, 07:25:02 PM
Look almost like an engine now!!(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190315/bf829f3089ff95970d957026ee5c8696.jpg)

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Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: Admiral_dk on March 15, 2019, 09:12:44 PM
Nice  :)

I tend to think of the master-rod as the one straight up = cylinder no 1 .... not that it matters  ;)
Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: glorfindel on March 15, 2019, 11:25:24 PM
Nice  :)

I tend to think of the master-rod as the one straight up = cylinder no 1 .... not that it matters  ;)
Oups!! ;-)

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Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: glorfindel on March 21, 2019, 11:36:16 AM
Test.

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Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: Vixen on March 21, 2019, 04:22:15 PM
Nice  :)

I tend to think of the master-rod as the one straight up = cylinder no 1 .... not that it matters  ;)

It was actually common practice for the master rod to be located in one of the two lower cylinders. The master rod does it's own share of the work plus a small percentage of sideload from each of the other slave rods. The lower cylinders are olier (due to gravity) than the upper cylinders, therefore were considered the best place to locate the higher loaded master rod and piston.

By some forgotten drawing convention, it was also normal for the Master Rod to be drawn in 'Number One' cylinder even though it practice it could be located in one of the two lower cylinders.

Mike
Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: Admiral_dk on March 21, 2019, 05:05:21 PM
Quote
By some forgotten drawing convention, it was also normal for the Master Rod to be drawn in 'Number One' cylinder even though it practice it could be located in one of the two lower cylinders.

Well that explains a lot. With that said - I have seen quite a number of sawn-through engines @ a number of museums and not one of them had shown the master-rod in any other direction than up …. but if the drawings are shown as you say - I would show the engine the same way - unless the rest of the plane / mounting hardware indicates differently.
Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: Vixen on March 21, 2019, 07:05:39 PM
The designer and  the engine builder are free to place the master rod in whichever cylinder they chose. It really does not matter, the engine will run correctly.

Bristol's chose to take advantage of the oilier environment in the lower cylinders, other designers do not

Chapter 23 ; 'Engine Erection Procedure' of my Bristol Mercury MK VIII works manual states that when fitting the crankshaft assembly into the rear crankcase half "Position the articulated rods in line with their respective cylinder half apertures; the master rod being aligned with the No 6 aperture.

Chapter 20; 'Assembling the Engine' of my Bristol Jupiter Mk VIII works manual similarly states " The master rod is situated in No 6 aperture"

So that's how I built my 1/4 scale Bristol Mercury and My 1/3 scale Bristol Jupiter engines.

In both cases the drawings in the manuals show the master rod in no 1 cylinder. Go figure that out !!!!!!!!!!!!

Other engine builders may do it differently, it's your choice.

Mike
Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: Admiral_dk on March 21, 2019, 09:30:21 PM
Mike - I'm not questioning your statement, and the oiling issue makes perfect sense .... it's more that I find it a bit amusing, that the drawing convention makes many (like myself) think that the master-rod always is number one and always up ....  :-[

Thank you for the "heads up" and sorry glorfindel  :-[ ;D
Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: glorfindel on April 01, 2019, 02:24:55 PM
Did those little rocker buttons this morning.

I never did such a small parts.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190401/9f7452ced7603885989c4c0354969926.jpg)

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Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: glorfindel on April 03, 2019, 06:22:44 PM
Cam housing.

I did a dumb mistake when taking my G54, so i will have to redo it.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190403/bfac9e117e2c70842728d8e4e2fc3550.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190403/e1a5e48635f3df0662aac09e025d0665.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190403/fbc0a7e102dc29ccb901b38d658a39c9.jpg)

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Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: Admiral_dk on April 03, 2019, 09:26:20 PM
I must admit that I can't see the mistake + can't help thinking - can't it be fixed without starting over ?
Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: glorfindel on April 03, 2019, 10:42:22 PM
I must admit that I can't see the mistake + can't help thinking - can't it be fixed without starting over ?
I have a 0.027" cocentricity error.

When i did the second side of the part, i zeroed (in cnc language, we say creating the G54) the wrong way, then my part ended with up 0.027" off.

If you zoom on the seco d pic, you will see that the "ring" doesnt have the same thickness all around.

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Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: Admiral_dk on April 04, 2019, 11:20:44 AM
OK - I see it now and why you will scrap it. What can I say - Errare Humanum est …. we all make them.
Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: glorfindel on April 04, 2019, 12:30:38 PM
OK - I see it now and why you will scrap it. What can I say - Errare Humanum est …. we all make them.
Yeah, like i said to my student:" Those who do nothing dont make mistakes, but dont do that error twice" :-)

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Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: petertha on April 05, 2019, 12:56:51 AM
The great thing about CNC is you can make scrap parts in no time flat. It takes me days to machine something & realize I buggered up! HaHa.
To make you feel good, I broke a tap off on the proverbial 'last hole' of my crankcase - I believe it was crankcase #3 sacrifice to the aluminum gods. Learned something every time.

Your radial is coming along great, look forward to your continued progress.
btw - what alloy did you choose for crankcase?
Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: glorfindel on April 05, 2019, 03:15:03 PM


The great thing about CNC is you can make scrap parts in no time flat. It takes me days to machine something & realize I buggered up! HaHa.
To make you feel good, I broke a tap off on the proverbial 'last hole' of my crankcase - I believe it was crankcase #3 sacrifice to the aluminum gods. Learned something every time.

Your radial is coming along great, look forward to your continued progress.
btw - what alloy did you choose for crankcase?

Aluminium gods and me are buddy for quite some times ;-)

I'm using 6061T6.

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Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: glorfindel on April 05, 2019, 04:02:42 PM
Valve.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190405/474c011ee899c3fe33c723035d9b183e.jpg)

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Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: Roger B on April 05, 2019, 05:03:02 PM
I like the valve  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp: Why the inch ruler?
Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: petertha on April 05, 2019, 07:14:09 PM
Nice. What material for the valve?
Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: glorfindel on April 06, 2019, 11:18:07 PM
I like the valve    Why the inch ruler?
I always work in imperial unit.

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Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: glorfindel on April 06, 2019, 11:19:24 PM
Nice. What material for the valve?
Stainless 305.

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Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: glorfindel on April 18, 2019, 04:48:59 PM
I redesigned the push rod, the cam follower and the rocker screw. The plan call for a 0.080" diameter socket. We dont have 0.080" ball nose. So i did it with a .125" socket to be able to use a .125" ball nose.

New vs old(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190418/abd617592d497b4171b91e924373bf2c.jpg)

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Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: Admiral_dk on April 18, 2019, 08:47:24 PM
Other checking that you do not create other issues, like interference, I can't think of any negatives (except for those that insist on perfect copy of the original).
Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: glorfindel on April 18, 2019, 10:19:11 PM
Other checking that you do not create other issues, like interference, I can't think of any negatives (except for those that insist on perfect copy of the original).
I'm using CatiV5, i can simulate all the movements, that's the fun part of desiging stuff in 3d ;-)

I hope i didnt miss something.

I'm not a purist, i already made changes and i will make way more in the V2.

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Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: Mike R on April 19, 2019, 02:54:11 AM
I don't see any issue with changing dimensions, as long as it all fits together at the end.  Don't get caught making that one little change and then not being able to assemble the parts!
(following along - I love radial engines....)


Mike
Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: petertha on April 19, 2019, 04:42:52 AM
I know the Edwards is USA/imperial design. 2mm is conspicuously close .0787"
Fortunately my (metric) radial design, metric ball ended carbide end mills are quite reasonable. Got a complete graduated set similar to these on Aliexpress. They are razor sharp & cut very well. Similar size ones in N-Am tool catalogs seem to be quite spendy. Not sure why?

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/6pcs-2-Flute-Ball-Nose-End-Mill-50mm-Nitrogen-Coated-CNC-Milling-Cutting-R0-5-3/32827204780.html?spm=2114.search0104.3.30.295532f0F6GUCN&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_2_10065_10068_10130_10547_319_10059_10884_317_10548_10887_10696_321_322_10084_453_10083_454_10103_10618_10307_537_536,searchweb201603_80,ppcSwitch_0&algo_expid=f5d74a04-2a20-4d66-9b67-ca01801e9443-4&algo_pvid=f5d74a04-2a20-4d66-9b67-ca01801e9443


https://www.traverscanada.com/promax-2-flute-taped-ball-end-mill-solid-carbide-080/p/20-457-131/
Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: petertha on April 19, 2019, 04:45:21 AM
I didnt refer to the Edwards plans but any particular reason you have a female socket on one lifter & male ball on the other. Or is this original design vs your modification?
What keeps the lifter aligned on the flat face so they don't rotate?
Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: glorfindel on April 19, 2019, 01:51:33 PM
It's old vs new design, on the cam side.

The rocker side is ending with a 0.115" sphere.

For the rocker part. I'will make a one piece 4-40 threated socket screw or an adaptator that i will screw on the 4-40 rocker screw.

I didnt finished the 3d model yet. I'll post pics next week. That will be clearer than my explaination :-)

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Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: glorfindel on April 24, 2019, 10:18:25 PM
Did the first side of the head. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190424/0f15d9bdc83e6bffed23eb562b0778ec.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190424/591d536e721b841f80591171a414a98e.jpg)

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Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: glorfindel on April 26, 2019, 04:58:29 AM
Guys, did you check the pics??

The bolt pattern is off lol!! I didnt noticed it t'ill this morning.

I putted a wrong number in tha cnc ;-)

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Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: Admiral_dk on April 26, 2019, 10:16:27 AM
Quote
I putted a wrong number in tha cnc ;-)

Been there - done that ...!.... though not with a bolt circle .... more like a move that broke the tool  :cussing:
Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: Stuart on April 26, 2019, 10:50:47 AM
Ditto
But mine was the probe off the 3D taster got the wrong axis set on the pendant twirled the wheel ping

Shame about the bolt circle just smile and reprogram ,press start and all will be good
Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: glorfindel on April 26, 2019, 02:11:48 PM
Quote
I putted a wrong number in tha cnc ;-)

Been there - done that ...!.... though not with a bolt circle .... more like a move that broke the tool  :cussing:
Ditto
But mine was the probe off the 3D taster got the wrong axis set on the pendant twirled the wheel ping

Shame about the bolt circle just smile and reprogram ,press start and all will be good
Yeah, another gift to the Aluminium god!!! ;-)

Im doing the other side and got a tooling/jig/vise problem for the top fins.

I'll just make a few with a 1/8 end mill for the prototype. I'll work on a little jig later.

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Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: petertha on April 26, 2019, 05:11:32 PM
I'm looking at the relief around the valve area (red arrow). Is that double facet clearance or is that the valve face itself? Maybe the actual valve seat contact is a much smaller band (green arrow)? I seem to recall the Edwards is a conical combustion chamber, not a hemi, is that right? Maybe that's why it looks more pronounced.
Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: glorfindel on April 26, 2019, 07:19:04 PM


I'm looking at the relief around the valve area (red arrow). Is that double facet clearance or is that the valve face itself? Maybe the actual valve seat contact is a much smaller band (green arrow)? I seem to recall the Edwards is a conical combustion chamber, not a hemi, is that right? Maybe that's why it looks more pronounced.

Yeah, 20deg conical. It look weird but we cant do otherwise.

Did all heads done now!!!(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190426/06a996a214e7e3be830350490fa23812.jpg)

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Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: glorfindel on April 29, 2019, 10:43:22 PM
I did the valve retainer today. I changed the design to a simplier one, using the same c-clip than the rocker shaft. one.

Need some deburing tho ;-)

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190429/ff18fbebae3af534a85d85a3d7a45f98.jpg)

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Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: glorfindel on April 30, 2019, 02:51:19 AM
Those springs on the pic are not the good one.

I checked the spec of a 0.03 piano wire, 10 coils 3/8 ext. diam., 1"" fl. and it gave me something like 3pounds.

Someone measured it??

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Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: glorfindel on May 02, 2019, 07:32:40 PM
Here are my modifications.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190502/efc3a14c09ba7f7b78dd5466a61929a2.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190502/5b4829a137b33f3d43e66a62aa89a4b2.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190502/29013392d707363f5cdf41180c8735b9.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190502/6c3451cfe3d59a333a5108341e10ebaa.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190502/505d33a03388623054a5c7c4eb68d341.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190502/79b87f1efd0b69980ea7c5c8635b4110.jpg)

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Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: glorfindel on May 02, 2019, 07:38:42 PM

Forgot this one ;-)

I had to do it by 0.5" of lenght.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190502/e9eaa1c8f5333e996f79f9158096ead9.jpg)

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Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: glorfindel on May 06, 2019, 08:29:16 PM
I've had problems making the 4-40 screw, it was braking at the very last threading pass.

So, i took a 4-40 socket head screw and i simply made the 0.125" sphere in the socket!!

I converted one end of my push rod to a spherical end.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190506/e5a50ac219fcff9eec53838a228caf19.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190506/472b4d6e0d7be7cca735b3130e390636.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190506/eb9681e74cfe3d4edb2b800d0dfec903.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190506/6397096ee4e0289f870db2b547287fff.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190506/ecfe1eafecd612669e0345e5c09cf78b.jpg)

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Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: Kim on May 07, 2019, 05:09:08 AM
That's a pretty clever solution!
Kim
Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: glorfindel on May 07, 2019, 12:33:51 PM
Sorry about the finishing surface of my push rods. It suck. I'll do better for the next one.

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Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: glorfindel on May 07, 2019, 12:37:11 PM
That's a pretty clever solution!
Kim
I dunno how small you can go tho. I was not sure if i would be able to "remove" all the hexagonal socket, but with a .125" ball nose instead of the 0.080", it was ok.

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Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: glorfindel on May 08, 2019, 09:00:32 PM
Piston's pins and pin's end.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190508/02a8a1a099e4019ef142de068220e7b9.jpg)

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Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: petertha on May 09, 2019, 06:12:51 AM
Is that your own mod? Maybe I missed, I didn't see wrist pin pads on the original drawing? What keeps them attached to the ends?
My radial is a bit different. Wrist pin ends are slightly drilled & the pads have a little corresponding boss that fits in there. I'm not sure if its supposed to be permanent or no though.
Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: glorfindel on May 09, 2019, 11:11:58 AM


Is that your own mod? Maybe I missed, I didn't see wrist pin pads on the original drawing? What keeps them attached to the ends?
My radial is a bit different. Wrist pin ends are slightly drilled & the pads have a little corresponding boss that fits in there. I'm not sure if its supposed to be permanent or no though.

Original design call for an O.S. engine pin with  "polymer" end.

The ends are a little bit bigger than the pin, so i hope it will do the job.



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Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: glorfindel on May 09, 2019, 11:14:33 AM
I did another dumb mistake yesterday. I was reaming the ends of my rods, then i took the 1/4 reamer instead of the 6mm (both were on the table) to do the end of my master rod...

Dumb me.

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Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: Admiral_dk on May 09, 2019, 04:46:09 PM
Oh man - that could have happened to me too  :facepalm2: - maybe paint the 1/4" red on the shaft as a warning in the future  :thinking:

Since there is a lot of work in the masterrod - do you open the rest (or at least one piston for a 1/4" pin, change the bronze bearing (if there is one) is probably the easiest ….
Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: glorfindel on May 09, 2019, 06:41:19 PM
Oh man - that could have happened to me too  :facepalm2: - maybe paint the 1/4" red on the shaft as a warning in the future  :thinking:

Since there is a lot of work in the masterrod - do you open the rest (or at least one piston for a 1/4" pin, change the bronze bearing (if there is one) is probably the easiest ….
I made 2 of those some times ago.

When you got all the cnc prog done, it's easy to do a couple of those ;-)

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Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: petertha on May 09, 2019, 08:04:17 PM
The ends are a little bit bigger than the pin, so i hope it will do the job.
Not quite sure what you mean there. I assume pads have to be the same diameter as wristpin to recess in the pistons hole? And the wristpin length + 2 pads must be less than bore by some clearance amount? What am I missing?
Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: glorfindel on May 09, 2019, 08:09:08 PM


The ends are a little bit bigger than the pin, so i hope it will do the job.
Not quite sure what you mean there. I assume pads have to be the same diameter as wristpin to recess in the pistons hole? And the wristpin length + 2 pads must be less than bore by some clearance amount? What am I missing?

The pads are a little bit bigger (diameter) than the wristpin, so they should stay in place.

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Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: Admiral_dk on May 09, 2019, 10:10:54 PM
Quote
The pads are a little bit bigger (diameter) than the wristpin, so they should stay in place.

Yes, but that way, they might also be a pain in the proverbial if you ever need to get things apart again ....
Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: glorfindel on May 09, 2019, 11:32:00 PM
Quote
The pads are a little bit bigger (diameter) than the wristpin, so they should stay in place.

Yes, but that way, they might also be a pain in the proverbial if you ever need to get things apart again ....
I hope a gentle tap will do the job ;-)

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Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: glorfindel on May 10, 2019, 06:14:04 PM
Ring blank is ready to be sliced by the wire edm.

Then the will be heat threated at 950F for about 10min.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190510/480983f8224e53c5863e00bebe7ce260.jpg)

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Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: glorfindel on May 13, 2019, 04:15:30 PM
Waiting to be sliced.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190513/abe2d7c162cf2efa924f8607c95c9d86.jpg)

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Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: glorfindel on May 14, 2019, 07:31:46 PM
Heat treatment seems to have worked!!!
No big deal with TTT curves.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190514/e66e2f4cf3ef87304d203535631bd0cb.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190514/c77425381dbe0d3724c180d5d188b65b.jpg)

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Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: glorfindel on May 14, 2019, 10:07:39 PM
For those who are not familiar with ttt curves.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190514/14ae9fc2f5352ac8e3a08601fa43fceb.jpg)

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Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: glorfindel on May 15, 2019, 03:05:33 PM
Those little things are brittle arent they? ;-)

I will have to make some more lol!!(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190515/5c701b601f47b6ffb9d384068e49bea2.jpg)

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Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: Admiral_dk on May 15, 2019, 04:52:30 PM
Quote
Those little things are brittle arent they? ;-)

Yes and they always has been when made from cast iron - don't know if you can do the same tempering as with hardening in order to improve matters ….  :thinking:
Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: yogi on May 15, 2019, 06:04:38 PM
You have access to a wire EDM. That is awesome. I’m actually a little bit jealous.  :Lol:
I enjoy seeing the engine come together.  :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: glorfindel on May 15, 2019, 07:00:40 PM
Quote
Those little things are brittle arent they? ;-)

Yes and they always has been when made from cast iron - don't know if you can do the same tempering as with hardening in order to improve matters ….  :thinking:
I made 12, only 5 make it to the piston lol!!!!

I'll get better ;-)

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Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: glorfindel on May 15, 2019, 07:02:53 PM
You have access to a wire EDM. That is awesome. I’m actually a little bit jealous. 
I enjoy seeing the engine come together.  :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
I'm blessed to have access to those fancy tool !!

It work great to cut the rings. Ut's the most precise tool we got, about +/- 0.00003

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Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: glorfindel on May 17, 2019, 04:55:49 PM
Sliced 16 flanges yesterday!!(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190517/3dbf9bcda0cfc21d1c83cb60059eeb3a.jpg)

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Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: glorfindel on May 21, 2019, 05:44:55 PM
Those oil ring gave me some trouble!!!

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20190521/aba79bb2627ec0425383f8f171a725e2.jpg)

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Title: Re: Edwards 5 Cylinders.
Post by: glorfindel on June 04, 2019, 12:57:57 PM
That will be about it for now guys. I'm out for about 2 month!!!

To do list:

-Intakes/exhaust tubes.

-Taping 1/4-32 glow plug threads.

-Electrical circuit for the glow plugs.

I hope my first protoype will work. I already have new ideas for my own design based on the Edwards.



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