Model Engine Maker

Engines => From Kits/Castings => Topic started by: Jo on June 20, 2018, 08:04:25 AM

Title: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jo on June 20, 2018, 08:04:25 AM
The Wall Wizard is a 45CC Horizontally opposed twin engine that was designed by Elmer A Wall in 1933, in Chicago, Illinois. Lets be honest I would not call it pretty  ::) But Elmer claimed that "that the engine was so well balanced that it would "start on the first turn-over if machined properly and that it would idle down to a tick or roar full speed when the throttle is opened."  :noidea: ... So I am hopeful I might be able to make a running engine   :)


Most recently these castings sets could be purchased from Coles in the States but no longer. My particular set was extracted purchased from Mike Paitence, Worthing UK who is a fellow model engine casting hoarder enthusiast. Sadly during Mike's fondling sessions the flywheel was lost from the set  :ShakeHead: and if it ever had a base we will never know  :disappointed:

Initial casting fondling has shown that the crankcase machining is going to need to have to be a compromise  :facepalm2:

Jo
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jo on June 20, 2018, 09:03:30 AM
A visit to my Supplier allowed me to have a dig through his scrap bin before the scrappie took it away and I came up with three pieces of bronze to make the flywheel out of. Ok yes I know that I am not fond of shiny bronze bits on engines  :hellno: but decided that it might make the engine a little prettier and bronze silver solders together ok.

Stick the two smaller bits together  to provide the required width, make some spokes and turn up the ring. then follow on with a bit of fettling to make the pieces more rounded in appearance before silver soldering together. Turn the rim true by holding on the boss.

The flywheel is now ready to have its taper cut, which will be done at the same time as cutting the taper on the crankshaft  ;)

Jo

P.S. I roughed out the crankshaft last autumn when I was at home recovering  :embarassed:
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on June 20, 2018, 07:26:48 PM
I’m really going to be watching this one Jo; as I have a set of castings that have been aging for a couple of years. I kinda thought about a 12-14” prop in place of the flywheel  :thinking:.

Big E
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jo on June 20, 2018, 08:00:34 PM
Hi Big E  :)

Pleased at least one person is interested in this engine  :ThumbsUp: I was getting worried no one was interested after I suggested this is not a pretty engine   ::)

I kinda thought about a 12-14” prop in place of the flywheel  :thinking:.

It would need a big one something around a 24"+ Prop  :paranoia:

Jo
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: b.lindsey on June 20, 2018, 08:37:35 PM
Well a Victorian Beam engine it ain't, but still quite an attractive engine in its own right Jo. Hmmmmm….I am thinking Eric is holding out on us as to what he may have in his collection. May have   to send Roy D. Mercer over there to Tennessee to check things out. (Big E will understand this) Anyway, carry on, I am sure a lot of us will be watching  ;)

Bill
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jasonb on June 20, 2018, 09:13:11 PM
Was it originally designed to run anything in particular?  and was the smaller pully on the flywheel used for starting or to take a belt?

At least your pinkies will be safer with the flywheel so you could even play with it by yourself, having a throttle it won't get away with itself unlike the open venturi aero engines.
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on June 20, 2018, 09:51:31 PM
Excuse me Jo. Bill, tell him to come on but he better brang a bunch of old boys with him  :lolb:. Jason, I want to say that in full scale they were targeted to the early home aircraft builders . Can’t say for sure: maybe I dreamt it  :shrug:. Perhaps Dave Otto has a clue  :stickpoke:.

Cletus
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: zeeprogrammer on June 20, 2018, 09:52:56 PM
I think it looks interesting. I'll be following along.  :popcorn:
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Dave Otto on June 20, 2018, 11:37:18 PM
Excuse me Jo. Bill, tell him to come on but he better brang a bunch of old boys with him  :lolb:. Jason, I want to say that in full scale they were targeted to the early home aircraft builders . Can’t say for sure: maybe I dreamt it  :shrug:. Perhaps Dave Otto has a clue  :stickpoke:.

Cletus

I don't know, I think he just liked designing and building model engines. Here is an excerpt from an article in a 1932 Popular Science magazine.

“For a number of years, an experimenter in Chicago, Elmer A Wall, has been turning out unusual miniature gas engines for model air planes and boats”

There used to be a tribute web page to Mr. Wall but I can't seem to find it right now.


Dave
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: zeeprogrammer on June 21, 2018, 12:19:49 AM
There used to be a tribute web page to Mr. Wall but I can't seem to find it right now.

Is this it?

It's an interesting story.

http://modelenginenews.org/gallery/p18.html
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Dave Otto on June 21, 2018, 01:07:01 AM
There used to be a tribute web page to Mr. Wall but I can't seem to find it right now.

Is this it?

It's an interesting story.

http://modelenginenews.org/gallery/p18.html

Not exactly the one I was thinking of, but probably contains the same information, thanks Zee.
 
Dave
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: b.lindsey on June 21, 2018, 02:16:03 AM
Interesting....thanks zee.

Bill
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: wdeputy on June 21, 2018, 05:32:31 AM
The catalog lists it as being 1.5 HP (1.2KW) and "a favorite for model boat enthusiasts".
Walt
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jo on June 21, 2018, 06:34:16 AM
Big E I do not think that it was designed with aircraft in mind as the bearing arrangement uses a pair of standard ball races rather than a thrust bearing which is what you would expect if it was designed to take a prop. If you wanted to build a twin Aero engine then the Aeronca is rather nice (Castings are available) :embarassed:

Walt's right I could see this as a big boat model engine or maybe as it is compact being used to power a small generator.

Jo
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Vixen on June 21, 2018, 07:52:13 AM
That flywheel is a nice piece of fabrication work. Did you say what the diameter is?

Mike
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jo on June 21, 2018, 08:05:03 AM
Thanks Mike, it is just under 102mm diameter.

The crankcase castings are all over the place :facepalm2: So the first problem is to decide how much I can take off each surface to square it up so that it can be held. The aim is to be able to first machine the face where the two castings join (leaving boths sides the same thickness), then the base making sure the top of the castings are the same height and lastly the two ends so that the front and the back of the shaped part of the castings seem to align. Nothing to it really  ::)

Best not look too closely at the positioning of the feet relative to all of this as they will be hidden under the gubbins  :-X

Then I needed a couple of sketches to find where the holes would need to be for the next step beginning the machining using the DRO to set it out: The first drawing shows the positioning of the cylinder and tappet block relative to the centre line of each casting and the second the line boring detail needed once the two castings have been put together :)

Jo
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jo on June 21, 2018, 08:23:04 AM
I've dug out some more information on Mr Elmer Wall from a 1933 Model engineer Magazine and it appears that this engine was available earlier than I thought so have updated my first post in this thread accordingly

Jo
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Gas_mantle on June 21, 2018, 08:57:30 PM
I've dug out some more information on Mr Elmer Wall from a 1933 Model engineer Magazine and it appears that this engine was available earlier than I thought so have updated my first post in this thread accordingly

Jo

Hi Jo, I look forward to seeing how the build goes.

This ebay advertiser seems to imply it dates from as early as 1929 but I appreciate that may not be correct

https://www.ebay.ie/itm/engine-ELMER-A-WALL-WIZARD-45CC-DE-1929-41-/262837188166
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Craig DeShong on June 22, 2018, 12:05:39 AM
Hi Big E  :)

Pleased at least one person is interested in this engine  :ThumbsUp: I was getting worried no one was interested after I suggested this is not a pretty engine   ::)

As my Dad told me when I was a wee lad, "Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder".






Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Dave Otto on June 22, 2018, 12:13:07 AM
I'm always interested in your projects Jo.

Dave
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Ian S C on June 22, 2018, 03:28:24 AM
What's not pretty, I like it. Pity about the problems with the castings.
Ian S C
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Art K on June 22, 2018, 03:46:04 AM
Jo,
I'll be following along. I like Wall engines. As for the casting squareness problem maybe you should have made them from bar stock? :lolb:
Art
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jo on June 22, 2018, 10:20:19 AM
As for the casting squareness problem maybe you should have made them from bar stock? :lolb:

 :lolb: I am not that strapped for cash  :hellno:

We have some reference surfaces. But there is still going to have to be compromises. I should have put the mounting holes in the middle of the feet rather than to drawing one is decidedly to one side. First up drill and tap so the two sides fit together then bore the holes  for the cylinders and tappet block. The existing holes were well out of position  :facepalm:

I may have mentioned working with castings is a compromise  :-\ Yu can see both tappet blocks while central to the cylinder are offset on the casting. And before you ask yes I know the left hand casting has the its tappet block a little high and there seems to be extra on the tops of the feet but if I took more off the bottom then the tappet block would have needed to go higher on the casting and as it is there was barely enough to skim it :disappointed:

Jo
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jasonb on June 22, 2018, 10:43:56 AM
Bit of work with a die grinder or dremel and some needle files will soon have those tappet bosses equal around the holes.

What is the ali like to machine hard or gummy?
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jo on June 22, 2018, 11:08:32 AM
What is the ali like to machine hard or gummy?

Its a bit gummy: One would have thought it would have hardened with age but my guess is that these were not heat treated either  :(

Jo
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jasonb on June 22, 2018, 12:05:33 PM
Have you tried any lubrication? (For the metal not a glass for yourself) as it looks like you are cutting dry.

Alternatively give them back to your little custodian to let them age for quite a few more years until you retire :LittleDevil:
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Gas_mantle on June 22, 2018, 12:30:06 PM
Alternatively give them back to your little custodian to let them age for quite a few more years until you retire :LittleDevil:

...or sell them to me  ;)
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jo on June 22, 2018, 01:21:48 PM
:hellno:


Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jo on June 22, 2018, 04:27:03 PM
The castings were mounted on Tgs' bed and everything squared up (and checked using a torch )

I needed a big boring bit so made up a suitable one. Of course Tgs has the head room for this sort of job  :ThumbsUp: So then it is just a case of engage the vertical power feed and wait for it stop at the end, repeat until it reaches the suitable size for the covers - I turned up the covers while the power feed was doing its thing so I could check the fit  :ThumbsUp:

The cam shaft hole was the same length which is a long hole :facepalm: first drilled and then reamed to suit the declared size.

While it was all set up the holes for the covers could be drilled and tapped. Thankfully when it was turned over the casting looked in line there as well  :wine1:

Jo

P.S. Big E have you fondled your connecting rods yet :facepalm2:
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Bluechip on June 22, 2018, 05:30:07 PM
Hi Jo

Coming along well ..  :ThumbsUp:

I notice the finning on yours is rather more generous than the illustration from ME 1933  :thinking:

The ones on the first pic. look to be aluminium and the earlier cast iron. Or just an artefact of the image ???

Dunno about you, too damned hot here. Up to 30.4oC at one time in the garage .... had to slink off back into the house to correct my electrolyte balance.
Well, shove a couple of cans down my neck and doze off in front of the telly actually  but it was the best I could do.  :D

Dave


Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jo on June 22, 2018, 06:27:36 PM
The ones on the first pic. look to be aluminium and the earlier cast iron. Or just an artefact of the image ???

Dunno about you, too damned hot here. … Well, shove a couple of cans down my neck and doze off in front of the telly

Both are aluminium fins on a cast Iron liner  ;)

That's the advantage of owning your own property/living on your own you don't have your partner/parents telling you off for enjoying a couple of  :wine1: on a Friday evening relaxing after a stressful week at work  :embarassed:

Jo
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Bluechip on June 22, 2018, 06:33:38 PM
OR

Friday evening relaxing after a stressless week not at work  in my case ...  :Lol:

Dave
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Roger B on June 23, 2018, 08:11:24 PM
Wall did a few interesting designs, I look forward to seeing how this one runs  :)  :wine1: Perfect throttle response  ::) ?
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jasonb on June 24, 2018, 07:04:34 AM
Did they need much throttle response? Back in the 30s I would not think the means to control them was the same as a modern RC radio and may have just been intended for a tether boat where you just set the throttle and that's it.
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jo on June 24, 2018, 08:03:41 AM
Thanks Roger  :)

Perfect throttle response  ::) ?

Back in the early days most model engines were for aircraft and they were either running on full throttle screaming away or not running. So any design that enabled you to have speed control must have been something worth making a fuss about. Being able to have a boat chugging along with a nice four stroke sound must have been something special  :wine1:

Jo
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Gas_mantle on June 24, 2018, 12:52:42 PM
I rather like the look of the engine, it strikes me as an odd design if it was meant as a boat engine though. Wouldn't it make more sense to have a tall thin engine in the confines of a hull rather than a low and wide engine ? I guess it will have a low centre of gravity and maybe improve stability though  :headscratch:

Anyway, I'm off to steam up my wobbler on the hot stuff in the Yorkshire sun   :pinkelephant:
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jo on June 26, 2018, 01:19:22 PM
I have turned up the cylinder and the fins and fitted to two together only to be told off for making the fins a heat fit on the cylinder  :slap: I have been told this can distort the bore and that it should only be a sliding fit ::)

As I was planning on Smelly's help to hone the bore I had assumed he would true up any discrepancies  :noidea:

Jo
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Dave Otto on June 26, 2018, 01:40:50 PM
Seems that if you hone the cylinders after installing the fins, it wouldn't matter. Do they think the cylinder is going to continue to shrink?

You are making good progress.


Dave
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jasonb on June 26, 2018, 01:53:07 PM
I suppose if the engine gets hot while running(I'm making an assumption here) the aluminium will become looser and may allow the part of the cylinder that was compressed during honing to expand and you would loose compression right where you need it at the top of the stroke.

Can you not heat them back up and slip the fins off to skim them to the correct fit?

J
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Dave Otto on June 26, 2018, 02:02:14 PM
There are an awful lot of full sized engines out there running with iron sleeves pressed into aluminum, I'm having a hard time believing that it is going to be a problem.

Dave
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Ramon on June 26, 2018, 02:08:58 PM
Hi Jo, you may recall that this was exactly the scenario that lead me to lapping/honing when this very situation occurred on the cylinders for the Bentley.

If the liner is longer than the fins and is finished before shrinking the fins on then unless the liner is very thick walled distortion is more than likely to occur. When I did the Eta Elite Mk 2 which required shrunk on fins I machined the liner bore after doing so to alleviate this problem. Honing may not be the initial solution but a lap certainly will, followed by honing for a good finish

May be worth running through the first couple of posts on here again ?
http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,1908.0.html (http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,1908.0.html)

Tug

Just seen your reply Dave - as you can see this did happen to parts made before but I grant you the liners were thin - just 1mm thick if I remember. I have a feeling but may be completely wrong as have no experience of it that possibly full size the bores would be machined after the shrinking - as per the Eta perhaps?
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Bluechip on June 26, 2018, 02:24:20 PM

Just seen your reply Dave - as you can see this did happen to parts made before but I grant you the liners were thin - just 1mm thick if I remember. I have a feeling but may be completely wrong as have no experience of it that possibly full size the bores would be machined after the shrinking - as per the Eta perhaps?


Vincent bores were 84mm with a shrink fit of 5-6 thou. IIRC. They were then honed to very near size. Then left overnight for all the ( inherent stresses ? ) to subside. Then honed to size.

I have recently seen this referred to somewhere. I'll see if I can find which brain cell has the link ...  :noidea:

Dave

Gorrit .....

http://sumpmagazine.com/classicbikespecialists/vincent-spares-repairs-maughan.htm

Wind down to the bit about cylinders etc.
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jo on June 26, 2018, 03:58:51 PM
Thanks for looking in guys  :)

Smelly was doing a good job at lunch time sadly some of us still have to work for a living  :facepalm: I hope to get back on to it this evening when it cools down out there.

Jo
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: john mills on June 26, 2018, 04:11:40 PM
As an apprentice i had to fit cast sleeves to alloy blocks small single cylinder originally running in an alloy bore.
The block bored with not as much as .005" interferance a .020 "step at the bottom 3/8" long.The step turned on the sleeve .The block was heated so the sleeve would drop in to the step.left to cool .then just bored and honed as normal.the cylinder borer left a good finish so only .0005"for honing and it was difficult to hone much more.
I never saw any that i did come back .
STD A SIZE SLEEVE FOR 1/16"WALL THICKNESS  these engines were about 3" bore.
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Ramon on June 26, 2018, 04:23:16 PM
There you go then - bored then honed after shrinking - confirms my thoughts John  :ThumbsUp:

I have no full size knowledge or experience but do have a fair bit on small I/C engines - I can only speak as I found I guess. Doesn't take much for piston to be tight (or loose) in a bore in those sizes.

Thanks John - Tug
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jo on June 26, 2018, 08:07:52 PM
I thought it might be useful to have the pistons to check the bores with. These are two castings which had a nasty casting line in the piston skirt and the bore in the skirt was already over size  :ShakeHead: But this was cleaned up so that tailstock support could be provided as the piston was taken to size and the grooves for the rings cut. There are also cavitation grooves in the lower part of the piston but I am not sure if they are needed  :headscratch:

H drilled and reamed the Gudgeon pin hole for us. Which then allowed me to use each piston to test how the honing was going.

Both cylinders have been left to rest with the pistons a tight sliding fit. Tomorrow once they have had plenty of time to temperature stabilised I will let Smelly give the cylinders a final hone.

Jo
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Art K on June 26, 2018, 11:13:27 PM
Jo,
I'm still following along. As for liner to cylinder, what Dave said. When I built VAL it called for some sort of round steel cylinder. Instead I used square fins matching the head. Aluminum cylinder and cast iron liner. If I recall ci & aluminum have similar expansion rates and shouldn't go anywhere.
Art
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jo on June 27, 2018, 03:28:35 PM
Thanks Art  :)


Further discussions with my supplier has indicated that as this piston has rings that I am looking for a piston/cylinder fit such that is I put the piston in the cylinder it will slide happily up and down the bore if I "rattle it". We are still not sure if those cavitation grooves are really needed, Eric was concerned they might weaken the piston  :noidea:


Its a bit hot for the workshop this evening so I might take Dave's advice and relax and watch the world go by  :wine1:

Jo

P.S. I don't know what all this rubbish is about the availability of beer there was plenty of that fizzy stuff in the shops earlier  :headscratch:
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: crueby on June 27, 2018, 04:00:53 PM
What are the cavitation grooves supposed to do? Is it part of spreading oil or something?
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jo on June 27, 2018, 04:24:52 PM
What are the cavitation grooves supposed to do? Is it part of spreading oil or something?

They are supposed to catch the oil as the pistons go in towards the crank and drag it up the bores  :noidea:

Jo
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: b.lindsey on June 27, 2018, 04:33:29 PM
Jo, what kind of interference fit did you have between the liners and the aluminum fins?

Bill
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jo on June 27, 2018, 04:45:12 PM
I don't recall the measurements: they were "thinking" about going together but not quiet so I warmed the Cylinder Muff gently and put the liner in freezer. The warm Muff slid on up to the shoulder and it not going to come off and there is no gap for any nasty coke to try sneaking into  :hellno:

Jo
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Art K on June 27, 2018, 05:52:34 PM
As I recall I put the liner in the freezer and the cylinder in the oven and put them together with the arbor press.
Art
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Bobsmodels on June 28, 2018, 10:30:16 PM
Jo

Somehow I just saw this thread.  I have one of these little beasts.  I picked it up at gas engine swap meet in Portland IN.  It was sitting on a trailer fender, with a trailer full of large hit and miss engines.  It had the prints and after some give and take on price it was mine.  I have only run it a occasionally and it does scream.  I could never get it to idle down, lots of issues, the float valve sticks and you have gasoline pouring out, not good.  I had been told by several owners that they put a different carburetor on it, ie a model airplane carb.  Someday I will get it going with all the original parts.   I have some nice small old Champion plugs for it.  The engine had been run a lot, there is wear in rocker arms to the point I may need to rebuild them, one keeps falling off after a short time.  It does get very hot, so I am not sure just how long it could run wide open.  I am sure with some TLC it would be a nice running display instead of a static one.

Thought you would like to see the fly wheel.  It has a notch in it for a rope start.  It has started most times on the second pull. 

Looking forward to seeing yours in action.

Bob
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jo on June 29, 2018, 06:25:06 AM
Thanks Bob  :)

It is always nice to see other engines.  :thinking: It looks like the Wall evolved over time the earlier engines have the spark plug sticking out horizontally while yours is one of the later ones with them on top of the engine.

Thanks for the warning on the carb  :ThumbsUp:

Jo
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jo on June 30, 2018, 03:32:24 PM
The piston rings were cut from the spare bit on the end of the cylinder liner a few days ago but for some reason I turned a couple to 1.65mm rather than 1.6mm  :headscratch: So Mr Silky skimmed off the offending .05mm for me. The rings have had any sharp edges taken off the inside edges and they fit nicely in the grooves with a little bit of space for sliding  :)

Breaking the rings is easy: Using a vice and a pair of pliers they can be gently snapped and the face where it broke cleaned up with a needle file. Then the gaps checked in the bore we are looking for at least 0.1mm per 25mm diameter of bore for the gap ;) The rings were then pushed over a piece of steel and hung in the foundry hearth and heated to red hot until they fell from the hanger steel and left to cool in the hot hearth.

While waiting for them to cool I finished honing the pistons and then Mr Silky turned them to finished length for me. At the end of which the rings were done and can be stored for later.

Which just left the need to give both the cylinder and the pistons a little boil in water with a little washing up liquid. So it must be time for a  :wine1: with qualifying  :naughty:

Jo

Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Stuart on June 30, 2018, 04:28:58 PM
Nice work there Jo

Was the food tender I would have thought 20mins. Per kilo plus 20 over should have been ok  :stir:

88’s
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jo on June 30, 2018, 05:15:27 PM
Thanks Stuart.

Was the food tender I would have thought 20mins. Per kilo plus 20 over should have been ok  :stir:

I normally go for 20 mins per lb  ::) but I do like to cook my Steak such that you can still hear it Mooing as it runs around the plate as I try to prong it with the fork :naughty:

Jo
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Bluechip on June 30, 2018, 06:47:04 PM

I do like to cook my Steak such that you can still hear it Mooing as it runs around the plate as I try to prong it with the fork :naughty:

Jo

Bleaaagh !! 

Thousands of years ago some pre-Neanderthal Geezer sweated his rocks off to perfect the art of fire-making to cook meat. All for nowt it seems ...  :thinking: 

Maybe evolution has gone into reverse ...  :shrug:  Back to my Pud Noir and mashed tatties ... well, frozen mash from Iceland ...  :ThumbsUp:

Dave

Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jo on June 30, 2018, 08:09:10 PM

Bleaaagh !! 

Thousands of years ago some pre-Neanderthal Geezer sweated his rocks off to perfect the art of fire-making to cook meat. All for nowt it seems ...  :thinking: 

Thankfully we have bred better meat on the hoof than he had to eat in the intervenient period  ::)  The cheaper poor quality stuff is best slow roasted to make it edible ;)

Jo

Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Stuart on July 02, 2018, 08:35:19 AM
What the ekk have I started  :stir:

Eating animals what next uggg
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jo on July 23, 2018, 01:05:02 PM
Gudgeon pins.... What I hear you ask is there difficult about making Gudgeon pins  :headscratch:

Gudgeon pins are normally hollow. The hole through the gudgeon pin is termed a long hole (depth of cut relative to the diameter of the drill) .... this means that there is a good chance that the drill will get bored and start going for a wander on the way through leaving one end with the hole off centre :facepalm: This is not really a problem except that on the ends of the pin goes two little brass caps to prevent the bore getting scored if the pin moves. If you try turning these caps out of 6.35mm bar stock they will be off set  :(

Where the Gudgeon pin is 6.35mm diameter I have chose to make the caps out of 7mm brass (= a scrap size that was found in the drawer). Initially the brass is centre drilled and then turned to be a press fit in the Gudgeon pin. I know the drawing doesn't show it being drilled but if you try pressing the two end caps into place without the hole you will end up with trapped wind air which is going to get hot when the engine runs (assuming the engine actually runs  :facepalm2: ) and push the caps onto the bore of the cylinder  :ShakeHead: These caps need to be a good fit in the gudgeon pin but be warned if you drill after turning the brass will grown and it will not fit the pin  :disappointed:

Once parted off these little caps might seem like they will be difficult to hold but we are going to press one into each gudgeon pin, turn the pin to size and complete the drilling holding the gudgeon pin in a collet chuck. then fit the other cap and repeat the turning and drilling. the drawing shows these caps as square  :hellno:  they need to be domed, this is because when the pin goes into the piston the shape of the piston is curved and by the time you get the gudgeon pins in the edge of the brass cap would be proud of the piston skirt.

The two pins with caps have both been drilled (and the inside de-swarfed  ::) ) the only other thing I should mention is that the gudgeon pin hole in the piston was reamed with a hand reamer: as you know hand reamers have a taper and on the pistons we want one pin hole slightly smaller as it will lightly hold the gudgeon pin and stop it from moving around  ;)

Jo
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jo on July 23, 2018, 03:14:23 PM
I have been wondering about the cylinder head again: On some of the Wizards I have seen the sparkplug is mounted on the top and on others it is on the side of the engine. I had assumed that there was an early and a late design but it looks like a variation in the way the engine is built  :noidea:


Looking at the GA it shows the bent rocker arms mounted on a pivot post and the spark plug at the top surface  :thinking: The other arrangement is using the cylinder head turned round and the place where the pivot post goes as the sparkplug hole  :headscratch: and then taking two posts off the top of the cylinder studs. It does let the push rods run more parallel about the cylinders but a smaller spark plug would also do that.

So guys: Is the spayed rockers one of the "features" on this engine that gives it character/

Jo
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jasonb on July 23, 2018, 04:27:35 PM
Are the Rockers actually "splayed" to me it looks like the rockers are in exactly the same positions and the only thing that varies is on one they pivot off a single central post and on the other they have separate posts that are extensions of the head nuts.

Rockets still pivot in the same plane so apply their force directly down onto the valve

Unless you have a photo that shows this "splay". Or a side view of the engine.

J

PS You could drill your gudgeon pins from both ends and have a lot less hastle
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jo on July 23, 2018, 04:42:35 PM
One pic with spark plugs at the top, one on the side. On one design the arms have a noticeable bend (3.2mm) on the other they are straight.

I did drill the gudgeon pins from both ends but the drill still wandered.

Jo

Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jasonb on July 23, 2018, 05:17:24 PM
I can see it now, was not that obvious from the top or side drawing views that they were bent, only the more splayed push rods.

Would not say its that mach of a feature that it would make or break the look of the engine. Top plug may be a bit less prone to flooding but wiring will not be as neat as the side plug which could be kept short and go straight down into the display base.

50/50 for me either way, so do what you fancy unless someone else knows of a specific reason for one over the other.
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jo on July 23, 2018, 07:14:07 PM
I keep forgetting to drill the cylinders for the studs. The drawing shows the holes through the fins very tight for the studs but I chose to let Tgs drill them 3.6mm rather than 3.2mm for the 5BA stud. A tricky drilling operation as other than the top surface each fin presents a reverse tapered edge to the drill trying to encourage it to go off line  :ShakeHead: so I let Tgs use a four facet drill and gravity to drill the stud holes.

A quick family shot then as the sun has finally got on my workshop  :( it must be time to come in for a drink  :wine1:

Jo
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Admiral_dk on July 23, 2018, 07:44:04 PM
From personal taste and a technical point of view, the top picture is a no no - bad (tools) access to the plug (between the rods) and a lousy flame-front => risk of ignition problems .... If it was part of a two plug system, it might have made a bit more sense  :noidea:

But that shouldn't stop you - especially if it was that way originally ....

Another of your builds I look forward to see run  :cheers:  :popcorn:
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Bluechip on July 23, 2018, 07:45:01 PM
Mein Gott ! I can only salute your perseverance ....  :ThumbsUp: 

At 08:30 I had 28oC in the garage and that was  IT !!!  I gave up.

Just got hotter after that. Eventually up to 38.6 oC at 14:00 ish. 

Fan no help at all. Just wafts hot air about.  :shrug:  Decided to disappear indoors for 'ring-pull' practice interspersed with dozing ....  :old:

Dave





Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Roger B on August 02, 2018, 08:28:14 AM
Still following in the background and enjoying  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp:  :wine1: You could always make one cylinder head/rocker assembly in each style and decide which one you like best  :stir:  :stir:  :LittleDevil:
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jo on August 02, 2018, 09:07:12 AM
Hi Roger,

I am leaning towards having the spark plug coming out of the side. Seemingly this was as shown on the original blue prints which my supplier forgot to bring me when he visited last week  :rant: We assume they moved it due to the plug being at the far bottom of the cylinder and it oiling up  :Doh:

Update on progress: I have done a little on the distributor but work on the Wizard has been delayed due to my early retirement and preparing for the possible arrival of another member of the house hold: my Mobility Vehicle  :mischief: By the end of the week I will need to go back to work for a rest  :ROFL:  or I might use a couple of hours in the workshop as a rest   ;)

Jo
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jo on August 10, 2018, 03:53:49 PM
As I did not have a piece of suitable rod insultator to make the distributor cap out of I was forced to use a bit of an old test jig and machine it to fit  ::) having worked out where I could take the required 38mm out of avoiding any of the existing feature the centre was marked and the piece set up in the four jaw. Here it could have the inside bored and the hole drilled that goes through the top.

Having found a suitable piece of scrap ali it was turned to fit the inside of the cap, centre drilled and tapped to take a 1/8th whit cap screw. This was then used as a jig to enable the outside of the cap to be machined.

Before being again used to hold the cap while the holes on the outside were drilled. I still need to make up the brass studs for it  :)

Jo

Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jo on August 10, 2018, 04:07:47 PM
Below the insulting cap is the distributor cap base casting  :pinkelephant:  this takes a bit of thinking about: The tendency will be to hold it by the chucking piece and turn the front face first  :ShakeHead: What needs to happen is the opposite we need to turn the back face and the chucking piece while holding the large diameter in a chuck. With the chucking piece at the required 9.53mm it gives us not only the finished surface but also lots to hold on to in a collet while we turn the front face to be a nice tight fit in the cap.

The cap can now be taken over to have the holes drilled in it: The two to mount the insulting cap need to be tapped and the other two are to mount the contact arm on to.

Only now do we look at removing the excess chucking piece on the back of the cap. Mounted in a three jaw with suitable pieces of protection (ali drinks can held in place with double sided sticky tape  :naughty: ) With the base casting held by the chucking piece in a drill chuck in the tailstock the chuck can be tightened around the casting with the knowledge that it is all nice and square and then the unwanted material can be finally removed  :)

And while I have been at it I have started the rotor arm   :wine1:

Jo
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jasonb on August 10, 2018, 04:17:46 PM
Can't see much difference between work and this retirement lark, you still seem to spend Friday in the workshop  :LittleDevil:

I wonder if that Oilron bar you have would be a suitable insulating material? would save having to cut up flat stock.
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 10, 2018, 04:41:30 PM
Good pics and details Jo.  :popcorn:

@Jason: What is 'Oilron' bar?
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jo on August 10, 2018, 05:00:14 PM
Can't see much difference between work and this retirement lark, you still seem to spend Friday in the workshop  :LittleDevil:

I have been told that it takes about a month to realise that you are not on a really long holiday which will end at some point with the usual drudgery to look forward to   :)

Zee: Oilon is a type of self-lubricating plastic used to make gears. It has oil in it which I was not convinced was all that good for high voltage applications  :noidea:

Jo
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jasonb on August 10, 2018, 05:00:59 PM
Helps if I spell it right :-[

https://www.directplastics.co.uk/oilon-rod
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 10, 2018, 05:25:29 PM
I have been told that it takes about a month to realise that you are not on a really long holiday which will end at some point with the usual drudgery to look forward to   :)

Just a month?  :disagree:

Zee: Oilon is a type of self-lubricating plastic used to make gears. It has oil in it which I was not convinced was all that good for high voltage applications  :noidea:

Thanks. The spelling threw me off.
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jo on August 12, 2018, 06:48:06 AM
A rummage at the local model engine drawing library has brought to light one of the original Wizard blue prints which shows the alternative head arrangements.  :thinking:

It should be enough to capture the dimensions for the alternative parts :noidea:

Jo
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jasonb on August 12, 2018, 07:15:25 AM
Does seem very low in the cylinder which suggests it may have been moved due to oiling up of the plug or it getting whet when the engine flooded.

Maybe top mount would be a safer option as it is two less things to stop it running.
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jo on August 12, 2018, 04:06:37 PM
Having had a very nice visit from Dave (Bluechip  :) ) it was time to finish off the Distributor:

The three studs on the cap were turned from some 7mm diameter brass. Turned and threaded 5BA, parted off and domed by hand. Two studs are 17 mm long to go into the sides and the top stud is 16mm long. If you look inside the cap you find that the mounting holes for the HT leads are very close to the bottom of the bore so it is necessary to mill a flat on one side of the heads.

The rotor arm is a simple turning with a piece of 0.8mm thick brass as the pickup, which had to be bent up to bring the centre up to rest on the top terminal.

The distributor is finished. Now it is time to think about what to make this coming week now that I don't have to go to work any more  :whoohoo:

Jo
 
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Bluechip on August 12, 2018, 04:41:10 PM
Having had a very nice visit from Dave (Bluechip  :) )
Jo

Aaah ....    I've come over all unnecessary ....  :embarassed:  The pleasure was all mine ...  :-*

Conducted tour of the garden.
Three mugs of tea.
Got rid of some more stuff.
And a free Fig to boot ... what's not to like.  :cartwheel:

Apart from taking four hours to get back ....  :disappointed:  Where DO all these buggers come from ?? M25 clogged solid for miles. Does one's humour a power of no good looking at 40 MPH limit signs on the overhead gantries while you sit there thinking Continental Drift would be quicker ....  :rant:

Anyway Jo, see link for 'apparent'  ????? unsuitability of SRBF for high voltage.

www.directplastics.co.uk/tufnol-sheet

I wonder if it would be an improvement to the surface resistivity if it was sprayed with Conformal Coating as per PCBs ??

Just a thought while my sausages cook.    :thinking:  :headscratch:

Dave

Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Admiral_dk on August 12, 2018, 11:16:13 PM
I wonder if it easily carbonizes from exposure to high voltage ....  :thinking: .... :zap:

I have certainly seen this happening in tube Amps. Here a arc-over usually ruins the socket and it is simply impossible to clean them well enough afterwards to guaranty that the error don't come back ....  :zap:  :Mad:
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jo on August 13, 2018, 06:37:45 AM
Tufnol was the thing for making high voltage thingies back in the 1950's. I wonder if the advice has changed over the years as better material has come along  :noidea:

Jo
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Bluechip on August 13, 2018, 07:52:06 AM
SRBF was the thing for making high voltage thingies back in the 1950's. I wonder if the advice has changed over the years as better material has come along  :noidea:

Jo

Not sure about that. I was working with the stuff in the '60's and for anything above (maybe   :thinking: ) 50V or so it was always SRBP as in the 'Kite' brand from Tufnol.

https://tufnol.com/sectors/electrical.aspx

T'other stuff now is  ( FR4 ? ) PCB laminate which is a glass / epoxy.

The only time I can actually remember parts, usually turned bushes etc., being made from SRBF was for low voltage stuff ...  :headscratch:

What would YOU call high voltage? 

Dave
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Stuart on August 13, 2018, 08:04:51 AM
Well Dave


<=240vac is considered low voltage
440vac medium voltage

Now those were in place when I Wxxked for a living

Things get interesting at 11kvac and above

BTW it’s no fun in a OCB  cubical with the truck out phasing out with two resistance stacks in hand watching the sparks fly

Now where is the van de graf machine for some serious volts ,or a nice Tesla coil  :zap:



Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jo on August 13, 2018, 08:53:36 AM
I think I have let the cat out of the bag  :paranoia: At this point guys I am going to claim innocence and blame my supplier for recommending it to me  ;)


As it is a Monday I feel the need to go and make some swarf  :ThumbsUp:

Jo
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Bluechip on August 13, 2018, 09:29:44 AM


As it is a Monday I feel the need to go and make some swarf  :ThumbsUp:

Jo

Quite right too ...  ;D  Like I said yesterday, try it. See what happens.

It may well be that SRBF is not considered suitable in some HV applications because it degrades over time. If you don't run the engine much ( ? ) it isn't a valid argument ....  ;D


Back to wood butchering ..  :(

Dave
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Admiral_dk on August 13, 2018, 12:00:48 PM
I think that it is rather interesting that the two links Dave supplied has different explanations about Tufnol.

The later link from tufnol.com claims very good electric specifications and the wholesale company has slightly different naming conventions and very different electric and very good mechanical specifications - makes me guess that it's from a different manufacture who specialize in the bearing qualities of their version.  :noidea:
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Vixen on August 13, 2018, 12:25:33 PM
Hello Jo
'
I am not sure that SRBF /Tufnol is the best choice for the distributor cap. At the very least, I would seal the surfaces with a PCB conformal coating. The 'as cut' surfaces will act as a magnet for dirt and grime; arc over and tracking will quickly follow. I would consider remaking the dizzy cover in Delrin.

I have 20 metres of 20KV 3.0 mm diameter silicone ignition wire, coming on the slow boat from China. You could have a spare metre or two to test.

Mike
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Bluechip on August 13, 2018, 12:34:15 PM
I think that it is rather interesting that the two links Dave supplied has different explanations about Tufnol.

The later link from tufnol.com claims very good electric specifications and the wholesale company has slightly different naming conventions and very different electric and very good mechanical specifications - makes me guess that it's from a different manufacture who specialize in the bearing qualities of their version.  :noidea:

The first link gives 1P13 Kite & Whale

1P13 SRBF
Whale SRBF
Kite SRBP  only this is a type is considered reliable insulator.

The second link selects  only the electrical grade laminates. Hence they are all suitable as you might expect.  :)
If you look elsewhere on this site for 1P13 & Whale I suspect the two opinions will be the same.

Dave

Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jo on August 16, 2018, 06:19:13 PM
The balance weights for the crankshaft come as two castings. The top was milled flat and the centre milled and drilled out for the mounting screws. turning the weight over and locating it using the drill it is possible to quickly relocate the casting to counterbore for the screwheads. The weights can now be tried on the crank.

I decided to use a bit of 16mm square as a jig: First drilled and tapped in the side for the balance weight screws it then had each weight screwed on the side for turning. First the back which yet again was a bit close  :o and then a fair bit to come off the front.

Cleaning up the undercut was interesting as there are no measurement on the drawing but as I already knew the casting was very tight  I decided to cheat and use a boring head on the mill to pick up the existing profile and give it a skim. Just the taper and the thread needed on the crankshaft  :thinking:

Jo
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Dave Otto on August 16, 2018, 11:08:13 PM
Nicely done Jo, good idea on the fixture to turn the weights. :ThumbsUp:

Dave
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Roger B on August 20, 2018, 08:55:43 AM
Interesting thought using a fixture block. I have always turned the balance weights when they are fixed to the crankshaft.
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jo on August 21, 2018, 04:00:31 PM
This is one of the exhaust flanges: It is undersized  :( that boss on the top has to be bored out 12.7mm and it is starting out at 13.8mm which does not leave a lot. Having given the back a rub on some abrasive paper to flatten it off and using the boss to hold the flange by it was stuck on a bit of old steel in one of Mr Silky's collets.

It was horrible, snatched and came off the glue mount at this point I decided that that wafer of metal around the flange was not enough and it would need correcting. So knock up a couple of new bosses at 15mm diameter, silver solder into place and then use that boss to hold the part while turning the backs.

Before I drilled the mounting holes I decided to check with the size nuts the drawing asks for and  :facepalm: look at that no way is a nut that size going to fit, even one size down is too tight  :ShakeHead: So I decided to go for 7BA studs rather than the 5BA the drawing shows which means they need to be drilled 2.5mm not 3.5mm and as I have not done the heads yet the drawing has been updated for those as well :)

I will need to think about the inlet castings, they are all solid without any obvious means to hold them  :thinking:

Jo
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jo on August 23, 2018, 08:12:27 AM
The easiest of the inlet castings to do was the centre one which has two flats on it and can be held in a vice.

The longer of the elbows had a simple jig made so that it could have its flange mounted true for drilling the mounting holes. Cutting to depth was scary  :paranoia: I think I might have come a bit close but it did not break through

Now for the tricky one   :thinking:

Jo
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Admiral_dk on August 23, 2018, 11:53:04 AM
That is a very tricky part to make Jo.

I have a 3D "drill bit" for wood the brown stuff (it's a combo of a drill and a mill bit) that can drill around corners - looks like you could use something similar here  :noidea:
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jo on August 23, 2018, 01:24:11 PM
Thanks Per they have been a bit taxing especially as I seem to have caught a summer cold  :facepalm2:

Having got confidence with the first one, on the second I tried holding it in the vice and turning the vice to square up the flange before drilling it (the piece of post-it is for use as a feeler gauge so I don't drill into my vice jaws  :hellno: ).

about this point I decided to play it safe and run a little silver solder in the corners of the pipes where the bronze had deflected where the cutters came a little close to the outside: This would mean that there would be less likelihood to break through during polishing  :)

I turned up a little button so I could use it to file the ends circular but fund it also provided enough of a grip so I could hold the castings while "hand planing" under the wider part where the copper pipes will be fitted later.

Three inlet flanges polished and ready for fitting next I need to find something simple while my head is still suffering from this cold  :noidea:

Jo
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jo on August 24, 2018, 04:18:52 PM
I have decided to use a piece of silver steel for the camshaft. Having turned the end to be a nice fit in the bearing it seemed like a good time to drill for the 7BA screws while it was easy to hold on to.


Then the remainder of the lobes could be roughed out. A bit of confusion set in about now  :facepalm2:  while I tried to work out if the drawing was right and it really meant that I should cut both inlets/exhausts in the same position relative to each other... then it dawned on me  :facepalm: of course the camshaft goes round half the speed of the crank so yes both need to be machined at the same angle as the crank goes round it will be correct :old:

Jo
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Roger B on August 24, 2018, 05:30:42 PM
Those manifold parts were tricky little things  ::) How are you planning to cut the cam lobes?
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jo on August 24, 2018, 05:36:54 PM
I am hoping to do it using the dividing head: I can get 5 degrees by using an 18 hole wheel, then I just need to work out the offsets  :noidea:

Jo
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Roger B on August 24, 2018, 07:45:01 PM
I use a 60 tooth change wheel for direct dividing giving 6° There is an offset calculator on the MEN website.
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jo on August 24, 2018, 07:58:10 PM
Thanks Roger  :)

Typo there  :Doh: a 18 tooth wheel gives 0.5 degrees

Jo
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Roger B on August 25, 2018, 07:35:29 AM
0.5 degree steps is rather fine, 3 degrees should be sufficient.
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jo on September 18, 2018, 04:03:44 PM
To encourage me to get back on with this engine I took the blank wizard cam over to visit my supplier today and we discussed ways to machine the cam :)


It seems that someone had been in contact before I got there and put his order in for two sets of Wall castings to replace the Wizard.  Surus seemed to be expecting them when I got home so I have left him fondling his new castings hopefully at some point I might be allowed to have a fondle as well   :noidea:

Jo
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jasonb on September 18, 2018, 04:10:16 PM
Don't tell the little fellow I have the castings for that Fairbanks on the front cover of his comic :-X
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jasonb on September 18, 2018, 05:13:29 PM
I am hoping to do it using the dividing head: I can get 5 degrees by using an 18 hole wheel, then I just need to work out the offsets  :noidea:
Jo

Back to the cam, why do you need to workout offsets? it has flat flanks so you only need to know the base radius as that is the only height needed. If it had curved flanks and you were also machining a radius to the lobe then it would be worth doing by offsets but not for a simple profile like this.

I'd use the rotary table as you are going to want angles smaller than 5 degree intervals to get those tangental flanks in the right place.
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jo on September 18, 2018, 05:24:14 PM
That was the problem it all seemed too simple... We had to check if I had missed something. The dividing head set up with a 18 hole wheel gives 0.5 degree increments  :).

Surus says best he does a quality check on your Fairbanks casting set just in case you are not looking after them to make sure they are not getting that pre aged patina that Graham specialises in  ::)

Jo
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jasonb on September 18, 2018, 05:43:49 PM
Not much point in working it out to 0.01 degrees then if you are only working to half a degree.
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jo on September 18, 2018, 06:39:09 PM
The critical measurements are that one cam is machined round until 5 degrees either side of the datum and the other 10 degrees either side. Having first set the milling cutter to leave 11.8mm diameter on the root of the cam. 

Machining wise: do the shared face first and then the two outer ones and then remove the waste in what ever steps you fancy finishing with a file or as I will be some abrasive paper on a stick  :)

Jo
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jasonb on September 18, 2018, 06:51:04 PM
Not sure where you are getting your 5 and 10 degrees from, if you want to end up with the 1/8" and 1/16" widths shown on the drawings then the angles are nothing like that.

Also no shared face, draw it out in Alibre and you will see that.
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jasonb on September 18, 2018, 07:23:09 PM
I would set it up at "zero and make the first cut down to the base radius as pic 1

Then rotate one turn of my handwheel and make another pass as pic 2

Then repeat until I get to 248.29deg. Pic 3

For the other lobe with the 1/16" dim start at 119.95deg and work round to 18.13 degrees

* just check the cams are the right phase I I did not bother with that just the 115Deg

Bit like this one except your can will be horizontal and cutter vertical

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v156/jasonballamy/Hit%20n%20Miss/Half%20Scale%20Gade/IMAG3632_zps8txwfrre.jpg)
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jo on September 18, 2018, 07:23:27 PM
 :headscratch:
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jasonb on September 18, 2018, 07:37:56 PM
Now try it with the correct base radius of 0.250" :insane:
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jo on September 18, 2018, 07:47:28 PM
The base radi is not given   :disappointed:

Jo
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jasonb on September 18, 2018, 07:58:51 PM
Or it was missed off your later Coles drawing, it is shown on the original Wall Drawings as per my post above
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jo on September 27, 2018, 10:12:42 AM
Mr Silky has taken the four cams down to the required 18.4mm and the exhaust have been marked in blue and the inlet red. At this point I realised I need to machine the opposite way to the drawing  :facepalm:

Mounting the cam blank in the dividing head the rough position of the tops of the cams were marked as a safety feature and I started doing the first cut. At this point I realised I had not checked that the worm would engage in the position that I had cut the flat :Doh: But luckily the last job I did used the worm and the 18 hole wheel so I got away with that one   :-X  As things were looking potentially a bit flexible I decided it was a good idea to add a machinist's jack under the cam while cutting.

The cutting chart has been put up on the white board for marking up  ;)

Before starting the second cut I checked the line of the cutter at the rear (why is it always the rear  :ShakeHead: ) of the work. At this point I felt a desire for strong coffee and a couple of Jaffa cakes before continuing  :paranoia:

Jo
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jo on September 27, 2018, 11:55:06 AM
Having machine the flats for the exhaust the inlet was tackled in the same way. Then the wanted parts of the lobes coloured to make sure I didn't over cut. I initially chose to cut flats but the last bit I used the handle on the indexer to free rotate the cam as it cut. I rounded one pair first then the second pair.

Checking against the drawing it looks like they are in the right position  :)

That wasn't as bad as I thought it was going to be :thinking:.

Jo
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Roger B on September 27, 2018, 12:12:17 PM
Cams are fun  ::)  That looks good  :ThumbsUp:  :ThumbsUp:  :wine1:
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jo on September 28, 2018, 04:09:08 PM
Thanks Roger, yes they have lots of opportunities for adding unintended features on camshafts ::)

Having turned up the other end of the camshaft it was time to start looking at assembling it into the crankcase and checking the alignment of things. When I originally machined up the crankcase I noticed that one side of the case was thicker than the other and put it down to a slipped core - the crankshaft halves are symmetrical and on looking to fit the camshaft gear it is clear that one way round fits and the other doesn't.

The supplied Boston gear for the crankshaft originally had a 9.5mm bore and needed to be 12.7mm bore so it was bored out to fit the crank. When I came to the cam gear I noticed the hole in the gear is also 9.53mm but the drawing shows 7.94mm  :facepalm: just the sort of thing you need last thing on a Friday afternoon  :(

Enough joys for this stressful week of retirement. I have just presented Surus with a 500mm long 40mm diameter piece of EN8 and he has suggested that I should make us a nice meal then we could do a bit of casting fondling :wine1:

Jo
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jo on September 29, 2018, 08:21:58 AM
 :thinking:

Having thought on the gear problem I have decided it would be better to Loctite a sleeve to the camshaft rather than sleeve the gear. I have justified this to myself as:

The sleeve is going to be 9.53mm O/D and 7.94mm I/D which is rather thin and once turned up not very wide either.... Loctiting it on the crank will be against a flange whereas in the gear it could be pushed out  :facepalm2: And I think the sleeve on the crank could possibly a bit wider.

I considered boring out the hole and putting in a bigger bush but that increased hole size would be even closer to the mounting holes and the gear centre has to be thinned down.


The important question is do I do it before or after some gardening  :noidea:

Jo

Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jasonb on September 29, 2018, 10:28:36 AM
As the sleeve is a bit thin walled you could loctite a thicker one on and skim it down in situe, Step the OD if you don't want it to slide out and counterbore the gear to suit.

Shame you did not look at the gears first as you could have turned the shaft with a larger diameter.
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jo on September 30, 2018, 08:37:12 AM
The gardening won out yesterday so hopefully I can get back into the workshop today and finish off the camshaft gear and the sleeve.

Yes JB I intended on turning up a larger diameter sleeve and loctiting it on the camshaft then turning it once the Loctite is fully cured.

Suddenly with a crankshaft and a camshaft in the cases the build begins to look a bit more engine like and each little bit made becomes more significant :)

Jo
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jo on October 04, 2018, 04:15:36 PM
Having made the necessary studs for holding the cylinder covers on I realised  that because this engine has ball race it needs to have bolts rather than studs to hold the covers on so I had the opportunity to make some bolts after I had already made all the studs   :facepalm: This is not all bad as I could make the bolts with reduced head size rather than having to make a bunch of reduced A/F Nuts to use which always look horrible  :disappointed:

Finally with the camshaft and crankshaft in place I tried turning over the crank to find it jammed.  This was tracked down to the cam hitting the followers due to the guides being 0.5mm over length. this gave another opportunity to dismantle everything to take the guides out and the cam follower guides were taken over to the BCA, clamped to the bed and the unnecessary bit skimmed off (while some idiot got the pic out of focus  :-[ )

I still have not worked out why the drawings show a blind hole between the two follower holes on the cam follower guide  :headscratch: To finish the day I have now hardened the faces of the cam followers which means it must be time to go and find out which casting set Surus thinks is due a fondling this evening - assuming I am allowed near any of them  :thinking:

Jo
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Vixen on October 04, 2018, 07:36:59 PM
Jo,

The Wall is becoming a very interesting looking engine. You are lucky to have the casting set, hacking that crankcase out of a billet would have taken a long, long time.

How old is the design? The fractional dimensions in inches, dates it rather.

Mike
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jo on October 05, 2018, 07:11:21 AM
Hi Mike,

Yes the Wizard is an interesting engine but I would not call it pretty. I am sure someone like JB would happily hack a prettier looking crankcase of a bit of bar stock like he did with the Stuart lightweight (but he used the wrong material so we will always know it is a copy not an original by just picking it up ;) )

All of the Wall engine designs are pre war, many of the designs seem to mirror what Westbury did in the UK only the Wall engines are bigger  ::) 

Jo
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jasonb on October 05, 2018, 08:28:27 AM
Bit of yellow paint on that crankcase will pretty it up :ThumbsUp:

I can't think of a reason for that extra hole in the guides, it is not really a light engine so can't see it being done to save weight.

The only Wall engine I like the look of is the horizontal single, if anyone should have a set of drawing please let me know.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/15794235@N06/29044361916/in/album-72157670117040594/
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Roger B on October 05, 2018, 07:35:23 PM
As you say it's looking more like an engine  :) The middle blind hole is a bit strange, maybe it's a relic from a previous design. Wall certainly had a number of designs, but probably nowhere near ETW.
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Tennessee Whiskey on October 05, 2018, 07:45:34 PM
I’m taking notes and making mental pictures, as I have a set of these castings aging under the bench. Don’t think I’ll be at the pay grade that qualifies machining for a few more builds yet. I sure hope I have castings and drawings that are “non Jo” i.e. undersized castings and incorrect drawings. Poor gal seems to get all of her and Surus’ stuff like that  :shrug:.  :popcorn: :DrinkPint:

Big E
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jo on October 05, 2018, 08:27:34 PM
Have I mentioned the connecting rods yet Big E  :-X

Often with these earlier engines the original (1930's) patterns were made in wood and somewhere over the years they were used to make aluminium masters, or often they used an existing casting set, either of which already had shrinkage so if you used them as a pattern so you would get double shrinkage  :Doh:

The good news is that none of these engines are high precision  :)

Jo

Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Vixen on October 05, 2018, 08:44:23 PM
Hi Jo,

Would it not be better to machine the simpler, higher stressed items, such as conrods and pistons from a solid billet. That way you get it to the exact size and made of known material. Crankcases and the like are often better from a casting.

Mike
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jasonb on October 05, 2018, 08:50:30 PM
Or if you want to keep the supplied conrods alter the Wrist pin position and or head of the piston to compensate for any loss of length then you can keep to the designed compression ratio.
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jo on October 06, 2018, 07:19:28 AM
I have already made the pistons out of the supplied piston castings and they have been fitted to the cylinders http://www.modelenginemaker.com/index.php/topic,8215.msg176619.html#msg176619 :)

Part of the challenge of using castings to make model engines is to overcome any shortfalls in the castings if all else fails then I can always resort to the easy way out and use bar stock but I don't like to give in without at least trying to use the supplied castings.  Its like I enjoy the challenge of sorting out Orphaned models :D

Jo
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Vixen on October 06, 2018, 09:04:51 AM
Hello Jo

Agreed, always better to use the supplied castings, whenever you can. I thought you had a problem with seriously undersize castings due being copied (perhaps several times) from previous casting rather than the master patterns.

Mike
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jo on October 06, 2018, 09:14:52 AM
Morning Mike  :)

These are castings from Betty Coles - we are not sure of the vintage.

They are not one of someone else's specials - he has the sense to coat the original castings with a thick dollop of paint to take up the shrinkage  ::)

Jo
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jo on October 07, 2018, 01:13:25 PM
Just for Big E a step by step blow of the connecting rods: They are too short  :facepalm: and made of blancmange  :ShakeHead: This means that they are a right  :censored: to hold.


We need a jig  :ThumbsUp: And because the two ends are different thicknesses one end will need packing up. What ever you do don't clamp in the middle  :hellno: Did I mention they are made of blancmange? Two bits of steel will act as clamps.

Now we need to line things up: Having marked the jig with a centre line over its edge and put in two tapped holes for the bores, a point can be used to hold one end while the other end is lined up and clamped down. We can now drill and ream the small end through the hole that was drilled in the clamp for the job  ;) It would be nice now to use a bolt with a bush into this hole but the tapped hole is going to be filled with swarf that even the shop vac couldn't dislodge  :-\

Now I can hold the connecting rods to work on the big end. First borrow a slitting saw off of Sexy  :Love:

Jo



Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jasonb on October 07, 2018, 01:23:43 PM
Will you be soldering a slip of bronze onto one of the faces to regain the lost length?
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jo on October 07, 2018, 01:41:06 PM
Yes :agree:

Jo
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jo on October 07, 2018, 04:39:38 PM
Sexy's slitting saw is 1mm thick, if only it had a zero thickness then it would have been possible to part off without having to add a bit  :-\

The bit added was a .8mm piece of brass sheet, which was silver soldered into place and then cleaned up. The holes were supposed to be 5-40 UNC but 1/8th Whit is easier to come by this side of the pond and much, much easier than trying to find 5BA cap heads :)

The first rod is mounted up for the first day of the working  :naughty: week.

Jo
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Bluechip on October 07, 2018, 06:46:39 PM
Surely not 50 - 40  UNC ??

You can get 5-40 UNC A2 cap screws, and a lot more UN stuff, from here. Trawl around the site.

https://www.pts-uk.com/products/socket-screws/socket-cap-screws/inch-a2/u9125400500

Good people, used them when I was at w**k. 

Nice going BTW...  :ThumbsUp: 

At the risk of being strung up by the wotsits for heresy, why not M3?  Near enough 5BA IIRC.

Dave


Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jo on October 07, 2018, 07:57:26 PM
You are right 5-40 not 50-40. Its been a bad day :toilet_claw: I started by tapping them 4-40 UNC and wondered why tap went in easy and the Whit screws did not fit  .

A lot of Westbury's engine use 5BA caps on the big ends which are rare as rocking horse Do-das these days. 1/4 whits are available - cheap as chips  ;)

Jo
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Bluechip on October 07, 2018, 08:21:03 PM

Its been a bad day :toilet_claw:

Jo

Too true ... Knee is now about shot after crawling about in the roof space   :(  Stuff the transformers.  :Mad: 

J. still at home but not very good at all    :( 

Thought I had two pies in the freezer, actual value = zero.   :noidea:  Emergency order to Sainsbury's.

Dittto Pork Scratchings.

Runny nose ..

Life here is so much fun I never stop laughing. Probably because I never start ..  :headscratch:

Have fun.

Dave



Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jo on October 07, 2018, 08:25:27 PM
If you think you have problems just be thankful you don't have nuts that look like mine   :embarassed:

Jo
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jasonb on October 07, 2018, 08:41:26 PM
Couple of crackers you have there Jo  ;)
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Stuart on October 07, 2018, 08:52:38 PM
Jo
Obviously not had adult mumps they are the same size  :facepalm:
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jo on October 08, 2018, 07:01:39 AM
This is the first year for Wallnuts and I think there are another 3 on the tree  :)

Jo
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Stuart on October 08, 2018, 07:14:55 AM
Oh they fit the wall engine  :stir:

Thought they were   :censored:  :lolb:  :old:

I will get back in my cage now
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Roger B on October 08, 2018, 10:15:25 AM
Hi Jo, you described the connecting rods as being made from blancmange. Is this normal for bronze castings? I know a lot of the older designs used cast bronze con rods but this seems a little weak  :headscratch:
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jo on October 09, 2018, 05:09:13 PM
Sadly Roger yes the bronze castings are easy to mark and if you clamp without a solid support under the clamped part easy to bend  :(


It was soooo embarrassing: I came to make swarf only to find flat batteries on the camera - so please imagine the missing pics  :-[

What with one visit or another I decided better not to bore the connecting rods so something easy - the caps for the valves. Now these are small and fiddly but only once they are removed from the bar stock so the aim is to do most of the difficult machining while it they are still attached to the parent metal.  Start by finding a suitable short piece of bar and machining the underside of the valve cap on both ends and drilling a hole in the centre. You now realise why it is a short length of bar as this is now mounted in a vertical support (like Tgs 5C collect holder) and the little slot milled using the central hole as relief for the cutter (so it does not break). Take the piece of bar back to Mr Silky and part the little caps off over length.

At this point I found a tooling feature  :facepalm: it took a while to find  :ShakeHead: I don't know if anyone has found this but some 5C collets seem to fit more snugly than others in a 5C holder the 7.5mm did not want to go in. At first I thought the slot might not be deep enough and the locating pin was too deep, I did find a bit of a burr on the end but having removed that it still was :disappointed: I then got a 5C block out and tried fitting the collet in it and  :o found the body of the collet was 31.8mm not the normal 31.75mm so it was that which was refusing to go in. Mr Silky taught it a thing or two and took the offending 0.05mm off  :ThumbsUp:

This then allowed the tops of the valve caps to be held by the step that fits into the springs and turned to thickness. At this point I remembered to go check the camera battery had charged and took a pic of the final item :DrinkPint:

Jo
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jasonb on October 09, 2018, 06:52:59 PM
I notice you are using those inferior drawings again that don't show the counterbore, without it your spring retainers may slide off or at the very least won't stay central :disappointed:
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jo on October 11, 2018, 04:52:40 PM
Did you notice that on the old drawings there are two different drawings for the caps and the valve guides and the valves ::)


Having made up a go/no go gauge I could bore the big ends. Because of that slither in the gap I had to first use a four flute over end cutter to give me a flat surface where the hole was to go then could drill the centre bring the bore slowly up and finish with a boring head. The finish being proven with the gauge  :ThumbsUp:

The rods can then be mounted up on a mandrel and the faces of the big end turned.

I still have the little end to round but as you can see one side is nice and central but the other side is a bit off due to the casting being slightly out of line.  :-\

Jo
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jasonb on October 11, 2018, 05:06:40 PM
Did you notice that on the old drawings there are two different drawings for the caps and the valve guides and the valves ::)

Yes and BOTH show a counterbore so that when the spring pushes against the retainer it is held centrally by the counterbore on the upper full diameter of the valve stem. One drawing mentions the counterbore the other just shows it. The later Coles drawings have missed it off.
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jo on October 14, 2018, 04:12:55 PM
A few weeks ago the tops of the cylinder heads were machined and made so that they could be mounted on a jig - now comes time to make use of that jig  to hold the head in the four jaw chuck. The part of the head that needs machining is the inside face not the outside and we use the outside curve of the head to centre with - to do this I am working by eye using the edge of a tool and moving the head in the four jaw until the tip of the tool follows the outside of the head as I rotate it.

The first step is to bore the diameter to fit the barrel liner, then using a round nosed tool the inside corner of the head can be machined.

The result is the heads can now be fitted with the cylinders on one side of the crank case and everything begins to look more engine like  :)

Jo
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jasonb on October 14, 2018, 04:38:56 PM
Is that a flaw in the casting shown in the round nose tool pic? if so lucky it fell between where the two valve seats will be :)

Is the radius to reduce the risk of a stress fracture or better firing?
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Mike Bondarczuk on October 14, 2018, 05:50:06 PM
Jo,

Inspiring work you are performing in this new posting.

Looking forward to challenging you with some off the Clarkson castings at the show.

Mike
.
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Roger B on October 14, 2018, 06:55:26 PM
Looking good  :praise2: What's the boring tool you are using before the profiling tool? The valve area seems quite small for the bore, but I guess that's the way things were  :headscratch:
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jo on October 15, 2018, 11:15:58 AM
The top of the plug mounting was taken down to 1.6mm above the theoretical diameter of the bottom fin of the head and a 9mm hole drilled where the plug is going. Then using a M10 * 1.0 tap the plug thread tapped.

The plug looks about the right size but it does not have sufficient reach so I need to buy some more longer ones  :-\

Jo
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jo on November 02, 2018, 04:41:54 PM
I hummed and hared but decided to finish turning up the valve guides and to push them in to place before drilling the exhaust and inlet ports on the head. This means I can now see how deep the valve guides are in the head and can plan the position of the ports breaking through such that they leave space for the valve seats.

I have chosen to make the valves in two pieces and silver solder them together. This has the advantage of not wasting lots of material and the 3.18mm diameter stainless already is the correct diameter and has a nice finish all the way down, the chances are if you try turning such a long spindly stem it will bend away from the tool somewhere along the length if held between centres and you will get a thick bit which will not fit in the valve guides :facepalm: or with a travelling steady the metal can ride up if a bit  of swarf gets caught and you will get a groove  :(

Tomorrow I hope to finish turning up the valves  :)

Jo
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jasonb on November 02, 2018, 05:56:26 PM
I thought you may have cut them from solid and collected up the swarf to save having to splash the cash on a couple of scouring pads for the Robinson :Lol:

Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Dave Otto on November 02, 2018, 11:37:37 PM
I thought you may have cut them from solid and collected up the swarf to save having to splash the cash on a couple of scouring pads for the Robinson :Lol:

She must be, as my friend Max says, giving the Robinson the silent treatment.  :lolb:

That is an interesting little press Jo, I have never seen one like it?


Dave
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jo on November 03, 2018, 08:39:50 AM
She must be, as my friend Max says, giving the Robinson the silent treatment.  :lolb:

How long did the Pacific Vapor Engine take Dave? And if his posted progress is to be believed JB hasn't been in his workshop for weeks I accept that those of you who still have to work can use that as an excuse as you don't get much workshop time  :disappointed: But at least you can look forward to retiring at some point in your future (maybe)

Which reminds me I have some heavy thinking to do... what shall I do today  :noidea: difficult, difficult  :thinking: hang on it is the weekend  :o I don't notice those sneaking up any more  :-\ , everyday is just one long weekend/holiday once you are RETIRED  8)   Saturday is gardening with my Dad day  :)

Jo

P.S. That is a Elliot size 0 press Dave, they were used for pressing pins into PCB boards on production lines. That one was sat unloved when I helped clear some old Clarkson Sanderson beam engine castings at a deceased estate sale I mentioned it looked "cute" :naughty: so they threw it in my box with the rest of the bits for me  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jasonb on November 03, 2018, 10:18:21 AM
Did not think people would be that interested in photos of paint drying Jo so have not been posting the progress on the final touches of the R&V Vertical, but your engines never get to that stage anyway ;)

You must have also missed the bit of machining from last night posted elsewhere today.

Oh and I did turn the inlet valve for the Allman, luckily my equipment allows valves to be turned from solid and I can fine tune the fit rather than use probably undersize stock in an oversize H7 or H8 reamed hole. Does that finish on the barstock not get lost when you clean them up after soldering?

Then there was the video of boring a 100mm dia hole on a Sieg mill that all the old school with their outdated old iron said can't be done and I managed it with ease :shrug:
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jo on November 03, 2018, 03:25:05 PM
It seems to be taking a long time to paint but then I suppose it does if you want to achieve a good job, I'm not a lover of painting. Positive thinking at least you won't have to give the R&V back to its owner  :ThumbsUp:

Yes missed that I rarely go to the Model Engineer Magazine site as they don't make model engines :( and when they do they seem to be Choochoos   :facepalm:

Getting technical on fits doesn't help all the members understand what you are on about and these standards are different around the world: The valves will be a good working fit in the valve guides. The stainless is 1/8th and the guides have been reamed with a 1/8th reamer, pressing them in the hole may have reduced the centre hole size in the guides but as I have a choice of only standard tolerance reamers and not a full every known tolerance set so that will have to do  :shrug:

So which model engine was the 100mm hole for? I don't think we have seen that one   :headscratch: I've just taken delivery of a new side and face cutter, its not quite 100cm and I don't think it is going to give a very good finish so there will have to be a bit of tidying up after  :disappointed:

Jo

Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jasonb on November 03, 2018, 03:47:13 PM
Well if its worth doing , you may as well do it right and there are a lot of bits to paint. Especially when you have to etch prine, High Build prime, colour prime (2 colours). paint (2 colours) clear fuel proof. Oh and heat resistant black for the exhaust.

Wrong forum it was on here I posted

Does not matter what size reamer you have when the valve is turned to fit. When you say running fit do you mean to say that this one will run :LittleDevil:

I only bored a bit of scrap to show it can be done. The guy managed it on his SX2P without a problem, its for his traction engine, this is his finished hole

(https://www.model-engineer.co.uk/sites/7/images/member_albums/174283/815562.jpg)

And me doing it on a couple of scraps of finger plate using the SX2.7

ENBbPieW3ss
Not a bad finish on mine

(https://www.model-engineer.co.uk/sites/7/images/member_albums/44290/814824.jpg)

Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jo on November 03, 2018, 04:33:24 PM
Have you thought of doing a thread about painting models? After all you do it day in day out as part of your trade and the rest of us do it very infrequently as a hobby  :)

Fits: So why are you trying to confuse us with H numbers? What we need to know is the difference in measurements needed between a hole and a valve so that the engine will run properly. I personally use the feel of the fit.

Yes a 100mm hole is a bit of a non event but some members do not necessarily have the confidence to use their machines to their full capability. As you say even a hobby machine has no problem taking off a 1mm cut in aluminium with a suitable carbide tip.

Jo
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jo on November 04, 2018, 08:24:47 AM
Well if its worth doing , you may as well do it right and there are a lot of bits to paint. Especially when you have to etch prine, High Build prime, colour prime (2 colours). paint (2 colours) clear fuel proof. Oh and heat resistant black for the exhaust.

I somehow suspect that they didn't go to such lengths on most original engines  :headscratch:. They probably did more along my lines: prime and 2 top coats  ::)


Sunday  :thinking: I wonder if I will get some spare time to do those valves today, this retirement lark is hard work  ::)

Jo 
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jasonb on November 04, 2018, 10:15:53 AM
I doubt that they did either but they did use the same sort of sand for both full size and our castings so the texture needs to be scaled down hence the prep work, filler primer etc.

Funny enough someone else asked me about writing something about how I go about painting models but they were willing to pay :LittleDevil: End of my Gade thread is where I usually direct people as I went into a bit more detail on that build.

J

PS Got that Robinson running yet :stickpoke:
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jo on November 04, 2018, 10:27:27 AM
The Polly Wobbles Robinson castings are as smooth as a baby's hum  ::)

Take the money, take the money, your pension fund needs it  :ThumbsUp:

PS Got that Robinson running yet :stickpoke:

I have been playing with the bonfire   :embarassed: I hope to go and play after lunch, I need to check the bounce after the seizure the other day  :thinking:

Jo  :old:
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Dave Otto on November 04, 2018, 05:00:15 PM
She must be, as my friend Max says, giving the Robinson the silent treatment.  :lolb:

How long did the Pacific Vapor Engine take Dave? And if his posted progress is to be believed JB hasn't been in his workshop for weeks I accept that those of you who still have to work can use that as an excuse as you don't get much workshop time  :disappointed: But at least you can look forward to retiring at some point in your future (maybe)



Can't say because its not finished yet.  :)  Still hoping for this winter though.
I guess what's important is that we work on what makes us happy at the time.

Dave
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jo on November 10, 2018, 05:36:38 PM
The valve heads had a centre drill hole added so that I could support them using a half centre, lubricated with some Rocol  :ThumbsUp: this allowed first the face, then the back face to be cut using the same carbide lathe tool, then the back cleaned up using a parting off cutter being careful not to score the shank of the valve.

At this point I found that the head was too thick  :toilet_claw: So it needed about 1.4mm milled off each. While I was at it I decided to drill/mill the exhaust and inlet ports. First I had to find the centre of the port, then it was a simple act of drilling and boring. I was a bit concerned about getting the right amount of movement on the valves, having put them together it is clear that the valve tapers are going to have to be cut well so that they are level with the face on the head. Did I mention I cut made a cutter out of silver steel to cut the valve seat while I was cutting the valves  ::)

Jo

Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jasonb on November 10, 2018, 06:45:22 PM
Jo, is it just an optical illusion or something on the drawings as the valve angles look quite a bit steeper than usual?
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: zeeprogrammer on November 10, 2018, 07:12:16 PM
Just caught up on the last 5 pages. Very enjoyable.  :ThumbsUp:

Retirement seems to suit you well.

I'm still struggling.
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jo on November 10, 2018, 09:16:51 PM
Jo, is it just an optical illusion or something on the drawings as the valve angles look quite a bit steeper than usual?

The valve angle is the standard 45 degrees. On a higher performance engine their would be a double angle but that was something we learnt about later than the design of this engine ;)

Retirement seems to suit you well.

I'm still struggling.

Thanks Zee, like you I am still struggling: We all have to relearn time management in our retirement. On one side is the need to enjoy ourselves, on the other the need to achieve things. I too am favouring the enjoying myself  :slap:

Jo


Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jasonb on November 11, 2018, 07:20:04 AM
Ta, must just be the camera angle as I thought they looked almost the same as the 55deg insert.

Looks like progress weather today, none of that hanging around with three tree fellas
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Roger B on November 11, 2018, 07:35:40 AM
Image 0981 seems to have 'fish eye' distortion as the tailstock also seems not to align with the chuck. Have you used bronze for the valve guides? It looks to have a pinkish tinge.
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jasonb on November 11, 2018, 08:01:59 AM
That would need a lot of fish eye and anyway the valve is in the middle so should be less distorted.

If I did not know better I would say the edge of the 55deg insert was used at the same setting for facing the end as that would give the result on the right. For the insert to have been used with the topslide swung over to 45deg the tool would need to be swung round as shown in the middle and if the edge of the 55deg insert were used to cut 45deg thn it would need swinging round evemn more as on the left.
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Vixen on November 11, 2018, 12:53:51 PM
Jason

I think you may be  looking at the roughing cut. All is not lost, the tool can still be set over for the 45 degree finishing cut. :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

What is the angle of the valve seat cutter?

Mike
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jasonb on November 11, 2018, 01:10:36 PM
Jo said she made the cutter at the same setting, I was just hoping she had not already cut the seats and definately hoping she had not cut the seats before pushing the guides back out of the head which it looks like has been done. At least they may go back in a bit straighter than the marks suggest:-[

There is nowhere for tailstock support now but if the insert were changed to a DCGT and light cuts taken it should be OK without
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jo on November 11, 2018, 01:13:13 PM
Just to keep you lot quiet  :ShakeHead:

Haven't you got a workshop to tidy up, something must be out of line in there  :stickpoke:

Jo
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jo on November 11, 2018, 01:17:37 PM
All of the valve seats are cut to the same depth using the stop on the pillar drill and it looks like I have the right amount of valve movement available  :ThumbsUp:

Those of you who were observant will have noticed that I used a bit of JB weld on the exhaust/inlet faces. This has been disguised using a bit of high temperature paint and as it is at the bottom it should not notice  :-X

Jo
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Vixen on November 11, 2018, 01:23:16 PM
Hi Jo

That all looks spot on, must have been the camera lens distorting things. I like the screwdriver slot to help with the valve lapping. :ThumbsUp: :ThumbsUp:

Mike
Title: Re: 45CC Wall Wizard
Post by: Jasonb on November 11, 2018, 01:26:02 PM
Look better now they have had the finishing cut ;)