Model Engine Maker

Engines => From Plans => Topic started by: geoff5269 on June 03, 2018, 12:18:26 PM

Title: Started, Fire King fire engine but is it a toy
Post by: geoff5269 on June 03, 2018, 12:18:26 PM
I have been thinking of building the Merryweather Fire King model originally published in Model Engineer in 1908 and now skilfully redrawn in metric by Julius.
What inspired me where the wonderful pictures of the originals and the model made Cherry Hill. but now I realise the 1908 plans are rather simplified and in some ways a little crude. As soon as I started building the frame and suspension I could see where the compromises had been made. What do you think?
There was a 2" scale model made by Mr. Jonas Francis a fireman who worked with an original and could measure it when needed, and then Cherry made her model in 3/4" scale from measuring this model so they both have very good heritage, and are removed from the plans in Model Engineer 1908
I  suppose there will be a lot of redesigning or just accept it for what it is.
Here are some pics to illustrate.
Geoff
Title: Re: Started, Fire King fire engine but is it a toy
Post by: Steamer5 on June 03, 2018, 01:21:13 PM
Hi Geoff,
 Cant really help, but will be following along.
Its a pity that Ms Hill doesn't make her drawing available, understandable but I'm sure there would be a demand!

Cheers Kerrin
Title: Re: Started, Fire King fire engine but is it a toy
Post by: b.lindsey on June 03, 2018, 03:36:30 PM
Geoff, do you have access to plans other than the ones Julius did? Just trying to figure out what your choices are.

Bill
Title: Re: Started, Fire King fire engine but is it a toy
Post by: michaelr on June 03, 2018, 04:35:34 PM
You may have seen this thread on the Model Engineer forum it shows construction of a Fire King by a German member.

http://www.model-engineer.co.uk/forums/postings.asp?th=127994 (http://www.model-engineer.co.uk/forums/postings.asp?th=127994)


Mike.
Title: Re: Started, Fire King fire engine but is it a toy
Post by: geoff5269 on August 02, 2018, 11:56:55 AM
Yes I am still working on this project after a pause to make a new display cabinet for my other models, with so much time invested already I thought I had better carry on. So I have been making the wheels and trying to be a little more authentic than the original plans. I have done plenty of woodworking in the past so I don't mind tackling this but there are lots of pieces to make up a wheel. The small wheel is 95mm and the rear wheel is 127mm or 5" and has 16 spokes.
Rather than being mortised into a hub they are arranged around a central core and clamped between 2 plates and this seems to work very well.
I have some pics if you what to know more please ask.
Geoff
Title: Re: Started, Fire King fire engine but is it a toy
Post by: crueby on August 02, 2018, 02:06:27 PM
Beautiful job on the wheels!


 :popcorn:
Title: Re: Started, Fire King fire engine but is it a toy
Post by: Kim on August 02, 2018, 07:40:55 PM
Wow!  I'll say! That's some mighty fine wood working there on the wheels - 12 spokes and 16 spokes.  That's a lot of fine joinery work there.
Very pretty!
Kim
Title: Re: Started, Fire King fire engine but is it a toy
Post by: geoff5269 on August 12, 2018, 08:43:05 PM
I've been working hard this week to complete the suspension and steering which has been the most challenging items so far, especially the king pins which are very 3 dimensional. but I got there and have a rolling chassis. There's still a lot of tinkering to do but I am pleased to get this far.
Geoff
Title: Re: Started, Fire King fire engine but is it a toy
Post by: b.lindsey on August 12, 2018, 08:50:55 PM
Looks amazing Geoff. You are making some good progress!!

Bill
Title: Re: Started, Fire King fire engine but is it a toy
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 12, 2018, 09:17:48 PM
Looking great.

I'm curious about the leaf spring. Is that made from solid? And if so, how did you make it appear to be made from individual pieces?
Title: Re: Started, Fire King fire engine but is it a toy
Post by: Dave Otto on August 12, 2018, 09:24:22 PM
Looks very nice Geoff!


Dave
Title: Re: Started, Fire King fire engine but is it a toy
Post by: geoff5269 on August 13, 2018, 12:29:54 PM
Zeeprogrammer
I thought about making proper springs and bought some spring steel for clocks but found it difficult to work with, so I decided to cut from solid Ali as in the original plans. I used a engraving cutter and mounted the blanks on a jig to get the radius needed. I only have this one picture.
Also I'm looking ahead for the driving chain in scale size and all I can think of is the chain used in Sturmey Archer gears, but I need a long length.
Geoff
Title: Re: Started, Fire King fire engine but is it a toy
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 13, 2018, 01:51:05 PM
Thanks Geoff  :ThumbsUp:
Title: Re: Started, Fire King fire engine but is it a toy
Post by: fumopuc on August 13, 2018, 08:30:40 PM
Hi Geoff,  very nice.
Title: Re: Started, Fire King fire engine but is it a toy
Post by: crueby on August 13, 2018, 09:37:57 PM
Some of the robotics places have chain, like bike chain links, down to fairly small sizes, what pitch (pin to pin) do you need for it?
Title: Re: Started, Fire King fire engine but is it a toy
Post by: zeeprogrammer on August 13, 2018, 10:50:01 PM
 :Lol: I kind of figured Chris would chime in here. He's been looking at chain for his project.

Geoff is in the UK and I don't doubt chain will be found.
Title: Re: Started, Fire King fire engine but is it a toy
Post by: crueby on August 13, 2018, 11:22:27 PM
Yup, Dan pointed me at some nice heavy oval link chain, and I have found good bike style chain too.
Title: Re: Started, Fire King fire engine but is it a toy
Post by: b.lindsey on August 14, 2018, 12:27:08 AM
As I recall, Mc Master has some stainless chain down to .187" pitch but it's pricey as gold and may not help in the UK.

Bill
Title: Re: Started, Fire King fire engine but is it a toy
Post by: Jo on August 14, 2018, 04:59:27 AM
Geoff do you know what pitch size you need for the chain? Simply Bearing stock simplex roller chains down to 6mm pitch off the shelf: https://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/Engineering-Parts-Chains,-Links,-Sprockets-&-Platewheels-Roller-Chains-Simplex-Roller-Chains-BS-European-Standard-Simplex-Chains/c4713_5487_5488_5489_6103/index.html

Renold's do 4mm pitch as a standard size (Bogstandard had some kicking around in his spares as I have just found a couple that size he let me have ;) ) I recall Cherry makes her own chains for her models  ::)

If you want to go really tiny then think about Pocket watch fusee verge chains  ;)

Jo
Title: Re: Started, Fire King fire engine but is it a toy
Post by: geoff5269 on August 14, 2018, 11:42:43 AM
Hi Jo
Thanks for you interest in finding a small chain, I had another look at some pictures of original engines and scaled the chain pitch to around 1/4" so it will not be to difficult to find. When you first start searching you have to find the right description to take you in the right direction. I have found some on ebay and will get that as a trial to see how it looks.  My model will be a combination of ideas from the original and the plans from Julius modified by what I think I can do.
Geoff
Title: Re: Started, Fire King fire engine but is it a toy
Post by: kvom on August 14, 2018, 12:13:38 PM
The very fine ditch digging machines shown at NAMES this year was scaled to the smallest size roller chain the builder could find.  I can't imagine making chain that small.
Title: Re: Started, Fire King fire engine but is it a toy
Post by: geoff5269 on August 21, 2018, 11:18:58 AM
Here's an update on the chain, The smallest practical size that easily available is 6mm pitch and cost approx. 6.00 a meter and I have now made my first attempt at making a sprocket, which is interesting in itself, I just wanted to see how this would join up with the wheel and what space is needed.
I was also pleased to make up a small belt sander from a handheld powerfile I got for 25.00 on ebay. I have wanted a belt sander for a while but have not got much spare bench space. I might do a separate thread on my homemade sanders.
Geoff
Title: Re: Started, Fire King fire engine but is it a toy
Post by: derekwarner on August 21, 2018, 11:42:10 AM
SPD-SI in the US supply the 0.1875" pitch stainless chain, pinions & sprockets......[sprockets can easily be modified & handy sizing for scale work]..... Derek

http://www.sdp-si.com/products/Chains-and-Sprockets/index.php
Title: Re: Started, Fire King fire engine but is it a toy
Post by: geoff5269 on August 31, 2018, 08:26:13 PM
Thanks for your interest in the chain, anything smaller is very costly so I will see how it looks for now. I've made some new mounts for the leaf springs as I felt these were the parts most out of step with the original, also I would say to anyone contemplating building this to think about making the bolts smaller than the plans say as again they can seem oversize.
Geoff